Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:22 am
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
There is no Theravāda without Abhidhamma. I'm not a hardcore ābhidhammika by any means, but without some recourse to these early exegetical treatises there is very little possibility of ever getting it right.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:46 am
Title: Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism
Content:
Not irrational at all. Non-apperceptive absorptions are states wherein there is no possibility of development. If one isn't already at a very advanced stage then by entering non-apperceptive absorptions one is arresting any possibility of development. Thus, it is very prudent to heed the commentarial tradition's advice and extinguish as many levels of fetters as possible before engaging in any non-apperceptive samādhi.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:38 am
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
It's been demonstrated to you time and again that there is nothing Buddhist about jhāna devoid of vipassanā, but you're very determined to not acknowledge it.


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:35 am
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
All that's out of the bag is your drawing fallacious conclusions.


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:20 am
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
I merely wrote "concomitant" instead of "associated." My mistake. At any rate, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī Cittuppādakaṇḍa Lokuttarakusala Suddhikapaṭipadā explicitly equates the discernment faculty (paññindriya) with the dhamma-discrimination factor of awakening (dhammavicayasambojjhaṅga) as a supramundane dhamma at the time of attaining the noble path via supramundane jhāna. And the Mahāniddesa equates awakening (bodhi) with gnosis of the four paths (catūsu maggesu ñāṇa), the faculty of discernment (paññindriya), the strength of discernment (paññābala), the dhamma-discrimination factor of awakening (dhammavicayasambojjhaṅga), investigation (vīmaṃsā), clear seeing (vipassanā), and right view (sammādiṭṭhi). No back reading of anything.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:30 am
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
One who practices sammāsamādhi instead of asaññisamādhi learns the difference between apperception (saññā) and thought (vitakka). It is apperception which differentiates, not thought.

And this relates to the main issue: Meditation which is specifically Buddhist is qualified by the presence of vipassanā. This is explicitly stated in the Theravāda, Sarvāstivāda, and Sautrāntika treatises already cited in this thread. And this is why the Mahāvihāra commentarial tradition can maintain that rūpāvacarajjhāna is not essential for awakening. Jhāna devoid of vipassanā isn't an essential dhamma of Theravāda or Sthaviravāda Buddhism.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:54 am
Title: Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better
Content:
The Vimuttimagga may not be a Mahāvihāra work, but it is a Theravāda work. Ven. Arahā Upatissa, the author of the Vimuttimagga, was knowledgeable of and quotes from the Uppaṭipāṭika Sutta, the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, the Vibhaṅga, and the Peṭakopadesa. All of these are Theravāda texts.

There are numerous texts such as these which may not be Mahāvihāra works, but they are Theravāda texts. These Yogāvacara teachings were still being practiced in Sri Lanka, Cambodia, and Thailand as recently as the 20th century, and it's possible that they may still be alive in some form somewhere in Cambodia or Thailand today.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:04 pm
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
Yes, the seven factors of awakening are a model of the conditioned process explaining how right mindfulness, right effort/right exertion, and right samādhi are to be developed and integrated, optimally culminating in the purity of mindfulness (fourth jhāna). 

But dhamma-vicaya as a factor of awakening is also considered to be synonymous with discernment (paññā), right view (sammādiṭṭhi), clear seeing (vipassanā), and awakening (bodhi). This is stated in the Mahāniddesa and the Abhidhammapiṭaka. Therefore, dhamma-vicaya is said to be present at the time of attaining the noble paths and fruitions.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:27 pm
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
Yes, it would be preferable to rely on the teachings. As for the Kathāvatthu controversy, it doesn't entail accepting Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna theory either. The sense faculties don't blackout every time one engages in thought. The six consciousnesses are nominal designations. As MN 38 Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta tells us, "Consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises." And so there is a difference between simply attending to a mental object (nimitta) via mental consciousness, and the formless attainments wherein the mind is totally isolated from the five sense faculties. In commentarial terms, attending exclusively to a cognitive representation/mental object already occurs at the stage of access samādhi. Thus, the engagement is exclusively that of the apperception of the counterpart representation via mental consciousness. The difference between access samādhi and and the first jhāna is the degree of stability of the jhāna factors. The difference between the first jhāna and the formless attainments is indicated in both the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga when they discuss the formless attainments and mention Aḷāra Kālāma not seeing or hearing the five-hundred carts passing by when abiding in a formless attainment.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:17 pm
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:36 pm
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
All of your nonsensical qualms have been addressed in detail previously. Certainly, ignoring the Tipiṭaka is your choice. Good luck with that "jhāna" devoid of comprehension. I trust that such a "jhāna" will result in a long rest in a non-perceptive realm as an asaññasatta.



All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:46 pm
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
Dhammasaṅgaṇī 1027:
What phenomena are expansive (mahaggatā)?

There are skillful and neither-skillful-nor-unskillful phenomena of the form sphere (rūpāvacarā) and the formless sphere (arūpāvacarā), the feeling aggregate, recognition aggregate, fabrications aggregate, and consciousness aggregate; these phenomena are expansive.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:40 pm
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
Are you now suggesting that supramundane jhāna occurs without dhammavicaya? That too, would be quite impossible. The presence of dhammavicaya, just like the presence of sammādiṭṭhi, etc., does not require vitakka or vicāra.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:36 am
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
They are the same thing. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:17 am
Title: Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism
Content:
I wouldn't disagree. I'm in favor of a text-critical approach, but one that is inclusive of the entire Tipiṭaka, as well as the commentaries, and non-Pāḷi Sthaviravāda sources. One example would be some of Ven. Anālayo's writings. Another would be the methodology of our fellow DW member Dmytro.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:46 am
Title: Re: The Commentaries are unreliable: I know better
Content:
I have no interest in discussing the commentaries, especially within this particular sub-forum. Some discussion has occurred on this thread:

Reliability of Mahāvihāra Commentaries?... Right View.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:34 am
Title: Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism
Content:
I guess if one only accepts the suttas then they are some sort of modern Pāḷi suttantika.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:28 am
Title: Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism
Content:
The teachings of both these venerables fit nicely within the parameters of the Tipiṭaka. Ajahn Chah's colloquial style shouldn't be mistaken for a lack of understanding of Theravāda dhamma.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:16 am
Title: Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism
Content:
All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:41 am
Title: Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism
Content:
The commentaries and the Visuddhimagga are not canonical. Moreover, the commentaries do not present a homogeneous doctrine. It's not uncommon to find multiple opinions presented regarding a particular canonical passage, etc. It's also not uncommon to find quite dubious etymologies of particular terms and an obvious lack of understanding of canonical metaphors, and so on. This is due to the commentaries being authored by people separated from the historical, geographical, and cultural situation of the early Buddhist community. This has been well documented by a number of translators and scholars. Therefore, while the commentaries are also important, they aren't of the same caliber as the Tipiṭaka. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:10 pm
Title: Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism
Content:
Well, the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka is the Theravāda Canon. And it's the Theravāda Canon for a reason. The treatises of the Khuddakanikāya and the Abhidhammapiṭaka present the parameters of the Theravāda as a unique doctrinal school (vāda). These are the "baseline" doctrines which distinguish the Theravāda from the other Sthaviravāda and non-Sthaviravāda schools. To dismiss most or all of these Canonical doctrinal teachings is to reject the Theravāda as a vāda. When this is done we often see the Suttapiṭaka -- usually without a comprehensive survey of the entire Suttapiṭaka -- being used to justify all sorts of pet theories. This creates a wild west situation where almost anything goes. Just find a sutta or two to justify one's pet theory and this makes one's interpretation is just as valid as any other.... This is quite an ill-conceived and unfortunate approach to Buddhist hermeneutics.

This isn't to say that text critical analysis is entirely unjustified. But to limit text critical analysis just to the sutta strata of received tradition and use this methodology to dismiss the abhidhamma strata of received tradition is problematic for a number of reasons. It fails to acknowledge just how indebted we all are to the entirety of the canonical, para-canonical, and commentarial texts for our understanding of Pāḷi as a language. It also implies (and is sometimes explicitly stated) that the compilers of the Abhidhammapiṭaka had already lost the realization of the dhamma within one or two hundred years of the Buddha's parinibbāna. These are just two of many faults and dubious assumptions which could be mentioned. IMO the bar should be set higher.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:00 pm
Title: Re: Australian Brahmic Buddhism
Content:
Ven. Brahmavamso's explicit contradiction (and tacit rejection) of the doctrines contained in the Canonical Theravāda Abhidhammapiṭaka and major parts of the Canonical Theravāda Khuddakanikāya, and Ven. Sujato's explicit rejection of the same doctrines, leaves very little "Theravāda" in what they are presenting. The doctrines contained in the Theravāda Abhidhammapiṭaka and Theravāda Khuddakanikāya texts such as the Paṭisambhidāmagga are what constitute the Theravāda as a unique doctrinal school (vāda). These treatises are all specific to the Theravāda. They have no parallel counterparts even amongst the other Sthaviravāda schools such as the Sarvāstivāda. Therefore, whatever it is that Ven. Brahmavamso and and Ven. Sujato, et al, are teaching, it cannot be called Theravāda. To call it Theravāda renders the designation quite meaningless.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:16 am
Title: Re: Why is there so much disagreement?
Content:
I would venture to guess that commonalities and agreements are generally far more prevalent than disagreements. If I replied with affirmation to every post that I agreed with, I'd be very busy. As already indicated by some of the above replies, the perception of disharmony may arise because points of disagreement often generate more energetic discussions and more diverse responses.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:29 am
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Ven. Ñāṇananda is specifically referring to saṅkhāras connected to the influxes/outflows (āsavas). This is in keeping with the canonical texts. Moreover, his teacher, Ven. Ñāṇārāma, states that the supramundane path-consciousness of stream-entry is supramundane jhāna which includes the presence of the jhāna factors. In his Seven Stages of Purification &amp; the Insight Knowledges he states:
At whatever moment he attains the supramundane path, that path-consciousness comes to be reckoned as a jhāna in itself, since it has some affinity with the factors proper to jhānas, such as the first jhāna. What are known as transcendental meditations in Buddhism are these supramundane levels of concentration within the reach of the pure insight meditator.

This is in keeping with the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, where the supramundane jhāna which occurs at the moment of stream-entry includes the jhāna factors and the five faculties and various other saṅkhāras necessary for the presence of right view and the other components of the noble path.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:12 pm
Title: Re: A Heretical Thought.
Content:
I would add that just suppressing unwanted urges or conflicting emotions (kilesa-s) is not a very effective tool in the long term (I think this may be what you are implying in this thread?). Whatever is being suppressed has a tendency to leak out in other ways -- sometimes quite unexpected ways. Therefore, at some point we have to acknowledge and begin working directly with those undesirable aspects of ourselves. Working directly with the underlying factors which fuel our habitual thoughts and actions. This takes a lot of commitment and dedication to the process of actually walking the path in a realistic way. In short, we have to be very honest with ourselves if we want to be authentic. This is where a teacher can be an invaluable aid. The simple fact of the matter is that we are not always in the best position to be able to recognize and acknowledge the sources of our own difficulties. We're often too close and too involved in the habitual patterns to be able to see our own biases operating. But with the help of a skillful teacher, and plenty of time on the cushion, we can learn to see how our mind works with a more panoramic perspective.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:27 pm
Title: Re: A Heretical Thought.
Content:
Well, the general sense what these expressions are getting at is to let go of and abandon what has already been appropriated, which is the five clinging aggregates (pañcupādānakkhandhā). In the context of the four noble truths -- which is the meta-structure of the entire dhamma -- the five clinging aggregates are the truth of unsatisfactoriness. The truth of unsatisfactoriness is to be fully understood (dukkha pariññeyya). Craving, which is the origin of unsatisfactoriness, is to be abandoned (dukkhasamudaya pahātabba). The cessation of craving, which is the cessation of unsatisfactoriness, is to be realized (dukkhanirodha sacchikātabba). And the path, which is the way leading to the cessation of unsatisfactoriness, is to be developed (dukkhanirodhagāminīpaṭipadā bhāvetabba).

And as you know, it is to this end that all aspects of ethical conduct, meditation, and discernment, are directed. And so, while someone may at times need to actively reject the occurrence of conflicted mental qualities or the impulsive urge to engage in unskillful actions, this is not really the more "advanced" meaning of letting go. The more advanced or mature development would be of not picking up in the first place, as you suggest. (Sometimes easier said than done!)

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:04 pm
Title: Re: A Heretical Thought.
Content:
The term is pajahatha: "Whatever is not yours abandon/let go of it.

Some other related terms:

vossagga: letting go
pahāna: abandoning
paṭinissagga: release, relinquishment
paṭinissaggānupassanā: contemplation of release/relinquishment
atammayatā: nonfashioning


All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:53 am
Title: Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Content:
I suspect that there may be a fair bit that we can agree on.  

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:42 am
Title: Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Content:
Consciousness is impermanent. Therefore, any qualities of consciousness are also impermanent.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 am
Title: Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Content:
What is being referred to is the lucidity, clarity, and suppleness of mind. When one meditates a lot the mind can become incredibly lucid and clear. This vivid presence of mind can be mistaken for an unchanging quality. But the mind must necessarily change along with its perceptions. If the mind didn't change along with its perceptions then either: 

(a) the mind would forever be frozen exclusively perceiving one unchanging object, or

(b) the mind would continuously perceive every single object cognized. 

If we take visual consciousness for example: If you turn your head from right to left (with eyes open), your entire visual field changes as your head moves. When your head is to the left you are no longer cognizant of what was cognized in the beginning position to the right. Therefore, both (a) and (b) above are refuted, and we can correctly discern that visual consciousness changes along with its perceptions. And what is true for visual consciousness is also true for the other five consciousnesses. There can be no unchanging, permanent consciousness.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:15 pm
Title: Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Content:
What I'm suggesting is that such terminology is also contingent and provisional. It would be an error to try to construct a metaphysical headtrip out of such terms. Ajahn Chah:
Question: Is this mind you are talking about called the ‘Original Mind’?

Ajahn Chah’s Answer: What do you mean?

Question: It seems as if you are saying there is something else outside of the conventional body-mind (the five khandhas). Is there something else? What do you call it?

Answer: There isn’t anything and we don’t call it anything – that’s all there is to it! Be finished with all of it. Even the knowing doesn’t belong to anybody, so be finished with that, too! Consciousness is not an individual, not a being, not a self, not an other, so finish with that – finish with everything! There is nothing worth wanting! It’s all just a load of trouble. When you see clearly like this then everything is finished.

Question: Could we not call it the ‘Original Mind’?

Answer: You can call it that if you insist. You can call it whatever you like, for the sake of conventional reality. But you must understand this point properly. This is very important. If we didn’t make use of conventional reality we wouldn’t have any words or concepts with which to consider actual reality – Dhamma. This is very important to understand.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:46 pm
Title: Re: paññā vs ñāṇa is there a difference?
Content:
It all depends upon the context, but usually ñāṇa is considered the insight knowledge which results from practice, i.e. which results from discernment obtained through meditative development (bhāvanāmayā paññā). These types of ñāṇa include the gnosis and vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana), the gnosis of nibbāna (nibbānañāṇa), gnosis of elimination [of the āsava-s] (khayeñāṇa), and so on.


There are a number of related terms derived from the verb root - √ñā (to know):

saññā: recognition, apperception, perception, cognition

viññāṇa: consciousness, cognition

paññā: discernment

ñāṇa: gnosis, knowledge

abhiññā: higher gnosis; six types of higher gnosis (chalabhiññā)

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:02 pm
Title: Re: paññā vs ñāṇa is there a difference?
Content:
The way ñāṇa is used in a Buddhist context, it is usually considered as the knowledge/gnosis which arises as a result of paññā. Thus, it is fruitional. There are three levels of discernment (paññā): discernment obtained through hearing (sutamayā paññā), discernment obtained through reflection (cintāmayā paññā), and discernment obtained through meditative development (bhāvanāmayā paññā). There are many types of ñāṇa mentioned in the suttas and canonical ābhidhammika treatises. These knowledges are obtained through the engagement and refinement of the three types of paññā.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:43 pm
Title: Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Content:
This is translated from a transcription of a tape recording by Ajahn Dune, which has been identified as him reading a translation of Chinese Chan patriarch Huangbo Xiyun's Chung-ling Record. Huangbo's teachings were translated into Thai by Ajahn Buddhadasa, not directly from the Chinese but from the English translation of John Blofeld.

As for the view expressed there, I'd suggest that it's far more skillful to follow the advise of the Buddha as recorded in the Pāḷi Canon. This will safeguard against engaging in pointless mental proliferation (papañca). Suttanipāta 5.6:
[Upasiva:] He who has reached the end: Does he not exist, or is he for eternity free from dis-ease? Please, sage, declare this to me as this phenomenon has been known by you.

[The Buddha:] One who has reached the end has no criterion by which anyone would say that — for him it doesn't exist. When all phenomena are done away with, all means of speaking are done away with as well.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:03 pm
Title: Re: Does illegal downloading violate the 2nd precept?
Content:
Yes, illegal downloading is both illegal and a break of the second precept.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:36 pm
Title: Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!
Content:
Merely a bit of jocular frivolity. But point taken. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:28 pm
Title: Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Content:
There are plenty of other suttas which, if properly considered, safeguard against such notions. 

Ven. Ṭhānissaro's latent fire theory really cannot be sustained. The fire metaphor most commonly refers to the three fires of passion, aggression, and delusion. If the Indian Buddhist understanding of fire was really that an extinguished fire goes into a "latent state," then these three fires could re-combust within an arahant's mind as long as there is fuel remaining (i.e. saupādisesa nibbānadhātu: nibbāna element with fuel remaining). Of course, this would render nibbāna quite meaningless.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:08 pm
Title: Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!
Content:



Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:41 pm
Title: Re: SN 35.23 Sabba Sutta: The All
Content:
As for anidassana, in this context I'm liking the translation as "non-illustrative" or "non-indicative." "Non-illustrative" in the sense of the term as used in MN 21 Kakacūpama Sutta: ākāso arūpī anidassano, the sky is formless and non-illustrative. "Non-indicative" in the sense of the term as used in the Abhidhammapiṭaka, where the applications of mindfulness. etc., are said to be anidassana. The sense here being that they are not indicative of defilements, and so on.

Also cf. Ven. Ñāṇananda, Nibbāna Sermon 07:
Now viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is a reference to the nature of the released consciousness of an arahant. It does not reflect anything. To be more precise, it does not reflect a nāma-rūpa, or name-and-form. An ordinary individual sees a nāma-rūpa, when he reflects, which he calls 'I' and 'mine'. It is like the reflection of that dog, which sees its own delusive reflection in the water. A non-arahant, upon reflection, sees name-and-form, which however he mistakes to be his self. With the notion of 'I' and 'mine' he falls into delusion with regard to it. But the arahant's consciousness is an unestablished consciousness.

We have already mentioned in previous sermons about the established consciousness and the unestablished consciousness. A non-arahant's consciousness is established on name-and-form. The unestablished consciousness is that which is free from name-and-form and is unestablished on name-and-form. The established consciousness, upon reflection, reflects name-and-form, on which it is established, whereas the unestablished consciousness does not find a name-and-form as a reality. The arahant has no attachments or entanglements in regard to name-and-form. In short, it is a sort of penetration of name-and-form, without getting entangled in it. This is how we have to unravel the meaning of the expression anidassana viññāṇa.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:16 am
Title: Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!
Content:
Tilt has a life?...


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:35 am
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Sorry, but your entire premise is lacking both well reasoned consideration and canonical support. The Paṭisambhidāmagga:
How is it that the discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa)?

Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), doubt (vicikicchā), and mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbataparāmāsa).... This discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....

He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.

And so on for the fetters which are terminated on the remaining three paths. These gnoses of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa-s) are also called gnoses of the bliss of liberation (vimuttisukha ñāṇa-s). The Paṭisambhidāmagga:
With the stream-entry path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

(1) identity view,
(2) doubt,
(3) mistaken adherence to rules and duty,
(4) the underlying tendency of view,
(5) the underlying tendency of doubt.

With the once-returner path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

(6) the gross fetter of passion for sensual pleasure,
(7) the gross fetter of aversion,
(8) the gross underlying tendency of passion for sensual pleasure,
(9) the gross underlying tendency of aversion.

With the non-returner path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

(10) the secondary fetter of passion for sensual pleasure,
(11) the secondary fetter of aversion,
(12) the secondary underlying tendency of passion for sensual pleasure,
(13) the secondary underlying tendency of aversion.

With the arahant path, gnosis of the bliss of liberation arises due to the abandoning and cutting off of:

(14) passion for form [existence],
(15) passion for formless [existence],
(16) conceit,
(17) restlessness,
(18) ignorance,
(19) the underlying tendency of conceit,
(20) the underlying tendency of passion for existence,
(21) the underlying tendency of ignorance.

And none of these extinguishments require the attainment of cessation of apperception and feeling. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:44 pm
Title: Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?
Content:
Indeed.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:35 pm
Title: Re: Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!
Content:
IMO Dhamma Wheel is healthy and functioning well. The moderators are doing an outstanding job with an appropriately light touch. That said, I don't spend much time reading threads or posts which I consider to be trivial and/or frivolous.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:58 am
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
You're drawing a fallacious consequence. At any rate, if you are not willing to discuss the subject of vipassanāñāṇa-s in ābhidhammika terms then there is no point in discussing the subject any further.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:25 pm
Title: Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas
Content:
Indeed. Practice is essential. Personally, I consider myself extremely fortunate to be able to devote all of my time and energy to practice (with a modicum of study included).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:45 pm
Title: Re: concentration on the signless
Content:
The Visuddhimagga uses the Paṭisambhidāmagga terminology. In the Paṭisambhidāmagga the triad is referred to as three contemplations (suññatānupassanā, animittānupassanā, appaṇihitānupassanā), three abidings (suññatā vihāra, animittā vihāra, appaṇihitā vihāra), and three deliverances (suññatā vimokkha, animittā vimokkha, appaṇihitā vimokkha). It's said that the contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassanā) results in the signless deliverance, the contemplation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhānupassanā) results in the undirected deliverance, and the contemplation of selflessness (anattānupassanā) results in the emptiness deliverance. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:50 pm
Title: Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas
Content:
Of course this can be a problem. Following the gradual training will eliminate this problem if one is sufficiently committed to the practice. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:56 am
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
No it doesn't. Moreover, the Paṭisambhidāmagga is part of the Suttapiṭaka, and as already mentioned, it is the canonical source for the insight-gnoses. The Paṭisambhidāmagga includes in the stages of insight-gnosis the stage of contemplating the signlessness of the mind and mental factors. This is the supramundane jhāna of stream-entry:
Gnosis of contemplation of the signlessness (animittānupassanāñāṇa) of feeling... recognition... fabrications... consciousness... etc., is signless deliverance because it liberates from all signs.

And:
What is the ultimate meaning of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware?... Through the contemplation of signlessness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of signs.

It's essential to develop this vipassanā directly seeing the signlessness of all phenomena because the fetters occur in relation to phenomena. And the cessation of unsatisfactoriness also has to occur in relation to phenomena. This is the only way that liberation is possible. DN 22 Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta:
And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading &amp; cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, &amp; letting go of that very craving.

And where, when being abandoned, is this craving abandoned? And where, when ceasing, does it cease? Whatever is endearing &amp; alluring in terms of the world: that is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

And what is endearing &amp; alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing &amp; alluring in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas is endearing &amp; alluring in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:23 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Yes, well this misunderstanding isn't limited to contemporary English readers. But this is the fault of inadequate view, not the terminology used.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:18 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
What is a degeneration of the dispensation is mistaking momentary experiences for adequate indications of stream-entry. The only adequate and reliable indication of the fruition of stream-entry is the complete termination of the first three fetters.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:24 am
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Why do you have a problem with the distinction between worldly and supramundane jhāna? It in no way entails the consequence of the "3 mind-moment path." 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:29 pm
Title: Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas
Content:
These are valuable teachers too.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:20 pm
Title: Re: Not thinking vs Thinking
Content:
Good instructions.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:14 pm
Title: Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas
Content:
There are three levels of discernment: discernment obtained through listening (sutamayā paññā), discernment obtained through reflection (cintāmayā paññā), and discernment obtained through meditative development (bhāvanāmayā paññā). All three need to be engaged and refined. SN 20.7 Āṇi Sutta:
Thus should you train yourselves: “When those discourses uttered by the Tathāgata that are profound, deep in meaning, supramundane, connected with emptiness, are being recited, we will be eager to listen to them, will lend an ear, will set our minds to understand them; we will regard those teachings as worth studying and mastering.”

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:47 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Indeed.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:33 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
As Kenshou indicated, your entire premise of the noble paths and fruitions is based on commentaries written in the 20th century. If they are actually saying what you are suggesting then they are not accurately presenting the stages of insight-gnosis as presented in the Suttapiṭaka, Abhidhammapiṭaka, and Paṭisambhidāmagga.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:07 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Dhammas "are merely the modes in which the flux of material and mental life has been arrested and split up in the realm of ideation."

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:20 pm
Title: Re: Over confidence in our understanding of Suttas
Content:
The suttas prescribe the means to be employed, and describe the stages of the path to be developed. But we have to take up the practice injunctions and follow them with persistence and commitment before they will bear any fruit. And here teachers are helpful. Nevertheless, the onus is on each of us to compare what teachers say with what is presented in the canon, in order to check the veracity of these sayings and interpretations with the dhamma and vinaya. DN 16 Mahāparinibbāna Sutta:
And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."

Thus, we are each responsible for continually developing our understanding and our practice. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:48 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Precisely. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:55 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Conditioned arising in its forward sequence is always a description of deluded cognition. When rooted in ignorance and craving, any experience automatically includes all of the first eleven links. That is, for the worldling there is always ignorance, contact, craving, grasping, becoming, and birth, which is the birth of a "being" (satta).

This sets up identity and alienation -- i.e. the struggle for ego survival -- of "my being" in "the world." Whenever there is "a being" in "the world" there is going to arise circumstances of "my being" vs. "the world."

When the forward and reverse sequences of conditioned arising are penetrated the entire deluded cognitive and conflicted affective edifice of the forward sequence of dependent arising immediately collapses like a house of cards. This is why the mind of a learner engaged in practice is designated as measureless (appamāṇa). But this does not mean that there is a non-cognitive blackout. Non-cognitive absorptions are never considered supramundane. Ven. Ñāṇananda, Nibbāna Sermons:
The cessation of the six sense-bases does not mean that one does not see anything. What one sees then is voidness. It is an in-‘sight’. He gives expression to it with the words suñño loko, “void is the world.”

In Concept and Reality Ven. Ñāṇananda equates the experience of non-indicative/non-manifestative consciousness (anidassana viññāṇa) with the fruition-gnosis samādhi (aññāphala samādhi) of an arahant. AN 9.37 describes this samādhi as follows:
Sister, the concentration whereby -- neither pressed down nor forced back, nor with fabrication kept blocked or suppressed -- still as a result of release, contented as a result of standing still, and as a result of contentment one is not agitated: This concentration is said by the Blessed One to be the fruit of gnosis.

On page 61 of Concept and Reality he discusses this samādhi:
The unique feature of this samādhi is its very fluxional character. In it there is no such fixity as to justify a statement that it 'depends on' (nissāya) some object (ārammaṇa) as its support -- hence the frustration of gods and men who seek out the basis of the Tathāgata's consciousness. Normally, the jhānas are characterized by an element of fixity on which consciousness finds a footing or a steadying point. It is on this very fixity that the illusion of the ego thrives. In the above jhāna of the emancipated one, however, the ego has melted away in the fire of wisdom which sees the cosmic process of arising and cessation. Not only has the concept "I" (papañca par excellence) undergone combustion, but it has also ignited the data of sensory experience in their entirety. Thus in this jhāna of the Arahant, the world of concepts melts away in the intuitional bonfire of universal impermanence.

And on p. 67:
With his penetrative insight the Arahant sees through the concepts. Now, an object of perception (ārammaṇa) for the worldling is essentially something that is brought into focus -- something he is looking at. For the Arahant, however, all concepts have become transparent to such a degree in that all-encompassing vision, that their boundaries together with their umbra and penumbra have yielded to the radiance of wisdom. This, then, is the significance of the word ‘anantaṃ’ (endless, infinite). Thus the paradoxically detached gaze of the contemplative sage as he looks through concepts is one which has no object (ārammaṇa) as the point of focus for the worldling to identify it with.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:34 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
It's a translation of lokuttara, which is defined in the Paṭisambhidāmagga Treatise on the Supramundane as follows:
What dhammas are supramundane? 

The four applications of mindfulness, the four right endeavors, the four pathways of achievement, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors of awakening, the eightfold path, and the four noble paths, the four ascetic fruitions, and nibbāna. 

In what sense are they supramundane?

They cross from the world, thus they are supramundane. They cross over from the world, thus they are supramundane.


All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:25 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
When we are talking about the noble paths and fruitions we employ designations, but these are merely designations (paññattimatta). Whether the cognitions of the paths and fruitions attend to signs (i.e. when engaged in the supramundane applications of mindfulness) or discern the signlessness of phenomena (supramundane jhāna), those path and fruition cognitions are measureless (appamāṇa) and have measureless object-supports (appamāṇārammaṇa) and are non-indicative (anidassana), cf. Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga. Thus, they are all unincluded (apariyāpanna). And so, although we can employ designations such as "contact," etc., these designations are not ultimately established (paramatthasiddhi). They are merely designations (paññattimatta) employed for the purpose of explaining the path leading to the cessation of unsatisfactoriness. The raft is for crossing over, not for constructing philosophical systems.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:03 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Yes. In canonical abhidhamma terms, when one who has entered the stream is abiding in supramundane jhāna they discern the signlessness of phenomena which is equivalent to the reverse sequence of paṭiccasamuppāda. The penetration of paṭiccasamuppāda in both forward sequence (anuloma) and reverse sequence (paṭiloma) eliminates adherence to any mistaken views of existence and non-existence. When one who's entered the stream has developed supramundane jhāna sufficiently they realize the fruition of stream-entry (sotāpattiphala) which is the complete termination of the first three fetters (saṃyojanā).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:14 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
When all acquisitions have been released (i.e. sabbūpadhipaṭinissagga) there is no need to designate "contact." Udāna 2.4 (Ud 12):
Contacts make contact 
Dependent on acquisition. 
Where there is no acquisition,
What would contacts contact?

Explained with slightly different translation of terms in Ven. Ñāṇananda's Nibbāna Sermons:
In order to transcend the narrow point of view limited to the bases of sense contact or the six sense spheres and realize the state of Nibbāna indicated by the words viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ, "consciousness which is non-manifestative, endless, lustrous on all sides", one has to see the cessation of contact.

In a certain discourse in the Mucalindavagga of the Udāna, the Buddha has declared in a verse of uplift that the cessation of contact comes about only by doing away with that which brings about contact. The wandering ascetics of other sects grew jealous of the Buddha and his congregation of monks, because of their own loss of gain and honour, and began to hurl abuse on monks in the village and in the forest. A group of monks came and reported this to the Buddha. The Buddha's response to it was only a paean of joy. Udāna actually means a spontaneous utterance of joy, and the verse he uttered was such a one. But it embodied an instruction on Dhamma and a norm of Dhamma as well.

Gāme araññe sukhadukkhaphuṭṭho,
nev'attato no parato dahetha,
phusanti phassā upadhiṃ paṭicca,
Nirūpadhiṃ kena phuseyyum phassā.

In the first two lines we get an instruction:

"Touched by pain in village or in forest,
Think not in terms of oneself or others."

The reason for it is given in the norm of Dhamma which follows:

"Touches can touch one, because of assets,
How can touches touch him, who is asset-less?"

This is all what the Buddha uttered. From this we can glean another aspect of the significance of the terms sabbūpadhipaṭinissagga, relinquishment of all assets, and nirupadhi, the asset-less, used with reference to Nibbāna.

Also, Ven. Ñāṇavīra's Notes on Dhamma:
Phassa, 'contact', is defined as the coming together of the eye, forms, and eye-consciousness... But it is probably wrong to suppose that we must therefore understand the word phassa, primarily at least, as contact between these three things. So long as there is avijjā, all things (dhammā) are... inherently in subjection, they are appropriated, they are mine. This is the foundation of the notion that I am and that things are in contact with me. This contact between me and things is phassa. The ditthisampanna sees the deception, but the puthujjana accepts it at its face value and elaborates it into a relationship between himself and the world... But though the ditthisampanna is not deceived, yet until he becomes arahat the aroma of subjectivity hangs about all his experience.

All normal experience is dual: there are present (i) one's conscious six-based body (saviññānaka salāyatanika kāya), and (ii) other phenomena (namely, whatever is not one's body); and reflexion will show that, though both are objective in the experience, the aroma of subjectivity that attaches to the experience will naturally tend to be attributed to the body. In this way, phassa comes to be seen as contact between the conscious eye and forms—but mark that this is because contact is primarily between subject and object, and not between eye, forms, and eye-consciousness. This approach makes it possible to see in what sense, with the entire cessation of all illusion of 'I' and 'mine', there is phassanirodha in the arahat (where, though there are still, so long as he continues to live, both the conscious body and the other phenomena, there is no longer any appropriation).

But when (as commonly) phassa is interpreted as 'contact between sense-organ and sense-object, resulting in consciousness'—and its translation as '(sense-)impression' implies this interpretation—then we are at once cut off from all possibility of understanding phassanirodha in the arahat; for the question whether or not the eye is the subject is not even raised—we are concerned only with the eye as a sense-organ, and it is a sense-organ in puthujjana and arahat alike. Understanding of phassa now consists in accounting for consciousness starting from physiological (or neurological) descriptions of the sense-organs and their functioning. Consciousness, however, is not physiologically observable, and the entire project rests upon unjustifiable assumptions from the start. This epistemological interpretation of phassa misconceives the Dhamma as a kind of natural-science-cum-psychology that provides an explanation of things in terms of cause-and-effect.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:22 am
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Not sure if you're responding to claims that something remains after an arahant's death, i.e. nibbāna element with no fuel remaining (anupādisesa nibbānadhātu), or if you're suggesting that the noble paths and fruitions are non-cognitive "complete cessations" as Matheesha states. Regarding the latter, Ven. Ñāṇananda, Nibbāna Sermons:
The worldling discerns the world around him with the help of six narrow beams of light, namely the six sense-bases. When the superior lustre of wisdom arises, those six sense-bases go down. This cessation of the six sense bases could also be referred to as the cessation of name-and-form, nāmarūpanirodha, or the cessation of consciousness, viññāṇanirodha.

The cessation of the six sense-bases does not mean that one does not see anything. What one sees then is voidness. It is an in-‘sight’. He gives expression to it with the words suñño loko, “void is the world.”

In Concept and Reality Ven. Ñāṇananda equates the experience of non-indicative/non-manifestative consciousness (anidassana viññāṇa) with the fruition-gnosis samādhi (aññāphala samādhi) of an arahant. AN 9.37 describes this samādhi as follows:
Sister, the concentration whereby -- neither pressed down nor forced back, nor with fabrication kept blocked or suppressed -- still as a result of release, contented as a result of standing still, and as a result of contentment one is not agitated: This concentration is said by the Blessed One to be the fruit of gnosis.

On page 61 of Concept and Reality he discusses this samādhi:
The unique feature of this samādhi is its very fluxional character. In it there is no such fixity as to justify a statement that it 'depends on' (nissāya) some object (ārammaṇa) as its support -- hence the frustration of gods and men who seek out the basis of the Tathāgata's consciousness. Normally, the jhānas are characterized by an element of fixity on which consciousness finds a footing or a steadying point. It is on this very fixity that the illusion of the ego thrives. In the above jhāna of the emancipated one, however, the ego has melted away in the fire of wisdom which sees the cosmic process of arising and cessation. Not only has the concept "I" (papañca par excellence) undergone combustion, but it has also ignited the data of sensory experience in their entirety. Thus in this jhāna of the Arahant, the world of concepts melts away in the intuitional bonfire of universal impermanence.

And on p. 67:
With his penetrative insight the Arahant sees through the concepts. Now, an object of perception (ārammaṇa) for the worldling is essentially something that is brought into focus -- something he is looking at. For the Arahant, however, all concepts have become transparent to such a degree in that all-encompassing vision, that their boundaries together with their umbra and penumbra have yielded to the radiance of wisdom. This, then, is the significance of the word ‘anantaṃ’ (endless, infinite). Thus the paradoxically detached gaze of the contemplative sage as he looks through concepts is one which has no object (ārammaṇa) as the point of focus for the worldling to identify it with.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:11 pm
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
You've yet to provide any canonical support for this "complete cessation" notion of yours. Yet you seem insistent on repeating it ad nausiam....

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:32 pm
Title: Re: concentration on the signless
Content:
The Pāḷi is animitto samādhi. There are three samādhis mentioned in the Saṅgīti Sutta and a few other suttas: emptiness samādhi (suññatā samādhi), signless samādhi (animittā samādhi), and undirected samādhi (appaṇihitā samādhi). The status and place of these samādhis isn't clearly spelled out in the suttas, but it's clear that they are fruitional meditations and not to be equated with any of the four formless attainments or the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling.

In addition to the suttas already posted, MN 43 Mahāvedalla Sutta describes the signless liberation of mind (animittā cetovimutti) as follows:
What is the signless liberation of mind? There is the case where a monk, through not attending to all signs, enters and remains in the signless concentration of mind. Friend, this is said to be the signless liberation of mind.

MN 43 Mahāvedalla Sutta describes the emptiness liberation of mind (suññatā cetovimutti) as follows:
What is the emptiness liberation of mind? Here a monk goes to the forest, to the root of a tree, or to an empty place and reflects: 'This is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self.' Friend, this is said to be the emptiness liberation of mind.

The development of undirected samādhi (appaṇihitā samādhi) is described in SN 47.10 Bhikkhunūpassaya Sutta:
And how, Ānanda, is there development without direction (appaṇidhāya bhāvanā)?

Not directing his mind outwardly, a monk understands: 'My mind is not directed outwardly.' Then he understands: 'It is unconstricted after and before, liberated, undirected.' Then he further understands: 'I dwell contemplating the body in the body, ardent, fully aware, mindful; I am [experiencing] pleasure.'

Not directing his mind outwardly, a monk understands: 'My mind is not directed outwardly.' Then he understands: 'It is unconstricted after and before, liberated, undirected.' Then he further understands: 'I dwell contemplating feelings in feelings, ardent, fully aware, mindful; I am [experiencing] pleasure.'

Not directing his mind outwardly, a monk understands: 'My mind is not directed outwardly.' Then he understands: 'It is unconstricted after and before, liberated, undirected.' Then he further understands: 'I dwell contemplating mind in mind, ardent, fully aware, mindful; I am [experiencing] pleasure.'

Not directing his mind outwardly, a monk understands: 'My mind is not directed outwardly.' Then he understands: 'It is unconstricted after and before, liberated, undirected.' Then he further understands: 'I dwell contemplating phenomena in phenomena, ardent, fully aware, mindful; I am [experiencing] pleasure.'

It is in this way, Ānanda, that there is development without direction.

In the Abhidhammapiṭaka Dhammasaṅgaṇī these three samādhis are equated with supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna). Also, in the Paṭisambhidāmagga these supramundane jhānas are designated in terms of three contemplations (suññatānupassanā, animittānupassanā, appaṇihitānupassanā), three abidings (suññatā vihāra, animittā vihāra, appaṇihitā vihāra), and three deliverances (suññatā vimokkha, animittā vimokkha, appaṇihitā vimokkha). It's said that the contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassanā) results in the signless deliverance, the contemplation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhānupassanā) results in the undirected deliverance, and the contemplation of selflessness (anattānupassanā) results in the emptiness deliverance. For example:
When he gives attention as impermanent his mind emerges from the sign; his mind enters into the signless.... Gnosis of contemplation of the signlessness of form... feeling... recognition... fabrications... consciousness... etc., is signless deliverance because it liberates from all signs.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:15 am
Title: Re: Ven. Vimalaramsi on the Abhidhamma & the Visuddhi Magga
Content:
Ven. Ñāṇananda has primarily dealt with correcting mistaken notions regarding view. In The Mind Stilled: Nibbāna Sermon 01 he offers historical perspective on how this came about:
There is a popular belief that the commentaries are finally traceable to a miscellany of the Buddha word scattered here and there, as pakiṇṇakadesanā. But the true state of affairs seems to be rather different. Very often the commentaries are unable to say something conclusive regarding the meaning of deep suttas. So they simply give some possible interpretations and the reader finds himself at a loss to choose the correct one. Sometimes the commentaries go at a tangent and miss the correct interpretation. Why the commentaries are silent on some deep suttas is also a problem to modern day scholars. There are some historical reasons leading to this state of affairs in the commentaries.

In the Āṇisutta of the Nidānavagga in the Saṃyutta Nikāya we find the Buddha making certain prophetic utterances regarding the dangers that will befall the Sāsana in the future. It is said that in times to come, monks will lose interest in those deep suttas which deal with matters transcendental, that they would not listen to those suttas that have to do with the idea of emptiness, suññatā. They would not think it even worthwhile learning or pondering over the meanings of those suttas.

There is also another historical reason that can be adduced. An idea got deeply rooted at a certain stage in the Sāsana history that what is contained in the Sutta Piṭaka is simply the conventional teaching and so it came to imply that there is nothing so deep in these suttas. This notion also had its share in the present lack of interest in these suttas. According to Manorathapūraṇī, the Aṅguttara commentary, already at an early stage in the Sāsana history of Sri Lanka, there had been a debate between those who upheld the precept and those who stood for realization. And it is said that those who upheld the precept won the day. The final conclusion was that, for the continuity of the Sāsana, precept itself is enough, not so much the realization.

Of course the efforts of the reciter monks of old for the preservation of the precept in the midst of droughts and famines and other calamitous situations are certainly praiseworthy. But the unfortunate thing about it was this: the basket of the Buddha word came to be passed on from hand to hand in the dark, so much so that there was the risk of some valuable things slipping out in the process.

Also there have been certain semantic developments in the commentarial period, and this will be obvious to anyone searching for the genuine Dhamma. It seems that there had been a tendency in the commentarial period to elaborate even on some lucid words in the suttas, simply as a commentarial requirement, and this led to the inclusion of many complicated ideas. By too much overdrawing in the commentaries, the deeper meanings of the Dhamma got obscured.
These commentarial notions also had a significant impact on how meditation came to be defined and presented. Speaking on the very practical matter of how the Visuddhimagga jhānas bear no resemblance to how this essential component of practice is integrated into the sutta presentation of the noble eightfold path, Ven. Ṭhānissaro, in Wings to Awakening Part III F: Concentration &amp; Discernment states:
The role of jhāna as a condition for transcendent discernment is one of the most controversial issues in the Theravada tradition. Three basic positions have been advanced in modern writings. One, following the commentarial tradition, asserts that jhāna is not necessary for any of the four levels of Awakening and that there is a class of individuals — called "dry insight" meditators — who are "released through discernment" based on a level of concentration lower than that of jhāna. A second position, citing a passage in the Canon [AN 3.88] stating that concentration is mastered only on the level of non-returning, holds that jhāna is necessary for the attainment of non-returning and arahantship, but not for the lower levels of Awakening. The third position states that the attainment of at least the first level of jhāna is essential for all four levels of Awakening.

Evidence from the Canon supports the third position, but not the other two. As MN 117 points out, the attainment of stream-entry has eight factors, one of which is right concentration, defined as jhāna. In fact, according to this particular discourse, jhāna is the heart of the streamwinner's path. Second, there is no passage in the Canon describing the development of transcendent discernment without at least some skill in jhāna. The statement that concentration is mastered only on the level of non-returning must be interpreted in the light of the distinction between mastery and attainment. A streamwinner may have attained jhāna without mastering it; the discernment developed in the process of gaining full mastery over the practice of jhāna will then lead him/her to the level of non-returning. As for the term "released through discernment," MN 70 shows that it denotes people who have become arahants without experiencing the four formless jhānas. It does not indicate a person who has not experienced jhāna.

Part of the controversy over this question may be explained by the fact that the commentarial literature defines jhāna in terms that bear little resemblance to the canonical description. The Path of Purification — the cornerstone of the commentarial system — takes as its paradigm for meditation practice a method called kasiṇa, in which one stares at an external object until the image of the object is imprinted in one's mind. The image then gives rise to a countersign that is said to indicate the attainment of threshold concentration, a necessary prelude to jhāna. The text then tries to fit all other meditation methods into the mold of kasiṇa practice, so that they too give rise to countersigns, but even by its own admission, breath meditation does not fit well into the mold: with other methods, the stronger one's focus, the more vivid the object and the closer it is to producing a sign and countersign; but with the breath, the stronger one's focus, the harder the object is to detect. As a result, the text states that only Buddhas and Buddhas' sons find the breath a congenial focal point for attaining jhāna.

None of these assertions have any support in the Canon. Although a practice called kasiṇa is mentioned tangentially in some of the discourses, the only point where it is described in any detail [MN 121] makes no mention of staring at an object or gaining a countersign. If breath meditation were congenial only to Buddhas and their sons, there seems little reason for the Buddha to have taught it so frequently and to such a wide variety of people. If the arising of a countersign were essential to the attainment of jhāna, one would expect it to be included in the steps of breath meditation and in the graphic analogies used to describe jhāna, but it isn't. Some Theravādins insist that questioning the commentaries is a sign of disrespect for the tradition, but it seems to be a sign of greater disrespect for the Buddha — or the compilers of the Canon — to assume that he or they would have left out something absolutely essential to the practice.

All of these points seem to indicate that what jhāna means in the commentaries is something quite different from what it means in the Canon. Because of this difference we can say that the commentaries are right in viewing their type of jhāna as unnecessary for Awakening, but Awakening cannot occur without the attainment of jhāna in the canonical sense.

And in One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassanā in Buddhist Practice, he adds:
Almost any book on early Buddhist meditation will tell you that the Buddha taught two types of meditation: samatha and vipassanā. Samatha, which means tranquility, is said to be a method fostering strong states of mental absorption, called jhāna. Vipassanā — literally "clear-seeing," but more often translated as insight meditation — is said to be a method using a modicum of tranquility to foster moment-to-moment mindfulness of the inconstancy of events as they are directly experienced in the present. This mindfulness creates a sense of dispassion toward all events, thus leading the mind to release from suffering. These two methods are quite separate, we're told, and of the two, vipassanā is the distinctive Buddhist contribution to meditative science. Other systems of practice pre-dating the Buddha also taught samatha, but the Buddha was the first to discover and teach vipassanā. Although some Buddhist meditators may practice samatha meditation before turning to vipassanā, samatha practice is not really necessary for the pursuit of Awakening. As a meditative tool, the vipassanā method is sufficient for attaining the goal. Or so we're told.

But if you look directly at the Pāli discourses — the earliest extant sources for our knowledge of the Buddha's teachings — you'll find that although they do use the word samatha to mean tranquility, and vipassanā to mean clear-seeing, they otherwise confirm none of the received wisdom about these terms. Only rarely do they make use of the word vipassanā — a sharp contrast to their frequent use of the word jhāna. When they depict the Buddha telling his disciples to go meditate, they never quote him as saying "go do vipassanā," but always "go do jhāna." And they never equate the word vipassanā with any mindfulness techniques. In the few instances where they do mention vipassanā, they almost always pair it with samatha — not as two alternative methods, but as two qualities of mind that a person may "gain" or "be endowed with," and that should be developed together.

Ven. Gunaratana, in his paper Should We Come Out of Jhāna to Practice Vipassanā? agrees:
Can jhānic concentration penetrate things as they really are? Do we have to come out of jhāna in order to practice vipassanā? Is concentration the same as absorption? If jhānic concentration is the same as being absorbed by our object of focus then yes, we must leave jhāna to practice vipassanā. But, when we become absorbed into our object of focus, what we are practicing is "wrong" jhāna. When we practice "right" jhāna we will be able to see things as they really are.

When we read how the Buddha used his own fourth jhānic concentration, as described in many suttas, we have no reason to believe that he came out of jhāna to develop the three kinds of knowledge: knowledge of seeing the past, knowledge of seeing beings dying and taking rebirth, and knowledge of the destruction of defilements. The Buddha used the fourth jhāna for vipassanā.

Using the English word "absorption" to denote the deep concentration in the jhāna is very misleading. There are many mental factors in any jhāna and the meditator is quite aware of them. When you are aware of these mental factors you are not absorbed into them, but conscious of them or mindful of them. If you are absorbed in the subject you will not understand, nor remember anything.

And in his Path, Fruit and Nibbāna, Ven. Kheminda also agrees that according to the Pāli canon jhāna is an essential component of the path:
[W]ith the first meditation (paṭhamajjhāna) he [i.e. the Bodhisatta] was able to replace the hindrances with the meditation factors. Here it is well to note that the Bodhisatta put away the five hindrances by developing the first meditation, and not by any other means. Shortly after his enlightenment the Buddha came to the conclusion under the Goatherd’s Banyan that the sole way to the purification of beings is the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness. And the four foundations of mindfulness begin with a serenity (samatha) subject of meditation, namely, mindfulness of in-breathing and out-breathing (ānāpānasati)....

Meditation (jhāna) is therefore essential to the journey from here to the other shore. It is not to be treated lightly with sweeping statements like “It is found in outside (bahira) teachings, too, and so is not important.” We have seen how the Bodhisatta rejected the meditation taught by his former teachers who were outsiders (bahiraka), and the not-breathing meditation which, too, is an outside teaching, to follow the first meditation (jhāna) which finally led him to supreme enlightenment.

There is also analysis of some the commentarial developments which culminated in the Visuddhimagga treatment of jhāna in The Mystery of the Breath Nimitta by Ven. Soṇa.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:22 am
Title: Re: Bodhi & nibbana: stream-entry or arhatship?
Content:
Nibbāna is a negation. It means extinguishment. With the fruition of each of the four paths one knows the termination of the fetters which are eliminated by that path. This termination is nibbāna appropriate to that path. The Paṭisambhidāmagga:
How is it that the discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa)?

Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), doubt (vicikicchā), and mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbataparāmāsa).... This discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....

He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.

