﻿Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 27th, 2018 at 5:42 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
boundless said:
Here, maybe Nirvana can be said to be "permanent" in the sense that it is unrelated to time.

Astus wrote:
Nirvana is the complete extinction of the three poisons, see this repeated again and again in the Asankhata-samyutta. Without the afflictions there is no more rebirth, this is clear from all the teachings on dependent origination (e.g. Nidana-samyutta). Everything that can be called a type of awareness or consciousness is included under the five aggregates and six areas, all of them conditioned. If nirvana is posited as an existent object, either it is conditioned (can be perceived), or it is fictional (cannot be perceived). The reason nirvana is not called non-existent is twofold: because there is liberation, and because it is the end of conceptualisation (see: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.174.than.html ).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
Per process philosophy what 'exists' are dynamic events. Madhyamaka refutes the existence of fixed substances, not of dynamic events. Or?

Astus wrote:
Does that dynamic event exist in the present, the past, or the future? If it is in the past or the future, it is non-existent. If it is in the present, how is it an event?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
boundless said:
is this true for all Buddhists?

Astus wrote:
Yes.

boundless said:
I mean at least for Nirvana, the Theravada view seems quite different. ... Note the description of Nirvana as "permanent". Is the Madhyamaka view that Theravada is "eternalist" in some sense?

Astus wrote:
Quite the opposite, sravakayana is often characterised in Mahayana as annihilationist, because of nirupadhisesa-nirvana. Nirvana is permanent in the sense that there is no more birth, ever.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 25th, 2018 at 5:55 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
What about the kind of existence with which a process is said to exist?

Astus wrote:
Belief in continuity is that something exists from one moment to the next. That is basically eternalism. Madhyamaka goes to the point where even momentary existence is refuted, not just a continual one.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 23rd, 2018 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Rick said:
Is there anything that cannot be negated in Buddhism? Can one's existence be negated?

Astus wrote:
A monk asked Zen master Dasui, “When the aeonic fire engulfs everything, is this annihilated or not?”
Dasui said, “Annihilated.”
The monk said, “Then it is annihilated along with everything else?”
Dasui said, “It is annihilated along with everything else.”
The monk refused to accept this answer. He later went to Touzi Datong and relayed to him his conversation with Dasui.
Touzi lit incense and bowed to the figure of the Buddha, saying, “The ancient buddha of West River has appeared.”
Then Touzi said to the monk, “You should go back there quickly and atone for your mistake.”
The monk went back to see Dasui, but Dasui had already died. The monk then went back to see Touzi, but Touzi had also passed away.
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 181; also partly in Blue Cliff Record 29)

Rick said:
Or would it be right-er in Buddhism to say: I neither am, nor am not, nor neither, nor both? To what extent does the answer depend on the Buddhist school/tradition?

Astus wrote:
The buddhas said “I am.”
They taught as well that self does not exist.
They also said that self
And no-self are completely nonexistent.
(Mulamadhyamakakarika 18.6, tr Padmakara)

A monk once asked Mazu, “Apart from the four propositions and beyond the hundred negations, I ask the teacher to directly indicate to me the meaning of [Bodhidharma’s] coming from the west.”
The great teacher [Mazu] said, “I am tired today, and cannot explain it for you. Go ask [Xitang] Zhizang.”
The monk asked [Zhi]zang, and [Zhi]zang said, “Why don’t you ask the teacher?”
The monk said, “The teacher had me come ask you.”
[Zhi]zang said, “Today I have a headache, and cannot explain it for you. Go ask brother [Baizhang Huai]hai.”
The monk asked [Baizhang Huai]hai, and [Huai]hai said, “When I reach here, after all I do not understand.”
The monk related this to the great teacher [Mazu], and Mazu said,
“[Zhi]zang’s head is white, and [Huai]hai’s head is black.”
(Eihei Koroku, p 591; also in Blue Cliff Record 73)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 20th, 2018 at 9:12 PM
Title: Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...
Content:
MatthewAngby said:
“Why bother to save you if you’re such a jerk!”

Astus wrote:
All beings are jerks. To expect otherwise is delusion that, obviously, all beings suffer from. Also, the idea that one can save another is one more delusion. The bodhisattva path is therefore to save all beings while it is clear that there is nobody to save anybody. Without the latter part it is not the bodhisattva path, rather some sort of messiah complex.

For usual teachings on the issue, check topics like relative and ultimate bodhicitta, and kshanti-paramita.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 16th, 2018 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: doctrinal unity
Content:
clyde said:
(admittedly this is a bit of a stretch )

Astus wrote:
It is.

clyde said:
“No dependence on words and letters;” = “the absence of grasping at concepts”

Astus wrote:
That may fit, unless one reads it with the previous line and takes it to mean rejecting doctrines and scriptures.

clyde said:
“Direct pointing to the mind of man;” = “directly perceive the nature of mind”

Astus wrote:
Somebody else pointing it out and oneself perceiving it are not the same, even if there can be a causal relationship.

clyde said:
“Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.” = “the nature of mind is identical to the nature of buddhahood”

Astus wrote:
It sounds more like one being the cause and the other the result.

Why all that doesn't really give a doctrinal unity is that neither the nature, nor the way one can see it is specified.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 16th, 2018 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: doctrinal unity
Content:
clyde said:
This was summarized by Bodhidharma, the First Zen Patriarch: A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence on words and letters;
Direct pointing to the mind of man;
Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.

Astus wrote:
How does that quatrain match with what I wrote?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 16th, 2018 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: proclaiming awakening
Content:
clyde said:
We read this of the Buddha and other Buddhist teachers in the suttas, sutras, and other ancient texts.

Astus wrote:
Apart from the Buddha himself, who do you know of who proclaimed their attainment, especially in front of lay people?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 16th, 2018 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: proclaiming awakening
Content:
clyde said:
Why don’t living Buddhist teachers do the same? Or are none of them enlightened?

Astus wrote:
Because such a claim is basically counterproductive. It only deepens the divide between teacher and student, strengthens unrealistic expectations, and generates an unhealthy personality cult. On the other hand, saying that one's teacher was a great being, a buddha in person, etc., means that the teaching transmitted is beneficial, valuable, and true.

"If he claims to have gained something, he is arrogant. If he claims to have realized something, he is arrogant. If he claims to have attained liberation. he is arrogant."
(The Definitive Vinaya, in Treasury of Mahayana Sutras, p 271)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 5:37 PM
Title: Re: proclaiming awakening
Content:
clyde said:
The Buddha’s affirmation wasn’t merely claiming that the path was true

Astus wrote:
It's not the Buddha's claim, it is the tradition's claim, the disciples' validation of themselves by asserting the trustworthiness of their teacher.

clyde said:
I don’t believe that all Buddhist teachers are enlightened regardless of their status or title

Astus wrote:
Apart from the Buddha and the Dharma, the third jewel is the Sangha. Trust in the Sangha is as important as trust in the other two.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 15th, 2018 at 5:28 PM
Title: Re: doctrinal unity
Content:
clyde said:
there are practices and teachings that differentiate Zen from other Buddhist (and non-Buddhist) traditions and define the Zen tradition, yes?

Astus wrote:
What are those unique teachings and practices?

Kanna Zen is likely the most unique element, and it encompasses almost everything one can associate with the general view of Zen. The problem with that is that it was first propagated in the 12th century, and it is not embraced universally.

As for teaching, sudden enlightenment is possibly the term that can cover the central theme of Zen teachings, as long as we take it to include the belief that it is possible to directly perceive the nature of mind without prerequisites (discipline, meditation, study), and that the nature of mind is identical to the nature of buddhahood. As for practice, non-thought is likely the essence of all methods, meaning the absence of grasping at concepts, behind what lies the view that from grasping at thoughts emerge everything.

Why then does not this mean a doctrinal unity? Because not setting up a doctrine to be upheld is the very path itself.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 8:01 PM
Title: Re: doctrinal unity
Content:
Anders said:
Is this needed?

Astus wrote:
No. It's actually the point that Zen does not mean a specific teaching or method.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 3:58 PM
Title: Re: Reliance on a master
Content:
Rion said:
Can anyone explain the contradiction?

Astus wrote:
There are some significant differences between traditions in terms of how the Buddha is conceived.

You might want to check Guang Xing's study https://books.google.hu/books?id=DTWZLMGFFgkC as a little background info.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 14th, 2018 at 3:53 PM
Title: Re: proclaiming awakening
Content:
clyde said:
The Buddha proclaimed

Astus wrote:
The regular affirmation of the Buddha's enlightenment all over the sutras is not really about what he claimed but about affirming Buddhism as true. That is why you can find that statements about the Buddha come to be grander and grander as you go from the Nikayas towards the Tantras.

clyde said:
reluctant to talk about their attainments or that of their students

Astus wrote:
There is little need for that when the system does that for you. For instance, a Zen master is supposed to be an equal of the Buddha by the fact of being affirmed as a Dharma heir; similarly, a tulku - i.e. nirmanakaya, or the telling Chinese term "living Buddha" (huofo 活佛) - is a fairly obvious expression defining the status of someone as enlightened.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 11th, 2018 at 5:39 PM
Title: Re: The 'Democracy' of the Pure Land Path
Content:
如傑優婆塞 said:
https://www.ymba.org/books/buddhism-wisdom-faith-pure-land-principles-and-practice/note-pure-land
It is a democratic method that empowers its adherents, freeing them from arcane metaphysics as well as dependence on teachers, gurus, roshis and other mediating authority figures

Astus wrote:
That is a half-truth. There are still teachers in the various PL organisations, there is also a hierarchy within those communities, etc. It is just a common human desire/behaviour to follow other people. At the same time, all Buddhist paths require the individual to proceed on the way on his own, nobody can push or pull instead of the practitioner.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 9th, 2018 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: No gods / No superior entities
Content:
croco said:
Which form of Buddhism fits the criteria?

Astus wrote:
Buddhism is a path of developing oneself and helping others to develop. In that way every Buddhist has complete freedom in what they are willing to undertake as their practice. However, as with any group of people, communities have their own set of practices that often involve rituals. Such rituals within Buddhism normally involve at least some references to so called supernatural entities, like guardian deities and ghosts, although groups run by Westerners may lack most or all of that.

Buddhist practice as a lay person is primarily about upholding the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts, and this is quite universal within all schools. So, teaching those five precepts to one's children is the optimal approach, as https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.050-099.than.html#iti-074. There are also some https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html#to-children regarding the duties of parents toward their children, where the first two elements are restraining them from evil and encouraging them to do good. You may also read how the Buddha taught his own son, Rahula, when he was only 7: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 9th, 2018 at 6:12 PM
Title: Re: Purify a disease
Content:
Norden said:
What I meant was the general idea of cause and effect of leper. Cula-kammavibhanga talks more about five precepts and the transgressions.

Astus wrote:
Leprosy is an illness that can turn one ugly, hence look at the causes of those two: anger and ill-temper.

Norden said:
Since we do not know what type of unwholesome deed causes leper, therefore it's imponderable, is that what you're saying?

Astus wrote:
What that quote says is that it is futile to guess all the consequences of an action. Even if you had the ability to remember your previous lives, you still could not tell what actions would cause what in your present and future lives.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 9th, 2018 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: doctrinal unity
Content:
clyde said:
While there are differences in doctrinal emphasis (and practices) between the lineages, I think there is a fair degree of doctrinal unity.

Astus wrote:
What I meant is the absence of a requirement to comply with a specific set of doctrines within the various organisations. It can be said that there is a fair degree of unity even in the whole of Buddhism, more in East Asian Mahayana, and even more if we look at only e.g. Korean Zen. But I have not yet heard of an institution that outlines the particular teachings that they consider orthodox, unlike the major Christian churches.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 9th, 2018 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Purify a disease
Content:
Norden said:
If we do not know the precise cause and result, can we at least know the general idea?

Astus wrote:
Of course, there are such descriptions, see: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html

Norden said:
Then why in order to counteract the karma of leper is inconceivable?

Astus wrote:
What's already done is done, it cannot be changed. What one can do is to avoid repeating the same, thus reaping the results again.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 8th, 2018 at 3:35 PM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
clyde said:
Zen, the tradition, is a religious institution (or institutions)

Astus wrote:
Zen is a very loose term applied to a chain of concepts within East Asian Buddhism. Institutionally it has always existed within the framework of the monastic tradition, and to that added its main defining idea of lineages.

clyde said:
and as such it’s to its leaders to determine what is and is not part of their tradition.

Astus wrote:
Today there are bigger and smaller organisations (Soto, Jogye, Fo Guang Shan, etc.), but even within those there isn't much of doctrinal unity, not to mention all the Western Zen communities that can operate in complete independence apart from any Asian hierarchy.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
WuMing said:
Of course, no doubt about that, but it is very wise to check back with the teacher in order to not go astray. This is the danger of doing it by oneself alone, as I see it. It is good to check ones understanding with a teacher, a real person, to avoid fooling oneself.

Astus wrote:
According to http://ddc.shengyen.org/cgi-bin/ccdd/show.py?s=09-06p0027 the primary factor is that a teacher should have a correct view, and in order to be able to tell that, the disciple must have knowledge of the Dharma. So in the end it always comes down to matching view with what is taught in the scriptures. As it's said in the https://suttacentral.net/dn16/en/sujato:

"If they’re not included in the discourses or found in the Vinaya, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is not the word of the Buddha. It has not been correctly memorized by those senior mendicants.’ And so you should reject it. If they are included in the discourses and found in the Vinaya, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Clearly this is the word of the Buddha. It has been correctly memorized by those senior mendicants.’ You should remember it."


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: Purify a disease
Content:
Norden said:
I am kind of fear I will develop the disease

Astus wrote:
It seems that the disease you actually have is fear, so what could be treated is fear.

Norden said:
what particular wholesome deed do I need to do to neutralize or counteract this particular disease, if any?

Astus wrote:
You might want to look into some teachings on karma first: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.099.than.html, https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html, https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.014.than.html.

"The result of kamma is an inconceivable matter that one should not try to conceive; one who tries to conceive it would reap either madness or frustration."
(AN 4.77, tr Bodhi)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 5:22 PM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
smcj said:
Because without a teacher one must rely on one’s own faulty awareness as one’s guide. Unawareness will always interpret Dharma as something other than what it is.

Astus wrote:
All practitioner must develop for oneself correct mindfulness (samyaksmrti) and wise attention (yonisomanaskara). But I think you mean right view, i.e. correctly knowing and understanding the Dharma, what is obtained by learning, and learning happens through listening to Dharma speeches and reading Dharma books. Of course, without learning there is little chance of arriving at correct view, and without correct view there is no correct understanding and correct cultivation.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 5:06 PM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
clyde said:
I defer to Zen teachers to define the “Zen tradition” and most (all?) Zen teachers hold that the tradition requires a living, face-to-face student-teacher relationship.  So, a ‘true Zen student’ has a Zen teacher, which is why I consider myself a ‘student of Zen’ and not a Zen student.

Astus wrote:
Every skill and science has its teachers, because on the one hand there are people who like to share their knowledge, and there are people who like to listen to others. This is nothing unique in Zen. But while a discussion on history means talking about historical events, apparently lots of discussion about Zen is about the people who teach and who study it. In that way Zen looks more like the shallow analysis of modern politics where people consider only the individual politicians and their followers, instead of politics on the social, economic, and the philosophical level. Probably the reason for that is the idea that Zen is some undefinable practice that cannot be spoken of, hence instead of clarifying what is what, it is left to those who are assumed to be the experts in this mostly unknown matter. At the same time, there is the fear that unless one attends a specialist, one will fall into unfounded conceptual constructs and misinterpret everything. But isn't it because of leaving Zen a vague something that it is so easy to be trapped into wrong views about it? Just because there are hundreds and thousands of reliable sources to study mathematics, it does not mean people no longer want to learn it from the experts of the field, and at the same time there is little confusion about the difference in expertise of a freshman, a secondary school teacher, and a Fields Medalist. Similarly, there are village Zen priests, there are abbots, there are highly ranked masters, and as for genuinely enlightened teachers, that is rather a matter of personal opinion. But none of that actually informs us what Zen is, just as living with a mathematician does not magically make one understand mathematics.

clyde said:
practiced without a teacher

Astus wrote:
Is practice a communal activity, or two-person activity? If not, and it is an individual effort, then no practice happens with a teacher. A teacher can explain and advise, but can neither show it, nor give it.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 4:06 PM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
WuMing said:
here is a quote from Dogen's Bendowa (emphasis is mine): practice the way of zazen under the guidance of a true teacher

Astus wrote:
That means only one thing in Dogen's writing, himself. That is because he denies the realisation of all Buddhist teachers who brought the Dharma from China before him, and he viewed only his teacher as the sole upholder of not simply Zen but the whole Buddhadharma. In other words, what Dogen claims (or rather propagates) is that unless you become his disciple, you cannot attain liberation.

WuMing said:
To understand the dharma and attain the way can only be the result of studying with a teacher.

Astus wrote:
Any reason why that would be so?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
WuMing said:
so, there is a difference between reading instructions in a book and receiving instructions directly from a teacher, isn't it!?

Astus wrote:
Is there a difference between writing and speaking?

"Since they maintain they have no need of written words, they should not speak either, because written words are merely the marks of spoken language. They also maintain that the direct way cannot be established by written words, and yet these two words, ‘not established’ are themselves written."
(Platform Sutra, ch 10, tr http://www.cttbusa.org/6patriarch/6patriarch20.asp )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
WuMing said:
... and in order to do so, you have to receive the intructions of a teacher to be able to do it, right?

Astus wrote:
Dahui's letters are filled with instructions. But of course it might help to hear the same repeated from the high seat.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 7th, 2018 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
Matylda said:
There is no zen pracitce without zen teacher.

Astus wrote:
What counts as Zen practice?
If it is non-thought, then if one can do it, there is nothing more to explain, and if one cannot do it, one is not yet practising.
If it is something other than non-thought, but rather various methods to achieve it, then it is no different from the gradual path that is explained in all the scriptures and treatises.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 6th, 2018 at 3:19 PM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
Matylda said:
Ultimately without teacher there is no zen practice

Astus wrote:
So Huineng said,

"If you can become enlightened yourself, don’t rely on external seeking — don’t think I’m saying you can only attain emancipation through [the help of] a spiritual compatriot other than yourself. This is not the case! Why? Within your own minds there is a spiritual compatriot [who will help you] become enlightened by yourself! If you activate the false and deluded, you will become all mixed up with false thoughts. Although some external spiritual compatriots may be teachers, they cannot save you. If you activate the correct and true and contemplate with prajñā, in a single instant [all your] false thoughts will be completely eradicated. If you recognize the self-nature, with a single [experience of] enlightenment you will attain the stage of buddhahood."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 33)

And Dahui,

"I just believe that this matter can’t be transmitted and can’t be learned. You must realize on your own, awaken on your own, affirm on your own, stop-to-rest on your own, and then you will for the first time get to the end of things."
(Letters of Dahui, p 89)

But even if it is maintained that there is no Zen without a teacher, it is taught that there is no Zen without the pure precepts of the renunciates.

The Buddha taught,

"Therefore, Ānanda, one who practices entering samādhi while practicing meditation in stillness without renouncing sexual activity is like one who cooks sand in the hope that it will turn into rice. A hundred thousand eons might pass and it would still be nothing but hot sand, since it wasn’t rice to begin with. It was merely sand.
In seeking the wondrous enlightenment of the Buddha while you still have sexual desire, you may gain some understanding of that wondrous enlightenment, but that understanding will be rooted in sexual desire. If the basis of your understanding is sexual desire, you will continually be reborn among the three lowly destinies, bound to the cycle of death and rebirth with no hope of escape. Then how will you find your way to practice and realization of the Thus-Come Ones’ nirvana?"
(Surangama Sutra, ch 7.1, new BTTS translation, p 265)

And Eisai,

"The Buddha’s teachings regard keeping precepts as preceding everything else. If anyone breaks moral precepts regulated by the Buddha, and calls himself a child of the Buddha, it can be compared to a subject who won’t obey the monarch’s orders but who [still] calls himself a subject of the monarch."
(Treatise on Letting Zen Flourish, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 125)

And Dogen,

"The lifeblood of the buddhas and the patriarchs is nothing other than their leaving family life and receiving the precepts. Someone who has not left family life is never a Buddhist patriarch. To see the buddhas and to see the patriarchs is to leave family life and to receive the precepts."
(Shukke, in SBGZ, vol 4, BDK ed, p 148)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 6th, 2018 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
clyde said:
Must one size fit all?

Astus wrote:
One size must fit all, otherwise there is no path. It is rather a matter of what size one imagines there.

clyde said:
But the goal of Zen (and all Buddhist traditions) is awakening and living in accord with the Dharma.

Astus wrote:
There is actually no rule that one has to train under a specific teacher for a specific length of time in Zen in order to attain awakening. It is a fairly individual matter how long it takes for a person to realise that there is nothing to gain nor to lose. Nor is it said that one should simply settle with the first person that looks like what one imagines a teacher to be. Furthermore, following a teacher is no guarantee for anything.
But(!), there can be, and likely is, a huge amount of misconception about Buddhism in anyone's head who is just getting to know it. A proper teacher is really a convenient way to learn, just as  becoming a member of a community is similarly beneficial. While in the end it is up to each person to develop the factors of enlightenment, it can hardly happen without being clear about what they are and how to make them come about.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 5th, 2018 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Differences in the practice of satipatthana among followers of different turns of the wheel of Dharma.
Content:
Astus wrote:
Here is some literature:

Mahaprajnaparamitasastra, ch 31 (Migme Chodron translation: vol 3, p 947-965)
Siksasamuccaya ch. 13 ( https://archive.org/stream/FourApplMindfulnessMahayana/SgiksnasamuccayaOn4ApplicationsUpdatedJuly2017_djvu.txt )
Madhyantavibhaga 4.1 (look into commentaries for details)
Mahayanasutralamkara 18.43-45 (lists 14 unique qualities found in smrtyupasthana as bodhisattva practice)
Dōgen: Sanjūshichi-bon-bodai-bunpō (BDK ed. of Shobogenzo, vol 4, p 3-6)
Niguma: Lady of Illusion, p 95, 98-100
Berzin: https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/abhidharma-tenet-systems/comparison-of-buddhist-traditions/the-four-close-placements-of-mindfulness-in-mahayana
Sujato: http://santifm.org/santipada/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A_History_of_Mindfulness_Bhikkhu_Sujato.pdf, 17.5


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 3rd, 2018 at 2:53 PM
Title: Re: Accuracy of internet koans
Content:
shanyin said:
What's a hwandu?

Astus wrote:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Tou.
Jogye website: http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020&wr_id=37


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 1st, 2018 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Accuracy of internet koans
Content:
shanyin said:
Can someone give me a koan from one of those books?

Astus wrote:
"Daily life itself is a hwadu, so there is no need to receive a hwadu from others or to give a hwadu to others. Your very existence is a hwadu. Thus, if you are continuously holding on to a hwadu someone else gave you, when will you be able to solve your original hwadus? Trying to solve another person's hwadu is like turning empty millstones or spinning a car's wheels without moving forward.
Your body itself is a hwadu. Birth itself is a hwadu. Work itself is a hwadu. The vast universe is a hwadu. If you want to add more hwadus to these, when will you be able to taste this infinitely deep world we live in?"
(Daehaeng Kun Sunim: No River to Cross, p 55)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 29th, 2018 at 4:58 PM
Title: Re: Prayers, to who?
Content:
Astus wrote:
A teaching to be considered here:

"Householder, there are these five things that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world. What five? Long life, householder, is wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world. Beauty … Happiness … Fame … The heavens are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world. These are the five things that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world.
These five things, householder, that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world, I say, are not obtained by means of prayers or aspirations. If these five things that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and rarely gained in the world could be obtained by means of prayers or aspirations, who here would be lacking in anything?"
( https://suttacentral.net/an5.43/en/bodhi )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
kausalya said:
Ekayana, as far as I understand it, is an expression of shunyata.

Astus wrote:
Ekayana means one vehicle.

"A Tathāgata teaches sentient beings the Dharma only through the single buddha vehicle. There is no other, neither a second nor a third."
(Lotus Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 31)

"There is really no establishment of various vehicles, and so I speak of the one vehicle; but in order to carry the ignorant I talk of a variety of vehicles."
(Lankavatara Sutra, 2.56, tr Suzuki)

"To dispel all impurities, there is no antidote to apply apart from knowing the suchness of phenomena.
Suchness does not rely on the divisions of phenomena's manifestions,
And the intelligence that perceives suchness is also not multiple.
Therefore, you taught the unequalled and inseparable vehicle to sentient beings."
(Madhyamakavatara 12.36, in "The Karmapa's Middle Way", p 544-545)

kausalya said:
It doesn't negate the need to find a coherent path and stick to it.

Astus wrote:
The Buddhadharma is a path.

kausalya said:
when the Buddha said for us to light our own way

Astus wrote:
It is actually explained quite clearly:

"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.
And how, Ananda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge?
When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html )

Interestingly, this island of mindfulness is also called the one-way path (ekayana):

"this is the one-way path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method, for the realization of Nibbāna, that is, the four establishments of mindfulness."
( https://suttacentral.net/sn47.1/en/bodhi )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 28th, 2018 at 5:49 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
kausalya said:
The destination is the same, but the steps are different. All roads lead to Rome, but it is only prudent to stick to one road if you want to get there as fast as possible (and you should, if the goal is to develop bodhichitta).

Astus wrote:
There is only one road, ekayana, to the same destination. Stylistics and terminology may differ, but that does not change the content.

kausalya said:
Lineages also exist so that some measure of control can be exerted over who is allowed to teach, and their realizations can be verified as genuine beforehand.

Astus wrote:
That is an idealistic reinterpretation of lineage. People are not only allowed to teach, but they should teach, especially those committed to liberating all beings. There is no general supervising institution exerting some sort of quality control on monastics or the laity.

kausalya said:
A free-for-all would result in people having access to inappropriate methods, running the risk of injuring themselves or others in the process.

Astus wrote:
The Buddha's words are available to everyone, as they should be. Grabbing the snake at the wrong end is always a risk.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 27th, 2018 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Accuracy of internet koans
Content:
shanyin said:
Are some koans on the internet innacurate (imperfect)?

Astus wrote:
Many are usually from " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Flesh,_Zen_Bones ", like that story you quoted. If you want to know the classical koans, check classical collections (the three most popular that are available in English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gateless_Barrier, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Cliff_Record, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Equanimity ). But there are several large collections of Zen stories, both canonical and extra-canonical.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?
Content:
Vasana said:
Connectivity and interdependence are a fact of reality it's just that on the ultimate side, no entities are truly established.

Astus wrote:
I'm not talking of any ultimate level, more like "middle level" (conventional analytical/philosophical), that I think the OP is asking about. Of course, connections do make sense on the ordinary conventional level, but that does not require much Buddhist explanation.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 at 7:34 PM
Title: Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?
Content:
seeker242 said:
And what about Metta? Is metta not used to "establish a connection"?

Astus wrote:
One develops kindness in order to attain the 11 benefits (see: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.016.than.html ), and possibly even liberation ( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html ). Even the four means of attraction (samgrahavastu / 四攝法) are about liberating beings.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 26th, 2018 at 6:48 PM
Title: Re: Satipatthana practice and Shikantaza
Content:
JMGinPDX said:
reflecting on satipatthana during shikantaza practice?

Astus wrote:
I don't know what exactly you mean by satipatthana, as that practice has various approaches in Theravada itself, and there are other forms preserved in Mahayana traditions too. If you want to see a Zen take on it, check out Dogen's Sanjushichihon Bodaibunpo (三十七品菩提分法 / 37 bodhipaksadharma) found in his Shobogenzo. There are also Thich Nhat Hanh's works, in particular his commentary (Transformation and Healing).

In a way, the essence of satipatthana is the cultivation of sati and sampajanna (e.g. https://suttacentral.net/sn47.2/en/bodhi ), as emphasised by the disciples of Ajahn Chah, and such qualities can be seen as very much present in zazen as well. So if you take satipatthana less as a four staged method and more as a practice of mindfulness in general, it comes closer to the ideal form in Zen.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2018 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?
Content:
Vasana said:
there is at least some connection between all beings as taught in Mahayana.both in terms of 'mother sentient beings' and the fact that the clothes on our back, food on our plate, technology were using and so on is due to the kindness and/or efforts of others.

Astus wrote:
Contemplating that samsara has no beginning ( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.014.than.html ) is meant to raise the sense of renunciation, while considering other people's kindness is to develop gratitude ( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.031.than.html ). Neither are about establishing the concept that there is an invisible connection. And the reason for that is that all beings are responsible for their own actions and reap the fruits of their own deeds ( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html ).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 25th, 2018 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?
Content:
Polarbear said:
is just interconnected or if also everything is part of something bigger

Astus wrote:
Interconnected means how one thing is always caused and sustained by other factors, in other words, nothing is self-reliant. In case of a human body, it cannot function without air and food for instance. Contemplating that sort of dependency one should recognise that the body cannot be trusted, as it exists only because of factors we do not control.
The point of the teaching of interdependence is not to imagine some sort of magical bond between all beings, but to recognise how fragile and causally bound life is. Then it becomes clearer that assuming a oneness or something bigger is also the wrong approach that looks for stability where there is none.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 20th, 2018 at 7:23 PM
Title: Re: original as misnomer
Content:
Supramundane said:
Some Zen masters seem to advocate such a state of non-conceptual thoughts as the goal of meditation, changing the awareness of observing the world into becoming part of it.

Astus wrote:
What sort of Zen is that? Huineng is quite clear on the matter of what is the proper method and what is a mistake:

"The most important thing is not to become attached to emptiness. If you empty your minds and sit in quietude, this is to become attached to the emptiness of blankness. ... Furthermore, there are deluded people who empty their minds and sit in quietude without thinking of anything whatsoever, claiming that this is great."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 28-29)

"What is nonthought? If in seeing all the dharmas, the mind is not defiled or attached, this is nonthought. [The mind’s] functioning pervades all locations, yet it is not attached to all the locations. Just purify the fundamental mind, causing the six consciousnesses to emerge from the six [sensory] gates, [causing one to be] without defilement or heterogeneity within the six types of sensory data (literally, the “six dusts”), autonomous in the coming and going [of mental phenomena], one’s penetrating function without stagnation. This is the samādhi of prajñā, the autonomous emancipation. This is called the practice of nonthought.
“If one does not think of the hundred things in order to cause thought to be eradicated, this is bondage within the Dharma. This is called an extreme view."
(ch 2, p 33-34)

"Nonthought is to be without thought in the context of thoughts."
(ch 4, p 43)

Supramundane said:
However, IMO, if our goal in life is to recapture some sort of Eden of childhood, whereby we think like a child and are unable to avail ourselves of language, we would be no further ahead.

Astus wrote:
The Buddha himself rejected such an approach:

"If an individual is endowed with these four qualities, I do not describe him as consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. Rather, he stands on the same level as a stupid baby boy lying on its back. Which four? There is the case where he does no evil action with his body, speaks no evil speech, resolves on no evil resolve, and maintains himself with no evil means of livelihood. If an individual is endowed with these four qualities, I do not describe him as consummate in what is skillful, foremost in what is skillful, an invincible contemplative attained to the highest attainments. Rather, he stands on the same level as a stupid baby boy lying on its back."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.078.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 20th, 2018 at 3:40 PM
Title: Re: original as misnomer
Content:
Supramundane said:
how then can there be an 'original mind' or 'true self'???

Astus wrote:
The purpose of such terms is to encourage people, to inspire, to posit an attractive goal.

"“Self” is what “buddha” means. “Permanence” is what “dharma body” means. “Bliss” is what “nirvāṇa” means. “Purity” is what “dharma” means.
...
“Nonself” [actually] denotes “saṃsāra.” “Self” denotes “tathāgata.” “Impermanence” denotes “śrāvakas” and “pratyekabuddhas.” “Permanence” denotes the “dharma body of tathāgatas.” “Pain” (*duḥkha) denotes “all other paths.” Bliss (*sukha) denotes “nirvāṇa” itself. “Impurity” denotes “created dharmas.” “Purity” denotes “the true teaching of the buddhas and bodhisattvas.” All these are what I call the “noninversions.” It is by means of what is not inverted that one can understand the meaning of letters. If you want to separate yourself from the four inversions, you must understand permanence, bliss, purity, and self in this way."
(Nirvana Sutra, vol 1, BDK ed, p 59, 60-61)

"the reason why the Tathagatas who are Arhats and Fully-Enlightened Ones, teach the doctrine pointing to the Tathagata-garbha is to make the ignorant cast aside their fear when they listen to the teaching of egolessness and to have them realise the state of non-discrimination and imagelessness."
(Lankavatara Sutra, 2.28, tr Suzuki)

"[The sutras of the second turning of the wheel of Dharma] state in numerous places
that all knowable [phenomena] are in all ways empty like a cloud, a dream, or an illusion.
Why is it then, that in [the sutras of the third turning of the wheel of Dharma]
the Buddha, having said this, declared that buddha nature is present within beings?

With regard to faintheartedness, contempt for inferior beings,
perceiving the untrue, disparaging the true nature,
and exceeding self-cherishing, he said this to persuade those
who have any of these five to abandon their defects.

The final truth is in every respect
devoid of anything compounded.
The poisons, karma, and their product
are said to be like a cloud and so on."
(Uttaratantra, v 156-158, in Buddha Nature, p 40-41)

Supramundane said:
do the three bodies --the Nirmanakaya, Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya --- correspond to:

1) physical body, mental body and the Law
2) Body, Mind and Enlightenment
3) Form, Essence and Clarity
4) Body, Mind and Emptiness
5) Body, Mind and Rainbow Body?

Does one mediate between the other two?

Astus wrote:
The nirmanakaya is how ordinary beings perceive/conceive a buddha, i.e. the human aspect. The sambhogakaya is how arya-bodhisattvas perceive/conceive a buddha, i.e. the devotional and meditational aspect. The dharmakaya is the true nature of a buddha, i.e. emptiness, free from perceptions/conceptions.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 18th, 2018 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: original as misnomer
Content:
Supramundane said:
Perhaps the Trikaya is a reflection of the middle way too?

Astus wrote:
Not really. The trikaya doctrine is meant to explain the different aspects of a buddha.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 16th, 2018 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: original as misnomer
Content:
Supramundane said:
I often come across references to Original Mind, Nature, etc.in discussions of Buddhism (especially Zen).

Astus wrote:
If you want the East Asian teachings on such matters, start with the Awakening of Faith in Mahayana. It talks of "original enlightenment" (benjue 本覺).

"The essence of Mind is free from thoughts. The characteristic of that which is free from thoughts is analogous to that of the sphere of empty space that pervades everywhere. The one [without any second, i.e., the absolute] aspect of the world of reality (dharmadhatu) is none other than the undifferentiated dharmakaya, the “essence body” of the Tathagata. [Since the essence of Mind is] grounded on the dharmakaya, it is to be called the original enlightenment. Why? Because “original enlightenment” indicates [the essence of Mind (a priori)] in contradistinction to [the essence of Mind in) the process of actualization of enlightenment; the process of actualization of enlightenment is none other than [the process of integrating] the identity with the original enlightenment."
(Awakening of Faith, BDK ed, p 17)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 15th, 2018 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Content:
Astus wrote:
"Depending on whether one is using the Mahamudra or Dzogchen approach, there are different terminologies, but the actual training is essentially the same."
( https://www.lionsroar.com/two-great-paths/ )

"Although the teachings on essence mahamudra and dzogchen of the natural state use different terminology, in actuality they do not differ at all. ...
As the great master Trangpo Terton Sherab Oser wrote:
Mahamudra and dzogchen
Differ in words but not in meaning.
In terms of ground, path, and fruition, ground mahamudra is the nonarising essence, unobstructed nature, and expression manifest in manifold ways. The dzogchen teachings describe these three aspects as essence, nature, and compassion."
(Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, in Lamp of Mahamudra, p xiii, xiv)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 14th, 2018 at 4:45 PM
Title: Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen
Content:
DesertDweller said:
I'm interested in the essential difference, if any, between the Dzogchen pointing-out and Zen's.

Astus wrote:
Pointing out instruction can have different meanings in Vajrayana. First of all, it is useful to differentiate between the instruction given and the instruction received. The instruction given can have various forms, including the common threefold set of mental, symbolic, and verbal transmission. The instruction received can have three main forms, as something learnt, as something understood, and as something recognised. Ideally a pointing out happens when the listener gets a taste of the so called natural state. Practically I'd say it's more often the case that one receives the instructions as a teaching, then goes to comprehend and realise it on one's own.

Zen does not have any formal set of pointing out instructions, because on the one hand it is always up to the situation, and on the other the student has to make the journey on his own (i.e. the teacher's job is not to feed people with more ideas, but to assist in overcoming pre-existing concepts).

DesertDweller said:
what is it about these Dzogchen instructions that makes them "work"?  And do they "work" differently than they do in Zen?

Astus wrote:
Both Zen and Vajrayana have prajnaparamita as their essence. What distinguishes them are the assisting methods applied. Vajrayana focuses on devotion, hence guruyoga is the core practice. Zen is somewhat more diverse and flexible, but taking the most common method of Kanna Zen (看話禪), there are three essentials (三要): great faith, great determination, and great doubt (大信根, 大憤志, 大疑情), from which the feeling of doubt is emphasised the most, thus the saying: Great doubt, great awakening. Small doubt, small awakening. No doubt, no awakening. (大疑大悟。小疑小悟。不疑不悟。) The feelings of devotion and doubt are somewhat on the opposite sides, however, they are equally understood to be important emotional supports for gaining insight, even if they don't function the same way (that is, in Zen doubt is eventually broken through, while in Vajrayana devotion is perfected to the highest level where the guru is the nature of mind).

DesertDweller said:
do the pointing-out instructions in Dzogchen actually "work" as an "initiation" (empowerment), or merely as an effective means, accompanied by a certain grace, of directing the student to his/her Mind?

Astus wrote:
Empowerment is itself an effective means of directing the student to the nature of mind. A pointing out instruction is not exactly an empowerment in the sense that it focuses only on showing the student the nature of mind, but does not provide a whole set of creation and completion practice of a deity. That's why a pointing out instruction is equated to the fourth empowerment, but not the first three.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2018 at 6:23 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
if the Path is different the Fruit is also

Astus wrote:
Buddha-nature is obscured by the two types of defilements. Once they are gone, that is complete buddhahood. So it is understood to be the path and fruit in all Mahayana. How is Bön any different from that?

"Twofold wisdom causes release from the two veils.
Since there is the one that is free from ideation
and the one ensuing from this in post-meditation,
it is held that there are [two] primordial wisdoms."
(Uttaratantra v 174, in Buddha Nature, p 186)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 13th, 2018 at 4:34 PM
Title: Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen
Content:
DesertDweller said:
would you say there is the substantial difference between these and what we learn in Zen about the nature of the Mind, for instance in the Platform Sutra or Bodhidharma's sermons?

Astus wrote:
All Buddhist schools agree that the nature of the mind is insubstantial.

"Those who wish to become the Sugata’s Disciples,
Or Pratyekabuddhas, or likewise, Kings of the Dharma –
Without resort to this Patience they cannot reach their respective goals.
They move across, but their eyes are not on the other shore."
(Ratnagunasamcayagatha 2.38)

"The Buddha’s offspring, the Disciples and Pratyekabuddhas,
The gods, and the dharmas which lead to the ease and happiness of all the world, -as many as there are,
They all have issued from wisdom, the foremost perfection,
And yet wisdom does not ever get exhausted, nor does it increase."
(28.466)

"Whether one wants to train on the level of Disciple, or Pratyekabuddha, or Bodhisattva, - one should listen to this perfection of wisdom, take it up, bear it in mind, recite it, study it, spread it among others, and in this very perfection of wisdom should one be trained and exert oneself."
(PP8K 1.2)

"Since thus, in ultimate truth and as things stand, such a dharma which could constitute a being whose heart is set on enlightenment cannot be apprehended, where do you get the idea that “this one belongs to the vehicle of the Disciples, that one to the vehicle of the Pratyekabuddhas, that one to the great vehicle”?"
(16.4)

"There is really no establishment of various vehicles, and so I speak of the one vehicle; but in order to carry the ignorant I talk of a variety of vehicles."
(Lankavatara Sutra, 2.56)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 12th, 2018 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities
Content:
Astus wrote:
The three/four bodies exist inherently and perfectly as the nature of mind according to both Dzogchen and Mahamudra. What more could one ever attain than buddhahood?

"The Dharmakaya is the emptiness of the natural state of reality; the Sambhogakaya is the clarity of the natural state; the Nirmanakaya is the movement of energy that arises from the inseparability of emptiness and clarity.
...
"In Dzogchen, realization means understanding that the mind is Buddha. The empty nature of mind is Dharmakaya, the clarity of mind is Sambhogakaya, and all the manifestations of mind (including the passions) are Nirmanakaya. ... When we practice, the emptiness we discover within the mind, within ourselves, is the Dharmakaya; the subtle existence of clarity, self-understanding, is the Sambhogakaya; and whatever concepts, memories, or passions manifest are the Nirmanakaya."
(Tenzin Wangyal: Wonders of the Natural Mind, p 157, 163)

"In the teaching there is an explanation of the three dimensions, the three kayas of the Base, Path, and Fruit. If you read many books, particularly Mahayana texts, then you understand that these three kayas explain some qualities of enlightened beings. In the real sense, it is not only the explanation of enlightened beings, but also the explanation of our condition. It is very important to know this from the beginning. Essence is empty, and is Dharmakaya. Nature is clarity, and means manifestation, and is Sambhogakaya. And Energy without interruption means Nirmanakaya. When we are in a state of contemplation, we are in those three states. When we have that knowledge through introduction, we have discovered our real Base."
(Chogyal Namkhai Norbu: Dzogchen Teachings, p 78)

"one's mind that does not exist anywhere and is free from all conceptual elaborations and is experienced as empty space is the dharmakaya. Yet this emptiness is not like nothing whatsoever or like inanimate matter, rather this emptiness is self-cognizing, self luminous awareness with the characteristic of manifold cognition, this is the sambhogakaya. The unobstructed radiance of this emptiness manifesting its own forms as manifold objects is the nirmanakaya."
(Karmapa Wangchug Dorje: Mahamudra - The Ocean of True Meaning, p 292)

"The nonarising essence of the mind itself is dharmakaya, its unobstructed expression is sambhogakaya, and its function manifesting in any way whatsoever is nirmanakaya. These three kayas are again spontaneously present as an indivisible identity. To recognize and settle on this natural state is called perfectly realizing the faultless and correct view. A view different from this-a view or meditation imputed through intellectual concepts of assumption or through attributes of reference such as being free or not free from extremes, high or special, good or bad, and so forth-has never been taught as the view of mahamudra."
(Tsele Natsok Rangdrol: Lamp of Mahamudra, p 13)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2018 at 3:49 PM
Title: Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?
Content:
Motova said:
How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?

Astus wrote:
From the Platform Sutra (ch 6, BDK ed, p 52-53):

"I have a formless verse, which, if you are able to recite it, will cause you upon hearing these words to melt away in a single instant the delusions and transgressions of numerous eons. The verse goes:

Deluded people cultivate blessings but do not cultivate the Way,
Saying only that to cultivate blessings is the Way.
The blessings from charity and offerings may be unlimited,
But the three poisons are originally created in the mind.

Attempting to cultivate blessings and wanting to extinguish their transgressions,
They may attain blessings in later lives, but their transgressions will still exist.
They should simply eradicate the conditions of transgression within their minds:
This is called true repentance within the self-nature.

Suddenly enlightened to the true transgression of the Mahayana,
Eradicating the false and practicing the correct, they are without transgression.
Studying the Way is to always contemplate the self-nature:
This is to be identical with all the buddhas.

Our patriarchs have transmitted only this sudden teaching,
And you should all vow to see the nature and be identical to them.
If you wish to see the dharmakāya in the future,
Transcend the characteristics of the dharmas and wash them out of your minds.

Make an effort to see for yourself, don’t be despondent!
Later, in a single moment, you will suddenly cut off [your thoughts, thus] ending them forever.
If you would be enlightened to the Mahayana and see the nature,
Reverentially hold your palms together [in the anjalimudrā] and seek it in utter sincerity."


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2018 at 3:45 PM
Title: Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?
Content:
PeterC said:
Decent summary of the relevant citations here: https://info-buddhism.com/sangha_schism.html

Astus wrote:
Apart from the Parikuppa Sutta (AN 5.129), that's all Vinaya proceedings. There is also the Sanghabheda Sutta (Iti 18) not mentioned in that article.

As for a not Vinaya but Sutra definition, here's a Mahayana take:

"And what is meant by disrupting the sangha? When the assembly of different characteristics that form the skandhas is utterly destroyed, this is what is meant by disrupting the sangha."
(Lankavatara Sutra, ch 57, tr Red Pine)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 5th, 2018 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?
Content:
WeiHan said:
5. Splitting the Sangha - I have read that this is also impossible unless you lived in Buddha's time.

PeterC said:
It's possible today, but you would need to cause a certain number of members of the ordained Sangha to oppose others on a specific doctrinal topic - so basically it's very unlikely that you would have achieved this without consciously trying to do so

Malcolm said:
No, Weihan is correct, in fact, just the other day during the Lamdre Triple vision teachings, HH Sakya Trizin mentioned this specifically.

Astus wrote:
Vasubandhu writes about the schism that causes birth in Avici for a kalpa:

"Where does schism take place?
100b. Elsewhere.
Not where the Tathagata is found Schism is impossible where the Master is to be found, for the Tathagata cannot be conquered and his word is full of authority."
(AKB 4.100, vol 2, p 683)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2018 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?
Content:
PeterC said:
Sanghabheda is defined pretty well in the sutras.  I can dig out the references if you’d like.  It is, as they say, a thing.

Astus wrote:
If you have a different definition, please provide it.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2018 at 6:46 PM
Title: Re: How Does One Purify the Five Heinous Crimes in Sutra?
Content:
WeiHan said:
5. Splitting the Sangha - I have read that this is also impossible unless you lived in Buddha's time.

PeterC said:
It's possible today, but you would need to cause a certain number of members of the ordained Sangha to oppose others on a specific doctrinal topic - so basically it's very unlikely that you would have achieved this without consciously trying to do so

Astus wrote:
Doctrines do not define the Sangha, precepts do. So someone would actually have to reconstruct the Vinaya in order to cause a split. And that has not really happened, ever.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 4th, 2018 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: Nagarjuna on Awareness
Content:
Tirisilex said:
I'm talking about like that Yogacara and cittamatra says that only the mind exists.

Astus wrote:
Neither Asanga nor Vasubandhu say that somehow mind would be ultimately real.

"But how does he understand the reality pattern? By abandoning any idea about conscious construction-only!"
(Asanga: Mahayanasamgraha, ch 3, BKD ed, p 65)

"One does abide in the realization
Of mere [representation of] consciousness
When one does not perceive also a supporting consciousness,
For, the graspable objects being absent,
There cannot either be the grasping of that,
[Namely, the grasping of the supporting consciousness]."
(Vasubandhu: Trimsika, v 28, tr Kochumuttom)

As for Nagarjuna, how could anything be exempt from being empty, when even nirvana is such?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 28th, 2018 at 5:44 PM
Title: Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?
Content:
Temicco said:
Yes, it just does not present things in the same way as vernacular teachings.

Astus wrote:
The bodhisattva path describes how one grows in abilities, masters teachings and samadhis, and eliminates various hindrances. How is that any different?

Examples related to specific samadhis:

"To learn archery, a student has to practice for a long time to acquire the skill. Because of his longtime practice, he now shoots without using his mind, and all his arrows hit the target. I have trained in the same way. When I started learning the inconceivable samādhi, I had to focus my mind on one object. After practicing for a long time, I have come to accomplishment. I now am constantly in this samādhi without thinking."
( http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra13.html )

"One who wants to develop insight into true suchness should ponder that one’s mind in its true nature has neither birth nor death, nor does it abide in perception through faculties, such as seeing, hearing, and knowing. One should ignore the thoughts of differentiation. Then one can gradually pass the four samādhis of the formless realm—Boundless Space, Boundless Consciousness, Nothingness, and Neither with Nor without Perception—and attain the Samādhi of the Likeness of Emptiness. After one has attained the Samādhi of the Likeness of Emptiness, one’s coarse differentiation through sensory reception, perception, mental processing, and consciousness will not be active. From then on, one’s training and learning will be under the protection and care of beneficent learned friends who have great lovingkindness and compassion. As one trains assiduously, overcoming all obstacles, one can gradually enter the Samādhi of the Silent Mind. Once one has attained this samādhi, one can then enter the Samādhi of the One Action. After one has entered this Samādhi of the One Action, one will see innumerable Buddhas and will take wide-ranging and far-reaching actions, with one’s mind set in the Position of Firm Belief."
( http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra12.html )

An example for the stages and practices:

"Good son, you should understand that all these stages are included in the four purifications and the eleven aspects. The four purifications are able to encompass the ten stages because the purification of superior intention encompasses the first stage, the purification of superior discipline encompasses the second stage, the purification of superior thought encompasses the third stage, and the purification of superior wisdom encompasses the excellences evolved in the subsequent stages. You should understand that [this purification] is able to encompass all the stages from the fourth to the last Buddha stage. You should understand that in this fashion these four purifications are able to encompass all the stages."
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 7, BDK ed, p 77)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 28th, 2018 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?
Content:
Temicco said:
Sure, but I am wondering about its relation to Shakyamuni in particular.

Astus wrote:
The Jatakas tell many stories of his past lives. So do numerous sutras. I am unaware of any particular scripture describing Siddhartha's journey on the bodhisattva path in a systematic manner.

Temicco said:
Also, sutras generally don't present the path quite like a tradition's own teachings do, to my knowledge.

Astus wrote:
The Avatamsaka Sutra is one of the main sources in East Asian Buddhism, as it is the basis of both the 10 bhumis and the 52 stages system.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 27th, 2018 at 3:18 PM
Title: Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?
Content:
Temicco said:
Are there any Mahayana teachings, sutra or otherwise, that discuss the matter of Shakyamuni stabilizing his awareness of his nature and bringing it to its full expression?

Astus wrote:
Any account, description, or explanation of the bodhisattva path is that.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 26th, 2018 at 3:41 PM
Title: Re: Dharmavidya's Authorization to teach
Content:
SonamTashi said:
if he can't prove his own transmissions and permissions from all of these schools are legit, should he be taken seriously at all?

Astus wrote:
The question is rather why take someone seriously as a teacher. Transmissions and permissions (if and when they even exist) are  representatives of a certain level of commitment, effort, and learning. But it is what is represented that can make someone worthy of respect.
To be a teacher, the basic requirement is to know more than the student. To be a teacher of a specific subject, the requirement is knowledge of that subject. To be a Dharma teacher, the requirement is that what is taught is in accordance with the Buddhadharma.
So what could be looked into is whether Dharmavidya teaches what he claims to teach.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 20th, 2018 at 5:58 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment
Content:
shanyin said:
How do you attain enlightenment in Mahayana Buddhism?

Astus wrote:
With bodhicitta and the six paramitas.

For more:

http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/bsam-ez_book_page.htm
http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/n6p_book_page.htm
http://www.kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/vbcitta_book_page.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattvacary%C4%81vat%C4%81ra
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Shikshasamucchaya


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 14th, 2018 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: If the Mahayana Sutras were not spoken by the Buddha what authority do they hold?
Content:
ItsRaining said:
So do you think basing concepts of the Buddha from expansions of logical implications is accurate or something that should be relied on? For example, the Lotus Sutra says:
Because the Dharma that the buddhas have attained is foremost, unique, and difficult to understand. No one but the
buddhas can completely know the real aspects of all dharmas—that is to say their character, nature, substance, potential, function, cause, condition, result, effect, and essential unity.”

Astus wrote:
The higher/greater wisdom/knowledge of a buddha is accepted by all Buddhist schools. For instance, a buddha is omniscient, as the Patisambhidamagga (ch 72, PTS ed, p 131, tr Nanamoli) states: "It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is omniscient knowledge".

ItsRaining said:
What Mahayana ideas are found in Northern Abhidharma works?

Astus wrote:
I don't know such a list, but here are some examples: intermediate state, the various differences between the three vehicles, the buddha qualities, the difference between afflictive and non-afflictive ignorance, and even the emptiness of dharmas (in the Satyasiddhi-shastra).


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 13th, 2018 at 4:07 PM
Title: Re: If the Mahayana Sutras were not spoken by the Buddha what authority do they hold?
Content:
ItsRaining said:
what of the texts which speak from the perspective of the Buddha about the state of being a Buddha and other extremely high attainments?

Astus wrote:
The descriptions of the paths and attainments are works based on the Buddha's words just like other parts of the Dharma. Even if they are not found in the early texts, there is a logical development, so they can be viewed as teachings drawing out the implications, in other words, exegetical and explanatory writings. Furthermore, many of the so called Mahayana ideas can be found in Northern Indian abhidharma works.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 2nd, 2018 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Romance of the Heart Sutra
Content:
Astus wrote:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 24th, 2018 at 4:48 PM
Title: Re: Beginning
Content:
Mila said:
as a pure practitioner, how should one consume food?

Astus wrote:
"And how is physical food to be regarded? Suppose a couple, husband & wife, taking meager provisions, were to travel through a desert. With them would be their only baby son, dear & appealing. Then the meager provisions of the couple going through the desert would be used up & depleted while there was still a stretch of the desert yet to be crossed. The thought would occur to them, 'Our meager provisions are used up & depleted while there is still a stretch of this desert yet to be crossed. What if we were to kill this only baby son of ours, dear & appealing, and make dried meat & jerky. That way — chewing on the flesh of our son — at least the two of us would make it through this desert. Otherwise, all three of us would perish.' So they would kill their only baby son, loved & endearing, and make dried meat & jerky. Chewing on the flesh of their son, they would make it through the desert. While eating the flesh of their only son, they would beat their breasts, [crying,] 'Where have you gone, our only baby son? Where have you gone, our only baby son?' Now what do you think, monks: Would that couple eat that food playfully or for intoxication, or for putting on bulk, or for beautification?"
"No, lord."
"Wouldn't they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?"
"Yes, lord."
"In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded. When physical food is comprehended, passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended. When passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended, there is no fetter bound by which a disciple of the noble ones would come back again to this world."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.063.than.html; see also: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel105.html )

"O Subhūti, if you are able to be universally same about eating, then the dharmas are also universally same; if the dharmas are universally same, you should also be universally same about eating. If you can practice begging like this, you may accept the food.
If, Subhūti, you refrain from eradicating licentiousness, anger, and stupidity, yet are not equipped with them; if you do not destroy the body, yet accord with the single characteristic; if you do not extinguish stupidity and affection, yet generate wisdom and emancipation; if you use the characteristics of the five transgressions to attain emancipation, without either emancipation or bondage; if you do not perceive the four noble truths, yet do not fail to perceive the truths; neither attaining the results [of becoming a streamenterer (srotāpanna), and so on,] nor not attaining the results; neither being an ordinary [unenlightened] person nor transcending the state (lit., “dharma”) of ordinary person; neither being a sage nor not being a sage; accomplishing all the dharmas yet transcending the characteristics of the dharmas — then you can accept this food.
Subhūti, you should only accept this food if you can neither see the Buddha nor hear the Dharma, nor the six teachers of heterodox paths— Pūraṇa Kāśyapa, Maskarin Gośālīputra, Saṃjayin Vairaṭīputra, Ajita Keśakambala, Kakuda Kātyāyana, and Nirgrantha Jñātiputra, who were your teachers, following whom you left home, [so that] at the defeat of those teachers you were also defeated—then you can accept this food.
If, Subhūti, you can enter into the heterodox views and not reach the other shore; abide in the eight difficulties and not attain the absence of difficulty; identify with the afflictions and transcend the pure dharmas; attain the samādhi of noncontention; if all sentient beings generate this concentration; if the donors do not name you their field of blessings; if those making offerings to you fall into the three evil destinations; if you join hands with the host of Māras and make them your co-workers; if you do not differentiate yourself from the host of Māras and the sensory troubles; if you bear resentment toward all sentient beings; if you revile the Buddha, denigrate the Dharma, and do not enter the Sangha; and if you never attain extinction— if you are like this then you can accept the food."
(Vimalakirti Sutra, ch 3, BDK ed, p 88-89)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 24th, 2018 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Vasana said:
*2-truths alarm bells ring*
Individual karma may ultimately be fictional but it's still conventionally functional as the ongoing flow of the Twelve Nidānas and the serial linking of the aggregates between lives.

Astus wrote:
Why ring?

