﻿Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 27th, 2019 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause
Content:
Viach said:
1. The Path we have already discussed here: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=31103#p491639

Astus wrote:
That is a denial of the possibility of understanding the teachings and following the instructions, hence a rejection of the Three Jewels.

Viach said:
2. I had in mind the average man with average abilities.

Astus wrote:
What is the measurement of abilities?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 26th, 2019 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause
Content:
Astus wrote:
The 4NT are the basics of correct view for liberation without what there is no correct path. The 4NT were also taught to lay people in his https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anupubbikath%C4%81.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 24th, 2019 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Conceptual vs. Non Conceptual meditation discussion
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
It is not necessary to cease conceptual thought, only to have an experience it's nature ' i.e. to "see the identity of things with wisdom".

Astus wrote:
Seeing with wisdom means seeing with discernment based on the teachings.

Johnny Dangerous said:
whether Vipaysana is more properly conceptual or non conceptual, I assume the real answer is both.

Astus wrote:
Both, in the way that there is a sequence, where one first has to analyse experiences, and that is conceptual, and with the conclusion of analysis there is no need to do anything further but remain in non-conceptual equipoise.

Johnny Dangerous said:
this is not the only response to the question and if we read Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachers of various lineages

Astus wrote:
Dakpo Tashi Namgyal on vipasyana in mahamudra:

'In this context, by relying on the major and minor texts, as well as shorter esoteric instructions, transmitted from the Great Brahman [Saraha], the glorious Śavaripa, and the lord of yogins Tilopa, we focus on just the mind to determine [the nature of] all percepts and perceivers—which is the instruction for taking direct perception as the path. This is the way to give rise to the view of the emptiness of nature. It has many distinctive profundities in that it involves little hardship and brings great benefit. It is, for the most part, identical with the key points of the Sūtra-oriented texts on the stages of meditation, the Instructions on Prajñāpāramitā, Kamalaśīla’s three Stages of Meditation, and the Exalted [Lord Atīśa’s] Instructions on Madhyamaka. It is most wonderful.'
(Moonbeams of Mahamudra, 9.B.3)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 23rd, 2019 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Conceptual vs. Non Conceptual meditation discussion
Content:
Rick said:
It would follow that if the illness is the psyche, the remedy is psyche-logical. Treat like with like ... to transcend attachment to self, use self. Yes?

Astus wrote:
The error of taking things to be existent or non-existent is a conceptual one, and that error can be addressed on the conceptual level, removing the unfounded belief in substantial entities.

'Once a teacher from Kham asked Dromtönpa about the meaning of the two selflessnesses.
Dromtönpa replied, “If you were to probe with your mind and search from the top of your crown aperture to the bottom of the soles of your feet, not a single entity is to be found that is called the ‘self.’ That nonfinding is the selflessness of persons. Recognizing that the searching mind, too, is devoid of intrinsic existence is the selflessness of phenomena.”'
(The Book of Kadam, p 573)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 23rd, 2019 at 5:39 PM
Title: Re: Conceptual vs. Non Conceptual meditation discussion
Content:
Astus wrote:
The basic ignorance is conceptual, hence the remedy is conceptual. As Kamalashila put it (Stages of Meditation, p 134, 135):

'Those who do not meditate with wisdom by analyzing the entity of things specifically, but merely meditate on the elimination of mental activity, cannot avert conceptual thoughts and also cannot realize identitylessness because they lack the light of wisdom. If the fire of consciousness knowing phenomena as they are is produced from individual analysis of suchness, then like the fire produced by rubbing wood it will burn the wood of conceptual thought. The Buddha has spoken in this way. ... It has been explained very clearly that through mere elimination of mental activity, Without examining the identity of things with wisdom, it is not possible to engage in non-conceptual meditation. Thus, concentration is done after the actual identity of things like physical form and so forth has been perfectly analyzed with wisdom, and not by concentrating on physical form and so forth.'


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 23rd, 2019 at 4:09 PM
Title: Re: Saṁskārāḥ & Bijāni
Content:
Astus wrote:
Samskara at the second limb is about intentions based on ignorance. Seeds in the storehouse consciousness are hidden causes of future experiences. One can actually be aware of arising intentions, while seeds are per definition unknown. You could even say that seeds cause samskaras.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 22nd, 2019 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?
Content:
Lokottara said:
Have any of you found that contemplating on the emptiness of sentient beings makes you more compassionate?

Astus wrote:
Emptiness of being means recognising how attachment is a mistake that generates immense suffering, and with the diminishing of self-centredness there is the arising of patience for and recognition of the emotions driving everyone to more and more pain. That's how compassion can emerge from contemplation of emptiness.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 21st, 2019 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause
Content:
Viach said:
Why is 3TN called a “cessation of suffering”, although it is explained as a cessation of, namely, the cause of suffering? And why is 4TN called the "path leading to the cessation of suffering" and not to the cessation of the cause of suffering (which would be more logical)?

Astus wrote:
My guess is simply because of convenience, just as all four are reduced to the words dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, magga.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 21st, 2019 at 8:01 PM
Title: Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause
Content:
Viach said:
Is this the answer to my question?

Astus wrote:
The 2nd noble truth is about the cause of suffering, just as it is stated in the quote from the sutta. The 3rd noble truth is about the cessation of suffering that comes about due to the cessation of the cause of suffering, as stated in the quote from the sutta. If there is something else you're asking, please clarify.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 21st, 2019 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause
Content:
Viach said:
Isn't the point of 2TN to demonstrate the suffering cause ? (Which should be eliminated)

Astus wrote:
And that's what it is:

'Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.'


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 21st, 2019 at 5:43 PM
Title: Re: cessation of suffering or cessation of suffering cause
Content:
Viach said:
Is the Third Truth of the Noble about the cessation of suffering or the cessation of suffering cause?

Astus wrote:
'Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it.'
( https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 17th, 2019 at 4:50 PM
Title: Re: Relationship between Huayan's fourfold dharmadhatu and Dongshen's/Zens Five Ranks.
Content:
Astus wrote:
Ross Bolleter in https://books.google.hu/books?id=_XBNAgAAQBAJ makes several connections between the five ranks and the four dharmadhatu. The topic is also briefly touched upon in https://books.google.hu/books?id=RlH9CAAAQBAJ, and in the introduction to part 2 in https://books.google.hu/books?id=TrYKAAAAYAAJ. In https://books.google.hu/books?id=ikPxIBFOz-sC there is an essay by Jana Benicka titled '(Huayan-like) Notions of Inseparability (or Unity) of Essence and Its Function (or Principle and Phenomena) in Some Commentaries on "Five Positions" of Chan Master Dongshan Liangjie'.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 17th, 2019 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: Why did the Buddha rarely get specific with meditation instructions?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Also, more on how much one can actually find in the suttas:

https://store.pariyatti.org/Buddhas-Path-to-Deliverance-The--PDF-eBook_p_2561.html - Nyanatiloka Thera used mostly suttas to cover the topics of the Visuddhimagga.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150324233218/http://measurelessmind.ca/ - the full path described mainly with suttas

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Buddhist%20Meditation%20An%20anthology%20from%20the%20Pali%20canon_Sarah%20Shaw.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 17th, 2019 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Why did the Buddha rarely get specific with meditation instructions?
Content:
Lokottara said:
The specificity that more modern meditation manuals have.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean like when the https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi says "having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect" there should be a more extensive explanation, like the http://www.rinpoche.com/kml/study_materials/Meditation%20Posture%20.pdf? If so, then one possible reason for that is how the teachings may talk about things that were important to mention/emphasise/preserve, like the stages of absorption, but not the object of absorption. You can find this bias in later and even current teachings as well.

Lokottara said:
For example, even some of the terms are rather undefined. For example, the term "parimukhaṃ".

Astus wrote:
That is more of a linguistic matter that establishing mindfulness in front of oneself may not sound clear.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 16th, 2019 at 5:15 PM
Title: Re: Why did the Buddha rarely get specific with meditation instructions?
Content:
Astus wrote:
What level of specificity do you mean?

As for what can be gathered from the early texts:

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Articles/On%20the%20Practice%20of%20Buddhist%20Meditation%20According%20to%20the%20Pali%20Nikayas%20and%20Exegetical%20Sources_Gethin_Hamburg_2004.pdf by Rubert Gethin
https://www.academia.edu/21124676/Early_Buddhist_Meditation by Johannes Bronkhorst
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/ebms.pdf by Analayo


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 16th, 2019 at 3:22 PM
Title: Re: What is Dharma?
Content:
Aemilius said:
You also need to define all the words and concepts used in all the teachings, see...Like for example what is "view", what is "right view", ...
what is "liberation", what is "right liberation", etc...

Astus wrote:
That's already been done by the Buddha and numerous disciples in the sutras, treatises, and the commentaries.

Aemilius said:
the responsiblity rests also on the hearer or the one who understands.

Astus wrote:
The responsibility to actually study, contemplate, and cultivate, yes.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 16th, 2019 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: What is Dharma?
Content:
Aemilius said:
That is not as simple as it may seem. Words have no absolute existence, meaning of the Dharma is often very elusive. Thus it is impossible to say that "here is Dharma", and "there is no Dharma" with absolute certainty.

Astus wrote:
If that were so, then the Buddha would not have taught the Dharma well, then he would have failed in his role as a teacher. Furthermore, right view is very basic for any endeavour in Buddhism, therefore, if one cannot ascertain the correct teaching, then one cannot go any further either.

"When a person has wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, wrong knowledge, & wrong release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever determinations, whatever vows, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is disagreeable, unpleasing, unappealing, unprofitable, & stressful. Why is that? Because the view is evil."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.104.than.html )

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html )

Aemilius said:
Dharma exists in communication, in experience. As is pointed to by the Gotami sutra.

Astus wrote:
The Gotami Sutta lists specific qualities that define right and wrong. If you want a more general statement, see the https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.078.than.html, however, even then it is quite well defined in Buddhism what skilful (kusala) and unskilful (akusala) are, plus knowing the difference is part of right view (see: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html ).

Aemilius said:
In the Lotus of the True Law, Chapter on Avalokiteshvara, it is said that he (Avalokiteshvara) will appear in numerous different guises and forms to guide those who need guidance, like in the forms of a yaksha, a pratyeka-buddha, in the forms of various hindu deities, etc..

Astus wrote:
Being pointed toward the Dharma does not mean that it is Dharma. Impermanence is ubiquitous and contemplation on it is liberating, but that does not make it Dharma per se.

Aemilius said:
Whether a path or teaching is authentic can be discerned from the fruits it produces.

Astus wrote:
You still need to define authentic fruits. And then, as a simple matter of causality, there are a limited number of causes that can bring about the desired effect.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 15th, 2019 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: The feeling of Me, or you.
Content:
Astus wrote:
That is the common mistake of taking consciousness/awareness to be stable and one's true self. But if properly investigated, it turns out that there is nothing constant about it.

"That which is wrongly believed to be the self, or the person, and the doer and so forth, which has been imputed as the performer of actions and the experiencer of joy and sorrow is nothing but the false belief in self based on the five aggregates.
When examined by means of discriminating knowledge the essence of a personal self is not perceived because it is not established as being identical with the aggregates, nor is it established as being different from them."
(Gateway to Knowledge, vol 4, p 35)

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 15th, 2019 at 5:39 PM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Sentient Light said:
But the remainder of the outflows remain as a subtle mind-made body, which is subject to birth and death in a 'transformative' way, rather than a 'discontinuous' way.

Astus wrote:
The Faxiang school accepts that there is remainderless extinction for hearers of the fixed class (of the five gotras), hence no continuation. See: CWSL, ch 12, BDK ed, p 341-345.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 14th, 2019 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: What is Dharma?
Content:
Astus wrote:
'And the Blessed One spoke, saying: "In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.'
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html )

"Bhikkhus, only here is there a recluse, only here a second recluse, only here a third recluse, only here a fourth recluse. The doctrines of others are devoid of recluses: that is how you should rightly roar your lion's roar."
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.011.ntbb.html )

"the Tathagata isn't concerned with whether all the cosmos or half of it or a third of it will be led to release by means of that [Dhamma]. But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances — those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment — having well-established their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.095.than.html )

'this teaching is well explained and well propounded to us by the Blessed One, emancipating, leading to peace, proclaimed by someone who is a fully awakened Buddha. You should all recite this in concert, without disputing, so that this spiritual path may last for a long time.'
( https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 13th, 2019 at 7:38 PM
Title: Re: Calming the mind
Content:
dolphin_color said:
In your experience, what actually helps calm the mind before a meditation session?

Astus wrote:
There are numerous practices, especially those performed regularly in ceremonies, that are meant to help taming the mind. In particular repentance is a powerful one, so are devotional practices. Depending on your preferred tradition, you can find those that fit your situation. Furthermore, what object you choose to tame the mind can also matter a lot.

“If beings of dull capacity in the final age desire in their hearts to pursue the Way but cannot succeed in realizing it due to karmic obstructions from the past, they should ardently repent and always keep up their hope. They must first cut off likes and dislikes, envy, and deceitfulness and pursue the superior mind. They may practice any one of these three kinds of pure contemplation. If that contemplation does not succeed, they should then practice another contemplation. They should not become disheartened but should [continue to] pursue realization gradually.”
(Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, ch 11, BDK ed, p 106)

"The fifth method is a practice [designed] to cure people equally [troubled with multiple problems]. [This method is also intended for] people who have committed grave transgressions and who seek for [help from] the Buddha.
[The master] should teach such people the single-minded concentration on calling the Buddha to mind. There are three types of people who practice the concentration on calling the Buddha to mind: elementary, intermediate, and advanced."
(The Sutra on the Concentration of Sitting Meditation, BDK ed, p 33)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 12th, 2019 at 4:40 PM
Title: Re: Do Buddhas have any true multiplicity, or are they all emanations of the dharmakāya?
Content:
Lokottara said:
I don't understand what the "point" of separate Samyaksaṃbuddhas is if, via the Śūraṅgama Samādhi, even one Buddha can manifest an infinite amount of emanations (among other things).

Astus wrote:
There are two perspectives. From the perspective of one's own cultivation, one aims to complete the bodhisattva path and attain buddhahood. From the perspective of one's perception of those who accomplished buddhahood, there are various examples. So, there are different buddhas for two reasons: the manifoldness of practitioners, and the plurality of personal traits that require connection to different buddhas. While actually these ideas about buddhas are 100% conceptual fabrications, they're still meaningful and beneficial.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 12th, 2019 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Reality
Content:
Astus wrote:
Those four you listed are fine, if that's what you're after.

Instead of Garfield's MMK I might recommend Siderits' work: https://books.google.hu/books?id=1Y8vdpqzOg8C. Or if it's a matter of translation, try https://books.google.hu/books?id=cmFADAAAQBAJ, and if with commentary you can go with https://books.google.hu/books?id=QpO5ykqRHJEC.

If you want somewhat more accessible works:

On MMK:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=9DXqAwAAQBAJ

Madhyamaka:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=dIMMmwEACAAJ
https://books.google.hu/books?id=GqW7Lm0GT_gC
https://books.google.hu/books?id=oMNymKu-5c8C
https://books.google.hu/books?id=tVGBDwAAQBAJ
https://books.google.hu/books?id=QWg7BQAAQBAJ

Meditation:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=y6HzxLUC7rQC
https://books.google.hu/books?id=qylyQHr3AacC
https://books.google.hu/books?id=MC4tDQAAQBAJ
https://books.google.hu/books?id=vJVDCUcwirgC


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 11th, 2019 at 6:50 PM
Title: Re: Reality
Content:
Astus wrote:
As the Svatantrika-Prasangika distinction is a Tibetan idea, primarily of the Gelugpas, here are some recommended works on that:

Academic:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=tIw1BgAAQBAJ
https://books.google.hu/books?id=rHHlCmCr85EC
https://books.google.hu/books?id=u7ZtE1bhtRYC
https://books.google.hu/books?id=VS4tDQAAQBAJ
https://books.google.hu/books?id=1KXrUeGsT_QC

Nyingmapa:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=SaHSVuMnxNIC

Kagyupa:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=8zeh8VAFCvAC

Sakyapa:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=Xzc6AwAAQBAJ

Gelugpa:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=iRKQ2GbDcA8C
https://books.google.hu/books?id=3KqnpqRajPEC
https://books.google.hu/books?id=bzb-Gih7k1EC


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 11th, 2019 at 6:26 AM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
tatpurusa said:
No, I mean the centre of the universe, with all realms, not just of the Earth. This is what it is supposed to be.

Astus wrote:
The Buddhist universe in the sense of lokadhatu? Because then it is taught to be the Sumeru. But if you mean how it should be in light of the current view of the world, then there is no centre.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 11th, 2019 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
tatpurusa said:
I mean according to you.

Astus wrote:
I am a kilometre from the Danube, the second largest river in Europe and has about the same length as the Ganges, however, it comes from the Black Forest and not the Himalayas. The https://www.welt-atlas.de/datenbank/karten/karte-0-9000.gif usually have some part of West Africa in the middle, however, since often here "the world" can easily mean simply Europe, it is apparently a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe where its midpoint lies, therefore I might as well be biased and say it's either Munich or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1llya#Trivia.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 11th, 2019 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
tatpurusa said:
And that is the center of the universe?

Astus wrote:
According to some, yes. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anavatapta.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2019 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
tatpurusa said:
You are just talking about distant things from our own realm.

Astus wrote:
Exactly. And Mount Meru is within our realm too according to the descriptions. That's where the four great rivers, like the Ganges, come from. One just needs to follow them back to their source.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2019 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
tatpurusa said:
The clue is imagined. In order to imagine something unpercievable to us we need symbols.

Astus wrote:
Beyond the room I'm sitting in the rest of the world I can only imagine. And even where I now sit is processed by the mind. But it doesn't mean the idea of a street outside refers to something imperceptible. Similarly, they did know and could perceive those rivers and mountains, while the rest beyond the known lands was assumed to be similarly real and perceptible, if one can go there. Hence there are stories of people physically visiting various realms.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2019 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
tatpurusa said:
What is the point you are trying to make?

Astus wrote:
That the descriptions of the world written by various authors were intended as they were written, how they imagined the world to be.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2019 at 7:40 PM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
tatpurusa said:
In order to connect to, visualize, imagine or understand other realms and other beings we need symbols.

Astus wrote:
There are four major and eight intermediate continents around Sumeru, all populated by humans, so easily perceptible to us. The southern one, where all of us is supposed to be, is described just as India is known with its rivers and mountains. What is symbolic about that? Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1710_First_Japanese_Buddhist_Map_of_the_World_Showing_Europe,_America,_and_Africa_-_Geographicus_-_NansenBushu-hotan-1710.jpg from 1710 does not look like an allegory to me, even though it contains locations like Lake Anavatapta whence the four great rivers flow.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2019 at 5:50 PM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
tatpurusa said:
I never said these realms do not exist; of course they do.
But those descriptions are schematic (not necessarily "real") representations full of symbolism meant as instructions for visualization, just like mandalas.

Astus wrote:
There is nothing symbolic in describing the so called receptacle world (bhajanaloka), since it is meant to be an object of perception common to all beings in that place, and it is generally made of insentient matter. Or would you say the descriptions found in various texts from Asanga's Abhidharmasamuccaya (p 82) to Mipham's Gateway to Knowledge (vol 2, ch 8) are somehow meditation instructions?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2019 at 5:11 PM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
tatpurusa said:
These are descriptions of the way how to visualize it for certain meditative practices.

Astus wrote:
That does not negate the cosmological view. Just because there is meditation on the six realms, it does not mean those realms do not actually exist. Quite the opposite, one meditates on them because they are real.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 10th, 2019 at 4:25 PM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
Astus wrote:
What has not yet been discussed is: who says what Mount Meru is? The Pali Canon mentions it https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=408190&sid=9352bffc0e0877c1e1ed3a50c8d7edc5#p408190 (mainly: SN https://suttacentral.net/sn13.11/en/sujato; https://suttacentral.net/sn22.99/en/sujato; https://suttacentral.net/sn56.49/en/sujato; https://suttacentral.net/sn56.50/en/sujato; AN https://suttacentral.net/an3.80/en/sujato; https://suttacentral.net/an7.66/en/sujato; https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/sujato ). Most of the cosmological explanations are found in commentaries, and not even the Abhidhamma elaborates on it. However, the commentators, including here Vasubandhu's AKB, do not take these matters as metaphors but rather as the accurate description of the world (see: https://what-buddha-said.net/library/pdfs/Buddhist_Cosmology_Punnadhammo.pdf by Punnadhammo, section 4:7 on p 697-700).


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 9th, 2019 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: Does zen have anything similar to dream yoga?
Content:
Grigoris said:
That is a truly horrible translation.  It actually makes no sense.

Astus wrote:
How about https://suttacentral.net/sn4.7/en/bodhi?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 9th, 2019 at 5:43 PM
Title: Re: Does zen have anything similar to dream yoga?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Seongcheol, a former head of the Jogye Order, had the view that hwadu practice should continue during sleep. See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seongcheol#In_deep_sleep,_one_mind. You can also read about it in his talk http://www.buddhism.org/?p=157.
The same idea is found in Jogye's handbook for Ganhwaseon in the chapter: http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020&wr_id=12
However, it is not a practice like dream yoga, but rather a sign of progress. The point is still to focus totally on the hwadu, as http://www.buddhism.org/?p=1194:
'When practicing hwadu, do not waste even one second. Continuously, as a hen sits on her eggs, as water flows, without rest, focus on your hwadu without any interruption. Then, your effort will be fruitful, your mind and body will become light and contented. Take your hwadu even into your dreams, and you will attain wisdom, a mind clear and full of intelligence.'

On the topic of sleep, also check the https://suttacentral.net/sn4.7/en/sujato.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 9th, 2019 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen priests considered Bhikkhu / Bhikṣu?
Content:
ryan_oliveira said:
Are non-celibate Zen priests considered Bhikkhu / Bhikṣu?

Astus wrote:
Within the Japanese context, yes. Beyond that, no.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 9th, 2019 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
the passage I quoted quite clearly says it's a matter of semantics.

Astus wrote:
Not just semantics but function. Alayavijnana is a function of the mind, and when that function has ceased, that is the cessation of the storehouse consciousness. That is why arhats, pratyekabuddhas, non-regressing bodhisattvas, and buddhas are said to be without alayavijnana.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 8th, 2019 at 4:54 PM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
Further on from where you quote:

Astus wrote:
That is an argument for the inclusion of avaivartikas, who are not yet asaiksa on the bodhisattva path. Furthermore, the avaivartika bodhisattva is included because he has abandoned klesavarana just like asaiksa sravakas. But before that it is stated explicitly that all three types of asaiksa aryas have fully abandoned the alayavijnana. However, alayavijnana is a function of the mind, so its abandonment does not mean total cessation even for arhats until nirupadhisesanirvana.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 8th, 2019 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
I don't think this is so.

Astus wrote:
'From beginningless time, this consciousness has evolved like a stream. At what point is it utterly abandoned? IT IS ABANDONED IN THE STATE OF ARHATSHIP. Arhats are saints at the time when they terminate the obstacle of the passions (klesa-avarana) utterly. They are said to ABANDON [alaya consciousness] because at that time, the coarse and heavy class of passions is forever removed. The ARHAT refers to those of all three vehicles who have progressed beyond the stage of learning (saiksa)'
(CWSL, BDK ed, p 78)

Queequeg said:
See BDK translation pp. 70-73.

Astus wrote:
In what I have there is a discussion of caitasikas on those pages.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 7th, 2019 at 3:36 PM
Title: Re: What is Mount Meru?
Content:
Astus wrote:
A monk asked Yunmen, "When not producing a single thought, is there any fault or not?"
Yumen said, "Mount Sumeru."
(Book of Serenity, case 19)

So, what is Mount Meru?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 7th, 2019 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Trekcho Dzogchen = Soto Zen?
Content:
Viach said:
The method is the same - non-meditation.

Astus wrote:
How does one non-meditate in Dzogchen? How is it done in Soto?

Dogen writes in Fukanzazengi:

'Consider the Buddha: although he was wise at birth, the traces of his six years of upright sitting can yet be seen. As for Bodhidharma, although he had received the mind-seal, his nine years of facing a wall is celebrated still. If even the ancient sages were like this, how can we today dispense with wholehearted practice?'

Is that non-meditation? Or is it 'to take the backward step that turns the light and shines it inward'? Or is thinking of not thinking it?

How about what Dogen writes in Gakudo-Yojinshu ( https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/leaflet/heartofzen/pdf/Heart_of_Zen.pdf )?

'Although people vary in their abilities, some base their practice on faith and others base their practice on dharma.  Some realize instantaneously and others practice gradually. All of them enter realization through practice.'

Viach said:
Doctrines: nature of mind (Semde) = Buddha consciousness (Soto).

Astus wrote:
Dogen writes in Bussho (SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2):

'to look at mountains and rivers is to look at the buddha-nature. And to look at the buddha-nature is to look at a donkey’s jaw or a horse’s nose.' (p 8)

'In sum, “that without constancy” of grass, trees, and forests is just the buddha-nature. And “that without constancy” of the body-and-mind of a human being is the buddha-nature itself. National lands and mountains and rivers are “that without constancy” because they are the buddha-nature. The truth of anuttara samyaksaṃbodhi, because it is the buddha-nature, is “that without constancy.”' (p 14)

'Those without mind may also be “living beings,” for “living beings” are just mind.98 So minds all are “living beings,” and “living beings” all “have the buddha-nature.” Grass, trees, and national lands are mind itself; because they are mind, they are “living beings,” and because they are “living beings” they “have the buddha-nature.” The sun, the moon, and the stars are mind itself; because they are mind, they are “living beings,” and because they are “living beings” they “have the buddha-nature.”' (p 21)

How do they compare to Dzogchen?

Viach said:
It is hard not to notice the similarity when reading teachers Soto and Semde.

Astus wrote:
Do you have anything more specific?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 6th, 2019 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Trekcho Dzogchen = Soto Zen?
Content:
Viach said:
In this case, I compare doctrines and methods: in my opinion they are almost the same.

Astus wrote:
OK, but then it's still too much. Should pick a specific doctrine or a specific method from both sides and see how they compare. Or at least bring up a short text. For instance, the https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/practice/sutra/pdf/03/c02.pdf is meant to be a brief summary of Soto Zen teachings, while the https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/practice/sutra/pdf/03/c01.pdf is a summary for meditation. Do you have something to compare those with in Dzogchen?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 6th, 2019 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Trekcho Dzogchen = Soto Zen?
Content:
Viach said:
It would be more correct: Semde Dzogchen = Soto Zen.

Astus wrote:
Semde is a category of teachings, not a complete tradition. A valid comparison would be more like Nyingma and Soto. As traditions, they include lots of teachings, practices, methods, doctrines, rituals, and they are quite diverse within themselves where one can find various differences in terms of history, monastery, and individual teachers. So, what do you actually want to compare?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 6th, 2019 at 1:57 PM
Title: Re: Trekcho Dzogchen = Soto Zen?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Soto is a whole tradition, trekcho is a method. To compare things we should start with defining what are to be compared.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 3rd, 2019 at 4:16 PM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
Vimalakirti does not suggest that beings produce a material world apart from the pure land which XZ seems to be suggesting.

Astus wrote:
The Vimalakirti Sutra talks of how the purity and defilement of the world depends on the purity and defilement of the mind. There is no world apart from the mind.

Queequeg said:
In XZ's telling, beings each project a form world that is not participated in by Buddhas or even formless beings.  It's not just that the samsara colored glasses prevent beings from seeing the world.

Astus wrote:
Just like the Vimalakirti Sutra, Xuanzang states that the seemingly external world is a mental product. Neither say that there is a world independent of beings.

Queequeg said:
XZ is saying that beings construct a material cell for themselves... That isn't even really shared... But overlap somehow. That can exist even without them in it. That's the part that blows it up and makes what you're saying inapplicable.

Astus wrote:
A world exist as a mental product. The part on the issue of a world without inhabitants is about the process of the collapse and emergence of the various realms, but even there it's all produced by karma.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 3rd, 2019 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
The Sutras are most definitely saying that Sahalokha is a pure realm except that it is not experienced as such by ordinary beings because of their own karma.

Astus wrote:
The sutras do not say that there is a world behind the world. The point is that the world is the product of the mind, hence the oft quoted passage from the Vimalakirti Sutra that the pure land is the pure mind. Purity means not afflicted, without attachment, free from the obscurations. Are ordinary beings pure? No, they are not, and that's what makes them ordinary. Can we say that ultimately all beings are pure? Yes, in the sense that defilements are not inherent, furthermore, that beings are actually empty and not beings at all. But it does not change that beings experience an afflicted world because of their afflicted mind. So, talking of ultimate purity is a fine encouragement, but does not address what actually happens.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 3rd, 2019 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
Except that Xuangzang is making an explicit claim about the relationship between the form world and the minds of beings.

Astus wrote:
The world is a product of karma according to Xuanzang and practically everyone else. I don't see the problem. Could you please elaborate?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 3rd, 2019 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
The issue I’m seeing is Xuangzang’s apparent suggestion that the pure Buddha lands are distinct from the world of form realm beings, while in the Lotus and Vimalakirti Sutras, the Buddha explains that this Sahalokha is pure, but this purity is not perceived because of the karmic limitations of sentient beings.

Astus wrote:
Experiences of an external world are defined by one's karma. Saying that the world is ultimately pure, that ordinary beings are fundamentally buddhas, that samsara is nirvana, etc. makes no difference for what is actually experienced.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 1st, 2019 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
Can you explain what is meant by direct perception?

Astus wrote:
That it is experienced by one of the six senses. So, seeing smoke is direct perception, while knowing that there must be fire is inference. Here, if analysed a bit further, the seeing of colour and form is direct, while understanding it to be form is processing sensory input, but that does not change the source of knowledge of smoke is direct perception, while the knowledge of fire is inferred.

Queequeg said:
Yogacara doesn't actually deny an external world, does it?

Astus wrote:
It depends on what you mean by that. An objectively existing world independent of one's mind is very much denied. But even in other schools it is accepted that the whole universe arises from karma, so there is never a world that exists on its own by any Buddhist view.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 1st, 2019 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
This is a very different model, but doesn't affect my argument about all consciousnesses only being inferred.

Astus wrote:
Direct perception through all six gates is accepted by 'Northern' abhidharma schools, and so it is by Dignaga. What you find regarding perception in Theravada is their own unique interpretation. Yogacara actually had to argue that there is nothing perceived out there, to the extent that Ratnakirti disproved the direct perception of other minds. However, Theravada still assumes an external world that impacts the mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 31st, 2019 at 3:39 PM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
The Mind (sixth consciousness) is not just about self-reflection, though. It takes as its object the the other five sense consciousnesses, as well as mind consciousness.

Astus wrote:
No disagreement, that's what I meant by self-reflection, that the 6th has consciousness (all 6 kinds) as objects.

Queequeg said:
And if Mind consciousness subsides before becoming something one is aware of, it subsides without further effect

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is what is aware, so if there is no awareness, there is no consciousness to speak of. The division of mind moments to javanas is a special Theravadin abhidhammic analysis.

Queequeg said:
There is always abstraction. Its built into the subject-object dynamic that if found in all states of consciousness. Objects are always abstractions.

Astus wrote:
Both objects and subjects are nominal entities in Yogacara, neither apparent things nor minds are real. But the important element is that it's all tainted by the assumption of independent, non-fabricated entities.

Queequeg said:
is any of those moments of consciousness what we think it is? Isn't that one of the main points of yogacara? Everything you think is true is delusion of one sort or another so long as one is not awakened... how can an unenlightened person perceive a visual consciousness that is not some delusion?

Astus wrote:
The central message of Yogacara is to recognise that the objects of attachment are mental fabrications. That's why the explanation of the 8 consciousnesses is relevant, in that it tells how delusion works. The question is not whether common people can make valid observations about the world, that is an epistemological concern without interest in liberation. The question is how one is stuck in samsara and how to become free.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 31st, 2019 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
And I'm basically arguing that the 6 consciousnesses can't directly be perceived either... just their effects.

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is what can experience things, and it's split to six kinds based on the different categories of objects. So where it's about self-reflection, that's the sixth consciousness, while awareness of rupa is by the other five. To say that one is not aware of those six types of objects makes the whole setup meaningless. Also, to say that the six consciousnesses are not experienced, one needs to posit another consciousness apart from them.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 31st, 2019 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Matt J said:
As for the alaya, you can experience that also.

Queequeg said:
Maybe in some non-yogacara teachings, but I don't think this is an option in pure yogacara.

Astus wrote:
That sort of experience is called the alayavijnana by some Tibetan teachers, usually to differentiate it from alaya, a term used in Dzogchen for the nature of mind.
From the Yogacara POV alayavijnana exists for those bound by karma, while for buddhas the 8 consciousnesses become the 4 wisdoms (jnana). The manas takes alayavijnana as its object, while the alayavijnana takes the bijas, and they serve as the basis of the 6 vijnanas that we can be actually aware of, hence nobody can actually perceive the 8th and 7th consciousnesses, because all perceived objects are their products.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 30th, 2019 at 3:04 PM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
Alaya is several orders of magnitude removed from basic observations. I'm pretty sure I can explain emptiness to someone and get them to buy in more readily than to alaya consciousness.

Astus wrote:
Aren't memories, and knowledge in general, believed to be stored in one's mind? There, it is readily explained and understood in conventional terms, and no need to say 'subconscious'. Also, it is a common view in Buddhism that there are latent tendencies (anusaya), but it's not that easy to place them anywhere when mind is singular and momentary.

Queequeg said:
the abhidhamma analysis, eye consciousness, for instance, doesn't actually register as anything in itself.

Astus wrote:
That is the Theravadin version of perception. There are others. But I intended only a very basic sense that one directly knows of the appearance of the six types of consciousness.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 30th, 2019 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
Who proposes the dharmas existing in three times? Not the Yogacarins... please clarify - that last part is ambiguous.

Astus wrote:
The Sarvastivadins. That is where they got there name from: sarva (everything) asti (exists).

Queequeg said:
assert things that as an outsider looking in sounds rather arbitrary and dogmatic... like the reality of icchantikas and the different paths of sravaka and bodhisattvas.

Astus wrote:
You could say that about any Buddhist teaching, that they look arbitrary and dogmatic. Yogacara "developed" on the abhidharma teachings and formed a Mahayana version.

Queequeg said:
Its fascinating stuff and seems important to know because it informs so much Buddhist practice in Mahayana and Vajrayana... but seems to me a conceptual dead end...

Astus wrote:
Lots of generally accepted Mahayana doctrines were first explained by Yogacarins, including the bodhisattva stages and the three buddha bodies. Today the most known representatives of their teachings are called Shentongpas, the pre-eminent doctrine among Kagyupas, Nyingmapas, and Jonangpas, but it is also popular among current Chan teachers as well.

Queequeg said:
Well, isn't that the nature of all notions of consciousness?

Astus wrote:
The six consciousnesses are readily perceivable, aren't they?

Queequeg said:
The device for explaining continuity... In some ways, makes one wonder if needing to establish a particular conclusion... continuity, particularly between births... is a hobgoblin... That's a fraught line of questioning.

Astus wrote:
It is not just about explaining continuity in general, but more about special cases, where conscious activity ceases (i.e. nirodhasamapatti & the asamjnisattva).

Queequeg said:
samsara is nirvana... That kind of blows all that up.

Astus wrote:
Not really. There are ordinary beings, and there are buddhas. Why the difference? Because of the afflictions. And latent afflictions reside in the storehouse consciousness.

Queequeg said:
Tathagatagarbha teachings address some of the issues better, IMHO.

Astus wrote:
What part?

Queequeg said:
I'm probably basically Madhyamikan in view...

Astus wrote:
Yogacara emerged after Madhyamaka, and there isn't really a contradiction between them, although that depends on how one reads one or the other.

Queequeg said:
So much of this seems labored, to address problems that aren't really problems... But that might be my Madhyamikan bias... I'm trying to be open and really understand this stuff.

Astus wrote:
Yogacara actually simplified the Abhidharma teachings, and they even made Madhyamaka simpler. Why it can seem overly complicated is perhaps because of not comparing it with the entirety of preceding schools.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 30th, 2019 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Cheng weishi lun, Demonstration of Consciousness
Content:
Queequeg said:
IIRC, when Yogacarins refer to Sravakayana or Hinayana, they are referring to Sarvastivadins - one of the "Hinayana" schools that I don't think exist anymore and are mostly known because they were whipping boys for Yogacarins.

Astus wrote:
The doctrine of the storehouse-consciousness is a theory based on the Sautrantika interpretation of karma that is deposited as seeds, hence the idea of seeds stored in a unique aspect of consciousness. The Sarvastivadin explanation of karma is somewhat different, as they (or rather some of them) have the concept of non-informative forms (avijnapti rupa), what is rejected by Yogacarins by saying that everything is "informative" (vijnapti), but more importantly it is the idea of dharmas existing in the three times that ensures the emergence of later fruits of past deeds.

Queequeg said:
On one hand, its explained as a thing, where "seeds" are deposited and "perfumed." But that doesn't make sense because that would suggest it is something substantial.

Astus wrote:
Note that the whole teaching of the eight consciousnesses are within the scope of conventional reality that has only a conceptual basis. Furthermore, it's mainly a theoretical explanation of karmic consequences over various births.

Queequeg said:
devices by which mind continuity are explained.

Astus wrote:
Indeed.

Queequeg said:
this would seem to be directed at cultivating quietude necessary to reveal the underlying currents below the gross level of consciousness...

Astus wrote:
The storehouse-consciousness cannot be seen or sensed in any way, at least within the Yogacara teachings.

Queequeg said:
In the Chegn weishi lun, Xuangzang suggests that sravaka eliminate the alaya consciousness.

Astus wrote:
So do bodhisattvas eventually. After all, it is the basis of samsara.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 29th, 2019 at 3:18 AM
Title: Re: Eclectic Buddhism
Content:
javier.espinoza.t said:
and there is at least one buddhist path where greed, anger, and delusion are not considered enemies and are not even transformed into something else.
My point here is that if one mixed the point of view of different buddhist paths one couldn't apply correctly. so eclectic things, new age thing, "i like my idea" things, are in general a waste of time.

Astus wrote:
Self-arising and self-liberation happens when there is no attachment/fixation/identification. All the other Buddhist traditions say the same, and you can trace it back to the second and third noble truths.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 28th, 2019 at 3:31 PM
Title: Re: Eclectic Buddhism
Content:
Matt J said:
The problem is that many of these practices work against each other. The practices and traditions have their own logic and style, and this logic or style may not gel with other systems.

Astus wrote:
Most of the traditions/schools are intended to encompass the whole of the Buddhadharma, and one works with methods that fit one's inclinations and situations. No matter where one goes, the enemies to be defeated are the same: greed, anger, and delusion.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 24th, 2019 at 5:34 PM
Title: Re: Dream initiations, etc.
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
Does anyone think it is a valid form of transmission, etc. in the modern world?

Astus wrote:
The source is less important than the content. As Mipham wrote:

"No matter what kind of person a teacher is, he cannot purify or liberate you. If the teaching he gives is truly meaningful, it is proper to adhere to it. But if it is not meaningful, it is improper to adhere to it. Thus, one should not rely on the person but on the teaching."
(Gateway to Knowledge, vol 4, p 123)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 21st, 2019 at 6:11 PM
Title: Re: The Atthakavagga...
Content:
Astus wrote:
The https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.024.than.html is the source of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visuddhimagga#Seven_Stages_of_Purification used in Theravada, however, the discourse itself points to the conclusion that all "is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. And it's for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One."


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 18th, 2019 at 4:12 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and oppresion/social action
Content:
Jon N said:
If reaching enlightenment the Bodhisattva discovers that all beings are enlightened, isn't suffering then enlightened too?

Astus wrote:
Although originally there has never been a self, beings have to realise that in order to be free from attachment. Similarly, although the mind is originally pure, one has to realise it in order to be free from defilements. Afflictions themselves are empty, but unless emptiness is realised, there is suffering.

"And when these immeasurable, countless, infinite number of sentient beings have been liberated, in actuality, no sentient being has attained liberation. Why is this so? Subhūti, If a bodhisattva abides in the signs of self, person, sentient being, or life-span, she or he is not a bodhisattva."
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 3)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 17th, 2019 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and oppresion/social action
Content:
Jon N said:
If everything is already enlightened, why there should be practice?

Astus wrote:
Because of adventitious defilements.

Jon N said:
For this reason, if I remember well, some traditions of Tibetan Buddhism regard the tathagatagarbha as the mind in its unenlightened state, so that practice is needed to reach a pure mind (I cannot find the quote in the text so i'm not being very technical here).

Astus wrote:
"But if the mind gives rise to irrelevant thoughts and further predicates the world of objects, it will continue to lack these qualities. All these numberless excellent qualities of the pure principle are none other than those of One Mind, and there is nothing to be sought after anew by thought. Thus, that which is fully endowed with them is called the Dharmakaya when manifested and the Tathagata-garbha when latent."
( http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html )

Jon N said:
how is it possible to combine the tatagatagarbha theory with social action? or at least how is it possible to argue that everything is enlightened without reinforcing the inequalities of the status quo?

Astus wrote:
It actually fits quite well with social action.

"There are five mistakes: faint-heartedness,
contempt for those of lesser ability,
to believe in the false,
to speak about the true nature badly
and to cherish oneself above all else.
So that those in whom these above were there
might rid themselves of them, therefore was it declared."
(Uttaratantra Shastra, v 157, in The Changeless Nature, p 70)

See also chapter 20 of the Lotus Sutra.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 8th, 2019 at 5:11 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism, and theistic religions.
Content:
Astus wrote:
Some relevant materials available online:
http://chancenter.org/download/free-books/ChanPracticeandFaith.pdf by Chan Master Sheng Yen
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ancientsgrfx.pdf by Kuan Ming

In book:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VPJUPwAACAAJ by John Blofeld
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7Dy1THXuOdkC by Sandy Boucher


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 7th, 2019 at 3:49 PM
Title: Re: Is it bad if I, as a youngster Buddhist, go to parties and drink alcool or smoke weed?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Intoxication itself is morally neutral. What can easily become unwholesome are actions performed while intoxicated.

'The fifth precept is abstaining from alcohol and other intoxicants. Again, alcohol itself is not to blame; but some people who drink alcohol become influenced by it in a way that is destructive both to themselves and others. We know how much of a problem our societies have with drunk drivers, and cases such as people killing their loved ones while in an alcoholic stupor. Alcohol can impair our judgment and cause us to lose consciousness, so that we cannot remember what we did while we were drunk. In the Vinaya—the text explaining the rules of life for monks and nuns—when the Buddha talked about abstaining from alcohol and other forms of intoxicants, he told a kind of parable. A monk was out begging for food one day when he came across a woman selling alcohol. She offered him three choices. The first one was to drink alcohol, the second to kill a goat, and the third to have sex with her. He said, “No, I can’t kill the goat; a Buddhist monk would never do such a thing. I can’t have sex—I’m a monk; I’m celibate. So I’ll take the alcohol.” He drank the beer, and once he got drunk, he killed the goat and had sex with the woman. The Buddha said that’s why alcohol is something we should abstain from, precisely because it can have strange effects on some people.'
(The Essence of Buddhism, ch 2, by Traleg Kyabgon)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 5th, 2019 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: About the Lieu Quan School of Thien
Content:
jek37 said:
Can someone explain what this means in simpler terms ?

Astus wrote:
https://tnhaudio.org/2009/12/22/the-lineage-of-thich-nhat-hanh/

The great way of Reality,
Is our true nature’s pure ocean.
The source of Mind penetrates everywhere.

The nature of mind is the nature of everything.

From the roots of virtue springs the practice of compassion.

The nature of mind manifests in compassionate action.

Precepts, concentration and insight –
The nature and function of all three are one.

In the nature of mind all three practices are realised.

The fruit of transcendent wisdom,
Can be realized by being wonderfully together.

The nature of mind is realised through learning.

Maintain and transmit the wonderful principle,
In order to reveal the true teaching!

Once realised, it has to be taught to others.

For the realization of True Emptiness to be possible,
Wisdom and Action must go together.

Learning and teaching keep the lineage alive.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 3rd, 2019 at 4:12 PM
Title: Re: The desire to stop suffering
Content:
Arjan Dirkse said:
Desire is the root of all suffering, but is it bad to have a desire to stop samsara?

Astus wrote:
Brahman Unnabha put the same issue to Ananda in the https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.015.than.html: "it's impossible that one could abandon desire (chanda) by means of desire (chanda)". But then, of course, Ananda explains why that is not so.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 28th, 2019 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Death and enlightenment/emptiness
Content:
Queequeg said:
Some accept three distinct fruits, with Buddhahood possible in this life. Some consider the fruits of the srvakayana and pratyekabuddhayana as upaya, and to the extent the bodhisattva thinks there are these distinctions, their path is upaya, also.

Astus wrote:
As far as I know, currently only Theravada and the followers of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_Yog%C4%81c%C4%81ra school maintain that there are three vehicles, the others uphold the one vehicle view where eventually everyone attains buddhahood.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 28th, 2019 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Death and enlightenment/emptiness
Content:
Queequeg said:
Basically, its why in some Mahayana the sravaka and pratyekabuddha paths are considered incomplete.

Astus wrote:
There are two versions. The first one is where the main difference lies in the accumulation of merit from what the buddha qualities and the buddha land is generated. The second one explains the difference with the inability of the two vehicles to get rid of the attachment to concepts, as all the buddha qualities are inherent in buddha-nature. The first version necessitates the path to take incalculably long in order to gather merit, the second version allows the possibility of buddhahood in one lifetime. The schools where complete enlightenment can happen in this life (e.g. Tiantai, Chan, Mantra) accepts the second version.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 28th, 2019 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Death and enlightenment/emptiness
Content:
Queequeg said:
Some insist Bodhi is beyond just release of attachments.

Astus wrote:
When the emotional and conceptual hindrances are released, the buddha-nature can manifest. What more one would need?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 25th, 2019 at 2:36 AM
Title: Re: Question about awareness as enabler; Moved from Open Dharma
Content:
Rick said:
Do you happen to remember where in the <long!> book these moments are described?

Astus wrote:
Go to IV.§6 (p 153-159). There is also a nice summary on the https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/conditions/d/doc2918.html by Nina van Gorkom.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 25th, 2019 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Question about awareness as enabler
Content:
LastLegend said:
Hmmm. Simple as that?

Astus wrote:
Maitreya/Asanga says in the Madhyantavibhaga (1.3):

'Appearing as objects, sentient beings, the self
And awareness, consciousness arises.
Its objects do not exist.
Therefore, it does not exist either.'

Mipham comments:

'Appearing as objects, such as form, as sentient beings, i.e., the five faculties in one’s own and others’ stream of being, as the self, the defiled mental cognition associated with the delusion of self and so on, and as awareness, the six consciousnesses, consciousness arises. Its objects, the appearances of objects and sentient beings, do not exist. Therefore, since the appearances of self and awareness are mistaken appearances, it, the apprehender, does not exist either.'
(stanza and commentary from Middle Beyond Extremes, p 28)

Rongtönpa comments:

'Because outer apprehended objects do not exist, the consciousness that apprehends them does not exist either. This is because the apprehender depends on the apprehended.'
(Adorning Maitreya's Intent: Arriving at the View of Nonduality, p 34)

Vasubandhu writes in stanza 28 of the Trimsatika:

'If, in perceiving the sphere of objects,
Wisdom (jnana) no longer conceives any idea of the object,
Then that wisdom is in the state of Vijnaptimatrata,
Because both the object to be apprehended and the act of apprehending by consciousness are absent.'