And so on for the fetters which are terminated on the remaining three paths. The once-returner path terminates the gross fetters of desire for sensual pleasure (kāmacchanda) and aversion (vyāpāda/byāpāda). The non-returner path terminates the secondary fetters of desire for sensual pleasure (kāmacchanda) and aversion (vyāpāda/byāpāda). The arahant path terminates the fetters of passion for form [existence] (rūparāga), passion for formless [existence] (arūparāga), conceit (māna), restlessness (uddhacca), and ignorance (avijjā).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:16 am
Title: Re: The Heretic Sage- Interview with Bhante Ñāṇananda
Content:
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. It's been a while since I read it, but I didn't get any sense that it was fictitious or contrary to Ven. Ñāṇananda's known writings. That said, I don't know anything about Ven. Yogānanda. According to Adeh's post above, this interview has been included in the published book The Mind Stilled. So if it's a ruse it's a pretty well thought out and elaborate one.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:55 am
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
Ven. Ṭhānissaro, Wings to Awakening Part III F: Concentration &amp; Discernment:
The role of jhana as a condition for transcendent discernment is one of the most controversial issues in the Theravada tradition. Three basic positions have been advanced in modern writings. One, following the commentarial tradition, asserts that jhana is not necessary for any of the four levels of Awakening and that there is a class of individuals — called "dry insight" meditators — who are "released through discernment" based on a level of concentration lower than that of jhana. A second position, citing a passage in the Canon [AN 3.88] stating that concentration is mastered only on the level of non-returning, holds that jhana is necessary for the attainment of non-returning and arahantship, but not for the lower levels of Awakening. The third position states that the attainment of at least the first level of jhana is essential for all four levels of Awakening.

Evidence from the Canon supports the third position, but not the other two. As MN 117 points out, the attainment of stream-entry has eight factors, one of which is right concentration, defined as jhana. In fact, according to this particular discourse, jhana is the heart of the streamwinner's path. Second, there is no passage in the Canon describing the development of transcendent discernment without at least some skill in jhana. The statement that concentration is mastered only on the level of non-returning must be interpreted in the light of the distinction between mastery and attainment. A streamwinner may have attained jhana without mastering it; the discernment developed in the process of gaining full mastery over the practice of jhana will then lead him/her to the level of non-returning. As for the term "released through discernment," MN 70 shows that it denotes people who have become arahants without experiencing the four formless jhanas. It does not indicate a person who has not experienced jhana.

Part of the controversy over this question may be explained by the fact that the commentarial literature defines jhana in terms that bear little resemblance to the canonical description. The Path of Purification — the cornerstone of the commentarial system — takes as its paradigm for meditation practice a method called kasina, in which one stares at an external object until the image of the object is imprinted in one's mind. The image then gives rise to a countersign that is said to indicate the attainment of threshold concentration, a necessary prelude to jhana. The text then tries to fit all other meditation methods into the mold of kasina practice, so that they too give rise to countersigns, but even by its own admission, breath meditation does not fit well into the mold: with other methods, the stronger one's focus, the more vivid the object and the closer it is to producing a sign and countersign; but with the breath, the stronger one's focus, the harder the object is to detect. As a result, the text states that only Buddhas and Buddhas' sons find the breath a congenial focal point for attaining jhana.

None of these assertions have any support in the Canon. Although a practice called kasina is mentioned tangentially in some of the discourses, the only point where it is described in any detail [MN 121] makes no mention of staring at an object or gaining a countersign. If breath meditation were congenial only to Buddhas and their sons, there seems little reason for the Buddha to have taught it so frequently and to such a wide variety of people. If the arising of a countersign were essential to the attainment of jhana, one would expect it to be included in the steps of breath meditation and in the graphic analogies used to describe jhana, but it isn't. Some Theravadins insist that questioning the commentaries is a sign of disrespect for the tradition, but it seems to be a sign of greater disrespect for the Buddha — or the compilers of the Canon — to assume that he or they would have left out something absolutely essential to the practice.

All of these points seem to indicate that what jhana means in the commentaries is something quite different from what it means in the Canon. Because of this difference we can say that the commentaries are right in viewing their type of jhana as unnecessary for Awakening, but Awakening cannot occur without the attainment of jhana in the canonical sense.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:26 am
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
The real question is the optimal development of the noble eightfold path. The noble eightfold path presented in the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka and early para-canonical sources such as the Peṭakopadesa and the Nettippakaraṇa always include the coupling of calm (samatha) and clear seeing (vipassanā) at some stage of the noble path. These two mental factors are mutually conditioning, each serving to strengthen the other when skillfully employed within jhāna.

Ven. Ṭhānissaro describes what Ajahn Fuang considered to be wrong concentration as follows:
There were two exceptions to Ajaan Fuang's usual practice of not identifying the state you had attained in your practice, and both involved states of wrong concentration. The first was the state that comes when the breath gets so comfortable that your focus drifts from the breath to the sense of comfort itself, your mindfulness begins to blur, and your sense of the body and your surroundings gets lost in a pleasant haze. When you emerge, you find it hard to identify where exactly you were focused. Ajaan Fuang called this moha-samadhi, or delusion-concentration.

The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time.

After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.

In both these states of wrong concentration, the limited range of awareness was what made them wrong. If whole areas of your awareness are blocked off, how can you gain all-around insight? And as I've noticed in years since, people adept at blotting out large areas of awareness through powerful one-pointedness also tend to be psychologically adept at dissociation and denial. This is why Ajaan Fuang, following Ajaan Lee, taught a form of breath meditation that aimed at an all-around awareness of the breath energy throughout the body, playing with it to gain a sense of ease, and then calming it so that it wouldn't interfere with a clear vision of the subtle movements of the mind. This all-around awareness helped to eliminate the blind spots where ignorance likes to lurk.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:16 am
Title: Re: The Heretic Sage- Interview with Bhante Ñāṇananda
Content:
And what agenda would that be?


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:40 am
Title: Re: The Heretic Sage- Interview with Bhante Ñāṇananda
Content:
Ven. Ñāṇananda is exposing the "myth of the given" and what he has referred to as the "relentless tyranny of the empirical consciousness" (Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought, p. 32).

From Ven. Ñāṇananda's The Magic of the Mind, p. 63:
It would indeed appear strange to us that in Buddhist psychology even contact and feeling – with which we are so intimate – are treated as ‘designations’ (paññatti). We might feel that this is an intrusion of the ‘designation’ into the jealously guarded recesses of the psyche. Yet this is not the case, for, in the very act of apperception contacts and feelings are reckoned, evaluated, defined, and designated on the basis of one’s latencies (i.e. the aggregates). Thus there is hardly any justification for regarding them as ‘the given’, though we are accustomed to take them for granted. In other words, what we are wont to treat as ‘the given,’ turns out to be ‘synthetic’ and ‘composite’ (saṅkhata).

And from his Concept and Reality In Early Buddhist Thought, p. 87:
The primary significance of the formula of Dependent Arising lies here. Lists of phenomena, both mental and material, are linked together with the term "paccayā" or any of its equivalents, and the fact of their conditionality and non-substantiality is emphasized with the help of analysis and synthesis. Apart from serving the immediate purpose of their specific application, these formulas help us to attune our minds in order to gain paññā. Neither the words in these formulas, nor the formulas as such, are to be regarded as ultimate categories. We have to look not so much at them as through them. We must not miss the wood for the trees by dogmatically clinging to the words in the formulas as being ultimate categories. As concepts, they are merely the modes in which the flux of material and mental life has been arrested and split up in the realm of ideation....

Concept and Reality, pp. 55 - 56:
Concepts – be they material or spiritual, worldly or transcendental – are not worthy of being grasped dogmatically. They are not to be treated as ultimate categories and are to be discarded in the course of the spiritual endeavour.... That the emancipated sage (muni) no longer clings even to such concepts as "nibbāna" or "detachment" (virāga) is clearly indicated in the following verse of the Sutta Nipāta:

"For the Brahmin (the Muni) who has transcended all bounds, there is nothing that is grasped by knowing or by seeing. He is neither attached to attachment nor is he attached to detachment. In this world, he has grasped nothing as the highest." [Sn 795]

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:00 am
Title: Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”
Content:
Anyone who relies on the jhāna theory of Ven. Brahmavamso (as well as many people who rely on the Visuddhimagga jhāna descriptions without a careful study of all relevant older material) is going to have a very different understanding of what jhāna is, than someone who relies on the Tipiṭaka as canonical authority and has also studied other early para-canonical Pāḷi and other Sthaviravāda treatises.

For example, in The Jhānas Ven. Brahmavamso describes singleness of mind as follows:
One-pointedness describes the mindfulness that is so sharply focused on a minute area of existence. It is one-pointed in space because it only sees the point source of bliss, together with a small area surrounding the bliss caused by the first jhāna wobble.

But the canon offers a much different understanding of singleness of mind (citta ekagga, cittekaggatā). Singleness of mind is possible in any state which has discarded the five hindrances and therefore has nothing to do with being "sharply focused on a minute area of existence." For example, AN 4.12 Sīla Sutta:
If while he is walking, standing, sitting, or reclining, a monk is free from greed and ill will, from sloth and torpor, from restlessness and worry, and has discarded doubt, then his will has become strong and impregnable; his mindfulness is alert and unclouded; his body is calm and unexcited; his mind is concentrated and collected (samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ).

And also, differing from Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna, the canon describes the mind in jhāna as vast and expansive. MN 127 describes the expansive liberation of mind (mahaggatā cetovimutti), which is a synonym for the mastery of jhāna, as follows:
And what, householder, is the expansive liberation of mind? Here a monk abides resolved upon an area the size of the root of one tree, pervading it as expansive: this is called the expansive liberation of mind. Here a monk abides resolved upon an area the size of the roots of two or three trees, pervading it as expansive: this too is called the expansive liberation of mind. Here a monk abides resolved upon an area the size of one village, pervading it as expansive ... an area the size of two or three villages... an area the size of one major kingdom... an area the size of two or three major kingdoms... an area the size of the earth bounded by the ocean, pervading it as expansive: this too is called the expansive liberation of mind.

Moreover, MN 111, the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and the Dhammasaṅgaṇī are all canonical authorities which support developing vipassanā within jhāna. MN 111 informs us that in the first seven attainments phenomena are differentiated and known as they occur. It's not vipassanā of phenomena that had passed, ceased, and changed, it's vipassanā of phenomena one by one as they occurred:
tyāssa dhammā anupadavavatthitā honti; tyāssa dhammā viditā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.

these phenomena were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him these phenomena arose, known they were present, known they disappeared.
This is a description of vipassanā of phenomena one by one as they occurred (anupadadhammavipassanā). But according to Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna, there can be no comprehension within jhāna. In The Jhānas Ven. Brahmavamso states:
When perspective is removed, so is comprehension. Thus in jhāna, not only is there no sense of time, but also there is no comprehension of what is going on.

This lack of comprehension precludes any differentiation and knowing of phenomena one by one as they occur in jhāna. For Ven. Brahmavamso this differentiation and knowing of mental factors is impossible within jhāna. He continues:
Furthermore, the ultra-stillness of mindfulness in jhāna freezes the activity of mind called comprehension to the extent that, while in jhāna, one can hardly make sense of one's experience. The landmarks of jhāna are only recognized later, after emerging and reviewing.

Therefore, according to Ven. Brahmavamso, the MN 111 statement that "these phenomena were defined by him one by one as they occurred," would be impossible. This passage would have to be discarded for all of the first seven attainments and replaced by the passage describing the final two attainments:
so tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahati. so tāya samāpattiyā sato vuṭṭhahitvā ye dhammā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā te dhamme samanupassati 'evaṃ kirame dhammā ahutvā sambhonti, hutvā paṭiventī'ti

He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the phenomena that had passed, ceased and changed, thus: 'So indeed, these phenomena, not having been, come into being; having been they vanished.'

But in the sutta this passage only pertains to the final two attainments. In the final two attainments phenomena cannot be differentiated and known as they occur because apperception isn't sufficiently engaged.

And not only is this the case for MN 111, but also the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, the Mahāvibhāṣā, and the Abhidharmakośabhāṣya (i.e. all major Indian Theravāda/Sthaviravāda texts), as well as the detailed Sautrāntika and Yogācāra texts all maintain that vipassanā can and should optimally be developed within jhāna. For example, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī section on Rūpāvacarakusala lists the mental factors engaged in an optimally skillful rūpāvacarajjhānacitta on that specific occasion, specifically, at that time. This list includes sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsati, sampajañña, samatha, and vipassanā:
What at that time is samatha? That which at that time is stability of mind, steadfastness of mind, thorough steadfastness of mind, unshakableness, non-distraction, imperturbability, calmness of mind, faculty of concentration, strength of concentration, right concentration. This at that time is samatha.

What at that time is vipassanā? That which at that time is discernment (paññā), thorough understanding, investigation, comprehensive investigation, investigation of phenomena, consideration, discrimination, direct discrimination, erudite intelligence, proficiency, refined intelligence, discriminative examination.... This at that time is vipassanā.

Taking the canonical Pāḷi treatises into consideration, as well as the numerous major non-Pāḷi Abhidharma treatises, there is nothing whatsoever unusual about the inclusion of vipassanā here. The Sarvāstivāda *Mahāvibhāṣā (Apidamo dapiposha lun) states:
In the four dhyānas, śamatha and vipaśyanā are equal in strength, and thus they are named a pleasant dwelling.

The Abhidharmakośabhāṣya:
Samādhi is in fact excellent: it is a dhyāna filled with "parts," which goes by the means of the yoke of śamatha and vipaśyanā [that is to say, in which śamatha and vipaśyanā are in equilibrium], that is termed in the Sūtra "happiness in this world" and "the easy path," the path by which one knows better and easily.

The Yogācārabhūmiśāstra:
Furthermore, only by depending on the dhyānas and the access concentration preceding the first dhyāna, the incompletely attained concentration, can one make the [initial] breakthrough to the noble truths. The formless attainments are inadequate. What is the reason? In the state of the formless attainments, the path of śamatha is superior, whereas the path of vipaśyanā is inferior. The inferior path of vipaśyanā is incapable of attaining the [initial] breakthrough to the noble truths.

The *Tattvasiddhiśāstra (Chengshih lun), the *Prakaraṇāryavācaśāstra (Xianyang shengjiao lun), and the *Mahāprajñāpāramitopadeśa (Dazhi du lun) all make similar statements to these.

As happens in every case, all of these references are completely incompatible with Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna theory.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:10 am
Title: Re: The Heretic Sage- Interview with Bhante Ñāṇananda
Content:
Such as?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:06 pm
Title: Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
Content:
Indeed.


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:44 pm
Title: Re: Ajahn Chah Zen Theravada?
Content:
While this may have some basis in Japanese circles, there have been and still are Chinese teachers who closely adhere to vinaya. Ven. Xuānhuà being one well known modern example.



All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:18 pm
Title: Re: Sectarianism
Content:
Indeed. Of course, when individuals have sufficient understanding of the philological, philosophical and historical basis for comparison we have informative dialogues and not the pointless and uninformed diatribes which so often seem to occur when this understanding is lacking.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:08 pm
Title: Re: The Heretic Sage- Interview with Bhante Ñāṇananda
Content:
What precisely do you find peculiar about it?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:22 pm
Title: Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana
Content:
Ajahn Chah, "Not Sure!" — The Standard of the Noble Ones:
All the teachings in this world can be contained in this one teaching: aniccam. Think about it. I've searched for over forty years as a monk and this is all I could find. That and patient endurance. This is how to approach the Buddha's teaching... aniccam: it's all uncertain.

No matter how sure the mind wants to be, just tell it, ''Not sure!'' Whenever the mind wants to grab on to something as a sure thing, just say, ''It's not sure, it's transient.'' Just ram it down with this. Using the Dhamma of the Buddha it all comes down to this. It's not that it's merely a momentary phenomenon. Whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, you see everything in that way. Whether liking arises or dislike arises you see it all in the same way. This is getting close to the Buddha, close to the Dhamma.

Now I feel that this is a more valuable way to practice. All my practice from the early days up to the present time has been like this. I didn't actually rely on the scriptures, but then I didn't disregard them either. I didn't rely on a teacher but then I didn't exactly ''go it alone.'' My practice was all ''neither this nor that.''

Frankly it's a matter of ''finishing off,'' that is, practicing to the finish by taking up the practice and then seeing it to completion, seeing the apparent and also the transcendent.

I've already spoken of this, but some of you may be interested to hear it again: if you practice consistently and consider things thoroughly, you will eventually reach this point... At first you hurry to go forward, hurry to come back, and hurry to stop. You continue to practice like this until you reach the point where it seems that going forward is not it, coming back is not it, and stopping is not it either! It's finished. This is the finish. Don't expect anything more than this, it finishes right here. Khīnāsavo - one who is completed. He doesn't go forward, doesn't retreat and doesn't stop. There's no stopping, no going forward and no coming back. It's finished. Consider this, realize it clearly in your own mind. Right there you will find that there is really nothing at all.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:35 am
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
Indeed. And this cessation is the cessation of mistaken perceptual signs of permanence. Ven. Ñāṇananda's Nibbāna Sermons:
With the dispelling of the perception of permanence, the tendency to grasp a sign or catch a theme is removed. It is due to the perception of permanence that one grasps a sign in accordance with perceptual data. When one neither takes a sign nor gets carried away by its details, there is no aspiration, expectation, or objective by way of craving. When there is no aspiration, one cannot see any purpose or essence to aim at.

It is through the three deliverances, the signless, the desireless, and the void, that the drama of existence comes to an end. The perception of impermanence is the main contributory factor for the cessation of this drama....

Since the world is built up by the six sense-spheres, it has also to cease by the cessation of those six sense-spheres. That is why Nibbāna is defined as the cessation of the six sense-spheres, saḷāyatananirodho Nibbānaṃ. All those measuring rods and scales lose their applicability with the cessation of the six sense-spheres.

How can there be an experience of cessation of the six sense-spheres? The cessation here meant is actually the cessation of the spheres of contact. A sphere of contact presupposes a duality. Contact is always between two things, between eye and forms, for instance. It is because of a contact between two things that one entertains a perception of permanence in those two things. Dependent on that contact, feelings and perceptions arise, creating a visual world. The visual world of the humans differs from that of animals. Some things that are visible to animals are not visible to humans. That is due to the constitution of the eye-faculty. It is the same with regard to the ear-faculty. These are the measuring rods and scales which build up a world. Now this world, which is a product of the spheres of sense-contact, is a world of papañca, or "proliferation". Nibbāna is called nippapañca because it transcends this proliferation, puts an end to proliferation. The end of proliferation is at the same time the end of the six sense-spheres....

It is the substructure of this sense created world that the Buddha has revealed to us in this particular discourse on impermanence. The substructure, on analysis, reveals a duality, dvayaṃ, bhikkhave, paṭicca viññāṇaṃ sambhoti, "dependent on a dyad, monks, arises consciousness". Consciousness is not something substantial and absolute, like the so-called soul. That is precisely the point of divergence for Buddhism, when compared with those religious systems which rely on soul theories.

In the Dhamma there is mention of six consciousnesses, as cakkhu-viññāṇa, sotaviññāṇa, ghānaviññāṇa, jivhāviññāṇa, kāyaviññāṇa and manoviññāṇa, eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- and mind-consciousness. Everyone of these consciousnesses is based on a dyad. Just as in the case of eye-consciousness we are given the formula beginning with cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca, "dependent on eye and forms", so with regard to ear-consciousness we get sotañca paṭicca sadde ca, "dependent on ear and sounds", and so on. Even when we come to mind-consciousness, the theme is the same, manañca paṭicca dhamme ca, "dependent on mind and mind-objects". Mind also is vibrating, changing and transforming with extreme rapidity every moment. So are the objects of the mind.

The entire world is structured on these vibrant, transient and evanescent basic elements. That is the burden of this powerful discourse of the Buddha. Therefore, if someone developed the contemplation of impermanence to the highest degree and brought his mind to the signless state, having started from the sign itself, it goes without saying that he has realized the cessation of the world. That is, the experience of Nibbāna.

It is, at the same time, the cessation of proliferation, papañcanirodha. Prolific conceptualization is founded on the perception of permanence, whereby one comes under the sway of reckonings born of prolific perceptions, papañcasaññāsaṅkhā. Proliferation creates things, giving rise to the antinomian conflict. Duality masquerades behind it.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:29 am
Title: Re: What fabrications to still? What acquisitions to relinquish?
Content:
All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:48 am
Title: Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana
Content:
I'd suggest that it's far better to continue practicing and developing samādhi, rather than wondering about these types of questions. If you're able to commit to renunciation and solitude, then the mind will calm and vipassanā will lead to disenchantment and dispassion. When the mind is calm and clear everything else can fall into place. Ajahn Chah, Suffering on the Road:
Sitting meditation with a distracted mind is uncertain. When the meditation brings good results and the mind enters a state of calm, that's also uncertain. This is where insight comes. What is there left for you to attach to? Keep following up on what's happening in the mind. As you investigate, keep questioning and prodding, probing deeper and deeper into the nature of impermanence. Sustain your mindfulness right at this point -- you don't have to go anywhere else. In no time at all, the mind will calm down just as you want it to.

The reason practising with the meditation word ''Buddho'' doesn't make the mind peaceful, or practising mindfulness of breathing doesn't make the mind peaceful, is because you are attaching to the distracted mind. When reciting ''Buddho'' or concentrating on the breath and the mind still hasn't calmed down, reflect on uncertainty and don't get too involved with the state of mind whether its peaceful or not. Even if you enter a state of calm, don't get too involved with it, because it can delude you and cause you to attach too much meaning and importance to that state. You have to use some wisdom when dealing with the deluded mind. When it is calm you simply acknowledge the fact and take it as a sign that the meditation is going in the right direction. If the mind isn't calm you simply acknowledge the reality that the mind is confused and distracted, but there's nothing to be gained from refusing to accept the truth and trying to struggle against it. When the mind is peaceful you can be aware that it is peaceful, but remind yourself that any peaceful state is uncertain. When the mind is distracted, you observe the lack of peace and know that it is just that -- the distracted state of mind is equally as prone to change as a peaceful one.

If you have established this kind of insight, the attachment to the sense of self collapses as soon as you begin to confront it and investigate.

Ajahn Chah, Monastery of Confusion:
Whatever suits you, whatever you feel comfortable with and helps you fix your mind, focus on that.

It's like this: if we get attached to the ideals and take the guidelines that we are given in the instructions too literally, it can be difficult to understand. When doing a standard meditation such as mindfulness of breathing, first we should make the determination that right now we are going to do this practice, and we are going to make mindfulness of breathing our foundation. We only focus on the breath at three points, as it passes through the nostrils, the chest and the abdomen. When the air enters it first passes the nose, then through the chest, then to the end point of the abdomen. As it leaves the body, the beginning is the abdomen, the middle is the chest, and the end is the nose. We merely note it. This is a way to start controlling the mind, tying awareness to these points at the beginning, middle and end of the inhalations and exhalations.

Before we begin we should first sit and let the mind relax. It's similar to sewing robes on a treadle sewing machine. When we are learning to use the sewing machine, first we just sit in front of the machine to get familiar with it and feel comfortable. Here, we just sit and breathe. Not fixing awareness on anything, we merely take note that we are breathing. We take note of whether the breath is relaxed or not and how long or short it is. Having noticed this, then we begin focusing on the inhalation and exhalation at the three points.

We practice like this until we become skilled in it and it goes smoothly. The next stage is to focus awareness only on the sensation of the breath at the tip of the nose or the upper lip. At this point we aren't concerned with whether the breath is long or short, but only focus on the sensation of entering and exiting.

Different phenomena may contact the senses, or thoughts may arise. This is called initial thought (vitakka). The mind brings up some idea, be it about the nature of compounded phenomena (sankhārā), about the world, or whatever. Once the mind has brought it up, the mind will want to get involved and merge with it. If it's an object that is wholesome then let the mind take it up. If it is something unwholesome, stop it immediately. If it is something wholesome then let the mind contemplate it, and gladness, satisfaction and happiness will come about. The mind will be bright and clear; as the breath goes in and out and as the mind takes up these initial thoughts. Then it becomes discursive thought (vicāra). The mind develops familiarity with the object, exerting itself and merging with it. At this point, there is no sleepiness.

After an appropriate period of this, take your attention back to the breath. Then as you continue on there will be the initial thought and discursive thought, initial thought and discursive thought. If you are contemplating skillfully on an object such as the nature of sankhāra, then the mind will experience deeper tranquility and rapture is born. There is the vitakka and vicāra, and that leads to happiness of mind. At this time there won't be any dullness or drowsiness. The mind won't be dark if we practice like this. It will be gladdened and enraptured.

This rapture will start to diminish and disappear after a while, so you can take up the initial thought again. The mind will become firm and certain with it -- undistracted. Then you go on to discursive thought again, the mind becoming one with it. When you are practicing a meditation that suits your temperament and doing it well, then whenever you take up the object, rapture will come about: the hairs of the body stand on end and the mind is enraptured and satiated. 
All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:11 am
Title: Re: Anapanasati Vs. jhana
Content:
Indeed, if you're referring to a sign of light (obhāsanimitta) and a sign of form (rūpanimitta) mentioned in MN 128 Upakkilesa Sutta. Some contemporary teachers and commentators have suggested that the sign of light (obhāsanimitta) and/or the sign of form (rūpanimitta) mentioned in MN 128 Upakkilesa Sutta are canonical references to what later came to be designated as the counterpart sign (paṭibhāganimitta) in the commentaries, and thus establishes that these nimittas were considered an essential aspect of the development of jhāna even in the early tradition.

There are a couple of points worth mentioning in this regard. Firstly, MN 128 is the only discourse where the term nimitta is used in this context. None of the other canonical occurrences of nimitta as either samādhinimitta, samatha nimitta, or cittanimitta refer to any of these nimittas being an obhāsanimitta or rūpanimitta as explained in the Upakkilesa Sutta.

Secondly, nowhere in the Upakkilesa Sutta does it state that either the obhāsanimitta or the rūpanimitta are essential prerequisites for attaining the first jhāna. Nor does this sutta maintain that the complete elimination of any experience of the five sensory spheres is essential for the arising of either of these two cognitive signs. Therefore, while these apperceptions of light and visions of form can occur during the course of meditational development, there is no explicit statement here, or elsewhere in the suttas, that such apperceptions must arise for one to enter jhāna. Indeed, even the commentarial tradition doesn’t maintain that either of these types of nimittas are essential for the first jhāna.

For example, the Vimuttimagga takes the instructions offered in the Upakkilesa Sutta to refer to the development of the divine eye. This is understandable, as Anuruddhā, the main interlocutor in this discourse with the Buddha, was later designated as the foremost disciple endowed with the divine eye.

And not even the Visuddhimagga limits counterpart signs to apperceptions of light or forms. According to the Visuddhimagga analysis, of the thirty meditations which lead to jhāna, twenty-two have counterpart signs as object. And of these, only nineteen require any sort of counterpart sign which is apprehended based solely on sight, and can therefore give rise to a mental image resulting from that nimitta (the ten stages of corpse decomposition and nine kasiṇas, excluding the air kasiṇa which can be apprehended by way of either sight or tactile sensation).

And so taking all of the above into consideration, according to the early Pāḷi dhamma there is no need to establish a jhāna nimitta (or samathanimitta or cittanimitta) apart from the jhāna factors. And even according to the Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga — where the presentation of the method using a counterpart sign is explicitly developed — there is no suggestion that a counterpart sign necessarily must be a sign of light (obhāsanimitta) and/or a sign of form (rūpanimitta). Indeed, according to the Vimuttimagga, when employing mindfulness of breathing in order to attain jhāna, the counterpart sign should be concomitant with the pleasant feeling which arises as one attends to the breath at the nostril area or the area of the upper lip, which is likened to the pleasant feeling produced by a breeze. The text says that this counterpart sign doesn’t depend on color or form, and any adventitious mental images which arise in the course of practice should not be attended to.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:18 am
Title: Re: My latest theory: No stationary self
Content:
Yes, indeed. An arahant has abandoned all notions of "I am."

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:07 pm
Title: Re: My latest theory: No stationary self
Content:
Of course, conventionally speaking, people exist. Simplistic reductionism cannot account for dynamic systems such as biological systems or mind-streams or sentient beings. An ordered, functioning system cannot be reduced to the sum of its parts. A living cell cannot be reduced to the molecules which comprise it. A complex living organism cannot be reduced to to the cells which comprise it. In the context of a mind-stream, a healthy functioning ego cannot simply be reduced to the aggregates which comprise it (or more precisely, from which it emerges). Why? Because there are pathological mind-streams which have all of the same component parts (i.e. feeling, apperception, contact, attention, intention, desire, etc.), yet a healthy, functional ego (which is a dynamic system) doesn't emerge from these component parts. This is why many contemporary insight meditation teachers have recognized that no significant progress can be made by employing the path of gradual training unless the student is in good mental health. Hence the well known phrase: "You have to be somebody before you can be nobody."

In order to understand the recognition of anatta (anattasaññā) it's important to understand the object of negation. Anatta is negating the notion of a permanent Self which is not subject to affliction/dis-ease. It is not negating the utility of a healthy, functional ego with conditional self-agency (attakāra). Take SN 22.59 for example, as it is a central teachings on anatta. The Self which is being negated in SN 22.59 is a Self which would be:
1. permanent
2. satisfactory
3. not subject to affliction/dis-ease

This "Self" is refuted: a permanent, satisfactory Self which is not prone to old age, sickness, and death. As SN 22.59 states:
Bhikkhus, form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness is not-self. Were form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness self, then this form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness would not lead to affliction/dis-ease.

This criterion of affliction/disease is context for the following statement that:
none can have it of form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness: 'Let my form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness be thus, let my form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness be not thus.'

This in no way negates conditional self-agency (attakāra). AN 6.38 Attakāra Sutta:
"This, master Gotama, is my my doctrine; this is my view: There is no self-agency/acting (attakāra); there is no other-agency/acting (parakāra)."

"Never, brahman, have I seen or heard of such a doctrine, such a view. How indeed can one step forward, how can one step back, yet say: 'There is no self-agency/acting; there is no other-agency/acting'? What do you think, brahman, is there such a thing as initiative?"

"Yes, sir."

"That being so, are beings known to initiate?"

"Yes, sir."

"Well, brahman, since there is such a thing as initiative and beings are known to initiate, this among beings is self-agency; this is other-agency."

"What do you think, brahmin, is there such a thing as stepping away ... such a thing as stepping forward ... such a thing as stopping ... such a thing as standing still ... such a thing as stepping toward?"

"Yes, sir."

"That being so, are beings known to do all these things?"

"Yes, sir."

"Well, brahmin, since there is such a thing as stepping away and stepping forward, and the rest, and beings are known to do these things, this among beings is self-agency/acting; this is other-agency/acting. Never, Brahmin, I have seen or heard of such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How indeed can one step forward, how can one step back, yet say: 'There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency'?"

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:26 pm
Title: Re: Interbeing ?
Content:
This metaphor was never really developed in the Indo-Tibetan tradition, where Mādhyamaka negation is employed. Someone like Ven. Huifeng would likely know the specific developments of these ideas within Chinese Buddhist thought.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:01 pm
Title: Re: Interbeing ?
Content:
The view goes back to the metaphor of Indra's net in the Avataṃsaka Sūtra, where there is a jewel at each intersection of a vast net, and each jewel reflects the image of every other jewel in the net. Thus, each jewel contains the image of every other jewel and is a representation of the whole. The Chinese Huayan tradition then developed this metaphor into a view of the "mutual interpenetration of all phenomena," an "oceanic reflection" meditation, and so on. These developments then influenced Chinese Chan as well as Japanese Zen teachers such as Dōgen Zenji.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:39 pm
Title: Re: Interbeing ?
Content:
I don't think that interbeing is a very common expression beyond TNH. Nevertheless, it's not uncommon to find pratītyasamutpāda (paticcasamuppāda) translated as "interdependent origination" etc., which is not the most accurate translation. Anyway, there is really no Pāli source for interbeing, as it is based on Chinese Huayan sources which were developments from the Avataṃsaka Sūtra.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:40 pm
Title: Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment
Content:
The dhamma isn't about "techniques." 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:38 pm
Title: Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment
Content:
Hi Nibs,

I'm not interested in any sort of "us vs. them." Ingram's statements about an arahant still experiencing lust, etc., from the perspective of the suttas, is explicitly demonstrating wrong view. This illustrates a serious lack of understanding of conditioned arising and kamma. And the consequence of wrong view means that he hasn't entered the stream, let alone having any higher realization. 

And from a pragmatic perspective, what kind of "liberation" is he and others with similar views offering? It's certainly not Buddhist liberation. And it's completely disingenuous of anyone to maintain what is contrary to the dhamma is actually liberation. There are many teachers out there who teach what is consistent with the dhammavinaya and are therefore far more credible.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:34 pm
Title: Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment
Content:
Indeed. From the above it seems quite clear that Ingram et al aren't interested in Buddhist liberation.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:07 pm
Title: Re: Fox Wants In
Content:
Fox &amp; bhikṣu (Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia):


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:48 pm
Title: Re: Realization of the fearfulness of the formations
Content:
There is a significant difference between dukkha and "pseudo-dukkha" based on the mistaken reification of fabricated phenomena as truly existent things.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:17 am
Title: Re: Realization of the fearfulness of the formations
Content:
This type of characterization really needs to taken with a grain of salt. Better to practice in accord with the canonical treatises. The Paṭisambhidāmagga states:
Understanding of appearance as terror, gnosis of danger, and dispassion: these things are one in meaning, only the letters are different.

Thus, this stage of insight is related to dispassion, and not directly related to being "gripped by fear" or feeling "helpless." If there is gnosis one will not be gripped by fear or feel helpless. Dispassion is said to be the highest dhamma. It's liberating and the antithesis of fearfulness and helplessness. The Visuddhimagga also mentions this:
But does the knowledge of appearance as terror [itself] fear or does it not fear? It does not fear. For it is simply the mere judgment that past formations have ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease. Just as a man with eyes looking at three charcoal pits at a city gate is not himself afraid, since he only forms the mere judgment that all who fall into them will suffer no little pain;—or just as when a man with eyes looks at three spikes set in a row, an acacia spike, an iron spike, and a gold spike, he is not himself afraid, since he only forms the mere judgment that all who fall on these spikes will suffer no little pain;—so too the knowledge of appearance as terror does not itself fear; it only forms the mere judgment that in the three kinds of becoming, which resemble the three charcoal pits and the three spikes, past formations have ceased, present ones are ceasing, and future ones will cease.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:37 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Ajahn Chah has also said the following on the subject of stream-entry. From Food for the Heart: "Not Sure!" -- The Standard of the Noble Ones:
The Buddha is still alive to this very day, go in and find him. Where is he? At aniccam, go in and find him there, go and bow to him: aniccam, uncertainty. You can stop right there for starters.

If the mind tries to tell you, ''I'm a sotāpanna now,'' go and bow to the sotāpanna. He'll tell you himself, ''It's all uncertain.'' If you meet a sakadāgāmī go and pay respects to him. When he sees you he'll simply say, ''Not a sure thing!'' If there is an anāgāmī go and bow to him. He'll tell you only one thing... ''Uncertain.'' If you meet even an arahant, go and bow to him, he'll tell you even more firmly, ''It's all even more uncertain!'' You'll hear the words of the Noble Ones... ''Everything is uncertain, don't cling to anything.''

And on the value of keeping anicca in mind at all times:
All the teachings in this world can be contained in this one teaching: aniccam. Think about it. I've searched for over forty years as a monk and this is all I could find. That and patient endurance. This is how to approach the Buddha's teaching... aniccam: it's all uncertain.

No matter how sure the mind wants to be, just tell it, ''Not sure!'' Whenever the mind wants to grab on to something as a sure thing, just say, ''It's not sure, it's transient.'' Just ram it down with this. Using the Dhamma of the Buddha it all comes down to this. It's not that it's merely a momentary phenomenon. Whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, you see everything in that way. Whether liking arises or dislike arises you see it all in the same way. This is getting close to the Buddha, close to the Dhamma.

Now I feel that this is a more valuable way to practice. All my practice from the early days up to the present time has been like this. I didn't actually rely on the scriptures, but then I didn't disregard them either. I didn't rely on a teacher but then I didn't exactly ''go it alone.'' My practice was all ''neither this nor that.''

Even though this may seem like a simplified dhamma, it's actually the result of mature and profound practice. Often the Abhidhammapiṭaka treatises and the stage models of vipassanā ñāṇa-s -- which seem deep in their complexity -- don't accurately convey the pith wisdom of mature practice rooted in a life of simplicity, renunciation, and a calm &amp; clear mind.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:16 pm
Title: Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?
Content:
The threads you are weaving together doesn't present a full picture. As already mentioned, it fails to accurately account for the path structure as presented in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, and the Puggalapaññatti. If one is going to use the path model of the vipassanā ñāṇa-s then it is important to fully account for the path structure as presented in these canonical treatises.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:15 am
Title: Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?
Content:
The non-arising (anuppāda) and non-continuance (appavatta), etc., which happens at the time of change of lineage (gotrabhu), i.e. when one enters the noble paths, is the non-arising and non-continuance of the fetters, mental outflows, and underlying tendencies specifically abandoned on each noble path, and not the non-arising and non-continuance of the the supramundane jhāna factors themselves. If there are no supramundane jhāna factors and no concomitant gnosis, there is no noble path and no possibility of liberation from fetters. The Paṭisambhidāmagga:
How is it that the discernment of contemplating what is cut off is gnosis of liberation (vimuttiñāṇa)?

By the stream-entry path the following imperfections are completely cut off in his own mind: (1) identity-view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), (2) doubt (vicikicchā), (3) mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbataparāmāsa), (4) the underlying tendency of views (diṭṭhānusaya), (5) the underlying tendency of doubt (vicikicchānusaya). Mind is liberated, completely liberated from these five imperfections with their modes of obsession.

How is it that the discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa)?

Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty.... This discernment of the termination of continuance in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....

He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.

Also, it's worth mentioning that there is no canonical support for the notion that the noble path consists of two or three mind moments. For a good survey of the relevant passages from the Pāli Tipiṭaka, see Path, Fruit, and Nibbāna (PDF) by Ven. Kheminda.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:12 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Of course there is. The canon tells us that it is the cutting off and full extinguishment (parinibbāna) of the first three fetters. The Paṭisambhidāmagga:
How is it that the discernment of contemplating what is cut off is gnosis of liberation (vimuttiñāṇa)?

By the stream-entry path the following imperfections are completely cut off in his own mind: (1) identity-view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), (2) doubt (vicikicchā), (3) mistaken adherence to rules and duty (sīlabbataparāmāsa), (4) the underlying tendency of views (diṭṭhānusaya), (5) the underlying tendency of doubt (vicikicchānusaya). Mind is liberated, completely liberated from these five imperfections with their modes of obsession.

How is it that the discernment of the termination of occurrence in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment (parinibbāna ñāṇa)?

Through the stream-entry path he terminates identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty.... This discernment of the termination of occurrence in one who is fully aware is gnosis of full extinguishment....

He causes the cessation of identity view, doubt, and mistaken adherence to rules and duty through the stream-entry path.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:35 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Again, your interpretation isn't supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka or even by the commentarial tradition. In keeping with the Kathāvatthu, the Visuddhimagga has to maintain that the cessation of apperception and feeling, which is also called cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti) is neither supramundane nor not-conditioned (asaṅkhata). Visuddhimagga 23.52:
As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:19 pm
Title: Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?
Content:
The lack of canonical support for your interpretation of nibbāna has nothing to do with me or my practice, or anyone else's practice. Blackout cessations are just another passing experience (or non-experience). Just one more thing to be let go of. Certainly not a sign of stream entry. Such experiences are experienced by all sorts of yogis including those practicing non-Buddhist systems. Thus, they have nothing to do with the correct engagement of vipassanā.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:53 pm
Title: Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?
Content:
Nibbāna is the realization of the noble truth of the cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha ariyasacca), which is not synonymous with nirodhasamāpatti. DN 22:
And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading &amp; cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, &amp; letting go of that very craving [for sensual pleasure, craving existence, craving non-existence].

Your interpretation of the supramundane paths and fruitions is not supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka. This has already been pointed out on this thread. Your interpretation of fruition attainment isn't supported by the Pāli Tipiṭaka either.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:10 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Yeah, blackout cessations are just another passing experience (or non-experience). Just one more thing to be let go of. Certainly not a sign of stream entry. There is no "silver bullet" or "panacea" experience. Life-long dedication and unwavering commitment to practice is what is required.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:44 am
Title: Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?
Content:
In keeping with the Kathāvatthu, the Visuddhimagga has to maintain that the cessation of apperception and feeling, which is also called cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti) is neither supramundane nor not-conditioned (asaṅkhata). Visuddhimagga 23.52:
As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.

Moreover, only arahants who are liberated both ways can experience cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti). Arahants who are liberated through discernment do not. Therefore it is not accurate to equate nibbāna with nirodhasamāpatti.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:58 am
Title: Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?
Content:
Which is why I replied to Starter's last post as I did. One has to be careful with such descriptions which may seem to be pointing to some sort of truly existent "unconditioned ground." Nibbāna is the extinguishment of the mental outflows (āsavā). The liberated mind is measureless (appamāṇa). This is not a "state of oneness with all of existence." It's an absence of identification (anattatā). It's non-indicative (anidassana), unestablished (appatiṭṭha), and not-dependent (anissita). None of these adjectives entail any sort of metaphysical "ground of being" or "unconditioned absolute." They are all negations. An arahant has simply "gone out."

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:53 am
Title: Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?
Content:
Where did I say that "the goal is to reach a feeling of oneness"?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:31 am
Title: Re: The deathless -- "our" most original "nature/home"?
Content:
I think it's important to remember that references to the deathless are pointing to the absence of passion, aggression, and delusion. The Thai forest style of teaching of Ajahn Chah which emphasizes simply being "that which knows" (poo roo: "the one who knows") can lead to this freedom of absence, where there is no identity, no need to grasp changing conditions to try to confirm our existence (which includes relinquishing the need to hold tightly to dhamma "views" as well).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:43 am
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Yes. There are three gateways to supramundane liberation: the signless, the desireless, and the emptiness deliverances. The signless deliverance is realized by beginning with the contemplation of impermanence (aniccānupassanā). In the Nibbāna Sermons Ven. Ñāṇananda describes this process of insight as follows:
With the dispelling of the perception of permanence, the tendency to grasp a sign or catch a theme is removed. It is due to the perception of permanence that one grasps a sign in accordance with perceptual data. When one neither takes a sign nor gets carried away by its details, there is no aspiration, expectation, or objective by way of craving. When there is no aspiration, one cannot see any purpose or essence to aim at.

It is through the three deliverances, the signless, the desireless, and the void, that the drama of existence comes to an end. The perception of impermanence is the main contributory factor for the cessation of this drama....

Why do we call the vision of the arahant a vacant gaze? At the highest point of the development of the three characteristics impermanence, suffering and not-self, that is, through the three deliverances animitta, appaṇihita and suññata, the "signess", the "undirected" and the "void", the arahant is now looking at the object with a penetrative gaze. That is why it is not possible to say what he is looking at. It is a gaze that sees the cessation of the object, a gaze that penetrates the object, as it were.

This corresponds with what is taught in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, where the contemplation of impermanence is said to result in entrance to the signless:
When he gives attention as impermanent his mind emerges from the sign; his mind enters into the signless.

Which is the supramundane contemplation of the signlessness (animittānupassanā) of all phenomena. Again, the Paṭisambhidāmagga:
Gnosis of contemplation of the signlessness of form... feeling... recognition... fabrications... consciousness... etc., is signless deliverance because it liberates from all signs.

It's worth noting here that signlessness pertains to seeing the signlessness of phenomena, what Ven. Ñāṇananda sometimes refers to as seeing through the object. With the arising of this supramundane gnosis, objects no longer represent anything of significance. And it is this gnosis which is truly liberating. It can't be shaken by any sensory experience because the signlessness of all experience has been fully understood. There is no need whatsoever to slip into a blackout cessation. In The Magic of the Mind Ven. Ñāṇananda offers the following insight into the relationship between signs and significance:
The question of 'seeing what-is-shown', brings us to the relationship between sign and significance. Sense-perception at all levels relies largely on signs. This statement might even appear as a truism since the Pāli word saññā denotes perception as well as 'sign', 'symbol', 'mark' or 'token.' It is due to the processes of grasping and recognition implicit in sense-perception that the sign has come to play such an important part in it. Grasping -- be it physical or mental -- can at best be merely a symbolical affair. The actual point of contact is superficial and localized, but it somehow props up the conceit of grasping. Recognition too, is possible only within arbitrarily circumscribed limits. The law of impermanence is persistently undermining it, but still a conceit of recognition is maintained by progressively ignoring the fact of change....

Furthermore, as the Suttas often make it clear, all percepts as such are to be regarded as mere signs (saññā, nimitta). Hence while the worldling says that he perceives 'things' with the help of signs, the Tathāgata says that all we perceive are mere signs. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches and ideas are, all of them, signs which consciousness pursues. But still the question may be asked: "What do these signs signify?" "Things, of course" -- the Tathāgata would reply. 'Things', however, are not those that the worldling has in mind when he seeks an answer to this question. Lust, hatred and delusion are the 'things' which, according to the teaching of the Tathāgata, are signified by all sense-percepts. "Lust, friend, is a something; hatred is a something; delusion is a something." (M I 298, Mahāvedalla S.) "Lust, friends, is something significative, hatred is something significative, delusion is something significative" (ibid).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:17 am
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
In Concept and Reality Ven. Ñāṇananda equates the experience of featureless/non-manifestative consciousness (anidassana viññāṇa) with the fruition-gnosis samādhi (aññāphala samādhi) of an arahant, which after first attainment can be re-entered later as the arahant's meditation. AN 9.37 describes this samādhi as follows:
Sister, the concentration whereby -- neither pressed down nor forced back, nor with fabrication kept blocked or suppressed -- still as a result of release, contented as a result of standing still, and as a result of contentment one is not agitated: This concentration is said by the Blessed One to be the fruit of gnosis.

On page 61 of Concept and Reality Ven. Ñāṇananda discusses this samādhi:
The unique feature of this samādhi is its very fluxional character. In it there is no such fixity as to justify a statement that it 'depends on' (nissāya) some object (ārammaṇa) as its support -- hence the frustration of gods and men who seek out the basis of the Tathāgata's consciousness. Normally, the jhānas are characterized by an element of fixity on which consciousness finds a footing or a steadying point. It is on this very fixity that the illusion of the ego thrives. In the above jhāna of the emancipated one, however, the ego has melted away in the fire of wisdom which sees the cosmic process of arising and cessation. Not only has the concept "I" (papañca par excellence) undergone combustion, but it has also ignited the data of sensory experience in their entirety. Thus in this jhāna of the Arahant, the world of concepts melts away in the intuitional bonfire of universal impermanence.

This general description also pertains to the supramundane jhāna of streamwinners, once returners, and non-returners as well.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:28 am
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Nibbāna is the extinguishment of fetters. To be precise, the state wherein one experiences the extinguishment (nibbāna) of fetters appropriate to each path and fruition, is supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna). And this state must necessarily arise with the concomitant jhāna factors and other mental factors such as attention (manasikāra) and apperception (saññā), as well as gnosis (ñāṇa). Without the presence of these mental factors there can be no gnosis and therefore no path attainment or fruition attainment.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:57 pm
Title: Re: The Practical Aspects of Establishing Mindfulness
Content:
Good stuff Ian.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:53 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
The Kathāvatthu and the Visuddhimagga both maintain that the cessation of apperception and feeling is not not-conditioned (asaṅkhata) and is not supramundane (lokuttara).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:35 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Ajahn Amaro is "not even familiar with Buddhist beliefs"?  

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:32 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Firstly, nibbāna isn't a "state." Secondly, nibbāna is the cessation of passion, aggression, and delusion. For a learner it is the cessation of the fetters extinguished on each path. The waking states where "suddenly all sensations and six senses stop functioning" are (1) mundane perceptionless samādhis, and (2) cessation of apperception and feeling. Neither of these are supramundane and neither of these are synonymous with experiencing nibbāna.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:34 am
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
This statement is both condescending and inaccurate. What should be let go of is attachment to teachers who contradict what is taught in the Canon.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Well, it doesn't fit with the Paṭisambhidāmagga or the Dhammasaṅgaṇī either. And both of these texts have developed the path structure beyond what is given in the suttas. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:52 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Just to add: Such blackout states are neither form sphere jhāna, nor vipassanā, nor supramundane jhāna accompanied by gnosis (ñāṇa) which arises when one enters the noble path. This supramundane gnosis is the understanding that all phenomena are signless, desireless, and empty. It arises from contemplating the signlessness of all phenomena. The Paṭisambhidāmagga states:
Gnosis of contemplation of the signlessness of form... feeling... recognition... fabrications... consciousness... etc., is signless deliverance because it liberates from all signs.

Thus, this gnosis is the result of the correct contemplation of the signlessness (animittānupassanā) of all phenomena, and not the result of falling into any sort of blackout. The Dhammasaṅgaṇī clearly states that supramundane jhāna is accompanied by the jhāna factors. And the arising of supramundane jhāna is necessary for entering the noble paths and fruitions. A blackout state isn't. The non-arising (anuppāda) and non-continuance (appavatta), etc., which happens at the time of change of lineage (gotrabhu), i.e. when one enters the noble paths, is the non-arising and non-continuance of the fetters and mental outflows specifically abandoned on each noble path, and not the non-arising and non-continuance of the the supramundane jhāna factors themselves. If there are no supramundane jhāna factors and no concomitant gnosis, there is no noble path and no possibility of liberation from fetters and mental outflows.

Also, it's worth mentioning that there is no canonical support for the notion that the noble path consists of two or three mind moments. For a good survey of the relevant passages from the Pāli Tipiṭaka, see Path, Fruit, and Nibbāna (PDF) by Ven. Kheminda.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:07 am
Title: Re: Nagarjuna as the true interpret of the doctrine?
Content:
The discussion is in this thread.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:00 am
Title: Re: Nagarjuna as the true interpret of the doctrine?
Content:
The reference was to Tobes characterization of "radical" in the context of the discussion on Dharma Wheel. I'm suggesting that both the Pāli dhamma and Nāgārjuna are more "radical" than Tobes interpretation. Certainly, the view presented in the Pāli Tipiṭaka accords with what Nāgār­juna was getting at. Ven. Ñāṇananda:
Teach­ers like Nāgār­juna brought to light what was already there [in the Pāli suttas] but was hid­den from view. Unfor­tu­nately his later fol­low­ers turned it in to a vāda.... 

