﻿Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 29th, 2024 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: What Carries On? (Rebirth)
Content:
Astus wrote:
'Here, there is nothing whatsoever that transmigrates from this existence to the next. And yet, because there is no deficiency of requisite causes and conditions, the result of karma nonetheless manifests.'
( https://84000.co/translation/toh210#UT22084-062-010-93 )

'Great king, no phenomenon whatsoever transmigrates from this world to another world, yet there are the manifestations of death and birth.'
( https://84000.co/translation/toh226#UT22084-063-007-73 )

'There are aggregates of form, feeling, perception, volitions and consciousness. Their re-emergence means that from an extinguished cause another effect originates, (but) from this world to the next, not so much as an atom transmigrates.'
(Nagarjuna's Commentary to The Heart of Interdependent Origination in https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nagarjuna.pdf, p 63) 


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 28th, 2024 at 4:12 PM
Title: Re: Forbidden question?
Content:
Wheat said:
How are we distinct? How do these minds intersect in this space fabricated completely by one mind?

Astus wrote:
The idea expressed in the first stanzas of the Dhammapada is that one acts how one intends. That is actually quite easily understood: out of anger comes violence, out of love comes care. Therefore one should learn to tame one’s mind. This is a very practical and useful teaching.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 19th, 2024 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Conventional truth (sammuti-sacca) and absolute truth (paramattha-sacca) in Pali Canon
Content:
Aemilius said:
footnote says: " According to Japanese editor, Ekottara Agama (TD 2, p.740a-741b)."
Agamas are canonical scriptures,  Kathavatthu is a canonical scripture (Abhidhamma pitaka). Mahayana sutras are also canonical scriptures.

Astus wrote:
The agama referred to ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T02n0125_p0740a25 / https://suttacentral.net/ea40.6 ) makes no mention of the two truths but is a version of the https://suttacentral.net/mn2. The Kathāvatthu is in the Pali Canon, but it is clearly written centuries after the Buddha, and is traditionally attributed to Moggaliputtatissa.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 12th, 2024 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Conventional truth (sammuti-sacca) and absolute truth (paramattha-sacca) in Pali Canon
Content:
Astus wrote:
As the quote says, the two truths as a concept is not found in the canonical scriptures but come up only in the commentaries.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 10th, 2024 at 5:19 PM
Title: Re: Using signs or random events to make decision(?)
Content:
Astus wrote:
Following omens is not the recommended way, rather one should understand the causes and effects of one's actions (AN 5.175, Snp 2.13).
See also these stories: https://suttacentral.net/ja453/en/rouse, https://suttacentral.net/ja87/en/chalmers.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 9th, 2024 at 1:14 PM
Title: Re: Parinirvana
Content:
tingdzin said:
Slightly off-topic, but I would like to know what word is being translated as "soul" here.

Astus wrote:
https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/pali_query.py?qs=j%C4%ABva&searchhws=yes&matchtype=exact.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 9th, 2024 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: Parinirvana
Content:
SkyFox said:
Hey guys. I was reading quite a bit and pondering death and parinirvana and started getting anxious, which never happened before. The idea that you no longer exist in this form is scary.

Astus wrote:
In the Discourse to Seniya ( https://suttacentral.net/sa105/en/analayo ) there is a straightforward distinction between three types of views:

Annihilationism: there is a self now but not after death.
Eternalism: there is a self now and after death.
Buddhism: there is no self now nor after death.

SkyFox said:
I know the Buddha refused to answer what happens after but why?

Astus wrote:
There was a mendicant called Yamaka who had this view ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/sujato ):

'a mendicant who has ended the defilements is annihilated and destroyed when their body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death'

Eventually Sāriputta pointed out to him that a fully liberated being cannot be found in this life, because there is no more identification with any of the aggregates, therefore it is not sensible to claim that there is anything destroyed at the time of death. The reason the Buddha has not declared a position regarding certain matters is because all such ideas are based on the view of a self (see: https://suttacentral.net/sn41.3/en/sujato ). Once one has recognised the actual nature of bodily and mental phenomena, views like the continuity or cessation of a liberated being (e.g. SN 24.15-16) are abandoned.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 6th, 2024 at 4:39 PM
Title: Re: Why do we keep practicing Mahayana and Vajrayana if they contain forgeries and conflict with Early Buddhist Texts (E
Content:
Aemilius said:
My point is that we do not know the contents of the oral traditions. The written sutras (and commentaries) are based on oral traditions. Therefore  you cannot draw the conclusion that the word "moment" or "momentariness" was not used by Shakyamuni, if it is found only in Abhidharma and Mahayana sutras.

Astus wrote:
Ideas like momentariness verifiably developed after the Buddha's time, so there is no need to guess about a lost oral tradition.

Aemilius said:
Actually "the two truths" appears atleast once in the Pali Canon, -if that sutta hasn't disappeared. (It is in Anguttara Nikaya I:60, according to Jayatilleke: 361).

Astus wrote:
That is https://suttacentral.net/an2.24/en/sujato mentioning the distinction between explicit teachings and those requiring explanation. It is not about the distinction between conventional and ultimate truths.

Aemilius said:
"the Heart sutra was not spoken by Avalokiteshvara..",  which is just a silly thing to say.

Astus wrote:
Just out of curiosity, which version of the Heart Sutra is by Avalokiteshvara?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 5th, 2024 at 5:43 PM
Title: Re: Why do we keep practicing Mahayana and Vajrayana if they contain forgeries and conflict with Early Buddhist Texts (E
Content:
Aemilius said:
There is no reason to hold the view that those ideas and concepts that are found in Mahayana sutras, do not belong to the original teachings of Shakyamuni.

Astus wrote:
The reason is that Mahayana sutras use terms and refer to concepts that are known to have been developed within the abhidharma and later treatises, like the self-nature of dharmas, two truths, and momentariness. Or for instance the concept of cessation without deliberation (apratisaṃkhyānirodha), it appears in the Jñānaprasthāna (e.g. https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T26n1544_p0923b06 ), and is eventually established as one of the three unconditioned dharmas in Sarvastivada, but it's not an idea from the sutras. Still it appears in texts like the Lankavatara Sutra (3.73 (T16n672p613a19-20), 3.78 (T16n672p616b9)), and the Nirvana Sutra (8.40; T12n374p567c9, c26).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 5th, 2024 at 3:00 PM
Title: Re: Why do we keep practicing Mahayana and Vajrayana if they contain forgeries and conflict with Early Buddhist Texts (E
Content:
natusake said:
Only if you regard the appearance of the material body of Shakyamuni as the Buddha. This would be a grave error.

Astus wrote:
It matters not, as it's Shakyamuni who first taught the Dharma in this era.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 5th, 2024 at 1:19 PM
Title: Re: Why do we keep practicing Mahayana and Vajrayana if they contain forgeries and conflict with Early Buddhist Texts (E
Content:
natusake said:
In context, the question is whether these teachings can be found in the sutras. These terms already exist in some form in the nikayas. If a specialized term used for convenience or for summary is in commentarial literature, I hardly see this as evidence of something genuinely new.

Astus wrote:
The point is that if certain terms are found only in texts that are accepted to have been composed after the Buddha, then other works using them are also after him. We can also apply this to ideas, like dharma (as an ultimate unit), two truths, and universal momentariness.
This is not to say that such concepts are in harmony or not with the Buddha’s teachings, only that they have emerged later.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 5th, 2024 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: Why do we keep practicing Mahayana and Vajrayana if they contain forgeries and conflict with Early Buddhist Texts (E
Content:
natusake said:
I can tell you that the indriya's are literally named in a vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya

Astus wrote:
They are found in SN 48, the Indriyasaṁyutta, but there is no grouping and naming them as the 22 faculties (bāvīsatindriyāni).

Same applies to the 37 factors of awakening (sattatiṁsa bodhipakkhiyā dhammā), although its seven groups are found all over the discourses, they are not called as such in a single group. The term bodhipakkhiyā dhammā is found (SN 48.55, SN 48.67-70), but it's identified as the five faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom.

natusake said:
and Dīpaṃkāra is named in the Buddhavamsa and elsewhere. It's possible, but am really skeptical of that the other terms couldn't be found.

Astus wrote:
The Buddhavamsa is hardly a discourse (sutta).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 5th, 2024 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Why do we keep practicing Mahayana and Vajrayana if they contain forgeries and conflict with Early Buddhist Texts (E
Content:
natusake said:
All of those appear in the nikayas. You can find them all in the Samyutta Nikaya, except the āveṇikadharmas, but I doubt that you couldn't find those elsewhere.

Astus wrote:
Not all of them, and only what they refer to, but not the terms themselves.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 4th, 2024 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: Why do we keep practicing Mahayana and Vajrayana if they contain forgeries and conflict with Early Buddhist Texts (E
Content:
Aemilius said:
But his view, that all the teachings of Abhidharma can be found in the sutras, is to be found also elsewhere.

Astus wrote:
There are several terms and ideas not found in the nikayas/agamas, only in abhidharma or commentarial works.
Some examples: 37 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhipakkhiy%C4%81dhamm%C4%81, 18 https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225801.html, 22 https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225733.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipankara, https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780190681159.001.0001/acref-9780190681159-e-2260, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_precepts.
See also: https://serval.unil.ch/resource/serval:BIB_ADB8A4E3744C.P001/REF.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 4th, 2024 at 4:45 PM
Title: Re: Why do we keep practicing Mahayana and Vajrayana if they contain forgeries and conflict with Early Buddhist Texts (E
Content:
Aemilius said:
It is perfectly logical and possible that Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Three turnings of the wheel of Dharma. But certain sections of the Sangha didn't accept the later turnings of the Wheel of Dharma that include  Mahayana, Perfection of Wisdom and Chittamatra/Tathagatagarbha. And they have edited their version of the Tripitaka accordingly.

Astus wrote:
Unless you claim that the various abhidharma works and commentaries are by the Buddha, since Mahayana sutras rely on and refer to them, the above view is unsustainable.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 4th, 2024 at 3:09 PM
Title: Re: Why do we keep practicing Mahayana and Vajrayana if they contain forgeries and conflict with Early Buddhist Texts (E
Content:
seeker_of_dharma said:
1. If EBTs are not the words of Buddha, then nothing can be shown to be words of the Buddha and he might've not even existed then

Astus wrote:
The agamas/nikayas are accepted as authentic words of the Buddha. I'm unaware of any Buddhist school ever questioning that.

seeker_of_dharma said:
2. If we understand EBTs, their definition AND VERY GOAL is to achieve nibbana which is defined completely differently to Mahayana's nibbana

Astus wrote:
Not really. Nirvana is defined everywhere as the ending of defilements.

seeker_of_dharma said:
3. If we insist on following Mahayana, we are then willingly not following Buddha's teachings and truth despite calling ourselves Buddhist

Astus wrote:
Taking refuge in the Three Jewels is what makes a Buddhist. That is accepted by everyone.
Furthermore, in terms of doctrine and practice, Mahayana accepts such basic concepts as the aggregates, elements, and sense fields; the three characteristics and dependent origination; the four noble truths and the thirty-seven factors of awakening.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 30th, 2024 at 7:22 PM
Title: Re: merit transfer
Content:
Astus wrote:
Merit (puṇya) - or in other words: goodness, virtue - is not a thing to be given or taken, but refers to the positive quality of an action (karma) that has a positive outcome (vipāka). Dedicating merit is a practice of generosity, cultivating the relinquishment of desiring good for oneself and the wishing for the good of others, that's why it is a virtuous act to do so and gives one even more positive results. For the goodness, the merit of an action to be shared means that one agrees with and rejoices in the positive action of another. At the same time, agreeing with and rejoicing in another's negative action is a cultivation of an evil mind that generates painful consequences.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 13th, 2024 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Aemilius said:
How can you read, recite and maintain the four, five or ten bodhisattva vows, without belief in reincarnation?
How could you contemplate the Four thoughts that turn the mind without belief in reincarnation?

Astus wrote:
The particular issue was whether belief in rebirth is a requirement for practice, e.g. the six perfections. Can one practise generosity without the bodhisattva vows and the four thoughts? Can one practise the perfection of generosity without them?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 11th, 2024 at 4:45 PM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
natusake said:
Perhaps, but if this is your move, you must recognize you've already ceded the main point - which is whether rebirth is a necessary part of the dharma.

Astus wrote:
Quite the opposite. Right view, just like right concentration, is something learnt and not a prerequisite. Therefore belief in rebirth is not a condition to engage fruitfully in the path. Otherwise one would need to already possess all the factors of the path before cultivating it.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 11th, 2024 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
natusake said:
Simple, you begin with mundane right view, as the suttas advise. Just like conventional truth is used to lead one to ultimate truth in Madhyamika.

Astus wrote:
The main hindrance is that it’s not what is commonly accepted as conventional truth, therefore in order to arrive at such a perspective - what happens to include belief in the efficacy of sacrifices - there needs to be a way, unless you think a “leap of faith” is a valid expectation.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2024 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
natusake said:
Are you asserting that an untaught, ignoble, ordinary person can obtain supramundane right view that is stainless before any prior entrance to the dharma? I would say that's true in only one lineage.

Astus wrote:
If the path cannot be engaged in without right view, one first has to obtain right view, but there is no path to right view. What to do then?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2024 at 7:34 PM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
natusake said:
Either way, wrong view is univocally explained as a denial of karma and rebirth.

Astus wrote:
Yes. The question though is whether faith in rebirth is necessary or not in order to engage in Buddhist practice. In other words, obtaining right view is a prerequisite or a result of the path? If one needs right view - including the view of rebirth - before one can cultivate the way, what is it that leads to right view if not the path?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2024 at 4:31 PM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
It can’t be the same practice.

The main reason it cannot (purely my point of view) is that if someone takes the materialist view of mind as a given they don’t believe they can experience the ultimate reality of their own mind, because a purely physicalist point of view precludes that possibility.

Astus wrote:
Why would it preclude that? The mind arises momentarily dependent on a specific sense faculty and sense object. How is seeing that such a mind is conditioned and without essence dependent on belief in rebirth?

Johnny Dangerous said:
I believe that people raised in our society that tend towards a secular point of view implicitly accept that the scientific worldview is “correct” in this sort of static sense and that it has determined the mind to be an epi-phenomena of matter, therefore mind ends entirely at death. This being the case, adoption of this point of view precludes any Buddhist idea of liberating the mind, it can only be improved before it ceases to be.

Astus wrote:
Among non-Buddhists at one point ( https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/sujato ) the Buddha called the annihilationist view the best, because "When someone has such a view, you can expect that they will not be attracted to continued existence, and they will not be repulsed by the cessation of continued existence."
As for the Buddhist view of mind, it is a very temporary product of causes and conditions, and it ends practically every moment. So the fault of the annihilationist view is also the same mistaken view of misconceiving the mind as something enduring, as a self.

Johnny Dangerous said:
What exactly constitutes liberation for someone practicing in a one-lifetime context with no Karma and rebirth? How does it differ from therapy of self-help

Astus wrote:
Liberation is the end of craving. Where is the issue of rebirth relevant to that?

Johnny Dangerous said:
You guys seem to have this mythical practitioner in mind that is seeking and acknowledges a transcendental state not reachable through means other than Dharma, but would have no explanation for its importance or validity beyond feeling good in this life.

Astus wrote:
The benefits of freedom from craving is apparent in this life (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/sn35.70/en/sujato ), and there is no need to consider past or future ( https://suttacentral.net/sn42.11/en/sujato ). Then it is through actual insight into the nature of one's existence that right view is attained.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2024 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
natusake said:
Understanding the four noble truths is understanding death and rebirth, and vice versa. So there is no need to assert one as provisional and another as definitive, because they do not directly contradict each other, but all are various ways to explain the same dharma.

Astus wrote:
They are not contradictory, but that doesn't make them the same. The Mahācattārīsakasutta ( https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato ) makes a distinction between the two types of right view: one "is accompanied by defilements, partakes of good deeds, and ripens in attachments" and the other "is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path". What ripens in attachments is not a factor of the path, that is, does not lead to liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2024 at 6:48 AM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
No one has said that people shouldn’t or can’t practice Buddhist meditation or ethics because they are unsure about rebirth. It was never stated in the thread, and I and others explicitly said that indeed, people can practice this way within the limitations of their view.

Astus wrote:
If rebirth is a necessary element of the view to practise the path, what else would it mean than those without such a view cannot cultivate it? So it is completely logical to say that "If there is no rebirth according to Karma then there is nothing to awaken from anyway". But isn't the actual goal the removal of defilements, while freedom from birth is rather a consequence of that?

Johnny Dangerous said:
The question is “necessity” of rebirth to Buddhist practice in general, and certainly to end the cycle of rebirth, one first has to be convinced it’s a thing.

Astus wrote:
If it is not denied that one can cultivate the path without belief in rebirth, then through such cultivation one can remove the defilements, and with that end all future births, even if never wished for it (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/an7.71/en/sujato ).

Johnny Dangerous said:
As I’ve said a bunch of times now, that’s a laudable goal by itself, and what I’m objecting to is an attempt to conflate two obviously very different approaches to practicing Buddhism, the second of which is purely therapeutic by definition.

Astus wrote:
There are no two paths in Buddhism, are there? Not killing is not killing. Mindfulness of the body is mindfulness of the body. Not grasping at pleasant and painful feelings is not grasping at pleasant and painful feelings. If the actual method used by those who accept and those who do not the teaching of rebirth, then the result should be the same anyway. But if the results are different, then the path to them are different. And if the paths are different, it means unbelievers cannot cultivate what believers can.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2024 at 6:24 AM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Aemilius said:
And you practice the right view.

Astus wrote:
What is it you call the practice of right view? Making vows and dedication of merit?

Aemilius said:
The noble Eight fold path begins with the right view. The Noble eight fold path does not exist without the right view. You know well what the right view is, I assume.

Astus wrote:
The standard definition of right view in the noble eightfold path is the four noble truths ( https://suttacentral.net/sn45.8/en/sujato, https://suttacentral.net/mn141/en/sujato ), and although there are various ways to put it ( https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/sujato ), they are quite alike.

Aemilius said:
One formulation of the right view is that the five aggregates do not exist in the past, present or future and neither do they not exist in the past, present or future.

Astus wrote:
If there are many formulations of right view, which one is the definitive?

Aemilius said:
If you do not accept the right view,  you are holding onto and practicing the wrong view.

Astus wrote:
With what method can one with a wrong view accept the right view?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2024 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Right view, essentially. Or more accurately, their view and any aspirations derived from it are limited in scope.

Astus wrote:
The goal of the path is to end suffering by eliminating all defilements. If one does not intend to do that in this life, then when? And how is that actually helpful in achieving liberation?

Johnny Dangerous said:
I think Bodhisattva aspirations are most definitely a practice.

Astus wrote:
Are those aspirations not to be fulfilled in this life? What is the benefit of believing that one is incapable of achieving one's goal in one's entire lifetime? And if that is indeed how it should be approached, are teachings that advocate complete awakening in a single lifetime wrong?

Johnny Dangerous said:
People can practice these things with whatever beliefs they like, but some ways of seeing things create limitations. I don’t really understand why one would want to insist that this kind of practice shouldn’t be distinguished.

Astus wrote:
Having correct view, even on a purely intellectual level, is already a challenging achievement. How does one get there if not with an incorrect, or partially incorrect view? If correct view is necessary to cultivate the path, then what is the path to correct view?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 9th, 2024 at 3:05 PM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
natusake said:
1. For everyone other than arhats and chigcharwas, rebirth is a necessary part of the path. You cannot accumulate merit and wisdom in one lifetime alone.

Astus wrote:
That does not make it part of one’s current practice though.

natusake said:
2. Without rebirth, the entire idea of a tathagata and bodhisattva is defunct. Bodhisattvas no longer pass through many eons of lives to become completely awakened, and tathagatas simply die and do not emanate countless emanations to benefit sentient beings.

Astus wrote:
Those are ideas, not the practices.

natusake said:
3. Speaking of, if tathagatas merely die, and if people merely die not to be reborn, then this carries with it the fault of annihilationism. The whole system of Buddhist doctrine regarding eternalism and annihilationism, necessary to understand what buddhadharma is getting at, no longer makes any sense.

Astus wrote:
To the same extent, if they survive then it’s eternalism. But more importantly, this is again a matter of theory and not the application of the practices.

natusake said:
4. Without rebirth, dependent arising makes no sense, because rebirth and death form part of its elements, and it is meant to explain the cycle of rebirth and death.
5. Without dependent arising, neither emptiness nor selflessness can be explained.
6. Without emptiness or selflessness, buddhadharma is defunct.

Astus wrote:
It’s not about whether there is rebirth in Buddhism but if it’s needed for its actual cultivation. The six points listed does not concern any if the three trainings or the six paramitas. So even if one does not accept rebirth, what is it that such a person could not practice?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 4th, 2024 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
If someone’s idea of liberation is simply feeling better in this life and being ethical, then it’s not.

Astus wrote:
Is being free from defilements 'simply feeling better'? Might be so. After all, it is called the highest bliss (Dhp 204).

Johnny Dangerous said:
Again though, it is disingenuous to pretend that someone who thinks that death will extinguish their defilements -no matter their actions- is engaging in practice with the same motivation as someone who assumes their defilements propel endless rebirth and dissatisfaction.

Astus wrote:
If that were so, anyone who accepts rebirth - Buddhist or not - or even just the existence of afterlife, should all be quite pious and devout people, not much interested in earthly matters. Apparently that is not so, nor is it taught like that in Buddhism. It is rather a whole theme of contemplation to inculcate the loathsome and painful nature of all forms of existence. Thus there is meditation on rebirth being without a known beginning (SN 15.1-10), on the rarity of human and heavenly birth (SN 56.102-131), but there are also other topics (e.g. AN 10.56) that serve a similar purpose, among them the topic of one's own mortality.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Such a persons view of what constitutes liberation from samsara is not defined or distinguishable from the goals of therapy, secular philosophy, etc.

Astus wrote:
Is there any non-Buddhist system that teaches complete liberation from afflictive emotions? If not, then there is indeed a defined distinction between the Buddhist path and others. The Cūḷasīhanādasutta (MN 11) addresses the difference between the teaching of others and of the Buddha in terms of four kinds of grasping, and while three of those (grasping at sensual pleasures, views, and precepts and observances) are known by others, grasping at theories of a self is not. And it is this fourth kind that causes one to be troubled by thoughts regarding one's past, future, and present existence.

Since the teachings about an afterlife and the doctrine of rebirth is neither unique to Buddhism, nor does it necessarily have a role on the Buddhist path, what makes it indispensable to cultivating the three trainings and attaining correct liberation?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 4th, 2024 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
From a Sravakayana viewpoint liberation means liberation from rebirth, and the -complete- extinction of the defilements, this is not the view employed by secular practitioners, and no rhetorical device, however clever will make that the case.

Astus wrote:
Liberation means the extinction of defilements in all vehicles. Since neither the path nor the result requires rebirth, at what point does it become necessary?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 4th, 2024 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I’m saying that a claim that “rebirth is unnecessary to Buddhist practice” needs to be based on something other than personal preference if it’s being universally applied - as it’s advocates usually want it to be.

Astus wrote:
What is it in the six paramitas, the eightfold path, or the three trainings that requires rebirth?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 3rd, 2024 at 5:37 PM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Astus wrote:
The idea that it is consciousness that is reborn is somewhat troublesome (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato ), even if it is sometimes taught that way for the sake of easier communication. One might as well say that it is the body that is reborn (see e.g. Gongchig 2.4). It is often emphasised that nothing goes from one life to the next (e.g. https://read.84000.co/translation/toh210.html#UT22084-062-010-99, https://read.84000.co/translation/toh226.html#UT22084-063-007-73 ). There is also the undeclared matter whether body and mind are identical or different, thus the argument that while the body remains the mind can go on falls into an extreme view. Where does rebirth fit then?

'For whom there is emptiness there are all natural and supernatural things. Why? For whom there is emptiness there is dependent origination. ... For whom there is all this, the law of the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth, the attainment of the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth, the way of going toward the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth, the passing beyond the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth, the means for passing beyond the fortunate and unfortunate states of rebirth as well as all worldly conventions are established.'
(Vigrahavyāvartanī v 70 commentary, in The Dispeller of Disputes, p 130)

'Since dependent origination lies beyond the scope of those [who assert] things and nonthings, therefore one should liberate oneself from the erroneous views of eternalism and nihilism. Hence, one becomes convinced and maintains that things are dependent imputations, and thus, the presentations of the agent, karma, effect, experiencer, afflicted being, and the body are tenable; yet the errors of eternalism and nihilism do not ensue, and samsara is established.'
(Mūlamadhyamakavṛtti v 17.33, in Buddhapālita’s Commentary on Nāgārjuna’s Middle Way, p 229)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 2nd, 2024 at 4:13 PM
Title: Re: Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Let's simplify this:

If a practitioner does not believe in multiple lifetimes caught in the cycle of rebirth, then what is liberation exactly? What differentiates the psychological well-being coming from practicing Buddhism in this life vs. what comes from practicing therapy or Stoicism, for example?

Astus wrote:
Liberation is from the three poisons and suffering. If any other doctrine or system can give the same, they should rightly be called equivalent to the Buddhadharma. But is the threefold training and the noble eightfold path found anywhere else?

SilaSamadhiPanna2004 said:
Is rebirth a fundamental aspect of the Dhamma, or is it a reflection of Indian culture during the Buddha's era?

I am genuinely curious and am not trying to disrespect the Dhamma or the Buddha, thank you to anyone who responds.
You can actually answer this question very easily by simply reading some Buddhist Suttas, such as the many, many places where the Buddha talks about endless lives through endless universes of contraction and expansion, the notion that nibbana means the end of rebirth, etc.

Astus wrote:
Both the Dhamma and nibbana is taught as verifiable in this life (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/an3.53/en/sujato, https://suttacentral.net/an3.55/en/sujato ). Regardless of the status of afterlife this practice is beneficial ( https://suttacentral.net/mn60/en/sujato ).


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 23rd, 2024 at 5:57 PM
Title: Re: Getting assaulted as a monk
Content:
Astus wrote:
'Bodhisattvas who reside in the inconceivable emancipation possess the power of awesome virtue and therefore manifest the practice of pressuring, showing sentient beings difﬁculties such as these. Ordinary people are inferior and lack energy, and they are unable to pressure bodhisattvas in this way.'
(Vimalakirti Sutra, ch 6, BDK ed, p 122 / https://read.84000.co/translation/toh176.html#UT22084-060-005-237 )

'When a person of little worth looks you up and down and treats you fearfully, you are tempted to not endure him. However, the sin of impatience is more serious than the insult. Why? Because the impatient person is scorned by the saints and by honest people, whereas the patient person is scorned only by common people. Of the two despisals, better to be despised by the ignorant than by the saints. Why? The ignorant scorns what is not despicable, [namely, patience], whereas the saint despises that which is despicable, [namely, impatience]. This is why one should practice patience.'
( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225351.html )

'What is the practice of accepting adversity? When suffering, a practitioner of the Way should reflect: “For innumerable kalpas, I have pursued the trivial instead of the essential, drifted through all spheres of existence, created much animosity and hatred, maligned and harmed others endlessly. Even though now I have done no wrong, I am reaping the karmic consequences of past transgressions. It is something that neither the heavens nor other people can impose upon me. Therefore I should accept it willingly, without any resentment or objection.” The sutra says, “Face hardships without distress.” How? With thorough insight. With this understanding in mind, you are in accord with the Principle, advancing on the Way through the experience of adversity. This is called the practice of accepting adversity.'
( https://buddhagate.org/the-essence-of-mahayana-practice/ )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 22nd, 2024 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Analysing breath
Content:
Jokingfish said:
Therefore I ask - should you analyse breathing or just observe it passively or..?

Astus wrote:
That Buddha taught mindfulness of breath (ānāpānasmṛti) in sixteen aspects, as in the https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato, the https://read.84000.co/translation/toh317.html#UT22084-072-017-165, and elsewhere. Then it was extended and regrouped into six phases, as one can see in https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/the-sutra-on-the-concentration-of-sitting-meditation/ and Zhiyi's https://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/sgs_book_page.htm, or even to eight phases, as in Buddhaghosa's https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/visuddhimagga-the-pah-of-purification/d/doc1085076.html. The point is, mindfulness of breath is a complete training, and analysis has its place in it.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 20th, 2024 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Free Will?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Implicitly, he's saying, such positions are irrelevant to liberation, his standard position on these questions.

Astus wrote:
If they were true, or believed to be true, the path to liberation would not be possible, therefore they are not accepted, in other words: rejected.

Queequeg said:
His reasoning here was, volition is self evident.

Astus wrote:
There is also a list of factors (initiative, persistence, exertion, etc.) that exemplify the validity of individual effort.

Queequeg said:
Here, too, he doesn't really address the question and assumes we have the capacity to make causes.

Astus wrote:
The significance of the discourse is in the recognition and distinction of old and new action, the assertion of the ability to choose and act.

Queequeg said:
Again, he does not actually address the question of whether there is determinism or not, but rather expands on the possibilities of following the path. Implicitly he is acknowledging the ability of beings to set their own course but that is it.

Astus wrote:
The possibility of following the path is contrary to determinism that would deny such an option. See also Gosāla's determinism in the https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/sujato. That is a fruitless view ( https://suttacentral.net/mn76/en/sujato ), and, like other wrong views ( https://suttacentral.net/sn41.3/en/sujato ), it is based on the various forms of self view ( https://suttacentral.net/sn24.8/en/sujato ).

Queequeg said:
The Buddha distinguishes between the spiritual capacities and how karma plays out for one who is undeveloped verses one who is developed.

Astus wrote:
Consequences would be identical if effects were determined. Exactly because there can be development there is no determined result.

Queequeg said:
This response fails to address whether there is free will from the Buddhist perspective.

Astus wrote:
Beings are the makers and heirs of their own actions. If they were not the makers, that would be determinism. If they were not the heirs, that would be indeterminism. Such denial of cause and effect is called wrong view (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/an3.119/en/sujato ), and is based on the mistaken belief in a self ( https://suttacentral.net/sn24.5/en/sujato ).


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 19th, 2024 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Free Will?
Content:
Astus wrote:
The Buddha has rejected both determinism and indeterminism ( https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato ), and he practically ridiculed those who denied autonomy in their actions ( https://suttacentral.net/an6.38/en/sujato ). Naturally, what's been done is done, but currently one chooses how to act ( https://suttacentral.net/sn35.146/en/sujato ), therefore bad habits can be rectified ( https://suttacentral.net/sn42.8/en/sujato ), and even the consequences of past actions can be mitigated ( https://suttacentral.net/an3.100/en/sujato ).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 15th, 2024 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: What to read after the Dhammapada?
Content:
usagibryan87 said:
What is a good next text to read, for a beginner, in the official Buddhist canon, which I understand is vast, and what would a good translated version with commentary of that be?

Astus wrote:
A short anthology by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/index.html

A collection of essential teachings: https://ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Dhammatthavinicchaya/index.htm based on a text found in the Chinese and Tibetan tradition: https://read.84000.co/translation/toh317.html

An anthology from Pali, Chinese, and Tibetan sources: https://buddhistuniversity.net/exclusive_01/Common%20Buddhist%20Text%20%282015-12-29%29.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 15th, 2024 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: I need some help.I don't know What's the point of following the path if I will die?
Content:
Artziebetter1 said:
so a permanent soul or vijnana cannot exist,I get that,and I welcome it.

Astus wrote:
It does not exist even now, there is no self existing from one moment to the next in this life either. It is not that there is a mind/self that ceases to exist at death, that's the annihilationist view.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 13th, 2024 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: Four Yogas sources Beyond Lankavantara
Content:
Vajrasvapna said:
I was talking with a India friend and he point that this was similar to this Four Yoga set from Theravada sources:

Astus wrote:
That's from the Dharmadharmatāvibhāga (verse 35), not Theravada.

"Application with a focal point,
Application without a focal point,
Application without focusing on a focal point,
And the application of focusing on the absence of a focal point."

"In the first application one observes that all phenomena are nothing more than mind. 
Based on that, one s application is such that the apprehended is not observed. 
This then leads to an application in which neither apprehended nor apprehender are observed. 
Based upon that, ones subsequent application involves the observation of suchness, without observing any apprehended or apprehender at all. This approach enables one to generate nonconceptual wakefulness."
(Distinguishing Phenomena from Iheir Intrinsic Nature, p 43-44)

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogachara#Four_prayogas.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 10th, 2024 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: The self is not existentially privileged
Content:
Rick said:
Assuming this is right, does it mean ultimately the self is no more important-meaningful than a rusty ball bearing?

Astus wrote:
"Like oneself, all sentient beings hold themselves most dear." ( https://suttacentral.net/an7.64/en/sujato ) This shows well that the self is the most important there is for everyone (see also: https://suttacentral.net/ud5.1/en/sujato ). In other words, it is what we call "I" and "my" that we cling to the most. That is, the self is the label for maximum attachment.

Rick said:
Assuming this is right, what good does knowing it conceptually do, nudge you towards ekarasa?

Astus wrote:
Clinging hurts when we lose what we don't want to let go. And we always lose it. That's the suffering one can escape from by recognising the futile and painful nature of attachment.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 9th, 2024 at 3:41 PM
Title: Re: The self is not existentially privileged
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I don’t see how you arrive at that. Vedanta doesn’t regard self as a reoccurring experience but rather as a constant observer.

Astus wrote:
What Vedanta posits as the source of illusion is mistaking the objects of the observer for the self, that is, as you wrote: "when consciousness is mistaken for an object of consciousness".

PadmaVonSamba said:
Aggregates by definition are not a self, because a self would have to be unitary.

Astus wrote:
While they are not actually a self, they are what get mistaken for a self, that's why self is defined in Buddhism in relation to them.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 9th, 2024 at 3:34 PM
Title: Re: The self is not existentially privileged
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
Trees and rocks are percepts. The ordinary self is never perceived, it is merely a unexamined concept we believe in fiercely. As such, any beliefs about self are equally false whether they have any functional value within deluded experience or not.

Astus wrote:
In ordinary usage it's not simply a self on its own but something that is regarded as a self or related to a self. That is, whenever we say "I am ..." and "My ...", that's the conventional self.

It is a valid, understandable, and common manner of speaking to say "Look at me." and "Give me that." also "I hear him." and "I envy her." Those personal pronouns point to a specific being, an entity, a self. Just as you can do the same with other conventional things, like rocks and trees (and chariots, as it goes in the https://suttacentral.net/sn5.10/en/sujato ).

An important role of the conventional self is in ethics. Murder is killing another being. Theft is taking something that belongs to another. To deny the conventional reality of a self is to deny the reality of morality.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 9th, 2024 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: The self is not existentially privileged
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
In buddhist teaching, “self” is really nothing more than a reoccurring experience. It is what happens when consciousness is mistaken for an object of consciousness.

Astus wrote:
That’s more like a Vedanta view. Buddhism defines self view in terms of 20 possible relations to the aggregates, see: https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/Sakkaya-ditthi.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 8th, 2024 at 2:43 PM
Title: Re: The self is not existentially privileged
Content:
Rick said:
The self is not existentially privileged, it is exactly as real/unreal as everything else.
Would any Buddhist school agree with this?

Astus wrote:
The ordinary self is a conventionally valid conceptual construct, like trees and rocks. The self of various beliefs, a soul, is even conventionally false.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 7th, 2024 at 6:44 AM
Title: Re: Directly Pointing to the Mind
Content:
Matt J said:
A special transmission outside the scriptures.
No dependency on words and letters.
Pointing directly to the human mind.
Seeing into one’s nature and attaining Buddhahood.

Astus wrote:
It seems to me to be immediately embodied and accomplished in zazen.

Zazen is transmitted face to face.
Zazen is not depending on concepts.
Zazen is directly encountering the mind.
Zazen is seeing one's nature and attaining buddhahood.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 3rd, 2024 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: English resource on Prajñaparamita-sañcayagatha
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Do you know if it is possible to pull up the chapters on stand-alone pages? The longer sutras on 84000 usually crash my browser.

Astus wrote:
If you open the link it opens only that chapter while the others remain hidden. I've also made the chapter into an attachment to this post.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 3rd, 2024 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: Shōbōgenzō / Uji in Japanese?
Content:
Cittapalo said:
For reference: I'm looking for this poem specifically:

Zen master Guixing of She Prefecture is the heir of Shoushan, a dharma descendant of Linji. One day he taught the assembly:
For the time being mind arrives, but words do not.
For the time being words arrive, but mind does not.
For the time being both mind and words arrive.
For the time being neither mind nor words arrive.

I don't think either version has those.

Astus wrote:
葉縣ノ歸省禪師ハ。臨濟ノ法孫＊ナリ。首山ノ嫡嗣ナリ。アルトキ大衆ニシメシテイハク。
有時ハ意到テ句不到ラ。
有時ハ句到テ意不到ラ。
有時ハ意句兩ツナカラ倶ニ到ル。
有時ハ意句倶ニ不ト到ラ。
( http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T2582_.82.0047a22:0047a22.cit )

Zen Master Kishō of the Shōken region is a Dharma descendant of Rinzai, and the rightful successor of Shuzan. On one occasion he preaches to the assembly:
Sometimes the will is present but the words are absent,
Sometimes the words are present but the will is absent,
Sometimes the will and the words are both present,
Sometimes the will and the words are both absent.
(SBGZ BDK ed, vol 1, p 148)

Chan Master Guixing of Shexian was a descendant of Linji, the direct heir of Shoushan. On one occasion, addressing the great assembly, he said,
Sometimes, the intention reaches it, and the words don’t reach it.
Sometimes, the words reach it, and the intention doesn’t reach It.
Sometimes, both the intention and the words reach it.
Sometimes, neither the intention nor the words reach it.
(SBGZ SZTP ed, vol 2, p 210)

It is found in Dahui's Zhengfayanzang:

有時句到意不到。妄緣前塵分別影事。
有時意到句不到。如盲摸象各說異端。
有時意句俱到。打破乾坤界。光明照十方。
有時意句俱不到。無目之人縱橫走。忽然不覺落深坑。
( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/X67n1309_p0594b05 )

Sometimes expression reaches but mind does not — you mistakenly focus on phenomena that are reflections of thought about present sense data.
Sometimes mind reaches but expression does not — you are like blind people touching an elephant, each describing it differently.
Sometimes mind and expression both reach — breaking through heaven and earth, light illumines the ten directions.
Sometimes neither mind nor expression reach — people with no eyes run hither and thither, and suddenly fall unawares into a deep pit.
(Treasury of the Eye of the True Teaching, vol 1, §316)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 30th, 2024 at 6:20 PM
Title: Re: Honen's conception of the Pure Land
Content:
Astus wrote:
'The fourth and the last stage is perhaps best thought of as the stage after death, when one has succeeded in being born in the Pure Land in the West. At this fourth stage, all of the practices of the Holy Path aimed towards gaining final enlightenment that were rejected as being too difficult for people living in the age of the final Dharma are readmitted on their own terms. Since they now dwell amid the wonders of the Pure Land, people are continuously in the presence of the Buddha and hear his teachings without the distortions caused by the many disturbing passions of the present world. Now they can indeed obtain the bodhicitta, reach the stage of non-retrogression, and be assured of eventual enlightenment. Therefore, the practices of the Holy Path which were rejected as too difficult are now all reinstated and practiced in their full essence. This stage is indicated in a number of Honen's works, for example, in the Nembutsu tai-i, he states, "Sentient beings in the age of the final Dharma, being incapable of attaining any goal through manifold practices, should first rely on the power of Amida's vow and attain birth in the Pure Land through the recitation of the nembutsu. After achieving birth in the Pure Land and seeing Amida Buddha and bodhisattvas Avalokiteshvara and Mahasthamaprapta, they should learn the holy teachings and attain enlightenment" (JZ. 9:512a). Because he saw the nembutsu alone as able to encompass ordinary and deluded persons, Honen taught the way of salvation in the Pure Land through calling upon Amida's name. Once that goal is achieved, then all of the practices of the bodhisattva are reinstated with their original intent of leading to complete enlightenment. This fourth stage, often lost sight of, nonetheless informs Honen's thought, since it had been a part of the thought of all his Pure Land predecessors.'
( https://web.archive.org/web/20150711131503/http://www.jsri.jp/English/Honen/TEACHINGS/senchaku/process.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 29th, 2024 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Big Mind vs small mind (and real-life application)
Content:
a Zen Rōnin said:
Dogen Zenji in his writings differentiate the Big Mind and small mind.

Astus wrote:
Where exactly does he write about those two?

In the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenzo_Ky%C5%8Dkun of the Eihei Shingi he writes about the three minds where the third is "magnanimous mind" or "great mind" and he defines it the following way:

"As for what is called magnanimous mind, this mind is like the great mountains or like the great ocean; it is not biased or contentious mind. Carrying half a pound, do not take it lightly; lifting forty pounds should not seem heavy. Although drawn by the voices of spring, do not wander over spring meadows; viewing the fall colors, do not allow your heart to fall. The four seasons cooperate in a single scene; regard light and heavy with a single eye."
(Dogen's Pure Standards for the Zen Community, p 49)

a Zen Rōnin said:
He also said that the Big Mind means "accepting everything we encounter in our life as the True Self".

Astus wrote:
Where did Dogen say that?

a Zen Rōnin said:
But does this mean that we turn a blind eye to people who mistreat us?
Is being "indifferent to them" the way out of such situation?
Or do we need to literally "love" them in spite of what they are doing to us?

Astus wrote:
It is the perfection of forbearance (kṣāntipāramitā) that is the practice of facing all sorts of difficulties. You can learn more about it for instance https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc82346.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 18th, 2024 at 3:48 PM
Title: Re: Why Zen? A Pure Land and Zen comparison...
Content:
Astus wrote:
There is no opposition, so there is no reason to choose one over the other. Both are collections of teachings and methods for the cultivation of the six perfections and the attainment of complete awakening. In fact, buddha-rememberance has been a common method within zen practically from its beginning.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 12th, 2024 at 3:12 PM
Title: Re: English resource on Prajñaparamita-sañcayagatha
Content:
Astus wrote:
It's also available as https://read.84000.co/translation/toh10.html#UT22084-029-001-chapter-84, translated by https://khyentsefoundation.org/story/dr-gareth-sparham/.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 6:45 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Ethics Paradox
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
But the Precepts are guidelines or aspirations rather than commandments, and killing oneself (even through deliberate malnutrition) is also frowned upon, and Buddhists throughout Asia have always included meat in their diets (vegetarianism is the exception rather than the rule).

With all that in mind, I'm going to call meat-eating, for survival, mixed karma rather than a paradox.

Astus wrote:
The precepts are training rules, but they reflect the laws of cause and effect.

'And what are the dark deeds with dark results? It’s when someone kills living creatures, steals, commits sexual misconduct, lies, and uses alcoholic drinks that cause negligence. These are called dark deeds with dark results.' ( https://suttacentral.net/an4.235/en/sujato )

'Classification of Taking Life. There are three types: taking life through the door of desire, taking life through the door of hatred, and taking life through the door of ignorance. The first one means to take life for meat, pelts and so forth, for sport, for one's own wealth, and to maintain oneself and loved ones. The second one means to take life through the arising of hatred, out of resentment, or in competition. The third one refers to making sacrifices and so forth.
Three Results of Taking Life. There are three results of taking life: the result of the maturation of the act, the result similar to the cause, and the general result of the force. "Result of maturation of the act" means that the actor will be born in the hell realms. Experiencing a "result similar to the cause" means that even if the actor is born in the human realm, his life will be short or he will experience much sickness. "General result of the force" means that the actor will be born in an inauspicious place where there is little dignity.'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 112-113)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 12th, 2024 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Invitation to Comment/Critique
Content:
haha said:
My point is that such thing should be understood in their respective context.

Astus wrote:
The point of this topic is, however, reviewing the presented interpretation from a Buddhist perspective.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 12th, 2024 at 7:04 PM
Title: Re: Invitation to Comment/Critique
Content:
haha said:
Those types to metaphor or simile are used to describe some intended meaning. Their cosmology is dissimilar to Buddhist.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean it’s not possible to match Buddhist with Vedanta reasoning? In that case they are all boxed in their own ideas, and arguments are rather mere statements of faith. That view defeats the point of making a reasoned argument. Thus Vedanta would amount to nothing more than blind faith in their textual tradition. The https://suttacentral.net/mn95 addresses that type of belief quite well.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 12th, 2024 at 2:58 PM
Title: Re: Invitation to Comment/Critique
Content:
haha said:
While rubbing two sticks, it springs out, fire should be always there. It is different than Buddhist argument.

Astus wrote:
It is different in that it’s faulty, as it mistakes the potential with the actual. Just as the potential of fire does not function as or has the attributes of fire, so it’s wrong to call it fire, a consciousness that isn’t conscious of anything is without the functions or attributes of consciousness.

haha said:
In deep sleep, one is not conscious. After one wakes up, one knows that s/he was in deep sleep. Is there no consciousness in deep sleep as it is not conscious?

Astus wrote:
Since it is agreed one is not conscious during deep sleep, there is no consciousness present. That one has been sleeping before is known by inference.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 12th, 2024 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Invitation to Comment/Critique
Content:
haha said:
However, Vedanta would say this universal fire is inside the stick; intended meaning is that it is always there.

Astus wrote:
Just as there is no fire in a stick, a consciousness that is not conscious cannot exist.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 11th, 2024 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: Invitation to Comment/Critique
Content:
Astus wrote:
"But this entity existing prior
To sight and hearing and the other senses,
Feeling and the rest—
By what means can it be affirmed?
And if it could be there,
When sight and all the rest are absent,
There’s no doubt that these in turn
Could, in its absence, also come to be.
Someone is revealed by something;
Something is revealed by someone.
How can there be someone without something?
How can there by something without someone?
...
If that which sees is also that which hears
As well as that which feels,
These senses it must needs precede.
But this does not make sense.
If the seer is different from the one who hears
And different also from the one who feels,
Then, when there is the seer, there would also be the hearer
And thus there would be many selves.
Neither does this self exist
In what gives rise
To seeing, hearing, and so forth,
Feeling and the rest."
(MMK 9.3-5, 8-10, tr Padmakara; see also Bodhicaryavatara 9.60-68)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 7th, 2024 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Taisho Canon Catalogue No. Shingon works
Content:
Astus wrote:
https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/Map-of-the-Taisho.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 29th, 2024 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: How is Buddha-nature different from atman?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Brahman is the ultimate reality of the universe,
And ‘ultimate reality of the universe’ can also describe dharmakaya.

Astus wrote:
Brahman is the one and only real being, everything else are illusory, according to Vedanta. The dharmakaya is in a sense identical to emptiness, and emptiness is the ultimate reality of all phenomena, but the term for that is dharmadhatu. Furthermore, while Brahman is alone, not mixed with anything else, in Buddhism emptiness is never apart from appearances, and the dharmakaya is not separate from the other buddha bodies.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 28th, 2024 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: How is Buddha-nature different from atman?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
What is the difference between the dharmakaya and Brahman?

Astus wrote:
Dharmakaya is the term used for the complete realisation of emptiness, therefore it is something only buddhas have. Brahman is a being, an entity, not a realisation.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 27th, 2024 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: How is Buddha-nature different from atman?
Content:
It'sYa1UPBoy said:
This is a genuine question because of the ways that Dharmakaya and Buddha-nature are often described--- eternal, pure, true self, true being ---and how Vairocana Buddha is described as the Dharmakaya of Shakyamuni Buddha, eternal and pure and the true form and so on.

Astus wrote:
Buddha-nature means that a being has the nature of a buddha. A buddha means a perfectly enlightened one endowed with many special qualities. That a being has the nature of a buddha refers to the availability of the special qualities of a buddha.
What others believe the atman to be is necessarily mistaking one of the five aggregates for something permanent, like believing that there exists a mind, an awareness that is eternal. Such misconceptions are clearly refuted in Buddhism.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 25th, 2024 at 3:51 PM
Title: Re: Do you get rid of suffering for good with Dzogchen ?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Minus Zen (IMO) many of the vehicles that hold those teachings as definitive tend to still see enlightenment as a result of the two accumulations.

Astus wrote:
That is common tathagatagarbha doctrine, that the buddha qualities are already present and practice is about removing the two veils ( https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=record&vid=1125&mid=1944022 / 5.170). Since in dzogchen it's assumed that the eight other vehicles know practically nothing about it, it is more about how the nine vehicles are conceived and not about what other traditions actually teach.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 23rd, 2024 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Can Alayavijñana be seen/discerned in meditation?
Content:
Alex123 said:
Can a person discern Alayavijñana, or only 6 consciousnesses?

Astus wrote:
The ālayavijñāna and the manas are convenient theories to explain the continuity of the stream of consciousness within samsara, hence they are not perceptible.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 31st, 2024 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Authentic Dzogchen teachers Europe
Content:
Astus wrote:
https://simplybeing.co.uk/about-james-low-2/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Pema_Kunsang


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 30th, 2024 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: East Asian Buddhism - any what-is-what (each school) overview?
Content:
Astus wrote:
The series https://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/archive/nutshell/index.htm can give you a fair summary from a Chinese Buddhist perspective. See chapters 21-24 and 53-97. And if you'd like a basic introduction to East Asian Buddhism, I recommend the treatise https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/the-awakening-of-faith/.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 25th, 2024 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Form and emptiness
Content:
Rick said:
"Form is emptiness, emptiness is form."

Does Mahayana/Madhyamaka say all phenomena are empty *and* have form? Or are there exceptions, non-empty or form-less phenomena?

Astus wrote:
Form is the first of the five aggregates. That often quoted line from the https://read.84000.co/translation/toh21.html#UT22084-034-009-75 is followed by the other four aggregates: "In the same way, feeling, perception, formation, and consciousness are empty."


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 21st, 2024 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism compatible with the modern world and modern thinking?
Content:
Difeed said:
Is it still practical to practice buddhism (traditional buddhism) today?

Astus wrote:
A regular description of the Dharma taught by the Buddha is that it is "apparent in the present life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves" ( https://suttacentral.net/an3.53/en/sujato; https://suttacentral.net/sn35.70/en/sujato ). Humans were humans thousands of years ago just as they are today. It is is a teaching that is verifiable directly in one's own experience.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 14th, 2024 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: AUTHETNIC Buddhist Quotes
Content:
Astus wrote:
If they are meant to be authentic, it should give the sources properly, including the actual source, like the title of the book, date of publication, and the name of the translator.

For instance, at 0:51 is a quote from "The Sutra of Hui Neng":
"By amending our mistakes, we get wisdom.
By defending our faults, we betray an unsound mind."

It is found in "The Diamond Sutra and The Sutra of Hui-neng" on page 92 of the Shambhala Publications edition of 2005, translated by A. F. Price and Wong Mou-Lam.

In The Sixth Patriarch’s Dharma Jewel Platform Sutra by the Buddhist Text Translation Society (2001, p 198):
"Correcting failings gives birth to wisdom.
Guarded errors expose a petty mind."

And in McRae's translation (which is generally the best one available):
"By reforming transgressions one will necessarily generate wisdom.
To defend shortcomings within one’s mind is not wise."
( https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/the-platform-sutra-of-the-sixth-patriarch/, ch 3, BDK ed, p 41)

Reliable sources online:
https://suttacentral.net/
https://84000.co/
https://www.bdkamerica.org/tripitaka-list/
https://kalavinka.org/


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2024 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Was Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka an implicative negation?
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
However, Yogacara does say that there is something which is real, an ultimate reality, which is not a sheer negation, the thing-in-itself (vastumatra). Why? Because for them, it is only when there is something to be empty that we can speak of emptiness (e.g., a cup is empty because it exists as a cup and so it is empty of liquid)

Astus wrote:
Mere things (vastumātra) and mere appearances (snang ba tsam) are not that different. One is labelled ultimate, the other conventional, but in both cases they represent the level that is mistaken for something else. More importantly, both stand for a view where grasping no longer has an object and ignorance no longer has a foundation. Coming back to the basics, clinging to the aggregates is the problem, not the aggregates themselves. It doesn't matter at all whether one labels the aggregates as the ultimate or the conventional in their system, as long as they are not mistaken as a self or as belonging to a self.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2024 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Was Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka an implicative negation?
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Well, this is kind of unfair. It begs the question for the Madhyamaka position. This statement is basically saying, either you agree with this specific Madhyamaka position, or you are clinging to self.

Astus wrote:
Denying ultimate reality to consciousness is not specifically a Madhyamaka concept, especially when the definition of ultimate reality is to exist independently and on its own. In Abhidharma terms it'd be calling the mind uncompounded.

Javierfv1212 said:
Philosophically speaking, anti-foundationalism (which is the common reading of Madhyamaka as a metaphysics) is also quite rare in modern philosophy, most metaphysicians would probably go for some kind of foundationalism.

Astus wrote:
Yogacara accepts the emptiness of both self and dharmas, and it denies ultimate reality to both mind and its objects. What foundation is left?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 27th, 2024 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Was Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka an implicative negation?
Content:
Vajrasvapna said:
However, even the ones you quoted don't entirely eliminate the Yogacara elements.

Astus wrote:
It eliminates the suggestion that there is somehow a special consciousness not empty. After all, the need to establish mind as ultimately real is simply a form of clinging to self. So it doesn't agree with even the fundamental and universally accepted Buddhist doctrines.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 23rd, 2024 at 5:09 PM
Title: Re: How to respond to theistic/deistic arguments from a Madhyamaka point of view?
Content:
Astus wrote:
There are two situations where one is occupied by such questions:
- as a mere mental exercise for amusement, in which case it's simply meaningless and futile, a type of wrong speech ( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/essay/the-buddhist-path-to-enlightenment-study/d/doc1187810.html )
- as a way to establish a specific set of rules and regulations, precepts and practices, in other words a doctrine to be followed

The first case needs no answer. The latter case, like the view of eternalism and the assumption of a creator, are refuted in various ways. For instance, positing a creator, believing in determinism, or denying causality are all doctrines that reject the possibility of personal development and a way to be free from suffering ( https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato )

1) Issues with Madhyamaka's usage of an 'infinite chain of casualty' as a concept
2) Issues with infinite past, and with samsara having no beginning
3) The fine-tuning argument
4) The issue of how Madhyamaka doesn't explain why existence actually exists

Those show a misunderstanding and misapplication of the teachings. Views about the eternal/temporary and finite/infinite nature of the world are meaningless ( https://suttacentral.net/mn63/en/sujato ) and based on the mistaken views of substantial existence ( https://suttacentral.net/sn41.3/en/sujato ). So Nagarjuna wrote:

"Other than as the imputation of a convention
What world is there in fact
Which would exist or not?
For this reason the Buddha,
Except for keeping silent, said nothing
About the fourfold format: having or
Not having a limit, both, or neither."
( https://media.dalailama.com/English/texts/Nagarjuna-Precious-Garland-ENG.pdf, v 114-115)

5) Karma's apparent perfection without an intelligent mind behind it

Although that is very much like the cosmological views of the previous four, it is an opportunity to redirect one's attention of imaginary entities and worlds out there somewhere back to the very process of conceiving beings and universes. Karma is about what goes on in one's heart, the craving to find and remain in a pleasant experience, the hatred of encountering and being in unpleasant situations, and the confusion regarding the uncertainty of all the changes happening. Views give the illusion of a fixed existence, of knowing one's place, of being somebody. And those very same views cause one to suffer, because our actual physical and mental world of experiences (the five aggregates) keeps changing. So, the entirety of the Buddhist teachings are aimed at liberating one's heart from the endless cycle of pain and trouble.

'If one has the thesis of real entities,
Awful and vicious views arise, 
Which give birth to attachment and aversion; 
From this contentions ensue.
This is the cause of all dogmatic views; 
Without it no afflictions will arise; 
So if this is understood thoroughly, 
All views and afflictions will cease. 
“Who understands this?” one might wonder; 
It’s those who see dependent origination. 
The supreme knower of reality has taught 
That dependent arising is unborn. 
For those who are suppressed by false knowledge 
And grasp the untrue to be true, 
In them arises from attachment 
A series of grasping and contentions. 
Those who are great beings, 
They have neither thesis nor contention; 
For those who have no thesis, 
How can there be opposing thesis?'
( https://ibc-elibrary.thanhsiang.org/files/public/Nagarjuna-Sixty-Stanzas-of-reasoning-Buddhism.pdf, v 46-50)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 22nd, 2024 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: English translation collection of basic sutras that has had its language adapted for modern readers
Content:
Astus wrote:
You might want to start with this booklet: https://www.bdk.or.jp/pdf/buddhist-scriptures/02_english/TheTeachingofBuddha.pdf.

Perhaps https://books.google.hu/books/about/The_Threefold_Lotus_Sutra.html?id=dKxKyQEACAAJ is also OK.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 22nd, 2024 at 6:07 AM
Title: Re: Does the doctrine of karma blame victims for their own suffering?
Content:
Astus wrote:
The teaching of karma is meant to show how skilful and unskilful intention resulting in action influences one's state of mind, and that in turn defines one's experience. Although it is generally viewed as things happening out there, the main point is still what is happening in here. As far as the external manifestation of karma is relevant is ethical behaviour, the first part of the threefold training. Grasping that teaching wrongly can easily lead to long series of conjectures that are quite unfounded, like the idea that it blames victims. Grasping it correctly shows that virtuous and unvirtuous actions readily produce happy and unhappy experiences, and that there is a way to make an end to karma.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 21st, 2024 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Was Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka an implicative negation?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Other translations might help in a better understanding:

'Such things spoken of as the “great elements”, 
These are fully absorbed into consciousness; 
Since they are dissolved by understanding them, 
Are they not falsely imputed?'
(Sixty Stanzas of Reasoning, v 34, tr Thupten Jinpa)

"The great elements, etc. that they have spoken about are gathered in [i.e., are projected by] consciousness. Since you become free [from them] by understanding that, certainly they are falsely imagined."
(Sixty Verses of Reasoning, v 34, tr Gareth Sparham)

"The primary elements etc. are included in consciousness. If freedom arises through this understanding, why are they not erroneously imagined?"
(Reasoning: The Sixty Stanzas, v 34. tr Peter Della Santina)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 19th, 2024 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Finding Common Ground
Content:
Astus wrote:
If you're drawn to Kagyu, then you might want to get familiar with their teachings, starting with the Jewel Ornament of Liberation by Gampopa and its modern commentaries.
The website https://studybuddhism.com/ is also a good place to start, for instance it has a page about https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/lam-rim/shamatha/concentration-terminology and https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/abhidharma-tenet-systems/comparison-of-buddhist-traditions/the-four-close-placements-of-mindfulness-in-mahayana.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 6th, 2024 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Yogachara: Ontological or Epistemological Idealism?
Content:
anagarika said:
Thanks for the recommendation, I will try to look for the book on Scribd.

Astus wrote:
No need, https://dharmaebooks.org/an-overview-of-the-five-texts-of-maitreya/, it's freely available.

anagarika said:
Does this lack of metaphysical assertion of a transcendental mind apply to the whole of Yogachara, or were there really some subschools which reified the mind and elevated it to some sort of ground of being? If not, where does this misinterpretation come from?

Astus wrote:
It's a good way to mischaracterise one's opponent. And possibly some had such misinterpretation anyway.

anagarika said:
However, as I understand, for Yogacharin there ultimately is "something", right?

Astus wrote:
They uphold the twofold emptiness. Again from Brunnhölzl (p 26):

'The perfect nature is emptiness in the sense that what appears as dependent false imagination is primordially never established as the imaginary nature. As the ultimate object and the true nature of the dependent nature, this emptiness is the sphere of nonconceptual wisdom, which is nothing other than phenomenal identitylessness.'


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 6th, 2024 at 5:00 PM
Title: Re: Yogachara: Ontological or Epistemological Idealism?
Content:
Astus wrote:
This practical clarification by Karl Brunnhölzl might help ( https://dharmaebooks.org/an-overview-of-the-five-texts-of-maitreya/, p 19-21):

'Cittamātra is not a metaphysical assertion of a transcendental reality consisting of “mind-only” but a description of our delusion — the dreams of this sleep from which the Buddha has awakened. If the dream-world saṃsāra is “merely mind,” freedom and the Buddhist path are possible because we can change our minds through creating a counter-dream within the dream of our delusion. Most important, we can wake up from this dream.

That cittamātra is constantly referred to in Yogācāra texts as the delusional perception of what does not exist (these texts moreover abound with dreams, illusions, and so on as examples for it) hardly suggests that it exists in a real or ultimate way. Thus, the notion of “mere mind” refers only to the mistaken minds and mental factors of saṃsāra (the realities of suffering and its origin) but not to the realities of the path or cessation. Many Yogācāra works make it clear explicitly and repeatedly that not only external objects but also “mere mind” does not exist and is to be relinquished in order to attain the realization of the path of seeing and eventually buddhahood.

In this context, the four “yogic practices” (Skt. prayoga) in Yogācāra works are the following four steps of realization:

1. Outer objects are observed to be nothing but mind 
2. Thus, outer objects are not observed as such
3. With outer objects being unobservable, a mind cognizing 
them is not observed either
4. Not observing both, nonduality is observed

This means that stages (1)–(3) — and thus the notion of cittamātra — are progressively dealt with only up through the end of the path of preparation. Stage (4) marks the path of seeing (the first bhūmi), on which bodhisattvas have to let go of the notion of cittamātra as well. In other words, like so many other Buddhist notions, cittamātra is no exception to simply being an expedient pedagogic tool to realize a certain level on the path. However, it is neither the final realization, nor to be reified in any way (thus becoming an obstacle to this very realization), but to be discarded once its intended function has been accomplished.'


