﻿Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 21st, 2020 at 3:56 PM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
Malcolm said:
Who says they are fictional? On what basis are these claims for the fictionality of Chan lineages made? What assumptions drive such claims of inauthenticity?

Astus wrote:
From https://beingwithoutself.org/jeff/, a Rinzai Zen teacher and a professor at Hanazono University:

'Why, and from where, did the lineage-transmission legend arise? As Zen begins to take root in the West many Zennists naturally are attracted to this myth; some even naively believe it is literally true. They think that obtaining accouterment associated with lineage transmission somehow proves their Zen is authentic. Perhaps it just reflects a fundamental lack of awakening. A brief review of the historical development of the lineage-transmission legend will dispel some of the preposterous misconceptions surrounding it. 
In the early Tang dynasty, a good 1,300 years ago, not just Zen, but other Buddhist schools were under pressure to at least prove their legitimacy, at best gain position and prestige from the vying political powers. The Chinese T’ien-t’ai [Jp.: Tendai ] school was active in this before the nascent “Ch’an” or Zen school was. In spite of the “Separate transmission apart from scripture, Not depending on words and letters” rhetoric, as already mentioned, the “Zen school” had relied on sutras — The Lankavatara Sutra in the transmission from Bodhidharma to the second patriarch, and later The Diamond Sutra. But by the eighth century attempts were made to trace back directly to Shakamuni through a spiritual lineage-transmission.
In short, various “Zen groups” then created a number of conflicting lineage transmission charts to try and gain legitimacy. These lineage charts were based on imperial cult lineage and modified Confucian ancestor worship. A “Buddha-family Line” was created to try and show that the present possessor was a direct spiritual descendent of Shakamuni. By tracing oneself back directly to Shakamuni rather than just to statements in a sutra, one could come out superior to the other Buddhist schools, and to other “illegitimate” lineages within the Zen school. Just as the emperor was the ruler over this world, the Zen patriarch was to be considered the ruler over the spiritual realm.
What we now naively view as “genuine” transmission-lineages in Zen Buddhism are largely dependent on vagaries of history and social-political plays for power. The pivotal figure is Kataku Jinne [Ho-tsê Shên-hui 670-762]. In an attempt to make himself the seventh patriarch, Jinne mounted an attack on the so-called “northern school” of Zen and argued forcefully for the legitimacy of his “southern school.” Using the obscurity of his teacher, now universally known as “the sixth patriarch,” to advantage, he based his attack on a strict patriarchal succession that he created, based on imperial cult lineage. Although the actual teachings of the two schools were virtually the same, Jinne denounced the teachings of the northern school. One of the reasons for his success was that he raised a huge amount of money — for military purposes — by selling a great number of ordination certificates in state-sponsored ceremonies.'
( https://beingwithoutself.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/sourceofzenwhotransmitswhat.pdf )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 21st, 2020 at 3:08 PM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
Dogen wrote favorably about the Lotus Sutra.

Astus wrote:
That Soto Zen takes Dogen as the standard source is itself a result of Menzan Zuiho's efforts, who based his reformation on the works of Dogen, that is, what is now understood as correct transmission is established on written sources, and not what was passed down as the "living tradition". Such a recognition of textual materials is what is missing.

Genjo Conan said:
Words and letters themselves can't ultimately convey the buddhadharma, but that doesn't mean that Zen denies the utility of words and letters; rather, they're necessary but not sufficient.

Astus wrote:
If by ultimate conveyance you mean the need of personal realisation, of course, that is how it's always been. However, if you mean that the sutras are not representative of the complete teachings of the Buddha, and there must be another source of the teachings - in other words, a special transmission of an unbroken lineage of ancestors - then there are problems.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 21st, 2020 at 2:58 PM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
You don't need to be a complete literalist either, but believing that the spiritual significance of your scriptures is basically bunk can't be good for one's practice.

Astus wrote:
I don't think that the value of the scriptures depend on believing in their attribution to the historical person of Shakyamuni, therefore it cannot cause problems whether they were actually stated by him or not. At the same time, to see a historical evolution of the scriptures and Buddhism in general can serve as an organising principle that does not downgrade one group and elevate another, thus providing a more open view of the whole of the received traditions than any interpretation limited to one specific school.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 21st, 2020 at 2:51 PM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
Malcolm said:
Who says they are fictional? On what basis are these claims for the fictionality of Chan lineages made? What assumptions drive such claims of inauthenticity?

Astus wrote:
It is based on documents available from various eras, many of them from the Dunhuang caves, that show how the list of Indian patriarchs developed to its current form through a century of changes, and there are also the developments of the first six patriarchs of China, and how eventually Huineng was accepted as the sixth. Just that is already enough to show how the very basis of an unbroken lineage from the Buddha is fictional.
Is there some conspiracy or bad intention to discredit the lineage claims? I don't see where or how, since they are not made by competing communities, unlike what happened when the position of the sixth patriarch was still debated, or when Chan groups had to establish themselves as legitimate, or when one Chan lineage claim was put against the other.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 21st, 2020 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
You can just look at the world of textual criticism of this sort ("Early Buddhism" is one of the best examples) to see that it quickly becomes a treasure hunt of sorts, and rarely brings people to actually practicing. To me, that is evidence enough that this approach is one that is only peripherally valuable to Dharma practice. Peripheral value like that has it's place, but once it becomes central it ceases to be Dharma practice.

Astus wrote:
I find https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/en/personen/analayo.html a great example of being both a scholar and practitioner, and actually using both areas to support the other.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 21st, 2020 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
What would an "answer to that challenge" look like, for you?

Astus wrote:
Looking at the history of Chan, there were times of growth and times of decline. For instance, the current state of Soto Zen is a result of reforms that happened in the 18th (as a summary: https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2548 ) and 19th (Meiji reforms) centuries. What might be a way to avoid the issue of lineage histories being fictional is a return to a more open view of Zen that is not apart from the sutras and other texts but rather co-existent with them.

Genjo Conan said:
I have a graduate degree in history, so it's not like I'm against the practice, but I don't believe that scholarship ought to dictate faith.  They're separate spheres.

Astus wrote:
You might like this one: http://www.acmuller.net/articles/zen_and_scholarship-bulgyohak.html


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 20th, 2020 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
Malcolm said:
What do the reasoning and arguments of buddhologists have to with buddhahood or the accounts of our own tradition? Why is it necessary to adopt a settler-colonialist perspective, which is foreign to Buddhadharma as a whole, as the measure by which we take stock of our own schools?

Astus wrote:
There is a shared field in the accounts of past events, where the traditional story says one thing, and historical documents say another, like in the case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moheyan. Furthermore, the very concept that one relies on a tradition - i.e. something transmitted to the present through past generations - invokes the assumption of validation through history. Only when authenticity is independent of the reliability of one's perception of history could it be said that verification of past events is irrelevant. Such freedom from historical constrains is said to be the quality of the Dharma, that it is readily visible (saṃdṛṣṭika) and timeless (akālika). The words of the Buddha are necessarily from the past transmitted to the present, therefore not free from historical circumstances, but the meaning delivered through them is immaterial, so while it is the meaning that matters more, it cannot be wholly removed from the words themselves.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 20th, 2020 at 7:49 PM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
Malcolm said:
Western, settler-colonialist,  historical perspective... I prefer the indigenous perspectives, which are many, varied, and don’t necessarily accept this idea of “earlier“ and “later” texts.

Astus wrote:
Wouldn't that result in an unnecessary isolation from the reasoning and arguments of modern scholarship in favour of other arguments that also claim to be based on reason? Just as it's been the practice of past teachers to address and respond to the views and doctrines of their own times, shouldn't that be followed today as well, especially in the field of Buddhist studies? Of course, this is not to say that everyone should occupy themselves with such matters, but at least some level of recognition of the need to be able to communicate Buddhism on the highest levels of human intellectual culture of our times would be beneficial.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 20th, 2020 at 3:48 PM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
Malcolm said:
All Buddhist sūtras and tantras are apocryphal, all of them, including the Pali Canon, etc., from a western scholastic point of view.

Astus wrote:
If the scriptures are viewed in a historical perspective, then there is still the matter of earlier and later materials. Furthermore, what are often called the Early Buddhist Texts necessarily form the fundamental doctrines, therefore anything of a later date is measured against those to see where they accord or diverge from them. It should also be recognised that the early texts do show a mostly coherent set of views and practices, so it's not like that just because there is no direct record of the Buddha talking then anything goes. While valid reasoning and direct perception should be the first points of reference, it is the harmony with the early texts that any later work can be called buddhavacana, as advised by https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato#dn16:4.4.7.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 20th, 2020 at 3:14 PM
Title: Re: Academic critiques and slandering the dharma
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
What I find somewhat challenging is the question of "apocryphal" texts and certain texts that could pose challenges to other texts. There is also the postmodern scholar's tendency to view doctrine as the child of economics or power politics. Too much Foucault gets tossed around.

Astus wrote:
Although there has been a significant growth of studies during the last few decades that showed how most of the important elements of Chan/Zen self-presentation as a "special transmission" is fabricated (and worse, fabricated with ill intentions), I have not seen anyone trying to answer that challenge, but rather things seem to continue as if such academic works did not exist at all. Although it might be that some in Japanese/Korean/Chinese academics try to work out a response. Not that it's anything new, after all, attacking the validity of the lineage was the tactics of both Tiantai and the various Chan factions.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 20th, 2020 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: Recommended commentary on the Shurangama Sutra thats not by Ven. Hsuan Hua?
Content:
nomono said:
Do you know if there are similar sutras like the Shurangama sutra that teach about the same concepts like True vs. False Mind etc.?

Astus wrote:
You might like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutra_of_Perfect_Enlightenment that is available in several translations ( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/sutra_of_perfect_enlightenment.html, https://bdkamerica.org/product/apocryphal-scriptures/, http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra49.html, http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.de/downloads/sutraofcompleteenlightenment.pdf ) and there are two commentaries as well ( https://books.google.com/books?id=GVeLJ16emHUC, https://books.google.com/books?id=qYHFAQAAQBAJ ). There's also the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrasamadhi-sutra available online (by http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra53a.html ), and there's a commentary too (by https://books.google.com/books?id=LY4BEAAAQBAJ ). While not a sutra, you should take a look at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awakening_of_Faith_in_the_Mahayana#:~:text=Awakening%20of%20Faith%20in%20the%20Mah%C4%81y%C4%81na%20%28reconstructed%20Sanskrit%20title%3A%20Mah%C4%81y%C4%81na,a%20text%20of%20Mahayana%20Buddhism., also available online ( https://bdkamerica.org/product/the-awakening-of-faith/, http://www.acmuller.net/download/LaiWhalen_Awakening-of-Faith.pdf, https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/taf/index.htm, https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/aof/index.htm ), plus a very new translation ( https://books.google.hu/books?id=EjGoDwAAQBAJ ) and there are some commentaries ( https://books.google.hu/books?id=h6RNAQAAMAAJ, https://books.google.hu/books?id=JvYKAAAAYAAJ ).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 19th, 2020 at 4:43 PM
Title: Re: Recommended commentary on the Shurangama Sutra thats not by Ven. Hsuan Hua?
Content:
nomono said:
Are there not other Masters/teachers that have written about this sutra?

Astus wrote:
The only other translation with some commentary in English that I know of is by Charles Luk http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 15th, 2020 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: What is zen to you?
Content:
FlareStar said:
How does that relate to black and white? Where is the connection? I see a headache and a lack of understanding being asserted in the case. How would you reconcile that with "apart from assertion and denial"?

Astus wrote:
Where is assertion and denial in black and white? Is black a yes and white a no, or the other way around? No matter what, things are as they are, so no need to complicate them. To put it in simpler terms,

'Where your mind stops for a moment, this is called the bodhi tree, [the site of enlightenment]. Your mind being unable to stop is called the tree of ignorance. There is nowhere that ignorance abides; it has no beginning and no end. If from moment to moment your mind cannot stop [its deluded stream of consciousness], then you climb the tree of ignorance. Then you enter among the various kinds of beings in the six planes of existence to wear fur on your body and horns on your head. If you can manage to stop, this is the body and realm of purity. If you are unborn for a moment, then you climb the tree of enlightenment.'
(The Recorded Sayings of Linji, in Three Chan Classics, BDK ed, p 34-35)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 14th, 2020 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: What is zen to you?
Content:
FlareStar said:
What does that mean?

Astus wrote:
It is 'apart from all permutations of assertion and denial'.

A monk asked Zhaozhou, “‘The supreme Way has no difficulties— just avoid discrimination.’ As soon as there are words spoken, this is discrimination. So how do you help people?”
Zhaozhou said, “Why don’t you quote this saying in full?”
The monk said, “I only remember up to here.”
Zhaozhou said, “It’s just this: ‘The supreme Way has no difficulties—just avoid discrimination.’”
(Blue Cliff Record, case 59, BDK ed, p 277)

Also:

'Actually, it is not hard to reach enlightenment if you do not grasp or reject. The poem encourages us to practice without attachment. As soon as you become attached to something, you lose the direction of the method.'
(Faith in Mind: A Guide to Ch'an Practice by Sheng Yen, p 99)

Furthermore:

'Negations of being and nonbeing are not expressions of a belief in a substantial, eternal being and in an annihilationist, nihilistic nonbeing. To take being as being leads one to take nonbeing as nonbeing. But to perceive dharmas without attachment to nonbeing is to discern the reality-mark of dharmas: in this manner, though one perceives being, one does so without grasping to marks. Since the dharma-marks thus perceived are markless marks, the mind of the sage is established in that which has no location.'
(Essays of Sengzhao, ch 1, in Three Short Treatises, BDK ed, p 63)

And:

'The faults of mental afflictions that torment 
Due to false knowledge do not arise 
To those who understand the meaning 
Of conceptualizations of real and unreal entities. 
If one possesses a locus, 
One becomes attached or detached; 
But the great beings who’re devoid of  locus, 
They have neither attachment nor detachment.'
( https://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/SixtyStanzas.pdf, v 57-58)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 14th, 2020 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: What is zen to you?
Content:
Astus wrote:
A monk asked Mazu, “Please indicate the meaning of Chan directly, apart from all permutations of assertion and denial.”
Mazu said, “I’m tired today and can’t explain for you. Go ask Zhizang.”
When the monk asked Zhizang, Zhizang said, “Why not ask the teacher?”
The monk said, “He told me to ask you.”
Zhizang said, “I have a headache today and can’t explain for you. Go ask Baizhang.”
When the monk asked Baizhang, Baizhang said, “At this point, after all, I don’t understand.”
When the monk related this to Mazu, Mazu said, “Zhizang’s head is white; Baizhang’s head is black.”
(Blue Cliff Record, case 73, BDK ed, p 324-325)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 12th, 2020 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: With regards to impermanence - what is permanent? Is Buddha or Buddhahood permanent?
Content:
Astus wrote:
All conditioned things are impermanent, only what is unconditioned is permanent.

And for the Mahayana point of view, the Samdhinirmocana Sutra puts it nicely (ch 2, BDK ed, p 12):

"Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist. Good son, the term 'conditioned' is also invented from language [and it validates nothing real]."


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 12th, 2020 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Is there a possibility in the near future for creating a subforum for the Huayan/Kegon school?
Content:
nomono said:
I am very interested in the Huayan/Kegon school and its intepretations, doctrines, commentaries, beliefs, patriarchs, liturgy, canon of scriptures and so on, but there is not very much in the internet about it.

Astus wrote:
There's not much about it in English in general. At least in Korean Buddhism Hwaeom is upheld as the main form of the doctrinal teachings, so volumes 4 and 5 in http://www.acmuller.net/kor-bud/collected_works.html contain some original translations. However, note that there is no separate Hwaeom school.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 9th, 2020 at 4:03 PM
Title: Re: Poll: Is consciousness/mind/related terms (vinnana/citta/manas/nama/etc.)...
Content:
Malcolm said:
Yogacāra asserts the mind is impermanent, momentary, and dependent.

Dgj said:
Depends on who you ask:

Astus wrote:
Not really. Asanga and Vasubandhu are very clear on the nature of the eight consciousnesses. If you propose that somebody else taught of an independent, eternal consciousness within Buddhism, you need to give the exact source.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 8th, 2020 at 5:12 PM
Title: Re: Looking for Buddhist logical statements that disprove the idea that "All is one"
Content:
Faith in Mind: A Guide to Ch'an Practice by Master Sheng-Yen said:
One is everything, Everything is one.
True suchness is identical to all phenomena and all phenomena are never separated from true suchness. It must be understood in this sense, and not in the sense that all phenomena reduce to one. There is no distinction between unification and non-unification in true suchness. Otherwise, taking these two lines literally would imply that if one person becomes a Buddha, everyone else has to become a Buddha. Or, all sentient beings must attain Buddhahood before there can be even one Buddha, since all sentient beings are one. This would not hold on a common sense level, yet it can be understood on the deeper level just explained. ( http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-MISC/misc38333.pdf )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 8th, 2020 at 3:48 PM
Title: Re: Hypothetical debate team number 2! Arguing against "All is consciousness!"
Content:
Astus wrote:
All is consciousness is an exaggerated mistake, as even ordinary people recognise various objects. Here's a bit of analysis by Shantarakshita (Madhyamakalamkara, v 46-54, tr Padmakara):

If consciousness is ultimately real,
It must be manifold, or else its aspects are all one.
Failing this, the mind and object are at variance
And there’s no doubt that they diverge.

If the aspects are not different,
Moving and unmoving parts and so forth—all are one.
All must be in motion or at rest!
It’s hard to give an answer to this consequence.

And even in the case of outer things,
Since these are not devoid of aspects,
All such features are contained in one:
A consequence that no one can gainsay.

If you say cognitions are as many
As the mental aspects,
They can be examined like the partless particle,
And it is hard to circumvent such scrutiny.

If various aspects form a single entity,
Is not this the teaching of the sky-clad yogis?
Variety is not a truly single entity
But is like various gems and other things.

If various items form one thing inherently existent,
How do they appear to us as various?
For some are hidden, some are not.
Now how can they be so distinct?

Since, they say, in consciousness itself
There are no mental aspects,
The mind, which in reality is aspectless,
Appears with aspects only through delusion.

But if these aspects are without existence,
How do we experience them so clearly?
Indeed there is no consciousness
That from the aspects stands apart.

Therefore, where there’s nothing present,
Absent also is cognizing consciousness.
Likewise misery cannot be known as bliss,
Nor white cognized as something that’s not white.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 8th, 2020 at 2:52 PM
Title: Re: What is meant by "there are no strivings, no comings, and no goings" in the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra?
Content:
Brahma said:
But the substance in life is Metta, no?

Astus wrote:
Metta is a specific attitude that one can cultivate. There are three other attitudes normally grouped together with it: karuna, mudita, upekkha; they together form the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmavihara. Those four do not serve as substance or universal basis in Buddhism, but rather they are to be practised.

Brahma said:
Love being the soul Buddhism asks us to cultivate by discarding the false views of self, and even of soul, until one extinguishes their material desires, attains Nirvana, and becomes a Buddha and feels only the Highest Metta and finds the Truth there.

Astus wrote:
Love (metta) is insufficient in itself to reach liberation, it is not an ultimate truth (paramartha-sacca), and it is compounded (sankhata).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 8th, 2020 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: What is meant by "there are no strivings, no comings, and no goings" in the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra?
Content:
Brahma said:
Can you explain how there is "nobody to strive or move"?

Astus wrote:
It is so because of what the sutra itself states: 'it is devoid of selfness and its belongings' (ātmātmīyarahita), that there is no entity transmigrating, because what are assumed as a being/self is merely a concept, an imagined thing, and does not really exist. This is actually the basic Buddhist doctrine of no-self.

Brahma said:
And is this motionlessness unsuspended? Because this concept keeps me thinking of the souls of all things, not unchanging but also with qualities that are indestructible, with a sameness to them despite constant impermanence in the Saha world. Is this a deeper Buddhist philosophical way of describing anatta in a correct way?

Astus wrote:
Not at all. It is like a play of shadows where one may believe that a shadow is a being moving around out of its own volition, while actually it's just a natural phenomenon produced by various causes and conditions. Buddhism teaches one to learn to recognise this mistaken superimposition on appearances, and not to add another layer of a 'deeper philosophy', as that would be merely making further mistakes out of the already incorrect concept of a real being.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 7th, 2020 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: What is meant by "there are no strivings, no comings, and no goings" in the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra?
Content:
Brahma said:
So again, what does the Buddha mean when He says that the notions of "birth, abiding, and disappearance must be discarded" and that "there are no strivings, no comings, and no goings" in the Laṅkāvatāra Sūtra?

Astus wrote:
Since things are mere concepts without any existence of their own, there is nothing born, enduring, or dying (the three characteristics of impermanent phenomena). There are no strivings, etc., as there is nobody to strive (or rather move - nirīha, Red Pine translates it as 'motionless'), in other words, nobody to be born and die, no real birth and death, i.e. samsara.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 6th, 2020 at 3:23 PM
Title: Re: Monism? A [possibly not so brief] question and discussion on Buddhist metaphysics
Content:
Mr. Cole said:
I was wondering if anyone could elucidate what Buddhist metaphysics and spirituality has to say on this topic.

Astus wrote:
Buddhist metaphysics might be called conditional pluralism, as it posits multiple factors (dharmas) that exist dependent on other factors. For a summary of some of the main forms of Buddhist philosophy:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abhidharma/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/madhyamaka/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/twotruths-india/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/vasubandhu/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-tiantai/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-huayan/


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 2nd, 2020 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Subtle body
Content:
Malcolm said:
No, it’s a purely physical action. See the Kosha.

Astus wrote:
Sarvastivadins take speech as a dharma not associated with mind, Sautrantikas as rupa because it's sound (AKB II.47, vol 1, p 250-253), and Yogacarins as the Sarvastivadins (Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 20, cf. http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/outlines/100dharmas.html / http://www.cttbusa.org/100shastra/100dharmas8.asp ).

Also note:

'First you place the mind and keep it connected, then you break into speech. That’s why placing the mind and keeping it connected are verbal processes.'
( https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 2nd, 2020 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Hypothetical debate team! Arguing against the self!
Content:
Astus wrote:
There are already many arguments readily available. Here's an example (Aryadeva's Four Hundred Stanzas on the Middle Way, ch 10, v 229-237):

From one rebirth to another
The person changes like the body.
It is illogical for yours to be
Separate from the body and permanent.

Intangible things do not
Produce so-called motility.
Thus the life force is not
Agent of the body's movements.

Why [teach] non-violence and wonder about
Conditions for a permanent self?
A diamond never has to be
Protected against woodworm.

If your self is permanent
Because of remembering other lives,
How can your body be impermanent
When you see a scar previously formed?

If the self when possessing that
Which has mind is a knower,
By that [same argument] that which has mind would be
Mindless and the person permanent.

A life force which has pleasure and so forth
Appears as various as pleasure and so forth.
Thus like pleasure it is not
Suitable as something permanent.

If consciousness is permanent
An agent is superfluous.
if fire is permanent
Fuel is unnecessary.

A substantial entity, unlike an action,
Does not alter until it disintegrates.
Thus it is improper to claim
The person exists but consciousness does not.

At times one sees potential consciousness,
At others consciousness itself.
Because of being like molten iron
The person undergoes change.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 1st, 2020 at 2:59 PM
Title: Re: chan/seon/rinzai/soto differences
Content:
Julio Robles said:
Astus, you said "Like other Japanese schools, they lack full monastic ordination", that is not accurate,the Japanese Obaku Zen School (3rd larger Japanese Zen School, for the readers that doesn´t know, I´m sure you do) follows the Vinaya of the Dharmagupta.

Astus wrote:
That is a very interesting news. Any sources on the matter you could point to?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 30th, 2020 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: Subtle body
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
What we think of as our physical body is actually just a creation of our mind based on  sense experiences. So looking for some tangible "subtle body" is perhaps missing the point.

Astus wrote:
So from a practical perspective working with the channels et al. would be about manipulating the felt body to influence one's state of mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 28th, 2020 at 7:36 PM
Title: Re: Readable Library of Tibetan Classics
Content:
ratna said:
You'll need to install the http://www.aerifal.cx/~dalias/bodyig/fonts/ fonts and restart your PDF viewer.

Astus wrote:
Thank you!


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 27th, 2020 at 5:04 AM
Title: Readable Library of Tibetan Classics
Content:
Astus wrote:
How can one make the files readable on the http://tibetanclassics.org/en/media-resources/text/lotc-tibetan-texts?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 18th, 2020 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Avatamsaka Translation Question
Content:
Seeker12 said:
Do you know what that would be in Sanskrit?

Astus wrote:
Definition：sarva-jña, sarva-jñatā, sarvajña-jñāna; sarvajña-tattva, sarva-jñatva, sarvajña-dharmatā, sarvajña-bala, sarva-jñāna, sarvatra-jñāna, sarva-buddhi, sarva-vid.
Source：佛教漢梵大辭典, 平川彰 Buddhist Chinese-Sanskrit Dictionary, Akira Hirakawa

See more https://www.buddhistdoor.net/dictionary/details/%E4%B8%80%E5%88%87%E6%99%BA.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 17th, 2020 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Avatamsaka Translation Question
Content:
Seeker12 said:
In Thomas Cleary’s translation on page 526 in chapter 24, it says,

“Carrying out pure ways,
Fulfilling virtues,
One can concentrate unremittingly
On omniscience.”

Can anyone tell me exactly what word was translated as ‘omniscience’ here by any chance? Thank you for any feedback.

Astus wrote:
omniscience: 一切智

'Accomplishing pristine, pure Dharmas,
Perfecting all merit and virtue,
One has total concentration
And never lets one’s mind forsake All-Wisdom.'
( http://www.cttbusa.org/avatamsaka/avatamsaka24_1.asp )

T10, no. 279, p. 123b24-25:
成就白淨法，
具足諸功德，
彼於一切智，
專念心不捨。


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 17th, 2020 at 5:10 PM
Title: Re: Subtle body
Content:
Aemilius said:
It is implied in many ways in the Sutras

Astus wrote:
However, there would have been no reason to merely imply anything, since the idea of a subtle body was not unknown in India, so both the Buddha and then later masters could have discussed it, if they wanted to, like in the context of topics you listed as possible implications. Do you perhaps know of Vajrayana teachings where such connections are made between the Abhidharma system and Tantra?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 17th, 2020 at 2:19 PM
Title: Re: Subtle body
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
1. Does the subtle body exist conventionally?

Astus wrote:
Does it exist at all? In Buddhism it is a theory found only in Vajrayana, while outside it, within other Indian systems, it has been present in various forms even before the Buddha.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 13th, 2020 at 3:24 PM
Title: Re: Buddha, the Original Zen Master
Content:
clyde said:
You’re making a problem where there is none and I believe you know it.

Astus wrote:
It doesn't have to be a problem, but it's still a contradiction.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 13th, 2020 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: Buddha, the Original Zen Master
Content:
clyde said:
it was “suddenly seeing or hearing something that triggers awakening”.

Astus wrote:
And the problem the story indicates is that it contradicts the idea that zazen is practice-enlightenment, therefore no awakening should be needed beyond that.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 10th, 2020 at 3:42 PM
Title: Re: Buddha, the Original Zen Master
Content:
clyde said:
Are you suggesting that seeing the Morning Star caused the Buddha’s awakening?

Astus wrote:
The only other role the star can have in the story is to mark the time of awakening as around dawn, but then, seeing or not seeing it has no relevance. It also fits the usual Zen stories of suddenly seeing or hearing something that triggers awakening, and that is important, as this version of the Buddha's awakening is a Zen narrative, not something from the sutras.

clyde said:
The Buddha was clear, “Unprovoked is my release.”

Astus wrote:
That is a translation that can be misinterpreted as 'uncaused', while the word in SN 56.11 is 'unshakeable' (akuppa; see also the translations by Bodhi and Sujato). At the same time, if the account of the Buddha's awakening in the Nikayas is relevant, then it is quite different from Keizan's presentation, and on that note Dr. Bhikkhu Analayo's work is highly recommended: 'A Meditator's Life of the Buddha, Based on the Early Discourses'.

clyde said:
Before, at the same time, or after - what is your point? Keizan said, Śākyamuni Buddha himself formed no thought of attaining the way.
How do you understand this? I understood Keizan as referencing zazen.

Astus wrote:
Not forming a thought of it would have had no meaning before he had attained, as it would have been a simple delusion. As for not forming a thought after, see http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html#div-10 of the Diamond Sutra. Regarding referencing zazen, Keizan is quite clear on Shakyamuni sitting still for six years. This you can also tell that in the https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/denkoroku/pdf/Lead_Chapter.pdf he writes 六年端坐 ('for six [more] years he sat erect') and in the https://antaiji.org/ja/classics/english-zazen-yojinki/ 如来の端坐、少林の面壁 ( http://antaiji.org/archives/eng/zzyk.shtml: 'The Buddha sat straight, Bodhidharma faced the wall'), both using the same term tanza 端坐 for sitting erect/straight.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 9th, 2020 at 3:16 PM
Title: Re: Buddha, the Original Zen Master
Content:
clyde said:
Words! Perhaps “cause” was too much. Seeing the Morning Star didn’t cause the Buddha’s awakening, but, as Zen Masters have often described, an external occurrence (e.g. - the sound of a stone hitting bamboo) is sometimes a “simultaneous event”. Better?

Astus wrote:
Not better at all, because then seeing the star is simply an irrelevant event that's not even worth mentioning, just as numerous other circumstances are not mentioned, like seeing trees and grass, hearing birds and bugs, smelling earth and flowers, etc. And, more importantly, it still leaves the question unanswered why he awakened only after six years of motionless sitting.

clyde said:
And Keizan doesn’t say the Buddha “formed no thought of attaining the way” after his awakening.

Astus wrote:
What would have been the point of forming such a thought before, or even at the same time? It should also be noted that the knowledge of the destructions of defilements and the knowledge of no longer having any births left is part of the standard definition of liberation (see e.g. https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225076.html ), and a similar https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Paccavekkhana-nana is taught in Theravada.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 9th, 2020 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Buddha, the Original Zen Master
Content:
clyde said:
Whatever the precipitating cause

Astus wrote:
If there was a cause, then how can it be maintained that zazen itself is enlightenment?

clyde said:
Śākyamuni Buddha himself formed no thought of attaining the way.
which is a description of zazen.

Astus wrote:
Only after six years of sitting was he able to awaken when seeing the morning star. Whether he then formed a thought about it or not is irrelevant.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 8th, 2020 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: This simply doesn't make any sense.....
Content:
Justmeagain said:
"Because it is the practice of enlightenment" Or just pretending to be?

Astus wrote:
It is 'enlightenment' that one has to practise, that is, not grasping at body and mind. How so?

'Our zazen is letting go of thought. As Dogen said in Fukan Zazengi it is the negation of everything arising from human mind. And zazen is also embracing everything, including delusions and distorted thoughts. But because we let go of delusion, it cannot harm us. When we see delusion as delusion, we are not deceived by delusion.'
( https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/leaflet/sotozen/pdf/soto_zen.pdf, p 22-23)

'Just leave thoughts alone, allowing them to come up and go away freely.'
( https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/practice/zazen/howto/index.html )

The various afflictions (klesa/bonno), like anxieties and concerns, originate from clinging to ideas, in particular clinging to ideas involving one's self, taking them as 'this is me' or 'this is mine'. But if one does not pursue the first thought, then there will be no continuation into a second, and a third, and so on, to develop into something overwhelming and unmanageable.

"If one thinks of the previous thought, the present thought, and the later thought, one’s thoughts will be continuous without cease. This is called ‘fettered.’ If one’s thoughts do not abide in the dharmas, this is to be ‘unfettered.’"
(Platform Sutra, ch 4, BDK ed, p 43)

'Mumyo (fundamental delusion) is called illusory mind. It is the source of the rounds of delusory life and death from the immeasurable past. It is our discriminating mind which obstinately clings to body, mind, the world, and all things, as being the way we have perceived and recognized them until now. For example, although something good is not always good, we hold stubbornly to what we think is good. Something evil is not always evil, yet we become attached to our own judgment and make it a preconception. Even if you think something is good, others may think it is evil. Even if you think something is evil, others may think it good. And, even if both you and others think something may be good or evil today, fundamentally such judgments merely accord with illusory mind which manifests itself in the form of one’s own knowledge, views, and experiences. This is true not only of our judgments about good and evil, but also our views about being and non-being, hatred and love, etc. All these differentiations in regarding all existence arise from illusory mind.'
( https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/leaflet/heartofzen/pdf/Heart_of_Zen.pdf, p 45-46)

So, practising enlightenment is seeing through our very thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc., not by disregarding, suppressing, or analysing them, but simply with being aware of how they arise and pass. When there is awareness without complications, that is the enlightened outlook free from the entanglements of the fabrications of ignorance.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 8th, 2020 at 3:20 PM
Title: Re: Buddha, the Original Zen Master
Content:
clyde said:
When he sat down under the tree, he did something very new, not based on a method or manual – something more spontaneous, more natural. By trial and error, he gradually learned how to sit in a stable way by paying attention to how he felt in the sitting posture. He learned how to be with the body and mind, without doing anything artificial or intentional. He gave up and surrendered, and that's the origin of our zazen.
The Buddha was the first to practice zazen.

Astus wrote:
And how does zazen relate to awakening when seeing the morning star? According to the https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/denkoroku/pdf/Lead_Chapter.pdf, Sakyamuni sat for six years not moving, to the extent that 'spiderwebs formed between his eyebrows, a magpie’s nest rested atop his head, and reeds sprouted up through his seat' before one day attaining enlightenment.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 3rd, 2020 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: How do those in a state of Mahaparinirvana interact with the Saha world?
Content:
Brahma said:
Also, while the Saha world is characterized by impermanence, would Nirvana and Mahaparinirvana be characterized as a state of permanence? If so, how? If not--also, how so?

Astus wrote:
There is nobody in nirvana, as it is not a place or state of a being to exist in, therefore interaction from it makes no sense. If you want a Mahayana explanation of buddha activities, see for instance the seventh vajra point of the Uttaratantra, and chapter 21 of the Jewel Ornament of Liberation.

'An All-Embracing One always has spontaneous access to the disciples’ temperaments, the means of training,
the [various] trainings that suit their temperaments, and to seeking them wherever they are, at the right time.
Having multitudes of supremely precious qualities and the waters of the ocean of primordial wisdom, possessing the sunlight of merit and wisdom,
it is the definitive accomplishment of all vehicles without exception. [Enlightenment] is vast, without middle or end, and thus all-pervasive like space.
Fully seeing that buddhahood, the treasure of the unpolluted qualities, is [present] within all sentient beings without the slightest distinction,
the wind of the Buddhas’ sublime compassion totally dispels the clouds of afflictions and hindrances to knowledge, which have spun their net about it.'
(Buddha Nature: The Mahayana Uttaratantra Shastra, p 239-240)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 23rd, 2020 at 3:57 PM
Title: Re: Question about Vipassana
Content:
Brahma said:
This article claims that Buddha didn't teach "no-self" but taught "non-self"

Astus wrote:
Whatever can be called a self or belonging to a self are the five aggregates ( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.047.than.html ) that are all 'empty, void, without substance' ( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html ), in other words, not self ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.11/en/sujato ). The teaching on the aggregates is well summarised in the https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html where it is asked, 'Then what self will be touched by the actions done by what is not-self?', and the Buddha's answer is a step by step instruction on seeing that there is nothing that could be called a self or belonging to a self.

Brahma said:
avoided questions on whether there was a self or not, brushing them aside (possibly to point to a higher level of Awakening).

Astus wrote:
Not so. There is nothing to take as self or belonging to a self apart from the five aggregates, as noted above.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 23rd, 2020 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Question about Vipassana
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
Continued existence is "a constant principle".

Astus wrote:
Not at all, it is one of the twelve links (Pali/Sanskrit: bhava) that can also be translated as https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/bodhi and https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.035.than.html, and it depends on grasping.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 22nd, 2020 at 5:10 PM
Title: Re: Question about Vipassana
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
Meaning what exactly? What is reborn?

Astus wrote:
“What is rebirth, sir, and who does it belong to?”
“That’s not a fitting question,” said the Buddha. “You might say, ‘What is rebirth, and who does it belong to?’ Or you might say, ‘Rebirth is one thing, who it belongs to is another.’ But both of these mean the same thing, only the phrasing differs. Mendicant, if you have the view that the soul and the body are the same thing, there is no living of the spiritual life. If you have the view that the soul and the body are different things, there is no living of the spiritual life. Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One teaches by the middle way: ‘Continued existence is a condition for rebirth.’”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/sujato )

There are several teachings available on dependent origination. Some examples:

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#sn12
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh210.html
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh211.html
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh212.html

https://fpmt.org/mandala/online-features/personalizing-the-twelve-links-of-dependent-origination/
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/lam-rim/samsara-nirvana/the-twelve-links-an-in-depth-analysis
https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh015_Piyadassi_Dependent-Origination.html
http://www.aimwell.org/dependentorigination.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 22nd, 2020 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Question about Vipassana
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
If there is no "constant principle", how do you explain rebirth?

Astus wrote:
Dependent origination.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 21st, 2020 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Question about Vipassana
Content:
Brahma said:
If I want to practice Vipassana, can I still call my individuality a soul?

Astus wrote:
Words matter less than what one means by them.

Brahma said:
If there is an understanding that we are emptiness, void, why cannot that a Loving Eternal voidness be our soul?

Astus wrote:
Emptiness means the absence of an enduring, independent substance. Emptiness is a negation, not an assertion of any essence/entity.

Brahma said:
That is, since we are beginngless, there is some constant Eternal principle there.

Astus wrote:
No constant principle, that's what impermanence means. Every experience changes. Thinking that there is something constant, that itself is a mere thought that passes quickly.

Brahma said:
Yes, consciousness keeps going, life after life, but there is still an individuality, something we carry with us, we are not simply a product of our aggrigates.

Astus wrote:
The five aggregates are the entirety of what a being is, it covers the complete spectrum of experiences, that is, the whole of existence and life. Whatever one assumes to be one's possession or one's self is always in relation to the aggregates. As long as one takes the aggregates to be constant, reliable, enjoyable, controllable, independent, for that long there is disappointment and dissatisfaction, as they always keep changing and falling apart.

Brahma said:
What I am trying to say is that with holding no-self as being the basis of meditation, can one call their consciousness soul?

Astus wrote:
This should answer it: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 20th, 2020 at 4:46 PM
Title: Re: Non-attachment in Buddhism
Content:
Astus wrote:
'The happiness aspired to by most people is future happiness; it is a state of happiness wished for in the future. Moreover, it is dependent on other things. Yet when people develop a wise discernment into the truth, an innate and constant form of happiness arises—a happiness existing at all times, which is accessible in every moment. It lies at the heart of our being, pervading our entire life.
Here, one need not pursue any other kind of happiness. If other forms of happiness or pleasure present themselves, they are seen as a bonus, and one has the option to partake of them or not, without anxiety, in whatever way one pleases. There are no complications. And when these supplementary forms of happiness are absent, it has no effect on one’s wellbeing. One already abides in a state of constant happiness.'
( https://www.watnyanaves.net/uploads/File/books/pdf/675-Perfect-Happiness-English.pdf by Phrayudh Payutto, p 23)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 20th, 2020 at 3:56 PM
Title: Re: Question about Vipassana
Content:
Brahma said:
Do you believe that the physical manifestation of pain and distress within the body will dissipear in all cases if one practices vipassana meditation perfectly? If so, how? If not, how is the pain of suffering removed fully through vipassana, if someone can still physically feel the pain?

Astus wrote:
'There are two kinds of suffering: i) bodily suffering (kāyika duḥkha), ii) mental suffering (caitasika duḥkha). By the power of their wisdom (prajñābala), the holy individuals (āryapudgala) have no further mental suffering like sadness (daurmanasya), jealousy (īrṣyā), malice (vyāpāda), etc. On the other hand, because they have received a body composed of the four great elements (mahābhūtamaya) as a result of actions in their previous existences (pūrvajanmakarman), they still have bodily sufferings such as old age (jarā) and sickness (vyādhi), hunger and thirst (kṣutpipāsa), cold and heat (śītoṣṇa), etc., but these bodily sufferings are slight and quite rare.'
( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225706.html; see also https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html, https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn52/sn52.010.than.html, https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.038.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 14th, 2020 at 2:33 PM
Title: Re: Good beginner's overview
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
This looks very good but it's not the one I was talking about before.
This one is a lot longer, more detailed, broader in its approach to the different traditions.

Astus wrote:
I guess above you meant https://bdkamerica.org/find-your-edition/ that is the short version of https://bdkamerica.org/product/buddha-dharma-the-way-to-enlightenment-2e-hardcover/ - both available for free as PDF - that itself was written as a summary of the Tripitaka.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 14th, 2020 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Good beginner's overview
Content:
Astus wrote:
'This book offers a selection from a broad range of Buddhist texts. You will find here passages that may inspire, guide and challenge you. Overall, they give a picture of this great tradition as it has been lived down the centuries.'

'This book is divided into three main parts: i) the life and nature of the Buddha ii) the Dhamma/Dharma, or Buddhist teachings, and iii) the Sangha or spiritual community. Each chapter except the first is divided into three sections, containing selected passages from the texts of the three main Buddhist traditions: Theravāda, Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna.'

'Through this, its objectives are to increase awareness among Buddhists of their own rich heritage of religious and ethical thinking as well as to increase understanding among non-Buddhists of the fundamental values and principles of Buddhism. It seeks to strike a balance between what is common to the Buddhist traditions and the diversity of perspectives among them. The book consists of selected translations from Pāli, Sanskrit, Chinese and Tibetan, using a common terminology in English of key Buddhist terms, and maintaining strict scholarly standards.'

http://www.icdv.net/pdf/cbt_final_dec29%202015.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 12th, 2020 at 5:01 PM
Title: Re: Sources substantiating claims about "Hindus" not achieving liberation
Content:
fckw said:
Did I forget any further arguments?

Astus wrote:
While position 4 can cover "everything else", it is worth mentioning that the very concept of liberation is different, as in Buddhism there is no final form of existence to reach/become.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 11th, 2020 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Sources substantiating claims about "Hindus" not achieving liberation
Content:
fckw said:
the difference in view must therefore be on other aspects of Hindu teachings, but not in a subject-object-dualism.

Astus wrote:
The view of absolute monism (there is only self/god) is not the same as the non-existence of self and other.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 10th, 2020 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Sources substantiating claims about "Hindus" not achieving liberation
Content:
fckw said:
That is not the same claim as saying that "absorption states don't lead to liberation". The two are different.

Astus wrote:
In Buddhism no state of absorption is sufficient for liberation, wisdom is a requirement. See the Brahmajala Sutta how meditative experiences and wrong views are related.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 9th, 2020 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Sources substantiating claims about "Hindus" not achieving liberation
Content:
fckw said:
Does anyone know of any authoritative, that is: commonly accepted among their own scholars, be it "Hindu" or Buddhist scriptures that substantiate these claims?

Astus wrote:
The teaching unique to the Buddha is anatma, as you can find this stated in the Culasihanada Sutta. Without realising the absence of a self there are craving, grasping, becoming, birth, and suffering.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 9th, 2020 at 3:34 PM
Title: Re: infinite Regress and the Yogacara container model
Content:
Artziebetter1 said:
I have heard from andrei on buddhism stack exchange that this is the case,that in yogacara samskaras create appearences and vice versa and he basically admitted this was a infinite regress to me.I have also heard from krodha on buddhism subreddit that Dzogchen posists a yogachara container universe model to explain why individual beings mindstreams percieve a shared reality( my addition: despite not being part of one mind).

Astus wrote:
So it is not from any Yogacara work that you based the assumed problem on, and likely that's why it had become an issue. Naturally, if the premises are wrong, then the conclusion will be wrong as well.

Artziebetter1 said:
even if we could infinitely regress literally this causal chain,this wouldnt answer how interaction is functionally possible even with similar samskaras.

Astus wrote:
Except that there is no such thing as "interacting samskaras". Samskaras are mental fabrications like faith, attachment, pride, harmfulness, etc. Saying that one's envy interacts with another's shamelessness is very much a poetic/figurative speech.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 9th, 2020 at 3:23 PM
Title: Re: Satipathana in Mahayana
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
?

Astus wrote:
Mahayana developed in Northern India, and it had little contact with Theravada (for a quick overview see the map in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools ).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 9th, 2020 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: Satipathana in Mahayana
Content:
Viach said:
After the split on Mahayana and Theravada

Astus wrote:
There has been no such split.

Viach said:
has the practice of satipatthana (supplemented by the practice of bodhichitta origination) remained unchanged and basic yogic practice in Mahayana?

Astus wrote:
You might want to take a look at this: http://santifm.org/santipada/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A_History_of_Mindfulness_Bhikkhu_Sujato.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 9th, 2020 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: infinite Regress and the Yogacara container model
Content:
Artziebetter1 said:
The Yogacara container universe model posits that shared reality is due to similar karmic traces or samskaras of sentient beings.

Astus wrote:
It is the common Buddhist model that the realms appear as a result of beings' karma. Yogacara posits that what ordinary beings assume themselves and the world to be is merely a conceptual fabrication based on attributing independent reality to those ideas. As for 'container universe' and 'shared reality', where do you get those concepts from?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 8th, 2020 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Can a lazy person awaken?
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
You know, I don’t think “idle” means lazy... There is a phrase that has been sitting in my thoughts for years. Master Sheng Yen used to say that to practice zen is to be like a 無事賢道人 wushi xian daoren. Wu shi means having nothing to do... much like the tibetan refrain of “let go of your worldly activities.”

The Record of Linji by Ruth Fuller Sasaki, p 159 said:
One who has nothing to do 無事人 is a term used to describe the fully enlightened person. Linji says, “Buddhas and patriarchs are people with nothing to do”. The expression may have originated with Baizhang Huaihai, who states:
Just he for whom at present, as regards each and every external circumstance, there is no delusion, no disturbance, no anger, and no joy; and, as regards the gates of his own six sense organs, has wiped and settled them so that they are clean, this is the one who is without anything to do. (X 68: 12c)
This expression was used by both Guishan Lingyou and Huangbo Xiyun, the two great disciples of Baizhang. Guishan says:
One who is like the clear stillness of autumn water, pure, motionless, tranquil, and unobstructed—such a one is called a person of the Way, also a person who has nothing to do. (T 47: 577b–c)
Huangbo writes:
One whose outer and inner feelings are completely extinguished and who clings to nothing, such is the one who has nothing to do. (T 48: 382c)
[Huangbo] said, ‘The hundred-odd kinds of knowledge do not compare with nonseeking. This is the ultimate. The person of the Way is the one who has nothing to do, who has no mind at all and no doctrine to preach. Having nothing to do, such a person lives at ease. (T 48: 383b)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 5th, 2020 at 3:29 PM
Title: Re: Can a lazy person awaken?
Content:
clyde said:
can a lazy person (like me), one who doesn’t read sutras, doesn’t invoke buddhas, doesn’t study long and hard, doesn’t practice morning and night, lies down, and doesn’t acquire knowledge, awaken to “see their nature”?

Astus wrote:
There are stupid lazy and smart lazy. Stupid lazy is not actually lazy, it's is simply following the ingrained habitual inclinations without giving it a single thought, being lost in samsara and suffering. Smart lazy is what Zen is, being free from hope and worry.

'as to buddhadharma, no effort is necessary. You have only to be ordinary, with nothing to do—defecating, urinating, wearing clothes, eating food, and lying down when tired.'
(Record of Linji, tr Sasaki, p 11-12)

'I neither desire heavenly realms,
Nor want blessings in this world.
When hungry, eat;
Tired, sleep.
Fools laugh at me,
But the wise know its wisdom.
It’s not being stupid –
It’s what we originally are.'
( https://beingwithoutself.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/enjoyingtheway.pdf by Nanyue Mingzan, aka Lazy Zan)

'You get up in the morning, dress, wash your face, and so on; you call these miscellaneous thoughts, but all that is necessary is that there be no perceiver or perceived when you perceive—no hearer or heard when you hear, no thinker or thought when you think. Buddhism is very easy and very economical; it spares effort, but you yourself waste energy and make your own hardships.'
(Foyan Qingyuan, in Instant Zen, p 70)

'An ancient sage said, “Every phenomenon is the original reality.” Fine. Yunmen held up his cane and said, “This is not the original reality.” After a pause, he said, “If so, then the three poisons, four perversions, five clusters, six senses, twelve media, eighteen elements, and twenty-five realms of being are not the original reality.” Why not understand in this way—you’d save quite a bit of effort.
Buddhism is a most economical affair, conserving the most energy—it has always been present, but you do not understand.
I tell you, moreover, that there is nothing that is true and nothing that is not true. How can there be truth and untruth in one thing? Just because of seeking unceasingly, everywhere is seeking; pondering principles is seeking, contemplating the model cases of the ancients is also seeking, reading Zen books is also seeking; even if you sit quietly, continuously from moment to moment, this too is seeking.
Do you want to understand? Then that seeking of yours is actually not seeking. This is extremely difficult to believe and to penetrate, hard to work on. Those of you who are not comfortable are that way, generally speaking, because you are either oblivious or excited. That is why you say you do not understand.
Right now, how can you avoid being oblivious or excited? When that very thought of yours arises, it is the flowing whirl of birth and death: do you consider it habit-activated consciousness, or do you consider it immutable? Contemplate in this way over and over again, and you will have a bit of guiding principle.'
(Foyan Qingyuan, in Instant Zen, p 80-81)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 31st, 2020 at 6:06 PM
Title: Re: Is Vajracchedika Prajna Paramita authentic
Content:
Norden said:
As the title says, does it come directly from the Buddha himself or from Tripitaka?

Astus wrote:
The Diamond Sutra is a conversation between Shakyamuni and Subhuti, and it is very much in the Tripitaka, for instance Kumarajiva's translation is number 235 in volume 8 of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taish%C5%8D_Tripi%E1%B9%ADaka.

Norden said:
AFAIK, it is composed later on by Buddhist monk, maybe influenced by other teaching / faith or religion. Does anyone have any thought?

Astus wrote:
Quite the other way around. It is from the Diamond Sutra that all buddhas come, as it says so in http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html#div-9:

'Subhūti, all of the buddhas and all of their teachings of peerless perfect enlightenment spring forth from this sūtra.'


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?
Content:
Artziebetter1 said:
I do want sentience for ever,and I rather be alive and suffering somewhat in the 3 realms then to be nonsentient and not suffering.

Astus wrote:
Buddhism teaches freedom from suffering as a living person, not "some time in the future", and not "only when sentience ceases".

Artziebetter1 said:
a Buddha has no vijnana and no awareness,and some argue that a buddha still has some awareness as a living buddha,but a buddha that goes into parinirvana

Astus wrote:
Parinirvana is not a place to go, nor a state to become, but it's been (mis)interpreted as some sort of euphemism for death and annihilation.

Artziebetter1 said:
I do not want nirvana,so what is the point of following buddhism?

Astus wrote:
True. But nirvana is the end of suffering, it is freedom from fear and anxiety, it is peace, and not the end of everything.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Is the argument out of date?
Content:
Viach said:
Theravada concept of the atom

Astus wrote:
It's the Sarvastivadins that Yogacarins argued against. http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/26.2-Buddhist-atomism-piya.pdf is a much later development, and it's somewhat different.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 3:02 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Lillian said:
time flows in all directions and pours into each moment.

Astus wrote:
Is time conceived as a separate thing to have its own movements? If so, what is it? If not, then it is simply a concept used to refer to change. Change/time is observed as a mental construct, naming some thoughts as past, some as present, and some as future. How one conceives and interprets events is itself changing, thus in the present one finds all three times manipulated every time one thinks about it. This is a readily observable mechanism of existence one can easily confirm for oneself, and see that being/existence is pure change/time that is interpreted and reinterpreted in the process of changing existence.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
Historically, we know that the Mahayana sutra's are later creations attributed to the Buddha. I'd assume that even Buddhists in ancient times knew this since the Mahayana sutra's are full of fantastical tales - They must have known they were allegorical.

Astus wrote:
'Fantastical tales' are not Mahayana novelties, some you can find already in the Nikayas/Agamas (e.g. https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/buddhafiremiracle.pdf, https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/levitation.pdf, https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/miraclenuns.pdf ), and then a great number in later texts (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jataka_tales, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apad%C4%81na, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhava%E1%B9%83sa, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cariy%C4%81pi%E1%B9%ADaka ).

nichiren-123 said:
What I'm interested in though is whether the Mahayana Sutras develop on the earlier sutra's; Whether they are consistent with the early sutra's and if not, in which ways do they differ.

Astus wrote:
Such a comparison would require first identifying specific texts that are compared. See e.g. https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/mahayana.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 2:33 PM
Title: Re: How does Buddhism explain individual experience?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
Isn't that what dependent origination tells us?

Astus wrote:
Dependent origination in general stands for the universal law of causality and conditionality, and in particular - as the twelve nidanas - applies to individual beings on both a larger (over many lives) and smaller (over mental moments) scale.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: How does Buddhism explain individual experience?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
Why do individuals experience different things when everything is interconnected?
What is it that makes us have a unique experience?

Astus wrote:
What makes you assume that 'everything is interconnected'? Unique experience is a given already. Why posit a theory that does not reflect actuality and then turn it into a problem?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: What are the (spiritual) physics behind dedicating merit?
Content:
LastLegend said:
Let’s take some example: in quietness state, without interpretations you hear a bird chirping what is nature of mind?

Astus wrote:
What species of bird is chirping?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: What are the (spiritual) physics behind dedicating merit?
Content:
LastLegend said:
What do you call emptiness?

Astus wrote:
That appearances are empty of (i.e. without) any independent essence or characteristic.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent? (2)
Content:
LastLegend said:
Let’s flesh out today what is nature of mind? Using one’s own experience to describe it.

