﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 24th, 2022 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Depreciating Christmas
Content:
Ayu said:
All this fuss over Chistmas is just stupid.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup. Strongly agree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


Jules 09 said:
The statement that the basis is personal seems dependent on the belief that there is a person...

Malcolm wrote:
Ah, the anatman fetish rears its head, yet again.

Things are never what they seem:

“Likewise, that there is nobody at all who transmigrates from here after death and is born elsewhere, and yet, because there is no deficiency of requisite causes and conditions, the result of karma nonetheless manifests, is like how a fire ignites from the assemblage of its requisite causes and conditions, and not when deficient of its requisite causes and conditions.
1.­53
“In the same way, although things are devoid of owner, devoid of ownership, ungraspable, space-like, and their nature is the mark of illusion, because there is no deficiency of requisite causes and conditions, the seed of consciousness born of karma and afflictions will nonetheless produce the sprout of name and form within whichever mother’s womb one will take rebirth through.

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh210.html#UT22084-062-010-section-1


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Täpa said:
It doesn't seem very easy to receive/ have the correct experience with the correct understanding.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN is absolutely clear on this point, as are the texts, the basis is personal. The “I” thing is just a red herring.

Täpa said:
Think i just got an aha moment because of this. When i first got in touch with spirituality i got the books from Eckhart Tolle and afterwards some books on advaita vedanta and following satsangs on youtube. The i or ego is very stigmatized by ET and AV. It is the biggest culprit according to them and must be banished. So i got " brainwashed" and i unconsciously mix/projected it on dzogchen. If i think about it i cannot really recall dzogchen to be so talkative about the ego, it just says to not grasp or reject any phenomena. So probably this also goes with the ego, to let things be as it is, no grasping or aversion/not accepting or rejecting. If this is correct what i say, than it is a fundamental difference in practice between contemporary non duality circles and dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
People have fetishized anatman to an impractical degree.

Innate self-grasping is the cause of samsara, suffering, and every thing else, but the solution to this is not an intellectual rejection of conventional truth. It’s is to reflect deeply on dependent origination and penetrate it’s true meaning. For that, the Rice Seedling Sutra is exemplary: https://read.84000.co/translation/toh210.html#UT22084-062-010-section-1

When you read and understand this, you will understand why the basis is personal, why it is not a self, and why dependent origination is natural perfection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 8:52 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Täpa said:
It doesn't seem very easy to receive/ have the correct experience with the correct understanding.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN is absolutely clear on this point, as are the texts, the basis is personal. The “I” thing is just a red herring.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 6:54 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Täpa said:
is that lhun grub is said it can manifest anything whatsoever, so why can't it manifest "something" which is not regocnizable as kadag lhungrub and thus buddhahood ends. For some unclear reason(s) "something" has already happened, why can't that happen again? I can think about an analogy from a scientific viewpoint wherein the physical universe is ending in the big freeze and thus the start of a new big bang. Couldn't something similar happen when the last sentient being reaches buddhahood?

Malcolm wrote:
This touches on one of the difficult points of Dzogchen, but basically, Longchenpa says there is no end to sentient beings because there are always latent sentient beings to populate a new universe.

Lhun grub, natural perfection, like dependent origination, is not external. It is a generic quality only of one's mind. Lhun grub is not a field like space/time. Unfortunately, this point is not well understood by most western translators of Dzogchen texts who continue to treat the term "basis" is if it were a transpersonal field.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 6:49 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:



Täpa said:
Thank you for your answer. I watched your short movie on advaita/dzogchen at wisdom publications long time ago and rewatched it now. I understood/remembered it wrong. In the end you say something about dependent origination and afterwards state: but in dzogchen we say lhungrub. Somehow i misinterpreted it for dependent origination not being present in dzogchen. Very happy about getting wrong views dispelled, thanks.

Kai lord said:
In dzogchen, the dependent origination is directly linked to the three types of ignorance and birth or body forming process. If you read about them, you will see how the dependent arising is being applied.

Täpa said:
Do you recommend any literature?

Malcolm wrote:
This is briefly covered in topic two of Buddhahood in this Life, and also the same topic in the Treasury of the Genuine Meaning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Even the tögal postures come from the Kālacakra.

Malcolm wrote:
No they don't.

stong gzugs said:
specifically from Yumo Mikyo Dorje's oral instruction...

Malcolm wrote:
Uh huh. A contemporary of Dangma Lungyal.

There is no textual evidence for this claim.

However, the three postures are mentioned in the sgra thal 'gyur. It is quite unlikely something passed down as an oral lineage would show up in a contemporary text in another unrelated lineage. Occam's razor suggests the opposite, that the Jonang lineage absorbed the three postures after the 17 tantras became more widespread in the 12th century, since Chegom Nagpo had many disciples.

stong gzugs said:
That these postures can be attested to the historical person of Yumo Mikyo Dorje

Malcolm wrote:
Unsupportable claim, there is no textual evidence for this.

stong gzugs said:
Does this change your perspective at all?

Malcolm wrote:
No. I see no evidence of such postures in Lama Dampa's commentaries on the six yogas, and he was in the line of people who received the six limb yoga tradition in the lineage of Thuje Tsondru. He discusses both the yoga of the night and the day in his Tsembupa Avalokiteśvara dmar khrid.

stong gzugs said:
To really resolve this, more evidence will be needed. I believe Kunpang Thukje Tsondru's Kālacakra practice manual may be out there somewhere, but I don't know much about it. Perhaps it has additional information on the origins of the postures? If you do manage to track it down, I'd be highly appreciative to know what you find.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is in dbu med ( https://legacy.tbrc.org/#!rid=W1CZ1300 ), but in reality, this is also not conclusive since he is a 13th century master, who very likely himself received Dzogchen teachings since he taught both Nyingma and Sarma tantras. You would have to have them transposed into dbu chen.

There is no evidence of these three postures in the short six yoga text Kongtrul includes in the gdams ngag mdzod. Also the ten signs of the day and night practice, from a Dzogchen point of view, are mind and not ye shes. So there is that as well.

And the point Dudjom makes is that after one experiences a multicolored thigle, then one drops this, and moves on to the limbs of dhyāna, prāṇāyama, and so forth. And finally, it is only when one gets to the full development of the black pattern in the limb of samādhi after the vāyus have been forced into the central channel and so on, that one perceives the six realms and so on and various buddhaforms. I would agree however, that this stage is basically the same as rig pa tshad phebs, since it is in the limb of samādhi that, according to Kunpang, one attains the path of seeing. The third vision similarly is where one attains the path of seeing in Dzogchen, if one is a rim gyi pa, and not a cig car ba.

I never stated that Kalacakra was not an effective path which leads to the same result. It just takes more effort since it is a path based on mind and not ye shes, as the progress through the ten signs and so on clearly indicate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Meditation belt
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Where can I buy one that I can be sure will fit me? Do people just use yoga straps at times?

Malcolm wrote:
Usually they are adjustable and should measure double the distance between the elbow and the tip of the middle finger. You might try the DC. It is better to have a wide one, since a belt will put a lot of pressure your kidneys, and not in a good way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
On the other hand, unlike Kālacakra, the practice of the path, thogal, begins to eliminate the two coarse obscurations immediately, even though one is still below the path of seeing. This is a unique, uncommon feature of the Great Perfection.

Kai lord said:
Did that occur on the first or second vision?

Malcolm wrote:
In reality, all the visions are the direct perception of dharmatā, but to answer your question, it begins in the first and continues through the second. This is mentioned by Khenpo Ngachung.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 23rd, 2022 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:



stong gzugs said:
Fascinating! So the Dzogchen critique of Kālacakra is basically the same as the Kālacakra critique of Dzogchen (as offered by Tāranatha). That each of the respective practices don't get to the actual, most subtle nāḍīs, vāyus, and bindus.

Does this summary sound correct to you:

Dzogchen and Kālacakra both agree that wisdom engaged with emptiness gives rise to visions, but disagree on (a) how this is best done and (b) what to do with the visions.

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen teachings, the distinction isn't ye shes, the distinction is what is termed the cakṣutattva, which is defined as the undeluded aspect of the eye sense organ.

stong gzugs said:
In terms of (a), Dzogchen would say Kālacakra is limited because we need to have the nature of mind pointed out to us first, otherwise we aren't starting from a place of wisdom,

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. It is just that practically speaking, since even commoners can experience the direct perception dharmatā, it is best they train in the view of the basis, trekcho, for a long while so their grasping dissolves. On the other hand, unlike Kālacakra, the practice of the path, thogal, begins to eliminate the two coarse obscurations immediately, even though one is still below the path of seeing. This is a unique, uncommon feature of the Great Perfection.

stong gzugs said:
Dölpopa's claim is that recognition alone won't do the trick,

Malcolm wrote:
That's because he lived in the generation after Sakya Paṇḍita and was educated at Sakya, and has conservative views about path abhisamaya.



stong gzugs said:
Kālacakra saḍaṅgayoga, he says, is superior because there are no fabricated combinations: after practicing the unique preliminaries (i.e., Kālacakra wen-sum), you allow the empty forms to manifest, and then successively mix them with mind, prāna, bindus, etc. to de-materialize the body and attain buddhahood in one single, coherent, sequential, process.
This is basically no different than how Sachen describes attaining the wisdom body in his Cakrasamvara commentaries.

Malcolm wrote:
Interesting. In what text? The dematerialization due to mixing with empty forms is fairly unique to Kālacakra as far as I know. Is he perhaps relying on the Vajrapani-stotratika, which interprets the Cakrasamvara in light of the Kālacakra?
No, he is relying on the oral traditon of the so-called gsang mtha' tradition which comes through Mal Lotsawa from Naropa. He discusses this in his rims bzhi gyi gdams ngag, vol. kha, 163 line 1-2,  where he states, "Since the entire body up to the crown is filled with ultimate bodhicitta, there is the nonconceptual connate joy, and since all phenomena are seen as empty, an immaculate bliss arises simultaneously. The path mahāsukhakāya arises on one's continuum, the bindu of the mother's blood travels to the solar maṇḍala below the feet, and the body becomes like a rainbow. The bindu of the father's śukra becomes a crescent moon on the crown, and the physical body (lus) transforms into a body of gnosis."


stong gzugs said:
Plus, although the origins of the practice are murky, it's probably the case that tögal derives from Kālacakra anyways, according to Germano and others.

Malcolm wrote:
There really isn't enough time between the introduction of Kalacakra in 1027 and time of Dzeng Dharmabodhi (1052-1168) and Chetsun Senge Wangchuk (circa 1040-1120), the two main promulgators of klong sde and man ngag sde respectively, for it to have had any influence on Dzogchen at all, especially considering the likely date of revelation of 17 tantras and ancillary material, circa 1030-1040.

stong gzugs said:
I get your timeline arguments and think there's a lot of value in this approach. What is the earliest reliably dated text that explicitly mentions the tögal visions?

Malcolm wrote:
The terms trekcho and thogal get used in the seventeen tantras. They can't be dated earlier their appearance with Dangma, and we do not know exactly when he handed them over the Senge Wangchuk, all we know is that it was in the decade after Atisha passed in 1054. They also get used in the klong gsal rab 'byams rgyud, which is considered by some to be the root tantra of klong sde.

Still not enough time to create the elaborate system of Dzogchen teachings present in the seventeen tantras.

However, tradition maintains that Dangma also transmitted a an unwritten snyan brgyud to Senge Wangchuk which the former received from Drom Rinchenbar, who in turn received it from Be Lodo Wangchuk, who received from Nyang Tinzin Zangpo. This aural lineage is much simplified compared to the "dpe" or "bshad", text or explanatory lineage. It does not mention the four visions, nor the postures, and has a presentation of six lamps and it does mention the key point of the channel of luminosity connecting the heart center to the eyes, and the resultant experiential unfolding of awakening in this life, the bardo of dharmatā and so on, and thus is considered to be equivalent with Dzogchen Nyingthik by Longchenpa. It's textual basis is the Thig le kun gsal and Thig le kun 'dus tantras found in the secret cycle. Senge Wangchuk split the lineage, and gave the aural lineage to a person named Shongpa Repa, and the text lineage to Che Gom Nagpo. They were reunited in Kumaraja, and the latter passed them both on to Longchenpa. The second volume of the Zabmo Yangthig is entirely devoted to this aural lineage, and three texts devoted to it form the concluding instructional texts in the Lama Yangthig.

Plus, as above there is klong sde, which has an entirely seperate lineage

stong gzugs said:
Even the tögal postures come from the Kālacakra.

Malcolm wrote:
No they don't.



stong gzugs said:
My hunch (and I think Germano's as well) is that the notion of dzogchen originated as an experience during completion stage deity practice but then gradually became its own sort of standalone radical "no-need-to-practice" practice (per Van Shaik), but eventually started taking on practices

Malcolm wrote:
No. Manjuśrīkīrti, in the Śrīsarvaguhyavidhigarbhālaṃkāra, late 10th century, explicitly identifies Śrī Simha among other figures later associated with Padmasambhava (Bhikṣuni Nandi, etc.) as belonging to a faction that rejected the need for the creation stage altogether. So, on this point, Germano and others are completely wrong. And when one examines the so-called five early sems sde texts, their (qualified) rejection of creation stage ritualism, etc., bears witness to Manjuśrīkīrti's polemic. Also, when looking at Nubchen, we find the same trend. So no, Germano and co. are wrong. Tsongkhapa even goes so far as to identify this passage in his Stages of Mantra when he argues the need for a balanced approach of the two stages, but Yarnell was too tentative to declare that dpal gyi seng ge was actually  Śrī Simha.




one of which was the first two yogas from Kālacakra, dropped all the sexual yogas and imagery (which was already being questioned for its appropriateness for monastics), didn't do any of the "mixing" yogas with the empty forms, but stayed with observing them, and found different experiences emerged when the visions are observed but not mixed with mind, prana, bindus, etc. and this became tögal. This isn't even necessarily all that discrepant from the Kālacakra perspective, because as Kālacakrapada the Elder said in his sadangayoga instruction, the most advanced practitioners can realize mahamudra through the first two yogas alone, and don't need the rest. But, in the tradition, I don't know of any claims of people who practiced on the first two.

I did some searching on this forum to make sure I'm not rehashing old conversations and found https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=210269&hilit=entopic#p210269 where you seem to agree. I'd be curious about whether your perspective has changed since then?

thigle said:
Another point is "thögal", which you can not find in mahamudra...
Not so fast, Kimosabe. My recent studies of Kalacakra and sadaṇgayoga have caused me to revise my opinion about this.
...
Of course there are differences in the two systems, but it is my present opinion (which could change tomorrow based on some reliably datable text) that it is unlikely that thogal developed until after the Kalacakra was introduced to Tibet (1027). My speculation is that these entopic visions were given a context by the elaborate internal anatomy presented in Kalacakra, and this was further developed by yogis in Dzogchen circles.

Malcolm wrote:
I've since changed my mind based on further research. Also, it is unclear that Kālacakra was actually introduced to Tibet in 1027, dates ranges from 1027-1040.

I said that they exist as potential, but not fully formed, just in the same way there is a potential in a seed to produce a huge tree, but without the right conditions, that potential will never manifest. You are basically claiming the tree, with its leaves, branches, fruit, and so on, exist already that tiny seed. That is a confusion between the basis and the result. The Dzogchen critique of the basis being lhun grub, the first of the six incorrect positions of basis, exactly addresses this Saṃkhya error. You can read what Longchenpa says about this in the Tshig don mdzod, or in Buddhahood in this Life.
So it depends on what buddha nature metaphors we prefer. You prefer the seed that is developed by the path, I prefer the buried treasure that is revealed by the path. Dölpopa has his explanations for why the path is still needed, even if the basis and the fruit are the same, and I have pointed others to the relevant sections if they'd like to read more. No need to delve further into this (and the related points about whether jnana is self- vs. other-empty), it's well-trodden territory by now.
The Dzogchen tantras, as well as the commentaries attributed to Vimalmitra, Nyibum, and Longchenpa all reject the idea that basis and the result are the same.

PS: Lochen Dharmaśrī in his dpag bsam snye ma says that Longchenpa only embraces prasangika for study and reflection, but is actually a gzhanstongpa in his practice.
In Candrakīrti's definition of the two truths, ultimate truth is the object of a veridical cognition. It is defined from the subject's side, not the object. This is a large point of contention between the classical Madhyamakas and the Geluk position, which tries to define the two truths from the side of the object.

There is no evidence to support Dharmaśrī's contention, actually. Albion Butter's mongraph on the grub mtha' mdzod addresses this issue at length.

But do you know of any texts or sources (whether source texts, commentaries, or even academic) that note how our views nonetheless subtly shape our practice?
Since Dzogchen is based on direct perception from the start, analytical views really are not necessary, other than to eliminate doubt.

Also, if the view doesn't matter so much, why all this emphasis on what you don't like about gzhanstong and how it's incompatible with dzogchen?
If people become attached to lhun grub through thinking the visions are real or ultimate, they will block their practice. But it also because gzhan stong falls into the error of asserting the basis is only lhun grub, not the union of ka dag and lhun grup, aka, ka dag chen po. One locus classicus for this is the Six Dimensions Tantra

Dharmatā free from proliferation is originally pure;
it is the basis of an intrinsically pure nature;
it is free from words and syllables;
it cannot be confirmed through expression;
it is free from all conventional reification;
it is without concepts of apprehended objects and apprehending subjects;
it is without buddhas and without sentient beings;
it is without phenomena and without perception of phenomena;
no one, no thing, nothing at all.
When the essence of such nonexistence
is confirmed with some words:
the essence is original purity
and the nature is natural perfection.

--Six Dimensions Tantra

And:


All phenomena of the basis must be recognized as essence, nature,
and compassion. All phenomena of the essence must be recognized
as empty. All phenomena of the nature must be recognized as clarity.
All phenomena of compassion must be recognized as all-pervasive.
--The Mind Mirror of Vajrasattva Tantra

So, gzhan stong is not compatible with Dzogchen, though many have tried to reconcile the two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 22nd, 2022 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine
Content:
Soma999 said:
I think it is quiet easy to check if loss of shukras decrease inner fire. After emission, go perform tumo in the cold and see for yourself.

Malcolm wrote:
Never had any problem.

rai said:
Malcolm, I understood you are a Dzogchen practitioner, why would you practice Tummo, is it mainly for longevity?

Malcolm wrote:
I was in a long Lamdre retreat between 1993-1997, where it was very  cold in the winter. Often, when I woke up in the morning, there was a film of ice on my offering bowls.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 22nd, 2022 at 7:17 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Täpa said:
Just out of curiosity: If i understand it well, dzogchen does not rejects anything in particular, but from the teaching/philosophical side there is no dependent origination present in dzogchen, but lhundrup instead. If dependent origination is not present within dzogchen, why would it be a basic point that advaitins reject it?

Malcolm wrote:
Dependent origination is present within Dzogchen. In Dzogchen teachings, the origination of the world and sentient beings is still explained in terms of dependent origination, karma, and affliction. Lhun grub is the condition for ignorance, just as ka dag is the cause. The cosmology of Dzogchen is really no different than that of the Abhidharmakośa.

Täpa said:
Thank you for your answer. I watched your short movie on advaita/dzogchen at wisdom publications long time ago and rewatched it now. I understood/remembered it wrong. In the end you say something about dependent origination and afterwards state: but in dzogchen we say lhungrub. Somehow i misinterpreted it for dependent origination not being present in dzogchen. Very happy about getting wrong views dispelled, thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Lhun grub, as a Tibetan word, is defined in Tibetan as “sus ma byas pa”, literally meaning “not made by anyone,” likewise, dependent origination was not made by anyone. One cannot claim lhun grub exists, because it is empty, ka dag. The same is the case with dependent origination; one cannot say lhun grub does not exist, because it appears, likewise, so does dependent origination. When when one does not recognize the lhun group aspect of the basis as the basis, this kicks off the chain of personal dependent origination as a samsarin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 22nd, 2022 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Täpa said:
Just out of curiosity: If i understand it well, dzogchen does not rejects anything in particular, but from the teaching/philosophical side there is no dependent origination present in dzogchen, but lhundrup instead. If dependent origination is not present within dzogchen, why would it be a basic point that advaitins reject it?

Malcolm wrote:
Dependent origination is present within Dzogchen. In Dzogchen teachings, the origination of the world and sentient beings is still explained in terms of dependent origination, karma, and affliction. Lhun grub is the condition for ignorance, just as ka dag is the cause. The cosmology of Dzogchen is really no different than that of the Abhidharmakośa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 22nd, 2022 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


fckw said:
It is unfortunately very common among both vedantins and buddhists to first misrepresent each others' views, then criticize the misrepresented views, and ultimately "refute" them. Whereas they just "refuted" a strawman representation of the others' viewpoint. (Same is also not too uncommon even among buddhists, by the way.)

Malcolm wrote:
The basic point is that Advaitans, and Hindus in general, reject dependent origination. No Buddhists reject dependent origination, the four noble truths, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
escargotmycargo said:
Malcolm,

Is "strong heat" the heat generated by Tummo practice?

Thank you!

Malcolm wrote:
It means using the two stages, so it is included there, but it is not necessarily gtum mo. For example, vajra recitation was Virupa's main completion stage practice, not caṇḍalī yoga.

escargotmycargo said:
Got it!  So what is it exactly, then?  Is it producing inner heat through some form?  Or does it have another meaning?

Thank you!


Malcolm wrote:
It is related to the idea of heat on the Mahāyāna path of application, where one's samadhi becomes increasingly strong. In this case, in Secret Mantra particularly, weak heat is where you wear your tantric gear only in your house; middling is where you wear it in your yard, and strong is where you wear it to the mall, to test your stability. This what the practice of vratacārya, the conduct of strict observance, involves.  Strong heat is also the time when you are to go find your mudra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


Natan said:
I have it on good authority Bon Dzogchen is really from Vairotsana, and is really Vairo Nyingthig dressed in Bon lore to protect it at a time of when there was persecution of Buddhadharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the fact that the Bonpo's call classify Dzogchen sems phyogs, which is an older name for sems sde lends credibility to that idea. But it also has its own outstanding features. The explanation of sound, light, and rays in the ZZNG in particular is much more detailed than the treatment of the topic in the 17 tantras and commentaries. There is also clear examples of borrowing from the 17 tantras, terms such as bhrigatu, etc.

Natan said:
Is this where ChNN got the details on dang, rolpa and tsal? I've never heard Nyingmapa lamas teach it the way he did like in Crystal and the Way of Light.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this explanation is ChNN’s own synthesis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 11:09 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Appropriation isn’t imitation. It’s a power play.

Virgo said:
But one based on deeper philosophical understanding, right?  I don't think Reindeer Milk will understand the context here.

Virgo

Reindeer Milk said:
The point you miss is that there is no deeper philosophical understanding. The philosophy of the Vajrayana IS Mahayana philosophy. The differences are merely in the externalities, as Malcolm put it. Vajrayana practitioners are essentially Mahayana Buddhists engaged in Shakta-Shaiva ascetic practices, imbuing elements of these practices with Mahayana meaning.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayana practitioners are Mahayanis using body-based methods, which don’t exist in sutra, for a more rapid result, based on an understanding of the body largely derived from Ayurveda, an understanding that Shaivas largely ignore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 11:06 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Reindeer Milk said:
Vajrayana practitioners are essentially Mahayana Buddhists engaged in Shakta-Shaiva ascetic practices, imbuing elements of these practices with Mahayana meaning.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s a short shrift. As I demonstrated, that is a simplistic reductionism which cannot be applied monolithically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 7:02 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:


Reindeer Milk said:
So I'm curious what exactly this statement that "Mantrayana is superior" is resting on. Put another way: how can imitation as a reaction to a religious rival be a superior form of practice in the wider Buddhist tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
Appropriation isn’t imitation. It’s a power play. However, you are focused solely on externalities. Even within Buddhist circles, mahasiddhas like Saraha, Virupa, and Sri Simha express deep skepticism concerning such methods. For example, Shri Virupa writes:

Some are tortured with empowerment rites,
some always count their rosary saying hūm phat,
some consume shit, piss, blood, semen, and meat,
some meditate the yoga of nāḍīs and vāyu, but all are deluded.

You can find similar sentiments in Saraha’s dohas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Altruism
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
I guess it comes down to the individual motivation with these cultural issues we come up against with the Dharma

Have a nice New Year and an auspicious 2023 for your teaching and projects

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks, and you too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"As such, also those become causes for falling into evil destinies since [such practices] are not connected with the two kinds of selflessness and the special skill in means of great compassion, etc. As such, since it is necessary to have practices agreeable for them to follow, anuttarayogatantra is taught to convert them.

Reindeer Milk said:
How does this square with the the notion that the vajrayana is the highest of the vehicles for attainment? Because this appears to me to be justifying this path as an alternative method of Buddhist practice specifically for that time period, not a higher revelation.

Malcolm wrote:
This is merely part of a long argument, the suitability for conversion of the four varnas with the four tantras divisions comes after he sets out the superiority of mantra. He also set out the four tenet systems, etc. in relation the four divisions of tantra.

He begins his section on the superiority of Mantra with the following citation:

Tripitikamala’s Nayatrayapradīpa states:

Although the goal is the same, since it is unconfused,
with many methods, not difficult,
and mastered by those of sharp faculties,
Mantrayāna is superior


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Reindeer Milk said:
Thanks for coming around. Now out of the details and back to the big picture, are you attempting to claim that mandalas, mantras, initiations, goddesses, consorts, subtle anatomy (revelant to the OP such as utkranti/phowa, candali, etc.) are indigenous developments of buddhism that happen to coincidently find parallels in saiva cults? Scholarship of the last few decades show that is certainly not the case. All of these are borrowings from saiva scriptures and cults into buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, in fact abhiṣekas are mentioned in sūtras such as the Lanka, Avatamska, etc., for example, the Abhiṣeka of a bodhisattva on the verge of the elventh bhumi. Abhiṣeka is a vedic rite, as other common Buddhist practices such homa vidhi, etc., from where they are certainly derived. Mantras are part and parcel of Indian culture, also found in the Vedas and the Buddha mentions the Gayatri in the Pali Canaon, so not Śaivaite. The anatomy of the body in the Buddhist tantras depends on Ayurveda. Also descriptions of nāḍīs is found in the Upanishads, the Candogya to be specific, as are also the idea of vāyus. Prāṇayāma was common practice amongst everyone, etc.

I had a discussion with Shaman Hatley (a specialist in Śaiva tantras, you should read his thesis, you will find it interesting: https://media.proquest.com/media/hms/ORIG/2/kmBHH?_s=C5LUzKB4%2F3sb51AIqrc2CffGooY%3D ), about this, and one key difference between the Buddhist and Śaiva approach to nāḍīs, vāyus, and bindus, is the complete disregard in the Śaiva literature to the formation of the body.

But in such sūtras as the Garbhavikranti sūtras, and so on, there are vāyus for every stage of gestation, as well as detailed presentations of the development of the human body in mother tantras, etc., all of which are based on such texts as the Carakasaṃhita, and the later Aṣṭaṅgahridayasaṃhita  by the Buddhist author, Vagbhata.

Moreover, the concept of "bindu" in the Guhyasamāja tantras is not the same at all as the concept of bindu in the mother tantras.

Frankly, the usual Buddhist comparison for caṇḍalī yoga, etc., and conduct appealing to those who follow Śiva is not drawn from Śaiva scriptures, but rather a famous passage found in the Upanishad, Brihadāranyaka 6:2:13:

Additionally, Gautama, women is the fire,
her private place is the fire pit
her pubic hair is the smoke,
entering into that is fuel.
her sexual fluids are the spark;
in such a fire as that,
a man burns the seed of the gods—
from that a man emerges.

Sonam Tsemo cites this passage in his 12th century General Presentation of Tantras. He states:

"As such, also those become causes for falling into evil destinies since [such practices] are not connected with the two kinds of selflessness and the special skill in means of great compassion, etc. As such, since it is necessary to have practices agreeable for them to follow, anuttarayogatantra is taught to convert them.

Thus, I think it is a complete overstatement to insist that all these Buddhist yogas necessarily come from Śaivism, especially, as Mallinson recently proved, Hatha Yoga is based on a Buddhist text called the Amṛtasiddhi attributed to a Virupa, likely the student of Lakṣminkāra, not Śrī Virupa of Lamdre fame.

The sources of the development of Vajrayāna are hetrogenous and complex, a far more complicated issue than Sanderson's simplistic reductionism would have one believe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Altruism
Content:


Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
We're addicted to these arguments, conflicts, cancelling each other out let's be honest

Malcolm wrote:
That depends upon one's motivation. If someone is arguing to benefit someone, protect the Dharma from misinterpretation, sharpen their understanding, and so on, then it is fine. If their purpose is merely to increase their own egos, etc., then it is not fine and is negative.

Kindness doesn't always look kind. Sometimes it looks a little harsh.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Explain Pure Lands and the differing views on them?
Content:
James84 said:
What exactly are Pure Lands and how are they viewed in different schools? Coming from a Theravada background I am a bit confused by them and it seems kinda "too good to be true".

Malcolm wrote:
The nearest śravaka equivalent is the five pure abodes where never-returners take birth. It's basically the same idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
escargotmycargo said:
Malcolm,

Is "strong heat" the heat generated by Tummo practice?

Thank you!

Malcolm wrote:
It means using the two stages, so it is included there, but it is not necessarily gtum mo. For example, vajra recitation was Virupa's main completion stage practice, not caṇḍalī yoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Kai lord said:
A lot of misunderstanding could have been avoided if this thread is renamed to "Advaita Vedanta and Bon Dzogchen "

Since Buddhist Dzogchen is nowhere compatible to Advaita Vedanta and someone says that his knowledge of Bon Dzogchen shows otherwise. Then good..... as it can be easily deduced from there that Bon Dzogchen is not the same as Buddhist Dzogchen and should be treated separately and given different treatment Instead of having groups of people talking pass each other because they think both Dzogchen is the same deal.

Natan said:
I have it on good authority Bon Dzogchen is really from Vairotsana, and is really Vairo Nyingthig dressed in Bon lore to protect it at a time of when there was persecution of Buddhadharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the fact that the Bonpo's call classify Dzogchen sems phyogs, which is an older name for sems sde lends credibility to that idea. But it also has its own outstanding features. The explanation of sound, light, and rays in the ZZNG in particular is much more detailed than the treatment of the topic in the 17 tantras and commentaries. There is also clear examples of borrowing from the 17 tantras, terms such as bhrigatu, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen critique of śunyatābimba is that these are never developed. They are dharmatā but they are never developed beyond their initial appearance. Dudjom discusses this in his big red book.

stong gzugs said:
This is interesting. I have a few responses here:

Clarifying Dudjom. Thanks for pointing out this quote. The footnote to this critique points us to the following. As I noted above, the rainbow body isn't the goal of Kālacakra, but I'd still be curious to know more. But Volume 4 of the Treasury is the history volume, isn't it? Do you know what's being pointed to here?

Malcolm wrote:
See pg. 315, iv of the section of dhāraṇa in Esoteric Instructions, which is book 8, part four.

Big Red Book said:
The black outline (re-kha nag-po) is the form assumed by the central channel as a mark of success in the practices of vital energy according to the Kālacakra Tantra. Although all the pure appearances of the deities are reflected within it, the body of rainbow light cannot be obtained. Refer to Jamgon Kongtrul, shes-bya kun-khyab mdzod, Vol. 4, p. 185.
Also, this seems to be talking about the empty forms in the first yoga

Malcolm wrote:
It's talking about dhāraṇa.



Big Red Book said:
Mipham vs. Dudjom. Mipham says Kālacakra and Dzogchen both lead to the same outcome. Dudjom seems to be saying something different based on your interpretation? So how do Nyimgapas reconcile these contradicting views?

Malcolm wrote:
Result is same, path of lower tantras like Kālacakra, etc., slower.

Big Red Book said:
Tāranatha's Critique of Dzogchen. What you state (that the empty forms aren't developed in Kālacakra) is basically the inverse of why Tāranatha says that Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen (while superior to other practices, like conceptual meditations) are nonetheless limited practices. In fact, he says they should be described as a "nominal" completion stage rather than the actual completion stage, in part, because they are fabricated combinations of two different causes, each having a (1) non-conceptual meditation combined with (2) tummo, karmamudra, tögal, etc. He compares it to how a single solid beam can better support a home than a bunch of plant stalks tied together.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen critique is that the mahāyoga tantras, including Kālacakra, rely on relative nāḍīs, vāyus, and bindus.

Big Red Book said:
Kālacakra saḍaṅgayoga, he says, is superior because there are no fabricated combinations: after practicing the unique preliminaries (i.e., Kālacakra wen-sum), you allow the empty forms to manifest, and then successively mix them with mind, prāna, bindus, etc. to de-materialize the body and attain buddhahood in one single, coherent, sequential, process.

Malcolm wrote:
This is basically no different than how Sachen describes attaining the wisdom body in his Cakrasamvara commentaries.

Big Red Book said:
Plus, although the origins of the practice are murky, it's probably the case that tögal derives from Kālacakra anyways, according to Germano and others.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't think so. Why? Because there is also klong sde and yang ti. These have very separate lineages, they also deal with dharmatā pratyakṣa. It is more likely that, in the case of man ngag sde that the basis of the man ngag sde tantras is an aural lineage connected with Vimalamitra, just as kpong sde is the aural lineage connected with Vairocana, and both of them were disciples of Śrī Simha.

There really isn't enough time between the introduction of Kalacakra in 1027 and time of Dzeng Dharmabodhi (1052-1168) and Chetsun Senge Wangchuk (circa 1040-1120), the two main promulgators of klong sde and man ngag sde respectively, for it to have had any influence on Dzogchen at all, especially considering the likely date of revelation of 17 tantras and ancillary material, circa 1030-1040. Dangma Lungyal gave the 17 tantras to Senge Wangchuk in the decade after Atisha's passing, and had held onto them for 30 years, meaning he had them by 1034 at the latest, by my estimate. Tashi Dorje's dates, which are a bit inaccurate, would push the date of Senge Wangchuk's rainbow body back to 1030, but since it is clear in the accounts that he met Dangma after Atisha's passing in 1054, this isn't possible.

stong gzugs said:
This is supported by the analogies of buddha-nature of the treasure buried in the backyard of a poor person, the statue with rags covering it, etc. All the buddha qualities are fully formed.

Malcolm wrote:
And thus, as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explained repeatedly, gzhan stong and Dzogchen are incompatible.

stong gzugs said:
Mipham says exactly the same thing as Dölpopa here, is his view also incompatible with Dzogchen?

The primordial endowment of qualities such as the powers are spontaneously present by nature from the beginning [like] the quality of a functional knife to cut, the quality of a clear mirror to shine reflected forms, and the quality of a gem to be luminous and bestow desires; however, they are like the knife in a sheath, the mirror put in the box, and the gem covered with mud. When the obscurations are cleared, the qualities do not newly arise, but appear manifest as if newly arisen.

Malcolm wrote:
The removal of taints is a condition for the appearance of naturally perfected qualities. Lhun grub does not really mean "spontaneously present." Lhun grup is a translation of anabhoga/nirabhoga, which means "effortless," which is attested in Mipham's Sanskrit glossary in the Vajrayāna section. In other words, when taints are removed, qualities manifest naturally, without effort. The example given is like a crystal-- normally, it is clear, but when held in the light, it projects a spectrum. We can say that the potential to project a spectrum exists as a potential, but only manifests under certain conditions. Also Drakpa Gyaltsen points out with respect to qualities being naturally perfected, natural perfection and transformation are non-contradictory. According to your view, the crystal will always be project a specturm whether there is light or not.

stong gzugs said:
But I wouldn't deny someone like you who thinks they're created.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't say they were created. I said that they exist as potential, but not fully formed, just in the same way there is a potential in a seed to produce a huge tree, but without the right conditions, that potential will never manifest. You are basically claiming the tree, with its leaves, branches, fruit, and so on, exist already that tiny seed. That is a confusion between the basis and the result. The Dzogchen critique of the basis being lhun grub, the first of the six incorrect positions of basis, exactly addresses this Saṃkhya error. You can read what Longchenpa says about this in the Tshig don mdzod, or in Buddhahood in this Life.

stong gzugs said:
I especially see a contradiction here where you simultaneously claim that the view doesn't matter for tantra, but then try to suggest that gzhan stong as a view disqualifies one from practicing certain tantras. Maybe I'm missing something.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I am saying that it only matters if one is a sutra practitioner. For Vajrayāna people, the view is not a result of intellectual analysis. It's experiential.

stong gzugs said:
Related to the above, I'd just call readers to read for themselves Mathes' 2001 https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/jiabs/article/download/9175/3033 and I think most would come to the same conclusion I did: that Taranatha's reading is logically consistent and one valid reading of many. I agree with Mathes that his argument wouldn't work without the Ratnagatravibhāga clearly supporting the gzhanstong view:
There is nothing to be removed from it / And nothing to be added.
The real should be seen as real / And seeing the real / You become liberated.
The [buddha] element is empty of the adventitious / Which are by definition separable.
But, it is not empty of the unsurpassable qualities / Which are by definition not separable.
Ratnagotravibhāga 1.154–55

Malcolm wrote:
If someone realizes the emptiness of all things, then of course, one will also naturally produce all qualities of realization, just as when the sunlight hits water vapor it projects a spectrum, a rainbow. You can't say that water vapor's potential to project a spectrum is alienable. You also can't say that the water vapor will always produce a spectrum when there is no light, or the light is not shining in the correct way, or one is not standing in the correct place.

stong gzugs said:
I don't, I think that's how the Geluk interpret Prajñāpāramita: as a non-affirming negation. And Kālacakra explicitly denies that its emptiness is that type of non-affirming negation (e.g., as arrived at by analyzing things into their parts and finding nothing). Tāranatha, in his commentary on the Heart Sutra, interprets prajñāpāramita differently as the wisdom that realizes the emptiness of the skandas, but which is not itself that emptiness. Hence, gzhanstong.

Malcolm wrote:
If the jñāna that realizes the emptiness of the skandhas isn't also empty, it cannot function as jñāna, because uncompounded entities cannot function at all:

For those whom emptiness is possible, for them everything is possible.
For those whom emptiness is not possible, for them nothing is possible.
MMK

But that does not mean one's consciousness (shes pa, jñā) does not have the possibility to realize emptiness of itself and everything. That is part of its potential. That potential is inalienable to consciousness, but if it isn't empty itself, free from all extremes, it cannot never realize that potential. A mirror always has the ability to reflect, that potential is inalienable to a mirror, but that does not mean the mirror is not also empty.

If there were something subtle that was not empty, there would be something subtle to be empty;
but as there is nothing that is not empty, where is there something to be empty?
MMK

This is why the actual view of Dzogchen is "free from extremes, totally complete" ( mtha' dang bral ba yongs du rdzogs pa ).


stong gzugs said:
Also, the Jonang didn't invent the three turnings heuristic. The Jonang heuristic is that of the four yugas that emphasize the Three Cycles of Bodhisattva Commentaries as the golden age dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Also just a gimmick. Our gimmick is that Dzogchen is the first Dharma that was ever taught in this mahākalpa by the nirmāṇakāya Khye'u Nangwa Dampa during the first eon of the mahākalpa, arising from the dharmakāya of the last buddha of the previous mahākalpa.
And, there is no Indian gzhan stong at all.
I prefer Brunnhölzl's https://www.tsadra.org/2011/03/24/prajnaparamita-indian-gzhan-stong-pas-and-the-beginning-of-tibetan-gzhan-stong/ that there is plenty of evidence that Dölpopa's gzhan stong views existed in India to your assertion. (This is a summary article of a much longer book that provides further proof).

Brunnhölzl said:
Among modern scholars, it seems to be generally accepted that Dol po pa was the first one to use the terms rang stong and gzhan stong in a systematic and extensive way and widely propagated the gzhan stong system ... However, as shown above, at least in terms of the contents, if not the name, there clearly were Indian and Tibetan precursors who discussed crucial elements of what came to be called the gzhan stong view, though they did not use that term and did not necessarily give full-fledged or systematic presentations of gzhan stong as found in later Tibetan works. Therefore, it seems to be justified to refer to the authors of the Bṛhaṭṭīkā and the Āmnāyānusāriṇī, Sajjana, and Ratnākaraśānti as Indian forerunners of “Great Madhyamaka” as an equivalent of the gzhan stong view. The same applies to Btsan kha bo che and Smon lam tshul khrims as early Tibetan examples of this view before Dol po pa.

Malcolm wrote:
He also identifies Jagaddalanivāsin (and his Āmnāyānusāriṇī) and Skyo ston Smon lam tshul khrims are mentioned as precursors of the gzhan stong view that Tibetan proponents hadn't mentioned before.
Correct, Indian "gzhan stong" is just the false aspectarian yogacāra of Ratnakāraśanti, as Rongton and Gorampa point out, which I mentioned above. Which means the gzhan stong is Tibet is just a riff on false aspectarian yogacāra.

By the way, everyone calls their own madhyamaka "great." The first to use the term in Tibet was Kawa Paltseg, Vimalamitra's student.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but this is just not present in the Tibetan text at all. AndI frankly I trust Krishna Pandita’s understanding of the text above Sanderson’s.

Reindeer Milk said:
In these last few pages of the discussion you brought up these tantras claiming you “discern” no Saiva influence on them

Malcolm wrote:
Appropriation is not "influence," it's a deliberate seizure.

And Guhyasamāja lacks the subjugtion of Maheśvara myth, which is central the Laghusamvara tradition, and the subjugation of the worldly gods central to the Hevajra myth.

Guhyasamāja does not rest on a corpse of anyone, and has more in common with the yoga tantras than the yogini tantras. As for antinomian practices, these are also found in lower tantras, but they are not specifically Śaivaite in form, and have more in common Mimamsa ritualism.

Padmavajra's text is written after the yogini tantras were widespread, since he quotes several of them.

Aveśa is not possession. It is used in every initiation after the guru has instructed the students how to generate themselves as a given deity. He then instructs the students to visualize the jñānasattva of the deity entering their generation as samayasattvas. This is not "possession." This is a yoga.

Reindeer Milk said:
…The passage contains a set of instructions in which a Buddhist sādhaka is essentially told to disguise himself as a Śaiva ascetic in order to deceive a community of outcastes into giving him one of their daughters as tribute in exchange for a fake Śaiva maṇḍala initiation. It would seem logical to pause and examine the reasons that a Vajrayāna Buddhist ascetic performing the caryā and vrata might be told to disguise himself as one of any number of Śaiva ascetic orders, particularly given the fact that the later, standardized versions of these practices in the yoginītantras are widely hypothesized as Buddhist appropriations of forms of Śaiva asceticism.

Malcolm wrote:
I still don't buy Sanderson's reading of the passage, for example, he alters dharma and siddhanta, when the Sanskrit and the Tibetan are clear. It reads more clearly as a conversion method than a method of defrauding poor people of their daughter.

Sanderson's claim is that this wandering guy, who dresses up with the accouterments of Heruka, is just trying to trick these poor folks by acting as a Śaiva guru. I agree one could read it this way, but I remain unconvinced this is actually what is happening in this passage. The problem is that there is no commentary on this text, and as is often the case in these texts, what one thinks is happening when read literally, is not what is intended at all.

Incidentally, one cannot engage in this vratacārya until one has generated strong heat on the path of application. One of the key points of the tale of Kṛṣnācarya is that he is keen to enter into vratcārya before he is ready, disobeys Jalandrapāda, and so he experiences many obstacles.

I also never disputed the idea that the Yogini tantras appropriated Śaiva forms, that was not the point of my objection. I mentioned that Buddhists deliberately taught the various classes of tantras in order to convert various casts to Buddhism.

As to Krug's point, Virupa passed as a sadhu, and often in those days one could not distinguish whether a yogi was Buddhist or Hindu, as illustrated by Virupa's encounter with the King of Varanasi. Later, Virupa was appointed the head pandita by another king because his superb knowlege of Sanskrit, until people figured out that he was paying homage to the PP in 8000 lines, and not the Śiva linga. Later in the tale, Śiva is becomes a disciple of Virupa, in order to prevent the latter from destroying the Somanātha linga.  One could argue, following Krug, that Virupa used deception and dissimulation to gain access to elites in order to convert them through feats of magic.

What's missing in all these accounts of the Yogini tantras is that this was a deliberate, self-conscious method of conversion employed by Buddhists, a deliberate program for appropriation and conversion. From a sociological POV, that's obvious.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Kai lord said:
they think both Dzogchen is the same deal.

Malcolm wrote:
It is, so this is why there is a problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Garuda209 said:
@malcolm when we met in Dzamlingar a while ago you briefly mentioned that there was a reference to Özer Chenma in the Dra Thalgyur tantra, is this correct? Could you say more?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is. There are five yidams mentioned in the sgra thal gyur: Vajrayogini, Marici, Candika, Yamantaka, and Acala.

The commentary has details about these sadhanas, but the sadhanas themselves have not survived, so far as I am aware.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 10:38 AM
Title: Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The point is that it is not actually important to retain semen itself. Women do not retain their reproductive tissue, why should men? This inconsistency is rarely noted.

haha said:
Semen itself is not the point but one will not get those points without retaining the semen.

First, these types of narratives are not written from female prospective. Those texts are mostly composed by male or in male dominated society.

“Women do not retain their reproductive tissue” is really a different argument. Not in Buddhism but at least in Hinduism or in Daoism, they talk about stopping of female monthly cycle as a first sign when they engaged in these types of practices. And, it is inappropriate to practice if they want to live the household life.

Malcolm wrote:
You do understand that this unconvincing bullshit, right?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 9:29 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
BTW, I thought I had corrected a hasty error I made, but I seem to have failed. The Guhyasiddhi indeed mentions the Guhyasamaja, but the Śaivaite ritual Sanderson imagines is nowhere to be found in the text.

Reindeer Milk said:
Maybe check the footnotes on page 144. The location and sanskrit is reproduced there. Here’s the link: https://academia.edu/resource/work/3621440

Pages 144-145 give the English:
He should wander in other lands, in which he is known nowhere. With firm resolve the Sadhaka should enter among untouchables who are devotees of Siva and recognize no other deity as absolute, who are inspired by the Siddhanta, always attached to [the rituals of] bathing and deity-worship, and dedicated to the doctrines of its scriptures through some slight degree of literacy. After entering among them in the guise of an untouchable votary(candalaganah), he should, while cultivating insight into the highest wisdom, instruct them in the religion of the Siddhanta established in such scriptures as the Kalottara, or the Nisvasa;334 and in order to win their trust he should take as his disciples all those who are enjoined by the Tantra after [initiating them before] the Initiation Mandala [of Siva].Then he should give back to them all the goods and money that they will previously have gathered and given him as their offering to their Guru and take [instead] a girl of theirs with a beautiful face and eyes. After acquainting her with the essence of the Mantras and making her adhere to the rules of an initiate that wise one should practice the Vidya observance [with her], after resolving to become a Buddha.335

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but this is just not present in the Tibetan text at all. AndI frankly I trust Krishna Pandita’s understanding of the text above Sanderson’s.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Reindeer Milk said:
One can see it as symbolic, but from my discernment avesa enters the picture in Buddhists practice in term and concept as was said, and for one last reference before I move on:

https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/28567/1/10672726.pdf
According to Anandagarbha, when the Lord Vajrasattva enters (the pupil) and pervades him,
the excellent knowledge such as the five supernatural knowledges will be generated within
him. (Tattvaloka, TTP. Vol. 71, No. 3333, p. 191-3-1-3).

Malcolm wrote:
Then I think you don't really understand the point, since you are relying on someone who does not understand the point.

BTW, I thought I had corrected a hasty error I made, but I seem to have failed. The Guhyasiddhi indeed mentions the Guhyasamaja, but the Śaivaite ritual Sanderson imagines is nowhere to be found in the text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:


Reindeer Milk said:
From: https://brill.com/display/book/9789004508446/BP000021.xml

Vajrasattva in the form of the sattvavajrīmudrā thus enters into the student as he drinks the water. “In order for the jñāna to enter, […]” concludes Śākyamitra in his commentary, “[…] the sattvavajrīmudrā is positioned in the student’s heart, and the heart[-mantra] is recited.”7 As Śākyamitra, explains, this is the crucial moment of entry (Skt. āveśa), when the buddhas’ jñāna enters inside the disciple for the first time.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a "possession." There is no external Vajrasattva that enters someone. It's purely symbolic, it is a kind of introduction to one's own nature. Sanderson is not a practitioner, he is not even a Hindu or a Buddhist.