"Phenomena alone flow on"


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 23rd, 2018 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
I think that the major mistake you are making is in reifying the personal/subjective.  You seem quite happy to point to the emptiness of everything, except yourself.  You grasp at the importance of your subjective experience but do not seem to recognise that ultimately this is empty too.

Astus wrote:
So far it's been only about the concepts of collective and then shared karma. I might note here that I have not gone into discussing how they are empty, rather how those ideas are contrary to individual karma. As for the nature of individual karma, it is of course fictional.

"There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right."
(Visuddhimagga 19.20)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 23rd, 2018 at 7:47 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Vasana said:
To me it seems to reconcile the points made in this thread. A Summary of Shared and Unshared Abodes
there are no external objects to function as observed conditions aside from consciousness, nor are the external environment or other seemingly shared appearances anything more than the objective aspect of the inner consciousness.

Astus wrote:
Good catch. The difference is that in this topic it is through the way karma is defined that it can be deduced - at least in my interpretation -  that experiences are exclusively personal as a consequence of karma being personal.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 23rd, 2018 at 2:07 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Malcolm said:
Yes, this is what we mean when we say that one can have a direct perception of another's mind.

Astus wrote:
In that case, knowing other's mind is not a counter-example to all experiences being within the scope of individual karma.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 22nd, 2018 at 3:51 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
But now you are avoiding my question again: Of course I can. The fact that there can be mutually understood communication is a testament to that. The fact that teaching and learning can occur is a testament to that. The fact that socialisation occurs is a testament to that.
Are you denying these occur?

Astus wrote:
I do not deny the occurrence. What I say is that they can only occur https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28365&p=444984#p444984.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 22nd, 2018 at 3:47 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Malcolm said:
Astus, surely you know what a pratyakṣa is and what it entails.

Astus wrote:
"The cognition in which there is no conceptual construction is perception."
(Dignaga: Pratyaksapariccheda, in Dignaga on Perception, p 25, tr Hattori)

However:

"By the power of meditation the yogin can have such clear representations that they appear to him almost like the specific forms of the mind of another person, just as deities will bestow grace on a person by appearing in their dreams etc. So even the yogin does not directly grasp another person's mind through his representations. He can be said to know another person's mind only in the sense that the representations which appear in his own mind have the same form as those in another person's mind. therefore yogipratyaksa is called perception only for the sake of convenience."
(Dharmakirti: Samtanantara-siddhi, in Mind Only, p 217-218, tr Wood)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 22nd, 2018 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Malcolm said:
an image is a representation. All perceptions of characteristics are representational.

Astus wrote:
Then why do you call that a direct perception?

Malcolm said:
For example, there is a story of a monk of whom devas were fond. They cast theirs mind forth one day, looking for this monk, and unable to locate him, they went to the Buddha and asked what had become of him. The Buddha replied, "Why, he became an arhat, he is sitting right there in samadhi."
What had happened? The arhat in samadhi was not grasping any signs, and so his mind disappeared from the mental sight of these devas.

Astus wrote:
Check out Dogen's Tashintsu (BDK ed: vol 4, ch 79). Aside from stories, do you know any text that explains knowing other's minds like that? By the way, the standard list of what kinds of minds are perceived includes whether it is liberated or not.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 22nd, 2018 at 5:43 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
Even if I have no grasp of mathematics, I know that two individual phenomenon make a pair.

Astus wrote:
How do you know? Is that an information inherent in the perceived object, or is it rather an understanding arrived at by inference?

Grigoris said:
So you believe a Buddha's mind is conditioned and thus cannot see things for what they are.  You believe that a Buddha is afflicted by ignorance.

Astus wrote:
A mind is conditioned, because it is functional, and functioning requires change, causes, etc.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 22nd, 2018 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Malcolm said:
can perceive the intrinsic characteristics of the conceptual image existing in the other person's mind. It does not mean they share the same "thought."

Astus wrote:
That is a perception of a reflection, a copy, a simulacrum of those characteristics, in other words, a representation. Why? Simply because it is the god's perception of a characteristic, not that other being's. To make it not merely a representation, there should be thoughts apart from minds.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 22nd, 2018 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
For example:  1+1=2 REGARDLESS of your mental conditioning.

Astus wrote:
Mathematical truths mean nothing to those who know nothing about mathematics, i.e. they do not exist for them. If you propose that mathematics is real, independent of minds, that might be so, but they still do not exist for those without relevant knowledge.

Grigoris said:
In most situations communication occurs via a medium.But it seems that you believe that communication cannot occur at all, unless it is directly from mind to mind.

Astus wrote:
Let's review again what I said:

Karma and its results are strictly individual ( https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=444263#p444263 ).
Experience is defined by one's own interpretation ( https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=444461#p444461 & https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=444463#p444463 ).
Therefore:
Individual experiences are the results of karma of the individual ( https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=444540#p444540 & https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=444727#p444727 ).
Interaction with others is within the scope of individual karma ( https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=444732#p444732 ).

Grigoris said:
If that is your hypothesis, you have to prove it.

Astus wrote:
Which one of the above you do not agree with? Is you view then, that:
- Karma is not strictly individual?
- Ignorance is not the root of dependent origination?
- Karma is not responsible for one's experiences?

I presume it is the third one. In other words, there must be exceptions from what occurs to a being, that are not the products of one's karma and not distorted by one's mental conditioning.

Grigoris said:
So you think that a Buddha's awakened mind is conditioned?

Astus wrote:
A mind is necessarily conditioned. But that's another matter. The problem with assuming that not all experiences are the results of karma means that even when one has attained liberation from karma, all sorts of experiences continue to occur that one can never be free from. In other words, there is no liberation from a conditioned mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 21st, 2018 at 8:03 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Malcolm said:
The above is mistaken, and is posited on a realist perspective.

Astus wrote:
What do you mean by direct perception of others' minds then?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 21st, 2018 at 8:01 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Astus wrote:
you cannot even show me what you see, what you think.

Grigoris said:
Of course I can.

Astus wrote:
Showing it would mean that I experience exactly the way you experience, that my visual consciousness is identical to yours, etc.

Grigoris said:
The fact that there can be mutually understood communication is a testament to that. The fact that teaching and learning can occur is a testament to that. The fact that socialisation occurs is a testament to that.

Astus wrote:
Those do not explain how within anyone's experience there can be something independent of one's mental conditioning. Even when there are group activities, each member experiences and comprehends alone, without any means to perceive with the mind of others.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 21st, 2018 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Malcolm said:
minds can appear directly to each other without the need for some intermediary. This is what the ability to know the minds of others shows us. Thus is not an ability restricted to awakened folks.
How does it work? A mind which grasps signs is something which can appear to the mind of others.

Astus wrote:
It is exactly direct perception that cannot happen, as that would mean having the same state of mind. What might be said is that one can conceive a representation of another mind, just as one can see only representations of physical objects.

"[Consciousness] is only said to perceive the minds of others because it is like a mirror in which appear seemingly external objects. It cannot immediately perceive [others' minds]. What it immediately perceives are its own transformations. Therefore, a scripture says, "There is not the slightest dharma that is capable of seizing other dharmas. It is just that when consciousness is born, it appears resembling images and is said to seize things." As with having the minds of others as objects, so with form, etc."
(Cheng Weishi Lun, ch 7, in Three Texts on Consciousness Only, BDK ed, p 239; in Tat: p 523; http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT/T1585_,31,0039c15:1585_,31,0039c16.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Queequeg said:
You're skipping several steps.

Astus wrote:
Going with the abhidharma model makes no difference, as the external factors are not experienced, only the resultant consciousness is what is registered at all. There the moments of sensory consciousnesses are meaningless, it is only with the processing of impressions by the mind-consciousness that any basic apprehension can occur.

Queequeg said:
this view of the individual as being hermetically isolated in the mind is a biased view.

Astus wrote:
Even when the original source of a consciousness is an external object, since such objects do not possess any meaning or value, everything is necessarily interpreted and defined according to each beings mental conditioning. In what way is one not bound by one's preconceptions?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Queequeg said:
What you are arguing is a philosophical point that presumes our subjective consciousness is some unique mystery.

Astus wrote:
The argument is regarding the subjective experience. Brain scans and biological analysis have nothing to do with it.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Queequeg said:
You equate the perception of an appearance with "having thoughts put into one's mind"

Astus wrote:
Perception exists in consciousness. If one can make another's consciousness perceive something, that is no different from being able to put a thought into another's mind, as it means one can control another's mind.

Queequeg said:
Do we need to break down how that is silly?

Astus wrote:
Please do.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Queequeg said:
No, it doesn't.

Astus wrote:
Why not? The mind stream consists of one momentary thought followed by another momentary thought. If there is a moment that is identical for two streams, it becomes the single cause of the following moment of thought, thus there is only one stream of thought left.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Malcolm said:
The material aggregate is defined as all physical sense organs and AND objects made of the four elements.

Astus wrote:
There are both sense-faculties and sense-objects for all 6 sense-fields, and from their meeting arises the respective sense-consciousnesses. Or this can be looked at from the experiential perspective, where there are sense-consciousnesses conceptually split into faculties and objects.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
of course there are shared sense fields, even if we experience them individually.

Astus wrote:
As Malcolm said, what I meant was that things are experienced individually. What you see as light is not what I see as light. What you think as light is not what I think as light. Furthermore, you cannot even show me what you see, what you think.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Malcolm said:
the traces of other minds are sufficiently strong to generate appearances for ours.

Astus wrote:
Such a possibility would mean that one could put thoughts into another's mind, and if that could happen, then one stream of consciousness could cross another stream and become one.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
So we are not interacting?

Astus wrote:
We are interacting in our own minds. We each have the concept of communicating with another person, but it all happens within the scope of separate minds. Experience is individual, as there are no shared sense-fields, and the interpretation applied to experience is also individual.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 5:30 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
We know that all appearances have the nature of illusion, but this does not mean that there are no appearances.

Astus wrote:
Being illusion means it is conditioned by ignorance, it is distorted by mental habits, by karma. In other words, all beings experience what they project as the inner and outer world. That is why I say there is no shared karma, no mutual influence, rather the very idea that there are interacting beings is one of the core delusions.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 6:14 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
Yes, ultimately.  But at the relative level?  That's what we are talking about when it comes to Nirmanakaya.

Astus wrote:
It does explain the relative level being a product of the mind. In the case of ordinary beings, experiences are what a deluded mind imagines out of ignorance. The nirmanakaya that is seen by beings, it is called illusory, and it exists as the mistaken perception of deluded beings, who are, however, have the right level of merit to encounter a buddha in some form. Here is Mipham's summary for how the nirmanakaya can be understood:

"The appearance of bodily form is like the reflection of Indra, the resounding of enlightened voice is like the great drum of the gods, the pervasiveness of the knowledge and compassion of enlightened mind resembles a cloud, the various ways of displaying emanations resembles Brahma, the pervasiveness of wisdom is like the sun, the secret of enlightened mind is like a jewel, the secret of enlightened speech is like an echo, the secret of enlightened body is like the sky, and the deeds that benefit others are like the ground."
(Gateway to Knowledge, vol 3, 21.172)

Another explanation, from Jamgon Kongtrul's commentary on the Uttaratantra Shastra:

"Being of the nature of a [mere] representation,
the nirmana[kaya] is similar to the golden image."
...
"The nirmanakaya, which appears to all sentient beings in common, is like the golden image. Because of the power resulting from the realization of the absolute kaya, it has the effect or nature of appearing to the minds of the disciples as a mere representation of whatever form is suitable to train any of them."
(Buddha Nature, p 173)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Ogyen said:
We were talking about "coincidence" in the way you had posited

Astus wrote:
I simply put forward the reasons why no coincidence can happen, but that both good and bad experiences are the products of one's karma.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
So how does learning happen then? What is the role of a Buddha if, as you posit, essentially there is no interaction and influence between beings?

Astus wrote:
"If one wishes to see the Buddha, then one sees him. If one sees him, then one asks questions. If one asks, then one is answered, he hears the sutras and rejoices greatly. He reflects thus: “Where did the Buddha come from? Where did I go to?” and thinks to himself: “The Buddha came from nowhere, and I also went nowhere.” He thinks to himself:
The three realms—the realm of desire, the realm of form, and the formless realm—these three realms are simply made by thought. Whatever I think, that I see. The mind creates the Buddha. The mind itself sees him. The mind is the Buddha. The mind is the Tathāgata. The mind is my body, the mind sees the Buddha. The mind does not itself know the mind, the mind does not itself see the mind. A mind with conceptions is stupidity, a mind without conceptions is nirvana. There is nothing in these dharmas that can be enjoyed; they are all made by thinking. If thinking is nothing but empty, then anything that is thought is also utterly nonexistent."
(Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 26)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 20th, 2018 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Ogyen said:
Is it your doing that you were raped? No! So is it a coincidence because it isn't your doing?

Astus wrote:
Good and bad experiences are the result of good and bad deeds. That is the basic concept of how action and result work (see: https://suttacentral.net/mn135/en/bodhi ). Furthermore, the results are not produced by someone else, but everybody is an heir to one's own actions. At the same time, it is also not the case that there are really agents, it is only dependent origination ( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.18/en/bodhi; also https://suttacentral.net/sn12.37/en/bodhi ). In fact, not just one or two things, but the whole world is a product of dependent origination ( https://suttacentral.net/sn12.44/en/bodhi ). So, to say that there are things happening to oneself because of others' will or because of different independent factors, does not fit into what the Buddha taught about karma.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 19th, 2018 at 6:52 PM
Title: Re: On Buddhism and Nominalism
Content:
Malcolm said:
That dies not make Dharmas universals. A universal is cowness, for example.

Astus wrote:
But the dharmas could be called universals for actual instances of experience, however, I don't know of anyone who conceived a theoretical list of dharmas existing separately from dharmas as experience, hence they are not universals.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 19th, 2018 at 5:52 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Queequeg said:
If things were the way you say, there'd be no intelligible conversation between anyone.

Astus wrote:
Not exactly. If it were the case that one could influence the other, then one could make the other understand. However, even the Buddha could not enlighten Ananda nor change the mind of Devadatta.

Queequeg said:
I think your idealism is a handicap.

Astus wrote:
What I say is that because experiences are defined by one's mental conditioning, no matter what occurs, it is not because others' make it happen, or because of some external force, but because of one's own delusion. If it were the case that independent factors controlled one's experience, there would be nothing to be done about those, and neither one's behaviour nor one's mental purity would matter.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 19th, 2018 at 5:08 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Ogyen said:
where did the "sheer coincidence" idea come into play from?

Astus wrote:
If an experience is not a result of one's own doing, that means one can suffer the consequences of external causes and conditions. Those personally unrelated events were what I called coincidence, because anything can happen to anyone without the individual being responsible for them. So, if a branch falls on somebody, that is just "bad luck".


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 19th, 2018 at 4:27 PM
Title: Re: On Buddhism and Nominalism
Content:
Malcolm said:
All buddhist tenets (Sautrantika on up) apart from Sarvastivada, subscribe to Anya-apoha theory, which is the Buddhist refutation of truly existent universals.

Astus wrote:
It's not a question if they take those dharmas as empty or not, but whether they are conceived as elements behind conventional appearances. They are considered a background layer, even if there are other layers beyond.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 19th, 2018 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
it ridiculous to say that we do not effect each other through the actions of our three doors, when we so glaringly obviously do.

Astus wrote:
In other words, your view is that there are experiences that are independent of one's mental conditions (aka karma), that they happen to people because of sheer coincidence. Is that what you mean?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 19th, 2018 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: On Buddhism and Nominalism
Content:
Malcolm said:
Only in Sarvastivada.

Astus wrote:
How so? Who says that conventional phenomena are not based on dharmas?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 19th, 2018 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
We all live in a completely sealed and self-enclosed vacuum after all.

Astus wrote:
"Since the Buddhas have stated
That the world is conditioned by ignorance,
So why is it not reasonable [to assert]
That this world is [a result of] conceptualization?"
( http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/SixtyStanzas.pdf, v 37)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 19th, 2018 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Queequeg said:
As I understand, its not that we share karma with our fellows, but I think its fair to conceive that beings have complementary karma - our friends influence our thoughts, words and actions.

Astus wrote:
We hear what we "want" to hear, and listen to those who say things that we like, that way strengthening how we are conditioned.

Queequeg said:
We can influence each other to habituate thoughts, words and deeds.

Astus wrote:
Every experience is defined by one's interpretation. That's how ignorance is the root of samsara.

Queequeg said:
In acting out our karma, good and bad, others have complementary karma in the sense that when we harm others, those others were karmically inclined to suffer harm, and the same for helping others.

Astus wrote:
Sounds to me like a possible justification of evil acts.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 18th, 2018 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
The actions of white people in the past is ripening as anger against them.

Astus wrote:
That is not karma. If one is angry with another, that anger does not hurt the other person, it hurts the one who is angry. Furthermore, the anger is not caused by the other person, it is generated by one's own thinking.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 18th, 2018 at 8:00 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
shaunc said:
At the moment in South Africa there's political parties calling for the killing of white people. Considering white South Africa's previous treatment of black people couldn't this be a case of collective karma ripening.

Astus wrote:
It rather sounds like anger.

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html.3)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 18th, 2018 at 6:00 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
cyril said:
Then, in this case, by analogy, the positive karma acquired by rejoicing in another one's meritorious deeds wouldn't result in vipaka similar to that of the doer?

Astus wrote:
Agreeing with the actions of another is a mental, and possibly a verbal act, but not a bodily one. Because it strengthens a similar intention, the result is similar. However, the act is not the same, and when the result occurs the conditioning of the mind is not the same either.

Furthermore on "sharing karma":

"By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html.165)

"It can't be wrested away. It follows you along. When, having left this world, for wherever you must go, you take it with you. This fund is not held in common with others, & cannot be stolen by thieves."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.1-9.than.html#khp-8 )

"It may seem like a contradiction to dedicate merit when each person in samsara enjoys or suffers the results of only his or her own negative or positive actions, but no conflict really exists. Just as the results of the virtuous or evil deeds we create cannot be transferred to another person, neither can we take away someone else's negative karma or take our own virtue and transfer it to another person."
(Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche: King of Samadhi, p 120)

"we do not really exchange the karma we haven’t created, with karma created by others. Karma cannot be transferred or eliminated by giving and taking practice"
(Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche: http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/sevenpoints.htm )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 18th, 2018 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
This is talking about karma vipakka arising from our previous actions, it is not prove thatmy actions do not effect you. ... The fact that something needs to be endured (from others), is evidence of the effect (of others).

Astus wrote:
If beings suffer/enjoy the consequences of their own actions, how could they also suffer/enjoy the actions of others?

"This third category, ascription of karma, means that you experience the results of the karma you create. Results will ripen in the skandas related to the actor, and not to others. The Collection of the Abhidharma says:
What does the ascription of karma mean? One experiences the maturation of the karma one has created. It is uncommon to others and, so, is called ascription.
If that were not the case, the karma that was created could be wasted or there could be the danger of facing a result that one had not created. Therefore, in the sutra it says:
That karma that is created by Devadatta will not mature in the earth, water, and so forth But that karma will ripen in the skandas and ayatana of that particular individual To whom else would this karma result?"
(Jewel Ornament of LIberation, p 119-120)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 18th, 2018 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Academic learning is not directly proportional to realization
Content:
Malcolm said:
Serious much?



Astus wrote:
A monk asked, “What do you say about finding meaning in speech?”
Baofu said, “What speech is that?”
The monk looked down and didn’t answer.
Baofu said, “The sword of function is like lightning. Thinking about it is futile!”
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 302)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 17th, 2018 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
So you disagree with the Six Realms model then?

Astus wrote:
No, why would I? Although the 5 realms model has its advantages.

Grigoris said:
It is ridiculous to say that the actions of other's do not effect us.  If I punch you in the head, believe me, it will effect you.  For quite some time too.

Astus wrote:
"Even though now I have done no wrong, I am reaping the karmic consequences of past transgressions. It is something that neither the heavens nor other people can impose upon me."
( http://ctzen.org/sunnyvale/enUS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=5 )

"Through enduring the disparagement of others in the present life, the bad karma from the prior lives can be removed, and one can attain peerless perfect enlightenment."
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 16)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 17th, 2018 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
we know that our shared reality is formed as a consequence of our similar past actions.  We also know that the actions of others effect us.

Astus wrote:
No reality is shared, because experience is not shared. It is rather just conceptual categories that seem to create a shared world. Similarly, others' actions cannot affect us, as all experiences are the products of one's own conditioning.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 17th, 2018 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Academic learning is not directly proportional to realization
Content:
Malcolm said:
If that is the case, than you and I have been found out for the frauds that we are.

Astus wrote:
Quotes are meant to lend credibility to the content, thus avoiding the misperception of being considered the source. It is also standard academic (and Buddhist) procedure. E.g. Shinran's Kyogyoshinsho is like 90% quotes. Therefore I can keep drinking Coke, etc., without worrying about what I share on FB.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 17th, 2018 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Mantrik said:
the real debate is whether they share any vipaka or if that only arrives individually.

Astus wrote:
It's always an individual's decision, hence the consequences are individual as well. There is no such thing as a group mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 17th, 2018 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Academic learning is not directly proportional to realization
Content:
Ogyen said:
The point is to not confuse academic learning for realization, which happens a lot.

Malcolm said:
people read some eloquent words and think the person who wrote them is a great realizer

Astus wrote:
It is just forgetting not to rely on the person but rely on the teaching. A common mistake. On the other hand:

'It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning'
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.192.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 17th, 2018 at 6:49 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Grigoris said:
You think that a group of people acting together with a single goal cannot have similar or identical motivations?

Astus wrote:
People can have numerous things in common and imagine there to be an identity based on seemingly shared attributes, but that will not make them identical, nor create a new sentient entity. Even on a conventional level group identities are nominal. For example, people can eat together, but it doesn't mean they have one mind and one stomach.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 17th, 2018 at 5:10 PM
Title: Re: Collective karma
Content:
Astus wrote:
Karma is intentional action. Only beings have intention, not groups, hence there is no such thing as collective karma.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 16th, 2018 at 7:06 PM
Title: Re: Zazen and breathing
Content:
Anders said:
Tradition and living lineage is not the same thing. At least not in the sense that the pali canon uses the term.

Astus wrote:
How so? A tradition that is still alive (and not, for instance, recreated or revived) means that it's been passed down through the generations.

Anders said:
it more or less is.

Astus wrote:
What does 'it' stand for here? That the argument for the Mahayana scriptures is mainly just references to respected teachers?

Anders said:
What has been ignored, or rejected, by the great masters is generally subsequently ignored and rejected by later lineages.

Astus wrote:
If this refers only to Zen lineages, then it's one of the differences between lineages what textual materials they rely on. Being of a particular lineage then also defines whom they consider to be "great masters".

Anders said:
When it comes to stuff like energetic practices - sure, why not?

Astus wrote:
It is only a matter of fitting them into a Buddhist context.

Anders said:
I think there is a difference betweenn tom dick and harry doing so and generations of realised masters doing so though.

Astus wrote:
Since there can be no realisation outside Buddhism, nothing could be accepted that cannot be traced back to the Buddha himself. If that is not an important criteria, then there is no difference between there being or not being a history of past teachers.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 16th, 2018 at 5:27 PM
Title: Re: Zazen and breathing
Content:
Anders said:
"some dude somewhere sat down and discovered this"

Astus wrote:
Would you say the same of other beliefs, like the five elements and the forces of yin and yang? Then Zou Yan might be that "some dude". But there are several other "energy" views out there, so just as combination with Chinese concepts can be acceptable, we might as well integrate readily available Hermetic, Kabbalistic, or any New Age system.

Anders said:
The more essential proof is, I think, in the continuous upholding of such methods in the lineages as the seal of authentication.

Astus wrote:
Tradition is no proof, otherwise the Vedas should be accepted as well. As the Buddha said ( https://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/bodhi ):

“There are five things, Bhāradvāja, that may turn out in two different ways here and now. What five? Faith, approval, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, and reflective acceptance of a view. These five things may turn out in two different ways here and now. Now something may be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Again, something may be fully approved of…well transmitted…well cogitated…well reflected upon, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well reflected upon, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Under these conditions it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’”

Anders said:
What matters is that great masters over many centuries have used it as a scripture of great profundity and utility.

Astus wrote:
Some did, some did not, and some rejected them. So, instead of relying on one's choice of great masters, why not on doctrinal and practical qualities? After all, where the authenticity of the Vaipulya sutras are defended (e.g. Mahayanasutralamkara, ch 1), the argument is not that "Nagarjuna liked it", or "Sthiramati commented on it".


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 15th, 2018 at 5:42 PM
Title: Re: Zazen and breathing
Content:
ItsRaining said:
I remember reading a Tiantai text that did teach it, I don't remember if it was by Zhiyi or someone else though. It recommended Zhiyi's six sounds as well as the movement of Qi around the body.

Varis said:
Zhiyi taught the six sounds? They feature quite prominently in various texts about nourishing life practices in the Daoist cannon, and in particular in the writings of Dao Hongjing, who organized the teachings of the Shangqing sect.

rory said:
Livia Kohn in Daoist Body Cultivation University of Hawaii Press, 2006
states that Zhiyi in Xiuxi zhiguan zuochan fayao discusses the 6 healing breaths.

Astus wrote:
It is found in chapter 9 of http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/EBM_excerpts/EBM_X-16_X-09.pdf, on page 8 of that pdf. The same in the Chinese original is http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T46n1915_001#0471c26.

Salguero (in Translating Buddhist Medicine in Medieval China, p 103-105) writes that Zhiyi makes use of Chinese healing concepts there and differentiates it from the Indian method of twelve breaths by using different words (qi 氣 and xi 息) for "breath".


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 13th, 2018 at 4:03 PM
Title: Re: Zazen and breathing
Content:
rory said:
Bhikshu Dharmamitra translated:
Zhiyi: Six Dharma Gates to the Sublime: A Classic Meditation Manual on Traditional Indian Buddhist Meditation

Astus wrote:
In that work Zhiyi modifies and expands on one of the Indian methods of anapanasmrti. It does not include any sort of "energy" (qi/prana) practices.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 11th, 2018 at 3:18 PM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
All this is well and good, but none of it accounts for the source of wisdom. Hence, without wisdom, no wisdom.

Astus wrote:
It does account for it: "cultivate the genuine unmistaken philosophical view"

The traditional triplet ( https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato ): "wisdom produced by reflection (cintāmayā paññā), learning (sutamayā paññā), and meditation (bhāvanāmayā paññā)"

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=443398#p443398 summed it up nicely: "Prajñā, wisdom, is the result acquired from hearing the Dharma, reflecting upon it, and cultivating what was heard and reflected upon."

Asanga (Summary of the Great Vehicle, ch 8, BDK ed, p 92; elaborated on in chapter 3):

"For all bodhisattvas the cause is
The permeation of hearing [scriptural] discourse,
For nonimaginative wisdom is
True and correct reflection."

Summary of the relationship between the three causes (Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 188-189, tr Boin-Webb):

"How does one become [a person] dwelling in the teachings (dharmaviharin)? One does not become [a person] dwelling in the teachings only through the practice of listening (erudition) and reflection (srutacintaprayoga) without having recourse to meditation (mental cultivation) (bbavanam anagamya). Neither does one become [a person] dwelling in the teachings only through the practice of meditation (mental cultivation) (bhavanaprayoga) without having recourse to listening (erudition) and reflection (srutacintam anagamya). It is by having recourse to both, by living according to both, that one becomes [a person] dwelling in the teachings. What consists of listening (erudition) (srutamaya) should be understood by means of study, recitation and predication (udgrahayasvadhyayadesana). What consists of mental cultivation (bhavanamayd) should be understood by means of the practice of concentration (samadhiprayoga) and dissatisfaction (asamtusti). The practice of concentration should be understood by means of constant and careful practice (satatyasatkrtyaprayoga) and unperverted practice (aviparitaprayoga). Dissatisfaction should be understood by means of practice aimed at an [as yet] untasted (anasvadita) higher tranquillity (uttarasamatha)."


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 11th, 2018 at 2:40 PM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
If this is a general question, that's another story.

Astus wrote:
It is a general one, not about Nichiren in particular.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 11th, 2018 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Nichiren studied under many Dharma teachers. Thus, your example is invalid.

Astus wrote:
So by the requirement for a teacher you accept any Buddhist teacher, even if the encounter is minimal and later one does not even (fully) agree with that person?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 11th, 2018 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
From whence wisdom?

Astus wrote:
To quote from the same book (p 77):

"Without the practice of wisdom, the first five of the six perfections cannot actually become practices of perfection. In order to cultivate such wisdom, you must first cultivate the genuine unmistaken philosophical view that is known as the view of the Middle Way, or Madhyamika."

Also, on the relationship between wisdom and faith (p 90):

"Unless the "child of noble family," or a practitioner, is able to develop the wisdom of special insight, generation of faith based on knowledge is not possible. Of course, a person can have devoted faith, but when he or she develops faith as a result of comprehending ultimate reality, it is supported by reason and knowledge."


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 11th, 2018 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
My point, and I'm not sure where you stand based on this statement, is that the realization of emptiness is not possible without the Buddha pointing it out to you first.

Malcolm said:
Revise "Buddha" to "virtuous mentor," and we are in perfect agreement, though Astus will vehemently disagree.

Astus wrote:
The disagreement is not whether one needs to learn, but how learning can happen. For instance, Nichiren did not have a teacher who told him all he had then imparted on his disciples.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 11th, 2018 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Their conceptions never end
What do you call that? I call that an endless austerity.

Astus wrote:
"Their conceptions never end" refers to those who do not analyse correctly but merely suspend thinking. If analysis is correct, it ends all conceptualisation, because it brings about the realisation that all appearances are empty.

See also the commentary on the quoted section by HHDL (Stages of Meditation, p 134):

"In order to understand the true nature of things, it is vital that a. practitioner use intelligence and wisdom in the process of examination. As the author clearly states, the mere elimination Of mental activity does not constitute meditation on suchness. When mentally inactive, an individual may not be misconceiving the self, but he or she also lacks any sense of discerning selflessness; this sheds no light, and so the individual is not free from the fabrications of misconceptions."

Queequeg said:
Again, do you know this? Or are you inferring?

Astus wrote:
It is an inference.

Queequeg said:
If sheer analysis worked, then the Buddha's insights about reality should have emerged ubiquitously.

Astus wrote:
Did non-violence emerged ubiquitously? If not, does that make it an incorrect morality?

Queequeg said:
the Buddha's insights have been limited to the Buddha and those who have taken refuge in him and his teachings.

Astus wrote:
Why wouldn't it be so? Even among those who have faith in the Triple Jewel there are people without correct morality, correct meditation, and correct wisdom.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, April 10th, 2018 at 3:26 PM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Astus wrote:
There are some whose meditation does not involve the use of wisdom to investigate the essence of things; they only cultivate the sheer and complete elimination of mental activity. Their conceptions never end and they never know the absence of essence because they lack the light of wisdom.

Queequeg said:
They go on contemplating endlessly trying to find "nothing", ie. analysis without remainder. Pursuing an impossible end is, in my view, and endless austerity.

Astus wrote:
Kamalasila in the quote says that those who do not perform proper analysis do not end their conceptualisation, even if they temporarily suspend it. So it is the opposite of what you say.

Queequeg said:
Do you yourself know your assertion to be true? You don't need to answer that. Its rhetorical. You can if you want to, though.

Astus wrote:
The assertion that one can eliminate wrong views through learning, understanding, and contemplation? It works in science, works in philosophy, works in everyday life, and it works in Buddhism as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 4th, 2018 at 5:10 PM
Title: Re: Samatha and vipassana in Seon
Content:
Varis said:
From what I understand jigwan practice comes from Tiantai.

Astus wrote:
Not so. Samatha and vipasyana are standard categories in Buddhism everywhere. Furthermore, Huayan teachings, and not Tiantai, are the most prominent in Korea aside from Chan. As an example, Dushun, first teacher of Huayanzong, wrote (in Cleary's translation): "Cessation and Contemplation in the Five Teachings of the Hua-yen" ( http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T45n1867_001 ). But as for what Choui himself practised, that would require studying his writings first.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 31st, 2018 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: ‘Dharmas do not arise’
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I do encounter this declaration on DharmaWheel regularly, but I don’t understand it. What I always want to say is ‘but I still have to mow the lawn’. So - what does it mean?

Astus wrote:
Consider the basic definition of conditionality:

"When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.03.than.html )

Arising and ceasing are one of the common characteristics of phenomena. The goal in Buddhism is to leave the unstable conditioned realm for the stable unconditioned liberation. When extinction is realised, there is no more birth. That way no birth, or no arising, as a synonym of nirvana.

"The Knowledge of Destruction with the Knowledge of Non-Arising is Bodhi."
(Kosha ch 6, v 67a-b; vol 3, p 1023)

So when it comes to Mahayana, that dharmas are unborn is like that dharmas are emptiness, as these terms emphasise not only that there is no svabhava, but also that nirvana is not apart from samsara. The reason for calling appearances unborn can be summarised like this:

"Being does not arise, since it exists. Non-being does not arise, since it does not exist. Being and non-being [together] do not arise, due to [their] heterogeneity. Consequently they do not endure or vanish.
That which has been born cannot be born, nor can that which is unborn be born. What is being born now, being [partly] born, [partly] unborn, cannot be born either."
(Sunyatasaptati 4-5, tr Lindtner)

On the practical side, the realisation of appearances as unborn is one of the central attainments of a bodhisattva.

"They are wholly detached from mind, intellect , consciousness, thought, and ideation. Unattached, not grasping, equal to space, having entered into the nature of openness - this is called having attained acceptance of the nonorigination of things.
Then, imbued with this acceptance, as soon as enlightening beings attain the eighth stage, Immovability, they attain the profound abode of enlightening beings"
(Flower Ornament Scripture, ch 26, p 765)

"And how do bodhisattvas become adept at avoiding views of arising, duration, and cessation? Since whatever exists is like an illusion or a dream and its existence does not arise from itself, from another, or from a combination of both, but as a distinction of one’s own mind, they therefore see external existence as nonexistent, consciousness as not arising, and conditions as not combining but arising due to projections. When they see that all internal or external dharmas in the three realms cannot be grasped and are devoid of self-existence, their views of arising cease. And once they know that the self-existence of everything is illusory, they attain the forbearance of non-arising. And once they attain the forbearance of non-arising, they avoid views of arising, duration, and cessation. This is how bodhisattvas become adept at distinguishing and avoiding views of arising, duration and cessation."
(Lankavatara Sutra, ch 30, tr Red Pine)

"Mañjuśrī, all dharmas are equal [in their emptiness]. Because they are equal, they do not abide. Because they do not abide, they do not move. Because they do not move, they rely on nothing. Because they rely on nothing, they have no place. Because they have no place, they have no birth. Because they have no birth, they have no death. If one can see dharmas in this way, one’s mind is not deluded. Because one’s mind is not deluded, one accords with true reality. Because one accords with true reality, one does nothing. Because one does nothing, one does not come. Because one does not come, one does not go. Because one does not go, one is in unity with true suchness. Because one is in unity with true suchness, one follows dharma nature. Because one follows dharma nature, one’s mind does not move. Because one’s mind does not move, one has no expectations. Why not? Because one has attained bodhi. If one has attained bodhi, one does not abide in any dharmas. Because one does not abide in dharmas, one realizes that they have neither birth nor death, neither names nor appearances. Mañjuśrī, if sentient beings are attached to dharmas, their afflictions arise. If their afflictions arise, they cannot attain bodhi."
( http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra46.html )

"If you can comprehend that the myriad phenomena are unborn, that [deluded] mind is like an illusory transformation, so that you are everywhere pure, this is enlightenment."
(Recorded Sayings of Linji, in Three Chan Classics, BDK ed, p 21)

At that time, the Buddha proclaimed to Simwang Bodhisattva: “Oh son of good family! The acquiescence to the nonproduction of dharmas [means to realize that] dharmas are originally unproduced. Since all practices produce nothing, there is no way to practice this nonproduction. So achieving the acquiescence to nonproduction is in fact a deception.”
(Vajrasamadhi Sutra, p 118, tr Buswell)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 31st, 2018 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
With wisdom our analysis does not become an endless austerity.

Astus wrote:
What do you mean by endless austerity?

Queequeg said:
From whence wisdom?
We receive it from the Buddha.
How do we receive it?
By listening with faith.
Faith is essential.

Astus wrote:
I did not say there is no need for faith on the path. What I say is that faith is not the bridge between contemplation and insight.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 30th, 2018 at 4:21 PM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
I'm referring to faith as the necessary disposition to even begin the path. If there is no faith, then one will not even hear the teaching. There has to be a disposition where one accepts what one hears is true, at least tentatively, without knowing whether it actually is true. All of us, without exception, started that way. We did not know Dharma before we heard it, but we listened with a modicum, at least, of faith, and thereby internalized it enough to take is seriously.

Astus wrote:
That initial faith is not related to the move from analysis to insight, as it is a condition for hearing, not for contemplation and application.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 28th, 2018 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Accepting the teaching because one trusts it is OK, but it's not enough for eliminating ignorance.

Queequeg said:
Agreed, except not just ok, essential.

Astus wrote:
There are faith followers and there are dharma followers.

"What is a person who follows trust (sraddhanusarin)? It is he who, having acquired the equipment and having weak faculties, applies himself to the comprehension of the Truth while recalling the instruction given by others.
What is a person who follows the teaching (dharmanusarin)? It is he who, having acquired the equipment and having sharp faculties, applies himself to the comprehension of the Truth, by himself recalling the teaching dominated by the Truth."
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 202-203, tr Boin-Webb)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 28th, 2018 at 7:14 PM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
There is something more in the analytical approach that is not mentioned. It's the Buddha's teaching of the selflessness of dharmas.

Astus wrote:
The insubstantiality of appearances is covered within analysis.

Queequeg said:
That bridges the chasm between analytical consideration and real wisdom. When the Buddha's teaching is heard, then our analysis is not primary exploration but rather evaluation and confirmation of the Buddha's teaching. When we have analyzed enough that the Buddha's word is true, we leap the chasm and enter the Buddha wisdom through faith.

Astus wrote:
If the end result is not direct perception, then it is not wisdom one achieves. Accepting the teaching because one trusts it is OK, but it's not enough for eliminating ignorance.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 28th, 2018 at 3:12 PM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
My point is, the onion or plantain tree as a metaphor leaves something to be desired.

Astus wrote:
Is https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=441900#p441900 that "it assumes characteristics to peel back, suggestive of a process replete with all manner of concepts - one utilizes concepts to remove concepts... in practice it would seem this would just lead to infinite regression."? If so, let me answer to the below point.

Queequeg said:
This is using a process of analysis which I suggested above leads to an infinite regression. If done meticulously. Why? Because there is always a remainder.

Astus wrote:
The quoted example of sticks burned by their fire is quite universal in Mahayana. Let me give here Tsongkhapa's (The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path, vol 3, p 344-345) more extensive response to the objection.

Objection: Since analytical discrimination of the meaning of selflessness is conceptual, it is contradictory that it should produce the nonconceptual sublime wisdom. This is because there must be harmony between an effect and its cause.
Reply: The Bhagavan himself spoke about this using an example. The Kasyapa Chapter Sutra (Kasyapa-parivarta-sutra) says:
Kasyapa, it is thus. For example, two trees are dragged against each other by the wind and from that a fire starts, burning the two trees. In the same way, Kasyapa, if you have correct analytical discrimination, the power of a noble being's wisdom will emerge. With its emergence, correct analytical discrimination will itself be burned up.
This means that the wisdom of a noble being emerges from analytical discrimination. Kamalasila's second Stages of Meditation says:
Thus, yogis analyze with wisdom and when they definitely do not apprehend the essence of any thing ultimately, they enter into the nonconceptual concentration. They know that all phenomena lack essence. There are some whose meditation does not involve the use of wisdom to investigate the essence of things; they only cultivate the sheer and complete elimination of mental activity. Their conceptions never end and they never know the absence of essence because they lack the light of wisdom. Thus, when the fire which is a precise understanding of reality arises from correct analytical discrimination, then - as in the case of the fire from the friction of two sticks rubbed together - the wood of conceptual thought is burned up. This is what the Bhagavan said.
Otherwise, since it would be impossible for an uncontaminated path to arise from a contaminated path, an ordinary being could not attain the state of a noble being because of the dissimilarity between the cause and the effect. In the same way, it is evident that there are limitless cases of dissimilar causes and effects, such as the production of a green seedling from a gray seed, the production of smoke from fire, and the production of a male child from a woman. A noble being's nonconceptual sublime wisdom is perceptual knowledge of the meaning of selflessness - the emptiness of the object of the conception of the two selves. In order to develop that sort of wisdom at a higher stage, your meditation must now precisely analyze the object of the conception of self and realize that it does not exist. Therefore, although this is conceptual, it is a cause which is very conducive to the nonconceptual sublime wisdom. As previously cited, the King of Concentrations Sutra says:
If you analytically discriminate the lack of self in phenomena
And if you cultivate that precise analysis in meditation,
This will cause you to reach the goal, the attainment of nirvana.
There is no peace through any other cause.
Therefore, Kamalasila's third Stages of Meditation says,
Even though it has a conceptual nature, its nature is one of proper mental activity. Therefore, because it engenders the nonconceptual sublime wisdom, those who seek the sublime wisdom should rely upon it.

Queequeg said:
In practice, one takes the analysis to the limits of one's experience, but if you're completely honest, there is always a remainder, and so one can't be sure all analysis has been exhausted; we can only extend to the limits of our analysis.

Astus wrote:
There are very clear boundaries given in Buddhism, commonly in the format of the five aggregates and six sensory areas (see the Loka Suttas at SN https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.082.than.html and https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.044.than.html ).

"Subhuti: How does perfect wisdom instruct the Tathagatas in this world, and what is it that the Tathagatas call ‘world’?
The Lord: The five skandhas have by the Tathagata have declared as ‘world’ [loka]. Which five? Form, feeling, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness."
(PP8K, 12.2, tr Conze)

A larger list of "all things" is found in the abhidharma works.

Queequeg said:
The whole point of the metaphor suggests that the mistake that the nexus is a self is unsupported.

Astus wrote:
One relevant issue here is whether that nexus is real or not. If there is a network of things, one could just call that one's true nature, one's self, like one can call the conglomeration of parts one's body.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 28th, 2018 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Queequeg said:
it suggests that it is possible to peel the layers back and get to some "zero".

Astus wrote:
In a way it is possible, and that is the standard analysis performed in vipasyana.

"when they are broken into subtle particles and the nature of the parts of these subtle particles is individually examined, no definite identity can be found."
(Bhavanakrama, in Stages of Meditation, p 129)

Queequeg said:
one utilizes concepts to remove concepts... in practice it would seem this would just lead to infinite regression

Astus wrote:
Not at all. One first has to eliminate wrong views with the right view, then it is possible to become free from views.

"Remedying illusion by means of an illusion is like rubbing sticks together to make fire: with the two sticks serving as cause to one another, flames burst forth, the sticks are consumed, their ashes fly away, and the smoke disappears, [leaving nothing behind]."
(Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, ch 2, in Apocryphal Scriptures, BDK ed, p 62)

Queequeg said:
If I'm conceptualizing, I prefer the idea of a nexus of causes and conditions to illustrate the nature of self. One can leave the causes and conditions in place, without peeling them back, and still get some notion of the "self" to be some meta effect of these intersecting causes and conditions.

Astus wrote:
Either by contemplating the elements or dependent origination, in both cases one looks into how experiences lack an enduring essence.

"If a bodhisattva attains a fixed mind, he should observe that the twelve links are empty and without a proprietor. Ignorance does not perceive that it creates conduct. Conduct does not perceive that it has arisen from ignorance. Conduct simply arises conditioned by ignorance. It is just like a sprout arising from the seed of a plant. The seed does not perceive that it produces the sprout. Nor does the sprout perceive that it has arisen from the seed. Likewise up to old age and death. [The bodhisattva] observes and realizes that each of these twelve links has neither proprietor nor self. It is just like plants of the external [world] that have no proprietor. Merely out of wrong views one misconceives that there is self."
(Sutra on the Concentration of Sitting Meditation, BDK ed, p 74)

Queequeg said:
Incidentally, I think the concept of a nexus of causes and conditions very aptly illustrates how discrete mindstreams can be posited while also illustrating how such mindstreams can relate to each other.

Astus wrote:
Minds cannot intersect, nor relate to each other directly.

"The conscious construction of the difference between oneself and others is engendered from the seminal permeation of belief in self."
(Summary of the Great Vehicle, BDK ed, p 37)

And,

"Knowledge of those,
[Who claim] to know other minds,
Is unreal,
Just as one’s knowledge of one’s own mind
[Is unreal]."
(Vimsatika, v 21, in A Buddhist Doctrine of Experience, p 274)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 28th, 2018 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Rick said:
To call Brahman an "invisible essence" is to impute attributes to attributelessness.

Astus wrote:
As long as it is assumed to exist, (not to mention being conscious and blissful), there is an assumption of essence. But if it is not considered existent, then there is nothing to talk about.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 27th, 2018 at 5:33 PM
Title: Re: Mind-streams: Separate?
Content:
Matt J said:
These traditions rely on at least three claims to support its contention: 1) that consciousness, stripped of all bliss, mental, energetic, and physical bodies, has no distinguishable characteristics;

Astus wrote:
If one removes all characteristics, clearly there are no characteristics left. The difference between substantialists (e.g. Vedanta) and insubstantialists (Buddhists), is that the latter does not assume an invisible essence once the onion layers (pancakosa/panca(upadana)skandha) are gone.

Matt J said:
The issue with the Buddhist view is that the mind is not physical, so what keeps minds apart? If the mind is bound or bordered in some way, this boundary or border should be discoverable within the mind.

Astus wrote:
What keeps thoughts apart? Does being apart make any sense without spatial dimensions? In any case, minds have different causes and conditions.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 27th, 2018 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Please see this post from Meido Moore Roshi, I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted it:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=441660#p399918

Astus wrote:
He did not write that Hakuin had confirmed such a view where nenbutsu could be the cause of kensho. In fact, he wrote: "nothing to do with Nembutsu itself really".


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 26th, 2018 at 4:34 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
distinction Zen makes between kensho and full Buddhahood

Astus wrote:
That's not a generally accepted distinction.

Dharma Flower said:
According to Zen master Hakuin, a Nembutsu practitioner can experience kensho or small enlightenment through reciting the Nembutsu, with the understanding that the Buddha-nature within is ultimately the same as Amida Buddha's: https://www.lionsroar.com/the-hidden-lamp/

Astus wrote:
That is a story - not a statement by Hakuin on nenbutsu - but even there, the realisation does not come about because of nenbutsu.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 16th, 2018 at 7:26 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
ItsRaining said:
Though by the end it is no longer just a verbal recitation.

Astus wrote:
That's the thing, it changes into a different sort of practice than repeating the name, hence it is no longer recitation. Such a practice of buddha-remembrance was already taught by Daoxin (see https://www.dailyzen.com/journal/calming-the-mind ), and in the Pure Land tradition it is called the http://eubuddhist.blogspot.hu/2015/10/real-mark-buddha-remembrance.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 16th, 2018 at 6:21 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
ItsRaining said:
A lot of teachers do use recitation as a Chan practice though, I think Chinul and Hanshan Deqing both wrote a short text on recitation from a Chan perspective.

Astus wrote:
Of course, recitation can be used for meditation. But for what purpose is the important question. There are two goals one can reach with it: calming the mind, and attaining birth in Sukhavati. Insight, or in Zen terms: seeing the nature of mind, is not within the practice's scope. One common difference between the interpretations of Pure Land and Zen teachers is that those who advocate recitation (and other forms of recollection) of Amitabha within Zen emphasise the need to have not only pure morality but also a calm mind in order to attain birth, while Pure Land teachers emphasise vow and faith as the essential conditions of birth, and recitation as a support for them. What nobody seems to claim is that with recitation alone one could actually attain enlightenment in this life.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 16th, 2018 at 4:04 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
My particular favorite are these words from the Tientai and Ch'an master Ou-i

Astus wrote:
That quote does not say that simply reciting the name is equal to the realisation of buddha-nature. In fact, https://www.ymba.org/books/mind-seal-buddhas/explanation-text/main-portion/practice about the practice, just before explaining its two levels:

"If you hear [the Buddha-name] and believe in it, if you believe in it and make vows, then you are fit to recite the Buddha-name. If you do not have faith and do not make vows, it is as if you never heard [the Buddha-name] at all. Merely hearing the name of Amitabha [without faith and vows] may become a long-term causal basis [for your enlightenment], but it cannot be called the "wisdom that comes from hearing"."

Dharma Flower said:
In terms of my personal practice, I am interested in learning about Pure Land teachings from a Ch'an/Zen perspective.

Astus wrote:
Then you might also consider those who did not view name recitation as equal to Zen practice. Such teachers were Bodhidharma, Huineng, Linji, Dogen, and Hakuin, just to mention the most well known ones.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 14th, 2018 at 4:52 PM
Title: Re: A Zen story that stayed with me for decades
Content:
Drenpa said:
some definitive source re how these stories are used traditionally with a teacher

Astus wrote:
The classic way where stories are used for training is phrase contemplation ( http://sweepingzen.com/kanhua-chan/ ). For the short version, read Wumen's comment on Zhaozhou's Wu. For a longer explanation see http://hsuyun.budismo.net/en/dharma/chan_sessions2.html. For an extensive explanation read http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 14th, 2018 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm said:
Yes, this means mixing levels of teachings.

Astus wrote:
Integrating into one's practice the various levels of discipline for instance is a viable and recommended approach, while at the same time it's also possible to stick to only one type. On the other hand, at least for sravaka and bodhisattva precepts, there are arguments (and traditions) both for and against such mixing.

Malcolm said:
There is no such thing as the "best parts of many traditions" because all Buddhadharma is perfect in the beginning, middle, and end.

Astus wrote:
But there are always individual preferences. And although it may not seem fruitful to mix one's own salad, eventually, through increasing familiarity and deepening of understanding, one arrives at a view that matches one of the systems. And even if not, one's discipline, concentration, faith, and mindfulness strengthens.

Malcolm said:
once you have joined Vajrayāna teachings, you won't really be a Tendai, etc., practitioner anymore.

Astus wrote:
Why would that be?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, March 14th, 2018 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm said:
Tsongkhapa was really the last Tibetan to initiate the founding of a new lineage of teachings.

Astus wrote:
How does that compare to the revealed teachings in Nyingma, like the Longchen Nyingthig and the Lamrim Yeshe Nyingpo?

Malcolm said:
The original question involved mixing different levels of teachings.

Astus wrote:
It was along the lines of "we don't need to limit ourselves to one tradition, and we can take the best parts of many traditions as it helps us in our practice and daily life".

Malcolm said:
Lineage is the most important thing in Vajrayāna because the practice in general involves initiation into various mandalas, and the procedure must be like impressing a seal in wax.

Astus wrote:
Although this I haven't really heard about actually happening - except perhaps by Yogi Chen - if the method and transmission is left intact, any Vajrayana practice could be incorporated into another system, like in Tendai, could it not? Tantric rituals are still present in Chinese Buddhism, just as they were there in Zen in Japan before the 18th century reformations.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 13th, 2018 at 6:39 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Miroku said:
do you mix suddenly rinzai things into your teachings although you might be only slightly familiar with them?

Astus wrote:
Zen is not a matter of method but a matter of realisation. Once the nature of mind is realised, the buddha-mind can manifest the skilful means. So the main benefit a teacher can provide is appropriate, personal instructions, therefore they can be practically anything.

"If they use their hands, I hit them on the hands. If they use their mouths, I hit them in the mouth. If they use their eyes, I hit them in the eye. ... There is no fixed doctrine to give to people, only methods to cure diseases and release bonds."
(Recorded Sayings of Linji, in Three Chan Classics, BDK ed, p 33)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 13th, 2018 at 6:04 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Simon E. said:
the teachings of those two schools are posited on a relationship with a bone fide teacher of the lineage. They are not stand alone buffets.

Astus wrote:
Are all teachers the same, or are there differences in terms of what they specialise in? If there are specialists, it means one has to study with more than one in order to learn things beyond the basics (or sometimes even just the basics).

The Brahma Net Sutra (BDK ed, p 50) has this as one of the minor precepts:

"Do Not Miss a Chance to Attend Dharma Lectures 
My disciples, the Vinaya scripture is lectured on everywhere. When a large house is the venue for a Dharma lecture, newly awakened bodhisattvas should bring their sutra and vinaya scrolls and go to the place of that Dharma teacher to listen and ask questions. Whether the venue is under the trees in the forest, or in a room owned by the sangha, or any other place, you should listen to the best of your ability. If you fail to attend such a lecture, this constitutes a minor transgression of the precepts."


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 13th, 2018 at 4:23 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm said:
This is how we roll in Vajrayāna. If you mix systems, it is considered very bad.

Astus wrote:
What was the point in history when systems became frozen and no new lineages emerged?

Malcolm said:
That is very bad, not allowed, and the Dharmapālas of both systems will become unhappy and punish the offender.

Astus wrote:
That being so, it seems to be more of a Vajrayana issue, as nobody else is concerned with keeping the teachings and methods separate, even if there were periods when "purity of the tradition" was deemed important.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 13th, 2018 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm said:
one cannot randomly use one completion method given in one system with that of another system

Astus wrote:
But one can use them systematically, like what is itself a combination of different methods from all three systems: the six dharmas of Naropa. And if one has learnt different techniques from different teachers, it is quite normal to practise them, from which comes a person who can then teach such previously diverse techniques as a single set. Isn't that rather the usual situation, while knowing only one technique and having a single teacher is fairly rare?

Malcolm said:
What people do in their own caves is their own business, but I have never heard Vajrayāna master teach Joshu's mu. It isn't needed.

Astus wrote:
The need arises from what works.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 13th, 2018 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Simon E. said:
Sounds like a smorgasbord

Astus wrote:
How is it any different from complex groupings of teachings like what you see in Huayan, Tiantai, Nyingma, and Kagyu?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, March 13th, 2018 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Grigoris said:
Nothing would "not allow" you to do this.  But why would you?

Astus wrote:
There might be some who find it beneficial to combine practices like that.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 12th, 2018 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm said:
Vajryāna does in fact mean a specific method: creation stage and completion stage, which themselves depends on empowerment.

Astus wrote:
Is there anything in Vajrayana that could not be categorised under those two stages? If no, are all creation and completion stage practices equal? If no, why call it a specific method, when they are actually large categories of numerous methods?
Furthermore, what would not allow someone to practise first a sadhana of Tara, then contemplate on Joshu's Mu, and finish off with observing the disgusting nature of the body?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 12th, 2018 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm said:
If you start practicing Vajrayana, you will no longer be someone who practices Rinzai, and vice versa.

Astus wrote:
Neither Vajrayana nor Rinzai Zen means a specific method but they include various teachings and techniques, don't they?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 12th, 2018 at 7:17 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm said:
as long as they take care not to mix up the different levels of teachings.

Astus wrote:
So being "Drukpa Kagyu" or "Rinzai Zen" is not an issue and has no relevance. That's why I said that tradition and lineage were not the key factors.

Malcolm said:
With respect to the last point, however, that is really oriented towards mastering the five sciences.

Astus wrote:
What I referred to was the https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/glossary/individual.html?key=verse_of_four_universal_vows, and that says "Dharma gates", meaning Buddhist teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 12th, 2018 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm said:
we define traditions based on the disciplines we follow.

Astus wrote:
In that case those who take the five precepts, the bodhisattva vows, and the samayas, can follow sravaka, bodhisattva, and vajrayana teachings at the same time. After all, one of the four main Mahayana vows is mastering all teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, March 12th, 2018 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Malcolm said:
This is not true. They mean everything. For example, you will never find creation and completion stage in common Mahāyāna, nor the view of four-fold emptiness in Śrāvakayāna.

Astus wrote:
Is common Mahayana a tradition? What lineage claims to be its upholder?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 11th, 2018 at 6:06 PM
Title: Re: Tradition shmadition, lineage shmineage
Content:
Astus wrote:
Thinking in terms of tradition and lineage is not a particularly useful approach, because it focuses only on people and communities instead of the precepts and the teachings. Neither tradition nor lineage mean much in terms of view and practice. At the same time, traditions themselves usually try to include everything that there is in Buddhism, and build a more or less systematic interpretation of all the teachings, thus showing the same approach of inclusiveness as those who today want to embrace the divergent teachings and methods.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 11th, 2018 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Nāgārjuna's Fourfold Negation & Śrāvakayāna
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
How does venerable Nāgārjuna's fourfold (or eightfold) negation build, via logic, inference, sūtra-citation, etc, upon the various negations presented in śrāvakayāna (i.e. Sarvāstivāda, Mahāsāṃghika, Theravāda/Pāli, etc) literature?