Astus wrote:
But first: what do you call mind?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: What are the (spiritual) physics behind dedicating merit?
Content:
LastLegend said:
The reason why your view should not be accepted is because it’s not a Mahayana view.

Astus wrote:
What do you call a Mahayana view?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 3:44 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent? (2)
Content:
Artziebetter1 said:
How can Buddhas even act or interact without any type of awareness at all?

Astus wrote:
The problem begins at one's ideas about what buddhahood and what awareness means. Those are already complicated topics. One option is to go by the Yogacara explanation of the eight consciousnesses transformed to the four wisdoms. Another option is to take buddhahood as the nature of the mind. Further options are also available, depending on one's need for more conceptualisation or its minimisation.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 3:07 PM
Title: Re: What are the (spiritual) physics behind dedicating merit?
Content:
Matt J said:
I think this misses the forest for the trees. To say that karma is truly individual is to say that it is independent. That is not the case. No matter how you parse it, you can say that karma affects the individual (whatever that means), but of course, this maturation will inevitably affect others.

Astus wrote:
Karma is about how mental habits are formed, how they distort one's experience, and how they generate (re)actions. It does not mean all sorts of causes and conditions, but a fairly specific type of it.

Matt J said:
For example, if you insult me, and due to past intentions and actions I have a seed of anger that is set off, let's imagine I am overcome with anger and I hit you in the face, this certainly impacts you. If you go home and your family sees your black eye, this effects them also. If it puts you in a foul mood due to your karmic seeds, then you may go around town spreading that bad mood everywhere.
Contrarily, if, due to past actions I have a seed of a good mood, and you come over, and we have a nice cup of coffee and a great chat, this certainly affects you as well, and you affect others, etc.

Astus wrote:
You hitting me is your action coming based on your habits. My reaction to being hit is my action/perception based on my habits. My family's reaction to seeing my black eye comes their habits. And so on. Karma being individual does not deny the wider causal interactions, just as one feels the effects of the weather, etc. The reason karma is highlighted as one's habit forming intentional action is because that is what one should work on, where skilful/wholesome/beneficial and unskilful/unwholesome/harmful thoughts, words, and deeds emerge and impact one's reality.

Bringing this back to the original question, merit is the positive imprint of a good deed. Since one cannot just distribute one's habits, it is not the case that sharing merit occurs like sharing food. Also, one has no power over whether another being may or may not rejoice in a good (or a bad) deed, regardless of one's intentions of sharing or keeping the merit generated by it. However, sharing merit is bringing others' attention to the opportunity of rejoicing in something good, so it is a beneficial action.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Emptiness and the Diamond Sutra
Content:
LastLegend said:
Mahaprajna by default itself already non-abiding.

Astus wrote:
Is what you call Mahaprajna conceptual or not? If not, then nonabiding cannot be conceptual either.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: What are the (spiritual) physics behind dedicating merit?
Content:
LastLegend said:
Why?

Astus wrote:
Because that is what it means, how one's intentional action leaves an imprint in one's mind, and as a consequence how that imprint influences one's experiences. As intention is the key factor, those who did not intend something, could not have committed a karma, and without a cause there can be no effect.

'This third category, ascription of karma, means that you experience the results of the karma you create. Results will ripen in the skandhas related to the actor, and not to others. The Collection of the Abhidharma says:
What does the ascription of karma mean? One experiences the maturation of the karma one has created. It is uncommon to others and, so, is called ascription.
If that were not the case, the karma that was created could be wasted or there could be the danger of facing a result that one had not created.
Therefore, in the sutra it says:
That karma that is created by Devadatta will not mature in the earth, water, and so forth 
But that karma will ripen in the skandhas and ayatana of that particular individual 
To whom else would this karma result?'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 119-120)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: Emptiness and the Diamond Sutra
Content:
LastLegend said:
Mahaprajna itself is not in the ken of conceptual practice. Not in the ken of second vehicle.

Astus wrote:
What is conceptual in nonabiding?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: What are the (spiritual) physics behind dedicating merit?
Content:
Matt J said:
The question is: how can you NOT share merit? Everyone is connected interdependently. If we take emptiness seriously, there are no lines or boundaries that separate anything from everything.

Astus wrote:
Karma is always individual.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Emptiness and the Diamond Sutra
Content:
LastLegend said:
If thought alone is the problem? I don’t find knowledge can penetrate the great emptiness. It only serves its purpose to get closer to it.

Astus wrote:
'Within continuing moments of thought one should not think of the previous [mental] realm. If one thinks of the previous thought, the present thought, and the later thought, one’s thoughts will be continuous without cease. This is called ‘fettered.’ If one’s thoughts do not abide in the dharmas, this is to be ‘unfettered.’ Thus it is that nonabiding is taken as the fundamental.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 4, BDK ed, p 43)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Emptiness and the Diamond Sutra
Content:
LastLegend said:
That’s good, but the question in Chan is what knows that?

Astus wrote:
'None of what the Tathāgata calls ‘thoughts’ are actually thoughts. Therefore they are called thoughts. Why? Because the past thought is unobtainable, the present thought is unobtainable, and the future thought is unobtainable.'
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html#div-19 )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 6:41 PM
Title: Re: What are the (spiritual) physics behind dedicating merit?
Content:
NateLeo said:
I believe understanding the more technical aspects could help me do this better so i can help more beings in places that i cant easily reach physically.

Astus wrote:
Merit is the positive imprint of a beneficial action in one's mental continuum. Sharing the merit of a good deed means that another being rejoices in the same action, thus it leaves a positive imprint there as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 5:14 PM
Title: Re: Emptiness and the Diamond Sutra
Content:
Ted Biringer said:
Numerous subsequent Zen records make frequent use of the Diamond Sutra’ s methodology to present the wisdom of emptiness, that is, insight into the nondual nature of reality. The gist of the Diamond Sutra’s methodology can be expressed by the formula A is not-A, therefore A is A; not-A is A, therefore not-A is not-A. In other words, form is emptiness (i.e. not-form), therefore form is form; emptiness is form (i.e. not-emptiness), therefore emptiness is emptiness.

Astus wrote:
In what Zen record can one find such an explanation about A's and not-A's?

Ted Biringer said:
The basic reasoning of this can be understood by envisioning ‘A’ as a particular dharma, and ‘not-A’ as everything else in the universe.

Astus wrote:
That would be a reification of A, thus a denial of emptiness. A is itself not-A, because there is never A in itself. If it meant simply that A is not anything else, that's just A=A, very much the common view of ordinary beings.

Ted Biringer said:
In sum, the Diamond Sutra presents (makes present) the dynamic interdependence of form and emptiness by demonstrating that ‘form’ is essential to, therefore inclusive of ‘emptiness’ (and vice versa).

Astus wrote:
There can be no interdependence of emptiness and form, unless one mistakenly reifies those concepts. Form is empty, because no form exists on its own, and that absence of an identifiable essence is what is called emptiness.
As for interpenetration, better check Huayan teachings on the four dharmadhatu. However, that has little to do with Huineng, the Diamond Sutra, or Zen.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 6:15 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
White Sakura said:
the visualizations are for some practitioners in fact futile.

Astus wrote:
Different people, different methods. That's why there are so many of them. It is also why having a teacher capable of evaluating and guiding a student is of immense benefit. At the same time, one needs to be persistent and see what works and what does not for oneself. As https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=544274#p544274: 'After all, oneself is the ultimate authority in all matters of religion, and no one else.'


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 5:10 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
White Sakura said:
Two accumulations, I understand that as practicing emptiness and compassion. It is important not to think: "Everything is empty, everything is illusion so there is no karma and I do not need to pay attention to good actions, ethical conduct."

Astus wrote:
It's all the six paramitas, the relative and ultimate bodhicitta.

White Sakura said:
Second: If somebody  practices "only" sutra mahamudra, what exactly is the minimum of other practises to practice from the Varjayana teachings? I cannot imagine it can be practised without at least a short formal guru yoga.

Astus wrote:
'This Dharma teaching can be given to anyone.
To have genuine Dharma practice, first meditate on impermanence. Otherwise, your Dharma practice might become merely an aid to your ambitions for this life.
Why should we meditate on impermanence? To turn our minds away from this life. Meditating on impermanence makes us realize that all the phenomena of appearance and existence,63 of samsara and nirvana, are impermanent. As a result, the mind does not get caught up in this life. This is the purpose of meditation on impermanence. If your mind hasn't turned away from this life, then your meditation on impermanence has been without purpose.
First, turn your m ind away from this life by meditating on impermanence. Then meditate on the faults of samsara. The purpose of meditation on the faults of samsara is to turn the mind away from the entirety of samsara.
When your mind has turned away from samsara, meditate on bodhicitta. First there is meditation on relative bodhicitta - wishing, from the depths of your heart, that all beings will have happiness, freedom from suffering, and complete buddhahood. Then view everything you do as being for the welfare of all beings. Have no concern for your own desires but develop an aspiration with the Mahayana perspective of benefiting others as your goal. That is how you meditate on relative bodhicitta.
Meditation on ultimate bodhicitta is simply remaining in the mind as it naturally is, a state in which all thoughts of perceiver and perceived, self and other, are intrinsically devoid of reality. Practicing in that way during each of the to ur kinds of behavior""' is what is cal led meditation on ultimate bodhicitta. Practicing in that way brings the realization and attainment of ultimate: bodhicitta.
There is no Dharma other than this.'
(Gampopa, in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 31-32)

'Regarding the manner of imparting the profound path [of Mahamudra], the venerable Gampopa considered it to be an independent path of tantra. So he did not make the esoteric empowerment a prerequisite for receiving the Mahamudra teachings.He spoke about the method of directly guiding the disciple toward the intrinsic reality of the mind. This [simple] method consists of seeking refuge in the guru and the Three Jewels, offering to them the symbolic cosmos [mandala], accounting for all one’s harmful deeds, and invoking them with intense faith and veneration. This practice includes meditation on love, compassion, and an enlightened attitude [bodhichitta]. In this respect, the prodigious intellects inclined toward the instantaneous path should be engaged at the outset in the process of discovering the vision of inherent reality, and then in settling the mind in tranquil absorption, similar to the contemporary training of the Mahamudra of Four Syllables. The inferior intellect, inclined toward the gradual path, should be put through the practice of tranquility leading to the meditation of insight. This is similar to the contemporary training through what is known as “harmonizing with the coemergent awareness.” 50 One understands that the reason for these [two ways] is to be found in his [the venerable Gampopa’s] written commentaries, the oral testament, the answers, and his oral testament recorded by Pal Phagmo Drubpa and Je Düsum Khyenpa in their respective collected works.'
(Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 123-124)

'Revulsion is the foot of meditation, as is taught.
To this meditator who is not attached to food and wealth,
Who cuts the ties to this life,
Grant your blessings so that I have no desire for honour and gain.

Awareness is the body of meditation, as is taught.
Whatever arises is fresh – the essence of realization.
To this meditator who rests simply without altering it
Grant your blessings so that my meditation is free from conception.

Devotion is the head of meditation, as is taught.
The Guru opens the gate to the treasury of oral instructions.
To this meditator who continually supplicates him
Grant your blessings so that genuine devotion is born in me.'
( http://www.dharmadownload.net/pages/english/Natsok/0010_Teaching_English/Teaching_English_0036.htm )

'Although plenty of Dharma preliminaries are taught,
They are all summed up in revulsion and renunciation.
Devotion to the guru too is particularly important
For traversing the paths and stages in months or years.
Much is said about what's key to the main practice,
But there's no teaching more profound
Than emptiness with compassion at its very core.
In your own mind—empty, clear, unceasing—
The three kāyas are, by nature, complete.
Recognise them, and then be watchfully aware.
There's no need to look for śūnyatā elsewhere!
Cultivate compassion for all your old mothers,
Who, not realising the natural state, are now deluded.
A great deal could be said about concluding practices,
But confess any misdeeds right away,
And dedicate whatever virtues you have performed
Towards the enlightenment of all sentient beings.
And be sure to recite Mahāyāna prayers of aspiration.'
( https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/jamgon-kongtrul/mahamudra-preliminaries-main-part-conclusion )


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 4:30 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
White Sakura said:
What does he mean by "Mahamudra" here? If Mantra-Mahamudra is THE one and only higher mahamudra, it is given by tummo. What is then to practise in addition??

Astus wrote:
'The actual path can be followed in two ways: through the path of method and through the path of liberation. In the Kagyü tradition, the path of liberation is mahamudra practice, and the path of method is the six yogas of Naropa. To pursue the path of method, we begin by accumulating merit and wisdom and then purifying our obscurations. This is done through the preliminary practices, which consist of going for refuge and generating bodhicitta while doing prostrations, then meditating on Vajrasattva, making mandala offerings, and practicing guru yoga. After completing guru yoga and receiving the blessing of our teacher and ·lineage, we engage in the practice of a meditational deity (Tib. yidam). Through the generation and completion stages of this practice, we achieve realization. That is the path of means or method.
The path of liberation is the practice of mahamudra. It begins with the stabilization of our wavering mind through the practice of tranquility meditation. Then through insight meditation, which looks into the nature of mind, mahamudra is accomplished. To facilitate and enhance the practices of tranquility and insight, we must still engage in gathering the two accumulations even while pursuing the path of liberation. The accumulations serve to greatly enhance the practices of tranquility and insight. When our practice of tranquility is unstable, it can be grounded through these practices. When we lack insight, it can be generated by these practices. Therefore, the path in either format conforms to what was said by the Third Karmapa, Rangjung Dorje, in his Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra: "The supreme path is that of the two accumulations, beyond the extremes of exaggeration and denial." The principal path is facilitated through gathering the accumulation of merit. Though the path of means and the path of liberation may appear distinct, the nature of the paths and what is to be realized by them is the same.'
(Song for the King : Saraha on Mahamudra Meditation by Thrangu Rinpoche, p 36-38)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 4:19 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
I have always struggled to see the connection between mahamudra as taught by the Kagyus and the samadhirajasutra.  Beyond the identification of Gampopa as Youthful Moonlight, the practical connection seems highly attenuated.  But I’d defer to someone who has studied the sutra more than I have.

Astus wrote:
"The king of all samadhis, or meditations, is the meditation of Mahamudra. So the meditation that Gampopa spread throughout Tibet was the Mahamudra that the Buddha taught in the Samadhiraja Sutra."
( http://namobuddhapub.org/files/teachings/ThranguR-Mahamudra_and_the_Kagyu_Lineage.pdf )

"The King of Samadhi Sutra is a teaching that forms the background for Mahamudra practice. If we only examine the superficial meaning it does not seem to be about Mahamudra at all. In a tremendously detailed way, it describes the Buddha's actions in his former lives and it extols the qualities of enlightenment and the virtues of practicing the general state of samadhi. We will not find the word 'Mahamudra' anywhere. Nowhere does it say we should make mandala offerings or engage in guru yoga. We might conclude that this text is not really about Mahamudra because even the teachings on shamatha and vipashyana are not as dearly defined here as they are in other Mahamudra texts. Yet, apart from this, if we examine the depth of its meaning, we will find that the sutra clearly emphasizes devotion to the buddhas or to the teacher who gives the teachings, as well as trust in the teachings themselves; and the importance of gathering an immense amount of merit. Therefore, we can easily apply the real intention of the sutra to our practice of, for example, cultivating devotion through guru yoga. From this standpoint, it is more beneficial to explain the actual intent of the sutra rather than just to interpret its literal meaning."
(King of Samadhi by Thrangu Rinpoche, p 19)

"The basic intent in the King of Samadhi Sutra and the Mahamudra pointing-out instruction is to point out the real condition so that we can recognize it. In neither case is intent to give instructions in some type of mind-made meditation state. This type of conceptual meditation is a very tangible experience that can appear to be 'profound' in the sense that we think what we are keeping in mind is the emptiness of all things. For example, when looking at this table, we think, "What is this table actually? It doesn't possess any self-nature. That is emptiness and I can understand that. This is how it really is! It is emptiness!" Then we keep this conceptual idea in mind. That type of concentration is, when compared to the state of mind of ordinary beings, quite profound and important. But regarding the state of samadhi explained in the King of Samadhi Sutra, as well as with what is pointed out in the oral instructions of Mahamudra, such conceptual concentration is a hindrance. In both Mahamudra and the King of Samadhi Sutra, what is to be trained in as the samadhi of the view is not a conceptual construct that we have concocted and kept in mind. It is more a matter of looking into the nature of mind and seeing it as it is, then simply letting it naturally be. We rest naturally in that instead of making up some artificial stare through our thinking and keeping that in mind. Viewed in this way, any intellectual construct is an obstacle for the wisdom of omniscience."
(p 32-33)

"According to this sutra, the meaning of samadhi and the meditation state which we train in through the instructions of Mahamudra are exactly the same, but there is a semantic difference. ... The difference lies in how the instructions are imparted, but the identity of samadhi is exactly the same."
(p 37)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 3:59 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
But surely the implication does follow, unless one believes that “sutra mahamudra” is an exceedingly slow path

Astus wrote:
It does not follow, because it's all a matter of skilful means, people using whatever is fitting for them.

'The Dharma is vast and it has many forms,
But the teachings that bring Buddhahood in a single lifetime
Are the two ultimate systems of Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen.
The Mahāmudrā of bliss and emptiness on the path of means
Is the actual practice of secret mantra,
But those who practise it are few and far between.
The Mahāmudrā of the innate on the path of liberation
Is an easier practice offering great reward at little risk,
And is of benefit to all, regardless of capacity.'
( https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/jamgon-kongtrul/mahamudra-swift-lord-of-realization )

Gampopa Teaches Essence Mahamudra, p 194-195 said:
Well then, he asked, "In terms of practising to gain experience, which is the most profound oral Instruction?" The reply came, "The tradition of Jowo Je's lineage says:

For the thinking mind to become certain of
Death and impermanence then karmic cause and effect and
Loving kindness and compassion is profound.

I have heard one group say, 'If the view, emptiness, is not realized, there is no benefit.' I have heard some say, 'Meditation on the yidam deity is the profound practice.' I heard guru Mila say, 'The meditation on the pranayama of Fierce Heat is the profound meditation.'

The dharma for which any given person develops certainty is the profound one for that person. Still, to take this further, if you devote yourself to the guru, meditate by pairing Fierce Heat With Mahamudra, and train your mind in enlightenment mind, because both your own and others' aims will be fulfilled at the same time this is the profound one."

"Well then", Phagmo Drupa asked, "Do you prefer to lead people through Fierce Heat to start with or through Mahamudra?" The reply came, ''Which one will depend on the person's type. Younger people with good physical elements and channels who are instructed in and meditate on Fierce Heat itself will quickly produce the signs of progress. If I then give them Mahamudra, experience and realization will quickly dawn. For older people who are in the category of not being able to adjust the winds, I prefer to give Mahamudra or Co-emergent Unification, though there is the possibility that, if Mahamudra is given to them first but then not aroused within their mindstreams, they might fall into bad activities and develop a very jaded and problematic character."

Thrangu Rinpoche, in Luminous Clarity, ch 5 said:
Mahamudra is also necessary practice even if you do other practices as well. For example, there are profound methods of practice such as the Six Dharmas of Naropa or the Six Dharmas of Niguma or the Leapover (Tib. tögal) practice of Dzogchen. If you do these practices without Mahamudra practice, they are not so effective. For example, you can practice Inner Heat (Tib. tummo) or Dream Yoga, but if you do these practices conjoined with Mahamudra practice, they are much more powerful and effective. If you don't combine them with Mahamudra, they are not really that useful. They are not useless, because no Dharma practice is useless, but these advanced practices don't fulfill their proper functino unless Mahamudra practice is integrted with them. The same thing is true of the Tögal practice of Dzogchen. It includes powerful methods, such as the white instruction, the red instructino, the yellow instruction, darkness teaching, and so on, but if these techniques are practices in the absence of Mahamudra experience, not that much benefit will accrue from them. However, if these Dzogchen practices are practiced with Trekchö, a practice similar to Mahamudra experience, they are tremendously powerful. On the other hand, you can practice just Mahamudra or Trekchö without these other methods, and it will still be tremendously beneficial even by itself.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Soto Zen
Content:
shanyin said:
Is a difference between Soto and Rinzai that one teaches gradual and the other sudden enligtenment?

Astus wrote:
No. All Zen schools teach sudden enlightenment.

shanyin said:
Sitting makes me think that all this Dharma and Buddhism is all supposed to be subjective so I am attracted to the idea that there is nothing one can do to attain enlightenment. Is that what Soto teaches?

Astus wrote:
Soto teaches the https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms07.pdf, so actually you can only do everything to attain enlightenment.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
LastLegend said:
Are you still Chan or no ?

Astus wrote:
If you mean whether I accept and apply the teachings of Bodhidharma and his heirs, then yes.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
Did you practice this?

Astus wrote:
As much as I could.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
Astute freely admitted above he has not received any Vajrayana teaching, nor direct introduction.

Astus wrote:
I https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=34185&p=543801#p543801 that I mainly studied and heard sutra-style Mahamudra teachings, as that is what I like the most in Vajrayana. But since I was fortunate enough to receive the Fivefold Mahamudra teaching, I cannot say other parts are totally unknown to me.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
White Sakura said:
Astus, they think you have no contact to a master, because you do not come up with names.

Astus wrote:
You're very right that most Karma Kagyü groups are affiliated with Trinley Thaye Dorje in Europe. Actually, of the three groups (one being Diamond Way, obviously) in Hungary, all are. But that's not the reason I don't really visit them (like for instance last September Nydahl gave Mahamudra teachings in Budapest, and while I was a little tempted to go, eventually didn't, because, well, it's him). Although I am quite fond of Thrangu Rinpoche, it was only once, and even that just online, that I heard him teach. The Kagyupa teachers I had met and received teachings from were from the Taklung (Phakchok Rinpoche), the Drikung (Chetsang Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, Drupon Konchok Jigmet), and from the Drukpa (a disciple of Adeu Rinpoche) lineages. But all this, in my opinion, is totally irrelevant for the topic.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
I understand the point you are trying to make, which is the same point you have been trying to make for years: one can learn Dharma from books without a master.

Astus wrote:
It isn't, as https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=543943#p543943, and https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=543371#p543371. It is something others keep bringing up.

Malcolm said:
The difference here between sūtra and tantra is again, in the former case it is purely an intellectual analysis, in the later case, based on empowerment.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean the latter is intellectual analysis based on empowerment?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
The introduction is not in the analysis.
...
The introduction is not in the verbal instruction.

Astus wrote:
Right, but the question is if the analysis/instruction used to get to the introduction/insight can also match between Sutrayana and Vajrayana, not just the wisdom/gnosis arrived at? For that I gave the example of looking at the mind/thoughts in terms of the three times, as that is a frame of reference used in both systems.

'The past mind has ceased, is destroyed ; the future mind is not born, has not arisen; the present mind cannot be identified. When you analyze in that way, you will see that all phenomena are like that. Nothing has reality; everything is just a creation of the mind. Therefore, you will understand that arising. remaining. and ceasing have no reality at all.'
(A Record of Mahamudra Instructions by Pema Karpo, in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 146-147)

'The past is already past—
Don't try to regain it.
The present does not stay—
Don't try to touch it from moment to moment.
The future is not come—
Don't think about it beforehand.
With the three times non-existent,
Mind is the same as Buddha-mind.'
(Layman Pang, in "A Man of Zen", p 85)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Malcolm said:
To really understand what Dogen meant, I would want to see some native Japanese commentary on the issue.

Astus wrote:
https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms14.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
What do you mean by "the mind is not established in the three times?"

Astus wrote:
'In this way, when the identity of the mind is specifically examined by wisdom,in the ultimate sense it is perceived neither within nor without. It is also not perceived in the absence of both. Neither the mind of the past, nor that of the future, nor that of the present, is perceived. When ·the mind is born, it comes from nowhere, and when it ceases it goes nowhere because it is inapprehensible, undemonstrable, and non-physical. If you ask, "What is the entity of that which is inapprehensible, undemonstrable; and non-physical?" the Heap of jewels states: "O Kashyapa, when the mind is thoroughly sought, it cannot be found. What is not found Cannot be perceived. And what is not perceived is neither past nor future nor present." Through such analysis, the beginning of the mind is ultimately not seen, the end of the mind is ultimately not seen, and the middle of the mind is ultimately not seen.'
(Stages of Meditation, p 131-132)

'If you wish to recognize clearly the non-dwelling mind, then during your meditation just be aware that your mind does not think about any object or hold on to any dualities, such as good and evil, etc. Since past things are already past, you should not think about them anymore; and, thus, any thought about the past vanishes. This is known as being without the past. Furthermore, since future things have not yet arrived, you should neither seek nor wish for them; and, thus, any thought of the future vanishes. This is known as being without the future. Finally, since present things are already present, you should not grasp them nor allow a thought of love or hate to arise; and, thus, any thought about the present vanishes. This is known as being without the present. In summary, if no thought about these three time periods arises, then the three time periods do not exist. If a thought of moving arises, do not follow it; and the thought of moving will vanish. If a thought of dwelling arises, do not follow it; and the thought of dwelling will vanish.'
( https://ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/treatise-entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment )

'Rest in a state of clarity and naturalness. Rest relaxed, without tightness. Do not examine or analyze good and bad. Do not have doubts about what is or isn't. When thoughts appear, do not follow after their numerous appearances. Rest completely, like a sheaf of hay that has had its string cut. Rest. relaxed, in natural consciousness. Past thoughts have ceased, the future ones have not arisen. In this relaxed in-between state of the present, it's taught:
That mind is no mind ; the mind's nature is luminosity.
Just this mind alone, which is completely empty, clear, aware, and lucid, is what is called the perfection of wisdom, luminosity, mahamudra, dzokchen, and dharmakaya.'
(Thr Unrivaled Instructions of Shang Rinpoche, in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 77)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
Apologies for the pedantry, but you're making my point for me here.

Astus wrote:
They're sutrayana teachings. And directly from sutras:

Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 189-190 said:
Many similar passages are found in the scriptures. Searching for the mind through a contemplative analysis – even though [the mind] is not composed of any substance – serves the purpose of realizing that the mind is empty of an innate essence. The Bhavanakrama quotes the Phakpa Könchoktrin (Aryaratnamegha):

If those who meditate on the void analyze every discursive thought and every joyous contemplative state, they will realize that everything is void [free from an essence]. If they examine what the mind is, they will realize that it is void. If they search for the essence of the investigating mind, they will realize that it is also void. By realizing this, they will elevate themselves to inmost purity, detached from the mark [of duality].

Concerning the search for or examination of the mind, the Dharmadhatuprakrtyasambhedanirdesa of the Ratnakuta states:

[The incarnatemonk said:] O venerable ones, examine your mind in order to determine if it is identical with what has been designated as blue, yellow, red, white, maroon, or a crystal shade, or if it is pure, impure, eternal, impermanent, material, or immaterial.
They [the multitude of monks] replied: O venerable one, the mind is formless, undemonstrable, without appearance, intangible, ground less, and invisible.
Thereupon the incarnate monk spoke: O venerable ones, concerning the mind which is formless, undemonstrable,without appearance, intangible, groundless, and invisible, can it be conceived as dwelling inside, outside, or in between?
The monks replied: No sir, this is not so.
The incarnate monk asked: Venerable ones, if the mind is formless, undemonstrable, without appearance, intangible, groundless, and in - visible, then there is nothing to observe inside, outside, or in-between. Do you suppose that it has not evolved as a perfect reality?
They replied: No sir, this is not so.

The Ratnakuta says:

The search for the mind should be conducted thus: What is a lustful mind, a hateful mind, or an ignorant mind? Has the mind emerged in the past, does it do so in the present, or will it do so in the future? Very well, you should contemplate the fact that the past mind has ceased to exist, that the future mind has yet to arise, and that the present mind does not endure. O, Osung (Kasyapa), the mind cannot be perceived as dwelling inside, outside, or even in-between. O, Osung, concerning the nature of mind, there is nothing to investigate, nothing to demonstrate, nothing to support, nothing to make it appear, and nothing of visible form.

Again, the Buddha explains in the Ratnakuta:

O, Osung, one does not find the mind through a complete search.Whatever is undiscoverable cannot be conceived. Whatever is inconceivable did not arise in the past, nor will it in the future, nor does it arise at the present time. That which is neither past, nor future, nor present indeed transcends the three periods of time. That which so transcends the three periods of time cannot be construed as either existing or nonexisting.

The Ratnakuta-sutra states:

He who searches for the mind cannot find it inside or outside of himself, or collectively both outside and inside. He can neither find it in his psycho physical aggregates, in the elemental realms, nor in the sense faculties. Then, because he cannot find the mind, he explores inwardly the stream of his mind with the assumption that a thought arises from a perceptive image. He contemplates whether a perceptive image and mind exist distinctly from one another or whether they are identical. If the image is separate from the mind, then there are two kinds of mind. If the image is the mind itself, then how can the mind “see” the mind, because the mind cannot “see” the mind itself.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Queequeg said:
Like I said, complimentary.

Astus wrote:
I did not question that part.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
the intellectual view of sūtra and tantra is the same.

Astus wrote:
Does that include the part where for instance one needs to establish for oneself, not just through reasoning but also directly, that the mind is not established in the three times?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Queequeg said:
One advantage of interdependence is that it doesn't require confidence in rebirth so may be better suited to those who may either not believe or have an agnostic perspective.

Astus wrote:
The benefit of the doctrine of karma, even for those who are agnostics or materialists, is to recognise that actions originate in the mind and has impacts on the mind. So from the interpersonal aspect of ethics it points towards looking at the inner workings of the mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
yes that would be the point.  I think what you're quoting here is the text, not the quotations in the text?


Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 185-186 said:
One may wonder which of the scriptures deal with meditation on the vision of reality, which arises from insight and which is capable of resolving doubts and assumptions. Such a vision is attained after having determined that all things are only mind-created, and that even the mind’s intrinsic nature is devoid of true essence. The Sutralamkara illustrates this:

Understand that nothing exists apart from the mind.
Know that the mind itself is unreal.
An intelligent person, comprehending the unreality of the two,
Settles in the expanse of the nondual reality.

The Bodhichittavivarana expounds:

Having once established pure idealism,
Blessed seekers reject the reality of mind itself.
For the exponents of the Consciousness Only school
All the diverse appearances are the manifestation of mind.
What then is the self-nature of consciousness?
This is to be elucidated here.
“All things are but a product of the mind,”
The Supreme Sage expounded
To protect seekers with childish minds who might otherwise be terrified,
Even though this statement was not truly so.
All the conceptually designated, dependent conditionality
And established reality are but empty.102
This is the singular essence of the abiding reality,
And should be determined in terms of one’s own mind.
For those who delight in the Great Vehicle,
Reality is perfectly even, without a self-essence,
Because the mind is nonarising right from the beginning.
Thus it was summarized by Buddha.

The first Bhavanakrama elaborates:

Thus, one contemplates that the three planes of phenomenal existence are the product of the mind only, and then one realizes that everything conceptually designated is simply of mental origin. If one examines every aspect of themind, one is analyzing the intrinsic nature of all phenomena. In so examining one may further examine in the following manner. The mind as such cannot be real from the stand point of ultimate truth. How can the mind be real when it clings to images of what are essentially false sensory forms, etc.,manifesting themselves externally in diverse appearances? Just as sensory forms, etc. are false, so the mind is also false since it is not any different from the former. The senses – emerging in diverse forms – are devoid of either one or many essences. The reality of the mind is not different from the senses; it is also devoid of either one or many essences. For these reasons the mind by nature is indeed like a magical scene. Like the mind, all phenomena in their intrinsic nature are also like a magical scene.

Similar elucidations are found in other treatises on the stages of meditation.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Queequeg said:
Actually, its useful to develop as a foundation for an ethical life.

Astus wrote:
That might be so, although for the same purpose there are teachings on karma and rebirth.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
You would need to identify exactly which instructions you're talking about to compare the instructions found in sutra on vipasyana and those found in Kagyu mahamudra.

Astus wrote:
Here are examples from Mahamudra the Moonlight. If required I can copy here the various quotes.

'Which of the scriptures deal with this subject? One may wonder which of the scriptures deal with meditation on the vision of reality, which arises from insight and which is capable of resolving doubts and assumptions. Such a vision is attained after having determined that all things are only mind created, and that even the mind’s intrinsic nature is devoid of true essence.'
(p 185)

Then quotes from Sutralamkara, Bodhicittavivarana, Bhavanakrama.

'The actual stages of this meditation. During the earlier meditation on tranquil absorption, the settling of mind in a nondiscriminating absorption was predominant. Here, in this meditation on insight, the analyses of mind through discerning wisdom should be the predominant factor. By settling the mind in undistracted tranquility, one enhances the quality of the mind’s lucidity and then examines this state. Here the method of determining the mind’s innate essence is similar to those of the sutra tradition for determining selflessness of personality.'
(p 186)

Quote from Bhavanakrama.

'How this meditation compares with the original exposition. The followers
of this meditation order describe the aforesaid meditation as discovering the mind.'
(p 188)

Quotes from Ratnakuta, Ratnakutapariprccha-sutra, Trayastrimsat-parivarta, Bhavanakrama.

'The sutras and the tantras are replete with many such words of wisdom. In summary, it has been stated that examination of the mind has to be so exhaustive as to embrace all the external and internal phenomena with special reference to color, shape, dwelling place, support, identity, and mode of mind. Only after a thorough examination will one understand that the nature of mind is formless, undemonstrable, without basis externally or internally, and is detached from discriminating thoughts. Thus, the in trinsic nature of mind is identical with space!'
(p 191)

Quotes from Bodhicittavivarana, Siksasamuccaya.

'How to determine the nature of the mind. One now endeavors systematically to determine the mind through medi tational methods such as those already described.'
(p 192)

Quotes from Mahakarunanirdesa-sutra, Maitreyapariprccha-sutra, Kasyapapariprccha-sutra, Samdhinirmocana, Samdhivyakarana-sutra.

'The term “seeing the mind” is a simple designation for understanding the mind’s unreality, which is detached from the beginning from all modes of existence or nonexistence.'
(p 195)

Quote from Prajnaparamita-samcayagatha.

'The showing of all appearances to be the products of mind.'
(p 196)

Quotes from Lankavatara-sutra, Bodhicittavivarana.

'The realization of mind, which will bring about an insight into all appearances.'
(p 198)

Quotes from Satasahasrika-prajnaparamita-sutra, 'Aryadeva' (actually found in works by Bodhibhadra and Haribhadra), Catuhsataka, Satyadvaya of Atisa, Samadhiraja-sutra, Bodhicittavivarana,

'The actual stage of this meditation. At this stage, the determination of thoughts and appearances is similar to the determination of the selflessness of things according to the sutra system.'
(p 200)

No quotes from any source.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 5:27 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
The fact that people write books about it doesn't mean they think that you can understand it by only reading books.

Astus wrote:
Sure. But that was neither stated nor even implied.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 5:10 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
if you want to understand what the meaning is of Mahamudra and how it is accomplished, you have to receive and practice it from a teacher and understand it in those terms. You cannot understand it based on books.

Astus wrote:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=543776#p543776 put forth is fairly abstract and theoretical. It is stated by various authors that the vipasyana used in Mahamudra matches with what is taught in Sutrayana works (e.g. Situ Tenpai Nyinje in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 249; Dakpo Tashi Namgyal in Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 181; Ngawang Kunga Tenzin in The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, p 264-267). Since that is so, the question is if the difference in method between Paramitayana and Vajrayana can be identified in how one gets to the point of being able to engage in vipasyana.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 4:02 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Ted Biringer said:
In Zen time and existence are not two different things; time is always existence-and-time, existence is always existence-and-time.

Astus wrote:
Taking a common phrase and turning it into a "Zen expression" is Dogen's usual play, but those expressions were rarely if ever used in such a fashion before, and only used so after because of Dogen. Nevertheless, when one conceives such an expression, all such terms in the three times are seen from this point, changing/gaining/revealing/losing meaning. This itself shows how existence-time operates. Otherwise, there is nothing new here, conditioned things have always been understood as impermanent, and whatever is impermanent is empty, and emptiness is liberation, hence buddha-nature is walls, tiles, pebbles.

Ted Biringer said:
In short, each and every particular thing, being, and event (i.e. dharma) is an intrinsic and essential element of total time, and each and every moment or duration of time is an intrinsic and essential element of total existence – hence each and every particular dharma is a manifestation of the whole universe, and the whole universe is manifest in and as each and every particular dharma.

Astus wrote:
"Everything is connected", and other such nice sounding but fairly useless ideas only make things unnecessarily complicated. To see existence-time for oneself, all it takes is to reflect on one's being as change without assumptions of an entity that is inside or outside change.

'If we leave it utterly up to existence, even though [the moments] before and after manifest heedless blundering, they abide in their place as existence-time. Abiding in our place in the Dharma in the state of vigorous activity is just existence-time. We should not disturb it [by interpreting it] as “being without,” and we should not enforceably call it “existence.”'
(Uji, in SBGZ, vol 1, BDK ed, p 146)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
Words and concepts.

Astus wrote:
That's very Zen of you to say so.
But, I still feel that the question is not yet clarified. You wrote:
Vipaśyanā, in Vajrayāna is not a result of intellectual analysis, it is rather a product of integrating the experience of the example gnosis or the genuine gnosis induced during empowerment, depending on the practitioner.
But you also said that pointing out instructions are equal to the fourth empowerment. What was quoted were examples of such pointers, and they are used in vipasyana, but there are others as well, like https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-buddhism/original-texts/tantra-texts/mahamudra-eliminating-the-darkness-of-ignorance/mahamudra-vipashyana-meditation. As for no intellectual analysis, well, right, but that doesn't make it different from how insight is taught in the sutras, in fact, sutras are also used next to dohas and tantras to explain Mahamudra vipasyana, hence my question, whether the dividing line is in how one eventually gets to be able to do vipasyana in order to gain gnosis.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
White Sakura said:
Definition of that term again please.

Astus wrote:
You can see a summary definition by Dzogchen Ponlop https://www.lionsroar.com/pointing-out-ordinary-mind/. It is where the practice is with calm abiding and special insight, as for instance what you find taught in Daring Steps Toward Fearlessness in the last section where the Short Vajradhara Lineage Prayer is commented upon.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
These two methods, thw two stages and guru yoga, are more effective for giving rise to vipaśyanā because there is no intellectual analysis involved. It is based on a direct perception, no matter how fleeting, not inferred through reasoning and analysis.

Astus wrote:
What do you call then instructions like these?

'Establishing the appearance of the mind 
is like a thief in an empty house. 
It is beyond color, form, shape, and characteristics. 
There is no searcher and no object of a search. 
This is my heart's advice. 
Mind and conceptual thought are like water and ice. 
They have always been inseparable, 
yet cannot be said to be one thing or two. 
This is my heart's advice. 
The inseparability of appearance and mind 
is like last night's dream. 
It possesses the four characteristics 
and is the union of appearance and emptiness. 
It cannot be said to be one thing or two. 
This is my heart's advice.'
(The Jewel Treasury of Advice, p 35)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
You have somehow totally missed the point of energy, the heart chakra, the bindus,  and rainbow light.

Astus wrote:
I studied and heard mainly some sutra-style Mahamudra teachings, so I'm not particularly familiar with other parts of Vajrayana.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
Without empowerment, a guru is just a common Mahāyāna guru, there is no guru yoga in common Mahāyāna.. Guru Yoga is method which strictly belongs to Highest Yoga Tantra. So no, it is not an acceptable distinction. Guru Yoga is also connected with the so-called subtle body, and is not merely a practice of devotion, as is commonly misunderstood.

Astus wrote:
I did not mean the guru yoga as part of sutra but as part of Vajrayana. The distiction I asked about was regarding the difference of methods getting to the point of being capable of performing vipasyana.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 4:28 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
Perhaps he did equate Madyamaka with Mahāmudra (textual citation please), but how is this different than equating the gnosis of Prajñāpārāmitā with Mahāmudra?

Astus wrote:
Maitripa's teachings on amanasikara is mentioned as such, because of Madhyamaka and Vajrayana bringing one equally to it, so that is no different from equating the gnosis of both.

Malcolm said:
But in this text, Maitripa is clearly claiming that Mantrayāna is superior in method. I mean, what else is there to say?

Astus wrote:
Gampopa and others have said the same of course. Still one question is left. Even after empowerments and generation stage practices what is used to introduce Mahamudra, the nature of mind, is not necessarily candali but often samatha and vipasyana, where vipasyana means same or similar pointers as what is in the sutras and treatises. So when it comes to meeting face to face with reality, not only the reality seen, but also the immediately preceding directions to it can be the same. Therefore the methodical difference between Paramitayana and Vajrayana primarily in how one arrives at the point to be capable of genuine vipasyana, where the former has studies and samatha, the latter has abhiseka, deity yoga, candali, etc., but most importantly guru yoga for the same purposes. Is that an acceptable distinction according to you?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
You won’t find any statement of gampopa himself saying you don’t need any sort of empowerment, whether elaborate or unelaborate.  You present a few quotations that might suggest this, but they run counter to the experience of the vast majority of living and dead kagyu masters.

Astus wrote:
Why not look for where Gampopa states one needs any sort of empowerment for Mahamudra? The quotations so far clearly differentiated the "tantra" from the "sutra" version, and for the tantric it's unambiguous about the need for empowerment. At the same time, Kagyupas have been under attack since the time of Sakya Pandita that they teach Mahamudra outside the standard HYT system, and various teachers defended their position regarding the validity of Gampopa's Mahamudra. Were they all arguing about nothing? If "unelaborate empowerment" is the pointing out instruction, that is, the very method that Mahamudra is taught, then likely those who debate the absence of empowerment mean the complete four empowerments and they do not accept the possibility that direct introduction equals the fourth empowerment and is sufficient on its own.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 3:37 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The  poimt against is it is misleading.

Astus wrote:
Why not then correct it?

Crazywisdom said:
Some want to validate nonlineage book based enlightenment to   prop themselves up as a web   guru with  cut and paste instructions.

Astus wrote:
That would be counterproductive. If books were enough, there would be no point to prop oneself up as a guru of any sort. One should rather emphasise one's own credentials as a reliable source in order to highlight a personal authority.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 3:30 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
I was refuting your citations, showing how they do not match the claims put forward for them. If others make errors, why should the one who points them out be held at fault?

Astus wrote:
What do you then make of Maitripa's teachings, who is often named as the Indian source of equating Mahamudra with Madhyamaka?

'This teaching tradition of Maitripa’s Middle Way lineage was given the name “Mahāmudrā,” the same name that is renowned in the anuttara class of secret mantra as the wisdom of bliss and emptiness. Various terms have been created to give a name to the state in which the view of this form of the Middle Way has taken birth in one’s mindstream. They include “making manifest the ordinary mind” and “making manifest the dharmakāya.” Also, when apparent phenomena (chöchen/chos can)—sprouts, thoughts, and so on—are realized not to exist apart from their own true nature (chönyi/chos nyid), this realization has been called “thoughts dawning as the dharmakāya.”
The lineage for this teaching system is the same as the lineage described above from Gampopa onward, starting with lord Düsum Khyenpa.'
(The Karmapa’s Middle Way: Feast for the Fortunate, p 85-86)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
Likewise, you can call Prajñāpāramitā "mahāmudra" if your goal is to inspire unfortunate yogis, as Jñānakīrti maintains, but it is still just calling something a name for which it lacks proper attributes; for example, calling a dog "Lion," or a small hill a "mountain," or a tiny pond a "lake" or a huge man "little."

Astus wrote:
So would you say then that Kagyupas are quite mistaken, that what has been called one of the main http://namobuddhapub.org/files/teachings/ThranguR-Mahamudra_and_the_Kagyu_Lineage.pdf over the centuries is fictitious?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
Therefore, we can understand the term "mahāmudra" exists exclusively the tantras.

Astus wrote:
Even if that were so, apparently Kagyupas, starting with Gampopa, taught what is now called sutra Mahamudra, and it is a unique teaching of this tradition, and there's an offshoot Mahamudra among the Gelugpas, where they also teach it as a separate one from tantra Mahamudra.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
Too bad you did not read Jñānakīrti's whole text. You are merely dancing on books you cannot even read in the original. Just cherry picking citations because they suit your biases. Sorry, but this is the case.

Astus wrote:
It was Jamgon Kongtrul who quoted that passage from Jnanakirti in order to prove his point. Others have also referred to him to show the same.

'Jamyang Sakya Pandita says in Distinguishing the Three Vows:
Our Mahāmudrā
Is the gnosis arising from initiation.
Relying on that passage, some say there is no term for Mahāmudrā in the sutra system. I think it is unacceptable to say this, for it has been explained by many pandits, adepts, and scholars that superior, middling, and lesser perfection-vehicle students, abiding with a stable mind in tranquil abiding and superior insight, meditate on the nonduality of method and wisdom, which is Mahāmudrā. Jñānakīrti’s Distinguishing Clearly the Entire Sum of the Buddha’s Words says:
Those with superior faculties who are especially diligent in the perfection vehicle, meditate on tranquil abiding and superior insight, and right from the time they are ordinary individuals, they have a perfect realization arising from Mahāmudrā; because of that, they obtain the signs of irreversibility.
Jñānakīrti also states in the same text:
These superior students also meditate first on tranquil abiding and superior insight in order to enter the meditation preparatory to the nondual Mahāmudrā.
Not only that; the term Mahāmudrā is used for emptiness. The King of Concentration Sutra says, “The intrinsic nature of all dharmas is Mahāmudrā.” This point is taught in this and other passages.'
(The Crystal Mirror of Philosophical Systems, p 149-150)

'The finger of mahamudra points to the momentary awareness, which does not come down on either of the [two] sides, appearance or emptiness. Thus say those versed in the pith instructions. Even though this tradition belongs to the Paramitayana, it is labeled mahamudra. Thus it is explained in the Tattvadasakatika by Sahajavajra. It is also explained in the Tattvavatara by Jnanakirti in the root text and its commentary.'
(A Direct Path to the Buddha Within, p 188-189)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
What if I crave for liberation?
What if I desire realisation?

Astus wrote:
Craving liberation is not the same as reaching it. But when reached, there's no more craving. See: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.015.than.html.

Grigoris said:
If I hate the afflictions?

Astus wrote:
“Having slain anger, one sleeps soundly;
Having slain anger, one does not sorrow;
The killing of anger, O devatā,
With its poisoned root and honeyed tip:
This is the killing the noble ones praise,
For having slain that, one does not sorrow.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn1.71/en/bodhi )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
I don’t think he would mean that you could practice this without receiving some instruction equivalent to the fourth empowerment.

Astus wrote:
If pointing out instructions are equivalent to the fourth empowerment, then no. Otherwise, yes, he does say that no empowerment is needed.

PeterC said:
Is he saying that recognition of nature of mind does not require any form of empowerment?  That the pointing out is just words?

Astus wrote:
Here's more from Thrangu Rinpoche, on pointing out instructions:

'There is also the tradition of pointing out the nature of mind, in which there’s some sort of vigorous manner of causing the students to recognize it on the spot without their going through this kind of gradual investigation. This is very impressive, and often people have an experience of recognition, but soon thereafter it vanishes. The superiority of the gradual approach is that, while less dramatic initially, when you develop on your own a recognition through experience and through hard work, then you don’t lose it, you know; it’s because you developed it, and you get to work with it. Initially, the recognition starts to occur and is not that stable, then it’s stabilized, then you gradually develop confidence in the recognition, and on the basis of confidence, you learn, through practice, through time and effort, how to rest in it.'
(Pointing Out the Dharmakaya, p 136-137)

'In short, I think it is of far more importance that people receive this kind of complete and systematic instruction so that they can gradually develop experience on their own, than that some kind of dramatic pointing-out procedure be done. Of course, it is possible to give dramatic pointing-out instruction, and when you do so, some people do recognize their mind’s nature. But, if I may say so, I question the stability and, therefore, ultimately the value of that. It certainly is a dramatic experience for those people who achieve it, but I see no evidence of their kleshas diminishing as a result. And furthermore, they then carry away with them the arrogance of the thought, “I have seen my mind’s nature.” I think it is of far greater importance actually to practice meditation slowly and surely and make all possible use of the resources which this book in particular gives you. It is after all a big book and contains within it much instruction, much guidance, and a lot of questions that can help you to question and therefore refine your own experience.'
(Ocean of Definitive Meaning, p 127-128)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
Doesn’t it occur to you that this is Kongtrul basically acceding to Sapan’s objections?

Astus wrote:
From a few sentences before, on the same page:

'Concerning this, the dharma lord Sakya Panchen asserted:
"Mahamudra is not designated in the tradition of the perfections. The pristine awareness of mahamudra only arises from empowerment."
Adhering to this position, the bigshots broadcast much meaningless chatter, but as the master Jnanakirti stated in Entry into Suchness:
"The other term for the Mother Perfection of Wisdom is mahamudra, because it is the very essence of nondual pristine awareness."'

What is emphasised as a difference between standard paramitayana and mahamudra is the special instructions, i.e. pointing out the nature of mind, that is, instead of starting with the emptiness of objects, it points to the emptiness of the subject.

'In the sutra systems it is taught that without first resolving the object grasped upon, the subject—the fixated mind—cannot be resolved. ... In our case, we believe that proceeding in that way leads to a lot of difficulty in resolving the fixating mind. Therefore we first resolve the fixating mind, whereby the object of grasping becomes resolved by being self-liberated.'
(The Royal Seal of Mahamudra, vol 1, p 266, 267)

Also, a remark from Situ Tenpai Nyinje:

'These principal instructions for gaining certainty, such as looking for the mind, have been made the subject of ridicule by some Tibetans, but that's the same as all the superficial things I've ever heard. ... [Nagarjuna's] Commentary on Bodhicitta and other texts give this same teaching in a brief form. It seems therefore that those [Tibetans who mock the instructions] haven't read these texts. Kamalasila explains in detail how to search for the mind in his Stages of Meditation, where he provides quotations from the Heap of jewels (Ratnakuta) Sutra.'
(Oral Transmission of the Supreme Siddhas by Situ Tenpai Nyinje, in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 248-249)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 7:28 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
I already answered that, using the fire metaphor.

Astus wrote:
Is https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542794#p542774 the metaphor you refer to? That was more like a riddle, furthermore, if it's a metaphor, please provide what it was a metaphor of. Also, how can you crave without craving?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 7:15 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
Go Lotsawa was writing about four hundred years after Gampopa, if I remember the dates correctly.  In Gampopa's own writings he repeatedly states the importance of empowerment. See the two texts Tony Duff translated of his.

Astus wrote:
Is Jamgon Kongtrul wrong then?

'Dakpo Rinpoché induced the realization of mahamudra even in beginners who had not received empowerment. Therefore this is the tradition of the perfections. These are instructions arising primarily from the Kadampa tradition.'
(Treasury of Knowledge, vol 9, p 212)

And Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche?

'The Sutrayana approach to Mahamudra is seen as a very profound method because it does not require any of the sophisticated and complex tantric rituals, deity yoga visualization practices, or samayas. It is a simple sutra approach, yet it conveys the direct transmission of the tantric essence of awakening. This particular approach is also known as a secret passage. 
...
The Sutra Mahamudra approach is seen as a specialty of the Kagyu tradition and was the central emphasis of Gampopa's teachings. Therefore, although it originated in India and was also taught by Marpa and Milarepa, Gampopa is regarded as the main figure responsible for bringing this teaching to its full development and manifestation.'
(Wild Awakening, p 32, 33)

PeterC said:
There are Kagyupas who say things like that, and there are Kagyupas who would not.  Of those who would say that, some would qualify it by saying that the pointing out instruction, which is central to the practice of Kagyu Mahamudra, could also be interpreted as a form of the fourth empowerment. Those who would not say that typically give an empowerment whenever they do a teaching on Mahamudra.

Astus wrote:
Jamgon Kongtrul also notes (ToK, v9, p 213): 'It has been the practice of most of Dakpo’s heart disciples to present the mahamudra instructions after having first bestowed the empowerment.'

The same practice of mixing is also noted by Tashi Namgyal:
'In the present age, Mahamudra and Mantrayana [tantric mysticism] are being blended and meditated upon in order to enhance realization. Many tantric elements are also incorporated into the preparatory practices. For those who wish to practice these, the empowerment for actualizing the inner potentiality is certainly essential.'
(Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 125)

PeterC said:
So it's a distinction without a difference.

Astus wrote:
It's a distinction made by Thrangu Rinpoche.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 6:43 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
I base thiis assumption on the fact  you  obviously do not know how gurus transmit this, Kagyu gurus. I spent years w one and he introduced my to many other kagyus, Karma Kagyu, Taklung Kagyu *(a holiness), MANY.... no one ever said mahamudra  without guru yoga. No guru yoga in kagyu ever was without deity yoga.   So i am  calling you out   as a liar buddy

Astus wrote:
You attribute to me things I did not even write. Furthermore, I have clearly given the sources of specific statements. If you say the sources are wrong, that might be so. If you have better ones, why not present them?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
None.  But Vajrayana also does not believe in the efficacy of renunciation (or more to the point:  it does not consider it the most efficient manner to achieve liberation).  That puts it directly at odds with the Sravakayana.

Astus wrote:
If it does not renounce the three poisons, does it simply deny their existence? Because if it accepts that beings are driven by them, then either one can go by obeying the impulses, or not. Not obeying is renunciation.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
to transform ordinary daily conduct and bring it into the path by replacing impure conceptuality with pure conceptuality.

Astus wrote:
Why would it produce a different mental habit regarding clinging to sense pleasures if one eats the pie as a dessert or as an offering, since actually one eats it because of its taste? Of course, it adds something good to it, but it how would it change the basic intention?

Malcolm said:
When one is on an island composed entirely of gold, one will have attachment to no specific part of it, one will have no discrimination towards anything on it, and thereby, one is freed of clinging.

Astus wrote:
On an island of gold one does not hoard gold, one does not want gold at all. So seeing an apple pie then is no different from seeing an empty plate, and one normally does not think much about empty plates. But still, it does not answer what makes the Vajrayana method more efficient.

