﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?
Content:
mr. gordo said:
How are the definitions for "self-originated" explained in terms of dependent origination?  I may be misreading it, but it seems to go against dependent origination if for example, "X" arises without causes and conditions.

Pero said:
Could you clarify this Namdrol?

Malcolm wrote:
Self-originated here is referring the dharmakāya. It is not dependently originated. The term svayambhujñāna, self-originated wisdom )self-originated wisdom), also means a wisdom that comes from your own state, that cannot be created, cannot be shown to you, and comes from oneself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?
Content:


mr. gordo said:
For example, as you know in some of ChNN's practices, there are mantras that are "self-originating"...So how does Dzogchen explain "self-origination" in that context?

Namdrol said:
They arise directly from the sound of dharmatā. For example, song of the vajra is the dgongs pa, samati i.e. transcendence or realization of Samantabhadra.

mr. gordo said:
Thanks Namdrol.  Do you know why this differs in Sarma lineages?

Malcolm wrote:
Mantras in sarma lineages are either invocations of a samboghakāya dimension, like for example the Hevajra mantra, or action mantras.

Dzogchen mantras are not invocations nor are they for actions. They are a direct means of being in in one's primordial state.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: No Proofs of Sucessful Rebirths?&Are Pure Land sutras real?
Content:
Nosta said:
Yes, i agree with Lastlegend: well spoken Rory

Rory, did you have more "evidences" of pure land/Amida/Medicine Buddha existence, besides the ones you told us (about your health problem and healing, etc)?

The ones i had i already told them here. But i can resume it again. I also must tell that in my case they are not exatcly what i would call as "strong" evidence.

Anyway, here goes:

1- There was a time when my recitation was intense and then i had a very detailed dream of something that happened. The dream was about something unprobable to happen and a few hours later it happened. This thing (dream & happen) occured 2 times. And when i saay 2 times i am talking about dreams about very specific and unprobable things.

2- When i do nembutsu i feel some kind of inner peace that i wouldnt consider normal, because its almost like a "physical" peace, peace that is really touching me. I cant explain.

3- I had a physical problem (tinnitus) and maybe because of my recitations (Medicine Buddha mantra) i gor healed. I didnt expect to get healed of such problem, given many aspects of the disease itself. But as i said, i cannot say exactly what was behind the healing process (farmacology? Medicine Buddha Mantra? etc).

Malcolm wrote:
it is said that if one recites the dharani of Bhaisajyaguru Buddha seven times everyday, one will be reborn in Medicine Buddha's pure land.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: How is "Self-Originated" Defined in Dzogchen?
Content:


mr. gordo said:
For example, as you know in some of ChNN's practices, there are mantras that are "self-originating"...So how does Dzogchen explain "self-origination" in that context?

Malcolm wrote:
They arise directly from the sound of dharmatā. For example, song of the vajra is the dgongs pa, samati i.e. transcendence or realization of Samantabhadra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2011 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: How does pleasure arise?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
I hope more people bring their own thoughts to this discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
It is really quite simple, all pleasant, unpleasant and neutral experiences are "retribution" i.e. the ripening of past karmic acts.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2011 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: How does pleasure arise?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All pleasurable, painful and neutral sensations are the ripening of karma.

N


reynard80 said:
Lately, my mind has been full of this question: what is pleasure? How does it arise?

How is it possible that I experience an object as either pleasent or not-pleasant? If all objects are inherently empty, there can be no inherent pleasure or non-pleasure in objects.

Then, is pleasure only a thought of the mind? I.e. I experience an object, then *think* 'this is pleasant', resulting in a 'pleasant' feeling? If so, why do I think some objects as pleasant, and others as non-pleasant?

Of course, these questions are probably ultimately irrelevant, but they have been bothering me for some time now. Maybe someone can shed some light, in terms of buddhist philosophy.

Thank you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2011 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
benchen said:
The female tulku Jetsuma in USA is doing it.

She is fake tulku or real tulku ?

And some high tulkus , nyingma yogi lama with consorts whom  I do not want to name here  , is ordaining monks and nuns.

You guys information are not updated.


Malcolm wrote:
They are not real monks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2011 at 7:12 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
catmoon said:
A couple of additional thoughts...


As our world steadily becomes faster, noisier, and more hectic, the monasteries may become the only places one can go for some spiritual peace.


Malcolm wrote:
Spiritual peace comes from freedom from afflictions, not from buildings, monastic or otherwise.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2011 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Community in Western Buddhism
Content:
Jñāna said:
The Ugraparipṛcchā Sūtra also goes on at some length instructing the householder Ugra on how a householder bodhisattva should reflect upon the many drawbacks and faults of the household life, as well as how to reflect in order to develop detachment from one's wife and son. None of the reflections are flattering (to put it mildly).

All the best,

Geoff


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, I have read it. But attitudes of Buddhists and the attitude of the Buddha are two different things:



Husband & wife, both of them
having conviction,
being responsive,
being restrained,
living by the Dhamma,
addressing each other
with loving words:
they benefit in manifold ways.
To them comes bliss.
Their enemies are dejected
when both are in tune in virtue.
Having followed the Dhamma here in this world,
both in tune in precepts & practices,
they delight in the world of the devas,
enjoying the pleasures they desire.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.055.than.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband:


(i) by being courteous to her,
(ii) by not despising her,
(iii) by being faithful to her,
(iv) by handing over authority to her,
(v) by providing her with adornments.
"The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways:


(i) she performs her duties well,
(ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants[10]
(iii) she is faithful,
(iv) she protects what he brings,
(v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties.
"In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West covered by him and made safe and secure.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

V
Mother, father well supporting,
Wife and children duly cherishing,
Types of work unconflicting:
This, the Highest Blessing.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/posting.php?mode=quote&f=77&p=41238 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course there are other texts in which the Buddha criticizes remaining as a lay person.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2011 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: Community in Western Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
This is what he said in an apocryphal Chinese sutra.

Huseng said:
It is no more apocryphal than the Dhammapada. It is a collection of quotes from various scriptures.

We translate jing 經 as sūtra, but in this period just referred to scriptures of any sort like that Daode-jing 道德經.

It is just as legit as the Dhammapada.


Malcolm wrote:
Has anyone done analysis to track the various passages in it?

Anyway, it depends on who the audience is. For monks, the Buddha had one message. For lay people, another.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2011 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Community in Western Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Buddha supported the institution of marriage.

N

Huseng said:
He also said wife and child were like the jaws of a tiger.

From the Sūtra in Forty-Two Sections: 佛言：人繫於妻子、寶宅之患，甚於牢獄、桎梏、鋃鐺。牢獄有原赦，妻子情欲雖有虎口之禍，己猶甘心投焉，其罪無赦。
The Buddha said, “The misfortune of being tied to wife, child, treasures and estate is greater than being in prison fettered and in chains. In prison there are pardons given. The feelings for wife and child, though as dangerous as a tiger's mouth, one willingly leaps into it. That fault is without pardon.”


Malcolm wrote:
This is what he said in an apocryphal Chinese sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2011 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Community in Western Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddha supported the institution of marriage.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2011 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Rigpa vs. Nature of Mind
Content:
Pero said:
From my memory the discussion was more about whether or not it's good to translate sems nyid with "nature of mind"...

Namdrol said:
That's ok, sems nyid is a translation of cittatā or citta dharmatā.

Pero said:
Well yes but it seemed to depend on context, sometimes it means byang chub sems. If sems nyid were just "nature of mind" always, then there is a problem when there is sems kyi rang bzhin (=nature of mind). It seems to me that translating both as nature of mind brings us into a bit of a pickle.

Malcolm wrote:
English sometimes lacks good equivalents.

Depending one context, sometimes sems nyid means "the mind itself".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2011 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Military jobs: Which are less unethical?
Content:


Namdrol said:
The main point is whether you actually agree with the goals that a military force has in mind. From a Buddhist POV, if you do, you share in all the negative actions of the whole army. This is very well detailed in the karma chapter in the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam.

N

lukejmo said:
Since I don't have the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam handy at the moment, could you cite that? What is the implication of this? I think I've heard of this group-karma thing, and I always wondered about what the exact requirements were. What about tax-payers? What about people who are in the military and disagree? I could see how if you had a mob of people running around that killed someone, sure, that'd be easy to figure out.

If some one sees the goal of a military as just keeping the peace and protecting people (naive, sure) what then?


Malcolm wrote:
The idea is that if you are in a military force and you approve of its goals i.e. killing people, you share in all of the karma of all acts of killing multiplied by the number of people in that army. So if you are in a million man army, and you approve of the goals of that army, every time one person is killed by that army, the karma for you is multiplied by a million, thus it becomes very heavy karma indeed.

Taxpayers are generally forced to pay taxes under duress or threat. However, if you are cheerfully sending in your taxes the govt. and support its goals in the army it supports, then also you share that karma X however many people are supporting that army whether civilian or not.

It is hard to be a conscientious objector in the military, but yes, I suppose you could belong to an army and yet be completely opposed to its overall mission.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2011 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
People don't have time for numerous commentaries.

N

Clarence said:
I have read you saying this before, and I think that is why you are propagating Dzogchen practice so strongly. However, you managed to get a Lopon degree, become a Tibetan doctor, and do a 3-year retreat and you still have 30 yrs of practice left. So, don't you think that if people were really willing, they would find the time? Even for the commentaries.

Malcolm wrote:
I have had the good fortune to have more time than most people.


Clarence said:
Do you really think that people who don't have time to engage in study and regular vajrayana practice will be able to make the time to practice dzogchen (asked in serious, non-argumentative tone)? Now, I know in Dzogchen it is all about one thing, but before recognition, still a lot of time needs to be spend on regular, sitting practice, no?

Malcolm wrote:
That is not how things are done in Dzogchen in general -- for example, you may recall that ChNN's text he taught recently recommended doing many very short sessions moving from one place to another rather than staying in a single place i.e. sitting here for five minutes, there for five minutes, moving frequently. This is completely opposite of how meditation is done in most other schools, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2011 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: Rigpa vs. Nature of Mind
Content:
Clarence said:
I know you don't want to rehash your old argument, but maybe you could say what you think is important to know for us relative newbies?


Malcolm wrote:
The nature of the mind is one thing, rigpa or vidyā is used in several different ways in Dzogchen texts. It is defined in as many as five different ways in the Vima snying thig teachings.

So, vidyā/rig pa cannot be simply reduced to "the nature of the mind".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2011 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: Rigpa vs. Nature of Mind
Content:
Pero said:
From my memory the discussion was more about whether or not it's good to translate sems nyid with "nature of mind"...


Malcolm wrote:
That's ok, sems nyid is a translation of cittatā or citta dharmatā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2011 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
benchen said:
dzoki

you have been ill -informed.

Lay high tulkus lamas do ordained monks and nuns.

This is disallowed in Mahayana and Theravada but in Varjayana , they are doing it.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they don't. If they claim to, they are frauds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
If you want liberation in this life, at the time of the bardo, it is much better to practice Vajrayāna.

There is no point at all in this time of the Kali yuga to waste one's effort with practice connected with lower vehicles at all.

Jñāna said:
The Tibetans embedded all of the  eight lower yānas within ngöndro, kyerim, and dzogrim. There are numerous commentaries on everything from the four thoughts that turn the mind, on up. Sachen Kunga Nyingpo's Parting From the Four Attachments was one of the first teachings I ever received, followed shortly thereafter by Atiśa's Jewel Rosary and Gampopa's Jewel Ornament. All precious teachings which I still reflect upon; which help one to simplify this life in order to be able to engage in solitary practice.

All the best,

Geoff

Malcolm wrote:
These things are all fantastic. More fantastic still is to get to the essence of the vehicle beyond cause and result.

People don't have time for numerous commentaries.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Unknown said:
How then will the practice not result in rebirth in higher realms or the pure lands?  Are you denying karma or denying that the practice will deposit positive seeds in one's mindstream?

Malcolm wrote:
Causes of lower realms are many, cause of higher realms are few. Therefore, one needs a more direct method than fast day vows, etc.

If you do not want to take rebirth in six lokas for example, then it is much more effective to practice purification of six lokas than taking posadha vows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
kirtu said:
This will not cause one to be reborn in pure lands, nor will it assure rebirth in higher realms.

I'm mildly taken aback at this - if you take the eight vows according to the Tibetan ritual an mean it then you are raising bodhicitta, accumulating merit, etc (the etc are the advantages listed in mt post on this minus the result of being reborn in the Pure Lands for the sake of argumentation) - it can be argued that the ritual is mildly esoteric on the basis of the dharani of pure morality recitation and people are instructed to view themselves taking the vows in the presence of all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and can view themselves as taking the vows from them (making the force of the vows stronger).  You are also supposed to do purification practice, usually the 35 Buddhas Recitation.

The power of this sincere practice has been describe as a cause of rebirth in higher realms or the pure lands (rebirth in higher or lower realms isn't that difficult as Shakyamuni outlined numerous methods and results of practices).  Shakyamni said that the result of doing the uposatha practice is virtuous and would result in higher rebirth and better circumstances including rebirth the deva realms.  The teachings concerning nyung nay practice clearly describe the result as a fast track to the pure lands (although not a definite track) and a major component of the nyung nay practice is holding the eight vows, and doing 35 Buddha purification (and it's other major component is praise to Avalokiteshvara).

Malcolm wrote:
You just answered your own question.


kirtu said:
If everyone were  to just do dzogchen then we run the risk of making the same mistake the very great masters of the Kamakura period made.  And for people with dzogchen practice then any activity can be proper dzogchen practice anyway (not any activity but any dharmic activity).
Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
If everyone were to just do Dzogchen then their practice would be perfect, without needing anything else at all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Atisha wanted to teach the Dohas of Indian Mahasiddhas like Saraha. But he was prevented from doing so by Dromton.

kirtu said:
Dromtom muzzled Atisha !?  Malcolm that strains credulity.  How do you muzzle a mahashiddha?  Given the standard teaching practice of the time Atisha could have just taught other people the dohas and kept the bodhicitta emphasis lineage with Dromton.  Did he do something like that?

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
read Davidson. He explains the situation between Dromton and Atisha quite well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:


kirtu said:
Did Milarepa elaborate on this?  Dohas by Atisha - are they recorded?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
No, he just described Dromton as a great māra.

Atisha wanted to teach the Dohas of Indian Mahasiddhas like Saraha. But he was prevented from doing so by Dromton.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:


kirtu said:
Living like a gomi has the following force:  if one is sincere and serious then it helps purify karma, it is a method of merit accumulation, it is a method of wisdom accumulation, and deposits seeds into one's mindstream that will bear positive fruit esp. wrt encountering the Dharma in the future lives and reengaging in practice and at death one will be reborn in higher realms or in Pure Buddha Lands (and rebirth in the Pure Lands is the primary benefit for oneself in this practice).

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
This will not cause one to be reborn in pure lands, nor will it assure rebirth in higher realms.

If you want liberation in this life, at the time of the bardo, it is much better to practice Vajrayāna.

There is no point at all in this time of the Kali yuga to waste one's effort with practice connected with lower vehicles at all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Jñāna said:
Sure, but not for lamrim and lojong, and so on, or even group pūja recitation. All of these teachings and practices can benefit from the challenges of living in a monastic house of mirrors.

Geoff

Namdrol said:
Not very partial to the Kadampa approach.

kirtu said:
Well that's it in a nutshell.  The Dharma has many flavors.  Some of those flavors will disappear over time.  You don't like the Kadampa (Atisha) flavor and do primarily like the Dzogchen flavor.  Okay.  But while dzogchen is unexcelled excellence, it's not a flavor for everyone.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Milarepa once quipped that Dromton was a great māra who interrupted the proper propagation of Dharma in Tibet. Definitely, the historical record shows that Atisha was far more interested in teaching dohas and so on. But Dromton interfered with this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Throw Out Buddhist Philosophy / Phenomenology / Psychology
Content:
tamdrin said:
There is a line in Gongchig that says "tsad ma dre bu zab mo stong nyi ton" or something like that.. meaning the result of valid cognition is the profound-emptiness.  All that means is that valid cognition leads to a theory of emptiness. No where does Jigten Sumgon say that this is sufficient for Buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
"The result of pramana is shows profound emptiness."

What else leads to Buddhahood other than profound emptiness?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Throw Out Buddhist Philosophy / Phenomenology / Psychology
Content:
adinatha said:
Logic is errant.


Namdrol said:
According to Jigten Sumgon, logic leads to Buddhahood. I don't agree -- but his views about Buddhist logic informed the Gelugpa enthusiasm for logic.


tamdrin said:
I don't think this is true.  Why don't you just tell us where Jigten Sumgon said this.  The Gelukpa enthusiasm for logic and epistemology came from Dharmakirti and Dignaga, ancient Indian masters etc.. I don't think it was any specialty of Jigten Sumgon.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, Tsongkhapa learned most of his logic while he stayed at Drigung. There is a statement in Gongchik where Jigten Sumgon describes Buddhahood being achieved by a perfect pramana.

Thus there was a tradition at Drigung about the efficacy of Buddhist pramana for attaining awakening based in the second chapter of the Pramanasiddhi.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: Rigpa vs. Nature of Mind
Content:
heart said:
But in the Dzogchen teachings (the Menagkde) one also say that mind (sem), our thoughts and emotions, is the expression of awareness (rigpa).

Malcolm wrote:
This is misleading.

In Upadesha, mind is variously said to be the mixture of the rtsal energy of vidyā and the karmic vāyus, the vāyu itself, and so on. Mind has a different location in the body than vidyā; different pathways than vidyā, and so on.

Whereas in sems de the nature of the mind is considered to be bodhicitta.

So this question really does depend on what Dzogchen teaching one is discussing it cannot be simplistically reduced to the statement "rigpa is the nature of the mind."

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2011 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
catmoon said:
People accumulate the most merit by meditating correctly.

N

.....aaaand of course nobody meditates as correctly as the average monastic....

Malcolm wrote:
That is completely false.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Jñāna said:
Sure, but not for lamrim and lojong, and so on, or even group pūja recitation. All of these teachings and practices can benefit from the challenges of living in a monastic house of mirrors.

Geoff

Malcolm wrote:
Not very partial to the Kadampa approach.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Jñāna said:
I've stayed in a number of monasteries and lived in one for a couple of years (as a layman). This type of communal life is challenging on many levels, including the almost total lack of privacy much of the time. But a balanced monastic model is one which supports solitude within community (regular daily silent group sitting in addition to chanting, etc., group silent retreats, as well as periodic individual solitary retreat, and so on).
Geoff


Malcolm wrote:
I don't like group retreats. Too much bullshit.

"Communal Dharma" living is not for me. Not very interested in supporting such communities either. But people who are into it are free to do as they please.

Solitary retreat is the only way, for me.

I don't mind collective practices now and again, ganapujas etc.

But the monastic model is quite foreign to Dzogchen teachings, oil and water.

There is also no monastic tradition in Dzogchen. Dzogchen, unlike Mahāmudra and Indian Vajrayāna in general, did not develop in proximity to monastic centers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Unknown said:
You're promoting an extreme supersessionist ideology.

Malcolm wrote:
Take it up with Garab Dorje.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:


Jñāna said:
... and goes on to refute the claim that it's unnecessary for householders to practice in solitude.

Geoff

Malcolm wrote:
I never stated that doing solitary retreats was not important. Of course it is important. I just question your definition of "sustained".

But we do not need to support monastic institutions for this purpose. Monasteries are hardly solitary, and the ratio of monks who actually do real retreat in monastic retreat centers to the number who are just there to do rituals and so on is very low. I am not saying "don't support monasteries" but I am pointing out that the reality of monastic life is quite different from the western fantasy of monastic life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: Military jobs: Which are less unethical?
Content:


lukejmo said:
I can't imagine how meditation would make you a better killer.

Malcolm wrote:
It makes you more relaxed over all and better able to handle intense stress, for example, fire fights.

lukejmo said:
, your statement would imply that great yogins and meditation masters are the most effective combat force known to man.

Malcolm wrote:
Zen practice and Samurai culture in Japan were closely interlinked.




Huifeng said:
So, please, dissuade me from chaplaincy! Tell me I'm wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
The main point is whether you actually agree with the goals that a military force has in mind. From a Buddhist POV, if you do, you share in all the negative actions of the whole army. This is very well detailed in the karma chapter in the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 8:15 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Also Dzogchen and tantric teachings do not require a monastic Sangha for support. During most eons when Dzogchen was taught, it was taught separately from any kind of sutric teaching at all.

Jñāna said:
This kind of dzogchen-centric viewpoint is problematic for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that the vast majority of Buddhists in the history of the Buddha's dispensation never heard of dzogchen...

Malcolm wrote:
So what? That is their lack of fortune. Now they have a chance to hear about it, and it they are interested, practice it. And from this Dzogchen centric POV, a monastic Sangha is not necessary for the Dharma. It also was not necessary during Sikhin's dispensation. He had no monastic Sangha. On the other hand, even though Buddha himself mentions Sikhin, etc. there is no reason for any contemporary Buddhist to submit to Buddha's mythology of the four or seven past Buddhas, unless of course they choose to.

Jñāna said:
and to this day this dzogchen narrative would not be accepted as authoritative by many (most) Buddhist traditions in East Asia and SE Asia.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, so what? This is just a question of authority and as we know, that lies in oneself.

Jñāna said:
Even in Tibet the historicity of the dzogchen tantras was questioned.

Malcolm wrote:
In India the historicity of Mahayana sutras were questioned. In Tibet, the historicity of Kalacakra was also considered suspect.  Again, so what?

Jñāna said:
Therefore there is no reason whatsoever for any contemporary Buddhist to submit to this particular mythological narrative.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no reason for any contemporary Buddhist to submit to any mythological narrative of any kind other than personal choice.

Now then, back to what I was saying. When all is said and done, the only teaching that will be left and widespread will be Dzogchen teachings. That will be the Dharma which people will know and which will have survived. The reason is very simple. Dzogchen is the real essence of Dharma, the vehicle beyond cause and effect.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: Rigpa vs. Nature of Mind
Content:


heart said:
Not right, nature of mind is rigpa at least in a Nyingma  context. Check out Longchenpa.

/magnus


Namdrol said:
This is more according to sems sde. Man ngag sde is a bit different.

heart said:
It is not that different since also in Semde the differentiation between rigpa and sem is also of critical importance.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Hi MAgnus:

We already had this discussion on e-sangha. Pointless to rehash it again. Believe whatever you like.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 9:49 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:


kirtu said:
As KDL says in notes in a sadhana: "save as many as you can".  I think we have to do the best we can on this point esp. as the 21st century is clearly becoming as much a river of blood as the 20th was.  Just little drops of Dharma can help many people I think.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Best way to save others is to become realized yourself, like KDL. Otherwise, it is not much use trying to help anyone in more than a temporary way.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
kirtu said:
People raised in bad societies, or with bad teachers, or in bad historical situations.  People in Nazi Germany, or Poland during WWII, Serbska and Croatia predominately during the 1990;s, Anguilimala, Rwanda, any country during wars or anywhere during economic depressions, anyone raised in a mind controlling situation dominated by others (there is a short teaching about this by Asanga).
Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Dharma will never exist in these places with these conditions. So what's the point of even bringing it up?

Angulimala acheived Arhatship very quickly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 9:23 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
kirtu said:
That's quite different from actually not having been practiced.  It's a point of Indian Buddhism that didn't get copied in some form to Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
They were never practiced in our ordination lineage, Mulasarvastivada.


kirtu said:
Some people really don't know that killing is wrong.  American's and countless other societies enshrine killing one's enemies as a virtue.  History is replete with this.

Malcolm wrote:
Those people don't generally take Buddhist vows. They are not even Buddhist

kirtu said:
Similarly for all the other five precepts.  You may not have needed moral instruction on this but really many people in many societies really do.

Malcolm wrote:
Listen, you cannot fix samsara. You will never convince everyone to stop killing.

kirtu said:
Then the practice of the eight vows is a mildly ascetic practice and comes directly from Shakyamuni Buddha over his previous lives.  It is an ancient Indian pre-Buddhist practice adapted for Shakyamuni's teaching.  And the upshot of the practice is to accumulate merit and to raise mindfulness of body, voice and mind.

Malcolm wrote:
It is something quite relative. If you want to do posadha fast day vows, great. If you want to be a monk, fine. But it is not essential. It is not essential to accumulating merit, and it is not essential to realization. If it was, all Buddhas would have taught Vinaya etc., but they do not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 8:49 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa vs. Nature of Mind
Content:
Nosta said:
Is rigpa = nibbana?


Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 8:48 AM
Title: Re: Throw Out Buddhist Philosophy / Phenomenology / Psychology
Content:
adinatha said:
You've been grossly misinformed. The Drikung Kagyu lineage is the experience lineage of nonconceptual dharmakaya realization. Lord Jigten Sumgon teaches that the dharmakaya is beyond logic, and that buddhahood arises from lineage blessings and practice, not logical reasoning.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, you just have not studied as much about Drikung as you would like us to believe.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 8:47 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:


kirtu said:
Vasubandhu where?

Malcolm wrote:
Karma chapter. He mentions them, and then points out they do not exist in Sarvastivada and its offshoots.

kirtu said:
Sapan in the "Three Vows"?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, he points they never existed in Tibet.

kirtu said:
Even though the Sravaka schools assert vows as a physical thing

Malcolm wrote:
Only Vaibhashika. Sautrantikas reject theory of avijñapti.

kirtu said:
the whole point of vows are to practice mindfulness.  They are an aid to mindfulness.  That is their purpose.
Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
It is better to just be mindful. Vows don't really help mindfulness - it is a myth that they do. I never needed a vow not to kill. Once I decided killing was a bad thing, I stopped killing things. Taking a vow of not killing did not make me better at it. Etc.

The difference we are having is this. I don't think that these things are really helping people. You have a more conservative take on it. But I don't think vows are that essential. Not harming others, helping others, and realizing the nature of our minds. This includes all vows of three yānas. There are no vows not included in this. So who needs more than this? No one.

N



N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 6:57 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:


kirtu said:
It's not made up at all.  It's mentioned in Kongtrul's "Ethics" and it's also mentioned as a possibility in every Sakya overview of pratimoksha vows I have ever been at (taking the eight vows for an extended period or life and the phrase "like how Chandragomin lived" is often explicitly added).

Malcolm wrote:
It is rejected by Vasybandhu and also Sapan points out there is no Gomi ordination. Sakyas also ordain "nuns" even though Gorampa explicitly rejects the practice as corrupt.



kirtu said:
That's true.  That's my point.  People really do need the vows.  Most people can't jump into Ati mode immediately.

Malcolm wrote:
That's up to them. If they want to, they can.


kirtu said:
Thus the vows free people from negative karma and negative behavior that would otherwise tend to keep them from developing inwardly and really meditating.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. They actually make negative behavior heavier in karma since no one was ever prevented from engaging in negative behavior by a vow. Mindfulness is what prevents negative behavior, not vows.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Urgyen Chodron said:
So you can all say that these sources are bogus.

Malcolm wrote:
The Trimondi book is a smear job. But you have decided to believe it. That, at this point, is your problem.



N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa vs. Nature of Mind
Content:
Hayagriva said:
Is rigpa a term that's even used much in semde? Seems that semde talks about chang chub sem.


Malcolm wrote:
No it is not used that much in primary sems sde texts, but is used more in commentaries on those texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:


Urgyen Chodron said:
This thread has made it clear to me that there is a lot of truth to The free online book

Malcolm wrote:
I am telling you that the Rottgen's do not understand this tradition and have twisted things to show them in the worst possible light.

But go ahead and believe whatever suits you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 5:31 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:


kirtu said:
It doesn't matter as Chandragomin is the model and people cannot be prohibited from privately taking the eight vows daily on their own or, if their teacher supports it taking the eight vows permanently, and thus reestablishing the tradition in a de facto manner.

Malcolm wrote:
It has no force. It would be a made up ordination. No lineage. Therefore, useless. But if you want to take the fast day vows everyday for your whole life, I won't stop you.

kirtu said:
But anyway we are living in a time where many people go through a mini-rudra period where they emphasize practice and still pursue an outwardly worldly life and don't really tame their minds or behaviour although they honestly think they are practising correctly.  The restraint of the precepts is still very much needed.

Malcolm wrote:
If you need a vow, take a vow. If you don't, no point.

kirtu said:
Then for monastics they are the models of Buddha and should be modelling all of their behaviour on the behaviour of Buddha, being a model for everyone.

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot model the Buddha through characteristics since the Buddha is not something definable by characteristics.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa vs. Nature of Mind
Content:
tamdrin said:
all this distinction is not really necessary.. Even the distinction between sem and rigpa is just a method, provisional at best.  What we need is direct perception (ngon gsum)


Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, the differentiation between sems and rigpa is critical. Not just method.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa vs. Nature of Mind
Content:
Clarence said:
Is there a difference? Or just a different way of translating things?

I don't know how much we can ask here about specific ways of looking at the mind or not, so I will wait with those.

Hayagriva said:
It's my understanding that the Nyingma separate mind, the nature of mind and rigpa. The nature of mind is emptiness whereas rigpa is emptiness, clarity and energy. From what I can tell this differentiation isn't made in in more informal teachings where the discussion is just about sem and rigpa.

heart said:
Not right, nature of mind is rigpa at least in a Nyingma  context. Check out Longchenpa.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
This is more according to sems sde. Man ngag sde is a bit different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
If someone really has the wish to be a bhikṣu or a bhikṣuni, they can do that. But in the end, it will not prevent the predicted disappearance of Shakyamuni's Dharma sasana.

kirtu said:
Well no, but as Gelek Rinpoche said there will be ups and downs before the Dharma actually disappears.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
The dharma won't disappear. Dzogchen teachings will be around for much longer than the Buddhist monastic Sangha. In fact, eventually, that is mainly what people will identify as Dharma i.e. Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: rGyud-bzhi' and the Bumshi medical texts
Content:


orgyen jigmed said:
Although I find your arguments plausible, nevertheless the Bon maintains a different position as to the origin of the rGyud bzhi.

Malcolm wrote:
yes.


orgyen jigmed said:
For example, in contrast to your argument in favour that the rGyud bzhi being a translation of an Indian work,

Malcolm wrote:
I never said that. The rgyud bzhi is definitely not a translation of an India work. It is a native Tibetan composition. More importantly, the text itself never pretends to be a translation. Unlike the rgyud chung, the rgyud bshi lacks a translator's colophon in every single edition, of which we have twelve. Not only does it lack a translator's colphon, it lacks a treasure colophon as well. The rgyud chung i.e. the minor tantra, the Amritahridayaguhyaupadesha tantra on the other hand claims to have been written by Candrānanda (the author the major commentary of the Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita) and having been passed in a single lineage from one emanational person to another, found its way into the hands of Yuthog. This text is absolutely the basis for the man ngag rgyud and phyi ma rgyud and their 'bum bzhi corollaries.


orgyen jigmed said:
the Bonpo Ga-rgya Khyung-sprul 'Jigs-med namkha'i rdorje (1897-1957) claims that the rGyud bzhi was written in the Zhang Zhung language.  Whatever your opionion may be to his claim, what is known for certain is that medical texts believed to be of Zhang-zhung origin  have been found among the Dunhuang manuscripts (PT 127), which asserts that it was based on the Zhang-Zhung medical tradition (Karmay, 2009).

Malcolm wrote:
These texts that mention Zhang Zhung do not mention the 'bum gzhi.


orgyen jigmed said:
To reach an understanding how the Bon could have come to such a conclusion, one must consult with the Zhiji...

Malcolm wrote:
gzi gjid is quite late. And I have consulted it. It's discussion of medicine is very limited. It revealed after the rgyud bzhi was composed.

orgyen jigmed said:
What I do find interesting according to this account, is not only that the doctrine of Tonpa Shenrab was spread by "six-great translators" to adjacent countries which included: Zhang-Zhung, Sum-pa (East of Zhang-Zhung), Phrom (Mongolia) China, Kashmir, India and finally Tibet, but that these teachings have also spread to India by Lha-bdags sNgags-grol ; pressumably these included medical knowledge, considering that all cultures have shared ideas of what makes people sick, what makes well and how people can maintain good health through time, and therefore may have also included the Variegated Collections of Therapies (dPyad 'bum Khra bo) and the White and Black Collection of Medicines (sMan 'bum dkar nag), although I must concur that I do not have any evidence in favour or against to further support these claims.