When I first read the Kārikā I too was doubt­ing Ven. Nāgārjuna’s san­ity. But the work needs to be under­stood in the con­text. He was tak­ing a jab at the Sarvāstivādins. To be hon­est, even the oth­ers deserve the rebuke, although they now try to get away by using Sarvās­tivāda as an excuse. How skilled Ven. Nāgār­juna must have been, to com­pose those verses so ele­gantly and fill­ing them with so much mean­ing, like the Dhamma­pada verses. It’s quite amazing.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:47 am
Title: Re: Nagarjuna as the true interpret of the doctrine?
Content:
The Pāli dhamma is every bit as radical, if not moreso, than anything of importance that Nāgārjuna ever said.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:42 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
Already described quite well by Kornfield: "[T]he first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana."

This is a consequence of a realist view: If all conditioned phenomena are truly existent impermanent things, and nibbāna is a truly existent permanent thing, then nibbāna can only be cognized as an utter void completely independent of these so-called truly existent impermanent things. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:43 pm
Title: Re: Resources on Sarvastivada
Content:
The Abhidharmakośa is the root verses. The Abhidharmakośabhāsya is the commentary paragraphs interspersed between the root verses. The Tibetans consider the Abhidharmakośa root verses to be Sarvāstivāda and the Abhidharmakośabhāsya to be Sautrāntika.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:23 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
There are numerous people who appreciate Ven. Ñāṇananda's teachings who were initially inspired by the writings of Ven. Ñāṇavira. Ven. Yogā­nanda is one such person. His meetings with Ven. Ñāṇananda can be read in his Heretic Sage Series.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:32 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Indeed. If the jhāna factors are not present then it isn't supramundane path or fruition attainment either. This blackout emptiness notion is the inevitable consequence entailed by a realist view of dhamma, wherein all conditioned dhammas are considered to be "truly existing things," and therefore path cognitions and fruition cognitions of each of the four paths and fruits must occur within an utterly void vacuum state cessation, which is considered to be the ultimately existent "unconditioned." This notion of path and fruition cognitions is not supported by the Pāli canon. It's largely based on an unsustainable interpretation of the first chapter of the Paṭisambhidāmagga. Also, there is nothing specifically Buddhist about utterly void vacuum state cessations. In fact, precisely this type of stopping the mind is the goal of some non-Buddhist yogic traditions. Therefore, this contentless absorption cannot be equated with Buddhist nibbāna. Moreover, there are now a number of people who've had such experiences sanctioned by "insight meditation" teachers, and who have gone on to proclaim to the world that arahants can still experience lust and the other defiled mental phenomena. Taking all of this into account there is no good reason whatsoever to accept this interpretation of path and fruition cognitions. Void vacuum state cessations are not an adequate nor reliable indication of stream entry or any of the other paths and fruitions. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:08 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
It's from Ven. Amaro's Small Boat, Great Mountain.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:00 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
I was just paraphrasing the professor's own words. Karunadasa's The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma:
What emerges from this Abhidhammic doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself.

He goes on to say that "a dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabhāvasiddha)." This is a completely realist view. And the inevitable consequence entailed by this realist view, wherein all conditioned dhammas are "truly existing things," is that path cognitions and fruition cognitions of each of the four paths and fruits must occur within an utterly void vacuum state cessation, which is considered to be the ultimately existent "unconditioned." This is described by Jack Kornfield:
In Mahasi’s model, enlightenment—or at least stream-entry, the first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana.... But there are a lot of questions around this kind of moment. Sometimes it seems to have enormously transformative effects on people. Other times people have this moment of experience and aren’t really changed by it at all. Sometimes they’re not even sure what happened.

This notion of path and fruition cognitions is not supported by the Pāli canon. Moreover, there are now numerous people who've had such experiences sanctioned by "insight meditation" teachers, and who have gone on to proclaim to the world that arahants can still experience lust and the other defiled mental phenomena. Taking all of this into account there is no good reason whatsoever to accept this interpretation of path and fruition cognitions. Void vacuum state cessations are not an adequate nor reliable indication of stream entry or any of the other paths and fruitions. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:35 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
Either you have failed to understand Ven. Ñāṇananda's commentaries already posted on this thread, or you disagree with them. At any rate, the problem with your assertions are this: deluded cognitions are deluded and are therefore of no value in ascertaining what is or isn't objectively real. An arahants cognitions are measureless and therefore there are no worldly criteria for establishing an objective basis for such cognitions. A learner's cognitions are also designated as measureless when engaged in practice. Thus there are no objective means for establishing what you are trying to propose. It's a fruitless line of investigation. It would be far more beneficial to practice the applications of mindfulness.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:46 pm
Title: Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique
Content:
Ajahn Amaro:
I’ve known people, particularly those who have practiced in the Theravāda tradition, who have been taught and trained that the idea of meditation is to get to a place of cessation. We might get to a place where we don’t feel or see anything; there is awareness but everything is gone. An absence of sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, the body—it all vanishes. And then these students are told, “This is the greatest thing. That’s what there is to look forward to.” The teacher encourages them to put tremendous hours and diligence into their meditation. When one of these students told her teacher that she had arrived at that kind of state, he got really excited. He then asked her, “So what did it feel like?” and she said, “It was like drinking a glass of cold water but without the water and without the glass.” On another occasion she said, “It was like being shut inside a refrigerator.”

This is not the only way of understanding cessation.... When we stop creating sense objects as absolute realities and stop seeing thoughts and feelings as solid things, there is cessation. To see that the world is within our minds is one way of working with these principles. The whole universe is embraced when we realize that it’s happening within our minds. And in that moment when we recognize that it all happens here, it ceases. Its thingness ceases. Its otherness ceases. Its substantiality ceases.

This is just one way of talking and thinking about it. But I find this brings us much closer to the truth, because in that respect, it’s held in check. It’s known. But there’s also the quality of its emptiness. Its insubstantiality is known. We’re not imputing solidity to it, a reality that it doesn’t possess. We’re just looking directly at the world, knowing it fully and completely.

So, what happens when the world ceases? I remember one time Ajahn Sumedho was giving a talk about this same subject. He said, “Now I’m going to make the world completely disappear. I’m going to make the world come to an end.” He just sat there and said: “Okay, are you ready?... The world just ended.... Do you want me to bring it back into being again? Okay...welcome back.”

Nothing was apparent from the outside. It all happens internally. When we stop creating the world, we stop creating each other. We stop imputing the sense of solidity that creates a sense of separation. Yet we do not shut off the senses in any way. Actually, we shed the veneer, the films of confusion, of opinion, of judgment, of our conditioning, so that we can see the way things really are. At that moment, dukkha ceases.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:25 pm
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
The Abhidhammapiṭaka doesn't define conditioned phenomena as paramattha dhammā or paramattha sabhāva. The former does occur once in the Kathāvatthu but it's hardly a ringing endorsement for how this notion of paramattha dhamma later came to be applied and interpreted. Moreover, even someone like Karunadasa admits that the later ābhidhammika treatises present a realist view. As Ven. Ñāṇananda has repeatedly pointed out, this view isn't supported by the suttas or earliest strata of abhidhamma.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:53 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
Attempting to establish an "objective reality" is, at best, an unnecessary and superfluous line of investigation, and at worst, the extreme of "everything exists," which is an assumption dependent upon deluded cognitions. AN 4.24 Kāḷakārāma Sutta:
Thus, monks, a Tathāgata does not imagine a visible thing as apart from seeing, he does not imagine an unseen, he does not imagine a thing worth seeing, he does not imagine a seer. He does not imagine an audible thing as apart from hearing, he does not imagine an unheard, he does not imagine a thing worth hearing, he does not imagine a hearer. He does not imagine a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation, he does not imagine an unsensed, he does not imagine a thing worth sensing, he does not imagine one who senses. He does not imagine a cognizable thing as apart from cognition, he does not imagine an uncognized, he does not imagine a thing worth cognizing, he does not imagine one who cognizes.

Thus, monks, the Tathāgata, being such in regard to all phenomena, seen, heard, sensed and cognized, is such. Moreover than he who is such there is none other higher or more excellent, I declare.

Whatever is seen, heard, sensed,
Or clung to and esteemed as truth by other folk,
Midst those who are entrenched in their own views,
Being such, I hold none as true or false.
This barb I beheld well in advance,
Whereon mankind is hooked, impaled,
I know, I see, 'tis verily so,
No such clinging for the Tathāgatas.

There is no need and no value in constructing an "objective reality" or proving "valid cognitions." The practitioner simply needs to set aside such speculations and return to the practice of the four applications of mindfulness.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:10 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
In terms of relative importance, it's more important to avoid the extreme of "nothing exists" because nihilism can result in not considering the long term consequences of one's actions, which opens the door to the lower realms. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:56 am
Title: Re: Asubha Contemplation on Voice?
Content:
A classic.


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:03 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
The beating of your heart is just the beating of your heart. How you relate to your body is what is important. This can be done either with appropriate attention (yoniso manasikāra) or inappropriate attention (ayoniso manasikāra). Appropriate attention, conjoined with mindfulness, full awareness, concentration, and discernment attends to unsatisfactoriness, the origin of unsatisfactoriness, the cessation of unsatisfactoriness, and the way leading to the cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha, dukkhasamudaya, dukkhanirodha, and dukkhanirodhagāminīpaṭipadā). Using this framework one comprehends arising, passing away, allure, drawbacks, and escape with regard to all phenomena experienced. Or one can pursue frameworks of inappropriate attention. Some of the unskillful types of inappropriate attention have already been indicated.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:09 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
The statement was in reference to phenomenological experience, not ontological theories.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:41 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
From the perspective of practicing dhamma, functional things can be functional things without any need for metaphysical assumptions or ontological theories, all of which are endlessly debatable and are "a result of reasoning from the wrong end." As Ven. Ñāṇananda has quite clearly and insightfully indicated:
Sense-objects are therefore signs which have become significant in themselves owing to our ignorance that their significance depends on the psychological mainsprings of lust, hatred and delusion. This, in other words, is a result of reasoning from the wrong end (ayoniso manasikāra) which leads both the philosopher and the scientist alike into a topsy-turvydom of endless theorising.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:40 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
"I" and "my".... 

Ven. Ñāṇananda, Seeing Through: A Guide to Insight Meditation:
Ānāpānasati : 'āna' means breathing in; 'apāna' means breathing out. Breathing in and breathing out. This is what we do everyday. We breath in and out. Between these two there is something rather imperceptible, something that is overlooked. But that is the very thing which perpetuates saṁsāra. Why do we breath in? We breathe in to maintain this existence. That is to maintain craving and ignorance -- to perpetuate this saṁsāra. We breathe in to preserve this body from destruction and death. There is grasping or 'upādāna' as an imperceptible gasping for breath. In short there is both 'gasping' as well as grasping. Beneath it lies craving and ignorance. There is supposed to be an 'I' behind this breathing -- a breather....

It is after holding on to the breath that one sets about doing the work one has to do. Within this very grasping lies the ego -- 'my ability', 'my strength', 'I can do' and all that sort of thing.

So, one takes in a breath and holds on to it, but he has to let go of it as well. This letting go happens out of sheer necessity -- per force. To let go of the breath that way, we call 'breathing out'. We breathe-in with some special purpose in mind -- to preserve our life. If it is possible to hold on to the breath for ever, for this purpose, so much the better, but we can't. Since we cannot do it, we have to let go of the breath after a while, whether we like it or not.

So then here too we seem to have a case of 'adāna' and 'patinissaga' -- a taking up and a letting-go, at least on the face of it. There is a stage in 'ānāpānasati' at which this insight emerges. If we analyze the last four of the 16 steps in ānāpānasati meditation taught by the Buddha, we can understand to some extent the way of emergence of this insight.


All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:14 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
The dhamma is indeed timeless. There's no contradiction whatsoever. Let's take a look at what Ven. Ñāṇananda has to say about "reality." In The Magic of the Mind he offers the following insight:
The question of 'seeing what-is-shown', brings us to the relationship between sign and significance. Sense-perception at all levels relies largely on signs. This statement might even appear as a truism since the Pāli word saññā denotes perception as well as 'sign', 'symbol', 'mark' or 'token.' It is due to the processes of grasping and recognition implicit in sense-perception that the sign has come to play such an important part in it. Grasping -- be it physical or mental -- can at best be merely a symbolical affair. The actual point of contact is superficial and localized, but it somehow props up the conceit of grasping. Recognition too, is possible only within arbitrarily circumscribed limits. The law of impermanence is persistently undermining it, but still a conceit of recognition is maintained by progressively ignoring the fact of change....

Furthermore, as the Suttas often make it clear, all percepts as such are to be regarded as mere signs (saññā, nimitta). Hence while the worldling says that he perceives 'things' with the help of signs, the Tathāgata says that all we perceive are mere signs. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches and ideas are, all of them, signs which consciousness pursues. But still the question may be asked: "What do these signs signify?" "Things, of course" -- the Tathāgata would reply. 'Things', however, are not those that the worldling has in mind when he seeks an answer to this question. Lust, hatred and delusion are the 'things' which, according to the teaching of the Tathāgata, are signified by all sense-percepts. "Lust, friend, is a something; hatred is a something; delusion is a something." (M I 298, Mahāvedalla S.) "Lust, friends, is something significative, hatred is something significative, delusion is something significative" (ibid).

And then the part which deserves repeated consideration:
It is a fact often overlooked by the metaphysician that the reality attributed to sense-data is necessarily connected with their evocative power, that is, their ability to produce effects. The reality of a thing is usually registered in terms of its impact on the experiential side. This is the acid-test which an object is required to undergo to prove its existence in the Court of Reality. In the reference to materiality as 'manifestative and offering resistance' (D III 217, Sangiti S.) the validity of this test seems to have been hinted at. Now, the 'objects' of sense which we grasp and recognize as existing out-there, derive their object-status from their impact or evocative power. Their ability to produce effects in the form of sense-reaction is generally taken to be the criterion of their reality. Sense-objects are therefore signs which have become significant in themselves owing to our ignorance that their significance depends on the psychological mainsprings of lust, hatred and delusion. This, in other words, is a result of reasoning from the wrong end (ayoniso manasikāra) which leads both the philosopher and the scientist alike into a topsy-turvydom of endless theorising.

What most worldlings unquestioningly take to be "real," due to ascribing significance to the contents of deluded cognition, is nothing more than deluded cognition. Learners and arahants have understood deluded cognition to be false and have abandoned it (or are in the process of abandoning it in the case of learners). In this way they develop a "measureless mind." Seeing through the limitations of signs and symbols and language, they realize that there is no need -- and no possible way -- of trying to pin down this measureless freedom of absence by using signs and language. There is no point in attempting to construct and systematize a valid "reality." They've done what was needed to be done. The teachings they offer diagnose the problems of deluded cognition and point out the ways to unravel and eventually abandon passion, aggression, and delusion. And this path is as relevant today as it was 2500 years ago. It's quite amazing -- awe inspiring.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:53 pm
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
Sure. I've heard Western Buddhist teachers give teachings which were no different from what someone like Wayne Dyer offers. A rose-colored picture which amounts to attempting to improve saṃsāra. Quite inaccurate and therefore misleading.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:40 pm
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
There are numerous well established traditional "Buddhisms." Each with a very long history. To learn even one tradition beyond mere generalizations requires many years of both studying and practicing that particular tradition's teachings with teachers from that tradition. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:25 pm
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
I'd suggest that the point is to see the illusion clearly for what it is, and in this way proceed to abandon all infatuation and distress regarding its manifold colorful and dramatic representations.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:19 am
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
The view that TNH is presenting is pretty much straight up Huayan Dharma. His style of expression is the only difference. Huayan has had a significant influence on many of the greatest minds of East Asian Buddhism. Cleary's Entry Into the Inconceivable and Chang's Buddhist Teaching of Totality are decent introductions to Huayan teachings (both of which have some translated treatises included). 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:29 am
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
Yeah, I think the four āsava-s are general categories. The āsava of views is said to be eliminated upon stream entry, thus this category would include any wrong views associated with identity view, and so on. 

I find that the ten fetters offer a more precise treatment of the same phenomena to be eliminated. Anyway, MN 02 goes into the practical details regarding how to work with the āsava-s.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:03 am
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
LOL.... Add beer to that mix and....


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:26 am
Title: Re: Looking for a sutta on self & feelings
Content:
Maybe DN 15 Mahānidāna Sutta:
Now, one who says, 'Feeling is my self,' should be addressed as follows: 'There are these three feelings, my friend — feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, and feelings of neither pleasure nor pain. Which of these three feelings do you assume to be the self?' At a moment when a feeling of pleasure is sensed, no feeling of pain or of neither pleasure nor pain is sensed. Only a feeling of pleasure is sensed at that moment. At a moment when a feeling of pain is sensed, no feeling of pleasure or of neither pleasure nor pain is sensed. Only a feeling of pain is sensed at that moment. At a moment when a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain is sensed, no feeling of pleasure or of pain is sensed. Only a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain is sensed at that moment.

Now, a feeling of pleasure is inconstant, fabricated, dependent on conditions, subject to passing away, dissolution, fading, and cessation. A feeling of pain is inconstant, fabricated, dependent on conditions, subject to passing away, dissolution, fading, and cessation. A feeling of neither pleasure nor pain is inconstant, fabricated, dependent on conditions, subject to passing away, dissolution, fading, and cessation. Having sensed a feeling of pleasure as 'my self,' then with the cessation of one's very own feeling of pleasure, 'my self' has perished. Having sensed a feeling of pain as 'my self,' then with the cessation of one's very own feeling of pain, 'my self' has perished. Having sensed a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain as 'my self,' then with the cessation of one's very own feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, 'my self' has perished.

Thus he assumes, assuming in the immediate present a self inconstant, entangled in pleasure and pain, subject to arising and passing away, he who says, 'Feeling is my self.' Thus in this manner, Ananda, one does not see fit to assume feeling to be the self.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:27 am
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
It has always seemed more intuitive to me to consider the āsava-s as "outflows" (effluents). But maybe this influx + outflow double entendre is worth considering? No one is born and raised in a complete vacuum. I'd suggest that this is the "negative" consensual delusion side of "interdependence." 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:05 am
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
I don't know if he chose California or if it chose him? But either way it probably beats the -18°C that I'm currently experiencing.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:25 am
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
Indeed. Anyone who understands the forward sequence of dependent arising to be a diagnosis of deluded cognition, and how such delusion manifests, will no longer be able to ascribe to the notion that conditioned phenomena are "ultimate realities." A few more passages from the Nibbāna Sermons may help illustrate the difference with regard to view:
Nibbāna Sermon 08

An insight meditator, too, goes through a similar experience when he contemplates on name-and-form, seeing the four elements as empty and void of essence, which will give him at least an iota of the conviction that this drama of existence is empty and insubstantial. He will realize that, as in the case of the dumb show, he is involved with things that do not really exist. This amounts to an understanding that the factors of the name group are dependent on the form group, and vice versa.

Seeing the reciprocal relationship between name-and-form, he is disinclined to dabble in concepts or gulp down a dose of prescriptions. If form is dependent on name, and name is dependent on form, both are void of essence. What is essential here, is the very understanding of essencelessness. If one sits down to draw up lists of concepts and prescribe them, it would only lead to a mental constipation. Instead of release there will be entanglement. Such a predicament is not unlikely.


Nibbāna Sermon 14

This is something extremely wonderful about the arahant. He realizes the cessation of existence in his attainment to the fruit of arahant-hood. How does he come to realize the cessation of existence? Craving is extinct in him, hence there is no grasping. Where there is no grasping, there is no existence. Because there is no existence, birth, decay and death, along with sorrow and lamentation, cease altogether.

From the foregoing we could well infer that all those concepts like birth, decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair, come about as a result of a heap of pervert perceptions, pervert thoughts and pervert views, based on the conceit of an existence, the conceit 'am'.

These three kinds of perversions known as saññāvipallāsa, cittavipallāsa and diṭṭhivipallāsa give rise to a mass of concepts of an imaginary nature. The entire mass of suffering, summed up by the terms birth, decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair, are basically of a mental origin....

[Sn 1055-1056, Mettagūmāṇavapucchā Sutta:]

"Whatever you may know to be
Above, below and across in the middle,
Dispel the delight and the tendency to dwell in them,
Then your consciousness will not remain in existence.
A monk, endowed with understanding,
Thus dwelling mindful and heedful,
As he fares along giving up all possessions,
Would abandon even here and now
Birth, decay, sorrow, lamentation and suffering."

The word idh'eva occurring in the second verse is highly significant, in that it means the abandonment of all those things here and now, not leaving it for an existence to come. In the Mahāviyūhasutta of the Sutta Nipāta also a similar emphasis is laid on this idea of 'here and now'. About the arahant it is said that he has no death or birth here and now -- cutūpapāto idha yassa natthi, "to whom, even here, there is no death or birth". In this very world he has transcended them by making those two concepts meaningless....

Existence is a conceit deep rooted in the mind, which gives rise to a heap of pervert notions. Its cessation, therefore, has also to be accomplished in the mind and by the mind.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:42 pm
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
This relates to whether the term āsavā should be interpreted and translated as "influxes" or "outflows." Interpreted as influxes would include the influx of social and cultural views that any person -- regardless of time or place -- is embedded in. These need to eventually be confronted, challenged, and eliminated. This process undermines consensual worldviews, and they will eventually cease to "flow out" as conceptual proliferations. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:58 pm
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
Sure. Plus he lives in California (where retro-romanticism and new age love-and-light-trips are still quite common).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:31 pm
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Thanissaro The full article.
Content:
Ven. Ṭhānissaro is stating the obvious: Most people approach the dhamma through a variety of personal and cultural filters. The interpretive filters will vary depending upon the time and place of the individual, but human beings are born embedded in historical, social, and cultural situations, and relate to the dhamma with these learned frameworks. Moreover, no matter what society one investigates -- East or West -- the majority of people who consider themselves to be "Buddhist," aren't willing or able to see through the consensual norms of their social peers and then go the extra step and actually begin to renounce worldly views. I'd also add that in the West, Rationalism has had just as much influence on how the dhamma is interpreted as Romanticism has (FTR, I'm not implying that the two are unrelated). Rationalism and scientific materialism is generally still the sanctioned worldview taught in secondary and post-secondary education. In academic circles Charles Darwin and Adam Smith exert much more influence than Goethe or Emerson do. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:55 am
Title: Re: Zen and Advaita masters: all putthujana?
Content:
One man's "awakened sage" is another man's "heretic."

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:13 am
Title: Re: Zen and Advaita masters: all putthujana?
Content:
There is a quite well known transcription of a tape recording by Ajahn Dune, which apparently is of him reading a translation of Huangbo Xiyun (Huangbo's teachings were translated into Thai by Ajahn Buddhadasa, not directly from the Chinese but from the English translation of John Blofeld):
All Buddhas and all beings in the world are nothing but the single citta. Outside this single citta nothing at all exists. The single citta, free from the conventional self, is something that was not made and is something, which cannot be destroyed. It is not a thing with color, such as green or yellow and has neither form nor appearance. It is not included in existing things or non-existing things. One cannot have the view that it is something new or old, longer short, large or small because it is beyond all limitations, beyond all measuring, beyond labels, beyond leaving a trace and beyond all comparisons.

This single citta is before our very eyes but when we use reason to conceive of it as a "thing" or "self", try it! We will immediately be mistaken. It is like emptiness that is without limitation and cannot be conceived or measured.

The single citta, this alone is Buddha. There is no difference between Buddha and all worldly beings except that worldly beings cling to the various worldly forms causing them to search for "Buddha Nature" (Buddha Bhava) externally. That very search makes them miss "Buddha Nature". This is like using Buddha to search for Buddha or the citta to search for the citta. Even though they may try as hard as they can for a full eon, they will never achieve "Buddha Bhava".

They do not know that if they stop thinking and conceiving and cease their confusion due to this searching "Buddha" will appear before their eyes because the citta, itself, is Buddha.

Compare with another talk by Ajahn Dune:
Mind is “the knowing”. You have to establish mindfulness there.

Mind and “the knowing” are the same. There is no difference. All the differences perceived are due to wrong thinking, not understanding, not knowing – ignorance. Not understanding/misunderstanding (ignorance) leads us to create unending kamma.

When the mind sees the (pure) mind, everything will be destroyed. Defilements (kilesa) and cravings (tanha) will be destroyed, ended.

[Student:] When all defilements and cravings are destroyed, is that the stage of arahants? Is the mind still there?

[Ajahn:] The mind is still there. But there is no more impurity, no more defilements or mental fabrications.

True dhamma (saddhamma) is this (pure) mind. True dhamma has never been created. It will not be destroyed. True dhamma has always been there even when we are ignorant. True dhamma is also not created when ignorance is destroyed, when we are enlightened.

(Pure) mind is true dhamma that has always been, and will simply be like this. It does not change. When there is wisdom (panna), ignorance (avijja) will be destroyed. When the mind sees mind, all kilesa ceases.

Also Ajahn Mun:
The mind is something more radiant than anything else can be, but because counterfeits — passing defilements — come and obscure it, it loses its radiance, like the sun when obscured by clouds. Don't go thinking that the sun goes after the clouds. Instead, the clouds come drifting along and obscure the sun.

So meditators, when they know in this manner, should do away with these counterfeits by analyzing them shrewdly, as explained in the strategies of clear insight. When they develop the mind to the stage of the primal mind, this will mean that all counterfeits are destroyed, or rather, counterfeit things won't be able to reach into the primal mind, because the bridge making the connection will have been destroyed. Even though the mind may then still have to come into contact with the preoccupations of the world, its contact will be like that of a bead of water rolling over a lotus leaf.

And Ajahn Chah:
When the mind transcends conditions, it knows the unconditioned. The mind becomes the unconditioned, the state which no longer contains conditioning factors. The mind is no longer conditioned by the concerns of the world, conditions no longer contaminate the mind. Pleasure and pain no longer affect it. Nothing can affect the mind or change it, the mind is assured, it has escaped all constructions. Seeing the true nature of conditions and the determined, the mind becomes free.

This freed mind is called the unconditioned, that which is beyond the power of constructing influences. If the mind doesn't really know conditions and determinations, it is moved by them. Encountering good, bad, pleasure, or pain, it proliferates about them.

And also:
Now, examining the true nature of the mind, you can observe that in its natural state, it has no preoccupations or issues prevailing upon it. It's like a piece of cloth or a flag that has been tied to the end of a pole. As long as it's on its own and undisturbed, nothing will happen to it....

The purpose of the practice, then, is to seek inwardly, searching and investigating until you reach the original mind. The original mind is also known as the pure mind. The pure mind is the mind without attachment. It doesn't get affected by mind-objects. In other words, it doesn't chase after the different kinds of pleasant and unpleasant mind-objects. Rather, the mind is in a state of continuous knowing and wakefulness - thoroughly mindful of all it is experiencing. When the mind is like this, no pleasant or unpleasant mind-objects it experiences will be able to disturb it. The mind doesn't 'become' anything. In other words, nothing can shake it. Why? Because there is awareness. The mind knows itself as pure. It has evolved its own, true independence; it has reached its original state. How is it able to bring this original state into existence? Through the faculty of mindfulness wisely reflecting and seeing that all things are merely conditions arising out of the influence of elements, without any individual being controlling them.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:06 pm
Title: Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?
Content:
It's important to be precise as to what exactly is meant by mental-noting. The following excerpt from Ven. Ñāṇananda's, Seeing Through: A Guide to Insight Meditation, clearly explains the refining process of vipassanābhāvanā:
Directing these two factors is what is called meditative attention, mental-noting or noticing (manasikāra). Though the same term 'mental-noting' or'manasikāra' is used throughout the instructions on insight meditation, there is a need to redefine the term as one progresses in one's meditation. At the outset this mental noting is rather gross. One has to start from where one stands. So, the usual instructions in Insight Meditation would imply a mode of attending that goes slightly deeper than the way of attending in the world. As implied by the basic instruction on sense-restraint, 'na nimittaggāhī nānubyañjanaggāhī', one does not grasp at a sign or its details in what is seen, heard and so forth. Instead, one summarily dismisses the visual object after mentally noting it as 'form', 'form'. Also, in the case of sound, one just notes it as 'sound', 'sound', without going into details. This is the mode of mental-noting recommended at the very outset.

But in this mode of mental noting there are certain gross elements. One becomes aware of these as one progresses in insight meditation. One becomes aware that in this type of mental-noting as 'form', 'form' or 'sound', 'sound', one presupposes an object. That is to say, these things get object-status by the very fact of mental-attention. Of course, in order to attend, there has to be an object. But as one goes deeper in insight meditation, one realizes that an object by definition is what one grasps (ārammaṇa) - what one hangs on to (ālambana).

Whenever there is grasping, there is ignorance present. Grasping is something that leads to the perpetuation of ignorance. But as the phrase 'anupubba sikkhā, anupubba kiriyā, anupubba paṭipadā' implies, there is a gradual training, a gradual mode of action, a gradual path in this meditative attention as well. So it is by stages that one arrives at this realization. At the preliminary stage, one avoids the usual mode of attention in the world such as 'woman', 'woman', 'man', 'man' in the case of a visual object, thus dispensing with those details which lead to various unskillful states of mind and attends to those visual objects in such a way as not to encourage those unskillful mental states. So one is content with attending to those visual or auditory objects as 'form' or 'sound'.

However as one proceeds in Insight Meditation, one comes to reflect that in this mode of attention, there is present a certain illusion - a wrong notion one has been cherishing throughout 'saṁsāra'. That is, the concept of two ends and a middle. When one notes a visual object as 'a form' and an auditory object as 'a sound', there is a kind of bifurcation between the eye and form, the ear and the sound. So thereby one is perpetuating the illusion, the wrong notion, of two ends. Whenever there are the two ends, there is also the middle. In short, this way of mental noting leaves room for a subject-object relationship. There is the meditator on one side, whoever it may be, and there is the object that comes to his mind; and he attends to it as an object, even though he may not go into its details. Now the meditator has to break through this barrier as well. He has to break this bondage. Why?

In the case of 'saññā' or perception, there are the six kinds of percepts - rūpa saññā, sadda saññā, gandha saññā, rasa saññā, phoṭṭhabba saññā, dhamma saññā (i.e., the percepts of form, sound, smell, taste, touch and idea). These are the six objects of the senses. The Buddha has compared the aggregate of perception to a mirage. Now if perception is mirage, what is 'rūpa saññā' or a visual percept? That also must be a mirage. What about 'sadda saññā'? What about the auditory percept or what strikes the ear? That too must be a mirage. Though it is not something that one sees with the eye, it has the nature of a mirage.

To take as real what is of a mirage-nature, is a delusion. It is something that leads to a delusion. It is an illusion that leads to a delusion. In order to understand deeply this mirage-nature in sensory perception, there is a need for a more refined way of mental attending. So the meditator, instead of attending to these objects as 'form', 'form' or 'sound', 'sound', moves a step further and notes them as 'seeing' or 'hearing'. Now he attends to these sense-percepts even more briefly, not allowing the mind to go far - as 'seeing- seeing ', 'hearing- hearing', 'feeling-feeling','thinking-thinking'.

In short, the attempt here, is to escape the net of 'saññā' or perception and to limit oneself to the bare awareness. To stop short just at the bare awareness. This is an attempt to escape the net of language, the net of logic and also to be free from the duality of two ends which involves a middle. Everywhere one is confronted with a subject-object relationship. There is one who grasps and something to be grasped. There is a seer and an object seen. But this way of attending leaves room for delusion.

Now, if perception is a mirage, in order to get at this mirage nature, one has to be content with attending simply as 'seeing, seeing'. One way or the other it is just a seeing or just a hearing. Thereby he stops short at the bare awareness. He stops short at the bare seeing, bare hearing, bare feeling and bare thinking. He does not grant it an object status. He does not cognize it as an object existing in the world. He does not give it a name.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:49 pm
Title: Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam
Content:
Ven. Ñāṇananda, Seeing Through: A Guide to Insight Meditation:
The Buddha has compared the aggregate of perception to a mirage. Now if perception is mirage, what is 'rūpa saññā' or a visual percept? That also must be a mirage. What about 'sadda saññā'? What about the auditory percept or what strikes the ear? That too must be a mirage. Though it is not something that one sees with the eye, it has the nature of a mirage. To take as real what is of a mirage-nature, is a delusion. It is something that leads to a delusion. It is an illusion that leads to a delusion. In order to understand deeply this mirage-nature in sensory perception, there is a need for a more refined way of mental attending.
 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:13 am
Title: Re: Kâma (sensual pleasures)
Content:
Chanda can be either skillful or unskillful. Kāma is never regarded as skillful.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:12 pm
Title: Re: Kâma (sensual pleasures)
Content:
That passage is also qualified by "taṇhāvatthukā taṇhārammaṇā kāmanīyaṭṭhena rajanīyaṭṭhena madanīyaṭṭhena kāmā ime vuccanti vatthukāmā."

The problem with universals is that they are abstractions. An individual mind-stream only ever experiences unique clusters of phenomena at any given time. And even within the same mental continuum, no two experiences are exactly the same. 

And quite specifically, it is entirely contingent upon a cognition being accompanied by lobha (kāma, raga, abhijjhā, tanhā) that its particular object can meaningfully be designated as vatthukāma.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:27 pm
Title: Re: Vipassana: conceptual or non-conceptual?
Content:
The individuation of particular dhammas is also dependent upon apperception (saññā). As are the recognition of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and selflessness (i.e. aniccasaññā, dukkhasaññā, anattasaññā).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:10 am
Title: Re: Kâma (sensual pleasures)
Content:
As per usual, your qualms have nothing to do with what I posted. I have never once conflated "strands of sensual pleasure" with "sensual pleasure." 

The Mahāniddesa clearly qualifies vatthukāmā with manāpika:
Katame vatthukāmā? Manāpikā rūpā manāpikā saddā manāpikā gandhā manāpikā rasā manāpikā phoṭṭhabbā; attharaṇā pāvuraṇā dāsidāsā ajeḷakā kukkuṭasūkarā hatthigavāssavaḷavā khettaṃ vatthu hiraññaṃ suvaṇṇaṃ gāmanigamarājadhāniyo raṭṭhañca janapado ca koso ca koṭṭhāgārañca, yaṃ kiñci rajanīyaṃ vatthu – vatthukāmā.

For your interpretation to be correct, there would be no need to qualify rūpa, etc., with manāpika. But if you want to think all forms, etc., are strands of sensual pleasure, then that's fine by me.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:25 am
Title: Re: Kâma (sensual pleasures)
Content:
SN 3.12 Pañcarāja Sutta confirms that the very forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects which are agreeable to one person, are disagreeable to another.

In SN 36.19 Pañcakaṅga Sutta the Buddha tells Ven. Ānanda that whatever pleasure or happiness arises in dependence on the five strands of sensual pleasure is called sensual pleasure. MN 66 Laṭukikopama Sutta states that this sensual pleasure is a "filthy pleasure, a worldly pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And I say that this pleasure is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared."

Itivuttaka 72 informs us that renunciation is the escape from sensual pleasures.

The distinction between the five strands of sensual pleasure and the appropriate objects to be employed for mental development is indicated in SN 47.6 Sakuṇagghi Sutta, which clearly differentiates between the five strands of sensual pleasure and the four applications of mindfulness (satipaṭṭhānā). In this discourse one is instructed to avoid wandering into the range of the five strands of sensual pleasure and instead remain in one's own proper range of the four satipaṭṭhānas:
Do not stray, monks, into what is not your own range and is the domain of others. Māra will gain access to those who stray into what is not their own range and is the domain of others. Māra will get a hold on them.

And what, for a monk, is not his own range and is the domain of others? The five strands of sensual pleasure.... These, for a monk, are not his own range and are the domain of others.

Move, monks, in what is your own range, your own ancestral domain. Māra will not gain access to those who move in their own range, their own ancestral domain. Māra will not get a hold on them.

And what, for a monk, is his own range, his own ancestral domain? The four applications of mindfulness. Which four? Here monks, a monk remains contemplating the body in the body, ardent, fully aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and unhappiness with regard to the world. He remains contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... phenomena in phenomena, ardent, fully aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and unhappiness with regard to the world. This, for a monk, is his own range, his own ancestral domain.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:31 pm
Title: Re: A Meta-discussion about mettā during discussions?
Content:
Indeed.


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:23 pm
Title: Re: Is dukkha just psychological?
Content:
If the origin of dukkha is abandoned, then the cessation of dukkha is realized. The origin of dukkha is craving sensual pleasure (kāmataṇhā), craving existence (bhavataṇhā), craving non-existence (vibhavataṇhā). When you abandon these you will have your answer.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:15 pm
Title: Re: Kâma (sensual pleasures)
Content:
The passage from MN 150 includes anyone who is practicing for the removal of passion, aggression, and delusion, not just arahants who are already free from passion, aggression, and delusion, and are free of the three types of craving.

Moreover, if the forms, etc., of the wilderness were strands of sensual pleasure, then it would be completely inappropriate for Mahākassapa (Thag 18) to find this scenery delightful (manorama), enjoyable (ramma), and beautiful (rucira). It would also be inappropriate and inadvisable for MN 121 to state that the practitioner's "mind enters into that apperception of forest and acquires confidence, steadiness, and decision," as this apperception and other concomitant mental factors arise in dependence upon the visible sensory sphere consisting of "the ridges and hollows, the rivers and ravines, the tracts of stumps and thorns, the mountains and irregular places." As an object-support for developing calm (samatha) in the course of attaining jhāna, these forms cannot be strands of sensual pleasure. If they were, any concomitant pleasure and happiness which would arise in dependence upon these sensory objects would be inappropriate and not worth development (bhāvanā).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:52 pm
Title: Re: Kâma (sensual pleasures)
Content:
It's the place to discuss the strands of sensual pleasure (kāmagunā). MN 150 Nagaravindeyya Sutta informs us that one practicing for the removal of passion resorts to a remote location where there are none of the five strands of sensual pleasure to contact and delight in:
[T]hose venerable ones resort to remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest. For there are no forms cognizable by the eye there of a kind that they could look at and delight in. There are no sounds cognizable by the ear there of a kind that they could listen to and delight in. There are no odors cognizable by the nose there of a kind that they could smell and delight in. There are no flavors cognizable by the tongue there of a kind that they could taste and delight in. There are no tactual objects cognizable by the body there of a kind that they could touch and delight in.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:38 pm
Title: Re: Is dukkha just psychological?
Content:
From the above it is saṅkhāradukkhatā -- the unsatisfactoriness of fabrications -- which is dukkha in an all pervasive sense. All fabrications are unsatisfactory because they are impermanent. They are always becoming "otherwise." Dukkhadukkhatā and vipariṇāmadukkhatā, on the other hand, are only experienced on certain occasions. 

I'm not implying that you don't understand this Peter, but your post gives context for bringing out these different meanings of dukkha.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:37 am
Title: Re: Is dukkha just psychological?
Content:
I agree. And I agree that "psychological" is not the same as "mental" (cetasika). I think you have pointed out something quite relevant here. It's best to be as precise and accurate as possible when talking about dhamma.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:30 am
Title: Re: Is dukkha just psychological?
Content:
Less "us" will result in less passion, aggression, delusion, and therefore much less dukkha. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:27 am
Title: Re: Is dukkha just psychological?
Content:
There are plenty of contemporary practitioners who do not consider mind to be a sub-entity with discrete existence. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:09 am
Title: Re: Kâma (sensual pleasures)
Content:
The Buddha wasn't interested in substance metaphysics. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:14 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
The bottom line is this: I can find nothing at all compelling or redeeming in your enterprise. I have access to very good teachers. I have access to all relevant source texts in Pāli, Sanskrit, and Tibetan. None of my teachers, Theravāda or Mahāyāna, agree with your jhāna theory. None of the Indian texts, Theravāda/Sthaviravāda or Yogācāra, agree with your jhāna theory. You may not find this significant or compelling. You may continue to employ hermeneutic gymnastics to force your jhāna theory into the Pāli texts. That's fine by me. I wish you well.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:12 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
This is getting very old. There is far more to hermeneutic interpretation and translation than grammatical considerations. Every time one of your interpretive moves is shown to be unsustainable, you just create another pseudo-problem, and so on and so on. Your interpretation of MN 111 isn't supported by the text itself. And this is evident in every case. Neither the suttas, the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, the Mahāvibhāṣā, nor the Abhidharmakośabhāṣya (i.e. all major Indian Sthaviravāda texts), support the jhāna theory you are trying to establish. Of course, you're free to perform all the hermeneutic cartwheels and somersaults you wish in your attempt to force your jhāna theory into these texts. Personally, I can find nothing redeeming in such an enterprise. None of my teachers, Theravāda or Mahāyāna, agree with your jhāna theory. None of the Indian texts, Sthaviravāda or Yogācāra, agree with your jhāna theory. Period.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:58 am
Title: Re: Goodbye for now.
Content:
Good for you Individual. There is a wide world of Dhamma/Dharma out there. May you find a path that leads to trackless freedom.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:23 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
These mental factors are all concomitant with one object-support (ārammaṇa). Thus there is no difficulty whatsoever.

Something which really needs to be addressed is that anyone who relies on the jhāna theory of Ven. Brahmavamso (as well as many people who rely on the Visuddhimagga jhāna without a careful study of all relevant older material) is going to have a very different understanding of what jhāna is, than someone who relies on the Tipiṭaka as canonical authority and has also studied other early para-canonical Pāḷi and other Sthaviravāda treatises.

For example, in The Jhānas Ven. Brahmavamso describes singleness of mind as follows:
One-pointedness describes the mindfulness that is so sharply focused on a minute area of existence. It is one-pointed in space because it only sees the point source of bliss, together with a small area surrounding the bliss caused by the first jhāna wobble.

But the canon offers a much different understanding of singleness of mind (citta ekagga, cittekaggatā). For example, AN 4.12 Sīla Sutta:
If while he is walking, standing, sitting, or reclining, a monk is free from greed and ill will, from sloth and torpor, from restlessness and worry, and has discarded doubt, then his will has become strong and impregnable; his mindfulness is alert and unclouded; his body is calm and unexcited; his mind is concentrated and collected (samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ).

And also, differing from Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna, the canon describes the mind in jhāna as vast and expansive. MN 127 describes the expansive liberation of mind (mahaggatā cetovimutti), which is a synonym for the mastery of jhāna, as follows:
And what, householder, is the expansive liberation of mind? Here a monk abides resolved upon an area the size of the root of one tree, pervading it as expansive: this is called the expansive liberation of mind. Here a monk abides resolved upon an area the size of the roots of two or three trees, pervading it as expansive: this too is called the expansive liberation of mind. Here a monk abides resolved upon an area the size of one village, pervading it as expansive ... an area the size of two or three villages... an area the size of one major kingdom... an area the size of two or three major kingdoms... an area the size of the earth bounded by the ocean, pervading it as expansive: this too is called the expansive liberation of mind.

As happens in every case, these canonical references are completely incompatible with Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna theory. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:01 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
Again, it is saññā which identifies, individuates, differentiates unique particulars, not vitakka or vicāra.

Also, I have included the post quoting Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna teachings, not in an attempt at personal attack, but because Tan's PDF which you posted is, in part, an attempt to establish the canonical authority of Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna teachings, and in the process presents a critique of Bhante G's jhāna teachings. Therefore, Ven. Brahmavamso's influence here should be considered.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:37 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
MN 111 informs us that in the first seven attainments phenomena are differentiated and known as they occur:
these phenomena were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him these phenomena arose, known they were present, known they disappeared.
This is a description of vipassanā of phenomena one by one as they occurred (anupadadhammavipassanāya hoti). But according to Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna, there can be no comprehension within jhāna. In The Jhānas Ven. Brahmavamso states:
When perspective is removed, so is comprehension. Thus in jhāna, not only is there no sense of time, but also there is no comprehension of what is going on.

This lack of comprehension precludes any differentiation and knowing of phenomena one by one as they occur in jhāna. For Ven. Brahmavamso this differentiation and knowing of mental factors is impossible within jhāna. He continues:
Furthermore, the ultra-stillness of mindfulness in jhāna freezes the activity of mind called comprehension to the extent that, while in jhāna, one can hardly make sense of one's experience. The landmarks of jhāna are only recognized later, after emerging and reviewing.

Therefore, according to Ven. Brahmavamso, the MN 111 statement that "these phenomena were defined by him one by one as they occurred," would be impossible. This passage would have to be discarded for all of the first seven attainments and replaced by the passage: "He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the phenomena that had passed, ceased and changed, thus: 'So indeed, these phenomena, not having been, come into being; having been they vanished.'"

But in the sutta this passage only pertains to the final two attainments because in the final two attainments phenomena cannot be differentiated and known as they occur. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:46 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
Read the Psm in toto. The Psm allows for the development of vipassanā pre-jhāna, within jhāna, and post-jhāna.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:25 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
Of course you will. I will go with vipassanā pertaining to both (i.e. within jhāna and post-jhāna). This is the intention of the discourse, and supported by the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, the Mahāvibhāṣā, and the Abhidharmakośabhāṣya (i.e. all major Indian Sthaviravāda texts).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:35 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
Anyway, MN 111, the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and the Dhammasaṅgaṇī are all canonical authorities which support Bhante G's teachings on developing vipassanā within jhāna.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:46 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
Hmmm... I don't think that the text has ever been interpreted that way. But I'm tired and have to catch a nap. I'll look at it closer in the morning.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:26 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
The phrase anupadadhammavipassanāya hoti (vipassanā of phenomena one by one as they occurred) which is found at the start of the sutta, connects vipassanā with the passage common to the first seven attainments:
tyāssa dhammā anupadavavatthitā honti; tyāssa dhammā viditā uppajjanti, viditā upaṭṭhahanti, viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.

these phenomena were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him these phenomena arose, known they were present, known they disappeared.
Therefore this passage pertains to vipassanā.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:07 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
These 56 factors are not "common to each and every citta." They are common to skillful kāmāvacara cittas accompanied by somanassasa and associated with ñāṇa and skillful rūpāvacarajjhāna cittas. (There are altogether eight categories of skillful kāmāvacara cittas. The section in question only pertains to the first.) 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:45 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
You simply failed to notice my reference to paragraphs 146 to 159.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:46 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
It's quite obvious to me by now that anything which doesn't agree with Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna theory will be interpreted as a "wild leap" by you. Interesting sidebar is that the teachings of Ajahn Chah don't accord with Ven. Brahmavamso's jhāna theory.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:32 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
This qualm has already been addressed.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:55 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
The inclusion of this statement is merely meant to indicate that the preceding enumeration isn't meant to be a closed system. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:44 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
Then my question is: What is your concern with Ven. Gunaratana's teachings on jhāna? 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:55 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
Paragraph 1 of the Dhammasaṅgaṇī Cittuppādakaṇḍa is a list of numerous phenomena that arise concomitantly on a specific occasion, which are then defined in paragraphs 2 to 57. Paragraph 1 includes the arising of both samatha and vipassanā, specifically, at that time. These are then defined in paragraphs 54 and 55:
What at that time is samatha? That which at that time is stability of mind, steadfastness of mind, thorough steadfastness of mind, unshakableness, non-distraction, imperturbability, calmness of mind, faculty of concentration, strength of concentration, right concentration. This at that time is samatha.

What at that time is vipassanā? That which at that time is discernment (paññā), thorough understanding, investigation, comprehensive investigation, investigation of phenomena, consideration, discrimination, direct discrimination, erudite intelligence, proficiency, refined intelligence, discriminative examination.... This at that time is vipassanā.

Are you seriously suggesting that this passage be interpreted to preclude the concomitant occurrence of samatha and vipassanā?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:02 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
I gave the source when I posted the excerpt from the Dhammasaṅgaṇī Cittuppādakaṇḍa: Khine, U Kyaw. The Dhammasaṅgaṇī. Delhi: Sri Satguru Publications. 1999.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:12 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
My quote doesn't posit anything of the sort. The Dhammasaṅgaṇī Cittuppādakaṇḍa offers lists of phenomena present (meaning mental factors concomitantly engaged) in a skillful, unskillful, etc, cognition. Thus, it's concern is phenomenological. The section on Rūpāvacarakusala lists the mental factors engaged in an optimally skillful rūpāvacarajjhānacitta. This list includes sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsati, sampajañña, samatha, and vipassanā. Taking the canonical Pāḷi treatises into consideration, as well as the numerous major non-Pāḷi Abhidharma treatises, there is nothing whatsoever unusual about the inclusion of vipassanā here. In all of our discussions you have yet to offer any canonical support for the premise that vipassanā cannot be engaged while abiding in jhāna. 

Again: This thread is about Bhante G's teachings, and your introduction of Piya Tan's critique of Bhante G. I've pointed out a couple of serious flaws in Piya Tan's reading of the suttas, and provided canonical support for Bhante G's teaching on samatha and vipassanā conjoined in jhāna. You've offered no canonical support for Piya Tan's critique of Bhante G's teachings. And you've offered no canonical support for the notion that vipassanā cannot be conjoined with samatha in jhāna. 

Moreover, you seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge the consequence of Ven. Brahmavamso and Ven. Sujato's interpretation of sammāsamādhi: To accept Ven. Brahmavamso and Ven. Sujato's interpretation, one has to accept that every single treatise and every single commentator in the history of Buddhist exegesis was wrong regarding sammāsamādhi. Do you accept Ven. Brahmavamso and Ven. Sujato's interpretation of sammāsamādhi or not? If so, do you accept this consequence or not?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:52 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
More nonsense. This thread is about Bhante G's teachings, and your introduction of Piya Tan's critique of Bhante G. I've pointed out a couple of serious flaws in Piya Tan's reading of the suttas, and provided canonical support for Bhante G's teaching on samatha and vipassanā conjoined in jhāna. 