Malcolm said:
We already think of ourselves, this is a given. In other words, in just the same way as fire is used to put out fire, or water is used to draw water out of the ear, the creation stage uses conceptuality to overcome conceptuality. Hence it is more profound than methods which try to suppress or eliminate conceptuality, such as those you mention above.

Astus wrote:
I can see how changing one's view about oneself can be helpful, if one has sufficient faith of course, and then it still takes practice, like for instance to remind oneself of being a buddha and not a glutton. At the same time, one could also remind oneself of all sorts of other teachings to help alleviating harmful impulses. So while for some it might be easier to believe in one's own buddha state, for others to contemplate the drawbacks of indulgence, for others to simply recognise the intention as baseless, and so on.

Malcolm said:
These above teachings are consistent with the path of renunciation. However, they are contradicted by the higher teachings of Vajrayāna, the path of transfomation, and the citations illustrating this point have already been provided above, so there is no need to repeat them here.

Astus wrote:
It's been stated that Vajrayana takes appearances on the path, but as for how that is different from not grasping them through recognition of their emptiness (as taught for instance in https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542869#p542869 ), has so far not been demonstrated. Yes, skandhas are buddhas, and buddhas are pure beings, and thinking of oneself as a pure being is a unique method of Vajrayana. But even if one can reimagine oneself, that in itself does not liberate one from the three poisons, does it?

Malcolm said:
As also mentioned above, the Buddha's teachings of sūtra are for those with a) less affliction, and b) less capability. But contrast, Vajrayāna teachings are designed for those with a) greater affliction, and b) greater capabilities.
Therefore, can either accept the Buddha's teachings in the tantras, in which case, one has no choice but to become a Vajrayāna practitioner; but failing that, if one cannot generate faith in these teachings, then leave them aside, but do not criticize them, because there in lies the fault of criticizing the Dharma.

Astus wrote:
I said nothing against Vajrayana, not that it is not efficient, not that it is less efficient, not that it is for less capable or dull people. On the other hand, claims like that have been said against every non-Vajrayana teaching. So I'm asking about some clear reasons for such an opinion.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
What you are missing is this avoidance attitude is for monks. Further, it is for monks who are not working on completion stage.

Astus wrote:
Not just for monks.

'When thoughts of sensual desire arise in him towards his own wife, and he comes under the influence of reactive emotions, then, seeing the foulness of his wife and with a frightened mind, he should not be bound by attachment to engaging in sensual pleasures, and should always reflect on impermanence, nonself, and impurity.'
(Inquiry of Ugra Sutra (Ugradattaparipṛcchāsūtra) quoted in The Training Anthology of Santideva, p 81, tr Charles Goodman)

Crazywisdom said:
One is not at all greedy at the point of completion stage.

Astus wrote:
How has greed disappeared by then? Also, if it's gone, there is no intention at all to simply enjoy sense pleasures.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
What you cannot seem to accept is this is taught through the Dohas which are the pith instruction lineage. And you cannot practice this witout a guru. There is no chance to do this by reading a book.

Astus wrote:
What do you base that assumption on? The requirement of receiving the teachings of Mahamudra/Vajrayana from a guru, and being devoted to him/her is repeated practically everywhere. What would be the point of me denying that?

'Devotion is the head of meditation, it is taught.
The lama opens the door to the profound oral teachings
To the meditator who always turns to him,
Grant your blessing that uncontrived devotion be born within.'
( http://www.rinpoche.com/dchng.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm said:
It still requires an empowerment. The so-called "descent of the gnosis vajra empowerment" discussed by Indrabhūti in the Jñānasiddhi.

Astus wrote:
That is like Sakya Pandita's criticism of the Kagyupas, something that they rejected/refuted.

'Now the Venerable Mid-la did not teach the upaya-marga and the Mahamudra separately, but sGam-po-pa used to preach the hidden precepts of the upaya-marga to those only whom he considered fit tot receive Tantric initiations. (On the other hand) he used to bestow the hidden precepts of the Mahamudra on those who were fit to receive the paramitas, though they did not get any (Tantric) initiation.'
(The Blue Annals, p 459)

'Regarding the manner of imparting the profound path [of Mahamudra], the venerable Gampopa considered it to be an independent path of tantra. So he did not make the esoteric empowerment a prerequisite for receiving the Mahamudra teachings.He spoke about the method of directly guiding the disciple toward the intrinsic reality of the mind.'
(Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 123)

'Now, in the cultivation of the path of method, three things are necessary: the empowerments which ripen, the reading transmissions which provide support, and the instructions which bring liberation. For the practice of the path of liberation, however, there is no particular empowerment that is required, because the practice itself consists of the two practices of tranquility and insight alone.'
(The Ninth Karmapa's Ocean of Definitive Meaning by Thrangu Rinpoche, p 57)

Malcolm said:
The main practice of course here is guru yoga, this is the "blessings" part.

Astus wrote:
If by this you mean that guru yoga is sufficient, then that agrees with Situ Tenpai (Oral Transmission of the Supreme Siddhas in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 204-205).

Malcolm said:
In this respect, Gampopa is cribbing his early training as a practitioner of Nyingma tantras, and the Mind Series (sems sde) in particular.

Astus wrote:
Based on Gampopa's teachings it's more likely from the Kadampas, if anyone.

'In line with the texts by Monlarn Tsiiltrim, these instructions are further evidence that Mahamudra style teachings existed in the Kadampa School, that this was the case even before Gampopa, and that Gampopa received such instructions.'
(When the Clouds Part, p 198)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
So now you accept Drikung Kagyu? Essence Mahamudra is not a yana, it is based on Mahamudra Tilaka Tantra and others. It is tantric.

Astus wrote:
If we take Gampopa's word on it, Mahamudra per se is neither sutra nor tantra, but beyond them.

'In his texts, Gampopa distinguishes three main paths. (1) The paramitayana is called “the path of renunciation” and “the path of accumulation,” which relies on inferential analysis and is for those who have faith and are of dull faculties. (2) The path of mantra is labeled “the path of transformation” and “the path of means,” which relies on direct perception and is for those who are afflicted and of medium faculties. (3) The path of Mahamudra is “the path of prajna” and “the path of suchness,” which relies on blessing and is for those who are intelligent and of sharp faculties. He also describes these three paths as follows:

(1) As for taking inference as the path, after having scrutinized all phenomena through arguments [such as] being beyond singularity and multiplicity, one says that there is no [other] possibility [for phenomena to be] than these [possibilities that one has examined] and then posits that everything is empty. [This is the path of] inference.
(2) [The practice of] nadls, vayus, and tilakas,782 the repeated recitation of mantras, and so on, which are based on the generation stage of the deity’s body, make up the path of blessing.
(3) As for taking direct perceptions as the path, a genuine guru says that connate mind as such is the luminous dharmakaya. Through having been taught an unmistaken instruction of definitive meaning like that, one then takes native mind as the path, without separating the triad of view, conduct, and meditation in terms of this connate mind about which one has gained certainty within oneself.

Elsewhere, Gampopa explicitly states that Mahamudra is the highest path that actually transcends both sutra and tantra. All of this clearly suggests that Gampopa considered Mahamudra per se as a path that does not belong to either sutra or tantra but lies beyond both. In practice, most of Gampopa s preserved teachings consist primarily of sutra-based instructions and then conclude with Mahâmudrâ, either not teaching the path of mantra at all or mentioning it only in passing.'
(When the Clouds Part, p 192-193)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
White Sakura said:
Is it correct to say to my son: "There are three vehicles, Sutra, Tantra and Mahamudra"- withhout mentioning Dzogchen?

Astus wrote:
There are Sutrayana and Vajrayana, and within Vajrayana there are the Path of Means (thabs lam) and the Path of Liberation (grol lam). It is the path of liberation where you find sutra and essence Mahamudra, while the path of means includes tantra Mahamudra. At the same time, Hinayana includes the Sravakayana and Pratyekabuddhayana, while Mahayana has the common and uncommon paths; of those Hinayana and common Mahayana is Sutrayana, and the uncommon Mahayana is Vajrayana.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 13th, 2020 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
jake said:
Please return to the topic. Thanks!

Astus wrote:
It might be split from around https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542722#p542722 or https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542738#p542738.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 13th, 2020 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Based in a to achieve buddhahood to benefit all beings eat the apple pie and enjoy it. You are a bodhisattva now. No need to  rush.

Astus wrote:
That does not seem to agree with the teachings.

'Take food as medicine, in the right amount,
Without attachment, without hatefulness:
Don’t eat for vanity, for pride or ego’s sake,
Eat only for your body’s sustenance.'
(Letter to a Friend by Nagarjuna, v 38, tr Padmakara Translation Group)

'Buddhas told those with desire
That food, clothes and dwellings are all
To be avoided and to remain
Close to their spiritual guides.'
(Four Hundred Stanzas by Aryadeva, v 138, tr Ruth Sonam)

'Most sentient beings are greedy for tastes; for the sake of food, they commit vile actions and are born in the hells. But those who {know the Dharma} are contented, not greedy, free from longing; they do not bow down to the sense of taste, but are contented and can be nourished even with very low-quality food.'
(Multitude of Jewels Sutra (Ratnarāśisūtra) quoted in The Training Anthology of Santideva, p 127, tr Charles Goodman)

See also: https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225714.html

Crazywisdom said:
Vajrayana is based on this attitude. There is the deity yoga you mentioned. At this stage one conceptually views the pie as the consort.

Astus wrote:
How does that help in not feeding one of the root causes of samsara?

Crazywisdom said:
At  the completion stage one has directed one's  essential elements into the central channel so  one is fully dedicated to bliss. Seeing the empty  nature of  bliss becomes very clear and unborn enlightment itself, one eats the pie or  does whatever is being offered or presented as a spontaneous benefit.

Astus wrote:
If one knows that the object of desire is unreal, there is no more basis for desire to arise, just as one may crave, vie, and even kill for money, but not for fake bills. If the method given is to see that whatever enjoyment may come is empty, how is that any different from what is taught in the sutras?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
In sūtra there is no antidotal method of conceiving the appearance of things as pure which are typically conceived by ordinary sentient being as impure. Emptiness, in sutra, is provided as cure for this, in terms of nature, but not in terms of appearance. Vajrayāna address both nature and appearance; sūtra only addresses nature, not appearance.

Astus wrote:
One sees a tasty looking apple pie. How not to fall into craving? For instance, the Vitakkasanthana Sutta gives five (progressive) methods: pay attention to something else (that is conducive to good thoughts), consider the drawbacks of craving, forget and pay no attention to it, relax the mental fabrications/concoctions about it, subdue the thoughts by force. Or one can think of it as something disgusting, something undesirable; or as something insubstantial, meaningless, and worthless. How would Vajrayana address this situation? If one thinks one is a buddha one can just give in to any impulse?

Malcolm said:
The distinction between the the common and uncommon Mahāyāna is principally the difference between method, the latter being more efficacious and more rapid. One does not merely regard oneself as buddhanatured, causally, one regards oneself as a buddha from the outset of entering the path. One does not regard one's teacher as being "like a buddha," one regards one's master as an actual buddha right from the outset and so on, based on the special methods of abhiṣeka, sadhana, and so forth.

Astus wrote:
How does it make it more efficacious to think of oneself being a buddha, instead of not to think of oneself as anything at all?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
also found extensively taught and practiced in Drukpa Kagyu as well.

Astus wrote:
Thanks, that's good to know.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Well Gampopa taught fivefold path mahamudra to practitioners and sutra mahamudra to laypersons.

Astus wrote:
The Fivefold Mahamudra is a teaching of the Drikungpas coming from Jigten Sumgon. Gampopa taught to a few close disciples candali, to everyone else (monastic or not) he taught what is now called Sutra Mahamudra, and regarding the reason behind that distinction between the two approaches:

'The Mahāmudrā of bliss and emptiness on the path of means
Is the actual practice of secret mantra,
But those who practise it are few and far between.
The Mahāmudrā of the innate on the path of liberation
Is an easier practice offering great reward at little risk,
And is of benefit to all, regardless of capacity.'
( https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/jamgon-kongtrul/mahamudra-swift-lord-of-realization )


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Wrong. It is completion stage where  subtle obscuration is removed.  The Dalai Lama is good at explaining it. Visualization of  buddhas is not going to do that.

Astus wrote:
And in completion stage what does it mean to see the five skandhas as the five buddhas?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 3:51 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
Then you've misunderstood what "ordinary conceptuality" means. What does it mean? It means to conceive the five buddhas, the five mothers, the male and female bodhisattvas as skandhas, elements, sense organs and sense objects.

Astus wrote:
Then instead of me https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542869#p542869 it, let's be more specific. For instance, what is perceiving Vairocana in/as the sound of a doorbell? How is it something other than the standard 'form is emptiness, emptiness is form'?

Malcolm said:
The sūtras do not teach that the five skandhas, five elements, sense organs, sense objects and so on, are, their real nature, the mandala of the five buddhas, five mothers, etc.

Astus wrote:
The sutras teach the indivisibility of the two truths, and its realisation. Vajrayana may put that into a practice of visualising buddhas, but the point is still to get rid of grasping at phenomena.

Malcolm said:
Incorrect. The methodical difference is related to both kinds of gnosis, not merely the first, since in ordinary persons, the second arises from the first.

Astus wrote:
Real wisdom is the defining attainment of noble beings, and it is realised through vipasyana, wouldn't you agree?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 7:20 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The wisdom is the same in sutra and tantra. But the methods are quite different.

Astus wrote:
It is through removing the two obscurations with wisdom that one arrives at buddhahood (Uttaratantra Shastra, 7.390-391), as buddha-nature itself is already complete with perfect qualities.

As Gampopa stated:
'When one is endowed with the meaning of emptiness, there is not a single thing which in not included in this path'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 252)

One can also obtain wisdom through a https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225467.html, by a https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225468.html, or https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225469.html.

Again, from Gampopa:
'In that case, if all these are included in meditating on only the essence or the mind-as-such, why do there appear teachings on so many graduated methods? It is for the purpose of leading all those sentient beings of little fortune, who are ignorant in the ultimate nature.'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 254-255)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 5:50 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
The difference is not view nor the goal, Buddhahood, the difference is in method, the intelligence of the trainee, and so on.

Astus wrote:
And that difference in method is the question. You have kindly provided https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542802#p542802 of Vajrayana methods, where it was made clear that the difference proposed was how it's not the five objects of desires that are given up but 'the ordinary conceptuality about the five objects of desire that is the root of all attachment and aversion'. To that I https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542869#p542869 that it is no different from what is done in Sutrayana. Then the efficacy of seeing the emptiness of appearances was https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542875#p542875, and https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542901#p542901 by showing that there is no difference in freedom from proliferation. So, how is there a difference in method, when the method of Vajrayana is to eliminate ordinary concepts instead of objects, and so it is with Sutrayana too? But if the absence of proliferation is not a method, then Vajrayana doesn't have it either. Or it could be said that the difference lies in the method of attaining nonconceptual wisdom, but then the problem is in proposing wisdom that can be used in Vajrayana as a method where the five objects of desire are not eliminated.

Malcolm said:
Secret Mantra is superior because the wisdom which arises in the mind at the time of the descent of gnosis, or third empowerment and so forth, is freedom from proliferation realized directly.

Astus wrote:
That is an answer then to have wisdom available from the start, although the third empowerment is said to be only an example, and the fourth is the actual realisation that is the level of Dzogchen (Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 2, p 130-132) and Mahamudra (e.g. The Treasury of Knowledge, vol 6, p 231-233; further elaborated in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 485-490). The verbal instruction to directly see the nature of mind is found in both the Vajrayana and the Sutrayana (Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 181), so if there is a methodical difference, it is related to the example wisdom, but not the real one.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
How can one distinguish a conceptual emptiness from the actual luminosity with these sentences?

Astus wrote:
That was not the subject of the post, so it shouldn't be something to look for there.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
The question that must be posed then is: how does sutra transform ordinary conceptuality? Seeing appearances as insubstantial does not transform them into pure phenomena that maybe be readily enjoyed by the practitioner.

Astus wrote:
If by seeing them as insubstantial you mean a conceptual label, sure, that doesn't help that much. But that is a known mistake. However, if it is actually seeing their emptiness, in other words, not falling into extreme concepts about them, then that is no different from what is taught in Vajrayana about how to take appearances as/on the path. On the fourth Dharma of Gampopa, where both the Sutrayana and Vajrayana approaches are mentioned, Ringu Tulku comments:

'When you compare the Vajrayana approach with the Sutrayana approach, you see there is no real difference between them. The Sutrayana way is to look at the deluded mind and see it as relative rather than real; the mind is like a dream or an illusion. Then, this understanding is applied to all phenomena so that everything is recognized as illusory. The Vajrayana approach is to see that the deluded mind has the nature of wisdom.'
(Confusion Arises as Wisdom, p 48)

There are some differences mentioned between Sutrayana (analytic, indirect, slow) and Vajrayana (non-analytic, direct, quick) (also by Thrangu Rinpoche, as in http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/3vehicles.pdf, p 90, 92 & Creation and Completion, p 121-122), however, such characterisation of sutric methods is a limited interpretation, as directly looking at the nature of experience (instead of making theoretical deductions about it) is very much the way insight meditation is practised from Tiantai to Theravada.

'One turns back the attention and contemplates the mind which engages in actions. One then fails to perceive any characteristic appearance. One should then realize that the agent of actions as well as all of the dharmas involved in engaging in actions are ultimately empty and still. It is this which constitutes the cultivation of [insight] contemplation.'
( http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/EBM_excerpts/EBM_X-16_X-06.pdf, p 14)

'Mindfulness is nonconceptual awareness. Another English term for Sati is 'bare attention'. It is not thinking. It does not get involved with thought or concepts. It does not get hung up on ideas or opinions or memories. It just looks. Mindfulness registers experiences, but it does not compare them. It does not label them or categorize them. It just observes everything as if it was occurring for the first time. It is not analysis which is based on reflection and memory. It is, rather, the direct and immediate experiencing of whatever is happening, without the medium of thought. It comes before thought in the perceptual process.'
( https://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english_15.php )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 7:01 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
This is not essential, it is relative.  Ask a pyromaniac, for example, then ask somebody that is cold.

Astus wrote:
You asked about the "essential difference" between them. Difference is relative. But then, why not you tell it?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 6:24 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
But in Vajrayāna, we do not give up the basis, that is, the five objects of desire.

Astus wrote:
They are objects of desire because one desires them, not because sights, sounds, etc. are desirable in and of themselves. This is understood even in the agamas/nikayas.

'The eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there.'
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.191.than.html )

Similarly, it is one's view of things that is changed, not the things themselves.

'One is not freed by existence; 
One does not transcend samsara through non-existence; 
It’s through understanding existence and non-existence 
That the great beings are liberated. 
Those who do not see ultimate reality 
Grasp at samsara and nirvana; 
But those who see ultimate reality possess 
No pretentions of world and its’ transcendence.'
( https://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/SixtyStanzas.pdf, v 4-5)

So, as in your quotes from Loppön Sonam Tsemo, the solution lies in 'having given up the intrinsic cause of bondage [i.e. deceived concepts,] the objects which [earlier] became the condition of that [bondage] [now] become the condition of liberation'; 'the ordinary ceases, everything will be given up'; 'non-conceptual samadhi removes conceptuality, all bonds will be respectively released'; and as a summary of the same: 'if the intrinsic nature of that cause is dispelled by the two methods [above], since the aspect of the objects has changed, again one can depend on objects since they have been transformed into assisting antidotes'. And you as well kindly summarised the main point:
The problem of liberation is not to be quickly resolved by renunciation of the five objects of desire, rather, it is to be quickly resolved by relinquishing the ordinary conceptuality about the five objects of desire that is the root of all attachment and aversion.
The same is taught under the topic of transformation of emotions in The Heart Treasure of the Enlightened Ones, for example regarding anger (p 126):

'If you recognize the nature of anger as void, it loses all its power to harm and becomes mirrorlike wisdom; but if you fail to recognize its nature and give it free rein, it will be no less than the very source of the scorching and freezing torments of hell.'

And by others as well, like Thrangu Rinpoche's summary about http://www.purifymind.com/ObstaclesPath.htm.

The reason I repeated and expanded on what I think you said about Vajrayana's unique approach is to try to ensure we are on the same page here. But then, I don't see the sutras teaching anything else. Seeing things as they are is to see that appearances are insubstantial, that they are actually ungraspable and inconceivable. When that is clear, there is no basis for clinging. How are then the sutras saying anything different?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
One fire burns and destroys, the other fire warms and nurtures.  What is the essential difference between the two types of flames?

Astus wrote:
The essential difference is in how they are qualified/described.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
There are two ways be free of grasping: regarding all things as impure and rejecting them as such (Hinayāna and common Mahāyāna), and regarding all things as pure and accepting them as such. The latter method more rapid, but requires special methods, so that it is not merely an intellectual posture.

Astus wrote:
I don't think any path promotes accepting or rejecting as the way to go. Rather, to be free of grasping, one needs to see things as they actually are.

'It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.'
( https://suttacentral.net/dn22/en/sujato )

'The perfect Way is not difficult;
It only avoids discrimination.
If only there is no love or hate,
Completely clean and clear is it.'
(The Faith-Mind Maxim, in Three Chan Classics, BDK ed, p 123)

At the same time:

'On the basis of strong renunciation, any kind of Dharma practice, even a very simple one, can be a cause to attain enlightenment. On the other hand, without such renunciation, even very high tantra or any other profound Dharma practice will not lead us to freedom from samsara.'
(A Complete Guide to the Buddhist Path by Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen, p 141)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
For example, Śrāvaka bhikṣus cannot handle gold, but may eat meat. Mahāyāna bhikṣus may handle gold, but may not eat meat. Vajrayāna bhikṣu may both handle gold and eat meat.

Astus wrote:
The state of being a bhiksu is a matter of ordination, and it is regulated by the pratimoksa. Being a sravaka/mahayanika/vajrayanika is a matter of view and practice. How does one influence the other?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
The distinction generally drawn is between renunciation (three lower vehicles) and transformation (kriya tantra to anuyoga). In Vajrayāna, through skillful means:

"That by which fools are bound,
by that same thing the wise are liberated."

--Saraha.

Astus wrote:
Even if such distinctions were accepted, the end result would still be the same liberation. Appearances are selfless, empty, buddhas, or self-liberated - it's either one is lost in clinging or not.

'It is said that all the learned and accomplished masters of India and Tibet had the same realization and there is not a single master who claims that the realization of the main part of practice is anything other than nonfixation.'
(Naturally Liberating Whatever You Meet: Instructions to Guide You on the Profound Path by Khenpo Gangshar, in Vivid Awareness, p 227)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
And if one accepts the Vidyādhara piṭaka???

Astus wrote:
Nope, there must be limits.

Malcolm said:
the Buddha's higher teachings regularly conflict with the Buddha's lower teachings, and this is determined by content alone, and not provenance.

Astus wrote:
I don't really see those conflicts, but I guess that is already another conflict.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
the vaipulyapiṭaka and dhāraṇīpiṭaka of the Mahāsānghikas are not extant baskets of scripture.

Astus wrote:
It was merely an example. The point is that if one takes the whole Taisho Tripitaka as a basis, then the given method of comparing teachings to the scriptures found in the Taisho is still operational.

Caoimhghín said:
(I actually know the language of bodhisattvapiṭaka, where did you vaipulyapiṭaka from?)

Astus wrote:
I've seen somewhere before. But bodhisattvapitaka works as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 6:27 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
Some of the skillful qualities cultivated in tantric system are directly at odds with basic tenets in the Sravakayana.

Astus wrote:
Skilful qualities (kusala dharma) are those that are free from craving, anger, and delusion (see: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html#kusala ). What is it that Vajrayana considers skilful that is rooted in the three poisons?

'To realize the perfect view is to be totally free from the five poisons, the emotions which keep us enslaved in samsara. As the five poisons disappear, the five corresponding wisdoms are revealed.'
(The Heart Treasure of the Enlightened Ones, p 125)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 5:59 PM
Title: Re: Are all phenomena equally empty in Madhyamaka?
Content:
akuppa said:
Yes, I guess my question is how a Madhyamaka would decide which descriptions of relative truth are better (more useful?), and whether this is touched on in Madhyamaka reasoning.

Astus wrote:
Conventional phenomena, the relative truth, is what is dependently originated. So what can be considered conventionally valid are what has function in terms of causal relations. For instance, one cannot drink from a mirage, but can drink from a lake. Similarly, a permanent consciousness cannot function as consciousness, only one that is dependently originated.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 5:51 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Matylda said:
Generally zen teachers, whether in the East or the West carry extremely heavy burden of responsibility, and if they take things lightly or without self criticism then only they will be resposnsible for this that something was missing in heir teachings and training.

Astus wrote:
'If sentient beings encounter someone with errant views in their quest for a good friend, they will never attain true enlightenment — that is a case of what is referred to as heterodox nature. The errors of the false teacher are not the fault of sentient beings.'
(The Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, ch 5, BDK ed, p 77)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 4:42 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
This is valid only if one supposes that the shravaka canons are the standard by one judges what constitutes buddhavacana.

Astus wrote:
Not necessarily. For instance, if one accepts a Vaipulya Pitaka and a Dharani Pitaka as parts of the Buddha's words, then they serve as a basis of measuring anything questionable.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 4:03 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
Accepted by who?  That is the problem.
Tantra (for example) are accepted as Buddhavacana by Vajrayani, but rejected by Sravakayani as "not in harmony" with THEIR accepted teachings.

Astus wrote:
There is already a basic set of teachings accepted by both sides. Furthermore, all Buddhists aim for the same in taming and overcoming habituated emotional reactions and cultivating skilful qualities like mindfulness, compassion, and wisdom.

Grigoris said:
And that is where the problems begin:  Sectarian notions of orthodoxy.

Astus wrote:
There can be such an attitude if one fails to keep in check one of the basic defilements: conceit. Otherwise, if one cares to look deeper into the various methods and teachings of Buddhism, there is a big overlap among them.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
Accepted by who, or more to the point:  by which authority/orthodoxy?

Astus wrote:
By both parties questioning the authenticity of a teaching.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
Anybody can make up "an utterance" and credit it to the/a Buddha.

Astus wrote:
So how can you tell if it's valid or not? Whether it is in harmony with the accepted teachings, as noted above, but also see: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.053.than.html, https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.079.than.html.

PS. https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
And who gets to decide what is authentic Dharma?  Historians?

Astus wrote:
"Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.'"
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
The authenticity of a teaching is decided on the basis of its content, not its supposed provenance, determined by some historiographical criteria, which is at best arbitrary and a product of the perceptions of common people.

Astus wrote:
How do you tell if the content is the Buddha's teaching or not? You compare it with other teachings that are accepted as his. So what defines the basic teaching that the others are compared to?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
How is this exercise in conjecture about the date of these texts useful to a mahayani or a Vajrayani? This is only of interest to non-practitioners.

Astus wrote:
Aren't practitioners invested in the matter of studying authentic Dharma? The authenticity of a teaching is commonly decided based on its provenance, and only secondarily by its content. In fact, it cannot be measured by content unless one has already identified some teachings as valid, and that could have happened only by its origin. Still, this is not saying that origin is the ultimate measure, only that it is a regularly used one, because it is often the easiest to go by, at least superficially. So, although ideally historical matters are irrelevant, but just as gossiping and similar human/person/self-centred thinking is normal behaviour, approaching the question of validity happens within a historical framework, otherwise there would be no need to mention whether something was or wasn't taught by the Buddha (or some other accepted source).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
It really doesn’t prove anything.

Astus wrote:
When sravakas are depicted as people holding views that are found in texts clearly later than the agamas, then on what basis is it reasonable to assume that such a work is earlier than those that contain the views mentioned?

Would you take, for instance, that such stanzas like these were uttered as true prophecies?

'From the Mahāsāṃghika school
Will seven schools separate,
And from the Sthaviravāda eleven.
These are the twenty schools.
These eighteen and the original two
All derive from the Mahayana.
Neither correct nor incorrect,
I say that these will arise in the future'
(The Sutra of Mañjuśrī’s Questions, BDK ed, p 99)

Or that there was talk of Vaibhasikas before the existence of the Mahavibhasa?

'Then instruct upon the Vaibhasya doctrine and after that the Sutranta doctrine. Then instruct upon the Yogacara doctrine followed by the Madhyamaka doctrine. After teaching all the practices of mantra, then commence with the instruction on the Hevajra practice.'
(The Concealed Essence of the Hevajra Tantra, p 273)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 6:25 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Bristollad said:
how do you choose the features that identify an "early" text.  Material arranged in such a way as to be easy to recite and memorise does not make it an early text, it only makes it material arranged to be easy to recite and memorise.

Astus wrote:
That is not the only criteria, however, it is accepted by all that the teachings were recorded in writing only later, so it is one of the signals, but, again, not the only one.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 4:23 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
This assumes that (all) the nikayas/agamas are the earliest Dharma texts.
Is there any historical evidence for this?

Astus wrote:
There is a summary regarding the Early Buddhist Texts on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_texts. For a more extensive summary with references you can read https://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/authenticity.pdf. And if you have some extra time, you can look at this essay, to give some thought to style: http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Articles/The%20Oral%20Composition%20and%20Transmission%20of%20Early%20Buddhist%20Texts_Allon_Spalding%20Symposium_1989-94.pdf.

Once what EBT are like is settled, then we can see how even works like the Jatakas are considered later. Then one can take a look at how various concepts changed and developed, as it's done for instance by Guang Xing in https://books.google.co.in/books?id=DTWZLMGFFgkC. But there are several other possible ideas that are taken for granted in Mahayana but appeared first in abhidharma or commentarial works, for instance the concept of two truths, or that there is an assurance of attainment of buddhahood at some point during a bodhisattva's career.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
What I mean is that a person can know Buddha mind well that they don’t need to utilize books in order to guide people to it.

Astus wrote:
That is not what relying on the scriptures means. It means that the source of one's knowledge originates from them. If Dharma transmission in Zen does not mean that the mind of Kashyapa matched the mind of the Buddha, i.e. that Kashyapa was of equal awakening to Shakyamuni, then it is a partial realisation that is passed on, it is incomplete, therefore not enough to attain buddhahood. And then in order to fulfil the goal of Mahayana, one necessarily needs to learn the rest of the teachings from the only other source available: the scriptures. Those Zen teachers who favoured the teaching of "sudden enlightenment, gradual practice" taught the harmony of Zen and doctrine, mainly Huayan. Here's what Yanshou wrote:

'QUESTION If you want to clarify the implicit truth of Buddhism [zong], you need only promote the message of the patriarchs. What use is there in combining it with citations from the oral teachings of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas, taking these as a guide? The reason why members of Chan lineages [zongmen] claim “By availing oneself of the eyes of a snake, one will not distinguish things for oneself” is that one only becomes a sage of words and letters [by following the scriptures], but does not enter the ranks of the patriarchs. 
ANSWER The above claim is not intended to prohibit reading the scriptures. I worry that people will not know well the words of the Buddha. People develop understanding through texts. When people forget about the Buddha’s message, one safeguards the minds of beginners on the basis of [texts]. Whoever understands the teaching through the corpus of Buddhist writings will not create a mind and realm of objects in opposition to each other, but will realize the mind of the Buddha directly. What error is there in this?'
(Yongming Yanshou's Conception of Chan in the Zongjing lu: a special transmission within the sciptures by Albert Welter, p 248-249)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
Because they understand it well enough without having to continue reading books about it

Astus wrote:
Do you mean that everything there is to know to attain buddhahood is found in buddha-mind, and a Zen teacher knows buddha-mind "well enough" to no longer need to study the Buddha's teachings?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
I don't agree. If one understands what "Buddha mind" is well enough, one would not need to rely on scriptures, as not needing to rely on scriptures is what "well enough" would mean to begin with.

Astus wrote:
The sutras cover the whole path up to buddhahood. A bodhisattva is someone who is dedicated to master all teachings, and attain omniscience, but has not yet done so. Without omniscience why wouldn't one need to rely on the buddhas' teachings?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Dan74 said:
In Zen it's whether one truly received the transmission.

Astus wrote:
But what is the nature of transmission? Usually it is understood as a certification of the attainment of a disciple. It does not mean the whole process of receiving teachings.

Dan74 said:
It sounds to me that you are putting in doubt the entire teacher-to-disciple transmission.

Astus wrote:
What is called Dharma transmission is not teaching someone how to meditation or how to follow the precepts, but the acknowledgement that one has attained the same level of awakening as the one who gives the transmission (see definitions give https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542121#p542121 ).

Dan74 said:
Can it happen outside the teacher to disciple relationship?

Astus wrote:
In various ways. If we take the aspect of historical lineage, then the answer is remote succession (yaosi 遙嗣), where one person claims inheritance from someone who is already dead. A modern example for that is how Xuyun transmitted the lineages of the three lost schools of Chan and thus Xuanhua became the ninth ancestor of the Guiyang line. If we take the awakening aspect, then anyone ever awakened could be said to have received the mind seal of the buddhas.

Dan74 said:
wasn't Chinul like that? And Huineng as well, the first breakthrough?

Astus wrote:
If what you refer to is whether someone can awaken without extended training under a single teacher, then yes, there are many examples from that starting with the agamas/nikayas where a monk asked for a brief instruction from the Buddha, then went away, meditated, and attained liberation. Jinul is an example of a super influential teacher within Zen who is not a lineage member. Hanshan Deqing is another such person. Two recent reformers, Hakuin in Japan and Gyeongheo in Korea, are also like that, as they have never received certification by anyone, but they are currently the sole sources of all Rinzai and Imje lineages in their respective countries. However, those latter two were quickly put in a lineage by their disciples.

Dan74 said:
If you are out to say that the entire teacher-student relationship is hyped up, well, come out and say so.

Astus wrote:
Dharma transmission generally means certification. It does not mean the whole process of learning. I do not say that studying under a teacher is unimportant, nor is that the topic.

Dan74 said:
Perhaps Secular Buddhism is more your thing.

Astus wrote:
Unlikely.

Dan74 said:
For my part I've really appreciated teachers' inputs and will continue to seek it when appropriate.

Astus wrote:
And so have I.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
And sudden awakening to buddha-mind is something different from actually becoming a 100% perfect Buddha.

Astus wrote:
There is such an interpretation by those who talk of "sudden awakening, gradual practice".

seeker242 said:
None of the quotes you quoted above actually say that a very learned person cannot relay the Buddha's teaching in a satisfactory manner.

Astus wrote:
That would be a teaching according to the usual manner, relying on the scriptures, following a gradual path. That is what Zen teachers wanted to distinguish themselves from.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Dan74 said:
If one completes a doctorate, then the supervisor is a significant factor. In maths when one talks about young researchers, one hears a lot of things like 'he was a student of....". So there is a lineage

Astus wrote:
There are a number of crucial differences between saying that one has studied under this and that teacher, and that there is a unique lineage of special transmission independent of scriptures. Naturally, every Buddhist is a descendent of the Buddha in a way. It is still the norm that monastics in China and Vietnam receive Shi/Thích 釋 (i.e. Shakya) as their family name. But in Zen only select people are called descendants, and it was meant to distinguish that person from all the other Buddhists (until practically everyone got to be a Chan descendant, like in China).
So it's rather like as if among all the maths PhD's some started to claim a unique expertise in mathematics because they studied under someone who studied from a disciple of an allegedly super talented, but generally unknown and already deceased professor, and because of that they now teach maths independent of numbers and logic, therefore it is not something one could learn anywhere else. And if you think this is an exaggeration, look at what Sheng-yen had to say about the matter (Hoofprint of the Ox by Sheng-yen, p 112):
''Where the doctrinal schools (jiao) locate authoritative tradition in the transmission of the Buddhist scriptures, the Chan school looks to a "mind-to-mind" transmission of the living vision of enlightenment itself. Known variously as the "transmission of the lamp or flame" or the "transmission of the treasury of the true eye of the Dharma," Chan claims to be heir to a generation-to-generation transmission of the Buddha's enlightened mind that runs parallel to his spoken word-Dharma.'

Dan74 said:
The point is that Zen training is predicated on a personal relationship.

Astus wrote:
As you noted, even mathematics and arts are so, therefore it is nothing new or unique about Zen, especially if you keep in mind that Zen existed primarily within a monastic environment. However, whether one actually receives a doctorate is not the decision of one person, and it is not actually received from a single individual but an institution. Furthermore, the validity of one's calculations does not depend on whether one is a student of a specific teacher.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 7:29 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm said:
Mahayana arose at the same time as Hinayana.

Astus wrote:
That is a bit ambiguous. For instance, the term hinayana is used by mahayana in order to distinguish itself, and since these terms depend on each other, like low and high, they cannot exist separately.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 7:18 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Dan74 said:
Texts also bemoan the scarcity of realised teachers, at times. And lineage is surely an indication at least, if not a guarantee. Do you have a better system in mind?

Astus wrote:
The lineage system is not a commonly used way in education, not even in Buddhism. Just consider how both mundane (engineers, scientists, scholars, craftsmen, etc.) and religious (theologians, priests, monks, cantors, etc.) experts are trained within institutional environments, and what quality assurance (supervision) means in various professions.

Dan74 said:
I have not yet met a Zen teacher who claimed to be fully enlightened, free of all obscurations. I think the claim that a teacher needs to be fully enlightened in order to transmit is false.

Astus wrote:
Do you have a specific view regarding the traditional lineage history that goes back to Shakyamuni? Is it not a transmission where the mind of the student and the mind of the teacher agree (see a definition here: https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/glossary/individual.html?key=seal_of_the_buddha_mind )?

Dan74 said:
Enlightened or not enlightened? Is that the only dichotomy in your mind?

Astus wrote:
The question of the topic is about whether Zen teachers are awakened. According to the usual definition of what makes a Zen teacher ( https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/glossary/individual.html?key=dharma_transmission ), and what transmission refers to ( https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/glossary/individual.html?key=dharma_lamp ), they necessarily are. Do you know of a different criteria?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 5:33 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Dan74 said:
I think there are texts and there is reality on the ground.

Astus wrote:
Texts are not apart from the reality on the ground, but one aspect of it. Such texts, teachings, views, etc. influence and define what and how people think of Zen and Zen teachers, and that in turn conditions expectations and behaviours. For instance, right when looking up from whom to learn Zen, one of the first things one is advised to check are lineage credentials, so on almost every website and every book of a Zen teacher/community has a section dedicated to lineage as proof of authenticity. There is no special consideration given to the specific views of the teacher, nor to what ordination was received, or any other aspects.

Dan74 said:
The reality on the ground is that one has to look long and hard to find a fully-awakened master in any school. And whether Zen, Vajrayana or any other lineage, there are many sincere and dedicated teachers who are able to assist the students with their practice to some extent.

Astus wrote:
However, unlike in Zen, teachers elsewhere are not required or presumed to be awakened (except tulkus). For a Zen teacher to say that s/he is an ordinary being who simply passes on whatever s/he learnt from others, that goes against the very definition of transmitting the mind and not the scriptures.

Dan74 said:
One thing is clear to me though, we can wring our hands about the absence of enlightened 0teachers, degeneration of the Dharma, etc, or we can practice and realise that that is indeed the best and only way to address these concerns.

Astus wrote:
Does that practice require an enlightened teacher or not? If it does, then it is a problem not to find such a teacher.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 4:18 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
Yes there is such a claim. If the original claim is "that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself" that is no different than saying "9th bhumi still just isn't good enough" since 9th bhumi, is by definition, not the same as Buddha himself.

Astus wrote:
If the transmission were of something less than the buddha-mind, then it'd be a gradual path, something that Zen teachers distanced themselves from right at the start, and only kept strengthening that position over the centuries.

Baizhang Huaihai explained it this way:

'Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching. This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.'
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 31)

'Only a Buddha alone is a great teacher, because there is no second person; the rest are all called outsiders, also called demons talking.'
(p 37)

'From the first to the tenth stage of bodhisattvahood they are still disciples - right now as long as they have any seeking mind at all, they’re all called immoral monks, nominal saints; they’re all called jackals. Clearly they can’t digest the offerings of others.'
(p 57)

'Even people in the tenth stage of bodhisattvahood cannot get rid of this completely, and flow into the river of birth and death.'
(p 58)

'The first, second, third, and fourth stages have the affliction of clear understanding; the fifth, sixth, and seventh stages have the affliction of various kinds of knowledge, the eighth, ninth, and tenth stages have the afflictions of bodhisattvas simultaneously illumining both realities, on up to the affliction of cultivating the fruit of Buddhahood and its innumerable practices - you only care for knowledge and understanding of meanings and expressions, and don’t realize that instead these are binding afflictions.'
(p 68)

And Huangbo:

'Even if you attain the three [stages of] sagehood and the four fruits [of the Hinayana] and complete the ten stages [of the bodhisattva], you will still remain within [the domain of] ordinary and sagely.'
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 38)

Linji went even further:

'Followers of the Way, if you take my viewpoint you’ll cut off the heads of the saṃbhogakāya and nirmāṇakāya buddhas; a bodhisattva who has attained the completed mind of the tenth stage will be like a mere hireling; a bodhisattva of equivalent enlightenment or a bodhisattva of marvelous enlightenment will be like pilloried prisoners; an arhat and a pratyekabuddha will be like privy fi lth; bodhi and nirvana will be like hitching posts for asses. Why is this so? Followers of the Way, it is only because you haven’t yet realized the emptiness of the three asamkhyeya kalpas that you have such obstacles.'
(Record of Linji, p 10, tr Sasaki)

'Followers of the Way, don’t take the Buddha to be the ultimate. As I see it, he is just like a privy hole. Both bodhisattvahood and arhatship are cangues and chains that bind one. Th is is why Mañjuśrī tried to kill Gautama with his sword, and why Aṅgulimāla attempted to slay Śākyamuni with his dagger.'
(p 31)

But that's all Hongzhou school interpretation. For something closer to the gradual perspective there are the teachings of Zongmi, Yanshou, and Jinul, although they still insist on first gaining sudden awakening to buddha-mind.

seeker242 said:
There is nothing there that dictates that 8th/9th bhumi, etc, etc. would not have that necessary knowledge to do all of the above.

Astus wrote:
As you can see above, there actually is a view that even a bodhisattva on the highest stage is not good enough.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
to claim that a person who has reached the 8th or 9th Bhumi, or the equivalent or whatever other scale that is used, to claim that that person would not be worthy of being called a zen master, or to claim that this would still somehow still be unsatisfactory, I just don't see how that is reasonable.

Astus wrote:
There is no such claim. The claim is that Zen transmits the very mind of the Buddha, that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself. If the claim was something other, that for instance they transmitted the realisation of a bodhisattva, or an arhat, or something else, then it wouldn't be the transmission of the buddha-mind. This is practically in order to be able to say that it can stand apart from the very teachings of the Buddha that one can find in the sutras, that a member of the lineage can be on an equal level as a source of truth as the sutras.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
A satisfactory level awakening.

Astus wrote:
What is that level?

seeker242 said:
I don't see anything in any of the above that dictates that only 100% full, complete, perfection is the only thing that is satisfactory.

Astus wrote:
Then let me highlight some passages and words from the above quotes.
'the Buddha recognized that one of his followers had attained the same level of understanding as he had himself'
'acknowledgement by a master that a disciple has attained an experience of enlightenment equal to his or her own '
'Because these lineages are presumed to trace back to BODHIDHARMA, the founder of the Chan school, and ultimately to the person of the Buddha himself, the person who receives such certification is considered to be qualified to speak for the current generation of Chan adepts on behalf of the Chan patriarchs, masters, and even the Buddha '
'"mind-to-mind" transmission of the living vision of enlightenment itself '
'a generation-to-generation transmission of the Buddha's enlightened mind '
'a Chan master is someone who has awakened to the Buddha Mind '
'the historical transmission preserves intact the "Mind Dharma" of Buddha Sakyamuni'
Dogen identifies what is transmitted as "the true Dharma eye treasury of the wondrous mind of nirvana", just as it is in the so called Flower Sermon, and that expression itself is meant as not just the essence of the Dharma, but also what encompasses all the teachings. Being enlightened to that means knowing and embodying the entirety of the Dharma, exactly like the Buddha. As the transmission itself means a confirmation that the successor is on equal stance with the transmitter, since it is the Buddha himself who initiated it, all successors are on the same level as the Buddha. How could it be anything less than that? Do you assume that being enlightened to, or possessing/being the mind of the Buddha, is something less than buddhahood, that there is something more to attain?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
It could be that the initial theory proposed above is just a wrong idea to begin with and zen transmission does not actually mean "this person is now a fully completed Buddha"

Astus wrote:
What do you propose instead?
If there is no transmission, no lineage, then there is no Zen school to talk of, as it is one of, if not the only core element of it.

'The first ancestor, Bodhidharma, came from the west, and did not engage in various activities or give lectures on sutras or commentaries, but simply faced the wall in zazen for nine years at Shaolin. Sitting is exactly the true Dharma eye treasury of the wondrous mind of nirvana. Generation after generation give face-to-face transmission, intimately receiving the secret seal, actually transmitting the bones and marrow between teachers and disciples. Just this is the single genuine matter; other things are not like this.'
(Eihei Koroku, IV.304, p 283; cf https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms17.pdf )

'From Śākyamuni Buddha to Sōkei there are thirty-four patriarchs. Each of the transmissions between these Buddhist patriarchs is like Kāśyapa3 meeting the Tathāgata and like the Tathāgata getting Kāśyapa. Just as Śākyamuni Buddha learns in practice under Kāśyapa Buddha, each teacher and disciple exists in the present. Therefore, the right Dharma-eye treasury has been personally transmitted from rightful successor to rightful successor, and the true life of the Buddha-Dharma is nothing other than this authentic transmission.'
(Butsudo, in Shobogenzo, BDK ed, vol 3, p 88)

'When viewed in terms of the clerical elite, in other words, Zen clearly constitutes the most successful form of Buddhism in East Asia. Why has it been so successful? In 1987, John Jorgensen suggested one answer. It is basically the same explanation that Dogen gave. To wit: "The authentic life of the Buddha dharma exists only in this authentic transmission." In other words, Zen is the predominant form of Buddhism because of dharma transmission.'
(Dharma Transmission in Theory and Practice by William M. Bodiford, in Zen Ritual: Studies of Zen Buddhist Theory in Practice, p 264)

'Where the doctrinal schools (jiao) locate authoritative tradition in the transmission of the Buddhist scriptures, the Chan school looks to a "mind-to-mind" transmission of the living vision of enlightenment itself. Known variously as the "transmission of the lamp or flame" or the "transmission of the treasury of the true eye of the Dharma," Chan claims to be heir to a generation-to-generation transmission of the Buddha's enlightened mind that runs parallel to his spoken word-Dharma.
...
Institutionally speaking, a Chan master is someone who has awakened to the Buddha Mind through Chan training and whose enlightenment has been tested and sanctioned (C. yinke; J. inka) by an existing Chan master. Using the flame and lamp analogy, one could say that transmission of Chan Dharma requires that three things be simultaneously present: the enlightened insight of a previously sanctioned Chan master, the enlightened insight of the disciple, and the living reality of the Buddhadharma or Buddha Mind in which both are grounded. If any one of these is missing, enlightenment and transmission cannot be considered genuine, at least by Chan standards. By the same token, the formal granting of sanction is especially key to this, since the very basis of Chan practice and the integrity of Chan as an institution hinges on the idea that the historical transmission preserves intact the "Mind Dharma" of Buddha Sakyamuni. It is this certified wisdom that Chan practitioners seek to "ignite" and verify in their own minds; and, as the embodiment of that light, it is to the Chan master that he or she looks for guidance.'
(Hoofprint of the Ox by Sheng-yen, p 112, 113)

Some more on the nature of dharma transmission according to various sources:

'Dharma Transmission is what happens when your sight clears enough that you can see what your teacher and the Buddha have already seen: things as they are.'
(Hardcore Zen, p 73)

'Back when Gautama Buddha was alive there was an incident in wich he stepped up to give a talk. As was customary in India, flowers had been strewn at his feet before he began to teach. Instead of speaking, Gautama just picked up one of those flowers and held it silently aloft - and a guy named Mahakashyapa, one of his longtime students, smiled. Then the Buddha winked at him, called it a day's teaching, and walked away.
This little scene is viewed by Zen Buddhists as the moment when the Buddha recognized that one of his followers had attained the same level of understanding as he had himself. The Buddha's silent wink was taken to be the start of the formal acknowledgement known today as Dharma Transmission.'
(Hardcore Zen, p 137)

'Dharma transmission is actually the acknowledgement by a master that a disciple has attained an experience of enlightenment equal to his or her own.'
(The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Zen Buddhism, p 71)

yinke. ( J. inka; K. in’ga 印可). In Chinese, lit. “seal of/in approval,” “certification” and often seen in Western sources in its Japanese pronunciation inka; a seal of approval, certification, or transmission, which is given by masters in the various CHAN traditions across East Asia to practitioners who, in their estimation, have attained a satisfactory level of awakening or maturity of understanding to serve as public exponents of their lineage. Because these lineages are presumed to trace back to BODHIDHARMA, the founder of the Chan school, and ultimately to the person of the Buddha himself, the person who receives such certification is considered to be qualified to speak for the current generation of Chan adepts on behalf of the Chan patriarchs, masters, and even the Buddha, to accept and train students, and to give them certification in turn once their training is complete.
(The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism, p 1029)

'In an attempt to distinguish itself from the other Buddhist traditions that sought the teachings of the Buddha in sūtras and commentaries, the burgeoning Chan tradition of the eighth and ninth centuries emphasized the nonverbal transmission of the Buddha’s teachings. The notion of mind-to-mind transmission has thus served as an important trope in the self-fashioning of the Chan tradition.'
(on 'yixin chuanxin' in The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism, p 1032)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Aryjna said:
Is there concrete evidence that conclusively proves this succession?

Astus wrote:
The agamas/nikayas do not contain the various abhidharma ideas. In the abhidharmas there is a distinction between sutra and abhidharma teachings. Mahayana sutras talk of dharmas as the ultimate constituents of reality (and how they are empty), and that is a theory not explicit even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka itself but only in the commentaries.
Here is an essay on the matter: https://serval.unil.ch/resource/serval:BIB_ADB8A4E3744C.P001/REF.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Are all phenomena equally empty in Madhyamaka?
Content:
akuppa said:
Thanks, where can I read about this in Madhyamaka sources?

Astus wrote:
In the various discussions of the two truths.

'The conventional has two aspects: one that is mistaken and one that is correct. The former is twofold: the moon [reflected on] water and the conceptions of bad doctrines.
Something that is pleasing only as long as it is not examined, which arises and ceases to exist'
(Entry into the Two Realities by Atisa, in Jewels of the Middle Way, p 119)

There's also a nice collection of essays: https://books.google.hu/books?id=4-MdDAAAQBAJ


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
"everything that had to be mastered" in order to do what though? Teach beings how to practice appropriately? Point them in the right direction, etc, etc? Which is what a teacher's job is. Does one really need to have attained anuttara samyak sambodhi in order to do that teacher job properly?

Astus wrote:
In theory Zen transmits the buddha-mind, so any member of the transmission lineage must have the mind of a buddha, in other words, be a buddha. In practice, it is whatever a lineage member seems fit. So either the very meaning of the lineage is incorrect, or the practice, or both, or one might believe that both are actually correct and valid. In order to accept both as valid the common choice has been to say that one specific line is true (or truer), but the others are corrupt, considering the regular criticism of everyone else (e.g. northerners vs southerners, heze chan vs hongzhou chan, kanhua chan vs mozhao chan).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Aryjna said:
As has been discussed several times, the Pali sources and the schools associated with them, have not been established to be earlier than Mahayana schools and non-Pali sources. If anything, the oldest existing texts apparently are Gandharan Mahayana texts.

Astus wrote:
Mahayana relies on for instance ideas present in abhidharmika texts, and the abhidharmas necessarily succeed the agamas/nikayas. That is regardless of what specific text has the oldest manuscript.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Are all phenomena equally empty in Madhyamaka?
Content:
akuppa said:
My problem is that it seems from a Madhyamaka point of view belief that a Self exists is equally wrong as belief that the consciousness aggregate arises and ceases based on causes and conditions (the dhamma theory).

Astus wrote:
There is a difference made between correct and incorrect conventional truth, so an impermanent consciousness is correct convention, while a permanent self is an incorrect convention.

akuppa said:
So the early Buddhist schools are just as misguided as non-Buddhists?

Astus wrote:
Not all abhidharma systems are the same. What you find criticised by Madhyamaka are mainly Sarvastivadin interpretations, or at least what they viewed as the Sarvastivadin doctrine.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 5:15 PM
Title: Re: Chakrasamvara Sadhana - Utter Illumination of the Innermost Essence
Content:
BobbyBe said:
Hi everyone, this is my first post.  I'm looking for a Chakrasamvara Sadhana called "Utter Illumination of the Innermost Essence"

Astus wrote:
It is available online: https://garchen.net/library-sadhanas-and-sacred-texts/


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Malcolm said:
So according to the definition above, this zero attachment thinking is not true emptiness, since it is thinking.

Astus wrote:
I think Seung Sahn followed a different type of terminology, where emptiness has a more limited or extreme meaning, like what you can find in Tiantai.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Nicholas2727 said:
Is this a practice that is used alongside other meditation techniques or do most chan/zen centers focus entirely on a huatuo practice?

Astus wrote:
It can be with or without other practices. It depends on the individual needs and the community.

Here are some introductory materials:
http://www.chancenter.org/chanctr/ddp/talks/beginners-m.html by Hanshan Deqing
https://www.emptycloud.net/articles-2/chan-meditation-%E7%A6%85/prerequisites-of-the-chan-training/ by Xuyun

More extensive works:
http://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/EN375.pdf by Guo Ru
http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020

Nicholas2727 said:
Not saying one is right or one is wrong, but would chan/zen schools not recommend this style of practice since it notes the experiences or does noting fit into the practice since it does not mean one is considering them the observer?