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 3rd, 2024 at 5:31 AM
Title: Re: I'm looking for a good introductory book for a friend...
Content:
Astus wrote:
https://plumvillage.org/books/the-heart-of-the-buddhas-teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh is a great introductory book.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 2nd, 2024 at 4:48 PM
Title: Re: Which of the following activities do you consider sexual misconduct? (continued)
Content:
tingdzin said:
If one were brought up in a strict Christian environment, one might become extremely jealous if someone else slept with his wife. If one were living in a society in which it was good etiquette to offer your spouse to a guest (and there used to be such societies), he might not be upset. If a person brought up in the latter society visited a Christian society, he would quickly find that his frame of reference was not acceptable. How can there be a one-size fits all foundation for ethics?

Astus wrote:
That's two different scenarios, just as there is the difference between stealing another's book and borrowing it with the other's consent. But just because one may borrow a book, it does not make stealing a harmless act.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 1st, 2024 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Which of the following activities do you consider sexual misconduct? (continued)
Content:
tingdzin said:
I also disagree with the notion that there must be some universal at work in determining what is and is not ethical.

Astus wrote:
Karma is quite the universal ethical principle that applies even to non-human beings. Also, in what situation is this not valid: 'If someone were to have sexual relations with my wives, I wouldn’t like it. But if I were to have sexual relations with someone else’s wives, he wouldn’t like that either.' ( https://suttacentral.net/sn55.7/en/sujato )?

tingdzin said:
Such things as polygamy and polyandry, for example, would not necessarily cause such unwholesome emotions as jealousy if they had long been acceptable to the society a person grew up in, because they would not be necessarily be regarded as a betrayal.

Astus wrote:
Sexual misconduct is not about monogamy. Having multiple wives was fairly normal in the Buddha's time.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2024 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Two truths question
Content:
Rick said:
Should you be comfortable sharing, do *you* think it's useful/illuminating to ascribe aspects to ultimate truth?

Astus wrote:
Ultimate truth is a term with various meanings in Buddhism. What matters is whether the definition one has a liking of is something helpful in reducing troublesome qualities and increasing beneficial ones. For instance, in the various abhidharma systems all the dharmas are considered ultimate. But they are not aspects of a single ultimate.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2024 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Two truths question
Content:
Rick said:
I am drawn to the Buddhist teachers/teachings that see ultimate truth as having an effable and ineffable aspect.

Astus wrote:
Most of them are like that, even some in Madhyamaka, like Bhavaviveka and Jnanagarbha.

'Ultimate truth is free of all conceptual projection. It is of two types: the ultimate truth that can be expressed, and the ultimate truth that cannot be expressed. The former is of two kinds: the ultimate truth expressed in terms of argument, and the ultimate truth expressed in terms of arising.
The “ultimate truth expressed in terms of argument” is concerned with the reasons refuting the four options concerning arising. (That is, the argument that something arises from itself, from something else, from both itself and something, and from neither itself or something else.) The “ultimate truth expressed in terms of arising” negates the true arising of every apparent entity.
What is empty of all conceptual projection, clear and subtle, is known as the “ultimate truth that cannot be expressed in words.” The ultimate truth is approximately this: totally empty of the two extremes of “being” and “nonbeing” (i.e., neither eternal nor totally nonexistent).'
(Summary on the Meaning of the Middle Way by Bhavaviveka, v 4-8; tr Richard H. Jones)

Others, like Atisa, disagree.

'The ultimate is one only. Others maintain that it is twofold. How can the nature of reality (chos nyid), which cannot be established as anything, be two, three, and so on? [The ultimate] is defined as nonarising, noncessation, and so forth according to the formula [given] by treatises. Because of the way in which different ultimates do not exist, there is neither a subject (chos can) nor its property (chos nyid) [for inferential reasoning]. There is not any differentiation in emptiness. When cognized in a nonconceptual manner, it is conventionally designated that “emptiness is seen.”'
(Entry to the Two Realities by Atisa, v 4-6; tr James B. Apple)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2024 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: No-Self Concept
Content:
Astus wrote:
Huangbo Xiyun put it this way (Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, 1.4):

'Practitioners of the Way, have no doubt that the four great elements constitute the body, that these four great elements have no self, and that the self has no master.
Know that this body has no self and no master. The five aggregates are mind, but the five aggregates have no self and no master.
Know therefore that this mind has no self and no master. The six sense bases, six sense objects, and six sense consciousnesses come into contact with each other and become subject to production and cessation, so this is also the case with them as well. Since these eighteen elements of cognition are empty, everything is empty. There is only the original mind, which is serene and pure.'

This sums up the standard analysis according to the four great elements ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mah%C4%81bh%C5%ABta#Buddhism ), five aggregates ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha ), and the eighteen elements ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80yatana ). How does it apply to everyday activities? Hunagbo continues:

'There is the nutriment of consciousness and the nutriment of wisdom. The body consisting of the four great elements is tormented by hunger and disease. Nurturing this body with only what it needs, without generating greed and craving, is called the nutriment of wisdom. Self-indulgently clinging to what is tasty, mistakenly giving rise to discrimination, seeking out only what pleases your taste buds, and without generating any sense of loathing — this is called the nutriment of consciousness.'

Just as Sengcan wrote (Three Chan Classics, BDK ed, p 123):

'The perfect Way is not difficult;
It only avoids discrimination.
If only there is no love or hate,
Completely clean and clear is it.'

The teaching of no-self is to develop the wisdom that cuts the root of greed, hatred, and delusion. In other words, one is concerned or anxious when something is perceived as impacting oneself or things/beings belonging to oneself. But when the mind is peaceful, not upset by self-centred emotions, there is openness with understanding and compassion.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2024 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Two truths question
Content:
Rick said:
From what I read online the Madhyamaka interpretation you present here isn't universally accepted by Buddhists. Some schools, Vajrayana Yogacara Zen for example, differentiate nontrivially between sunyata and tathata (with the latter leaning a bit towards woo-woo-ishness). True?

Astus wrote:
I don’t see it with those schools either. But it’s natural that individuals imagine so before they are more familiar with the teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 29th, 2024 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Two truths question
Content:
Rick said:
Why include the unfathomable tathata with the fathomable sunyata/pratityasamutpada? Avoiding that seems like a good reason for having a level of the unfathomable above (alongside) the fathomable ultimate.

Astus wrote:
Suchness is another term for emptiness. It is ineffable and inconceivable because there is nothing to name or cognise, as emptiness means the absence of an essence, a substance, a self. It is not that there is a special experience that is so otherworldly one cannot put it into words.
Sugar is sweet, salt is salty - that’s how they are. To make an issue out of taste is not seeing its suchness, its empty, meaningless, insubstantial quality, but grasping at an idea and giving free rein to like and dislike. That’s when one mistakes the conventional as ultimate.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, January 28th, 2024 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Two truths question
Content:
Rick said:
But there are Buddhists that posit a third truth, right? Not the middle truth of Tiantai, rather a kind of 'ultimate ultimate truth' — ineffable nondual tathata dharmakaya kind of non-thing?

Astus wrote:
It is the ultimate truth of emptiness that is also called suchness, and is ineffable and inconceivable.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, January 28th, 2024 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Two truths question
Content:
Rick said:
Per Nagarjuna and Madhyamaka, are the two truths (conventional, ultimate) actually

Astus wrote:
Conventional are dependently arisen conceptual fabrications commonly accepted as real. That there is no essence in/beyond conventions is called the ultimate. Therefore mistaking the conventional as ultimate is the conventional, and seeing the conventional as just conventional is the ultimate. So the two truths are not things to be identical or different but simply conventional methods.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2024 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Which of the following activities do you consider sexual misconduct? (continued)
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Yeah, well, that reformatting is an example of the kind of contemporary interpretation you hear. We do this because, if you read the scriptural formulations, it is often worded in ways that sound inapplicable today. Not only don't we talk in terms of being bound to another, but our common sense understanding of the most serious kinds of sexual misconduct (see the poll in the previous thread) is not encompassed by them.

Astus wrote:
Old texts may sound inapplicable today, but for that the solution is the old approach of looking for the meaning instead of just the words. People were attached to their loved ones millennia ago just as they are today. The fear of having an unfaithful partner, the fear of being found out, and the pain of being cheated on is recognised in ancient texts just as it is well known today. Furthermore, if it is accepted that sexual misconduct can have long term consequences because it is one of the ten unwholesome actions, what it means cannot be something specific to time and place but quite universal, a basic law of how things work. Like this: 'If someone were to have sexual relations with my wives, I wouldn’t like it. But if I were to have sexual relations with someone else’s wives, he wouldn’t like that either.' ( https://suttacentral.net/sn55.7/en/sujato ) Similarly, in some discourses (like DN 4, DN 26, AN 3.65-66, AN 5.174, Dhp 18.246) approaching another's wife (paradāraṁ gacchati - i.e. adultery) is used instead of sexual misconduct. And, in line with that, not being unfaithful (anaticariyā) is applied to both husband and wife (DN 31).


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2024 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: New book on Ch'an
Content:
tingdzin said:
what specifically is anti-Buddhist in it?

Astus wrote:
The basic concept of claiming that Chan is Taoism with different words. As the introduction (p 3) states:
'This is a revisionary history of Ch'an in a number of ways, a project of recovery. It traces the development of Ch'an's deepest philosophical levels, the conceptual assumptions that make awakening possible and are largely lost in modern Zen practice and literature (as China Root demostrates). This history reveals Ch'an to be essentially a refinement and extension of Taoism - again, as China Root demostrates.'


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2024 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Which of the following activities do you consider sexual misconduct? (continued)
Content:
Zhen Li said:
This is true, but not everyone is a textual absolutist. How the third precept is discussed/interpreted in contemporary circles seems to incorporate some culturally/temporally specific attitudes and views.

Astus wrote:
I might be missing something here - like the contemporary interpretations - but the basic formulation is supposed to be simple enough, 'easy for householders to abstain from it' (AKB 4.33, vol 2, p 1352). Might be reformatted as not to cheat or be the one who is cheated with.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 22nd, 2024 at 4:35 PM
Title: Re: Which of the following activities do you consider sexual misconduct? (continued)
Content:
Charles Jones said:
The lay precept is deliberately vague: just don't commit sexual misconduct. But then, what constitutes sexual misconduct?

Astus wrote:
It is not that vague. Sexual misconduct (kāmesumicchācāra/kāmamithyācāra) has a standard definition (e.g. MN 41, MN 114; https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-068-021.html#UT22084-068-021-4413 ) of avoiding women who have a guardian or are protected in other ways. Another way to put it is contentment with one's wife (AN 5.179, Snp 1.6; https://read.84000.co/translation/toh44-31.html#UT22084-036-002-462 ). For other references on the extended rules https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=480779#p480779.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, January 21st, 2024 at 6:44 PM
Title: Re: New book on Ch'an
Content:
Astus wrote:
I see no good reason to obtain a book that's based on anti-Buddhist ideas and propagates a view that's opposed to Chan itself.
If it's the translations of Chan texts, there are others available. If it's scholarship, there are proper studies to read. If it's Chan and Daoism, try Linguistic Strategies in Daoist Zhuangzi and Chan Buddhism by Youru Wang.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2024 at 7:32 AM
Title: Re: Relationship Between Mahayana Sutras And Abhidharma
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Although what does “The rest exists absolutely.” mean here?

Astus wrote:
The term is 'paramārthasat'. From the auto-commentary (p 1892):

'Therein, even when a thing is being broken - or [likewise, even when its (constituent) factors] are mentally removed - and the cognition of this thing continues, this thing exists absolutely (paramārthasat).  For example, visible form (rūpa): for, therein, when a visible [thing (vastu)] is  broken into atoms or infinitesimal particles [paramāṇu] and when taste [rasa] and  the other factors have been mentally removed, the cognition of the intrinsic nature  [svabhāva] of visible form persists. Sensation [vedanā], etc., is also to be seen  in the same way. As this exists absolutely (paramārthasat), this is absolute truth  (paramārthasatya).'


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, January 20th, 2024 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: Relationship Between Mahayana Sutras And Abhidharma
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Could you explain your statement a bit more and/or provide some quotes?

Astus wrote:
Ultimate has a somewhat different meaning in Abhidharma. It means that something is actually a thing (i.e. dharma), an effective force. It does not mean it is necessarily eternal.

An example:

'The cognition [buddhi] of a pitcher ends when the pitcher is broken; the cognition of water ends when, in the mind [dhī], one analyzes [anyāpoha] water. The pitcher and the water, and all that resembles them, exist relatively or conventionally. The rest exists absolutely.'
(ABK 6.4; vol 3, p 1891)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 19th, 2024 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: The Dharmakaya in Mahayana
Content:
Shinjin said:
What's the difference with Nirguna Brahman besides Dharamakaya being non self?

Astus wrote:
Dharmakaya is the term for a buddha's realisation/wisdom of emptiness. Nirguna Brahman is eternal, ultimately existing consciousness. Quite different.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2024 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Relationship Between Mahayana Sutras And Abhidharma
Content:
Aemilius said:
In Entering the Middle Way (Madhyamaka-avatara), Chapter 6, Chandrakirti says:

" The Buddha unqualifiedly rejected the ultimate reality of both mind and material forms in the Perfection of Wisdom Texts, while in the Abhidharma he affirmed the conventional reality of both of them. [93]"

in Indian Madhyamaka Buddhist Philosophy After Nagarjuna, Volume 2, translated with notes and commentaries by Richard H. Jones, Jackson Square Boooks, New York, 2012.

Astus wrote:
It's in the https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=record&vid=1113&mid=1927303 ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/zh/B09n0045_p0735b24 ), but it actually says something different.
In general, mental and material dharmas in Abhidharma are ultimate realities, not conventional.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2024 at 7:10 PM
Title: Re: Relationship Between Mahayana Sutras And Abhidharma
Content:
vgh238 said:
i have been sort of wondering, whats the relationship between the mahayana sutras such as prajnaparamita series or Suramgamasamadhisutra and commentaries such as abhidharmakosabhasya by vasubhandu is the abhidharma the essence of those mahayana sutras or is the relationship between them more complicated and how should i approach them together.
thank you for any answers

Astus wrote:
Mahayana sutras can mention/use/refer to various concepts found in different abhidharma literature (see e.g. https://serval.unil.ch/resource/serval:BIB_ADB8A4E3744C.P001/REF.pdf ).
Most of the extant abhidharma works represent different non-Mahayana Buddhist schools.
The main Mahayana abhidharma works are the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidharma-samuccaya and the http://www.cttbusa.org/100shastra/100dharmas_1.asp.html ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T31n1614 ), although other works might also be categorised as such.

One can approach non-Mahayana abhidharma material as representatives of specific interpretations of Indian Buddhism, and many of those ideas live on in Mahayana, either accepted as they are, or in a reinterpreted form, or as something rejected.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 17th, 2024 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: The Dharmakaya in Mahayana
Content:
Astus wrote:
'When all the brittle twigs of what is known
Are burned, peace comes – the Victor’s dharma form.
And then there is no birth and no decay,
The mind will cease, the kāya manifest.'
( https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=record&vid=1113&mid=1927492 )

'Dharmakaya is all-pervading emptiness'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 50)

'Dharmakaya is merely labeled as the exhaustion of all errors through realization of the meaning of the all-pervading emptiness of all phenomena, or as the mere reverse of the nature of confused projection. In reality, it does not possess in any way whatsoever the identification, characteristics, or the designation of "Dharmakaya." This is just as Milarepa said.
If expressed from another angle, Dharmakaya has eight characteristics:
1. Sameness. There is no difference between the Dharmakaya of all the Buddhas.
2. Profundity. Because it is free from all elaboration, it is difficult to realize.
3. Permanence. It is not compound; it has no beginning, middle, or end; and it is free from birth and cessation.
4. Oneness. It is indivisible because the Dharmadhatu and primordial wisdom cannot be differentiated.
5. Perfection. It is unmistaken because it is beyond exaggeration and underestimation.
6. Purity. It is free from the three obscurations.
7. Radiance. There are no discursive thoughts; only nonconceptual thoughts are projected in the nonconceptual state.
8. Relationship to Enjoyment. Embodying the nature of vast good qualities, it is the foundation of the complete enjoyment (Sambhogakaya).'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 288-289)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 8th, 2024 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Question about "unshakeable causes" from Gampopoa Jewel Ornament of Liberation
Content:
truthb said:
In the section on Impermanence, Gampopa concludes with a discussion of faith.

Concerning Trusting Faith one sentence reads:
"Trust that the happiness of the two higher realms is the result of unshakeable causes."

Anyone know what he is discussing here?

Astus wrote:
Gampopa explains it later on p 118-120.

'[There are three actions:] (1) meritorious actions, (2) demeritorious  actions and (3) immovable [aniñja] actions. [Moreover,] there are  three actions of which the action conducive to pleasant experience  is the first. Meritorious action is good action in the realm of desire; immovable action is good action above [the realm of desire].'
(Abhidharmakośabhāṣya, 4.45cd-46ab, vol 2 p 1374)

See also: https://suttacentral.net/mn106/en/sujato


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 25th, 2023 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Butvthere is a difference between a permanent consciousness and a never ending stream of consciousness, just like the difference between water trapped in a water globe and a river that is constantly changing.

Astus wrote:
A stream is like a row of ants, only nominal. Nothing goes from one state of consciousness to the next. Similarly, causal continuity applies not only to mind but to cups and snowmen as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 25th, 2023 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
Again, are you saying these to longchenpa and the buddha?

Obviously, they knew what they were talking about and this objection wasn't applicable.

Why don't you address their words?

Astus wrote:
I’m questioning your interpretation and presentation of their words. If Longchenpa and the Lankavatara Sutra advocated atmavada, then they should not be considered in harmony with the established Buddhist view. So why don’t you explain the reason you believe there to be an unconditioned awareness that is in direct contradiction with the doctrine of no self?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 25th, 2023 at 8:10 AM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
Mind, the conceptual consciousness, is the process of generating the understandings that relate phenomena to the sense of self, i.e., the manas.

It is the products of the conceptual consciousness that populate the repository consciousness and, from there, form the basis for the conditions of future experience.

Awareness, buddha nature, is what is aware of appearances, yes, but it performs no function.

Astus wrote:
Conceptual understanding and other mental phenomena are the products of the four mental aggregates together.
Awareness of appearances is the very function of the fifth aggregate, consciousness, and it is a conditioned process dependent on various factors.
So, to assume that there is an unconditioned awareness is mistaking the changing and impermanent consciousneas aggregate as something continuous and permanent.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 25th, 2023 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
Mind, the conceptual consciousness, is both a result and a cause, it rests firmly within conditions; there is no unconditioned mind.

Unconditioned awareness is simply, as longchenpa said, the "original purity" of "timeless awareness" that the realization of is a breakthrough into "buddhahood without meditation."

Astus wrote:
What is the difference between mind and awareness? Isn't awareness what is aware of appearances? If it is, then it performs the same function as mind/consciousness, and so it is conditioned. If it is not aware of things, what does it do then and why call it awareness?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 24th, 2023 at 5:15 PM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
How is the view that awareness arises when senses & sense consciousness meet objects of consciousness really any different from the materialist view that awareness arises from physical matter (the brain)?
The sense organs and brain are physical matter.

Astus wrote:
It’s the meeting of sense organ (e.g. eye) and sense object (e.g. form) when consciousness becomes. In other words, when one sees a tree there arises the thought of a tree. That’s how it simply works for us all. It’s nothing to do with materialism, but with ordinary perception. See the explanation posted before https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=682029#p682029.

PadmaVonSamba said:
If we make the distinction between senses and sense consciousness (which materialists don’t do) then from where does sense consciousness arise?

If we say that without objects of consciousness that consciousness doesn’t arise, then how is that different than saying consciousness arises from objects?

If we say that there is something that already exists which  is not an object of awareness that arises to meet objects (and subsequently result in consciousness) then why is that not a permanent self?

Astus wrote:
None of that applies.

Consciousness arises from the meeting of organ and object.
There is no separate existence of object and consciousness stated.
We don’t say that.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 24th, 2023 at 5:02 PM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
No one is talking about an unconditioned mind though, not even the quote you're providing, it talks about an ultimate self not unconditioned mind.

Astus wrote:
Such an unconditioned mind/awareness is what your interpretation seems to be, as you have stated before:

SvatahSiddha said:
Buddha nature is the unconditioned awareness that knows conditions.

Astus wrote:
Thus such an assertion is no different from the view of a permanent self. If you say it’s not that, what is the difference?

SvatahSiddha said:
The dharmakaya is uncaused and all conditions arise from it; this is how and why there is a complete lack of any independent causation or origination to be found.
claim to be.

Astus wrote:
If the dharmakaya were the source of all phenomena, how is that unlike a creator god?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 24th, 2023 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
The unconditioned is found via the undoing of conditions; the first and last delusion is the manas; it is the manas that allows greed and hate to arise via the activity of the conceptual consciousness.
If the ending of the ending of greed, hate, and delusion left anything behind, what is left wouldn't be unconditioned.
Likewise, if the unconditioned was just the ending of a subset of conditions then how would it allow the path to be discerned?

Astus wrote:
With an unconditioned mind no path, no liberation is possible, and it's no different from the view of self professed by non-Buddhists.

'Your position is untenable. Those scriptural quotations explain the way of realizing selflessness. They reference the Buddha’s actualization of selflessness with the terms such as “actualizing the self.” When the genuine beings fully comprehend the freedom from elaborations, the freedom from elaborations is sometimes labeled with the term “self.” You, however, simply did not understand this point.
If an ultimate self existed, sentient beings would either have no chance 
whatever of gaining liberation from saṃsāra or would gain liberation without any effort at all. One of those two situations would absurdly follow. For, firstly, due to the ultimate existence of the self, some beings would be bound in saṃsāra while others would be liberated in nirvāṇa — desire to change this would be impossible. And, secondly, the ultimate self is perceived, according to you, by the perception of a correct consciousness, unlike the self of the relative. Your assertion resembles that of Īshvara!
If a self existed ultimately, this existence would contradict all of the Transcendent Conqueror’s teachings about the selflessness of all phenomena of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa.'
(The Karmapa’s Middle Way: Feast for the Fortunate, p 402-403)

As for what buddha-nature means:

'By what reasoning can it be shown that sentient beings have Buddha-nature? Because all sentient beings are pervaded by the emptiness of Dharmakaya, because there are no differentiations in the nature of suchness, and because all beings have a "family " For these three reasons, all sentient beings are of the Buddha-nature. ...
To explain the first reason "all sentient beings are pervaded by the emptiness of Dharmakaya" means that the ultimate Buddhahood is Dharmakaya, Dharmakaya is all-pervading emptiness, and emptiness pervades all sentient beings Therefore, all sentient beings are of the Buddha-nature.
Saying "there are no differentiations in the nature of suchness" means that the suchness of the Buddha is identical to the suchness of sentient beings None is better or worse, none is bigger or smaller, none is higher or lower So, because of that, all sentient beings are of the Buddha-nature.'
(The Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 49-50)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 24th, 2023 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Depth of space is definitely perceived visually. So are holes in donuts.

Astus wrote:
Depth, distance, those are not seeing space but the dimensions of visual objects. Holes, etc. are called the space element, and it is conditioned.

PadmaVonSamba said:
What you are saying is that neither awareness nor objects to of awareness exist or even occur until they meet. how is that logical?

Astus wrote:
What I'm saying is that dividing experience to subject and object is an after thought. There is no awareness on its own, outside experience, nor is there something that one is aware of apart from its presence in experience. So to say that awareness meets its object is a secondary division that's possible after experience happened.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Neither consciousness nor objects of consciousness  are experienced. It’s the interaction of the two which is our experience.

Astus wrote:
Going back to the standard description: sense organ + sense object > consciousness. The three (organ, object, consciousness) together is contact, and with contact comes feeling, perception, and intention. They all give what is experienced and how it is experienced. When it is consciousness (as the sense organ) meeting its object, that too goes with the many conditions and factors.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Awareness can’t be experienced, because it is what is experiencing.
Objects of awareness lack intrinsic existence.

Astus wrote:
There is no distinct subject, no distinct consciousness to do the experiencing. If there was, it would mean awareness can exist without being aware of anything.

PadmaVonSamba said:
are you saying that aggregates are consciousness? The aggregates  (form, feeling, perception, formation) are all objects of awareness. They are what is experienced. So how can they be what is doing the experiencing?

Astus wrote:
Consciousness does not occur without feeling, perception, formation. To feel something is to experience it, there is no meaning in or a place for a second experiencer. In other words, experience is a complex, conditioned process without any agent doing it.

Here's a summary of how consciousness is defined in where assuming an entity is avoided.

'In the Abhidhamma psychology, bare consciousness, that which constitutes the knowing or awareness of an object, is called citta. It can never arise in its true separate condition. It always arises in immediate conjunction with mental factors, the factors that perform more specialized tasks in the act of cognition. In the books of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka the individual nature of consciousness is often sought to be described by positioning it in relation to other basic factors (dhamma) into which individual existence is analyzed. This perhaps explains why we do not find in them a formal definition of consciousness.
In the Abhidhamma exegesis we find consciousness being defined in three different ways. The first is by way of agent (kattu-sādhana): “Consciousness is that which cognizes an object” (ārammaṇaṃ cintetī ti cittaṃ). It is of course true that apart from the object (ārammaṇa), there are other conditions, such as immediate contiguity (samanantara) and support (nissaya) necessary for the genesis of consciousness. However, if they are not mentioned here it is because even if they are present, consciousness cannot arise without the object condition. The importance given to the object is also shown by the fact that consciousness is also defined as “that which grasps the object” (ārammaṇika). This definition is intended to refute the wrong notion that consciousness can arise without an object (nirālambaṇavāda).
The second definition is by way of instrument (karaṇasādhana): “Consciousness is that through which the concomitant mental factors cognize the object” (etena cintetī ti cittaṃ).In this definition, while consciousness becomes the instrument, the concomitant mental factors become the agent. The third definition is by way of activity or mode of operation (bhāva-sādhana): “Consciousness is the mere act of cognizing the object” (cintanamattam’eva cittaṃ).
It is only the third definition that is valid from an ultimate point of view (nippariyāyato), because, strictly speaking, consciousness is neither that which cognizes (agent) nor that through which cognition takes place (instrument), but is only the process of cognizing an object. As a basic factor of actuality (dhamma), consciousness is the mere occurrence due to conditions.
It is not an entity but an activity, an activity without an actor behind it. The point being emphasized is that there is no conscious subject behind consciousness. Therefore the two definitions by way of agent and instrument are to be understood as provisional defining devices. Their purpose is to facilitate our understanding (sukha-gahaṇatthaṃ) of the nature of consciousness and, more important, to refute the wrong belief that a permanent self-entity is the agent or instrument of cognition.
If there is an agent or an instrument of cognition, it is not beneath or behind the mental phenomena into which the mental continuum is analyzed.'
(Theravada Abhidhamma by Y. Karunadasa, ch 5)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 23rd, 2023 at 4:20 PM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
3D depth is a concept and you are also directly experiencing it. And if you have depth perception, then you are perceiving it with the senses.

Astus wrote:
That is not even perceiving space but the spatial dimensions of visual objects, i.e. their form.

PadmaVonSamba said:
But what is it which is aware of and experiences the ending of the defilements? The point is, anything that you can say is changeable isn’t awareness. It’s an object of awareness.

Astus wrote:
There is no experience without awareness. To say that experience consists of an object and a subject is a conceptual explanation. Awareness does not exist on its own, only as awareness of something. Trying to carve out a distinct subject apart from the object renders awareness meaningless, as there’s never an awareness unaware of something.
What experiences, that is consciousness with its various mental factors, in other words: the four mental aggregates. So the five aggregates is the teaching used to refute all forms of self concepts and show the conditioned and compounded nature of mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 23rd, 2023 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
yes, I am perceiving the relative distance between objects. I am perceiving  there is a hole in the middle of a donut. I have two functioning eyes and therefore depth perception.

Astus wrote:
What you describe - and what I presume you call the obvious space - is the conditioned space, the space element. See for instance: Abhidharmakosa 1.28.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Just because your senses cannot perceive something doesn’t mean it’s only a concept.

Astus wrote:
If something is not perceived by the physical senses, then it is by definition experienced as a concept, a thought, a mental phenomenon.

PadmaVonSamba said:
If the true nature of mind is not already enlightenmed, then no amount of teachings can liberate it.

Astus wrote:
Liberation is the ending of the defilements. That can happen only if the mind is changeable. A permanent mind is stuck forever in whatever state it is in.

PadmaVonSamba said:
In other words, the true nature of mind is already full luminous and infinite, I.e., bodhi but attachment obscures that, like clouds block the Sun which is always shining.

Astus wrote:
That is a fine parable, but it does not mean a hidden unchanging awareness. A piece of chocolate is emptiness, is suchness in its true nature, but perceiving it as a substantial entity with a desirable quality turns it into an object of sensual lust and thus a source of many suffering. That's how the chocolate's luminous, undefiled state is obscured by the clouds of ignorance. Similarly, the mind is without any permanent essence, but misconstruing it as one's true self, there is much conceit and craving.

PadmaVonSamba said:
That’s a difference in view between Mahayana and Theravada. So if you are quoting Pali scriptures then yes, that’s valid. But not valid in Mahayana.

Astus wrote:
There is no disagreement here.

“In that case, Anurādha, since you don’t actually find the Realized One in the present life, is it appropriate to declare: ‘Reverends, when a Realized One is describing a Realized One—a supreme person, highest of people, who has reached the highest point—they describe them other than these four ways: After death, a Realized One still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists’?”
“No, sir.”
“Good, good, Anurādha! In the past, as today, what I describe is suffering and the cessation of suffering.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.86/en/sujato, see also: https://suttacentral.net/mn72/en/sujato, https://suttacentral.net/an7.54/en/sujato )

'Now that the Lord has passed into nirvana,
We cannot say that he exists.
Likewise “he does not exist” we cannot say.
And neither both nor neither can we say of him.
And when the Lord was still alive,
We cannot say that he existed.
Likewise “he did not exist” we cannot say.
And neither both nor neither can we say of him.'
(MMK 25.17-18, tr Padmakara group; see also MMK 22)

'In nirvana there are no aggregates 
And there cannot be a person. 
What nirvana is there for one 
Who is not seen in nirvana?'
(Catuhsataka 9.221, tr Ruth Sonam)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 23rd, 2023 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
Anders said:
Most of the ontological refutations run into trouble the moment you point the same razor to Nirvana. Which is basically the same as Atman except it's not self and therefore not something that can ultimately be apprehended as real either.

Astus wrote:
Atman has some defining qualities, like consciousness, permanence, and existence. Nirvana is basically the end of defilements and not a special thing.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 23rd, 2023 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Space is not dependently arising.

Astus wrote:
If so, then it cannot interact with anything, nothing could be in it, or 'take up space'.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Aggregation and dependent arising are the criteria buddhist theory uses to refute the true existence of things. Space has neither, yet everything is obviously occupying space. So, you can’t say that there’s no space.

Astus wrote:
Space exists as a mere concept, and not something that is 'obviously occupied'.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Aryadeva may not have been able to perceive space, but I’m perceiving if right now. At least let’s say that I have awareness of it. It’s very 3D, btw.

Astus wrote:
If you perceive it, is it something you can see or hear? If none of the five senses can perceive it, then what's left is thought, therefore space is a concept.

PadmaVonSamba said:
The AV’s would argue that a permanent self is what is already liberated, just as Buddhists assert that the mind’s true nature is already Buddha, but that all this samsaric attachment is just standing in the way of realizing it.

Astus wrote:
If it's already liberated, then it has no need for any teaching, thus the spiritual path is useless. If it has attachment though, then since it's permanent, it's never going to be liberated. If attachment and liberation has nothing to do with a permanent self, then no reason to even theorise it.

PadmaVonSamba said:
If that’s the case, then why wouldn’t that contradict the Mahayana assertion of “buddhahood” which says that Buddhas continue to exercise functional awareness?

Astus wrote:
Buddhas do not continue to exist, that's one of the wrong views. See e.g. https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/sujato, MMK ch. 22.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Per the question posed by the OP (are there logical refutations of a permanent self), I think the problem with talking about the “self” is that “self” is an abstract concept like “god” or “art”.
You can say such and such thing is (a work of) art but you can’t say that “art” is absolutely definable as this or that.

Astus wrote:
Self is always something related to the aggregates ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.47/en/sujato ), and as such is the root of all the wrong views ( https://suttacentral.net/sn41.3/en/sujato ).

PadmaVonSamba said:
Buddhism thus asserts that No thing can be found which can be called a self.

Astus wrote:
The 20 possibilities of asserting a self (sakkāya-diṭṭhi) is refuted, thus there is no room left to assume some special case of a self.

PadmaVonSamba said:
1. awareness has no characteristics.
2. Individual streams of consciousness are not parts of some great consciousness (god).

Astus wrote:
Consciousness has characteristics. Not all hindu philosophies assume a universal consciousness.

PadmaVonSamba said:
I think the best refutation of the ‘self” argument, using the very logic of those who assert it, is that any notion of a ‘self’ is already (by virtue of being a concept) an object of awareness and therefore cannot be awareness. In other words, you can’t say that awareness is self, or is god, or some combination of the two, because then it becomes an object of awareness instead of awareness.

Astus wrote:
That might work for Vedanta, so they can maintain an ultimate subject, but not so from a Buddhist perspective.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 22nd, 2023 at 4:24 PM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
But that’s only if unconditioned awareness itself were a “thing” isn’t it? Space isn’t conditioned but things fill it. So why can’t things fill awareness without awareness being conditioned?

Astus wrote:
Space, as a "non-thing" is simply a non-existent, a conceptual abstraction even on a conventional level. Similarly, an unconditioned awareness is the abstract idea of self of non-Buddhists that is invalid even on the conventional level.

'That space and so forth are permanent 
Is a conception of common beings. 
For the wise they are not objects perceived
Even by conventional [valid cognition].'
(Catuhsataka 9.205, tr Ruth Sonam)

'Indeed! This self, if permanent,
Is certainly inert like space itself.
And should it meet with other factors,
How could they affect it, since it is unchanging?'
(Bodhicaryavatara 6.29, tr Padmakara group)

If there were a permanent self/consciousness, it'd have nothing to do with liberation. In fact, liberation itself would be impossible.

'How can what is permanent be harmed, 
Or the unharmed be liberated? 
Liberation is irrelevant 
For one whose self is permanent. '
(Catuhsataka 10.244)

'Then the Buddha, picking up a little bit of dirt under his fingernail, addressed that mendicant: “There’s not even this much of any consciousness that’s permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, and will last forever and ever. If there were, this living of the spiritual life for the complete ending of suffering would not be found. But since there isn’t, this living of the spiritual life for the complete ending of suffering is found.”'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.97/en/sujato )

'“Mendicants, it would make sense to be possessive about something that’s permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, and will last forever and ever. But do you see any such possession?” “No, sir.” “Good, mendicants! I also can’t see any such possession. It would make sense to grasp at a doctrine of self that didn’t give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. But do you see any such doctrine of self?” “No, sir.” “Good, mendicants! I also can’t see any such doctrine of self.”'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 22nd, 2023 at 4:01 PM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
Buddha nature not a functional thing; it is uncaused; it is realized as the unconditioned when the repository consciousness is emptied.

Astus wrote:
If buddha nature has no function it is practically no different from being non-existent, since it does nothing and is good for nothing. So what's the point of even supposing it?

SvatahSiddha said:
As we see in the quote from the Nibbāna Sutta, the Buddha is clear that there is the unconditioned and that it is the reason why the buddhadharma is available.

Astus wrote:
It says there is an unconditioned, it does not say it is an awareness. Rather, as the Asaṅkhatasutta ( https://suttacentral.net/sn43.12/en/sujato ) and other discourses state: 'The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called the unconditioned.'


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 22nd, 2023 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
Buddha nature is the unconditioned awareness that knows conditions.

Astus wrote:
Such an unconditioned awareness is an impossibility, as no functional thing can be unconditioned, because function itself requires relating to other things.

'There is not anywhere anything 
That ever exists without depending. 
Thus never is there anywhere 
Anything that is permanent. 
There is no functional thing without a cause,
Nor anything permanent which has a cause. 
Thus the one who knows suchness said what has
Come about causelessly does not exist. 
If the unproduced is permanent 
Because impermanent [things] are seen to be products,
Seeing that the produced exists 
Would make the permanent non-existent.'
(Catuhsataka, 9.202-204, tr Ruth Sonam)

SvatahSiddha said:
Regardless of the unfolding conditions elaborated upon, the manas, the consciousness of a self, is always first condition to arrive and last to disappear.

Astus wrote:
Manas in Yogacara has the function of misapprehending the storehouse consciousness as self, but that's a delusion, the cause of samsara, not that somehow there actually is a self. Also, Yogacara maintains the momentary and conditioned nature of all eight consciousnesses.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, December 21st, 2023 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
So by this understanding, awareness itself isn’t a “thing” but is an interactive event between subject and object, each of which lacks inherent reality.

Astus wrote:
Consciousness occurs as a result of the meeting of sense organ and sense object.

'Mendicants, consciousness exists dependent on a duality.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn35.93/en/sujato )

'Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. Ear consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds. Nose consciousness arises dependent on the nose and smells. Tongue consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and tastes. Body consciousness arises dependent on the body and touches. Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and ideas.'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato )

PadmaVonSamba said:
AV asserts that there is something aware that such contact is taking place, otherwise how would it be known? Who would hear it?

Astus wrote:
The hearer cannot precede the sound when there is nothing yet to hear, so the assumption of a constant awareness is unfounded.

PadmaVonSamba said:
While I support the Buddhist model, I still think the AV model makes some logical sense (re: OP question regarding logical refutations of a permanent self).

Astus wrote:
What is the logic here that makes sense?

PadmaVonSamba said:
AV asserts that something witnesses that stream of consciousness occurring. “I am witness to the fact that there is awareness and objects of awareness”. Does Buddhism reply that there is no witness, that no further witness to the interaction of subject and object is even necessary?

Astus wrote:
At the time of being aware of a sound there is no awareness of awareness, and when there is awareness of awareness, that is an after thought. There is no witness of a stream either, since neither the past nor the future thought is there, hence calling it a stream is simply an abstract idea.

The Buddhist description is quite straightforward. In order for some experience to occur, it takes three things: sense organ, sense object, sense consciousness. That's given as the eighteen elements. The experience then is called contact, and from contact comes feeling, etc. The triad of organ, object, and consciousness are very ordinary: one needs a functioning eye, one needs a visible object, and one needs to pay some attention. Remove any of the three and it is registered as an experience. But when it is registered, that's when it is perceived, that's when one can have a thought and intention related to that. And that's where the whole business of dependent origination, conditioning, karma, and suffering come into the picture.
On the other hand, to assume a witness behind all things, that simply clouds one's perception of what's going on and is a false escape, because having the experience of being the witness of whatever is happening is just another temporary state of mind misconstrued as self.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, December 21st, 2023 at 7:29 PM
Title: Re: Logical refutations of a permanent self
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Those are objects of awareness, Even your reaction to the taste. Buddhism says that like/dislike is changing awareness but AV argues that the change happens within the scope of awareness.

Astus wrote:
Awareness/consciousness/perception/knower/etc. is bound to, dependent on, defined by its object. An awareness that is not aware of something is simply unawareness/unconsciousness/etc. no different from inanimate matter.

'Consciousness is reckoned according to the very same condition dependent upon which it arises. Consciousness that arises dependent on the eye and sights is reckoned as eye consciousness. Consciousness that arises dependent on the ear and sounds is reckoned as ear consciousness. Consciousness that arises dependent on the nose and smells is reckoned as nose consciousness. Consciousness that arises dependent on the tongue and tastes is reckoned as tongue consciousness. Consciousness that arises dependent on the body and touches is reckoned as body consciousness. Consciousness that arises dependent on the mind and ideas is reckoned as mind consciousness.
It’s like fire, which is reckoned according to the very same condition dependent upon which it burns. A fire that burns dependent on logs is reckoned as a log fire. A fire that burns dependent on twigs is reckoned as a twig fire. A fire that burns dependent on grass is reckoned as a grass fire. A fire that burns dependent on cow-dung is reckoned as a cow-dung fire. A fire that burns dependent on husks is reckoned as a husk fire. A fire that burns dependent on rubbish is reckoned as a rubbish fire.
In the same way, consciousness is reckoned according to the very same condition dependent upon which it arises.'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato )

'The flesh and skin are not the “I,”
And neither are the body’s warmth and breath.
The cavities within the frame are not the “I,”
And “I” is not accounted for in sixfold consciousness.
If the hearing consciousness is permanent,
It follows that it’s hearing all the time.
And if there is no object, what does it cognize?
On what grounds do you call it consciousness?
If something that’s unconscious knows,
It follows that a stick has knowledge also.
Therefore in the absence of a thing to know,
It’s clear that consciousness will not arise.
If the selfsame consciousness detects a form,
At that time, why does it not hear?
Perhaps you say the sound’s no longer there.
Then neither is there consciousness of sound.'
(Bodhicaryavatara 9.59-62. tr Padmakara group)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 17th, 2023 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment as soon as possible
Content:
chonyid bardo said:
how can one achieves enlightenment in this life, as soon as possible, right now?

Astus wrote:
'With a preceding moment of deluded thought, one was an ordinary person, but with a succeeding moment of enlightened thought, one is a buddha. To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi. ... To use wisdom to contemplate all the dharmas without grasping or rejecting is to see the nature and accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 30, 31)

'If you suddenly realize right here and now that your own mind is originally a buddha, there is no dharma that needs to be attained and no practice that needs to be cultivated. This is the unsurpassed Way. This is the buddha of true suchness.'
(A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, 1.4)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 12th, 2023 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: “My mind isn’t like that”
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
My assumption when people who don’t practice meditation say things like this is that they are likely wrong, and really haven’t looked at their minds well enough to know what’s going on well, because the skills to do so are not common.

Is that fair, or just unfounded arrogance? If so, how would you reply to someone saying a practice does not make sense to them because they “don’t have that problem” when the problem being addressed is assumed to be universal by Buddhism, or even by mental-health based mindfulness practices?

Astus wrote:
It seems like the common problem that needs to be tackled by all sorts of psychological tests and questionnaires. In order to circumvent the mere idea of what one imagines and similar verbal habits the question shouldn't be a direct one, but rather something like presenting a simple situation where the answer shows clearly one's actual view.

In the https://suttacentral.net/sn42.11/en/sujato the Buddha points out the nature of suffering and its cause very well with reference to the pain caused by losing a loved one and the absence of pain when strangers die. There are other great discourses like that of a similar type, for instance the https://suttacentral.net/an3.55/en/sujato about nirvana.

At the same time, people can be and sometimes actually are quite well developed in various forms of mental powers and insight, so such a possibility should not be dismissed.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 21st, 2023 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: is there any relationship between secular law, the precepts and karma?
Content:
dawn of peace said:
could secular law or local customs directly or indirectly have influence on the working of the karma? could breaking the secular law by itself cause bad karma?

Astus wrote:
If one has done something bad there is naturally a fear of being found out (AN 6.45), and recollecting one's virtues, living free of fear brings about calm.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 21st, 2023 at 7:15 PM
Title: Re: Dealing with a world of self-centeredness and malice
Content:
Desafinado said:
Has Buddhism said anything related to this? Have you personally dealt with this problem? What do you think?

Astus wrote:
Is it the world's problem or yours? If it's the world's, what does it matter to you? If yours, then you have a problem to solve for yourself, not the world.

'According to the purity of his mind is his buddha land pure!'
(Vimalakirti Sutra, ch 1, BDK ed, p 78; also quoted in Platform Sutra, ch 3, BDK ed, p 38)

"Good friends, the ‘sentient beings of our own minds’ are the mental states of delusion, confusion, immorality, jealousy, and evil. All these are sentient beings, and we must all [undergo] automatic salvation of the selfnature. This is called true salvation.
What is ‘automatic salvation of the self-nature’? It is to use correct views to save the sentient beings of false views, afflictions, and stupidity within our own minds. Having correct views, we may use the wisdom of prajñā to destroy the sentient beings of stupidity and delusion, automatically saving each and every one of them.When the false occurs, it is saved by the correct. When delusion occurs, it is saved by enlightenment. When stupidity occurs, it is saved by wisdom. When evil occurs, it is saved by good. Salvation such as this is called true salvation."
(Platform Sutra, ch 6, BDK ed, p 48-49)

'If your minds are steep and crooked, then the buddha is [hidden] within the sentient being. If a single moment of thought is level and direct, then the sentient being becomes a buddha.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 10, BDK ed, p 90)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 12th, 2023 at 3:46 PM
Title: Re: Modern, advanced books on Zen
Content:
Desafinado said:
Which advanced books would you recommend from the past four or five decades?

Astus wrote:
I recommend advancing beyond the "Zen" title and investigate the source material that has been studied and applied by all the outstanding bodhisattvas. Normally that means studying the sutras and treatises, but likely it's easier to begin with textbook summaries.

Buddhist Thought: A Complete Introduction to the Indian Tradition by Paul Williams, Anthony Tribe, Alexander Wynne
Chinese Buddhism: A Thematic History by Chün-fang Yü
A History of Japanese Buddhism by Kenji Matsuo

Buddhism as Philosophy: An Introduction by Mark Siderits
The Golden Age of Indian Buddhist Philosophy by Jan Westerhoff

The Way to Buddhahood: Instructions from a Modern Chinese Master by Yin-shun
The Core Teachings: Essays in Basic Buddhism by Venerable Master Hsing Yun
Orthodox Chinese Buddhism: A Contemporary Chan Master's Answers to Common Questions by Chan Master Sheng Yen
Common Questions in the Practice of Buddhism by Chan Master Sheng Yen

Then one might start going through more ancient texts, like those found https://www.bdkamerica.org/tripitaka-list/, https://www.kalavinka.org/kp_main_pages/books.htm, https://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra0.html, and https://read.84000.co/section/all-translated.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 9th, 2023 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: Before Becoming
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Thank you. How does that answer the question?

Astus wrote:
The question - it seems to me - assumed that craving somehow exists on its own, in a vacuum. But that is not the case, that's how the question is answered.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, October 8th, 2023 at 3:33 PM
Title: Re: Before Becoming
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Before becoming (taking birth)  where does the craving which leads to becoming reside?

Astus wrote:
Craving, like the other elements of the twelve links, applies to the five aggregates, i.e. the being.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 3rd, 2023 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: New to zen, Question on Tao
Content:
Astus wrote:
'The main thrust of the non-Buddhist teachings, however, is to establish the conduct for humanity, not to inquire into its ultimate origin. The myriad things discussed in the two teachings are limited to the phenomenal world. Although they point to the great Dao as the root, they do not completely explain agreeability and adversity, arising and ceasing, purity and defilement, or causes and conditions. Consequently, those who practice these teachings are not aware that the doctrines are provisional and cling to them as perfect teachings.'
(Treatise on the Origin of Humanity by Guifeng Zongmi, in Three Short Treatises, BDK ed, p 149)

'People today of the great kingdom of Song mostly uphold the principle of agreement between Kongzi and Laozi and the Buddha’s truth. It is the gravest of wrong views, as later I shall expand.'
(Shizen-biku by Dogen, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 4, p 268)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 27th, 2023 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Is there really a need for a pointing out instruction frpm
Content:
Lasse said:
Look for the looker. If you find nothing, that’s the finding. You don’t need a master in a room to realise that.

Astus wrote:
That may or may not be all right. The practical question is: then what? How does that help in eliminating all the ingrained unskilful and harmful habits? How does that help in developing all the skilful and beneficial qualities?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 22nd, 2023 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Middle Way
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
distrust and avoid all kinds of extremes. Both asceticism and indulgence are bad for us when taken too far. Ditto doctrinaire fundamentalism and wishy-washy new-age-ism, loony-right politics and loony-left politics, and every other pair of extremes I can think of.

Astus wrote:
That can easily take to a false middle ground, where anything can be an extreme one simply dislikes. Apparently the Buddha made clear distinction between what is skilful/beneficial and what is unskilful/harmful (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/an3.6/en/sujato, https://suttacentral.net/mn114/en/sujato ) and that's what he used as a measure even in the case of asceticism (see: https://suttacentral.net/an10.94/en/sujato ). So just as in his first teaching ( https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/sujato ), and in others (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/mn139/en/sujato ) the middle way of practice is identified as the noble eightfold path, in other words, what and how should things be done to gain liberation. As for the first of the eightfold path, right view can be defined along the lines of knowing skilful and unskilful and in other ways too ( https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/sujato ). But it's not the case that it's left to one's common sense of what could/should be between two arbitrary positions.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 21st, 2023 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Middle Way
Content:
Rick said:
The Middle Way is a path between (a transcending of) the extremes of eternalism and nihilism. Does that betweenness/transcendence also apply to the extremes: duality and non-duality, atman and anatman, conventional and ultimate? Does it apply to ALL extremes, all conceptual opposites?

Astus wrote:
In Buddhism it applies to dependent origination in theory, and the noble eightfold path in practice. Otherwise one can conceptualise all sorts of middle ways, like between genocide and harmlessness.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 19th, 2023 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: What is the difference between Zazen & Shamatha as practised in Vajrayana?
Content:
bowsamic said:
Anyway, that's just what "mind-to-mind transmission" means. Dogen talks about it in Bendowa and in a few other places. That's why you need a teacher in Zen. I didn't expect that would be the controversial part of what I said! It is usually well known that Zen cannot be practised without a teacher. In Rinzai, they even do shikantaza as the last practise, because they think it's impossible to do shikantaza without awakening!

Astus wrote:
Shikantaza in Soto is not separated from awakening, so it cannot be that one first needs realisation before practice.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 19th, 2023 at 8:54 PM
Title: Re: Origin of Mushotoku
Content:
Tao said:
do you know when the concept won its importance in Soto? as a central idea... it was later?
Rinzai shares that importance?

Astus wrote:
I do not know.

Tao said:
BTW, is it "nothing to attain" or "non profit for oneself"? I see both ways to explain it here in Spain, but mostly they use the "non profit", and for me it's not the same...they're close, but not the same, literally is "nothig to attain", isnt it?

Astus wrote:
It is 'nothing to attain'.

'to transcend the characteristics of the various dharmas, without anything that is attained ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T48n2008_p0356c22 ): this is called the Supreme Vehicle'
(Platform Sutra, ch 7, BDK ed, p 63)

Pei Xiu asked, “How do we arouse the bodhi mind?”
The master replied, “Bodhi is not something to be attained ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T48n2012Bp0385c24 ). Right now you need only arouse this mind that is unascertainable (無所得), which is certain that there is not a single dharma that can be attained (不得). That is the bodhi mind.”
(A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, 2.10)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 19th, 2023 at 5:09 PM
Title: Re: What is the difference between Zazen & Shamatha as practised in Vajrayana?
Content:
bowsamic said:
How could it be novel when I gave three quotes from Zen masters that say the same thing?

Astus wrote:
It is novel in the idea that it 'can only really be done after your teacher points out your mind to you'. That is not a requirement stated in the quotes.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 19th, 2023 at 4:37 PM
Title: Re: Origin of Mushotoku
Content:
Tao said:
Is in the Shobogenzo ?

Astus wrote:
It's not there. The closest are chapters 18 and 19: Mind Cannot Be Grasped (心不可得).

Comes up once in Koun Ejo's https://wwzc.org/dharma-text/komyozo-zanmai-practice-treasury-luminosity: 'Practice the nothing gained ( http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T2590_.82.0458a12:0458a13.cit ) of luminosity.'

The ( https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/sutra/pdf/01/04.pdf ) has it though:

'With nothing to attain ( http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T0251_.08.0848c13:0848c13.cit ), a bodhisattva relies on prajnaparamita'


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 19th, 2023 at 3:49 PM
Title: Re: What is the difference between Zazen & Shamatha as practised in Vajrayana?
Content:
bowsamic said:
It's what I was taught by my Soto Zen teacher.

Astus wrote:
It sounds like a novel take on it, maybe influenced by Vajrayana a bit. Compare it to https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/zazen/howto/index.html.

And from a https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/leaflet/sotozen/pdf/soto_zen.pdf:

'In zazen, our body and mind is like the vast sky, receptive to all change. We just keep an upright posture and let go of any kind of thoughts. We don’t identify any of the clouds as “myself.” We understand that no cloud stays forever. And we trust that above the clouds, there is always a blue sky and bright sun. But we need to live beneath the clouds. We need to experience different kinds of weather. We try to live without being overwhelmed by any condition. This is what we learn from zazen.'

That is in agreement with what was taught by Huineng and Dogen about impermanence ('without constancy') being buddha-nature:

'In sum, “that without constancy” of grass, trees, and forests is just the buddha-nature. And “that without constancy” of the body-and-mind of a human being is the buddha-nature itself. National lands and mountains and rivers are “that without constancy” because they are the buddhanature. The truth of anuttara samyaksaṃbodhi, because it is the buddha-nature, is “that without constancy.”'
(The Buddha-nature, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 14; http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T2582_.82.0095a25:0095a25.cit )

bowsamic said:
Huineng says

Astus wrote:
Rather:
'Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree;
The bright mirror is also not a stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing—
Where could any dust be attracted?'
(Platform Sutra, ch 1, BDK ed, p 22; http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T2008_.48.0349a07:0349a07.cit )

bowsamic said:
Dogen says

Astus wrote:
https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/zazen/advice/fukanzanzeng.html on the Soto homepage is less interpretative and closer to http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T2580_.82.0001a03:0001a03.cit.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 19th, 2023 at 2:43 PM
Title: Re: What is the difference between Zazen & Shamatha as practised in Vajrayana?
Content:
bowsamic said:
Shikantaza is about resting in the pure luminous nature of your own mind and can only really be done after your teacher points out your mind to you.

Astus wrote:
On what interpretation of shikantaza do you base that? Do you have any sources for it perhaps?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 15th, 2023 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: It's Madhyamaka's methodology not its content...
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I think what you are observing is people who jump straight to Vajrayana due to the peculiarities of our time, I.e being able access empowerment very easily without any study of common Mahayana teaching. Spend time with nearly any Tibetan teacher I’m aware of and it will be a teaching topic.

Astus wrote:
Such analysis can serve as part of the preparation for vajrayana, just like contemplating the four thoughts. But is it used for its "liberative power", similarly to vajrayana?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 3:41 PM
Title: Re: It's Madhyamaka's methodology not its content...
Content:
wei wu wei said:
If all Madhyamikas agree that the ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth, or that the ultimate truth is not ultimately true, or that ultimate reality is non-conceptual, then why all the fuss and bickering over the conventional points of the teachings?

Astus wrote:
Which one is agreed upon? No ultimate truth, or the ultimate is not really ultimate, or that the ultimate is non-conceptual? That's already three versions of what is claimed to be unanimously accepted.

wei wu wei said:
It's the methodology of Madhyamaka that has liberative power--at least over conceptual grasping--not so much the content of the conventional teachings themselves.

Astus wrote:
Is there any school/tradition that actually uses madhyamaka for that purpose? Apparently so called sutrayana is mainly to read and debate about, while it's vajrayana that is the practice (with little reading or debating about).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 1:10 PM
Title: Re: only Dzogchen & Mahamudra realize nature of the mind?
Content:
Baz0 said:
The nature of the three poisons upon investigation is also unobtainable so how will Buddhists remove them?

Astus wrote:
Be realising them to be unobtainable.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: only Dzogchen & Mahamudra realize nature of the mind?
Content:
Astus wrote:
What the nature of mind is and how that is discovered is debatable and debated within Buddhism itself. What is not argued over - as far as I've seen - is that the point is to eliminate the three poisons. So the beneficial and practical question should be whether a particular method can achieve that. That is the measurement taught in the https://suttacentral.net/an3.78/en/sujato.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 5th, 2023 at 4:16 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
Astus wrote:
Abhidharmakosa 3.18 and commentary by Wangchuk Dorje (Jewels from the Treasury, p 337-338):

'There is no self—mere aggregates. 
Continuums of between states
Assembled by afflictions and karma 
Enter the womb. It’s like a lamp.

According to outsiders, it follows that there is a self because sentient beings transmigrate to different worlds, you say. This does not pervade, because there is no self that accepts or rejects in the internal aggregates that make up the being.
Well then, what provides continuity between the state of death and rebirthlinking? you ask. There is merely the continuum of the aggregates themselves. Labeling that continuum as the “self ” is not refuted, because it is suitable to call it by any name. The aggregates alone have no power to transmigrate to new aggregates without stopping, because continuums of the between states that are fully ripened results and personally made results assembled by afflictions and karma enter the womb. It is like a lamp that is momentary but burns in a continuum of moments.'

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh226.html#UT22084-063-007-73 -14, also quoted in Madhyamakavatarabhasya 6.40:

'Great king, no phenomenon whatsoever transmigrates from this world to another world, yet there are the manifestations of death and birth.
Great king, the cessation of the final consciousness is known as death. The arising of the first consciousness is known as birth. Great king, the moment the final consciousness ceases, it does not go anywhere. The moment the first consciousness pertaining to birth arises, it also does not come from anywhere. Why is that? It is because they are devoid of essential nature.
Great king, the final consciousness is empty of final consciousness, transmigration after death is empty of transmigration after death, action is empty of action, the first consciousness is empty of the first consciousness, and birth is empty of birth, yet actions manifest without being lost.'

But Candrakirti ( https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=record&vid=1113&mid=1927253 ) writes how various provisional teachings are acceptable:

'The kinds of students who have previously had prolonged exposure to misguided (tīrthika) views will struggle to assimilate the profound nature of things (dharmatā), and become frightened when hearing statements such as, ‘I am not, nor will I be ….’ When from the very outset they relate to the instructions of the Teacher like they would the edge of a precipice, backing away from it, they will not accomplish the supreme goal. By initially presenting them with such topics as the substrate consciousness, their misguided beliefs are counteracted as they are steered towards the greater purpose of these instructions. Since they will later, when gaining an unmistaken understanding of the teachings, naturally abandon these, it is definitely a beneficial approach and in no way mistaken.'

So, if some are frightened by the concept of nirvana as if it were annihilation, it is acceptable to talk of some special form of mind, like buddha-nature and such, in order to keep them on the path, like in the case of Nanda and the heavenly maidens ( https://suttacentral.net/ud3.2/en/sujato ), or in the parable of the three carts ( https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html#UT22084-051-001-711 ).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 4th, 2023 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: What is the difference between Zazen & Shamatha as practised in Vajrayana?
Content:
Ophidian Rainbow said:
What exactly are the differences between skikantaza and shamatha as practiced by Vajrayana Buddhists?

Astus wrote:
A lot. Shamatha is a method used to tame the mind in order to be fit for vipashyana, to make it pliant and workable. Shikantaza in Soto Zen is the entirety of Buddhism, it is buddhahood embodied in the present, the essence and the goal of the whole of Buddhadharma.
In shamatha one learns to keep the mind in a particular state, to make it calm and focused. In shikantaza it is about letting body and mind drop, in other words, to recognise and realise immediately that there is nothing that could be held on, that all phenomena are pure suchness as they are, so there is nothing to improve and nothing to remove.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 4th, 2023 at 3:06 PM
Title: Re: What is the difference between Zazen & Shamatha as practised in Vajrayana?
Content:
Ophidian Rainbow said:
What are the differences between Zazen and Shamatha as practised by Vajrayana buddhists? Is there a difference?

Astus wrote:
Zazen in general simply means seated meditation, so that can be practically anything done while sitting. So to tell the difference it should be something more specific, like http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020&wr_id=53 or https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms01.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 3rd, 2023 at 2:35 PM
Title: Re: is Dharmakirti's epistemology congruent with Dzogchen?
Content:
Baz0 said:
simpler summaries that are well explained are preferred at this point.

Astus wrote:
You might look into https://buddhanature.tsadra.org/index.php/Books/Mipham%27s_Sword_of_Wisdom


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 1st, 2023 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Also, any time one wasn’t grasping or thinking “me” one would be experiencing nibbana.

Astus wrote:
That is actually the case, to a certain extent. It is expressed by the various uses of vimutti and vimokkha in the suttas.

It is more clearly stated in the Platform Sutra, e.g. 'A single moment’s stupidity and prajñā is eradicated, a single moment’s wisdom and prajñā is generated.' and 'When one is enlightened for [even] a single moment, then sentient beings are buddhas.'

And from a Theravada side, see this essay: https://www.suanmokkh.org/books/84.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 1st, 2023 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
Shaiksha said:
Actually, the goal of the whole path is the ending of suffering (dukkha).

Astus wrote:
How is there a difference between being free from suffering and being free from grasping?

Here's a series of six discourses giving six different goals: https://suttacentral.net/sn45.42-47/en/sujato.

There are also variations on the four noble truths (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato ), one commonly mentioned being where suffering is changed to defilements (āsava), e.g. DN 2, DN 10, MN 100, MN 101, MN 112.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 1st, 2023 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
According to you, I wouldn’t even be aware that it had ended.

Astus wrote:
Defilements are specific mental factors (i.e. the three root unskilful qualities of greed, hate, and delusion, and their derivatives) affecting how one acts in body, words, and mind. It is not the entirety of body and mind (i.e. the five aggregates). Their presence, just as their absence, can be well discerned by https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=main&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin#34.1, just as it is recommended in the https://suttacentral.net/sn35.153/en/sujato. So why wouldn't you be aware of their end?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 1st, 2023 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Then there’s no point in practice or attaining.

Astus wrote:
It’s because mind is conditional that there is a way to remove defilements and thus end suffering. How is that not meaningful and worthwhile?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 31st, 2023 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Yeah. The Buddha has a mind.
That’s what I’ve been saying.
duuuuhhh!!!

Astus wrote:
A mind like all sentient beings, conditioned and impermanent.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 31st, 2023 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
stong gzugs said:
This sort of metacognitive awareness is necessary for all sorts of everyday activities, particularly those related to self-knowledge.