Astus wrote:
It is merely a format to negate all possibilities, an extension on denying the extremes of existence and annihilation. It is not an argument in itself.

Coëmgenu said:
And, a last question: from where does this treatment of the Chariot simile by the venerable Candrakīrti originate? Which text does he discuss it in?

Astus wrote:
Madhyamakavatara 6.151-161.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 4th, 2018 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: What are the General Mahayana Teachings?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Whatever the case may be, the issue is not addressed at length in the Nikayas/Agamas.

Astus wrote:
So it is.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, March 4th, 2018 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: What are the General Mahayana Teachings?
Content:
Malcolm said:
it is not extensively mentioned in these texts.

Astus wrote:
And the reason for that is that dharmas are not taught to have/be svabhava in them either, furthermore, even the concept of dharma as a fundamental element is missing. And according to Bhikkhu Bodhi (Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p 3): "Even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka itself the dhamma theory is not yet expressed as an explicit philosophical tenet; this comes only later, in the Commentaries."


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 3rd, 2018 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: What are the General Mahayana Teachings?
Content:
Malcolm said:
This the selflessness of the person, not of phenomena.

Astus wrote:
The selflessness of person is that there is no person, only the aggregates, while the selflessness of phenomena is that the aggregates themselves are without essence. The sutra talks about how phenomena themselves are dependent and without any will of their own, so it matches what the Lankavatara Sutra (2.24, tr Red Pine) says: "And what does it mean to know that dharmas have no self? It means to be aware that the self-existence of the skandhas, dhatus, and ayatanas is imaginary, that the skandhas, dhatus, and ayatanas are devoid of a self or anything that belongs to a self, that the skandhas, dhatus, and ayatanas are assemblages tied to desire and karma and that they arise from the interplay of conditions but are themselves passive, and that all dharmas are like this."


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 3rd, 2018 at 7:09 AM
Title: Re: What are the General Mahayana Teachings?
Content:
Malcolm said:
One can infer the selflessness of phenomena from teachings in the Agamas, but it is not directly taught there.

Astus wrote:
Nor is it taught that they are self-existent, hence nothing to oppose the emptiness of appearances to. And as far as the aggregates and sense-areas go, they are taught to be without self many times.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 3rd, 2018 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: What are the General Mahayana Teachings?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The Great Discourse on the Emptiness of Dharmas and it analogue do not really discuss the emptiness of phenomena, it refers to the emptiness of persons.

Astus wrote:
It might not be the best example, but that's how it is interpreted in the MPPS. And there is a reason to say that it confirms the emptiness of appearances, because it talks of how there is no self in dependent origination, in other words, appearances are empty.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, March 3rd, 2018 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: What are the General Mahayana Teachings?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
But also: the āgamāḥ do not necessarily equal "śrāvaka Buddhadharma". Śrāvaka Buddhadharma is also Abhidharma, treatises, etc.

Astus wrote:
If it is said that sravakas do not see the emptiness of dharmas, but believe that dharmas are self-existent, and that belief is taught not in the agamas but in the abhidharma, then which abhidharma is taught by the Buddha before the Mahayana sutras?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, March 2nd, 2018 at 7:19 PM
Title: Re: What are the General Mahayana Teachings?
Content:
Grigoris said:
It seems like a fine distinction based on the fact that there was no conception of an atman in phenomena so the Buddha's teaching on anatman was not enough to cover the emptiness of phenomena too.

Malcolm said:
Yes, this is the observation made about Nikaya/Agama sūtras.

Astus wrote:
The view that sravakas do not know the emptiness of phenomena is more a Yogacara interpretation than a universal one. After a number of quotes - e.g. https://suttacentral.net/en/sa297 ( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.035.than.html ) - from the Agamas the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mah%C4%81praj%C3%B1%C4%81p%C4%81ramit%C4%81upade%C5%9Ba states:

"In place after place within the sutras of the Śrāvakas are discussions such as these which explain the emptiness of all dharmas."
( http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/N6P_excerpts/N6P_X-Bk4_X-15.pdf, http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T25n1509_018#0193c01 )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2018 at 7:04 PM
Title: Re: The Interpenetration of Principle & Phenomena
Content:
Sentient Light said:
Solid point, but afaik, only Shinran explicitly teaches only recitation. Honen was well-practiced in many additional methods.

Astus wrote:
Honen was the one who started the teaching of senju nenbutsu in Japan, where simply the oral recitation of the name is sufficient for attaining birth. The four auxiliary practices are subordinate to nenbutsu and their application is conditional.

Sentient Light said:
Many of the masters I listed also practiced Chan/Thien and some Tantra.

Astus wrote:
In other words, they practised buddha remembrance within the larger framework of the six paramitas.

Sentient Light said:
the quiescence of the mind results in direct perception of one's Buddha-nature and penetrating insight into the nature of phenomena.

Astus wrote:
Even non-Buddhists can attain the various dhyanas, so a quiet mind is insufficient for liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 28th, 2018 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: The Interpenetration of Principle & Phenomena
Content:
Sentient Light said:
the point you're trying to make here

Astus wrote:
It is simply that recitation in itself is insufficient as a method for liberation in this life. The biography of Hai Xian shows that he practised many virtues and lived a renunciate life, and that is already a lot more than simply intoning the six syllables a few times in one's living room every day.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 27th, 2018 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Numerous books are freely available on Pure Land teachings from a Ch'an/Zen perspective, particularly through the YMBA.

Astus wrote:
Could you quote a few sentences from those works that clearly state one can attain liberation in this life through the exclusive practice of recitation?

For instance, in https://ymba.org/books/mind-seal-buddhas/essence-sutra to the Shorter Sutra it's explicitly stated that recitation is the way to attain birth:

"Reciting the Buddha-name with faith and vows is a true causal basis for the Supreme Vehicle. The four kinds of Pure Land [the Land Where Saints and Ordinary Beings Dwell Together, the Land of Expedient Liberation, the Land of Real Reward, and the Land of Eternally Quiescent Light] are the wondrous fruits of the One Vehicle. If you have the causal basis, then the result is sure to follow.
...
The powerful function of this sutra is to enable us to he reborn in the Pure Land and never fall back. Rebirth in the Pure Land can be categorized in terms of the Four Pure Lands, and also into nine grades in each land. Here I will give a brief explanation of the characteristics of the Four Lands.
If you recite the Buddha-name without cutting off your delusions of views and thoughts, depending on how scattered or how concentrated you are, you are reborn in the level of the Land Where Saints and Ordinary Beings Live Together.
If you recite the Buddha-name to the point of singlemindedness (phenomenal level), your delusions of views and thoughts are cut off and you are born in the land that is the fruit of practicing expedient means: the Land of Expedient Liberation [where Arhats live].
If you recite the Buddha-name to the point of singlemindedness (noumenon or inner truth level), and you smash from one to forty-one levels of delusion and ignorance, then you are born in the Pure Land of Real Reward [where Bodhisattvas live].
If you recite the Buddha-name to the point that ignorance and delusion are totally cut off, this is the highest reward and you will be reborn in the Land of Eternally Quiescent Light [where the Buddhas dwell]."


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 27th, 2018 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: "One Mind" in Hua Yen thought
Content:
Sherab said:
even ultimate truth is merely a conventional truth.

Astus wrote:
Ultimate has a meaning only relative to conventional, hence it is a conventional concept like all other concepts, otherwise one would have to claim that there is an ultimate concept.

Sherab said:
This would mean that the ultimate is a convention just like the relative.

Astus wrote:
So it is.

Sherab said:
As the ultimate truth is also a conventional truth, and since you said that the ultimate truth is the perception of emptiness of dependently originated phenomena, that very perception is not a perception of emptiness etc. but is merely labeled as a perception and is every bit as illusory as any perceived relative phenomena.

Astus wrote:
Even emptiness is empty.

Sherab said:
So even perception of emptiness cannot be trusted as a true perception.  In fact, nothing can be trusted as true whether relatively or ultimately once the statement that the ultimate truth is merely a conventional truth is accepted.

Astus wrote:
Nothing should be trusted at all. When the mind abides nowhere, that is when it is free from clinging.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 27th, 2018 at 4:09 PM
Title: Re: The Interpenetration of Principle & Phenomena
Content:
Astus wrote:
If it were as you stated, why cannot reciting "bodhi, bodhi" make one awakened? Also, how come that those millions of Pure Land practitioners were/are not all enlightened beings despite regularly reciting the name? Even such well known Amitabha devotees like Honen remained deluded beings all their lives, furthermore, it is a basic point of the Pure Land teachings that one should recognise being ignorant and sinful.

Dharma Flower said:
In reciting the name of Amida Buddha, we are calling the name of our true nature, awakening the Buddha within. This is due to the interpenetration of principle and phenomena.

Astus wrote:
True nature, the principle, is just the absence of self-nature, while the phenomenal aspect, the conventional nature, is the name, the concept. So, while people have names, there is no person behind the name, there is nobody to call. Therefore, calling the name of true nature is no different from shouting in an empty house. There is none to answer.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 27th, 2018 at 3:52 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
has been endorsed by trustworthy teachers and masters throughout Buddhist history.

Astus wrote:
By those who aimed for birth in Sukhavati, not as a method for liberation in this life.

Dharma Flower said:
Amitabha is our own Buddha-nature, and that the Pure Land is the innately pure mind.

Astus wrote:
That doesn't validate recitation as the appropriate practice to realise it.

Dharma Flower said:
Whatever motivates you to practice a good Buddhist practice is the right motivation.

Astus wrote:
Not really. Motivation itself is a defining factor of what one's practice is good for.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 26th, 2018 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
The point is not to purify the mind, but instead to uncover the innately pure mind, through gradual cultivation.

Astus wrote:
What's the difference between purifying and uncovering? Both stands for removing all elements of obscuration. But how can recitation remove them?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 26th, 2018 at 3:16 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
In Zen practice, it's often said there's nothing to attain. This is because the practice itself is an outward expression of the Buddha-nature we already are, which has been obscured by the deluded ego.

Astus wrote:
As long as the nature is obscured, it cannot be expressed.

Dharma Flower said:
From a Zen perspective, Pure Land practice is an expression of our original nature, which is the same as Amida Buddha's. In reciting the name of Amida and bowing to his image, we humble the ego-self to let the Amida-self shine through.

Astus wrote:
With the obscuration present, all actions are the products of ignorance.

"If you don’t see your nature, invoking Buddhas, reciting sutras, making offerings, and keeping precepts are all useless."
(Bodhidharma: Bloodstream Sermon, tr Red Pine)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 23rd, 2018 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Recommendations for Yogacara works?
Content:
Matt J said:
Many Zen practitioners seem to take it as a given--- ... After all, Vasubandhu is listed as a Zen Patriarch

Astus wrote:
In that case it shouldn't be difficult to compare some works of Vasubandhu with the works of some Zen teachers and show the correspondences.

Matt J said:
You can also read Hakuin elucidate on the Eight Consciousnesses and the Four Cognitions in Cleary's Kensho: The Heart of Zen. The Four Cognitions is interesting because he talks about the three kayas and the transformation of consciousness, both very Yogacara.

Astus wrote:
Talking of the eight consciousnesses, the three bodies, and the four wisdoms is not unique to Yogacara. Both Hakuin and Jinul teach that the bodies and wisdoms exist inherently, but that is contrary to what you find in the Mahayanasamgraha or the Cheng Weish Lun. Furthermore, Hakuin very much simplifies the function of the bodies and wisdoms, as it is common within Zen.

Matt J said:
One can look at Chinul's Straightforward Explanation of the True Mind in the same text.

Astus wrote:
That text differentiates right at the beginning the scriptural and the patriarchal teachings. Furthermore, it talks of inherent buddha-nature, a concept that is denied not only by the doctrine of the five gotras, but also how the mind is understood in Yogacara.

Matt J said:
Yogacara flavored ideas

Astus wrote:
It seems that is a different flavour.

Matt J said:
Here's a bit from Ma Zu, in Zen's Chinese Heritage by Andy Ferguson: Believe that your own mind is Buddha. This very mind is buddha mind.

Astus wrote:
Not according to Yogacara, where this mind is very much the product of defilements.

Matt J said:
he brought with him the text of the Lankavatara Sutra

Astus wrote:
It already existed in Chinese.

Matt J said:
using it as the seal of the mind-ground of sentient beings.

Astus wrote:
The ground is the alayavijnana in Yogacara, not some sort of pure consciousness.

Matt J said:
A bit of Hui Hai, from Zen: Teaching of Instananeous Awakening by John Blofeld:
A:  Mind is the root.

Astus wrote:
Again, nothing specific to Yogacara. Look at the first two stanzas of the https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html:

"Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow."

Matt J said:
While on Blofeld, here is some Huang Po, from his Zen Teaching of Huang Po: This Mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible

Astus wrote:
All eight consciousnesses are momentary, definitely not indestructible.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 22nd, 2018 at 6:18 PM
Title: Re: Dharma Wheel Heavy Weights
Content:
Drenpa said:
Have you commented here on DW at greater length about the insights gained from these stories/koans?

Astus wrote:
No, I have not. But if there is a koan you want to discuss with others, why not open a topic for that in the Zen section?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 21st, 2018 at 7:16 PM
Title: Re: Recommendations for Yogacara works?
Content:
Matt J said:
I'm not really sure why you want to divorce Zen from the Buddha.

Astus wrote:
This is only about the role of the Lankavatara Sutra in Zen, nothing more.

Matt J said:
Some quips from Red Pine, who knows more than me about Chan and the Lankavatara

Astus wrote:
That does not show the role of the sutra in Zen, it only makes a number of generic statements based on personal assumptions.

Matt J said:
As for Yogacara, you're probably the first scholar/practitioner I've come across who denies that Yogacara had an influence on Zen/Chan.

Astus wrote:
Perhaps it'd be better to be more specific about what is meant by "Yogacara" and what counts as an influence. Xuanzang died in 664, Shenhui was born in 684, Mazu was born in 709, so if there had been a Yogacara influence, it should have been that of Xuanzang's. But even if we consider the Dilun and Shelun, as thecowisflying noted, there should be some doctrinal correspondence pointed out for that. However, it doesn't look like that Zen had anything like that, but if you have something to the contrary, please show.

This doesn't sound very Yogacara to me:
"since the past this teaching of ours has first taken nonthought as its central doctrine, the formless as its essence, and nonabiding as its fundamental."
(Platform Sutra, ch 4, BDK ed, p 43)

Another summary from a few hundred years later:
"Question: What is the characteristic of this school?
Answer: The Zen school has the Diamond Sutra and the Vimalakirti Sutra as its main references. Its principle is that the mind is nothing other than the Buddha. A mind freed from clinging to anything constitutes its religious act. Its purpose is [to cause people to realize] that everything that has its own characteristics is empty of self-nature. Since the Buddha handed down the robe and bowl to Kasyapa, transmission from master to disciple has not changed. Details are known from the records."
(A Treatise on Letting Zen Flourish, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 101)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 21st, 2018 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Recommendations for Yogacara works?
Content:
Matt J said:
Is it your position that the Lankavatara was not passed down from Bodhidharma to the early Patriarchs?

Astus wrote:
As for the role of the Lankavatara Sutra: "Although this scripture apparently had some kind of mysterious appeal to the followers of early Ch'an, there is no evidence that its contents had any particular impact on the development of the school." (John R. McRae: The Northern School and the Formation of Early Ch'an Buddhism, p 29)

And even if the Lankavatara Sutra was used to some extent by the early Chan teachers - although there is little evidence for that - the later tradition clearly did not use it much. Just a quick search showed that in the Blue Cliff Record the sutra is referenced twice, in Dahui's letters and the Book of Serenity quoted once and referred to once, and in the Collected Works of Chinul, in Dogen's two works (Shobogenzo, Eihei Koroku), in the Records of Baizhang and Linji there is no mention of it at all.

Matt J said:
I would say now that Zen draws a lot of its teaching from the Tathagatagarbha/Yogacara strands of Buddhism.

Astus wrote:
Chan was supplemented mostly by Sanlun (Madhyamaka), Tiantai, and Huayan teachings, if we want to specify particular sets of doctrines. Neither the Faxian (Yogacara) teachings, nor the Yogacarabhumishastra is used as a source material to support Chan teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 20th, 2018 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Recommendations for Yogacara works?
Content:
Matt J said:
The prime text of Chan used to be the Lankavatara.

Astus wrote:
The Lankavatara was relevant within the East Mountain ("Northern") School, but the Diamond Sutra was the most prominent with the Southern School, and continues to be up until today. There are only three commentaries on the sutra itself in the Taisho: T1789, 4 vols, by Zongle (Linji Chan, 1318–1391); T1790, 1 vol, by Fazang (Huayan, 643–712); T1791, 10 vol, by Baochen (?-688?). But there are other commentaries in the Zokuzokyo, in volumes 17 and 18 there are 14 in all (2 from Tang, 3 from Song, 8 from Ming, 1 from Qing era), like X321, 3 vols, by Zhiyan (671?-722?); X323, 6 vols, by Shanyue (Tiantai, 1149-1241); X324, 4 vols, by Zhengshou (Yunmen Chan, 1147-1209); X329, 9 vols, by Zhixu (Jingtu, 1599-1655).


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 19th, 2018 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Recommendations for Yogacara works?
Content:
Astus wrote:
- http://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_Beta_T1593_SummaryoftheGreatVehicle_2003.pdf?file=1&type=node&id=475 (PDF)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana-sutra-alamkara-karika
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyanta-vibhaga-karika
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidharma-samuccaya
- http://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_ThreeShortTreatises_2017.pdf?file=1&type=node&id=787 (PDF)
- http://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_Alpha_ThreeTextsonConsciousnessOnly_1999.pdf?file=1&type=node&id=456 (PDF)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, February 16th, 2018 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Best Taisho Tripitaka translation?
Content:
Astus wrote:
The http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT/index_en.html has not been translated to English, only some texts in it.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 14th, 2018 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: Traces of scholasticism in (Zen) Buddhism
Content:
MattiV said:
do I really have to spend a lifetime to understand the various distinctions in the (Zen) Buddhist tradition?

Astus wrote:
If you want to understand the various distinctions, then most likely. If you want to focus on gaining a foothold in the tradition - entering the gate of no gate - then the quickest way is to follow an authentic teacher's instructions and practise as if your head were on fire.

As for some practical/companion literature for Zen practice:

Yunqi Zhuhong: https://books.google.hu/books?id=qGPDBAAAQBAJ
Seosan Hyujeong: Seonga Gwigam ( http://www.acmuller.net/kor-bud/collected_works.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, February 13th, 2018 at 4:29 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
ItsRaining said:
I see this quote a lot from the Lanka a lot in Chinese That which is void is know as the One Mind. The One Mind is the Tathagatabarbha. Tathagatabarbha is the trapped Dharmakaya
寂灭者，名为一心。一心者，即如来藏。如来藏，亦是在缠法身

Astus wrote:
That is not in the Lankavatara, but the http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T48n2016_004#0434c04, where it is claimed to be a quote from the Lankavatara. Only in http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/zh-cn/T16n0671_001#0518c20 there is something similar: Nirvana is called one mind, one mind is called tathagatagarbha, entering the realm of personal wisdom (sva-pratyatma-gati-gocara) is the anutpattika-dharma-ksanti-samadhi. (寂滅者名為一心，一心者名為如來藏，入自內身智慧境界，得無生法忍三昧。)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 12th, 2018 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
I think we might need to politely agree to disagree.

Astus wrote:
What is there to disagree with? The term "one mind" does not appear in that passage in any of the translations in Chinese, nor even in Suzuki's English translation.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, February 11th, 2018 at 5:58 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Master Chin Kung advocates the dual practice of Ch'an and Pure Land.

Astus wrote:
Dual practice means cultivating the mind in this life and vowing to be born in the Pure Land in the next life. The level of one's cultivation now defines the rank one can gain in the Pure Land. Here are the four possibilities of Zen-PL practice connection from Yongming with the explanation of Zongben:

"First: Zen without Pure Land. Nine out of ten people take the wrong road here. If objects appear before them [as they meditate], they immediately follow them off.
This choice means that people only [strive to] illuminate reality-nature, and do not make vows to be born in the Pure Land. But as long as they flow along in this world “Endurance,” there is the danger of falling back [into delusion] … Second: Pure Land without Zen. Of ten thousand who practice [Pure Land Buddhism], ten thousand go [to the Pure Land]. They just get to see Amitabha Buddha: what worry is there that they won’t be enlightened?
This choice means that they have not yet illuminated reality-nature, but they just vow to be born in the Pure Land. Because they are riding upon the power of Buddha, they are sure to be free from doubt. Third: Both Zen and Pure Land. This is like putting horns on a tiger [adding to its already formidable powers]. In this life these people will be teachers, and in lives to come they will be buddhas and patriarchs.
Since they profoundly comprehend the Buddha Dharma, they can be teachers to devas and humans. Moreover, they take vows to go to the Pure Land and ascend quickly to the stage from which there is no falling back … Fourth: Neither Zen or Pure Land. This brings the torments of hell for ten thousand eons, with no one to rely on.
They do not understand the principles of Buddha, nor do they make vows to be born in the Pure Land. They sink down [into the sea of suffering] for eternal ages with no way to get out."
(Pure Land, Pure Mind, p 68-69)

As you quoted:

"These three factors are the cornerstones of Pure Land Buddhism. If they are present, rebirth in the Pure Land is achieved.
Faith means faith in Amitabha Buddha’s Vows to rescue all who recite His name, as well as faith in one’s own Self-Nature, which is intrinsically the same as His (to recite the Buddha’s name is to recite the Mind).
Vows are the determination to be reborn in the Pure Land – in one’s pure mind – so as to be in the position to save oneself and others.
Practice generally means reciting the Buddha’s name to the point where one’s Mind and that of Amitabha Buddha are in unison – i.e. to the point of singlemindness. Samadhi and wisdom are then achieved."

These three elements clarify the requirements of practice very well. Based on faith and vows one can gain birth, without them there is no birth in the Pure Land. The aim of practice, the way the mind is cultivated, is through developing one-pointed concentration, and that is called union. This type of buddha-remembrance samadhi is a high level of samatha/calming practice. Although it might be called a Zen practice, it is Zen only in the common sense of dhyana, not the Zen of Bodhidharma. The practice that matches the Zen of the patriarchs is the real mark buddha remembrance. You can read more about the four methods https://ymba.org/books/buddhism-wisdom-faith-pure-land-principles-and-practice/essentials-pure-land/5-practice-buddha.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, February 10th, 2018 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
This is from Master Chin Kung speaking on the Surangama Sutra

Astus wrote:
Master Chin Kung is a teacher of the Pure Land path that does not seek enlightenment in this life. He considers Mahasthamaprapta as the one to introduce single minded concentration. But it is not about gaining enlightenment in one life. Please see the below quotes from http://www.amitabha-gallery.org/pdf/mck/BuddhismAwakeningCandW.pdf your quote is originally from:

"Without being born into the Pure Land and meeting Buddha Amitabha, we will only fulfill the second and third vows of severing all afflictions and mastering all methods but will find it difficult to attain Buddhahood.
In the Avatamsaka Sutra, both Manjusri Bodhisattva and Samantabhadra Bodhisattva had reached the level of equal enlightenment and vowed to be born into the Pure Land. I was surprisingly pleased to discover this when I gave talks on the Avatamsaka Sutra. I wondered why enlightened Bodhisattvas in the Avatamsaka World would want to be born into the Western Pure Land. Considering how wonderful their own world was, it seemed unnecessary for them to do so but after thinking about it, I realized that they had vowed to go there to be able to attain Buddhahood in a shorter time. If not for this, there would be no reason to go to the Pure Land of Buddha Amitabha.
Suddenly, I realized that if we wanted to attain the perfect complete enlightenment, we needed to go to the Western Pure Land."
(p 57)

"It was the Avatamsaka Sutra that guided me to Pure Land Buddhism. I lectured on this sutra for seventeen years. Later, I only lectured on the “Chapter of Samantabhadra’s Conduct and Vows” from the Avatamsaka Sutra. During these seventeen years, I deeply comprehended the meaning of the Ten Great Vows of Samantabhadra Bodhisattva in guiding beings to the Western Pure Land. This Pure Land is the essence and the final destination of the Avatamsaka. From this experience, I realized that the ancient masters were right."
(p 95-96)

"most people do not realize the true value of Buddha Name Chanting. So, the Buddha had to teach all the sutras to guide sentient beings to the Pure Land.
Master Shandao told us that the only purpose for all Buddhas to manifest in the world is to tell us of the original vows of Buddha Amitabha."
(p 99)

Talking about himself:

"What about me? I am determined to go to the Pure Land. I will not remain in this world to continue to bear the suffering."
(p 109)

The closing words of the book:

"When we recite consistently without interruption, we will soon feel an increase in our wisdom, serenity, and purity of mind. Diligent practice of this method together with unwavering belief, vows, and living a moral life can ensure fulfillment of our wish to reach the Western Pure Land."
(p 136)

Dharma Flower said:
According to Master Chin Kung above, the Surangama Sutra teaches that we can attain Buddhahood, in this lifetime, from mindfully reciting the name of Amida Buddha.

Astus wrote:
Master Ching Kung definitely does not teach such a thing, nor does the Surangama Sutra state that.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 8th, 2018 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
This is from the Surangama Sutra

Astus wrote:
That is not a reliable translation. See the http://www.buddhisttexts.org/surangama.html (p 232-233; cf. http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra08.html ):

"The basis of my practice was mindfulness of the Buddha. I became patient with the state of mind in which no mental objects arise. Now when people of this world are mindful of the Buddha, I act as their guide to lead them to the Pure Land. The Buddha has asked us how we broke through twenty-five sages speak of enlightenment to enlightenment. In order to enter samādhi, I chose no other method than to gather in the six faculties while continuously maintaining a pure mindfulness of the Buddha."

Two things should be specifically noted. The first one is that in the sutra this method is not selected as the best one. The second is that it talks about how one establishes a connection with a buddha, and it is used in the Pure Land school as a reference about how one can gain birth in Sukhavati. What is used as the Chan/Zen method is that of Avalokitesvara, not Mahasthamaprapta.

Dharma Flower said:
According to the above passage, those who recite the name of Amida Buddha can, in the present time or in the future time, attain Buddhahood "without any other expedient means." This is to say that the Nembutsu itself is sufficient for seeing into and realizing our own Buddha-nature.

Astus wrote:
It says only mindfulness of buddha, not recitation. Mindfulness of buddha in Zen is not recitation by mouth, nor even focusing on thoughts, but as Daoxin said:

"the mind which is "thinking on Buddha" is called thinking on no object ... Why is this? Consciousness is without form. The Buddha lacks any outer appearance. When you understand this truth, it is identical to calming the mind"
(Early Ch’an in China and Tibet, p 108, tr David Chappell; https://www.dailyzen.com/journal/the-fundamental-expedient-teachings )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, February 8th, 2018 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Pure Land teachings from a Zen perspective
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
The point is whether or not reciting the name of Amida Buddha brings one closer to realizing our true Buddha-self.

Astus wrote:
Mere recitation of words may facilitate achieving a concentrated mind, but that is as far as it can bring oneself.

"People say, “Your own mind is the Pure Land, so you cannot be born in the Pure Land; your own nature is Amitābha, so Amitābha cannot be seen.” These words seem to be correct and yet are wrong. That buddha has no craving or anger, so do I also have no craving or anger? That buddha transforms hell into lotus flower (realms) as easily as turning over his hands, yet I always fear falling into hell because of the power of karma, so how can there be this transformation into a lotus flower (realm)? That buddha contemplates the endless worlds as if they were in front of his eyes, but I still do not even know matters beyond the intervening wall, so how can I see the worlds of all directions as if they are in front of my eyes? Therefore, even though everybody’s nature is Buddha, since in practice they are sentient beings, if we refer to their attributes and functions, they are as far different as heaven and earth."
(Hyujeong: Seonga Gwigam, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 123-124)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, February 7th, 2018 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Is Zen Buddhism the "Successor" of Classic Taoism?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Please look at Chengguan's words:

豈言象之能至。故云迥出。又借斯亡絶以遣言思。 (T36n1736_p0002b19)
Words may resemble very much. But the cause (behind it) is very different. We borrow the words but not accept their meaning.
言有濫同釋教者。皆是佛法之餘。 (T35n1735_p0521 b15-16)
Those who go too far and equate [false teachings] with Buddhism are all outside of the Buddhadharma.
無得求一時之小名。渾三教之一致。習邪見之毒種。為地獄之深因。開無明之源流。遏種智之玄路。誡之誡之。(T36n1736_p0107 a11-13)
Do not seek after the trivial reputation of a single age and confuse the three teachings as one. Studying the poisonous seeds of false views is a deep cause for being born in hell, opens up the wellspring of ignorance, and blocks of the road to omniscience. Take heed! Take heed!

Guifeng Zongmi on Confucianism and Daoism:

"The main thrust of the non-Buddhist teachings, however, is to establish the conduct for humanity, not to inquire into its ultimate origin. The myriad things discussed in the two teachings are limited to the phenomenal world. Although they point to the great Dao as the root, they do not completely explain agreeability and adversity, arising and ceasing, purity and defilement, or causes and conditions. Consequently, those who practice these teachings are not aware that the doctrines are provisional and cling to them as perfect teachings."
(Treatise on the Origin of Humanity, in Three Short Treatises, BDK ed, p 149)

Dogen wrote:

"no student of Kongzi and Laozi has ever fathomed the Buddha-Dharma. People today of the great kingdom of Song mostly uphold the principle of agreement between Kongzi and Laozi and the Buddha’s truth. It is the gravest of wrong views"
"Kongzi, Laozi, Zhuangzi, Huizi, and suchlike are just common people. They could not reach the level of even a srotāpanna of the Small Vehicle; how much less could they reach the level of the second [effect] or the third [effect] or an arhat of the fourth [effect]? That students, however, out of ignorance, put them on a par with the buddhas, is “in the midst of delusion, deepening delusion.” Kongzi and Laozi are not only ignorant of the three times and ignorant of the many kalpas; they are not able to know one instant of mindfulness and not able to know one moment of the mind. They do not bear comparison even with the gods of the sun and the moon and they cannot equal the four great kings and the hosts of gods. Whether in the secular sphere or beyond the secular sphere, [seen] in comparison with the World-honored One, they are straying in delusion."
(Shizen-biku, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 4, p 268, 275-276)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, February 5th, 2018 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: "All Buddha-Nature is One"
Content:
DGA said:
"all Buddha-nature is one"

Astus wrote:
Buddha-nature is a quality, not an object, and that quality is emptiness.

"The Mind is Buddha.  All Buddhas and all sentient beings have the same Buddha-Nature and one Mind.  Therefore, Bodhidharma came from the West only to transmit the One-Mind Doctrine.  However, since the mind of all sentient beings is the same as original Buddha-Nature, there is no need to practice; for if one recognizes one's own Mind and sees one's own Nature, there is nothing at all to seek outside oneself.  But how is one to recognize one's own Mind?  Just that Mind itself that wants to perceive the Mind - that is your own Mind, which is as void as Original Mind and is without words and function."
"Just know, above all, that non-differentiating Mind is the Buddha, that Buddha is the Mind and that the Mind is voidness.  Therefore, the real Dharmakaya is just voidness.  It is not necessary to seek anything whatsoever, and all who do continue to seek for something only prolong their suffering in samsara."
(Huangbo, in the https://ymba.org/books/dharma-mind-transmission/wan-ling-record )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 6:08 PM
Title: Re: How are Madhyamaka and Yogacara teachings actually realised?
Content:
ItsRaining said:
But how did they realise the specific teachings in their systems? If they practiced the same things why were their teachings/realisation different?

Astus wrote:
While there are shared practices, just as Buddhism in general shares techniques with other Indian religions, when it comes to the wisdom part, Madhyamaka and Yogacara use different contemplations than the Sravaka Abhidharmikas. So you could say that samatha practices are mostly common, vipasyana is mostly not.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 6:00 PM
Title: Re: Silent Illumination and Liberation?
Content:
Zafutales said:
how ‘Silent Illumination’ (Shikantaza) can help bring about an end to suffering?

Astus wrote:
Silent means to be without attachment, illumination means to be aware. Consider your hearing. The ear contains no sound, it is totally silent, and at the same time, it hears all sounds, it is totally illuminating. If there were an original sound, no other sound could occur. If one wanted not to hear any sound at all, it would only mean a constant struggle with noises. Hence the only thing to do is to not do anything, the ear naturally hears without getting stuck at any sound. This is true for the other five senses as well.
Therefore, there is no ending of suffering, because suffering itself is false. Suffering is the delusion of trying to hold on to or avoid some sound. Once it becomes clear that no sound can be kept or pushed away, there is no more craving and no more dissatisfaction.

Zafutales said:
if we can sit quietly allowing thoughts to drop away then we will experience our true nature

Astus wrote:
The true nature should be seen before a thought arises, when a thought arises, when a thought has arisen, when a thought disappears, and when a thought has disappeared. If it is a nature that can be hidden, it is not true at all.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 30th, 2018 at 4:49 PM
Title: Re: Zazen and liberation
Content:
Zafutales said:
Can someone help me understand how ‘Silent Illumination’ (Shikantaza) can help bring about an end to suffering?

Astus wrote:
There are some differences between Mozhao and Shikantaza, mostly that the latter has a special emphasis on posture. But they both teach the same old practice of no-thought and no-mind as you can find it in the Platform Sutra. In other words, when the mind does not grasp at the six senses, there is no abiding anywhere, hence no craving nor suffering emerges. And in order to to grasp, not to abide, one only has to see directly that the six sensory phenomena are absolutely unstable, in other words empty, and that emptiness is the true nature.

Zafutales said:
if we can sit quietly allowing thoughts to drop away then we will experience our true nature – is it a similar ‘method’ when using Silent Illumination and Shikantaza?

Astus wrote:
Dogen wrote:

"In recent years, however, stupid unreliable people have said, “In the effort of zazen, to attain peace of mind is everything. Just this is the state of tranquility.” This opinion is beneath even scholars of the Small Vehicle. It is inferior even to the vehicles of humans and gods. How can we call such people students of the Buddha-Dharma?"
(Zazenshin, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 2, p 116)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 25th, 2018 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Seeking enlightenment (satori/bodhi)
Content:
MattiV said:
Now, one of the most remarkable things about certain ideas in Zen Buddhism is that it seems to be aimless in the every day sense of the word.
Yet millions of practitioners of various schools of Buddhism seek enlightenment. But in Zen Buddhism - as I have understood it - the very act
of seeking is an obstacle, a hindrance, a no-no. Am I right or just confused?

Astus wrote:
A Zen practitioner definitely must have goals, particularly those specified in the four great vows of every bodhisattva: save all beings, eradicate defilements, learn all teachings, and attain buddhahood. Without those vows there is no Zen.

Aimlessness (apranihita) is one of the three gates of liberation, the other two are signlessness (animitta) and emptiness (sunyata). When it is taught that one should not seek anything, it means that there is nothing to seek, because all appearances are ungraspable. It is not about intentionally trying to not look forward to enlightenment or to pretend that one is merely sitting without any purpose.

MattiV said:
As for me, I'm happy to just sit and try to improve my awareness. I'm seeking neither my true self nor an egoless pure awareness.
Why? Because I'dont have the slightest idea what those are about, what they mean.

Astus wrote:
If, as you wrote, your practice is counting/following the breath, then you should consider reading up on how breath awareness should be actually cultivated. On the one hand, you can find good resources by Theravadin authors on Anapanasati, or you can check out teachings closer to Zen, like http://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/sgs_book_page.htm, http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/chanmed1.pdf, http://www.thienvientuquang.org/kinhsach/english/KeysToBuddhism.pdf, and various works by Thich Nhat hanh.

MattiV said:
Of course I want to become a better person. But it seems to me that words like 'trying' 'improving', 'wanting', 'becoming' etc. have been blown to pieces in Zen Buddhism, or in some versions of it.

Astus wrote:
That is a misinterpretation, somewhat. True, if one can actually get to see that all experiences are originally unestablished hence there is nowhere to abide, then that is realising the futility of seeking. But to intentionally not seek peace, liberation, and wisdom, that is the wrong direction.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, January 23rd, 2018 at 6:51 PM
Title: Re: What counts as a Buddhist teaching?
Content:
Astus wrote:
“There are five things, Bhāradvāja, that may turn out in two different ways here and now. What five? Faith, approval, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, and reflective acceptance of a view. These five things may turn out in two different ways here and now. Now something may be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Again, something may be fully approved of…well transmitted…well cogitated…well reflected upon, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well reflected upon, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Under these conditions it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’”
( https://suttacentral.net/en/mn95 )

“Though certain recluses and brahmins claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging…they describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self. They do not understand one instance…therefore they describe only the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self.”
( https://suttacentral.net/en/mn11 )

“Wherever, Subhadda, the Noble Eightfold Path is not found in a Teaching and Discipline there a true ascetic is not found, there a second true ascetic is not found, there a third true ascetic is not found, there a fourth true ascetic is not found.
But wherever, Subhadda, the Noble Eightfold Path is found in a Teaching and Discipline there a true ascetic is found, there a second true ascetic is found, there a third true ascetic is found, there a fourth true ascetic is found.
In this Teaching and Discipline, Subhadda, the Noble Eightfold Path is found, here a true ascetic is found, here a second true ascetic is found, here a third true ascetic is found, here a fourth true ascetic is found.”
( https://suttacentral.net/en/dn16 )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, January 18th, 2018 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: How do I go deeper into Zen practice?
Content:
mddrill said:
What should I do if I want to go deeper into my Buddhist practice, but don't really know how to go about it or even I'm looking for? I've heard something about taking refuge and vows, would that be a good place to start?

Astus wrote:
While seeking for the ideal teacher, you could try to clarify the basics of Buddhism:

http://hsingyun.org/books/core-teachings/
http://chancenter.org/cmc/publications/free-literature/
http://www.fgsitc.org/booklet/page/7/


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, January 6th, 2018 at 7:01 PM
Title: Re: Sarvāstivāda vinaya section
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
the section of the Sarvāstivāda vinaya

Astus wrote:
http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T23n1435_037#0269c15

cf. http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe20/sbe20018.htm


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 27th, 2017 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Eternal != Perpetual
Content:
MiphamFan said:
"eternal" to the mediaevals was not the same as "perpetual". "Eternal" means something outside of time completely, while "perpetual" is something that still exists within time itself.

Astus wrote:
What is atemporal is not functional, has no connection to anything, therefore it simply does not exist. At the same time, whatever exists is necessarily functional and temporal. See arguments in chapter 9 of Aryadeva's Catuhsataka.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 27th, 2017 at 6:46 PM
Title: Re: How did the originally pure nature become defiled?
Content:
ItsRaining said:
The Awakening of Faith says that Ignorance can perfume Tathata, so ignorance which in reality Tathata itself can effect the pure suchness? But then this ignorance can’t rise again once removed because it’s cause is extinguished?

Astus wrote:
The treatise differentiates between the permeation of ignorance and the permeation of suchness. The former is how delusion originates, the latter is how enlightenment comes about. Then "Because of the cessation of ignorance, there will be no more rising of the deluded activities of mind." But it is not the case that suchness is in any way affected or changed: "The essence of Suchness knows no increase or decrease in ordinary men, the Hinayanists, the Bodhisattvas, or the Buddhas. It was not brought into existence in the beginning nor will it cease to be at the end of time; it is eternal through and through."

Let's translate this into other terms. The aggregates are impermanent. Conceiving the aggregates as permanent is ignorance, but it does not negate impermanence. Realising that the aggregates are impermanent is liberating knowledge, but it does not make the aggregates impermanent. Once the wrong view of permanence is completely gone, there is no more basis for attachment to arise again.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 26th, 2017 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: How did the originally pure nature become defiled?
Content:
ItsRaining said:
Many texts and practitioners talk about how the mind was originally pure: Huineng, Shen Xiu, Chen Guang, Awakening of Faith, etc but if so how did it become deluded?

Astus wrote:
It is not that first there is a pure ground that gets defiled, but the true nature of defilement has always been purity. The Awakening of Faith in Mahayana, for instance, has an extensive explanation on what being deluded means.

ItsRaining said:
And if something pure can be deluded what stop the pure minds of the Buddhas from becoming afflicted again?

Astus wrote:
Ignorance has no beginning, while if the cause of delusion is removed, there is no basis upon which it can recur.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 26th, 2017 at 6:41 PM
Title: Re: Karma in Mahāyāna
Content:
markatex said:
In the Nikayas/Agamas, it’s said that not everything that happens is the result of karma. I was under the impression (perhaps wrongly) that the Mahāyāna sutras state otherwise. Is this correct? Are there Mahāyāna texts where this is discussed?

Astus wrote:
Even the Nikayas do not say that there are experiences not from action. Please read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's introduction to the https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.021.than.html. As it is stated in the Kosha (vol 2, p 477): "by reason of the collective action of beings, there appears the first signs of a future physical world", so the physical world itself appears because of past action. As for Mahayana, the three worlds are nothing but the fabrications of mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 26th, 2017 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: What practices would Madhyamakin and Yogacarins actually have done?
Content:
ItsRaining said:
Any particular sutra out of these you recommend?

Astus wrote:
Unless you read Chinese, just go through everything available in English. Also, there are mainly two additions to what was already taught in the sravaka texts: the contemplation (through visualisation and recitation) of buddhas and bodhisattvas, and the contemplation (through analysis) of the emptiness of appearances. Because of the latter addition, Madhyamika and Yogacarin works are also instructions for meditation.

Some meditation focused scriptures and a treatise:

- http://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_T0614_SutraConcentration_2009_0.pdf
- http://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_Pratyutpanna_Surangama_1998_0.pdf
- http://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_ThreePureLandSutras_2003_0.pdf
- http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra13.html
- http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra20.html
- Kumārajīva: https://web.archive.org/web/20150518100726/http://www.thichhangdat.com/files/Master_Thesis.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 25th, 2017 at 7:15 PM
Title: Re: What practices would Madhyamakin and Yogacarins actually have done?
Content:
Vasana said:
The end of analysis results in the nonconceptual union of shamatha/vippassana. Correct madhyamika view leads to direct cognition / direct yogic perception.

Astus wrote:
That is a fairly late interpretation that fuses Madhyamaka with Yogacara and Pramana, furthermore, it does not specify the methods used.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 25th, 2017 at 5:14 PM
Title: Re: What practices would Madhyamakin and Yogacarins actually have done?
Content:
Astus wrote:
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_sutras and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_texts#Samadhi_Sutras.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 25th, 2017 at 4:57 PM
Title: Re: "Summarizing" Buddhadharma
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
The profoundly, truly, and absolutely clear mind encounters any thing/dharma whatsoever, and awakening is understood/has happened.

Astus wrote:
That seems to attempt to summarise only awakening, not the whole of Buddhadharma.

1. "profoundly, truly, and absolutely" - What do these adverbs stand for? What is a superficial compared to profound, a false to true, a relative to absolute type of clear mind?

2. "clear mind" - What mind and clean from what?

3. "encounters" - Since mind and thing encounters, does that mean they exist separately? If they are not separate, how can they encounter?

4. "awakening" - Awakening to what?

5. "is understood/has happened" - If understood, was it understood after the encounter, or simultaneously with encounter? If it's happened, has it happened only once or every time there is an encounter?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 22nd, 2017 at 5:34 PM
Title: Re: Upside Down Thinking
Content:
Astus wrote:
"Buddhism is about being clear about the mind that you have."

Mindfulness is a popular cloud.

"See what is actually happening in the moment."

It is seeing only if one can tell the difference between the wholesome and unwholesome, but it becomes practising only when unwholesome thoughts are not generated anew and those already there abandoned, and wholesome thoughts are generated and those already there are cultivated. It is then that there is some difference made.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 18th, 2017 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
Mistaken ideas about the path are impediments to awakening, but they are not impediments to gathering accumulations, devotion, and so on, and gradually, one will overcome such mistakes, especially if one learns to train in ultimate bodhicitta, śamatha and vipaśyāna.

Astus wrote:
True, it is the beginning of the path and one may have erroneous views. Still, in order to establish motivation, it has its own conditions.

The Awakening of Mahayana Faith (ch 3, tr Hakeda, p 79) talks of three possible types: "Briefly, three types of aspiration for enlightenment can be distinguished. The first is the aspiration for enlightenment through the perfection of faith. The second is the aspiration for enlightenment through understanding and through deeds. The third is the aspiration for enlightenment through insight." There faith is the very beginning, where one has to cultivate three minds: "The first is the mind characterized by straightforwardness, for it correctly meditates on the principle of Suchness. The second is the mind of profoundness, for there is no limit to its joyful accumulation of all kinds of goodness. The third is the mind filled with great compassion, for it wishes to uproot the sufferings of all sentient beings." (p 80-81)

Asanga defines a mahayanika this way: "What is a person belonging to the Great Vehicle? It is a person who, having obtained or not the attainments, dwelling in the Dharma of the Bodhisattvas, having sharp faculties by nature, set on the liberation of all beings, having the intention of attaining unestablished Nirvana, dependent on the Canon of the Bodhisattvas, practicing the major and minor virtues by means of the cultivation of vigor, ripens beings, cultivates the pure stage of the Buddhas, receives the prediction and attains Perfect Awakening." (Abhidharmasamuccaya, tr Boin-Webb, p 200)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, December 16th, 2017 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
any practice one with Mahāyāna motivation becomes a Mahāyāna practice

Astus wrote:
How can motivation be a sufficient criteria? That would mean even a mistaken idea about the path leads to buddhahood.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 15th, 2017 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
Your answer is a non sequitur.

Astus wrote:
In that case I was simply wrong in my presumption that by that you were rejecting the whole section on there being more to Mahayana than having motivation.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 15th, 2017 at 8:33 PM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
I don’t accept the 55 level scheme.

Astus wrote:
I don't think that's a problem, since it is not important in Zen except for some advocates of gradual practice. The point still remains, however, that to have the bodhisattva motivation one needs some level of faith and understanding as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 15th, 2017 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
This refers strictly to āryabodhisattvas. It does not refer to bodhisattvas on the paths of accumulation or application.

Astus wrote:
What I meant is that vow is not enough, one also needs some level of understanding, faith, renunciation, and compassion, since without those even the vow is baseless. So for instance the Surangama Sutra teaches that even before one enters the ten stages of faith, one must obtain "dry wisdom", called dry because it is without sensual desire. Then the ten stages of faith means faith, remembrance, zeal, wisdom, concentration, non-retrogression, protection of the Dharma, reflection, discipline, and vow show the necessary qualities needed to progress to the following three times ten stages, then four additional practices, until one reaches the ten bhumis.

Hyjeong wrote about those 55 levels:

"The fifty-five stations are simply the results obtained after resting the mind and removing falsities. Therefore, before completing the full (final) station (of buddhahood), if you reach level one, you will be satisfied with gaining a little and give rise to a pride in knowing and understanding the Dharma (completely). But in the end, if you enter great awareness (enlightenment), the former stations you passed through will all be illusions, and be useless states. Therefore a patriarchal teacher said, “I would rather die than walk through the fifty-five stations.”"
(Abstracts of the Essentials of the Mind Dharma, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 231)

And Huangbo:

"there is fast and slow in realizing this mind: there are those who attain no-mind in a single moment of thought after hearing the Dharma; those who attain no-mind after [passing through] the ten faiths, the ten abodes, the ten practices, and the ten conversions; and those who attain no-mind after [passing through] the ten stages [of the bodhisattva]. In spite of the length of time it takes them to [attain it, once they] reside in no-mind there is nothing else to be cultivated or realized. Truly without anything to be attained, true and not false [is no-mind]. Whether it is attained in a single moment of thought or at the tenth stage [of the bodhisattva], its efficacy is identical. There are no further gradations of profundity, only the useless striving of successive eons."
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 16)

So Linji said:

"But because you students lack faith in yourselves, you run around seeking something outside. Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch. Make no mistake, worthy Chan men! If you don’t find it here and now, you’ll go on transmigrating through the three realms for myriads of kalpas and thousands of lives, and, held in the clutch of captivating circumstances, be born in the wombs of asses or cows."
(Record of Linji, p 8, tr Sasaki)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, December 14th, 2017 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
Obviously your first contention is wrong since the four foundations of mindfulness are found by that name in countless Mahāyāna sūtras.

Astus wrote:
The name is there, the content varies.

Malcolm said:
Any practice done with Mahāyāna motivation becomes a Mahāyāna practice.

Astus wrote:
Motivation is only one half.

"If a bodhisattva abides in the signs of self, person, sentient being, or life-span, she or he is not a bodhisattva."
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 3)

"Having generated the great mind to realize bodhi, it is necessary to recognize what constitutes the essence of the bodhi mind. Now, as for the substance of the bodhi mind, if one fails to generate it from one’s true mind, there is no source through which one might succeed in reaching bodhi. On account of this, it is essential that one differentiate clearly [what it is]. Only then does this result in Dharma practice which corresponds to correct causality."
(Peixiu: http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/Bcitta_excerpts/Bcitta_X-01_X-05.pdf )


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 13th, 2017 at 6:36 PM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
There are of course differences in the presentations, but it is incorrect to state that the four foundations of mindfulness are absent in Mahāyāna, which was your contention above.

Astus wrote:
My points above were: 1. the four foundations of mindfulness is considered a hearer method, 2. the method taught within Mahayana is different from those in the sravakayana. So, I am not debating that there are various methods called four foundations of mindfulness in Mahayana, it's just that they are not identical to what one finds in Theravada.

Malcolm said:
People studying Abhidharma in the Tibetan tradition practice them in the same manner.

Astus wrote:
I presume you mean the Kosha here, hence it is in the context of the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 12th, 2017 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: All is One
Content:
Astus wrote:
"Two comes from one,
Yet do not even keep the one.
When one mind does not arise,
Myriad dharmas are without defect."
(Sengcan: https://terebess.hu/english/hsin3.html#7 )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 12th, 2017 at 7:22 PM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
There are far more sources for the four foundations of mindfulness than that sutta. Mahāyāna is very rich with them.

Astus wrote:
The question still remains: who practises them? Also, what constitutes a "Mahayana smrtyupasthana" is not the same as in Theravada. Hence it is neither practised nor accepted because it is viewed as a sravaka method.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 12th, 2017 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
No, the four foundations of mindfulness are found throughout all Buddhadharma.

Astus wrote:
And the four noble truths are not? Also, do you know a Mahayana tradition that actually practises what is written in the Satipatthana Sutta? However, even if the four foundations of mindfulness are discussed, it is differentiated from the sravakayana version, or simply reinterpreted.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 12th, 2017 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
By whom?

Astus wrote:
By those who say that the sravakayana is the four noble truths.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 8th, 2017 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
They do not contain zazen instructions which we are talking about.

Astus wrote:
I did not write zazen instructions, I wrote "private instructions and personal stories". It could also be added that meditation manuals were very much present both in the format of translated scriptures and treatises from India, and those authored in China. So if Chan had had anything to add there, it would have done so.

Matylda said:
Moreover academic assertions that zen was not conceived as the "meditation school", especially not in the format of emphasising sitting etc. is mere intelectual fabrication and misses greatly the point.

Astus wrote:
Can you show something that proves the "academic assertions" wrong? As for how I take it, Chan was posited as the supreme vehicle above the bodhisattvayana, so the standard Mahayana methods are not within the scope of Chan teachings. Of course, that does not mean those are rejected.

I think Baizhang explains this quite well:

"The complete teaching discusses purity; the incomplete teaching discusses impurity. Explaining the defilement in impure things is to weed out the profane; explaining the defilement in pure things is to weed out the holy.
Before the nine-part teaching had been expounded, living beings had no eyes; it was necessary to depend on someone to refine them. If you are speaking to a deaf worldling, you should just teach him to leave home, maintain discipline, practice meditation and develop wisdom. You should not speak this way to a worldling beyond measure, someone like Vimalakirti or the great hero Fu.If one is speaking to an ascetic, the ascetic has already given his assent three times and his discipline is complete. This is the power of discipline, concentration, and wisdom. To still speak in this way to him is called speaking at the wrong time, because the speech is not appropriate to the situation; it is also called suggestive talk. To an ascetic one must explain the defilement in pure things - you should tell him to detach from all things, existence, non-existent, or whatever, to detach from all cultivation and experience, and even to detach from detachment.
While in the course of asceticism, one strips away influences of habit. If an ascetic cannot get rid of the diseases of greed and aversion, he too is called a deaf worldling; still he must be taught to practice meditation and cultivate wisdom."
(Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 29-30)

Zongmi put it this way:

"(In the Buddha's preaching of the previous five teachings, some are gradual and some are sudden. In the case of [sentient beings of] medium and inferior capacity, [the Buddha] proceeded from the superficial to the profound, gradually leading them forward. He would initially expound the first teaching [of Humans and Gods], enabling them to be free from evil and to abide in virtue; he would then expound the second and third [teachings of the Lesser Vehicle and the Phenomenal Appearances of the Dharmas], enabling them to be free from impurity and to abide in purity; he would finally discuss the fourth and fifth [teachings], those that Refute Phenomenal Appearances and Reveal the Nature, subsuming the provisional into the true, [enabling them] to cultivate virtue in reliance on the ultimate teaching until they finally attain Buddhahood. In the case of [sentient beings of] wisdom of the highest caliber, [the Buddha] proceeded from the root to the branch. That is to say, from the start he straightaway relied on the fifth teaching to point directly to the essence of the one true mind. When the essence of the mind had been revealed, [these sentient beings] themselves realized that everything without exception is illusory and fundamentally empty and tranquil; that it is only because of delusion that [such illusory appearances] arise in dependence upon the true [nature]; and that it is [thus] necessary to cut off evil and cultivate virtue by means of the insight of having awakened to the true, and to put an end to the false and return to the true by cultivating virtue. When the false is completely exhausted and the true is present in totality, that is called the dharmakāya Buddha.)"
(Inquiry into the Origin of Humanity, p 58)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 8th, 2017 at 3:21 PM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
SunWuKong said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati

Astus wrote:
That is mindfulness and not control of breath (pranayama).

SunWuKong said:
Tiantai and Chan.

Astus wrote:
Tiantai has the "http://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/sgs_book_page.htm", while in Chan the whole curriculum of calming and contemplation was categorised as a lower level practice.

SunWuKong said:
its worth noting in this context, that the four foundations it is practiced in is body (the body as the body, distinct from perceptions of the body), feelings (perceptions), mind (mind/heart), and Dharmas

Astus wrote:
The smrtyupasthana is considered mainly a sravakayana method.

SunWuKong said:
Also worth noting is the practice spills over into whats termed Wuji (primpordial) QiGong - which is practiced awareness of breathing + centering the awareness of the body in the dan tien + allowing the mind to be empty

Astus wrote:
In what teaching?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 8th, 2017 at 3:10 PM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
What do you mean by 'Chan school that started to publish private instructions'? Where and how?

Astus wrote:
Mainly in the lamp transmission (傳燈) and sayings records (語錄).


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 8th, 2017 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Matylda said:
The point is that one cannot find in any early and later Chinese zen texts much information about zazen direct instructions, if any then they are very obscure.

Astus wrote:
That's because Chan was not conceived as the "meditation school", especially not in the format of emphasising sitting. Quite the contrary, as one can see in the Platform Sutra and other teachings, that approach of focusing on calm contemplation was rejected, simply because that is at best the gradual path of the bodhisattva. At the same time, since meditation sutras and treatises were already available, it would have made no sense to repeat them, so instead one could just read those if needed, as for instance recommended by Zongze's manual (坐禪儀) in his/Baizhang's Qinggui (百丈清規, The Baizhang Zen Monastic Regulations, BDK ed, p 255-257).

Matylda said:
And it does not mean that they were not existant. They were passed simply in face to face manner.

Astus wrote:
Don't you think it strange that while it was the Chan school that started to publish private instructions and personal stories on a large scale somehow wanted to keep their take on meditation secret?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 6th, 2017 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
It must be the case that he carried these kinds of instructions with him, though whether they were passed on in any significant way is anybody's guess.

Astus wrote:
The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yijin_Jing is a "qigong" manual attributed to Bodhidharma, and one of the sources of "Shaolin kung-fu", even though it was actually written in the early 17th century.

Malcolm said:
Perhaps these Indian techniques never gained the popularity they experienced in India and the Himalayas because China already had a sophisticated medical system with an elaborate and functional anatomy and physiology.

Astus wrote:
Likely such methods from India were incorporated in some format into Daoist teachings, as similar techniques ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_yin ) have been applied by them even before Buddhism appeared in China.