Astus wrote:
If by noting you mean verbal labelling, then not really. However, Chan is not a very fixed method or doctrine, and a lot depends on the individual and the teacher.

Nicholas2727 said:
Do you have any suggestions for readings that go over the different versions of meditation?

Astus wrote:
I have not yet seen such a comprehensive work, especially not focused on meditation only. At the same time, you should be aware that there are teachings in Mahayana as well about samatha and vipasyana. Here are some sources you might enjoy:

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225580.html by Nagarjuna
https://ia800808.us.archive.org/15/items/FourApplMindfulnessMahayana/SgiksnasamuccayaOn4ApplicationsUpdatedJuly2017.pdf by Śāntideva
http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/ebm_book_page.htm by Shramana Zhiyi
http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/sgs_book_page.htm by Shramana Zhiyi
http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/n6p_book_page.htm
https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/sutra-concentration-sitting-meditation


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
PeterC said:
Do you think that 印可 is a recognition that something has been transmitted; or it is simply a recognition of achievement, so in theory the student could have realized it unaided and the teacher just confirms that the student has recognized it?

Astus wrote:
Only the one who drinks it can tell whether it's cold or warm, isn't that so? That doesn't mean it was unaided or it was aided, as circumstances and events vary, as it can be seen from the many accounts of awakening throughout the history of Zen.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Matylda said:
it is the case all over East Asia. over 90% of Chinese monks received dharma transmission. It became a custom, withoutreal meaning. The same is in soto zen in Japan, it is still different in rinzai, but situtation is not good, since it is possible to receive dharma transmission without genuine insight in rinzai...

Astus wrote:
And that is how it is slightly different in the West, because most have the view that such a transmission should be meaningful, that it should be for at least some level of insight, or at least proficiency.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Yes, Astus rejects utterly the notion of transmission, he always has. He thinks Dharma can be learned from books.

Astus wrote:
Dharma transmission in Zen is not about one person teaching another, but one person authorising another after that other has already mastered everything that had to be mastered.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
PeterC said:
if you reject the lineage view of a continuous transmission, you’ve also discarded the premise that transmission implies qualification as a teacher, surely?

Astus wrote:
Don't miss the problem https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=541665#p541665:  if nothing is transmitted, what makes a Zen teacher, since the only criteria is exactly transmission?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
PeterC said:
If you want to look for precedent in China, you should read the 高僧傳 and 續高僧傳, which collectively have biographies of hundreds of monks from the early Liang to The Zhen Guan emperor in the Tang.  They’re very important works for giving us an idea of monastic practices in the early Tang golden age of Chan/Zen.  In those days Dharma transmission was definitely not a formality, and the training that monks went through was not lightweight.

Astus wrote:
Except that those are not Chan works, nor do they talk of any lineage, unlike for instance the Chuan fabao ji 傳法寶紀, the Lengqia shizi ji 楞伽師資記. and the Lidai fabao ji 歷代法寶記. Furthermore, the question was regarding practice post-transmission, something that wouldn't fit the role of Dharma-transmission that is meant to enable one to serve as an abbot, and (theoretically) signified awakening. But if you say that there is evidence for such practice, then please present it.

PeterC said:
the quotation you cite is about the relationship between that school and other schools.

Astus wrote:
The quotation serves to show that the very meaning of Dharma transmission has not really changed in China since Song times down to the 20th century. In other words, there has never been such a thing as a golden age, nor has things somehow deteriorated later in this regard.

PeterC said:
I don’t think that’s quite sufficient to dodge my question.

Astus wrote:
It wasn't meant to dodge it, but rather show that I see no basis to accept such a transmission throughout the centuries.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
PeterC said:
You don’t consider centuries of precedent to be dispositive?

Astus wrote:
I don't see where such precedents exist in the first place. Here are some interesting examples from the first half of the 20th century, as it is described in The Practice of Chinese Buddhism 1900–1950 by Holmes Welch:

'Transmission of the dharma as a seal of office was the practice at most Chinese monasteries, unless the dharma and the abbotship were connected in other ways'
(p 158)

Of the Kiangsu System

'Whereas elsewhere one master transmitted to one disciple at a time, in Kiangsu several masters transmitted collectively to several disciples. All the masters served successively as abbot at a certain monastery and then all the disciples would serve as abbot there too. What had been transmitted was thought of as the dharma of that monastery. Receiving it gave a right and also an obligation to serve as abbot.'
(p 158)

'In actuality this kind of "dharma transmission" has become a formality in the Ch'an sect. It is a million miles away from the dharma transmission by the direct imprint of mind on mind. This kind of dharma transmission is simply a traditional formality of genealogical succession.'
(p 165)

Of the System in Kuei-yuan Ssu

'The Kuei-yuan Ssu in Hanyang, Hupeh, was rare among Chinese monasteries in that it dispensed altogether with consultation and left the choice of abbot directly and entirely to the bodhisattva Wei-t'o. It was unique (so far as I know) in that every monk ordained there was offered its dharma. An ordination was held each winter and immediately afterwards many of the hundreds of ordainees became dharma disciples, each receiving a dharma scroll and having his name entered in a dharma register (chieh-fa pu). When an abbot's three year term was up, all the names in this register would be copied onto slips and placed in a tube before Wei-t'o's image. The abbot himself did the drawing. The first name to be drawn three times in a row became his successor. If this individual had gone elsewhere (as he usually had), he would be traced and brought back. Even if he were young or incompetent, he still served.'
(p 169)

We might note that at the end of the same chapter there is mention of reformers who rejected such practices, and a longer quote of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanxu 's criticism of the practice of transmitting the Dharma with the abbotship.

But if it is assumed or hoped for that such are the corruptions of late Chinese Buddhism, here are T. Griffith Foulk's words:

'The controversies that simmered in the Sung over the status of the Ch'an lineage as a “separate transmission,”…were more about securing prestige, patronage, and special privileges within the Buddhist order than about practical matters of monkish training or spiritual cultivation. The “separate transmission” slogan was used successfully by proponents of Ch'an to argue that members of their lineage, having inherited the enlightenment of the Buddha in a direct line of “mind-to-mind transmission,” were the monks most qualified for positions of leadership within the existing Buddhist monastic institution.'
("Sung Controversies Concerning the 'Separate Transmission' of Ch'an" in Buddhism in the Sung, p 221)

PeterC said:
So you chose the example of Suzuki and Baker to show that you fully accept?

Astus wrote:
'Statements of lineage identity and “history” were polemical tools of self-assertion, not critical evaluations of chronological fact according to some modern concept of historical accuracy. To the extent that any lineage assertion is significant, it is also a misrepresentation; lineage assertions that can be shown to be historically accurate are also inevitably inconsequential as statements of religious identity.'
(McRae's Second Rule of Zen Studies, in Seeing Through Zen by John R. McRae, p xix)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 7:26 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
PeterC said:
That is exactly the matter we're discussing here, though

Astus wrote:
I do not see a fixed rule regarding what to happen after. It also questions the meaning of transmission. From the editor's note in Getting the Buddha Mind (p 30):

"'Generation' refers to the transmission of the Dharma within a lineage from a master to a disciple. This transmission thereby ensures the continuity not only of the Dharma itself, but also the teaching and the practice of the lineage. Furthermore, it confers upon the recipient a recognition by the master that the disciple is now qualified to transmit the Dharma, i.e., has become a master."

PeterC said:
He had more than one teacher. I heard this comment about waiting from him directly.

Astus wrote:
Dongchu was the first to give him transmission, then two years later, in 1978, was also given by Lingyuan. Or do you know of someone else?

PeterC said:
if we accept the doctrine of the lineage, there can be no difference.

Astus wrote:
What other options are there apart from accepting and not accepting?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 6:26 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
PeterC said:
Receipt of transmission doesn't mean you should be teaching.

Astus wrote:
As for what happens after, that is another matter.

PeterC said:
For example - the Taiwanese monk, Sheng Yan, didn't teach for many years after receiving transmission and authorization to do so, because he didn't feel ready.

Astus wrote:
If you mean http://www.shengyen.org/eng/, founder of the Dharma Drum Lineage, it was actually the other way around. He did a retreat, he started to teach, and then received Dharma transmission.

'However  when  my  head-shaving  preceptor, Master Dongchu came to visit me in the United States in 1976 and saw me teaching Chan meditation in the Temple of Great Enlightenment in New York, he said to me, “You still have not received transmission!” He had received transmission through the Jiaoshan sect of the Caodong School. On that day he gave me transmission and ordered me to continue his Dharma lineage, but there was no ceremony.'
( https://chancenter.org/cmc/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Summer-2017.pdf )

PeterC said:
Do you feel that the people teaching Zen in Western countries have the same capacity/capability to teach as the Japanese teachers who first gave Dharma transmission in the West?

Astus wrote:
I sure couldn't tell, as you say, one would need an extensive sample to decide that, and even then the measurements used is hard to define. In theory, however, if we accept the doctrine of the lineage, there can be no difference, as those Japanese teachers appointed their own successors of their own volition and choice, like Shunryu Suzuki appointed Richard Baker.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 5:17 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
PeterC said:
You need to be trained

Astus wrote:
In order to be a Zen teacher there are no fixed training requirements, only that someone already possessing the title assigns to you the same rank. That is the basic idea of the whole lineage and Dharma transmission system.

PeterC said:
So either a lot of Western students are, absent a training of a duration or intensity that would be normal in Japan, achieving much better results and being recognized as such by qualified teachers; or the bar has gone down. I think it's for all of us to draw our own conclusions on which.

Astus wrote:
How could the bar go up or down? The very nature of the lineage transmission must guarantee that any appointed successor is of the same quality as the one who transmits it. Otherwise, what is being transmitted? And if nothing is transmitted, what makes a Zen teacher, since the only criteria is exactly transmission.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 3:49 PM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Nicholas2727 said:
the practices is to let go of concepts so that makes sense to me, although the practice of how to get there is what I am confused about.

Astus wrote:
The practice is to let go of concepts, full stop. Well, actually, that is taken in Zen as the essential practice, but not the only one. However, the very understanding of 'concepts' here can cause some serious confusions. Practically the key element is to recognise how one attaches to an idea and perpetuates it, turning a single thought into a chain of thoughts. But even that can sound (rightly) ambiguous, so think of right effort (samma vayama), how skilful and unskilful needs to be differentiated (note: this is part of the samadhi section), and think of dependent origination, how from contact/impression arises feeling, and from feeling craving, then grasping, etc. Although with this added explanation it doesn't look very Zennish, but then you can see how they point to the same mental function.
As for the various techniques used to help people to see into their own mental operations, the method of kanhua (看話 - "phrase contemplation") is the most popular everywhere, with the sole exception of Soto Zen. There are also two versions of kanhua practice, one following the older type of contemplating the huatou (話頭 - "phrase head"), and there is the practice with a koan curriculum in Rinzai Zen. So basically the Japanese Zen schools are a bit different from the others (China, Korea, Vietnam).

Nicholas2727 said:
I understand that when we see red, just see it, although can this be done simply by just following the breath?

Astus wrote:
If you watch the breath, then it's the breath that comes and goes. The attitude should be the same, not grasping, not rejecting, not identifying, not disidentifying, but being simply aware without assuming oneself to be the doer (breather), the observer (I feel breath), the owner (it is my breath), or any other version of positioning oneself somewhere (or in a "nowhere").

Nicholas2727 said:
How do either of these differ from some of the meditation styles in Theravada (Specifically following the breath, Metta, and Mahasi Sayadaw style of vipassana)?

Astus wrote:
To see that better, one always needs to be familiar with the specific methods. Even just for "following the breath" there are many versions in Theravada and Mahayana. To compare them, one needs to know them. What you can do for a start is to read a bit about the actual methods themselves first. Then you might like one or another, and try it, then you may have questions and doubts, so you will find someone (a good friend, a teacher, an experienced person) to help further. One big difficulty of comparing these methods in such broad strokes here is that there are just to many details to cover in a post. So you can also try more specific questions.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 2:47 PM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Malcolm said:
This is still just referring to a mind devoid of concepts. So, it still does not escape the criticism.

Astus wrote:
Not really the same. There are things, but there is no attachment to them. It's possible to match it with there being no longer the concept of self that puts concepts into a samsaric frame. A little more on "just as they are":

"At 360° all things are just as they are; the truth is just like  this. 'Like this'  means that there is no attachment  to anything. This point is exactly the same as the zero point: we arrive  where we  began, where we have always  been. The difference is that O° is attachment thinking,  while 360° is no-attachment thinking."
(Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, p 7)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Malcolm said:
That is not what the citation says.

Astus wrote:
Right, it's not a full story, I just thought it fitting on the issue of comparison. Here's an extension on empty mind.

'True emptiness is before thinking. Before thinking is just like this. So life is only life; death is only death. You must not be attached to names and forms. It is like a clear mirror. In a clear mirror, all is nothing; there is only the clear mirror. Red comes, the mirror is red. Yellow comes, there is yellow. A woman comes, there is a woman. A man comes, there is a man. Death comes, there is death. Life comes, there is life. But all of these do not exist. The mirror does not hold on to anything. There is only the coming and the going. This is before thinking: all things are just as they are. The name for this mind is original pure mind.'
(Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, p 90)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Malcolm said:
This is not a very good answer. This kind of idea, the cessation of thinking, just results in more samsara.

Astus wrote:
That is right, aiming for and grasping at a thoughtless state at best takes one to a heavenly birth. But that was not the intended message, at least from my side. Rather that while there are methodical differences, when it comes to not conceptualising what is experienced, there are no distinctions that can be made.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
LastLegend said:
I am confused I don’t know which is is which anymore. It seems like it’s all the same?

Astus wrote:
One evening, after a Dharma talk at the Boston Dharmadhatu, a student said to Seung Sahn Soen-sa, "At a recent seminar on Zen and Tantra,  Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche compared Zen to black and white and tantra to color. What do you think of this?"
...
Soen-sa said, ... "When you are thinking, your mind  and my mind  are  different. When you are not thinking, your mind and my mind are the same. Now tell me - when you are not thinking, is there color? Is there black and white? Not  thinking,  your mind is empty mind. Empty minds means cutting off all speech and words. Is there color then?"
(Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, p 79)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: Why is Siddhi only possible after 4th Jhana?
Content:
NateLeo said:
Now considering jhana is a temporary state, that tells me obscurations can temporarily be overcome?

Astus wrote:
There is a difference between latent habits or inclinations (anusaya) that are a condition for the emergence of hindrances (nivarana). So, as shown in the https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhi, even though a baby doesn't have the fetters like doubt and identity-view, the tendency is there. Also, one is not always overcome by craving or aversion, but when the conditions are present, one can be swept away by strong emotions.

NateLeo said:
I thought obscurations were something that had to be permanently overcome, THEN you'd see certain fruits of practice. I thought obscurations were things that were "stuck" to you until real awakening, but im guessing now thats wrong?

Astus wrote:
If by obscurations you mean the obscuration of defilements (klesavarana) and the obscuration to knowledge (jneyavarana), those are like latent tencencies (anusaya) and dispositions (vasana).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 5:33 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism Supernatural feats and abilities
Content:
nothingkungfu said:
Does it happen to someone just a 5-6 years Buddhism or junior practitioner ? Why such a things happening according to Buddhism? I just want to be a normal people and i dont require such abilities at the moment because my "good deed" is not good enough, perhaps i will use this for gambling or stock market or into devil's direction.

Astus wrote:
Do you have control over your abilities, or do they just appear without you knowing about how it works? If the former, then you should keep in mind the ten good and the ten bad forms of action, and work only with good intentions. If it's the latter, then you're going to have to learn to regulate your mental activities, otherwise they remain disturbing factors.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 4:05 PM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Nicholas2727 said:
The same style was taught to me instead one would note this experience as saying "feeling" "feeling" or "thinking" "thinking". Do I understand this correctly or am I far off?

Astus wrote:
Labelling experiences is the first stage, using simple words to help one recognise what actually happens. Eventually such labels are let go of in vipassana, and dhammas are perceived without them. That stage, where there is no longer any labelling, conceptualisation (paññatti), is where one can see things as they are, and that is where the vipassana knowledges can happen.
You can see in Mahayana that one has to get to the same non-conceptualising mindfulness where impressions are not clung to, nor suppressed, and that is the ideal attitude.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Why is Siddhi only possible after 4th Jhana?
Content:
NateLeo said:
Ah, so basically they dont manifest "automatically", you first clear the mind and "intend" for them to manifest through mind-power?

Astus wrote:
Yes, there needs to be intention and effort to develop them. Note that one also needs the four https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iddhipada (iddhipāda/ṛddhipāda).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Why is Siddhi only possible after 4th Jhana?
Content:
LastLegend said:
I think the 6th is knowing before a thought forms? Anyway personally I don’t think siddhi are Wisdom. Little emphasis should be put on it in my opinion.

Astus wrote:
The sixth higher knowledge (abhiññā/abhijñā) is the destruction of influxes/effluents (āsavakkhaya/āsravakṣaya), i.e. when defilements are completely eliminated.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 1st, 2020 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Why is Siddhi only possible after 4th Jhana?
Content:
LastLegend said:
Are those liberation?

Astus wrote:
Absorptions may be called liberation, but only in a temporary and relative sense, that the five hindrances are not present in them. Of the higher knowledges, the sixth is actual liberation, the first five are mundane powers.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 1st, 2020 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Why is Siddhi only possible after 4th Jhana?
Content:
NateLeo said:
what is it about the subtleties of the mind in 4th Jhana that allow siddhis to manifest?

Astus wrote:
Rddhis don't merely manifest, one has to make it happen, and in order to do so, the mind must have sufficient "power", i.e. undistracted and focused. It is the fourth absorption where the mind has reached the optimum level of concentration no longer moved by effort (1st dhyana) or by feelings (2nd and 3rd dhyana). As it is said (e.g https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html ), 'With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the modes of supranormal powers.'


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 1st, 2020 at 4:54 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Malcolm said:
You gave the Sanskrit and the Tibetan. There are no "characters" in either language.

Astus wrote:
It was intended as further reference to clarify what was translated as "letters" in https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=541014#p541014. The Vimalakirti Sutra has 言說文字 that consists of "spoken" (yanshou 言說) and "character" (wenzi 文字), and the latter is "literature/writing" (wen 文) plus "letter/character/word" (zi 字). This was simply translated as "letter" in the quote. Furthermore, in the quote from Kukai's work "letter" is a translation for zi 字, what Giebel renders as "sign" (in https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/shingon-texts, p 85). But clearly there is a difference here, as the Vimalakirt Sutra actually talks of speech, while Kukai really means writing.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 1st, 2020 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Words, characters, syllables & liberation
Content:
Malcolm said:
Just to add a note, a syllable is different than a "character."

Astus wrote:
It was meant as an approximation of the Chinese translation.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 3:45 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
It could, but it usually doesn't, 99.999 percent of the time.

Astus wrote:
That's a slightly more pessimistic than usual.

'Of the thousands or tens of thousands of people in this school, only three or five of them have gotten it.'
(Huangbo, in Birds in Flight Leaves No Trace, ch 44)

有禪無淨土。十人九錯路。無禪有淨土。萬修萬人去。有禪有淨土。猶如戴角虎也。
'With Chan but without Pure Land nine out of ten miss the road. Without Chan but with Pure Land ten thousand practitioners out of ten thousand pass. With Chan and with Pure Land it is like a horned tiger.'
(Yongming Yanshou quoted in Wuliangshoujing huiyi 無量壽經會譯, X1n5p70b14-16)

Malcolm said:
In any case, buddhahood cannot be realized with slogans.

Astus wrote:
But I quite like Chekawa's collection...


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Likewise, unless those buddha qualities are discovered by you in a direct perception, or pointed out to you, even if you have them, they are of no use to you.

Astus wrote:
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/D/92 is one of the main Zen slogans. It can result in buddhahood exactly because there is no need to gather anything more.

'You should simply eliminate the ratiocination of the ordinary [mind] and the [enlightened] realm of the sage—there is not any separate Buddha outside of the mind. The patriarch [Bodhidharma] came from the west to point out directly that all persons are in their entireties the Buddha. You fail to recognize this now but grasp onto the ordinary and the sagely, racing after the external and in turn being deluded as to your own mind. Therefore, I say to you: this mind is the Buddha.
To generate a single moment of ratiocination is to fall into a different realm. Since beginningless time, [this truth] has been no different from how it is today; there is no other Dharma. Therefore this is called the attainment of [the stages of ] equivalent and correct enlightenment.'
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 34-35)

And a contemporary teacher:

'if we look directly at the false thoughts, they will disperse like clouds or smoke. This is “directly pointing at the mind,” not relying on any means. If we all practiced in this manner, no one would be unwise enough to run after their thoughts, trying to destroy illusions. We only need to know that thoughts are false and not follow them. This is the essence of Bodhidharma’s pacification of mind.'
( https://tienvnguyen.net/images/file/G5gYJdC51AgQAHUb/keystobuddhism.pdf by Thich Thanh Tu, p 52)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Not really-- hence the various metaphors about paupers using rocks that hide wishfulfilling jewels as pillows, who die without recognizing they have been in possession of such a jewel the entire time.

Astus wrote:
'In the expository, causal vehicle of the paramitas, the sugatagarbha or buddha-nature is considered to be present in the minds of beings only as a seed. When this is fully developed through circumstantial conditions— in other words, the two accumulations (of merit and wisdom) — buddhahood is attained. And since the cause comes first and its result after, one speaks in this case of a causal vehicle. By contrast, the Mantrayana, the vehicle of mantra, proclaims that all beings are by nature endowed with the sugatagarbha, wherein all enlightened qualities are spontaneously present.'
(Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 2, p 86)

Unlike the above description of sutrayana, in Chan, Tiantai, and Huayan buddha-nature is understood to be already complete with the buddha qualities, as already noted in http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html:

'Next, Suchness has two aspects if predicated in words. One is that it is truly empty (sunya), for this aspect can, in the final sense, reveal what is real. The other is that it is truly nonempty (a-sunya), for its essence itself is endowed with undefiled and excellent qualities.'


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Minobu said:
ok so the emptiness is not about sunyata , it's a Dzogchen realization

Astus wrote:
Read again (highlight added):

Malcolm said:
Realizing emptiness in Dzogchen means realizing the original purity of all phenomena, in common with the perfection of wisdom sūtras, etc.

Astus wrote:
There is really just one emptiness, even if it is explained in many ways.

Malcolm said:
Dzogchen seems to be a completely different approach to Buddhahood...

Astus wrote:
Malcolm may step in of course, but let me add this as a quick reply here. While dzogchen (any others) has a unique presentation and methods, it does not essentially diverge in its understanding from what is there to be done, that is, the elimination of defilements and obscurations, the realisation of the twofold emptiness, and so on.

Malcolm said:
What I don't get is you don't really explain how karma seems to be overridden...or discharged ...

Astus wrote:
Again, while dzogchen has its own take on common Buddhist doctrines, it matches the basic teachings regarding dependent origination, how from ignorance comes suffering, and when ignorance is eliminated, there is no more samsara.

Malcolm said:
Lord Sakyamuni endured samsaric existence for like an eternity to rid His Karma...

Astus wrote:
That version describes how merit needs to be accumulated over a long period of time. Such a view is "obsolete" in light of the view of buddha-nature.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
But arguing that sūtrayāna practices such as Pure Land practice, etc., are quick paths to buddhahood is is erroneous and cannot be supported on the basis of their own fundamental texts.

Astus wrote:
One could rather argue that for the practice of buddha-recollection in order to overwrite one's habitual inclinations has to be strongly imprinted on the mind, therefore the requirement is actually not that low. But once one is there, one can personally meet buddhas and bodhisattvas, so one can learn and master whatever Dharma teaching there is without difficulty. Therefore necessarily one can attain buddhahood as quickly as possible anywhere.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 7:55 PM
Title: Re: How awakened are bodhisattva stream-entrants?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
This brings up another issue: why are only bodhisattvas of a certain bhūmi or higher mahāsattvas (and this bhūmi is not usually given as the first)?

Astus wrote:
'A Bodhisattva is called ‘a great being’ in the sense that he will cause a great mass and collection of beings to achieve the highest.' (PP8K, I.4, tr Conze) Mahasattva can simply refer to their great (maha) intention (sattva) to liberate all beings. See e.g. https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc82328.html. Also, according to the Yogacarabhumi-shastra's (Bodhisattva Path to Unsurpassed Enlightenment) commentary (quoted in note 1218) it's because bodhisattvas possess seven forms of greatness listed at I.18.24. An explanation from Haribhadra (quoted in Heart Sutra Explained, p 44):

'Bodhisattvas are those whose sattva. or intentions, are directed toward the fulfillment of their own welfare, namely, the enlightenment which is non-attachment to all phenomena. It may be argued that even Sravakas can be so. Thus, the word mahasattva is added. Those whose minds are directed towards the fulfillment of the great welfare of others are called Mahasattvas. An objection might be raised that such a Maha sattva can be found elsewhere, as in the case of a good non-Buddhist. Thus, the word bodhisattva is added.'

Caoimhghín said:
Similarly, take the Heart Sutra for example, which depicts Avalokiteśvara gaining insight into emptiness.

Astus wrote:
The sutra says Avalokitesvara was practising/contemplating prajnaparamita, not that it was his/her first insight.

Caoimhghín said:
And there is no furthering of wisdom or insight accompanied by the loosening of these fetters?

Astus wrote:
See this nice sutta about how contemplation of the impermanence of the five aggregates is practised from the beginning to even beyond liberation: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.122.than.html. And here is another to explain how one can have full knowledge without being liberated: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html. Here's a simile from the https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.068.than.html: 'It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body.'

Caoimhghín said:
the bodhisattva path is described as the bodhisattva progresses.

Astus wrote:
The bodhisattva too gains full comprehension of emptiness on the path of seeing, the first bhumi, and then cultivates it to perfection until buddhahood.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 4:51 PM
Title: Re: How awakened are bodhisattva stream-entrants?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
How does the śrāvaka stream-entrant differ in his realization from the bodhisattva stream-entrant other than the former theoretically missing the foundations of bodhicitta?

Astus wrote:
It depends on whom you ask, as there are various views about sravakas (and bodhisattvas) in different Mahayana works. What separates the four noble persons on the sravaka path is not in their attainment of insight into the four noble truths, but how much of the fetters they have removed permanently.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 4:18 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
attainment/realisation is not something objectively verifiable. Insight is something that has to be attained or realised by the aspirant. There's no really objective measure, like the replication of an experimental setup that produces a result that anyone can then see.  That's why the authentication has to be carried out intuitively by a designated lineage holder.

Astus wrote:
If there is no measure of attainment, how could it still be measured (intuitively or otherwise) by anyone? That is a contradiction.

Wayfarer said:
All such hierarchies (and their associated hierophanies) are vigorously rejected by liberal capitalism.

Astus wrote:
Monastic hierarchies (according to the Vinaya) do not depend on any realisation, but rather on ordination age and vote by the community. In practice, heads of monasteries have often been appointed (or influenced to be appointed) by various political entities, and for instance in the PRoC (likely) that is still the norm.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 5:18 AM
Title: Words, characters, syllables & liberation
Content:
Astus wrote:
[mod note: topic split from here https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=541014#p541014 ]

Vimalakirtinirdesa (Kumarajiva's translation) said:
"Letters all have the mark of liberation. Why is that? Liberation is not inside, not outside, nor in between the two. Letters are also not inside, not outside, nor in between the two. For that reason, Sariputra, liberation is taught without leaving behind letters. Why is that? Because all dharmas have the mark of liberation." (trans. Takagi + Dreitlein, 2011 pp81)

Astus wrote:
Tricky translation. From the context it is clear that the goddess refers to Sariputra's silence, not writing. Kumarajiva translates as 言說文字 what is akṣaram udāharati (Tib.: yi ger brjod pa), that is "spoken characters".

McRae (BDK ed, p 128):
'Speech and words are entirely the characteristics of emancipation. Why? Emancipation is neither internal, nor external, nor intermediate. Words are also neither internal, nor external, nor intermediate. Therefore, Śāriputra, the explanation of emancipation does not transcend words. Why? All dharmas have the characteristic of emancipation.'

Watson (Motilal Banarsidass ed., p 88):
'Words, writing, all are marks of emancipation. Why? Because emancipation is not internal, not external, and not in between. And words likewise are not internal, not external, and not in between. Therefore, Shariputra, you can speak of emancipation without putting words aside. Why? Because all things that exist are marks of emancipation.'

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh176.html#UT22084-060-005-16:
'All the syllables pronounced by the elder have the nature of liberation. Why? Liberation is neither internal nor external, nor can it be apprehended apart from them. Likewise, syllables are neither internal nor external, nor can they be apprehended anywhere else. Therefore, reverend Śāriputra, do not point to liberation by abandoning speech! Why? The holy liberation is the equality of all things!'


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
clyde said:
How synchronistic that “definitions” should arise here as I recently began reading The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, translated by Red Pine and read this last night: Hence buddhas of the past and future teach mind to mind without bothering about definitions.

Astus wrote:
Actually, that passage reads: 'Future buddhas and past buddhas transmit the mind by mind not relying on written words.' (「前佛後佛以心傳心。不立文字。」(CBETA 2020.Q1, T48, no. 2009, p. 373b13-14)). And then of course the text (written word) goes on to talk of (define) what mind is.

clyde said:
If I understand Sheng-yen correctly, one doesn’t need to awakened nor be an expert in the teachings to know who is or isn’t a genuine teacher, but have “some understanding”.

Astus wrote:
The point is that the teaching must conform to what the Buddha taught, that is what makes it valid.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Matt J said:
I am not sure that is the whole of it.

Astus wrote:
The body is made of the four elements, the mind of the six consciousness and the four mental aggregates. Seeing the nature of the mind (and body) is to recognise that it is empty, without a self. When body and mind are recognised as insubstantial, there is no grasping, and that is freedom.

'You trainees should have no doubts. It is the four elements that make up your bodies, but the four elements are without a self and the self is without a master. Therefore you should understand that this [human] body is without self and without master.
It is the five skandhas that make up the mind, but the five skandhas are without a self and without a master. Therefore you should understand that the mind is without self and without master.'
(Huangbo Xiyun in Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 19)

'If the mind grasps at dharmas, then it gets involved in external causes and conditions, which is the meaning of birth and death. If the mind does not grasp at dharmas, that is suchness.'
(Mazu Daoyi, in Sun-Face Buddha, p 67)

Zhihuang said, “What does the Sixth Patriarch take as meditation?”
Xuance said, “What our master preaches is the wondrously peaceful and perfectly quiescent: the essence and functions are suchlike, suchlike. The five skandhas are fundamentally empty, the six [types of] sensory data are nonexistent. One does not enter and come out of [samādhi], one is neither concentrated nor disturbed. Meditation is in its nature nonabiding, and the serenity of meditation transcends abiding. Meditation in its nature is birthless, and the thoughts of meditation transcend birth. The mind is like space, but it is without any thinking of space.”
(Platform Sutra, ch 8, BDK ed, p 69)

And from a modern teacher:

'True practice means “staying with forms without attachment.” It is not to avoid or deny the existence of forms, but to reduce attachment by understanding the Buddha’s teaching that everything comes and goes with certain causes and conditions. In other words, with the insight that “penetrates the emptiness of the five aggregates in the profound practice of perfect wisdom,” we put aside attachment and see our existence as empty, the objects of our sense organs as empty, and whatever happens as empty. That is “staying with forms without attachment.” What a free and happy life it is!'
( http://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/EN375.pdf by Guo Ru, p 65-66)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 6:28 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Here's a definition from the Historical Dictionary of Chan Buddhism by Youru Wang (p 138):

JIANXING. A Chan term and an important notion in Chan teachings. Literally, it means "seeing (one's authentic) nature." This teaching was a Chinese appropriation of Indian Mahayana tathagatagarbha (Buddha-nature) thought. The tathagatagarbha tradition teaches that every human being has Buddha-nature within. This Buddha-nature is the inner cause and condition of enlightenment. Some texts of this tradition also teach that this Buddha-nature is the foundation of the world.
In Chinese Chan tradition, for example, in the Platform Sutra Buddha-nature is equivalent to the self-nature (zixing) in the sense that Buddha-nature cannot be objectified and realized outside each person. Seeing or realizing the Buddha-nature is the existential transformation of personhood, being able to understand and appreciate what constitutes a person - elements of impermanence and non-abiding - and then acting accordingly. Jianxing is therefore another term for enlightenment. The English translation of xing here as "nature" is somewhat misleading. The Buddha-nature or self-nature in the above-mentioned Chan soteriological context is not a changeless essence deeply rooted in the human mind for one to discover; rather, it refers to the changeability, transformation, and growth of personhood. Jianxing thus requires the accomplishment of action, the practical-behavioral carrying out of non-attachment.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 5:43 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
clyde said:
“seeing one’s true nature”

Astus wrote:
The problem starts at the very definition of such a term. Most seem to skip that problem by delegating the definition to the realm of the mystical and relying on a mythical lineage of transmission of the ineffable, thus all authority on deciding whether one has "seen the nature" lies with whoever is nominated as a representative of that lineage. This is actually what seem to be the common solution to avoid doctrinal debates and instead get bogged down in arguments over lineage. So even in this thread what one can see are laments over the sorry state of the transmission (although that sentiment itself is over a thousand years old - see e.g. Fayan's Ten Guidelines for Zen Schools). But it is not true that Zen (Chan, Seon, Thien) has no clear position on what the true nature is, it's just that dramatic stories and hidden transmissions are easier to comprehend. And since as long as one does not know what the Buddha taught, it is not possible to decide whether what a teacher says is true or not.

'Without an understanding of the Dharma, there is no way a practitioner can tell if a teacher is genuine or false.'
(Sheng-yen, in http://ddc.shengyen.org/cgi-bin/ccdd/show.py?s=09-06p0027 )

So, do all Zen teachers have realised the nature of mind? There is no guarantee for that. The only thing one can do is to see if what they teach matches the Buddha's words or not.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 4:18 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Shinran was wrong. His assertion cannot be defended either thorough citation or through reasoning.

Astus wrote:
Not wrong, if it is understood that the various grades of the practitioners is valid from the human perspective but not in Sukhavati.

'In the Pure Recompensed Land produced by the great vow, there is no distinction of grades and stages. In an instantaneous thought-moment one quickly realizes highest, perfect, true enlightenment. Hence, we say “crosswise transcendence.'
( http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/horai/kgss-c.htm, BDK ed: p 123)

'Those who wish to be born in the Pure Land are originally divided into nine classes, but [after they have been born there] there are no di›erences, just as the waters of the Tzu River and the Sheng River become of one taste [upon entering the sea]. How can we conceive of this?'
( http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/horai/kgss-e.htm, BDK ed: p 172)

'If the single thought of joy and gratitude is awakened in us,
We shall realize nirvana without severing our blind passions.
When ordinary people and sages as well as those who commit the [five] grave o›enses and abusers of the  [Right] Dharma are taken into the Vow,
They become one in spiritual attainment, just as many rivers become of one taste upon entering the sea.'
( http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/horai/kgss-b.htm, BDK ed: p 76)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 4:12 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Yeah, it is really is not a quick path to full buddhahood unless you are born as someone of grade 1, according to the scheme you present. And this 500 human year period applies even to those who have committed the five misdeeds of immediate retribution, etc. By contrast, according to your scheme as presented, buddhahood in Sukhavati for such people takes 12 mahākalpas (720 minor kalpas), or twelve billion ninety-six million human years. So yeah, Sukhavati is a slow path according to Sūtrayāna norms and a human perspective.

Astus wrote:
From an ordinary human perspective it might seem slow, but from the individual's perspective even those of the worst character spend only 12 days enclosed in a lotus (and even there there is no suffering). Furthermore, if we accept that there are teachings that can liberate in this human life, it is so much easier to accomplish the same in Sukhavati.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 3:33 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Who wants to sit on a Lotus for  500 years? Lets just  get the job done.

Astus wrote:
Those who are "stuck" in a lotus for a longer period are the ones born of the two lowest grades according to the Contemplation Sutra. Such people would have otherwise fallen to the hells. As for getting the job done, that's the main problem that birth in Sukhavati resolves, that most people cannot get it done in one life, they do not reach any of the noble stages but remain ordinary beings, and as such are easily driven to lower births, and are certainly not free from the vicissitudes of samsara.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
clyde said:
they have had some direct realization.

Astus wrote:
Direct realisation of what? BTW, I think most people who stick with the Dharma do so because they find it beneficial. Whether that benefit is of mundane or transcendent nature is another issue.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Pure lands are said to be 500  super long times or so. I mean the yoga of two stages, yoga of rushen, etc. It is done as a teacher explains.

Malcolm said:
Yes, when taking birth in the pure lands, there is no guarantee one will take rebirth in an open lotus. And even then, it takes thousands upon thousands of human years ( I figured it out once and reported the lenght of time somewhere in this board) to attain awakening. By contrast, Dzogchen teachings promise that if one takes birth in the pure lands as a result of having encountered and understood Dzogchen teachings, full awakening, buddhahood, will happen there in as little as 500 human years.

Astus wrote:
There are some calculations and explanations given on how and why birth in Sukhavati is the fastest way https://purelanders.com/2011/12/10/the-fastest-way-to-buddhahood-is-via-birth-in-pure-land/. To that it might be added that all teachings are available there, and the realm is ideal to perfect them.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Dan74 said:
everyone who deserved the name 'Zen teacher'

Astus wrote:
Zen teacher, as in anyone who somebody called a Zen teacher, or anyone who received such a title from an organisation, or what version do you mean?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
All of our beginningless past-life samsaric experience is actually stored in our present physical form, which is the expression of traces of karma and affliction.

Astus wrote:
Actually stored as physical elements, or some version of avijnapti-rupa, or is it more like there is a correlation between the alayavijnana and the body?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 8:18 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The easiest way to get into the pure lands is to receive complete Dzogchen teachings, understand them, and then fail to practice them. No prayers necessary.

Astus wrote:
Why would it be easier to learn and understand complete (what counts as complete?) Dzogchen teachings, instead of reciting Amitabha's name right now? Also, how can Dzogchen studies result in birth in Sukhavati, what is the cause for that?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Buddha recollection will not result in Buddhahood in one life. Yoga does.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean anybody who did yoga - whatever that means - once for ten minutes attains buddhahood in this life? Or if one does yoga very well for thirty years, buddhahood is guaranteed to happen then? Because those who faithfully recite the name of Amitabha even just ten times are guaranteed to be born in Sukhavati, and once there, buddhahood is guaranteed as well, no fall back possible. So although one may practise yoga throughout one's life, unless buddhahood was actually attained, one should still aim to be born in Sukhavati.

As Thrangu Rinpoche says in chapter 12 of Luminous Clarity:

'To be reborn in most of the great pure realms, one needs an immeasurable store of merit. There is an exception to this, however, which is the pure realm of Sukhavati. Although it is hard to get in to an authentic pure realm, it is easy to be born into the realm of Sukhavati because of the aspiration of the Buddha Amitabha. So Karma Chagme advises us to make the intense aspiration to achieve rebirth in Sukhavati because if we are not born in a pure realm, then we might be reborn in one of the higher realms within samsara, which is still samsara. So we wish to achieve awakening through the practice of the generation and completion stages and the practice of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. But if this does not happen, we can ensure that we are reborn in a pure realm. We are therefore advised to aspire for a rebirth in Sukhavati.'


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Back to the reason to choose  Vajrayana: done well there is not much to study. You just do yoga.

Astus wrote:
If the absence of studying is a reason, I don't know anything less intellectually challenging and at the same time 100% liberating path than buddha-recollection:

"Reciting the nembutsu does not come from studying and understanding its meaning. There is no other reason or cause by which we can utterly believe in attaining birth in the Pure Land than the nembutsu itself. ... Even if those who believe in the nembutsu study the teaching which Shakyamuni taught his whole life, they should not put on any airs and should sincerely practice the nembutsu, just as an illiterate fool, a nun or one who is ignorant of Buddhism."
( http://www.jodo.org/teachings/teachings02.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 7:47 PM
Title: Re: Non-conceptual
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
What does it mean to have a "direct, non-conceptual view of emptiness"? How can this non-conceptual characteristic be described? And which classical sources describe this view as the goal?

Astus wrote:
One first learns about insubstantiality, then understands the concept, and then confirms its validity in experience through cultivation, that indeed there is no substance, no independent experience, state, or being to rely on. What divides the conceptual comprehension from ascertainment in experience is whether one has actually investigated in one's present experience or merely thought about it. Calling it a "non-conceptual view" might be a misleading term, as the whole point is to realise that all views are fabricated, conceptual, and such concepts are actually baseless and insignificant. The point is not to gain a special perception or state of mind, but by seeing all of them as inessential not holding on to them, not identifying with them, and thus attaining freedom.

Ultimate truth is free of all conceptual projection. It is of two types: the ultimate truth that can be expressed, and the ultimate truth that cannot be expressed. ... What is empty of all conceptual projection, clear and subtle, is known as the “ultimate truth that cannot be expressed in words.” The ultimate truth is approximately this: totally empty of the two extremes of “being” and “nonbeing” (i.e., neither eternal nor totally nonexistent).
(Summary on the Meaning of the Middle Way by Bhavaviveka, v 4, 7-8, in Indian Madhyamaka Buddhist Philosophy after Nagarjuna by Richard H. Jones, vol 1)

What is the absence of discrimination (nirvikalpata)? In brief, it is threefold: [1] non-discrimination in contentment (samtustinirvikalpata), [2] non-discrimination in the absence of perverse views (aviparyasanirvikalpata), and [3] nondiscrimination in the absence of idle speculations (nisprapancanirvikalpata). One should consider these three kinds as pertaining respectively to the ordinary man (prthagjana), the disciple (sravaka) and the bodhisattva. Non-discrimination in the absence of idle speculation should not be understood as nonthought (amanasikara), or as going beyond thought (manasikarasamatikrama) or as appeasement (vyupasama), or as [*own-*]nature (svabhava), or as a mental construction concerning an object (alambane abhisamskara), but as a mental non-construction concerning an object (alambane anabhisamskara).
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, tr Boin-Webb, p 240)

The ultimate is one only. Others maintain that it is twofold. How can the nature of reality (chos nyid), which cannot be established as anything, be two, three, and so on? [The ultimate] is defined as nonarising, noncessation, and so forth according to the formula [given] by treatises. Because of the way in which different ultimates do not exist, there is neither a subject (chos can) nor its property (chos nyid) [for inferential reasoning]. There is not any differentiation in emptiness. When cognized in a nonconceptual manner, it is conventionally designated that “emptiness is seen.” It is said in the very profound sūtras that the state of nonseeing is seeing [ultimate reality]. In that (ultimate reality), there is neither seeing nor seer, but peace without beginning or end. [Reality is] devoid of entity and nonentity, free from conceptions, free from objects, without support, without basis, without coming or going, unexemplified, ineffable, invisible, unchanging, and unconditioned. If a yogi realizes that, the afflictive and cognitive obstructions are eliminated.
(Entry to the Two Realities by Atisa, v 4-9, in Jewels of the Middle Way by James B. Apple)

In this way, when the person does not firmly apprehend the entity of a thing as ultimately existing; having investigated it with wisdom, the practitioner engages in non-conceptual single-pointed concentration. And thus the identitylessness of all phenomena is realized.
(Kamalashila, in Stages of Mediation by The Dalai Lama, p 133)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Meido said:
A lot was lost in China. That is why someone like Xuyun had to "revive" some Chan lineages that went extinct, and his descendant Sheng-yen needed to  reformulate and revive practices like silent illumination.

Astus wrote:
What do you mean lost? Buddhism (both monastic and lay communities) has been continuous in China for about two thousand years. The "revival" of the three discontinued lineages is rather nominal, just as the lineages of Linji and Caodong are mostly nominal without any practical relevance.

Meido said:
Whatever one thinks about Japanese Buddhism, they at least were able to preserve Tang and Song lineages for us.

Astus wrote:
Soto lineage transmission (among other elements) was reformed in the 18th century, and similarly all Rinzai lineages go back to the 18th century reforms of Hakuin.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Astus wrote:
On Zen and Esoteric connections, from Esoteric Buddhism and the Tantras in East Asia:

Evidence of some Zhenyan influence, mostly of some Northern Chan teachers, more so of Baotang Chan followers, but only tentatively any Hongzhou Chan masters.
(Sorensen, p 298–302)

Esoteric elements in Seon since 15th century. Heoung Pou (-1566), a prominent Seon master (was royal advisor), was also an Esoteric teacher, in his works mainly dharanis and mantras show up, wrote some ritual texts, and there is a work where he merges Seon doctrine with Esoteric practices. Cheongheo Hyujeong (1520-1604) was another outstanding Seon master adept in Esoteric Buddhism as well.
(Sorensen, p 634–42)

Keizan introduced esoteric practices to Soto, but at the same time criticised Eisai's Rinzai Zen for being polluted by it. Esoteric methods' presence in Zen is primarily in the form dharanis and rituals. Menzan Zuiho (1683-1769) received Shingon initiations (plus studied Sanskrit and mudras) in order to reform the ambrosia gate ritual performed during the Ghost Festival to relieve the suffering of the dead. As a result of Menzan's overall reforms old initiation documents from Soto are now public and they show a presence of tantric and explicit Shingon elements.
(Bodiford, 925-935)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 5:36 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
What I am claiming is that there is no direct introduction in sūtra. In sūtra, the nature of the mind, to use your term, is the result of the path, whether gradual or not, not the basis. In sūtra, one does not start at the nature of the mind because it is never directly introduced and no methods are provided for such an introduction. ... The principle difference is that in the case of the former, the interested student is first introduced to their own state by the teacher; in the case of the latter, the teacher confirms for the student they indeed have had a proper intuition of the nature of the mind.

Astus wrote:
Could you be more specific about what you mean here by direct introduction? If it's https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=306715#p306715, then that is not a method, and according to the story, did not happen at the beginning. If you mean here something more systematic, like as it is in mahamudra where one first has to actually ascertain for oneself the real state of one's nature, and then it is also pointed out by the master, then the order of things is rather "sutra style", but to that you might say is because it's sutra mahamudra. And that's why I asked if what you meant were the empowerments, as that is actually a requirement to engage in the various vajrayana methods.

I assume you don't mean that non-vajrayana teachers cannot tell how to do insight meditation in order to see directly the nature of mind and all phenomena. And since that is already covered in the sutras themselves, direct introduction must be something else, where a disciple does not have to follow specific instructions to attain realisation, but will have realisation without actually looking into their mind. So for instance a case like this cannot be called direct introduction:

"Huiming bowed to me and said, ‘I wish that you would preach the Dharma for me.’ I said, ‘You say you’ve come for the Dharma. [If so], you must eliminate the various conditions and not generate a single thought. [If you do], I will preach the Dharma for you.’ Huiming was quiet for a time. I said, ‘Do not think of good, and do not think of evil. At just such a time, what is Elder Huiming’s original face?’ At these words, Huiming [experienced] a great enlightenment."
(Platform Sutra, ch 1, BDK ed, p 25)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Chan, like all other sūtra traditions, lacks direct introduction.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean that there are no empowerments in sutra? Still, since the nature of mind is directly perceived in the sutrayana, the goal of the empowerments is achieved there too, so, as you noted before, it is the method that is different. But if we talk of Chan, the very meaning of sudden awakening is not going through stages using various skilful means to eventually attain realisation, but obtaining it directly. Then what methods can be talked about? Of course, in Chan there were various methods used and devised, 'Still, to even speak about practice is really like the last alternative. For example, in the use of weapons, they are really not auspicious objects! But they are used as the last alternative [in battles].', as noted by http://www.chancenter.org/chanctr/ddp/talks/beginners-m.html. Among such methods, when needed, mantra is very much accepted as an option, as Hanshan also stated: 'If your practice of huatou is not taking effect, or that you're unable to contemplate and illuminate your mind, or you're simply incapable of applying yourself to the practice, then you should practice prostrations, read the sutras, and engage yourself in repentance. You may also recite mantras to receive the secret seal of the Buddhas; it will alleviate your hindrances.'


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Then, people should just give it a rest when Tibetan Buddhists assign Chan to sūtra.

Astus wrote:
I think it's less about whether it is sutra based or not, and more about how tantra is posited as superior.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
White Sakura said:
Do you see an essential difference here to what is taught in Vajrayana? I mean, not in the Tantric teachings with visualization of course...

Astus wrote:
It's all Buddhadharma, there can be no essential difference, but there can be practical differences.

'When one is endowed with the meaning of emptiness, there is not a single thing which in not included in this path'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 252)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Still a sutric tradition.

Astus wrote:
Indeed. The Buddha's mind and the Buddha's words cannot be in disharmony.

Malcolm said:
Still just prajñāpāramitā.

Astus wrote:
Sure it is. There is no claim to the contrary.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
So we are agreed then. Chan is a sutric tradition.

Astus wrote:
As Hyujeong summarised:

'The transmission of the mind by the World Honored One at three sites is the gist of Seon; what was spoken by him over his lifetime is the gate of Doctrine. Therefore it is said, “Seon is the Buddha mind; Doctrine is the Buddha word.”'
(Seonga gwigam, §5, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 58)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
So, your method is simply to rest in the direct perception of the six senses? How is this different than the direct perception of a harrier or a rabbit?

Astus wrote:
'yet it is not attached to all the locations', 'without defilement or heterogeneity', 'penetrating function without stagnation' is/are the difference.

Or in https://ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/treatise-entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment:

'Q: What does "not dwelling anywhere or on anything" mean? 
A: Not to dwell anywhere or on anything means not to dwell on good or evil, existence or non-existence, within or without or on the middle, nor on concentration nor dispersion, and neither to dwell on the void nor on the non-void. This is the meaning of "not dwelling anywhere or on anything". Just this alone is real abiding. This stage of achievement is also the non-abiding Mind, and the non-abiding Mind is the Buddha Mind.'
...
'In summary, if no thought about these three time periods arises, then the three time periods do not exist. If a thought of moving arises, do not follow it; and the thought of moving will vanish. If a thought of dwelling arises, do not follow it; and the thought of dwelling will vanish. However, grasping at the thought of non-dwelling is abiding in non-dwelling. On the other hand, if you understand clearly that your mind does not abide anywhere whatsoever that is abiding, then you are neither abiding nor not abiding anywhere. If you understand clearly that your mind does not abide anywhere at all, then you are clearly seeing your Original Mind, which is also referred to as "clearly seeing the nature of seeing." Just this Mind, that abides nowhere at all, is the Mind of Buddha and the Mind of liberation, the Mind of Bodhi and the Mind of the Uncreate.'


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 24th, 2020 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
What distinguishes this from prajñāpāramitā?

Astus wrote:
It is prajnaparamita.

'Good friends, ‘mahāprajñāpāramitā’ is the most honored, the supreme, the primary. It is without abiding [in the present], without going [into the past], and without coming [from the future]. It is from this that all the buddhas of the three periods of time emerge. One should use this great wisdom to destroy the enervating defilements of the afflictions of the five skandhas. Those who cultivate in this fashion will definitely accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood, transforming the three poisons into morality, meditation, and wisdom.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 30)

Malcolm said:
Again, the point is that Chan is a sūtric tradition. It proposes no methods not found in a hundred Mahāyāna sūtras.

Astus wrote:
I did not debate that.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 24th, 2020 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
I still do not see a method. Cultivate what? Prajna? So how is that done?

Malcolm said:
Again, what is the practice method?

Astus wrote:
'What is nonthought? If in seeing all the dharmas, the mind is not defiled or attached, this is nonthought. [The mind’s] functioning pervades all locations, yet it is not attached to all the locations. Just purify the fundamental mind, causing the six consciousnesses to emerge from the six [sensory] gates, [causing one to be] without defilement or heterogeneity within the six types of sensory data (literally, the “six dusts”), autonomous in the coming and going [of mental phenomena], one’s penetrating function without stagnation. This is the samādhi of prajñā, the autonomous emancipation. This is called the practice of nonthought.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 33-34)

'Within continuing moments of thought one should not think of the previous [mental] realm. If one thinks of the previous thought, the present thought, and the later thought, one’s thoughts will be continuous without cease. This is called ‘fettered.’ If one’s thoughts do not abide in the dharmas, this is to be ‘unfettered.’ Thus it is that nonabiding is taken as the fundamental.'
(ch 4, p 43)

Some contemporary explanations:
https://www.lionsroar.com/does-no-thought-mean-no-thought/
https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln360/Shengyan-zuochan.htm
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/silent-illumination/


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 24th, 2020 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
These quotes are not promises.

Astus wrote:
They described the method of sudden enlightenment that is equal to buddhahood. But if you want something in the format of a promise:

'Those who cultivate in this fashion will definitely accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood, transforming the three poisons into morality, meditation, and wisdom.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 30)

'If you recognize your own mind and see the nature, you will definitely accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood.'
(ch 2, p 32)

'If you recognize the self-nature, with a single [experience of] enlightenment you will attain the stage of buddhahood.'
(ch 2, p 33)

'Good friends, those who attain my Dharma in later generations will see and practice according to this sudden teaching exactly as I have explained. Because they will generate the vow [to attain buddhahood] and maintain it just as if they are serving the Buddha, they will not regress during their entire lives and will definitely enter the stage of sagehood.'
(ch 2, p 34)

'If people of later times understand the point of this verse, they will see their own fundamental minds and achieve the enlightenment of buddhahood.'
(ch 10. p 90)

Malcolm said:
Yes, they all speak of the possibility of buddhahood in a single life, but have no method of ensuring the same.

Astus wrote:
The method to see the nature of mind is explained again and again, and when the nature is seen, that is attaining enlightenment.

'To practice in every moment of thought is called the true nature. To be enlightened to this Dharma is the Dharma of prajñā, to cultivate this practice is the practice of prajñā. To not cultivate this is to be an ordinary [unenlightened] person. To cultivate this in a single moment of thought is to be equivalent to the Buddha in one’s own body.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 30)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 24th, 2020 at 6:03 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
These  are   not sutras   from Buddha. They are  pith instructions from lineage masters.   We can talk   about where Bodhidharma got those.