And commentary from Xuanzang:

'[In this stage of unimpeded penetrating understanding], the Bodhisattva attains, with reference to an object, the non-discriminating transcendental wisdom called Nirvikalpakajnana, which does not cling to the objective world, and accepts no kind of sophistry about its seeming appearance (prapancanimitta) . He is now said really to abide in the genuine and transcendent nature of Vijnaptimatrata, that is to say, he experiences the Bhutatathata (Absolute Reality). His wisdom and the Bhutatathata are on the same plane, both being .equally divorced from the aspects of subject and object (grahaka and grahya). Both aspects constitute discrimination, being the sophistic manifestations of that mind which clings to something as its object.'
(stanza and commentary from Wei Tat's translation of the Cheng Weishi Lun, p 687)

A summary by Brunnhölzl from his introduction to the Dharmadharmatavibhanga:

'The fourfold correct yogic practice to attain nonconceptual wisdom consists of the four prayogas of observing all phenomena as being nothing other than mere mind, thus not observing any phenomena as external objects, consequently not observing any observer of external objects either, and finally observing the suchness that is the unobservability of the duality of apprehender and apprehended. These four make up the levels of heat, peak, poised readiness, and the supreme dharma of the path of preparation. This is the progressive way in which nonconceptual wisdom is generated in the mind stream because it is easy to realize that external referents lack a nature of their own, while it is more difficult to realize that the apprehender is unobservable too.'
(Mining for Wisdom within Delusion, p 134)

And here's Mipham's explanation regarding the misconception of a real consciousness in Yogacara from his commentary to chapter 7 of the Mahayanasutralamkara:

'Now, the Cittamātra approach speaks of all phenomena being nothing other than simply the appearances of the mind, and it asserts that only the clear and aware consciousness of the dependent reality, the basis of perception, exists substantially. If the Cittamātrins’ final standpoint is the assertion that this consciousness is only a substantially existent entity inasmuch as it is the cause for all conventional phenomena appearing, and that apart from this assertion they are not claiming that it exists substantially as a truly existing entity in ultimate truth, then they are not at all in contradiction with the Mādhyamika tradition. On the other hand, if they were to assert that it is truly existent in ultimate truth, they would be contradicting the Mādhyamika approach. It seems, therefore, that it is just this particular point that needs to be examined as a source of contention (or otherwise) for the Mādhyamikas.
In the cycle of teachings of Maitreya and the writings of the great charioteer Asaṅga, whose thinking is one and the same, it is taught that individuals on the level of earnest aspiration first understand that all phenomena are simply the mind. Subsequently they have the experience that there is no object to be apprehended in the mind. Then, at the stage of the supreme mundane level on the path of joining, they realize that because there is no object, neither is there a subject, and immediately after that, they attain the first level with the direct realization of the truth of ultimate reality devoid of the duality of subject and object. As for things being only the mind, the source of the dualistic perception of things appearing as environment, sense objects, and a body is the consciousness of the ground of all, which is accepted as existing substantially on the conventional level but is taught as being like a magical illusion and so on since it appears in a variety of ways while not existing dualistically. For this reason, because this tradition realizes, perfectly correctly, that the nondual consciousness is devoid of any truly existing entities and of characteristics, the ultimate intentions of the charioteers of Madhyamaka and Cittamātra should be considered as being in agreement.
Why, then, do the Mādhyamika masters refute the Cittamātra tenet system? Because self-styled proponents of the Cittamātra tenets, when speaking of mind-only, say that there are no external objects but that the mind exists substantially—like a rope that is devoid of snakeness, but not devoid of ropeness. Having failed to understand that such statements are asserted from the conventional point of view, they believe the nondual consciousness to be truly existent on the ultimate level. It is this tenet that the Mādhyamikas repudiate. But, they say, we do not refute the thinking of Ārya Asaṅga, who correctly realized the mind-only path taught by the Buddha.'
(A Feast of the Nectar of the Supreme Vehicle: An Explanation of the Ornament of the Mahayana Sutras, p 235-236)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 24th, 2019 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Question about awareness as enabler
Content:
Queequeg said:
Yogacara... In contrast to Madhyamika...

Astus wrote:
As far as the teachings of Asanga and Vasubandhu are concerned, object and subject are mutually dependent, and realising objects to be fabrications also removes the subject perceiving that.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 24th, 2019 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Question about awareness as enabler
Content:
Queequeg said:
consciousness is posited as the more basic phenomenon.

Astus wrote:
What strain of Buddhism would that be?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 24th, 2019 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Death and enlightenment/emptiness
Content:
Jon N said:
This makes me think, however: can one be a Buddhist without having a belief in rebirth?

Astus wrote:
Of course one can, it's just that denying the existence of afterlife constitutes wrong view.

Jon N said:
If we take rebirth off the equation, does still the Mahayana doctrine make sense?

Astus wrote:
It does not, since without rebirth there is not only no reason for liberation, there is also no possibility of the full bodhisattva path that takes innumerable lifetimes to complete.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 23rd, 2019 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Death and enlightenment/emptiness
Content:
Jon N said:
what is the difference between death and sunyata?

Astus wrote:
Death is the cessation of a life. Emptiness (sunyata) is the absence of an independent, permanent essence.

Jon N said:
or between being enlightened and being dead?

Astus wrote:
Enlightenment is the complete abandonment of attachment. There is no such state as being dead, as Buddhism teaches rebirth.

Jon N said:
As far as I understand, being enlightened one is "flowing" with sunyata, or within sunyata, transcending both life and death.

Astus wrote:
Realising that things are empty results in the elimination of attachment, hence transcending the misconceptinos of permanence (one is forever the same person) and annihilation (one's person ceases to exist at a point).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 23rd, 2019 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Question about awareness as enabler
Content:
Queequeg said:
That is one of the interesting formulations of the 12 Nidana.

Astus wrote:
The same connection is stated in the https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html: 'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' ... 'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Also in the https://suttacentral.net/dn14/en/sujato: 'Name and form are conditions for consciousness. Consciousness is a condition for name and form.'


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 22nd, 2019 at 4:53 PM
Title: Re: Question about awareness as enabler
Content:
Rick said:
So what would you call that 'state' of potential awareness? Background awareness, monitoring awareness, as-needed awareness? Or just: awareness.

Astus wrote:
They're the sense faculties (indriya) or sense bases (āyatana). See this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatana, and this https://abhidharmakosa.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/chapter-1-dhatu.pdf.

Rick said:
1. Awareness is required to perceive/experience any phenomenon. No awareness, no perception/experience.

Astus wrote:
Consciousness (vijñāna) is necessary for there to be perception (saṃjñā).

Rick said:
2. If there is no phenomenon being perceived/experienced, there is no awareness. In other words, awareness rises and falls on as 'as-needed' basis with perceived/experienced phenomena.

Astus wrote:
Consciousness depends on name and form (nāmarūpa), i.e. physical and mental appearances, and name and form depend on consciousness (e.g. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.067.than.html ).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 19th, 2019 at 8:20 PM
Title: Re: Question about awareness as enabler
Content:
Astus wrote:
There is no single "awareness". When there is contact between a sense object and a sense faculty, sense consciousness arises, and through the contact between the three feeling arises, perception arises, formations arise. More detailed analysis can be found in Abhidharma works on citta and caitasika/cetasika.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 14th, 2019 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: The first five patriarchs on meditation
Content:
Dgj said:
The sources and quotes that say Bodhidharma taught meditation.

Astus wrote:
See McRae's The Northern School and the Formation of Early Chʻan Buddhism, p 16-19. He quotes there the Xu Gaoseng Zhuan:

'Feeling compassion [as a result of the decline of the True Teaching in this] obscure corner [of the world (i.e., China), Bodhidharma sought to] lead [the people here to enlightenment] by means of the Dharma. He first reached Nan-yueh within the boundaries of the Sung and later crossed north again to the Wei. Wherever he went he gave instruction in the teaching of meditation (ch'an-chiao). At the time the practice of lecturing [on the Buddhist scriptures] had spread across the entire country, so that [people] often slandered [Bodhidharma] upon hearing the Dharma of samadhi (ting-fa).'


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 14th, 2019 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: The first five patriarchs on meditation
Content:
Dgj said:
Does anyone know the exact sources and quotes?

Astus wrote:
For what?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 13th, 2019 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: True existence and substantial existence
Content:
jnanavinaya said:
Then, a thought, for instance is not a substance.

Astus wrote:
Nothing is a substance. Things seem substantial because of ignorance, substantiality is an incorrect assumption.

jnanavinaya said:
But it is still a dualistic phenomenon, isn't it?

Astus wrote:
The dualism of self and other is another way to say substantiality.

jnanavinaya said:
But the sentence is implying  that "insubstantiality" and "emptiness" are synonyms.

Astus wrote:
Emptiness is the absence of substance, i.e. insubstantiality.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 13th, 2019 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: True existence and substantial existence
Content:
jnanavinaya said:
"Conceptual product" and "conceived object" occur at one time, and both as an illusion, so I didn't quite get your point why then it is a deciding factor.

Astus wrote:
If substantiality is understood to be a conceptual product then it is no longer a substance, an independent entity, but a mere name, while if substantiality is attributed to the object, that is, the object exists on its own, then it is mistaken to be something graspable.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 12th, 2019 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Content:
Dgj said:
Do you know of a book where the author explains that most of the accounts are fictitious?

Astus wrote:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=x2ZxQk2AfYsC
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nisoDQAAQBAJ


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 12th, 2019 at 6:23 PM
Title: Re: True existence and substantial existence
Content:
Astus wrote:
Existence is insubstantial (nihsvabhava), as there is no substance (svabhava) to be found in anything. At the same time, whenever we say that something is/exists, that is conceiving a substance right there. And if we say something does not exist, that is still thinking of a substance. The reason being is that to be a thing, an object of conception, it has to be conceived on its own, as a stand alone, independent entity. The deciding factor is whether one recognises substantiality as a conceptual product, or as the attribute of the conceived object. Now here to wonder about the level of existence of made up objects is like debating the hidden motives of fictional characters in a novel.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 12th, 2019 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Content:
Dgj said:
Do you happen to know of a book where it is flatly stated that most of the accounts are fictional? Or something along those lines?

Astus wrote:
That is a bit simplistic approach. Consider family stories, how they can become quite colourful, expanded, reduced, changed, or even overwritten by time, and by intentional editing if they were to become novels or films. The stories of teachers can be similar, but it needs to be looked into one by one. I recommend you read some of the studies regarding the various recorded sayings.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 12th, 2019 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Content:
Dgj said:
The sixth patriarch of what, though? If there was no delineated Chan school, then what was he talking about?

Astus wrote:
Shenxiu posited himself as a transmitter of Hongren's teachings, and Shenxiu's disciples claimed that he was the true sixth patriarch counting from Bodhidharma. It was Shenxiu, and especially his disciples, who began the establishment of a special lineage. Shenhui simply took the idea of lineage from Bodhidharma and exchanged Shenxiu for Huineng.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 12th, 2019 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Content:
Dgj said:
And what have scholars found when they make these comparisons? Do they find the Gong Ans accurate, or highly fabricated?

Astus wrote:
One can only compare one written source with another. There is fairly little from the Tang era to use, and much less of what can be compared with the stories used in Song era collections. In any case, it is hardly controversial to say that most of the accounts are fictional. Here are two opinions on Zen stories:

'It has been noted that Zen was essentially associated with the literati and the means of dissemination of Zen, such as Recorded Sayings, history of lamp transmission, collections of koan stories, and so on, was highly literary and textual. Zen is basically a literary tradition and a high level of literacy is necessary for understanding the meaning of Zen.'
(Leaving for the Rising Sun by Jiang Wu, p 34)

'Unfortunately, the majority of the exchanges or anecdotes composed in the encounter dialogue format are not very good stories, in any meaningful sense. In fact, a huge number of Chan stories or exchanges, included in texts such as Jingde chuan deng lu and Bi yan lu, can be viewed as little more than nonessential ramblings, a peculiar type of religious gibberish. Basically, we are confronted with countless examples of mass-produced textual materials that tend to be highly formulaic, numbingly repetitive, and ostensibly pointless. One of the things that keeps amazing me is how otherwise intelligent or sincere people can take this sort of stuff seriously, although the history of religion is filled with blind spots of that sort.'
(The Records of Mazu and the Making of Classical Chan Literature by Mario Poceski, p 170-171)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 12th, 2019 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Content:
Dgj said:
Was chanzong used in the Song, once Chan started to become more known as such?

Astus wrote:
Very much.

Dgj said:
Also, if there was no specific delineation of a Chan school, what was Shen Hui preaching about when he spoke of Northern and Southern schools?

Astus wrote:
Shenhui made the claim that Huineng was the sixth patriarch and not Shenxiu.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 12th, 2019 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Content:
Dgj said:
whatever history may be in them is nearly impossible to discern because of the enhancing and alteration. Correct?

Astus wrote:
It depends on available sources to compare them with.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 11th, 2019 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Shouting, Hitting, etc.
Content:
Dgj said:
Are there any other teachers who taught Zen with no practices and with instant enlightenment as Shen Hui spoke of?

Astus wrote:
First of all, Shenhui instructed people to abide by the precepts, to read and recite Mahayana sutras, and to recognise the nature of their mind in meditation. Secondly, the teaching of no-thought of Shenhui is well known and accepted all over the Chan school, since it is present in the Platform Sutra and the teachings of other masters. In a way, Hongzhou teachers like Mazu and Huangbo were more radical than Shenhui, plus there were the teachings of Wuzhu. This direct path of no-thought, that is based on the prajnaparamita teachings, is fine with likely every Mahayana teacher, but the problem usually is that just learning about the fact that all appearances are empty and no thought has ever arisen not only does not trigger awakening in people, it hardly makes any sense at the beginning either.

'When people of highest intelligence and knowledge hear the preaching of prajnaparamita, they are able to understand (what they hear), take it to heart, preach it and put it into practice; those of average intelligence, though not capable to grasp (the meaning), might yet succeed when they take pains to find a teacher (who can help them); those of the lowest intelligence, let them only believe and not relapse, might in the future also be able to embrace the ten points of the Mahayana creed (and in consequence get understanding).'
(The Sermon of Shen-Hui, tr W. Liebenthal)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 11th, 2019 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Content:
Dgj said:
Faru is the first to be known as a "Chan master" where "Chan" denotes a certain subset of Buddhism that denotes a lineage to Bodhidharma.

Astus wrote:
Not exactly. It is Faru's epitaph that is the first known instance where the connection between Bodhidharma and Hongren is claimed to exist.

Dgj said:
If not, when did "Chan" stop meaning simply "Dhyana" and first take on the meaning: A subset of Buddhism that denotes a lineage to Bodhidharma?

Astus wrote:
Chan still means dhyana in Chinese, that's not changed. When and who was the first to use the term chanzong (禪宗) to indicate what we now understand as the Chan school, I don't have a clear answer for that, but Zongmi (780–841) did use the term as such.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 11th, 2019 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Content:
Dgj said:
What is the scholarly concensus on the historicity of the gong an cases of the Blue Cliff Record, Gateless Gate, etc.?

Astus wrote:
First of all, consider Yuanwu's words found in the commentary to the first case in the Blue Cliff Record:

'According to tradition, Master Zhi died in the year 514, while Bodhidharma came to Liang in 520; since there is a discrepancy of several years, why is it said that the two met? This must be a mistake in the tradition. But I will not discuss the matter of what is recorded in tradition now; all that is important is to understand the gist of the matter.'
(The Blue Cliff Record, BDK ed, p 15)

So, historicity is not really an issue, especially not in the case of a gongan collection. Apart from that, gongan collections took their stories from other works, primarily the transmission of lamp records. About them Heine notes:

'The anecdotes about momentous interactions in addition to sayings and doings of Tang Chan ancestors were collected and incorporated into a wide variety of voluminous Song writings in which the narratives were significantly enhanced or altered in order to serve as an adroit means for evoking an indirect pathway to the attainment of awakening. Chan literary activity of the eleventh and twelfth centuries was marked by a veritable explosion of texts produced with strong government backing, as well as supervision and oversight with regard to the process of editing and publication. This sometimes greatly affected or skewed the results by leading to a distinctive sectarian outlook or stylistic emphasis based on divisions among the Five Houses of Chan according to their local variations.'
(Chan Rhetoric of Uncertainty in the Blue Cliff Record by Seven Heine, p 49)

Finally, in order to see the difficulty of tracing to such stories, read https://terebess.hu/zen/Records-of-Yunmen.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 11th, 2019 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Content:
Dan74 said:
I don't believe the Chan tradition is a fraud.

Astus wrote:
What do you understand the Chan tradition to be? Is it an unbroken lineage of mind-to-mind transmission directly from teacher to disciple? Or is it something else? If it is something else, something sublime beyond historical events, then it has little to do with historical scholarship.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 11th, 2019 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Content:
Dgj said:
Thanks. So, for example, Hongren in his time wouldn't have been known as a part of something called Chan as a unique meaning for the word signifying, at least, a lineage from Bodhidharma? He would have been called a member of the East Mountain teaching, or just a Buddhist master? He would have likely seen himself as an heir to Bodhidharma, but had no such label as Chan in mind? But then after Faru the label Chan was starting to be used as such?

Astus wrote:
Faru's epitaph is the first to connect Bodhidharma and Huike to Hongren, and it is Shenxiu who claimed to be a representative of the East Mountain teaching. So likely Hongren had no such idea of being a member of some exalted lineage, but his disciples elevated their stature through being heirs of something extraordinary (cf. Seeing Through Zen, p 48).

Dgj said:
So Shenxia, Huineng and Shenhui would have, in their day, been known as Chan masters and heirs to Bodhidharma?

Astus wrote:
The term "meditation teacher" (chanshi 禪師) was a general one for anyone with a focus on meditation. In the Gaoseng Zhuan (高僧傳) from around 520 there are 32 monks (6.4%) mentioned as meditation specialists out of 499, then the Xu Gaoseng Zhuan (續高僧傳), from 667, lists 134 (19%) of 705 monks, while the Song Gaoseng Zhuan (宋高僧傳), from 988, gives 132 (20%) meditation specialists out of 656 eminent monks (see: Monks, Rulers, and Literati, p 42-43), showing a clear trend of the rising position of the meditating monk (for more on these three collections see: The Eminent Monk: Buddhist Ideals in Medieval Chinese Hagiography by John Kieschnick), and in the third collection a large number of them are monks of the Chan school (from Hongren to Caoshan Benji, 103 Chan masters in all plus 29 appended). So, while the idea of a Chan school (禪宗) - and here the word 'zong' (that is usually translated as school here) should be recognised to carry the meaning of lineage - certainly existed in the 9th century, it was identified generally with the descendants of Bodhidharma in the Song era.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 10th, 2019 at 5:55 PM
Title: Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Content:
Dgj said:
What about simply what these people were called? Were Linji and Chou Chou known as Chan teachers/practitioners in their time? Or were they probably known as members of some other school until the word "Chan" started to be applied to them after the fact?

Astus wrote:
'Chan does not define itself as being one among a number of Buddhist schools based on a particular scripture (such as the Tiantai [Tendai] school with its emphasis on the Lotus Sutra, for example). Instead, Chan texts present the school as Buddhism itself, or as the central teaching of Buddhism, which has been transmitted from the seven Buddhas of the past to the twenty-eight Indian patriarchs, the six Chinese patriarchs, and all the generations of Chinese and Japanese Chan and Zen masters that follow. (Bodhidharma occupies a pivotal position as both the twenty-eighth Indian and first Chinese patriarch.) It took several centuries for this entire schema to be developed; the earliest building blocks appeared at the very end of the seventh century, and the complete system was published perhaps as early as 801 but certainly by the year 952.'
(Seeing Through Zen by John McRae, p 4)

What a Chan teacher is is defined by what we mean by Chan, and Chan in general is defined by lineage. McRae's, like many of those of other scholars who studied Chan history, discusses the development of the idea of lineage, so for clearer details you might want to look into them.
As for what these people were called, as monks they were venerable teachers, respected abbots, and many of them quite influential. On the other hand, what appears in later works as radical Chan rhetoric and behaviour, that is mostly the work of Song era writers, while what they possibly said and did were fairly standard Mahayana.

Dgj said:
Perhaps a better question is: when did people start to be known as Chan masters and Chan students with the word Chan meaning a specific subset of Buddhism as opposed to simply it's literal meaning: meditation (Chan=Dhyana=meditation)?

Astus wrote:
'In a sense, a Chan sayings record created its Chan master, rather than the other way around.'
(J. L. Broughton, in Zongmi on Chan, p 40)

It's the 'sayings record' (yulu) genre of the Song era that created the image of the Chan master that we still have today.

Dgj said:
For example, as you said above, in the Song they did use Chan to delineate certain people in said lineage. One could become a Chan lineage holder and lead monasteries. What about pre Song: was there any such delineation?

Astus wrote:
The first lineages (descending from Bodhidharma) appeared in the early 8th century, but those were meant to emphasise the superiority of a single line of transmission rather than a whole school. In the 9th century works of Guifeng Zongmi there is the idea of a more complex Chan school with several lineages.

Dgj said:
If not, how were the pre Song Chan masters picked and labeled as such and when and why did this suddenly become a thing? Who first invented Chan and who decided to posthumously name unrelated teachers as Chan lineage holders?

Astus wrote:
It was an organic development over several centuries. But in terms of firsts, it's Faru's epitaph that is the first record of a lineage from Bodhidharma to Faru himself as an heir of Hongren.

Dgj said:
Is it something like if someone today said:

Astus wrote:
Establishing a specific lineage can happen in several ways. What makes Chan a single school is how the various lineages agree on a single source, in this case the Indian patriarchs and the first six Chinese patriarchs. Such a single source itself took time to develop. And then it was also a process how the works delineating the various Chan lineages appeared (see e.g. Lineage and Context in the Patriarch’s Hall Collection and the Transmission of the Lamp by Albert Welter in Zen Canon, p 137-179).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 10th, 2019 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Content:
Dgj said:
It sounds like this author fleshed out what Mcrae probably hoped to say by implication: Chan was never an institutionally separate school at any time in Chinese Buddhist history before the Song.

Astus wrote:
Chan was never an institutionally separate school, full stop. What developed during the Song was the system of Chan lineages to legitimise the superiority of a small group of elite monastics that made them seemingly more qualified to lead monasteries than other candidates. But just because the abbot belonged to a Chan lineage, that did not have to affect the lives of the monks themselves, and it did not change the ordination process, nor the financial matters of the monastery.

Dgj said:
Could the pre Song Chan masters just as easily be claimed by another school, or seen as independent, and unrelated to Chan?

Astus wrote:
There isn't that much information about most of the Tang era masters, apart from what was written centuries later about them or in their names. Guifeng Zongmi, for instance, is regarded not only as a Chan teacher but also as the fifth patriarch of Huayan.

Dgj said:
What about all the famous Tang masters? Were they all part of some type of group that worked and taught in the same system at least? Or were they totally unconnected, and were teachers of different schools, re labeled as teachers all in one lineage only post humously?

Astus wrote:
Chan was not and is still not a unified organisation.

Dgj said:
How and why did this happen? Someone out of nowhere, said: Let's make up a school, call it Chan, and say that all these Buddhist monks from history were members of this school? Surely it cannot be that simple and guileful?

Astus wrote:
You should definitely read Schlütter's book, plus others like:
The Northern School and the Formation of Early Chʻan Buddhism by John R. McRae
The Power of Patriarchs: Qisong and Lineage in Chinese Buddhism by Elizabeth A. Morrison
Enlightenment in Dispute: The Reinvention of Chan Buddhism in Seventeenth-Century China by Jiang Wu
Readings of the Platform Sutra by Morten Schlütter, Stephen F. Teiser
Monks, Rulers, and Literati : The Political Ascendancy of Chan Buddhism by Albert Welter
The Linji Lu and the Creation of Chan Orthodoxy: The Development of Chan's Records of Sayings Literature by Albert Welter


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 10th, 2019 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Shouting, Hitting, etc.
Content:
Dgj said:
what of Shen Hui's Zen? ... Since all schools trace their roots to Shen Hui, shouldn't all, or at least a few teach this Zen?

Astus wrote:
The only notable person who claimed to be a descendant of the Heze School was Guifeng Zongmi, and he actually included seated meditation as an important practice, furthermore, he was the one advocating the format of "sudden enlightenment, gradual practice" based on Shenhui's teachings. After Zongmi there is no outstanding teacher of the Heze line, although his ideas lived on in the teachings of Yongming Yanshou and Bojo Jinul. By the Song era all schools traced their lineage through Huineng's two putative disciples: Qingyuan Xingsi and Nanyue Huairang; while Shenhui was put aside as a second rate student who stuck to the concept of awareness/knowing (zhi 知).

If you're looking for teachers who did away with the various methods, Bankei Yotaku was one such individual, and more recently Daehaeng Kun Sunim.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 9th, 2019 at 4:20 PM
Title: Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Content:
Dgj said:
What does this mean? That people in, for example, the Tang dynasty, wouldn't even know what the Chan school was? Wouldn't know a single person denoted as a Chan Master? Are all Chan labels and persons only known as such in retrospection?

Astus wrote:
'the entire lineage prior to the Song is best understood as a mythical construct, a sacred history that served to legitimize the Song Chan school and its claim to possess a special transmission. Even in the Song, the Chan lineage was subject to constant manipulation and reinterpretation in order to legitimize the lineages of certain masters and their descendants or to bolster polemical and religious claims.
In any case, the only clearly defining characteristic of a Song Chan master was that he or she was recognized as holding a transmission in the Chan lineage. Only such a person was a member of the “Chan school.” As T. Griffith Foulk has pointed out, there was no special category of “Chan monastics” in the Song, because there was no special Chan ordination. In China, unlike in Japan, all monastics were, and still are, ordained into the general Buddhist order and not into a particular sect. The vast majority of monks and nuns did not aspire to membership in the Chan transmission family or any of the other transmission families that appeared in the Song. Those who did, however, typically underwent decades-long training in special public monasteries, and only then would they receive the transmission and become members of their master’s lineage.
However, among the Song secular elite, just like in modern popular understanding, Chan was considered distinctive not so much for its lineage as for its unique literature and its depictions of iconoclastic Chan masters.'
(How Zen Became Zen by Morten Schlütter, p 15)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 9th, 2019 at 4:06 PM
Title: Re: Shouting, Hitting, etc.
Content:
Astus wrote:
First of all, gongans are literary works and not historical accounts. As religious anecdotes they have their place and function, but their use depends on the users, i.e. how one reads them. Although it was Dahui who spread the kanhua method that became the dominant technique in Chan, the use of stories as a way to establish a Chan identity can be traced back as far as the Record of the Transmission of the Dharma Jewel (Chuan Fabao Ji 傳法寶紀) and the Record of Teachers and Disciples of Lanka (Lengjia Shizi Ji 楞伽師資記), both being early 8th century texts found in the caves of Dunhuang.
So, if you're looking for masters who teach like those in the stories, that is understandable, but not realistic. Although there are rituals that replicate gongan-like events (e.g. Dharma combat ceremony - called hossen shiki 法戰式 in Soto), and there can be individual situations where a shout or a hit is used, but unfortunately there is no simple and easy way to awakening. Hanshan https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/HanshanDeqing.html#c: "If it was actually so easy to become awakened to the Way as [claimed by] people of the present, then considering the integrity of practice of ancients such as Chang Ching who wore out seven sitting cushions and Chao Jou who for thirty years permitted no unfocused use of mind, those ancients had to have been of the very dullest of faculties. They wouldn't even be fit to serve you moderns by holding your straw sandals!" And Xuyun said ( https://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Master_Hsu-Yun_Discourses_and_Dharma_Words.pdf ): "When the ancient masters received their students, either they used their staffs (to beat them) or they shouted (to wake them up) and there were not so many complications. However, the present cannot be compared with the past, and it is, therefore, imperative to point a finger at the moon."


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 7th, 2019 at 6:49 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Grigoris said:
Who gets to decide what is canonical?

Astus wrote:
E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Buddhist_council

Grigoris said:
Who gets to assess derivation?

Astus wrote:
That's probably up to each individual/organisation.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 7th, 2019 at 4:17 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Varis said:
A Buddhism devoid of so-called "superstition", divorced from popular Theravada at that time.

Astus wrote:
If I get you right, the westernised interpretation means relying on canonical scriptures and rejecting practices that cannot be derived from them. If so, that is not necessarily a western idea, as that view is found at other times and other places in Buddhism. On the other hand, even if it's considered an external influence, as it simply means emphasising canonical authority, it is not introducing something new or foreign. Also, have those popular practices disappeared, or is it more like being less accepted among certain monastics?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 6th, 2019 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Choosing between Chan, Zen, Jìngtǔzōng, and Jōdo Shinshū
Content:
Astus wrote:
Chan and Pure Land should not really be thought of as separate schools, they're rather Mahayana methods that can be used either together or apart.

For a clearer picture, see these for instance:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/pureland.pdf
https://archive.org/details/PureLandPureMind/page/n3
https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/yin_kuang.pdf
https://www.ymba.org/books/buddhism-wisdom-faith-pure-land-principles-and-practice
https://www.ymba.org/books/mind-seal-buddhas
https://www.ymba.org/books/taming-monkey-mind-guide-pure-land-practice


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 6th, 2019 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Zen Practice
Content:
Astus wrote:
Basically there are two types of Zen practices: kanhua/kanna 話頭 and mozhao/mokusho 默照. For a short summary see: http://chancenter.org/download/free-books/In-the-Spirit-of-Chan.pdf. On kanhua practice see: http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020; and on the mozhao practice: https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/leaflet/heartofzen/pdf/Heart_of_Zen.pdf. Also, as a counter-balance to oversimplification, you might want to read: http://chancenter.org/download/free-books/ChanPracticeandFaith.pdf.
But there are many variations on them, so Zen practice can actually mean quite a few things.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 5th, 2019 at 6:44 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Varis said:
Their ideas on meditation were modern, based on their westernized interpretations of the suttas and the vishuddhimagga.

Astus wrote:
What is a westernised interpretation?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 5th, 2019 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: Stumbled across Thich Thanh Tu's Truc Lam Thien materials in English...
Content:
Sentient Light said:
I think what he's doing is pointing out that the whole Vipassana-only kind of meditation isn't traditional, isn't founded in the scriptures we have from the Buddha (even the Nikayas/Agamas), and doesn't have an ancient lineage of meditation instruction connected to it.

Astus wrote:
Aren't there monasteries that maintain Mahayana and Thien practices? On the other hand, Thich Thanh Tu revived/reinvented the Truc Lam school that died out centuries ago, so wouldn't his criticism about the lack of 'Orthodox' tradition apply more generally than just those who took up Vipassana?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 4th, 2019 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Grigoris said:
the Thai context

Astus wrote:
The vast majority of current Thai monks do not belong to the reform movement started in the 19th century. That does not mean nothing has changed, but at least there wasn't any controlled change either.

Grigoris said:
I find it very difficult to believe that Lankan Theravada would not have been influenced by this long-standing spiritual and academic tradition.

Astus wrote:
It was in the 12th century that Parākramabāhu I "purified" the monastic community, and practically abolished non-Theravada communities, that resulted in the gradual disappearance of other schools.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 4th, 2019 at 7:50 PM
Title: Re: Stumbled across Thich Thanh Tu's Truc Lam Thien materials in English...
Content:
Astus wrote:
There are two other parts I'd highlight.

On meditation and study ( http://www.tvvu.thienvienvouu.com/media/NOI%20QUY%202018%20-%20Ban%20In%20Lan%202_VO%20UU.pdf, p 53-55):
Since Vietnamese Buddhism inherits the treasure  of  Meditation  Tradition  but  fails  to faithfully preserve it so this tradition has been deviated.  Henceforth,  meditation  monasteries advocate Dual  Practice  of  Meditation  and Study, that is the practice of meditation and study of sutras and discourses on the Dharma. Moreover,  at the present time,  many Vietnamese monastics  practice  meditation  but  few  truly practice  Orthodox  Meditation  Tradition,  they may  be  easily  misled;  consequently,  they  may become physically ill or mentally disturbed. So, if meditation monasteries do not introduce the study of sutras and discourses taught by the Buddha and Patriarchs to provide strong support to Meditation Tradition,  many  monastics  would  not  be  able to  avoid  uncertainty  and  nervousness.  That  is the  fundamental  reason  monastics  in  meditation monasteries must study sutras and discourses.

On sitting meditation ( http://www.tvvu.thienvienvouu.com/media/NGHI%20THUC%20THIEN%20MON%202018_Ban%20In%20Lan%202_VO%20UU.pdf, p 127-131):
There  are  three  methods  for  beginning practitioners:
a. Counting The Breath Method: “Sổ” means to count, “tức” means breath, “counting the breath method” signifies observing the in-and-out breaths, counting silently from one to ten. There are two ways to count the breaths: fast and slow.
Fast  counting: Inhale completely, count “one”, exhale totally, count “two”..., continue to “ten”. Then  restart  from  “one”.  [Keep  counting in this manner during the entire sitting meditation session.]
Slow  counting:  Inhale  completely  andexhale totally, count “one”; inhale completely and exhale totally, count “two”, continue to “ten”. Then restart from “one”. Keep counting in this manner during the entire sitting meditation session. While counting from “one” to “ten”, halfway if forgetting  or  suspecting  that  the  numbers  are mixed up, restart the counting from “one”.
Having practiced for some time, practitioners count correctly without making mistakes, then they can proceed to the Observing The Breath Method.
b. Observing The Breath Method:
“Tùy” means observe, “tức” means breath. “Observing the breath method” signifies following and observing the breath. As we inhale, we know where the breath is, as we exhale we also follow and observe the breath, we are fully aware of it.    While observing the breath, the practitioners also realize that life exists in the breathing. Exhaling without  inhaling,  life  stops  existing. The  breath is impermanent, life is also unstable, unreal and temporary.
When  the  breath  observation  is  skillfully practiced, the practitioners can proceed to the next stage:
Recognizing The True Mind.
c.Recognizing The True Mind:
This is the essential part of the Zen meditation practice in Zen meditation centers.
From the practice of observing the breath,
- The practitioners progress to the stage of stopping  the  observation,  the  mind  is peaceful and concentrated.
- At  this  moment,  the  practitioners consistently   remind   themselves “Mind-consciousness fully aware of its mental objects is True Mind”.
- Reminding in this manner until the True Mind is recognized, then we only need to  acknowledge  that “True  Mind  is present”.
Pay attention to the practice at this stage, it should not be too tense, be awake and clear-minded, gently preserve the practice.      Once fully adept with recognition of the presence  of  the  True  Mind’s  awareness,  then proceed on to the stage of living with the True Mind’s nature.
The practitioners recognize that True Mind signifies “know perpetually and clearly without thoughts”.
- Perform  this  practice  until  completely skillful, only keep in mind the two words “no thoughts”.
- Abandon the two words “no thoughts”, thus, the mind is limitless and everlasting.
If feeling dreamy or drowsy, open eyes wide, reorganize the practice.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 4th, 2019 at 6:42 PM
Title: Re: Stumbled across Thich Thanh Tu's Truc Lam Thien materials in English...
Content:
Astus wrote:
See also previous topic: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=11662.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 4th, 2019 at 3:28 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Varis said:
Grigoris is correct, it's really not an oversimplification at all. There was a concerted effort to remove what was regarded by the Dhammayuttika Nikaya as superstitious and non-Buddhist practices from Theravada monasteries. In effect, it was a protestantization of Theravada Buddhism.

Astus wrote:
First of all, that is only Thailand, not the whole of Theravada. Secondly, even in Thailand the Dhammayuttika Nikaya is still a small minority (around 10% of all monks) after over a century of strong state support.
So stating that the current form of Theravada is the product of a 19th century reform still looks very much like an oversimplification. It is actually similar to how 20th century "reformed" Japanese Zen was projected on the whole of East Asian Buddhism, while it was just the idealised image of a few people (like DT Suzuki).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 3rd, 2019 at 5:42 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Astus wrote:
Taking the topic back on Zen, here are some quotes:

'Because of their inferior capacity, the Tathagata preached to the Hinayanists only the doctrine of the nonexistence of atman and did not preach his doctrines in their entirety; as a result the Hinayanists have come to believe that the five components, the constituents of samsaric existence, are real; being terrified at the thought of being subject to birth and death, they erroneously attach themselves to nirvana.'
(Asvaghosa: The Awakening of Faith, BDK ed, p 57-58)

'To awaken to the incomplete truth of voidness of self and then practice is inferior-vehicle dhyana.'
(Chan Prolegomenon, in Zongmi on Chan, p 103)

'One just cultivates the discerning wisdom of non-self (the truth of the path) in order to cut off passion, etc., stop all karma, and realize the thusness of voidness ofself. He obtains the fruit of stream enterer, [the fruit ofonce returner to this world, and the fruit of non-returner to this world,] up to and including extinguishing all evil bonds and obtaining the fruit ofarhat (the truth of. extinction). Having burned up body and extinguished knowledge, he is eternally free of all suffering.'
(Chan Prolegomenon, in Zongmi on Chan, p 126-127)

'If he activates the various ascriptive views for a single moment, he will fall into the way of heresy. If he perceives there to be generation [of the elements of reality] and moves toward [a state of ] extinction, he will fall into the way of the sravakas. If he does not perceive there to be generation but only perceives extinction, he will fall into the way of the solitary enlightened ones (pratyekabuddhas).'
(Huangbo Xiyun: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 24)

'The party of perverse teachers teaches members of the scholar- official class “to unify mind, to do stillness- sitting, to pay no attention to any matter [mundane or supramundane], and to go on stopping- to- rest.” Isn’t this nothing other than using [ false] mind to put [ false] mind to rest, using [ false] mind to put a stop to [ false] mind, using [ false] mind to exert [ false] mind? If you practice in this way, how could you not fall into an outside Way or into the extremist annihilationism of “Chan peace and quiet” found in the Hīnayāna-hearer and private-buddha vehicles?'
(Dahui Zonggao, in The Letters of Chan Master Dahui Pujue, p 126)

(Moreover, as the Dharma Master Wonhyo said:)
'Furthermore, in Lesser [Vehicle] sages’s assumptions about the mind, because initially the nature is produced, through progressively subtle mental states (viz., lesser sages gain access [to higher states of meditative absorption] through the three expedients of gradual subtlety, gradual refinement, and refined refinement), [those sages] attain mental extinction; [however, since this state] is devoid of wisdom or its radiance, it is no different from empty space. In Great Beings’ [S. Mahāsattva] understanding of the mind, because originally the nature is unproduced, [those bodhisattvas] do not aspire to extinction by leaving behind subtle thoughts; rather, through the presence of authentic, radiant wisdom, they realize the dharmadhātu.'
(Bojo Jinul: Encouragement to Practice: The Compact of the Samādhi and Prajñā Society, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 131)

'Some people do not realize that the nature of merit and demerit is empty; they sit rigidly without moving and suppress both body and mind, like a rock crushing grass. To regard this as cultivation of the mind is a great delusion.
For this reason it is said, “Śrāvakas eradicate their delusions thought after thought, but the thought to perform this eradication is a brigand.”'
(Bojo Jinul: Moguja’s Secrets on Cultivating the Mind, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 228)

'In the zazen of patch-robed monks, first you should sit correctly with upright posture. Then regulate your breath and settle your mind. In the lesser vehicle originally there were two gateways, which were counting breaths and contemplating impurity. In the lesser vehicle, people used counting to regulate their breath. However, the buddha ancestors’ engaging of the way always differed from the lesser vehicle.
A buddha ancestor said, “Even if you arouse the mind of a leprous wild fox, never practice the self-regulation of the two vehicles.”'
(Dogen: Eihei Koroku, p 348)

'Those of the two vehicles are distressed and fall into empty voidness; ordinary people are attached and tangled up in discriminations.'
(Dogen: Eihei Koroku, p 375)

'The ancestral teacher Nagarjuna said, “Zazen is exactly the Dharma of all buddhas, and yet, those outside the way also have zazen. However, those outside the way make the error of attaching to its taste and to the thorns of false views. Therefore it is not the same as the zazen of buddhas and bodhisattvas. The two vehicles of Ÿr›vakas [and pratyekabuddhas] also have zazen. However, those two vehicles [seek to] control their own minds, and have the tendency of seeking after nirvana. Therefore, this is different from the zazen of buddhas and bodhisattvas.”
The teacher Dogen said: The ancestral teacher Nagarjuna spoke like this. We should know that although the name of zazen (sitting meditation) is used by those of the two vehicles and those outside the way, it is not the same as the sitting transmitted by buddha ancestors.'
(Dogen: Eihei Koroku, p 459)

'A questioner asked: “If one were truly able to attain an empty mind, would he return directly to the void, never to be born again?”
Bassui responded: “That is the view of nonexistence held by heretics and those of the two vehicles. Of what value could this be to one who has obtained the Way? Actually, holders of this view are inferior to dogs and wild foxes.”'
(Mud and Water: The Collected Teachings of Zen Master Bassui, p 176)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 3rd, 2019 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Grigoris said:
But I do not believe that they are the same thing that existed in the Buddha's time...

Astus wrote:
Nothing remains the same, right? Nevertheless, the Buddhadharma is still present and alive today, so it's not yet lost either, consequently one can learn it now just as much as one could at the time of the Buddha. The main point is that current Theravada is not a product of a 19th century reform, nor was there any one reform in the 19th century that affected the entirety of Theravada. Also, reformations of Buddhist communities is not a new phenomenon, as it's occurred several times where people intended to return to or keep the correct teaching (e.g. in Sri Lankan Buddhism: the writing down of the Tipitaka, the revival and reform during the Polonnaruwa era (11-13th c.), the revival and reform of the monastic community by the rulers of Kandy during the 16th and 18th centuries).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 2nd, 2019 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Grigoris said:
plenty of in-fighting regarding the validity of  Buddhgosha and his Visudhimagga?

Astus wrote:
It doesn't change his importance. Furthermore, the modern changes in Theravada does not negate the tradition's roots and continuity. For instance, there were significant reforms in the Soto and Rinzai schools in the last couple of centuries, but those do not make them disconnected from their past history.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 2nd, 2019 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Grigoris said:
Theravada is not a Yana, it is a sub-category of the Shravakayana.

Astus wrote:
Theravada is a school all right, but it's neither limited to the sravaka path, and more importantly, nor is it a unified tradition. Even in the same country there are different teachers with diverse methods. Theravada is a living tradition, and the fundamental teachings and practices go way back before the 19th century. E.g. Buddhaghosa, Theravada's probably most influential teacher, lived in the 5th century.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 2nd, 2019 at 6:40 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Grigoris said:
The current form of Theravada is a 19th century reformation movement.

Astus wrote:
That is a serious simplification, that could as well be applied to the various Mahayana schools as well. For instance, just because the Rime movement appeared in the 19th century, and Humanistic Buddhism in the 20th, it does not render the whole of Mahayana a new thing.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 31st, 2019 at 4:08 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
Astus wrote:
It doesn't really make sense to unify schools. Mahayana includes and accepts the Agamas and Abhidharma works, while if a Theravadin were to accept Mahayana scriptures and treatises that would simply make that person a Mahayana follower, unless they come up with a new explanation of how the Mahayana is a subsidiary of the Theravada doctrines, thus not unifying the schools but actually creating a new one.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 27th, 2019 at 8:03 PM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
DharmaChakra said:
Traditions are seperated by cultrual differences only

Astus wrote:
Differentiating the three families (gotra) of sravaka, pratyekabuddha, and buddha is an Indian Buddhist doctrine that is accepted by all surviving Buddhist schools, regardless of location.

'The nirvedhabhagiyas are of three types by reason of the distinction of the three gotras or families. The ascetic belongs to the family of the Sravakas, Pratyekabuddhas or Buddhas; and Heat, the Summits, etc., are of the family of the ascetic who cultivates them.'
(Abhidharmakosabhasyam, vol 3, p 940, tr Pruden)

DharmaChakra said:
the essence of the practices is one

Astus wrote:
What essence?

DharmaChakra said:
Intellectuals study concepts ... Yogis study states of being

Astus wrote:
States of being are concepts as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 16th, 2019 at 5:21 PM
Title: Re: Do Bodhisattvas and non-historical Buddhas "exist"?
Content:
£$&^@ said:
is a literalist interpretation and is not taught by all Vajrayana teachers.

Astus wrote:
What part is not taught? That bodhisattvas are born in samsara, that the birth of arya bodhisattvas is different from ordinary beings, or that it is OK to pray to them?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 16th, 2019 at 3:04 PM
Title: Re: Do Bodhisattvas and non-historical Buddhas "exist"?
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
So if only beings in the formless realms have no body, then do Avalokiteshvara, Manjushri, Ksitigarbha etc have some form of body, even if it isn't the flesh and blood body of a human being?

Astus wrote:
Bodhisattvas, similarly to other beings, are reborn in the three realms. The difference between the rebirth of noble (awakened) and ordinary beings is that the former is not driven by afflictions but by compassion and vows.

KiwiNFLFan said:
Also, is it okay for Mahayana Buddhists to pray to Buddhas/Bodhisattvas for help with day-to-day problems, the way Christians or Hindus pray to their God(s)?

Astus wrote:
Of course.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 16th, 2019 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Are yidams and Tibetan Buddhist "deities" actually real?
Content:
Astus wrote:
'The question of the degree of existence of the yidams is often asked. Yidams really exist, but in a way different from ours, because they are not conditioned by karma.
Avalokita, for example, is an emanation of the compassion of all the Buddhas, appearing with the intention of helping all beings. It is a totally pure manifestation from its origin, and is in no way the result of karmic causes supplying the white color of its body, the lotus in the left hand, the rosary in the right hand, and the other characteristics. The different traits and attributes of Avalokita are only the formal expression of compassion.
Likewise, its two eyes mean that it possesses perfect knowledge and compassion. With the first eye, it completely knows the totality of phenomena of the cycle of existence and liberation. Having the eye (Tibetan, chen) of compassion, unceasingly (Tibetan, re) it watches (Tibetan, zig) beings with love. Consequently, its name in Tibetan is Chenrezig. The silks and jewels are worn to indicate that it is endowed with all the qualities of Awakening.'
(Kalu Rinpoche: Secret Buddhism, p 22-23)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 15th, 2019 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Are yidams and Tibetan Buddhist "deities" actually real?
Content:
Astus wrote:
'The dharma protectors serve entirely to increase all favorable conditions for our dharma practice and to help us remove the various obstacles which can arise in our dharma practice. It is very important that we really believe that they are really there and that we have confidence in their power to help. If we do not have this complete confidence, we will receive little benefit from them.'
(Thrangu Rinpoche, in The Three Vehicles of Buddhist Practice)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 15th, 2019 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Do Bodhisattvas and non-historical Buddhas "exist"?
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
do Bodhisattvas, Dharma Protectors, non-historical Buddhas like Amitabha and the Medicine Buddha actually "exist"?

Astus wrote:
Yes, although calling them "non-historical" is questionable.

KiwiNFLFan said:
What I mean is, is there an actual being called Avalokiteshvara out there somewhere, presumably in a non-corporeal form, who listens to the cries of the world and helps those who call upon Him/Her?