There is so little hermeneutic and exegetical support for Ven. Brahmavamso and Ven. Sujato's interpretation of sammāsamādhi, that I find their teachings on the subject completely uncompelling and quite misguided. If you find their interpretation and teachings helpful, that's fine by me.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:12 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
Every significant Abhidhamma/Abhidharma treatise that I've consulted, except the Visuddhimagga, mentions vipassanā/vipaśyanā as a mental factor employed in the four jhānas/dhyānas. Most explicitly state that the four jhānas/dhyānas are the optimal samādhis for the development of supramundane vipassanā/vipaśyanā. All of these treatises are basing this understanding on the same Nikāya/Āgama source materials. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:54 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
MN 117:
And what is the right resolve that has effluents, sides with merit, &amp; results in acquisitions? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness. This is the right resolve that has effluents, sides with merit, &amp; results in acquisitions.

This passage includes what is classified as rūpāvacarajjhāna in the Abhidhammapiṭaka. A number of academics and translators have noted that MN 117 has ābhidhammika type additions not found in the Āgama version of this discourse.

However, the Peṭakopadesa is actually closer to the treatment of the four jhānas found throughout the suttas than what is found in MN 117 or the Pāḷi Abhidhammapiṭaka. 

Moreover, the Peṭakopadesa word commentary on the jhāna factors of all four jhānas is in close agreement with not only the Pāḷi suttas, but also the main non-Pāḷi Abhidharma texts, i.e. the Sarvāstivāda *Mahāvibhāṣā (Apidamo dapiposha lun), the Abhidharmakośabhāṣya, the *Mahāprajñāpāramitopadeśa (Dazhi du lun), the *Prakaraṇāryavācaśāstra (Xianyang shengjiao lun), and the Yogācārabhūmiśāstra. Thus, parts of the Peṭakopadesa may preserve very early, possibly even pre-sectarian commentarial material.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:12 pm
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
Reading the entire sutta in context we find that it explicitly states that one must emerge from the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception in order to employ insight regarding that attainment:
Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered &amp; remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased &amp; changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.'

This qualification is neither stated nor implied with regard to the seven previous perception attainments (i.e. the four jhānas and the first three formless attainments). Ven. Ṭhānissaro comments on this section of the sutta as follows:
Notice that, with each of the previous levels of attainment, Sariputta was able to ferret out the various mental qualities arising there while he was still in the attainment. With this attainment and the following one, however, he was not able to analyze the mental qualities present and absent there until after he had left the attainment. The difference here is related to the point made in AN IX.36 that all the attainments up through the dimension of nothingness are "perception-attainments." And that, "As far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception &amp; the attainment of the cessation of feeling &amp; perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining &amp; emerging, who have attained &amp; emerged in dependence on them."

This understanding also accords with the pan-Buddhist abhidharma interpretation that vipassanā can and should function in all seven perception attainments, but cannot function in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception or the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:51 am
Title: Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G
Content:
The earliest detailed word commentary on the standard jhāna formula is found in Peṭakopadesa 7.72. It clearly defines vitakka and vicāra:
Here, for fulfilling non-passion he thinks the thought of renunciation. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression he thinks the thought of non-aversion. Here, for fulfilling non-delusion he thinks the thought of harmlessness.

Here, for fulfilling non-passion he is secluded from sensual pleasures. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression and fulfilling non-delusion he is secluded from unskillful phenomena. And so he enters and remains in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

Directed thought: There are three kinds of directed thought, namely the thought of renunciation, the thought of non-aversion, and the thought of harmlessness.

Here, directed thought is the first instance while evaluation is the evaluation of what is thereby received. Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man, but when he has received [the apperception] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,” then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes, “How then, is he ethical or unethical, rich or poor?” This is examination. With directed thought he fixes. With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].

And just as a winged bird first accumulates [speed] and then accumulates no more [speed when gliding], so too, directed thought is like the accumulation, and evaluation is like the outstretched wings which keeps preserving the directed thought and evaluation....

Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.

This word commentary accords with MN 78 Samaṇamuṇḍika Sutta, which tells us that skillful resolves (kusalā saṅkappā) consisting of the resolve of renunciation (nekkhamma- saṅkappa), the resolve of non-aversion (abyāpādasaṅkappa), and the resolve of harmlessness (avihiṃsāsaṅkappa) don’t cease until the second jhāna. This provides some context as to the meaning and significance of directed thought and evaluation in the standard jhāna formula:
And what are skillful resolves? Being resolved on renunciation, on non-aversion, on harmlessness. These are called skillful resolves. What is the cause of skillful resolves? Their cause, too, has been stated, and they are said to be apperception-caused. Which apperception? — for apperception has many modes and permutations. Any renunciation-apperception, non-aversion-apperception or harmlessness-apperception: That is the cause of skillful resolves.

Now where do skillful resolves cease without trace? Their stopping, too, has been stated: There is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, enters and remains in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of concentration. This is where skillful resolves cease without trace.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:47 am
Title: Re: The deathless -- "our" original nature/home?
Content:
There are numerous instances where the early Thai forest masters sound much like Chan patriarchs. For example, Ajahn Mun:
The mind is something more radiant than anything else can be, but because counterfeits — passing defilements — come and obscure it, it loses its radiance, like the sun when obscured by clouds. Don't go thinking that the sun goes after the clouds. Instead, the clouds come drifting along and obscure the sun.

So meditators, when they know in this manner, should do away with these counterfeits by analyzing them shrewdly, as explained in the strategies of clear insight. When they develop the mind to the stage of the primal mind, this will mean that all counterfeits are destroyed, or rather, counterfeit things won't be able to reach into the primal mind, because the bridge making the connection will have been destroyed. Even though the mind may then still have to come into contact with the preoccupations of the world, its contact will be like that of a bead of water rolling over a lotus leaf.

Ajahn Dune:
Mind is “the knowing”. You have to establish mindfulness there.

Mind and “the knowing” are the same. There is no difference. All the differences perceived are due to wrong thinking, not understanding, not knowing – ignorance. Not understanding/misunderstanding (ignorance) leads us to create unending kamma.

When the mind sees the (pure) mind, everything will be destroyed. Defilements (kilesa) and cravings (tanha) will be destroyed, ended.

[Student:] When all defilements and cravings are destroyed, is that the stage of arahants? Is the mind still there?

[Ajahn:] The mind is still there. But there is no more impurity, no more defilements or mental fabrications.

True dhamma (saddhamma) is this (pure) mind. True dhamma has never been created. It will not be destroyed. True dhamma has always been there even when we are ignorant. True dhamma is also not created when ignorance is destroyed, when we are enlightened.

(Pure) mind is true dhamma that has always been, and will simply be like this. It does not change. When there is wisdom (panna), ignorance (avijja) will be destroyed. When the mind sees mind, all kilesa ceases.

Ajahn Chah:
When the mind transcends conditions, it knows the unconditioned. The mind becomes the unconditioned, the state which no longer contains conditioning factors. The mind is no longer conditioned by the concerns of the world, conditions no longer contaminate the mind. Pleasure and pain no longer affect it. Nothing can affect the mind or change it, the mind is assured, it has escaped all constructions. Seeing the true nature of conditions and the determined, the mind becomes free.

This freed mind is called the unconditioned, that which is beyond the power of constructing influences. If the mind doesn't really know conditions and determinations, it is moved by them. Encountering good, bad, pleasure, or pain, it proliferates about them.

And also:
Now, examining the true nature of the mind, you can observe that in its natural state, it has no preoccupations or issues prevailing upon it. It's like a piece of cloth or a flag that has been tied to the end of a pole. As long as it's on its own and undisturbed, nothing will happen to it....

The purpose of the practice, then, is to seek inwardly, searching and investigating until you reach the original mind. The original mind is also known as the pure mind. The pure mind is the mind without attachment. It doesn't get affected by mind-objects. In other words, it doesn't chase after the different kinds of pleasant and unpleasant mind-objects. Rather, the mind is in a state of continuous knowing and wakefulness - thoroughly mindful of all it is experiencing. When the mind is like this, no pleasant or unpleasant mind-objects it experiences will be able to disturb it. The mind doesn't 'become' anything. In other words, nothing can shake it. Why? Because there is awareness. The mind knows itself as pure. It has evolved its own, true independence; it has reached its original state. How is it able to bring this original state into existence? Through the faculty of mindfulness wisely reflecting and seeing that all things are merely conditions arising out of the influence of elements, without any individual being controlling them.

And of course, there is the transcription of a tape recording by Ajahn Dune, which apparently is of him reading a translation of a teaching by Huangbo Xiyun:
All Buddhas and all beings in the world are nothing but the single citta. Outside this single citta nothing at all exists. The single citta, free from the conventional self, is something that was not made and is something, which cannot be destroyed. It is not a thing with color, such as green or yellow and has neither form nor appearance. It is not included in existing things or non-existing things. One cannot have the view that it is something new or old, longer short, large or small because it is beyond all limitations, beyond all measuring, beyond labels, beyond leaving a trace and beyond all comparisons.

This single citta is before our very eyes but when we use reason to conceive of it as a "thing" or "self", try it! We will immediately be mistaken. It is like emptiness that is without limitation and cannot be conceived or measured.

The single citta, this alone is Buddha. There is no difference between Buddha and all worldly beings except that worldly beings cling to the various worldly forms causing them to search for "Buddha Nature" (Buddha Bhava) externally. That very search makes them miss "Buddha Nature". This is like using Buddha to search for Buddha or the citta to search for the citta. Even though they may try as hard as they can for a full eon, they will never achieve "Buddha Bhava".

They do not know that if they stop thinking and conceiving and cease their confusion due to this searching "Buddha" will appear before their eyes because the citta, itself, is Buddha.

Compare with the beginning of Huangbo's Chung-ling Record:
All Buddhas and all sentient beings are no different from the One Mind. In this One Mind there is neither arising nor ceasing, no name or form, no long or short, no large or small, and neither existence nor non-existence. It transcends all limitations of name, word and relativity, and it is as boundless as the great void. Giving rise to thought is erroneous, and any speculation about it with our ordinary faculties is inapplicable, irrelevant and inaccurate. Only Mind is Buddha, and Buddhas and sentient beings are not different. All sentient beings grasp form and search outside themselves. Using Buddha to seek Buddha, they thus use mind to seek Mind. Practicing in this manner even until the end of the kalpa, they cannot attain the fruit. However, when thinking and discrimination suddenly halt, the Buddhas appear.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:35 am
Title: Re: Global Warming has decreased in NZ
Content:
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. He has kept his promises and earned his sleep." -- from his son Justin's eulogy at Trudeau's funeral

Or maybe he's been reborn in the same deva realm as John....


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:52 am
Title: Re: Global Warming has decreased in NZ
Content:
"Liberals" are considered centrists here.  Thanks to Tommy Douglas and the CCF/NDP!


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:31 am
Title: Re: Global Warming has decreased in NZ
Content:
On a more serious note: Living in Canada where we used to get winter, global warming is now obvious.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:23 pm
Title: Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
Hi Hoo,

The thread was created in the interest of sharing some resources on the history of the Theravāda interaction with Mahāyāna ideas, as well as the Pāḷi Yogāvacara teachings (which aren't directly related to the bodhisattvayāna or Mahāyāna). If you don't consider history to be important, that's fine. But having some appreciation of the rich history of the greater Pāḷi tradition can certainly be helpful in this pluralistic day and age. Once again, there is no need to suspect anyone of proselytizing, and the "us vs. them" rhetoric isn't helpful or necessary at all.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:23 pm
Title: Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?
Content:
Hi Starter,

These phenomena are quite clearly differentiated and defined in the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ānāpānassatikathā:
How is it that he trains thus: 'Experiencing pīti, I will breathe in;' he trains thus: 'Experiencing pīti, I will breathe out'?

What is pīti?...

Any joy (pīti), gladness (pāmojja), delight (āmodanā), joyfulness (pamodanā), shining mirth (bhāsa pabhāsa), felicity (vitti), elation (odagya), satisfaction (attamantā), and mental uplift (cittassa), is pīti....

How is it that he trains thus: 'Experiencing sukha, I will breathe in;' he trains thus: 'Experiencing sukha, I will breathe out'?

Pleasure (sukha): there are two kinds of pleasure, bodily pleasure and mental pleasure.

What is bodily pleasure?

Any bodily well-being, bodily pleasure, well-­being and pleasure felt as born of body contact, welcome satisfactory feeling born of body contact, is bodily pleasure.

What is mental pleasure?

Any mental well-being, mental pleasure, well-­being and pleasure felt as born of mental contact, welcome pleasant feeling born of mental contact, is mental pleasure.

And as jhāna factors, Peṭakopadesa 7.72:
The twofold bodily and mental pain does not arise in one steadied in directed thought and evaluation, and the twofold bodily and mental pleasure does arise. The mental pleasure thus produced from directed thought is pīti, while the bodily pleasure is bodily feeling.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:27 am
Title: Re: The specific differences between Mahayana and Theravada?
Content:
The "arguments" you mention were certainly not used by Nāgārjuna or any other Indian Mahāyāna author that I've ever read. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:42 am
Title: Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
Yeah, well, I'm not an advocate of all things Mahāyāna either. And I've witnessed the whole hīnayāna polemic from the inside there too, and the defensive posturing when it was brought to people's attention that I consider the hīnayāna label to be derogatory and unacceptable.


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:57 am
Title: Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
If we're going to be precise, the Buddha didn't teach the Theravāda either. There have been a number of moves made by the Theravāda regarding such things as momentary supramundane path structure, separation of samatha &amp; vipassanā into completely separate vehicles of development, theory of radical momentariness, buddha qualities, etc., etc., which have no basis in the discourses.


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:40 am
Title: Re: The specific differences between Mahayana and Theravada?
Content:
I've heard that Lozang Jamspal (Columbia University) has made or is in the process of making a new translation. Much needed and long, long overdue.


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:20 am
Title: Re: The specific differences between Mahayana and Theravada?
Content:
Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen Rinpoche's translation of The Jewel Ornament of Liberation is a more contemporary, accessible read.

An even better source of Indian Mahāyāna thought would be The Way of the Bodhisattva by Śāntideva.

Or Four Illusions: Candrakīrti's Advice for Travelers on the Bodhisattva Path by Candrakīrti.


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:05 am
Title: Re: The specific differences between Mahayana and Theravada?
Content:
And this is why it is important to set the Mahāyāna in an accurate historical context. In all likelihood the monks who accepted some type of bodhisattvayāna (prior to the 5th or 6th centuries CE at least) would have been living alongside or in some sort of proximate relationship to their mainstream Nikāya brethren. They would have known the Āgama/Nikāya discourses, and the development of the bodhisattvayāna would have been embedded in this mainstream orthopraxy. Even Śāntideva's two texts on the bodhisattvamārga (~7th-8th century CE) are quite unremarkable and mainstream in terms of ethical conduct, renunciation, meditations on impurity, cemetery contemplations, impermanence, conditioned arising, etc.


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:41 am
Title: Re: The specific differences between Mahayana and Theravada?
Content:
Unfortunately, Virgo is not offering an accurate representation of anything but his own misconceptions of Mahāyāna and Buddhist history.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:47 pm
Title: Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
Could be a combination of both. Motivation for monastics as well as householders thinking of going forth to return to the ascetic practices, and also inspirational reminders for laypersons to support ascetic monastics in addition to the established monastic institutions. A few examples....

Samādhirāja Sūtra:
There has been no buddha in the past, nor will there be in the future, who abides in the household and who so established has achieved this supreme, highest enlightenment.

Viśuddhaśraddhādārikāparipṛcchā Sūtra:
[T]here are eight things by which a bodhisattva accomplishes the ascetic disciplines [dhutaguṇa] and always takes pleasure dwelling in the wilderness. What are the eight? (1) Having few desires; (2) Knowing satisfaction; (3) Fulfillment of the True Dharma; (4) Supporting oneself with what is meritorious; (5) Always upholding the four traditions of the spiritually ennobled [āryavaṃsa]; (6) Seeing the misery of saṃsāra, his mind is always disgusted and aloof; (7) He constantly observes [things as] impermanent, suffering, empty, and without self; (8) Having a deep faith that is unshakable, he does not fall into heterodox teachings. At that time the Blessed One again spoke these verses:

Having few desires and knowing satisfaction, [the bodhisattva] does not abandon restraint. The manifold benefits of taking pleasure in the Dharma are what he nurtures as his riches. He finds enjoyment in always cultivating the traditions of the spiritually ennobled. When he sees the misery of saṃsāra, he generates thoughts of dread. For this reason he always takes pleasure in practicing the ascetic disciplines, alone, without companions, like the single horn of a rhinoceros. [Seeing all] compounded things as suffering and without self, he possesses gnosis and deep faith, abiding in true exertion.

Seeing the Dharma for himself, he does not fall into heterodoxy. He always dwells in remote areas as praised by the Buddha. Purified, secluded, and without distress, [the bodhisattva] is without contention, cognizant of his own manifold shortcomings. Aloof from associations and divorced from flattery, [the bodhisattva] takes pleasure in dwelling in the wilderness.

Ratnarāśi Sūtra:
The wilderness-dwelling monk, Kāśyapa, should make his bed and seat in a wilderness, an abode in the forest, and a border area. He should dwell in wilderness border regions such as those without thieves, herdsmen or shepherds, without snakes, without wild beasts and flocks of birds, with few flies and stinging insects, with little noise, with few sounds of commotion.

If that [monk] is a dweller in that wilderness abode, he should bring about eight deliberations. What are the eight?

(1)He should not be concerned about his body.
(2)He should not be concerned about his life.
(3)He should not be concerned about wealth or honors.
(4)He should not be concerned about all garrulous associations with others.
(5)He should undertake to die in a wilderness like an animal.
(6)He should dwell in the wilderness making use of the advantages offered by the wilderness.
(7)He should live with his livelihood in accord with the Teaching; he should not live wrongly.
(8)He should live in accord with a livelihood free from worldly material possessions and defilements.

He should dwell in a wilderness abode bringing about these eight deliberations.

Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra:
There has never been a bodhisattva who dwells in the household and who has awakened to unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. They all, moreover, having gone forth from the household, fixed their thoughts on the wilderness with a predilection toward the wilderness. Having gone to the wilderness, they awakened to unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. And [it is there that] they acquired the prerequisites [Skt. saṃbhāra] [for enlightenment; i.e., merit and gnosis].

And also from the same sutra:
I should examine the matter as follows: “I came to the wilderness on account of being afraid of such frightening and terrifying things [as inauspicious rebirths, and so forth, as mentioned in a previous passage]. I cannot be freed from such frightening and terrifying things as these by living in the household, by living in company [with others], or by living without exerting myself, without applying myself diligently to yoga, or by thinking distractedly. All bodhisattvas mahāsattvas who appeared in the past were delivered from every fear by dwelling in the wilderness; in this way they obtained the fearlessness that is unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. All bodhisattvas mahāsattvas who will appear in the future will be delivered from every fear by dwelling in the wilderness; in this way they will obtain the fearlessness that is unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. All bodhisattvas mahāsattvas who appear in the present and who have obtained unexcelled, perfect enlightenment are delivered from every fear by dwelling in the wilderness; in this way they obtained the fearlessness that is unexcelled, perfect enlightenment. Therefore, I too, frightened and terrified here, and desiring to transcend every fear and attain the fearless state, should dwell in the wilderness.”

Rāṣṭrapālaparipṛcchā Sūtra:
May you dwell in crags, in the wilderness, and in caves, and abiding there, not exalt yourselves or vilify others. May you exhort yourselves continually, ever mindful that you turned away from millions of former buddhas. Abandon your craving for body and life; indifferent, apply yourself to the Dharma, generating ardent respect.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:17 pm
Title: Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
Of course. The bodhisattva path as a developed vehicle of practice postdates the suttas. No doubt it was developed to meet the needs of different groups of people at different times. And in some of the earliest textual remnants presenting the bodhisattvayāna as a unique vehicle we can clearly see a recurring desire to return to the ascetic path initiated by the śramaṇa Gautama Buddha.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:30 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
I don't see it as having anything to do with diplomacy. Denigrating other expressions of Buddhist faith as being no more soteriologically meaningful than popular fiction is arrogant and self-serving. I don't detect any skillfulness in belittling others as being misguided unfortunates unwilling or unable to rise to your superior level. It's just another version of the hīnayāna polemic: Everyone who doesn't see it your way is by default employing a poor, deficient vehicle.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:01 pm
Title: Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
So are you now suggesting that the meditative practice of the recollection of devas is a "regrettable lapse into the pre Buddhist cosmology of the Indian Subcontinent"?


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:54 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Just wondering why you would want to categorically dismiss everything not found in a Pāḷi text as fictions with no more soteriological utility than The Lord Of The Rings?


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:47 pm
Title: Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
The Metteyya stuff was "smuggled back into Buddhism via the Mahayana"?


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:34 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
And how do you know that its merely a literary device?


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:29 pm
Title: Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
Are you suggesting that prior to his awakening the Buddha wasn't a bodhisattva and the suttas where he refers to himself prior to his awakening as a bodhisattva are fictions?


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:09 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
So for you the common Nāthadeva/Metteyya stuff is legit but any other devas with bodhisattva or buddha qualities abiding in other world systems is absolutely impossible and therefore illegitimate?


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:09 am
Title: Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?
Content:
Hi Starter,

Here are a couple of resources related to pīti &amp; sukha:
Pīti

Pītisukha

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:02 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:27 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
This is a rather complex discussion in a context like this. This complexity doesn't easily lend itself to simplistic answers. Maybe you would be better served at this point to just be diligent in your own study and practice?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:01 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Yeah, well, I'd suggest that this sentiment is based upon some quite naïve assumptions. Foremost amongst them the idea of "lineage."

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:19 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Thanks for these constructive words Kevin. I generally agree with part of what Morlock already alluded to. I gave up thinking in terms of vādas and yānas a long time ago. I consider everything which postdates the Nikāyas and Āgamas to be a long series of endnotes offering various interpretations of the commonly shared tradition. They are historical accretions which can be informative, but often wind their way into thickets of views.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:04 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
I don't see that as a cop-out. It may be quite prudent. This type of discussion can be interpreted as a no-win situation. Or it can be interpreted as a win-win situation. In this pluralistic day and age I opt for the latter interpretation. Communication can be difficult at times, but this doesn't mean that it isn't worthwhile.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:25 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
In your mind you've already excommunicated everyone who doesn't agree with you from the Theravāda community. Guess in your mind there are a lot of "those people." Glad I don't live in your mind.


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:19 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
On an internet forum this kind of statement is just a lame cop-out. Intellectual laziness masquerading as witty iconoclasm.


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:00 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
I have never once suggested otherwise. In fact, I have more than once explicitly said on this board that the Theravāda is a complete path in itself.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:45 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Well, it would probably be nice to engage in an open and constructive discussion of these kinds of ideas without it being either tacitly implied or overtly stated that participants presenting ideas that some other participants might disagree with are "proselytizing." But outside of very precisely demarcated academic settings these types of baseless assumptions are fairly commonplace. Religious sectarian group identity is right up there with ego-centrism, ethnocentrism, nationalism, and so on, as a very powerful and habitual human tendency.


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:15 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Wrong again. I'm not proselytizing anything. I'm discussing the Mahāyāna teachings. But once again, you're missing the point. There is nothing preventing a Theravāda layperson or monastic from accepting and practicing the Mahāyāna teachings on the bodhisattva path. Just as there is nothing preventing a Mūlasarvāstivāda layperson or monastic or a Dharmaguptaka layperson or monastic from accepting and practicing the Mahāyāna teachings on the bodhisattva path. The Mahāyāna isn't a vāda, it's a yāna, a vehicle open to all who aspire to practice the bodhisattva path.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:51 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
It seems pretty evident that you are not at all interested in a discussion of Mahāyāna teachings. 

Be that as it may, there is nothing preventing a Theravāda layperson or monastic from accepting and practicing the Mahāyāna teachings on the bodhisattva path. Just as there is nothing preventing a Mūlasarvāstivāda layperson or monastic or a Dharmaguptaka layperson or monastic from accepting and practicing the Mahāyāna teachings on the bodhisattva path. The Mahāyāna isn't a vāda, it's a yāna, a vehicle open to all who aspire to practice the bodhisattva path.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:42 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
For example, after Amitābha enters parinirvāṇa, Avalokiteśvara bodhisattva will be reborn as the buddha of Sukhāvatī.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:15 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Sorry bud, but you're in no position to decide who is a Thera and who isn't.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:34 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Well, they are certainly misconceptions whether you accept that they are or not.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:14 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
That's fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Merely attempting to address a few very common misconceptions about Mahāyāna practice. (And these misconceptions are not limited to just non-mahāyānikas.)


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:09 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
The goal of the śrāvakayāna is to attain arahanthood. The goal of the bodhisattvayāna is to attain buddhahood.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:45 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
I suppose that I should add that I'm not denying that mahāyānikas believe in long living buddhas and very advanced bodhisattvas who abide in pure realms beyond this world system. Nor an I denying that mahāyānikas believe in the causal efficacy of communicating with these buddhas and bodhisattvas. 

All Buddhist schools -- including the classical Theravāda -- accept that Nātha (a.k.a. Nāthadeva) bodhisattva is currently residing as a deva in Tuṣita heaven, and that he will be reborn as Ajita and become the next buddha of this world system named Maitreya (Metteyya). It is also accepted that a practitioner who has developed the divine eye (divyacakṣus, dibbacakkhu) and other higher gnoses can perceive and communicate with deities. The Mahāyāna teachings have taken this one step further and accept that a practitioner who has developed the divine eye, etc., can also perceive and communicate with with buddhas and advanced bodhisattvas who reside in pure realms beyond this world system. Moreover, by paying homage to them and engaging in pūja and sādhanā one can generate merit, which is conducive to helping the practitioner attain buddhahood him or herself. And beyond this, when the practitioner has developed their higher faculties, they can receive teaching instructions directly from these buddhas and bodhisattvas. The Mahāyāna teachings on pūja and sādhanā are an extension of recollection of the buddha (buddhānusmṛti), which dates to the earliest strata of the canonical discourses (and buddhānusmṛti as devatāyoga sādhanā can be expanded to include dharmānusmṛti, saṅghānusmṛti, śīlānusmṛti, tyāgānusmṛti, and devatānusmṛti into a unified practice).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:37 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Upāya: expedient means specific to each mind-stream. Until one is either an arahant or a very advanced bodhisattva one is necessarily going to rely on expedient means. The path is all about leaning to employ expedient means.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:13 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
The topic of this thread pertains to Mahāyāna sūtras. Thus the context of this discussion is the sūtrayāna. The fruitional vehicle (phalayāna, vajrayāna) isn't directly relevant to the topic at hand.

What I said about pūjas was in terms of the frequency and quality of devotion, not the specific object of devotion per se (which need not be the same). I am certainly not saying that the śrāvakayāna and the bodhisattvayāna are the same. And I've already mentioned that there is no homogeneous Mahāyāna.

Moreover, a Mahāyāna practitioner (including a vajrayāna tantrika) who has realized the view will know that pūjas are expedient means and will eventually realize that there is no such thing as "objective sacramental change."

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:53 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
As for practice, there are right now traditional Theravāda practitioners who practice devotion towards one's teacher and pūja worship and mindfulness and the pāramīs just as much and just as intently as any Mahāyāna practitioner would. And there are right now traditional Mahāyāna practitioners who practice renunciation and mindfulness and samādhi just as much and just as intently as any Theravāda practitioner would.

As for view, saṃsāra is to be let go of, nirvāṇa is to be realized. Period. Everything else is -- at best -- a means towards this end; otherwise it's just a conceptual distraction.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:30 pm
Title: Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
Here is a list of Pāḷi Yogāvacara texts from the Reference Table of Pāli Literature compiled by Ven. Nyanatusita:
Vidarśanā pota, Vidarśanā bhāvanā pota, Dhyāna pota, Samasatalis karmasthānadhyānabhāvanā, Bambaragalē Pota, Vipassanā Niddesa (Pāḷi–Sinh. C. Compiled by Rambukavällē Ratanajoti on advice of Siamese theras, 18th c. Different versions? Beg: Okāsa vandāmi bhante… Eng. trans.: Manual of a Mystic. The material of this and the below entries is similar.) N 6601(6; 7; 23; 43 i &amp; ii, 50; 76), LCM 699–702, SH 236.

Parikammabhāvana (C? Pāḷi. Beg: Upāda uppajjantu…) N 6601(23iii).

Kasinabhāvanāpota, Cattālisakammaṭṭhāna (Pāḷi–Sinh. Beg: Ahaṃ yācāmi uggahanimmitaṃ…) N 6601(6 &amp; 64).

Kasinabhāvanāpota, Cattālisakammaṭṭhāna (Pāḷi–Sinh. Beg. Okāsa accayo no bhante accagamā…) N 6601(51).

Ratanaamatākaravaṇṇanā, Amatākaravaṇṇanā, Yogijanakantavimuttimagga (Pāli verse. 18th c.? Beg: Niccaṃ kilesamalavajjitadehadhāriṃ. The title Vimuttimaggauddāna is arbitrary according to Somadasa in N.) N 6601(85i), SH 236, LCM 687, L.

Samathavipassanabhāvanavākkapprakaraṇaṃ, Dvidhāvuttakammaṭṭhāna (Pāḷi prose. Beg. Vanditvā sirasā buddhaṃ … Okāsa okāsa bho sabbaññu Gotama sitthakadīpa… The 13 ch. titles are same as in Amatākaravaṇṇanā with which it is found in the same MS bundle. Maybedvi dhā refers to the verse text followed by the prose text. Cf prec. and next entries. N 6601(85ii).

Duvidhakammaṭṭhāna, (C? In same entry as Kammaṭṭhānasaṅgaha in L. Beg: Vanditvā… Okāsa sabbaññu Gotama sitthakadīpa… 4 chapters.) N 6601(23ii), SW, L.

Kammaṭṭhānasaṅgaha (C, Sāriputta, 12th c. Maybe identical with the preceding entry.) SW, Ps, HP 144.

Kammaṭṭhānadīpanī (Sāriputta. Maybe identical with the preceding entry. ) Ps, SW.

Kammaṭṭhānavibhāga (C?) L.

Kammaṭṭhānagahananiddesasannaya, L.

Kammaṭṭhāna, Kammaṭṭhānabhāvanā, Karmaṣthāna, Kamaṭahan, Kamaṭahansannaya (C. Different works?) LCM 1067, N 6600 (145), L.

Vimuttisaṅgaha (Pāḷi.) (C?) L.

Vimuttisaṅgahasannaya (C) L. 

Vimuktisaṃgrahaya ((Pāḷi verse + sanna + Sinh. prose.C, Laṅkāsenavirat pirivena adhipatti, late 14th c. Often together with the Skhandhādingē vibhāgaya and Navaarahādībuddhaguṇa vibhāgaya. Beg: Natvā buddhañca…) N 6601(55), CM xxxii, SL 53, L.

Vimuktimargaya (C?) L.

Mūlakammaṭṭhāna, Mahāmūlakammaṭṭhāna (Ic.) PCS 2.165, PSA 108, VP 4/120.

Yokappako Ācāriya (La?) PSA 121.


Abbreviations:

B: Burma/Myanmar
CM: Chiang Mai/Lān2 Nā
I: India
Ic: Indochina. (Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Siam, Vietnam, i.e., the wider sense given in the Oxford Dictionary.)
Kh: Khmer/Cambodia
La: Laos
S: Siam/Thailand
SI: South-India, Tamil Nadu
C: Ceylon/Sri Lanka



CM: Catalogue of Ceylonese Manuscripts; C.E. Godakumbara, the Royal Library, Copenhagen, 1980. 
HP: Handbook of Pāli Literature. Somapala Jayawardhana; Colombo, 1994. 
L: Lankāvē Puskoḷa Pot Nāmāvaliya I and II. K.D. Somadasa; Colombo, 1959 and 1964.
LCM: Catalogue of Palm Leaf Manuscripts in the Library of the Colombo Museum; W.A. de Silva; Colombo 1938. 
N: Catalogue of the Hugh Nevill Collection of Sinhalese Manuscripts in the British Library, 7 vols.; K.D. Somadasa, London, 1987 - 95.
PCS: Pāli Literature Transmitted in Central Siam. Peter Skilling &amp; Santi Pakdeekham; Bangkok 2002. (§) 
Ps: Pitakat samuin (Burmese History of the Tipiṭaka); Mahasirijeyasū, 19th c. 
PSA: Pāli Literature of South-east Asia; Ven. Dr. Hammalawa Saddhātissa, Singapore, 1992, repr. 2004.
SH: Singhalesische Handschriften Teil I; Heinz Bechert and Maria Bidoli, Wiesbaden, 1969. Singhalesische Handschriften Teil II; Heinz Bechert, Stuttgart, 1997.
SL: Sinhalese Literature; C.E. Godakumbara, Colombo, 1955. 
SW: “Sāriputta and his works”; Primoz Pecenko, JPTS XXIII (1997), pp. 159–179.
VP:The Pāli Manuscript Collection kept in the Vat Phra Jetuphon Vimol Mangklaram (Vat Po), Jacqueline Filliozat, Bangkok, 2002–2003. In ED 108. (MS No.)

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:36 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
For anyone interested, here are some informative resources: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:32 pm
Title: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda
Content:
Hi all,

Here are some resources for anyone interested in the historical aspects of the bodhisattva path in Sri Lanka and other Theravāda locations:
Chandawimala Thero, Rangama. Bodhicitta in Theravāda Buddhism with Special Reference to the Abhayagiri Fraternity in Ancient Sri Lanka. Presentation for Third Korean Conference of Buddhist Studies, 2006.

Chandawimala Thero, Rangama. The Impact of the Abhayagiri Practices on the Development of Theravāda Buddhism in Sri Lanka. Doctoral Dissertation, 2007.

Chandawimala Thero, Rangama. Esoteric Buddhist Practice in Ancient Sri Lanka.

Holt, John Clifford. Buddha In The Crown: Avalokiteśvara in the Buddhist Traditions of Sri Lanka. Oxford University Press, 1991.

Sundberg, Jeffrey R. The Wilderness Monks of the Abhayagirivihāra and the Origins of Sino-Javanese Esoteric Buddhism. Bijdragen tot de Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde, 2004.

And a few papers discussing the Pāḷi Yogāvacara texts:
Crosby, Kate. History Versus Modern Myth: The Abhayagirivihāra, the Vimuttimagga and Yogāvacara Meditation. Journal of Indian Philosophy 27 (6), 1999.

Crosby, Kate. Studies in the Medieval Pāli Literature of Sri Lanka with Special Reference to the Esoteric Yogāvacara Tradition. Doctoral Dissertation, 2000.

Crosby, Kate. Tantric Theravāda: A Bibliographic Essay on the Writings of François Bizot and others on the Yogāvacara Tradition. Contemporary Buddhism, Vol. 1, No. 2, 2000.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:15 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
There is a considerable corpus of these Pāḷi Yogāvacara texts which haven't yet been translated into Western languages. There is also considerable historical evidence of Thera's engaging in the bodhisattva path, and even Indian Buddhist tantra (for example, tantric mantras have been discovered at Abhayagiri Vihāra and Vijayārāma Vihāra in Sri Lanka.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:50 pm
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Indeed. No harm at all.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:43 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Glad we can agree.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:35 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Okay then, Dhammapāla's commentary on the four shackles to giving, and the accomplishments resulting from practicing the pāramī-s, are coincidentally also found in the Bodhisattvabhūmi of the Yogācārabhūmiśāstra.

 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:09 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
It's a Mahābodhiyāna framework. 

There is really no homogeneous "Mahāyāna."


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:05 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
Not a very stimulating or informed reply.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:59 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
The Theravāda also teaches the bodhisattvayāna. Thus a Theravāda bodhisattva wouldn't necessarily need to learn Mahāyāna sūtras, but it certainly wouldn't hurt since the bodhisattvayāna isn't explicitly taught in the Pāḷi Canon. (Hence Ven. Dhammapāla's use of the Bodhisattvabhūmi from the Yogācārabhūmiśāstra when composing his commentary on the Pāramī-s for Theravāda practitioners who wish to engage in the perfections and practice the mahābodhiyāna of bodhisattas.)


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:22 am
Title: Re: Do you also read Mahayana Sutras?
Content:
The Mahāyāna isn't a sect. It's a vehicle for those to aspire to awaken to buddhahood. Thus there are Theravāda bodhisattvas and Mūlasarvāstivāda bodhisattvas and Dharmaguptaka bodhisattvas.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:59 am
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Ñanananda
Content:
Thanks Mike. 

Apparently the venerable bhikkhu is a time traveler.  According to the Wikipedia page:
Ven. Nanananda Thera delivered 33 sermons on the subject of Nibbana, during the period 1998.08.12 – 1991.01.31.
If someone has a Wikipedia account it would be a good idea to correct these dates.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:42 am
Title: Re: Source of a work
Content:
Hi Euclid,

It's the first part of Chapter 8 from the The Way of the Bodhisattva (Bodhicaryavatāra) by Śāntideva. The entire chapter has around 180 verses.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:00 am
Title: Re: Did the Buddha teach strict determinism?
Content:
There is a difference between complete, unconditional autonomous control on the one hand, and functional choice on the other. Just because there is no permanent, satisfactory autonomous Self wielding power and unconditional control over the aggregates doesn't mean that there is no functional choice. Volitional intention (cetanā), which is functional choice, only ever occurs in the present. It occurs in consort with desire (chanda), attention (manasikāra), and so on. If there is the presence of fundamental attention (yoniso manasikāra), then there is the opportunity for skillful choices to occur, motivated by desire for the development of right effort (sammāvāyāma) and right exertion (sammappadhānā). All of these path factors occur in consort with functional choice and desire. Cf. the following brief survey of discourses which give clear injunctions for generating desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, the arousal of persistence, the exertion to guard, the exertion to abandon, the exertion to develop, the exertion to maintain, etc. 
There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds &amp; exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, &amp; culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right exertions.

Just as the River Ganges flows to the east, slopes to the east, inclines to the east, in the same way when a monk develops &amp; pursues the four right exertions, he flows to Unbinding, slopes to Unbinding, inclines to Unbinding. [SN.49.1]

There are these four exertions. Which four? The exertion to guard, the exertion to abandon, the exertion to develop, &amp; the exertion to maintain.

And what is the exertion to guard? There is the case where a monk, on seeing a form with the eye, does not grasp at any theme or variations by which — if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye — evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. He practices with restraint. He guards the faculty of the eye. He achieves restraint with regard to the faculty of the eye. (Similarly with the ear, nose, tongue, body, &amp; intellect.) This is called the exertion to guard.

And what is the exertion to abandon? There is the case where a monk does not acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen [in him]. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence. He does not acquiesce to a thought of ill will... a thought of violence... any evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen [in him]. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, wipes them out of existence. This is called the exertion to abandon.

And what is the exertion to develop? There is the case where a monk develops the mindfulness factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops the investigation of qualities factor for Awakening... the persistence factor for Awakening... the rapture factor for Awakening... the serenity factor for Awakening... the concentration factor for Awakening... the equanimity factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. This is called the exertion to develop.

And what is the exertion to maintain? There is the case where a monk maintains a favorable theme of concentration — the skeleton perception, the worm-eaten perception, the livid perception, the festering perception, the falling-apart perception, the bloated perception. This is called the exertion to maintain. [AN 4.14]

And how is a person ardent? There is the case where a monk thinks, 'The arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he arouses ardor. 'The non-abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities... The non-arising of unarisen skillful qualities... The ceasing of arisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he arouses ardor. This is what it means to be ardent.

And how is a person concerned? There is the case where a monk thinks, 'The arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he feels concern. 'The non-abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities... The non-arising of unarisen skillful qualities... The ceasing of arisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he feels concern. This is what it means to be concerned. This is how a person ardent &amp; concerned is capable of self-awakening, capable of Unbinding, capable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage. [SN16.2]

[W]hen an individual with an internal blemish discerns, as it actually is, that 'I have an internal blemish,' it can be expected of him that he will generate desire, endeavor, &amp; arouse persistence for the abandoning of that blemish. [MN 5]

If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth &amp; drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, &amp; alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities, just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, &amp; alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head.... [AN 10.51]

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:51 pm
Title: Re: Did the Buddha teach strict determinism?
Content:
It's important to understand the object of negation. SN 22.59 is negating the notion of a permanent Self which is not subject to affliction/dis-ease. It is not negating functional choice. The Self which is being negated in SN 22.59 is a Self which would be:
1. permanent
2. satisfactory
3. not subject to affliction/dis-ease

This Self is refuted: a permanent, satisfactory Self which is not prone to old age, sickness, and death. As SN 22.59 states:
Bhikkhus, form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness is not-self. Were form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness self, then this form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness would not lead to affliction/dis-ease.

This criterion of affliction/disease is context for the following statement that:
none can have it of form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness: 'Let my form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness be thus, let my form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness be not thus.'

This in no way negates functional choice.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:47 am
Title: Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?
Content:
Cetanā is volitional intention, the will-to-do, the intentional directing of the mind. It is functional choice. Just because a particular mind-stream doesn't have all of the optimal requisite causes and conditions in place to always make the most optimally efficacious choice doesn't mean that cetanā isn't functional choice.

Contact is concomitant with volitional intention. The path includes developing fundamental attention (yoniso manasikāra), right effort (sammāvāyāma), and right exertion (sammappadhānā), which condition desire (chanda), volitional intention (cetanā), and so on. Functional choice isn't independent of other causes and conditions -- it operates within the same conditioned mind-stream. But it does operate, and it does so in consort with desire and attention, etc. Hence there is no need for Cartesian notions of free will or Upaniṣadic notions of a permanent, unchanging Self for there to be functional choice. In fact, these non-Buddhist systems are not sustainable precisely because of the interdependence of phenomena: i.e. an unchanging agent cannot engage in actions, etc.
There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds &amp; exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, &amp; culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right exertions.

Just as the River Ganges flows to the east, slopes to the east, inclines to the east, in the same way when a monk develops &amp; pursues the four right exertions, he flows to Unbinding, slopes to Unbinding, inclines to Unbinding. [SN.49.1]

There are these four exertions. Which four? The exertion to guard, the exertion to abandon, the exertion to develop, &amp; the exertion to maintain.

And what is the exertion to guard? There is the case where a monk, on seeing a form with the eye, does not grasp at any theme or variations by which — if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye — evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. He practices with restraint. He guards the faculty of the eye. He achieves restraint with regard to the faculty of the eye. (Similarly with the ear, nose, tongue, body, &amp; intellect.) This is called the exertion to guard.

And what is the exertion to abandon? There is the case where a monk does not acquiesce to a thought of sensuality that has arisen [in him]. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, wipes it out of existence. He does not acquiesce to a thought of ill will... a thought of violence... any evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen [in him]. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, wipes them out of existence. This is called the exertion to abandon.

And what is the exertion to develop? There is the case where a monk develops the mindfulness factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops the investigation of qualities factor for Awakening... the persistence factor for Awakening... the rapture factor for Awakening... the serenity factor for Awakening... the concentration factor for Awakening... the equanimity factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. This is called the exertion to develop.

And what is the exertion to maintain? There is the case where a monk maintains a favorable theme of concentration — the skeleton perception, the worm-eaten perception, the livid perception, the festering perception, the falling-apart perception, the bloated perception. This is called the exertion to maintain. [AN 4.14]

And how is a person ardent? There is the case where a monk thinks, 'The arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he arouses ardor. 'The non-abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities... The non-arising of unarisen skillful qualities... The ceasing of arisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he arouses ardor. This is what it means to be ardent.

And how is a person concerned? There is the case where a monk thinks, 'The arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he feels concern. 'The non-abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities... The non-arising of unarisen skillful qualities... The ceasing of arisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he feels concern. This is what it means to be concerned. This is how a person ardent &amp; concerned is capable of self-awakening, capable of Unbinding, capable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage. [SN16.2]

[W]hen an individual with an internal blemish discerns, as it actually is, that 'I have an internal blemish,' it can be expected of him that he will generate desire, endeavor, &amp; arouse persistence for the abandoning of that blemish. [MN 5]

If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth &amp; drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, &amp; alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities, just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, &amp; alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head.... [AN 10.51]

Moreover, just because there is no permanent undying self as the agent controlling the aggregates or within the aggregates does not mean that there is no conscious, functional, volitional self-agency operating. AN 6.38 Attakāra Sutta:
"This, master Gotama, is my my doctrine; this is my view: There is no self-agency/acting (attakāra); there is no other-agency/acting (parakāra)."

"Never, brahman, have I seen or heard of such a doctrine, such a view. How indeed can one step forward, how can one step back, yet say: 'There is no self-agency/acting; there is no other-agency/acting'? What do you think, brahman, is there such a thing as initiative?"

"Yes, sir."

"That being so, are beings known to initiate?"

"Yes, sir."

"Well, brahman, since there is such a thing as initiative and beings are known to initiate, this among beings is self-agency; this is other-agency."

"What do you think, brahmin, is there such a thing as stepping away ... such a thing as stepping forward ... such a thing as stopping ... such a thing as standing still ... such a thing as stepping toward?"

"Yes, sir."

"That being so, are beings known to do all these things?"

"Yes, sir."

"Well, brahmin, since there is such a thing as stepping away and stepping forward, and the rest, and beings are known to do these things, this among beings is self-agency/acting; this is other-agency/acting. Never, Brahmin, I have seen or heard of such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How indeed can one step forward, how can one step back, yet say: 'There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency'?"

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:35 pm
Title: Re: Uncertainty
Content:
Hi Sanghmitta &amp; all,

From Food for the Heart: "Not Sure!" - The Standard of the Noble Ones:
The Buddha is still alive to this very day, go in and find him. Where is he? At aniccam, go in and find him there, go and bow to him: aniccam, uncertainty. You can stop right there for starters.

If the mind tries to tell you, ''I'm a sotāpanna now,'' go and bow to the sotāpanna. He'll tell you himself, ''It's all uncertain.'' If you meet a sakadāgāmī go and pay respects to him. When he sees you he'll simply say, ''Not a sure thing!'' If there is an anāgāmī go and bow to him. He'll tell you only one thing... ''Uncertain.'' If you meet even an arahant, go and bow to him, he'll tell you even more firmly, ''It's all even more uncertain!'' You'll hear the words of the Noble Ones... ''Everything is uncertain, don't cling to anything.''

And:
All the teachings in this world can be contained in this one teaching: aniccam. Think about it. I've searched for over forty years as a monk and this is all I could find. That and patient endurance. This is how to approach the Buddha's teaching... aniccam: it's all uncertain.

No matter how sure the mind wants to be, just tell it, ''Not sure!'' Whenever the mind wants to grab on to something as a sure thing, just say, ''It's not sure, it's transient.'' Just ram it down with this. Using the Dhamma of the Buddha it all comes down to this. It's not that it's merely a momentary phenomenon. Whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, you see everything in that way. Whether liking arises or dislike arises you see it all in the same way. This is getting close to the Buddha, close to the Dhamma.

Now I feel that this is a more valuable way to practice. All my practice from the early days up to the present time has been like this. I didn't actually rely on the scriptures, but then I didn't disregard them either. I didn't rely on a teacher but then I didn't exactly ''go it alone.'' My practice was all ''neither this nor that.''

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:58 pm
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
Again, context is everything. Lest the dhamma be reduced to a two-dimensional caricature as per Alex and Robert's analysis given above.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:54 pm
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
The dynamic complexity which you fail to account for is that at any given moment there are conditional causes as well as other conditions present. Any of these causes or other conditions can introduce change into the conditional processes which can potentially yield numerous different possible results, including possible unexpected results.

Moreover, simplistic reductionism cannot account for dynamic systems such as biological systems or mind-streams or sentient beings. An ordered, functioning system cannot be reduced to the sum of its parts. A living cell cannot be reduced to the molecules which comprise it. A complex living organism cannot be reduced to to the cells which comprise it. In the context of a mind-stream, a healthy functioning ego cannot simply be reduced to the aggregates which comprise it (or more precisely, from which it emerges). Why? Because there are pathological mind-streams which have all of the same component parts (i.e. feeling, apperception, contact, attention, intention, desire, etc.), yet a healthy, functional ego (which is a dynamic system) doesn't emerge from these component parts. This is why many contemporary insight meditation teachers have recognized that no significant progress can be made by employing the path of gradual training unless the student is in good mental health. Hence the well known phrase: "You have to be somebody before you can be nobody."
Holism (from ὅλος holos, a Greek word meaning all, whole, entire, total) is the idea that all the properties of a given system (physical, biological, chemical, social, economic, mental, linguistic, etc.) cannot be determined or explained by its component parts alone. Instead, the system as a whole determines in an important way how the parts behave.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:22 pm
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
I certainly don't see any support for a strict determinism in the suttas. But a qualified determinism compatible with free will may be applicable. For example, see What Kind Of Free Will Did The Buddha Teach? by Asaf Federman. If you read it I'd be interested to hear what you think of his conclusions. (Also related: Daniel Dennett, Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting.)

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:42 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
Indeed.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:39 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
Desire and attention and volitional choice can all be concomitant causes or effects. Freedom of choice isn't independent of other causes and conditions -- it operates within the same conditioned mind-stream. But it does operate, and it does so in consort with desire and attention, and so on. Hence there is no need for Cartesian notions of free will or Upaniṣadic notions of a permanent, unchanging Self for there to be freedom to choose. In fact, these non-Buddhist systems are not sustainable precisely because of the interdependence of phenomena: i.e. an unchanging agent cannot engage in actions, etc.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:16 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
One can develop calm (samatha) and integral composure (sammāsamādhi). This refines contacts and can certainly alter one's kamma.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:13 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
Your arguments referencing a permanent Self are straw-man arguments because no one here is proposing a permanent Self as the agent of choices or actions.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:01 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
My thinking isn't reliant upon simplistic ābhidhammika reductionism.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:39 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
This straw-man argumentation is nothing but an attempt at misdirecting the discussion. No replies that I have read here are proposing a permanent Self. Please stick to the discussion at hand.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:35 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
You're misreading SN 22.59. I have already pointed this out. Thus your entire argument has no basis.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:28 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
No, stepping forward and stepping backward are conscious, volitional actions.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:16 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
What Ñāṇa said is completely relevant. It exposes the error of relying on simplistic reductionist ābhidhammika thinking. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:53 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
This passage is refuting the notion that there is a permanent self as the agent controlling the aggregates or within the aggregates which is not subject to old age and death. It does not mean that there is no volitional freedom to choose available to us.

AN 6.38 Attakāra Sutta:
"This, master Gotama, is my my doctrine; this is my view: There is no self-agency/acting (attakāra); there is no other-agency/acting (parakāra)."