Malcolm wrote:
Ayruveda comes from the Atharva Veda. Not from Tazig. Caraka Samhita is a late commentary  compiled between 200 BCE -- 200 CE, with large and signification portions reconstructed at a later date. The text around which Caraka was compile is a text called Agnivesha tantra.

orgyen jigmed said:
But on the other hand, if this hypothesis is correct, it is not so difficult to understand how traditional medical knowledge and practices could have also entered India from the North (something the proud Indians would not so easily submit), as well as other neighbouring countries.

Malcolm wrote:
it is quite easy to understand northwestern influences on Indian culture i.e. Bactria.

orgyen jigmed said:
This migration could have been part of pastoral adaptation in search of subsistence in different ecological environments. As a result of this process of syncretism with the multi-Hindu cultures and worldviews, Aryuveda, may have evolved as its own tradition. Thus, one must take into consideration this dynamic circular process instead of a static one way process.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no doubt that knowledge spread widely in the Ancient world along trades routes that had been well established for centuries. Who knows what interesting texts were in the library at Alexandria?


orgyen jigmed said:
Another divergance in opinion held by the Bon is that g.Yu-thog Yon-tan mgon-po is considered to be not other then the Bonpo gter ston Khu-tsha Zla-'od (Karmay, 2009). However, as I am neither a scholar nor can I claim any competence in Tibetan Medicine and its history I must remain open to more expert views.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

I find this quite unlikely simply due to the fact that most of the major elements of Yuthog's life and his immediate students are well attested. For example, in the mid-12th century, Chomden Rigpa'i raltri's commentary on the Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita criticized the rgyud bzhi tradition directly, see my blog entry here:

http://www.bhaisajya.net/2008_09_01_archive.html

There are two articles I wrote that bear on our discussion. I did make one mistake in this article that was corrected by Dan Martin. Chebu Trishe is mentioned in the mdo 'dus. This is from the tenth century perhaps. But it is deprecated in Bon because it describes Shenrab as having a human mother and father, etc. It is not as grand as Ziji or Zermig.

Even more importantly, if Yuthog was also known as Khu-tsha Zla-'od, his grandfather was still a direct disciple of Rinchen Zangpo and heard the Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita from that translator. There is no possible way that the explanatory tantra and the 'bum khra bo are not based on Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita.

Basically, Bon claims to origins of brgyud bzhi simply do not stand up to text critical analysis. This is not personal, and I have no axe to grind. Bonpo physicians are just as good as Buddhist ones. We use the same basic text. But the text does not originate in Bon. Even so, if it did, it would still depend on the Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita for many things.

Further, I could give you a hundred words in the brgyud bzhi/'bum bzhi that are direct derivatives from Sanskrit  i.e. tigta (tikta which means bitter in fact in Sanskrit i.e. swertia chirata), shing kun (a Tibetan mispronunciation of hing gu, i.e. asafeotida), Manupatra/puṣkarmūla i.e. inula racemosa etc. I really can go and on and and on. There are very few words in this text from Zhang Zhung language -- hong len (Lagotis brevituba, which may actually be a Chinese word), tre sam, etc., these are just a very few of the few words left over from Shang Shung language in this the rgyud bzhi/'bum bzhi.

Moreover, for example, the sngo 'bum chapter of the explanatory tantra definitely depends on two texts described in my blog article here:

http://www.bhaisajya.net/2009_01_01_archive.html

For the most part, the whole of the Tibetan textual tradition about herbs depends on the two texts described in that article. There are no corresponding Bon sngo 'bums.

Anyway, this is my conclusion and in my opinion, the Bonpos do not have good support for their counter arguments.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Paths of renunciation cannot bear fruit in the Kaliyuga. At best, it is a show for posterity.

kirtu said:
This is the case for most people but most people are not going to even raise interest in entering the sangha.  For those that do their practice can be very beneficial for themselves and for others who have a similar bent but haven't decided to enter the sangha.  And they can remind other people to be virtuous and just remind them of positive values.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Maybe. Most of the people I know who take monastic vows just take vows to create a lack of merit since they cannot keep their vows.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:


kirtu said:
Sure I remember.  Care to show me the expiration date?  Sutra can be read variously on this point.

Malcolm wrote:
About 2500 years.



kirtu said:
A revival of the tradition of Chandragomin in very much in order, IMO.


Malcolm wrote:
The gomi ordination never existed in Tibetan Buddhism or Mulasarvastivada. There is no tradition for it, do cannot be revived.


kirtu said:
Having said that, the merit is still exceeded by monastics and people very much need merit.
Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
People accumulate the most merit by meditating correctly.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Namdrol said:
One should pay attention to what one is doing, that is all presence means. When you can join presence with instant presence, than your presence becomes a truly liberative practice.

Dzogchen practice means you are a) trying to understand Dzogchen practice b) you understand Dzogchen practice and are moving ahead.

Clarence said:
With a., that is listening to the webcasts and practicing the Lojongs, Rushens, Semdzins, and GuruYoga of white A? Do you know whether or not we have the permission to practice those?

With b., well, I will see when the time is right.


Malcolm wrote:
Regarding a) merely by attending a retreat, you have permission. Get the Precious Vase. Study it. Apply it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Especially in this era, bhikṣus and bhikṣunis are museum pieces.

This is the Kali Yuga, monasticism is obsolete.

kirtu said:
No and no.  Pure monasticism in the Kali Yuga esp. is vital to the survival of Buddhism.  And anyway, it is useful for the monastics themselves because of the vast accumulation of merit.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
In case you did not remember, sutric Buddhism as a religion has an expiration date. This is not true of Dzogchen and tantric teachings however. Also Dzogchen and tantric teachings do not require a monastic Sangha for support. During most eons when Dzogchen was taught, it was taught separately from any kind of sutric teaching at all.

As I said however, people are free -- if they want to spend their money supporting monasteries, that is their business. It is not a bad thing to do, of course. I just don't really see much hope in it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen
Content:
tamdrin said:
cool

how long is this text?  Maybe tibetans should become more Chan friendly.  I dont think the Buddha himself would have advocated either the gradual or the instantaneous paths.


Malcolm wrote:
It is about 12 folio sides, not that long. I will probably translate it since it is useful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Also, receiving transmission for the rushens and lojongs and then doing them thoroughly is really important.

Clarence said:
I thought we got that as well? Or are we not allowed to practice them? I don't want to order the wrong booklets.

BTW, just wondering about something: Rinpoche kept saying to be present, which, if I read Namdrol right, just means being mindful. If one is not yet sure about the Instant Presence, then what is one mindful of during daily life? I can imagine that if one is sure about Rigpa, one tries to abide in that state as much as possible. But, if one is not sure, then being mindful is just regular Sutra practice (still useful), so surely there must be something one can mindful of in daily life-- until one has reached a state of certainty--which is still Dzogchen practice?
Hope that is clear enough.
Very happy I attended the webcasts and looking forward to the next.

Malcolm wrote:
One should pay attention to what one is doing, that is all presence means. When you can join presence with instant presence, than your presence becomes a truly liberative practice.

Dzogchen practice means you are a) trying to understand Dzogchen practice b) you understand Dzogchen practice and are moving ahead.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:



Namdrol said:
You've said that in Tibetan medicine spirits can be the cause of illness. In the Tibetan medicine community, is there any sense that such cases are more common than they used to be?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes definitely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
When I read ancient predictions attributed to Padmsambhava and so on, I see them born out in the reality of our world. People think that the mass genocides of the 20th century, i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Armenian genocide, etc. cannot happen again. They can, and they will.

We have strange new diseases, etc. I could go on but it would be boring.

Huseng said:
Is this in reference to the text outlined here?

http://www.khandro.net/stupa_Boudhnath_KD.htm#kaliyuga " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Malcolm wrote:
Not this specific one, but yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


freethinker108 said:
Lama Ole is mostly disliked and smeared in the US because he supports Karmapa Trinlay Thaye Dorje and thwarted an attempt by the Shambala organization to co-opt the seat of the Karmapas after the 16th passed in the 80s.

Malcolm wrote:
No, Ole was disliked before that. Trungpa thought he was an idiot.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
tobes said:
The Muslims I have encountered in various parts of the world have been almost universally good natured, kind, hospitable, charitable.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

tobes said:
They deserve at least not be judged on what a few bad eggs have done. If you do not know their tradition, as I assume neither of us & Ole really do, we have no basis on which to criticise. A basic standpoint of respect is warranted.


Malcolm wrote:
We can respect Islam and not be blind to a Islamic history, both the good parts and the bad parts, and the imperialistic nature of monotheistic religions in general.

Religion, in the end, is about money and power.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2011 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
We have to be realistic.

Anders Honore said:
'Being realistic' would tend to imply not taking prophecies or ancient historical classification as established fact. But you seem to be taking these as your baseline for your monastic prescription.


Malcolm wrote:
When I read ancient predictions attributed to Padmsambhava and so on, I see them born out in the reality of our world. People think that the mass genocides of the 20th century, i.e. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Armenian genocide, etc. cannot happen again. They can, and they will.

We have strange new diseases, etc. I could go on but it would be boring.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:


Urgyen Chodron said:
What interests me is that often on these boards it is denied that this book has any validity, and yet in this thread it is obvious to me that it does.


Malcolm wrote:
The problem with the Trimondi book is that it is a vilification of HHDL and Tibetan Buddhism in general. They take bits of facts out of context and then distort them with lies.

it is not a serious work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[quote="tamdrin"]


I just read it. It is a very nice short text. It has many citations from many different sutras, especially the Lanka, proving that Cig car is a superior method to the gradual path. I translate a bit of it below. It uses many sūtras translated from Chinese which raises the interesting possibility that Indian Dzogchen masters were sympathetic to Chan in general.

This is one of the nicest citatations, taken from the Arya-candragarbha-prajñāpāramitā-mahāyāna-sūtra:

Just as a spark
cannot dry an ocean,
likewise, relative truth
cannot dry one's afflictions,
what need to mention those of others?

Also it has a nice take on practicing the six paramitas, etc.

If it is said by someone 'It is necessary to practice the six perfections and so on', the explanation for that in the Vajrasamadhi sūtra is:
"The six perfections are all included in the emptiness of the mind" and in the Brahmaviśeṣacintipariprīcchā sūtra: "No thought is generosity. Non-abiding is discipline. Total non-differentiation is patience. Not accepting or rejecting is diligence. Lack of desire is samadhi. Not serving is prajñā. The Lankāvatara sūtra states: "For as long as the mind is engaged, for that long one is a worldly materialist". Since mere generosity and so on exist for thirtikas, if one follows signs, there is the fault of not leaving samsara. 

Someone claims "There is no greater merit than reciting and copying [sūtras]. The explanation for that in the Samadhirāja sūtra is "If someone, very faithful to awakening and has regret towards the conditioned, should take seven steps in direction of retreat, the merit is supreme over that [of reciting and copying texts]." The Mahāuṣnịṣa sūtra states: "Meditating on stainless prajñā for a single day or night has infinitely more merit than reading and reciting the sūtra division of dharma for as many eons as there are atoms." If it is asked why,it is said "In order to be far from birth and death" but this is not said of reciting and copying the sūtras.

Someone claims "There is no method of benefitting sentient beings in non-conceptual meditation." The explanation for that is in the Prajñāpāramitā sūtra: "Subuhuti,here, dwelling in the three samadhis of a bodhisasattva mahasattva and a sentient being engaging conceptuality, those are placed in emptiness." A sentient being engage in signs joined to signs. A sentient being who aspires for a result is joined to the aspiration. Subhuti, in the same way a bodhisattva mahasattva is engaged in perfect wisdom and dwells in three samadhis, and totally ripens sentient beings." Therefore, the benefit of sentient being is performed by non-conceptuality. 

Demonstrating the dharma through signs is the work of māra and is a companion of sin. The Buddhakośa sūtra states "One who does not understand the dharma who demonstrates it to others causes sentient beings to be born in hell." If it is asked why it is because they are demonstrating the dharma incorrectly. "Explaining dharma incorrectly" means "demonstrating through things and signs", therefore, sentient beings are benefitted without being perceived.

Some one claims "There is no non-conceptual confession of sins". The explanation for that is in the Bhricaphulu sūtra: If one wishes to purify through confession, sit straight, gaze properly, and look at reality correctly [yang dag la yang dag lta], having seen reality, one is liberated. This is the supreme purification through confession."  Therefore if one sits with an unmoving mind it is said to be the supreme purification through confession."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:



Namdrol said:
That is Surya Suddhanta. Not really in step with Buddhist cycles of time.  In any case, it is obviously the Kali Yuga now.

Huseng said:
Sure, but at what point did Buddhists start recognizing a kaliyuga to begin with? There is no mention made of kaliyuga anywhere in East Asian Buddhism, though the idea is clearly there in Tibetan Buddhism. Indian time cycles (kaliyuga, satyayuga, etc...) seem to have been adopted by Buddhists rather than innovated by them. The Buddha is not on record having taught them either.


Malcolm wrote:
We generally consider in Tibetan Buddhism the kali yuga more or less starts with the last 500 years of the Dharma. We term this time period, rtsod ldan, "the time of war".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
dakini_boi said:
haha, well yes, why not, a certificate would be nice!

but seriously, from reading about dzogchen I understand that direct pointing-out from a teacher is absolutely necessary. - however, my ability to "rest in the natural state" seems no better or worse than before watching the webcast.  so my question was to clarify that I had indeed received "pointing out."  Not that I had particular expectations, but it seems as if having a master like ChNN explain dzogchen in a live webcast is not really qualitatively different than reading his book or seeing a video.  I recognize that this view is most likely due to my own ignorance, but I just want to be clear on what the process is about - since the webcast only broadcasts one way, i must therefore post my questions in this community.


Malcolm wrote:
You received permission to meditate on Dzogchen to best of your capacity and to practice Guru yoga, the main practice of Dzogchen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 8:54 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Namdrol said:
...I have been to Italy. In Tuscany, Catholicism is dead. It is completely Socialist there...

gregkavarnos said:
And you will see those same socialists in church every sunday morning.  Guaranteed!  And if they are high level socialists politicos they will be sitting in the front row.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.




gregkavarnos said:
But the last gasp of a dying person does not mean they are alive. Christianity was destroyed by science. No matter how much there may be come reactionary elements that won't let go.
Last time I checked christianity was the religion with the highest number of believers globally.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in Africa, South America and in Asia.

gregkavarnos said:
As for those other places, no. I have no been there. But that does not mean Christianity is vital there either.
Reminds me of kids that think if they close their eyes others can't see them.  Oh it is vital my friend.  VERY vital.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

We can ask Dechen -- how vital is Catholicism in Portugal?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
I grant you that I'm imputing more on your statements than you intend: but that is because you're making rather robust and unfounded claims.

Malcolm wrote:
The Enlightenment did not begin and end in Locke. There is for example Voltaire, every bit as important as Locke. Then there is David Hume, more or less an atheist, etc.


tobes said:
The Enlightenment was deeply theological. When you speak of the turn from Christianity to secularism, probably the most influential figure was Locke, who provided the revolutionary fuel not just for England, but also for both France and America. That is, more than anyone else, he established the liberal political foundations which the west in general leans upon now.

Malcolm wrote:
And also Voltaire, etc.

tobes said:
But go and read him. Read his Two Treatises.

He asserts, plain as day: "God gave the earth to Adam, Adam gave it to human kind."

Malcolm wrote:
Been there, done that.

tobes said:
Hence the conception of natural property rights, and the legitimacy of sovereignty based on protecting them.

...

In this sense, the enlightenment did not destroy Christianity, it has rather successfully embedded its core metaphysical and ethical assumptions into a political-economic structure.

Malcolm wrote:
What you are mistaking for Christianity is Roman property law.

In any event, I will grant you that Pilgrims decision to ethnically cleanse New England, and all encroachments of Europeans on the Americas  took precedent from the Old Testament, just as Israel often asserts its right to Israel in similar terms today.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Urgyen Chodron said:
The person who wrote the book above has no insight in Vajrayāna. He is coming from the Zen tradition. This is fine, but there it is not appropriate to apply his point of view to Vajrayāna.

N
The persons who wrote the book were students of the Dalai Lama and published his texts and then began reading them. Did they misinterpret them?  Another person who followed the Dalai Lama, said, yes, they are sexual. But I don't believe now that all teachers follow the same form of practice that is engaged in by some lineages.

I also do not believe that you have to practice the sex in order to become enlightened as some have said here.

Malcolm wrote:
There are many people who are students of the Dalai Lama who are not Vajrayāna practitioners. That person is a Zen practitioner.

What tamdrin was saying is that there is a Vajrayāna tradition i.e. that our Buddha, in a past life, took a goddess named Tilottama has his partner and achieved awakening together with her through advanced completion stage practices.

You have to understand the theory. The theory is basically that ordinary, sūtrayāna meditation does not still the wind in the body sufficiently so that one can experience the most subtle level of mind which is necessary to recognize emptiness at the most subtle level. One way of accessing a more subtle mind is through the experience of bliss with a partner. The point is not the bliss itself, the point is to go beyond the bliss in a very direct, visceral way, using bliss to go beyond bliss into the union of great bliss and emptiness. This is what deities in yabyum mean i.e. using sensation of bliss to realize emptiness.

When ever you take a major anuttara yogatantra empowerment, you are symbolically introduced to this practice in the higher three empowerments. Also this kind of empowerment is very much connected with the stages of gestation of human beings and that dependent origination. So it is really not about sex per se. Even the use of sexuality in these practices has more to do with reversing dependent origination of one's conception, gestation in the womb, and so on, than anything else.

Whether or not one uses a partner depends a) whether there is a qualified partner (you cannot have just any partner) b) whether one is a lay person or not (this is an area of controversy where some, for example in the Gelug school, claim is it ok for a monk to have a partner solely for this kind of practice, there are differing opinions about this) c) and you ideally should be between 16 and 26 years old for this kind of practice anyway. I have heard it said by Lamas -- when we are this age, no one will teach us this sort of practice and by the time we learn, we are too old to practice it.

There is also another path in Vajrayana, very wide-spread in the Sakya and Gelug school, in the Vajrayogini tradition i.e. the path for those "who do not enjoy desire", equally effective for realizing mahāmudra based solely on meditation and pranāyama (breathing) exercises.

Then there is Kagyu style mahāmudra -- no need for consort practice in general, though it is present in the six yogas of Naropa.

Then there is Dzogchen. In Mahāmudra and Dzogchen use of partners is not considered essential on any level. It is mainly in Sakya and Gelug that use of partners is considered essential. Tsongkhapa himself wrote that without using a partner, complete liberation was impossible.

The great Nyingmapa master, Longchenpa, on the other hand, wrote that such practices were for people who had a lot of lust who needed something to until they got over it and that that such practices where just a diversion in reality -- not invalid, just a diversion and a possible distraction to the direct path of Dzogchen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen
Content:
tamdrin said:
That is probably a dzogchen text, I dont think Vimalamitra taught zen.

Jñāna said:
It's a Sūtrayāna text advocating sudden entry practice.

All the best,

Geoff


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, Lanka-avatara teaches sudden awakening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Paths of renunciation cannot bear fruit in the Kaliyuga. At best, it is a show for posterity.

N

Huseng said:
According to the Sūrya Siddhānta, a key Indian astronomical treatise, kaliyuga started on February 18th, 3102 BCE. This would mean nobody's practice of renunciation in Shakyamuni's Sangha has bore fruit at any point? Why did the Buddha teach it if it would not bear fruit?


Malcolm wrote:
That is Surya Suddhanta. Not really in step with Buddhist cycles of time.  In any case, it is obviously the Kali Yuga now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Not necessarily.

Jñāna said:
The vast majority of practitioners are not "Indrabhūti" types.

Malcolm wrote:
They don't need to be.





Jñāna said:
Whether you're wumming or not, there's no need to propagate this attitude. All supports -- including the monastic lineages -- are helpful. Far better to emphasize this than dismiss the paths of renunciation with blanket statements.

Malcolm wrote:
Paths of renunciation cannot bear fruit in the Kaliyuga. At best, it is a show for posterity.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Buddhism has been on the verge of collapse for some centuries.

Institutions, in the end, are always about power and money.

N

Huseng said:
So if monasticism is obsolete as you insist, what do you suggest? We do away with it or try to revive it so that the Buddha's Dharma in the world is not lost just yet?

Malcolm wrote:
People will do as they please, of course.

If someone really has the wish to be a bhikṣu or a bhikṣuni, they can do that. But in the end, it will not prevent the predicted disappearance of Shakyamuni's Dharma sasana.

We have to be realistic.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
This is the Kali Yuga, monasticism is obsolete.


Huseng said:
Some weeks ago you stated the following at https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3681&p=32883&hilit=namdrol+discipline#p32873:
From the point of the view of the spirit of the thing, perhaps -- but standards must be maintained. There are many people who are capable of upholding their vows -- so it is not impossible. Since there are such people, I think it is important their discipline be recognized and honored -- and it is not honored by allowing just anyone to call themselves or demand they themselves be treated as a fully ordained person just because they wish to have that status. People you are talking about won't care one way or another what they are called. But Bhikshus are the ambassadors of Shakyamuni Buddha. When his monastic sangha disappears, his dharma will be on the verge of collapsing.
Is there not a contradiction between what you said now and then?

If we do away with monasticism, will not the dharma then be on the verge of collapse? If it already is on the verge of collapse, then shouldn't strengthening the monastic institutions be encouraged?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism has been on the verge of collapse for some centuries.

Institutions, in the end, are always about power and money.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 3:43 AM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
dakini_boi said:
Hi,
I watched the first couple nights of webcast, but missed it after that cause it was interfering with my sleep schedule. Could someone please tell me if CNNR gave pointing out yet? If he may give pointing out today or tomorrow I would like to attend, and then watch the replays of what I missed.

Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
The whole retreat was pointing out. Tonight will be general advice and lungs of practices. He finished the text last night.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Especially in this era, bhikṣus and bhikṣunis are museum pieces.

Jñāna said:
The optimal conditions for meditative development are provided by extensive and sustained immersion in intensive retreat practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.

Jñāna said:
The monastic tradition provides the basic supports for this type of lifelong training funded by lay donors.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.


Jñāna said:
Without monastic ordination lineages peopled by well trained homegrown monks and nuns we end up with the type of dharma-lite represented by much of what is being packaged and sold in the West as Zen and Tibetan Buddhism these days.

Malcolm wrote:
That will happen anyway and since religion, including Buddhism, is driven by money, we will just have wealthy monks and nuns just like in Thailand.

This is the Kali Yuga, monasticism is obsolete.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
kirtu said:
It produced radical materialism resulting in capitalism,

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, that was a product of Protestantism.

kirtu said:
communism, nazism and fascism.

Malcolm wrote:
Facism began as a left wind movement, then got religion. Nazism started out in Catholic Bavaria. Communism is another story.


kirtu said:
It also immediately undercut the traditional view of the intrinsic value of the person (as that was viewed in Christianity)

Malcolm wrote:
Where the princes of the Church were lords of all, and everyone had his special place ordained by god? Please.

kirtu said:
and resulted in even more mass murder than before in European history with the excesses of the French Revolution.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that was a result of the reaction against the corruption the Ancient Regime When you starve people for a couple hundred years, they get angry.


kirtu said:
Aggression and hatred found a way to pervert Christianity into a tool of power used by unscrupulous people.  But with the Enlightenment reason was the standard and unscrupulous people found it even easier to pervert to accomplish murder.

Malcolm wrote:
Christianity was perverted by Constantine. Actually, even before that.

kirtu said:
Not so much if they use it to invent enemies and indulge in killing and enslavement.  This is the very real dark side of secular societies.
Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Religious societies are much worse, IMO.


N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Namdrol said:
It was successful in destroying Christianity, intentionally or not.

gregkavarnos said:
You obviously have never been to Italy, Greece, Portugal, Spain, Norway, Ireland...


Malcolm wrote:
I have been to Italy. In Tuscany, Catholicism is dead. It is completely Socialist there.

But the last gasp of a dying person does not mean they are alive. Christianity was destroyed by science. No matter how much there may be come reactionary elements that won't let go.

As for those other places, no. I have no been there. But that does not mean Christianity is vital there either.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: rGyud-bzhi' and the Bumshi medical texts
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,   

There is in the Tibetan Medicine like the Gyud gzhi a colection of foreign elements like allready is mentioned:
Indian, Greece, Chinese and Bon.

All those elements have / own also a whole medical system Like the Chinese have with their TCM and Bon their own medical sources.
But slowly we get some standards in Tibet which results in the TTM we know today. 

If the Gyud gzhi would be a copy of the Bum Gzhi that is not true what is true imo would be that the Gyud gzhi contains certain Bon medical texts.
But if that would be like with the Medical Bon Texts, that is what i doubt (If they would contain Aryuvedic elements etc . But i am not sure and will ask this to some Bon Medicine Geshelas.

Best wsihes
KY

Malcolm wrote:
The rgyud bzhi contains no Bon medical texts. The Bon canon is very poor in specific medical texts, in reality. In reality the Bon canon has only two medical texts. The 'bum bzhi and a modern synthetic (i.e. also using Buddhist sources) commentay by the famed Bonpo doctor and astrologer, Khyung trul Jigme Namkhai Dorje (1897-1956).

By contrast, the Buddhist Tengyur has five volumes of medical texts.

However, there are some uniquely Bon medical texts that do not seem to have survived to the present day. There is a famous commentary on poisons attributed to dbyad bu khri shes mentioned by De'u Mar Geshe Tenzin Phunstog. There are perhaps Bon medical termas not included in the present Bon canon. I don't know. There are doubtless some tantras in the Bon canon which preserve medical knowledge. But the Bonpoa do not have an extensive collection of medical texts in their canon. This is easy to discover. Just read the catalogue.

Khyung trul's commentary  writings seem to be the source of the sustained contention that 'bum bzhi was translated from Zhang Zhung language. However, there are many more loan words from Sanskrit in the rgyud bzhi than from Zhang Zhung language in fact. Couple this with the fact that Tibetans typlically misidentify words taken from any foreign language other than Sanskrit as "Zhang Zhung" these days and you can see there is a whole lot of confusion among Tibetans about the origins of this text.



But the fact is that Bon in general has fairly paltry resources on medicine apart from 'bum bzhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: rGyud-bzhi' and the Bumshi medical texts
Content:
orgyen jigmed said:
In all likelyhood, the 'Bum bzhi is later than the rgyud bzhi and derives from it.
This appears to be  another controversial 'historical' topic, and in all likelihood it seems that it shall always remain an open one.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.


orgyen jigmed said:
Going by the conclusions of Dr. Tsering Thakchoe Drungtso, in his book 'Tibetan Medicine: The healing science of Tibet (2008) it seems thats he does not share your entire opinion.
Code: #
Although he is in agreement that it is almost impossible to credit the orignin of Tibetan Medicine to any one particular source, he notes that while the authorship of the present version of rGyud-bZhi remains highly contraversial, he nevertheless  brings scriptural evidence to support his claims, that the Last Tantra of the present version of the rGyud-bZhi  are derived from the Bon Zhang Zhung texts, such as the sMan-'Bum-dKar-Po, sMan-'Bum-Nag-Po and sMan-'Bum-Khra Bo (p.32).

Malcolm wrote:
He is just giving into a sort of Tibetan nationalism. It is not supported by textual analysis. I have these texts. The 'bum dkar po corresponds with the phyi ma rgyud. The phyi ma rgyud contains the so called las lnga. This presentation of the las lnga (pañcakarma) closely follows the presentation of pañcakarma in the Aṣṭangahridaya Samhita. Embryology and signs of death in both the bshad rgyud and the 'bum khra bo closely follows the Sarira sthana of the Aṣṭangahridaya Samhita. The same goes for chapters of the progress of disease, diet, lifestyle, etc. The similes of the body are straight out of the Yellow Emperor's classic adapted to Tibetan architecture.

All I can say is that  Dr. Tsering Thakchoe Drungtso is either very poorly read in Ayurvedic texts in Tibetan translation or he is suffering of nationalistic bias.

You should examine the research of Yanga Tsarong, the world's leading expert on this subject, who is the dean of students at Lhasa Mentsee Khang. When he was at Harvard, he did line by line comparisons with the rgyud bzhi, 'bum bzhi and the Aṣṭangahridaya Samhita as well as extensive research into the history of Ancient medicine in general. He concluded a) rgyud bzhi was composed either by Yuthog Sarma or a circle of his close disciples. b) 'bum bzhi is quite late comparatively and derivative of rgyud bzhi. He has no axe to grind, he is not anti-bonpo. c) rgyud bzhi depends heavily on Aṣṭangahridaya Samhita and other Indian, Chinese and Galenic sources. c) the text itself in its present form cannot be older than circa 1200 CE. +- 30 years.

The sman dbyad zla ba rgyal po is older, certainly dating to the tenth century if not earlier. Also Dr Ronit Yoeli-Tlalim has shown that the outline of urinalysis in this latter text (which is the source for urinalysis in the rgyud bzhi/'bum bzhi) is matched very closely by the section on urinalysis in the Canon of Medicine by Ibn Sina (980-1037).

I myself, as a translator of these texts, frequently resort to the Tibetan recension of the Aṣṭangahridaya Samhita and so on to resolve issues. Not only this, but there are direct citations of Caraka embedded with both the brgyud bzhi and the 'bum bzhi, also in the called man ngag rgyud or 'bum nag po.  I could go on and on but I don't want to bore you.


orgyen jigmed said:
both Tibetan versions of the Man-ngag-rgyud expands them to eighteen.

Malcolm wrote:
This follows the presentation in the Aṣṭangahridaya Samhita in the Uttarasthana see the bhūta vij̃nānaīya chapter (Murthy,vol three, pg. 36, Krishandas Ayurvedic Series, 2005) "They (bhūtas) are of eighteen kinds..."


orgyen jigmed said:
From this we can conclude that not all medical knowledge originates from Indian sources, but that  some  must have been inherited from the old shamanic Bon.

Malcolm wrote:
Some, but not nearly as much as many people imagine. I agree that not all medicine comes from Indian sources in the brgyud bzhi. Much of the knowledge in the brgyud bzhi, while not Bon in particular, is Tibetan. Some of it is from Greek medicine. For example, the method of finding hairline fractures in the skull comes straight from Hippocrates. Pulse diagnoses ultimately derives from Chinese medicine. Moxa is probably of Tibetan Origin. Bloddletting comes from Ayurveda. The surgical implements chapter in the bshad rgyud/'bum khra bo is borrowed directly from Sushruta down to the name of the implements, their shapes and uses.


orgyen jigmed said:
While summarizing the origin and historical development of Tibetan Medicine, Drungtso (2008) argues: "it can be concluded that the Tibetan Medical system has an indigenous origin and, over time, shared knowledge with many neighbouring cultures and kingdoms, which culminated in the compilations of sMan-'Bum-dkar-Nag-Khra-gSum and the two versions of rGyud-bZhi by Yuthok Yonten Gonpo the Elder and Younger, which reflected medical knowledge of the first millennium BCE, the 8th and 12th centuries of the modern era" (p.32).

Malcolm wrote:
Yuthog Nyingma is a fiction. The sole evidence we have for his existence is the 17th century bio composed by Darmo Menrampa (5th Dalai Lama's personal physician). HIs existence was rejected by doctors at Palpung for this very reason. You can talk about this with Professor Thubten Phuntsog (who himself is an advocate of the 'bum bzhi theory).