Astus wrote:
That is very much within the functions and capabilities of the mental aggregates. No need to posit any independent, unchanging awareness on top of them.

stong gzugs said:
If vows that give rise to the form bodies are conditioned and impermanent, and Buddhas don't generate new karma, then eventually they should disappear into emptiness/dharmakaya?

Astus wrote:
Shakyamuni died, didn't he? But according to the three bodies theory, he was merely an emanation, not a real entity anyway. Can unreal entities appear and disappear?
As for the other side of the issue, since bodhisattvas accumulate immeasurable merits, how could those ever be exhausted?

stong gzugs said:
Are you saying that when the rope looks like a snake, it is a snake?

Astus wrote:
Nobody gets scared by a rope that looks like a snake, only by what looks like a snake. Then if it's analysed, a snake turns out to be a rope, then a rope to be threads, and the threads to be ultimately nothing at all.

stong gzugs said:
the screen doesn't depend on the projections: its main quality is its whiteness that allows it to become a useful substance for projection.

Astus wrote:
It is called a screen - and not a handkerchief or a tablecloth - because it is used to project movies on it. If whiteness were its main quality, then it would cease to be a screen the moment it no longer looked white, in which case it couldn't function as a screen. Thus assuming an unchanging substance contradicts functionality.

stong gzugs said:
Likewise, awareness doesn't depend on its contents, but the contents depend on awareness.

Astus wrote:
If awareness did not depend on the fact that it is aware of something, that means unawareness is also awareness, as insentient things are not aware of anything either.

stong gzugs said:
In this view, it's the unchanging nature of the screen that makes it useful.

Astus wrote:
Quite the opposite, because the white screen can appear as all sorts of colours when projected on it, it means that its changeability is what makes it useful. If it were to just stay white, no movies would be visible on it.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 31st, 2023 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I think many will disagree with you here.

Astus wrote:
'The Buddha has a body
with which he senses touch.
But he has no desire and greed,
for his mind is well freed.
The Buddha has a mind
with which he knows thought.
But he has no desire and greed,
for his mind is well freed.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn35.232/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 31st, 2023 at 5:14 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
Shaiksha said:
So, if I can modify the translation, it will be something along the line: attaining the final nibbana without taking up any more fuel. It is a huge difference (for me at least) to the term: extinguishment by not grasping.

Astus wrote:
Either case, the goal of the whole path remains being free from grasping.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 31st, 2023 at 4:50 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
So, now you are saying awareness is not a  composite?

Astus wrote:
The aggregates are composite, so awareness - being the aggregate of consciousness - is composite.

PadmaVonSamba said:
No experience of the end of afflictions, etc.

Astus wrote:
How couldn't there be? Not conceiving an experience as me and mine is not the same as not having any. Ordinary beings are also capable of recognising if their hatred has disappeared, even if it's merely temporary for them.

PadmaVonSamba said:
So, how is that different from nihilism or the materialist view that when you die, the lights just go out and that’s it?

Astus wrote:
The common materialist view, in other words annihilationism, is based on grasping at the aggregates, on having the misconception of there being a real person/being/knower/agent, that at one point (death) ceases to exist. If there is no grasping at the body, or the mind, or both, then there is no worry of ceasing to exist either. If the consciousness is seen for what and how it is, then it is clear that it does not last even for a minute and ceases to be uncountable times during a single day ( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato ).

PadmaVonSamba said:
Are you saying that awareness cannot occur by itself, but only as a component of subject-object consciousness?

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is generally counted as six types according to the six types of objects it can be conscious of. Whether someone conceives there to be a subject/me and an object/mine is another matter. But regardless if one still has or doesn't have a self-view, consciousness arises based on conditions.

PadmaVonSamba said:
his consciousness is conditional and thus by his own definition, unsatisfactory

Astus wrote:
Even in the case of a buddha consciousness is conditioned and unsatisfactory, just like the body. The distinctive part is that a buddha does not conceive them to be his or himself.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 31st, 2023 at 4:21 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
stong gzugs said:
When you say a buddha doesn't identify with compounded phenomena, who exactly is it that isn't identifying with compounded phenomena?

Astus wrote:
Identification - conceptions of 'this is mine, I am this, this is my self' - or in other words, grasping at the aggregates ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.151/en/sujato ) is not by a distinct person/being/knower/agent, but it is an activity, a factor of mind, thus included in the formations aggregate.

“But sir, who grasps?”
“That’s not a fitting question,” said the Buddha.
“I don’t speak of one who grasps. If I were to speak of one who grasps, then it would be fitting to ask who grasps. But I don’t speak like that. Hence it would be fitting to ask: ‘What is a condition for grasping?’ And a fitting answer to this would be: ‘Craving is a condition for grasping. Grasping is a condition for continued existence.’ … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.12/en/sujato )

stong gzugs said:
If that experiencer/awareness is reducible to compounded phenomena (i.e., skandhas), it cannot last and be satisfactory and therefore the notion of a buddha is undermined.

Astus wrote:
It is an incorrect notion of a buddha if it is taken to be the aggregates, or something other than the aggregates ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/sujato, also MMK 22), just as it is incorrect to assume a person/being/knower/agent as identical with or different from the aggregates.

stong gzugs said:
If you're saying that buddhahood is the cessation of all consciousness (which are compounded), then you have to explain how buddhas can act to benefit all beings without any thought (a reliance on habits of mind learned previously won't work, because habits alone cannot shape how to interact in novel situations, which all require ongoing selection and updating of prior learning in memory, which require the consciousnesses) and on an ongoing basis (one could say it's based on the vows one takes, but those vows like all volitional actions are also impermanent and will not last infinitely).

Astus wrote:
In the three bodies interpretation of buddhahood, dharmakaya is the essence that is suchness, emptiness, etc. For the rupakaya, that's the product of vows and merits manifesting according to the needs of beings. The former is uncompounded but not awareness, the latter is awareness but compounded. As for existing infinitely, that is no different from ordinary beings that are also without any uncompounded essence but still have been wandering in samsara without beginning.

stong gzugs said:
And with all of these, it becomes very hard to understand how any such buddha could survive the death of the physical body, such that buddhas will only be of benefit for sentient beings for a limited time that they can interact with us physically.

Astus wrote:
Naturally, and such worries are based on conceiving a buddha as a person/being/knower/agent. This type of worry is addressed in the https://suttacentral.net/an7.54/en/sujato.

stong gzugs said:
Because the cloth remains white even after the movie ends.

Astus wrote:
The cloth changes colour according to conditions, so it is not an example of an unconditioned substance/substrate. A ball rolls if pushed, and then stops. Is the true nature of a ball to be stationary because it was so previously too? The cloth looks white if the appropriate light is present, looks different if the light changes, and has no colour at all if there is no light. And if the cloth is coloured not by light but by paint, or just gets dirty, it will be more difficult to make it white again.

stong gzugs said:
Substances can be in asymmetric dependence relations

Astus wrote:
If it is in any relation, it is not independent. A drop of rain or a crystal is not a prism unless it functions as such, and that function depends on temporary conditions. Similarly, it is not awareness unless it is aware of something, hence the distinction between eye-consciousness and ear-consciousness.

stong gzugs said:
this sutta is about people getting attached to blissful jhanic states

Astus wrote:
It was meant as an example where people can grasp at all sorts of views.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 30th, 2023 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Person 1, Buddhist, some time later: So, if we turn to the next chapter in the Mahāyāna-sūtrālamkāra, we'll see that after you realize the dharmakaya upon death and become a Buddha, you will emanate countless forms to guide sentient being towards maturity...

Astus wrote:
The trikaya concept has its own twists and turns, but to say that ' you will emanate' is somewhat problematic.

stong gzugs said:
Nothing substantive changes about the cloth whether images are projected upon it or not.

Astus wrote:
The cloth changes its look, otherwise there would be no images. To claim that hidden behind that it remains white is claiming that something can be white without looking white, in which case even black is white.

stong gzugs said:
The claim "we're the only ones who encourage letting go of attachment and identity" unfortunately, and ironically, for some people becomes an identity that they get attached to.

Astus wrote:
“Ānanda, take a mendicant who practices like this: ‘It might not be, and it might not be mine. It will not be, and it will not be mine. I am giving up what exists, what has come to be.’ In this way they gain equanimity. They approve, welcome, and keep clinging to that equanimity. Their consciousness relies on that and grasps it. A mendicant with grasping does not become extinguished.”
“But sir, what is that mendicant grasping?”
“The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.”
“Sir, it seems that mendicant is grasping the best thing to grasp!”
( https://suttacentral.net/mn106/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 30th, 2023 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
My monk friend said that after nibbana, there is just awareness.
You stated that even a Buddha’s awareness arises from skandhas.

Astus wrote:
Awareness is part of the skandhas, not arising from them.

PadmaVonSamba said:
I’m bringing up the fact that according to the Buddha, all impermanent things are unsatisfactory, and as stated (in the four seals) all compounded things are impermanent.
But if that’s the case, and Buddha’s awareness arises from compounded things (skandhas) then nirvana would be unsatisfactory.

Astus wrote:
Because all compounded are unsatisfactory, a buddha does not identify with any of them. Nirvana is not awareness, it is the ending of all afflictions, of greed, hate, and delusion.

PadmaVonSamba said:
So, how do you reconcile this with your assertion that a buddy’s awareness still involves the Skandhas process?
What I’m saying is that the Skandhas apply to becoming within the cycle of samsara, and not to a Buddha’s awareness.

Astus wrote:
Awareness is the aggregate of consciousness, there is no other type of awareness but what falls within the aggregate of consciousness, and the aggregate of consciousness functions with the other mental aggregates. Just as a buddha has a physical body like other humans, so he has a mind as well. The distinction between a buddha and ordinary beings is that the former does not misconstrue the aggregates as 'mine, me, my self', as explained in detail in the https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato, and in brief for instance in the https://suttacentral.net/sn22.7/en/sujato. It's the aggregates that should be completely understood and it's the ending of greed, hate, and delusion that is complete understanding ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.106/en/sujato ).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 30th, 2023 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
Shaiksha said:
So, I don't think that "free from attachments (I prefer to use clinging/grasping as the sutta uses - no word of attachment in that sutta you quoted, by the way) and identification" is the point of the practice.

Astus wrote:
The ultimate goal is ending all grasping.

'The purpose of leading the spiritual life under the Buddha is extinguishment by not grasping.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn45.48/en/sujato )

'It’s good that you understand that I’ve taught the Dhamma for the purpose of complete extinguishment by not grasping. For that is indeed the purpose.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn35.75/en/sujato )

That's what knowledge is for.

'Purification of knowledge and vision is only for the sake of extinguishment by not grasping.'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn24/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 30th, 2023 at 5:45 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Freedom from attachment and identification? Buddhism doesn’t have a monopoly on that.

Astus wrote:
Certainly no monopoly. But is there any other system/teaching where all four types of grasping mentioned in the quote are eliminated?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 30th, 2023 at 4:55 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
stong gzugs said:
This is an interesting argument. Every thoughtful person and all cultures across the history we know of have wondered about what happens to us after we die. It's one thing to say that we don't want to get lost in a thicket of views, etc. because the answer itself isn't necessary for enlightenment. But it's quite another to say to even think about these questions is to be grasping and un-enlightened. Is there such a danger of wrong-think?

Astus wrote:
It's not about afterlife in general, but the fate of a liberated being in particular. That topic is counted among the undeclared points on which there is a collection of discourses in the Abyākatasaṁyutta ( https://suttacentral.net/sn44 ), but is also discussed elsewhere, like the https://suttacentral.net/mn63/en/sujato and the https://suttacentral.net/mn72/en/sujato. The topic is also addressed in chapter 22 of the Mulamadhyamakakarika by Nagarjuna.

stong gzugs said:
without the screen there couldn't be any of those attributes, without the mirror there couldn't be any reflections, and so on. So, I disagree with your logic there, the underlying and unchanging substance is absolutely needed, and is not the same thing as not existing at all.

Astus wrote:
That shows the interactive and dependent nature of the screen. After all, it would not be called a screen if no movies could be watched on it. That's why it is not an unchanging substance, but rather a dependent factor.

stong gzugs said:
Any studies/books you'd personally recommend?

Astus wrote:
There's a collection on https://buddhanature.tsadra.org/index.php/Topics/Buddha-nature_of_insentient_things you may check.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 30th, 2023 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Oh I think there’s more to it than just that.
Lots of paths can do that much.

Astus wrote:
Not really.

'There are some other ascetics and brahmins who claim to propound the complete understanding of all kinds of grasping, but they don’t really. They describe the complete understanding of grasping at sensual pleasures, views, and precepts and observances, but not theories of a self. Why is that? Because those gentlemen don’t truly understand this one thing. That’s why they claim to propound the complete understanding of all kinds of grasping, but they don’t really.'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn11/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 30th, 2023 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
at the same time, all composite phenomena are unsatisfactory. If the awakened awareness of a Buddha was a composite, then enlightenment would be unsatisfactory.
Then what would be the point of practice?

Astus wrote:
The awakened body of a buddha is also composite. The point of practice is to be free from attachment and identification.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 29th, 2023 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Yes, yes, but this just gets us right back to the start of the thread. If enlightenment is sheer negation/extinction/extinguishment, as it is described in some Theravada sources, then the extinction of grasping, etc. as the causes for becoming will lead to a lack of becoming (which is thus defined as enlightenment). To use the Buddha's example, there's a fire burning because of grasping, and enlightenment is the extinguishing of the fire.

Astus wrote:
Enlightenment is the end of defilements even in Mahayana.

'Some who objectify it think that nirvana is something existent, but it is not like that. ... If nirvana were something existent, then it would have to be something compound. If it were something compound, then eventually it would perish. ... It is the complete exhaustion of all thoughts which grasp existence and nonexistence. Nirvana is beyond conceptualization and is inexpressible. ... Therefore, nirvana is merely pacification of engagement in conceptual thought. It does not exist as any phenomena whatsoever — rising, cessation, abandonment, attainment, and so forth.'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 245-246)

stong gzugs said:
But if enlightenment has positive characteristics, like the continuity of some type of first-person experience, so you aren't a zombie while living and don't just disappear after dying, then you end up with a lot of special pleading for how such an experience can be cultivated but permanent and what the basis is for such experience, and this is what leads those like Thanissaro Bhikkhu to posit an unconditioned mind, and so on. The Buddha treated all of this as a question he refused to answer as I'm sure you know.

Astus wrote:
Enlightenment has numerous positive characteristics, in fact, it's the most positive thing there is. But to wonder about the continuity or discontinuity of a liberated being is still grasping at an entity.

“Vaccha, the wanderers of other religions regard the eye like this: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’ They regard the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind like this: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’
That’s why, when asked, they declare one of those answers to be true.
The Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha regards the eye like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ He regards the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’
That’s why, when asked, he does not declare one of those answers to be true.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn44.7/en/sujato )

stong gzugs said:
Nobody in the Vedantic traditions I know of claims that awareness can be ignorant, it's rather the same argument made in Mahayana texts about adventitious defilements, where it's not that the sun has stopped shining, just that some clouds have arisen.

Astus wrote:
Just as the sun isn't bothered by clouds, an unaffected awareness needs no liberation. Then it remains to be answered who then is the one who misidentifies himself. Do clouds mistake themselves to be clouds? But that's not a mistake, as they are actually clouds.

stong gzugs said:
So the white screen itself doesn't liberate us, but when there's a pause in the movie (as through meditation, for instance), and we see the white screen for what it is, then the ignorance is overcome by this newfound vidya or knowledge of the white screen (awareness), and we no longer fool ourselves into thinking that the screen changes colors. This is also why the argument claiming that an awareness that isn't changing can't be a cause for liberation doesn't hold much weight IMO.

Astus wrote:
Whose ignorance is overcome? Isn't the white screen the symbol of our very essence, the ultimate knower? Also, as long as there are all the colours of a movie on the screen, it is not a white screen. In other words, if there is a substance independent of the attributes, then the substance is not related to the attributes, nor does it have any qualities to account for, so it is not different from not existing at all.

stong gzugs said:
Interesting. What sources are you relying on that claim insentient objects have bodhi as their nature?

Astus wrote:
Bodhi is freedom from defilements, and since the nature of all instentient objects is emptiness, they are in that sense bodhi. Otherwise, just in case you are interested in it, there are studies and books about the topic of the buddha-nature of insentients.

'In sum, “that without constancy” of grass, trees, and forests is just the buddha-nature. And “that without constancy” of the body-and-mind of a human being is the buddha-nature itself. National lands and mountains and rivers are “that without constancy” because they are the buddha-nature. The truth of anuttara samyaksaṃbodhi, because it is the buddha-nature, is “that without constancy.” The great state of parinirvāṇa, because it is “that without constancy,” is the buddha-nature.'
(The Buddha-nature by Dogen, in Shobogenzo, BDK ed, vol 2, p 14)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 29th, 2023 at 2:57 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
That’s like saying that if the original nature of the mind is bodhi (awakened) there would be no cause for samsara to occur.

Astus wrote:
Even a toenail's original nature is bodhi, as it is not inherently defiled. Defilement is the identification with and grasping at a toenail. Similarly, to mistake the mind/awareness as something that can be rightly called one's essence, one's true identity, is ignorance that keeps one from being free from suffering.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 29th, 2023 at 2:50 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Is enlightenment the result of cultivation? If so, shouldn't it be impermanent by definition? If it's impermanent, then buddhas can become sentient beings again, so why bother?

Astus wrote:
Enlightenment is the result of cultivation, as it's stated by one of the most fundamental doctrines: the four noble truths. It is not impermanent, as it is the ending of the causes of suffering, and without causes there is no reason for it to reemerge.

stong gzugs said:
Namely, the explanations are those like: awareness doesn't have to be created, but realized (which some people can do instantly (i.e., cig car bas) but others need to paradoxically work at), that such realization is about overcoming ignorance rather than creating something new, and ignorance is basically a fundamental misidentification that treats the contents of our experience as real and external to us which reifies us into limited subjects, where all of this occurs analogously to how the presence of clouds doesn't mean the sun doesn't exist and so a practice that scatters the clouds doesn't create the sun but simply reveals it, etc.

Astus wrote:
If awareness can be ignorant, then it is not a good idea to merely arrive at identifying with such an unreliable thing. If awareness cannot be ignorant, then it cannot mistakenly identify with the contents.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 29th, 2023 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
stong gzugs said:
The argument is that awareness isn't some temporary state, and that as the result of studying, contemplating, and practicing (shravana, manana, nididhyasana), you actually can maintain awareness continuously: not only throughout your waking life, but also as the waking world collapses into the dream world and into deep sleep, such that you never drift off but maintain lucidity throughout; that you can maintain awareness continuously during the void before a thought arises, noticing its arising, and seeing its passing away into void; etc.

Astus wrote:
If such a continuous awareness is a result of cultivation, then it is itself a temporary creation.

stong gzugs said:
In no sense is awareness itself contingent upon whatever thought or state of existence (waking, dreaming, deep sleep) the mind is entering.

Astus wrote:
An awareness that exists without being aware is not awareness.

stong gzugs said:
Moreover, the key argument is that awareness is not really the "witness" on the subject side of a subject-object mental duality, but a basic self-illuminating space in which all dualistic mental activity occurs.

Astus wrote:
If it were self-illuminating, it would not need discovery, nor cultivation to maintain it.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 28th, 2023 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
stong gzugs said:
This debate about awareness can be summed up quite nicely by Duckworth in terms of a distinction from phenomenology (favored by Yogacara and Vedanta) vs. ontology (favored by Madhyamaka)

Astus wrote:
It can remain a phenomenological observation that no matter what state of mind, no matter what experience it is, it necessarily arises and passes away. So, even if one feels like being the observer behind whatever happens, that is itself a temporary feeling that is not always there.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 28th, 2023 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
How do you know that you know this?

Astus wrote:
In the same way one can know other things: experience, logic, tradition (oral/textual).

Practically, if one is engaged in some activity, it takes extra effort to monitor how one is engaged, and that can even disturb one's original activity. This is easier to discern when an activity requires a high level of attention.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 28th, 2023 at 2:44 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
You can observe it for yourself.
You can observe yourself observing it.
You are aware that you are aware.
And everything you observe is still an object of awareness.
The fact of observation,
simply because there are objects of awareness,
proves that there is awareness.
You can quote as many sutras as you like.
It  doesn’t change that fact.

Astus wrote:
Awareness of awareness is not observed. First of all, it does not happen simultaneously but one thinks of thinking, recognises recognition, conceives conception, perceives perception, etc. as a second thought/.../perception following the first instance. Secondly, if you stipulate that everything can only be an object of awareness and not awareness itself, that already rules out the possibility of ever becoming aware of awareness. So, in both cases awareness is nothing more than another idea. Furthermore, such an approach of putting thought upon thought, mind upon mind, head upon head (the parable of Yajñadatta in Surangama Sutra IV.4, p 159), merely maintains the confused chain of thoughts.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 28th, 2023 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
There is still awareness of that awareness of mental phenomena.

Astus wrote:
There is not and cannot be. That type of self-awareness requires the presence of multiple minds, so it's regularly rejected. It is also quite impractical as it merely ends up in an infinite series of awareness of awareness.

'The Guardian of the World himself has said
That mind cannot be seen by mind.
In just the same way, he has said,
The sword’s edge cannot cut the sword.
“But,” you say, “it’s like the flame
That perfectly illuminates itself.”
The flame, in fact, can never light itself.
And why? Because the darkness never dims it!'
(Bodhicaryavatara 9.17-19, tr Padmakara)

PadmaVonSamba said:
The advaitaists may be wrong about an ultimate self or atman, but I think they are correct that anything one may point to as awareness is still an object of awareness.

Astus wrote:
That is upholding an insurmountable gap between sense organ and sense object, imagining them to be substantially distinct. If that were so, then they couldn't actually meet, and the whole relationship of subject-object would be meaningless.

'One thing cannot meet itself
And other does not meet with other.
Neither meeting nor the met with
Nor the thing that meets exist at all.'
(Mulamadhyamakakarika, 14.8, tr Padmakara)

Here is a useful explanation of what mind is:

'The Pali word citta is derived from the verbal root citi, to cognize, to know. The commentators define citta in three ways: as agent, as instrument, and as activity. As the agent, citta is that which cognizes an object ((ārammaṇaṃ cintetī ti cittaṃ). As the instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying mental factors cognize the object (etena cintetī ti cittaṃ). As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of cognizing the object (cintanamattaṃ cittaṃ).
The third definition, in terms of sheer activity, is regarded as the most adequate of the three: that is, citta is fundamentally an activity or process of cognizing or knowing an object. It is not an agent or instrument possessing actual being in itself apart from the activity of cognizing. The definitions in terms of agent and instrument are proposed to refute the wrong view of those who hold that a permanent self or ego is the agent and instrument of cognition. The Buddhist thinkers point out, by means of these definitions, that it is not a self that performs the act of cognition, but citta or consciousness. This citta is nothing other than the act of cognizing, and that act is necessarily impermanent, marked by rise and fall.'
( https://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp304s_Bfodhi_Comprehensive_Manual_of_Abhidhamma.pdf by Bhikkhu Bodhi, p 27-29; see also The Theravada Abhidhamma by Y. Karunadasa, ch 5)

And this one might also help:

'In the Buddhist discussion of mind, then, we are not talking about some sort of "thing" or organ that is in our head, like the brain. Nor are we talking about a space, as is implied by the Western expression, "Imagine in your mind this or that" – as if mind were a stage or room in our head through which thoughts parade or in which memories are stored. Rather, we are talking about some sort of occurrence that is happening on the basis of the brain and nervous system.
What is happening when we see, hear or think something? Although we may be able to describe the occurrence biochemically or electrochemically, we can also describe it subjectively. This latter is what we mean by "mind" in Buddhism. When we see, hear, think or emotionally feel something, there is an experience from moment to moment. This is what is happening. Furthermore, experience always has contents. An equivalent way of saying that is: "Mind always has an object." In fact, "mind" in Sanskrit and Tibetan is also called "that which has an object."
...
Experience always has contents. We cannot have an experience without experiencing something. A thought does not exist without a thinking of the thought, and no one can think without thinking a thought. Nondual, then, means that in any moment, these two things – mind and its object, or experience and its contents – always come together as one entity. Putting this in simple, everyday language, we can say they always come together in the same package. There cannot be one without the other. Therefore, in Buddhism "mind" always refers to experience with contents.
...
What occurs when we experience something? There is the giving rise to something. For ease of expression, we need to say, "mind gives rise to something." This is preferable to saying, "something arises." "Something arises" puts too much emphasis on what is happening from the side of the object, whereas the accent needs to be more on the subjective side. The phrase, "mind gives rise to something," however, also has its shortcomings. It is just a convenient manner of expression. Mind is not an entity or "thing," so there is nothing that is actually an agent giving rise to anything. The word, "mind," is simply a term mentally labeled onto the occurrence of the subjective event of the giving rise to something.
...
In summary, mind in Buddhism refers to experience, namely the mere arising and cognitive engaging with the contents of experience. The continuity of experience is known as the mind-stream, or "mental-continuum." It is always individual, with each moment of experience following from previous moments of experience according to the karmic laws of behavioral cause and effect. There is order in the universe, and "my" experience is never "your" experience. If I experience eating a meal, I and not you will next experience the physical sensation of being full. Buddhism does not posit a universal or collective mind.
The never-ceasing, moment-to-moment event of arising and engaging that constitutes experience, then, refers to the arising of a sight and merely seeing it, the arising of a sound and merely hearing it, the arising of a thought and merely thinking it, the arising of an emotion and merely feeling it, and so on. This is the conventional nature of mind – it gives rise to things and apprehends them. Its deepest nature is its voidness, namely that it is devoid of existing in any impossible manner, from being a physical entity itself up to involving a solid, concrete subject, content or experience. Such a mind, then, with these two true natures – or "two truths" – is the topic of mahamudra meditation.'
( https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/vajrayana/mahamudra-advanced/the-practical-application-of-mahamudra/the-initial-level-of-mahamudra-meditation )


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 27th, 2023 at 6:31 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
What are its components?

Astus wrote:
Awareness of mental phenomena is what's called mental consciousness, it arises with the standard universal mental factors (mainly the other three mental aggregates), and the mental factors specific to the situation.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 27th, 2023 at 5:58 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
So, what are you saying comes into contact with a concept of not seeing? Consciousness?

Astus wrote:
Of course, the sixth type of consciousness is mental consciousness, as https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=673446#p673446.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 27th, 2023 at 4:28 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
But answer the question: if you can’t see, how do you know you can’t see?

Astus wrote:
Just as one knows there is no whale in the room. One has the concept of a whale/seeing, and recognises its absence.

PadmaVonSamba said:
In one of the talks given by Bankei, he mentions to those in attendance that there are birds singing just outside of where they are gathered, and that our already illuminated “unborn Buddha mind” is aware of that even though we are not consciously listening to them.

Astus wrote:
If there is no attention paid, one is not consciously aware, hence forms neither thought nor intention to it, then it’s like being unaware of its presence. Thus no relationship is established, no action/karma occurs, and has no part in the chain of suffering/liberation.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Again, it’s like how a the true nature of a mirror is always that of reflectivity regardless of whether an object is placed before it or not.

Astus wrote:
If the function of awareness/reflection is lacking, it cannot be considered aware/reflective. That’s why consciousness without object is impossible.

PadmaVonSamba said:
And this includes being obstructed by that duality which forms the basis for samsaric attachment: the skandhas.

Astus wrote:
Skandhas are not hindrances themselves, nor is there a separate awareness or consciousness.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 27th, 2023 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
In the Surangama Sutra, the Buddha asks, if you cover your eyes so that you can’t see, then how do you know you can’t see?
(There’s no contact between sense organ and sense object).

Astus wrote:
Just as one can know that there is not a whale in the bathroom. It does not take any special, constant, independent awareness, rather it requires standard mental functioning.

By the way, the point of the Surangama Sutra is not that consciousness is somehow unconditioned, as assumed by the Sankhya and Vedanta (see ch II.9, p 72-74 in BTTS new translation), but rather that the nature of consciousness - like the nature of everything else - is beyond the extremes of being and nonbeing, in other words, it is empty. See also https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=658121#p658121.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Actually, we are constantly aware of millions of bits of sensory data that we don’t pay attention to.

Astus wrote:
That might be so on some level, however, it makes no difference. Buddhism is about how suffering arises and how it ceases. Religious, philosophical, and scientific theories and systems about the body, the mind, the earth, or outer space are quite irrelevant.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 26th, 2023 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Do you think that, during any given moment, one can be aware of anything that they are not thinking about, that they are not actively cognizing?

Astus wrote:
That depends on what you define as being aware, thinking, and cognising.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Since there is no point of contact between my awareness and things which are not happening, then if I experience them not happening, how am I aware that they are not happening?

Astus wrote:
What doesn’t happen is not experienced. One can merely imagine or recognise conceptually the absence of something, based on one’s memory or imagination.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 26th, 2023 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I understand that for an instance of consciousness to arise, there is the meeting of subject and object (usually through the sense faculties) and that what the experience of consciousness is, is this interaction.
Would you say that this is correct?

Astus wrote:
Not really. Consciousness arises because of the meeting of sense organ and sense object, like eye and form. Then the three together produces contact, when the very basic impression happens, and then necessarily come other factors, like feeling, attention, and intention. That can be followed either by craving/hating/confusion if ignorance is present, or no defilement if there is wisdom. That is the crucial part where one can gain suffering or liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 25th, 2023 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
What I’m referring to is this statement and others like it:
“Great Perfection texts can define the liberation of sentient beings as timeless, meaning that the state of liberation is their unconditioned essential state. “

Astus wrote:
The 'state of liberation' is not an awareness or consciousness, it is simply the original purity of emptiness, that things are already such(ness). Just as it can be said that all conditioned appearances are impermanent, that is their universal characteristic, however, as long as that is not known clearly, beings remain attracted to and enchanted by them. But the fault is not in the impermanent things, they themselves cause no problems, it's the deluded, ignorant mind that causes suffering. So in that sense everything is already pure.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 25th, 2023 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
So, what do you think about the idea of RigPa?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa

Astus wrote:
In dzogchen it means knowing the nature of mind. It's not an unconditioned awareness, not even a synonym for consciousness, but rather a specific type of wisdom.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 25th, 2023 at 4:22 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
It isn't 'independent'; it is the root of your own (and every other) awareness. It is buddha nature before it encounters conditions.

Astus wrote:
If it isn't independent then it is conditioned, so there is no time when it is not involved with conditions.

SvatahSiddha said:
It's not an ultimate self; it is awareness experienced before self (manas) begins.

Astus wrote:
There is no self, merely the misconception of a self. If by awareness you mean the wisdom of not conceiving a self, then that is not before the misconception arises, but rather after one has realised the emptiness of the aggregates.

SvatahSiddha said:
That is the realization of a Buddha; it is found when the repository consciousness empties and the perfected mode of reality shines forth.

Astus wrote:
That Yogacara type of description is fine, it says the same: the wisdom after realising the twofold emptiness.

SvatahSiddha said:
I'm still interested in any source in the buddhadharma you might quote from that holds awareness itself as dependent on conditions.

Astus wrote:
As you stated above, awareness is not independent. As for consciousness (what is conscious/aware of things), with the other aggregates being dependent and conditioned, statements of that have been quoted directly from the Buddha in this thread already, like https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=674037#p674037.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 25th, 2023 at 3:36 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
If that’s true, then ultimately there is no liberation from samsara. Follow the logic.

Astus wrote:
Liberation means change. What cannot change cannot have liberation. So the Buddha has stated that if there were something permanent, liberation would be impossible and the path would be meaningless ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.97/en/sujato ). Same applies to the views that body and soul are the same or different ( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/sujato ). What should be recognised is that it's neither the sense organs, nor the sense objects that are the problem, but the craving and clinging to them ( https://suttacentral.net/sn35.232/en/sujato ).
Therefore the view of an unconditioned awareness apart from the aggregates is rejected, as it is a hindrance to liberation, it is an unnecessary assumption, and keeps one trapped in rebirth.

PadmaVonSamba said:
‘Self’ and ‘awareness’ are not the same thing.

Astus wrote:
If one believes something to be the unconditioned essence of existence, that qualifies as one of the common philosophical views of self, just like one finds so in Sankhya and Vedanta where an ultimate, independent witness is taken as the final reality. Such a view has been rejected and refuted in Buddhism from the beginning.

PadmaVonSamba said:
The problem with asserting that the true nature of awareness is conditional or dependent on aggregates is like saying that because removing dirt from a glass window reveals its clarity, that therefore the original clarity of the glass only exists in the first place because the dirt has been removed.

Astus wrote:
Awareness is the aggregate of consciousness, as it is consciousness that is aware of its six types of objects (as https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=674037#p674037 ). The nature of awareness/consciousness is that it's empty, insubstantial, without essence. It is because awareness is conditioned that it is empty. An unconditioned, independent awareness very much qualifies as not empty, as a substance, an essence, a soul, a self. And since it's unconditioned, no change can affect it, no liberation is possible. That awareness, i.e. consciousness, just like the other aggregates, in other words: the entirety of body and mind is empty means that it's originally pure. The empty nature of mind is what cannot be grasped, and without grasping there is no defilement.

PadmaVonSamba said:
The Skandhas don’t describe the mind’s true nature. They describe the basis for obscuring the mind (self grasping) through attachment to form, feeling, and so on. They describe the “mud on the window” that creates the dichotomy of subject-object.

Astus wrote:
The skandhas are all there is, both body and mind. In fact, the skandhas are used to highlight that mind is a composite (the the six senses highlight the body being a composite). The nature of the skandhas is the nature of mind. That's why insight into the nature of the skandhas is a key to liberation. But not like it's done in Vedanta, where one has to peel away the sheaths (pañcakoṣa) to find inside the self. Rather in the Buddha's teaching one eventually does not find anything, no essence, no substance, no soul, no self whatsoever. There are merely conventional, conditioned phenomena without a core or ultimate source.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 25th, 2023 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
Awareness is empty of any independent causation or origination; this is because it is uncaused and unborn; it is outside of causation of any form.

Astus wrote:
An independent, unconditioned awareness, that is an impossibility, and is basically no different from the view of atman.

SvatahSiddha said:
I'm interested in any source in the buddhadharma you might quote from that holds awareness itself as dependent on conditions.

Astus wrote:
There is no unconditioned awareness in the buddhadharma, just as there is no ultimate self.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 24th, 2023 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
If Buddhas have no awareness, how can they establish pure abodes?

Astus wrote:
A living buddha has awareness, just as he also has a body, no different in that regard from any other human being. As for buddha lands, those are established through the vows made and merits accumulated over innumerable lifetimes as a bodhisattva.

PadmaVonSamba said:
I still say that you are confusing the arising of conceptual subject-object interaction with awareness.
What I’m saying is that awareness interacts with objects of awareness and this is what results in the experience we call consciousness (which involves the skandhas, etc).

Astus wrote:
As https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=673437#p673437, the six types of consciousness arises from the six types of sense organs and sense objects, that is: 'Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. Ear consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds.' to 'Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and thoughts.'. Seeing how consciousness arises dependently is what can lead to liberation ( https://suttacentral.net/sn35.234/en/sujato ).

It should also be clear that the six types of consciousness are what the consciousness aggregate is.

'And what is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind consciousness. This is called consciousness. Consciousness originates from name and form. When name and form cease, consciousness ceases. The practice that leads to the cessation of consciousness is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.56/en/sujato )

PadmaVonSamba said:
It’s because of ignorance that awareness experiences objects of awareness as intrinsically existing (and not merely temporary composites) and this ignorance results in grasping > samsara.

Astus wrote:
Taking awareness to be something intrinsically existing and not merely a temporary composite is similarly a form of grasping resulting in suffering.

PadmaVonSamba said:
But awareness itself is not a “thing”. It’s like space. It’s where “things” happen.

Astus wrote:
Awareness is likened to space because it has no essence, not because it is some sort of infinite container.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Your view is basically the same as the materialist view that consciousness emerges from matter.

Astus wrote:
What makes you believe so? I have repeatedly stated here that consciousness arises based on the sense organd and sense object, just as it is taught by the Buddha. That is not the same as identifying the mind with the body as materialists do.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 24th, 2023 at 8:18 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
So, you are saying total annihilation then?

Astus wrote:
There is annihilation (uccheda) and there is cessation (nirodha). Annihilation usually means the extreme view of the ending of a being/self at the time of death. Cessation usually stands for the cessation of suffering, as in the third noble truth.

“There is, brahmin, a sense in which you could rightly say that I’m a teacher of annihilationism. For I teach the annihilation of greed, hate, and delusion, and the many kinds of unskillful things. In this sense you could rightly say that I’m a teacher of annihilationism. But that’s not what you’re talking about.”
( https://suttacentral.net/an8.11/en/sujato )

As for the matter of what happens to the Buddha after death, whether he exists or does not, that is a question based on the incorrect view of self, as noted before https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=673470#p673470 and https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=673850#p673850.

PadmaVonSamba said:
No pure realms, none of that?

Astus wrote:
There are heavens, among them those that are called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Abodes as the highest places in the realm of form, where non-returners are born.

PadmaVonSamba said:
My understanding is that the skandhas are the basis of self-grasping, not of awareness itself.

Astus wrote:
Indeed, the aggregates are all that can be grasped as self, but grasping and the aggregates are not the same, 'the desire and greed for them is the grasping there.' ( https://suttacentral.net/mn109/en/sujato ), and the whole point is not to grasp, because 'When you grasp, mendicant, you’re bound by Māra. Not grasping, you’re free from the Wicked One.' ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.63/en/sujato ). So there is the distinction between the five aggregates and the five grasping aggregates ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.48/en/sujato ).

PadmaVonSamba said:
How can there be skandhas without their first being awareness?

Astus wrote:
Awareness is the aggregate of consciousness.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Without a stream of awareness as a foundation, it is also baseless to assume any cause for rebirth. As the materials say, you die, and that’s it. Poof.

Astus wrote:
Birth is not caused by a stream of awareness but by craving. The view that awareness is a constant has been most clearly and strongly rejected by the Buddha, e.g. https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato, https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato.

PadmaVonSamba said:
So then, no such thing as tathagatagharba.

Astus wrote:
Tathagatagarbha is the potential for attaining buddhahood. Like by having legs there is a potential for running a marathon. But 'potential' is not concrete thing, simply an imagined future event.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Zen is wrong about ‘unborn mind’.

Astus wrote:
The mind is unborn, just like all appearances are unborn. It is another way to say that mind is dependently arisen, therefore empty.

PadmaVonSamba said:
There is no Pure Land of Amitabha.

Astus wrote:
It is still a temporary place where one can work on attaining buddhahood.

PadmaVonSamba said:
What is aware of this conditionally dependent production?

Astus wrote:
Comprehending dependent production is a complex mental process, similarly to how comprehending a series of lines and dots as words and sentences is a complex mental process. Not taking into account that complexity and simply assuming a constant subject behind objects is a superficial approach that generates the false impression of there being a self.

PadmaVonSamba said:
What comes into contact with these conditions?

Astus wrote:
Conditions interact with conditions. Awareness of conditions is itself a conditional product and factor.

“What is the cause, Master Gotama, what is the reason why these various misconceptions arise in the world? That is: the cosmos is eternal, or not eternal, or finite, or infinite; the soul and the body are the same thing, or they are different things; after death, a Realized One still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists.”
“Vaccha, it is because of not knowing consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation that these various misconceptions arise in the world. This is the cause, this is the reason.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn33.5/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 24th, 2023 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
Awareness is empty of any independent causation or origination; this is seen because the aggregates have no self (they go away completely in the realization and thus have never been truly established)..

Astus wrote:
Awareness, like anything else, is empty of an independent self/essence/substance/nature (i.e. svabhāva), and it is causally and dependently produced by conditions.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 24th, 2023 at 3:24 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
SvatahSiddha said:
The realization of buddhahood (nibbana) is a cessation of the world; it reveals the unborn awareness shining underneath, free of any separation.

Astus wrote:
Unborn awareness is a Mahayana expression that means that awareness is empty. It is no different from the basic teaching that the aggregates are no-self. It does not mean a hidden soul to be discovered, as that would be just common self-view and mistaking the aggregate of consciousness to be something permanent.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 24th, 2023 at 3:00 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Again, the context: the buddha is talking about skandhas, which refers to beings In samsara.

Astus wrote:
Skandhas mean simply body and mind. Whether one assumes them to be a self/being, or a self as their owner, or a self inside them, or outside of them (i.e. the 20 types of self-view), that's what binds one and generates suffering.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Anyway, the monk said that after ‘nibbana’ there is awareness. If there’s no disagreement about that, then that’s that.

Astus wrote:
There is no unconditioned awareness, awareness is simply a function of the skandhas. Since there is no birth once one has attained complete liberation, it is baseless to assume any form of awareness to remain. See also the explanations https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=673850#p673850 by authoritative Theravada teachers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahasi_Sayadaw and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._A._Payutto.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 24th, 2023 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
If mind is a phenomenon…
…how are you not saying that nirvana is complete annihilation of awareness?

Astus wrote:
Nirvana means the ending of defilements, not the ending of the aggregates. Without defilements, there is no cause for birth, hence the Buddha's exclamation: ‘My freedom is unshakable; this is my last rebirth; now there are no more future lives.’ ( https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato, etc.)

PadmaVonSamba said:
…how is your view essentially any different from the materialist view that awareness is a product of matter?

Astus wrote:
The six types of consciousness arise based on the six sense bases and sense objects, as https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=673850#p673850. It is not how materialists imagine it.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Mind is aware of phenomena.
Phenomena are all objects of awareness.

Astus wrote:
Even if you want to categorise like that, mind arises dependent on phenomena, and ceases dependent on the cessation of its object. So the Buddha has stated: 'For in many ways I have told you that consciousness is dependently originated, since without a cause, consciousness does not come to be.' ( https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato ).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 24th, 2023 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
…in samsara.

Astus wrote:
Mind is a phenomenon. To say that one can find the nature of mind outside mind is like saying one can identify redness apart from colours.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 23rd, 2023 at 4:21 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
ThreeVows said:
I mean, I have no problem with that as long as you then acknowledge that literally everything is conceptual. Including the experience for instance of being punched in the nose and breaking your nose, bleeding all over the floor, etc. For instance.

Astus wrote:
The point is that there can be no separate 'nature of mind' identified apart from phenomena.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 23rd, 2023 at 4:16 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Awareness with imputed duality is samsara.
Awareness without duality is bodhi.

Astus wrote:
That does not render awareness unconditioned in either case, rather it shows its conditioned nature. It arises and ceases with its conditions, like anything else.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 23rd, 2023 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
ThreeVows said:
In a dream, hypothetically one might be able to experience a billion years within the span of a single second, 'from the outside'. The experience of time - not just as a concept, but as a phenomenon - arises 'within' the dream.

Astus wrote:
What is the phenomenal quality, its defining attribute, that you call the experience of time? Is it something seen or heard? Or is it rather a mental fabrication that conceives whether something has lasted for long or short, and what can be further complicated by specific measurements, like hours and years? If it's the latter, then it is very much conceptual.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 23rd, 2023 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
A Buddha’s awareness is beyond the duality of permanent/impermanent.
Referring to the aggregates is about what creates the experience of a “me” happening.
They arise within awareness. They aren’t the cause of awareness.
Awareness isn’t a “thing”. It’s what “things” happen in. It’s like 3D space.

Simply put, it’s impossible to assert the cessation of awareness, even for a Buddha, because there would still be awareness of that cessation.

Astus wrote:
If the Buddha had been unaware of the ideas of permanent and impermanent, he could not have been able to conceive and teach about them.
The aggregates mean the physical and mental experiences. To say that they create the misconception of a self is to say that even a buddha - who clearly has a body and a mind - is mistaken and believes in a self.
Awareness is the act of being aware of something, and as such it arises dependent on its object. It is what the aggregate of consciousness is.
Space is simply a conceptual fabrication, and so is an eternal awareness, i.e. a self. Since an unconditioned awareness is a mere expression, there is nothing to cease but the mistake of believing it to be real.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 23rd, 2023 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
ThreeVows said:
Just one thought, that time arises within the nature of mind, not the other way around. As such, the discussion about 'eternal' is somewhat tricky.

Astus wrote:
Rather, time arises as a concept, an idea, and as such it is a mental phenomenon, so it is "within" the mind, so to speak, although it is a somewhat misleading metaphor, as there is no mind apart from mental factors, nor is it a box to contain things. Then, when it comes to the nature of mind, that means what mind is like, what its nature is, but it's quite a strange idea that there can be something inside what the mind is like. That would be like saying that the toy is inside the cubicity of a box.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 23rd, 2023 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
When ignorance has been overcome, the luminous awareness which has always been there remains.

Astus wrote:
An eternal awareness, is it same or different from the aggregates? If it's the same, it is necessarily conditioned and impermanent. If it's different, then it lacks the attributes of the aggregates, such as feeling and perception, so it cannot actually be called an awareness as it's not aware of anything.

Then the Buddha, picking up a little bit of dirt under his fingernail, addressed that mendicant: ...
“There’s not even this much of any consciousness that’s permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, and will last forever and ever. If there were, this living of the spiritual life for the complete ending of suffering would not be found. But since there isn’t, this living of the spiritual life for the complete ending of suffering is found.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.97/en/sujato )

“Mendicants, it would make sense to be possessive about something that’s permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, and will last forever and ever. But do you see any such possession?”
“No, sir.”
“Good, mendicants! I also can’t see any such possession.”
( https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato )

'There is not anywhere anything 
That ever exists without depending. 
Thus never is there anywhere 
Anything that is permanent. 
There is no functional thing without a cause,
Nor anything permanent which has a cause. 
Thus the one who knows suchness said what has
Come about causelessly does not exist.'
(Catuhsataka 9.202-203, tr Ruth Sonam)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 22nd, 2023 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Just luminous awareness.
awareness of whatever might fly by.
It’s like we a mirror is just always reflecting.

Astus wrote:
If you meant after nibbana while still alive, then the five aggregates are still operational, and indeed it consciousness can then be called luminous in the sense of being free from defilements. If you meant after death, then it is problematic.

PadmaVonSamba said:
that refers to consciousness arising in samsara

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is still conditioned regardless of attaining nibbana.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 22nd, 2023 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I just asked my Thai monk friend today.
He said that after nibbana,
there is still awareness,
but no memory.

Astus wrote:
Awareness of what? It should be kept in mind that all forms of consciousness is compounded, it can exist only with name and form ( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.67/en/sujato ), with the other aggregates ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.53/en/sujato ), as a result of a sense organ and a sense object ( Dutiyadvayasutta ).

Here are two answers from renowned Theravada teachers:

"In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.
With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds."
(Absence of Mind and Matter in Nibbāna, in http://aimwell.org/natureofnibbana.html by Mahāsi Sayādaw)

"An inevitable question that arises in the discussion of Nibbāna is: ’What happens to an arahant after death?’ or: ’Does a person who has realized Nibbāna exist after death or not?’ In truth, this question is centred around self-view: the devotion to self is acting as a catalyst in posing the question. This attachment to self or to the label of self (attavādupādāna) – a doctrine of self – is firmly embedded in the hearts of unenlightened people, supported by the thirst for being (bhava-taṇhā) and based on ignorance (avijjā). The Buddha did not encourage debating this question if one has not eliminated ignorance and craving. He encouraged knowledge through application rather than conjecture.
No matter how one responds to these inquiries, the latent root attachment to self will inevitably lead to a biased understanding. The questioner will incline towards a wrong view of Nibbāna as either an enduring self or an eradication of self. It is easy for annihilationists to view Nibbāna as extinction, because Buddhism emphasizes disentangling from the widespread belief in eternalism. As for eternalists, when their idea of self is invalidated, they search for a substitute to compensate for the sense of void or to restore the idea of a stable self. When they encounter a teaching that advocates uprooting the fixed belief in self, it can seem to them that the self vanishes. They may then seize Nibbāna as a haven for the self or equate Nibbāna as eternal life or the Promised Land.
Many esteemed and wise individuals who are free from almost all forms of attachment get caught up in these views. The escape from this net leads to complete liberation."
( https://buddhadhamma.github.io/nibbana-supreme-peace.html#what-happens-after-an-arahants-death in https://buddhadhamma.github.io/ by Bhikkhu P. A. Payutto)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 16th, 2023 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
cdpatton said:
So, yeah, early Buddhists ended up sounding nihilistic because they were all about ceasing rebirth. But when they were being specific about what they meant by Nirvāṇa, they refused to take the view that it was a kind of existence or non-existence. It is strange and sounds disingenuous, but I think it was actually a kind of mysticism. Other religions had heavens and such that they described in concrete ways, but Buddhists refused to describe where liberated people "go." And this refusal to define Nirvāṇa eventually led to Madhyamaka philosophy (IMO), which refuted the reality of dualistic categories altogether.

Astus wrote:
The matter of an arahant's (the Tathagata's) existence after death is discussed quite extensively. As I take it, it is not mystical.

'Any form ... feeling … perception … choices … consciousness by which a Realized One might be described has been cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, obliterated, and unable to arise in the future. A Realized One is freed from reckoning in terms of consciousness. They’re deep, immeasurable, and hard to fathom, like the ocean. To say that after death, a Realized One still exists, or no longer exists, or both still exists and no longer exists, or neither still exists nor no longer exists: none of these apply.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn44.1/en/sujato; same explanation in SN 22.85-86)

'Those who crudely think:
“The Tathagata does exist,”
Will think, regarding his nirvana,
“He does not exist.”'
(MMK 22.13, tr Padmakara)

'Mendicant, it’s due to the cessation of views that a learned noble disciple has no doubts regarding the undeclared points. ‘A Realized One still exists after death’: this is a misconception. ‘A Realized One no longer exists after death’: this is a misconception. ‘A Realized One both still exists and no longer exists after death’: this is a misconception. ‘A Realized One neither still exists nor no longer exists after death’: this is a misconception. An unlearned ordinary person doesn’t understand views, their origin, their cessation, or the practice that leads to their cessation. And so their views grow. They’re not freed from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. They’re not freed from suffering, I say.'
( https://suttacentral.net/an7.54/en/sujato, same point made in MN 72)

It is a matter of understanding the four noble truths, dependent origination, and eliminating identity view (see MN 2). In other words, as long as one grasp at the six senses, there is the concept of a being, and one thinks in terms of continuity or discontinuity, in terms of existence or non-existence (SN 44.7, AN 4.173-174).

'“I am not, I will not be.
I have not, I will not have,”
That frightens all the childish 
And extinguishes fear in the wise.
...
Having seen thus the aggregates as untrue,
The conception of I is abandoned,
And due to abandoning the conception of I 
The aggregates arise no more.'
(Ratnavali v 26, 30; tr Hopkins)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 15th, 2023 at 5:56 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
That’s merely a shift in the object of awareness.
That isn’t the same at all as consciousness (awareness) stopping and starting again.

Astus wrote:
Consciousness/awareness is defined by and dependent on its object. If the object changes, it is necessarily a different instance of consciousness.

PadmaVonSamba said:
then how do you know you can’t see?

Astus wrote:
That is mental consciousness, not visual consciousness.

PadmaVonSamba said:
This requires the establishing of indivisible starting and ending points for each separate instance

Astus wrote:
It does not, unless one is aiming for establishing an ultimately existing substance. But there is no trouble in defining how within a certain period of time one has been thinking of one thing, and then later of another, or that one saw someone walking by at 11:54.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 15th, 2023 at 3:10 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
Tolya M said:
How does it arise in this case from complete nothing? Nothing comes from nothing. It is impossible.

Astus wrote:
The six types of consciousness arises dependent on the six types of sense areas. Just as the sense areas, so is consciousness impermanent. One smells the smell of tea, thus there is olfactory consciousness, and that instance of consciousness is gone just as one either engages in some thoughts about tea or focuses on another sense impression.

'consciousness is dependently originated, since without a cause, consciousness does not come to be ... Consciousness is reckoned according to the specific conditions dependent upon which it arises. ... It’s like fire, which is reckoned according to the specific conditions dependent upon which it burns.'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato )

"‘The six classes of consciousness should be understood.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. Ear consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds. Nose consciousness arises dependent on the nose and smells. Tongue consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and tastes. Body consciousness arises dependent on the body and touches. Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and thoughts. ‘The six classes of consciousness should be understood.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it."
https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato

'And what, mendicants, is the origin of suffering? Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. Feeling is a condition for craving. This is the origin of suffering. ...
And what is the ending of suffering? Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. Feeling is a condition for craving. When that craving fades away and ceases with nothing left over, grasping ceases. When grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. When continued existence ceases, rebirth ceases. When rebirth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease. That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases. This is the ending of suffering.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.43/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 15th, 2023 at 2:55 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
It doesn’t start and stop like separate frames in movie film.
Each instant of awareness creates the conditions for a subsequent instance to arise. But it’s  like a river flowing, each wave propelling the next.
You can’t isolate any point in a river and say “this is where it starts and this is where it stops”.

Astus wrote:
Not every instance of consciousness is caused by a previous instance. One may dwell on a train of thought for a little while, in which case it is acceptable to say that from one thought came another. But then if either a different thought, or a different sense impression catches one's attention, then it is not the continuation of the previous train of thought. When one series of thoughts have ceased, it does not continue to exist in the next moment, nor does it cause it. Even more obvious if one sees various sights or hears various sounds, then consciousness of one sight or one sound is not the cause of the next instance of consciousness.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 14th, 2023 at 2:43 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Any assumption of complete cessation of  consciousness can be nothing other than pure speculation

Astus wrote:
Consciousness ceases completely every moment. How is that a speculation?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 14th, 2023 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
DNS said:
See the OP, apparently it is for some or perhaps many Buddhists.

Astus wrote:
That is based on an incorrect assumption, that nibbana means the cessation of consciousness. If that were so, then non-percipient gods (asaññasattā) and the attainment of cessation (nirodhasamāpatti) would both equal extinction.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 14th, 2023 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
DNS said:
It is the latter that they refer to as complete cessation.

Astus wrote:
So it is, as there is no more birth. How is the end of the cycle of birth and death a problematic view in Buddhism?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 14th, 2023 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
DNS said:
Many Theravada teachers advocate that it is complete cessation, even of consciousness, but argue that it is not annihilation since there was no being, no soul to begin with.

Astus wrote:
Nibbana is attained while alive. Neither the body, nor the mind suddenly disappears with nibbana, otherwise there would have been no living arahants and buddhas. It is the consequence of the end of craving that there is no more birth.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 13th, 2023 at 4:06 PM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
Tolya M said:
I have a version of why they twisted the question so much.

Astus wrote:
Who are they? Could you specify whose view is that nibbana is cessation of consciousness, preferably with direct quotes?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 13th, 2023 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: The Modern Western Theravada bias
Content:
Tolya M said:
What do they say nibbana is? It is total extinction of consiousness!

Astus wrote:
Nibbana is the extiction of greed, hate, and delusion. This is so in both Theravada and Mahayana. Consciousness is momentary in both, so it ceases every moment anyway.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 5th, 2023 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: How Do You Know?
Content:
Astus wrote:
“There is a method—apart from faith, preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration—that a mendicant can rely on to declare their enlightenment. That is: ‘I understand: “Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.”’
( https://suttacentral.net/sn35.153/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 5th, 2023 at 2:31 PM
Title: Re: Have I attained Sotapatti?
Content:
Astus wrote:
What to do with verification, what desire or anxiety does that serve?

“Subhūti, what do you think? Does a practitioner who has attained the level of srota-āpanna think: ‘I have attained the realization of the srota-āpanna?’”
Subhūti said, “No, World-honored One. And why not? Because the name srota-āpanna means ‘stream-enterer,’ and there is in fact no stream to be entered. One does not enter form, sound, odor, taste, touch, or concepts. Therefore one is called a srota-āpanna.”
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html#div-10 )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 3rd, 2023 at 7:06 PM
Title: Re: Doctrinal Perspective on Prayer
Content:
muni said:
Devotion frees us from our experience of ego, what keeps us in samsara.

Astus wrote:
If one is devoted, one follows the instructions. If devotion only consisted of a feeling of love but not followed by actual practice, then how could it make any difference? It would be like saying that one loves one's child but not caring for that child. At the same time, as long as one cultivates correctly, then the results occur. So devotion can be used as motivation, but it's not real devotion/motivation without actively being devoted/motivated. Similarly, one can pray as much as one likes, but it does not spare one from actually doing the work oneself.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 2nd, 2023 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Doctrinal Perspective on Prayer
Content:
ThreeVows said:
Moggallana, however, works sort of peripherally, using various siddhis to mature the seeker.

Astus wrote:
Buddhas and bodhisattvas are innumerable with boundless powers, so what more peripheral influence can there be? Still, we all are where we are.

Devotion as a method is not the same as the idea that prayers are effective.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 2nd, 2023 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Doctrinal Perspective on Prayer
Content:
ThreeVows said:
Do you think that requesting a realized guru for teachings helps?

Astus wrote:
Only if the guru hears you, answers the request, you can then comprehend the answer, and make good use of it.

ThreeVows said:
How is it any different to pray to, say, Avalokiteshvara that Avalokiteshvara helps you to develop along the path? Do you think that Avalokiteshvara has the capacity to subtly have an impact in your life?

Astus wrote:
Chapter 24 of the Lotus Sutra lists a couple of miracles he can make if one calls on him. Some of those are easy to test. Let me know if they actually worked.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 2nd, 2023 at 9:26 PM
Title: Re: Doctrinal Perspective on Prayer
Content:
ThreeVows said:
Generally speaking, what you shared here relates to simply wishing for something without being willing to basically change or do anything at all, just a sort of passive prayer. That is not necessarily all that 'prayer' is, though it might be semantic.

Astus wrote:
If prayer on its own does not help, but one still has to make it happen, then what's the efficacy of praying? One can have dinner as long as one prepares it, no point in praying for it. That's what the simile of the hen and the eggs explain.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 2nd, 2023 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: schools besides Jonang which hold the Emptiness-of-other view
Content:
npr said:
There is no Zen sect that hold this position?

Astus wrote:
Zen does not proclaim a particular doctrinal position. It's in its 'credo' not to: special transmission outside the teachings, not relying on words and letters (jiaowai biechuan, buli wenzi 教外別傳、不立文字).


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 1st, 2023 at 7:16 PM
Title: Re: Doctrinal Perspective on Prayer
Content:
Astus wrote:
Prayers and wishes are of no help in liberation:

"Suppose there was a chicken with eight or ten or twelve eggs. But she had not properly sat on them to keep them warm and incubated. That chicken might wish: ‘If only my chicks could break out of the eggshell with their claws and beak and hatch safely!’ But they can’t break out and hatch safely. Why is that? Because that chicken with eight or ten or twelve eggs has not properly sat on them to keep them warm and incubated.
In the same way, when a mendicant is not committed to development, they might wish: ‘If only my mind was freed from the defilements by not grasping!’ Even so, their mind is not freed from defilements by not grasping. Why is that? You should say: ‘It’s because they’re undeveloped.’ Undeveloped in what? Undeveloped in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven awakening factors, and the noble eightfold path."
( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.101/en/sujato )

Just as they are useless for worldly gains:

"Long life, beauty, happiness, fame, and heaven. These are the five things that are likable, desirable, and agreeable, but hard to get in the world. And I say that these five things are not got by praying or wishing for them. If they were, who would lack them?"
( https://suttacentral.net/an5.43/en/sujato )

Or for helping the deceased:

“Chief, suppose a person were to throw a broad rock into a deep lake. And a large crowd was to come together to offer up prayers and praise, circumambulating it with joined palms, and saying: ‘Rise, good rock! Float, good rock! Float to shore, good rock!’ What do you think, chief? Would that broad rock rise up or float because of their prayers?”
“No, sir.”
“In the same way, take a person who kills living creatures, steals, and commits sexual misconduct. They use speech that’s false, divisive, harsh, or nonsensical. And they’re covetous, malicious, and have wrong view. Even though a large crowd comes together to offer up prayers and praise … when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn42.6/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 7:18 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
Inka is completely diffrent issue.

Astus wrote:
It is also based on the idea that the buddha-mind is transmitted from one generation to another, is it not?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 2:07 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
The definition does not mean anything. ... It is not inka, which is meant to be a confirmation of thorough realization. ...
The whole discussion would have never taken place if dharma transmission had been as you suggested.

Astus wrote:
On paper, by definition, dharma transmission means the transmission of buddha-mind, the awakening of Shakyamuni and all the ancestors. That in practice it is not so, shows that it is a misconception to look at lineage as a sufficient source of verification of someone as a Zen teacher. The same applies even if it is called inka, because, on paper, there is no difference. However, without lineage there is no Zen either.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
But his does not exist for long time already. Today the meaning is that one becomes a priest and is allowed to preform certain rituals. Nothing else.

Astus wrote:
How could it not exist today when the definition is still very much in use? Here's another one:

Buddha-mind (busshin 佛心) is the awakening (bodai 菩提, S. bodhi) that turns ordinary beings into buddhas. The Zen lineage is said to transmit Shakamuni's buddha-mind from master to disciple "without relying on scriptures" (furyū monji 不立文字). That wordless "mind to mind transmission" (ishin denshin 以心傳心) is likened to the kind of non-verbal communication that takes place when a carved seal (in 印), used in East Asia as a legally binding signature, is inked and pressed on a piece of paper. The awakened mind of the master presses directly, as it were, on the mind of the disciple, thereby replicating itself. A disciple whose understanding of the dharma is formally approved and documented by a master is also said to have received a "seal of approval" (inka 印可).
(seal of the buddha-mind (busshin in 佛心印) in https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/glossary/individual.html?key=seal_of_the_buddha_mind )

This is said to be in Sotoshu Regulations, Article 21:

'“Dharma transmission” is defined as experiencing face-to-face transmission between master and disciple, receiving the Three Things, and realizing preservation of the Dharma Lamp.'
( https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms20.pdf in https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/key_terms/index.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
And if this is the case, then what to we do with so-called Buddhas who get permanently kicked out of the SZBA? Or other teachers, who have received inka, and are consistently involved in scandals decade after decade?