Let’s look at avesa in the Kapalikas. From: https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00710898/document

Reindeer Milk said:
Near the end of the passage cited below, it is also stated that the practitioner will thus possess all the qualities that Bhairava has


Malcolm wrote:
Some Hindus have an externalist view, some Saivas may believe that some external being called Bhairava enters them. But we Buddhists don't. For us, the word aveśa simply means "to enter." In some literary context it certain can mean possession, but not in a Buddhist context in a Buddhist rite. I doubt whether he really understand the Hindu context either. He just reads Sanskrit. He's never received any instruction on these things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Direct perception of interdependent origination
Content:
sun-and-moon said:
What are traditional mahayana meditation instructions for a practitioner to cultivate direct perception of interdependent origination of momentarily arising dharmas in the mind?

Malcolm wrote:
In Mahāyāna, we are trained to see emptiness. Once emptiness is seen, the forward dependent origination is broken. We don't really care about observing mind moments. We cultivate śamatha in order to have a stable basis for insight into emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


James Sealy said:
I doubt if you have received these ZZNG teachings...

Malcolm wrote:
I received teachings on ZZNG from Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, as well having received the entire cycle from Chapur Rinpoche in person. I have it next to me at my desk, I consult it often.

For example, in the Commentary on the Six Lamps, Ornament of Sunlight, it states:


Since the essence of the basis of all (kun gzhi) is empty and lacks identity (bdag med), it is called "The dimension (klong) of great emptiness." Because there are no phenomena (bon) such as samsara, nirvana, and so on, that do not arise from that dimension, "everything arises."

Or,

"The trio of mother, child, and potential (rtsal)" means that in the dharmatādhātu (bon nyid kyi dbying), the mother, the basis of all (kun gzhi), is empty and lacks identity; in the pristine consciousness of the mind essence (sems nyid), the child, cognizance (rig pa), is intrinsically clear and without grasping; the nonduality of the mother and child in the mind (blo) is called "potential."


There are many such statements in the Tibetan text of the ZZNG, which I read in Tibetan.

Just accept that you don't understand these teachings as well as you claim, keep studying, and practicing. You will get it eventually. Even better, learn Tibetan.

I am not saying this to be mean, but frankly, the Bonpo Geshes are not teaching their tenet systems in detail. I have the entire curriculum of Bonpo teachings from Abhidharma to ZZNG and everything in between. What non-Tibetan students receive from them is ZZNG, and other Dzogchen cycles, and useful rituals, but no education in Bonpo Madhyamaka, Perfection of Wisdom, Abhidharma, etc. All of these are completely present in the Bon school and are very interesting. But sadly, they are not being taught.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 19th, 2022 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:



Reindeer Milk said:
I think the earliest saiva tantra, as a surviving text, is from around the mid-5th century CE.

Malcolm wrote:
When considering Vajrayāna, I think this focus on Saiva ritualism is excessively myopic.

For example, the Guhyasamāja, Mahāvairocana-abhisambodhi, Susiddhikara, Sarvatatathāgatatattvasamgraha, Vajraśikara, etc. owe nothing to the Saiva tradition at all, as far as I can discern.

Reindeer Milk said:
They certainly do. Sanderson touches on Guhyasamaja in this excerpt from his Saiva Age:


The Guhyasamaja: copulating deities, sexual initiation rites, and the sacralization of impurity said:
A further borrowing from the Vidyapıtha is evident in the introduction of a crucial element of what that tradition calls ‘non-dualistic practice’ (advaitacarah) and both traditions call ‘practice free of inhibition’(nihsankacarah), namely the offering to the deities of such ‘impure’ substances as urine, faeces, semen, and blood, and their sacramental consumption.

That Tantric Buddhists possessed the specialized knowledge of the Saiva Mantramarga that would enable them to draw at will on the Saiva Tantras in this period is placed beyond doubt by an early exegetical work in the tradition of the Guhyasamaja. For this, the Guhyasiddhi of Padmavajra, written in all probability in the eighth century, assumes that any initiate in the practice of this Tantra is not only familiar with the Saiva scriptures but is able to enact their rituals by assuming the role of a Saiva Guru, implying thereby that such initiates were typically converts from the Mantramarga with experience both of its texts and of its practices. For it tells the adept of this tradition that in order to acquire the female consort required for his post-initiatory observance he should enter the home of a family of untouchables who are observant devotees of Siva, reveal to them one of the Saiddhantika scriptures—the text specifically mentions the Kalottara and the Nisvasa—give them Mandala initiation [following this scripture], and then return to them the daksina that they will give him, taking a girl from them in its place.


Malcolm wrote:
Ok, this is an error. First, the text makes no such mention of such a procedure. It can't possibly be from the 7th century, since Padmavajra cites the Hevajra Tantra, the Yoginisaṃcarya, and other ninth century texts. It also does not cite the Guhyasamaja.


The Sarvatathagatattvasamgraha and the First Inroads of Sakta Saivism: Possession, Goddesses, and the Sacralization of Sex said:
Here we find for the first time the requirement that candidates enter a state of possession (avesah) at the time of their initiation...

…The second is the incorporation of sexual intercourse...



Malcolm wrote:
Again, this is just Sanderson's complete lack of understanding of Vajrayāna. It is clear he does not understand what he is reading.

"Avesa" is not possession, it's a summoning of the jñānasattva. There is no sexual union in the text at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 18th, 2022 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine
Content:
haha said:
What Rinpoche said is very correct and his presentation emphasizes in the rigpa. The clear light mind has different methods on which those texts are focused on. Even though they (clear light mind and rigpa) are essential same, but they have different approach of the path (i.e. how to proceed).

Then, one may have impression of my words that this clear light is depended on the outer bodhicitta (semen). That is not what I am presenting. It is the skillful method of harnessing such and such things. Both systems have different approach. For example, one focused on cessation of dualistic thoughts/concepts by using certain channels. In another, one tries to recognize it while there are thoughts.

The great fool, who seeks for worldly impermanent bliss, still does not find it. But the wise will cast way even the attainment of bliss of empire for liberation. So, it is the different approach.

There are some research papers about what happens during the ejaculation (i.e. Neurons for Ejaculation). It is not just mere casting way the wastage product; there are whole physiological processes.

It is suggested that one should stop practicing for few days if one is fulfilling household duty in Chinese energetic practice or esoteric martial art.  Otherwise, you tear down those tendons related to these practices. People do not understand, to whom it is suggested, why it is suggested, when it is suggested, etc. They come with all kinds of label.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that it is not actually important to retain semen itself. Women do not retain their reproductive tissue, why should men? This inconsistency is rarely noted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 18th, 2022 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:



James Sealy said:
The Zerbu explains, that the wisdom of innate awareness is without boundary, (rig pa’i ye shes gang gi mthas ma reg pa). Therefore it is the limitless wisdom of the self-arising Dharmakaya (bon gyi sku rang shar). That means it is the Dharmakaya existent within ourselves and also as identity in someone else.

Malcolm wrote:
That is just a view of an existent self, not different than mu stegs pa ideas. Sad.

James Sealy said:
Sorry to disappoint you, not everything is in tune with your views. My postings are in line with Bön Dzogchen and so it has for me validity.
Your view regarding a self and non-self etc. has sure its roots somewhere, but seems to differ here and there from Bön Dzogchen, very sad.

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t think this is the case. I’ve received ZZNG, and studied Bon tenet curriculums, mdzod Phuk, etc. the  Bonpo view of emptiness, absence of identity, is no different than the Buddhist one. There are slight differences in terminology, but the essence is the same. You’ve just taken up an eternalist interpretation, sooner or later you will understand this point. Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa etc., are not wrong when they assert the view of Dzogchen and Madhyamaka are the same with respect to view of emptiness. If Bonpo view really was different, it would be a wrong view and would not lead buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 18th, 2022 at 10:20 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:


Zhen Li said:
In Nepal today, for instance, there are plenty of non-Buddhist rituals which continue to be adopted by Buddhists, but then need reinterpretation to make sense within a Buddhist framework. Mock-marriage to the Bilba fruit is one example, where Hindus see the fruit as Viṣṇu, Buddhists say it is Bodhicitta—this does not have historical textual precedent, but if composition of religious literature was as active as it was a thousand years ago, one might imagine Sanskrit ritual texts being composed on the matter. Cāryā dance is also something which has sub-continental non Buddhist-Tantric precedents, but has taken on great importance in Tantric Buddhism in Nepal, starting with Buddhist refugees from Bengal. It is known, and indeed there might be some evidence, that this practice, along with dāphā song, can be extremely powerful, and it is this perception of power that makes the practice so attractive for anyone. There is trans-sectarian perception of power, and so we do see Buddhists continuing to go to non-Buddhist teachers to receive teachings for particular purposes or because they are reputed to be powerful. When these are transmitted to one's own students, one of course must frame it within a consistent framework of what one has taught before, which still balancing faithfulness to the original transmission one received from one's non-Buddhist guru.

I think this is not really an issue for a well-practiced Buddhist āchārya, who can easily activate visions of yantras and buddhas, but for the average western practitioner, who may also be well-read, it might be hard to wrap one's mind around these issues in a way that makes sense.

Virgo said:
Tantra started somewhere.  But peoples bodies and minds are similar no matter what their religion is.  Those people apply yogas.  Based on different views, levels of understanding, and merit, they see different things.  That's all.  Buddhists, from our standpoint, have a greater understanding.  And perhaps there is also some textual borrowing.

Virgo

Malcolm wrote:
The first book titled a tantra, as far as we know, is an Ayurvedic text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 18th, 2022 at 6:33 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:



Reindeer Milk said:
I think the earliest saiva tantra, as a surviving text, is from around the mid-5th century CE.

Malcolm wrote:
When considering Vajrayāna, I think this focus on Saiva ritualism is excessively myopic.

For example, the Guhyasamāja, Mahāvairocana-abhisambodhi, Susiddhikara, Sarvatatathāgatatattvasamgraha, Vajraśikara, etc. owe nothing to the Saiva tradition at all, as far as I can discern.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 18th, 2022 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
James Sealy said:
Reason would be the acceptance, that everybody has that certain inherent dwelling Tatagathagarbha / Tsön gang.

Malcolm wrote:
Does this thumb sized ye shes move from one body to the next? When does it form in the body?

James Sealy said:
The Zerbu explains, that the wisdom of innate awareness is without boundary, (rig pa’i ye shes gang gi mthas ma reg pa). Therefore it is the limitless wisdom of the self-arising Dharmakaya (bon gyi sku rang shar). That means it is the Dharmakaya existent within ourselves and also as identity in someone else.

Malcolm wrote:
That is just a view of an existent self, not different than mu stegs pa ideas. Sad.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 18th, 2022 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Natan said:
It seems to me, based on a commentary by a Kashmiri Kalachakra pandit is that the importance of empty forms is that they are nonmaterial. I think Mipham talks about it too.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen critique of śunyatābimba is that these are never developed. They are dharmatā but they are never developed beyond their initial appearance. Dudjom discusses this in his big red book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Can a Bodhisattva retrogress to becoming an Arhat?
Content:
Nalanda said:
or asked a different way, are there Arhats who were Bodhisattvas?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is possible for bodhisattvas to switch gotras, families, but it is considered a grave error.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
James Sealy said:
Reason would be the acceptance, that everybody has that certain inherent dwelling Tatagathagarbha / Tsön gang.

Malcolm wrote:
Does this thumb sized ye shes move from one body to the next? When does it form in the body?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Just as there is no independent self, there is no independent gender.

Malcolm wrote:
Finally, we agree on something.

There is only an imputed self, which functions, just like imputed cars function.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:



James Sealy said:
We never can discuss Dzogchen emptiness with Madyamika adherents, that is very clear.

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness, in Dzogchen, is exactly the same emptiness presented in Madhyamaka. The difference between Dzogchen and Madhyamaka is not emptiness, but rather, the treatment of the two truths, and the mode of realizing emptiness, based on differences in the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 6:34 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


fckw said:
But you keep on debating and thus ignoring Gautama Buddha's own advise? Here's what - not a random American bloke but - Gautama Buddha said about having such debates: https://suttacentral.net/snp4.8/en/mills?reference=none&highlight=false

It's fascinating to just think about what it means to apply this same sutra to the debate training applied in Tibetan monasteries too.

heart said:
Laurence Khantipalo Mills is your guru? I am not debating, you are! Anatman is fine for me.

fckw said:
Stop acting silly, I referenced the Sutta Nipata. It's part of the Therevadin Pali Canon, so it deserves some respect even from Tibetan Buddhists.

Malcolm wrote:
The Sutta Nipatta record many discourses from early in the Buddha's career. His critique of polemic was aimed at those outside his path. The Buddha strongly encouraged his senior students to confront and debate those of other schools. You can find evidence of this in the Majjihma Nikāya, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 6:30 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
Not at all convinced by one American Bhikkhu's idea, anatman is fine for me. Good luck with your soul journey.

fckw said:
But you keep on debating and thus ignoring Gautama Buddha's own advise? Here's what - not a random American bloke but - Gautama Buddha said about having such debates: https://suttacentral.net/snp4.8/en/mills?reference=none&highlight=false

Malcolm wrote:
He was talking about those who were not his students. For his students he said:

And the Blessed One spoke, saying: "In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.[54] Now in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness. Devoid of true ascetics are the systems of other teachers. But if, Subhadda, the bhikkhus live righteously, the world will not be destitute of arahats.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What they say in fact is that vijñāna transforms into jñāna. They don't say that vijñāna is absolute. The problem they have is an inner contradiction in explaining how something compounded becomes uncompounded. Dolbupa tries to escape this issue by declaring at the outset that vijñāna and jñana are different entirely. That leads to a whole other set of problems, none of which are satisfactorily addressed by repurposing Shantipa's scheme of mapping the three natures to the two truths.
For example, if this jñāna is uncompounded, it must exist fully formed in a person from the beginning, which means they ought to have access to the dual omniscience of the result, and so on ... In any case, if these mantras, deities, and mandala are without a cause, then there is no need for a path, much less a result.

stong gzugs said:
Jnana does exist, fully formed, in a person's continuum from the beginning.

Malcolm wrote:
So it is the same as or different than vijñāna? And if it is different, how does this escape the contradiction that in one sentient beings there are two kinds of consciousness? If is the same, then what is the point of trying to prove it is permanent, etc., and going down the atmavādin rabbit hole?

stong gzugs said:
This is supported by the analogies of buddha-nature of the treasure buried in the backyard of a poor person, the statue with rags covering it, etc. All the buddha qualities are fully formed.

Malcolm wrote:
And thus, as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explained repeatedly, gzhan stong and Dzogchen are incompatible.


stong gzugs said:
There's the natural lineage (which is the collection of pristine wisdom, accomplished through non-conceptual meditative equipoise). This removes the defilements covering the primordially abiding dharmakaya. The collection of wisdom only appears to "cause" separative effects (bral ba'i 'bras bu), because all the buddha qualities already existed fully-formed in the dharmakaya and their attainment is due to the removal of defilements, not the production of anything new.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, this is the difference between Dzogchen and gzhan stong. For Dzogchen, Lamdre, etc., the "qualities" exist only as a potential, to say they exist fully formed is contradicts the fact that afflicted sentient beings do not experience the eighteen unshared qualities of a buddha, etc.

stong gzugs said:
Buddhahood is taught to be the enlightened body of primordial awareness, and the incidental impurities are taught to be the groups of consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
You don't need to quote all this stuff. I have Dolbupa;s texts in English and Tibetan.


stong gzugs said:
It is not consistent with the foundational Yogacāra commentaries on the text, that is the commentaries by Vasubandhu and Sthiramati...
I think Mathes soundly supports my original claim that "Taranatha's reading of the Madhyāntavibhāga is logically consistent. I'm not claiming it's the only valid reading, just that it is a valid reading." I recognize that it's a novel interpretation. I'm just claiming that it's logically sound. But I'll leave that for the other readers to decide:

Mathes, K.-D. (2001). Tāranātha’s presentation of trisvabhāva in the gŹan stoṅ sñiṅ po. Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies, 23(2), 195–223.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not consistent with how the Yogacāra founders and their followers understood it. Their understanding should be taken as authoritative. Not this made-up understanding which is never found in all of Asanga's credible works, and so on. That's just an academic game Mathes, Lusthause, and so on, play to keep themselves busy.

The gshan stong mapping of the three natures to the two truths, following Shantipa, is exactly why Tsongkhapa, Rongton, and Gorampa take them to task on this point, is exactly why Rongton asserts they are a variant of false aspectarian yogacāra, and is exactly why Longchenpa avoids making the same mistake that Dolbupa and other gzhan stong pas get sucked into, and is why Longchenpa is emphatically not a gzhan stong pa. He is a mtha' bral pa in the grand tradition of classical Madhyamaka, and avoided the novelties of Tibetans such as the gzhan stong system and the Geluk/Kadampa system, which actually predates Tsongkhapa by some centuries. One can find what would become caricatured as Tsongkhapa's position rebutted in Rongzom.

The tathāgatagarbha doctrine is perfectly acceptable to Madhyamaka, but not if one divides the two truths from each other, as it is done in gzhan stong. In this respect (dividing the two truths), Geluk and gzhan stong are just mirror images of each other, hence Khenpo Appey said that Geluk was just upside down gzhan stong. Also, for this reason, Longchenpa declares the view of Candrakīrti to be the definitive Mahāyāna view, while at same time declaring the ten tathāgatagarbha sūtras to be the definitive Mahāyāna sūtras (though even he got sucked into the dumb hermeneutic).

All the contradictions the dumb hermeneutic creates are pointed out by Sonam Tsemo in his General Presentation of the Tantras. He quotes the remedy for them from the Explication of the Intent Tantra (Sandhivyākaraṇanāmatantra. Dgongs pa lung bstan pa zhes bya ba'i rgyud. Dg,K, rgyud, ca (Toh.444), "The single pleasing vajra word turns into many different [words] through the distinct inclinations of migrating beings."


stong gzugs said:
the type of second-turning emptiness emphasized by the Geluk

Malcolm wrote:
Again, the dumb hermeneutic of the three turnings. Not sure why you think the Prajñāpāramita is merely an emptiness of negation. That is an incorrect reading of Prajñāpāramita.


stong gzugs said:
I think Dölpopa would say that the whole point of the third turning is that it allows you to make fine distinctions during post-meditation that improve your capacity to benefit others. To that extent, I think the view should matter.

Malcolm wrote:
The view in Vajrayāna is derived from the third and fourth empowerments, not post-equipoise intellectual analysis. That's why Gorampa says one's post-equipoise view irrelevant.  It's experiential, not analytical. No amount of post-equipoise analysis can enter one into freedom from proliferation because it is all just a bunch of proliferation. That's why when I read that by Gorampa, I lost all interest in further study of Madhyamaka debates by Tibetans. And, there is no Indian gzhan stong at all.

And again, the dumb hermeneutic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Is there an eternal hell in Buddhism?
Content:
oaktree said:
My Seon nun who has been a nun for 20 or so years said that if one kills his mother or kills his father, or sheds the blood of the Buddha, one goes to hell forever.

Malcolm wrote:
No, just immediately upon dying. But hell isn't a real place. Hell is other people, as someone once quipped.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: Lives After Initial Awakening
Content:
ThreeVows said:
This may be difficult to express perfectly, but hopefully the intent comes through clearly enough.

Whether from a Mahayana or Theravada perspective, does anyone know what is formally said in either scriptures or valid commentaries about lifetimes after initial awakening in terms of what that looks like?

What I mean is, say that one realizes the first bhumi or stream entry, and then that individual dies and takes birth as, say, a chakravartin, or as just an ordinary person.

Malcolm wrote:
It takes two incalculable eons to reach the eighth bhumi. One more to reach Buddhahood, according to common Mahāyāna.

In all the śrāvaka schools, once one has attained stream entry, one will attain nirvana within 7 lifetimes.


ThreeVows said:
Is it said that such a person does not remember their previous lifetime immediately as a first bhumi bodhisattva/stream enterer, and they do not consciously have the cognitive structure in place that says "I am a Buddhist who has realized the nature of mind", but rather they just have a certain tendency towards renunciation of samsara and towards virtue, which may lead to re-recognition of dharmata in that particular bodymind?

Malcolm wrote:
This is why the bodhisattva path is so arduous and long. Until one reaches the pure bhumis one has to reascend the bhumis by meeting the dharma again, etc.

ThreeVows said:
Is it possible that such an individual will not, in the course of their entire lifetime, consciously encounter formal Buddhist teachings at all, or realize the nature of mind? Or would they automatically realize the nature of mind at some point?

Malcolm wrote:
They may not, for many lifetimes, realize the Mahāyāna path of seeing until they meet the Dharma again, etc.

ThreeVows said:
If such an individual were born in a culture where there were no formal, extant Buddhist teachings present, would/could they realize the nature of mind in such a situation?

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not, IMO.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2024
Content:


DNS said:
Old Joe

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3773627-dont-run-joe-campaign-launches-first-tv-ad-in-new-hampshire-urging-biden-not-to-seek-reelection/

https://dontrunjoe.org/new-hampshire-video-ad

TLDR; USA is doomed.

Malcolm wrote:
Idiots. They don't know a good thing when they see it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 17th, 2022 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Zhen Li said:
The argument is not so much that there are Śaiva "versions" of Buddhist tantras, but that there are influences and borrowings. Anyone practicing Buddhist tantra has to steel themselves against the possibility that they are not practicing something purely Buddhist

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the case. The four classes of tanta were taught specifically to attract people of the four varnas to Buddhadharma based on the behavior they enjoyed, thus lowest tantra, kriya, as taught for bramins, etc.

Further, Buddhists are permitted to, and always have engaged in forms of religious practice not specifically prescribed by the Buddha, even in the Buddha's life time:

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis show respect, honor, esteem, and veneration towards their shrines, both those within the city and those outside it, and do not deprive them of the due offerings as given and made to them formerly?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they do venerate their shrines, and that they do not deprive them of their offerings."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

The reworking of myths such as the conflict between the devas and asuras (the story of downfall of Tripura), the Ramayāna, the churning of the milky ocean, are to be expected and were common fodder for all Indians in north and central India, spreading to Indonesia, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 16th, 2022 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine
Content:
Soma999 said:
I think it is quiet easy to check if loss of shukras decrease inner fire. After emission, go perform tumo in the cold and see for yourself.

rai said:
i am just curious. let's say yogi met a girl he couldn't resist and lost the shurkas, how long will it take to rebuild so the fire or bliss is back?

Malcolm wrote:
A day, because we eat food every day. It takes 28 days to refine ojas. It takes 7 days to refine śukra. When we talk about bodhicitta in the body, this is really the substance we are referring, not khu ba or śukra.

Basically, there are three types of bindu in the body according Chogyal Namkhai Norbu: there is the indestructible bindu in the heart center. If we lose this, we die immediately. There is mdangs or ojas, if we lose too much of this, we will die slowly. Then there is semen, if we don't lose this, we turn into pieces of wood, and eventually, become impotent.

The main cause of losing ojas is stress. Vegan diets are also not healthy. The reasons why so many vegans have that pasty, grey skin tone is that they do not eat enough food rich in dietary fats and sugars.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 16th, 2022 at 9:18 AM
Title: Re: Necro posting (deserves a rethink)
Content:
curtstein said:
Referring to how "all the other forums" do things is not a very good argument. Internet discussion forums do not provide very good role models as a general rule.

Malcolm wrote:
You can revive an old conversation by citing it in a new thread with a link. Problem solved.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 16th, 2022 at 8:40 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Täpa said:
non duality.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is not a nondualist system. This is the #1 biggest misunderstanding of Dzogchen. Dzogchen talks about nondual experience without asserting nonduality as a state of being.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 16th, 2022 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Especially when someone gives a lecture because they believe in their mental projections about someone they know nothing about and have never met.

Malcolm wrote:
Mentally project much? You might find a mirror of some use.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 16th, 2022 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
So it’s not just some abstract philosophical debate, Dzogchen meditation can’t function for thought-swatters beyond the preliminary level of Shine.

Malcolm wrote:
This was a big problem in Tibet, people who thought Dzogchen was resting a state free of thoughts. They didn't realize this leads to birth either as unconscious devas or animals.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 16th, 2022 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


haha said:
If that is the case, then mosquito to elephant all will be liberated without entering into the path. One will lead to Buddhahood, whereas another will lead to samsara which is nothing but the dualistic tendency.

I do not know what type of impression is given by above description. If you said so, then you are correct. Probably, I had given an example, too.  I did not say that space is inside the cloud, nor suggested that space is just a quality of cloud. I have not studied that much so I have no idea about what Jigme Lingpa's criticism is about.

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa, vidyā is defined in the commentaries of the 17 tantras as knowledge of one's core potential (cittatilaka). When one has this knowledge, then there is possibility of buddhahood. Without it, buddhahood is not possible.

It is also defined as pratyātmavedanajñāna.

Here are a couple of other useful aspects to consider from the Vima snying thig:

(1) The vidyā that apprehends characteristics: “the vidyā that imputes phenomena as universals and as mere personal names”, is one’s mere non-conceptual self-cognizant consciousness defiled by many cognitions. 

(2) The [vidyā that] appropriates the basis creates all cognitions when present in one’s body, and is present as the mere intrinsic clarity [of those cognitions] is called “unripened vidyā.”

(3) The vidyā present as the basis is the reality of the essence, original purity, that exists possessing the three pristine consciousnesses. The vidyā which is not covered by partiality is present as the essence of omniscient pristine consciousness. Further, that pristine consciousness is present as a subtle pristine consciousness. If that pristine consciousness did not exist, there would be no liberation from emptiness. Further, there would be no liberation from the inert. However, if vidyā exists as pristine consciousness, it would be no different than the substantial nirmanakāya. 

(4) The vidyā of insight is those vivid appearances when the instruction is demonstrated. It is called “the essence of the self-appearing tilaka”. As there are many unmixed appearances, the Teacher stated:

Everything arose from non-arising,
showing the great miraculous display in every way. 

(5) The vidyā of thögal is the absence of increase or decrease in experience having reached the full measure of appearance through practice. Having completed all the signs and qualities, also they are not established by their own nature. When self-manifesting as omniscient pristine consciousness, it [the vidyā of thögal] is called “abandoning phenomena”, “the exhaustion of phenomena”, “beyond phenomena”, “liberated from phenomena”, and “no arising even in mere arising”. 

Are those vidyās different or not? They are not different since there is nothing more than a single nature.

All of these are subsumed under the term rig pa, and all have but a single nature.

Is avidyā different than vidyā? The latter is the cause of the former and becomes the former:

As such, from not recognizing that knowledge (vidyā, rig pa) and ignorance (avidyā, ma rig pa) have the same cause, like the front and back of one’s hand, the ignorance of the same identical cause arises from not arriving at ultimate nonduality. The connate ignorance (arising from the preceding) is a term of duality, meaning as soon as the conceit “this is originally pure” occurs, it is inseparable from that ignorance. Thus, ignorance depends on knowledge and delusion depends on nondelusion. As such, knowledge itself becomes ignorance and nondelusion becomes delusion.
-- Buddhahood in This Life, pg. 77.

Because people do not spend enough time studying the first two of the eleven topics of the Great Perfection, they really do not understand the view of the Great Perfection, as is clearly evident in many of the postings in this thread.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 16th, 2022 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
James Sealy said:
The way to Dharmakaya happens in a certain dualistic way, like explaining it in words etc., that is quite different than to be present in the Dharmakaya of course. That state goes beyond explanations based on dualisms , that would be clear to me.

Although we may speak of Rang-rig as the subject side of the Natural State, it is not something which originates among the 8 consciousnesses, as in the case of the Chittamatra view. To that we also can agree.

Malcolm wrote:
Rang rig is a short hand for "so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye shes," meaning "one's personally intuited gnosis." It is not rang rig (reflexive cognition a.k.a self-awareness) of the Yogacāra school .

James Sealy said:
Well accordingly the subject side, is there a non-dual awareness at the moment, which differs from the awareness experience from another person.

Malcolm wrote:
"Nondual" in this context simply means that the display of consciousness (shes pa) is recognized to be one's own state; it is not an assertion that all phenomena in the universe are one nondual state (which is the assertion of Advaita).

Archie2009 said:
Doesn't the final ང་ in rang require either gi (genetive) or gis (instrumental) instead of gyi (genetive) or gyis (instrumental)? In addition, shouldn't it be gi instead (going by what you said elsewhere)?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course, but I was typing hastily.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
James Sealy said:
The way to Dharmakaya happens in a certain dualistic way, like explaining it in words etc., that is quite different than to be present in the Dharmakaya of course. That state goes beyond explanations based on dualisms , that would be clear to me.

Although we may speak of Rang-rig as the subject side of the Natural State, it is not something which originates among the 8 consciousnesses, as in the case of the Chittamatra view. To that we also can agree.

Malcolm wrote:
Rang rig is a short hand for "so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye shes," meaning "one's personally intuited gnosis." It is not rang rig (reflexive cognition a.k.a self-awareness) of the Yogacāra school .

James Sealy said:
Well accordingly the subject side, is there a non-dual awareness at the moment, which differs from the awareness experience from another person.

Malcolm wrote:
"Nondual" in this context simply means that the display of consciousness (shes pa) is recognized to be one's own state; it is not an assertion that all phenomena in the universe are one nondual state (which is the assertion of Advaita).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:



haha said:
If you hit the wood, then it says “ouch”. Then it is like wood.


Malcolm wrote:
So, rig pa feels pain, meaning it has sensations, correct?

haha said:
You know how to pull someone’s leg. Lol

It is not someone who feels pain. It is simply the clarity aspect of mind. Great sensation, then great clarity; if one has recognition. Otherwise, it is just the pain because of somebody or because of something.

Malcolm wrote:
So, it follow then that rig pa and mind are not utterly different. In fact, based in your description, rig pa is just a quality (dharmatā) of the mind (dharmin). Of course this does not escape Jigme Lingpa's criticism of conflating rig pa as a mental factor with rig as the recognition of self-originated gnosis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
haha said:
Indeed, there is no thought in Rigpa.

Malcolm wrote:
So rig pa is inert? Like wood?

haha said:
If you hit the wood, then it says “ouch”. Then it is like wood.


Malcolm wrote:
So, rig pa feels pain, meaning it has sensations, correct?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 10:58 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
haha said:
Indeed, there is no thought in Rigpa.

Malcolm wrote:
So rig pa is inert? Like wood?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 9:15 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Rigpa, Buddha-nature, tries to recognize itself in a manner that accords with the different needs of individual sentient beings.
I guess we can agree on that.


Malcolm wrote:
You mean it can fail? But wouldn’t that be ma rig pa?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: Five Elements
Content:
Kai lord said:
Chinese medicine does not deal with brain and mind directly....thats the most critical difference.

And five elements in Chinese system are fire, water, earth, metal and wood

While the Tibetans following the Indians, have the five elements as fire, water, earth, wind and space.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetans use both schemes: wood, fire, earth, metal, and water (Chinese); and earth, water, fire, air, and space (Indian).

The equivalencies are that wood = air; metal (meteorites) = space.

Kai lord said:
I am snatching my head over how wood = air though.

Malcolm wrote:
It is obvious, leaves are green.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


heart said:
You are not reading that teaching very well..

Malcolm wrote:
It's a waste of time, Magnus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


James Sealy said:
Concerning that, because relative and incidental entities are completely nonexistent in their true mode of existence, they are empty of own-essence. That is being empty of self-nature.

Because the original absolute, that is empty of those relative phenomena, is never non-existent, it is empty of other.

Malcolm wrote:
This is completely inconsistent with the view of Dzogchen. The view of Dzogchen is that there is no basis or foundation at all. Also the doctrine of the two truths is absent in Dzogchen. Further, the view of Dzogchen is that everything, including buddhahood is completely equivalent to an illusion and therefore, uniform.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Five Elements
Content:
Kai lord said:
Chinese medicine does not deal with brain and mind directly....thats the most critical difference.

And five elements in Chinese system are fire, water, earth, metal and wood

While the Tibetans following the Indians, have the five elements as fire, water, earth, wind and space.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetans use both schemes: wood, fire, earth, metal, and water (Chinese); and earth, water, fire, air, and space (Indian).

The equivalencies are that wood = air; metal (meteorites) = space.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 15th, 2022 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
heart said:
So many thoughts can mean a lot of self-liberation. So the more thoughts the more self-liberation. The thoughts are only a distraction when you actually get distracted by them. But they will self-liberate if you don't get distracted.

Malcolm wrote:
At this point this whole conversation has become this:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:


stong gzugs said:
He was just following Shantipa. As Rongton says, gzhan stong is just a riff on false aspectarian yogacara.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an incredibly silly idea...It takes a willfully ignorant misreading of Dölpopa's Mountain Dharma to think that gzhan stong has anything to do with any form of false aspectarian cittamatra/yogacara. [/quote]

I doubt Rongton wilfully misread Dolbupa. His take is that gzhan stong is an intermediate view between false aspectarian yogacāra and proper madyamaka——as I said, a riff.

As far as Tsongkhapa goes, his main arguments against gzhan stong are found in his legs bshad snying po, and mainly have to do with how gzhan stong pas incorrectly distort both the two truths doctrine and the three natures doctrine.


stong gzugs said:
False aspectarians say vijnana is absolute, gzhanstongpas say jnana is absolute.

Malcolm wrote:
What they say in fact is that vijñāna transforms into jñāna. They don't say that vijñāna is absolute. The problem they have is an inner contradiction in explaining how something compounded becomes uncompounded. Dolbupa tries to escape this issue by declaring at the outset that vijñāna and jñana are different entirely. That leads to a whole other set of problems, none of which are satisfactorily addressed by repurposing Shantipa's scheme of mapping the three natures to the two truths.

stong gzugs said:
To confuse the two means an inability to distinguish between the alaya vijnana (kunzhi namshe) and the alaya jnana (kunzhi yeshe). You're a Dzogchen practitioner, would you take seriously the critiques of somebody who can't tell the difference between sems and yeshe?

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen ye she is the basis of sems; sems is the potential (rtsal) of ye shes. They are not absolutely different in kind and substance, as proposed by Dolbupa. The https://read.84000.co/translation/toh106.html#UT22084-049-001-chapter-3 chapter in the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra is useful for reviewing how dharmin and dharmatā are neither the same nor different.

For example, if this jñāna is uncompounded, it must exist fully formed in a person from the beginning, which means they ought to have access to the dual omniscience of the result, and so on. It means some permanent entity moves from one body to another, etc.

stong gzugs said:
]he refutes cittamatra on the basis of the Kālacakra, which argues that mantras, deities, and mandalas are self-arisen pristine wisdom beyond consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
How one understands this very much depends on how one understands the grammar of the Sanskrit term "svayambhu." Some commentaries gloss is as arising without a cause; most commentaries gloss it as "arising from oneself."

In any case, if these mantras, deities, and mandala are without a cause, then there is no need for a path, much less a result. If they are beyond consciousness, they cannot be cognized by anyone since there is no faculty by which they could be perceived, unless what is being proposed is a seventh faculty outside the eighteen dhātus, never taught by the Buddha, called jñānendriya. And if this is so, just how does this faculty of jñāna arise, being uncompounded?

This is why Sakya Chogden, who bumps up against this, asserts that the jñāna which perceives the ultimate is actually relative, compounded, and so on, with an ultimate object. Yes, I am aware of Taranatha's dogmatic objections to this. The point is, that this claim of Dolbupa is exactly what causes Rendawa to assign to Dolbupa the charge that he is outside the pale of Buddhadharma. Rongton and Gorampa are nicer, with the latter finding only that bzhan stong is mildly eternalist, while Tsongkhapa is mildly annihilationist.


stong gzugs said:
I'm not at all sure why you think the three turning model is the heart of the disagreement between the Geluk and Jonang as it pertains to the Kālacakra view of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
The heart of the disagreement between Geluk and Jonang is just what I said it is. The tantric issue is a side issue for Geluks. Perhaps it is not a side issue for Jonangpas.

stong gzugs said:
Taranatha's reading of the Madhyāntavibhāga is logically consistent. I'm not claiming it's the only valid reading, just that it is a valid reading.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not consistent with the foundational Yogacāra commentaries on the text, that is the commentaries by Vasubandhu and Sthiramati. Look, Mipham tries to pull a fast one by claiming that if one merely substitutes rnam par snang ba for rnam par rig pa (vijñāpti), this renders the text compatible with madhyamaka. However, this works only as a Tibetan word play, as there is no comparable Sanksrit term for rnam par snang ba. And as far as Vasubandhu goes, Ārya Vimuktisena scolds him precisely for having a consciousness-only view. So, Tsongkhapa is correct in rejecting the attribution of the Bṛhaṭṭīkā to Vasubhandu.

There are other reasons why Dolbupa's arguments might have been found wanting in this respect by Tsongkhpa as well. For example, I don't know how Dolbupa reconciles this statement from the Bṛhaṭṭīkā with his view that the perfected nature is empty of the imagined nature:

།ཆོས་ཀྱི་དབྱིངས་ཞེས་བྱ་བ་ནི། ཡོངས་སུ་གྲུབ་པའི་ཆོས་དེ་དོན་དམ་པར་ཀུན་བརྟགས་པ་དང༌། ཡོངས་སུ་གྲུབ་པ་གཉིས་ཀ་སྟོང་པའི་ངོ་བོ་ཉིད་དུ་རོ་གཅིག་སྟེ། ཐ་དད་དུ་དབྱེར་མེད་པས་གཅིག་གིས་གཅིག་མི་མཐོང་ངོ་ཞེས་བསྟན་པའོ།

The "dharmadhātu" is the perfected dharma. In the ultimate, both the imputed and the perfected are one taste in the intrinsic nature of emptiness. Since they cannot be differentiated, it is explained "one does not see the other."
f. 88a, Dg.T, sher phyin, ni (Toh. 3907).

The text goes on to explain how the dharmadhātu is the nature of the rūpadhātu (domain of matter), etc., and so on. When we read this text carefully, it does not actually appear to support the idea that the ultimate is empty of the relative. In fact, it consistently affirms that the ultimate and relative cannot be differentiated. It even goes so far as to say that holding onto pairs such as permanent/impermanent, compounded/uncompounded, empty/not empty and so on are the imputed nature. So what does this mean for Dolbupa's splitting the two truths?

The fact is that Chandrakīrti also makes use of the three natures, as does the Bodhicittavivarana Nāgārjuna (II? III?)
This is a late text. Admittedly, by the 12th century alternate interpretations of the svabhava theory were emerging, but to claim this interpretation is consistent with the Yogacara founders is anachronistic at best.
I mean, in light of modern scholarship, lots of texts our lineage founders assumed were authentic or from a certain date/time/place may no longer be seen as such, so I don't know how to reconcile that.
One cannot, therefore one must stop using such texts as proof texts. If the Dharmadhātustava is not by Nāgārjuna I, one cannot use it as a proof text that Nāgārjuna I upheld some version of dhātuvāda. All one can say is that such and such a text was held by so and so to be valid. But continuing to argue that historical figures held positions they absolutely did not is just poor scholarship. Pre-modern Tibetans can be excused for not having a critical view of history. We cannot.
(For instance, pretty much the entire Pali cannon came centuries after the historical Buddha; also, are we really required to believe in texts hidden under rocks or with nagas, or do we accept academic arguments that termas were ways for Nyigmas to justify the legitimacy of new texts being introduced by the "old ones"?). But we can always go back to Tsen Khawoche or Yumo Mikyo Dorje or even the earliest commentaries on the Kālackara to find that the weight of the Jordruk lineage is with Dölpopa, not Tsonghkhapa. So the Jonang continue to hold the definitive meaning of the Kālackara.
There are many versions of sadāṅgayoga, for example, the Sakyapas had a version. Rongzom presents a version. Further, you are just expressing sectarian preference. Jonang feels it has the definitive take on the Kalacakra sadāṅgayoga because it specialized in these yogas——but yoga and philosophy are not the same thing. According to Gorampa, when one is practicing Vajrayāna it does not matter much what kind of view one holds in post-equipoise. Everyone agrees—from Dolbupa to Gorampa to Tsongkahpa—that the view in equipoise must be free from proliferation, spros pa dang bral ba, nisprapañca.

I don't worry too much about what academics say. But when we have clear dates or epochs for the revelation of this or that text, it is impossible to say it has any influence on an earlier time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 9:18 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Zhen Li said:
It's been years since I read him, but one issue is about the idea of rigid religious identities. It's one thing to say something appears in another text, but another to say that when Buddhists practice utkrānti they are practicing a Śaiva practice. These kinds of dichotomies and divisions aren't relevant to practitioners' lived experiences and emic understandings.

stong gzugs said:
Yeah, I agree. It's pretty clear that the rigid sectarian identities were only imposed later onto something that was much more fluid. I don't believe Sanderson's emphasis was on who "owns" certain practices, but on establishing through more sophisticated textual critical analysis that the direction of influence in texts (rather than practices per se) was more from Shaiva to Buddhist tantras than the opposite. But I also read The Saiva Age years ago, so my recollection is hazy. (Plus, if we dropped all Vajrayana practices with Shaiva precedent, we'd be in a tough spot.)

Malcolm wrote:
The Samkhya of Shambhala is pretty transparent. However, the notion of the three gunas is also present in the Samputa Tantra., etc.

stong gzugs said:
It's not just the sāmkhya, but Rendawa also mentioned the emergence of the four varnas from Kālacakra's mouth (Vedic), classification of plants as animals (Jaina), the cosmology from the Mahābharata (rather than Abhidharma), use of Vishnu's daśāvatāra from the Hindu Puranas (used to explain gestation), and more. I mean, the whole mythical narrative of Shambhala and Kalkī are taken from the Puranas. Point being, there's plenty in the Kālacakra that would (and did) make people worry about syncretism and the key reason people accepted it is because the syncretism might help attract people across various Indian traditions into the Kālacakra mandala, which is the unity you need when you're being invaded by outsiders.

Malcolm wrote:
Um no. Tsongkhapas aim was to show that the way the bzhan stong pas use the three svābhavas was completely inconsistent with how they are used in the Yogācara texts, and he is correct in doing so.

stong gzugs said:
That's a common, but mistaken, belief. The gzhan stong interpretation is distinctive, but does not lack precedent. Dölpopa shows that the three natures doctrine is not purely Yogācara but also exists in the Prajñāpāramitā, which is why it appears in Vasubandhu's Brhattika as a way to understand the relation between form and emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a late text. Admittedly, by the 12th century alternate interpretations of the svabhava theory were emerging, but to claim this interpretation is consistent with the Yogacara founders is anachronistic at best.



stong gzugs said:
The Brhattika is as clear as day that the pariniṣpanna is empty of parikalpita and paratantra: "

Malcolm wrote:
Again, this is anachronistic.




stong gzugs said:
Tsongkhapa's retort was to attribute this work to Damstrasena, but few bought this argument (including Buton, who was not exactly a gzhan stong pa). Along with many other texts that Dölpopa cites in his Autocommentary to the Fourth Council, this linking of the three natures with the two truths is why he describes Vasubandhu and Asanga as Mahamadhyamaka rather than Cittamatra. Kongtrul agrees in this assessment, that the Brhattika and other texts, show Vasubandhu speaking in terms of Madhyamaka. Nobody is forcing anyone to agree with his terminologies or classifications, but Dölpopa always brought receipts for his claims. There's a reason he was known as the omniscient one.

Malcolm wrote:
Anachronism. This is like claiming Nagarjuna I wrote praise to the Dharmadhatu or the Bodhicittavivarana.

stong gzugs said:
Also, moving to Yogācara texts, although there are many plausible readings of the Madhyāntavibhāga, any fair minded reader of Taranatha's gzhan stong snying po must admit that the gzhan stong view of the three natures he offers is one of those plausible readings.

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t agree. Neither does Brunnholzl.



stong gzugs said:
I don't want to send this interesting thread off in a random direction, so I'll just end by coming full circle to note that Dölpopa's purpose in linking the two truths and three natures wasn't merely to explain the sutras, it was to depict the experiential realization of emptiness produced by the Kālacakra six-branch yoga, which is what Tsongkhapa didn't quite seem to grok.

Malcolm wrote:
He was just following Shantipa. As Rongton says, gzhan stong is just a riff on false aspectarian yogacara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 6:33 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Out of curiosity, what are the complications? I haven't seen any serious counter-arguments to Sanderson's work showing the origins of Utkrānti in Shaivism (as well as much of the Cakrasaṃvara), except of course for Ruegg's rather unconvincing "common substratum" argument and the recognition that there are tons of untranslated texts from all traditions, so something could come out that changes our timelines. Is there more recent stuff out there that I may not be familiar with?

Zhen Li said:
It's been years since I read him, but one issue is about the idea of rigid religious identities. It's one thing to say something appears in another text, but another to say that when Buddhists practice utkrānti they are practicing a Śaiva practice. These kinds of dichotomies and divisions aren't relevant to practitioners' lived experiences and emic understandings.

Malcolm wrote:
In any case, Indians and Tibetans alike were quite aware of common practices between Hindu tantras and Buddhist tantras, and such eminent persons as Sakya Pandita put the main difference down to view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 6:30 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Out of curiosity, what are the complications? I haven't seen any serious counter-arguments to Sanderson's work showing the origins of Utkrānti in Shaivism (as well as much of the Cakrasaṃvara), except of course for Ruegg's rather unconvincing "common substratum" argument and the recognition that there are tons of untranslated texts from all traditions, so something could come out that changes our timelines. Is there more recent stuff out there that I may not be familiar with?

Zhen Li said:
It's been years since I read him, but one issue is about the idea of rigid religious identities. It's one thing to say something appears in another text, but another to say that when Buddhists practice utkrānti they are practicing a Śaiva practice. These kinds of dichotomies and divisions aren't relevant to practitioners' lived experiences and emic understandings.

Malcolm wrote:
In any case, Indians and Tibetans alike were quite aware of common practices between Hindu tantras and Buddhist tantras, and such eminent persons as Sakya Pandita put the main difference down to view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


heart said:
You have arrived at "the exhaustion of all concepts and phenomena" then how can thoughts be a problem for you?

Malcolm wrote:
Jalupa Jules, he's gone rainbow. Good for him. We'll miss him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:


stong gzugs said:
Funny enough, the use of so much non-Buddhist content was one of the reasons Rendawa critiqued the Kālacakra

Malcolm wrote:
The Samkhya of Shambhala is pretty transparent. However, the notion of the three gunas is also present in the Samputa Tantra., etc.


stong gzugs said:
and part of what set Tsongkhapa out on his mission to discredit the Jonang view and attempt to show that the Kālacakra view of emptiness fits squarely within the second turning. So, the strategy of re-packaging may work in retrospect, but a small minority of lamas were definitely uncomfortable with it at first.

Malcolm wrote:
Um no. Tsongkhapas aim was to show that the way the bzhan stong pas use the three svābhavas was completely inconsistent with how they are used in the Yogācara texts, and he is correct in doing so.

The three turnings is a very weak hermeneutic model, one entirely ignored in India. The extent to which Tibetans took it up is unfortunate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 14th, 2022 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Yes they are from Tibetans.

But are there records (outside Tibetan sources) of this practice originating from India?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, many, such as this text by Śrídhara, the Intimate Instruction of Transferring One's Mind Upwards and its Blessing ( rang gi sems gong du 'pho ba'i man ngag byin brlab dang bcas pa, no Sanskrit title), translated in the 12th century by Abhijñā and 'Gos Khug-pa Lhas-btsas.

The practice has its origins in the Caturpitha Tantra, where it is explicitly described, as well as its commentaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
MaitreyaBuddha said:
meaning that one simply observes every last detail of one's world, and what one is doing, with 'loving Awareness' termed in Tibetan tradition - 'trek chod'.


Malcolm wrote:
Just no. This is completely wrong, all of it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
James Sealy said:
Well i can have no objection to this state of non-duality. If this would be absolute, i do not know at the moment if Advaita maintains that.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an eternalist point of view. If you have this point of view, you are very far away from the meaning of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
conebeckham said:
From Mila’s song to the Lady Paldarboom-



Ah, Lady Paldarboom,
Listen, fortunate and devoted student,

If you are happy practicing with the sky,
Clouds are the sky’s magical creations.
Be the sky itself.