Prior to this text, there is not a single mention of an elder Yuthog in any historical document connected with Tibetan medicine. I have done a great deal of primary text research in this area. More importantly, Yuthog's grandfather was a direct disciple of Rinchen Zangpo. As I said, the brgyud bzhi was composed based on the rgyud chung and augmented with theory primarily drawn from the Aṣṭangahridaya Samhita. The 'bum gzhi is a derivative text revealed as Bon terma certainly no earlier than the mid 12th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
It is easier to understand cause and effect by looking at a plant.

Huseng said:
I would agree with that.

Still, some people like studying the Vinaya. It is Buddhadharma and was taught by the Buddha, so we should respect that.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, scholars and monks.

Yes, one can respect it, and one can also understand what is necessary and not necessary. Vinaya is not intrinsic to Buddhadharma. Many Buddhas taught dharma without teaching a Vinaya. Especially in this era, bhikṣus and bhikṣunis are museum pieces.

Things like Vinaya and so are are very relative.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2011 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Namdrol said:
Vinaya is for monks and scholars. It is not for lay practitioners.

N

Huseng said:
Some scholars of the Vinaya in China commented that one can study cause and effect as well as dependent origination by looking at the case examples present in the Vinaya coupled with the Buddha's explanations.


Malcolm wrote:
It is easier to understand cause and effect by looking at a plant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Huseng said:
If the motivation is driven by genuine compassion or need for practicality in aiding sentient beings, then the Vinaya-based śīla can be overridden or modified appropriately.

Malcolm wrote:
It can also be ignored completely if you are not a monk or have a superior understanding based on yogic accomplishment.

Vinaya is for monks and scholars. It is not for lay practitioners.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Conventions contrary to scripture.
Content:
Astus said:
S. Dhammika's book http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.de/downloads/brokenbuddhanew.pdf (PDF) addresses this issue in detail within the Theravada tradition.

There are precepts against magic and all sorts of rituals but at the same time it is found everywhere in Buddhism. There are precepts against music, dancing, working and games while monks may do all that in East Asia.


Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna is not bound by Hināyāna rules.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhist View of Zen
Content:
tamdrin said:
There were Zen practicioners in Tibet.  The Drikung Kyabgon Rinpoche has written a book about this, but I don't believe it has been translated into english.


Malcolm wrote:
Adriano Clemente's has translated portions of Nubchen related to Zen, etc. It should be out this year.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 5:02 PM
Title: Re: English w/diacritics for Sanskrit, please.
Content:
ratna said:
The second reads Revatīgraha. According to Monier-Williams, it's the name of a demon presiding over diseases in Buddhist sources.

For Tibetan-Sanskrit, I don't think there's one single good source for everything. There's Mahāvyutpatti, which is available online at http://texa.human.is.tohoku.ac.jp/aiba/archive/mvyut/open " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Otherwise, there are Tibetan-Sanskrit indexes for specific texts, etc.

R


Malcolm wrote:
You are right, it is 5 am where I am and I was on autopilot.

Revati, Remati are synonyms. Revati/Remati is a title of Palden Lhamo/Shri Devi. She is responsible for illnesses also.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 2:55 PM
Title: Re: English w/diacritics for Sanskrit, please.
Content:
trinle thaye said:
I would like to use the proper Sanskrit with diacritics for the two terms below, but I don't read Sanskrit. Any help much appreciated. Further, if anyone knows of resources for Tibetan-Sanskrit, that would be much appreciated. I have Tibskrit which is great for names of Indian masters w/diacritics, I have Illumnator dictionary also, but it is limited. Is there another resource I might find helpful? Thank you.
'bigs byed.png
rnam gru'i gdon.png

Malcolm wrote:
Vindhya

Rematī bhuta


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 9:46 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:


conebeckham said:
Very much agree--with the proviso that far fewer people can take sexual activity, alcohol intoxication, and such on the path immediately without training in renunciation and all the other trainings that are known to be "preliminary" to "entering the action," "Karmamudra," etc., than those who need to work with "sutra style renunciation"  prior to such practices.

Then again, maybe you've met more mature Dharma practitioners than I......

Malcolm wrote:
Different strokes for different folks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 8:30 AM
Title: Re: rGyud-bzhi' and the Bumshi medical texts
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,   

Bon has so its own sources for their Tibetan Medicine.
Undermentioned link is written by Colin Millard, with whom i came recently in contact.

- Key points are here the  rGyud-bzhi' and the Bon Zhang Zhung Bumshi

http://www.bodyhealthreligion.org.uk/BAHAR/bon-medical-tradition.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes
KY

Malcolm wrote:
In all likelyhood, the 'Bum bzhi is later than the rgyud bzhi and derives from it.

This area is something in which I am somewhat expert, having compared these texts with Tibetan translation of the Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita, one of the main Ayurvedic treatises. Both the rgyud bzhi and the 'bum bzhi depend on this text as an antecedent, especially most of the explanatory tantra (bshad rgyud) or the bon version, the multicolored volume ('bum khra bo)  -- there are many, many passages derived directly from the Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita in both texts.

There is another text called "the minor tantra" (rgyud chung) which is preserved in the cha lag bco brgyad which is a miscellany of texts composed by Yuthog Sarma and others (the evidence of for a Yuthog Nyingma is lacking and he probably was invented by Darmo Menrampa in the 17the century) in the late 12th, early 13th century. The the minor tantra, in my opinion, is the source of both the man ngag rgyud (clinical medicine) and the phyi ma rgyud (therapeutics) as well as the black volume and the white volume ('bum nag po, 'bum dkar po).

The "minor tantra" was received by Yuthog Sarma. He expanded it with his main disciple, Yeshe Zung into the present Four Tantras we have today by composing the root tantra and abstracting major portions of the sutra sthana and sarira sthana out of the Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita. Moreover, whole chapters of the Uttara sthana are reproduced word for word in the Man ngag rgyud/'bum nag.

Moreover, there is a detailed tantric system called the Yuthog Nyingthig which is associated with this tradition that share significant intertextuality with the four tantras themselves -- in particular the conduct of the doctor -- which itself is abstracted in large measure from the Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita. There is to my knowledge (I could be wrong) no such corresponding tantric system associated with the 'Bum bzhi in Bon which is practiced only by Bon doctors.

Now then, do medical traditions from Bon and Shang Shung exist in the four tantras? The answer is yes. The system of compresses and medicinal baths and so on, as well as many remedies, some names of herbs, and so on derive from Shang Shung and Bon.

But to claim that the rgyud bzhi really is a text converted from a Bon original means the original Bon author copied and abstracted large sections of a Buddhist Ayurvedic text, Aṣṭanga hridaya samhita that was only translated into Tibetan in the 980's by Rinchen Zangpo.

Personally, in this instance I think it is clear that 'bum bzhi depends on the rgyud bzhi, and that the rgyud bzhi is the earlier text.

In any event, the main point is that both text teach an identical system of medicine i.e. the system of Tibetan Medicine.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 7:37 AM
Title: Re: Swelling
Content:
Nangwa said:
the moxa treatment is remarkable.
Not only did it diminish the swelling in my knee, but my comfortable range of motion was significantly increased.
thanks again for the recommendation Namdrol.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 7:25 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
tamdrin said:
Theoretically,
However I don't agree with the view that renunciation is not necessary especially for beginners.  I think it is.


Malcolm wrote:
It very much depends on who the beginner is, and who their teacher is, and what tradition they choose to follow.

Not everyone needs to follow sūtra style renunciation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 7:23 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
I am bringing into question your fundamental assumption that the European enlightenment was successful and needs to emulated in the Islamic world.



Malcolm wrote:
It was successful in destroying Christianity, intentionally or not. That is all I said it was successful at doing. Islamic nations need a similar secular revolution.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
tamdrin said:
Yes I agree, one will find more satisfaction meditating in the mountains than wandering the cities- mind full of the 3 poisons...


Malcolm wrote:
The problem is not objects, said Naropa, the problem is the attachment. If you spike the root of attachment, the leaves of the three poisons wither on their own.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Buddhists in America get political
Content:
Seishin said:
I believe that these guys are in some way related to Enjitsu, who has caused a storm everywhere he goes, including on this forum.

Jikan said:
Yes, I suspect we've met this individual before.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2448 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As an American, I propose instead we consider the World Party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMtZOXnavWA " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Malcolm wrote:
As a Buddhist, I suggest we regard all politics as manifestations of the Kali Yuga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2011 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
kirtu said:
Saudi Arabia is an example of a fundamentalist Muslim state.  Most Mulsim societies are not fundamentalist.

Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim country and it says it guarantees freedom of religion and generally tollerates freedom of religion for Hindu's, Buddhists, Christians and a very small Jewish community.

Malcolm wrote:
In practice, however it is different:

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/11/04/indonesia-uphold-religious-freedom " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



kirtu said:
Iran before the revolution was a good example of a kind of working multiculturalism.

Malcolm wrote:
Sort of. It is true that the Shah repatriated Parsees who wanted to return to Iran etc.

kirtu said:
India *after* the invasions, under the Mughals was broadly tollerant.

Malcolm wrote:
After Buddhism was totally destroyed.

kirtu said:
Morocco, Tunisia

Malcolm wrote:
Close to Europe. Too much money to lose by being fanatics.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 5:10 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:



tobes said:
Fine minds have made the argument: Fromm, Adorno, Agamben.

I agree that it's very reductive, but their point is not that the Enlightenment caused the Holocaust; but more that the Holocaust stands as very compelling evidence that its political idealism (especially Kant's cosmopolitanism) did not prevail in reality.



Malcolm wrote:
You still missed the point of my bringing up the Enlightenment.

And you have hoisted yourself on your own petard. Political idealism never prevails in reality.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 5:02 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
tobes said:
compassion, not division.


muni said:
Agree here with you.  Awareness' impartiality.


Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of compassion -- one will get you killed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 5:00 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
tobes said:
Fine, but I don't see Lama Ole making a subtle argument about the juridical system. He's not saying "sovereign law should be equally applied to all citizens. I am troubled by the friction between the proper functioning of a law and minorities."

Nor are many of the right in Europe, for that matter.

They are, in fact, talking about 'wearing foreign garb.' Legislating to ban it in fact.



Malcolm wrote:
Look, American Politics is still about the civil war. European Politics is still about the crusades.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 4:55 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
Well, if Europe was really enlightened in the Kantian sense, wouldn't Europeans be genuinely cosmopolitan in orientation? What about Locke and tolerance?

Malcolm wrote:
Compared to US, it was/is. And even the US is more tolerant than any Muslim nation today. Go and try to practice Buddhism in Saudi Arabia, for example. It is illegal to practice any religion in Saudi Arabia other than Islam. But I am sure you know this.


tobes said:
It is the greatest of ironies that this problematic gets catched out in liberal-enlightenment terms, when it is infact profoundly psychoanalytic: irrational to the extreme. The identifications people make to nation-states are constructed and without substance: Buddhists should be well aware of these processes, and the dangers they contain.

Malcolm wrote:
My purpose in bring up the Enlightenment was to point out that it lead to the intellectual decline of Christianity, not that it removed people's cultural biases.

tobes said:
Robust nationalism was the core reason for the failure of the Enlightenment as a political project,

Malcolm wrote:
As I said above, you missed the point of why I introduced the Enlightenment.

tobes said:
and the failure persists in the present day defence of good civilised, white, Frenchness, Dutchness, Austrianess et al, all of which, can only exist if 'the other' is demonised, made alien, scapegoated.

Malcolm wrote:
You forget, for Moslems, all non-Moslems are automatically "others". You would do well never to forget this.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 4:51 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
Right, the same Enlightenment which lead directly to the genocide of six million Jews? Europe: civilised. Middle East: barbarian.....c'mon, this is nonsense. You know better.



Malcolm wrote:
You can hardly blame the Enlightenment for the Holocaust. Instead you can blame a millennia of institutionalized Anti-semitism in Christian Europe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 4:45 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


heart said:
Should payback be something we serve on the basis of peoples religion? I find that very frightening and without doubt the reason ChNN is warning against showing our beliefs to openly. The fascist will start with the Muslims but it will not take long before other "strange" religions like Buddhism go the same way.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
I am not unaware of this. But this does not mean that we need to understand that Islam is our friend.

I agree however with your general idea that civil rights of people everywhere need to be respected, including Moslems. It is a pity that in general this sentiment is not shared by Islamic governments.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 7:13 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
tamdrin said:
What is the reason behind tankrikas drinking alchohol exactly?  Like, copious amounts?


Malcolm wrote:
Conducts are in general used to test one's "heat" on the path of application.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


Jikan said:
I disagree.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok.


Jikan said:
It's true that many European cities are ringed by impoverished suburbs dominated by immigrants from their former colonies by virtue of their own policies:  guest worker programs and the distribution public assistance on one hand, and refusal of full political and social enfranchisement on the other.  It's worthwhile to compare the experience of Sweden, where immigrants are taught the language and better encouraged into the mainstream, to that of France of the Netherlands, where immigrants are effectively ghettoized and have little else to do than practice "la perruque" if employed at all.  Sweden's system isn't perfect, but it seems to produce better results.

Malcolm wrote:
In Sweden that openness is ending.



Jikan said:
The question of Enlightenment is a debatable one historically.  The debate on it is irrelevant to the thread, so I'll just say that if there is something analogous to an enlightenment in the Islamic world, it's happening right now, starting in Tunisia.

Even if you bracket all that, I think my broader point stands:  it's counterproductive to use us-against-them rhetoric to build yourself up as a popular One of Us.  It's analogous to the teabagger treatment of Latinos in the U.S., who are also said to overrun our cities and dilute our culture like a contagion, all the while relying on familial bonds and medieval superstitions such as saint worship.  I find that nonsense objectionable too, as it incites violence (literal and otherwise) against the Other.

Malcolm wrote:
Latins who come here do not have at their back an alienated culture that has been historically in conflict with all cultures surrounding it since the 7th century.



Jikan said:
That's not to say I think Islam as a religion or body of doctrine is above criticism.  It's not an accident I'm not a Muslim.  I'm just suspicious of the kinds of rhetorical moves Nydahl is making in order to win friends and influence people, and their consequences.

Malcolm wrote:
Ole is a dumb guy. But his concerns, while phrased in right wing terms that I do not particularly admire show that there is an underlying problem with the assimilation of Muslims in Europe. Of course we can point to colonial policies in various colonies, etc., but ghettos form for two reasons, one because ghettoed communities themselves tend to practice cultural exclusion (Muslims and Jews are perfect examples of this i.e. Hallal, Kosher, refusing to eat with gentiles) and are also ghettoized because they are "others". The fact that Christians broke this trend was key to the success of Christianity among Greek slaves in the Roman empire.

Also, I stand by the historical record that shows that Muslims barely tolerated Buddhists in places they conquered and often slaughtered us wholesale and went to great lengths to erase all evidence of Buddhism in Central Asia.

I am pretty sure that the "revolution" in Mulsim countries now will wind up with the creation of Islamocracies like Iran. I don't see these revolutions remaining progressive for very long. The world is in for one long drawn out conflict between the Muslim world and everyone else. You may not like it, you may not believe it, but it is going to happen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Urgyen Chodron said:
My feeling about lamas and other gurus is that I think they could be married and still be a lama. It is the secrecy that I don't like because it harms the sangha.

Malcolm wrote:
Sometimes, when you are an advanced practitioner, there are kinds of conduct you must keep secret until you have mastered stability in your practice. For example, eating meat, drinking wine, etc. these things were very shocking in ancient Buddhist India.

Now of course many of these things have become kind of a ritual divorced from their real context.

However, if you are a Lama and you are sleeping with someone other than your wife secretly, this is hard to justify. It is quite another thing if it is all out in the open.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 2:15 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:


Urgyen Chodron said:
If you don't like the idea of sex as practice and want to practice Vajrayana your best bet is with the Gelukpa sect as they, in general, follow the example of Je Tsongkhapa who maintained pure monastic vows, thus he didn't use a consort, and consequently he was said to have achieved enlightenment in the bardo instead of in this life.  Although there are always exeptions, in Gelukpa too.. Stuff happens in secret, people aren't perfect.  And this type of consort practice that is found in vajrayana is not a teacher taking advantage of a student, or at least it shouldn't be- I agree with you there!  What pissess me off is the monks who pretend on the outside that they are monks- but in secret they take women.. This is pretty common in Tibetan Buddhism-unfortunately.  Maybe you should question yourself as to why you feel such an aversion to people using sex on the path if it is a consensual relationship?
Thank you so much for this post. Even my teacher said that they do not practice in the way I feared and that they keep monastic vows. I thought it was all the same.

Thank you all for your posts since I last posted, as it cleared up many misconceptions.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a monk, it is considered that you should not break your monastic vows.

However, most mahāsiddhas who were monks left their vows and took up with female partners. For example, Saraha, Naropa, Virupa, etc., the list is quite long.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: lacking the capacity
Content:
alpha said:
time is another factor...

i wonder if i still have time left to achieve the rainbow body in this lifetime given that i am 37 already...considering that i have received everything one needs to get there..

i know about a rinpoche -shardza rinpoche -who decided  relatively late that  he had enough of samsara and went into retreat when he was 34 or 35  and he still achieved rainbow body...


Malcolm wrote:
Generally speaking, yes. You have time. If you have all the instructions, it is purely based on your diligence, and nothing else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Olmo Lungring: The imperishable sacred land
Content:
tamdrin said:
Bonpo's really did just copy everything from the Buddhists, and gave it a flavor of eternalism.. the "eternal bon sku".. lol


Malcolm wrote:
That is not true, we also consider dharmakāya to be "eternal".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


Jikan said:
I still object to the way in which Nydahl attempts to flame up anti-Islamic sentiment as a way to curry favor with his readers and listeners.  Counterproductive is the gentlest term to use for it.

Malcolm wrote:
We don't live in Europe. So we don't see things the way they do. We are not having our cities overrun with Moslems who have no interest in integrating with our society (not yet, anyway). I don't particularly like nationalism, but Islam is a religion based on cultural warfare and ethnic cleansing, just like Christianity and Judaism. However, Christianity was ultimately neutered by the end of the 19th Century because of the forces of The Enlightenment. Islam never went through an Enlightenment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2011 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
LastLegend said:
Hopefully you will transform the lust and don't let the lust transform you

And what how does this transformation work? Does the transformation of this lust happen during the process of realizing enlightenment or when you are enlightened?


Malcolm wrote:
It is the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Fundamentally, Vajrayāna is a path of non-renunciation. In other words, in Vajrayāna we are not rejecting any dimension of our experience on the path. Therefore, since we do not reject any of our experience, we have to integrate all of our experience on the path, including our sexuality. If we do not, our path is not complete and our sexual experience continues to be a cause for more samsara.

LastLegend said:
Experiment yes but at the end you have to get rid of it completely if you want to achieve enlightenment, then you have to uproot the anchored habit of lust as this is one of the chains in DO. I am talking about birth.


Malcolm wrote:
You are not a Vajrayāna practitioner, you don't understand. Vajrayāna is not a path of renunciation. Desire is not "uprooted", it is transformed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
mudra said:
Actually Pero it's not BS because what you are doing is creating a prejudice.


Malcolm wrote:
Islam, Christianity, Judaism, not to mention Capitalism and State Socialism, and even "Hinduism" and "Buddhism", are undead leviathans who will eat everything in their path and spare no one.

For a good history of the rise and fall of Leviathans since the city state of Ur, see "Against His-story, Against Leviathan" by Fredy Perlman.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Has the text that Rinpoche has been teaching from "Jangchub Semgom" been translated into English? and if so where can it be found?


Malcolm wrote:
A related text, rdo le ser zhun has been translated into English as Primordial Experience. It is not an easy read because the translators tried to be very experimental in their approach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
alpha said:
I wonder if they had  some technical difficulties because there was a pause in the broadcast for about 25 min or was it just me having this problem?

Malcolm wrote:
The connection was dropped for about 20 minutes by my notes.

Too bad, because that twenty minutes explained the guts of meditation from sems sde POV.

See, have to become a member than no


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:
Urgyen Chodron said:
I understand things better now, and so I am not leaving. My teacher doesn't practice it as such.

I also learned from a reliable source, an atheist Buddhist, that the Trimondi's book is not to be taken seriously, and I wish the OP to know this.

I do not have weird protestant morality. Just because I don't believe that teachers should be sleeping with their disciples or that sex should be used to reach high states of meditation, does not make me a weird protestant. You don't need the use of sex to reach enlightenment, and I also agree with Dechen, that most flock to tantric teachings for the wrong reason, and that too is materialism. Sometimes, they may wind up with teachers who do take advantage of them, but maybe that is what they wanted too. The book, Sex and the Spiritual Teacher, is a good read.


Malcolm wrote:
Fundamentally, Vajrayāna is a path of non-renunciation. In other words, in Vajrayāna we are not rejecting any dimension of our experience on the path. Therefore, since we do not reject any of our experience, we have to integrate all of our experience on the path, including our sexuality. If we do not, our path is not complete and our sexual experience continues to be a cause for more samsara.

If you are practicing any kind of mandala yoga for example Kalacakra or Vajrayogini, it is a 24/7 practice.

The person who wrote the book above has no insight in Vajrayāna. He is coming from the Zen tradition. This is fine, but there it is not appropriate to apply his point of view to Vajrayāna.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Buddhists in America get political
Content:
Seishin said:
https://www.facebook.com/TheBuddhistParty#!/TheBuddhistParty

I have to say that the Buddhists behind this campain are coming off as fundamentalists.

Malcolm wrote:
Ignore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 2:54 PM
Title: Re: 'agod pa
Content:
Nangwa said:
Well, what the heck does it mean?

Pero said:
That doesn't seem to be anything according to either of my dictionaries (assuming you put it in Wylie). But god pa is decreased, diminished, lost.

edit: Just remembered. Perhaps you misread the Tibetan and it says 'god pa?

Nangwa said:
I thought of that. I checked the text again and it seems like I have it right.
I haven't been able to find anything either. Although the closest I have gotten is lost, diminished, etc.
The text I am looking at definitely has an a chung before the ga.


Malcolm wrote:
"establish", etc it is not 'agod but rather simply 'god.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 8:57 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
Hey Malcolm,
You mean the one with Drupon Rinchen Dorje on Saraha's Doha's, etc?? What exactly are Adinatha's pronouncements?  Yeah there is secret stuff in the Kagyu that no one has access too.. not me, not him, almost no one..


Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is secret stuff in all lineages. But when you find out what it is, you find out it is not really so secret. What makes it secret is that usually it is a form of oral instruction that clarifies a key point which is only useful to someone who has experience in a given practice. There are many such instructions like this in Sakya, Nyingma, Kagyu,Gelug, etc. Experiential instructions.

But there is not such thing as a secret instruction that grants anyone instant buddhahood.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 8:46 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
There are secret things you don't know. And I can't say. Kagyu is different.

tamdrin said:
Yeah don't think you know everything... I just learned in reading some of the teachings of Bardor Tulku that there are lineages of the 6 yogas that are secret too- it is only a more common one that is passed on in 3 year retreats etc..


Malcolm wrote:
Anyway Sean, apparently David is having a real interesting program in VT in early June. You can ask that Lama about some of adinatha's pronouncements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pero said:
And I remember one time on E-Sangha that there was some mention of a teacher who said you can get his lung from CD too, I don't remember who it was though.


Malcolm wrote:
Dodrupchen used to send tapes of lungs to his students in US.

Each master has different idea.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism
Content:
Jikan said:
I think I'm less skeptical about the claims of institutional Vajrayana lineages than Astus is.  I don't think it's possible to put projects like this, or Aro gTer, or the Mahajyra people, in the same category as Shingon or Nyingma for instance.

Astus said:
I think the emphasis is on institutional. These small (or not so small) groups lack the institutional system that the "old churches" have. But besides that I find their ways of presentation and spreading similar to those groups (not necessarily Vajrayana related) that are now the great institutions. Just think how many schools started as unorthodox sects with questionable practices from India to Japan.


Malcolm wrote:
I know a whole crew of people who know this guy personally, who were his students for quite a long period of time. He is not a scrupulous person.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Clarence said:
That is why Rinpoche has been stressing that the space between thoughts is NOT Rigpa?


Malcolm wrote:
Space between thoughts/concepts in not _dharmakāya_. It is just an experience of emptiness. Not same emptiness as dharmakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: The man Padmasambhava killed
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The acts of mahāsiddhas are inconceivable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
So our "nature " is beyond mind or is it a level of mind like tthe alayavijnana?

Malcolm wrote:
Beyond mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 7:47 AM
Title: Re: Attainment of Buddhahood is impossible
Content:
Sherab said:
Is Buddhahood a state then?


Namdrol said:
Good question: we treat buddhahood as if it were a state -- the term state implies something steady -- when one thing changes into another thing, we call that a "change of state". But buddhahood is no more a state that ignorance is. In other words, ultimately there is no buddhahood. Buddhahood is just a name for a relative appearance. When the causes and conditions that support that appearance cease, so does buddhahood.

Buddhahood is just the realization of that principle.

N

Sherab said:
So when ignorance ceases, Buddhahood ceases.  What is left then is just is.  Is that what you mean?

Malcolm wrote:
When there are no more sentient beings, there are no more buddhas either.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 6:36 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[quote="adinatha"]

Not sure what that quote shows. Vajra wisdom empowerment is not a ceremony.

[quote]

It can be. It also might not be. But it is a transmission. The masters intends to transmit something, the disciples intends to receive. It is a fancy name for direct introduction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 6:34 AM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
NN kept talking about secondary causes "refracted" through our crystalline "pure" nature giving rise to manifestations, but he did not give an example of what a secondary cause is.  Can somebody furnish some examples?
Thank you!


Malcolm wrote:
Everything belong to mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 6:31 AM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:


tamdrin said:
But what Namdrol is implying that Garchen Rinpoche is less realized than Gyalpo Rinpoche because he has taken empowerments from him (if he has) is not exactly true..


Malcolm wrote:
NO, what I was implying was that Gyalpo Rinpoche is so highly respected, that Garchen Rinpoche received the transmission of Yamantaka from Gyalpo RInpoche. They are both Gurus of mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:


adinatha said:
Of course Gyalpo Rinpoche is a nice master. Drikung has two lineages in it. The first is the lineage of empowerment people, like His Holiness Drikung Chetsang Rinpoche and Garchen Rinpoche. They can only give empowerments and teachings, but not retreat stuff like Six Yogas. .

Malcolm wrote:
Gyalpo Rinpoche is qualified to give all. More importantly he is the probably the main master for Yangzab.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 6:27 AM
Title: Re: Ojas
Content:
rai said:
Dear Namdrol,

Would practices like Yantra Yoga or other yogas have any beneficial influence on increasing or maintaining the Ojas? is there any connection?

Thank you again!


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, for maintaing very important.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:


adinatha said:
I appreciate you've had all kinds of teachers. My little unknown lama descends from Pachung Rinpoche and Yeshe Rinpoche. These people are not khenpos. They are realized siddhas and 3-year retreat masters. Their teachings come from the perspective of experience. I'm pointing out that there is a way of demonstrating the Four Yogas in one's immediate direct realization of mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
You will find it very hard to find someone in Drikung more qualified than Gyalpo Rinpoche. Even Garchen Rinpoche has taken empowerments from him. He is renowned among other things for his expertise in the Yamantanaka cycle. He is an emanation of Rigzin Godem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
The wisdom vajra empowerment is not an introduction.


Namdrol said:
Yes it is. The procedure for conferring the empowerment of the wisdom vajra is described in detail in chapter seventeen of Indrabhuti's Jñānasiddhi. This is the original source.

adinatha said:
Maybe that's what it says in a text, but as you may know the lineage develops over time and the nature of wisdom blessings becomes more direct. Milarepa has specific teachings about this. Jnanasiddhi is only referred to now as a source of support for the existence of the vajra wisdom empowerment to deal with critics. Jnanasiddhi text is no longer used in practice.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no contradiction. Guru, disciple and dependent origination = empowerment. It is not an elaborate empowerment with many words and so on. But there is an intention to transmit and an intention to receive. That is required.

The last chapter says:

Meditating the mandala of mudras, colors, 
arms, seats,
meditating the three samadhis, the four mudras, 
three faces, six arms, 
this is just the outer bark, 
the intimate instructions of various elaborations
all of them are explained to be inferior,
all of them are just methods of simulation, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:
Namdrol said:
As I said, there is no real contradiction. We call Vajradhara dharmakāya because Vajradhara is the dharmakāya manifesting as sambhogkāya to give teachings.

N

adinatha said:
That's true. All I'm noticing is that I never saw the name Samantabhadra in connection with Drikung except when referring to the bodhisattva Samantabhadra. And in the pith instructions it is stated that Vajardhara is the nature of mind, dharmakaya.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, I can understand that. In any case, it is as I said.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
The wisdom vajra empowerment is not an introduction.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes it is. The procedure for conferring the empowerment of the wisdom vajra is described in detail in chapter seventeen of Indrabhuti's Jñānasiddhi. This is the original source.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:
Namdrol said:
Yes, it is true there are many things in common between sems sde and kagyu mahamudra. Also for example, Adzom Drugpa's major commentary on rdzog chen presents the four yogas of mahāmudra as sems sde.

N

adinatha said:
There are many different ways to describe the four yogas. Perhaps one way is comparative with the sems de. But there are others that are equal to the ultimate mahamudra.


Malcolm wrote:
IN general, four yogas are considered part of sutra mahāmudra. We say "sutra", but in reality, explanation of sutra mahāmudra is mixed up with tantras as well.

You should understand I have had in-depth personal instruction on the similarities and differences between mahāmudra and dzogchen from Lamkhyen Gyalpo Rinpoche. I translated his book on Five Fold mahāmudra for him and edited it with him and his student, Khenpo Tenzin. Gyalpo Rinpoche was the dean of the Drikung Shedra for many years. For me, he is an awakened person. He is one of my important teachers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:
adinatha said:
Vajradhara is to Kagyu as Samantabhadra is to Dzogchen.

Namdrol said:
Not really, it just seems that way. Also the Guhyasamaja, etc., refers to the dharmakāya as Samantabhadra. However, in new tantra system of Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug and Jonang, Samantabhadra is never represented with form since he is the mind of all the Buddhas. Only Vajradhara has a representation since he represents the principle of the manifestation of the dharmakāya as a teacher.

In Dzogchen however, the dharmakāya is represented as a Buddha free from ornaments, where as the sambhogakāya is represented as possessing ornaments.

In the system of the nine kāyas Vajradhara represents the dharmakāya sambhogakāya, whereas Samanabhadra is the dharmkāya dharmakāya.

adinatha said:
There are many different representation traditions. In Drikung, Vajradhara is synonymous with the dharmakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, in reality, Dharmakāya does not have form, ornaments, etc. Vajradhara is Sambhogakāya manifestation of dharmakāya. This is clearly explained in the new tantra system. Original source of Samantbhadra as Dharmakāya is from Yoga tantra, Tattvasaṃgraha. Also is present in Guhyasamaja, the main father tantra the same way. In the new tantra schools, Vajradhara is considered the source of all teachings. Even so, when depicted with ornaments, etc., Sambhogakāya. As I said, there is no real contradiction. We call Vajradhara dharmakāya because Vajradhara is the dharmakāya manifesting as sambhogkāya to give teachings.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2011 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
BTW, this real mahāmudra is beyond so called "essence" mahāmudra since essence mahāmudra depends in an introduction.

adinatha said:
What are you referring to when you say "essence mahamudra"? What introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
Essence mahāmudra as described by Kongtrul.

This depends on the descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment:
The essence is the descent of the vajra of pristine awareness (ye shes rdo rje)...
See page 225-226 Esoteric Instructions, volume of Treasury of Knowledge series.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Clarence said:
So, even just after today's teachings, if we become members of DC, we can start practicing the Semdzins, Lojongs and Rushens to take away all doubts?

Malcolm wrote:
You don't have to become a member of the DC to do that. But in general, yes, if you are interested you can buy books, and so on after becoming members of DC. Song of the Vajra, incidentally, is a perfect semzin. You should purchase precious vase, also there are short booklets that explain these things very well. Then you try to meet people who are nearby who are in DC and ask for their help in showing you how to do things, or you buy DVD's etc, for those practices in which you are interested.