Malcolm said:
In any case, after the fall of the Gupta, In India we see the evolution of body-based systems of practice and trend away from the intellectual edifices of Madhyamaka and Yogacara, a trend away from intellectual analysis towards yogic experience. It is obvious to me, that this fusion of yogic praxis with local understandings of anatomy and physiology becomes a more prominent feature of Mahāyana practice as time moves on.

Astus wrote:
Xuanzang visited India after the Guptas, but apparently his Yogacara couldn't compete with the native works of Zhiyi and Fazang. Even during the Yuan dynasty the later Indian developments in Buddhism could not penetrate Chinese Buddhism.

Malcolm said:
My point is that there is no reason to assume that Chan and Zen practice are not similarly influenced by body-based yogic experience, and that there has been very little translated yet into English that really speaks to such things — since academic scholars are generally more interested in intellectual analysis, even when they dress it up in poetry.

Astus wrote:
If there are translations of Daoist alchemy and yoga, not just philosophical works, why would Chan be an exception?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 6th, 2017 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Meido said:
The general approach to Zen practice as a yogic or wholly psycho-physical undertaking rather than something purely psychological and intellectual doesn't originate with Hakuin, as I have said before in other threads. The records of early (Kamakura) Zen in Japan clearly show that this emphasis existed strongly in the teachings of the late Song Chan masters (e.g. Bukko) who arrived in Japan.

Astus wrote:
Are there instructions or descriptions discussing such practices? For instance, Wumen Huakai and Gaofeng Yuanmiao were mostly the contemporaries of Bukko, but I have not seen them discussing such techniques, so that suggests - perhaps incorrectly - that physical practices were not part of mainstream kanhua Chan. Dogen could also be mentioned, even though he was in China in the early 13th century. So, while it might be a misconception that Chan (and Buddhism in general) is rather disembodied, some sources to the contrary could help clarify it.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, December 6th, 2017 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Western Myth of Zen
Content:
Meido said:
The primary Western myth of Zen is that Zen practice and awakening are psychological affairs.

Astus wrote:
Aside from Hakuin's incorporation of breath techniques, do you know of any other Buddhist school in East Asia that did something similar?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, December 5th, 2017 at 6:19 PM
Title: Re: Did the Buddha teach the Mahayana sutras?
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
Maitreya spoke of seven reasons why Mahayana Buddhism is the teaching of the Buddha. Does anyone have the text?

Astus wrote:
It's in chapter 1, verse 1 of the Mahayanasutralamkara (The Universal Vehicle Discourse Literature, p 7-8).

(The universal vehicle is the word of the buddha) because it was not previously predicted (as a danger); because the (vehicles) began together; because it is beyond the scope (of theology); because it is self-evident; because it must be since it exists, and there would be no such thing if it did not; because it has medicinal power; and because it has more to it than words.

Commentary:

"Because it was not previously predicted;" if the universal vehicle was fabricated by someone at a later time in order to interfere with the true Dharma, why did the Lord not predict it, as he did predict other future dangers?
"Because (the vehicles) began together;" it is obvious that the universal vehicle began at the same time as the disciple vehicle and not later. So why should one imagine it is not the word of the buddha?
"Because it is beyond the range (of theology);" this magnificent and profound Dharma is not within the range of theology (tarkikanam), since such a (Dharma) is not found in the theological treatises of the religious (tïrthikas). It is quite impossible that they should have taught this, since they do not believe in it even (now) when they hear it taught.
"Because it is self-evident;" even if the universal vehicle was taught by some enlightened being other (than Säkyamuni Buddha), that also proves it to be buddha-word, since a buddha is anyone who becomes perfectly enlightened and then teaches such (a vehicle).
"Because it must be since it exists, and there would be no such thing if it did not;" since there is a universal vehicle, its very existence proves it to be the word of the buddha, since there is no other universal vehicle. Or, if there were no universal vehicle, its nonexistence would entail the nonexistence of the disciple vehicle as well. It is unreasonable to insist that the disciple vehicle is the word of the buddha and the universal vehicle is not; for without a buddha-vehicle, buddhas could not originate, (and could not teach any disciples).
"Because it has medicinal power;" if one practices the universal vehicle, it serves as the ground of all nonconceptual intuitions, thereby becoming the medicine for all the mental addictions. It is therefore the word of the buddha.
"Because it has more to it than words;" its import is not just its literal meaning. Therefore, adherence to its literal meaning cannot support the notion that it is not the word of the buddha.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, December 4th, 2017 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Yuren said:
But I disagree if someone wants to make an absolutist statement and say: "it's impossible to make any progress without a personal teacher"
There are always rare exceptions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushi-dokugo

Astus wrote:
That is not the appropriate example, because the need of a teacher discussed here is about starting on the path and not about qualifying as a teacher. And while there were some notable teachers (e.g. Hanshan Deqing, Zibo Zhenke, Hakuin Ekaku, Gyeongheo Seong-U) in the history of Zen who never received certification from another, they were all monks. Although it is another question if a general training could qualify people to master specific methods, as those Zen teachers actually did. Nevertheless, the bigger question at this point is whether it is possible for someone to learn Buddhism only from books (also perhaps audio/video materials) and that way gain correct understanding.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 1st, 2017 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
Of course there are. There are reams of passages that define the qualities of a kayānamitra. The terms guru and kalayānamitra are intimately connected in Mahāyāna Sūtras.

Astus wrote:
The reason I mentioned the exclusion of the monastic side is because it seems most of the kalyanamitras are within a renounced environment. Also, what types of good friends would you list?

"Great enlightening beings have ten kinds of spiritual friends. What are they? Spiritual friends who cause them to persist in the determination for enlightenment; spiritual friends who cause them to generate roots of goodness; spiritual friends who cause them to practice the ways of transcendence; spiritual friends who enable them to analyze and explain all truths; spiritual friends who enable them to develop all sentient beings; spiritual friends who enable them to attain definitive analytic and expository powers; spiritual friends who cause them not to be attached to any world; spiritual friends who cause them to cultivate practice tirelessly in all ages; spiritual friends who establish them in the practice of Universal Good; spiritual friends who introduce them to the reaches of knowledge of all buddhas. These are the ten."
(Flower Ornament Scripture, p 1027)

"Now, one who has resolved to begin practice and who desires to cultivate calming-and-insight must first fulfill five conditions related  to  outward  circumstances.  The  first  is  the  requirement  that  one  maintain purity in practice of the moral precepts [as a bhikshu/ni].
...
The fifth [of the five prerequisite conditions] requires that one draw  near  to  good  spiritual  friends.  Good  spiritual  friends  are  of  three  types:
1) 
[Externally-Protective Good Spiritual Friends]
The  first  is  the  “externally-protective”  good  spiritual  friend  who  provides necessary provisions, makes offerings, and is well able to  take  care  of  the  practitioner’s  needs,  doing  so  in  a  fashion  which  precludes any mutual disturbance.
2) 
[Identical-Practice Good Spiritual Friends]
The second is the “identical-practice” good spiritual friend together  with  whom  one  cultivates  a  single  path.  Each  provides  the  other  with encouragement and inspiration while refraining from mutual  bother or disturbance.
3) 
[Instructive Good Spiritual Friends]
The  third  is  the  “instructive”  good  spiritual  friend  who  instructs  and delights the practitioner with teachings about the internal and  external  skillful  means  associated  with  the  Dharma  entryway  of  dhyāna absorption. This is the conclusion of the summary clarification of the five kinds of necessary prerequisites."
(Zhiyi: Xiaiozhiguan, in Essentials of Buddhist Meditation, p 39, 51)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 1st, 2017 at 7:00 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
conebeckham said:
not according to your definition...
These personal teachers are much more than that.

Astus wrote:
It can be extended, or call it another type, etc. I was mostly referring to the requirement of availability for such a personal teacher you mentioned.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 1st, 2017 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
conebeckham said:
There are also personal teachers who have ongoing relationships with students, and who can guide students gradually based on that relationship.
The sort of personal communication that exists in such relationships is the basis by which students are guided.  This was frankly the norm in Vajrayana in Tibet, for those who were committed to practice, whether in retreat or not.

Astus wrote:
Is that not the local teacher?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, December 1st, 2017 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Admin_PC said:
Maybe we should talk about the various nuances of the term “teacher”? Astus touched on it before with discussion of the term “kalyanamitra” vs “guru”. There seems like there may be different levels to the term.

Astus wrote:
If the monastic side of things is put aside, then there aren't really any clear cut definitions, even though there seem to be a few general ideas of what a teacher is. So, here's my first take on it:

Primarily, when there is a talk of a personal teacher, that sounds like having a therapist/coach who guides one's every step on the way to enlightenment. Naturally, such a teacher is assumed to be enlightened, who can tell whatever the disciple needs, hence no instruction or request is absurd enough. This vision of the awakened master - a fairly romantic notion - is the basis of guru worship gone wrong.

Secondly, there are the great teachers who one can listen to from the crowd, and their mere presence is a blessing, or at least that's how you can feel. They can talk like as if they were personally answering your deepest questions, and if you have the rare chance of asking, the reply is something that at the same time touches your heart and keeps you contemplating it even years later. These masters keep the system of teaching tours alive.

Thirdly, there are the rather ordinary looking local teachers, who regularly lead the weekly meditation sessions and perhaps give speeches too. There seems to be no reason to think much about them, since they themselves are devoted disciples of a great teacher (who may occasionally visit).

Fourthly, there are those not called teachers at all, but who are the long standing members of the group, and who help with event organisation and guiding the newcomers.

Finally, there can be someone, who is likely just a fellow practitioner, but with whom you can talk to about both mundane and supramundane topics, a person you can spend quality time with, and whom you may actually call a good friend.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 30th, 2017 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
No teacher, no path.

Astus wrote:
So it is stated clearly for Vajrayana.

"Entering the door to the teachings of Secret Mantra Vajrayana depends upon two things: ripening and liberation. Unless you first obtain the ripening empowerments, you are not authorized to hear even a single verse of the tantras, statements and instructions. (Unauthorized) people who engage in expounding on and listening to the tantras will not only fail to receive blessings; they will create immense demerit from divulging the secrecy of these teachings."
(Tsele Natsok Rangdrol: Empowerment, p 15)

"The door to Secret Mantra is empowerment that brings maturity.
The generation and perfection stages both bring freedom.
Observance of samaya is the favorable condition.
These three define the path of Mantra, faultless and supreme.
Without reception of empowerment,
No attainment can there be,
For that would be like wanting ghee from pressing sand.
And though one strives in teaching, learning, meditation,
One will go to hell.
While those who have empowerment
Are the Buddhas heirs."
(Jigme Lingpa: Treasury of Precious Qualities,  10.14-15, in vol 2, p 8)

But is there anything like that in the sutras and treatises? Are Abhidharma, Pramana, Madhyamaka, or Yogacara bound to a teacher as Tantra is?

For instance, Jamgon Kongtrul writes in the Treasury of Knowledge (Buddhist Ethics, p 41-42):

"There are countless scriptural references to the need for working with a spiritual guide. The Condensed Transcendent Wisdom Scripture states: Worthy students who respect spiritual teachers
Should always remain close to learned masters
Because from them the virtues of the wise spring. The Flower Array Scripture states: O child of the universal family, all your virtuous qualities issue from your spiritual guide. You can encounter and receive instructions from one only if you have cultivated merit and wisdom for oceans of eons. Otherwise, to meet a spiritual guide may prove more difficult than coming upon the most rare of gems. Therefore, never tire of honoring your spiritual guide. Given that a student wishes to attain the state of an omniscient buddha, the basic premise is that it is necessary for him or her to work with a spiritual guide. The reason is that the individual does not know how to cultivate merit and wisdom or to clear away obscurations. Examples consistent with this proof are the enlightened ones of the three times. The converse can be illustrated by solitary sages and other examples."

The above is under the heading of "The Necessity of Working with a Spiritual Guide". However, this is not the exclusive necessity as it is for Vajrayana, plus the reasoning contradicts the second quote.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 30th, 2017 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Bristollad said:
I still don't understand the distinction you are trying to draw.

Astus wrote:
A common instruction is to renounce worldly life, and even to leave communal life and stay in an isolated place. It does not mean that everyone has to become a hermit, or that everyone has to leave their home, even when those conditions are considered beneficial on the path. For instance, here are some strong words from Dogen:

"None has succeeded to the right action of the Buddha-Dharma, and none has received the authentic transmission of the great truth of the Buddha-Dharma, without leaving family life. Notwithstanding scant pursuit of the truth by laypeople as upāsakas and upāsikās, there is no past example of one arriving at the truth. When we arrive at the truth, we inevitably leave family life. How can people who are not able to leave family life succeed to the position of a buddha? Nevertheless, for the last two or three hundred years in the great kingdom of Song, people calling themselves priests of the Zen sect have habitually said, “Pursuit of the truth by a layman and pursuit of the truth by one who has left family life are just the same.” They are a tribe of people who have become dogs, for the sole purpose of making the filth and urine of laypeople into their food and drink. Sometimes they say to kings and their ministers, “The mind in conducting the myriad affairs of state is just the mind of patriarchs and buddhas, other than which there is no mind at all.” Kings and ministers, never having discerned right preaching and right Dharma, delightedly bestow on them gifts such as the titles of master. The monks who speak such words are Devadattas. In order that they might feed upon tears and spit, they produce childish and demented talk like this. They are deplorable. They are not the kindred of the Seven Buddhas. They are demons and animals."
(Sanjuichi-bon-bodai-bunpo, in SBGZ, BDK ed, vol 4, p 14)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 30th, 2017 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Bristollad said:
They just seem like instructions and reasons for the instructions, not instructions and recommendations

Astus wrote:
There can be various reasons for an instruction. To establish the necessity of something, other options have to be excluded.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 30th, 2017 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: keep up (meditative) awareness in anethaesia
Content:
Dolma said:
keep up (stay in) (meditative) awareness when getting an anethaesia (narcosis) during an operation.

Astus wrote:
If it is something to be maintained, it is conditioned. If it is conditioned, it is impermanent and empty. One might maintain whatever state of mind one imagines, but the next moment it is gone anyway, and then who can say whether it was real at all?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 29th, 2017 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
The Nirvana Sūtra states:
Son of a good family, all sentient beings are just the same — without serving a virtuous mentor, they will not perceive the nature of the Buddha.
And:
Those who do not know how to serve the virtuous mentor will not know the very secret tathāgatgarbha.
And:
One who does not rely on a virtuous mentor is a person who has not entered into the teaching of the Bhagavan Buddha, called "one with perverted craving." Such a person cannot be cured by the Bhagavan Buddha.

Astus wrote:
Yes, that's more along the line of what I thought of as a requirement, a necessity.

"By not being able to get close to a good spiritual advisor, despite the fact [that each of them] has the buddha-nature, they cannot see it.
...
Like the athlete in the story who bemoaned the loss of his jewel when it was in fact inside his body, living beings are in a similar situation. Because they do not know how to approach a good spiritual advisor, they remain unaware of the hidden treasury that is the tathāgatagarbha, and they study and practice the doctrine of nonself. This is analogous to the mundane person who asserts the existence of self but does not understand the true nature of self. My disciples may also be like this. Because they do not know how to approach a good spiritual advisor, they study and put into practice the doctrine of nonself but they, too, do not understand the point of [the doctrine of] nonself. And if they do not understand the true nature of nonself, then how could they understand the true nature of self?"
(Nirvana Sutra, BDK ed, vol 1, p 231)

Apparently the Pratyutpannasamadhi Sutra has significantly more to say about teachers than the Surangamasamadhi or even the Nirvana Sutra.

"If this bodhisattva regards his teacher as he would regard the Buddha, he will master the meditation quickly. If he does not honor his good teacher, if he is disrespectful to his good teacher and imposes upon him, then even if he studies this meditation for a long time, keeps it for a long time, and practices it for a long time, if he does not honor his good teacher he will quickly lose it. ...
This bodhisattva should regard as a buddha whatever monk, nun, layman, or laywoman from whom he hears this meditation, and he should venerate the place where he hears the meditation."
(BDK ed, p 46; also on p 29)

The sutra also has advice for lay men and women (p 50-52), stating that "he should always have great love for his good teacher" and a "laywoman should always honor her good teachers", but there are also other things they should do. A layman: "he should not drink wine or give it to other people to drink; he should not have intercourse with women—neither should he himself do so, nor should he advise other people to do so; he should not have any affection for his wife and children; he should not long for sons and daughters; he should not long for property; he should always think longingly of abandoning [household life] and undertaking the life of an ascetic; he should always maintain the eightfold fast and for the duration of the fast he should always keep the fast at a Buddhist monastery;" And a laywoman: "she should not take any notice of lucky days; she should not be flirtatious; she should not be unrestrained; and she should not have desires."

Further clarifications on the requirement to have a teacher and the service provided to them:

"they should first honor and serve their good teachers and regard them as buddhas, and only then should they recite this meditation."
(p 85)

"Bhadrapāla, any bodhisattvas who, hearing of this meditation, wish to go to that place and hear and strive for this meditation, should serve their teachers for ten years or one hundred years; they should make them offerings and venerate them totally. These bodhisattvas should not be self serving but should follow their teachers’ teaching. They should always be grateful to their teachers."
(p 97)

"Setting aside these offerings, which are simply not worth mentioning, you should always cut off your own flesh and offer it to the good teacher; you should never begrudge him your person, much less anything else. You should serve the good teacher just as a slave serves his master. Those who seek this meditation should know this. Having mastered this meditation they should hold fast to it and always be grateful to their teachers."
(p 101-102)

Malcolm said:
As I said, it is an imperative, not an option.

conebeckham said:
Im-per-a-tive.
Adjective 1.Of vital importance; crucial.  2. Giving an authoritative command; imperative.
Noun An essential or Urgent thing.
Sounds necessary to me.

Astus wrote:
The difference I mean is like between "do not be lustful" and "no lustful mind can attain absorption", or in this case: "one should have a teacher" and "cannot be done without a teacher".


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 29th, 2017 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
Yes, so what? You are still citing passages about what kind of associates one should have. Thus, they are entirely besides the point.

Astus wrote:
They are about the good friend one should have, or as you translated, the virtuous mentor, what is often simplified to the word teacher. Furthermore, the point that is still left unaddressed is that a recommendation is not a requirement.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 29th, 2017 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
This is talking about associates, not teachers. It is therefore irrelevant.

Astus wrote:
The word translated as companion (sahāya) is a synonym for friend (mitta), as it's shown clearly in the same poem a few stanzas later where the "evil companion" (pāpaṃ sahāyaṃ) is opposed to the "eminent friend" (mittaṃ uḷāraṃ). There are also the Sigalovada Sutta (DN i.186) and the Meghiya Sutta (AN 9.3 / iv.357) where the two words are exchangeable.

"One should avoid an evil companion,
who shows what is harmful, one settled in 
unrighteousness.
One should not freely associate
with one who is intent and heedless;
one should live alone like a rhinoceros horn.

One should resort to the learned, a bearer of Dhamma,
an eminent friend gifted with ingenuity.
Having known the benefits and removed doubt,
one should live alone like a rhinoceros horn."
(Snp 1.3, tr Bhikkhu Bodhi, p 164-165)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 29th, 2017 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
The quotes I provided are imperatives.

Astus wrote:
Imperatives are what one should do, it is the recommended way. A necessity, a need, is somewhat stronger and more restrictive.

"If one should find a judicious companion,
a fellow wanderer, of good behavior, resolute,
having overcome all obstacles, one should
live with him, satisfied and mindful.

But if one does not find a judicious companion,
a fellow wanderer, of good behavior, resolute,
like a king who has abandoned a conquered realm,
one should live alone like a rhinoceros horn.

Surely, we praised the excellence of companionship:
one should resort to companions one's equal or better.
Not obtaining these, as one who eats blamelessly
one should live alone like a rhinoceros horn."
(Snp 1.3, tr Bhikkhu Bodhi, p 163)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Admin_PC said:
At the same time, one of the listed synonyms is 無功用智.
...
So I imagine the full nuance is somewhere between cause-less & gained directly through one's own struggle. Wisdom that manifests naturally through the ripening of original vows & practices - with no direct, intentional exertion.

Astus wrote:
The definition in RGV (tr Takasaki, p 157) is: " It is free from efforts [anābhoga / 自然] because all dualistic views [prapañca / 戲論] and false discriminations [vikalpa / 虛妄分別] have ceased to exist [upaśānta / 寂靜]." And it is also used in the context of buddha activity: "Thus, as being Tathāgata, though it is immutable and of the characteristic of non-activity, the whole action of the Perfectly Enlightened One proceeds without any effort, ceaselessly and uninterruptedly as far as the world exists."

So, the sense of manifesting naturally because of past efforts applies to the second part, however, even there the absence of discrimination is a key factor.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 7:35 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
Necessary, not just beneficial.

Astus wrote:
The quotes you provided talked of the benefits and recommended having a good friend. Do you perhaps have some sources stating it as a necessity?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 7:26 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Admin_PC said:
I'm not exactly sure what Yongmi's on about, but I seriously don't see how "self-made wisdom" even fits here. That would mean it was something fabricated.

Astus wrote:
The problem Zongmi highlights is the assumption that there is such a thing as causeless becoming. The Ratnagotravibhaga explains this buddha quality  in this way:

"Being realized by oneself. 
It is cognizable without any help of others;"
(RGV 1.7ab, tr Takasaki, p 156)

And the commentary (p 157):

"Thus, not having heard the Buddhahood, which is a quite marvellous and unthinkable sphere, from somebody else, but having perfectly cognized its unutterable nature ‘by one self’, i.e. by means of self-born knowledge which needs no teacher"

Jamgon Kongtrul's commentary (Buddha Nature, p 104):

"Since it must be realized by means of self-sprung primordial wisdom being self-aware, it is not a realization due to outer conditions such as other people’s utterances and so on."

So the reason I translated it as "self-made" (cf. "self-generated" in Lotus Sutra, ch 3, BDK ed, p 61) is because it refers to a buddha attaining it on his own, not because it just appears for no reason at all, since if that were the case, buddhahood would be a random event.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 6:47 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
However, the Buddha taught it was necessary to rely on a teacher.

Astus wrote:
Necessary/needed and beneficial/recommended are not the same.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
It is inapplicable because while the Buddha demonstrated the play of attaining buddhahood, in fact he did not attain buddhahood in that lifetime.

Astus wrote:
And the demonstration had a purpose, didn't it?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
The question is inapplicable to nirmanakāyas.

Astus wrote:
How so? The whole life of a nirmanakaya is for the education of beings. So it is not some accident that Siddhartha had no teacher, that one of the primary characteristics of a buddha is that it is he who turns the wheel of Dharma in a time when there is no Dharma.

“The Tathagata, bhikkhus, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, is the originator of the path unarisen before, the producer of the path unproduced before, the declarer of the path undeclared before. He is the knower of the path, the discoverer of the path, the one skilled in the path. And his disciples now dwell following that path and become possessed of it afterwards.
“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, and a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom.”
(SN 22.58, tr Bhikkhu Bodhi, p 901)

"the Buddha is omniscient, independent, without a teacher; he preaches the Dharma without having heard it from another."
...
"The Buddha, who is omniscient (sarvajñā), independent and without a teacher, cannot say: "Thus have I heard." If the Buddha said: "Thus have I heard", the objection could be made that the Buddha did not know the thing [before having heard it]."
(Nagarjuna: MPPS, vol 1, ch 3, tr Lamotte-Chodron, p 82, 87)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
All kinds of buddhas.

Astus wrote:
I specifically asked Siddhartha, as within the context of that life.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 4:54 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Astus wrote:
also called self-made wisdom (自然智).

Admin_PC said:
Interesting, because that's not the only way to use that term. 自然 (Cn = "ziran", Jp = "jinen") is used (esp by Shinran) for "naturalness" or "spontaneous" - not anything "self-made". It's defined https://books.google.com/books?id=hQ6lGvyMZMMC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=%E8%87%AA%E7%84%B6+one%27s+own+nature&source=bl&ots=TXWlR-Kx0Z&sig=HqhZBR_DF2zfJv-jHnFJbsWfOGY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir36igsN_XAhWL6YMKHUuVARkQ6AEIOjAE#v=onepage&q=%E8%87%AA%E7%84%B6%20one%27s%20own%20nature&f=false: ziran is doing what comes naturally, out of one's own nature.
So in that sense, it could either be thought of in the sense of "spontaneous wisdom" or "wisdom of one's own nature".

Astus wrote:
Ziran 自然 as spontaneity or naturalness is a non-Buddhist/Daoist interpretation. In Buddhism it is a translation for svayambhū and 自然智 is svayambhū-jñāna. The two terms (無師智, 自然智) are combined in the http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T12n0374_018#0468a12 as 無師自悟 - teacherless self-enlightenment.

Zongmi criticised spontaneity (自然) in his Inquiry into the Origin of Humanity (tr Peter N. Gregory; http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T45n1886_001#0708b09 ):

"Again, their claim that the myriad things are all spontaneously engendered and transformed and that it is not a matter of causes and conditions means that everything should be engendered and transformed [even] where there are no causes and conditions. That is to say, stones might engender grass, grass might engenderhumans, humans engender beasts, and so forth. Further, since they might engender without regard to temporal sequence and arise without regard to due season, the immortal would not depend on an elixir, the great peace would not depend on the sage and the virtuous, and benevolence and righteousness would not depend on learning and practice. For what use, then, did Lao- tzu, Chuang‐ tzu, the Duke of Chou, and Confucius establish their teachings as invariable norms?"


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Losal Samten said:
Without empowerment in Akanishta Gandavyuha from the buddhas, a bodhisattva can never pass beyond the 10th bhumi.

Astus wrote:
Bodhisattvas learn from countless buddhas. But who was the teacher of Siddhartha Gautama?

”Which teacher did you apply to for teaching?”
[The Tathāgata] answered, “I have no teacher nor any teaching. I am unsurpassed. I have my own insight into the very profound Law. I have obtained what others could not obtain.”
(Buddhacarita 15.5-6, BDK ed, p 107)

“Venerable Gautama, with whom did you practice religion?”
Monks, the Thus-gone One replied to the Ājīvika with this verse:
“I do not have any teacher;
There is no one like me.
I alone am the perfect Buddha,
Cool and without any flaws.”
( http://read.84000.co/#UT22084-046-001/chapter%2026 26.10-11)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 28th, 2017 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
conebeckham said:
Find me a Buddha who reached nirvana without a teacher.

Astus wrote:
Being a buddha - aside from Vajrayana perhaps - means awakening on one's own, without a teacher, hence one of the names of buddhahood is wisdom without a teacher (無師智), also called self-made wisdom (自然智).

Shakyamuni told this to Upaka, the first person to meet after his enlightenment: "All-abandoning, released in the ending of craving: having fully known on my own, to whom should I point as my teacher? I have no teacher, and one like me can't be found." ( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html ). And there is also this contemplation of the Buddha in another sutta: "in this world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, in this generation with its brahmans and contemplatives, its royalty and common-folk, I do not see another brahman or contemplative more consummate in virtue than I, on whom I could dwell in dependence, honoring and respecting him" ( https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn06/sn06.002.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 27th, 2017 at 7:26 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
I already explained this to you.

Astus wrote:
Could you point to the post in this thread about it? I could not find it.

Malcolm said:
Reading is part of reflecting on the Dharma, the second wisdom. All those texts you mention, however, are meant to be heard first.

Astus wrote:
That looks like a concept that exists only in the Tibetan tradition. So, for instance, if anyone wanted to study the Golden Light Sutra, they could go to https://fpmt.org/education/teachings/sutras/golden-light-sutra/ and then they "must listen to the entire sutra in order to receive the full transmission from Lama Zopa Rinpoche." Then, once hours of Tibetan chanting has been heard, they can go and read the text in English.
Is there any reason for this system?
Does it also work in Chinese? Just because one can listen to not only two hours of the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOFljdLI-M0, but also 8 hours of the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7iF_lU1gJI, 9.5 hours of the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erYePBILVP4, and 50+ hours of the 80 fascicle https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpJd3xvoJYHdZ3T1oJuwBVuexAr7u7TcB.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 27th, 2017 at 6:44 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
As I said, you cannot learn the Dharma from books. You need a teacher.

Astus wrote:
If it is as you say, what is the role of all the scriptures, treatises, etc.?

Here's what Ven. Shengyan said:

"First, by reading the scriptures we can realize mind, or “illuminate the mind.” When we engage in sutra recitation, we make use of the sutra as a mirror to reflect back the reciting mind. This mind, prior to practice, is full of darkness and ignorance. We take the sutra as a mirror by which we can model our behavior, until our minds fuse with the sutra, and we directly realize the nature of our minds.

Second, sutra recitation helps us to understand the meaning behind the sutras. Many recitations help clarify the meaning. When I was a novice, I asked my master the meaning behind the scriptures, and all he said was, “Just keep reading, and you’ll understand.” Now I realize that complete familiarity with the sutras will naturally elicit the meaning behind them.
I tell this to my disciples in Taiwan, but my monks and nuns refuse to understand. They ask, “Why don’t you explain the sutra first? Then it will be easier to read and memorize.”

Third, sutra recitation can be samadhi or one-pointed concentration practice. I teach my disciples to use their ears to listen while they follow the chanting and not think about the meaning. Use the mind to be fully aware of hearing as well as of one’s own recitation."
( http://chancenter.org/cmc/1996/05/26/reading-sutras-as-a-spiritual-practice/ )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 27th, 2017 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
As for the rest of his statement, he is merely being kind. But it is not to be taken very seriously.

Astus wrote:
He discusses the "dictates of the Sugatas" at an earlier section, in the context of the four types of guru as a prerequisite for mahamudra.

"In short, the basic instructions of meditation cannot be gained simply through reading books, or [by figuring it out by oneself, or from unqualified teachers without authentic lineage.]
However, while relying upon the root guru, the personal guru who holds the lineage, one comes also to rely upon the second guru, which is the dictates of the Sugatas, or the teachings of the Buddha [and other realized beings]. While one bases one’s practice upon the oral instructions of one’s root guru, one augments this by studying the teachings of the Buddha, the commentaries on his teachings by the great mahasiddhas, and the texts of instruction of the lineage of practice and accomplishment. Through augmenting the oral instructions of one’s guru in this way, one clarifies and reinforces them by relying upon the written teachings of other Buddhas and bodhisattvas. It is therefore important to actively pursue the study of dharma texts."
(p 25-26)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 27th, 2017 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
The main point however is that one cannot receive the Dharma by reading books. One must hear the Dharma from living teachers.

Astus wrote:
"Of course if you have someone to teach the texts to you, that is best. But even if you do not, you should read them and rely upon them as the guru of the dictates of the sugatas. By studying these texts you will actually learn things that will help your experience of meditation, chiefly by comparing what you have experienced to what is described in the text.
...
If you read these texts with the motivation that you are doing so in order to help your practical experience of meditation, then you will discover a great deal in them that will be helpful in just that way. You will come across something that will reveal a point that you have been unable to understand or unable to apply, and you will all of a sudden be certain saying, “Ah, this is how it is!” That is actually receiving the pointing out from the guru who is the dictates of the Sugatas.
Great masters of the past said that dharma texts are “the teacher who never gets mad at you,” [laughter] because your relationship with the book is entirely up to you. For example, if you do not understand something and you read it again and again and again, unlike a teacher who might get upset at being asked the same question a hundred times, the book will never get angry at you for reading the same passage again for a hundred times. If while studying the texts you all of a sudden run out of time and have to put the book away abruptly and quickly, the book will never get angry at you for closing it. In that way, this guru who is the dictates of the Sugatas is very convenient to study with and very beneficial to your experience and realization."
(Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche: Pointing Out the Dharmakaya, p 157, 158)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 27th, 2017 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
conebeckham said:
you cannot take refuge or any sort of personal liberation vows from a book, not to mention bodhisattva vows, in any extant lineage, from a book either

Astus wrote:
"As far as receiving the lay precepts is concerned, you can visit this temple if you have the means and the capacity to do so. Otherwise, why get so fixated on travel? All you need is to have an earnest, sincere mind, repent your transgressions before your home altar for seven consecutive days and express the wish to receive the precepts by yourself. ...
The most important thing is to do so in an utterly sincere frame of mind – in which case, the benefits and virtues of receiving the precepts are the same whether you do so by yourself or through a monk or nun.
You should not think that receiving the precepts in such a manner is not in accord with the Dharma. You should know that the method described above follows the wise teaching of Sakyamuni Buddha in the Brahma Net Sutra."
(Pure-Land Zen, Zen Pure-Land: Letters from Patriarch Yin Kuang, p 43-44)

Brahma's Net Sutra:
"If, my disciples, after my passing, you want with a sincere mind to receive the bodhisattva precepts, you should take the vows on your own in front of a buddha or bodhisattva."
Taehyeon's Commentary:
"Carrying out the reception of precepts on one’s own is done as is explained in roll 41 of the Bodhisattvabhūmi-śāstra. As for “[No teacher] within a thousand li”: If you receive the precepts on your own like this, won’t your merit will be weak? No. Because even if there is a lack of present conditions, your mind is intense. As it says in roll 53 of the Yogâcārabhūmiśāstra: “Whether receiving the precepts on your own or receiving them from someone else, if your sincerity in maintaining them is equal, there is no difference in merit.”"
(Exposition of the Sutra of Brahma's Net, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 11, p 360, 362)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 26th, 2017 at 7:07 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Isn’t instruction by the guru fundamental in Vajrayana? The guru embodies the dharma, and unless the student has a relationship with the guru, then their own obstructions will always undo whatever effort they try to make.

Astus wrote:
Empowerment is fundamental. After that it is for the individual to put in the necessary effort.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 26th, 2017 at 6:38 PM
Title: Re: Syncretism between different schools/sects of Buddhism
Content:
Dharmasherab said:
As a prospect for the future, the same principles behind the formation of Buddhist syncretic movements like Fo Guang Shan and Rime movement could be used on a larger scale to help mutual understanding and corporation between Mahayana and Theravada.

Astus wrote:
I think FGS and Rime are fairly different. FGS is an actual organisation, while Rime is more a philosophy. The philosophy upheld in FGS is the Humanistic Buddhism of Yinshun, and that itself is not particularly syncretic. There is a still existing misunderstanding about Chinese Buddhism that there were/are distinct schools like in Japan, while it's actually more like various fields of study that people can pursue within the framework of a shared monastic institution.

Among the challenges in establishing Buddhism in a new place, one of the bigger ones is consolidating the monastic system within a society. However, renouncing the worldly life doesn't look like a major concern on this forum for instance.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 26th, 2017 at 7:45 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
Your citations do not support your point.

Astus wrote:
Hearing is mentioned, yes, next to reading, although the premise in the text is that all sutras were verbally given by Shakyamuni, so even referring to any textual format is contradictory. At the same time, all the sutras exist as scriptures, in written form, and not as memorised speeches, hence the very fact of being able to quote them here supports my point.

Also, hearing doesn't necessarily mean hearing from another. Here is how Asanga/Maitreya describes studying the scriptures:

"The teaching as objective is discovered by the three wisdoms, (born of) learning, (reflection, and meditation, respectively,) when one with faith focuses on its stated meaning (learned) through mental verbalization, when one recognizes the fact that its objective appearance is because of mental verbalization, and when one fixes the mind itself (exclusively) upon the nominal (life systems). And this discovery of the threefold objective is based upon the previously mentioned (three baskets of the teaching)."
(Mahayanasutralamkara 11.6-7, p 116-117; ed Thurman)

Mental verbalisation makes it inner hearing, and that is learning. But look at the words of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongming_Yanshou, from the first fascicle of his major work, the Zongjing Lu:

"I now cite the words of the original teacher [Śākyamuni] to train and instruct disciples, encouraging their practice by having them follow his statements; to know the implicit truth [zong] through reading the Dharma, and not rush around searching for it elsewhere; to personally realize the Buddha’s intention."
(Albert Welter: Yongming Yanshou’s Conception of Chan in the Zongjing Lu, p 249)

"beginners commencing their studies, at a point prior to initiating self-reflection themselves, deny the correct implicit truth [zhengzong] of the sage’s teaching [i.e., the scriptures], what practices will they rely on for their progress? Even if they do not conceive erroneous views themselves, they will still encounter heterodox teachers wherever they go. As a result, I look to the original truth [i.e., the scriptures], because what [other] teachers convey is erroneous."
(p 257)

"if one wants to investigate the Buddha-vehicle, one will read extensively from the treasure storehouse [i.e., Buddhist scriptures]. Each and every [scripture] forces one to understand the truth about one’s own self; utterance after utterance causes one to mysteriously unite with true mind. One simply should not grasp onto written texts as the highest meaning, forming [artificial] views according to the words. One should directly seek out the message written down in the corpus of Buddhist scriptures, tacitly uniting with the truth that is inherently implicit [benzong]. At that point, the wisdom that does not depend on any teacher reveals itself, and the way of heavenly truth is no longer obscure.
...
On account of this, realize that the teaching has the power to assist one on the Way [to awakening]. Those beginning their study of Buddhism should never forget this, even for an instant. I know very clearly that the benefits of Buddhist teaching are immeasurable. That is why I sought out [the sources of Buddhist teaching] and collected them here."
(p258)

Yongming's words agree with what Asanga wrote:

"If one has not yet awakened to suchness in wisdom in regard to conscious construction-only, then how can he infer this understanding? He can do so by reflecting upon the scriptures and by true reasoning."
(Great Vehicle Summary, ch 2, BDK ed, p 39)

Malcolm said:
Without hearing the Dharma from a qualified teacher, one will not understand what one is reading.

Astus wrote:
Unless you mean someone explaining the contents, what difference is there between listening to somebody reading the words aloud, and just reading them for oneself?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 26th, 2017 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
No they don't.

Astus wrote:
"Those who grasp at emptiness slander the Sutras by maintaining that written words have no use. Since they maintain they have no need of written words, they should not speak either, because written words are merely the marks of spoken language. They also maintain that the direct way cannot be established by written words, and yet these two words, ‘not established’ are themselves written."
( http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/PlatformSutra_DharmaJewel.pdf, ch 10,, p 383-384, tr BTTS)

"Wherever this sutra is taught, read, recited, copied, or wherever it is to be found, one should build a seven-jeweled stupa of great height and width and richly ornamented. There is no need to put a relic inside. Why is this? Because the Tathāgata is already in it."
...
"The bodhisattvas are exactly like this. If they have not yet heard, understood, or been able to practice this Lotus Sutra, they should be known as people who are still far away from highest, complete enlightenment. If they hear, understand, contemplate, and are able to practice it, they realize that they are certainly nearing highest, complete enlightenment. Why is this? Because the highest, complete enlightenment of all the bodhisattvas is within this sutra. This sutra opens the gate of skillful means and reveals the marks of the truth."
(Lotus Sutra, ch 10, BDK ed, p 161, 162)

Mañjuśrī said: “In the ocean I always expounded only the Lotus Sutra.”
Then Prajñākūṭa questioned Mañjuśrī, saying: “This sutra is profound and subtle. It is a jewel among sutras and rare in the world. If sentient beings diligently strive to practice this sutra, will they immediately become buddhas or not?”
Mañjuśrī answered: “Yes, they will.”
(ch 12, p 183)

"if there are sentient beings who hear this sutra and who devoutly understand, accept and maintain, and read and recite it, they will definitely attain this Dharma, and will not doubt it. How much more so if they cultivate according to its explanation!"
...
"This sutra extensively explains the inconceivable anuttarā samyaksaṃbodhi of the buddhas of the past, present, and future. Therefore, heavenly emperor, if good men and women accept and maintain, read and recite, and make offerings to this sutra, that is tantamount to making offerings to the buddhas of the past, present, and future."
(Vimalakirti Sutra, ch 13, BDK ed, p 171-172)

"Sutras of this type should, during the final period after my nirvana, be circulated extensively throughout Jambudvīpa by you and others with your numinous power, so [the Dharma] is not cut off."
...
“If in the future there are good men and women who seek the Mahayana, I will make certain that they get hold of such sutras. Using their power of mindfulness, I will cause them to receive and maintain, read and recite, and extensively explain them for others.
“World-honored One, if in the latter age there are those able to receive, maintain, read, recite, and explain them for others, one should understand that these will all be established by Maitreya’s numinous power.”
(ch 14, p 177, 178)

"Those who study this scripture will gain an opening into the true dharma, becoming excellent physicians themselves. You should understand, however, that those who never study it will be blind, lacking eyes of wisdom, their sight clouded by ignorance."
(Nirvana Sutra, ch 3, BDK ed, p 105)

"To his disciples the Tathagata teaches in succession the ninefold canon of scriptures so that they may become thoroughly familiar with that dharma. It is only after this that he teaches the hidden treasury that is the tathiigatagarbha. expounding the Tathagata' s permanence for his disciples. The Tathagata expounds the Mahayana scripture, the Great Nirvana Sutra in this way for those who have already made their resolution for awakening as well as for those who have not, thereby creating a karmic cause for bodhi in both, with exception of the icchantikas. Thus, good man, this Mahayana scripture, the Great Nirvana Sutra. is immeasurably, innumerably, and inconceivably rare. You should understand it to be the most skilled of all skilled physicians, foremost and superior, the king among sutras."
(p 294)

"If one hears this sutra or retains even one four-line verse of it, that person will then access the stage of the Buddha’s knowledge; one will be able to proselyte sentient beings with appropriate expedients and become the great spiritual mentor (kalyanamitra) of all living things."
(Vajrasamadhi Sutra, ch 1, p 58, tr Buswell)

"If there is a sentient being who keeps this sutra, then in all other sutras he will have nothing more to seek. The dharma of this scripture encodes all dharmas and includes the essentials of all sutras. It is the unifying thread of the dharmas of all these sutras."
(p 302)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, November 25th, 2017 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Vipasyana Meditation
Content:
Anonymous X said:
And, why does no one here refer to the Mahasatipattana Sutta for instruction in Vipassana practice?

Astus wrote:
Because it's not a Mahayana scripture.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, November 25th, 2017 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Wall Gazing
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Vipassana, via wise reflection, seems to be much more than this. Not only are thoughts empty, not self, all experience is seen to be dependently originated, unstable, and unsatisfying. This manifests the 4 Noble Truths in its entirety, I think.

Astus wrote:
Dharmas are merely thought products. Hence seeing the emptiness of thoughts is seeing the emptiness of everything.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, November 25th, 2017 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Malcolm said:
One cannot get Dharma from black marks on white paper.

Astus wrote:
I think a good number of sutras disagree with that.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, November 25th, 2017 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Yes, you need a teacher.
Content:
Astus wrote:
You need a teacher for what? If it is information, they are all found in books. If realisation, how can anyone make you realise anything?

As far as the Nikayas go, it is not a teacher (acariya) one needs, but good friendship (kalyanamittata).

"And what is good friendship? Here, in whatever village or town a clansman lives, he associates with householders or their sons—whether young but of mature virtue, or old and of mature virtue—who are accomplished in faith, virtuous behavior, generosity, and wisdom; he converses with them and engages in discussions with them. Insofar as they are accomplished in faith, he emulates them with respect to their accomplishment in faith; insofar as they are accomplished in virtuous behavior, he emulates them with respect to their accomplishment in virtuous behavior; insofar as they are accomplished in generosity, he emulates them with respect to their accomplishment in generosity; insofar as they are accomplished in wisdom, he emulates them with respect to their accomplishment in wisdom. This is called good friendship."
(AN 8.54, tr Bhikkhu Bodhi, https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.054.nara.html#friendship; see also: https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_26.html )

As for the Mahayana:

"Bodhisattvas on the beginning level, intent on practising prajna
To seek unsurpassed bodhi, get close to good and wise friends.
How to obtain great wisdom and merit? Should be from prajnaparamita.
That is how all buddhadharma and merit are attained from good friends."
(Ratnagunasamcayagatha 15.1-2, tr from http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2012/T0229_,08,0680a28.html )

"The mind not being intimidated and such,
Those who teach the lack of nature and so on,
And abandoning the antagonistic factors of these
Means being mentored in every way."
(Abhisamayalamkara 1.36, tr Brunnhölzl)

Both the Astasahasrika (PP8K) and the AA commentaries explain that the good friend is the one who teaches prajnaparamita, in particular that all appearances are empty, while the bad friends are those who teach hinayana. See: PP8K 1.2, 15.1, 22.1, 30.1; and Gone Beyond, vol 1, p 282-283;  Groundless Paths, p 123-124, 422.

The Diamond Sutra gives the following summary of who teaches what:

"The dharmas spoken by the Tathagata cannot be grasped and cannot be spoken. They are neither dharmas nor no dharmas. And why? Unconditioned dharmas distinguish worthy sages."
and
"all Buddhas and all Buddhas’ Dharma of Anuttarasamyaksambodhi come forth from this Sutra. Subhuti, the Buddhadharmas spoken are no Buddhadharmas."
(ch 7 and 8, in www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/prajparagen2.pdf, p 102, 106)

Huineng explains that like this:

"Good friends, if you wish to enter into the profound dharmadhatu and the samadhi of prajna, you must cultivate the practice of prajna and recite the Diamond Sutra. Thus will you attain seeing the nature. You should realize that the merits of this sutra are immeasurable and unlimited. They are clearly praised within the sutra; I cannot explain them fully here. This teaching is the Supreme Vehicle: it is preached for those of great wisdom, it is preached for those of superior capacities. Those of small capacities and small wisdom who hear it will generate doubt."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 31)

He also says,

"You should each contemplate your minds and each see the fundamental nature. If you do not become enlightened by yourself, then you must seek a great spiritual compatriot, someone who understands the Dharma of the Supreme Vehicle, to indicate directly the correct path for you. This spiritual compatriot will have a great background and will, so to speak, lead you to the attainment of seeing the nature. This is because the spiritual compatriot is able to manifest the causes of all the good dharmas. All the buddhas of the three periods of time and the twelve divisions of the canon are fundamentally and naturally immanent within the natures of people, but if you cannot become enlightened yourself, you must seek a spiritual compatriot’s instructions in order to see [the nature].
If you can become enlightened yourself, don’t rely on external seeking — don’t think I’m saying you can only attain emancipation through [the help of] a spiritual compatriot other than yourself. This is not the case! Why? Within your own minds there is a spiritual compatriot [who will help you] become enlightened by yourself! If you activate the false and deluded, you will become all mixed up with false thoughts. Although some external spiritual compatriots may be teachers, they cannot save you. If you activate the correct and true and contemplate with prajna, in a single instant [all your] false thoughts will be completely eradicated. If you recognize the self-nature, with a single [experience of] enlightenment you will attain the stage of buddhahood."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 33)

There are people who believe that a teacher is needed to point to the nature of mind and transmit the Dharma. However, the nature of mind cannot be shown, nor is there a Dharma that could be transmitted.

"In my view there is no Buddha, no sentient beings, no past, no present. Anything attained was already attained—no time is needed. There is nothing to practice, nothing to realize, nothing to gain, nothing to lose. Throughout all time there is no other dharma than this. ‘If one claims there’s a dharma surpassing this, I say that it’s like a dream, like a phantasm.’ This is all I have to teach."
(Record of Linji, p 12-13, tr Sasaki)

What do teachers give then?

Yaoshan hadn't been to the lecture hall for a long time. 
The temple supervisor said, "We've all been looking forward to your giving us a lecture." 
Yasohan said, "Ring the bell." 
As soon as the monks had gathered for the lecture, Yaoshan got up from his seat and went back to the abbot's quarters. The supervisor followed and asked why he didn't say anything, since he had agreed to speak to the monks. 
Yaoshan said, "They have teachers to teach them sutras and they have teachers to teach Abidhamma, so what is there left for me to do?"
(Record of Yaoshan, in Soto Zen Ancestors in China, p 63)

So Yunmen made it clear:

Having entered the Dharma Hall for a formal instruction, the Master said:
“All of you who come and go for no reason: What are you looking for in [this monastery] here? I only know h ow to eat and drink and shit. What else would I be good for?
“You’re making pilgrimages all over the place, studying Chan and asking about the Dao. Let me ask you: What have you managed to learn in all those places? Try presenting that!”
Again, he said: “In the meantime, you cheat the Master in your own house. Is that all right? When you manage to find a little slime on my ass, you lick it off, take it to be your own self, and say: ‘I understand Chan, I understand the Dao!’ Even if you manage to read the whole Buddhist canon— so what?!”
(Record of Yunmen, p 154, tr App)

And Huanglong explained further:

Huanglong addressed the monks, saying, “Before I came up here to speak there was nothing in my mind. But now that I’ve come up here there are a lot of questions. I dare to ask you whether the great vehicle of our school is found in such questions and answers. If it were to be found in such speech, then doesn’t the scriptural canon have questions and answers? Yet it is said that [the way of Zen] is transmitted outside of the scriptural teachings. It is transmitted to individuals who are great Dharma vessels. If it can’t be found in words, then even if you ask all sorts of excellent questions, what, after all, is the point of doing so? ... If you want to talk about it, then you can say that it can’t be realized through mystical perception or self-perfection. Nor may it be said to be a result of some all-encompassing understanding. The buddhas of the three worlds have only said you must know yourself. In the entire canon of scripture this can’t be explained. ... Those who leave home must have heroic resolve, cut off the two heads, and practice in seclusion in the house of the self. Afterward they must throw open the door, get rid of the possessions of that self, and then receive and meet whatever comes, giving aid to any in need. In this way the deep compassion of Buddha can be in some small measure repaid. Aside from acting in this manner, there is nothing else.”
Huanglong then struck the meditation platform with his whisk and left the hall.
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 403-404)

The story of Dongshan is a good example:

Once, when Yün-yen was making some straw sandals,  Tung-shan approached him and said, "I would like to have the Master's eyes."
Yün-yen said, "Where have yours gone?"
"Liang-chieh has never had them," replied Tung-shan.
Yün-yen said, "Supposing you did have them, where would you put them?"
Tung-shan said nothing. Yün-yen said, "Isn't it the eye that desires eyes?"
"It is not my eye," replied Tung-shan.
"Get out!" thundered Yün-yen.
(Record of Dongshan, p 26-27, tr Powell)

And later when asked about Yunyan:

Because the Master was conducting a memorial feast for Yün-yen, a monk asked, "What teaching did you receive while you were at Yün-yen's place?"
The Master said, "Although I was there, I didn't receive any teaching."
"Since you didn't actually receive any teaching, why are you conducting this memorial?" asked the monk.
"Why should I turn my back on him?" replied the Master.
"If you began by meeting Nan-ch'üan, why do you now conduct a memorial feast for Yün-yen?" asked the monk.
"It is not my former master's virtue or Buddha Dharma that I esteem, only that he did not make exhaustive explanations for me," replied the Master.
(p 28)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 24th, 2017 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Vipasyana Meditation
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
Śāriputra asked, “The inconceivable samādhi cannot be attained?”
    Mañjuśrī replied, “The conceivable samādhi has an appearance that can be captured while the inconceivable samādhi has no appearance to be captured. All sentient beings have attained the inconceivable samādhi. Why? Because all mental appearances are not the [true] mind. Therefore, the [mental] appearances of all sentient beings and the appearance of the inconceivable samādhi are the same, not different.”


It is the interpretation of the latter part that I am wondering on: "Because all mental appearances are not the [true] mind." I am wondering about "not" and "[true]" here.

Astus wrote:
舍利弗言：「不可思議定不可得耶？」
文殊師利言：「思議定者，是可得相；不可思議定者，不可得相。一切眾生實成就不思議定。何以故？一切心相即非心故，是名不思議定。是故一切眾生相及不思議三昧相，等無分別。」
( http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T08n0232_002#0729c08 )

As the square brackets suggest, the word "true" was added by the translator, but it does not really belong there. The inconceivable samadhi cannot be attained (不可得), because it has no characteristics (相 - this is translated by Rulu as "appearance") that could be grasped (得 - attained, Rulu: captured). Sentient beings have the inconceivable samadhi, because they are empty, as was discussed in the first fascicle (T232p726b23-c19). Similarly, thoughts (心相 - Rulu: mental appearances) are mindless/inconceivable (非心 - acitta, acintya), in other words: empty.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 24th, 2017 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Vipasyana Meditation
Content:
Dharmasherab said:
Seems very useful.

Astus wrote:
Here are some good classical works containing vipasyana instructions that are available online:

http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra13.html
http://www.bdkamerica.org/system/files/pdf/dBET_T0614_SutraConcentration_2009_0.pdf
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 24th, 2017 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Dharma Wheel Heavy Weights
Content:
CedarTree said:
Only one thing you mentioned was unclear to me and I would like you to explore it a bit.  "This bamboo is long, that one is short".  I have an idea but I rather you show me your understanding and the origin of this teaching.

Astus wrote:
Master Yunmen quoted Dharma teacher [Seng] Zhao’s words:
"All individual entities (dharmas) are without difference — [yet] one must not stretch the duck’s [legs] and shorten the crane’s, level the peaks and fill up the valleys, and then think that they are not different!"
(Record of Yunmen, p 193, tr App)

"Within and without (the cosmos) is calm. Co-operation has ceased.
Thus, restoring the union, the Sage withdraws into silence.
Therefore a sutra says: 'Dharma do not differ (from each other)'. Does it tell us 'to stretch the legs of the duck and cut short those of the crane', to pull down the mountains and fill up the valleys in order to smooth out life? If only you can understand that the diverse is of the relative order then it loses its diversity. Therefore a Sutra says: 'Marvellous, World-honoured One, taking your stand in oneness you say that the dharma vary'. It also says: 'Prajna and the dharma are neither one nor two'. This we may believe."
(Chao Lun, ch 3, p 79, tr Liebenthal)

"He who holds to True Rightness does not lose the original form of his inborn nature. So for him, joined things are not webbed toes; things forking off are not superfluous fingers; the long is never too much; the short is never too little. 9 The duck’s legs are short, but to stretch them out would worry him; the crane’s legs are long, but to cut them down would make him sad. What is long by nature needs no cutting off; what is short by nature needs no stretching. That would be no way to get rid of worry."
(Zhuangzi, ch 8, p 61, tr Watson)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 23rd, 2017 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Vipasyana Meditation
Content:
Dharmasherab said:
I want to know about the Vipasyana meditation methods used in Mahayana as well as in Vajrayana (but not Theravada).

Astus wrote:
Zhiyi:
http://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/ebm_book_page.htm
http://kalavinka.org/kp_book_pages/sgs_book_page.htm
http://www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/p-9843-9780824873776.aspx

Madhyamaka:
https://books.google.com/books?id=qylyQHr3AacC
https://books.google.com/books?id=y6HzxLUC7rQC
https://books.google.com/books?id=pbQDAAAACAAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=vJVDCUcwirgC

Mahamudra:
https://books.google.com/books?id=_C8qAwAAQBAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ty-Kp4co9-wC
https://books.google.com/books?id=lKd9CAAAQBAJ
https://books.google.com/books?id=rUjUBgAAQBAJ


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 23rd, 2017 at 3:30 PM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I don't know what! I just know that it is.

Astus wrote:
As an extension to what Malcolm said, it is one of the main points of the buddha-nature teachings that through removing the defilements the buddha qualities appear. In other words, there is nothing else needed but getting rid of the afflictions.

"It is only this One Mind that is Buddha; there is no distinction between Buddhas and sentient beings. However, sentient beings are attached to characteristics and seek outside themselves. Seeking it, they lose it even more. Sending the Buddha in search of the Buddha, grasping the mind with the mind, they may exhaust themselves in striving for an entire eon but will never get it. They do not understand that if they cease their thoughts and end their thinking, the Buddha will automatically be present."
(Huangbo: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 13; highlight added)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 23rd, 2017 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
What troubles me about this is that only detachment, only letting go, is an end in itself.  But what about that gives rise to bodhicitta? Where is the 'energy of compassion'?

Astus wrote:
Bodhicitta is the will to enlightenment, the aspiration to buddhahood, so it comes at the beginning, not at the end. The energy of compassion is what? Do you mean the effort to https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=320928#p320928?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 23rd, 2017 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: and because they are synonymous with Mind, they are sentient beings
Content:
DGA said:
What is meant by mind in the passage quoted and ensuing discussion?

Astus wrote:
Seeing, hearing, sensing, thinking. The six consciousnesses.

DGA said:
How does it follow that all things have Buddha nature if one sees without clinging to concepts?

Astus wrote:
Buddha-nature is suchness. When there is no attachment to ideas, that is seeing things as they are.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 22nd, 2017 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: and because they are synonymous with Mind, they are sentient beings
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
I think it's likely a translation issue.

Astus wrote:
It is true that there is no plural marker, however, there is the word "all" (一切 / みな) used in places to clarify that it is all beings.