If you are happy practicing with the sun and moon,
Planets and stars are their magical creations.
Be the sun and moon.

If you are happy practicing with the mountain,
Grass and trees are the mountain’s magical creations.
Be the mountain itself.

If you are happy practicing with the ocean,
Waves are the ocean’s magical creations.
Be the ocean itself.

If you are happy practicing with mind,
Thoughts are the mind’s magical creations.
Be mind itself.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes but, the only two books I read say...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


James Sealy said:
But before my acquaintance with this person, i have heard many times that Dzogchen and Advaita would share some similarities, but then also diferences.

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, we reject the idea of absolute nondualism. The refutation of absolute nondualism may be found in chapter 69 of the Rig pa rang shar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 13th, 2022 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
James Sealy said:
Advaita Vedanta

Malcolm wrote:
Advaita is explicitly rejected in the Rig pa Rang shar tantra, as it's founder, Shankara, is listed under the 360 teachers of samsaric vehicles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Where on the body is the "Tewar"?
Content:
Konchog1 said:
The Tewar or navel. Is it exactly the belly button or a bit below like the Chinese Dantian? Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s the navel region.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 8:34 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
heart said:
can't stop thoughts from arising but you can allow them to self-liberate.

/magnus


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 7:02 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
stoneinfocus said:
Yes, they are present in the various Six Yogas schema (Naropa, Niguma, Sukhasiddhi).

Malcolm wrote:
And Sakya, Kadampa teachings, Nyingma etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: Sanskrit for gDon
Content:
pemachophel said:
Thank you, Loppon, for your response. So do you use the translation "provocations" as in nad gdon ནད་གདོན་, disease and ...? I've never been really comfortable with "provocations." I've tried "provoking spirits," but I'm not totally satisfied with that either.


Malcolm wrote:
One Tibetan Medical dictionary I use defines gdon by itself as "a name for the power of nonhumans to inflict harm, who arise from the reification of benefit and harm through deluded concepts of not recognizing one's own state."

It defines gdon nad as a name for diseases of mind and body inflicted by nonhumans such as gods, nagas, tsan, etc.

The root of all gdon are false imputations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 12th, 2022 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Sanskrit for gDon
Content:
pemachophel said:
Is there a Sanskrit equivalent for the Tibetan gDon གདོན ?

Malcolm wrote:
Not as a kind of non-human being that causes problems.

Otherwise is corresponds to terms that mean doubt and being dominated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 10th, 2022 at 10:48 AM
Title: Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine
Content:
haha said:
Several vajrayana texts, which were compose in India, always mention of not throwing away the sukra (semen). (

Malcolm wrote:
The point is pleasure, not semen. We all know what happens when you cum.

haha said:
If somebody has received Kalacakra, then it is regarded as samaya.



Malcolm wrote:
Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen disputes this interpretation.

haha said:
At least, you agree for specific practitioners and function of sukra with inner heat in some degree.

Malcolm wrote:
Once again, it has nothing to do with semen per se, which is a waste product. In this case it has to do with controlling the apana vayu, not semen itslelf.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 10th, 2022 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Troma Nagmo empowerment online?
Content:
Lingpupa said:
But perhaps you could explain a bit about how it works.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on the empowerment, meaning empowerments that don't use substances are not an issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 10th, 2022 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:



muni said:
So the empty nature of mind is introduced, then all, thoughts... = Nondual. = No grasping.

Dzogchen Masters are guiding now.

Please listen to the Masters.

Malcolm wrote:
Books don't teach.

muni said:
Right. Therefore there are living masters.

Malcolm wrote:
Not many, and those who are, well, not easy to meet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 10th, 2022 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
muni said:
"The Nature of Mind, the face of Rigpa, is introduced upon the very dissolution of conceptual mind." Patrul Rinpoche.
So the empty nature of mind is introduced, then all, thoughts... = Nondual. = No grasping.

Dzogchen Masters are guiding now.

Please listen to the Masters.

Malcolm wrote:
Books don't teach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 10th, 2022 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Matt J said:
The notion that one must develop and maintain a thought free state is an error in this context.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup. It's the classic Hashang strawman view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: DJK Rinpoche asks Greta to visit China on climate
Content:
jamesrigzin said:
To be fair - he does admit when he is wrong or “unskillful”. A quote from his Facebook page:

Malcolm wrote:
Only because he got a shit ton of very angry pushback over his consent form.

Mostly, everyone knows his shtick, and are fans, indifferent, or in the case of some, really don't like him at all.

The best thing he does is 84000.

His political positions seem to reflect the opinions of the Indian media pundit class more than anything else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: DJK Rinpoche asks Greta to visit China on climate
Content:
jamesrigzin said:
And so his solution appears to be an attempt to appeal to a Fascist Chinese government? How does that make any sense.

Malcolm wrote:
He has this strange fantasy about the moral and cultural superiority of "Asians." It is all over his facebook feed. He is an Asian Chauvinist, and many self-hating westerners go along with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: DJK Rinpoche asks Greta to visit China on climate
Content:
jamesrigzin said:
Is he:
1) being serious?
2) being sarcastic/facetious?
3) pointing out some general bias?

Malcolm wrote:
4) Skeptical about the western liberal order.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: The tsön gang
Content:
James Sealy said:
So, the wisdom tsön gang is situated within one's physical human heart.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an error of interpretation. The sgron ma gdrug gi gdams pa clearly explains the difference between the tsi ta and the heart, lungs, and so on in section nya, the lamp of the soft white channel, where it explains the anatomy and formation of the channels and cakras. It's a brief section, and it is really quite clear in disambiguating the tsi ta from the heart, etc.


James Sealy said:
Well in all the Bön texts i have in my library, is mentioned that the Tsitta is similar to the flesh heart, and then it would be for Bönpos a fact.
====================
6 Lamps of the Bön tradition
The teachings associated with each Lamp form a key point (gnad) in themselves, dealing with specific themes. Here, the teachings associated with the Lamp of the Flesh-Heart (tsitta sha’i sgron ma) actually make up what is known as the “key point of the inner arising of natural Awareness.” The Lamp of the Flesh-Heart is thus to be understood as a Base (gzhi) from which Awareness naturally arises.

Malcolm wrote:
We already resolved this above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 7:39 AM
Title: Re: Dakini detection system?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Oh I've got a worldly-Dakini detection system alright

In all seriousness, I think that Malcolm once posted here that there's no such thing as a 'worldly Dakini', not in the sense that most would think anyway.

But for argument's sake, perhaps a female who has received Empowerment yet hasn't yet had some level of realization could be considered a 'worldly Dakini', and any female who hasn't at least received Empowerment, could not be considered a Dakini at all, from a relative perspective...?

Malcolm wrote:
What I said was that the Rigpa Rangshar eliminates the possibility of so called wisdom dakinis in this world. So here, there are only mundane dakinis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: The tsön gang
Content:


James Sealy said:
At the middle of the heart is the tsön gang residing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the place in the body where all the channels meet.


James Sealy said:
According the heart, related to the tsön gang , we know in Bön the following:

Malcolm wrote:
It's the same in the Buddhist presentations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: The tsön gang
Content:


James Sealy said:
At the middle of the heart is the tsön gang residing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the place in the body where all the channels meet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: The tsön gang
Content:
James Sealy said:
the middle of the os sternum.

Malcolm wrote:
It's actually a bit lower, just above the xyphoid process of the sternum, about twelve finger widths from the throat cakra, just as the throat cakra measures about the same distance from the crown cakra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: The tsön gang
Content:
James Sealy said:
So, the wisdom tsön gang is situated within one's physical human heart.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an error of interpretation. The sgron ma gdrug gi gdams pa clearly explains the difference between the tsi ta and the heart, lungs, and so on in section nya, the lamp of the soft white channel, where it explains the anatomy and formation of the channels and cakras. It's a brief section, and it is really quite clear in disambiguating the tsi ta from the heart, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 9th, 2022 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Keith Dowman's translations (continued)
Content:
Zoey85 said:
for a dzogchenpa the practice of recognizing rigpa occurs in all situations, whether while doing formal dharma practice or at a football match or a bar, etc., which is true.

tingdzin said:
It's so easy to fall into the attitudethat "everything I do is Dzogchen". Most people who think this way are deluding themselves.

Tata1 said:
Its not an attitude. Its an instruction.

Malcolm wrote:
If one is still under the power of the three afflictions, and when one is under their power, not everything one does is Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
Anybody else dealing with this kind of thing?

Malcolm wrote:
War is an open wound in humanity, right now it is gushing blood.

On a more positive note, I think the Russian Federation will suffer an administrative breakup as a result of their defeat by Ukraine.  The Russian Empire is over.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 2:20 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


Jules 09 said:
It's all fabrication.

Malcolm wrote:
Since, according to you, it is all fabrication, there is no reason at all that concepts cannot be present when resting in rig pa, since even "rig pa" is a fabrication, and not something established as real. So once again, you hoist yourself on your own pitard.

"For one whom emptiness is possible, everything is possible."
-- Nāgārjuna


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 2:15 PM
Title: Re: DJK Rinpoche asks Greta to visit China on climate
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
What a visitor - you or anyone else - sees is inevitably limited and unbalanced.

Malcolm wrote:
With all due respect, in this case you really don't understand how things are, nor do you understand where I was, what I saw, and how long I was there, nor do you seem to understand the depth of corruption in Chinese society, which render local metrics unreliable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 9:35 AM
Title: Re: In need of some advice please. Sensitive topic.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And while you are it, totally gaslight yourself.

jmlee369 said:
His Holiness the Dalai Lama has unwavering faith and respect in Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche. He also maintains faith and respect to Reting Rinpoche and Tadak Rinpoche, despite the political intrigues between the two including assassination attempts. If it works for His Holiness, it's good enough for me.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said…


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 9:24 AM
Title: Re: DJK Rinpoche asks Greta to visit China on climate
Content:



Kim O'Hara said:
That's unfair and completely untrue. China has changed far more in your lifetime (and mine) than the USA (or Australia) and is still changing much faster than we are.
They are changing lots of things, all at once. Some of their changes are bad for the environment and some are good, but they are doing the best they can to stay afloat while averting, or at least mitigating, future catastrophes.
This longish article gives a pretty good overview of the challenges they face - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-23/china-climate-change-security-water-renewables-carbon-neutrality/12772034.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Have you actually been there?

M

Kim O'Hara said:
No. What difference might that make?


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Then you don’t really know how it is on the ground in China. I’ve been there. I’ve seen how things are with my own eyes. Don’t believe the hype. The Chinese are ecologically engineering themselves into a nightmare.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 8:53 AM
Title: Re: DJK Rinpoche asks Greta to visit China on climate
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
I'm not quite sure what your point is, Malcolm.
That the Chinese are still buying lots of cars? (True, but they are still way behind the West on cars per capita.) (And what kind kind of cars?)
That China is electrifying its vehicle fleet faster than most of the rest of the world? (True.)
Or something else?


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that despite their rhetoric, they are not really changing anything.


Kim O'Hara said:
That's unfair and completely untrue. China has changed far more in your lifetime (and mine) than the USA (or Australia) and is still changing much faster than we are.
They are changing lots of things, all at once. Some of their changes are bad for the environment and some are good, but they are doing the best they can to stay afloat while averting, or at least mitigating, future catastrophes.
This longish article gives a pretty good overview of the challenges they face - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-23/china-climate-change-security-water-renewables-carbon-neutrality/12772034.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Have you actually been there?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 8:43 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


Jules 09 said:
If explaining it to yourself in that way works for you in practice, then that is fine.


Malcolm wrote:
I explain things according to the Dharma, not my own fabrications.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:


Natan said:
Seems Rongzompa is doing more than refuting. He's also establishing appearances are Dharmadhatu, the unestablishable. Sort of a koan there.

Malcolm wrote:
Rongzom belongs to the rab tu mi gnas pa, or anti-foundationalist, division of Madhyamaka, like every good Dzogchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: DJK Rinpoche asks Greta to visit China on climate
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
I'm pretty sure the Chinese leadership is very well aware of the impending environmental disaster and has been working as quickly as possible towards a more sustainable economy. (Beijing's air quality was a big hint. So is the desertification of the West of the country.) Their difficulty is that the sheer size of the country means that "as quickly as possible" is not very quickly, in spite of the advantages (in this context!!) of centralised power.

Malcolm wrote:
A better indicator is car sales:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/276899/automobile-sales-in-china-by-month/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/233743/vehicle-sales-in-china/

https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-country.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country

Kim O'Hara said:
I'm not quite sure what your point is, Malcolm.
That the Chinese are still buying lots of cars? (True, but they are still way behind the West on cars per capita.) (And what kind kind of cars?)
That China is electrifying its vehicle fleet faster than most of the rest of the world? (True.)
Or something else?


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that despite their rhetoric, they are not really changing anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: The tsön gang
Content:
lelopa said:
"tshon gang" is sometimes used by Bon lamas to refer to the primordial wisdoms or lights within one's physical heart.

Malcolm wrote:
It means what it means. It is a term from Tibetan medicine that is ultimately derived from Chinese. The same term is used in Buddhist Dzogchen teachings in the identical manner. For example, in the Ever-Present Tilaka ( Thig le kun gsal ):

The maṇḍala of light, which is the size of a thumb...

The citta, heart (snying), is not the heart muscle, per se (don snying), but rather is a term used to describe the central point where all the channels meet in the body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:





Jules 09 said:
Yes, that sounds about right.

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind: habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu) - all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled; without grasping or rejecting.

Malcolm wrote:
Really? You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa? But that means you are engaging in conceptual proliferation. So you are contradicting yourself (again).

Jules 09 said:
You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa?
No, you have misinterpreted and misrepresented what I wrote.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I didn't. Write more clearly or get an editor. For example, had you written this, it would have been more clear.

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind—all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled, such as habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu), and so on—without grasping or rejecting.

The thing is that traces don't get labeled, nor does karma, etc. They do not appear to mind as objects of cognition, since they belong to the ālayavijñana, which itself is not a cognizing consciousness. What gets labelled is second order impressions, the objects of the manovijñanadhātu. The five sense consciousness are nonconceptual by nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: DJK Rinpoche asks Greta to visit China on climate
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
I'm pretty sure the Chinese leadership is very well aware of the impending environmental disaster and has been working as quickly as possible towards a more sustainable economy. (Beijing's air quality was a big hint. So is the desertification of the West of the country.) Their difficulty is that the sheer size of the country means that "as quickly as possible" is not very quickly, in spite of the advantages (in this context!!) of centralised power.

Malcolm wrote:
A better indicator is car sales:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/276899/automobile-sales-in-china-by-month/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/233743/vehicle-sales-in-china/

https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-country.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
muni said:
How matter I try to see, there is no way to form concepts without grasping and so believing thoughts as being me, mine...

Tao said:
It can. But after recognition of own nature or rigpa (Mahamudra or Dzogchen).

But "you" dont form them, they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".
they just form and are seen as not constructed by a "me".

Jules 09 said:
Yes, that sounds about right.

The 'practice' is to just let the display unwind: habitual tendencies, karma (karma vayu) - all that stuff (phenomena) that gets labelled; without grasping or rejecting.

Malcolm wrote:
Really? You are "labelling" in a state of rigpa? But that means you are engaging in conceptual proliferation. So you are contradicting yourself (again).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 8th, 2022 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: The tsön gang
Content:


James Sealy said:
The luminous wisdom tshon gang

Malcolm wrote:
This just means the luminous wisdom that is the size of a thumb joint. Tshon gang is a measurement, not a thing. Tshon gang is the length of the thumb from the first joint to the tip of the finger nail.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 7th, 2022 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:


Natan said:
I believe Rongzom meant his short texts as manuals as much as exposition...

Malcolm wrote:
Primordial purity means nothing is established at all. Still, our minds keep on establishing and refuting all day long.

Rongzom's text is a polemic aimed at Sarma interpretations of the path of transformation. He begins his text by raising a Kadampa opponent's qualm.

But as you noted above, it is off topic here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 7th, 2022 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:



Jules 09 said:
Yes, not a problem in the dharmatā of mind itself, chos nyid ( rig pa), because concepts don't go there.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there. That’s the point.. BTW, sems nyid is just a contraction of sems kyi chos nyid.

Jules 09 said:
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there.
Concepts arise due to ma rig pa.

Malcolm wrote:
The Ever Present Tilaka ( Thig le kun gsal ) states:

Mind and pristine consciousness,
are neither the same nor different.
They are phenomena that are difficult to differentiate. 
The mind is the potential of pristine consciousness.
The basis of the mind is pristine consciousness. 
Therefore, since mind and pristine consciousness
are both the same and different, 
there is so-called liberation and nonliberation.


Longchenpa comments:

Since the radiance of vidyā in the heart center is moved by the horse of the karma vāyu, its potential arises as concepts, arising as the path of deluded samsāra because of ignorance.

Checkmate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 7th, 2022 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Liberation in Your Hand: The better translation
Content:
Tsewang88 said:
Hi
There are two existing translations of this text. One by Wisdom Publications and one by Mahayana Sutra and Tantra Press. In your opinion, which is the better translation and why? Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
The Wisdom translation. It’s edited more carefully and is peer reviewed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 7th, 2022 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:


Natan said:
One wonders what illustration you imagined you made.

Malcolm wrote:
Your statement could be read that it was not possible to remove ignorance:

untenable:

(especially of a position or view) not able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection.

Natan said:
Oh well. I guess we're pulling short hairs... I think it is not possible to remove the non-existent. This is the point of the reflection of the black snake in the water. Stomping on it can't kill anything. It just make a splashy mess. Primordial purity means impurity is impossible. Like a pure clear diamond that looks dim in dim light. You are removing dimness from the diamond. Dimness is just not enough light.

So what's the light?

Malcolm wrote:
Primordial purity is also not established


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 7th, 2022 at 4:14 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:



Jules 09 said:
Yes, not a problem in the dharmatā of mind itself, chos nyid ( rig pa), because concepts don't go there.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there. That’s the point.. BTW, sems nyid is just a contraction of sems kyi chos nyid.

Jules 09 said:
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there.
Concepts arise due to ma rig pa.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s the same consciousness, whether it’s under the influence of rig pa or ma rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 7th, 2022 at 6:51 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:




Malcolm wrote:
Correct, which is why concepts are not a problem once one has identified the dharmatā of the mind.

Jules 09 said:
Yes, not a problem in the dharmatā of mind itself, chos nyid ( rig pa), because concepts don't go there.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure they do, since they arise from there, they return there. That’s the point.. BTW, sems nyid is just a contraction of sems kyi chos nyid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 7th, 2022 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Informed by RIgpa, you find that you are not in Kansas anymore and everything is the same but different. There is nothing to say.
When recognized, everything would change. There is no way one can do normal samatha after recognition. Even one is trying to do normal samatha, one’s recognition would not go away while mind having fixation on single object or many objects or no object.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, which is why concepts are not a problem once one has identified the dharmatā of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 7th, 2022 at 1:30 AM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Natan said:
...ignorance is untenable as something to purify.

Malcolm wrote:
...there is nothing to purify because ignorance is not something substantial or real that needs to be removed.

Natan said:
One wonders what illustration you imagined you made.

Malcolm wrote:
Your statement could be read that it was not possible to remove ignorance:

untenable:

(especially of a position or view) not able to be maintained or defended against attack or objection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine
Content:
Soma999 said:
I think it is quiet easy to check if loss of shukras decrease inner fire. After emission, go perform tumo in the cold and see for yourself.

Malcolm wrote:
Never had any problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine
Content:
haha said:
By the way, other dhatus also produce ojas.

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on how you understand the seven fold process of digestion.


haha said:
If somebody says that the bija can be expelled without harm, then one can argue that it will lead anomalies in the vata system.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in the winter, when one is using a nutritionally rich diet. And in the West, our diets are nutrionally rich all year long. BTW, the ratio that I explained earlier comes from Vagbhata, Aṣṭaṅghridayasamhita. It's also found in the explanatory tantra.

haha said:
I already said that the depletion of sukra dhatu or bija will decrease the inner fire.

Malcolm wrote:
Depletion means overuse. According to the Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine, there is an excess of mdangs/ojas in the winter, so there is no danger of depletion. The reason we have this idea of seasons is because the premodern system of food production did not allow people to eat steak, all year long, food stores ran out by early spring, people start to eat bitter greens, and so on. For this reason, ojas could be depleted by excess sexual activity in early spring and summer. In any case, both in the ancient and modern context, the main source of ojas depletion is stress/vata vitiation all by itself, regardless of secondary cause.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 7:02 PM
Title: Re: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine
Content:
haha said:
It is major error to say sukra is waste product in term of Ayurveda. It is a main dhatu of the body (i.e. one of the seven), whereas ojas is upadhatu. One cannot increase bliss and heat without this (sukra) because of dependently arising. Even in term of Tibetan Buddhism, they practice “inner heat”, which is not different than any other non-buddhist traditions. Sukra is an indirect fuel for inner heat.

Celibacy is another thing. Vajrayana utilizes anything; it utilizes non-celibacy as well as celibacy. Meaning of celibacy for monk/nun or lay people is quite different.

Malcolm wrote:
As someone who is a doctor of Tibetan Medicine, and who studied Ayurveda in India, you are right about sukra being one of the seven main tissues of the body, but the waste product of sutra is bija, and the pure part is ojas. Ojas cultivation is the entire point of rasayana. The bija can be expelled without harm, but not the ojas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 7:21 AM
Title: Re: World Cup 2022
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I find the best approach is complete indifference to sports of all kinds...ok, maybe slightly interested in tennis...barely


reiun said:
For me, teammate connections were a precursor to sangha relations.
I don't compete against teams anymore, just personal goals swimming or lifting weights. Not fitting into sports is, to me, a missed opportunity for physical and mental  health.

Malcolm wrote:
Getting the shit kicked out of you daily  by jocks for being a “hippy” in 7th grade (1974) tends to severely attenuate one’s enthusiasm for team sports. I did play soccer at camp though, and that was fun.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 6:06 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I explained it in the post, the way I see many people (yes you included I guess, but I see lots of DC people talk this way too) post about Dzogchen

Malcolm wrote:
Most people who post about Dzogchen are fairly ignorant of the subject, and tend to rely on a few books and a few teachings they've received in week-long teachings they attended occasionally.

Some others have been in the game longer, have practiced and studied a lot, but since they don't know Tibetan, etc., their knowledge and understanding remains rather limited as well.

As ChNN said over and over again, in Dzogchen, understanding is more important than meditating. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 4:45 AM
Title: Functions of ejaculation in Tibetan medicine
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Split from science and celibacy thread: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=41491




Injrabodi said:
I have never seen a Buddhist tradition that advocates the spilling of seed for pleasure.

Malcolm wrote:
You haven't seen every Buddhist tradition.

Semen, sukra is a waste product. Ojas is the point, not sukra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:



oldbob said:
As stated before.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=648096#p648096

Of course knowledge of Dzogchen is also communicated by words and symbols, and precise practice instructions - communicated in words.

But this is a non-sequitor to the idea that knowledge of tsel, dang and rolpa, is nice but not necessary.

Malcolm wrote:
Only people of the very highest intellectual caliber, like you bob, are able to discover instant presence without the need for post-equipoise ascertainment.

The rest of us shmoes need words and symbols so we can figure it all out until we can be awesome fully hatched garudas like yourself. That's why we need the knowledge of rtsal, rol pa, and gdangs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:



oldbob said:
This is nice to know but not necessary to know information.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually it is. Why? Knowledge of the state of Dzogchen is communicated through words and symbols:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=648744#p648744

Otherwise, might as well just follow Ekhardt Tolle:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 6th, 2022 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: World Cup 2022
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I find the best approach is complete indifference to sports of all kinds...ok, maybe slightly interested in tennis...barely


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.

We have, for example, a text attributed to Vimalamitra on a nongradual approach, the The Meaning of the Sudden Entrants Nonconceptual Cultivation [cig car 'jug pa rnam par mi rtog pa'i bsgom don ], is preserved in the Tenjur. Does this really represent an Indian sutra-based simultaneous entry? Hard to say.

Natan said:
Rongzompa sites the Prajnaparamita Sutra and the Gandarvyuhasutra for the propositions of primordial purity and that ordinary sentient beings are pure by nature. He then goes on to reason in Establishing Appearances... that because of this nature ignorance is untenable as something to purify.

Malcolm wrote:
At the base of all Rongzom's reasonings is that everything is completely unreal, therefore, there is nothing to purify because ignorance is not something substantial or real that needs to be removed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 5th, 2022 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Keith Dowman's translations (continued)
Content:
PeterC said:
The objective when translating Dharma texts is not to be expressive but to be accurate, and with Dzogchen that means consistency in rendering of the core terminology. If you find that disappointing and want something more expressive, then there's plenty of bad but superficially poetic translations of Dzogchen texts out there - not Dowman's, but there is no shortage of inferior translators working in this field.

Zhen Li said:
Another thing to consider in translation is capacity to inspire a practitioner to practice, or to insight. Some of the best translators translate verse as verse, and do it quite well—this, inhernetly, means that accuracy is going to be lossed with a few rare exceptions where grammar and vocabulary of one line can be transposed into the grammar and vocabulary of English. E.g. Erik Pema Kunsang, sometimes Paul Harrison, most of the original PTS series, 100% of verse translated into Chinese (ever?). Translation is not just to provide someone with a map of what the original says—for someone in need of that kind of accuracy, they should just learn the source language—but to guide someone to the right action that suits their temperament.

PeterC said:
True, there are different objectives in doing a translation.  You might be attempting a poetic translation to try to capture your sense of the original.  But I think that depends on the genre a bit.  Dzogchen texts tend to have a significant didactic/technical bias even when it sounds like nice poetic language.  You see this when a lama takes what looks like a poem and explains the (at times, quite extraordinary) level of detail contained in it.  Chan/Zen poetry is a little different - I think poetic translations there are ok - but then you run into a different problem, that the original language is extremely concise, so it’s hard to match meter.

Translation is really about making choices, ultimately you can’t keep everyone happy (though it is entirely possible to get it totally wrong).  So you have to choose based on what you consider the most important function of the original text is.  I prefer translations that prioritize explaining the instructional content of a text, and that leads you down one particular path.

Malcolm wrote:
And a third problem arises when translators don’t explain their translations and why they chose this term over that term using some semblance of evidence-based reasoning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: (science) on celibacy
Content:


Injrabodi said:
I have to say it's very odd to encounter a Buddhist arguing against celibacy given the fact that the Buddha was celibate and there's a very wide plethora of Buddhist texts from all traditions advocating celibacy.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddha did not advocate celibacy for upasakas, ever.

The Buddha was very sexually active according every account until he was 29 or so. Then he left home. But he never expected all his followers to become renunciants. If they did, who would support the renunciant Sangha?

In any case, according to Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine, there are times of the year when men can engage in more or less unrestricted sexual activity with their proper partners (five times a day in winter) and times of the year when they should refrain from sexual activity beyond twice a month (summer) and ratios in between (spring and fall). The reason why is that sukra is a waste product (kita) left over from the final refinement of the pure portion our food (rasa) into ojas. In the summer one is likely to lose this ojas with sukra because in the summer we tend to eat less nutritionally dense food.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 11:52 AM
Title: Re: Yoga of the Crown Dzogchen
Content:
Passing By said:
Him and Guru Chowang seemed to have the most direct and straightforward approaches to Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
This just isn’t true, and is a fiction spun by western scholars.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 7:25 AM
Title: Re: World Cup 2022
Content:
Archie2009 said:
Just not obsessed with race like your society.

Malcolm wrote:
You don't have a history of systematic genocide and slavery in your country. The Dutch outsourced that to the Dutch colonies.

https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199730414/obo-9780199730414-0230.xml

It's different when you live in a country with people whom your ancestors tried to wipe out (Native people) and people whom your ancestors imported like domestic animals (Africans). Failing that, you then systematically oppressed them through the legal, educational, and legislative systems for a 100 years+. If this was the history of your country, you might have a slightly different attitude.

We are not obsessed, we are just trying to deal with the trauma of 5 centuries of oppression and its fall out. Some Americans are in denial (Republicans who wish it would all go away) and others experience guilt (many progressives).

America remains a a great place, however. I wouldn't really want to live anywhere else, because I am not high value enough to be a global nomad. Far from it. As demented as US politics are right now, it is still a good place to live.

Also, a lot of the obsession you see is actually coming from the right (suppressed guilt, aka denial). They are the ones freaking out about obscure shit like CRT, which they deliberately misrepresent. College students are eternally freaking out and always have.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 4th, 2022 at 7:13 AM
Title: Re: World Cup 2022
Content:
Queequeg said:
We can probably readily see this in the ways we dance.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, white people generally suffer from a deficit in this area. Too much clogging, not enough twerking...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 3rd, 2022 at 6:30 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


Kai lord said:
Its a pleasant surprise to learn that Thogal can be practiced indirectly as well...

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't say that or mean to imply that.

Kai lord said:
Ok my bad.......Jamyang Loter Wangpo wrote down his experiences for the first two visions of Thogal but too bad it wasn't translated yet.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes it has. But I am not prepared to share it at this point. But frankly, it’s no different than any other such texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 3rd, 2022 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


Kai lord said:
Its a pleasant surprise to learn that Thogal can be practiced indirectly as well...

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't say that or mean to imply that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 3rd, 2022 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Soma999 said:
This thread is not about ChNN view but thank you for sharing your opinion for those who care about it.

Malcolm wrote:
INdeed, I tried to move the conversation to another thread...this is not really about Garchen Rinpoche per se.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Natan said:
How did ChNN get his empowerment and from Changchub Dorje. Who remembers the story? ChNN went and pleaded with him for an empowerment and CD talked around it and gave some explanations. Finally when ChNN had enough of that game he demanded an empowerment and CD said he already gave him one in his dream. ChNN was still not satisfied and said that cannot be, because it was guru's dream not ChNN's and finally CD broke down and did some rudimentary empowerment just to shut him up.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN was unaware of this and would have continued to be unaware of this had he not pestered Chanchub Dorje. Susequent to the Shitro empowerment he requested, Chanchub Dorje gave ChNN the legendary direct introduction that was life changing for him. So, you left out the crucial point of the story.

But in any case, a dream is live, not memorex. And ChNN explicitly rejected the idea that transmissions of any kind could be received from recordings many, many times.

Natan said:
Folks over here act like they have some important knowledge, but it's bullshit

Malcolm wrote:
Yes they do, and it is.  Caveat emptor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 11:11 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Passing By said:
Thogal can be equated with shamatha and vipassana also like how the Two Stages can? That's very interesting and a clearer way to present it

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 10:04 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
conebeckham said:
Of course we Vajrayana practitioners recognize the primacy of the Guru.

Malcolm wrote:
There are four interrelated authorities. This is a very useful teaching as it is found in Lamdre, which is common teaching shared between Sakya and   the Kagyu traditions that stem from Phagmodru Dorje Gyalpo. This is the four authorities, which teachers I know as varied as HH Dalai Lama and ChNN have mentioned as very important.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 9:03 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:



Montoya said:
I don't find this to be particularly convincing. The whole premise of the fallacy is that saying "So and so says it's true, so it is" is not a very strong argument. However, throughout this thread you merely swap a human authority for a scriptural one. "Because the tantras say it is so, it is." I understand your point about falling into relativism if you don't draw a line in the sand somewhere, but that is also the whole notion behind the fallacy to begin with.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I actually gave reasonings based on the procedures of how empowerments are carried out. I supported my argument with reasoning and did not cite a single scripture. How could I? There is no mention of receiving empowerments from recordings in any classical text. How could there be? However, if, as has been reasoned, a recorded empowerment does not ripen a student for the reasons I stated above, the clear consequence is that the student has not received a ripening empowerment and therefore, in the case of a total beginner, is not eligible to practice any Vajrayāna teaching, let alone hear them. In this case, there are a number of scriptural authorities that come into play about the necessity of receiving empowerments. Claiming the opposite, without providing any other reasons than what amounts to "He said so" is purely argumentum ab auctoritate.

tobes said:
But here you must admit that one could draw other kinds of inferences (from other kinds of places) that contradict this particular one. They may not be about procedure; they may be about intent or bodhicitta or samaya or some other kind of precedent. i.e. we are no longer in the sphere of what a text says, but rather, what we choose to draw out of it on the basis of our knowledge, intent and understanding.

Malcolm wrote:
Ockham's razor.


tobes said:
For example, I heard HHDL make such an argument for a student who badly wanted a Kalachakra wang, but got held up and couldn't attend. He used the scriptural precedent of Shakyamuni giving refuge to a person who was similarly stuck afar as the basis for his inference that she could enter the mandala from afar. One might respond: oh, wow, he's using to sutra to justify tantra?? But, well, this HHDL. Authority, when it is well grounded, clearly matters here.

Malcolm wrote:
This was in reference to attending the preliminary day of the empowerment. And, it was live. Not from a recording. My entire point has to do with live vs. memorex.
image.jpeg (29.95 KiB) Viewed 761 times
I am not basing my argument on specious claims about supernormal powers, etc. My argument is based simply on the dependent origination of the process of empowerment. So far, apart from mystical interpretations which depend on another fallacy, special pleading, which Seeker and Soma are prone to, the only objections to my points are arguments from authority, which I have already dispensed with summarily.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 7:24 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Are you saying that direct perception (rigpa), of the nature of mind (mind essence, chos nyid), corresponds with an intellectual understanding that is established prior to that direct perception?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, necessarily so:

In Dzogchen we have three main methods of transmission: oral, symbolic, and direct transmission. The first, oral transmission, implies that the teacher transmits by explaining what is the base and what is knowledge (rig pa), and how one can have that knowledge. The student listens and follows, and he or she can have at least an idea of what Dzogchen means. The oral transmission is also linked with the symbolic transmission in that in the latter some symbolic objects are used to make that knowledge understood...The third method, direct transmission, implies one already has knowledge of the oral and symbolic transmission. Through these two, one has an idea of how to enter into the real nature; then by using different experiences together and entering in that real nature at the same moment with one's teacher, there is a possibility that one receives the direct transmission. So direct transmission implies the possibility of receiving knowledge, when the student already knows how to work while the teacher transmits that knowledge."

Chogyal Namkahi Norbu, Song of the Vajra, pp.3-5. Dzogchen Community of American, 1992.

It is also explained in this way in the Dzogchen tantras and all the commentaries that touch on the subject of introduction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 7:10 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Soma999 said:
With texts alone you are stuck with the letters.
With the guru you reach the essence of the text.

The guru which is more than a person, which is a principle, is way above texts. They allow us to really perceive the essence of the text and integrate its wisdom.

Texts can make us fundamentalist, more especially if the letter is grasped. Guru awaken wisdom within so that the texts become a door to wisdom.

Guru is also inner wisdom, that shines as boddicitta reveals its presence.

Without the help of the guru principle, the texts are just letters.

It is easy to delude oneself with over-intellectualism on text. Gurus prevent this danger.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no "guru principle" which is like Krishna consciousness.

Gurus are not omnipotent magical beings. They are human beings, some of them might actually be realized. Most of them are not.

The tantras described their qualities in human terms because they are humans.

The only person who awakens the wisdom within is oneself. The guru merely aids this process, as the Hevajra Tantra points out:

Here there is no method and wisdom,
the appearance of true reality
can’t be described by another,
the connate cannot be found anywhere,
but one can understand it in dependence on the Guru, 
time, method, and from one’s merit.

So, not even a guru is sufficient, there is more to it than that, which is why the question of empowerment is so crucial.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 6:43 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
ZopaChotso said:
He says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.

Malcolm wrote:
Argument from authority: a formal fallacy in which it is argued that because a perceived authority figure (or figures) believes a proposition (relevant to their authority) to be true, that proposition must therefore be true. This is also known as an appeal to authority.

We don't accept arguments from authority in Buddhism, not even in Vajrayāna.

Montoya said:
I don't find this to be particularly convincing. The whole premise of the fallacy is that saying "So and so says it's true, so it is" is not a very strong argument. However, throughout this thread you merely swap a human authority for a scriptural one. "Because the tantras say it is so, it is." I understand your point about falling into relativism if you don't draw a line in the sand somewhere, but that is also the whole notion behind the fallacy to begin with.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I actually gave reasonings based on the procedures of how empowerments are carried out. I supported my argument with reasoning and did not cite a single scripture. How could I? There is no mention of receiving empowerments from recordings in any classical text. How could there be? However, if, as has been reasoned, a recorded empowerment does not ripen a student for the reasons I stated above, the clear consequence is that the student has not received a ripening empowerment and therefore, in the case of a total beginner, is not eligible to practice any Vajrayāna teaching, let alone hear them. In this case, there are a number of scriptural authorities that come into play about the necessity of receiving empowerments. Claiming the opposite, without providing any other reasons than what amounts to "He said so" is purely argumentum ab auctoritate.

To clarify, this really isn't about Garchen Rinpoche and his opinions specifically. This is about preventing a general collapse of the tradition. If one can receive an empowerment from a recording, then it would be simple to just record a nice version of one, complete with animated visualizations, a virtual guru, a digitized voice, etc., just as long as the text is rendered in full and it is authorized by some authority.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
ZopaChotso said:
He says recorded empowerments are fine, therefore they are fine.

Malcolm wrote:
Argument from authority: a formal fallacy in which it is argued that because a perceived authority figure (or figures) believes a proposition (relevant to their authority) to be true, that proposition must therefore be true. This is also known as an appeal to authority.

We don't accept arguments from authority in Buddhism, not even in Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:




Jules 09 said:
So, it's not what is pointed out by a guru.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is what is pointed out by the guru, but there are rim gyi pas, gradual trainees, who are unable to be in that state for whatever reason, purification, merit, training and so on. But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.

Jules 09 said:
Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.

Malcolm wrote:
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained  in connection with the view of the Great Perfection for those who are unable to abide in suchness in the manner of the Great Perfection. Why? The great bliss of bodhicitta, pure perfect mind, is the root of the Dharma."

He then goes on to describe how to indirectly approach the great perfection through common śamatha and vipaśyanā as well as the six limb yoga (ṣadaṅgayoga) system of secret mantra: pratyāhāra, dhyāna, prāṇāyama, dhāraṇa, smṛti, and samādhi. However, the way he explains these is quite different from the way they are explained in Kalacakra, where pratyāhāra is explained first to be a practice in the dark, and then a practice in the light, and so on.

He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.

Jules 09 said:
He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained
"He" = Rongzom?
But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.
He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.
So, this "view of Atiyoga" that you talk of here, "which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang";
it seems as though you are saying that it is something that can be comprehended by the intellect?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is something which can be comprehended intellectually, however, the actual view is a direct perception, the meaning pristine consciousness, as exemplified in this passage by Candrakīrti, "The cessation of the mind is directly perceived by the kāya."

However, on the indirect path, for example, similar to the idea the famed Khenpo Ngachung states that in the cultivation of thögal, a) the first two visions are equivalent to śamatha as concepts do arise toward the object, the visions of the pristine consciousness of one's vidyā, and that b) during this phase of the practice, it is sufficient to merely have a good intellectual grasp of emptiness. Khenpo Ngachung also notes:

Since the pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those with sharp capacity is very sharp, there is no need to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise. [40/b] The pristine consciousness of the equipoise of those of dull capacity needs to rely on the ascertainment of post-equipoise and by the difference of whether one needs or does not need to settle in such ascertainment, one’s path is swift or slow. But there is no good or bad in the type of realization.

Those who do not need to ascertain pristine consciousness in post-equipoise are cig car was. But there are very few of those. As Zhigpo Dudtsi, a famous thirteenth century Dzogchen master stated, "I have searched high and low among the siddhas of India and Tibet, and while I cannot rule out the possibility of others, the only cig car was I know of are Saraha and Lingje Repa (founder of the Drukpa Kagyu)."

Most of us are people who have a need to confirm their experience with concepts in post-equipoise, just like ārya bodhisattvas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Jules 09 said:
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen.
So, it's not what is pointed out by a guru.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is what is pointed out by the guru.

Just to clarify, i made a slight error, he describes of Dzogchen equipoise as follows:

In brief, comprehending all phenomena to be completely equivalent with mirages and illusions is the comprehension of the meaning of  Great Perfection, called “view”. Abiding without being separate from such a comprehending mind is called “being connected with the vessel of total awareness.” (shes bzhin chen po) Under its influence, not using any effort at all is “abiding in the state of total equanimity ” (gtan snyoms chen po), i.e. “meditation”. [111/b] Those three sentences complete the view and meditation of the Great Perfection in its entirety.

The indirect method is for those who cannot be in this state: gradual trainees, who are unable to be in that state for whatever reason, purification, merit, training and so on. But as long as they can understand Dzogchen intellectually, they can still train.

He states, "Now the path sought with effort is explained  in connection with the view of the Great Perfection for those who are unable to abide in suchness in the manner of the Great Perfection. Why? The great bliss of bodhicitta, pure perfect mind, is the root of the Dharma."

He then goes on to describe how to indirectly approach the great perfection through common śamatha and vipaśyanā as well as the six limb yoga (ṣadaṅgayoga) system of secret mantra: sense isolation (pratyāhāra), concentration (dhyāna), prāṇāyama, sustaining (dhāraṇa), mindfulness (smṛti), and samādhi. However, the way he explains these is quite different from the way they are explained in Kalacakra, where pratyāhāra is explained first to be a practice in the dark, and then a practice in the light, and so on.

He explains both approaches in some detail, without marking a preference for one over the other. Indeed, he rejects such preference, because for him, the essential point in both approaches is the same: they are based in the view of Atiyoga, which is pointed out during the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.

He closes his text by remarking that any practice connected with Dzogchen view will be skillful, but if it is not connected with Dzogchen view, it will not be skillful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Musk, guns and a vajra
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Basically, I have a good idea who Musk is without needing the media to be a certain way, and he’s gross.

Malcolm wrote:
Strangely, he is the guy who developed Skylink, which is poised to become Skynet:
image.png (65.99 KiB) Viewed 983 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 2nd, 2022 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Musk, guns and a vajra
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
It's not possible to form a reasonable opinion on the tech industry based on the media anymore.

Malcolm wrote:
???

You understand that this undermines anything you might say?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Musk, guns and a vajra
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
More Musk fodder, monkeys typing on a computer "telepathically" using Neuralink.
Neuralink, the company that Elon Musk founded in 2016 with the vision of implanting a chip in people’s brains, is getting close to an important milestone: a human clinical trial of its technology.

But behind the scenes, the company has been plagued by dysfunctional management, Musk’s inconsistent involvement, and the lack of a clear chain of command, according to a half-dozen former Neuralink employees Fortune interviewed for a recent feature. That turmoil, the former employees say, has contributed to the departures of several key figures at the startup, including its day-to-day operational leader.

Malcolm wrote:
https://fortune.com/2022/01/31/neuralink-elon-musk-brain-implant-startup-leadership-turmoil-max-hodak/

Sound familiar???


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Passing By said:
Do semde and menngagde differ much in view, path and fruit?

Malcolm wrote:
You should consult the Chos dbying mdzod commentary on this. But briefly put, sems sde mainly concerns the basis and man ngag sde mainly concerns the path and result. Klong sde links sems sde and man ngag sde.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:




Passing By said:
In short then, can it be said that Dzogchen samadhi is simply being as alert and present as possible in all cases? (the usual instructions of "without reference point, don't reject, don't follow, be in the presence of awareness, don't contrive" etc)

How does it differ from shamatha in other vehicles?

Malcolm wrote:
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen. Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.

Passing By said:
And how does this shamatha used for this indirect method differ from the shamatha in say, kyerim practice or Theravada?

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn't, it's exactly the same, other than it is done from the point with the Dzogchen view. You should read chapter 6 in Rongzom's Intro to Mahāyāna Systems, where he describes this in detail. It follows chapter 5, which is a detailed presentation of Dzogchen view based in the sems sde texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:



Passing By said:
BTW, everyone talks about lung and wang, but what about recorded instructions and teachings? For example, someone gives teaching on some Dzogchen text. You are there live online or in person when pointing out / guru yoga is given. Then what about the rest of the teaching where the teacher is explaining the text etc....Does that have to be live also?

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily. But if one wants a lung of the text, then one needs to participate live. To this end some teachers give the lung of the text before hand or after, so that people can participate through recordings of the explanation.

Passing By said:
I don't see lamas having much qualms giving recorded Dzogchen instructions provided one has had transmission but I do recall you saying also that in Dzogchen, as long as the teacher is intending to transmit trekcho/thogal instructions etc then the teachings themselves count as direct introduction so what is the jury on recorded teachings?

Malcolm wrote:
This assumes you have received empowerment, understand and have experience with the example pristine consciousness, the meaning pristine consciousness, and the "proof" or "sign" pristine consciousness. Then it is fine. It's like reading a text whose contents you already understand.

But its always better to participate live.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:



Kai lord said:
Why is calm abiding insufficient? And  Wouldn't the bliss one experience in first jhana interfere with the cultivation of dzogchen view?

Malcolm wrote:
The goal here, as Rongzom says, is absolute mindfulness (dran pa) encompassed by total awareness (shes bzhin).

No, vitarka and vicara are still present, therefor, one can switch objects and so on.


Passing By said:
In short then, can it be said that Dzogchen samadhi is simply being as alert and present as possible in all cases? (the usual instructions of "without reference point, don't reject, don't follow, be in the presence of awareness, don't contrive" etc)

How does it differ from shamatha in other vehicles?

Malcolm wrote:
This is not Dzogchen contemplation, this is the indirect way for realizing Dzogchen. Common shamatha or mantra practice combined with an intellectual comprehension of Dzogchen view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:



Shaiksha said:
But, in theory, it is possible to prove the efficacy of the method. No?

Malcolm wrote:
Some online empowerments are possible. Others are not. Recorded empowerments cannot ripen anyone for the reasons described above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Kai lord said:
bardo....

Malcolm wrote:
Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.

Kai lord said:
Yes agreed but why seven? Why that number?

Malcolm wrote:
Its the number we find in the Lama Yantik, Gongpa Zangthal, and so on. As for why,  I have not seen a reason given.

I can speculate however that it may have to do with the fact that our bodies in the bardo lack the seven tissues, rasa to sukra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Kai lord said:
bardo....

Malcolm wrote:
Which is easier, because we will have seven times more clarity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 1st, 2022 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, outer objects are not a self appearance of the mind.
It means being able to be in the presence of the sambhogakaya directly; the sambhogakaya is a rupakaya.

Pietrepa said:
Thus, bodhisattvas on pure bhumis can hang out with actual buddhas in their sambhogakaya form, while those on impure bhumis only have visions of their own potentiality similar to the famous visions of a certain too-often-discussed practice here on the forum that merely resembles the buddhas, i.e. visionary forms of buddhas, yabyums, etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.

The difference is that it takes common Mahāyāna bodhisattvas two incalculable eons to reach the pure bhumis. For example, bodhisattvas on the first bhumi can visit an hundred buddhafields, see one hundred nirmāṇakāyas and so on, but the amount of time they have to spend on the paths of accumulation, application, and cultivation is daunting.

For this reason, we have Vajrayāna for those of sharper capacity. Tripitikamala states:

Although the goal is the same, since it is unconfused,
with many methods, not difficult,
and mastered by those of sharp faculties,
Mantrayāna is superior.

As Dzogchen teachings is the pinnacle of secret mantra, buddhahood may take only a few years at most if one is especially diligent. If not, then it is certain to occur in the bardo or in the next life without entering samsara again.

But in general, the purpose of secret mantra is buddhahood in this life, so it does not matter much which approach one takes. However, if one is not properly ripened, then there is no hope and one's desire for liberation will not be met. If one attempts to practice the liberating instructions without the basis of the ripening empowerment from a qualified teacher given properly, one's effort will be no better than trying to get oil from grinding stones.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Musk, guns and a vajra
Content:
Archie2009 said:
Aren't his vertically landing rockets a success, though?

Malcolm wrote:
Not financially. Musk secured another round of funding for Spacex in July. Tesla survives on subsidies from the US Gvt.


dharmafootsteps said:
What does grifter mean in this context?