Clarence said:
Is that what you would recommend for someone who is still unsure about Rigpa?

Malcolm wrote:
Practice Guru yoga.


Clarence said:
Do the booklets provide accurate enough descriptions of HOW to do them?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Clarence said:
For example, with the Guru Yoga of the white A, is there a special place on visualises the A or not at all? I didn't completely understand that.

Malcolm wrote:
Center of your body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Madeliaette said:
Did you experience any problem? The video froze for a while,
Ah, so there was a video problem then - I thought the 'cut out' was because it transferred to secret teachings rather than general at that point, so I turned it off! Silly me!
I tried to watch it - and got the begining where they were all getting ready and the first 50-55 minutes of the talk - at which point it froze and went black/blank. Even that short attempt to tune in was interupted - my dad woke up from his nap and was neing sick and so I had to hop downstairs for ten minutes...  Oh well, it seems there are teachings given a couple of times a year - maybe next time, I will have better luck, not have a sick father and remember that tip on how to fix the video!


Malcolm wrote:
There are teachings more than a couple times a year. So you listen tomorrow morning as well.

They never turn off camera during a webcast for that reason.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:



alpha said:
is ati guru yoga part of short thun practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It is also a stand alone practice.

alpha said:
If this ati guru yoga is the most essential possible guru yoga then is it enough that one does only this type of guru yoga? i take "most essential possible" to mean most important...is that correct?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It is sufficient.


alpha said:
is the short thun practice a kind of preliminary type of practice?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a complete practice that integrates Ati yoga and Anuyoga. The medium and long thun integrate Mahayoga, Anuyoga and Atiyoga.

alpha said:
i must admit that i have difficulty in 1.understanding rinpoche and 2.understanding where would these practices fit in?

Malcolm wrote:
You will get used to Rinpoche's English and his terminology over time. Primordial state = gzhi i.e.basis; presence = mindfulness, dran pa; instant presence, knowledge = rig pa. essence nature and energy = ngo bo, rang bzhin and thugs rjes.


alpha said:
i still see things in a kind of gradual fashion and all my questions stem from this ..
At what point one does this thun practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Whenever you have more time. No time, White A; more time, short thun, even more time, medium thun, etc. There is no specific preliminary practice to do in Dzogchen Community. Perhaps one should learn how to sing song of the vajra properly. A sample practice might run -- purification mantra of five elements; guru yoga of white A and Song of the vajra, dedication. This is a pure Atiyoga practice. But Rinpoche has remarked there is no such a thing as "pure" Atiyoga. Why? Because practitioners have needs since we have dualistic vision. Therefore, we need things like Mandarava practice for long life, Garuda for cancer, etc. But the one thing that is indispensable is Guru Yoga of White A.

If you like gradual style, than I encourage you to study for the base level exam of Santi Mahāsangha. Obtain the book Precious Vase.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Must say that Dzogchen and Mahamudra differ.

Namdrol said:
You missed the point. The state of dzogchen and the state of mahamudra are the same.

The paths of dzogchen and the paths of mahamudra are completely different.

dzoki said:
Well, it depends on what you compare, I found the instructions of 9th Karmapa´s Ngedon Gyatso and the instructions on Kham Lug Semde compiled by Yungton Dorje Pal to be identical.

Malcolm wrote:
That is interesting.

Yes, it is true there are many things in common between sems sde and kagyu mahamudra. Also for example, Adzom Drugpa's major commentary on rdzog chen presents the four yogas of mahāmudra as sems sde.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 5:14 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan medicine vs Ayurveda
Content:
seraphim said:
Great Info, thanks! So can we say that most Tibetan doctors are Nyingmapas, and to what extant is the Yuthog Nyingtik practiced today as a Dzogchen practice (not as a medicine practice)?

Malcolm wrote:
Most Tibetan doctors should be practitioners of Yuthog Nyinghig. No one practices Yuthog Nyinthig who is not a doctor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 5:11 PM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Must say that Dzogchen and Mahamudra differ.

Malcolm wrote:
You missed the point. The state of dzogchen and the state of mahamudra are the same.

The paths of dzogchen and the paths of mahamudra are completely different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 5:08 PM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:
adinatha said:
Vajradhara is to Kagyu as Samantabhadra is to Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really, it just seems that way. Also the Guhyasamaja, etc., refers to the dharmakāya as Samantabhadra. However, in new tantra system of Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug and Jonang, Samantabhadra is never represented with form since he is the mind of all the Buddhas. Only Vajradhara has a representation since he represents the principle of the manifestation of the dharmakāya as a teacher.

In Dzogchen however, the dharmakāya is represented as a Buddha free from ornaments, where as the sambhogakāya is represented as possessing ornaments.

In the system of the nine kāyas Vajradhara represents the dharmakāya sambhogakāya, whereas Samanabhadra is the dharmkāya dharmakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Is the text above published in English somewhere? I would like to hunt down a copy. Wonderful!

Malcolm wrote:
Only in my incomplete and unedited rendering.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;


Malcolm wrote:
"A rose is a rose is a rose".

-- G. Stein.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.

Nangwa said:
Its used differently.
It plays a big role in the Semde literature.
Namdrol, is the term used as frequently and in the same way in the other two classes?


Malcolm wrote:
Not so much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Dechan Jueren and Hanmi Buddhism
Content:
Astus said:
A fascinating new Chinese derived Esoteric and Zen group: http://www.dari-rulai-temple.org/index.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Historically, Chinese Esoteric Buddhism, or the Hanmi Mystery School, was thought to be lost when Emperor Tang Wuzong banned the teaching. Huiguo, the last known disciple of Amoghavajra, had left China and went with Kukai to Japan to establish the Japanese Esoteric school of Buddhism, later known as the Shingon sect. Unknown to history, Amoghavajra had another disciple, Huisu, who received all the religious instruments and dharma transmission. He then became the Dharma Lineage Bearer. Since then, Hanmi has been underground for over twelve centuries.

The Hanmi lineage has been passed on through one master per generation. Master Yu Tian Jian is the highest and only living master of Hanmi, the Honorable Abbot of the 1000-year old LongQuan Temple in Chifeng, Inner Mongolia, a doctor of Chinese medicine, and acknowledged as a Living Buddha in China.

Malcolm wrote:
I know several people that have had a very bad experience with this person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2011 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Funnily enough Namkhai Norbu, in his teaching today, basically said that dzogchen, primordial state and bodhicitta are, well, interchangeable terms.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but by bodhicitta he explicitly stated it is not the bodhicitta of sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2011 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:
Namdrol said:
Vajradhara is the Sambhogakāya emanation of Samantabhadra.

dzoki said:
Also in Kagyu texts they are sometimes conflated into "Kunzang Dorje Chang".


Malcolm wrote:
Samantabhadra = mind
Vajradhara,Odla Shenkar, etc. = speech
Shakyamuni, Tonpa Shenrab, Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, etc = body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2011 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Does Rinpoche usually give the lung for the Song of the Vajra during these types of teachings?


Malcolm wrote:
Always


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2011 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Adhi Buddha(s)
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

Since a long time am i interested to know, 

- Why there is the Adhi Buddha who is called: Dorje Chang / Vajradhara
- How to see this in relation to: Kuntu Zangpo
- Do we mean here also the same entity like Dorje Chang = Kuntu Zangpo = Samantabhadra?
- Or can one speak here about only different lineages with a different source?
- In relation to the above mentioned Adi Buddhas, is therefore Mahamudra = Dzogchen?
KY

Malcolm wrote:
Vajradhara is the Sambhogakāya emanation of Samantabhadra.

Samantbhadra is the name of the dharmakāya or the mind of the Buddhas. Vajradhara is the name for Samantabhadra's manifestation in Akaniṣṭha ('og min).

All lineages begin in Samantabhadra, but the Sambhogakāya who communicates this is called Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, etc. Sometimes you see texts in Dzogchen where Samantabhadra is directly teaching Vajradhara.

The state of the mahāmudra and the state of mahāsaṃdhi (rdzogs chen) are absolutely identical. The paths are very different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2011 at 7:05 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan medicine and fungal infection of the skin
Content:
Inge said:
According to the divination of Lama Dawa I need to comission Lamas to perform Naga offering puja 100 times in my name. Do you think I could do this my self instead based on the teaching in ChNN Rinpoche's "The practice for the Naga" booklet?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, just make sure you so it on proper days.

Also you should probably do practice of Garuda.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2011 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Rigdzin
Content:
username said:
Rig is not originally Tibetan either. It is from one of Old Persian languages, Pahlavi IIRC, meaning ultimate knowledge and wisdom.


Namdrol said:
Where did you learn this?

N

username said:
I, not expert in the field, used to read various books on the Gathas/Avesta/etc. and was given rare and new books on them by an expert author friend often when I was interested back then. So long before being a Buddhist knew what rig meant. A few years ago reading an article on Bon, can't remember whose, it stated the etymology of the word from there as a given. I think most Shangshung experts know this if you email one.


Malcolm wrote:
interesting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2011 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


gregkavarnos said:
Or at least that is how it seems to me.


Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is liberation through recognition. That is all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2011 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Rigdzin
Content:
username said:
Rig is not originally Tibetan either. It is from one of Old Persian languages, Pahlavi IIRC, meaning ultimate knowledge and wisdom.


Malcolm wrote:
Where did you learn this?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Namdrol,
for those of us not as well versed in Dzogchen would you mind explaining some of the terminology? for example:
"tridlung of Short Thun practice" and
"Ati Guru Yoga" how is this different from regular Guru Yoga?


Malcolm wrote:
Trilung = khrid lung i.e. an oral transmission of a basic short practice which includes refuge, guru yoga, deity yoga practice, dedication, etc.

Ati guru yoga means a kind of Guru yoga done in the most essential way. It differs from regular guru yoga in that it is the most essential possible guru yoga apart from being in the state of the realization of the guru.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: lacking the capacity
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
- Who are meant with"they"?

Malcolm wrote:
All Tibetans.

kalden yungdrung said:
- Why do you think that "they" know him as "Kuntu Zangpo"rather than Samantabadhra?

Malcolm wrote:
Because they are Tibetans.

It is only in the West that Kun tu zang po is more commonly known as Samantabhadra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
The state of Dzogchen, your state, is already beyond cause and effect. Practicing will not make it so. The sole purpose of practice is to remove obscurations. Not to attain something new.

gregkavarnos said:
Going beyond something (as I stated) is not, in a sense, attaining something though the subjective notion of difference can be conceived of as an attainment.

To say though that Dzogchen is not about practice is  bit, well, misguided.  To say that it is a practice without an object is possibly closer to the truth.  It is though, a way of being, thus a way of practicing (in the sense of a form of activity).  But now I am splitting hairs.


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Greg:

There is no way to improve on something perfect already i.e. your primordial state. But there is something to do in terms of removing your ignorance of that fact. That is what I was trying to communicate with you. The difference between a buddha and sentient being is only recognition and integration with that state or not.

Dzogchen is not "a way of being" per se. It is not a "style". It is remaining in a state of knowledge about one's primordial state, that's all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Attainment of Buddhahood is impossible
Content:
Sherab said:
Is Buddhahood a state then?


Malcolm wrote:
Good question: we treat buddhahood as if it were a state -- the term state implies something steady -- when one thing changes into another thing, we call that a "change of state". But buddhahood is no more a state that ignorance is. In other words, ultimately there is no buddhahood. Buddhahood is just a name for a relative appearance. When the causes and conditions that support that appearance cease, so does buddhahood.

Buddhahood is just the realization of that principle.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
So Dzogchen is not about enlightenment (going beyond cause and effect)?

Malcolm wrote:
The state of Dzogchen, your state, is already beyond cause and effect. Practicing will not make it so. The sole purpose of practice is to remove obscurations. Not to attain something new.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


Sonam Wangchug said:
Namdrol, I understand that you are saying that Dzogchen is superior.

Malcolm wrote:
A text from the Vairocana aural lineage states:

Otherwise, at that time, Vajrasattva emanated Garab Dorje from his heart and he arrived in the presence of five hundred Indian panditas, “My teaching is superior to your eight vehicles, more amazing than the view of mahāmudra, union. If it is understood in the morning, buddhahood in the morning, if understood in the evening, the dharmas of buddhahood in the evening. It is the essence of all views, the intention of all buddhas, the apex of all yanas, the dharma of the true meaning, called “the great perfection”.

Sonam Wangchug said:
In what specific way is Dzogchen superior to mahamudra?

Malcolm wrote:
When we say Dzogchen is superior to mahāmudra, we are referring to paths. In general, we are referring to sutra mahāmudra and mahāmudra of the two stages. Ultimately however, the state of Dzogchen, the state of Prajñāpāramita, and the state of Mahāmudra are not different.

Dzogchen offers a more detailed explanation of what this state entails, how Samantabhadra's liberation occured (yes, Samantabhadra is the name for Dharmakāya in gsar ma tantra as well, originating in Yogatantra, actually), how the delusion of sentient beings occurred and so on, as well as many explanations specific to the path.

Sonam Wangchug said:
Secondly about the buddha-hood that reverts to a basis, What is the tibetan term for this? What exactly does reverting to a basis entail, and could you provide a quote from a dzogchen text, that states that non-dzogchen paths (including mahamudra) Revert to basis? Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
I'll have to get back to you on that:

Meantime, the notion of a primordial Buddhahood is directly refuted by Shri Singha in this text.

This is acceptable since a so called “primordial buddhahood” is not asserted. Full awakening is not possible without being free of the five afflictions. Both śravakas and pratyekabuddhas are abandon afflictions. Cittamatra and madhyamaka stop afflictions. Kriya, upa and yoga purify afflictions and transform them. The trio of mahāyoga, anuyoga and the view of union (mahāmudra) take afflictions into the path. The great perfection places afflictions a state of ceaseless objectlessness. It is not possible for wisdom to increase without giving up afflictions. Wisdom will not arise without purifying afflictions.

And, in giving advice about how Tibetans do not understand Dharma he states:

"Since you Tibetans are small-minded, you are newly associated with dharma. Since you make new friends easily, you become biased towards dharma. Since you are fickle, māras and gongpos will enter your hearts. In terms of great perfection, the dharma of the unsurpassed result, one is bound in fabrications by dharmas bound in concepts. Since you have not differentiated views, you grasp your own opinions. Since you have not differentiated what to accept and what to reject, you do as you please.  Since you have not differentiated the basis and the dharmakāya, you are not free from hope and fear."

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 9:47 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
adinatha,
that is your own made up conception, mahamudra is the indivisible union of emptiness and clarity. read the prayer that jigten sumgon got from Tara whenhe was enlightened the kyab dun ma ni


Malcolm wrote:
Adinatha is just going to tell you this is mahamudra for sissies and girly men.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 9:45 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
We say different. The union of this and that is common of the Rime movement. We don't say union of anything. We don't rely on anything.


Malcolm wrote:
The Drugpa master, Gyalwa Yangongpa states in The Treasury of the Essential Meaning: The Stages of the Four Yogas of Mahāmudrā



Now then, first it is necessary to recognize “mahāmudra” or phyag rgya chen po. In the sutras and tantras of the Sugatas and the instructions of the siddhas of the past a sequence of four mudrās is taught, since mahāmudrā manifests independent on the three other mudrās. Here, [4/a] the sequence of those instructions, the stages of the three mudrās are complete with meaning by power of blessings. Since one is caused to recognize mahāmudra with a special method, it is an immediate path. 

Now then “mahāmudra”: one person claims “Phyag is appearance, rgya is emptiness, chen po is union.” But this is a term for dharmamudra, not our term “mahāmudra.” All terms for clarity and emptiness are terms of samayamudrā. All terms of bliss and emptiness are terms for karmamudrā. Mahāmudra is the position of the Brahmin Saraha, whose position is that it is free from three conditions, beyond the four joys, and alone is distinct from luminous clarity. Since mahāmudrā does not depend on the condition of bliss, does not depend on the condition of clarity, and does not depend on the condition of non-conceptuality, it does not depend on the three conditions. From among the four joys, since the innate joy is demonstrated by the Guru, exists as it understood by the disciple, [4/b] it is an example wisdom with a demonstration and a demonstrator. 

But mahāmudra cannot be shown by a Guru, and cannot be understood by a disciple. It is not soiled by experience and sensations, it is not corrupted by realization and certainty, it is not divided by view, meditation and conduct, it is not sectioned into a basis, path and result, all of these phenomena of appearance and existence, samsara and nirvana are neither removed or added, bound or freed, are fixed with an antidote. Recognition of and self-liberation into one’s own state is called “mahāmudrā.” Luminous clarity is without appearances and free from extremes but mahāmudra is fresh appearances and knowing (rig pa), and because proliferation is self-liberated it is different than luminous clarity.

This is the real mahāmudra.

BTW, this real mahāmudra is beyond so called "essence" mahāmudra since essence mahāmudra depends in an introduction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 9:39 AM
Title: Re: Vajrapani vs Vajrakilaya
Content:
adinatha said:
Anyone here actually uses Vajrakilaya as deity?

Malcolm wrote:
Many people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 9:02 AM
Title: Re: Attainment of Buddhahood is impossible
Content:
Namdrol said:
A nature is either substantial or it is not a nature.

Sherab said:
Substantial as in physically substantial or mentalistically substantial or both?


Malcolm wrote:
Either.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 9:01 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
Namdrol will never quit...


Namdrol said:
Not when someone else has a misunderstanding.


tamdrin said:
You better contact Tulku Thondup and tell him.


Malcolm wrote:
Tulku Thundup has no misunderstanding. He is referring to what is popularly termed "rainbow body".

Keep reading on bottom of page 83 into page 84.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 8:40 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
Namdrol will never quit...


Malcolm wrote:
Not when someone else has a misunderstanding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 8:40 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
You did not read carefully. People call the result of tregchö "rainbow body",but it is not real rainbow body. ChNN, KDL have both discussed this and made it very clear that tregchö does not result in rainbow body.

Pero said:
Actually it also says that in "The Practice Of Dzogchen". As stated before, there are two main forms of dissolution of the mortal body: the attainment of the dissolution of the atoms or the most subtle particles (total dissolution) of the mortal body, popularly known as the attainment of Rainbow Body ('ja lus), through training in Threkchod (Cutting Through), and the attainment of the Light Body (a'od lus) or the Great Transformation ('pho ba chen po) through training in Thodgal (Direct Approach).


Malcolm wrote:
As I said, "popularly" read further. In any case, I know perfectly well what my teachers have said on this issue. Tregchö does not result in rainbow body. It only results in the dissolution of the elements. Some people call that "rainbow body" but it is a mistake. You don't believe me, take it up with ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Attainment of Buddhahood is impossible
Content:
Sherab said:
If your nature is changeable, buddhahood is not attainable since if your nature is changeable, the buddhahood attained could also change.
If your nature is unchangeable, no amount of practice will enable you to attain buddhahood, since your nature is unchangeable.

Yet Buddha taught that there is path to buddhahood.
And Buddha also taught that buddhahood is not attained.

Namdrol said:
Your whole line of reasoning is predicated in the idea of buddhahood being a thing. There is no substantial person, and no substantial buddhahood. Therefore, ignorance is possible, and also liberation.

Sherab said:
I don't think my line of reasoning requires the assumption that buddhahood is a thing.

Malcolm wrote:
A nature is either substantial or it is not a nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 7:54 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
actually namdrol,
rainbow body is precisely the result of trekchod ('ja lus)
the result of thogal is the body of light (od lus)


Namdrol said:
I don't know who told you that, but it is wrong. Tregchö results in the dispersal of the body into subtle particles since it is the realization only of dharmakāya.

Rainbow body and body of light are synonymous.

You can check this out in Tulku Thudup's book.

N

tamdrin said:
I read that in Tulku Thondups' book masters of meditation and miracles about the longchen nyinthig masters.. that is what is written there..

Malcolm wrote:
You did not read carefully. People call the result of tregchö "rainbow body",but it is not real rainbow body. ChNN, KDL have both discussed this and made it very clear that tregchö does not result in rainbow body.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
actually namdrol,
rainbow body is precisely the result of trekchod ('ja lus)
the result of thogal is the body of light (od lus)


Malcolm wrote:
I don't know who told you that, but it is wrong. Tregchö results in the dispersal of the body into subtle particles since it is the realization only of dharmakāya.

Rainbow body and body of light are synonymous.

You can check this out in Tulku Thudup's book.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
Sometimes, the biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen that people have is Buddhism, so they constantly try to compare Dzogchen with the vehicles of cause and result. This causes them to automatically deviate. Dzogchen is completely beyond cause and result. All notions of paths and stages are completely irrelevant in Dzogchen.

adinatha said:
The same is true of essence mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
Sometimes I really get the feeling that essence mahāmudra is just a Kagyu theory, a sort of an idealized mahāmudra that is basically unobtainable. Held out as a possibility which no one ever realizes.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
[

There is no liberation through giving up samsara.


tamdrin said:
theres a lot of little things to be given up that will help lessen ones over all karmic baggage.. Living simply is a start, drinking pure water, eating healthy food, and generally avoiding alchohol will be good for ones overall health

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I agree -- I eat homegrown food, do chulen, drink only moderately, our well is pure, mostly do not eat meat, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
The common opinion among Dzogchen yogis I talk to is that essence mahamudra is at the level of tregcho.

Namdrol said:
Tregchö = sems sde.

adinatha said:
Tregcho is mengagde.


Malcolm wrote:
yes, the word comes from Man ngag sde (actually, to be perfectly accurate, it comes from the klong sde tantra, klong chen rab 'byams).

But the meaning of sems sde and trecgchö is the same -- again, this is not just my opinion -- this has been enunciated by various masters such as ChNN, Khenpo Palden Sherab, etc., masters who have a very broad and comprehensive understanding of textual systems of Dzogchen.

You cannot achieve rainbow body with tregchö -- this is why Longchenpa among others spends a lot of time criticizing tregchö in comparison with Thögal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
yeah thats a nice saying.. people that live in the cities should spend more time in nature..


Malcolm wrote:
I agree, that is why I live in a town of less than 1600 people, way up in the hills, surrounded by forests and fields.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
this debate is stupid.. comparison is stupid.. milarepa gom.. milarepa sol wan deb..


Namdrol said:
MIlarepa, another Dzogchen master.

tamdrin said:
Milarepa, a person who became happy... by giving up samsara


Malcolm wrote:
There is no liberation through giving up samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
this debate is stupid.. comparison is stupid.. milarepa gom.. milarepa sol wan deb..


Malcolm wrote:
MIlarepa, another Dzogchen master.

All your siddhas are belong to us....


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 5:43 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
The common opinion among Dzogchen yogis I talk to is that essence mahamudra is at the level of tregcho.

Malcolm wrote:
Tregchö = sems sde.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
Then those people do not understand the theory. If method does not work, than view is faulty.

Clarence said:
How can we reconcile that with the illiterate Dzogchen masters attaining rainbow body? How can one come to understand the theory? Is it hard?


Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is not rocket science. It is very easy to understand if you have an open mind and you do not go around complicating things.

Sometimes, the biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen that people have is Buddhism, so they constantly try to compare Dzogchen with the vehicles of cause and result. This causes them to automatically deviate. Dzogchen is completely beyond cause and result. All notions of paths and stages are completely irrelevant in Dzogchen.

There are mainly one thing that matters in Dzogchen -- whether or not you are a fortunate person. If you are a fortunate person you will meet a master who has experience who can demonstrate to you your real condition and the methods to discover that for yourself. You do not have to be an educated person like me who has studied way too many books. There is a saying in Dzogchen, an illterate person who has personal experience of their real state will gain liberation far sooner than a Pandita who is expert in a hundred dharma systems but does not have that experience. Dzogchen is not intellectual. It is based on personal experience. You do not have to be literate, or particularly well educated to have that experience. Our friend adinatha will tell you that realization of Dzogchen based on the blessings of the lineage. But actually, it is based on recognizing a personal experience. Maybe we mean the same thing. Certainly having that recognition is wonderful thing, inexpressible, a cause for faith and a great blessing. But collecting blessings and reciting supplications will never get you that experience. Only an experienced master who has that experience will able to introduce it to you in a direct personal way. That is the best blessing.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Method is just method. Mileage varies. Some people spend whole life on the faster direct methods and don't realize the full extent. Method is no guarantee.

Malcolm wrote:
Then those people do not understand the theory. If method does not work, than view is faulty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
It seems to be more a matter of personal choice. Rainbow body is rainbow body, whether you go longde, togal or yangti. Perhaps a yangti practitioner is going to say yangti is higher. But why would it be higher if the fruit is the same?

Malcolm wrote:
Faster, more direct, more methods.



adinatha said:
Aside from rainbow body, there is also the fruit of complete manifest buddhahood, like Longchenpa.

Malcolm wrote:
Same thing. Can't attain rainbow body without being a Buddha. As far as that Abhisambuddhahood [complete manifest buddhahood] in Dzogchen is considered a lesser result compared with Samyaksambuddhahood. The former is with remainder, the latter, without remainder.



adinatha said:
Re mahamudra: The co-emergent unification oral instructions say explicitly that the fruit is unlimited. Rainbow body is not a concern.

Malcolm wrote:
Does not go beyond sems sde.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Enochian said:
Hi Namdrol,

What is the tibetan word for 'basis' that you have been using in this thread?


Malcolm wrote:
Depends on context.

The basis is gzhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Yangti higher than togal? Who told you that?

Namdrol said:
The yangti tantras.

adinatha said:
So what makes it higher than togal?


Malcolm wrote:
More methods, special methods, not taught in tögal. Even so, there has been some bleed over. One finds some methods of Yangti in cycles like Gongspa Zangthal and so on. Tögal is like the base for Yangti.

The simplest way to put it is that sems de works on with mind, but not with visions. In terms of the four visions klong sde works with space, but not with light. Tögal works with light, but not with dark. Yangti works with dark and other special methods which work with light. Since klong sde works with the four visions, this is why it is asserted that one can obtain rainbow body with klong sde. One cannot obtain rainbow body with sems sde.

This also the reason why it is asserted that one cannot obtain rainbow body with mahāmudra lacking tantric practices connected with the wisdom winds. I don't expect you to agree, but you should be aware of the reasoning.

Further, the yangti tantras assert that yangti is utter pinnacle of Dzogchen practice and theory. Perhaps the most famous yangti cycle is that of Dungtso Repa. The late Khetsun Zangpo was famous as one of the main promulgators of the Dungtso Repa Black Yangti teachings.

There are yangti cycles by Guru Chowang, Ngala Padma Dudul, Rigzin Chanchub Dorje, and so on.

As I keep stressing, there is a lot more to Dzogchen than Yeshe Lama and Thigle Gyacan. Can people obtain awakening from Yeshe Lama? Of course. Is there always more to learn, etc. Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Yangti higher than togal? Who told you that?

Malcolm wrote:
The yangti tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
It contains termas that range from anuyoga practices like Mandarava, Gomadevi and so on to yang ti. It includes all three series of Dzogchen.

adinatha said:
Yangti, what about Togal?


Malcolm wrote:
Well, yangti is higher than tögal, but yes, also that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
My impression was that NNR's termas were all Longsal. His mengagde teachings are from his master Changchub Dorje. That's what I thought. I could be wrong; I'm not an expert on his stuff.

Namdrol said:
The full title of Rinpoche's cycle is klong gsal 'od gsal mkha' 'dro snying thig, "Longsel" for short.

It contains termas that range from anuyoga practices like Mandarava, Gomadevi and so on to yang ti. It includes all three series of Dzogchen.

N

adinatha said:
the 8 volumes right?


Malcolm wrote:
Eight that have been published so far.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2011 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pero said:
I was just about to post this hehe. This belongs to sems sde and it seems Manjushrimitra wrote his rdo la gser zhun based on this?


Malcolm wrote:
yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 11:20 PM
Title: Kunsangar South Retreat with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Kunsangar South Retreat
OPEN WEBCAST
14th-20th May 2011 (Crimea GTM+3)

The teaching is Dzogchen Ati Yoga "Jangchub Semgom" (the Instruction of Primordial State)
14th May 4-6pm.
Introduction about this retreat's teaching.

15th May 10-12am.
Introduction about the Three Transmissions in Dzogchen and the real state of Ati Guru Yoga. Giving tridlung of Short Thun practice.

16th May 10-12am.
After practicing the Ati Guru Yoga altogether,how is the non correct or correct way of doing meditation and being in the authentic Primordial State (P.1-4).Giving tridlung of Short Gana Puja.

17th May 10-12am.
After practicing the Ati Guru Yoga altogether,how we recognize the defects of our meditation and how should correct the defects with the way of practice (p. 4-8).

17th May 12,30-1pm.
We do a Short GanaPuja for the full moon.

18th May 10-12am.
After practicing the Ati Guru Yoga altogether, how we should integrate the practice in our attitude and how manifest the signs of the practice is maturing (P.8-11). Giving tridlung of Medium Thun and Medium Gana Puja.

19th May 10-12am.
After practicing the Ati Guru Yoga altogether, how is the perfection beyond purification and accumulation and how manifest the all qualifications (P.11-15).

19th May 5-7pm.
We do a Medium GanaPuja for the end of this retreat.

20th May 10-12am.
Giving advices for how integrate daily life, giving tridlungs of Thun book and many other practices circulating booklets in Dzogchen Comminity.We finish our retreat with an Ati Guru Yoga and dedications.


Note: A text for this retreat will be available soon on the webcast files page.

http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
The reality of dzogchen, free from an object of meditation and a meditator,
the authentic condition unsullied with deluded objectifications,
is naturally sustained; since just this is one’s own condition,
The root Guru, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa
cannot be elsewhere far away, but is discovered within oneself.

Pero said:
I really like this, is it your own composition?


Malcolm wrote:
My translation, KDL's composition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Attainment of Buddhahood is impossible
Content:
Sherab said:
If your nature is changeable, buddhahood is not attainable since if your nature is changeable, the buddhahood attained could also change.
If your nature is unchangeable, no amount of practice will enable you to attain buddhahood, since your nature is unchangeable.

Yet Buddha taught that there is path to buddhahood.
And Buddha also taught that buddhahood is not attained.

Malcolm wrote:
Your whole line of reasoning is predicated in the idea of buddhahood being a thing. There is no substantial person, and no substantial buddhahood. Therefore, ignorance is possible, and also liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
The story about the  Phagmodrupa and Sakya thing goes something like, if I am remembering correctly, that Phagomodrupa thought he had realized the path of seeing and his Sakya Lama confirmed it... Then he went to Gampopa and Gampopa said his path of seeing wasn't worth the tsampa ball in his hand... so from then on he followed the Gampopa rather than the Sakya Lama...


Malcolm wrote:
In an autobiographical note, Dorje Gyalpo mentions that after Gampopa passed away (recall, Phagmo Dru spent only a single year with Gampopa) he returned to Sakya, but that from his perspective Sachen seemed disinterested in seeing him. After that, he travelled to the place from which he derived his nickname, Phagmodru.

The relationship between Sachen and Phagmo Drupa is related in the Stearns book on the early history of Lamdre. Much of what was compiled into the famed Lamdre Yellow Book (Pod gser ma) was originally compiled by Phagmodrupa.

It is likely that the tension between Sakya and Drigung that exploded through someone misunderstanding a remark made by Sakya Pandita really stems from the soured relationship between Sachen and Phagmodrupa.

BTW, if Sachen said that Phagmodru had attained the path of seeing, he did. You like paths and stages, Sean -- Lamdre has unmistakeable signs of all the paths and stages laid out in detail. If you don't have that sign, then you don't have that realization. This sort of very detailed presentation of the paths and stages of the Vajrayāna path is a speciality of Lamdre.

Phagmodru's presentation of Lamdre is the only surviving lineage of Lamdre outside of Sakya. It is considered perfectly valid by Sakya and was reincorporated into Sakya at some point.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 7:13 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
My impression was that NNR's termas were all Longsal. His mengagde teachings are from his master Changchub Dorje. That's what I thought. I could be wrong; I'm not an expert on his stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
The full title of Rinpoche's cycle is klong gsal 'od gsal mkha' 'dro snying thig, "Longsel" for short.