Astus wrote:
It is one of those systemic contradictions mostly left untouched.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: Attaining rigpa and which bhumi
Content:
Malcolm said:
In trekcho, there is no corresponding map to the paths and stages of lower yānas.

Astus wrote:
Is it problematic to connect trekcho to Mahamudra where such correspondence is well known? Although there the example wisdom is the third empowerment, while the fourth is the actual (e.g. Treasury of Knowledge, vol 6, p 231). Are there different views on that too?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
This is first of all a question of affinity. Actually disciple should meet the requirements of particulat teacher/lineage/school. Soto school does not make requierments concerning realization, as far as I know.

Astus wrote:
The idea of dharma transmission in Zen, Soto included, is the recognition of the disciple's awakening being the same as that of Shakyamuni Buddha, as exemplified by the so called Flower Sermon.

'In the Zen tradition, the transmission of the formless, ineffable buddha mind (busshin 佛心) down through the lineage of ancestral teachers (soshi 祖師) is referred to metaphorically as "transmission of the flame" (dentō 傳燈).'
(definition of 'dharma lamp (hōtō 法燈)' in the https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/glossary/index.html#!section-d )

Matylda said:
For example SZBA as I see requiers for the membership just how many years one has to pratice , how many sesshins etc.

Astus wrote:
The first requirement is: 'Ordination and dharma transmission in a recognized Soto Zen lineage'.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Attaining rigpa and which bhumi
Content:
Astus wrote:
According to Shechen Gyaltsap it matches the path of joining.

'Now, when the nature of awareness is unmistakenly recognized through the paths of Mahāmudrā and the Great Perfection, many holy beings of the Mahāmudrā tradition and others believe that since awareness is experienced directly, this constitutes authentic ultimate luminosity. On the other hand, the omniscient Longchenpa and others say that in the true actualization of ultimate luminosity, twelve sets of one hundred excellent qualities, among other things, must be present. Consequently, even though the awareness just referred to is experienced directly, Longchenpa and others identify it as the example luminosity.
...
'For practitioners on the path of accumulation, there is understanding; for those on the path of joining, there is experience; and for those on the path of seeing, there is realization. This has been affirmed by the great and noble beings who have well perceived the truth of the dharmatā, and it should be understood as a profound key point. Beginners, who are on the path of accumulation, rely on their teachers and listen to their instructions. Through an understanding that derives from study and reflection, they rid themselves of misconceptions regarding the fundamental nature of things—namely, the union [of appearance and emptiness]. When, on this basis, they recognize that the mind is unborn and have a decisive experience of this, the example luminosity arises in their mind stream. And since, thanks to the example luminosity, they will be directly joined to the ultimate luminosity, this stage is called the “path of joining.” The occurrence or otherwise of the example luminosity is the criterion that determines whether one is on the path of joining or not. The moment when the example luminosity develops and transforms into ultimate luminosity is the point when the truth of ultimate reality, the dharmatā, is realized, and this is the path of seeing. From that moment onward, to grow used to what has been realized constitutes the path of meditation. And when this has been completed, the path of no more learning is attained.'
(Practicing the Great Perfection: Instructions on the Crucial Points by Shechen Gyaltsap Gyurme Pema Namgyal, p 22-23)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 30th, 2023 at 6:29 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
There is no guarantee that will find proper person.

Astus wrote:
The question is if one who is accepted as a realised teacher can confirm a disciple who is not realised? If yes, then lineage is meaningless. If no, then all within a lineage must be accepted in the same way as the original teacher.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 30th, 2023 at 2:24 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
clyde said:
If you are correct about Soto Zen, then lineage is no guarantee of realization and if Malcolm is correct that “ordinary people” (like me) cannot infer or sense if someone is realized - then we are all lost.

Astus wrote:
Lineage is no guarantee, after all, every single Buddhist is theoretically a descendent of the Buddha. From the beginning the idea of a special lineage has been used in Zen to separate one group from another and claim authenticity for one's own.

What one can do is to rely on the scriptures and see if a teacher is in agreement with them. That is taking the Dharma and the Vinaya as the guide. And there is the other aspect of using the four establishments of mindfulness for experiential verification. Those two sides have been the advice of the Buddha for the future. They can be applied to Soto as well, for instance by studying the works of Dogen and practising zazen.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 29th, 2023 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
But japanese shumucho the administrative body over all soto school on all continents, is supervising the activity of its priests, whether Japanese or non-Japnese. They even give some financial support to those outside of Japan. So there is somehow institutional continuity in the sense of administration and regulations.

Astus wrote:
Only a mere fraction of overseas communities are affiliates of the Japanese church. Most of them operate completely independently, hence the many differences.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 28th, 2023 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Astus wrote:
It seems the one essential question is: is shikantaza a valid teaching?

'Remember, among Buddhists we do not argue about superiority and inferiority of philosophies, or choose between shallowness and profundity in the Dharma; we need only know whether the practice is genuine or artificial.'
(SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 1, p 9)

Is it true that shikantaza is the realisation of suchness, is dropping off body and mind, is being buddha?

Rujing said, “Sanzen is dropping off body and mind. We don’t use incense burning, making prostrations, nembutsu, the practice of repentance, or reading sutras. We only engage in just sitting.”
Dōgen asked, “What is dropping off body and mind?”
Rujing said, “Dropping off body and mind is zazen. When we just practice zazen, we part from the five desires and remove the five coverings.”
(quoted from Hōkyōki in Realizing Genjokoan, p 81-82)

'Zen Master Dogen says that the zazen of the Buddha-ancestors is Buddha’s practice. It is a very simple and plain practice of just continuing to sit, letting go of our views. Such zazen embodies the “situation of Buddha’s house” in which the essence (foundation/enlightenment), expounding (explaining the Dharma) and practice are one and the same. Therefore, there is no need to seek the Buddha outside zazen. Zazen is not a practice that produces a Buddha-ancestor but an action causing the Buddha-ancestors to live as Buddha-ancestors.'
( https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms01.pdf )

'The thing itself is emptiness, but because you add something to it, you spoil the actual reality. So if we don’t spoil things, that is to empty things. When you sit in shikantaza, don’t be disturbed by sounds, don’t operate your thinking mind. This means not to rely on any sense organ or the thinking mind and just receive the letter from the world of emptiness. That is shikantaza.'
( https://www.lionsroar.com/letters-from-emptiness/, from Not Always So, p 37-38)

'When we sit in zazen, we are immediately buddha. We go directly into buddhahood.'
(Master Dōgen's Zazen Meditation Handbook, p 168)

If shikantaza is not what they claim it to be, then of course it is not a genuine practice, and by Dogen's own standard one should avoid it. But if it is as they say, where is the fault?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 28th, 2023 at 3:17 PM
Title: Re: It's no small thing
Content:
KeithA said:
There is story that I don't remember the details of, that has a master lamenting the fact the even though he is very famous, even he has to take piss for himself. No one can do it for him.

Astus wrote:
Maybe case 315 in the Record of Zhaozhou ( https://www.anhsiangchan1983.tw/%E5%B0%8E%E5%B8%AB%E8%AC%9B%E8%A9%9E/%E8%B6%99%E5%B7%9E%E7%A6%AA%E5%B8%AB%E8%AA%9E%E9%8C%84.htm; https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/X68n1315_p0085a05 ):

A monk asked, “I ask you to say something about that which is immediately at hand.”
The master said, “Pissing is an easy matter, I can do it by myself.”
(The Recorded Sayings of Zen Master Joshu, p 103, tr James Green)

Someone asked, "Being on the verge, that point of absolute immediacy - what is that like?"
Joshu said, "Pissing is a small thing to do, but I have to do it myself."
(Radical Zen: The Sayings of Joshu, case 280, tr Yoel Hoffmann)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 27th, 2023 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
Um, Astus, he straight up calls it a forgery, along with the Sūtra of Perfect Enlightenment, and another text. I checked the BDK translation against the Shambhala edition.

Astus wrote:
Nevertheless he quotes from the Platform Sutra and presents those as authentic teachings of Huineng.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 27th, 2023 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Queequeg said:
He seems to be objecting to something more fundamental - Reading those passages in context he's criticizing "realization" that still flows from a subject-object dynamic.

Astus wrote:
I guess there's no issue with calling it 'subject-object dynamic', as it's still the same old self-view situation. Still, it's not that abstract or sophisticated.

'it is the view of the non-Buddhist Senika. According to that non-Buddhist view, there is one spiritual intelligence existing within our body. When this intelligence meets conditions, it can discriminate between pleasant and unpleasant and discriminate between right and wrong, and it can know pain and irritation and know suffering and pleasure—all [these] are abilities of the spiritual intelligence. When this body dies, however, the spirit casts off the skin and is reborn on the other side; so even though it seems to die here it lives on there. Therefore we call it immortal and eternal. The view of that non-Buddhist is like this. But if we learn this view as the Buddha’s Dharma, we are even more foolish than the person who grasps a tile or a pebble thinking it to be a golden treasure; the delusion would be too shameful for comparison.'
(SBGZ, vol 1, p 14)

'Many students, however, misunderstand that “mind here and now is buddha” did not exist in India but was first heard in China. As a result, they do not recognize their mistake as a mistake. Because they do not recognize the mistake as a mistake, many fall down into non-Buddhism. When stupid people hear talk of “mind here and now is buddha,” they interpret that ordinary beings’ intellect and sense perception, which have never established the bodhi-mind, are just buddha.' ... 'they are no different from the non-Buddhist Senika. He said, ‘In our body there is a single spiritual essence. This essence can recognize pain and irritation. When the body decays the spirit departs; just as when a house is burning the master of the house departs. The house is inconstant; the master of the house is constant.’ When I examine people like this, they do not know the false from the true. How can they decide what is right?'
(SBGZ, vol 1, p 65, 67)

Compare it to this passage quoted by Chinul:

'In the womb it is called a fetus. On being born it is called a person. In the eyes it is called seeing and in the ears it is called hearing. In the nose it smells, in the tongue it talks, in the hands it grasps, and in the feet it runs. When it is expanded, it contains worlds as numerous as grains of sand. When it is compressed, it exists within one minute particle of dust. Those who have recognized it know that it is the buddha-nature; those who have not call it the spirit.'
(Moguja’s Secrets on Cultivating the Mind, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 209-210)

Queequeg said:
I don't know absolutely about "special transmissions," whether they are necessary or not, but I surmise, transmission from living teachers helps, assuming the transmission is the real deal - there are some things that just aren't transmitted in books.

Astus wrote:
'Special transmission outside the teachings' (教外別傳) is a slogan used to distinguish the Zen school from everyone else.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 27th, 2023 at 6:14 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
It is interesting to learn that Dogen rejected the Platform Sutra.

Astus wrote:
Maybe in some sense, or in certain contexts, but he does quote from it (or parts that he might have found in other collections) a couple of times.

Malcolm said:
So, really, the root of the dispute is that not the Dogen rejected awakening, (obviously), he rejected a subitist term from a text he considered forged, one of the seminal texts of the entire Chan/Zen tradition. And in reading the rest of Faure's article, Dogen was critical of the Chinese founder of Rinzai as well.

Astus wrote:
The main objection Dogen (SBGZ, vol 1, p 14 & p 65; vol 2, p 5) had was against what he called the Senika/Śreṇika (先尼) heresy (based on the Nirvana Sutra account (chapter 45, scroll 39, https://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T0374_.12.0594a14:0594a15.cit )) of taking buddha-nature as a soul and kensho as its realisation.

In the Record of Linji we can find expressions that may lead one to such a soul view. E.g. 'In the eye it is called seeing, in the ear, hearing, in the nose, sense of smell. In the mouth it talks and argues, in the hands it holds and grasps, in the feet it moves and runs.' (tr JC Cleary, in Three Chan Classics, BDK ed, p 17)

If it is accepted that Dogen's take on zazen means 'dropping body and mind', there is indeed no point in proposing separately a method and a goal. The possible objection to it can be that most people are simply incapable of putting it into practice and a gradual path is required. If so, Mahayana has plenty of methods and stages to offer, no need for any special transmission.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 25th, 2023 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
it is absolutely false argument, since the term kensho was not used in the XIII century.. if Dogen did not like it, then nobody like the term kensho.. you cannot find it in texts of rinzai masters like Rankei Doryu, or Shoichi and others. It is sheer imputation that Dogen did not like the term kensho since he did not use it. It is wrong logic.

Astus wrote:
He did use it.

"Seeing the mind and seeing the nature (見性) is the animated activity of non-Buddhists."
(Sansuigyo, SBGZ, vol 1, p 219, BDK Edition; https://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T2582_.82.0063b27:0063b28.cit )

"Some fellow has said, “Old Man Śākyamuni, besides expounding the teaching and the sutras throughout his life, also authentically transmitted to Mahākāśyapa the Dharma of the one mind which is the supreme vehicle, and this transmission has passed from rightful successor to rightful successor. So the teaching is opportunistic idle discussion, but the mind is the essential true reality. This authentically transmitted one mind is called ‘the separate transmission outside the teachings.’ It is not to be likened to discussion of the three vehicles and the twelve divisions of the teaching. Because the one mind is the supreme vehicle, we speak of ‘direct pointing into the human heart’ and ‘seeing the nature (見性) and becoming buddha.’” This expression is never about the everyday conduct of the Buddha-Dharma: it lacks the vigorous road of getting the body free, and it has no dignified behavior throughout the body. Fellows like this, even hundreds or thousands of years ago, were proclaiming themselves to be leading authorities; but we should know that, if they had such talk as this, they neither clarified nor penetrated the Buddha’sDharma and the Buddha’s truth."
(Bukkyo, SBGZ, vol 2, p 70, BDK Edition; http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T2582_.82.0107a13:0107a26.cit )

"The essence of the Buddha-Dharma is never seeing the nature (見性). Where has any of the Seven Buddhas or the twenty-eight patriarchs of India said that the Buddha-Dharma is only “seeing the nature” (見性)? The Sixth Patriarch’s Platform Sutra contains the words “seeing the nature,” (見性) but that text is a fake text; it is not the writing of one to whom the Dharma treasury was transmitted, and it is not the words of Sōkei. It is a text upon which descendants of the Buddhist Patriarch absolutely never rely."
(Shizen-biku, SBGZ, vol 4, p 269, BDK Edition; https://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T2582_.82.0298b23:0298b29.cit )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 25th, 2023 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
Anyone can deluded themselves into such as idea.

Astus wrote:
If one can delude oneself into trusting the Three Jewels and living ethically, that sounds like a beneficial delusion.

Malcolm said:
If one is a follower of śravakayāna. But that is only applicable to those on the path of renunciation.

Astus wrote:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=153592#p153592 then, although points 5 and 6 are still about total renunciation.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 25th, 2023 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
clyde said:
If a realized Zen teacher isn’t able to know who is and is not realized, then who is? And how would a Zen student get confirmation?

Astus wrote:
To assess the level of one's initial attainment the Buddha has provided the 'mirror of the teaching' (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/sn55.8/en/sujato ). The Buddha has also talked about how to test if somebody claims to be liberated ( https://suttacentral.net/mn112/en/sujato ), and also about the need to be close to another in order to be able to measure his/her qualities ( https://suttacentral.net/an4.192/en/sujato ). Another option is telepathy (cetopariyañāṇa/paracittajñāna), although it's not among the recommended methods.

Ven. Sheng-yen taught:

'The most important thing in recognizing masters is to be able to judge whether they have a correct view of Buddhadharma. If their views of the Dharma are correct, then even if their behavior reveals some weaknesses, they should not be considered false masters. On the other hand, if teachers do not have a correct view of the Dharma, they cannot be considered authentic or virtuous masters.
Of course, this presupposes that the person making the judgment has some understanding of correct Dharma. Without an understanding of the Dharma, there is no way a practitioner can tell if a teacher is genuine or false.'
( http://old.ddc.shengyen.org/cgi-bin/ccdd/show.py?s=09-06p0027 )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 25th, 2023 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
reiun said:
Koan collections originated in 8th-12th century China. They were used to cultivate insight and enlightenment.

Astus wrote:
There have been collections of 'old cases' or 'ancient precedents' (guze/kosoku 古則), i.e. stories of ancestral teachers, that were later commented on, thus, with the commentary, came about the 'public cases' (gongan/kouan 公案), and still later emerged the practice of 'observing the phrase' (kanhua/kanna 看話) that has eventually been established as the standard method. So, it's only in the 12th century when such collections came to be actively 'used to cultivate insight and enlightenment' and the old cases themselves were also labelled koans. It's not that the stories themselves were collected and commented on from the beginning with the intent to be a special form of practice.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 24th, 2023 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
Sharf has shown that the New Buddhism was distinct from traditional or classical Zen on multiple levels. He disputes the notion of a “pure experience” that can be uncoupled from its institutional and doctrinal constraints, noting that classical Zen is one of the most scholastic and ritualistic forms of Buddhist monasticism and that enlightenment in Zen is “constituted in elaborately choreographed and eminently public ritual performance.”42 He has also questioned the legitimacy of New Buddhist proponents, pointing out that they were largely laypeople who were not trained in traditional Zen monastic settings. Nonetheless, this modernist vision of Zen was largely embraced by Western scholars and lay practitioners as an historically accurate picture of traditional Zen until recent studies such as Sharf’s illuminated its specifically modernist and nationalist contextual origins.43
Gleig, Ann. American Dharma . Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

Astus wrote:
That strongly suggests the worries regarding and the emphasis on authentic awakening within Zen is a modern phenomenon, while those focusing on rituals and scholarly studies are the followers of the pre-modern tradition.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 23rd, 2023 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
reiun said:
The  "definition . . . of realization" i.e., seeing into one's true nature, is not hard to find. Suggest pages 1 - 5, The Rinzai Zen Way, and or pages 9 - 13, Hidden Zen, both by Meido Roshi.
As for "measurement", that would be assuming it can be measured.

Astus wrote:
There, especially in the latter book, realisation - or 'kensho' - is equated with insight into no-self. As such, it should be identical to the path of seeing (darśanamārga), the first stage (bhūmi) of the bodhisattva path, about what there is plenty to find in the sutras and treatises defining the qualities such a noble being possesses. Although the two (kensho and the path of insight) might not actually be the same, since there is no falling back from the level of a noble being.
If it could not be measured, then affirming another's kensho would not be possible.

Here's one that sounds similar to what shikantaza is supposed to be from the very start (i.e. dropping body and mind):
'Eventually we will be able to enter into a truly profound samadhi and experience the “great death” in which body and mind completely drop away. Emerging from this, we may recognize our true self-less nature and for the first time know the experience of kensho for ourselves.'
(The Rinzai Zen Way, p 71)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 22nd, 2023 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: American Soto Zen
Content:
Astus wrote:
Without any definition or measurement of realisation how could the number of realised beings be asserted?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 4th, 2023 at 5:56 PM
Title: Re: was thinking today
Content:
Astus wrote:
"And how is a mendicant content? It’s when a mendicant is content with robes to look after the body and almsfood to look after the belly. Wherever they go, they set out taking only these things. A Buddhist monk has three robes: a lower robe (sabong or sarong), an upper robe, and an outer cloak. They’re like a bird: wherever it flies, wings are its only burden. In the same way, a mendicant is content with robes to look after the body and almsfood to look after the belly. Wherever they go, they set out taking only these things. That’s how a mendicant is content."
( https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/sujato )

"And how are they one who knows moderation? It’s when a mendicant knows moderation when receiving robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medicines and supplies for the sick. If a mendicant did not know moderation, they would not be called ‘one who knows moderation’. But because they do know moderation, they are called ‘one who knows moderation’. Such is the one who knows the teachings, the one who knows the meaning, the one who has self-knowledge, and the one who knows moderation."
( https://suttacentral.net/an7.68/en/sujato )

"And how does a mendicant eat in moderation? It’s when a mendicant reflects rationally on the food that they eat: ‘Not for fun, indulgence, adornment, or decoration, but only to sustain this body, to avoid harm, and to support spiritual practice. In this way, I shall put an end to old discomfort and not give rise to new discomfort, and I will live blamelessly and at ease.’ That’s how a mendicant eats in moderation."
( https://suttacentral.net/an3.16/en/sujato )

“Eye, ear, nose,
tongue, body, and likewise mind:
a mendicant who makes these
sense doors well guarded—

eating in moderation,
restrained in the sense faculties—
reaps happiness
both physical and mental.

Not burning in body,
not burning in mind,
by day or by night
such a person lives in happiness.”
( https://suttacentral.net/iti29/en/sujato )

"Then Māra the Wicked went up to the Buddha and addressed him in verse:

“What, you’re asleep?
Really, you’re asleep?
You sleep like a loser—
what’s up with that?
You sleep, thinking that the hut is empty.
You sleep when the sun has come up—
what’s up with that?”

“For them there is no craving—
the weaver, the clinger—
to track them anywhere.
With the ending of all attachments
the awakened Buddha sleeps.
What’s that got to do with you, Māra?”

Then Māra … vanished right there."
( https://suttacentral.net/sn4.7/en/sujato )

Once a Vinaya Master came and asked: "In your practice of the Tao, do you still work hard?"
The Master answered: "Yes, I still work hard."
The Vinaya Master asked: "How hard?"
The Master retorted: "If I'm hungry, I eat. If I'm tired, I sleep. "
The Vinaya Master asked: "Do all other people work hard just as you do?"
The Master answered: "No, not in the same way."
The Vinaya Master asked: "Why not?"
The Master answered: "While they are eating, they are not really eating due to too much thinking. While they are sleeping, they are not really sleeping due to too much mental agitation. Therefore, they do not work in the same way I do."
The Vinaya Master, on hearing this, fell silent.
( https://www.ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/tsung-ching-record )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 4th, 2023 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: was thinking today
Content:
Aemilius said:
Are these not a form of trishna (thirst or wanting) ?

Astus wrote:
Craving/thirst is a particular form of intention that is classified into three types: thirst for sensual pleasure (kāmatṛṣṇā / 欲愛), thirst for becoming (bhavatṛṣṇā / 有愛), thirst for not becoming (vibhavatṛṣṇā / 無有愛).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 3rd, 2023 at 7:32 PM
Title: Re: was thinking today
Content:
Aemilius said:
A better and more advanced  view,  or series of views, is expressed in the Hua Yen, which is based on the Avatamsaka sutra.

Astus wrote:
No matter how complicated a view one can conceive, it still comes down to the same distinction between being driven by afflictions or not.

On the idea that 'afflictions are bodhi' (煩惱即菩提) the Platform Sutra (BDK edition) has this:

'Good friends, ordinary people are buddhas, and the afflictions are bodhi. With a preceding moment of deluded thought, one was an ordinary person, but with a succeeding moment of enlightened thought, one is a buddha. To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi.'
(ch 2, p 30)

'The afflictions are bodhi. They are nondual and not separate. If one [tries to] use the illumination of wisdom to destroy the afflictions, this is the interpretation of the two [Hinayana] vehicles [held by] those fit for the sheep and deer [carts]. Those of superior wisdom and Mahayana capabilities are completely different. ... If you want to understand the essentials of the mind, you should simply not think about all the [different types of] good and evil. You will then naturally attain entry into the pure essence of the mind, which is peaceful and always serene, with wondrous functions [as numerous as the] sands of the Ganges River.'
(ch 10, p 80-81)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 3rd, 2023 at 5:26 PM
Title: Re: was thinking today
Content:
master of puppets said:
we know that when the mind is empty the wisdom and the meaning apears. as it reaches everywhere without an obstacle. Then you can become whatever you want. This is called enlightenment.

Astus wrote:
The mind is already empty, like everything else. What unique interpretation do you imply that makes wisdom and 'the meaning' (what meaning?) appear?

If one wants to become something, how is that any different from the basic drive of rebirth, i.e. thirst for being/becoming (bhavatṛṣṇā / 有愛)?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2023 at 8:33 PM
Title: Re: Non-duality and human limits
Content:
JCA said:
Insight and liberation are predicated upon seeing and experiencing the true nature of reality. That nature is non-dual and non-conceptual, according to Buddhists and, more recently, many scientists.

Astus wrote:
The definitions you gave to non-duality (advaya, 不二, gnyis med) and non-conceptuality (nirvikalpa, 無分別, rnam par mi rtog pa) are not how they are understood in Buddhism. Hence the problem with seeing how awakening is possible in this life.

JCA said:
My theory is that we can only become truly enlightened after death, when we are free from the constraints of a physical body, as we know it (I understand the term body is often used for bardo states, as in subtle body).

Astus wrote:
Indeed, your theory, not what is taught in Buddhism.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2023 at 5:42 PM
Title: Refuge: 30 Years of the Dharma Gate in Hungary
Content:
Astus wrote:
A film was made about the Dharma Gate https://www.tkbf.hu/english/dharma-gate-buddhist-church-2/ and https://www.tkbf.hu/english/introduction/ on the occasion of its 30 years of operation in Hungary. It is not a documentary but rather a spiritually inspired introduction of the current state of this unique organisation that encompasses different religious and educational institutions.

The film is freely available on YouTube with English subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbYbFvFHBms


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2023 at 3:43 PM
Title: Re: Non-duality and human limits
Content:
JCA said:
Your definition really describes the “middle way”
Non-duality means - No difference between subject and object.
Non-conceptuality means - transcending a discursive mind characterized by a lack of discreet thoughts and images.
At least those are the meanings as I’m using them in my OP

Astus wrote:
Those definitions describe a type of an absorbed state that is naturally limited to specific circumstances. They are not the non-duality and non-conceptuality that are required for insight and liberation in Buddhism.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2023 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Non-duality and human limits
Content:
JCA said:
In order to make serious progress on the path to enlightenment it is necessary to achieve states of mind that are non-dual and non-conceptual.
However, it seems to me those states of mind are fundamentally incompatible with human existence.

Astus wrote:
Non-dual and non-conceptual mean not falling into extreme views of being and non-being. They're not about some sort of altered state of mind. So there's nothing incompatible with living a functional life, as you can see from the many stories of awakened beings.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2023 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Teachers with clairvoyance, alive
Content:
Astus wrote:
"And what is the demonstration of revealing? In one case, someone reveals the mind, mentality, thoughts, and reflections of other beings and individuals: ‘This is what you’re thinking, such is your thought, and thus is your state of mind.’

Then someone with faith and confidence sees that mendicant revealing another person’s thoughts. They tell someone else who lacks faith and confidence: ‘Oh, how incredible, how amazing! The ascetic has such psychic power and might! I saw him myself, revealing the thoughts of another person!’

But the one lacking faith and confidence would say to them: ‘There’s a spell named Māṇikā. Using that a mendicant can reveal another person’s thoughts.’

What do you think, Kevaḍḍha? Wouldn’t someone lacking faith speak like that?”

“They would, sir.”

“Seeing this drawback in revealing, I’m horrified, repelled, and disgusted by demonstrations of revealing."

( https://suttacentral.net/dn11/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2023 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: How flatworms acquire consciousness?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Sounds like a thousand years old question.

Chan master Yanqing Faduan ... was asked by a government official, ‘When an earthworm is chopped in two and both parts are still moving, in which half is the Buddha-nature?’
The master opened both his hands.
(Dongshan also said, ‘The one posing the question, which half is that?’)
(Records of the Transmission of the Lamp, vol 3, 12.287; https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T51n2076_p0296b24 )

Shengguang split an earthworm while hoeing, then asked:
'Someone today split an earthworm with a hoe. Both its ends move. Which one has life?'
The teacher (Zihu) picked up the hoe, hit down on the left end, hit down on the right end, hit down on the empty middle, threw back the hoe and left.
( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/X68n1315_p0075b15 )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 5th, 2023 at 2:29 PM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
jimmi said:
Why do I need to know that, given the deep insight of DKM?

Astus wrote:
The deep insight of DKM is that there is nothing to get (to know, to obtain). Otherwise it's just ordinary ignorance.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 5th, 2023 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
master of puppets said:
What is it that attained, really?

Astus wrote:
That there's nothing to attain.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2023 at 2:11 PM
Title: Re: Philosophical implications of the emptiness of the teachings themselves
Content:
Astus wrote:
One better not forget conditionality that goes hand in hand with emptiness. Emptiness is not causelessness. Therefore it's not the case that anything can come from anything.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2023 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?
Content:
dpcalder said:
It was my understanding that zazen is nothing more than open monitoring meditation - you just sit in awareness and monitor your thoughts as they arise and fall away, like clouds passing in the sky, and this is all there is to it.

Astus wrote:
Thoughts come and go anyway, no need to monitor them. If anything, it's the posture/body that one might initially pay attention to.

There is this very simplified explanation of zazen on the https://www.sotozen.com/zazen/index.html.

There are three main components of Zazen: Posture, Breathing, Adjusting your mind.

POSTURE
The target of the zazen posture is to sit comfortably and spontaneously. In zazen, you sit in a relaxed manner and releasing the muscles that are usually overused.
Zazen is not painful or difficult if you sit properly.

BREATHING
Breathe slowly through your nose and try to breathe carefully.
If you are not used to this, try to take deep and long breaths, focusing on the exhale.

ADJUSTING YOUR MIND
During zazen, various kinds of thoughts come to mind. It is natural as long as we are alive.
The important thing is not to chase them or hold them.
You do not need to force yourself to think about getting rid of thoughts, becoming nothing, or unifying your mind.

And there was this topic not too long ago: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=42330


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2023 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: 6 Indriyas
Content:
Vajrasambhava said:
But what about thinking? Why we cannot think in this state?
Does this mean the 6th consciousness is governed by brain?
If the answer is "no" then how anesthesia can influence a non-material apparatus?

Astus wrote:
The six types of consciousness are not things that wait around to be used but events of conscious awareness of something. If one closes one's eyes there is no eye-consciousness to talk about, because of the lack of any visual object. If there is a sudden loud noise there is no conscious thinking, nor is there much of it during powerful sensory input (pain/pleasure), although the fact that one is aware of a particular sensory experience means some level of consciousness is there, just not necessarily the speculative kind. Anyhow, this problem of the relationship between body and mind is based on a different view than what is taught by the Buddha, hence he rejected to take part in the debate whether the body and the soul are identical or separate, and even called such views a hindrance to liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2023 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Pratityasamutpada question
Content:
Rick said:
Sorry, I still don't get it. It doesn't make logical sense to me and I don't know how else to assess it!

Astus wrote:
If we say that a tree really exists, that means it exists in and of itself, apart from every other things, and so we say of a seed and a chair as well, both being actually existing objects. That makes it impossible for a seed to grow into a tree, and a tree to become a chair, because all three are independent isolates, existing substantially. A seed is not a tree, so to say that from a seed comes a tree is nonsense, just as saying that from a pebble comes a tree. They are totally unrelated. But if a seed is not a thing in itself, nor is a tree, then there is no real separation as they are mere expressions, meaning that we do not actually find any seed for real, it's simply a made up name not referring to any true entity.
More importantly, all the logic and refutation applied are about removing clinging to ideas, but at the same time not denying the ordinary functionality of things. So it's like: yes, trees grow from seeds and chairs are made of wood, but better not make an issue out of it.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 6:19 PM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Matylda said:
This situation has nothing to do with faith in dharma.
The residency is not dependent on place but ones wish to do it. There are very few people who do it for long in fact.

Astus wrote:
So it seems the issue of the presence of attainment in Soto (and Rinzai) is not related to the teachings and practices, but it's rather an organisational matter where the majority of the temples within Soto exist to serve communal needs of the laity. And there are still a relatively few temples and communities where they focus on the bodhisattva path and follow the teachings of the tradition. Therefore there isn't really some sort of error or decline to fix by adopting or inventing something, and those who actually want to engage in zazen have some places to go and some teachers to learn from.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Matylda said:
Your quotes are very nice but do not reflect the actual situation within soto, which became void of realization. That is the main point and problem.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean like, the majority of the priests are only priests out of family duty or something, not because of the Dharma? If so, isn't that the norm in all the Japanese schools that left behind actual monastic practice? Nevertheless, there can be some who still believe in the words of the Buddha and the ancestors, and therefore follow the precepts, cultivate zazen, etc., don't you think so? Aren't there at least a few training temples with long term residents?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Matylda said:
This is not radical, but correct teaching of zen.

Astus wrote:
Why do you object then to the doctrine of zazen being practice-realisation?

'Someone who seeks the Way doesn't look beyond himself. He knows that the mind is the Way. But when he finds the mind, he finds nothing. And when he finds the Way, he finds nothing. If you think you can use the mind to find the Way, you're deluded. When you're deluded, buddhahood exists. When you're aware, it doesn't exist. This is because awareness is buddhahood.'
(Wake-up Sermon, in The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, p 59; T48, no. 2009, p. 371c10-13)

'To see form but not be corrupted by form or to hear sound but not be corrupted by sound is liberation. Eyes that aren't attached to form are the Gates of Zen. Ears that aren't attached to sound are also the Gates of Zen. In short, those who perceive the existence and nature of phenomena and remain unattached are liberated. Those who perceive the external appearance of phenomena are at their mercy. Not to be subject to affliction is what's meant by liberation. There's no other liberation. When you know how to look at form, form doesn't give rise to mind and mind doesn't give rise to form. Form and mind are both pure.'
(Wake-up Sermon, in The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, p 61; T48, no. 2009, p. 371c17-23)

'Do not think "good" or "bad." Do not judge true or false. Give up the operations of mind, intellect, and consciousness; stop measuring with thoughts, ideas, and views. Have no designs on becoming a buddha. How could that be limited to sitting or lying down?'
( https://www.sotozen.com/eng/practice/zazen/advice/fukanzanzeng.html )

'We just sit. Still many different kinds of thought come and go naturally. It is very clear that thoughts, emotions, and daydreams are illusions like bubbles rising in water. We let go of them. No clinging to them, chasing after them, or pushing them away. We really do nothing but sit.'
(A Path of Just Sitting, in https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/leaflet/sotozen/index.html, p 18)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Pratityasamutpada question
Content:
Rick said:
Nagarjuna said: "Neither from itself nor from another Nor from both, Nor without a cause Does anything anywhere, ever arise." This seems to negate causality. But the ultimate truth is sunyata, which is grounded in pratityasamutpada, which involves causality. I'm confused!

Astus wrote:
Causality is how things seem to operate on a conventional level, but when analysed, there is no reality found in that. It is only without any reality in it that causality can work (because no arising from itself (cause and result are exactly the same) or from other (cause and result are totally separate) is possible), and that's how emptiness and dependent origination go together.
Might also check Madhyamakavatara 6.33-38, it has now quite a few commentaries available in English.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2023 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Tao said:
The one that brings 無念 and 非思量 when not sitting.

Astus wrote:
They're not limited to sitting.

'It continues in an unbroken cycle, so that there is not the slightest interval between establishment of the mind, training, bodhi, and nirvana: conduct and observance is a continuing cycle.'
(Gyoji, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 163)

'In zazen both body and mind drop off. Zazen is far beyond the form of sitting or lying down.'
( https://antaiji.org/en/classics/english-zazen-yojinki/ )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2023 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Matylda said:
no-thought etc. is job of a realized teacher to explain/show what this really means. It is not realm of scholars or just people who practice zen. Bodhidharma clearly spoke about kensho, and warned that those without kensho will make big mistakes.

Astus wrote:
If one requires awakening before engaging in zazen, then that's a clear rejection of the basic doctrine emphasised by Dogen, and the Soto tradition in general, that practice and enlightenment are one.

Of the usual texts attributed to Bodhidharma (少室六門; T2009), kensho (見性) is mentioned in the Bloodstream Sermon (血脈論). However, if we look at that text, it is quite the radical type of Zen that dispenses with all forms of practice, seated meditation included.

'To find a Buddha all you have to do is see your nature (見性). Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person who's free: free of plans, free of cares. If you don't see your nature and run around all day looking somewhere else, you'll never find a buddha. The truth is there's nothing to find.'
(The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, p 13; T48, no. 2009, p. 373c17-20)

'To attain enlightenment (成佛) you have to see your nature (見性). Unless you see your nature, all this talk about cause and effect is nonsense (外道法). Buddhas don't practice nonsense. A Buddha free of karma free of cause and effect. To say he attains anything at all is to slander a Buddha. What could he possibly attain? Even focusing on a mind, a power, an understanding, or a view is impossible for a Buddha. A Buddha isn't one sided. The nature of his mind is basically empty, neither pure nor impure. He's free of practice and realization (無修無證).'
(p 17; p. 374a15-20)

'People who don't see their nature (見性) and imagine they can practice thoughtlessness (無作想) all the time are liars and fools. They fall into endless space. They're like drunks. They can't tell good from evil. If you intend to cultivate such a practice (無作法), you have to see your nature (見性) before you can put an end to rational thought (息緣慮). To attain enlightenment without seeing your nature is impossible.'
(p 19; p. 374a24-27)

'Buddha is Sanskrit for what you call aware (覺性), miraculously aware (靈覺). Responding, arching your brows blinking your eyes, moving your hands and feet, its all your miraculously aware nature. And this nature is the mind. And the mind is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the path. And the path is Zen. But the word Zen is one that remains a puzzle to both mortals and sages. Seeing your nature (見本性) is Zen. Unless you see your nature, it's not Zen.'
(p 29; p. 375a5-9)

'Once mortals see their nature (見本性), all attachments end. Awareness (神識) isn't hidden. But you can only find it right now. It's only now. If you really want to find the Way, don't hold on to anything. Once you put an end to karma and nurture your awareness (神), any attachments that remain will come to an end. Understanding comes naturally. You don't have to make any effort. But fanatics (外道) don't understand what the Buddha meant. And the harder they try, the farther they get from the Sage's meaning. All day long they invoke Buddhas and read sutras. But they remain blind to their own divine nature (神性), and they don't escape the Wheel.
A buddha is an idle person. He doesn't run around after fortune and fame. What good are such things in the end? People who don't see their nature (見性) and think reading sutras, invoking Buddhas', studying long and hard, practicing morning and night, never lying down (長坐不臥), or acquiring knowledge is the Dharma, blaspheme the Dharma. Buddhas of the past and future only talk about seeing your nature (見性). All practices are impermanent. Unless they see their nature (見性) people who claim to have attained unexcelled, complete enlightenment are liars.'
(p 35-37;  p. 375b22-c3)

'Basically, seeing, hearing, and knowing (見聞覺知) are completely empty (本自圓寂). Your anger, Joy, or pain is like that of puppet. You can search but you won't find a thing. According to the sutras, evil deeds result in hardships and good deeds result in blessings. Angry people go to hell and happy people go to heaven. But once you know that the nature of anger and joy is empty and you let them go, you free yourself from karma.'
(p 45; p. 376b2-6)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2023 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
reiun said:
The best explication of clearly defined practice methods that you can trust would be in either of Meido Moore Roshi's two books, or even one of his videos on Youtube. Clearly defining practice methods is one of his core teachings in his books.

Astus wrote:
That's something specific to what he teaches. I meant something more universal in Zen, not limited to modern Rinzai.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2023 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Matylda said:
It is very clear. Satori. Kensho how it was originally taught by Bodhidharma or the 6th patriarch.

Astus wrote:
'To be enlightened (悟) to this Dharma is to be without thought (無念).'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 31; T48, no. 2008, p. 350c6-7)

'To be enlightened (悟) to the Dharma of nonthought (無念) is to see (見) the realms of [all] the buddhas. To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to arrive at the stage of buddhahood.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 34; T48, no. 2008, p. 351b4-5)

Nonthought (無念) is practically no different from non-thinking (非思量), and non-thinking is the essence of just sitting (只管打坐). That should mean that the teaching of zazen as practice-verification is very clear and authentic. What other satori and kensho could be lacking?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2023 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
reiun said:
This may or may not clear up your challenge about zen doctrinal tenets:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrinal_background_of_Zen

Astus wrote:
That article is quite a mixture of disorganised ideas without much relevance to Zen's historical development.

reiun said:
But zen emphazizes direct experience of reality through  clearly defined practice methods.

Astus wrote:
Could you name some of those clearly defined practice methods? For instance, anything similar found in the works of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dushun, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhiyi, or in the so called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_sutras?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2023 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Matylda said:
Well, zen should be just one clear stream, as it was originally. The lineage should be secondary issue in fact.

Astus wrote:
Clear stream in what sense? Zen has been without any clearly defined doctrinal tenets or practical methods, and it's been primarily the idea of a special lineage that has kept it apart from the rest of the Buddhist community from the beginning.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 6:44 PM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Tao said:
The impression I get is that there're two Zen, Dogen Zen and the rest.
Dogen Zen or Soto (but not Caodong) is very different, probably unique in buddhism.

Astus wrote:
I find Dogen's approach generally consistent with Zen before/without the investigation of the phrase (kanhua) method introduced by Dahui, something that Dogen directly opposed, unlike his near contemporary Jinul in Korea who eventually embraced it. But before Jinul championed the new trend, here's how he had explained Zen practice:

'Cultivators nowadays belong to the Buddha’s spiritual family. They rely upon the direct-pointing (chikchi 直指) approach of the Sudden school, and, having developed firm faith and understanding, they straightaway comprehend that their own minds are perpetually calm and ever alert. Since they initiate their cultivation on such a foundation, even though they cultivate the manifold practices [of the bodhisattva], they only regard no-thought (munyŏm 無念) as their core and nonconstruction (mujak 無作, akṛtaka) as their basis. Because of this no-thought and nonconstruction, their practice is free from any temporal (sigŏp 時劫) or soteriological (chiwi 地位) sequences and also devoid of any sign of discrimination between dharmas and their aspects (dharmārtha). Since their cultivation is complete, approaches to dharma as numerous as dust motes and the meritorious qualities developed on all the bhūmis are also complete in the essence of their sublime minds, which is accordingly the same as a wish-fulfilling gem (cintāmaṇi).'
(Encouragement to Practice: The Compact of the Samādhi and Prajñā Society, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 148-149)

Here the terms 'calm and alert' (寂惺) are equivalents of samādhi and prajñā (定慧), and also of 'silent illumination' (默照). Ven. Sheng-yen practically reintroduced the practice of silent illumination that has been out of fashion in Chan for centuries.

'Silent Illumination is another name for shamata-vipashyana, the meditative practice of stilling the mind and developing insight into its true nature. This practice originated in Indian Buddhism as early as the time of Shakyamuni Buddha. Traditionally, shamata-vipashyana was practiced sequentially. A practitioner progressed from shamata (stilling the mind) to vipashyana (insight, or illumination). The first stage was to practice shamata to achieve samadhi and then to practice vipashyana to achieve levels of insight. By contrast, in Chan Buddhism, which emphasizes the sudden approach to realization, shamata and vipashyana are practiced simultaneously.'
(The Method of No-Method, p 3)

'In silence there is illumination; in illumination there is silence—the two cannot be separated. If separated, they are reduced to the practices of shamata to enter samadhi and vipashyana to gain insight.'
(p 63)

'It is empty of subject or object, devoid of one who engages in Silent Illumination; it is free from dualities and self-reference. Because it is empty, it is spacious; because it is spacious, it is all-encompassing; because it is all-encompassing, it includes myriad forms. Yet it is not a mere void. This function of illumination enlivens everything, bringing to light the myriad forms. Thus in the silence there is illumination; in silence the “empty” and the “luminous” are united. It illumines in self-purity says that there is also illumination in silence. This self-purity is free of coloring or defilement. This is not defilement in the moralistic sense, but means being free of self-attachment and vexation, free from external influences. Since there is no self, there is also no notion of one who illumines. Yet this illumination does exist in the mind of one who encounters it. Sentient beings who come across greatly enlightened practitioners perceive that they are being helped, but for the bodhisattva there is no purity nor is there an illuminated mind. It is just a spontaneous and natural way of being, and sentient beings deliver themselves in response. Beyond the workings of causes and conditions means transcending the cycle of birth and death, the world of dependent origination, of samsara. Apart from subject and object means to be without the obstructions of subject-object dualisms. This is a state of one who has gained liberation; for such a practitioner there are no more hindrances. He or she has consummated the practice of Silent Illumination. This is sudden enlightenment.'
(p 67)

'On the one hand we seize and halt this mind of clinging and vexations, and on the other hand we polish this mirror-mind to restore its luminosity. This is shamata-vipashyana, or stillness and contemplation done together—which is Silent Illumination. However much we can silence the mind and free it from vexation and clinging, to that extent we will be able to illumine it.'
(p 81)

And a short explanation from one of Ven. Sheng-yen's disciples:

'“Silence” is the metaphor for the wisdom of emptiness. So are quiescence, formlessness, spaciousness, stillness. These are all Hongzhi’s poetic terms for the Mahayana teaching of selflessness. “Illumination” refers to the wondrous activity of this selfless wisdom that, in Buddhism, is none other than compassion. Just as wisdom and compassion are inseparable, so are silence and illumination. They are simply two aspects of our natural awakened buddha-nature within.'
(Silent Illumination: A Chan Buddhist Path to Natural Awakening by Guo Gu, p 5)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Tao said:
how the Soto view can be mantained when post-kensho it's so obvious that meditation has changed so radically? (towards good) and you see your previous meditation as a poor intent.

Astus wrote:
Kensho is to arrive at the realisation of the nature of mind. Shikantaza is a practice with the realisation of the nature of mind. So it is to the level of shikantaza that one should arrive at post-kensho.

Tao said:
In Tíbet first is the path of seeing, then the meditational path. Which agrees clearly with Rinzai view (and the experience of many).

Astus wrote:
That is the gradual path. However, the beginning is not the path of seeing but the path of accumulation, at least in the https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Five_paths system used in Tibet. In East Asian Buddhism the https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/%E4%BA%94%E5%8D%81%E4%BA%8C%E4%BD%8D system is used, that begins with the 10 stages of faith, then 30 more stages before one arrives at stage 41 that is the first bhumi, what is equivalent to the path of seeing.

Tao said:
I always found the Soto view to be hard to mantain for persons who have realized the nature of mind. I dont know if I'm missing something... Because it's so obvious that there's a big change after kensho.

Astus wrote:
Maybe it is not the nature of mind that was found, or it is not the Soto view itself that seems off.

Tao said:
BTW how is Ch'an or Thien on this matter?

Astus wrote:
There is no unified or official Chan view (and I assume no central Thien view either). Generally speaking, since kanhua is the usual path, the approach is similar to Rinzai. That is, students most often need the tool of the huatou in order to break through the discriminating mind and arrive at no-thought to be settled in buddha-nature.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2023 at 5:54 PM
Title: Re: Is zazen a form of open monitoring meditation?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Since it is relatively common, can you point to a correct translation then?

Astus wrote:
'shikan taza. (C. zhiguan dazuo; K. chigwan t’ajwa 祇/只管打坐). In Japanese, “just sitting”; a style of meditation emblematic of the Japanese SŌTŌSHŪ of ZEN, in which the act of sitting itself is thought to be the manifestation of enlightenment.'
(The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism, p 804-805)

The term zhiguan/shikan 只管 comes up a lot in the Blue Cliff Record for instance. The first two examples:

In case 3, tr Cleary:
'People mostly do not see Hsueh Tou's meaning, but only (只管) say that he is ridiculing the state.'
(T48, no. 2003, p. 143a21-22)

In case 4, tr Cleary:
'Look at how the old adept Kuei Shan meets him; he just (只管) sits there and observes the outcome.'
(T48, no. 2003, p. 144a5-6)

Also appears in the Book of Serenity (case 5), tr Cleary:
'Only (只管) concerned with village songs and festival drinking'
(T48, no. 2004, p. 230b14)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2023 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Is zazen a form of open monitoring meditation?
Content:
Matylda said:
In fact one cannot find in any teachings such classification. It is Western product. Futile.

Astus wrote:
That Zen is the unification of concentration (定, samadhi) and wisdom (慧, prajna) is explained in the fourth chapter of the Platform Sutra, and by various later masters. As for Dogen, he wrote:

'in the state of clearly realizing the buddha-nature there is practice, which is the equal practice of balance and wisdom (定慧 - samadhi and prajna).'
(Bussho, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 24; https://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2018/T2582_.82.0098c27.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2023 at 7:59 PM
Title: Re: Is zazen a form of open monitoring meditation?
Content:
dpcalder said:
As opposed to the focused attention meditation more often associated with Theravada Buddhism?

Astus wrote:
Zazen simply means seated meditation. What type of meditation happens while seated can vary. First of all, to make it a Buddhist meditation (sammāsamādhi - right immersion), other elements of the path have to be present as well.

'And what is noble right immersion with its vital conditions and its prerequisites? They are: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness. Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble right immersion with its vital conditions and also with its prerequisites.'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato )

In case of the bodhisattva path it is similar ( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225915.html ), for meditation (dhyāna) to be a perfection (pāramitā) it requires the perfection of wisdom (prajñāpāramitā).

The Zen view on the connection between meditation (samādhi) and wisdom (prajñā) is that they are inseparable:

'Meditation and wisdom are of one essence, not different. Meditation is the essence of wisdom, and wisdom is the function of meditation. At times
of wisdom, meditation exists in that wisdom; at times of meditation, wisdom exists in that meditation.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 4, BDK ed, p 41-42)

And in the same chapter it is written:

'Good friends, there are also those who teach meditation [in terms of] viewing the mind, contemplating tranquility, motionlessness, and nonactivation. You are supposed to make an effort on the basis of these. These deluded people do not understand, and in their grasping become mixed up like all of you here. You should understand that such superficial teachings are greatly mistaken!'
(p 43)

The way it is put into practice has various names, one common label is nonthought/no-thought/non-thinking (wunian 無念). Again, from the Platform Sutra:

'Good friends, in wisdom’s contemplation both interior and exterior are clearly penetrated, and one recognizes one’s own fundamental mind. If you recognize your fundamental mind, this is the fundamental emancipation. And if you attain emancipation, this is the samādhi of prajñā, this is nonthought.
What is nonthought? If in seeing all the dharmas, the mind is not defiled or attached, this is nonthought. [The mind’s] functioning pervades all locations, yet it is not attached to all the locations. Just purify the fundamental mind, causing the six consciousnesses to emerge from the six [sensory] gates, [causing one to be] without defilement or heterogeneity within the six types of sensory data (literally, the “six dusts”), autonomous in the coming and going [of mental phenomena], one’s penetrating function without stagnation. This is the samādhi of prajñā, the autonomous emancipation. This is called the practice of nonthought.
If one does not think of the hundred things in order to cause thought to be eradicated, this is bondage within the Dharma. This is called an extreme view.
Good friends, to be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is for the myriad dharmas to be completely penetrated. To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to see the realms of [all] the buddhas. To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to arrive at the stage of buddhahood.'
(ch 2, p 33)

This was summarised by Guifeng Zongmi in the following words:

'When you are aware that all characteristics are void, it is true mind, no mindfulness (wunian 無念). If a thought arises, be aware of it; once you are aware of it, it will disappear. The excellent gate of practice lies here alone.'
(Chan Letter, in Zongmi on Chan, p 88; https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T48n2015_p0403a04 )

The main instruction is included in The Manual of Zazen Practice by Changlu Zongze:

'One must not delve into thoughts that arise, whether good or bad. As soon as a thought arises, he must become aware of it. He must always be aware of what arises in the sphere of consciousness without losing clear discrimination, and without becoming dull or scattered. A myriad of years is nothing but one moment of thought, which is neither discontinuous nor continuous. This is the essential Way (or method) of Zen practice. Zazen is in itself the doctrinal gateway of “comfort and ease.”'
(The Baizhang Zen Monastic Regulations, BDK ed, p 256; https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T48n2025_p1143a12 )

And based on that Dogen wrote his zazen manual that says:

'Sitting in balance in the mountain-still state, think the concrete state of not thinking. How can the state of not thinking be thought? It is non-thinking (hishiryō 非思量). This is the real secret of zazen. Sitting in zazen is not learning Zen meditation. It is the great peaceful and joyful gate of Dharma. It is untainted practice and experience.'
(Zazengi, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 3, p 226; https://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2018/T2582_.82.0217c08.html )

Whether it is called the perfection of meditation, no-thought, or non-thinking, the main point is that it is founded upon the insight of emptiness, that no matter what experience occurs, it cannot be grasped, and there is nobody to grasp it. So, 'open monitoring', just letting thoughts come and go, is insufficient without recognising that thoughts come and go anyway.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2023 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I’ll grant you that. Shin Buddhism is totally faith based. But why is that? Because practically all other schools of Buddhism are philosophical, and Shin Buddhism is an alternative to that (because in this degenerating era, etc).

Astus wrote:
Maybe one could say that there are some schools that are more philosophical looking, like the Gelugpas and some branches of Theravada with a strong emphasis on Abhidhamma, but otherwise not so much. Pure Land and Chan are the two most common traditions in East Asia, and they're explicitly non-philosophical. The Thai Forest Tradition and other similar Theravada communities elsewhere are not too keen on theorising either. The Nyingmapas and Kagyupas, although they have their shedras, are otherwise quite practice oriented and uphold their meditative traditions as paramount. And then when looking at the majority of Buddhists, most of them lay people, their engagement with the Dharma is primarily about prayers, ceremonies, and donations.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Within the scope of Buddhist traditions in general, Shin and Nichiren can probably be regarded as the exceptions to the rule.

Astus wrote:
I don't really see that. Note: those two also run universities in Japan.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 7:58 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
And various aspects of its teachings also make it a philosophy. I don’t understand your insistence that it can’t be both.

Astus wrote:
Philosophy in religion and religion in philosophy are somewhat different. The former means reasoning founded upon religious elements (revealed theology) or aimed at proving religious teachings (natural theology). The latter is thinking about religious ideas without being based on or arriving at a specific doctrine.
What makes something a Buddhist philosophy is that it may accept the Buddha's words as true from the beginning, and/or it is aimed at fulfilling the goal of Buddhism by guiding to teachings that are viewed as liberating. The second type is illustrated by the simile of the arrow ( https://suttacentral.net/mn63/en/sujato ), and that shows well why philosophising may actually seem contrary to Buddhism.

PadmaVonSamba said:
The Buddha offered logical arguments and methods of reasoning in his teachings. That’s philosophy.

Astus wrote:
One may also find such arguments in the Bible and other religious texts as well.

PadmaVonSamba said:
But while its religious practices are not held by every follower of the Buddha’s teachings, its philosophical components are.

Astus wrote:
How much philosophy is required to recite the name of Amitabha? Honen wrote:

'Reciting the nembutsu does not come from studying and understanding its meaning.'
( http://www.jodo.org/teachings/teachings02.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 4:51 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
So, you’re saying that Buddhism exists today as a something identified with, and labeled as, a religious structure, and is therefore a religion because two or more people think it is.

Astus wrote:
Of the various words the term religion covers the different aspects that are part of Buddhism. Calling it a philosophy does not account for many ordinary elements like stupas and prayers, nor for the different meditative practices.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 4:47 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Speaking strictly for myself, Buddhadharma us not a religion, philosophy, or belief. It’s direct knowledge of one’s own state.

Astus wrote:
But that 'direct knowledge of one’s own state' has a specific meaning to it, doesn't it? It could mean simply knowing when to eat and when to sleep. Like, mindful eating ( https://suttacentral.net/sn3.13/en/sujato ) and mindful sleeping ( https://suttacentral.net/an5.210/en/sujato ) are good and beneficial, but those have temporary results, they're not the goal.

“Reverend, the spiritual life is lived under the Buddha to know, see, attain, realize, and comprehend that which is unknown, unseen, unattained, unrealized, and uncomprehended.”
“But what is the unknown, unseen, unattained, unrealized, and uncomprehended?”
“‘This is suffering.’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’ … This is the unknown, unseen, unattained, unrealized, and uncomprehended. The spiritual life is lived under the Buddha to know, see, attain, realize, and comprehend this.”
( https://suttacentral.net/an9.13/en/sujato )

That type of direct knowledge of the four noble truths has its purpose.

'Purification of knowledge and vision is only for the sake of extinguishment by not grasping. The spiritual life is lived under the Buddha for the sake of extinguishment by not grasping.'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn24/en/sujato )

Therefore,

'This spiritual life is lived for the sake of restraint, giving up, fading away, and cessation.'
( https://suttacentral.net/an4.25/en/sujato; Iti 35)

'I taught the Dhamma to my disciples in order to rightly end suffering in every way.'
( https://suttacentral.net/an4.245/en/sujato )

So when it comes to eating and sleeping, there's more to it then being aware of them, or even directly knowing.

'When hungry, eat;
Tired, sleep.
Fools laugh at me,
But the wise know its wisdom.'
(Enjoying the Way by Nanyue Mingzan, tr Jeff Shore)

That's not the same as ordinary people eating and sleeping. Huihai explained:

'While they are eating, they are not really eating due to too much thinking. While they are sleeping, they are not really sleeping due to too much mental agitation. Therefore, they do not work in the same way I do.'
( https://ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/tsung-ching-record )

In the suttas:

'When solid food is completely understood, desire for the five kinds of sensual stimulation is completely understood. When desire for the five kinds of sensual stimulation is completely understood, a noble disciple is bound by no fetter that might return them again to this world.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.63/en/sujato )

'A brahmin who is fully extinguished
always sleeps at ease.
Sensual pleasures slip off them,
they’re cooled, free of attachments.
Since they’ve cut off all clinging,
and removed the stress from the heart,
the peaceful sleep at ease,
having found peace of mind.'
( https://suttacentral.net/an3.35/en/sujato, https://suttacentral.net/sn10.8/en/sujato )

Both the temporary and the permanent peace of mind is beyond the worldly, rightly called transcendental.

'Withdrawn into the forest,
Alone, he wipes out his faults.
In calm and rest, he attains single-mindedness;
His happiness is greater than divine.
People seek wealth, nobility and profit,
Fame, garments and comfortable beds,
But their happiness is not peace:
The search for profit is insatiable.
He who wears the robes and begs his food
Does not know restlessness; his mind is always fixed.
With the eye of wisdom
He contemplates the True [nature] of dharmas.
Into all kinds of sermons
He penetrates with the view of sameness.
Wisdom and peace of mind
Have no equal in the threefold world.'
( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225325.html; and http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/N6P_excerpts/N6P_X-Bk4_X-07.pdf )

So, even if what are commonly seen as supernatural elements and 'all the ancillary stuff' are put aside, there are the absorptions and liberation, each to be recognised as 'a footprint of the Realized One' ( https://suttacentral.net/mn24/en/sujato ), beyond the scope of those occupied by mundane matters and conventional thoughts. These could even be called religious experiences.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
But isn’t that only because one is matching it up with what one already categorizes as “religion”?
And what are the components of that? Temples? Statues? Candles? Celestial beings?

Astus wrote:
Yes, Buddhism fits the category of religion because it looks like the other things that are called religions.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Yet is my birthday party a religious activity?

Astus wrote:
It could be a religious activity if the people participating in it viewed it as such and if it was a manifestation of a complex system of beliefs and practices. Think of the difference between Christmas being celebrated at home using mostly identical elements by a Christian and a non-Christian family.

PadmaVonSamba said:
My point is, it’s not the activity of the structure itself which makes something a matter of religion.
Religion is faith, faith is believing something to be true without having any other reason to assume it is true.

Astus wrote:
Faith without activity, without structure, without community, etc. is not a religion but simply a personal belief. And if it's only activity without belief, then it's a custom. If it's just a structure without belief, then it's an organisation. If it's a community without the shared principles, then it's a group of friends. If it's just a set of ideas without personal engagement, then it's a thought. And so on.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Buddhism can be a philosophy, or a science, or a religion. It really depends on who you are and what your expectations are. For example, HHDL said, "Buddhism is more than a religion. It is a science of the mind."

Astus wrote:
That's playing with labels, which is fine, since they stand for various ideas and feelings depending on the person who uses them. In the end what matters is to get clear on what Buddhism is about, as I quoted Phra Payutto's words on that https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=663589#p663589.

The general concept of religion, when looked into, can be problematic. An example:

'The Ministry of Education published a new primer for teaching Buddhism in schools [Buddhadharmaya. Mul pota (Education Dept., Colombo, 1965).], intended for study by six-year-olds, no doubt the first book in a projected series. In the first paragraph of the introduction occurs the sentence, 'The Buddhist religion is not a religion' ('Buddhāgamaya āgamayek no vē'). This is immediately amplified: 'In the Buddhist religion there is no religion limited to offerings and devotions. The Buddhist religion is a way of life.' ('Puda pūjā, ädahilivalaṭa sīmā vū āgamayek Buddhāgamayē näta. Buddhāgamaya jīvana kramayeki.') Didactically this may be admirable, but the amplification was not enough to avert attention and wrath from the simple statement that Buddhism is not a religion, a statement which through the very exigencies of the Sinhalese language stands in a self-contradictory form! There was a political storm: the Marxists who were in the coalition government had obviously infiltrated the Ministry of Education; this was part of their campaign to abolish Buddhism. Some of those who started these charges may have been disingenuous, but the Sinhalese villagers who heard them may be forgiven if not only the six-year-olds were unable to grasp the sophisticated claim that their religion was no religion.'
(Buddhist Precept and Practice: Traditional Buddhism in the Rural Highlands of Ceylon by Richard F. Gombrich, Routledge, 1995, p 74)

Damien Keown tries to answer the question whether Buddhism is a religion or not by using a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninian_Smart#Dimensions_of_religion created by Ninian Smart. Here is the conclusion:

'Once we begin to think of a religion as an organism with various dimensions, however, it becomes easier to see how Buddhism -- despite its unusual and distinctive features -- can take its place among the family of world religions. Returning to our original question, we can also see why it would be inadequate to define Buddhism simply as a philosophy, a way of life, or a code of ethics. It includes all of these things and sometimes seems to present itself predominantly in one of these modes. However, this depends largely on the perspective from which it is being viewed, and the extent to which some of its dimensions are being ignored. If someone wishes to see Buddhism as a rational philosophy free of religious superstition, then -- by focusing on the doctrinal and philosophical dimension -- it can be understood in this way. If another wishes to see it essentially as a quest for mystical experience, then -- by making the experiential dimension central -- that too is possible. Finally, someone who wishes to see Buddhism as a set of humanistic moral values will also find justification for that view by making the ethical and legal dimension primary. 
I have mentioned these particular interpretations of Buddhism because they are ones which have proved popular with Westerners in the course of the last century. While not altogether illegitimate, they suffer from being incomplete, and typically represent a reaction of some kind to the perceived deficiencies of religion in the West. To focus on just one of the dimensions of Buddhism in this way is to make the same mistake as the blind men did in grasping hold of just one part of the elephant.'
(Buddhism: A Very Short Introduction, p 14-16)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 6:43 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Aren’t you are saying that faith in (let’s call it) ‘the ‘unprovable stuff’ is essential to practice Mahayana? But then you are saying that one doesn’t have to believe in ‘unprovable stuff’ if one isn’t on the Bodhisattva path?
So doesn’t mean that faith isn’t required?