Astus wrote:
Yes, but only beings in the formless realms have no body.

KiwiNFLFan said:
Also, does this vary across schools of Mahayana Buddhism? Are some schools more likely to say that Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are real, while others are not?

Astus wrote:
People accustomed to a materialist view have trouble dealing with some basic parts of Buddhism. Nevertheless, even if somebody cannot yet accept a different view and needs think of them as symbols, just by appreciating the symbolism there is a connection.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 14th, 2019 at 5:57 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
subsequently to follow a non-causal path to attain permanent liberation.

Astus wrote:
What non-causal path would that be? Sravakas change to the bodhisattva path that consists of accumulating wisdom and merit through the cultivation of the paramitas, i.e. a causal path.

Sherab said:
It is not a non-causal path.

Astus wrote:
What is a non-causal path?

Sherab said:
Then the quote that you provided previously does not imply that there is no non-causal path.

Astus wrote:
Since both sravakas and bodhisattvas attain liberation through analytical cessation, and analytical cessation involves intention, effort, etc., it is not without cause. Apart from those two what could you call a non-causal path?

Sherab said:
was intended to show that there is a non-causal path.

Astus wrote:
That sutta says nothing about a path. It simply states that there is nirvana, the unborn and undying, the cessation of suffering. Therefore, it is relevant for the 3rd noble truth, the goal, but not the path (i.e. the 4th noble truth).

Sherab said:
In fact, it is more indicative of the relative is NOT all there is.

Astus wrote:
Agreed, and that was not a contended point. What does that have to do with what sort of non-causal path?

Sherab said:
If the relative is all there is

Astus wrote:
That is not anyone's position, consequently problems of a non-existent position are not actual problems.

Sherab said:
If the relative is all there is, the cessation of consciousness results in annihilation.

Astus wrote:
Since there has never been a self, what/who is annihilated? Also, consciousness is impermanent, rises and ceases every moment, so you might as well say that there is annihilation all the time, however, because there is also birth every moment, it is not really annihilation.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 13th, 2019 at 4:19 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
You have not explained why arhats need to be awakened by the Buddha.

Astus wrote:
I have not even touched that topic, so what explanation do you want?

Sherab said:
There are the other two gates of liberation: signlessness and emptiness.  They do not mean that the practitioner should be without discrimination of signs and without discrimination of emptiness?  (warning: double negatives)

Astus wrote:
The problem is not with the phenomena that occur, it is with the identification with and grasping at them. Aiming for blankness is the wrong approach.

Sherab said:
I don't understand this part of the quotation: "… unmoving dharmas of the world … decaying, unfixed appearances".  What do you think are the unmoving dharmas of the world that are decaying, unfixed appearances?

Astus wrote:
Moving dharmas refer to the kamadhatu, unmoving dharmas refer to the rupadhatu and arupadhatu (as they're the dhyana realms), so together they mean the three realms, the whole of samsara. ( http://ddc.shengyen.org/mobile/text/07-13-2/86.php )

Sherab said:
If the relative is all there is

Astus wrote:
See my https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=492136#p492136. Also note that the doctrine of the two truths is fairly universally accepted among Buddhists.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 12th, 2019 at 3:30 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
If analytical cessation is all that is needed, then the Buddha need not awaken arhats so as to lead them to buddhahood.

Astus wrote:
It is a type of cessation, and as such can apply to both the complete elimination of klesavarana and jneyavarana, as the provided quote from the Cheng Weishi Lun states. It does not mean that the nirvana of arhats and buddhas are identical. What it means is that the elimination of hindrances requires wisdom, it doesn't happen on its own (i.e. without cause and effort).

Sherab said:
One of the gates of liberation is wishlessness or without intent.  Intent or wish is an action, an effort.  To wait has the aspect of expecting something.  That is an action, an effort.

Astus wrote:
Wishlessness is a type of samadhi, it doesn't mean a practitioner should be without aspiration and effort. To put it another way, there is relative and there is absolute bodhicitta, and one needs both of them. Similarly, one needs both method and wisdom, where method includes the viryaparamita.

'All of you Bhikshus! You should always single-mindedly and diligently seek the way out of all the moving and unmoving dharmas of the world, for they are all decaying, unfixed appearances.'
( http://www.cttbusa.org/bequeathed_teaching/sutra.htm )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 11th, 2019 at 3:50 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
The cessation achieved by arhats is from following a causal path.  That is why the Buddha has to awaken them subsequently from their temporary cessation and lead them to buddhahood.

Astus wrote:
Analytical cessation applies to both sravakas and bodhisattvas.

'Pratisamkhyanirodha is of two kinds: a. obtained by the destruction of bonds, that is to say, obtained when one has cut off the klesas that cause rebirth; b. obtained by the destruction of barriers, that is to say, realized when all remaining barriers have been cleared away.'
(Cheng Weishi Lun, p 765, tr Wei Tat)

Sherab said:
The non-causal path cannot involve any effort.  To maintain the mind in a state of waiting for awakening is an effort.

Astus wrote:
Where liberation is without cause one can do nothing to become liberated, and that's why such an incorrect view can be called waiting for awakening.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 10th, 2019 at 5:59 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
The path to permanent liberation is non-causal.

Astus wrote:
Among the three unconditioned dharmas (AKB I.5-6, vol 1, p 59-61) there are two types of cessation: with and without analysis, of which the former means nirvana, and the latter just ordinary cessation of things. So liberation has not only a cause in general, but it must be specific, hence the requirement for a path that leads one to freedom from afflictions. As Wangchuk Dorje explained:

'Cessation that is analytic is cessation attained by the power of analyzing suffering and the other noble truths with full knowing. Its essence is a cessation that is a removal of defiled dharmas.'
(Jewels from the Treasury, p 104)

Also, a path means a way that takes one from point A to point B. It is per definition causal, hence a "non-causal path" cannot exist.

'you absolutely must not maintain your mind in a state of waiting for awakening. If you maintain your mind in a state of waiting for awakening, then the eye of the Way will be blocked by the waiting state of your mind.'
(Letters of Dahui, p 311)

'People in many ages from the ancient past to the present have thought that the words “when the time has come. . .” are about waiting for a time in the future when the buddha-nature might be manifest before us. [They think that,] continuing their practice with this attitude, they will naturally meet the time when the buddha-nature is manifest before them. They say that, because the time has not come, even if they visit a teacher and ask for Dharma, and even if they pursue the truth and make effort, [the buddhanature] is not manifest before them. Taking such a view they vainly return to the world of crimson dust and vacantly stare at the Milky Way. People like this may be a variety of naturalistic non-Buddhists.'
(Dogen: Bussho, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 7)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 9th, 2019 at 5:57 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
there is a path to temporary liberation and a path to permanent liberation.

Astus wrote:
So, there is agreement on the matter of there being a path one needs to follow in order to become liberated.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 8th, 2019 at 4:45 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
Yes, but why should this imply that the relative is all there is?

Astus wrote:
No such implication was made. The point is that there is no unconditioned apart from the conditioned, furthermore, that there is a path to liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 7th, 2019 at 4:21 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
As I mentioned before, logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned. This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.

Astus wrote:
That is an erroneous logic that fails to take account of what conditioned and what unconditioned mean, of what the conventional and what the ultimate truth are. From the same chapter 2 of the Samdhinirmocana Sutra (BDK ed):

'if the descriptive marks of ultimate meaning were entirely different from the marks of conditioned states of being, then those who have already gained insight into truth would not have expunged images of conditioned states of being. And if they had not expunged images of conditioned states of being, then they would not have attained liberation from bondage to those images. Not being liberated from those images, they would not be freed from bondage to their gross weaknesses. Not being freed from bondage to gross weaknesses, those who have gained insight into truth would have been unable to attain the quiescent cessation of supreme skill or full, perfect awakening. ... 
Suviśuddhimati, neither is it the case that those who have gained insight into truth have not been able to expunge all the images of conditioned states of being, for they have indeed been able to expunge them. It is not the case that those who have gained insight into truth have been incapable of liberation from bondage to the images of conditioned states of being, for they have indeed been capable of such liberation. It is not the case that those who have gained insight into truth have been incapable of liberation from bondage to gross weaknesses, for they have indeed been capable of such liberation. It is precisely because they have been capable of liberation from these two obstacles that they have been able to attain the quiescent cessation of supreme skill and to realize full, perfect wisdom. Therefore, the opinion that the descriptive marks of the truth of ultimate meaning are entirely different from the descriptive marks of conditioned states of being is not reasonable. If some say that the marks of the truth of ultimate meaning are entirely different from the marks of conditioned states of being, from the above argument you should understand that this opinion is neither intelligent nor truly reasonable.'
(p 18-19)

'On the other hand, if the descriptive mark of the truth of ultimate meaning were entirely different from conditioned states of being, then it would not be true that all conditioned states of being are manifestations only of the absence of self, of the absence of essence. The marks of ultimate truth would then simultaneously be held to be characterized in two different manners, one of defilement and one of purity. But, Suviśuddhimati, these marks of conditioned things are indeed different. Those who practice meditation do search for ultimate meaning in the conditioned states of being they have seen, heard, understood, and known. Also, all conditioned states of being are indeed manifestations only of the absence of self, the absence of essence, and they are rightly termed marks of ultimate truth. It is not true that it is simultaneously characterized in two manners, one of defilement and one of purity.'
(p 20)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 6th, 2019 at 6:39 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
Accumulation of merit and wisdom is not denied.

Astus wrote:
then it is very much a relative and causal path to buddhahood
Without the unconditioned there is no liberation from the conditioned.  Udana 8.3
'Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist.'
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 12)
Admittedly, a straightforward read of Udana 8.3 is impossible for those who believe that the relative is all there is.
Because it is relative, how could it be assumed to actually exist? Hence appearances are empty, and there is no emptiness apart from appearances.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 6th, 2019 at 3:37 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Sherab said:
There is a path to cessation/liberation and there is a 'path' to buddhahood.

Astus wrote:
Only if you do not accept the ekayana doctrine is there three paths.

Sherab said:
The former path is a path in the relative.  The latter path is a 'path' in the absolute.  The former path is causal; the latter path is not.

Astus wrote:
Do you deny the necessity of accumulating merit and wisdom? If not, then it is very much a relative and causal path to buddhahood. If yes, then you deny the whole possibility of attaining buddhahood.

Sherab said:
Logically speaking, there is no path that can take a practitioner from the conditioned to the unconditioned.  This is because what is conditioned and what is unconditioned are mutually exclusive.

Astus wrote:
There is no such thing called the unconditioned. It is the cessation of ignorance, the elimination of the two types of obscurations, that brings about enlightenment.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 6th, 2019 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Viach said:
Practitioners on the first two paths have no the wisdom that was realized on the path of seeing. They have nothing to get used to. The difference is here.

Astus wrote:
There are stages. First one learns (śruta), then one understands (cintā), and after that one cultivates (bhāvanā) the teaching. All three are different https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Three_wisdom_tools.

'Firm in his cultivation, endowed with teaching and reflection, he will be capable of giving himself up to meditation.'
(AKB VI.5ab; vol 3, p 911)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 5th, 2019 at 6:09 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Viach said:
Afflictions are based on a dualistic mind, but not practice(of the fourth path). These are different things.

Astus wrote:
Since noble beings have afflictions, their practice is not based purely on non-dualistic prajna either. So, where is the difference between the application of mindfulness on the different paths?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 5th, 2019 at 5:46 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Viach said:
They are fundamentally different: the first are based on the dualistic mind, the second on the non-dual prajna.

Astus wrote:
Even for a noble being there are afflictions, and afflictions can exist only based on a dualistic mind, hence the need for practising.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 5th, 2019 at 4:55 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Viach said:
On the first two paths ones do not practice 8NP.

Astus wrote:
All eight paths and three trainings are used during the first two paths. Just look at what those paths are made up of in Patrul Rinpoche's summary. At the same time, recognise that what Patrul Rinpoche describes follows the Yogacara interpretation of those paths where they fit the 37 bodhipaksadharma into a path system.
Or do you believe that there are different practices of morality, meditation, and wisdom when it's on one path or another? The application of mindfulness is the application of mindfulness, whether it's on the first or the fourth path.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 5th, 2019 at 4:17 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Viach said:
Yes, Arians are staying in one place. This place is called reality (the way it is). This is the "practice"(bhāveti) of vipashyana. They walk the path (the path of seeing (darshanamarga) and the path of intense contemplation ( bhavana marga)) from the first bhumi (one place) to the tenth (another place).

Astus wrote:
You are missing the first two parts of the path, the way how one arrives at the third, the path of seeing.

'the path is fivefold: [1] path of preparation (sambhāramārga), [2] path of application (prayogamārga), [3] path of vision (darśanamārga), [4] path of cultivation (bhāvanāmārga), and [5] path of conclusion (niṣṭhāmārga).'
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 141)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 4th, 2019 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Viach said:
Obviously, if the Path were a set of practices, the Buddha would use the word paṭipajjati, related to paṭipadā. But, he used the word bhāveti, associated with the word bhāvanā, i.e. Path is a description of the eight qualities of a meditative state already achieved. (Path is stable stay (in time and in circumstances) in this meditative state). Q.E.D.

Astus wrote:
Meditation is not something that just is, it is cultivation, it is training, it is practice. A path is something that leads from one place from another, it is not where one stays around. Also, you're neglecting the Four Noble Truths.

good practice - kalyāṇa vatta

'But there is this kind of good practice that has been instituted by me now, which leads to complete disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. And what is that good practice? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. This is the good practice instituted by me now, which leads to complete disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana.'
(MN 83.21)

in these things you should all train - tattha sabbeheva ... sikkhitabbaṃ

'So, bhikkhus, these things that I have taught you after directly knowing them—that is, the four foundations of mindfulness, the four right kinds of striving, the four bases for spiritual power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven enlightenment factors, the Noble Eightfold Path—in these things you should all train in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing.'
(MN 103.3)

comes to fulfilment by development - bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchati

'The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. But his bodily action, his verbal action, and his livelihood have already been well purified earlier. Thus this Noble Eightfold Path comes to fulfilment in him by development. When he develops this Noble Eightfold Path, the four foundations of mindfulness also come to fulfilment in him by development; the four right kinds of striving also come to fulfilment in him by development; the four bases for spiritual power also come to fulfilment in him by development; the five faculties also come to fulfilment in him by development; the five powers also come to fulfilment in him by development; the seven enlightenment factors also come to fulfilment in him by development.'
(MN 149.10)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 3rd, 2019 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Viach said:
Does anyone know if Pali/Sanskrit has a word identical to the English word "practice"? And if so, why did the Buddha not use it, but use the word 'bhāveti'?

Astus wrote:
To https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/practise:
1. Perform (an activity) or exercise (a skill) repeatedly or regularly in order to acquire, improve or maintain proficiency in it.
2. Carry out or perform (a particular activity, method, or custom) habitually or regularly.

Bhāveti does have a meaning similar to practising something. One of its derivatives is bhāvanā, that is commonly translated as meditation. Another word for practising is paṭipajjati, related to paṭipadā ( 'means of reaching a goal or destination, path, way, means, method, mode of progress' ) - see https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=491432#p491432: 'dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā' (the way leading to the cessation of suffering) -, and it means 'to enter upon (a path), to go along, follow out (a way or plan), to go by; fig. to take a line of action, to follow a method, to be intent on, to regulate one's life'

'What is the Truth of the Path (mārgasatya)? It is the means by which one understands suffering (duḥkhaṃ parijānīte), abandons the origin [of suffering] (samudayaṃ prajahāti), attains the cessation [of suffering] (nirodhaṃ sākṣātkaroti) and cultivates the path (mārgaṃ bhāvayati). This, in brief, is called the characteristic of the Truth of the Path.'
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 140-141)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 3rd, 2019 at 6:03 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Viach said:
The Path as a result of the practice can be developed, it can arise, it can be born. The Path as a set of practices can't be developed, it can't arise, it can't be born. The Path as a set of practices can only be practiced.

Astus wrote:
The path is what one practices. There are no practices to get to the path. And the goal of the path, liberation, is what is the result of practice, not the practice itself is the result.

As it's said of the Noble Eightfold Path: "This is the only path; there is none other for the purification of insight. Tread this path, and you will bewilder Mara." ( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.20.budd.html.274)

Viach said:
the Buddha did not use phrases like 'practice of Path' or 'to practice the Path'.

Astus wrote:
It is right there as the fourth noble truth. But if you mean the Buddha did not use the English word "practice", you are right. What you find, however, is the word 'bhāveti', and it means 'to cultivate' and 'to develop'.

Katame aṭṭha dhammā bhāvetabbā? Ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo seyyathidaṃ—sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati, sammāsamādhi.
What eight things should be developed? The noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.
( https://suttacentral.net/dn34/en/sujato )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 2nd, 2019 at 3:15 PM
Title: Re: Insect karma
Content:
ydnan321 said:
I’ve heard that from a sutra

Astus wrote:
Any concrete title?

ydnan321 said:
the Buddha pointed at an ant and said that it had taken rebirth continuously as an ant in the same place where the past 6 Buddhas had resided. That is infinitely long... I’ve heard stories where animals obtained human or even heaven rebirth upon hearing the Buddha’s preaching or come in contact with Buddha’s holy objects...

Astus wrote:
There are implicit (neyartha) and explicit (nitartha) teachings. Stories, especially those that involve animals, are likely to be like the fables of Aesop, not doctrinal statements.

ydnan321 said:
Why has this ant that had been residing in the same place with the past 7 Buddhas was then not able to escape its ant rebirth?

Astus wrote:
It'd be good to first know the whole story before one starts weaving further thoughts around it.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 1st, 2019 at 3:26 PM
Title: Re: Are there such phrases in the canon?
Content:
Viach said:
is there any evidence of such interpretations in the canon?

Astus wrote:
The very first speech of the Buddha, the https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi, has it: ‘This noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering is to be developed’ (‘Taṃ kho panidaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā ariyasaccaṃ bhāvetabban’ti). The Four Noble Truths itself tells exactly that the eightfold path is the path leading to the cessation of suffering. You may also look into the https://suttacentral.net/sn45 for basic teachings on the N8P.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 29th, 2019 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Liberate all living beings
Content:
Norden said:
Bodhisattva vows not to attain nibbana before save all living beings.

Astus wrote:
A bodhisattva vows not to attain the nirvana of the sravakas (aka nirupadisesa-nirvana) but the mahaparinirvana of the buddhas (i.e. apratisthita-nirvana), in other words, a bodhisattva aims for buddhahood and not arhatship.

Norden said:
Samsara will always exist. Even the Buddha couldn't save all living beings, how is it possible for a Bodhisattva to save all living beings?

Astus wrote:
Buddhas do not stop liberating beings.

'Without conceptual thoughts or efforts, Buddhas manifest benefit for sentient beings spontaneously and unceasingly.'
(Gampopa: Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 297)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 29th, 2019 at 3:24 PM
Title: Re: Emotions = suffering?
Content:
mariel.hespanhol said:
In the Four Seals, it is said that all emotions are suffering.

Astus wrote:
It is generally a good approach to look for the original term instead of an English translation.

The Tibetan has that seal as all https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asava (zag bcas) are duḥkha (sdug bsngal ba). At the same time, in the Dharmasamgraha ( https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Dharma-Sangraha/Dharmas-041-060.htm#toc14 ) it is all compounded (saṃskāra) are suffering, while the http://www.fodian.net/world/0599.html ( http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T15n0599_001 ) has all beings (一切皆) suffer (苦).

mariel.hespanhol said:
Am I wrong to interpret that this sentence simply means that duality is suffering?

Astus wrote:
It depends on what you understand by duality. It is probably better to say that all actions with (i.e. tainted by) clinging are related to suffering.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 27th, 2019 at 5:13 PM
Title: Re: 18 dhatu and samjna and vedana
Content:
Si-va-kon said:
I want to understand which of the 18 dhatus are samjna, vedana and samskara.

Astus wrote:
The dharmadhatu.

'These three skandhas, with avijnapti and unconditioned things, are the dharmayatana, the dharmadhatu.'
(AKB 1.15b-d, vol 1, p 73, tr Pruden)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 24th, 2019 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: Becoming a Buddhist Scholar
Content:
mani said:
How does one becomes a Buddhist scholar? How to get started? Where to study? How to do it if one doesn't have any money?

Astus wrote:
If by scholar you mean an academic person, some answers have been provided, but there is no need to focus on US universities, there are several options in Europe and Asia as well.
But if you mean scholar in a more general or traditional sense, you should get started by reading, and keep doing that, until you've become well read in Buddhism. Then it's up to you how deep you want to go in what subject.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 23rd, 2019 at 6:02 PM
Title: Re: Karma and the Definition of Time
Content:
Astus wrote:
'The  whole  world  is  cause  and  effect;  excluding  this,  there  is  no  sentient  being. From  factors  (which  are)  only  empty,  empty  factors  originate.'
(Nagarjuna: The Stanzas of The Heart of Interdependent Origination, in ' http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nagarjuna.pdf ', p 58)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 22nd, 2019 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
SunWuKong said:
But that's not to say others have not been harmed in the process.

Astus wrote:
Whatever pain or pleasure one experiences, they are the products of one's actions. That includes those inflicted on oneself by others.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 22nd, 2019 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
SunWuKong said:
I was speaking about harmfulness and harming, which you seem to deny, even though it's one of the 5 precepts.

Astus wrote:
The subject is action and effect. The Buddhist view is that everybody experiences the effects of one's own actions. You seem to claim that one can experience the fruits of others' deeds, a view that is incompatible with the Buddha's teachings.

"Student, beings are owners of kammas, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.nymo.html )

'When suffering, a practitioner of the Way should reflect: “For innumerable kalpas, I have pursued the trivial instead of the essential, drifted through all spheres of existence, created much animosity and hatred, maligned and harmed others endlessly. Even though now I have done no wrong, I am reaping the karmic consequences of past transgressions. It is something that neither the heavens nor other people can impose upon me. Therefore I should accept it willingly, without any resentment or objection.”'
( http://ctzen.org/sunnyvale/enUS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=57 )


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 21st, 2019 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
SunWuKong said:
People do commit evils and others do suffer as a result, correct? Freedom from suffering means one might receive the result, but they are already gone beyond...

Astus wrote:
Blaming others for one's problems, like waiting for others to fix one's problems, results in passivity and negates the point of practising the path. Furthermore, it means that people are incapable of defining what happens to them. That is why the Buddhist doctrine of karma means that the effects of actions fall on the one who did them. See the quote from Gampopa posted in this thread https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=490237#p490237. And here is a commentary to it by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche:

'The third section describes how karma is always experienced by its creator. A loose translation would be a boomerang that always returns to the person who throws it.
If we consider our actions and we ask, "Who will experience the results?" It is said that the earth will not experience the results., neither will stones or somebody else. The result will inevitably return to oneself, to the same body considered the sel£ If you have done something then the result will not be experienced by your children or by your neighbor, which is totally impossible. Whatever you do will necessarily come back to you; you and nobody else will have to experience the result. And there is no possible mistake; everything will return to you just because you were the one who did it.'
(The Jewel Ornament of Liberation, p 87)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 20th, 2019 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
SunWuKong said:
The karma from "your" past and "your" present affects more than just you, it affects everyone.

Astus wrote:
That would mean if one commits something evil, another will suffer the consequences of that act, in which case it's impossible to be free from suffering, since one is not responsible to what is experienced.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 20th, 2019 at 7:06 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
Wayfarer said:
That they’re not eternal.

Astus wrote:
Faith in the Triple Jewel is quite specific. The standard script for their recollection (anussati) and praise (vandana) (SN 55.1, tr Bodhi; cf https://suttacentral.net/sf137/san/sander as what's used in https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc82362.html by Nagarjuna):
"Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple possesses confirmed confidence in the Buddha thus: ‘The Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.’
He possesses confirmed confidence in the Dhamma thus: ‘The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.’
He possesses confirmed confidence in the Sangha thus: ‘The Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples is practising the good way, practising the straight way, practising the true way, practising the proper way; that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals—this Sangha of the Blessed One’s disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.’"

Wayfarer said:
The reason being that the critique of impermanence (or more broadly ‘the three marks’) applies to the skandhas/aggregates which I parse as ‘the phenomenal domain’. But the principles of Buddhism  -  dependent origination and karma - always obtain. They don’t only apply some of the time but not other times; which is why they are realised and taught by all the Buddhas of the ‘three times’.   Isn’t that so?

Astus wrote:
Principle and phenomena cannot be separated, there is no impermanence apart from impermanent things, no emptiness apart from the five aggregates. So although it could be said that things are always impermanent, there is no such thing as impermanence that is eternal.

'The conventional is taught to be emptiness; 
The emptiness itself is the conventional; 
One does not occur without the other, 
Just as [being] produced and impermanent.'
( http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/Awakening%20Mind%20Commentary.pdf, v 68)

Although the truth of how things are is always valid, so pratyekabuddhas can attain liberation (MMK 18.11-12), they do so without the presence of a teacher, of a teaching, and of a community - i.e. the Three Jewels.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 20th, 2019 at 5:08 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I have to confess I am rather uncomfortable with that claim.

Astus wrote:
What part? Faith in the Triple Jewel, or that they're not eternal? And why?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 20th, 2019 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
Queequeg said:
Isn't focusing on what is unchanging what one does in practicing faith?

Astus wrote:
One puts faith in the Triple Jewel, however, those are not permanent. There are unconditioned dharmas (the number depends on the system), but having faith in them might be a bit strange (e.g. faith in space). So, one should rely on, i.e. have faith in, what is conducive to liberation, and that's how faith itself is a factor on the path to enlightenment.

BTW, the difference between the duration of material and mental moments is mentioned in Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p 154, 156-157.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 19th, 2019 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
Queequeg said:
different rates of (perceptible) change.

Astus wrote:
Somewhat relevant: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 19th, 2019 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Are there esoteric schools of Mahayana in Chinese tradition?
Content:
Astus wrote:
https://www.academia.edu/25175930/Is_there_really_Esoteric_Buddhism?fbclid=IwAR3Wa5nmvYgXZ9-DejSr-qdsF7jj7qJSn70uYCvBUc0rfrsaoCBhhAljyzQ by Richard D McBride


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 19th, 2019 at 8:15 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
smcj said:
My point being that the DW dismissiveness  of religious faith and external divinity in Vajrayana should not go unchallenged.

Astus wrote:
This is not about having issues with faith and various beings.
One can receive blessings because of one's faith and devotion, that is why the level of purity of the object one believes in does not matter. So it is irrelevant whether the teacher is enlightened or not, and it is irrelevant whether the relic is real of fake, one receives blessings even from a fake/ordinary object as long as there is devotion, and does not receive blessings even from a real/supreme object if there is no devotion.
On the other hand, various buddha-lands have various conditions, so it does matter where one aims to gain birth, because the requirements differ. That is why mindfulness of Amitabha is called the easy way, because the requirements are easy to meet, while gaining birth in other buddha-lands is usually not possible for ordinary beings.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 19th, 2019 at 3:36 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
Wayfarer said:
the same conditions will always give rise to the same effects.

Astus wrote:
However, conditions change, hence effects change. Furthermore, the lute simile is used for the entire set of nama-rupa, and there is nothing beyond nama-rupa. This absence of a substratum beyond nama-rupa is one of the key points of the referenced section, and in relation to karma it's meant to demonstrate the lack of any karma carrier.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 19th, 2019 at 3:31 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
smcj said:
Both citations are fully supportive of receiving blessings.

Astus wrote:
Sure, receiving blessings is one of the primary methods in Vajrayana. The point is, however, that blessings do not come from an external source.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 19th, 2019 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clases with the concept of individual karm
Content:
Matt J said:
lack of any sort of alayavijnana that can carry karmic seeds. Rather, the mind was simply a series of states of consciousness.

Astus wrote:
The idea of seeds (bija) is a Sautrantika one, while the alayavijnana (not identical to bhavanga-citta) is a Yogacara concept. Other schools had other explanations.

Pa-Auk Tawya Sayadaw (The Workings of Kamma, p 15, n 56) refers to this passage in the Visuddhimagga (XX.96, ATI ed, p 658):

'There is no heap or store of unarisen mentality-materiality [existing] prior to its arising. When it arises, it does not come from any heap or store; and when it ceases, it does not go in any direction. There is nowhere any depository in the way of a heap or store or hoard of what has ceased. But just as there is no store, prior to its arising, of the sound that arises when a lute is played, nor does it come from any store when it arises, nor does it go in any direction when it ceases, nor does it persist as a store when it has ceased (cf. S IV 197), but on the contrary, not having been, it is brought into being owing to the lute, the lute’s neck, and the man’s appropriate effort, and having been, it vanishes—so too all material and immaterial states, not having been, are brought into being, and having been, they vanish.'


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 18th, 2019 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
smcj said:
I think it’s pertinent to this thread.

Astus wrote:
How so? It is a practice. Furthermore, it is a practice about realising that the actual nature of one's mind is pure. It is not a new idea either. See for instance:

'In meditating on one's mind, there is no mind one can seize, except the mind that comes from one’s perverted thought. The mind, present in such a form rises from one’s false imagination. Like the wind in the sky, which has no foothold. Such a form of the law neither appears, nor disappears. What is sin? What is blessedness? As one’s own mind is void of itself, sin and blessedness have no existence. In like manner all the laws are neither fixed nor going towards destruction. If one repents like this, meditating on his mind, there is no mind he can seize the law also does not dwell in the law. All the laws are emancipation, the truth of extinction, and quiescence. Such an aspect is called the great repentance, the greatly adorned repentance, the repentance of the non-sin aspect, and the destruction of discrimination. He who practices this repentance has the purity of body and mind in the law but free as the flowing water.'
(The Sutra of Meditation on the Bodhisattva Universal Virtue, tr Bunno Kato, p 223)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 18th, 2019 at 4:21 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clases with the concept of individual karm
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Extinction of Karma is the point of practice in Theravada.

Astus wrote:
Extinction of greed, anger, and ignorance is the point of any Buddhist path. Removing all past karma, that is a sort of Jain idea, and not a Buddhist one.

Johnny Dangerous said:
AFAIK in Theravada, you cannot have something like Vajrasattva-style purification, where karmic fruits ripen in a less severe way due to  a practice, much less a blessing... you can just eliminate causes.

Astus wrote:
The impact of the result of past actions depends on the present state of mind. Please read the https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.099.than.html. At the same time, there is no removal of past karma in Mahayana either, as one cannot just dive into the storehouse consciousness and root out seeds, rather through enlightenment the eight consciousnesses are transformed into the four wisdoms.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 18th, 2019 at 4:02 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
smcj said:
“Blessings” are what alters karma.

Astus wrote:
Blessing is a consequence of faith, it is not an external magical power changing people's karma, but a product of one's own devotion.

'The compassion and blessings of the Three Jewels are inconceivable, but nevertheless their ability to reach into us depends entirely on our faith and devotion. If you have immense faith and devotion, the compassion and blessings you receive from your teacher and the Three Jewels will be equally immense. If your faith and devotion are just moderate, the compassion and blessings that reach you will also be moderate. If you have only a little faith and devotion, only a little compassion and blessings will reach you. If you have no faith and devotion at all, you will get absolutely nothing. Without faith, even meeting the Buddha himself and being accepted as his disciple would be quite useless'
(Patrul RInpoche: Words of My Perfect Teacher, p 173)

'Whether those blessings enter your being depends not on the object of your devotion but on your own mind. We've all heard the story about the old lady who had incredible faith and devotion toward a dog's tooth, thinking that it was the BUddha's tooth. Though it was just a dog's tooth, she received the Buddha's blessings and attained enlightenment, which was due not to the thooth but entirely to her strong faith and devotion.
The enlightened mind of the buddhas is free of partiality, so whether you receive their blessings or not depends on the strength of your devotion and your dedication to your practice.'
(Penor Rinpoche, in An Ocean of Blessings, p 9)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 17th, 2019 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clases with the concept of individual karm
Content:
Brunelleschi said:
Transformation of the seed of karma is not a thing in Theravadan Buddhism?

Astus wrote:
Not so. See e.g.: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.099.than.html

There is no real difference between Buddhist schools regarding karma, only about how the functioning of karma is explained.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 17th, 2019 at 5:34 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
Wayfarer said:
How is that reconciled with the Pure Land principle that the recitation of the Nembutsu is all that is required for rebirth in Sukhavati regardless of one’s acts?

Astus wrote:
Not even recitation is required according to some, only faith and vows. However, faith and vows are the individual's action (karma) to attain birth. What Amitabha made possible through his vows were the conditions sufficient for attaining birth. So it's like a school that accepts all applicants, but it does not mean non-applicants enter. As it's expressed in Honen's famed stanza ( http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/honenpoems.html ):

'There is no place where the moonlight
Casts not its cheering ray;
With him who has the seeing eye
Alone that light will stay.'

On the other hand, if one being could actually change the 'karma' of another, then buddhas would have already saved everyone.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 17th, 2019 at 4:19 PM
Title: Re: Theravadan critique - absolving karma through Bodhisattvas (other power?) clashes with the concept of individual kar
Content:
Brunelleschi said:
absolving karma through hearing the name of a bodhisattva clashes with the concept of karma as something strictly individual.

Astus wrote:
Karma is strictly individual in Mahayana as well.

'The third point is [ownership — the fact] that actions determine your personal lot. The consequences of the actions that someone has done will be experienced by that person alone: they come to maturity in the aggregates of their doer and in no one else.'
(Gampopa: Ornament of Precious Liberation, IV.6, tr Holmes)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 17th, 2019 at 3:27 PM
Title: Re: Recommend an English Translation of Kamalashila's (c. 9th century CE) Bhāvanākrama
Content:
SunWuKong said:
Trying to find method for the Indo-Tibetan practice of vipaśyanā.

Astus wrote:
'Meditation and The Concept of Insight in Kamalasila's Bhavanakramas', a thesis by Martin Adams, contains a good translation of the three treatises.

SunWuKong said:
Any other ancient texts on vipaśyanā given consideration.

Astus wrote:
There are quite a lot if you call ancient everything before the 18th century, unless by "Indo-Tibetan" you mean works written by those few Indians who went to Tibet, in which case apart from Santaraksita and Kamalasila you should check out Atisa (e.g. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=F9aEDwAAQBAJ ).

For early sources see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_sutras, especially the references section where you find some translations and studies.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 16th, 2019 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Guidance for Lay People
Content:
Queequeg said:
It's cultivation of aversion, whether it's the being or ones idea of the being that is denigrated.

Astus wrote:
It is revulsion/disgust/turning away (nirveda), as contemplation of foulness (asubha) is the primary antidote for greed (raga).

Queequeg said:
Fortunately we have higher teachings that don't require such cultivation of basically wrong view as a cure for one's fault.

Astus wrote:
Meditation on impurities is a technique meant to overcome the misperception of impure things as pure that forms the basis of desire. If someone is not much affected by desire, then it is possible to skip to more subtle techniques to remove the root of lust. But there is no teaching where one can remain enjoying samsara and at the same time be free from it.

Nagarjuna wrote:

'The three poisons are not destroyed by themselves, and there is no other way to destroy them than to contemplate the inner and outer physical characteristics (ādhyātmikabāhyakāyanimitta) to which one is attached [but that are repulsive]. The three poisons are destroyed only after this contemplation. That is why the bodhisattva who wants to destroy the poison of lust (rāgaviṣa) contemplates the nine notions [so as to teach them to beings].'
( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225636.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 16th, 2019 at 4:55 PM
Title: Re: Guidance for Lay People
Content:
如傑優婆塞 said:
It's interesting when compared and contrasted to this list...
"In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:

Astus wrote:
From The Sutra on Upasaka Precepts, ch 14 (BDK ed, p 71-72):

'The west represents one’s wife. If anyone can provide his wife with garments, food, bedding, medicine, and adornments such as necklaces set with precious stones, he is making offerings to the west. The wife responds in fourteen ways: (1) in whatever she does, she does her best; (2) she is constantly at work and never gets lazy, (3) she completes whatever she does; (4) she does things promptly without losing time; (5) she often entertains guests; (6) she cleans the house and bedding; (7) she is loving and speaks gently; (8) she instructs servants gently; (9) she keeps property well; (10) she rises early and goes to bed late; (11) she cooks well; (12) she is patient in receiving teaching; (13) she covers up [her husband's] faults; and (14) she takes care of her husband when he is sick.'


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 16th, 2019 at 3:36 PM
Title: Re: Guidance for Lay People
Content:
Queequeg said:
This whole line of practice is, frankly, shitty.

Astus wrote:
Asubha practice is usually not taught to the laity, partly because they rarely aim for renouncing lust.

Queequeg said:
That object happens to be another human being.

Astus wrote:
The object is one's conception of an external stimulus.

Queequeg said:
condemned as Hinayana

Astus wrote:
The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugraparip%E1%B9%9Bcch%C4%81_S%C5%ABtra is a Mahayana sutra quoted in a Mahayana treatise ( https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Shikshasamucchaya ) by a Mahayana teacher ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shantideva ). Mahayana works rarely accept family life as a viable alternative to renunciation.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 16th, 2019 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Guidance for Lay People
Content:
Queequeg said:
Applied to marriage as elective choice, the lack of affection comes across as cold, but also raises the question, why would one bother with marriage and children if one is only going to emotionally abandon them?

Astus wrote:
'Affection' (McRae), or 'passionately attached' (Swanson), are translations for 'ài' (愛), the word that in Buddhist texts are usually for craving (tṛṣṇā, rāga), but can also mean attachment, while in non-Buddhist contexts it means love. So literally the scripture says 'do not love your wife and children' (不愛妻子). It only makes sense that a householder should recognise the dangers and drawbacks of the emotional bonds for family. Of course, if one has no family and prefers renunciation over marriage, then such a person should definitely not marry (or engage in any form of sensual relation). But when one is already a family person, then seeing how the earthly love for one's family perpetuates suffering is certainly a higher level of wisdom.

The Siksasamuccaya (tr Goodman, p 81-82) has some quotes on the matter as well:

'The Inquiry of Ugra also says:
He should abstain from sexual misconduct, satisfied with his own wife, not longing for the wives of others, looking around with an eye free from attraction and a disenchanted mind. He should frequently attend to and reflect on the thought, “Sensual desires are perpetual suffering.”lxvi When thoughts of sensual desire arise in him towards his own wife, and he comes under the influence of reactive emotions, then, seeing the foulness of his wife and with a frightened mind, he should not be bound by attachment to engaging in sensual pleasures, and should always reflect on impermanence, nonself, and impurity. And he should direct his mind as follows: “I should not engage in sensual pleasures even in my thoughts. How much less should I 
engage in erotic love or the contact of sexual organs?”
The same text says:
A bodhisattva should think about his wife in three ways. What are the three? She is my companion in pleasure and play; she is not my companion in the next world. She is my companion in eating and drinking; she is not my companion in experiencing the evolution of actions. She is my companion in happiness; she is not my companion in suffering. And another three: he should conceive of her as an obstacle to moral discipline, as an obstacle to meditative stability, and as an obstacle to wisdom. And another three: he should conceive of her as a thief, as a prisonguard, and as one of the guards of Hell.'

Nevertheless, while abstaining from any and all sensual activity is preferable, upholding moral behaviour is sufficient for householders. It is not much different from the idea of chastity.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 16th, 2019 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Guidance for Lay People
Content:
Grigoris said:
So basically to cultivate this samadhi a lay person should become a monk or nun?

Astus wrote:
Not at all. The sutra describes the expected behaviour of a devout householder.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 16th, 2019 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Guidance for Lay People
Content:
Astus wrote:
John R. McRae's translation:

'How are householders able to cultivate this meditation? Through the fruits of their karma of faith they can reject all material wealth, take refuge in the Three Treasures, and accept the five precepts. Neither evading, breaking, defiling, or being remiss in the precepts, they can accept the ten wholesome paths (i.e., not violate the ten precepts) and bring about the generation of the various types of wholesomeness. Cultivating chaste behavior, they will destroy the five desires. Without generating jealousy, they will have no affection for wives and children but will always take pleasure in leaving home and accepting the eight precepts. Whenever they go to the monasteries they will have feelings of shame. They will always feel reverence toward those who have left home. Never keeping secret the Dharma, they will always take pleasure in teaching others. They will think with affection and reverence of the preceptors, teachers, and those who preach the Dharma. They will think of their parents and spiritual compatriots as if thinking of the Buddha. They will reside with their parents and spiritual compatriots, helping them live in peace. This is how householders can cultivate this dharma of meditation.'
(The Sutra of Mañjuśrī’s Questions, BDK ed, p 131)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 11th, 2019 at 5:37 PM
Title: Re: "Avoid conceptualizations"
Content:
138Velo said:
quotes the Buddha from the Dhammapada

Astus wrote:
Actually, it is a quote from the Tibetan version of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udanavarga ( https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=record&vid=71&level=2&cid=110538, https://web.archive.org/web/20170209062353/padmasambhava.ru/dharma-theory/library/udanavarga/ ), that is not the same as the Dhammapada, nor does that stanza have any parallels in it.

138Velo said:
I just want to make sure I understand the word "conceptualizations" in this context.

Astus wrote:
If you follow Chodron's explanation about the four https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Vipallasa, that is fine.

138Velo said:
The only reason I ask is that I'm a little confused as to why it doesn't say "wrong conceptions" in the first line and the 3rd line if they are the same, so perhaps my interpretation is incorrect.  I have to assume the original language must use different words for this?  Or is it just a different way of saying the same thing, and I'm getting into the weeds on a trifle.

Astus wrote:
Lines 1 and 3 use the same word. Sanskrit:  saṃkalpa; Tibetan: kun rtog (which is the same as rnam rtog, i.e. vikalpana, according to Rockhill, in Udanavarga, p 9). The word 'wrong' is added by Sparham, that's why it's in brackets. In any case, it most likely refers to the basic mistakes (i.e. ignorance about the true characteristics of things) that can be overcome by wisdom.

"Completely overcome by [wrong] conception
People develop irresistible attachments
And see [objects] as clean; the objects of
Attachment increase and their bonds ensnare them.
Those who enjoy calming wrong conception,
Always mindful to meditate
On ugliness, loosen their bonds
By completely giving up their craving."
(Udanavarga 3.1-2, tr Sparham)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 8th, 2019 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka and Right View
Content:
stevie said:
Would it be acceptable for you if I said: 'to apply Madhyamaka reasoning to be able to drop all views and thus attain non-abiding on any view whatsoever'?

Astus wrote:
That is the usual process, and it is the process, the method, that is called Madhyamaka.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 8th, 2019 at 6:48 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
muni said:
If that intellect is the same as the consciousness, then it could be like clarity emptiness but other words?  Inseparable?

Astus wrote:
No, atman and buddhi are separate.

muni said:
by it is impossible to be there a one Self on itself neglecting other, whether this is then seen as a wrong one or a right one. It just has no ground to stay.

Astus wrote:
The self is believed to be the ultimate unchanging knower, and never the known. It is not uncommon that a meditator finds the perceiver/watcher/witness as independent of all the perceived phenomena, and thus assumes it to be the true mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 8th, 2019 at 5:51 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
tobes said:
Again, this sounds a lot more like Samkhya where there is hard division between mind and matter. Surely Brahman being a synonym for reality, encompasses all that is done and all that is not done. i.e. the entire play of seeming plurality-phenomena-causation-time etc is Brahman.
Maybe a modern synonym for Brahman would just be: the universe. It's definitely doing stuff!

Astus wrote:
According to, for instance, Visistadvaitins, that may be so, but for those following Gaudapada and Sankara creation is the product of ignorance and it is unreal (e.g. https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/mandukya-upanishad-karika-bhashya/d/doc143767.html ).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 8th, 2019 at 5:06 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
muni said:
How can "one" be real, and "everything else" not, which is then "things" are "negated"…….. by what? What sees this, what thinks this, what believes this? What experiences this? How can there be a real lasting self on its own? It would vanish when it is on its own!!! How is there "any kind of reality or self on its' own", without there "being an other" perceiving or thinking there is such?

Astus wrote:
The Atman/Brahman doesn't actually do anything in Advaita (apart from just being conscious), so when it comes to the matter of what can understand, it is the intellect (buddhi). You can find the arguments for an ultimate self in Sankara's and others' works, if you really want to dig into it.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 8th, 2019 at 4:49 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
tobes said:
Samvrti is still explicitly defined by Tsong Khapa as 'concealing' - and he is one of the most robust defenders of the notion of two truths being complementary.

Astus wrote:
Sure, it is concealing, since it primarily signifies the mistaken conceptions of ordinary beings. It is a later step where the two truths are realised as undivided. First one aims from samsara to nirvana.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 8th, 2019 at 3:31 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
stevie said:
And as far as Madhyamaka is concerned, if you refer to Madhyamaka as a philosophy then since philosophy is a worldly phenomenon and thus is based on views you are generally right but referring to Madhyamaka as a practice you are not generally right since e.g. in the context of practicing non-abiding Madhyamaka (Apratisṫhānavāda) one does not abide on/in anything and thus a view is impossible. But of course if the practice is not yet finally completed and one slips out of practice due to weakening mindulness then one will again abide on/in views and thus the dichotomy 'appropriate vs. inappropriate views' is relevant again.

Astus wrote:
Madhyamaka is a set of teachings. When one is without elaboration, one abides in non-conceptual wisdom, then there is no point calling it Madhyamaka, only if one wants to specify what non-conceptuality means within Madhyamaka, but then one is within the realm of views. So even the correct understanding and practice of non-conceptuality is a key factor, because Vedantins and Buddhists understand not the same meaning for nirvikalpa. For Vedantins it's the elimination, the total absence of concepts, while for Buddhists it is not being attached to concepts.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 8th, 2019 at 2:52 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
tobes said:
how conventional reality is understood (and practiced), than it does how the ultimate is defined

Astus wrote:
It is important to remember that the two truths in Mahayana are not opposites, nor parallels, but complementary. There is no ultimate apart from the conventional, no emptiness apart from appearances. On the other hand, in Vedanta only one is affirmed as real and everything else is negated as unreal.

tobes said:
In this case, a great deal hinges on the difference between 'like an illusion' and 'is an illusion'. If one takes the latter route, one is sailing mighty close the Vendantic sea.

Astus wrote:
Buddhism doesn't get to the point where phenomena are utterly negated. Appearances can be likened to an illusion or called an illusion, what matters is the intended meaning of those terms. Things are/like illusions because they are not substantial, i.e. empty, but being empty is not denying things, it's negating the misunderstanding about things that causes attachment.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 7th, 2019 at 11:30 PM
Title: Madhyamaka and Right View
Content:
stevie said:
Keeping in mind that views as such are confusion, 'views' as understood acc. to Nagarjuna.

Astus wrote:
Correct view is a basic factor of the path, even in Madhyamaka. After all, that is one of the main reasons for the teachings.

"If higher birth and freedom is your quest,
You must become accustomed to right views.
Those who practice good with inverse views
Will yet experience terrible results.
Know this truth: that men are ever sad,
Impermanent, devoid of self, impure.
Those who do not have close mindfulness,
Their view four times inverted, head for ruin."
(Letter to a Friend, v 47-48)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 7th, 2019 at 4:44 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
tobes said:
What's at stake in this discussion though is this: that we Buddhists charge Vedantins with clinging to existence, in lieu of how Brahman is metaphysically described. I think if that is the assertion, one needs to genuinely enter into the metaphysical debates and make that case sufficiently. Particularly because some great scholars actually think that key texts in that tradition - eg Gaudapadiya Karika - were composed by Mahayana Buddhists.