It contains termas that range from anuyoga practices like Mandarava, Gomadevi and so on to yang ti. It includes all three series of Dzogchen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 8:05 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
And Vimala...what stopped you from doing KDL guru yoga? Or did it not?

Malcolm wrote:
KDL was Vimalmitra's emanation.

The reality of dzogchen, free from an object of meditation and a meditator,
the authentic condition unsullied with deluded objectifications,
is naturally sustained; since just this is one’s own condition,
The root Guru, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa
cannot be elsewhere far away, but is discovered within oneself.

I am never removed from KDL's guru yoga no matter what practice I do. Words are secondary.

I have had now three important gurus die. The first one was Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje, his death propelled me into three year retreat (1993-1997). When KDL died in 2006, it was very sad for his students. Also when Khenpo Jigme Phunstok died, I was very sad since I did his practices in my retreat.

Nevertheless, they all are important, and I try to honor them with my study and practice. You might have figured out by now that I am a serious person. In that respect, I follow CHNN's temperament. We are both tigers.

I also like good wine, good scotch in moderation, good food, etc.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 7:38 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
KDL recommended Guru Rinpoche sadhana in Nyingthig practice didn't he?


Malcolm wrote:
Having received at various times Chetsun Nyinthig, Nyinthig Yazhi, Thigle Gyacan, and so on from him, as well as most of his various terma transmissions, while driving him to VT one time I asked him once which of these practices he thought I ought to do. He responded by saying that all of the samayas of these practices were no longer perfect. He then said I should do his guru yoga. He then went on to explain that a) it was better to practice new termas b) while the terton in question was still alive since it would be more powerful. He then supplemented his comments by remarking that ChNN was an incredible [ngo msthar che] master of Dzogchen.

KDL gave different advice to different people. But his main focus was always on Dzogchen. He considered all his students to Dzogchen practitioners, first and foremost. He did not stress preliminary practices for Westerners, but instead emphasized some light sadhana like Drollo, Chö practice, etc., and Dzogchen first and foremost.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 6:53 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:



adinatha said:
Love and family feeling is so precious. We had to learn to wear pants and collared shirts. Now you all have to learn to touch the father guru's feet. Then get up and take his hand with both hands and touch it to your forehead and kiss it three times. It immediately brings out a feeling of humility and love and tears will come out by themselves. And the guru softens and will share things that he never thought he would. You should try it. It opens you both up to an unbelievable possibility for the most precious dharma exchange. I swear. This is wisdom.

Malcolm wrote:
You really do not need to lecture me about guru devotion. I explained this to you already.

I am not demonstrative, especially online. I choose not to discuss these things online because I don't discuss my experience online. I understand your desire to want people to see things from your perspective. But you do need to allow that people are different and experience things in their own way. You have an effusive style. It would not get you very far with CHNN or KDL IMO, or maybe it would -- CHNN sees through people. If they are doing something which is not real, something contrived, he knows. When I first met ChNN privately, before offering a kata, I went to offer prostrations as is customary. He yelled at me, prevented me from doing them. But he accepted the kata. I will share only this much. After I met him, I was in a state of bliss for many weeks. High on Dzogchen. I am not an automaton -- just undemonstrative.

And as you know, we do not do prostrations to our teacher in Dzogchen Community by his express wishes.

I honor and respect my teachers through my persistent devotion to the Dharma they have taught me. That is sufficient, don't you think?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
You Indians are a very dramatic bunch.

adinatha said:
I know. "Oh, how droll. Quite unseemly." You New Englanders sure are dry. It's difficult for non-Indians to understand the Indian heart. Our love is extreme.


Malcolm wrote:
We are not so much dry as undemonstrative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
You mean like in the Prajnaparamita Sutra of a Single Letter? Just kidding. I get it. Primordial poteniality... Is the Guru Yoga of A in the VN or KN?


Malcolm wrote:
It is ChNN's terma. There is a text with it, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Buddhism is knowledge and personal direct experience.

Malcolm wrote:
I can agree with this. The rest of it is your trip. Not saying it is wrong, I just don't parse these things to myself in this way. I have confidence in the teachings of my Gurus and the Dharma I have received from them. That is sufficient for anyone else to know about me.

adinatha said:
Many Western families cannot date back far because this deep love and respect for mother and father is lacking.

Malcolm wrote:
No, mostly it is because economic and geopolitical conditions in Europe were very unstable for many centuries. Also the feudal system made it difficult to track families since people were treated as serfs, and surnames are a relatively modern thing.

In my case, my family is older than most Tibetan families. I can trace my direct ancestry back to Kenneth Mcalpine, the first King of united Scotland, eight century AD. This is because of the strength of the Scots clan system.

adinatha said:
In my culture, we touch our elders feet and never contradict them. Many Indian family lineages are thousands and thousands of years old.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, human beings all come from one place: Africa. Maybe we should give Africa some props.

adinatha said:
Westerners think this "bhakti" attitude is silly or beneath them. Westerners have a huge devil of pride. I marvel whenever I see one bow down before the teacher. I have never seen one grab the master's feet and press forehead down in earnest supplication to the great wonder of dharma with tears welling up.

Malcolm wrote:
You Indians are a very dramatic bunch.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 5:55 AM
Title: Re: lacking the capacity
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

So the endconclusion could be that Samantabadhra = Kuntu Zangpo.
But in Bon Dzogchen is no Samantabadhra known.

Could it be that Samantabadhra does belong to the Indian Dzogchen cycle and Kuntu Zangpo to the Tibetan Dzogchen cycle?

Best wishes
KY


Malcolm wrote:
Samanta = kun tu
bhadra = bzang po


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Enochian said:
How do the 3 wisdoms of vidya (kadag, lhun grib, and thugs rje)

relate to the 3 wisdoms of the basis (Essence, nature and compassion)?


Malcolm wrote:
They are the same thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
But the other levels of Guru Yoga NNR teaches are not in that category.

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure what you mean. More or less there are four basic guru yogas in the DC practice. Mahayoga style with Guru Padmasambhava; Guru Yoga of Ngondzog Gyalpo connected with Longde; Anuyoga style with Garab Dorje which is related to Yangti, and then Guru Yoga of White A.

Then there are many others, connected with various other transmissions and so on Rinpoche has given over the years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 5:43 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
If there is a realized master in an unbroken lineage, even a sutrayana practitioner can realize buddhahood in one life.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean a realized sutra master?

I don't think so. But we can agree to disagree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
No. It is all-encompassing, from sems sde to yang ti. There is no other guru yoga better than it, IMO. Of course, that does not mean one needs to remain in a state of limitation, if one has transmission for Thigle gya can, Chetsun Nyinthig, etc., it is also wonderful to do these more anuyoga style practices when time permits.

N

adinatha said:
Song of Vajra is yes I looked that up.

Malcolm wrote:
Song of the vajra is not guru yoga.

This is guru yoga: ཨ


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
It's about merit.

Malcolm wrote:
Merit gets you a good rebirth to meet Dzogchen. Once one has received Dzogchen teachings (or anything else for that matter) in a complete way and one understands one is doing, it is only up to oneself.

adinatha said:
Thinking of the guru and the wonders of the lineage is too hard.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is easy. Why do you think I have spent the past twenty years primarily devoted to learning and practicing?  It certainly isn't because I want to write a book.

adinatha said:
One needs a deep relationship with a realized master.

Malcolm wrote:
I am all set here, thanks.

adinatha said:
I would just leave it alone if condition one is not met.

Malcolm wrote:
Everyone has a body that begins to fall apart when the four elements begin with fight rather than cooperate.

adinatha said:
He was a Lamdre practitioner until he went to Gampopa and got Zen slapped by the lineage wisdom.

Malcolm wrote:
He never stopped practicing Lamdre.

adinatha said:
Namdrol la, you've given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate that.

Malcolm wrote:
Thank you.

adinatha said:
I can point to passages galore that bear out the importance of guru.

Malcolm wrote:
I have read them. I just don't talk about it. My root gurus are my root gurus. They are realized people. I just leave it at that. I don't really discuss that part of my experience. It's personal and not for public consumption.

adinatha said:
...union with the guru's mind.

Malcolm wrote:
I have said repeatedly that guruyoga is essential in Dzogchen -- this is basic, so basic it really does not bear repeating. But I am not much into so called bhakti style "devotion". I don't need it. I have firm confidence, so what do I need with faith? Of course, everything depends on a Guru. I just don't have any need to discuss it.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
I've heard you say that Yeshe Lama is a beginner's text. That contradicts what different masters have told me. That it is the best treatise on Togal.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, that's what they say.

adinatha said:
Also, that it's descriptions of method alone are sufficient for attaining the Rainbow Body.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it and a hundred other tögal texts.

adinatha said:
In the description of the fourth appearance of Togal, there are the two possible routes, you either look at your hand, etc. etc. I know that there are lineages that rely entirely on this text for the practice of Tregcho/Togal and yogis in Tibet who only practice this and nothing else. It is supposed to be the foremost instructions.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, that is true. There are other lineages. All of them produce realized persons.


adinatha said:
Is it your position that the Song of the Vajra is mengagde? My impression was that it is semsde.

Malcolm wrote:
it is not a position -- song of the vajra comes from the man ngag sde tantra Union of the Sun and Moon.

adinatha said:
I assume you hold Togal in high esteem. But then you somehow also think you still need to do chulen to dissolve the elements and attain rainbow body, right?
There are many reasons for chulen in Dzogchen. But yes, based on the teachings of both ChNN and KDL, chulen is a necessary secondary condition for attaining rainbow body. This is not just their teaching however, chulen is mentioned in the sgra thal gyur etc.
This means that Yeshe Lama is lying when it says its instructions result in Rainbow Body, because there is no mention of chulen in there.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the importance of chulen is commonly understood by Tibetan yogis. They do not need to have everything explained. For example, there is a bcud len text connected with Dechen Gyalmo in the klong chen snying thig called the Amrita of the Three Kāyas Chulen. In there it specifies that yogis who have abandoned activities must practice chulen continuously and that is it is contributing factor to awakening. It also specifies, among other things, that dharmakāya chulen has the power to separate the impurities of mind from the pure essence of rigpa. Perhaps you might want to revise your definition of chulen?


adinatha said:
I gather this is your position. However, there are high level masters in the Nyingma lineage who would take umbrage with this statement.

Malcolm wrote:
There is always someone to take umbrage with any statement. In the end, the only authority that counts is oneself.

adinatha said:
Guru Yoga in Dzogchen three levels and the third has four levels right? NNR's guru yoga appears to fall into the semsde or longde category.

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of ranking is more tantric style.

No. It is all-encompassing, from sems sde to yang ti. There is no other guru yoga better than it, IMO. Of course, that does not mean one needs to remain in a state of limitation, if one has transmission for Thigle gya can, Chetsun Nyinthig, etc., it is also wonderful to do these more anuyoga style practices when time permits.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
...involves entering the mahayana five path system by cultivating earth like bodhiccita as opposed to the hinayana system of the five paths.. otherwise there is no other basis to form the intention to buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
The five paths are irrelevant in Dzogchen practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
You mean the opposite. But don't worry, when you become a Buddha on the stages, then you will have ample time to perfect your realization.

adinatha said:
See. A buddha is omniscient and beyond time, by definition. I realize you are interpreting Dzogchen to assert there are levels of Buddha. Did Shakyamuni just think he was omniscient but didn't actualize it until practicing Dzogchen after "parinirvana"?

Malcolm wrote:
Irrelevant. Buddha was an emanation of Vajradhara, in turn, an emanation of Samantabhadra.

adinatha said:
This goes back to the Third Turning examples. When the clouds part and the sun shines through are the sunbeams developing? It's kind of silly to think so. When the crust of dirt around a gold nugget is chipped off, is the gold nugget developed? Also silly to think so. This is inside out level.

Malcolm wrote:
You are still conflating the basis and the result. Generally, ore needs to be smelted to bring out the gold. As for a gold nugget in a rock, still, something needs to be removed before the value of the gold can be actualized.

adinatha said:
The channels and winds depend on mind's condition, so a permanent rest in the mind's true condition automatically fixes and optomizes the vajra body.

Malcolm wrote:
if that were true, even sutrayāna practice would be as fast as Vajrayāna. But it isn't because actually it is the opposite, mind depends on the condition of the body.

adinatha said:
I really want to emphasize there is transcendent level of practice, transcendent because it does not operate by any worldly way of thinking, requires the blessing of the guru and then it's all automatic.

Malcolm wrote:
Nice theory -- I hope it works out for you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
Essence mahāmudra is a slow path, like sems sde.
This will depend on the lineage. I don't see how enlightenment in one life is a slow path. Even Manjushrimitra or was it Vimalamitra had to practice outer rushen six months of the year and togal the other six for fifty years or something like that. Time is totally relative anyway.

Malcolm wrote:
It does not utilize vāyu yogas on any level, unlike Dzogchen Nyinthig. It depends on yoga, not on lineage. If things depended on lineage, rather than practice, there is no reason why we all would not be buddhas by now.

adinatha said:
However I think that Dzogchen is faster, easier and has more detailed explanations of what is happening.
This will also depend on the lineage re faster. I don't know about easier. You have mentioned one needs to do togal, then rasayana and chulen.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, it depends on yoga and nothing else. Not a strong believer in blessings as a short cut. Yes, I know this is a Kagyu perspective. But I am not a Kagyu. I also understand that for some fairly rare people, serving their Guru is a sufficient path.



adinatha said:
I forgot to mention that yes, I think Tilopa realization is perfect, etc. Also there is chulen associated with the lineage of Tilopa, Naropa, etc.
Yes, but it is not included in the oral instructions that comprise the most secretive level of Kagyu. There chulen is explicitly said to belong to a lower level of practice, basically the two-stage yoga level with tummo and karmamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, chulen something related to relative condition. It is also important for the reasons I have specified.


adinatha said:
No. The outer part of the method does indeed work from interdependence. Drikungs are particularly partial to interdependence. Lineage blessings are not to be underestimated. They are the source of power. But the inner realization is beyond interdependence. There's no latter without the former. Period.

Malcolm wrote:
There are five levels of dependent origination. The final one is called ultimate dependent origination. This exists in Kagyu because Phagmodru was a Lamdre practitioner for his entire life. His Lamdre texts were directly written down from the mouth of Sachen. Before Phagmodru met Gampopa, he was Sachen's main student.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
There are many signs that one would reach if one had even gotten to the end of the path of accumulation, or even entered into the path of accumulation by cultivating bodhicittha that would let one know one was on the right path... A Buddha knows he is omniscient because he has seen directly the past aettnd future lives of not only himself but of every being in existence.

Malcolm wrote:
Signs of the path differ in different systems. The signs of the path of hinayāna are not the signs of the path of Mahayāna; the signs of the Secret Mantra are not the signs of the path of Mahāyāna; the signs of the path of Dzogchen are not the signs of the path of Secret Mantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 3:43 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
But here were are at where we started. Buddha Shakyamuni and Vajradhara cannot revert. I would argue then a master like Tilopa who realized the level of Vajradhara also cannot revert. His methods to realize Vajradhara prohibit reversion to the basis. Perhaps there are those Mahamudra traditions that do not have the capacity to realize Vajradhara's nature fully. But there are those that do.

Namdrol said:
I have mentioned elsewhere many times, and perhaps you have not seen, that the main difference between a practice of tantric Mahāmudra and a practice of Dzogchen that the former works from the outside in via the two stages, whereas the latter works from the inside out via the four visions. Both systems have the capacity to produce rainbow body.

Essence mahāmudra is a slow path, like sems sde.

However I think that Dzogchen is faster, easier and has more detailed explanations of what is happening.

I forgot to mention that yes, I think Tilopa realization is perfect, etc. Also there is chulen associated with the lineage of Tilopa, Naropa, etc.

mr. gordo said:
But you did say, and it is a bit depressing to hear, that Vajrayana practice
does not revert back to the basis.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean the opposite. But don't worry, when you become a Buddha on the stages, then you will have ample time to perfect your realization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
But here were are at where we started. Buddha Shakyamuni and Vajradhara cannot revert. I would argue then a master like Tilopa who realized the level of Vajradhara also cannot revert. His methods to realize Vajradhara prohibit reversion to the basis. Perhaps there are those Mahamudra traditions that do not have the capacity to realize Vajradhara's nature fully. But there are those that do.

Malcolm wrote:
I have mentioned elsewhere many times, and perhaps you have not seen, that the main difference between a practice of tantric Mahāmudra and a practice of Dzogchen that the former works from the outside in via the two stages, whereas the latter works from the inside out via the four visions. Both systems have the capacity to produce rainbow body.

Essence mahāmudra is a slow path, like sems sde.

However I think that Dzogchen is faster, easier and has more detailed explanations of what is happening.

I forgot to mention that yes, I think Tilopa realization is perfect, etc. Also there is chulen associated with the lineage of Tilopa, Naropa, etc.


adinatha said:
The methods that reach the level of Vajradhara are extremely abstract and profound, something like magic. So there is that.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, I think they are very straight forward and practical, nothing abstract about them at all. It all works based on dependent origination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
What does Vima Nyingthig say?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I have not found a chulen text in this cycle-- but I also have not looked, frankly -- though as I mentioned, chulen is mentioned as an important practice in the root tantra, sgra thal gyur and other places. In Vimalamitra's commentary on the sgra thal rgyur devotes more than forty pages to explicating a single verse on various chulens and concludes that chulen "...ultimately perfects the qualities of buddhahood".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2011 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
Won't there be another universal cycle at the end of this one? So sentient beings will continue to be reborn and thus are endless? And previous cycles have gone on indefinitely prior to this one as well right? Beginningless and endless.

Malcolm wrote:
Sentient beings will arise again. Necessary precondition for samsara.




adinatha said:
Even if you are right, and Buddha Shakyamuni and Vajradhara have to revert to the basis,

Malcolm wrote:
These are nirmanakāyas of compassion -- they are emanations of dharmakāya. They will never revert.

adinatha said:
according to the law of karma, they could never lose their statuses as buddha could they? Same for any buddhas of the previous cycle right? Again beginningless and endless.

Malcolm wrote:
Sentient beings who attain incomplete buddhahood revert to the basis. The basis arises because of left over traces since they did not finish their job, then samsara arises again. Then new sentient beings arise from the traces of affliction left over from the previous eon. In this way Dzogchen Nyinthig reconciles all sentient being attaining buddhahood with cyclical samsara. The basis itself of course is never altered nor does it change in anyway.

adinatha said:
It doesn't say in the Vima or Khandro Nyingthig that chulen is a prereq for rainbow body does it?

Malcolm wrote:
The KN recommends a chulen among whose benefits is "purifying rigpa", "removing obstacles of the elements" etc.

Chulen is important in Dzogchen practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2011 at 7:26 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
There is enough of tshig don mdzod translated to get the gist. There is a non-temporal understanding that underlies Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the basis i.e. essence, nature and compassion is atemporal. However, in terms of explaining why there is samsara how to become free of samsara, there is a temporal explanation. Without understanding that, one will not understand what one is doing in practice.

adinatha said:
Whose commentaries are you referring to? Vimalamitra's?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

adinatha said:
Only a tiny, tiny portion of original Dzogchen texts have been published in English. When the Khandro Nyinthig is translated, then people again will have to revise what they think, etc.
Or it will just screw up what is already understood better. Because Longchenpa took all these and compiled the Nyingthig Yabshi, then Jigdral Lingpa discovered the Longchen Nyingthig and the essence of the essence is Yeshe Lama.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't agree. But again, we are free to disagree (in a friendly way).

adinatha said:
The point is that all these various Nyinthig transmissions were refined and the best was extracted and refined finer and finer. This is an important point.

Malcolm wrote:
This happens in all schools. Much is lost in this process, IMO.

adinatha said:
Once one gets the clear understanding of the path of Togal, there's no point in doing anything else.

Malcolm wrote:
That's not true. It depends person to person.

adinatha said:
For example, I take issue that chulen is important for attaining the Rainbow Body,

Malcolm wrote:
Ok. Noted. Not what my teachers or Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas say. But suit yourself. I can name three masters who attained rainbow body for whom chulen was critical -- Shabkar Natsog Rangdrol, Ngala Pema Duddul and Changchub Dorje. There are many more. Chulen is critical for breaking attachment to food, among other things. But you can do as you please.

adinatha said:
The whole point of Dzogchen is that it is effortless.

Malcolm wrote:
Effortlessness does not mean what people thinks it means.

adinatha said:
All kinds of complicated steps and detailed knowledge screws it up.

Malcolm wrote:
If one's knowledge is not practical for oneself, or useful in clarifying things for others, agreed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2011 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Is there a calendar of scheduled future open webcasts somewhere? I've tried to locate one before so I can make arrangements to participate, but I can't seem to find a schedule.


Malcolm wrote:
Webcast Team < mailto:webcast@shangshunginstitute.org >

Write them and they will keep you up to date.

also see: http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Next webcast begins May 14th. For those on the East Coast the US it will likely run most days @ 2:00 AM.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2011 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Pure Lands
Content:
Madeliaette said:
Perhaps we should help to purify the land we already have birth in...?

Aemilius said:
The Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra, in chapter one,  says that this world is pure, but because your mind is not pure you see it as impure and containing all kinds of suffering and unpleasant nasty things.


Malcolm wrote:
That is correct and the reason why Vimalakiriti nirdesha says this is by nature a pure realm is that is that there are other Mahāyāna sūtras that identify this loka as an impure realm.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2011 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Incidentally, I think this citation show how sugatagarbha is understood in Dzogchen. The Lamp of Wisdom in the Gongpa Zangthal (Terma of Rigzin Godem) states:


"Therefore, the basis of all sentient beings is the primordial cause of buddhahood."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2011 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: lacking the capacity
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Well i can fully agree that Kuntu Zangpo would be here the source of the Dzogchen cycle of teachings and i guess that is common in as well Bon as well Nyingma.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, Samantabhadra is the ultimate source of all Dharma teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2011 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: lacking the capacity
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
My question was better said, which Buddhist elements are inside Dzogchen philiosophy or which are in a certain way common. One suggestion would be Sugatagarbha?

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness, dependent origination, karma, rebirth, five elements, eight consciousnesses, five wisdoms, five aggregates, etc.


kalden yungdrung said:
Garab Dorje is an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha.
This is new to me. Is this somewhere in a Dzogchen teaching from Prahevajra mentioned, or somewhere else in Garab Dorjes commentaries?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Shakyamuni Buddha is an emanation of Vajrasattva. Garab Dorje is an emanation of Varjasattva. Shakyamuni predicted Garab Dorje. This is detailed well in the lineage historys in Dzogchen Nyinthig.

kalden yungdrung said:
Yes i know that Kuntu Zangpo is here the primordial source and that would not be Buddha Shakyamuni[./color]

Malcolm wrote:
Samantabhadra is the dharmakāya of all Buddhas. 

Anyway, we don't have to get too linear about all of this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2011 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Oh.  So he didn't dig a hole back behind the monastery and throw all the pecha in, then.....that's good!

Malcolm wrote:
He interred them in a stupa.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
conebeckham said:
OH! Literally "buried," Namdrol?

A while back you commented that the Yangdak completion stage of the Khon/Kama might have been "buried." I thought you were speaking metaphorically!

Malcolm wrote:
'Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Lookin' for a copy of the Orgyen Menla Sadhana
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Whoops my mistake, the lung I received was for the sadhana of Sangye Menla from Mingyur Dorje, the Orgyen Menla sadhana lung (as I have been informed) is from Ngari Panchen.

Malcolm wrote:
You recevied both. CHNN always gives them together.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: CNN teaching Changchub Dorje's Medicine Terma
Content:
Pero said:
Oh man, there was a also lung for a tantra on the last day? It was the only day I couldn't participate because of mandatory school obligations. And this was the only day that I could participate coz I didn't have obligations (or more to the point:  I reneged on all my obligations!) so I got the lung and not the explanation

Anybody have any idea where can we can get a copy of the sadhana for the Orgyen Menla text and from which terton/terma it was from?

Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
You would have to write Shang Shung bookstore. This tradition comes from the termas of Ngari Panchen.

The tantra in question was quite short, six lines. No explanation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
Namdrol, I think I understand you a little better. You rely primarily on the Dzogchen tantras for your view and practice rather than on the terma cycles of the various gurus, except for your root guru, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Is that about right?

Malcolm wrote:
I have relied principally on my gurus, ChNN and KDL, their teachings and personal experience. After that, tantras, upadeshas, etc.

adinatha said:
I see you believe Guru Rinpoche is reliable, perhaps not all termas claiming to be from him are reliable for you. I would assume Vimalamitra is a reliable source of wisdom, no? Then, for you lineage is not that important.

Malcolm wrote:
I have not read all termas, but as we move down the road in time, termas about Nyinthig become more and more condensed since they are like refreshers. In terms of tantras, I primarily rely on the seventeen tantras, in of termas, I rely primarily on Vima Nyingthig, Khandro Nyinthig and Gongpa Zangthal. I also like Shabkar's teachings on Dzogchen; it and Ye shes bla ma are good beginner's texts.

adinatha said:
What's important is direct perception of Samantabhadra via the Song of the Vajra.

Malcolm wrote:
Song of the vajra is a supreme Dzogchen method, as it is stated in the Nyi zla kha byor tantra and in the earlier terma cycles of Nyinthig.

adinatha said:
I assume you hold Togal in high esteem. But then you somehow also think you still need to do chulen to dissolve the elements and attain rainbow body, right?

Malcolm wrote:
There are many reasons for chulen in Dzogchen. But yes, based on the teachings of both ChNN and KDL, chulen is a necessary secondary condition for attaining rainbow body. This is not just their teaching however, chulen is mentioned in the sgra thal gyur etc.

adinatha said:
Probably Yantra Yoga too?

Malcolm wrote:
Yantra is important because it helps regulate the karmic winds. Not completely necessary, but important.

adinatha said:
That would mean you don't think Yeshe Lama is the best source of information about Togal and Rainbow Body.

Malcolm wrote:
Ye shes bla ma is a wonderful text, but like all summaries, there are many important things it leaves out. It is a text for beginners. This is wh earlier I mentioned that Khenpo Ngachungs commentaries on Ye shes Bla ma which derived from supplementary oral instructions of the cycle are very important since they clarify many things in Ye shes bla ma that are not fully explicated.

adinatha said:
I assume you resort to a tantra about that? A medical tantra?

Malcolm wrote:
The tantra which best explains rainbow body at death is the Cremation of the Remains Tantra (sku gdung 'bar ba).

adinatha said:
For me, tantras and sutras are descriptions, but they can't get you into the practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed.


adinatha said:
You have to have a guru for that, by way of guru yoga sadhana as the head of a session. Then, because of that, some guru yoga sadhanas are supreme, where the master has completely invested his mind into it, and the sadhaka can Yog to him. Then, all that guru's wisdom is complete in that sadhaka. Lineage, guru yoga and sadhaka Yog to that is nirmanakaya, sambo, dharmakaya. Without these combined there's no possibility of realization. YOu've said that Namkhai Norbu stresses knowledge over devotion, but this is like a chicken and egg thing for me. There's only a stepped down version of knowledge from just resting in that nature that's pointed out. Guru yoga from a lineage has a power that's supreme in ripening beings.

Malcolm wrote:
Guru yoga is the main practice of Dzogchen, agreed. Like all students of ChNN, I do guru yoga in the most essential way. If I have time, then with more elaborations.

adinatha said:
You've also said that anyone can do Dzogchen, but how do you explain the extremely few rainbow bodies going on?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, for the first part: whether or not someone meets Dzogchen teachings depends on their karma. Dzogchen teachings themselves teach that one should not make distinctions in capacity. Dzogchen practice is based on a personal experience, not concepts -- I think you will agree. That personal experience can be shown to anyone. Everyone has the same basis.  But if they have the karma for Dzogchen, then everyone has the same basic capacity and the rest depends in their personal diligence.

That depends on diligence -- most Dzogchen practitioners attain buddhahood in the bardo. Only those of best diligence attain buddhahood in this body in this lifetime.

adinatha said:
How do you explain the fact that there are really probably about a couple handful of yogis who actually to Togal seriously. Also of them, most find it extremely difficult and don't reach fruition.

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone who even begins the practice of tögal will achieve full awakening in at most three lifetimes, if not during the bardo of dharmatā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
No sentient beings are endless...

Malcolm wrote:
Obviously, this is not held to be true in Dzogchen.


adinatha said:
An explanation is not a path.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen explanation of the basis informs the path. There are two explanations of the basis in Dzogchen: the general basis and the body as the basis. The second depends on the first, and the path depends on the second.




adinatha said:
Uttaratantra at the level of completion stage is just elements. But that is nonsense at the level of nonconceptuality, because there bliss is nonconceptual and not a vedana.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not what is being indicated. What is being indicated is that wisdom has a physical basis in one's body.


adinatha said:
I don't see a master who matches Longchenpa. His teachings are so awesome, because they blow out anyone's dogmas.

Malcolm wrote:
I am glad you are a Longchenpa fanboy but...his two most important Dzogchen commentaries (tshig don mdzod and theg mchog dzod) have not made it into complete English translation yet. When they do, a lot of people will have to revise what they think about Dzogchen. Beyond that, we now have 6 of the original 17 commentaries of the 17 upadesha tantras - including the root tantra, sgra thal gyur. When these are published, people will have to revise their understanding of Dzogchen. These commentaries are far more interesting than Longchenpa, indeed they are what Longchenpa read.

Only a tiny, tiny portion of original Dzogchen texts have been published in English. When the Khandro Nyinthig is translated, then people again will have to revise what they think, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
Namdrol said:
So, having received the Mahāmudra teachings of both Kagyu (Karma and Drikung) and Sakya (Lamdre/Yogini) and also many Dzogchen teachings, I decided for myself that Dzogchen was best, not because someone told me it was best, but because there are too many special features of Dzogchen that are unique and cannot be found elsewhere.

Nevertheless, all of these Vajrayāna teachings are profound.

mr. gordo said:
Namdrol,

Can you say something on the Khon Vajrakilaya practice in terms of it's influence in Sakya?  If there are pointing out instructions for Kilaya, I'm surprised that there wasn't more of a Dzogchen paradigm influence in Sakya.


Malcolm wrote:
Khon Konchog Gyalpo buried most of the ancestral teachings of the Khon.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 9:24 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
tamdrin said:
the idea that dzogchen is an "easier path" than Mahamudra is complete and utter hype!... The nyingmapa's do more ngondro's by far than any other sect to begin with.. Even in drikung the yangzab is traditionally done 400,000 times for each exercise, as opposed to 100,000 of each in the Mahamudra, then there are tons of Mantras for the 3 roots and everything that goes with it.. etc. just making a point

Malcolm wrote:
That is in Drikung.

In dgongs pa zang thal the original texts state one week of refuge, twenty one days of vajrasattva, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 9:22 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
For the reasons we have discussed above, I feel that the explanations Shakyamuni's sutras are more profound than the tantras sometimes. Consider how tantras arise. People want buddhahood now. Also some are not satisfied with what the buddha said earlier and demand more precision. Doubt gives rise to these in depth explanations of where everything comes from and where it is all going. Reading is not going to dispel that obscuration. It's a habit born from beginningless time. I contend that the buddha was never holding back. The ultimate fruit was always the same thing, because what's time got to do with it. If we want to get really down to it, this is all about love and what's that anyway? If Garab Dorje is right and we will all be enlightened, I don't mind going on and on and on. I can just practice love. Love is fantastic, miraculous; it actually has an energy wave to it. How pure this land would be if we only practice metta sadhana until the final eon. Such karma cannot be lost, so why not? Compassion cannot exist without sentient beings to liberate. Without compassion, there is no buddha. This buddha dynamic requires samsara. So what's the point abandoning it? Actually there is no point without it. Samsara is endless; therefore so is buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, that is the difference between you and me. I consider Dzogchen alone to be definitive. Everything else is either provisional or intentional.

Compassion does not require sentient beings. A Buddha's compassion has not objects.