Astus wrote:
Mahayana begins with the intention to attain buddhahood to liberate all beings. At the time of aspiration there is no direct knowledge of what buddhahood is, nor of many other elements of the path needed to get there. Furthermore, unless one reduces the meaning of the terms like 'bodhisattva' and 'all beings', and does not take into account the Jatakas and other accounts of bodhisattvas, there are necessarily rebirth and other things involved.
As for faith in Buddhism in general, if one interprets it as a temporary method to alleviate some stress, then not much is needed apart from trusting in the outcome. But that seems to fall short of being a follower of the Triple Jewel.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 5:44 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Then philosophy is also religion, since in them all unverifiable elements exist.

Astus wrote:
The unverifiable elements were mentioned in reference to a https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=663457#p663457 that stated: 'It’s in the believing of things which one cannot verify for oneself that makes one’s approach to Buddhism a religious one rather than a philosophical one.'

One possible key difference between a religious and a philosophical approach is that in the former the source of and the authority over truth is in a set of doctrines, while in the latter it is systematic thinking (generally speaking).

Malcolm said:
Clearly Buddha understood he was living in a pluralistic society, otherwise, there would be no reason for his teaching the four solaces.

Astus wrote:
And so the distinction between the various levels of engaging in Buddhism has been maintained in the traditions. The lowest of teachings/vehicles, that of gods and humans (e.g. Treatise on the Origin of Humanity, in Three Short Treatises, BDK ed, p 153-155; Gateway to Knowledge, vol 3, ch 15), is the teaching of moral behaviour, for what the fundamental belief in ethical causality is required.

'when an individual has wrong view, whatever bodily, verbal, or mental deeds they undertake in line with that view, their intentions, aims, wishes, and choices all lead to what is unlikable, undesirable, disagreeable, harmful, and suffering.'
( https://suttacentral.net/an1.314/en/sujato )

'a mendicant whose view and development of the path is pointing the wrong way cannot break ignorance, produce knowledge, and realize extinguishment.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn45.9/en/sujato )

Apart from being a wrong view, it is also called the view of a bad person ( https://suttacentral.net/mn110/en/sujato ), a failure in view ( https://suttacentral.net/an3.117/en/sujato ), and a lost opportunity ( https://suttacentral.net/an8.29/en/sujato ). It is a view that comes from grasping at the aggregates ( https://suttacentral.net/sn24.5/en/sujato ), and as such it is abandoned by those who enter the stream.

'Whoever One may be, especially if striving to perform one’s religious duty, one should believe firmly in the law of causality. If one lacks this belief and does whatever one likes, not only will one fail in the performance of religious duty, but also there will be no escape from this law (of causality) even in the three unhappy ways.'
( https://www.emptycloud.net/articles-2/chan-meditation-%E7%A6%85/the-chan-training/ / https://www.hrfjw.com/fjrw/hcrw/xyfs/68094.html )

'the prerequisites of all those who would enter upon the vehicle of [any spiritual] path are the three kinds of faith. When, among these, one is motivated mainly by the faith born of conviction in the results  of past actions, [it is clear that] the attainment of virtuous actions by means of the four correct ways of progressing [on the path] will itself be preliminary to engaging in the vehicle of the exalted realms.'
(The Treasury of Knowledge, vol 4, p 422-423)

Malcolm said:
And yet, HHDL famously stated, "my religion is kindness."

Astus wrote:
If kindness alone qualifies as religion, then Buddhism is surely a religion. But most probably there's more to his religion than kindness.

Malcolm said:
As do all philosophies, and thus all philosophies are rightly called religions, and all religions are rightly called philosophies.

Astus wrote:
Not all philosophies accept the existence of something supernatural, as there are the various versions of materialism and physicalism.

Malcolm said:
So what do you think? Bodhisattva or not a Bodhisattva? Nishijima certainly recited the bodhisattva vow daily.

Astus wrote:
There are even atheist Christian ministers ( https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-14417362 ), but that doesn't make Christianity in general not a religion.

Malcolm said:
So, can one take the bodhisattva vow and reject transmigration?

Astus wrote:
It is contradictory to do so, but it's always good to have the attitude of a bodhisattva.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 5:33 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
But by that criteria, only those who have taken a Bodhisattva vow are practicing Buddhists. Is that what you are saying?

Astus wrote:
No. Those who have taken the bodhisattva vows are the followers of the bodhisattva path. Not all Buddhists follow the bodhisattva path.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm said:
And? It is not necessary to believe in rebirth to practice Dharma:

Astus wrote:
Sure, one can practise some elements (the https://suttacentral.net/mn60/en/sujato is a nice one on it, while at the same time note how the https://suttacentral.net/mn76/en/sujato calls annihilationism an approach that negates spiritual life), but that's not the issue. For Buddhism to be excluded from the category of religion, there would have to be some version of it where the unverifiable elements do not exist.

Malcolm said:
Certainly the Buddha taught rebirth, but he did not expect people to necessarily accept it.

Astus wrote:
It is repeatedly called wrong view, the opposite of right view, that https://suttacentral.net/mn114/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=none&highlight=false&script=latin#10.1. So, it is expected, as much as having right view is expected.

Malcolm said:
Without compassion, there are no bodhisattvas at all, which is why Candrakīrti prostrates to compassion, rather than the Buddha, bodhisattvas, or even bodhicitta. So lets begin with that.

Astus wrote:
Compassion is not limited to Mahayana, or to Buddhism. So that would be an insufficient criteria to label one's view/practice/philosophy something specific.

Malcolm said:
The fact is that all Buddharma can be approached as a religion, as philosophy, or as both.

Astus wrote:
'Indeed, Buddhism can be either a religion or a philosophy, or it can be neither. It may even be called a science, a psychology, a way of life, and so on. To apply any of these terms may be either right or wrong according to what we mean by such terms. In other words, it depends on the usage and implication of the term in question. In any event, it does not matter what we call Buddhism. What really matters is why Buddhism is called so, i.e. what is meant by Buddhism.'
(Some Basic Concepts of Buddhism by Phra Payutto, in https://www.watnyanaves.net/uploads/File/books/pdf/vision_of_the_dhamma_a_collection_of_buddhist_writings_in_english.pdf, p 148)

Malcolm said:
In any case, there are many people who consider themselves Mahāyānis who nevertheless do not accept rebirth, particularly in your school.

Astus wrote:
I'm not trying to set up or prove some sort of barrier or criteria for who is or is not a real Buddhist. The point is simply that all Buddhist traditions accept a good number of supernatural elements as facts, so Buddhism is rightly called a religion.

'People interested in Chan practice often find it difficult to have religious faith. As faith is intrinsically emotional, and Chan practitioners emphasize personal cultivation to gain physical and mental benefits or the experience of Chan, they find it hard to accept religious faith. This is actually a great mistake.'
( https://www.shengyen.org/freebook/pdf/E-9.pdf by Ven. Sheng-yen, p 2)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Samsara does not necessarily entail rebirth, however. It can just be birth, jati.

Astus wrote:
The word samsara literally means moving on, from one place to another. Still, even by saying that samsara happens on a momentary basis, the many lives version is also a standard one everywhere.

Malcolm said:
Mahāyāna does not need to included this, it is ancillary, especially considering that no one actually attains buddhahood in a created buddhafield.

Astus wrote:
What makes it the bodhisattvayana if one removes the basic idea that the path is a matter of innumerable lifetimes, just as working on liberating all beings is more than a single life's achievement? Then many of the mahayana sutras (including popular ones like the Amitabha Sutra, Medicine Buddha Sutra, Ksitigarbha Sutra, Lotus Sutra) are not much more than bad fiction.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The nature of samsara is suffering. Suffering isn't made up, and everyone experiences it. Therefore, "samsara" is not a matter of faith.

Astus wrote:
Samsara as the rounds of births in the six realms is, without the divine eye.

Malcolm said:
The essence of Mahāyāna is not creating buddhafields. The essence of Mahāyāna is compassion

Astus wrote:
As great compassion with the final aim to become a buddha includes the creation of a buddha field.

Malcolm said:
Which is also the case in Buddhism as a whole.

Astus wrote:
But no teaching is proven correct just by having followers beyond a few centuries.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
But following the Dharma path to freedom from samsara doesn’t require believing any of that. It doesn’t even require that what has been preserved as the Buddha’s words were ever spoken by the Buddha.

Astus wrote:
Are you aware of any Buddhist tradition that teaches such a reduced view? Also, to say that there is such a thing as samsara is already a matter of faith and not something verified.

PadmaVonSamba said:
If they didn’t work, if the teachings said that liberation is attained by suicide or eating sand or whatever, faith in Buddhism would have died out a long time ago.

Astus wrote:
Such an argument could be made for any religion, custom, superstition, and whatnot.

PadmaVonSamba said:
When people imagine Buddha the way Christians imagine God, then it’s a religion.

Astus wrote:
In that case Mahayana is necessarily a religion, as buddhas create buddha-realms.

PadmaVonSamba said:
When people conceive of Buddha as the teacher of the true way, then it’s a philosophy.

Astus wrote:
That would still qualify it to be a religion, as in philosophy there is no single teacher giving the true way.

PadmaVonSamba said:
But if awareness were a product of physical matter, that wouldn’t mean much. Physical matter is still an object of awareness. A flute is a device for causing air molecules to vibrate against the ear drum. But music is an interpretation in the mind, of the electrical impulses in the brain caused by those vibrations. That interpretation is observed by awareness.

Astus wrote:
That doesn't answer the problem that because physical things are matter, what can interact with them has to be of the same nature, therefore awareness is matter.

PadmaVonSamba said:
How can one question the existence of awareness without the awareness that one is questioning?

Astus wrote:
The problematic point is to say that awareness is immaterial, thus it could serve as a basis for rebirth. See https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=663451#p663451 that originated this topic.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 6:47 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Without awareness, how can you even suppose that?

Astus wrote:
The contended point if it's immaterial, and that is not self-evident.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 1:17 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Well, maybe that’s been your experience, and I respect that.  But that doesn’t mean that thd fiid of ‘faith’ has been everyone’s entry into the dharma. If it is, then Buddhism is one’s religion, and if not, then Buddhism is one’s philosophy.

Astus wrote:
Can one be a Buddhist without accepting that the Buddha was a buddha? If not, then either one believes so without verifying it, or one has some sort of supernatural power to be able to see the mind of someone who has been dead for thousands of years.

PadmaVonSamba said:
But is one a Buddha because he reveals the dharma or does one reveal the dharma because he is a Buddha?

Astus wrote:
A buddha has https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Eighteen_unshared_qualities_of_a_buddha.

PadmaVonSamba said:
And what does ‘questioning awareness’ even mean? Awareness is an irrefutable fact.

Astus wrote:
If it were self-evident, its existence wouldn't be questioned by anyone. Also, if one argues by merely claiming something to be self-evident, it only means the absence of analysis, reason, and proof, thus no different from unfounded faith.

PadmaVonSamba said:
And awareness is also not material.

Astus wrote:
How can you tell? Is it not aware of material things? If it is, then it cannot be of an entirely separate nature.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Awareness is both immaterial and self-evident. It doesn’t require objective validation yet is undeniable.

Astus wrote:
If an immaterial awareness were self-evident, it couldn't be questioned. Anything immaterial is clearly denied by all sorts of materialist views.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Although this forum is Mahayana, the opening question doesn’t limit the answer to the Mahayana context.

Astus wrote:
Almost the same amount of supernatural is found in Theravada, so it doesn't really make a difference.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Even though the Buddha spoke of things we cannot observe in this lifetime, he also said not to just hff we lived something you cannot test for yourself merely because someone said it’s true.

Astus wrote:
That's a dubious and debatable interpretation. No common human can test if the Buddha was a buddha, but accepting that is a necessary starting point in being a Buddhist.

PadmaVonSamba said:
It’s in the believing of things which one cannot verify for oneself that makes one’s approach to Buddhism a religious one rather than a philosophical one.

Astus wrote:
There's not much that can be verified for oneself in Buddhism, especially at the beginning, so it is necessarily a religious approach one must have. An even more crucial difference is that while in philosophy one may argue this way and that way, in Buddhism either one's view matches with the teachings or one is wrong.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
The validity of Rebirth can be deduced using logical inference.

Astus wrote:
It starts with belief in something immaterial, and the existence of anything beyond matter cannot be proven objectively.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Buddhism doesn’t require belief in any Buddhas, merely in the teachings of Gautama Buddha which lead one away from dukkha.

Astus wrote:
If one accepts Mahayana, then the existence of other currently living buddhas is taught by Shakyamuni Buddha.

PadmaVonSamba said:
The “magical stuff” is there but not required.

Astus wrote:
It is taught by the Buddha, and it's even in his standard awakening story as recalling his past lives and seeing the rebirth of all beings.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
1. Please define “true” in this context.
2. Please give examples of ‘required’ phenomena.

Astus wrote:
1. True, as in being of consequence, having an effect.
2. Rebirth, karma, six realms, buddhas, bodhisattvas - just to mention the basics. Things like repentance, transference of merit, magical powers, dharanis, mantras might also be mentioned as common Buddhist things.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2023 at 2:57 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
cookies said:
Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?

Astus wrote:
Very much a religion, as it has a number of fundamental doctrines given in a set of canonised scriptures, and various ideas about supernatural forces and phenomena are required to be accepted as true.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2023 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Tiantai and Nichiren Buddhism and their views of the Madhyamaka and Yogachara schools of Buddhism
Content:
Vert said:
In Great Concentration and Insight Zhiyi writes the following:
“Vasubandhu and Nāgārjuna clearly perceived the truth in their hearts, but they did not teach it. Instead, they employed the provisional Mahayana teachings, which were suited to the times.”

Astus wrote:
That's not exactly what Zhiyi wrote.

The original:
天親龍樹內鑒冷然。外適時宜各權所據。( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T46n1911_p0055a21 )

Translation by Paul L. Swanson (Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight, vol 2, p 830):
'Vasubandhu and Nagarjuna internally had insight and were enlightened, and externally each responded appropriately to the needs of their times on the basis of tentative means.'

And that is the proper way to explain the Dharma, as it becomes clear in the sentences following the above one:

'However, some [Buddhist] teachers have a one-sided understanding, and some scholars are carelesslyattached [to their own limited interpretation], so that they [argue and fight uselessly,] like shooting arrows at a rock. They each maintain one extreme, and thus pervert the noble path. If you obtain this meaning, then you comprehend both the impossibility of verbal expression and the necessity of verbal expression.'


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: The body and mind of the Buddha is non-dual
Content:
Malcolm said:
there is disagreement on this point from both the Theravada school as well as Dzogchen teachings.

Astus wrote:
Not in Theravada. See: https://suttacentral.net/kv8.8/en/aung-rhysdavids. The commentary (The Debates Commentary, p 136) identifies those who believed that there was matter in the immaterial realm as the Andhakas, i.e. the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitika s.
Also: 'In the sense planes, twenty-eight material phenomena are found; in the fine-material planes, twenty-three; among the non-perciepients, seventeen; but none in the immaterial plane.' (A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p 258)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2023 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Stressed and discouraged by the suttas
Content:
anagarika said:
I don´t dispute the validity of many of the above statements, but they have to be put in a meaningful and broader context. Taken at face value and in isolation, I believe, is a recipe for disaster.

Astus wrote:
Those are all quite basic teachings very much present in Mahayana as well (see e.g. https://books.google.hu/books/about/Four_Illusions.html?id=9pyqUV89ZQcC by Candrakirti, or the teachings on https://www.lotsawahouse.org/topics/parting-from-four-attachments/ ). The issue rather seems to be with wishing for the happy results but seeing oneself inadequate to achieve it. That might be a case of 'renunciate sadness' ( https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujato ) that turned into restlessness (uddhacca), one of the basic hindrances that can come from trying too hard ( https://suttacentral.net/an3.102/en/sujato ).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2023 at 7:49 PM
Title: Re: Does East Asian Buddhism have a concept of Arahant/Arhat
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
The Eighteen Arhats seem to be a closed group (no more to be added) and more like minor deities than advanced disciples. The Theravadins seem to see becoming an Arhat as an achievement open to anyone, any time - theoretically at least.

Astus wrote:
The system of the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_realms show well that arhats are above all samsaric beings. It is recognised as a significant attainment, but there's more to go.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2023 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Does East Asian Buddhism have a concept of Arahant/Arhat
Content:
dpcalder said:
I specifically have in mind Chan and Zen Buddhism. Do they recognize the existence of humans who have totally and irreversibly eradicated all karmic reactivity?

Astus wrote:
Arhats are actually quite popular in East Asian Buddhism. See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji_Gong, who is believed to be one of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteen_Arhats.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2023 at 3:00 PM
Title: Re: Which best describes Buddhism?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Buddhism is polytheist, since there are many gods and heavens, like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Heavenly_Kings, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C4%81yastri%E1%B9%83%C5%9Ba, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tushita, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C4%81ma, etc.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 28th, 2023 at 6:30 PM
Title: Re: Cessation of sensory experiences as the state of Prajnaparamita
Content:
Astus wrote:
“Master Gotama, it’s when the eye sees no sight and the ear hears no sound. That’s how Pārāsariya teaches his disciples the development of the faculties.”
“In that case, Uttara, a blind person and a deaf person will have developed faculties according to what Pārāsariya says. For a blind person sees no sight with the eye and a deaf person hears no sound with the ear.”
( https://suttacentral.net/mn152/en/sujato )

“Suppose there was a black ox and a white ox yoked by a single harness or yoke. Would it be right to say that the black ox is the yoke of the white ox, or the white ox is the yoke of the black ox?”
“No, reverend. The black ox is not the yoke of the white ox, nor is the white ox the yoke of the black ox. The yoke there is the single harness or yoke that they’re yoked by.”
“In the same way, the eye is not the fetter of sights, nor are sights the fetter of the eye. The fetter there is the desire and greed that arises from the pair of them. The ear … nose … tongue … body … mind is not the fetter of thoughts, nor are thoughts the fetter of the mind. The fetter there is the desire and greed that arises from the pair of them.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn35.232/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2023 at 3:31 PM
Title: Re: Identifying the object of negation in meditation
Content:
Astus wrote:
“What is this grasping at self?” enquired Drom.
“This is something that wants all positive qualities for oneself alone and wants others alone to take on all misfortunes.”
“Then please explain this in such a manner so you can say ‘This is selfgrasping,’” asked Drom.
Atiśa replied: “Where would one find something of which it could be said that ‘This is the reified self-grasping?”’
“In that case, please explain to me how it is that [this self-grasping] wants everything and transfers [all] blames onto others.”
Atiśa replied, “Upāsaka, why even ask me? This is pervasive in sentient beings. You know this, so what need is there to ask? Even so, I have also seen attachment and aversion labeled as self-grasping.”
“Atiśa, there are people who possess such forms of grasping?”
“Where do they exist?” responded Atiśa.
“They are [within] our own mental continuum,” replied [Drom].
“Upāsaka, what is one’s own mental continuum?”
“It is that which wants everything and grasps [at it all] replied Drom.
Atiśa: “I, too, would say the same.”
(The Jewel Garland of Dialogues, ch 6, in The Book of Kadam, p 121-122)

Consider, for example, that someone accuses you of having committed an offense which you did not do. When you are accused of this, you say, “I didn’t do that.” With this accusation, because thinking “I” rises from deep in the center of your heart, this clarifies how we perceive the “I” which is innate self-grasping.
( http://theguildny.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Quick-Path-English-Mnyur-Lam-by-Panchen-Blobzang-Yeshes-Quick-Path-Tr.-Lozang-Jamspal-TCTG.pdf, p 141-142)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2023 at 5:25 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
As the Buddha purportedly brings up in the Surangama Sutra, if you cover your eyes so that you can’t see anything, how do you know that you can’t see anything? You know because the ‘eye consciousness’ doesn’t cease simply because there is no object to see.

Astus wrote:
That's only one half of the reasoning presented in the sutra, but if one takes only that much from it, that would not "differ from the ‘truth of the unmanifested nature’ as taught by the Brahmin Kapila, or from the ‘true self’ as taught by the ascetics who smear ashes on themselves, or by others who are not on the right path" (2.9, p 72). So the conclusion drawn is that "Statements that account for its existence cannot be negated, yet one cannot say that they cannot be negated. Such statements cannot be affirmed, yet one cannot say that they cannot be affirmed. What is entirely beyond all defining attributes — that is the entirety of Dharma." (p 74)

From Ven. Sheng-yen's commentary:

'You must try to not cling to either extreme and to let go of the center, as well – this is Madhyamika, the middle way. Could this be the way to find true self?
If you continue to hold on to a concept such as a true self, or an idea of something that pervades through all space and time, then you are holding on to an attachment. Buddhadharma does not speak of true self; it speaks only of causes and conditions.
You might ask if causes and conditions are the true Dharma, the true way. No, these are only concepts, expedient ways of explaining things.'
( https://chancenter.org/download/free-books/Until-We-Reach-Buddhahood-Vol-I-Book.pdf, p 123)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2023 at 4:45 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm said:
If there is no object for it, does a consciousness cease and become nonexistent? If this is the case, how does someone arise from a samadhi of cessation?

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is when it is conscious of something. Not being conscious of something is simply no consciousness. So to say that consciousness somehow can cease to be conscious of something and then stop existing is not an option, like saying that first the light of a candle ceases to be bright and then ceases to be light.
As for arising from a samadhi of cessation and other similar examples used by some to propose a theory of an unbroken stream of consciousness, even those theories maintain momentariness and the need for an object. So no matter what, consciousness stays no longer than a moment and never without something to be conscious of.

Malcolm said:
More to the point, if consciousness must always have an object, how can one practice prajñāpāramitā?

Astus wrote:
By not perpetuating the attachment to consciousness or any other phenomenon.

Malcolm said:
Candra points out in his MAV autocommentary, "Yogis do not perceive all aspects, when those are not perceived, that which is appropriated by the eye, and so on, and so on does not occur. In this way, yogis do not perceive an intrinsic nature in any entities, and therefore, they are liberated from samsara."

Astus wrote:
That's about ending the misconceptions of self and belonging to a self, as in MMK 18.4 that the autocommentary quotes.

Malcolm said:
If consciousness must always have an object, such a nonperception would be impossible, and therefore, liberation also would be impossible, and one must accept the consequence that liberation involves consciousness becoming a nonexistent, and therefore, one's view is necessarily annihilationist, like that of sautrantikas.

Astus wrote:
It can be said that recognising that the door key is not in one's pocket is an instance of nonperception, but that's actually a deduction, a conceptual inference. In the case of inherent existence, once its mistaken assumption is removed, there is simply no generation of the idea of a self. So there is no need for a consciousness without object.

"‘But there couldn’t be any seeing of such a nature, could there? So how do they then see?’ Though that is true, it is said that, ‘It’s by not seeing it that they see.’"
( https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=record&vid=1113&mid=1927236 )

'It is said in the very profound sūtras that the state of nonseeing is seeing [ultimate reality]. In that (ultimate reality), there is neither seeing nor seer, but peace without beginning or end.'
(Entry to the Two Realities, v 7, in Jewels of the Middle Way, p 119)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2023 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm said:
Minds also are conscious, but that consciousness is not fabricated by someone or something. Minds cannot be reduced in such a way as to exclude consciousness, consciousness is an irreducible fact of minds. Unlike inanimate phenomena, minds possesses two irreducible qualities, consciousness and emptiness.

Astus wrote:
Minds are defined by being cognizant (vijñānaṁ prativijñaptiḥ - Kośa 1.16; MPPS XXX.4.1.5), by knowing an object (ālambanaṃbijñaptiḥ - Pañcaskandhaprakaraṇa 112; cf. Kośa 1.34), and they always arise not simply based on conditions but also with concomitants (caitta - Kośa 2.23-24). Hence the issue with saying that somehow the quality of cognizance/consciousness is independent of conditions seems contrary to what's generally taught about the mind. As Śāntideva points out (Bodhicaryāvatāra 9.60), consciousness without an object makes no sense. Also, the MPPS, when discussing the emptiness of all dharmas ( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc226211.html ), covers also the defining characteristic of mind as cognizant.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2023 at 3:52 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm said:
Things other than minds have no possibility of liberation.

Astus wrote:
Do you imply that it's a practical teaching without much consideration of a bigger (theoretical) picture? Or https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=657768#p657768 to your previous response was missed?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2023 at 3:44 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
it is also innately endowed with ll the qualities of Buddhahood/Buddha-nature

Astus wrote:
That's standard buddha-nature doctrine to encourage everyone to buddhahood, etc.

Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
The ultimate bodhicitta or buddha-nature can be uncompounded, but still contain all the infinite marvelous qualities of all the Tathagatas.

Astus wrote:
Uncompounded means it's without arising and ceasing, so it's incapable to perform any function (unlike buddha-nature). Aryadeva says:

'All are produced for their effect,
Thus none are permanent.
There are no Tathagatas other than
Subduers [who cognize] things as they are.
There is not anywhere anything
That ever exists without depending.
Thus never is there anywhere
Anything that is permanent.
There is no functional thing without a cause,
Nor anything permanent which has a cause.
Thus the one who knows suchness said what has
Come about causelessly does not exist.
If the unproduced is permanent
Because impermanent [things] are seen to be products,
Seeing that the produced exists
Would make the permanent non-existent.'
(Four Hundred Stanzas on the Middle Way, 9.201-204)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2023 at 5:25 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm said:
It’s only by knowing the nature of the mind liberation is attained. If one claims the nature of mind us only emptiness, this is insufficient. But we are going off topic.

Astus wrote:
If the unique qualities of an instance of consciousness is held to be uncompounded, the same can be applied to all dharmas. How is that any different from denying the emptiness of dharmas? Or even affirming a sort of ultimate awareness/self.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2023 at 3:55 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm said:
Mind is not only empty. But that is a common sutra attitude.

Astus wrote:
All things have their unique attributes, and categories of things have their shared qualities that make them different from other categories. So why say that only the category of mind is special?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2023 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Do you mean “element” earth or the planet Earth?

Astus wrote:
The element.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2023 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm said:
Yes, it is part of the nature of the mind, in other words, wherever there is mind, there is clarity, just as there is emptiness. Both clarity and emptiness are uncompounded in the sense that they are invariable characteristics of any given mind. You cannot remove the clarity of the mind anymore than you can remove its emptiness.

Astus wrote:
Why single out mind to be anything other than empty? Earth has the nature of solidity, etc. up to all the many dharmas.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: Korean style Medicine Buddha Mantra chanting
Content:
KeithA said:
Sino-Korean version of the Diamond Sutra

Astus wrote:
Like http://www.buljahome.com/amsong_dia/song_file.htm? Or http://www.buljahome.com/amsong_dia/1_nfile.htm?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 23rd, 2023 at 6:13 AM
Title: Re: Drikung mahamudra books
Content:
ZopaChotso said:
Can anyone recommend a good book on Mahamudra from the Drikung tradition?

Astus wrote:
https://www.drikung.org/storage/2022/02/Mahamudra_Teachings_by_Garchen_Rinpoche.pdf
https://pktc.org/books/gampopas-mahamudra/
https://www.shambhala.com/garland-of-mahamudra-practices.html
https://www.namsebangdzo.com/Introduction-to-Mahamudra-p/5748.htm

ZopaChotso said:
Has anyone read the Chetsang's book "The Practice of Mahamudra", if so, is it a good book?

Astus wrote:
Yes.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 21st, 2023 at 3:42 PM
Title: Re: The Four Stages of Awakening in Vajrayana Buddhism
Content:
dpcalder said:
Does Vajrayana Buddhism have an equivalent concept?

Astus wrote:
The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidharmako%C5%9Ba-bh%C4%81sya is the primary source in Tibetan Buddhism of all kinds of topics related to the hearer's vehicle, and it covers the four attainments in chapter 6. It is somewhat different from the Theravada interpretation.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 17th, 2023 at 6:06 PM
Title: Buddhist and non-Buddhist Ethics in MPPS
Content:
Astus wrote:
Furthermore, there are sūtras of the heretics that allow killing (prāṇātipāta), theft (adattādana), sexual misconduct (kāmamithyācāra), lying (mṛṣāvāda) and the use of wine. 

They say: 
1) In sacrifices to the gods (devayajña), killing is not wrong because it is the practice of religion; if one is in difficulties, it is not wrong to kill an ordinary person to save one’s life, for in difficulties, it is to follow the right path. 
2) Except for gold, it is permitted to steal in order to save one’s life. Later, the heretics will suppress this residue of fault. 
3) Except for the consort of one’s teacher (guru), the wife of the king, the wife or daughter of a spiritual friend (kalyāṇamitra), it is permitted to violate other women and to have sex with them. 
4) It is permitted to lie in the interest of one’s teacher, one’s parents, one’s own life, one’s cattle, or in the rôle of a middleman. 
5) When it is cold, it is permitted to drink liquor made from crystallized honey and, in the sacrifices to the gods, it is permitted to take one or two drops of wine. 

In the Buddha’s Dharma, this is not permitted. 
1) Out of loving-kindness (maitrīcitta) and equanimity (samacitta) towards all beings, it is forbidden to take the life of even an ant, the more so a man. 
2) It is forbidden to take a needle (sūci) and thread (tantu), even more so, a valuable object. 
3) It is forbidden to touch a courtesan (veśya), the more so another man’s wife (parakalatra). 
4) It is forbidden to lie as a jest, the more so to make a (real) lie. 
5) It is forbidden to drink any wine at any time, the more so when it is cold and during sacrifices to the gods. 

The distance between the heretics and the Buddha’s Dharma is like the distance between heaven and earth. The law of the heretics is a generating source for passions (kleśamautthāpaka); the Buddha’s Dharma is the place of destruction of all the passions: this is the great difference.

( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225457.html; Ven. Dharmamitra's translation http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/N6P_excerpts/N6P_X-Bk4_X-15.pdf on p 10-11; https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T25n1509_p0192a08 )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 15th, 2023 at 8:15 PM
Title: Re: Samyaksamadhi vs Samyaksambodhi
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
In the Eightfold Noble Path, why did the Buddha teach the eighth limb as right samadhi (samyaksamadhi), and not right enlightenment (samyaksambodhi)?  Isn't enlightenment the goal and summit of the path?  What then is the relationship between samyaksamadhi, or right meditation, and samyaksambodhi?  Is samyaksamadhi a kind of synonym of samyaksambodhi?

Astus wrote:
The N8P has its parts working together, not in sequential order. For the result, there are two more: right knowledge and right liberation. Those are possessed by arhats. See: MN 117.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 13th, 2023 at 2:10 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
It’s like saying “the true nature of fire is always that is will be hot. This fact doesn’t change. That which does not change is permanent”.

Astus wrote:
In brief that's what svabhava and svalaksana mean. Emptiness can be called nihsvabhava.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 2:39 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
And if the mind is dependently arisen, how can it be that which is realized upon awakening?

Astus wrote:
It might be good to recall that mind means the six types of experience: sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought. It's not some abstract thing but immediately observable.

It is its dependent nature that is realised. The mind is believed to be one's self and thus it's the basis of grasping. When seen as merely the product of conditions without essence, then there's nothing left to cling to.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 10th, 2023 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
Astus wrote:
'Hearing the word “buddha-nature,” many students have misunderstood it to be like the “self” described by the non-Buddhist Senika. This is because they do not meet people, they do not meet themselves, and they do not meet with a teacher. They vacantly consider mind, will, or consciousness — which is the movement of wind and fire — to be the buddha-nature’s enlightened knowing and enlightened understanding.'
(Bussho, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 5)

'Silly man, who on earth have you ever known me to teach in that way? Haven’t I said in many ways that consciousness is dependently originated, since consciousness does not arise without a cause?'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato )

'But an unlearned ordinary person would be better off taking this body made up of the four primary elements to be their self, rather than the mind. Why is that? This body made up of the four primary elements is seen to last for a year, or for two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, or a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called ‘mind’ or ‘sentience’ or ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another all day and all night. It’s like a monkey moving through the forest. It grabs hold of one branch, lets it go, and grabs another; then it lets that go and grabs yet another.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.61/en/sujato )

'Great king, no phenomenon whatsoever transmigrates from this world to another world, yet there are the manifestations of death and birth.
Great king, the cessation of the final consciousness is known as death. The arising of the first consciousness is known as birth. Great king, the moment the final consciousness ceases, it does not go anywhere. The moment the first consciousness pertaining to birth arises, it also does not come from anywhere. Why is that? It is because they40 are devoid of essential nature.'
( https://read.84000.co/translation/toh226.html#UT22084-063-007-73 )

'The view expressed now is absolutely not the Buddha’s Dharma; it is the view of the non-Buddhist Senika. According to that non-Buddhist view, there is one spiritual intelligence existing within our body. When this intelligence meets conditions, it can discriminate between pleasant and unpleasant and discriminate between right and wrong, and it can know pain and irritation and know suffering and pleasure—all [these] are abilities of the spiritual intelligence. When this body dies, however, the spirit casts off the skin and is reborn on the other side; so even though it seems to die here it lives on there. Therefore we call it immortal and eternal. The view of that non-Buddhist is like this. But if we learn this view as the Buddha’s Dharma, we are even more foolish than the person who grasps a tile or a pebble thinking it to be a golden treasure; the delusion would be too shameful for comparison.'
(Bendowa, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 1, p 14)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 5:34 PM
Title: Re: In Madhyamaka is everything empty, without exception? Or is there something that exists?
Content:
Dgj said:
So, the Shentong position is in clear, undeniable contradiction of Nagarjuna, it sounds like, no?

Astus wrote:
Seems so, yes.

'The Jonangpas assert that the nature of all phenomena, the ultimate truth, is permanent and stable, and is not empty of its own entity. Their position is well refuted here, using the teaching that the empty nature of all phenomena is empty of its own nature.'
(The Karmapa’s Middle Way: Feast for the Fortunate, p 471-472)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
clyde said:
Yes, purify and attain, investigate and gain, but . . .

Astus wrote:
Why "but..."? It's rather "then..." That is, once one has purified the mind and attained awakening, then there is no cultivation and nothing to gain. In other words, although both oneself and all things are already empty and without anything to grasp, that has to become an actual realisation in order to be free from self-centredness and clinging.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I didn’t say anything about what is past it.

Astus wrote:
If there is nothing beyond the conceptual mind, why should it see past itself?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
clyde said:
Dear Astus, My response is found in your signature.

Astus wrote:
That begins with investigating the nature of mind, and then gaining genuine insight. How do you connect it to the DKM?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 24th, 2023 at 3:15 PM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
clyde said:
No, I didn’t say that the teachings are pointless; in fact, the teaching of DKM (or Buddha-nature, and Zen teachings in general) are well regarded as pointers.

Astus wrote:
If so, then learning and comprehending are necessary, so is the application of the teachings.

clyde said:
Yes, DKM (or Buddha-nature) is unattainable - because we already are it.

Astus wrote:
There is a distinction between the hidden and the revealed buddha-nature, so there is a path to purify the mind and attain awakening.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 24th, 2023 at 3:12 PM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
The conceptual mind can’t see past itself.

Astus wrote:
That there is anything past it, sounds like a concept.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 24th, 2023 at 3:04 PM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
clyde said:
Learning the term and comprehending the meaning of the term are not necessary and are not DKM. And one doesn’t apply DKM; it’s not a technique or tool to be applied, nor a skill to be mastered.

Astus wrote:
So the teachings on DKM are pointless, and there is no way to attain it either. Why then even mention it?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 4:42 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
We have, for example, a text attributed to Vimalamitra on a nongradual approach, the The Meaning of the Sudden Entrants Nonconceptual Cultivation [cig car 'jug pa rnam par mi rtog pa'i bsgom don ], is preserved in the Tenjur. Does this really represent an Indian sutra-based simultaneous entry? Hard to say.

Astus wrote:
On that text: https://www.academia.edu/23331168/The_Sudden_and_Gradual_S%C5%ABtric_and_Tantric_Approaches_in_the_Rim_gyis_jug_pa_and_Cig_car_jug_pa by Joel Gruber.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 3:13 PM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
KeithA said:
Learn and master what, exactly?

Astus wrote:
First the words, then the meaning, and then its application/usage.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 3:03 PM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
clyde said:
One doesn’t learn “Don’t Know Mind”, one unlearns so that DKM may appear.

Astus wrote:
One first has to learn the term DKM, hear it in the proper context and from a source one trusts, otherwise it's quickly forgotten. Then one has to invest more time and effort to comprehend the meaning of the term, plus gain further knowledge about what to do in order to apply it.

clyde said:
And one certainly doesn’t master DKM, DKM has no master.

Astus wrote:
Is simply hearing about DKM, knowing the expression, and perhaps understanding it in the right way enough, or should one make use of it in one's life? If one should, then there is practice and there is proficiency, i.e. mastering it.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Don’t Know Mind
Content:
KeithA said:
If one wants to know what Kwan Um style teaching style is like, this it.

Astus wrote:
The "don't know mind" is something to learn and master in order to know the truth. Thus one is required/invited to know instead of not knowing. Very tricky.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, January 22nd, 2023 at 4:28 PM
Title: Re: The Humanities
Content:
Astus wrote:
Might be different in the US, but to give a well rounded education was/is the purpose of secondary/high school ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_%28school%29 ).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, January 22nd, 2023 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: In Madhyamaka is everything empty, without exception? Or is there something that exists?
Content:
Dgj said:
Is it that there is no such thing as any thing, whatsoever, because all is empty, no exceptions? Or is the Madhyamaka teaching that all things are empty, which points to some transcendent reality?

Astus wrote:
'It is not to be asserted that the Buddha exists beyond cessation, nor “does not exist” nor “both exists and does not exist,” nor “neither exists nor does not exist”—none of these is to be asserted.
Indeed it is not to be asserted that “The Buddha exists while remaining [in this world],” nor “does not exist” nor “both exists and does not exist,” nor “neither exists nor does not exist”—none of these is to be asserted.
There is no distinction whatsoever between saṃsāra and nirvāṇa. There is no distinction whatsoever between nirvāṇa and saṃsāra.'
(Madhyamakasastra, 25.17-19, from Nagarjuna’s Middle Way)

'There is not anywhere anything 
That ever exists without depending. 
Thus never is there anywhere 
Anything that is permanent. 
There is no functional thing without a cause,
Nor anything permanent which has a cause. 
Thus the one who knows suchness said what has
Come about causelessly does not exist. 
If the unproduced is permanent 
Because impermanent [things] are seen to be products,
Seeing that the produced exists 
Would make the permanent non-existent.'
(Catuhsataka, v 202-204, from Aryadeva's Four Hundred Stanzas on the Middle Way)

'“All phenomena” refers to the eighteen constituents, the six types of contact,
The six feelings that arise from contact,
Physical phenomena, nonphysical phenomena,
And conditioned and unconditioned phenomena.
All of these phenomena are void of their own entity.
This emptiness is the emptiness of all phenomena.'
(Madhyamakavatara 6.200-201ab, from The Karmapa’s Middle Way: Feast for the Fortunate)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 7:18 PM
Title: Re: The Origin of Living Beings & the World in Shurangama sutra chapter VI
Content:
Astus wrote:
「佛言：「阿難！當知妙性圓明離諸名相，本來無有世界眾生，因妄有生因生有滅」
(T19n945p138b7-8)

The Buddha said, “You should know, Ānanda, that the wondrous enlightened nature is endowed with perfect understanding. It is apart from all names and attributes, and in it, at the fundamental level, there are no worlds and no beings. It is because of delusion that there is coming into being, and because there is coming into being, there is ceasing to be.”
(The Śūraṅgama Sūtra - A New Translation, p 314)

「阿難！云何名為眾生顛倒？阿難！由性明心，性明圓故；因明發性，性妄見生。從畢竟無成究竟有，此有所有非因所因，住所住相了無根本，本此無住，建立世界及諸眾生」
(b12-16)

“What is the distorted phenomenon that we call beings, Ānanda? The enlightened nature of the true mind that understands is such that its understanding is perfect and complete. But, Ānanda, from this understanding, another understanding may be created as another entity, and from that other entity, a deluded awareness will come into being. Thus from within the original state which has no attributes whatever, that which has definite attributes comes into being.
“Neither what comes into being nor what it comes into being from are based on anything, nor are they a basis for anything. Beings and the worlds they dwell in have no foundation, and yet, despite their having no foundation, beings and the worlds come into being.
(p 314-315)

「迷本圓明是生虛妄，妄性無體非有所依。將欲復真，欲真已非真真如性，非真求復宛成非相，非生非住非心非法，展轉發生生力發明，熏以成業同業相感，因有感業相滅相生，由是故有眾生顛倒。」
(b16-20)

“Confusion about the original perfect understanding results in delusion, but this delusion has no essential nature of its own; it is based on nothing. One may wish to return to what is real, but to wish for the real is already a falsification. The true nature of the suchness of reality is not a reality that one can seek to return to. If one were to try to return to it, one would merely experience something that does not have the attributes of reality.
“Through their mutual interaction, there comes into being what does not really come into being, as well as what does not really abide, what is not really the mind, and what are not really phenomena. From the force of their coming into being, an understanding is created, and its influence leads to activity subject to karma. Similar karma mutually attracts, and because of the karma of this mutual attraction, there is a coming into being and then a ceasing to be. This is the reason for the distorted phenomenon of beings.”
(p 315-316)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 3:39 PM
Title: Re: Deep-rooted Hindu wants to practice Buddha Dharma esp. Dzogchen
Content:
Astus wrote:
This talk ( https://suttacentral.net/dn25/en/sujato ) by the Buddha is also worth mentioning here:

“Nigrodha, you might think, ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants pupils.’ But you should not see it like this. Let your teacher remain your teacher.

You might think, ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants us to give up our recitation.’ But you should not see it like this. Let your recitation remain as it is.

You might think, ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants us to give up our livelihood.’ But you should not see it like this. Let your livelihood remain as it is.

You might think, ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants us to start doing things that are unskillful and considered unskillful in our tradition.’ But you should not see it like this. Let those things that are unskillful and considered unskillful in your tradition remain as they are.

You might think, ‘The ascetic Gotama speaks like this because he wants us to stop doing things that are skillful and considered skillful in our tradition.’ But you should not see it like this. Let those things that are skillful and considered skillful in your tradition remain as they are.

I do not speak for any of these reasons. Nigrodha, there are things that are unskillful, corrupting, leading to future lives, hurtful, resulting in suffering and future rebirth, old age, and death. I teach Dhamma so that those things may be given up. When you practice accordingly, corrupting qualities will be given up in you and cleansing qualities will grow. You’ll enter and remain in the fullness and abundance of wisdom, having realized it with your own insight in this very life.”


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 6:37 AM
Title: Re: Deep-rooted Hindu wants to practice Buddha Dharma esp. Dzogchen
Content:
mahabuddha said:
Choose one and stick with it.

Astus wrote:
Not necessarily. Some examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennedy_%28Jesuit%29 (born June 20, 1933) is an American Jesuit priest, professor of theology, psychoanalyst and Zen rōshi in the White Plum lineage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ama_Samy (Arul Maria Arokiasamy), S.J., born in 1936, is an Indian Zen master and Jesuit priest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ishmael_Ford (Zeno Myoun, Roshi) is an American Zen Buddhist priest and a retired Unitarian Universalist minister.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Publication Review Websites
Content:
Svalaksana said:
I'm looking for a website that concentrates and reviews Buddhist publications, whether books or academic papers, course thesis and such other kinds of literary output.

Astus wrote:
https://networks.h-net.org/h-buddhism is a site like that.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 13th, 2023 at 6:56 PM
Title: Re: Explain Pure Lands and the differing views on them?
Content:
Astus wrote:
The Fourfold Summary of Chan and Pure Land (禪淨四料簡) attributed to Yongming Yanshou is often quoted:

'With Ch'an but no Pure Land, nine out of ten people will go astray.
When death comes suddenly, they must accept it in an instant.
With Pure Land but no Ch'an, ten thousand out of ten thousand people will achieve birth [in the Pure Land].
If one can see Amitabha face to face, why worry about not attaining enlightenment?
With both Ch'an and Pure Land, it is like a tiger who has grown horns.
One will be a teacher for mankind in this life, and a Buddhist patriarch in the next.
With neither Ch'an nor Pure Land, it is like falling on an iron bed with bronze posters [i.e., one of the hells].
For endless kalpas one will find nothing to rely on.'
(translation from Yung-ming's Syncretism of Pure Land and Ch'an by Heng-ching Shih, in JIABS, vol 10, no 1, p 118)

And a modern explanation:

'The Chan School (which became Zen in Japan) focuses on attaining enlightenment in this lifetime. The Pure Land School, on the other hand, teaches cultivators how to be reborn to Amitabha’s Western Bliss Pure Land, where they will be able to attain enlightenment in their very next lifetime. In the parallel practice of Chan and Pure Land, we aspire to become enlightened in this life; however, we are also aware that this is an incredibly difficult goal to attain, and thus we use the Pure Land Dharma as a backup plan. In fact, the Pure Land Dharma is like an insurance policy that will enable us to keep making progress in our next lifetime, should we fail to reach enlightenment before we die.'
( https://www.chanpureland.org/practices.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 3:50 PM
Title: Re: nirvana mathematically not possible
Content:
Astus wrote:
'Just as the end of a seed is seen
Though it has no beginning,
When the causes are incomplete
Birth, too, will not occur.'
(Aryadeva's Four Hundred Stanzas on the Middle Way, 8.200)

'Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.'
( https://suttacentral.net/an4.77/en/thanissaro )

'Householder, there are many different views that arise in the world. For example: the cosmos is eternal, or not eternal, or finite, or infinite; the soul and the body are the same thing, or they are different things; after death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist. And also the sixty-two misconceptions spoken of in the Prime Net Discourse.
These views come to be when identity view exists. When identity view does not exist they do not come to be.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn41.3/en/sujato )

'it’s not the Realized One’s concern whether the whole world is saved by this, or half, or a third. But the Realized One knows that whoever is saved from the world—whether in the past, the future, or the present—all have given up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. They have firmly established their mind in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. And they have truly developed the seven awakening factors. That’s how they’re saved from the world, in the past, future, or present.'
( https://suttacentral.net/an10.95/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 5:57 PM
Title: Re: Early Chan Primary Sources
Content:
Anders said:
The Xin Xin Ming?

Astus wrote:
'According to Japanese scholars Nishitani Keiji and Yanagida Seizan, the Hsin-hsin Ming was composed in the eighth century, two centuries after Seng-ts'an (see Nishitani Keiji and Yanagida Seizan, eds., Zenke Goroku4 vol.2; Tõkyõ: Chikuma Shobõ, 1974, pp. 105-112). Yanagida Seizan also suspects that the Hsin-hsin Ming is the work of the fourth patriarch Tao-hsin (580-651). Chinese scholar Yin-shun shares this opinion in his Chung-kuo Ch'an-tsung Shih5, pp. 52-60.'
(Problem of Authorship. in https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/fm/fm.htm )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 4:08 PM
Title: Re: Early Chan Primary Sources
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
What am I missing?

Astus wrote:
'A Treatise on the Ceasing of Notions' and 'Treatise on the Transcendence of Cognition' are the same Jueguanlun (絕觀論). Another famous one by Niutou is the Xinming (心銘).

The 'Wake-up Sermon' (Wuxing lun 悟性論) and the 'Treatise on No-Mind' (Wuxinlun 無心論) are quite different texts.

Everything by Heze Shenhui are also important.

For background the following texts should be also included besides the Vajrasamadhi sutra: Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana, Śūraṅgama Sūtra, Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment.

The Dunwu yaomen (頓悟要門) attributed to Dazhu Huihai is likely to be a treatise preceding the Hongzhou school (see: The Hongzhou Shool of Chan Buddhism by Jinhua Jia, p 60-62).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 21st, 2022 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
akuppa said:
If it can be lost, its not full awakening and if it takes place over time, it's gradual and not sudden. So I'm rather confused if this is what is taught as sudden awakening in Chan.

Astus wrote:
There are different versions of sudden awakening, as https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=647356#p647356.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 21st, 2022 at 6:27 AM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
akuppa said:
But if you consider the person from our point of view, there is a development as awakening is actualized over time, with more and more moments of bodhi and fewer of delusion.

Astus wrote:
That would be the perspective of an imagined being persisting over time. Such a point of view then would raise some issues, like: What factors change with more frequent moments of awakening? If awakening can be gained and lost, what other conditions have to be met to reach final awakening?
Or there really aren't any new issues, since it would be mostly like the standard gradual path. And that is the understanding of those who subscribe to the view of 'sudden awakening, gradual cultivation'.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 21st, 2022 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
akuppa said:
So sudden awakening doesn't rule out a certain kind of development over time.

Astus wrote:
Where do you see any development?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
akuppa said:
If its not about speed, do you mean it could take place over time? Could it be lost and then gained again? In my reading some medieval Japanese thought so.

Astus wrote:
'A single moment’s stupidity and prajñā is eradicated, a single moment’s wisdom and prajñā is generated. ... With a preceding moment of deluded thought, one was an ordinary person, but with a succeeding moment of enlightened thought, one is a buddha. To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi.'
(Platform Sutra, BDK ed, ch 2, p 30)

'Within continuing moments of thought one should not think of the previous [mental] realm. If one thinks of the previous thought, the present
thought, and the later thought, one’s thoughts will be continuous without cease. This is called ‘fettered.’ If one’s thoughts do not abide in the dharmas, this is to be ‘unfettered.’ Thus it is that nonabiding is taken as the fundamental.'
(ch 4, p 43)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 4:17 PM
Title: Re: Direct perception of interdependent origination
Content:
sun-and-moon said:
What are traditional mahayana meditation instructions for a practitioner to cultivate direct perception of interdependent origination of momentarily arising dharmas in the mind?

Astus wrote:
A short form of contemplation can be found in part four of https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/the-awakening-of-faith/ (p 78-79). https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/the-sutra-on-the-concentration-of-sitting-meditation/ (p 16-18, 70-81) has quite an extensive treatment of contemplating dependent origination as the antidote to ignorance. It is also a topic discussed under prajnaparamita in https://read.84000.co/translation/toh70.html#UT22084-043-007-150. Observing dependent origination is an integral part of contemplation in Zhiyi's smaller manual ( http://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/ebm_book_page.htm, ch 6), just as it is of Dushun's instructions (Cessation and Contemplation in the Five Teachings of the Hua-yen, in Entry into the Inconceivable).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Which Zen school is closest to Theravada?
Content:
anagarika said:
This sounds quite interesting and maybe something in the direction I´m looking for - could you please point me to some further resources?

Astus wrote:
The Platform Sutra ( https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/the-platform-sutra-of-the-sixth-patriarch/ ) is a key Zen text. It discusses nonthought in chapter 2 (p 33-34) and chapter 4 (p 43-44).

anagarika said:
By non-conceptual I meant training the mind to see whatever there is not through the lens of any concepts.

Astus wrote:
Then the meaning of "concept" should be clarified, because for instance saṃjñā/saññā is very much a basic mental function.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Which Zen school is closest to Theravada?
Content:
anagarika said:
Is mozhao an equivalent to shikantaza?

Astus wrote:
Generally, yes.

anagarika said:
there could be at least some overlap between the practice of shikantaza and certain practices from the Thai forest tradition which seem somewhat similar (such as the "choiceless awareness", "centering oneself in the citta", "focused non-meditation" - I put these in quotation marks as they are non-canonical).

Astus wrote:
The teachers of the Thai Forest tradition (that I know of) teach within the standard framework of the threefold training, where one needs a solid foundation in moral discipline to develop samadhi, and a sufficient level of samadhi to cultivate wisdom. The terms you mention are pointers to what correct mindfulness means.
Strictly speaking, Zen is not about cultivating mindfulness (nian 念), and if anything, it's cultivating mindlessness (wunian 無念 - a key Zen term, often translated as no(n)-thought, and is an equivalent of the term hishiryō 非思量).

anagarika said:
Are you suggesting that shikantaza cannot be divorced from the Mahayana philosophy?

Astus wrote:
It is an idea within Mahayana philosophy. So the question is then: how do you define shikantaza?

anagarika said:
I would find that slightly disappointing as I assumed this practice to be completely non-conceptual, which I considered its biggest strength

Astus wrote:
If by non-conceptual you mean thoughtless, absent-minded, then it's not Zen at all, just blank stupidity. The central part of "mindlessness", i.e. non-thought is the direct realisation of emptiness, so wisdom is a key ingredient, that sees things as they really are. It is not about any special state, rather recognising that all states are insubstantial and incomprehensible.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Which Zen school is closest to Theravada?
Content:
Virgo said:
Perhaps after the divisions of the 18 schools happened some of those, from the very beginning of their formations, did believe in the emptiness of all phenomena, but probably not until after we see the bodhisattva movement begin to happen (and I am no expert on this).

Astus wrote:
First people had to come up with the specific idea of the dharma as an ultimate unit, then define it as self-existent in order to allow others to say that it's not, thus inventing the concept of emptiness of dharmas. That whole process is found in post-abhidharma literature.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Which Zen school is closest to Theravada?
Content:
anagarika said:
which Zen school(s) would be closest to the original teachings of the historical Buddha (as preserved in the Pali canon).

Astus wrote:
The view within Zen is that it transmits the original mind of Shakyamuni Buddha, not any scriptural material, although supposedly there can be no contradiction between his words and his mind.

The doctrine of buddha-nature is quite central in Zen, just like several other Mahayana teachings, therefore it could not be derived from the early scriptures.

anagarika said:
There is a very prominent school within Theravada known as "Thai forest tradition" which seems to be a very good example of how the early Buddhist teachings and doctrine can be mixed with elements of Zen practice and the general mindset.

Astus wrote:
There are not that many elements of Zen practice to mix with. Practically there are only two: kanhua (observing the phrase) and mozhao (silent illumination). The latter seems more amenable to be copied, but not so without its proper understanding that is founded upon Mahayana teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 11th, 2022 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Aemilius said:
All cases that seem like a "sudden awakening", have been preceded by life, by the informal training that is called "life", for many years and for many lifetimes.

Astus wrote:
The sudden teaching of Chan is not about the idea that people may suddenly awaken, since that is not really a teaching to use, nor is it a novel concept unique to Chan.

The sudden awakening in Chan is about directly cutting off deluded concepts and achieving simultaneously and immediately the state of a buddha.

You may review what sudden enlightenment in Chan may stand for in https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=647356#p647356.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 6:41 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Aemilius said:
Quite naturally so, but it is not a method.

Astus wrote:
So it is unlike what is taught in Chan, i.e. the sudden teaching (dunjiao 頓教).

'In a single leap, you directly enter the stage of Tathāgata.
Just grasp the roots, don’t worry about the branches;
It is like a pure beryl gem containing the moon.
Having understood this wish-fulfilling gem,
Using it for the benefit of yourself and others, it will never be exhausted.'
(Yongjia’s Song of Actualizing the Way, BDK ed, p 14)

'To simply right now suddenly comprehend that one’s own mind is fundamentally Buddha, without there being a single dharma one can attain and without there being a single practice one can cultivate—this is the insurpassable enlightenment, this is the Buddha of suchness.'
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 20)

Aemilius said:
Four Courses of Meditation (pratipad); one of the four courses is quick and easy.

Astus wrote:
It is discussed in the https://suttacentral.net/an4-patipadavagga?view=normal in the Anguttara Nikaya (4.161-170). There it becomes clear that 'easy' stands for the four absorptions, and 'quick' for the five powers being strong. It is still a gradual path.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 7th, 2022 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Aemilius said:
The quick awakening of the Dharma-eye has existed, in case of some persons, at the very beginning.

Astus wrote:
Incidental cases of quick insight are not the same as a specific teaching/method/path identified as providing an immediate realisation.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 4:59 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Agent Smith said:
the concept does exist as akrama mukti (sudden liberation)

Astus wrote:
It's not a common concept but one used by him only, so it's nothing to do with Buddhism in India.

Shaiksha said:
The earliest one can probably be found in the Bahiya Sutta - where Bahiya woke up right there after hearing the Buddha's words.

Aemilius said:
Also the stream-entry (enlightenment) of Shariputra/Upatishya

Astus wrote:
See https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=647370#p647370: 'stories of quick attainments are far from being definitive (already the Nikayas have examples for that, like the Bāhiyasutta, but subitism is rejected, e.g. Kīṭāgirisutta, Uposathasutta)'


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm said:
That’s not really what we are talking about here. You ought to stay in your lane. Vajrayana is not your speciality.

Astus wrote:
I claim no such thing. It merely seems to me that there are various interpretations, and some allow even the vase empowerment to happen online.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 8:23 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
conebeckham said:
By this logic, many who attend live in-person empowerments don’t “receive” the empowerment.

Astus wrote:
I guess that's up to where a line is drawn.

'In my own ignorant opinion, all of these must come together as a foundation. In particular, it is my understanding that the vital point is to receive the blessings and realize the nature of the empowerment that is pointed out, which is based on the strength of the meeting between the master's blessings and the disciple's devotion. It appears to me that once you receive such a blessing, (realization of the nature of the empowerment) does not depend solely upon a material empowerment being or not being conferred.'
(Empowerment by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, p 37)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: how do mahayana respond to theravada critism of"Bodhisattva refuse nirvana to liberate all living beings "
Content:
dawn of peace said:
yes, some Theravada  Buddhist maters do teach this, which similar to Mahayana.

Astus wrote:
I was referring to the generally accepted distinction that apart from dhammas everything is paññatti.

'According to dhamma theory, only the dhammas are real; all things besides the dhammas are conceptual constructs or logical abstractions with no objective counterparts.'
(from the introduction of The Theravada Abhidhamma by Y. Karunadasa; see more on this online: https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh412_Karunadasa_Dhamma-Theory--Philosophical-Cornerstone-of-Abhidhamma.pdf )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, November 26th, 2022 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm said:
Meaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.

Astus wrote:
'With regard to receiving the empowerment Lord Jigten Sumgon had said that when you understand the meaning of the empowerment, when the meaning of the empowerment arises in your mind stream, that is when you have received the empowerment. So receiving the empowerment is not only receiving the vase on your crown. The vase is also just a symbol. But what's important is to understand the meaning and to gain some experience. So this is how what actually receives the empowerment.'
(Drupon Rinchen Dorje Rinpoche, 11.07.2020, https://youtu.be/4FtkBvOxuGc?t=1240 -21:19)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, November 26th, 2022 at 7:49 PM
Title: Re: how do mahayana respond to theravada critism of"Bodhisattva refuse nirvana to liberate all living beings "
Content:
dawn of peace said:
some Theravada Buddhists who criticize Mahayana Buddhism,said that Mahayana Buddhists have no desire for liberation because Bodhisattva vow to not attain nirvana until all living being are liberated, such as Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva in Chinese Sutras who vow to  refuse nirvana until all living beings are liberated.

Astus wrote:
That's about not mistaking a temporary state of peace for liberation.

dawn of peace said:
also,they said that Mahayana Buddhists believe that the samsara is not real, or just illusion, there is no need to liberate. They think that the desire for liberation only make sense when samsara and suffering are all real.

Astus wrote:
Even in Theravada what ordinary beings take to be real are merely conceptual, while those who see things for what they are are neither deluded nor attached.

dawn of peace said:
can Theravada's "desire for liberation" and Mahayana's "liberate all living beings" be reconciled.

Astus wrote:
There's no contradiction.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 at 5:48 PM
Title: Re: Karma and Consequences
Content:
Leo Rivers said:
Will I suffer karma for that market with all 3 parts of an action causing act missing? If so, ...

Astus wrote:
The main element of karma is intention, and the main effect is in one's experience. It's less about external events, but more about how events are sensed and interpreted. So the karma one suffers for is in the quality of the experience primarily, not much in the specific happenings.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, November 19th, 2022 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Astus wrote:
Another way to go by is to see the sutras regularly quoted in Chan, like the Diamond Sutra.

'Those who are free from all notions are called buddhas.'
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html#div-15 )

Like in the poem of https://www.globaljikji.org/en/sub.do?menukey=4301&no=45:
'If it can leave false conditions, it is the true buddha.'
(T51n2076p268a22-23 / Records of the Transmission of the Lamp 9.174 / quoted in Master Hsu Yun's Discourses and Dharma Words, p 121)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 18th, 2022 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
And the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.

Astus wrote:
I deemed it a necessary point to make, just to see what might qualify as 'sudden enlightenment' as found in Chan. For instance, stories of quick attainments are far from being definitive (already the Nikayas have examples for that, like the https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/en/sujato, but subitism is rejected, e.g. https://suttacentral.net/mn70/en/sujato, https://suttacentral.net/ud5.5/en/sujato ), even if the case of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longn%C3%BC is often quoted in Chan.