Malcolm wrote:
The same thing it means in general. Just take a look at all the failed businesses he was bailed out of.

dharmafootsteps said:
Grifter would imply to me that he's fleecing people for money, but that doesn't appear to be his aim.

Malcolm wrote:
He is, he is very good at it.


dharmafootsteps said:
He's multiple times bet his whole companies, including his own money, on advancing technologies where a grifter or pure capitalist would have never done so.

Malcolm wrote:
His mentality is like that of other grifters, which is that he has a gambler, and likes the excitement of risk. Trump is the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:



Natan said:
The first Dudjom from 150 years ago. Are you sure? And Jigmed Lingpa? Had no human guru. KDL told the story from his lips. Ok? He met human gurus later. But initially it was him and Guru Rinpoche no one else. Period. Punto over. Complete

Malcolm wrote:
Jigme Lingpa had a human guru, of course:

https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies/view/Jigme-Lingpa/TBRC_P314

Kunzang Dechen Lingpa was my master, with whom I spent a great deal of time. He never failed to place a picture of Dudjom Rinpoche on shrines at teachings. Orphaned at a very young age, he left the household where he was living because he wanted to practice the Dharma. And he went to central Tibet and found teachers who taught him. Frankly, I know his outer, inner, and secret bio better than anyone here.

The record is very clear in Dudjom Lingpa's own autobiography.

Natan said:
That's the story he told and the reason he told it was to say devotion is the best. But you know everything better than everyone because ChNN was your toot guru

Malcolm wrote:
The story he told is in his autobiography. There is no denying that his devotion to Padmasambhava was absolute. But your claim that initially it was him and Guru Rinpoche simply false. He was considered an emanation of Guru Rinpoche because he asserted that his conception was a result of  a red ball of light from the union of Guru Rinpoche and Yeshe Tsogyal that travelled from Zangdok Palri and entered his mother while his parents were in union.

You can read elements of his largely autobiographical account here:

https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:87c510cd-7fec-4366-b9d3-27561eb8317d/download_file?file_format=application%2Fpdf&safe_filename=THESIS01&type_of_work=Thesis

You won't find any accounts of him receiving empowerments from Guru Rinpoche. You will find an account of him searching everywhere high and low for a teacher, however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 8:01 PM
Title: Re: Musk, guns and a vajra
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
If you look at the situation surrounding his purchase of Twitter, it also seems to call into question his basic business acumen, and shows just how juvenile and rose colored his notions of free speech are.

Malcolm wrote:
He’s a tech grifter who has managed to keep his grift going for nearly a quarter of a century. He’s never led  a company to genuine profitability, not one.

His cars are shit. He just keeps adding investors to keep his  enterprises solvent.

His character is irrelevant.

Archie2009 said:
Aren't his vertically landing rockets a success, though?

Malcolm wrote:
Not financially. Musk secured another round of funding for Spacex in July. Tesla survives on subsidies from the US Gvt.


dharmafootsteps said:
What does grifter mean in this context?

Malcolm wrote:
The same thing it means in general. Just take a look at all the failed businesses he was bailed out of.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
tobes said:
It's all very messy and inconsistent by it's very nature.

Malcolm wrote:
Humans are inconsistent and messy. The sūtras and tantras themselves, not at all, unless you think they are human compositions, in which case, there are no reliable authorities apart from one's personal opinions. It follows then, there is no validity at all to anyone's point of view about anything that has to do with Buddhadharma. Buddhadharma becomes Twitter, which sadly, here is often the case.

As far as epistemic authority goes, first the scriptures, then the Indian siddhas and paṇḍitas, etc.

tobes said:
I'm not suggesting we descend to some 'anything goes' subjective relativism.

But I think it is plainly the case with respect to sutras, that there is enormous inconsistency - and that is resolved to some degree by discerning provisional from ultimate meanings....and then we basically rely on logic to define the latter. But even then, so many Madhyamakas....so much disagreement!

As far as tantra goes, do you think we can justly situate Garchen Rinpoche outside the epistemic context of scriptures, mahasiddhas and panditas? That context is pretty darn pluralistic and diverse. There's room for a lot of different approaches, some which some find acceptable and others don't.

Malcolm wrote:
Indian Madhyamikas differed only on pedagogy, not on view.

Indian Vajrayanists differed only on the relative importance of the two stages to one another, but not on the need for proper ripening through empowerments conducted correctly.

I don’t have much of an opinion about Garchen Rinpoche, per se, other than that he is a very nice person. He’s doing the best he can.

But for reasons already stated, recorded empowerments lack the ability to ripen anyone, and I am happy to disagree with anyone who claims the opposite. If someone wants to view one of these things and imagine they’ve actually received an empowerment or lung from a recording, all I can do is shake my head and explain why they are mistaken.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Musk, guns and a vajra
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
If you look at the situation surrounding his purchase of Twitter, it also seems to call into question his basic business acumen, and shows just how juvenile and rose colored his notions of free speech are.

Malcolm wrote:
He’s a tech grifter who has managed to keep his grift going for nearly a quarter of a century. He’s never led  a company to genuine profitability, not one.

His cars are shit. He just keeps adding investors to keep his  enterprises solvent.

His character is irrelevant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 7:25 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:







Seeker12 said:
When it says these are self-appearances, this means these bodhisattvas are only perceiving simulacrum of the sambhogakāya, a reflection, which arises as a self-appearance out of their own minds. Only bodhisattvas on the pure bhumis can perceive the sambhogakāya directly, as the earlier passage from the same text which I provide above clearly states.

Passing By said:
Are there even kayas or anything else which is not a self-appearance of one's mind? What does "perceiving the sambhogakaya directly" actually entail?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, outer objects are not a self appearance of the mind.

It means being able to be in the presence of the sambhogakaya directly; the sambhogakaya is a rupakaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to Dzogchen teachings, the ālaya and the dharmakāya can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in this life. Mind (sems) and pristine consciousness (ye shes) can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of the moment of death.

Kai lord said:
Sorry for a slight but shouldn't these two be swap?

At the time of death, our mental activities and consciousnesses are reduced to most basic state, alaya and highly practitioners are able to recognize objective clear light which is the manifestation of Dharmakaya and stay in that state of absorption for hours if not days.

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen lingo, the kun gzhi is the most subtle knowledge obscuration of ignorance. So same term, different meaning, different system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 12:08 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
tobes said:
It's all very messy and inconsistent by it's very nature.

Malcolm wrote:
Humans are inconsistent and messy. The sūtras and tantras themselves, not at all, unless you think they are human compositions, in which case, there are no reliable authorities apart from one's personal opinions. It follows then, there is no validity at all to anyone's point of view about anything that has to do with Buddhadharma. Buddhadharma becomes Twitter, which sadly, here is often the case.

As far as epistemic authority goes, first the scriptures, then the Indian siddhas and paṇḍitas, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 10:09 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
tobes said:
The more general question seems to be: where is does the epistemic authority for Vajrayana - in general - lie?

If we say: what is written in the Tantras, then we are privileging text ahead of guru…

Malcolm wrote:
We accept, axiomatically, that the tantras arise from an nonerroneous source. But it’s clear gurus can be in error. There is no tantra, anywhere, that asserts gurus are axiomatically faultless.

The point of the Dzogchen Tantras I cited make this point. There are many other tantras, both sarma and Nyingma that reinforce my points.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: Rev. Cirlea's books - good or not?
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
I know Rev. Adrian Cirlea has started his own breakaway Jodo Shinshu group and has split from Hongwanji-ha. I personally do not agree with his political views. However, he has written a lot of books in English on Jodo Shinshu, and they are available for free on his website.

Have any of you read any of his books? If so, is what he is teaching in line with Hongwanji and are there any deviances from orthodox Shin teaching that one should be aware of?

I'd like to read his books but I also want to learn what the Hongwanji teaches and not just one guy's own view of Shinran Shōnin's teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
He’s a fascist nut job. Avoid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 7:25 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Seeker12 said:
\
I'm not inclined to comment line by line on that one, to be honest, as it's kind of a mess

Malcolm wrote:
The only mess here is the febrile stew of your misquotes and misconceptions.

Seeker12 said:
Generally with authentic realization, indeed one can receive transmission from rocks or trees or whatever as essentially all form is realized to be indivisible from the body of Vairochana, to put it a certain way.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so first you have to be realized...and how do you get that way?

And if you are realized, what transmissions are you lacking?

Its amazing you cannot see the contradictions in your statements.

So to bring it back around, if you are realized, you can receive an empowerment from a recording of an empowerment? Is that it? But what if you are not realized? How does that work. Can some guru just hand you liberation through the power of their samādhi? You're talking nonsense and you know it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 7:21 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:



Seeker12 said:
One other point is that when one authentically realizes pointing out, this is basically the master empowerment,

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is the fourth empowerment. The vajra master empowerment is part of the vase empowerment.


Seeker12 said:
and it could be compared to light - if one realizes clear light, then inherent in the clear light are all potential colors. If one authentically realizes emptiness,

Malcolm wrote:
No, because the 'od gsal in sūtra, even if one argues it is the same as in Dzogchen, there are no methods taught in sūtra to work with it, because the notion of lhun grub and practices that work with lhun grub are missing in all of the nine yāna, let alone sūtra.


Seeker12 said:
At the time of the path of seeing, the ignorance of imputed false conceptions is transformed into the dharmadhatu wisdom. Attaining the first bhumi, "supremely joyful," we see Vairochana.
This discussion is not only about the pure bhumis.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not grasped the essential point here, because you have not understood the text.

When it says these are self-appearances, this means these bodhisattvas are only perceiving simulacrum of the sambhogakāya, a reflection, which arises as a self-appearance out of their own minds. Only bodhisattvas on the pure bhumis can perceive the sambhogakāya directly, as the earlier passage from the same text which I provide above clearly states.

Seeker12 said:
Here, depending on the need, for instance one may receive empowerment from the wisdom body of Longchenpa. As Jigme Lingpa did.

Malcolm wrote:
In the middle of his second three year retreat, after he had been practicing Vajrayāna for two decades.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 6:25 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Natan said:
Then we should throw Jigmed Lingpa, Dudjom Lingpa and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa in the garbage right?

stoneinfocus said:
All of these tertons had human lamas. Dudjom Lingpa is commonly used as an example of someone who didn't, but he mentions his human lamas multiple times in his own autobiography. And KDL was a student of Dudjom Rinpoche, so not sure where that's coming from...

Natan said:
The first Dudjom from 150 years ago. Are you sure? And Jigmed Lingpa? Had no human guru. KDL told the story from his lips. Ok? He met human gurus later. But initially it was him and Guru Rinpoche no one else. Period. Punto over. Complete

Malcolm wrote:
Jigme Lingpa had a human guru, of course:

https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies/view/Jigme-Lingpa/TBRC_P314

Kunzang Dechen Lingpa was my master, with whom I spent a great deal of time. He never failed to place a picture of Dudjom Rinpoche on shrines at teachings. Orphaned at a very young age, he left the household where he was living because he wanted to practice the Dharma. And he went to central Tibet and found teachers who taught him. Frankly, I know his outer, inner, and secret bio better than anyone here.

The record is very clear in Dudjom Lingpa's own autobiography.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As quoted by Dudjom Rinpoche in his big red book,
[/quote]

This does not mean that you have the fortune to hear Vajrayāna or Dzogchen teachings as a bodhisattva on the stages.


Seeker12 said:
Also, as has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, according to Longchenpa, Bodhisattvas on the 10 Bhumis can/will perceive the half-nirmanakayas. It's not just on the pure bhumis, this is specified as on the 10 Bhumis.

Malcolm wrote:
Which again you've failed to read correctly or carefully, as Longchenpa states in the Great Chariot

Seeker12 said:
The pure bodhisattvas also are made to attain the five kayas and five wisdoms. Depending on their having purified the five kleshas, the teachers of the five families, the fields, the Dharma, and the retinue and so forth appear to them :

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/the-great-chariot/d/doc213072.html

You also have not understood the meaning pf half-kāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
stoneinfocus said:
Dudjom Lingpa is commonly used as an example of someone who didn't,

Malcolm wrote:
Alan Wallace is chiefly responsible for this misapprehension and he repeats it to his students over and over again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: World Cup 2022
Content:



Natan said:
Dude.. imagine a world where you can't find any valid information about the world....

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is what it is like for viewers of Fox News


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
According to Dzogchen teachings, the ālaya and the dharmakāya can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in this life. Mind (sems) and pristine consciousness (ye shes) can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of the moment of death. The pure and impure elements can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of dharmatā. Samsara and nirvana can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in one of the natural nirmāṇakāya buddhafields. Vimalamitra writes about this with clarity and detail in the commentary on the Blazing Lamp Tantra.

Pietrepa said:
Weird. I thought that each of these realizations meant that the previous ones took place. That is, someone who has realized the separation of alaya from dharmakaya has realized all the subsequent separations mentioned in your statement during his lifetime?

Malcolm wrote:
These differentiations are what cause liberation in these four bardos.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Soma999 said:
Is it possible to receive empowerments in other forms. Of course. Can we delude oneself and imagine all kind of things ? True also. Does that mean we should not try to come in contact with masters ? Not at all. We should come in contact with true masters

Seeker12 said:
Indeed, I did not mean to imply otherwise, in general.

In general, the main reason for expressing the perspective that I have expressed is basically twofold - first, it doesn't get expressed very often it seems, and second, and more importantly perhaps, I think there are many people who - without knowing it - basically denigrate noble sangha because said noble sangha do not have the obvious 'credentials' that they think are necessary.

Malcolm wrote:
This is basically nonsense, just something you made up.

Your citation about variegated nirmaṇākāyas does not mean you can receive an empowerment from a nirmaṇakāya bridge, rock, tree, etc.

Continuing to repeat your statement about "mind and wisdom mind" is just a mantra you have charmed yourself with.

If you have no outer guru (ripening empowerment and liberating instructions), you wont have an inner guru (your practice), so you can realize the secret  guru (wisdom).

Claiming that people are slandering the noble sangha because they don't agree with your bizarre and incorrect interpretations is frankly silly and childish.

Encouraging people to think they can receive empowerments from magical rocks and trees is downright irresponsible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Soma999 said:
There is not « one » buddhism, but multiple approach. You have the complete right to not be in alignement with some dogmas are follow uour inner guidance and the wisdom transmitted with real guru, who do not make you full of concepts, but simplify yourself so you can hear wisdom inside.

Malcolm wrote:
You can do whatever you want, but don't call it Vajrayāna if does not correspond to the tantras of secret mantra. There are a thousand new age trips out there, like the one you two are on, just don't call it Buddhadharma, because it does not correspond to Buddhadharma. These opinions of yours are just personal fabricationsyou are pulling out of your asses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 30th, 2022 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:


Terma said:
But it is a sticky situation, as if a teacher is your guru you should (hopefully) have supreme faith in them, and follow what they prescribe.

Malcolm wrote:
The Tantra Without Syllables has this to say on that score:

There are no errors in the scriptures, but errors can arise in the intimate instructions.

Vimalamitra comments:

However, since the explanation of the instructions of the guru can be explained with or without error, it seems that errors can arise

Tantra without Syllables, pg. 148.

Since this is the case, one cannot just blindly accept anything one guru says, especially if it contradicts the sutras and tantras.

As for the reason why human beings need human gurus, and not rocks, books, and trees:

Though the nature of vidyā pervades all, the dharmakāya is encountered in the instructions.

As such, the nature of vidyā pervades all migrating beings, [90a] but they do not understand the instructions of the guru for encountering
the dharmakāya in direct perception. Vidyā cannot be found through an intellectual analysis of the body that is searched from head to foot. On the one hand, if it is asked whether vidyā exists in the body or not, it definitely exists in the body. On the other hand, [vidyā] is not nonexistent merely because it cannot be found through being sought with intellectual analysis. You are unable to find it because you lack the intimate instructions of the guru. Similarly, gold can be shaped by anyone who knows how to work with it, but the person who does not know how to shape it, nor how to refine it, nor how to smelt it and heat it, will not be able to work with gold, no matter how much intellectual analysis they perform. On the other hand, it is not the case that the gold itself is unworkable. Since there is an intimate instruction for refining it and so on, one can work with gold. The one who lacks the intimate instructions of the guru has no hope of buddhahood.

Tantra without Syllables, pg. 202.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:


Seeker12 said:
Your understanding is coarse.


Malcolm wrote:
Your understanding is defective, that's why I point out your errors. You should consider it a kindness that I do so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no empowerment if there is no guru.

Seeker12 said:
This is true, and yet it can be understood on various levels, basically speaking.

There may, for instance, be a bodhisattva who is on the lower bhumis who is born and does not consciously know that they are a bodhisattva on the bhumis. They may live their life to a certain point and then they may, for instance, come across a picture of Tara in a book, or a mantra written on a rock, or whatever, and it may strike them with a certain force and ignite a certain disposition. They may then look into it and start meditating on Tara, saying her mantra, and they may have an experience where Tara's wisdom body reveals itself to them and they receive transmission in this manner.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but this is a fantasy, and there is no "arya bodhisattva" exception. This is why those common Mahāyāna bodhisattvas, who lack the fortune of meeting a qualified Vajrayāna guru, need to traverse all ten stages over three incalculable eons until at the end of the tenth stage they receive abhiśeka from all the buddhas in the ten directions, as described in the Avatamsaka Sutra, the Lanka, etc.  Tenth stage bodhisattvas still retain a very evanescent knowledge obscuration. If one wishes to bypass this three incalculable eon requirement, one must meet a qualified Vajrayāna guru, then it is possible but not otherwise.

Seeker12 said:
Indeed, this is a manifestation of the Guru - the Guru can manifest in myriad ways. The Guru may manifest as a mantra on a rock, or a wind blown into one's face - these are types of nirmanakaya manifestations.

Malcolm wrote:
You have to have a guru first. And that does not happen absent a ripening empowerment.

Seeker12 said:
In essence, a sentient being is basically a conjured being who conceives of him or herself as a separate thing secondary to fundamental ignorance, and in essence, the guru is wisdom itself. It is indeed the case that all sentient beings need the guru, but the guru may manifest in many ways, depending on the merit, inclinations, etc of the sentient beings.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but rocks and trees are not gurus, as they cannot impart ripening empowerments, they are not sentient.

Seeker12 said:
As Dudjom Lingpa writes,

"Ultimately, simply by identifying the dharmakāya, pristine awareness that is present in the ground...

Malcolm wrote:
That won't happen even for a common Mahāyāna 10th stage bodhisattva, since in reality only buddhas can see the actual dharmakāya.

According to Dzogchen teachings, the ālaya and the dharmakāya can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in this life. Mind (sems) and pristine consciousness (ye shes) can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of the moment of death. The pure and impure elements can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in the bardo of dharmatā. Samsara and nirvana can be differentiated only by someone who has attained full buddhahood in one of the natural nirmāṇakāya buddhafields. Vimalamitra writes about this with clarity and detail in the commentary on the Blazing Lamp Tantra.

All of this moot for someone who has not entered Vajrayāna, let alone Dzogchen teachings.

The appearance of Vajrayāna is a rare as stars in the daytime. Its sad when I see people who consider themselves Vajrayāna practitioners indulging in fantasies which actually serve only to hasten the decline of the Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:
Tata1 said:
Chnn was not a fan of tulku system

Malcolm wrote:
I heard from a reliable source a reincarnation of ChNN has been identified. I have no other details than this, but source is highly placed within the DC.

florin said:
Does this imply Rinpoche left a letter with instructions?

Malcolm wrote:
I imagine, just my guess, that this recognition happened in Tibet, by Tibetans, for Tibetan reasons, which have nothing to do with the DC, Longsal, or even Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 11:04 AM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Well there are Body, Speech, Mind, Qualities, and Activities Incarnations (i.e. there can be at least five) of any given Tulku.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a somewhat modern Tibetan system, that really has no precedent prior the 18th century of which I am aware. And even the earlier system has no basis outside of Tibet.

Moreover, actual Tulkus, nirmanakays, have no such limitations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 9:56 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism before Gautama Buddha
Content:
Jokingfish said:
Is it true that in history (earth's civilization) there was no one on any stage of enlightenment (at least stream entrance) before Gautama? No buddha, no sangha, no dharma, so how can stream entrance come?

Malcolm wrote:
There were pratyekabuddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 9:49 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...when the jñānasattvas are dismissed. One must do this before dismantling the mandala...


Sādhaka said:
Then how is it that some Deity Mandalas are said to be eternally open; whereas others are said to be closed, after some time...?

Malcolm wrote:
You are confusing the fact that Cakrasamvara is considered to be the most effective practice (by its practitioners) because the Heruka nirmanakaya continues to be present in the 24 countries, with the process of granting empowerments. These two things are not equivalent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 9:45 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...when the jñānasattvas are dismissed...


Sādhaka said:
Perhaps it is not compulsory, that the Jñānasattvas always have to be dismissed

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it’s compulsory, and I already explained why. But to restate it, destroying a phyisical mandala prior to dismissing the jnanasattva is no different than destroying a consecrated statue of the Nuddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 7:19 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Sādhaka said:
The implication of Garchen Rinpoche's recorded Empowerments being valid, would be that his Samadhi is higher level than most other Lamas; or, alternatively, that some other Lamas have the same level of Samadhi, yet choose to not allow recorded Empowerments to be considered valid for their own good reasons.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with the idea of recorded empowerments is that every physical mandala created by a vajramaster to give an empowerment is dissolved at the end of the rite, when the jñānasattvas are dismissed. One must do this before dismantling the mandala, whether it is a simple one heap rice mandala, or a complicated Kalacakra empowerment. If one does not, it is akin to killing a buddha.

Simply put, the mandala used to give the empowerment no longer exists in a recording of an empowerment. Therefore, there can be no empowerment from a recording. It simply isn't possible.

Even in a meaning empowerment, where there is no need to dismiss the jñānasattva, since rite is not happening live, no jñānasattva is summoned by the master since he is not present, thus no samadhi generated, to conduct the descent of the jñānasattva into the student wishing to receive the empowerment.

It really has nothing to do with "levels of samadhi," but rather the ritual mechanics of giving empowerments. And frankly, these issues are not trivial.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 6:57 AM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:
Domingo said:
Malcolm, if you write "ChNN authorized Khenpo Yeshe Wangpo to transmit the Longsal teachings, to the extent of the former giving the latter a hat", does that mean that this Khenpo was only authorized to transmit Longsal to ChNN's tulku, but not to other people?

Malcolm wrote:
The post you mention is 7 years old. There would be no reason for this person to give these transmission while ChNN was alive. That changed in 2018.

As far as your other question goes, I have no answer for it.

Domingo said:
I'm sorry, probably my english is too poor, but I'm just not sure what "to the extent of the former giving the latter a hat" means. Does that mean, this Khenpo is only authorized to transmit Longsal to the tulku of ChNN?

Malcolm wrote:
I have no idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 6:46 AM
Title: Re: Khenpo Drimed Dawa
Content:
lelopa said:
I've read (parts of) his highly hotpotched "Innate Happiness" and I don't want to have anything to do with this guy!
Very strange practices and mingling bonpo-sadhanas with buddhist practices in a very strange style, etc., etc..

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty strange indeed. Another western "mind" treasure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?
Content:
Kai lord said:
Yeah He wasn't. Dangma Lhundrup should be one of the earliest tertons if not the first.

Seeker12 said:
To be clear, there are tertons in the sense of those that reveal treasures specifically from Guru Rinpoche, Yeshe Tsogyal, Vimalamitra, etc, which is basically specifically a Nyingma thing.

Malcolm wrote:
It is also a Bonpo thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 5:58 AM
Title: Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?
Content:
Kai lord said:
Dangma Lhundrup was the holder of Vima Nytingtik in the 10th to 11th century. But we don't know much about his life other than He got a famous disciple called Chetsun Sengge Wangchuk.

Malcolm wrote:
Only for about 15-30 years in the mid 11th, since he met Chetsun after Atisha passed away, according to the earliest text where he is mentioned, the Great Chronicle from the Vima Nyingthik.

Shenchen Luga (Bonpo), Trapa Nönshe, and Sonam Lama were definitely earlier.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Rongzompa & Dzogchen: What transmissions did he have?
Content:


Natan said:
300 years or less is that certain? Was Rongzompa not a terton? Can we say with any confidence he received Vimalamitra dharma? Hmmmmmm.
In terms of the Nyingma tradition, he received several systems that traditionally claimed Indian roots: Guhyagarbha, Vajrakīla/Vajrakilāya, Semde or "Mind Class" traditions stemming from Vairocana and Yudra Nyingpo (g.yu sgra snying po); the Kham system of Dzogchen transmitted via Vimalamitra and his chief disciples Nyangben Tingdzin Zangpo (myang ban ting 'dzin bzang po), Ma Rinchen Chok (rma rin chen mchog) and Nyak Jñānakumāra (gnyags dz+nyA na ku mA ra).

Malcolm wrote:
https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies/view/Rongzom-Chokyi-Zangpo/6194


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:
Domingo said:
Malcolm, if you write "ChNN authorized Khenpo Yeshe Wangpo to transmit the Longsal teachings, to the extent of the former giving the latter a hat", does that mean that this Khenpo was only authorized to transmit Longsal to ChNN's tulku, but not to other people?

Malcolm wrote:
The post you mention is 7 years old. There would be no reason for this person to give these transmission while ChNN was alive. That changed in 2018.

As far as your other question goes, I have no answer for it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Soma999 said:
Thanks Seeker. This is interesting.

Many people can access, not totally, but partially, or some glimpse, to the sambogakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, if they are 8th stage bodhisayttvas on up. Otherwise, it is impossible because the afflictive obscuration prevents it.

Toenail said:
If one receives teachings in a dream from the Buddhas or deities... How is it classified? If it is not a provocation but genuine. Would that be 'perceiving the sambhogakaya'?

Malcolm wrote:
No. The sambhogakāya is not something any being who has afflictive obscurations can perceive at all, whether awake or in a dream. If one has afflictive obscurations, one can perceive only a nirmāṇakāya. This is not something open to interpretation or one's feelings. This is just how these things are defined.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 29th, 2022 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Soma999 said:
Thanks Seeker. This is interesting.

Many people can access, not totally, but partially, or some glimpse, to the sambogakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, if they are 8th stage bodhisayttvas on up. Otherwise, it is impossible because the afflictive obscuration prevents it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 28th, 2022 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:


Seeker12 said:
"Disciples may attain the result - namely, accomplishment - on the basis of any one of these empowerments.

Malcolm wrote:
With respect to receiving empowerment from a yidam, one must have already received that empowerment. Because without an empowerment, one doe not have a yidam to speak of. But if one receives empowerment from a yidam after one has received a yidam from one's guru,  after that, it is proper and correct. But running around claiming that one has received an empowerment from Tara without every having received her empowerment from a human master is just a source of laughter.

Claiming to have a prophetic declaration from the ḍākinīs is also quite unlikely to be believed. And the rig pa'i rsal dbang is not something one gives oneself, and this is explicitly stated in the Dzogchen tantras and commentaries.


Seeker12 said:
I don't expect I will respond again here.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no empowerment if there is no guru. And ordinary human beings cannot perceive the sambhogakāya at all. Actually, neither can bodhisattvas on the stages until the eighth bhumi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 28th, 2022 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:
heart said:
I have many friends who's master died and then had a reincarnation recognised but it haven't really matter for them so much. Tulkus are mainly important for Tibetan monasteries not for individuals. I personally doubt they will save Western organisations like Rigpa or DC. But who knows.

/magnus

Shaiksha said:
But, isn't this case unique? Currently, there is no one who is authorized to transmit the Longsal cycle discovered by CNNR? Or, at least, no one who are authorized and are teaching/passing down the cycle.

Malcolm wrote:
The same highly placed source confirmed that ChNN authorized Khenpo Yeshe Wangpo to transmit the Longsal teachings, to the extent of the former giving the latter a hat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 28th, 2022 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Ultimate emptiness of matter
Content:
Aemilius said:
There is a real objective length, that is  based on the size of atoms, quarks (or strings).

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe, it’s not completely settled, and this may just represent a current limit to empirical analysis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 28th, 2022 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:
Tata1 said:
Chnn was not a fan of tulku system

Malcolm wrote:
I heard from a reliable source a reincarnation of ChNN has been identified. I have no other details than this, but source is highly placed within the DC.



heart said:
I have many friends who's master died and then had a reincarnation recognised but it haven't really matter for them so much. Tulkus are mainly important for Tibetan monasteries not for individuals. I personally doubt they will save Western organisations like Rigpa or DC. But who knows.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
100% agree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 28th, 2022 at 9:52 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Meaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.

Astus said:
'With regard to receiving the empowerment Lord Jigten Sumgon had said that when you understand the meaning of the empowerment, when the meaning of the empowerment arises in your mind stream, that is when you have received the empowerment. So receiving the empowerment is not only receiving the vase on your crown. The vase is also just a symbol. But what's important is to understand the meaning and to gain some experience. So this is how what actually receives the empowerment.'
(Drupon Rinchen Dorje Rinpoche, 11.07.2020, https://youtu.be/4FtkBvOxuGc?t=1240 -21:19)

Seeker12 said:
There are also stories about some master for example having a dream about Khyentse Wangpo or Vimalamitra or whatever who might put a text on their head and confer the transmission of all termas, or of the full Kangyur, or things like this.

Malcolm wrote:
You can be certain they all first received everything in the normal conventional way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 28th, 2022 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:
Tata1 said:
Chnn was not a fan of tulku system

Malcolm wrote:
I heard from a reliable source a reincarnation of ChNN has been identified. I have no other details than this, but source is highly placed within the DC.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: Ultimate emptiness of matter
Content:


Aemilius said:
The existence of Planck's length takes away some of the arguments of Madhyamaka. The long and short -argument is  not absolutely valid anymore, as there is a limit at the short end of the scale. The short and long can now be defined on the basis of Planck's length, which takes away the absolute relativity of "long and short".


Malcolm wrote:
https://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/archive/archive_2013/today13-11-01_NutshellReadMore.html

Aemilius said:
So why is the Planck length thought to be the smallest possible length? The simple summary of Mead's answer is that it is impossible, using the known laws of quantum mechanics and the known behavior of gravity, to determine a position to a precision smaller than the Planck length. Pay attention to that repeated word "known." If it turns out that at very small lengths, some other version of quantum mechanics manifests itself or the law of gravity differs from our current theory, the argument falls apart. Since our understanding of subatomic gravity is incomplete, we know that the statement that the Planck length is the smallest possible length is on shaky ground. Still, until a better theory of quantum gravity is devised, the Planck length is the best estimate we have for a minimum length.

Malcolm wrote:
So, Madhyamaka arguments remain valid. Length is relative. Further, even were there an absolute smallest length, long would exist relative to,it, and vice versa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 12:35 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Meaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.

Astus said:
'With regard to receiving the empowerment Lord Jigten Sumgon had said that when you understand the meaning of the empowerment, when the meaning of the empowerment arises in your mind stream, that is when you have received the empowerment. So receiving the empowerment is not only receiving the vase on your crown. The vase is also just a symbol. But what's important is to understand the meaning and to gain some experience. So this is how what actually receives the empowerment.'
(Drupon Rinchen Dorje Rinpoche, 11.07.2020, https://youtu.be/4FtkBvOxuGc?t=1240 -21:19)

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not really what we are talking about here. You ought to stay in your lane. Vajrayana is not your speciality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 8:42 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:



oldbob said:
Dzogchen is unconstructed - not dependent on anything.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s true of the basis; but that is not true of the person who is trying to realize the meaning of the basis, a.k.a,the primordial state.

A person needs a path, and they need to understand that path concretely. Your error is in engaging in inflated, grandiose bullshit about Dzogchen, where JD asked a simple question about a mental factor and it’s role in meditation. Maybe it’s better you and Jules quit while you are behind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 7:41 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Devotion

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not what dad pa, śraddhā, means here. Here, dad pa means “a clear mind with respect to the object.”

It helps to know what technical terms mean in their context, even if one is an aspiring Dzogchen practitioner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
I posted this thread based on Dzogchen instructions and experiences...

Malcolm wrote:
Bob's afraid that if anyone thought they might have to learn anything new, they'd be frightened away from Dzogchen teachings.

Might as well throw away Longchenpa, whom ChNN described as the ultimate Tibetan authority in Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:


oldbob said:
There are several other 5 capacities - but this is the one from ChNN on how we train in Dzogchen which includes and is based on the 5 capacities in Sutra.

Malcolm wrote:
In other words, you know they are found in sutra (and also tantra) but you didn't recall (since I am certain you've learned this somewhere) that these five are part of what are termed "the thirty-seven adjuncts of awakening."

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Thirty-seven_factors_of_enlightenment

These things are useful to know, since the Dzogchen tantras describe the path in these general terms as well, though they typically use a more abbreviated form of path description.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 27th, 2022 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
oldbob said:
ChNN did not.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN wanted to set up a Shedra for the five sciences. Of course, one can study Dzogchen without learning Abhidharma, etc., but one will certainly understand its textual systems better by studying their foundation, which include Abhidharma, and so on, since Dzogchen tantras spend a great deal of time analyzing and discussing various tenet systems for their faults and qualities. So in order to improve people's knowledge so they could understand Dzogchen teachings better, he wanted a place where they could learn these things. He and I discussed this several times.

Those who claim that their knowledge and understanding of Dzogchen won't be improved by studying lower yānas don't really understand Dzogchen very well.

For example, he always began every introductory teaching with the "five capacities." Pop quiz: where do the five capacities come from?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 26th, 2022 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:



heart said:
I am completely fine with online live, but it has to be live. No recordings. But it seems Garchen Rinpoche don't agree strangely enough.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed. The only reason I replied is that you left out the "online" part.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 26th, 2022 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche's empowerments
Content:


heart said:
I don't want to do this discussion again but all my lamas think that if it isn't live it isn't.

Malcolm wrote:
Not exactly. Khenchen Namdrol went through a list of empowerments in a major empowerment, and specified which could be given online, and which would not. In the end, the lower vase initiation cannot be given on line, since it uses substances. The three higher initiations, he reasoned, could be given online, because even the substances they use are symbolic.

Meaning empowerments don't use any substances, so they can definitely be given on line.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 26th, 2022 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: World Cup 2022
Content:
Giovanni said:
Can I make a suggestion?
Next time you are watching a football match and a striker is running towards goal, switch your attention away from her/him and focus on the defence players particularly the goalkeeper. Watch their skill in impeding the striker without incurring a penalty and the saves made by the goalie.
It’s like switching from the breath in the nasal passages to the abdomen!  It’s involves the entire body/ team.

DNS said:
NBA basketball game

Malcolm wrote:
Completely different animal than European football.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 24th, 2022 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: World Cup 2022
Content:


Norwegian said:
Trying to give an analysis of the perceived quality of football through probability theory is definitely peak STEM behavior. Do you use probability theory to determine how good a movie is also? What about music? Or literature? Or do you draw the line somewhere?

As for the suggestions shared here on how football can be changed "for the better", they're like someone who talks about how they really enjoys sushi, except sushi could be so much better if only you replaced the seafood with burger meat and buns, and the rice with cheese and onions.



Malcolm wrote:
This is some good Dharmawheel...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 24th, 2022 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I’ve seen/experienced a few different presentations it seems like where there are pointing out via Shamatha prior to anything that looks like DI ala ChNN. For instance in A Tri the only thing that resembles DI to me comes later. Maybe I’m missing some subtle thing about types of transmission.

Malcolm wrote:
One uses experiences as a basis for DI. The experience they are using here is gnas pa, the calm state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 24th, 2022 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
he descrined it in chapter 5, that one has to use an indirect method. He states, either though using a mantra or regular śamatha, one must enter the first dhyāna, aka perfect śamatha, with its five characteristics: vitarka, vicara, pṛti, sukha, and ekagraha (initial attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease, and one pointedness) and do this in the context of having intellectually cultivated Dzogchen view as described in chapter 5. Obviously, one defect is a lot of people mistake the access mental factor, vitarka (rtog pa) for full śamatha.

Kai lord said:
Why is calm abiding insufficient? And  Wouldn't the bliss one experience in first jhana interfere with the cultivation of dzogchen view?

Malcolm wrote:
The goal here, as Rongzom says, is absolute mindfulness (dran pa) encompassed by total awareness (shes bzhin).

No, vitarka and vicara are still present, therefor, one can switch objects and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Nagarjuna's Argument Against Motion
Content:


Subcontrary said:
Where does motion begin?

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn't begin, since one can only ascertain [present] motion in relation to something has either moved or not moved. Nāgārjuna is refuting agents and actions in this section, the idea that there are moving movers, and so forth. It's a constant theme in the MMK.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Does this method correspond to the sem de and Mahamudra presentations that develop shamatha to a certain point prior to pointing out/introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
This is one of the sems sde methods, but it occurs after receiving Dzogchen transmission. There are no sems sde methods to develop anything prior to Dzogchen transmission. There is no such thing as "sūtra Dzogchen."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Looking for Bell & Dorje
Content:
Kjigme said:
Where can I find a good quality Bell and Dorje? I don't want to pay anything over 120 US. There are some many options online, but how do I know their qualities are good?!
I've heard that the best bells come from Dehradun, India.
Does anyone know a trust worthy site?


Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
Then you won't find a vajra and bell worth owning.

Kjigme said:
Is it the price? What's a good price range than?

Malcolm wrote:
https://tibetanspirit.com/products/bell-vajra-dehradun-highest-quality-9?variant=42149214880001&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&utm_campaign=gs-2018-11-09&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=CjwKCAiApvebBhAvEiwAe7mHSH3O2CrU0cl1Y6Hhb1f3K4a17p6ptN8odNRB53qVp_rcRqYerSSpCxoCRVgQAvD_BwE


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 at 11:32 AM
Title: Re: Looking for Bell & Dorje
Content:
Kjigme said:
Where can I find a good quality Bell and Dorje? I don't want to pay anything over 120 US. There are some many options online, but how do I know their qualities are good?!
I've heard that the best bells come from Dehradun, India.
Does anyone know a trust worthy site?


Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
Then you won't find a vajra and bell worth owning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 at 7:33 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Jules 09 said:
To put it another way: Whatever one thinks about Rigpa, is not Rigpa.

Johnny Dangerous said:
That goes without saying, but that is not the issue and never was. If it were we could all just read about Dzogchen, and would never need introduction, ancillary practice, etc.

Instead we have to receive introduction/pointing out and preferably also instructions on clarification and dispelling doubt, etc. from a teacher.

The point is that consigning oneself to ignorance of ones own cognitions is actually, according to some presentations, basically a form of Marigpa.
we have to receive introduction/pointing out and preferably also instructions on clarification and dispelling doubt, etc. from a teacher.

Jules 09 said:
- Yes indeed. That is probably the best way to find answers to your questions.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and you are not a teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
This is actually not correct, as far as I know. I can supply quotes later, but for instance Tasha Nyamgel cites the ability to recognize subtle cognition as vital to recognition of Rigpa. That is, to truly recognize and stabilize Rigpa, one cannot be ignorant of rtog pa, in fact one has to have precise ability to notice the stream of continuous rtog pa moments and ignoring it or blocking them gets one stuck at an earlier part of the process related to only having awareness of “coarse cognition.” In fact, ones ability to not even notice them keeps practice at the level of shamatha, I think.

Malcolm wrote:
Better to use the term vitarka here. Vitarka is the operative mental factor in access concentration. Rongzom states in the chapter 6 of  his Intro to Mahāyāna Systems that if one cannot directly discover and be in knowledge of Dzogchen as he descrined it in chapter 5, that one has to use an indirect method. He states, either though using a mantra or regular śamatha, one must enter the first dhyāna, aka perfect śamatha, with its five characteristics: vitarka, vicara, pṛti, sukha, and ekagraha (initial attention, sustained attention, physical ease, mental ease, and one pointedness) and do this in the context of having intellectually cultivated Dzogchen view as described in chapter 5. Obviously, one defect is a lot of people mistake the access mental factor, vitarka (rtog pa) for full śamatha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Jules 09 said:
- Which means that, during Rigpa, Rtog pa is absent.


Malcolm wrote:
Which mean you have mistaken kalpana (rtog pa), concepts, which we are not talking about here; for vitarka (rtog pa), initial attention, which is what we are talking about here, because you are clearly unfamiliar with the presentation of mind and its mental factors (citta and caittas) and how terms like vitarka and tarka are translated into Tibetan (rtog pa).

The only time rtog pa/vitarka is absent in a sentient being who belongs to the desire realm is when their minds are in equipoise in second dhyāna on up. But since all eight dhyānas are actually conceptually-driven with an object of concentration, dhyāna and rig pa are not alike. Since there is no object in trekcho, it doesn't matter that in this state there exist neutral mental factors such as the mahābhūmikas—samadhi, cetana, and so on—as well as vitarka (rtog pa), vicara, and so on, or positive mental factors, like faith, etc., or even afflicted and negative mental factors. Where there is citta, a mind, there are caittas, mental factors.

In trekcho one is just resting in the direct perception of the sense organs with no particular object to focus upon, that is why any concepts (rtog pa, kalpana) that arise in rig pa automatically vanish without needing to apply an antidote, because sense cognitions are nonconceptual by nature, and mind (manas) isn't chasing any mental factors, concepts, or even uncompounded phenomena as its object in the dharmāyatana. But to claim concepts can never arise while in rig pa's equipoise, this is a very mistaken idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 23rd, 2022 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Rtog pa - subtle cognition?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Been reading a few things and this is becoming relevant practice wise. Is this a good definition of rtog pa or am I getting confused?

If you have to be specific, what is the real difference between “coarse” and “subtle” cognition , is it just how it is experienced by the meditator?

This also connects with some of the discussions we have on thought vs. Rigpa, as in some presentations it seems that working with subtle cognition is absolutely vital.

Malcolm wrote:
You are discussing vitarka (rtog) and vicara (dpyod). These are two mental factors that accompany all desire realm minds. Vitarka, for example, is used to enter dhyāna; vicara sustains it. Some people translate as coarse and subtle, but really it refers to mental factor that allows us to switch objects and then one to sustain our attention on an object.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 22nd, 2022 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa
Content:
Sādhaka said:
I mean yeah I'm aware that there are and were many Sakyapa Dzogchen practitioners....

Although:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakya_Monastery

Sakya Monastery houses a huge library of as many as 84,000 books on traditional stacks 60 metres long and 10 metres high. Most of them are Buddhist scriptures, although they also include works of literature, history, philosophy, astronomy, mathematics, agriculture and art. One scripture weighs more than 500 kg, the heaviest in the world. The collection also includes many volumes of palm-leaf manuscripts, which are well-preserved due to the region's arid climate. In 2003, the library was examined by the Tibetan Academy of Social Sciences. The monastery started to digitize the library in 2011. As of 2022, all books have been indexed, and more than 20% have been fully digitized. Monks now maintain a digital library for all scanned books and documents.

...if any of the remaining eleven commentaries, that ManiThePainter referred to, were to be found there, they probably would have turned up by now...?

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily. The volumes have been indexed, not the contents.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 22nd, 2022 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa
Content:




Sādhaka said:
Not sure why that^ didn't show up in my previous post; but to try again....

Anyhow, it turns out that that^ is something from 2011 afterall, and is seeming to be made into something that it's not on some social media websites. Therefore probably no Dzogchen Tantra commentaries to be found there.

Malcolm wrote:
At Sakya? There most certainly will be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 22nd, 2022 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
That luminosity is a unique, individual continuum. It’s not transpersonal.

muni said:
That is dharmata.
There is the dharmadatu as the quote and there is dharmata. As I made it not clear,  it is written in the post by Jules., a teaching by Namkai Norbu Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
A teaching that apparently neither you nor Jules understand correctly.

You forget, Namkhai Norbu is my teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 22nd, 2022 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Did Namkhai Norbu authorize Tantric Sorcery Teachers?
Content:


dingirfecho said:
But you got the written certification from Changchub Dorje, didn't you?
And the proof of realization?
That's great.
Can I see it?

Malcolm wrote:
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was asked in the mid-70's to teach the Italian members of a Karma Kagyu center by the 16th Karmapa after their teacher died. Before that, he was teaching on his own. He never claimed to be authorized by anyone to do anything. When the Karmapa asked him, he told the Karmapa, fine, but he was only interested in teaching them Dzogchen. The rest is history.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 22nd, 2022 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Did Namkhai Norbu authorize Tantric Sorcery Teachers?
Content:
dingirfecho said:
Just to clarify: LS didn't do the retreats under another Lama's direction. He asked NN what he should do.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this then leads to the next question. What retreat? How long? What fire puja text, etc.? When did Lama Sherab meet ChNN? Etc., etc.

Generally speaking, announcements by people who are previously unknown like this are suspicious, that's why people are suspicious. They are suspicious because you two are seeking to gather students through a website that possesses a sensationalist name, using the name of a deceased, famous master and claiming to be authorized lineage holders of said master; and advertising that you are all about training people to become siddhas. Are you both siddhas? Really? How can those who are not siddhas train siddhas?

So you should not be at all surprised when people begin to demand proof of endorsement, and even when something is provided, demand more proof, and still continue to be doubtful, even when you consider proof is provided.

It's better not to make such claims, and merely say, this person studied with x gurus, and did these retreats, studied here, there, received this and that, etc., etc. That is my constructive advice to you as a vajra sibling.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 22nd, 2022 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Did Namkhai Norbu authorize Tantric Sorcery Teachers?
Content:
dingirfecho said:
Hello, Malcom, Jason and everyone here at Dharma Wheel.

This is Lama Fede. It’s been ages since I’ve been on this forum. Last time I was here, I was in the Sakya. How things have changed for us. I’m writing this since Lama Sherab is in mourning for Lho Ontul Rimpoche, another of his teachers and a close friend of Namkhai Norbu.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Fede:


Ok. The issue here is a question of language. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu did not authorize your friend to teach. Authorizing your friend to "teach" would mean being part of SMS. The only person, apart from his children, that ChNN explicitly authorized to give empowerment, and so on, is the Chinese Khenpo, Yeshe Wangpo. So, there is no evidence for your friend's claim. Agreeing that he was qualified to teach and give empowerments outside Dzogchen community is not "blessed."

All ChNN said was that your friend had satisfied the traditional requirements of doing the approach and accomplishment of a major Yidam and the fire puja. They don't do fire pujas after the three roots in the DC. It's not part of the three roots requirements in SMS.

This might be seen as an endorsement by some. But its clear from this email that ChNN is just making an observation. There are, at this point, some thousands of westerners with the same qualifications, of whom ChNN would make the same observation.

It's clear that this your friend cannot teach in the DC, because he did not participate in the SMS teacher training. That means he was not authorized at all. I am also not authorized at all by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu to teach. I never sought to be an SMS teacher for a number of reasons.

Is your friend qualified to teach? That's between his students and he. I don't have an opinion about that one way or another.

Using dead gurus as endorsements on websites can be problematical, as this thread shows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 22nd, 2022 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That luminosity is a unique, individual continuum. It’s not transpersonal.

Pietrepa said:
If I recall correctly sometimes you have been mentioning that the partless moments of consciousness are "immune" to madhyamaka analysis.

So is that luminosity understood as an individual continuum also merely dependently designated upon its parts i.e. the successive moments?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course. Everything is conventional, even the three kāyas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 21st, 2022 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Self-Ordained Monks (split)
Content:



Seeker12 said:
That is sort of the external, exoteric understanding, but there is also an inner, esoteric understanding which can be understood by those who have appropriate merit, basically speaking. FWIW.

Malcolm wrote:
Special pleading is a fallacy.

"Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle, without justifying the special exception."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 21st, 2022 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
muni said:
Emptiness is the base: it is like space, in which all things can manifest and exist. All sentient beings and their sensory fields exist in and by that space.
Thank you all for yours conversation. Then there is no trace of division.
Since no thing/being is out of emptiness, the base. All inclusive all embracing, by the grace of emptiness all is possible.

"The view is like the bright sky:
Free from all that is high or low, divided or partial,
Neither wide nor narrow, it is beyond attempts to verbalize it—
Apply the tool of insightful understanding straight away." Longchenpa.