Compassion is part of the natural state of the original basis whether there are sentient beings or not.

Dzogchen answers the questions: how do sentient beings arise? Where does mind come from? Dzogchen is fundamentally different because of the range of questions it answers, answers often fundamentally in opposition to long cherished sutra dogmas.

Dzogchen is different because of its explanation of the basis.

Texts like Uttaratantra do not even approach the explanation of the basis given in Dzogchen -- none of the Sarma tantras do. And so on, et al. Blah blah blah.

Uttaratantra says sugatagarbha is dharmakāya; Dzogchen says that sugatagarbha is the four elements in one's body.

This is one reason why sometimes I don't like Longchenpa's explanations -- he is a scholar used to defending Dzogchen against critics, and sometimes he uses sutra doctrines from a Dzogchen perspective but does not inform people what he is doing. One of those uses is sugatagarbha doctrine. He uses it to try to get people to understand a particular point -- but in my opinion, not so successfully.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 9:12 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
Part of what we've been debating about is the inseparability is why buddhahood is primordial and eternal. I take all my lessons from Vimala and Longchenpa.

Malcolm wrote:
I have been discussing with you why I think that taking the examples of in Uttaratantra literally is a mistake.

Basically, you are conflating the original general basis which we can term "natural buddhahood" with resultant buddhahood.

Padsambhava states:

Since The Rosary of Pearls also states “The stage of liberation is first”, there is liberation into the primordial original basis, that is called “the result of original purity exhausting phenomena”, that demonstrates the manner of the liberation of the final result.

This is subtle point, easily misunderstood.

The original basis,essence, nature and compassion, is termed "Buddhahood" since that is what is realized at the end of the path. But this is not what the Uttaratantra examples mean if taken literally. Essence, nature and compassion are one's potentiality. This is why Guru Rinpoche says:

After the mass of traces and the whole physical body of elements self-purifies, since the essence develops into kāyas (forms), it is not parted from nor put together with the three kāyas. Since the nature develops into omniscient wisdom, it is not parted from nor put together with the three wisdoms. Since compassion develops into activities of deeds, compassion is unceasing. Also that is stated in The Luminous Space:

The essence is the luminous empty jñānakāya,
nature and compassion are without partiality,
as they are totally inseparable, already Buddhahood.

So, in terms of a person's path, we can see that here there is a process of maturation of a potentiality.

Again:

As such, having given up the attached grasping of body, voice and mind with it’s physical matter, the body, speech, mind, qualities and activities develop and having given up the grasping of the five kāyas, there is self-arisen intrinsically clear self-liberation into the total original purity of the original basis.  The Self-Arisen states: 

The samsara of grasping at concepts is cleansed,
developing into the meaning of the jñānakāya itself,
that is to be called “Buddhahood.”

This is why, in this instance, the discussion about the liberation of Samantabhadra contrasted with the delusion of sentient beings is critical. If one does not understand this, and tries to apply the sugatagarbha teachings too literally to Dzogchen, then it becomes something very strange. And if one takes them literally in non-Dzogchen context, how is one different from the eternalist tirthikas?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 8:40 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
Really? Luminosity of Togal is clarity, rig-empty tregcho is basis...

Namdrol said:
Not really. These two things are not actually separate. They were only separated by later teachers.

adinatha said:
Obviously they are not actually separate, they distinction is made for purposes of explaining different stages of practice to people who have no experience.


Malcolm wrote:
They are not different stages of practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 8:20 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
Jinzang said:
And my experience has been that I haven't gotten anything out of Dzogchen that I haven't also found in Mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
From the POV of meditation, there is very little difference in meditating tregchö, inseparability of samsara and nirvana and mahāmudra.

There are differences in explanation and emphasis, but main point is more or less the same: equipoise in tha mal gi shes pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 8:18 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
Pero said:
That's not what I meant or thought I was saying. What I meant was that as far as I remember Milarepa achieved Buddhahood before Marpa did. However according to you that shouldn't be possible since you think that a student cannot surpass his teacher. In other words, Milarepa would only have been able to achieve Buddhahood only after Marpa had already achieved it.


Namdrol said:
Impossible, Marpa died before Milarepa attained realization.

Pero said:
Hmm, I don't remember that (or perhaps never knew). In any case it's not really clear to me what you're saying. Marpa died and achieved Buddhahood while Milarepa was still alive and he hasn't achieved it?

Malcolm wrote:
Just that Marpa died while Mila was shortly into his 12 years of retreat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 8:17 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Then, you attain another buddhahood that reverts to the basis. If you have a view that does not care what time it is, then what's the diff man?


Malcolm wrote:
There are many things about Dzogchen teachings that do not fit into the normative Indian Buddhist model. This is not the case with Mahāmudra teachings which are rooted into Indian tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 8:06 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
your still not explaining what is the "reality of the basis" and what reverting to the basis means clearly?


Malcolm wrote:
The basis is the three wisdoms: essence, nature and compassion. "Reverting to the basis" means that you have not eradicated all the most subtle traces in the elements of your physical body.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:57 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
Pero said:
That's not what I meant or thought I was saying. What I meant was that as far as I remember Milarepa achieved Buddhahood before Marpa did. However according to you that shouldn't be possible since you think that a student cannot surpass his teacher. In other words, Milarepa would only have been able to achieve Buddhahood only after Marpa had already achieved it.


Malcolm wrote:
Impossible, Marpa died before Milarepa attained realization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:55 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
According to Dzogchen teachings, all sentient being attain Buddhahood by the end of the eon -- this is very clearly stated by Garab Dorje in the commentary above.

adinatha said:
I was just thinking that this is very comforting; although it can't be the case. Then, there is no reason to practice anything, because I have a set destiny. I will be enlightened at the end of the eon.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is still reason to practice -- you have to attain a Buddhahood that does not revert to the basis. If you are passive, then...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Generally, alaya vijnana is karmic. Whether you say the undeluded version is "alaya" is of little importance. Guru Rinpoche explains this in his famous direct introduction.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean in the dgongs pa rang grol cycle?


adinatha said:
Really? Luminosity of Togal is clarity, rig-empty tregcho is basis...

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. These two things are not actually separate. They were only separated by later teachers.

adinatha said:
You're wrong. He never said Arhartship was buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, in the Pali canon, he even terms arhats Tathāgatas. Go argue about this with some learned Pali scholars.

adinatha said:
Omniscience was never possible for an Arhat. Hiniyanas interpreted Arhatship as the limit of accomplishment. The Buddha explains in Pali how buddhahood arises, due to bodhisattva practice and attending innumerable buddhas. None of this is contradicted by any of the higher vehicles.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you will find the Agamas and Nikayas nearly as pliable to Mahayana interpretation as you like.

adinatha said:
There is no actual Vajradhara, just like there is no real Samantabhadra.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes and no.

adinatha said:
...Samantabhadra is the nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Only in a very coarse presentation.


adinatha said:
You can't go shake their hand. Buddha is buddha. There is no level higher than omniscience.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there is -- as Samputa clearly explains. But this is something Sakyas/Nyingmas and Kagyus do not agree on. Kaguyus basically assert what you just have -- there is only one level of buddhahood, the elventh bhumi. When we see breakdowns into more bhumis, these are just refinements of bodhisattva levels -- but still only one level of Buddhahood.

Sakyas and Nyingmapas do not see it that way. So we will agree to disagree. we see qualitative differences in the omniscience of the three levels or six levels of Buddhahood. The funny thing is meditatively, and in terms of direct introduction and so on Kagyu and Nyingma are closer. But in terms of philosophy and basic attitudes about the path and so Sakya and Nyingma are closer. This is why when one leaves Sakya or Kagyu, there is only one place to go.

Moreover, in Dzogchen there is a further disctinction between Abhisambudhas and Samyaksambuddhas.


adinatha said:
This teaching makes absolutely no sense in the context of an infinite universe situation where there is no possibility that it all has an expansion and contraction. All sentient beings includes beings in all infinite universes. There must be something more to understand about Garab Dorje's explanation.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, I am merely reporting what Garab Dorje says. Perhaps all infinite triple dhātu world systems are part of one universe. There is a lot of slippage in the way we use the term "universe" and world system in relationship to Indo-Tibetan cosmology.



adinatha said:
What Lord Jigten Sumgon means is that the highest possible limit of a view is nongrasping. If a practitioner says, my view is Great Completion, Mahamudra or Madhyamaka is a grasping of the subtlest kind which prevents supreme realization. What he is saying is a conceptual view is garbage.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote][/quote]

I understand what he means. I think the way it is comes across however is that this sentiment causes Kagyupas to see all the Vajrayāna methods as just various options, more or less equal, whether from Sarma or Nyingma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:28 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
Dhondrub said:
I cant believe you guys are having this conversation. This teaching is better... no, my teaching is better... i came to the conclusion my teaching is the best.

And who said Marpa wasnt enlightend?

Malcolm wrote:
This is normal. Used to happen on e-Sangha all the time. This is one reason we shut the Dzogchen forum down.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:21 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


conebeckham said:
Alaya is not always considered alaya vijnana in Kagyu Mahamudra teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I thought so -- but there are also Kagyu teachings where they are more or less are the same.


conebeckham said:
I think Luminosity is Sambhogakaya, yes?  Empty nature is Dharmakaya....though I don't claim the Dzogchen usage of the term "luminous clarity" is the same as any meaning in Mahamudra, necessarily.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:18 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
If you read the Guysamaja tantra sixteen bhumi's are also mentioned so this is not something that is exclusive to "dzogchen".. In the Guhyasamaja it is said that the 15th bhumi is "wisdom" and the sixteenth bhumi is left un named..


Malcolm wrote:
It is a different arrangement. This arrangement comes from the one of the Dzogchen tantras. And of course the sixteenth bhumi is termed yeshe bla ma.

In Anuyoga, there is a system of twenty one bhumis, for example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:15 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
Take the following into consideration about whether Garab Dorje was making illustrations or saying something quintessential. The account of the rise of the universe and the enlightenment of Samantabhadra would only hold true in itself is there was only one universe that exapnds and contracts. But, even Shakyamuni knew and all buddhas know, there are infinite universes. For every universe that expands, another contracts and vice-versa. This would mean, if you take Garab Dorje literally, that there is one Samantabhadra per universe. It would also seem to mean a buddha's omniscience is limited to one universe, which contradicts the meaning of omniscience. This is absurd. The nature of mind transcends temporarinesses.

Malcolm wrote:
There can be infinite Samantabhadras in infinite expanding and contracting universes. Garab Dorje was only taking about the first Buddha in our particular series of eons and the lineage of Buddhas of Dzogchen teachings in this universe. "Adi" does not mean primordial, it means "first". This is why the Tibetans translate "adi" as "thog ma".



N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 7:10 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
Namdrol,
its true that it is not possible for there to be a basis beyond dharmakaya...

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't say this.

I said that there is a basis that is beyond the nature of the mind in Dzogchen. In mahāmudra, the basis is luminosity as in the luminosity of the mind.

Not so in Dzogchen.

In Dzogchen, 'od gsal is not considered dharmakāya -- this is a Sarma school consideration. This is not how Dzogchen parses things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 6:34 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
Alaya is deluded.

Malcolm wrote:
For sure in Dzoghen.

But this is a standard (non-Kagyu) mahamudra terminology. Here ālaya just means the inseparable clarity and emptiness of the mind.

It is true that the alāya is deluded in Dzogchen.It is true the terma ālaya it is considered the ālaya vijñāna in Kagyu mahāmudra teachings, but in other texts, for example, the Seven Points of mind training ālaya is not considered to be the same as ālaya vijñāna.

adinatha said:
The dharmakaya is not the alaya.



Malcolm wrote:
From a Dzogchen perspective, agreed. But the term is used differently in different schools.

adinatha said:
It's impossible there is a basis beyond the dharmakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
From a Dzogchen perspective, agreed. But what is understood as luminous clarity in mahāmudra, which is taken as the basis [gzhi] and is taken as dharmakāya, is quite different than what is understood as luminous clarity in Dzogchen. Same word, very different meanings.

Same thing with the term "ālaya" -- yes in Drikung Mahāmudra, influenced a little by Dzogchen, they make a distinction between ālaya and the the basis.

adinatha said:
The mahamudra lineage is the dharmakaya lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
The various mahāmudra schools make the clarity, emptiness and inseparability of the mind into the three kāyas. They may term the basis differently, etc. But the meaning is that same.

This is not, ultimately, the approach of Dzogchen.

adinatha said:
Story about the universe and all that, sounds nice, but it makes Shakyamuni a liar, that his teachings don't end the cycle of birth and death, because a reversion to the basis of alaya would entail being returned to the cycle of samsara in the following universal cycle.

Malcolm wrote:
I am simply reporting what Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, Shri Singha et al actually say. I don't need to interpret anything.

In Hīnayāna, Shakyamuni taught arhatship as buddhahood. In Mahāyana, he taught that arhatship was not buddhahood, and was inferior to buddhahood. And that in fact, after attaining arhatship, arhats would be roused from their nirodhasamapatti at some point and then they must traverse the paths of stages of Mahāyāna. So, was the Buddha lying in Hināyāna when he told his followers that arhatship was it?

In Vajrayāna, in the Samputa tantra it is clarified that there are three stages of Buddhahood. Two stages of Buddhas who do not recognize all phenomena as being the display of their own wisdom and the thireenth bhumi, Vajradhara, where all phenomena are so recognized. Does this make the Buddha a liar about Mahāyāna?

In Dzochen, there are enumerated another three stages, three more stages of those who dwell within wisdom, rendering the thirteenth bhumi a lower stage of buddhahood. Does this make the Buddha a liar about Vajrayāna?

In any event, this notion of "Buddhahood that reverts to the basis [gzhi, not kun gzhi]" as an inferior buddhahood that is not complete is well attested in Dzogchen. It has to be the case because as Garab Dorje points out, all sentient beings in the previous eon attain buddhahood by the end of the eon. This is explicitly stated by Garab Dorje in the commentary I mentioned to above.

But to illustrate my point further, the Drikung view is Dzogchen is definitely subordinated. For example, Jigten Sumgon states in Gongcik: “The supreme realization is not touched by the three great ones.” This is echoe of a statement by Gampopoa to his nephew, Gomchung.

But I don't during Jigten Sumgon's time Nyingthig was wide spread. At this point in history Nyingma was very much on the decline.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
heart said:
To be serious I am a bit surprised at this thread. I don't think ChNN needs so much advertisement, pretty sure he wouldn't like it. I wonder why you think it is important to do it?

/magnus

mr. gordo said:
Hi magnus,

This thread isn't so much an "advertisement" as much as a space where students of Namkhai Norbu can discuss practices within their community and help other members.  Threads of other communities and teachers are welcome as well.

heart said:
I am pretty sure ChNN expressed dislike with discussing DC practices online. But never mind it is not a big deal, whatever you like is ok but I doubt there will be other threads like this for other communities in this forum.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
We are not discussing DC practices.

That depends on whether people wish to discuss these things amongst themselves. So if there are more than a few Gomde people here, I see know reason why there would be such a thread.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:


adinatha said:
Well, the counter of this among high Kagyu lamas is that the realization of Dzogchen masters is rather small compared to the realization and activities of the great Kagyu masters. There's always another side, and it's not universally accepted that Dzogchen is the highest or the equal of Mahamudra. Not so much because the teachings are better or worse, but because the samayas and the power of Kagyu lineages are supreme.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and the Sakyapas say that both the Kagyus and the Nyingmapas exaggerate their masters realizations, blah blah blah, and that the Samaya of Sakya lineages is the purest, blah blah blah...

I base my understanding on what these teachings actually say. Not on gossip and competition.

So, having received the Mahāmudra teachings of both Kagyu (Karma and Drikung) and Sakya (Lamdre/Yogini) and also many Dzogchen teachings, I decided for myself that Dzogchen was best, not because someone told me it was best, but because there are too many special features of Dzogchen that are unique and cannot be found elsewhere.

Nevertheless, all of these Vajrayāna teachings are profound.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pero said:
OK will do, thanks. Tsch, I knew I should've listened to it, sgra thal 'gyur is my favorite tantra and I think I didn't have any big obstacles other than being an idiot.

Nangwa said:
I'm not 100% on the level of sgra thal gyur content in that day. I'm pretty sure thats the correct day but even if I am mistaken its still well worth a listen. I have to listen to it again to be sure.


Malcolm wrote:
It is a section of sgra thal 'gyur commentary he was talking about actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
conebeckham said:
SNIP
Thanks Sean -- from a Dzogchen perspective, one must differentiate between the ālaya and the basis. The ālaya is taking about the nature of the mind i.e. inseparable clarity and emptiness. But the basis is beyond the mind -- it is talking about the basis of everything, mind, the five elements, etc.

So there is a basis beyond the mind from a Dzogchen POV.

N
Could you perhaps explain this "basis-beyond-the-mind"?  Or is it not suitable for public consumption?

Malcolm wrote:
Essence, nature and compassion is the basis for all phenomena including the mind. It is quite different than the ālaya which is  a key feature of Sakya and Kagyu Mahāmudra teachings.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
I dont think so.. The nature of mind is emptiness and clarity.. this "basis" you are describing is "emptiness and clarity".. something beyond the ultimate is a fabrication of the conceptual mind.

Namdrol said:
Hi Sean:

For you, the mind is the basis.

For Dzogchen, the mind is not the basis.

N

tamdrin said:
No Malcolm:
This is not about me. It is about your distinction between the ultimate nature of the mind and the basis and then failing the make any distinction.

Have a nice day!

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks Sean -- from a Dzogchen perspective, one must differentiate between the ālaya and the basis. The ālaya is taking about the nature of the mind i.e. inseparable clarity and emptiness. But the basis is beyond the mind -- it is talking about the basis of everything, mind, the five elements, etc.

So there is a basis beyond the mind from a Dzogchen POV.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
I dont think so.. The nature of mind is emptiness and clarity.. this "basis" you are describing is "emptiness and clarity".. something beyond the ultimate is a fabrication of the conceptual mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Sean:

For you, the mind is the basis. This is standard Mahāmudra view. You are talking about the kun gzhi, the ālaya.

For Dzogchen, the mind is not the basis. This is not talking about the kun gzhi, the ālaya, this is talking about the gzhi, the basis i.e. ṣthiti. Completely different.

(To be fair, in some Dzogchen cycles the term kun gzhi is used as a synonym for the gzhi, but it is clearly differentiated from mind as the ālaya)

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
tamdrin said:
if you state that one can be liberated from possibility of rebirth in the lower realms other than the standard path it is realized on in sutra then I thought you could explain how this is.. It is not asking about arbitrary comparisons exactly..


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but it involves discussing things connected with thögal and I would rather not do this publicly. Dzogchen cosmology is one thing, this is different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Two things always cause arguments on Tibetan Buddhist boards:

1) Talking about the special features of Dzogchen not shared in other systems.
2) Talking about Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
you seemed to be implying that there was a basis beyond emptiness/clarity/ and compassion -which are basically the 3 kayas.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a basis beyond the nature of the mind. That's the point.

As to your other objection. I am presenting this for information. People do not understand these things well, primarily because most of this information is still locked away in Tibetan and historically it has been kept under lock and key by the Gelugpas i.e. they liked to control information, especially about Dzogchen and there is a tacit agreement not to rock the boat with radical upsetting Dzogchen doctrines.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
tamdrin said:
oh yeah, then what does ati say about it?, lets see some convincing quotes if u don't mind


Malcolm wrote:
I am not really into using the teachings for proving and negating.Only for clarifying what is unclear in people's minds.

If you are interested you can listen to webcasts with ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
heart said:
To be serious I am a bit surprised at this thread. I don't think ChNN needs so much advertisement, pretty sure he wouldn't like it. I wonder why you think it is important to do it?


Malcolm wrote:
Nonsense, ChNN likes advertising very much. I remember when I was president of Gakyil at Tsegyalgar, I said we must advertise transmission days. People said, oh no, ChNN wont' like that. So I wrote him, and he loved the idea. After that, membership in DC exploded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:


pemachophel said:
My point is that you should try to find a Teacher who completely sees you inside and out, knows all your good and bad points, knows all the ways you habitually con yourself, knows all the ways your habitually protect and aggrandize your ego, who can and does dismantle your kleshas with totally compassionate but also totally unwavering ruthlessness. When you find this kind of Teacher, then you simply do what the Teacher tells you to do.


Namdrol said:
2 more cents: the only person who dismantle your afflictions is you. No guru can do that for you. The best they can do is be a mirror.

N

Dhondrub said:
In an ultimate sense thats true. In real life: unless you have that trust in your Guru, who also has the qualities describes by Pemachopel, you easily just stray from the path and become a great meditator with an equally great ego.

Malcolm wrote:
This is my view:

In a relative sense that is true. Everything about your path is up to you. Your path, your responsibility. No?

If you want certain teachings, then you fearlessly seek a guru who will impart them to you. If you have to go through a hundred gurus, then you do. When you meet a guru who will give you the teachings for which you yearn -- your job is to put them into practice. It is not disrespectful to your other gurus to move on until you find the one who give you the teachings you desire. As you practice more, you learn more, and often you have to move on to find teachings you need. This is normal. Sometimes you have to get teachings from some other teacher to make sense of the teachings you originally got. Etc. But the point is you must never be passive. When you understand more or less perfectly the teaching you desire, then you must put it into practice. You have no excuse of you don't.

A guru's job is not to deal with our neurotic bullshit. It is amazing that they put up with any of it at all. A Guru's job is simply to give teachings for our own liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Clarence said:
What happens if, after practicing until death, one still hasn't recognized diddly squat? Would it not have been better to practice the gradual path? At least one has some mantra accumulations to count on in the bardo.


Namdrol said:
If you receive Dzogchen teachings and apply them, you will have nothing to worry about at death. I guarantee it, or money back.


tamdrin said:
anyone can potential be reborn in the lower realms until you attain the patience level of the path of joining..

Malcolm wrote:
That might be true in sutra, but it is not true in Dzogchen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
tamdrin said:
So you are saying that vidya is something relative, how then can realization of it be "the ultimate Buddhahood of Dzogchen".

Malcolm wrote:
Vidyā is recognition of the basis. Avidyā is non-recognition of the basis. The basis is essence, nature and compassion.

tamdrin said:
And what is this "basis" that is beyond even rigpa itself?

Malcolm wrote:
Essence, nature and compassion which are present whether they are recognized or not.

tamdrin said:
if there was a buddhahood that reverted it wouldn't be called Buddhahood now would it...

Malcolm wrote:
What lower yānas terms "Buddhahood" is what Dzogchen terms "buddhahood that reverts to the basis".


tamdrin said:
it doesnt make sense because sense both mahamudra and dzogchenhave described the ultimate nature of mind to be the inseprable union of emptiness and clarity..

Malcolm wrote:
It makes sense. The nature of the mind is not all there is to Dzogchen. If it were, I agree it Dzogchen and Mahāmudra really would be no different.


tamdrin said:
Only the Nyingma school accepts the division of all systems into the so-called nin yanas, so where does this leave the Buddhahood of the sarma which is the perception of ultimate reality by all means..

Malcolm wrote:
A Buddhahood that reverts to the basis. The Buddhahood of all nine yānas is a buddhahood that reverts to the basis.


tamdrin said:
It is funny to impute a basis beyond a basis (which would be rigpa itself.)>.  This is a dzogchen-centric world view and does not take into account the importance of the enlightenment of Buddha Shakyamuni, for without himt there wouldn't have been any turning of the dharma weels, and thus no base of buddhist awareness for the later teachers to make their cases...

Malcolm wrote:
Shakyamuni Buddha is the twelfth of the so called "twelve teachers" of Dzogchen prior to Garab Dorje. If you add Tonpa Shenrab into the mix, then Shakyamuni Buddha is important, but there have been many times in the past in this eon when Dzogchen teachings have been taught -- and often enough, without sutrayāna etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2011 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Clarence said:
What happens if, after practicing until death, one still hasn't recognized diddly squat? Would it not have been better to practice the gradual path? At least one has some mantra accumulations to count on in the bardo.


Malcolm wrote:
If you receive Dzogchen teachings and apply them, you will have nothing to worry about at death. I guarantee it, or money back.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:


pemachophel said:
My point is that you should try to find a Teacher who completely sees you inside and out, knows all your good and bad points, knows all the ways you habitually con yourself, knows all the ways your habitually protect and aggrandize your ego, who can and does dismantle your kleshas with totally compassionate but also totally unwavering ruthlessness. When you find this kind of Teacher, then you simply do what the Teacher tells you to do.


Malcolm wrote:
2 more cents: the only person who dismantle your afflictions is you. No guru can do that for you. The best they can do is be a mirror.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Clarence said:
So, even once one has become sure about what Rigpa is and is just working on stabilising that knowledge, nothing "cool" will happen?

Malcolm wrote:
What could be cooler than that? Everything else is just bells and whistles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: lacking the capacity
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
What does Buddhism incorporate inside the Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Not a clear question.

kalden yungdrung said:
- Is Dzogchen based on teachings stemming from Buddha Shakyamuni?

Malcolm wrote:
Garab Dorje is an emanation of Shakyamuni Buddha.


kalden yungdrung said:
- In case of yes how is this Dzogchen lineage called and which Dzogchen Masters are included?

Malcolm wrote:
Samantabhadra, Vajrasattva, etc., Garab Dorje, Manjshruimitra, etc.

kalden yungdrung said:
- Can one practioce Dzogchen without being a Buddhist?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Whoever follows the teachings of a Buddha is a Buddhist.

kalden yungdrung said:
- What is a Buddhist or when can one call oneself a Buddhist?

Malcolm wrote:
When one goes for refuge to any Buddha, his Dharma and his Sangha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Clarence said:
How come these people don't get what they are looking for? Are they all practicing wrong? You yourself said it is so subtle that it is hard to understand.


Malcolm wrote:
People do not understand what a "result" is. If they are happier, more mindful and more relaxed, what other result do they want?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Clarence said:
Great. Thank you.

Now, there is not just 1 site where Rinpoche's retreats and webcasts are located, right?

Another thing I was wondering about though. Will practicing the methods described in the Precious Vase allow me to recognize Rigpa, even without having any further close contact to Rinpoche? How does that work exactly?

And, you told Mr. Gordo it all comes down to interest and diligence, but there seem to be so many people who practice Dzogchen, who then just give up because they don't get results. How come these people don't get what they are looking for? Are they all practicing wrong? You yourself said it is so subtle that it is hard to understand. Doesn't one need a kind of close relationship with a teacher then?

Many thanks once again,

Clarence

Malcolm wrote:
This is the main webcast site.

Rigpa is just your knowledge of your state. So yes, practicing this methods in these books will being you to that knowledge.

You try to listen to as many retreats as you can.

They are mostly being broadcast without restriction these days and if you become a member you can listen to replays.

You just need to hear the teachings a lot -- that is the advantage. If you have serious question, you can always email Rinpoche.

And you must try to go meet him in person.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Clarence said:
How does on go about getting pointing out in the Dzogchen Community? I saw there is a retreat in Merigar from 14th to 20th of this month with a webcast. Where can I sign-up or listen to the webcasts?

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now, if I don't recognize during pointing-out through the webcast, do I then have automatic permission to practice the methods to recognize?
Yes.

Clarence said:
You said they are the Lojongs, Semdzins and Rushens, right? Are there more?  How do I know how to practice them? Does DC have teachers available who can help or how does this work?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there are teachers of SMS who teach Rinpoche's Precious Vase. You can study with them.

Clarence said:
Is it possible to purchase and practice the Semdzins, Rushens, etc. booklet having received pointing out from other masters?

Malcolm wrote:
No, in order to purchase any restricted book, one must be a member of the DC. That is not so expensive and has many benefits.

Clarence said:
So, basically, how should a newcomer to the DC go about his way?

Malcolm wrote:
You should listen to webcast, see if ChNN inspires you. If so, become a member of DC in your local region. By books for practices that interest you. Learn them well. In particular, you must buy Precious Vase. As well as sadhana book called the Thun Book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
Primordial Buddha: beginningless vidya. Youthful vase body. Five lights. Self-sprung simultaneous appearances of samsara and nirvana. Samsara spontaneously emptied because no three times, due to immediate responsiveness of dharmakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, it is important to understand three things: the general original basis, the reality of the basis, and how ignorance manifests. In addition to that it is necessary to know that Garab Dorje's commentary on the Single Son of the Buddha's tantras supplies a necessary understanding I will address below at the section on the arising of the basis.

The Unwritten Tantra (Yi ge med pa describes how the general original basis exists:

“There is no object to investigate within the view of self-originated wisdom: nothing went before, nothing happens later, nothing is present now at all. Action does not exist. Traces do not exist. Ignorance does not exist. Mind does not exist. Discriminating wisdom does not exist. Samsara does not exist.  Nirvana does not exist. Even vidyā itself does not exist i.e. nothing at all appears in wisdom. That arose from not grasping anything.”

This is the state of original purity, The Blazing Lamp says:
Within initial original purity
the nature is like so:
not made by anyone, manifesting naturally,
the nature is already just so.

In this state, The Rosary of Pearls states:
The mere term delusion cannot be described
within the original purity of the initial state,
likewise, how can there be non-delusion?
Therefore, pure of delusion from the beginning.

The Heart Mirror states “ All phenomena of the basis must be understood as the trio of essence, nature and compassion. All phenomena of the essence must be understood as emptiness. All phenomena of the nature must be understood as luminosity. All phenomena of compassion must be understood as pervading all sentient beings. ”

So, of course, there must be essence, nature and compassion, timelessly present as the basis. Without these wisdoms, there can be no nirvana and no samsara. We can term these three "sugatagarbha" if we like. Padmasambhava states in the Clear Mirror:

Those three wisdoms pervade Samantabhadra and sentient beings down to the tiniest creature without any discrimination of good or bad, high or low.

Since these three wisdoms are themselves not established in anyway at all, we can be sure we are free from eternalism. Since these three natures always appear, we are free from annihilationism.

adinatha said:
Vidya arises simultaneously with 8 vijnana. A moment of nonapprehension: sentient being. A moment of apprehension: Samantabhadra. No two moments, even though deluded discriminating mind sees two moments and re-liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
In the system of the Dzogchen Nyinghig three causes of ignorance are described -- those three are essence, nature and compassion. This is why there are three ignorances in this system. The system of explanation of Gongpa Zangthal is a little different, with only two ignorances -- we will continue with the Dzogchen Nyinthig system.

According to Garab Dorje, prior to the arising of the basis which is latent during the dark eon interval, nevertheless there are traces of affliction and action remaining from the previous eon. Because of these traces, the basis is stirred, the five lights appear and so on (this is why the Dzogcgen doctrine of two different kinds of Buddhahood is critical -- the first, the buddhahood that reverts the basis is the buddhahood asserted by all lower vehicles. The buddhahood that does not revert to the basis is the preserve of only Dzogchen).

The Gongpa Zangthal cycle supplies that during the arising of basis there is a neutral awareness (shes pa lung ma bstan) in the basis that does not recognize itself. This non-recognition is the innate ignorance. When this neutral awareness cognizes the five lights there is a dividing line between nirvana and samsara. When a neutral awareness recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own appearances it is is prajñā and is immediately liberated. That is Samantabhadra. A neutral awareness that does not recognize appearances as its own appearances immediately is the imputing ignorance, and samsara begins (again) because subject and object is imputed. This is all very clearly explained in detail in the eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyinthig. This is also clearly explained by Khenpo Ngawang Palzang.

adinatha said:
Key point: innate enlightenment arises simultaneously with innate ignorance.

Malcolm wrote:
After the basis arises, innate ignorance is first and even Samantabhadra has it. There is period where a neutral awareness does not recognize itself in anyway. That is the innate ignorance. It (the neutral awareness) can only recognize itself through the display of five lights. When it recognizes that display as its own display, then this is the liberation of Samantabhadra without the performance of an iota of virtue. We on the other hand did not recognize these five lights as our own display, and for us, samsara began, without even an particle of non-virtue having been done.