The fundamentally important Treatise on Awakening Mahayana Faith is quite explicit:

'Sometimes, for the sake of weak-willed people, they show how to attain perfect enlightenment quickly by skipping over the stages [of the bodhisattva]. And sometimes, for the sake of indolent people, they say that human beings may attain enlightenment at the end of numberless eons. Thus they can demonstrate innumerable expedient means and suprarational feats. But in reality all these bodhisattvas are the same in that they are alike in their lineage, their capacity, their aspiration, and their realization [of suchness]; therefore, there is no such thing as skipping over the stages, for all bodhisattvas must pass through the three terms of innumerable eons [before they can fully attain enlightenment]. However, because of the differences in the various worlds of beings, and in the objects of seeing and hearing, as well as in the capacity, desires, and nature of the various beings, there are also different ways of teaching them what to practice.'
(The Awakening of Faith, BDK ed, p 66-67)

And the Surangama Sutra states:

'You may suddenly reach an understanding of the principle of the aggregates, and on that basis you may presume the aggregates will all vanish together. But, in fact, they do not all vanish at once; they must be ended in sequence.'
(The Śūraṅgama Sūtra - A New Translation, p 461; referenced by Hyujeung in Seonga gwigam 37 (CWKB, vol 3, p 103-104))

While it's possible to find statements fitting the Chan style, they are not of the systematised path descriptions.

'Furthermore, the bodhisattva acquires the Prajñāpāramitā without practicing any dharma and without acquiring any dharma. Why? All practices (caryā) are erroneous and futile: from near or far, they present faults. In fact, bad dharmas (akuśaladharma) are faulty from close up; as for good dharmas, they are transformed and modified from far away; those who become attached to them will end up by experiencing pain and sorrow; thus they show defects from far off. [Good and bad practices] are like an appetizing food and a disgusting food both of which have been poisoned. As soon as one eats the disgusting food, one feels dissatisfied. When one eats the appetizing food, one feels pleasant satisfaction for the moment, but later it takes one’s life. Therefore both kinds of food should be avoided, and it is the same for good and bad practices.
...
For the person who practices the absence of practice thus, nothing exists any longer: errors (viparyāsa), deceptions (vañcana) and the afflictions (kleśa) no longer arise for they are purified like space (ākāśaśuddha). He acquires the true nature of dharmas by holding his non-acquisition (anupalabdhi) as an acquisition.'
( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225469.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 18th, 2022 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Astus wrote:
'Whereas Tao-sheng had spoken of gradual practice as a prerequisite for sudden enlightenment, Tsung-mi (780-841), representing the later Ch'an position, would take enlightenment to be a priori (pen-chüeh) and accordingly deem practice to be its derived function — a gradual cultivation based on sudden enlightenment.'
(Tao-sheng's Theory of Sudden Enlightenment by Whalen Lai, in Sudden and Gradual: Approaches to Enlightnement in Chinese Thought, p 194)

What probably fits the more popular interpretation of sudden enlightenment:

'The notion of sudden enlightenment stresses the instantaneity or immediacy of enlightenment, the existential-experiential, holistic (not merely intellectual) “sudden opening” and awakening, as one realizes one’s own Buddha-nature. This immediacy transcends dualistic distinctions such as means and goal, cultivation and realization, practice and attainment, parts and whole, and so forth. For sudden teaching (dunjiao), there is no order or procedure of a gradual path that can directly lead to the final goal. It is a path of no-path.'
(Historical Dictionary of Chan Buddhism by Youru Wang, p 211)

Ven. Sheng-yen in Orthodox Chinese Buddhism (p 100-103) measures Chan's sudden awakening with the six identities taught in Tiantai and states that it cannot be anything higher than buddhahood in semblance. Hyujeong (Explanation of Seon and Doctrine, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 274), just like Jinul (Treatise on the Complete and Sudden Attainment of Buddhahood, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 283-284), would disagree, and Huangbo (Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 16) even more so.

How approaches can vary is summed up by Zongmi:

'Of the various sutras and treatises and the various Chan gates, some say that one first relies on the merit accumulated through step-by-step practice and then suddenly all-at-once awakens. Some say that one first relies on all-at-once awakening and then can engage in step-by-step practice. Some say that relying on all-at-once practice, one step-by-step awakens. Some say that awakening and practice are both step-by-step. Some say that they are both all-at-once. Some say that the dharma has neither all-at-once nor step-by-step, that all-at-once and step-by-step are in the dispositions [of trainees].'
(Chan Prolegomenon, in Zongmi on Chan, p 118)

For a more complete picture, Robert E. Buswell Jr. in the introduction of Numinous Awareness is Never Dark (p 46-48) has collected the main forms of sudden/gradual cultivation/awakening schemata, based on the works of Chengguan, Zongmi, and Jinul:

1. Gradualist schemata
1.1. Sudden awakening/gradual cultivation (tono chŏmsu/dunwu jianxiu 頓悟漸修): This schema is described from the vantage point of the understanding-awakening. Awakening is like the rays of the morning sun; cultivation is like polishing a mirror so that it gleams ever more brightly. Zongmi’s similes in his Preface are even clearer: the sun rises suddenly at dawn (awakening) but only gradually evaporates the morning dew (cultivation); or, an infant is born all at once with all the inherent capacities of a human being (awakening), but only gradually matures into an adult who can put those capacities to use (cultivation).
1.2. Gradual cultivation/sudden awakening (chŏmsu tono/jianxiu dunwu 漸修頓悟): Its vantage point is the realization-awakening. Cultivation is like a gleaming mirror; awakening is the reflectiveness of that mirror. Zongmi’s simile in his Preface is that cultivation is like gradually chopping away at a tree, awakening is the moment when the tree finally falls.
1.3. Gradual cultivation/gradual awakening (chŏmsu chŏmo/jianxiu jianwu 漸修漸悟): T his schema is described from the vantage point of the realization-awakening. Cultivating is like climbing a tower; awakening is like seeing more and more the higher you climb.
1.4. Sudden cultivation/gradual awakening (tunsu chŏmo/dunxiu jianwu 頓修漸悟): This is an alternative listed only in Zongmi’s Preface; it is not included in Chengguan’s Zhenyuan Commentary. The vantage point of this schema is also the realization-awakening, as Yanshou clarifies in his discussion. Cultivation here is like going through the singular motion of shooting an arrow over and over; awakening is gradually learning to hit the bull’s-eye consistently. This is also like an apprentice model of learning, where one learns the craft as a whole (sudden cultivation) but only gradually masters it (gradual awakening).
2. Radical subitist schemata
2.1. Sudden awakening/sudden cultivation (tono tonsu/dunwu dunxiu 頓悟頓修): According to Chengguan, this schema is described from the vantage point of the understanding-awakening, though Yanshou in his treatment in Common End of Myriad Good Deeds claims it is actually the realization-awakening. This is like a mirror that naturally gleams (awakening) without needing to be wiped or polished (cultivation). Zongmi’s simile in his Preface is that a spool of thread sliced by a single strike of the sword (awakening) will cut through the entire spool instantly (cultivation).
2.2. Sudden cultivation/sudden awakening (tonsu tono/dunxiu dunwu 頓修頓悟): This schema is described from the vantage point of the realization-awakening. Cultivation is like taking medicine; awakening is like curing the disease.
2.3. Simultaneity of sudden cultivation and sudden awakening (su’o ilsi/xiuwu yishi 修悟一時): This schema is described from the vantage point of both the understanding- and realization-awakenings. Cultivating is like a gleaming mirror; awakening is that mirror reflecting everything in existence.
2.4. Simultaneous sudden awakening and sudden cultivation, using slightly different terminology: this schema also encompasses both the understanding- and realization-awakenings. To be originally endowed with all the qualities of buddhahood is awakening; to have all the practices mastered along the path to buddhahood inherent in a single thought is cultivation. In this alternative, cultivation is like drinking ocean water; awakening is like knowing the taste of all the rivers that have ever flowed into that ocean.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
SilverFantasy said:
But were there schools that had "Chan" like practices in India, before Chan? Or was Chan really the originators of this idea?

Astus wrote:
The radical version of sudden awakening (see nature and become buddha 見性成佛) that came to be the hallmark of Chan is an approach that developed within the tradition, with various teachers and lineages taking different approaches regarding it.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, November 12th, 2022 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: What does Buddhism teach?
Content:
laic said:
As an offshoot from another thread, I have began to reflect upon what Buddhism (aka the Dharma) actually "teaches". Of what parameters should be set - if any - as to what constitutes Buddhist teachings.

Astus wrote:
It's dependent origination and the four noble truths that the Buddha discovered and taught (SN 12.65). All the Buddha's teachings are encompassed by the four noble truths (MN 28), and it's a teaching unlike those of others' (MN 11). A Mahayana definition of what constitutes Buddhism is given as the https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Four_seals ( https://read.84000.co/translation/toh155.html ).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2022 at 2:37 PM
Title: Re: Two Truths Doctrine
Content:
Ardha said:
there is no reason to feel a certain way about anything because stuff just happens but that conventional reality is the world of meaning that we live in.

Astus wrote:
Quite the opposite, there is always a reason, or rather several conditions, to feel a certain way about things. Conventionally: feeling is an act and experience of a being, a self. Ultimately: a temporary feeling is a product of causes and conditions, there is neither an actor nor an experiencer behind the feeling. That is the emptiness of person, of self. And if one investigates further, the feeling, its arising and disappearing, and its causes are also just mere concepts. That is the emptiness of phenomena.

Ardha said:
I don't understand if there is ultimate reality then how can you just go back to living the day to day as if things matter, aren't you pretending at that point?

Astus wrote:
There is no one to go away or come back, that is the primary delusion of positing a self. So if it feels like pretending, then that is a misconstruction of what emptiness means.

Ardha said:
I also didn't understand loss being false at ultimate reality (in regards to someone dying), heck I don't even understand ultimate reality.

Astus wrote:
Without an owner there is no possession, without a possession there is nothing gained or lost.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2022 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: The real problem
Content:
Astus wrote:
'In dependence upon the eye and form 
Mind arises like an illusion. 
It is not reasonable to call 
Illusory that which has existence. 
When there is nothing on earth
That does not amaze the wise, 
Why think cognition by the senses 
And suchlike are amazing. 
The firebrand's ring and magical creations, 
Dreams, illusions, and the moon in water,
Mists, echoes, mirages, clouds 
And worldly existence are alike.'
(Aryadeva, in Four Hundered Stanzas on the Middle Way, 13.323-325)

'Because you relate everything to yourself, everything looks like a huge problem. Where there is no mind, there are no problems.'
(Kodo Sawaki, in To You, ch 19)

'In short, we must once see into our own nature directly. When we see thoroughly that our nature is intrinsically empty, the problem of life and death will vanish like mist.'
(Koun Yamada, in Zen: The Authentic Gate, ch 2)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 14th, 2022 at 10:28 PM
Title: Chan and the Bodhisattva Way
Content:
Astus wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/jianhu.shifu/ (見護法師), hosted by https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100026068752182 (見銷法師) from the https://miao-fa.de/?page_id=82&language=en, talks about the basic elements of Chan and the fundamentals of the bodhisattva way. Both venerables are disciples of https://www.ctworld.org.tw/english-96/html/a2FOUNDING%20MASTER1.htm.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFu7Jdz_3yT94BLgsb3XsNw/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHreujuXtmCowcz1b7kTkwQ

"Let's examine the mind a little bit. You see a shifu here, right, you see two shifus or three shifus here. So you see something, 'Oh, that's a Buddhist monk or Buddhist nun.' Right? That simple experience you see with your eyes and you say oh that's a Buddhist monk, speaking. That simple experience consists of two parts: knowing and consciousness. Knowing means you perceive something through your eyes. You perceive there's an object here wearing brown robes, looking like a person. Right? See, perceiving this through your eyes, that's called knowing. Now at this point you have not formed a concept, but immediately, in less than a second, you say, 'Oh, that's a Buddhist monk.' That's a concept, that's an idea that you learned. Right? If you've never seen a Buddhist monk, you say, 'What is this, what is this person? Right? You don't know. But because you have some knowledge about Buddhism, so you say, 'Oh, that's a Buddhist monk.' That's an idea, that's part of your consciousness, that's the part of your mind we call consciousness. It consists of ideas, concepts, emotions, judgment, decision, discrimination, in a good and bad way. So all of that is consciousness. Most of what we call our mind is actually consciousness. Most of us ignore a more basic function of our mind, and that is knowing, or just simple perception, they just perceive some information."
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNEQvav9qAQ, 54:16-56:39)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: Can meditation be bad?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Meditation can be called bad if it does not yield the results expected. Whether it has some difficulties or not is another matter.

'Mendicants, there are four ways of practice. What four? Painful practice with slow insight, painful practice with swift insight, pleasant practice with slow insight, and pleasant practice with swift insight.'
( https://suttacentral.net/an4.162/en/sujato, cf. https://read.84000.co/translation/toh317.html#UT22084-072-017-99 )

There is meditation, and there is correct meditation (sammāsamādhi/samyaksamādhi).

'And what is noble right immersion with its vital conditions and its prerequisites? They are: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness. Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble right immersion with its vital conditions and also with its prerequisites.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn45.28/en/sujato, https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato ))

There is meditation, and there is the perfection of meditation (dhyānapāramitā).

'Moreover, the tīrthikas, śrāvakas aand bodhisattvas acquire all the dhyānas and samāpattis. There are three kinds of faults in the tīrthika dhyāna: attachment to enjoyment (āsvādanābhiniveśa), wrong view (mithyadṛṣti) and pride (abhimāna). In the śrāvaka dhyāna, loving-kindness (maitrī) and compassion (karuṇā) are slight; they do not have at their disposal a knowledge in regard to the Dharma sufficiently sharp as to progressively penetrate the true nature of dharmas; being exclusively interested in their own selves, they destroy the lineage of Buddhas [within themselves]. In the bodhisattva dhyāna there are no defects; wishing to unite all the attributes of Buddha, they do not forget beings during the dhyāna and they endlessly extend their kindness even to insects.'
( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225441.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2022 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: If my eons of negative karma are purified through Mahayana buddhist practice, then why am I still suffering?
Content:
rodolfosancheznusa36 said:
It is a common belief in Mahayana that chanting certain mantras or the names of Buddhas or Bodhisattvas, prostrating, etc can purify eons and eons of bad karma. If that is the case, why am I still facing so much adversity and suffering?

Astus wrote:
Purification means changing one's current attitude. Unless one's current behaviour and way of thinking changes there is no change in how events are experienced.

On this matter see: https://suttacentral.net/mn101/en/sujato and https://suttacentral.net/an3.100/en/sujato.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2022 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Highest Texts/Sutras/Tantras for Seon Buddhism?
Content:
nomono said:
Which set of texts or techniques are held to be the highest in the tradition?

Astus wrote:
As for texts, Seon (just as Chan) is called a distinct path from those that follow sutras.

'The transmission of the mind by the World Honored One at three sites is the gist of Seon; what was spoken by him over his lifetime is the gate of Doctrine. Therefore it is said, “Seon is the Buddha mind; Doctrine is the Buddha word.”'
(Seonga gwigam, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 58)

In practice that means that there isn't one particular scripture taken as the best or the highest, but rather the whole canon can be used, with a number of texts studied and referenced more regularly.

Regarding the technique, the mainstream method in current Seon is hwadu practice. You can read about that in this online summary: http://koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020, and there's also this translation published not too long ago: https://academic.oup.com/book/41233. https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-letters-of-chan-master-dahui-pujue-9780190664169?cc=us&lang=en& and https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-chan-whip-anthology-9780190200725?cc=us&lang=en& are also recommended. Plus the works on the topic by Jinul and Hyujeong in the http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=5040&sca=The+Collected+Works+of+Korean+Buddhism%2C2012.

nomono said:
Any more deeper teachings, sutras, tantras and commentaries than the already known, for later advanced studies?

Astus wrote:
If you are finished with studying the Heart Sutra, the Diamond Sutra, and the Platform Sutra, then read the Complete Enlightenment Sutra (圓覺經), the Vajrasamadhi Sutra (金剛三昧經), and the Surangama Sutra (楞嚴經).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 6th, 2022 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharma Question about Killing
Content:
Seeker12 said:
I don't understand how setting a deer free is a root downfall.

Astus wrote:
Goodman writes in the note for that sentence: 'If deer have been captured by a hunter, setting them free could be considered stealing; but, according to Śāntideva, this would not be a violation of the monastic code.'


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 6th, 2022 at 3:47 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharma Question about Killing
Content:
Astus wrote:
'The noble Cloud of Jewels states clearly that it is permissible to kill someone who is about to commit an action of immediate retribution. And also, in the monastic code of the disciples, a basis for a root downfall that is done out of compassion, such as to set free deer and so on, is said not to be a downfall.'
(The Training Anthology of Śāntideva, p 165-166)

'There are also certain naturally objectionable acts such that, when they are performed by a bodhisattva with a particular kind of skillful means, he or she not only remains free of any offense but also generates a great amount of merit. An example would be a situation in which a bodhisattva sees a thief or a robber who is intent upon killing many hundreds of living beings—great persons [such as] listeners, solitary realizers, or bodhisattvas—for the sake of a small amount of material wealth, [making this person] someone who is preparing to commit many instances of an immediate misdeed. Having seen this, [a bodhisattva] then forms the following thought with his or her mind: “Even though I shall have to be reborn in the hells for depriving this living being of his or her life, it is better that I should be reborn in a hell than that this sentient should end up in the hells because of having committed an immediate misdeed.” After a bodhisattva who has had such a thought determines that his or her state of mind toward this living being is either virtuous or indeterminate, and after developing a single-minded attitude of sympathy about the future while experiencing [a sense of] abhorrence, he or she then deprives [this living being] of his or her life. [Having done this, a bodhisattva] will not only remain free of any offense but will also generate a great amount of merit.'
(The Bodhisattva Path to Unsurpassed Enlightenment, I.10.2.10.11)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2022 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
The more we want to see a Buddha, the more likely one will seem to appear, even if it isn’t real.

Astus wrote:
'Mendicants, there are these five drawbacks of placing faith in an individual. What five? The individual to whom a person is devoted falls into an offense such that the Saṅgha suspends them. ... the Saṅgha makes them sit at the end of the line. ... Furthermore, the individual to whom a person is devoted departs for another region … disrobes … passes away.'.
( https://suttacentral.net/an5.250/en/sujato )

'Not seeing the teaching, they do not see me. ... Seeing the teaching, they see me.'
( https://suttacentral.net/iti92/en/sujato; cf. https://suttacentral.net/sn22.87/en/sujato )

'Therefore do not rely on individuals,
But rely upon the Dharma.
Freedom comes from the genuine path that is taught,
Not from the one who teaches it.

When the teachings are well presented,
It does not matter what the speaker is like.
Even the bliss-gone buddhas themselves
Appear as butchers and such like to train disciples.

If he contradicts the Mahāyāna and so on,
Then however eloquent a speaker may seem,
He will bring you no real benefit,
Like a demon assuming Buddha’s form.'
( https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/mipham/sword-of-wisdom, v 63-65)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2022 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Apart from the Theravada view of arhats there's also the Mahayana version, in particular the popular image of arhats in East Asia as a bit mundane, sometimes even vulgar saints like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji_Gong.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2022 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?
Content:
Astus wrote:
It seems the correct question is: is Frank Yang a Buddhist teacher? Based on a couple of his writings, he does not uphold any specific or general Buddhist doctrine and discipline, and has his own version of things.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2022 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
My point about the links prior to ‘birth’ is that, as you noted, they can’t be changed. Since ‘ignorance’ (and all the links to ‘becoming’) are prior to ‘birth', nothing can be done to prevent birth.

Astus wrote:
I meant that once a being was born what had happened before that had already happened. But it doesn't mean that before birth there was no birth, it's just that that was another life. So when the twelve links are split into three lives, then the first two are in the previous life, the middle eight in the present life, and the last two in the future life. At the same time, the current life is the past of the next one and the future of the previous one.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2022 at 3:26 PM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Astus, It seems to me that by your understanding all the links prior to the birth of a being that ages and dies are beyond the influence of the being birthed. Or you’re redefining the plain meaning of birth, aging and dying.

Astus wrote:
Regardless if two minutes ago or two aeons ago, the past is already gone, so how could anyone change it? What can be changed has to happen now.

clyde said:
Sentient beings are born, age and die, and have innumerable labels applied (and self-applied) on them, but it is the sentient beings which are born, age and die, not the labels.

Astus wrote:
A sentient being is a label. Because labels are mere concepts they seem to imply something permanent and continuous. A being (satta) is being attached (satta) to the aggregates ( https://suttacentral.net/sn23.2/en/sujato, & https://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/52.2e-Radha-Satta-Sutta-s23.2-piya.pdf ). There is a new being every time we find something to occupy ourselves with. This also applies on a larger scale, from childhood to old age, from the previous life to the next one. So, becoming (bhava) means the process of habituation, a stronger form of clinging (hence: identifying), and that leads to both the momentary birth of a being just as it does to the next life. In the latter case it's usually just called karma.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2022 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Astus, If I understand you correctly, you’re understanding “becoming” as the habit (repetition) of grasping. But how is the habit of grasping a requisite condition for the birth of a being which ages and dies?
And in your example, it’s the signing up to run in a race that is the requisite condition for winning or losing, regardless of whether one trains (the habit) or not.

Astus wrote:
Becoming is the habituation of grasping, or in other words identifying with something. It is the requisite condition of the birth of a being that ages and dies because being somebody means taking a habit not as something to pursue but as something one evidently is, as a fact. A being/entity/person means a set of habitual truths, in other words a karmic formation. The ageing and dying means that what are held as truths/facts of oneself are constantly influenced and changed by new choices and actions.
The signing up and participating in the race is the fulfilment of becoming, that it's come to the point of being fixed into the entity of one who's completed one's goal. But the same process applies to practically any other story, like how one becomes a painter, a carpenter, or a Buddhist.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2022 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Perhaps if you used “becoming” in a sentence, not to explain the Twelve Links, but in a typical sentence so that I might see what “becoming” means to you.

Astus wrote:
The series from craving to birth is how beings emerge, from a weak intention to a solid entity. Becoming is the habituation of what one has grasped, and once it has become second nature, then that is birth where one doesn't do it but one is it. The distinction between 'action-becoming' (kammabhava) and 'resultant-becoming' (upapattibhava) reflects how during the phase of becoming there is on the one hand the need to actively habituate something, i.e. keep repeating, and there is also the established habit that one follows.

Let's say one likes the idea of winning a marathon, that is craving. If one immediately dismisses it as unrealistic or simply moves on to another idea, then it's over. If one holds on to the idea of winning a marathon, then that's clinging. Because of clinging to the idea of winning a marathon one reads training plans, orders a pair of running shoes, and goes out for a little jogging. If one decides not to continue with the training, then it's over. If one keeps at it, makes it a regular habit to train, then that's becoming. Because of the continued training one has become ready to run an entire marathon. If one decides that it's better not to risk losing a race, then it's over. If one signs up to a race and wins/loses, then that is the birth of a winner/loser.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2022 at 3:59 PM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
But to use your apple juice example, how does identifying as an apple juice drinker give rise to the birth of anything that grows old, sick and dies?

Astus wrote:
It gives birth to a personality trait that serves as one of the factors in making decisions and acting in the world. Its impermanence (decay and cessation) is visible on various levels. Momentarily one is an apple juice drinker when the situation of choosing it as one's beverage for dinner comes up. Once one has made the choice the mind (thoughts, attention, etc.) moves on to other topics/objects, like what to eat, what to talk about, what to listen to. Right there the entity of the apple juice drinker has disappeared, died. As a habit it can manifest again and again, either throughout a certain period of one's life, for instance during one's childhood, or it can persist until the current lifespan is finished. It is also possible that it recurs in future lives, given the right circumstances. No matter the extent of time we look at, the self/entity/being/person (I drink apple juice / I am an apple juice drinker) is temporary, subject to change, and not something that can exist independently of other factors. Because things change, the maintenance of that entity comes with confrontations with the changing circumstances. Since one is the being who drinks apple juice, it is hoped for and expected to be able to act as such, in other words, to always have apple juice to drink. Strong habits also have the tendency to give birth to other habits, like requiring a specific type of glass to drink from, particular brands of apple juice to consume at different times of the day, and so on, up to the level of complexity of a whole set of rituals. There is also the tendency to propagate the activity to others, so that they not only appreciate one's personality but also adopt the same set of behaviours. And the more one builds up the more confrontations can occur, and the more elements keep changing and ceasing.
Apart from its momentary impermanence it might be easier to see the decay and death of personality traits, habits, entities with other examples, like with being a wine/beer drinker, being a smoker, being a meat eater or vegetarian, being a fan of a football team, being a husband/wife, and so on. One would say that between the wedding ceremony and the issuing of a divorce/death certificate one remains a husband. But no person can keep in mind "I am a husband" even for just a couple of minutes. That's momentary decay and death of what was born as an entity. One acts as the husband within limited circumstances during the day, but when at the office, when travelling, when being annoyed by the slow progress of a queue the "husband" is nowhere. Still, it's not impossible to be the husband of the same person even in the next life (e.g. AN 4.55).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2022 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
How does identifying lead to becoming?

Astus wrote:
Becoming (bhava) is what was called identifying, so identifying does not lead to becoming, unless you mean how the momentary/present life version connect to the many lives version of dependent origination. If the latter, then becoming stands for the type of karma accumulated (habituated) in the current life that defines future birth.

clyde said:
And I don’t understand the meaning of “becoming” (“a clinging becomes a personally held truth”?) nor the “becoming process”. What is “becoming” that leads to birth, a birth which leads to old age and death (so it must mean a birth of a being capable of aging and death)?

Astus wrote:
Becoming above was used with reference to its momentary, presently observable form, and there birth means the solidification of an identity that then changes, deteriorates, to eventually cease. If you are asking about birth in a future life, then as in the previous paragraph.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2022 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
For example, how is “identifying with” the sensual (“enjoying things”) requisite for birth which leads to old age and death?

Astus wrote:
If one assumes the perspective of one who likes to drink apple juice it turns into a habit that one follows instinctively. But as conditions necessarily change, feeding that habit creates various challenges, starting with the effort required to feed it down to detrimental consequences like preferring exclusively the company of apple juice drinkers and hating those who say anything bad about apple juice. In other words, becoming (bhava) is when a clinging becomes a personally held truth, and birth (jāti) when the motivation/inclination given by that truth turns into a personality trait.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2022 at 5:56 PM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
While this seems sensible, where is this stated or taught? And that would imply that the five aggregates are already existent and not dependent on these links for their existence - but then that contradicts the Twelve Links teaching.

Astus wrote:
It is taught at each link. As you well noted, to say that there is ignorance without there being one who is ignorant is meaningless. Ignorance is a mental factor, a defilement of the mind, so to say it exists apart from a being is like saying it is not a mental factor at all.
The twelve links are not about the original beginning of things, it is not like there was nothing before ignorance somehow arose. The twelve links can be understood both in terms of three lives (past, present, future), and in a momentary process as well. In both cases there is us who go through those links.

clyde said:
As I understand your explanation, “ignorance” is ignorance of the Dharma or at least of the Second Noble Truth and you say this ignorance gives rise to concocting. How does ignorance give rise to concocting? How does ignorance give rise to anything? And are you meaning that if one knows the Dharma and how suffering arises, then concocting doesn’t arise and all that follows, including consciousness, birth and death don’t arise?

Astus wrote:
Ignorance is often defined as not knowing the four noble truths, but it can also be not knowing dependent origination and dependent cessation, hence ignorance about how suffering arises and ceases. It gives rise to concocting/fabrication because one believes that's the way to satisfy one's desires, to achieve one's goals. Ignorance gives rise to concocting because one sees only the advantages, the allure of something beautiful and pleasant, but not the drawbacks of craving for and grasping at it. That's why it takes mindfulness and wisdom to avoid falling for such impulses. Knowing the Dharma (how suffering arises and ceases) in theory is important but insufficient on its own to overcome one's bad habits, that's why developing all factors of awakening is necessary. In other words, samadhi and prajna are both needed for liberation.

clyde said:
As traditionally given, each link is “a requisite condition” from which comes the following link; i.e., without the precedent link the following link doesn’t arise. You present the links as “colouring” or modifying the following link. That seems to be a departure from the traditional understanding.

Astus wrote:
The twelve links are present at each instance of suffering ignorantly. It's not that when there is one link present, like feeling, then the others are missing. Using the three lives format, when one feels something pleasant (note that already that single feeling exists in a compounded way within a network of conditions), then there had to be a contact with something through the six sense gates, and that thing is recognised as a particular form with a particular name, and one has an opinion (mindset) of that thing that is primarily driven by an intention, and that motivation can exist because of not knowing any better. Because of the presence of the preconditions it is inevitable that the feeling of something pleasant is met with liking it, the need to hold it, and thus defining one's whole experience of the world, what in turn gives rise to a fixed set of particular behaviour and mentality that will necessarily deteriorate and decease.
Let's take an apple juice as an example for a pleasant object. To recognise it as such one needs to come in contact with it (seeing/tasting/imagining), and that contact to be meaningful one needs a couple of preconditions, like knowing what an apple juice is and an opinion of it whether one likes it or not. Since one recognises the apple juice as something desirable, it is a pleasant object. With the recognition of the tasty juice comes the thirst for it, the thirst develops into the need to have it, that grows into the thought of being the one who delightedly experiences drinking it. With those present arises the view and entity of the subject partaking of an object, the subject being the actor and enjoyer, while the object what is seen/tasted/imagined. Then with the changing of the object, for instance finishing a glass of apple juice, the subject loses its reason to exist and experiences some dissatisfaction because of that. All this can go down in a few seconds from seeing the apple juice to having drunk it. And then it happens again and again with the various experiences happening, the previous conditioning the next.

clyde said:
Also, your definition of becoming as identity seems strange. But then all the definitions of becoming seem odd. In the suttas, Buddha is said to explain that there are three types of becoming: sensual, form, and formless. What does that mean? And how is that identity?

Astus wrote:
Identity in the sense of identifying with a certain action plan, a route to take, an attitude towards something, as the strongest form of owning/being preceding the actual manifestation of that conglomeration of physical and mental force. It is the point between the determination to have/keep something and actively being the one who works to get or preserve it.
The three types of becoming categorises the general motivation of one's actions. Sensual means enjoying things, so in case of the apple juice it means appreciating its colour, its smell, its taste. Form refers to perceiving things without the sensuous-emotional tone, like when analysing the physical properties or the chemical components of the juice in a scientific way, or it can also be from an artistic point of view. Formless stands for the abstract, the conceptual, like thinking about why an apple juice is called an apple juice. That's more in modern terms of course, in the usual explanation form and formless are exclusively the domain of religious practitioners and philosophers.

clyde said:
I could go on and I’m not trying to difficult, but I am trying to understand a teaching, the Twelve Links, which doesn’t make sense to me, seems convoluted, and seems to confound even Buddhist teachers. The other core teachings of the Buddha, in contrast, are relatively easy to understand and often available to one’s experience.

Astus wrote:
'What are the profound dharmas (gambhīradharma)?
The twelve causes and conditions (dvādaśahetupratyaya) are called gambhīradharma. Thus the Buddha said to Ānanda: “The twelve causes and conditions (or pratītyasamutpāda) are profound (gambhīra), difficult to probe (durvigāhya) and difficult to understand (duranubodha).”'
( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225102.html; cf https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato )

'When they see a sight with their eyes, if it’s pleasant they desire it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body unestablished and their heart restricted. And they don’t truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over. Being so full of favoring and opposing, when they experience any kind of feeling—pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral—they approve, welcome, and keep clinging to it. This gives rise to relishing. Relishing feelings is grasping. Their grasping is a condition for continued existence. Continued existence is a condition for rebirth. Rebirth is a condition for old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress to come to be. That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2022 at 5:05 PM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
How is ignorance a condition for mental concocting even before there is consciousness?

Astus wrote:
Dependent origination applies to beings, so it's the five aggregates that are affected at each link. The individual link highlights the most outstanding factor influencing other qualities.

clyde said:
What can ignorance mean in this regard? Or mental concocting? And so on for each link; e.g. - How is attachment a condition of ‘becoming’ (and what does that mean) and how is becoming a condition of birth?

Astus wrote:
When one is ignorant about how suffering arises and ceases, then one concocts/fabricates physical, verbal, and mental activities to perform, and that results in a mindset/attitude (consciousness) that regulates one's bodily and mental functions, thus colouring one's senses, so when there is an impression (contact) and a related quality (feeling), then necessarily one enjoys and delights in it (craving), therefore wants to hang on to it (clinging), and that turns into an identity (becoming), so it defines one's whole being (birth), but eventually, like everything else, it'll fall apart and thus cause pain.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 27th, 2022 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Twelve Links
Content:
clyde said:
Does anyone else feel this way about the Twelve Links? Or do you understand it and if you do, what do you understand?

Astus wrote:
It can be summarised https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=601525#p601525. For a more in depth explanation I recommend these from Bhuddhadasa Bhikkhu: https://www.suanmokkh.org/books/126 and https://books.google.com/books?id=EaHRDgAAQBAJ. And this one is likely the best that's readily available: https://buddhadhamma.github.io/dependent-origination.html. For a short overview from the Mahayana perspective see The Heart of Interdependent Origination and its commentary by Nagarjuna in http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nagarjuna.pdf on pages 58-64. There's also this section of the Mahaprajnaparamitasastra explaining in even less words: https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225106.html. For more by Nagarjuna, see chapter 26 of the Middle Treatise (Mulamadhyamakakarika). The Compass of Zen by Seung Sahn also has a chapter on the twelve links.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 21st, 2022 at 3:29 PM
Title: Re: That story (in "The Hidden Lamp") about Yantou and "Ganji's Family"
Content:
curtstein said:
I found one more instance, and this one seems to be the one that Cleary translated and that eventually ended up in "The Hidden Lamp". It's called "Ganzhi's Wife" (甘贄妻), and it is found, as near as I can make out, in a collection of stories about "Excellent Women" (優婆夷志目錄) found in CBETA here: http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/mobile/index.php?index=X87n1621_001.

Astus wrote:
Great catch, it's the right version. The title of the collection Youpoyi Zhi (優婆夷志) means Record of Upasikas, compiled by Yuanxin ( https://authority.dila.edu.tw/person/?fromInner=A001408 ) and Guo Ningzhi ( https://authority.dila.edu.tw/person/?fromInner=A001771 ) around 1644-1647 (according to https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/12215045.pdf ).


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 20th, 2022 at 4:40 PM
Title: Re: That story (in "The Hidden Lamp") about Yantou and "Ganji's Family"
Content:
Astus wrote:
Ganzhi ( https://authority.dila.edu.tw/person/?fromInner=A007166 ) has his own entry in the Records of the Transmission of the Lamp, vol 3, 10.203 ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T51n2076_p0279b07 ), but the story with the needle appears almost 200 years later in volume 6 of the Liandeng Huiyao (聯燈會要, https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/X79n1557_p0063c01 ), then elsewhere, like the Xutang Heshang Yulu (虛堂和尚語錄), vol 5 ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T47n2000_p1022b07 ) and the Gaofeng Yuanmiao Chanshi Yulu (高峰原妙禪師語錄), vol 2 ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/X70n1400_p0694c08 ).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2022 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: Chan is
Content:
LastLegend said:
Show yourself stop hiding in the bush.

Astus wrote:
It's just a bush blown by the wind. Who are you looking for?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 11th, 2022 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Chan is
Content:
Astus wrote:
Even if that toy plastic stick of Chan was made of the iron of Acala's sword it wouldn't amount to more than flowery words.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2022 at 7:48 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment
Content:
Jokingfish said:
Any truth in this idea?

Astus wrote:
Not really. Check out the https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/sujato about the 62 wrong views (or the shorter summary in the https://suttacentral.net/mn102/en/sujato ), that's where the various outsider teachers can be categorised with their extremist views.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 9th, 2022 at 4:28 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment
Content:
Astus wrote:
About nirvana from the Theravada tradition:

“Reverend Sāriputta, they speak of this thing called ‘extinguishment’. What is extinguishment?”
“Reverend, the ending of greed, hate, and delusion is called extinguishment.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn38.1/en/sujato )

“And what is complete understanding? The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is called complete understanding.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.106/en/sujato )

“The ending of greed, hate, and delusion. This is the culmination of the spiritual path.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn45.6/en/sujato )

“Mendicant, the removal of greed, hate, and delusion is a term for the element of extinguishment. It’s used to speak of the ending of defilements.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/sujato )

'A fire that does not get any more fuel cannot continue to burn but simply dies down and becomes extinguished. Likewise, an arahant’s aggregates that have been caused through previous kamma do not arise as a new life or new aggregates but, after having arisen, simply cease and become extinguished. After the cessation of the aggregates the aggregates no longer arise. As a result, the aggregates that constantly arise in an arahant due to the momentum of previous kamma do not continue to arise in a new life but are extinguished in this very life.
Nibbāna without residue remaining is synonymous with the cessation of the aggregates (khandhaparinibbāna). Once the path has been attained and after having entered parinibbāna, there is no longer any opportunity for the arising of mental and physical phenomena that would come into existence if the path were not attained. In addition, cessation of the five aggregates is accomplished with the realization of the path knowledge of arahantship.'
(Manual of Insight by Mahāsi Sayādaw, p 459-460)

'Only in the commentaries we find a distinction made in this respect. The parinibbāna of the living arahant is called kilesaparinibbāna, the perfect extinguishment of the defilements, while what comes at the last moment of an arahant's life is called khandhaparinibbāna, the perfect extinguishment of the groups or aggregates.Such a qualification, however, is not found in the discourses.'
( https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Mind-Stilled_HTML.htm#Mindstilled19 )

'In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.
With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds.'
( http://www.aimwell.org/On%20the%20Nature%20of%20Nibbana.pdf, p 64-65)

'The genuine kind of Nibbāna, different from the Nibbāna of other sects, was discovered by the Buddha. Natural Nibbāna can happen simply because the defilements arise and end naturally, because they are just another kind of concocted nature. Every time the defilements don’t appear, Nibbāna becomes apparent to the mind. This temporary Nibbāna nourishes the lives of living things so they survive and don’t go crazy. At least, it lets us sleep at night. Nibbāna isn’t any kind of special city anywhere. It is realized in the mind that is now void of besieging defilements. For the morality of ordinary people at home, its name is ‘nibbuti.’ Nibbāna isn’t the mind, but it appears to the mind as a certain āyatana. We can experience Nibbāna here and now by breathing in cool and breathing out cool. It is the automatic quenching of heat, of thirst, of dukkha in ordinary life, even without our being conscious of it. It is the eternal nourishment and sustenance of life.'
( https://www.suanmokkh.org/books/84, p 11)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 6th, 2022 at 3:12 PM
Title: Re: Supernatural powers
Content:
Jokingfish said:
Are they real or just a metaphor?

Astus wrote:
They are real as far as they happen in stories and occur as meditative or visionary experiences.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 5th, 2022 at 4:26 PM
Title: Re: An Ode to Not Meditating
Content:
Astus wrote:
“Good friends, one’s enlightenment (one’s Way, dao) must flow freely. How could it be stagnated? When the mind does not reside in the dharmas, one’s enlightenment flows freely. For the mind to reside in the dharmas is called ‘fettering oneself.’ If you say that always sitting without moving is it, then you’re just like Śāriputra meditating in the forest, for which he was scolded by Vimalakīrti!
“Good friends, there are also those who teach meditation [in terms of ] viewing the mind, contemplating tranquility, motionlessness, and nonactivation. You are supposed to make an effort on the basis of these. These deluded people do not understand, and in their grasping become mixed up like all of you here. You should understand that such superficial teachings are greatly mistaken!”
(Platform Sutra, ch 4, BDK ed, p 43)

“There are a bunch of blind shavepates who, having stuff ed themselves with food, sit down to meditate and practice contemplation. Arresting the fl ow of thought they don’t let it rise; they hate noise and seek stillness. Th is is the method of the heretics. A patriarch said, ‘If you stop the mind to look at stillness, arouse the mind to illumine outside, control the mind to clarify inside, concentrate the mind to enter samādhi — all such [practices] as these are artificial striving.’”
(Record of Linji, tr Sasaki, p 17)

“Although a great many people practice zazen, almost all of them practice in the way of ordinary people, Hinayana practitioners, or bodhisattvas with provisional Mahayana understanding. Those who understand jijuyu--zanmai as the true enlightenment of all buddhas are very few.
That is why some hurry on their way to gain enlightenment by wrestling with koans. Some struggle within themselves, searching for the subject that sees and hears.
Some try to rid themselves of their delusory thoughts in order to reach a pleasant place of no-mind, no-thought. Many other methods of practicing zazen were advocated by various teachers in the Song, Yuan, and Ming dynasties in China. But, it appears that fewer than one in a hundred knew the true samadhi transmitted by the buddhas and ancestors.”
(Jijuyu-Zanmai, in Heart of Zen, p 41)

'"Sitting" meditation means that you maintain a calm and steady mind while entrusting every single thing to Juingong, with the faith that Juingong is the source and destination of all things. Thus "sitting" meditation is possible in any circumstance - it is the mind that sits, not the body. As long as you let go and entrust with belief, your daily life itself can be meditation.
When some people first hear about letting go, it seems too ambiguous or difficult. They feel uncertain about what to do when they hear about letting go, because no method or detailed instruction is given. You may feel that you have to use sitting meditation in order to practice. However, your mind doesn't sit just because your body does. Meditation is done through mind, not through the body. You have to begin by taking care of problems through mind. You're doing things backward if you're trying to use your body to grasp your mind.
From the very beginning, you have to practice through mind. This mind should be your fundamental mind, not the false self, not "I." If you're trying to rely upon something other than mind, it's like trying to hold a shadow. Your basic direction is already wrong, so you can't avoid going astray. This is why I don't give people the traditional hwadus to practice with.
Calm and steady practice, together with deep and sincere faith, is itself meditation. This can also be called true meditation, where you do not have even the thoughts "I'm doing...," or "I was sitting in meditation." It is also living meditation: you can practice in whatever circumstances you find yourself.
Light the lantern of your mind, and keep it bright every single day. Seon is nothing other than this. In your daily life, if you do not give rise to the illusion of "I," if you entrust everything to Juingong, and if your mind is completely unshakable, regardless of whether you find yourself in heaven or in hell, then this is true meditation.'
(No River to Cross by Zen Master Daehaeng, p 53-54)

"Good sons, when you know illusion, you will immediately be free, without devising expedient means. Freedom from illusion is in itself enlightenment, and there are no stages. All Bodhisattvas and sentient beings of the degenerate age who practice like this will be permanently free from all illusion."
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/sutra_of_perfect_enlightenment.html#div-2 )

'How should the venerable monks understand this? Not accomplishing it by skill-in-means is also without gradual stages. Where was the meaning of that ancient? If this is understood, then all the Buddhas are forever in ones sight. If not understood, do not fall to discussing The Sutra of Full Awakening. Now the Buddhadharma, from of old until today, has never not been in full view. All worthy monks in all times have collectively inherited this powerful light, so it is necessary to have a great root of faith, so that the lotus can begin to rise. Unable to see the Buddhas, astute practioners crossing to the other shore are capable of being useful as vessels of the Dharma. Even if not endowed with other virtues, those of long practice in purifying karma have to be like a big butcher throwing down his knife and testify to the fruits of arhatship, beginning like this straightaway. Therefore an oldie said that if one joins the ranks of the Buddhists, then straightaway pass it on to ordinary folk.'
(Records of the Transmission of the Lamp, vol 6, 25.885)

'The sutra says that when we recognize illusions, we should detach ourselves from them without the use of expedient means. How can we perceive illusions as illusions? What methods can practitioners use to progress through these four levels?
First, we must settle our minds. This method is known as “stilling the mind.” In order to see illusion as illusion, we must be mentally calm. Once this is achieved, we can effectively use the second method of practice: contemplating the self and worldly phenomena, or worldly dharmas. It is extremely difficult to detach oneself from the body, mind, and worldly phenomena without practicing these two methods.'
(Complete Enlightenment: Zen Comments on the Sutra of Complete Enlightenment by Ch’an Master Sheng Yen, p 116)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 3rd, 2022 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: How to search CBETA for the uninitiated?
Content:
Astus wrote:
The whole text is here: https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/X0424_001

To search by canon references, like X424, 22:606b, that means it's the 22nd volume of Xuzangjing, book 424, page 606 section b.

In the top left corner the three lines give you the text selector, then choose By Book Volume.

To see the page references click on the cogwheel icon at the top.

There's also the CBETA operation manual for the https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/doc/en/03-01_select1.php, the https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/doc/en/03-02_select2.php, and the https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/doc/en/03-03_read_setting.php.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 5:49 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
So, working like a magnet through his non-intentional manifestation power, beings undergo their own intentional action, but when it orients them towards buddhahood, it is the working of the buddha—even though the intention is only on their side:

Astus wrote:
What exactly is the working of a buddha in a being's liberation from afflictions? In other words: do beings have to gain wisdom and let go of the three poisons, or can a buddha do it for them? If beings have to do it, then a buddha is a guide, a teacher - just as it's said even in your quotes - and not a saviour. If a buddha can do it for them, then it should have been done for all already.

Zhen Li said:
So, to answer your question, yes the Buddha's working is what leads us to liberation in a conventional sense, but the Buddha is not acting intentionally like a god—that is still the intentionality only of the saṃsāric being.

Astus wrote:
Leads in what sense? By providing the proper instructions, or by supernatural manipulation of the beings themselves and their environments?

Zhen Li said:
I am not saying that the Buddha's power is external—if it were then shinjin would be impossible.

Astus wrote:
If it's not external then what's the point of talking of buddhas influencing beings? It's just us, ordinary beings cultivating the path.

Zhen Li said:
Self-power and other-power are actually designations for actions that rely on the calculating self and those that are inaccord with the Buddha's manifesting power. So, this is not a question of either buddhas doing it or beings doing it. It's both.

Astus wrote:
If self-power means the approach of 'me cultivating the path', and other-power means 'in accord with the Buddha's manifesting power', and those two are not exclusive, it just means that 'I cultivate the path taught by the Buddha', because that's when one makes the effort in accord with the Buddha's teachings. Or did you mean something else?

Zhen Li said:
Again, you are thinking dualistically about this. If beings had to cultivate themselves without the Buddha's involvement in the way I described, there would be no awakening and the way you are conceiving of it has no connection to buddha-nature doctrine.

Astus wrote:
It is quite vague and unclear what you actually mean by any involvment of the Buddha. See the paragraphs right above this one with the various questions about it.
The quote is from one of the fundamental texts of buddha-nature teachings. How is that not connected?

Zhen Li said:
This discussion is in an eternal loop now, and we are just repeating what we said before, so are we going to take a break?

Astus wrote:
We can do that.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 4:05 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
You are assuming that the Buddha is an omnipotent god.

Astus wrote:
On the contrary, it seems you attribute all sorts of abilities to buddhas to actively liberate beings, from controlling their samsaric conditions up to making them awakened. For instance https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=639741#p639741 that 'one can see 1 and 2 as manifestations of the Buddha's compassionate working', that is, it is the working of a buddha what karmic conditions a being has. That is practically direct control of beings' karma. Or what is it you meant?

Zhen Li said:
The Buddha manifests in accord with beings minds and does not force them to do things that are not appropriate. Acting by the Buddha's power, buddhānubhavena, which occurs frequently in the sūtras, is something that occurs when the conditions are right for teaching, understanding, etc.—again, see the Tathāgataguhya quotes above, Vajrapāṇi explains this clearly.

Astus wrote:
Since buddhas manifests according to beings' minds, it is solely up to each being to purify their own minds, no buddha can do it for them. So the differences between who can perceive what body of a buddha: nirmanakaya for ordinary beings, sambhogakaya for arya-bodhisattvas, dharmakaya for buddhas.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=639632#p639632 states basic buddha-nature doctrine, it does not say beings are influenced by an external power of a buddha. Rather the opposite actually, beings can understand the explanations of a buddha because they have the same nature as a buddha. But there is no magic power involved, no beings are transformed into buddhas by other buddhas.

Zhen Li said:
It does take effect everywhere. Jinen honi, or natural working, occurs in this world upon the confluence of conditions, a teacher, Amitābha's light, and deep listening/reflection. Again, the Buddha is not a god or omnipotent saviour who can play with humans like toys. That is just an incorrect premise that doesn't belong in Buddhist thought.

Astus wrote:
Then such natural working makes no difference, since beings still have to come to the required level themselves where any interaction with a buddha is possible.

Zhen Li said:
By saying the consummation of awakening is only on the side of Buddha-nature simply means that the dualistic pṛthagjana is not a thing that transforms into something else. Awakening = bodhi. It is on the side of buddha-nature because it is innately awakened.

Astus wrote:
Buddha-nature, since it is innate, is already present in all beings. That is exactly why ordinary beings have to cultivate the way themselves in order to be able to discover buddha-nature.

'Seeing that sentient beings’ afflictions
Conceal their Buddha store,
I teach them how to remove their afflictions
And acquire the overall wisdom-knowledge.'
( https://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra50.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 25th, 2022 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Firstly, one can open the curtains by oneself—this is birth by the 19th and 20th vows.

Astus wrote:
It was not raised regarding the causes of birth but the causes of awakening, although it might be applied to both cases.

Zhen Li said:
As for the case of birth by the 18th vow, they are conceived of as being opened by the Buddha because faith (Shinjin) is the mind of the Buddha that is bestowed on beings. Since faith is the cause for birth, the curtains are opened by the Buddha.

Astus wrote:
If it were bestowed by the Buddha then all should have faith, but that's not the case.

Zhen Li said:
One must be open to receiving faith, however. So the analogy breaks down there.

Astus wrote:
The primary and only problem is with the claim that something (no matter what) is done by a buddha to another being's karma or mind without the active participation of said being is that such an act of one sided influence would need to apply to everyone already. So, if a buddha can make beings be born in Sukhavati, then all should be born there and not in other realms. If a buddha can make beings free from afflictions, then all should already be free from them. And so on.

Zhen Li said:
As for receptiveness, it comes about by 1. karmic conditions, 2. encountering a good teacher, and 3. Amitābha's light (which is always shining). With the conjunction of 1 and 2 alone, if one listens without reflection, or recites the Nembutsu out of self power blindly, no faith will result. One must reflect on the Primal Vow and understand its significance for one's life. In reflection, from the ultimate perspective, one can see 1 and 2 as manifestations of the Buddha's compassionate working—there don't exist coincidences in the Dharma.

Astus wrote:
That explanation defeats itself by saying that actually all three conditions are by 'the Buddha's compassionate working', so everyone should already be receptive. Unless you leave reflection and reciting out of self-power up to the being, in which case there are not three but at least four conditions, out of which three are already universally provided by a buddha, and only reflection and self-power recitation are something a buddha does not influence for some reason. But if those two conditions are not the result of karma, then where do they come from?

Zhen Li said:
beings naturally come to abide in suchness and receive the mind of faith.

Astus wrote:
What do you mean by naturally? Without any cause whatsoever? Or is it again by the Buddha's power? If it's by the Buddha's power then why can that power not take effect outside Sukhavati? After all, Amitabha's light reaches everywhere.

Zhen Li said:
But the consummation of awakening is still only on the side of buddha-nature.

Astus wrote:
Buddha-nature needs no awakening, so why would it do anything for achieving it? And if it can do something, why not do it already before birth in Sukhavati?

Zhen Li said:
Above all, understanding this working is not necessary for birth or liberation—all this talking when one can be practising Nembutsu is, ultimately, counterproductive. But if I can help elucidate these matters in some way, I am happy to assist.

Astus wrote:
It is not counterproductive if it assists in reciting the name. Your happy assistance is appreciated.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
As for why there are still deluded beings left—going back to the analogy before, not all beings choose to open the curtain.

Astus wrote:
Let's stick with that analogy then.

A little review of previous discussions:
You originally mentioned it https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=639618#p639618, to what I https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=639625#p639625 that 'the light will not come into the room unless one opens the curtains. That opening of the curtains is done by oneself, that is removing the afflictions. This purification is what is missing from the explanation regarding immediate buddhahood upon birth.'
Then for some reason you https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=639632#p639632 that beings don't move the curtain, contrary what you said before: 'So, from the side of awakening, it is realised very much that in fact the curtains are actually opened by the Buddha. The appearance of needing to open is only something manifest to our unawakened cognition.' ... 'To express it in conventional terms, then, the weight of our karmic evil is so heavy that we can never attain buddhahood. But the infinitude of Amitābha is such that his direction of merit can always bring us to birth.'
To that was a little mix up about conventional and ultimate where you https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=639649#p639649 that: 'The moving is a conventional perspective. From the conventional perspective the fact that there is no moving will appear to be removal. '

Now back to the point of beings choosing to open the curtain or not. If there is a choice, there is an act of opening on the side of beings, then it is not on the side of any buddha, no buddha does that for the beings, therefore it is not by the power of any buddha. Otherwise, if it is by a buddha, then all curtains should already be open. If you accept that beings do have a choice and they do need to act, then the possibility of liberation forced on others is excluded and everyone has to actually walk the path until awakening.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Malcolm said:
The kindest thing is to help them eliminate clinging from the root in this life, then they do not have to wait for some putative liberation later on.

Astus wrote:
“I will move the Western [Paradise] for you in an instant, so you will be able to see it right in front of you. ... the very form-bodies of people in this world are the city walls [of the Pure Land]. Your eyes, ears, nose, and tongue are the gates [of the Pure Land]. Externally, you have five gates, and within is the gate of the sensory mind. The mind is the ground, and the nature is the king. The king resides on the mind-ground, and the nature exists just as a king exists. When the nature goes, the king is absent.When the nature is present, the body and mind continue. When the nature departs, the body disintegrates. ‘Buddha’ acts within the nature—don’t look for it outside your bodies! When one is deluded as to the self-nature, one is a sentient being, but when one realizes the self-nature, one is a buddha. ... By illuminating the self-nature within, the three poisons are eliminated, and all the transgressions [leading to] the hells are dissolved in an instant. Clearly penetrating within and without, it is no different from the Western [Paradise]. If you do not cultivate in this fashion, how could you ever arrive there?”
(Platform Sutra, ch 4, BDK ed, p 39-40)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Conventionally, one is born in the Pure Land through the Primal Vow. After that, the innate awakening is realised.

Astus wrote:
The issue is that such a realisation cannot be provided by any vow of another being.

Zhen Li said:
Both birth and gradual awakening are done by the heavy lifting. This is what my quotes illustrated quite clearly.

Astus wrote:
What they illustrate is that beings are originally buddhas, not that buddhas can do the awakening in lieu of deluded beings. If they could there would already be no deluded beings left.

Zhen Li said:
The prior quote shows that when they train, it is through the buddha's power as well.

Astus wrote:
If that were so why don't all beings train? What is it that a buddha's power cannot fix?

Zhen Li said:
It's explicit in Shinran, let alone Vasubandhu, Tanluan, and Shandao. It is also expressed by other of Honen's disciples. So, it is reasonable to assume that Honen held this view too.

Astus wrote:
Since only one branch of Shinshu interpret it like you do it shows that it's not really that explicit.

Zhen Li said:
Underlying tendencies do not come to fruition in Sukhāvatī. This is how karmic obstacles are eliminated—they simply lie dormant until nirvāṇa is attained, so it is as if they are not there.

Astus wrote:
The main question is: how is nirvana attained if not by the standard cultivation of the holy path by each being born in the Pure Land?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
You are mixing conventional and ultimate.

Astus wrote:
The ultimate is emptiness where talk of liberation is meaningless. The conventional is where liberation can happen, but to say that there is no cause for liberation is tantamount to denying it ever happening. So either there have to be conventional causes and conditions, or there is no liberation to talk of.

Zhen Li said:
This is simply a question of soteriological realism. In the Pure Land tradition it is admitted that Buddhahood is impossible by the power of the ordinary being, the conventional level. Awakening is always on the side of Buddha Nature.

Astus wrote:
As above, without awakening on the conventional level there is no awakening at all.

Zhen Li said:
Buddhas and bodhisattvas are ultimately inactive. Their appearance of action and cultivation is what happens when their activity comes in contact with our limited minds.

Astus wrote:
Ultimately what activity or inactivity to differentiate for anyone or anything? None. Therefore it is an impossibility that there is contact, since contact means conditionality and conventionality.

Zhen Li said:
So, from the side of awakening, it is realised very much that in fact the curtains are actually opened by the Buddha. The appearance of needing to open is only something manifest to our unawakened cognition.

Astus wrote:
From the side of awakening there is no curtain, so how could there be a moving of it? Therefore no buddha can move it for anyone. That's why it's left to each being to do it on their own.

Zhen Li said:
The Buddha can and does do heavy lifting for ordinary beings, that is entirely within the orbit of Mahāyāna buddhology. This doesn't mean that there is no choice on the part of the practitioner, and it doesn't mean that things won't appear to be done out of their own power prior to awakening.

Astus wrote:
What heavy lifting? Since there are beings in samsara clearly no buddha could ever save them. And if beings have to arrive at awakening to benefit from the activities of the buddhas, then first all the actual purification of the mind has been done already by the being alone, and then there is no further need of any help from any buddha after awakening.
This is illustrated very well by your quote:
Likewise the Aṣṭasāhasrika: Whatever, Venerable Sariputra, the Lord’s Disciples teach, all that is to be known as the Tathagata’s work.  For in the dharma demonstrated by the Tathagata they train themselves, they realise its true nature, they hold it in mind. Thereafter nothing that they teach contradicts the true nature of dharma. It is just an outpouring of the Tathagata's demonstration of dharma.
That is, first 'they train themselves, they realise its true nature, they hold it in mind' and 'Thereafter nothing that they teach contradicts the true nature of dharma.' The being has to do the purification, and only after that there is harmonisation between the being and the buddha.

Zhen Li said:
Understanding and teaching are on the side of the Tathāgata, the sentient being, the pṛthagjana, is a limited conduit which we imagine to be independently liberating itself, but all such attempts are futile.

Astus wrote:
If realisation were on the side of the tathagata, then it would mean no being ever gains liberation, or all should be already awakened. Furthermore, a tathagata needs no realisation, only ordinary beings do.

Zhen Li said:
But the orthodox Nishi Hongwanji position is of Nirvāṇa upon birth.

Astus wrote:
So it's not even a view shared by all Shinshu adherents, much less others outside the followers of Shinran. Do you know perhaps who established this doctrine of nirvana upon birth at the Honganji-ha?

Zhen Li said:
In truth, they are one with suchness. Once a being is there, they no longer have adverse conditions to overcome, so they immediately attian buddhahood. This is not a question of practice or non-practice, purification or non-purification. It is simply a question of suchness and buddha-nature.

Astus wrote:
Everything is already such, it doesn't make anyone awakened. Absence of adverse conditions is not a sufficient cause of liberation, because that in itself does not remove any underlying tendencies.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
It is uncaused.

Astus wrote:
To say that there is no cause for liberation means that it can never happen, everyone is eternally without any freedom from suffering.

Zhen Li said:
Amitābha's light is the wisdom that always dispells delusion, in all space and time. That is what it is saying. Why are we deluded then? Amitābha is not the cause of delusion, his light is there and it is always ready to dispell our delusion, but we and our habitual conditions are the originators of our delusion that has no discernable beginning.
Let's put it in different words. The sunlight is always shining on your window, but the curtains are open or closed by your own choosing. Whatever darkness there is, inside or outside your room, is always dispelled by the sunlight without exception. But it won't come into your room unless you open the curtains.

Astus wrote:
Then Amitabha's light is very much ineffective, since delusion is exactly the obscuration. Since the sun cannot move the curtain, the light cannot eliminate the hindrances of liberation. So, just as the https://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra50.html teaches, the main requirement to attain buddha nature is removing the afflictions. It is not enough to have the nature of a buddha, that in and of itself does not liberate anyone. Therefore, just as you write, the light will not come into the room unless one opens the curtains. That opening of the curtains is done by oneself, that is removing the afflictions. This purification is what is missing from the explanation regarding immediate buddhahood upon birth.

Zhen Li said:
What Honen doesn't talk about in his extant works is the distinction between birth with immediate attainment of nirvāṇa and birth with gradual attainment of nirvāṇa.

Astus wrote:
Because such a distinction does not exist in Jodoshu, or in Chinese Pure Land Buddhism, or in other Buddhist schools. Looks like an exclusively Shinshu idea that lacks an explanation for it.

Zhen Li said:
But he quotes Shandao who writes about this—so he was familiar with and did not contradict the idea.

Astus wrote:
Not really. That was the only quote in the Senchakushu from Shandao that only resembles the idea, but does not actually say so.

Zhen Li said:
Of course it is. That is why you can only be born there through the Buddha's power, and not by self power practice. Hence: "it is difficult to be reborn there by means of the Miscellaneous Good Practices that correspond to people’s varying capacities."

Astus wrote:
Being difficult and being impossible are not the same. Also, if it were meant that Sukhavati was literally nirvana, then any statement regarding birth there would have been meaningless.

Zhen Li said:
It is a non-discriminatory birth by realisation of Buddha-Nature that one directly realises unconditioned nirvāṇa.

Astus wrote:
Not discriminated by whom? The ordinary being who is born cannot do it yet. The noble beings are already without any discrimination. So what is a 'non-discriminatory birth'? If it can happen by the realisation of buddha nature, then the cause of such a birth is awakening and not the primary vow, so it is no different from the holy path.

Zhen Li said:
This is referring to the transformed land. Any birth with manifestational appearance is birth in the transformed land, and it is preceded by a description of self power Nembutsu.