Astus wrote:
The question was "Where does Chan promise Buddhahood in one lifetime?", and the quotes are from generally accepted Chan classics.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 24th, 2020 at 4:03 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Varis said:
It often feels like these arguments about Ch'an v. Vajrayana originate in the fact that Ch'an offers many of the same benefits Vajrayana claims to offer exclusively. Namely, Buddhahood in a single lifetime, the integration of daily life and the sense pleasures, etc.
Although I'll admit that Vajrayana has many more methods, particularly when it comes to the intermediate state.

Malcolm said:
Where does Chan promise Buddhahood in one lifetime?

Astus wrote:
The most famous is the Platform Sutra that advocates for "sudden enlightenment" that is a hallmark of Chan teachings. Just look at how Huineng begins:

'The Great Master told the assembly, "Good friends, bodhi is fundamentally pure in its self-nature. You must simply use this mind [that you already have], and you will achieve buddhahood directly and completely. Good friends, listen well! This is the story of how I practiced and attained the Dharma."'
(Platform Sutra, ch 1, BDK ed, p 17)

Then throughout the scripture he explains the sudden teaching.

'To use wisdom to contemplate all the dharmas without grasping or rejecting is to see the nature and accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood.'
(ch 2, p 31)

'Transcending delusion and transcending enlightenment, one should always generate prajñā. Eradicating  the true and eradicating the false, one sees the buddha-nature. This is to accomplishthe enlightenment of buddhahood upon hearing these words.'
(ch 6, p 49)

The central method of Chan, translated here as nonthought, is itself equated with buddhahood:

'Good friends, to be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is for the myriad dharmas to be completely penetrated. To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to see the realms of [all] the buddhas. To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to arrive at the stage of buddhahood.'
(ch 2, p 34)

And to be clear, it talks not only of sudden enlightenment, but also sudden cultivation:

'The self-nature is without error, without stupidity, and without disruption. In moment after moment of thought, prajñā illuminates, constantly transcending the characteristics of dharmas. Independent and autonomous, he apprehends everything—how could there be any positing? The self-nature becomes enlightened itself, sudden enlightenment and sudden cultivation. There is no gradual progression. Therefore, one does not posit all the dharmas. The dharmas are quiescent—how could there be a progression?'
(ch 8, p 75)

On that point, here's Buswell's summary from the introduction of Bird in Flight Leaves no Trace:

'The answer of both Subul Sunim and Huangbo is deceptively simple: just stop thinking there is something we need to practice. Then the enlightenment inherent to the mind manifests itself naturally, and we spontaneously receive the transmission of the mind-dharma. In this way, religious practice is perfected through, and simultaneously with, enlightenment itself. This is the quintessential “sudden awakening accompanied by sudden cultivation” (Chinese dunwu dunxiu, Korean dono donsu 頓悟頓修) approach that has inspired Seon practice throughout much of its history.'

A bit more from Buswell (and Lopez) on the topic of sudden enlightenment: https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/slow-motion-satori/.

In Huangbo's words:

'Trainees who wish to achieve Buddhahood [should understand that] it is completely useless to study any of the Buddhist teachings — just study nonseeking and nonattachment. Nonseeking is for the mind (i.e., moments of thought) not to be generated, and nonattachment is for the mind not to be extinguished. Neither generating nor extinguishing—this is Buddhahood. The eighty-four thousand teachings are directed at the eighty-four thousand afflictions and are only ways to convert and entice [sentient beings into true religious practice]. Fundamentally all the teachings are nonexistent; transcendence is the Dharma, and those who understand transcendence are Buddhas. By simply transcending all the afflictions, there is no dharma that can be attained.'
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, ch 4, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 20)

Further on the path of sudden enlightenment, this one from Huangbo's teacher Baizhang Huaihai:

'Question: What is the essential method for sudden enlightenment in the great vehicle?
The master said,
You all should first put an end to all involvements and lay to rest all concerns; do not remember or recollect anything at all, whether good or bad, mundane or transcendental - do not engage in thoughts. Let go of body and mind, set them free.
With mind like wood or stone, not explaining anything with the mouth, mind not going anywhere, then the mind ground becomes like space, wherein the sun of wisdom naturally appears. It is as though the clouds had opened and the sun emerged.
Just put an end to all fettering connections, and feelings of greed, hatred, craving, defilement and purity all come to an end. Unmoved in the face of the five desires and eight influences, not choked up by seeing, hearing, discerning or knowing, not confused by anything, naturally endowed with all virtues and the inconceivable use of all paranormal powers, this is someone who is free.
In the presence of all things in the environment, to have a mind neither still nor disturbed, neither concentrated nor distracted, passing through all sound and form without lingering or obstruction, is called being a wayfarer.
Not setting in motion good, evil, right or wrong, not clinging to a single thing, not rejecting a single thing, is called being a member of the great vehicle.
Not bound by any good or evil, emptiness or existence, defilement or purity, doing or nondoing, mundane or transcendental, virtue or knowledge, is called enlightened wisdom. Once affirmation and negation, like and dislike, approval and disapproval, all various opinions and feelings come to an end and cannot bind you, then you are free wherever you may be; this is called a bodhisattva at the moment of inspiration immediately ascending to the stage of Buddhahood.'
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 78)

And from Baizhang's Dharma-brother Dazhu Huihai:

'Sudden Enlightenment means liberation during this lifetime. Just as a lion-cub, from the moment it is born, is a real lion, likewise anyone who practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method has, from the moment he begins his practice, already entered the Buddha-Stage. Just as the bamboo-shoots growing in springtime are not different from the parent bamboo-shoots, because they are also empty inside, likewise anyone who practices the Sudden-Enlightenment method to rid himself suddenly of false thought abandons, like the Buddhas, the sense of an ego and a personality forever. Being absolutely deep, still and void, he is, then, without an iota of difference, equal to the Buddhas.'
( https://www.ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/treatise-entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment )

See more from two modern Chan teachers:
https://chancenter.org/chanctr/ddp/channews/02-1996.html by Sheng-yen
http://middleland.org/teachings/gradual-cultivation-and-sudden-enlightenment/ by Wei Chueh

Malcolm said:
Zen exhibits rhetorical borrowing from Shingon and Tendai Esoteric Buddhism.

Astus wrote:
Tendai got mixed with mantra in Japan, it's a work of Saicho.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 24th, 2020 at 1:30 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
In other words, common Mahāyāna has many methods. However, in addition to those methods are many unshared or uncommon methods which are not found in sūtra. So by definition, Secret Mantra has more methods.

Astus wrote:
Of course.

Malcolm said:
And no, they are not just methods for generating bliss.

Astus wrote:
A that's why I asked if there are many methods to generate bliss, or simply many methods among which some may use bliss.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 24th, 2020 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Astus: this is grouping of creation and completion stages under the rubric of śamatha and vipaśyanā is a kind of Lam rim politics.

Astus wrote:
Might be so, but such a summary of the so called sutrayana could be called a rough generalisation as well, and quite often the two are practised as one.

Malcolm said:
There are many methods related to mantra recitation, maṇḍala offerings, guru yoga, samaya, mudras, homavidhi and so on, nāḍis, vāyus, bindus, cakras, postural yogas, prāṇāyāma, abhiṣeka as introduction to the path, rather than sign of attaining the result, and so on. You will find none of these methods mentioned in sūtra, apart from the term "mantra," maṇḍala, and abhiṣeka in very limited contexts.

Astus wrote:
Are they all methods to generate bliss? As for the presence of manifold methods in vajrayana, no doubt about that. At the same time, even to prepare for samatha there are various methods in sutrayana too, not to mention all the others. For instance, in https://ymba.org/books/taming-monkey-mind-guide-pure-land-practice there are 48 methods just for buddha-recollection.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 23rd, 2020 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The key distinction is many methods involving the body to generate bliss and make clear the wisdom. Sutras have only samatha-vipassanma. That's just the way it is.

Astus wrote:
Bliss (sukha) is present in the first three dhyanas, but eventually the yogi lets go of that too in the fourth. As for the "many methods", could you specifically name some others not related to the one method of candali? Also, generation and completion stage practices fit under the categories of samatha and vipasyana.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 23rd, 2020 at 3:40 PM
Title: Re: Im getting close to understanding anatman but still have some objections
Content:
Artziebetter1 said:
prakasha gives rise to vimarsha.what if prakasha is inactive but vimarsha is what changes?

Astus wrote:
If something can be a cause, then it changes (active), and what changes is impermanent.

Artziebetter1 said:
Objection:what if the Tirthika states that only Brahman exists ,and that other objects are merely brahman aswell? the one inherently existant entity is merely interacting with itself.

Astus wrote:
Atman is necessarily singular. Many objects mean multiplicity. So atman/brahman interacting with itself is not possible.

Artziebetter1 said:
the one brahman Hypostasis multiplies itself into many hypostasises thru concealment (thru its omnipotent power to do the impossible it conceals and cloaks the one Consciousness into many conscious entities)

Astus wrote:
If brahman can do all that, then it is not only active (so impermanent), but also self-deluding and falling apart.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 22nd, 2020 at 3:34 PM
Title: Re: I am struggling. Was consciousness the most important aggregate according to the Buddha?
Content:
Tom2892 said:
Is consciousness the same as awareness? Is the consciousness that is described as an aggregate the same as Rigpa? If this consciousness really was unconditioned, why don't the Pali Suttas mention to focus on "the one who knows" at all? (at least in my poor knowledge).

Astus wrote:
Consciousness (vijnana), the aggreate, is not apart from the other mental aggregates ( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.054.than.html ), nor does it exist apart from something to be conscious of ( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.067.than.html ), and there is no sense in talking of "one who knows" ( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.12/en/bodhi ) when consciousness is understood to be a dependent phenomenon not apart from other appearances. Knowing, cognizance, the function/ability to be aware of or conscious of things is the role and distinct quality of the consciousness aggregate, but it's not the sole mental function there is. Also, it is usually the formations (samskara) aggregate that people identify with mainly, although among those who practice some form of meditation the position of being the "knower", "bare awareness", "watcher", etc. is a popular concept of self.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 18th, 2020 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Zen/Attain True Self
Content:
shanyin said:
Can someone explain what one's true self is?

Astus wrote:
"Mahayana Buddhism is based on the philosophy of emptiness (ku in Japanese, shunyata in Sanskrit) of both subject and object. In order to explain emptiness which cannot be grasped by concepts, Buddhist philosophers use various terms such as tathata, ‘true-self’, ‘one-mind’, ‘original-face’, ‘Dharma-body of the Buddha’, ‘buddhamind’, etc. We must be careful not to grasp these terms as a kind of substantial existence."
( https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/leaflet/heartofzen/index.html, p89n122)

shanyin said:
To attain your true self what do you need to do besides being awake here and now?

Astus wrote:
'Kensho: (J., “seeing nature”) A Zen term referring to an enlightenment experience in which one perceives one’s own true self-nature as “empty,” devoid of fixed reality. Kensho is synonymous with the Japanese Zen term satori, but the latter is considered to be a deeper and more significant experience of emptiness than kensho. See also Shunyata.'
(The Method of No-method, p 142)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 11th, 2020 at 2:50 PM
Title: Re: Host & Guest - Explanation?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Xuyun provided a bit of an explanation on host and guest (from https://www.emptycloud.net/articles-2/chan-meditation-%E7%A6%85/the-chan-training/?cn-reloaded=1 ):

"How should one start the (Ch’an) training? In the Surangama assembly, Arya Ajnatakaundinya talked about the two words ‘Foreign Dust’ and this is just where we should begin our training. He said: ‘For instance, a traveler stops at an inn where he passes the night or takes his meal, and as soon as he has done so, he packs and continues his journey, because he has no time to stay longer. As for the host (of the inn), he has nowhere to go. My deduction is that the one who does not stay is the guest and the one who does stay is the host. Therefore, a thing is foreign when it does not stay. Again in a clear sky, when the sun rises and sunlight enters (the house) through an opening, the dust is seen moving in the ray of light whereas the empty space is unmoving. Therefore, that which is still is voidness and that which moves is dust.’

Foreign dust illustrates false thinking, and voidness illustrates self-nature, that is the permanent host who does not follow the guest in the latter’s coming and going. This serves to illustrate the eternal (unmoving) self-nature which does not follow false thinking in its sudden rise and fall. Therefore, it is said: ‘if one is unmindful of all things, one will meet with no inconvenience when surrounded by all things.’ By dust which moves of itself and does not inconvenience voidness which is clearly still, one means that false thinking rises and falls by itself and does not hinder the self-nature which is immutable in its Bhutatathata (suchness, thatness) condition. This is the meaning of the saying: ‘If the mind does not arise, all things are blameless.’

(The meaning of) the above word ‘foreign’ is coarse and (that of) ‘dust’ is fine. Beginners should dearly understand (the difference between) ‘host’ and ‘guest’ and will thus not be ‘drifted about’ by false thinking. By advancing further, they win be clear about ‘voidness’ and ‘dust’ and thus will experience no inconvenience from false thinking. It is said: ‘when (false thinking) is known, there will be no harm.’ If you inquire carefully into and understand all this, over half of what the training means will become quite clear to you."

There is also a somewhat unrelated use of the terms that's called Linji's four guests and hosts (see Record of Linji, tr Sasaki, p 23-24). Here's Hyujeong's summary (from Seonga gwigam in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 178):

"The guest in the guest (means) the student (who is) without a clue but who has (meaningless) questions and answers. The host in the guest is the student with a clue, who has a host and a dharma. The guest in the host is the master without a clue, who has only the questions (of the student but no answers). The host in the host is the master with a clue, which is very special."


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 10th, 2020 at 8:14 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment and compassion
Content:
White Sakura said:
I understood you wanted to say that in Mahamudra the moonlight the moonlight is used for another analogy? If not, I am just happy because I like the analogy very much in the common way explaining it. So that would mean the title of the book refers to that traditional analogy.

Astus wrote:
The word moonlight in the title refers to the enlightened state of mahamudra, to the clarity of the mind. The analogy of the water moon is not related to it.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 10th, 2020 at 7:00 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment and compassion
Content:
White Sakura said:
can you quote it and explain? The text seems to be not secret, since you quote it often?

Astus wrote:
I don't know what you want quoted, it is a common analogy for the illusory nature of phenomena. It is not elaborated upon by Tashi Namgyal.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 10th, 2020 at 5:48 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment and compassion
Content:
White Sakura said:
just a question to this quote, since I do not know that text you quoted, but I am so fascinated to this analogy with the moon. I suppose, the title of that script refers to the analogy? And is it in Mahamudra understood in the same way as it is explained in the Prajnaparamita Sutras,and later the Mahayana texts?

Astus wrote:
Here "moonlight" refers to mahamudra itself.

"I will present an eloquent explanation of this moonlight [Mahamudra].
In its full phase it will contain the meanings of the sütras and tantras
And reveal the true nature of reality
As clearly as the outline of “the rabbit” [in the moon].
Let there be peace in those who wander in the darkness of delusion!"
(Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 5)

White Sakura said:
So are there different ways the moon-reflection-in-water-analogy is used to explain different teachings?

Astus wrote:
The analogy of "water moon" is a different one.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 10th, 2020 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Host & Guest - Explanation?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Host is emptiness, the essence, the nature of mind, while guest means phenomena. It's from the http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf (p 49-50, 51):

'(foreign dust) is like a guest who stops at an inn where he passes the night or eats something and then packs and continues his journey because he cannot stay longer. As to the host of the inn, he has nowhere to go. My deduction is that one who does not stay is a guest and one who stays is a host. Consequently, a thing is "foreign" when it does not stay. Again, when the sun rises in a clear sky and its light enters (the house) through an opening, the dust is seen to dance in the ray of light whereas the empty space does not move. I deduce that that which is still is the void and that which moves is the dust. Consequently, a thing is "dust" when it moves.
...
The Buddha then declared to the assembly: "So every worldly man knows that what moves is dust. and that he who does not stay is a guest. You have seen Ananda whose head moved of itself whereas his seeing was unmoved. You have also seen my fist which opened and closed of itself whereas his seeing neither expanded nor contracted. Why do you still regard the moving as your body and surroundings, and so, from beginning to end, allow your thoughts to rise and fall without interruption, thereby losing (sight of) your true nature and indulging in backward actions? By missing the (True) Mind of your nature and by mistaking (illusory) objects for your Selves, you allow yourselves to be caught in the wheel (of samsara) thereby forcing yourselves to pass through transmigrations."'


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 9th, 2020 at 7:07 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
jmlee369 said:
Hasn't the exoteric/esoteric (顯/密) division been used in East Asia since the Tang dynasty?

Astus wrote:
On what was called secret/esoteric, see: https://www.academia.edu/25175930/Is_there_really_Esoteric_Buddhism


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 8th, 2020 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm said:
That definition is an Indian Buddhist definition, not Tibetan.

Astus wrote:
Originally might be so, but even there postulated only by Tantrikas, however, currently it exists only in Tibetan Buddhism.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 5th, 2020 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
These systematic things are actually quite frustrating to apply, but nice for overview of what dharma has to offer.

Astus wrote:
Every school/tradition sets up its own system, their interpretation and organisation of the various teachings they recognise as valid. Therefore such systems are meant to highlight what that specific school believes to be the final view, and not to give a general ("objective") overview of Buddhism.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 5th, 2020 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Dan74 said:
Who actually practices Sutrayana, as understood by the Tibetan Buddhists?

Könchok Thrinley said:
Those who do not follow tantric teachings and methods. Zennies, theravadins, purelanders, etc.

Astus wrote:
Sutrayana, as understood in Tibetan Buddhism, exists only in Tibetan Buddhism, and as such, only Tibetan Buddhists could be sutrayana followers, as it is their view of Mahayana. Those who do not subscribe to the Tibetan interpretation of sutrayana naturally cannot follow it either.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 5th, 2020 at 2:18 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Nicholas2727 said:
why would one choose Mahayana (The much slower school) versus Vajrayana (The much quicker school?)

Astus wrote:
That's a somewhat false dichotomy. Mahayana is the largest group of teachings after Buddhism. There are Chinese Mahayana (the primary canonical language being Chinese) and Tibetan Mahayana (the primary canon being in Tibetan), and they have different histories. Both forms have various teachings and traditions, including the concept of buddhahood in this life/body.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 4th, 2020 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: What is the application of practicing nagarjuna middle way in real life?
Content:
confusedlayman said:
If someone reads and want to apply nagarjuna middle way discourse in real life, how would he do?

Astus wrote:
Apart from the mentioned https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Four_Hundred_Verses (see also https://books.google.hu/books?id=9pyqUV89ZQcC ) and the https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Bodhicharyavatara, there are the https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Precious_Garland and the https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Letter_to_a_Friend by Nagarjuna, and the https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Shikshasamucchaya by Santideva.

confusedlayman said:
will he know that all things have no position and simple dont have clinging or no intentional action? what is the real application in terms of experience ?

Astus wrote:
It's cultivating the six paramitas. See this great summary: http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/n6p_book_page.htm.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 3rd, 2020 at 3:23 PM
Title: Re: Soto zen and problem of satori
Content:
Matylda said:
Soto has nothing special or different to offer, than any other zen school - it is satori, daigo and liberation. For this one has to work hard.

Astus wrote:
If practice is not realisation, but rather practice brings about realisation, then it is really nothing different. But then, why not just follow the established teachings of the Mahayana as taught in the sutras and shastras? That is a fairly well defined gradual path with identifiable goals and stages.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 3rd, 2020 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Soto zen and problem of satori
Content:
Matylda said:
Well, do people really think that they are Dogens? It was his experience not others..

Astus wrote:
It's what Dogen taught, not just experienced. But if Dogen's teachings cannot be followed, then there can be no heirs to talk of, so what is Soto then?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 3rd, 2020 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: The attaintment in chan according to ten bhumis standard
Content:
Astus wrote:
Different people have different views on what level matches seeing the nature of mind, i.e. sudden realisation. It can be anything from the level of faith, through 1st and 8th stage, to buddhahood. But there's not much to any of that unless one can recognise for oneself that there is nothing to attain.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 3rd, 2020 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Soto zen and problem of satori
Content:
Astus wrote:
If just sitting is dropping body and mind, and dropping body and mind is great realisation, what need for anything else? Or is that not so?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 2nd, 2020 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Soto zen and problem of satori
Content:
Astus wrote:
What made the Soto church change its approach? Was it to purge it from "foreign elements" and return to Dogen's ideals? Apparently Dogen was https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=20655.
Also, what could be lacking from the simple form of just sitting to require all the other elements added?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 30th, 2020 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
npr said:
That's not quite what what Gotama Buddha says in DN13.   He refers to The Path

Astus wrote:
The attainment of the practice with the brahmaviharas is given in that sutta: "It’s possible that that mendicant will, when the body breaks up, after death, be reborn in the company of Brahmā." That is not liberation. You can see in the https://suttacentral.net/mn97/en/sujato how the Buddha reprimanded Sariputta for only leading someone to birth in the "inferior Brahmā realm".


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 30th, 2020 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I think ‘the absolute’ is not a bad candidate for translation of ‘the unconditioned’ (as used in, for instance, the translations in Sutta Central.)  After all, nothing can be ‘partially unconditioned’.

Astus wrote:
Where exactly is asaṅkhata translated as the absolute there? Also, translating it as unconditioned (as done by https://suttacentral.net/an3.47/en/bodhi and https://suttacentral.net/an3.47/en/sujato ) seems quite reasonable, as it's the opposite of conditioned.

Blofeld does not translate it (無為) as the absolute.

"From thought-instant to thought-instant, no form; from thought-instant to thought-instant, no activity (無為)  - that is to be a Buddha!"
(p 40)

"Its strength once spent, the arrow falls to earth.
You build up lives which won't fulil your hopes.
How far below the Transcendental (無為) Gate
From which one leap will gain the Buddha's realm!"
(p 62)

"it is without any such distinctions as long and short, it is beyond attachment and activity (無為), ignorance and Enlightenment."
(p 63-64)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 30th, 2020 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
Wayfarer said:
within the domain of discourse of comparative religion, ‘the absolute’ has a meaning, but that doesn’t make it easy to define.

Astus wrote:
The question at hand is about "Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’", and as the term itself was taken from Blofeld's translation, it turned out that Huangbo's records did not actually name anything "The Absolute", but it's rather the translator's choice to render various common Buddhist terms as such. So it's not just that there is no absolute, nobody has even mentioned it before Blofeld.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 30th, 2020 at 6:13 PM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
npr said:
What do you think about that? Regardless if the correct translation is companionship (what's to companionship and to Brahma anyway??) or uonion with

Astus wrote:
Brahma is a type of gods in Buddhism, and through the practice of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmavihara one can gain https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html. It is not the ultimate goal of Buddhism.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 30th, 2020 at 4:51 PM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
Wayfarer said:
the word ‘absolute’ is just a placeholder.

Astus wrote:
A placeholder for what? It seems that it requires specification, otherwise one habitually understands it according to whatever vague concept one associates with it, thus going to derail oneself right at the beginning and misinterpret the whole Dharma. Like for instance looking for some ultimate state to become, or trying to obtain some special insight from encounters.
But Huangbo taught quite directly what one can learn from almost any introductory book:

"Students of the Way should be sure that the four elements composing the body do not constitute the 'self, that the 'self' is not an entity; and that it can be deduced from this that the body is neither 'self' nor entity. Moreover, the five aggregates composing the mind (in the common sense) do not constitute either a 'self or an entity ; hence, it can be deduced that the (so-called individual) mind is neither 'self nor entity. The six sense organs (including the brain) which, together with their six types of perception and the six kinds of objects of perception, constitute the sensory world, must be understood in the same way. Those eighteen aspects of sense are separately and together void. There is only Mind-Source, limitless in extent and of absolute purity.
Thus, there is sensual eating and wise eating. When the body composed of the four elements suffers the pangs of hunger and accordingly you provide it with food, but without greed, that is called wise eating. On the other hand, if you gluttonously delight in purity and flavour, you are permitting the distinctions which arise from wrong thinking. Merely seeking to gratify the organ of taste without realizing when you have taken enough is called sensual eating."
(Blofeld, p 38-39)

In Buswell's translation (PDF p 53-55):

"Practitioners of the Way, have no doubt that the four great elements constitute the body, that these four great elements have no self, and that the self has no master. Know that this body has no self and no master. The five aggregates are mind, but the five aggregates have no self and no master. Know therefore that this mind has no self and no master. The six sense bases, six sense objects, and six sense consciousnesses come into contact with each other and become subject to production and cessation, so this is also the case with them as well. Since these eighteen elements of cognition are empty, everything is empty. There is only the original mind, which is serene and pure.
There is the nutriment of consciousness and the nutriment of wisdom. The body consisting of the four great elements is tormented by hunger and disease. Nurturing this body with only what it needs, without generating greed and craving, is called the nutriment of wisdom. Self-indulgently clinging to what is tasty, mistakenly giving rise to discrimination, seeking out only what pleases your taste buds, and without generating any sense of loathing — this is called the nutriment of consciousness."


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 30th, 2020 at 3:21 PM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
Astus wrote:
Wondering about a concept that exists only in an English translation is unlikely to be fruitful. It was https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=533367#p533367 to render terms like tathata and dharmadhatu as absolute. Here's his explanation from the introduction (p 16-17):

"Zen followers (who have much in common with mystics of other faiths) do not use the term 'God', being wary of its dualistic and anthropomorphic implications. They prefer to talk of 'the Absolute' or 'the One Mind', for which they employ many synonyms according to the aspect to be emphasized in relation to something finite. Thus, the word 'Buddha' is used as a synonym for the Absolute as well as in the sense of Gautama, the Enlightened One, for it is held that the two arc identical. A Buddha's Enlightenment denotes an intuitive realization of his unity with the Absolute from which, after the death of his-body, nothing remains to divide him even in appearance. Of the Absolute nothing whatever can be postulated; to say that it exists excludes non-existence; to say that it does not exist excludes existence. Furthermore, Zen followers hold that the Absolute, or union with the Absolute, is not something to be attained; one does not enter Nirvana, for entrance to a place one has never left is impossible. The experience commonly called 'entering Nirvana' is, in fact, an intuitive realization of that Self-nature which is the true Nature of all things. The Absolute, or Reality, is regarded as having for sentient beings two aspects. The only aspect perceptible to the unenlightened is the one in which individual phenomena have a separate though purely transitory existence within the limits of space-time. The other aspect is spaceless and timeless; moreover all opposites, all distinctions and 'entities' of every kind, are here seen to be One. Yet neither is this second aspect, alone, the highest fruit of Enlightenment, as many contemplatives suppose; it is only when both aspects are perceived and reconciled that the beholder may be regarded as truly Enlightened. Yet, from that moment, he ceases to be the beholder, for he is conscious of no division between beholding and beheld. This leads to further paradoxes, unless the use of words is abandoned altogether. It is incorrect to employ such mystical terminology as 'I well in the Absolute' , 'The Absolute dwells in me', or 'I am penetrated by the Absolute', etc.; for, when space is transcended, the concepts of whole and part are no longer valid; the part is the whole - I AM the Absolute, except that I am no longer 'I'. What I behold then is my real Self, which is the true nature of all things; see-er and seen are one and the same, yet there is no seeing, just as the eye cannot behold itself."


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 29th, 2020 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Four Great Vows
Content:
jake said:
I see the four vows are linked to the four noble truths in Tiantai. I assume this also the case in the Tendai and Zen traditions?

Astus wrote:
Linking the four vows and the four truths is also found in Zhanran's (湛然) Great Meaning of the Cessation and Contemplation (Zhiguan Dayi 止觀大意; T46n1914p459b23-26), so I assume that it's accepted in Tendai as well. As for Zen, I don't know if there is such a connection emphasised. Anyhow, here's a Zen take on the four vows from Huineng:

「自心眾生無邊誓願度，自心煩惱無邊誓願斷，自性法門無盡誓願學，自性無上佛道誓願成。」
(CBETA 2020.Q1, T48, no. 2008, p. 354a11-13)

'the sentient beings of our own minds are limitless, and we vow to save them all. The afflictions of our own minds are limitless, and we vow to eradicate them all. The teachings of our own minds are inexhaustible, and we vow to learn them all. The enlightenment of buddhahood of our own minds is unsurpassable, and we vow to achieve it.'
( https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/platform-sutra-sixth-patriarch, ch 6, p 48)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 28th, 2020 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Four Great Vows
Content:
jake said:
Any suggestions?

Astus wrote:
As for the kanji part, although it's Chinese, the four great vows can be found in for instance the "Guide to the Tiantai Fourfold Teachings" (Tiantai Sijiao Yi 天台四教儀) by Ch'egwan (諦觀):

眾生無邊誓願度
煩惱無盡誓願斷
法門無量誓願學
佛道無上誓願成
(CBETA 2020.Q1, T46, no. 1931, p. 777b2-7)

Beings are numberless; I vow to save them all.
Defilements are inexhaustible; I vow to end them all.
The teachings are innumerable; I vow to master them all.
The path to buddhahood is unsurpassed; I vow to attain it.
( https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/tiantai-lotus-texts, p 183)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 27th, 2020 at 6:32 PM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Those few who took the trouble to visit Japan and begin the practice of Zen under a recognized Zen master or who joined the monastic Order soon discovered that it was a very different matter from what the popularizing literature had led them to believe. ... Altogether Zen demands an ability to participate in a communal life as regimented and lacking in privacy as the army.
I lack the self-discipline to practice this kind of discipline with any degree of rigour.

Astus wrote:
In Buddhism there are monastics and there are "householders". The quote restricts Zen to monastic practice. So, we can ask for instance: was Peixiu - an educated nobleman working in several high government positions - a genuine Chan practitioner, or not really? Guifeng Zongmi http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/Bcitta_excerpts/Bcitta_X-01_X-05.pdf this about him: 'I had become aware that he had entered the Buddha’s gateway and arrived at the mind state of the Buddha. ... he is an emissary of the Buddha engaged in carrying on the Buddha’s work.' Was he an exception?
I'm not saying you shouldn't go for Shinshu, don't get me wrong please. It's just that I don't see Zen as an exclusively monastic teaching (and then there are also differences between what monastic life is like, but that's another topic).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 27th, 2020 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
Queequeg said:
Zen and Zen-speak, or what I take to be Zen-speak from what I see in forums like this.

Astus wrote:
There are may things at play here that produces "Zen-speak". On the one hand, Zen is straightforward and to the point. On the other, it's a highly evolved and sophisticated literary genre. Then you mix the two sides and put in front of people who are not familiar with any of that, so it becomes gibberish when they start talking about it.

See how Guifeng Zongmi understood "Zen-speak" as actually the simple and easy one:

' The teachings are the sutras and treatises left behind by the buddhas and bodhisattvas. Chan is the lines of verse related by the various good friends [on the path]. The buddha sutras open outward, catching the thousands of the beings of the eight classes, while Chan verses scoop up an abridgment, being oriented to one type of disposition found in this land [of China].l1 [The teachings,] which catch [the thousands of] beings [of the eight classes], are broad and vast, and hence it is difficult to rely upon them. [Chan,] which is oriented to dispositions, points to the bull's-eye and hence is easy to use.'
(Zongmi on Chan, p 105)

And then consider this:

'There is a profound difference ... between the rhetoric of Zen that plays with language in a clever and calculated way to induce insight, and language that is merely confused and nonsensical. Unfortunately, because readers of Chan and Zen texts are accustomed to sage remarks that appear to be non sequiturs, when they are confronted by the garden variety of nonsense — e.g. the gibberish that results when mechanical translation is employed or quotation marks go missing — they are all too likely to chalk that up as normal for the language of Zen, which (they imagine) is not supposed to be comprehensible in the first place. Such a mode of reading ... is a serious mistake.'
(T. Griffith Foulk: https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/denkoroku/pdf/ABOUT_THE_TRANSLATION,_CONVENTIONS,_ABBREVIATIONS.pdf, in "Record of the Transmission of Illumination by the Great Ancestor, Zen Master Keizan", p xi-xii)

But at the same time:

'Unfortunately, the majority of the exchanges or anecdotes composed in the encounter dialogue format are not very good stories, in any meaningful sense. In fact, a huge number of Chan stories or exchanges, included in texts such as Jingde chuan deng lu and Bi yan lu, can be viewed as little more than nonessential ramblings, a peculiar type of religious gibberish. Basically, we are confronted with countless examples of mass-produced textual materials that tend to be highly formulaic, numbingly repetitive, and ostensibly pointless. One of the things that keeps amazing me is how otherwise intelligent or sincere people can take this sort of stuff seriously, although the history of religion is filled with blind spots of that sort.'
(Mario Poceski: The Records of Mazu and the Making of Classical Chan Literature, p 170-171)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 27th, 2020 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
npr said:
Here https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.105228 / https://terebess.hu/zen/Huangpo.pdf

Astus wrote:
Absolute = tathatā 如如

'The substance of the Absolute is inwardly like wood or stone, in that it is motionless, and outwardly like the void, in that it is without bounds or obstructions.'
(Blofeld, p 31-32)

「如如之體。內如木石不動不搖。外如虛空不塞不礙。」
(CBETA 2020.Q1, T48, no. 2012A, p. 380a17-19)

'The essence of suchness is unmoving like wood or stone within and unhindered like space without.'
(McRae, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 15)

'The essence of suchness is internally like wood or stone, which does not move or sway; externally, it is like empty space, which has no boundaries or obstructions.'
(Buswell, in A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, PDF p 37)

Absolute = dharmadhātu 法界

'He would just be himself oblivious of conceptual thought and one with the Absolute.'
(Blofeld, p 46)

「但自忘心。同於法界。便得自在。」
(CBETA 2020.Q1, T48, no. 2012A, p. 381c11-12)

'Simply forget your mind and identify yourself with the dharmadhatu, and you will attain autonomy.'
(McRae, p 25)

'If you just forget the mind and become the same as the dharma body, you will gain complete autonomy.'
(Buswell, p 69)

Absolute = tathatā 真如

'In the Absolute, there is nothing at all of this kind.'
(Blofeld, p 56)

「真如之中都無此事。」
(CBETA 2020.Q1, T48, no. 2012A, p. 382c21)

'There is no such [mode of attainment] within true suchness.'
(McRae, p 33)

'In true suchness, none of this is relevant.'
(Buswell, p 89)

Absolute = tathatā 真如

'Even Enlightenment, the Absolute, Reality, Sudden Attainment, the Dharmakaya and all the others down to the Ten Stages of Progress, the Four Rewards of virtuous and wise living and the State of Holiness and Wisdom are - every one of them - mere concepts for helping us through samsara; they have nothing to do with the real Buddha-Mind.'
(Blofeld, p 69)

「設使菩提真如實際解脫法身。直至十地四果聖位。盡是度門。非關佛心。」
(CBETA 2020.Q1, T48, no. 2012B, p. 384b17-18)

'Even though [you may attain] bodhi, suchness, the characteristic of reality, liberation, or the dharma body and directly reach the sanctified ranks of the ten stages or the four fruitions, all these involve the [expedient] gate of salvation. They have nothing to do with the buddha mind.'
(Buswell, p 124)

'[One can] suppose bodhi, thusness, ultimate reality, liberation, and the Dharmakaya, up to and including the ten stages [of the bodhisttva], the four fruits, and the rank of sagehood. All of these are [but] gates to crossing over [to Nirvana]. They do not concern the Buddha-mind.'
(The Wanling Record of Chan Master Huangbo Duanji: A History and Translation of a Tang Dynasty Text (university thesis) by Jeffrey M. Leahy, p 20)

Absolute = anutpattika-dharma-kṣānti 無生法忍

'It is all-pervading, spotless beauty; it is the self-existent and uncreated Absolute.'
(Blofeld, p 93)

「一道清流是自性。無生法忍」
(CBETA 2020.Q1, T48, no. 2012B, p. 387a7-8)

'A clear stream flowing in one direction is the selfnature’s acquiescence to the nonproduction of dharmas.'
(Buswell, p 194)

'The monk of the One Path is by his own nature accepting of this non-arising of dharmas.'
(Leahy, p 52)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 26th, 2020 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Zen’s stand regarding ‘The Absolute’
Content:
npr said:
If you can see the original Chinese text of Huang Po, and see what the original term that was translated to Absolute, was,  that can be nice

Astus wrote:
What translation? Could you please give some refernces?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 24th, 2020 at 6:22 PM
Title: Re: Momentariness
Content:
Artziebetter1 said:
Does momentariness imply things coming out of nothing?if the cause ceases completely before the effect even begins to arise,how do effects arise?
there must be things beginning the arise as soon as its cause begins to dissapear,but then why call it momentary?

Astus wrote:
Let's say one kicks a ball. The cause is the kick, the effect is the ball moving. The moment the kick happens is distinct from the ball moving, as at the moment of kicking the ball is stationary. When the ball begins to move the kick has already happened. Without the kick the ball does not move. Before the kick the ball does not move. When the ball is kicked, it still does not move. Only following the kick does the ball move.
The moment the foot contacts the ball, the ball is motionless. When the next moment the ball moves there is no longer the kick. So there is no problem with effect following the cause in distinct moments, nor is there an assumption of things coming out of nothing.
If the ball had already moved when the kick happened, one's foot would not even touch the ball as it would be already moving away, therefore cause and effect would be impossible.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 23rd, 2020 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: What are the most minimalist or simplest forms or schools of Buddhism?
Content:
Dgj said:
The fourth noble truth includes the eightfold path, technically, no?

Astus wrote:
The fourth is the path, so yes, of course.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 23rd, 2020 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
Bundokji said:
Don't you think the process of verification necessitates an unchanging essence?

Astus wrote:
Both sensory perception and reasoning require causal interaction, so no. Anything unchanging is a conceptual generalisation, not an experience.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 22nd, 2020 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
Bundokji said:
How can you define reality without reference to unchanging essence? what makes things identical (or recognizable) through time except reference to an unchanging essence that endures change?

Astus wrote:
This was the intended section of https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=532751#p532751 vis-a-vis defining reality without positing an unchanging essence:
"Something that is verifiable experientially or inferentially. We might also go with whether something has causal efficacy."


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 22nd, 2020 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
Bundokji said:
By reducing what is real to the presence of an unchanging essence would be be missing the point of what is it that makes things "real" in the first place except an underlying value.

Astus wrote:
Please note https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=532751#p532751. There is no need for an unchanging essence to define reality.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 22nd, 2020 at 10:08 PM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
Grigoris said:
So you believe that in the immaterial realms there is no sense of self?

Astus wrote:
I did not specify the nature of a possible referent for the idea of a self. Furthermore, four of the five aggregates are not material, so it is quite normal if one identifies with something other than the body.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 22nd, 2020 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: What are the most minimalist or simplest forms or schools of Buddhism?
Content:
Dgj said:
What are the most minimalist or simplest forms or schools of Buddhism?

Astus wrote:
The four noble truths are said to be both the summary ( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html ) and the all encompassing ( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html ) teaching of the Buddha.
What is highlighted in Mahayana as the essential teaching is prajnaparamita (e.g. Heart Sutra), and then that is transformed into teachings like Zen (e.g. Platform Sutra, ch 2) and Mahamudra (e.g. Jewel Ornament of Liberation, ch 17).


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 22nd, 2020 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
Grigoris said:
A mental action is still an action and thus has a "causal efficacy", even if it is just mental.  Don't forget that there are entire realms that are merely mental.  Are they not "real"?

Astus wrote:
As a thought, yes. But when one talks of a self, it is generally not understood to be merely a thought, but that it has a real referent. So when it is said that there is no self, it does not mean there is no idea of a self, but that what is assumed to be the referent of the idea of a self does not exist. And that is why assuming a self is delusional. The delusion is certainly there, but it is a delusion exactly because the belief in a self is misguided.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 22nd, 2020 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
Grigoris said:
Hold on to your horses partner:

Astus wrote:
"You may well accept, monks, the assumption of a self-theory from the acceptance of which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief, and despair. (But) do you see, monks, any such assumption of a self-theory?" — "No, Lord." — "Well, monks, I, too, do not see any such assumption of a self-theory from the acceptance of which there would not arise sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair."
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.nypo.html )

Grigoris said:
1.  Reality.  What does this term even mean?

Astus wrote:
Something that is verifiable experientially or inferentially. We might also go with whether something has causal efficacy. Or both.

Grigoris said:
2.  If there is an idea of a self, wouldn't that make it a type of reality?

Astus wrote:
If an idea does not refer to anything, then that idea is just an idea.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 22nd, 2020 at 5:36 PM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
Wayfarer said:
‘That context’ is existence, life and the living of it.

Astus wrote:
That "existence, life and the living of it" is a conceptual construct of how things are.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 22nd, 2020 at 4:08 PM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
Wayfarer said:
What's your interpretation of https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html#fn-5 where the Buddha asks: How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’?

Astus wrote:
Right view has two parts: the right view of karma, and the right view of the noble truths. When it comes to karma, one has to recognise that actions have consequences, and in ordinary terms those actions and consequences apply to the individual. In that context one talks of one's responsibility and such, so there is an agent who acts of his own volition, and then suffers the outcome of those acts.

Wayfarer said:
In the very short text https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html, the Buddha is asked straight out by Vachagotta the Wanderer, whether the self exists or does not exist. Both questions are met with silence.

Astus wrote:
It is explained by the Buddha why he did not answer in either way, as the questioner would have taken both versions incorrectly. These two types of mistakes of eternalism and annihilationism are mentioned regularly in the following format:

"To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient.'"
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.047.than.html )

But it doesn't mean there is any ambiguity or mystery regarding the Buddha's position about the concept of self.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 22nd, 2020 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
White Sakura said:
So one can apply that for the self as well. To say: "There is no self" is nihilistic view. "There is no ultimately existing self" is what Buddha taught.

Astus wrote:
The assumption of any form of self is a mistake. If there were some sort of reality to it, it wouldn't be wrong to believe in it.

"Monks, you would do well to cling to that clinging to a doctrine of self, clinging to which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair. But do you see a clinging to a doctrine of self, clinging to which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair?"
"No, lord."
"Very good, monks. I, too, do not envision a clinging to a doctrine of self, clinging to which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair."
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html )

White Sakura said:
But what is if I turn it other way round and say: "There is a self depending on body and mind."

Astus wrote:
"Monks, whatever contemplatives or brahmans who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them."
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.047.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 21st, 2020 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
White Sakura said:
The opposite of ethernalism is here annihilationism.

Astus wrote:
That specific discourse is about the origin of suffering, whether the agent (who creates the cause of suffering) is identical to the subject (who experiences the effect: suffering) or different from it. You can take it either as referring to different births, or different moments. Saying that they are identical is eternalism, as it assumes an enduring self. Saying that they are different is annihilationism, because it assumes that the previous self has disappeared and now there is a new self. What cuts through these extremes is dependent origination, that there is no self of any sort, but rather a chain of causes and effects.

White Sakura said:
how do you define the difference between the terms "nihilism" and "annihilationism"?

Astus wrote:
It depends on one's definition of nihilism. If one equates nihilism with "nothing exists", that is likely a view not accepted by anyone, so there's usually a qualification, for instance "nothing really/ultimately exists" at least, but then it still accepts some sort of existence, and that is either a meaningful or a meaningless distinction. The Buddha was clear about what is called a self (identification with the five aggregates), and that such a self is not just delusional but also painful.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 20th, 2020 at 5:01 PM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
White Sakura said:
Then the person who asked says: "but who feels: Now I am free..I  have freed myself by means of the path. Who feels that"

Astus wrote:
'Who feels?' is the wrong question. Dependent origination is the middle view because it shows cause and effect without an agent or subject. Please consider the following teachings:

Who acts? https://suttacentral.net/sn12.17/en/bodhi; https://suttacentral.net/sn12.18/en/bodhi
Who gets old? https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/bodhi
Who experiences? https://suttacentral.net/sn12.46/en/bodhi
All exists or nothing exists? https://suttacentral.net/sn12.47/en/sujato
Dependent origination is correct investigation: https://suttacentral.net/sn12.51/en/bodhi


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 20th, 2020 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Nihilistic view
Content:
White Sakura said:
Which masters taught at what time in history of Buddhism about the nihilistic point of view?

Astus wrote:
First of all, it should be clarified what is meant by "nihilism". It is normally understood as a denial of moral values, something that is clearly a wrong view according to any Buddhist. If we understand it as a denial of taking ordinary perception as ultimately real, that is a given in Buddhism, but so it is many philosophies and religions, so it is usually not something nihilism means. What is often mistranslated as nihilism is actually annihilationism (ucchedavada), the belief that beings completely perish at death, and that is again clearly a wrong view according to any Buddhist.

White Sakura said:
In a way that the explanations of other masters were  called nihilistic?

Astus wrote:
Non-Buddhists, primarily materialists, are those who believe in the ultimate annihilation of beings at the demise of their body.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 17th, 2020 at 6:52 PM
Title: Re: Susho Itto
Content:
Astus wrote:
As you might already know of it, zazen is what they call the suññatā-samādhi and animitta-samādhi in Theravada (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujato ), and also where the Buddha taught "In what is seen there must be only what is seen", etc. (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/en/anandajoti ). It is without proliferation (nippapañca), without conceptualisation (nibbikappa/nirvikalpa), therefore without attachment and without a concept of self.
You might also want to look into what Keizan in the http://antaiji.org/en/classics/english-zazen-yojinki/ and Menzan in the https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/leaflet/heartofzen/pdf/Heart_of_Zen.pdf taught to further clarify things.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 15th, 2020 at 3:48 PM
Title: Re: Best books on general Mahayana Buddhism
Content:
joshua said:
I am interested in some books about the history of Mahayana Buddhism and a general overview of it's schools, lineages, and practices. I realize much of this information is available via the web, however I would ask for book recommendations as I quite prefer a physical book.

Astus wrote:
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=fv5cDwAAQBAJ
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=fjU6AwAAQBAJ
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=oyJjCx_tEiMC
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=cy980CH84mEC
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=8PI-WPJd4aIC
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=9ygVT2FA0h4C
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=s9KGFPr_zrQC
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=DTWZLMGFFgkC


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 11th, 2020 at 3:17 PM
Title: Re: What possible reason could there be to study or practice Buddhism if arising and ceasing do not occur?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
This 'looking into' is not a simple nor a casual matter.

Astus wrote:
That is what wisdom is for that is developed through learning, reflection, and cultivation.

"Having ascertained through scripture
And through reasoning that phenomena
Are not produced nor inherently existent,
Meditate without conceptuality."
(Illuminating the Path to Enlightenment, v 58, p 158)

Wayfarer said:
I think it means, 'seeing beyond the apparent flux and change', but that 'seeing beyond' is itself the fulfillment of the path, isn't it?

Astus wrote:
It is not a matter of seeing beyond, but rather seeing things as they are.

"The absence of an [inherently-existent] nature owing to [being reducible to mere] causes and conditions is itself their true character."
( http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/EBM_excerpts/EBM_X-16_X-06.pdf, ch 6)

Also, it's not the end of the path, but rather the beginning of cultivation with an ascertained correct view.

"Having thus meditated on suchness,
Eventually, after reaching “heat” and so forth,
The “very joyful” and the others are attained
And, before long, the enlightened state of buddhahood."
(Illuminating the Path to Enlightenment, v 59, p 158)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 11th, 2020 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: What possible reason could there be to study or practice Buddhism if arising and ceasing do not occur?
Content:
Dgj said:
Typically things are either illusions, or not. Illusion-like would usually be applied to something that seems like an illusion, but isn't. If it were an illusion, it would just be called an illusion.

Astus wrote:
"All phenomena arise in dependence. There is no phenomenon that can remain constantly. All phenomena arise from circumstances. There is no phenomenon that arises without circumstances. Any phenomenon that arises in dependence is unborn. Therefore all phenomena are unborn. To realize that all phenomena are unborn is to know how to practice the bodhisattva’s path. In this way, one attains the basis for benefiting all beings and can proceed with a compassionate outlook. With such conviction, one comes to understand that all phenomena are illusory. All phenomena are magically manifest because they are imputed. Those imputations are also utterly empty. The realization that all phenomena are empty is the attainment of the illusory absorption."
( https://read.84000.co/translation/toh130.html#UT22084-055-004-25 )

The eight similes of illusion:
"As in a dream, all the external objects perceived with the five senses are not there, but appear through delusion.
As in a magic show, things are made to appear by a temporary conjunction of causes, circumstances and connections.
As in a visual aberration, things appear to be there, yet there is nothing.
As in a mirage, things appear but are not real.
As in an echo, things can be perceived but there is nothing there, either outside or inside.
As in a city of gandharvas, there is neither a dwelling nor anyone to dwell.
As in a reflection, things appear but have no reality of their own.
As in a city created by magic, there are all sorts of appearances but they are not really there."
(The Words of My Perfect Teacher, 2.6.3, p 252)

Dgj said:
So the sublime ones accept cessation that actually is, but is like an illusion?

Astus wrote:
Not actually, but apparently. It seems that things come and go, rise and fall. But if one looks into it, one investigates it, there are no things, nor change.

Dgj said:
Further, the very phrase is stating that entities do disintegrate. So it seems fair to say that Nagarjuna held that entities disintegrate, at the very least? From there, that he held that this disintegration can be called "illusion-like" cessation?

Astus wrote:
"Those who imputes arising and disintegration
With relation to conditioned things,
They do not understand well the movement
Of the wheel of dependent origination."
( https://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/SixtyStanzas.pdf, v 18)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 8th, 2020 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: What possible reason could there be to study or practice Buddhism if arising and ceasing do not occur?
Content:
Dgj said:
Arising, duration and cessation of ultimate entities as incorrectly posited by the Sarvastivadins does not occur.

Astus wrote:
"Just as cessation is imputed
On the disintegration of an arisen entity;
So too the sublime ones accept
Cessation that is illusion-like."
( https://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/SixtyStanzas.pdf, v 7)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 8th, 2020 at 3:13 PM
Title: Re: Essential & Useful Reading on Abhidharma and Prajnaparamita/Madhyamaka
Content:
Astus wrote:
Abhidharma handbooks:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=jhJANfwlr3oC
https://books.google.hu/books?id=KEQ5PwAACAAJ
https://books.google.hu/books?id=AXQS3UsZVmQC

Abhidharma background:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=eK4PSQAACAAJ
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/dawn-abhidharma.pdf

Abhidharma & Madhyamaka:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 7th, 2020 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Jhanas and Vipassana...its all in the eyes?
Content:
Justmeagain said:
Is this still the process in Soto Zen Zazen? If so how do things like Nimitta occur if the eyes are open....or maybe it does?

Astus wrote:
Zen in general is a "unified" or rather simultaneous practice of samatha/samadhi and vipasyana/prajna, so it's not one after another. Practising with nimitta, that's a uniquely theravadin method.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 7th, 2020 at 2:38 PM
Title: Re: What possible reason could there be to study or practice Buddhism if arising and ceasing do not occur?
Content:
Dgj said:
If no arising nor ceasing occur then the twelve links are meaningless, reduced to nonsense.

Astus wrote:
It should always be kept in mind that many of the Mahayana ideas developed from or against Sarvastivada doctrine. In this case, the Sarvastivada abhidharma teachings say that production/birth (jati), duration/staying (sthiti), deterioration/death (jara), and impermanence (anityata) are characteristics (laksana) that are dharmas themselves, and dharmas are what have self-existence (svabhava), and it is the Sarvastivadin interpretation - or what its opponents, the Mahayanikas understood the Sarvastivadin teaching to be - that for instance Nagarjuna argues against when saying that arising, duration, etc., do not exist, i.e. not really, not on their own as unique entities.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 2nd, 2020 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Zen is zazen Is this true?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Good friends, the deluded speak with their mouths, but the wise practice with their minds. Furthermore, there are deluded people who empty their minds and sit in quietude without thinking of anything whatsoever, claiming that this is great. You can’t even speak to these people, because of their false views!
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 29)

The master addressed the assembly, “Good friends, what is seated meditation (zuochan)? In this teaching, there is no impediment and no hindrance. Externally, for the mind to refrain from activating thoughts with regard to all the good and bad realms is called ‘seated’ (zuo). Internally, to see the motionlessness of the self-nature is called ‘meditation’ (chan).”
(ch 4, p 45)

You can sit [in meditation] without lying down from the day you’re born,
But when you die you will lie down and not sit up.
One always has this putrid skeleton,
Why should one set such a task?
(ch 8, p 73)

Xie Jian said, “The virtuous Chan monks of the capital all say, ‘If you wish to understand the Way, you must sit in meditation and cultivate samādhi. It has never happened that anyone attained emancipation without relying on meditation.’ I wonder, what is the Dharma that you teach?”
The master said, “One is enlightened to the Way through the mind. How could it depend on sitting? A sutra says, ‘To say that the Tathāgata sits or lies down is to practice a false path. Why? Because he is without coming and without going.’ To be without birth and without extinction is the pure meditation of the Tathāgata. For the dharmas to be quiescent is the Tathāgata’s pure sitting. Ultimately there is no realization, so how could it possibly [depend on] sitting?”
(ch 9, p 79)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 25th, 2020 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Are there Chan (Zen) texts that were actually composed during the Tang dynasty?
Content:
Dgj said:
Are there any Tang Chan (Zen) texts that were written during that dynasty?

Astus wrote:
Some, but with varying degrees of editing. The Platform Sutra has already been mentioned, there are also works attributed to Bodhidharma that are early (but not as early as Bodhidharma), and there are the works of the so called Northern School, about them you can read in McRae's classic The Northern School and the Formation of Early Chʻan Buddhism. Some other notable texts:

Works from Dunhuang:
Chuan Fabao ji (傳法寶紀, c. 713)
Lengqie shizi ji (楞伽師資記, c. 712-716)
Shenhui Tanyu (神會壇語, c. 720)
Lidai Fabao Ji (歷代法寶記, c. 774-780)
Guishan Jingce (潙山警策, before 936)

Texts representative of Tang era Chan:
works of Guifeng Zongmi (780-841)
Baizhang Guanglu (百丈廣錄, early Song recompilation but assumed faithful to earlier version)
Chuanxin Fayao & Wanling Lu (傳心法要 & 宛陵錄, dated by Peixiu to 857, editing in Song but assumed faithful)
Dunwu Yaomen (頓悟要門, published in 1374 but assumed faithful to 8th c.)