"Dodurupchen says that all phenomena/beings are quite definitely such that they arise as rigpa energy or rigpa display.  From the point of view of the new schools of tantra (sarma), everything that appears arises as the display of great bliss, and the display of emptiness. In the terminology of Dzogchen whatever manifests arises as the display of rigpa, and that is certain. So the agent responsible for all of this as well as the space and ground for it all, is the single state of Clear Light. Everything, in fact , is the display or array of Clear Light." Dalai Lama

As gratitude for clarification of Dharmata and Dharmadhatu*!

Malcolm wrote:
That luminosity is a unique, individual continuum. It’s not transpersonal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 20th, 2022 at 11:44 AM
Title: Lho Ontul Rinpoche has passed
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just a quick note. Many of us took teachings from Lho Ontul Rinpoche.he passed today at 1am Indian time in Dhera Dun.  I first met him in 1998. He was a really good person. A real Dzogchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 20th, 2022 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: This odd quote by Master Hsuan Hua
Content:
ShantiM said:
If anyone might have an explanation for this?

Malcolm wrote:
Mistaken opinion. It's as simple as that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 20th, 2022 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Rendering 'Atman' as 'Self' is misleading
Content:


Injrabodi said:
Anyways I do agree with you that "self" is a terrible translation for atman.

Malcolm wrote:
Technically, it's root meaning is closest to pneuma, i.e. spirit:

atman (n.)
in Hindu philosophy, the self or soul, 1785, from Sanskrit atma "essence, breath, soul," from PIE *etmen "breath" (a root found in Sanskrit and Germanic; source also of Old English æðm, Dutch adem, Old High German atum "breath," Old English eþian, Dutch ademen "to breathe").

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=atman

However, the term has the connotation in Sanskrit texts of essence, identity, and so. In Buddhist texts, it pejoratively refers to the mistaken sense of an integral identity that results from I-making (ahamkāra).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 20th, 2022 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: Arrow (dadar) twirled clockwise or counterclockwise?
Content:
Dharmaswede said:
(Due to long covid I forget the most basic things, and Googling has oddly not been successful).

I assume clockwise... but want to be sure.

Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
Both ways actually. Clockwise when sending messengers out to gather lifeforce, counterclockwise when gathering it in.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 20th, 2022 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: ftx
Content:
Norwegian said:
Trusting crypto is beyond stupid.

Malcolm wrote:
Perfect example of Keyne's Great Fool Theory. Non-state backed currencies are just gambling.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 19th, 2022 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Terma said:
Is this then a translation issue in regards to The Six Lamps? The second lamp is titled "The Lamp of the Flesh Heart." I could understand translation discrepancies, but surely these teachings come down in an oral lineage as well?

I am not disputing what you say in regards to longchenpa, etc., as I always understood it this way as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Tsi ta sha means “fleshy heart”, the same term is used in Nyinthig aural lineage. But it does not refer to,the heart that pumps blood. Citta is translated in these texts as “snying,” where it refers to center of the torso, not the heart that is responsible for circulation. The reason is that the heart is responsible for  it circulation of  blood is the site of the karma vayus.

Passing By said:
The 21-Nails and Gyalwa Chaktri also go on to say that the material heart concerned in this Lamp (".....sha'i tsi-ta ni...." to give the transliteration provided in my copy of those texts) is maroon colored like a cornelian pavilion with white projections. Doesn't that sound like the circulatory system's heart?

Malcolm wrote:
It's tempting to identify it as the so-called don snying, the heart muscle, but there is another explanation. The Sound Tantra states:

In the celestial mansion of the precious heart (tsi tta),
the precious gathering has eight doors.

This is explained by Vimalamitra as follows:

"The so-called citta means that since the elements gather, the body forms. Since the body gathers, the nāḍīs form. Since the nāḍīs gather, the bindus form. Since the bindus gather, lights and colors form. Since the colors gather, the vāyus form. Since the vāyus gather, pristine consciousnesses (ye shes) form. As such, the gathering point of all the nāḍīs is the citta. Since that is the basis for the arising of qualities, the pristine consciousness of vidyā is located in the precious celestial mansion. "Precious" refers to the gathering of all the nāḍīs, termed "the life of samsara and nirvana." There are four nāḍīs that are the native place of the elements, there are two nāḍīs in which two elements each are combined, adding up to six. There are two more nāḍīs that of male and female combined four elements, totaling eight. These are in the main and and intermediate directions."

And:

Pristine consciousness is located in the heart, the so-called "citta", the center of the body where all the nāḍīs gather.

The heart muscle is not in the center of the body, and Tibetans were quite aware of this. Thus, the reason why the citta is called the citta is because it is the center point of all the nāḍīs, as explained above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 19th, 2022 at 12:05 PM
Title: Re: White wolf symbolism
Content:
Kjigme said:
Thanks guys

Malcolm wrote:
FYI, an albino wolf, in the Tibetan world, would most likely be regarded as an inauspicious sign, largely as a result of albinism being regarded as inauspicious in Buddhism. For example, originally albinos could not ordain, and so on. It's not like NA culture, where albinism in buffalos is regarded as sacralizing.

jet.urgyen said:
white lions are symbol of perfect courage, and white goats of perfect perseverance; this aren't inauspicious. perhaps albino and white aren't the same thing?

Malcolm wrote:
I've never seen, in all the thousands of texts i have read in Tibetan, any reference to white wolves. Tibetan wolves have the same range of colors as other wolves, predominantly gray, with black, yellow, and whitish color. But a white wolf would be albino.

A snow lion is not a real creature, and I've never heard of a white goat of perfect perseverance, not saying the term does not exist somewhere, but I have not run across such an idea in my reading.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 19th, 2022 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.

Astus said:
I deemed it a necessary point to make, just to see what might qualify as 'sudden enlightenment' as found in Chan.

Malcolm wrote:
You'd have been better off with the Manjuśrīnamasaṃgiti, etc.:

Differentiated in a single instant,
in one instant, perfect buddhahood.

Granted, this is quite a late text, appearing in the 8th century. But it is contemporary with the Samye "debate" and more importantly, has an Indian provenance.

Astus said:
The fundamentally important Treatise on Awakening Mahayana Faith is quite explicit:

Malcolm wrote:
Chinese apocrypha.

Astus said:
And the Surangama Sutra states:

Malcolm wrote:
Chinese apocrypha.

Astus said:
( https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225469.html )

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe not a Chinese apocrypha, but unclear in origin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 18th, 2022 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And the topic is, Chan-like practices in India...all this business about Chan texts is just rehash.

We have, for example, a text attributed to Vimalamitra on a nongradual approach, the The Meaning of the Sudden Entrants Nonconceptual Cultivation [cig car 'jug pa rnam par mi rtog pa'i bsgom don ], is preserved in the Tenjur. Does this really represent an Indian sutra-based simultaneous entry? Hard to say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 18th, 2022 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Passing By said:
Thank you very much!

So, to check whether I understood that correctly in terms of actual meditation, the three aspects of essence, nature, compassion  would be essence = the empty aspect of consciousness, nature = the aspect of consciousness that allows representations of the world to arise (ie the conscious aspect of consciousness. The reflective aspect of the mirror.) and compassion = the awareness aspect of consciousness that apprehends all these representations. These three are inseparable from each other...

Malcolm wrote:
The compassion is conscious aspect. The nature is the representations, otherwise, correct.

Passing By said:
Also, is it accurate to say that the five lights and five wisdoms are equivalent?

Malcolm wrote:
The five lights are the radiance of the five pristine consciousnesses.

The progression of the five kāyas, pristine consciousnesses, lights, elements, and so on, is explained pretty well in the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 18th, 2022 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Passing By said:
Right, imputed because of ignorance. But nevertheless, whether as the five lights or the five elements, they still require the consciousness of the basis to be apprehended, so in that case, why are they not considered mental factors, especially since they are appearances and not the objects themselves?


Malcolm wrote:
Because they do not arise from traces, as in the Yogacāra system. The five elements of the universe have their own causes and conditions. If we impute them to our own state, then we become dependent on them, etc.

Passing By said:
Ok, so can it be said like this?

The five lights are aspects of consciousness but appear as the five elements of relative appearances due to imputing ignorance. These relative appearances, their manner of appearance and mode of arising etc are not dependent on our own state but nevertheless, in actuality, they stem from our own five lights. Stuff happens around you independently of your own mental state but it is all still ultimately representations generated by your consciousness

Malcolm wrote:
Not generated by your consciousness, reflected in your consciousness with distortion. This is the important distinction between Dzogchen and Yogacara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 18th, 2022 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Passing By said:
Relative appearances are the play of the five lights manifesting as the five elements, this process of which stems from the cognitive potentiality of the basis, is this correct?

Malcolm wrote:
Imputed as the five elements.

Passing By said:
Right, imputed because of ignorance. But nevertheless, whether as the five lights or the five elements, they still require the consciousness of the basis to be apprehended, so in that case, why are they not considered mental factors, especially since they are appearances and not the objects themselves?


Malcolm wrote:
Because they do not arise from traces, as in the Yogacāra system. The five elements of the universe have their own causes and conditions. If we impute them to our own state, then we become dependent on them, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 18th, 2022 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Passing By said:
Relative appearances are the play of the five lights manifesting as the five elements, this process of which stems from the cognitive potentiality of the basis, is this correct?

Malcolm wrote:
Imputed as the five elements.


Passing By said:
"Emptiness needs something to be empty. There is no emptiness without there being something to be empty."

^ But why does emptiness necessarily have to be confined to an individual mindstream on the ultimate level? To use the example of space as a symbol of emptiness, how can space be confined?

Malcolm wrote:
There are sixteen or eighteen emptinesses.

That space is a symbol of emptiness because space here is uncompounded space, which is a nonexistent. So, there is also the emptiness of the uncompounded.

Emptiness is always the emptiness of something. There is no universal "emptiness of everything." This is why one only has to realize the emptiness of one thing to know the emptiness of all things. On the other hand, there is no emptiness to even speak of without something to be empty. This is why emptiness is also empty. While I don't specifically think the list below is perfectly translated, you can get the general idea.

emptiness of the outer (Tib. ཕྱི་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, chi tongpa nyi, Wyl. phyi stong pa nyid)
emptiness of the inner (Tib. ནང་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, nang tongpa nyi, Wyl. nang stong pa nyid)
emptiness of the outer and inner (Tib. ཕྱི་ནང་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, chi nang tongpa nyi, Wyl. phyi nang stong pa nyid)
great emptiness (Tib. ཆེན་པོ་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, chenpo tongpa nyi, Wyl. chen po stong pa nyid)
emptiness of the beginningless and endless (Tib. ཐོག་མ་དང་མཐའ་མ་མེད་པའི་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, tokma dang tama mepe tongpa nyi, Wyl. thog ma dang mtha' ma med pa'i stong pa nyid)
emptiness of the conditioned (Tib. འདུས་བྱས་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, dü je tongpa nyi, Wyl. 'dus byas stong pa nyid)
emptiness of the unconditioned (Tib. འདུས་མ་བྱས་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, dü mache tongpa nyi, Wyl. 'dus ma byas stong pa nyid )
emptiness of emptiness (Tib. སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, tongpa nyi tongpa nyi, Wyl. stong pa nyid stong pa nyid)
emptiness beyond extremes (Tib. མཐའ་ལས་འདས་པའི་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, tale depe tongpa nyi, Wyl. mtha' las 'das pa'i stong pa nyid)
natural emptiness (Tib. རང་བཞིན་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, rangshin tongpa nyi, Wyl. rang bzhin stong pa nyid)
emptiness of the unobserved (Tib. མཚན་ཉིད་མེད་པའི་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, tsennyi mepe tongpa nyi, Wyl. mtshan nyid med pa'i stong pa nyid)
ultimate emptiness (Tib. ངོ་བོ་ཉིད་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, ngowo nyi tongpa nyi, Wyl. ngo bo nyid stong pa nyid)
emptiness of the indispensable (Tib. དོར་བ་མེད་པའི་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, dorwa mepe tongpa nyi, Wyl. dor ba med pa'i stong pa nyid)
emptiness of the essential nature of non-entities (Tib. དངོས་པོ་མེད་པའི་ངོ་བོ་ཉིད་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, ngöpo mepe ngowo nyi tongpa nyi, Wyl. dngos po med pa'i ngo bo nyid stong pa nyid)
emptiness of all phenomena (Tib. ཆོས་ཐམས་ཅད་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, chö tamche tongpa nyi, Wyl. chos thams cad stong pa nyid)
emptiness of specific characteristics (Tib. མཚན་ཉིད་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་, tsen nyi tongpa nyi, Wyl. mtshan nyid stong pa nyid)

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sixteen_kinds_of_emptiness


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
SilverFantasy said:
I'm a Dzogchen practitioner, but have been really fascinated by the potential Chan influence on the practices, and of the origin of the belief in "Sudden Enlightenment" (compared to gradual). I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the history of this practice in India? Obviously things like the Heart Sutra point to it, and I'm familiar w/ the idea of Bodidharma bringing it into China. But were there schools that had "Chan" like practices in India, before Chan? Or was Chan really the originators of this idea?

Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
The source of the idea of sudden awakening is in the Lankāvatāra Sūtra, which was the sūtra Bodhidharma brought with him to China. There is a comment by Śrī Siṃha in one his commentaries in the Bairo Gyud Bum, where he discusses the Chinese approach to the two truths as "simultaneous entry."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Significance of blue lotus flower
Content:
Pårl said:
Hi all

I found this definition via Google Search:

"The Blue Lotus in Buddhism is the symbol of the victory of the spirit over the senses, of intelligence and wisdom, of knowledge. It is generally represented as a partially opened bud, whose center is unseen, the embodiment of the “perfection of wisdom”."

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, there is a blue poppy, called utpala in Sanskrit (which is not a lotus), held by some deities, which has a blossom, a semi open blossom, and a bud, representing the three kāyas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: a poll about fifth precept
Content:
dawn of peace said:
but in Mahayana sects, you can take refuge and five precepts separately.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not correct at all for the Tibetan tradition. When one participates in a refuge ceremony, all five disciplines are explained, along with the commitments of refuge. One receive all five disciplines, but can elect to follow, one, two, three, or all five. But it is not the case that one can go for refuge with at least adopting the discipline of refraining from taking life and the commitments of refuge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Kai lord said:
That is also compatible with the HYT teaching about a very subtle indestructible wind being present since beginningless time.

Malcolm wrote:
Consciousness and vayu are inseparable. All movements of consciousness are movements of vayu. Nama and rupa are likewise inseparable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: White wolf symbolism
Content:
Kjigme said:
Thanks guys

Malcolm wrote:
FYI, an albino wolf, in the Tibetan world, would most likely be regarded as an inauspicious sign, largely as a result of albinism being regarded as inauspicious in Buddhism. For example, originally albinos could not ordain, and so on. It's not like NA culture, where albinism in buffalos is regarded as sacralizing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Kai lord said:
The karmic winds that disturb the lights, came from karmic traces left over by sentinel beings from the previous eon?

Previously I thought the five elements including wind, etc, are a result of imputing ignorance that apprehends the five lights as objects.

Malcolm wrote:
The perception of the five lights as five elements comes about from that imputing ignorance, correct. But in the Dzogchen scheme of things, there has to be color which is not correctly ascertained as the light of one's own state in order for there to be error/delusion.

Kai lord said:
Seems like very subtle winds already present before that.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, since there is a neutral consciousness, which is an aspect of the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: How exactly do you "practice" the outer preliminaries?
Content:
tobes said:
Echoing JD's point (to some degree): turn this practice into a guru yoga.

i.e. one could repeatedly bring to mind a supplication requesting realisations of impermanence etc. These are common to many formal guru yogas, as well as Lam Rim prayers etc.

This way, the repeated contemplation becomes infused with blessings - it is the easy and swift way to accomplish the four thoughts.

Malcolm wrote:
A simpler and faster way is to apply them to your own life through your own experience, rather than base them on stock imagery found in traditional texts. If one needs help through supplication, one isn't really taking them to heart.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Kai lord said:
Without the five colours, five elements can't arise?

Malcolm wrote:
Without the five lights, the five elements cannot be experienced.

Remember, also the Dzogchen tantras use the example of the six different perceptions of a liquid substance in the six realms.

Kai lord said:
So disturbance of the five light occurs before the Coemergent ignorance?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is simultaneous with the connate ignorance. (Coemergent is not a proper English word, it's not in the dictionary).

Natan said:
So a Nirmanakaya experiences five elements?

Malcolm wrote:
In so far as a nirmāṇakāya possesses two-fold omniscience, sure. It is not as if a nirmāṇakāya is inert, like a piece of wood. When we talk about ye shes, pristine consciousness or gnosis, there are ten: the three of the basis, essence, etc., related to the dharmakāya; the five of the path, mirror-like, etc., related to the sambhogakāya; and two of the result, the two-fold omniscience, related to the nirmāṇakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: White wolf symbolism
Content:
pemachophel said:
Wolf as messenger (not necessarily white): 21 wolves help lead Gotsangpa to find the circumambulation path around Kailash.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and crows too. All black since they are messengers of the guardians.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Kai lord said:
Without the five colours, five elements can't arise?

Malcolm wrote:
Without the five lights, the five elements cannot be experienced.

Remember, also the Dzogchen tantras use the example of the six different perceptions of a liquid substance in the six realms.

Kai lord said:
So disturbance of the five light occurs before the Coemergent ignorance?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is simultaneous with the connate ignorance. (Coemergent is not a proper English word, it's not in the dictionary).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 17th, 2022 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Natan said:
Otherwise the only light that would be pristine would be a colorless one.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is colorless itself. The color is derived from it being disturbed by the elemental karma vāyus. This is all described in some detail in the commentaries and root tantras.

For example, when you stir a glass of pure water with a glass stick, one sees the water shimmer because of the distortion of light through the water. The motion does not make the water impure, but water has a different aspect because it is in motion.

Buddhahood, pg. 76-77:

The trio of the essence, nature, and compassion of the original basis becomes the three ignorances. Since the essence is made the cause delusion, it is designated “the ignorance of the same identity” and becomes so. Once the nature is made the condition of delusion, since the vāyu of the impelling karma manifests as color, it is designated "connate ignorance” and becomes so...

Of course, we all know that the impelling karma is the karma that projects one from this life to the next and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 16th, 2022 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Did Namkhai Norbu authorize Tantric Sorcery Teachers?
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
"If you're interested in receiving teachings from someone like this, the best way is probably to go slowly and carefully check him out yourself. Trying to get crowd verification via the internet or even via official bodies of the DC is unlikely to work well."

paljorgyatso said:
This is a tough situation. Here we are with a tradition that places maximum importance on the Guru and lineage, yet there is no way to verify someone's claims?

Malcolm wrote:
In the old days, before the internet, there never was any way to validate anyone's claims unless they were attached to a large institution. And further, a person's qualifications to teach are not really dependent on institutional endorsement, as we have discovered through a number of scandals in various schools since the 1970's. Even beyond this, even a good, institutionally-endorsed guru might not be a good fit.

paljorgyatso said:
Asking if anyone has witnessed this this blessing to give empowerments, or finding someone in the organization that Namkhai Norbu founded to give a thumbs up seems like the very smallest and easiest thing.

Malcolm wrote:
If you ask the DC, I guarantee you that they will tell you they have no record of this, nor any knowledge of it. Draw your own conclusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 16th, 2022 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
the way of the free said:
'The mind (sems, a catch-all term for the ālaya +), according to the unsurpassed secret cycle, is a product of the karma vāyus mingling with the potential/energy (rtsal) or radiance (mdangs) of vidyā in the heart cakra, which gives rise to the eight consciousnesses, and so forth, when the karma vāyus move through the eight nāḍīs of the heart cakra. '

Malcolm, could you explain this in greater detail? If not recommended a book or teaching that does? Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s really all there is to it. But for more detail you should consult the formation of the body chapter in the Tshig Don Mdzod, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 16th, 2022 at 10:12 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Norwegian said:
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-zelenskyy-kherson-9202c032cf3a5c22761ee71b52ff9d52

Russian missiles have landed in Poland.

KristenM said:
You have to give credit to NATO and Poland for not overreacting. The silence is deafening.

Malcolm wrote:
Time and place of their choosing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 16th, 2022 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Did Namkhai Norbu authorize Tantric Sorcery Teachers?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It does however mean, "Caveat Emptor."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 16th, 2022 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa
Content:



ManiThePainter said:
Do we have "enough" material in the existing commentaries to gain a proper understanding of most of the 17? Do you think we might recover the remaining 11 commentaries?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

It is possible, there is always new material being recovered in libraries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 16th, 2022 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Did Namkhai Norbu authorize Tantric Sorcery Teachers?
Content:
paljorgyatso said:
Malcolm, I am glad you chimed in. I was hoping you would. This is the kind of thing that there should be evidence for in terms of witnesses or
I want to give the benefit of the doubt where I can, but you were close to Rinpoche: did he often give this kind of blessing?

Malcolm wrote:
Never, as far as I know. That does not mean he is lying, however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 16th, 2022 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Did Namkhai Norbu authorize Tantric Sorcery Teachers?
Content:
heart said:
He doesn’t say that on the webpage, did he tell you that?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes he does:
Under Namkhai Norbu He completed a retreat of the three roots, and after approach and accomplishment, as well as the homa ritual, was given blessings by him to teach and give empowerments. From him Lama Sherab also had extensive training and empowerments in Anuyoga, and in the three series of Atiyoga.
And there is zero evidence for his claim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 15th, 2022 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa
Content:
reader said:
Some chapters here https://www.academia.edu/43208880/Longchenpas_Theg_mchog_mdzod_Chapter_1_The_Triple_Homeland

stoneinfocus said:
Well that's...certainly a very novel way to translate trikaya....

Also, "splendid career", "basic career"...these are some really baffling translation choices lol

Malcolm wrote:
My favorite:

Rockstar Illusion Continuum (Mayavajra Tantra)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 15th, 2022 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa
Content:
reader said:
Some chapters here https://www.academia.edu/43208880/Longchenpas_Theg_mchog_mdzod_Chapter_1_The_Triple_Homeland


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 15th, 2022 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: White wolf symbolism
Content:
Kjigme said:
Would anyone have an idea if the white wolf has any kind of significance in Tibetan culture?

Malcolm wrote:
Zero.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 15th, 2022 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: What are you watching? Any good?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Tulsa City. Hilarious.

https://deadline.com/2022/11/tulsa-king-premiere-sylvester-stallone-terence-winter-drama-origin-1235170845/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 15th, 2022 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
BTW, I just want to add, again, most these qualms will be settled by reviewing the six faulty positions about the basis and the one correct position.

The six faulty positions are:

1. The basis is naturally perfected (lhun grub)
2. The basis is undefined (ma nges pa)
3. The basis is defined (nges pa)
4. The basis is totally mutable.
5. The basis can be accepted as anything at all
6. The basis is polychromatic or diverse.

The one correct position:

7. The basis is originally pure.

The Six Dimensions Tantra States:

The basis that is naturally perfect at the beginning
is nothing other than one thing.
However, if it is confirmed with authoritative understanding
through the positions of deluded appearances,
there is an appearance of seven stages
appearing in this way because oneness was not recognized
in the mode of the appearance of a single entity.

Now then, the meaning of this is as follows:
(1) the basis is present as naturally perfect,
appearing as the essence that subsumes the diversity.
(2) It is present as unfixed,
appearing as an aspect of mental movement.
(3) It is present as fixed in its own state,
appearing without change in recollection.
(4) It is present as transformable,
appearing as an aspect of mind because of effort.
(5) It is present as any sort of entity,
whatever appears, appears as its own essence.
(6) It is present as polychromatic,
appearing in the form of each individual element of diversity.
(7) It is present as pure from the beginning,
having always appeared as immaculate.
Among all of these stages of intellect,
the essence is pure from the beginning.

Thus seven is presented as the definitive definition.

It is fair to say that each of these six faulty positions are partial, in that they indicate aspects of the basis. However to take any of the six as defining features of the basis is erroneous. For example, taking the first position, the basis is naturally perfected/spontaneously presence, or whatever term you like, leads to the holding the non-Buddhist Samkhya position because when "appearing as the essence that subsumes the diversity" it is assumed that this one thing is "a substantial one thing." This is why Vimala in many different commentaries criticizes this position, for example, in the Commentary on the String of Pearls he says:

Since the position that the basis is naturally perfected is flawed, the basis is impossible. If the cause is asserted to be naturally perfected, the basis will be ineffective. Since the basis is given the name “cause,” the expression itself is defective. In that case, if it is deemed established, is the result established in that cause or not? If it is deemed established, one will not be able to avoid the fault that the result will possess a contradiction. 

What if sometimes [the basis] is a cause in which the result is also established? Since the cause is established from the result, there is (1) the fault of an infinite regress and (2) the unavoidable fault that the cause and the result are the same. 

If it is asserted [that the cause and the result] are the same, the expression, “the cause and result of karma,” will be defective.

If it is asserted that the cause and result are different, the assertion that the cause is naturally perfected is defective.
If that cause is established in the result, one cannot reject the consequence that the result is the cause. Therefore, since the result cannot be designated as the cause, the connection of the cause and the result should be understood from investigating them—causes generate results, but causes are not generated from results.

Alternatively, if it is asserted that everything is naturally perfected from everything, since one will not be able to refute what has not been asserted, one will not be able to prove one’s own assertion. Therefore, there is no purpose in [asserting the basis is] naturally perfected.

Since proving a favorable position and disproving an unfavorable position makes a naturally perfected basis one-sided, the assertion of a naturally perfected basis is defective. Suppose that the naturally perfected basis is stated to be nondual. If the cause, result, and so on are nondual, the assertion of a naturally perfected basis is defective. Saṃsāra and Saṃsāra and nirvāṇa are also rendered false. Further, reasoning negates the absence of a result at the time of a naturally perfected cause and so on. There are more reasonings to be elaborated with respect to that, but they will not be elaborated here.

--Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra, Appendix II, pp.97-98.

All of these arguments are precisely the same arguments used by Madhyamaka authors to refute Samkhya's prakṛti.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 14th, 2022 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Link between Dzogchen and dream yoga practices
Content:
Passing By said:
I'm wondering if dream yoga is mentioned in the Seventeen Tantras

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is an extensive teaching on it in the Sound Tantra and its commentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 14th, 2022 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
stong gzugs said:
What is the relation between these two meditative experiences? What determines whether a person has one vs. the other experience? Is it that some instructions are more oriented toward the former and other instructions are more oriented to the latter? Are both necessary for enlightenment? Thanks again.

Malcolm wrote:
They are not actually different, the dhātu and vidyā. One might say that the dhātu and vidyā are the union of the two truths, which is the basis as described as described in Mahāyāna.

There are various methods which may emphasize one or the other of these two, but the complete realization of one is the complete realization of the other since they are not separate.

If we were to talk about this in common Mahāyāna terms, we would say that gnosis apprehends emptiness in such a way that the subject, gnosis, takes on the aspect of the object, ultimate emptiness free from extremes, in yogic direct perception. This apprehension however isn't an apprehension since there are no signs that can be apprehended. Thus it is free from limitations or extremes (mtha' dang bral ba) and inexpressible.

The general problem that most people have in understanding this point is that when one is asked to differentiate the mind and vidyā, they are led to believe somehow that the mind and vidyā are actually two substantially different things. But they are not. The mind (sems, a catch-all term for the ālaya +), according to the unsurpassed secret cycle, is a product of the karma vāyus mingling with the potential/energy (rtsal) or radiance (mdangs) of vidyā in the heart cakra, which gives rise to the eight consciousnesses, and so forth, when the karma vāyus move through the eight nāḍīs of the heart cakra.

This is why Dzogchen teachings are included in Secret Mantra, first and foremost, because the understanding of liberation is grounded in an understanding of the formation of the body, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 14th, 2022 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Sharp said:
I would like to try one last time to make sure I understand. Consider the statement:

Objects and subjects are not found under analysis. They are empty. This emptiness is not a transcendental object but a universal principle or condition of everything. Nevertheless, there is an awareness or intelligence that knows this. This capacity to cognize is not a transcendental subject, but a manifestation of the dynamic radiance of emptiness or original purity itself, to the extent that it is substantiated in an individual. These things can only occur together because they are dependently arisen. Therefore, this realisation as a lived experience can only take place in the context of an individual continuum. Therefore, the individual continuum, an unfabricated mindstream, is the basis, since there could be no other kind of basis in which realisation or non-realisation could occur.

Conventionally speaking, is this fairly accurate as a basic summary?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. Thus, the point of Longchenpa critiquing some sems sde adherents, who fall into the extreme of asserting everything is nothing other than one’s mind.

While nothing is established in bodhicitta, emptiness, there is a distinction between appearances and apparent objects in dualistic vision (play), which appear in one’s mind (rtsal), like a mirror. The apparent objects do not exist in rtsal, they externally exist by way of eight examples of illusion. Thus is why Dzogchen is not the same as Yogacara. Appearances are not mental factors.

Passing By said:
Appearances appear in one's mind like a mirror.....but are not mental factors (ie, not part of the mind)? I don't understand this.

Also is it explained anywhere why emptiness can be substantiated in an individual when emptiness is signless? Or is this meant on the relative level and not ultimately?

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen teachings, relative appearances are not mental factors like in Yogacāra. Longchenpa explain this point in depth in his commmentary on the Treasury the Dharmadhātu and elsewhere.

Emptiness needs something to be empty. There is no emptiness without there being something to be empty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 14th, 2022 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Natan said:
If the colors which are so called pure appearances and in fact colored to due karma, then they are colored due to bias not some bleaching agent like an imagined pure vayu.

Malcolm wrote:
They are colored due to the movement of karmavāyus in one's body, not due to some bias; they are called "appearances of pristine consciousness" because they do not arise from traces karma, like the outer appearances of mountains, and so on.

This is why there are so many instructions written in Dzogchen literature about the importance of allowing the vāyus to become still. When we are exhausting the five elements, what we are actually exhausting is the karma vāyus. The doctrine of elements in Dzogchen is very complicated, much more complicated than in Mahāmudra and other teachings.

Kai lord said:
So appearances of external objects originated from karmic traces while apparent objects are results of wind movements?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Not at all. Apparent objects are the results of their own causes and conditions, by virtue of the eight examples of illusion.

The appearance of apparent objects is a result of traces: for example, the liquid substance in the six realms, an example that we find in the Dzogchen tantras.

The appearance of the five lights, which is an internal appearance with no corresponding outer object, has colors because of the karma vayus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 14th, 2022 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Killing an animal doesn't break the first precept?
Content:
akuppa said:
I see the logic. But it is interesting that it is not understood that way in other traditions, Mahayana or Theravada, afaik.

Malcolm wrote:
It's how it is understood in the Tibetan tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 14th, 2022 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Natan said:
If the colors which are so called pure appearances and in fact colored to due karma, then they are colored due to bias not some bleaching agent like an imagined pure vayu.

Malcolm wrote:
They are colored due to the movement of karmavāyus in one's body, not due to some bias; they are called "appearances of pristine consciousness" because they do not arise from traces karma, like the outer appearances of mountains, and so on.

This is why there are so many instructions written in Dzogchen literature about the importance of allowing the vāyus to become still. When we are exhausting the five elements, what we are actually exhausting is the karma vāyus. The doctrine of elements in Dzogchen is very complicated, much more complicated than in Mahāmudra and other teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 14th, 2022 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Killing an animal doesn't break the first precept?
Content:


akuppa said:
Interesting, perhaps you could point me towards where I might more discussion of this? Or is it soley based in the Vinaya? In the discussion of the precepts and unwholesome actions that I've seen only killing a living being is mentioned, it doesn't make the distiction between animal and human life found in the Vinaya.

e.g pg. 218 of the Lam Rim Chenmo trans. Guy Newland etc
Peter Harvey Buddhist Ethics pg. 69
Ornament of Abhidharma trans. Coghlan pg. 622


Malcolm wrote:
Taking the life a human being is a defeat for a monastic. Taking the life of an animal, like drinking alcohol, damaging plant life and so on, is a minor transgression which involve only confession, and no censure.

But the four root disciplines are shared among all buddhists. It is unreasonable to think that the discipline of not taking life is more stringent for lay people than monastics, it certainly isn't when it comes to sexual misconduct. The reason the discipline of refraining from being intoxicated/drinking alcohol is included is that the discipline of refraining from sexual misconduct depends on the discipline of refraining intoxicated/drinking alcohol. Without accepting latter, one cannot follow the former. In the Mūlasarvāstivāda tradition we have a choice of following, one, two, three, or all five disciplines, but not four.

Moreover, in the Kośabhaṣyam, the only example where the implications of taking life is drawn, the discussion solely applies to taking the life of humans beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 14th, 2022 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Sharp said:
I would like to try one last time to make sure I understand. Consider the statement:

Objects and subjects are not found under analysis. They are empty. This emptiness is not a transcendental object but a universal principle or condition of everything. Nevertheless, there is an awareness or intelligence that knows this. This capacity to cognize is not a transcendental subject, but a manifestation of the dynamic radiance of emptiness or original purity itself, to the extent that it is substantiated in an individual. These things can only occur together because they are dependently arisen. Therefore, this realisation as a lived experience can only take place in the context of an individual continuum. Therefore, the individual continuum, an unfabricated mindstream, is the basis, since there could be no other kind of basis in which realisation or non-realisation could occur.

Conventionally speaking, is this fairly accurate as a basic summary?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. Thus, the point of Longchenpa critiquing some sems sde adherents, who fall into the extreme of asserting everything is nothing other than one’s mind.

While nothing is established in bodhicitta, emptiness, there is a distinction between appearances and apparent objects in dualistic vision (play), which appear in one’s mind (rtsal), like a mirror. The apparent objects do not exist in rtsal, they externally exist by way of eight examples of illusion. Thus is why Dzogchen is not the same as Yogacara. Appearances are not mental factors.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Killing an animal doesn't break the first precept?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
He is correct.

akuppa said:
Maybe I'm confusing the lay precepts for the monastic ones. For a lay person taking the five precepts, killing an animal surely breaks the precept?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Killing an animal is equivalent with damaging plant life. The prohibition is really aimed at avoiding killing humans. Of course, the commitment of refuge in the Dharma is ahimsa. But that is not a vow, per se.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 11:18 AM
Title: Re: How exactly do you "practice" the outer preliminaries?
Content:
Boomerang said:
I understand how to practice a prostration. You clasp your hands, kneel, etc. But what does it mean to "practice" the outer preliminaries? Reading a text about the 4 thoughts like Words of My Perfect Teacher 100,000 times?

Malcolm wrote:
You reflect on them repeatedly until they become second nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 9:51 AM
Title: Re: Killing an animal doesn't break the first precept?
Content:
akuppa said:
Hi all,

I've been listening to a series of lectures on the abhidharmakosha found on YouTube, Foundations In Abhidharma by Khenpo David Karma Choephel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z26fjrZpcNE&t=2149s

He mentions in one episode that killing an animal isn't strong enough to break the first precept, at least as understood in his Karma Kagyu tradition. I think he mentions that certain forms of lying also don't break the precept.

Anyhow, I've never heard this before, does anyone here have any more information? Is this the case in other Mahayana traditions?

Malcolm wrote:
He is correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 8:30 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa is conditioned?
Content:
tingdzin said:
It was inevitable that once Dzogchen and "rigpa" became public property, they would be treated as commodities and used to advances hucksters' agendas.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s been that way for centuries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Thomas Merton
Content:
laic said:
I have a few others on Dogen in my Library, including the quite new "Treasury of the True Dharma Eye". I find his writings, including his poetry, helpful in my own attempts to understand this rather strange world we live in.

Malcolm wrote:
Dogen was not troubled by Mahāyāna in the slightest. He was a committed Mahāyāni his entirely life. There is an excellent biography of Dogen published in Shambhala's lives of the Master Series written by Steve Heine. I recommend it. It is fascinating.

laic said:
I will try finding the passage you refer to another day.

Malcolm wrote:
It's in the Shambhala Edition, which you mention above is in your possession. It's short, three pages.

laic said:
Malcolm, as I have explained to Johnny D, I did not claim that Dogen was troubled by Mahayana doctrine as such, I was referencing the specific Mahayana teaching of Original Enlightenment.

Maybe you could go back and read what I actually posted in context.

Sorry mate, but I really am tired if all this.

All the best.

Malcolm wrote:
This is what you said before you replied to JD, and is what I replied to:

Dogen was troubled by the Mahayana doctrine, and wondered what was the point of practice, why the masters of old poured over the sutras and practiced so assiduously. He had to find his own answer, as maybe we all need to do. Dogen eventually found his own path, time and place. We must find ours. They are, paradoxically, the same yet different.

In this post, there was no such qualification. That's what I was responding to. I agree that Dogen took issue with the Tendai doctrine of original awakening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Thomas Merton
Content:
laic said:
I have a few others on Dogen in my Library, including the quite new "Treasury of the True Dharma Eye". I find his writings, including his poetry, helpful in my own attempts to understand this rather strange world we live in.

Malcolm wrote:
Dogen was not troubled by Mahāyāna in the slightest. He was a committed Mahāyāni his entirely life. There is an excellent biography of Dogen published in Shambhala's lives of the Master Series written by Steve Heine. I recommend it. It is fascinating.

laic said:
I will try finding the passage you refer to another day.

Malcolm wrote:
It's in the Shambhala Edition, which you mention above is in your possession. It's short, three pages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Thomas Merton
Content:


laic said:
Dogen was troubled by the Mahayana doctrine, and wondered what was the point of practice, why the masters of old poured over the sutras and practiced so assiduously. He had to find his own answer, as maybe we all need to do. Dogen eventually found his own path, time and place. We must find ours. They are, paradoxically, the same yet different.

Malcolm wrote:
Tell me you've never read Dogen without telling me you've never read Dogen.

Please see Heart of the Way, Tanahashi translation, pp. 887-888.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 13th, 2022 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This sort of conversation is the result of people who don't study the six faulty positions about the the basis and the one valid position about the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 12th, 2022 at 8:04 AM
Title: Re: In need of some advice please. Sensitive topic.
Content:
T@sh! said:
Hi everyone,

So I'm new to Dharma Wheel and was drawn here because I have a question. It's a bit sensitive. I will not mention anything that is banned by this forum. Basically, I took an empowerment from a Lama whose views go against His Holiness the Dalai Lama with regards to a certain practice, I don't need to say more. I have since receiving the empowerment experienced intense anxiety and obstacles and realised my mistake. My question is, can I abandon my commitment vows that I made during the empowerment and break my connection to this Lama? Or what would you advise? The empowerment is a Highest Yoga Tantra practice. I don't want to be associated with this Lama at all and I don't want to do any practice that I took from him.

I wish and hope and pray that more people listen to His Holiness and heed his warnings! I certainly will from now on.

I appreciate your advice.

Thank you

jmlee369 said:
Hi Tashi(?),

I hope you don't mind me giving a more 'conservative' answer from the Gelug establishment, but it's an issue that we're constantly dealing with, and the fallout will continue for a few more generations yet. If Gelugpas abandoned all our lineages coming through gurus who practiced Shugden, the entire tradition would be dead by now.

Generally, abandoning any and all Shugden practices you have received is fine, and if you are worried about breaking any of those commitments, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has said to rely on migtsema recitation for protection.

Regarding how to view this vajra master and the other transmissions you received from them, it is a given that you should continue to view them with respect, and uphold the commitments you received, even if you no longer maintain a personal relationship with them. Just walk away but continue the practice, with the view of relying on the dharma and not the person. And view their continued involvement with Shugden as a mistake arising from their manifestation of ordinariness, just like how all our gurus make mistakes or have limitations. If you can, try to receive the empowerment again from a non-Shugden guru and remember that the nature of gurus is the same.

Malcolm wrote:
And while you are it, totally gaslight yourself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 12th, 2022 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


stong gzugs said:
Non-arising is realized even through analytical meditation a la Nagarjuna. It certainly isn't the kind of unification experience that ChNN is describing in the above quote.

Malcolm wrote:
It's not a unification experience, it's an experience of being free from references, anālambana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 12th, 2022 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I don't believe he ever said this. I studied with him for 28 years.

stong gzugs said:
Now that you have the full quote, pasted above, I'd be curious how you interpret it.

In it, ChNN clearly distinguishes between two bases, one transpersonal and one personal, and says that we can experience the transpersonal basis in meditation and this experience transcends the individual and produces a unification akin to the experience of Brahman.

Malcolm wrote:
The spyi gzhi is here defined as "space," the dharmadhātu, not consciousness, ala brahmin.  Within this space, the dhātu, is rig pa, likened to the sun. But if you think your total space is the same as my total space, you have not understood anything. The dharmadhātu is not established as anything. It is not even a nonexistent since it has never existed to begin with. It's a generic term for emptiness in Mahāyāna.

The reason ChNN here is using brahman as an example is because people tend to be very familiar with this idea of nonduality from Hindu sources. People are much more familiar with these ideas that the more refined understandings of Madhyamaka.

It is easy to.understand that when one is in a samadhi that is free from references that one will not experience time, etc. Why? Because this is state of free of references.

But there is a big difference between brahman, a transpersonal state, and the generic basis, which isn't a thing that exists, it isn't something that has the status of being. The general basis is just original purity.

When ChNN talks about the dharmadhātu, he always described it as a general emptiness, a way of talking about individual emptinessess in aggregate. Individual emptiness, of course is dharmatā śunyatā. In general, in Buddhist lingo, when we talk about elements in the universe, we talk about dhātus, like the sadadhātu, the dhatus of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness. Or we talk about the sattvadhātu, the dhātu of sentient beings, or the buddhadhātu, the dhātu of buddhahood—incidentally, the sattvadhātu and the buddhadhātu are described as being coterminous.

Finally, this original purity is said to be permeated with the three pristine consciousnesses, essence, nature, and compassion: Vimalamitra states:

Now, in particular, the following is the unsurpassed position. This incontrovertible reality is present as kāyas since the essence is unchanging.
It is also present as the basis of the arising of the inseparable three kāyas. It is not established in terms of faces and hands, the signifying attributes. The nature is present as luminosity because it is clear. Though the three luminescences are self-illuminating, they are not established with attributes of color. Compassion is present as the pristine consciousness of vidyā; though manifesting individually, since there is no cessation in the aspect of omniscience, it is neither an agent nor an action.
--Buddhahood, pg. 75

This is very much the same sort of statement as the one I referred to in the commentary of the String of Pearls Tantra which is one of the earliest discussions of the seven positions concerning the basis. If one start claiming that the generic basis "exists" like brahmin, and is transpersonal, one runs into all kinds of logical problems of identity, difference, and so on. So, the best solution to this to understand that the spyi gzhi is a set of generic characteristics that are instantiated in an individual, because if not understand it in this way, there is a conflict between original purity and compassion, that latter defined as an individual instantiation of a person's consciousness. This is just an elaborate way to talk about the nature of the mind and how the three kāyas are established as the inner clarity (nang gsal) of any given sentient being.  and that is all.

Why do you think this? You think vijñāna cannot become jñāna?
I said they were different, which they are, not that the former cannot transform into the latter, which it can.
Thus, they form a continuum, therefore consciousness can "expand.", as the Tibetan definition of buddha indicated, once obscurations are cleared away (sangs), ye shes, pristine consicousness expands (rgyas).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 12th, 2022 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Matt J said:
That is not so difficult--- based on what ChNNR is stating, it is just a matter of an individual reaching an expanded state of consciousness. Since this can include other mindstreams, in theory a Buddha that achieves some sort of universal omniscience would be a sentient being who achieved a very expanded state of knowledge.

stong gzugs said:
Are you using consciousness in an everyday or technical way here? If it's the latter, I don't think that a person's consciousness (shes pa/vijñāna) can expand out to encompass others.

Malcolm wrote:
Why do you think this? You think vijñāna cannot become jñāna? If so, not only have you not understood anything about Dzogchen, you have not understood anything about Vajrayāna, or even sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 12th, 2022 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Natan said:
I like simplify things. When we look at a yellow flower like a dandelion we all have the same experience of it, as we look at, touch it, etc. That experience is an expression of the inner workings of our bodies. The flower was not a concretized five lights. The five lights are not operating directly on the world that way. Our minds did not generate that flower.

Malcolm wrote:
It generated the way the flower appears, the representation, not the outer object. The way the flower appears is its snang lugs, mode of appearnce, the way that appearance of the flower actually exists is its gnas lugs, bhutatā, reality. The appearance of that flower does not exist as a mental factor. In Dzogchen teachings, it is held to exist as rtsal, the potential of the mind to appear in any form without being any of those forms (hence the mirror example). This is why it is clearly explained that the colors of the five lights arise from the contamination of the karma vāyus. The five lights, which are the expression of the five pristine consciousnesses, have no color of their own.

Distinguishing between the representation ('dra ba) and the basis that is being represented ('dra gzhi) is an important topic in Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 12th, 2022 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The question arises, from where does this grasping at self arise, with its concomitant deluded vision, mind and mental factors, and so on, arise if there is no continuum within which it might arise. How does diversity arise within this state if this state is a ontological singularity? A transpersonal basis must be an ontological singularity, otherwise there is no point in calling it "transpersonal."

stong gzugs said:
I'd just flip this around and ask you, again, to then explain then how the transpersonal experience of "Brahman" that ChNN described arises?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't believe he ever said this. I studied with him for 28 years.

stong gzugs said:
Now, the question of where ignorance arises from is unclear in all sorts of traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
It's actually extremely clear in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 12th, 2022 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Red "ripple"
Content:



KristenM said:
Can you provide some examples of “systemic disenfranchisement of poor and non-white people” to voting, currently? There’s record-breaking turnout for elections and Blacks and Latinos have definitely been voting in record numbers.

Malcolm wrote:
I think he is referring to racist gerrymandering in Texas and other places, which indeed disenfranchises voters, in addition to insane voting requirements, signature matching in Florida, denying ex-cons the right to vote in many states, and so on.

KristenM said:
Here's an interesting dialogue on the subject from this morning on C-Span. Both sides make some good points imo. But, then I'm a moderate Dem.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?524088-3/washington-journal-hans-von-spakovsky-sean-morales-doyle-discuss-2022-midterm-elections

Malcolm wrote:
Since the Southern Democrats switched to the Republican Party, they've been intent on maintaining their one party rule in the South. Its just the same old post-Reconstruction crap being played out today.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 11th, 2022 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Rigpa is conditioned?
Content:


Luren said:
Delson Armstrong...claims that Rigpa is a conditioned state...

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this just shows he is not very familiar with Dzogchen teachings.

There are all kinds of rig pas. The use of the term rig pa here, as Jigme Lingpa states:

"In the sutras of the Mahāyāna there are three kinds of knowledge (vidyā, rig pa), the knowledge of the deva eye, the knowledge of past existences, and the knowledge of the exhaustion of taints, which are knowledges called "cognitions (shes pa)." The dharmatā of vidyā that is beyond eight consciousness...exists as the pristine consciousness of the natural great perfection...the essence of that view is the truth of the āryas, the pristine consciousness each one knows for themselves (so so rang rig pa'i ye shes) that is free from grasping subjects and objects."

If he is asserting that the path of seeing is conditioned, it means he does not even understand Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 11th, 2022 at 12:52 PM
Title: Re: Red "ripple"
Content:
tobes said:
Looks a lot like the official end of Trump.

I had been reading too much NYT leading up to it, so had prepared myself for the opposite outcome.

And not to be too hyperbolic, but the official end of America too. I'm not sure the system itself could recover from a red wave leading to Trump 2024.


Malcolm wrote:
I have been skeptical of the red wave for some months. As it is Biden, apart from 2004, Biden has had the best midterm showing since '84.

All in all, one of the more effective American presidents we've have.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 11th, 2022 at 11:47 AM
Title: Re: Red "ripple"
Content:



Kim O'Hara said:
Some features of the US system seem to be designed to reduce the turnout.
Not saying we're perfect but we have compulsory voting and elections are held on Saturdays to make it easier for everyone to comply.

Kim

Genjo Conan said:
"Some features" meaning, in this case, the systematic disenfranchisement of poor and non-white people.  It's a feature, not a bug.

KristenM said:
Can you provide some examples of “systemic disenfranchisement of poor and non-white people” to voting, currently? There’s record-breaking turnout for elections and Blacks and Latinos have definitely been voting in record numbers.