Astus wrote:
That is not supported by the quote itself, since it talks of birth in the Pure Land that is the 'world of unconditioned nirvana', where 'they will be seated on these golden lotus pedestals', and 'enter into the Stage of the Three Wisdoms'. So such a distinction between lands is not found in that quote. What it explicitly says is that those born in Sukhavati cultivate the bodhisattva path.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 5:02 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Why should anyone have desires in the Pure Land? The conditions that give rise to the fruition of those seeds are simply not present.
Frankly, you are far overstating what "a little calming meditation" does. If a little bit of calming meditation provided the same conditions as Sukhāvatī, there would be no point for the Mahāyāna vaipulya sutra to be taught.

Astus wrote:
When the mind is calm and focused there is also no condition to give rise to craving, anger, or confusion, that's also why it's optimal for insight and why sometimes various absorptions can also be called liberation of a termporary type. The reason I mentioned it, however, was simply to point out that just because no disturbing emotions are present one does not automatically gain wisdom.

Zhen Li said:
Actually it does. From Sanghavarman's translation: With my divine power I will display great light,
Illuminating the worlds without limit,
And dispel the darkness of the three defilements;
Thus I will deliver all beings from misery.

Astus wrote:
Still beings are lost in delusion, so actually no defilements are eliminated by it. Therefore the cause of liberation cannot be that light. What is the cause then?

Zhen Li said:
You are missing the point about transformed birth. Shinran and Rennyo still hold that cultivation is necessary after birth for those born in the transformed land. Again, different teaching for a different audience.

Astus wrote:
It does not fit what Honen wrote. In both works (An Outline of Nembutsu, Dialogue on the Essentials of Nembutsu) Honen talks of attaining birth through the right cultivation of nembutsu ( 'attain birth in the Pure Land through nembutsu while relying on the essential vow' & 'It should be known that his essential vow was not made in vain. If sentient beings recite his name, they will, with certainty, attain birth in the Pure Land.' - passages preceding the description of cultivation of the holy path after birth in those two texts). There is no such distinction made by him that you refer to, as if it were possible to become buddha without due causes.

Zhen Li said:
Frankly, Honen many times in the Senchakushu quotes Shandao's passages on birth being birth into the land that is the same as nirvāṇa, and equating sukhāvatī with the unconditioned nirvāṇa.

Astus wrote:
I have found one such quote (BDK ed, p 119-120):

'Because [the Land of] Supreme Bliss is the world of unconditioned nirvana, it is difficult to be reborn there by means of the Miscellaneous Good Practices that correspond to people’s varying capacities. That is why the Tathagata chose the needed Dharma and taught that one should think solely and wholeheartedly on Amida Buddha. One should do this for seven days and seven nights with no break in attention. When undertaking longer periods of practice, one should do this even more. Just as their lives are about to end, a multitude of Holy Beings bearing lotus pedestals with them i7b will appear to such people. With their bodies and minds exulting, they will be seated on these golden lotus pedestals, and when thus seated, they will immediately gain insight into the unproduced [quality of all things]. In an instant, they will be welcomed and be led before the Buddha himself. Then the Dharma’s friends will vie with one another to clothe them in Dharma robes. At that time they will realize the Stage of Non-Retrogression and enter into the Stage of the Three Wisdoms.'

Saying that it is the world of the unconditioned nirvana is not the same as being nirvana. The last sentence is the most telling, since besides the 'usual' mention of non-retrogression there is the 'three wisdoms' ( https://www2.buddhistdoor.net/dictionary/details/%E4%B8%89%E8%B3%A2, lit. https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/172 ), and that refers to the forty stages of the bodhisattva path before the ten bhumis. In other words, they are not even arya-bodhisattvas, much less buddhas.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Malcolm said:
It does not even actually transfer (if it did, it would be compounded, impermanent).

Astus wrote:
Since it was not claimed to be the cause of liberation I thought it an irrelevant issue. But it's still nice you mentioned it.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Birth doesn't create the wisdom, it's inherent in liberation which is original.

Astus wrote:
Original awakening is not the same as actualised awakening. The question still is: how can a being be moved from one to the other?

Zhen Li said:
birth brings about liberation

Astus wrote:
How?

Zhen Li said:
The Pure Land has no conditions to bring karmic seeds to fruition.

Astus wrote:
A little calming meditation provides the same conditions. It still does not make one permanently free from craving and clinging.

Zhen Li said:
The Buddha's light of wisdom emerges (see above) and directly eliminates the darkness of delusion.

Astus wrote:
Amitabha's light has no limits, so it should eliminate darkness everywhere, but it does not.

Zhen Li said:
And Shinran and Rennyo also encouraged simply saying the Nembutsu.

Astus wrote:
The point was not the method but the need for cultivation after birth.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 23rd, 2022 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
It's a hongaku (original awakening) kind of liberation.

Astus wrote:
The assumption of buddha nature makes no difference in the need to purify the mind before its nature becomes manifest.

Zhen Li said:
The non-practice practice means that stages and levels are transcended.

Astus wrote:
There is no problem with going to full 'sudden awakening, sudden practice' ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T48n2008_p0358c28 ). At the same time, while some direct disciples of Shakyamuni attained realisation very quickly, others did not. Therefore Huineng said, 'The Dharma is without sudden and gradual; it is people that are clever or dull, therefore the names sudden and gradual.' (Platform Sutra, ch 8, BDK ed, p 72)

Zhen Li said:
It is explained thoroughly how bodhisattva conduct is truly beyond the dualities of stages and gradations, and is, in fact, contiguous with the dharmakāya of the buddha.

Astus wrote:
That is the common Mahayana understanding, while at the same time there are stages and gradations.

'Sariputra: If, venerable Subhuti, the Bodhisattva is a non-production and also the dharmas which constitute him, and also the state of all-knowledge, and also the dharmas which constitute it, and also the common people, and also the dharmas which constitute them, -then, surely, the state of all-knowledge is reached by a Bodhisattva without any exertion?
Subhuti: I do not wish for the attainment of an unproduced dharma, nor reunion with one. Further, does one attain an unproduced attainment though unproduced dharma?
Sariputra: Is then an unproduced attainment attained through an unproduced dharma, or through a produced dharma?
Subhuti: Is then an unproduced dharma produced, or is it unproduced?
Sariputra: Is then production a dharma which is a non-production, or is non-production dharma which is production?
Subhuti: To talk of a production as a non-production-dharma is not intelligible.
Sariputra: To talk of non-production is also not intelligible.
Subhuti: Non-production is just talk. Non-production just appears before the mind’s eye. Non-production is just a flash in the mind. Absolutely it is nothing more than that.'
(PP8K, 1.6, tr Conze)

'Subhuti: If that is so, how can a Bodhisattva arrive, without an increase in perfect wisdom, at the full attainment of enlightenment, how can he know full enlightenment?
The Lord: In actual fact a Bodhisattva who courses in perfect wisdom neither increases or decreases. Just as perfect wisdom is empty, without increase or decrease, just so also a Bodhisattva is empty, without increase or decrease. It is because of this fact, - i.e. that just as perfect wisdom is empty, without increase or decrease, - that a Bodhisattva arrives at the full attainment of enlightenment, and thus knows full enlightenment.'
(PP8K, 22.4, tr Conze)

Zhen Li said:
This realisation is uncaused because it is original.

Astus wrote:
If it were uncaused, it could never occur. If realisation never occurs, then there is no end to suffering.

Zhen Li said:
There are teachings of instant and gradual awakening. Pure Land is a path of instant, not gradual, awakening.

Astus wrote:
One can talk of instant awakening for an unlimited amount of time, it's the listener that will either comprehend it or not. Furthermore, since even Shakyamuni couldn't make everyone suddenly awakened, it should be clear that there is no such wondrous doctrine or method. Hence it still remains very much unexplained how could all become immediately buddhas at birth.

Zhen Li said:
It is not generating wisdom.

Astus wrote:
If birth gives no wisdom, it sure cannot give liberation.

Zhen Li said:
No, I am not saying that. Vasubandhu and Shandao talk about the merit transference from Dharmākara's vows of birth, and return to this world to aid beings (Oso and Genso Eko).

Astus wrote:
So merit is of no help in immediately transforming ordinary beings to buddhas.

Zhen Li said:
Karmic bonds are severed at the end of one's life.

Astus wrote:
By what? Merit transference does not eliminate karma. Wisdom is not produced to cut off afflictions. What could do it then?

Zhen Li said:
Pure Land practice is easy, instant, and takes one lifetime.

Astus wrote:
That's Pure Land practice in this life, but it does not liberate anyone in this life.

Zhen Li said:
Honen's extant writings do not contradict this idea

Astus wrote:
I have https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=639532#p639532 two quotes directly from Honen and one summary from a Jodoshu site that all show Honen did teach engaging the holy path after birth through nenbutsu.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Mirror said:
Astus what Zhen Li describes is a Jōdo Shinshū perspective. Chinese Pure Land Buddhism doesn't have such concept of being spontaneously liberated just by being born in Sukhavati (as far as I know).

Astus wrote:
Thank you. Apparently not even Honen had such a view.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
A Buddha cannot will a being into awakening, but he can transfer merit to allow us to be born in Sukhāvatī if we are willing to accept it.

Astus wrote:
That explains birth through other power. It does not explain awakening immediately at birth, i.e. liberation without cultivation.

Zhen Li said:
The only pure cause is the Buddha's mind. Thus, receiving Shinjin is understood to be partaking in the Buddha's mind. The connection is made in this life, and its full realisation is attained through birth.

Astus wrote:
The cause of birth is explained by faith and the transference of merit, but the cause of realisation is not explained by birth at all.

Zhen Li said:
While in this world we are still in the oil, but upon death we become one with the flame.

Astus wrote:
It's explained in many sutras and treatises how ignorance is eliminated by wisdom. How can birth generate wisdom?

Zhen Li said:
So, there is no ordinary self who can attain awakening, but Buddha Nature is realised with the burning up of the ordinary/saṃsāric self.

Astus wrote:
How would ordinary self be burnt away by birth?

Zhen Li said:
There is no all-powerful Buddha reaching into this reality and shaking us awake out of the slumber of saṃsāra while within saṃsāra, but there is a Buddha who transfers merits for this to occur upon our birth.

Astus wrote:
Do you say that merit transference can generate not only birth but also awakening?

Zhen Li said:
That is just not how saṃsāra and liberation works, and this is why no amount of satoris or kenshos is going to give someone the 32 marks in this life.

Astus wrote:
How samsara and the path to liberation works has been explained many times, but the idea that deluded beings can immediately turn into buddhas upon birth in Sukhavati seems to very much contradict those teachings on the path to liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 7:56 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
On the condition that nirvāṇa is attained upon birth for those with Shinjin, birth is a given in the premises. If you rather attained nirvāṇa here and now, there would be no need for birth in the vows of Dharmākara. But since assured birth is the way by which we easily cut off the six realms, we attain non-retrogression in this life, and full nirvāṇa upon birth.

Astus wrote:
My question is: why the need for birth if a buddha can make beings awakened out of his own volition without the need for a being to do anything, apart maybe for wishing so?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 6:11 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
The fulfilled land or true and filfilled land (真実報土) is the dharmakāya, the transformed land (方便化土) is that of the saṃbhogakāya.

Astus wrote:
What about the palaces, trees, bodies of water, etc. in the Pure Land? Are they somehow equated with the dharmakaya? Or is it that there is no land at all where one can be born? If the former, then it is a very different view of the dharmakaya than what is found in Mahayana usually. If the latter, then why the need to die first?

Zhen Li said:
But actually, Nirvana is attained upon birth.
This is partially because means and end are ultimately part of the same essence. But since we are ordinary beings, we can only interact with it by an expedient.

Astus wrote:
Same as above, if nirvana is attained immediately upon birth without any cultivation of the paramitas, why the need for birth in the first place?

Zhen Li said:
You say "just because they are born in Sukhavati" as if that is not itself an attainment that takes the coming about of the right causes and conditions.
This is the claim of the sutra, and has been the claim of the Pure Land tradition for over a millenium.

Astus wrote:
The standard claim is that one is born in Sukhavati to then engage in the bodhisattva activities required for buddhahood.

'It is not that these acts are not effective. It is simply that it is too difficult for mortals in the period of the decline of the Dharma to fulfill the practice of holding and reciting the sutras. Therefore, they should first attain birth in the Pure Land through nembutsu while relying on the essential vow, be blessed to encounter Tathāgata Amida, Bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara, and Bodhisattva Mahāsthāmaprāpta there, study various holy teachings, and then realize enlightenment.'
(An Outline of Nenbutsu, in The Promise of Amida, p 144)

'Strive to attain birth expeditiously in the Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss, and once there with Amida Buddha and Bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara as mentors, try to learn and internalize the subtle principle of all holy teachings: the school of the realization of enlightenment through ascertainment of the profound principle of absoluteness and the equality of the ultimate reality taught in the Lotus Sutra, the concept of the ultimate principle of emptiness presented in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra, and the theory of realization of buddhahood in your present body in the Shingon school.'
(Dialogue on the Essentials of Nembutsu, in The Promise of Amida, p 213)

See also this summary on https://web.archive.org/web/20060101052628/http://jsri.jp/english/honen/teachings/senchaku/process.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 22nd, 2022 at 3:03 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Because training is a dualistic conception and birth in the fulfilled land is beyond dualities.

Astus wrote:
Why would it be beyond dualities? The sambhogakaya ('fulfilled body' 報身) is within dualities in its functions, so its land (報土) should be as well, otherwise it'd be the dharmakaya and the dharmadhatu of no birth.

Zhen Li said:
For this reason, Buddha Nature appears to us as Other Power until it is directly realised. As the Nirvāṇa Sūtra puts it, bodhisattvas never fully see Buddha Nature until the attainment of Buddhahood itself, even those on the 10th bhūmi see it like birds in the corner of one's eye: one isn't sure whether they might be a crane or some other bird.

Astus wrote:
So it is not how it was phrased above that one realises one's true nature when abandoning self-power, since only buddhas realise that.

Zhen Li said:
In essence, the Primal Vow is made for evil beings like us, who, though aspiring to do good, out of karmic habit have no other destiny than Avici hell. We need only rely on the Nembutsu, and thereby leap crosswise across the six realms and assuredly attain non-retrogression and birth in Sukhāvatī.

Astus wrote:
That's not been the issue here, but rather the assumption that such evil beings transform into buddhas immediately out of no effort on their own just because they are born in Sukhavati.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 7:58 PM
Title: Re: Four transmissions in Kagyu mahamudra
Content:
shagrath said:
If Mahamudra also has both ka dag and lhun grub aspects, how come there is no thod rgal in tradition?

Astus wrote:
Togal is a technique, kadak and lhundrup are qualities of the nature of mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 7:12 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
The point in Pure Land is that its power is manifested through Dharmākara's vows and brings people to a point where they can realise it themselves. Buddhānubhāvena (by the Buddha's power) is how many people achieve all sorts of things in the sūtra literature—the realisation, however, is for themselves alone and not forced upon them by the Buddha.

Astus wrote:
In that case why wouldn't Sukhavati be a so called 'training ground'? It provides an optimal state of existence for beings to attain awakening.

Zhen Li said:
To overcome reliance on self power is to directly see one's true nature.

Astus wrote:
Then no reason to talk of any other power, since, as you stated above: 'everyone is liberated when they realise Buddha Nature'.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 20th, 2022 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
It means that the practice is fulfilled by the Buddha's power, which is the innate nature of all beings, rather than the power of a limited being that relates to their illusory attributes like the skandhas.

Astus wrote:
Since all have the Buddha's power as the innate nature, but it makes no difference in everyone's being trapped in birth and death, it is not a power that can liberate anyone.

Zhen Li said:
Skilful means are necessary for limited beings to grasp the path. Otherwise the Dharma dispensation would just start and end with the perfection of wisdom and no one would be any the wiser.

Astus wrote:
Consequently it's not possible to just transform another being into an awakened one. Each has to work on their own liberation.

Zhen Li said:
Ultimately, all attain liberation through "other power."

Astus wrote:
If by ultimately you mean on the level of ultimate truth, then there is neither liberation nor other to talk of. If you mean in the end, then what's the purpose of cultivating the path?

Zhen Li said:
Upon birth they will assuredly realise the Dharma body.

Astus wrote:
There is a big difference between eventually realising through their own efforts, or realising it exclusively through the influence of somebody else.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 19th, 2022 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
As for the many vows, they actually all speak to this one fact—assurance of nirvāṇa, non-retrogression, attainment of all the powers and 32 marks, etc. There are no limitations or wants of beings upon birth.

Astus wrote:
How so? If upon birth one becomes a buddha, then talk of humans and gods, various abilities given to them, plus the qualities of the land itself are quite irrelevant and rather limited compared to a buddha's attributes.

Zhen Li said:
As for attaining liberation on their own—this is where Pure Land as a Buddha-Nature practice comes into play.

Astus wrote:
What does 'Buddha-Nature practice' mean?

Zhen Li said:
If we are thinking of things dualistically from the perspective of the Saha world, yes, there are stages and levels to birth and there are individual beings and selves—these cease to be of relevance or reality upon the fulfilment of birth.

Astus wrote:
If they were irrelevant, then why talk of them?

Zhen Li said:
Besides, questioning this matter of self-liberation as being a "basic doctrine," actually the Mahāyāna sūtras frequently use the language of liberating other beings—the share of agency involved in fulfilling this is not thereby necessarily 100% one way or the other, and again, this only makes sense from a dualistic perspective.

Astus wrote:
Shakyamuni could not simply wish others to become even believers, much less liberated. On the contrary, he urged people to follow the teachings and put them into practice. Similarly, Lokesvararaja could not transform Dharmakara into a buddha, so he cultivated the paramitas for innumerable aeons.
Liberating beings means guiding them, providing them with the correct teachings, and it is for that reason that a bodhisattva masters all sorts of skilful means. Otherwise there should be only one method to master: wishing beings into buddhas. And even that one power could be granted by other buddhas.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 19th, 2022 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: What does "kido" mean? (I'm pretty sure it does not mean "energy way")
Content:
curtstein said:
The article cited by astus claims that Buddhists only started using this term in modern times due to the influences of individualism, Christianity, and capitalism.

Astus wrote:
Prayer ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/search/?q=%E7%A5%88%E7%A6%B1&lang=en ) appears a few times, for instance as praying to gods ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T08n0261_p0867c03 ) for longevity; to slaughter sheep as prayer ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T16n0682_p0760a19 ); and prayer in a god's temple ( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T21n1299_p0389b03 ). I assume the post meant the more widespread use of the word for all sorts of religious activities.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 19th, 2022 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: What does "kido" mean? (I'm pretty sure it does not mean "energy way")
Content:
curtstein said:
I think it might come as a surprise to many western Buddhists to realize that "chanting" is at least in some sense really "praying"!

Astus wrote:
According to https://blog.daum.net/511-33/12370671 the word entered Korean Buddhism in the modern times from Christianity. http://www.ibulgyo.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=206999 explains how Buddhist prayer (bulgyoi gido 불교의 기도) is unlike other religions. And http://www.beopbo.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=203416 about how to pray mentions various occasions, like meal prayer (sigsa gidomun 식사기도문; also calls it an offering gatha: gong yang ge 공양게 供養偈), birthday prayer (saeng-ilchugha gidomun 생일축하 기도문),  school exam prayer (siheom gido 시험기도), also mentions dharani prayer (dalani gido  다라니기도) and that reciting a buddha's or bodhisattva's name as an easy form of prayer.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Contra a Popular Misconception: The Pure Land is not a Bodhisattva "Training Ground"
Content:
Zhen Li said:
It occurred to me that it is often claimed that the Pure Land is a training ground or school for bodhisattvas. I think this explanation helps people to overcome the misconception that the Pure Land is a paradise or heaven. As a skilful means that is fine, but the Pure Land scriptures do not support that claim.

Astus wrote:
If, as you seem to suggest, birth in Sukhavati would magically turn beings into buddhas, then all the many vows would be meaningless, plus it would defy the basic doctrine that everyone has to attain liberation on their own.

Zhen Li said:
28. sacenme bhagavan bodhiprāptasya tatra buddhakṣetre kasyacitsattvasyoddeśo vā svādhyāyo vā kartavyaḥ syāt, na te sarve pratisaṃvitprāptā bhaveyuḥ, mā tāvadahamanuttarāṃ samyaksaṃbodhimabhisaṃbudhyeyam.

If, O Bhagavān, having attained bodhi, instruction or learning should have to be done by any being in that buddha land, and they should not all be possessed of perfect and complete knowledge, then may I not fully awaken to anuttara-samyak-saṃbodhi.

Astus wrote:
It is not 'perfect and complete knowledge', as https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe49/sbe4924.htm translated it. Pratisaṃvid is unhindered/analytical knowledge and it has four types, as given in the https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Dharma-Sangraha/Dharmas-041-060.htm#toc10 and explained in the https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225795.html.

Saṃghavarman: 設我得佛，國中菩薩智慧辯才若可限量者，不取正覺。( https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T12n0360_p0268c05 )
In Inagaki's http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/sutra_of_immeasurable_life.html#div-7 (The Three Pure Land Sutras, BDK ed, p 16):
'30. If, when I attain buddhahood, the wisdom and eloquence of bodhisattvas in my land should be limited, may I not attain perfect enlightenment.'


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 18th, 2022 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: What does "kido" mean? (I'm pretty sure it does not mean "energy way")
Content:
curtstein said:
But I am pretty sure that the actual Hanja for 기도 is 祈禱, which means something like "pray" or even "worship".

Astus wrote:
That seems to be the correct reading. Here are some monasteries providing information on their regular prayers (jeong-gi/sangsi gido 정기/상시 기도): http://www.doseonsa.org/ceremony/pray.asp, http://www.jinkwansa.org/html/?pCode=507&cate=EV01&cate2=AL02, http://www.bongeunsa.org:90/common/common.do?jsp_path=user/event/prayerAbove.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 16th, 2022 at 3:05 PM
Title: Re: Pacifying the mind
Content:
Astus wrote:
"But how could one [even] gain the ability to know that it is no-mind [that sees, hears, feels, and knows]?"
"Just try to find out in every detail: What appearance does mind have? And if it can be apprehended: is [what is apprehended] mind or not? Is [mind] inside or outside, or somewhere in between? As long as one looks for mind in these three locations, one's search will end in failure. Indeed, searching it anywhere will end in failure. That's exactly why it is known as no-mind."
(Treatise on No-Mind 無心論, tr Urs App)

Another question: "Teach me, your disciple, to quiet mind."
Answer: "Bring your mind here and I will quiet it for you." 
Also: "Just quiet my mind for me!" 
Answer: "This is like asking a craftsman to cut out a garment. When the craftsman obtains your silk, then he can for the first time set his cutting tool to work. At the outset, without having seen the silk, how could he have cut out the pattern from space for you? Since you are unable to present your mind to me, I don't know what mind I shall quiet for you. I certainly am unable to quiet space!"
(The Bodhidharma Anthology, p 42)

'When practitioners have distracted, false thoughts during meditation, their minds cannot be at peace. Many practitioners think that trying to pacify the mind is necessary. Therefore, when they hear about a Zen master, they immediately set out on their way to look for a method. If they study this method or that method to pacify their minds, this is only using hot to treat cold or using bright to erase darkness. All these dualisms are unreal and false symptoms. Bodhidharma did not teach that way. He simply said, “Bring me your mind and I will pacify it.” When one looks directly at the anxious mind, it will disappear, leaving no trace. Hui-Ke had to say, “I cannot find it.” Bodhidharma only had to reply, “There, I have pacified your mind for you.” Hui-ke right away saw the Way. 
For a long time now, we have believed that the agitated, thinking mind is real. However, if we look inside we will find no trace of the thinking mind and will then know it is empty of ownbeing. When we know it is empty, our thoughts no longer grab our attention and so will not disturb us. When thoughts arise, if we do not follow them, our minds will be calm. Following thoughts, thinking of this or that, never stopping, our minds cannot be at peace. The moment that a thought arises, if we know that it is empty and do not follow it, it will disappear by itself. This is a wonderful way for pacifying the mind. This way does not rely on any method or form.
Also, if we look directly at the false thoughts, they will disperse like clouds or smoke. This is “directly pointing at the mind,” not relying on any means. If we all practiced in this manner, no one would be unwise enough to run after their thoughts, trying to destroy illusions. We only need to know that thoughts are false and not follow them. This is the essence of Bodhidharma’s pacification of mind.'
(Keys to Buddhism by Thich Thanh Tu, p 51-52)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 15th, 2022 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Refining a Meditative Practice
Content:
Parsifal said:
However, I cannot but be tempted to another meditation scheme to make me mentally more affluent and stabler due to still my feeling like adhering to my ego. To help such myself, I want to try something even only a little bit useful.

Astus wrote:
If zazen is insufficient, then it's good to first be clear about what is missing for you. There are some more extensive classical teachings on zazen that address various difficulties in one's practice, like those of https://antaiji.org/en/classics/english-zazen-yojinki/ and https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/leaflet/heartofzen/index.html. You may also look into traditional meditation manuals that discuss various hindrances and their antidotes, like https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/the-sutra-on-the-concentration-of-sitting-meditation/ and the http://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/ebm_book_page.htm.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 14th, 2022 at 7:35 PM
Title: Re: Requesting help understanding Buddhism proof regarding existence of consciousness outside brain
Content:
Astus wrote:
Verification in Buddhism is a subjective process, not objective. Is the thought of a glass of water physical like a glass of water or not? It is fairly easy to see for oneself. As for the ontological idea of there being a completely distinct immaterial consciousness, that's a misconception and is refuted by the doctrine of dependent origination.

"Mendicant, if you have the view that the soul and the body are the same thing, there is no living of the spiritual life. If you have the view that the soul and the body are different things, there is no living of the spiritual life. Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One teaches by the middle way: ‘Rebirth is a condition for old age and death.’ ... ‘Ignorance is a condition for choices.’"
( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/sujato )

'The living of the holy life (brahmacariyavāsa) is the living of the noble path. One who holds the view “the soul and the body are the same” (taṁ jīvaṁ taṁ sarīraṁ) holds that the soul and the body are annihilated together (at death). For one who holds this, the annihilationist view follows, for he holds that “a being is annihilated.” Now this noble path arises to stop and eradicate the round of existence. But on the annihilationist view the round ceases even without the development of the path, and thus the development of the path becomes purposeless. In the second case, one holding the view “the soul is one thing, the body another” (aññaṁ jīvaṁ aññaṁ sarīraṁ) holds that the body alone is annihilated here, while the soul goes about freely like a bird released from a cage. This view is eternalism. But if there were even one formation that is permanent, stable, and eternal, the noble path would not be able to bring the round to an end; thus again the development of the path would be purposeless.'
(The Connected Discourses of the Buddha, p 756, n 107)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 13th, 2022 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: Refining a Meditative Practice
Content:
Parsifal said:
So far, I have implemented this way of Zen practice for a long time but I seem to fall in a fatal trap. Should I refrain from any practices other than Zen? I want find any clue to make myself free from any noise or disturbance from outside.

Astus wrote:
An advice to fit one's personal situation needs to be from someone who knows and understands it, and at the same time knows ways to help. Other than that you need to see for yourself to apply the general teachings to your particular case. Zazen, as dropping body and mind, is the ultimate sword of wisdom to cut all entanglements of the misconceptions of self and belonging to a self. However, if it's not a tool one can wield, there are many other approaches to take, one just needs to find and train in the appropriate method. Still, if one can see how from a single attractive thought whole worlds can bloom, it's possible to not perpetuate the first thought. In order to be motivated to let it go it's good to recognise the drawbacks of delighting in that idea.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 13th, 2022 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Refining a Meditative Practice
Content:
Astus wrote:
Since you're OK with zazen, have you studied any zen teachings, like those of Dogen?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 12th, 2022 at 2:51 PM
Title: Re: Kasina practice or similar
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
are there any cycles of teachings that recommend anything like Kasina practice?

Astus wrote:
Abhidharmakośa 8.34-36 - they discuss the liberations (vimokṣa), the spheres of mastery (abhibhvāyatana), and the spheres of totality (kṛtsnāyatana). The last of those is the equivalent of the Pali kasina, in Tibetan: https://read.84000.co/glossary/entity-33443.html. On their meaning and usage see this introduction by Lamotte: https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225619.html, where the summary of the Abhidharma approach is:

'In general, the vimokṣas are the gateway into the abhibus, which in turn are the gateway into the kṛtsnas. The vimokṣas are ‘complete emancipation’ (vimokṣamātra) from the object. The abhibhus exert a twofold mastery (abhibhavana) over the object, entailing the view of the object as one wishes it (yatheṣṭam adhimokṣaḥ) and the absence of the negative emotion provoked by the object (kleśānutpatti). The kṛtsnas embrace the object without a gap and in its totality (nirantarakṛtsnaspharaṇa). All are derived from the dhyānas and the samāpattis.'


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 11th, 2022 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.
Content:
Mdg137 said:
Is it possible to get to enlightenment (or at least, some level of transcendent realization, not necessarily full Buddhahood) through recitation of Amida's name and through other power, in the here-and-now?

Astus wrote:
Recitation in and of itself can be a form of calming (samatha) practice. A calm state of mind is conducive to wisdom, but for insight one needs to engage in some form of contemplation. Then based on the insight there can be awakening of various levels.

Mdg137 said:
When Pure Land Masters  speak of "birth", do they mean birth in the common sense (I.E., your physical body dies, and you are reborn in a lotus in an external Western Pure Land), or do they mean birth in a more absolute sense (I.E., causal birth, from one moment to the next, "birth in one thought-moment" as Ippen said)?

Astus wrote:
Generally it is birth in the Pure Land after one has died. In an absolute sense there is no birth.

Mdg137 said:
Why do the Japanese Masters seem to advocate exclusive recitation, rather than mixing practices?

Astus wrote:
Honen initiated the concept of focusing solely on recitation as the most effective method, so his followers kept up this approach. However, as long as there is no conflict with nenbutsu one may engage in other practices. However, if you prefer a more inclusive approach you might want to look at Chinese Pure Land teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 8th, 2022 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Christian apologetics vs Buddhism
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
From the few of these Christian vs Buddhist apologetics videos that I've seen on Youtube are there to serve two main purposes: To basically denigrate other faiths in way that reassures the Christian listener that their belief is justified.
To discourage the listener from looking outside Christianity for answers.

Astus wrote:
'Apologetics: A theological science which has for its purpose the explanation and defence of the Christian religion.'
( https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01618a.htm; cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics )

Knotty Veneer said:
I wonder why the Christian apologists do not seem to mention the Mahayana?

Astus wrote:
Theravada at least leaves some sort of subtle mechanics as the ultimate basis, while Mahayana destroys even that much with refuting any sort of true foundation of reality.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: What if Buddhism Doesn't Work?
Content:
wei wu wei said:
We'll often read the following advice: if our practice is "working," the people in our lives will notice it.

Astus wrote:
Sounds like a serious misunderstanding of Buddhist practice. Developing mindfulness is a key element, and as such it shows directly how things are going on in terms of skilful and unskilful qualities. Without such awareness we can at best collect some worldly merit.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Christian apologetics vs Buddhism
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
No, “desire” itself, isn’t the issue.

Astus wrote:
Right, three types of desire/thirst are the issue: desiring sensual pleasure, desiring to exist, and desiring not to exist. But there are also other definitions.

PadmaVonSamba said:
The issue is desiring conditionally arising phenomena, believing that it brings lasting satisfaction.  That mistaken desire is what needs to be abandoned. Buddhism doesn’t say that there anything wrong with craving a pizza.

Astus wrote:
There is a problem (i.e. suffering) with such cravings if one can't satisfy it, or if the way taken to satisfy it is painful/harmful in some way. And there is the usual problem with craving that it keeps recurring even if satisfied.

PadmaVonSamba said:
But the misrepresentation of Buddhism claims that the dharma teaches that wanting anything, happiness, security, friends, is somehow a bad thing. It isn’t.

Astus wrote:
It's not necessarily bad morally.

'Blinded by desire they do not see 
Sensuality's faults, like a leper scratching. 
Those free from desire see the infatuated 
As suffering like the leper.'
(Aryadeva's Four Hundred Stanzas on the Middle Way, 3.64)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 7th, 2022 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Christian apologetics vs Buddhism
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
The problem Buddhism seeks to overcome is desire and that its goal is the extinction of all desire. Nirvana more or less equals non-existence. Basically, it's nihilism.

Astus wrote:
There's nothing wrong with that interpretation in general. What is missing from it is that nirvana is attainable while still alive.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2022 at 7:42 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Cakrasamvara Transcriptions?
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Anyone know a guy?

Astus wrote:
Maybe https://dakinitranslations.com/2021/10/01/utter-illumination-of-the-innermost-essence/ can work for you.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2022 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Malcolm said:
As for the path, readings on ethics, the six perfections, śamatha and vipaśyāna, pure land,

And for the result, clearly, readings on  ten stages, the nature of the two or three kāyas such as the lifespan of the Tathāgata chapter in the Lotus, etc.

Astus wrote:
Either for the path (pure land) or the result a short list of the most important/popular buddhas and bodhisattvas should be included. One limiting criteria could be that they're accepted on both the Chinese and the Tibetan sides. So along the lines of Sakyamuni, Amitabha, Bhaisajyaguru, Avalokita, Manjusri, Samantabhadra, Ksitigarbha, Maitreya.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2022 at 5:52 PM
Title: Re: Questions about various Buddhist schools
Content:
Tukaram said:
From what I have said does one tradition sound more my style than others?

My plan is to keep studying, keep meditating, and see where it goes.  Any reading, practice, teachers... any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Astus wrote:
Any and all. There are stereotypes, like Theravada being monastic focused, Zen being simplistic, and Vajrayana being ritualistic, but practically it's about what inclinations one has regardless of the tradition. The decisive factors are mostly what sort of rhetoric you find acceptable and what are your options in terms of accessible teachings. It is also possible to start at one place and then move to another as one's understanding matures about Buddhism.

A generally recommended introductory book is Mahayana Buddhism: The Doctrinal Foundations by Paul Williams. The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching: Transforming Suffering into Peace, Joy, and Liberation by Thich Nhat Hanh is a good and short summary of key concepts. But there are other great books and websites as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2022 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Yes but i was thinking of something that's specifically Mahayanist.

Astus wrote:
There's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutrasamuccaya, but its English translation by Bhikkhu Pāsādika seems hard to come by.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2022 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
I was wondering, if someone were to make a similar compilation for Mahayana, which Mahayana sutra passages would you say definitely must be included in it?

Astus wrote:
Something like that has been done already.

https://www.bdkamerica.org/product/buddha-dharma-the-way-to-enlightenment-2e-paperback/

https://buddhistuniversity.net/content/monographs/common-buddhist-text


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2022 at 6:50 PM
Title: Re: Nirvana in 3 innumerable kalpas, or in a single lifetime?
Content:
yokosukasailorboy said:
As I have heard, enlightenment takes 3 innumerable kalpas to achieve.

Astus wrote:
'The words of the Buddha are true. But the three asankhya kalpas refer to the three poisoned states of mind. What we call asankhya in Sanskrit you call countless. Within these three poisoned states of mind are countless evil thoughts. And every thought lasts a kalpa. Such an infinity is what the Buddha meant by the three asankhya kalpas.
Once your real self becomes obscured by the three poisons, how can you be called liberated until you overcome their countless evil thoughts? People who can transform the three poisons of greed, anger, and delusion into the three releases are said to pass through the three asankhya kalpas. But people of this final age are the densest of fools. They don't understand what the Tathagata really meant by the three asankhya kalpas. They say enlightenment is only achieved after endless kalpas and thereby mislead disciples to retreat on the path to buddhahood.'
(Breakthrough Sermon, in The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, p 85-87; https://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/X63n1220_p0009b12 )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2022 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Do dualistic appearances exist apart from a consciousness or not?

Astus wrote:
Appearances are whatever appears as an experience, and they become dualistic through conceiving them in terms of apprehended and one who apprehends. How could there be an experience without a consciousness?

Malcolm said:
And if in fact dualistic appearances are utter nonexistents (which the yogacārins claim is the case), how is the consciousness in which they appear conditioned?

Astus wrote:
What is nonexistent - i.e. it never actually appears - is the assumed substantiality of appearances.

Malcolm said:
What are the causes and conditions of this substantial consciousness?

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is not a single thing, and each instance of consciousness is conditioned by various factors, most importantly the three poisons.

Malcolm said:
This is the whole problem with the yogacārin interpretation of the three nature and why mādhyamikas attack it.

Astus wrote:
Brunnhölzl's summary of the three natures:

'From the Yogācāra School’s fundamental point of view — that whatever we encounter is always nothing but an experience in our mind — the three natures can be summarized as follows. The imaginary nature stands for our habitual way of misperceiving the other-dependent nature — dependently-originating mere appearances in our minds. We insist that these are real in just the way they appear, existing as distinct entities of internal consciousness and its external objects. Although such dependent dualistic appearances (the other-dependent nature) lack any self-sufficient existence, they cannot simply be claimed to be nothing, as they keep appearing and being experienced due to our habitual mental tendencies. The perfect nature basically refers to perceiving the unity of dependently-originating mere appearances and emptiness. This means realizing that any imaginary subject-object duality and all superimpositions of personal and phenomenal identities never existed in other-dependent appearances. However, this does not mean to reify either the other-dependent or the perfect nature as some truly existent remainder after duality has been removed.'
(Straight from the Heart, p 45)

Malcolm said:
As far as I can tell, you are misreading Jñānagarbha, conflating his "mere thing" with Asanga's "mere thing":

'A mere thing (vastu-mātra), which is not confused with anything that is imagined and arises dependently, is known as correct relative [truth].'

Asanga's "mere thing" in the BBh is an ineffable ultimate, as indicated above.

Astus wrote:
No conflation, just coincidence (or not) that Jñānagarbha happens to use the same term that is used in Yogācāra. On the other hand, apart from categorising one as conventional and the other as ultimate, what difference is there? In Madhyamaka conventional mere appearances are mistaken for substantial entities, i.e. as ultimate, and that brings about suffering. In Yogacara ultimate mere appearances are mistaken for substantial entities, i.e. as perceiver and perceived, and that brings about suffering.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
There cannot be causal efficiencies if there are no actual subjects and objects.

Astus wrote:
How does that interpretation reflect on Madhyamaka?

Verse 8abc: 'A mere thing (vastu-mātra), which is not confused with anything that is imagined and arises dependently, is known as correct relative [truth].'
Commentary: 'Mere things are capable of effective action (artha-kriyā-samartha) that corresponds to appearances (yathādarśana). [Mere things] also depend for their arising on causes and conditions, so they are known as correct relative truth. If something appears consistently to be caused in the cognition of [everyone from a scholar] to a child, it is correct relative [truth], because something exists that is consistent with what appears in cognition.'
(Commentary on the Distinction Between the Two Truths, in Jñānagarbha on the Two Truths, p 75)

'The conventional that appears just-as-it-is is established by being produced by causes and conditions. If it were impossible to establish it, by whom would the moon in water and the like be produced?
Therefore all appearances are established as being produced by various causes and conditions. If the continuance of conditions is interrupted, they do not arise even conventionally.'
(Entry to the Two Realities by Atiśa, v 22-23, in Jewels of the Middle Way, p 121)

Malcolm said:
Throughout their analysis, consciousness itself left unnegated, and so on, try as they may to avoid the charge of realism, their own words betray them.

Astus wrote:
If by consciousness you mean conditioned appearances devoid of essence, what's there to negate? If you mean something else, like a real consciousness, how would that not be practically an atman? Therefore, as consciousness is the one that grasps things, it is very much negated (Sutralamkara VI.7-8 (also quoted in Mahamudra the Moonlight on pp 64, 85, 185); Sangraha III.7-8).

'The Bodhisattva, in the state of Samadhi,
Perceives that images are merely his mind;
The aspects of emptiness and being having already been eliminated,
He realizes that only his thoughts exist.
Abiding thus in his interior mind,
He knows that what is grasped (Grahya) does not exist.
He then realizes that what grasps (Grahaka) does not exist either ;
Later he "touches" the state of "having gained nothing" (anupalambha).'
(Cheng Weishi Lun, p 683, tr Wei Tat)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2022 at 7:30 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
My definition comes from how it is read from Tibetan.

Astus wrote:
Thank you for looking it up and providing the translations. It's much appreciated.

Malcolm said:
So you see the dependent itself is not "dependent," it produces conceptuality, i.e. samsara, which is different than itself. If it were the same thing as conceptuality, it could not be suchness, in this case, vijnāptimatra, perception-only.

Astus wrote:
The nature of the dependent is conceptuality. This is stated by Vasubandhu and Sthiramati explicitly. Unless you take 'nature' to mean something that is produced by something else, in which case what the dependent is isn't defined at all.
Sthiramati's statement that 'causes and conditions are called "dependent,"' matches the definition given in the Samdhinirmocana Sutra ( https://read.84000.co/translation/toh106.html#UT22084-049-001-345 ): 'what is the other-dependent defining characteristic [of phenomena]? It is the dependent arising of phenomena.'
On the matter of how the dependent is the same as conceptuality Xuanzang gives two versions:

'It should be understood that the definition given in the Stanza whereby 'Paratantra consists of discriminations produced by causes and conditions', refers only to the defiled Paratantra, i.e., the Vikalpa. Pure Paratantra is not, in fact, termed Vikalpa; it is as much Parinispanna as Paratantra.
The second opinion is that all minds and their attributes, whether defiled or pure, are designated in the Stanza by the term vikalpa, because they are all capable of apprehending and perceiving objects. Thus, the definition given in the Stanza includes all Paratantras, pure as well as defiled.'
(Cheng Weishi Lun, p 633, tr Wei Tat)

And here's his summary of the three natures (p 637):

"We may conclude that these three 'Natures' (svabhava) are all inseparable from the mind and its attributes (Citta-Caittas). That is to say:
a. The mind and its attributes, together with the manifestations produced by it (darsana and nimittabhaga), are engendered through numerous conditioning factors, and are thus like the phenomena produced by a magician's tricks, which, not really existing though they seem to exist, deceive the ignorant. All this is called the 'nature of dependence on others' (Paratantra).
b . The ignorant thereupon perversely believe in them as Atman and as dharmas, which exist or do not exist, are identical or different, are inclusive or exclusive, etc. But, like 'flowers in the sky', etc., they are non-existent both in inner nature and external aspect. All this is called the 'nature of mere imagination' (Parikalpita).
c. These things, which are thus dependent on others and are wrongly regarded as Atman and as dharmas, are, in reality, all void (sunya). The genuine nature of consciousness thus revealed by this 'voidness' is called the 'nature of ultimate reality' (Parinispanna).
Thus, these three natures are all inseparable from mind, etc."

Malcolm said:
Any, my point is simple, the Yogacārins clearly define consciousness as a substance, they are clearly unhappy if one denies the existence of this substance, and given the absence of another other than minds in their scheme of the universe, their presentation of mind-only in the sūtras suffers from a realist bias.

Astus wrote:
On how dependent origination - i.e. the dependent nature - includes a level of reality, we can look at Madhyantavibhangabhasya III.18b (tr Anacker, p 241-242):

'A denial regarding causality would be to construct that nothing like causality takes place at all.'
'A denial regarding effect would be to construct that even when ignorance does not exist, ensnaring motivating dispositions would arise.'
'A denial regarding activity would be to construct that even ignorance has no power to make the motivating dispositions arise.'

I don't see how that's much of a problem, it's like correct relative truth. As for the interpretation that 'the Yogacārins clearly define consciousness as a substance', it fits only when 'substance' stands for causal efficacy, and not for some independent, permanent entity. After all, if the final truth Yogacara had to offer was an ultimately existing mind, then they would be subject the below objection made against the Sautrantikas:

'If you hold your consciousness-species to be a real thing (dravya), you adopt the opinion of the Tirthikas (Vaisesikas).'
(Cheng Weishi Lun, p 205, tr Wei Tat)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2022 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
What is this suchness he is asserting? It is the dependent nature, of course, which he asserts exists ultimately. So, he does not escape the charge of asserting something compounded becomes uncompounded in the transformation of the basis. Why? Because the purification of the all-basis consciousness is the entire keystone of the yogacāra system. I will leave it here because we are going now in circles.

In Madhyamaka, the ultimate is simply the absence of inherent existence in conventional entities.

Astus wrote:
Conventional entities - that are dependently originated - with an imputed essence is the imagined nature, without an essence it's the perfected nature. If the distinction here is whether entities exist apart from the mind or not, it's not really an issue, as the imagined essence is necessarily mental for both, while the nonconceptual is without inside or outside. This also solves the case of a compounded becoming uncompounded, as emptiness is not coumpounded for anyone, and conditionality is compounded for both, and apart from those two - since the ultimate, you say, is dependent nature - there is nothing else.

'How do the Two Truths, Samvrtisatyr and Paramarthasatyr, correspond to the three natures?
The meaning is that Samvrtisatyr (mundane truth) is Parikalpita, Paratantra, and Parinispanna, while Paramarthasatyr (ultimate supramundane truth) is exclusively Parinispanna.
(1) Samvrti is of three kinds: 
a. Prajnaptisamvrti, i.e., fictitious or conventional mundane truth ; 
b. Prattipatisamvrti, i.e., impure, mutable mundane truth; 
c. Udbhavanasamvrti, i.e., mundane truth that reveals Tathata through the two Voids. 
These three kinds correspond, in the right order, to the three natures, Parikalpitasvabhava etc.
(2) Paramartha is also of three kinds: 
a. Arthaparamartha, which is Tathata, because the latter is the artha of parama, i.e., the object of supreme wisdom ; 
b. Praptiparamartha, which is Nirvana, because the latter is the parama artha, i.e., the supreme thing; 
c. Pratipattiparamartha, which is the Noble Path, because the latter has parama as artha (object), i.e., the supreme Dharma, Nirvana. 
All these three kinds are included in Parinispanna: the first two, because they are immutable; the third because it is non-erroneous.'
(Cheng Weishi Lun, p 649-651, tr Wei Tat)

Malcolm said:
That's not why the dependent nature is called "dependent.' This is a misunderstanding. It is called the "dependent nature" because samsara and nirvana both depend on how it is perceived, not because it itself is "dependent."

Astus wrote:
That certainly changes things. Would you elaborate?

'The other-dependent nature, however,
Is the act of graspable-grasper discrimination;
It depends for its origin on conditions.'
(Trimsatika, v 21, tr Kochumuttom)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2022 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
You can find evidence of this in the Bodhisattvabhumi [Engles, pp. 77-86], where Asanga excoriates mādhyamikas for over-negation, where he describes the negation of a designation as valid, but strongly objects to the negation of the basis of designation, a so-called "bare substance."

Astus wrote:
How is that practically different from saying that things are empty mere appearances? For both Yogacara and Madhyamaka come to a perception that is without conceptualisation but not without phenomena.

Mipham comments on verse 78 of Madhyamakalankara:
'If there is no appearance, there is no emptiness, for emptiness and appearance depend upon each other. The absence of one entails the absence of the other; the presence of one entails the presence of the other. It is not that appearance and emptiness exist separately, like a white and a black thread twisted together. Neither are they alternate in the sense that when one goes, the other comes. Emptiness entails appearance; appearance entails emptiness. The two can never be separate.'
(The Adornment of the Middle Way, p 329)

What Asanga refutes is not necessarily Madhyamaka but a misconception of emptiness as nothingness.

'The validity of emptiness is [defined by] the nonexistence of that [quality] of which [entities] are empty and the existence of that [state] which constitutes emptiness. But if it is [held to be] a [state of] complete nonexistence, what could be [the entity] in relation to which this empty [state] might occur, what could this empty [state] consist of, and what [quality] could [entities] be empty of? It would also not be possible for emptiness [to be a state that] pertains to this [particular entity] or for it to be [a state in which an entity is] empty of this [particular quality]. Therefore, this is how emptiness becomes wrongly grasped.'
(The Bodhisattva Path to Unsurpassed Enlightenment, I.4.6, p 83)

Might as well be read like Mipham's commentary to Janggya Rölpé Dorje's poem:

'also the great lord Tsongkhapa has adopted the very profound essence of the intention of Nāgārjuna and Candrakīrti. A dry understanding of being empty alone is easy, but emptiness appearing as dependent origination is difficult. Therefore, he emphasized everywhere in his teachings [the need for] serious practice and that dependent origination is more important than emptiness. Not understanding this as the actual meaning of his view and to then just practice some sort of hearsay in terms of mere [outward] behavior is the unprecedented approach of some Gedenpas [obsessed] with nonimplicative negations.'
(Straight from the Heart, p 413)

Malcolm said:
Here it is it seen that the dependent nature, the cognition that appears as the unreal or appears as real is never itself negated. And, given Asanga's references to a "bare substance' in the BBh above, one can only conclude that this ultimate is an existent cognition devoid of duality, itself ultimately established even if its contents are not, since, it cannot be nonexistent according to the Yogacāra scheme set forth by Asanga.

Astus wrote:
Dependent nature is not negated, so there is no independent, uncompounded consciousness to find anywhere, otherwise it wouldn't be dependent. It's also dependent nature that's like an illusion, a mirage, a dream, a reflection, an optical illusion, an echo, a water-moon, a magical creation (MS II.27).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2022 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Think you need to brush up a bit on Yogacara.

Astus wrote:
That's probably so. Still, I cannot recall encountering the idea somewhere in a Yogacara work that there is an ultimate, uncompounded consciousness, despite this being a standard charge against them. On the other hand, the twofold emptiness is regularly affirmed.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2022 at 5:35 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
"The imagination of the unreal exists..."
One cannot have an imagination of the unreal in absence of a consciousness imagining the unreal.

Astus wrote:
Imagination exists as unreal, it appears real to the deluded and false to the wise. And when it is seen as actually unreal, there is no observing consciousness either, as the verse after the next stanza states explicitly.

Malcolm said:
That does not address the point, and even Mipham admits in this text that consciousness exists ultimately

Astus wrote:
Is there such an admittance somewhere explicitly, or is it something assumed? Furthermore, Yogacara works are quite explicit that there are eight consciousnesses, none of them ultimately existing.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2022 at 4:27 PM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Abhidharmasamuccaya is not a Yogacāra text.

Astus wrote:
How so?

Malcolm said:
Even so, it is pretty clear Asanga's view has an internal contradiction when looking at Mahāyānasaṃgraha, as above.

Astus wrote:
The problems https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=635791#p635791: 'Thus, all-basis consciousness here is asserted to transform into the dharmakāya, consequently (1) something compounded is asserted to transform into something uncompounded or (2) the all-basis consciousness is uncompounded, or (3) dharmakāya is compounded. These are three undesirable consequences of the three natures scheme.'

There is no compounded becoming uncompounded, nor an uncompounded consciousness, nor a compounded dharmakaya. At X.3.c it states explicitly:

'[The dharmakāya has] the characteristic of nonduality because (1) by virtue of its having the characteristic of the nonduality of existence and nonexistence, it is the nonbeing of all phenomena and the being of the characteristic of emptiness. (2) [The dharmakāya also has] the characteristic of the nonduality of being conditioned and unconditioned because it is not formed by karma and afflictions and masters the display of what appears as being conditioned.'

Furthermore, as it's in your original quote of X.3.a, the conversion is from the impure to the pure aspect of dependent nature, so as the text says in IX.3:

'When the knowledge of the sameness
Of saṃsāra and nirvānạ has arisen,
At that point, in them, therefore
Saṃsāra itself becomes nirvāna.
For that reason, saṃsāra
Is neither abandoned nor not abandoned.
Consequently, nirvāna too
Is neither attained nor not attained.'

Malcolm said:
And there is the fact that Vimuktisena chides the Yogacāra school for possessing a realist view of the objective support in Abhisamayālamḳaravṛitti {Spareham, vol. 1, pg. 88].

Astus wrote:
Is there any known Yogacara author who actually proposed such a view as given by Vimuktisena? Note 64 only tries to track down the sutra quote in the qualm.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2022 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Emptiness is yogacāra is clearly an extrinsic emptiness. As asserted in the Madhyantavibhanga, "emptiness exists" as a consciousness devoid of duality.

Astus wrote:
Where does it assert such a consciousness? In I.13 it merely states that it is 'the being of the non-being of duality' (Anacker, p 217) or 'the assertion of the negation of that pair' (Kochumuttom, p 241), and then it goes on to explain emptiness with reference to the relationship between universal characteristics to specific objects.
From Mipham's commentary: 'If it were the case that the emptiness of duality did not exist, the duality of apprehended and apprehender would become existent, as a double negation is an affirmation.' (Middle Beyond Extremes, p 37)

Malcolm said:
Even so, it is pretty clear Asanga's view has an internal contradiction when looking at Mahāyānasaṃgraha, as above. And there is the fact that Vimuktisena chides the Yogacāra school for possessing a realist view of the objective support in Abhisamayālamḳaravṛitti {Spareham, vol. 1, pg. 88].

Astus wrote:
Thanks, I'll look into them.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2022 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Are all Mahayana sutras sutras of definitive meaning?
Content:
Malcolm said:
If we consider paratantra, the dependent nature, to be the all-basis consciousness, there is an internal contradiction in asserting that something compounded becomes uncompounded in the transformation of the basis into the perfected nature, parnispanna.

Astus wrote:
Things have never been apart from emptiness in the first place.

"Parinispanna or Ultimate Reality is the complete and perfect 'real nature'  of all dharmas which is revealed by the two 'Voids' (sunyas)."
(Cheng Weishi Lun, p 633, tr Wei Tat)

Malcolm said:
There are other problems with Yogacāra view as well, which mainly arise from their reluctance to accept that consciousness is also a dependent designation.

Astus wrote:
Apart from space and various forms of cessation the only uncompounded in Yogacara is suchness (Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 23-25; http://www.cttbusa.org/100shastra/100dharmas_1.asp.html ).
Who says consciousness isn't compounded? Sounds more like a buddha-mind type of idea.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 13th, 2022 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: The Life and Letters of Tofu Roshi
Content:
clyde said:
“. . . consider the koan called “The Sound of One Hand Scratching.” No Bun once asked Bush Wak, “If a mosquito bites Buddha, will it become enlightened?”
Something to ponder.

Astus wrote:
What's there to ponder about it? There is no salvation in Buddhism by consuming anyone's body.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 10th, 2022 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Yijing in Zen
Content:
Astus wrote:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/OuyiZhixu.html (1599– 1655), one of the four eminent Buddhist masters of the Ming era, wrote a commentary on the Yijing that was translated by Thomas Cleary and published under the title https://www.shambhala.com/the-buddhist-i-ching-319.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 9th, 2022 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: The Karmapa fathered a child - DNA test reveals
Content:
Dhammanando said:
It's from the Pali Vinaya, not Thai custom, though if the contact is intentional but not lustful the offence is far less serious.

Astus wrote:
Thank you for the correction.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 9th, 2022 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: The Karmapa fathered a child - DNA test reveals
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I once asked my Thai monk friend (Ajahn) about the vinaya prohibition about monks touching women (they aren’t supposed to). The Theravada monks are pretty strict about this, or at least the ones I know are.

Astus wrote:
That's only a Thai custom. The actual rule is about touching with lust, https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0011.html#Sg2. See also FAQ. 2 https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/faqmonks.htm.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2022 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Awakening
Content:
Tao said:
So not known person reached first bhumi not even Buddha?

Astus wrote:
From A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace (2.4):

Huangbo: 'Even though [you may attain] bodhi, suchness, the characteristic of reality, liberation, or the dharma body and directly reach the sanctified ranks of the ten stages or the four fruitions, all these involve the [expedient] gate of salvation. They have nothing to do with the buddha mind.'
Commentary: 'All gradual stages are far removed from the Way. Turn one thought around and realize completely the fact that a buddha’s nature and your nature are not different.'

Huangbo: 'Only if there are no states of mind involving birth and death, defilements, and so forth is there then no need for such dharmas as bodhi.'
Commentary: 'There is nothing that can be named “mind.” It is not that the mind does not exist; rather, it reveals itself as causes and conditions are produced. Whether good or evil, there is no exception to this rule.
There is neither birth and death nor defilements; they are all shadows created through corresponding causes and conditions. Not knowing this fact, people try to remove all these shadows. If they suddenly turn one thought around and realize that all shadows are originally empty, their minds will be at rest. If this happens, not only birth and death and defilements but also nirvāṇa and bodhi will be at rest. Whether it is this or that is all relative. Therefore, if one is extinguished, the other will naturally be extinguished as well.'


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2022 at 2:37 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Awakening
Content:
curtstein said:
I have heard that someone who attains the first bhumi is able to manifest in 100 different places with 100 different bodies at the same time - and in each place one is applying skillful means to help the sentient beings in that place. I heard this from a Lama in the Kagyu tradition (Lama Chodron, based in Richmond VA), and I believe she was relying on Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation, or some Kagyu commentary thereon.
Although my own tradition is different (Korean Soen), that particular teaching has really stuck with me. On the one had it can be discouraging to realize just how far one is from such a state. On the other hand a little humility on the path goes a long way.

Astus wrote:
It's actually from the Ten Stages chapter of the Avatamsaka Sutra.

'Having gone forth, enlightening beings instantly attain a hundred concentrations and see a hundred buddhas and acknowledgetheir power; they stir a hundred worlds, go to a hundred lands, illumine a hundred worlds, mature a hundred beings, live for a hundred eons, penetrate a hundred eons past and future, contemplate a hundred teachings, and manifest a hun dred bodies, each body m anifesting a company of a hundred enlightening beings. Then enlightening beings with superior power of commitment, by the quality of excellence of vows, transform their bodies, auras, mystic powers, vision, spheres of operation, voices, conduct, adornments, power, resolutions, and performances in countless ways.'
(Flower Ornament Scripture, p 710-711; https://read.84000.co/translation/toh44-31.html#UT22084-036-002-390 )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 5th, 2022 at 5:12 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Awakening
Content:
Astus wrote:
Dajian Huineng:

If you activate the correct and true and contemplate with prajñā, in a single instant [all your] false thoughts will be completely eradicated. If you recognize the self-nature, with a single [experience of] enlightenment you will attain the stage of buddhahood.
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 33)

Dazhu Huihai:

Q: What is Sudden Enlightenment? 
A: "Sudden" means instantly stopping false thought. "Enlightenment" means [awareness] that one attains nothing.
( https://www.ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/treatise-entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment )

Sudden Enlightenment means liberation during this lifetime. Just as a lion-cub, from the moment it is born, is a real lion, likewise anyone who practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method has, from the moment he begins his practice, already entered the Buddha-Stage. Just as the bamboo-shoots growing in springtime are not different from the parent bamboo-shoots, because they are also empty inside, likewise anyone who practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method to rid himself suddenly of false thought abandons, like the Buddhas, the sense of an ego and a personality forever. Being absolutely deep, still and void, he is, then, without an iota of difference, equal to the Buddhas. Thus, in this sense it can be said that the worldly is holy. If one practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method, he can transcend the three realms during this lifetime.
( https://www.ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/treatise-entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment )

Baizhang Huaihai:

Question: What is the essential method for sudden enlightenment in the great vehicle?
The master said,
You all should first put an end to all involvements and lay to rest all concerns; do not remember or recollect anything at all, whether good or bad, mundane or transcendental - do not engage in thoughts. Let go of body and mind, set them free.
...
Once affirmation and negation, like and dislike, approval and disapproval, all various opinions and feelings come to an end and cannot bind you, then you are free wherever you may be; this is called a bodhisattva at the moment of inspiration immediately ascending to the stage of Buddhahood.
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 77-78)

Huangbo Xiyun:

If you suddenly realize right here and now that your own mind is originally a buddha, there is no dharma that needs to be attained and no practice that needs to be cultivated. This is the unsurpassed Way. This is the buddha of true suchness.
(A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, 1.4)

Ordinary people who are about to die should just perceive that the five aggregates are all empty and the four great elements are not the self. The true mind is signless; it neither goes nor comes. At the moment of birth, the nature does not come, and at the moment of death, the nature does not go; placid, it remains perfectly quiescent. The mind and sense objects are one and the same. If you can simply attain sudden understanding right here and now in this manner, you will not be bound by past, present, or future. You will then be a person who has transcended the world.
(A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, 1.6)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2022 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Is Zen simply "sitting"/Zazen?
Content:
Aemilius said:
Entangling Vines (Thomas Yūhō Kirchner, 2013)  Case 139 Nanyue Polishes a Tile

Astus wrote:
'“To attach to the sitting form is not to have attained the principle of that [sitting].” This “to attach to the sitting form” means to reject the sitting form and to defile the sitting form. The fundamental principle here is that when we are already practicing sitting buddha, it is impossible not to be attached to the sitting form. Because it is impossible not to be attached to the sitting form, although attachment to the sitting form is something brilliant, it may be “not to have attained the principle of that [sitting].” Effort like this is called “the dropping off of body and mind.” Those who have never sat do not possess this state of truth. It exists in the moment of sitting, it exists in the person who is sitting, it exists in the buddha that is sitting, and it exists in the buddha that is learning sitting.'
(Zazenshin, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 121)

'Polishing a tile to make a mirror is effort in practice.
How can people plan to take a mirror and make it a tile?
The point of deceiving each other is completed within clarity.
Square and circle mold their forms, using themselves as models.

Even when called the iron man, how can you be a tile or mirror?
Even before killing Buddha is born, the sitting Buddha descends.
Sitting, lying, and walking meditation are all just right.
Clouds arise south of the mountain; rain falls on the western river.'
(Eihei Koroku, vol 9, case 38, p 562)

'When polishing a tile to make a mirror, our body is not the four great elements, but is suchness, imposing and magnificent. When polishing a hammer to make a needle, our mind is not the five skandhas but is the absolute, completely clear and bright. Therefore, no colors obstruct our eyes, no sounds plug our ears, no interactions bind our body, no affairs mislead our mind. Taking away objects is like a donkey looking at a donkey; taking away the person is like the well seeing the well.169 Ultimately, what is it? A wooden horse neighing in the wind freely settles in the mountains; a clay ox bellowing at the moon is able to enter the ocean.'
(Eihei Koroku, vol 4, Dharma Hall Discourse 345, p 309-310)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2022 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana vs Theravada
Content:
Queequeg said:
I'll refer to some zen teachings here for the sake of convenience and general familiarity.