いま佛道にいふ 一切衆生 は、有心者 みな衆生 なり、心是衆生なるがゆゑに。無心者おなじく衆生なるべし、衆生是心なるがゆゑに。しかあれば、 心みな これ衆生なり、 衆生みな これ有佛性なり。草木國土これ心なり、心なるがゆゑに衆生なり、衆生なるがゆゑに有佛性なり。
( http://www.shomonji.or.jp/soroku/genzou03/index.html / T2582_.82.0097c11-T2582_.82.0097c17 )

It would also be a good idea to look into other works in the Shobogenzo where this concept of "insentient buddha-nature" is discussed.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 22nd, 2017 at 3:49 PM
Title: Re: Dharma Wheel Heavy Weights
Content:
CedarTree said:
Tell us about your practice history, what were some big stand out things that you think happened or insights or things you learned or experienced and so forth that helped bring you to where you are now.



Astus wrote:
I can mention some generic titles, but I'm not at the point of working on my autobiography.

- Nanquan's cat & satipatthana
- Nothing is still something
- One mind and no mind
- This bamboo is long, that one is short
- The mind cannot be found
- Karma is thoughts

CedarTree said:
And where are you now?  *Meaning what are you doing, studying, practicing, and how do you see your life and practice as well as others and others practices*

Astus wrote:
This week I began to read The Great Commentary by Vimalamitra.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 22nd, 2017 at 3:25 PM
Title: Re: Wall Gazing
Content:
lovekuanyin said:
If you stare long enough, the mind turns into emptiness. ... it is important to continue practicing this everyday until all delusions are emptied.

Astus wrote:
Insight (vipasyana) is to recognise that all thoughts are empty as they are. Trying to make the mind empty is an endless endeavour. So, as Huineng said (Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 29):

"If you empty your minds and sit in quietude, this is to become attached to the emptiness of blankness." and
"there are deluded people who empty their minds and sit in quietude without thinking of anything whatsoever, claiming that this is great."

furthermore (ch 6, p 47):

"One must not become immersed in emptiness, protecting one’s tranquility. One should study extensively and become learned [in the scriptures], recognizing one’s own fundamental mind and attaining the various principles of Buddhism."


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 22nd, 2017 at 3:17 PM
Title: Re: and because they are synonymous with Mind, they are sentient beings
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
So it's not that the rock has a separate mindstream, according to the Ven Dōgen quote, it's that the rock is in your head. Not seperate after all

Astus wrote:
Dogen does not discuss things in that way. Look at his comment on the story quoted in Sangai-yuishi (SBGZ BDK ed, vol 3, p 66-67):

They never understand “the triple world is mind alone,” they never negate understanding of “the triple world is mind alone,” they never express “the triple world is mind alone,” and they never negate expression of “the triple world is mind alone.”

His point is simply to see without clinging to concepts. That's why insentient things are buddha-nature.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 22nd, 2017 at 5:55 AM
Title: Re: and because they are synonymous with Mind, they are sentient beings
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
There are no mental object outside the mind, but are there no objects outside the mind?

Astus wrote:
An object is what is perceived, what is perceived is a mental object.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 22nd, 2017 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: and because they are synonymous with Mind, they are sentient beings
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
how Ven Dōgen connects the dots from mental objects to sentient beings? What does "mind" and "sentient being" in this context mean without the intersection of 5 sense consciousnesses?

Astus wrote:
There are no mental objects outside the mind, and what has mind is a sentient being.

Look at some other translations:

The meaning of “all living beings,” as described now in Buddhism, is that all those that have mind are “living beings,” for minds are just “living beings.” Those without mind may also be “living beings,” for “living beings” are just mind. So minds all are “living beings,” and “living beings” all “have the buddha-nature.” Grass, trees, and national lands are mind itself; because they are mind, they are “living beings,” and because they are “living beings” they “have the buddha-nature.”
(tr Nishijima-Cross, SBGZ BDK ed, vol 2, p 21)

In “all living beings” spoken of here on the way of the buddha, those with minds are “all living beings”; for the mind is living beings. Those without minds are similarly living beings; for living beings are mind. Therefore, all minds are living beings, and living beings all “have the buddha nature.” The grasses, trees and lands are mind; because they are mind, they are living beings; because they are living beings, they “have the buddha nature.”
(tr Carl Bielefeldt in http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/dharma/pdf/26eF.pdf, p 19)

Then consider the followings:

"When stupid people hear talk of “mind here and now is buddha,” they interpret that ordinary beings’ intellect and sense perception, which have never established the bodhi-mind, are just buddha. ... “The mind that has been authentically transmitted” means one mind as all dharmas, and all dharmas as one mind." ... "Mind as mountains, rivers, and the earth is nothing other than mountains, rivers, and the earth. There are no additional waves or surf, no wind or smoke. Mind as the sun, the moon, and the stars is nothing other than the sun, the moon, and the stars. There is no additional fog or mist. Mind as living-and-dying, coming-and-going, is nothing other than living-and-dying, coming-and-going. There is no additional delusion or realization. Mind as fences, walls, tiles, and pebbles is nothing other than fences, walls, tiles, and pebbles. There is no additional mud or water. Mind as the four elements and five aggregates is nothing other than the four elements and five aggregates. There is no additional horse or monkey. Mind as a chair or a whisk is nothing other than a chair or a whisk. There is no additional bamboo or wood. Because the state is like this, “mind here and now is buddha” is untainted “mind here and now is buddha.”"
(Soku-shin-ze-butsu, SBGZ BDK ed, vol 1, p 65, 68, 69)

"Thus, the words now spoken by the Tathāgata, “The triple world is only the mind” are the whole realization of the whole Tathāgata, and his whole life is the whole of this one saying. The triple world is the whole world; we do not say that the triple world is the same thing as mind. The reason is that however brilliant in all aspects the triple world is, it is still the triple world." ... "We should clearly realize in practice that “the suitably transforming Dharma bodies of the buddhas” are all of “the triple world.” The triple world has “no outside,” in the same way, for example, as the Tathāgata has “no outside,” and in the same way as fences and walls have “no outside.” Just as the triple world has “no outside,” living beings have “no outside.”"
(Sangai-yuishin, SBGZ BDK ed, vol 3, p 62, 64)

"The realization of the Buddhist patriarchs is perfectly realized real form. Real form is all dharmas. All dharmas are forms as they are, natures as they are, body as it is, the mind as it is, the world as it is, clouds and rain as they are, walking, standing, sitting, and lying down, as they are; sorrow and joy, movement and stillness, as they are; a staff and a whisk, as they are; a twirling flower and a smiling face, as they are; succession of the Dharma and affirmation, as they are; learning in practice and pursuing the truth, as they are; the constancy of pines and the integrity of bamboos, as they are."
(Shoho-jisso, SBGZ BDK ed, vol 3, p 62, 64)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 16th, 2017 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?
Content:
Temicco said:
The early Thien tradition has a particularly bad track record as far as blatant fraud is concerned

Astus wrote:
Do you know any tradition with a good record?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 16th, 2017 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
Meido said:
Is this controversial?

Astus wrote:
No. Thank you for the clarification.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 15th, 2017 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
Dan74 said:
I think the importance of the relationship with a qualified teacher is that

1. He/she can identify where a student is stuck and given the students karmic package, how best to deal with this 'stuckness' - which practice/teaching is appropriate
2. Can act as a mirror to the student in which he/she can see their own projections/clinging/aversion reflected back to them
3. Basically do all they can to motivate and inspire the student to persevere with practice including modelling and giving a taste of what it is like

Astus wrote:
According to the Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment one better avoid having expectations toward teachers:

"The Buddha preaches that in the gradual perfection of such a person, he should seek a good friend so as not to fall into errant views, but that if he produces likes and dislikes in regard to what he seeks, then he will not be able to enter the ocean of pure enlightenment."
(ch 9, p 96)

"If those good friends are close to them, they should cut off their pride. If those good friends are distant from them, they should cut off their anger. The occurrence of states of attraction and aversion is like empty space."
(ch 10, p 101)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 15th, 2017 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
DGA said:
Who has done this?

Astus wrote:
How do you read then Meido's words?

"In Zen this ties into what is meant by "transmission outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters": the lifeblood of the path is realized within face to face human relationship, that is, within the ba ("field") of the teacher. ...  I'd have just told him to go elsewhere. The reason is that it means to me he is not seeking relationship with a teacher and community in order to actualize Zen."

DGA said:
The point is that you need a relationship with a living teacher to actualize the teachings, to realize them for yourself.

Astus wrote:
I think "need" is too much. Rather it is recommended.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 15th, 2017 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
Malcolm said:
You apparently missed the word "qualified."

Astus wrote:
That word was not used in that post. Still, even if it goes without saying that only qualified teachers are meant, why focus on the individual rather than the message? For instance, what qualifies a teacher in PP8000 (tr Conze) is the teaching:

Subhuti: Who are those good friends of a Bodhisattva?
The Lord: The Buddhas and Lords, and also the irreversible Bodhisattvas who are skilful in the Bodhisattva-course, and who instruct and admonish him in the perfections, who demonstrate and expound the perfection of wisdom. The perfection of wisdom in particular should be regarded as a Bodhisattva’s good friend. All the six perfections, in fact, are the good friends of a Bodhisattva. They are his Teacher, his path, his light, his torch, his illumination, his shelter, his refuge, his place of rest, his final relief, his island, his mother, his father, and they lead him to cognition, to understanding, to full enlightenment. For it is in these perfections that the perfection of wisdom is accomplished.

Similarly in the Lotus Sutra (ch 10, BDK ed, p 158):

"After my parinirvāṇa, if there are any sons and daughters of a virtuous family who expound even a single line of the Lotus Sutra in private to even a single person, they should be acknowledged as the ambassadors of the Tathāgata. They have been dispatched by the Tathāgata and carry out the Tathāgata’s work. As for those who extensively teach among the common people, know that they are yet greater ambassadors."

And the Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment (ch 5, BDK ed, p 77):

"When they meet a good friend (kalyāṇamitra) and rely on the dharmic practice of the causal ground taught by him, there will be sudden and gradual [aspects] in their approach to practice. If they encounter the path of the true practice of the unsurpassed enlightenment (bodhi) of the Tathāgata, all will attain buddhahood regardless of whether their capacities are great or small. If sentient beings encounter someone with errant views in their quest for a good friend, they will never attain true enlightenment"


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, November 14th, 2017 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher
Content:
Meido said:
It doesn't make sense to seek out lineages, methods, styles and so on, and certainly not to choose a teacher based on them. This is because the path is actualized within human relationship with a teacher with whom one shares affinity. One should therefore just seek one's shisho, the teacher (of any tradition) with whom one has deep affinity, and take that relationship as the foundation of one's path and the source of lineages, methods, and the rest. To seek a teacher based on those things rather than affinity is exactly backwards.

In Zen this ties into what is meant by "transmission outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters": the lifeblood of the path is realized within face to face human relationship, that is, within the ba ("field") of the teacher. It is also related to what is meant by "direct pointing at the mind" as the function of the teacher.

Astus wrote:
That sounds to be the very opposite of one of the four reliances: "Rely on the teaching rather than the person." (Nirvana Sutra, 4.3, BDK ed, p 193; http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T12n0374_006#0401b25, also Vimalakirti Sutra ch 13 http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T14n0475_003#0556b17 ), that Nagarjuna explains as "Relying on the truth in itself is keeping to the twelve categories of texts and not keeping to the authority of a person." (MPPS, ch 15, tr Lamotte-Chodron, p 425; http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T25n1509_009#0125a28 ). Mipham explains this point in the following manner: "No matter what kind of person a teacher is, he cannot purify or liberate you. If the teaching he gives is truly meaningful, it is proper to adhere to it. But if it is not meaningful, it is improper to adhere to it. Thus, one should not rely on the person but on the teaching." (Gateway to Knowledge, vol 3, p 123) Shengyan talked in a similar fashion: "If their views of the Dharma are correct, then even if their behavior reveals some weaknesses, they should not be considered false masters. On the other hand, if teachers do not have a correct view of the Dharma, they cannot be considered authentic or virtuous masters." ( http://ddc.shengyen.org/cgi-bin/ccdd/show.py?s=09-06p0027 )

In light of the above, why would the person be the most important in Zen?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 10th, 2017 at 8:23 PM
Title: Re: By way of welcome: Let's drink some tea!
Content:
Astus wrote:
Tea washes the mouth.

"Meditation was a labour, all night long, but
When you brewed tea, I felt infinitely glad.
Just one cup of tea, and the dark clouds were banished,
Feeling cool to my very bones, all worry vanished."
(Muuija: With Thanks for the Tea and an Answer to the Questions, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 9, p 90)

Tea washes the bowl.

"When one is hungry, and can eat, the rice is tastier,
Waking from sleep, and sipping tea, the tea is sweeter.
This place is poor, and since no one knocks at the door
In the empty hermitage, its a joy to be with Buddha in a niche."
(Wongam: Written at leisure, in CWKBv9, p 131)

Tea washes the brain.

"Everything is just as it is from the beginning, not created.
Why toil away to seek the truth from outside?
All you need is concentration, not arousing the mind.
If thirsty, boil tea, if you feel tired, go to bed."
(Preceptor Naong: Reply to Monk Bo’s Request for a Verse, in CWKBv9, p 214)

The kettle can never be emptied.

"All his life, the novice should
Brew tea for Master Zhaozhou.
When the mind is gone and the hair is white
What need is there to recite Nanzhou?"
(Cheongheodang: Seon Master Toun, in CWKBv9, p 320)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 9th, 2017 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: Yunmen Wenyan
Content:
pokii said:
Yunmen is , was, will, be..one of the most important moments in chan/zen history...

Astus wrote:
How so?

pokii said:
Why are his words not used, explained, understood, and so on..

Astus wrote:
Shenxiu and Shenhui were verifiably important historical teachers, however, their teachings were abandoned and forgotten almost completely in a few hundred years.

"in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering."
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn20/sn20.007.than.html )

pokii said:
Would you please say, if you will, something about him, or anything you would about Yunmen?

Astus wrote:
If one examines this thoroughly, it’s stone-dead.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 6th, 2017 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: The Void
Content:
Relinquish said:
In truth, any given 'particular thing' (for example, a 'tree') exists in a state of constant change, which is to say that 'the tree' is in fact a 'process' rather than a 'thing'.

Astus wrote:
A process is no less an illusion than a thing. For something to be a process you need past, present, and future. For a process you need something to change from one moment to the other. So, a "process tree" is as absurd as a "thing tree".

Relinquish said:
This process can ONLY be occurring if the necessary conditions are present.

Astus wrote:
Here the process is already used as a thing that is in relation with other things.

Relinquish said:
In this way, 'the tree' naturally includes the entirety of the rest of the universe within it's own existence, and so there is no REAL difference between 'the tree' and 'not the tree'.

Astus wrote:
That's saying that the child includes the entirety of its ancestors, however, a child is not the parents, so such a statement is nonsense.

Relinquish said:
Fundamentally, all the different processes are actually arbitrarily delineated, impermanent 'features' of the eternally cyclic Process of Being (the only Process that ever actually occurs in Reality, commonly known as the universe).

Astus wrote:
While a simple tree may be called conceptual, fabricating capitalised terms like "Process of Being" is only drawing legs on a painted snake.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 6th, 2017 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: The Bamboo Flutes of Japan’s ‘Monks of Emptiness’
Content:
Astus wrote:
A recommended reading from Gunnar Jinmei Linder is https://books.google.com/books/about/Deconstructing_Tradition_in_Japanese_Mus.html?id=NeekMwEACAAJ ( http://su.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:488776/FULLTEXT01.pdf )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, November 6th, 2017 at 4:14 PM
Title: Re: How is the Mind-Body Problem Treated in Buddhism?
Content:
Astus wrote:
This relationship between body and mind is what falls under the so called unanswered questions regarding the identity of sarira (body) and jiva (soul). The short answer is that Buddhism has an experiential view, as shown in the teachings on the five aggregates and six sensory domains, where physical and mental phenomena are not substantially differentiated.

"If there is the view, 'The soul and the body are the same,' there is no living of the holy life; and if there is the view, 'The soul is one thing, the body is another,' there is no living of the holy life. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle: 'With birth as condition, aging-and-death.'"
(SN 12.35)

"Bhikkhus, when what exists, by clinging to what, by adhering to what, does such a view as this arise: 'The soul and the body are the same'?"
...
"Bhikkhus, when what exists, by clinging to what, by adhering to what, does such a view as this arise: 'The soul is one thing, the body another'?"
...
"But without clinging to what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change, could such a view as that arise?"
"No, venerable sir."
(SN 24.13, 14)

"Master Gotama, what is the cause and reason why these various speculative views arise in the world: ... 'The soul and the body are the same' or 'The soul is one thing, the body is another'..."
"It is, Vaccha, because of not knowing form/feeling/perception/volitional formations/consciousness, its origin, its cessation, and the way leading to its cessation that those various speculative views arise in the world"
(SN 33.1-5)

"As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, 'The world is eternal' '" -these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajala: when there is identity view, these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be."
(SN 41.3)

"Vaccha, wanderers of other sects regard the eye thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' They regard the ear . . . the nose . . . the tongue . . . the body . . . the mind thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' Therefore, when the wanderers of other sects are asked such questions, they give such answers as: 'The world is eternal' . . . or 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.' But, Vaccha, the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One, regards the eye thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' He regards the ear . . . the mind thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' Therefore, when the Tathagata is asked such questions, he does not give such answers."
(SN 44.7)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 5th, 2017 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: Satthipathana Sutta: Best Translation AND original text
Content:
Astus wrote:
For the originals:
http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0102m.mul8.xml
http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0201m.mul0.xml


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, November 5th, 2017 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Satthipathana Sutta: Best Translation AND original text
Content:
Astus wrote:
Soma Thera: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html
Ven. Analayo: https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/pdf/5-personen/analayo/direct-path.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, November 3rd, 2017 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
seeker242 said:
I'm saying a world that is impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial can be considered complete, not lacking anything when you don't desire it to be some other way.

Astus wrote:
"Originally there being no moving and nothing to be obtained is called the Buddha-Dharma, the Buddha’s truth. The Buddha- Dharma lies just in walking, standing, sitting, and lying down. Adding even a bit to it is impossible, whereas taking away just a bit is also impossible. Realizing this, you will not waste even the slightest energy. As soon as you estimate it by deliberation to be something marvelous and mysterious, you already have nothing to do with it."
(Eisai: A Treatise on Letting Zen Flourish, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 145; emphasis added)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, November 2nd, 2017 at 5:37 PM
Title: Re: The concept of the teacher’s “blessings”
Content:
smcj said:
There is no Dharma called "blessing", no magical force called "blessing". If there was, the Buddha, being compassionate, would have blessed us all into nirvana long ago.
Buddhas are neither omnipotent or capable of unilateral action. The request/receptivity must be initiated by sentient being.

Astus wrote:
Blessing is a positive change in relation to one's progress on the path to liberation. It is a specific case of receiving merit transference that comes from the appreciation of enlightened beings, while the generic meaning of receiving merit is the agreeing with any wholesome act, and that is a beneficial form of shared karma.

On the one hand, it can be said that it's all in one's mind, particularly for two reasons: all perceptions are mental fabrication, and karma is strictly individual. On the other hand, it is an inspiration originating from others, because without awareness of enlightened beings, no appreciation can occur, and without appreciation there can be no blessing.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, November 1st, 2017 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: The concept of the teacher’s “blessings”
Content:
Astus wrote:
"So when you supplicate them, even though, like your root guru, they cannot hand you attainment. or fruition; yet, like your root guru, they can influence and help you. It is not panicularly that by supplicating them they are pleased and therefore decide to share their spiritual wealth with you. It is rather that the devotion you generate in your supplication causes this blessing simply to occur."
...
"Supplication produces blessing, and although the blessing is understood as something given to you, something that somehow engulfs you from outside, in fact blessing really isn't given to you at all. When you supplicate, you generate faith and devotion. That faith and devotion cause the appearance of what we call blessing."
...
"To say that the blessing of Dharma enters into you does not mean that through receiving an empowerment you can immediately fly in the sky, or that you become intoxicated with some kind of mysterious spiritual drunkenness. It means simply that having received the empowerment, something changes. There will be at least a little increase in your faith and devotion, at least a little increase in your diligence. These changes in you are the principal blessing or benefit of the empowerment process. For example, many people have told me that they were previo·usly unable to understand or settle on the validity of Buddhism, but then, for one reason or another, they received the Kalachakra empowerment from His Holiness the Dalai Lama and thereafter have been intensely involved in practice. That is an instance of the blessing of empowerment. It is not necessarily that they are practicing Kalachakra, but that, because of that empowerment, they are practicing Dharma."
(Khenchen Thrangu: Creation and Completion, p 114, 117, 151)

"The Tibetan is jin gyi lab pa and means to be transformed through a certain environment and influence. This is the meaning of “blessing” from the Buddhist point of view. It denotes a total transformation from the core of our being, which is induced by different things happening around us. Empowerment, in its actual sense, should lead us to receive this blessing and to undergo a genuine and complete transformation."
(Ringu Tulku: Daring Steps Toward Fearlessness, p 133)

"Such an infusion of blessing can take place without any difficulty. It comes through invocation originating from one’s faith and veneration. A devotee with deep faith receives a powerful blessing. One with medium faith receives a medium blessing.One with lesser faith receives the lesser blessing. It is the nature of things that one cannot receive spiritual blessing without faith. For those practitioners who have failed to gain deep understanding, there is no other way except that of worshiping the guru with faith, and through meditation invoking his blessings. Even those who have gained understanding should continue to have faith in their guru as a means of strengthening and perfecting their inner development."
(Gampopa quoted in Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 136-137)

"Our capacity to receive the compassion and blessings of the teacher and the Three Jewels, therefore, depends entirely on devotion and faith.
Once, a disciple called out to the master Jowo Atisa, "Jowo, give me your blessing!"
"Lax disciple," Atisa replied, "give me your devotion ... "
So absolute unwavering trust, arising from extraordinary faith and devotion, is indispensable. It opens the door to taking refuge."
(Patrul rinpoche: Words of My Perfect Teacher, p 176)

"The guru's blessings are always present, day and night. The buddhas and bodhisattvas, all the masters of the lineage, and your personal root guru are always full of blessings, continuously, throughout the three times. But how do these blessings saturate our own mind-stream to bring us to maturation? This happens when the concepts of me and mine have melted away in the state of devotion. It is this ego that prevents blessings from ripening our stream-of-being. The concept of self melts away in the atmosphere of devotion. This is when the warmth of blessings permeates you completely."
(Tsoknyi rinpoche, in Dzogchen Essentials, p 13)

"Devotion is the root of blessings, the basis for receiving blessings. Blessings definitely do exist, so we should know what they are and what the role of devotion is in receiving blessings. Otherwise, there is not much point in devotion.
Blessings are contagious, so to speak, and are transmitted in a fashion that is rather like catching a cold. If somebody has a cold and you are too close, you catch a cold too. Likewise, if you get close to a master who has blessings, they can be transmitted to you. Blessings here mean the sense of some power of realization or power of samadhi, some kind of atmosphere of realization that is naturally present, You move close to him, in the sense of opening yourself up through devotion and making sincere, heartfelt supplications. In other words, you lower your defenses, whatever doubts and suspicions that prevent you from being "infected" with the blessings. The moment you do that, you catch a cold as well. Devotion is a very deeply felt and sincere emotion, which comes from the bottom of one's heart. It is partly a sense of really rejoicing, rejoicing in the qualities that are embodied in the teacher. At the same time, there is a sense of gratitude for the teacher's incredible kindness. This combination of rejoicing and gratitude is what opens us up, what generates devotion.
Devotion can be toward the Buddha, the Dharma, the Sangha, in terms of truly rejoicing in and appreciating their amazing qualities, of knowledge and compassion, and so forth. To be open toward that and rejoice in those qualities is one aspect of devotion. At the same time, when we understand how it benefits ourselves to train in the recognition of our basic nature, we feel gratitude, an appreciation of the kindness.
Otherwise, there could be many kinds of devotion. There is the devotion that is simply love, love generated by the thought, "He was nice to me, so I like him." There is devotion that is an admiration, in that you feel in awe of a person or thing. Then there is devotion inspired by some kind of longing to emulate someone-you want to be like that as well. However, in the beginning, devotion is some kind of fabrication. We are trying to feel in a certain way, trying to open up. It is artificial, but it makes us grow closer to understanding the view, in the sense that devotion opens us up to realize emptiness, makes it easier. When some authentic experience of emptiness strengthens devotion even further, at that point it is no longer artificial or contrived. We may begin by trying to feel devotion, and then, later on, actual experience allows it to become totally uncontrived. Uncontrived devotion springs out of the experience of the view. Because when there is some seeing in actuality of what is called rigpa or ordinary mind, the natural mind that really solves or liberates disturbing emotions-when the conceptual frame of mind is  opened up. by this recognition-then we have a personal taste of the value and the worth of the practice. It is that real appreciation that is uncontrived devotion. In this way, devotion and the view of emptiness mutually strengthen one another."
(Tsoknyi rinpoche, in Dzogchen Primer, p 163-164)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 30th, 2017 at 7:10 AM
Title: Re: Zen Forum International
Content:
jake said:
Why do you think people prefer FB?

Astus wrote:
A number of logical reasons have already been given here by Passel and Kim. Or we could just say that nowadays discussion boards are not trending as much as social networks.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 30th, 2017 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: Zen Forum International
Content:
anjali said:
Also, maybe the Zen community is utilizing other online platforms like facebook more effectively.

Astus wrote:
For one, the " https://www.facebook.com/groups/SotoZenGlobal/ " group on facebook is quite active.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, October 30th, 2017 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
seeker242 said:
It could mean "stability, pleasure, etc." like in the previous examples. It could also mean "complete, not lacking anything, etc.". In this context, I think the latter is more appropriate.

Astus wrote:
Are you saying that samsara can be described as stable, pleasurable, and not lacking anything? Those would be the very opposites of impermanent, dissatisfying, and insubstantial.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, October 29th, 2017 at 5:34 PM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
seeker242 said:
Everywhere! If samsara is nirvana and nirvana is perfect, then it must follow that samsara is perfect also.

Astus wrote:
What does it mean to be perfect then?


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, October 29th, 2017 at 5:15 PM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
Astus, which term would you prefer for paramita? I leave it untranslated when talking about them.

Astus wrote:
I don't really have one.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, October 29th, 2017 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The definition of Prajñāpāramitā which I am familiar with is 'perfection of wisdom'.  I am inclined to retain that definition.

Astus wrote:
Perfection is an English rendering of paramita, but not the only one. A standard Chinese translation is du 度 that means to pass, to cross over, while the Tibetan is pha rol tu phyin pa, i.e. go to the other side. So apparently they both followed the traditional Buddhist understanding when translating the word. After all, the paramitas are not the end but the means.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, October 29th, 2017 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
As long as there is suffering, there is enlightenment, freedom from suffering. This is the Third Noble Truth.

Astus wrote:
How does that relate to the http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartstr.htm?

"There is No Truth of Suffering,
Of the Cause of Suffering,
Of the Cessation of Suffering, 
Nor of the Path.
There is No Wisdom, and 
There is No Attainment Whatsoever."


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, October 28th, 2017 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
there remains a quality of perfection

Astus wrote:
Remains where?

Wayfarer said:
I am reminded of Lex Hixon's commentary on the Prajñāpāramitā: when perception of the world is no longer burdened with the imputed meanings that are attached to it on account of attachment, it is perceived in its suchness, tathata, as an aspect of boundless Reality: ineffable, limitless, boundaryless, frontierless, divisionless, identityless, infinite, transparent, harmoniously functioning, open, free, elusive, deep, pure, empty, sublime, calmly quiet, at peace, and blissfully awakened. (Hixon 1993)
That is why Prajñāpāramitā is referred to as the 'perfection of wisdom', isn't it?

Astus wrote:
Not really. That kind of perfection you mention is more of a poetic interpretation.

“Pāramitā” means “reaching  to  the  other  shore.” Because  it  is  able  to  reach  to  the  other  shore  of  the  great  sea of wisdom and because it reaches to its very boundaries and utterly exhausts its most ultimate limits, it qualifies as “perfect” in  its “reaching to the other shore.”
( http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/N6P_excerpts/N6P_X-Bk4_X-15.pdf, ch 30, tr Dharmamitra)

"What is meant by Paramita? It is a Sanskrit word which in our language means ‘arrived at the other shore,’ and is explained as ‘apart from production and extinction.’ When one is attached to states of being, production and extinction arise like waves on water. That is what is meant by ‘this shore.’ To be apart from states of being, with no production or extinction, is to be like freely flowing water. That is what is meant by ‘the other shore.’ Therefore it is called ‘Paramita’."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, tr BTTS, p 124)

Wayfarer said:
which is expressed in the Buddhist-inspired artwork and iconography of China and Japan. Actually I recall being told that Chinese fine ceramics often have a deliberate slight imperfection or flaw so as to denote the imperfection of all compound things. But they are beautiful, nonetheless.

Astus wrote:
I think you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi.

Here is Nagarjuna on not seeking anything:

"Then again, if the bodhisattva refrains from taking up the practice of any particular dharma, because he does not apprehend any dharma whatsoever, he may thereby succeed in realizing prajñāpāramitā. How can this be the case? All practices are essentially false and unreal. In some cases, they possess faults in the near term. In other cases, they possess faults in the more distant term. 
In the case of unwholesome dharmas, in the near term, they are involve karmic transgressions. In the case of good dharmas, there may be a time when, after a long while, they become so transformed that one becomes attached to them and thus generates distressful suffering on their account. In that case, they involve karmic transgressions in the distant term. 
These circumstances are analogous to the certain cases involving both fine food and bad food, both of which have been mixed  with poison. When one eats the bad food, one immediately becomes  displeased. When one eats the fine food, although one will immediately be pleased, still, after a long while, in both cases, one’s life will  be stolen away. In fact, neither of the two should be eaten. All good  and bad practices are comparable to these circumstances.
...
If one is able to practice the dharma of “no practice” in this manner, in every case, nothing whatsoever is gained. Inverted views, falseness, and afflictions are finally not produced at all. Because one remains as pure as empty space, one succeeds then in realizing the true character of dharmas. One takes having nothing whatsoever which is gained as that which is gained."
( http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/N6P_excerpts/N6P_X-Bk4_X-15.pdf, ch 30, tr Dharmamitra)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, October 28th, 2017 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Nothing further to seek...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
It’s rather easy to believe that as Nirvāṇa and samsara are not two, then we have nothing further to seek, that we are already enlightened. You hear that a lot in various forms of modernised Buddhism and other spiritual philosophies - you perfect as you are, there is no need to strive for anything. ‘Lucky is one with nothing further to seek’.

Astus wrote:
The misleading word here is "perfect". The true nature of life, the universe, and everything is: impermanent, dissatisfying, and impersonal. Those are not exactly the common associations for the word "perfect". What sentient beings love is stability, pleasure, and importance, the very opposites of how things really are. But even though one ceaselessly pursues the illusion of perfection, there is no end to the chase. Therefore, when the real qualities of existence are seen, it is through the relinquishing of the lives long pursuit of perfection that one arrives at aimlessness, the total extinction of seeking. Such peace is attained not because there is anything to gain, nor because there is something to let go, but because it has become clear that life cannot be fixed, that all hopes and fears are utterly baseless and fabricated.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 28th, 2017 at 7:44 PM
Title: Re: NOT another Jhana Thread
Content:
Zafutales said:
I mean if one was sitting in Zazen and specifically Shikantaza how would one be able to rely upon or validate ones experience?

Astus wrote:
There are two sides here. First, the typical answer is that it is for the teacher to validate the disciple. As it is stated in the http://www.cttbusa.org/6patriarch/6patriarch16.asp:

“That was acceptable before the time of the Buddha called the Awesome-Voiced King. But since the coming of that Buddha, all those who ‘self-enlighten’ without a master belong to other religions which hold to the tenet of spontaneity.”

Second, shikantaza is itself the practice of verification, whereby one directly recognises that all experiences are ungraspable, hence there is no experience to be validated.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 28th, 2017 at 4:15 PM
Title: Re: NOT another Jhana Thread
Content:
Zafutales said:
I have seen reference at times to Shikantaza being likened to the Fourth Jhana - can someone elucidate the rationale for this please?

Astus wrote:
There can be three reasons for that assumption: not understanding shikantaza, not understanding dhyanas, not understanding either.

If it's the first one, then one mistakes a stable and calm mind as the proper mental state of zazen. In other words, the ghost cave of liberation.
If it's the second one, then one mistakes only a little bit of concentration as a dhyana.
If it's the third one, then one is completely lost in one's own ideas and fails to rely on the correct teachings.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, September 19th, 2017 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: Relative vs. Ultimate Truth
Content:
spiao said:
I just want to check if I'm thinking in the right direction.

Astus wrote:
The conventional/relative truth is whatever is held as valid by people, or simply dependent origination. The ultimate truth is the absence of substance, i.e. emptiness.

So, unlike in your file, inter-dependence is the relative truth, causality, appearances. The middle way is not a third option, but the lack of extreme views.

As for your questions:
- "the conclusion is already built in the premise", the two truths doctrine is not an argument but an educational device
- "Is there any phenomenon that has inherent existence?", no
- "what about abstractions and concepts", they are the products of imagination, nothing more

Explanations:
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/twotruths-india/
Patrul Rinpoche: http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/patrul-rinpoche/two-truths-view-mahayana


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, September 7th, 2017 at 3:56 PM
Title: Re: Can you practice without a teacher?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Dogen writes:

"If you want to study the supreme Buddhist Truth, you have to visit excellent Buddhist masters in far-off China. Reflect upon the vigorous road that is far beyond intellectual thinking. If you cannot find a true master, it is better not to study at all."
( https://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/GakuDoYoJinShu.pdf )

Brad Warner comments:

"Notice, though, that Dogen never said don’t do zazen without a teacher, he just said don’t study Buddhism without one. Although doing zazen is a form of studying Buddhism, it won’t do most folks any harm at all to sit zazen on their own. Just don’t get too gung-ho about it."
( http://hardcorezen.info/do-i-need-a-teacher )

After all, http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/practice/zazen/howto/index.html is a fairly simple practice, and you can find several http://antaiji.org/en/dharma/okumura-mind-and-zazen/. If you actually do zazen you can recognise for what role you need a teacher for.

Huineng said:

"If you do not become enlightened by yourself, then you must seek a great spiritual compatriot, someone who understands the Dharma of the Supreme Vehicle, to indicate directly the correct path for you. ... If you can become enlightened yourself, don’t rely on external seeking — don’t think I’m saying you can only attain emancipation through [the help of] a spiritual compatriot other than yourself."
(Platform Sutra, ch2, BDK ed, p 33)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 29th, 2017 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Vasana said:
is it clear if the schools you're talking about are distinguishing between the 'knowing' related to dualistic mind or to the 'knowing' related to non-conceptual, direct cognition? Both might be called 'knowing' but the latter is not a conceptual view.

Astus wrote:
Knowing/awareness 知 is a specific term here, and it is not confused with the conceptual mind.

"The mind of voidness and calm is a spiritual Knowing that never darkens. This calm Knowing of voidness and calm is precisely the mind of voidness and calm that Bodhidharma formerly transmitted. Whether you are deluded or awakened, mind from the outset is spontaneously Knowing. [Knowing] is not produced by conditions, nor does it arise in dependence on sense objects. Even during delusion the depravities are Knowing, but [Knowing] is not the depravities. Even during awakening the divine transformations are Knowing, but Knowing is not the divine transformations. Thus, the one word "Knowing" is the source of all excellence. Because of delusion about this Knowing there arises the characteristic of a self. When one calculates self and mine, love and hatred spontaneously arise. According to the mind of love or hatred, one does good or bad, and, as retribution for this good or bad, is reborn in one of the six rebirth paths, life after life, birth after birth, cyclically, without end."
(Zongmi: Chan Letter, in Zongmi on Chan, p 88)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 29th, 2017 at 7:53 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
One more quote: Zongmi “Even during delusion there is Knowing. Knowing from the outset is non-delusion. Even the arising of thoughts is Knowing, [but] Knowing from the outset is no mindfulness, up to and including: [at the locus wherein] pity, joy, happiness, hatred, love, and dislike [appear] one after the other they are all Knowing. Knowing from the outset is voidness and calm. It is void and calm and yet Knowing. Then you are not confused at all about the mind nature. The above all differs drastically from [the ideas of] the other lineages. ”

Vasana said:
Maybe it would be useful to see what the translation of 'knowing' is in that excerpt since there are definitely nuances related to the knowing capacity of mind in T.B. I don't claim to know much about Zen but I suspect that your interpretation isn't representative of the teachings given the clarifications in this thread on mindfulness/no-mindfulness.

Astus wrote:
Knowing/awareness 知 in the teachings of Shenhui and Zongmi might be equated with terms like rigpa/vidyā and yeshe/jñāna. However, the later tradition (i.e. Patriarchal Zen) was quite critical of that concept.

"Knowing and understanding are the great faults of the Buddhadharma. Heze, who was an illegitimate heir of Caoqi, used them. The Vimalakīrti(nirdeśa) sūtra says, “Remove what it has.” The Lotus Sutra says, “Remove the shit and take the wages.” These are all states of knowing and understanding. For this reason knowing and understanding are obstacles to correct views, like rancid rice offered to starving ghosts, like bad water being used to pollute the field of the mind, which is not as good as looking at Zhaozhou’s character mu."
(Hyujeong: The Greatest Faults in Seon: the Two Characters Knowing and Understanding, in The Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 239-240)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 29th, 2017 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Temicco said:
The translation nuance for that second one is huge, though. Is 念 the word normally used for smrti?

Astus wrote:
Yes, 念 is the word normally used for smṛti. E.g. 正念 saṃyaksmṛti,念佛 buddhānusmṛti, 念安般 ānāpānasmṛti, 四念處 catvārismṛtyupasthānāni. However, that is not the word's exclusive meaning, so it is not that straightforward. Rather, what one should look for is the definition provided in the same text where a term is used.

A recommended reading: http://buddhiststudies.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/sharf/documents/Sharf,%20Mindfulness%20and%20Mindlessness%20in%20Early%20Chan.pdf by Robert Sharf.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, August 28th, 2017 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
No-mindfulness is often spoke of in Chan terms.

Temicco said:
I think you maybe mean "no-mind". Zen is about having no conditioned mind. It does teach mindfulness -- namely, mindfulness of ones nature, stability in unconditioned mind.


Anonymous X said:
I believe Zongmi is one of the worthies that used the term no-mindfulness.

Astus wrote:
no-mind: 無心 (wuxin / mushin)
no-mindfulness (also: no(n)-thought): 無念 (wunian / munen)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, August 27th, 2017 at 4:26 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Sherab said:
As I have mentioned before, it is because you have assumed that dependent arising is identical to temporal causality.

Astus wrote:
There is no atemporal causality, as effect must follow cause. If it is not causality, then there is neither dependence, nor origination. That's why it can only be temporal causality.

Sherab said:
I have explained previously that dependent arising is very broad and can encompass more than mere temporal causality.

Astus wrote:
It wasn't an explanation, it was a simple statement. https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=403789#p403789:

"You have also assumed dependent origination as identical to temporal causality."

That's all.

Sherab said:
When I discuss a subject with others, I make it a point to read and understand what is being said so that I don't waste the other person's time and effort with a reply that is not to point.

Astus wrote:
Very good approach. So are there any arguments aside from the claim that they exist somewhere?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 26th, 2017 at 6:16 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Sherab said:
I repeat, you are stating something that I have addressed early in this discussion.

Astus wrote:
The only place you seem to have addressed this was on https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=401570#p401570. There you state that the ultimate is both functional and impermanent. Such a statement actually turns the ultimate into the relative.

Sherab said:
If you do not address my reasoning or arguments, it is difficult to make headway in the discussion as we are merely talking pass each other.

Astus wrote:
If there are other arguments from you I missed, please quote/link them.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 25th, 2017 at 6:30 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I can tell you that it is not a blank, wordless state. ... Wisdom begins to function without the obstruction of discursive mind.

Astus wrote:
If there is no discursive mind, there are no words, no concepts, no comprehension. How is it not a wordless state then?

Anonymous X said:
It is not that thoughts are bad. It is that they cannot comprehend what is.

Astus wrote:
The whole world is whatever is defined by thoughts, hence terms like vijñaptimātra and nāmamātra. Also consider what mind actually is as defined by the four mental aggregates (vedanā, saṃjñā, saṃskāra, vijñāna), and the five universal mental functions (vedanā, saṃjñā, cetanā, sparśa, manaskāra).

Anonymous X said:
Attachment and identification are absent when you let go of your view, that is if you don't reify another view.

Astus wrote:
Clinging is gone, but the functions are not.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 25th, 2017 at 3:44 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
It always seems to me that trying to talk about the ultimate is sort of a waste of time. What is the point?

Astus wrote:
The ultimate is what one wants to achieve, to understand, to become. An ultimate existence is the false belief in a self, and as such it needs to be clarified and seen through in order to be free from it. The ultimate truth is what liberates from all suffering, and as such it is the final goal of the path. So there are good reasons to talk about the ultimate.

Anonymous X said:
If the point of Nagarjuna is to bring us to the abandonment of all views, is this not the same as the abandonment of discursive thinking?

Astus wrote:
The aim is never a blank, wordless state, but wisdom and clarity. If it were the case that thoughts and concepts are bad and their absence is good, then one could gain liberation just by losing consciousness. But the point is to recognise the nature of thoughts as insubstantial, as empty, thus end attachment and identification.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 25th, 2017 at 3:06 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Sherab said:
That is because you have assumed the ultimate as something permanent and unchanging.

Astus wrote:
Something is either permanent or impermanent. If the proposed ultimate is impermanent, why even call it the ultimate? If you may respond that it is not something, then it is necessarily nothing, in which case it does not exist, hence there is no ultimate at all.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 24th, 2017 at 3:30 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Sherab said:
It still does not mean that there is ultimately no natural state of any sort.

Astus wrote:
That sounds like an argument for an invisible elephant in a room where no elephant is found.

Sherab said:
I was arguing for an ultimate reality which is the source for our illusory relative reality.

Astus wrote:
An ultimate cannot cause a relative thing, first because a cause cannot be ultimate, and second because of different nature (ultimate-relative). There is neither an ultimate basis nor a source in Buddhism, there is only dependent origination.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 23rd, 2017 at 3:06 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Sherab said:
And your point is?

Astus wrote:
It is about what Malcolm mentioned: when there is nothing that ceases, it is not annihilation.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 22nd, 2017 at 5:32 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Malcolm said:
There is "no existence in a cessation of which we can describe its nonexistence" (Sutta Nipatta). Thus there is nothing left over, positive or negative.

Sherab said:
I could not find your quotation in Sutta Nipata.

Astus wrote:
The matter of what happens after death to a liberated one is discussed in several suttas:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.085.than.html, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.086.than.html, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#sn44


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 22nd, 2017 at 3:12 PM
Title: Re: buddhas and sex
Content:
Astus wrote:
One of the 32 major marks is the retracted male organ.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, August 19th, 2017 at 6:56 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Sherab said:
it is unskillful to use words that results in logical contradiction

Astus wrote:
What contradiction?

A passages from Mazu:

"Not obliterating the conditioned; not dwelling in the unconditioned. The conditioned is the function of the unconditioned; the unconditioned is the essence of the conditioned."
(Sun-Face Buddha, p 67)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, August 18th, 2017 at 3:09 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Sherab said:
Are you arguing that the emptiness of emptiness is therefore superfluous, irrelevant or over-reaching in meaning, etc.?

Astus wrote:
There can be over http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Twenty_kinds_of_emptiness, including emptiness of emptiness. The reason behind that is to clarify that there are no exceptions, everything is without an essence, and being without essence is also not an essence. The whole of Buddhadharma is about ending attachment. To posit anything that is ultimately worth being attached to (note: skilful means should be grasped up to a point) goes against the very basics of the Buddha's teaching. So, even the teaching of emptiness is only a means to an end. As the http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html says, "If even my correct teachings are to be abandoned, how much more incorrect teachings?"


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, August 17th, 2017 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Zen
Content:
Sherab said:
When something is dependently arisen, it implies that the something is not unconditioned. If you assert that emptiness is dependent arising or dependent co-arising, and if you also assert that emptiness is empty as well, then you would be implying that emptiness is not unconditioned. Your reply did not address the logical problem raised.

Astus wrote:
Emptiness merely stands for the absence of substance in appearances, that's why the problem raised as a contradiction between conditioned and unconditioned is a non-issue. It is the fact of being conditioned that makes appearances empty, since a substance means not being subject to conditions. Because appearances are conditioned, they are without a substance. That is how dependent origination and emptiness are one and the same. It also explains why there is no ultimate reality, only the ultimate truth that all phenomena are without essence.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, August 16th, 2017 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: Soto Zen Quotes
Content:
CedarTree said:
Seems you haven't been around much!  Hopefully you are a Zen monk these days?

Astus wrote:
"When we fail, it is already progress to understand that we have failed. We train ourselves by making that failure a stepping-stone for a pace forward. The practice of Buddhism is to realize that the present success is the hundred failures of the past. When we understand that, no confusions or disturbances will arise."
(Takashina Rosen: A Tongue-Tip Taste of Zen, in T. Leggett: A First Zen Reader, p 49)

"I wonder why we are always avoiding and running away from the real purpose of life. I think is because of our anticipatory nature, a dream of something else, something better, than what one already is. This dream arises from our attachment to the ego. So we continue to roam about, motivated by our unconscious fixed idea that we dislike ourselves as we are."
(Hogen Yamahata: The Other Shore, p 32)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, August 15th, 2017 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Soto Zen Quotes
Content:
Astus wrote:
“Kind speech” means, when meeting living beings, first of all to feel compassion for them and to offer caring and loving words. Broadly, it is there being no rude or bad words. In secular societies there are polite customs of asking others if they are well. In Buddhism there are the words “Take good care of yourself!” and there is the disciple’s greeting “How are you?” Speaking with the feeling of “compassion for living beings as if they were babies” is kind speech. We should praise those who have virtue and should pity those who lack virtue. Through love of kind speech, kind speech is gradually nurtured. Thus, kind speech which is ordinarily neither recognized nor experienced manifests itself before us. While the present body and life exist we should enjoy kind speech, and we will not regress or deviate through many ages and many lives. Whether in defeating adversaries or in promoting harmony among gentlefolk, kind speech is fundamental. To hear kind speech spoken to us directly makes the face happy and the mind joyful. To hear kind speech indirectly etches an impression in the heart and in the soul. Remember, kind speech arises from a loving mind, and the seed of a loving mind is compassion. We should learn that kind speech has the power to turn around the heavens; it is not merely the praise of ability.
(Dogen: Four Elements of a Bodhisattva’s Social Relations, in SBGZ, vol 3, BDK ed, p 41)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, July 18th, 2017 at 6:28 PM
Title: Re: Reliance on Rites and Rituals
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I take this reference to 'considering as a cause, that which is not a cause' is reference to the idea of a Creator?

Astus wrote:
The cause as
- "to consider Maheśvara, Prajāpati, or any other entity which is not a cause of the world as a cause of the world"
- "to consider the rituals of suicide,— entering into fire or drowning—as a cause of a heavenly rebirth when they do not in fact procure heaven"

So it is both to the idea of a creator, and the idea of certain actions leading to heavenly birth (could add other actions as well, like the heroic actions of a warrior, as taught in SN 42.3-5).

Wayfarer said:
One could easily think that the first 'extreme' is what Buddhists generally do - but one would be mistaken.

Astus wrote:
The reason such an extreme is avoided is that the precepts are not the whole of the path, nor do they bring about liberation on their own. Furthermore, the various elements and stages of the path are understood as only means to an end, not end in themselves, hence there is no precept, practice, or view one should remain bound to, as stated in the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.024.than.html and the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.09.than.html.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 17th, 2017 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: Reliance on Rites and Rituals
Content:
Astus wrote:
"What is adherence to observances and rituals (śīlavrataparāmarśa)? It is the admission, inclination, idea, point of view, opinion of him who considers observances and rituals or the five aggregates of attachment constituting the basis, as being pure, just (or providing deliverance) and leading to emancipation. Its function is to supply a basis for fruitless efforts."
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 13)

"The view which considers as cause that which is not cause, or as the path that which is not the Path, is called śīlavrataparāmarśa: namely, to consider Maheśvara, Prajāpati, or any other entity which is not a cause of the world as a cause of the world; to consider the rituals of suicide,— entering into fire or drowning—as a cause of a heavenly rebirth when they do not in fact procure heaven; or to consider morality and ascetic practices as the only path to deliverance when they are themselves not the only path to deliverance, nor the "knowledges" (jñāna) of the Sāṃṃmkhyas and the Yogins which are not a path to deliverance; and so too the rest."
(Kosha, vol 3, p 778)

"Rules-and-vows clinging is the adherence [to the view that] purification comes through rules and vows, according as it is said: “Herein, what is rules-and-vows clinging? … That purification comes through a rite, that purification comes through a ritual, that purification comes through a rite and ritual: such view as this … such perverse assumption is called rules-and-vows clinging”"
(Visuddhimagga, p 591 / online ATI p 649)

"Any precept & practice life whose essence is training, 
and the holy life whose essence is service: 
This is one extreme. 
Any who say, "There's no harm in sensual desires": 
This, the second extreme."
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.6.08.than.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 17th, 2017 at 6:34 PM
Title: Re: Term in Rinzai Roku
Content:
Astus wrote:
The term lingyin 靈音 seems particular to the Linjilu, so here ling 靈 is a qualifier for yin 音, thus the translation "wondrous voice" (Sasaki) or "miraculous sound" (Watson). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%9D%88 has a good number of meanings, and can be a member of http://www.buddhism-dict.net/ddb//rad-stroke/b9748.html.

From the http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/X69n1322_001#0006b02 (tr Cleary):

In the teaching hall the master said, "The spiritual light ( https://www.buddhistdoor.org/tc/dictionary/details/%E9%9D%88%E5%85%89 ) shines alone, far transcending the senses and their fields; the essential substance is exposed, real and eternal. It is not contained in written words. The nature of mind has no defilement; it is basically perfect and complete in itself. Just get rid of delusive attachments, and merge with realization of thusness."

From Jinul (Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 129):

"When falsity is extinguished, the mind will be numinous and dynamic (靈通); then the effulgence of superpowers will appear in response."

He also quotes Zongmi (p 214):

"When delusion is extinguished, the mind will become numinous and dynamic (靈通) and, in response, will make manifest its function of penetrating illumination."

Another compound often used by Jinul (p 219):

"Since all dharmas are like dreams or conjuring tricks, deluded thoughts are originally calm and the dusty sense-spheres are originally empty. At the point where all dharmas are empty, the numinous awareness is unobscured. That is, this mind of void and calm, numinous awareness (靈知) is your original face"

Now if we turn to Linji, the use of ling 靈 is mainly for the vividness of apparent experiences (tr Sasaki, p 240):

"The three realms do not of themselves proclaim: ‘We are the three realms!’ But you, followers of the Way, right now vividly (目前靈靈) illumining all things and taking the measure of the world, you give the names to the three realms."

(p 273):

"Moreover, names and phrases are not of themselves names and phrases; it is you, who right now radiantly and vividly (目前昭昭靈靈) perceive, know, and clearly illumine [everything]—you it is who affix all names and phrases."

To connect the two meaning of vividness and wondrous, it means the unabiding perception (e.g. of sound 聲, p 227):

"Those are not the six supernatural powers of a buddha, which are entering the world of color yet not being deluded by color; entering the world of sound yet not being deluded by sound; entering the world of odor yet not being deluded by odor; entering the world of taste yet not being deluded by taste; entering the world of touch yet not being deluded by touch; entering the world of dharmas yet not being deluded by dharmas. Therefore, when it is realized that these six—color, sound, odor, taste, touch, and dharmas— are all empty forms, they cannot bind the man of the Way, dependent upon nothing."

And comparing to an echo (p 275):

"When the place of arising or extinguishing of a single thought in your mind is not to be found, as with a sound reverberating throughout space (響應空), and there is nothing anywhere for you to do"

Finally, the original sentence to be considered (p 252):

"if you don’t seek him, then he’s right there before your eyes, his wondrous voice (靈音) resounding in your ears."

We can say that his voice being wondrous stands for hearing without attachment.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 16th, 2017 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Are demons mentioned in Buddhism actually just bad karma?
Content:
pael said:
Events or experiences? Loud sounds disturbs me very much, but everyone I know loves loud sounds. Is this karma or what?

Astus wrote:
Events are experiences. Liking something is taking it as good, disliking something is taking it as bad. That's how one's mental conditioning (karma) defines all perceptions.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, July 7th, 2017 at 6:05 PM
Title: Re: Are demons mentioned in Buddhism actually just bad karma?
Content:
Ervin said:
I was wandering if demons mentioned in Buddhist scriptures are simply the bad karma that we experience?

Astus wrote:
All painful events are products of bad karma, from annoying neighbours to the hell realms.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, July 6th, 2017 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Content:
Matylda said:
Buddha did not teach freedom of religion

Astus wrote:
Did he teach then to restrict the beliefs of other people? Did he establish an authoritative institution to govern religion? Did he advise rulers to support only some but not other religious groups?

Matylda said:
it is recent concept

Astus wrote:
The 12th https://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/ashoka.html#FOURTEEN:

Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, honors both ascetics and the householders of all religions, and he honors them with gifts and honors of various kinds. But Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much as he values this -- that there should be growth in the essentials of all religions. Growth in essentials can be done in different ways, but all of them have as their root restraint in speech, that is, not praising one's own religion, or condemning the religion of others without good cause. And if there is cause for criticism, it should be done in a mild way. But it is better to honor other religions for this reason. By so doing, one's own religion benefits, and so do other religions, while doing otherwise harms one's own religion and the religions of others. Whoever praises his own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others with the thought "Let me glorify my own religion," only harms his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good. One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions.
Those who are content with their own religion should be told this: Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much as he values that there should be growth in the essentials of all religions. And to this end many are working -- Dhamma Mahamatras, Mahamatras in charge of the women's quarters, officers in charge of outlying areas, and other such officers. And the fruit of this is that one's own religion grows and the Dhamma is illuminated also.

Matylda said:
in the context of dharma talking freely nonsense is really bad

Astus wrote:
However, there is no single person or organisation to tell what is nonsense and what is not. Already in India there were 18/20 early schools, and more appeared later and in other countries. If there had been only one group that decided things, likely Mahayana could not have ever emerged, not to mention all the numerous changes and reforms over the centuries.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 5th, 2017 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Content:
Matylda said:
What scary is, is not religious freedom, but freedom to say uneducated folks whatever one thinks and sell it nicely wrapped in ZEN decoration.

Astus wrote:
That is what freedom of religion means.

Matylda said:
zen is simply not represented by Japanese teachers in the West

Astus wrote:
There might be a few Zen groups without direct connection to Japanese teachers, but it seems that the majority of them has Japanese origins. And since most of the teachers were authorised by Japanese ones, the current quality is not some independent event.

Matylda said:
Tibetan tradition is on the contrary represented by many lamas and Rinpoches in the West, so it is much easier to see what is true dharma and what is not.

Astus wrote:
What constitutes true Dharma should not be defined by the person saying it. So perhaps the http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Four_reliances should be one of the first things people learn of Buddhism.

Matylda said:
With zen it simply happens that the education level is simply very low, knowledge is on the verge of ignorance.

Astus wrote:
That is most likely what appeals to many, that in Zen you don't study things, you just sit.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 5th, 2017 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Content:
Matylda said:
Today people can say whatever they like, teach whatever they THINK and call all this junk ZEN. Scary...

Astus wrote:
I don't see how it is scary to have freedom of religion, but you can find most of the traditional state control for instance in China. Otherwise, aside from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Buddhists, weird things might come up as well, like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanghyang_Adi_Buddha. Also, the fusion of various forms of nationalism and Buddhism in Asia is also a product of state control (e.g. http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/BudJapNat.htm, found in https://books.google.com/books?id=0LBhBAAAQBAJ ).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, July 5th, 2017 at 4:05 PM
Title: Re: From Impermanence to Buddhahood
Content:
Strive said:
Can Buddhahood be considered immortality? When I read things like the bliss body or rainbow body that's what it sound like.

Astus wrote:
Normally it is a being that is called immortal, and in that sense nobody of the six realms has a never ending life, eventually even gods die and are born again. On the other hand, samsara has no beginning, nor do beings simply stop being reborn, hence in a way everyone is already immortal. And that sense of immortality is what may give rise to the view of an eternal soul, just as people assume an enduring identity based on the continuity of day to day life. Projecting this very flawed view on buddhas is twice wrong. First because it lacks the understanding of what life is, and second because it lacks understanding of what a buddha is.