Astus wrote:
Gaudapada, Sankara, and their followers are explicit in their rejection of Buddhism, so both parties actually agree that their systems are not the same, hence this is not a debated point. See e.g. https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/mandukya-upanishad-karika-bhashya/d/doc143804.html. It is rather the avoiding of definitive statements regarding the views of Buddhists and Vedantins that results in confusion, while actually both sides put in immense efforts to elaborate and specify their doctrines.

tobes said:
how tenable is that charge really, in yogic practice?

Astus wrote:
Very much. Compare the methods of pancaskandha and pancakosa. One results in the skandhas without self, the other results in the affirmation of self and the negation of the kosas.

tobes said:
Someone mentioned a Swami who watches a lot of tv during the day because of the notion of maya/illusion. I think this is a profound point of distinction, because the Buddhist will be much more careful about causation.

Astus wrote:
This is how differently they view the two truths.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 7th, 2019 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I think that is what corresponds with jñāna, is it not? Or, more specifically to the Buddhist context, Prajñāpāramitā.

Astus wrote:
Yes, it is the direct experience of emptiness.

Wayfarer said:
In any case, with respect to the distinction between realisation and experience, I understand that gnosis of any kind pertains to the realm of realisation rather than experience.

Astus wrote:
"If there is no fixation involved in the process, positive spiritual experiences (nyam in Tibetan) will start to lead you to having spiritual realizations (togpa in Tibetan)."
(Mind at Ease, p 46)

Realisation is not just any kind of knowledge, it is the knowledge of emptiness that means the absence of attachment. Experiences and realisation together is the ideal path (see: Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 312-315).


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 6th, 2019 at 4:30 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
It’s timely to recall here the differentiation of ‘experience’ from ‘realisation’.

Astus wrote:
There are two generally recognised sources of knowledge (pramana): perception (pratyaksa) and inference (anumana). When it comes to scriptural sources (sabda), it can be used only where there is agreement between the debaters on what constitutes accepted works, therefore in arguments between very distinct systems (like Vedanta and Buddhism) it is practically useless. As for ascertaining the ultimate truth, it is called yogic perception (yogapratyaksa), attained on the path of seeing (darsanamarga), and for Kagyupas it is the introduction to the nature of mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 5th, 2019 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Rick said:
It's the ultimate mystery, the unknown, sans attributes, beyond (direct) experience, no words/thoughts apply. (And even that is just another description of the ineffable.)

Astus wrote:
Then that is another difference between Buddhism and Vedanta, because what can neither be experienced nor inferred is truly unknowable and as such it is like being in love with a woman one has never known (as in the https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.09.0.than.html ), a meaningless idea.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 5th, 2019 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Rick said:
But both distill down to: There is no essential difference between <apparent> X and <apparent> Y. No?

Astus wrote:
Please elaborate. What are X and Y?

Rick said:
That which is affirmed in Advaita Vedanta (brahman) is not an object, not a subject, can neither be said to exist nor not to exist (Shankara).

Astus wrote:
Atman/Brahman is the sole existent according to Advaita.

"The Real is: Existence-Consciousness-Bliss,Brahman, one without a second"
(Vedantasara 2.33)

"whose own nature is Being, Consciousness, Bliss -- this is the Self."
(Tattvabodha)

"Brahman is Existence-Knowledge-Absolute, extremely pure, Supreme, Self-existing, Eternal, Indivisible-Bliss, not essentially different from the inmost Self , and absolutely without parts. It is ever victorious. This Absolute Oneness alone is Real since there is nothing other than the Self. Truly, there is no other independent entity in the state of full realization of the supreme Truth."
(Vivekacudamani 225-226)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 5th, 2019 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Rick said:
My understanding is that the ultimate fruit of each is realization of nonduality. If this is true, how could there be any difference between the two? There ARE no two!

Astus wrote:
Nonduality does not have the same meaning in Buddhism and Vedanta. In Buddhism it refers to the lack of extremes, while in Vedanta it is affirming one and negating everything else.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 5th, 2019 at 4:27 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
tobes said:
Where do you think that leaves the question of Brahman though?

Astus wrote:
The central point of Vedanta is the oneness of Atman and Brahman, as those are only seemingly separate but actually they are the singular pure consciousness (see e.g.: Vedantasara 1.27). The qualities that apparently distinguish the person (jiva) from the lord (isvara) come from ignorance (Vedantasara 2.35), and they are unreal, just like the rest of creation.

tobes said:
But the definition I gave is widely accepted as a central feature of what it means in relation to other Indian philosophical-Dharmic streams.

Astus wrote:
Vedanta takes knowledge as the only path to liberation, and rejects rituals as effective for that purpose.

tobes said:
How could one accept the authority of the Vedas (including the last ones/Unpanishads) whilst rejecting language as unreal? Given that, the Vedas are basically rituals to order the cosmos framed around sound?

Astus wrote:
Everything is unreal except pure consciousness, that's what advaita means, but it's not the same as denying the Vedas' authority.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 5th, 2019 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Vajrayana Buddhism relies on the oral transmission of explanations of the tantras, themselves.
...
The text do not stand alone.  At all.

Astus wrote:
I am not contradicting that at all. I called the tantras the primary definitive source because they are used as the basic reference by the teachers.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 4th, 2019 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Simon E. said:
Are you saying that the Vajrayana is NOT posited on the authority of its lineage holders?

Astus wrote:
It is primarily the collection of tantras that defines what Vajrayana is.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 4th, 2019 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Simon E. said:
Genuine Vajrayana is posited first and last on the authority of its lineage holders.

Astus wrote:
'Many religious traditions abound, hailed 
as oral and single-recipient transmissions. 
They are acceptable if they agree with the tantras, 
but otherwise they are compilations of falsifications. 
There is also no harm in accepting the transmission 
of teachings in dreams, visions of gods, 
and the like, so long as these accord 
with sutras and tantras. 
But if they do not accord with all the sutras and tantras, 
they should be known as demons' blessings. 
A master, too, should be perceived as a master 
if he is in harmony with the sutras and tantras. 
But, master or no, be indifferent toward him 
if he does not teach in accord with the Buddha's teaching.'
(A Clear Differentiation of the Three Codes, v 532-535, p 166)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 4th, 2019 at 5:48 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
tobes said:
hinges much more on how language is understood than it does metaphysics

Astus wrote:
There are crucial ontological differences between Vedanta and any Buddhist (including Shentong) views. Vedanta holds consciousness an absolute, and rejects everything else. Mahamudra takes consciousness to be empty, and at the same time inclusive of all appearances. This shows well in how the two systems approaches meditation, where in Vedanta one removes impermanent phenomena and stays in the pure consciousness, while in Mahamudra one removes only attachment but does not reject appearances.

tobes said:
Vedanta means most precisely: "accepting the (epistemic) authority of the Vedas"

Astus wrote:
No. It means end (anta) of "lore" (veda), and refers to the Upanisads, as Vedantins mainly base their teachings on those texts.

tobes said:
The acceptance of the Vedas is predicated on realist notions of language, which the Indian grammarians

Astus wrote:
Vedanta teaches only one ultimate, everything else (including language) is a product of ignorance and is unreal.

tobes said:
ultimate truth is non-conceptual and non-linguistic. Finger at the moon et al.

Astus wrote:
That is not a uniquely Buddhist concept. Vedanta also aims to go beyond all mental products, but in a somewhat different manner than Buddhists, and that's where one should pay attention to.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 3rd, 2019 at 3:06 PM
Title: Re: Upcoming translation of Moonbeams of Mahamudra (2019)
Content:
Astus wrote:
Henrik Havlat's translation "Mahamudra: The Ocean of True Meaning" is available. So it's more like one specific translation is restricted, but neither the Tibetan, nor another translation. In any case, Thrangu Rinpoche's commentaries are very beneficial and to the point.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 1st, 2019 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Buddha Nature in Zen
Content:
SunWuKong said:
Tathāgatagarbha in Zen more than likely involves a debate between (1) and (2), negation vs. luminosity.

Astus wrote:
Those are Tibetan issues. Better go with East Asian doctrines when discussing Zen.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 28th, 2019 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana
Content:
prsvrnc said:
when a layman attains arhantship he must either enter the Order or pass away?  How do liberated arhats living in this conventional world get by and survive (if not a trust fund)?

Astus wrote:
The answer is found in your quote: 'The fault does not lie with arahantship but with the state of a layman'. Similarly, https://suttacentral.net/kv4.1/en/aung-rhysdavids states: 'Now for the Arahant the lay-fetters are put away, cut off at the root, made as the stump of a palm tree, incapable of renewed life or of coming again to birth. Can you say that of a layman?" It should be clear that lay life is not simply the absence of ordination, but the whole system of living as a householder where one is bound by and engaged in various worldly duties and obligations.
Note: the above is the Theravada position on arhatship.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 25th, 2019 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Syllabus
Content:
Astus wrote:
For a general overview:

https://books.google.com/books?id=fjU6AwAAQBAJ by Johannes Bronkhorst
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z3FuzkBnOxAC by Paul Williams
https://books.google.com/books?id=4p717ciuTFMC by Peter N. Gregory
https://books.google.com/books?id=cy980CH84mEC by John Powers


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 24th, 2019 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Dharmadhatu as the ultimate nature of everything is emptiness, only as the ultimate nature of sentient beings is there emptiness with awareness.

Wayfarer said:
So, empty of relative phenomena, but not empty of own-being, a facet of which is awareness (cit).

Astus wrote:
Only buddha-nature is called other-empty, but it does not have any 'cit', only 'jnana'.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 24th, 2019 at 7:01 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
That’s Nagarjuna’s view.

Astus wrote:
The enlightenment of the insentient is a concept you can find in East Asian Buddhism, but not in Tibetan Buddhism. However, please provide a source for this idea taught in Shentong that the insentient have wisdom. In the meantime:

The Expanse of the Basic Element of Being
When used in terms of ultimate reality, the Sanskrit words dharmadhātu or just dhātu are understood in two main ways, which are reflected by two different Tibetan words that translate the latter term. In its most general way, dhātu in dharmadhātu refers to the ultimate nature of all phenomena—being equivalent to emptiness—which is usually translated into Tibetan as dbyings (“expanse,” “space” or “vastness”). If dhātu signifies specifically the nature of the mind of sentient beings in the sense of buddha nature as the most basic element of their entire being, it is typically rendered as khams (lit. “element”). To be sure, these two meanings and their Tibetan renderings are not necessarily regarded or employed in a mutually exclusive way. Still, generally speaking, they represent the understanding of (dharma)dhātu in Madhyamaka texts and the texts on buddha nature, respectively. Obviously, in the Dharmadhātustava and its commentaries, the term is clearly used in the latter way.
(Brunnhölzl, In Praise of Dharmadhātu, p 63-64)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 24th, 2019 at 6:31 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
You’re hip to the fact that we’re not talking about a given individuals mind, right? Think Dharmadhatu.

Astus wrote:
Dharmadhatu as the ultimate nature of everything is emptiness, only as the ultimate nature of sentient beings is there emptiness with awareness. In other words, insentient entities are neither conscious nor capable of developing or possessing any level of wisdom. Furthermore, minds are not shared on any level.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 24th, 2019 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
Ultimately established Wisdom Mind.

Astus wrote:
Wisdom Mind is jnana, knowledge, and in particular the knowledge of suchness, the absence of apprehender and apprehended. It is not like God, because it is not an entity, nor is it the basis of entities, as the whole world emerges from ignorance, not knowledge, and continues to exist because of ignorance. Although beyond the impure mind there is the pure mind, saying that knowledge causes ignorance would be quite problematic.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 24th, 2019 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
I have refined my position to say that I think Shentong is panentheistic.

Astus wrote:
"Panentheism considers God and the world to be inter-related with the world being in God and God being in the world."
( https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panentheism/ )

What is God in Shentong?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 23rd, 2019 at 6:44 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
stevie said:
The failure here is in the initial question: there is no ultimate to be realized but all fabrications can dissolve.  And when fabrications dissolve everything and nothing dissolve. It's simply cessation of consciousness due to cessation of ignorance.

Astus wrote:
Non-fabrication does not mean either a sudden disappearance of everything, nor the total cessation of mental functions. Non-fabrication means not taking appearances to be substantial, to be personal, and that way not forming attachments to them. There are actually a lot more things and beings one has no emotional relationship with than things and beings with what one has. That way one can recognise a bit of how freedom from attachment looks like.

stevie said:
But the Rinpoche just keeps on fabricating. Why does he? I don't know, maybe because he takes some of his concepts to be true, e.g. his concept 'dharmata'.

Astus wrote:
Please review what buddhahood entails: https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/lam-rim/refuge/the-qualities-of-buddha-s-omniscient-mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 23rd, 2019 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Rick said:
I get that bodhisattvas agree to keep being reborn over and over and over to help nudge suffering begins towards liberation. But don't any enlightened beings get to retire and like ... melt into the universe in utter bliss when they shuffle off the mortal coil?

Astus wrote:
'Buddha activity is spontaneous because through their knowledge of variety, they do not need to think, “For whom am I doing this?” or “What way should I so this?” because they automatically know for whom and by what means they are going to act. Through the knowledge of how-it-is they understand that everything is nonexistent, unborn, and has no actual reality. So when they are acting, they do not hesitate wondering if everything is real. Knowing true emptiness, they know precisely how to act. In this way buddha activity is spontaneous and devoid of any thought and at the same time corresponds exactly to the needs of the beings they are helping.'
'Buddha activity has an unceasing character because from the very beginning, the Buddhas committed themselves to the goal of achieving Buddhahood for the sake of other beings. Secondly, the Buddhas saw the similarity between themselves and other beings and understood that if they managed to achieve Buddhahood, then everyone else could also become a Buddha. A third reason for this ceaselessness is that the number of beings is infinite and the Buddhas will never stop acting to help them until samsara is finished. So as long as there are beings in samsara, buddha activity will continue.'
(Thrangu Rinpoche, in The Uttara Tantra: A Treatise on Buddha Nature, p 166-167, 169)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 22nd, 2019 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Rick said:
How about after the death of a Buddhist enlightened being? Is it similar to a Vedantic paramukta?

Astus wrote:
No. Just consider all the functions and activities of a buddha.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 22nd, 2019 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Rick said:
Sometime, rarely, a living jivanmukta attains nirvikalpa samadhi, in which apparent objects are absent.

Astus wrote:
It is another good example of difference between the two systems. In Buddhism nirvikalpa-jnana (non-conceptual wisdom) does not eliminate phenomena.

'Question: When one directly realizes the ultimate, does that mean that conventional phenomena just become non-existent or go away?
Rinpoche: As for appearances of conventionalities or conventional appearances, for beginners indeed when in this state of meditative equipoise in which the mind is set evenly, fully and in a balanced manner upon the ultimate, such conventional appearances do disappear. However, when the dharmata has become fully and completely manifest, they do not. Finally, just while things are empty they appear and right when they appear, just when they appear, they are at that time empty. If it were not that way, then it would be the case that emptiness on the one hand and appearance on the other were contrary. Are those two contrary? No, they are not. It is not thus necessary that the dawning of one entails the disappearance of the other. Temporarily as one is moving along the path that is the state, but in the end no: they dawn together.'
(Thrangu Rinpoche, in Distinguishing Dharma and Dharmata, p 77)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 22nd, 2019 at 9:12 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Rick said:
For Advaitins enlightenment is knowing that the person = atman = brahman. Appearances don't end, don't even change in terms of their appearance.

Astus wrote:
That is the temporary situation of a jivanmukta who is still affected by prarabdha-karma, and after videhamukti (death) there is the total isolation in Brahman, i.e. kaivalya, where "not even an appearance of duality remains" (Vedantasara 6.226).


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 22nd, 2019 at 6:31 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
tobes said:
Practically speaking, I think the decisive difference pertains far more to conventional reality rather than ultimate.

Astus wrote:
Both sides of the two truths show significant differences, and the unity of the two is very much an exclusively Buddhist view. Buddha-nature is not simply some ultimate awareness, but it refers to the buddha qualities, the buddha bodies, and the buddha knowledges/wisdoms. For the Advaitins liberation means the end of all transitory appearances, similarly to the Samkhya teaching where Prakrti completely stops, and only the ultimate remains that practically does nothing apart from being absorbed in itself. So, the Buddhist view is that the ultimate is essentially empty and functionally active, while the Hindu one is that the ultimate is essentially substantial and functionally inactive.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 21st, 2019 at 5:20 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
I can't find my copy of KTGR's "Progressive Stages". I think it is on p.66, 2nd paragraph. If somebody else wants to post it be my guest.

Astus wrote:
'The perfectly existent nature truly exists because it exists in a non-conceptual way. In the Cittamatra the perfectly existent nature is said to be mere emptiness, in the sense of freedom  from  the conceptual process of distinguishing outer perceived objects as different in substance to the inner perceiving mind. In the Shen­tong it is said to be the non-conceptual Wisdom  Mind itself. It is indeed  empty of the conceptual process of distinguishing outer perceived objects as different in substance to the inner perceiving minds. It is also empty of the conceptualizing process that creates the appearance of a divided consciousness (vijnana) i.e. a stream of discrete moments of consciousness with perceiving and  perceived aspects. It is completely free from any conceptualizing process and knows in a way that is completely foreign to the conceptual mind. It is completely unimaginable in fact. That is why it can be said to truly exist.'
(Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness, Longchen Foundation, 1994, p 84)

See also what Vasubandhu says on the matter:

'The imagined nature is said
To be defined both as existent and as nonexistent,
For on the one hand it is grasped as existent,
While, on the other,
It is totally non-existent.

The other-dependent nature is said
To be defined both as existent and as nonexistent,
For, it exists as an illusion,
It does not exist, though, in the form in which it appears.

The absolutely accomplished nature is said
To be defined both as existent and as non-existent,
For, it exists as a state of non-duality,
It is also the non-existence of duality.'
(Trisvabhavanirdesa, v 11-13, tr Kochumuttom)

As it is summed up by Thrangu Rinpoche:

'The nature of the thoroughly established does not exist, but that very non-establishment, just as it is, is true.'
(Distinguishing the Middle from the Extremes, p 48)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 21st, 2019 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
the idea that both Shentong and Hinduism assert that the relative is completely unreal and the ultimate completely real.

Astus wrote:
What do completely, real, and unreal signify?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 21st, 2019 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
Shentong posits an ultimate that is completely real.

Astus wrote:
The various Abhidharmika systems posit real ultimates as well, and Yogacara (i.e. Shentong) has up to 8 unconditioned dharmas (see: Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 23). The more important question is what one calls the ultimate.

'What is taught in the Shentong tradition? The first major teaching of the Shentong is that all phenomena are mind. This view holds that all things are created by the mind. There is nothing that exists separate from the mind. Because all appearances are the mind, nothing has an existence of its own. Not only do objects have no true existence, but the perceiver of objects has no existence either. Since both subject and object have no true existence, both phenomena and the mind itself have no true existence either. When we accept this view, we see that the true nature of phenomena is emptiness. In summary, the teachings of the Shentong tradition hold that there is no reality to outer phenomena and no reality to the mind.' ...
'The Shentong tradition holds that there is the "element" (Skt. dhatu) or Buddha-nature (Skt. tathagata-garbha), also known as the dharmadhatu, and this element contains all the qualities of Buddhahood and its nature is emptiness. Buddha-nature is present within all beings at all times. It is realized at the attainment of enlightenment. But Buddha-nature is not the same as a permanent or eternal self (Skt. atman) posited by many Hindu religions. It is not the self, because the self is thought of as a real entity, whereas the Buddha-nature does not exist as an entity. Rather, Buddha-nature is devoid of its own nature. It is empty. Therefore, it is not the same as a self. By removing the obscurations and by realizing the Buddha-nature, living beings will achieve Buddhahood.'
(Two Views of Emptiness: Shentong and Rangtong by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, p 114-116)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 20th, 2019 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
You know I hate to say it but a "mere" similarity is a similarity.

Astus wrote:
Don't leave out where he states: 'Apart from that'


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 20th, 2019 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Buddha Nature in Zen
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
history and doctrines of East Asian Buddhism and Zen.

Astus wrote:
Start with http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html (full book version including some commentary: https://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_Beta_T1666_AwakeningofFaith_2005.pdf?file=1&type=node&id=483 ), as it is likely the most influential treatise on the topic in East Asian Buddhism.

'Question: If such is the meaning of the principle of Mahayana, how is it possible for men to conform themselves to and enter into it?
Answer: If they understand that, concerning all things, though they are spoken of, there is neither that which speaks, nor that which can be spoken of, and though they are thought of, there is neither that which thinks, nor that which can be thought of, then they are said to have conformed to it. And when they are freed from their thoughts, they are said to have entered into it'
(AFM)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 20th, 2019 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
There seem to be three different objections to my postings on Shentong here.

Astus wrote:
'Some of the assertions made by the Shentong masters seem to disagree with the Madhyamaka view and agree with the statements of non- Buddhists, particularly those of Vedanta. There have been many misunderstandings and refutations of this philosophy in Tibet. In order to clear up these misunderstandings, I will quote some points extracted from the teachings of Taranatha, which Jamgon Kongtrul quotes in the Treasury o f Knowledge. Taranatha says:
'Some scholars cite the Lankavatara Sutra, which says: If buddha nature has all the marks and signs, then isn’t it the same as the atman of the non-Buddhists? In reply, the Buddha said, “It is not the same because it is emptiness.”'"
(Ringu Tulku: The Ri-me Philosophy of Jamgon Kongtrul the Great, p 224)

'both Shentong and Rangtong are free of the fault of not being Madhyamaka. They accord in espousing a view free of all fabricated extremes. Not only that, but in most schools of Tibetan Buddhism there were masters who were lineage holders of both systems, and nobody looked upon them as having wrong views.'
(Ringu Tulku, p 232)

'Most people think that, in terms of its Madhyamaka alignment, the Kagyü school is a monolithic bloc of staunch supporters of Shentong-Madhyamaka (“other-empty Madhyamaka”). However, as should be clear by now, there are quite a number of masters in this school who do not follow what is known as Shentong. Even Milarepa sometimes adopts a typical Rangtong (“self-empty”) approach in his enlightened songs.1032 Still, the reader may be wondering why a book on Madhyamaka in the Kagyü lineage has thus far barely mentioned the term “Shentong,” much less presented the system it refers to. The answer is simple and may be shocking to some: There is no Shentong-Madhyamaka nor any need to make one up. The subdivision of Madhyamaka into “self empty” and “other-empty” is obsolete.
Before I am excommunicated from the Kagyü lineage for making this statement, let me say that I am just going by what the Eighth Karmapa and Pawo Rinpoche say in The Chariot of the Tagbo Siddhas and The Commentary on The Entrance to the Bodhisattva’s Way of Life. I also want to make it clear from the outset that the reason for such a statement is not at all to deprecate the contents or the value of the teachings that came to bear the name Shentong in Tibet. Rather, the reason is quite the contrary, since what is called Shentong is nothing other than the Yogacara (Yoga Practice) system of Maitreya, Asanga, and Vasubandhu, also called “the lineage of vast activity.” Just like Centrism, in its rich entirety, this system is a distinct, well-established, and—at least in India— unequivocally renowned system of presenting the teachings of the Buddha.'
(Karl Brunnhölzl: The Center of the Sunlit Sky, p 445)

'Question: I do not know if Rinpoche is familiar with Vedanta in the sense of Brahma’s being ultimate reality and everybody’s true nature being of the true nature of pure consciousness. Could he explain perhaps the difference between these two views?
Rinpoche: The difference between the Hindu view and this view is that the Hindu view asserts the existence of a self, atman. The Buddhist presentation of the buddha nature also talks about the genuine self, but the genuine self is a name that is given in Buddhism to the transcendence of the self posited by the Hindus and the nonself posited by the shravakas. That is the difference. And it is a big difference.'
(Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, in Shenpen Ösel, issue 14 (vol 6, no 1-2) p 139)

'There is a great difference between “true self” as taught in the Hindu traditions and as taught in the Mahayana system. In the first sense the term “true self” denotes a self that is eternal, unique, and independent. “True self” as taught in the Uttara Tantra Shastra is equivalent to the state of peace in terms of complete freedom from any conceptual elaboration. This state of peace has only been given the name of “true self.” There is a mere similarity in terms. The Mahayana system does not hold the view of an eternal, unique, and independent self. Between light and darkness, for instance, there is only a similarity inasmuch as they are both things (Skt. bhava, Tib. dngos po) fulfilling a function. Apart from that they contradict each other; there is not the slightest similarity.'
(Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, in Buddha Nature: The Mahayana Uttaratantra Shastra with Commentary, p 344-345)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 20th, 2019 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Buddha Nature in Zen
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
I know that in East Asian Buddhism, Buddha Nature is emphasized. Is there any special emphasis or perspective on this idea in Zen which differentiates it?

Astus wrote:
Do you ask if there is a special "Zen theory" of buddha-nature? If so, then the answer is no. First of all, because there is no such systematic doctrine that can be called "Zen". Secondly, because teachings that are conventionally labelled Zen simply rely on established Mahayana doctrine.

Apart from the above two points, a common and quite central concept in most Zen teachings is that the "mind is buddha", that is, that the nature of mind is identical to the nature of buddha. This forms the basis of the sudden awakening style, that one simply has to recognise one's own mind to be originally empty and thereby attain liberation from all defilements and ignorance.

So, if you really want to know the authentic Zen perspective, then just see right now that your current chain of thoughts is without any basis, that there is nothing to rely on anywhere, and there has never been anything that could be gained or lost.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 20th, 2019 at 4:30 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
dudette said:
Guys do not misunderstand me but these views on Shentong which you are discussing here really remind me of mystical christianity, mystical islam, hinduism and all other theistic religions.

Astus wrote:
Shentong, just like other systems using the tathagatagarbha doctrine (which is the majority of Mahayana actually), can be mistaken for substantialist ideas, just as other elements of Buddhism can be mistaken for annihilationist views. Both are instances of wrongly conceiving the Dharma and falling into extreme views.

dudette said:
How come this type of view managed to get into buddhism in the first place?

Astus wrote:
It did not. Eternalism is not accepted by any Buddhist school. The difficulty in understanding Buddha-mind teachings is the same as with understanding emptiness: one jumps to extreme conclusions without thoroughly comprehending the teachings.

dudette said:
I mean there has to be some logical explanation why Shentong view is taught as the fundementals for buddhism in DW.

Astus wrote:
First of all, this is a diverse forum, and Shentong does not have a special position. As for the popularity of Shentong among Kagyu and Nyingma teachers, there can be various explanations, but a short one is that it fits well with Vajrayana ideas.

Secondly, this is not so different from standard Theravada, and even less from the more philosophically lax teachings like the Thai Forest tradition. What is translated as "primordial wisdom" and "pristine awareness" is the Tibetan yeshes that is the equivalent of Sanskrit jñāna, what in Pali is ñāṇa, i.e. knowledge. It is the ultimate in a similar sense that in the Abhidhamma system there are lokuttara citta, and the phala citta have nibbana - the unconditioned - as their objects. So, just as the Abhidhamma can be misread as a dry theoretical and atomistic philosophy, so can various Mahayana teachings can be mistaken for eternalist ideologies. But as long as one remembers that the whole point of every Buddhist doctrine is to give a path to liberation through removing all attachments, one can avoid extreme views.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 19th, 2019 at 4:03 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The Buddha Nature teachings are very different from what is found in the Pali agamas

Astus wrote:
Not that much actually. The main twist is that the manifestation of the buddha qualities is not a product of merit accumulation but of wisdom, and that is in contrast to the earlier view of Mahayana as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 19th, 2019 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
Kongtrul obviously was making the point he wasn’t talking about a being’s mind—either sentient or enlightened.

Astus wrote:
The ground, primordial purity, is exactly the nature of mind. It's not an abstraction, or a separate entity.

smcj said:
Gompopa was writing before Dolpopa.

Astus wrote:
Gampopa's description is not different from Kongtrul's:
"Intrinsic awareness is devoid of substantiality and therefore indivisible from emptiness. Based on this indivisibility, the character comprises two pristine wisdoms: the pristine wisdom of the primordially pure nature, which is free of mentation, and the pristine wisdom of the spontaneous character, which is the original radiance glowing deep within."
(Myriad Worlds, p 207)

smcj said:
I am putting forward the idea of a transcendent or primordial (depending on how you want to talk about it) substratum.

Astus wrote:
Buddha-mind is not a substratum, only if it's incorrectly conceived as such, like grasping the wrong end of a snake.

"If you apprehend this basis of emptiness that is empty of both existence and nonexistence as something that is established by its essence separately [from everything else], no matter how you label it—such as an inconceivable self, Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Īśvara, or wisdom—except for the mere name, the meaning is the same."
(Mipham quoted by Brunnhölzl in 'In Praise of Dharmadhatu', p 105)

"Bhikkhus, you may well cling to that doctrine of self that would not arouse sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair in one who clings to it. But do you see any such doctrine of self, bhikkhus?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Good, bhikkhus. I too do not see any doctrine of self that would not arouse sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair in one who clings to it."
( https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/bodhi )

A recommended teaching on the topic is https://books.google.hu/books?id=azieVNVB6aYC by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 18th, 2019 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Brahman and Atman in Kagyu?
Content:
smcj said:
Since this is in the Kagyu forum it is appropriate to reference Kagyu authorities.

Astus wrote:
See chapter 20 of Jewel Ornament of Liberation. Primordial wisdom (or "pristine awareness" in Holmes' translation) is twofold in nature: ultimate and conventional. The ultimate is non-conceptual, free from elaboration, so it is very much pointless to try to categorise it as something. The conventional is how all appearances are seen as illusory.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 18th, 2019 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature
Content:
Astus wrote:
It should also be noted, that when it comes to actually dealing with defilements, one uses whatever works. There is no point in giving too much importance to the idea of being a practitioner of this or that method only, in other words, clinging to a special identity.

"Bhikkhus, there are taints that should be abandoned by seeing. There are taints that should be abandoned by restraining. There are taints that should be abandoned by using. There are taints that should be abandoned by enduring. There are taints that should be abandoned by avoiding. There are taints that should be abandoned by removing. There are taints that should be abandoned by developing."
( https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/bodhi )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 18th, 2019 at 6:33 PM
Title: Re: question on distingushing mind from it's nature
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Could be a Mahamudra question too:

Once a person begins to have some confidence in distinguishing mind from it's nature, is there any particular point in working with conventional thoughts and appearances in meditation anymore, rather than simply resting in the nature of mind? Is it now time to examine the relationship between the nature of mind and the minds contents?

Astus wrote:
After View and Meditation comes Conduct, may also be called Enhancement. It is integrating what one has learnt into life.

"although various authoritative scriptures and oral instructions have taught different types of conduct as means to enhance one's practice, the essential key points are as follows: Cut your worldly attachments completely and live companionless in secluded mountain retreats; that is the conduct of a wounded deer. Be free from fear or anxiety in the face of difficulties; that is the conduct of a lion sporting in the mountains. Be free from attachment or clinging to sense pleasures; that is the conduct of the wind in the sky. Do not become involved in the fetters of accepting or rejecting the eight worldly concerns; that is the conduct of a madman. Sustain simply and unrestrictedly the natural flow of your mind while unbound by the ties of dualistic fixation; that is the conduct of a spear stabbing in space."
(Lamp of Mahamudra, p 58)

How to work with various appearances:
http://www.purifymind.com/ObstaclesPath.htm

A shorter summary of the same:
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/khenpo-gangshar/removing-hindrances-sustaining-realization

A famous song of Milarepa:
http://unfetteredmind.org/milarepas-song-to-lady-paldarboom/
http://levekunst.com/milarepas-song-to-the-girl-paldarbum/
http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/A%20-%20Tibetan%20Buddhism/Authors/Thrangu%20Rinpoche/Commentaries%20on%20The%20Songs%20of%20Milarepa/The%20Story%20of%20Nyama%20Paldarbum,%20Song%20of%20Milarepa.htm


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 16th, 2019 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: another sutra classification beside tiantai
Content:
mansurhirbi87 said:
Do you know if there is another kind of sutra classification beside that one of Zhiyi or Tiantai school ?

Astus wrote:
The word for it is panjiao ( https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%95%99%E5%88%A4 ), i.e. doctrinal classification, and different schools and teachers have set up such schema. Apart from the http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/archive/nutshell/teach70.htm#t701, there are the http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/archive/nutshell/teach59.htm#t594, http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/archive/nutshell/teach61.htm#t614, http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/archive/nutshell/teach66.htm#t661, and others like what you find in Shingon by Kukai. There is a study on this topic by Bruno Petzold: https://books.google.hu/books?id=iZH29oiIuIkC; and another by Chanju Mun: https://books.google.hu/books/about/The_History_of_Doctrinal_Classification.html?id=dpPYtAEACAAJ.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 12th, 2019 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Infinite Eons and Enlightenment
Content:
Aemilius said:
Diamond Sutra Ch. 27...Similarly in The Heart Sutra

Astus wrote:
Things are already empty, so there is nothing to be free from, nor anyone to be liberated. However, unless emptiness is seen, one is stuck in delusion and samsara. That's why there are the teachings, like the Diamond and the Heart Sutra, to show the true nature of the world as unestablished and unobtainable. This goes back to the very basics of Buddhism: although there has never been a self, without recognising that there is no escape from suffering.

"To attain is not to attain; there is nothing to attain or to lose - this is called the attainment of the Realization of the Nonarising of Dharmas."
(How to Kill with the Sword of Wisdom, in A Treasury of Mahayana Sutras, p 62)

The Buddha asked Mañjuśrī, “When a Bodhisattva sits in a bodhimaṇḍa, does he attain anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi?”
Mañjuśrī replied, “When a Bodhisattva sits in a bodhimaṇḍa, he does not attain anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi. Why not? Because the appearance of bodhi is true suchness. Not finding a speck of dharma to capture is called anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi. Because bodhi has no appearance, who can sit and who can rise? For this reason, I see neither a Bodhisattva sitting in a bodhimaṇḍa nor anyone realizing anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi.”
...
"Those who know that in bodhi there is no attainment of Buddhahood will quickly attain anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi."
( http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra13.html )

"If you understand this doctrine, you should also understand that there is nothing whatsoever to be attained. Knowing that there is nothing to be gained or attained is the realization of the Dharmakaya of Buddhadharma. If one harbors any thought whatsoever of gaining or attaining, he holds the wrong view and, being a person of overweening pride, is labeled heterodox."
( https://ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/treatise-entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment )

"The realization that “nothing is attained” breaks through phenomenal and principle hindrances, and the understanding that the Dharma cannot be fully explained in words breaks through the hindrance of language. In this way, “non-attainment” is the only true attainment, and is what allows us to return to our intrinsic nature, which is inherently pure."
( http://hsingyun.org/cultivation-without-attainment/ )

"Non-wisdom is the true wisdom, non-attainment is the true attainment."
( https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartv11.htm )

"'No attainment' is true attainment. So I already told you about the Heart Sutra. It says, 'There is no attainment, with nothing to attain.' You must attain 'no attainment.'"
(Wanting Enlightenment is a Big Mistake: Teachings of Zen Master Seung Sahn, p 2)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 12th, 2019 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Beginner in Mahamudra
Content:
Simon E. said:
actual teachers of Vajrayana Dharma rather than scholars of an eclectic bent.

Astus wrote:
Could you be more specific there? Do you mean you hold Sakya Pandita's view as the definitive, and others' as "eclectic"?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 11th, 2019 at 6:08 PM
Title: Re: Beginner in Mahamudra
Content:
Simon E. said:
What said was that one can't actually practice Mahamudra without wangs.

Astus wrote:
Mahamudra does not require empowerment, only within the context of deity yoga, also called tantric Mahamudra and the path of means. But the Mahamudra that is also called sutra Mahamudra and the path of liberation, the speciality of the Dagpo Kagyu, has no such prerequisite.

"if one follows venerable Gampopa’s system in elucidating Mahamudra alone, it is not necessary to bestow the empowerment upon devotees"
(Mahamudra: the Moonlight, p 124)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 9th, 2019 at 6:03 PM
Title: Re: Term for 'Mind' in Awakening of Faith
Content:
Simon E. said:
It seems to posit an agreed definition of 'mind' shared by all readers a priori.

Astus wrote:
What mind is is one of the main topics of the treatise.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 9th, 2019 at 4:46 PM
Title: Re: Term for 'Mind' in Awakening of Faith
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The principle is ‘‘the Mind of the sentient being.” This Mind includes in itself all states of being of the phenomenal world and the transcendental world. On the basis of this Mind, the meanings of the Mahayana may be unfolded. Why? Because the absolute aspect of this Mind represents the essence (svabhåva) of the Mahayana; and the phenomenal aspect of this Mind indicates the essence, attributes (laksana) and influences (kriyå) of the Mahayana itself.
I am interested in what character or word that has been translated as "Mind" in this passage.

Astus wrote:
心

http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T32n1666_001#0575c20, c21-25:
所言法者，謂眾生心，是心則攝一切世間法、出世間法。依於此心顯示摩訶衍義。何以故？是心真如相，即示摩訶衍體故；是心生滅因緣相，能示摩訶衍自體相用故。

"The word "principle" means the mind of sentient beings. This mind embraces all dharmas in the mundane and supramundane worlds. On the basis of this mind the meaning of Mahayana is revealed. Why? Because the suchness aspect of this mind shows the essence of Mahayana, (while) the causal and conditional aspect of the arising and ceasing of this mind can show the attributes and operation of Mahayana's essence itself."
(tr Sung-Bae Park, in Wonhyo's Commentaries on the "Awakening of Faith in Mahayana.", PhD dissertation, 1979, p 166)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 7th, 2019 at 8:03 PM
Title: Re: Tobacco in Buddhism
Content:
haha said:
basis in sutra?

Astus wrote:
Tobacco was brought to India in the 17th century (no Buddhism in India by then), so if the story is about tobacco, it is quite modern.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, March 7th, 2019 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Infinite Eons and Enlightenment
Content:
Aemilius said:
It does refute liberation (as a possession of a self or a being) in the MMK, and so does the Diamond Sutra. 24.  Totally pacifying all referents and totally pacifying fixations is peace.  The Buddha nowhere taught any dharma to anyone.

Astus wrote:
No Buddhist school assumes a self, so nobody said that liberation was a possession of anyone, hence nothing new here. Madhyamaka has the explicit goal of bringing beings to peace (i.e. nirvana), just look at the homage/dedication right at the beginning of MMK that has the same term used as in 25.24: "prapañcopaśama", the stilling/quieting/stopping (upaśama) of hypostatization/fabrication/proliferation (prapañca). See 18.5 (tr Siderits) on how liberation and fabrication relate to each other:

karmakleśakṣayān mokṣaḥ karmakleśā vikalpataḥ |
te prapañcāt prapañcas tu śūnyatāyāṃ nirudhyate ||
Liberation is attained through the destruction of actions and defilements; actions and defilements arise because of falsifying conceptualizations;
those arise from hypostatization; but hypostatization is extinguished in emptiness.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 6th, 2019 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: Infinite Eons and Enlightenment
Content:
Aemilius said:
I think this is refuted by Madhyamaka and the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras. Samsara has no reality, there is no real samsara. According to Chandrakirti, for example,  Nirvana is that nothing arises or ceases (with an essence or essentially).

Astus wrote:
Madhyamaka is a Buddhist school, so it cannot and does not refute liberation. Nirvana is defined as unborn and undying by the Abhidharmikas, and it is contrasted with samsara where birth and death happens. What you find in Madhyamaka is that the nature of samsara is identical to nirvana, because both are empty, so samsara is a mistaken perception. This is not the same as denying the presence and efficiency of ignorance whence samsara originates. After all, the very purpose of Madhyamaka is to eliminate ignorance and thus liberate beings.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 4th, 2019 at 8:14 PM
Title: Re: Consciousness - is it really ever ‘switched-off’
Content:
Matman said:
wired-up to a brainwave monitor

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is understood to be non-material in Buddhism.

Matman said:
Is it the view, that Pure Awareness (Total Presence) is a facet of Conciousness, or do you see it as something else?

Astus wrote:
The other way around, ordinary consciousness is the manifestation of the originally pure mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 4th, 2019 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: Is there a Buddhist Word for this?
Content:
Matman said:
He calls it the Pain-Body, but it seems somewhat different to what I understand the Buddhist Term ‘dukkha’ to mean.

Astus wrote:
Suffering (duhkha) is the result of afflictions ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleshas_%28Buddhism%29 ), and afflictions are what influence the mind in a harmful way as a consequence of past actions (karma).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 4th, 2019 at 4:05 PM
Title: Re: Consciousness - is it really ever ‘switched-off’
Content:
Sherab said:
I never know what momentary really means.

Astus wrote:
That arising and cessation happens in the same moment.

Sherab said:
When a consciousness cease, does it cease into utter nothingness?

Astus wrote:
One cannot even step into the same river twice, so why would mind states persist?

Sherab said:
If it does, how come out of utter nothingness a new moment of consciousness can arise?

Astus wrote:
Various Abhidharma and Yogacara treatises have answers for that, if you really want to know, where they discuss causality. Apart from that, you can go with Madhyamaka (and Yogacara) where one recognises that ultimately it's all just a mirage, an illusion. It depends on how deep you want to go.

Sherab said:
If when a consciousness cease, it does not cease into utter nothingness, then what does it cease into?

Astus wrote:
Cessation does not mean going from one place to another. Cessation means the end of functioning, the end of existing, because the supporting conditions have changed and no longer support it.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 3rd, 2019 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Consciousness - is it really ever ‘switched-off’
Content:
Grigoris said:
The Abhidhammattha Sangaha of Ācariya Anuruddha:

Astus wrote:
That is a text from the 11th-12th century. You can find the word bhavanga used in the Patthana, translated as life-continuum by U Narada, but not specifically defined. It is in Buddhaghosa's works (5th c.) where you can find the first definitions (e.g. Vism 14.114; Atth 270). In any case, just as in the case of the alayavijnana, at parinirvana there is no more continuity of consciousness.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 3rd, 2019 at 6:27 PM
Title: Re: Consciousness - is it really ever ‘switched-off’
Content:
Grigoris said:
In the Abhidhamma there is the bhavanga citta which is like a baseline level of consciousness.

Astus wrote:
Bhavanga-citta is a Theravada doctrine, but it's not taught in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, only in later commentaries and treatises. Other schools have not developed such a concept, that's how introduction of the alayavijnana was not a straightforward matter for the Yogacarins.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 3rd, 2019 at 6:22 PM
Title: Re: Consciousness - is it really ever ‘switched-off’
Content:
Matman said:
Are we ever really in a mental state where consciousness is totally absent?

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is momentary, mental states rapidly occur and cease. To conceive the mind as continuous is one of the common basis of believing in an enduring existence.

Matman said:
This seems to indicate that consciousness is ‘always’ present, but gets turned-down / dampened at times, e.g. when we sleep.

Astus wrote:
That is an assumption, a projection of a substance beyond appearances.

Matman said:
Has this fact any direct relevance to the way Mahayana Buddhists understand ‘consciousness’?

Astus wrote:
When there is a sound, there is ear-consciousness. When there is no sound, there can be no awareness of sound either.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 3rd, 2019 at 5:46 PM
Title: Re: Is relative truth nullified in higher stages of Chan / Zen?
Content:
well wisher said:
Is relative truth nullified in higher stages of Chan / Zen?

Astus wrote:
Zen deals with the mind, and the mind is often described with two concepts: essence and function. In essence the mind is empty and pure. In function it is whatever occurs, all phenomena. Essence and function are not two different things, not two separate minds, but simply one common way to describe the mind. There is no essence without function, and there is no function without essence. But one can make the mistake of grasping only one of them, or dividing them.

Delusion is being fooled by function, where one is attached to one's thoughts, feelings, and sensory impressions.
Beginning practitioners are often fooled by essence, where they want only peace, motionlessness, transcendence, the absolute.
After some experience one recognises that dealing with function is inevitable, so there is a process of harmonisation, of balancing, of integration of the two sides.
Further on one can arrive at the point where essence and function are inseparable, where non-thought is in the midst of thought, and it becomes possible to cultivate genuine Zen.
The final stage is simply that there is no more cultivation done, no more effort needed, as essence has never been apart from function, nor function from the essence.

So, is the relative truth, the function, nullified? Yes and no. Yes, because there is no more mistake about what the function is. No, because the relative does not go anywhere.

well wisher said:
if you consider relative truths, where one person might  consider some virtues are good whiles are might think its bad.

Astus wrote:
Buddhism - regardless of school - does not teach moral relativism. Karma is unavoidable.

well wisher said:
So does "absolute truth" even exist? If so, what is it ? Is it the total cessation of all unwanted conditioning and sufferings in one's own mind and existence, replace with total benevolence and harmonious calmness and pure freedom? Or what else?

Astus wrote:
The absolute truth is that there is ultimately no truth to hold on to, i.e. all concepts are fleeting and baseless. Liberation comes from seeing that the universe (nor the multiverse) has nothing reliable, nothing to attach to.

well wisher said:
Maybe some higher stages cannot be expressed by words and labels, but can only be experienced in one's own actual reality?

Astus wrote:
Dreaming of an unseen higher realm is aiming for the absolute. A good start, but not a place to get stuck at.

well wisher said:
So in the end, I guess 5 precepts are only a rough general guideline to go by, but perhaps should NOT be pursued to the point of extreme degree nor extreme obsession;

Astus wrote:
The five precepts are for lay people as a guidance. It is a sort of minimal requirement. Compare that to the 250 precepts of monks, the 10 major and 48 minor precepts for bodhisattvas, and the other innumerable vows.

well wisher said:
And that the CESSATION OF SUFFERING in the part of the 4 noble truths is actually a greater goal to aim for?

Astus wrote:
The precepts are means to an end, and that end can be different things, from this worldly benefits up to complete enlightenment.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 2nd, 2019 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Kwan Um School of Zen
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
standard Jogye teachings

Astus wrote:
I have not seen such a thing. Jogye is an institution, not a doctrine.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 2nd, 2019 at 4:20 PM
Title: Re: Infinite Eons and Enlightenment
Content:
LoveFromColorado said:
This would mean that we have experienced every single state of awareness, from the lowest hell to the highest heaven as well as enlightenment.

Astus wrote:
Enlightenment is freedom from the 6 realms, the end of birth and death. So beings may go round and round without ever attaining liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 26th, 2019 at 6:54 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Sherab said:
I never said that the consciousness beyond the all is unchanging/permanent, or changing/impermanent.  This is because whatever is beyond the all is necessary beyond the range of words and concepts.  Word and concepts arise from and within the all.

Astus wrote:
If it is beyond the six sensory areas, that means it cannot have the attributes of those, and that includes conceivability, perceptibility, dependency, and impermanence. More importantly, it is like the finest lady of the land who's never been seen.