Malcolm wrote:
I think he is referring to racist gerrymandering in Texas and other places, which indeed disenfranchises voters, in addition to insane voting requirements, signature matching in Florida, denying ex-cons the right to vote in many states, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 11th, 2022 at 10:24 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Fascinating discussion. A few more responses come to mind.



Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa begins chapter 13, "First, at the time of purifying the cloud-like obscuration of deluded appearances, the group of eight of mind and mental factors, the all-basis, and the addictive five aggregates that appear from the solidified traces of apprehending a self when the basis has arisen as an appearance from the basis...

The question arises, from where does this grasping at self arise, with its concomitant deluded vision, mind and mental factors, and so on, arise if there is no continuum within which it might arise. How does diversity arise within this state if this state is a ontological singularity? A transpersonal basis must be an ontological singularity, otherwise there is no point in calling it "transpersonal."

This is the question you have to answer. And given that the entire history of Buddhist philosophy has never proposed an ontological basis for all phenomena, and has always been pluralist and nominalist, even in Yogacāra, how can one square the assertion of an ontological basis with Dzogchen teachings? Especially in light of the fact that Dzogchen tantras negate an such ontological basis from the outset.

stong gzugs said:
If we interpret the text as Samantabhadra just representing each of our individual original state rather than a shared state, and re-reading the text as pertaining to our individual basis (per ChNN and the view on this thread more generally), the analogy seems to end up being a bit solipsistic by saying that even the other sentient beings we experience (much less the inanimate objects) are just a projection or emanation of our individual basis. This isn't a problem if we view Samantabhadra as an all-pervasive dharmakaya, in the way that Tenzin Wangyal suggests.

Malcolm wrote:
We don't reject outer objects in Dzogchen, which, if you were more studied in the subject, you would understand already. The best you can say is that in Dzogchen, all phenomena share the state of being empty and free from extremes, and that's about all they share. This emptiness, this original purity (ka nas dag pa) is not different than the original purity (gzod nas dag pa) discussed in Prajñāpāramitā,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 11th, 2022 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Jules 09 said:
The context of this discussion has been the Basis, Buddhanature, so it should be clear to which Samantabhadra I was referring: Samantabhadra that is the indivisible unity of the basic space of dharmadhatu and awareness (rig pa).

Malcolm wrote:
So yes, personal, since buddhanature isn't transpersonal nor is it an atman.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 11th, 2022 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: "Career Opportunities" Related to Dhamma
Content:
Nicholas2727 said:
I believe work in translation could offer some money no?

Malcolm wrote:
Just like musicians and actors, if you are a translator of Buddhist texts, better keep that day job. There are very few of us who make a living this way. And most of us also have PhD's or equivalent experience involving years of being poor and working day jobs. There are not many jobs in religious studies for Buddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Kai lord said:
It should be identical to the indestructible drop located at the center of heart chakra describe in HYT

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is correct. That’s why Longchenpa and so on always quote the Hevajra Tantra when the location of rig pa in the body is discussed.

Terma said:
Is this then a translation issue in regards to The Six Lamps? The second lamp is titled "The Lamp of the Flesh Heart." I could understand translation discrepancies, but surely these teachings come down in an oral lineage as well?

I am not disputing what you say in regards to longchenpa, etc., as I always understood it this way as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Tsi ta sha means “fleshy heart”, the same term is used in Nyinthig aural lineage. But it does not refer to,the heart that pumps blood. Citta is translated in these texts as “snying,” where it refers to center of the torso, not the heart that is responsible for circulation. The reason is that the heart is responsible for  it circulation of  blood is the site of the karma vayus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 7:37 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Sharp said:
Based on the position of Dzogchen represented in this thread, is the following characterization correct:

Spyi in spyi gzhi means spyi mtshan nyid, a universal characteristic or condition. Thus spyi gzhi means the “basic universal condition”. This universal condition is original purity.

There are not infinite bases for each person because the basis is a universal condition of every mind, not an entity.

To talk of this universal condition as one or many is incoherent because a universal or generic condition cannot be enumerated. For example, heat is a universal condition or characteristic of fires. This does not mean there is a separate entity, heat, that can be labelled one or many. However, the substantiation of heat in each fire is still individual.

Conventional expression in Dzogchen doesn’t go beyond Prasangika, this explanation included. Ati is wisdom, not a view.

?


Malcolm wrote:
Pretty fair.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 7:33 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Kai lord said:
It should be identical to the indestructible drop located at the center of heart chakra describe in HYT

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is correct. That’s why Longchenpa and so on always quote the Hevajra Tantra when the location of rig pa in the body is discussed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 11:26 AM
Title: Re: Red "ripple"
Content:
DNS said:
The U.S. Mid-term elections were held yesterday. The counting is still going on, but appears to be a disappointment for Republicans, who were hoping for a Red Wave. It's more like a ripple.
https://www.cbsnews.com/

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the fascists lost, and Biden had the strongest midterm showing of any president in the past 45 years.

And at the same time, fascists troops are fleeing the western bank of the Dniepro River.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 11:23 AM
Title: Re: Is Dzogchen practice similar to Zen? Is the goal / speed the same?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Is Dzogchen practice similar to Zen? Is the goal / speed the same?

Malcolm wrote:
They are completely different systems. They can’t be compared.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Terma said:
Ah okay. My question stems from a  Bon Dzogchen teaching/text from Tapahritsa. I received oral commentary but I was always wondering if there was a translation breakdown, but apparently there is not and I brought this question forward.

I always thought it was as you say so the idea that rigpa abides in the actual heart was new to me and was hard to wrap my head around.

Thoughts?

Malcolm wrote:
which text?

Terma said:
The Six Lamps

Malcolm wrote:
There is no evidence in that text that the actual heat, the so called "don snying" is meant as the location.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Terma said:
What about in the physical heart?

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not it. The heart center is located below the physical heart and above the diaphragm.

Terma said:
Ah okay. My question stems from a  Bon Dzogchen teaching/text from Tapahritsa. I received oral commentary but I was always wondering if there was a translation breakdown, but apparently there is not and I brought this question forward.

I always thought it was as you say so the idea that rigpa abides in the actual heart was new to me and was hard to wrap my head around.

Thoughts?

Malcolm wrote:
which text?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Terma said:
What about in the physical heart?

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not it. The heart center is located below the physical heart and above the diaphragm.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Jules 09 said:
- So, in your opinion; are you claiming that a sentient being recognizes/knows(rig pa) it's own basis?
In which case, this would imply that you are also claiming that every sentient being has their own
personal Samantabhadra.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not claiming this. This is what it is clearly stated in a thousand Dzogchen texts.

Just as there are five kinds of vidyā, there are also find kinds of Samantabhadra. The Commentary on the Six Dimensions of Samantabhadra gives this as the essence and the definition:
1.1.3.3.1.1 The essence of Samantabhadra is that it arises as the nature of everything, is not covered by anything and does not fall into any extreme.
1.1.3.3.1.2 The definition is that since there are many, sam. Since those are included in the foundation, one’s mind, anta. Since the evil concepts of samsara are interrupted, bhadra.
Now, what were you saying about Samantabhadra not being personal?

In reality, there are five Samantabhadras (and more) discussed in Dzogchen teachings: Original Nature Samantabhadra, Ornament Samantabhadra, [7/a] Teacher Samantabhadra, Vidyā Samantabhadra, Realization Samantabhadra, and so on. So it really depends, which Samantabhadra is one referencing?

Every sentient being who wakes up through Dzogchen methods can be called Samantabhadra. as explained in the Mind Mirror Tantra:

I am Realization Samantabhadra;
the yogin who dwells in the state of Samantabhadra
dwells on the stage of the sugatas. 
Samantabhadra (endowed with the meaning of realization) is the undistracted state, 
Samantabhadri is the unrestricted vast sphere.

So, be clear when asking questions about Samantabhadra, which one do you mean?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Terma said:
Thanks. While still trying to be a little vague, could you say that rigpa could be pinpointed to a certain place in the body in which it abides?

Malcolm wrote:
VIdyā is located in the heart center.

Terma said:
Malcolm, are you not accepting PM's?

Malcolm wrote:
No, too many strange PMs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Bodhicitta
Content:



Terma said:
Am I correct in thinking that Bodhicitta is understood in a completely different context in Dzogchen teaching?

In Dzogchen is Bodhicitta the natural result of abiding in the view and not so much something that one looks to cultivate as is done on the gradual path?

What does "byang chub" translate to in the context of Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhicitta is the name for the basis in sems sde.

byang means pure; chub means perfect.

The term "byang chub sems" in Dzogchen has nothing at all to do with the Mahāyāna division of bodhicitta into relative and ultimate bodhicittas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Rigpa, the basis, has a location in the body

Terma said:
Malcolm, can you elaborate a little on this point? I have received some teachings on this and I am interested in understanding it a little better.

Unless of course it is deemed too secret. The teaching I am referring to would probably fall into that category so I don't want to say much.

Malcolm wrote:
It is crucial to understand that our experience of the five elements arises from our misperception of the five lights of the five relative pristine consciousnesses that apprehend characteristics (the mirror-like, and so forth). This is why the "uncompounded" bindu of vidyā in the heart center and the "compounded" causal bindu in the heart center are identical.

This is also why Nāgārjuna's dictum, "Through knowledge of samsara is nirvana" is totally relevant to this discussion, as well as Nāgārjuna's observation that neither compounded nor uncompounded phenomena can be established, since they are relative to one another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: In need of some advice please. Sensitive topic.
Content:
T@sh! said:
My question is, can I abandon my commitment vows that I made during the empowerment and break my connection to this Lama? Or what would you advise? The empowerment is a Highest Yoga Tantra practice. I don't want to be associated with this Lama at all and I don't want to do any practice that I took from him.

Malcolm wrote:
You are not required to do the practice you received the empowerment for. Just move on, and pick your teachers more carefully in the future.

You really don't need to worry.

Relax, and move on with your life. If you are mainly interested in Gelug teachings, there are any number of qualified Gelug masters out there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Natan said:
But conditioned and unconditioned violates the tetralemma.

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, these two things do not stand in contradiction, it is only in pre-Prasanga Madhyamaka, like the Madhyamaka Rongzom criticized, where these are considered to be mutually exclusive.

The reality of it is that everything is simultaneously compounded and uncompounded, as the Sound Tantra commentaries points out:

Now then, it may be said “That is not the Great Perfection because the view is involved in avoiding extremes.” [We reply], that since [the view] is perfect as existence, this means there is nothing to seek. Since it is perfect as nonexistence, there is nothing to abandon. Since it is perfect as both, the meaning is that it is beyond accepting and rejecting. Since it is perfect as neither, everything becomes dharmatā. In the same way, In the same way, since being empty, not empty, and so on, are perfect, it is the meaning of the Great Perfection without falling into the extreme of hope and fear. Further, since it is a singularity, proliferation is eliminated. Since it is a plurality, there is nothing to abandon. Since it is an extreme, the middle is eliminated, since it is the middle, likewise, the extremes are eliminated. 

As such, how is it to be understood? Because there no middle in which to abide because of being free from extremes, the middle is annulled by negating the extremes, and likewise, there are also no extremes to perceive because the middle is negated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 10th, 2022 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One, you are taking the term "ye" too literally. The more common descriptor is thog ma, as in thog ma gzhi, original basis. This basis is also called the spyi gzhi, the generic basis.

Sharp said:
I think you have hit exactly on the difference between our interpretations. This makes total sense now.

I take Ye to mean the same thing as ka. A. Original, primordial, fundamental, alpha. I take this literally because the texts do.

Malcolm wrote:
They don't actually.

Sharp said:
For me, ye and ka and spyi are all basically synonyms, the difference is only contextual.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you have enough Tibetan to make this judgement. Anyway, you are mistaken.

Sharp said:
The point of them all is the same: the refer to the most primordial point in the "story of becoming". Literally, in all senses, and also in this very moment.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no primordial point.

Sharp said:
Spyi is the word you translate as "generic". Why?

Malcolm wrote:
I've already explained this in detail elsewhere. It is a contraction of spyi mtshan nyid, samanya lakṣana.

Sharp said:
The fact that you reference it as being a synonym with thog ma actually emboldens this point. Thog ma does not mean generic either, does it?

Malcolm wrote:
Thog ma means "initial," but since there is no actual initial point, it refers to a generic set of conditions.

Sharp said:
I don't speak medieval Tibetan. But I understand semantics. For me, the meaning is different. I think your interpretation is too idiosyncratic. I disagree with it. I think spyi gzhi means fundamental ground of existence, and this means the same thing as it does anywhere else.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no fundamental ground of existence. You ignore your very own invocation of the Madhyamaka caturskoti. Why?

Sharp said:
I haven't disregarded the rest of your post by the way, I will certainly take your recommendations away to study further. But as above, I don't perceive a conflict with your sources, I perceive a conflict with your presentation of them.

Malcolm wrote:
That's because you don't understand the depth and breadth of Dzogchen teachings. You simply haven't studied it enough. Keep studying.

Sharp said:
This is literally exactly what I have been saying for the entirety of the conversation. You think it supports your interpretation, I think it supports mine. Maybe not so far apart.

Malcolm wrote:
You err on the side of taking a universal to be real, a ground of existence. This conflicts with Dzogchen teaching. Emptiness isn't real, it is not a thing entities possess, it is strictly a generic descriptor, an abstraction. What does it describe? Absence of inherent existence, svabhāva.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 9th, 2022 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Natan said:
Finally, the difference between the thumb-sized atman in the heart with the bindu of rigpa is that the latter is defined [in tne Khandro Nyinthig] as both compounded and uncompounded, since it is, according to Guru Rinpoche, identical with the causal bindu in the heart, made up of the refined five elements, the vayus, and the mind, and thus it is not permanent, nor does it shift from one body to another.
So now rigpa is compounded? AND Uncompounded? Both is AND is not. Hard not to notice that this is one of the four extremes aka a wrong view.

Malcolm wrote:
Read it again. This is stated quite clearly in tne Khandro Nyinthig root text. Rigpa is always embodied. There is no such thing as bodiless rigpa. In Dzogchen teachings, even formless realm beings have subtle form. Rigpa, the basis, has a location in the body, a pathway in the body, etc. The thugs rje aspect of the basis is rig pa. Thugs rje is also defined as one’s consciousness in tne String of Pearls commentary, and above, in section on five rigpas, you can see the various ways  rig pa is defined. Rely on what original Dzogchen tantras and commentaries say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 9th, 2022 at 8:53 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


stong gzugs said:
The last two are just speculations, but would help explain why teachers emphasize the individuality so much, when it may be more accurate to say that the basis transcends the individual/collective distinction as Tenzin Wangyal and others in this thread have suggested above.

Malcolm wrote:
With respect to CHNN, whoever transcribed that failed to recognize Rinpoche’s Kham dialect, in which spyi is pronounced quite similarly to gshis.

This spyi is a contraction of spyi mtshan nyid, samanya laksana, I.e. generic characteristic, and in all Buddhist systems, universals, I.e generic characteristics, are held to be unreal. It’s almost unnecessary to point out that the Vaishesika/Nyaya is rejected in Dzogchen tenet systems presentations because they maintain the actual existence of universals.

As for things pervading samsara and nirvana, again, samsara and nirvana are personal by definition, not transpersonal. When one eliminates afflictions, samsara is no longer an experience for oneself. There is no universal samsara in which all beings live. As Nagarjuna states “This pair, samsara and nirvana, do not exist, however, thorough knowledge of samsara is nirvana.” So again, neither samsara nor nirvana are transpersonal phenomena.

Jean Luc Achard has completely refuted Tenzin Wangyal’s presentation of khyab rig, pointing out that this is just a Bonpo term for sugatagarbha, and that khyab rig only is found in sentient beings, not inanimate things.

Finally, the difference between the thumb-sized atman in the heart with the bindu of rigpa is that the latter is defined [in tne Khandro Nyinthig] as both compounded and uncompounded, since it is, according to Guru Rinpoche, identical with the causal bindu in the heart, made up of the refined five elements, the vayus, and the mind, and thus it is not permanent, nor does it shift from one body to another.

Your qualm about the limit to sentient beings assumes somehow that sentient beings are only humans. Why do you have this assumption? It’s strange. There are more ants under your house than humans on the planet.

There is a chapter in the Treaxury of the Supreme Vehicle on difficult points. I have discussed this elsewhere on several occasions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 9th, 2022 at 7:20 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Jules 09 said:
The luminosity of one's vidyā is "personal" when it is limited by the mental construct of self: 'I', 'me' and 'my' vidyā.

"The difference between buddhas and sentient beings lies in the latter's narrowness of scope and attitude.
Sentient beings confine themselves to their own limited area of samsara through their own attitude and thinking.

It is said that the difference between buddhas and sentient beings is like the difference between the narrowness and openness of space. Sentient beings are like the space held within a tightly closed fist, while buddhas are fully open,
all-encompassing.

Basic space and awareness are innately all-encompassing. Basic space is the absence of mental constructs, while awareness is the knowing of this absence of constructs, recognizing the complete emptiness of mind essence.
Space and awareness are inherently indivisible."

- Tulku Urgyen

From: Chapter 1, The Basis: Buddhanature, in 'as it is' Vol.1 (pp.33-34).

Malcolm wrote:
This doesn't mean what you think it means. There are only individual minds, they possess no identity per se, but they are all individual and unique. Dzogchen teachings are not in contradiction with, for example, Vasubandhu's proof of individual mind streams.

When uneducated people opine about subjects like this, not understanding the depth and breadth of the Buddhadharma, and training in siddhāntas, they mislead people, just as you are doing here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 9th, 2022 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You seem to forget that from the point of view of Dzogchen teachings everything is completely equivalent to an illusion. That means that even Dzogchen teachings and everything they describe are just a set of conventions and nothing more. But those conventions are important because they assist sentient beings, who don’t exist, to realize a Buddhahood that doesn’t exist

Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
John Lennon was on point:
Nothing is real
And nothing to get hung about
Strawberry fields forever


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 9th, 2022 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Sharp said:
Why I am confused: the basis is called the basis because it is the basis for sentient beings and buddhas. In a very simplified way, Ma rigpa, sentient beings, are one function, rigpa, buddhas, are another function.

However, in its latent state, prior to the arising of sentient being or buddhas, how could you describe the basis, in this state, as personal?

Malcolm wrote:
In the same way that in a state of deep sleep there is no appearance of buddhas or sentient beings in our mind. Nevethless, when we awaken, the basis of our perceptions of dreams vs. waking is just our own consciousness.

The basis is a generic description of a set of qualities belonging to our own consciousness, the nature of the mind. The basis, aka sugatagarbha, does not belong to inanimate things.

The term "basis" in Vajrayāna texts has a long history and all traditions, including Dzogchen depend on a citation from the Guhyasamāja Uttaratantra:

A tantra is called a continuum.
This can be divided into three aspects:
the basis, the nature,
and the incorruptible.
The nature aspect is the cause.
Likewise, the incorruptible is the result.
The basis is called “the method.”
These three include the topics of tantra.

The basis can only be personal. It is part of an individual sentient being's continuum of basis, path, and result to buddhahood. The term "basis" has no meaning outside of this context. In Vajrayāna teachings in general, the term basis refers to the five aggregates. In Anuyoga and Dzogchen the term "basis" refers to pristine consciousness or sugatagarbha.

You can see this explanation given quite fully by Dudjom R. in the Big Red Book, pp. 261-267. He begins his discussion with the above citation.

Sharp said:
The basis [for sentient beings/buddhas], which is personal, has not yet "arisen from the basis". To whom or what function could the term personal correspond, since there is no who, no what, no function i.e. "no thing, no-one, nothing at all"?

Malcolm wrote:
This again is subjective. Since the basis is latent, it isn't a nothing, since it is described latent, it has the potential to arise. And what is this basis? Just your mind between eons. This is all very clearly described in the commentary on the Sound Tantra, etc.

Sharp said:
Why would it not be accurate to say that, primordially, prior to the arising of sentient beings or buddhas i.e. individual perspectives, that the basis cannot be described as individual or non-individual or any other adjective within the catuskoti, in this state?

Malcolm wrote:
One, you are taking the term "ye" too literally. The more common descriptor is thog ma, as in thog ma gzhi, original basis. This basis is also called the spyi gzhi, the generic basis. Not only this, you are ignoring the fact that what causes the basis "to arise" are traces of karma. Well, where do you think that karmic residue comes from?

You are understanding the caturskoti according to the Madhyamaka way, not the Dzogchen way. What is the Dzogchen way? Vimalamitra states in the Sound Commentary:

"Free from the extreme of existing, emptiness transcends identification. Free from the extreme of not existing, the circle of the luminosity of one’s vidyā transcends the extreme of annihilation. Freedom from both [existing and not existing] transcends grasping the extremes of permanence and annihilation. Freedom from neither [existing nor not existing] lacks bias and falling into extremes. Likewise, because of being free from all extremes, such as appearance, nonappearance, both, and neither, clarity, obscuration, and both of those extremes, being, nonbeing, and so on, no extreme at all is fallen into, and further, there is freedom in total perfection without abandoning the principle of freedom [from the four proliferations]."

When understood in this way, there is no contradiction between absence of identity (emptiness transcending identification, Madhyamaka caturskoti) and the luminosity of one's vidyā, which is necessarily personal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 8th, 2022 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: a poll about fifth precept
Content:
dawn of peace said:
are five precepts pre.requisite for tantric initiation? or will people automatically receipt the five precepts after the initiations? or can people take them separately?

KathyLauren said:
In my experience, precepts are not required prerequisites for initiations, not are they given automatically as part of initiations.

Malcolm wrote:
In every initiation, upāsaka pratimokṣa are automatically received when ones recites the verses of refuge after the presiding master, along with the bodhisattva trainings when one recites the verses of generating bodhicitta. Thus, there is no initiation where one does not adopt Mahāyāna pratimokṣa and the bodhisattva trainings.

But in the Sarvastivāda tradition, to which all Tibetan Buddhist traditions and their offshoots belong, one has a choice of which of the upāsaka five disciplines (samvara) one will maintain: one discipline, two disciplines, three disciplines, or all five.

The commitments of refuge however, which differ from the pratimokṣa, must be followed by everyone. The commitment of going for refuge to the Buddha is to refrain from taking nonbuddhist teachers, such as Jesus, Shiva, Krishna, Lao Tzu, and so on, as one's teacher. The commitment to going for refuge in the Dharma is avihimsa, to refrain from harming others, and the commitment to going for refuge to the Sangha is to refrain from associating with evil people and those who would cause harm to the Three Jewels.

Thus a one discipline upāsaka maintains the discipline of not killing (which principally means not killing humans, but also in killing in general) in addition to the commitments of refuge. A two discipline upāsaka maintains the discipline of not killing, and not stealing, in addition to the commitments of refuge. A three discipline upāsaka maintains the discipline of not killing, not stealing, and not lying, in addition to the commitments of refuge. A  full upāsaka maintains all five disciplines, in addition to the commitments of refuge, because the discipline of refraining from sexual misconduct depends on the discipline of refraining from intoxication.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 8th, 2022 at 9:36 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Further, if accurate conventions for rig pa are not possible

Sharp said:
Correct. Rigpa is not a conceptual view. All conventions (conceptual views) of it are therefore inaccurate by definition.

Malcolm wrote:
P.S. I guess you have no idea how incoherent your posts are.

Rig pa is only a convention, therefore it is empty, and therefore signless.

No one asserted that “rig pa” was a conceptual view. But because rig pa is conventional, therefore it’s functionality can be accurately described, just as the functionality of ma rig pa can be described. This is the point you miss. The same thing applies to that basis. The basis Is described in terms of a certain set of characteristics which have specific functions. You seem to forget that from the point of view of Dzogchen teachings everything is completely equivalent to an illusion. That means that even Dzogchen teachings and everything they describe are just a set of conventions and nothing more. But those conventions are important because they assist sentient beings, who don’t exist, to realize a Buddhahood that doesn’t exist, because if there was a basis that existed as anything other than a mere convention, neither Buddhas nor sentient beings would be possible. It is for this reason that accuracy in describing the path is important. That’s all this is about.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 8th, 2022 at 8:44 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Sharp said:
I appreciate the translations, I'm sorry they were unnecessary. Here is a quote from Norbu Rinpoche instead:

[

Malcolm wrote:
And I’ve already responded with a citation that clarifies this statement, which you’ve chosen to,ignore, just as you e ignored the fact that there is a conscious aspect of the basis, which disallows anything other an understanding that the basis (primordial state) is personal, which ChNN has actually stated many times. I am sure someone can provide you the citation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 8th, 2022 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Should a Guru demand respect from his students?
Content:
BuddingScribe said:
As I listed in my intro post a few days ago, my only teaching of the Dharma comes from an online group on Slack. And it’s in a way that group that brings me here. Something about the attitude of the Guru recently has stuck me as a little odd. As my time as a member has gone on there has been an shift in the way we offer respect to the Guru. Firstly we had to follow every teaching with Gui Ming Shang Shi! Then post that once a day regardless of if a teaching had been posted. Then post it multiple times a day to show our commitment to learning. And most days we would get reminders to do this along with warnings that the Guru felt displeased we weren’t showing enough respect to his teachings. To me this seems an almost egotistical and prideful reaction that I imagine would be absent in a guru. Am I making to much of this or is this a reason for concern ? It’s just one in a line of red flags I’m seeing with this group.

Malcolm wrote:
Run as fast as you can as far away as you can from this group.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 8th, 2022 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate emptiness of matter
Content:
Vajrasambhava said:
According to nowdays Science, there are irreducible elementary particles such as quarks, electrons, preons etc.
Do they lack inherent existence?
Even if in future we discover more subtle particles, is it possible to find a state of matter which is not dependent of anything else?

Malcolm wrote:
No.

Vajrasambhava said:
Can you please explain why?
Thank you


Malcolm wrote:
All of these particles are produced through conditions. Since they are produced through conditions, and since they affect and are in turn affected by other things, they are compounded, can be created and destroyed, and therefore, are dependent phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Sharp said:
Jules09 is correct - an accurate convention is not possible.

Malcolm wrote:
No, he is incorrect. A convention is not just an arbitrary designation. A convention is an appearance, which is then given a designation according to its function, for example, a car.

Further, if accurate conventions for rig pa are not possible, then why do such authors as Vimalamitra, Longchenpa, and Jigme Lingpa go through such trouble to describe it in such detail? They go through such trouble because they are using language to describe a path dharma. For example, Vimalamitra goes through five different types of rig pa in a text called the Lamp that Summarizes Vidyā in the Agate Letters from the Vima Nyinthig (vol. 2, pp. 226-228).

"The first of these five is called "the vidyā that apprehends (generic) and particular characteristics. The vidyā that apprehends [generic] and particular characteristics is called "the vidyā that nominally designates generic and intrinsic [characteristics] of phenomena. That is one's own vidyā that is just a clear and nonconceptual consciousness (shes pa) contaminated by many cognitions (shes pa). 

Next is the [vidyā] that appropriates the basis. When [it] dwells in one's body, it generates all consciousnesses and abides merely as an intrinsic clarity, that is called "unripened vidyā." 

The vidyā of the original basis is the essence, the originally pure reality, existing endowed with three pristine consciousnesses (ye shes). Undivided vidyā exists as the essence of omniscient pristine consciousness. That pristine consciousness abides as a subtle pristine consciousness. If that pristine consciousness did not exist, there could be no liberation from emptiness, on the other hand (if not asserted to be empty), there would be no liberation from the inert. If vidyā exists as (five-fold) pristine consciousness it would be no different than the nirmāṇakāya. 

The vidyā of vipaśyanā is the vivid appearances when the instruction is explained, and therefore, the self-appearance is termed "endowed with an essential bindu." Though many different appearances are exhibited, all arise from nonarising, a great miraculous display (of vidyā) in every way. 

The vidyā of thögal is having reached the measure of appearances due to practice (though their own nature is not established), there is no increase or decrease in experience. After the signs and qualities are complete, though their nature is not established, when it is intrinsically clear as omniscient pristiene consciousness, it is called "casting off the the Dharma (because it is beyond words)," it is called "the exhaustion of phenomena (because an original nature cannot be found)," it is called "transcending Dharma (because the instructions cannot be found)," and it is called "liberation from phenomena) because there is no arising in mere arising. 

Are those vidyās the same or different? They are not different, because there is nothing more than a single nature. When this vidyā is seen from the perspective of subtlety, it is called "profound." When it is seen from the perspective of bindus and lights, it is called an "appearance." When seen from the perspective of clarity, it is called wisdom (prajñā). When it is seen from the perspective of appearing as diverse appearances, it is called "vast." When it is seen from the perspective of bliss, it is called "compassion (thugs rje)." When it is seen from the perspective of existing as observable, it is also an entity (dngos po). When arriving at the measure of practice, the exhaustion of phenomena, it is empty. There nothing other than a single essence, and since there nothing to clarify or obscure, it is unique and singular (nyag cig). Since the apparent part of appearances exponentially increase, it is multiple. Since the appearances that arise every way are indescribable, it is limitless. When seen from the perspective of there being nothing other than single meaning vidyā, it also subsumes. When seen from perspective of natureless colors, it is clear. As such, all the appearances appearing as diverse appearances never go beyond a single vidyā.

And then of course, we have Vimalamitra's definition in the Blossoming Lotus:
Vidyā (rig pa) is (1) the knowledge of names designated by words; (2) the five sciences (rig pa gnas lnga) such as helpful worldly knowledge like healing, arts and crafts, the treatises, and so on; (3) knowledge (rig pa) as a factor of consciousness, such as sharp and dull worldly knowledge and so on; and (4) the knowledge of the essence (snying po) that permeates all, which is free from ignorance, unobscured by the obscurations of ignorance, and so on.
In this last definition then, we see vidyā, rig pa, being defined primarily in terms of fourth definition given in the Agate Letters.

Finally to settle the question of whether vidyā is personal or not, in Buddhahood in this Life it is stated:

As such, since there is neither good or bad nor large or small in the reality (gnas lugs) of the original basis or in the reality (gnas lugs) of the individual vidyā of sentient beings in the present, it is said that the three times are one and undifferentiated. If it is asked why this is so, it is because it is self-originated, self-arisen, and self-liberated.

Again Buddhahood we find how delusion happens. How does delusion happen? It happens because there is a consciousness aspect to the basis:

Second, the delusion due to not recognizing one’s appearances: if it is asked how delusion came about, delusion arose from the difference
between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis. Apart from generally pervading, the so-called basis is totally undifferentiated, without any consideration of delusion or nondelusion. That so-called knower [26b] or “mind” (the special assertion of a consciousness explained in our own texts) is deluded.

So, since we also know that Garab Dorje's commentary on the Single Son of the all the Buddha's tantra clearly states that this universe cycle arises based on the latent traces left over from sentient beings in the last universe cycle, we don't have to wonder where consciousnesses come from, or the sense organs that rose up from the basis, as described in the commentary to the Sound Tantra.

And all of this is merely on the level of conventional, that is functional, descriptions of the appearance of basis, path, and result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: Ultimate emptiness of matter
Content:
Vajrasambhava said:
According to nowdays Science, there are irreducible elementary particles such as quarks, electrons, preons etc.
Do they lack inherent existence?
Even if in future we discover more subtle particles, is it possible to find a state of matter which is not dependent of anything else?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
You have a penchant for quoting things that don’t mean what you claim they do.

This is a very standard forum cop out “it can’t be described so you are wrong for disagreeing with me”…borderline trolling.

Malcolm wrote:
Especially when such citations have been clarified by other citations. Basically, Jules’ Dzogchen means resting in an inanimate state of unconsciousness, like a block of wood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 7:23 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Engaging in affirmation and rejection of concepts about buddhanature is not the path of the natural Great Perfection.

Malcolm wrote:
Tell me you know nothing about the path of  dzogchen without telling me you know nothing about the path of dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Jules 09 said:
That's all well and good. But it doesn't mean that buddhanature is something that belongs to the misconception that is given the name 'sentient being'.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas are also misconceptions. Since there are no Buddhas and no sentient beings, there also can’t be a Buddhanature that is anything other than a conventional designation imputed on a sentient being, unless of course you are asserting Buddhanature is real and not a misconception as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Are you saying that Dzogchen teachings reify personal identity?

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen teachings accept the limitations of language in discourse. For example, the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra begins: "Children of good families, listen faithfully without distraction! My explanation of the great meaning to each of you will remove the concepts in your minds."

So here we have the pronouns my, you, and your.

Further:

For sentient beings without realization,
each word must be understood with each meaning.
Therefore, connect the meanings with the words
and illustrate the great meaning with words.
Therefore, investigate the connection between the words and
meanings.
Though the illustrative words and letters
may not exist in utter purity itself,
because they remove mental doubts,
one should always be acquainted with the words.

And:

The transcendent state of all buddhas
is not words and syllables,
but appears like words and syllables.
Nevertheless, the great meaning is unravelled with words.

So, fortunately, even though the meaning of the great perfection is beyond verbal reifications such as self, other, and so on, Nāgarjuna's dictum remains in force in Dzogchen teachings:

Without relying on the conventional, the ultimate will not be understood;
without realizing the ultimate, nirvana will not be attained.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, November 7th, 2022 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
krodha said:
Ju Mipham’s ”Investigation of the Essential Identity: Neither One Nor Many” from ‪the Four Great Logical Arguments of the Middle Way‬ is also quite good on this topic...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and no one is arguing there is inherently existent basis. In fact, it is impossible, since the basis is not a real entity, and something which inherently exists cannot exist as a continuum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Sharp said:
A personal basis is literally an Atman.

Malcolm wrote:
A personal basis is literally not an atman, it's a tantra, a continuum. There is no such thing as a transpersonal continuum in Buddhadharma, anywhere.

I will see your Longchenpa and raise you:

In brief, when the concept apprehending a self arises out of the basis, the state of original luminosity, there was delusion into samsāra because of not recognizing one’s state. While enjoying the diversity of happiness and suffering, buddhahood itself existed within oneself. Since one practiced according to the profound instructions introduced by the guru, since one recognized the appearance of luminosity arising from oneself in this life, the bardo or the next life, after one is free from samsāra, one will accomplish the intention of effortlessly accomplishing the two benefits, thus it is necessary to be diligent in practice.

-- Lama Yangthig, the Great Aural Lineage.

Or we have Vimalamitra defining a tantra in the Blossoming Lotus Commentary:

A tantra (rgyud, continuum) is both pure and impure. The pure tantra is (1) the pure continuum of the natural state, (2) the pure continuum of the supporting object, and (3) the pure continuum through the critical point of progress in one’s own vidyā.

The pure continuum of the mode of being of the entities of the pure natural state is the essence, the originally pure basis that is not confirmed
by anyone [5b] and is beyond multiple expressions. Not even a slight object of delusion exists as something to designate with words. The natural mode of existing includes consciousness and the objects of consciousness. That consciousness is included in the continuum of a perfect buddha.

I could go on, but TL;DR.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: a poll about fifth precept
Content:
pemachophel said:
According to Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen, drinking tshog chang/amrit at tshog does not violate the 5th precept since the alcohol has been transformed into amrit.

Malcolm wrote:
This raises the question, is the wine actually transubstantiated into the blood of Christ (catholic) or is it a symbol (protestant)?

BTW, in the second Sakya volume, which will come out next year, there is a procedure for making ritual alcohol for ganapujas derived from the Samvarodaya tantra. I think I will still probably go for a nice Pinot Noir or Cab instead.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: a poll about fifth precept
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I don’t follow precepts. Why should I? I don’t steal, lie, kill, or engage in sexual misconduct. I do like wine, but I don’t get drunk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Split topic: Income of Mega Churches
Content:


Kai lord said:
Speak for yourself and to use your own words: you aren't even on the board or have access to internal information on the financial operations. How you even know they are making good profit and are good business before making that claim?

Malcolm wrote:
The Khyentse Foundation has millions invested in the markets. Their net worth in 2019 was 55 million. It’s in their annual reports, which are public.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Sharp said:
As others have said, linguistic conventions are useful as a pedagogical tool, but are naturally going to be limited by dualistic language.

Here is a hopefully useful quote from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche on this point. He warns against taking conventions such as "personal Samantabhadra" (for example) to imply infinite, individual Samantabhadra's, explaining that doing so would be an error and entering into dualism (avidya):

We could think that there are infinite Samantabhadras, but when we are in the state of Samatabhadra, what does “infinite” mean? This is already a limited viewpoint. The true condition is beyond numbers. If we think in terms of an “individual being”, this means that we are limiting, and consequently everything becomes complicated. If we want to understand, we must not limit [...] in knowledge there is not even the concept of “one and two,” otherwise we have already entered into dualism. Also the concept of “individual” presupposes dualistic vision. But Samantabadhra is beyond all this, isn’t he?”

Malcolm wrote:
You’ve misunderstood his point. You can understand this by contrasting this statement with others in this thread. For example, CHNN taught:

There is a saying of Guru Padmasambhava: “All enlightened beings in that real state are of the same principle; in wisdom all enlightened beings are the same.” This does not mean that all beings become one, but they are one in being of the same principle, the same knowledge, the same condition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 7:54 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Kai lord said:
Early Buddhist schools were seemingly dualistic as they distinguished between citta and rupa or mind and matter and while rupa does not originate from citta, they are clearly inseparable and interdependent.

Injrabodi said:
I'm not a particularly educated man, nor a scholar. I am a simple farmer. However I must say that this sounds exactly like Sāṅkhya.

In Sāṅkhya there exist two primordial elements- Puruṣa (consciousness) and Prakṛti (matter/energy). Puruṣa is that which perceives and Prakṛti is that which is perceived (including all mental phenomena).

All of the various layers of reality are born from the seeming union and division of Puruṣa and Prakṛti.

Kai lord said:
However as one moves up to higher vehicles, their differences will gradually become more abstract and the distinctions start to become blur which eventually culminated in "non-duality " or totality state taught in Vajrayana especially Dzogchen.

Injrabodi said:
This is exactly what is taught in Kashmiri Shaivism. They expanded the map of the tattvas beyond Puruṣa and Prakṛti, to various levels of their union. At the uppermost level is Paraśiva, the perfect and absolute union of Śiva and Śakti.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not what is taught in Vajrayana. But since you are a Hindu, it’s none of your business.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, November 6th, 2022 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Kai lord said:
No new sentinel being would imply that there are infinite sentinel beings

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there are an infinite number of sentient beings. And as the Buddha said, the sattvadhātu neither increases nor decreases.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
For example, in all Samkhya presentations, the five elements are the grossest, tamasic expression of Prakrit. In Buddhadharma, the five elements are fundamental and primary, not tamasic at all.


Sādhaka said:
But do not Samkhyas talk about the Five Tattvas or Tattwas, that are non-tamasic and prior to & more subtle than the Five Elements; somewhat similar to how in Dzogchen the Five Elements appearing as coarse and gross is an result of ignorance? (I mean there is still more nuance to that, in Dzogchen; but you get what I’m referring to here).

Malcolm wrote:
The five tanmatras are the sense objects, out of which the five bhutas evolve.

In Buddhism, the five bhutas are primary, and from them are made the material ten sense organs and sense objects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to one opinion Longchenpa cites in the Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, sentient beings are always there latently, thus new sentient beings never come into being.


Sādhaka said:
Not to contradict Longchenpa—and I am not here necessarily, as you said that he cited the above opinion, not that it is an opinion that he held himself—yet this presents an problem which is that if the Buddhahood that comes as a result of Mahasandhi or Dzogchen specifically is irreversible, then all sentient-beings since beginning-less time should have gotten a karmic-connection to Dzogchen through interdependence and have already attained irreversible Buddhahood by now. And that apparently isn’t the case.

You did also say above that Buddhas can fall back into samsara at the beginning of any Mahakalpa, but that only applies to Buddhas who attained Buddhahood through Yanas other than Mahasandhi, yes?

Therefore it seems that we can conclude that new sentient beings could somehow appear…. But as you’ve said before, perhaps quoting or paraphrasing Longchenpa, that it is one of those difficult points.

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa rejects the idea that new sentient beings can appear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Natan said:
There's not one cite that says or implies Buddhanature is individual and specific to each person.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, the Lankāvtāra Sūtra states that tathāgatagarbha is just a name for the ālayavijñāna. How is the ālayavijñāna not personal and individual?

Asanga states in the Uttaratantra commentary that the name for the dharmakāya encased in afflictions is "tathāgatagarbha." How can personal afflictions encase a transpersonal entity? He later states in the same that the name for suchness, tathāta, encased in afflictions is tathāgatagarbha. The same question applies. He later describes sentient beings as "tathāgarbhins", possessors of tathāgatagarbha. In the same way consciousness pervades all sentient beings, it is stated that tathāgatagarbha pervades all sentient beings. However, no one thinks the phrase "consciousness pervades all sentient beings" means there is one unitary consciousness that pervades all sentient beings. It is the same with the basis, tathāgatagarbha. Finally, Asanga concludes his treatises by pointing out that the gnosis of tathāgatagarbha is just the tathāgata's gnosis of emptiness. He says:

"Without the gnosis of ultimate emptiness, it is impossible to realize and actualize the dhātu of pure nonconceptuality. Having stated this, the gnosis of tathāgatagarbha is the Tathāgata's gnosis of emptiness. Further, it is said extensively that the tathāgatagarbha has not been seen or realized by all śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas. However tathāgatagarbha is, the dharmakāyagarbha is just like that, and it is not within the domain of those who fall into a view of personality (satkāyadṛṣṭi), because the dharmadhātu is the antidote to views."

So how is the dharmadhātu defined in this text? Again "The so-called dharmadhātu is the tathāgatagabha that is no different than the nature of one's dharmatā."

So here you have a very precise description of tathāgatagarbha being described as individual and specific to each sentient being. Since the spyi gzhi is just a term for tathāgatagarbha in Dzogchen teachings, we can understand the meaning to be the same here, especially since in the discussion of how the basis exists in the body in the third topic of the Tshig don mdzod, Longchenpa mainly cites from the Uttaratantra.

In the same way that we talk about the vijñānadhātu or the sattvadhātu as aggregates of consciousness and sentient beings, we talk about the dharmadhātu as an an aggregate of dharmatās. Without individual dharmatās that belong to dharmins, we cannot talk about dharmatās at all, just as we cannot talk about the emptiness of nonexistents like the children of barren women, etc.

And of course in Vajrayāna teachings, we go a step further and site the location of sugatagarbha in the bodies of sentient beings. However, the idea the sugatagarbha sited in the bodies of all sentient beings refers to one transpersonal entity has been rejected by the Buddha very clearly as an incorrect view of atman. For example, the Nirvana Sūtra (Chinese recension) explicitly rejects it: "Child of a good family, some tīrthikas advocate a permanent "self," other advocate an annhilationist "not-self." The Tathagata is not like that. Because he teaches self and not-self, it is called "the middle." Now, whoever teaches the Buddha's middle way can say that the nature of buddhahood exists in all sentient beings, but it is not known and not seen because it is obscured by afflictions. Therefore, be diligent in the method of eliminating afflictions."  The Indian recension of the Nirvana sutra states, "The buddhadhātu exists in all sentient beings, held in each one's body. After sentient beings exhaust afflictions, they become buddhas."

I could go on, but we are getting into TL;DR territory


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 7:25 PM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:



Injrabodi said:
I'm aware that the original sect of Samkhya is incompatible with Buddhadharma. However Samkhya was quickly reduced to nothing more than a metaphysical framework for a very diverse set of different religions. Gaudiya Vaishnavism and Advaita Vedanta both use samkhya framework and they're almost polar opposites.

Why is modern Samkhya incompatible with Buddhadharma? Why would Avalokiteshvara teach samkhya doctrine if it's incompatible with Buddhadharma?

Malcolm wrote:
Simply put, Samkhya is incompatible with dependent origination. Samkhya is to Advaita, Saivism, etc., as Abhidharma is to Buddhadharma.

Kai lord said:
Thats why its rather strange that Adi Shankara would view Samkhya as the main threat and widely criticized it.

I suspect its the atheistic position of Samkhya that drew his ire.

Malcolm wrote:
He criticized Samkhya mainly for its position of multiple purushas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 11:11 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma, the five elements are fundamental and primary

Injrabodi said:
You're speaking about Buddhism as though it's materialist

Malcolm wrote:
Not at at all. However, there is no creator, everything is made of the five elements, and thus they not evolutes of the three gunas, as they are in Hinduism in general.

The Buddhist scheme of the five aggregates, twelve ayatanas, and eighteen dhatus is in no way commensurate or compatible with the Samkhya scheme of the 25 tattvas, or the Shaiva scheme of the 36 tattvas.

In particular, Buddhism completely rejects the notion of Purusha, whether it us the pluralist Samkhya version, the nondualist version suggested by Shankara in his commentary on the yoga sutras, or the Paramshiva version in the Shaiva expansion of the tattvas into 36 in the Shaiva tantras and explicated by Abhinavagupta, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:


Zhen Li said:
This is not "pretty safe" ground because there is plenty of evidence that these counter-myths are presented as alternative versions of the same thing. In this sense, Avalokiteśvara emanating deities from his body is the Buddhist reworking of the puruṣa myth because the puruṣa myth is the false version.

Malcolm wrote:
That might work for dogmatic fundamentalists, but not for anyone who is intellectually honest who is honestly appraising Indian literary history, meaning they don’t try to smother their cognitive dissonance in just so stories.

Zhen Li said:
There may be Śaiva reasons for supporting this doctrine, but at the end of the day, it is Buddhists and Buddhist sūtras that advocate it.

Malcolm wrote:
I guess that is why Buddhapalita rejects Samkhya first.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Basically, the Shaiva schools are based in Samkhya, that alone makes them incompatible with Buddhadharma.

Injrabodi said:
I'm aware that the original sect of Samkhya is incompatible with Buddhadharma. However Samkhya was quickly reduced to nothing more than a metaphysical framework for a very diverse set of different religions. Gaudiya Vaishnavism and Advaita Vedanta both use samkhya framework and they're almost polar opposites.

Why is modern Samkhya incompatible with Buddhadharma? Why would Avalokiteshvara teach samkhya doctrine if it's incompatible with Buddhadharma?

Malcolm wrote:
Simply put, Samkhya is incompatible with dependent origination. Samkhya is to Advaita, Saivism, etc., as Abhidharma is to Buddhadharma. That metaphysical framework alone makes these different traditions incompatible. For example, in all Samkhya presentations, the five elements are the grossest, tamasic expression of Prakrit. In Buddhadharma, the five elements are fundamental and primary, not tamasic at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 8:37 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Kai lord said:
Then You must have missed out that part where the famous Shiva avatar, Adi Shankara called followers of Madhyamaka "nihilists", many Dzogchen practitioners basically learn to use tools in Madhyamaka to refute ideas of Atman and Brahman, its baffling to see you ignoring all of that and pretend that they never happened before making the comparison.

Injrabodi said:
Advaita Vedanta is very different from the Bhairava Agamic Shaivism I've been discussing. Tantric Shaivites and Buddhists lived together, practiced together, shared teachers and scriptures together side by side for centuries. Here's a fun article on the subject if you're interested-
http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric-age-a-comparison-of-shaiva-and-buddhist-tantra-by-christopher-wallis

Kai lord said:
Still does not disprove the fact that Theravada and other Nikaya schools are closer to Vajrayana than your Advaita Vedanta. Hell, its also very likely even crypto-vedic (Hindu)  Pudgalavadin schools like Vātsīputrīya and Saṃmitīyas are closer to tantric Buddhist Dharma than Vedanta.

At any rate, is this your real purpose for creating this thread? A disguised attempt at assimilation?

Malcolm wrote:
Basically, the Shaiva schools are based in Samkhya, that alone makes them incompatible with Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Memo's from the Pure Land
Content:
laic said:
But Murti asserts that the Madhyamika is in effect a development of the "silence of the Buddha" in the face of all metaphysical questions.

Malcolm wrote:
He is quite wrong, and Madhyamaka studies have advanced light years beyond his incorrect transcendentalist take on Candrakīrti.

The only metaphysical question Madhyamakas are interested in are one's relating to svabhāva, inherent existence, and ferreting out any naive instances where it may survive in Buddhist philosophy. Otherwise, see my sig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 3:18 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Kai lord said:
Then You must have missed out that part where the famous Shiva avatar, Adi Shankara called followers of Madhyamaka "nihilists", many Dzogchen practitioners basically learn to use tools in Madhyamaka to refute ideas of Atman and Brahman, its baffling to see you ignoring all of that and pretend that they never happened before making the comparison.