For a reconstruction of the Mazu Yulu (馬祖語錄) see: The Hongzhou School of Chan Buddhism by Jinhua Jia.

In general about Tang works see:
Fathering Your Father: The Zen of Fabrication in Tang Buddhism by Alan Cole
The Zen Canon: Understanding the Classic Texts ed. by Steven Heine & Dale S. Wright

Focused on specific works:
The Mystique of Transmission: On an Early Chan History and Its Contexts by Wendi Leigh Adamek
Readings of the Platform Sutra by Morten Schlütter & Stephen F. Teiser
The Records of Mazu and the Making of Classical Chan Literature by Mario Poceski
The Linji Lu and the Creation of Chan Orthodoxy: The Development of Chan's Records of Sayings Literature by Albert Welter


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 24th, 2020 at 3:15 PM
Title: Re: Can Shikantaza be done "wrong", or is an attempt at it automatically successful?
Content:
Dgj said:
To dial it back seems to create some problems and once we're there we may as well go back to the Theravada understanding where enlightenment must be reached through practice precisely because it is not innate.

Astus wrote:
The idea of buddha-nature doesn't necessarily change anything in terms of practice, and one can still see the twofold accumulation through immeasurable aeons as the way to perfect enlightenment.

Dgj said:
In Zen, enlightenment is instantaneous and innate.

Astus wrote:
When there is talk of enlightenment it is important to look at the word used. For instance wu 悟 can simply mean understanding and puti 菩提 the initial awakening. They are the first steps on the bodhisattva path, and not buddhahood. So when there is a peculiar line from the teacher and the student suddenly understands, that is basically when something clicks and becomes clear. It's not that they're buddhas right there, or even arya bodhisattvas.

Dgj said:
Per Shen Hui practice doesn't even make any sense

Astus wrote:
Not really. Guifeng Zongmi claimed to be an heir of Heze and he clearly taught the path of sudden enlightenment, gradual practice. Later Yongming Yanshou and Bojo Jinul followed the same interpretation. You may want to look into Buswell's introduction in https://uhpress.hawaii.edu/title/numinous-awareness-is-never-dark-the-korean-buddhist-master-chinuls-excerpts-on-zen-practice/ where he summarises the matter nicely. Also, if you want to find a more detailed explanation of Zen in more standard writing - and not just short koan-style anecdotes and phrases - you should look into this part of Zen that took a different route than the Hongzhou school what became popular in the Song era and was followed by the majority of Linji and Caodong teachers.

Dgj said:
It seemed to me that Dogen had answered this paradox of practicing to reach something you already have by delineating a Zazen that is not a practice at all. And if it's not a practice, but rather is simply our innate enlightenment, how can it be done wrong?

Astus wrote:
As I take it, Dogen was more a subitist than those who advocated kanhua practice, as he followed more closely the view what one finds in the Platform Sutra where a moment of no-thought is a moment of buddhahood (see also: https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/jiabs/article/view/8591/2498 ). Or we could say he was more optimist, believing that people can simply enter no-thought (or non-thinking). Then it is only a matter of familiarisation with dropping body and mind, or as https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/practice/zazen/howto/index.html: "The essential thing in doing zazen is to awaken (https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms24.pdf) from distraction and dullness, and return to the right posture moment by moment."


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 21st, 2020 at 5:15 PM
Title: Re: Tenth Vow of Amitabha
Content:
Wayfarer said:
As I understand it, in Japanese Pure Land, there is no thought of 'cultivation' whatever. Any attempt to 'cultivate' is a self-power idea. You are reborn in Sukhavati solely by faith in other-power, that being the power of Amida's vow.

Astus wrote:
Still, even if in this life there is no progress, the Pure Land itself is where one completes the bodhisattva path.

From the http://www.jsri.jp/English/Honen/TEACHINGS/senchaku/process.html:

"The fourth and the last stage is perhaps best thought of as the stage after death, when one has succeeded in being born in the Pure Land in the West. At this fourth stage, all of the practices of the Holy Path aimed towards gaining final enlightenment that were rejected as being too difficult for people living in the age of the final Dharma are readmitted on their own terms. Since they now dwell amid the wonders of the Pure Land, people are continuously in the presence of the Buddha and hear his teachings without the distortions caused by the many disturbing passions of the present world. Now they can indeed obtain the bodhicitta, reach the stage of non-retrogression, and be assured of eventual enlightenment. Therefore, the practices of the Holy Path which were rejected as too difficult are now all reinstated and practiced in their full essence."


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 20th, 2020 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: Tenth Vow of Amitabha
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
I think it would probably depend on "what sort of body" beings in sukhavati have.

Astus wrote:
They have bodies, however, the vow is not limited to clinging to one's body, but it's used as an example to the extent of clinging.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 20th, 2020 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Tenth Vow of Amitabha
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
How does a sleeping person suddenly awaken from a dream?

Astus wrote:
Unless you're suggesting that Sukhavati is Nirvana, the simile does not apply. But if Sukhavati were Nirvana, then it raises even bigger issues, since it'd mean a buddha can turn beings into liberated ones without having them cultivate the path.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 20th, 2020 at 8:26 PM
Title: Tenth Vow of Amitabha
Content:
Astus wrote:
In the tenth vow of Amitabha it is stated that beings in Sukhavati will not arouse any clinging/desire (parigraha/貪), not even to their own bodies. It is generally believed that even ordinary beings (prthagjana) may be born there. However, how could an unenlightened one be free from clinging suddenly?

The Tenth Vow of Amitabha

sacenme bhagavaṃstasmin buddhakṣetre ye sattvāḥ pratyājāyeran, teṣāṃ kācitparigrahasaṃjñotpadyeta, antaśaḥ svaśarīre'pi, mā tāvadahamanuttarāṃ samyaksaṃbodhimabhisaṃbudhyeyam
( http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/content/59/528 )

"O Bhagavat, if in that Buddha country of mine the beings who are born there should form any idea of property, even with regard to their own body, then may I not obtain the highest perfect knowledge."
(Müller, https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe49/sbe4924.htm )

設我得佛。國中人天。若起想念貪計身者。不取正覺。
(Saṅghavarman, T360p268a9-10; http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2015/T0360_.12.0268a09:0268a10.cit )

"If, when I attain buddhahood, humans and devas in my land should give rise to thoughts of self-attachment, may I not attain perfect enlightenment."
(Inagaki, BDK ed, p 13; http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/sutra_of_immeasurable_life.html )

"After I become a Buddha, if gods in my land should imagine that they have embodied selves, I would not attain the perfect enlightenment."
(Rulu, http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra25.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 14th, 2020 at 2:51 PM
Title: Re: Zazen and Creativity(question)
Content:
Joanna54544 said:
If the goal of Zazen is to remove attachments in order to free yourself, and the goal of Zen is to practice Zazen throughout the day throughout daily activities, how do we progress with the creative process.

Astus wrote:
It depends on what you mean by zazen. The ideal practice is just sitting where body and mind are dropped, that is, there is no fixation on physical sensations, feelings, or ideas, because they are realised as ungraspable. But because that is not so easy to comprehend right at the beginning, people may initially focus on the posture and/or the breathing. So, when one watches the body/breath, everything else is irrelevant. No matter what important looking thoughts occur, the job is to return to the object of meditation, because it is through putting the attention on a single object that the mind is anchored and not moved by the bodily and mental impressions. Then this same skill of being calm and undistracted can be used at other times as well, outside of the meditation session. That's how gradually one can train and tame the mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 13th, 2020 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: What does Madhyamaka say about birth and death?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Its probably too big a question for this thread, but what would be the consequence of developing an understanding derived by haphazardly mixing Theravada and Mahayana? Are there any significant areas where confusion might arise and lead to wrong view?

Astus wrote:
Mahayana is very broad, as you are well aware, like the differences between Tibetan and East Asian schools. Theravada is theoretically more unified, but in terms of practices it is quite diverse. So, the subjects mixed matters. For instance, as Malcolm pointed out, Madhyamaka does not work so well against Theravada Abhidhamma. On the other hand, if it's about reading suttas, then probably everything you find there generally fits well with Mahayana ideas.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 13th, 2020 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: What does Madhyamaka say about birth and death?
Content:
Malcolm said:
This article is kind of irrelevant to Mahāyāna Buddhism, which is grounded in the Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma.

Astus wrote:
It touches on some differences between Sarvastivada and Theravada (mostly pages 8 & 15).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 12th, 2020 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: What does Madhyamaka say about birth and death?
Content:
Astus wrote:
On the subject of dharmas, a highly recommended article:
http://www.abhidhamma.com/Dhamma_Theory_clear.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 12th, 2020 at 7:19 PM
Title: Re: The Eye Does Not See Itself - Source?
Content:
Manjushri said:
Are you aware of other modern editions of this particular sutra?

Astus wrote:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf
http://www.buddhisttexts.org/uploads/6/3/3/1/6331706/surangama_new_translation.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 12th, 2020 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Order of teachings, five periods and the superiority of the Lotus - discussion
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
So, in order to grasp the value of the Lotus I'd like to discuss how the earlier teachings prepare us for the Lotus.

Astus wrote:
What is its value outside Tiantai and Nichiren schools? It is used as a common reference for the concepts of skilful means and the one vehicle, but even those ideas are not limited to the Lotus Sutra. I guess the Lotus Sutra's most widespread element is its presentation of Avalokitesvara.

nichiren-123 said:
a better way of classing the sutra's then let's consider that

Astus wrote:
If it's a question of historical order, then one has to consider the generally accepted modern scholarly view that whatever was actually taught by Gautama is found in the Nikayas and Agamas, and everything else is later, especially the Mahayana sutras that already presuppose a more complex state of Buddhism.
Apart from history, various schools have their own version of doctrinal classification (kyouhan/jiaopan 教判), like the Huayan, Shingon, Pure Land, and Chan schools, that naturally do not agree with the Tiantai version, a sort of rival school. For instance, Kukai put the Mahayana teachings in the following order: Yogacara, Madhyamaka, Tiantai, Huayan, and then Mantra, i.e. Shingon.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 12th, 2020 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana Sutra references to 4 stages of Hinayana
Content:
LastLegend said:
Hmm then we have to question every choice we make? Ever gone grocery shopping?

Astus wrote:
Zhiyi writes (The Essentials of Buddhist Meditation, p 117-119):

'At times when one is involved in walking, one should bring forth this thought: "For what purpose do I now wish to walk?" If it is on account of being directed by afflictions or by unwholesome or neutral matters, then one should not proceed with walking. If it is not an instance of being directed by the afflictions and if it is for the sake of a matter which produces wholesome benefits and which is in accord with the Dharma, then one should go ahead and proceed with walking.'

He repeats similar instructions for standing, sitting, lying down, engaging in actions, and speaking.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 11th, 2020 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Sutra references to 4 stages of Hinayana
Content:
LastLegend said:
If you are hungry and want to eat oatmeal instead  of a banana, is that craving?

Astus wrote:
It is a form of sensual craving.

Here is some help to decide for yourself:

"Craving (taṇhā) is focused on feeling (vedanā) and desires objects in order to experience feeling, or desires objects for personal gratification. Craving is generated ad sustained by ignorance; it is linked to personal issues - it centres around a sense of 'self'. It leads to seeking
Wholesome desire (chanda) is focused on wellbeing, on what is truly beneficial and on the quality of life; it desires truth, goodness, and virtue; it desires fulfilment and wholeness. Chanda is generated from wise reflection; it is objective - it is not bound up with a sense of 'self'; and it leads to energy, effort, and action."
(Buddhadhamma: The Laws of Nature and Their Benefits to Life by Bhikkhu P. A. Payutto, p 773-774)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 11th, 2020 at 5:54 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Sutra references to 4 stages of Hinayana
Content:
Aemilius said:
It was mentioned in a public teaching in Copenhagen in 1990's.

Astus wrote:
So it is not a teaching of the Buddha, nor a teaching in a canonical scripture, nor a teaching in a commentary or a treatise, at least as far as you are aware of its source. At the same time, it contradicts the very meaning of awakening if it's merely a temporary thing.

Aemilius said:
If there is nothing attained, no attainment nor non-attainment etc... what is there to speak about?

Astus wrote:
Craving, the very root of suffering, is based on the assumption that there is something to gain or lose. Through the study, understanding, and application of the Dharma one eventually arrives at the realisation that there is truly nothing to attain, thus severing craving. Until then, there is a lot to speak about.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 10th, 2020 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: What does Madhyamaka say about birth and death?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
Yes, but in order to understand the Dharma we must employ conceptual labels and mental fabrications.

Astus wrote:
It's not about not having concepts, but about seeing them for what they are.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 10th, 2020 at 7:36 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Sutra references to 4 stages of Hinayana
Content:
LastLegend said:
But when hanging on to the distinction of Nirvana versus samsara, and abide in Nirvana. The issue here is Buddha nature I don’t think Sravakayana believe in Buddha nature that’s empty.

Astus wrote:
The doctrine of buddha-nature is about the view that when all attachments are gone the buddha qualities manifest on their own instead of developing those qualities through accumulating merit. That way it becomes possible to attain buddhahood without going through the bodhisattva path over immeasurable aeons, hence the sudden enlightenment teaching in East Asian Mahayana and buddhahood in this body teaching in Vajrayana. At the same time, being an arhat means complete freedom from attachments, therefore with buddha-nature arhats are necessarily buddhas.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 10th, 2020 at 3:12 PM
Title: Re: What does Madhyamaka say about birth and death?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
How does it explain the apparent appearance and disappearance of each human life?

Astus wrote:
As noted by Malcolm at the beginning, all appearances (and disappearances) are understood as dependently arisen (and ceased). Dependent origination includes both the general causal nature of phenomena and the individual karmic nature of existence.

nichiren-123 said:
Now, how does one understand each human lifespan, or each waves lifespan as empty? How do you understand the true nature of a human life or the life of a wave?

Astus wrote:
That there is a wave that is a conceptual label, a mental fabrication that when viewed as a real presentation, or a representative of something real, serves as an apparently substantial object of grasping. When the thought of a wave is clung to, from that comes all sorts of other concepts, like birth and death. When the thought is recognised as a mere concept without anything in it or beyond it, there is no longer any thing that can be said to be born or can die.

'Those who imputes arising and disintegration
With relation to conditioned things,
They do not understand well the movement
Of the wheel of dependent origination.

That which has originated due to “this” and “that,”
That has not done so as its own being;
And that which has not arisen as its own being,
How can it be called “arisen”?

The tranquility derived from extinction of cause,
This is understood to be a cessation;
That which is not extinguished through its intrinsic nature,
How can that be called an “extinguishment”?

Since there is nothing that arises,
There is nothing that disintegrates;
Yet the paths of arising and disintegration
Were taught [by the Buddha] for a purpose.

By understanding arising, disintegration is understood;
By understanding disintegration, impermanence is understood;
By understanding how to engage with impermanence,
The sublime dharma is understood as well.

Those who understand the dependent origination
To be utterly devoid of arising and disintegration,
Those who have such knowledge will cross
The ocean of samsara of dogmatic views.'
( https://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/SixtyStanzas.pdf, 18-23)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 10th, 2020 at 2:41 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Sutra references to 4 stages of Hinayana
Content:
Aemilius said:
The question is "why don't you stay in it?"

Astus wrote:
If there is a state one stays in, that is a temporary thing. Nirvana is not a state, nor a temporary thing.

Aemilius said:
There is a teaching that we have all attained enlightenment millions of years ago.

Astus wrote:
Where is there such a teaching?

Aemilius said:
This esoteric aspect is rarely revealed, the theme is mentioned in the Sarvastivada Abhidharma.

Astus wrote:
The Sarvastivadins, and only them, distinguished arhats circumstantially liberated (samaya-vimukta) who started as faith-followers (śraddhānusārin) and those non‑circumstantially liberated (asamaya-vimukta) who began as Dharma-followers (dharmānusārin). Of the two only the former may retrogress. See: Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma by Bhikkhu KL Dhammjoti, 4th ed, p 463-464.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 9th, 2020 at 2:41 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Sutra references to 4 stages of Hinayana
Content:
DharmaSean said:
Are there any mind only works discussing this in depth?

Astus wrote:
I don't know what counts as "in depth" for you, but you can look into the Cheng Weishi Lun, either the translation by Wei Tat or Francis Cook (see References on the https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/three-texts-consciousness-only page, and also on https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/three-texts-consciousness-only ).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 9th, 2020 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana Sutra references to 4 stages of Hinayana
Content:
DharmaSean said:
So Master Xuanzang believed in a view or arhats akin to the Theravada?

Astus wrote:
In the sense that arhats reach nirvana, finish rebirth and the path permanently, yes.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 8th, 2020 at 6:58 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Sutra references to 4 stages of Hinayana
Content:
DharmaSean said:
I am trying to understand why the Mahayana says that arhatship is not the end of the path.

Astus wrote:
Mahayana schools practically reinterpreted the meaning of what it is to be an arhat, reduced it to being stuck in a samadhi of nothingness, and that's why they are not finished yet, but will continue on the path to buddhahood once somehow they're awakened from their dreamless slumber by the buddhas. That's also how the sravaka path turned into basically a misroute on the path to enlightenment, that it is seen as an attachment to a mistaken view of emptiness, an extreme view of annihilation. So actually the arhatship in the Ekayana view (i.e. that there is only one final liberation of buddhahood) is not the same as in the Triyana view what the Yogacara system of Xuanzang and Theravada believes in.
There is another element as well, that with buddha-nature one needs merely to remove obscurations and it's not necessary to accumulate merit to develop the buddha qualities, so in order to avoid the charge that it is no different from the sravakayana, arhats are redefined as annihilationists.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 8th, 2020 at 2:16 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Sutra references to 4 stages of Hinayana
Content:
DharmaSean said:
Can you prove any link to the Arthavinishcaya sutra?

Astus wrote:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Arthaviniscaya/index.htm


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 7th, 2020 at 4:33 PM
Title: Re: Zazen for a few
Content:
mansurhirbi87 said:
What would you answer to the opinion that zazen is not to everyone, just for a few ? With it could be said that it is almost elitist

Astus wrote:
'If you can comfortably sit upright and remain insouciant, without being bound by anything — only that is called liberation. Make every effort! Make every effort! Of the thousands or tens of thousands of people in this school, only three or five of them have gotten it.'
(Huangbo Xiyun in The Wanling Record, in A Bird in Flight Leaves No Trace, 2.44)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 1st, 2020 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: Mind and it's objects
Content:
SteRo said:
In Prajnaparamita 'pure' is applied for the aggregates, sense fields, constituents, dependently originated phenomena, emptinesses, paths of seeing, paths of meditation, paths of no-more-learning.

Astus wrote:
When you say "In Prajnaparamita", what exactly do you mean, what sutra or shastra? Also, if all of those are pure, that would mean all dharmas are pure, and there is nothing to call impure, so that way the whole distinction loses its meaning.

SteRo said:
Why are these objects called 'pure'? Because these are antidots which upon application can remove ignorance, at least partially, and thus entail 'purification' of the subject, i.e. the subject being purified of defilements which then entails seeing the purity of the objects.

Astus wrote:
There is no subject, or anything, to be named apart from all the dharmas (skandhas, ayatanas, dhatus, asamskrtas), so your explanation above and what follows it makes no sense to me.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 1st, 2020 at 2:49 PM
Title: Re: Mind and it's objects
Content:
SteRo said:
The 'undefiled' is also called 'pure'. What is purity?
The_Large_Sutra_On_Perfect_Wisdom said:
The Lord: And the Unproduced, the Unmanifested, the Uneffected—that is purity.

Astus wrote:
That would be what Yogacara calls the pure element (anasravadhatu). The distinction between defiled (sasrava) and undefiled (anasrava) dharmas is a bit different.

4. The dharmas are impure, "in a relationship with the defilements," or pure,"with no relationship to the defilements." Conditioned dharmas, with the exception of the Path, are impure. They are impure because the defilements adhere to them.
5a-b. The undefiled truth of the Path and the three unconditioned things are pure.
(AKB I.4-5a-b, tr Pruden, vol 1, p 58-59)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 1st, 2020 at 2:38 PM
Title: Re: Mind and it's objects
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I’m always baffled by the use of ‘things’ or ‘objects’ in this context. I wouldn’t have thought that ‘purity’ or ‘pure awareness’ was ‘an object’ except for in the metaphorical sense. I mean, I can understand an object as an object - tools, utensils, foodstuffs, furniture, even mountains and planets. But I can’t understand ‘the objects of higher knowledge’ as objects. Perhaps someone can help me understand if I have misunderstood something.

Astus wrote:
Mind (knower) always must have an object (known), and there is no knower without a known, nor known without a knower, as they mutually depend on each other.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 31st, 2020 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Mind and it's objects
Content:
Grigoris said:
"A person born in the realm of desire can with the mental organ of that realm also know undefiled things (anasravadbarma) and those pertaining to each of the three realms (traidbatuka)."

Asanga, Abhidarmasamuccaya, p26

Is this saying that this very defiled mind can know liberation?

Astus wrote:
It is saying that one can gain the divine eye and attain all the levels of absorption while at the same time being a human. The undefiled things are those that belong to the path of liberation, and they are also accessible as humans.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 30th, 2020 at 2:36 PM
Title: Re: Alan Watts
Content:
JoaoRodrigues said:
I'd like, if you'd like to spend that time, to have more examples. I didn't came here for an Alan's public judgment, even so, I accept it, I came here for an insight on what he believes / wrote about compared with the traditional or new views of zen-buddhism.

Astus wrote:
I agree, character judgement is not the way to go.

'The most important thing in recognizing masters is to be able to judge whether they have a correct view of Buddhadharma. If their views of the Dharma are correct, then even if their behavior reveals some weaknesses, they should not be considered false masters. On the other hand, if teachers do not have a correct view of the Dharma, they cannot be considered authentic or virtuous masters.
Of course, this presupposes that the person making the judgment has some understanding of correct Dharma. Without an understanding of the Dharma, there is no way a practitioner can tell if a teacher is genuine or false.'
(Ven. Sheng-yen, in Zen WIsdom, ch 1. q 3)

You should probably try to cite or present Watts' own views on specific topics, and then have a discussion on that.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 12th, 2020 at 5:50 PM
Title: Re: How many hours of meditation do Monks do per day?
Content:
2ndchance said:
How many hours of meditation do Monks do per day?
Which hours during the day and night do they usually meditate?

Astus wrote:
Daily pattern of monastic activities:
(A Treatise on Letting Zen Flourish, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 170)

The Time of Lighting at twilight, when monks gather at the Buddha hall to offer incense and worship;
The Time of Being in Calmness [9:00–11:00 P.M.], for dhyana practice;
The Third Watch [11:00 P.M.–1:00 A.M.], for sleep;
The Fourth Watch [1:00–3:00 A.M.], for sleep;
The Fifth Watch [3:00–5:00 A.M.], for dhyana practice;
The Time of the Hare [5:00–7:00 A.M.], same as twilight;
Daybreak, for taking gruel;
The Time of the Dragon [7:00–9:00 A.M.], for reading scriptures, studying, and listening to lectures by elder monks;
The Time of Yu (Gu) [9:00–11:00 A.M.], for dhyana practice;
The Time of the Horse [12:00 P.M.], for taking a meal;
The Time of the Sheep [1:00–3:00 P.M.], for bathing and [attending to other personal matters];
The Time of the Monkey [3:00–5:00 P.M.], for dhyana practice;
The Time of the Rooster [5:00–7:00 P.M.], for relaxation, released from work.

Thiền Viện Diệu Nhân daily schedule
( https://dieunhan.weebly.com/english.html )

3:45 AM Wake Up
4:00-6:00 Sitting Meditation
6:30 Exercise
7:15 Breakfast
8:30-10:30 Chores
11:30 Lunch
1:00 PM Afternoon Rest
2:00 Wake Up
2:30-3:40 Dharma Study
4:30 Refreshment
5:45 Chanting
6:30-8:00 Sitting Meditation
9:30 Lights Out

Here is what a typical day in Plum Village might look like
( https://plumvillage.org/retreats/visiting-us/sample-schedule/ )

5:00am: Wake Up Bell
6:00am: Sitting Meditation
(followed by Sutra Reading / Touching the Earth / Slow Walking Meditation)
7:30am: Breakfast
9am: Dharma Talk / Class / Presentation / Working Meditation
11:30am: Walking meditation (outdoors)
12:30pm: Lunch
1:30pm: Rest / Optional Guided Relaxation
3pm: Service Meditation
6pm: Light dinner
8pm: Dharma Discussion, Personal study time, Sitting Meditation or other collective practice
9.30pm: Noble Silence begins
10pm: Lights out

Regular Working Days in Antaiji
( https://antaiji.org/en/schedule/ )

4am to 6:10am 	Zazen
6:10am 	Breakfest
6:40am 	Cleaning
After cleaning 	Help in the kitchen
7:30am to noon 	Samu (work)
12:00 noon 	Lunch
after lunch 	Samu (work), shower, help in the kitchen
5:00pm 	Dinner
5:20pm 	Dish washing
5:30pm 	Tea meeting
6pm to 8pm 	Zazen
After 8pm 	Free time (be quiet after 9pm)

Zen River Temple - Regular Daily Schedule
( https://www.zenrivertemple.org/programme/ )

Saturday–Wednesday:

04:55 Wake up
05:30 Zazen
07:30 Morning Service
08:00 Breakfast (oryoki)
09:30 Samu
12:50 Noon service
13:00 Lunch
14:00 Rest
16:30-17:30 Sat, Sutra Reading Class; Sun, Zazen; Mon, Study period; Tue, Right Speech Class; Wed: Zazen
18:00 Supper
19:30 Zazen
21:15 Four Vows
21:45 Lights out

Sunday: 11:30 Study class / 19:00 Public Service
Monday: 19:30 River of Zen continuation class
Tuesday: 16:30 Right Speech class / 19:30 Introductory class
Wednesday: 19:30 Zazen; Teisho


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 8th, 2020 at 5:09 PM
Title: Re: On the role of "Buddhist philosophy" in Buddhism. Packaging and product.
Content:
Viach said:
Buddhism is a purely practical teaching.

Astus wrote:
That itself is already a philosophical stance, a basis you attempt to argue for, again, a very philosophical approach. You might want a short review of https://www.philosophybasics.com/general_whatis.html

Viach said:
Philosophy cannot be practical (as an instrument for achieving enlightenment), only yoga (a set of specific practices) can be practical.

Astus wrote:
Practice has to be based on right view, and practice itself brings one to confirming in experience the validity of right view, hence one begins from wisdom to end at wisdom.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharma
Content:
dolphin_color said:
Is it doctrine-less, or a bundle of doctrines?

Astus wrote:
There are several texts within the Abhidharma-pitaka, and there are more then one such collections.

dolphin_color said:
Can this be answered with respect to the Abhidharmakośakārikā, and commentaries on it?

Astus wrote:
That depends on how one interprets the Kosha about svabhava (I.18) and paramartha (VI.4), and of course what one understands by Nagarjuna's refutation of svabhava and that only emptiness is paramartha. For instance, apart from the three unconditioned ones, all dharmas are understood to be impermanent, therefore they cannot be qualified by saying that svabhava is necessarily permanent.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 6:22 PM
Title: Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra
Content:
LastLegend said:
Like how do you call ‘I’ to others without attachment?

Astus wrote:
It's merely a word. When one believes that the word signifies a real entity, that is the mistaken belief in a self.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 6:12 PM
Title: Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra
Content:
LastLegend said:
How do you reconcile addressing yourself ‘I’ to other people?

Astus wrote:
Please elaborate. What is there to reconcile?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 6:11 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharma
Content:
dolphin_color said:
Is Abhidharma in conflict with Madhyamaka? Does it assume that phenomena exist inherently?

Astus wrote:
Abhidharma is not a single doctrine. What needs to be looked at is whether what you call "Abhidharma" upholds the same definition of inherent existence that is refuted by Nagarjuna.

For the Sarvastivadin version, see Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma by Venerable Professor K.L. Dhammajoti, chapter 3.5.
For the Theravadin version, see https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh412_Karunadasa_Dhamma-Theory--Philosophical-Cornerstone-of-Abhidhamma.pdf by Y. Karunadasa


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 5:18 PM
Title: Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra
Content:
Aemilius said:
....highest surpassing purity of emptiness and make it a habitat,

smcj said:
The idea that emptiness is not just how phenomena abide, but that there’s something beyond appearances is suggestive of Shentong.

Astus wrote:
That is a nice mistranslation of ‘parisuddhaṃ paramānuttaraṃ suññataṃ upasampajja viharanti’.

Nanamoli & Bodhi:
'enter upon and abide in pure, supreme, unsurpassed voidness'

Sujato:
'enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness'

Emptiness is practically a synonym for no-self, so that abiding in emptiness means not conceiving anything as 'I am that' or 'that is mine'.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: Turning the Light Around?
Content:
Injrabodi said:
Samatha and Vipassana are two wings of the meditative bird and both are required in order to obtain high states of absorption, correct?

Astus wrote:
The various levels of absorption (jhana) are attained through samatha. Vipassana is the insight that no matter what is attained, it's always unstable and temporary.

Injrabodi said:
How could the presence or absence of thoughts ever obscure the essential nature?

Astus wrote:
There is no essential nature to be obscured or remain unobscured.

Injrabodi said:
I wasn't talking about sitting mindlessly, I was talking about sitting filled with awareness yet not focusing it on any one point. Like the shikantaza of Zen.

Astus wrote:
Of one is aware of things, there is attention focused on things, even if for only a short while. Shikantaza is not about maintaining any specific state, but about freedom from identification with any state.

Injrabodi said:
one still does have to climb the ladder through the other realms by means of vipassana and shamatha to discover it if I recall correctly.

Astus wrote:
The levels of absorption and the realms of samsara are not ladders. Some level of tranquillity (samatha) is required, but otherwise it is through insight (vipassana) that one eventually relinquishes clinging through realising that there is no reliable thing anywhere.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: Turning the Light Around?
Content:
Injrabodi said:
concentrating the mind leads to liberation are Theravada Buddhism

Astus wrote:
Not so. Vipassana is necessary for liberation.

Injrabodi said:
So how exactly does one turn the light around?

Astus wrote:
It (囘光返照) is simply an expression for self-reflection, or introspection. It means not chasing a sensory object but reflecting on what is happening in one's mind, with the main focus on the universal characteristics of e.g. impermanence, and emptiness. As for any detailed method, look at the various techniques of insight meditation.

Injrabodi said:
Is the key here to sit in nonmeditation, keeping the mind free of all external entangling objects, until a moment of satori strikes?

Astus wrote:
Insight is not a miracle that happens out of nowhere but something one has to work on. To sit mindlessly results in simply a mindless state, not liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Nalanda
Content:
Astus wrote:
Xuanzang's records, translated by Li Rongxi in 1996, are available at BDK: https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/great-tang-dynasty-record-western-regions

Yijing (635–713) visited Nalanda, and his records are also available: https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/buddhist-monastic-traditions-southern-asia.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Which Nalanda pandit?
Content:
Manjushri said:
If I may ask, is this work comprised of advice and counseling to a King? Or is it an altogether different work?

Astus wrote:
Yes, it is addressed to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautamiputra_Satakarni.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 25th, 2020 at 4:19 PM
Title: Re: Which Nalanda pandit?
Content:
dolphin_color said:
I'm looking for a starting point that is relatively accessible.

Astus wrote:
Nāgārjuna's Suhṛllekha (Letter to/from a Friend) is a good start, and translations are available from both Chinese and Tibetan. Next you may look into his longer work Ratnāvalī (Precious Garland / Strand of Dharma Jewels). Aryadeva's 400 verses, Chandrakirti's commentary on it (Four Illusions), and Shantideva's Bodhicaryavatara are also quite readable and nice introductory materials.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 24th, 2020 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions
Content:
SteRo said:
there arises the necessity that those teacher say something to students

Astus wrote:
'The roots of delusion are deep. They’re difficult to cut off and uproot. So [the Buddha] established expedient means to grab your attention. These are like showing yellow leaves to a crying child, who imagines they’re gold and thus stops crying. You act as though you’re in a shop where someone sells a hundred goods made from gold and jade, but you’re trying to weigh each item. So you say that Shitou has a real gold shop? Well in my shop there’s a wide range of goods! If someone comes looking for mouse turds then I give him some. If someone comes looking for real gold then I give it to him.'
(Yangshan Huiji, in Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 187)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 23rd, 2020 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
However, aren't in zen koans used to "check" progress during talks with the teacher?

Astus wrote:
The Japanese Rinzai school has various levels in koan training, yes.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 22nd, 2020 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Progress of Insight in Zen Traditions
Content:
Astus wrote:
Huineng distinguished only between enlightened and unenlightened:

'With a preceding moment of deluded thought, one was an ordinary person, but with a succeeding moment of enlightened thought, one is a buddha. To be attached to one’s sensory realms in a preceding moment of thought is affliction, but to transcend the realms in a succeeding moment of thought is bodhi.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 30)

Baizhang Huaihai spoke of three stages:

'If one no longer loves or grasps, and yet abides in not loving or grasping and considers it correct, this is the elementary good; this is abiding in the subdued mind. This is a disciple; he is one who is fond of the raft and will not give it up. This is the way of the two vehicles. This is a result of meditation.
Once you do not grasp any more, and yet do not dwell in nonattachment either, this is the intermediate good. This is the half-word teaching. This is still the formless realm; though you avoid falling into the way of the two vehicles, and avoid falling into the ways of demons, this is still a meditation sickness. This is the bondage of bodhisattvas.
Once you no longer dwell in nonattachment, and do not even make an understanding of not dwelling either, this is the final good; this is the full-word teaching. You avoid falling into the formless realm, avoid falling into meditation sickness, avoid falling into the way of bodhisattvas, and avoid falling into the state of the king of demons.'
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 30-31)

Dogen did not differentiate stages:

'The view that practice and realization are not one is skewed outside of the Way. In the Buddha Dharma practice and realization are one and the same. This is the practise of realization, and so from the beginning practice is the whole body of original Awakening.'
( https://wwzc.org/sites/default/files/Bendowa-book.pdf, p 13)

Shengyan taught about three stages:

Stage 1:
To balance the development of body and mind in order to attain mental and physical health. Various methods of physical exercise for walking, standing, sitting, and reclining are used.

Stage 2:
From the sense of the small "I" to the large "I." When you practice the method of cultivation taught by your teacher, for example, huatou or silent illumination, you will enlarge the sphere of the outlook of the small "I" until it coincides with time and space. The small "I" merges into the entire universe, forming a unity.

Stage 3:
From the large "I" to no "I." Chan is inconceivable. It is neither a concept nor a feeling. Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonize with Chan.
( https://www.dharmadrum.org/content/chan_garden/chan_garden3.aspx?sn=48; see more https://www.westernchanfellowship.org/dharma/dharma-library/dharma-article/1977/what-is-chan/ )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 21st, 2020 at 6:31 PM
Title: Re: The Platform Sutra on Pure Land practices.
Content:
mairuwen said:
1. The relation between Pure Land and Chan.

Astus wrote:
Very harmonious, to the extent that it seems pointless to call them separate schools. It depends very much on the individual, how much one works on results in this life, but in the end everyone aims to be born in Sukhavati. One exception here might be those following the teachings of Yinshun and Shengyan, as they emphasise the traditional bodhisattva path and say that the Pure Land puts a delay on one's path. But there seems to be no teacher for the last couple of centuries who actually believed buddhahood in this life was a possibility, hence the only sensible choice is Amitabha.

mairuwen said:
2. The extent to which supernatural elements can be seen as a kind of skillful means.

Astus wrote:
Or it is a skilful means to talk of buddhas and bodhisattvas as representations of ideas. What to watch out for is conceit about one's view and thinking that those who think differently are not so smart.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 4:21 PM
Title: Re: newcomer question
Content:
laymedowntosleep17 said:
Does that sound like Zen practice might be a good fit for me?

Astus wrote:
Zen is not a single method or doctrine, although all that can be called Zen operates within the framework of Mahayana Buddhism.

You might like the teachings of Daehaeng who emphasised entrusting everything to one's foundation she called Juingong.

Here's a short talk: https://tricycle.org/magazine/thinking-big/.

More: http://www.hanmaum.org/eng/
And especially: https://wakeupandlaugh.com/

"The essence of practicing kwan is to entrust everything to Juingong with the firm belief that only Juingong can solve one's problems, including those that one faces in everyday life, and can awaken one from the delusions that originate within. Also, practicing kwan means taming one's mind, which is being dragged outwardly, by directing it inwardly. Directing one's mind inwardly means being one with Juingong and, at the same time, killing one's sense of ego. The most important matter is that one's mind should not be dragged outwardly. No matter what kind of problem one faces, only when one brings the problem into one"s mind and looks at it through the foundation of Mind, can one perceive the problem clearly without any bias. To drag one"s mind outwardly separates one from others; to direct one's mind inwardly is the way to become one with everything. Even while worshipping Buddha, one has to venerate Buddha within one"s mind, and one has to bow to that place where Buddha and I are not separate."
(from https://www.scribd.com/document/142055126/Teachings-of-Daehaeng-Sunim )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 15th, 2020 at 4:54 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land mystycism
Content:
Hammerheart said:
Perhaps my Zen background also plays some role in all of that, but I am most certain that what I am looking for is some sort of mystical union with Infinite Light and I don't really feel that there is much emphasis on that aspect in Jodo Shu and Shinshu.

Astus wrote:
You might consider schools beyond Jodoshu and Shinshu. It is the exclusive other-power aspect of those schools that makes them stand out, while practically everyone else has practices of the path of sages where realisation in this life is aimed at.

Some materials you might want to check out:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/pureland.pdf
https://archive.org/details/PureLandPureMind/page/n3/mode/2up
http://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/EN101.pdf
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/monkeym.pdf
http://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/EN084.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 5:58 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
smcj said:
The Mahayana references the Shravakayana as foundational.

Astus wrote:
Because shravakas learn from buddhas, the mahayana is actually called foundational, as that's how buddhas arise.

smcj said:
The Shravakayana references the Mahayana as heretical.

Astus wrote:
Does it? There probably are some, but not counting some modern Theravadins, where are those references?

smcj said:
This is NOT a chicken and egg question.

Astus wrote:
Of course, https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=519618#p519618, those early Gandhara texts themselves show how the Prajnaparamita sutras required a unique development in (likely) Sarvastivadin abhidharma in order to formulate their own doctrine of emptiness.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Gampopa said:
Geshe believes that the nature of the body of the actual perfect, complete Buddha is Dharmakaya. Dharmakaya is the exhaustion of all mistakes, or just a return to the inherent nature. But these are just labels. In reality, Dharmakaya is unborn, free from elaboration. The Ornament of Mahayana Sutra says:
Liberation is just the exhaustion of confusion.
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 285)

Traleg Kyabgon said:
Dharmakaya as a state is not an entity; it is not a thing. It is unconditional, and it is permanent. This is why it is said that dharmakaya is not a product of causes and conditions. Nevertheless, when the dharmakaya is described as permanent, this does not mean that there is an entity that endures forever. The dharmakaya is not an entity; it is nothing and cannot be said to be permanent in this way. It is permanent in the same sense as the sky can be said to be permanent. The sky is permanent because it is unconditional; it has never arisen and therefore cannot cease to exist.
(The Essence of Buddhism, p 125-126)

Nagarjuna said:
But one who has taken up a mass of beliefs, such as that the Tathāgata exists,
so conceptualizing, that person will also imagine that [the Tathāgata] does not exist when extinguished.
And the thought does not hold, with reference to this (Tathāgata) who is intrinsically empty,
that the Buddha either exists or does not exist after cessation.
Those who hypostatize the Buddha, who is beyond hypostatization and unwavering,
they all, deceived by hypostatization, fail to see the Tathāgata.
(Mulamadhyamakakarika 22.13-15, tr Siderits)

Mahāsi Sayādaw said:
In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.
With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age,disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow,lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds.
( http://www.aimwell.org/On%20the%20Nature%20of%20Nibbana.pdf )

Ajahn Payutto said:
An inevitable question that arises in the discussion of Nibbāna is: ‘What happens to an arahant after death?’ or: ‘Does a person who has realized Nibbāna exist after death or not?’ In truth, this question is centred around self-view: the devotion to self is acting as a catalyst in posing the question. This attachment to self or to the label of self (attavādupādāna) is firmly embedded in the hearts of unenlightened people, supported by the thirst for being (bhava-taṇhā) and based on ignorance (avijjā). The Buddha did not encourage debating this question if one has not eliminated ignorance and craving. He encouraged knowledge through application rather than conjecture.

No matter how one responds to these inquiries, the latent root attachment to self inevitably leads to a biased understanding. The questioner will incline towards a wrong view of Nibbāna as either an enduring self or an eradication of self. It is easy for annihilationists to view Nibbāna as extinction, because Buddhism emphasizes disentangling from the widespread belief in eternalism. As for eternalists, when their idea of self is invalidated, they search for a substitute to compensate for the sense of void or to restore the idea of a stable self. When they encounter a teaching that advocates uprooting the fixed belief in self, it can seem to them that the self vanishes. They may then seize Nibbāna as a haven for the self or equate Nibbāna as eternal life or the Promised Land. Many esteemed and wise individuals who are free from almost all forms of attachment get caught in these views. The escape from this net leads to complete liberation. The Buddhist teachings admit that such freedom is extremely difficult to achieve and refer to this subtle attachment to views as ‘the Brahma-ensnaring web’ (brahma-jāla): an entanglement for the virtuous and wise.

Nibbāna and the practice for Nibbāna have nothing to do with destroying the self because there is no self to destroy. It is the attachment to the concepts of self that must be destroyed. One must remove the attachment to self-assertions, self-views and self-perceptions. Nibbāna is the end of these misunderstandings and the end of the suffering caused by attachment. When the yearning for self ceases, all theories of self automatically lose their significance. When the attachment to self is uprooted, things will be seen as they truly are; there is no need for further speculation about self. When the desire which gives rise to self ceases, the matter of self vanishes of its own accord. Nibbāna is the cessation of suffering, not the cessation of self, since there is no self that will cease. Reflect on the Buddha’s words: ‘I teach only suffering and the end of suffering.’ In order to shift the emphasis from the preoccupation with Nibbāna and philosophical debate, the Buddha usually referred to Nibbāna in the context of practical application or the related benefits for everyday life, as demonstrated in passages of the Tipiṭaka.
( https://www.buddhistteachings.org/nibbana-points-of-controversy )

Bhikkhu K. Ñāṇananda said:
Because Nibbāna is said to be something realizable, some are of the opinion that nothing should be predicated about it. What is the reason for this special emphasis on its realizability? It is to bring into sharp relief the point of divergence, since the Buddha taught a way of realizing here and now something that in other religions was considered impossible.
What was it that they regarded impossible to be realized? The cessation of existence, or bhavanirodha. How can one be certain here and now that this existence has ceased? This might sometimes appear as a big puzzle. But all the same, the arahant experiences the cessation of existence as a realization. That is why he even gives expression to it as: Bhavanirodho Nibbānaṃ, (AN 10.7) "cessation of existence is Nibbāna".
It comes about by this extinction of influxes. The very existence of 'existence' is especially due to the flowing in of influxes of existence. What is called 'existence' is not the apparent process of existing visible to others. It is something that pertains to one's own mental continuum.
( https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Mind-Stilled_HTML.htm#Mindstilled05 )

Nibbāna has been defined as the cessation of existence. (e.g. SN 12.68) The Buddha says that when he is preaching about the cessation of existence, some people, particularly the brahmins who cling to a soul theory, bring up the charge of nihilism against him. (MN 22) Not only those brahmins and heretics believing in a soul theory, but even some Buddhist scholars are scared of the term bhavanirodha, fearing that it leads to a nihilistic interpretation of Nibbāna. That is why they try to mystify Nibbāna in various ways. What is the secret behind this attitude? It is simply the lack of a clear understanding of the unique philosophy made known by the Buddha.
( https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Mind-Stilled_HTML.htm#Mindstilled08 )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
heart said:
There are no proof that Mahayana is an "historical development" any longer since the discovery of the Gandhara texts. Prajnaparamita and Mahaparanirvana sutras are among the oldest Buddhist text we have.

Astus wrote:
'The fact that Mahāyāna texts taught the emptiness of dharmas may not therefore signify that this is a typically or exclusively Mahāyāna position, but it does emphasise the dependence of much of Mahāyāna literature on developments that had begun in a small corner of north-western India.'
...
'The special point to be emphasised is that the ‘Perfection of Wisdom’, which is the subject matter of the Aṣṭasāhasrikā Prajñāpāramitā in its surviving Sanskrit version, only makes sense against the background of the overhaul of Buddhist scholasticism that had taken place in Greater Gandhāra during the last centuries preceding the Common Era. It was in Greater Gandhāra, during this period, that Buddhist scholasticism developed an ontology centred on the lists of dharmas that had been preserved.'
( https://serval.unil.ch/resource/serval:BIB_ADB8A4E3744C.P001/REF.pdf by J. Bronkhorst)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 5:31 AM
Title: Re: On being fearful of Shikantaza
Content:
Zafutales said:
Hongzhi and Dogen = .....just sit no analysis required, anything other than this is chasing your own shadow
Tsongkhapa and Nargajuna = ....a stone can just sit and not think....we must use our conceptual minds to great use

Astus wrote:
Just sitting is a matter of not grasping at thoughts, and that itself is based on the understanding that clinging to concepts is the basis of samsara.
Analysis is used to assist one letting go of thoughts and thus free one from clinging to concepts.
They are not so different, merely various approaches to match the needs of various beings.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
No, that is false, since external phenomena are also afflicted or conducive to generating affliction, and they also are suffering, for example, the third kind of suffering, the suffering of the compounded, which has nothing to do with sensation or experience.

Astus wrote:
How can a car that nobody even thinks of, much less sees or touches, be afflicted or generating affliction?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
No, apparent objects do not exist merely because we conceive them; for example, your car does not disappear when you walk into your house. It is still there in the morning when you want to drive to work.

Astus wrote:
What matters is the subjective experience, as that is where all the defilements and sufferings occur.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Of course appearances are mind, but not apparent objects.

Astus wrote:
If by apparent objects you mean when one conceives things in terms of perceiver and perceived, then there is no disagreement.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
What is the difference between this and yogacāra?

Astus wrote:
Not much really, I just didn't want to complicate things with that, instead keeping it to the "appearances are mind" theme from Mahamudra.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
You seem to be using “experience” in place of “direct perception”.

Astus wrote:
The point of using the word https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=518930#p518930 was to signify the fundamental frame where everything appears without separation to subject and object, thus putting away the concept of a knower mind and known entity and replacing them with a single unit that already has awareness and appearance inseparably. If the term direct perception sounds to me too specific, but that's a terminological matter.

Malcolm said:
For example, a taste of sweet is not an experience of sweet until it is categorized as such. Example, if you first place a bit of an herb called gymnena on your tongue, it blocks the sense receptors for tasting sweet, so even you place sugar on the tongue, you will not experience a sweet taste.

Astus wrote:
Before one recognises a taste as sweet, what do you call that? Not being able to categorise a taste (e.g. a new spice) and not tasting anything at all seem two different cases.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 6:18 PM
Title: Re: Huayen practice
Content:
dolphin_color said:
Are there examples of specific meditation or recitation instructions in the tradition?

Astus wrote:
Entry Into the Inconceivable: An Introduction to Hua-yen Buddhism by Thomas Cleary contains a couple of meditation manuals.
The Buddhist Teaching of Totality: The Philosophy of Hwa Yen Buddhism by Garma C C Chang also has a translation of Dushun's manual.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 4:47 PM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka view distillation
Content:
Rick said:
All phenomena are empty.

Astus wrote:
The first difficulty comes from understanding "all", what that all actually signifies. Then one can attempt to define what is a phenomenon. Or the other way around, first clarify what a phenomenon is, then what all of them are. Next there should be a definition of being empty, and finally what is the relationship between a phenomenon and it being empty.
Basing oneself on those four words there are so many ways to go astray.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 4:22 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
according your reasoning, experiences are also merely inferred, since they are not directly perceived.

Astus wrote:
Experience is what appears presently, while interpreting, categorising, processing, and other cognitive workings have as their object various levels of abstractions (starting with direct connection), but even those fabrications are experiences themselves.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 6:30 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Astus wrote:
'The main point for us is to learn from all this, and the best presentation that is given is by Milarepa. Milarepa defines the cognition of a Buddha in a very simple way. He says that the pure jnana, the cognition of a Buddha is not something very far off or foreign, but it is the mind in its immediacy. It is the mind before it has been altered in any way, before it has been manipulated or changed. As said previously, when the mind is in its own nature it is not agitated by thoughts, our own fabricated thoughts do not modify the mind. Once the mind is agitated and modified, it loses control over itself and becomes over-powered and determined by negative factors. Normally and presently, we do not see the true form and state of our mind and that is why we cannot let it be as it is; we cannot allow it to be in control of itself and to be its own master. However, there is no need to improve the mind or to make it better and there is no need to remove anything from it; we just need to let it be what it is, this original form of mind, cognition or awareness. In fact, there is little need to say anything about it because whatever description we give is irrelevant because mind is nothing that can be labeled. Whatever we say will be a misassumption of the mind, it will be going into extremes either in terms of existence or in terms of non-existence. Really, the true state of the mind is beyond the sphere of thoughts and the intellect. But we use language to communicate and designate it, calling it "mind" or "jnana." In fact, this mind can only be understood through directly seeing its own nature, what it is in itself.'
(Je Gampopa's The Jewel Ornament of Liberation: The Wish-fulfilling Gem of the Noble Teachings - Commentary by The Vererable Khabje Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, p 312-313)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 6:00 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Relatively speaking, your assertion is fallacious because it proposes that events arise from themselves. For example, if you take a stick and jab it into your eye, no inference or abstraction at all is required to understand that the stick making contact with your eye caused your experience of pain.

Astus wrote:
Seeing the relationship between events is inference, so to learn the connection between them requires abstraction, and it is not visible directly in the events themselves. The causes and conditions for events are known by inference, not by experience, that's why taking experience as the basis is preferable. Furthermore, the veracity of inference is validated by experience, plus inference itself is a form of experience. So, unless there is a way to know things before they are known (apart from extrapolation), there are only experienced events and whatever sense we try to make of them.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Virgo said:
did you learn this from a Buddhist teacher?  If so, which one?

Astus wrote:
Not specifically.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The point being, without contact there is no sensation. There is no way one can get around this.

Astus wrote:
Contact requires the preceding existence of entities, but neither the preceding entities, nor the contact itself is ever experienced. The assumption of both the preceding entities and their contact is based on how interaction between physical objects is commonly imagined, hence calling it the etic or observational perspective. But if we begin from the subjective point of view as experience occurs, then both preceding entities and their contact is derived or abstracted from experience, and not that experience is produced by contact.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 6:52 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
This is what is called 'panpsychism'.

Astus wrote:
Not so. What I mean by no need for a mind as phenomena themselves can be understood as experiences is not about attributing independent objects with a mind of their own, nor saying that there are entities saturated by a single mind.

Wayfarer said:
'the eye can't see itself, hand can't grasp itself' etc.

Astus wrote:
One classic source of argument against self-perception:

'The Guardian of the World himself has said
That mind cannot be seen by mind.
In just the same way, he has said,
The sword’s edge cannot cut the sword.'
(Bodhicaryavatara 9.17-18, tr Padmakara)

Mipham's commentary (tr Padmakara):

'But if the mind itself is the perceived illusory object, what object is seen by what subject? Since the two are identical, there can be no seeing. How so? As Lord Buddha, the guardian of the three worlds, has said, the mind cannot see the mind. A sword’s edge cannot cut itself; a fingertip cannot touch itself; an acrobat cannot climb onto his own shoulders. In just the same way, the mind cannot see the mind. It is also written in the Ratnacūḍaparipṛcchā-sūtra: “So it is. The sword’s edge cannot cut the sword’s edge and the fingertip cannot touch the fingertip. Likewise, the mind cannot see itself.” The crucial point of this passage is that, as long as the mind is established as truly existent, it is partless and one; and this undermines the notion that it can be established as twofold: a seen object and a seeing subject. Accordingly, if it appears as an object, it cannot be a subject. And if it does not appear as an object, it cannot be apprehended. Therefore to claim, in ultimate terms, that the mind is selfknowing is mere verbiage; it has no truth value.'


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 6:31 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
But, inferentially speaking, subject and object makes infinitely more sense: contact --> sensation --> etc. Cannot have contact without a pair.

Astus wrote:
It makes more sense as long as the world is conceived from an etic perspective, but if we move to the subjective side of how phenomena appear as the basis, then there is no need for the abstraction of unseen elements as producers of appearances. Even if the standard description is followed, the moment of awareness is after contact happened, so it could also be said that talking of experience as the basis is simply moving the focus, if one wants to maintain the established explanation. Also, taking the instance of consciousness as the basis of epistemological theory is the common approach already, furthermore, it can be said to be simply an argument for the topic of appearances are mind. To quote Thrangu Rinpoche again:

"Normally when we think about things we regard that which appears to us externally as composed of particles, and therefore as made up of matter, and we regard our cognition or our mind as a mere cognitive clarity or awareness and therefore as fundamentally different in nature from what we experience or what appears to us. But if we analyze carefully how we experience, we will see that what appears to us are actually fixated images created by our minds through taking many things together and designating them as units with certain designated characteristics. If you analyze the objective bases in physical reality for these designated images — and it is the designated images which we experience, not the objective bases — then you determine that the objective bases themselves, while apparently composed of particles, are actually composed of particles that when analyzed [in greater and greater detail] to the end, eventually disappear under analysis, and end up being composed of nothing. Nevertheless, appearances do appear to us. This of course is about reasoning and not about meditation; this is not an exercise for meditation."
(Pointing Out the Dharmakaya, p 114)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Help with Nagarjuna's "Seventy Stanzas on Emptiness"
Content:
Manjushri said:
isn't Nagarjuna is also expounding an idea, while using conventional language, as the Buddha has done too, in order to portray an idea that in fact is inadequately expressed through words given its intrinsic limitations?