"Never, brahman, have I seen or heard of such a doctrine, such a view. How indeed can one step forward, how can one step back, yet say: 'There is no self-agency/acting; there is no other-agency/acting'? What do you think, brahman, is there such a thing as initiative?"

"Yes, sir."

"That being so, are beings known to initiate?"

"Yes, sir."

"Well, brahman, since there is such a thing as initiative and beings are known to initiate, this among beings is self-agency; this is other-agency." 

"What do you think, brahmin, is there such a thing as stepping away ... such a thing as stepping forward ... such a thing as stopping ... such a thing as standing still ... such a thing as stepping toward?"

"Yes, sir."

"That being so, are beings known to do all these things?" 

"Yes, sir."

"Well, brahmin, since there is such a thing as stepping away and stepping forward, and the rest, and beings are known to do these things, this among beings is self-agency/acting; this is other-agency/acting. Never, Brahmin, I have seen or heard of such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How indeed can one step forward, how can one step back, yet say: 'There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency'?"

Just because there is no permanent undying self as the agent controlling the aggregates or within the aggregates does not mean that there is no conscious, volitional self-agency operating.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:42 am
Title: Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta
Content:
My goodness Alex, where do you get this stuff? I'm glad I'm not stuck in your world!...

Cetanā is volitional intention, the will-to-do, the intentional directing of the mind. It is choice. Just because a particular mind-stream doesn't have all of the optimal requisite causes and conditions in place to always make the most optimally efficacious choice doesn't mean that cetanā isn't volitional intention.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:15 am
Title: Re: Biography of Luang Por Sumetho on Youtube
Content:



Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:37 pm
Title: Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?
Content:
Hi Agmanellium,

It's better to just attend to the practice in the present. These audio mp3 teachings by Ven. Ṭhānissaro are very clear and to the point:
A Recipe For Jhāna by Ven. Ṭhānissaro.

The Four Jhāna-s by Ven. Ṭhānissaro.

At Home In Jhāna by Ven. Ṭhānissaro.

The Safety of Jhāna by Ven. Ṭhānissaro.


These teachings by Ven. Gunaratana may also be helpful. What is samatha-vipassanā? (Pt 1):

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What is samatha-vipassanā? (Pt 2):

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Why do some teachers warn against practicing jhāna-s?

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What are the benefits of practicing jhāna-s? (Pt 1):

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What are the benefits of practicing jhāna-s? (Pt 2):

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All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:03 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Because the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka is a complete system of gradual training.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:56 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Point taken. But it does depend on whom I'm replying to, and the context of the discussion at hand. When engaging in these types of discussions I don't see much point in breaking things down for people who haven't trained in the stuff that 5heaps (for example) is talking about. If anyone is interested in finding out more, there is Google.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:25 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
The Pāḷi dhamma is a complete system of gradual training. It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:15 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Perhaps it would be better for you to not read my replies Alan.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:19 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Good quote Hanzze. It looks like someone has accurately described the Pāḷi dhamma understanding of suññatā on that Wikipedia page. Maybe it was Ven. Huifeng (a.k.a. Paññāsikhara)?...

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:11 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
I think you're reading him accurately. It's not that there is only proliferation (papañca); it's that phenomena (dhamma-s) do not need to be (and indeed cannot be) established as ultimately existent ontological realities.

The individuation of particular dhamma-s requires the concomitant engagement of consciousness (viññāṇa) and name (nāma: vedanā, saññā, phassa, cetanā, manasikāra) specific to whatever dhamma is being cognitively individuated. Thus, all such individuation of particulars is fabricated, relational, and conventional.

A thorough understanding of this process of individuation exposes the problem of deluded cognition, and when the problem is thoroughly discerned one can then begin to abandon unskillful processes and develop skillful mental factors such as saddhā, pāmojja, pīti, passaddhi, sukha, samādhi. Beyond this, one begins to clearly see the futility of fabricated processes altogether. As this clear seeing (vipassanā) develops, disenchantment (nibbidā) arises. Then dispassion (virāga) arises. Then as these qualities continue to develop, eventually the path results in liberation through discernment (paññāvimutti) and one realizes the gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa) of the influxes (āsava-s), also referred to as the elimination of craving (taṇhakkhaya) as a shorthand expression.

All of this is developmental and soteriological. The path doesn't require establishing philosophical theories and proofs of valid cognition (pamāṇa) or ultimately existent objects. From the perspective of the early Pāḷi dhamma all of this sort of theorizing is just more proliferation (papañca). Nothing needs to be philosophically established beyond the status of mere designation (paññattimatta). This in no way entails nihilism because the dhammavinaya isn't a philosophical head trip; all components of path praxis are to be fully engaged and developed (bhāvanā).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:15 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
From a developmental perspective the real gems of the Tibetan systems are lojong, tonglen, lujong, and the dzogrim of trulkhor, tsalung, etc. Without a foundation in these affective and somatic practices the study of the tenet systems is rather anemic.

The Pāḷi dhamma has its own affective and somatic developmental practices without the esoteric structure of the vajrayāna. The Pāḷi dhamma also has little need for the tenet systems of Tibetan lamrim.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:14 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi Sylvester,

That's good to hear. Thanks.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:53 am
Title: Re: Are letting go and accepting the same thing?
Content:
Hi Bhante &amp; all,

The way leading to the cessation of unsatisfactoriness is to be developed (dukkhanirodhagāminīpaṭipadā bhāvetabba). In a path context, phrases indicate practice injunctions which are to be applied. In a more fruitional context, phrases indicate gnosis which is to be realized by the application of the path, i.e. gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa), gnosis and vision of liberation (vimuttiñāṇadassana), etc.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:45 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
And how are you going to establish the objective validity your momentary thing "that maintains its characteristic nature as it is undergoing subtlest change"? If you rely on any criterion or measurement (pamāṇa) based on deluded worldly cognitions, then all you will ever "prove" is that deluded worldly cognitions are deluded. Not a valid source for establishing the unerring validity of any supposed objective truth-claims. Sn 3.12 Dvayatānupassanā Sutta:
Entrenched in name and form, 
They conceive that “This is true.”

In whatever way (worldlings) conceive it,
It turns out other than that.
For that is what is false about it.
Whatever is transitory certainly has a false nature.

If, on the other hand, you attempt to employ any criterion or measurement (pamāṇa) in order to try to establish liberated cognitons, then you will also be at a loss because there are no means of measurement which can be used as reference points to validate a measureless cognition (appamāṇacetasa). SN 6.7 (S i 148) Kokālika Sutta:
What wise man here would seek to define
A measureless one by taking his measure?
He who would measure a measureless one
Must be, I think, an obstructed worldling.

Better to practice satipaṭṭhāna and begin to relinquish notions of objective truth-claims about theories of radical momentariness.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:03 am
Title: Re: the great rebirth debate
Content:
Indeed. Reflecting on our own mortality can be a very helpful practice (even if one is still inclined to not accept post-mortem becoming).
There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five?

'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' This is the second fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' This is the third fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' This is the fourth fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' This is the fifth fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. [AN 5.57]


When this was said, the Blessed One addressed the monks. "Whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for a day &amp; night... for a day... for the interval that it takes to eat a meal... for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedlessly. They develop mindfulness of death slowly for the sake of ending the effluents.

"But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents. [AN 6.19]

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:15 am
Title: Re: Are letting go and accepting the same thing?
Content:
Yes, quite a bit more (see above entry by Ven. Anālayo).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:10 am
Title: Re: What did the Buddha have to say about God?
Content:
Reply moved here to avoid taking this thread off topic.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:15 am
Title: Re: Looking for a term.
Content:
Buswell mentions the Theravāda idea of ekantakāḷaka from the Abhidhamma Puggalapaññatti and its commentary here.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:54 am
Title: Re: Theravada's Equivalent of Zen's Kensho?
Content:
Hi Bhante,

Pāḷi sources also mention the stage of vision (dassanabhūmi, compare with darśanamārga) of stream entry followed by the stage of cultivation (bhāvanābhūmi, compare with bhāvanāmārga), but without all of the details found in the Sarvāstivāda and Yogācāra.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:08 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Phenomena arise according to specifically assignable conditionality (idappaccayatā):
When this is, that is. 
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

Therefore, phenomena aren't utterly non-existent.

Phenomena cease according to specifically assignable conditionality (idappaccayatā):
When this isn't, that isn't. 
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

Therefore, phenomena aren't ultimately existent.

Moreover, the individuation of phenomena requires apperceptive memory recognition (saññā) and conceptual designation (paññatti) for differentiation. All such individuation is fabricated, relational, and conventional, and therefore phenomena cannot be established as ultimately existent. Ven. Ñāṇananda, The Magic of the Mind (p. 63):
It would indeed appear strange to us that in Buddhist psychology even contact and feeling – with which we are so intimate – are treated as ‘designations’ (paññatti). We might feel that this is an intrusion of the ‘designation’ into the jealously guarded recesses of the psyche. Yet this is not the case, for, in the very act of apperception contacts and feelings are reckoned, evaluated, defined, and designated on the basis of one’s latencies (i.e. the aggregates). Thus there is hardly any justification for regarding them as ‘the given’, though we are accustomed to take them for granted. In other words, what we are wont to treat as ‘the given,’ turns out to be ‘synthetic’ and ‘composite’ (saṅkhata).

Noa Ronkin, Early Buddhist Metaphysics: The Making of a Philosophical Tradition (p. 247):
“Neither conceptualizing, nor conceptualizing wrongly, nor lacking conceptualization, nor conceptualizing nothing – in one who has achieved this state sensory recognizable experience (rupa) ceases, for what is called ‘verbal proliferation’ (papañca) has its origin in conceptualization.”

What comes to a halt according to this description is but namarupa: nama referring to all that is conceived of, thus providing an abstract, conceptual identity for the person, rupa designating the physically (though not necessarily visibly) recognizable data, that is, all that lends itself to apperception and that is given shape by means of sensory impression. Covering the range of whatever is either conceived or apperceived, namarupa therefore signifies the entirety of what is cognizable.
All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:58 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Impermanence has no soteriological utility except as this concept relates to impermanent phenomena (as phenomena are experienced). Apperception/recognition of impermanence (aniccasaññā) involves attending to an appearance of impermanence (aniccākāra). This appearance of impermanence is recognized via a sign/representation (nimitta).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:49 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Yeah. As I indicated in a previous reply to Sobeh, I think that if we are to draw any comparisons between the dhamma and western philosophy the most appropriate comparison might be with some aspects of first-person phenomenological description. That is, Husserl's method of phenomenological description where one attends to the contents of one's conscious experience while setting aside (i.e. bracketing) the question of the ontological existence of the contents of this experience altogether. Of course, there's no need for any further comparison beyond this general methodological framework. I'm not suggesting that we attempt to read Husserl or Merleau-Ponty into the dhamma....

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:03 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
I would suggest that it would be much more beneficial to place all this tenet system nonsense on the shelf and practice satipaṭṭhāna.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:48 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
The individuation of phenomena requires apperceptive memory recognition (saññā) and conceptual designation (paññatti) for differentiation. All such individuation is relational and conventional and therefore phenomena cannot be ultimately established as “truly existing” (sabhāvasiddhi).

Ven. Ñāṇananda, The Magic of the Mind (pp. 62-63):
According to the phenomenalistic approach of the Buddha, not only the different types of feelings and mental states but the entire range of doctrinal categories summed up under the last section [of the Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta] i.e. ‘contemplation of mind-objects,’ has nothing in it that is worth ‘clinging to.’ All of them can be subsumed under the term ‘concept’ and that is to recognize their conditioned nature – the nature of arising and ceasing.

“Friends, when there is the eye and there are forms and there is eye-consciousness, it is possible that one will point out a designation of contact (phassapaññatti). When there is a designation of contact, it is possible that one will point out a designation of feeling (vedanāpaññatti). When there is a designation of feeling, it is possible that one will point out a designation of perception (saññāpaññatti). When there is a designation of perception, it is possible that one will point out a designation of thought (vitakkapaññatti). When there is a designation of thought, it is possible that one will point out a designation of obsession due to reckonings born of prolific perception (papañcasaññāsaṅkhāsamudācaraṇapaññatti).

“When there is the ear... When there is the nose... When there is the tongue... When there is the body...

“When there is the mind and there are mental phenomena and there is mental-consciousness, it is possible that one will point out a designation of contact. When there is a designation of contact, it is possible that one will point out a designation of feeling. When there is a designation of feeling, it is possible that one will point out a designation of perception. When there is a designation of perception, it is possible that one will point out a designation of thought. When there is a designation of thought, it is possible that one will point out a designation of obsession due to reckonings born of prolific perception.” – M I 112 Madhupiṇḍika Sutta

It would indeed appear strange to us that in Buddhist psychology even contact and feeling – with which we are so intimate – are treated as ‘designations’ (paññatti). We might feel that this is an intrusion of the ‘designation’ into the jealously guarded recesses of the psyche. Yet this is not the case, for, in the very act of apperception contacts and feelings are reckoned, evaluated, defined, and designated on the basis of one’s latencies (i.e. the aggregates). Thus there is hardly any justification for regarding them as ‘the given’, though we are accustomed to take them for granted. In other words, what we are wont to treat as ‘the given,’ turns out to be ‘synthetic’ and ‘composite’ (saṅkhata).

Noa Ronkin, Early Buddhist Metaphysics: The Making of a Philosophical Tradition (pp. 245-247):
The Buddha’s insight reveals that the causal foundation for one’s samsaric experience is the operation of one’s cognitive apparatus. One’s experience in its entirety arises from the cognitive process of making sense of the incoming sensory data. Basic to this process is the khandha of conceptualization and apperception, namely, sañña, the activity of which results in the identification and differentiation of the incoming data. This identification process necessarily involves naming. As Hamilton points out, in describing the way identification is part of sorting out incoming experiential data the early Buddhist texts emphasize that naming is equivalent to what is called ‘making manifold’ of those data. ‘One might say’, Hamilton suggests, ‘that the process of making manifold in order to identify is the process of making nameable the aspects of one’s experience’. Indeed the Pali term for making manifold, papañceti, also means ‘verbal differentiation’, or ‘verbal proliferation’. All this verbal differentiation adds up to language, for, as the apperceptive process develops, one is imposing on the sensory influx categories and references that can be indicated by means of language. Language, then, is intrinsic to our experience: it provides the conceptual criteria and framework by which we make sense of our experience, or rather, by which we construct our world.

The Buddha, however, unveils not only the dominance of language and conceptual thought, but also their inherent insufficiency and inadequacy. Although language is a constant feature of our experience, we are normally unaware of the paradox in the cognitive process: to become knowable all the incoming sensory data must be verbally differentiated, but as such they are mere constructions, mental formations; nothing justifies their reliability because they could equally have been constructed otherwise, in accordance with other conventional guidelines. What the Buddha rejects is realism, conceptual and ontological alike: the notion that the encountered world is made up of distinguishable substances, and the linguistic theory that words refer to these substances which they represent; the conviction that our language corresponds to or mirrors a mind-independent reality. He points towards conventionalism in language and undermines the misleading character of nouns as substance-words. Whatever we can know is part of the activity of language, but language, by its very nature, undermines certified knowledge. The Buddha shows that language is, in principle, faulty: having the power to make manifold and endlessly to proliferate, it makes things appear and disappear; it can construct anything and hence cannot be representational of reality. There can be no innocence of relations between word and world....

Stated otherwise, samsaric experience is rooted in our cognitive apparatus: to rely on our conceptual scheme and language the way we normally do amounts to emotionally and intellectually grasping at and fixing our experience. Having recognized the fiction and imaginative creation inherent in conceptual thought and language, the awakened mind breaks up the apparently solid world that we construct for ourselves. To realize that words and concepts do not name anything, do not represent anything – what could be closer to silence and the eschewal of all views?

Noticeable in this context is the Atthakavagga of the Suttanipata, which promulgates an ascetic discipline of silence and repudiation of our very cognitive apparatus as based on linguistic and conceptual delineation:

“Neither conceptualizing, nor conceptualizing wrongly, nor lacking conceptualization, nor conceptualizing nothing – in one who has achieved this state sensory recognizable experience (rupa) ceases, for what is called ‘verbal proliferation’ (papañca) has its origin in conceptualization.”

What comes to a halt according to this description is but namarupa: nama referring to all that is conceived of, thus providing an abstract, conceptual identity for the person, rupa designating the physically (though not necessarily visibly) recognizable data, that is, all that lends itself to apperception and that is given shape by means of sensory impression. Covering the range of whatever is either conceived or apperceived, namarupa therefore signifies the entirety of what is cognizable. That namarupa is related to papañca is attested by another Suttanipata passage located in the Mahavagga:

“Having understood namarupa as verbal proliferation ( papañca) that is the root of inward and outward disease, one is released from bondage to the root of all disease. Such a one is called in truth ‘one who knows well’.”

Ven. Ñāṇananda, Concept and Reality In Early Buddhist Thought (p. 87):
The primary significance of the formula of Dependent Arising lies here. Lists of phenomena, both mental and material, are linked together with the term "paccayā" or any of its equivalents, and the fact of their conditionality and non-substantiality is emphasized with the help of analysis and synthesis. Apart from serving the immediate purpose of their specific application, these formulas help us to attune our minds in order to gain paññā. Neither the words in these formulas, nor the formulas as such, are to be regarded as ultimate categories. We have to look not so much at them as through them. We must not miss the wood for the trees by dogmatically clinging to the words in the formulas as being ultimate categories. As concepts, they are merely the modes in which the flux of material and mental life has been arrested and split up in the realm of ideation....

Concept and Reality (pp. 55–56):
Concepts – be they material or spiritual, worldly or transcendental – are not worthy of being grasped dogmatically. They are not to be treated as ultimate categories and are to be discarded in the course of the spiritual endeavour.... That the emancipated sage (muni) no longer clings even to such concepts as "nibbāna" or "detachment" (virāga) is clearly indicated in the following verse of the Sutta Nipāta:

"For the Brahmin (the Muni) who has transcended all bounds, there is nothing that is grasped by knowing or by seeing. He is neither attached to attachment nor is he attached to detachment. In this world, he has grasped nothing as the highest." [Sn 795]

Sn 3.12: Dvayatānupassanā Sutta:
Entrenched in name and form, 
They conceive that “This is true.”

In whatever way (worldlings) conceive it,
It turns out other than that.
For that is what is false about it.
Whatever is transitory certainly has a false nature.

But nibbāna does not have a false nature.
That the noble ones truly know.
Through fully comprehending the truth,
They are without hunger, quenched.

Ud 3.10 (Ud 32) Loka Sutta:
This anguished world, 
Afflicted by contact,
Speaks of a disease as self.
By whatever terms it conceives of (anything),
It turns out other than that.
Although becoming otherwise, the world is held by existence,
Afflicted by existence, yet delights in that very existence.
Where there is delight, there is fear.
What it fears is unsatisfactory.
This holy life is lived for the abandoning of that existence.

Whatever ascetics or brahmans say that emancipation from existence is by means of existence, all of them are not liberated from existence, I say.

And whatever ascetics or brahmans say that escape from existence is by means of non-existence, all of them have not escaped from existence, I say.

When one relinquishes infatuation with all apperceptions and conceptual designations regarding both existence and non-existence then it is possible to find peace. Also, there is no soteriological necessity for categorizing any dhamma-s as paramattha, except in reference to nibbāna as the highest goal or the highest good. Ven.Ñāṇananda, Concept and Reality In Early Buddhist Thought (pp. 44-45):
[T]he word ‘paramattha’ in its earlier and non-technical usage, actually meant the Highest Goal as the object of realization, and any words tending towards that goal were called ‘paramatthasaṃhita’ (connected with the Highest Goal), irrespective of their precision or technicality. However, the Buddha, for his part, was content to treat all of them as ‘sammuti’. For him, they were ‘merely worldly conventions in common use, which he made use of, without clinging to them’ (DN I 202).

Ven. Ñāṇananda, The Mind Stilled, Nibbāna Sermon 13:
[Nibbāna] is not a paramattha in the sense of an absolute. It is a paramattha only in the sense that it is the highest good, parama attha. This is the sense in which the word was used in the discourses, though it has different connotations now. As exemplified by such quotations as āraddhaviriyo paramatthapattiyā, "with steadfast energy for the attainment of the highest good", the suttas speak of Nibbāna as the highest good to be attained.

In later Buddhist thought, however, the word paramattha came to acquire absolutist connotations, due to which some important discourses of the Buddha on the question of worldly appellations, worldly expressions and worldly designations fell into disuse. This led to an attitude of dwelling in the scaffolding, improvised just for the purpose of constructing a building....

t is not proper to relegate some sermons as discursive or conventional in style. Always it is a case of using concepts in worldly parlance. In the laboratory one uses a particular set of symbols, but on returning home he uses another. In the same way, it is not possible to earmark a particular bundle of concepts as absolute and unchangeable. As stated in the Poṭṭhapādasutta, already discussed, all these concepts are worldly appellations, worldly expressions, worldly usages, worldly designations, which the Tathāgata makes use of without tenacious grasping. However philosophical or technical the terminology may be, the arahants make use of it without grasping it tenaciously. What is of importance is the function it fulfils. We should make use of the conceptual scaffolding only for the purpose of putting up the building. As the building comes up, the scaffolding has to leave. It has to be dismantled. If one simply clings onto the scaffolding, the building would never come up.


All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:07 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
I've already addressed the inappropriateness of applying realist ontology to the Buddha's dhamma a number of times on this thread and elsewhere. There is no need whatsoever to impute substantial existence onto phenomena as they are experienced. It's a complete sidetrack; an infatuation with views.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:57 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Do you practice satipaṭṭhāna? Specifically, either mindfulness of breathing (ānāpānassati), or observation of feelings (vedanānupassanā), or observation of dhammas (dhammānupassanā) pertaining to the mind sensory sphere and mental phenomena sensory sphere?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:39 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Hi Sherab,

The dhamma is concerned with soteriology not ontology. All of the practice injunctions included in the three aggregations of ethical conduct, meditation, and discernment have the four noble truths as their underlying thematic structure. In MN 28 (M i 184) Mahāhatthipadopama Sutta we find Venerable Sāriputta comparing the four noble truths to an elephants footprint. He says:
Friends, just as the footprints of all walking animals can be placed within an elephants footprint, and the elephants footprint is declared as foremost amongst them in terms of its large size; in the same way, all skillful dhamma-s are included within the four noble truths.

Specifically, all practices lead towards and culminate in the full realization of the third noble truth: the cessation of unsatisfactoriness. As SN 45.91 (S v 38) Pācīnaninna Sutta states:
Monks, just as the Ganges river flows, slopes, and inclines to the east; in the same way, a monk who develops and cultivates the noble eightfold path flows towards nibbāna, slopes towards nibbāna, inclines towards nibbāna.

Moreover, these noble truths are epistemic. They are the undeceptive knowledge of unmistaken cognitions. They are not ontological realities. There is no need for ontological commitments, i.e. there is no need to establish phenomena as truly existing. All such proofs and refutations are quite irrelevant and are rooted in unskillful adherence to views.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:59 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Is it? I'm certainly interested in finding the most appropriate designations for phenomenological description (i.e. the bracketed description of lived experience). In this context, English designations which accurately describe alteration while persisting (ṭhitassa aññathatta). Any suggestions are welcome.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:02 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
There is no need to suggest that feelings, perceptions, or thoughts "endure unchanged for at least a certain interval." AN 3.47:
Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible.

SN 35.93:
In dependence on the eye &amp; forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Forms are inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Thus this pair is both wavering &amp; fluctuating — inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise.

Eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Whatever is the cause, the requisite condition, for the arising of eye-consciousness, that is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Having arisen in dependence on an inconstant factor, how could eye-consciousness be constant?

The coming together, the meeting, the convergence of these three phenomena is eye-contact. Whatever is the cause, the requisite condition, for the arising of eye-contact, that is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Having arisen in dependence on an inconstant factor, how could eye-contact be constant?

Contacted, one feels. Contacted, one intends. Contacted, one perceives. These phenomena are both wavering &amp; fluctuating — inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. This is how it's in dependence on a pair that eye-consciousness comes into play.

In dependence on the ear &amp; sounds there arises ear-consciousness...

In dependence on the nose &amp; aromas there arises nose-consciousness...

In dependence on the tongue &amp; flavors there arises tongue-consciousness...

In dependence on the body &amp; tactile sensations there arises body-consciousness...

In dependence on the intellect &amp; ideas there arises intellect-consciousness. The intellect is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Ideas are inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Thus this pair is both wavering &amp; fluctuating — inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise.

Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Whatever is the cause, the requisite condition, for the arising of intellect-consciousness, that is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Having arisen in dependence on an inconstant factor, how could intellect-consciousness be constant?

The coming together, the meeting, the convergence of these three phenomena is intellect-contact. Whatever is the cause, the requisite condition, for the arising of intellect-contact, that is inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. Having arisen in dependence on an inconstant factor, how could intellect-contact be constant?

Contacted, one feels. Contacted, one intends. Contacted, one perceives. These phenomena are both wavering &amp; fluctuating — inconstant, changeable, of a nature to become otherwise. This is how it's in dependence on a pair that intellect-consciousness comes into play.

There also is no reason to read the commentarial theory of radical momentariness into these passages either. (On the theory of radical momentariness and the historical development of this theory see this post.)

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:01 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
It's a subjective evaluation being conveyed as a subjective evaluation. 

Moreover, it's a subjective evaluation which considers the dhamma interpreted through western philosophy and symbolic logic to be far less direct, less practical, and less skillful than the dhamma unencumbered by such unnecessary intellectual head trips.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:56 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Hi Sobeh,

Ven. Ñāṇavīra was one of the first people in a very long time to question the authority and validity of the received commentarial tradition. IMO this was intellectually honest and necessary. He offered much in order to begin to clear the path. But it was just a beginning. He wasn't always 100% correct and his approach and writing style are not straightforward. A diligent, disinterested practitioner can accept Ven. Ñāṇavīra's pioneering contributions while also seeing that it's now possible to approach the dhamma even more directly.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:11 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
I would suggest that Ven. Ñāṇavīra was indeed "building up a world." And this is completely relevant to the discussion at hand. IMO he didn't fully understand paṭiccasamuppāda. Nor did he understand the Theravāda commentarial view that he was trying to criticize (e.g. see this post).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:17 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Hi Blackbird &amp; all,

Worldly paṇḍitas, i.e. paṇḍitas in the world (loka paṇḍita-s) are not noble disciples (ariyasāvaka-s). There are wise khattiyas (Skt. kṣatriya-s), wise brāhmaṇas, wise householders, and wise ascetics (cf. S iii 6: khattiyapaṇḍitā, brāhmaṇapaṇḍitā, gahapatipaṇḍitā, samaṇapaṇḍitā) who haven’t penetrated conditioned arising in both forward and reverse sequence.

Noble disciples, on the other hand, have penetrated conditioned arising in both forward and reverse sequence. Having discerned conditioned arising in forward sequence they no longer cling to views regarding non-existence (lit. “it is not”). Having discerned conditioned arising in reverse sequence they no longer cling to views regarding existence (lit. “it is”). In this way they let go of adherence to any and all ontological views. SN 12.15 (S ii 16):
By &amp; large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence &amp; non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

Sn 4.5 Paramaṭṭhaka Sutta:
[A] bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world? They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views.

Thoughts are just thoughts. Designations help to show the way leading to the cessation of unsatisfactoriness. But there is no need to create any sort of “world” out of these designations. Creating a “world” is part of the problem, not the solution.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:07 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Well, then I would suggest that you're attempting to beat a dead horse! 

And on a related note, I quit thinking in terms of vādas and yānas a long time ago. I consider everything other than the suttas of the Nikāyas and Āgamas to be a series of endnotes to the teachings of the ascetic Gotama. Some of these endnotes are more informative than others. Many just wander off into thickets of views.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:05 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
No, one is trying to end unsatisfactoriness by removing ignorant reification and craving.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:47 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Conze's and Streng's translations aren't very clear. For the first, here is a version of the line embedded within a Pāla era Indian commentary by Praśāstrasena, translated by Donald Lopez:
He was asked how [one should pratice]. Therefore, he says one should view the aggregates to be empty of intrinsic existence. The five aggregates are form, feeling, discrimination, conditioning factors, and consciousness.

Empty of intrinsic existence: there are five types of emptiness: the emp­tiness of what did not exist before, the emptiness of what does not exist after being destroyed, the emptiness of the utterly nonexistent, the empti­ness of one not existing in the other, and the emptiness of intrinsic en­tity. The absence of yogurt in milk is the emptiness of what did not exist before, the absence of milk in yogurt is the emptiness of what does not exist after being destroyed, the absence of horns on the lower part of a rabbit's head is the emptiness of the utterly nonexistent, the absence of an ox in a horse is the emptiness of one not existing in the other, and the nonintrinsic existence of all phenomena is the emptiness of intrinsic en­tity. Among the five types of emptiness, the five aggregates are empty in the sense of being without intrinsic entity; they should therefore be analyzed as empty.

As for the second, here's the verse translated by Ari Goldfield with comments by Khenpo Tsultrim Rinpoche:
Dependently arisen entities
Are called "emptiness,"
[For] that which is dependently arisen
Is that which has no inherent nature. (22)

All entities that are arisen from causes and conditions are called emptiness; they are of the nature of emptiness. That which is dependently arisen, that which arises due to causes and conditions, has no inherent nature of its own. It has no independent nature. This verse demonstrates that whatever dependently arises is necessarily empty of true existence.

For example, when we have a dream all of the different appearances that we see in a dream arise due to various causes and conditions. All of these appearances are empty. There is not one of these appearances which has any substance or any reality to it. Yet, within this emptiness, all of these appearances arise due to these various causes and conditions. Similarly, all of the appearances of this life, whatever they may be, arise due to the coming together of various causes and conditions. Therefore, all of the appearances of this life are pervaded by emptiness of any inherent or substantial existence.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:02 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
The entire path is just the skillful employment of practice injunctions in order to eliminate craving and ignorance. There is no ontology to be established. In fact, conceiving in terms of existence and non-existence is a significant part of the problem, and not the solution.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:20 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
I mean that the entire notion of inherently existent things is rooted in ignorance. This is why one has to penetrate conditioned arising in reverse sequence in order to eliminate the view that things have inherent existence. And an arahant has done just that. Therefore an arahant can use conventional language without forgetting that s/he is merely employing nominal designations.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:02 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Hi Blackbird &amp; all,

I would suspect that Ven. Ñāṇavīra was probably taking issue with the classical Theravāda theory of radical momentariness. But this theory doesn't negate true, inherent existence (sabhāvasiddhi). Thus, classical Theravāda is a realist school.

It's also worth mentioning that mahāyānikas refute realist positions regarding inherent existence (sabhāva) either by negating the apprehender, apprehended, and apprehension (grāhaka, grāhya, &amp; grahaṇa) in the case of Yogācāra, or by thorough penetration of conditioned arising (paṭiccasamuppāda, pratītyasamutpāda) in the case of Mādhyamaka. Neither of these schools rely on reasonings involving impermanence or momentary change in order to negate realist positions regarding inherent existence.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:57 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
There is no need to establish functional things as anything more than mere nominal designations (paññattimatta).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:49 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
I agree, there is no need to bring the idea of flux too far. The penetration of conditioned arising (paṭiccasamuppāda) in both forward and reverse sequence will eliminate adherence to any views of existence and non-existence.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:05 pm
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Hi Beeblebrox &amp; all,

Again, there is no need to accept the theory of radical momentariness to clearly see for oneself the alteration while persisting (ṭhitassa aññathatta) of fabrications.

And by extension, specifically regarding physical processes, if there is no alteration in the circulatory system or the central nervous system of the body (for example) then you are very likely either (i) dead, or (ii) soon to be dead. And even a dead body undergoes a process of decomposition. 

Alteration or change or flux is common to all physical things on both micro and macro levels.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:42 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi 5heaps,

Firstly, a puggala or a satta isn't a dhamma. Therefore, no Theravādin would ever even remotely suggest that a person possess sabhāva. (Nor would any Sarvāstivādin if there were actually any living Sarvāstivādins left in this world.)

Secondly, the Indian mādhyamikas thoroughly refuted the Sarvāstivāda and Sautrāntika notions of svabhāva. If you're going to base your study and practice on the Indian schools, then it's a good idea to understand Indian Mādhyamaka (i.e. not Je Tsongkhapa's hybrid system which isn't accepted by the vast majority of non-Gelugpa lamas).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:43 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi 5heaps,

This is nonsense. What school posits that persons (puggala) are sabbāva or possess sabbāva? Theravāda certainly doesn't make such claims.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:38 am
Title: Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval
Content:
Hi Tilt &amp; all,

Indeed. There is no need to accept the theory of radical momentariness to clearly see for oneself the alteration while persisting (ṭhitassa aññathatta) of mental fabrications.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:25 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi 5heaps,

Will do. Gladly. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:23 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi Mike &amp; all,

The main problem with the classical interpretation is that it defines nibbāna as an existent thing (atthi dhamma) that ultimately exists (paramatthata atthibhāva). Thus the inability to see through this whole atthi/natthi and bhāva/abhāva bifurcation.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:39 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
This answer is sublime. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:16 am
Title: Re: Snp 5.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha
Content:
Hi Mike &amp; all,

I took a look at what Ven. Ñāṇananda has to say about this sutta. In Seeing Through: A Guide to Insight Meditation he offers the following:
So actually what we have here is just a bit of bare experience. That too comes about by giving recognition to the two ends - the internal base and the external base. By recognizing them, by separating them, by discriminating between them, there arises a certain measuring. So the concept of two things striking together also follows as a matter of course. Given two things, there is a possibility of a contact between them. And this is 'contact' as the world understands it. Given this contact, there arise dependent on it, feeling, perception and all the rest of it. It goes as far as thinking and logic.

Now, this is the delusion. This is the ignorance. What, then, is the insight that helps one to unravel this state of affairs? It is the understanding of the conditioned nature of consciousness - that consciousness arises dependent on conditions. Even that insight emerges through a refined way of attending. That is, by accelerating the mental noting in such a way as not to get caught in the net of perception or saññā. In other words, to stop short at bare awareness. It is by such a technique that one can get an insight into the back stage workings of consciousness. For instance, the insight that the eye consciousness arises dependent on eye and forms and that the very discrimination between the two ends is eye-consciousness, which is the middle. This story of the two ends and the middle is beautifully presented in the Pārāyaṇa Sutta found in the Section of the Sixes in the Aṅguttara Nikāya. What forms the nucleus of that sutta is the following verse quoted from the Pārāyaṇa Vagga of the Sutta Nipāta:

'Yo ubhante viditvāna - majjhe mantā na lippati,
Taṁ brūmi mahāpurisoti - so'dha sibbanimaccagā'

This verse preached by the Buddha in reply to a question put by Brahmin Tissa Metteyya, is quoted here for comment. In a sort of a 'seminar' on the significance of this verse, six monks put forward their individual opinions thereby drawing out the deeper implications of the verse in question. The meaning of the verse, as it stands, would be something like this:

'Yo ubhante viditvāna' - He who having understood both ends
'Majjhe mantā na lippati' - Does not get attached to the middle through wisdom
'Taṁ brūmi mahāpurisoti' - Him I call a great man
'So idha sibbaniṁ accagā' - It is he who has bypassed or escaped the seamstress in this world.

'Sibbanī' or 'seamstress' is a term for craving. The function of craving is conceived here as a process of stitching or weaving. The underlying idea is the accumulation of knots. It is craving that is responsible for the knotty nature of this existence. The two ends and the middle referred to in this verse are just the things necessary for making a knot. The significance of the two ends and the middle has been variously interpreted in this sutta. According to one interpretation that came up at this symposium, the one-end means the six internal bases and the second end means the six external bases and the middle is consciousness.

By consciousness is meant the six kinds of sense-consciousness. So according to this interpretation too, we find at consciousness becomes the middle as a result of reckoning the sense and its object as two ends. It is as if two pegs have been driven as eye and forms for the measuring that is implicit in sense-perception.

The arising of this basic discrimination is called the arising of the sense-bases- 'āyatanuppāda'. And the insight into this basic discrimination is called the seeing of the arising of sense-bases. In the Soṇa Sutta, among the Sixes of the Aṅguttara Nikāya, we find the following significant verse:

'Taṇhakkhayādhimuttassa
Asammohañca cetaso
Disvā āyatanuppādaṁ
Sammā cittaṁ vimuccati'

'In one who is intent upon the destruction of craving 
and the non-delusion of the mind, 
on seeing the arising of sense-bases, 
the mind is well released.'

One may well infer from this verse that it is by the not-seeing of the arising of the bases that one remains bound - that the mind remains bound to saṁsāra. As we mentioned above, so long as there is no proper understanding of the two-ends, a middle creeps in. So long as one grasps eye and forms as the two ends, eye-consciousness comes in. That is because what is called eye-consciousness is the very discrimination of eye and form as two things. Now, in the case of the mirage, the deer thinks: 'I am here, the water is out there.' It is with this presumption that the deer runs towards the mirage. But from the very outset, this discrimination, this consciousness of water, is wrong. Therefore the deer keeps on running after the mirage. It is a vain pursuit. The more it approaches the more its object recedes. This is the nature of a mirage. But what impels the deer in its pursuit is its eye consciousness. This consciousness acts like two pegs. So the deer thinks: 'Here is my eye and there is that water. If only I can go there, I can see that real water and drink it.'

Similarly, when we grasp eye and forms as the two ends, we have driven the two pegs down to the earth, as it were. We have taken eye and forms as real. That very discrimination is eye-consciousness.

The best revelation of this state of affairs comes when one has accelerated one's speed of mental-noting to such an extent that when a thought comes to one's mind, one summarily dismisses it as a mere thinking without being carried away by it. Thereby one does not allow that thought to crystallize itself as an object. Normally, an object is something that one clings to or hangs on to. The mind which has been in the habit of clinging throughout saṁsāra, always seeks to hang on to something or the other, however frail it may be. That is because of the craving for existence. Just as a man falling down a precipice would hang on even to the frail straw for fear of the fall, the ever-new regenerator, craving - 'taṇhā ponobhavikā' - prompts one to hang on to this that or the other. But the crux of the problem lies where the mind meets its object.

Mind has the habit of hanging on to its object. Even when the five external senses do not grasp their respective objects, mind would grasp the thought as its object. One tends to think: 'Here am I, the thinker, and this is my mind-object.' So long as this bifurcation, this duality, is there, there will also be a place for mind-consciousness. In the magic-show of consciousness, mind-consciousness is the subtlest trick of all. Now in the verse quoted above, it is said that the mind is well released on seeing the arising of bases. How does this come about? When the meditator attends to the objects of the six senses rapidly and in a more refined way, without clinging to them, summarily dismissing them, in the course of his meditative attention - all of a sudden - he discovers the mind-object as soon as it strikes the mind. The relativity involved in the process of sense-contact is thereby understood and the delusion regarding the magic-show of consciousness is dispelled. Strange as it may appear, this very insight into the dependent arising of sense bases has dismantled those very sense-bases-as it were.

Of course, the process of cessation was going on all the time. But due to the regenerator, - craving - which had a partiality for the arising aspect, the fact of cessation was not seen. As it is said in Dvayatānupassanā Sutta of the Sutta Nipāta:

'Ye ca rūpūpagā sattā
Ye ca arūpaṭṭhāyino
Nirodhaṁ appajānantā
Āgantāro punabbhavaṁ'

'Those beings who approach realms of form 
and those that are in formless realms, 
not understanding well the fact of cessation, 
come again and again to existence.' 

What is meant is that impelled by craving, beings are always keen on ever- new arisings to the neglect of the fact of cessation. As soon as a thing breaks up, craving prompts: "Don't worry about this thing that is lost. Take hold of that thing out there." This renewing process goes on so rapidly in the mind, that the process of mental-noting is something like a battle with Māra. One has to speed up the process of mental-noting in such a way as to eliminate the possibilities of attachment and clinging. In fact, it would be at a totally unexpected moment that the releasing insight breaks forth. But once that insight dawns, one understands for the first time the delusion one has been in, all this time. Consciousness arises dependent on conditions. There is no 'I' in it. This way, one sees the law of Paṭiccasamuppāda with the help of the six sense-bases. This is the significance of the phrase: 'Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṁ' quoted above.

Eye-consciousness arises dependent on eye and forms. And likewise, mind- consciousness arises dependent on mind and mind-objects. So long as this fact is not seen, there is a tendency to imagine three things in this situation - 'tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso', 'the concurrence of the three is contact.' This concurrence or the going-together is actually a going-together of the delusion of the three. So this insight may be called the understanding of contact or the understanding of consciousness or the understanding of perception.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:02 pm
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi Alex,

That is all that needs stating.

Sn 3.12 Dvayatānupassanā Sutta:
Entrenched in name and form, 
They conceive that “This is true.”

In whatever way (worldlings) conceive it,
It turns out other than that.
For that is what is false about it.
Whatever is transitory certainly has a false nature.

But nibbāna does not have a false nature.
That the noble ones truly know.
Through fully comprehending the truth,
They are without hunger, quenched.

Ud 3.10 (Ud 32) Loka Sutta:
This anguished world, 
Afflicted by contact,
Speaks of a disease as self.
By whatever terms it conceives of (anything),
It turns out other than that.
Although becoming otherwise, the world is held by existence,
Afflicted by existence, yet delights in that very existence.
Where there is delight, there is fear.
What it fears is unsatisfactory.
This holy life is lived for the abandoning of that existence.

Whatever ascetics or brahmans say that emancipation from existence is by means of existence, all of them are not liberated from existence, I say.

And whatever ascetics or brahmans say that escape from existence is by means of non-existence, all of them have not escaped from existence, I say.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:53 pm
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi 5heaps,

Where are "particles" ever mentioned in the Pāḷi suttas? And even more to the point: What bearing does speculating about the existence of particles have on liberation?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:03 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi Alex,

There is a world of difference between saying "It is" (atthi as found in SN 22.94) and maintaining that "It has true, inherent existence" (sabhāvasiddhi).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:58 am
Title: Re: Tathata/Tathagata misinterpretation Vs Mahayana Nirvana?
Content:
Indeed. Goldstein's book One Dharma offers some insights from a seasoned teacher who's practiced on both sides of the fence.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:37 pm
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
And some people find the groundlessness right here, right now, threatening.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:31 pm
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
I'm not arguing for the existence or non-existence of anything. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:26 pm
Title: Re: Tathata/Tathagata misinterpretation Vs Mahayana Nirvana?
Content:
There is never any need to fight. And for the record, both historically as well as presently there have been and are thera-s who are also mahāyānika-s.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:53 pm
Title: Re: Tathata/Tathagata misinterpretation Vs Mahayana Nirvana?
Content:
Hi Starter,

It seems that you don't have a very good understanding of Mahāyāna, but that's fine. As for the Pāḷi dhamma, craving (taṇhā) is abandoned and ceases wherever there is anything endearing and alluring in terms of the world: the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind, forms, sounds, odors, flavors, tactual objects, mental phenomena, etc. This cessation of craving is also the cessation of unsatisfactoriness (dukkhanirodha). That is, it is nibbāna. For example, DN 22:
"And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading &amp; cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, &amp; letting go of that very craving.

"And where, when being abandoned, is this craving abandoned? And where, when ceasing, does it cease? Whatever is endearing &amp; alluring in terms of the world: that is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"And what is endearing &amp; alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing &amp; alluring in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas is endearing &amp; alluring in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

"This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress."

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:25 pm
Title: Re: Questions about the first jhana
Content:
All of the mental factors of any jhāna occur concurrently (i.e. sahajāta). These mental factors don't pass away as long as one remains in that particular jhāna. This doesn't mean that these mental factors are not subject to alteration while persisting (ṭhitassa aññathatta). Alteration while persisting is common to all fabrications (saṅkhāra-s).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:29 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
The passages cited clearly state that an arahant cannot be measured or classified in terms of the five aggregates. An arahant's consciousness cannot be traced whilst alive. Thus it is quite pointless and completely counterproductive to hold views regarding the existence or non-existence of said consciousness post-mortem. MN 72:
The position that 'after death a Tathagata exists' is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, &amp; fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.

The position that 'after death a Tathagata does not exist' is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, &amp; fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.

The position that 'after death a Tathagata both exists &amp; does not exist' is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, &amp; fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.

The position that 'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist' is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, &amp; fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:07 pm
Title: Re: Questions about the first jhana
Content:
Hi Individual &amp; all,

These teachings by Ven. Gunaratana may also be helpful.

What is samatha-vipassanā? (Pt 1):

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What is samatha-vipassanā? (Pt 2):

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Why do some teachers warn against practicing jhāna-s?

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What are the benefits of practicing jhāna-s? (Pt 1):

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What are the benefits of practicing jhāna-s? (Pt 2):

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All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:06 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi Alex &amp; all,

An arahant cannot be measured or classified in terms of the five aggregates. For example, SN 22.36: Bhikkhu Sutta:
f one doesn’t stay obsessed with form, lord, that’s not what one is measured (anumīyati) by. Whatever one isn’t measured by, that’s not how one is classified (saṅkha).

If one doesn’t stay obsessed with feeling... apperception... fabrications...

If one doesn’t stay obsessed with consciousness, that’s not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn’t measured by, that’s not how one is classified.


MN 72: Aggivaccha Sutta:
Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form (rūpasaṅkhayavimutto), Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom (gambhīro, appameyyo, duppariyogāḷho), like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does &amp; does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.

Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...

Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness (viññāṇasaṅkhayavimutto), Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom (gambhīro, appameyyo, duppariyogāḷho), like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does &amp; does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.


MN 22: Alagaddūpama Sutta:
Monks, when the gods with Indra, with Brahmā and with Pajāpati seek a monk who is thus liberated in mind, they do not find anything of which they could say: “The tathāgata’s consciousness is dependent (nissita) on this.” Why? A tathāgata, I declare, is untraceable (ananuvejja) here and now (diṭṭheva).


Dhammapada, v. 93:
Effluents ended, independent of nutriment, their pasture – emptiness and freedom without sign: their trail, like that of birds through space, can’t be traced.


SN 35.188 (CDB 35.229): Dutiyasamudda Sutta:
For whomever passion, aggression, and ignorance have faded away– 
He has crossed over this ocean which is hard to cross
With its dangerous sharks, demons, and waves.

He has overcome attachment, conquered death, and is without acquisitions; 
Has abandoned suffering, for the sake of no further existence. 
“Gone out,” he cannot be measured (na pamāṇameti),
I say that he has bewildered the king of death.


In a number of sutta-s (e.g. S iv 119, S iv 186, S iv 189, S iv 199, &amp; M i 270) an arahant’s mind is designated as a “measureless mind” (appamāṇacetasa → being free from any sort of measuring → pamāṇa). Elsewhere it is designated as “unestablished consciousness” (appatiṭṭha viññāṇa).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:16 pm
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi Gabe &amp; Beeblebrox,

The English talks are by Ven. Ñāṇananda. And I think he did most, if not all, of the translation of the Sermons from Sinhala into English himself as well.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:08 am
Title: Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?
Content:
Hi Sylvester &amp; all,

Thanks for posting the link to the interview. Would you (or anyone else) happen to know of the status of the English versions of Nibbāna Sermons 26-33? The English versions of Sermons 1-25 have been available online for a few years now, but after #25 appeared on Beyond the Net they seem to have stopped....

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:02 am
Title: Re: Bad resources
Content:
Hi V,

I'm not denying you your opinion or your right of expression. I just don't think that in this case your opinion is all that accurate. That's my opinion. And the basis for my opinion is this: After Trungpa's death Ani Pema worked for many years to try to build up a practical foundation of personal responsibility in a pretty chaotic community. It was a thankless situation to put it mildly. Other people may very well have thrown their hands in the air and walked away from the whole thing. She didn't. And in time other people began to benefit from what she herself had learned along the way. Her message isn't perfect. Fortunately it doesn't have to be. In fact, a big part of her teaching has been about learning to face the "imperfections" of this messy thing we call our life. And face them with an open heart and a courageous mind -- not as a naïve abstraction -- but as a real, living, human heart and mind. This is where development happens. Right here. There's really no other way.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:41 am
Title: Re: Bad resources
Content:
Whatever Trungpa Rinpoche may or may not have done is his responsibility. It's presumptuous to say that Ani Pema "can barely tell the difference between right and wrong." 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:28 pm
Title: Re: Bad resources
Content:
Hi V, 

Maybe Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna aren't your cup of tea, and that's fine, but there's simply no good reason to call someone down -- especially an ordained monastic -- whom you obviously know nothing about. Ven. Chödrön is a strong, clear minded, articulate bhikṣuṇī.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:02 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Shonin.

And thanks to everyone else who replied. There were many, many thoughtful posts (too many names to mention each member individually).

 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:54 pm
Title: Re: "Monks!"
Content:
Chan belly shouts.


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:36 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
I'd add that labels are always inadequate and incomplete with regard to lived experience.... Poets sometimes come close to capturing meaning, even in translation:
She seems to hide all looks that have ever fallen
into her, so that, like an audience,
she can look them over, menacing and sullen,
and curl to sleep with them. But all at once

as if awakened, she turns her face to yours;
and with a shock, you see yourself, tiny,
inside the golden amber of her eyeballs
suspended, like a prehistoric fly.

--from "Black Cat" by Rainer Maria Rilke

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:53 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi Legolas,

I'd suggest that it's really just a question of the designation (i.e. labeling) of what is being experienced. 

Anyway, DN 2 states:
Tassime pañca nīvaraṇe pahīne attani samanupassato pāmojjaṃ jāyati, pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.

Seeing that the five hindrances have been abandoned within him, gladness is born. Gladdened, joy is born. With a joyful mind, his body becomes tranquil. His body tranquil, he experiences pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.

This implies that pīti is a heightened mental quality related to and arising from gladness (pāmojja). With the onset of pīti the body becomes tranquil (kāyo passambhati), and when the body is tranquil one experiences pleasure (passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti).

And SN 47.10:
Tenānanda, bhikkhunā kismiñcideva pasādanīye nimitte cittaṃ paṇidahitabbaṃ. Tassa kismiñcideva pasādanīye nimitte cittaṃ paṇidahato pāmojjaṃ jāyati. Pamuditassa pīti jāyati.