Injrabodi said:
Advaita Vedanta is very different from the Bhairava Agamic Shaivism I've been discussing. Tantric Shaivites and Buddhists lived together, practiced together, shared teachers and scriptures together side by side for centuries. Here's a fun article on the subject if you're interested-
http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric-age-a-comparison-of-shaiva-and-buddhist-tantra-by-christopher-wallis

Malcolm wrote:
This person does not understand Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


stong gzugs said:
If we're both standing in the same ocean and I realize I'm wet, why would that imply that you'd also recognize you're wet? A shared basis doesn't at all logically imply that we'd have simultaneous realization, or the same result. This argument doesn't even work against Advaita, where the whole point is that Brahman doesn't act, so that's why it's vidyā of Brahman that liberates people, and not Brahman itself, and one person gaining vidyā doesn't affect any other person. No lineage that I'm aware of thinks of vidyā/rigpa as collective. The question here is about the basis.

Malcolm wrote:
Brahman has parts? A knower and a known. That will be some news to the Advaitans out there.

stong gzugs said:
I can think of any number of objections to making a hard claim that the basis is individual.


To make this claim means that all of us have individual bases which have, what, existed since the end of the last Mahapralaya and the start of the Mahakalpa? This seems rather odd. The Dzogchen "origin story" of winds stirring in the basis lends itself more to a story about an original shared basis than it does about all of the billions of human beings (much less all the others) always having had separate individual bases

Malcolm wrote:
It means mind streams have no beginning, which is just standard buddhism. According to Garab Dorje, this universe arises based on the traces of karma left over from the last universe, and as such, Dzogchen cosmology is little different than the cosmology presented in the third chapter of the Abhidharmakośabhaṣya.

stong gzugs said:
It seems far more logical that the individuality of beings comes about after marigpa, not before. This is also more consistent with the dependent origination based notion that it's ignorance/avidya that gives rise to the becoming of individual beings.

Malcolm wrote:
Even Samantabhadra possessed ignorance at first. That's the point of the account of the liberation of Samantabhadra and the delusion of sentient beings. You seem to not understand the process of the three ignorances: the ignorance identical with the cause, the connate ignorance, and the imputing ignorance. Moreover, you fail to recognize that even buddhas can fall out of buddhahood at the beginning of the mahākalpa, as is clearly described in the commentary on the Sound Tantra.

stong gzugs said:
Positing individual bases from the start creates logical conundrums too: Does this mean the number of bases is fixed upon the start of each Mahakalpa? If not, where do new bases come from if there's nothing shared? If so, doesn't this imply pre-determinism down to the level of how many kids people will have?

Malcolm wrote:
According to one opinion Longchenpa cites in the Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, sentient beings are always there latently, thus new sentient beings never come into being. According to the Buddha, the sattvadhātu never increases or decreases—this means that the number of sentient beings is fixed, and that number is unknowable to anyone but a buddha.


stong gzugs said:
but there is direct meeting of minds of the guru and shishya

Malcolm wrote:
This is a huge misunderstanding. So-called dgongs brgyud, transmission of the transcendent state, simply means that guru and disciple are dwelling in the same knowledge at the same moment. But the student has to have already understand how to be in this knowledge through the oral and symbolic transmissions. You can read more about this in the Song of the Vajra book, pg. 5-6.

stong gzugs said:
If we're applying Nagarjuna, the correct statement would be that the basis is neither individual, nor collective, nor both, nor neither. But people here are claiming there's a single correct view to hold of the four corners, which is that it's individual, and that I think is what seems off? Because, as Natan points out below, the concept of individuality isn't present when one is in rigpa.

Malcolm wrote:
The term rig pa is a contraction of the term so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye shes, i.e. a gnosis that one knows individually, this is how it is defined by Longchenpa. It's a very common buddhist term.

Beyond that, the Buddha explicitly denied the existence of transpersonal entities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Okay, I agree. But I also don't see this literal / non-literal paradigm anywhere in the sūtras. We are imposing a dichotomy that belongs in the 21st century onto something that doesn't need it and works without it.

Seeker12 said:
The meaning of 'literal' is also a bit tricky at times to pin down.

For example, the Mount Meru cosmology may be considered to be literal but not in the way that is coarsely understood by people who take it to mean that if they, say, go 100 km to the west they will find such and such island with such and such shape and such and such inhabitants with such and such attributes. That might be considered to be a misunderstanding of the intention of the teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
Vasubandhu lists these measurements very precisely. I heard HHDL once ask, "Vasubandhu, please rewrite the third chapter of the Abhidharmakośa." Why? Because it does not correspond to what we known empirically about the solar system and our planet.

Seeker12 said:
I think some things that are written in Mahayana Sutras are basically not accessible to an ordinary, mundane human mindstate.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the logical fallacy called "special pleading."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Are such accounts legitimate? Yes. Must we accept them literally? Only if one is a daft Buddhist fundamentalist.

Zhen Li said:
Okay, I agree. But I also don't see this literal / non-literal paradigm anywhere in the sūtras.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a definitive/provisional scheme that is well established.

Zhen Li said:
We are imposing a dichotomy that belongs in the 21st century onto something that doesn't need it and works without it.

Malcolm wrote:
I personally think there is considerable evidence from Indian culture in general that Indians did not take their own myths and legends literally, and repurposed them at will for didactic reasons. Examples, the stirring of the milky ocean in Hindu and Buddhist sources, and so on. Given that this is the case, I think we are on pretty safe ground when we refrain from engaging some of the charming tropes in Buddhist sutras literally. Certainly Indians were aware, for example, the origin myth of Mahākāla is just a reworking of the Saivaite myth of the destruction of Tripura, and so on. It is impossible that Indians were not aware of such continuities between Buddhists myths and legends and those of Hindus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
muni said:
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/yukhok-chatralwa/commentary-on-vajra-verses

Then, when the vajra chains of awareness, which appear as the unceasing radiance of spontaneous presence, are seen directly as objects of sensory perception, that is “seeing the dharmakāya”.

Malcolm wrote:
"When" seems to be the operative adverb here. It shows a condition. What is the condition? "Seen."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2022 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Zhen Li said:
It's fine to say that in Dzogchen you don't accept the legitimacy of certain sūtras, but this is the general Mahāyāna Buddhism forum.

Malcolm wrote:
Legitimacy is not the issue here, it is a legitimate Indian text. Whether one needs to take it literally, that is a separate question. Just because one accepts a text as legitimate does not mean one must accept it literally. For example, we do not need to accept literally the four continent world system scheme, with its Mt. Meru and flat Jambudvipa, orbited by the sun, moon, stars, and planets. Are such accounts legitimate? Yes. Must we accept them literally? Only if one is a daft Buddhist fundamentalist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2022 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:



Zhen Li said:
It's not the path, but it leads to it. Like I said, not a parallel track, but training wheels. That's why he was manifested by Avalokiteśvara and emerged from his head. This is also explained in plenty of other sūtras. Buddhas and bodhisattvas frequently manifest as Mahādeva or other deities. This doesn't mean there are paths to bodhi outside of the Eightfold Path.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't really think Siva emanated from Avalokiteśvara's head, nor the sun and moon from his eyes, and so on. It's clearly a riff on the Purusha creation myth.

Zhen Li said:
How convenient.

Malcolm wrote:
Some things are meant to be taken figuratively, some literally. The literary imagination of Indians is amazing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2022 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Jules 09 said:
- He appears be dividing and differentiating his unceasing flow of spontaneous presence



Malcolm wrote:
Tell me you don’t know anything about dzogchen without telling me you don’t know anything about dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2022 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- No. Like I already quoted:

"The moment you recognize the falsity of
delusion is called the view."

Malcolm wrote:
That’s a non sequitur

Jules 09 said:
That's because you have quoted it out of context.

The citation from DJKR was made in the discussion I was having with Kyle. Going by some of the things that he has said in this thread, it may be relevant to where he is at.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, we know that Dzongzar is a lam rim pa. You have no idea where Kyle is at, BTW.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2022 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:



Zhen Li said:
Yes, the point of course is not that Śaivism can be practiced as a kind of parallel track that gets to the same goal, but rather as a kind of training wheels for accepting the Saddharma

Malcolm wrote:
"Excluded from the path" is means excluded. I don't see anything ambiguous about this.

Zhen Li said:
It's not the path, but it leads to it. Like I said, not a parallel track, but training wheels. That's why he was manifested by Avalokiteśvara and emerged from his head. This is also explained in plenty of other sūtras. Buddhas and bodhisattvas frequently manifest as Mahādeva or other deities. This doesn't mean there are paths to bodhi outside of the Eightfold Path.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't really think Siva emanated from Avalokiteśvara's head, nor the sun and moon from his eyes, and so on. It's clearly a riff on the Purusha creation myth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2022 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
The salient point is that Avalokiteśvara states that Saivism will not bring liberation:

‘Maheśvara, in the kaliyuga, when beings have bad natures, you will be declared to be the primal deity who is the creator, the maker. All those beings will be excluded from the path to enlightenment.

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh116.html?id=&part=#UT22084-051-004-68

Seeker12 said:
Until beings give up wrong views, they will not realize the nature of mind and liberation. Nonetheless, a veiled manifestation of enlightened intent may mature beings who do not yet have sufficient merit towards that end, and it may be that some other beings have sufficient clarity of discernment to know that such a veiled manifestation is, in fact, a manifestation of enlightened intent from the beginning.

Zhen Li said:
Yes, the point of course is not that Śaivism can be practiced as a kind of parallel track that gets to the same goal, but rather as a kind of training wheels for accepting the Saddharma

Malcolm wrote:
"Excluded from the path" is means excluded. I don't see anything ambiguous about this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2022 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:



Kai lord said:
Its similar to how Mahakala (another form of Shiva)

Malcolm wrote:
Mahākāla is not a form of Śiva at all.

The origin story for Mahākāla and Śrīdevi is found in the Ḍākinī-agnijihva-jvalā-tantra.

Mahākāla and Śrīdevi are the children of Mahādeva and Umadevi, according to this tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2022 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:


Zhen Li said:
It makes no sense to say Śiva is not Avalokiteśvara because saṃkhya doesn't make sense from the perspective of prasangika madhyāmika.

Malcolm wrote:
Siva is not Avalokitśvara, since the former is subdued by the latter in the Karandavyuha.

Zhen Li said:
He is clearly stated to be manifested by Avalokitesvara and created by him (from his forehead). Subsumed... or exumed...

Malcolm wrote:
The salient point is that Avalokiteśvara states that Saivism will not bring liberation:

‘Maheśvara, in the kaliyuga, when beings have bad natures, you will be declared to be the primal deity who is the creator, the maker. All those beings will be excluded from the path to enlightenment.

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh116.html?id=&part=#UT22084-051-004-68


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Jules 09 said:
- Ho Ho! Agreed.
And therefore the learned ones may do well to aspire, to one day be able to throw their intellectual knowledge of Dharma in the trash.

"A knife becomes sharp as the result of two exhaustions — the exhaustion of the sharpening stone and the exhaustion of the metal. In the same way, enlightenment is the result of the exhaustion of obscurations and the exhaustion of the antidote of the obscurations. Ultimately one must abandon the path to enlightenment. If you still define yourself as a buddhist, you are not a buddha yet."

- Dzongsar Khyentse,
(What Makes You Not a Buddhist)

Malcolm wrote:
You think there are obscurations and antidotes to exhaust? That’s surprising, as that puts you squarely in the lam rim camp.

Jules 09 said:
- No. Like I already quoted:

"The moment you recognize the falsity of
delusion is called the view."

Malcolm wrote:
That’s a non sequitur


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 7:27 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:







Jules 09 said:
Yes, as Tsele Natsok Rangdrol said in The Heart of the Matter:

" The moment you recognize the falsity of 
delusion is called the view."

( Heart Lamp, p.108.)

krodha said:
Indeed. It is all false. Delusion is the influencing factor that causes phenomena, including the self, to seem concrete and substantial. Complete knowledge of the false nature of dharmas is dharmakāya, which is inversely, simply the total elimination of delusion.

The Saddharmapundarika Sūtra states:

If no phenomena are perceived at all, 
that is the great wisdom that perceives
the whole dharmakāya.

Jules 09 said:
- Ho Ho! Agreed.
And therefore the learned ones may do well to aspire, to one day be able to throw their intellectual knowledge of Dharma in the trash.

"A knife becomes sharp as the result of two exhaustions — the exhaustion of the sharpening stone and the exhaustion of the metal. In the same way, enlightenment is the result of the exhaustion of obscurations and the exhaustion of the antidote of the obscurations. Ultimately one must abandon the path to enlightenment. If you still define yourself as a buddhist, you are not a buddha yet."

- Dzongsar Khyentse,
(What Makes You Not a Buddhist)

Malcolm wrote:
You think there are obscurations and antidotes to exhaust? That’s surprising, as that puts you squarely in the lam rim camp.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Natan said:
Sure. That's what the dhyanas aka jhanas are, incomplete realizations. But if Vimalamitra wanted to say you must understand the result is an individual consciousness in contrast to the way it is described in the Guhyagarbha Tantra chapter 1 he most certainly would have. Also the goal is nothing to do with individual consciousness. It's beyond one and many and so forth.

Malcolm wrote:
The result is for an individual mind, because not everyone attains buddhahood at the same time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:


laic said:
Hi again, I'd agree that "views" should be for crossing over, not for grasping as per the famous parable of the raft, yet I detect a great deal of "grasping" at views (even complete identification with) in others which in my opinion belies the import of the parable.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha's path begins with right view:

"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view...

And already cited:

[Kaccayana:] "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

[The Buddha:] "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view."

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
Injrabodi said:
From the typical Shaiva perspective, atman is the ground of reality and as such does not move. Atman is the center and the universe revolves around it.

Malcolm wrote:
The typical [Kashmiri] Shaiva perspective is realist. Shiva is everything, and everything is real.

Buddhism, including Dzogchen, in toto is anti-foundationalist, anti-realist.

Injrabodi said:
You should know as well as I do that Hinduism is an umbrella term for an extremely wide variety of different religions, as is the term Buddhism. For just one example "Buddhist" Dzogchen has far more in common with Kashmiri Shaivism than it does with "Buddhist" Theravada.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen has nothing in common with Trika in any of its forms. Some irresponsible people have made such claims, but they just demonstrate their ignorance of both systems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
That's a copout and not what the Buddha intended. The Buddha had a position, it's called "dependent origination." A view of a truly existent self is not compatible with that position, that is why the Buddha rejected such a "self."

laic said:
Hello again. No, in context it is not a copout. From my perspective you have not truly engaged with the totality of my of my posts.

Malcolm wrote:
Total copout. To claim the Buddha took no positions whatsoever is a false claim. To state that the Buddha refused to answer certain questions, which he certainly did refuse to do, is not commensurate with the Buddha refusing to take any position at all, which is what you've asserted:
Hence the Middle Way, which is not a mid-position between two extremes, but more a "no-position" that supercedes all positions. Therefore a radical refusal to affirm any particular side.
This is an incorrect characterization of the Buddha's middle way, and it is in fact Sānjaya Bellatthaputta's point of view, not the Buddha's, which I produced for you from the Samaññaphala Sutta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
You are asserting there is some other thing to be designated a self other than the five aggregates that constitute a person? If you can't point out what that is, you are making a basic error. The Buddha taught both a self and nonself. He taught there was a conventional self imputed on the aggregates, but denied there was a permanent self which transmigrated, ala the Upanishads. This is just Buddhism 101. It's amazing to me that Buddhists can be Buddhists for years and still be confused on this point.

laic said:
Hi Malcolm, I am not asserting anything. That is the point.


Malcolm wrote:
That's a copout and not what the Buddha intended. The Buddha had a position, it's called "dependent origination." A view of a truly existent self is not compatible with that position, that is why the Buddha rejected such a "self."

You seem to be confusing the Buddha with Sañjaya Belatthaputta: "When this was said, Sañjaya Belatthaputta said to me, 'If you ask me if there exists another world [after death], if I thought that there exists another world, would I declare that to you? I don't think so. I don't think in that way. I don't think otherwise. I don't think not. I don't think not not. If you asked me if there isn't another world... both is and isn't... neither is nor isn't... if there are beings who transmigrate... if there aren't... both are and aren't... neither are nor aren't... if the Tathagata exists after death... doesn't... both... neither exists nor doesn't exist after death, would I declare that to you? I don't think so. I don't think in that way. I don't think otherwise. I don't think not. I don't think not not.'


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
This is an error... Etc etc

Since there is no person designated on anything other than the five aggregates, the Buddha definitely taught that there is no self.

laic said:
Then we disagree, which is fine.

Malcolm wrote:
You are asserting there is some other thing to be designated a self other than the five aggregates that constitute a person? If you can't point out what that is, you are making a basic error. The Buddha taught both a self and nonself. He taught there was a conventional self imputed on the aggregates, but denied there was a permanent self which transmigrated, ala the Upanishads. This is just Buddhism 101. It's amazing to me that Buddhists can be Buddhists for years and still be confused on this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:
laic said:
Interesting reading through. As I understand it, the "silence of the Buddha" is quite relevant here. His refusal to answer metaphysical questions. Eternalism v annihilationism etc etc.

Malcolm wrote:
He did not refuse to answer questions on this score.

laic said:
Although the Dharma is often associated with "becoming" as opposed to "being", with anatta as opposed to atman, in fact the Madhyamika goes beyond all such dichotomies. Hence the Middle Way, which is not a mid-position between two extremes, but more a "no-position" that supercedes all positions. Therefore a radical refusal to affirm any particular side.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an error-- Madhyamaka refuses accept any position which posits inherent existence.

laic said:
One basic text that opens the way to the Madhymika position is the Theravada Majjhima Nikaya 63. A small section, where a would be follower of the Buddha objects to the Buddha's refusal to commit to any definitive answers:

These speculative views have been left undeclared by the Blessed One, set aside and rejected by him, namely: ‘the world is eternal’ and ‘the world is not eternal’; ‘the world is finite’ and ‘the world is infinite’; ‘the soul is the same as the body’ and ‘the soul is one thing and the body another’; and ‘after death a Tathāgata exists’ and ‘after death a Tathāgata does not exist’ and ‘after death a Tathāgata both exists and does not exist’ and ‘after death a Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist.’ The Blessed One does not declare these to me, and I do not approve of and accept the fact that he does not declare these to me......

Malcolm wrote:
The more relevant passage is the following:

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html

This is only the passage actually cited by Nāgārjuna in the MMK.

As for his position on a self:
"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

"Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...

"Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html

Since there is no person designated on anything other than the five aggregates, the Buddha definitely taught that there is no self.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Natan said:
The first quote doesn't support the point. One's mind... Big deal. Confirmed to be a specific consciousness? What specific consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
If course it supports the point...an individual consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2022 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:


Zhen Li said:
It makes no sense to say Śiva is not Avalokiteśvara because saṃkhya doesn't make sense from the perspective of prasangika madhyāmika.

Malcolm wrote:
Siva is not Avalokitśvara, since the former is subdued by the latter in the Karandavyuha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2022 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:


curtstein said:
Most of the time, maybe even nearly all of the time, the Buddhist critique of "Atman" ends up just being a straw-man argument (that is, an argument against a purported viewpoint that no actual persons subscribe to).

Malcolm wrote:
Perfect example of a specious objection.

Have you actually studied Samkhya, Yoga, Advaita, etc, with a Hindu teacher? Well I have, and and the Buddhist critiques of "atman," "iśvara," "puruśa," etc., are spot on.

As far as Taoism and Confucism goes, these trends at "harmonizing" principally arise from Chinese cultural anxiety over their native philosophical/ethical traditions (Daoism and Confucism) being discarded in favor of a foreign one (Buddhism).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2022 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Sharp said:
You would not call the space within or without each pot a generic characteristic.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course you would, since space, whether inside or outside a pot, isn't an existent thing. It's an purely abstraction, like emptiness.

What is the ultimate realization of emptiness called? "Dharmakāya," is the dharmakāya something which exists? No more than emptiness "exists."  Dharmakāya, in Dzogchen teachings, is just the empty aspect of the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2022 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Natan said:
Show me something from Guhyagarbha on point or even Longchenpa's commentary.

stong gzugs said:
Is it true that the strong claim being made here that the basis must be personal (and all other views are a break of samaya) is only based on contemporary teachers? Is the statement not made clearly by any of the tantras or even Longchenpa's commentary? I haven't seen anyone respond to your gauntlet here with a definitive quote. If it's so dangerous of a wrong view, you'd expect some canonical sources to say so unequivocally. Does anyone have such a statement?

Natan said:
I'm waiting for that as well.

Malcolm wrote:
I already quoted Vimalamitra's statement. So here it is again:

The meaning is that an inestimablecollection of kāyas and pristine consciousnesses exist in a single body
with pure endowments and leisures...As such, because the basis, one’s unfabricated mind (rang sems ma bcos pa), arose as the essence of the sole reality, there is no need to search elsewhere for the place, etc.
--Buddhahood in this life, pg. 41.

And in the Commentary on the String of Pearls Tantra we find:

Since at the time of natural perfection the so-called basis is confirmed to be generic and at the time of compassion confirmed to be a specific consciousness, all the causes and conditions of saṃsāra are definitely confirmed.

-- Self-Liberated Vidyā Tantra, pg. 104.


All this other speculation is a waste of time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2022 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Will I gain Buddhist merit as a Hindu?
Content:


Injrabodi said:
I bring this up now, because I am a devotee of Shiva and I wonder if my worship of Shiva qualifies as worshipping all of the Buddhas.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 1st, 2022 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Hurah for Merigar 2
Content:
oldbob said:
Dear all,

Hurrah for Merigar!!!

https://www.merigar.it/en/courses-and-events/the-practice-of-shine/

This is a really important teaching from Merigar, on November 18th, that should be available in Zoom with translation into all appropriate languages, and at least into English and Russian.  Currently this retreat is billed as being presented in Italian only. There is sufficient time left to identify translators and Zoom administrators.

This very useful teaching is a fundamental practice of the Dzogchen Transmission Lineage and should be freely and openly available to everyone.

Malcolm wrote:
Ahem, not open the public.

oldbob said:
Only for those who have received the Transmission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 1st, 2022 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Natan said:
This is from their analytical tradition not the meditation tradition. I don't think they say the dharmakaya and rupakaya arising in the Bardo is dependently arising, or buddhahood would be compound and impermanent.

Malcolm wrote:
They maintain buddhahood is compounded, but that is permanent because the causes for it are inexhaustible. They follow Kamalashila, who asserts omniscience must arise from a cause.

As far as Tsongkhapa's tantric presentation of the kāyas, he asserts the sambhogakāya is composed of the wind and mind, and serves as a support for the dharmakāya, the objective clear light, which he defines as noncomposite, see page 560 in A Lamp to Illuminate the Five Stages.

Kai lord said:
Actually I always thought that Tsongkhapa followed Haribhadra's four kayas scheme, (whom he praised a lot for focusing on relative truth) in which the wisdom aspect of Dharmakaya, jnanakaya or gnosis, is a collection of pure dharmas like mental activities,  etc, and is represented by the subjective subtle clear light of mind.

While empty aspect of dharmakaya, the essence body, is the objective clear light. Both subjective and objective clear light bend and merge into each other like water to water during the path of seeing to become dharmakaya. No?

Malcolm wrote:
Read the passage above for how he treats this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 1st, 2022 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Natan said:
This is from their analytical tradition not the meditation tradition. I don't think they say the dharmakaya and rupakaya arising in the Bardo is dependently arising, or buddhahood would be compound and impermanent.

Malcolm wrote:
They maintain buddhahood is compounded, but that is permanent because the causes for it are inexhaustible. They follow Kamalashila, who asserts omniscience must arise from a cause.

As far as Tsongkhapa's tantric presentation of the kāyas, he asserts the sambhogakāya is composed of the wind and mind, and serves as a support for the dharmakāya, the objective clear light, which he defines as noncomposite, see page 560 in A Lamp to Illuminate the Five Stages.

Natan said:
He's also saying they are one entity, and the form body is non-dual. They just have a unique description style. This description does not change how they practice which bears little difference to Kagyu.

Malcolm wrote:
The main point is that the subjective clear light mind is compounded in the Geluk scheme.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 1st, 2022 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Natan said:
This is from their analytical tradition not the meditation tradition. I don't think they say the dharmakaya and rupakaya arising in the Bardo is dependently arising, or buddhahood would be compound and impermanent.

Malcolm wrote:
They maintain buddhahood is compounded, but that is permanent because the causes for it are inexhaustible. They follow Kamalashila, who asserts omniscience must arise from a cause.

As far as Tsongkhapa's tantric presentation of the kāyas, he asserts the sambhogakāya is composed of the wind and mind, and serves as a support for the dharmakāya, the objective clear light, which he defines as noncomposite, see page 560 in A Lamp to Illuminate the Five Stages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2022 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Natan said:
I don't think he's saying Buddhanature is composed of moments. It's the samsaric composite that does that..

Malcolm wrote:
The Geluk view is that buddhanature is just the absence of inherent existence, and in that order to see that, one must have access to the most subtle mind. But this subtle mind is still a mind in the Geluk system and thus, it is still dependently originated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2022 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Natan said:
HHDL explains this subtle mind and wind "exists." Really, how can one possibly make any designations in a completion stage samadhi with only these clear light appearances? All the designations come later. The experience whatever it is is undeniable.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it exists conventionally, designated on its parts.  No Gelukpa, and HHDL is utterly committed to Tsongkhapa’s interpretation of Vajrayana dharma, would ever assert the subtle mind of clear light existed inherently.

Natan said:
There are no parts. That's the point. The bindu and wind are not composite.

"This subtle body and subtle mind are seen as a single entity that
has two facets.... These two inextricably conjoined qualities are regarded, in Highest
Yoga Tantra, as the ultimate nature of a person and are identified
as buddha nature, the essential or actual nature of mind."

If it's the Buddhanature it cannot have parts. And I never said anything about inherent existence which is a negation of materiality.

Malcolm wrote:
The parts here is the fact that this continuum, according to HHDL, is composed of moments, hence it it permanent in that it is a continuum, impermanent in that the continuum is composed of moments. Thus is just standard Geluk view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2022 at 8:13 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:




futerko said:
Dzogchen the self-perfected state, p. 53
"The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals, whether they are aware of it or not, whether they are enlightened or in transmigration."

Does this not suggest the base qua universal is common to all consciousnesses and therefore a priori the condition of any experience?

Malcolm wrote:
We can certainly say that emptiness is part of the basis. But in reality, of the three parts of the basis, essence, nature, and compassion, the commentary on the String of Pearls defines the first two as universals, and the last as the instantiation of one's own consciousness. So, sticking with Vimalamitra.

futerko said:
So, in regard to the universal status of both essence and nature, does it therefore follow that they are mere abstractions?

Malcolm wrote:
They are samanya lakṣanas, so yes. Emptiness isn't something which exists, so it has to be an abstraction; clarity is also just a isolate, so it is also an abstraction. The only thing that isn't abstract here is compassion, rig pa, which has the characteristics of emptiness and clarity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2022 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
futerko said:
The unconditioned nature of the base

Malcolm wrote:
The basis is just your own consciousness. Accept it and move on.


futerko said:
Dzogchen the self-perfected state, p. 53
"The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals, whether they are aware of it or not, whether they are enlightened or in transmigration."

Does this not suggest the base qua universal is common to all consciousnesses and therefore a priori the condition of any experience?

Malcolm wrote:
We can certainly say that emptiness is part of the basis. But in reality, of the three parts of the basis, essence, nature, and compassion, the commentary on the String of Pearls defines the first two as universals, and the last as the instantiation of one's own consciousness. So, sticking with Vimalamitra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2022 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
futerko said:
The unconditioned nature of the base

Malcolm wrote:
The basis is just your own consciousness. Accept it and move on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2022 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
futerko said:
But it is not definitive [that buddhahood only implies a cleansed mind] because there is still buddhahood that consists in the spontaneously present ground. Thus [this cleansed mind] is not the actual true [buddhahood] either. And although that which should be purified may have been cleared away (sangs), that [mind] to be purified which has been cleared away is not [itself] the buddha. And thus buddhahood does not derive from mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhahood is never sems. Sems is a product of the imputing ignorance. Nevertheless, Vimalamitra writes:
As such, because the basis, one’s unfabricated mind (rang sems ma bcos pa), arose as the essence of the sole reality, there is no need to search elsewhere for the place, etc. Thus, that is called self-originated pristine consciousness.
Also ChNN stated many times each person has their own basis. Why people continue to remain confused about this is beyond me


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2022 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
futerko said:
yes, I am even more confused by this. On the one hand you seem to be saying that all universals are mere abstractions from particular instances, but surely the very idea of primordial nature is that it is a priori?

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.

The term "ye gzhi," primordial basis, just refers to nature of the mind prior to recognition/conceptualization. This is why in any moment, we can wake up according to the six special features of Samantabhadra's liberation. In every moment it exists prior to buddhas or sentient beings, because in every moment we can either wake up or continue in ignorance. If someone thinks this refers to an actual event in time, they have already defeated the idea that the primordial state is beyond time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2022 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


futerko said:
Of course, I take this to be Dharmakirti's point versus Platonic "forms", but I think the nature of mind is a special instance.

Malcolm wrote:
You are mistaken. There are no exceptions to nominalism in Buddhadharma, not even in Dzogchen.

futerko said:
One cannot directly experience "treeness" but in the case of mind there is the claim that one can directly realise the universal.

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot experience "treeness" at all. It is a mere abstraction.

One's mind essence cannot be realized without one's mind. In other words, clarity and emptiness, the mind essence, are isolates of a given mind, in the same way in water, limpidity, wetness, and coolness are isolates, particulars, and not universals, which is why the nature of the mind can be realized.


I think you are bit confused about universals and particulars, especially with respect to Dzogchen teachings.


futerko said:
When ChNN writes, "...the fundamentally pure base of all existence, both at the universal and the individual levels." how then do we conceive of the relationship between the particular and the universal?

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness, ka dag, is a characteristic of all phenomena. The meaning here is no different than Prajñāpāramita.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2022 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
futerko said:
Therefore, in Dzogchen, mind is in time and space whereas the nature of mind is beyond time and space

Malcolm wrote:
That of course is impossible. This is like saying that after fire burns out, there is still heat.

futerko said:
It seems to me fairly uncontentious to say that the nature of fire remains unchanged regardless of the presence of heat or not. The phrase "beyond time" is not my innovation, eg;

Malcolm wrote:
There is no nature of fire when there is no fire.

futerko said:
"In the Dzogchen teachings, it is considered that the primordial state, which is beyond time, and beyond creation and destruction, is the fundamentally pure base of all existence, both at the universal and the individual levels."

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu; The Crystal And The Way Of Light: Sutra, Tantra And Dzogchen. (Kindle Locations 694-696).

and in Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State, p.53
"It is a condition which is beyond time, beyond dualism, pure and perfect like the nature of the mirror."

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, ka dag, emptiness free from extremes, is beyond time, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2022 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Natan said:
That's not what he says. He says this subtle mind is the ultimate nature of a person and is called Buddhanature. He goes on to explain this is what accounts for the continuity of consciousness over the rebirths.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but it still has no-inherent existence, and thus it is still just a designation. This just how the Geluks explain thing.

Natan said:
HHDL explains this subtle mind and wind "exists." Really, how can one possibly make any designations in a completion stage samadhi with only these clear light appearances? All the designations come later. The experience whatever it is is undeniable.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it exists conventionally, designated on its parts.  No Gelukpa, and HHDL is utterly committed to Tsongkhapa’s interpretation of Vajrayana dharma, would ever assert the subtle mind of clear light existed inherently.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2022 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
futerko said:
Therefore, in Dzogchen, mind is in time and space whereas the nature of mind is beyond time and space

Malcolm wrote:
That of course is impossible. This is like saying that after fire burns out, there is still heat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2022 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Passing By said:
I have also heard HEGR say many times "Mind pervades all samsara and nirvana"

Malcolm wrote:
Samsara and nirvana are personal phenomena. If they weren't, neither would be possible.

Passing By said:
"your mind and all Buddhas' minds are one and nondual"


Malcolm wrote:
This is liable to be sorely misunderstood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2022 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Natan said:
That's not what he says. He says this subtle mind is the ultimate nature of a person and is called Buddhanature. He goes on to explain this is what accounts for the continuity of consciousness over the rebirths.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but it still has no-inherent existence, and thus it is still just a designation. This just how the Geluks explain thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2022 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:


Miorita said:
A Turkish expression yet says that the fish rots from the head.

Malcolm wrote:
Everyone has that expression.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2022 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Natan said:
The point is not what is the Buddhanature or what ChNN said. But that GR, who is highly esteemed in TB, said and believes. There is clearly a split on this topic among important lamas in TB.

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks, I'll stick with the Buddha and ChNN.

Natan said:
Well.. you know it's slightly bait and switch to quote hinayana as fundamental to Vajrayana, because tantras and commentaries say things that those guys could never accept. For example Guhyagarbha says Buddhanature is permanent, the Kayas are permanent. In fact, in his preface to the Bardo Thodrol HHDL says the Bindu of subtle clear light is a self.

"Now, when we look at this interdependence of mental and physi-
cal constituents from the perspective of Highest Yoga Tantra, 4
there are two concepts of a person. One is the temporary person
or self, that is as we exist at the moment, and this is labelled on
the basis of our coarse or gross physical body and conditioned
mind, and, at the same time, there is a subtle person or self which
is designated in dependence on the subtle hody and subtle mind.
This subtle body and subtle mind are seen as a single entity that
has two facets."... [Awareness and wind.]

We have to be specific about what we are discussing, negating and distinguishing, but also not take them too far.

Malcolm wrote:
"there is a subtle person or self which  is designated in dependence on the subtle hody and subtle mind."

Which means this subtle self is as unreal as the coarse self imputed on the coarse aggregates, since it is a designation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2022 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: Can it get any worse?
Content:



PeterC said:
It is ultimately self-defeating.  It actually positions the environmentalists as the unreasonable and irrational parties, making it easier for their demands to be ignored.  But some of the other public protests recently did make me wonder.  When those protestors threw soup over Van Gogh's Sunflowers in the UK, they were met with widespread condemnation and disapproval - this was vandalism, paintings have nothing to do with climate change, this isn't the way to advance the discussion, etc.  To which a few people responded - but this has got you talking about it, and if it's not the way to advance the discussion, then what is?  There probably is a role for activism in raising peoples' awareness, but I'm just not sure how it should be done without making the green movement look crazy and irresponsible.  Throwing soup over paintings isn't it, though.


Malcolm wrote:
Come on, you think glueing your head to a Vermeer isn't going to win hearts and minds?

Kim O'Hara said:
Well, if it gets the attention of 100,000 people and one in a hundred of them says, "Wow! If it's that serious I should do something!" then you've won 1,000 hearts and minds you would have taken years to attract with quieter actions.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not considered the contrary case. If it gets the attention of 100k people, wins the heart and minds of 1k, but turns off 10k, I’d say your tactics are counterproductive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2022 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: Can it get any worse?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The deep green resistance approach, which is based on a whole host of bad ideas won't work. Green parties in too many places become coopted by tankies, so also a lot of bad ideas posing under the banner of ten really good ones. The eco fascist approach...well, do I even have to say anything?

PeterC said:
It is ultimately self-defeating.  It actually positions the environmentalists as the unreasonable and irrational parties, making it easier for their demands to be ignored.  But some of the other public protests recently did make me wonder.  When those protestors threw soup over Van Gogh's Sunflowers in the UK, they were met with widespread condemnation and disapproval - this was vandalism, paintings have nothing to do with climate change, this isn't the way to advance the discussion, etc.  To which a few people responded - but this has got you talking about it, and if it's not the way to advance the discussion, then what is?  There probably is a role for activism in raising peoples' awareness, but I'm just not sure how it should be done without making the green movement look crazy and irresponsible.  Throwing soup over paintings isn't it, though.


Malcolm wrote:
Come on, you think glueing your head to a Vermeer isn't going to win hearts and minds?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2022 at 9:35 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I forgot to mention, this can only be accomplished by liberal democracies. Other forms of government are just too liable to corruption for any of these measures to succeed.

Kim O'Hara said:
I think that's putting it too strongly. "Liable to corruption" does not equal "corrupt" and "liberal democracies" can be somewhat corrupt (and often are).
Plato (if I remember correctly) proposed that a benevolent dictatorship was the best form of government. It can certainly be effective and can change policies far more quickly than democracies, which is important when time is so short.
The problem with dictatorships, of course, is in ensuring that they are benevolent.

And in a crisis, working well with everyone (at least in the short term) is the best option.

Malcolm wrote:
We have the most economic power. It starts ands with us.


Kim O'Hara said:
The one which came to my mind first is the alliance between the US and Stalinist Russia  - https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/time/wwii/104430.htm

Malcolm wrote:
You mean where we saved Russia's ass. Well, that relationship was forged not just by the US, that was US, England, and the USSR, with the USSR being the junior partner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2022 at 6:25 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Natan said:
This would be impossible to lessen someone else's suffering unless there's a shared basis.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is impossible because there is no "shared basis."

The Buddha said famously:

One cannot wash away misdeeds, 
nor remove suffering with the hand,
nor can I hand you liberation, 
but I can show you a path,

With all due respect to Garchen, ChNN made it extremely clear everyone has their own basis, their own primordial state. He made this point repeatedly because otherwise people deviate into Advaita, etc.

Natan said:
The point is not what is the Buddhanature or what ChNN said. But that GR, who is highly esteemed in TB, said and believes. There is clearly a split on this topic among important lamas in TB.

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks, I'll stick with the Buddha and ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2022 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: John Myrdhin Reynolds (aka Vajranatha)
Content:
Dragpo said:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=9028

And

https://vajranatha.com/john-myrdhin-reynolds/

in 1974 in Kalimpong he received ordination from HH Dudjom Rinpoche as a Ngakpa or Buddhist Tantric Yogin of the Nyingmapa order, receiving the name Vajranatha (Rigdzin Dorje Gonpo). With the inspiration and permission of His Holiness, he began in-depth research into the Ngakpa tradition of Tibetan Buddhism stemming from Guru Padmasambhava and Nubchen Sangye Yeshe in the 8th century of our era.

Malcolm wrote:
Dorje Gonpo is also a common Tibetan name, as is Rigzin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2022 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Natan said:
This would be impossible to lessen someone else's suffering unless there's a shared basis.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is impossible because there is no "shared basis."

The Buddha said famously:

One cannot wash away misdeeds, 
nor remove suffering with the hand,
nor can I hand you liberation, 
but I can show you a path,

With all due respect to Garchen, ChNN made it extremely clear everyone has their own basis, their own primordial state. He made this point repeatedly because otherwise people deviate into Advaita, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2022 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Jules 09 said:
- We are all here, right now; in this same "Basic space" (dharmadhatu).

...

Basic space is the absence of mental constructs,

Malcolm wrote:
The term "dharmadhātu" has many meanings depending context, here it merely refers to spros bral, freedom from proliferation, i.e. emptiness free from extremes. So if you want to say buddhanature is emptiness, that's fine.

But again, this is merely an abstraction, like space.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Kai lord said:
Its actually Yangdak Heruka that brought the accomplishment. From his biography:



Still its better for us to view both practices of Yangdak Heruka and Vajrakilaya as indispensable. The latter is needed to remove, outer, inner and secret obstacles to one's practices.

Passing By said:
Some sources say Vajrakila, some say Kila in combination with Yangdak. Either way, both of those are not purely Mahayoga only practices. Either way I don't think you can say Guru Rinpoche did not do much Anuyoga considering his own commentary on Vajrakila features Anuyoga heavily.

His Kila commentary, (bum nag), is kama from Yeshe Tsogyel BTW so it's one of the earliest works. It really seems the the inner tantras weren't so clearly separated back then and everything was generally practised together.

Kai lord said:
If His Vajrakilaya practice was the exact same one from the Khon tradition, then yes its Anuyoga but it also does not have much completion stage practices, so its likely to be practicsed together with the Yangdag.

I'm fine with Yangdag being viewed as anuyoga. Sakya Trichen did say that Yangdag is very similar to Hevajra, so there is no need to do both practices. That would necessarily imply that mother tantras like Hevajra can be treated like an anuyoga after all.


Plus all their results are reversible, seems like they share more similarities than distinctions

Malcolm wrote:
From the point of view of Dzogchen,  all nine yanas have deviations. That does not mean that they are not quite distinct. Your statement is like saying all quadrupeds are more alike than distinct because they not bipeds.

Kai lord said:
What I meant is that those differences are overstated. Mahasukhakaya is what that differs the result of Anu from Maha. Is there a need for additional Buddhahood bhumis on the top of 13th Bhumi, Vajradhara, just because of that?

Malcolm wrote:
There is the uttarajñāna bhumi, #16, the so called ye shes bla ma. so apparently, but this is still all nine yānas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Passing By said:
TBF, plenty of the Dzogchen guruyogas including nyingthik level ones involve visualization and dissolution....The same as you would do in Anuyoga yidam practice. So it leads to the same place in the end, even if the visualization is just a tool to introduce the view to oneself. Difference being that Anuyoga still has conceptualization about the view where Dzogchen does not etc. although I'm not sure if that's a fair way to characterize Anuyoga also....

Kai lord said:
Its rather unfortunate that among the three inner tantras, anuyoga is least discussed, taught and written upon by a significant amount. This lack of emphasis might be attributed to Nyingmapa following the footsteps of Guru Rinpoche whose legendary biography clearly stated that He practiced Mahayoga to attain the vidyadhara of the great seal before entering the path of Dzogchen/Atiyoga to realize vidyadhara of spontaneous accomplishment. Thereby bypassing Anuyoga completely, influencing future generations of practitioners to view Anuyoga as either optional  or supportive practices.

Of course, other factors might be in play.


Passing By said:
Guru Rinpoche IIRC attained his realization through Vajrakilaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, he attained the mahamudra vidyadhara level through Kilaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Kai lord said:
Plus all their results are reversible, seems like they share more similarities than distinctions

Malcolm wrote:
From the point of view of Dzogchen,  all nine yanas have deviations. That does not mean that they are not quite distinct. Your statement is like saying all quadrupeds are more alike than distinct because they not bipeds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 9:22 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I forgot to mention, this can only be accomplished by liberal democracies. Other forms of government are just too liable to corruption for any of these measures to succeed. Why? Liberal democracies have a proven track record of being able to work well with each other in response to crisis. And we are indeed in a crisis.




Kim O'Hara said:
In all of this, KS Robinson's Ministry for the Future is still the best road-map I've come across.

Can we do it? As you say, it's a tall order.


Kim


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 7:03 AM
Title: Re: Can it get any worse?
Content:
PeterC said:
[
Where can I find this modern global community?  Where does it get together and set rules for itself, decide what is moral and immoral?  Where did it gather in the 19th century?  Where was the meeting of the Capitalists held where they devised their evil plot to subjugate the rest of the world?

Malcolm wrote:
“Capitalism” in this context, is a Marxist conspiracy theory, as you correctly point out.

But the response you are likely to get will range from the Trilateral  comission to Davos, etc.

Kim O'Hara said:
It's okay, Malcolm - forget it. Peter misconstrued the point I was making.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
The point is markets, and how they are managed globally. Trying to control market behavior with draconian measures, or conversely unleashing them entirely (as Truss found out) results in social chaos.

We are in the odd predicament of having to figure out how to a) maintain global social stability b) economic stability, and c) political stability while dealing with an increasingly chaotic climate at the same time we are trying to transition to sustainable, widely distributable, reliable alternative sources of energy and feed a world of 8+ billion. Our success will depend on research, education, international cooperation, and a good amount of luck.

The deep green resistance approach, which is based on a whole host of bad ideas won't work. Green parties in too many places become coopted by tankies, so also a lot of bad ideas posing under the banner of ten really good ones. The eco fascist approach...well, do I even have to say anything?

So, the only way to approach this is through the markets. If as you claim, all of this is a result of how the markets have been allowed to behave since the 1850's, I will agree. So we have to change how markets behave. Tall order, can it be done? We will see.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Kai lord said:
Its rather unfortunate that among the three inner tantras, anuyoga is least discussed, taught and written upon by a significant amount.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not actually the case. It is written about in great detail. It is just that these writings mainly concern the empowerment.

Kai lord said:
This lack of emphasis might be attributed to Nyingmapa following the footsteps of Guru Rinpoche whose legendary biography clearly stated that He practiced Mahayoga to attain the vidyadhara of the great seal before entering the path of Dzogchen/Atiyoga to realize vidyadhara of spontaneous accomplishment. Thereby bypassing Anuyoga completely, influencing future generations of practitioners to view Anuyoga as either optional  or supportive practices.

Malcolm wrote:
He did not bypass anuyoga. He writes about it in Rosary of Intimate Instructions, etc. He didn't bring those tantras to Tibet, just as he did not bring the 17 tantras to Tibet.

Kai lord said:
Yes post meditation,

Malcolm wrote:
Though the theory is different, instant creation exists in Cakrasamvara. For example, Heruka Body Mandala, but that's about it.

Kai lord said:
While its common to see many people and some texts using instantaneous generation of mandala and deity as one of the key differences between Mahayoga and Anuyoga, I find that distinction to be rather trivial TBH because if one practices generation stage of HYT diligently and reaching certain degree of mastery and familiarly, naturally, his/her visualization will reach a level of clarity and stability that allow the instantaneous generation of both mandala and deities without much effort just as depicted in Anuyoga.

Malcolm wrote:
The difference is the understanding of the basis, not the actual method.

Kai lord said:
So the real key differences between Maha and Anu lie in the view and emphasis on dzogrim practices like some mother tantras.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the difference lies in the basis of purification, the purifier, and result. The basis of purification in Sarma/Mahayoga is the impure aggregates, etc., The basis of purification of Anuyoga is ye shes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Passing By said:
TBF, plenty of the Dzogchen guruyogas including nyingthik level ones involve visualization and dissolution....

Malcolm wrote:
Calling something "snying thig" does not make it Snying Thig. Not even Thigle Gyachen or the Chetsun Nyingthig sadhanas are actually Dzogchen practices.

Passing By said:
The same as you would do in Anuyoga yidam practice.

Malcolm wrote:
That's because they are anuyoga practices. The two stages are practices based in sems, not ye shes.

Passing By said:
So it leads to the same place in the end, even if the visualization is just a tool to introduce the view to oneself. Difference being that Anuyoga still has conceptualization about the view where Dzogchen does not etc. although I'm not sure if that's a fair way to characterize Anuyoga also....

Malcolm wrote:
Despite the view of the basis being the same in Anuyoga and Dzogchen, Anuyoga errs by seeing Dzogchen as a result of a cause.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Mandala Offerings
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
Can you make Mandala Offerings to any Deity you have empowerment for?


Malcolm wrote:
Since mandala offerings are a branch of guru yoga, we do not make mandala offerings to yidams, per se. However, if we are offering mandalas to our guru in the form of the deity, there is no issue.

Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
Thanks Acharya

Can you focus on misdeeds from the past to purify as an offering or is this incorrect?

Malcolm wrote:
There is a kind of offering of all your afflictive behavior to your guru, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Jules 09 said:
- Something that is produced is dependent on a cause.
That which depends on a cause begins in time and ends in time: i.e. it is reversible.

Malcolm wrote:
It's more like squeezing a snake to see its legs, to recall an old Tibetan metaphor. Squeezing a snake does not cause it legs to arise, merely to show something already there. This is sense in which when sentient beings are pressed with the path, their buddhahood is produced. It's like when a cop stops you can says, "Can you produce your identification?" Not all usages of the word "produce" refer to creating something new.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Mandala Offerings
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
Can you make Mandala Offerings to any Deity you have empowerment for?


Malcolm wrote:
Since mandala offerings are a branch of guru yoga, we do not make mandala offerings to yidams, per se. However, if we are offering mandalas to our guru in the form of the deity, there is no issue.

conebeckham said:
I think it can depend. Not that I am disagreeing with you, Malcolm, but in the Kamtsang Ngondro, for instance,  the field of refuge includes the three roots and the three jewels. Gurus are central, of course, and viewing the Yidam as manifestation of the Guru is an essential pith instruction.