Astus wrote:
There isn't any secret or hidden message behind all the words that Nagarjuna was somehow unable to express. The difficulty with reading in topics one is not yet familiar with is a common one in any area of study, hence the use of introductory works and asking teachers is the easy way in. It should also be noted that Nagarjuna often argues against the teachings of other Buddhists, as for instance in verse six against the famous doctrine of the Sarvastivadins that dharmas exist in the three times. But unless one is a Sarvastivadin already, it is unlikely that one has ever seriously thought of the possibility that dharmas also exist in the past and the future.

Manjushri said:
If so, would it be fair to consider this as an example of the "subtle means" mentioned in the Lotus Sutra to transmit a more truthful and comprehensive understanding of reality, by establishing a bridge (or a phantom city, for that matter) to reach enlightenment?

Astus wrote:
The goal is liberation through the realisation of appearances being empty of anything that can be grasped or identified with. That's why Nagarjuna means to prove that all concepts are unreal.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Conscious in what sense? Is it a conscious event inherently? Is it a conscious event in absence of contact? In absence of an object? In absence of a mind? How can one even speak of appearances at all in the absence of subject/object bifurcation?

Astus wrote:
What I say is simply the reverse of the usual presentation, taking the result of the contact - that is, the actual experience - as the source instead as the product. There, in the experience, or instance of consciousness, there is no dividing line between perceiver and perceived, between where mind ends and where mental factors begin, etc.

Malcolm said:
It is elementary to understand there are a subject, object, and contact, given, as you admit above, there can be no experience in absence of that triad.

Astus wrote:
Operating with that model can be convenient in general, but problematic when one attempts to take it as more than a simple tool, ending up with looking for an actual subject and/or object and how the two can make contact. But if it's all put within the framework of phenomenological experience, then the divisions are no longer problematic.

Malcolm said:
Further, in the case of a dream, it is clear there is an absence of this triad. Therefore, with respect to dreams you have to account for the experience of them based on some other theory of cognition.

Astus wrote:
Dreams still have the triad of mind faculty, mental object, and mental consciousness.

Malcolm said:
Also, given that direct perceptions are nonconceptual by nature, even your invocation of “experience” is merely an inference, and thus it is in no better place than the inference of subject/object bifurcation, which is standard in Buddhist models of cognition, and in many ways, inferior to it.

Astus wrote:
It sure is an inference and does not intend to be other than that. Establishing first a unit of experience before the division into elements simply seems more practical to me to avoid the difficulties presented by taking subject and object as separate entities.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 7:02 PM
Title: Re: Help with Nagarjuna's "Seventy Stanzas on Emptiness"
Content:
Manjushri said:
existent objects and non-existent objects, in what he calls the "conventional world", totally depend on each other for their own definition as such, since an existent object can be called so, only by comparing it with another object devoid of an existential status.

Astus wrote:
We don't call a bottle a bottle because of knowing about a situation where there is no bottle, so it's not a matter of comparing existent and non-existent entities. Without non-existence there is no existence, because everything is born and dies, hence the third line about permanence. It is important to note that being is very much connected to becoming, just as non-being to ceasing. So with the refutation of existence and non-existence, there is also the refutation of birth and death, and the other way around.

Manjushri said:
Hence why he mentions "permanence", since without the non-existing status as counterpoint, a functional object would lack this potential status and be perpetual. At the same time, for a non-existent object to arise, there must exist this possibility, for otherwise there would be no arising nor enduring nor ceasing, as Buddha taught.

Astus wrote:
There is no such thing as an object that could have sometimes the attribute of existence and sometimes the attribute of non-existence, even though that is how normally we speak. This very concept of there being an object, a substance, an entity that appears and disappears is what is refuted as the misconception of self, or "inherent existence".


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 5:43 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
So experiences experience themselves, huh?

Astus wrote:
When an experience occurs, it is already as a conscious event. To say that the experience is a product of a contact between faculty, object, and consciousness, is an interpretation after the event. As there is no case where one experiences just one of the three constituents, their existence is an assumption based on ordinary/naive concepts of perception that is object oriented (operating with the idea of independent external entities) instead of experiential/phenomenological (taking appearances as they occur). So it is not the case that experiences experience themselves, as that already is an objectification and separation of what does not actually show those properties.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 5:00 PM
Title: Re: Help with Nagarjuna's "Seventy Stanzas on Emptiness"
Content:
Astus wrote:
1. dngos dang dngos med cig car min
2. dngos med med na dngos po med
3. rtag to dngos po ang dngos med gyur
4. dngos med med par dngos mi srid

Tola-Dragonetti:
1. A thing existing and not existing at the same time is not (possible)
2. without the not existing thing, the existing thing is not (possible);
3. the existing thing and the not existing thing would be eternal;
4. without the existing thing, the not existing thing does not arise.

Lindtner:
1. Being and non-being are not simultaneous.
2. Without non-being, no being.
3. Being and non-being would always be.
4. There is no being independent of nonbeing.

Some relevant stanzas from MMK (tr Siderits):

5.6
When the existent is not real, with respect to what will there come to be nonexistence?
And existent and nonexistent are contradictory properties; who cognizes something, whether existent or nonexistent?

7.30-31
On the one hand it does not hold that an entity that exists is undergoing cessation,
for one thing cannot be both existent and nonexistent.
On the other hand it does not hold that an entity that does not exist is undergoing cessation,
just as there is no cutting off of a second head.

15.5
If the existent is unestablished, then the nonexistent too is not established.
For people proclaim the nonexistent to be the alteration of the existent.

15.11
For whatever exists by its intrinsic nature does not become nonexistent; eternalism then follows.
“It does not exist now [but] it existed previously”—from this, annihilation follows.

21.14
For one who acknowledges the existent, there would follow either eternalism or
annihilationism, for an existent would be either permanent or impermanent.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
a concept (thought) without a thinker is not imaginable, conventionally speaking.

Astus wrote:
It is actually imaginable in terms of phenomena being experiences in themselves, of empirical nature without the need to separate it to observed-observer, contained-container, and other such dichotomies. The basis of conventional reality can be reduced to a stream of experiences that naturally has the quality of being experienced without the need for something external to experience it.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Can there be a concept without a mind?

Astus wrote:
Do thoughts need a thinker? On the one hand they do, as that is how it is conceived conventionally that actions need agents. On the other hand there is no thinker, there are merely instances of experiences of various types, and even talking of instances is quite fabricated.

Malcolm said:
Typically, mind (citta) is one thing, mental factors (caitta), another. They arise together, but they are not the same. The latter coordinate the experience of the six senses for the former.

Astus wrote:
And that can be a useful distinction to some extent. However, as there is no such thing as a stand alone mind, nor can there be unconscious experiences, it is for conventions sake to posit a mind with the sole function of awareness.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Likewise, Mind is basically just an experience,  Isn’t it?

Astus wrote:
Rather, it's just a concept. There is no experience one could identify as "the mind".

PadmaVonSamba said:
specifically arises with a physical body (which is in itself merely a collection of emptinesses) is difficult to comprehend.

Astus wrote:
Distinguishing physical and mental phenomena is a conventional set of categories, splitting up the entirety of experience to two parts. As long as there is this idea that on the one hand there is the body (sarira) and on the other the mind (jiva) one will have serious difficulties with consolidating them. Instead of such a substantialist dichotomy the Buddha taught about the five aggregates and the six sensory areas.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 6:24 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
It's still not an object of cognition, but 'that which cognises'. We know the mind because it is that which knows, not because it appears to us as an object of knowledge.

Astus wrote:
Mind is not a single object, nor a single subject, but the conditional instances of consciousness. Imagining static subjects and objects is the standard convention that is steeped in substantialism, and it is in that context where self-awareness is refuted. Regarding what self-awareness is in Mahamudra:

'In the mahamudra context, when we say that the mind can be aware of its own nature, we mean that the mind is aware of its own nature, which is emptiness. Of course, all things are empty, but among all things, mind is manifestly empty. When you look at your mind in the mahamudra practice you observe that there is no shape, no color, no substantial characteristic of any kind, that the mind has no true origination, abiding, or cessation. If the mind had substantial existence, it would possess these characteristics, it would come into being, it would abide, and it would cease. What the mind sees when the mind looks at its own nature is its own absence of true existence. What is refuted in the Middle Way school is the mind seeing its own presence of true existence, since it does not have any. Therefore, in the mahamudra context, the use of self-awareness is quite different from the way it is used in the Madhyamaka context.'
(Pointing Out the Dharmakaya, p 103-104)

'The term “seeing the mind” is a simple designation for understanding the mind’s unreality, which is detached from the beginning from all modes of existence or nonexistence. The nature of mind is such that there is nothing – not even the infinitesimal end of a hair – that is a conceivable or perceptible object or observer.'
(Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 195)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 7:05 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
smcj said:
Is it just me, or are those two Thrangu R. quotes incompatible?

Astus wrote:
How so? Both state that knowing the mind directly is very much possible.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 4:31 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So in the case of 'the mind' - the mind is not an object at all. This is an empirical statement, a statement of fact. Search high and low using all the powers of the six sense gates (including their modern scientific enhancements like electron microscopes or brain scanners), you will never find an object that corresponds to the term 'mind'. How baffling!

Astus wrote:
'A hidden thing is something that you cannot know directly, like a fire that you cannot physically see, so you must determine its existence by the presence of smoke, which can be seen. In the case of something that is hidden, you need inferential valid cognition to determine its existence or absence. But in the case of the opposite type of thing, called an evident thing, you have no need to apply inference, since you can use direct valid cognition or direct experience. For example, I do not need to infer the presence of a bell on the table in front of me, since I can see it. I do not need to speculate about what possible evidence the bell might have left of its presence since it is right in front of me. I do not need to use reasoning at all. Now, with regard to meditation on the mind’s nature, the mind is not a hidden thing; it is an evident thing. It is your mind. Therefore, you can know it directly and experience its nature directly, and for that reason it is not necessary to use inferential valid cognition in determining the mind’s nature.'
(Pointing Out the Dharmakaya by Thrangu Rinpoche, p 64; highlight added)

'Not finding anything, you initially think that you have somehow failed. Either you misunderstood how to look, or you just haven’t looked enough. But in fact this is not true. The reason you didn’t find anything is that the nature of your mind is utter insubstantiality, which is why, according to the Buddha, it is empty. To thoroughly comprehend this emptiness, we need to experience this directly in meditation.'
(An Introduction to Mahamudra Meditation by Thrangu Rinpoche, p 33)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 3:40 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Is it asserted that, using the same analytical approach,  likewise, consciousness (‘mind’) cannot be found to exist inside or outside the body?

Astus wrote:
Right, through both reasoning and direct insight one can search for the mind's location, or abiding, and eventually conclude that it cannot be found anywhere. It might also be of interest regarding this topic the analysis of the relationship between body and mind as presented for instance in chapter 9 of Pointing Out the Dharmakaya by Thrangu Rinpoche.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Does consciousness (‘Mind’) arise only as sensation?

Astus wrote:
Consciousness arises as awareness, as being aware of things, a.k.a. clarity.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka < quantum mechanics?
Content:
smcj said:
If the axioms are false then the logic is flawed. If the logic is flawed there is no correct analysis.
The axiom that absurd conclusions can be deemed incorrect is false. Hence all the arguments are nonsense.

Astus wrote:
Is that an argument? If so, it is nonsense by its own definition, hence cannot be an argument.
Also, to prove that absurd conclusions can be correct, you need to do that in a logical way, not by quoting stories.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka < quantum mechanics?
Content:
smcj said:
So if the system of logic used to establish  “correct analysis” is itself shown to be flawed, then the conclusions that come from it are incorrect. Right?

Astus wrote:
What is called correct analysis is what is defined as such in Madhyamaka. How are you going to prove that wrong? Also, even analysis is merely relative truth, so of course ultimately it does not hold up to scrutiny. But neither does any other theory.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 3:50 PM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka < quantum mechanics?
Content:
smcj said:
It occurs to me that one major premise of buddhist dialectics is that an absurd conclusion is unacceptable. If an idea results in an absurd conclusion it is dismissed as wrong.

Astus wrote:
Madhyamaka accepts whatever is upheld by intelligent ordinary beings as valid relative truth. It is for the ultimate truth that correct analysis is applied to. So unless you propose that physics is ultimate truth, there is no contradiction between it and Madhyamaka.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 4:08 PM
Title: Re: Non-Attachment vs. Dettachment
Content:
hkvanx said:
Buddhism is telling the Olympic  athlete to be non-attached to the outcome (gold medal).

Astus wrote:
Buddhism teaches the ending of craving and clinging as the goal, and to that end there is the path of moral discipline, mental cultivation, and wisdom. The initial steps are not about suddenly letting go of all one's goals and motivations, but rather directing all that into an ethical track that is conducive to pacifying one's mind.

hkvanx said:
How does one continue to be engaged in a long strenuous training regime but try to be non-attached to the desired outcome?

Astus wrote:
That doesn't really work. One ordinarily does things either because of the pleasure gained from the act or because of a desirable outcome. In order to be free from the suffering one needs to eliminate the root cause of ignorance, however, until that happens there are still many steps one can take to ameliorate the pain of samsara. For instance, if one is disturbed by worries about achieving whatever goals, one can learn ways to calm down the mind to be less agitated, and then learn to recognise the pattern how worrisome thoughts bring about anxiety.

hkvanx said:
When I try to practice non-attachment in my daily life, it feels like I am becoming an emotional zombie or emotionally numb.

Astus wrote:
Non-attachment is not a special state of mind, so one cannot just switch to it. Although through wilful grasping at a blank state may look like freedom from clinging, it is rather another form of attachment that can work only as a temporary solution. It is advisable to learn to be mindful of the basic qualities of the various states of mind (vedanupassana) in terms of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Aemilius said:
I don't remember that Lotus sutra says "copying" anywhere? Where does it talk about copying in your opinion ?

Astus wrote:
It is already mentioned in chapter 3 ( "the people who recite, copy, and preserve it." BDK ed p 73; T262p15b26-27), but it's repeated several times in chapter 10, e.g. "If there is anyone who preserves, recites, explains, or copies even a single verse of the Lotus Sutra" (BDK ed p 157; T262p30c17-19), and "Among the many people, either among the laity or the ordained, who practice the bodhisattva path, if they are unable to see, hear, recite, copy, preserve, and pay homage to this Lotus Sutra, know that they are people who are not yet properly practicing the bodhisattva path." (BDK ed p 161; T262p31c3-5). In chapter 11: "But it will certainly be difficult to copy / And preserve this sutra / And cause others to copy it / After my nirvana." (BDK ed p 175; T262p34a24-25), and in chapter 13: "we will produce the power of great patience and recite, preserve, teach, and copy this sutra" (BDK ed p 187; T262p36a4-5), and in chapter 14: "teach it after reciting it, copy it after teaching it, and enable others to copy, respect, honor, praise, and pay homage to the [Lotus] Sutra." (BDK ed p 200; T262p38b18-20). And so on.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Sentient Light said:
Here's the correct one. https://www.academia.edu/11322753/Oral_Texts_in_Indian_Mahayana_IIJ_2015 _

Astus wrote:
That paper discusses different verbs, not those about reading and copying. Also, his main argument is that Mahayana sutras were memorised and written at the same time. At the end he also states: 'Generally speaking, as several scholars have already argued, the categories of “written” and “oral” traditions have little or no utility when applied to India.' He does not deny that the sutras existed as books, but rather attempts to highlight the presence of an oral tradition in parallel with the written works. To that it could be mentioned that for a while in China novices were required to memorise sutras before they could be ordained, even though the scriptures were preserved and transmitted in written form.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Sentient Light said:
David Drewes has a very compelling argument

Astus wrote:
I have not found such an argument in that text. Could you please provide a quote or page number?

In the mean time, here is James B. Apple's essay https://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+phrase+dharmaparyayo+hastagato+in+mahayana+buddhist+literature%3A...-a0371001219.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
There are many divergent recensions of the Lotus Sūtra. I wonder if the Gilgit Lotus mentions the Anantanirdeśasūtra. I suspect it doesn't, to be quite honest, since I suspect that it is Chinese apocrypha myself (no hard proof), but I am open to being quite wrong.

Astus wrote:
That the Buddha taught the "Mahānirdeśa" sutra, what Kumarajiva translates as "無量義", is translated as "大頌" by Dharmaraksa who renders the samadhi "anantanirdeśa" as "無量頌". Both Dharmaraksa and Kumarajiva precede the Gilgit manuscript. It is also mentioned in the reviewed version of the Lotus Sutra (T264) as "無量義教菩薩法佛所護念" and also in the Tibetan as "nges par bstan pa chen po". Still, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innumerable_Meanings_Sutra is assumed to be a Chinese apocrypha.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 7th, 2020 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Aemilius said:
That is true ofcourse, and for example in the White Lotus sutra, in the Devadatta chapter, there is the story of Shakyamuni in one of his previous births when he is serving an ascetic for many years who posses the teaching of the Lotus sutra. Here you definitely get the impression that the Sutra that the ascetic possess is not a material book, but is something that he holds in his mind.

Astus wrote:
Since the Lotus Sutra itself talks of the importance of reading and copying the Lotus Sutra, it is hard to see how that can refer to an oral tradition, unless such statements are later modifications of the text. But in that case it means that the Lotus Sutra is not the Lotus Sutra talked about in the Lotus Sutra.
Also, the Innumerable Meanings Sutra has a list of ten types of merit obtainable from it, and half of those talk of reading and copying the sutra, so again, it refers to its scriptural nature. In the very first chapter of the Lotus Sutra it is said that the Buddha was teaching the Innumerable Meanings Sutra. So, either the Innumerable Meanings Sutra is not the Innumerable Meanings Sutra, or it is one scripture writing of another scripture.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 6th, 2020 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Japanese priesthood and Japanese monkhood
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Actually, I think you might be mistaken on this on by characterizing it as a mere decriminalization, but I have to reread some materials.
In the meantime, the name of that historical movement, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haibutsu_kishaku, lit. "abolish Buddha(dharma), destroy Śākyamuni."

Astus wrote:
'One crucial law, promulgated in 1872, decriminalized a variety of clerical practices that had been illegal according to Bakufu regula­tions for much of the Edo period. The regulation, commonly referred to during the Meiji period as the nikujiki saitai 肉食妻帯 law, ended all penalties for clerics who violated state and clerical standards of deportment by eating meat, marrying, letting their hair grow, or aban­doning clerical dress.'
( https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/nfile/2645 by Richard Jaffe)

See also the topic: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=6774


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 6th, 2020 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Aemilius said:
Buddhism continued as an oral tradition for half a millennium.

Astus wrote:
And if you look at the various sutras, there is a notable difference between those that are apparently from an oral tradition and those that have been written down from the beginning. For instance, the often seen recommendation to copy and revere a Mahayana sutra is in reference to its physical nature as a scripture.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 6th, 2020 at 4:58 PM
Title: Re: Japanese priesthood and Japanese monkhood
Content:
khemindas said:
Who are priests (don't have Pabbajja(Parivrajya) or Upasampada), who are monks(Have Pabbajja or Upasampada)? May be you can recommend any book on this topic?

Astus wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saich%C5%8D in the early 9th century successfully established an ordination platform based solely on his interpretation of the bodhisattva precepts. In a century or so all other schools in Japan dropped the pratimoksha, and ever since (except for the occasional revival movements) there has been no higher ordination in Japan. The Meiji Restoration in the 19th century merely decriminalised for the clergy the breaking of the precepts regarding celibacy, vegetarianism, etc., but did not ban them.

See also this older topic: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=15462

As for a book, https://uhpress.hawaii.edu/product/going-forth-visions-of-buddhist-vinaya/


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 6th, 2020 at 4:25 PM
Title: Re: Paramartha and Xuanzang translations
Content:
Jion said:
I am trying to track down a document which has Vasubandhu's romanized Sanskrit of the Abhidharmakosabhasya alongside the Paramartha and Hsuan Tsang translations.

Astus wrote:
https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=volume&vid=511


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, January 4th, 2020 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
dolphin_color said:
When was Tantra introduced into Buddhism?

Astus wrote:
"It is only in the second half of the seventh century that the definitive esoteric system emerges, and we have several verifications of this dating."
(Indian Esoteric Buddhism: A Social History of the Tantric Movement by Ronald M Davidson, p 117)

dolphin_color said:
What where the social or historical factors that encouraged its introduction?

Astus wrote:
See Davidson's book.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 2nd, 2020 at 5:03 PM
Title: Re: Learning more about the tenet systems
Content:
Stephen18 said:
Where can I learn more about the Mahāyāna tenet systems?

Astus wrote:
It is important to keep in mind that it does matter who presents the various systems, because there is naturally and intentionally a bias against all tenets that are not upheld as the best/highest.

Academic:
https://books.google.hu/books/about/Buddhist_Teaching_in_India.html?id=fjU6AwAAQBAJ by Johannes Bronkhorst
https://books.google.hu/books/about/Buddhist_Thought.html?id=v0Rpvycf1t0C by Paul Williams, Alexander Wynne, Anthony Tribe
https://books.google.hu/books/about/Madhyamika_and_Yogacara.html?id=1-cHxL1ews0C by Gadjin M. Nagao

General East Asian:
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/archive/nutshell/index.htm
https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/essentials-eight-traditions-and-candle-latter-dharma

Chan:
Treatise on the Origin of Humanity in https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/three-short-treatises-vasubandhu-sengzhao-and-zongmi

Tiantai:
A Guide to the Tiantai Fourfold Teachings in https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/tiantai-lotus-texts

Kagyüpa (Rime):
https://www.shambhala.com/treasury-of-knowledge-book-6-part-3.html

Gelugpa:
https://www.shambhala.com/buddhist-philosophy-2187.html


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 21st, 2019 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: Schrodinger's Tathagatagharbha?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
My question is whether the concept of what basicallly amounts to “unrealized perfect realization” is by definition an untenable contradiction.

Astus wrote:
It is not “unrealized perfect realization”. Buddha-nature refers to qualities, not the realisation of qualities. Realisation is enlightenment to those qualities.

PadmaVonSamba said:
So...undeveloped dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, and nirmanakaya?

Astus wrote:
There is nothing to develop on the three bodies.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 21st, 2019 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Schrodinger's Tathagatagharbha?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Would you say then, that Buddha-nature is actually a term describing Buddha-potential, rather than Buddha-realization?

Astus wrote:
Buddha-nature means the qualities of a buddha are already present and not developed, therefore one only needs to remove the two types of obscuration. As qualities, they are like one's eyes: one has to open them in order to see. So, as long as one is deluded about the self, buddha-nature is merely a potential in the way that one has the possibility to discover it, to see with the buddha-eye. Once there is no more ignorance the eye is opened, and the qualities of a buddha become active. Now, as for what those qualities, they are the three bodies, and they are present as the emptiness (dharmakaya), awareness (sambhogakaya), and appearances (nirmanakaya) of the mind. Regardless if one is deluded or awakened, the mind is empty, aware, and functional. The difference lies in taking the mind to be a self or not, in the presence or absence of grasping.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 20th, 2019 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Schrodinger's Tathagatagharbha?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
The argument I’m raising is simply that a buddha is free of hinderances,
All beings are, ultimately, Buddhas Yet all beings experience hinderances.

Astus wrote:
From a false premise no good result can come. Buddha-nature is not some sort of shiny soul hidden inside a dirty soul, hence the misapplied objections proposed:
Thus, one’s buddha-nature can’t go unrecognized, or else it isn’t really buddha-nature. You can’t be a buddha and not know it,
Because a buddha knows everything. It’s like the hypothetical “universal solvent” that no container can hold, because it would dissolve that container.
If there’s nothing a buddha can’t see through, Nothing can hinder realization of one’s buddha nature, Yet hinderances obscure that realization all the time for beings.
Those are invalid arguments, because the assumption that there is a little buddha in everyone is not true.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, December 19th, 2019 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: Could someone provide confirmation of Brunholzl?
Content:
Dgj said:
I looked at both of those works. I couldn't find anything where it is stated directly anything that confirms the Brunholzl quote.

Astus wrote:
Actually, it is not a quote from Brunnhölzl, but rather the interpretation of the author of the Wikipedia article. On the referred to page 73 Brunnhölzl quotes Candrakirti (Madhyamakavatara 6.23), so I give the latter's summary of conventional truth:

'Since all things can be seen genuinely or falsely,
Every thing bears two natures.
The Buddha taught that the object of genuine seeing is suchness
And that false seeing is the relative truth.
False seeing is also said to have two aspects:
That with clear faculties and that with faulty faculties.
In dependence upon consciousnesses endowed with good faculties,
Consciousnesses endowed with faulty faculties are asserted to be wrong.
What is apprehended by the undamaged six faculties
Is known by the world
And is true for the world.
Everything else is held by the world to be false.'
(Madhyamakavatara 6.23-25, Feast for the Fortunate, p 204-208)

Here's also Aryadeva:

'Since those things that appear in an erroneous cognition are not real, they are not as they appear in that cognition. That cognition is of the same nature as those things — i.e., an appearance without reality.
Whosoever with a subtle mind conceives all things as merely dependent, that intelligent one easily abandons desires and other attachments, just as the one who knows that there is no snake but only a rope abandons the fear of the snake.
In pondering worldly things, one should act as worldly people do. One who desires to abandon the mental afflictions (hatred, greed, and desire) must investigate things from the ultimate point of view.'
(The Hand Treatise, v 4-6, in Indian Madhyamaka Buddhism after Nagarjuna, vol 1, p 4-5)

Bhavaviveka:

'“Conventional truth,” as it is called, is also known to be of two types: “authentic conventional truths” and “inauthentic conventional truths.” Something that has the capacity to produce results is called an “authentic conventional truth,” and what appears conventionally but is without such a power is called an “inauthentic conventional truth.”'
(Summary on the Meaning of the Middle Way, v 9-10, in Indian Madhyamaka Buddhism after Nagarjuna, vol 1, p 145)

Dgj said:
Anything that states that conventional reality is not denied would do. However, quotes that state that conventional reality is imaginary, or nonexistent would not help dispel my wrong understanding of Nagarjuna, as these could easily be misunderstood as nihilistic, and are the exact opposite of the Brunholzl quote above.

Astus wrote:
Conventional truths are not denied but seen as conventional and as the product of ignorance. It could be said that dependent origination is the conventional and emptiness is the ultimate truth, and these two form the basic teaching of Madhyamaka. Furthermore, dependent origination is possible only when things are empty, and emptiness is not something apart from dependent origination. So, yes, all conventional phenomena are imaginary and false, there is no ultimate substance provided for them, however, it is not the case either that there is a mere denial of dependently originated false concepts that ordinary beings mistake for reality. It should not be forgotten either that the very purpose of the teaching is the elimination of attachment through the removal of the misconception of established, substantial things; and such things are already assumed, we are already ignorantly stuck in samsara deluded by our truths that are merely conventional, conceptual, nominal, and dependent but mistaken as ultimate, factual, real, and independent. So it is actually a given that there is the conventional truth, and through understanding the nature of conventionality one can realise the ultimate, and by that realisation attain liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, December 19th, 2019 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Schrodinger's Tathagatagharbha?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
It is asserted in the Mahayana schools, one way or another, that all beings possess Buddha Nature.

Astus wrote:
That is meant to encourage beings. It is not a claim of some magical essence hidden inside.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Regardless of how it is expressed, there is a general understanding that all beings have the potential to realize full awakening.

Astus wrote:
If one has legs, there is the potential to walk all over the Earth. If one has hands, there is the potential to sculpt something amazing. A potential is simply fabricating predictions, not some entity.

PadmaVonSamba said:
At the same time, it can be argued that a Buddha, by definition, is regarded as unimpeded, meaning that all obscurations have been overcome.
If this is the case, then no shell can restrain the chick, no cloud can obscure the Sun.
In other words, one can argue that Buddha nature (Tathagatagharbha) cannot exist in an unrealized state just as a flame cannot exist in an unburning state.

Astus wrote:
Since the teaching on the covered buddha statue is merely a metaphor, it is the wrong path to assume a little buddha hidden inside one's mind.

PadmaVonSamba said:
we can assert that there is no fixed point separating unrealized-state from realized-state.

Astus wrote:
There really is no self, but beings falsely imagine a self. If investigated, even ignorance is empty, but before correctly analysing it, there is ignorance.

PadmaVonSamba said:
If a Buddha is a fully awakened being, and sentient beings possess Buddha nature but are unawakened, then isn't this a bit like Schodinger's Cat, simultaneously alive and dead?

Astus wrote:
Rather it's like assuming one has money in one's pocket, but only when actually reaching into it to pay one realises to be penniless. Or the other way around, that one is in fact rich. In any case, there are simply ignorance and wisdom.

PadmaVonSamba said:
"full realization" by definition, cannot be confined within the limits of "potential".

Astus wrote:
And nobody said it was.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 17th, 2019 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Could someone provide confirmation of Brunholzl?
Content:
Dgj said:
Conventionally, Madhyamaka holds that beings do perceive concrete objects which they are aware of empirically.
-Brunholzl, Karl, Center of the Sunlit Sky
So if someone could provide texts that confirm the Brunholzl quote above I'll study those instead of bothering the fine people on here further. The quote is completely counter to my incorrect understanding and therefore, once I can read texts confirming this quote as accurate it will both disprove my incorrect understanding and explain why it is incorrect.

Astus wrote:
You might start with Brunnhölzl's wonderful book where the quote is from. Other than that, Nagarjuna simply states what you find in the sutras, that dependent origination has ignorance at its root, so all things arise from that, while emptiness remedies that ignorance.

'The childish are attached to forms;
The moderate attains detachment;
By knowing the nature of forms,
Those of supreme intellect are free.'
( https://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/SixtyStanzas.pdf, v 55)

Apart from practically any work of Nagarjuna, you can look into his short treatise called https://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-masters/nagarjuna/heart-dependent-origination, with commentary in part two of http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nagarjuna.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 17th, 2019 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: Is there a rational, simple, logical way to explain Nagarjuna's seemingly paradoxical teachings?
Content:
Dgj said:
So simply stating that nothing exists is a wrong view doesnt fix the issue that he made it abundantly clear that nothing exists.

Astus wrote:
Where is the paradox in that?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 17th, 2019 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: How did Nagarjuna not teach extreme nihilism?
Content:
Dgj said:
However he also proved that nothing whatsoever exists: extreme nihilism.

Astus wrote:
You are not wrong there. Nagarjuna did prove in various ways that conventionally everything is dependently originated, therefore ultimately nothing exists. When there is talk of denying the extremes of existence and non-existence, that means that there is nothing that continues (permanence), nor anything that discontinues (annihilation).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 16th, 2019 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Express your Zen in 10 words.
Content:
Astus wrote:
veracity and falsity
measurements in conditionality
thoughts come, thoughts go


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 16th, 2019 at 5:08 PM
Title: Re: Express your Zen in 10 words.
Content:
Astus wrote:
no truth to find
stop seeking mind
that's all

'No need to seek the real;
Just extinguish your views.'
(Sengcan)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 15th, 2019 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: The Four Noble Truths are
Content:
Viach said:
You can practice Satipatthana without even knowing about the existence of 4TN.

Astus wrote:
How does that even address the generally accepted order of the three stages of wisdom that begins with learning? Also, skipping between Sarvastivada and Theravada can cause some mistakes, as they are somewhat different systems.

Viach said:
Thus, 4TN are not for everyone, but only for those who have already solved the problem or are one or two steps before solving it.

Astus wrote:
Not in Theravada, nor in Sarvastivada.

'This superior right view leading to liberation is the understanding of the Four Noble Truths. It is this right view that figures as the first factor of the Noble Eightfold Path in the proper sense: as the noble right view. Thus the Buddha defines the path factor of right view expressly in terms of the four truths: “What now is right view? It is understanding of suffering (dukkha), understanding of the origin of suffering, understanding of the cessation of suffering, understanding of the way leading to the cessation to suffering.” The Eightfold Path starts with a conceptual understanding of the Four Noble Truths apprehended only obscurely through the media of thought and reflection. It reaches its climax in a direct intuition of those same truths, penetrated with a clarity tantamount to enlightenment. Thus it can be said that the right view of the Four Noble Truths forms both the beginning and the culmination of the way to the end of suffering.'
( http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/noble8path6.pdf by Bhikkhu Bodhi, p 22)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 15th, 2019 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: Looking for some Zen (Chan) lectures
Content:
TheWhiteLotus said:
My main reason for wanting to study Zen, is that I wanted learn directly from sutra of the Buddha.

Astus wrote:
If you want to study Mahayana sutras:

https://www.bdkamerica.org/catalog-tripitaka
http://sutrasmantras.info/sutra0.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20180704171259/http://www.fodian.net:80/world/
https://ymba.org/free-books
http://www.cttbusa.org/sutratexts.asp
https://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka
https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=library&bid=2
http://www.huzheng.org/en/mtlee/


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 15th, 2019 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: The Four Noble Truths are
Content:
Viach said:
This means that 4TN is the answer at the end of the problem book. ... For others, knowing the answer in no way will not help.

Astus wrote:
There are stages before gaining the insight into the four noble truths, and there are also three stages of wisdom on must go through, the first of which is learning the Dharma, including the learning of the four noble truths. So it is actually very meaningful and necessary to learn and understand the four truths before one engages in cultivation and eventually gains insight.

'Whoever desires to see the Truths should first of all keep the Precepts. Then he reads the teaching upon which his Seeing of the Truths depends, or he hears their meaning. Having heard, he correctly reflects. Having reflected, he gives himself up to the cultivation of meditation. With the wisdom (prajna) arisen from the teaching (srutamayi) for its support, there arises the wisdom arisen from reflection (cintamayi) with this for its support, there arises the wisdom arisen from meditation (bhavanamayi).'
(AKB, vol 3, p 911-912, tr Pruden)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 14th, 2019 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: Infinities
Content:
dolphin_color said:
1. Is the cosmos (our observable universe plus whatever could be beyond it) infinitely large?
2. Are there phenomena ( dharmas ) that have the quality of being infinite (in size, or in some other property)?

Astus wrote:
“If there is the view ‘the world is finite,’...‘the world is infinite,’... the holy life cannot be lived.”
(Culamalunkya Sutta, MN 63.6)

“How is it, Master Gotama, does Master Gotama hold the view: ‘The world is finite: only this is true, anything else is wrong’?” 
“Vaccha, I do not hold the view: ‘The world is finite: only this is true, anything else is wrong.’”
“How then, does Master Gotama hold the view: ‘The world is infinite: only this is true, anything else is wrong’?”
“Vaccha, I do not hold the view: ‘The world is infinite: only this is true, anything else is wrong.’”
(Aggivacchagotta Sutta, MN 72.5-6)

“Vaccha, wanderers of other sects regard the eye ... the mind thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ Therefore, when the wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: ‘The world is eternal’ ... or ‘The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ But, Vaccha, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, regards the eye ... the mind thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ Therefore, when the Tathagata is asked such questions, he does not give such answers.”
(Moggalana Sutta, SN 44.7)

https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/abhidharma-tenet-systems/time-the-universe/the-fourteen-questions-to-which-buddha-remained-silent


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 13th, 2019 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment and compassion
Content:
Evdot said:
If enlightenment is void of feeling, then how can enlightened people feel compassion?

Astus wrote:
Enlightenment is about the freedom from the delusion of self and thus the end of all attachment. Feeling is not the problem, it is the clinging to and identification with a feeling that causes suffering. Compassion is very much present all along the path and at the culmination as well.

'Mahamudra is nondual awareness that transcends intellect; it is nonconceptual, lucid, like all-pervading space. Though manifesting boundless compassion, it is devoid of self-nature. It is like the reflection of the moon on the lake’s surface.'
(Maitripa, quoted in Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 94)

'The spirit of enlightenment [bodhichitta] is defined as the union of compassion and emptiness, which is the quintessence of the path, the luster of unceasing compassion that cannot bear the suffering of sentient beings, and the nondual awareness that cognizes compassion as being empty of any essence or self-nature. This is the essence of Mahayana Buddhism. The Hevajra tantra comments:

The union of emptiness and compassion
Is described as the spirit of enlightenment.
The Vajrapanjara explains:
The meditation on the union
Of emptiness and compassion
Is indeed the teaching
Of the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

The Samputa says:
The nondiscriminatory simplicity [of mind]
Is described as wisdom;
That which fulfills the wishes of sentient beings [without exception],
The way a wish-granting gem does, [is described] as compassion.

Saraha states:
He who seeks emptiness without compassion
Will not realize the supreme path;
Yet he who meditates mainly on compassion
Will not realize liberation.
He who unifies the two
Will neither remain in samsara nor in nirvana,

Savari declares:
He who has attained nonevaluating awareness,
Who is unable to bear the misery of confused sentient beings,
And who sheds tears of compassion
While working for their benefit,
Turns concern for himself
Into concern for others.'
(Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 350)

'Je Gomchung comments:
Postabsorption at the one-pointed stage is solid;
Postabsorption at the nondiscriminatory stage is a perceived illusion;
Postabsorption at the one-flavor stage is the awareness of emptiness;
Postabsorption at the nonmeditation stage is dynamic compassion.
...
Line four shows that because absorption and postabsorption are blended, no distinct postabsorption as such exists. Yet, nondiscriminatory compassion emerges representing a dynamic attainment. Hence the term “dynamic compassion” for the postabsorptive perception.'
(Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 369)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 13th, 2019 at 5:31 PM
Title: Re: Early Madhyamaka
Content:
Dgj said:
Despite lacking any essence, he argues, phenomena nonetheless exist conventionally...
Where is this type of thing ever stated or explained by the early Madhyamaka thinkers like Nagarjuna, Bhāviveka, Buddhapālita and Candrakīrti?

Astus wrote:
The doctrine of two truths is accepted by the abhidharmika and madhyamika equally, the difference is in how it is divided. In terms of the conventional, the line drawn by abhidharmikas is between worldly parlance and dharmas, where dharmas are ultimate truths, while madhyamikas say that not only worldly ideas are conceptual but so are the dharmas, and ultimate truth is purely emptiness. So, to say that phenomena exist conventionally is fine for madhyamikas, but on the one hand every constructed is included in conventionality (note: in the various abhidharma systems most of the dharmas are constructed and impermanent, while at the same time put in the category of ultimate truth), and on the other hand conventionality means a mere conceptual existence without real referents. So the key element in Madhyamaka that divides ordinary and noble beings is in recognising the fictional nature of phenomena.

'Those who assert the conditioned things
As being established in terms of ultimate reality,
Why wouldn’t the faults of permanence and so on
Not arise within their minds?

Those who accept the conditioned things
As being neither true nor false,
Just like the moon in the water,
They are not carried away by dogmatic views.'
(Yuktisastika-karika, v 44-45, tr Thupten Jinpa)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, December 12th, 2019 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Looking for some Zen (Chan) lectures
Content:
TheWhiteLotus said:
I am interested studying Zen.  I am looking for some lectures. I prefer a course structure or a text (sutra) that is being explained.  Any recommendations?

Astus wrote:
Please be aware that Chan/Zen is not a specific set of doctrines, nor a unified school, therefore methods and styles can vary from teacher to teacher, and from community to community. Below is a list of possible introductory materials from different sources and with a varying degree of expansiveness.

http://www.shengyen.org/freebook/pdf/In_the_Spirit_of_Chan.pdf
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/HanshanDeqing.html#c
https://www.emptycloud.net/articles-2/chan-meditation-%E7%A6%85/prerequisites-of-the-chan-training/
https://www.emptycloud.net/articles-2/chan-meditation-%E7%A6%85/the-chan-training/
https://tienvnguyen.net/images/file/G5gYJdC51AgQAHUb/keystobuddhism.pdf
https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/leaflet/heartofzen/index.html
http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020
https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/zen-texts
https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/platform-sutra-sixth-patriarch


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, December 12th, 2019 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: The Four Noble Truths are
Content:
Viach said:
the correct yogic (non-intellectual) view immediately precedes the emergence of the yogic understanding of 4TN and becoming the Ariya.

Astus wrote:
What is that statement based on? Where do you find in the sutras or the abhidharma such explanation?

Vasubandhu in AKB (vol 3, p 897, tr Pruden):
'Because, in the period preparatory to the Path proper, that is, the period of examination, the ascetic first creates an idea of that to which he is attached, of that by which he is tormented, of that from which he seeks to be delivered, namely, suffering. Then he asks what is its cause, and he creates an idea of its origin. Then he asks what does extinction consist of, and he creates an idea of extinction. Then he asks what is the Path to extinction, and he creates an idea of the path. ...
What is the meaning of the word abhisamaya (comprehension)? This word signifies abhisambodha, ''understanding, comprehension." The root i signifies "to understand".'

Also, even when one actually attains one of the fruits, there are several stages preceding it, and "non-conceptual" does not really feature among them. But if you have some sources, please present them.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 11th, 2019 at 5:52 PM
Title: Re: Agamas/Nikayas and Mahayana
Content:
ryan_oliveira said:
Are Agamas and Nikayas studied in Mahayana Buddhism today? What is the Mahayana view of these texts?

Astus wrote:
20th century scholarship brought back their study. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_Shun made extensive research, and there is even a new Japanese school called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agon_Shu.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 8th, 2019 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: What's 'dependent' in dependent arising?
Content:
Rick said:
Still perplexed by the term 'dependent' in Chandrakirti's: "Dependent arising is the complete antithesis and negation of production by any of the four ways."

Astus wrote:
What you quote is from Mipham's commentary for the stanza by Candrakirti:

'Since things do not arise causelessly,
Nor through the causes of Īshvara and so on,
Nor from self, other, or both,
Th erefore they excellently arise in dependence.'
(Madhyamakavatara 6.114, in Feast for the Fortunate, p 323)

Rick said:
Let's say that the four ways *could* produce.

Astus wrote:
Impossible. See the reasons summarised in https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/mipham/four-great-logical-arguments.

Rick said:
My confusion might be just a matter of semantics. It might be that 'dependent' DOES apply to the situation I described ... but the doctrine of 'dependent arising' does not. I.e. it might make no sense to equate 'dependent arising' with the lay definition of 'dependent.'
?

Astus wrote:
It is actually not complicated at all. Dependency, dependent origination, it all means what normally one assumes: things arise and cease because of causes and conditions. That is a conventionally valid truth, that is how things work in life. That it is not possible to ultimately establish (find a logical, reasonable basis for) conventional truth, that is why it is merely conventional.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 7th, 2019 at 5:20 PM
Title: Re: What's 'dependent' in dependent arising?
Content:
Rick said:
Given this, what does the 'dependent' in dependent arising refer to?

Astus wrote:
'The answer is that we speak in a way that does not destroy the world’s conventions that are accepted on the level of no analysis. As we have previously explained, things do not arise causelessly, from their own entities. Nor do things arise, in either of the two truths, from Īshvara, time, particles, inherent natures, persons, Narayana, or other such causes. Rather, results such as sprouts excellently arise in dependence upon all the causes and conditions, such as seeds, that are necessary for the result to appear.'
(Wangchuk Dorje, in The Feast for the Fortunate, p 323-324)

Being dependent refers to the common understanding that appearances depend on causes and conditions in order to appear, in other words, that things arise and cease based on specific causes and conditions. But when that causality is analysed, there is nothing that can be found to substantiate its reality. That is the very first topic of the Mulamadhyamakakarika. Also, exactly because all things necessarily arise dependently, there are neither things nor dependence that could be established. Hence everything is unborn because born.

'In order to avoid eliminating worldly conventions concerning what is unanalyzed and commonly renowned, one should rely on the understanding that results arise perfectly in dependence upon causes and conditions that are mere appearances, as is the case with sprouts arising from seeds and so forth.'
(Mikyo Dorje, in The Moon of Wisdom, p 327)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 2nd, 2019 at 4:24 PM
Title: Re: How do the different national traditions of Zen (Chan, Seon and Thien) differ? What about Zen in the West?
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
what are the main differences between the different national traditions of Zen?

Astus wrote:
Zen is not a centralised set of beliefs, individuals have free hand in selecting what methods and doctrines they follow, therefore trying to define Zen as if there were something generally valid all over hundreds of communities is meaningless, as the characteristics that one can find in an entire country are usually those that are there not only in Zen groups but the entirety of "national" Buddhism. For instance, one could say that the Surangama Sutra is a somewhat unique element of Chinese Chan, however, it is also used by Chinese Pure Land teachers as well, furthermore, putting groups and teachers into seemingly distinct categories like Chan, Pure Land, Tiantai, etc. in Chinese Buddhism is often the wrong approach.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 2nd, 2019 at 4:12 PM
Title: Re: There is no Vajrayana without renuciation
Content:
SonamTashi said:
The renunciation I was referring to was the Shravakayana practices of viewing the body as impure and things like that specifically--this is where the Vajrayana transforms instead.

Astus wrote:
But regardless of the method, the goal and the result is the same: elimination of the defilements. Since in all cases one should arrive at the point that is free from sensual craving, it still leaves the issue of family life vis-a-vis enlightenment unanswered.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 2nd, 2019 at 12:36 AM
Title: Re: There is no Vajrayana without renuciation
Content:
futerko said:
Ah, so if one distinguishes between a preference for a pleasant experience and an attachment to it, then one must also distinguish between a goal of having no sensation or experience whatsoever and a state where sensation is merely seen for what it is.

Astus wrote:
If there is preference for pleasant experience, there is already craving and attachment. The non-existence of an experience, however, is not the same as seeing an experience for what it is.

futerko said:
The dependent nature in this case is sensation and emptiness non-dual. It is pointless to first designate "attractive objects" (or any putative objects), and then designate them as empty - that is merely an indication of the push and pull of striving against experience itself.

Astus wrote:
The presence or absence of craving for a pleasant feeling is where attachment and suffering may or may not arise. When there is no craving, no attachment, there is no need to do anything about experiences, and that is where self-liberation can happen. But when there is craving and attachment, using the concept of emptiness as a patch can be of some help, even if it is only a temporary measure.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 1st, 2019 at 5:50 PM
Title: Re: There is no Vajrayana without renuciation
Content:
Astus wrote:
When attractive objects are seen as empty, there is no cause for the emergence of sensual craving. Renunciation may be forced or natural, and the natural form of it is when there is no more craving and clinging, when the wisdom of emptiness is present, there is no effort in renouncing. However, the result of forcing oneself not to be indulgent and being already without craving is the same in not engaging with sensuality. Similarly, no matter how defilements are conquered, the point is to become free from them.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 29th, 2019 at 6:28 PM
Title: Re: Are there any schools of Mahayana or Vajrayana Buddhism that do not ascribe to the view that all is one mind?
Content:
Dgj said:
these statements are nearly identical to Hindu statements. For example: "All is consciousness" is a really common Hindu teaching. "All is Mind" lacks any discernable difference without a great deal of explanation and redefining of terms or using them in unusual ways.

Astus wrote:
It is not possible to read practically anything without necessary contextual knowledge. Words gain more and more precise meaning through context. It should also be clear that reading things in translation require even more awareness of the complexity of transferring the intended meaning. So, just because there is the word 'mind' in a text, it doesn't really limit the possibilities of meanings of the word, unless one actually studies the whole text. So, if one reads Huangbo, there should be some awareness that it is a Chan text, not a systematic explanation of the Dharma, but a more practical oriented set of instructions.

Dgj said:
"All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists."
So, from this, at face value, mind is something that exists, nothing else does, and this mind is singular. To make it mean that "One Mind" isn't denoting some self existing, all encompassing entity requires jumping through some hoops.

Astus wrote:
Not at all. Even at face value, if one cares to read on from the first sentence, it becomes clear that no such doctrine of a singular mind was intended. It is not a matter of code or secret messages.

Dgj said:
there must be schools of Mahayana or Vajrayana Buddhism or at least individuals within said groups that found this wording and teaching problematic.

Astus wrote:
Not really. I don't think there is any Tibetan translation of Huangbo, while in East Asian Buddhism the two texts on Huangbo's teachings are canonical works of the Chan school. It should also be noted that the term "one mind" did not really gain currency in Chan, it is not an expression regularly used, in fact, the term "no mind" is far more ubiquitous.

Dgj said:
Someone must have noticed it being dangerously close to, or rather completely identical to (at face value), Hindu teachings, which could confuse or mislead people, and refuted it, or at least explained it carefully as correct but suggested using different wording?

Astus wrote:
Chan is not an Indian school, so there were not many Hindus to worry about. Also, the meaning you read from that one sentence is not really its meaning, hence the confusion is in modern English, not in ancient Chinese.

Dgj said:
could you be more specific as to how I could do so?

Astus wrote:
First of all, what do you mean by "consciousness only" or "mind only" or "one mind only"? If it refers to the view of an ultimately existing entity, that is readily refuted even by Yogacara. If it refers to how our experiences are defined by conceptuality, that is easily accepted by any Mahayanika. If it refers to something else, then please specify.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 29th, 2019 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Are there any schools of Mahayana or Vajrayana Buddhism that do not ascribe to the view that all is one mind?
Content:
Dgj said:
Is it really possible that all these teachers stated "All is the One Mind..." Or similar, but none of them meant what the sentence literally means at face value?

Astus wrote:
Huangbo was not a Yogacara teacher, and what he calls One Mind is a term not for the eight consciousnesses but for buddha-mind, for suchness, for emptiness. See what he said:

"The Buddhas and all the sentient beings are only the One Mind—there are no other dharmas. Since beginningless time, this mind has never been generated and has never been extinguished, is neither blue nor yellow, is without shape and without characteristic, does not belong to being and nonbeing, does not consider new or old, is neither long nor short, and is neither large nor small. It transcends all limitations, names, traces, and correlations. It in itself—that’s it! To activate thoughts is to go against it! It is like space, which is boundless and immeasurable."
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 13)

Also note that in the very next chapter Huangbo calls it not One Mind but No Mind, and they mean the same thing actually, the ultimate realisation, that is, no conceptualisation, no attachment.

Dgj said:
That said, there are scholarly views that at least mention early Madhyamika thinkers countering this Yogacara view, which seems to imply they didn't immediately see it as meaning other than it sounds at face value.

Astus wrote:
If you ask whether there are schools that do not follow the doctrine of consciousness only, that needs further clarification, because there are various interpretations of that term, so what is seemingly refuted by one is not actually the view of the other.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 29th, 2019 at 2:06 AM
Title: Re: Are there any schools of Mahayana or Vajrayana Buddhism that do not ascribe to the view that all is one mind?
Content:
Simon E. said:
Dzogchen would and does demur.

Astus wrote:
So according to dzogchen there are dharmas that are not such? Do you have some examples for those things?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 29th, 2019 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: Are there any schools of Mahayana or Vajrayana Buddhism that do not ascribe to the view that all is one mind?
Content:
Dgj said:
As far as I know, they all do, but I am largely uneducated in this area.

Astus wrote:
It really depends on whether Huangbo is understood correctly or incorrectly. If one reads that sentence as a statement about a single universal consciousness, that is not accepted by any Buddhist school, nor was that meant by Huangbo. If one understands it as that all appearances are suchness, then nobody has a problem with it in Mahayana or Vajrayana.

Also, just to make it clearer, besides the quoted translation by Blofeld, here are others:

"All the buddhas and sentient beings are only the one mind; there is no other dharma." (Buswell)
"All Buddhas and all sentient beings are no different from the One Mind." (Lok To)
"The Buddhas and all the sentient beings are only the One Mind—there are no other dharmas." (McRae)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 28th, 2019 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: The Four Noble Truths are
Content:
Astus wrote:
“Bhikkhus, this is the forerunner and precursor of the rising of the sun, that is, the dawn. So too, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu this is the forerunner and precursor of the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as the really are, that is, right view. It is to be expected that a bhikkhu with right view will understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’… ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’
“Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn56.37/en/bodhi )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 27th, 2019 at 4:53 PM
Title: Re: English translation of 般若摄颂
Content:
Empty Cloud said:
Is there an English translation of this condensed prajnaparamita text used by Serte Larung Khenpos like Khenpo Sardarge in his teachings?

Astus wrote:
https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E8%88%AC%E8%8B%A5%E6%91%84%E9%A2%82 = http://ntireader.org/taisho/t0229.html = http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/book/72 = http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.de/downloads/ratnagunasamcayagatha.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 26th, 2019 at 5:03 PM
Title: Re: Looking for a good book that goes through the teachings of Mahayana Buddhism
Content:
Snowbeast said:
Mahayana especially focusing on East Asian Buddhism.

Astus wrote:
https://hsingyun.org/books/core-teachings/
'Conceived as a starting point for those coming to Buddhism for the first time, The Core Teachings is a guided tour of the most essential aspects of Buddhist wisdom and how they can be applied in our own lives and practice. Honed by Venerable Master Hsing Yun’s decades of teaching and commitment to sharing Buddhism in a straightforward, accessible way, The Core Teachings gives new life to Buddhist basics like the Four Noble Truths, karma, and the five precepts.'

http://www.108wisdom.org/html/OTH_03.pdf
'As a long-time monk, scholar, and founder of monasteries in Asia and North America, Master Sheng Yen is uniquely qualified to explain the correct — therefore “orthodox” — beliefs that have guided Chinese Buddhism for over 1,500 years. Written while the author was on solitary retreat, OCB was Master Sheng Yen's response to many questions he received about Chinese Buddhism. Using a question-and-answer format, the book explores a wide range of subjects, from what it means to be a Buddhist to sudden enlightenment. This English translation is therefore a welcome addition to the Western literature of Buddhism, and includes new annotations, appendixes, and a glossary designed for the Western reader.'

https://archive.org/details/BuddhismInEveryStepBooklets/page/n3 ( https://www.fgsitc.org/booklets/ )
'The following is a large collection of booklets (all in PDF format) on Buddhism and various topics from a Buddhist perspective written by Master Hsing Yun, the founder of the Fo Guang Shan (Buddha's Light Mountain) Buddhist order and the Buddha's Light International Association.'