“Suppose, Poṭṭhapāda, a man were to say: ‘Whoever the finest lady in the land is, it is her that I want, her that I desire!’ They’d say to him: ‘Mister, that finest lady in the land who you desire—do you know whether she’s an aristocrat, a brahmin, a merchant, or a worker?’ Asked this, he’d say, ‘No.’ They’d say to him: ‘Mister, that finest lady in the land who you desire—do you know her name or clan? Whether she’s tall or short or medium? Whether her skin is black, brown, or tawny? What village, town, or city she comes from?’ Asked this, he’d say, ‘No.’ They’d say to him: ‘Mister, do you desire someone who you’ve never even known or seen?’ Asked this, he’d say, ‘Yes.’
What do you think, Poṭṭhapāda? This being so, doesn’t that man’s statement turn out to have no demonstrable basis?” “Clearly that’s the case, sir.”
( https://suttacentral.net/dn9/en/sujato )

Sherab said:
The consciousness beyond the all can be said to be unestablished because it is not found or established by a dualistic mind, i.e a mind that grasps at a self and other, since the all necessarily involves subject-object differentiation and what is beyond the all is beyond subject-object differentiation.

Astus wrote:
When there is nothing to perceive, there is no perceiver either. As Vasubandhu wrote (Trimsika v 28, tr Kochumuttom, p 259):

"One does abide in the realization
Of mere [representation of] consciousness
When one does not perceive also a supporting consciousness,
For, the graspable objects being absent,
There cannot either be the grasping of that"


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 26th, 2019 at 5:08 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Sherab said:
If the above does not show that there is a consciousness beyond the all, then what is this consciousness that has NOT been experienced through the allness of the all?

Astus wrote:
Here's Piya Tan's take on it:

"In short, this stanza,“[t]he consciousness without attribute, without end, radiant all around” refers not to nirvana (as suggested by the Commentaries) but to the nature of the arhat’s mind, that is, awakened consciousness, as commonly understood in the Suttas, that is, as one unfathomable: “of the one who is gone to his setting [one who has gone out], there is measuring” (atthaṁ gatassa na pamaṇam atthi) (Sn1076)."
( http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/11.7-Brahma-Nimantanika-S-m49-piya.pdf, p 95)

Sherab said:
To me, it is clear from the above that the consciousness mentioned is beyond the range of the all, and only a Buddha is qualified to make such a claim.  No other being can make such a claim.

Astus wrote:
This is a question of hermeneutics, how one approaches the scriptures and makes interpretations. In this case, the idea of a special consciousness beyond consciousness is not supported by the Pali Canon in general, nor by the later Theravada tradition, and it is only a few poetic lines that one can single out and fabricate a new explanation.

An unestablished consciousness is in line with the other teachings found in the scriptures, therefore it is a more defensible angle to take than trying to prove an unprovable concept of unchanging awareness. Unestablished consciousness is simply where there is no more grasping at the aggregates, so it is what one finds in the four noble truths and all over the Canon. See the https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than.html for instance.

Furthermore, why bother with the sravaka teachings when it is so much easier to find ideas that resemble an ultimate self in Mahayana? Like the "four virtues" (四德) in the Nirvana Sutra: permanence, happiness, self, purity (常樂我淨).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 25th, 2019 at 5:41 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me.

Astus wrote:
For the Buddhist context of how the operation of the senses is conceived see e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatana on Wikipedia
https://web.archive.org/web/20180901114929/https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/lam-rim/the-five-aggregates/the-5-aggregates-12-cognitive-stimulators-18-sources by Dr. Alexander Berzin
https://abhidharmakosa.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/chapter-1-dhatu.pdf - a summary from the Abhidharmakosabhasyam

Wayfarer said:
Through clairvoyance, you're not seeing by virtue of light that is captured by the retina and images received by sensory means. It is super-sensory, by definition.

Astus wrote:
Yes, but not in the context of the six sensory areas.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 25th, 2019 at 6:38 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The latter reference links to the same source that Astus refers to above.

Astus wrote:
Thanissaro's explanation is not found in Mahasi Sayadaw's https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html that you linked. Mahasi provides a short commentary on the matter of "viññanam anidassanam" in Manual of Insight, p 464-466. Bhikkhu Sujato discusses the idea in his post: https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/vinna%E1%B9%87a-is-not-nibbana-really-it-just-isn%E2%80%99t/


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 25th, 2019 at 6:25 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So the psychic abilities  and "knowledge of extinction of the contaminants" would be generally categorised as 'extra-sensory perception', would they not?

Astus wrote:
In ordinary Western parlance, yes. In Buddhism, no. For instance, clairvoyance, or divine eye, is still visual perception, just like common human seeing, but on a different level. But literal 'extra-sensory perception', experiencing something beyond the six senses, is impossible.

"The supernormal knowledges of supernormal power, divine hearing, and divine sight, make up the first application of mindfulness, that is, the body as an application of mindfulness, for they have rupa, color and shape, for their object. The supernormal knowledge of supernormal power has four external ayatanas, with the exception of sound, for its sphere. And divine hearing and divine sight have both sound and rupa for their domain."
(AKB 7.44d, vol 4, p 1162)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 24th, 2019 at 6:39 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I’ll go with the one you quoted the definition from the Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism.

Astus wrote:
That dictionary, like the others, refer to the six abhijnas, five of which are aptly called psychic powers (magical powers, clairvoyance, clairaudience, remembering past lives, telepathy), while the sixth is the "extinction of the contaminants (āsravakṣaya, P. āsavakkhāya)" that is unique to liberated beings.

Wayfarer said:
Jñāna is not simply the product of the senses, otherwise animals and the unenlightened would possess it.

Astus wrote:
Don't forget the sixth sense: mind. The mere operation of the senses does not define their quality, e.g. eagles have better sight than moles. There are vast differences even among humans with regard to their mental abilities and their proclivities.
As for what jnana may stand for, the https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html is one version, while the four wisdoms (catvāri jñānāni, 四智) taught in Yogacara is a speciality of buddhahood. There is also knowing and seeing according to reality (yathābhūtañānadassana) that means a complete understanding of the four noble truths and the various dharmas (four elements, five aggregates, six senses, etc.) - see https://store.pariyatti.org/Excursions-into-the-Thought-World-of-the-P257li-Discourses--PDF-eBook_p_4673.html, ch 16. There are also the four reality wisdoms (catvāri yathā-bhūta-parijñānāni, 四如實智) in Yogacara, that means the comprehension after investigation that "names, objects, essences, and differences" are mentally fabricated (see: Mahayanasamgraha 3.7; e.g. BDK ed, p 63-64).
So, the point is, knowledge/wisdom should be specified in terms of what is known/understood.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 24th, 2019 at 7:40 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The definition of abhijna is super-knowledge.  'Abhi' is 'higher' - the question is, 'higher' along what axis? 'Higher' compared to what? Why is it that 'abhijna' cannot be known to the empirical sciences?

Astus wrote:
What do you base that definition on?

Wayfarer said:
Isn't it because empiricism restricts knowledge to only what can be validated by sense-experience? So there's a higher dimension which empiricism can't comprehend, by definition. That is 'higher knowledge'.

Astus wrote:
There are six senses. If something is beyond them, it'd take a seventh sense to perceive it. Is there a seventh sense in your interpretation?

Wayfarer said:
I found this passage the other day said to be from the Mahayana Angulimala Sutra:

Astus wrote:
The aggregates are empty, but that doesn't mean there are no aggregates, rather that they're empty of substance. Your quote says nothing new, since the qualities of noble beings are well known.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 24th, 2019 at 7:17 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
We are not realising the true nature.

Astus wrote:
It's the true nature of the six sensory areas and five aggregates that is to be realised, and not something apart from them. That's one of the main points of the oft recited Heart Sutra, don't you agree?

Wayfarer said:
What is the translation of 'abhijna'?

Astus wrote:
The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism: superknowledge, "specifically referring to a set of supranormal powers that are by-products of meditation"
PTS Pali-English Dictionary: special knowledge, psychic powers
Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines: higher powers, supernormal knowledges
FaXiang - A Buddhist Practitioner’s Encyclopedia: 神通 (shén tōng) - supernatural power


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 24th, 2019 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So my interpretation of the Brahmajala is that it is a critique of any and all kinds of speculative views (all of which are ultimately based on self either existing or not existing) so as to ‘go beyond’. Its subject is the attaining of genuine jñāna, not the speculative views of philosophers and others.

Astus wrote:
Since there is nothing that can be known beyond the six senses, assuming something beyond them is par excellence speculation. See also the https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=484351#p484351.

"All you need do is not follow discriminations, because none of the three causes arises when the three conditions of the three continuities of the world, living beings, and karmic retribution are cut off. Then the madness of the Yajnadatta in your mind will cease of itself, and just that ceasing is Bodhi."
( http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama/shurangama15.asp, 4.109-110)

It's often taught that this mind is buddha, and there is no buddha outside mind. It's not another mind one should look for, but only look into this common mind filled with emotions and ideas, and see that it's already unestablished and ungraspable as it is.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 23rd, 2019 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
IMO like I said earlier this is a nice harmonization, but there is a reason why you don't find "these views" in Ven Sujāto's rendering. This is because there is no term in the Pāli that corresponds to the word "views". This is a commentarial addition.

Astus wrote:
There is also the Walshe translation:

"When, monks, a monk understands as they really are the arising and passing away of the six bases of contact, their attraction and peril, and the deliverance from them, he knows that which goes beyond all these views."

The Chinese version should not be forgotten either.

梵動經 (T1n1, vol 14, p94a3):

若比丘於六觸集、滅、味、過、出要，如實而知，則為最勝，出彼諸見。

Ichimura (Lengthy Discourses, BDK ed, vol 3, p 31):

"If a bhikṣu acquires insight into the causal concatenation of the six senses and contact with their objects (i.e., sensation, its cessation, its gratification, its danger, and the method of its transcendence), universally as they really are, this would be his highest achievement, [precisely] because this insight goes beyond the theories contained within the sixty-two variations."

Jianhua (A Critical Translation of Fan Dong Jing, p 88):

"When, (bhiksus), a bhiksu understands as they really are the origin and passing away of the six bases of contact, their satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and escape from them, then he understands what transcends all these views."

Back to Sujato's translation from the Pali:

"When a mendicant truly understands the six fields of contacts’ origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape, they understand what lies beyond all these things."

"these things" are clearly the 62 views, because that's what has been discussed, those are what emerge out of clinging to the six fields. The proposition that there is something beyond them would mean a 7th field, and a basis of attachment, something one would rightly call a self. However, as it's been repeated in the sutta again and again (Sujato translation):

"He understands this, and what goes beyond this. Yet since he does not misapprehend that understanding, he has realized extinguishment within himself. Having truly understood the origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape from feelings, the Realized One is freed through not grasping."

Not grasping is what goes beyond grasping, that's how the round of suffering ends.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 23rd, 2019 at 5:57 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Astus wrote:
This concept of there being two minds is an attempt at establishing a self independent of the aggregates, one of the four possible ways people may imagine their true self. It's been refuted from the beginning under the topic of satkaya-drsti, and later in Mahayana as a matter of pudgala-nairatmya.

"Having determined that the five aggregates are not solid entities that make up the self, we might conclude that there is, however, a solid self or “me” that is distinct from these ever-changing five aggregates. But our experience is that all our perceptions and all our conceptualizations arise from these five perceptual aggregates, so we would have to propose a self that is a single uncompounded entity that is independent of our perceptual experience and therefore would be beyond thought. But all our experience of the world arises from these aggregates. A self, or a soul, beyond the compounded aggregates would necessarily have to be an existent entity that is uncompounded, non-experiential, and inconceivable. But if there were such a self that was solid and real, how would happiness and suffering in the ordinary world initially arise? A self beyond the aggregates would not experience changing events of the aggregates and, like uncompounded space, would be beyond contact, benefit, and harm. A self separate from the aggregates would never be able to function in the ordinary world where things arise and fall. We would never have experienced any of the compounded events that we experience. Thus, there is no self beyond the aggregates."
(Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche: The Open Door to Emptiness, ch 2)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 22nd, 2019 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Psychology Science -v- Mindfulness / Awareness 'Methods'
Content:
Matman said:
The Science of Psychology seems to suggest that, spending time ‘Thinking / Reasoning’ over one’s emotional problems (including deep reflection on, and discussion of, them) - is a vital part of learning to ‘come to terms’ with, accept  - and resolve - our issues.

Astus wrote:
There are teachings and methods in Buddhism that are used in a similar way, to understand and counteract harmful thoughts and feelings.

Matman said:
Is this ‘at odds’ with the Zen Buddhist Zen 'Awareness Method', where the more favoured approach seems to be, simply ‘become aware of / and watch’ difficult thoughts and feelings, but do not ‘engage’ or try to ‘interact’ with them?

Astus wrote:
Zen is based on the view that the mind is originally pure, while all thoughts, feelings, and impressions are unestablished phenomena. The way of Zen is not about merely watching but about actualising the original mind that is naturally unafflicted and free.

Matman said:
Might the Buddhist ‘simple awareness’ approach, result in 'difficult' thoughts, feelings, emotions being filed-away unresolved (out of mind) once an Awareness Session ends (due to a need to 'move on' to practical necessities like chores etc). In which case, do those 'difficult' thoughts, feelings, emotions' tend 'later' to return, again and again because they have not been 'engaged' with?

Astus wrote:
That could be the case if one were to take passive observation as the proper method, however, it is not. Furthermore, Zen is not restricted to those short periods on a cushion.

Matman said:
Is it, perhaps, essential to use 'both' the Psychologist and Buddhist Methods, but at different times?

Astus wrote:
Psychology is a different system than Buddhism, so they should be handled separately. But it's also important to recognise that Buddhism is not just Zen, and Zen is not about maintaining an artificial mental state of simple awareness.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 20th, 2019 at 5:58 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Grigoris said:
All I am saying is that in Mahamudra this idea that consciousness cannot observe consciousness seems to be debunked.

Astus wrote:
"If you operate under the assumption that the self-awareness spoken of in mahamudra, the self-awareness spoken of in valid cognition, and the self-awareness refuted in Madhyamaka are all the same, then you will definitely perceive a contradiction. However, the term self-awareness is used differently in each of these three contexts."
(Pointing Out the Dharmakaya, p 103)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 20th, 2019 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Compendium of the Mahayana: Asanga's Mahayanasamgraha and Its Indian and Tibetan Commentaries By: Asanga and Karl Br
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
I contest the idea that Prasangika is a Gelug idea.

Astus wrote:
The distinction between Prasangika and Svatantrika is a Tibetan innovation that was emphasised by Tsongkhapa and spread by the Gelugpas. But let me know if you find an Indian source for it.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Prasangika view when he delivered the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra at Rajagriha. This view was clarified and expounded by Nagarjuna and his spiritual sons.

Astus wrote:
Did they call it Prasangika Madhyamaka?

Tsongkhapafan said:
I don't expect everyone to agree with Tsongkhapa but I would expect them to agree with Buddha Shakyamuni, Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti.

Astus wrote:
Why Candrakirti? He was a marginal teacher until Tsongkhapa.

Tsongkhapafan said:
You seem very dismissive of Chandrakirti's refutation - why?

Astus wrote:
Not that I don't like what he wrote, but I don't think he is a reliable source to represent Yogacara, hence he did not refute what Yogacarins taught.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Sure, we can study anything, but it's the value of our study that matters. Life is short.

Astus wrote:
How can you differentiate between valuable and worthless without studying extensively?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 20th, 2019 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Grigoris said:
I dunno, in Mahamudra we spend half our time using our mind to observe our mind...

Astus wrote:
The common self-awareness is not necessarily the same as the theory that there is an unchanging unitary consciousness aware of itself.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 20th, 2019 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Rick said:
Similarly the mind can see the mind, if a part of the mind separates from and observes the rest.

Astus wrote:
In that case there are at least 2 minds, what contradicts the idea that the mind is what perceives, and also that the mind is unitary.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 19th, 2019 at 6:56 PM
Title: Re: Compendium of the Mahayana: Asanga's Mahayanasamgraha and Its Indian and Tibetan Commentaries By: Asanga and Karl Br
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
Why put so much time and energy into studying the view of the Chittamatrin school which is just an intermediate view rather than studying the Madhyamika Prasangika school which is Buddha’s ultimate intention and the views that lead to liberation and enlightenment?

Astus wrote:
It is an intermediate view for those who subscribe to a specific Madhyamaka interpretation. Prasangika is a Gelug idea, so it is quite unrealistic to expect everyone to agree with Tsongkhapa. As for the reason of studying Yogacara, it is the most comprehensive and extensive Indian Mahayana doctrine that there has ever been, so you cannot really go wrong with it. Furthermore, even Tsongkhapa studied Yogacara teachings, so where is the issue here?

Tsongkhapafan said:
Chandrakirti extensively refutes the Chittamatrin view in Guide to the Middle Way

Astus wrote:
Kicking down straw men is not that difficult.

Tsongkhapafan said:
therefore isn’t it better to study Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Aryadeva and Shantideva and try to realise the meaning of these teachings?

Astus wrote:
Studying Madhyamaka does not mean one cannot study other things as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 19th, 2019 at 4:32 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Sherab said:
Do you interpret the highlighted portion that there is no consciousness?

Astus wrote:
It says that consciousness has no essence. In other words, it is empty. Just like everything else.

Sherab said:
If your answer is no, there is still a consciousness, then you would have contradicted what you said in your reply to me here: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=30573&start=100#p483621

Astus wrote:
Just because nirvana is not a type of consciousness, it doesn't mean there is no consciousness at all.

Sherab said:
why is there no consciousness in nirvana?

Astus wrote:
Nirvana is neither a place nor a being, but the cessation of defilements. When one stops feeling thirsty, that phenomenon of disappearance is not itself a consciousness, is it? Or you can think of all sorts of cessations, like clouds vanishing, etc.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 19th, 2019 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Very happy to see this fundamental principle stated in such an unequivocal manner.

Astus wrote:
"As a sword cannot cut itself, or as a finger cannot touch its own tip, Mind cannot see itself."
(Lankavatara Sutra, Sagathakam, v 568, tr Suzuki)

"The Guardian of the World himself has said
That mind cannot be seen by mind.
In just the same way, he has said,
The sword’s edge cannot cut the sword."
(Bodhicaryavatara 9.17-18, tr Padmakara)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 19th, 2019 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
LordByronX said:
Why would a permanent mind (Consciousness) and Emptiness be excluding each other? I find these two deepest realizations of Buddhism and Vedanta quite compatible. In a certain paradoxical way maybe, but why would the "final ground" not be paradoxical in a way that it is both this and that.

Astus wrote:
A permanent mind means an unchanging observer apart from everything else, and that is not only unreasonable from a Buddhist doctrinal point of view, but also impractical from an experiential perspective.

From the logical side a permanent mind cannot interact with appearances, hence must be either completely unaware or stuck in a fixed state of being conscious always of the same thing.

From the practical side, one has to completely disassociate oneself from all impressions and focus solely on remaining the watcher, while in Buddhism one lets go of everything completely, even being the one who is aware, and simultaneously not excluding or avoiding any experience.

Dakpo Tashi Namgyal writes (Mahamudra: The Moonlight, p 195-196):

"some untutored [meditators], having experienced the sensation of the even state of tranquility – the meditation known as “mind watching the mind” – asserted that they had achieved insight into the mind. ...
The term “seeing the mind” is a simple designation for understanding the mind’s unreality, which is detached from the beginning from all modes of existence or nonexistence. The nature of mind is such that there is nothing – not even the infinitesimal end of a hair – that is a conceivable or perceptible object or observer. The intrinsic nature of mind is undefinable and unimaginable, yet it is timeless and immutable. The Prajnaparamita-samchayagatha explains it thus:

Sentient beings speak of having seen the sky,
But one should examine how one has seen the sky!
In the same manner the Tathågata has shown
The way of seeing reality.

Saraha says:
From the beginning the nature of mind is pure like space.
In the process of looking, seeing comes to an end.

Savari elaborates:
In the process of searching for all that manifests as mind and matter
There is neither anything to be found nor is there any seeker,
For to be unreal is to be unborn and unceasing
Throughout the three periods of time.
That which is immutable
Is the state of great bliss.

He further states:
In the act of self watching the self,
A solitary self remains;
In observing this self, one does not see it.
This is undefinable since there is neither observer nor observation.
Who can comprehend
That which is undefinable?

Naropa comments:
The mind has the nature of luminous clarity,
Wherein there is no substance,
Not even the infinitesimal end of a hair."

Or Baizhang (Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 33):

"To speak of the mirror awareness is still not really right; by way of the impure, discern the pure. If you say the immediate mirror awareness is correct, or that there is something else beyond the mirror awareness, this is a delusion. If you keep dwelling in the immediate mirror awareness, this too is the same as delusion; it is called the mistake of naturalism."

And Dogen (Bussho, tr https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/dharma/pdf/25eF.pdf ):

"Many students, hearing the term “buddha nature,” have falsely reckoned that it is like the “I” in the alien path of Śreṇika. This is because they have not met a person, they have not met themselves, they have not seen a teacher. They have foolishly thought that the mind, mentation, and consciousness moved by wind and fire are the knowing and comprehending of the buddha nature. Who said that the buddha nature has knowing and comprehending? While perceivers and knowers may be buddhas, the buddha nature is not knowing and comprehending. Much less does the perceiving and knowing with which one refers to the buddhas as perceivers and knowers represent the perceiving and knowing in the false understandings you talk on about, the preceiving and knowing of the motion and rest of wind and fire."

And Foyan (Instant Zen, p 38):

"Let me give you an illustration. People have eyes, by which they can see all sorts of forms, like long and short, square and round, and so on; then why do they not see themselves? Just perceiving forms, you cannot see your eyes even if you want to. Your mind is also like this; its light shines perceptively throughout the ten directions, encompassing all things, so why does it not know itself?
Do you want to understand? Just discern the things perceived; you cannot see the mind itself. 
An ancient said, “The knife does not cut itself, the finger does not touch itself, the mind does not know itself, the eye does not see itself.” This is true reality."


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 18th, 2019 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
haha said:
One cannot figure out where the affliction of "unconscious beings of form realm" remains.

Astus wrote:
That's not the same, as the effects of past actions can occur because one is still attached to the aggregates. But for those who have no clinging at all, it is not possible to establish any obstruction to take effect at any point.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 18th, 2019 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
haha said:
That liberation does not mean omniscience. There is still obscuration to omniscience. One can say there are two root causes of avidya or dukkha: Klesa Avarana and Jneya Avarana. Due to the fear of Samsara, one seeks Nirvana. Could the result be the same without being free from two Avaranas?

Astus wrote:
Since it is accepted that arhats no longer cling to any of the aggregates, where could jneyavarana remain when one is free from both physical and mental appearances?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 18th, 2019 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
stevie said:
So your negation of Nirvana being 'a type of consciousness' was not meant to be a categorical negation because it can be an object of consciousness. However consideration that consciousness is impermanent but Nirvana is atemporal may entail further conceptual issues because they should be categorical different which is in contradiction to how consciousness has been defined before.
Perhaps the term 'consciousness' is merely not appropriate in the context of Nirvana considering its use in conventional buddhist teachings?

Astus wrote:
Nirvana is the complete cessation of defilements. Is it possible to experience cessation, like when one no longer feels attracted to an object? In a way, yes, one can know that. On the other hand, such cessation is not actually an object to be observed. That's why it's similar to observing space, as space is not really a visual object, but rather an absence.

"However completely one explores the entire space,
Seeing will completely cease, for space is infinite.
Similarly, one explores inner and outer reality,
But one will not find any essence – not even a subatomic particle!
The mind thus explored is inconceivable;
Hence seeing nothing is seeing it indeed."
(Shavaripa, quoted in Mahamudra: The Moonlight, p 193)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 18th, 2019 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
haha said:
If there are still some limitations, then there should or must be some defilement.

Astus wrote:
Abilities and limitations are the products of actions, not defilements. That's why a bodhisattva has to accumulate merit over uncountable aeons.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 18th, 2019 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
stevie said:
but the crucial point of my question is that both terms refer to a (meaning) content, let it be any content whatsoever, a content of let's say 'mind'.

Astus wrote:
Nirvana may be categorised as an object of consciousness, just as space can be a visual object.

"A vision in space is a being, so they declare.
A vision like that of space, so should you consider that object!
Thus has the vision of Dharma been expounded by the Tathagata.
But it is not possible to report on that vision by definite statements [that differ from it]."
(Ratnagunasamcayagatha, 12.257, tr Conze)

"If you say definitively that space exists, then space is not the Dharma body. If you say definitively that the Dharma body exists, then the Dharma body is not space. Simply refrain from creating an interpretation [of the existence] of space, and space will be the Dharma body. Refrain from creating an interpretation [of the existence] of the Dharma body, and the Dharma body will be space."
(Huangbo: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 21)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 18th, 2019 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Supramundane said:
can you please elaborate? does it say in any sutra that nirvana is atemporal?
it is unconditioned and not subject to dependent origination, but does this mean it is atemporal?

Astus wrote:
Nirvana is agreed by all to be unconditioned, and unconditioned means that it is without arising, duration, and cessation, or in other words: unborn and undying, something that some Mahayana sutras even call permanent. So it is atemporal because it is unconditioned. One common synonym of nirvana is amrta, what literally means deathless, but is also a word for the nectar of gods that makes them immortal.

“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”
“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”
When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”
“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
( https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 18th, 2019 at 6:13 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
stevie said:
Does that meant that Nirvana is NOT gnosis or gnoseological knowledge?

Astus wrote:
Please define "gnosis or gnoseological knowledge".


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 18th, 2019 at 5:34 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Sherab said:
Is there a dimension which is atemporal?
In Einstein's Relativity,

Astus wrote:
Unlike Einstein's Relativity, Buddhism operates within the framework of the five aggregates and eighteen elements. Is there anything atemporal in Buddhism? Yes there is: nirvana. Is nirvana a type of consciousness? No, it is not.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 18th, 2019 at 5:25 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Astus wrote:
the conventional is mistaking the conventional for the ultimate, and the ultimate is seeing the conventional as simply conventional.

Rick said:
Is the ultimate in red the same as the ultimate in green?

Astus wrote:
They don't have the same meaning. When the conventional is mistaken for the ultimate, it means that one assumes that there is a substance, that behind concepts there are real entities, and that is how ordinary, i.e. conventional, view looks like. On the other hand, what is called the ultimate truth is seeing that there is no substance, that concepts are just mere concepts without any reality, so that's how conventional is just conventional.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 17th, 2019 at 5:02 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Sherab said:
From the Udana 8.1 alone, it is possible to conclude that there are two types of consciousness.

Astus wrote:
There are thousands of suttas where it is taught again and again that consciousness is impermanent, unsatisfactory, impersonal, and empty, while there are a few stanzas - not even proper explanations - suggesting a different type. From this it should be clear that one should not base one's interpretation on a handful of poetic lines, but rather on what was clearly and often taught by the Buddha. Apart from scripture, an unconditioned consciousness is also contradictory and illogical that no Buddhist tradition held up as real, because such a concept is nothing else but a self view.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 17th, 2019 at 4:37 PM
Title: Re: The Four Noble Truths are
Content:
Viach said:
" arose in me " So 4NT is the result of practice. Only the result could arise.

Astus wrote:
All four truths have "three rounds": view, practice, result. In that order are they to be fully realised.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 17th, 2019 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Zen and patriotism
Content:
Matylda said:
non-attachment as people understand it now leads to pure negativism and finally to nihilistic views.
it is for sure not mahayana teaching. neither zen mahayana.

Astus wrote:
What do you base that on?

"The essence of the Way is detachment. And the goal of those who practice is freedom from appearances. The sutras say, Detachment is enlightenment because it negates appearances."
(Bodhidharma: https://terebess.hu/zen/bodhidharma-eng.html#wakeup )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 16th, 2019 at 7:58 PM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
haha said:
Just understanding the selflessness of person does not bring the understanding selflessness of phenomena. Have Sravakas understood the selflessness of the phenomena? If not, then how could the goal be same? How do you address this issue?

Astus wrote:
That distinction between the emptiness of personality and appearances is merely about a doctrinal disagreement. Practically it's not possible to say that the aggregates have the attributes of self but there is no self. One is either attached to the body and mind or not. Nobody disputes that arhats do not cling to the aggregates. Since there is nothing left to grasp at, it cannot be said that there is any defilement left.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 16th, 2019 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Highly recommended: https://beingwithoutself.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/theunconditioned.pdf - a Dharma talk by Jeff Shore.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 16th, 2019 at 6:49 PM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
haha said:
Another point is the attainment of complete Buddhahood that was not addressed in Pali cannon.

Astus wrote:
The numerous special attributes of the Buddha was quickly set up, mostly after his parinirvana, as a way of elevating the Teacher above common people. But when we come to the matter of actually attaining buddhahood, the goal becomes synonymous with the ultimate doctrine, emptiness in Prajnaparamita and the nature of mind in later teachings. As it's summed up in Zen, the Buddha is mind, and the mind is Buddha. So practically buddhahood is not different from the goal given in the Nikayas: freedom from attachment to the aggregates and sensory areas.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 16th, 2019 at 4:36 PM
Title: Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic?
Content:
Sherab said:
The question then is why the need to label the destruction of lust etc as unconditioned?

Astus wrote:
There is the category of conditioned, and so there is the category of unconditioned, or in other words, there is samsara and there is nirvana. It is the unique teaching of the Buddha that instead of pointing to God, Soul, Essence, etc. as the ultimate, he taught liberation from birth and suffering as the final elimination of afflictions. And he also shown the many versions of mistaking the various mental states and realms as the ultimate. Similarly to other terms, like karma and brahmana, the Buddha gave a new meaning to what a person should strive for.

Sherab said:
I would argue that it would be inaccurate to say that it is unconditioned since it can be argued that nirvana is dependent on the destruction of lust etc.  One could even argue that the Buddha by teaching dependent origination and emptiness, was actually teaching that there is no dharma that is unconditioned.  Yet the Buddha did talk about the unconditioned.  It seemed so unnecessary.

Astus wrote:
There are conditioned states where one finds no lust, but those are temporary. The final destruction of afflictions is called the unconditioned because there is no coming back to samsaric states.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 16th, 2019 at 6:59 AM
Title: Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic?
Content:
Sherab said:
But are the five aggregates unborn, unmade etc?

Astus wrote:
The aggregates are impermanent.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 15th, 2019 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Rick said:
Does any Buddhist school entertain the possibility that a person could have an accurate intuition <not based on experience, or evidence, or logical reasoning> of what's really goin' on here?

Astus wrote:
Such a person is called a faith follower (saddhānusārī), see e.g. https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.001.than.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 15th, 2019 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Rick said:
Awareness_2 (non-dual) is, by definition, permanent (more accurately: not of time) and non-experienceable. The only 'hard' evidence is the word of the sages recorded in the scriptures.

Astus wrote:
Since it is not experienced by anyone, the "word of the sages" is meaningless. As the Buddha said in the https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.095x.than.html:

"Suppose there were a row of blind men, each holding on to the one in front of him: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. In the same way, the statement of the brahmans turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmans turn out to be groundless?"


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 15th, 2019 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
bridif1 said:
What was the need behind the development of new vehicles and teachings?

Astus wrote:
Check http://santifm.org/santipada/2010/sects-sectarianism/ by Bhikkhu Sujato.

bridif1 said:
Were those developments necessary for the achievement of the ending of suffering?

Astus wrote:
Yes and no. Yes, because people have this need. No, because it's mostly repeating the same in different form.

bridif1 said:
Were the teachings of the Buddha not good or complete enough?

Astus wrote:
"From the Mahāsāṃghika school
Will seven schools separate,
And from the Sthaviravāda eleven.
These are the twenty schools.
These eighteen and the original two
All derive from the Mahayana.
Neither correct nor incorrect,
I say that these will arise in the future."
(The Sutra of Mañjuśrī’s Questions, ch 15, BDK ed, p 99)

bridif1 said:
Why was it necessary to give more "turnings" to the Wheel of Dharma?

Astus wrote:
Different ears need different words.

bridif1 said:
Was the Buddha wrong in some of its teachings?

Astus wrote:
The Buddha can never be wrong.

bridif1 said:
What do you think of the idea found in the Pali Canon that the Buddha made no distinction between esoteric and exoteric doctrines, and that he taught everything that was required to uproot suffering and its causes?

Astus wrote:
Calling a teaching esoteric is a technique. It's not about actually hiding something, but rather about calling attention to it.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 15th, 2019 at 9:26 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
LordByronX said:
An independent awareness could exist being aware of everything including itself.

Astus wrote:
There can be no interaction between a permanent entity and changing entities, because perception of change means change in the perceiver, which cannot happen to an independent thing.

LordByronX said:
In my view consciousness is something abiding, a permanent field.

Astus wrote:
Such a view is neither logical nor provable.

LordByronX said:
A permanent awareness could be a field within which changing perceptions appear - arise and fall. This would not affect the field in any way.

Astus wrote:
If the field is not affected, then the field is insentient, dead, unconscious, therefore it is not aware of anything. Awareness of change is change in perception, hence not permanent.

LordByronX said:
In many instances of Buddhist text what I read is similarly called "original or pure mind."

Astus wrote:
That refers to emptiness, that there is no permanent mind. The impure and false mind is the one that attaches to the idea of self, that is, the idea of a permanent perceiver and doer.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 15th, 2019 at 6:32 PM
Title: Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic?
Content:
Sherab said:
Is there a holder for the lust, the hate and delusion?

Astus wrote:
See the https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html that talks in brief of the difference between the five aggregates and the five clinging aggregates. It is clinging to the aggregates that is removed with liberation, not the aggregates themselves. The https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.191.than.html also states clearly how it is clinging that brings about suffering, not the senses and their objects. So, if you want to name a holder of afflictions, that is the aggregates and elements, but calling them holders is quite misleading, since afflictions themselves are mental phenomena, so they operate in that context, but they are not the only mental phenomena.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 15th, 2019 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Rick said:
So there is <dependent> arising on the conventional level, but on the ultimate level there is no arising. Right?

Astus wrote:
Right. But it should not be forgotten that conventional and ultimate are not two different realms, the two truths are only used for the sake of explanation, while eventually one has to comprehend that the conventional is mistaking the conventional for the ultimate, and the ultimate is seeing the conventional as simply conventional.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 15th, 2019 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic?
Content:
The Buddha said:
There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated.

Wayfarer said:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.03.than.html

Astus wrote:
Of course there is. In Theravada there is only one such dharma (nirvana), while in Yogacara there are up to eight asamskrta dharmas. And how did the Buddha define it? Check out the https://suttacentral.net/sn43. It gives a straightforward definition (e.g. SN 43.1, tr Bodhi):

"And what, bhikkhus, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the unconditioned."


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 14th, 2019 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Rick said:
The opening verse of the MMK doesn't refute arising, it refutes non-dependent/non-empty arising.
Right?

Astus wrote:
Yes, it refutes actual arising.

Liberation Bodhisattva asked the Buddha, “World-Honored One, when a sentient being perceives the birth of a dharma, what view should he discard? When he perceives the death of a dharma, what view should he discard?”
The Buddha answered, “Bodhisattva, when a sentient being perceives the birth of a dharma, you should have him discard the view of its nonexistence. When he perceives the death of a dharma, you should have him discard the view of its existence. If he discards these views, he will realize that dharmas are by nature absolutely empty and definitely have no birth.”
( http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra53a.html, ch 2)

"A magician causes forms to appear,
Creating horses, elephants, chariots, and so on.
But though they appear they do not exist at all.
Know that all phenomena are like that.
In the dream of a young woman
She gives birth to a son and then sees him die.
She is happy when he’s born and sad when he dies.
Know that all phenomena are like that.
In the night the reflection of the moon
Appears on clear, undisturbed water,
But it is empty of a moon and there is nothing to grasp.
Know that all phenomena are like that."
( http://read.84000.co/translation/toh127.html, 9.24-26)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 14th, 2019 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
LordByronX said:
These are not awareness itself.

Astus wrote:
There is no awareness itself, i.e. an independent awareness. An independent awareness could exist without being aware of anything, and that leads us to an unaware awareness.

LordByronX said:
1. How can you diferentiate the two? What is awareness and what is an object of cognition?

Astus wrote:
The differentiation is nominal, because there is no awareness on its own, only consciousness of objects. There is awareness of acts of consciousness (the so called manovijnanadhatu), and that is how perception of mind is possible.

LordByronX said:
2. If awareness was permanent. How would you your observation of arising and passing phenomena be different? How would you differentiate your observational experience from an experience where awareness would be (or is) impermanent?

Astus wrote:
A permanent awareness cannot have changing perceptions, otherwise it'd be a changing and impermanent awareness. So a permanent awareness is permanently aware of the same thing, and cannot be aware of change.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 14th, 2019 at 7:23 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
LordByronX said:
BUT dependent, impermanent awareness cannot be [directly] observed either. We can only observe impermanent phenomena that arises and fall and based on that make various premises

Astus wrote:
Awareness is an impermanent phenomenon that arises and falls, hence observable even by your definition.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 14th, 2019 at 6:48 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
LordByronX said:
Observational data equally supports one or the other.

Astus wrote:
An independent, permanent awareness cannot be observed or experienced in any way, because either it is always apparent or never, otherwise it is not permanent. Consequently the assumption that an unchanging awareness is observed is neither reasonable nor perceptual.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 14th, 2019 at 5:21 PM
Title: Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
That doesn’t seem to put the case for why Zen is not monistic. Perhaps you might comment on that particular point?

Astus wrote:
If there is no singular entity upheld as the substrate of everything, then it cannot be monistic. So, not all is mind, because there is no mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 14th, 2019 at 4:25 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Rick said:
Are you saying the MMK says that there IS arising/origination 'outside of' dependent origination?

Astus wrote:
It is in dependent origination there is no origination, but it does not negate dependent origination. Just as in birth there is no birth, that's why it's birth. In other words, that appearances are empty does not mean there are no appearances.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 14th, 2019 at 4:09 PM
Title: Re: If all is mind then how is Zen not monistic?
Content:
Dgj said:
in Zen all is mind. The definition of "monism"

Astus wrote:
Should start with the definition of mind. See what Mazu said (Sun-Face Buddha, p 62):

"'Those who seek the Dharma should not seek for anything.' Outside of mind there is no other Buddha, outside of Buddha there is no other mind. Not attaching to good and not rejecting evil, without reliance on either purity or defilement, one realizes that the nature of offence is empty: it cannot be found in each thought because it is without self-nature. Therefore, the three realms are mind-only and 'all phenomena in the universe are marked by a single Dharma.' Whenever we see form, it is just seeing the mind. The mind does not exist by itself; its existence is due to form. Whatever you are saying, it is just a phenomenon which is identical with the principle."

And Huangbo (Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 13):

"The Buddhas and all the sentient beings are only the One Mind—there are no other dharmas. Since beginningless time, this mind has never been generated and has never been extinguished, is neither blue nor yellow, is without shape and without characteristic, does not belong to being and nonbeing, does not consider new or old, is neither long nor short, and is neither large nor small. It transcends all limitations, names, traces, and correlations. It in itself—that’s it! To activate thoughts is to go against it! It is like space, which is boundless and immeasurable."

The mind they talk of is the emptiness of the common consciousness of thoughts and feelings. All is mind means all is fabricated and empty.

"if you realize that the ten thousand dharmas never come into being, that mind is like a phantom, that not a speck of dust nor a single thing exists, that there is no place that is not clean and pure—this is Buddha."
(Record of Linji, tr Sasaki, p 12)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 14th, 2019 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Rick said:
Doesn't the opening salvo of the MMK pretty much annihilate causality?

Astus wrote:
Chapter one discusses the reality of conditions, and, as one could expect, conditions are very much unreal and fabricated. But that's not an annihilation of conditions, or causality, but rather its clarification, where it is in dependent origination that there is no origination, and not that there is no origination at all.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 13th, 2019 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Rick said:
What's the ill logic?

Astus wrote:
That there can be an independent consciousness.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 13th, 2019 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Encountering Zen Buddhism
Content:
Astus wrote:
Hsing Yun: http://hsingyun.org/books/core-teachings/, and other http://www.fgsitc.org/booklets/

Guo Ru: ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/EN375.pdf (slow download)

Sheng Yen: http://chancenter.org/en/publication/free-books

Thich Thanh Tu: https://tienvnguyen.net/images/file/G5gYJdC51AgQAHUb/keystobuddhism.pdf

http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020

https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/leaflet/index.html


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 13th, 2019 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Vasana said:
If you accept the 8 consciousness model and the alaya-vijnana then there will always be an underlying basis that is unborn and so it doesn't 'end' either. The unborn and unceasing continuity is experienced as either Jnana/ yeshe or vijnana / namshe .

Astus wrote:
Alayavijnana in Yogacara is very much momentary and empty.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 13th, 2019 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
Rick said:
Understanding_2 is nondualistic: Consciousness is like an always-present field in which apparent objects arise and fall.

Astus wrote:
That is a common, but illogical, belief in an independent subject, i.e. a self.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 13th, 2019 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Why is consciousness seen as something impermanent?
Content:
LordByronX said:
It is a root, a base, ever present (unchanging) field within which (changing) content of consciousnesses can be perceived.

Although you could argue that this base awareness "arises" as co-dependent to its content (eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc) and is therefore impermanent and changing, I respectfully see that as a conclusion based on a limited interpretation of observation of rising and falling phenomena of the mind (content of consciousness).

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is necessarily conscious of something. If there is nothing it is conscious of, it cannot still be called conscious, otherwise unconsciousness is consciousness. This is the same with all the other senses. Seeing is seeing something. If nothing is seen, that is not called seeing.

See: MN 38, SN 12.61, and MMK ch 3 & 9


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 12th, 2019 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Zen and patriotism
Content:
Viach said:
Is Zen Buddhism compatible with patriotism: after all, in the Buddhism context, patriotism is only a kind of affection?

Astus wrote:
It depends on one's level of Buddhism. For ordinary people they are compatible, as long as one maintains the precepts. For those with bodhisattva motivation, it is something to be left behind for the sake of universal compassion and unbiased view.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 12th, 2019 at 4:00 PM
Title: Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?
Content:
Sentient Light said:
The canon is very explicitly a selection. It is recorded that some teachings were not kept in the canon, and then different lineages began to curate and organize what they had in different ways. In all likelihood, the 4NT (despite what tradition claims) probably came later on, maybe in the middle of the Buddha's career rather than the beginning, and was developed as a mnemonic device to encapsulate the teachings.

Astus wrote:
What do you base those claims on?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 9th, 2019 at 6:32 PM
Title: Re: Piercing the empty sky
Content:
Astus wrote:
The meaning is summed up by Tony Duff (Gampopa Teaches Essence Mahamudra, p 59 n153) as: "You can hold up a spear or lance and whirl it around in the space above your head but nothing happens because the lance is being flourished within space. It is a metaphor for excellent practice in which the actual state of emptiness has been met."

A whole teaching using the simile: https://www.lionsroar.com/the-eight-flashing-lances/

"Because nothing is attained, the Bodhisattva, through  reliance on prajna paramita, is unimpeded in his mind."
( http://www.cttbusa.org/heartsutra/heartsutra.htm )

"The bodies and minds of all sentient beings
Are altogether like an illusion.
The attribute of the body belongs to the four great elements;
The nature of the mind derives from the six types of sense objects.
Since in essence the four great elements are distinct from one another,
Who could constitute the one who holds them together?
If one gradually practices in this way,
Everything in its entirety will become pure,
Undisturbed, and pervade the dharmadhātu.
There will be no striving, going along with things, stopping, or extinguishing,
Nor will there be anyone who realizes it."
(Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, ch 3, in Apocryphal Scriptures, BDK ed, p 69-70)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 3rd, 2019 at 4:42 PM
Title: Re: The Four Noble Truths are
Content:
Viach said:
Did Buddha practice Four Noble Truths or did he simply discover them as a result of his practice?

Astus wrote:
"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 1st, 2019 at 6:15 PM
Title: Re: Sutras on Sexual Misconduct
Content:
pael said:
What if one's wife is a virgin?

Astus wrote:
It refers to girls under the protection of parents. When she becomes a wife, from then on she's under the protection of the husband.

pael said:
When women is considered as a wife?

Astus wrote:
Traditionally when the parents give the woman to the groom.

The same line is translated in a more succinct manner by Shih Heng-ching (BDK ed, p 173) as: "If at an improper time or place one has sexual contact with women other [than one’s wife], one commits the offense of sexual misconduct."


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 30th, 2019 at 5:21 PM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka school practices
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Am I missing any other classical sources?

Astus wrote:
The https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra, you shouldn't miss that. Ven. Dharmamitra also translated from that the discussion of the six paramitas as " http://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/n6p_book_page.htm ", and there is the http://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/mspw%20book%20page.htm as an educational extra.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 28th, 2019 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Sutras on Sexual Misconduct
Content:
Miroku said:
Would you please elaborate on the third reason?

Astus wrote:
Excessive behaviour as overindulgence in lustful activities, at least that is a possible take on the matter, although it could as well be a mistaken interpretation, since prostitutes and concubines are accepted entertainment, and in that case what we see in the commentarial and Mahayana literature is a reflection of Indian social norms (compare that with the Japanese Buddhist take on male love - e.g. https://www.academia.edu/10034080/The_Red_Thread_Buddhist_Approaches_to_Sexuality by Bernard Faure).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 28th, 2019 at 4:27 PM
Title: Re: Sutras on Sexual Misconduct
Content:
Miroku said:
even sutra writings discourage from a same sex behaviour.

Astus wrote:
Some mention it, but most of them do not. In any case, it is advisable to look at the reason behind the various precepts. In case of sexual misconduct, there are those against harm (the classical set of protected individuals), those against disrespecting the Dharma, and those against excessive behaviour. Sex with another man (note: texts assume male readership) is the third kind.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, January 27th, 2019 at 5:02 PM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka school practices
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
practice just like classical Indian Madhyamikas practiced?

Astus wrote:
For the early ones look into the Mahaprajnaparamitopadesa (tr https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra ), other treatises from the era (see http://kalavinka.org/ ), scriptures like the Pratyutpanna Samādhi Sutra, Śūraṅgama Samādhi Sutra, Sutra on the Concentration of Sitting Meditation, etc. (available from https://www.bdkamerica.org/bdk-tripitaka-digital-downloads ). You should also familiarise with Sarvastivada methods (e.g. http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Methods%20of%20spiritual%20praxis%20in%20the%20Sarvastivada_Suen_2009.pdf ) and the so called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_sutras, as Madhyamaka mostly followed those.

For the later times, when Sarvastivada was changed to Yogacara, you can go by Haribhadra, Santaraksita, and especially Kamalasila and his Bhavanakrama. Might also add here most of what you can learn from the Tibetan traditions (e.g. Atisa and the Kadampas).