Then Ānanda, the monk should direct his mind to some inspiring representation. When he directs his mind to some inspiring representation, gladness is born. Gladdened, joy is born.

Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati. Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedayati. Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. So iti paṭisañcikkhati – ‘yassa khvāhaṃ atthāya cittaṃ paṇidahiṃ, so me attho abhinipphanno. Handa, dāni paṭisaṃharāmī’ti. So paṭisaṃharati ceva na ca vitakketi na ca vicāreti. ‘Avitakkomhi avicāro, ajjhattaṃ satimā sukhamasmī’ti pajānāti.’

With a joyful mind, his body becomes tranquil. His body tranquil, he experiences pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated. He reflects thus: ‘The purpose for which I directed my mind has been achieved. Let me now withdraw it.’ So he withdraws his mind and does not think or evaluate. He understands: ‘Without directed thought and evaluation, internally mindful, I am [experiencing] pleasure.’

Also, the Paṭisambhidāmagga (and the Dhammasaṅgaṇī) offers the following register of near-synonyms and synonyms for pīti: gladness (pāmojja), delight (āmodanā), joyfulness (pamodanā), shining mirth (bhāsa pabhāsa), felicity (vitti), elation (odagya), satisfaction (attamantā), and mental uplift (cittassa).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:03 am
Title: Re: Pali Term: Nibbedha-bhāgiyā
Content:
Another excellent post.

 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:02 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Okay. I agree completely. Which is why I mentioned earlier in this post that translating pīti solely as "rapture" isn't a very helpful translation.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:33 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
I've never said that right mindfulness is the same as right concentration. Neither has anyone else here as far as I can see. Dmytro, for example, specifically referenced the Vimuttimagga in what he said. It seems to me that you are raising a non-issue. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:23 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
I don't see anything in the second tetrad of the sutta instructions which would restrict these trainings to only those who have attained jhāna. With practice it's possible in formal sitting meditation to discern some degree of both joy (pīti) and pleasure (sukha) arising together with any pleasurable skillful mind (cf. Dhammasaṅgaṇī Cittuppādakaṇḍa). And with the later commentarial designation of access concentration there will certainly be joy and pleasure present therein. 

I'm basing what I've just said on a full spectrum developmental model where practitioners are encouraged to attend and reflect in terms of dynamic conditioned processes, i.e. how to generate optimal causes and conditions for skillful processes to be developed and sustained and unskillful processes to be reduced and eventually abandoned. It's still a hierarchic model, but a dynamic one which confronts and challenges a practitioner's habitual referencing in terms of "things" and rigid, independent levels of mental development.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:01 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi Retro,

Awakening, just like the full development of ānāpānassati in the second and third tetrads, requires both samatha and vipassanā conjoined as "one taste" (cf. Paṭisambhidāmagga Ānāpānassatikathā). This is also designated in terms of the full development of both the training of heightened mind and heightened discernment.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:10 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
I agree. When I refer to "object" in the second approach above I mean "support-object" which is my current working translation of ārammaṇa. With jhāna the ārammaṇa is indeed one totality (kasiṇa) being attended to.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:40 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi Ben,

I agree. This accords with the second and third approaches which I outlined previously:
(ii) attention training where one attends to a single object and thereby calms and unifies all mental factors to the point where, as Leigh Brasington explains, “It is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own.”

(iii) attention training where one attends to whatever occurs in the present moment (either with the aid of a support object such as abdominal movement, or choiceless awareness without the aid of a support object).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:24 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
The canon says so. Ānāpānassati gives rise to ānāpānassatisamādhi. Closely attending to ānāpānassatisamādhi gives rise to the four jhānas. SN 54.8 Padīpopama Sutta:
Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful phenomena, enter and remain in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation enter and remain in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of concentration,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the fading away of joy, remain equanimous, mindful and fully aware, and experience pleasure with the body; may I enter and remain in the third jhāna of which the noble ones say, ‘Equanimous and mindful, he abides pleasantly,’” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the earlier passing away of happiness and unhappiness, enter and remain in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure or pain, and includes the purity of equanimity and mindfulness,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.
 

Nothing to get hung up on Tilt.


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:16 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
That's already been addressed in this reply and this reply.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:00 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Vimuttimagga Chapter on Mindfulness of Breathing:
Of these sixteen [steps of ānāpānassati], the first twelve fulfill samatha and vipassanā, and are discerned as impermanence. The last four fulfill only vipassanā. Thus should samatha and vipassanā be understood....

And again, practice means attaining to a state (of jhāna) through mindfulness of breathing. This is practice. Through this mind­fulness of breathing, one attains to the state which is with initial application of thought. That is the state which is with initial and sustained application of thought, and the state of sustained application of thought. The experiencing of joy is the state of the second jhāna. The experiencing of pleasure is the state of the third jhāna. The experien­cing of the mind is the state of the fourth jhāna.

Thus you're not disproving anything.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:46 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
And ānāpānassati also gives rise to ānāpānassatisamādhi. SN 54.8 Padīpopama Sutta:
Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful phenomena, enter and remain in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation enter and remain in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of concentration,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the fading away of joy, remain equanimous, mindful and fully aware, and experience pleasure with the body; may I enter and remain in the third jhāna of which the noble ones say, ‘Equanimous and mindful, he abides pleasantly,’” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

Therefore, monks, if a monk wishes, “May I, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the earlier passing away of happiness and unhappiness, enter and remain in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure or pain, and includes the purity of equanimity and mindfulness,” this same concentration through mindfulness of breathing should be closely attended to.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:40 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi Sobeh,

Of course sammāsati is not the same as sammāsamādhi. Sammāsati is the cause for sammāsamādhi to occur (MN 44). The commentary adds that it is the requisite condition. This fully accords with what Dmytro was indicating above.

It’s worth noting just how closely related mindfulness of the body (kāyānupassanā, kāyagatāsati) and the mental factors of mindfulness and full awareness (sati and sampajañña) are to the development of the four jhānas. This can be seen from the following sutta excerpts:
You should train yourself thus: ‘I will remain focused on the body in &amp; of itself — ardent, alert, &amp; mindful — putting aside greed &amp; distress with reference to the world.’ That's how you should train yourself. When you have developed this concentration in this way, you should develop this concentration with directed thought &amp; evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought &amp; a modicum of evaluation, you should develop it with no directed thought &amp; no evaluation, you should develop it accompanied by rapture... not accompanied by rapture... endowed with a sense of enjoyment; you should develop it endowed with equanimity. [AN 8.63]

Monks, those monks who are trainees, who have not attained their mind’s ideal, who dwell aspiring for the unsurpassed security from bondage – they too dwell contemplating the body in the body, ardent, alert, unified, with limpid mind, concentrated, with one-pointed mind, in order to fully understand the body as it really is. [SN 47.4]

When one thing is practiced &amp; pursued, the body is calmed (kāya passambhati), the mind is calmed (citta passambhati), thinking &amp; evaluating are stilled (vitakkavicārā vūpasama), and all qualities on the side of clear knowing go to the culmination of their development. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body (kāyagatāsati). [AN 1.227]

As he remains thus focused on the body in &amp; of itself, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that fact.... As a result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here &amp; now, together with mindfulness &amp; alertness (satisampajañña). [SN 47.8]

This is just a partial survey. Many more examples could be provided.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:54 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi Ian &amp; all,

Leigh's teachings are very good and certainly experiential, and your above descriptions of pīti and sukha are excellent too. But... I so much dislike having to ever add a but after a compliment. It's often understood as a negation of what was just said prior to the but. And I don't want to negate your description or Leigh's teachings at all. Nevertheless... there's another word like but.... 

Okay, continuing on: From a purely technical perspective, with reference to the earliest commentaries the two terms are actually understood to be the other way around. Pīti is defined as a mental quality of joy or enthusiasm or delight, etc., and sukha, in the context of jhāna is defined as bodily pleasure.

Now this is all kinda academic, I know, because both pīti and sukha are formless mental dhammas. But that is how these phenomena are understood in the traditional texts. This doesn't mean that Leigh is wrong at all, because we all have to map our own inner mental terrain. And these two phenomena are related mental aspects of that terrain.

It reminds me of when I was first learning to play guitar as a kid. I learned a few chords from a local guitar teacher and then my uncle, who was a very good country music guitarist and singer, wanted me to show him what I'd learned. So I got my guitar and played him some chords sequences and when I got to the three main chords in the key of C major, and played them, I was having a bit of a problem playing the F chord (which is a bar chord on guitar). And so when he went to show me an easier way to finger the F chord (as a partial bar instead of a full bar) he called it "C." And I said, "No that's F." And he said, "Oh yeah, it's F, right." Then he explained to me that because he learned to play solely by ear he had somehow learned to call the C chord F and the F chord C. Now he's an excellent musician who's entertained countless numbers of people for over half a century, and not knowing the proper technical names of these two chords never diminished his skill as a musician or the enjoyment of the audiences he's played for. 

So it's always a good reminder, that while we have the traditional maps charting our inner mental terrain -- those maps are not the same as the terrain itself. They are descriptions on paper of how to learn to skillfully navigate and develop our inner mental terrain. But they are just that, nothing less, nothing more.

Anyway, there's my but....  

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:31 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi Sobeh,

It's nothing to get hung up on.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:07 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi Retro &amp; all,

Yeah, I sometimes forget that many people have busy lives with work and family and various activities that need to be attended to. Being a good spouse, a good parent, a good employee, a good supervisor, a good citizen and so on, all obviously require attention, and dhamma has to be integrated into all of those aspects of our lives for it to have any meaningful effect.

But is it possible to practice, say, steps 1 to 4, then 5, and 13? I think that's possible.

Or alternatively, as I've reflected upon the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ānāpānassatikathā, I've come to see that although the steps are set out sequentially in the sutta, it's also possible to practice two or more steps concurrently at the same time. For example, once step three (whole body) is established, that whole body awareness can serve as the basis and support for the remaining steps to be experienced along with that whole body awareness. 

And so when step four is being practiced, is it possible to begin just noticing if there is any concomitant gladness arising? Is the mind happy? Is there enthusiasm in my practice right now? These are all either similar to pīti or synonyms for pīti. There is a progression of the practice here, but it's not like we're leaving step three or four behind us when we practice step five or six or thirteen.

Again, we all have to work with the practice gently, and from time to time make small, skillful adjustments to find out if these steps can open up further appreciation and understanding of our inner mental terrain. But not by overexerting. It's a question of appropriate balance which is unique to each of us. Striving too forcefully isn't going to create the optimal causes and conditions for the path to develop, nor is blankly spacing out. We each have to find that balance of calm and insight that works for us and allows the practice to open up and unfold. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:26 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Good stuff:
"Simply taking notice of the skillful happiness that the dhamma provides can itself be a tool, and I mention it because it seems to be a very efficient one." ― Kenshou

That right there is quote-worthy!


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:06 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
I think it's possible that some people don't spend more time on the fifth step because they may not think that they've "attained jhāna" or can "experience rapture." But we don't necessarily have to have "attained" anything in order to experience pīti. In this case, the translation of pīti as rapture probably doesn't help. What the heck is rapture?... 

But pīti doesn't just mean rapture. It's the mental joy which is present whenever we experience any skillful feeling of pleasure or well-being. And so we don't have to be drenched in bliss in order to practice the fifth step of mindful breathing. If we are sitting in meditation and our body is relaxed and we are feeling at ease and our mind is clear and aware, we can certainly begin to investigate what pīti means in that situation: Can we recognize if the mind is happy? Can there be some degree of mental joy when we sit relaxed and breathe mindfully? 

This is the important affective quality of the path which is to be developed and used to aid us in letting go; not always searching for something outside of ourselves for fulfillment. I think that we all need to empower ourselves and give ourselves permission to sit and just enjoy the very simple act of breathing mindfully.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:40 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi V &amp; all,

I think that we each have to identify and map our mental terrain based on our own first hand investigation and experience. If we can take the time to attend to our mind when we're sitting with our body somewhat relaxed, mindfully breathing, we can begin to investigate how our mind works: Can I differentiate between a thought and the recognition (saññā) of a thought? This is a good start. Right here we can begin to see that there's no separate observer independent of that simple recognition of the thought. Can I reflect upon the drawbacks of discursive thinking? Can I begin to just release thoughts as they arise? If I just release my indulgence with thinking can I experience a gap between the end of one thought and the arising of another?

It doesn't really matter if our mind settles and relaxes when we investigate how it works, or if we can experience much of a gap between thoughts, or if the mind just continues to chatter on. The important thing is that we really want to learn how our mind works. And one thing that can be pretty obvious right away is that we aren't really in full control of our mind. The mind operates according to causes and conditions. There's no one running the show. Seeing this we can learn to create the suitable causes and conditions which allow us to investigate our mind again and again. We can investigate how our body and our breath affect the movements of the mind, and so on. 

No one can do this inner work for us. We each have to take the time to begin to investigate our inner mental terrain. It can be a rewarding experience which begins to yield some insights into how the mind works. And I think that this was part of the Buddha's genius. He was interested in how things work. He realized that understanding how the mind works is essential if we are going to untangle the tangle that we may currently find ourselves in.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:24 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi all,

I would like to thank the DW members for the PMs and e-mails yesterday. 

And thanks Chris, for posting the excerpt from Ven. Bodhi and the link.

Also thanks go out to Retro and Vepacitta for suggesting that it would be good to discuss some of the practical aspects of the teachings. There is a traditional standard of Buddhist etiquette -- common to all Buddhist traditions -- of not publicly discussing in detail what are considered to be personal matters regarding practice better kept between one's teacher and oneself. This traditional etiquette is actually grounded in quite pragmatic concerns. Nevertheless, it may be helpful to have a more open discussion about sitting practice. I look forward to reading all replies, and will try to share what I've found helpful (and also not so helpful) for my own practice over the years.

It might be worth mentioning again that there are basically three approaches to mental development in the context of meditation:
(i) attention training where one absorbs into a single object and thereby stills all mental factors to the point where, as Ajahn Brahmavamso explains, “Consciousness is so focused on the one thing that the faculty of comprehension is suspended … there is no comprehension of what is going on.”

(ii) attention training where one attends to a single object and thereby calms and unifies all mental factors to the point where, as Leigh Brasington explains, “It is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own.”

(iii) attention training where one attends to whatever occurs in the present moment (either with the aid of a support object such as abdominal movement, or choiceless awareness without the aid of a support object).

With this in mind, it's really a matter of what each of us has tried and found helpful for our own practice. All three of these approaches can be developed to the point of attaining the resultant state of that approach if one has the time and commitment to follow their chosen path of practice in a sustained, dedicated way.

It is only with the first of these three approaches that the five senses must necessarily be shut down and ceased for that resultant state to be entered and sustained. However, the lack of comprehension in this state makes it impossible for vipassanā to occur while abiding therein.

The resultant state of the second approach allows for the mind to be internally unified while still fully comprehending the mental factors present. Thus vipassanā can be fully present and functional while abiding therein. I consider the resultant meditative state of this second approach to represent an accurate assessment of jhāna as it's presented in the suttas. Other people consider the resultant state of the first approach to be necessary. It's not my intention to debate this issue here. Obviously, everyone is free to make up their own mind regarding what they feel is necessary for their practice.

The third approach can eventually lead to the resultant state of the second approach, but it isn’t a direct pathway to that state of mental unification. The level of concentration employed in this third approach is often designated as "momentary concentration." This approach can be applied as somewhat of a conjoined calm (samatha) and vipassanā method. By using the instruction to follow the movement of the abdomen as one breathes and to come back to that as the support object after any distractions, this approach enables many practitioners to develop deep samatha in the course of their practice. Thus this approach can certainly lead to jhāna. This is entirely in keeping with what is outlined in the suttas.

I look forward to hearing what other members have to contribute to this discussion.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:00 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
I don't really care what you or anyone else believes Tilt. Believe whatever you want. It isn't my concern, nor should it be. As I tried to outline on another thread, we can remove all the potentially loaded terms (although they need not be considered loaded at all) and recognize that there are basically three approaches to mental development in the context of meditation:
(i) attention training where one absorbs into a single object and thereby stills all mental factors to the point where, as Ajahn Brahmavamso explains, “Consciousness is so focused on the one thing that the faculty of comprehension is suspended … there is no comprehension of what is going on.”

(ii) attention training where one attends to a single object and thereby calms and unifies all mental factors to the point where, as Leigh Brasington explains, “It is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own.”

(iii) attention training where one attends to whatever occurs in the present moment (either with the aid of a support object such as abdominal movement, or choiceless awareness without the aid of a support object).

Obviously, everyone is free to practice whichever approach they deem helpful. It should really be more about skillfully developing one's own practice than about dividing into cliques like a bunch of adolescents. But human beings have a great penchant for dividing into cliques. Hence all the Buddhist "vādas" and "yānas" which have emerged over the past 2400 years.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:48 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
No -- you're the one who told me I had somehow taken this thread off topic.


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:39 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
Oh please. One only need to survey the literature from Burma to see that there was plenty of debate over this vipassanā issue during the course of the past 100 years. And in the recent past I seem to recall some quite lengthy threads positioning one Burmese vipassanā camp against one Thai vipassanā camp.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:12 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
This: "And for me jhana practice, while interesting, was more of a distraction. Certainly not an absolute necessity for practice or awakening, unless one is talking about something such as the vipassana jhanas, but then we are still within the framework of vipassana."

There is really no longer any need to debate what is taught as the gradual path of training in the suttas. It's much like the climate change issue though, the global warming deniers continue presenting the illusion of a debate when in point of fact that debate is long over.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:02 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
No worries Legolas, after being called a "jhana-wallah" by Tilt I was forcibly silenced for somehow taking this thread, which was supposed to be about jhana, off topic. Good to see that Tilt deems fit to designate everyone's practice marginal but his own.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:43 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
I'm more than happy to let every individual follow whatever meditation instructions they find helpful and have faith in. In fact, I think it's outstanding whenever anyone decides to take up any sitting practice. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:37 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Yep, it's an open forum. And Sylvester has given me his 2 cents on numerous occasions. I have already replied in detail to each of his opinions in turn, giving him far more time than should have ever been required. Especially since during the course of those conversations his agenda became quite obvious. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:22 pm
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
I tried to make it as explicit as language would allow in the OP that I was not starting this thread to argue with anybody:
I’m well aware that this subject matter may not be of interest to some people. It’s posted here for those who are interested. For anyone who doesn’t find the contents of this thread informative or helpful, I respectfully and wholeheartedly agree that they would be better served to follow whatever interpretation of the dhammavinaya that they have faith in and find helpful. It runs counter to the intent of the dhamma for anyone who isn’t fully awakened to maintain definite conclusions that “Only this is true; anything else is worthless” (MN 95).

I read all sorts of threads and posts on DW that I don't necessarily agree with. But I try my best not to reply to threads unless I feel that I have something constructive to add to the discussion. It would be senseless for me or anyone else to chime in on a thread discussing the Burmese vipassanā method, for example, and derail the conversation by insisting that the Burmese vipassanā method is somehow wrong (which I don't believe to be the case BTW).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:53 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
That's somewhat accurate. I'm here at DW to share information, not debate everyone who disagrees with me. As for Sylvester, I played quite nice for a number of weeks on that previous thread. And I didn't start that previous thread. In fact I had never posted or replied to anything on DW until that thread was posted and someone told me that it was here. And I never sought out Sylvester's 2 cents. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:57 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
And I have already suggested that you, good man, are grasping the wrong end of the snake.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:54 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
I've already addressed your feeble hermeneutic strategy ad nauseum. I don't play games -- word games or any other -- as a rule. And I've already given your interpretations more time than they warrant without even going into your interpretation of terms such as vitakka, etc..

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:32 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
I think you failed to comprehend this post Sylvester.


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:29 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
The reality is that in our previous conversations you've repeatedly insisted that the discourses in question do not mean what they say. But there is nothing esoteric about these discourses. They aren't employing some sort of twilight language which relies on a hidden code to draw out some meaning obscured by the terminology being used. This is why the Buddha is recorded as stating that the discourses should be taught using the language of the people being addressed. They don’t require a highly specialized technical vocabulary. Nor do they require a priestly or scholarly elite to decode obscured meanings. Your entire argument throughout has amounted to nothing more than an attempt to draw out conclusions to support your preconceived thesis regarding feeling as it pertains to jhāna. Not only does your hermeneutic have little to recommend for it – I would suggest that you’re grasping the wrong end of the snake. And for what purpose? In support of an interpretation of jhāna which refuses to accept the explicit teachings of a vast number of discourses, as well as the majority of early ābhidhammika commentaries? An interpretation of mental factors in the context of jhāna which refuses to survey and acknowledge the full register of how these terms are designated, defined, and differentiated throughout the canon?

During our entire conversation you never once produced a single source from the discourses to support your interpretation of SN 36.6 Salla Sutta that bodily feeling as it is used in this sutta is meant to include feeling born of mind contact. In fact, your entire premise in this case is just one example of your stretching the meaning of two terms to the point where there is no meaningful differentiation between them. Moreover, in your zeal to sustain your thesis your interpretation fails to recognize the soteriological import of this discourse: the distinction between how a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka) experiences bodily pain in comparison to a common person.

Piya Tan would be well advised to study MN 111 more closely, as well as the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ānāpānassatikathā in order to understand that the mental factors mentioned in MN 111 are fully accounted for as being present and known through the mental factor of vipassanā while one is correctly abiding in jhāna as the proper training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā).

There are basically three approaches to mental development in the context of meditation: 
(i) attention training where one absorbs into a single object and thereby stills all mental factors to the point where, as Ajahn Brahmavamso explains, “Consciousness is so focused on the one thing that the faculty of comprehension is suspended … there is no comprehension of what is going on.”

(ii) attention training where one attends to a single object and thereby calms and unifies all mental factors to the point where, as Leigh Brasington explains, “It is possible to examine the experience because the state is so stable and self sustaining on its own.”

(iii) attention training where one attends to whatever occurs in the present moment (either with the aid of a support object such as abdominal movement, or choiceless awareness without the aid of a support object).

It is only in the first of these three approaches that the five senses must necessarily be shut down and ceased for that resultant state to be entered and sustained. However, the lack of comprehension in this state makes it impossible for vipassanā to occur while abiding therein.

The resultant state of the second approach allows for the mind to be internally unified while still fully comprehending the mental factors present. Thus vipassanā can be fully present and functional while abiding therein. Ajahn Chah describes the resultant state of this second approach as follows:
In appana samadhi the mind calms down and is stilled to a level where it is at its most subtle and skilful. Even if you experience sense impingement from the outside, such as sounds and physical sensations, it remains external and is unable to disturb the mind. You might hear a sound, but it won't distract your concentration. There is the hearing of the sound, but the experience is as if you don't hear anything. There is awareness of the impingement but it's as if you are not aware. This is because you let go. The mind lets go automatically. Concentration is so deep and firm that you let go of attachment to sense impingement quite naturally. The mind can absorb into this state for long periods. Having stayed inside for an appropriate amount of time, it then withdraws.
Ajahn Thanissaro describes what Ajahn Fuang considered to be wrong concentration as follows:
The best state of concentration for the sake of developing all-around insight is one that encompasses a whole-body awareness. There were two exceptions to Ajaan Fuang's usual practice of not identifying the state you had attained in your practice, and both involved states of wrong concentration. The first was the state that comes when the breath gets so comfortable that your focus drifts from the breath to the sense of comfort itself, your mindfulness begins to blur, and your sense of the body and your surroundings gets lost in a pleasant haze. When you emerge, you find it hard to identify where exactly you were focused. Ajaan Fuang called this moha-samadhi, or delusion-concentration. 

The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time. 

After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation. 

In both these states of wrong concentration, the limited range of awareness was what made them wrong. If whole areas of your awareness are blocked off, how can you gain all-around insight? And as I've noticed in years since, people adept at blotting out large areas of awareness through powerful one-pointedness also tend to be psychologically adept at dissociation and denial. This is why Ajaan Fuang, following Ajaan Lee, taught a form of breath meditation that aimed at an all-around awareness of the breath energy throughout the body, playing with it to gain a sense of ease, and then calming it so that it wouldn't interfere with a clear vision of the subtle movements of the mind. This all-around awareness helped to eliminate the blind spots where ignorance likes to lurk.

The third of the three approaches outlined above can eventually lead to the resultant state of the second approach, but it isn’t a direct pathway to that state of mental unification.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:20 am
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
This isn't 19th century SE Asia. There is no excuse for failing to acknowledge all of the relevant source materials that we presently have available.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:30 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
I can see nothing in Ian's posts which would disagree with the presentation of jhāna in the Vimuttimagga. The Vimuttimagga is older than the Visuddhimagga. By all accounts the Vimuttimagga was well known both in Sri Lanka and India. The interpretation of jhāna presented in the Vimuttimagga is neither "unusual" nor "modern." Therefore yours and Kester's rhetoric about an "unusual, modern interpretation" of jhāna is historically inaccurate and quite tired -- it really should be put to bed.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:46 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Yes it is okay. Glad we can agree on that. Now you can continue with your trivial wordplay....

All the best with that,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:40 am
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:



Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:25 am
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
My opinions on the Vism. are quite irrelevant to the topic at hand. But for the record, one of my first introductions to Theravāda was the Vism. IMO every serious practitioner should read it.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:06 am
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
Not likely.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:41 am
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
Sure. Nevertheless, I was referring to the re-invigoration and dissemination of the Pāḷi textual tradition beyond the Burmese scholar monks. This happened in the 19th century initially as a reaction to colonial interference, and continued well into the period where the first Europeans were showing interest in the Pāḷi texts. The Pāḷi texts -- including the Vism. -- were actively printed and disseminated throughout parts of SE Asia during this time. 

And from a different angle the 19th century Thai Thammayut movement was in part informed by the King's interest in Western style textual criticism. He also re-invigorated interest in the Pāḷi Canon in Thailand which later made its way into Cambodia.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:54 am
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:



Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:59 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi Sylvester,

Piya Tan is a fan of Ajahn Brahm's "ambulance jhāna." As such, his presentation doesn't take into consideration a sufficient survey of Pāḷi source materials which comment upon and clarify the meanings of terms. The so-called "technical analysis" in his survey is quite unconvincing -- amounting to nothing more than wordplay. His appeal to personal experience is also without merit. Numerous meditators have experienced the absorptive states Ajahn Brahm teaches as "jhāna," complete with light nimittas etc., etc. Moreover, if I remember correctly Ajahn Brahm has a few other idiosyncratic interpretations of the dhamma, for example, that nibbāna is equivalent to the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling.

That said, anyone who has confidence in Ajahn Brahm's teaching style should certainly follow his instructions and find out for themselves if it's helpful. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:20 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Well, we are fortunate enough to have the suttas themselves. Here are some other resources which I've found useful (some practical, a few regarding textual analysis):

The Experience of Samādhi: An In-depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation by Richard Shankman. He contrasts the teaching methods of a diverse number of contemporary teachers with what is presented in the suttas.

Instruction for Entering Jhana by Leigh Brasington.

The Jhanas in Theravadan Buddhist Meditation by Leigh Brasington.

Jhanas at the Forest Refuge by Leigh Brasington.

Lists of things to do that are helpful for entering the Jhanas by Leigh Brasington.

The Path of Concentration &amp; Mindfulness by Ajahn Ṭhānissaro.

Jhana Not by the Numbers by Ajahn Ṭhānissaro.

Clarification On Feelings In Buddhist Dhyāna/Jhāna Meditation by Tse-fu Kuan.

The Two Traditions of Meditation In Ancient India by Johannes Bronkhorst.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:44 am
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
BTW, I quite liked the Śiva avatar (if it was Śiva) that you were sporting the other day.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:47 am
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
Hi Sobeh,

Here is one investigation of the textual subject matter: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:43 am
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
The majority of the Pāḷi Canon was constructed in India.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:37 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
The Formless Attainments: Not Experiencing the Five Sensory Spheres (Āyatanas)

MN 43 Mahāvedalla Sutta and AN 9.37 Ānanda Sutta state that it is only when abiding in the fully purified formless attainments that the mind is isolated from the five sense faculties and doesn’t experience any of the five external sensory spheres.

Both discourses speak directly in terms of the faculties (indriyas) and sense spheres (āyatanas). AN 9.37 is very explicit. Here Venerable Ānanda states that when not experiencing the form, sound, odor, flavor, and tactual object āyatanas, one can be percipient of one of the three formless apperception attainments, or aññāphala samādhi.

If it were the case that one cannot experience any of these āyatanas while abiding in the four jhānas, then this discourse — which specifically lists meditative states in this regard — would have included the four jhānas along with the three formless apperception attainments and aññāphala samādhi.

Add to this that AN 5.113 Sammāsamādhi Sutta states that one has to be able to tolerate sensory phenomena in order to both enter and remain in right concentration. There is no right concentration without this tolerance:
A monk endowed with these five qualities is not capable of entering and remaining in right concentration. Which five? He cannot tolerate visible forms, he cannot tolerate sounds... odors... flavors... tactual objects. A monk endowed with these five qualities is not capable of entering and remaining in right concentration. 

A monk endowed with these five qualities is capable of entering and remaining in right concentration. Which five? He can tolerate visible forms, he can tolerate sounds... odors... flavors... tactual objects. A monk endowed with these five qualities is capable of entering and remaining in right concentration.

And again, the suttas define right concentration and the faculty of concentration as jhāna. If the meditator were in a state of fixed absorption where s/he wasn’t able to experience the external sensory spheres in jhāna then there would be no reason to maintain that one needs to be able to tolerate them while abiding in jhāna.

In fact, in MN 152 Indriyabhāvanā Sutta, the Buddha criticizes the methods of contemplative development (bhāvanā) of the faculties (indriyani) taught by the brahmin Parāsariya whereby “one does not see forms with the eye, nor hear sounds with the ear.” Regarding such methods the Buddha replies:
If that were the case, Uttara, then a blind man would have developed faculties and a deaf man would have developed faculties, according to the words of the brahmin Parāsariya. For a blind man does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf man does not hear sounds with the ear.

Later in this same discourse the Buddha exhorts Ven. Ānanda and the other monks to go practice meditation (jhāyatha):
Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Meditate Ānanda. Do not be heedless. Do not later fall into regret. This is our instruction to you.

In no explicit version of the jhāna formula, nor in any of the descriptions of jhāna factors found in the suttas, nor in any similes or graphic illustrations used to describe jhāna in the suttas is there any reference to the cessation of the experience of the five sensory spheres. If such cessation were a necessary and defining characteristic of the experience of jhāna, then the discourses would say so.

This understanding that the five external sensory spheres are only eliminated in the formless attainments also accords with the Vimuttimagga:
This is according to the teaching of the Buddha which says that owing to the non-removal of these (apperceptions of resistance) in that (concentration) sound is a thorn to one entering the first jhāna, Thus disliking form, he goes further. He eliminates them here (by attaining the sphere of infinite space). Therefore, he attains to the imperturbability of the formless attainment and the peacefulness of liberation. Aḷāra Kālāma and Uddaka Rāmaputta when they entered the formless attainment, did not see nor hear those five hundred carts passing and repassing.

And later in the same text:
When the yogin enters into concentration, he hears sounds, but he does not speak because the faculty of hearing and that of speech are not united. To a man who enters form concentration, sound is disturbing. Hence the Buddha taught: “To a man who enters jhāna, sound is a thorn.”

Jhāna and Clear Seeing (Vipassanā)

According to the discourses clear seeing should be conjoined with calm (samatha) while abiding in jhāna. MN 111 Anupada Sutta informs us that the clear seeing of phenomena one by one as they occur (anupadadhammavipassanā) is to be engaged in while remaining in jhāna:
Whatever phenomena there are in the first jhāna: directed thought, evaluation, joy, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, apperception, intention, mind, desire, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention; he defined them one by one as they occurred. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He understood, ‘So this is how these phenomena, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.’

Regarding those phenomena, he remained unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers.

And AN 9.36 Jhāna Sutta instructs the meditator to see (samanupassati) the three characteristics of the five aggregates:
He sees whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, apperception, fabrications, and consciousness, as impermanent, as unsatisfactory, as a disease, as a cancer, as a dart, as painful, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as emptiness, as not-self.

In both of these discourses the same instruction is given for each of the remaining three jhānas as well. Therefore, according to the discourses one is to engage in clear seeing while abiding in jhāna.

An Integrated Eightfold Path

The noble eightfold path presented in the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka and early para-canonical sources such as the Peṭakopadesa and the Nettippakaraṇa always include the coupling of calm (samatha) and clear seeing (vipassanā) at some stage of the noble path. These two mental factors are mutually conditioning, each serving to strengthen the other when skillfully employed within jhāna. 

Nowhere in the Pāḷi Nikāyas is there any suggestion of an alternate path of gradual training which doesn’t include the mastery of jhāna as a requisite for full liberation. The Buddha, through trial and error, realized for himself that the noble eightfold path must fully integrate ethical conduct (sīla), meditation (samādhi), and discernment (paññā) for it to be optimally efficacious.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:36 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
The Second Jhāna

DN 22 Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta gives the standard formula for the second jhāna as follows:
With the stilling of directed thought and evaluation he enters and remains in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of concentration.

With the elimination of directed thought and evaluation in the second jhāna, the two factors of serene-clarity (sampasādana) and mental unification (cetaso ekodibhāva) become prominent enough to be experientially distinguished. Just as the joy and pleasure born of seclusion and the concomitant expansive mind (mahaggatā citta) of the first jhāna opens up a whole new vista of experience not previously available, and display the limitations of any previously held conceptual views based on conventional rationality or normative empiricism, now the serene-clarity and mental unification experienced by the silent mind in the second jhāna reveal another completely new level of samādhi.

Here the experience of the silent mind can be likened to the surface of a completely tranquil lake. This is serene-clarity and mental unification. With this experience there is a definite sense of confidence in the quality of this internally composed level of samādhi, along with the subtle joy and pleasure thereby experienced, which DN 9 designates as an actual refined apperception of joy and pleasure born of concentration (samādhijapītisukhasukhumasaccasaññā).

SN 48.40 states that any adventitious occurrence of unhappiness which may arise in the first jhāna due to the presence of directed thought and evaluation, ceases completely here in the second jhāna. What remains is the pleasure faculty (sukhindriya) and the happiness faculty (somanassindriya), which in light of SN 48.37, in the second jhāna refers to bodily pleasure (kāyika sukha) and mental happiness (cetasika sukha, i.e. somanassa).

This reading of the relevant sutta passages is also supported by the word-commentary for the second jhāna given in Peṭakopadesa 7.72:
With the constant cultivation of this same directed thought and evaluation his mind becomes inclined there. Then the directed thought and evaluation seem gross to him, as well as the joy and pleasure born of renunciation, and so joy and delight born of concentration arise instead.

His mind, [which] had evaluation as an object-support, becomes internally serenely-clarified with the stilling of these [two factors of the first jhāna]. The two phenomena, directed thought and evaluation, no longer need to be recollected, and what now can be served due to their stilling is the presently arisen unification which is singleness of mind. It is through unification that joy comes to fulfillment. The joy is the happiness faculty, while the pleasure is the pleasure faculty. The singleness of mind is concentration. So the second jhāna possesses four factors.

The Third Jhāna

DN 22 Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta gives the standard formula for the third jhāna as follows:
With the fading away of joy he remains equanimous, mindful and fully aware, and experiences pleasure with the body; he enters and remains in the third jhāna of which the noble ones say, ‘Equanimous and mindful, he abides pleasantly.’

AN 9.42 tells us that the pleasure commonly referred to in the descriptions of the third jhāna is actually the pleasure of equanimity (upekkhāsukha). This accords well with SN 48.40, when it states that the pleasure faculty (sukhindriya) ceases in the third jhāna. What remains is the equanimity faculty (upekkhindriya) and the happiness faculty (somanassindriya), which in light of SN 48.37, in the third jhāna refers to bodily equanimity (kāyika upekkhā) and mental pleasure (cetasika sukha). DN 9 refers to the apperception of this experience as an actual refined apperception of equanimity (upekkhāsukhasukhumasaccasaññā).

Again, this conforms to the word-commentary offered in Peṭakopadesa 7.72:
With the fading away of joy he has abandoned what is comprised of wetness (i.e. joy). But happiness of mind still arises there, and when he investigates that, he gives attention only to equanimity. With the fading away of joy he remains equanimous, and as he still feels with the body the pleasure [of equanimity] induced by joy, he remains fully aware. Mindful and fully aware, equanimity comes to fulfillment.

It is also worth noting that mindfulness and full awareness are given as dominant jhāna facors here in the third jhāna. This reveals the integral progression from the four applications of mindfulness as right mindfulness continuing through to the third and fourth jhānas as right concentration.

The Fourth Jhāna

DN 22 Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta gives the standard formula for the fourth jhāna as follows:
With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the earlier passing away of happiness and unhappiness, he enters and remains in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure or pain, and includes the purity of equanimity and mindfulness.

SN 48.40 states that the happiness faculty (somanassindriya) ceases in the fourth jhāna. What remains is both bodily and mental equanimity (kāyika and cetasika upekkhā) as stated in SN 48.37, which DN 9 calls an actual refined apperception of neither pleasure nor pain (adukkhamasukhasukhumasacca saññā).

Again, this agrees with Peṭakopadesa 7.72:
In the first jhāna the pain faculty ceases and in the second jhāna the unhappiness faculty ceases, so with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the earlier passing away of happiness and unhappiness, he enters and remains in the fourth jhāna, which is without pleasure or pain, and includes the purity of equanimity and mindfulness.

Here [previously] equanimity was still not clarified due to the presence of the four faculties, namely the pain faculty, the unhappiness faculty, the pleasure faculty, and the happiness faculty. With the cessation of these there is equanimity and full awareness. 

Here, it was due to the pleasure faculty and the happiness faculty that there was a lack of mindfulness, and with their cessation he becomes possessed of mindfulness. And it was due to the pain faculty and the unhappiness faculty that there was a lack of full awareness, and with their cessation he becomes fully aware. So with the clarification of equanimity, [which is accompanied by neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling,] he becomes mindful and fully aware, and there is singleness of mind. This is called the fourth jhāna.

The Nimitta of Jhāna

Depending upon the context in which the term is used, nimitta can refer to either (i) a cause, or (ii) a cognitive sign which is a mental representation, closely related to apperception. MN 44 tells us that one of the four applications of mindfulness is the nimitta which serves as the cause for the eventual elimination of the five hindrances and, beyond that, the arising of the five concomitant mental factors of the first jhāna. And according to AN 9.35, the nimitta as the cognitive sign of the first jhāna is the presence of these same five concomitant jhāna factors. AN 9.35 states that this nimitta is to be developed, pursued, and established. And when properly engaged, these five factors work in consort to refine and maintain what DN 9 calls an actual refined apperception of joy and pleasure born of seclusion (vivekajapītisukhasukhumasaccasaññā). 

Therefore, according to the earliest strata of the Pāḷi dhamma there is no need to establish a jhāna nimitta (or samathanimitta or cittanimitta) apart from the jhāna factors. The various practices categorized under the four applications of mindfulness are the samādhinimittas which serve as the cause of jhāna. The concomitant jhāna factors themselves are the nimitta which is the cognitive sign of having attained the first jhāna.

That said, some contemporary teachers and commentators have suggested that the sign of light (obhāsanimitta) and/or the sign of form (rūpanimitta) mentioned in MN 128 Upakkilesa Sutta are canonical references to what later came to be designated as the counterpart sign (paṭibhāganimitta) in the commentaries, and thus establishes that these nimittas were considered an essential aspect of the development of jhāna even in the early tradition. 

There are a couple of points worth mentioning in this regard. Firstly, MN 128 is the only discourse where the term nimitta is used in this context. None of the other canonical occurrences of nimitta as either samādhinimitta, samatha nimitta, or cittanimitta refer to any of these nimittas being an obhāsanimitta or rūpanimitta as explained in the Upakkilesa Sutta.

Secondly, nowhere in the Upakkilesa Sutta does it state that either the obhāsanimitta or the rūpanimitta are essential prerequisites for attaining the first jhāna. Nor does this sutta maintain that the complete elimination of any experience of the five sensory spheres is essential for the arising of either of these two cognitive signs. Therefore, while these apperceptions of light and visions of form can occur during the course of meditational development, there is no explicit statement here, or elsewhere in the suttas, that such apperceptions must arise for one to enter jhāna. Indeed, even the commentarial tradition doesn’t maintain that either of these types of nimittas are essential for the first jhāna.

For example, the Vimuttimagga takes the instructions offered in the Upakkilesa Sutta to refer to the development of the divine eye. This is understandable, as Anuruddhā, the main interlocutor in this discourse with the Buddha, was later designated as the foremost disciple endowed with the divine eye.

And not even the Visuddhimagga limits counterpart signs to apperceptions of light or forms. According to the Visuddhimagga analysis, of the thirty meditations which lead to jhāna, twenty-two have counterpart signs as object. And of these, only nineteen require any sort of counterpart sign which is apprehended based solely on sight, and can therefore give rise to a mental image resulting from that nimitta (the ten stages of corpse decomposition and nine kasiṇas, excluding the air kasiṇa which can be apprehended by way of either sight or tactile sensation).

And so taking all of the above into consideration, according to the early Pāḷi dhamma there is no need to establish a jhāna nimitta (or samathanimitta or cittanimitta) apart from the jhāna factors. And even according to the Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga — where the presentation of the method using a counterpart sign is explicitly developed — there is no suggestion that a counterpart sign necessarily must be a sign of light (obhāsanimitta) and/or a sign of form (rūpanimitta). Indeed, according to the Vimuttimagga, when employing mindfulness of breathing in order to attain jhāna, the counterpart sign should be concomitant with the pleasant feeling which arises as one attends to the breath at the nostril area or the area of the upper lip, which is likened to the pleasant feeling produced by a breeze. The text says that this counterpart sign doesn’t depend on color or form, and any adventitious mental images which arise in the course of practice should not be attended to.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:35 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Joy and pleasure born of seclusion (vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ)

The discourses differentiate between carnal joy and pleasure (sāmisā pīti and sukha) and non-carnal joy and pleasure (nirāmisā pīti and sukha). SN 36.31 Nirāmisa Sutta tells us that carnal joy and pleasure arise in dependence on the five strands of sensual pleasure, while non-carnal joy arises in the first two jhānas and non-carnal pleasure arises in the first three jhānas.

SN 48.40 Uppaṭipāṭika Sutta states that the pain faculty (dukkhindriya) ceases completely in the first jhāna, the unhappiness faculty (domanassindriya) ceases completely in the second jhāna, the pleasure faculty (sukhindriya) ceases completely in the third jhāna, and the happiness faculty (somanassindriya) ceases completely in the fourth jhāna.

SN 48.37 Dutiyavibhaṅga Sutta informs us that the pleasure and pain faculties are born of body contact (kāyasamphassaja), whereas the happiness and unhappiness faculties are born of mind contact (manosamphassaja).

Taking all of the above passages into consideration we can deduce that the non-carnal joy of the first jhāna is mental pleasure (cetasika sukha, i.e. somanassa) born of mind contact, and the non-carnal pleasure of the first jhāna is bodily pleasure (kāyika sukha) born of body contact.

This reading of these sutta sources accords with Peṭakopadesa 7.72:
The twofold bodily and mental pain does not arise in one steadied in directed thought and evaluation, and the twofold bodily and mental pleasure does arise. The mental pleasure thus produced from directed thought is joy, while the bodily pleasure is bodily feeling.

This understanding is also supported by the Vimuttimagga. The author of the Vimuttimagga was knowledgeable of and quotes from the Uppaṭipāṭika Sutta, the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Vibhaṅga, and the Peṭakopadesa. And when commenting on the bathman simile for the first jhāna (e.g. DN 2, MN 119, etc.) he explains:
Just as the bath powder is moistened thoroughly and just as it, through adhering, does not scatter, so the yogin in the first jhāna is filled with joy from head to foot and from foot to skull, skin, and hair, and dwells without falling....

[Q.] Joy and pleasure are called formless phenomena. How then can they fill the body?

[A.] Name (nāma) depends on form (rūpa). Form depends on name. Therefore, if name is filled with joy, form is also filled with joy. If name is filled with pleasure, form is also filled with pleasure.

To this we can add a couple of more points. First, due to the presence of directed thought and evaluation in the first jhāna, intermittent occurrences of mental unhappiness can still arise, as indicated in SN 48.40. Thus the singleness of mind of the first jhāna isn’t necessarily as unified as in the higher jhānas. Secondly, when the meditator is steadied in the first jhāna, all of the jhāna factors work together to maintain what DN 9 calls an actual refined apperception of joy and pleasure born of seclusion (vivekajapītisukhasukhumasaccasaññā). Thus, while the singleness of mind of the first jhāna may not be as unified as in the higher jhānas, it is still a very refined samādhi. It takes considerable mental development in order to be able to successfully induce and maintain this level of heightened mind (adhicitta).

Singleness of mind (cittekaggatā)

Although singleness of mind isn’t mentioned in the standard formula of the first jhāna, likely because it isn’t as prominent here as in the second jhāna, nevertheless, MN 43 lists it as one of the five jhāna factors. Moreover, MN 44 Culavedalla Sutta, defines concentration (samādhi) as singleness of mind:
Singleness of mind (cittassa ekaggatā) is concentration, friend Visakha; the four applications of mindfulness are its causes (nimitta); the four right exertions are its requisites; and any cultivation, development, and pursuit of these qualities is its development.

It’s also worth noting that the nimittas of concentration are given as the four applications of mindfulness.

Similarly, the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) is defined as the attainment of singleness of mind by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka) who has attained the path. SN 48.10 Indriyavibhaṅga Sutta:
And what is the faculty of concentration? Here monks, a noble disciple, making letting go his object, gains concentration, gains singleness of mind. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful phenomena, he enters and remains in the first jhāna....

And this definition of the faculty of concentration naturally includes jhāna as the eighth component of the noble eightfold path.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:34 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
The Hindrances: Five Things Abandoned in the First Jhāna

Before we investigate the jhāna formula any further, we can take a look at what specifically is abandoned in order to enter and remain in the first jhāna, namely, the five hindrances (pañcanīvaraṇā). MN 43 Mahāvedalla Sutta, tells us:
Five factors are abandoned in the first jhāna.... Here, when a monk has entered the first jhāna, desire for sensual pleasure (kāmacchanda) is abandoned, aversion (byāpāda) is abandoned, lethargy and drowsiness (thīnamiddha) is abandoned, restlessness and anxiety (uddhaccakukkucca) is abandoned, doubt (vicikicchā) is abandoned.

MN 39 Mahāssapura Sutta elaborates:
Here monks, a monk resorts to a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, an open space, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body upright, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world [a synonym for the first hindrance], he dwells with a mind devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning aversion and anger, he dwells with a mind devoid of aversion, sympathetic to the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of aversion and anger. Abandoning lethargy and drowsiness, he dwells with a mind devoid of lethargy and drowsiness, mindful, fully aware, clearly percipient. He cleanses his mind of lethargy and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning doubt, he dwells having crossed over doubt, with no perplexity with regard to skillful phenomena. He cleanses his mind of doubt.

The abandoning of the five hindrances are a necessary but not sufficient condition for the attainment of the first jhāna. The arising of the five factors of the first jhāna are also necessary. With both of these conditions satisfied — the abandoning of the five hindrances and the arising of the five jhāna factors — the meditator has fulfilled the necessary and sufficient conditions of the first jhāna.

The Jhāna Factors: Five Phenomena the First Jhāna Is Endowed With

Returning to the jhāna formula, we can take a look at the phenomena which are present in the first jhāna. MN 43 Mahāvedalla Sutta tells us that the first jhāna is endowed with five factors:
The first jhāna has five factors. Here, when a monk has entered the first jhāna, there occurs directed thought (vitakka), evaluation (vicāra), joy (pīti), pleasure (sukha), and singleness of mind (cittekaggatā). That is how the first jhāna has five factors.

With directed thought and evaluation (savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ)

In the thought-world of the Pāḷi discourses, directed thought (vitakka) is closely related to resolve (saṅkappa). MN 78 Samaṇamuṇḍika Sutta tells us that unskillful resolves cease in the first jhāna and that skillful resolves (kusalā saṅkappā) consisting of the resolve of renunciation (nekkhamma- saṅkappa), the resolve of non-aversion (abyāpādasaṅkappa), and the resolve of harmlessness (avihiṃsāsaṅkappa) don’t cease until the second jhāna. This provides some context as to the meaning and significance of directed thought and evaluation (vicāra) in the standard jhāna formula. The Samaṇamuṇḍika Sutta states:
And what are skillful resolves? Being resolved on renunciation, on non-aversion, on harmlessness. These are called skillful resolves. What is the cause of skillful resolves? Their cause, too, has been stated, and they are said to be apperception-caused. Which apperception? — for apperception has many modes and permutations. Any renunciation-apperception, non-aversion-apperception or harmlessness-apperception: That is the cause of skillful resolves. 

Now where do skillful resolves cease without trace? Their stopping, too, has been stated: There is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, enters and remains in the second jhāna, which has internal serene-clarity and unification of mind free from thought and evaluation, and has joy and pleasure born of concentration. This is where skillful resolves cease without trace.

Of course, any experienced meditator with proficiency in attention training knows that adventitious discursive thinking inhibits the calming of the mind. And so the directed thought and evaluation of the first jhāna is more refined than adventitious discursiveness. It’s the skillful application of the cognitive faculty to a particular theme of focus, without lapsing from that focus. To be effective, directed thought and evaluation must necessarily work in concert with the concomitant application of mindfulness and sustained attention. In this way, directed thought and evaluation help to serve as causal factors for the abandoning of the hindrances, the arising of the other jhāna factors, as well as aiding in the maintenance of the jhāna factors once the first jhāna has been successfully entered.

This understanding of directed thought and evaluation finds support in the early para-canonical Peṭakopadesa, which in it’s analysis of the jhāna factors is closer to the suttas than are the definitions given in the Abhidhammapiṭaka. Regarding directed thought and evaluation in the first jhāna formula, Peṭakopadesa 7.72 offers the following word-commentary:
Here, for fulfilling non-passion he thinks the thought of renunciation. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression he thinks the thought of non-aversion. Here, for fulfilling non-delusion he thinks the thought of harmlessness.

Here, for fulfilling non-passion he is secluded from sensual pleasures. Here, for fulfilling non-aggression and fulfilling non-delusion he is secluded from unskillful phenomena. And so he enters and remains in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion. 