Astus wrote:
Maybe something like this: https://kokyohenkel.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/7/4/127410773/view_meditation_and_conduct_in_dzogchen_and_zen.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2022 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana vs Theravada
Content:
Malcolm said:
The four truths are diagnostic, not ontological. There is a problem. There is a cause of that problem. When the cause of a problem is known, it can be remedied. There is a method to remedy the cause of the problem. Thus, the four truths apply to everything from car repair to samsara.

Astus wrote:
The four noble truths have that structure, but it also has a content, so it outlines the entirety of the Buddha's teaching, and at the same time encompasses the essential liberating insights. Dzogchen, like the other vehicles, fit into it, as they all recognise suffering, its cause, its cause's ending, and the three trainings leading to that end.

Malcolm said:
The difference between the nine yānas and the great perfection is that the former take mind as the basis; where as the great perfection takes gnosis as the basis. This has consequences for the path: the nine yānas are paths based on causes and results; path of Dzogchen is not based on causes and results. This also has consequences for the result. In the the nine yānas the three kāyas are a result that arise from the two accumulations; in Dzogchen, the three kāyas are path experiences and do not exist in the result.

Astus wrote:
Dzogchen still has view, meditation, conduct, and result, doesn't it? Its gnosis is not something other than prajnaparamita, is it?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2022 at 8:01 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana vs Theravada
Content:
Malcolm said:
The basis is different, the path is different, the result is different.

Astus wrote:
Is dzogchen outside the framework of the four noble truths? If so, then how is it not just perpetuating samsara?

Malcolm said:
There is no similarity between Dzogchen and Theravada at all.

Astus wrote:
Maybe you know this one: https://www.abhayagiri.org/books/423-small-boat-great-mountain.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022 at 5:46 PM
Title: Re: Is Zen simply "sitting"/Zazen?
Content:
Anders said:
Sounds like kumbaya scholarship to be honest.

Astus wrote:
I doubt it was meant to be any sort of scholarship. The author was not a scholar either.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2022 at 4:33 PM
Title: Nuns Receive Full Ordination in Bhutan
Content:
Astus wrote:
'Today, on the 21st June, 2022, corresponding to the 23rd day of the 4th lunar month, His Holiness the Je Khenpo is conferring the Gelongma vows to about 144 nuns as announced by the Bhutan Nuns Foundation at Ramthangkha, Paro. Nuns who are receiving the vows are not only from Bhutan but also from neighboring countries. Auspicious signs such as rainbows encircling the sun could be witnessed today.'
( https://www.buddhistdoor.net/news/144-buddhist-nuns-receive-full-ordination-at-landmark-ceremony-in-bhutan/ )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2022 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Is Zen simply "sitting"/Zazen?
Content:
Anders said:
Talk about covering all bases. No idea how one can soundly arrive at such a conclusion.

Astus wrote:
Maybe he was very familiar with his texts? Nowadays a few keyword searches in all the known works should do the job.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2022 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Is Zen simply "sitting"/Zazen?
Content:
Tao said:
Can you talk more about: the Fourfold Dharmadhatu teaching of Huayan?

Astus wrote:
The four are the dharmadhatu (fajie 法界) of: things (shi fajie 事法界), principle (li fajie 理法界), unimpeded things and principle (lishi wuai fajie 理事無礙法界), unimpeded things and things (shishi wuai fajie 事事無礙法界).
It's basically the usual set of appearances, emptiness, and unified appearnaces and emptiness; then the fourth is the most interesting where it's just purely appearances to talk of, or it could be called suchness if you like, where there is no more talk of any principle/emptiness. It's like saying that there is no need to talk of no-self but enough to comprehend the aggregates. After all, any ultimate is purely fictional, and such a conceptual construct eventually has to be let go. It fits well with Dogen's criticism of the common reification of buddha-nature. One just has to see clearly the present experiences ("eyes are horizontal and the nose is vertical"). At the same time, on a linguistic level this gives the freedom and playfulness of saying confusing and contradictory things, like the teaching of insentients.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2022 at 5:14 PM
Title: Re: Is Zen simply "sitting"/Zazen?
Content:
Tao said:
Always found that the Five ranks were very useful, it's strange to me that Soto doesnt use them but Rinzai does, as it was a proposal from a Caodong master...

Astus wrote:
'The use of Dahui’s “short cut,” or huatou (literally, head word), method of working with koans was also known in Japan at this time. This emphasized concentrating on the principle point or critical phrase of a koan in order to minimize unnecessary distractions or misleading discursive thoughts that might arise from studying the entire exchange.
In contrast to these formulized views, Dogen’s approach to koans was wide ranging. He addressed key points of each case, as well as minor secondary points. He frequently examined the koans from the perspective of the “Five Ranks of the Universal and Particular” of Dongshan. He also  pointed out the questions that should be addressed, challenging the practitionerto examine them and sometimes also providing his responses.'
(Dogen and Koans by John Daido Loori, in Dogen's Extensive Record - A Translation of the Eihei Koroku, p 62-63)

'Dogen’s apparent criticism of koans ran parallel to his condemnation of the Five Ranks of Dongshan. And it had a similar purpose. Dogen was not opposed to the principles conveyed by the Five Ranks. He was critical of the very intellectual, stylized, and inconsequential way that they came to be used in his time.'
(p 63)

'One unusual aspect of Dogen’s treatment of koans is his use of the Five Ranks and, more than likely, the Fourfold Dharmadhatu teaching of Huayan. He never explicitly talked about either system, except to summarily dismiss the Five Ranks, but he definitely engaged them in a way that reflected a profound understanding and appreciation for their method.'
(p 64)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2022 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Is Zen simply "sitting"/Zazen?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Here:

Astus wrote:
That's a mistaken view of zazen that's criticised.

'There are many other ways to practice zazen, but, among them, the properly transmitted, genuine Way is not to be found. This is why Dogen Zenji criticized the Zazenshin or Zazenmei in the Keitoku-Dentoroku and the Katai-Futoroku, etc., saying that none expressed the Way which has been properly  transmitted.
...
People in the present day often practice zazen in this manner. This is the attitude of ordinary people, Hinayana practitioners, and bodhisattvas within  the provisional Mahayana practice of zazen. They aspire to rid themselves  of delusions and to gain enlightenment; to eliminate illusory thoughts and to obtain the truth. This is nothing but creating the karma of acceptance and rejection. Such an attitude is just another form of dualism, in that one escapes from one thing and chases after another. If we think this kind of practice is the same as that transmitted by the buddhas and ancestors, as the Tathagata’s zanmai-o-zanmai, or as Bodhidharma’s sitting facing the wall for nine years, these also become mere methods to rid oneself of delusions and to obtain enlightenment. What a pitiful view!'
(Jijuyu-Zanmai by Menzan Zuiho, in Heart of Zen, p 42-23)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 3:10 PM
Title: Re: trophy teachers
Content:
clyde said:
Who do you think are Zen “trophy teachers”?

Astus wrote:
It's those one uses to prove one is better/correct unlike others who have another/no teacher.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2022 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: The Bendowa and Teachers in Zen
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
And yet “face to face transmission” is repeatedly stressed as essential or all but essential for true Zen education.

Astus wrote:
It is stated to be essential not for education but for certification. As Dumoulin (in Zen Buddhism: Japan, p 70) have noted, Dogen's insistence on direct meeting is a rather direct rejection of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C5%8Dnin (more on http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/DogenStudies/DarumaShu_Dogen_Soto.html ). And the current emphasis on it in Sotoshu began in the late 17th century against other forms of transmission (see a summary https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms20.pdf ).

FiveSkandhas said:
Can it serve as a substitute for a master, as suggested by the first quote?

Astus wrote:
No. The teacher, at least a more capable one, can fit the needs of the student, unlike any text.

FiveSkandhas said:
Or is practice useless without a realized master, as later suggested in the same work?

Astus wrote:
No. Proper practice is never useless. Improper practice is. As for what proper practice is, there's already a lot of explanations for that, like on the official Sotoshu homepage https://www.sotozen.com/zazen/index.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2022 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana vs Theravada
Content:
SaaZ said:
I mean this also from a very practical point of view, for instance: when anger arises in me, would be better to go beyond it, or as Dogen would maybe say "drop body and mind and do Zazen", or instead practice some loving kindness?

Astus wrote:
Whatever works. Neither Theravada, nor Zen is limited to a single method.

SaaZ said:
I like to think that zazen might be a distilled form of Buddhism

Astus wrote:
Only if zazen is understood as awakening. Otherwise it's just a temporary posture.

'The true zazen which has been transmitted by the buddhas and ancestors is the Tathagata’s jijuyu-zanmai. It is the state in which the body and mind of perfect nirvana always abide peacefully.'
(Jijuyu-Zanmai, in Heart of Zen, p 43)

SaaZ said:
But ultimately all these people have probably decades of practice before something clicked

Astus wrote:
If one needs decades, lives, innumerable lives to prepare before there is awakening, it is pointless to call it sudden, direct, or immediate, isn't it?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2022 at 7:58 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana vs Theravada
Content:
Tao said:
Do Zen really aims to one sudden awakening instead of gradual stages?
Why people say so?

Astus wrote:
Because it's the fundamental narrative of Zen, that there is a special lineage of people who are equals of Shakyamuni and transmit his ultimate awakening in a direct form. Without that story there is no Zen to talk about. And this doctrine of no doctrine allows the bearers of the seal of bodhi to teach in whatever way they see fit.

Guishan asked Yangshan, “If no spark from flint can go so fast, nor lightning flash pass by, how did the old-time sages save men?” 
“What do you think, Venerable Priest?” asked Yangshan.
Guishan said, “No words have actual significance.”
“Not so,” disagreed Yangshan. 
“Then what do you think?” asked Guishan. 
“Officially, a needle is not permitted to enter; privately, carriages can get through.”
(Record of Linji, tr Sasaki, p 51)

Dayu then struck the meditation platform again and said, “‘The three worlds,’ ‘all the buddhas,’ these phrases are all just a headache. What I say  to you all is, can you avoid it? Is there a single person who can avoid it by finding a place where it doesn’t exist? Not avoiding it, the ocean-seal radiates  brilliantly.”
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 383)

It is practically a manifestation of the skilful means of a bodhisattva.

'In order to guide and benefit all human beings, they do not rely on words. Sometimes, for the sake of weak-willed people, they show how to attain perfect enlightenment quickly by skipping over the stages [of the bodhisattva]. And sometimes, for the sake of indolent people, they say that human beings may attain enlightenment at the end of numberless eons. Thus they can demonstrate innumerable expedient means and suprarational feats. But in reality all these bodhisattvas are the same in that they are alike in their lineage, their capacity, their aspiration, and their realization [of suchness]; therefore, there is no such thing as skipping over the stages, for all bodhisattvas must pass through the three terms of innumerable eons [before they can fully attain enlightenment]. However, because of the differences in the various worlds of beings, and in the objects of seeing and hearing, as well as in the capacity, desires, and nature of the various beings, there are also different ways of teaching them what to practice.'
(The Awakening of Faith, 3.III.3, BDK ed, p 66-67)

'Foolish thinking deeply rooted is difficult to suddenly dig up, so even skilful means can rob you of the most rudimentary understanding. It is like taking yellow leaves [for gold] to stop the howling [of little children] – what is the point? Or like a man starting a shop to sell all of kinds of goods, as well as precious gold and silver ones. People only compare according to their circumstances – talking of Shitou, his shop deals in goods of pure gold, whilst my shop here is a mixed bag. If people come looking for rat droppings, I pull it out and give it to them. If one comes in search of real gold, I pull that out too and give it to him.’ 
...
'If I proclaim the Chan School, then there will only be myself for company, no one else. But will this conduce to having an assembly of several hundred? However, if I proclaim both this and that, then they can vie for the best deal for themselves. This is just like deceiving a child with an empty hand, for there is nothing real in it at all. Although speaking clearly now of spiritual things, do not still try to get it out with consciousness. Just go to your own ocean of bhūtatathatā, be sincere and practise. There is no need of the three illuminations or the six penetrations – why? These things are spiritually insignificant; what is really necessary now, is to get to the source in awareness. Just get to that source without worrying about inessentials. Later everything will fall into place. If the source has yet to be attained, even studying it exhaustively will not obtain it.'
(Yangshan Huiji, in Records of the Transmission of the Lamp, vol 3, 11.221; also in Original Teachings of Ch'an Buddhism, p 212-213)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2022 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana vs Theravada
Content:
Astus wrote:
Zen emphasises sudden awakening, unlike 'classical' Mahayana where there are various levels and stages of the bodhisattva path. This is not to say that only emptiness counts, but rather that when all false concepts are eliminated the abilities of a buddha are automatically present.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2022 at 4:34 PM
Title: Re: most survivable non-tantric mahayana school in western world in 21 century
Content:
Vert said:
Huayan is very much alive and organized having also come to exist in the West even in the US, thanks to missionary effort.

Astus wrote:
Thank you for bringing that up. There is a study available in English of its development in the last century: https://books.google.hu/books?id=RBbYDwAAQBAJ by Erik J. Hammerstrom. The Huayan Lotus Society is a good example that it's not just pure theory, but there are monastics and various ritual ceremonies besides studies. Unfortunately, their activities seem to be limited to Chinese speakers.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2022 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: most survivable non-tantric mahayana school in western world in 21 century
Content:
khemindas said:
That leaves only Huayan (Kegon) with its focus on theory.

Astus wrote:
It's not an existing school, and has not been for a very long time. Huayan, like any Buddhist school, was not just theory. Furthermore, Huayan teachings are among the less studied ones, so unless one reads classical Chinese, it's not possible to have a proper theoretical understanding of them.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2022 at 2:35 PM
Title: Re: Hinayana Buddhism
Content:
MGeorge116 said:
Where can I learn about Hinayana Buddhism, or did it go completely extinct and become lost in time?  I'm not referring to Theravada Buddhism by the way.  I believe that is a common misconception.

Astus wrote:
There is some literature of Hinayana schools translated to English, plus a number of studies. The main source still in use - mainly in the Tibetan traditions - is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidharmako%C5%9Ba-bh%C4%81sya. The book https://buddhadharma.co/Sarvastivada-Abhidharma by Bhikkhu KL Dhammajoti is a good summary of the teachings of this most influential school.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2022 at 3:04 PM
Title: Re: Trouble reconciling Pali/Sanskrit teachings
Content:
Joel327 said:
So are the Pali/Mahayana suttas/sutras compatible, completely different, or a gradual learning process??

Astus wrote:
The sutras are quite compatible, things get complicated when it comes to texts that interpret those scriptures, i.e. mainly commentaries and treatises.
If you want to compare doctrines and practices, it's better to start with an accepted summary treatise that's based on major treatises that are based on the entire canon. Even easier if one begins with introductory teachings by contemporary teachers who are knowledgeable about their tradition. But if you want to see the whole picture, that takes studying at least those texts that are the primary sources of a specific community. Naturally, that much studying may take a couple of years or decades.
There are quite a few good introductory works available, just some examples: The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh; Daring Steps by Ringu Tulku; The Core Teachings by Hsing Yun; The Essence of Buddhism by Traleg Kyabgon; The Way to Buddhahood by Yin-shun.
For bringing together some Theravada and Mahayana: https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/compassionemptiness.pdf; https://www.abhayagiri.org/media/books/amaro_small_boat_great_mountain.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2022 at 7:01 PM
Title: Re: The route to nirvana
Content:
Stigg said:
My question is, how do you know whichever school you subscribe to, is the real deal? Especially so when another school opposes your view. What is your yardstick when it comes to discerning these entanglement?

Astus wrote:
There are mainly superficial differences, and a few only a little deeper. The fundamentals are the same all over the schools, like the five aggregates, six sense areas, dependent origination, three root defilements, and the 37 auxiliaries to awakening.

'Mendicants, whoever has missed out on the noble eightfold path has missed out on the noble path to the complete ending of suffering. Whoever has undertaken the noble eightfold path has undertaken the noble path to the complete ending of suffering. '
(SN 45.33, tr Sujato)

'Whether one wants to train on the level of Disciple, or Pratyekabuddha, or Bodhisattva, - one should listen to this perfection of wisdom, take it up, bear it in mind, recite it, study it, spread it among others, and in this very perfection of wisdom should one be trained and exert oneself.'
(PP8K 1.2, tr Conze)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2022 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?
Content:
khemindas said:
But maybe there was a certain Mahayana school that was accepting all sutras, doctines, concepts, ideas, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas equally? I'm asking only about pure Mahayana (non-tantric). And how about modern days if there are masters who have this equal approach nowadays and books of these masters in english?

Astus wrote:
All sutras have been accepted by everyone, the difference is in what sutras have prominence. One modern example is Fo Guang Shan that embraces all eight schools of Chinese Buddhism (八宗兼弘).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2022 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: One Mind by Huangbo
Content:
master of puppets said:
Isn't this what we call freedom?

Astus wrote:
If you mean freedom from afflictions, then yes.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2022 at 8:18 PM
Title: Re: One Mind by Huangbo
Content:
Tao said:
It sounds a lot Yogachara to me (which is not bad). Maybe Lankavatara was an important sutra for Haungbo? Samdhinirmocana?

Astus wrote:
Neither of those two sutras are quoted directly in Huangbo's records. It's mostly from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awakening_of_Faith_in_the_Mahayana, as likely the most influential treatise in East Asian Buddhism, and there are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazang and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazu_Daoyi as additional sources. Huangbo's contemporary, Guifeng Zongmi also uses the term one mind.

The term one mind, as used by Huangbo, is unlikely to be of Indian origin. Although for instance Zongmi quotes the Lankavatara Sutra (Zongmi on Chan, p 127): "The calmed is called one mind. One mind is the buddha-in-embryo.", but that passage (T16, no. 671, p. 519a1-2) is better translated otherwise as done by Red Pine: "Tranquility means oneness, and oneness means the tathagata-garbha", because 'one mind' (yixin 一心) here is ekagra, one pointed.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2022 at 6:59 PM
Title: One Mind by Huangbo
Content:
Astus wrote:
Below are a number of quotes from Huangbo Xiyun's two texts translated by Robert E. Buswell Jr. and Seong-Uk Kim as found in the book A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace. The quotes are intended to clarify the meaning of the term one mind (yixin 一心) as used by Huangbo.

'[The master himself] just esteemed the stamp of the Supreme Vehicle, which stayed far removed from words and letters. He transmitted only the one mind; there was no other dharma. The essence of mind is also empty, and the myriad conditions are all quiescent. It is like the great orb of the sun that rises in the sky: its radiance shines brightly, and it is clear without the slightest trace of dust.'

That is from Pei Xiu's preface summarising the essentials. It highlights that Huangbo taught exclusively about the one mind that covers both the essence of mind (xinti 心體) and the myriad conditions (wanyuan 萬緣), as both are empty (kong 空) and quiescent (ji 寂).

'All the buddhas and sentient beings are only the one mind; there is no other dharma. Since time immemorial, this mind has never been produced or extinguished. It is neither green nor yellow; it has neither form nor characteristics (lakṣaṇa). It does not belong to the categories of either existence or nonexistence. It cannot be measured in terms of new or old, long or short, large or small. It transcends all limits, measures, names, traces, and comparisons. What is right in front of you — that is it. But if you start to think, you will be far off the mark.
[The one mind] is like empty space. It has no boundaries and cannot be measured. Only this one mind is the buddha. There is utterly no difference between the buddha and sentient beings. Sentient beings are attached to appearances and seek outside [for the buddha]; but in seeking the buddha, they lose the buddha. They make a buddha look for a buddha and use the mind to grasp the mind. Even though they exhaust themselves until the end of the eon, they will never be able to get it.'

That's the beginning of the first text and it contains practically all the basics to know. Both buddhas and beings are included in the one mind, it is without any characteristics (xiang 相) to identify, so it is like space. What separates beings from buddhas is only thinking (nian 念), attachment to appearances (zhuoxiang 著相), seeking outside the mind.

'Dharmas originally are unproduced, and now they are also not extinguished. Do not arouse such dualistic views as revulsion or delight. All dharmas are just this one mind; subsequently, this [insight] becomes the Buddha Vehicle. Ordinary people, generating thoughts about sense objects, pursue delights and revulsions with their minds. To be free from objects, they must forget their minds. If their minds are forgotten, sense objects will become void. If sense objects become void, the mind will be extinguished. If you just want to remove sense objects without forgetting the mind, you will not be able to remove sense objects but will only increase your bewilderment and agitation. Thus the myriad dharmas are just the mind. But as the mind also cannot be ascertained, what more do you seek? Those who train in prajñā see not a single dharma that can be ascertained. They stop conceiving that there are three vehicles. There is only the one genuine reality, which cannot be realized or attained. To claim, “I have had realization and attainment,” is the height of conceit.'

First it points to the Mahayana view that dharmas are originally unborn, and by realising that there is no more liking or disliking - that is the correct insight of the one mind. On the other hand those who are ignorant see arising and cessation and have greed and anger. It shows how letting go of mind/thoughts makes the objects empty, and in turn seeing objects to be empty eliminates delusion, thus there is neither something to cling to nor something that clings. That absence of both mind and objects is being without anything attained, without anything to seek.

'There is the phrase “in similar fashion, this one seminal brightness divides into six that combine together.” The “one seminal brightness” is the one mind. The “six that combine together” are the six sense organs. These six sense organs combine, respectively, with the six sense objects: the eyes combine with forms, the ears combine with sounds, the nose combines with smells, the tongue combines with tastes, the body combines with touch, and the mind combines with mental objects. Between them, six sense consciousnesses arise. Together, these make up the eighteen elements of cognition. If you understand that the eighteen elements of cognition have no objective reality, then these six will combine together into the one seminal brightness. This one seminal brightness is nothing but the mind. All practitioners of the Way know this. They simply cannot avoid creating conceptual understanding of this one seminal brightness and these six combinations. Eventually, these practitioners are bound by dharmas and do not conform with the original mind.'

Here it's shown that there is no one mind apart from the six consciousnesses, the only issue is whether one imagines something real to grasp at or not.

'Only if there are no states of mind involving birth and death, defilements, and so forth is there then no need for such dharmas as bodhi. Therefore, it is said,
The Buddha taught all dharmas 
to eliminate all states of mind.
Since I retain no states of mind, 
what need is there for all dharmas?
From the Buddha to the patriarchs, they speak only of the one mind and the one-vehicle.'

Whatever mind one takes to be the real thing, it is only birth and death. That's why one mind is no mind.

'The master replied, “‘Whatever characteristics there may be, all of those are spurious. But if you see that all characteristics are free from characteristics, you will see the Tathāgata.’ Both buddhas and sentient beings are utterly false views that you have created. Because you do not recognize the original mind, in vain you create such views and understandings. The very moment you create the notion that there is a ‘buddha,’ you are obstructed by that ‘buddha.’ The moment you create the notion that there are ‘sentient beings,’ you are obstructed by those ‘sentient beings.’ If you create such notions as ‘ordinary’ and ‘saint,’ ‘pure’ and ‘impure,’ those will all become obstructions. By obstructing your mind, all these [views] lead to the cycle of rebirth, like an ape that throws one thing away and picks up another without ever taking a break. The highest training of all is invariably no-training. There is neither worldling nor saint; neither pure nor impure; neither large nor small. It is uncontaminated and unconditioned. In this way, the one mind is assiduously adorned with skillful means.'

The sole obstacle is in not seeing characteristics to be empty. To think that there is something to be discovered beyond characteristics - that is, a substance - is very much the type of thinking that can only bring misery. The last sentence is from the closing stanzas of the Brahma Net Sutra:

'If you imagine a self and attach to marks,
You cannot have faith in this teaching.
Those who extinguish affliction and seize realization
Are also not of an inferior type.
Wishing to grow sprouts of bodhi,
Your luminosity shines out upon the world.
You should quietly contemplate
The true character of dharmas,
Which neither arise nor cease,
Are neither eternal nor temporary,
Neither the same nor different,
Neither coming nor going.
Within this One Mind
There is the adornment by the application of skillful means.
The works of the bodhisattvas
Should be put into practice in order,
And you should not create thoughts of distinction
Between discipline and being beyond discipline.
This is called the Supreme Way—
It is all called the Mahayana.
All bases of intellectual play
Are fully extinguished from this point.'
(BDK ed, p 75-76)

'If there is not a single dharma that is ascertainable, you will not be obstructed by dharmas. You transcend the three realms of existence and the spheres of both worldlings and saints. Then and only then will you deserve to be called a ‘supramundane buddha.’ Therefore, it is said, ‘I bow my head before that which, like empty space, has no support.’ I have left behind non-Buddhist paths. Since the mind is already undifferentiated, dharmas are also undifferentiated; since the mind is already unconditioned, dharmas are also unconditioned. The myriad dharmas all derive from transmutations of the mind. Therefore, [it is said,] ‘Since my mind is empty, all dharmas are empty; so too are the thousands of types and the myriad species.’ The realm of space that spreads out in all the ten directions is identical to the essence of the one mind. Since the mind is originally undifferentiated, dharmas also are undifferentiated. It is only because your views and understanding are not the same that distinctions appear. ‘It is just like all heavenly beings, who eat together from the same bejeweled bowl but, depending on their merit and virtue, the color of their meals is different.’ All the buddhas in the ten directions have in fact never attained even a modicum of dharma — this is called anuttara[samyaksaṃ]bodhi. There is only this one mind; there are no differentiated characteristics. It also has no luminosity or colorations, nothing superior or inferior. Since there is no superior, there are no characteristics of a buddha; since there is no inferior, there are no characteristics of a sentient being.'

When there is nothing found to grasp, nothing relied on, nothing obtained, that is the space like one mind without conceptualisation. So Huangbo repeats that in the next three quotes:

'There is only this one mind; there are no differentiated characteristics. It is also has no luminosity or colorations, nothing superior or inferior.'
'There is only the one mind, which involves neither identity nor difference, neither cause nor effect.'
'This immaculate self-nature is originally neither deluded nor awakened. The realm of empty space that entirely pervades the ten directions is intrinsically our one-mind essence.'

'This being the case, all the worlds of the ten directions are not separated from our one mind. Lands as numerous as tiny motes of dust are not separate from our one thought. Since this is so, how can we speak of what is inside and outside? It is like the nature of honey: if honey is sweet by nature, then all honey is sweet — you cannot say that a specific honey is sweet while the rest is bitter. Where would such a thing be possible? Therefore, it is said, ‘Empty space has neither inside nor outside’; so too is it with the dharma nature. Empty space has no middle; so too is it with the dharma nature. Therefore sentient beings are buddhas and buddhas are sentient beings.'

It is not the case that on the one hand there is one mind, and on the other there are everything else. All are such already. It's only grasping at characteristics, taking things to be real and essential, that one is led into differentiating conceptualisation.

'If you can avoid clinging to a single sign, then it is said,
In this way, the one mind,
is assiduously adorned with skillful means.'

For the last quote again the same stanza from the Brahma Net Sutra as above that brings one mind to not clinging to characteristics, translated here as sign.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2022 at 5:12 PM
Title: Re: Giant vehicle
Content:
yinyangkoi said:
Mahayana means great vehicle. How would you call an even bigger vehicle? A giant vehicle? In Sanskrit

Astus wrote:
The term for the highest/supreme vehicle is agrayāna (最上乘), as found in e.g. the Diamond Sutra, the Gaganaganjapariprccha Sutra, the Mahayanasutralamkara, and the Ratnagotravibhaga, but it's generally synonymous with Mahayana. One example where it becomes something higher than Mahayana is where Chan is called the highest vehicle.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2022 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula
Content:
SaaZ said:
When you say that the idea of momentariness is post-canonical, you mean that It start to appear consistently only in later text?

Astus wrote:
'The cursory examination of the still-extant Abhidharmapitakas undertaken in this chapter suggests that in them, as in the Nikayas/Agamas, the theory of momentariness is not postulated as a canonical doctrine and is only attested, if at all, as a sectarian stance to be refuted. This implies that the theory developed after the schism of the sects within certain schools and is in that sense a post-canonical development which, judging from the little evidence reviewed here, may date back as far as the first century A.D. and possibly even beyond.'
(The Buddhist Doctrine of Momentariness by Alexander von Rospatt, p 28)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2022 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Reference from a quote of W. Rahula
Content:
SaaZ said:
Is this quote present in the Pali canon? What is Paramatthajotika I? Does someone know if the same concept is present in some sutras of the pali canon (or even from Mahayana texts)?

Astus wrote:
It is found in the commentary to https://suttacentral.net/kp4/en/sujato (the https://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0501a.att4.xml ), to the first question, as a saying attributed to the Buddha. But as Rahula himself notes in his book, there is no sign of such a saying in the canon itself. It is also unlikely to be found, since the idea of momentariness is post-canonical.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2022 at 7:02 PM
Title: Re: Bodhisattva's austerities in the Agamas; going naked, letting his grow etc.
Content:
Aemilius said:
Some books on the life of Gautama tell concerning the ascetism of Siddhartha: "For six long years he continued to undergo fasts  and penances, until his body was so wasted that no one seeing him would have recognozed the noble Prince Siddhatha. But his fame as a saintly man spread aboard like a sound of a great bell hung in the sky, as the old stories tell us."

Found in The Story of the Buddha, Edith Holland, London 1923, reprint Delhi 2003.
Also mentioned in Who is the Buddha?, Sangharakshita, Windhorse 1994.

Astus wrote:
A similar statement is found in the Chinese version of the Buddhacarita, that is a likely source of the above.

From https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe19/sbe1914.htm published in 1883:
'His spirit free, his body light and refined, his name spreading far and wide, as 'highly gifted,' even as the moon when first produced, or as the Kumuda flower spreading out its sweetness; Everywhere thro’ the country his excellent fame extended; the daughters of the lord of the place both coming to see him'

And from Charles Willemen's translation (XII.80, BDK ed, p 89):
'His spirit was empty and his body was shrunken, but his famous virtue became widely renowned. It was like the opening up of a kumuda flower when the moon has just risen. His excellent fame spread all over the land. Men and women rivaled to come and see him.'

However, there's nothing like that in the Sanskrit version, as translated by E.B. Cowell in 1894. See the same section in chapter 12 from verse 89 https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Buddhacarita/12-Book-XII.htm.

And the opposite image is given in the Lalitavistara:

'Those who passed by the Bodhisattva, such as village boys or girls, ox herders, cow herders, grass collectors, wood collectors, and those looking for dung, all thought he was a demon made of dust. They made fun of him and sprinkled him with dust.'
( https://read.84000.co/translation/toh95.html#UT22084-046-001-1239 )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2022 at 3:40 PM
Title: Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?
Content:
Tao said:
Very nice.
Thank you a lot for your translation.

Astus wrote:
It's https://eas.arizona.edu/people/awelter 's translation from the book https://books.google.hu/books?id=2Kc-zsuweBoC.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2022 at 4:17 PM
Title: Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Yongming Yanshou wrote ten questions to measure one's comprehension, https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=153592#p153592.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2022 at 3:44 PM
Title: Re: "Unsystematic Attention" in Tathagatagharba thought
Content:
Astus wrote:
And if they ask: ‘What is the cause, what is the reason why delusion arises, and once arisen it increases and grows?’
You should say: ‘Improper attention. When you attend improperly, delusion arises, and once arisen it increases and grows. This is the cause, this is the reason why delusion arises, and once arisen it increases and grows.’
( https://suttacentral.net/an3.68/en/sujato )

ignorance < five hindrances < three kinds of misconduct < lack of sense restraint < lack of mindfulness and situational awareness < improper attention (ayonisomanasikāra) < lack of faith < listening to an untrue teaching < associating with bad people
( https://suttacentral.net/an10.61/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2022 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?
Content:
bartolomay said:
Is there any unmistaken signs of realization?

Astus wrote:
For a stream enterer there is the mirror of the teaching, see e.g. https://suttacentral.net/sn55.8/en/sujato, and also the other discourses in SN 55.
For an arhat see e.g. https://suttacentral.net/sn35.153/en/sujato.

For bodhisattvas see e.g. https://read.84000.co/translation/toh44-31.html, and commentaries like http://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/SZPPS-EO_book_page.htm.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2022 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: “special transmission”?
Content:
oryoki said:
There is an interesting free PDF article on the subject of “transmission” by Zen Teacher Jeff Shore entitled “THE SOURCE OF ZEN: WHO TRANSMITS WHAT?”
It can be found and downloaded here (in English):
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/JeffShore.html

Astus wrote:
There's more from him on his website: https://beingwithoutself.org/dharma-talks/transcribed-talks-pdf/


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 27th, 2022 at 5:29 PM
Title: Re: "Radical" Ekayāna and the liberation of non-Buddhists?
Content:
Astus wrote:
For the one vehicle perspective to culminate in buddhahood the two vehicles' attainment has to be temporary, and that is explained by some attachments still remaining for them. Furthermore, in order to exist a path to buddhahood that is shorter than the minimum three incalculable aeons, the innumerable buddha qualities that otherwise would have to be accumulated over time must be present as buddha nature and revealed with the elimination of all clinging. Therefore the entirety of attachments is removed solely by wisdom.

'O Lord, the wisdom of the tathāgatagarbha is the Tathāgata’s wisdom of emptiness (śūnyatā). O Lord, the tathāgatagarbha has not been seen nor attained originally by all the arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and powerful bodhisattvas.'
(Sūtra of Queen Śrīmālā of the Lion’s Roar, ch 9, BDK ed, p 37)

'There is nothing to be removed from this
And not the slightest to be added.
Actual reality is to be seen as it really is—
Whoever sees actual reality is liberated.
The basic element is empty of what is adventitious,
Which has the characteristic of being separable.
It is not empty of the unsurpassable attributes,
Which have the characteristic of being inseparable.'
(Uttaratantra I.154-155, tr Brunnhölzl; v 154 is from https://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-masters/nagarjuna/heart-dependent-origination )

'Since generosity just leads to wealth,
Discipline [just leads to] heaven, and meditation [just] relinquishes the afflictions,
While prajñā eliminates all afflictive and cognitive [obscurations],
It is supreme, and its cause is to study this [dharma].
...
Conceptions in terms of the three spheres
Are asserted as the cognitive obscurations.
Antagonistic factors such as envy
Are held to be the afflictive obscurations.
Without prajñā, the other [paramitas] do not represent
The causes for relinquishing these [obscurations].
Therefore, prajñā is the highest one, and its root
Is study, so study is supreme [too].'
(Uttaratantra V.6, 14-15 / v 382, 390-391, tr Brunnhölzl)

'In the expository, causal vehicle of the paramitas, the sugatagarbha or buddha-nature is considered to be present in the minds of beings only as a seed. When this is fully developed through circumstantial conditions— in other words, the two accumulations (of merit and wisdom)— buddhahood is attained. And since the cause comes first and its result after, one speaks in this case of a causal vehicle.
By contrast, the Mantrayana, the vehicle of mantra, proclaims that all beings are by nature endowed with the sugatagarbha, wherein all enlightened qualities are spontaneously present. The buddha-nature is the ground or basis of purification. It is compared with the sun; and like the sun concealed by clouds, the sugatagarbha is veiled by compounded or conditioned states of mind, which are adventitious to it.'
(Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 2, p 86)

'If the meaning of emptiness does not dwell within the mind, we cannot attain liberation by means of the other virtues. ... When one is endowed with the meaning of emptiness, there is not a single thing which in not included in this path.'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 251, 252)

'With mind like wood or stone, not explaining anything with the mouth, mind not going anywhere, then the mind ground becomes like space, wherein the sun of wisdom naturally appears. It is as though the clouds had opened and the sun emerged.
Just put an end to all fettering connections, and feelings of greed, hatred, craving, defilement and purity all come to an end. Unmoved in the face of the five desires and eight influences, not choked up by seeing, hearing, discerning or knowing, not confused by anything, naturally endowed with all virtues and the inconceivable use of all paranormal powers, this is someone who is free.'
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 78)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 25th, 2022 at 2:12 PM
Title: Re: another question about rebirth
Content:
clyde said:
I’ve experienced many of the teachings of the Buddha directly, but I haven’t experienced the ālāyavijñāna, so I can’t say anything directly about it, even if it exists.

Astus wrote:
It's not to be experienced, because it cannot be experienced.

clyde said:
But if it exists, it’s a dharma, and all dharmas are impermanent, arising with causes and conditions and ceasing, and empty of self. It’s not the case that processes have a self, it’s that we impute a self to them by seeing them as personal. So, when asked if there is a “separate, personal ālāyavijñāna”, if one answers “Yes”, then that imputes a self.

Astus wrote:
Compounded things are impermanent, but not all dharmas are compounded. The storehouse consciousness is not a dharma. The body is individual, but it does not become a self because of that.

clyde said:
Of course we see our lives as continuous from day to day, year after year.

Astus wrote:
And that's because of not recognising impermanence on a subtler level. The six consciousnesses do not cease merely at death, but practically every moment. So if it's problematic what connects one life to the next, it's also problematic what connects one conscious moment with another. That is a good topic to investigate experientially.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 22nd, 2022 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: Zen question
Content:
master of puppets said:
what is it that simple?

Astus wrote:
'When a mendicant has heard that nothing is worth insisting on, they directly know all things. Directly knowing all things, they completely understand all things.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn35.80/en/sujato; also AN 7.61, MN 37)

'The essence of the Way is detachment.'
(Wake-up Sermon, in The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, p 47; X63, no. 1219, p. 5c9)

'To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 30; T48, no. 2008, p. 350b29)

“Sāriputta, I can teach the Dhamma briefly; I can teach the Dhamma in detail; I can teach the Dhamma both briefly and in detail. It is those who can understand that are rare.”
( https://suttacentral.net/an3.33/en/bodhi )

‘What is the essence of the Buddha-dharma?’ asked Bai.
‘To refrain from all evil and do all that is good,’ answered the master.
‘A three-year-old child already knows these words,’ said Bai.
‘Although a three-year-old can say them, an old man of eighty can’t put them into practice!’ countered the master.
(Chan Master Hangzhou Niaoke Daolin, in Records of the Transmission of the Lamp, vol 2, 4.54; T51, no. 2076, p. 230b24-27)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 20th, 2022 at 4:29 PM
Title: Re: another question about rebirth
Content:
Astus wrote:
Here are some straightforward words from the great master Jinul on the matters of mind and rebirth.

First one should be able to distinguish body and mind:

'From morning to evening, throughout the twelve periods of the day, during all your actions and activities—whether you are hearing or seeing, laughing or talking, angry or happy, engaging in propriety or impropriety —speak! Ultimately who is it that is able to perform all these actions? If you say that it is the physical body that is acting, then at the moment when a person’s life comes to an end, even though the body has not yet decayed, how is it that the eyes cannot see, the ears cannot hear, the nose cannot smell, the tongue cannot talk, the body cannot move, the hands cannot grasp, and the feet cannot run? You should know that what is capable of seeing, hearing, moving, and acting is perforce your original mind; it is not your physical body.'
(Moguja’s Secrets on Cultivating the Mind, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 220)

Then see how the mind, when driven by passions, is trapped in the beginningless cyble of rebirth:

'If you are not stabilized in the tranquil thought of dhyāna, your activating consciousness (ŏpsik 業識) will drift, with no foundation upon which to ground itself. At the moment of your death, wind and fire will oppress you, the four material elements (mahābhūta) will separate and scatter, and the mind will go mad, feeling stifled and cramped, and become subject to the inversions (viparyāsa) and distorted views. As you have no stratagem for soaring into the heavens above nor any plan through which to enter the earth below, you will cower in fright, bereft of everything on which you used to rely. Your physical body will be left behind as if it were a cicada’s cast-off shell. Confused about the road stretching before you, your lonely spirit will have to go on alone. Although you may have owned precious jewelry and priceless riches, you can take none of it with you. Although you may have relatives from prestigious households, ultimately not one of them can follow along behind to rescue you. This is what is meant by the statement, “What one makes oneself, one receives oneself; there is no one to take one’s place.”'
(Encouragement to Practice: The Compact of the Samādhi and Prajñā Society, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 141)

And the situation of the awakened ones:

'Now, those who penetrate to the true mind tally with the enlightened nature, which is not subject to arising and ceasing, and give rise to the sublime functioning, which is also not subject to arising and ceasing. Their sublime essence is real, eternal, and originally free of arising and ceasing, but their sublime functioning adapts to the environment and seems to display arising and ceasing. Nevertheless, since the function arises from the essence, function and essence are identical; thus how can there be any arising and ceasing? Because accomplished men have realized that true essence, could arising and ceasing intrude in any way? It is like water: moisture is its essence and waves are its function. Since the moist nature of water is forever unchanging, how can the moist nature within the waves change? But as waves cannot exist apart from that moist nature, they too are unchanging. For this reason the ancients said, "The whole earth is the one proper eye of this śramaṇa. The whole earth is a Saṃgharāma [monastery]  - a sanctuary for the man who has awakened to the noumenon."
Once a person has penetrated to the true mind, the four kinds of birth and the six destinies instantly disappear. The mountains, the rivers, and the great earth are all discovered to be the true mind. Hence it is impossible that there could be any other refuge apart from this true mind. Since there are then no more false causes within the triple world, there can be no false results of rebirth in its six destinies. And if there are no false results, what refuge can be spoken of? There is no separate "this" or "that"; and since there is no "this" or "that," how can there be right and wrong? All the worlds in the ten directions are only this one true mind; the whole body is their reward - there is no refuge distinct from it.
In the teaching about the Buddhas' and bodhisattvas' exhibition of special skills and powers, it is explained that we may take rebirth at will without obstacles or hindrances. As it is stated in the Transmission of the Lamp: The presiding minister Wen-ts'ao asked Master Kuei-feng, "After men who have awakened to the noumenon complete this life, where is their refuge?"
Kuei-feng answered, "There are no sentient beings who are not invested with the numinous and bright enlightened nature which is not different from that of all the Buddhas. If you can awaken to the fact that this nature is the dharmakāya and realize that originally you are unborn, then what need is there for a refuge? The numinous brightness is not obscured; it is clear and constantly aware. There is no place from which it came, and no place to which it will go. Only the void calmness can be considered to be your own essence; do not suppose that your essence is your physical body. The numinous awareness is your own mind; do not suppose that your mind is the deluded thoughts. If deluded thoughts arise, never follow them - then, when you are about to die, karma cannot bind you. Although you enter the intermediate state between rebirths, the direction you take is entirely up to you. Whether you go to the realm of gods or the realm of humans, you are free to take any refuge you want." This is the destination of the true mind after the dissolution of the body.'
(Straight Talk on the True Mind, in The Collected Works of Chinul, p 183-184)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2022 at 7:47 PM
Title: Re: another question about rebirth
Content:
reiun said:
And the essence of that emptiness is Buddhanature, which is nondual.

Astus wrote:
Emptiness means lack of essence. Because some might mistake emptiness for a thing, it's also stated that even emtpiness is empty of any essence. And as you say, emptiness is non-dual, and can be also called buddha nature.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 19th, 2022 at 2:27 PM
Title: Re: another question about rebirth
Content:
reiun said:
In Zen mind is Buddha.

Astus wrote:
Because the mind is imaginary, essentially empty.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 17th, 2022 at 3:33 PM
Title: Re: another question about rebirth
Content:
Astus wrote:
A mind, even one's own, is an inference, a mere linguistic construct. So it is with others' too.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 16th, 2022 at 3:58 AM
Title: Re: "Radical" Ekayāna and the liberation of non-Buddhists?
Content:
Anders said:
For the quickest finish, there's shravakayana.

Astus wrote:
In the triyana version yes, but not if there's only one vehicle. As for the possibility of buddhahood in this life, it depends on whether one accepts buddha-nature as complete with all buddha qualities or not.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2022 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: Bodhisattva's austerities in the Agamas; going naked, letting his grow etc.
Content:
Aemilius said:
Because the world knew and had heard about the ascetic Gautama, they expected that he might attain something one day. If he had just left the palace and walked to to the Bodhi-tree in his silken garments, wearing his golden ornaments, fresh like a flower from a warm bath, do you think he would have attained anything?

Astus wrote:
The Buddha wasn't famous because he practised for a short period self-mortification and got an emaciated body, and he himself said it was of no use for his subsequent attainment of liberation. Some people also knew him because he was a son of a ruler, but it doesn't mean we should all live a luxurious life.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2022 at 2:55 PM
Title: Re: Bodhisattva's austerities in the Agamas; going naked, letting his grow etc.
Content:
Malcolm said:
Much prefer the witches sabbath, getting naked in the moonlight, dancing around fires, broomsticks...

Astus wrote:
Uposatha and ganacakra are not exclusive, are they? (reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYJQGSapz-A )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 14th, 2022 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: Bodhisattva's austerities in the Agamas; going naked, letting his grow etc.
Content:
Sādhaka said:
for the moment we can at least say that Buddhist & Bönpo monks (in all traditions as far as I’m aware) are usually doing intermittent-fasting for about 17-20 hours a day on average, and not usually eating anything after solar noon.

Astus wrote:
It is not called fasting but it is one of the precepts for monastics.

“Mendicants, I eat my food in one sitting per day. Doing so, I find that I’m healthy and well, nimble, strong, and living comfortably. You too should eat your food in one sitting per day. Doing so, you’ll find that you’re healthy and well, nimble, strong, and living comfortably.”
( https://suttacentral.net/mn65/en/sujato )

It's a precept also observed by lay people during uposatha/sabbath:

‘As long as they live, the perfected ones eat in one part of the day, abstaining from eating at night and from food at the wrong time. I, too, for this day and night will eat in one part of the day, abstaining from eating at night and food at the wrong time. I will observe the sabbath by doing as the perfected ones do in this respect.’
( https://suttacentral.net/an3.70/en/sujato, https://suttacentral.net/an8.41/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2022 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Bodhisattva's austerities in the Agamas; going naked, letting his grow etc.
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Indeed; there are many benefits of achieving metabolic flexibility through intermittent fasting and occasional prolonged fasting routines.

Astus wrote:
Similar practices are told about some contemporaries of the Buddha that are 'not the legitimate development of physical endurance in the noble one’s training' ( https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/sujato ):

'“But Aggivessana, what have you heard about the development of physical endurance?”

“Take, for example, Nanda Vaccha, Kisa Saṅkicca, and Makkhali Gosāla. They go naked, ignoring conventions. They lick their hands, and don’t come or wait when called. They don’t consent to food brought to them, or food prepared on purpose for them, or an invitation for a meal. They don’t receive anything from a pot or bowl; or from someone who keeps sheep, or who has a weapon or a shovel in their home; or where a couple is eating; or where there is a woman who is pregnant, breastfeeding, or who has a man in her home; or where there’s a dog waiting or flies buzzing. They accept no fish or meat or liquor or wine, and drink no beer. They go to just one house for alms, taking just one mouthful, or two houses and two mouthfuls, up to seven houses and seven mouthfuls. They feed on one saucer a day, two saucers a day, up to seven saucers a day. They eat once a day, once every second day, up to once a week, and so on, even up to once a fortnight. They live committed to the practice of eating food at set intervals.”

“But Aggivessana, do they get by on so little?”

“No, Master Gotama. Sometimes they eat a variety of luxury foods and drink a variety of luxury beverages. They gather their body’s strength, build it up, and get fat.”

“What they earlier gave up, they later got back. That is how there is the increase and decrease of this body. But Aggivessana, what have you heard about development of the mind?” When Saccaka was questioned by the Buddha about development of the mind, he was stumped.

So the Buddha said to Saccaka, “The development of physical endurance that you have described is not the legitimate development of physical endurance in the noble one’s training. And since you don’t even understand the development of physical endurance, how can you possibly understand the development of the mind?”'


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2022 at 4:58 PM
Title: Re: Bodhisattva's austerities in the Agamas; going naked, letting his grow etc.
Content:
Aemilius said:
Also, fasting etc are not completely without results.

Astus wrote:
It is stated explicitly both in your above quote of EA 31.8:

'During those six years of diligent hardship pursuing awakening, I hadn’t won anything.'

and in MN 36:

'But I have not achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones by this severe, grueling work.'

Aemilius said:
As the Bhagavan Shakyamuni himself says, he developed or manifested equanimity/nonhatred towards unpleasant circumstances through these ascetic practices.

Astus wrote:
It's merely stated that his mind was not moved by the pleasant and painful feelings, not that it was by developed because of asceticism.

As the Buddha told Mara:
'I realized that it’s pointless; all that mortification in search of immortality is as futile as oars and rudder on dry land. Ethics, immersion, and wisdom: by developing this path to awakening I attained ultimate purity.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn4.1/en/sujato )

And from https://suttacentral.net/ea19.2/en/huyenvi-boinwebb-pasadika ( https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama/ekottarika/19/EA_19_02.html ):

'There are two modes of behaviour which a person in quest of the highest truth should avoid. Which are the two? Desiring, craving for objects of sensual pleasure which by its nature is low, vulgar and unprofitable. On the other hand, all sorts of mortification, many acts of harming and endless tormenting thoughts. These are the two modes of behaviour which a person in quest of the highest truth should avoid. Having given up these two modes of behaviour, on my own I gained the highest truth and became fully enlightened.'

More on the subject of self-mortification see e.g. https://suttacentral.net/dn25/en/sujato

As for what the Buddha regularly taught regarding eating, it was moderation (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/an3.16/en/sujato ):

'And how does a mendicant eat in moderation? It’s when a mendicant reflects properly on the food that they eat: ‘Not for fun, indulgence, adornment, or decoration, but only to sustain this body, to avoid harm, and to support spiritual practice. In this way, I shall put an end to old discomfort and not give rise to new discomfort, and I will live blamelessly and at ease.’ That’s how a mendicant eats in moderation.'


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 13th, 2022 at 3:13 PM
Title: Re: "Radical" Ekayāna and the liberation of non-Buddhists?
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
I have tended to believe that all valid Mahayana and Vajrayana paths lead to the same final desirable outcome, whatever term we use for it.

Astus wrote:
Let me highlight the difference that was stated:

Malcolm said:
From the point of view of secret mantra, common Mahāyāna does not teach the path of attaining buddhahood in a single lifetime, soup to nuts.

FiveSkandhas said:
cavalerly and universally dismiss nearly 2000 years of profound East Asian doctrine and practice as somehow universally "inferior" to what goes on in the Himalayas.

Astus wrote:
Neither a teaching's history, nor its popularity is an attribute to qualify its content as this or that, otherwise Gautama should have just accepted the Vedas.

FiveSkandhas said:
It just feels kind of like that sort of thing is more rooted in hustling for prestige and power and not purely a matter of selfless Dharmic exploration.

Astus wrote:
Not necessarily so. Also, every Buddhist tradition subscribes to generally the same basis expressed most succictly in the four noble truths. When it comes to one method or doctrine being superior to another, one should look at the criteria used and the context applied to. The fundamental outline of the path is the same anyhow: the three trainings, calm and insight, and elimination of attachment. Again, it's not anything debated. One can perhaps argue that visualising oneself as Tara is a quicker way to achieve samadhi than reciting Amituofo, but it's more likely up to the individual's inclinations.

'There are no sudden and gradual in the Dharma,
It is delusion and enlightenment that are slow or fast.
It is only this teaching of seeing the nature
Which stupid people cannot comprehend.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 34)

'To sum up what is essential: the view conceiving the existence of the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha as well as the view conceiving the existence of nirvāṇa—views such as these which conceive the existence of something to be gained are just strains of thought rooted in attachment. As for “attachment,” this is what is referred to as “wrong view.” Why? Persons with wrong views are those who circulate about within the three realms remaining eternally separated from the essential means of escape. This person who indulges in attachments is of just this very sort. He remains eternally separated from the essential means of escape and thus, even to the very end, remains unable to realize anuttara-samyak-saṃbodhi.'
(Vasubandhu's Treatise on the Bodhisattva Vow, ch 10)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 11th, 2022 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: "Radical" Ekayāna and the liberation of non-Buddhists?
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
Well, as I noted above, the old 神仏習合Shinto-Buddhist Combinatory religion is generally considered heterodox by today's Buddhists inside and outside Japan, and in fact it was outlawed by the government in the Mid-1800s. Interestingly, tiny remnants remain here and there in the country, and there is a recent trend to revive certain aspects of the tradition.

Astus wrote:
In general there's nothing against worshipping all sorts of samsaric deities, as long as one does not expect liberation through such an act and it does not involve committing evil deeds.

It is a proper use of wealth to make offerings to gods:

'Furthermore, with his legitimate wealth he makes five spirit-offerings (pañcabali): to relatives, guests, ancestors, king, and deities (devatābali).'
(AN 4.61 & AN 5.41)

And in return gods should protect their worshippers:

'So pay heed, all you beings,
have love for humankind,
who day and night bring offerings (bali);
please protect them diligently.'
(Snp 2.1)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 10th, 2022 at 7:02 PM
Title: Re: "Radical" Ekayāna and the liberation of non-Buddhists?
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
However the quotes above don't seem to explicitly deny the possibility of a faster path to liberation.

Astus wrote:
The very meaning of ekayana is that there is a single path, not many, so faster and slower ways do not exist, only people on different stages with various capacities.

FiveSkandhas said:
Worshipping a relevant Kami was said to be an expedient path for Japan's people to reach whichever Buddha or Bodhisattva the kami in question was considered a "projection" of... perhaps even a faster and more suitable way than directly addressing the Buddhist figure in question (although that went on too of course).

Astus wrote:
Neither recalling deities (devatānusmṛti) nor recalling buddhas (buddhānusmṛti) are sufficient methods for liberation on their own, but they can lead to concentration, concentration to wisdom, and wisdom to awakening.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 10th, 2022 at 4:49 PM
Title: Re: "Radical" Ekayāna and the liberation of non-Buddhists?
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
Can we then conclude, for example, that a virtuous practitioner of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or Hinduism could in fact achieve Buddhist liberation through their faith? And based on the Ksitigarbha-related Sutra, could we conceive of, say, Shakyamuni Buddha taking on the form of Christ and saving (or at least "helping") a Christian worshipping what he believes to be Christ?

Astus wrote:
It's merely subsuming other religions under a Buddhist umbrella, it doesn't mean other paths on their own lead to liberation, but like shravakayana turns into bodhisattvayana, so good tirthikas eventually become Buddhists.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 9th, 2022 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Bodhisattva's austerities in the Agamas; going naked, letting his grow etc.
Content:
Aemilius said:
If you eat a vegetarian meal once aday, it is usually called fasting in  the modern dietary teachings that you can read in various colorful magazines. There are several different varieties in this.

Astus wrote:
Eating only once or twice a day until noon is the Pratimoksha regulation, and it's also observed on certain days by devout lay people.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2022 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Bodhisattva's austerities in the Agamas; going naked, letting his grow etc.
Content:
Astus wrote:
Looks like the standard account of the hardships Gautama went through that proved to be completely futile and meaningless: https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/sujato.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2022 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Agamas in Mahayana
Content:
DNS said:
The Chinese Agamas are very similar to the Pali Nikayas so I believe are relied on heavily within the Chan tradition.

Astus wrote:
Chan is a Mahayana school, and as such its primary scriptural references are Mahayana sutras. As it's famously said by Bodhidharma to Huike:

"I have the Laṅkāvatāra Sutra in four chapters which is also to be transmitted to you; this is the essential gate to the Tathāgata’s teachings on the Heart-ground and makes it possible for all beings to enter awakening."
(Records of the Transmission of the Lamp, vol 1, 3.35)

And as once Huineng was told:

"Great Master [Hongren] always exhorts both monks and laymen to simply maintain the Diamond Sutra, so that one can see the [self]-nature by oneself and achieve buddhahood directly and completely."
(Platform Sutra, ch 1, BDK ed, p 18)

Also Huineng himself said:

"Good friends, if you wish to enter into the profound dharmadhātu and the samādhi of prajñā, you must cultivate the practice of prajñā and recite the Diamond Sutra. Thus will you attain seeing the nature. You should realize that the merits of thissutra are immeasurable and unlimited. They are clearly praised within the sutra; I cannot explain them fully here. This teaching is the Supreme Vehicle: it is preached for those of great wisdom, it is preached for those of superior capacities."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 31)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 8th, 2022 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Agamas in Mahayana
Content:
Tennyson said:
I received some interesting responses, and I was wondering if I could ask the question of you folks since I'm interested in hearing more about the use and relevance of the Agamas or other early texts in Mahayana Buddhism.

Astus wrote:
There is only a mere handful of agama sutras in the Tibetan canon, while in Chinese there are four almost complete collections and some other individual texts. They have been preserved but were very much irrelevant to virtually everyone until the 20th century.

Tennyson said:
I'm very fascinated by the history and development of different Buddhist schools/sects and how each sect's unique beliefs relate to what one could call the "basics" of Buddhist teaching: Four Noble Truths, Not-Self, etc.

Astus wrote:
Basic Buddhist concepts are not the same as the prevalence of the use of agama scriptures, since those concepts are also found in Mahayana sutras and treatises.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 6th, 2022 at 7:02 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Content:
ajhayes said:
Is it fair to state that Mahamudra (TB in general, perhaps) approaches the real world in a mystical way while Zen approaches the mystical side realistically?

Astus wrote:
To be fair would require some definitions of those terms. Otherwise, they look like exaggerated generalisations based on little information about either of the traditions.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 1st, 2022 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Who?
Content:
clyde said:
What did the Buddha mean when he taught this? Who is sure to become old, ill and die? Who will be separated and parted? Who is the owner and heir? Who is it that does good or evil?

Astus wrote:
The https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-062-010.html is a good summary on the matter:

"How is the conditional relation in inner dependent arising to be seen? As due to the coming together of six elements. As due to the coming together of what six elements? Namely, the conditional relation in inner dependent arising is to be seen as due to the coming together of the elements of earth, water, fire, wind, space, and consciousness.
...
In this process, the earth element does not think, ‘I provide the solidity of the body by assembling.’ Nor does the water element think, ‘I provide cohesion for the body.’ Nor does the fire element think, ‘I digest whatever the body eats, drinks, chews, or tastes.’ [F.119.b] Nor does the wind element think, ‘I perform the function of the body’s inhalation and exhalation.’ Nor does the space element think, ‘I create hollow spaces inside the body.’ Nor does the element of consciousness think, ‘I produce the name and form of the body.’ Nor does the body think, ‘I am produced by these conditions.’ Yet, when these conditions are present, the body is born.
The earth element is not a self, not a being, not a life force, not a creature, not a human, not a person, not female, not male, not neuter, not me, not mine, and not anybody else’s.
Similarly, the water element, the fire element, the wind element, the space element, and the consciousness element are also not a self, not a being, not a life force, not a creature, not a human, not a person, not female, not male, not neuter, not me, not mine, and not anybody else’s."

In Mazu Daoyi's words (Sun-Face Buddha, p 63):

"Since limitless kalpas, all worldly false thinking, [such as] flattery, dishonesty, self-esteem, and arrogance have formed one body. That is why the sutra says, 'It is only through the grouping of many dharmas that this body is formed. When it arises, it is only dharmas arising; when it ceases, it is only dharmas ceasing. When the dharmas arise, they do not say I arise; when they cease, they do not say I cease.'"

The sutra reference is from the https://read.84000.co/translation/toh176.html#UT22084-060-005-202:

"The body is the issue of the four main elements, and in these elements there is no owner and no agent. There is no self in this body, and, except for arbitrary insistence on self, ultimately no ‘I’ which can be said to be sick can be apprehended. Therefore, thinking, ‘ “I” should not adhere to any self, and “I” should rest in the knowledge of the root of illness,’ he should abandon the conception of himself as a personality and produce the conception of himself as a thing, thinking, ‘This body is an aggregate of many things. When it is born, only things are born; when it ceases, only things cease. These things have no awareness or feeling of each other. When they are born, they do not think, “I am born”; when they cease, they do not think, “I cease.” ’
Furthermore, he should understand thoroughly the conception of himself as a thing by cultivating the following consideration: ‘Just as in the case of the conception of “self,” so the conception of “thing” is also a misunderstanding, and this misunderstanding is also a grave sickness; I should free myself from this sickness and should strive to abandon it.’
What is the elimination of this sickness? It is the elimination of egoism and possessiveness. What is the elimination of egoism and possessiveness? It is the freedom from dualism. What is freedom from dualism? It is the absence of involvement with either the external or the internal. What is absence of involvement with either external or internal? It is non-deviation, non-fluctuation, and non-distraction from sameness. What is sameness? It is the sameness of everything from self to liberation. Why? Because both self and liberation are void. How can both be void? As verbal designations, they both are void, and neither is established in reality. Therefore, one who sees such sameness makes no difference between sickness and voidness; his sickness is itself voidness, and that sickness as voidness is itself void."


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 31st, 2022 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Pure Land and Chan have been practised together for many centuries in China, Korea, and Vietnam. Here are some readily available works that can introduce you to how it's done (you might start with the third one's (Dialogs with Ancient Masters) first chapter to clarify some doubts):

https://ymba.org/books/buddhism-wisdom-faith-pure-land-principles-and-practice (a modern summary)
https://ymba.org/books/pure-land-patriarchs (teachings by a Chan master)
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/pureland.pdf (teachings by Tiantai founder Zhiyi and a Chan master)
https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/yin_kuang.pdf (letters by a modern Pure Land master)
http://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/EN060.pdf (teachings by Chan masters)
https://ymba.org/books/taming-monkey-mind-guide-pure-land-practice (various methods of buddha-remembrance)
https://ymba.org/books/mind-seal-buddhas (Amitabha Sutra commentary)