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, January 26th, 2019 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Sutras on Sexual Misconduct
Content:
Miroku said:
what sutras are talking about sexual misconduct in general

Astus wrote:
Sutras where precepts are mentioned discuss it in general, but they don't go beyond what you find in the early scriptures. It's summed up in the Upasaka Precepts Sutra:

"If one has sex at an inappropriate time or place, with someone who is a virgin, not one’s wife, or not a woman, one is guilty of the sin of sexual misconduct."
( http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra33f.html, tr Rulu; http://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T24n1488_p1069a04 )

Another way to put it, as in the Avatamsaka Sutra:

"This Bodhisattva is satisfied with his own wife and never pursues the wife of another. He does not even lust for his wife or concubines, or for women under his protection, betrothed to his relatives, or protected by the law, much less actually have sex [with them], much less in a perverted way."
( http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra36b.html, tr Rulu, http://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T10n0279_p0185a29 )

The last two words, however, are interesting, as the "perverted way" (非道, i.e. amārga) is what is defined as non-vaginal intercourse by the various treatises. However, Theravada does not have that element of definition of sexual misconduct, as even the Atthasalini (vol 1, p 130, tr Tin) lists only the various forbidden women. The Abhidharmakosabhasyam includes it as "Intercourse with one's own wife through a forbidden way." (vol 2, p 652), but does not provide a definition for it, while Wangchuk Dorje (Jewels from the Treasury, p 348) does. The https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225297.html is quite clear on the matter, and it even gives a reason why other orifices should be avoided:

"If one has intercourse with one’s own wife (kalatra) when she has taken a vow (samādānaśīla), is pregnant (garbhiṇī) or is nursing a child (pāyayanti) – or in a forbidden way (amārga) – that is the illicit practice of sexual activity." ( http://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T25n1509_p0156c08 )
"By a forbidden manner (amārgasthāna) means anything that is not by way of the female organ (yoni). The mind of the woman loathes [such practices] and to force her to such improprieties merits the name of illicit sexual practice." ( http://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T25n1509_p0156c17 )

The Siksasamuccaya (ch 4) lists non-vaginal sex (tr Bendall-Rouse (p 80): "So too of the man who uses his wife against kind."; " http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/content/269/112 "; http://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T32n1636_p0091a02 ) along with bestiality and rape as causes of falling into the deepest cold hell.

Miroku said:
maybe mentioning homosexuality/homosexual behaviour

Astus wrote:
There is a Pudgalavadin/Sammittiya abhidharmic work ("Tridharmaka Sastra" http://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T25n1506_p0022a18 ) where the "perverted way" (非道) - counted as the third form of sexual misconduct, the other two being those protected by secular and religious laws - includes intercourse with "lewd men" (婬男) and "incomplete men" (不成男), the latter being a likely reference to pandakas; however, apart from those two, the first perversion is not about the wrong orifice but sex with women who have recently given birth and unwed women.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 24th, 2019 at 3:48 PM
Title: Re: Ālayavijñāna, the storehouse consciousness, and the process of rebirth
Content:
Wayfarer said:
is plainly profoundly different to what we understand as existence, as it’s not physical.

Astus wrote:
The majority of realms in Buddhism are not physical in the same sense, and there are also the formless states of existence. One still has a sort of fine material body in the intermediate state.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 23rd, 2019 at 7:14 PM
Title: Re: Ālayavijñāna, the storehouse consciousness, and the process of rebirth
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So even though it is born with others, it must exist in the intermediate state so as to ensure continuation, musn’t it?

Astus wrote:
Beings may exist in the intermediate state, and beings have consciousness. There is no consciousness separate from beings. When a being is born, the consciousness is there too.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, January 23rd, 2019 at 5:38 PM
Title: Re: Ālayavijñāna, the storehouse consciousness, and the process of rebirth
Content:
Red Spinifex said:
The Ālayavijñāna, the storehouse consciousness, that induces rebirth and the manifestation of one's existence after rebirth, while the Ālayavijñāna itself is not the entity that is reborn. Is this a correct description or interpretation of the process?

Astus wrote:
There is only one consciousness with 8 functions that are called the eight consciousnesses. The function of the storehouse is similar to the common concept of memory, a storage for latent mental phenomena. The latent cannot be separated from the manifest part, so it is not correct to say that somehow the 8th consciousness is not born with the others. In fact, it's the 8th (and the 7th) that ensures the continuation throughout the realms.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Grigoris said:
Maybe WE are the one's that are making the mistake in assigning concrete characteristics, when the text is actually allegorical/metaphorical?

Astus wrote:
Vedanta is quite clear on the matter, and there Brahman/Atman is the (only) absolutely real entity. If for some reason Tantra contradicts the Vedantin understanding of Atman, it is not stated anywhere in the quoted section.

Grigoris said:
But if the Hindu Tantric path is so mistaken then how is it that there are 4 Nath Siddhas (5 if you include the kapala siddha Kapalaka) included in the list of 84 Mahasiddhas?

Astus wrote:
Stories and doctrines do not necessarily match.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 15th, 2019 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Grigoris said:
it differs only very slightly from Buddhist Tantra.

Astus wrote:
The quoted section is fairly standard Vedanta philosophy. Do you have any Buddhist tantra in mind that sounds very similar?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 7:49 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
The criteria for it being the Buddhadharma is consistency, not historicity.

Astus wrote:
Consistency with what?
Doctrinal consistency would require to have a basis, a consensus on what are definitely the teachings of the Buddha, then to that other teachings can be compared. For instance, there is what is called the four great references (cattaro mahapadesa), as found in AN 4.180 and DN 16, where it is stated: "If they’re not included in the discourses and found in the texts on monastic training, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. It has been incorrectly memorized by that mendicant.’ And so you should reject it."


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
These are people using the materials of the past to construct something new.  It’s not the same thing.

Astus wrote:
What would be the same thing?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Malcolm said:
The question is whether history matters, rather whose history matters. And, Peter points out, history is not science.

Astus wrote:
It may not be a science, but there are still ways to evaluate various historical evidences. So it shouldn't be a matter of individual preference, or history should not be viewed any different from fiction.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 7:57 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
History is really an exercise in telling stories that make events of the past more readily comprehensible to people in the present. It's a branch of literature. I'm always going to be interested in research on the sources of Dharma texts. However I can't see a situation in which that research is going to change anything about how one practices.

Astus wrote:
Are people influenced by the various stories of the Buddha, his disciples, and later masters? If yes, then history matters. As for the influence of historical research on practice, it's often found in reform and revivalist movements. Some possible examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C5%8Dnen, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menzan_Zuih%C5%8D, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taixu & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_Shun, http://eng.cheontae.org/info/loader.php?hcode=jongjo/joongchangjo, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agon_Shu, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Thanh_T%E1%BB%AB.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 7:03 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
so many layers of meaning in the apparently simple teachings of 'the first turning' which could then be interpreted and give rise to whole schools.

Astus wrote:
Between the Agamas/Nikayas and Mahayana there was a lot happening, particularly the so called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools, like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lokottarav%C4%81da. If viewed in that chronology, there is a quite organic continuity where distinguishing Hinayana from Mahayana is not that straightforward.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 6:34 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
I'm used to reading lineages that start with, say, Samantabadhra, and go through several non-human teachers. How am I to validate those through historical research?

Astus wrote:
Why should you? On the other hand, I assume when it comes to lineages of Lu Sheng-yen and such, then critical thinking and research is quite appropriate, wouldn't you agree?

PeterC said:
I am just cognizant of their many limitations.

Astus wrote:
Isn't that what proper scholarship requires?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 5:34 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
If you're reading a teaching given by, say, a Arya Bodhisattva to an entourage of non-human recipients, then there's a limit to what historical research can actually tell you.

Astus wrote:
One can start with checking the paper, the ink, the type of script, the language used, etc.

PeterC said:
I don't think it gets to assert precedence over the way history had been done in other periods on the basis of such a short track record.

Astus wrote:
That sounds like saying that truth depends on the ancestry of a field of study and not the methodology and other tools used.

PeterC said:
nor does it attempt to answer questions they particularly care about

Astus wrote:
If a teaching is valid because of the lineage and tradition, that is a historical view. If a teaching is valid because of other reasons, then past events do not matter.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 3:42 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
The existence of a living practice tradition is infinitely more valuable than a speculative historiography.

Astus wrote:
When being a tradition is an important element of a teaching's validity, then it is an interpretation of history that becomes a validating element, thus historical research may invalidate such a teaching.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 3:38 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The religious imagination of the Mahāyāna is of a completely different order to the earlier schools. Such ideas as the three bodies of the Buddha, the Infinite nature of the Cosmos, and other cardinal points of the Mahāyāna, are not stated explicitly in the earlier texts.

Astus wrote:
Most of such "Mahayana ideas" are present in non-Mahayana sources, like Dharmaguptaka, Mahasamghika, and Sarvastivadin teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 3:34 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Malcolm said:
That very much depends on what one means by "history." All the history books available to me in Tibetan, for example, assert very strongly Mahāyāna was taught by the Buddha. The only history books that dispute this claim are by western academics, who have no real practical interest in Buddhadharma anyway. For them, it is an intellectual game.

Astus wrote:
Presenting past events with an ideological bias is certainly a more common approach, especially when it comes to nationalism and religion. One of the main goals of history as an academic discipline (similarly to other scientific studies) is to eliminate such distortions as much as possible. So far it seems that there is no person or group trying to defend traditional views. Or do you know Tibetans (or others) who attempt to refute the academic history of Buddhism?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
Interdependent origination, emptiness, tathagatagharba...not history.

Astus wrote:
Are those not Buddhist teachings exactly because they are attributed to the Buddha in the scriptures?

PeterC said:
You’re reducing this all to chronology, and ultimately that’s a very limiting view of the Dharma.

Astus wrote:
It is a historical issue whether Mahayana was taught by Shakyamuni or not. If the Dharma is separated from the source and viewed as an idea on its own, that is a different matter then, and in that case one has to argue based on logic (e.g. prove that tathagatagarbha is true).


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
we don't rely on placing words in the mouth of a putative historical Buddha

Astus wrote:
That is how a sutra is defined, that it was spoken by the Buddha. If there is no need for that, then what is the differentiating factor between Buddhavacana and other teachings?

PeterC said:
Being dated as the oldest texts doesn't make it certain that they corresponded to anything the historical Buddha said or did

Astus wrote:
Since the scriptures form the basis for all teachings, and of all the scriptures the Agamas are the primary, it still makes all other works later. Saying that even the Agamas cannot be confirmed as the Buddha's teachings does not change that all the texts following it depend on the Agamas - therefore they are like later commentaries and reflections, or you could say improvements.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 6:17 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
As Shantideva said:

Astus wrote:
What they (pre-modern Mahayana apologetics) do not and cannot address is the historical argument. Apparently the academic view is not contested regarding Mahayana scriptures being later works, consequently it is currently not debated that the Nikayas and Agamas represent the oldest strata of scriptures and everything else is later, i.e. nothing else could be connected directly to Siddhartha Gautama himself.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 4:05 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Thomas Amundsen said:
What about two-fold emptiness? I thought this is asserted as being absent from Hinayana and Pratyekabuddhayana.

Astus wrote:
The emptiness of dharmas is an interesting one, as the concept of "dharma" (in the sense of the ultimate constituents of the world) is not found even in the Abhidhamma (Pali canon), but only the commentaries. At the same time, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patisambhidamagga (1.1.47; 2.20) is clear on the matter that the six senses and their objects are empty.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, January 7th, 2019 at 4:12 PM
Title: Re: How does the Buddha eat?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Putting food on the altar is a practice of giving and reverence, thus one feeds the inner buddha. You can find nice stories in the Dazhidulun of Nagarjuna (in Dharmamitra's translation: Nagarjuna on the Six Perfections & Marvelous Stories from the Perfection of Wisdom).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 30th, 2018 at 4:55 PM
Title: Re: Beginner in Mahamudra
Content:
Zolbec said:
What is the most complete and best introduction for beginners in Mahamudra?

Astus wrote:
Essentials of Mahamudra by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche should be the one that is quite thorough but at the same time not too complicated.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 24th, 2018 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Does Zen Buddhism need Four Noble Truths? If so, why?
Content:
Viach said:
Does Zen Buddhism need Four Noble Truths? If so, why?

Astus wrote:
If you mean whether Zen can be taught without mentioning the term "four noble truths", then yes, it can be. If you mean whether Zen teaches something independent from the meaning of the four noble truths, then no.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 15th, 2018 at 5:04 PM
Title: Re: Question about Nagarjuna's Heart of Dependent Origination
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Does the Chinese text have Ven Nāgārjuna, in the terminology of the translation, relate 事 to 理?

Astus wrote:
No. That is most likely a Chinese innovation.

Coëmgenu said:
Do you know where the text is in the Taishō Canon?

Astus wrote:
http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T32n1651_001
http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T32n1654_001


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 14th, 2018 at 6:25 PM
Title: Re: Question about Nagarjuna's Heart of Dependent Origination
Content:
Seeker12 said:
What is being referred to as extremely subtle entities that may be regarded with nihilism, lacking precise and thorough knowledge?

Astus wrote:
Entities is a general term here (vastu / 事), so it can be taken to refer to the aggregates, to name and form, to the basic constituents of a being. The first half of the sixth stanza is the continuation of the second half of the fifth discussing causal relation between lives, where there is nothing transferred nor anything annihilated.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 7th, 2018 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Mahabheriharakaparivarta sutra
Content:
White Lotus said:
Does anyone here know where i can get an English translation of the Great Drum Sutra.

Astus wrote:
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra19.html


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, December 6th, 2018 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: thoughts vs. emotions
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
seems like establishing that all appearances are mind is the standard direction

Astus wrote:
Yes, that it is. It should also be kept in mind that emotions fall under the category of samskara within the five aggregates, and under the mental concomitants (caitasika) within the abhidharma systems, often as primary and secondary afflictions (klesa & upaklesa). As for the basic feelings (vedana) of pleasant, painful, and neutral, they too exist as mental phenomena. But all that is basic Buddhism, not particularly Mahamudra, however, it serves as the fundamental perspective on what is what. I recommend this teaching on http://www.purifymind.com/ObstaclesPath.htm that gives a practical perspective.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 5th, 2018 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: thoughts vs. emotions
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
For the Mahamudra/Semde instructions which involve looking at the  color, shape, coming and going etc. of thoughts, does one practice with what we term "emotions" in the same way?

Astus wrote:
It could be said that when it comes to analysing appearances on the mental side, also called the moving mind, then generating strong emotions is the recommended way at the beginning.

Johnny Dangerous said:
There is no distinction made here between emotion and thought is there?

Astus wrote:
Only to the extent of their obvious nature, of how strong they appear. That's why first using anger and lust is easier.

Johnny Dangerous said:
So actually, I would ask for the same reason whether in this particular instruction, sense data can also count as "thoughts".

Astus wrote:
Check out the 9th Karmapa's instructions on meditating on appearances. Step one: appearances are mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 4th, 2018 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
If you don’t discriminate, how do you know what to write?

Astus wrote:
If it is not defined what discrimination is, how could its appearance be identified? I'm asking you, because it seems I have a different view about discrimination than you do, so it'd be better if you could specify what you mean by it.

LastLegend said:
If you are able to clearly discern all mental events, then that’s wisdom. But you cannot do that 24/7 and do it without errors because old habits kick in, so discriminating consciousness deludes, opposite of clearly knowing.

Astus wrote:
As I take it, discernment is discrimination, so if we use my interpretation, discriminating consciousness can also be a source of clarity, because what matters is not the act of discrimination, but the concepts one applies when discriminating.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 4th, 2018 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
It’s what you are using right now at your mind.

Astus wrote:
To read and write a lot of mental functions are used. Which one is discrimination?

LastLegend said:
The role and function of discriminating consciousness is to perpetuate old habits and create new ones when it deludes you.

Astus wrote:
In that case telling the difference between things - i.e. discriminating - is not discrimination, since that does not necessarily involve habituation, while mindlessly repeating things counts as an act of discriminating consciousness.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 4th, 2018 at 6:22 PM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
I was told that discrimination and intention are two but as soon as there is discrimination intention immediately arises.

Astus wrote:
What is discrimination then?

LastLegend said:
The gist is habits created by consciousness and sustained over many lifetimes lumped together as self, ignorance, etc.

Astus wrote:
Habits are not discrimination either. So, what is the role, function, act of discrimination?

LastLegend said:
I was told that we cannot fully understand until we pass the fence, so it’s really beyond my understanding but you can recognize that discrimination immediately followed by intention in your mind.

Astus wrote:
If it cannot be known what discrimination is, how can anyone get over it? That's like going to an unknown place where one can never arrive, simply because it cannot be told when one is there.

LastLegend said:
Practice is utilizing discriminating consciousness but it helps to reduce habits towards samadhi and great samadhi.

Astus wrote:
If one does not know what discrimination is, how can it ever be utilised?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 4th, 2018 at 6:26 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
the Mahāyāna definition supersedes the Hinayāna definition since it is a higher tenet system.

Astus wrote:
But this is not a Mahayana-Hinayana difference, but an ekayana-triyana one. Furthermore, ekayana doctrines also affirm that arhats realise that the aggregates are not self, therefore such a person is necessarily free from attachment to the body, the feelings, the concepts, and any state of mind, unless the pudgala-nairatmya for sravakas is a mere intellectual belief. But if it is genuine realisation, there can be no appearance or state that binds them, so there is no reason to be stuck in any equipoise either.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 4th, 2018 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
No, since the Lankavatara points out that arhats are roused from an equipoise of cessation and then set on the bodhisattva path, their motivation now redirected towards full buddhahood.

Astus wrote:
What I mean by a straw man arhat is that per definition an arhat is one no longer attached to the aggregates. If that meaning is changed, then it is not the same idea. The ekayana description rather fits a non-returner who resides in the pure abodes.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 4th, 2018 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
Discriminating consciousness has established itself as the mechanism that drives us. ... Consciousness within that mixed stated still arises in form of discriminating intention. The perception or thinking cannot be discriminating intention.

Astus wrote:
Is discrimination then intention? Or is there intention and separately discriminating intention? If the latter, what is the discriminating part, what is its role? If the former, intention is a basic mental function, just like perception, so there can be no mind without it.

LastLegend said:
That meditation the very consciousness is taken as the object but it is the subject. The acccurate way is it knows itself.

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is momentary. If a single moment of awareness is aware of itself, how is it not two minds? Or the mind knowing itself is a more complex matter, like thinking about how mind functions.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 2nd, 2018 at 5:21 PM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
At the state of ‘pure’ discriminating consciousness, you can stand witness to your unborn nature and that is non-discriminating knowing nature.

Astus wrote:
Discrimination is the ability to tell the difference between things, it is perception, recognition. Or there has to be a difference between discrimination and perception, where discrimination is perception distorted by false preconceptions, like the idea of self. If discrimination is defined that way, then for correct perception to happen one must eliminate the mistaken ideas, hence the need for study (sruta), reflection (cinta), and cultivation (bhavana) that establishes correct concepts and involves investigating appearances (dharmavicaya), in other words: insight (vipasyana).

LastLegend said:
Witnessing is not the same as realizing because of the very recognizition and distinguishing that nature itself is a product of discriminating consciousness. But at that mixed state (of recognizing nature and still being fabricated by discriminating consciousness), if you are able to sustain without arising discriminating intention or mental creation, that is wisdom.

Astus wrote:
Here it seems no difference between discrimination and perception is made, but still seems that for some reason discrimination/perception eventually has to go away. But if that were to happen, consciousness could not actually function in any meaningful way. That likely means taking a blank mind as the ultimate.


LastLegend said:
I was told that the practice is consciousness knowing itself until it dessolves which mean there is no subject and object remaining. The moment of great death.

Astus wrote:
The elimination of subject and object in Yogacara is the result of arriving at the correct view of consciousness only through conceptual effort. What does "consciousness knowing itself" means in your interpretation? How one knows one's mind, with what method?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 2nd, 2018 at 5:06 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Not according to definition of “arhat” in the lower schools. But, they are still arhats from the POV of the Mahayana.

Astus wrote:
So the arhat of ekayana is not the arhat of triyana (that includes Mahayana as well), and since no ekayanist has a sravaka motivation, their arhat idea has never actually been aspired to by anyone, thus nobody to convince or argue with on the superiority of bodhisattvayana. In other words, the ekayana arhat is a straw man.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 2nd, 2018 at 7:45 AM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
Wisdom cannot be a thought (with intention) created by discriminating consciousness.

Astus wrote:
Where does wisdom come from?

LastLegend said:
I was told that consciousness changes constantly and because of that there is an open gap to enter great samadhi that’s through meditation practice.

Astus wrote:
A gap between two moments of consciousness? In that case that gap is unconsciousness, hence no mental activity can happen.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 2nd, 2018 at 6:43 AM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
Yes, if that falls under wisdom. No, by discrimination, there is attachment which there is self.

Astus wrote:
If wisdom is already without attachment, then it cannot lead to freedom from attachment, only discrimination can. But if you deny that discrimination can lead to freedom, since we are left without any means, it is literally impossible to attain liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 2nd, 2018 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
Sure, but it’s the very thing that needs to be dessolved at the end. In its ‘pure’ state by itself is easy mistaken for realizing Buddha nature. This is often the case for practitioners.

Astus wrote:
If there is correct discrimination, there is no mistake, and necessarily eliminates even the clinging to discrimination.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 2nd, 2018 at 6:10 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The Śṛī Mālādevi Sūtra points out that arhats and pratyekabuddhas, as well as bodhisattvas, have not in fact abandoned all afflictions.

Astus wrote:
That is the former case, where arhats are not free from clinging to the aggregates, so not really arhats.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 2nd, 2018 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
Ok the discrimating consciousness is not clean, so it cannot be fully called wisdom as long as there is one end created by discrimating consciousness to lean on. It’s actually ignorance or attachment of self.

Astus wrote:
Discrimination is part of the path, it is what takes one to the result. Exactly because one is not yet free from grasping one has to use correct discrimination.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 2nd, 2018 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
Okay. What is making this statement if not discriminating mind?

Astus wrote:
Discrimination is quite essential on the path. After all, it is only wisdom that can ultimately defeat ignorance.

"The childish are attached to forms;
The moderate attains detachment;
By knowing the nature of forms,
Those of supreme intellect are free."
(Nagarjuna: Yuktisastika, v 55, tr Thupten Jinpa)

"To use wisdom to contemplate all the dharmas without grasping or rejecting is to see the nature and accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 31)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, December 2nd, 2018 at 2:15 AM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
Ok through eyes, mind that sees?

Astus wrote:
Better not assume mind to be an actual agent. Rather follow the classic teaching: as a result of contact between the eye and visible object visual consciousness arises.

LastLegend said:
I don’t think that is Zen. Stop grasping or grasping is still grasping to one end. Still discriminating mind.

Astus wrote:
You can continue that indefinitely, like not discriminating and discriminating is still grasping, etc.

"The essence of the Way is detachment. And the goal of those who practice is freedom from appearances."
(Bodhidharma, in Wake-up Sermon, tr Red Pine, p 47)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 1st, 2018 at 4:34 PM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
What mind that knows not to grasp? What that mind looks like when it doesn’t grasp?

Astus wrote:
A mind that has learnt the Dharma knows that grasping ends in suffering. The mind does not have any look in the first place, regardless of the presence or absence of grasping.

Even now there are things and beings one is attached to, and towards everything and everyone else there is no attachment (see: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.011.than.html ). One should not look for some special state of mind, rather address the cause of pain itself: ignorance. The way emphasised in various Zen texts is to stop grasping at concepts immediately, because it is based on ideas that attachment arises, and the path that ends clinging to thoughts is simply recognising them as unsubstantiated, unreliable, ungraspable.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 1st, 2018 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
What’s your take on that?

Astus wrote:
It is standard Mahayana (non-abiding nirvana) glazed with dramatic metaphors. Don't grasp things, don't grasp the absence of things, don't make a concept of not grasping anything - thus you have the three gates, or three deaths. In the end, the story is always the same since the four noble truths, craving and clinging perpetuates samsara.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 1st, 2018 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Mind consciousness, ignorance, and nature
Content:
LastLegend said:
How does Zen understand these things?

Astus wrote:
Since Zen lacks a doctrinal system, it cannot be said it has any specific interpretation. Individual teachers may have.

LastLegend said:
I’ve heard mind consciousness has to die once in order to pass through the gate of samsara.

Astus wrote:
It refers to the cessation of manas, the relinquishing of attachment to self. The term "great death" seems to have been used first by Yuanwu Keqin, and it might originate from a Zhaozhou story included in the Blue Cliff Record (case 41), where he comments:

"A man who has died the great death has no Buddhist doctrines and theories, no mysteries and marvels, no gain and loss, no right and wrong, no long and short. When he gets here, he just lets it rest this way. An Ancient said of this, "On the level ground the dead are countless; only one who can pass through the forest of thorns is a good hand." Yet one must pass beyond that Other Side too to begin to attain. Even so, for present day people even to get to this realm is already difficult to achieve."


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 29th, 2018 at 9:26 PM
Title: Re: “Alone, seated atop the Great Mountain”
Content:
shanehanner said:
Does anyone know the source of this quote? I’m pretty sure that’s the quote, or it’s something very similar.

Astus wrote:
A monk asked Baizhang, “What is extraordinary?” Baizhang said, “Sitting alone on the mountain.” The monk bowed; Baizhang then hit him.
(Blue Cliff Record, case 26, BDK ed, p 148)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 26th, 2018 at 6:13 PM
Title: Re: Bhavanga citta & ālayavijñāna
Content:
mechashivaz said:
Are these two thought to be identical, and likewise, identical to tathāgatagarbha ?

Astus wrote:
Alayavijnana is like bhavangacitta (a concept found mainly in Theravada commentaries, not the canon), both function as a basis for the continuation of a being and carries karma. Saying that the tathagatagarbha is within/identical to alayavijnana is another development in Mahayana not taught by Asanga, Vasubandhu, or Xuanzang.

mechashivaz said:
What's the text of Asanga discussing this and is it available?

Astus wrote:
Chapter 1 of Mahayanasamgraha. However, Asanga most probably had no knowledge of the Theravada doctrine (if the concept of bhavangacitta had existed at that time at all), and even states that sravakas are not familiar with this idea.

mechashivaz said:
If they're thought to be identical to tathāgatagarbha how would karmic seeds carry to rebirth or is it that the karmic seeds its self contains tathāgatagarbha? Any clarifications are most welcome!

Astus wrote:
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html explains in detail.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 25th, 2018 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: The Mahaparinirvana Sutra
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I have made this comment on the slide I have prepared for this sutra

Astus wrote:
The Nirvana Sutra is not controversial in Mahayana, and the ideas of permanence, bliss, self, and purity as characteristics of buddha-nature appear elsewhere too (e.g. Srimaladevi Sutra, ch 12; http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra52a.html, ch 3), but more importantly the tathagatagarbha doctrine became the mainstream view.

Wayfarer said:
However the Buddhist conception can be differentiated because the ‘true self’ is, in fact, empty of self!

Astus wrote:
The buddha-nature teaching does not negate the doctrine of emptiness and no-self. What it adds is that the buddha-qualities are not developed through the bodhisattva path but it's what all beings are like when they have no more attachment. So, for instance, when one has relinquished anger, there is love automatically.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 22nd, 2018 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: the six consciousnesses (vijnanas)
Content:
Grigoris said:
Not exactly.  Light has to be present for eye sensation to happen.  So it is not 100% correct to say that the eyes sees objects not light, because that would mean the eye could see them in the absence of light too.

Astus wrote:
It is in the context of the 18 dhatus that it can be said that light is not the object of seeing. As for other models, that is another story.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 21st, 2018 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: 5 wordly desires
Content:
seeker242 said:
So it's often said, by some, the human beings have 5 desires. Desire for food, sleep, sex, fame/reputation and wealth. Where does this come from? Some particular sutra?

Astus wrote:
It seems to be a later formation in Chinese Buddhism. I found a mention of three desires (三欲) - sleep, sex, food and drink - in Zhizhou's (678-733) http://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/X34n0636_p0037a16 that adds fame separately. But as five desires (五欲), it is listed in Yiru's (1352-1425) http://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/P182n1615_p0151b06, saying that it originates from the Huayan tradition.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 20th, 2018 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: the six consciousnesses (vijnanas)
Content:
clyde said:
I understand that light reflected from objects and making contact with the eye gives rise to eye consciousness, but how do thoughts which are sensed by the mind giving rise to mind consciousness arise?

Astus wrote:
The 18 dhatus is a simple and easy model (until you turn the page and delve into abhidharma). The eye sees (contacts) a visual object (not light, unless light itself is the object), and from the contact (seeing) emerges visual consciousness. Note that neither the organ nor the object is directly known, only the visual consciousness is the point where there is any awareness that there is something seen. Similarly with the other five. Mind consciousness is no different, as it is generally believed that on the one hand there is mind and on the other there are thoughts, whereby it is when there is a thought in one's mind that there emerges a consciousness of an idea, in other word, one thinks of something.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 19th, 2018 at 7:07 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land - Some Doubts and Weak Faith
Content:
Nosta said:
Its just my rational mind working a lot...

Astus wrote:
There is also a rational way to approach the Pure Land teachings, seeing how it is within the context of the whole of Buddhism. It requires first of all getting your mind around fundamental concepts, like rebirth, the various realms, karma, and dependent origination as the fundamentals. Then the specifics for the Mahayana path: the bodhisattva vows, buddha-lands, emptiness, and mind only. Based on those, it can become clear that it is actually possible to attain birth in a buddha-land through the establishment of faith, vow, and practice on the person's end, and the conditions defined by Amitabha's vows.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 18th, 2018 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Difficulty in discussing Mahayana across traditions
Content:
DGA said:
What is an authoritative text or source across Mahayana?

Astus wrote:
There is actually a large collection of texts from India that are present in both the Chinese and the Tibetan canon, plus the Pali canon - or at least the Sutta Pitaka - is generally regarded as buddhavacana.

DGA said:
What's authoritative in this sub, and what is less authoritative or not at all authoritative?

Astus wrote:
Whatever scriptures and treatises both parties accept can be used for reference, otherwise there are two valid sources: reasoning and experience.

DGA said:
According to Mahayana Buddhism, the history of Mahayana Buddhist doctrine is a narrative and catalogue of decline.

Astus wrote:
Whose interpretation of Mahayana is that? The Prajnaparamita and Vaipulya sutras were taught to beings with purer mind than the sravakas, and Tantras are claimed to be taught to those who were even more superior.

DGA said:
Innovations in the teachings are not improvements; they are signs of degeneration

Astus wrote:
Calling them innovations makes sense only if Mahayana sutras are viewed as historically later works, and that is a very modern view, not the traditional one. Furthermore, taking the historical perspective, later works are usually based on earlier ones, so they should actually be viewed as further extensions at least, not degeneration.

DGA said:
This suggests that the canon of Mahayana texts recorded in Sanskrit, prior to the decline of Buddhism in India, must be more authoritative for the purposes of pan-Mahayana discussion than, say, later Chinese, Tibetan, Japanese, or Korean doctrinal systems.

Astus wrote:
If it is OK to accept texts that are not the actual teachings of Shakyamuni, i.e. all the Mahayana scriptures, why look down on those composed beyond the Indian cultural sphere?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 16th, 2018 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: A request to explain Vajrayana to a common Mahayanika
Content:
pael said:
What these yogas are?

Astus wrote:
E.g.: http://chancenter.org/cmc/chan-practice/moving-meditation/


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 16th, 2018 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: A request to explain Vajrayana to a common Mahayanika
Content:
Anders said:
What's the main talking points of vajrayana that distinguishes it from common Mahayana?

Astus wrote:
Like Mahayana developed a Buddhist pantheon of buddhas and bodhisattvas to be used instead of common deities, Vajrayana integrated/developed devotional, ceremonial, imaginative, magical, and physical practices. In that way it is a more coherent and versatile way. Compare it with the presence of dharanis, rituals, and occasional body related (yoga, mudra, prana, etc.) techniques in Theravada and East Asia.

Anders said:
What's the deal with deity yoga?

Astus wrote:
It's next level buddhanusmrti, where you identify with not just the mind but also the body of a buddha. Compare that with the approaches to buddha-remembrance in Theravada, in Pure Land Buddhism, and in Zen.

Anders said:
How do you get around the whole "we eat meat, drink alcohol, have sex and engage in the kleshas still call this wisdom" practice thing without just discarding the classical Buddhist view of these matters altogether?

Astus wrote:
I'd say that is quite in line with how the bodhisattva activities within samsara allows all that. It's just that here again it's visible how Vajrayana took the next step, and instead of keeping it rhetorical, made it a practice.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 16th, 2018 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: omniscient? infallible?
Content:
clyde said:
Do you believe the Buddha was omniscient? Do you believe the Buddha was infallible?

Astus wrote:
"take a certain teacher who claims to be all-knowing and all-seeing, to know and see everything without exception, thus: ‘Knowledge and vision are constantly and continually present to me, while walking, standing, sleeping, and waking.’ He enters an empty house; he gets no alms-food; a dog bites him; he encounters a wild elephant, a wild horse, and a wild cow; he asks the name and clan of a woman or man; he asks the name and path to a village or town. When asked, ‘Why is this?’ he answers: ‘I had to enter an empty house, that’s why I entered it. I had to get no alms-food, that’s why I got none. I had to get bitten by a dog, that’s why I was bitten. I had to encounter a wild elephant, a wild horse, and a wild cow, that’s why I encountered them. I had to ask the name and clan of a woman or man, that’s why I asked. I had to ask the name and path to a village or town, that’s why I asked.’ A sensible person reflects on this matter in this way: ‘This teacher makes such a claim, but he answers in such a way. This spiritual life is unreliable.’ Realizing this, they leave disappointed."
( https://suttacentral.net/mn76/en/sujato )

See more on the matter: https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/buddha-omniscience.pdf.

"However, I would like to point out that attaining Buddhahood and understanding the ultimate nature of things does not mean the enlightened person does not need to formally learn anything, such as French or about the philosophy of Kant. To realize the nature of reality and to understand things on the empirical level of everyday life are quite different. Of course, these two worlds are not in opposition, as mentioned in connection with the yoga of one taste. However, it is evident that one who has attained the ultimate truth will not automatically be well versed in all fields of knowledge."
(Traleg Kyabgon: The Essence of Buddhism, ch 17)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 15th, 2018 at 4:22 PM
Title: Re: Non conceptual thought
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
This sounds like the most blank and agitated situation ... like a state where you can no longer know what an object is, and you are always in a state of wondering  what the object is, thus like a child who is always confused and never getting the answers.

Astus wrote:
You are right. A blank mind is not a mind free from concepts but a mind stuck in dark ignorance. As the Platform Sutra (ch 4, BDK ed, p 43) summarises it nicely: "Nonthought is to be without thought in the context of thoughts." The point is not to block or eliminate experiences, but to have no attachment to, or identification with them.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 14th, 2018 at 4:05 PM
Title: Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?
Content:
PeterC said:
常坐 is the chapter title from 摩诃止观？

Astus wrote:
Yes, the section about "constant sitting".

PeterC said:
Would you consider Ziporyn's discussion of that phrase in the review to be a fair representative of conventional reading of it?

Astus wrote:
I am not familiar enough with Tiantai to judge.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 14th, 2018 at 3:42 PM
Title: Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?
Content:
Admin_PC said:
The SAT Daizokyo says the phrase only occurs in 4 texts:

PeterC said:
what he's done is worse than selective selective quotation.

Astus wrote:
Quoting only the section 法界對法界起法界 is not Ziporyn's idea, but Zhili's (see: http://cbetaonline.dila.edu.tw/en/T46n1928_p0706c11 ). Ziporyn discusses the passage in his https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showpdf.php?id=51274 on p 20.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 13th, 2018 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
How do these three teachings link together in a coherent way?

Astus wrote:
Question: "I am not going to ask you how to negate one level through another level. But how do you not negate one level, if not through another?"
Answer: "Yesterday I  planted the eggplant, today the winter melon."
(Muzhou Daoming, T51n2076p291b21-23, tr from Original Teachings of Ch'an Buddhism, p 109)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 13th, 2018 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Lotus Vs wisdom Vs flower garland sutra worldview?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
I thought abhidharma was practically demolished by nagarjuna?

Astus wrote:
Not at all. On the one hand, you can take Madhyamaka as a different layer of teachings. On the other hand, not all abhidharma interpretations fall within the problematic points that Nagarjuna argued against.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 12th, 2018 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Pure land transcending the triple realm?
Content:
jhanapeacock said:
Where does in the mahayana suttas is mentioned this?  Is there a proof of this?

Astus wrote:
It seems to be more of a matter of reasoning regarding buddha-lands. Two important reasons for positioning Sukhavati beyond samsara are that (1) it came into existence due to Dharmakara's vows and (2) beings born there are driven by a wish for liberation. It is neither a result of ignorance, nor for the perpetuation of it.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 8th, 2018 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: How is enlightenment achieved in madhamaka and tiantai?
Content:
Marc said:
the distinction that you draw between early & late Madhyamaka as regard to Vipasyana & Abhidharma.

Astus wrote:
With the further development of Mahayana through the emergence of Yogacara things got more detailed regarding the bodhisattva path and practices, as you can see in the works of Candrakirti, Haribhadra, Santaraksita, Kamalasila, Santideva, Atisa, etc.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 7th, 2018 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: How is enlightenment achieved in madhamaka and tiantai?
Content:
Marc said:
Could you please elaborate a bit on this distinction?

Astus wrote:
The abhidharma approach is to break down conventional phenomena to ultimate constituents, i.e. dharmas, so there is no person, there are only the five aggregates, and those five are impermanent, etc. The madhyamaka approach is to break phenomena down to nothing. In the end the goal in both cases is to eliminate grasping at experiences.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 6th, 2018 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: How is enlightenment achieved in madhamaka and tiantai?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
My question is: did nagarjuna ever categorically offer a positive means or ANYTHING at all about what enlightenment is or how to get there?

Astus wrote:
Regarding the path, check Ratnavali, Suhrllekha, Yuktisastika, and Sunyatasaptati. Also look at Aryadeva's Catuhsataka. Madhyamaka in the early times differed from the Abhidharma approach in that it took a different view to vipasyana. Later Madhyamaka is another matter.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 6th, 2018 at 6:29 PM
Title: Re: reading Dogen's Shobogenzo
Content:
DGA said:
Would you mind elaborating on why you prefer Tanahashi's translation to the BDK edition?

Astus wrote:
It simply felt like an easier read, although otherwise not necessarily the most accurate translation. But probably you should decide it for yourself.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 6th, 2018 at 5:49 AM
Title: Re: reading Dogen's Shobogenzo
Content:
DGA said:
I have PDFs of all four volumes of the RPK translation of the Shobogenzo.  I've not opened them yet.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean the Nishijima-Cross translation published online by https://www.bdkamerica.org/bdk-tripitaka-digital-downloads?

DGA said:
I'd appreciate some suggestions on where to start

Astus wrote:
If it is the BDK edition, then in my opinion that translation is not the best first choice (that would be Tanahashi's). Perhaps start from the back where more general Mahayana topics are "Dogenised".

DGA said:
any commentaries that may have been translated in English.

Astus wrote:
I have not heard of any such thing. You can try the Soto journal https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/journal/index.html for the probably best translations with annotation, and other related articles. And of course there are some more popular chapters discussed by various teachers (e.g. https://books.google.hu/books?id=LZXwAQAACAAJ, https://books.google.hu/books?id=VoREDwAAQBAJ, https://books.google.hu/books?id=Ehk8DwAAQBAJ ).


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 6th, 2018 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: What does emptiness mean and why does it matter?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
I understand the need to see myself as empty but what is the point of seeing, say, inanimate objects as empty? Why does seeing the coffee cup as empty help me - if at all?

Astus wrote:
The main idea of emptiness is the elimination of attachment. Slapping the label of emptiness on objects certainly makes little sense, and one should quickly move on from that level before it becomes problematic. Objects are called empty because they are not one's self, nor one's possession, so "I am the cup" and "This is my cup" are mere misconceptions generating suffering. The more abstract sounding doctrine of emptiness of phenomena (dharma-sunyata) is not about inanimate objects, but rather doctrinal categories (i.e. dharmas) called mere concepts, therefore without first learning about dharmas, there is not much use of worrying about that. So, you are right, a coffee cup is not an issue, but it becomes one the moment you take it to be meaningful, important, or in other words: personal.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 6th, 2018 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: What does emptiness mean and why does it matter?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
what is wrong (if anything) with distinctions? If so then how is the negation of distinctions liberating?

Astus wrote:
I assume by distinction you mean vikalpa (分別).

Nagarjuna writes (MMK 18.5):

"Liberation is attained through the destruction of actions and defilements; 
actions and defilements arise because of falsifying conceptualizations;
those arise from hypostatization; 
but hypostatization is extinguished in emptiness."
(tr Siderits)

"Release occurs when action and defilements cease.
Actions and defilements are derived from thoughts,
And these come from the mind’s construction.
Emptiness is what arrests them."
(tr Padmakara)

Menzan Zuiho gives us this explanation (Jijuyu-Zanmai, in Heart of Zen, p 43-44):

"Mumyo (fundamental delusion) is called illusory mind. It is the source of the rounds of delusory life and death from the immeasurable past. It is our discriminating mind which obstinately clings to body, mind, the world, and all things, as being the way we have perceived and recognized them until now. For example, although something good is not always good, we hold stubbornly to what we think is good. Something evil is not always evil, yet we become attached to our own judgment and make it a preconception. Even if you think something is good, others may think it is evil. Even if you think something is evil, others may think it good. And, even if both you and others think something may be good or evil today, fundamentally such judgments merely accord with illusory mind which manifests itself in the form of one’s own knowledge, views, and experiences. This is true not only of our judgments about good and evil, but also our views about being and non-being, hatred and love, etc. All these differentiations in regarding all existence arise from illusory mind."


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 2nd, 2018 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: Nibbana Is Giving Up, Letting Go, and Being Free, Ajahn Chah
Content:
kirtu said:
The title is the product of editing.  But what are you objecting to?

Astus wrote:
The product of editing.

kirtu said:
I'd have to disagree with you.  This is completely a standard Theravadin presentation.  Why do you think this constitutes a "vague selfish concept"?
No, "doing and experiencing whatever one pleases" <> "being free".  The former is a teen boy definition of freedom and is thus inadmissible (and in fact teen boys who use that definition seriously give themselves a bad name and a bad reputation).  The later refers to at least the momentary freedom from the three poisons.

Astus wrote:
We don't seem to disagree. It is freedom from the three poisons that is the goal, not a conventional concept of freedom.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 1st, 2018 at 3:20 PM
Title: Re: Nibbana Is Giving Up, Letting Go, and Being Free, Ajahn Chah
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
....It's Ajahn Chah dude, did you read it or try to get the gist of it?

Astus wrote:
It's the title of that article I called misleading. The same text in the https://forestsangha.org/teachings/books/the-collected-teachings-of-ajahn-chah-single-volume?language=English has the title "About Being Careful". As for what "being free" would look like, that is different from the usual meaning of the term where it stands for doing and experiencing whatever one pleases.

"We practise to be free of suffering, but to be free of suffering does not mean just to have everything as you would like it, have everyone behave as you would like them to, speaking only that which pleases you. Don’t believe your own thinking on these matters."
(Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah, p 211)

"This is freedom: not to cling to conventions. All things in this world have a conventional reality. Having established them we should not be fooled by them, because getting lost in them really leads to suffering."
(p 22)

"In this way we can dwell in a natural state, which is peace and tranquillity. If we are criticized, we remain undisturbed. If we are praised, we are undisturbed. Let things be in this way; don’t be influenced by others. This is freedom."
(p 82)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 1st, 2018 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Nibbana Is Giving Up, Letting Go, and Being Free, Ajahn Chah
Content:
Astus wrote:
That's a bit misleading title. The text defines nibbana as "Nibbana means not grasping. Nibbana means not giving meaning to things. Nibbana means letting go." And continues: "Making offerings and doing meritorious deeds, observing moral precepts, and meditating on loving-kindness—all these are for getting rid of defilements and craving, for making the mind empty—empty of self-cherishing, empty of concepts of self and other—and for not wishing for anything, not wishing to be or become anything." The idea of "being free" seems somewhat out of place there. When it comes to freedom, there is the "mind is free of desire, free of defilement, free of craving", "freedom from selfishness", or "freedom from all these conditions and phenomena". But just being free, that's likely just another vague selfish concept.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 26th, 2018 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day
Content:
Astus wrote:
'(To say that) “the Buddha appears in the world and saves sentient beings” are words of the nine-part teachings; they are words of the incomplete teaching. Anger and joy, sickness and medicine, are all oneself; there is no one else. Where is there a Buddha appearing in the world? Where are there sentient beings to be saved? As the Diamond Cutter Scripture says, “In reality, there are no sentient beings who attain extinction and deliverance.”'
(Extensive Recored of Baizhang, in Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 71)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 23rd, 2018 at 4:13 PM
Title: Re: Honen or Shinran?
Content:
Astus wrote:
As I take it, the difference can be summed up like this:

Honen: faith is within nenbutsu.
Shinran: nenbutsu is within faith.

Practically, Shinran can be seen as a faithful follower of Honen, even if he used different expressions.

"In the Tannisho, Shinran expressed his Faith, saying that 'Shinran ... entrusted himself to the teaching of the Venerable Master (Honen) ---- that we are saved by Amida merely through the utterance of the Nembutsu.' Does this not contradict the above explanation on Faith and Nembutsu?
The teaching of Honen or Shan-tao was characterised by the emphasis on the Nembutsu in contrast to other sundry practices as required in different schools. However, the Nembutsu in Shan-tao's and Honen's teachings is the utterance of Amida's Name based upon true Faith. It is not the Nembutsu of self-power but it represents Amida's characteristic method of salvation as proclaimed in the Vow. Shinran used this expression, too, especially when he referred to Shan-tao's or Honen's teaching."
( http://www.nembutsu.info/standard/significance.htm )

A benefit of studying Honen is that he speaks directly and clearly, while Shinran seems to me more poetical, possibly because Honen wanted to establish his take on the Pure Land path, while Shinran already had something to build on.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 4:32 PM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
passel said:
detailed postural instruction in any of those texts, and if so, can you nail down any probable dates?

Astus wrote:
The Discourse on the Essential Secrets of Meditation (Chan Miyao Fa Jing 禪祕要法經, T15n613) is dated to the 2nd or 3rd century in origin by Ven. Dr. Yuanci, and it does have a description of posture at p243b24-27.

Here are Zongze's Zuochanyi and the Chan Miyao Fa Jing's relevant sections:
sit in the full cross-legged (lotus) position or in the half-lotus position. The left hand is placed on the right hand and the thumbs of both hands touch. The body is held straight in sitting, with [the ears balanced in line with the shoulders] and the nose and abdomen vertically aligned. The tongue rests on the upper palate, the lips and teeth are firmly closed, and the eyes remain slightly ope n so as to avoid falling asleep.

結跏趺坐 。或半跏趺。 以左掌安右掌上 。兩大拇指相拄。 正身端坐 。令耳與肩對。鼻與臍對。 舌拄上腭 唇齒相著。 目須微開 。免致昏睡。

結跏趺坐 ，齊整衣服， 正身端坐 ，偏袒右肩， 左手著右手上 ， 閉目 以 舌拄腭

Sit in the full cross-legged position, have the robe in order, the body is held straight in sitting, bare the right shoulder, the left hand rests on the right hand, eyes closed and tongue against the palate.
Note that those two texts are separated by around a thousand years, and still you find that a significant portion matches word by word.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, October 19th, 2018 at 2:45 PM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
passel said:
b) divergent evolution- a common body of probably early Indian textual sources that both are drawing from.

Temicco said:
Or, oral instructions.

Astus wrote:
Meditation texts were translated to Chinese very early: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_sutras.

For Dogen's sources, see "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation" by Carl Bielefeldt. The "manuals" themselves are mostly a copy-paste job from Zongze, and a little further Zen rework on them. But this small collection of Song era zazen instructions are not like the traditional Buddhist manuals, and it is telling that Zongze refers his readers to more extensive sources (see: The Baizhang Zen Monastic Regulations, BDK ed, p 257). In other words, it should be kept in mind that Zen was not a school closed of from the larger Buddhist tradition, and it should not be treated separately from Mahayana.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 18th, 2018 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Meido said:
that path of practice in fact has quite a lot to do with the body.