The one thing that is called immortal (i.e. deathless - amata; unceased - aniruddha), and that is nirvana. Similarly, it is also called the unborn (ajāta), the unarisen (anutpāda). So Nagarjuna sums it up:

"Not abandoned, not acquired, not annihilated, not eternal,
not ceased, not arisen, thus is nirvāṇa said to be."
(MMK 25.3, tr Siderits)

At the same time, not only nirvana can be described as such, but also the nature of everything as well:

"The nature of things is to be, like nirvāṇa, without origination or cessation."
(MMK 18.7)

That is why

"There is no distinction whatsoever between saṃsāra and nirvāṇa.
There is no distinction whatsoever between nirvāṇa and saṃsāra."
(MMK 25.19)

Hence the nature of the world is no different from the nature of a buddha:

"What is the intrinsic nature of the Tathāgata, that is the intrinsic nature of this world.
The Tathāgata is devoid of intrinsic nature; this world is devoid of intrinsic nature."
(MMK 22.16)

From here when the matter of the rupakaya is looked at, and in particular the unceasing activities of the sambhogakaya, it has to be viewed on the basis that assuming a being, an entity is already a false concept, and a view that buddhas are completely free from.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 3rd, 2017 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Synthetic view of Chan / Zen / Seon
Content:
Astus wrote:
Might start with Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Seon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Zen

Then there is https://books.google.com/books?id=smNM4ElP3XgC.

Finally there is Dumoulin's two-volume work: https://books.google.com/books?id=Y1_YAAAAMAAJ, https://books.google.com/books?id=hfMkpD_Xr3sC. It is somewhat outdated, but nothing similar has been published yet as far as I know.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 3rd, 2017 at 4:36 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Then why do you refer to the quotes instead of your own wisdom?

Astus wrote:
Those are words from canonised texts, thus they are more definitive in Chan then whatever I'd write on my own.

Anonymous X said:
The realization must be your own, happening in your body complex, not a re-ification of another's words.

Astus wrote:
It doesn't matter what my realisation is, since on a forum there are just words.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 3rd, 2017 at 3:16 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Is this really any different from what I've been saying? I agree with all of the above, but don't see any 'path', Buddha, or self-nature.

Astus wrote:
That's the point, it is not a path in the sense of going somewhere stage by stage, but a realisation. Hence I said that its main character is arriving directly at wisdom.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, July 3rd, 2017 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
What is the sudden path? What does that have to do with what is, presently, at any given moment? Isn't any path something you do, engage in? What does that have to do with your present experience of the body?

Astus wrote:
"The self-nature is without error, without stupidity, and without disruption. In moment after moment of thought, prajñā illuminates, constantly transcending the characteristics of dharmas. Independent and autonomous, he apprehends everything—how could there be any positing? The self-nature becomes enlightened itself, sudden enlightenment and sudden cultivation. There is no gradual progression. Therefore, one does not posit all the dharmas. The dharmas are quiescent—how could there be a progression?"
(Platform Sutra, ch 8, BDK ed, p 75)

"If one comprehends the mind and the objects, then false thinking is not created again. When there is no more false thinking, that is acceptance of the non-arising of all dharma. Originally it exists and it is present now, irrespective of cultivation of the Way and sitting in meditation. Not cultivating and not sitting is the Tathagata's pure meditation."
(Record of Mazu, in Sun-Face Buddha, p 68)

Q: What method must be practiced to attain liberation? 
A: Only by practicing the Dharma of Sudden Enlightenment can we attain liberation.
Q: What is Sudden Enlightenment? 
A: "Sudden" means instantly stopping false thought. "Enlightenment" means [awareness] that one attains nothing.
(Dazhu Huihai: http://ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/treatise-entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment )

"Question: What is the essential method for sudden enlightenment in the great vehicle?
The master said,
You all should first put an end to all involvements and lay to rest all concerns; do not remember or recollect anything at all, whether good or bad, mundane or transcendental - do not engage in thoughts. Let go of body and mind, set them free.
With mind like wood or stone, not explaining anything with the mouth, mind not going anywhere, then the mind ground becomes like space, wherein the sun of wisdom naturally appears. It is as though the clouds had opened and the sun emerged."
...
"Question: How can one attain a mind which is like wood or stone in the presence of all situations?
The master said,
All various things have never of themselves spoken of emptiness; nor do they themselves speak of form, and they do not speak of right, wrong, defilement, or purity. Nor is there mind which binds and fetters people; it is just because people themselves give rise to vain and arbitrary attachments and that they create so many kinds of understanding, produce so many kinds of opinion, and give rise to so many various loves and fears.
Just understand that the many things do not originate of themselves; all of them come into existence from one’s own single mental impulse of imagination mistakenly clinging to appearances. If you know that mind and objects fundamentally do not contact each other, you will be set free on the spot. Each of the various things is in a state of quiescence right where it is; this very place is the site of enlightenment."
(Extensive Record of Baizhang, in Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 77-78, 79)

"No-mind refers to the absence of all [states of ] mind. ... This mind is the mind of no-mind. Transcending all characteristics, there is yet no difference between sentient beings and Buddhas. If you can just [attain] no-mind, then that is the ultimate [state of enlightenment]. If a trainee does not instantly [attain] no-mind but spends successive eons in cultivation, he will never achieve enlightenment. He will be fettered by the meritorious practices of the three vehicles and will not attain liberation."
...
"To simply right now suddenly comprehend that one’s own mind is fundamentally Buddha, without there being a single dharma one can attain and without there being a single practice one can cultivate—this is the insurpassable enlightenment, this is the Buddha of suchness."
(Huangbo: Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed., p 15, 16; 20)

"One thought of doubt in your mind is Māra. But if you realize that the ten thousand dharmas never come into being, that mind is like a phantom, that not a speck of dust nor a single thing exists, that there is no place that is not clean and pure—this is Buddha. Thus Buddha and Māra are simply two states, one pure, the other impure.
In my view there is no Buddha, no sentient beings, no past, no present. Anything attained was already attained—no time is needed. There is nothing to practice, nothing to realize, nothing to gain, nothing to lose. Throughout all time there is no other dharma than this. ‘If one claims there’s a dharma surpassing this, I say that it’s like a dream, like a phantasm.’ This is all I have to teach."
(Record of Linji, p 12-13, tr Sasaki)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, July 2nd, 2017 at 5:08 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
It's a lot easier and quicker to simply recognize that all practice is an attempt to change, modify, or become something rather than go through all 'paths' that only lead back to this recognition of deception. Contemplation of this is the only requirement that I can see which can reveal what the 'search' is all about and how it prevents one from being present in the moment.

Astus wrote:
Practice is about learning to let go by comprehending the emptiness of appearances. The sudden path differs from the gradual in that it goes directly to wisdom instead of building up morality and meditation first, and that's how it is less a matter of method and more of individual capacity. As for "being present in the moment", while I don't know what you exactly mean, it doesn't sound like anything but a futile attempt of being somewhere.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 1st, 2017 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
seeker242 said:
However, what about cultivating "the state" that recognise that all states are impermanent and empty? Because the fact that all states are impermanent and empty, is not immediately obvious, if it was then no one would attach to them.

Astus wrote:
First there is the path (prayogamarga & sambharamarga) to gain recognition (darsanamarga), then there is the training to habituate (bhavanamarga) it, eventually arriving at no practice (asaiksamarga). That is called the http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Five_paths. The sudden way is going directly to the realisation of no practice.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 1st, 2017 at 6:03 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So there is 'true serenity'? Or is that also 'no serenity'? It seems whatever one says, there is a quotation that it negates it. Better probably to make no statement, as no statement seems to be a true statement.

Astus wrote:
The point is simply to recognise that all states are impermanent and empty. Thus there is no state to cultivate. That is true serenity.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 1st, 2017 at 5:38 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Practice is remembering what we have forgotten, and we have to practice continuously, but never with the idea of gaining something.

Astus wrote:
Zongmi writes this about the Jingzhong school's main teaching:

"The "three topics" are: "no remembering, no mindfulness, and do not forget." The idea is as follows. Do not recall past sense objects. Do not anticipate glorious events in the future. Constantly be yoked to this wisdom, never darkening, never erring; this is called do not forget. Sometimes [the three topics are]: no remembering external sense objects; no thinking of internal mind, dried up with nothing to rely upon (do not forget as above). "Precepts, concentration, and wisdom" correspond respectively to the three topics."
(Zongmi on Chan, p 181)

Wayfarer said:
Actually there are two meanings to 'right recollection' (smṛti) which in Buddhist terminology is both 'remembering' and 'mindfulness'. The external meaning is recollecting the teachings i.e. being able to recite them.  The inner meaning is 'remembering the True Nature'.  That is more what I was referring to.

Astus wrote:
In Chan "right recollection" (zhengnian 正念) is no recollection (wunian 無念 / asmrti). Being mindful is practice, no-mindfulness is enlightenment.

"To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to arrive at the stage of buddhahood."
(Platform Sutra, ch2, BDK ed, p34; T48n2008, p351b5)

"All [deliberate] activation of cultivation is false activity.
To guard one’s abiding is not true serenity."
(ch7, p61;  p356b21)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 1st, 2017 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Although I have always found that commitment to daily sitting is a basic part of engaging with the dharma, because otherwise I'm just another urban-dweller who thinks about it.

Astus wrote:
"When I was first at the temple, we simply practiced. We worked and prostrated. Every day we chanted and read sutras. We were not told their meaning. It didn’t matter. We simply went through the process. We cut down on our attachment to the things around us, cut down on the things in our heads, cut down on our discriminations. This was a good method for us. However, for modern lay people such training would be inadequate.
Many of my disciples have questioned these methods. With no emphasis on what they think practice is — meditation, prostrations, chanting — they feel that life in the monastery is not particularly different from their lives at home. What’s the point, they say. At home we work, here we work. At home we cook, and we cook here, too. Why did we bother to leave home? Where is the practice?
What would you say to such disciples? Is life at home and life at the monastery the same? Someone just mentioned attitude, and that is entirely correct. The way we approach what we do at the monastery is not quite the same as the way most lay people approach what they have to do."
( http://chancenter.org/cmc/1992/05/31/life-in-a-chan-monastery/ )


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, July 1st, 2017 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I'm interested in the apparent conflict between this statement, and the often-observed practice in Buddhist monasteries, where zazen does indeed comprise long hours of sitting motionless in dhyana, according to many accounts.

Astus wrote:
As it is said in the quote you provided from Buswell, "meditators comprise only a small percentage of the monks", while the majority in Korea are Jogye monastics, a Seon school. It is rather a myth that Chan equals Dhyana just because the words are etymologically related.

Wayfarer said:
Why do you think in some places, the idea of 'sitting motionless' is admonished, but in other places, it seems to be regarded as fundamental to Zen practice?

Astus wrote:
Hardly any classic Zen text talks of sitting meditation. Even Dogen's Shobogenzo is mostly about other topics (see a little calculation https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=202742#p202742 ). As for what is considered the daily routine of a monastery, that is quite a different matter, and it is nothing universal, except perhaps the morning and evening ceremony. In any case, a good number of Zen works are critical of practically every aspect of monastic life, from prostrations to pilgrimages, and seated meditation is just one of the many things one can be overly occupied with. But being critical does not mean rejecting or forbidding, only that none of those constitute the essence of the Buddhadharma.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 30th, 2017 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
tomamundsen said:
So are you effectively saying that Ch'an is entirely a sudden school? And that the "controversy" was more about polemics of accusing other schools as being gradual (inferior)?

Astus wrote:
Yes. Also note that the idea of a sudden teaching is not exclusive to Chan, but applies to Tiantai and Huayan as well.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 29th, 2017 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
Temicco said:
a lack of discussion of post-awakening practice in Tang dynasty Zen texts associated with Huineng's line, as well as in most gongan collections.

Astus wrote:
There is no post-awakening practice aside from the practice of awakening itself. This is clarified by Jinul, a known advocate of "sudden enlightenment, gradual cultivation" very well:

"Nevertheless, although you must cultivate further, you have already awakened suddenly to the fact that deluded thoughts are originally void and the mind-nature is originally pure. Thus you eradicate evil, but you eradicate it without actually eradicating anything; you cultivate the wholesome, but you cultivate it without actually cultivating anything. This is true cultivation and true eradication."
(Moguja’s Secrets on Cultivating the Mind, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 2, p 226-227)

"One has the sudden awakening to the fact that one’s nature is originally free of affliction and that one is originally in full possession of the uncontaminated (anāsrava) wisdom-nature that is no different from that of the buddhas. To cultivate while relying on this [awakening] is called Supreme-Vehicle Seon; it is also called the pure Seon of the tathāgatas. If thought-moment after thought-moment one continues to develop one’s training, then naturally one will gradually attain to hundreds of thousands of samādhis."
(p 227)

"Some people do not realize that the nature of merit and demerit is empty; they sit rigidly without moving and suppress both body and mind, like a rock crushing grass. To regard this as cultivation of the mind is a great delusion."
(p 228)

"If you claim, “Initially control conditioned thought with calmness and subsequently control dullness with alertness; these initial and subsequent counteractive techniques subdue both dullness and agitation and one thereby will access quiescence”: this is [samādhi and prajñā] as practiced by those of inferior faculties in the gradual school. Although [this approach also] claims that alertness and calmness should be maintained equally, it cannot avoid clinging to stillness as its practice."
(p 230-231)

"In the case of an accomplished person, the meaning of maintaining samādhi and prajñā equally does not involve any specific activity, for he is inherently spontaneous and unconcerned about place or time."
(p 231)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 29th, 2017 at 6:37 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Buddhahood?
Content:
tomamundsen said:
I am vaguely aware of a controversy between sudden and gradual approaches in Ch'an.

Astus wrote:
There wasn't really such a controversy, it was something made up initially by Shenhui to criticise Shenxiu's descendants. But that's like charging Buddhists with idolatry.

tomamundsen said:
At any point, did Ch'an masters advocate for sudden enlightenment being perfect Buddhahood? Or is it simply kensho?

Astus wrote:
First of all, "kensho" means "seeing nature" and seeing nature is becoming buddha, even if some teachers have altered the meaning and came up with this distinction of "kensho" and "satori", the classic doctrine is as it's been stated from the beginning. As it's in the "Bloodstream Sermon" of Bodhidharma (tr Red Pine): "To find a Buddha, you have to see your nature. Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha." (X63n1218, p2b19) "To find a Buddha all you have to do is see your nature. Your nature is the Buddha." (p2c3-4) "Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha; whoever doesn’t is a mortal." (p2c19)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 28th, 2017 at 7:43 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
White Lotus said:
Is a Buddha empty? Or is a Buddha independent and unconditioned. If so, how?

Astus wrote:
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?" "No, lord." "Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?" "No, lord."
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?" "No, lord."
"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?" "No, lord." "Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?" "No, lord."
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.002.than.html )

"The Tathāgata is neither identical with the skandhas nor distinct from the skandhas; the skandhas are not in him nor is he in them; 
he does not exist possessing the skandhas. What Tathāgata, then, is there?"
...
"But one who has taken up a mass of beliefs, such as that the Tathāgata exists,
so conceptualizing, that person will also imagine that [the Tathāgata] does not exist when extinguished.
And the thought does not hold, with reference to this (Tathāgata) who is intrinsically empty,
that the Buddha either exists or does not exist after cessation.
Those who hypostatize the Buddha, who is beyond hypostatization and unwavering,
they all, deceived by hypostatization, fail to see the Tathāgata.
What is the intrinsic nature of the Tathāgata, that is the intrinsic nature of this world.
The Tathāgata is devoid of intrinsic nature; this world is devoid of intrinsic nature."
(MKK 22.1, 13-16, tr Siderits)

"The notion of person, the notion of sentient being, and the notion of life span are also not notions. And why? Those who are free from all notions are called buddhas."
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 14)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 25th, 2017 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Do we have free will?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Could you expand on what 'other-doer' refers to?

Astus wrote:
It's just "others", everyone else, other beings, other people. There's also an analysis of the sutta by Piya Tan http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/7.6-Attakari-S-a6.38-piya.pdf.

Wayfarer said:
I think the parallel view in Buddhism would be the idea that 'all human actions are bound by karma, nobody can act in any way other than what their karma dictates.' And that is not what Buddhism teaches, obviously, because if it were true, then there would be no point in teaching!

Astus wrote:
It is a difference made between old and new karma, i.e. past acts and present acts (see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html ). On a conventional level there is agency, there is intention. But when analysed, it's all empty (no doer) and dependently arisen (causally bound). Where this topic of "free will" actually comes up is how karma is interpreted in Buddhism and by others, and that shows that the moral responsibility lies with the individual being according to Shakyamuni, while other theories (see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html ) deny that.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 23rd, 2017 at 7:05 PM
Title: Re: Do we have free will?
Content:
Astus wrote:
"I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’?"
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 22nd, 2017 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Is the "Self" a "Rabbit's Horn"?
Content:
Astus wrote:
“In that case, what is the root of bondage?” asked Drom.
Atisa: “It is the grasping at self.”
“What is this grasping at self?” enquired Drom.
“This is something that wants all positive qualities for oneself alone and wants others alone to take on all misfortunes.”
“Then please explain this in such a manner so you can say ‘This is selfgrasping,’” asked Drom.
Atisa replied: “Where would one find something of which it could be said that ‘This is the reified self-grasping?” ’
“In that case, please explain to me how it is that [this self-grasping] wants everything and transfers [all] blames onto others.”
Atisa replied, “Upasaka, why even ask me? This is pervasive in sentient beings. You know this, so what need is there to ask? Even so, I have also seen attachment and aversion labeled as self-grasping.”
“Atisa, there are people who possess such forms of grasping?”
“Where do they exist?” responded Atisa.
“They are [within] our own mental continuum,” replied [Drom].
“Upasaka, what is one’s own mental continuum?”
“ It is that which wants everything and grasps [at it all]replied Drom.
Atisa: “ I, too, would say the same.”
“Where does this self-grasping reside?” inquired Drom.
“It is devoid of parts, and I have never seen it myself. There is nothing that abides where there is nowhere to abide. I do not know the colors and shapes of something with no reality,” replied [Atisa].
Drom then asked, “ If this is so, how can something so feeble exist?”
Atisa responded, “Can’t one perceive mirage water, a double moon, dream horses and elephants, and so on?”
“Master, these are delusions.”
Atisa said, “I accept this to be so. It is not that he, self-grasping, indulges in attachment and aversion on the basis of being existent. Dogs bark in the wilderness because of an empty container, and our mindstream is greatly perturbed with no ground [at all].”

(The Jewel Garland of Dialogues, ch 6, in The Book of Kadam, p 121-122)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 20th, 2017 at 4:55 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Supramundane said:
but we have no choice but to have a consciousness

Astus wrote:
What is that consciousness? Certainly nothing independent or unconditioned (see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html ), consequently it is impermanent, unsatisfactory, impersonal, and empty.

Supramundane said:
the buddha was very clear that Nirvana is not nihilism nor is it a heaven.

Astus wrote:
See this from Nagarjuna ( http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/Ratna_excerpts/Ratna_X-20_X-01.pdf, v43-45):

"Were one to provide a summary description of “wrong view,”
One would refer to “dismissing cause-and-effect as non-existent.”
This causes one to become filled with non-meritorious karma
And is the weightiest cause for entering the wretched destinies.

Were one to provide a summary description of “right view,”
One would refer to “believing in the existence of cause-and-effect.”
This is able to cause one to gain a full measure of merit
And is the most superior cause for rebirth in the good destinies.

Through wisdom, “existence” versus “non-existence” is stilled,
One steps beyond [ideas about] “merit” versus “non-merit,”
And one transcends [concern over] “good” versus “bad” destinies.
The Buddha described this as tantamount to gaining liberation."

That is how nirvana is neither existence nor non-existence. Furthermore ( http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/Ratna_excerpts/Ratna_X-20_X-02.pdf, v 58-60):

"Disinclination to seize on [views asserting] existence or non-existence
Originates with discernment of the meaning of reality.
If [one claims this entails] falling into a “non-existence” attachment,
Why not [also] claim this entails falling into “existence” attachment?

If one claims that, by refuting [views validating] “existence,”
One falls by force of logic into implicitly validating “non-existence,”
Then, following this same logic, by refuting “non-existence,”
Why wouldn’t one fall into implicitly validating “existence”?

This non-validation of words, actions, or thoughts [as ultimately real]
Is a result of reliance on bodhi.
If one claims this entails an implicit fall into validating non-existence,
Why would that not also entail a fall into validating existence?"

That is how both extremes are averted and there is no falling into "nihilism".

Supramundane said:
if it is a state then one would suppose that such state would end upon our deaths but in fact if Nirvana is 'the deathless door', then i assume it would continue even after the death of our earthly bodies. am i right?

Astus wrote:
All states are conditioned, therefore unstable, unreliable, and illusory. Nirvana is seeing the various states of consciousness for what they are and so not making up any attachment to them. Also, the idea that one's existence ceases at death is what is called the wrong view of annihilationism (or as somewhat erroneously simplified: "nihilism"), while the idea that one has a non-ceasing existence is the view of eternalism or permanence.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 20th, 2017 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Supramundane said:
But what is Nirvana? Is it nothingness or is it eternal life of some non-self consciousness? Or non-dualist consciousness?

Astus wrote:
Trying to establish oneself in some form of consciousness is the root of suffering. Nirvana is relinquishing all that clinging.

"Not even “non-existence” qualifies as nirvāṇa.
How much the less might “existence” qualify as such?
The complete end of attachments to existence or non-existence—
The Buddha described this as essential to nirvāṇa."
( http://kalavinka.org/Jewels/book_excerpts/Ratna_excerpts/Ratna_X-20_X-01.pdf, v 42, tr Dharmamitra)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 16th, 2017 at 5:07 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Madhyamaka is not a path. If you want a path, look at Mahāyāna.

Astus wrote:
Then call it a method, doctrine, system, teaching, school, tradition, etc. The question is whether Madhyamaka (and Yogacara perhaps) is taken as a theoretical basis, or something that has extensive role in how the bodhisattvayana is applied, particularly in the area of prajnaparamita. Reducing Madhyamaka (and probably the whole of sutrayana) into a mere theoretical background may be fine from a Vajrayana perspective, but the way its own authors seem to have thought of it is quite different.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 16th, 2017 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Madhyamaka is just a means of enforcing correct view.

Astus wrote:
Do you not consider it a valid path for non-conceptual wisdom?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 16th, 2017 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Madhyamaka does not establish a basis, a path, and result. No one said they did. They accept the basis, path, and result put forward by general Mahāyāna, as witnessed by the Madhyamaka commentaries (by Vimuktisena, Haribhadra, etc.) on the Abhisamayālaṃkara. You were the one who claimed that Madhyamaka was a complete and independent teaching, not me.

Astus wrote:
I wrote that Madhyamaka is a complete teaching, and not something that is meant simply to be used as a correction for other systems. But if it were used as an arbiter over others, then their methods would suffer from it. And before calling it a complete teaching, I also noted that it is not a doctrine establishing things on its own but relying on others, as a response to you stating that Madhyamaka not only negates but enforces rationality. So now when you write that they accept what others put forward, that is exactly what I meant by building on others, and not rationalising others.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 16th, 2017 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Zongmi states:

Astus wrote:
That is Zongmi's take on the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogachara#The_Three_Natures, not a teaching on tathagatagarbha.

Anonymous X said:
To my mind, you must add in to the Madhyamaka equation the truth of the Tathagatagarbha to complete the picture.

Astus wrote:
Can you define what the tathagatagarbha is and why it would need to be added?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 16th, 2017 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
This passage does not negate the convention of going. It only negates the motion of nondependent entities.

Astus wrote:
As the Madhyamaka convention goes, conventions are not debated. But once conventions are analysed, there is nothing left to posit or rely on. That's why establishing things like basis, path, and result are not the Madhyamaka method.

By the way, a "dependent entity" (unreal goer) doesn't make more sense than an independent one (real goer).

"Given the nonexistence of intrinsic nature, how will there be extrinsic nature (parabhāva)?
For extrinsic nature is said to be the intrinsic nature of another existent (parabhāva)."
(MMK 15.3, tr Siderits)

"Moreover that on which he depends does not exist by virtue of intrinsic nature.
And how can what does not exist intrinsically exist extrinsically?"
(MMK 22.9)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 15th, 2017 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Madhyamaka is strictly a critical school, and does not offer basis, path, and result that is in anyway distinct from Yogacāra.
The role of Madhyamaka is to make sure that Buddhist assertions remain in line with the Buddha's teaching of emptiness and dependent origination — that's all.

Astus wrote:
If one should apply the reasoning provided in Madhyamaka to all doctrines, there can be neither basis nor path, much less anything to attain as a result.

"One who is a real goer does not perform a going of any of the three kinds.
Neither does one who is not a real goer perform a going of any of the three kinds.
One who is a both-real-and-unreal goer does not perform a going of any of the three kinds.
Thus there is no going, no goer, and no destination."
(MMK 2.24-25, tr Siderits)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Madhyamaka is charged with making sure it all makes sense.

Astus wrote:
How so? Madhyamaka is a complete teaching as it is, so are others as well. Even in a several vehicles setting, as in Tibetan Buddhism, Madhyamaka is used separately, not as a correction. So, I'm not sure what you're referring to here.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
It enforces rationality with respect to conventional truth through the negation of essences.

Astus wrote:
That is a very good point.

On the other hand, every Buddhist tradition seems to attempt to build a rational system, beginning with Abhidharma. And compared to others, Madhyamaka does not build much, but rather relies on what others have already set up.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
No, it clearly states that milk does not become butter, but there can be no butter in absence of milk: enforcing two things, homogeneity of causes and effects (i.e., butter will not come from water) and avoiding the identity issue I mentioned above.

Astus wrote:
Yes, milk cannot become curd, nor can there be curd from something other than curd.

"If alteration pertained to it, then milk itself would be curds.
On the alternative, what else but milk would come to have the nature of curds?"
(MMK 13.6, tr Siderits)

So, according to Buddhapalita (tr Saito, p 183, 184), the two options mean that

1. "If a thing itself were thought to alter, in that case, according to you, milk itself would necessarily be curd."
2. "If you do not say that because "curd" belongs to milk, milk itself is curd, what other than milk can be "curd"? Do you say that curd itself can be "curd" and is curd itself, or do you say that water can be "curd" and water is curd? Therefore, neither a thing itself nor another thing can alter. Because neither a thing nor another thing can alter, there is consequently no "alteration"."

Since curd cannot come from milk, nor from something else, alteration is impossible. It does not give a third option of how there can be curd.

Mabja Changchub comments:

"Change is something that, without analysis, is merely apparent to what the opponent accepts as being direct perception. When the reality of the situation is investigated, however, change is seen to be impossible."
...
"Similarly, if the earlier situation were itself what changed, it would mean that milk could become yogurt while still remaining milk. On the other hand, if it were something other than the initial situation that undergoes change, it would be something other than milk, such as water, that turns into yoghurt. This, however, is impossible. Discussing this point, the Noble Sūtra of the Source of Jewels states:
No phenomenon arises or disintegrates;
There is no death, no transference, and no aging.
This is what the Lion of Men has taught,
And in this he has established hundreds of beings."

Malcolm said:
Madhyamaka is not just a simple refutation of entities, as you seem to think.

Astus wrote:
What more is there to it?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
if you consider karma a convention, it does not really matter which convention you choose to use as long as it is rational, and functions conventionally. If we call karma a debt, it is just fine.

Astus wrote:
I do not disagree with that. The only contention that there was was about whether using the debt metaphor and the unperishing dharma as a Madhyamaka version should be acceptable. Otherwise, as long as the basic functions of karma remain intact, any explanation can work, just as you say.

Malcolm said:
MIlk and curd location is MMK 13:6
The only rational way to understand this section is to understand that causes and their effects are neither the same nor are they different. It is more fully explained by Buddhapalita than Candrakīrti.

Astus wrote:
"Therefore, neither a thing itself nor another thing can alter. Because neither a thing nor another thing can alter, there is consequently no "alteration"."
(Buddhapalita: MMK-vrtti 13.6, tr Saito, p 184)

I'm not sure if this is the right example for "causes are neither the same as nor different than their effects, taking care of both the identity and difference issues with one stone, and avoiding the issue of temporal simultaneity and discontinuity". Rather, as it says in the commentary, the idea of something becoming another thing is mistaken, because there is no thing in the first place.

As for causes and effects:

"Since things devoid of intrinsic nature are not existent,
“This existing, that comes to be” can never hold."
(MMK 1.10, tr Siderits)

"Since origination, duration, and cessation are not established, there is nothing that is conditioned.
And in the absence of the establishment of the conditioned, what unconditioned thing will be established?
Like an illusion, like a dream, like the city of the gandharvas,
so origination, duration, and cessation are declared to be."
(MMK 7.33-34, tr Siderits)

"Effect and cause, as well as the characterized and the characteristic,
feeling and that which feels, and whatever other things there are,
Not only is there no prior part of saṃsāra,
there is as well no prior part of any existents."
(MMK 11.7-8, tr Siderits)

So about karma:

"Defilements, actions, and bodies, agents, and fruits,
are similar to the city of the gandharvas; they are like a mirage, a dream."
(MMK 17.33, tr Siderits)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
all that remains is the idea that I owe you some money.

Astus wrote:
What holds the idea of a karmic debt then?

Malcolm said:
With the example of milk and butter.

Astus wrote:
Could you please be more specific about the location of that section?

Malcolm said:
Yes, like a debt collector calling in a note.

Astus wrote:
What/Who is karma's debt collector?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Yes, like a debt.

Astus wrote:
The problem with the position mentioned in the MMK and by others is the idea that there needs to be a connection between action and fruit, as it's based on a substantialist approach, something that Madhyamaka does not need to posit. A debt is something that stays around until it is repaid, so it is conceived as an enduring entity. But I think the alayavijnana is still a better concept for conventional use than an unperishing thing.

Malcolm said:
He also proposes a solution: causes are neither the same as nor different than their effects, taking care of both the identity and difference issues with one stone, and avoiding the issue of temporal simultaneity and discontinuity.

Astus wrote:
Where is that proposed by him? As for the simple approach:

"Sometimes, a long period of time elapses after the action has ceased, but no matter—know that its fully ripened result will most certainly arise, and there is absolutely nothing contradictory about its doing so."
(Mikyo Dorje, in The Moon of Wisdom, p 111)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 7:22 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Supramundane said:
So there is a True Mind? How do we access it then?

Astus wrote:
There is a very simple and practical instruction:

"When you are aware that all characteristics are void, it is true mind, no mindfulness. If a thought arises, be aware of it; once you are aware of it, it will disappear. The excellent gate of practice lies here alone. Therefore, even though you fully cultivate all the practices, just take no mindfulness as the axiom. If you just get the mind of no mindfulness, then love and hatred will spontaneously become pale and faint, compassion and wisdom [prajna] will spontaneously increase in brightness, sinful karma will spontaneously be eliminated, and you will spontaneously be zealous in meritorious practices."
(Chan Letter, in Zongmi on Chan, p 88)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 4:45 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
I can't see how that helps your point it only appears to hurt it.

Astus wrote:
Candrakirti lists four different ways others tried to solve the problem of connecting a ceased cause with a later arising effect. Among those ways he lists the concept of the unperishing dharma exemplified by the debt-contract. Then he offers the Madhyamika solution that since there has never been an arisen cause there cannot be a ceased cause either.

Because the difficulty with karma comes from connecting cause and effect, what is behind that problem is the concept of a cause that was annihilated, in other words, one of the extreme views. Recognising that there is no such thing as a cause that could cease to exist, the problem of connecting separate things turns out to be false. Then if it's asked how can there still be cause and effect, the answer is that it's a mere nominal appearance, an illusion, just like with everything else.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
But then his note to 17.13-14 includes ideas from the Akutobhaya and Chandrakirti which appear to support those stanzas.

Astus wrote:
They are explaining the points presented by the opponent, not supporting them. Candrakirti also brings up the matter in Madhyamakavatara-bhasya 6.39 (tr Tsultrim & Jampa):

"In the case of some [systems], in answer to the dispute stating, “the action is ceased; how would the effect arise from that action that has already ceased?” – in order to present the capability of an action that already ceased [they] imagine
1. a consciousness-basis-of-all (alaya vijñana), or
2. another feature like a debt-contract, not not wasting, or
3. acquisition, or
4. a continuum of consciousness that is stained by imprints of actions.
In the case of that [system] in which an action is not produced by its own essential nature (i.e., the Prasangika), ceasing that [action] does not [inherently] exist and nor is it impossible for the effect to arise from the non-disintegrated. Hence, actions not disintegrating, the relationship of actions and effects, becomes very extremely admissible."


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
So, what kind of a consciousness does a fetus experience in absence of sense inputs prior to the formation of the six sense organs and contact?

Astus wrote:
The mind can function just fine without input from the five bodily senses, like during sleep. As for the experiences of the fetus, the Garbhāvakrāntisūtra looks like the one giving the most detailed account. As it is summarised in http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~ckeng/doc/Kritzer_Reading_3.pdf:

"First of all, the sūtra, in its description of each of the first four weeks, stresses the suffering of the embryo, which is said to lie in filth, like a lump. The sense organs and consciousness are all in the same place, as if in a pot, and the embryo is very hot and in great pain."

Apparently there is a whole book dedicated to the matter as well - https://books.google.hu/books?id=6zUlDwAAQBAJ

Malcolm said:
You are basically advocating for a Cartesian substance dualism, Astus. It is a very problematical view, apart from your dogmatic and unreasonable rejection of ālayavijñāna.

Astus wrote:
I have not advocated any sort of dualism, merely questioned the assumption that somehow consciousness requires a physical basis. As for the issue of alayavijnana, I do not reject it as a convenient and provisional teaching that can be used to some extent. What I have an issue with is that the alayavijnana does not really solve the problems it is claimed to fix in terms of presenting a logical foundation for the continuity of being, while at the same time it is not even necessarily the only way to tackle the difficulty of comprehending karma.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
according to that translator there is no doubt that 17.13-14 is Nagarjuna's response to an opponent's critique in 17.12.

Astus wrote:
Where does Siderits write that?

In the intro to ch 17 he writes: "The following thirteen verses give solutions proposed by different schools. Then beginning in verse 21 Nāgārjuna subjects these to his own critical examination."

For v 12: "The objection in verse 12 is said to come not from Nāgārjuna but from another opponent."

And for v 20: "This opponent claims his is the orthodox Buddhist view."

Then introduces v 21: "At this point we are to imagine Nāgārjuna entering the discussion. The Ābhidharmika opponents have given their different accounts of the relation between action and fruit. These accounts presuppose the real existence of action and fruit and some sort of real connection between them. Nāgārjuna retorts that no action is to be found."


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Just because some traditional scholars have not understood the point Nāgārjuna was making

Astus wrote:
Rather, there is no classical commentary that supports that interpretation. But let me quote a study's commentary on 17.13:

"Having refuted the santāna -theory, it is stated in Mmk 17.13 that the proper explanation will now be given. This is the explanation, which was taught by the buddhas, pratyekabuddhas and śrāvakas . None of the commentaries comments on this verse. However, it seems that it may be interpreted in at least two ways. First, it could be presumed that this verse is spoken by the opponent, i.e. the avipraṇāśa - proponent, who is probably a Sāṃmatīya as stated above. This is how the verse is interpreted by all the commentaries, because all the commentaries introduce Mmk 17.21 as a refutation of the preceding verses presenting the avipraṇāśa -view. In that case, it may be asked why the opponent needs to refer to the buddhas, pratyekabuddha s and śrāvakas when introducing his view. A reasonable explanation would be that he makes this reference to lend authority to his view, since he could not allow himself simply to take it for granted that the reader knew this view to be taught in the sūtras . In other words, the opponent’s reference to scriptural authority (āgama ) could indicate that his view was not commonly accepted. This would also be supported by the extreme lack of sources describing this view, which will be discussed below.
Secondly, it could be presumed that this verse is not spoken by an opponent but by Nāgārjuna himself.375 Such an interpretation could be supported by the usage of the first person in this verse, but this is not supported by the commentaries. The verse-structure in the remainding part of the chapter does not necessarily imply a refutation of the avipraṇāśa -view as it is interpreted by the commentaries. Verses Mmk 17.13-20 merely present the avipraṇāśa -concept in general terms. Mmk 17.21 onwards show that actions can be non-perishing only if they are unarisen. It is thus possible to read the latter part of the chapter in such a way that the avipraṇāśa -view is not rejected but merely (re)interpreted in a way, which agrees with the Madhyamaka-view. In that case, the reference to the buddhas, pratyekabuddhas and śrāvakas in the present verse (Mmk 17.13) would merely serve to alert the reader that the author now is going to present his own view. However, such an interpretation is quite conjectural. It is very difficult to interpret the verses of Mmk as to who says what and perhaps it is also of little consequence. It may be established as a fact that all the commentaries imply verses Mmk 17.13-20 to be spoken by an opponent and this was the interpretation, which became important for the ensuing textual tradition."
(Ulrich T. Kragh: https://www.academia.edu/3243408/2003_PhD_DISSERTATION_Karmaphalasambandha_in_verses_17.1_20_of_Candrak%C4%ABrtis_Prasannapad%C4%81, p 222-223)

Malcolm said:
Since the mental organ is not physical, how is it influenced by fetal development in any way?
I guess you refuse to answer the question, since you cannot.

Astus wrote:
The question seems to be based on the assumption that the mind is produced by the body, so it should be influenced/defined by fetal development. But if it is not based on the body, then the question makes no sense.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
It is not an eternalist view. The avipranashas do not survive death. They are therefore not permanent. They "imperishable" only in the sense that while one is alive that "debt" remains current.

Astus wrote:
There is actually one such unperishable dharma that carries over karma to the next life.

"At the moment of rebirth there occurs a single [unperishing] 
with respect to all actions of the same sphere, both dissimilar and similar."
(MMK 17.17, tr Siderits)

It explains in the preceding verse the reason for maintaining one such dharma:

"If it were to be relinquished by abandonment or by transference of the action,
various difficulties would result, including the disappearance of the [past] action."
(MMK 17.16)

And, if as you say, the Vaibhasika idea is something Nagarjuna agrees with, why then follow it up with a refutation of those ideas and replacing the unperishing dharma with showing that action is unperishing because it has not arisen in the first place?

"Why is an action not arisen? Because it is without intrinsic nature.
And since it is unarisen, it does not perish."
(MMK 17.21)

Malcolm said:
Because in a fetus there is no differentiation of sense perception and there can be no consciousness according to you because even the mental organ requires a mental object, otherwise it does not exist. Since a fetus prior to the six sense organ stage and contact stage (19 weeks) has no sense organs and cannot perceive anything, is it merely a lump of flesh or is it sentient?

Astus wrote:
Since the mental organ is not physical, how is it influenced by fetal development in any way?

Malcolm said:
The latter.

Astus wrote:
See https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=132789#p132789. In brief, the seeds are latent, so if they were perceived, they would not be latent any more.

Malcolm said:
I mean the sixth consciousness.

Astus wrote:
The object of the mental consciousness are mental phenomena, i.e. thoughts. How is that related to fetal status?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 5:15 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I don't think you can separate consciousness from its object. Analysis cannot solve the problem you put forth. This is all about the 'substance'. Gold is the substance, all modifications are the ring, characteristics. The nature axiom takes substance as existent, Gold. Negation can never come to this understanding. This is a big distinction between the Tathagatagarbha sutras and Madyhamaka. Voidness talks about extremes, what things aren't. The 'nature axiom' talks about substance, what things actually are. For myself, Zongmi clearly explains all of this using the sutras to seal it.

Astus wrote:
Zongmi may sound very positive, but then it is taking "knowing" to be some special substance. However, that's not different from calling emptiness the self-nature of phenomena. If we care to investigate this "knowing" a bit deeper, here are Zongmi's words:

"Knowing is no mindfulness and no form. Who is characterized as self, and who is characterized as other? When you are aware that all characteristics are void, it is true mind, no mindfulness. ... With respect to understanding, it is to see that all characteristics are non-characteristics. With respect to practice, it is called the practice of nonpractice. When the depravities are exhausted, the rebirth process will cease; once arising and disappearing has extinguished, calmness and illumination will become manifest, and responsive functions will be without limit. It is called becoming a buddha."
(Chan Letter, in Zongmi on Chan, p 88)

Is there a special "knowing" to be found? No, it is just realising appearances to be empty and signless, and that is what is called the actual "knowing", and that is why it is buddha-nature. The difference Zongmi emphasises between his version and the Chan of other lineages is that Zongmi not only talks about the empty part but also the aware aspect, as illustrated in his jewel metaphor.

"When one truly sees the color black, the black from the outset is not black. It is just the brightness. The blue from the outset is not blue. It is just the brightness, up to and including: all the [other colors], such as red, white, yellow, etc., are like this. They are just the brightness. If, at the locus of the color characteristics, one after the other you just see the perfect brightness of jade-like sparkling purity, then you are not confused about the jewel."
(Chan Letter, in Zongmi on Chan, p 92)

And further specifies regarding the expression of "the Knowing of voidness and calm":

""Voidness" means to empty out all characteristics; it is still a negative term. Just "calm" is the immutable principle of the real nature; it is not the same as voidness and nonexistence. Knowing is the principle of revealing the thing-in-itself; it is not the same as discrimination. Just this is the original substance of the true mind."
(Chan Letter, in Zongmi on Chan, p 94)

In the end, what all this talk of knowing and buddha-nature is about is to highlight that the goal is not insentience and unconsciousness, but functional wisdom that does not separate itself from appearances.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
He states that he accepts it provisionally.

Astus wrote:
May interpret it so if you read the opponent's position as if it were Nagarjuna's. But then similarly other sections could be read like that as well. Furthermore, Nagarjuna accepting such an eternalist view seems more contradictory than Tsongkhapa's idea of disintegratedness (zhig pa).

Malcolm said:
So the fetus is just an inert lump of matter until stage of six sense organs? Then how does it become conscious at all?

Astus wrote:
Consciousness is not the product of physical development, so why would being a fetus matter?

Malcolm said:
Evidence of this unsubstantiated claim?

Astus wrote:
Evidence of what part? That the alayavijnana is momentary, or that no being can be aware of alayavijnana?

Malcolm said:
So what is the object of the manas in the womb? If it has none, you have again removed your own objection to ālayavijñāna. If it has one, what is it?

Astus wrote:
Do you mean the seventh consciousness by manas?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
in the same way that debt, though not tangible, doesn't vanish until it is either paid off or forgiven.

Astus wrote:
That is the example given in 17.14, My question is, what is your reason to say that it is proposed there as a theory acceptable by Nagarjuna?

Malcolm said:
What is the object of consciousness during gestation prior to the appearance of the six sense organs?

Astus wrote:
How could there be a consciousness without anything that it is conscious of?

Malcolm said:
If you answer it has none, then you have also removed your own objection to ālayavijñāna.

Astus wrote:
No, because the problems are that it is claimed to be a consciousness that no being can ever be aware of, and that it is proposed to solve the problem of continuity when actually it is itself only momentary.

Malcolm said:
If you answer that it has one, then what is the object and what is the sense organ?

Astus wrote:
The set of manovijnana-dharma-dharmadhatu is not material to require a physical organ.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The ālayavijñāna is called the appropriating consciousness with respect to its role in rebirth. It is synonymous with citta.

Astus wrote:
How does that answer the problems with it?

Malcolm said:
Either there are slight errors in the translations, or the authors themselves have erred.
It is very clear that Nāgārjuna finds the concept of karma being like a debt reasonable.

Astus wrote:
Putting aside then the commentators and the tradition, why do you say it is reasonable to think that Nagarjuna finds it acceptable that there can be such a thing as a non-disappearing dharma?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The ālayavijñāna is nothing other than the vijñāna skandha.

Astus wrote:
"What is the characteristic of consciousness? Knowing is the characteristic of consciousness."
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, I.1, p 4)

"What is consciousness? It is awareness of an object."
(Pancaskandhaprakarana, in Inner Science of Buddhists Practice, p 239)

This is held true for the six active consciousnesses, not the other two (i.e. they are not actually aware). The role of manas and citta is to maintain the continuity of afflictions when the six active consciousnesses cease. While the extra parts are said to serve as a bridge, it is also maintained that the seeds, just as the storehouse, are momentary. So, if there is no problem with the alayavijnana ceasing every moment, why is it a problem with the six active consciousnesses? And because the alayavijnana is unconscious and momentary, the very theory of it is problematic and redundant.

Malcolm said:
Yes, he most certainly does accept this theory of karma, and states quite clearly he likes it the best out of all the Hinayāna options, before moving onto a deconstruction of karma framed in ultimate terms.

Astus wrote:
I guess you're referring to 17.13 (tr. Siderits): "I, however, shall here propose the following hypothesis that is suitable and that has been expounded by buddhas, pratyekabuddhas, and śrāvakas."

The commentaries of Kumarajiva, Mabja Jangchub, and Tsongkhapa attribute that part to an opponent, not Nagarjuna's own view or anything he accepts, but rather something that he refutes.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 11th, 2017 at 6:50 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
The supposition of everything is purely theoretical. When is the last time you perceived your mental consciousness? Your statements amount to "I did not see it, so it does not exist."

Astus wrote:
Thoughts are apparent, just as the five other types of objects of consciousness. The alayavijnana, even though it is called a consciousness with innumerable seeds as its objects, there is nobody who can be aware of those seeds, so it is a consciousness without consciousness.

Malcolm said:
The seeds are inferable, and inference is a valid basis of knowledge in Buddhadharma, etc.

Astus wrote:
The seeds are deductible, but my point is that the argument used for that deduction is not good enough, as the existence of an alayavijnana is self-contradicting.

Malcolm said:
Nāgārjuna accepts the Sammitya theory of the avipranasha, but when is the last time you saw one?

Astus wrote:
He does not, but rejects both the seed theory and the non-disappearing dharma theory, and gives his interpretation at the end where he talks about empty karma. This is made clear in the commentaries and similarly summed up in Madhyamakavatara 6.39-40.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Yes, its role on the path is to undergo transformation through recognizing that the seeds within it that ripen as the appearances of the three worlds are nothing other than appearances to one's mind that arise from the ālaya.

Astus wrote:
The seeds are unknown and never seen, in other words, latent, even though they're said to be the objects of the storehouse consciousness. The very supposition of such a storehouse is purely theoretical, as it's never perceived by anyone. So, when it's claimed that "it" is transformed, such a transformation doesn't occur to any being.

Malcolm said:
Your objection does not hold at all.

Astus wrote:
What part doesn't hold? Unless you know a case where there is awareness of the alayavijnana, it is nothing more than a hypothesis.

Malcolm said:
According to some kinds of Madhyamaka, no one is conscious of their own consciousness at all.

Astus wrote:
That issue of self-awareness is another matter. Alayavijnana is per definition unknown.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
MMK 17 shows only that there can be no ultimate continuum.

Astus wrote:
Since it's illusory anyway, why struggle with building a whole system of it? I mean, alayavijnana is not perceptible by anyone, it is admittedly based only on "holy teaching and proper reasoning" (Cheng Weishi Lun, BDK ed, p 83), so it's posited as a mere theoretical workaround, but even if it's better than those proposed before it, if investigated a bit, it suffers from a number of inconsistencies, starting with the problem of being a consciousness nobody is conscious of. Aside from that, alayavijnana has no practical role on the path.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Unconscious and Inactive
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
Sure but what I'm asking is what we do with this idea that there is something alive and active that isn't my conscious intention.

Astus wrote:
I guess by not your intention you mean:
My anal personality, libido, denial, repression, catharsis, Freudian slips, and neuroses aren't my conscious intention.
But they seem to have an activity and a "life of their own".
A distinction is given in the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.038.than.html, where cetana (intention) and anusaya (obsession, tendency) are discussed in relation to consciousness. However, what you seem to talk about are not latent tendencies but rather habits that seem unintentional only because of the lack of clarity ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.068.than.html ) regarding one's own mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 5:06 PM
Title: Re: Unconscious and Inactive
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
How do you know?

Astus wrote:
Intention is a mental factor, so without a mind how can there be a function of mind?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 6:28 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Of course it is directly connected with the path of liberation. Otherwise there would be no purpose in teaching the ālayavijñāna.

Astus wrote:
What is the purpose of teaching it? To give a plausible explanation of the continuity of being. But as it is shown in MMK 17, establishing a continuity is not possible. How is it connected in your view?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
Is there anything that isn't a conventional model?

Astus wrote:
Right. My point is that it is a secondary teaching in the way that it is not directly connected to the path of liberation, it is not a necessary element.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm said:
According to whom? Even Candrakīrti accepts it.

Astus wrote:
Provisional, in the sense of being a convenient explanation of karma, a conventional model.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
it is not an entity separate from the eighth consciousness.

Astus wrote:
The eighth consciousness is a provisional teaching, not something that anyone is aware of, consequently if this "knowing" is posited as one of its aspects, it makes knowing itself a mere theory.

Anonymous X said:
In its [principle] of not being in concord [with unreal thought], its substance is constant and immutable, and we view it as thusness.

Astus wrote:
Thusness is everything's true nature, not unique to the storehouse consciousness.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: Unconscious and Inactive
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
Why can we not say that it is possible that there is an unconscious element which is active in some manner, whether impermanent or not?

Astus wrote:
What has no consciousness has no intention, hence no action. That does not mean that the wind is static, but it has no will of its own.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Unconscious and Inactive
Content:
Astus wrote:
That is only regarding the assumption of a self. If something is permanent it is necessarily in a fixed state, hence cannot be an agent interacting with impermanent phenomena.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 7:53 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Supramundane said:
i am referring to the former. am i right to do so, according to strict interpretation of Buddhist teaching?

Astus wrote:
There are six consciousnesses, as noted above. Ideas about some sort of universal mind, etc., are neither reasonable nor proven by experience, therefore they are incorrect views. So, no, there is no basis in Buddhism for anything like what you propose here.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 7:34 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Supramundane said:
but isn't the mind boundless and intrinsically untainted?

Astus wrote:
What do you call the mind? In Buddhism there are six consciousnesses: visual-, auditory-, olfactory-, gustatory-, tactile-, and mental-consciousness. The six consciousnesses are defined by the six possible objects, as they exist dependent on each other (cf. MN 38, SN 35.93). So, when you talk of mind as boundless and intrinsically pure, what kind of mind is it?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 7:12 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Supramundane said:
the mind can be cleaned of defilements, after all.... it is not intrinsically conditioned and impermanent. there is hope.

Astus wrote:
It is exactly because the mind is not permanent that it can be purified, otherwise it would be permanently tainted.

Supramundane said:
if mind is intrinsically conditioned and impermanent then what hope do we have of reaching Nirvana?

Astus wrote:
A permanent and unconditioned mind can never be changed. So either one would be already liberated or will never be liberated at all. That is why an eternal self denies the possibility of cultivation and the eventual attainment of nirvana.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 6:56 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Supramundane said:
the mind is conditioned and impermanent? i'm not sure about that...
Mind and consciousness are different...

Astus wrote:
If you posit a permanent mind, that means such a mind is always aware of the same thing, or not aware at all, otherwise there is change, conditioning, impermanence. That is why an unconditioned mind is impossible and cannot exist.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 4:54 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Supramundane said:
Buddhism is insistent that the skandhas are not the self, but does this mean necessarily that there is no self?

Astus wrote:
What kind of self could there be? Either it is the same as the aggregates or different from them. If it is the same, then it is impermanent, consequently is not a self. if it is different, then it does not have any of the qualities of the aggregates, it is unconscious and inactive, and that is something that cannot function as a self.

Supramundane said:
We can agree that the skandhas are not the self, but that does not necessarily rule out the existence of a self beyond the skandhas…. right?

Astus wrote:
It does rule it out.

Supramundane said:
could it be that once we erase the defilements obscuring the mind, the unobscured mind is the True Mind which can be conceived of as a sort of positive, a “selfless Self”?

Astus wrote:
Mind is conditioned, impermanent, empty. A self should be unconditioned and permanent. If there were a permanent self, it would either be eternally tainted or eternally pure, and no path to it would make any sense, hence Buddhism would be totally pointless and meaningless.

Supramundane said:
Perhaps it too can be viewed in a positive way instead of solely negative: then it would be a Near-vana… closer to us than we ever expected.

Astus wrote:
There are positive terms for nirvana, like peace and bliss.

Supramundane said:
It is not a negation but a presence… inside all of us.

Astus wrote:
If it is inside all of us, what is it?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 4:41 PM
Title: Re: "All Buddha-Nature is One"
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Also, according to the Huayan teaching, all Buddha-nature is one:

Astus wrote:
The interpenetration of phenomena does not mean there is a single buddha-nature, but that appearances are interdependent. The quote provided does not even mention buddha-nature. Furthermore, in the article given as the source mentions buddha-nature as the principle, that principle is simply emptiness, but once we arrive at the fourth dharmadhatu there is no mention of the principle at all.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Malcolm said:
As I pointed out already, the idea the formless realms are actually formless is a debatable point upon which there is disagreement. According to the the Theravada tradition as well as the Dzogchen tradition, there are no disembodied minds anywhere in the three realms, and with respect to the latter, not even in the bardo.

Astus wrote:
It is a debatable point that is addressed in the Kathavatthu (VIII.8, XVI.9) and refuted, i.e. the arupaloka cannot contain rupa, i.e. matter.

"You can predicate them truly of the Rupa-sphere, where there yet is matter. But this sphere is not identical with the Arupa-sphere. And if you predicate matter of the Arupa-sphere, you must show that matter agrees with the description you can truly give of the Arupa-sphere as a state of existence, a destiny, etc."
(Kathavatthu, VIII.8, tr Aung & Davids, p 220)

What source do you use regarding the Theravada interpretation?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Malcolm said:
There are no minds without bodies, and no bodies without minds. Mind and matter are coterminous.

Astus wrote:
There is a whole realm for minds without bodies. There are also bodies without mind. Also, if bodies are defined in terms of the experiential perspective, then they refer to the instances of certain sensory occurrences, that is: sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch, and those are not always present.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Malcolm said:
Both — the division between mind and body (nāmarūpa) is formal, not actual.

Astus wrote:
In what interpretation? Rupa stands for earth, water, fire, and wind - neither of them carries any sentience. As for nama, it consists of feeling, perception, intention, contact, and attention - of those perception is associated with memory.

But if the distinction is taken away - i.e. it's all just mind - then again every form of knowledge is of the same kind.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: "All Buddha-Nature is One"
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
So how can we determine Buddha Nature at all, even in a conventional sense, using language?

Astus wrote:
Once such concepts as buddha-nature are brought up, I think it is better to clarify what is meant by them. Going for the excuse that this or that concept cannot be explained only tells that it is a concept not clearly understood. There are actually quite a few treatises and sutras on buddha-nature, not to mention meditation techniques meant to help discovering it.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 7:32 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Zongmi's Knowing/Jnana is not intellectual knowledge.

Astus wrote:
If you can tell what kind of knowledge it is, how is that not intellectual?

Anonymous X said:
There is no subject/object duality. If you've never experienced this, I can see how you could ask this question.

Astus wrote:
As there is neither subject to experience it, nor object to be experienced, how could anyone ever experience it?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 6:38 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
How to make pottery. How to play the piano. How to raise a child. How to ski.

Astus wrote:
Do those knowledges reside in the mind or the body?


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 6:08 PM
Title: Re: "All Buddha-Nature is One"
Content:
DGA said:
True or false:  "all Buddha-nature is one"

Astus wrote:
False.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 4:54 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
My only question to you is do you know this throughout your entire being? Otherwise, it is still intellectual.

Astus wrote:
Know what exactly? Whatever is written is necessarily a verbal-conceptual product. As for the intended meaning, that phenomena are unstable, that is directly perceivable to anyone. But, even though there has never been anything to cling to, it is exactly conceptualisation that creates the illusion of independent objects and subjects. So, what other knowledge is there but intellectual?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
My view is unimportant.

Astus wrote:
If so, then why say "It is worthless without your own engagement, just like repeating Madhyamaka views. It's quite boring, actually to listen to it all. There's no energy in this kind of repetition."

As for my take on the matter of inherent enlightenment, the true nature of mind, etc., it is too easy to mistake these expressions as some sort of ultimate self, while the whole point is just to recognise that this whole realm of experiences is unestablished as it is, and that non-abiding is the original nature of appearances.

"This dharma body is everything, 
it is like an illusory dream, continuously changing. 
The passions of greed, anger, and stupidity are all 
invisible, changing, and immaterial, like flowing scum.
Observe clearly the human body. 
It is not solid but fragile and inconsistent 
(once separated, once reassembled). 
All the intentions and all the calculations are empty."
(Dharma Flower Samadhi Sutra, T9n269p286b21-24, tr Nguyen Hien)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 7:30 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Read...