Malcolm wrote:
We do mandala offerings after Vajrasattva, and to the Guru retinue, not the refuge retinue, even if they are identical in composition. The source of mandala offerings is Guhysamaja, where it is part of the guru sadhana. In India, the guru was typically visualized in the form of the yidam (leading to Marpa's confusion about what was what).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: Mandala Offerings
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
Can you make Mandala Offerings to any Deity you have empowerment for?


Malcolm wrote:
Since mandala offerings are a branch of guru yoga, we do not make mandala offerings to yidams, per se. However, if we are offering mandalas to our guru in the form of the deity, there is no issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2022 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Jules 09 said:
And no, "there isn’t a unified Buddhanature pervading all sentient beings" because the Basis, Buddhanature has never been fragmented, so cannot be said to be "unified". And neither is it the case that each sentient being has 'their own' Buddhanature.

Malcolm wrote:
The basis is just a generic set of attributes, this is why Dzogchen texts refer to it as the "spyi gzhi," "the generic basis."

All fires are hot. Not all fires are the same. The same heat does not permeate all fires. "heat" is a "spyi mtshan nyid," a generic characteristic (samanyalakṣana), known in western philosophy as a universal. Dzogchen is a Buddhist system, and like all the other ones, is nominalist in orientation.

The general example in Dzogchen for buddhanature is the oil in sesame seeds. The Vajrasattva Mind Mirror:

Tathāgatagarbha exists intrinsically in all sentient beings. That exists just as sesame seeds are permeated with oil. Its basis — it is based on the material aggregate.

When you press one seed, it produces its own oil, not the oil of all seeds. When you "press" one sentient being with the path, that being produces their own buddhahood, not the buddhahood of all beings. So you are incorrect, every sentient beings possesses their own buddhanature just as every sesame seed possesses its own oil.

The reason why the basis is beyond one or many is that the basis is a generic set of attributes, just as heat, the generic attribute of fire, is beyond one or many. Since generic characteristics are unreal, they cannot be quantified as being "one" or "many." Why are they unreal? Because they are abstractions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2022 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: John Myrdhin Reynolds (aka Vajranatha)
Content:
Trinley said:
I believe his title of Vajranatha

Malcolm wrote:
Not a title. It’s a translation of Mgon po rdo rje, a common Tibetan name. It’s probably his refuge name.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2022 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Can it get any worse?
Content:
PeterC said:
[
Where can I find this modern global community?  Where does it get together and set rules for itself, decide what is moral and immoral?  Where did it gather in the 19th century?  Where was the meeting of the Capitalists held where they devised their evil plot to subjugate the rest of the world?

Malcolm wrote:
“Capitalism” in this context, is a Marxist conspiracy theory, as you correctly point out.

But the response you are likely to get will range from the Trilateral  comission to Davos, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2022 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:



Kai lord said:
To what degree of confidence would that be? Rushen practices no longer needed?

Malcolm wrote:
Rushan is always needed. It’s not something you do once and then notch your belt.

You just need to have confidence in the basis, Buddhanature. That’s it.

The view of the basis in Dzogchen and Anuyoga is different than Mahayoga.

Kai lord said:
You just need to have confidence in the basis, Buddhanature. That’s it.

Jules 09 said:
Buddhanature is all pervasive.
Your Buddhanature is not separate from anyone else's Buddhanature.
Have confidence in that.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhanature is all pervasive because all sentient beings are Buddhas from the beginning. That’s what one has to become confident in.

But there isn’t a unified Buddhanature pervading all sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2022 at 9:43 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:



KristenM said:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11345793/German-climate-activists-throw-MASH-POTATOES-Monets-Les-Meules-Barberini-Museum.html

What do you think of Gen Z’s approach to the issue? Calling governments out as “Blah blah blah” or throwing tomato soup on paintings, is it helpful or effective?

Malcolm wrote:
They have little actual,power to effect change. They’ll figure this out as they age.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2022 at 7:31 AM
Title: Re: The real problem
Content:
clyde said:
computational neuroscience

Malcolm wrote:
To a hammer, everything is a nail.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2022 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Kai lord said:
To stabilise divine pride,  yes but to purify the base and to achieve the union of calm abiding and special insight,  its not sufficient.

Malcolm wrote:
The point of Anuyoga is that diviine pride is sufficient. The point of Dzogchen is that is sufficient to merely think one is the deity, there is no need to meditate on it.

Why? The basis of purification is different in Dzogchen than it is in general Mahāyoga. The caveat is one must be very confident in the view.

Kai lord said:
To what degree of confidence would that be? Rushen practices no longer needed?

Malcolm wrote:
Rushan is always needed. It’s not something you do once and then notch your belt.

You just need to have confidence in the basis, Buddhanature. That’s it.

The view of the basis in Dzogchen and Anuyoga is different than Mahayoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2022 at 8:24 AM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:


Kai lord said:
To stabilise divine pride,  yes but to purify the base and to achieve the union of calm abiding and special insight,  its not sufficient.

Malcolm wrote:
The point of Anuyoga is that diviine pride is sufficient. The point of Dzogchen is that is sufficient to merely think one is the deity, there is no need to meditate on it.

Why? The basis of purification is different in Dzogchen than it is in general Mahāyoga. The caveat is one must be very confident in the view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2022 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Ole Nydahl suffering from advanced Alzheimer's?
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
I came across this recent article:
https://www.tilogaard.dk/english/html/Ole_Nydahl_suffer_from_severe_alzheimer.html

I've never been a fan (to put it mildly) but this sounds very sad if true. Any DW members confirm?

Malcolm wrote:
He did fall a couple of thousand feet out of an airplane...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2022 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana sutra source for eight freedoms and ten endowments?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
PS, there are a lot more important terms that need attention, like pratyātmavedanajñāna aka rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2022 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-news-russia-us-army-101st-airborne-nato-war-games-romania/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2022 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana sutra source for eight freedoms and ten endowments?
Content:


Zhen Li said:
There is a whole array of Chinese translation theories as well, and my opinion (and that of the tradition as it developed into the Tang and Song) is that the domesticating translations simply do a poorer job of representing the Sanskrit text in Chinese

Malcolm wrote:
Not everyone is trying to represent Sanskrit texts. For example, translators from Tibetan are generally trying to present what Tibetans understand, not Indians.

Zhen Li said:
This is a big topic, but Sanskrit is still a language of liturgy and study here in Nepal.


Malcolm wrote:
In a tradition that is basically isolated to a few thousand Newars whose religious identity is maintained through the caste system. I know a quite a few Newari people, none of them know Sanskrit, and rely on translations into the vernacular to read classical Buddhist texts.

Zhen Li said:
Languages are not static things, and Sanskrit also makes up a large portion of both classical and contemporary Newar vocabulary in a way that you can't see in Tibetan.

Malcolm wrote:
Same with Hindi and every other North Indian vernacular.


Zhen Li said:
In any case, the point is not about whether the language is living or not; we can still read Sanskrit, understand, and translate it... So, that is absolutely no excuse to dismiss Sanskrit Buddhist texts, which actually should still take priority over Tibetan...

Malcolm wrote:
I don't dismiss them, but Sanskrit Buddhist texts cannot be understood in absence of their Tibetan, Chinese, etc. translations. There is no living tradition of Indian Buddhist paṇḍitas trained in Tibetan, etc., to adjudicate translation equivalents or explain difficult points.

Zhen Li said:
I have always exercised the philosophy of overriding the local Chinese translation when I know the Sanskrit referent had a more precise meaning that can be represented in English or which is best retained in Sanskrit.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a good thing to do in some cases, in some cases, it is not. For example, the term ye shes has taken on a completely different understanding than the term jñāna in Sanskrit, even in the way it is explained on the basis of Indian texts. There is a Ven diagram of congruence, but we cannot say that Tibetan ye shes = Sanskrit jñāna, so I use different strategies for different lineages of texts. But in no case do I ever privilege Sanskrit over Tibetan, I triangulate. Part of the reason for this is Buddhist Sanskrit is also a derivative or foreignizing language (most Indians never knew Sanskrit, for example), and many definitions and ways of explaining things in Sanskrit are problematic when looking at the vernacular origins of most Buddhist terms. It is not like the translations from vernaculars into Sanskrit, or even original compositions in Sanskrit, were done under the strictest of academic discipline.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2022 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana sutra source for eight freedoms and ten endowments?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dal ba does not convey the meaning of moment, it is generally a term that means slow, leisurely, relaxed, etc.

Zhen Li said:
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Malcolm wrote:
It is how Indian Paṇḍitas instructed Tibetans to translate the term in this context (dal ba = kṣaṇā, mi khom pa brgyad kyi ming = aṣṭāvakṣaṇāḥ).
If you tell most anglo-phone Tibetan Buddhist that they should reflect on "opportunities" and "endowments," they'll think you talking about a job and its benefits.
This is a matter of translation theory. I'm not convinced of the need to domesticate translations, as suggested by translation theorists Antoine Berman and Lawrence Venuti.

The Buddha himself made it clear that Dharma was to be communicated in the local vernacular. So we do not need to involve translation theorists at all (about whom I could give two figs anyway.)

There is no living tradition of Sanskrit Buddhism, despite all the romantic revanchism of Academia. The living tradition is more important than words in a dead language.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2022 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana sutra source for eight freedoms and ten endowments?
Content:
Zhen Li said:
I think freedom is just too strong a term in this case. Consider, for instance, the difference in sense between the term "free time" and "freedom." We would say "I have free time," but to say "I have freedom" sounds like you have achieved some kind of liberation already (this is the sense in the aṣṭavimokṣāḥ). Also, "I have the free time to practice the Dharma" has a different meaning than "I have the freedom to practice the Dharma." The point here is that in the immeasurableness of the time of saṃsāra, we have finally obtained an opportunity where it is possible. So, I think it is important to preserve the temporal implications of kṣaṇa, which the Tibetan clearly does adequately.

Malcolm wrote:
I think this is overstating the meaning of the term "freedom." Freedom means there are no restrictions, "When I retired, I finally had the freedom to pursue my hobbies." It does not necessarily imply mokṣa/thar pa in English.

Zhen Li said:
There are many definitions of freedom, and that is one of them. We can also say, "I was finally at liberty to pursue my hobbies." But from the perspective of translation, kṣaṇa has the meaning of moment, so a temporal implication should be conveyed. We can say opportunity in the same sentence, which has the same meaning as freedom while preserving the original sense: "I finally had the opportunity to pursue my hobbies."

Malcolm wrote:
Dal ba does not convey the meaning of moment, it is generally a term that means slow, leisurely, relaxed, etc.

In any case, Buddhism is not going to be destroyed because someone does not like a translation equivalent.

If you tell most anglo-phone Tibetan Buddhist that they should reflect on "opportunities" and "endowments," they'll think you talking about a job and its benefits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2022 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana sutra source for eight freedoms and ten endowments?
Content:
Zhen Li said:
I think freedom is just too strong a term in this case. Consider, for instance, the difference in sense between the term "free time" and "freedom." We would say "I have free time," but to say "I have freedom" sounds like you have achieved some kind of liberation already (this is the sense in the aṣṭavimokṣāḥ). Also, "I have the free time to practice the Dharma" has a different meaning than "I have the freedom to practice the Dharma." The point here is that in the immeasurableness of the time of saṃsāra, we have finally obtained an opportunity where it is possible. So, I think it is important to preserve the temporal implications of kṣaṇa, which the Tibetan clearly does adequately.

Malcolm wrote:
I think this is overstating the meaning of the term "freedom." Freedom means there are no restrictions, "When I retired, I finally had the freedom to pursue my hobbies." It does not necessarily imply mokṣa/thar pa in English.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2022 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana sutra source for eight freedoms and ten endowments?
Content:


Zhen Li said:
In any case, kṣaṇa is a positive term, it is not freedom or lack; it is the opportunity itself.

ratna said:
Yes, "eight freedoms" is a bit of an interpretative translation. There is one opportune moment that is free from the eight inopportune ones. According to Prajñākaramati, kṣaṇasampad is "the good fortune or completeness of the opportune moment (kṣaṇa) of being free from the eight inopportune moments (akṣaṇa)" (aṣṭākṣaṇavinirmuktasya kṣaṇasya saṃpattiḥ samagratā).

As for the Suhṛllekha, you can find Péter-Dániel Szántó's Sanskrit edition on Academia.edu.

Zhen Li said:
Thanks kindly, I see the number in the Sanskrit which was missing in the translations from Tibetan I saw:

mithyādṛṣṭigrāhas tiryaktvaṃ pretatā prasūtir niraye |
jinavacanānupalabdhiḥ pratyantamlecchajanma jaḍa3mūkatvam || 64 ||
anyatame dīrghāyuṣi devatve janma caiv[a c]āṣṭābhir imam |
varjitam akṣaṇadoṣair labdhvā kṣaṇam ārabhasva janmanivṛttyai || 65 ||

Roughly translated:

One who grasps to wrong views, of animal-hood, of preta-hood, or who comes forth in niraya,
Not obtaining the words of the Jina, and is born as a border-mleccha or as a dumb idiot,

And one who indeed is born as one of many divinities in the long life [heavens]:
Having obtained the abandonment of [these] eight faults of inopportune states, you should hold fast to the opportunity for cessation of birth.

Malcolm wrote:
In Tibetan, kṣaṇa, is translated, in this instance, as dal ba, leisure. We generally translate this concept as freedom, because leisure in this context is freedom from these eight states. So it’s a meaning translation rather than a literal translation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2022 at 12:36 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana sutra source for eight freedoms and ten endowments?
Content:
Zhen Li said:
The Suhṛllekha does talk about qualities similar to the set of eight (that go with the ten), but it doesn't enumerate them as eight or name them.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in fact it does.

I’ll cite it tomorrow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2022 at 8:34 AM
Title: Re: Immimnent crash of markets
Content:
tingdzin said:
I hope your optimism is justified. I am pulling out because my  401 k now charges me more than twice as much to take money out as they did before, and I can't wait for the market to turn. I am also losing my shirt. Toenail, you may be better off with reputable European insrtituions  than with sleazy American financiers.

Malcolm wrote:
It is justified. You only gain or lose when you sell. If you have to sell, sell only as much as you need short term. Keep the rest in.

Frankly, you are screwing yourself. You will never recover those losses. Sell when the market goes up, never when it is going down, or at the bottom.

This is just a correction, long overdue because TFG poured nitro into the market to try and keep himself popular.

Montoya said:
This might be one of the only areas where I am more qualified to speak on a Dharmawheel topic than Malcolm (I am an investment professional) and I have to say, his advice here is absolutely spot on. Timing the market is an absolute loser's game. You need to be aware of your own circumstances of course, but if you are properly diversified and do not need the money immediately, you should leave it.

Buddhist principles actually have a lot to contribute to how one thinks about managing yours (or others) investment, foremost among them being a firm grasp of the twin perils of greed and fear. I have many expensive tools at my disposal for navigating markets and yet I'd say one of my most important tools is understanding the greed/fear dynamics of the broader market and my own greed/fear and its impact on my trading decisions.

Malcolm wrote:
I am an avid fan of Keynes’ greater fool theory. He did quite well in the market, back in his day.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2022 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Can it get any worse?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This didn't age well...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2022 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana sutra source for eight freedoms and ten endowments?
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Is there a Mahayana sutra source for the eight freedoms and ten endowments?

Or is this from a shastra?

Can anyone identify the first text these appear together?

Malcolm wrote:
Seems to be from Nāgārjuna's Surhlekha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2022 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Can it get any worse?
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2022 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Can it get any worse?
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
you mad lads are going to bring Bojo back, aren't you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2022 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: Can it get any worse?
Content:
Unknown said:
U.K. Live Updates: Liz Truss Says She Will Resign as Prime Minister

Her departure, after six weeks in office, came as virtually all of her signature tax cuts were being reversed, a stark repudiation of her leadership.

Malcolm wrote:
From the NYT.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2022 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Immimnent crash of markets
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Since 1929, the market has returned roughly 10% a year.

tingdzin said:
If this is true, it means my 401k company has been scr**ing me for decades. This is of course a real possibility.

Malcolm wrote:
If you were in mixed fund of bonds and stocks, you still should had an average return of 8-9%.

tingdzin said:
Stock market returns since 2009
If you invested $100 in the S&P 500 at the beginning of 2009, you would have about $571.98 at the end of 2022, assuming you reinvested all dividends. This is a return on investment of 471.98%, or 13.52% per year.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 19th, 2022 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Immimnent crash of markets
Content:
Natan said:
There is a school of thought that a massive deflation could wreck the economy for decades and it's predicated on fiat money creation.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah. Metal back currencies are much more unstable than fiat currencies. Study the history of money in China.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2022 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: Aphantasia & Dzogchen / tantric practices
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen’s not about visualizing anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2022 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: Immimnent crash of markets
Content:
tingdzin said:
I hope your optimism is justified. I am pulling out because my  401 k now charges me more than twice as much to take money out as they did before, and I can't wait for the market to turn. I am also losing my shirt. Toenail, you may be better off with reputable European insrtituions  than with sleazy American financiers.

Malcolm wrote:
It is justified. You only gain or lose when you sell. If you have to sell, sell only as much as you need short term. Keep the rest in.

Frankly, you are screwing yourself. You will never recover those losses. Sell when the market goes up, never when it is going down, or at the bottom.

This is just a correction, long overdue because TFG poured nitro into the market to try and keep himself popular.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2022 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Immimnent crash of markets
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Since 1929, the market has returned roughly 10% a year. Pulling money out when markets are sinking is a bad move. Now is the time to buy stocks, not sell, since everything is at a 20% discount.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2022 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Do I need transmission, empowerment, lung, requirements, etc to read Tantric texts?
Content:


Zhen Li said:
Besides hearsay or tradition, what are the textual precedents for the restriction of reading tantras (if it isn't stated in the tantra itself)? I also read plenty of tantric materials in Japan with Shingon ajari and they just treated them as objects of academic study and never had any discomfort with sharing their knowledge about anything (including visualisations, mantras, mudras, etc.)—it wasn't a ritual environment, and they never expected that I would take my notes home and start practicing. So, my impression, based on other traditions, has always actually been Ikkyu's Son's first statement. Though I was aware that Tibetans are more sensitive about this.

Malcolm wrote:
Lower tantras have different rules around secrecy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2022 at 12:09 PM
Title: Re: Does Tibetan Buddhism have consensus on what the first jhana is?
Content:
Boomerang said:
It seems that in the Theravada tradition there's no consensus on what it means to achieve the first jhana in shine/shamatha practice. Is Tibetan Buddhism the same, or is there a widely agreed upon definition of what it means to achieve the first jhana?

Not sure what the Tibetan word for the concept of the 8 jhanas/dyanas is. Sorry about that.

Malcolm wrote:
Bsam gtan


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2022 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: mewas and associated buddhas
Content:
Toenail said:
Im reading Key to the tibetan calendar, but I dont find anything on these associated buddhas of mewas. For example, for my mewa i find on the internet the recommendation to build a Manjushri statue. I think Mentsekhangs horoscope also give these kinds of recommendations. What textual source does this custom have? It seems a bit simplistic "make a statue of Manjshri or you will become a dog in your next life" etc...

Is it from a tantra or maybe some tibetan custom and folklore etc?

Malcolm wrote:
It comes from texts of Tibetan Elemental Calculation authored by Lochen Dharmashri and Desi Sangye Gyatso, which are themselves based on a number of texts, many now lost.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2022 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Toenail said:
Im not a fan of conspiracy theories but russia blowing up these pipe lines makes no sense at all to me

Malcolm wrote:
It absolutely makes sense, it’s the best way for them to punish tne EU for interfering in their war, combined with with hiking prices on oil to keep revenue going for their invasion of.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2022 at 7:08 AM
Title: Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Samaya in Dzogchen is to remain in that which was pointed out, no?
And if one can't do that, then the samayas of Tantra come into play.

- Anyone disagree?

Malcolm wrote:
VImalamitra disagrees, Buddhahood in This Life:

Further, the result of buddhahood arises without impediment from the conjunction of a qualified guru, a disciple who possesses samaya, and the blessings of the empowerment. For example, like grain ripening after a seed is planted in fertile soil, well-tended with water, and so on, the result ripens based on not damaging samaya after the empowerment has been conferred upon one’s pure continuum.

Longchenpa disagrees, in the Lama Yangthig:

Now then, although there is nothing to damage or transgress, the natural great completion being beyond a boundary to protect, it is necessary for yogins on the path of practice to abide in commitments.

The 27 samayas are the samayas of Dzogchen, as well as the five things to accept, etc. These samayas are mentioned in the Self-arisen VIdyā tantra, etc. The root and branch samayas, and so on, are  stated in the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra:

Though the different explanations of the samayas that
support the empowerment
cannot be covered by speech,
in brief, [the vows of] body, speech, and mind
are to be applied to the yogi’s body, voice, and mind.
The object is the guru and vajra siblings.
The divisions of the field of protection
are the vows of body, voice, and mind,
and maintaining the place of the secret vajra.

Of course there are four unbreakable samayas related to the basis, but they are unbreakable. The others are breakable, and have the following consequences. The Self-Arisen Vidyā states:

You must maintain the samaya vows.
Keep in mind the concise explanation
of the samayas, said to number one hundred thousand.
Further, the brief explanation includes 
the samayas of the view to be realized,
the samayas of continuous conduct,
the samayas of general practice,
the common general samayas,
the samayas of body, speech, and mind,
the secondary samayas,

The master and disciple who possess the meaning
abide in equipoise in utter purity,
and likewise, they are endowed with samaya.
If samaya is damaged, both master and disciple will be
burned.


So who can say that the samayas are not critical in Dzogchen teachings?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2022 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson
Content:
gelukman said:
Thanks Malcolm

Do you have any sources to text transmissions or lungs carry samaya?
Preferably english I would be interested to read more.

Malcolm wrote:
It is axiomatic. If you give lungs of tantric texts, they carry samaya. Otherwise, one is revealing secrets to the unripened. It is the seventh root downfall, of the 14 root downfalls.

And for Dzogchen specifically, Longchenpa writes in the Lama Yangthig's Ocean of Liberation:

"The appropriate secrets are the commitments substances of mantra; the five meats, the five nectars, the vajra and bell, skulls, kīlas, etc., pictures of the forms of mandalas of inner deitieis, etc., because the mentalities of lower vehicles have no room, if such articles are shown to the less fortunate, they may become hostile; thus they should be concealed.

The Crystal Mountain Tantra:

If a holder of mantra endeavors in yoga, 
the māras become interested, 
endeavoring to cause breaks in commitments, 
since that it is so, understand this well.

It is stated in a thousand places that one needs to be careful in how Dzogchen teachings are promulgated. We cannot do anything about the samaya of other people, but we can guard our own samaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2022 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson
Content:
gelukman said:
And one should remember this is not an empowerment?
Just a text transmission aka lung.

Malcolm wrote:
Lungs of tantras carry samaya. That's why, for example, I know the background of every person who receives a lung of a Dzgchen text from me. It is not a free for all. I know who they received empowerment from, when they received it, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2022 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson
Content:
jamesrigzin said:
I think it is incorrect to say that one can offer textual transmission after receiving it from this person.

Did Chris Wilkinson say that?

gelukman said:
Yes, I think I will agree with him on this point.

I am of course willing to listen to the "nay sayers" if they provide some
better arguments like "certainly no".

Malcolm wrote:
There are three kinds of gurus: gurus who give empowerments, gurus who give lungs, and gurus who give upadeshas. The best of course is the guru who gives all three. But to give a lung of a tantra means that people to whom one is giving the lung are becoming one's disciples. Thus it is not really a samaya-free transmission.

This means that people need to have empowerment, etc., before they can read said texts, even if they have received the lung. Otherwise, there is the root downfall of revealing secrets to the unripened. These are the kinds of things one has to take into consideration before one begins to act as a guide for others by giving them lungs, especially the seventeen tantras, which list severe punishments for promulgating them to unqualified recipients. Simply put, people should not read these texts if they are not qualified to do so.

Finally, frankly, most people in the west do not have a good understanding of this literature. People who do not have a good understanding of this literature and do not know Tibetan have no business givings lungs of translations of these texts, because they cannot correct errors when they find them. We must not assume that any translations of Dzogchen texts are perfect, and they all need to be explained point by point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2022 at 7:00 AM
Title: Re: Can it get any worse?
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
When you look at it, without its Empire, what does it have going for it?  Educated workforce? Yes, not bad. Natural resources? Nothing special. Population? Nothing special. Infrastructure? Ageing, especially because it 'modernised' so early in the Industrial Revolution.

Malcolm wrote:
They really blew it with Brexit. They were Europe's Wall Street. That's done now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Issue with DC teaching and transmission
Content:


Gyurme Kundrol said:
DC seems to want to create another monolith in the form of Yeshi, but it would be better for sentient beings, and for Yeshi, if a few teachers were deemed qualified to teach Dzogchen in a complete way.

Malcolm wrote:
And of course no one feels qualified to deem them as such, and for very good reasons, since the DC then becomes responsible for their conduct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2022 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Issue with DC teaching and transmission
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In any case, advanced bodhisattvas on the impure bhumis don’t need to attend empowerments at all. And since I live ten minutes from Tsegyalgar, I am very certain no first stage+ bodhisattvas are attending Elias’s retreat. Why would they want to? What would be the point?

As for nonhuman gurus, what did you have in mind, Nagas? Also here, even to see nonhuman beings one has to be a highly developed yogi.

Seeker12 said:
Indeed, they don't need to in some sense, but there may be many reasons to nonetheless.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, for example to continue a lineage. But why are we having this sidebar, it isn't relevant at all to the main discussion.

Seeker12 said:
Tulku Thondup, in discussing tertons (of which, of course, there are more than the 'recognized' ones, there are many minor tertons) says,

Malcolm wrote:
When did this discussion turn to tertons?

Seeker12 said:
"If all beings throughout the three realms came to perceive natural mind as suchness, they would attain the level of atiyoga in that very instant..."

Malcolm wrote:
Another tantra of note points out that since no sentient being has ever discovered this on their own, all sentient beings require a guru. Again, this point you raise is irrelevant.

Seeker12 said:
And I don't see the points being discussed sufficiently.

Malcolm wrote:
You are having the wrong conversation in the wrong thread.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Issue with DC teaching and transmission
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Not until they reach the pure bhumis. It’s only then can they see the sambhogakaya. There is no Vajrayana shortcut here.

Seeker12 said:
Also, this is not true, as there can be many types of nirmanakaya manifestations. It is not necessarily just about the sambhogakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Nirmanakaya manifestations are necessarily physical. In any case, advanced bodhisattvas on the impure bhumis don’t need to attend empowerments at all. And since I live ten minutes from Tsegyalgar, I am very certain no first stage+ bodhisattvas are attending Elias’s retreat. Why would they want to? What would be the point?

As for nonhuman gurus, what did you have in mind, Nagas? Also here, even to see nonhuman beings one has to be a highly developed yogi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Issue with DC teaching and transmission
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Ok to clarify here, is Elias (or any other teacher) explicitly claiming there is no transmission taking place, or are they simply not doing DI in the style of Rinpoche and nothing this….likely due to expectations?

Malcolm wrote:
The present official position of the DC is that only Yeshe’s transmissions are considered valid. They are not recognizing other teachers who give transmission in ChNN’s stream, including Elias. This is why, for example, Fabio is telling people who,have done Mandarava retreats with Nina that they cannot attend his Mandarava Tsalujg retreat if they did not have transmission from either ChNN or Yeshe. So you see, despite the distractions caused by some random opinions in this thread, this is a very serious issue for the DC and they need to get their shit together.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Issue with DC teaching and transmission
Content:


Seeker12 said:
I personally think it is important, at a point, to recognize that bodhisattvas may essentially receive empowerment in ways that are not coarsely seen by those without developed wisdom eyes.

Malcolm wrote:
Not until they reach the pure bhumis. It’s only then can they see the sambhogakaya. There is no Vajrayana shortcut here.

The need for empowerment is, as you state, based on ordinary people entering the path, not bodhisattvas on the stages. I’d be very surprised if any bodhisattvas on the stages were attending any Dzogchen retreats at Tsegyalgar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Passing By said:
. So I assumed that this style should count also in Nyingma and particularly, Elias' current event

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn’t because the language of DC is ambiguous with respect to this program. People who attend who are completely new won’t know whether they have transmission or not. How is this not a fault?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:


dharmafootsteps said:
New people without transmission were allowed to go to teachings on things like rushen and GYoWA with SMS instructors in ChNN’s time?

That’s something I wasn’t aware of.

Malcolm wrote:
They were allowed to learn practices. That’s all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 12:09 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 11:57 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:



PeterC said:
A better question, posed by Navalny in the op-Ed posted above, is: what follows Putin in Russia, and how can it be better?

Malcolm wrote:
Let's hope it isn't Navalny.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 11:52 AM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Tata1 said:
And the former definitly happened in Chnn time with his consentment.

Malcolm wrote:
That's because ChNN was alive.

Tata1 said:
In the blue book it says that we should incorporate in teachings and practeces new people who are genuinely interested even if they dont have transmission because in the future they will receive it

Malcolm wrote:
People cannot practice trekcho without Dzogchen transmission. That's axiomatic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Seeker12 said:
Generally speaking what I am referring to would fall within category 6 of DI in Scriptural Transmissions, inducing distraction.

Malcolm wrote:
And you received the actual explanation of this from whom? Or did you just read this in Barron's translation? Generally speaking, these things are meant to be kept secret.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2022 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:


Tata1 said:
Chnn also allowed newcomers who didnt received transmission to participate in DC practices if they where interested in receiving it when the oportunity arised

Malcolm wrote:
He allowed them to participate in practices, yes. And this is a fairly common thing among Nyingmapas. But he would never give DZOGCHEN teachings without giving DZOGCHEN transmission, and that is the point here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Pero said:
But then I also heard Rinpoche say that after that he looked back on his time there and understood that Changchub Dorje was giving him DI all the time and he just didn't get it.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not what Rinpoche said. He said that all of the conduct of one’s teacher was a teaching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Seeker12 said:
it may be transmitted when a teacher looks at you and laughs

Malcolm wrote:
No.

Seeker12 said:
I disagree, a wrathful/powerful manifestation, say of Drolo, may do so with a vajra laugh just as much as a guru may do so when suddenly, forcefully uttering 'phat!'

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not what Dzogchen transmission entails. Like any empowerment, it entails the active participation on the part of both teacher AND student.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 1:05 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Domingo said:
I remember, during my first retreat with Lopön Tenzin Namdak, he also didn't give DI

Malcolm wrote:
Yes he did. Certainly you were there to receive transmission of Dzogchen and he was intending to transmit it. That's what direct introduction is and that's all it is.

Mr. Meseeks said:
Are you saying thats what a Rigpa'i tsal wang is, just these concurrence of intents?

Malcolm wrote:
Any transmission requires active participation on the part of both teacher and student. Otherwise, there is no transmission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 12:43 PM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It's terrible if one thinks democracy is of value. If you don't, well...

Bundokji said:
Maybe my approach to conflict and understanding it is pretty mundane and far from being academic or scholarly.

Malcolm wrote:
Democracy is neither a moral nor a spiritual system. It is a political system.

Bundokji said:
Having the body as a starting point for references, i tend to take geography more than ideology as key to pragmatism. The geographical proximity between Russia and Ukraine translates into similarities in history, customs, language and culture.

Malcolm wrote:
This is Russian narrative. Ukrainians, as well as scholars like Snyder, dispute this.

Bundokji said:
This is why, i do not consider Russia nor the US to be racist countries.

Malcolm wrote:
The US is a deeply racist country, but it is committed to democracy, while Russia and China are not.

Bundokji said:
i do not see the real value of history as its taught to people.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a very romantic perspective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 7:32 AM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:


Bundokji said:
No false narrative considering that US expansionism became obvious after WWII. If you believe the US has some moral mission towards the rest of the world...

Malcolm wrote:
Liberal internationalism is pragmatic and not ideological.



Bundokji said:
Such as?
Economic instability. Food shortages. Becoming new arenas for proxy wars. To be expected to take sides such as the participation in sanctions, manipulating energy prices ...etc. Let alone the dire consequences of increasing the nuclear threat, motivating corrupt regimes to acquire it ...etc.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean like Russia blocking grain from Ukraine...

Bundokji said:
Yes. It would be terrible.
Maps throughout history have been subject to change. It is terrible only when measured against some underlying value that makes Ukraine or Taiwan quite different and alarming. I have heard that Taiwan produces %60 of the world's advanced chips. This could be a reason why its terrible.



Malcolm wrote:
It's terrible if one thinks democracy is of value. If you don't, well...


Bundokji said:
Imperialist, probably. Racist ....


Malcolm wrote:
Completely racist...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The post-WWII Western Liberal security order is not imperialist. It was formed for the purpose of resisting the imperial ambitions of totalitarian and authoritarian regimes, and still exists for this reason.

Bundokji said:
The institutions that emerged post WWII are concerned with global order, not liberal order.

Malcolm wrote:
Incorrect.

Bundokji said:
The western alliance emerged in opposition to the eastern alliance in a new game of dominance, mostly done through proxies due to the ability to annihilate (or end the game) by the new leaders of the "world order".

Malcolm wrote:
So the Mearshiemers of the world would have one believe, but it is a false narrative.

Bundokji said:
Any damage to developing countries as a result of maintaining the western liberal security order is a worthy sacrifice considering the magnitude of the threat!

Malcolm wrote:
Such as?

Bundokji said:
Just imagine how terrible the world would be if Putin managed to have a victory in Ukraine or if China annexes Taiwan

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It would be terrible.


Bundokji said:
so let us arm Ukrainian freedom fighters

Malcolm wrote:
To the teeth and beyond, until the Russian Federation collapses under the weight of its own racist and imperialist ambitions.


[qu0te]
The victory should be preserved to the western liberal security order even if that takes sabotaging international infrastructure such as the Nord Stream pipeline[/quote]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
However, teaching Dzogchen to people with the idea that they can "can get transmission later" is completely misguided, and destroys both teacher and student alike, ruining their opportunity to attain liberation with this precious human birth in this lifetime.

Virgo said:
What kind of results can be expected from associating with them?  Can one experience negative samaya repercussions from it?

Malcolm wrote:
Not good ones. Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Seeker12 said:
it may be transmitted when a teacher looks at you and laughs

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:


Pero said:
I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding if it is really necessary that the student has to intend to receive it because it goes against stories like Do Khyentse beating up Patrul during which he recognized the nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Patrul was already someone who had received complete Dzogchen teachings by this point, and had also received empowerments from Do Khyentse as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:


Domingo said:
PS: What Rinpoche did, was giving us teachings on Guruyoga of Tapihritsa, and of course, we did practice it together. Could that constitute DI?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Much in the same way that ChNN's transmission of Ati Guru yoga is a direct introduction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:



Bundokji said:
Maybe imperialism would be a more accurate description when physical control becomes less emphasized?

Malcolm wrote:
The post-WWII Western Liberal security order is not imperialist. It was formed for the purpose of resisting the imperial ambitions of totalitarian and authoritarian regimes, and still exists for this reason.
And I am sure you think that Ukraine should just give in to Russia and that we should just allow XI to invade Taiwan, just as you claimed before there was no oppression of Tibetans and Uyghurs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Domingo said:
I remember, during my first retreat with Lopön Tenzin Namdak, he also didn't give DI

Malcolm wrote:
Yes he did. Certainly you were there to receive transmission of Dzogchen and he was intending to transmit it. That's what direct introduction is and that's all it is. But the teacher needs to be clear about this. If they are not, then there is a big problem.

In Dzogchen teachings, there are four empowerments: elaborate, unelaborate, very unelaborate, and extremely unelaborate. Direct introduction is a name for the last, but it is included in the former three.

Domingo said:
At least he didn't mention anything like giving "rang ngo sprod" or "ngo rang sprod" nor did he give anything resembling the ways of giving DI I'm aware of.

Malcolm wrote:
Just showing certain postures are in themselves an empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2022 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Only if one argues poorly.

...

Kim O'Hara said:
Two out of three ain't bad.


Kim

Bundokji said:
Maybe imperialism would be a more accurate description when physical control becomes less emphasized?

Malcolm wrote:
The post-WWII Western Liberal security order is not imperialist. It was formed for the purpose of resisting the imperial ambitions of totalitarian and authoritarian regimes, and still exists for this reason.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Domingo said:
I remember, during my first retreat with Lopön Tenzin Namdak, he also didn't give DI

Malcolm wrote:
Yes he did. Certainly you were there to receive transmission of Dzogchen and he was intending to transmit it. That's what direct introduction is and that's all it is. But the teacher needs to be clear about this. If they are not, then there is a big problem.

In Dzogchen teachings, there are four empowerments: elaborate, unelaborate, very unelaborate, and extremely unelaborate. Direct introduction is a name for the last, but it is included in the former three.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Arnoud said:
I think one can receive DI without knowing it

Malcolm wrote:
If you mean that when direct introduction is given, the student may not notice the experience and need to rediscover it through methods like semzin, yes.

If you mean that someone can give direct introduction without letting the student know what they are doing, this is not possible. A transmission, according to ChNN requires a teacher intending to give transmission and a student intending to receive it.

Even if the student misses the experience, they still heard the words and symbols which point to the experience.

Arnoud said:
Then I misunderstood CNN’s story about Changchub Dorje. I always took it to mean that CNN never intended to receive DI (since he was more interested in empowerments) but that CD’s explanation after the day-long wang completely changed his view/View. I should re-read the story.

Malcolm wrote:
He intended to receive transmission, he was mistaken about the necessity of it being conveyed in a ritual. Rember, he had by this time received many cycles of Dzogchen from his uncle and other teachers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I don’t really see the issue, I’ve had Bön Dzogchen teaching  which involve no DI at all, but rather pointing out instructions + lung. How is this different, simply because it’s under the DC umbrella? Would there be no complaint if it was not?

Malcolm wrote:
The term is rang ngo sprod or ngo rang sprod, sometimes translated “ pointing out,” other times as “direct introduction.” The meaning is the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Arnoud said:
When I read the Changchub Dorje story, all he did was explain Dzogchen to CNN and that qualified as DI.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not all he did.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:


dharmafootsteps said:
Likewise, I enjoy his explanations. It would just be nice to not have hot potato of the DI question that keeps being tossed around the community. I'm all for any instructors with the requisite knowledge and experience to just start taking their own students in full teacher capacity.

Malcolm wrote:
That represents a complicated administrative issue for the DC, which they are incapable of dealing with.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Gyurme Kundrol said:
I don't think this is the case with Elias, as someone else noted it seems like he's stuck between just teaching Dzogchen and dealing with the DCs issues with this topic.

Malcolm wrote:
At the point, Elias is a "ra ma lug," "neither goat nor sheep." This is because he is mixing his desired role as a Dzogchen guru with his official role as an SMS instructor within Dzogchen community.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
Of course it's possible to "get it" while doing the ritual with ChNN, but very few people have the capacity to do so, so for most people it worked as above; first a ritual granting permission, then you give yourself direct introduction for real by practicing methods.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN always stated that when people attended direct introduction in the many various ways he gave it, they get it, even if they do not recognize the experience in the beginning. Why? Because the teacher intended to transmit their knowledge of the primordial state to the student and the student intended to receive that knowledge. Direct introduction is not a ritual. Framing it as such is completely mistaken.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
I like and admire Elias, btw. I consider him a great practitioner, and I think that since he has been authorised to teach by Dudjom Rinpoche, he should teach, openly, in a full-time mode, taking full responsibility for his students.

Malcolm wrote:
If he does this, how does this fit with Dzogchen Community? Administratively speaking, they do not recognize any other teachers than ChNN and Yeshe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:
Arnoud said:
I think one can receive DI without knowing it

Malcolm wrote:
If you mean that when direct introduction is given, the student may not notice the experience and need to rediscover it through methods like semzin, yes.

If you mean that someone can give direct introduction without letting the student know what they are doing, this is not possible. A transmission, according to ChNN requires a teacher intending to give transmission and a student intending to receive it.

Even if the student misses the experience, they still heard the words and symbols which point to the experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:


dharmafootsteps said:
He also points out that very few teachers give DI the way ChNN did

Malcolm wrote:
Every teacher I have received Dzogchen teachings from gave direct introduction/rig pa'i tsal dbang according to the same set of principles, which are clearly described by the Dzogchen tantras, commentaries, and masters such as Longchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:54 AM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
Colonialism Mk 2 is, arguably, the soft colonialism practised by the US since WW2...

Malcolm wrote:
Only if one argues poorly.

Only China and Russia are active practitioners of colonialism (though one might be tempted to thrown in Israel):
co·lo·ni·al·ism | kəˈlōnēəˌliz(ə)m |
noun
the policy or practice of acquiring full or partial political control over another country, occupying it with settlers, and exploiting it economically:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:46 AM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Colonialism ended in WWI with the slow march towards the democratization of Europe and the breakup of the European empires. “Colonialism” is now a tankie conspiracy theory promulgated by people like Chomsky.

Bundokji said:
Most countries in the Middle East and Afrixa gained their official independence after WWII. The Suez crisis in 1956 which Kim mentioned in his post marked a turning point where the new superpowers (US & USSR) took it as a chance to fill the vacuum left mainly by UK and France. This translated into proxy wars which ended by the collapse of the USSR and is currently reignited. From that perspective, US hegemony was short lived, and some historians would mark the end by the internal divisions in the US. It was the recklessness of George W Bush followed by Obama's doctrine of "leading from behind".

Also the world wars accelerated technological advancements and brought about new values that appears to break away with tradition by changing references. Technology provided leverage to the feminist movements and sex is being gradually replaced by gender and non-binary view of humans. The gold standard was abandoned in favor of the "free" market forces of supply and demand to determine the value of USD and to allow for sanctions to be effective. Fear of god is being replaced by fear of the prospects of AI on human destiny. Domestic concerns should be set aside in favor of more global concerns such as climate change.

In one of his recent speeches, Putin referred to the moral decay of the west including homosexuality and non-binary identity in his attempt to rally support for his war in Ukraine and to present himself as the protector of Russian future!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2022 at 11:01 AM
Title: Re: Better late than never
Content:


krodha said:
Elias gave direct introduction then?

Malcolm wrote:
As a dues-paying member of Dzogchen Community, this is my perspective:

You can't teach Dzogchen at all to someone who lacks direct introduction. Either the person teaching trekcho is giving teachings in a proper to way to people who have received or are receiving Dzogchen empowerments, or they are breaking their samaya. There is no two ways about it. This is as much on the Gakyil of Tsegyalgar as it is on Elias Caprilles himself.

Either one is confident in one's knowledge of Dzogchen and knows how to properly give Dzogchen transmission, which is detailed in myriad texts, or one is like someone who holds up the tail of a deer, but substitutes horse meat for venison in the customer's bag.

I am not commenting on whether Elias Caprilles is qualified to lead students on the path of Dzogchen or not. That's not up to me to decide. It's perfectly fine with me if Ellias, with whom I am acquainted, wishes to become a guru, undertaking to care for and be responsible for leading students to total liberation. However, this statement is total nonsense:
This course is meant for people who have received Dzogchen Transmission from a qualified Dzogchen teacher, or who have a serious intention to receive Dzogchen Transmission from one.
This is very stupid and misguided language. The DC should abandon it and be more honest. We can find thousands of citations where ChNN stated that the one indispensable thing in Dzogchen is direct introduction, without which there is no path of Dzogchen. Thus, it is impossible for someone who has not received Dzogchen transmission to participate in an "Experiential Trekchod Training Retreat." They simply are not qualified.

ChNN taught us that the role of a Dzogchen guru is to free people. Thus, this is not child's play or something that can be treated lightly. However, teaching Dzogchen to people with the idea that they can "can get transmission later" is completely misguided, and destroys both teacher and student alike, ruining their opportunity to attain liberation with this precious human birth in this lifetime.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2022 at 8:45 AM
Title: Re: Free lectures without any fee (?)
Content:
Jules 09 said:
It all comes down to motivation.
Bodhicitta is the key that opens the door to liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, some people don’t mind paying for programs because their bodhicitta is well developed.

Jules 09 said:
- Yes of course; if their bank balance permits.

Malcolm wrote:
The merit of a poor person paying for program x is much more than that for a person of means.

Longchenpa nearly left Kunaradza because he could not afford the price of the teaching. He did do this for anyone else, as far as I know


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2022 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: Free lectures without any fee (?)
Content:
Jules 09 said:
It all comes down to motivation.
Bodhicitta is the key that opens the door to liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, some people don’t mind paying for programs because their bodhicitta is well developed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2022 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:
Bundokji said:
Hegemony is rebranding of colonialism,

Malcolm wrote:
Colonialism ended in WWI with the slow march towards the democratization of Europe and the breakup of the European empires. “Colonialism” is now a tankie conspiracy theory promulgated by people like Chomsky.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2022 at 7:27 AM
Title: Re: Ready to take refuge but holding back
Content:
Tez said:
I'm now a Buddhist.

Malcolm wrote:
That means you already went for refuge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2022 at 7:21 AM
Title: Re: H.E. Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche
Content:
conebeckham said:
All of these require empowerment rituals to practice, as well as the "lung" and the instructions.

Malcolm wrote:
Cone, why bother? Don't you realize you are in the presence of greatness?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 6th, 2022 at 1:46 PM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:



Könchok Thrinley said:
Thank you mabw!

As a European US being the "world leader tm" is a good thing for me. However, the simple fact is that what US and EU with Great Britain overlooked is actually helping african and south american nations to develop.

Malcolm wrote:
Correction. The US kept monarchies out of S. America. Moreover, the development of Chilean mining and Venezuelan oil was due to US capital investment. You can argue whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but if you make development your criteria, US money is behind most capital development in the world in the late 20th century.

Könchok Thrinley said:
But for the amount of resources we have stolen, the amount of leftist governments the US have overthrown we have not given back enough.

Malcolm wrote:
Another huge myth that does not stand up to an examination of facts. And for all the whinging about the CIA (which was not an effective organization when it came to regime change), why don't people whinge equally about the KGB?

Könchok Thrinley said:
Not to mention that the support of Ukraine was in many cases spearheaded by European nations such as Poland, Czechia and the Baltic states.


Malcolm wrote:
Ukrainian troops have been trained by NATO allies since 2014, that includes people like General Mark Hertling. This is the reason why AFU are so effective and are pushing back the Russians, despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the far left and far right in the West.

The fact is that Trump demonstrated very clearly why US withdrawal from hegemony is actually very destabilizing to international security.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 6th, 2022 at 1:35 PM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
US hegemony.

Malcolm wrote:
Is still a thing, and a good thing at that.

mabw said:
Correction, good for you in the global north. Pls do not generalise. For those in Cuba, South America, and the rest of the world where your country has tried to inflame ethnic tensions to further your geopolitical goals and allies that you have thrown under the bus for convenience, not so much. But of course, you would strongly disagree. Typical.

Malcolm wrote:
All unsupported assertions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2022 at 12:33 PM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If we were as willing to be as brutal as the Russians are in Ukraine...well, Iraq, Vietnam, etc. would have had very different endings.

PadmaVonSamba said:
You mean like how they won in Afghanistan?

Malcolm wrote:
The US never intended to "win" in Afghanistan. That was never part of the mission. The reason Afghanistan was a debacle was that the Trump Administration cut a deal with Taliban, and cut out Kharzi, etc.

Biden attempted to limit our involvement in Afghanistan in 2010 to anti-terrorism, but Obama, given his lack of foreign policy experience, wouldn't listen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2022 at 7:01 AM
Title: Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?
Content:
krodha said:
The arhathood claim is whatever, but in terms of just insight in general, I’ve heard this guy has some degree of credibility.

Malcolm wrote:
If one is into bodybuilding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2022 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: US hegemony
Content:
Knotty Veneer said:
US hegemony.

Malcolm wrote:
Is still a thing, and a good thing at that.

Kim O'Hara said:
It's mostly a good thing but much less of a thing than it was?


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Ukraine has shown it is just as much of a thing as it ever was. One must understand that the US military has the most accumulated experience of any army in the world. None of our so-called adversaries have a much combat experience as we do. If we were as willing to be as brutal as the Russians are in Ukraine...well, Iraq, Vietnam, etc. would have had very different endings.