According to Dzogchen teachings, all sentient being attain Buddhahood by the end of the eon -- this is very clearly stated by Garab Dorje in the commentary above. But there are two kinds of Buddhahood, and as I said above, there is only Buddhahood that does not revert to the basis, and that is the Buddhahood attained through Dzogchen methods. The Buddhahood of other vehicles reverts to the basis, without the corresponding result.

Now then, the reason why we cannot take these metaphors in Uttaratantra literally is that the basis is not Buddhahood. If the basis were Buddhahood, there would be no need for any kind of recognition.

In Dzogchen, there is a difference between the basis and the result. The difference is simply vidyā and avidyā and the recognition and non-recognition that comes from those.

Further, it is not enough merely to understand the general original basis. One must also understand the human body as a basis.

I will not discuss this here since it is not a proper topic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
heart said:
If your Guru can't cut through your ignorance his teachings are just words. You need a killer.

Pero said:
Hmm I'm sorry but I don't see how that's an answer to my question.

heart said:
What I am trying to say is that you should you choose your Guru on the base of how clearly and deeply he/she can show your faults because then the path will have both depth and heart. For sure it is a karmic connection I am talking about here. Choosing what seems like just an easy path is not so clever.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
This is sort of a Kadampa view.

We choose Vajrayāna because it is better, faster, easier. Then among Vajrayāna teachings, we choose better, faster, easier. This is in line with Triptikamālā's statement:

"Although the goal is the same, since it is unconfused,
with many methods, not difficult,
and mastered by those of sharp faculties,
Mantrayāna is superior."

There is no reason to choose a teacher other than to gain liberation as fast as possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
Jinzang said:
Yes, your Drikung Kagyu teachers.

And my Dzogchen teachers.
Pardon me for stating the obvious, but:

Dzogchen is an important part of Drikung Kagyu through the Yangzab cycle of termas. And there are qualified Dzogchen teachers within the Drikung. So it has no reason to denigrate Dzogchen or elevate Mahamudra. Both are a part of Drikung.


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Jinzang:

I also have Drikiung teachers such as Gyalpo Rinpoche and Traga Rinpoche. He and Traga Rinpoche are the premier qualified Dzogchen teachers within Drikung, IMO.

Dzogchen may be a part of Drikung, but it is generally encased in the overall Drikung approach. This is not a bad thing, per se -- that depends on the student. However there is a need among Sarma teachers to make their completion stage practices equivalent on some level with Dzogchen teachings -- we see this in the writings of Sakya Pandita, we see this with HH Dalai Lama's teachings, etc.

Side note: Yangzab, in the Tibetan context, largely considered an "Ani practice", and was mostly practiced in nunneries. Yangzab is a pure Nyingma cycle. The best commentary on Yangzab was not written by a Drikung master, it was written by one of Dudjom Lingpa's sons for which Traga Rinpoche gave the transmission.

Yangthang Tulku, when giving the preliminary practice section for Yeshe Lama many years ago, remarked that for Mahāmudra you have to be very smart, because there are not so many methods. Dzogchen was easier (hence better as easier is always better) because it had many methods.

You may not like this fact, but indeed there are many Dzogchen teachings that assert that Dzogchen is superior to Mahāmudra, identified in this context as the view that arises from anuyoga.

You do not have to believe it. But do not make the mistake of thinking that the Dzogchen tradition does not hold itself as unique and superior, for it does.

The point of my saying this is not to make other people feel bad. The point of my saying this is let people understand that while it may be the case that in the Kagyu schools there is an general consensus that Mahamudra and Dzogchen are just different ways to get to the same result, this consensus is not shared by the Nyingma school or by the textual system of Dzogchen. I am not suggesting that one must agree with the Dzogchen POV, merely that it exists.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Namdrol said:
And even better, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu really is an awakened master.

rai said:
1.Would you advise people who are following other teachers , maybe in different traditoins to receive transmission from Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche , just to make the connection?

2.How do I keep the transmission afterwards if I am not doing any Dzogchen Community practices? just by doing any Guruyoga?


Malcolm wrote:
As to question one, yes.

As to question two, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
pemachophel said:
"I don't want to do ngondro. So I'll become Lama X's student because He/She doesn't require ngondro." To me, that's not a very intelligent way of choosing one's Guru. Having chosen your Guru and been accepted by Them as a student, one simply does what one is told to do.
.


Malcolm wrote:
The teacher/student relationship is not a servile or feudal contract.

If you dont like the way a given teacher or lineage approaches Dharma you are free to leave.

If you find a given yidam is not to your taste, you are free to stop practicing that yidam.

Etc.

If you don't to do a traditional Ngondro, you don't have to. And you can find teachers like Kunzang Dechen Lingpa and ChNN who will teach you with making any prerequisites at all apart from your interest in the teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2011 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Thank you for your concern for my understanding and for your support. I will take this under advisement and give it the due consideration it deserves.

Malcolm wrote:
Generally speaking, the liberation of Samantabhadra and the delusion of sentient beings is found among classical eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyingthig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Lung
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

Is the Lung known in Tantra the same Lung we know in TTM?
When there is a difference why would that be?

Best wishes
KY

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is the same. Never different, always the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
You can't answer the question because you have not faced the fact that even Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance. The answer is that Buddhas cannot make mistakes, and this is why we cannot take the symbols in Uttaratantra literally.

adinatha said:
Faced the fact? How do you take a gestalt literally or nonliterally? It's just a wrong approach altogether. There's no timeline. Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance?  Ummm... primordially pure. Buddhahood has no beginning. Was that perhaps a typo? You are Dzogchenpa right? I'm talking about an intuitive truth, not a logical one. The logical one is a sheep being eaten by a lion.

Malcolm wrote:
You need to study Samantabhadra's liberation then you will understand things a little better.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 8:00 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
Namdrol said:
This is why Dzogchen is better. It can be demonstrated to anyone.

adinatha said:
Oh boy... I don't think so. Not based on what I see.

Malcolm wrote:
I am just reporting what both Dzogchen tantras and upadeshas maintain.

I don't follow the words I hear in the marketplace. I follow what Dzogchen teachings actually say.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 7:57 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
adinatha said:
Saraha

Malcolm wrote:
It is impossible that Saraha was prior to Guru Rinpoche.

It is probable that there was more than one siddha called Hūṃkāra.

It is a fact that Indian lineage lists are hopelessly confused.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 7:47 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:


adinatha said:
Huh? I don't follow this at all. Sorry. Don't termas originate with Padmasambhava?

Namdrol said:
No, not all.Vima Nyinthig is in a large part Chetsun Senge Wangchuk's terma -- no relationship to Padmasambhava at all.

adinatha said:
ummm. khandro nyingthig? hello...


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Khandro Nyinthig is a terma credited to Padmasambhava-- I was merely making the point that not all so called "gter ma" are connected with Padmasambhava.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
adinatha said:
Excuse me username. It's not just me who thinks these things. I discuss stuff like this with my teachers all the time.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, your Drikung Kagyu teachers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
tamdrin said:
One is not better than the other that is ridiculous..

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, people who feel that way never become Dzogchen practitioners. Why would they?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 9:50 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
So yes, the total field of emptiness has both ignorance and buddhahood.

Namdrol said:
You did not answer the question:

Either you are not a Buddha because you made a mistake, or Buddhas make mistakes.

adinatha said:
Your question is a nonstarter, because it's limited to temporal contingent logic. Your question assumes a before and after or a yes or no. Before you can become a buddha you have to stop making a mistake. Or you were a buddha, but then you made a mistake. But there is no before or after, no sentient beings or buddha.

Look at the faces and vase gestalt. Which comes first the face on the left, the face on the right or the vase in the middle? Are they simultaneous or none at all? Is black first or white? Is the vase correct and the faces incorrect or vice versa? Is it right to not make these discriminations and wrong to do so? Where is the vase or faces, really? So do you actually see these somewhere? These discriminations are no where and yet there somehow; that's the unavoidable reality. It is a most profound and deep mystery. Pure magical display. But it's not a mistake. Even the discriminations are just like the gestalt display, absent yet apparent.

A Buddha doesn't conceptualize these forms or a buddha seer, and just leaves it all be. Yet the whole gestalt of emptiness and forms appears magically. Once you see how this is the case, you will be in the Ati dimension of instant intuition. A sentient being sees this or that and holds to it. But it's not right or wrong. Consistently trying to hold to one side would go against its real nature, and would result in a consistent exertion of energy that results in suffering. A sentient being isn't making a mistake; it's a suffering. But just like there are two faces, there is suffering and nirvana.

Perception's fact is not touched by time or logic. Using the word as a verb instead of a noun, "to buddha" is to see the gestalt-like quality of all appearances and possibilities, where there is arising of form, no arising of form, seeing and no seer, all at once and not at all, just pure magical display with no trace of a source. Appearance is no appearance.

In the example of the Buddha inside the decaying lotus. You see the Buddha inside the decaying lotus. The decaying lotus is not hiding the buddha. The decaying lotus is luminous too. Even though the lotus emits a foul odor, there's buddha. In the example of Indra's face reflecting in all realms, every reflection is this gestalt-like buddhahood in action. You have to see that emptiness encompasses both extremes of ignorant sentient being and omniscient buddhahood. It is one total tathagatagarbha.

The this vision is the fruit which is inseparable from bliss and equanimity. It's not possibly the wrong path, because it is the end of the path. Once understood, there's nothing left to do, one's instant intuition is inseparable from omniscience and sentient beings are liberated in natural course.


Malcolm wrote:
You can't answer the question because you have not faced the fact that even Samantabhadra once possessed ignorance. The answer is that Buddhas cannot make mistakes, and this is why we cannot take the symbols in Uttaratantra literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 9:47 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


coldmountain said:
I appreciate the response. As I've said before, by way of being forthright about where I'm coming from, I really don't believe in mind or matter - I don't know what those words actually refer to. All I know is experience and reason, I don't have any access to any reified stuff called mind or matter. What I’m really caught up in is evidence. And I wouldn't dismiss the validity of analysis/reductionism too much since Buddhism has employed it since the very beginning to establish anatta.

You think, therefore you have a mind. That mind perceives matter as color, shape, sound, taste, odor and texture.

I'm honestly confused about your ontology here. First you said you are not a dualist, then you claim that mind "inhabits" a body/brain and that the body/brain are conduits of mind. What is this if not classical dualism in a nutshell?
No, it is not. It is more like talking about a flower and its scent.

Again, first you say that cognition is dependent on the brain and then that cognition does not take place in the brain. If words have any meaning, then there has to be some reconciliation here. Is it your view that matter is mind -- that they are ontologically identical -- or is it your view that they are different? If they are different, on what grounds are the two distinguished?
Sentient beings think. It is a function of their being sentient. Their minds and their bodies form a non-dual continuum. Mind and matter are inseparable. There is never any mind in absence of matter. We talk about them as separate, but they are not really separate. The reason is that we do not conceive that matter thinks. But those who assume mind is a material process do not understand thought as anything more than a bunch of chemical reactions in a nervous system and therefore, they cannot imagine anything beyond this. We talk about mind and matter dualistically because it is obvious that thought influences matter and matter influences thought. But they are no more separate than heat and your body.

Buddhism seems to impose a problem I otherwise would not even have any inkling of: rebirth.
Buddhism makes no sense without rebirth.

I do not approach reality so dualistically. Let me put it this way: if someone gets a disease, is that the result of karma? I was diagnosed with diabetes a couple years ago. Is this the fruit of a past life? Or is it genetics? My father was diagnosed around the same age. Genetics suffices to explain this, and modern medicine is what keeps me going - whereas a Buddhist living in the pre-scientific world might believe such an occurrence to be the result of karma. And conversely, believing in karma never resulted in finding a cure/treatment for the actual cause of disease, which is not the result of a moral cause but a, well, physical one - whatever "physical" really means. Clearly one of these theories about the cause of disease is right and one is wrong. One is relevant and the other superfluous.
They can both be right, both karma and genetics. Your karma was to be reborn a human being, and you selected parents in the bardo, one of whom had a predisposition to diabetes. Both explanations are true.
I understand, at least in some measure, and I take seriously the truth that there is more to reality than can be objectified. If I didn't then I couldn't take many of the Buddhist ontological claims seriously, and I do. Perhaps "reality" in the reified, abstracted sense can be called the "surface", but it seems to me that one who rejects science wholesale in such a way is really imposing a deeply dualistic conception of reality where the "outer" reality apparently has nothing to do with the inner.

Malcolm wrote:
I did not say outer has nothing to do with the inner, I said science only explains the surface of reality. It does not plumb the depths.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:


adinatha said:
Huh? I don't follow this at all. Sorry. Don't termas originate with Padmasambhava?

Malcolm wrote:
No, not all.Vima Nyinthig is in a large part Chetsun Senge Wangchuk's terma -- no relationship to Padmasambhava at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 9:31 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
adinatha said:
Then there is an older tradition of instantaneous mahamudra that is not taught anymore, but is subsumed within Longchenpa's interpretation of immediate Atiyoga taught in his Treasuries.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not even slightly.

adinatha said:
The true sahaja-mahamudra is only possible with an exceptional guru and an exceptional disciple.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why Dzogchen is better. It can be demonstrated to anyone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 9:26 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
tamdrin said:
Yes my sentiment all alone, well said!

Malcolm wrote:
This is because you and adinatha are both Drikung Kagyus.

Anyway, Adzom Drugpa presents the four yogas of mahamūdra as sems sde in his major commentary on Dzogchen, as does Tulku Orgyen.

Even so, four the yogas are not really the same as the four samadhis of sems sde.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 9:22 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
username said:
ChNNR uses the term "presence"...

Malcolm wrote:
Is ChNN's translation of dran pa i.e. mindfulness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2011 at 9:20 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:


tamdrin said:
The difference between "tantric Ngondro" and "dzogchen Ngondro" as I have seen it presented in longchen nyingthig and drikung yangzab is mere chose of words- it is stylistic more than anything (not talking about rushen etc..)

Malcolm wrote:
Longchen Nyingthig ngondro is outer ngondro. The inner ngondro of Longchen Nyinthig, the actual Dzogchen ngondro, is called "Stairway of Liberation" i.e. the seven mind trainings, rushan, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Pure Lands
Content:
tamdrin said:
The teachings of Guru Rinpoche say that this world is the pure land of Buddha Shakyamuni.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is not Guru Rinpoche's teaching, this is standard.

Basically, the term is buddhakṣetra, buddhafield. The Sāhā universe is Shakyamuni's buddhakṣetra or zhing khams. Zhing khams is mistranslated as "pure land" - but there are actually two kinds of zhing khams, pure and impure. Sukhavatu vyuha, Bodhisattva Dipaṃkara's buddhakṣetra, Sukhavati, is a pure buddhakṣetra; the Sāhā universe is impure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
Namdrol said:
Yes, what about these things? You have to discern what is culture and what is dharma for yourself. But when you do, make sure you are not excluding what the Buddha actually taught.

coldmountain said:
It is not very simple to discern what the Buddha "actually" taught.
Cognition is not located in the brain.

At a certain point, these questions are useless. They are not helping you.
Apparently that certain point is very easily crossed, and it appears to be where dialogue ends and religious faith picks up. As soon as I read "questions are useless" I know I have reached the end of the conversation.

Thanks for your input.
Peace.

Malcolm wrote:
It is very simple to discern what the Historical Buddha actually taught. It is in the Pali canon.

When I said these questions are useless, they are useless for getting closer to the meaning of liberation.

My point was that no one can answer these questions for you in a satisfactory way.

You are trying to reconcile an experiential phenomenology with reductionist science. It won't work. You are too caught up in matter. Matter is intelligent, this is obvious because your body is made of matter and you are also a thinking being. Human consciousness is a function of the whole complex of what we call human. The same goes for bats, and so on. Your cognitive limitations are imposed by the body you inhabit unless you cultivate samadhis. If you won't train in samadhi, there is no way you can ascertain the Buddha's teachings about such things as rebirth and karma. If you need someone else to sign of on the truth of your experience, you will never attain awakening. Of course we can engage in lengthy sociological analysis of karma and how it is used as a power structure to keep people in their place. No doubt those cloaked in the mantle of Buddhism have used this teaching to try and keep people in their place. However, karma is not fixed, and it can be changed. This is what I mean when I say these questions are not helping you. They have nothing to do with your experience as a practitioner. There is only one way that experience can be gained -- through cultivating practice.

Until you break through doubt, your meditation practice will never advance to insight and will remain at the level of shamatha. Shamtha is great, but until you cut through doubt, it will never advance to Vipashyāna. You will never remove your doubts about such things as rebirth and so on until you have personal experience of rebirth, memories of past lives you could not possibly invent.

Buddhadharma is deeper than science. Science only explains the surface of reality, it does not explain reality.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: CNN teaching Changchub Dorje's Medicine Terma
Content:
seraphim said:
Wonderful! And a question to those who have attended; on the last day during lung, there were several last minute lung additions, one was for Orgyen Menla and Medicine Buddha, and one I wasn't sure seems to be for Sangye Seychig Gyud, can anyone confirm please?


Malcolm wrote:
it was the sras gcig pu rgyud tantra from Khandro Nyinthig/Gongpa Zangthal


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 7:00 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
coldmountain said:
But even the Buddha said to not accept teachings just because he said them, but only if they agree with experience and reason (do you think the Buddha would turn someone away from the sangha just because he is not convinced of a specific theory?) For instance, it makes sense that, just as the Christian church did, Buddhist culture eventually came up with absolutely horrific ideas of hell regions with punishments well beyond what any unbiased person can consider reasonable.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddha taught the hells. They are present even in the earliest Buddhist sutras.





coldmountain said:
...What about buying blessings by donating to the temple? Is that a good use of the doctrine of karma? What about the ethical implications of karma when taken too literally - it completely drains any concern for social justice. Why help the poor, the sick and abused when that's their karma? What about the outmoded cosmologies which can only be accepted as symbolic today? What about the exclusion of women from monastic practice in traditional Buddhism? Are these too to be accepted as justified beliefs and expressions of enlightened wisdom, much less actually desirable to believe? What a way to burden masses of people based on very slim evidence, based on interpretations of the private experiences of just a select few.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, what about these things? You have to discern what is culture and what is dharma for yourself. But when you do, make sure you are not excluding what the Buddha actually taught.

Cognition is not located in the brain.

At a certain point, these questions are useless. They are not helping you.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 6:54 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:


Pero said:
This is something I haven't quite understood. Is it that upon completion of a major deity retreat one can give lungs of any kind? Or is it just of that deity?


Malcolm wrote:
Lungs of any kind that you have received.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 9:33 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
Fa Dao said:
common misconception....
"if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!!" is not meant to be taken literally...it simply means that you will only find the Buddha within...if you see a Buddha in your mind, cut the delusion down...the Buddha is within


Malcolm wrote:
It's actually a reference to the Angulimala story.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 9:29 AM
Title: Re: Is there a Soul in Buddhism?
Content:


caveman said:
Stripping everything from Buddhism and Hinduism you have the transmigration of the soul, PERIOD.

Namdrol said:
There is no soul, person, atman, sattva, jiva, you name it -- it does not exist.

catmoon said:
Unless of course you read a lot of Bob Thurman. He uses the term "soul" quite freely.


Malcolm wrote:
He is a popularizer, and he ought to know better.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 9:16 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
adinatha said:
Believe it or not, in the Drikung Kagyu tradition, there is pointing out  and the "ngondro" come after as a way to fully recognize it, particularly guru yoga, vajrasattva and mandala. Here the practice is to be in the state of mahamudra while you do these practices and one's mind becomes much more vivid and relaxed. Namkai Norbu also says that doing a practice like vajrasattva can increase clarity after a pointing out or direct intro.


Malcolm wrote:
Any practice one does can increase clarity after receiving transmission.

The question however was why our teacher in the Dzogchen Community does not approach ngondro the way it is done in other dharma communities. So when we do Vajrasattva practice, for example, or the Longsal preliminary practice which is connected with Vajrasattva and the purification of the six lokas there is never any idea that we have to accumulate a certain number or do it for a certain length of time.  Same thing applies to deity yoga -- there is never any suggestion that it is important to do one hundred thousand per syllable of a given mantra, for example. What it is important is connecting with one's primordial state. If there is a yidam in Dzogchen Community, it is that. So therefore, reciting a certain number of mantras to finish a deity retreat as in Tantric practice is not the principle in our community because our teacher approaches the teachings differently than do other teachers.

There are certain exceptions to this related to SMS training. But SMS is an option, not a requirement. SMS was originally designed as a teacher training program. According to Rinpoche, to be able to give lungs, one must complete a major deity retreat in a proper way, very precisely. So in SMS there is a very modified tantric ngondro, as well as a three roots requirement.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 9:01 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
So yes, the total field of emptiness has both ignorance and buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
You did not answer the question:

Either you are not a Buddha because you made a mistake, or Buddhas make mistakes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 7:54 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen with or without ngondro?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I have always been curious as to why some masters require ngondro prior to Dzogchen teachings/pointing out and others do not. One of my old masters from many years ago required it, Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche. During that time though after reading Master Namkhai Norbu's books it appeared that he did not require it. (Loved his books by the way)


Malcolm wrote:
Norbu Rinpoche emphasizes Dzogchen ngondro i.e. seven mind trainings, rushan, sems dzins, etc.  not tantric preliminaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 7:46 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
That's the six million dollar question. In other words, there is no such account. The reason we do not utilize this talent is because we are mistaking the illusion for fact. It is only a misdiscrimination. A mistaken distinction does not exist. So it can't cease or be purified. This is crucial. We can say, "I no longer make this distinction, so I purified this thought," but that is just saying something without referring to anything. So it's not meaningless. We do understand a horn on a hare, but it is referenceless. Then a nonreferencing mind is the Buddha in the decaying lotus, the true meaningfulness.

Malcolm wrote:
You still have not resolved the issue. How can Buddhas mistake illusions for facts?

Either you are not a Buddha because you made a mistake, or Buddhas make mistakes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 6:57 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
I'm asserting the decaying lotus constitutes a mistake of fact, and the Buddha inside is the fact. The lotus represents impermanence, an illusoriness. The Buddha inside represents our true condition of the inseparable three kayas.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you must give an account for some reason why we are not all omniscient already. If our true condition is the resultant three kāyas, it makes no sense that we are deluded and buddhas at one and the same time. There are a number of unfavorable consequences that will ensue.

Unless of course you mean something else by "three kāyas".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 5:55 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Not so, otherwise you get distortion.

Namdrol said:
This is not the case -- when you take something intentional at face value, then you create distortions.

adinatha said:
You keep using this word "intentional," what do you mean by this?

I'm saying these examples are necessary to understanding the Ati and Mahamudra meaning of dharmakaya as the totality of "appearances and possibilities." The totality of all appearances and possibilities has two purposes, the picture of total completion subsuming the three times, and the inner practice of nonattachment and effortlessness. These two go together, and the examples open up these meanings on many many levels. These examples are extremely profound and should be contemplated often.

Malcolm wrote:
Intentional means "says one thing, means another". It is different than provisional and not definitive.

If you are asserting that the husk or decaying lotus is an appearance, for example, and the Buddha inside it is a possibility, then you are asserting that the examples may not be taken literally, and that they merely point to a possibility for a sentient being to awaken despite his/her appearance of suffering.

Kagyus tend to very enthusiastic about Uttaratantra since for them it is a very important text. Your mileage will vary in the other three schools.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: Throw Out Buddhist Philosophy / Phenomenology / Psychology
Content:
adinatha said:
Logic is errant.


Malcolm wrote:
According to Jigten Sumgon, logic leads to Buddhahood. I don't agree -- but his views about Buddhist logic informed the Gelugpa enthusiasm for logic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
Not so, otherwise you get distortion.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the case -- when you take something intentional at face value, then you create distortions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
In the example from the Tathagatagharba Sutra of the fully formed buddha inside the decaying lotus, the decaying lotus doesn't cause the Buddha. Wind blowing clouds doesn't cause a sun. The aspiration and effort doesn't create a Buddha. That's what these examples from the third turning mean. The thinking, "well, they cause them to appear to me," is a misunderstanding of causality. One thing following another is not one thing causing another. This is not me reading something into these Sutras that isn't there. It is the case of not misunderstanding the examples and not being a literalist. Longchenpa's explanations of spontaneous presence of appearances and possibilities is completely explained in the third turning sutras with examples like the Indra's reflection in all realms, and the like. We are talking about our true and complete condition in every moment.


Namdrol said:
if you take these examples literally, you will go down a wrong path.

adinatha said:
These examples are to be understood in the context of the path. And on the vajrayana path, they are made very clear.

Malcolm wrote:
Even in terms of Vajrayāna, if you take these examples literally, you will go down a wrong path. The examples have an intentional meaning. They are not meant to taken at face value.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
In the example from the Tathagatagharba Sutra of the fully formed buddha inside the decaying lotus, the decaying lotus doesn't cause the Buddha. Wind blowing clouds doesn't cause a sun. The aspiration and effort doesn't create a Buddha. That's what these examples from the third turning mean. The thinking, "well, they cause them to appear to me," is a misunderstanding of causality. One thing following another is not one thing causing another. This is not me reading something into these Sutras that isn't there. It is the case of not misunderstanding the examples and not being a literalist. Longchenpa's explanations of spontaneous presence of appearances and possibilities is completely explained in the third turning sutras with examples like the Indra's reflection in all realms, and the like. We are talking about our true and complete condition in every moment.


Malcolm wrote:
if you take these examples literally, you will go down a wrong path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
There's a funny story that I'll tell here to illustrate the importance of keeping an open mind and having a solid theoretical background even before starting to practice meditation.

I met this guy from Argentina, deep into the psychedelic scene, who was absolutely convinced he had gained enlightenment while listening to trance music under the influence of psychedelic substances. His conception of enlightenment was quite simple and had more to do with getting euphoric and dazed, thus not suffering, than anything else.

Now, he was completely convinced he was enlightened. Unmovable about it. It was impossible to argue with him since he thought he had "The Experience". I think he was just tripping.

This is a clear example of how delusion makes us go AWOL and why we shouldn't trust the blind to lead the blind. Materialist scientists, concerning the nature of consciousness, are no different than this guy. Just a different sort of blindness, that's all. They speculate that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. I think they are just tripping.

Malcolm wrote:
The truth is that mind and matter are emergent properties of one another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


coldmountain said:
And yet when the spinal cord is severed we lose experience of the body - but the mind still works. It is only when the brain is damaged that the mind follows suite (or vice-versa). You can literally poke the brain to alter and generate different experiences.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and in Tibetan medicine, for example, we recognize that brain is the conduit for sense organ cognition and have for a thousand years.

coldmountain said:
This is strongly suggestive of identity between mind and brain, not only to a physicalist but to anyone who looks at that fact objectively.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it suggests that self-perception is dependent upon sense organ cognition and when those are disrupted at the brain or nerve level, the mind is disrupted since it functions in the brain as well as the rest of the body provide it has a conduit. There are more ways than one to skin this cat.



coldmountain said:
At this point I do not see any form of dualism very convincing.

Malcolm wrote:
Me either. Matter and mind form an experiential continuum. Nāma and rūpa are inseparable.


coldmountain said:
If reality itself is experiential (which it seems to be); then the brain might be considered a very complicated experiential structure.

Malcolm wrote:
A human brain coordinates human sense experience. But experience is not reducible to the brain. The psycho-somactice continuum is more complicated than that.

coldmountain said:
When you're talking about other realms, don't they have structure? If not, then in what sense can they exist; if so, then why aren't they objectively verifiable as such? Is structure itself a private reality?

Malcolm wrote:
Have you heard of the principle of cognitive closure?


coldmountain said:
Yet rebirth seems to play no role in actual, publically verifiable biological science. Evolution is based on the simpler evolving into the more complex, with humans representing the most complicated we know of. There are more humans now then there have ever been. It seems that human life operates according statistical and biological means and rebirth and karma have no observable role to play in that. For instance, think about how there are billions of more humans on earth now then there were in the Buddha’s time. Is that because of good karma that beings have accumulated? If so, why does it happen to coincide with purely statistical/biological reasons relating to reproduction rates/population growth?

Malcolm wrote:
False objection. Human beings do not always take rebirth as human beings. Not only that, beings do not only take rebirth on this planet. There is no evolutionary drive in rebirth that necessitates evolving from a lower state to a higher state.

It is not necessarily "good karma" just to be reborn a human being.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
Namdrol said:
That being said, I have some unclear recollections of past lives. Those experiences where stronger during the time I spent in Central Tibet.

Huseng said:
Were you as a child attracted to Tibetan or perhaps Indian culture, languages, arts, etc...?


Malcolm wrote:
Nope. But i was into science fiction and fantasy. Around 13 I became aware of Eastern Religion and at 16 had my first real exposure to it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2011 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


coldmountain said:
I do try to avoid ethnocentricism, but it is also important not to underestimate the force (and virtues) of scientific understanding. Whereas karma adds nothing to explaining earthquakes and sexual reproduction, it is Western knowledge that has explained them with demonstrable, verifiable, public means. If I dismissed that achievement I might be ethnocentric, so its important to walk a middle way, I think.

Malcolm wrote:
Karma is not meant to explain earthquakes or sexual reproduction.

Science is fine for explaining outer dependent origination. Even though there are limits to how well it explains outer dependent origination.

But science does not explain inner dependent origination and that is the domain of Dharma.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Ordination
Content:
Caz said:
So you move on and learn, I know some saw E-sangha as Iron fist policies and Buddhism.


Malcolm wrote:
The interesting thing was all the bizarre fantasies and projections that some people engaged in about our motivations for doing this or that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
Lazy_eye said:
Loppon,

Just for clarification, what you explained above is a distinctively Vajrayana perspective, right?  Is anything similar found in (sutric) Mahayana or Theravada?

My studies, such as they are, have mostly been in Ch'an and Theravada and I don't recall encountering a similar schema. In Theravada, as I understand it, consciousness re-arises along with the material aggregates -- there's no point at which it can  be said to be separated from them, unless one is reborn into a "formless realm". Even those Theravada teachers who accept an intermediary or bardo-like state insist it involves some sort of subtle body.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that subtle body is constituted from vāyu. In the bardo, one has all five aggregates -- one's rupaskandha is made of vāyu which also has the potentiality of the other four elements.

Sūtra does not provide an adequate account of the mechanism of rebirth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
coldmountain said:
Perhaps I still haven't gotten far enough from physicalism.

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


coldmountain said:
I noted the complexity of the brain also for another reason: it challenges any naive realism. Someone who isn't aware of how complex the brain is might uncritically believe that some experience or some memory belongs to a past life or whatever. There's also the fact that all of our experiences seem to have neural correlates...

Malcolm wrote:
If course, mind and body are inseparable.

coldmountain said:
...which strongly suggests mutual identity between mind and brain.

Malcolm wrote:
Only to a physicalist. To a Tibetan Doctor is suggests that mind inhabits the brain as well as the rest of nervous system and has no fixed location within the body, moving about the body wherever there is a pathway.



coldmountain said:
As for rebirth, there are many questions as to how the process could actually take place. What is it that transfers from one life to the next?

Malcolm wrote:
The Vajrayāna answer for that is that the mind is inseparably wed to a function of matter called vāyu, wind. The alāyavijñāna, bound to the mahāprāṇavāyu tranfers through the bardo from one body to the next. That wind/mind is also impermanent in the sense that it is momentary.

coldmountain said:
How does one's mind transfers, when the brain undeniably has a lot to do with what is experienced in the mind?

Malcolm wrote:
As above it leaves the body mounted in a vāyu.

coldmountain said:
What testable evidence is there that there is such a transfer (you would expect information to pass from one life to the next, and information is measurable).

Malcolm wrote:
Impressions scored on the alāyavij̃nāna is the standard mechanism to account for karmic ripening. Memory is considered a form of karmic ripening since it is a mental sensation.

coldmountain said:
The questions seem to stack up with little explanatory power within the theory itself. How do moral choices (karma) impact which life one is reborn into?