Astus wrote:
Do you know sutras that discuss physical practice? Or is it discussed only in Rinzai works?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 17th, 2018 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Pedagogy: Teachings on How to Teach
Content:
Astus wrote:
There's chapter 12 of the Mahayanasutralamkarabhasya discussing teaching.

"The Lord Buddha did not, in fact, teach the (ultimate) Dharma, since it is individually realized within. Still, the compassionate ones, like huge boa-constrictors, (first) attract people toward their own reality with their reasonable teachings, (which work) like the boa's paralyzing saliva, and (then) make them fall into the gaping mouth of their own peace, which is perfectly pure, universal, and inexhaustible."
(v 2, tr Thurman)

"The bodhisattvas' perfect teaching should be recognized as extensive, doubt-dispelling, acceptable, and twofold in its demonstration of reality.
The teaching of these best heroes is gentle, modest, tireless, clear, varied, reasonable, intelligible, non-exploitive, and universal.
The speech of the victor-children is powerful, gentle, eloquent, sensible, appropriate, non-exploitive, measured, and expansive.
(The bodhisattvas' syllables are perfect because they) teach, explain, are adapted to the vehicles, soothe, make sense, are appropriate, liberate, and favor."
(v 5-8)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 17th, 2018 at 5:59 PM
Title: Re: Pedagogy: Teachings on How to Teach
Content:
Astus wrote:
The basics from the Buddha:

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.111.than.html (AN 4.111) - like taming a horse
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.159.than.html (AN 5.159) - how to teach
Summary from https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/to-teach.htm.

Mahayana:

The https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=22185#p22185
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=21820#p21820 from the Bodhisatvacaryānirdeśa

Zen ideas from Linji:

"Whenever someone comes here seeking I immediately go out and look at him. He doesn’t recognize me. Thereupon I don various kinds of robes. The student, assigning some meaning to this, straightway falls into words and phrases. What a pity that the blind shavepate, a man without the eye [to see], grasps at the robe I’m wearing and declares it to be blue or yellow, red or white! When I remove the robe and enter the state of purity, the student takes one look and is immediately filled with delight and longing. Then, when I cast off everything, the student is stunned and, running about in wild confusion, cries, ‘You have no robe!’ If I say, ‘Do you know me, the man who wears these robes?’ he’ll abruptly turn his head around and recognize me through and through."
(tr Sasaki, p 26)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, October 17th, 2018 at 3:59 PM
Title: Re: One hand clapping
Content:
shanyin said:
could you translate?

Astus wrote:
"There is the sound of both palms hit together, but what is the sound of one hand?"


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 16th, 2018 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: One hand clapping
Content:
shanyin said:
I'd like to know what it is. I want to do this koan because I want something to think about especially during meditation.

Astus wrote:
This looks like a common version: 両掌相打って音声あり、隻手に何の音声かある。


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 16th, 2018 at 5:31 PM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Temicco said:
That is "Huineng"'s view, and Shenhui's, but neither Huangbo nor Linji nor Zhaozhou say that their own mention of "sitting" is not meant literally.

Astus wrote:
For Huangbo, here's https://www.ymba.org/books/dharma-mind-transmission/chung-ling-record: " Sitting properly and peacefully, not bound by the world - this alone is called liberation!"

For Linji, he mentions sitting twice in a positive context, and three times in negative. There is also a significant difference between them, as the positive statements regarding sitting do not really refer to meditation. One is about Linji himself sitting quietly (穩坐, p 11 in Sasaki), and interviewing visitors, and the other is about the enlightened monk sitting leisurely in the monastery hall (不如無事、向叢林中、床角頭交腳坐, p 21 in Sasaki). On the other hand, the three negative mentions are specifically about meditation practice. The first one (p 17) calls it heretical, and talks of the practice of stillness and illumination, the second one (p 24) talks of the motionless posture as mistaken for the patriarchal way, and the third one (p 29) talks of the dedicated solitary practitioner who sits for long periods of time as mere karma generation. So from this it is quite clear that Linji did not talk of sitting meditation as something related to Zen (in the sense of sudden enlightenment).

Temicco said:
Clearly Zen is not inescapably about sitting -- there are plenty of quotes dismissing such an idea, including the Platform sutra quote -- but I don't think that attitude should be brought as an interpretive lens to every mention of "sitting" in Zen texts.

Astus wrote:
Agreed. I merely brought it up with relation to how the word zen can be interpreted.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 15th, 2018 at 4:36 PM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
To practice without a sense of personal gain, is not the same as practicing without any sense of purpose.

Astus wrote:
That still sounds like a high level aim, that would require insight into no-self. Why not go with bodhicitta?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 15th, 2018 at 4:16 PM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
one has to put aside any sense of getting something or achieving some result from meditation.

Astus wrote:
There is the gradual practice model used by Zongmi, Yongming, and Jinul, where practice does have a meaningful purpose. Dogen is a different case, although there is not much of a detailed system for it. However, the idea of aimless action fits only the level of buddhas, and that cannot be used for those who are not yet on the stage of complete awakening, even though there is a difference between not anxiously craving for enlightenment and genuine aimlessness.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 15th, 2018 at 3:20 PM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Temicco said:
Yes, I agree. So do the later texts that I mention.

Astus wrote:
Those later texts are hundreds of years apart from the early ones, so there is actually a big gap during the Tang era.

Temicco said:
Even Huango arguably does, too.

Astus wrote:
He does not. He merely mentions sitting peacefully. But throughout the text he denigrates all effort and all practice as deluded attempts of the gradual path.

"However, there is fast and slow in realizing this mind: there are those who attain no-mind in a single moment of thought after hearing the Dharma; those who attain no-mind after [passing through] the ten faiths, the ten abodes, the ten practices, and the ten conversions; and those who attain no-mind after [passing through] the ten stages [of the bodhisattva]."
(Huangbo in Zen Texts, BDK edition, p 16)

It's either the sudden or the gradual path. And sudden means enlightenment right at the moment of hearing the Dharma. What more would be needed?

"To become profoundly enlightened into [this truth]— right now, and that’s it! Perfect and sufficient, nothing is lacking. One may cultivate energetically for three eons, passing through the various stages. Then in a single moment of realization one realizes only that originally one was oneself a Buddha, with not a single thing that could possibly be added."
(Huangbo, p 17)

Temicco said:
Yes, but the term dhyana was used in specific ways in the sutras, and can't necessarily be equated with the "chan" in "zuochan" just because the words are the same. The perfection of dhyana always occurs in discussions of the 6 paramitas, but the term "zuochan" is not used like this nor associated with the paramitas in any Chan literature I've ever read. So, I think it is a misreading to think that the meaning is the same.

Astus wrote:
That might be so. But then it should be also mentioned that not only chan has a different meaning, but so does zuo, hence it is not about any cultivation, nor any posture.

"Externally, for the mind to refrain from activating thoughts with regard to all the good and bad realms is called ‘seated’ (zuo). Internally, to see the motionlessness of the self-nature is called ‘meditation’ (chan)."
(Platform Sutra, ch 5, BDK ed, p 45)

Temicco said:
Yes, I don't doubt that. But really, this ony supports my view -- meditation is not the essential point, but nevertheless it does not merit complete de-emphasis. It is an expedient with a long history, and is a favoured expedient in most Zen texts as far as I can see.

Astus wrote:
Sure thing, just as all the other elements of Mahayana, meditation is used.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 15th, 2018 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Temicco said:
What was your point about them again?

Astus wrote:
That they discuss actual meditation methods.

Temicco said:
Starting when do you propose that Caodong incorporated the same kanhua path?

Astus wrote:
I have no information on that. But it seems that the Ming era revivers of Caodong, Zhanran Yuancheng and Wuming Huijing, were not the advocates of silent illumination but they seem to fit in doctrinally and practically with everyone else.

Temicco said:
He is not explicitly commenting on sitting meditation here.

Astus wrote:
The fifth paramita is mediation.

Temicco said:
Anyway, even if he had designated it as a gradual technique, I don't see how that would matter. It does not contradict my view whatsoever.

Astus wrote:
At the beginning of the Extensive Record of Baizhang a useful difference is made between the ignorant and the practitioner, or the beginner and the advanced disciple. And Chan is for the advanced practitioner.

"If you are speaking to a deaf worldling, you should just teach him to leave home, maintain discipline, practice meditation and develop wisdom. ... If one is speaking to an ascetic, the ascetic has already given his assent three times and his discipline is complete. ... To an ascetic one must explain the defilement in pure things - you should tell him to detach from all things, existence, non-existent, or whatever, to detach from all cultivation and experience, and even to detach from detachment.
While in the course of asceticism, one strips away influences of habit. If an ascetic cannot get rid of the diseases of greed and aversion, he too is called a deaf worldling; still he must be taught to practice meditation and cultivate wisdom."
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 29-30)

Later he also states (p 35): "If you fast and control yourself, practice meditation and cultivate wisdom, these are afflicted roots of goodness."


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 15th, 2018 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Temicco said:
Which instructions, specifically? Do you mean e.g. the Lengqie shizi ji?

Astus wrote:
I mean the works like the Ru dao an xin yao fangbian famen 入道安心要方便法門, Xiu xin yao lun 修心要論, Dasheng wu fangbian 大乘五方便, Yuan ming lun 圓明論, and Guanxin lun 觀心論.

Temicco said:
what about the Caodong?

Astus wrote:
It was a short lived project that eventually incorporated the same kanhua path. On the other hand, nianfo, and especially name recitation, has been a popular practice in Chan communities, and it still is, but often neglected by Westerners.

Temicco said:
I think the idea of zuochan being non-essential is appropriate, but the idea of it being marginal such that it merits complete de-emphasis goes a bit too far.

Astus wrote:
It depends on who you read. Those who emphasised sudden enlightenment had to relegate meditation to the gradual techniques.

"[The teaching that one can] cultivate the six perfections and the myriad practices in order to achieve Buddhahood—this is the progressive [approach to Buddhahood]. Since beginningless time, there has never been a Buddha [who achieved that state] progressively. Just be enlightened to the One Mind and there will not be the slightest dharma that can be attained—this is the true Buddha."
(Huangbo: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 14)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 15th, 2018 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Temicco said:
but they show quite clearly that the idea that "zen masters like Huangbo and Yunmen, Wumen, Bodhidharma, never taught nor sat seated meditation to realize true nature" is not the case.

Astus wrote:
But what is lacking are the Tang era instructions by the ancestors of the so called five schools (note: there are some attributed to the putative Northern School). On the other hand, moving to Song times, there is kanhua chan as the favoured method, and it remained such down to this day.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, October 14th, 2018 at 4:07 PM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Temicco said:
Ehu Dayi's Zuochan Ming ("Inscription on Sitting Meditation")
Foxin Bencai's Zuochan yi ("Guidelines for Sitting Meditation")
Changlu Zongze's Zuochan yi ("Guidelines for Sitting Meditation")

Astus wrote:
Those are works from the 12th and 14th centuries, plus they are rather short, more like reminders than manuals. The rest you mention are not teachings on seated meditation, but brief references to it, showing the marginal nature of the matter.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, October 14th, 2018 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Foxxy said:
Is this true?

Meido said:
Almost certainly not. But Zen does not rely upon zazen or any other specific practice.

Astus wrote:
It should be perhaps added that meditation is one of the many standard practices in a monastery, just like chanting and studying sutras, various rituals, and upholding the precepts. Did the teachers of past follow the Vinaya? Did they recite scriptures and dharanis? Of course. But none of the common practices themselves make Zen, nor do they qualify it, and that's why they are not discussed, nor is there a Zen version of those.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, October 13th, 2018 at 6:42 PM
Title: Re: Did zen masters teach seated meditation?
Content:
Foxxy said:
Hi, I was talking to a friend today and I was surprised to find out that zen masters like Huangbo and Yunmen, Wumen, Bodhidharma, never taught nor sat seated meditation to realize true nature.  Is this true? I always assumed that zen and meditation were inseparable.

Astus wrote:
Although it is common to relate Zen and dhyana, that is merely an etymological connection. The central theme of Zen is to see the nature of mind and become buddha through that, not through various gradual techniques. It was Dogen, in 13th century Japan, who equated actual seated meditation with enlightenment, however, it's important to note that he did not posit zazen as a way toward a goal, but as the goal itself, plus he was against the idea of seeing nature (kensho) as something to be realised.

One day the Councilor Wang visited the master. When he met the master in front of the Monks’ Hall, he asked, “Do the monks of this monastery read the sutras?”
“No, they don’t read sutras,” said the master.
“Then do they learn meditation?” asked the councilor.
“No, they don’t learn meditation,” answered the master.
“If they neither read sutras nor learn meditation, what in the world are they doing?” asked the councilor.
“All I do is make them become buddhas and patriarchs,” said the master.
The councilor said, “‘Though gold dust is valuable, in the eyes it causes cataracts.’”
“I always used to think you were just a common fellow,” said the master.
(Record of Linji, p 38, tr Sasaki)

Q: What is dhyana and what is contemplation? 
A: The non-arising of a single thought is dhyana. The original nature is your increate Mind. Contemplation in samadhi happens when opposites and external objects do not cause a single thought to arise.
...
Q: Does he who practices stilling the mind do it only while sitting in meditation? 
A: The practice of stilling the mind means not only doing it while sitting, but also while walking, standing or lying down and, uninterruptedly, during all other actions at all times. This is referred to as truly abiding in permanence.
(Treatise On Entering The Tao of Sudden Enlightenment, tr Lok To)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 9th, 2018 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Are Buddhas formless or form?
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
Um, why would you want to even forget the sensory realms and mind? That sounds to me like escaping the outer and inner worlds dude, and again, does that mean they ( buddhas ) are without mind and sensory perceptions , which sounds to me personally like a person that is dead and unconscious.

Astus wrote:
Being buddha means freedom from identification. As long as there is something pointed at to be the buddha, that is just ordinary deluded perception, where one keeps grasping at appearances and generating dissatisfaction. Let me quote this entertaining and educational story from the Vimalakirti Sutra (ch 3, BDK ed, p 95-96):

The Buddha told Ānanda, “You go inquire about Vimalakīrti’s illness.” 
Ānanda addressed the Buddha, “World-honored One, I dare not accept your instruction to go inquire about his illness. Why? I remember once in the past, the World-honored One had a slight illness requiring cow’s milk [as medicine]. I took my bowl and proceeded to the gateway of a great brahman home.
“While I was standing there Vimalakīrti came and said to me, ‘O Ānanda, why are you standing here with your bowl so early in the morning?’ 
“I said, ‘O retired scholar, the World-honored One has a slight illness requiring cow’s milk, and so I have come here.’ 
“Vimalakīrti said, ‘Stop, stop, Ānanda! Do not speak thus. The Tathāgata’s body is the essence of vajra. [In it] the evils are already eradicated and the host of goods universally assembled. What illness could it have, what vexation could there be?
“‘Go silently, Ānanda—do not revile the Tathāgata, and do not let anyone else hear such coarse talk. Do not allow the gods of awesome power and virtue and the bodhisattvas who have come from pure lands in other directions to hear these words.
“‘Ānanda, even a small degree of blessings (i.e., merit) allows the wheelturning sage king (cakravartin) to be without illness—how could the immeasurable blessings of the Tathāgata fail to exceed his in every regard?!
“‘Go, Ānanda—do not make us experience this shame. If brahmans in the heterodox paths hear this, they will think, “Who is this teacher, who is unable to save himself from illness but would save others of their ills?” Sir, go in secret haste and do not let anyone hear this.
“‘You should understand, Ānanda, the bodies of the Tathāgatas are bodies of the Dharma, not bodies of longing. The Buddha is the World-honored One, who has transcended the triple world. The Buddha’s body is without flaws, the flaws having been extinguished. The Buddha’s body is unconditioned and does not fit the [conventional] analytic categories. A body such as this—how could it be ill, how could it be vexed?’
“At the time, World-honored One, I was really ashamed that I might have mistakenly heard what the Buddha had said in spite of being so close.
“‘I then heard a voice from space saying, ‘Ānanda, it is as the retired scholar has said. It is just that the Buddha has appeared in this evil age of the five corruptions and manifests this Dharma to emancipate sentient beings. Go, Ānanda. Take the milk without shame.’
“World-honored One, the eloquence of Vimalakīrti’s wisdom is like this. Therefore, I cannot accept [your instruction] to go inquire about his illness.”


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 9th, 2018 at 7:12 PM
Title: Re: Are Buddhas formless or form?
Content:
Astus wrote:
A monk asked Zen master Guizong, “What is Buddha?”
Guizong said, “When I tell you it becomes something else.”
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 370)

"Those who have conceptions of the Buddha,
Who, beyond conception, is unbounded,
Are blinded by those very concepts;
They do not behold the Tathagata.
The nature of the Tathagata
Is the nature of this world of beings.
The Tathagata is without intrinsic being;
This world of beings is without intrinsic being."
(Nagarjuna: MMK 22.15-16, tr Padmakara)

"Jetsun Mila's position regarding primordial wisdom. He said this unfabricated awareness is beyond words and conceptual thoughts such as existence or non-existence, eternalism or nihilism, and so forth. It will not be contradicted whatever name is used to express it. Primordial wisdom is also like this. Those who would be expected to be scholars— even if they asked the Buddha himself—I don't think he would say one way or the other. Dharmakaya is beyond conception, unborn, free from elaborations."
(Gampopa: JOoL, p 286, tr Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen Rinpoche)

"Space and the Dharma body are without any dissimilar characteristics (lit., “characteristics of differentiation”). The Buddhas and sentient beings are without any dissimilar characteristics, samsara and nirvana are without any dissimilar characteristics, and the afflictions and bodhi are without any dissimilar characteristics.
To transcend all characteristics is to be a Buddha. Ordinary people grasp at [their sensory] realms, while religious persons grasp at the mind. For the mind and the realms to both be forgotten is the True Dharma. To forget the realms is relatively easy, but to forget the mind is extremely di‡cult. People do not dare to forget the mind, fearing that they will fall into the void (i.e., the emptiness of space) with nowhere to grab hold. They do not understand that the void is without void, that there is only one true Dharma body."
(Huangbo: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 21)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 8th, 2018 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: anti-"Hinayana" bias in Zen (and Mahayana in general)
Content:
JMGinPDX said:
puts me off when reading Zen texts in particular is the anti-Hinayana (e.g. Theravada) bias present in much of the literature.

Astus wrote:
Since Zen has never coexisted with Hinayana before the 20th century meeting in Western countries, this is all rather rhetorical. Plus Mahayana had almost no contact with Theravada in India, so equating Hinayana with Theravada is not completely correct, although calling it Sravakayana is accurate. In any case, having a Hinayana approach in Zen is not about actual schools, but about a certain mistaken interpretation of the teaching, where one clings to cessation and the idea of nirvana apart from samsara.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 4th, 2018 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Supramundane said:
could you elaborate

Astus wrote:
If the 'subtle mental body' refers to the mental aggregates, then an arhat must still be attached to the aggregates, hence that person cannot actually be called an arhat. But if it is something beyond the aggregates, then there are actually six aggregates. So, in either case, the idea that an arhat is stuck in a subtle mental body contradicts either the definition of arhatship or the doctrine of the five aggregates, unless there is somehow a third option.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, October 4th, 2018 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
on account of a latent ignorance, acquire and exist in a subtle mental body brought about by their former untainted karma.

Astus wrote:
Are arhats still attached to consciousness? If so, they are not free from samsara, and not really arhats. If not, then one has to propose a 'subtle mental body' apart from the five aggregates.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 2nd, 2018 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
They did not eliminate all traces and the knowledge obscuration, therefore they have not eliminated all causes.  Ergo, they have causes which sustain their continuum’s.

Astus wrote:
Are arhats still attached to their aggregates? Are they still in samsara? If not, what continuum is outside the three realms?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, October 2nd, 2018 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Ignorance is a cause of defiled body and mind. Aspirations and merit are the cause of a Buddhas body and mind.  Those causes are limitless therefore the series never ceases.

Astus wrote:
Arhats eliminated ignorance, but lack aspirations and merit, hence no cause for continuation.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 1st, 2018 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
since these arhats will not arise from this samadhi of cessation without intervention, their samadhi is for all intents and purposes, permanent (but not eternal).

Astus wrote:
Proposing a permanent mind is the very opposite of the doctrine of impermanent composites. But if it is interrupted, it is not permanent, nor is it the type of arhat that does not switch to the bodhisattva path.

Malcolm said:
The nonabiding nirvana of a buddha means that the continuum of a buddha never ceases, all that ceases for them is the two obscurations.

Astus wrote:
What is the cause of body and mind if not ignorance?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 1st, 2018 at 5:48 PM
Title: Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:
Content:
bokki said:
the shit stick, or dry turd...what about that?

Astus wrote:
If you check Yunmen's sayings (Urs App's translation was reprinted this year by Shambhala), it appears that the text uses 'shit' for conceptualisation (§41, §53, §175, §271), while 'dried shit' (§71, §144, §226, §236) is for teaching.

Someone asked, “What is Shakyamuni’s body?”
The Master said, “A dry piece of shit.”
(Yunmen's sayings, §85; T47n1988p550b14-15)

This becomes quite tame then, as it practically repeats the age old saying that the (real) body of the Buddha is the Dharma.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 1st, 2018 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question:
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
saying this in a Western ... culture is completely different than saying it in a traditional Buddhist culture

Astus wrote:
That. At the same time, a large part of Chan literature lost its meaning in China after a hundred or so years, not to mention outside China, as it relies heavily on Chinese culture and language. So the interesting part is how the literature of the past was then turned into practice by Dahui. Consequently we can either play word association, or just project whatever is imagined to be the "true meaning".

bokki said:
Yun Men Master, Guo Gu Roshi, a simple question: a student of the way asked yunmen, “what is buddha?”
yunmen replied, “dried shitstick.”

Astus wrote:
Here's one linguistic FYI from the introduction of The Letters of Chan Master Dahui Pujue (p24): dried turd (ganshijue 乾屎橛; literally, “dried shit in the shape of a short wooden peg,” but sometimes misunderstood as “shitscraping spatula”)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 24th, 2018 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: Gil Fronsdal - The Bodhisattva and the Arhat: Walking Together Hand-in-Hand
Content:
Astus wrote:
"Beyond the effect of arhathood, not a single atom or a single dharma of surplus remains — how much less could the truth of samyaksaṃbodhi remain?"
(Arakan by Dogen, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 275)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 23rd, 2018 at 6:10 PM
Title: Re: The Decline and Fall of Chinese Buddhism
Content:
Astus wrote:
Buddhism in China, like practically everywhere else, has always been bound to the political sphere. Albert Welter himself has a nice work on the topic: http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195175219.001.0001/acprof-9780195175219.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 21st, 2018 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms
Content:
Wayfarer said:
How could he visit 'Sukhavati heaven' in a reasonable time-frame - like, a few months, or a year maybe? Any tips?

Astus wrote:
I have already recommended one way to do that https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=465589#p465589.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, September 21st, 2018 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I'm responding to the OP, not 'laying down a law'.

Astus wrote:
What should not be aspired to? Travelling to heavens/buddha-fields, talking to highly realised beings, or clarifying doubts? It is said that it worked for Asanga.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 20th, 2018 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I was thinking more of the principle of 'abandoning hope of fruition'.

Astus wrote:
But that is a hope one should not abandon until the fruition is right in one's hands. Without intention there is no action, without action there is no result.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 20th, 2018 at 2:47 PM
Title: Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Wanting to get there will never get you there.

Astus wrote:
Virya-paramita is quite essential.

"If one fails to practice vigor, then one will not succeed in bringing forth dhyāna  absorption. If one does not bring forth dhyāna absorption, then one  cannot  even  succeed  in  being  reborn  in  the  domain  of  a  Brahma  Heaven king. How much the less might one hope to gain realization  of the path to buddhahood?"
(Nagarjuna: http://www.kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/N6P_excerpts/N6P_X-Bk4_X-10.pdf, p 6)

"If one exhorts oneself intensely and labors at it diligently,
He may burrow into the ground and be able to reach a spring.
The case with vigor is just the same as this.
There is nothing sought which will not then be gained.
If one is able to accord with Dharma in practicing the Path,
Whoever then is vigorous and thus refrains from indolence
Will definitely succeed in garnering innumerable fruits
And such rewards as these will then never be lost."
(Nagarjuna: The Perfection of Vigor, p 7-8)

Also look into the concept of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83vega.

"As if struck by a sword, as if his head were on fire, a monk should live the wandering life — mindful — for the abandoning of sensual passion."
(That 1.39, tr Thanissaro)

"Just as one whose clothes or head had caught fire would put forth extraordinary desire, effort, zeal, enthusiasm, indefatigability, mindfulness, and clear comprehension to extinguish [the fire on] his clothes or head, so that bhikkhu should put forth extraordinary desire, effort, zeal, enthusiasm, indefatigability, mindfulness, and clear comprehension to abandon those bad unwholesome qualities."
(AN 6.20, tr Bodhi)

"Short is the life span of human beings,
The good man should disdain it.
One should live like one with head aflame:
There is no avoiding Death's arrival."
(SN 4.9, tr Bodhi)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 19th, 2018 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Asanga’s Mahayanasamgraha Full English Translation December 2018
Content:
Seeker12 said:
first complete English translation of Asanga's Mahayanasamgraha

Astus wrote:
That has been available in English for a while now. See the BDK edition for instance: http://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_Beta_T1593_SummaryoftheGreatVehicle_2003.pdf?file=1&type=node&id=475.

Seeker12 said:
the most important and comprehensive Indian Yogacara text

Astus wrote:
That would be the Yogacarabhumisastra, translated to English only partially.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 17th, 2018 at 2:24 PM
Title: Re: Four Noble Truths as a list of landmarks.
Content:
Viach said:
the FNT is more like a list of successive landmarks(so that you do not get lost) than a set of two pairs of logical statements

Astus wrote:
The so called landmarks are the stages of realisation: stream-entrant, once returner, non-returner, and arhat. All four stages require the contemplation of all four truths.

Viach said:
Also other buddhist lists are the same lists of landmarks: the Four Seals, the Twelve Nidanas, the Noble Eightfold Path, 37 Factors of Enlightenment, etc.

Astus wrote:
Not really. Although Vasubandhu did relate the 37 factors to the 5 paths, that is not the general interpretation, and it looks somewhat forced and tentative.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 17th, 2018 at 2:10 PM
Title: Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
Is there any methods that allows one to travel to the heavens ( Tusita’s inner courts ) or sukhavati without waiting for another 70-80 years before death?

Astus wrote:
Of course there are. Check out the http://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_Pratyutpanna_Surangama_1998_0.pdf?file=1&type=node&id=463.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 15th, 2018 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'
Content:
Astus wrote:
The current issue of the 'migrants' looks very much like the same old racist and antisemitic fear mongering. It is unfortunate if the Dalai Lama has little understanding of what slogans like 'X-land belongs to X-people' means to the majority.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 13th, 2018 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Signs from the Dakinis?
Content:
Void said:
What are possible so-called "signs from the dakinis", which seem to indicate significant training progress in Mahamudra (and most likely also in Dzogchen)?
Are there quotes in Mahamudra or Dzogchen literature which describe those?

Astus wrote:
'At this stage the meditator will acquire some power of supernormal cognition and will receive prophetic directions from his yidam and dakini. ... If the meditator has failed to acquire the spiritual power capable of producing both beneficial and harmful effects, has failed to gain supernormal cognition, and has also failed to receive any prophetic directions from the dakinis despite the fact that he has realized the great level of one flavor, then this condition might well be the consequence of his having violated the sacred bond or having been affected by a close associate who has abandoned his faith.'
(Mahamudra: the Moonlight, p 397-398)

'"Prophetic directions from the dakinis" refers to the protective role of the dakinis. Regarded as the custodians of the secret Supreme Yoga, the dakinis have been looked upon by Buddhist mystics as the protectors from forces of destruction and unscrupulous profaning.'
(n 208, p 465)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 12th, 2018 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Caodong vs. Soto
Content:
PeterC said:
If I remember correctly, it was only after studying in Japan that he started teaching, and before going to Japan he had already spent a lot of time in retreat after receiving yinke.

Astus wrote:
1961 - six years solitary retreat
1969 - six years in Japan, obtains PhD at Rissho University
1975 - goes to the US to teach
1976 - Dongchu gives Caodong transmission
1978 - Lingyuan gives Linji transmission

( http://www.dharmadrum.org/content/about/about2.aspx?sn=44, http://old.shengyen.org/e_content/content/about/about_01_2.aspx?PageID=2 )

PeterC said:
innovations in his teaching

Astus wrote:
See: http://chinesebuddhiststudies.org/previous_issues/chbj2301Jimmy%20Yu%203-38.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 4:18 PM
Title: Re: Caodong vs. Soto
Content:
falcon said:
The be all end all to practicing Soto Zen means to study what Dogen and Keizan taught right?

Astus wrote:
There is nearly 800 years of history between Dogen and today, so there is actually quite a lot one could study. Taking a practical approach is another matter, and it is more about participating in the temple (or Zen centre in the West) activities and following the guidance of a teacher.

falcon said:
The rest over the years from 13th century to now is almost irreverent no? Because not much has changed to the essential points?

Astus wrote:
The very idea that one should study the works of Dogen is from the 17th-18th century reformation of Soto, just like a good number of other things that today qualify this school.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 2:06 AM
Title: Re: Caodong vs. Soto
Content:
falcon said:
differences between the China practice of Caodong and the Japanese practice of Soto?

Astus wrote:
Do you mean now or in the early 13th century? If now, then Chinese Buddhism is fairly uniform, and lineages have only nominal meaning. If in the 13th century, then there are some studies on the matter (by Steven Heine, William M. Bodiford, Carl Bielefeldt, etc.) of how Dogen transformed what was in China, and then there were further changes over the centuries within Soto.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 6th, 2018 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
Have to sacrifice the enjoyments and the luxuries of the gods to reach the deathless state, but then in the deathless state I don’t even know if they party or have fun.

Astus wrote:
You should familiarise yourself with the story of the Buddha's half-brother Nanda, about whom it was said: "He's leading the holy life for the sake of nymphs. The Blessed One is his guarantor for getting 500 dove-footed nymphs." See in the https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.3.02.than.html.

There is also the teaching from the Sakya school called http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/sachen-kunga-nyingpo/parting-four-attachments:

“If you are attached to this life, you are not a true spiritual practitioner;
If you are attached to saṃsāra, you have no renunciation;
If you are attached to your own self-interest, you have no bodhicitta;
If there is grasping, you do not have the View.”

For more on that see this http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/jetsun-drakpa-gyaltsen/parting-four-attachments and/or this http://hhsakyatrizin.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Parting-from-the-4-Attachments.pdf.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
Why wouldn’t we strive to become a god then, and also accumulate merit to sustain our next rebirth in a good realm...

Astus wrote:
That is what everyone does normally in samsara, but hardly anyone attains. And even if heavenly birth is attained, it shall pass.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 2:36 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
1) Is there any bliss , joy or enjoyment in enlightenment actually? If not, why do we aim for that?

Astus wrote:
"This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."
When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"
"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html )

To see how nirvana is bliss it is necessary to comprehend how samsara is pain. As the second noble truth states, from craving arises suffering. The object of craving is primarily something we see as pleasurable. That perception of enjoyment is the gratification (assāda), then the suffering ensuing is the danger (ādīnava), but there also a way out from it, i.e. the path, called the escape (nissarana). So there is a clear difference between how the ignorant and the wise experiences things, as you can see for yourself in the https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.nypo.html.

MatthewAngby said:
Do we become vegetable state beings in enlightenment , sitting tightly in blank space?

Astus wrote:
There is actually a realm of nothingness exactly for those who find such an existence desirable. That is still samsara. As long as there is a longing towards any state of being or non-being, for that long there is birth and pain.

"Bhikkhus, there are these two views: the view of being and the view of non-being. Any recluses or brahmans who rely on the view of being, adopt the view of being, accept the view of being, are opposed to the view of non-being. Any recluses or brahmans who rely on the view of non-being, adopt the view of non-being, accept the view of non-being, are opposed to the view of being.
Any recluses or brahmans who do not understand as they actually are the origin, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger and the escape in the case of these two views are affected by lust, affected by hate, affected by delusion, affected by craving, affected by clinging, without vision, given to favoring and opposing, and they delight in and enjoy proliferation. They are not freed from birth, aging and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair; they are not freed from suffering, I say."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.011.ntbb.html )

MatthewAngby said:
If everyone became buddhas and there is no more to liberate , can buddhas still do anything at all?

Astus wrote:
That is assuming buddhas to be just like common beings. They look like that only for common beings, who cannot comprehend anything else. But that is not the true nature of buddhas.

"Someone who tries to discern me in form
Or seek me in sound
Is practicing non-Buddhist methods
And will not discern the Tathāgata"
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 26)

MatthewAngby said:
Can Buddha perceive sentient beings and enviroments or pure lands? Or do they see nothing and sort of become blind? Can Buddha hear sounds and music? Do they enjoy music or do they become lifeless and emotionless when they hear it? Do buddhas have thoughts? If they don’t, then won’t it be like brain dead and like emotionless beings?

Astus wrote:
The problem is not with the senses or the sense objects, but with craving and attachment.

"the eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye, but whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. The ear is not the fetter of sounds... The nose is not the fetter of aromas... The tongue is not the fetter of flavors... The body is not the fetter of tactile sensations... The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect, but whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. There is an eye in the Blessed One. The Blessed One sees forms with the eye. There is no desire or passion in the Blessed One. The Blessed One is well-released in mind."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.191.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Shenphen Rinpoche on Reading Dzogchen Texts
Content:
pemachophel said:
Most of you in the West think that by reading dharma books, you will develop understanding of the dharma. While it is natural to read, you will only develop an intellectual understanding. Wisdom, however, must come from meditation. For example, you cannot understand the teachings of the Great Perfection, Dzogpa Chenpo or any of the secret mantrayana teachings through reading. In fact, if you read Dzogchen books, you are likely to harm your understanding when the real teachings are given to you.

Astus wrote:
On the other hand, reading the sutras not only teaches one the very words of the Buddha, but also grants one incalculable amount of merit. Also, reading the various treatises gives one correct intellectual understanding, that can shed light on the genuine meaning in a reasonable fashion, thus give it into the reader's hand to use the view for authentic insight and ultimate enlightenment.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 3rd, 2018 at 6:16 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
I take it as an expression of gratitude to all those who carried and passed on the Lamp.

Astus wrote:
If the lineage is not real, there was no passing on of any lamp, unless the nature of transmission is reinterpreted, like for instance saying that those who studied with Kusan Sunim can all be considered his heirs, or those who follow his particular style in teaching, or some other version.

Dan74 said:
I don't recall ANY teisho or Dharma talk who even mentioned literal interpretation of the lineage. So from where I stand it's a bit of a strawman you are fighting here.

Astus wrote:
It doesn't look like a straw man to me. Look at what is said by the following major institutions:

The official site of the Rinzai-Obaku school states:

"With Shakyamuni’s recognition of Mahakashyapa began the “direct transmission from master to disciple” that Zen emphasizes as the particular characteristic of its history as a tradition."
( http://zen.rinnou.net/whats_zen/history.html )

The Soto Zen Buddhist Association site informs everyone:

"Lineage is a very important aspect of Soto Zen. The appropriate and authentic transmission of the Soto Zen tradition from teacher to student occurs when a fully authorized teacher formally recognizes one of their students as ready to carry and teach the Soto Zen tradition. Transmission is marked by ceremony and is publicly communicated as a way to help establish the authority of a Zen teacher. The chain of transmission over time and multiple generations is called a “lineage.”"
( http://szba.org/lineage-identifications/ )

The Jogye Order's website teaches:

"The Dharma that the Buddha gave to the Venerable Kāśyapa through the mind-to-mind transmission like a lamplight so that it would not die out, has passed through many teachers and has been inherited up till today. These teachers are called the proper masters of the lineage or true masters of the lineage. Patriarchal Seon and Ganhwa Seon have cherished the tradition that has transmitted the Dharma that has given the seal of approval to the state of enlightenment and the pride in that distinctive enlightenment."
( http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020&wr_id=6 )

See also the introduction of the current patriarch of the Jogye order, Jinje seonsanim, http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=2030, and the account of his awakening:

"At this time the Master made Jinje sunim his Dharma successor and the 79th Patriarch of the lineage passed on through Master Huineng and Master Linji of China, one of the few intact lineages in the world. "
( http://www.jinje.kr/eng/01_master/03_3.php )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 3rd, 2018 at 4:33 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
they didn't take such a literal interpretation of many 'tenets of faith'.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean they did not think that the transmission from teacher to disciple actually happened in the past, as it is described in the many volumes of transmission records?

Dan74 said:
But in Zen, the point has always been to see it and then to pass on the Lamp, whoever gets it, sees Chaochou face to face, see the Buddha face to face. So fundamentally, it's never been obsessed with historical accuracy, AFAICT.

Astus wrote:
Dogen's view was rather strict - and that's what the 18th century https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms20.pdf of Soto relied on - regarding transmission. He wrote (Menju, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 3, p 211): "If even one ancestor, one master, or one disciple failed to give or to receive the face-to-face transmission they would not be the buddhas and the patriarchs." In the same text he criticises Jianfu Chenggu who claimed Dharma inheritance directly from Yunmen (partly because he was basically dissatisfied with the teachers of the era). Similar concerns regarding the truth and purity of the lineage emerged later in both China and Japan. At the same time, if it is fine to be flexible with lineage, would it be alright today if somebody claimed to be a direct heir of Yunmen? (Side note: a modern case of similar situation is that of Hsuan Hua who is said to be an heir of the long ceased https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guiyang_school.)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 3rd, 2018 at 4:04 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The fact that the understanding that is at its basis is real.

Astus wrote:
Whose understanding is it? Also, does it have to be given by another, or can someone arrive at it on one's own?

Wayfarer said:
I think the idea that something has to be literally transmitted is interpreting the idea a little too literally.

Astus wrote:
If there is a real understanding transmitted, how is that not something literal?

Wayfarer said:
Maybe re-phrase it as 'the historical veracity of the lineage records are not needed for any of that'. That appears to be the view taken by at least some of the organisations you link to above. Why not go with it?

Astus wrote:
If there is no need for historical veracity, would you accept someone as a legitimate teacher who made up his own lineage?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 3rd, 2018 at 3:15 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
what I don't get is what specifically do you object to.

Astus wrote:
Lineage, and its transmission, is based on the idea that it is an unbroken connection between today's living master going back to Shakyamuni Buddha. That is where the legitimacy of the transmission lies, that it is the seal of the buddha-mind. If there is no chain of ancestors going back to the Buddha, then there is no legitimacy, it is not the transmission of the buddha-mind.
That's why the topic, that in light of modern historical studies of Zen, the idea of an unbroken lineage does not hold up, therefore its basis of legitimacy has disappeared. What can then be pointed to that can uphold Zen's validity?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 3rd, 2018 at 2:44 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Well haven't you answered your own question, then?

Astus wrote:
How so? The Zen lineage is an East Asian thing, even the Tibetan idea works differently, so clearly lineage is not the only possible organising method in Buddhism, but at the same time it is quite central to Zen. The question is: if this central element of Zen is unfounded, what then?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 3rd, 2018 at 2:41 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
passel said:
If you keep looking for something called ‘lineage’ outside of all these other things you keep describing you will never find it. But that’s just basic Madhyamaka- I’m not really sure what this thread is even about

Astus wrote:
Here are some examples of what a lineage is:

https://kwanumzen.org/our-lineage/
http://londonzen.org/lineage/
http://www.ciolek.com/wwwvlpages/zenpages/haradayasutani.html
https://boundlesswayzen.org/our-lineage/ (this accepts the Indian patriarchs to be fabricated)
https://www.pacificzen.org/ancestors-relatives-and-welcome-guests/ (this one not only openly says that the lineage is fictional, but also intentionally added new names)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 3rd, 2018 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
Since master-to-student transmission is important in Zen, the very core of Zen

Astus wrote:
As the Zen lineage is historically not true, what is transmitted?

Dan74 said:
Do you have a better method in mind for achieving these aims?

Astus wrote:
There are numerous ways to pass on a tradition, to educate people, to measure the level of understanding of students, and to manage a community. Lineage is not needed for any of that.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, September 3rd, 2018 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
Yes, indeed lineage and community are different.

Astus wrote:
Since communities do not depend on it, what is the good about lineage?

Dan74 said:
Lineage, the way I see it, is an empowerment to lead a community, to foster and continue one in which these qualities, this functioning, live on.

Astus wrote:
Dharma transmission in Zen is about the passing on of enlightenment. Where does that include community management? Is it only buddhas who can lead communities? The Vinaya itself does not talk about the need for Dharma transmission to become an abbot.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 5:34 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Wayfarer said:
only one was enlightened, right? Yet they all heard the same thing.  So what's the difference between the one who got enlightened and those who didn't?

Astus wrote:
In one word: karma. Understanding is not automatically attained by learning, and realisation is not automatically attained by understanding. They are conditions, but there are other conditions as well that need to be met, hence the seven factors of enlightenment.

Wayfarer said:
the meaning has to be realised. That's why it's different to science.

Astus wrote:
Reading Fermat's last theorem and understanding it are not the same, then being able to prove it is again another matter.

Wayfarer said:
it's not in the least dependent on anything  other than your ability to follow those steps.

Astus wrote:
The Buddha taught the path. It's up to each person to follow it. How is that different?

Wayfarer said:
The result is the same for anyone who is capable of following the instructions.

Astus wrote:
That is the idea in Buddhism as well. Follow the path and attain liberation.

Wayfarer said:
But there's something else involved in Zen, which is the 'realisation of the way'. And that is 'first person'.

Astus wrote:
The difference between the realisation of following through a chemistry handbook and a Dharma handbook is that the end result of the former can be confirmed by others, but for the latter only the individual can confirm it. But if it is believed that a master can tell whether the disciple attained liberation - and that is a highly debatable point, also relevant to the topic of transmission - then both the scientific and the Buddhist path are objectively verifiable.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 4:18 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I think 'power control' is a rather cynical view, isn't it?  Is there only 'power' at stake? Isn't 'quality' intrinsic to it?

Astus wrote:
Power is connected to lineage, as it was created and used for that purpose. If there were an intrinsic quality there, and that quality is stated to be buddha-mind, then it would mean all patriarchs, past and present, are buddhas.

Wayfarer said:
The elusive nature of Zen realisation is intrinsic to Zen, isn't it? Its nature is such that literally can't be simply written down or specified.

Astus wrote:
It can be easily written down and specified, as it's actually been by people from Bodhidharma to Shengyan, although views can show differences, as it was delineated first by Guifeng Zongmi.

Wayfarer said:
I give you a formula for creating X, you repeat the steps in the formula and you get X.

Astus wrote:
That is what a path is. If you deny that there is a path, that is practically the negation of Buddhism.

Wayfarer said:
I added the bolds to note the emphasis on metaphor in such descriptions.

Astus wrote:
Calling it a seal and a lamp are the metaphors. The point is what they are metaphors of: the direct communication of buddhahood.

Wayfarer said:
The awakened mind of the master presses directly, as it were, on the mind of the disciple, thereby replicating itself.

Astus wrote:
As it were - that is not "as if it were", but just as it is, meaning perfect enlightenment is replicated perfectly.

Wayfarer said:
I wonder if you have read Bernard Faure and Stephen Heine's critical accounts of Asian Buddhist traditions? Particularly Faure's The Rhetoric of Immediacy?

Astus wrote:
Reducing Zen to mere rhetoric is another topic. For the current one about lineage the relevant sources are works like "The Northern School and the Formation of Early Chʻan Buddhism", "Seeing through Zen", "Fathering Your Father", "The Mystique of Transmission", "The Will to Orthodoxy", "Hongzhou School of Chan Buddhism", "How Zen Became Zen", "Monks, Rulers, and Literati", "Enlightenment in Dispute", "Leaving for the Rising Sun", etc.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 3:38 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
close teacher-student relationship, necessary training and realisation as well as a family spirit, all of which I find to be of immense value in Zen training.

Astus wrote:
That is about community and its organisation, something that you find all over Buddhism and practically any religion, not lineage.

Dan74 said:
As someone who is not part of a lineage (not transmitted or authorised in any way), I may be completely off-base.

Astus wrote:
But you can be a part of the community, so that shows well how lineage and community are two different matters.

Dan74 said:
a transmitted teacher

Astus wrote:
That is where lineage has a role, the nomination of a teacher, and how a teacher is perceived by others.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
The very concept of lineage is a bloody good idea

Astus wrote:
What do you find good about it?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 1st, 2018 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Jeff H said:
A teaching is given by the teacher and a subsequent understanding arises within the student. Isn't that a transmission?

Astus wrote:
It is a form of transmission, but not what is meant in Zen. In Zen it is about the direct transmission, so called "mind to mind", of buddhahood. Let's turn again to the https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/glossary/index.html:

https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/glossary/individual.html?key=seal_of_the_buddha_mind
"Buddha-mind (busshin 佛心) is the awakening (bodai 菩提, S. bodhi) that turns ordinary beings into buddhas. The Zen lineage is said to transmit Shakamuni's buddha-mind from master to disciple "without relying on scriptures" (furyū monji 不立文字). That wordless "mind to mind transmission" (ishin denshin 以心傳心) is likened to the kind of non-verbal communication that takes place when a carved seal (in 印), used in East Asia as a legally binding signature, is inked and pressed on a piece of paper. The awakened mind of the master presses directly, as it were, on the mind of the disciple, thereby replicating itself. A disciple whose understanding of the dharma is formally approved and documented by a master is also said to have received a "seal of approval" (inka 印可)."

https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/glossary/individual.html?key=dharma_lineage
"An unbroken line of dharma transmission that is traced back through many generations of teachers and disciples."

https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/glossary/individual.html?key=dharma_lamp
"A metaphorical expression, which likens the dharma (hō 法) to the "flame of a lamp" (tō 燈) which can be passed to another lamp (i.e. from master to disciple) and thus be kept burning forever. In the Zen tradition, the transmission of the formless, ineffable buddha mind (busshin 佛心) down through the lineage of ancestral teachers (soshi 祖師) is referred to metaphorically as "transmission of the flame" (dentō 傳燈)."


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 1st, 2018 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Wayfarer said:
not necessarily in need of external legitimation.  What is being 'handed over' or communicated, after all, is an understanding, a way of seeing, a realisation. Nothing material is handed from master to disciple.

Astus wrote:
Transmission (as confirmation) of enlightenment is exactly an external legitimisation, the very opposite of the idea taught in the sutras of confirming the truth of the Dharma for oneself.

Wayfarer said:
an institutional legitimacy which is used to distinguish the bona fides of genuine teachers to distinguish them from the self-appointed.

Astus wrote:
Quite far from it. Remember the monastic system where the most important authority, the power to ordain, is based on ordination-age. Similarly, older monks taught younger ones. The system of a special lineage was meant to elevate a select few above everyone else, an elite community who claimed to be above the rest.

Wayfarer said:
It's like a quality control mechanism.

Astus wrote:
Not quality, power control.

Wayfarer said:
the gist of the teaching is as elusive as Mahakasyapa's smile, isn't it?