Astus wrote:
I'm asking about your interpretation, your view, what you call "intrinsic awareness". If one takes it to be something other than the aggregates, it is no different from the mistaken view of the self. If it is not different from the aggregates, it cannot be called intrinsic.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 6:35 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
No one denies the importance of emptiness, but that is only a gateway, and still a view. Even Nagarjuna cautioned against holding on to this view. It is still the self-thought grasping for a foothold.

Astus wrote:
Since Nagarjuna cautioned about taking emptiness to be a view, how could he have taught it as a view?

"The victorious ones have said
That emptiness is the elimination of all views.
Anyone for whom emptiness is a view
Is incorrigible."
(MMK 13.8, in Ocean of Reasoning, p 298)

In other words, emptiness is not a view. But, to relinquish all views, one needs to first learn and then understand what emptiness means.

Anonymous X said:
What Padmasambhava is saying in his 'Self Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness' treatise is not 'merely' that mind is empty. He is inviting us to let go of all our views, thoughts, concepts about mind and anything else, for that matter

Astus wrote:
Letting go of everything, that has been the teaching of the Buddha from the beginning, that is what it's all about, and that's what you find in Madhyamaka as well.

Anonymous X said:
and meet/be this Intrinsic Awareness that is right here, right now.

Astus wrote:
What is that intrinsic awareness? Is it the same or different from the aggregates?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 5:37 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
If this were a mental process, then many of the posters here would have realization as many have understood the Madhyamaka emptiness. But, this is clearly not the case as most of the understanding is an intellectual one and is not on the intrinsic level of being.

Astus wrote:
There are three stages of wisdom (prajna): learning (sruta), understanding (cinta), application (bhavana). In other words, one cannot understand what one hasn't learnt, and one cannot apply what one has not understood. It is at the stage of application that one personalises the teaching on an experiential level.

Anonymous X said:
Madhyamaka is seen as a stepping stone in the so called step by step schools because it is not a direct pointing to the original nature or Tathagatagarbha. I'm not trying to diminish its importance, though. This is why I don't accept that realization is a mental process. It may 'seem' like it, but this is not realization. Of course, your definition may be different, but I see it as another concept you believe in.

Astus wrote:
Those you call "direct pointing" merely say that one should realise that the mind is empty. How is that different from Madhyamaka?

"The fields of the Buddha are all identical to space. The wondrous natures of people of this world are empty, without a single dharma that can be perceived. The emptiness of the self-natures is also like this."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 28)

"since the past this teaching of ours has first taken nonthought as its central doctrine, the formless as its essence, and nonabiding as its fundamental. The formless is to transcend characteristics within the context of characteristics. Nonthought is to be without thought in the context of thoughts. Nonabiding is to consider in one’s fundamental nature that all worldly [things] are empty, with no consideration of retaliation—whether good or evil, pleasant or ugly, and enemy or friend, etc., during times of words, fights, and disputation."
(ch 4, p 43)

Zhihuang said, “What does the Sixth Patriarch take as meditation?”
Xuance said, “What our master preaches is the wondrously peaceful and perfectly quiescent: the essence and functions are suchlike, suchlike. The five skandhas are fundamentally empty, the six [types of] sensory data are nonexistent. One does not enter and come out of [samādhi], one is neither concentrated nor disturbed. Meditation is in its nature nonabiding, and the serenity of meditation transcends abiding. Meditation in its nature is birthless, and the thoughts of meditation transcend birth. The mind is like space, but it is without any thinking of space.”
(ch 7, p 69)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 6:16 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
And I think that is a dogmatic view. The transitoriness of everything applies to the domain of name and form and to sensory experience. Power, possessions, children, the body, life, status, history, and everything else that can be experienced is transitory. But I don't believe 'awakening to the deathless' is a transitory state.

Astus wrote:
If you say that awakening is a state, it is an impermanent mental phenomenon. What I said is that with the cessation of the cause (ignorance) the effect (suffering) cannot occur. This is what the four noble truths talk about. And that is how liberation cannot turn into bondage again.

Wayfarer said:
That is the exact phrase I was referring to. I think a lot of what is said about the non-reality of experience falls into the latter category.

Astus wrote:
The unreality of appearances would fall into the category of non-existence if there were something that could actually cease to exist. But since there has never been a self, liberation is not the destruction of self.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Realization is a mental process? Perhaps you can explain this to us.

Astus wrote:
It is a mental process, as it is about confirming in personal experience the truth of the Dharma. To stay with Nagarjuna:

"Through the elimination of karma and affliction there is nirvana.
Karma and affliction come from conceptual thought.
These come from mental fabrication.
Fabrication ceases through emptiness."
(MMK 18.5, in Ocean of Reasoning, p 377)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, June 5th, 2017 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Nevertheless, the Buddha doesn't fall back from the state of realisation. In that sense, it is not a temporary state, is it?

Astus wrote:
When the cause, ignorance, is gone, then clinging does not occur again, because the cause does not occur any more. It is not a state one stays in.

Wayfarer said:
The problem I am having with this point is that, in any encyclopedia entry on Buddhism, the 'two extreme views' are given as 'the object really exists' ('eternalism') or 'the object does not exist' ('nihilism'). So to say that objects don't exist, seems to me to be the 'extreme' of nihilism. Perhaps I am not understanding it correctly.

Astus wrote:
The two extreme views are sassatavada and ucchedavada, that is: eternalism and annihilationism. The definitions from the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.01.0.bodh.html:

"There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are eternalists, and who on four grounds proclaim the self and the world to be eternal."
"There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists and who on seven grounds proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being."

As for how it becomes the extremes of existence and non-existence, Nagarjuna explains:

“It exists” is an eternalist view; “It does not exist” is an annihilationist idea.
Therefore the wise one should not have recourse to either existence or nonexistence.
For whatever exists by its intrinsic nature does not become nonexistent; eternalism then follows.
“It does not exist now [but] it existed previously”—from this, annihilation follows.
(MMK 15.10-11, tr Siderits)

There isn't actually a view that says "nothing exists", since even saying it contradicts it. Rather, it's probably best illustrated with the teaching on rebirth, where some believe that there is an eternal soul, and some believe that with death everything is over - these are the extreme views of existence and non-existence, better put as eternalism and annihilationism (not nihilism).

"If the existent is unestablished, then the nonexistent (abhāva) too is not established.
For people proclaim the nonexistent to be the alteration of the existent."
(MMK 15.5, tr Siderits)

"In fact, people say that what is the alteration of a thing is "non-existence"; however, the very thing does not exist. If it does not exist, of what would there be non-existence? Without non-existence, how do you say its antithesis, existence [of a thing], is possible?"
(Buddhapalita: Mulamadhyamakavrtti, 15.5, tr Akira Saito, p 202)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, June 4th, 2017 at 5:49 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
If 'ignorance' gives rise to suffering, and ignorance is caused by clinging

Astus wrote:
The order is: ignorance -> clinging -> suffering.

Wayfarer said:
is 'understanding the nature of ignorance' a sensory experience?

Astus wrote:
Understanding ignorance is like understanding anything else, it is a mental process, thoughts. It's like the story of riding a boat on a foggy lake and seeing another boat coming towards you. You shout at the other boat to avoid you, but when it gets next to you it turns out to be an empty boat without anyone controlling it. Similarly, one can be upset about all sorts of things, but when it becomes clear that there is no person doing it, who can one be angry at? One can make a difference between learning that boats go without handlers and seeing empty boats with one's own eyes. That is the difference between learning the five aggregates to be empty and actually perceiving it to be true. What perception means in this case is not finding a self anywhere.

"In the same way, a monk investigates form, however far form may go. He investigates feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, however far consciousness may go. As he is investigating form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness, however far consciousness may go, any thoughts of 'me' or 'mine' or 'I am' do not occur to him."
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.205.than.html )

Wayfarer said:
I don't see how it could be.

Astus wrote:
First one assumes that there is a self who perceives and does things, that is ignorance. Then one reviews that assumption in theory and in actual experience (experience means phenomena of the six sensory domains). That way one can confirm that such assumption of a self is unfounded and false. Or as Rangjung Dorje put it:

"Looking again and again at the mind that can not be looked at,
One sees clearly just as it is the truth of not seeing.
Resolving any doubt as to how it is or is not,
May we recognize our unconfused nature by ourselves."
( http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/mahamudra.pdf )

Wayfarer said:
Seeing through or gaining insight into the cause of ignorance is not itself an experience - it's a realisation, although such realisations do sometimes trigger experiences (as per the excerpt from Traleg Kyabgon).

Astus wrote:
That kind of difference between experience and realisation is important to know, but there the word "experience" carries a meaning different from how I used it. Here experience stands for temporary meditative phenomena, like bliss, clarity, and thoughtlessness, while realisation stands for the personal confirmation that all experiences are impermanent and empty. Realisation is enduring because it removes the cause of suffering, that is, it is discovering that our conception of a self is unfounded. But as a mental process realisation is a temporary phenomenal event just like everything else.

Wayfarer said:
Yes, tables and chairs are dependently arisen. But they serve a purpose and have an identity, even if they are not 'ultimately real'.  They are not eternal or independent, but they're also not non-existent.  They're neither completely real nor simply non-existent. That is what I take the 'middle way' understanding to be.

Astus wrote:
When it is accepted that an object is dependent, it means it does not exist on its own. Not existing on its own means that there is no object that is dependent. So whatever object and its relations one may consider, it's all a conceptual fabrication and nothing more, a product of fiction. Again, that is not saying that there are no appearances at all, it is about understanding how appearances actually are. And the only reason for that understanding is to eliminate ignorance.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, June 3rd, 2017 at 5:53 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
If there were not, then why wouldn't everyone who hears, sees, and has normal sense-perception, already have realised Nirvāṇa? Is there no difference between those who have realised it, and those who have not? If there is a difference, what is that difference? What do the Noble Ones see, that the puthujjana do not see? Is what the Noble Ones see an object of sense perception?

Astus wrote:
The difference is whether one clings to appearances or not. It is the difference between "my car has been stolen" and "a car has been stolen", where in the former case one is moved by various thoughts and emotions, but not in the latter case.

Wayfarer said:
That is not a matter of asserting that objects don't exist

Astus wrote:
Asserting and negating are both imprisoning views. The reason one is taught to see that appearances are empty is to eliminate the false object of attachment.

Wayfarer said:
The way I understand it, is that realisation pertains to those who 'realise the truth of the teaching'. And the truth of the teaching is not an object of sense, but understanding of emptiness, Śūnyatā. So that is why it is 'transcendental wisdom' - because it goes beyond the domain of sensory perception. ('Gone beyond'). If it didn't 'go beyond' then Buddhists would simply be empiricists.

Astus wrote:
Emptiness is simply that the six sensory objects are unestablished, without essence, ungraspable. Experiences are already empty as they are, so it is not that there is something new to gain, but the mistake of imagining a self is what needs to be removed.

"The self-notion itself does not have the identity of a self, nor does the (selfish being's) deforming habit; their natures are different.
Apart from these two there is no other (self), so it arises only as an error; liberation is therefore the termination of a mere error."
(Mahayanasutralamkara 6.2, in The Universal Vehicle Discourse Literature, p 50)

Wayfarer said:
But you also know that the way that a bodhisattva and a hell-being sees things, are entirely different. That is often quoted here on this forum: the bodhisattva sees a 'glass of water' as ambrosial nectar and the hell-being sees it as boiling pus (or something revolting).

Astus wrote:
That difference in the perception of water you mention is between hell dwellers and gods. Being a bodhisattva is not a matter of birth or perception.

Wayfarer said:
Certainly, we all aim for that understanding, but we're not there yet. So saying that the objects of ordinary experience are merely non-existent, doesn't reflect that perspective, in my view.

Astus wrote:
The point of the teaching is not to just give a description of one's erroneous views but to direct one to the correct view, and that correct view is that appearances are empty and unreal.

Wayfarer said:
So how does saying that they are non-existent, apply or help, in respect of our situation in the world? There is still relative and conventional truth, it can't simply be all swept aside. I don't think that is what 'realising emptiness' means.

Astus wrote:
Emptiness cures the dissatisfaction caused by hope and fear that come from mistaking appearances as substantial. It is not the denial of appearances or of causality.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
muni said:
'Beyond' the duality of sense and sense object, how to express that other then again having subject and sense object?

Astus wrote:
There has never been a self in any of the sensory areas, so it's not them that are the problem, only the false assumption of there being a substance.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 7:01 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
But the reality of the world is not being called into question, it's the attachment to it, the taking it to be something that it is not, namely, substantial, satisfying, and 'mine', which it is not.

Astus wrote:
That's the whole point of seeing that appearances are merely appearances and not substantial things, to discover that the object of attachment is purely imagined, therefore attachment itself is false. As long as one assumes real objects attachment remains.

Wayfarer said:
It is unreal, from the understanding of the Tathagata.

Astus wrote:
Isn't it the Buddha's wisdom that we all aspire to and intend to realise?

Wayfarer said:
Not ultimately real. But as I said, if you have an illness, and you are prescribed a cure, then the difference between the cure, and a false cure, is a real difference - a matter of life and death.

Astus wrote:
What is the difference between "ultimately real" and simply "real"? As long as one is filled with hope and fear one suffers.

Wayfarer said:
That why there are degrees of reality, which is symbolised in the dharmachakra, by the eight realms of existence.

Astus wrote:
The dharmacakra (wheel of law) symbolises the noble eightfold path. The bhavacakra (wheel of existence) symbolises the six realms of rebirth. The six realms are not degrees of reality but places of birth that come from ignorance.

Wayfarer said:
We're in 'the human realm'. But the Tathagata is always shown as outside the human realm altogether. From that perspective, what we take to be real is unreal -  but it's real for us, and what we do has real consequences in that context. Emptiness is not mere non-existence, it's more complicated than that.

Astus wrote:
As long as one clings to appearances, one is in samsara. With the end of clinging there is no more samsara. The cause of clinging is the belief in a self, a substance, a real existence. Seeing emptiness is how clinging is eliminated. So, why argue for being in the human realm and not aim for the vision of the buddhas?

Wayfarer said:
That is why Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche differentiates 'realisation' and 'experience'.  When the distinction between 'self and other' and 'knower and known' is overcome, then one is in the domain of realisation, not experience as such.

Astus wrote:
Are you saying there is a "domain of realisation" beyond the six areas of experience?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 6:38 PM
Title: Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen
Content:
Jesse said:
Doesn't that describe the realization of an Arahant?

Astus wrote:
In Mahayana the arhat falls into identifying with the annihilation of appearances and clings to a formless absorption.

Jesse said:
In Mahayana, once this stage is realized, we intentionally take rebirth as a Bodhisattva, correct?

Astus wrote:
Mahayana is the bodhisattva path from the beginning.

Jesse said:
And this rebirth as a Bodhisattva is the pledge were take -- rebirth as a bodhisattva until all sentient beings are liberated.

Astus wrote:
The bodhisattva path begins with the arousal of bodhicitta. The goal is to become a buddha and save all beings. One does not remain stuck on a lower level intentionally.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 6:15 PM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
The conclusion to The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana says that we take refuge in Amida Buddha, not as a literal flesh and blood Buddha, but instead as Suchness or Dharma-body

Astus wrote:
And even if one does that, the result is birth in Sukhavati, not enlightenment.

Dharma Flower said:
If he meditates on the Dharmakaya, the Suchness of the Buddha, and with diligence keeps practicing the meditation, he will be able to be born there in the end because he abides in the correct samadhi.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html
It seems that, no matter what I say, you have a desire to say the opposite, instead of recognizing differences in interpretation between Buddhist paths. I even was able to find two instances in a liturgical book from the Nishi Honganji saying that Amida attained Buddhahood in the "beginningless past," just as Shinran taught. Everyone must find the Dharma path that's right for them.

Astus wrote:
There are differences. And the question I've been asking is how can mere recitation result in liberation, as there seems to be neither logical nor textual basis for that.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 6:09 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
This is your interpretive problem in a nutshell. Because you think any reference to a transcendent reality is 'like Atman' or 'substantialist', then you reject them, the consequence being that ultimately nothing is real. That is what 'nihilism' means - it is literally the assertion that nothing exists, or nothing is real.

Astus wrote:
Let's try to be more specific and concrete. All possible experiences can be categorised as the six sensory areas: seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking. So, anything that can ever occur happens only within these six. It can be easily confirmed - both logically and experientially - that all experiences are impermanent and conditioned. To propose something beyond experiences, something permanent and unconditioned, means that that something cannot be experienced, it has no connection to neither bodily nor mental phenomena, therefore it does not and cannot exist, and even if it did it would be irrelevant and useless.

What is taught by the Buddha and all his descendants is that suffering is the product of clinging that comes from the ignorance about the six types of experiences being impermanent and conditioned. Therefore, any teaching that postulates a doctrine contrary to that is merely propagating ignorance.

Wayfarer said:
When I challenged you on that point, you said, sure, many Buddhists texts say that nothing is real. But they don't.

Astus wrote:
Could you show those teachings that don't?

Wayfarer said:
That is why Madhyamika is a dialectic, not a systematic philosophy.

Astus wrote:
Madhyamaka is a method, a skilful means, just like every Buddhist teaching.

Wayfarer said:
Things that exist from one level of understanding, don't exist from another level. So for us worldly beings, chairs, tables, illnesses, accidents, and so on, really do exist, and have real consequences. Of course from another perspective, they're unreal, empty of inherent existence. But to say they're merely or simply non-existent as you do, is the mistake of nihilism (in my opinion anyway).

Astus wrote:
If you accept that things are empty of inherent existence, that means you accept that they are not real. If you say that things do have inherent existence, that means you claim that chairs, tables, illnesses, accidents, etc. are independent, eternal phenomena. Besides either having or not having inherent existence there is no third option.

Wayfarer said:
On the level of conventional reality, conventional distinctions are vital.

Astus wrote:
Where has that been denied anywhere?

Wayfarer said:
That is why the two truths teaching is so important. Things that are real on one level are unreal on another. To mistake or mix up the two levels creates a problem, it is mistaking the relative for the absolute.

Astus wrote:
The conventional truth is dependent origination, the ultimate truth is emptiness. These two truths actually stand for the same single reality. Two think of them in terms of one being existence and the other non-existence is assuming an impossible duality.

So Nagarjuna says,

"That which is dependent origination
Is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation,
Is itself the middle way."
(MMK 24.18, in Ocean of Reasoning, p 503)

And Tsongkhapa sums it up as,

"So long as the two understandings - of appearance,  
Which is undeceiving dependent origination,  
And emptiness devoid of all theses - remain separate, 
So long you have not realized the intent of the Sage."
( http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/Three%20Principal%20Aspects.pdf, v 11)

And before this is all assumed to be mere dialectics or rhetoric, the meditation on dependent origination and emptiness together is an essential practice.

"Whether walking, standing, sitting, lying, or rising, he should practice both "cessation" and "clear observation" side by side. That is to say, he is to meditate upon the fact that things are unborn in their essential nature; but at the same time he is to meditate upon the fact that good and evil karma, produced by the combination of the primary cause and the coordinating causes, and the retributions of karma in terms of pleasure, pain, etc., are neither lost nor destroyed. Though he is to meditate on the retribution of good and evil karma produced by the primary and coordinating causes [i.e., he is to practice "clear observation"], he is also to meditate on the fact that the essential nature of things is unobtainable by intellectual analysis."
( http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html, part 4)

Wayfarer said:
But it is also the meaning behind many Zen koans, as you yourself know - 'first there is a mountain' - relative truth - 'then there is no mountain'  - realising emptiness - 'then there is' - harmonising both perspectives which is mastery.

Astus wrote:
Yes, there are such gradual methods, where the point is to eventually understand and realise that emptiness and appearances are not two different realms. In other words, nirvana is samsara.

Wayfarer said:
That sutta I referred to, the Nibbana Sutta, is unequivocal: there is an unborn, unconditioned, unmade, were there not, there would be no escape from the conditioned, the born, the made.

Astus wrote:
Escape to where?

Wayfarer said:
As I said, if you go to Sutta Central and search for 'unconditioned', you find many references, including many which refer to 'merging with' or 'realising' the unconditioned.

Astus wrote:
And that unborn and unconditioned is emptiness.

Wayfarer said:
That is not Vedanta - the Buddha has a different way of going about it. But their mokṣa and the Buddhist Nirvāṇa are not worlds apart.

Astus wrote:
Vedanta believes there is an ultimate perceiver, Buddhism shows that perception is  a conditioned phenomenon. Vedanta's solution is to identify only with the ultimate subject as the only real thing, Buddhism's solution is to not identify with, not cling to anything, because there is nothing to rely on.

Wayfarer said:
There is a higher truth, that is the meaning of 'abhijna'.  Higher, compared to what?

Astus wrote:
Higher compared to the false idea of self.

Wayfarer said:
It doesn't mean there is a substratum or permanent unchanging substance (or subject of experience).

Astus wrote:
What does it mean then?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 6:54 AM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Then there's no further need to question me regarding the gradual cultivation of enlightenment through Buddha-name recitation.

Astus wrote:
And what the http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html says is that "through the strength of wholehearted meditation on the Buddha, he will in fulfillment of his wishes be able to be born in the Buddha-land beyond". Not insight, not enlightenment, but birth in the Pure Land.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Have you read The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana?

Astus wrote:
Yes.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
If Buddhahood is a principle which pervades the universe, then reciting the Buddha-name helps to remove the delusion of separateness between ourselves and Buddhahood. The purpose of Zazen is the same, to remove our delusion of separateness.

Astus wrote:
Emptiness is the ultimate nature of the whole world, but merely repeating the word "emptiness" will not get one even to understanding, much less actually realising it.

As for "Reciting the Buddha's name while concentrating on Compassion and Wisdom for instance, produces great energy, concentration and joy." that is what one can get with it, although if one aims for concentration, it is better to just focus on one thing. Still, wisdom needs more than being focused. One has to use that calm and concentrated mind to actually investigate appearances in order to gain insight.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Please read the books and articles you recommended previously, and you will find the answers you are seeking. May you be happy and well.

Astus wrote:
I don't recall any of them claiming that mere recitation is sufficient for insight, that's why I'm asking you about it.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
"If our Mind accords with the Mind of Buddha Amitabha for one moment"

Astus wrote:
How does it accord with the mind of a buddha? Although your quote says "the image of the Pure Land’s golden thrones appear before us", I doubt that buddha-mind means seeing golden thrones.

Then your next quote says "reciting the name of Amitabha (Namu-Amida-Butsu) reveals this enlightenment" - however, that again does not say how or for what reason. If it were that simple and direct, then everyone reciting the name would be enlightened right there, but that is apparently not the case.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 5:42 PM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
The highest level is reciting the Buddha-name to realize there’s no Buddha apart from the mind.

Astus wrote:
How can the repetition of some syllables bring one to the realisation that there is no buddha apart from the mind?

As the Platform Sutra (ch 2, BDK ed, p 28) states:

"This must be practiced in the mind, not recited by the mouth. To recite it orally without practicing it in the mind is [as unreal] as a phantasm or hallucination, [and as evanescent] as dew or lightning."


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 5:04 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Indeed, and that was the very verse I alluded to. But there is a raft, a teaching, and there nerds to be.

Astus wrote:
I meant that the teaching was to abandon all attachments.

Wayfarer said:
Of course it doesn't exist, because 'everything that exists' has a beginning and an end in time. The unconditioned doesn't come into and go out of existence, therefore could not 'exist'.

Astus wrote:
What the sutra says is that both "conditioned" and "unconditioned" are words, teachings meant for instructing people, that's why they don't actually exist.

Wayfarer said:
I find Astus' interpretation consistently falls into the side of saying 'non-existent'.

Astus wrote:
"You must discern the words of the complete teaching and the incomplete teaching; you must discern prohibitive words and nonprohibitive words; you must discern living and dead words; you must discern medicine and disease words; you must discern words of negative and positive metaphor; you must discern generalizing and particularizing words.
To say that it is possible to attain Buddhahood by cultivation, that there is practice and there is realization, that this mind is enlightened, that the mind itself is identical to Buddha - this is Buddha's teaching; these are words of the incomplete teaching. These are nonprohibitive words, generalizing words, words of a pound or ounce burden. These are words concerned with weeding out impure things; these are words of positive metaphor. These are dead words. These are words for ordinary people.
To say that one cannot attain Buddhahood by cultivation, that there is no cultivation, no realization, it is not mind, not Buddha - this is also Buddha's teaching; these are words of the complete teaching, prohibitive words, particularizing words, words of a hundred hundredweight burden. These are words beyond the three vehicles' teachings, words of negative metaphor or instruction, words concerned with weeding out pure things; these are words for someone of station in the Way, these are living words."
(Extensive Record of Baizhang, tr Cleary, p 37-38)

Wayfarer said:
Reality, the real, the dharmadhatu, is not existent or non-existent, but that which all notions of existence and non-existence presupposes.

Astus wrote:
In other words, it seems you are proposing that there is an actual substratum.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 6:59 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
There is indeed something to hold on to i.e. the raft, the teaching.

Astus wrote:
And this is the teaching:

"Therefore one should not cherish dharmas or non-dharmas. For this reason, the Tathagata often teaches: Bhiksus, know that my Dharma is like a raft. If even the correct teachings (Dharma) should be abandoned, how much more so the incorrect teachings (non-Dharma)?"
( http://ctzen.org/sunnyvale/enUS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=141&Itemid=57, ch 6)

Wayfarer said:
And, 'original purity' is not something fabricated.

Astus wrote:
"Good son, the term 'unconditioned' is also a word provisionally invented by the First Teacher. Now, if the First Teacher provisionally invented this word, then it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination. And, if it is a verbal expression apprehended by imagination, then, in the final analysis, such an imagined description does not validate a real thing. Therefore, the unconditioned does not exist."
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 12)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Admin_PC said:
While, a mind purified of defilements is a common theme - the idea of original purity is not.

Astus wrote:
So it is. And then what an original mind stands for in those teachings that actually speak about it is another matter.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Admin_PC said:
I'm just talking about how 本心 is used in that passage. He says in that passage that it is something that needs to be realized and requires purification.

Astus wrote:
The mind is originally pure, it does not require purification. In fact, the very attempt to purify it is wrong. So Huineng says:

"If one is to concentrate on purity, then [realize that because] our natures are fundamentally pure, it is through false thoughts that suchness is covered up. Just be without false thoughts and the nature is pure of itself. If you activate your mind to become attached to purity, you will only generate the falseness of purity. The false is without location; it is the concentration that is false. Purity is without shape and characteristics; you only create the characteristics of purity and say this is ‘effort’ [in meditation]. To have such a view is to obscure one’s own fundamental nature, and only to be fettered by purity."
(Platform Sutra, ch 5, BDK ed, p 45; T48n2008p353b10-14)

Admin_PC said:
I have no problem with the idea that HuiNeng's method is described differently elsewhere.

Astus wrote:
In my previous posts it was from the very same chapter, and the above one is from the same text, so it's not really elsewhere.

Admin_PC said:
One of the Samyukta Agama passages with 本心 is T0099_.02.0278. I took a stab at translating it, but it came out ugly. It's explicitly talking about awakening in that context though.

Astus wrote:
In that sutra 本心 stands for "original intention", that is, the reason why someone goes forth from home life to homelessness.

Admin_PC said:
I totally understand there may be different nuances of the term & paths to get there, I just think when multiple passages are talking about a mind free of defilements and obscurations, they're essentially pointing to the same thing.

Astus wrote:
Except that there is no such thing as an "original mind" in the Nikayas/Agamas, nor in the Abhidharma. Even Madhyamaka and Yogacara refute such a concept. That is, the concept that the mind is inherently pure. On the other hand, it is of course the goal of all Buddhist tradition to attain complete purity, i.e. freedom from afflictions and obscurations.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2017 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Admin_PC said:
This is almost verbatim from the "gradual" links I posted above: What is “no thought”? To understand and perceive all dharmas, with a mind free from attachment and defilement, that is “no thought.” When in use, this mind pervades everywhere, yet it does not cling to anything. We only have to purify our (original) mind so that the six consciousnesses exit the six gates (senses) without being contaminated or defiled by the six dusts (sense objects).

Astus wrote:
No thought in Huineng's teaching is arrived at directly and is equal to buddhahood. The gradual path - not the sudden teaching of Huineng - is where one gets to no thought stage by stage.

"When you are awakened to this teaching, there is  “no thought”— you are free from recollection and attachments, and do not give rise to delusions.  From your own true suchness, illuminate and observe with wisdom, neither grasp nor reject anything—this is to see your true nature and attain Buddhahood."


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2017 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Admin_PC said:
The passage I quoted from HuiNeng contains some portions that sound fairly gradual

Astus wrote:
What section do you see as gradual? For instance:

"If you give rise to genuine prajna contemplation, in an instant all deluded thoughts will cease; if you realize your inherent nature, you awaken and you arrive at the stage of a buddha"

That is direct access to buddhahood, from delusion to perfect enlightenment.

"Realization of the original mind is true liberation."

Again, one just needs to realise it. No purification, no stages, only immediate liberating insight.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2017 at 6:54 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
What do you think of this quote

Astus wrote:
It points to falling into the extreme views of existence and non-existence. In fact, grasping at any view is an error, as it is still maintaining the idea that there is something to hold on to.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2017 at 5:19 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Admin_PC said:
There are countless examples of the Buddha referencing defilements & the mind that abandons them throughout the suttas.

Astus wrote:
Your references are about purification, cleansing, the gradual path to develop and attain an unblemished mind. The doctrine of "original mind" / "buddha-nature" is quite the opposite, as it means that the mind is already pure and perfect, that it does not require any cleansing but only discovery/recognition. Although it can be said that if we look into the actual details of these teachings then they are not contradictory, nevertheless, they represent different approaches, particularly at the beginning.

Admin_PC said:
Again, I'm taking the term 本心 as it's presented in places like here:
http://ctzen.org/sunnyvale/enUS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=140&Itemid=57

Astus wrote:
The Platform Sutra is a good example of how the original mind is understood in Chan - and generally in Mahayana to some extent. While those Theravada teachers talk about " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_04.html ", that " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/demons.html ", so " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/suwat/blatant.html " Compare that to what http://ctzen.org/sunnyvale/enUS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=140&Itemid=57 says: "When you understand this one truth, you can understand all truths.", "the ordinary person is Buddha. Affliction is enlightenment.", "Why not immediately realize in your own mind the intrinsic nature of suchness?", "those who realize the doctrine of “no thought” thoroughly understand all dharmas; those who realize the doctrine of “no thought” perceive the realm of the buddhas; those who realize the doctrine of “no thought” attain Buddhahood."

Admin_PC said:
I'm not sure where the miscommunication is, but my only intention was to define 本心 within a Buddhist context.

Astus wrote:
Original mind stands for buddha-nature in the sense of inherently pure mind. That concept does not really fit into the teaching of consciousness taught as momentary instances of experiences appearing as an effect of the contact between a sense faculty and a sense object. It also suspiciously sounds like an atman, so the whole doctrine of tathagatagarbha was apparently not too popular in India itself, unlike in East Asia.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2017 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Admin_PC said:
Imho the way mind is spoken of in the Pabhassara Sutta is fairly consistent with the idea of 本心 as I've seen it presented elsewhere.

Astus wrote:
That is a sutta quoted frequently by those who want to see atman in Buddhism, even when there are thousands of teachings explaining again and again that the mind is dependently arisen. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html#fn-1, https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=378555#p378555, https://sujato.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/on-the-radiant-mind/, and http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/8.3-Radiant-mind.-piya.pdf unanimously agree that the radiance mentioned in that sutta is about a state of mind experienced during absorption. So it is not like what could be understood as the nature of mind, or anything of primordial status. But there are a number of suttas where the Buddha talks about things that are always true, and those things are impermanence, suffering, no-self, and dependent origination.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2017 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Admin_PC said:
Just a quick note. Primordial mind is 本心 (běn-xīn/hon-shin) in Chinese/Japanese; translated as "fundamental mind" by the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism. It appears in the Taisho canon 1948 times, starting with multiple references in the Madhyama Agama and even in volume/fascicle 5 of the Lotus Sutra. It's not new.

Astus wrote:
The real question is what the "original mind" is understood as. For instance, in MA 196 the term "original mind" refers to the situation where a monk has temporarily gone insane but then regained his original mind. In MA 203 the term is again used for a person with a sane mind. And those are all the results for 本心 in the Madhyamagama.

"To speak of the mirror awareness is still not really right; by way of the impure, discern the pure. If you say the immediate mirror awareness is correct, or that there is something else beyond the mirror awareness, this is a delusion. If you keep dwelling in the immediate mirror awareness, this too is the same as delusion; it is called the mistake of naturalism.
To say the present mirror awareness is one's own Buddha is words of measurement, words of calculation - it is like the crying of a jackal. This is still being stuck as in glue at the gate. Originally you did not acknowledge that innate knowing and awareness are your own Buddha, and went running elsewhere to seek Buddha. So you needed a teacher to tell you about innate knowing and awareness as a medicine to cure this disease of hastily seeking outside. Once you no longer seek outwardly, the disease is cured and it is necessary to remove the medicine. If you cling fixedly to innate knowing awareness, this is a disease of meditation."
(Extensive Record of Baizhang, from Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 33-34)


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2017 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Maybe we are talking about two different things here. Things arise from causes, but Mind's nature does not.

Astus wrote:
Awareness as the nature of mind means that every instance of consciousness necessarily has the quality of awareness. Besides awareness - as an inextricable aspect of every experience - other universal qualities can be mentioned, like impermanence and emptiness.

"It is like a bronze mirror. The bronze material is the intrinsic substance. The brightness of the bronze is the intrinsic functioning. The reflections that the brightness gives off are the conditioned functioning. The reflections appear [when the mirror] is face to face with objective supports. They appear in a thousand varieties, but the brightness is an intrinsically constant brightness. The brightness is just one flavor. In terms of the metaphor, mind's constant calm is the intrinsic substance, and mind's constant Knowing is the intrinsic functioning."
(Zongmi: Chan Letter, in Zongmi on Chan, p 96)

It doesn't mean that there is a separate thing called the "nature of mind" or "awareness" independent of conditioned appearances. It is, just as the term implies, the nature, the quality, an aspect of mind. But mind is simply the six kinds of consciousness and the four mental aggregates.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2017 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
And yet when I have a piece of metal touching my peripheral nervous system these ideas become philosophical.

Astus wrote:
Check this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html

PuerAzaelis said:
Does that mean the story about existence or non-existence is true?

Astus wrote:
What story?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2017 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Maybe your choice of words confuses me. You said 'spontaneity is a 'denial' of causality'. This is a different definition than 'to be without cause'. There is no denial of causality that I can see. Maybe you didn't mean to put it that way?

Astus wrote:
If something can exist without any cause for its existence, that is denying causality, as it means that something can come out of nothing.

"If things arose without any causes at all,
Everything would always arise from everything.
Worldly people would not have to go through hundreds of hardships to engage causes,
Such as planting seeds, to make results arise.
If beings were empty of causes, then, just like the scent and color
Of utpala flowers in the sky, they would be imperceptible.
Yet the world, in all its intense brilliance, is perceptible.
Therefore, just like your own mind, understand that the world arises due to causes."
(Madhyamakavatara 6.99-100, in Feast of the Fortunate, p 309-310)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Maybe you should explain what you mean about spontaneity being a denial of causality.

Astus wrote:
Spontaneity means to be without cause.

Anonymous X said:
Zongmi states many times that the nature of mind is spontaneous Knowing and perfect with all merits.

Astus wrote:
Knowing/awareness is a basic quality of mind, just as a box has sides. Zongmi points to knowing in the sense of the mind being aware and at the same time unattached, in other words, neither grasping nor rejecting phenomena, it is the five aggregates without seeing them as self. It doesn't mean that there is a separate consciousness without a cause, only that consciousness is empty.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 7:03 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I don't believe that śūnyatā equates to non-existent. In other words, empty =/= non existent.

Astus wrote:
The first meaning of emptiness is the emptiness of person (pudgalasunyata), that there is no self (nairatmya/anatma). So, the deluded worldly person assumes that there is a self, but there are only the five aggregates. There has never been a self, but that truth is not known by a deluded being. And then if we look further, it turns out that even the aggregates are nothing concrete or substantial, therefore appearances are empty as well.

Wayfarer said:
When it is said that phenomena are unreal, that is spoken from the understanding of the tathagatha, who sees through the illusion of worldly existence. But to say that worldly things are unreal from the viewpoint of worldly life, does lead to the mistake of nihilism, which is that things are merely non-existent. That is how I understand the 'two truths'.

Astus wrote:
The reason for the teaching of emptiness is to have worldly people realise it. Buddhas do not need the teaching, deluded people need it.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 5:13 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Nothing is real, or nothing matters.

Astus wrote:
Nothing is real, that is a common Buddhist doctrine.

"All conditioned phenomena
Are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble, a shadow,
Like dew or a flash of lightning;
Thus we shall perceive them."
( http://ctzen.org/sunnyvale/enUS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=141&Itemid=57, ch 32)

"If those endowed with excellent faith, diligence, and devotion
meditate on the illusion-like [nature]
of illusion-like phenomena,
illusion-like buddhahood will manifest."
(Niguma: Stages in the Path of Illusion, v 4, in "Niguma, Lady of Illusion", p 54)

However, this idea of "nothing matters" is absolutely wrong, an immoral and incorrect view.

"And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view."
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#micchaditthi )

Wayfarer said:
Beings are actually just representations, really they're not beings.

Astus wrote:
I'd say even "representation" is a misleading word, as it implies something behind the appearance that is represented, while the point of "vijnaptimatra" is to realise that there is nothing beyond mere conceptualisation.

Wayfarer said:
Buddhism is often accused of being nihilist. This is said to be on account of the fact that the Buddhist śūnyatā really is just total nothingness, and the aim of the Buddhist path is complete non-existence.

Astus wrote:
Emptiness means that appearances are empty, not that there are no appearances. Also, the aim cannot be complete non-existence if there is nothing that exists in the first place.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 4:52 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
smcj said:
'cause we ask 'em to.

Astus wrote:
Do you think they have no knowledge of the suffering afflicting beings, or that they have no compassion to help?

smcj said:
Didn't you just say they had activities that were spontaneous?

Astus wrote:
Spontaneity is a denial of causality, so it doesn't really fit into Buddhism. The explanation used for the buddha activities is that they are motivated by their vows and appear in response to specific circumstances, while at the same time what is perceived by individual beings depends entirely on their karma.

smcj said:
That's me!

Astus wrote:
The point is to recognise that even when one encounters buddhas it's a product of one's own mind.

"Virtuous monks, you must recognize the one who manipulates these reflections. ‘He is the primal source of all the buddhas,’ and the place to which every follower of the Way returns."
(Record of Linji, p 9, tr Sasaki)

But this should be understood in the context of the two truths.

"If even the correct teachings (Dharma) should be abandoned, how much more so the incorrect teachings (non-Dharma)?"
( http://ctzen.org/sunnyvale/enUS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=141&Itemid=57, ch 6)

That is, buddhas are the most perfect beings, and even they are only mere concepts, so how much more so everything else?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
The power of reciting Amida's name is not dependent on our belief or doubts

Astus wrote:
"The text of the sutra says sentient beings must take a vow to be born in the Pure Land. This word "must" points to deep faith. Making vows with deep faith is precisely the Mind of Supreme Enlightenment. In sum, faith and vows are truly the guiding compass to the Pure Land. Relying on faith and vows and consistently invoking the Buddha-name is correct practice.
If your faith and vows are solid and strong, then even you recite the Buddha-name only ten times, or only once, as you are on the brink of death, you are sure to attain birth in the Pure Land. Without faith and vows, even if you recite the Buddha-name until [you achieve a level of concentration the Zen literature describes as] "wind cannot enter you and rain cannot wet you" and "you stand like a silver wall or and iron wall", you will still not have a way to be born in the Pure Land."
( http://ymba.org/books/mind-seal-buddhas/explanation-text/main-portion/seeking-rebirth-pure-land )

"You should pay particular attention to Faith and Vows, and wish wholeheartedly to achieve rebirth in the Pure Land ... [and not as a celestial being or a Dharma Master, however awakened, as these are still within the realm of Birth and Death]. Only then will your Faith and Vows reach Amitabha Buddha so that His Compassionate Vow may embrace you."
(Yin Kuang: Pure Land Zen, p 32)

"Rebirth in the Western Land thus requires, first of all, deep Faith and fervent Vows. Without these conditions, even if you were to cultivate, you could not obtain a response from Amitabha Buddha. You would merely reap the blessings of the human and celestial realms and sow the seeds of liberation in the future. Anyone who fulfills the conditions of Faith and Vows is assured of rebirth in the Pure Land. When Elder Master Yung Ming stated that “out of ten thousand who cultivate Pure Land, ten thousand will achieve rebirth,” he was referring to those with full Faith and Vows."
(Yin Kuang: Pure-Land Zen, Zen Pure-Land; p 37)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 6:45 AM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
What I've said is, in the absence of evidence for the existence of such a literal Buddha, I choose to look for the meaning beyond literal factuality, that Amida is another way of describing Dharma-body or Buddha-nature, a finger pointing to the moon.

Astus wrote:
Do you perhaps have evidence for the dharmakaya or buddha-nature?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 6:10 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Except that such an expression could easily be construed as nihilism.

Astus wrote:
What do you mean by nihilism?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Is this because all beings are empty of inherent existence?

Astus wrote:
Yes, although it might be better to say that beings are empty of beings, just as the picture of an apple is not an apple.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2017 at 5:06 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
If the Buddha isn't concerned with the enlightenment of others, how do we square this with the Bodhisattva ideal? I appreciate your help.

Astus wrote:
Neither a bodhisattva nor a buddha has this concept that there are beings who need saving, so why should they have a concern for something that doesn't even exist? A buddha's activities are without effort, without aim, without intention. I might say that talking about the influence or activity of a buddha is merely a figure of speech for ordinary people who cannot help keep thinking in terms of agents and actions.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2017 at 5:16 PM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
What matters is whether they can quote Shinran's writings in support of their views.

Astus wrote:
That doesn't seem to be the case, nor is there much logic in the idea of calling oneself a Pure Land Buddhist while at the same time denying the existence of the Pure Land.

"Whoever clings to his/her own views in such manner and does not hold Pure Land and Amitabha as truly existing neither understands Ch'an nor Pure Land."
( http://ymba.org/books/direct-approach-buddhadharma/part-ii-pure-land-sect/principle-and-action )

"Some people say that the Pure Land is nothing but mind, that there is no Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss beyond the trillions of worlds of the cosmos. This talk of mind-only has its source in the words of the sutras, and is true, not false. But those who quote it in this sense are misunderstanding its meaning.
Mind equals objects: there are no objects beyond mind. Objects equal mind: there is no mind beyond objects. Since objects are wholly mind, why must we cling to mind and dismiss objects? Those who dismiss objects when they talk of mind have not comprehended mind.
...
Let me ask [the person who thinks Pure Land is mind-only], “When hell appears to you at the moment of death, is this not mind?” “It is mind.” “Does the person fall into hell?” “Yes, he falls into hell.”  “Then it is obvious that since the person falls into hell, hell exists. Is it then only the Pure Land that does not exist? When the mind manifests hell, the person falls into a hell that really exists. When the mind manifests the Pure Land, isn’t the person born in a Pure Land that really exists?”"
(Pure Land Teachings of Master Chu-Hung, in Pure Land, Pure Mind, p 47-48)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 7:16 PM
Title: Re: How can I be sure its valid
Content:
Zafutales said:
how do I know the relative ease in which I find I can 'just sit' is not some sort of self delusion and I am in fact wasting my time?

Astus wrote:
"like a man who drinks water knowing [immediately] whether it is cold or warm."
(Platform Sutra, ch 1, BDK ed, p 25)

If you cannot verify for yourself, who can?

"Are not these matters to be perceived by the eye of wisdom?"
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.152.wlsh.html )

Perhaps the relevant question is whether one can tell the difference between delusion and enlightenment. So here is a summary of what the goal is in Zen:

"Put down the four elements, do not cling to anything;
In this Nirvanic nature, feel free to eat and drink.
All phenomena are impermanent; all are empty.
This is the complete enlightenment of the Tathagata."
...
"The mind is a sense organ; dharmas are its object.
The two are like marks on a mirror.
Once the dust is rubbed off, the light begins to appear.
When both mind and dharmas are forgotten, this is true nature."
(Song of Enlightenment, in http://ddc.shengyen.org/mobile/text/09-04/55.php and http://ddc.shengyen.org/mobile/text/09-04/171.php )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 5:31 PM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
It appears that the Higashi Honganji uses it anywhere, in multiple places, to explain their understanding of Amida Buddha

Astus wrote:
I see, thanks. Apparently Higashi is the modernist branch that is based on the ideas of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiyozawa_Manshi.

However, there is still no explanation for how mere recitation can ever result in liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Please see the doctrinal statement from the Higashi Honganji that I've posted elsewhere on this forum.

Astus wrote:
http://www.higashihonganji.or.jp/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/MON_vol.1_s.pdf is a general introduction in a magazine. As for a "doctrinal statement", the http://www.hongwanji.or.jp/english/teaching/index.html site states on their teaching:

"Attaining the "entrusting heart"--awakening to the compassion of Amida Tathagata (Buddha) through the working of the Primal Vow--we shall walk the path of life reciting Amida's Name (Nembutsu). At the end of life, we will be born in the Pure Land and attain Buddhahood, returning at once to this delusional world to guide people to awakening."

Dharma Flower said:
Some see the Primal Vow as a literal vow made in history, while other Shinshu scholars see it as symbolic of the compassionate activity of Dharma-body in the world, leading all beings to enlightenment.

Astus wrote:
How could it lead to enlightenment to merely recite a word for a symbol of the dharmakaya? That would be like repeating the name of the mascot of a university and expecting all the knowledge provided there to simply appear in one's mind.


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 5:45 PM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
I do not believe in literal flesh and blood Buddhas from eons before the Big Bang, and neither do I accept that the Pure Land sutras were taught by the historical Buddha.

Astus wrote:
Then I do not see how your views could ever harmonise with the teachings of Honen and Shinran.

Dharma Flower said:
If Amida Buddha is really a symbolic expression of Buddha-nature or Dharma-body, then the Nembutsu has immense power as a Buddhist practice for awakening the Buddha within.

Astus wrote:
That is not the immediate goal of a Pure Land Buddhist, nor has the recitation of the name ever been taught as a method to realise the nature of mind. Furthermore, the three minds, that are the requirements for attaining birth, include the realisation that we are incapable of attaining wisdom ourselves, and that's why reliance on the Vows are necessary.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: How can I be sure its valid
Content:
Matylda said:
So do you think that popular instructions for zazen just for common people are all? and the similar way rinzai does it, exhausts entirely the issue?

Astus wrote:
Could you be more specific, like what manuals? The most elaborate meditation instruction from a Soto author that I have seen was Keizan's Yojinki, otherwise it's the same every time, even if it takes up a whole book, talking about the posture and hishiryo.

Matylda said:
It doesnt matter what view I hold... it is just reality for common people, to get used to zazen under master and to continue for long long years.... then one may arrive at the point where practice and realisation are one. Just to talk about it does not enlighten anyone.. about this matter I prefer to base my confidence on words and teachings of genuine masters of soto zen in Japan.

Astus wrote:
Is Dogen considered a genuine master of Soto Zen from Japan? He wrote:

"In the Buddha-Dharma practice and experience are completely the same. [Practice] now is also practice in the state of experience; therefore, a beginner’s pursuit of the truth is just the whole body of the original state of experience. This is why [the Buddhist patriarchs] teach, in the practical cautions they have handed down to us, not to expect any experience outside of practice. And the reason may be that [practice itself] is the directly accessible original state of experience."
(Bendowa, SBGZ, vol 1, BDK ed, p 12)

Matylda said:
Anyway even if one is of the view that practice and enlightenment are inseperable, then one has to have great confidence, faith etc. not to say total devotion. It is what in soto is really required.

Astus wrote:
Certainly, those qualities are essential in every Buddhist school.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 6:58 PM
Title: Re: How can I be sure its valid
Content:
Matylda said:
in many zen manuals it is clearly stated.

Astus wrote:
Like what manuals? For instance, the one published on the official site ( http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/practice/zazen/howto/index.html ) gives a clear description of what and how to do. And in the http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/practice/zazen/video/index.html it is said "Anyone can practice it anytime and anywhere." Furthermore, if the instructions are considered, they are very simple and straightforward, especially compared to practices like Tendai's shikan, Theravada's satipatthana, or Vajrayana's deity yoga.

Matylda said:
It is for those of the highest potential.

Astus wrote:
How so? The http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/practice/zazen/advice/fukanzanzeng.html states: "intelligence or lack of it is not an issue; make no distinction between the dull and the sharp-witted"

And in the Bendowa:

"When people just practice with right belief, the clever and the stupid alike will attain the truth. Just because our country is not a nation of benevolence or wisdom and the people are dullwitted, do not think that it is impossible for us to grasp the Buddha-Dharma. Still more, all human beings have the right seeds of prajñā in abundance. It may simply be that few of us have experienced the state directly, and so we are immature in receiving and using it."
(SBGZ, vol 1, BDK ed, p 21)

Matylda said:
It takes 20-30 years of strenuous pratice without any results

Astus wrote:
Are you of the view that realisation is separate from the practice itself?


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: How can I be sure its valid
Content:
Zafutales said:
avoiding what the Buddha taught, being indifferent to everything or zoning out

Astus wrote:
Shikantaza is the practice of non-abiding, where one directly experiences the reality of appearances as ungraspable. Avoiding, indifference, and zoning out are all concepts one may be mistakenly attached to, if they are conceived as the correct states to be maintained.

Zafutales said:
due to these feelings of doubt

Astus wrote:
There are three ways you can address doubts. The first method is through learning - both from texts and oral explanations. The second method is through contemplating the teachings that are already learnt, particularly the teaching of dependent origination is recommended for overcoming the hindrance of doubt. The third method is applying the understanding gained through contemplation where one verifies the teaching in direct, personal experience. Shikantaza is this third method of verification practice (i.e. practice-enlightenment).

Zafutales said:
I am sitting to alleviate my suffering and to experience the true nature of my mind

Astus wrote:
Have you already clarified what suffering and the true nature are? If not, you might start there, before attempting to find something you do not know what it is - in other words, when looking for a flower it is good to be clear about what it looks like first.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen
Content:
Astus wrote:
With buddha-nature Dogen does the same thing he does with most of the other concepts and topics he discusses, that is, transforms it into a teaching on suchness as the immediate reality of experience, and indeed, what else could be rightfully called buddha-nature? But that doesn't mean this interpretation is anything new or unique, only that Dogen wanted to correct those (likely the former followers of the so called Daruma school) who falsely take buddha-nature as a self.

In his opening remarks, Dōgen dismisses several of the most common views: that the buddha nature is the potential to become a buddha, that it is the activity of cognition within us, or that it is a universal self pervading the world. Rather, he says, the buddha nature is existence itself — not an abstract principle of being, but the actual occurrence of things, or, as he puts it simply at the end of his essay, “fences, walls, tiles, and pebbles.”
(Bielefeldt: https://web.stanford.edu/group/scbs/sztp3/translations/shobogenzo/translations/bussho/intro.html to the translation of Bussho)

It is said that Dogen Zenji denies Buddha-nature as an intrinsic essence, which is implied by the statement that “all have Buddha-nature,” by interpreting that sentence as “all are Buddha-nature.” But that subject was already carefully treated in Mahaparinirvana Sutra by the discussion on the self. We should understand that Dogen Zenji, following the sutra, simply criticized the popular theory of Buddha-nature in those days that interpreted Buddha-nature as some actual substance within sentient beings.
...
Dogen Zenji says that Guishan’s view of no Buddha-nature is superior to Yanguan’s. Sentient beings and Buddha-nature are not two separate entities which can overlap each other. If we really try to show how sentient beings are Buddha nature, there is no other way than saying, “All sentient beings have no Buddha-nature.”
(Rev. Kenshu Sugawara: http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms13.pdf, p 3)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 5:14 PM
Title: Re: Me too! Me too!
Content:
Malcolm said:
Correct, but indeed, as Machig Labdron says of the dharmadhātu after going through all the yānas, including Dzogchen and Mahāmudra:
The ignorant and confused are deluded
because they know and apprehend the dharmadhātu as an object [...]
All of these knowledges (rig pa)
are knowledges that know objects.
Those [knowledges that] possess objects are not true.
There is nothing to know in the mind without objects.
Whoever knows is bound by knowledge.

Astus wrote:
Something similar from the Platform Sutra (ch 7, BDK ed, p 62-63):

The master said, “That teacher’s explanation still allows perceptual understanding to exist, which is why you were unable to comprehend. I will now reveal a verse for you:

Not seeing a single dharma but maintaining the view of nonbeing
Is much like floating clouds blocking the face of the sun.
Not knowing a single dharma but maintaining one’s knowledge of emptiness
Is just like the great void generating lightning and thunder.

When such perceptual understanding arises for the slightest instant,
How can mistaken recognition ever understand expedient means?
You should understand the error of this yourself, in a single moment of thought,
And the numinous brilliance of the self will be constantly manifest.

When Zhichang heard this verse, his mind became suddenly expansive [in enlightenment], and he related a verse:

There is no reason to activate perceptual understanding,
To be attached to characteristics and seek for bodhi.
When one’s intelligence harbors a single thought of enlightenment,
How can one transcend the delusions of the past?

The self-nature, enlightened to the essential source,
Illuminates the crazed currents [of awareness].
Without entering the room of the patriarch,
In a daze, going about with two heads.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
boda said:
"No buddha can make people enlightened. Everyone has to do it oneself."
If I may ask, how exactly do you know this?

Astus wrote:
"By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another."
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html.165)

"You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way. Those meditative ones who tread the path are released from the bonds of Mara."
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.20.budd.html.276)

Question: "Does the Buddha really save or rescue all sentient beings?"
The master said: "There are really no sentient beings to be saved by Tathagata.  Since there is, in reality, neither self nor non-self, how then can there be a Buddha to save or sentient beings to be saved?
(Huangbo, http://ymba.org/books/dharma-mind-transmission/wan-ling-record )

"Outside mind there’s no dharma, nor is there anything to be gained within it. What are you seeking? Everywhere you say, ‘Th ere’s something to practice, something to obtain.’ Make no mistake! Even if there were something to be gained by practice, it would be nothing but birth-and-death karma."
(Record of Linji, p 17, tr Sasaki)

One day, Guishan said to Xiangyan, “I’m not asking you about what’s recorded in or what can be learned from the scriptures! You must say something from the time before you were born and before you could distinguish objects. I want to record what you say.”
Xiangyan was confused and unable to answer. He sat in deep thought for a some time and then mumbled a few words to explain his understanding. But Guishan wouldn’t accept this.
Xiangyan said, “Then would the master please explain it?”
Guishan said, “What I might say would merely be my own understanding. How could it benefit your own view?”
Xiangyan returned to the monks’ hall and searched through the books he had collected, but he couldn’t find a single phrase that could be used to answer Guishan’s question.
Xiangyan then sighed and said, “A picture of a cake can’t satisfy hunger.”
He then burned all his books and said, “During this lifetime I won’t study the essential doctrine. I’ll just become a common mendicant monk, and I won’t apply my mind to this any more.”
Xiangyan tearfully left Guishan. He then went traveling and eventually resided at Nanyang, the site of the grave of National Teacher Nanyang Huizhong.
One day as Xiangyan was scything grass, a small piece of tile was knocked through the air and struck a stalk of bamboo. Upon hearing the sound of the tile hitting the bamboo, Xiangyan instantly experienced vast enlightenment.
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 191-192)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Malcolm said:
Astus has studied with a number of Zen teachers, and couple of Kagyu ones too, if I am not mistaken.

Astus wrote:
https://eubuddhist.blogspot.com/2016/02/my-little-dharma-history.html


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
aflatun said:
Understood, but everything you've described here is an experience isn't it? Clinging, ignorance, their cessation, the aftermath, all experience is it not?

Astus wrote:
Experiences are what occur in the six sensory areas. Delusion is clinging to them, liberation is not clinging. It is called delusion, because experiences are already empty, without anything that could be clung to. Recognising the delusion of substantiality as unfounded means seeing that there is nothing to see, like when one assumes one's hat is very valuable but turns out to be worthless. Is that recognition an experience? Sounds like one, but isn't, because it means simply the end of an incorrect thought. And to make it a little bit more complicated (a tree that has never grown, sky-flowers, dreams), even that incorrect thought of a self has never been anything else but empty. To take a different approach, experiences have always been pure and the end of delusion means arriving to what has always been there, so it's nothing new, but the original nature of phenomena. So it is not an experience in the sense of something that occurs, also because something occurring is ordinarily conceived as an independent object one can hold on to, while the whole point is that such occurrences have never existed in the first place.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
aflatun said:
Could you unpack this some? If they're not experiences what are they?