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 26th, 2019 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: liberating "emotion" vs. "thought"
Content:
Astus wrote:
'This task is to see through a particular train of thought and its related associations in order to discern the underlying mental current. For mindful recognition of our present mental state, the requirement is above all a clear recognition without getting involved in the details of whatever train of thought and related associations are taking place. Since it is often precisely these details that get us hooked and caught up in a particular chain of thoughts, achieving such recognition is more easily said than done. Recognizing the feeling tone of our current experience offers help for this task. It grounds awareness in the affective reality of the present moment and thereby draws attention to our subjective involvement in whatever is happening. In this way we learn to attend to the baseline condition of the mind rather than to the details of particular thoughts.
This is of considerable importance, since human beings are quite able to remain immersed in their thoughts while at the same time completely ignoring the baseline emotional condition of the corresponding state of mind. History abounds with examples of incredibly cruel actions that have had their basis in the fascination exerted by a particular political or religious ideal, leading to a thorough dissociation from basic qualities like kindness and compassion (at times in combination with relegating to some higher authority the responsibility for the harm inflicted on others). Other examples of no less atrocious events show the opposite side of the same coin, when wallowing in emotions takes place in complete dissociation from the rational capacities of the mind. The present practice works against the grain of the tendency of dissociation, based on the groundwork preparation of embodied awareness and clear recognition of the feeling tone of experience.
This in turn brings out the significance of the three satipaṭṭhānas explored so far and the importance of practising them in conjunction rather than in isolation from each other. It is precisely through the preparatory work done so far in the somatic and affective domain that the present satipaṭṭhāna acquires its full potential. Mindfulness cultivated in this way can be visualized as opening up the communication channels between these different domains. It offers a point of integration of the rational and emotional dimensions of ourselves. This takes place by giving each an equal hearing in such a way that both can make their contribution to a complete assessment of a particular situation and to finding the appropriate response to it. In this way, intuition and reasoning come to a point of balance, based on the support provided by mindfulness. This results from the dynamics of practice underlying the first three satipaṭṭhānas.'
(Satipaṭṭhāna Meditation: A Practice Guide by Bhikkhu Anālayo, ch 7)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 26th, 2019 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Express your Zen in 10 words.
Content:
Astus wrote:
The cat cut in two plays with an ox tail.

Also:

"One, two, three, four, five,
Six, seven, eight, nine, ten."
(Zen Sand, 10.30, p 373)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 20th, 2019 at 5:35 PM
Title: Re: Introductory books on basic or general Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna (Tibetan Buddhism)
Content:
Stephen18 said:
I know Theravāda very, very well, but need to know far more Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna than I do now.

Astus wrote:
Since you know Theravada, I recommend you start with the Vimalakirti Sutra ( https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/sutra-queen-%C5%9Br%C4%ABm%C4%81l%C4%81-lions-roar-and-vimalak%C4%ABrti-sutra; http://84000.co/doc/vimalakirti/Vimalakirti%20Book_E_screen-170724.pdf ).

Other notable introductory works:

The Lotus Sutra ( https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/lotus-sutra-revised-second-edition )
The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana ( https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/awakening-faith )
The Summary of the Great Vehicle ( https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/summary-great-vehicle-revised-second-edition )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattvacary%C4%81vat%C4%81ra
The Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch( https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/platform-sutra-sixth-patriarch )
Buddhism of Wisdom & Faith: Pure Land Principles and Practice ( https://www.ymba.org/books/buddhism-wisdom-faith-pure-land-principles-and-practice )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 15th, 2019 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
What is enough learning without being too much or too little? Too much then we will keep remembering what memorized. Too little not enough understanding for the job.

Astus wrote:
There cannot be too much learning, only the obstacle of staying with mere conceptual knowledge without in depth understanding and meticulous application in practice.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 15th, 2019 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Topic: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
White Lotus said:
when there is an absence of personal self seen within-without who or what possesses consciousness? how can we say there is anything to be impermanent or dependent upon anything?

Astus wrote:
There is no owner, never has been, as it is merely a false concept, therefore consciousness does not require the idea of an owner to function.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 13th, 2019 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts versus Nature.
Content:
LastLegend said:
You see nature in thoughts or of thoughts?

Astus wrote:
Nature means what things are like, so it is not some separate thing, but a description/quality of things.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 13th, 2019 at 7:25 PM
Title: Re: in practice chan do I need teacher !
Content:
Taikor.Taikun said:
Is that correct?

Astus wrote:
Doesn't sound like that. The various beliefs about spirits are usually local folklore and not strictly Buddhist ideas.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 13th, 2019 at 4:46 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts versus Nature.
Content:
Astus wrote:
There is no nature apart from thoughts, it's the nature of thoughts - i.e. their impermanent, impersonal, empty nature - that one has to recognise in order to relinquish clinging to concepts.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 13th, 2019 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in a lifetime ---how?
Content:
Supramundane said:
Do you believe this is possible?

Astus wrote:
Very much. Those schools who talk of buddhahood in this life base this on the understanding that 'this mind is buddha', so practically buddhahood means the ending of all attachments, the goal of all Buddhists. If the elimination of clinging were not possible in this life, then it would never be possible.

Supramundane said:
if you put all that you know about the Dharma into practice, can you achieve it?

Astus wrote:
With right view comes right cultivation, and with right cultivation comes right enlightenment.

Supramundane said:
A side question ---  can you achieve Buddhahood even though your Master has not?

Astus wrote:
The teacher must be able to impart the right view. Cultivation is up to each individual.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 1st, 2019 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: How to Read Sutras? Split from "is the tathagatagarbha true?"
Content:
Matt J said:
Many sutras, with a few exceptions, seem to me to very long, dense, and theoretical

Astus wrote:
When a Dharma teaching, in a sutra or anywhere else, seems theoretical, then there is a meaning and purpose to discover. Especially those texts already translated to English somehow remained particularly important for the tradition, so they are meaningful to some groups. To learn why specific texts are more important than others one just has to look at the school transmitting it. For instance, the Samadhiraja Sutra is important for the Kagyupas because Gampopa used it as a reference work, and while the sutra has some nicely worded stanzas, it does not reveal any novel teaching one wouldn't find elsewhere. Otherwise, as with mostly all Buddhist teachings, one has to familiarise oneself with the technical terminology in order to recognise the message a particular text carries.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 21st, 2019 at 3:33 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Hell seems a bit much
Content:
truthb said:
Looking at the Hell realms, and it seems incomphrehensible to me that someone could do enough bad things in one lifetime to warrant 1 billion years of  torture.... and that is the shortest term in a hell realm, some are MUCH longer.

Astus wrote:
'There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in [contemplating] the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.'
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.099.than.html )

'This fifth category means the maturation of a big result from a small karma For example, regarding nonvirtuous deeds, it is said that one will experience a kalpa in the hell realm for each instant of negative thought Engaging in the Conduct of Bodhisattvas says:
"The Buddha has said that whoever bears an evil thought
Against a benefactor such as that bodhisattva
Will remain in hell for as many aeons
As there were evil thoughts"'
(Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 120)

'Therefore, solidify the certainty that even the subtlest of virtuous and nonvirtuous actions follow you like shadows and produce both great happiness and great suffering. Then, strive to cultivate even the subtlest of virtues and to eliminate even the subtlest of sins and infractions.'
(The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment, vol 1, p 212)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 18th, 2019 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
ItsRaining said:
Later Chan teachers seemed to have a mistaken idea of what 知 meant, they took it to mean 知解 or conceptual understanding whereas Zongmi and Shenhui both made it clera that this 知 had a closer meaning to 智 or wisdom.

Astus wrote:
Do you have an example for that? To me it rather seems that conceiving such an ultimate awareness/knowing is itself a conceptual understanding, and it's not that people mistook what Shenhui and Zongmi meant.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, October 12th, 2019 at 6:24 PM
Title: Re: Anyone Come Close to Enlightenment Yet?
Content:
Mantrik said:
Do you have a source?

Astus wrote:
In the Buddha's very first discourse:

“So long, bhikkhus, as my knowledge and vision of these Four Noble Truths as they really are in their three phases and twelve aspects was not thoroughly purified in this way, I did not claim to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans. But when my knowledge and vision of these Four Noble Truths as they really are in their three phases and twelve aspects was thoroughly purified in this way, then I claimed to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its devas, Mara, and Brahma, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans. The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is the liberation of my mind. This is my last birth. Now there is no more renewed existence.’”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi; see also the https://suttacentral.net/sn56.12/en/bodhi )

Another good example: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.012.ntbb.html.
See also: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.027.than.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, October 12th, 2019 at 4:07 PM
Title: Re: Anyone Come Close to Enlightenment Yet?
Content:
hkvanx said:
I am just curious if anyone has come close or reached enlightenment yet.

Astus wrote:
There are several stages of enlightenment. First, for people who begin to learn about the Dharma, an important step - that divides ordinary beings from noble ones - is the experiential confirmation of the validity of the teachings.

'the initial realization of the nature of the mind is the first breakthrough. It’s a very important point in all Buddhist schools. At that moment, you cease to be an ordinary person. You become in Buddhist parlance an arya, a noble one. It doesn’t mean you are finished. It doesn’t mean you are a high level bodhisattva. We can fall back from this. But still, this is a big breakthrough. We now understand what is true and what is not true. We don’t have to take it all on faith any more. It is a direct nondual experience. The point is that it is very easy. It’s not difficult, and it’s not something that can only be attained after years and years of practice.'
(Reflections on a Mountain Lake by Tenzin Palmo, p 191)

The one who attained the initial breakthrough is also called a stream-entrer ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81panna ).

“Subhūti, what do you think? Does a practitioner who has attained the level of srota-āpanna think: ‘I have attained the realization of the srota-āpanna?’”
Subhūti said, “No, World-honored One. And why not? Because the name srota-āpanna means ‘stream-enterer,’ and there is in fact no stream to be entered. One does not enter form, sound, odor, taste, touch, or concepts. Therefore one is called a srota-āpanna.”
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 9)

hkvanx said:
How long did it take to do so?
What is your meditation/study routine?
What does it feel like?
How do you know when you get there?
Did you have to live a certain lifestyle (monastery, vegetarian, etc)?

Astus wrote:
For all those topics and more you should look into teachings on the path. How the path is delineated, however, varies between traditions, because it is often modified according to the techniques used. Nevertheless, the basics are the same, as it's always about the elimination of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleshas_%28Buddhism%29. So instead of focusing on mystical and supernatural experiences, look at how greed, anger, and delusion diminish and disappear, while generosity, compassion, and wisdom grow and blossom.

"When — by following a life of precept & practice, a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth — one's unskillful mental qualities increase while one's skillful mental qualities decline: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitless. But when — by following a life of precept & practice, a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth — one's unskillful mental qualities decline while one's skillful mental qualities increase: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitful."
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.078.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, October 12th, 2019 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
recognize in us the part that knows that’s not relying on aggregates.

Astus wrote:
Recognising what knows is fine, but it's not something outside the aggregates, but rather the aggregate called consciousness, and as such it is impermanent and dependently originated. To assume cognisance beyond the aggregates is another form of assuming a self. Rather, to recognise what knows must include recognising it as fabricated and unreliable.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 11th, 2019 at 3:25 PM
Title: Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
It doesn’t have be followed by other skandhas if followed then that would be grasping.

Astus wrote:
There might be some terminological confusion here. The functioning of the aggregates is not a problem, furthermore, you don't (and generally can't) remove or stop the aggregates. Also, the universal mental factors (cetasika/caitasika) like feeling (vedana), perception (sanna/samjna), and volition (cetana) are always present, and they directly correspond to the first three mental aggregates.

LastLegend said:
When consciousness isn’t followed by intention and other skandhas, it’s in the state of clarity or pure consciousness state. That’s where we want to be because it’s closest to “seeing” nature there. We can start training there at consciousness simply recognizes and let it not lead by other skandhas. If consciousness could clearly discern other skandhas that would good.

Astus wrote:
The usual way to contemplate the aggregates is to recognise their individual and general characteristics, where the individual refers to the functions of the aggregate (e.g. good/bad/neutral feeling), and the general that it's impermanent, suffering, and not self. This can be done by all five of the aggregates, and that means that consciousness has no special position but it has to be recognised as just as empty and dependent as the others. Or to point to the traditional method, the cultivation of the four bases of mindfulness (satipatthana/smrtyupasthana) is the way.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 11th, 2019 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
Denial itself is still a view because that’s the work of skandhas. What we want to do is surpass skandhas.

Astus wrote:
So it is, taking negation as a position is no better than taking affirmation. The question is what can help us move on from any object of clinging.

'The buddhas said “I am.”
They taught as well that self does not exist.
They also said that self
And no-self are completely nonexistent.'
(MMK 18.6, tr Padmakara)

In the end, to let go of the aggregates, to eliminate attachment, one has to recognise that they are empty. It is not really surpassing, but the end of clinging, as there is nowhere else to be beyond the aggregates.

'When you’ve left the three realms where would you go?'
(Record of Linji, p 23, tr Sasaki)

LastLegend said:
If thought is simply known as thought or view simply as view, then no issue but usually skandhas don’t keep it that simple.

Astus wrote:
Well, better not make an issue of whatever comes up, then how could one be fooled?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 11th, 2019 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
it’s not a thing yet it knows or any object concept imaginable. We are it! But we also always try get it with thinking concept or a location. No! We can’t even see with eyes yet through eyes everything is super clear HD if you will. It’s characteristicless but still knows the unborn knowing!. STILL KNOWS that’s all. That’s why it’s not conceivable! We are it!

Astus wrote:
Consciousness, i.e. what knows, is conventionally not without characteristics, as it arises with its object, and performs several functions of perceiving, interpreting, relating, etc. quite quickly. Of course, it is good practice to take the position of the observer, to distance oneself mentally from both external and internal phenomena, however, it's still just a temporary technique that eventually has to be let go of. To do that, it should eventually become clear that even the most distilled, pure, peaceful, and seemingly independent watcher/awareness/knowing/witness/mind is an unsustainable and painful identity.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 11th, 2019 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
If you can translate Mr. Astus.

Astus wrote:
Sorry, I don't know Vietnamese. However, the concept of inconceivable as referenced in that article is not about anything absolute but literally what cannot be conceived, as stated in the https://suttacentral.net/an4.77/en/sujato.
As for the inconceivable as emptiness, calling the very absence of anything graspable an absolute is surely a convoluted way to speak, but not unheard of.

'[That which] has transcended the duality of being and non-being without, however, having transcended anything at all; that which is not knowledge or knowable^ not existent nor nonexistent, not one nor many, not both nor neither; [that which is] without foundation, unmanifest, inconceivable, incomparable; that which arises not, disappears not, is not to be annihilated and is not permanent, that is [Reality] which is like space [and] not within the range of words [or] knowledge. The fact of dependent co-origination is exactly what You maintain to be emptiness. Of that kind is the true principle and the Tathagata is like that.'
( http://lirs.ru/do/sutra/Nagarjuna.Acintyastava.C.Lindtner.pdf, 37-40, tr Lindtner)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 11th, 2019 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
anything arises in mind all we have to do is be clear!

Astus wrote:
Do you mean the method of nonthought (vô niệm 無念)?

'If in seeing all the dharmas, the mind is not defiled or attached, this is nonthought. [The mind’s] functioning pervades all locations, yet it is not attached to all the locations. Just purify the fundamental mind, causing the six consciousnesses to emerge from the six [sensory] gates, [causing one to be] without defilement or heterogeneity within the six types of sensory data (literally, the “six dusts”), autonomous in the coming and going [of mental phenomena], one’s penetrating function without stagnation. This is the samādhi of prajñā, the autonomous emancipation. This is called the practice of nonthought.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, p 33-34)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 10th, 2019 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Zen 6th Patriarch Statement regarding nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
Yet the knowing quality is present and infused with consciousness.

Astus wrote:
He did not add that. The term knowing/awareness (zhi 知) was what Heze Shenhui and Guifeng Zongmi propagated, while others ridiculed. So the Platform Sutra (ch 8, BDK ed, p 78) says this of Shenhui: “I told you it was without name or title, but you have called it the fundamental source, the buddha-nature. You’ve just covered your head with thatch. You’ve become a follower with only discriminative understanding.”

Hyujeong wrote (Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 239-240):

'Knowing (知) and understanding (解) are the great faults of the Buddhadharma. Heze, who was an illegitimate heir of Caoqi, used them. The Vimalakīrti(nirdeśa) sūtra says, “Remove what it has.” The Lotus Sutra says, “Remove the shit and take the wages.” These are all states of knowing and understanding. For this reason knowing and understanding are obstacles to correct views, like rancid rice offered to starving ghosts, like bad water being used to pollute the field of the mind, which is not as good as looking at Zhaozhou’s character mu.'


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 7th, 2019 at 3:44 PM
Title: Re: Mind transcends death
Content:
Rick said:
Do these play well together?

Astus wrote:
Because phenomena are depedently originated, there is no essence that is born, endures, or ceases. To say that mind, what is simply a category of numerous phenomena, endures because it is unborn, makes sense only when it refers to its apparent continuity, that is, mind functions because it has no fixed substance.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 7th, 2019 at 6:44 AM
Title: Re: Mind transcends death
Content:
steveb1 said:
how does a Buddhist or anyone else who holds this view defend it against materialist-reductionist neuroscientists and philosophers?

Astus wrote:
"‘The soul is the same as the body’—I have left undeclared. ‘The soul is one thing and the body another’—I have left undeclared."
( https://suttacentral.net/mn63/en/bodhi, cf. https://suttacentral.net/mn72/en/sujato )

The problem with materialism, called the Lokayata or Carvaka view in Indian texts, is that it is annihilationism, assuming a self that will be destroyed at the time of death. The other version, separate soul and body, means the various views of eternalism, hence not acceptable either. The Buddha described life in terms of the five aggregates, eighteen elements, and dependent origination, and that's how one avoids both extreme views.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 7th, 2019 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Mind transcends death
Content:
Rick said:
Conventionally, what does cause/sustain mind?

Astus wrote:
Greed, anger, and ignorance.

Rick said:
Ultimately?

Astus wrote:
There is nothing to sustain.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 7th, 2019 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Mind transcends death
Content:
Astus wrote:
Ultimately everything is by nature unborn, it does not mean that there is anything enduring from one moment to the next. The mind is quite obviously impermanent, thoughts and emotions changing all the time. The mind "transcends" death, the demise of the body, because it is not caused nor sustained by the body.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 4th, 2019 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: 他力/"Other-power" in 淨土十疑論/"Ten Doubts"
Content:
Queequeg said:
Its also standard Mahayana convention that women are not present in the pure lands.

Astus wrote:
Abhirati, the land of Akshobhya, has women and men.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 4th, 2019 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: 他力/"Other-power" in 淨土十疑論/"Ten Doubts"
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Does this text really say there are no women in the Western Paradise?

Queequeg said:
I believe the Pure Land Sutras say there are no women in Sukhavati. Women can't awaken...  according to the Patriarchs...

Astus wrote:
The so called three PL sutras do not say such a thing. See this topic on the issue: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=4583.

On the other hand, there are older versions of the Larger Sutra where the 2nd vow does exclude women, e.g. T12n362p301a27:

'The Second Vow: If, when I attain Buddhahood, may there be no women existing in my country. Women who desire to be born in my country will forthwith transform their bodies into those of men. All of the human beings and the species that flit and wriggle in the countless heavens who are reborn in my country will be transformed on a lotus flower in the pond of seven treasures, and they will become numberless bodhisattvas or arhats when they mature. Only if this vow is fulfilled, will I attain Boddhahood. If this vow is not fulfilled, may I never attain Buddhahood.'
( https://mu.repo.nii.ac.jp/?action=repository_action_common_download&item_id=347&item_no=1&attribute_id=22&file_no=1 )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 4th, 2019 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Cittamatra, Yogacara and Vijnanavada the same thing?
Content:
Queequeg said:
That would be wrong view. I think some interpret it that way, though.

Astus wrote:
What else is there that is apart from the realm of experiences that would not be a mere abstract concept?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 4th, 2019 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Cittamatra, Yogacara and Vijnanavada the same thing?
Content:
Queequeg said:
From what I'm gathering, the Mind-Only as opposed to Consciousness-Only difference is not really addressed by this.

Astus wrote:
That approach should rather draw both positions on the same page of application on the path to liberation. One main difference in this context between Mind Only and Consciousness Only is whether there is one final liberation or two, as the former included terminology that apparently was more fitting to prevalent ideas in China about human nature, plus there were not any "sravakas" to deal with unlike in India where it has remained the mainstream form of Buddhism. So, as I take it, one can take a historical approach and try to understand what various doctrines existed and what they meant to people then, or one can take a practical approach of recognising the utility of each teaching with the assumption that each author had the right intention of eliminating defilements. If it's the historical one taken here, then it should be first of all recognised that Fazang's Mind Only is called so to oppose Xuanzang, but after the rapid decline of the popularity of the teachings transmitted from India by Xuanzang there was little sense of upholding a distinction apart from occasional biased arguments on paper only to highlight one's own teachings.

Queequeg said:
The above appears to still fall under what would be called Consciousness Only in the EA view, because its talking about experience, which suggests its localized. May not be. Maybe a little more discussion would draw this out.

Astus wrote:
What do you mean by being localised? Experience, in the quote from McLeod, simply refers to what appears as the living actuality of everything sensed directly. Would you say that Mind Only, or perhaps it's better to call it inherent enlightenment, is about an abstract universal essence?

Queequeg said:
From what I gather, that body of Vairocana is what is emphasized as the Mind in Mind-Only, where Consciousness in Consciousness-Only is the particular experience of that body.

Astus wrote:
The final position of Huayan is the interpenetration of pheneomena and phenomena, where there is no point in even mentioning emptiness at all, as whatever occurs is suchness as it is. The way I take it, this is simply another formulation of the middle way no different from what you find in the works of Asanga and Nagarjuna, and that is what makes it a genuine facet of the Dharma.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 3rd, 2019 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Cittamatra, Yogacara and Vijnanavada the same thing?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Whatever is being translated as both or either ‘mind’ or ‘experience’ in the context of the passage I quoted.

Astus wrote:
It's not a translation.

Wayfarer said:
‘Being’ as in ‘human being’.  It is a declension of the verb ‘to be’, so, a verb, although also acts as a noun.

Astus wrote:
If so, should entity be fine as well? And why use it in exchange of mind or experience?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 3rd, 2019 at 2:14 PM
Title: Re: Cittamatra, Yogacara and Vijnanavada the same thing?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The correct translation of which is "being".

Astus wrote:
The correct translation of what? Also, what sense of being, as a noun or as a verb, as existence, essence, or entity?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 3rd, 2019 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Why did Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche have long hair?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Have wife and children, therefore have long hair?

Astus wrote:
The question was, as I took it:
Nirveda said:
I'm just curious why he didn't shave it and why this wasn’t a problem under monastic rules.

Astus wrote:
Since he wasn't a monk, there was no conflict with the monastic rules.

As for the long hair specifically, Lobsang Chojor answered that: he was a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngagpa. See also: https://journals.openedition.org/ateliers/10562


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 3rd, 2019 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Cittamatra, Yogacara and Vijnanavada the same thing?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Instead of looking for ontology and epistemology - interpretations that I doubt any of the authors had in mind - all of them should rather be seen in terms of soteriology, i.e. how they guide one to liberation. As for the mind and its nature, McLeod makes this important point:

'Despite the prevalence of interpretations to the contrary, “appearances are mind” does not mean that everything that happens in the world somehow takes place in your mind, that everything that appears exists in your head or brain, or that what arises in your experience is “only” mental or psychological. All views that substantiate appearances even as mental objects are inaccurate. Equally, to say “appearances are mind” does not mean that what does arise in experience does not really exist, is not real, or is just a hallucination. Views that try to deny the validity of experience are also inaccurate.
Perhaps the confusion begins with the word mind. In English, it usually denotes the intellect or related phenomena. In Buddhism, mind means “what experiences.” Kalu Rinpoche used to say that mind means experiencing. When you are given the pointing-out instruction “What is mind?” you are actually being asked, “What is experience?”'
(Wake Up to Your Life, p 370-371)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 2nd, 2019 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Why did Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche have long hair?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche had a wife ( https://theyoginiproject.org/wisdom-dakinis/khandro-lhamo ) and several children.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 2nd, 2019 at 5:57 PM
Title: Re: Cittamatra, Yogacara and Vijnanavada the same thing?
Content:
Bristollad said:
In Chinese Buddhism, a distinction is made - read Chinese Buddhism sources to understand.

Astus wrote:
Fazang argued against Xuanzang where he claimed to represent weixin 唯心 and the other weishi 唯識 (see: Buddhist Phenomenology, p 386-387). See more on Fazang's case against Yogacara in http://imrehamar.elte.hu/downloads/ReflectingMirrors_11_207-232_HamarI.pdf.

Bristollad said:
In Tibetan Buddhism, no real difference is seen.

Astus wrote:
Mostly, but not exactly. See e.g.: The Ri-me Philosophy of Jamgon Kongtrul the Great, p 230-232.

The critical difference (between Cittamatra and Yogacara, or Cittamatra and Shentong, etc., the terms can vary) to be considered according to Mipham is whether one takes the mind as ultimately real or not.

"If the Cittamātrins’ final standpoint is the assertion that this consciousness is only a substantially existent entity inasmuch as it is the cause for all conventional phenomena appearing, and that apart from this assertion they are not claiming that it exists substantially as a truly existing entity in ultimate truth, then they are not at all in contradiction with the Mādhyamika tradition. On the other hand, if they were to assert that it is truly existent in ultimate truth, they would be contradicting the Mādhyamika approach. It seems, therefore, that it is just this particular point that needs to be examined as a source of contention (or otherwise) for the Mādhyamikas."
(A Feast of the Nectar of the Supreme Vehicle, ch 7)

It should also be noted that in China and Tibet there were different schools of thought debating each other: Huayan vs. Weishi, and Rime vs. Gelug.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 2nd, 2019 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Letting go
Content:
Simon E. said:
the idea of asking the guy at the top of a hundred foot pole sheds very little light on the issue.

Astus wrote:
An excerpt from Guo Gu's commentary on that koan:

'Practice is necessary and must be genuine. In this process, delusion must be relinquished. This means that when you get to the top of the pole, you have to jump off. When this is done, you become perfectly normal and ordinary. You realize that all along you’ve been a human. To be fully human is to be a buddha —someone who is selfless. Is this the end? No. It is the beginning of the fulfillment of wisdom and of compassion.
Chan or Zen teachers are not advocating that people commit suicide by jumping off the top of the pole. It is only a metaphor, but it points to the mind-set of one who is able to do this. Without this mind-set, this commitment to the path, you will just be a pole dancer. You may be able to do all kinds of fancy moves on the pole, going up and down, down and up, but none of that is awakening. That is essentially what some practitioners are doing. You must have the courage to relinquish what you cherish the most: the “I.”
...
“At the top of the hundred-foot pole you must step forward” means putting down all the games and tricks you can do on the pole. In terms of meditation practice, it means reaching a point where there is no longer past or future, only the present, only concentrating on the method, becoming one with the method. At this stage you have forgotten about yourself. Duality is transcended. Is that enough? No. Many practitioners, teachers included, make a big deal about nonduality. People in sports have this experience where, say, they are one with the basketball or one with the act of running. Accomplishing that is not so hard. Don’t stop there. You have to take one more step forward. Put down the oneness.
Don’t be a pole dancer! Get up that pole and take one more step. Whatever you cannot let go of is your obstruction. Whenever you cannot let go of something, it means a self-attachment is there. Even if you let go of everything— let go of that, too! If you do this, you will be able to “expose the full body of reality throughout the worlds in the ten directions,” which means that just as you are—as a human, through and through—is reality! Selfless, free: this is to manifest wisdom and compassion fully. You’ve come full circle. You discover that you didn’t die after taking that forward step. On the contrary, the whole world has come alive, and you have truly come alive, for the first time, as a human.'


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 1st, 2019 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: Letting go
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
It's more a self-help slogan than a specifically Buddhist one

Astus wrote:
Check out this Pali term: https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/encyclopedia-entries/vossagga.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 1st, 2019 at 3:46 PM
Title: Re: Cittamatra, Yogacara and Vijnanavada the same thing?
Content:
Stephen18 said:
Are Cittamatra, Yogacara and Vijnanavada exactly the same thing?

Astus wrote:
It depends on who you read. These and other terms can refer to the same thing, but some (as far as I can tell, mostly modern Tibetan Buddhists) differentiate between Cittamatra (a supposed group of unspecified people who believe that there is an ultimate mind, but practically it is mostly just the object of Madhyamaka criticism) and Yogacara (the teachings of Asanga (Maitreya) and Vasubandhu). So it's better to be specific regarding what treatise and what author one refers to then just use ambiguous terms.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 30th, 2019 at 5:59 PM
Title: Re: Letting go
Content:
Mirror said:
what does it mean to let go? How to let go?

Astus wrote:
To let go means to be without craving and attachment. Craving and attachment arises because of the misconception that the perceived object is desirable. You may also say that to take things personally is the root of clinging. Recognising that there is nothing desirable in an object, that there is nothing personal present, is when the cause of craving and attachment is removed. For example, to realise that what looks beautiful does so only because of the added conception that it is beautiful, then there is nothing in the object itself that is beautiful, while the thought of beauty is itself fictional, then there is nothing left to be attracted to. Practically speaking, one has to cultivate mindfulness of the six sense doors to see first hand how feelings can mislead the mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 29th, 2019 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Aemilius said:
How about the "forest of simsapa leaves"?

Astus wrote:
There are lots of things one can know about from the intricacies of 6th century Sasanian politics to digital signal processing, it's just that they have nothing to do with nor do they lead to liberation.

"And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them."
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 28th, 2019 at 8:20 PM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Queequeg said:
Anyway my point is, by default, in practice, not everyone is taught everything.

Astus wrote:
We are in agreement on that. What I intended to prove is that such a limit is not on the side of the teacher or the teaching, but the listener's temporary situation, hence no esoteric aspects to talk of.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 28th, 2019 at 7:10 PM
Title: Re: what is Original Mind?
Content:
Astus wrote:
What is called original mind is just the suchness of mind where there is no attachment, no self.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 28th, 2019 at 4:41 PM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Queequeg said:
What's your point?

Astus wrote:
That just because some disciples were brahmins, it doesn't mean they were more fit for higher teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 28th, 2019 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Queequeg said:
They weren't just ordinary lay persons.

Astus wrote:
The Buddha also gave the gradual teaching to "a leper named Suppabuddha, a poor, miserable wretch of a person" (see https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html ). And there were many lay disciples who achieved various levels of liberation. So, apart from being extraordinary for meeting and following the Buddha, there were all sorts of people in the householder community.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 28th, 2019 at 3:12 AM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Queequeg said:
I never said it was an esoteric teaching in principle... in practice, there are teachings withheld from some. It was apparently true in the Buddha's time, and its true now.

Astus wrote:
OK, I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page here. If you don't mind the hairsplitting, I wouldn't say withheld, more like the appropriate teachings are given/applied at the appropriate times. It follows how the Buddha taught gradually and revealed the four noble truths to his listeners when he knew their "mind was ready, pliable, rid of hindrances, joyful, and confident" (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/dn3/en/sujato ).


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 28th, 2019 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Queequeg said:
Not everyone will respond well to the 4NT. Sometimes people just need to be consoled.

Astus wrote:
And that's all well and good. It does not turn the four noble truths into an esoteric teaching.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 28th, 2019 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Queequeg said:
I have not seen it in practice.

Astus wrote:
While teachings given to large crowds may not usually touch on more difficult issues, nor get into technical details, all levels of the teachings are openly (and generally freely) available in Theravada and East Asian Mahayana temples.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 28th, 2019 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Queequeg said:
Mmmeh...

Astus wrote:
It does not mean there were hidden teachings.

See note 1306 on page 1358 of The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "This statement does not imply that there is any inherent exclusiveness or arbitrary discrimination in the Buddha’s way of presenting his teaching. But as those who remain in lay life must look after their families, possessions, and occupations, such talk leading to complete detachment would not have been appropriate for them."

And Piya Tan also states ( http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/23.9-Anathapindikovada-S-m143-piya.pdf ): "This episode may sound as if there were a strict two-tiered teaching scheme, the higher level for the renunciants only and the simpler level for the laity. No such division ever existed in the Buddha’s teaching"


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 27th, 2019 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Aemilius said:
This is a clear case of esoteric teachings in the Tipitaka.

Astus wrote:
There are no esoteric teachings in the Tipitaka.

"I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html )

"Three things shine in the open, not under cover. What three? The moon shines in the open, not under cover. The sun shines in the open, not under cover. The teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One shine in the open, not under cover."
( https://suttacentral.net/an3.131/en/sujato )

Aemilius said:
There is also the Anathapindika sutta, where it is said that the meditation of the elements is esoteric, i.e. secret. It was given to Anathapindika on his deathbed.

Astus wrote:
There is no meditation on the elements listed there, unless you count the instruction not to cling to them. There is no statement on some secret method either. What was said: “This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth.”


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 27th, 2019 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Aemilius said:
Metabolism is implicit, is what I am saying. It hasn't been made clear and explicit in the passage above or in the passage about the four elements.  How else could the body depend on the elements, be composed of the elements, or dissolve into the elements, than through metabolism?

Astus wrote:
It's an instruction on analysing the bodily elements, all the parts of the body conceived in terms of the four main qualities of solidity, liquidity, heat, and movement. Since it is a practice in observation, and metabolism happens on a cellular level, it could not be observed. Instead, those four elements mean readily perceptible qualities.

"Contemplation of the body’s earthy and watery qualities can be undertaken by observing the physical sensations of the solid and liquid parts of the body. Awareness of its fiery quality can be developed through noting variations in bodily temperature, and to some extent also by turning awareness to the processes of digestion and ageing. Air, representing the quality of motion, can be covered by directing  awareness  to  the  different  movements  that  take  place within the organism, such as the circulation of the blood or the cycle of the breaths.140The same elementary qualities can be combined in a single contemplation, by being aware of these four qualities as characteristics of each part or particle of the body."
( https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/direct-path.pdf by Bhikkhu Analayo, p 164)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 27th, 2019 at 5:47 PM
Title: Re: Origination and dissolution phenomena in the body
Content:
Aemilius said:
This passage of the phenomena of origination and dissolution in the body is taken from the Satipatthana sutta, (translation of Thanissaro bhikkhu). What this passage really means is all the processes included in metabolism of the body, like the catabolic and anabolic processes, etc...

Astus wrote:
What passage? Both https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN10.html and https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN22.html has simply:

"And further… just as a dexterous butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk reflects on this very body—however it stands, however it is disposed—in terms of properties: ‘In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.’
In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that ‘There is a body’ is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by [not clinging to] anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself."

As e.g. https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN28.html and https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN140.html explain, those four elements are basic qualities as hardness, liquidity, heat, and movement. Where is the metabolism part?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 27th, 2019 at 5:14 PM
Title: Re: Agamas and Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
That link doesn’t have agama sutra

Astus wrote:
Some examples:

Toh 287 - Mindfulness of the True Dharma (dam chos dran pa nyer bzhag / saddharmasmṛtyupasthāna)
Toh 316 - The Sūtra on the Four Truths (bden pa bzhi'i mdo / catuḥsatyasūtra)
Toh 326 - Chapters of Utterances on Specific Topics (ched du brjod pa'i tshoms / udānavarga)
Toh 331 - The Sūtra of the Moon (zla ba'i mdo / candrasūtra)
Toh 334 - The Sūtra of Nandika (dga' ba can gyi mdo / nandikasūtra)
Toh 337 - The Sūtra of the Wheel of Dharma (chos kyi ’khor lo’i mdo / Dharmacakrasūtra)
Toh 338 - Classification of Acts (las rnam 'byed / karmavibhaṅga)
Toh 339 - The Dharma Scripture on the Classification of Acts (las rnam par 'gyur ba chos kyi gzhung / karmavibhaṅgadharmagrantha)
Toh 352 - The Sūtra of Brahmā’s Net (tshangs pa'i dra ba'i mdo / brahmajālasūtra)

See also:

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/dq
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=986


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 26th, 2019 at 6:47 PM
Title: Re: Agamas and Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
ryan_oliveira said:
The āgamas are part of the Tibetan Buddhist canon?

Astus wrote:
You can find the "Śrāvakayāna works" in the http://read.84000.co/section/O1JC114941JC14668.html from Toh 287 to 359. But the agamas are generally what are found in the Chinese Canon, as there are whole collections (Dirgha-agama, Madhyama-agama, etc.).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 22nd, 2019 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Death Is Nirvana?
Content:
hkvanx said:
Death should not be looked upon negatively as it is currently feared by many of us.

Astus wrote:
One can't help but fear death as long as it is understood as the annihilation of oneself.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 22nd, 2019 at 6:10 PM
Title: Re: Desire/Suffering Is a Water Faucet That Can't be Turned Off
Content:
hkvanx said:
We are programmed to constantly crave and seek food, sex,etc.
Buddha identified suffering is due to desire....which is ingrain in our very human nature.

Astus wrote:
Humans, under normal conditions, have the freedom to choose whether to act or not, whether to pursue an impulse or not, therefore it is not valid to say that they are forced by anything to submit to craving.
Buddhism is based on the understanding that both the Buddha and many of his disciples have successfully attained liberation from suffering, and the same attainment is available today as well to whoever is willing.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 12th, 2019 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: The Boss! Zen!
Content:
LastLegend said:
The question is what the boss looks like?

Astus wrote:
What boss?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 12th, 2019 at 3:30 PM
Title: Re: The Boss! Zen!
Content:
Astus wrote:
"If you say the immediate mirror awareness is correct, or that there is something else beyond the mirror awareness, this is a delusion. If you keep dwelling in the immediate mirror awareness, this too is the same as delusion; it is called the mistake of naturalism. To say the present mirror awareness is one's own Buddha is words of measurement, words of calculation - it is like the crying of a jackal. This is still being stuck as in glue at the gate. Originally you did not acknowledge that innate knowing and awareness are your own Buddha, and went running elsewhere to seek Buddha. So you needed a teacher to tell you about innate knowing and awareness as a medicine to cure this disease of hastily seeking outside. Once you no longer seek outwardly, the disease is cured and it is necessary to remove the medicine. If you cling fixedly to innate knowing awareness, this is a disease of meditation. Such is a thoroughgoing disciple; like water turned to ice, all the ice is water, but it can hardly be expected to quench thirst."
(Extensive Record of Baizhang, tr Cleary, p 33-34)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 12th, 2019 at 3:24 PM
Title: Re: Cicada
Content:
LastLegend said:
When it’s quiet, cicada can be heard.

Astus wrote:
It can't be heard even in a storm, how much less in silence!


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 9th, 2019 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Discrimination is self
Content:
LastLegend said:
So a division for us is not a simple division a table versus a chair, or you and me. For us means a link of chained responses of aggregates that involves suffering and delusion.

Astus wrote:
Therefore it is not simple discrimination that is the problem, but rather a specific form of mistake that assumes a permanent substance. So it can actually be said that suffering comes from lack of correct discrimination.

LastLegend said:
I was talking about Arahant’s samadhi.

Astus wrote:
Those who posit a special realm for the arhats describe it practically as a comatose state with no mental activities, quite similar to the asamjnisattvas.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 9th, 2019 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Discrimination is self
Content:
LastLegend said:
If a division arises or created, there is subject and object, that’s self or discrimination of consciousness.

Astus wrote:
What sort of division, what sort of discrimination? A buddha should very well be able to tell the left from the right, but has no self-view nor self-clining.

LastLegend said:
Someone can enter samadhi by severing suffering responses to sensations/feelings and severing linking perceptions, and this person has exited samsara.

Astus wrote:
The temporary absence of manifest afflictions does not mean liberation, otherwise babies should be considered buddhas.

LastLegend said:
But this person has not surpassed consciousness-still clinging to its division (subject and object).

Astus wrote:
Various meditative experiences are well within the realm of samsara.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 9th, 2019 at 3:10 PM
Title: Re: Discrimination is self
Content:
LastLegend said:
Some quoted scriptures consciousness is aware, but this awareness still has a division/discrimination of subject and object hence self still operates; though clearly differentiating is practice.

Astus wrote:
Ignorance is not a basic quality of consciousness, or any other aggregates, but it is the clinging to the aggregates that makes one assume a self. Only fully liberated beings have no more identification with the skandhas.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 2nd, 2019 at 4:55 PM
Title: Re: Cessation in the Shravakayana/Pali Canon
Content:
smcj said:
This conundrum is addressed in the Mahayana by positing additional consciousnesses that are absent in the Pali. Specifically the 8th consciousness which goes between lifetime to lifetime.

Astus wrote:
All 8 consciousnesses in Yogacara are included within the consciousness aggregate.

'What is the definition of the aggregate of consciousness (vijnanaskandhavyavasthana)? It is the mind (citta), the mental organ (manas) and also consciousness (Vijnana).'
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 21, tr Boin-Webb; see also Vasubandhu in Inner Science of Buddhist Practice, p 239-240)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 31st, 2019 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Thich Thien An on buddhanusmrti as zen meditation
Content:
Bodhisattva509 said:
What are your qualifications as a teacher, if you don't mind me asking?

Astus wrote:
I can quote some scriptures and treatises.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 31st, 2019 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Thich Thien An on buddhanusmrti as zen meditation
Content:
Sentient Light said:
There is a uniqueness to the buddhanusmrti samadhi in that it is the Buddha that is the object.

Astus wrote:
What difference does the object of awareness makes, when the only goal is to achieve one-pointed concentration? While the object can initially help, when one-pointedness is achieved, the object becomes irrelevant.

Sentient Light said:
When samadhi is attained through Buddha-mindfulness, it is not simply quiescence that is achieved. When the adept is absorbed into the mind-made Buddha, this is precisely the direct recognition of one's own Buddhanature--it is kien tinh.

Astus wrote:
Why would that be? With concentration one can eventually attain various levels of dhyana. To turn concentration into wisdom, one must contemplate emptiness. To be absorbed in one's thought of a buddha, that in itself lacks insight and is not free from clinging.

'Whatever I think, that I see. The mind creates the Buddha. The mind itself sees him. The mind is the Buddha. The mind is the Tathāgata. The mind is my body, the mind sees the Buddha. The mind does not itself know the mind, the mind does not itself see the mind. A mind with conceptions is stupidity, a mind without conceptions is nirvana. There is nothing in these dharmas that can be enjoyed; they are all made by thinking. If thinking is nothing but empty, then anything that is thought is also utterly nonexistent.'
(Pratyutpannasamadhi Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 26)

'To be enlightened to this Dharma is to be without thought. To be without recollection, without attachment, to not activate the false and deceptive—this is to allow one’s self[-suchness]-nature to function. To use wisdom to contemplate all the dharmas without grasping or rejecting is to see the nature and accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood.'
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 31)

Sentient Light said:
Are you trying to suggest that samadhi is not a core component of zen praxis? Or just that samadhi does not necessarily mean seeing one's true nature?

Astus wrote:
It depends on what you take samadhi to be. If it is a one-pointed mind, then it can help in achieving tranquillity, but is insufficient for wisdom. As for the core components of zen praxis, they are no-thought (vô niệm 無念), no-character (vô tương 無相), and no-abiding (vô trú 無住).


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 30th, 2019 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Thich Thien An on buddhanusmrti as zen meditation
Content:
Bodhisattva509 said:
Are you claiming that his teachings deviated from traditional Thien teachings?

Astus wrote:
I'm questioning if single-pointed concentration can be qualified as zen meditation.

'The master addressed the assembly, "In this teaching of seated meditation, one fundamentally does not concentrate on mind, nor does one concentrate on purity, nor is it motionlessness."'
(Platform Sutra, ch 5, BDK ed, p 45)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 30th, 2019 at 5:17 PM
Title: Re: Thich Thien An on buddhanusmrti as zen meditation
Content:
Sentient Light said:
No longer is the Buddha the object and the meditator the subject, but the meditator becomes one with the Buddha. When this happens, this is the state of "One Mind Samadhi," and here there is no longer any distinction between Zen and Pure Land, self-power or other-power, wisdom or compassion, for all has become merged into the brightness of the Infinite Light.
[...] Like the Buddha, we should extend our love and compassion outward to all alike, to everyone everywhere, without making any distinctions. Again, if we choose to meditate on the Buddha's wisdom, we imagine the light of wisdom radiating from the figure of the Buddha and growing larger and larger and brighter and brighter until it merges with our own inner light. At this point we and the Buddha become one. When this stage is reached, then this world will become transformed into the Pure Land, this Samsara become Nirvana, and all the bliss and purity of the Western paradise become realized in the here and now of everyday life. Here the Zen and Pure Land schools meet in that common center from which they both emanate, the One Mind of Buddha, which is our own true and permanent Essence of Mind.

Astus wrote:
That is (mis)taking zen to be a mind absorbed in a single object, however, such concentration practices are found in many systems even outside Buddhism.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 29th, 2019 at 7:12 PM
Title: Re: Cessation in the Shravakayana/Pali Canon
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
"without remainder" is anupādisesā from anupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu or "the Nibbāna-element with no residue left" in https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland.

Astus wrote:
Ven. Ñāṇananda comments on the Nibbānadhātu Sutta in https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Nibbana_Vol_4.pdf (Sermon 18):

'At this point, we have to admit that the term diṭṭhadhammika is associated with sa-upādisesā Nibbānadhātu while the term samparāyika is taken over to refer to anupādisesā Nibbānadhātu. However, the fact that Nibbāna is explicitly defined elsewhere as the cessation of existence, bhavanirodho Nibbānaṃ, must not be forgotten. If Nibbāna is the cessation of existence, there is nothing left for the arahant to experience hereafter.
Nibbāna is solely the realization of the cessation of existence or the end of the process of becoming. So there is absolutely no question of a hereafter for the arahant.'
(p 398)

'The popular interpretation of the term anupādisesā Nibbānadhātu leaves room for some absolutist conceptions of an asaṅkhata dhātu, unprepared element, as the destiny of the arahant. After his parinibbāna, he is supposed to enter this particular Nibbānadhātu. But here, in this discourse, it is explained in just one sentence: Tassa idheva, bhikkhave, sabbavedayitāni anabhinanditāni sītibhavissanti, "in the case of him" (that is the arahant) ", O! monks, all what is felt, not having been delighted in, will cool off here itself."
This cooling off happens just before death, without igniting another spark of life.'
(p 400-401)

And a summary from Sermon 19:

'Towards the end of our last sermon, we started commenting on the two terms sa-upādisesā Nibbānadhātu and anupādisesā Nibbānadhātu. Our discussion was based on a discourse, which we quoted from the Itivuttaka. We also drew attention to a certain analogy found in the discourses, which shows that the two Nibbāna elements actually represent two stages of the extinguishment implicit in the term Nibbāna.
When no more firewood is added to a blazing fire, flames would subside and the logs of wood already burning go on smouldering as embers. After some time, they too get extinguished and become ashes. With regard to the arahant, too, we have to think in terms of this analogy. It can be taken as an illustration of the two Nibbāna elements. To the extent the living arahant is free from fresh graspings, lust, hate and delusions do not flare up. But so long as he has to bear the burden of this organic combination, this physical frame, the arahant has to experience certain afflictions and be receptive to likes and dislikes, pleasures and pains.
In spite of all that, mentally he has access to the experience of the extinguishment he has already won. It is in that sense that the arahant is said to be in the Nibbāna element with residual clinging in his everyday life, while taking in the objects of the five senses.
At the last moment of the arahant's life, even this organic body that had been grasped as upādiṇṇa has to be abandoned. It is at that moment, when he is going to detach his mind from the body, that anupādisesā parinibbānadhātu comes in.'
(p 403)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 29th, 2019 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Mind versus Nature
Content:
Simon E. said:
We are still no nearer a consensus on what ‘mind’ signifies.

Astus wrote:
Mind is not a specific technical word. As for some definitions:

"And why, bhikkhus, do you call it consciousness? ‘It cognizes, ’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness. And what does it cognize? It cognizes sour, it cognizes bitter, it cognizes pungent, it cognizes sweet, it cognizes sharp, it cognizes mild, it cognizes salty, it cognizes bland. ‘It cognizes,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called consciousness."
( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi )

'What is the aggregate of consciousness (vijñānaskandha)? Consciousness distinguishes (pratijānīte) the dharmas as blue (nīla), yellow (pīta), red (lohita), white (avadāta), etc.
This consciousness is sixfold: visual consciousness (cakṣurvijñāna), auditory consciousness (śrotravijñāna), olfactory (ghrāṇa-), gustatory (jihvā-), tactile (kāya-) and mental (manoivijñāna).
What is the visual consciousness? Being based on the visual sense-faculty (cakṣurindriya), it cognizes visibles – this is the visual consciousness. Similarly for the auditory olfactory, gustatory tactile mental (consciousnesses) – being based on the mental mental sense-faculty, it cognizes the dharmas – this is the mental consciousness.
Such is the aggregate of consciousness.'
(Amrtarasa, V.I.5, tr Chodron)

'Consciousness is the impression relative to each object.
It is the mental organ.
It is seven dhatus.
The six consciousnesses and the manas.'
(Abhidharmakosa I.16, tr Pruden)

'What is the characteristic of consciousness? Knowing is the characteristic of consciousness. It is consciousness by means of which one knows (visible) form, sound, odor, taste, the tangible, mental objects and various realms.'
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 4, tr Boin-Webb)

'What is consciousness? It is awareness of an object. It is also [referred to as] thought and mind, because it is diverse and because mind serves as its support.'
(Pancaskandhaprakarana, in Inner Science of Buddhist Practice, p 239)

'Consciousness means "perception." Here, in the Treatise, the word "consciousness" also includes mental activities, because they are without doubt associated with the former.'
(Cheng Weishi Lun, BDK ed, p 9-10)

'The aggregate of consciousness is that which individually cognizes the object-identity of all phenomena.'
(Gateway to Knowledge, 1.135, tr Kunsang)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 29th, 2019 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Cessation in the Shravakayana/Pali Canon
Content:
smcj said:
So he includes his understanding of what the Hinayana teaches.

Astus wrote:
No Sravaka Sutra Pitaka nor Abhidharma Pitaka were translated to Tibetan, and Gampopa had only to very little, like the Abhidharmakosabhasyam. If you want to know what the Sarvastivadins taught, you can find that mostly in Chinese, some parts in Sanskrit, and what is available in English.

smcj said:
I use Hinayana here specifically to refer to the extinct Northern Indian school(s) that the Tibetans got the transmission from. Not necessarily the Thereavadans.

Astus wrote:
I know of no Tibetan who were a representative of any Abhidharma school. Only the bhikshu ordination got transmitted to Tibet, but not much of the teachings.

Recommended for this topic: http://theosnet.net/dzyan/stanzas/sarvastivada_conception_of_nirvana.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 28th, 2019 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Cessation in the Shravakayana/Pali Canon
Content:
smcj said:
And just to be clear, we are discussing the post mortem stays of an Arhat, not a Buddha.

Astus wrote:
In Abhidharma schools (not Mahayana) there is no difference.

smcj said:
Once I get home I’ll look for Gompopa’s Mahayana view of Arhats, which does see a post mortem continuation.

Astus wrote:
That's Gampopa's view, that agrees with the late Mahayana doctrine of Ekayana, not Abhidharma.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 28th, 2019 at 6:49 PM
Title: Re: Cessation in the Shravakayana/Pali Canon
Content:
Astus wrote:
Nirvana is the cessation of greed, hatred, and ignorance (see the whole of https://suttacentral.net/sn43 ). The reason that the Buddha did not teach annihilation is that there is nobody to cease to exist (see e.g. https://suttacentral.net/sn22.85/en/bodhi & https://suttacentral.net/sn22.86/en/bodhi ). Furthermore, inquiries into the existence and non-existence of nirvana is not understanding what nirvana is (see e.g. https://suttacentral.net/an4.173/en/sujato & https://suttacentral.net/mn72/en/horner ).

Ven. Ñāṇananda has a great series of talks on the subject of nibbana: https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 28th, 2019 at 5:19 PM
Title: Re: Mind versus Nature
Content:
Astus wrote:
The nature of a thing cannot be apart from the thing itself. The nature of water is wetness, but its wetness is not apart from it, but a defining description of the object. The nature of mind is a description of what the mind is like in general, therefore the mind's universal characteristic (samanya-laksana) is that it's empty, impermanent, etc., while its individual, unique characteristic (sva-laksana) is that it is aware, conscious.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 28th, 2019 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause
Content:
Viach said:
1. 4TN are not an instruction for practice, they are the answer at the end of the exercises book.

Astus wrote:
The four noble truths is one of the first things one learns about Buddhism, and it serves as the summary of the whole of Buddhadharma. It is also the basis of right view, what one has to come to understand, and eventually realise directly.

Viach said:
You can’t practice the answer, you can only be guided by it.

Astus wrote:
Being a guide, it is what one follows through until complete attainment.

Viach said:
without a solution (practice of Buddhist yoga), the answer itself (4TN) has no practical value.

Astus wrote:
Contemplation of the four truths is one of the topics of dharmanupasyana, not to mention all the studies one has to do.

Viach said:
2. As a rule, the measure is a reconciliation of the yogic experience you have already achieved with a description of the reference experience (for example, 4TN, 10 bhumis, etc.).

Astus wrote:
The four noble truths are not the stages of attainment. Also, having attained any of the arya stages is a measure of attainment, not abilities.