Astus wrote:
How so?

Wayfarer said:
And I think to question whether the flower sermon is historically accurate is to miss its point.

Astus wrote:
The point is to elaborate on an event that is assumed to have actually happened. The only thing it talks of is affirming the transmission, but intentionally does not discuss the content.

Wayfarer said:
Think back to the original sermons - the Buddha and the wanderers who heard him. What were they actually given, apart from an understanding?

Astus wrote:
Not understanding but a teaching, that is practically a summary of the whole of the Dharma. Even the Buddha couldn't make others gain understanding, he could only talk of it. Note that only one of the five actually attained insight.

Wayfarer said:
But there still has to be some way of sorting genuine teachers from enthusiasts and hangers-on.

Astus wrote:
That seems to be a concern of today's Westerners and not the tradition, likely because of the general absence of the monastic community. Traditionally if one person disagreed with another's interpretation of the Dharma, or another's views in general, it resulted in a reasoned refutation of the other's doctrines, or they simply disregarded each other, and sometimes there were other types of unseemly attacks. But in general the harmony of the community is more important than whether one believes that Amitabha is a nirmanakaya or a sambhogakaya, just as you can see current institutions accommodating monks and nuns of various views and practices.

Wayfarer said:
And I'm sure the Mandarin bureaucracy would demand some kind of documentation if Buddhism was to be countenanced as a State religion (which it was).

Astus wrote:
That is a fairly positive image of a state that cares about the quality of religious education, or a supremely powerful and oppressive regime that pays attention to the details. However, that didn't really happen. First of all, Buddhism was only occasionally the favoured religion, but never the state religion. The main form of control the emperor used over Buddhism was the limitation of ordination, and it was the ordination certificates that actually mattered. The second important form of control was over the nomination of abbots that needed approval from the local landlord who was the main sponsor of the monastery. But as for what sort of Buddhist doctrine an individual monk follows, that is quite inconsequential, as long as it is not some sort of agitation against the status quo.

Wayfarer said:
So there's plenty of reasons to provide such a legimising account as the lineage records.

Astus wrote:
As you can see, there was no need for that, not from the perspective of the government, nor from the perspective of the people.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, September 1st, 2018 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
passel said:
But didn’t you say earlier in this thread that the only transmission is the teachings?

Astus wrote:
That was in response to the question of what should be the implications of the disappearance of the concept of lineage.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
passel said:
If ‘lineage’ or ‘transmission’ are hard to describe, ‘the teachings’ is just as hard.

Astus wrote:
The transmission, at least in Zen, is per definition indescribable and inconceivable. The teachings, however, are clearly within the realm of language.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Jeff H said:
there is a qualitative difference between reading Tsongkhapa and sitting at the feet of my teacher as she talks about his teaching.

Astus wrote:
The difference between a transmission apart and inseparable from the teachings lies in whether you can measure what a teacher says against what you find written in the works of Tsongkhapa. In other words, a teacher explains but does not own the tradition.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
This is basically your long-term quest to prove that teachers aren't as important in Zen as they are made out to be, Astus?

Astus wrote:
Not really. It is primarily about the very concept of lineage, and the implications that such a concept has. The role and qualities of a teacher is not the only thing that it involves.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Jeff H said:
implications for present day practitioners

Astus wrote:
That there is no transmission apart from the teachings.

Jeff H said:
if it could be proven that there is no direct line back to Shakyamuni.

Astus wrote:
First of all, what would need to be proven is that there is a line. Secondly, it's been made clear long ago that the Zen lineage going back to the Buddha is a fabrication.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 5:22 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
Or one may indeed be a pratyekabuddha, very unlikely but possible and legitimate and it restarts the chain.

Astus wrote:
A pratyekabuddha by definition cannot teach, nor has any connection with the Dharma. Someone who first turns the wheel is called a buddha. Since I have already mentioned him, let's look at Gyeongheo's story. First of all, he was a monk and he was able to study the scriptures (unlike monastics who were illiterate). That already puts him in the category of people who maintain a higher level of moral discipline and has an advanced level of knowledge of the Dharma. He also did intensive practice to attain realisation. (N.B. all these qualities are also true for Shenxiu in the Platform Sutra) And what actually made him the reviver of Seon was his work in teaching and organising.

Dan74 said:
To me, it stands to reason that one is more likely to find depth of practice and mastery of teaching methods within a lineage than outside.

Astus wrote:
Lineage does not mean training. For instance, Ven. Shengyan received Dharma transmissions not because he studied under Dongchu and Lingyuan but as a recognition of the work he's been doing.

Dan74 said:
My wife is a potter, and not a day goes by that she doesn't feel grateful to her teacher who imparted to her so many secrets and tricks of the trade that could only be discovered over many generations, ie lineage.

Astus wrote:
Lineage is not about learning, it is a quite different matter. Again, think of the Platform Sutra's (fictional, not historical, but still important) story about Shenxiu and Huineng. Shenxiu was the good disciple, Huineng an illiterate layman who spent very little time there. Even though Shenxiu was proficient in the three trainings, but Huineng was the true embodiment of the real teaching, a living buddha, and that's what the transmission signified.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 3:18 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Jeff H said:
Where lineage seems to me to be important is in presenting a holistic model, as opposed to DIY Buddhists who try to cobble together a personal practice based on cherry picking bits and pieces from very different schools. In this sense a lineage arises from a collection of similarly inclined and trained masters over time who have evolved a cohesive system of study/practice that can be shown to produce positive results for students who apply it holistically.

Astus wrote:
That's rather the opposite of what lineage stands for in Zen. A cohesive and systematically set up package of doctrines is what's called jiao/kyo (教) and in Zen it is put in opposition to chan/zen (禪), although there have also been those who talked of a harmony or unity between them, but that just shows how separate they are viewed (note the slogan: separate transmission outside doctrine jiao wai bie chuan 教外別傳). See also the quote https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=463178#p463178 of this topic.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 2:48 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
If there is such a great master from 80 years ago and your teacher studied under his student for 20 years, who in his turn studied under the master for a long time, yes, this is meaningful.

Astus wrote:
The great master from 80 years ago was great because of his reputation in his life, or a reputation spread by those claiming to be his heirs. There are a good number of possibilities of how someone is eventually viewed as a great master. When one can be called great because of his own merits, the spiritual sons and grandsons may just use his renown to seem great - and that is usually the purpose of calling someone one's ancestor, especially when what was supposedly passed on is not a particular doctrine, so it's not like being the propagator of a unique meditation technique or a distinctive explanation of the Dharma.

Dan74 said:
Whether or not the master's lineage is unbroken matters little.

Astus wrote:
Broken lineage means that at one point a link had no teacher, no ancestor. If it does not matter whether the chain is continuous, then it does not matter at all, since it is not functional any more in connecting the present with the past.

Dan74 said:
It is simply that there are so many subtleties to the Dharma and even more to teaching it, that discovering them without a proper guide is extremely unlikely. Lineage is some partial guarantee of such a guide.

Astus wrote:
Being a member of a lineage is not the same as extensive learning and in depth practice. They may match, but there is no causal connection. What qualifies someone to be a guide is usually just a question of where the student is.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Sentient Light said:
I think a lot of academics say the patriarchs' lineage is not historically backed, because they are working with the idea that "lineage" refers to something like the Rule of Two with the Sith.

Astus wrote:
It's not an academic invention, rather it is how the tradition presents itself, and how it is believed to be by most (Western) adherents.

Sentient Light said:
What are we calling authentic exactly?

Astus wrote:
What you described is about how outstanding individuals are incorporated into quasi-historical representations. It lacks the point where such lineages serve as the basis of strengthening one's own agenda, i.e. the very reason that a lineage is set up, as that is how it gains relevance in the present.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Dan74 said:
But they are still meaningful (to me).

Astus wrote:
But what is that meaning? A degree from an accredited educational institution means something because there is some level of quality control. But I guess you would not really find a degree trustworthy if it had been bought online from some no-name virtual university. There isn't really any officially appointed committee that reviews the qualifications of a teacher and to whom he may then nominate as an heir, so comparing dharma-transmission with a medical degree only works if that degree signifies a training given by a single individual and then printed on his home computer.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
KeithA said:
In a mundane sense, the latter.

Astus wrote:
Then it seems you are on the same page as Ven. Shengyan was:

"There may be inaccuracies in the history, but there need be no doubt about the reality of the transmission. I know very well that I had a Shih-fu, and that my Shih-fu likewise had a Shih-fu. From Sakyamuni Buddha on, throughout the history of Buddhism in India, great emphasis was placed on the transmission between a Master and a disciple. ... The names of the people in the line of transmission may not be correct, and the history of the lineage may also be confused by the appearance of monks with the same name at different times and in different places. I do not know the name of the grandfather of my grandfather, but I would never doubt that my grandfather had a grandfather."
( http://www.chancenter.org/chanctr/ddp/channews/12-1996.html )

However, that interpretation does not fit how lineages were created, as there are not simply administrative errors in the records, but rather they were produced on the tip of the quill of the authors those texts. To give a modern example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyeongheo is the father of modern Korean Zen, but he not only had never received transmission in person, he didn't have a Zen teacher either, nevertheless, there is apparently a lineage that was created for him by the subsequent generation.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 30th, 2018 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
KeithA said:
My belief is that the Buddha's Seal has been transmitted. We just don't have an accurate list of human beings to portray that.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean that you believe it was not transmitted by humans? Or it was transmitted by humans, but it is somehow not known by whom exactly?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 30th, 2018 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
seeker242 said:
If "authentic" means "can be historically traced back 2,000+ years", no I don't think that's required.

Astus wrote:
Then who is authentic, without a lineage?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 30th, 2018 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
KeithA said:
if a proposed lineage is easily disproved by basic historical research, it doesn't change my practice. ... No teacher = no Zen. The lock can't be opened without the key.

Astus wrote:
If the lineage is untrue, who qualifies as a Zen teacher?

KeithA said:
There are certainly lineages that go far enough back to be useful.

Astus wrote:
What is far enough? A century, two centuries, or five? Or perhaps it's the number of generations, like three or thirteen? In any case, the Zen lineage gains its meaning from going all the way back to Shakyamuni. Without that it's not the transmission of the Buddha's seal.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 30th, 2018 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
seeker242 said:
the real problem in that scenario is not the lack of confirmation, but the requirement of "nobility".

Astus wrote:
So are you basically saying, what I assume KeithA meant as well, that there is no need for lineage in Zen?

seeker242 said:
Even without a master, that is still what is left to call "zen".

Astus wrote:
Wouldn't you say that practising Zen requires an authentic, i.e. someone with a transmission, master?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 30th, 2018 at 2:52 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
passel said:
Three lineages, not one.

Astus wrote:
Primordial lineage - it's not actually a lineage, but rather renaming buddha-nature to look like the supposed content of transmission
Transmission lineage - without such a transmission being unbroken, how can it come down through the ages?
Organizational lineage - such a lineage holder is mainly a Tibetan idea


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 30th, 2018 at 2:33 PM
Title: Re: Zen without Lineage
Content:
seeker242 said:
That's almost like saying without any historical genealogy records of your family, that go back all the way to your first ancestors, you don't have one.

Astus wrote:
The birth of a human has definitive conditions, but not so the birth of a patriarch. So it is rather like claiming nobility and a castle with half a dozen villages by writing a story about how one's great-great-grandfather was knighted by the king of Estonia.

seeker242 said:
Seeing true nature and saving all beings with it.

Astus wrote:
Can you tell the true nature is seen without a master's confirmation?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 30th, 2018 at 3:03 AM
Title: Zen without Lineage
Content:
Astus wrote:
"One thing that clergy affiliated with all the Zen denominations in Japan hold in common is the belief in a Zen lineage (Zenshū 禪宗) of dharma transmission said to have been founded by the Buddha Shakamuni, established in China by the Indian monk Bodaidaruma, and subsequently transmitted to Japan by numerous Japanese and Chinese monks."
( https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/glossary/individual.html?key=zen_school )

Historical studies of Zen, over nearly a hundred years, have shown in depth that the lineages of Zen were fabricated and re-fabricated from the beginning down to the modern era. So far I have not seen anyone addressing that from the Zen side. But without a historical lineage what is the "separate transmission"? Without lineage all the "transmission of lamp" collections are mere literary works. Without lineage there is no family to be a member of. Without lineage what is left to call Zen?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Information about Boddhisatvas and other Buddhist teachings
Content:
Trilobyte said:
can you all recommend any resources that are not too confusing to read?

Astus wrote:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ancientsgrfx.pdf is a useful summary.

Other works of possible interest:

http://chancenter.org/cmc/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/ChanPracticeandFaith.pdf
http://chancenter.org/cmc/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/The-Bodhisattva-Precepts.pdf

http://www.fgsitc.org/ghosts-and-the-afterlife/
http://www.fgsitc.org/the-buddhist-perspective-on-the-supernatural/
http://www.fgsitc.org/on-becoming-a-bodhisattva/
http://www.fgsitc.org/the-eighteen-arhats/
http://www.fgsitc.org/the-wheel-of-rebirth/

You can also go through what Wikipedia offers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manjushri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%A3itigarbha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalokite%C5%9Bvara
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samantabhadra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahasthamaprapta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80k%C4%81%C5%9Bagarbha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrapani
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanda_%28Buddhism%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acala
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahakala
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamantaka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yama_%28Buddhism%29


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: Post-awakening cultivation in Zen
Content:
Astus wrote:
The works of Guifeng Zongmi are from the Tang era, and he was the proponent of sudden awakening followed by gradual cultivation. He also writes that the Hongzhou school taught sudden awakening and sudden cultivation. That double suddenness is there in the few teachings of Mazu, the whole of Huangbo, and Dazhu Huihai, all from the Tang times. The extensive record of Baizhang is a little less subitist, while the Platform Sutra, and the teachings of the Oxhead and Baotang schools are quite on the sudden side of cultivation.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Kenshō the first Bhumi?
Content:
Meido said:
I meant they are fulfilled within the overall path.

Astus wrote:
I asked because of what is found in Huangbo's teachings that those who do not find a teacher to instruct them in the sudden path should follow the gradual Majayana of the sutras. It is also said there that the result of three uncountable kalpas and sudden awakening is the same buddhahood. But if such subitism is not accepted, there is only the gradual bodhisattva way.

Meido said:
It's fine to describe this as a different or uncommon approach. Torei describing this:... None of this applies to our patriarchal school, which surpasses expedient means. ...

Astus wrote:
But there are all sorts of expedient means in Rinzai Zen, aren't there? On the other hand, every genuine practitioner strives for full awakening, no matter the school. What I gather from what you write is that it's OK to call Zen an instance of Mahayana that conforms to the general progressive way of the bodhisattva path, whereby kensho can be equated with the attainment of faith, as taught by Jinul.

Meido said:
What is the view of kensho?

Astus wrote:
It is supposed to be the cessasation of views, wouldn't you agree?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: Kenshō the first Bhumi?
Content:
Meido said:
Zen considers the paramitas to be wholly fulfilled within the path of recognizing one's nature and then, taking that as the foundation of subsequent practice, dissolving habitual delusion along the path of embodying seamless realization.

Astus wrote:
Do you mean that the paramitas are fulfilled at seeing the nature, or after eliminating all afflictions at the end of subsequent practice? The former does not make sense to me, while the latter option seems to mean that Zen proposes a parallel path, or maybe the same path in a different format.

Meido said:
Who cares about gradual vs. sudden at that point?

Astus wrote:
It is a matter that concerns the status of Zen in relation to the other schools and the general Mahayana teachings. If it does not offer a method more efficient than others, it is simply a Chinese, and then a Japanese, presentation of Mahayana, and not a separate path (at least in terms of substance).

Meido said:
the fulfillment of vipashyana and shamatha in non-departure from the seamless upwelling of what is recognized in kensho.

Astus wrote:
Usually the unique views of a school has their role in vipasyana, where one has to experientially validate them. So if there is such a samadhi in Zen, what is the view that is confirmed there?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Kenshō the first Bhumi?
Content:
Meido said:
Of course you can. The Rinzai Zen path for one is extremely well defined.

Astus wrote:
Could you be more specific here please? I mean, the descriptions of the path are like the Visuddhimagga, Yogacarabhumisastra, Abhisamayalamkara, or the various lamrim texts. The closest to those I know of are the works of Zongmi and Yongming, but even those are quite sketchy, relatively speaking.

Meido said:
Crucial details to actualize the path are not found in popular books, however, and are largely clarified through oral instruction.

Astus wrote:
If it is not clearly delineated how ignorance is turned into wisdom, how could they qualify for explaining the path?

Meido said:
I read it rather to say that common cultivation of external practices must always fall short lacking seeing the nature, so it seems I agree with Krodha's take.

Astus wrote:
If so, how is there any difference between the gradual path of the paramitas and Zen?

Meido said:
If one does not know what is actually meant by that samadhi, then even with kensho the path is still barely begun in terms of actualization.

Astus wrote:
Is there a definition of that samadhi, that specifies it and points out how it is different from, for instance, the Surangama-samadhi?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Kenshō the first Bhumi?
Content:
krodha said:
The insight is what one does not lose, but the experiential equipoise resting in a direct knowledge of one’s nature does indeed come and go.

Astus wrote:
If there is an equipoise, that is a temporary state of mind, not the buddha-mind.

krodha said:
But equipoise in jñāna does indeed lapse back into normal vijñāna because the view is unstable due to habitual patterns of grasping and conceptual proliferation.

Astus wrote:
An arya bodhisattva from the first bhumi is free from samsara, and does not perceive anything as real, but it is taught that not even on the tenth bhumi can they perceive the dharmakaya. So, if one sees buddha-mind, one is a buddha.

krodha said:
Initial knowledge merely requires a recognition of the dharmatā of mind or phenomena. The equipoise that the knowledge results from is initially fragmented and unstable however.

Astus wrote:
That is fine for the gradual path of the paramitas, but not for the supreme buddha-vehicle, i.e. Zen.

krodha said:
However these are Zen teachers, and their description of the path is very much like those we find elsewhere, such as Dzogchen for example. The fluctuation between equipoise and post-equipoise is a common theme.

Astus wrote:
What you cannot find is any precise description of the path, like what you see in practically every other school. That's because Zen is per definition not gradualist. That doesn't mean teachers cannot employ methods meant for less capable people, hence Yangshan's remark about selling both gold and mouse turd.

krodha said:
a rare few may have that capacity, but not the vast majority

Astus wrote:
Zen was meant for the rare few only.

krodha said:
This is addressing those who have not yet known equipoise at all.

Astus wrote:
It explicitly says that cultivation of anything is the gradual path of the deluded, while seeing the nature eliminates defilements permanently. Without defilements what is there to practice?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 14th, 2018 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
What about the Lotus Sūtra, which appears to make the very audacious claim that there is no "pari" nirvāṇa, in it's Tathāgatāyuṣpramāṇaparivartaḥ Ch 15?

Astus wrote:
Yogacara teaches apratisthitanirvana for bodhisattvas, just like Madhyamaka. There is no cessation of anything, as there is nothing to cease.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 14th, 2018 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Kenshō the first Bhumi?
Content:
krodha said:
Realization and insight are always sudden and immediate

Astus wrote:
An unstable realisation is not realisation at all, only a passing feeling. Attaining a stage of the path means not losing it later.

krodha said:
but just as in other Buddhist systems, that knowledge is unstable and must be carefully cultivated from then on in order to eventually actualize buddhahood.

Astus wrote:
Knowledge does need actualisation, hence the process of learning, understanding, and cultivation. But then seeing nature would mean not the perception of buddha-mind, but merely the concept that mind is buddha.

krodha said:
Temicco shared some excerpts that demonstrate this

Astus wrote:
Clearly, there are various teachers with various teachings.

krodha said:
I found this quite interesting, especially given the much asserted “non-gradual” view of Zen.

Astus wrote:
Yangshan said:

"The roots of delusion are deep. They’re difficult to cut off and uproot. So [the Buddha] established expedient means to grab your attention. These are like showing yellow leaves to a crying child, who imagines they’re gold and thus stops crying. You act as though you’re in a shop where someone sells a hundred goods made from gold and jade, but you’re trying to weigh each item. So you say that Shitou has a real gold shop? Well in my shop there’s a wide range of goods! If someone comes looking for mouse turds then I give him some. If someone comes looking for real gold then I give it to him."
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 187)

krodha said:
Evidently the equipoise and post-equipoise process that other systems deal with is also very much the case for Zen, and in this sense initial awakening can be viewed as something like first bhūmi, with equipoise beginning as fragmented and becoming slowly less so as obscurations are exhausted.

Astus wrote:
"Those with deluded minds appear to be cultivating and seeking buddhahood, but they are unenlightened to their self-natures. Hence are they of small capacities. If one is to be enlightened to the sudden teaching, one cannot cultivate externally (i.e., superficially): one should just constantly activate correct views in one’s own mind, and the enervating defilements of the afflictions will be rendered permanently unable to defile one. This is to see the nature."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, p 32)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 14th, 2018 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Kenshō the first Bhumi?
Content:
shanehanner said:
is Kenshō considered the first Bhumi

Astus wrote:
Going by the stages is the gradual path. Seeing nature means the realisation of buddha-mind, and as such it is the attainment of buddhahood.

"[The teaching that one can] cultivate the six perfections and the myriad practices in order to achieve Buddhahood—this is the progressive [approach to Buddhahood]. Since beginningless time, there has never been a Buddha [who achieved that state] progressively. Just be enlightened to the One Mind and there will not be the slightest dharma that can be attained—this is the true Buddha."
(Huangbo: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 14)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 13th, 2018 at 2:55 PM
Title: Re: Gaden Mahamudra
Content:
Astus wrote:
in HYT the fourth empowerment is mahamudra

Malcolm said:
No.

Astus wrote:
Why?

"The "word empowerment" is given in order to introduce you to the actual innate wisdom, which is the seven aspects of mahamudra"
(Dakpo Tashi Namgyal: Light Rays from the Jewel of the Excellent Teaching, in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 487)

"The fourth empowerment is that of the word or mahamudra. It's like talking or pointing out instructions with the words. But the meaning is mahamudra. So then one practises with the essence of one's mind."
(Mingyur Dorje Rinpoche: http://www.samyeling.org/buddhism-and-meditation/teaching-archive-2/mingyur-dorje-rinpoche/vajrayana-and-empowerment/ )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 10th, 2018 at 6:27 PM
Title: Re: Gaden Mahamudra
Content:
Lobsang Chojor said:
I've received received a HYT empowerment and the lama indicated the importance of practicing mahamudra and said we had permission to practice it. My question is, is the lung of the 1st Panchen Lama's mahamudra root text vital before you start the practice of mahamudra in the gelug tradition?

Astus wrote:
Can't say anything about the Gelug setup, but in HYT the fourth empowerment is mahamudra, so technically you already know what to practice. The specific teachings focusing on mahamudra itself might be used as theoretical support.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The fault is that śravakas enter into a mental body in a permanent cessation with no chance of escape without intervention. Otherwise, the yogacarins too would be at fault for accepting cessation as an extreme.

Astus wrote:
"A case may exist where there is neither the mental organ nor the element of the mental organ, as in the case of him who has attained Nirvana without a remainder (nirupadhisesanirvana)."
(Abhidharmasamuccaya 1.1.1, p 26)

If arhats of a fixed nature - i.e. no change to the bodhisattva path - are in a mental body that is permanent, then that is actually an eternalist interpretation. Accepting nirupadhisesa-nirvana is not an extreme of cessation, rather the reverse of dependent origination. It is also less problematic than to claim an eternal continuum.

"One might claim that things exist—
That there is neither permanence nor yet annihilation.
For existence is a continuity
Of causes and effects that rise and then subside.
But if existence is a continuity
Of causes and effects that rise and are destroyed,
Since what has been destroyed does not arise again,
It follows that the cause has been annihilated."
(MMK 21.15-16, tr Padmakara)

When there is an end, it is annihilation. When there is no end, it is eternity.

"Since the aggregates’ continuum
Is like the light shed by a lamp,
To say they have an end is incorrect—
As also that they are unending."
(MMK 27.22)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Nevertheless, since arhats have traces of ignorance, this is sufficient to maintain their continuums, albeit not as a birth in any of the three realms.

Astus wrote:
I'm not arguing to prove that the Yogacara interpretation is correct, only to show that they had no problem accepting what is taught by sravakayana schools about the destination of arhats.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The point is that the pure aggregates do not cease contra your assertion.

Astus wrote:
The pure form of the aggregates are present during sopadhisesa-nirvana - that is what the word means - but its other part, nirupadhisesa, means exactly that there is no support (upadhi), i.e. skandhas present. However, Yogacara works discuss the transformed skandhas only for buddhas (Mahayanasutralamkara 9.41-45; Mahayanasamgraha 10.5), but not mentioned for those of the two vehicles. Xuanzang also discusses the issue as https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=459641#p459641. Also, arhats without nirupadhisesa-nirvana can only fit into the system of ekayana, but not of the five gotras where sravakas and pratyekabuddhas reach a final and definite goal. As Vasubandhu notes in his commentary to the Lotus Sutra (Tiantai Lotus Texts, BDK ed, p 135): "It is not the case that those who have not originally produced the thought of enlightenment, such as ordinary people and the disciples who are fixed [in the Small Vehicle], are able to attain it."


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Śravaka arhats take on a mental body due to their traces of ignorance, as Asanga explains clearly in the Mahāyānottaratantraśāstravyākhyā

Astus wrote:
Such a mental body is fine if it is not considered the final destination of an arhat, hence it is of the undetermined category who moves on to the bodhisattva path. After all, the Ratnagotravibhaga is about the buddha-gotra. So unless you say that Yogacara does not posit the doctrine of different gotras, arhats and pratyekabuddhas must attain true nirupadhisesa-nirvana.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
So, therefore your idea that Yogacara advocates a total cessation for arhat is completely unfounded based on the reasoning you gave, i.e., that there is no continuation upon the cessation of the ālaya.

Astus wrote:
Why would that be? Just because the alayavijnana ceases for both arhats and buddhas, it does not mean that their attainment is the same. For buddhas there are the causes accumulated over the bodhisattva path to generate the buddha-bodies. But the causes are absent for arhats, hence there is no cause for the emergence of anything.

"Samanantarapratyaya, a condition qua antecedent, means that the eight actual consciousnesses (darsana and samvittibhaga) and their Caittas (to the exclusion of Rupa, the Viprayuktas, the Bijas, and the Asamakrtas) constitute a preceding group which passes away to give place to a subsequent group of the same species, opening the way to that group and acting in such a way that it immediately comes into being. ...
At the moment of entry into Nirupadhisesanirvana (Final-Nirvana-without-residue, i.e., Nirvana without vestiges of reincarnation), the mind is extremely weak and, in consequence, has not 'the strength to open the way and lead'. Further, it does not produce a subsequent dharma of a similar nature. Hence it is not Samanantarapratyaya.
How do you explain this?
It has been truly said in the Yogasastra that 'if, immediately after the former consciousness-associates, the latter consciousness-associates are born, then the former are the Samanantarapratyaya of the latter.' (Yogasastra, 3 and 51, and Vikhyapana, 18)."
(Cheng Weishi Lun, 4.1.2, p 537-539)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The ālaya contains the seeds of affliction, so of course during liberation it reverts in everyone, thus even the Tathāgata is an arhat.

Astus wrote:
According to the Cheng Weishi Lun, arhat there refers to arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas equally.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm said:
No, this is also wrong. What about rocks, are they products ignorance in the Theravada view? No.

Astus wrote:
Dharmas, as in reference to the sentient being, i.e. nama and rupa.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 7:59 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Nevertheless, Yogācāra does not teach that the aggregates utterly cease.

Astus wrote:
It would not be remainderless nirvana if aggregates remained. The alayavijnana ceases for arhats, as Vasubandhu says in the 5th stanza of the Trimsika.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 5:50 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm said:
This is a Mahāyāna forum. Pure aggregates continue in buddhahood. See Mahāyānasamgraha. In Mahāyāna, there is also so-called nonabiding nirvana.

Astus wrote:
The issue is related to the Theravadin view of nirvana, where all conditioned dharmas must cease at the end, as they are the products of ignorance.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 5:32 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
In Mahāyāna, it is certainly the case, for example, the Lanka Sutra.

Astus wrote:
Only those of the undetermined lineage change to the bodhisattva path.

"[The Buddha] has taught a single vehicle to lead word-hearers of undetermined [lineage], other bodhisattvas [of undetermined lineage], and [bodhisattvas] of determined lineage into the Great Vehicle."
(Mahayanasamgraha 10.32, BDK ed, p 115-116)

Here is Xuanzang's explanation on the state of nirupadhisesa-nirvana (Cheng Weishi Lun, book 9, chapter 4, part 5, section 1.2.2, p 761-763, tr Wei Tat):

"The Sravakas and the Pratyekabuddhas, you say, are in possession of the Nirupadhisesa. Is there not a Sutra which teaches that they are not in possession of Nirupadhisesa? If they are in possession, why is it said that they are not?
But the same Sutra [the Srimala Sutra] teaches that they do not in any way possess Nirvana. Is one going to maintain that Sopadhisesa is also lacking in them?
In fact, as long as their 'body and intelligence' (i.e., their body and their mind) remain, the Sravakas and other saints of the two Vehicles - that is to say, the niyatagotras (saints of indeterminate nature) - have Jneyavarana. The duhkhopadhi (that is to say, 'that which serves as support for suffering') not having been exhausted, the principle of Parinirvana remains latent. It may therefore be said that they are not possessed of Nirvana.
This does not mean that they are really devoid of Sopadhisesa Nirvana, that is to say, the 'Reality' or Tathata revealed by the exhaustion of Klesavarana.
But, since they have not yet realized the complete Parinirvana, one says that they have not the Nirupadhisesa: this does not mean that, later, when their body and intelligence have been destroyed, they will not suffer the exhaustion of duhkhopadhi and the resultant Nirupadhisesa Nirvana.
In other words, if the Srimalasutra teaches that the saints of the two Vehicles are not possessed of Nirvana, one should understand that this refers to the fourth Nirvana, i.e., the Apratisthitanirvana, in which the Bodhisattva does not stay or reside, not the first three.
Furthermore, this declaration that the saints of the two Vehicles have not the Nirupadhisesa refers only to the aniyatagotras (saints of indeterminate nature) : these Arhats, at the very moment of their attainment of Sopadhisesa Nirvana, determine to turn their mind towards the supreme Bodhi. By the power of their pure meditation and contemplation and of their pious vows and resolutions, which proceed from compassion, they 'conserve' their bodies and continue their residence for long periods of time in Samsara instead of entering into the Nirupadhisesa as do the niyatagrota saints of the two Vehicles.
The latter, i.e., the niyatagrota saints whose mind is fixed on arhatship, and not on Buddhahood, have a great predilection for Parinirvana. They obtain the contemplation of pudgalasunyata, thus realizing immediately the Bhutatathata which results from this sunyata; they completely destroy the Klesavarana, the cause of rebirth, thereby attaining the Sopadhisesa Nirvana which is revealed on the basis of 'Reality'. The klesas which produce rebirth for these saints having been exhausted, there is no reason for a new existence to be produced, especially when the actual duhkhopadhi (the physical body) comes to perish spontaneously. The other samskrtadharmas (active, functioning dharmas), since they no longer serve as a supporting basis (upadhi), are abandoned at the same time as the duhkhopadhi. As a result of this, the Nirupadhisesa Nirvana which supports itself on Reality will be manifested. Although at this moment (when the duhkhopadhi has come to an end) the body and intelligence of the two Vehicles no longer exist, nevertheless, as these saints have previously effected the destruction of this duhkhopadhi, one can attribute Nirupadhisesa to them.
At this moment, [in view of the complete disappearance of all cittanimitta,] there remains only the pure Tathata (the first of the ten Tathatas set out at the beginning of this section), exempt from the ten nimittas, placid, tranquil, non active, beatified.
From the point of view of Tathata, it is said that the saints of the two Vehicles are not different from the Buddhas; but since they are not possessed of Bodhi and those activities that are directed to the salvation of others, it is said that they are different from the Buddhas."


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm said:
This the extreme of cessation. Not acceptable in Mahāyāna as CW points out.

Astus wrote:
It is not acceptable for a bodhisattva to go for total cessation, but it was not an agreed concept that the sravaka nirvana is only a temporary samadhi, as it is apparent in the five-gotra teaching of Yogacara.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm said:
Correction, there is no coming about of the upādāna-skandhas.

Astus wrote:
Further extension then, that there is the saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu and the anupadisesa-nibbanadhatu, as per the https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland and others. The aggregates without clinging remain only until parinirvana.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 3:54 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
boundless said:
Nirvana is not nothing

Astus wrote:
It is not nothing, in the sense that it is indeed the liberation from suffering. Saying that nirvana does not exist means that there is no end of birth and pain. Not to believe in nirvana means denying the goal of the path. But it does not mean a different form of existence or a special state of mind, it is rather the cessation of dependent origination.

boundless said:
he does not say that there is mind or matter in Nirvana.

Astus wrote:
Without consciousness there is no experience, no sentience. So if it is accepted that the five aggregates come about because of ignorance, when ignorance ceases there is no cause for the becoming of aggregates, and without the aggregates there is no being to talk of in any sense. But that is about nirvana in itself. The other part is where nirvana is the object of consciousness, when it is actually experienced by a noble person. To quote another sayadaw on this:

"When The Buddha says we must know and see the world as void, He means that we must know and see it as void of permanence (nicca), void of happiness (sukha) and void of self (atta). In ordinary language, we may say that you must see absolute zero.
But this does not mean that your consciousness is absolute zero: your consciousness is fully aware: it is the object that your consciousness knows and sees which is absolute zero. The object that your consciousness is fully aware of and knows and sees is the Nibbana element: the Unformed Element (Asankhata-Dhatu)."
(Pa Auk Sayadaw: Knowing and Seeing, p 27)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
boundless said:
as Ven. Dhammanando https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=25336#p364997 in the other Wheel, according to the "classical" or "traditional" Theravada view Nirvana was not seen as the mere absence.

Astus wrote:
I think Mahasi Sayadaw is a fairly traditional teacher of Theravada. He writes in http://www.aimwell.org/On%20the%20Nature%20of%20Nibbana.pdf (p 60-61 and 63-64):

"Since nibbāna means the cessation of mind, matter, and mental formations, suggestions have often been put forward that it signifies nothing and is thus useless. However, nibbāna is absolute reality, the reality of the nullification of the activities of mind, matter, and mental formations to which the knowledge of the Path, Fruition, and reviewing (paccavekkhaṇa) is inclined. ...  It is only the Path and its Fruition that can exterminate defilements, and this extermination will bring the cycle of suffering to an end. This cessation of suffering is real. Buddhas and Arahants actually reach this stage, and after their parinibbāna all sufferings come to an end."

"In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.
With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds."

boundless said:
I do not find a "mere absence" as "inaccessible to ratiocination"

Astus wrote:
It likely is, since there is a common tendency to turn it into a mystical object that, although cannot be clearly defined, but is assumed to be definitely an eternal existent.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Matt J said:
what happens to an arhat after death

Astus wrote:
No ignorance, no consciousness, no birth.

"Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, into which a man simply would not time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, or dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — its original sustenance being consumed, and no other being offered — would, without nutriment, go out. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.052.than.html )

Destination of arhat: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.085.than.html
Destination of the Tathagata: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.086.than.html


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 5:06 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
boundless said:
more or less the same as darkness. Darkness is unreal

Astus wrote:
Is there or isn't there darkness? If you say darkness does not exist, there should always be light. But quite clearly there is darkness, as a sensory object. Similarly with nirvana, there is a perception of the end of suffering, called path-consciousness and result-consciousness in Theravada ( https://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-23.htm ). But the key part is that the defilements are eliminated permanently, and that's how the different levels of the noble path are defined, while following the entry of each stage - change of lineage consciousness - there is always a few moments of perception of the unconditioned, meaning the experience of the cessation of suffering.

boundless said:
because it is simply the absence of light (and nothing else).

Astus wrote:
One standard definition of nirvana is that it means peace. Peace, similarly to darkness and space, is a type of absence, a lack of trouble. While one can sing odes to how great and wonderful peace is, it is still simply no struggle.

boundless said:
Nirvana is seen as "real", non-fictional, not a mere designation, not a blank nothing, not a mere absence and so on etc

Astus wrote:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/nature-of-nibbana/3096/4 put it nicely: "Extinguishment is ontologically negative but psychologically positive."


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 9:26 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm said:
Cessations are not nonexistences, since in cessation there is no existence of which one may speak of a nonexistence.

Astus wrote:
Cessation refers to the end of afflictions, so it is in a way the non-existence, or annihilation of afflictions. What it is not the annihilation of is the self, since that has never existed in the first place.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 2:26 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
boundless said:
That's was the point that I was making, i.e. that not all Budddhists went as far as the Madhyamaka (and the Sautrantika) in their negation of ontological status of Nirvana (and of "dharmas" in general).

Astus wrote:
Ontologically talking is perhaps going a bit too far, as the meaning of "dharma" is more along the line of category than substance.

boundless said:
in Shravakyana the anatman teaching does not rule out the possibility of something unconditioned and not unreal

Astus wrote:
Being a cessation does not make it unreal.

"is called Nibbāna because it is a departure from craving, which is an entanglement.
Though Nibbāna is onefold according to its intrinsic nature, by reference to a basis (for distinction), it is twofold, namely, the element of Nibbāna with a residue remaining, and the element of Nibbāna without the residue remaining. It is threefold according to its different aspects, namely, void, signless, and desireless."
(A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p 258-259)

"In fact nibbāna, as an unconditioned reality, has simply the nature of cessation called “the characteristic of peacefulness” (santilakkhaṇā). It is the cessation of the defilements and the rounds of suffering. Or, it is the nonexistence of conditioned phenomena (visaṅkhāra), the cessation of conditioned phenomena, and the opposite of what is conditioned."
"If the nibbāna element does not exist, then the cessation of the mental and physical processes or the aggregates could not happen. Thus it is not true that the nibbāna element is nothing, like the concept of nonexistence. Being the object of path and fruition, it is obvious in an ultimate sense. And because it is so obvious, the constantly arising mental and physical processes or aggregates in a person who practices correctly do not arise anymore after that person’s parinibbāna. Then, they are able to cease forever. It means that the cessation is something that can be obvious."
(Mahasi Sayadaw: Manual of Insight p 454, 456)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
Can we agree that brahman does not exist in the way that people (non-enlighteneds, like me) think it exists?

Astus wrote:
That basically means that one is incorrect until one is correct, that is, until one understands as it is, one has the wrong idea. Once it is understood correctly, it becomes clear that it is not the thoughts but the perceiver.

Rick said:
The trick here is that brahman cannot be experienced, because it is not an object.

Astus wrote:
It is the always present final subject, i.e. the self. As it is conscious, it is experienced by itself.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
The question of whether or not existent is a predicate

Astus wrote:
The quote is from the Bhagavad-Gita-Bhasya 13.12, and if you read on to the next two stanzas, Sankara reinforces that the Brahman exists. Furthermore, in his commentary to 13.12 he explains the Gita as it is referring only to objects, and of course the "knower of the field" is not the field, hence not an object of cognition that could be labelled. But the point is always to lead one to the true self, so even when seemingly everything is negated, a single ultimate remains. Without that soul left alone the whole teaching of Vedanta would just turn into a different doctrine.

Rick said:
brahman cannot be said to existent, but it can be experienced to be existent

Astus wrote:
It is not only called existent, but has to be named existent. A small section of one of Sankara's many commentaries should not serve as a basis of interpreting all his teachings. But yes, there is a recognised difference between words and realisation, just like in everyday life, otherwise there would be no need for all the religious practices.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
how do we reconcile

Astus wrote:
Your quote refers to the difference between conceptual and experiential, learning and realisation.

" (Question):—Then how is it that Brahman is said to be known through the śāstras or scriptures?
(Answer):—All the words which are used to impart a true knowledge of Brahman only give us to understand Him indirectly, by implication; they fail to denote Him directly. The mental cognition which is generated by a word has a form, and so fails to reach the self-conscious Brahman; thus cognitions recede from Him along with the words."
( https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/the-taittiriya-upanishad/d/doc79846.html.16)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
has zero attributes

Astus wrote:
Existence (sat) is not an attribute (guna).

"After rejecting the object portion one should accept the Self as the knower free from all qualifications. The ego, the object portion, is also like the part of the body cut off.
The Self of which the whole of the object portion is the qualification is different from it. Bereft of all qualifications It has an independent existence like that of a man possessing a variegated cow."
(Upadesasahasri 2.6.4-5, p 99)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 30th, 2018 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
it cannot be (rightly) said that brahman is the single existent being.

Astus wrote:
Is vedanta undecided on the nature of Brahman? Here is a little Sankara then:

"Then, what is the Atman? It is of the nature of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satcitananda (Existence-Knowledge-Bliss).
What is Sat? Sat is that which remains unchanged in the three periods of time."
( http://practicalphilosophy.in/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/tattvabodha.pdf 16.1-2)

"The wise should discriminate between the Self and the not-Self for the bondage. Only then does one know the Self to be Absolute Existence-Knowledge-Bliss, only then, does one become happy."
"Brahman is Existence-Knowledge-Absolute, extremely pure, Supreme, Self-existing, Eternal, Indivisible-Bliss, not essentially different from the inmost Self , and absolutely without parts. It is ever victorious."
( https://realization.org/down/sankara.vivekachudamani.chaitanya.pdf 152, 225)

"Unlike the knowledge gained through the eye etc. the Knowledge of the Knower does not cease to exist. It is said that, 'the Knowledge of the Knower does not go out of existence '. The Knower, therefore, is always of the homogeneous nature of Knowledge."
"That oneself exists is undoubted. You may call it Knowledge, Self or whatever i you like. But Its non-existence cannot be admitted as It is the Witness of all things existing and non-existing.
That by which the non-existence of things is witnessed must be real. All would be ignorant of the existence and non·existence of things if that were not the case. Therefore yours is a position which cannot be accepted."
(Upadesasahasri 2.15.18; 2.16.31-32, tr Sw Jagananda)

"That is, it is through this Self known as 'Being' that all this Universe is imbued with Self ; and there is no other Self for this which passes through births and deaths ; as has been declared in such other Vedic texts as-'other than this, there is no Seer, other than this, there is no Heaven' (Brhada. Upa. III. viii. 11.)-that through which all this Univ~rse becomes imbued with Self is its origin, called 'Being', which is True and Absolutely Real. Hence, it is this that is the Self of the Universe, its counter-form, its very essence, its very Soul."

"Objection: - "The assertion 'that thou art' may be a figurative one, just as a man endowed with courage and other qualities is spoken as 'you are a lion'. (So 'That thou art ' may mean that thou art like the That, 'Being')."
No; because it has been taught that Being, one, without a second, is the only real Entity-like 'clay' being the one entity pervading all products of clay. If it were a more figurative expression, the knowledge thereof could not be spoken of as bringing about that mergence into Being where 'the delay is only so long' etc., because all figurative notions are false (unreal). - just like the notions 'you are lndra', 'you are Yama'."
(Chandogya-Upanisad-Bhasya, 6.8.7; 6.16.3. p 339, 365)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So the argument about whether conventional objects really exist, or the way in which they exist, is really about whether they embody or comprise 'own being' - which they don't. But it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Astus wrote:
If we go by the abhidharma approach, then all dharmas - conditioned and unconditioned - are svabhava, in that they are distinct, individual categories. If we go by the prajnaparamita approach, then all dharmas - conditioned and unconditioned - are nihsvabhava, in that they are contextual and conceptual categories. Therefore there is no difference between nirvana and other dharmas in terms of having or not having self-existence.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 6:15 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
boundless said:
prof. Peter Harvey in the chapter 2 of his book

Astus wrote:
It is not stated that nirvana is self. One simple reason is that sentience, or consciousness, cannot be unconditioned. So, there are all sorts of nice sounding teachings about nirvana that can be easily confused with notions like Soul, God, etc., but those are expedient teachings, that are meant to motivate people, to build some level of faith. When it eventually comes to reasoning and cultivation, nirvana is just the complete end of afflictions. And as the extinction of the cause of suffering - i.e. the third noble truth - it is necessarily permanent and happy, therefore, in a sense, as it happens in Mahayana, it can even be called self.

But remember the Mulapariyaya Sutta, that while an ordinary person conceives a self in some relation to nirvana, the practitioner "should not conceive [himself as] Nibbana, he should not conceive [himself] in Nibbana, he should not conceive [himself apart] from Nibbana, he should not conceive Nibbana to be ‘mine,’ he should not delight in Nibbana. Why is that? Because he must fully understand it, I say."


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 5:55 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
Advaita does pretty much the same thing.

Astus wrote:
Vedanta posits a single existent being and negates everything else. Buddhism only points out that appearances are fictional, and does not establish a true being apart from that. Hence one is atmavada, the other is anatmavada.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 29th, 2018 at 5:49 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So nirvana must be existent, then?

Astus wrote:
Of course, in the Theravadin abhidharma nirvana is one of the four ultimate (paramartha) dharmas, and it is the sole unconditioned (asamskrta) dharma. In other abhidharma systems, including the Yogacarin, nirvana is an unconditioned dharma. So what should be looked into is what being a dharma means, after all, in Buddhism everything is eventually a dharma.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 28th, 2018 at 4:45 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Neither exists nor doesn't exist; beyond the vicissitudes of existence. ...  That is why it can only be known by un-knowing, hence, back to via negativa and apophaticism. 'He that knows it, knows it not.'"

Astus wrote:
The position of "neither is nor isn't" is one of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catu%E1%B9%A3ko%E1%B9%ADi, while the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aj%C3%B1ana approach of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjaya_Belatthiputta is clearly not the Buddha's version, as also refuted in the Brahmajala Sutta under the "doctrines of endless equivocation".


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2018 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
Nice in theory

Astus wrote:
It is a theoretical proposition that an object may have a quality without there being any cause of that quality. No matter how long you beat the table, it cannot have any relevance to prove the theory correct or wrong.

Rick said:
Not sure how Buddhism explains it

Astus wrote:
Buddhism does not debate conventional reality. It only points out that it is merely conventional, that is, conceptual fabrication.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2018 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
Is there solidity without any solid particles?

Astus wrote:
If a composite object's quality does not exist in its elements, where is the quality from? If it cannot be from its constituents, and it cannot be from something other than what it is made of, nor is it possible for something to occur from nothing, then such a quality cannot exist at all.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2018 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
Yes, an actual entity has duration = its own localized past, present, and future.

Astus wrote:
Hence while there is an assumption of momentary existence, it cannot be established as actually a momentary existent.

Rick said:
Is there a solid table without any solid particles?

Astus wrote:
A river without water would be a wooden table without the wood. A table without solid particles would be water without wet particles. So one is movement/form without an object that moves/has a form; the other is an object with constituents that lack the qualities present in the object. Both are problematic, but in different ways.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2018 at 5:48 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
no enduring substances, only 'momentary events of experience' called actual entities

Astus wrote:
If there are momentary events, those events themselves have a becoming phase, an enduring phase, a decaying phase, and a cessation phase; in other words: birth, ageing, illness, death. That way a momentary event has its own past, present, and future as well, and that is how even momentary existence cannot be established.

Rick said:
The *flow* exists, but there is no-thing (no substance) that is flowing.

Astus wrote:
Is there a river without water?