Directed thought: There are three kinds of directed thought, namely the thought of renunciation, the thought of non-aversion, and the thought of harmlessness.

Here, directed thought is the first instance while evaluation is the evaluation of what is thereby received.
Just as when a man sees someone approaching in the distance he does not yet know whether it is a woman or a man, but when he has received [the apperception] that “it is a woman” or “it is a man” or that “it is of such color” or that “it is one of such shape,” then when he has thought this he further scrutinizes, “How then, is he ethical or unethical, rich or poor?” This is examination. With directed thought he fixes. With examination he moves about and turns over [what has been thought].

And just as a winged bird first accumulates [speed] and then accumulates no more [speed when gliding], so too, directed thought is like the accumulation, and evaluation is like the outstretched wings which keeps preserving the directed thought and evaluation....

Directed thought is like a text-reciter who does his recitation silently. Evaluation is like him simply contemplating it.

And so, in light of the above sutta and early commentarial passages we can see that narrowly interpreting vitakka and vicāra as “initial and sustained attention” or “initial and sustained intention” represents a later semantic shift in the meaning of these terms in the context of jhāna which isn’t supported by their occurrence in the suttas and early commentarial sources such as the Peṭakopadesa. Moreover, in the list of mental factors given in MN 111, which the meditator can discern individually as they occur by employing clear seeing (anupadadhammavipassanā) while abiding in jhāna, we find vitakka as well as attention (manasikāra) and intention (cetanā) listed. If any of these three terms were synonyms for the same mental referent then there would be no way to differentiate between them, and it would have been pointless for this discourse to mention all three phenomena.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:33 am
Title: Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
The Pāḷi Jhāna Formula

The standard jhāna formula is as follows:
Idha bhikkhave vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja vihārati. (DN 22 Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta)

Here monks, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful phenomena, a monk enters and remains in the first jhāna, which includes directed thought and evaluation, as well as joy and pleasure born of seclusion.

We can examine the jhāna formula by comparing the various terms mentioned in it with other occurrences of those and related terms found throughout the suttas.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures (vivicceva kāmehi)

The first relevant sutta passage is one that occurs in various suttas. For example, AN 6.63 Nibbedhika Sutta states:
Monks, there are these five strands of sensual pleasure (kāmagunā). Forms cognizable by the eye: desirable, lovely, agreeable, endearing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. Sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tactual objects cognizable by the body: desirable, lovely, agreeable, endearing, sensually enticing, tantalizing.

It is clear that the sensual pleasures referred to in the jhāna formula that are to be withdrawn from prior to entering jhāna, include these five types of external objects referred to as strands of sensual pleasure which are desirable, lovely, agreeable, endearing, sensually enticing, and tantalizing.

There are a couple of points worth mentioning here. Firstly, these five strands of sensual pleasure are all external sensory objects. As such, they correspond to objects within the five external sensory spheres (bāhirāyatanā). Thus, these five sensory objects do not include in-and-out breathing, which is considered internal, nor the internal felt-sense of the body. The strands of sensual pleasure also do not include the apperception of foulness with regard to the thirty-one parts of the body and the nine stages of corpse decomposition. Apperception of foulness is a mental phenomenon.

Secondly, these five strands of sensual pleasure are those external sensory objects that are considered to be desirable, lovely, agreeable, endearing, sensually enticing, and tantalizing. And so it isn’t all sensory objects whatsoever that the meditator need to withdraw from. The meditator needs to withdraw from those external sensory objects which are sensually enticing and tantalizing, as stated here. This withdrawal is facilitated by removing oneself from inappropriate environments for meditation and by abandoning the hindrance of desire for sensual pleasure (kāmacchanda). Both are necessary prerequisites for entering the first jhāna.

As for the relationship between the withdrawal from inappropriate environments and external sensory objects MN 150 Nagaravindeyya Sutta informs us that one practicing for the removal of passion resorts to a remote location:
[T]hose venerable ones resort to remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest. For there are no forms cognizable by the eye there of a kind that they could look at and delight in. There are no sounds cognizable by the ear there of a kind that they could listen to and delight in. There are no odors cognizable by the nose there of a kind that they could smell and delight in. There are no flavors cognizable by the tongue there of a kind that they could taste and delight in. There are no tactual objects cognizable by the body there of a kind that they could touch and delight in.

Continuing with AN 6.63, we can see that a clear distinction is made between sensual pleasures (kāmā) and the five strands of sensual pleasure (kāmagunā). After defining the five strands of sensual pleasure in the previous passage, the Buddha states:
But monks, these are not sensual pleasures (kāmā). They are called strands of sensual pleasure (kāmagunā) in the discipline of the noble ones.

The resolve of passion is a man’s sensual pleasure.
The world’s beautiful things are not sensual pleasures.
The resolve of passion is a man’s sensual pleasure.
The beauties remain as they are in the world,
While the wise remove desire for them.

Here the Buddha is differentiating sensual pleasures (kāmā) which are the resolve of passion (saṅkapparāga), from the beautiful external sensory objects of that passion, pertaining to which the wise remove desire. The removal of this passionate desire is a major theme of the dhammavinaya. This removal begins with practicing sense restraint (indriya saṃvara), developing the thought of renunciation (nekkhamma vitakka), and is progressively accomplished through the integration of the three path aggregations of ethical conduct (sīla), meditation (samādhi), and discernment (paññā). This eventually culminates in the fruition of the path which includes the complete elimination of the mental outflow of sensuality (kāmāsava).

What these discourses imply is that sensory objects are not inherently “kāma” in and of themselves. MN 13 Mahādukkhakhandha Sutta tells us that the strands of sensual pleasure are the allure of kāma. SN 3.12 Pañcarāja Sutta confirms that the very forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects which are agreeable to one person, are disagreeable to another.

Thus external sensory objects are only strands of sensual pleasure if they are agreeable, sensually enticing and tantalizing. And Itivuttaka 72 informs us that renunciation is the escape from sensual pleasures.

In SN 36.19 Pañcakaṅga Sutta the Buddha tells Ven. Ānanda that whatever pleasure or happiness arises in dependence on the five strands of sensual pleasure is called sensual pleasure. And MN 66 Laṭukikopama Sutta states that this sensual pleasure is:
[A] filthy pleasure, a worldly pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And I say that this pleasure is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared.

Based on these statements it follows that any visible objects of the nine stages of corpse decomposition (DN 22, MN 10) associated with the apperception of foulness, or the visible sphere consisting of “the ridges and hollows, the rivers and ravines, the tracts of stumps and thorns, the mountains and irregular places” associated with the apperception of forest (MN 121), which are engaged for developing calm (samatha) in the course of attaining jhāna, cannot be strands of sensual pleasure. If they were, any concomitant pleasure and happiness which would arise in dependence upon these sensory objects would be inappropriate and not worth development (bhāvanā).

This distinction between the five strands of sensual pleasure and the appropriate objects to be employed for mental development is indicated in SN 47.6 Sakuṇagghi Sutta, which clearly differentiates between the five strands of sensual pleasure and the four applications of mindfulness (satipaṭṭhānā). In this discourse one is instructed to avoid wandering into the range of the five strands of sensual pleasure and instead remain in one’s own proper range of the four satipaṭṭhānas:
Do not stray, monks, into what is not your own range and is the domain of others. Māra will gain access to those who stray into what is not their own range and is the domain of others. Māra will get a hold on them. 

And what, for a monk, is not his own range and is the domain of others? The five strands of sensual pleasure.... These, for a monk, are not his own range and are the domain of others.

Move, monks, in what is your own range, your own ancestral domain. Māra will not gain access to those who move in their own range, their own ancestral domain. Māra will not get a hold on them. 

And what, for a monk, is his own range, his own ancestral domain? The four applications of mindfulness. Which four? Here monks, a monk remains contemplating the body in the body, ardent, fully aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and unhappiness with regard to the world. He remains contemplating feelings in feelings ... mind in mind ... phenomena in phenomena, ardent, fully aware, mindful, having removed covetousness and unhappiness with regard to the world. This, for a monk, is his own range, his own ancestral domain.

With the four applications of mindfulness as the cause for entering and remaining in jhāna, one doesn’t attend to, or partake in any of the five external strands of sensual pleasure. MN 26 Pāsarāsi Sutta states that this allegorically blinds Māra. And as SN 35.115 Dutiyamārapāsa Sutta tells us, if one doesn’t seek delight or grasp onto any sensually enticing phenomenon, then one is said to have escaped from Māra’s snare.

Secluded from unskillful phenomena (vivicca akusalehi dhammehi)

Returning to the jhāna formula, we can next investigate the withdrawal from unskillful phenomena (akusala dhammas). MN 13 Mahādukkhakkhandha Sutta states that bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, and mental misconduct (kāyena duccarita, vācāya duccarita, manasā duccarita) have sensuality as their cause and source. MN 9 Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta elaborates on these three types of misconduct by giving the standard tenfold list of misconduct:
Taking life is unskillful, taking what is not given is unskillful, sexual misconduct is unskillful, lying is unskillful, abusive speech is unskillful, harsh speech is unskillful, gossip is unskillful, covetousness is unskillful, aversion is unskillful, wrong view is unskillful.

AN 3.102 Paṃsudhovaka Sutta tells us that this level of bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct are coarse defilements. This sutta goes on to state that thoughts of sensual pleasure, thoughts of aversion, and thoughts of harmfulness are considered middling defilements. And thoughts of one’s friends and relatives, thoughts of one’s homeland, and thoughts of not wanting to be disliked are considered subtle defilements. With the abandoning of all of these types of defilement there remain only thoughts related to the dhamma. But one still has to develop one’s mind so that it grows steady inwardly, settles down, and grows unified and concentrated.

And in SN 45.22 Akusaladhamma Sutta, we read that wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, and wrong concentration are unskillful phenomena. Conversely, the same discourse states that skillful phenomena are right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. And as we have already seen, right concentration (sammāsamādhi) is defined as jhāna.

And so it’s evident that the unskillful phenomena that are to be withdrawn from prior to entering jhāna and while remaining in jhāna are all coarse, middling, and subtle defilements which are unskillful dhammas of body, speech, and mind. And this is accomplished by developing the noble eightfold path.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:32 am
Title: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas
Content:
Hi all,

Here is some of the Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas paper. The focus is on what the Pāḷi suttas have to tell us regarding the role of jhāna in the noble eightfold path. I also examine passages which define and detail the phenomena experienced in each of the four jhānas. Emphasis is placed on the investigation of the first jhāna, as well as the noble eightfold path resulting in liberation through discernment (paññāvimutti). Liberation through discernment is considered the complete liberation of an arahant, which doesn’t require the attainment of any other five higher gnoses (abhiññā), formless attainments, or the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling.

I’m well aware that this subject matter may not be of interest to some people. It’s posted here for those who are interested. For anyone who doesn’t find the contents of this thread informative or helpful, I respectfully and wholeheartedly agree that they would be better served to follow whatever interpretation of the dhammavinaya that they have faith in and find helpful. It runs counter to the intent of the dhamma for anyone who isn’t fully awakened to maintain definite conclusions that “Only this is true; anything else is worthless” (MN 95).

All the best,

Geoff



The Importance of Jhāna in the Development of the Noble Eightfold Path

According to the discourses the four jhānas play an essential role in the development of the noble eightfold path. All four main Nikāyas define right concentration (sammāsamādhi) as jhāna. The four jhānas are also given as the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā), as well as the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) and the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariya sāvaka). According to the suttas and the earliest strata of canonical commentary and para-canonical commentary, all of these factors have to be engaged and developed for full awakening to occur.

This means that liberation through discernment (paññā-vimutti) cannot happen without mastery of at least the first jhāna. This integral relationship between jhāna and discernment (paññā) is explicit in the description of the noble eightfold path, where jhāna is given as the definition of right concentration, and is also explicitly stated in other discourses as well. An unequivocal example of this integral relationship is clearly expressed in Dhammapada 371-372:
Practice jhāna monk; do not be heedless.
Do not let your mind roam in strands of sensual pleasure.
Do not swallow a red-hot iron ball, heedless.
Do not burn and cry, “This is pain.”

There is no jhāna for one without discernment,
No discernment for one without jhāna.
But for one with both jhāna and discernment,
He is close to nibbāna.

And also AN 9.36 Jhāna Sutta:
I say, monks, the elimination of the mental outflows depends on the first jhāna.

DN 2 Sāmaññaphala Sutta tells us that the elimination of the mental outflows (āsavas) can occur while remaining in the fourth jhāna:
With his mind thus concentrated, purified and cleansed, unblemished, free from impurities, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the elimination of the mental outflows. He understands as it really is that, ‘This is unsatisfactoriness... This is the origination of unsatisfactoriness... This is the cessation of unsatisfactoriness... This is the way leading to the cessation of unsatisfactoriness....’

Thus knowing, thus seeing, his mind is liberated from the mental outflow of sensuality, the mental outflow of becoming, the mental outflow of ignorance. With liberation there is the gnosis, ‘liberated.’ He understands that, ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, done is what had to be done, there is nothing further here.’

Now if the elimination of the mental outflows requires the development of concentration regarding the rise and fall of the five aggregates of clinging — and AN 4.41 Samādhi Sutta tells us that it does — then one is necessarily developing concentration regarding the rise and fall of the aggregates of clinging here, specifically in the context of the four noble truths, by engaging the mind thus concentrated, purified and cleansed, unblemished, free from impurities, pliant, malleable, and steady in the fourth jhāna.

Again, AN 9.36 states that the elimination of the mental outflows depends on attaining at least the first jhāna. If one can end the āsavas through the fourth jhāna as stated in DN 2, then there is no reason to maintain that one must emerge from the first jhāna to do the same.

This understanding of liberation through discernment requiring mastery of at least the first jhāna is also implied in discourses which state that one liberated through discernment doesn’t abide in any of the formless attainments (MN 70) or have any of the five mundane higher gnoses (SN 12.70). It is also implicit in the description of the “white lotus ascetic” (samaṇapuṇḍarīka) offered in AN 4.87 Samaṇamacala Putta Sutta, where it is said that this type of arahant doesn’t abide personally experiencing the eight deliverances (aṭṭha vimokkha), yet has both liberation of mind (cetovimutti) and liberation through discernment. Liberation of mind requires mastery of at least the first jhāna.


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:55 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
Then what is the subject here?


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:29 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
Historically the Visuddhimagga occupies a rather marginal place in the history of Indian Buddhism. The Vimuttimagga on the other hand, was twice translated in part into Tibetan and fully translated into Chinese.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:40 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
Then it seems to me that my post addresses this point. There are ancient Thera texts much older than the Visuddhimagga that offer commentary on jhāna which is far more in keeping with the suttas than the classical model presented in the Vsm. Kester's notion of a "usual interpretation" is limited due to source bias. Therefore, his rhetoric about an "unusual, modern interpretation" of jhāna is both inaccurate and tired -- it really should be put to bed. There was and still is a whole vibrant world of Pāḷi dhamma beyond the supposed confines of the Mahāvihāra.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:13 pm
Title: Re: Not Everything Is Written In Stone. . .
Content:
However, this description of blissed-out "ambulance jhāna" doesn't find any support in the discourses. According to the discourses there is full mindfulness and clear comprehension in all four jhānas.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:19 am
Title: Re: Bardo?
Content:
Hi Dan &amp; all,

The Tibetan term bardo corresponds to the Sanskrit antarābhava. The notion of an intermediate state isn't a Tibetan innovation. It goes all the way back to various early Nikāya sects. And it certainly informs Chinese Buddhism, and I would suspect Korean Buddhism also.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:14 pm
Title: Re: Know and Let Go
Content:
Thanks Steve, a very good dhamma talk.

 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:12 pm
Title: Re: Endless hours talking about nothing.
Content:
From reading the title of this thread I thought it was going to be about Tilt's summation of the hardcore dharma thread....


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:57 am
Title: Re: Richard Gombrich
Content:
Hi Suan &amp; all,

For anyone who is interested there are a number of Bronkhorst's papers and such available on the Université de Lausanne Unisciences site.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:09 am
Title: Re: Buddho
Content:
Hi all,

Here is a little gāthā that I once came up with on the practice of buddho.
Arahaṃ

Buddho is to be individually known (paccatta veditabba).
Buddho is great compassion (mahākaruṇā).
Buddho is non-indicative (anidassana).
Buddho is objectless (anārammaṇa).
Buddho is unestablished (appatiṭṭha).
Buddho is measureless (appamāṇa).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:36 pm
Title: Re: Pali Term: Dhamma-vicaya
Content:
Please continue to keep up the good work Dmytro. This post is particularly clear and well said.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:31 pm
Title: Re: Basic Abhidhamma teachings
Content:
Yes.


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:01 am
Title: Re: Basic Abhidhamma teachings
Content:
Hi Mike,

I think you probably understand this already, but I'll add it as a further qualification of my previous comment.... 

The dhamma is a way, a path coursing away from dissatisfaction and toward authentic liberation. Thus there's always a question of the skillfulness of a presentation, which is informed by the speaker's and the listener's view, and offers the possibility of further informing the listener's view. When we move away from the noble eightfold path embedded in the canon in search of understanding, the possibility arises of encountering self-limiting interpretations either rooted in a desire to set boundaries of orthodox definition not evident in the canon itself, or the opposite desire to discard much if not everything that's not explicitly stated in the suttas (or beyond this, discarding whatever we deem unacceptable in the suttas as well). Either of these moves, if accepted uncritically, can impose conceptual filters upon what we acknowledge as the possible interpretation of our own experience (i.e. view) as well as the path components to be implemented in our practice.

We only need to look at the widespread contemporary emphasis on a path of training and development which doesn't fully embrace the integration of non-carnal joy and pleasure (nirāmisā pīti and sukha), which the discourses tell us are integral sweet fruits of the ascetic life, or alternatively, the uncritical rejection of everything not supposedly uttered by the Buddha, to begin to recognize some of the consequences of accepting self-limiting interpretations of what the noble path "should be."

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:59 pm
Title: Re: basic teachings
Content:
Hi Mike &amp; all,

There is no reification of dhammas in the Abhidhammapiṭaka. The classical and medieval ābhidhammika commentaries are another matter. There is a gap in abhidhamma studies between correlating the discourses with the main texts of the Abhidhammapiṭaka, as well as the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Peṭakopadesa, and the Nettippakaraṇa, one the one hand, and the classical and medieval interpretations of the Abhidhammapiṭaka, etc., on the other. The realist and ontological propositions in Professor Karunadasa's paper which are based on classical and medieval interpretation are not sustainable with reference to the canonical and para-canonical Pāḷi texts themselves.

One of the few studies which even begins to take into consideration the historical development of ābhidhammika ideas in a meaningful way is Early Buddhist Metaphysics: The Making of a Philosophical Tradition by Noa Ronkin.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:20 am
Title: Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Content:
As the "hardcore dharma" people are every bit as marginal as the above self-proclaimed "teachers" there is no significant "deep division within the Western Buddhist community." Sure there are people deluded enough to encourage such nonsense, but that's their problem.


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:24 pm
Title: Re: Breath this... Breath that...
Content:
Hi Mettafuture,

I practice earth kasiṇa and/or air kasiṇa meditation every day and find it very useful for developing deep calm (samatha). The aim of the practice is the attunement of apperception to the totality of whichever kasiṇa one is working with, but for developing calm I've found that it's best to start with the commentarial method of using a circular disk. I use potting soil leveled flat in a large shallow bowl for an earth kasiṇa disk, and also have a few color kasiṇas cut out of colored cloth. Anyway, a few sources on kasiṇa practice to get started:

The Meaning of Kasiṇa by Dmytro Ivakhnenko.

Colour-Kasiṇa Meditation.

Meditation of Divine Dwelling in Elements and Colours.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:36 am
Title: Re: Latest from "hardcore dharma"
Content:



Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:48 pm
Title: Re: Regarding the absence of "JCSuperstar"
Content:
May James and his loved ones find some comfort in the dhamma during this difficult time.

 

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:28 am
Title: Re: Thich Nhat Hanh: Dependant Co-arising & Inter-Being
Content:
Yes, certainly.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:37 am
Title: Re: Thich Nhat Hanh: Dependant Co-arising & Inter-Being
Content:
Hi dhamma follower,

Why should Ven. Hạnh's teachings need to conform to the sutta-s of the Pāḷi Canon? His tradition isn't based on the Pāḷi Canon and the bodhisattvayāna isn't explicitly taught in the Pāḷi Canon at all. (Hence Ven. Dhammapāla's use of the Bodhisattvabhūmi from the Yogācārabhūmiśāstra when composing his commentary on the Pāramī-s for Theravāda practitioners who wish to engage in the perfections and practice the mahābodhiyāna of bodhisatta-s.)

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 11:50 pm
Title: Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma
Content:
Hi Peter,

I've always considered your style to be appropriate. And I've always appreciated your contributions to discussions.

IMO (and I'm sure you're aware of this too) this type of internet forum conversation -- where bits of each participants contribution are frozen in time, and there is no possibility of fully ascertaining the tone or the body language or the general disposition, etc., of the other participants comments in real time and in person -- imposes some limitations on accurate interpretation and understanding which would not be present in person to person conversation. Thus, for myself it seems important to generally give other posters the benefit of assuming that they are not trying to cause dissonance; and informed disagreement is always an opportunity for me to learn and to try to improve my own communication skills. On that note, this thread has demonstrated my lack of accurately considering your perspective when I carelessly added your post to the OP without clarification of why your post stimulated me to create this thread in the first place.

Anyway, I wish you'd continue here, as Dhamma Wheel is richer with you than without you. But as you feel that it's time to take leave, I respect that too. It's my hope that you'll at least keep open the possibility of returning at some point.

 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:19 am
Title: Re: Thich Nhat Hanh: Dependant Co-arising & Inter-Being
Content:
Interpenetration in action!... No impenetrable boundaries ... evah!

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:44 am
Title: Re: Thich Nhat Hanh: Dependant Co-arising & Inter-Being
Content:
Hi Christopher &amp; all,

Paticcasamuppāda, a.k.a. pratītyasamutpāda, a.k.a. 緣起, a.k.a. rten cing 'brel bar 'byung ba is not a "Theravāda" teaching. It's a teaching common to all Buddhist schools that have any meaningful connection to the Indian traditions.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:42 pm
Title: Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma
Content:
You're no shrinking violet Peter. And your quote wasn't taken out of context. I didn't give any context for your quote at all. And seeing that that has caused some confusion, I apologize.

Now, to be clear: This thread is about discussing suññatā according to the teachings of the Pāḷi dhamma. It's not about Peter or Geoff or Eric Berne or Ven. Thích Nhất Hạnh.

All the best,

Geoff

Edit: I've edited the OP to better give accurate context to this thread.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:44 pm
Title: Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma
Content:
Ah. Nevertheless I'm interested to hear what strategy Peter feels I was trying to employ?


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:29 pm
Title: Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma
Content:
You feel insulted Peter?


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:13 pm
Title: Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma
Content:
My mistake for not framing the quote from Peter more explicitly. The intent wasn't and isn't to "call out" Peter. The intent was to point to what is and is not suññatā according to the Pāḷi dhamma.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:54 pm
Title: Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma
Content:
No playing involved. This thread is about suññatā as taught in the Pāḷi dhamma. And suññatā is an important teaching according to the Pāḷi dhamma.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:21 pm
Title: Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma
Content:
This view is also found in the Sanskrit Āgamas.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:15 pm
Title: Re: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma
Content:
And entire commentaries on emptiness. For example, Paṭisambhidāmagga Suññatākathā (excerpts):
What is emptiness in [relation to] change? 

Born, form is empty of self-nature (sabhāvena suñña); disappeared, form is both changed and empty. 

Born, feeling is empty of self-nature; disappeared, feeling is both changed and empty. 

Born, perception is empty of self-nature; disappeared, perception is both changed and empty. 

Born, fabrications are empty of self-nature; disappeared, fabrications are both changed and empty. 

Born, consciousness is empty of self-nature; disappeared, consciousness is both changed and empty. 

Born, the eye is empty ... the ear is empty ... the nose is empty ... the tongue is empty ... the body is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, forms are empty ... sounds are empty ... odors are empty ... flavors are empty ... tactile sensations are empty of self-nature; disappeared, they are both changed and empty. 

Born, visual consciousness is empty ... auditory consciousness is empty ... olfactory consciousness is empty ... gustatory consciousness is empty ... tactile consciousness is empty ... mental consciousness is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, eye-contact is empty ... ear-contact is empty ... nose-contact is empty ... tongue-contact is empty ... body-contact is empty ... mind-contact is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, feeling born of eye-contact is empty ... feeling born of ear-contact is empty ... feeling born of nose-contact is empty ... feeling born of tongue-contact is empty ... feeling born of body-contact is empty ... feeling born of mind-contact is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, perception of forms is empty ... perception of sounds is empty ... perception of odors is empty ... perception of flavors is empty ... perception of tactile sensations is empty ... perception of mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, volitional intention pertaining to forms is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to sounds is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to odors is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to flavors is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to tactile sensations is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, craving for forms is empty ... craving for sounds is empty ... craving for odors is empty ... craving for flavors is empty ... craving for tactile sensations is empty ... craving for mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, directed thought pertaining to forms is empty ... directed thought pertaining to sounds is empty ... directed thought pertaining to odors is empty ... directed thought pertaining to flavors is empty ... directed thought pertaining to tactile sensations is empty ... directed thought pertaining to mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, examination pertaining to forms is empty ... examination pertaining to sounds is empty ... examination pertaining to odors is empty ... examination pertaining to flavors is empty ... examination pertaining to tactile sensations is empty ... examination pertaining to mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

Born, the eye sensory sphere is empty ... the form sensory sphere is empty ... the ear sensory sphere is empty ... the sound sensory sphere is empty ... the nose sensory sphere is empty ... the odor sensory sphere is empty ... the tongue sensory sphere is empty ... the flavor sensory sphere is empty ... the body sensory sphere is empty ... the tactile sensation sensory sphere is empty ... the mind sensory sphere is empty ... the mental phenomena sensory sphere is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, the eye element is empty ... the form element is empty ... the visual consciousness element is empty ... the ear element is empty ... the sound element is empty ... the auditory consciousness element is empty ... the nose element is empty ... the odor element is empty ... the olfactory consciousness element is empty ... the tongue element is empty ... the flavor element is empty ... the gustatory consciousness element is empty ... the body element is empty ... the tactile sensation element is empty ... the tactile consciousness element is empty ... the mind element is empty ... the mental phenomena element is empty ... the mental consciousness element is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, the sensual desire element is empty ... the form element is empty ... the formless element is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, ignorance is empty ... fabrications are empty ... consciousness is empty ... name and form are empty ... the sixfold sensory spheres are empty ... contact is empty ... feeling is empty ... craving is empty ... grasping is empty ... becoming is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

What is supreme emptiness? 

This dhamma is supreme, this dhamma is superior, this dhamma is excellent: the calming of all fabrications, the release of all acquisitions, the exhaustion of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna. This is supreme emptiness. 

What is internal emptiness? 

Internally the eye is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the ear is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the nose is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the tongue is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the body is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the mind is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

This is internal emptiness. 

What is external emptiness? 

Externally form is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally sound is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally odor is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally flavor is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally tactile sensation is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally mental phenomena are empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

This is external emptiness. 

What is emptiness both ways? 

Internally the eye and externally form are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the ear and externally sound are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the nose and externally odor are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the tongue and externally flavor are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the body and externally tactile sensation are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the mind and externally mental phenomena are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

This is emptiness both ways. 

What is the ultimate meaning (paramattha) of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware? 

Here, through renunciation one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of sensual desire; through nonaggression one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of aggression; through perception of light one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of dullness and drowsiness; through nondistraction one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of agitation; through understanding phenomena one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of doubt; through knowledge one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of ignorance; through gladness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of boredom.

Through the first jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the hindrances; through the second jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of directed thought and examination; through the third jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of rapture; through the fourth jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of pleasure; through the attainment of the sphere of infinite space one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perceptions of form, perceptions of resistance, and perceptions of diversity; through the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perception of the sphere of infinite space; through the attainment of the sphere of nothingness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perception of the sphere of infinite consciousness; through the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-nonperception one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perception of the sphere of nothingness. 

Through the contemplation of impermanence one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of permanence; through the contemplation of unsatisfactoriness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of satisfactoriness; through the contemplation of not-self one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of self; through the contemplation of dispassion one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of delight; through the contemplation of fading away one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of greed; through the contemplation of cessation one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of arising; through the contemplation of relinquishment one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of grasping; through the contemplation of decay one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of compactness; through the contemplation of fall one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of accumulation; through the contemplation of change one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of everlastingness; through the contemplation of signlessness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of signs; through the contemplation of desirelessness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of desire; through the contemplation of emptiness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation; through the clear seeing of phenomena that is higher discernment one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to grasping at a core; through gnosis and seeing one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to delusion; through the contemplation of [the] danger [of fabrications] one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to reliance [on fabrications]; through the contemplation of reflection one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of non-reflection; through the contemplation of turning away one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to bondage. 

Through the stream-entry path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of defilements associated with wrong view; through the once-returner path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of gross defilements; through the non-returner path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of secondary defilements; through the arahant path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of all defilements [i.e. ignorance]. 

Or through the nibbāna element (nibbānadhātu) without any grasping remaining for one who is fully aware this occurrence of eye ends and no further occurrence of eye arises; this occurrence of ear ends and no further occurrence of ear arises; this occurrence of nose ends and no further occurrence of nose arises; this occurrence of tongue ends and no further occurrence of tongue arises; this occurrence of body ends and no further occurrence of body arises; this occurrence of mind ends and no further occurrence of mind arises. 

This is the ultimate meaning of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware.

Paṭisambhidāmagga Vimokkhakathā (excerpts):
Monks, there are these three liberations (vimokkha). What three? Emptiness liberation, signlessness liberation, and desirelessness liberation. These, monks, are three liberations. 

What is emptiness liberation? 

Here, monks, a monk, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, reflects: 'This is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self.' In this way he construes no misinterpretation [regarding phenomena], therefore it is liberation through emptiness. This is emptiness liberation. 

What is signlessness liberation? 

Here, monks, a monk, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, reflects: 'This is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self.' In this way he construes no signs [regarding phenomena], therefore it is liberation through signlessness. This is signlessness liberation. 

What is desirelessness liberation? 

Here, monks, a monk, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, reflects: 'This is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self.' In this way he construes no desire [regarding phenomena], therefore it is liberation through desirelessness. This is desirelessness liberation. 

Knowledge from contemplation of the impermanence of form ... feeling ... perception ... fabrications ... consciousness ... etc., is emptiness liberation because it liberates from misinterpreting [these phenomena] as being permanent. 

Knowledge from contemplation of the unsatisfactoriness of form ... feeling ... perception ... fabrications ... consciousness ... etc., is emptiness liberation because it liberates from misinterpreting [these phenomena] as being satisfactory. 

Knowledge from contemplation of the selflessness of form ... feeling ... perception ... fabrications ... consciousness ... etc., is emptiness liberation because it liberates from misinterpreting [these phenomena] as being a self. 

Knowledge from contemplation of the signlessness of form ... feeling ... perception ... fabrications ... consciousness ... etc., is emptiness liberation because it liberates from misinterpreting [these phenomena] as having signs. 

Knowledge from contemplation of the desirelessness of form ... feeling ... perception ... fabrications ... consciousness ... etc., is emptiness liberation because it liberates from misinterpreting [these phenomena] as being desirable. 

Knowledge from contemplation of the emptiness of form ... feeling ... perception ... fabrications ... consciousness ... etc., is emptiness liberation because it liberates from all misinterpretation.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:14 pm
Title: Emptiness (suññatā) in the Pāḷi dhamma
Content:
Hmmm.... That's true, "emptiness" has been used in all sorts of ways throughout the centuries in support of various views. Nevertheless, there are many teachings on emptiness (suññatā) and related teachings throughout the Pāḷi dhamma. IMO it might be worthwhile to consider how emptiness is used in its various applications in the Pāḷi canon. For example:
And what is the emptiness awareness-release (suññatā cetovimutti)? There is the case where a monk, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' This is called the emptiness awareness-release. [MN 43, SN 41.7]


“Sāriputta, your faculties are clear. The color of your skin is pure and bright. What abiding do you often abide in now, Sāriputta?”

“Now, venerable sir, I often abide in voidness (suññatāvihāra).”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! Now, indeed, you often abide in the abiding of a great man. For this is the abiding of a great man, namely, voidness.

“So, Sāriputta, if a bhikkhu would wish: ‘May I now often abide in voidness,’ he should consider thus: ‘On the path by which I went to the village for alms, or in the place where I wandered for alms, or on the path by which I returned from the almsround, was there any desire, lust, hate, delusion, or aversion in my mind regarding forms cognizable by the eye?... regarding sounds cognizable by the ear?... regarding odors cognizable by the nose?... regarding flavors cognizable by the tongue?... regarding tangibles cognizable by the body?... regarding mind-objects cognizable by the mind?’ If, by reviewing, he knows thus: ‘On the path by which I went to the village for alms…there was desire, lust, hate, delusion, or aversion in my mind regarding mind-objects cognizable by the mind,’ then he should make an effort to abandon those evil unwholesome states. But if, by reviewing, he knows thus: ‘On the path by which I went to the village for alms…there was no desire, lust, hate, delusion, or aversion in my mind regarding mind-objects cognizable by the mind,’ then he can abide happy and glad, training day and night in wholesome states.” [MN 151]


'Empty village' (suñña gāma) stands for the six internal sense media. If a wise, competent, intelligent person examines them from the point of view of the eye, they appear abandoned, void, &amp; empty. If he examines them from the point of view of the ear... the nose... the tongue... the body... the intellect, they appear abandoned, void, &amp; empty. [SN 35.197 (CDB SN 35.238)]

And there are entire discourses on emptiness:

MN 121 Cūḷasuññatā Sutta

MN 122 Mahāsuññatā Sutta

MN 122 Mahāsuññatā Sutta &amp; Commentary

SN 35.85 Suñña Sutta

SN 22.95 Pheṇapiṇḍūpama Sutta


And also entire discourses on teaching by the middle (majjhena dhamma):

SN 12.17 Acelakassapa Sutta (Also SN 12.15, SN 12.35, SN 12.48, SN 22.90, etc.)


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:46 am
Title: Re: If you could only recommend 4 books...
Content:
An advanced student of what???


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:24 pm
Title: Re: If you could only recommend 4 books...
Content:
Without trying to separate dhamma from meditation, I often recommend one of these (depending on the individual):

A Path With Heart by Jack Kornfield.

A Heart as Wide as the World by Sharon Salzberg.

Food for the Heart: The Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah by Ajahn Chah. (Same teachings available online here.)

The Wings to Awakening by Ven. Ṭhānissaro. (Available online here.)


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:01 pm
Title: Re: About nibbana
Content:
Indeed. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:48 am
Title: Re: About nibbana
Content:
There are numerous dedicated meditators and commentators who have devoted their life to the dhammavinaya and who disagree with Mahāsi Sayādaw.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:09 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Bad translation and therefore meaningless conclusion.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:03 am
Title: Re: vimuttimagga
Content:
For anyone interested, here are a couple of papers which discuss aspects of the Vimuttimagga in relation to the Visuddhimagga:

The Treatise on the Path to Liberation and the Visuddhimagga by Ven. Anālayo.

The Mystery of the Breath Nimitta by Ven. Soṇa.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:30 am
Title: Re: About nibbana
Content:
Hi Zom &amp; all,

All four main Nikāya-s define right concentration (sammāsamādhi) as the four jhāna-s (D ii 313, M iii 252, S v 10, A ii 25). AN 3.88 (A i 235) lists the four jhāna-s as the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā). SN 48.10 (S v 198) lists the four jhāna-s as the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). AN 5. 14 (A iii 11) lists the four jhāna-s as the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). Moreover, SN 12.70 (S ii 121) and AN 4.87 (A ii 87) both state that there are arahants who don't have the formless attainments. And of 500 arahants mentioned in SN 8.7 (S i 191), only 60 are said to be liberated both ways (i.e. have mastery of the formless attainments).

Also, in the Dhammasaṅgaṇi, where the distinction is made between mundane form sphere jhāna (rūpāvacarajjhāna) and formless sphere jhāna (arūpāvacarajjhāna) on the one hand, and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) needed for all four paths on the other hand, supramundane jhāna is defined exclusively as the four jhāna-s (or five by dividing the first jhāna into two).

In none of these instances are the four formless attainments or the cessation attainment ever mentioned in the context of right concentration as a component of the noble eightfold path. Thus your equating nibbāna with the cessation of apperception and feeling is unsustainable, since it is entirely possible to realize nibbāna without ever experiencing the cessation attainment.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:15 am
Title: Re: "advice for stream entry"
Content:
A bit of Ajahn Chah's advice on the subject from Food for the Heart:
The Buddha is still alive to this very day, go in and find him. Where is he? At aniccam, go in and find him there, go and bow to him: aniccam, uncertainty. You can stop right there for starters.

If the mind tries to tell you, "I'm a sotapanna now," go and bow to the sotapanna. He'll tell you himself, "It's all uncertain." If you meet a sakadagami go and pay respects to him. When he sees you he'll simply say "Not a sure thing!" If there is an anagami go and bow to him. He'll tell you only one thing..."Uncertain." If you meet even an arahant, go and bow to him, he'll tell you even more firmly, "It's all even more uncertain!" You'll hear the words of the Noble Ones..."Everything is uncertain, don't cling to anything."

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:52 pm
Title: Re: About nibbana
Content:
The Nikāya-s and the Abhidhammapiṭaka are both in agreement that there can be no gnosis (ñāṇa) without simultaneous concomitant perception (saññā).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:32 pm
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Hi Sunrise,
There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters &amp; five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts &amp; practices, sensual desire, and ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters. [AN 10.13]


In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, laid to waste the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks.

In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, destined never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.

In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, &amp; delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.

In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.

In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. [MN 118]

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:13 pm
Title: Re: About nibbana
Content:
Hi Zom,

Even in the Visuddhimagga the cessation attainment (nirodhasamāpatti), a.k.a. the cessation of apperception and feeling (saññāvedayitanirodha), while nominally mentioned as similar to nibbāna in a couple of passages, nevertheless is not the same as nibbāna. Visuddhimagga 23.52: 
As to the question: Is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why? Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not unproduced.

It also can't be designated as the same as nibbāna because, as the Visuddhimagga points out, the cessation attainment requires mastery of the four formless attainments before it can be entered. Since there are arahants who haven't developed the formless attainments, they are incapable of attaining the cessation of apperception and feeling. Nevertheless, they are fully liberated through discernment.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:32 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
One who has attained the fruition of stream entry has abandoned identity view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi), i.e. self-view (attānudiṭṭhi), but still hasn't abandoned craving for existence (bhavataṇhā), which includes craving for a high birth, i.e. desire for form existence (rūparāga).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:17 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Hi Eric,

Whenever one is engaged in supramundane right view there is no generation of mental effluents at that time.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:28 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Even the commentaries admit that cessation of apperception and feeling is not asaṅkhata (cf. Kathāvatthu).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:11 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Not all arahants are liberated both ways. SN 12.70 and AN 4.87 tell us of arahants liberated through discernment who don't have any of the formless attainments. Without mastery of the formless attainments one cannot attain the cessation of apperception and feeling. 

Moreover, the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling (or any other vacuum state "attainment" of any duration that one might posit as asaṅkhata) cannot be synonymous with nibbāna because these states are impermanent. One enters them and one exits them. On the other hand, the complete elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion -- i.e. nibbāna -- is a not-conditioned (asaṅkhata) attainment which is irreversible. The other three fruitions are irreversible also, each with their respective degree of liberation.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:07 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Indeed.

All the best, 

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:50 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata. -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:18 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Yes.


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:28 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Hi Mike,

I can't speak for Ven. Ñāṇananda, but yes, that is how I understand what he is saying. We can also look at what else he says on the subject. In Concept and Reality he equates the experience of featureless/non-manifestative consciousness (anidassana viññāṇa) with the fruition-gnosis samādhi (aññāphala samādhi) of an arahant, which after first attainment can be re-entered later as the arahant's meditation. AN 9.37 describes this samādhi as follows:
Sister, the concentration whereby -- neither pressed down nor forced back, nor with fabrication kept blocked or suppressed -- still as a result of release, contented as a result of standing still, and as a result of contentment one is not agitated: This concentration is said by the Blessed One to be the fruit of gnosis.

On page 61 of Concept and Reality Ven. Ñāṇananda discusses this samādhi:
The unique feature of this samādhi is its very fluxional character. In it there is no such fixity as to justify a statement that it 'depends on' (nissāya) some object (ārammaṇa) as its support -- hence the frustration of gods and men who seek out the basis of the Tathāgata's consciousness. Normally, the jhānas are characterized by an element of fixity on which consciousness finds a footing or a steadying point. It is on this very fixity that the illusion of the ego thrives. In the above jhāna of the emancipated one, however, the ego has melted away in the fire of wisdom which sees the cosmic process of arising and cessation. Not only has the concept "I" (papañca par excellence) undergone combustion, but it has also ignited the data of sensory experience in their entirety. Thus in this jhāna of the Arahant, the world of concepts melts away in the intuitional bonfire of universal impermanence.

And on p. 67:
With his penetrative insight the Arahant sees through the concepts. Now, an object of perception (ārammaṇa) for the worldling is essentially something that is brought into focus -- something he is looking at. For the Arahant, however, all concepts have become transparent to such a degree in that all-encompassing vision, that their boundaries together with their umbra and penumbra have yielded to the radiance of wisdom. This, then, is the significance of the word ‘anantaṃ’ (endless, infinite). Thus the paradoxically detached gaze of the contemplative sage as he looks through concepts is one which has no object (ārammaṇa) as the point of focus for the worldling to identify it with.

The following excerpts from the Nibbāna Sermons help clarify these passages:
What actually happens in the attainment to the fruit of arahant-hood? The worldling discerns the world around him with the help of six narrow beams of light, namely the six sense-bases. When the superior lustre of wisdom arises, those six sense-bases go down. This cessation of the six sense bases could also be referred to as the cessation of name-and-form, nāmarūpanirodha, or the cessation of consciousness, viññāṇanirodha.

The cessation of the six sense-bases does not mean that one does not see anything. What one sees then is voidness. It is an in-‘sight’. He gives expression to it with the words suñño loko, “void is the world.” What it means is that all the sense objects, which the worldling grasps as real and truly existing, get penetrated through with wisdom and become non-manifest....

With the dispelling of the perception of permanence, the tendency to grasp a sign or catch a theme is removed. It is due to the perception of permanence that one grasps a sign in accordance with perceptual data. When one neither takes a sign nor gets carried away by its details, there is no aspiration, expectation, or objective by way of craving. When there is no aspiration, one cannot see any purpose or essence to aim at.

It is through the three deliverances, the signless, the desireless, and the void, that the drama of existence comes to an end. The perception of impermanence is the main contributory factor for the cessation of this drama....

Why do we call the vision of the arahant a vacant gaze? At the highest point of the development of the three characteristics impermanence, suffering and not-self, that is, through the three deliverances animitta, appaṇihita and suññata, the "signess", the "undirected" and the "void", the arahant is now looking at the object with a penetrative gaze. That is why it is not possible to say what he is looking at. It is a gaze that sees the cessation of the object, a gaze that penetrates the object, as it were....

Since the world is built up by the six sense-spheres, it has also to cease by the cessation of those six sense-spheres. That is why Nibbāna is defined as the cessation of the six sense-spheres, saḷāyatananirodho Nibbānaṃ. All those measuring rods and scales lose their applicability with the cessation of the six sense-spheres.

How can there be an experience of cessation of the six sense-spheres? The cessation here meant is actually the cessation of the spheres of contact. A sphere of contact presupposes a duality. Contact is always between two things, between eye and forms, for instance. It is because of a contact between two things that one entertains a perception of permanence in those two things. Dependent on that contact, feelings and perceptions arise, creating a visual world. The visual world of the humans differs from that of animals. Some things that are visible to animals are not visible to humans. That is due to the constitution of the eye-faculty. It is the same with regard to the ear-faculty. These are the measuring rods and scales which build up a world. Now this world, which is a product of the spheres of sense-contact, is a world of papañca, or "proliferation". Nibbāna is called nippapañca because it transcends this proliferation, puts an end to proliferation. The end of proliferation is at the same time the end of the six sense-spheres....

It is the substructure of this sense created world that the Buddha has revealed to us in this particular discourse on impermanence. The substructure, on analysis, reveals a duality, dvayaṃ, bhikkhave, paṭicca viññāṇaṃ sambhoti, "dependent on a dyad, monks, arises consciousness". Consciousness is not something substantial and absolute, like the so-called soul. That is precisely the point of divergence for Buddhism, when compared with those religious systems which rely on soul theories.

In the Dhamma there is mention of six consciousnesses, as cakkhu-viññāṇa, sotaviññāṇa, ghānaviññāṇa, jivhāviññāṇa, kāyaviññāṇa and manoviññāṇa, eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- and mind-consciousness. Everyone of these consciousnesses is based on a dyad. Just as in the case of eye-consciousness we are given the formula beginning with cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca, "dependent on eye and forms", so with regard to ear-consciousness we get sotañca paṭicca sadde ca, "dependent on ear and sounds", and so on. Even when we come to mind-consciousness, the theme is the same, manañca paṭicca dhamme ca, "dependent on mind and mind-objects". Mind also is vibrating, changing and transforming with extreme rapidity every moment. So are the objects of the mind.

The entire world is structured on these vibrant, transient and evanescent basic elements. That is the burden of this powerful discourse of the Buddha. Therefore, if someone developed the contemplation of impermanence to the highest degree and brought his mind to the signless state, having started from the sign itself, it goes without saying that he has realized the cessation of the world. That is, the experience of Nibbāna.

It is, at the same time, the cessation of proliferation, papañcanirodha. Prolific conceptualization is founded on the perception of permanence, whereby one comes under the sway of reckonings born of prolific perceptions, papañcasaññāsaṅkhā. Proliferation creates things, giving rise to the antinomian conflict. Duality masquerades behind it.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:29 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Hi Kenshou,

There are numerous Theravāda teachers and practitioners who don't subscribe to the (rather late) commentarial interpretation of the paths and fruitions which rests on the theory of momentariness and the reification of nibbāna as a vacuum state (i.e. such as the attainment of cessation of apperception and feeling). I think you're probably already aware of this, but for the sake of presenting an alternate perspective there's the following....

Itivuttaka 43 (Iti 37):
This said by the Blessed One, the Worthy One, was heard by me in this way: "Monks, there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning. For, monks if there were not this freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, then escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning, would not be known here. But, monks, because there is freedom from birth, freedom from becoming, freedom from making, freedom from conditioning, therefore the escape from that which is birth, becoming, making, conditioning is known."

[Here the Buddha, The Blessed One, offers his own verse commentary on his statement.]

This meaning the Blessed One spoke, it is spoken here in this way:

That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned,
And thus unstable, put together of decay and death,
The seat of disease, brittle,
Caused and craving food,
That is not fit to find pleasure in.

Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable,
Freed from birth, freed from arising, freed from sorrow,
Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped,
The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion] appeased,
This is ease [bliss].

This fruitional liberation is realized through discernment of dependent arising in reverse sequence giving rise to dispassion, etc., eventually culminating in gnosis of the complete elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion (i.e. nibbānañāṇa) . For example, Nettippakaraṇa 4.42:
These same non-learner’s five faculties are knowledge (vijjā). With the arising of knowledge [there is] the cessation of ignorance; with the cessation of ignorance, cessation of volitional fabrications; with the cessation of volitional fabrications, cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form; cessation of the six sense spheres; with cessation of the six sense spheres, cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, cessation of grasping; with the cessation of grasping, cessation of becoming; with the cessation of becoming, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging and death cease, and [also] sorrow, grieving, pain, unhappiness, and despair; that is how there is the cessation to this whole aggregate of unsatisfactoriness. This is the way of entry by the aspects of dependent arising.

Which for the non-learner (i.e. arahant) is experienced as unestablished consciousness (appatiṭṭha viññāṇa), as in SN 12.38 (S ii 65): Cetanāsutta:
[W]hen one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no establishing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land &amp; grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging &amp; death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering &amp; stress.

Which elsewhere is designated as a "measureless mind" (appamāṇacetasa, cf. S iv 119, S iv 186, S iv 189, S iv 199, &amp; M I 270), or "featureless consciousness" (anidassana viññāṇa), etc. DN 11 (D i 211) Kevaḍḍhasutta:
Consciousness without feature,
Without end, luminous all around: 
Here water, earth, fire, 
And wind have no footing. 
Here long &amp; short 
Coarse &amp; fine fair &amp; foul 
Name &amp; form 
Are all brought to an end. 
With the cessation of consciousness 
Each is here brought to an end.

That is, viññāṇassa nirodhena etth'etaṃ uparujjhati: With the cessation of the stationing of consciousness [i.e. viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā nirodhena] each is here brought to an end. Or as Ven. Ñāṇananda says:
The vacant gaze [of an arahant] is, in fact, not established anywhere (appatiṭṭham). It has no existence (appavattaṃ) and it is objectless (anārammaṇaṃ).
All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:43 pm
Title: Re: How common is stream entry?
Content:
Yes. Credentialism -- a worldly dhamma.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:43 am
Title: Re: I Believe in Literal Rebirth - Poll
Content:
Hi Pariyatti,

No, different Geoff.


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:12 am
Title: Re: I Believe in Kamma and its Effects - Poll
Content:
Indeed. This present life affords us a rare and precious opportunity to hear and practice the dhamma. AN 8.29 Akkhaṇa Sutta:
Bhikkhus, there are eight times, eight instances not suitable to lead the holy life. What eight?

Here, bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One, worthy, rightfully enlightened endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, the Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness and extinction, taught by the Well Gone One, is preached. This person is born in hell. Bhikkhus, this is the first unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

Again, bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One, worthy, rightfully enlightened endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, the Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness and extinction, taught by the Well Gone One, is preached. This person is born in the animal world. Bhikkhus, this is the second unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born in the sphere of ghosts ...

Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born as a certain god with long life ...

Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born to someone in the bordering states among not learned Barbarians, where bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay disciples male or female are not seen. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born to someone in the central states, he is with wrong view, with a perverted view- There are no results for giving gifts, there are no results for an offering, for a sacrifice. There are no results for good and evil actions. There is no this world, there is no other world. There is no mother, no father. There are no beings spontaneously arisen. In this world there are no recluses and Brahmins who have come to the right path and having realized by themselves declare it ... re ...

Again, bhikkhus, ... re ... this person is born to someone in the central states without wisdom, with saliva dripping, not able to discriminate between good and evil words to know something. Bhikkhus, this is the seventh unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

Again, bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One worthy and rightfully enlightened ... re ... Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness extinction preached by the Well Gone One is not preached. This person is born to someone in the central states wise, without saliva dripping, able to discriminate between good and evil words to know the meanings. Bhikkhus, this is the eighth unsuitable instance to lead the holy life.

Bhikkhus, there is one right instance to lead the holy life, the Thus Gone One, worthy, rightfully enlightened endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, the Teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed is born in the world. The Teaching leading to quietness and extinction, taught by the Well Gone One, is preached. This person is born to someone in the central states wise, without saliva dripping, able to discriminate between good and evil words to know the meanings. Bhikkhus, this is the only instance to lead the holy life.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:29 am
Title: Re: vimuttimagga
Content:
Hi JC &amp; all,

Not sure about when BPS will publish another edition of the old translation, but Ven. Ñāṇatusita (BPS editor) is working on a new translation which he says should be finished in the next year or two.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:05 am
Title: Re: I Believe in Literal Rebirth - Poll
Content:
Indeed. And if we ever need a bit of help motivating us to get to the cushion and remain there, the sutta-s offer us some skillful contemplations and themes for reflection:
There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five?

'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' This is the second fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' This is the third fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' This is the fourth fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' This is the fifth fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. [AN 5.57]


When this was said, the Blessed One addressed the monks. "Whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for a day &amp; night... for a day... for the interval that it takes to eat a meal... for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedlessly. They develop mindfulness of death slowly for the sake of ending the effluents.

"But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents. [AN 6.19]


This Dhamma is for one who wants little, not for one who wants much.

This Dhamma is for the contented, not for the discontented.

This Dhamma is for the secluded, not for one fond of society.

This Dhamma is for the energetic, not for the lazy.

This Dhamma is for the mindful, not for the unmindful.

This Dhamma is for the composed, not for the uncomposed.

This Dhamma is for the wise, not for the unwise.

This Dhamma is for one who is free from impediments, not for one who delights in impediments. [AN 8.30]

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:43 am
Title: Re: Experience (of?) Nibbana
Content:
Hi Mike &amp; all,

Nettippakaraṇa 4.42, which is the first of nine examples of “the mode of conveying ways of entry to the truths,” explains guidelines for how to comment upon the fruition attainments. A careful reading provides us with at least a conceptual map of the four fruition attainments, and some appropriate designations to use to describe them. First, the Netti cites the verse from Ud 7.1 Paṭhamalakuṇḍakabhaddiya Sutta, and then explains how this verse pertains to a non-learners liberation (asekhāvimutti), i.e. the arahant's fruition attainment, and then a learner’s liberation (sekhāvimutti), i.e. the first three fruition attainments, but specifically in terms of the fruition of stream entry:
Above, below, everywhere released, 
He does not see that “I am this.”
Thus liberated, he crosses the flood
Not crossed before, for no further renewal of existence.


[Non-learner’s liberation: Asekhāvimutti]

Above is the form element and the formless element. Below is the sensual desire element. Everywhere released is the non-learner’s liberation (asekhāvimutti) from the triple element [of existence]. That itself is the non-learner’s five faculties (pañcindriyāni: i.e. faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and discernment). This is the way of entry by faculties.

These same non-learner’s five faculties are knowledge (vijjā). With the arising of knowledge [there is] the cessation of ignorance; with the cessation of ignorance, the cessation of volitional fabrications; with the cessation of volitional fabrications, the cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, the cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form; the cessation of the six sense spheres; with cessation of the six sense spheres, the cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, the cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, the cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, the cessation of grasping; with the cessation of grasping, the cessation of becoming; with the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, aging and death cease, and [also] sorrow, grieving, pain, unhappiness, and despair; that is how there is the cessation to this whole aggregate of unsatisfactoriness. This is the way of entry by the aspects of dependent arising.

Those same non-learner’s five faculties are comprised within the three aggregates, namely the aggregate of ethical conduct (sīlakkhandha), the aggregate of concentration (samādhikkhandha), and the aggregate of discernment (paññākkhandha). This is the way of entry by aggregates.

Those same non-learner’s five faculties are included in fabrications. These fabrications, [which in this case are] free from mental outflows (āsavā) and are not factors of existence, are comprised within the dhamma element (dhammadhātu). This is the way of entry by elements.

That dhamma element is included in the dhamma sphere (dhammāyatana), which [in this case] is free from mental outflows and not a factor of existence. This is the way of entry by spheres.


[Learner’s liberation: Sekhāvimutti]

He does not see that “I am this.” This is the eradication of identity-view (sakkāyadiṭṭhi). That is the learner’s liberation (sekhāvimutti). That itself is the learner's five faculties. This is the way of entry by faculties.

Those same learner's five faculties are knowledge (vijjā). With the arising of knowledge [there is] the cessation of ignorance; with the cessation of ignorance, the cessation of volitional fabrications; thus the whole of dependent arising. This is the way of entry by the aspects of dependent arising.

That same knowledge is the discernment aggregate (paññākkhandha). This is the way of entry by aggregates.

That same knowledge is included in fabrications. These fabrications, [which in this case are] free from mental outflows and are not factors of existence, are comprised within the dhamma element (dhammadhātu). This is the way of entry by elements.

That dhamma element is included in the dhamma sphere (dhammāyatana), which [in this case] is free from mental outflows and not a factor of existence. This is the way of entry by spheres.

It is one liberated by means of the learner’s liberation and the non-learner’s liberation (sekkhāya ca vimuttiyā asekkhāya ca vimuttiyā) who crosses the flood not crossed before, for no further renewal of existence.

Also, in Nibbāna Sermon 15 Ven. Ñāṇananda states:
What actually happens in the attainment to the fruit of arahant-hood? The worldling discerns the world around him with the help of six narrow beams of light, namely the six sense-bases. When the superior lustre of wisdom arises, those six sense-bases go down. This cessation of the six sense bases could also be referred to as the cessation of name-and-form, nāmarūpanirodha, or the cessation of consciousness, viññāṇanirodha.

The cessation of the six sense-bases does not mean that one does not see anything. What one sees then is voidness. It is an in-‘sight’. He gives expression to it with the words suñño loko, “void is the world.” What it means is that all the sense objects, which the worldling grasps as real and truly existing, get penetrated through with wisdom and become non-manifest.

And from his Concept and Reality (p. 67):
With his penetrative insight the Arahant sees through the concepts. Now, an object of perception (ārammaṇa) for the worldling is essentially something that is brought into focus -- something he is looking at. For the Arahant, however, all concepts have become transparent to such a degree in that all-encompassing vision, that their boundaries together with their umbra and penumbra have yielded to the radiance of wisdom. This, then, is the significance of the word ‘anantaṃ’ (endless, infinite). Thus the paradoxically detached gaze of the contemplative sage as he looks through concepts is one which has no object (ārammaṇa) as the point of focus for the worldling to identify it with.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:15 pm
Title: Re: Buddhism, Religion?
Content:
I'll leave it up to you and others to delimit just what is or is not religious about the dhamma. I don't have an opinion one way or the other.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:53 am
Title: Re: Bhikkhu Ñanananda
Content:
Hi all,

Some of Ven. Ñāṇananda's books can be downloaded here: http://seeingthroughthenet.net/eng/gen. ... =other&amp;p=1

His Ideal Solitude: An Exposition on the Bhaddekaratta Sutta can be downloaded here: http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh188.pdf

Audio files of Ven. Ñāṇananda reading the first 25 of his Nibbāna Sermons (in English) can be downloaded here: http://seeingthroughthenet.net/eng/gen. ... cat=nn&amp;p=1

His Seeing Through: A Guide to Insight Meditation can be downloaded as a .doc file here: http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/SEEING%20THROUGH.doc (You will need to have the Times_CSX+ fonts installed in your operating system fonts folder for the diacritics of this .doc file to display properly. They can be downloaded here: http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/clm_main1.asp.)

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:49 pm
Title: Re: Buddhism, Religion?
Content:
Yes, seriously. There is absolutely no call for self-righteous indignation, aggressive sarcasm, and belligerence here on Dhamma Wheel Thaibebop.


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:29 pm
Title: Re: Buddhism, Religion?
Content:
There is no good reason to dismiss this possibility. A self-limiting approach will only yield (i) limited results, or (ii) no results.

Moreover, since there is no historical record whatsoever of an atheistic dhammavinaya, I would suggest that your atheistic, rationalist-only buddha is a myth of your own creation.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:50 am
Title: Re: Buddhism, Religion?
Content:
Hi Thaibebop,

How do you know that the Buddha didn't understand and teach about rebirth based upon his own direct knowledge of former existences?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:51 pm
Title: Re: the five aggregates
Content:
Good reply Jason.  

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:12 am
Title: Re: Nondualism
Content:
Hi Peter,

That was "realist," not "realistic." And was in reference to the commentarial conflation of epistemology and ontology with regard to nibbāna. Ven. Ñāṇananda:
More often than otherwise, commentarial interpretations of Nibbāna leave room for some subtle craving for existence, bhavataṇhā.... It conjures up a place where there is no sun and no moon, a place that is not a place. Such confounding trends have crept in probably due to the very depth of this Dhamma.

But each to their own.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:09 am
Title: Re: Nondualism
Content:
Personally, I don't find either the realist inclinations of the classical Theravāda or the dialectical bent of Nāgārjuna to be of much value, or in keeping with the soteriological teachings of the Pāḷi dhammavinaya.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:11 am
Title: Re: Nondualism
Content:
Pretty simple really: the three N's:

1. Not wavering (i.e. the development of sīla)
2. Non-distraction (i.e. the development of samādhi)
3. Not grasping (i.e. the development of paññā)

Ajahn Chah explains the development of the latter two quite nicely in the following:
If the breath is coarse, we know that it's coarse, if it's subtle we know that it's subtle. As it becomes increasingly fine we keep following it, while simultaneously awakening the mind. Eventually the breath disappears altogether and all that remains is the feeling of wakefulness. This is called meeting the Buddha. We have that clear wakefulness that is called "Buddho," the one who knows, the one who is awake, the radiant one. It is meeting and dwelling with the Buddha, with knowledge and clarity. For it was only the historical flesh-and-blood Buddha that entered parinibbana; the true Buddha, the Buddha that is clear radiant knowing, we can still experience and attain today, and when we do so the heart is one.

So let go, put everything down, everything except the knowing. Don't be fooled if visions or sounds arise in your mind during meditation. Put them all down. Don't take hold of anything at all. Just stay with this non-dual awareness. Don't worry about the past or the future, just be still and you will reach the place where there's no advancing, no retreating and no stopping, where there's nothing to grasp at or cling to. Why? Because there's no self, no "me" or "mine." It's all gone. The Buddha taught us to be emptied of everything in this way, not to carry anything with us. To know, and having known, let go.

Realizing the Dhamma, the path to freedom from the round of birth and death, is a job that we all have to do alone.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:47 pm
Title: Re: Is dukkha just psychological?
Content:
Hi Porpoise &amp; all,

All feeling (vedanā) is designated as mental (cetasika; cf. MN 44). But the sutta-s differentiate between pleasure &amp; pain (sukha &amp; dukkha) born of body-contact (kāyasamphassaja) on the one hand (cf. SN 48.37), and happiness &amp; unhappiness (somanassa &amp; domanassa) born of mind-contact (manosamphassaja) on the other (cf. SN 48.37). A noble disciple still experiences bodily pain but no mental distress because of it (cf. SN 36.6: "He feels one feeling -- a bodily one, not a mental one.").

Translating dukkha exclusively as either "pain" or "suffering" in the context of dukkha ariyasacca isn't very accurate. A better translation is "unsatisfactoriness." This unsatisfactoriness is to be fully understood (dukkha pariññeyya), and consists of:

Dukkhadukkhatā: the unsatisfactoriness of pain
  jāti: birth
 jarā: aging
 byādhi: illness
 maraṇa: death
 soka: sorrow
 parideva: grieving
 dukkha: pain
 domanassa: unhappiness
 upāyāsā: despair
Vipariṇāmadukkhatā: the unsatisfactoriness of change
  appiyehi sampayogo: association with what is unpleasant
 piyehi vippayogo: separation from what is pleasant
 yampiccha na labhati tampi: not getting what is wanted
Saṅkhāradukkhatā: the unsatisfactoriness of fabrications
  pañcupādānakkhandhā: the five aggregates of grasping
MN 141 Saccavibhaṅga Sutta gives an analysis of the different designations of dukkha listed here in the context of the first noble truth. Among those designations are:
And what is pain (dukkha)? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.

And what is unhappiness (domanassa)? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called unhappiness.

Itivuttaka 44 tells us that a living arahant still experiences pain. From the above we can infer that the pain experienced by the living arahant who has realized nibbāna (i.e. saupādisesa nibbānadhātu: nibbāna element with fuel remaining) is bodily pain only. The complete cessation of all dukkha whatsoever only occurs when there is no more "fuel" remaining (i.e. anupādisesa nibbānadhātu: nibbāna element with no fuel remaining).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:59 am
Title: Re: Nondualism
Content:
Indeed. Nailed a complete misrepresentation of Indian Mahāyāna.


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:18 am
Title: Re: Nondualism
Content:
Hi Matt &amp; all,

Mādhyamaka arose as a critique and corrective of Sarvāstivāda tenets. Because the Sarvāstivāda was a Nikāya school which didn’t accept the authority of any non-canonical sūtra-s, the Indian mādhyamika authors cited canonical statements which are common to the discourses of the Sanskrit āgama-s and the Pāḷi nikāya-s as scriptural support for their critiques. Their critique was never meant to refute the Pāḷi sutta-s and was never intended as a critique of the early Pāḷi Abhidhamma Piṭaka.

As for how the two Indian Mahāyāna traditions (i.e. Mādhyamaka and Yogācāra) can be misrepresented there is a review of Ven. Bodhi's paper Dhamma and Non-duality in this post.

A brief comparison of a few verses from Nāgārjuna with the Pāḷi Nikāya-s can be found in this post.

And here are some excerpts from the canonical Paṭisambhidāmagga Suññakathā (Khuddakanikāya):
What is emptiness in [relation to] change? 

Born, form is empty of self-nature (sabhāvena suñña); disappeared, form is both changed and empty. 

Born, feeling is empty of self-nature; disappeared, feeling is both changed and empty. 

Born, perception is empty of self-nature; disappeared, perception is both changed and empty. 

Born, fabrications are empty of self-nature; disappeared, fabrications are both changed and empty. 

Born, consciousness is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, the eye is empty ... the ear is empty ... the nose is empty ... the tongue is empty ... the body is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, forms are empty ... sounds are empty ... odors are empty ... flavors are empty ... tactile sensations are empty of self-nature; disappeared, they are both changed and empty. 

Born, visual consciousness is empty ... auditory consciousness is empty ... olfactory consciousness is empty ... gustatory consciousness is empty ... tactile consciousness is empty ... mental consciousness is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, eye-contact is empty ... ear-contact is empty ... nose-contact is empty ... tongue-contact is empty ... body-contact is empty ... mind-contact is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, feeling born of eye-contact is empty ... feeling born of ear-contact is empty ... feeling born of nose-contact is empty ... feeling born of tongue-contact is empty ... feeling born of body-contact is empty ... feeling born of mind-contact is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, perception of forms is empty ... perception of sounds is empty ... perception of odors is empty ... perception of flavors is empty ... perception of tactile sensations is empty ... perception of mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, volitional intention pertaining to forms is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to sounds is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to odors is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to flavors is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to tactile sensations is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, craving for forms is empty ... craving for sounds is empty ... craving for odors is empty ... craving for flavors is empty ... craving for tactile sensations is empty ... craving for mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, directed thought pertaining to forms is empty ... directed thought pertaining to sounds is empty ... directed thought pertaining to odors is empty ... directed thought pertaining to flavors is empty ... directed thought pertaining to tactile sensations is empty ... directed thought pertaining to mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, examination pertaining to forms is empty ... examination pertaining to sounds is empty ... examination pertaining to odors is empty ... examination pertaining to flavors is empty ... examination pertaining to tactile sensations is empty ... examination pertaining to mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

Born, the eye sensory sphere is empty ... the form sensory sphere is empty ... the ear sensory sphere is empty ... the sound sensory sphere is empty ... the nose sensory sphere is empty ... the odor sensory sphere is empty ... the tongue sensory sphere is empty ... the flavor sensory sphere is empty ... the body sensory sphere is empty ... the tactile sensation sensory sphere is empty ... the mind sensory sphere is empty ... the mental phenomena sensory sphere is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, the eye element is empty ... the form element is empty ... the visual consciousness element is empty ... the ear element is empty ... the sound element is empty ... the auditory consciousness element is empty ... the nose element is empty ... the odor element is empty ... the olfactory consciousness element is empty ... the tongue element is empty ... the flavor element is empty ... the gustatory consciousness element is empty ... the body element is empty ... the tactile sensation element is empty ... the tactile consciousness element is empty ... the mind element is empty ... the mental phenomena element is empty ... the mental consciousness element is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, the sensual desire element is empty ... the form element is empty ... the formless element is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

Born, ignorance is empty ... fabrications are empty ... consciousness is empty ... name and form are empty ... the sixfold sensory spheres are empty ... contact is empty ... feeling is empty ... craving is empty ... grasping is empty ... becoming is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty. 

What is supreme emptiness? 

This dhamma is supreme, this dhamma is superior, this dhamma is excellent: the calming of all fabrications, the release of all acquisitions, the exhaustion of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna. This is supreme emptiness. 

What is internal emptiness? 

Internally the eye is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the ear is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the nose is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the tongue is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the body is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the mind is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

This is internal emptiness. 

What is external emptiness? 

Externally form is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally sound is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally odor is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally flavor is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally tactile sensation is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Externally mental phenomena are empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

This is external emptiness. 

What is emptiness both ways? 

Internally the eye and externally form are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the ear and externally sound are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the nose and externally odor are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the tongue and externally flavor are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the body and externally tactile sensation are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

Internally the mind and externally mental phenomena are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change. 

This is emptiness both ways. 

What is the ultimate meaning (paramattha) of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware? 

Here, through renunciation one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of sensual desire; through nonaggression one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of aggression; through perception of light one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of dullness and drowsiness; through nondistraction one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of agitation; through understanding phenomena one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of doubt; through knowledge one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of ignorance; through gladness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of boredom.

Through the first jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the hindrances; through the second jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of directed thought and examination; through the third jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of rapture; through the fourth jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of pleasure; through the attainment of the sphere of infinite space one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perceptions of form, perceptions of resistance, and perceptions of diversity; through the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perception of the sphere of infinite space; through the attainment of the sphere of nothingness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perception of the sphere of infinite consciousness; through the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-nonperception one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perception of the sphere of nothingness. 

Through the contemplation of impermanence one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of permanence; through the contemplation of unsatisfactoriness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of satisfactoriness; through the contemplation of not-self one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of self; through the contemplation of dispassion one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of delight; through the contemplation of fading away one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of greed; through the contemplation of cessation one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of arising; through the contemplation of relinquishment one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of grasping; through the contemplation of decay one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of compactness; through the contemplation of fall one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of accumulation; through the contemplation of change one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of everlastingness; through the contemplation of signlessness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of signs; through the contemplation of desirelessness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of desire; through the contemplation of emptiness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation; through the clear seeing of phenomena that is higher discernment one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to grasping at a core; through gnosis and seeing one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to delusion; through the contemplation of [the] danger [of fabrications] one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to reliance [on fabrications]; through the contemplation of reflection one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of non-reflection; through the contemplation of turning away one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to bondage. 

Through the stream-entry path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of defilements associated with wrong view; through the once-returner path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of gross defilements; through the non-returner path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of secondary defilements; through the arahant path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of all defilements [i.e. ignorance]. 

Or through the nibbāna element (nibbānadhātu) without any grasping remaining for one who is fully aware this occurrence of eye ends and no further occurrence of eye arises; this occurrence of ear ends and no further occurrence of ear arises; this occurrence of nose ends and no further occurrence of nose arises; this occurrence of tongue ends and no further occurrence of tongue arises; this occurrence of body ends and no further occurrence of body arises; this occurrence of mind ends and no further occurrence of mind arises. 

This is the ultimate meaning of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:11 am
Title: Re: Nondualism
Content:
Hi Mike,

You could. But first of all you would have to establish that I hold a "non-dual vision," whatever that is???

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:19 pm
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
Hi pt1,

I wouldn't (if you're referring to the theory of momentariness that is). I attempted to articulate why in another previous post of this same thread.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:09 pm
Title: Re: Enlightenment and the aggregates
Content:
Hi P,

Yes. A living arahant still has sense faculties. Thus they still experience pleasure and pain (only bodily pain though). This is saupādisesa nibbānadhātu (nibbāna element with fuel remaining). But this doesn't mean that they can be measured or classified in terms of the five aggregates. For the arahant there is no passion for the nutriments of food, contact, intention, or consciousness (cf. SN 12.64).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:45 pm
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
Hi Bodom,

Sorry for the confusion. That is what I meant.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:16 pm
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
Inference is employed to discern the impermanence, etc., of whatever is not present. Whatever is present is discerned as either arising, altering while persisting, or passing away. AN 3.47:
Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:05 pm
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
The four jhāna-s play an essential role in the development of the noble eightfold path according to the discourses. They are given as the definition of right concentration (sammāsamādhi), the training of heightened mind (adhicittasikkhā), as well as the faculty of concentration (samādhindriya) and the strength of concentration (samādhibala) as practiced by a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). 

According to the sutta-s there can be no awakening without mastery of at least the first jhāna.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:27 am
Title: Re: Enlightenment and the aggregates
Content:
Hi P &amp; all,

Upon awakening one cannot be measured or classified in terms of the aggregates. For example, SN 22.36: Bhikkhu Sutta:
f one doesn’t stay obsessed with form, lord, that’s not what one is measured (anumīyati) by. Whatever one isn’t measured by, that’s not how one is classified (saṅkha).

If one doesn’t stay obsessed with feeling... apperception... fabrications...

If one doesn’t stay obsessed with consciousness, that’s not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn’t measured by, that’s not how one is classified.


MN 72: Aggivaccha Sutta:
Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form (rūpasaṅkhayavimutto), Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom (gambhīro, appameyyo, duppariyogāḷho), like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does &amp; does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.

Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...

Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness (viññāṇasaṅkhayavimutto), Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom (gambhīro, appameyyo, duppariyogāḷho), like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does &amp; does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.


MN 22: Alagaddūpama Sutta:
Monks, when the gods with Indra, with Brahmā and with Pajāpati seek a monk who is thus liberated in mind, they do not find anything of which they could say: “The tathāgata’s consciousness is dependent (nissita) on this.” Why? A tathāgata, I declare, is untraceable (ananuvejja) here and now (diṭṭheva).


Dhammapada, v. 93:
Effluents ended, independent of nutriment, their pasture – emptiness and freedom without sign: their trail, like that of birds through space, can’t be traced.


SN 35.188 (CDB 35.229): Dutiyasamudda Sutta:
For whomever passion, aggression, and ignorance have faded away– 
He has crossed over this ocean which is hard to cross
With its dangerous sharks, demons, and waves.

He has overcome attachment, conquered death, and is without acquisitions; 
Has abandoned suffering, for the sake of no further existence. 
“Gone out,” he cannot be measured (na pamāṇameti),
I say that he has bewildered the king of death.


In a number of sutta-s (e.g. S iv 119, S iv 186, S iv 189, S iv 199, &amp; M i 270) an arahant’s mind is designated as a “measureless mind” (appamāṇacetasa → being free from any sort of measuring → pamāṇa). Elsewhere it is designated as “unestablished consciousness” (appatiṭṭha viññāṇa). Yet another designation is “featureless consciousness” (anidassana viññāṇa). All of these designations refer to the liberated mind “abiding independent, not clinging to anything in the world” (yāvadeva ñāṇamattāya paṭissatimattāya anissito ca viharati na ca kiñci loke upādiyati).

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:23 am
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
Hi LE,

Yeah, Zhiyi certainly emphasized dhyāna as well as ethical conduct (śīla), etc. For the development of dhyāna, he suggested a 90 day period of practicing “constantly-sitting samādhi.” His Mohe Zhiguan describes the 90 day practice period:
One should constantly sit and should avoid walking, standing, or lying down. Although it is possible [to do this practice] in a place with other people, it is better to be alone. Sit alone in a quiet room, or in an open and peaceful place [outside], apart from all the tumult and clamor [of daily life]. Sit on a coarse cot, without any other seats [or other clutter] by your side. Ninety days make up one period. Sit properly in a cross-legged position, with your neck and backbone perfectly straight; do not move or waver or stoop or lean on anything. While sitting, vow to yourself that your ribs will not [so much as] touch the poles, let alone that you would sprawl [face-up] like a corpse, prance about, or stand up, except for walking meditation, eating, and going to the toilet. Face in the direction of a single Buddha [image], sitting erect face to face [with the Buddha], continuously for a fixed time without faltering.

“Just sitting” 専坐 is what should be done, and one should not do anything that hinders this purpose. Do not deceive the Buddha; do not burden your mind [with extraneous distractions]; do not fool [other] sentient beings.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:21 am
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
Hi DF,

There can certainly be consciousness of the object, as well as feeling and apperception. Even though that apperception is rooted in ignorance, there is still consciousness of an object, which is recognized/identified by apperception.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:11 am
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
No doubt essential at the higher stages; probably not necessary for stream entry. Of course, even as worldlings we can recognize the futility and hollowness of craving, grasping, and becoming from time to time, but without highly developed mindfulness and full awareness it is fleeting and usually the result of buyers remorse.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:49 am
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
Hi all,

In his paper Dhamma and Non-duality Ven. Bodhi begins his critique of the Mahāyāna schools by asserting that:
The Mahayana schools, despite their great differences, concur in upholding a thesis that, from the Theravada point of view, borders on the outrageous. This is the claim that there is no ultimate difference between samsara and Nirvana, defilement and purity, ignorance and enlightenment.

This is simply an inaccurate appraisal of the two Indian Mahāyāna traditions (i.e. Mādhyamaka and Yogācāra). It is one thing to understand that saṃsāra and nirvāna are not ultimately established as independent ontological realities, and are therefore nominal designations (prajñapti); it is quite another to phrase it in terms implying an absolute unity, as Ven. Bodhi does, and then draw out the unwanted consequences of this characterture. 

As the 8th century Indian mādhyamika Kamalaśīla states in his Bhāvanākrama-s, awakening depends upon differentiating and engaging in specific, unerring, and complete causes and conditions:
It is impossible for omniscience [i.e. enlightenment] to arise without causes since this would entail the absurd consequence whereby everyone could be omniscient all the time. If it could arise independently, it could exist everywhere without obstructions, and again everybody would be omniscient. Moreover, all functional things depend exclusively on causes because they only occur for certain persons at certain times. And so, because omniscience does not arise for everybody everywhere at all times, it most certainly depends upon causes and conditions. Also, from among those causes and conditions, one should rely on unerring and complete causes.

There is no reification of an “ultimate” in Indian Mādhyamaka and Yogācāra. And the path structure of these two systems necessitate an accurate differentiation of defilement and purity, ignorance and enlightenment. There is no path without such differentiation.

Moreover, Ven. Bodhi’s assumption that the transcendence of dualities “from the Theravāda point of view, borders on the outrageous” and that according to the Theravāda view “wisdom must respect phenomena in their precise particularity” is also questionable. For example, in The Mind Stilled Ven. Ñāṇananda, a Theravāda bhikkhu, states:
The transcendence of relativity involves freedom from the duality in worldly concepts such as 'good' and 'evil'. The concept of a 'farther shore' stands relative to the concept of a 'hither shore'. The point of these discourses is to indicate that there is a freedom from worldly conceptual proliferations based on duality and relativity.

And in his Concept and Reality (pp. 55–56), Ven. Ñāṇananda says:
Concepts – be they material or spiritual, worldly or transcendental – are not worthy of being grasped dogmatically. They are not to be treated as ultimate categories and are to be discarded in the course of the spiritual endeavour.... That the emancipated sage (muni) no longer clings even to such concepts as “nibbāna” or “detachment” (virāga) is clearly indicated in the following verse of the Sutta Nipāta:

“For the Brahmin (the Muni) who has transcended all bounds, there is nothing that is grasped by knowing or by seeing. He is neither attached to attachment nor is he attached to detachment. In this world, he has grasped nothing as the highest.” [Sn 795]

Ven. Bodhi repeatedly casts the goal of “the non-dual systems” in terms of a realization of a “final unity,” a “metaphysical unity,” an “all-embracing absolute,” an “all-embracing identification with the All,” and an “absolute or fundamental ground.” For example:
For those of such a bent, the dissolution of dualities in a final unity will always appear more profound and complete.... For the non-dual systems, all dualities are finally transcended in the realization of the non-dual reality, the Absolute or fundamental ground.

For the Indian Mahāyāna schools this is incorrect. There is no “final unity” or “absolute or fundamental ground” to be realized in either of the two Indian Mahāyāna traditions (i.e. Mādhyamaka and Yogācāra). In both traditions a mindstream is designated as an individual momentary continuum, and this pertains to buddhas as well as deluded sentient beings.

Ven. Bodhi goes on to opine that:
Since, for the non-dual systems, distinctions are ultimately unreal, meditation practice is not explicitly oriented toward the removal of mental defilements and the cultivation of virtuous states of mind.

Also incorrect. Both Mahāyāna Mādhyamaka and Yogācāra path structures involve employing all the necessary causes and conditions for the attainment of awakening. This means engaging all thirty-seven factors of awakening, which includes penetrating the four noble truths upon attaining the path of seeing. In addition, for the boddhisattva this necessarily involves mastering not only the four dhyāna-s, but also the five mundane higher gnoses, the four formless attainments, and the cessation attainment. This is because the bodhisattva has to develop experiential knowledge of all paths in order to eventually instruct others, and also because the bodhisattva’s aspiration is to attain the perfect awakening of a buddha, which includes mastery of all meditative attainments. To suggest that one can penetrate the four noble truths and master all of these meditative attainments and eventually realize full awakening without the “removal of mental defilements and the cultivation of virtuous states of mind” is unsustainable.

That mastery of the dhyāna-s, etc., was of significant importance from the beginnings of the Mahāyāna is evident from reading the early Mahāyāna sūtra-s, which go to some length to praise forest seclusion and solitude. And that these passages remained in high esteem throughout the Indian Mahāyāna traditions can be seen from the fact that they were still being quoted in practice texts by the likes of Śāntideva and Vimalamitra many centuries later.

Ven. Bodhi also states that:
Nibbana, even in the early texts, is definitely cast as an ultimate reality and not merely as an ethical or psychological state....

Here we get a whiff of why the Mahāyāna Mādhyamaka and Yogācāra systems are so objectionable to Ven. Bodhi’s realist abhidhammika sensibilities. For Ven. Bodhi nibbāna is necessarily an “ultimate reality” independent of cognition. Elsewhere Ven. Bodhi expands on his view of this matter, which further demonstrates a conflation of epistemology and ontology:
Nibbana is not only the destruction of defilements and the end of samsara but a reality transcendent to the entire world of mundane experience, a reality transcendent to all the realms of phenomenal existence....

[T]he Nibbana element remains the same, no matter whether many or few people attain Nibbana....

Nibbana is an actual reality and not the mere destruction of defilements or the cessation of existence. Nibbana is unconditioned, without any origination and is timeless.

Remedying this confusion and conflation of the epistemological and ontological was one of Nāgārjuna’s primary concerns. And not only Nāgārjuna. Throughout The Mind Stilled as well as his other writings, Ven. Ñāṇananda has addressed this issue. For example:
To project Nibbāna into a distance and to hope that craving will be destroyed only on seeing it, is something like trying to build a staircase to a palace one cannot yet see. In fact this is a simile which the Buddha had used in his criticism of the Brahmin's point of view....

Lust, hate, delusion - all these are fires. Therefore Nibbāna may be best rendered by the word extinction. When once the fires are extinguished, what more is needed? But unfortunately Venerable Buddhaghosa was not prepared to appreciate this point of view. In his Visuddhimagga as well as in the commentaries Sāratthappakāsinī and Sammohavinodanī, he gives a long discussion on Nibbāna in the form of an argument with an imaginary heretic. Some of his arguments are not in keeping with either the letter or the spirit of the Dhamma.

First of all he gets the heretic to put forward the idea that the destruction of lust, hate and delusion is Nibbāna. Actually the heretic is simply quoting the Buddha word, for in the Nibbānasutta of the Asaṅkhatasaṃyutta the destruction of lust, hate and delusion is called Nibbāna: Rāgakkhayo, dosakkhayo, mohakkhayo - idaṃ vuccati nibbānaṃ.

The words rāgakkhaya, dosakkhaya and mohakkhaya together form a synonym of Nibbāna, but the commentator interprets it as three synonyms. Then he argues out with the imaginary heretic that if Nibbāna is the extinguishing of lust it is something common even to the animals, for they also extinguish their fires of lust through enjoyment of the corresponding objects of sense. This argument ignores the deeper sense of the word extinction, as it is found in the Dhamma....

It seems that the deeper implications of the word Nibbāna have been obscured by a set of arguments which are rather misleading....

More often than otherwise, commentarial interpretations of Nibbāna leave room for some subtle craving for existence, bhavataṇhā.... It conjures up a place where there is no sun and no moon, a place that is not a place. Such confounding trends have crept in probably due to the very depth of this Dhamma.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:14 am
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
I think Nāgārjuna would agree with this.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:42 pm
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
Hi Eric,

As Tilt suggests, Conze believed that the Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra-s are referring to a monistic Absolute. Anyone well trained in the Indo-Tibetan tradition cannot support such an interpretation. Also, when approached through mādhyamaka exegesis the Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra-s are entirely coherent and any supposed paradox or contradiction is merely superficial.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:35 pm
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
Hi Sylvester and all,

It may be worth citing a few verses from the Yuktiṣaṣṭika and see if there is any canonical support for these verses:
4. One is not freed by existence;
One does not transcend samsara through non-existence;
It’s through understanding existence and non-existence
That the great beings are liberated.

5. Those who do not see ultimate reality
Grasp at samsara and nirvana;
But those who see ultimate reality possess
No pretentions of world and its’ transcendence.

6. Both samsara and nirvana,
Neither of these two exists;
The thorough understanding of cyclic existence-
This is referred to as “nirvana.”

35. Inasmuch as the Conquerors have stated
Nirvana is the sole truth,
What learned person would imagine
That the rest is not false?

Regarding verse four, there is Ud. 3.10:
Whatever ascetics or brahmans say that emancipation from existence is by means of existence, all of them are not liberated from existence, I say. And whatever ascetics or brahmans say that escape from existence is by means of non-existence, all of them have not escaped from existence, I say.

Regarding verses five and six, there is Dhp 385:
For whom there is neither a far shore,
Nor a near shore, nor both,
Who is undistressed and unfettered,
Him I call a Brahmin.

And Sn 1.1:
That bhikkhu who has not found any essence in existences,
As one searching among fig trees (does not find) a flower,
Leaves this shore and the far shore
As a snake leaves its old worn out skin.

Ven. Ñāṇananda comments on this verse:
The arahant has abandoned his attachment to existence. As such, he is free from the bondage of those conjoined terms in worldly usage. So the arahant looks at the worldly usage in the same way as a snake would turn back and look at the worn-out skin he has sloughed off....

The monk, it seems, gives up not only this shore, but the other shore as well, even as the snake sloughs off its worn out skin. That skin has served its purpose, but now it is redundant. So it is sloughed off.... The transcendence of relativity involves freedom from the duality in worldly concepts such as 'good' and 'evil'. The concept of a 'farther shore' stands relative to the concept of a 'hither shore'. The point of these discourses is to indicate that there is a freedom from worldly conceptual proliferations based on duality and relativity....

The term orapāraṃ, too, has many connotations. It stands for the duality implicit in such usages as the 'internal' and the 'external', 'one's own' and 'another's', as well as 'this shore' and the 'farther shore'. It is compared here to the worn out skin of a snake. It is worn out by transcending the duality characteristic of linguistic usage through wisdom. Why the Buddha first hesitated to teach this Dhamma was the difficulty of making the world understand. Perhaps it was the conviction that the world could easily be misled by those limitations in the linguistic medium. We make these few observations in order to draw attention to the relativity underlying such terms as 'this shore' and the 'other shore' and to show how Nibbāna transcends even that dichotomy.

And regarding verse thirty-five, there is MN 140:
His release, being founded on truth, does not fluctuate, for whatever is deceptive is false; Unbinding -- the undeceptive -- is true. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for truth, for this -- Unbinding, the undeceptive -- is the highest noble truth.

And Sn 3.12:
Entrenched in name and form,
They conceive that “This is true.”

In whatever way (worldlings) conceive it,
It turns out other than that.
For that is what is false about it.
Whatever is transitory certainly has a false nature.

But nibbāna does not have a false nature.
That the noble ones truly know.
Through fully comprehending the truth,
They are without hunger, quenched.

In Nibbāna Sermon 08, Ven. Ñāṇananda comments:
[A practitioner] will realize that, as in the case of the dumb show, he is involved with things that do not really exist. This amounts to an understanding that the factors of the name group are dependent on the form group, and vice versa. Seeing the reciprocal relationship between name-and-form, he is disinclined to dabble in concepts or gulp down a dose of prescriptions. If form is dependent on name, and name is dependent on form, both are void of essence. What is essential here, is the very understanding of essencelessness.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:16 pm
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
Which verse of the Yuktiṣaṣṭika are you referring to Sylvester?


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:32 am
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
Hi Sylvester, 

His critique of “all Mahāyāna schools” necessarily includes both Indian Mādhyamaka and Yogācāra since these are the two Indian schools which are the sources of all Mahāyāna exegesis. And his critique is equally problematic in regard to Yogācāra if one wishes to approach Yogācāra on its own terms. The ālayavijñāna is a deluded individual momentary continuum which ceases upon awakening. For an arahant this is the end.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:12 am
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
You want me to step into that cyber minefield on an internet forum? In the words of Bartleby, “I would prefer not to.”

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:11 pm
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
The sayings attributed to Sengcan and Huineng don't represent Indian mādhyamaka or Indian yogācāra in any way whatsoever. The 8th century Indian mādhyamika Kamalaśīla went to some length to show that such views aren't compatible with the writings of Nāgārjuna, et al. For example, in his Bhāvanākrama-s he states:
It is impossible for omniscience [i.e. enlightenment] to arise without causes since this would entail the absurd consequence whereby everyone could be omniscient all the time. If it could arise independently, it could exist everywhere without obstructions, and again everybody would be omniscient. Moreover, all functional things depend exclusively on causes because they only occur for certain persons at certain times. And so, because omniscience does not arise for everybody everywhere at all times, it most certainly depends upon causes and conditions.

Also, from among those causes and conditions, one should rely on unerring and complete causes. If one engages in erroneous causes, even exerting oneself for a very long time, the desired fruition will not be obtained. For example, it would be like milking a cow's horn. Furthermore, an effect will not arise if all of its causes are not practiced. If a seed or any other cause is missing, then the result, such as a sprout, will not arise. Therefore, someone seeking a particular result should develop its unerring and complete causes and conditions.

Indian mādhyamaka and yogācāra can't be conflated with Chinese Chan. For the authors of these two Indian Mahāyāna traditions, it is impossible to do away with the employment of conventional designations. This would amount to doing away with the thirty-seven factors of awakening, i.e. the entire path. And according to the Indian schools, all of these factors have to be successfully employed for one to attain awakening. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:22 pm
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
Hi Peter,

The point is simply this: If one is going to critique Indian mādhyamaka then one necessarily has to do so by approaching mādhyamaka on its own terms. Failure to do so just amounts to fallacious argumentation.

This doesn't mean that one needs to refer to Nāgārjuna, et al, in order to critique post-canonical Theravāda interpretations of the Pāḷi sutta-s. Ven. K. Ñāṇananda has shown that this can be done by relying on the sutta-s themselves without reference to any later hermeneutics.

And BTW, Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche's understanding of mādhyamaka is based on a controversial 14th century Tibetan interpretation of Nāgārjuna, et al. Whatever relevance this may have within the thought-world of Tibetan Buddhism, it can't be taken as an accurate interpretation of the writings of the historical 2nd century CE Nāgārjuna, or Āryadeva, Buddhapālita, Candrakīrti, Śāntideva, etc..

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:34 am
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
I don't belong to any Mahāyāna forums. And there is no such thing as "the Theravāda view." There are many examples, both historical and modern, of ppl who consider themselves to be very orthodox who disagree with others who consider themselves to be very orthodox. Not to mention the wide range of modern Theravāda teachers who maintain quite divergent views.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:02 am
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
SN 12.15 Kaccānagotta Sutta represents the mādhyamaka view par excellence. Anyone who doesn't understand this isn't in any position to comment on mādhyamaka nonduality.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:32 am
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
Straw man argumentation has nothing whatsoever to do with pragmatism. And if you think that Theravāda commentary doesn't veer into "abstract surmising" I would suggest that you haven't looked closely enough.

Moreover, the difficulty with any modern misrepresentation -- be it Theravāda or Mahāyāna -- is that it retards the possibility of meaningful Theravāda Mahāyāna dialogue. This may seem utterly unimportant to you Peter, and that's fine, but that doesn't make it unimportant to others. It simply isn't excusable for any modern post-secondary educated western teacher to continue to promote inaccurate appraisals of other traditions. And this is equally true of any modern western Mahāyāna teachers who misrepresent the Pāḷi Nikāya-s or the Theravāda commentarial tradition. It's unacceptable.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:53 pm
Title: Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism
Content:
Mādhyamaka doesn’t confuse or conflate epistemology and ontology.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:13 am
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
Hi dhamma follower,

As long as there is contact, feeling and apperception arise together with consciousness. One can refine apperception and eventually discern the empty, mirage-like nature of apperception and thereby realize dispassion towards empirical cognition and liberation from the entire game of empirical cognition; but until one has done so all experiences are filtered through apperception and there is no possibility of "direct experience" unmediated by apperception.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:28 am
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
Ven. Yuttadhammo,

That's an admirable intention. And if you find the Visuddhimagga helpful then that's all to the good. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:54 pm
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
Hi dhamma follower,

If you think so and consider it to be a useful representation of your own experiential cognitive processes, then it's helpful to that extent. But this doesn't mean that it isn't an interpretation.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:42 am
Title: Re: Samatha v. vipassana?
Content:
I would suggest that there are no "things," merely processes.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:50 pm
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
Hi Sylvester,

No offense whatsoever. It has been a good discussion. 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:16 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
Sounds good.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:18 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
And as I’ve said before, I’m of the view that sense objects are neutral, but kāmaguṇa-s are any sense objects which one considers to be “agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing.” The inner felt-sense of nirāmisa pītisukha which arises in jhāna is of a completely different kind. For one thing it doesn’t arise in dependence upon external sensory impingement.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:22 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
If sāmisa sukha is present is it accurate or advisable to suggest that the practitioner’s “mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, &amp; indulges in its perception of wilderness” (araññasaññāya cittaṃ pakkhandati pasīdati santiṭṭhati adhimuccati)? Especially in light of the above injunction from SN 47.6, and also MN 66 which informs us that any sukha and somanassa that arises dependent upon the kāmaguṇa-s is not to be cultivated or developed, rather it is to be feared:
Now, any pleasure &amp; happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared.

And also SN 35.115:
There are forms, monks, cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. If a monk relishes them, welcomes them, &amp; remains fastened to them, he is said to be a monk fettered to forms cognizable by the eye. He has gone over to Mara's camp; he has come under Mara's power. The Evil One can do with him as he wills.

Now, there are forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. If a monk does not relish them, welcome them, or remain fastened to them, he is said to be a monk freed from forms cognizable by the eye. He has not gone over to Mara's camp; he has not come under Mara's power. The Evil One cannot do with him as he wills.


I’m wondering why you find in necessary to maintain that all visible forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects are kāmaguṇa-s? Given that SN 3.12 tells us that:
Those same forms... sounds... odors... flavors... tactual objects that are agreeable to one person, great king, are disagreeable to another.

Is there something intrinsic to all visible forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects which binds the mind? In your view, what is it about all visible forms, sounds, odors, flavors, and tactual objects that is “agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing” and therefore requires all of them to be kāmaguṇa-s?

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:39 pm
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
Subjective idealism isn’t applicable either. But this is beyond the scope of the present discussion.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:02 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
Hi Sylvester,

Neither of those statements entails an "idealist model." 

Moreover, it has been shown that the discourses differentiate between the kāmaguṇa-s and the four satipaṭṭhāna-s, and also that kāyasamphassa vedanā is experienced in jhāna. You have yet to cite one textual source which informs us that the body is a kāmaguṇa or that kāyasamphassa vedanā is not dependent on body phassa.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:30 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
Again, either the intentional misrepresentation of another's position and therefore attempted misdirection, or a complete lack of understanding of said position.... Which is it Sylvester?


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:50 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
You do make me smile Sylvester.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:39 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
Hi Kenshou,

There's no need to establish that the eye, etc., makes contact with pītisukha per se. There is no such thing as contact (phassa) without consciousness. And kāyika sukha is certainly cognized by body consciousness.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:26 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
This has all the makings of another pointless attempt at misdirection. Either you really don't understand the indriya-s, āyatana-s, and dhātu-s, or you're applying another idiosyncratic interpretation like your "kāyika vedanā pertaining to the six āyatana-s" to this as well.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:26 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
If you think that sorrow (soka), grieving (parideva), etc., are not conditioned by cetasika dukkha, then that’s fine by me.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:34 pm
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
You're certainly free to pursue any interpretive tangents that you wish. Nevertheless, cetasika vedanā born of manosamphassa is a necessary condition for the arising of sorrow, lamentation, grieving, weeping, or breast-beating.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:01 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
Forgot to mention that the relevant section from MN 44 just highlights the three instances where pleasant feeling, painful feeling, or neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling can be engaged as part of the path without reinforcing the underlying tendencies. Otherwise, in order to abandon the underlying tendencies one is to remain focused on the impermanence, dissolution, dispassion, cessation, and relinquishment of all feelings (aniccānupassī viharati, vayānupassī viharati, virāgānupassī viharati, nirodhānupassī viharati, paṭinissaggānupassī viharati). 

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:07 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
The liberated mind has abandoned all deluded affective and cognitive defilements with regard to both kāyika and cetasika vedanā. In terms of dependent arising, it isn’t feeling that’s the problem, it’s craving, which is rooted in ignorance. 

For example, MN 38 Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Sutta:
On touching a tangible with the body... cognizing a mind-object with the mind, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing (piyarūpe dhamme na sārajjati); he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing (appiyarūpe dhamme na byāpajjati). He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favoring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him.

So kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā…pe… manasā dhammaṃ viññāya piyarūpe dhamme na sārajjati, appiyarūpe dhamme na byāpajjati, upaṭṭhitakāyasati ca viharati appamāṇacetaso, tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti – yatthassa te pāpakā akusalā dhammā aparisesā nirujjhanti. So evaṃ anurodhavirodhavippahīno yaṃ kiñci vedanaṃ vedeti, sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā, so taṃ vedanaṃ nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati. Tassa taṃ vedanaṃ anabhinandato anabhivadato anajjhosāya tiṭṭhato yā vedanāsu nandī sā nirujjhati.

MN 148 Chachakka Sutta:
Dependent on the body &amp; tactile sensations.... Dependent on the intellect &amp; ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, &amp; escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person — through abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering &amp; stress in the here &amp; now: such a thing is possible. 

Kāyañca, bhikkhave, paṭicca phoṭṭhabbe ca uppajjati kāyaviññāṇaṃ…pe…. Manañca, bhikkhave, paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā. So sukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati. Tassa rāgānusayo nānuseti. Dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno na socati na kilamati na paridevati na urattāḷiṃ kandati na sammohaṃ āpajjati. Tassa paṭighānusayo nānuseti. Adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno tassā vedanāya samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti. Tassa avijjānusayo nānuseti. So vata, bhikkhave, sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayaṃ pahāya dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayaṃ paṭivinodetvā adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayaṃ samūhanitvā avijjaṃ pahāya vijjaṃ uppādetvā diṭṭheva dhamme dukkhassantakaro bhavissatīti – ṭhānametaṃ vijjati.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:49 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
What I see is a category mistake of applying the term kāyika to types of vedanā which are not born of kāyasamphassa.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:11 am
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
MN 137 Saḷāyatanavibhaṅga Sutta simply doesn’t support you premise either. The entire discourse deals with somanassa, domanassa, and upekkhā. It nowhere states anything about “mental kāyika feelings.”

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:12 pm
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
Hi Sylvester,

I can find nothing in any of these discourses which sustains your premise or the consequence of your premise, i.e. that vedanā born of manosamphassa includes vedanā born of kāyasamphassa. Regarding just one example, the relevant statements in MN 149 simply highlight the interdependence of mind and body.

All the best,

Geoff


Author: Nyana
Date: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:46 pm
Title: Re: Tha jhana debate
Content:
MN 137 is tangetical to this discussion of vedanā in jhāna which is very clearly analyzed with reference to SN 48.37-40 and other discourses which speak of vedanā in jhāna. I have already demonstrated this.

But if we must look at MN 137, the statement in question is:
In this case the Tathagata is not satisfied nor is he sensitive to satisfaction, yet he remains untroubled, mindful, &amp; alert. (Tatra, bhikkhave, tathāgato na ceva anattamano hoti, na ca anattamanataṃ paṭisaṃvedeti, anavassuto ca viharati sato sampajāno.)

Here the designation of “anattamana” is immediately qualified by “anavassuto ca viharati sato sampajāno.” As for how anavassuta relates to mindfulness of the body and the liberated mind see SN 35.243 (S iv 186, CDB 1246, ATI SN 35.202).

All the best,

Geoff