Astus wrote:
One clings to the aggregates because of the superimposition of self. When the ignorance about the emptiness of the aggregates is eliminated, there is no more superimposition, hence no more clinging.

"What is ignorance? Good sons, all sentient beings fall into various inverted views without beginning. Just like a disoriented person who confuses the four directions, they mistakenly take the Four Elements as the attributes of their bodies and the conditioned shadows of the Six Objects as the attributes of their mind. It is just like when our eyes are diseased and we see flowers in the sky, or a second moon. Good sons, the sky actually has no flowers—they are the false attachment of the diseased person. And because of this false attachment, not only are we confused about the self-nature of the sky; we are also mixed up about the place where real flowers come from. From this there is the falsely existent transmigration through life and death. Therefore it is called "ignorance."
Good sons, this 'ignorance' actually lacks substance. It is like a man who is dreaming. At the time of the dream, there is no non-existence. But when he awakens he finds that there is nothing for him to hold on to. Similarly, when the sky-flowers disappear from the sky, you cannot say that there is a definite point of their disappearance. Why? Because there is no point from which they arose. All sentient beings falsely perceive arising and ceasing within the unarisen. Therefore they say that there is 'transmigration through life-and-death.' "
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/sutra_of_perfect_enlightenment.html#div-1 )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 3:43 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Off the top of my head, the Buddha silently holds up a flower amidst a gathering of his followers. Only Kasyapa responds with a knowing smile. Hence, the transmission of the Dharma to Kasyapa, the first patriarch of Chan.

Astus wrote:
Even in that story it's not because of the mere presence of the Buddha.

Anonymous X said:
As I said before, if you believe in things like this, the stories abound.

Astus wrote:
Then it shouldn't be problematic to reference a few here.

Anonymous X said:
You have to remember that much of the early Buddhist teachings is apochryphal and some sutras are heavily disputed.

Astus wrote:
Everything in the Buddhist canons are canonical. Scriptures not found in the canons might be called apocryphal.

Anonymous X said:
Even the famous phrase attributed to Bodhidharma, "A special transmission outside of the scriptures" is believed to have originated first in the Song dyansty.

Astus wrote:
That is not a sutra.

Anonymous X said:
Do you have a teacher, Astus? Or, do you get everything that you speak of from reading and your own meditation? It's not clear if you are involved with a specific Buddhist school or lineage. I know you mentioned you studied Buddhism at a university? Was this mostly academic work?

Astus wrote:
How is that relevant here?


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anders said:
Why don't you write to him and ask him to clarify on fb then?

Astus wrote:
He replied that "radical openness" was a term he used nowadays for awakening/enlightenment in Zen where the sense of self and other had fallen away, but he found it difficult and even foolish to attempt to express it verbally. Furthermore, he did not think there was a direct cause of it, rather discipline and practice could make one prone to such an accidental experience/moment/encounter.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
You are the one providing the quotes here.

Astus wrote:
I find it a good way to avoid stating things that are incompatible with the Dharma, furthermore, it allows everyone to cross reference it.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Malcolm said:
Should be:
"Could you provide a few quotes from the sutras where people attained enlightenment because of being in the mere presence of a buddha?"

Astus wrote:
Yes, that.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
How would you know what it is like to be in the presence of a Buddha or fully awakened being? There are many stories in Buddhist literature of sudden awakening in the presence of such a one.

Astus wrote:
Could you provide a few quotes from the sutras where people attained enlightenment because of the presence of a buddha?

Anonymous X said:
Do you have the correct view?

Astus wrote:
What constitutes correct view is defined by the sutras and shastras. But it can be summed up as:

all compounded phenomena are impermanent
all contaminated phenomena are suffering 
all phenomena are without self
nirvāṇa is peace
( http://read.84000.co/#UT22084-058-002/translation )

See also: https://books.google.com/books/about/What_Makes_You_Not_a_Buddhist.html?id=2gQm0mvsC50C

Anonymous X said:
If you say yes, show us your liberation.

Astus wrote:
"If there are those who say that they see bodhi and have attained it, we should know that they are the ones with exceeding arrogance."
( http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra13.html

Anonymous X said:
Thinking is not going to get us anywhere except down to the corner market for a bottle of milk. The more you rely on the written word, the further you get from any discovery.

Astus wrote:
"World-honored One, what is the cause of this quietude and vision?"
"Good son, it is purified discipline and true insight accomplished through purified hearing and reflection."
(Scripture on the Explication of Underlying Meaning, ch 6, BDK ed, p 68)

"For all bodhisattvas the cause is
The permeation of hearing [scriptural] discourse,
For nonimaginative wisdom is
True and correct reflection."
(Asanga: Summary of the Great Vehicle, ch 8, BDK ed, p 92)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
dharmagoat said:
"Seeing", however it is meant metaphorically, still pertains to experience.

Astus wrote:
Not really. The third noble truth is the truth of cessation, the end of craving - that is not an experience. Seeing emptiness, the nature of phenomena, is the end of fabricating a self/substance, the cessation of conceptualisation, so again - that is not an experience.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anders said:
Why don't you write to him and ask him to clarify on fb then?

Astus wrote:
I already did.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
dharmagoat said:
But is meaningfulness a necessary pursuit in the case of "radical openness"? Does it add anything useful to the experience, which in itself is very clear?

Astus wrote:
Consider the following from Kamalashila's second manual:

"Those who do not meditate with wisdom by analyzing the entity of things specifically, but merely meditate on the elimination of mental activity, cannot avert conceptual thoughts and also cannot realize identitylessness because they lack the light of wisdom. If the fire of consciousness knowing phenomena as they are is produced from individual analysis of suchness, then like the fire produced by rubbing wood it will burn the wood of conceptual thought. The Buddha has spoken in this way."
(Stages of Meditation, p 134)

It is a critique of what they thought of as the Chan teaching. However, that approach of not thinking has been rebuked by Chan teachers as well:

"If you empty your minds and sit in quietude, this is to become attached to the emptiness of blankness."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 29)

Seeing the nature (kensho) is the essential requirement. To merely abide in a passive state of mind is the root of stupidity. But when it is directly recognised that there is not a single thing to attach to or discard, then one is free from all troubles.

dharmagoat said:
If the experience is one of enlightenment, how can it be confusing?

Astus wrote:
Enlightenment is not an experience, but seeing that all experiences are unestablished.

"Whoever knows that nothing depends on anything has found the Way. And whoever knows that the mind depends on nothing is always at the place of enlightenment."
(Bodhidharma, Wake-up Sermon, in The Zen Teachings of Bodhidharma, p 57)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 7:19 PM
Title: Re: Turning the light around (asraya-paravrtti)
Content:
鐵觀音 said:
It sounds nice, but I was under the impression that this was not a Buddhist teaching, and that awareness ("the knowing mind is the light") was as empty as everything else. Still, I find this view more satisfying as at least it offers a reasonable interpretation of the quote.

Astus wrote:
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another."
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html )

"According to that non-Buddhist view, there is one spiritual intelligence existing within our body. When this intelligence meets conditions, it can discriminate between pleasant and unpleasant and discriminate between right and wrong, and it can know pain and irritation and know suffering and pleasure—all [these] are abilities of the spiritual intelligence. When this body dies, however, the spirit casts off the skin and is reborn on the other side; so even though it seems to die here it lives on there. Therefore we call it immortal and eternal. The view of that non-Buddhist is like this. But if we learn this view as the Buddha’s Dharma, we are even more foolish than the person who grasps a tile or a pebble thinking it to be a golden treasure; the delusion would be too shameful for comparison."
(Dogen: Bendowa, SBGZ vol 1, BDK ed, p 14)

"Hearing the word “buddha-nature,” many students have misunderstood it to be like the “self” described by the non-Buddhist Senika. This is because they do not meet people, they do not meet themselves, and they do not meet with a teacher. They vacantly consider mind, will, or consciousness— which is the movement of wind and fire13—to be the buddha-nature’s enlightened knowing and enlightened understanding. Who has ever said that enlightened knowing and enlightened understanding are present in the buddhanature?"
(Dogen: Bussho, SBGZ vol 2, BDK ed, p 5)


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 7:10 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I didn't say there was no guidance, just formal instructions, a model laid out from point A to point B.

Astus wrote:
But, as you could see yourself in my previous post, there are formal and clear instructions. Furthermore, Huangbo's teachings assume the familiarity with the general Buddhist teachings that cover the extensive discussion of the threefold training.

Anonymous X said:
This seemed to be done away with in favor of the sitting practice and the 'koan' of refraining from conceptual thinking.

Astus wrote:
Huangbo's teachings contain nothing for sitting meditation or reflecting on koans. Sitting meditation is a common practice, just as sutra recitation, repentance, etc., while koan inspection is a practice that occurred centuries after Huangbo.

Anonymous X said:
They also had a living example of a 'fully awakened' being amongst them, living and shitting amongst them.

Astus wrote:
The mere presence of a buddha can be inspiring, but not liberating.

Anonymous X said:
LIke I said to Malcolm, if you subscribe to a model/path, you are going to measure everything through this filter. From my perspective, this is the Great Wall, not the one in China.

Astus wrote:
Without correct view there is no liberation.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 6:41 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
dharmagoat said:
"Radical openness" describes an experience, it serves as a description rather than an explanation. The explanation is found in the experience.

Astus wrote:
An experience is meaningless without an explanation. Since "radical openness" is posited as the very goal and essence of Zen, there is already a lot of explanation surrounding this term. Evading clarification is only a source of confusion, not enlightenment.

Anders said:
if you are asking how words like "radical openness" could relate to traditional teachings, what first springs to mind is Nagarjuna's
To whomever emptiness is possible,
All things are possible.
I'm mostly reminded of Sengzhao's referring to Prajna as "dark knowing".

Astus wrote:
That stanza of the MMK (24.14) is about how the four noble truths, and dependent origination, can be valid only if there is no substance. Based on what I've found in Ford's blog, openness is like "bare attention":

"By bare attention we understand the clear and single-minded awareness of what actually happens to us and in us, at the successive moments of perception. It is called "bare" because it attends to the bare facts of a perception without reacting to them by deed, speech or mental comment."
( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel121.html )

As such, it always remains a specific state of mind, that's why it does not bring about on its own freedom from afflictions, and that's why it needs to be constantly cultivated.

Here I searched his blog and found the following passages relevant:

"Of course the Buddha offers some good news out of this twin observation that nothing is permanent and most hurt comes out of our trying to make things permanent.
That distress, that hurt continues. Until. Unless. We see through it.
Here all sorts of teachers point to a way of transparency, of openness, of finding our larger identity, something much bigger than the little self to which we were clinging as if it were so, so important."
( http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2008/09/a-couple-of-words-against-souls.html )

"I believe there is such a thing as awakening. I have experienced it. It is the direct insight into the fact we are two things at once. We are creatures woven out of a constantly moving dynamic of relationships, including genes and our experiences. And we are one. Or, I do like the Buddhist metaphor for this, we are empty. We lack any abiding essence. But that “essencelessness” is actually an openness. My experience of this is that this knowing, or again, the Zen metaphor better describes, there is a not knowing that is permanently a part of who I am. But, but both things are happening at once, the constrained and the open. In fact there is no way to unravel the temporal and conditioned from the boundless and free."
( http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2009/06/the-scandal-of-the-zen-teacher-and-where-it-takes-me.html )

"He seems to think the grand language of Zen’s pointing is pointing to something outside. It isn’t. Rather it is a pointing to the wondrous fact that the whole mess and every individual part is one, or rather, is nondual. And the splendid, magic thing about our human consciousness, in the make up of who we are as we are, is that we can “know” this. Rather, it is a letting go of clinging. It is, in fact, a not knowing. It is a finding of openness, of our boundlessness that exists with our vary limitations, our boundedness… Not one. Not two."
( http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2011/07/confession-of-a-buddhist-atheist-a-review.html )

"Here we’re invited to surrender to the realities of the flux of events, and out of that to learn the dance of relationships, to see into the reality that we are, all of us, boundless, our essence is no essence at all, just openness, and from there to realize our lives just as they are, when not clung to, are the Dharma, the dharmakaya, the great open itself. No difference."
( http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2015/02/a-fools-errand-a-small-meditation-on-the-nature-of-the-zen-way.html )

"And I love that blessing on the pure of heart. It is a call to openness, to letting go our our grasping, to seeing into the matter of self and other and how in the last analysis there is no difference. It is the way of wisdom, it is the way of the wise heart."
( http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2015/03/the-path-of-mercy-a-meditation-on-the-beatitudes.html )

"In the Harada/Yasutani koan curriculum, one first explores in some depth the reality of our essential openness, the fact there is no essential, but rather all that is, is. This truth of this is expressed most succinctly in the Heart Sutra and specifically in the phrase “form is emptiness, emptiness is form.”"
( http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2016/12/stopping-distant-temple-bell-meditation-traditional-zen-koan.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Huang Po never gave meditative instruction.

Astus wrote:
Huangbo is quite clear on what one should do.

"You trainees should have no doubts. It is the four elements that make up your bodies, but the four elements are without a self and the self is without a master. Therefore you should understand that this [human] body is without self and without master. 
It is the five skandhas that make up the mind, but the five skandhas are without a self and without a master. Therefore you should understand that the mind is without self and without master. The six senses, six types of sense objects, and the six consciousnesses, which combine together in generation and extinction, are also like this. These eighteen realms are empty, they are all empty. There is only the fundamental mind, which is expansive and pure."
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 19)

And I quoted the above as it is a very basic Buddhist teaching. But of course most of the teachings known from Huangbo are filled with direct and practical instructions. True, they do not sound like what people assume to be meditation instructions, however, those are often merely basic mindfulness and concentration practices, and do not qualify for even the shravaka level, much less Mahayana.

Anonymous X said:
He told his students that the only instruction was to refrain from conceptual thinking.

Astus wrote:
"Those who are free from all notions are called buddhas."
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 14)

Anonymous X said:
He constantly reprimanded his students when they brought up the Buddha, Sangha, Dharma.

Astus wrote:
"Someone who tries to discern me in form
Or seek me in sound
Is practicing non-Buddhist methods
And will not discern the Tathāgata"
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 26)

Anonymous X said:
His was a kind of 'no teaching' that forced the students to deal with their chattering, grasping, minds.

Astus wrote:
How can the absence of instructions make anyone deal with their problems? Beings are already without guidance and they are stuck in samsara.

Anonymous X said:
The one thing that was present was the teacher as a living example of unfettered living.

Astus wrote:
A statue of the Buddha should suffice then.

Anonymous X said:
How many people can you say you've seen who live this way? How many people have you met who have ended grasping? It's not a rhetorical question.

Astus wrote:
"if a person’s mind is pure he sees the merits and ornaments of this land."
(Vimalakirti Sutra, ch 1, BDK ed, p 79)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
none of it touches the core of grasping. This is a wholly different matter, imo. The cutting through is reified as another concept.

Astus wrote:
There are numerous instructions on how grasping arises and how it ceases, starting with the 12 nidanas. And as Baizhang taught, one should first let go, then let go of letting go, and finally let go of the concept of letting go of letting go.

Anonymous X said:
he always insisted that he didn't know and that anyone who tells you that they do know is misleading you. ... He always insisted that it is not what you think it is. In a way, it chooses you.

Astus wrote:
That sounds like the wrong view of naturalism, of denying causality, and consequently denying the fourth noble truth and practically the whole of the Buddhadharma. That attitude denies the use of practice, even more so, it denies the need to understand what the practice is about, and instead turns enlightenment into a divine miracle, a grace of fate, a pure accident. In the kanhua tradition it is the most serious defect of merely waiting for enlightenment to happen on its own.

"Above all, don't consciously await enlightenment. If you consciously await enlightenment, you're saying, "Right now, I'm deluded." If you wait for enlightenment clinging to delusion, though you pass through countless eons, you will still not be able to gain enlightenment."
(Dahui, in Swampland Flowers, p 43)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 5:39 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Wayfarer said:
But that never ought to be taken as the 'end' of anything. That is what I think he's talking about, and it makes sense to me.

Astus wrote:
This "do not stop prematurely" is a common topic in Zen texts. Or might say in Mahayana, after all, the bodhisattva path takes at least three innumerable aeons, and that length is contrasted with the very short (1-7 lives) shravaka path. Dogen scolded the kensho approach exactly because he saw it as a dead end, and in stead of it put the concept of practice-enlightenment (see: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=20655 ).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 5:12 PM
Title: Re: Turning the light around (asraya-paravrtti)
Content:
鐵觀音 said:
Any suggestion on how to do that?

Astus wrote:
Turning the light around is like self-reflection. Usually the six senses are directed outward, grasping at appearances. Taking a step back to turn the light around means to reflect on the process of perception itself, that is, how the six senses, six objects, and six consciousnesses function. The slipping point here is people conceive turning the light around as if one should find an ultimate watcher/perceiver behind phenomena, and that is why this confusion with Vedanta teachings, even though it is well known that no-self is a fundamental Buddhist doctrine, but apparently people tend to excuse it by contorted and false logic (i.e. there is an "awareness" beyond appearances, and only appearances are not self - and this is exactly the Vedanta argument).

鐵觀音 said:
It's a confirmation that zen practice is a lot more than some glorified relaxation technique.

Astus wrote:
Zen is about direct enlightenment. It has actually more to do with prajna than dhyana.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Meido said:
If indeed "practice is enlightenment itself" accurately captures Dogen's meaning.

Astus wrote:
I think Dogen is quite clear on the matter in his Bendowa, where the matter of "practice-enlightenment" is brought up in the context of the use of zazen after enlightenment. The term goes back to the story of Huairang meeting Huineng (Platform Sutra, ch 7, BDK ed p 67 / http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T48n2008_001#0357b19 ):

When Huairang arrived and did his obeisance, the master asked “Where have you come from?”
[Huairang] said, “Mount Song.”
The master said, “[No matter] what kind of thing, how would it come?”
[Huairang] said, “If you say it’s like a single thing, then you’re off the mark.”
The master said, “Then can it be cultivated and realized (修證)?”
[Huairang] said, “Cultivation and realization (修證) are not nonexistent, but defilement does not occur.”

And this is the explanation of the term from the Soto Zen site's "Basic Key Terms of Soto Zen Teaching" ( http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms07.pdf ):

"Generally speaking, religious practice aims at improving the practitioner’s religious qualities. In that case, the relationship between practice and realization is considered to be that of cause and effect. But shusho itto radically demolishes this generally accepted relationship between practice and realization. It states that they are one and inseparable. This idea is based on the concept of “the self is originally buddha”, the philosophical foundation of the southern school of Ch’an which takes all living beings as originally buddha.
Therefore, we should understand that shusho itto is not merely a philosophical idea unique to Dogen Zenji, but a common view in Zen about practice and realization. In fact, although not expressed explicitly, some other Zen masters, contemporaries of Dogen Zenji, also shared the same philosophical background."

And as Dogen defines zazen:

"The zazen I speak of is not meditation practice. It is simply the dharma gate of joyful ease, the practice-realization (修証) of totally culminated enlightenment." ( https://web.stanford.edu/group/scbs/sztp3/translations/gongyo_seiten/translations/part_3/fukan_zazengi.html / http://www.sets.ne.jp/~zenhomepage/hukanzazenngi.htm )

So, to put it in a larger context, Dogen's neither-thinking (hishiryou 非思量) is not different from Huineng's non-thought (wunian 無念).

"to be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is for the myriad dharmas to be completely penetrated. To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to see the realms of [all] the buddhas. To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to arrive at the stage of buddhahood."
(Platform Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed p 34 / http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T48n2008_001#0351a03 )

So, even if the use of enlightenment for 證 is somewhat questionable, and actually not used that much by translators, it is not misleading.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: How is this not Advaita?
Content:
Astus wrote:
"To say that the mind is rattled and the nature is composed is the view of other ways; to say that the nature is clear and deep and the form shifts and moves is the view of other ways. The study of the mind and study of the nature on the way of the buddha are not like this. The practice of the mind and practice of the nature on the way of the buddha are not equivalent to the other ways. The clarification of the mind and the clarification of the nature on the way of the buddha, the other ways have no share in."
(Dogen: https://web.stanford.edu/group/scbs/sztp3/translations/shobogenzo/translations/sesshin_sessho/translation.html )


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 7:14 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I would think 'openness' is another word for 'empty of own-being'.

Astus wrote:
If it were so, then one should qualify for the level of an arya-bodhisattva, hence stop committing evil things. But since that is not how it's defined, it sounds rather like a temporary experience of oneness that is neither wisdom nor compassion, just an elevated state of mind, i.e. dhyana.


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
anjali said:
one possible understanding is Dogen's comment about forgetting the self and becoming one with the ten thousand things.

Astus wrote:
Dogen doesn't really fit into the whole idea of working for enlightenment, because in his teachings practice is enlightenment itself. ( "The thought that practice and experience are not one thing is just the idea of non-Buddhists." - Bendowa, SBGZ vol 1, BDK ed, p 12 / T82n2582p18b26-28)

仏道をならふといふは，自己をならふなり。 自己をならふといふは，自己をわするるなり。自己をわするるといふは，万法に証せらるるなり。万法に証せらるるといふは，自己の身心および他己の身心をして脱落せしむるなり。
( http://www.sets.ne.jp/~zenhomepage/genzyoukouan.htm / http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT/ddb-sat2.php?mode=detail&mode2=1&num1=2582&num2=&vol=82&page=23 )

"To learn the Buddha’s truth is to learn ourselves. To learn ourselves is to forget ourselves. To forget ourselves is to be experienced by the myriad dharmas. To be experienced by the myriad dharmas is to let our own body and mind, and the body and mind of the external world, fall away."
(Genjokoan, SBGZ vol 1, BDK ed, p 42)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Modernist Pure Land teachings are not so modern
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
As one can see, Dharma-body is leading all beings to Nirvana, whether Amida is a literal Buddha or is symbolic of Dharma-body.

Astus wrote:
The universal dharmakaya is usually called the dharmadhatu, and it is another word for emptiness. But just because things are already empty/pure/buddha it doesn't mean all beings can see that. The question is how to get from delusion to enlightenment. Both Honen and Shinran agreed that they were incapable of following the path in their own lives, hence they selected the simplest possible method to attain birth in Sukhavati and cultivate the bodhisattva path there. To say that Amitabha is a mere symbol for emptiness is to say that there is no Sukhavati to attain through relying on the original vow, hence no Pure Land Path either.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 6:28 PM
Title: Re: Modernist Pure Land teachings are not so modern
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
If the Buddha taught 84,000 paths to enlightenment, then there can be multiple interpretations of Amida and the Pure Land, according to the needs and understanding of the myriad of beings. It doesn't need to be either/or.

Astus wrote:
And there are a good number of interpretations in Buddhism about Amitabha, including the approach of considering him a symbol. However, to take Amitabha as a symbol means that there is no Pure Land Path, only the Holy Path, and that negates the possibility of other power, the central element of the teachings of Honen and Shinran.


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 6:00 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Astus wrote:
"I suggest if we want Zen to be more than a mindfulness practice that will get us an edge in whatever project we want an edge in, we need to reclaim awakening as the central purpose of the project."
( http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2017/05/reclaiming-enlightenment-zen-small-meditation.html )

Reclaiming awakening should start with a definition of what that is. And the one provided in the following article:

"The deepest thing is a collapsing of one’s sense of self and other and finding a place of radical openness.
...
What awakening is, is an existential stance of radical openness. It does not mean there are no blind spots. It does not mean one is free of the play of those endlessly arising constellations of grasping, aversion, and death-grasping certainties. But, it does mean some part of the person who has had this experience sees or knows the freedom as well as being fully in the play of life and death. So, yes, once and forever. And, no, not free from karma or even stupid or possibly evil actions."
( http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2017/05/awakening-zen-footnote-reflection-range-awakening-experiences.html?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork )

What is "radical openness"? Open for what? Since it apparently does not mean freedom from afflictions and delusions, how is it related to any level of realisation as understood in Mahayana? If it were the cessation of the false assumption of subject and object, that would mean attaining at least the first bhumi according to Asanga (Great Vehicle Summary, ch 3, BDK ed p 65-66), but the qualities of one with "radical openness" falls short of an arya-bodhisattva, consequently it is really far from calling it buddhahood. Then how can this kind of awakening be anything related to the teachings of Bodhidharma, Mazu, Linji, and Hakuin?


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 7:09 AM
Title: Re: Shinran Shonin: "There is no Buddha apart from the mind."
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
All the relevant Shinran quotes for this discussion are cited in this article by Alfred Bloom:
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/bloom.htm

Astus wrote:
It provides a quote on the matter of Amida's status:

"Nirvana has innumerable  names.  It is impossible  to give them in detail;  I will list only  a few.  Nirvana  is called extinction  of passions, the  uncreated, peaceful  happiness, eternal   bliss,  true  reality,  dharmakaya,  dharma-nature, suchness, oneness  and Buddha-nature.  Buddha-nature  is none other than Tathagata.  This Tathagata  pervades the countless worlds;  it fills the hearts  and minds  of the ocean  of all beings.  Thus plants, trees and land all attain Buddhahood... Dharmakaya-as-suchness has neither color nor form.  From this oneness was manifested form, called Dharmakaya-as-compassion. Taking  this form, the Buddha  proclaimed  his name as Bhiksu Dharmakara  and  established  the  48  great  Vows....   This Tathagata  has fulfilled  the Vows which are the cause of his Buddhahood, and is thus  called  "Tathagata  of the fulfilled body." This is none other than Amida Tathagata."

Unfortunately I couldn't find an online version of the original (唯信砂文意), in the translation http://shinranworks.com/commentaries/notes-on-essentials-of-faith-alone/ the above does not seem to appear. Furthermore, it does not exactly say that Amida is the dharmadhatu.

As for the quote in the last section where it reads:

"Since Amida became a Buddha
Ten kalpas have passed. So (the Sutra) says.
But he seems to be a Buddha
Older than the innumerable mote-dot kalpas."

That is more poetry than a discussion of doctrinal theories.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 3:43 PM
Title: Re: Has anyone read "Living Yogacara" or "Inside Vasubhandu's Yogacara"?
Content:
ItsRaining said:
Does the East Asian Yogacara (Faxiang) School differ from Indian or Tibetan ones?

Astus wrote:
It is based on Indian treatises, primarily the Cheng Weishi Lun, a great summary written by Xuanzang (602–664). It is somewhat different from the Tibetan versions, as for instance neither the Abhisamayalamkara, nor the Dharmadharmatavibhaga has reached China before the 20th century.

ItsRaining said:
Did they receive influence from the Tathgatagharbha thought from texts like the Shurangama Sutra and Awakening of Faith that's popular in East Asia?

Astus wrote:
It is the interpretation of buddha-nature that made the Faxiang school controversial in the eyes of other Chinese traditions, as Xuanzang and his disciples maintained the doctrine of five gotras.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 6:57 PM
Title: Re: Has anyone read "Living Yogacara" or "Inside Vasubhandu's Yogacara"?
Content:
Astus wrote:
Living Yogacara is good as a general introduction for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_Yog%C4%81c%C4%81ra, i.e. the http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/schools/faxiang.html (Faxiangzong/Hossoushuu).


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2017 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Content:
aflatun said:
No self yes, however I was guessing that in Chan/Zen/Seon the purpose of the inquiry (assuming the use of a question that asks about a "who," as the practice seems not limited to this) was to come to this realization, i.e. the question is unanswerable, there's nothing to find, etc. Thoughts? (as we know I have much to read and learn here, just putting this out there for conversation)

Astus wrote:
The huatou is used as a meditation object, but it goes beyond the usual path by not only removing conceptualisation through concentration but maintaining focused awareness through doubt. So while initially one keeps trying to come up with an answer, in the next phase one does not simply fall into a thoughtless state but cultivates a watchful attention. Practically this covers the methods of shamatha with and without object. And then there is the so called breakthrough when even this watchful attention is gone.

Another fine introductory book for this technique by Guo Ru (a disciple of Shengyan): http://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/EN375.pdf


Author: Astus
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2017 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Content:
Astus wrote:
For a thorough treatment of the topic of huatou practice: http://www.koreanbuddhism.net/bbs/board.php?bo_table=3020

As for "self inquiry", that is a confusing expression. There is no self in Buddhism, so there is nothing to inquire about. Its usual sense of self-inspection, contemplating one's emotional and mental state, that is too generic to be of any use. The four bases of mindfulness (satipatthana/smrtyupasthana) is the closest probably as a methodical approach, and more commonly the practice of confession and repentance. But the Chan approach to repentance is how it's explained in chapter 6 of the Platform Sutra, and that shows how there isn't really any inquiry into anything.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
Like I said, you're making this more complicated and then we have to deal with the complications you posit. What I'm referring to has nothing to do with all that.

Astus wrote:
I think I see it now, and I can only accept that Nichiren's teaching is what it is:

"Because the Odaimoku embodies the essence of the Lotus Sutra, it contains all of the qualities of Buddhahood. This means that by the merit of the five characters, Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo, we can attain Buddhahood by reciting the Odaimoku, Namu Myoho Renge Kyo."
( http://www.nichiren.or.jp/english/teachings/teachings_nichiren/ )

Thank you for your answers.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 5:42 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
You keep trying to define it in a certain way.

Astus wrote:
Yes, a clear definition could be useful.

Queequeg said:
A single moment of thought (一念) is by definition "the Total Field of All Phenomena". The Total Field of All Phenomena is also Buddha.  This is what Zhiyi means when he says, all beings are Buddhas in principle.

Astus wrote:
I think it's important here to be precise about what Dharmadhatu (Total Field of All Phenomena) actually stands for. It means emptiness. Because both nirvana and samsara, the realm of buddhas and the realm of sentient beings are equally and completely empty, they are not different in the ultimate sense. And when one has fully realised universal emptiness, that is, one is free from clinging to views, then no phenomena is attached to.

Queequeg said:
To hear of the Buddhanature is to be apprised of this fact. Once you are told, that is how the Total Field of All Phenomena and the single thought moment are understood.

Astus wrote:
Learning of something is the first step, but it needs to be followed by understanding and realisation in order to be of actual use. That's why there are six identities, not just one or two.

Queequeg said:
Faith in Daimoku means "Trust that all phenomena without exception are aspects of Buddhahood." Notice Zhiyi did not refer to some future Buddhahood. Its an immediate insight. Daimoku is the same insight.

Astus wrote:
Here I cannot see the connection between what Zhiyi says and Daimoku. Zhiyi talks about the highest possible level of enlightenment where one is free from all identification and view. The Daimoku is a set of syllables, that may represent buddhahood, but so does the word "buddha" represent it, and while many people know the word "buddha", that does not make them buddhas, and certainly not immediately.

Queequeg said:
The phenomena which make up moment to moment experience are not some theoretical postulate. They are the actual experience from moment to moment. They are you looking at these words on a screen. Observing the Real Aspect of Reality is this moment to moment experience.

Astus wrote:
Everyone already has moment to moment experience. But very few have realised that experiences are unborn and empty. Even momentariness is a rather unknown teaching, and that is still an approach of the shravakayana far from "perfect and sudden". In other words, just because things are already suchness, emptiness, no self, etc., that doesn't automatically make beings buddhas. Just knowing the words is insufficient for awakening, and understanding their meaning is not enough either. How can it be the whole path to just believe in words one does not even comprehend? It sounds like claiming that merely because people recite the Heart Sutra every morning and every evening that makes them sages, while even if one studies every letter of the sutra it is still not enough to be a noble bodhisattva, much less a buddha. But, I'm happy to be wrong about all this.

Queequeg said:
The faith here is adhimukti - the moment immediately following contact between the sense object and sense apparatus, where the dharma appears but before ideation about it has arisen.

Astus wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Why would a thoughtless state be called faith? Perhaps in some sense of "ultimate faith" can be equated with not having thoughts, but what is that good for? On the other hand, if by "before ideation" you mean nirvikalpa or nisprapanca, that is not the moment before a thought arises, but the freedom from grasping concepts through the realisation of their insubstantiality.

Queequeg said:
In the case of the daimoku, it is the approbation that the dharmas are Buddha.

Astus wrote:
How is that any different from knowing that appearances are impermanent? What I mean is that even thought people know that nothing lasts forever, they cling to them nevertheless, because impermanence is merely an idea and not something fully understood and realised.

Queequeg said:
The faith you're positing is in something far more complicated and complex. An object that is in the future, and so unreal. You're trying to place this into a linear time frame - your default assumption about a gradual path. Some faith in a future achievement. That fits with your assumption about a linear gradual path, but its not applicable here. You have to take what you posit as linear and collapse it into a single thought moment.

Astus wrote:
Could you demonstrate how this works? For example, I like chocolate. In order to obtain chocolate, I need to go to the shop and buy it, then take it home and eat the chocolate. This is a gradual, sequential path, that goes from desire, through effort, to the satisfaction of desire. To collapse it into a single thought would mean a thought that is simultaneously desire, effort, and satisfaction, however, that sounds very much like an impossibility, as either one wants something or does not. Similarly, the path from ordinary being to buddhahood means having all sorts of emotional and conceptual afflictions to not having any of them. Even though afflictions have always been empty, that emptiness is not recognised at all, and that is why they are called afflictions. Of course, if one could just immediately be free from the myriad disturbances in a single moment of thought, that would be truly wonderful. But saying that "afflictions are bodhi" does not really help with that. So that's why I fail to see what you mean by collapsing the linear into a single thought moment.


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
You asked what Nichiren is about, so here's what it means to me.

Astus wrote:
Thank you.

I'd like to sum up what I could take from it, and please tell if you agree with it or not.

"the Daimoku is about seeing Buddhanature in all beings and things." means that "one enters the wisdom through faith", and "The Daimoku is an expression of this faith, a way to put it into practice." So "NMRK is the practice of seeing Buddhanature in all beings and all things", and that "is the theoretical framework." That means "we rely on its expression in our lives, even as we may not understand how it is expressing as us", so to say that "we are aspects of Buddhahood, our activity is Buddha activity" is an article of faith, and that makes the various activities ( " striving to be kind, compassionate, caring, supportive", etc.) "consciously framed in the path to Buddhahood."

To make it even shorter: the path taught by Nichiren is to have faith in inherent buddha-nature and the future achievement of buddhahood, and that faith is expressed in the various practices, like the recitation of the title. Is this an accurate summary?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
rory said:
The answer is Nichiren took Medieval Tendai hongaku doctrine as far as it would go. From Original Enlightenment again talking about a Medieval text Shuzenji-ketsu...Thus the achievment of full enlightenment at the stage of verbal identity is presented as a theoretical possibility, but one limited only to the most capable."

Astus wrote:
Didn't Nichiren teach according to the doctrine of Dharma decline where beings have weak faculties? Dogen did call zazen practice-enlightenment, but that seems qualitatively very far from reciting the title.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 5:43 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
These are 10 important letters identified by Nichiren's direct disciple, Nikko:

Astus wrote:
That is a useful list, thank you.

Queequeg said:
And so you should understand there's nothing to do about delusion.

Astus wrote:
There is a lot to do about delusion, most importantly recognise its empty nature and that way abandon attachment to it. Otherwise it's just samsara-business as usual.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
If you're really interested, I suggested a book by Brook Ziporyn above. Notwithstanding his style of presenting the subject, I think you're going to be surprised.

Astus wrote:
Thanks. And until I can actually obtain that book, isn't there anything online, like in the works of Nichiren?

Queequeg said:
Enlightenment is realizing the real nature of delusions. Once you understand that, what more is there to do with them? What is there to address?

Astus wrote:
So it is accepted in Mahayana in general.

The thorough understanding of cyclic existence -
This is referred to as “nirvana.”
(Nagarjuna: http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/SixtyStanzas.pdf, v6)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
Its hard to discern where you're going with your pronouncements, insistence on standards that are foreign to this particular system of thought, and apparent lack of acknowledgment of answers to previous questions.

Astus wrote:
Simply put, I'd like to make sense of what Nichiren's teaching is about. Reciting the title, the sutra, respecting others based on the assumption of inherent buddha-nature - these are clear elements. What I still find unclear is how one gets from delusion to enlightenment. There is a general description of the bodhisattva path in Mahayana, where one needs to remove the twofold obscuration, so unless the cause of samsara (ignorance) is not accepted within the Lotus Tradition, I'm trying to figure out how those practices of recitation and respect can actually address delusion. I did go through the answers you have provided in this thread so far, I also read some explanations available online from Nichiren followers and some of the works of Nichiren as well, but it is simply not clear.


Author: Astus
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2017 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
You guys are caught up in the connection between the forming of sounds with the mouth, as if that is all that is implied by the practice of Daimoku. Nichiren explicitly taught that the Daimoku, more than just contemplated, more than just recited, must be "read with the body." The Daimoku is actually a teaching on taking the moment to moment nature of life, in the most mundane circumstances, and striving to live in accord with Buddhanature moment to moment, no matter how faintly understood.

Astus wrote:
What is the definition of buddha-nature? I'm asking this because there are quite a few ways to define it, and depending on that there can be different approaches to it. If, for instance, it refers to the presence of various buddha qualities, then a sudden path should mean the immediate presence of those qualities.

Queequeg said:
The practical application is the same whether Buddhanature is seen through insight or through faith. I honor you as a Buddha either way. The experience of honoring you as a Buddha has beneficial effects regardless of how my experience is informed. The effects are different - as they say, we hear the same teaching differently - but like the Dharma rain, it falls and nourishes everyone.

Astus wrote:
That description sounds to me as a skilful means to teach people the practice of humility and respect, but not really anything that brings about insight into interdependence.

Queequeg said:
If any practice can be discerned in the Lotus Sutra, its the propagation of the Lotus Sutra - the exhortation to teach even one phrase, and concomitantly describing the immense benefit of even a person who hears of the Lotus through a telephone game of 50 people and reacts with the slightest joy.

Astus wrote:
How is that any different from accumulating worldly merit that may eventually bring one to studying the Dharma? Furthermore, with propagation as the sole practice actually found in that scripture, it is hard to see how that actually covers the whole of Buddhadharma. It is like saying that obtaining faith in the Triple Jewel is the basis of enlightenment, but at the same time that is only the very first step on the path and not the entirety of the path.

Queequeg said:
There is a strong prejudice against what I will call public, engaged practice in favor of contemplation in the Buddhist community that seems distorted and exaggerated in some sense.

Astus wrote:
I have not seen that raised as an objection here.

Queequeg said:
Is it really such a more effective practice to sit in contemplation rather than engage with others, striving to see their buddhahood and try to relieve their suffering?

Astus wrote:
Interpersonal relations have been the subject of practice from the beginning under the topic of ethical discipline. As for Mahayana, the accumulation of merit - the first three paramitas - are very important. However, without wisdom meritorious acts only generate samsaric results.

"With no understanding of the meaning of absence, 
But engaging only in mere studies 
And failing to engage in meritorious acts- 
Such base people are lost."
(Nagarjuna: http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/SixtyStanzas.pdf, v31)


Author: Astus
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2017 at 7:33 PM
Title: Diamond Sutra Summary by Hanshan
Content:
Astus wrote:
"As all living things are deluded and upset by their views of forms and since their grasp is very hard to break, the Buddha used the Diamond mind wisdom to demolish these views one by one, in order to enable them to perceive the fundamental wisdom of the Dharma-kaya's body. 

At first they clung to the forms of the five aggregates (skandhas) of body and mind and. to the six sense data. They were attached to these forms while giving alms (dana) to seek merits in their quest of Buddhahood. The World Honoured One broke up this by the doctrine of non-attachment.
Next, they clung to the form of Bodhi and the Buddha broke it up by the doctrine of gainlessness.
Next, they clung to the form of Buddha lands adorned by almsgiving (dana) and the Buddha broke it up by declaring that there are no lands which can be adorned.
Next, they clung to merits which would result in the appearance of the Reward body (or Sambhoga-kaya) and the Buddha broke it up by stating that it is not in fact the completely perfect form body (Rupa-kaya).
Next, they clung to the appearance of the Trikaya which the Tathagata possessed and the Buddha broke it up by declaring that the Nirmanakaya is not real and that Sambhoga-kaya is beyond forms.
Next, they clung to the view that the Dharma-kaya must have forms, and the Buddha broke this up by declaring that the Dharma-kaya has none.
Next, they clung to the existence of a true ego in the Dharma-kaya and the Buddha broke it up by declaring that all things are egoless.
Next, they clung to the view that the Tathagata possessed the forms of the Trikaya and the Buddha broke up this by declaring that the real is neither monistic nor pluralistic.

Thus all their false views were broken up successively one after the other, and with the elimination of all idea of form and appearance, the mind had nowhere to alight."

(Hanshan Deqing: The Diamond Cutter of Doubts, in Lu K'uan Yü: "Ch'an and Zen Teaching", first series, p 203-204)


Author: Astus
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2017 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Anonymous X said:
'Grounded in substance' is what I was trying to say when I mentioned a qualitatively different approach.

Astus wrote:
Even the standard bodhisattva path is necessarily grounded in substance, because the practice of the paramitas require the realisation of prajnapramita first. Similarly, in the sravakayana a stream-entrant possesses the correct understanding of the view, but needs to cultivate the path to eventually attain nirvana.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2017 at 6:44 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Anonymous X said:
An intellectual understanding is not what I'm talking about. That is what all of the step by step is based on, not the recognition of your own nature. Zongmi often goes much deeper than how you are pigeon-holing him.

Astus wrote:
Could you provide some quotes from Zongmi on the matter? As for what I said before:

"Even after all-at-once-understanding awakening, the habit energy from innumerable past lives is impossible to eliminate all at once, and so one must engage in a step-by-step practice grounded in intellectual-understanding awakening."
(Zongmi on Chan, p 96)

"If one relies on awakening to practice, it is [intellectual] understanding awakening, but, if one relies on practice to awaken, it is [direct] realization awakening."
(Zongmi on Chan, p 153-154)

Anonymous X said:
When I say automatically or spontaneously, it is not a by-pass of step by step. It is a qualitatively different approach to it that is not time-based on dualistic notions of achievement. There still needs to be an accounting of everything, but it happens in a different field than the doer is operating in. That same letting go is in operation and sudden vs gradual loses its meaning. No reference point. Thusness.....................

Astus wrote:
What you seem to propose is what Zongmi attributes to the Hongzhou school (and he does not agree with it):

"Once one has gained understanding awakening into this principle, everything [partakes of] the spontaneity of the heavenly real. Therefore, the principle of practice should be in accordance with this, and you should not stir mind to cut off the bad, nor should you stir mind to cultivate the path. The path is mind. You should not use mind to cultivate [the path in] mind. The bad is also mind. You should not use mind to cut off [the bad in] mind. When you neither cut off [bad] nor create [karma], but just give free rein to luck and exist in freedom, then you are to be called a liberated person. There are no dharmas to get caught up in, no buddhas to become. It is like space that neither increases nor decreases. What could you possibly add to it? Why is this so? Outside the mind nature there is not even one dharma to be apprehended. Therefore, "just give free rein to mind" is practice."
(Zongmi on Chan, p 86)


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2017 at 6:29 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
rory said:
sure here is a link to aragyo: http://www.nichiren.or.jp/english/temples/hokkekyoji/page2.php
study: http://www.nichiren-shu.org/practice.html
shodaigyo meditation: http://www.shodaigyo.org/
SGI: https://www.sgi.org/about-us/buddhism-in-daily-life/who-is-a-buddha.html

Astus wrote:
Thank you. Apparently http://www.nichiren.or.jp/english/teachings/teachings_nichiren/ teaches the same:

"Because the Odaimoku embodies the essence of the Lotus Sutra, it contains all of the qualities of Buddhahood. This means that by the merit of the five characters, Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo, we can attain Buddhahood by reciting the Odaimoku, Namu Myoho Renge Kyo."

Just as in https://www.sgi.org/about-us/buddhism-in-daily-life/who-is-a-buddha.html:

"As with gold hidden in a dirty bag, or lotus flowers emerging from a muddy pond, we have first to believe our Buddha nature is there, then awaken and develop or “polish” it. In Nichiren Buddhism this can be done through devotion to the law contained in the Lotus Sutra and the chanting of the phrase “Nam-myoho-renge-kyo."

On the other hand, usually in Buddhism one is taught to directly address the cause(s) of suffering and delusion, and one is given ways to remove ignorance. I do not see how repeating a few syllables could ever achieve the same.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2017 at 6:07 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
rory said:
From experience with Nichiren Shu and Kempon Hokke Shu, they advocate study, meditation, sutra chanting, visualization, ascetic practices for the priesthood and rebirth, but they aren't original enlightenment sects...

Astus wrote:
Is there anything available online, or at least in English, on the details of those practices?

rory said:
How SGI, Nichiren Shoshu,  get from only chanting to Buddhahood.  I simply don't know.

Astus wrote:
That's unfortunate, as that is the big question.


Author: Astus
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2017 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Right, cultivation is not natural or automatic, that is why I originally referred to one's Buddhanature, the nature of one's own mind.

Astus wrote:
Realising buddha-nature is how one becomes a buddha, as only buddhas experience directly buddha-nature.

Anonymous X said:
When that is recognized, there is no cultivation in the sense of a doer or a path. It happens spontaneously. Any effort is a falling back into habit energy. You don't break through habit energy with habit energy. It is a letting go of it because there is nothing that needs to be done to it. This doesn't contradict Chan and other schools and I believe inline with Zongmi.

Astus wrote:
The initial awakening given in Zongmi's system is an intellectual understanding of buddha-nature, and that is why it is equivalent to the level of faith, the first section of the 52 stages of the bodhiattva path. The subsequent gradual training means going through those 52 stages. If such progression could happen automatically or spontaneously, there would no be no need to even mention step-by-step training, much less explain it in detail.

"Some say: "One must first all-at-once awaken and then should step-by-step practice." This is in conformity with [intellectual] understanding awakening. (If we speak in conformity with the cutting off of hindrances, this is like the sun's rising all-at-once but the frost's melting step-by-step. If we speak in conformity with the perfecting of attributes, this is like the fact that, upon birth, a child all-at-once possesses four limbs and six senses and as it matures step-by-step perfects its will and functions.) Therefore, the Huayan says: "When one first raises the thought [of awakening], one attains perfect awakening." Only after this are the three worthies and the ten [stages of] the noble one step-by-step cultivated and realized."
(Chan Prolegomenon, in Zongmi on Chan, p 153)


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2017 at 4:10 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
rory said:
"Nichiren's thought focuses on realizing Buddhahood at the state of verbal identity, which he understood as the stage of embracing the daimoku of the Lotus sutra and taking faith in it.[/i]
....but "To say that "walking standing, sitting, and lying down are themselves the essence of calming and contemplation" is thus to express the insight of one awakened to original nonduality, not to deny the necessity of practice."

Astus wrote:
If I understand you correctly, you mean that the recitation of the title is an initial method that is meant to introduce people to the Dharma, but following that it requires continued practice of other methods. That being so, how is recitation followed by what practices?


Author: Astus
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2017 at 4:05 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Concept is symbolic, direct experience is literal. Can you show me advaya? No, but you 'know' when it is the case.

Astus wrote:
In other words, all concepts are symbolic, therefore there is no difference between one word and another, as they are equally symbolic. Advaya is another concept, and it can be explained quite adequately. As for direct experience being literal, it can hardly be that, since it is without letters, i.e. words and concepts, therefore without meaning.

Anonymous X said:
This has something to do with 'hero wisdom'. What it is I can't say. I would think this is a word that would be subject to different interpretations. What is yours?

Astus wrote:
Transcendent vigour is intentional effort in cultivating the paramitas. Cultivation does not happen naturally or automatically, and such ideas only result in indolence and laziness, the very opposites of virya.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Anonymous X said:
It is a symbolic action.

Astus wrote:
If that were not the case, then it would be just rhetoric to trick people.

Anonymous X said:
One can practice for many years and suddenly awaken. All awakening seems to be sudden to my understanding. That would preclude any step by step.

Astus wrote:
Gradual practice followed by a "sudden" awakening is a different issue.

Anonymous X said:
Step by step always has a division of subject/object unless there is first, an awakening to the Buddhanature.

Astus wrote:
Only buddhas are awakened to the buddha-nature.

Anonymous X said:
I never mentioned enlightenment and rarely use the word. If you mean awakening to Buddhanature, why would you need a cause if it is our intrinsic natural state? It only seems like something causes it. If it is a meditatvie state of mind, I would agree with you.

Astus wrote:
There is necessarily a path to liberation, otherwise there is no chance of anyone becoming free from samsara. Assuming there is no cause of awakening is considered a wrong view in Buddhism.

Anonymous X said:
In Dzogchen, they call rigpa, self-sprung.

Astus wrote:
I assume you mean rangjung (rang - self; byung - arise).

Anonymous X said:
Who is working on understanding emptiness? Who is realising it? Who is cultivating it?

Astus wrote:
It's called a bodhisattva.

Anonymous X said:
This is all symbolic, not literal.

Astus wrote:
What is the difference between symbolic and literal? Can you give examples to both?

Anonymous X said:
There is a momentum, but it is non dual and you are not in charge.

Astus wrote:
What is viryaparamita for then?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I recently came across this website here in Thailand. Have you ever heard of this https://soundcloud.com/maha_barami/disregard-all-views?in=maha_barami/sets/voice-of-dharma monk? Luangpor Phosrisuriya Khemarato

Astus wrote:
I did not. However, in the talk you linked the context is different, but it's always good to remind oneself that all views are false.

"Through  the  idea  that  (something  is) agreeable,  (the  ignorant)   become attached  (to  it); separating  themselves  from  that  (idea),   (the   mediocre)   are   free   from   attachment;   when   (the   lofty- minded)  see  (that  everything),  as  the  man  created  by  magic,   lacks an  own  being,  they  attain  nirvana."
(Nagarjuna: https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/jiabs/article/viewFile/8608/2515 56)


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 7:15 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I could use the example of Dogen's premise that just sitting is a natural expression of Buddhahood. Does this mean that anyone who sits zazen is a Buddha and is replete with Omniscience?

Astus wrote:
Of course it does.

Anonymous X said:
I don't think your definition of a sudden path is necessarily accurate. A path is an avenue to something, an attainment.

Astus wrote:
If a path meant something necessarily gradual, it cannot be sudden, so that means there is no sudden path.

Anonymous X said:
Spontaneous awakening is something different. Even with a spontaneous awakening, there will be an acclimation to it that could be seen as taking time, ala step by step, but even this is misleading.

Astus wrote:
Sudden enlightenment does not and can not mean some event without cause, or a chance realisation. As for the teaching of "sudden enlightenment, gradual practice", there enlightenment does not mean the attainment of buddhahood, but mostly an initial understanding.

Anonymous X said:
Once the recognition of Buddhanature takes hold, time is not of any importance. Integration is not seen as a time-space activity. It all becomes spontaneous. All dharmas are apprehended in their original nature. Nothing to do, nothing to be understood, nothing to acheive. Have I missed the point?

Astus wrote:
The traditional bodhisattva path is exactly like that, first working on understanding emptiness, then realising emptiness, and then cultivating the realisation of emptiness, until full maturation as a buddha. That is what the gradual path looks like.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
rory said:
Tendai Shu of course has the concept endon sho

Astus wrote:
And that description does fit into what a sudden path is, what enlightenment at this very moment stands for.

As Seishin quotes Ven Shoshin Ichishima on the issue of ichinen sanzen and its relation to perfect and sudden enlightenment:

"Our World, the Buddha World, the world of sentient beings, or the five aggregates are all in fact the expressions of Middle Way. You can not avoid sufferings. Ignorance and delusions themselves are the object of Enlightenment. There is not any cause of suffering to be cut off. All of Fundamental Ignorance and distorted mind are involved in the Middle Way. There isn’t any special path to be practiced. Our Life and Death are the manifestation of Nirvana."
( https://tendaiuk.com/2016/05/05/ichinen-sanzen/ )


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 6:57 PM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
What issues?

Astus wrote:
E.g.:

How the recitation of the title is enlightenment?
If so, what does enlightenment mean?
Or is the recitation an initial step towards further practice?
If so, what are those later practices?

Queequeg said:
Much of what he taught was Gradual and Distinct. He Taught Sudden and Perfect meditation only in the 7th section of Mohezhikuan. That's the Ichinen Sanzen meditation.

Astus wrote:
Here is something relevant by Rev. Kanji Tamura:

"Meanwhile, the existence of the Buddha as the concrete goal for all sentient beings is revealed in the essential section. According to Nichiren Shonin, the ichinen sanzen doctrine of the theoretical section is just a step to the ichinen sanzen of the essential section. When the land of the Eternal Sakyamuni Buddha, the true realm of Buddhas, was revealed for the first time in the essential section, the theory of mutual possession of ten realms integrated by the realm of Buddhas as well as the ichinen sanzen doctrine is truly realized in this world. (referring to “Open Your Eyes to the Lotus Teaching”)
Comparing both sections, the theoretical section is focused on taking steps upward to the realm of Buddhas while the essential section shows the salvation bestowed downward by Sakyamuni Buddha. Both sections the both upward and downward. However, the theoretical section emphasizes the self-improvement factors of the Lotus Sutra. It plainly says, “May the merits we have accumulated by this offering be distributed among all living beings, and may we and all other living beings attain the enlightenment of the Buddha!” (Chapter 7) On the other hand, the essential section describes Sakyamuni Buddha's vow to save all sentient beings based on His great compassion, saying, “I am always thinking: How shall I cause all living beings to enter into the unsurpassed Way and quickly become Buddha?” (Chapter 16) There, Sakyamuni Buddha’s compassion comes down to sentient beings while sentient beings are to go up to the land of Sakyamuni Buddha by their faith. This two-way connection is the basic form of the essential section.
The ichinen sanzen doctrine of the theoretical section begins with observing the transient mind that changes moment by moment. On the other hand, the ichinen sanzen of the essential section begins with unification between the great compassion of Eternal Sakyamuni Buddha and our mind of faith. In other words, to feel Eternal Sakyamuni Buddha through our existences and our faith is the ‘actuality’ (or realization) of the ichinen sanzen doctrine."
( http://www.nichiren-shu.org/newsletter/nichirenshu_news/nichiren148e.pdf )

From this it seems to me that the practice of calming and contemplation is replaced by the faith that somehow Shakyamuni will transfer his buddhahood to the believers. This "somehow" is explained with the theory of interpenetration and universal buddha-nature. However, I guess because this system is based purely on faith, there is no logical connection provided for the transfer of buddhahood, nor for how realisation could happen by recitation.

Queequeg said:
there is a big chunk of this discussion that is being left out - ichinensanzen, or "Three Thousand Realms in a Single Thought-Moment". Without that, this discussion is pretty much knee capped. You can't understand Daimoku without it. I don't think you can understand Tiantai without it.

Astus wrote:
Ichinen sanzen does not explain how recitation of the title can be equal to enlightenment. Furthermore, there is no connection established between recitation and realising ichinen sanzen. This is what I really feel left out.


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
We're talking about Lotus Buddhism, and so you need to rely on Lotus Buddhism sources for definitions.

Astus wrote:
Isn't there something from Nichiren on the matter that explains these issues?

Queequeg said:
Zhiyi defines the Sudden and Perfect Path as the path based on Buddhanature. The Perfect teaching can appear as a gradual path, but that doesn't mean it is really is gradual path.

Astus wrote:
Zhiyi taught an extensive system of various practices where the progress from ordinary being to enlightenment is logically explained. How can that be replaced by simple recitation?


Author: Astus
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2017 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: If according to Nichiren Buddhism, the Buddha taught people according to their level of understanding or capacity...
Content:
Queequeg said:
Except that it explicitly is not.

Astus wrote:
How so? It lists six identities. Shengyan (Orthodox Chinese Buddhism, p 100-102) sums it up like this:

"The fact that all sentient beings on the earth possess the Tathāgata’s wisdom and meritorious characteristics is Buddhahood in Principle. 
The second level consists of people who have heard the Dharma and already know they intrinsically possess buddha-nature, the potential to become a Buddha. 
People who are practicing the Dharma and can subdue (but not sever) the afflictions occupy the third level. 
Those at the fourth level have purified their six sense faculties and are fast approaching entry into the noble stages. 
The fifth level comprises noble bodhisattvas who have reached the first abiding stage or beyond. 
The sixth level consists of true Buddhas, who have achieved the perfect fruition of unsurpassed, perfect enlightenment."

This is a clear description of the gradual bodhisattva path from the beginning to the end.

Queequeg said:
We're not speaking the same vocabulary.

Astus wrote:
That's possible. In that case, could you clarify please what you mean by such terms as sudden path, etc.?