Malcolm wrote:
They affect one's overall aesthetic inclinations in the bardo determining the place of one's next rebirth.

coldmountain said:
Is it limited to a choice of beings on earth?

Malcolm wrote:
No. The options for rebirth in the universe are infinite.

coldmountain said:
If so, how does the mechanism responsible for rebirth choose which life one is born into on earth? All life on earth is readily explained in evolutionary biological terms and does not need any such superfluity to explain how things work.

Malcolm wrote:
Rebirth and evolution are non-contradictory.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 8:20 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
coldmountain said:
My only question in response to this is, is this something you have verified in personal experience or is all this itself an expression of a belief?

Malcolm wrote:
To preface, everything involving one's mind is involves belief. The idea that one has "personal experience" of anything is a belief system. Mental experience is always a meditated second-order cognition. Sense cognitions are non-conceptual.

That being said, I have some unclear recollections of past lives. Those experiences where stronger during the time I spent in Central Tibet.

I am certain that given sufficient time, and opportunity I could enhance those memories. But having memories of past lives is not the point of Dharma practice. But if you do sufficient practice, then you will verify the existence of dhyana realm devas too, and so on, as have many people who have spent time cultivating the jhanas in the Vipassana system. This is because cultivating dhyana affects one's sense organs and puts their experiential sphere in the form realms even though someone is physically located in the desire realm. I have a little of this experience as well. However, nothing that will stand up to so called "empirical" double blind studies. Recall of past lives cannot be scientifically tested for because it depends on developing certain meditative skills. But enough people have developed those skills and confirmed similar phenomena over the course of Buddhist history.

Of course, skeptics will dismiss such findings as narrative driven.

But beyond that, you have to recall that Buddha's insight into dependent origination was predicated on his recollection of his own past lives. This is an unalterable fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 1:52 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
LastLegend said:
Namdrol what you are saying is the Chinese got the Sutra first, then it got translated into Tibetan from the Sutra.

My claim is they came from the same original source, and whether the source is still with the translation as you said is not the case for one of it. If you implied that the one without the original is the fake one, then we can make comparison in meanings to see if they are basically saying the same thing.

For Huseng, if you have two different versions in the two different languages and if these people don't get it from each other, my claim is they have to come from the same source. Namdrol said that is not the case as the Chinese got it first, then got translated into Tibetan if I understand what he said correctly...now whether the original is still with us today is not what I am saying.

Malcolm wrote:
One was written in India, one was written in CHina.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 9:52 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


Chaz said:
Must a person actually believe in Rebirth and Karma to be a Buddhist?


Namdrol said:
Yup. It's called "taking refuge in the Dharma".

N

coldmountain said:
Well, if that's the case (and I wouldn't say it is), then it doesn't look too good for Buddhism, since according to this understanding it has hinged itself upon a totally unverifiable belief, in which case the entire dharma is reduced to one giant appeal to authority. This seems to be one of the things that the Buddha himself rejected from vedantic religion: unverifiable claims to revelation. If you already have to be a Buddha before you can get any kind of verification of a claim, then I can't see what good it does anybody.



Peace,
Mike


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Mike:

Past lives are verifiable. You just have to meditate a lot. Just as the Buddha did. You don't have to be a Buddha to verify rebirth. You just have remember your past lives very well, as the Buddha did prior to his awakening. Recall of past lives is a mundane skill accruing from meditation. It does not require attainment of awakening. It does require some degree of attainment of meditative stabilization.

Dharma is not solely based on appeals to authority. The Buddha suggested that anyone can develop these powers of the mind -- such as recall of one's past lives and so on -- such teachings are too pervasive in Buddhist literature to be doubted that this is really what the Buddha intended i.e. that the Dharma was taught in order to free people from continual rebirth in samsara.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 9:47 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


LastLegend said:
Where else could it come from if not Sanskrit edition? I know the Chinese has a version of Shurangama Sutra in Chinese and Tibetan got one in Tibetan.


Malcolm wrote:
There are two Shurangama sutras in Chinese, only one of these two is in Tibetan and that one has a Sanskrit Manuscript, one does not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 8:19 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


Chaz said:
Must a person actually believe in Rebirth and Karma to be a Buddhist?


Malcolm wrote:
Yup. It's called "taking refuge in the Dharma".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 7:36 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Huseng said:
The text itself strikes me as being an indigenous product of domesticated Buddhism rather than being a translation. Some sources during the Tang Dynasty say it was a translation and that an original Sanskrit edition actually existed, but scholars doubt the validity of such claims given the Sino-Buddhist content of the text. I also look at the Chinese text itself and sense it isn't a translation given the way it is written. One scholar Dr. Ishii Kosei has suggested the text is a hybrid containing both translated sections from an original Sanskrit text and indigenous Chinese additions.

In any case, I don't think said text espouses eternalist doctrines.

LastLegend said:
Take Shurangama Sutra for example, it was also translated to Tibetan. So the Sanskrit edition of this text really existed.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two: one was translated into Tibetan, one was not.

This however is not a certain test of whether a text has a Sanskrit original. The Vajrasamadhi sutra was also translated into Tibetan. However, it was composed in Korea.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: Ordination
Content:
Andreas Ludwig said:
but it didn't work in the end.
The policies and standards didn't work?.


Malcolm wrote:
They created, unintentionally, many enemies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: dumb question
Content:


kirtu said:
So perhaps we will just disolve rupakaya forms with only the Dharmakaya left.  Last person to leave the Pure Lands - please turn off the lights!

Kirt

dakini_boi said:
But this is where logic was breaking down for me. . . my understanding is that there can be no dharmakaya without rupakaya. . . i.e. the kayas are inseparable.

kirtu said:
The kayas are inseparable - the rupakaya emanates in order to teach, there is no other reason.  If everyone attained perfect and completely enlightenment then the rupakayas would no longer have a reason for existing since there would be no more unenlightened beings.  So the rupakayas should disolve.

The kayas are inseparable but the the rupakayas manifest as needed to tame beings.  So I would argue that there can be a Dharmakaya without rupakaya in the case that every mind is really perfectly enlightened.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen resolves this perfectly -- at the time of the basis, all kāyas are the dharmakāya; at the time of the path, all kāyas are the sambhogakāya; at the time of the result, all kāyas are the rūpakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Swelling
Content:
Nangwa said:
Hi Namdrol and anyone else who is interested in what our resident doctor has to say about it.
I recently had a couple of operations to repair my knee. The meniscus was badly torn and my ACL had to be completely replaced.
The most recent operation was about a month ago and recovery is going well. I am about to start physical therapy and there is one area that I was hoping to get some advice on.
The knee is still quite swollen, this is totally normal but the healing/physical therapy process will go smoother and faster if I can diminish the swelling.
What are my options from a the TM point of view? Suggestions for both external and dietary remedies would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
nangwa


Malcolm wrote:
Moxa will reduce the swelling immediately -- provided it is not an inflamation/infection. Otherwise try cold compresses. Way to find out is apply hot, see it is more comfortable. If not, then apply cold. Or reverse. whichever your instinct sends you. Then, apply corresponding diet and behavior.

if it is red an angry looking, it is probably hot. If not, cold.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2011 at 12:02 AM
Title: Tibetan Rap group Green (Turquoise) Dragon
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Smoking tobacco
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

Yes like Namdrol wrote, we will get a hard time with the import of herbs / precious pills / TCM patent pills here in the Netherlands c.q. Europe.
Further can these TCM pills be stored for about 3 - 5 years. 
I import my medicine normally out of China ( patent pills) and can help my patients very good with these herbal pills.
But what to do at the moment, in case of a prohibition, i have no idea. 
Maybe one of you has some smart suggestions? That would be welcome

Then in case that a smoke like weed/pot could be a medicine then it could be used. I guess that to smooke it is permitted, but if it would then be a medical subject, so that it would be allowed in TCM and TTM, i don't know.

Best wishes for our practice
KY

Malcolm wrote:
It is difficult. Going underground may be the only way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Namdrol said:
pretty hard to tell that from the extant english translations, both Suzuki's and Hakeda's.

Plus, in some Shingon Literature in English, Mahāvairocana is definitely given a theistic slant lacking in Tibetan or Indian sources.

Huseng said:
Interestingly I recall seeing Hakeda's Kukai: Major Works classified under the category of "Pantheism".

I think the problem is that in Hakeda's time he was writing for a community of predominately Christian scholars and had to make use of the standard religious studies lexicon of the time. Other authors who wrote on Buddhism used words like "the Church" when referring to Buddhist institutions. Using words from Christian theology only compounded misunderstandings and the presentation of Buddhism in the west.

Malcolm wrote:
Many people these days in Zen understand terms like "One Mind" exactly in the same sense as Advaita. Which is why we see cross-over teachers like Adyashanti and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Huseng said:
The text itself strikes me as being an indigenous product of domesticated Buddhism rather than being a translation.

Malcolm wrote:
I was referring to Suzuki's text. And yes, I agree it is a Chinese text. Not indian. Post Paramartha.

Huseng said:
In any case, I don't think said text espouses eternalist doctrines.

Malcolm wrote:
pretty hard to tell that from the extant english translations, both Suzuki's and Hakeda's.

Plus, in some Shingon Literature in English, Mahāvairocana is definitely given a theistic slant lacking in Tibetan or Indian sources.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Smoking tobacco
Content:
samdrup said:
Good afternoon Namdrol,

I posted this yesterday, but think it got lost in the thread, would be interested and appreciative of your advice and opinion.
"Thanks again N,

What's your opinion of the Men Tsee Khang precious pills? Can you recommend any other authentic source? Dr Dhonden did warn me against inferior sources. Especially from some of the little clinics around Dharamsala.

About 12 years ago I actually had some that were made by Khenpo Troru Tsenam, but they are long used.

Thanks,

s."

Malcolm wrote:
Precious pills last for centuries, properly made

They should be fine. I know the both the former head pharmacist of Mentsee khang and one of their senior doctors.

There are better ones made in Tibetan by the Jiumai (jigmed) company in Xining, but they will be hard to get now in EU.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It may be the case that a certain eternalism creeps in at the hands of translators like Suzuki, nevertheless many people read these translations without knowing original language and take them at face value.

Bad translations die hard too.

N


Namdrol said:
As I said, "as translated" --


"all dharmas entirely all true/real thus"

This is definitely off. Not Buddhist.

Huseng said:
"all dharmas entirely all true/real thus"

That last character reading as "true/real" (zhen 真) might be an abbreviation for zhenru 真如 which is suchness. Given that the sentence pattern here is made up of four-character segments this is probably the case. In Literary Chinese they have a habit of maintaining four-character segments and will abbreviate binomials to make them fit into the sequence. It leads to a lot of confusion as one might imagine.

So it would probably be best read as:

"all dharmas entirely all suchness thus"

Looking at the Chinese a bit closer I'm sure that the zhen 真 here is an abbreviation for zhenru 真如 because in the following sentence you get the other half of the binomial appearing (ru 如).

This section of the text is saying that all dharmas are suchness, therefore they need not be rejected or affirmed (pointed to). They conventionally exist and their conventional existence need not be rejected or affirmed when the principle is understood.

Do you see anything wrong with saying that all dharmas are entirely suchness?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As I said, "as translated" --


"all dharmas entirely all true/real thus"

This is definitely off. Not Buddhist.



Namdrol said:
"therefore all things from the beginning transcend all forms of verbalization, description, and conceptualization and are, in the final analysis, undifferentiated, free from alteration, and indestructible. They are only of the One Mind; hence the name Suchness."

As translated, very similar to Advaita.

Huseng said:
I'm looking at the Chinese and that last sentence has an additional part.

《大乘起信論》卷1：「唯是一心故名真如，以一切言說假名無實，但隨妄念不可得故。」(CBETA, T32, no. 1666, p. 576, a12-14)

"They are only just one mind ergo the name suchness because all language and provisional appellations have no reality only accompanying delusional thoughts which are unattainable. "

The "they" at the beginning is referring to "all dharmas" (一切法). "Transcend" is also not a good translation for li 離 which just means "apart from".

This is really just a Cittamatra position. Such remarks are made in the context of epistemology and not ontology. Mind here is equated to suchness. Is that really eternalist?

"But the essence of Suchness itself cannot be put an end to, for all things in their Absolute aspect are real; nor is there anything which needs to be pointed out as real, for all things are equally in the state of Suchness. It should be understood that all things are incapable of being verbally explained or thought of; hence the name Suchness."

As translated, this is a form of realism very similar to Kashmiri Shaivism.
《大乘起信論》卷1：「此真如體無有可遣，以一切法悉皆真故；亦無可立，以一切法皆同如故。當知一切法不可說、不可念故，名為真如。」(CBETA, T32, no. 1666, p. 576, a14-18)
[3]極＝相【金】。

Unfortunately you are relying on a bad translation.

This line ...
for all things in their Absolute aspect are real
...is an interpretation rather than a translation.

If you look at the Chinese and literally translate it word for word it sounds like this:

以一切法悉皆真故
[instrumental particle] all dharmas entirely all true/real thus

I don't see where the translator got "Absolute aspect" from. This section of the text is talking about how conventional phenomena and the principle behind them complement each other.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Huseng said:
And what part of said text has eternalist elements creeping in?

Malcolm wrote:
"therefore all things from the beginning transcend all forms of verbalization, description, and conceptualization and are, in the final analysis, undifferentiated, free from alteration, and indestructible. They are only of the One Mind; hence the name Suchness."

As translated, very similar to Advaita.

"But the essence of Suchness itself cannot be put an end to, for all things in their Absolute aspect are real; nor is there anything which needs to be pointed out as real, for all things are equally in the state of Suchness. It should be understood that all things are incapable of being verbally explained or thought of; hence the name Suchness."

As translated, this is a form of realism very similar to Kashmiri Shaivism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Namdrol said:
In Chinese Buddhism it is interpreted more literally, in texts such as Awakening of Faith in Mahāyāna, and in some currents of Sino-Japanese Buddhism it is indistinguishable from Advaita. The Chinese had no experience with Hindus, really, and did not guard as well as the Tibetans against eternalism creeping into their Buddhism.

Huseng said:
Precisely what did you have in mind concerning eternalism creeping into Chinese Buddhism?


Malcolm wrote:
Well, we can start with Awakening of Faith in Mahayāna and it just gets worse from there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 7:49 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


coldmountain said:
To what does the term refer to, then? I'm not clear how a belief in an unconditioned, immutable anything fits with the teaching of conditioned-arising.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on who you ask. In Tibetan Buddhism, according to the Sakya school, tathāgatagarbha is the union of the clarity and emptiness of one's mind. According to the Gelugpa school, it is the potential for sentient beings to awaken since they lack inherent existence; according to the Jonang school, it refers to the innate qualities of the mind which expresses itself in terms of omniscience, etc, when adventitious obscurations are removed. In Nyingma, tathāgatagarbha also generally refers to union of the clarity and emptiness of one's mind.

There is only one Indian commentary on this issue -- the Uttaratantra and its commentary by Asanga.

In Chinese Buddhism it is interpreted more literally, in texts such as Awakening of Faith in Mahāyāna, and in some currents of Sino-Japanese Buddhism it is indistinguishable from Advaita. The Chinese had no experience with Hindus, really, and did not guard as well as the Tibetans against eternalism creeping into their Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 7:28 AM
Title: Re: Smoking tobacco
Content:
Namdrol said:
it's a joke adapted from the stoner movie "Dude, Where's My Car?".

kirtu said:
No,  I mean why do the sadhus smoke marijuana or whatever they smoke?

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
because they think Siva was a stoner too. It is their creation stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 7:24 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
coldmountain said:
Thanks for your response.

Astus said:
The difference in brief. Those who believe there is an actor behind action think there is a self/soul. Those who realise that the mind is empty, without a self, understand that it is buddha-nature.

coldmountain said:
What, then, is Buddha-nature? Is it an unconditioned substance? Does it exist independently of change and plurality?


Malcolm wrote:
Nope, not an unconditioned _substance_.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Astus said:
The difference in brief. Those who believe there is an actor behind action think there is a self/soul. Those who realise that the mind is empty, without a self, understand that it is buddha-nature.


Malcolm wrote:
Paradoxically, in Tathāgatagarbha literature, that mind that lacks identity and is empty is being called "self". It is standard Buddhist subversion of Hindu norms, once again. The Tantras do it with Samkhya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: Smoking tobacco
Content:
Huseng said:
What do you think of those sadhus in India who smoke weed?

Namdrol said:
"Dude, where's my chillum..."

kirtu said:
What is that all about?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
it's a joke adapted from the stoner movie "Dude, Where's My Car?".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Hashang went on to Dunhuang where he had a successful teaching career and wrote an alternate account of the debate. Also Nubchen Sangye Yeshe and the Padma Khatang report the opposite, namely that Hashang won and was expelled because of politics.

kirtu said:
Namkhai Nyingpo was supposed to have also been a Chan pratitioner.  So how was it that Chan died out in Tibet shortly after the Samye debate?  Or did it?  How long did it take for whatever version of Chan in Tibet to actually die out?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
It probably continued for another 40 years among Tibetans after the so called debate. Then Langdarma defunded all the monasteries primarily, in my estimation, due to the economic crisis due to political instability in China.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Smoking tobacco
Content:
samdrup said:
Dear Namdrol,

I am aware of the view of tobacco, but what is the TM opinion of Marijuana? Both recreational and medical uses?

Namdrol said:
Herb does not have many medical uses in TM -- and it is very bad for meditation. Stoners can't meditate well since herb messes with short term memory. If one is a stoner, and thinks one can practice, one is suffering from delusion.

Also, what exactly is in Ayurvedic cigarette?
Herbs which are quite good for the lungs.

http://www.madanapalas.com/nirdosh-herbal-cigarettes-10-packets-100-herbal-cigarettes-p-9.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Smoking healing herbs has an ancient tradition in Ayurveda, it is mentioned in the Caraka Samhita.

When you see people smoking in Mad Men they are smoking some kind of herbal cigarettes.


N

maestro said:
Don't mean to get off topic here but I've been having this on again off again cough for quite some time now. Would you recommend these?

Malcolm wrote:
You an try them, see how they work out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Smoking tobacco
Content:
samdrup said:
Thanks N, very interesting.

On a side note, do you mind if I ask you a question please?

Dr Dhonden and Akong Rinpoche advised me to take Rinchen Ratna Samphel pills, along with my other medicines, about once or twice per month. So I got a large stock from Men Tsee Khang in Dharamsala. I take these as advised and prescribed. My question is: How long can I keep these pills? Do they have a shelf life?

Thanks for your time.

s.


Malcolm wrote:
Precious pills last for centuries, properly made


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Smoking tobacco
Content:
samdrup said:
Dear Namdrol,

I am aware of the view of tobacco, but what is the TM opinion of Marijuana? Both recreational and medical uses?

Malcolm wrote:
Herb does not have many medical uses in TM -- and it is very bad for meditation. Stoners can't meditate well since herb messes with short term memory. If one is a stoner, and thinks one can practice, one is suffering from delusion.


samdrup said:
Also, what exactly is in Ayurvedic cigarette?

Malcolm wrote:
Herbs which are quite good for the lungs.

http://www.madanapalas.com/nirdosh-herbal-cigarettes-10-packets-100-herbal-cigarettes-p-9.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Smoking healing herbs has an ancient tradition in Ayurveda, it is mentioned in the Caraka Samhita.

When you see people smoking in Mad Men they are smoking some kind of herbal cigarettes.


N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Namdrol said:
And even better, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu really is an awakened master.

rai said:
Dear Namdrol,

I remember you wrote on E-sangha that although in general you are sceptical about tulku system you think that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche really is a tulku of Adzom Drukpa. I never had a chance to ask what make you think so. Could you please write something more?

Rai


Malcolm wrote:
Oh, it is simple. Norbu RInpoche wrote a long commentary when he was younger. Later on, when he had a chance to obtain all of Adzom Drugpa's collected works, he chanced to find a text in Adzom's collected works that was for over a hundred pages identical in topic, outline and structure. Apart from minor differences in in grammar, the words are the same.

Based on that, Norbu Rinpoche himself decided that it must be true that he is the reincarnation of Adzom Drugpa.

Adzom Drugpa was the most important Dzogchen Guru of the early twentieth century for many reasons, not least of which he was the main Dzogchen disciple of Khyentse Wangpo. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is the most important Dzogchen master alive today. Of course, there are many Dzogchen masters, and to their own students, they are the most important. But in terms of service in spreading Unsurpassed Secret Treasury of Mahasaṃdhi teachings, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is in truth the Second Vajrasattva.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Lust or compassion? How do we know?
Content:


Namdrol said:
And even better, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu really is an awakened master.

Nangwa said:
No doubt.
I want to be just like him when I grow up.


Malcolm wrote:
I guess this is a little off topic.

We need a thread, fanboys for ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Lust or compassion? How do we know?
Content:
Namdrol said:
And even better, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu really is an awakened master.

Clarence said:
What about his son? Have you ever met him?


Malcolm wrote:
I have met Yeshe, but I have no idea about him. Of course, he is a nice person, and supports his father's work with his whole heart.

People who consider themselves his students feel very enthusiastic about him.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
We had one of those in e-sangha, but it turned out a bad idea. Instead of becoming a good space for debate, it was used mostly by people who wanted to proselytize others.

Regarding what you said, here's an article you might find interesting:

" Is Buddhism Really Nontheistic?" here: http://www.alanwallace.org/Is%20Buddhism%20Really%20Nontheistic_.pdf " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Malcolm wrote:
"However, a careful analysis of Vajray›na Buddhist cosmogony, specifically as presented in the Atiyoga tradition of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, which presents itself as the culmination of all Buddhist teachings, reveals a theory of a transcendent ground of being and a process of creation that bear remarkable similarities with views presentedinVed›ntaandNeoplatonicWesternChristiantheoriesofcreation."

This is complete nonsense on Wallace's part.

There is no such a thing as a transcendent ground of being in Dzogchen. The cosmology of Dzogchen is almost exactly like that of Abhidharma with slight differences.

He has obviously never read Garab Dorje's commentary on the Sras gcig bu rgyud in the Vima snyin thig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2011 at 12:43 AM
Title: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Dechen said:
What next?

Namdrol said:
Dzogchen Community.

http://www.dzogchen.org.au/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nangwa said:
I second this recommendation.
The Dzogchen Community offers something structured and international that is very comfortable, highly accessible, and full of extraordinary practice and study opportunities.
My experience with them has been really wonderful.


Malcolm wrote:
And even better, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu really is an awakened master.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: Smoking tobacco
Content:
rai said:
Hi all,

What is Tibetan Buddhism approach towards smoking tobacco. Please write whatever you've heard or read. I am struggling with casual smoking and need some good motivation to give up completely. I've read HH Dudjom Rinpoche' teachings on smoking tobacco but 1) I saw it on Aro website and i am not sure is it authentic or not and 2) the description of the plant are more like  a Opium not tobacco, maybe someone read it in Tibetan and could confirm.

Thanks,

Rai


Namdrol said:
Smoking is stupid, bad for your health, bad for your practice. If you want to smoke, smoke Ayurvedic cigarettes.

Huseng said:
What do you think of those sadhus in India who smoke weed?

Malcolm wrote:
"Dude, where's my chillum..."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
Namdrol said:
I prefer the hermeneutics of Guhyasamaja i.e. "The single vajra word was heard differently by those of differing capacities."

gregkavarnos said:
I ilke that one.  Unfortunately one can then start value judgements on the higher and lower of the differing capacities.  Well, that's samsara for you!


Malcolm wrote:
It just means that people hear the dharma they want to hear, and they block out the dharma they do not want to hear or cannot hear.

For me it means that the three turnings of the wheel are not effective hermeneutical criteria. Anyway, Maitreyanath points out in the Mahayanasutraalamkara that the three turnings all occur at the same time. They are not spread out over the teaching career of the Buddha as a kind of sequence of teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: Smoking tobacco
Content:
rai said:
Hi all,

What is Tibetan Buddhism approach towards smoking tobacco. Please write whatever you've heard or read. I am struggling with casual smoking and need some good motivation to give up completely. I've read HH Dudjom Rinpoche' teachings on smoking tobacco but 1) I saw it on Aro website and i am not sure is it authentic or not and 2) the description of the plant are more like  a Opium not tobacco, maybe someone read it in Tibetan and could confirm.

Thanks,

Rai


Malcolm wrote:
Smoking is stupid, bad for your health, bad for your practice. If you want to smoke, smoke Ayurvedic cigarettes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: Ojas
Content:
rai said:
I read on some Ayurveda forum that the best way to restore ojas is to restrain from sex for some time or have a longer breaks between. Is that correct according to Tibetan Medicine? I believe there is substitute to ojas in TM?

Thank you


Namdrol said:
Yes, that is correct. Actually, there is more to it than that. Ojas is the final product of digesting food. So, for this reason one needs to periodically do cleanses, and engage in the practice of rasāyana".

Nangwa said:
Hey Namdrol,
What kinds of cleanses are prescribed by TM?
Are specific details on how to carry them out available?
thanks

Malcolm wrote:
I like the colorado cleanse.

It is every effective, has excellent herbs and can be adapted to many people's needs.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Ojas
Content:
rai said:
I've just read this on Lama Zopa website, about the sexual intercourse: "Besides this, it is one of the greatest disturbances and barriers to opening the chakras and to gaining control over the winds—it causes us lose the pure ability or power of the body and therefore the mind. Being situated in the body, the mind is therefore dependent on it. This is like pouring water into cloth that can’t retain it. From the Mahayana tantric yoga practice point of view sexual intercourse is the worst disturbance." http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=236&chid=381 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is it connected to loosing the Ojas when ejaculates? Any comment on it would be very appreciated.


Malcolm wrote:
This is the view of a monk. This is not a tantric view.

He is asserting that sex disturbs the winds in the body. It can, but only if too much.

No need to pay attention to this unless you are a student of Lama Zopa's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
It's true, as you say, that Western metaphysics influenced the development of science, but the latter has really taken off on its own wings and even devoured its parent, so to speak. It's radically different paradigm.
You must be living in a different world, then. Some parallel universe perhaps, where science isn't influenced by metaphysical predilections. By chance our dimensions must have connected in this board.
Science and scientific circles are deeply influenced by the metaphysics of ontological naturalism, which in turn is mistaken by being a fact instead of a metaphysical predilection.
Instead of going over it again, I recommend the following essay:
http://www.alanwallace.org/Introduction%20to%20Buddhism%20&%20Science.pdf " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My point is made in page 10, but perhaps reading it all could be informative.

Best wishes.


Malcolm wrote:
Personally, I find Wallace's thinking to reflect a sort of crypto-theism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: eczema
Content:
upasaka said:
What is an approach of tibetan medicine to eczema? Is there any?

Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course -- it depends on the cause but there are very effective medicinal baths, sometimes, it is pitta related, then bloodletting can be very effective.

Also ayurveda has very effective remedies for excema, there are specially formulated medicinal oils that work very well.

Also you need to think about your diet, behavior, etc. in this case, please consult an Ayurvedic or Tibetan doctor.

Whatever you do, do not start down the path of steroids.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
remm said:
Hi Namdrol,

Apparently he did commit suicide from the sources that I've read.


Malcolm wrote:
You have not read enough sources. Hashang went on to Dunhuang where he had a successful teaching career and wrote an alternate account of the debate. Also Nubchen Sangye Yeshe and the Padma Khatang report the opposite, namely that Hashang won and was expelled because of politics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 10:01 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Interest in EA Buddhism
Content:
Astus said:
"The attitudes of the Tibetan Lamas from the eleventh century until today toward Chan have been, by and large, exceedingly negative, except for certain Nyingmapas like Longchenpa and Urgyan Lingpa. The Tibetan Lamas are content with their Indian-derived traditions as representing the authentic corpus of the Buddha's teachings. They have had absolutely no interest in the post-eighth-century developments of Buddhism in China, including Chan, and have had little or no contact personally with the Chinese teachers of Chan and the Japanese teachers of Zen. ... This Olympian disinterest, if not disdain, for non-Tibetan manifestations of Buddhism clearly represents a feeling on the part of Tibetans of their cultural superiority more than anything else. "
(John Myrdhin Reynolds: The Golden Letters, p. 223)

remm said:
One thing I took into consideration was the Samye debate between Kamalaśīla and Héshang Móhēyǎn. The fact that Móhēyǎn lost and ultimately "suicided" showed how inferior the Northern Ch`an school was compared to the lineage of Indian Buddhism. I mean, this could be a major reason as to why Tibet seems to have disinterest in Buddhism in China.


Malcolm wrote:
it is not at all clear that Hashang "lost". He definitely did not commit suicide.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 9:59 AM
Title: Re: Is there a Soul in Buddhism?
Content:
adinatha said:
I know. I'm drawing attention to the minority of statements that turns the others upside down.

Malcolm wrote:
This merely points to the certain fact that these last paragraphs you cite are interpolations since they radically contradict the entire tone of sūtra up until that point. And the fact that there are passages subsequent to them that reverse their statements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 9:52 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:
adinatha said:
Like him, in a way which is effortless
and from this dharmakaya, which is without birth or death,
buddhas engage in activity, such as manifestation,
for as long as conditioned existence continues [forever].

-Uttaratantra
As long as there are sentient beings, buddhas will reflect in their minds. This does not mean a buddha is caused. The manifest appearance is interdependent, like a moon in water. Like Indra's reflection in all lower realms. But a Buddha does not have skandhas so cannot be caused.

Malcolm wrote:
Why not try presenting some citations about the rūpakāya?

Where did you get the idea that a nirmanakāya buddha does not have skandhas?

Anyway, I forgot to mention, I don't find the hermeneutics of the three turnings very convincing on any level, either doctrinally, since the third turning sutras often contradict each other, or historically.

I prefer the hermeneutics of Guhyasamaja i.e. "The single vajra word was heard differently by those of differing capacities."

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
I am just saying that your presentation is not consistent with Tathāgatagarbha sutra theory. It does not have to be.
The two aspects which Victors manifest
are like a moon in water.

-Uttaratantra

adinatha said:
Supports my presentation of Tathagatagarbha Sutras

Malcolm wrote:
You are missing the point -- the rūpakāya is clearly presented in UT as a result of efforts and aspiration. It is really not possible to cherry pick citations to refute this. Well you can try but you wont't be successful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 9:42 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


adinatha said:
The main point is Tathagatagarbha Sutras are definitive.

Malcolm wrote:
Only Dzogchen tantras are definitive AFIAC.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


adinatha said:
Okay self-intuited. Same point.

Namdrol said:
It is an important point.

adinatha said:
Words are nuanced with several overlapping meanings. Translator get stuck on definitions.


Malcolm wrote:
You have a philosophy degree, so you can appreciate that in technical language, a certain precision is required. And some terms are just not nuanced -- like this one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: Tathagatagarbha and Eternity
Content:


adinatha said:
One word: jnana

Jnana is directly perceived and self-aware(intuited).

A non-phenomenal existence.

And it is endowed with compassion.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not an existence, as the passage you cite above from the UT shows. Jñāna is free from extremes. It is inappropriate to call it an "existence".

Further, Jñāna is not an object, so it cannot be directly perceived (in sūtra). It is the personal intuition of reality, however.

You will agree that it is always important to frame your context.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


adinatha said:
Okay self-intuited. Same point.

Malcolm wrote:
It is an important point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
This is the case, but now you have left the teaching of the Tathagatagarbha sutras behind. That is not how they present the arising of the rūpakāya.

N

adinatha said:
The case is the case, reinterpret on down.


Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what level. The way Dzogchen presents the three kāyas is incompatible with sūtra, but sūtra is not necessarily incompatible with Dzogchen. I understand that when one starts learning Dzogchen, it is a temptation to always explain everything in that way. But it confuses issues because in reality, according to Dzogchen classification scheme in Nyinthig, Dzogchen is really part of Abhidharma, and not sūtra.

I am just saying that your presentation is not consistent with Tathāgatagarbha sutra theory. It does not have to be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
adinatha said:
I bow down to the sun of dharma,
which is neither existence nor non-existence,
nor a combination of existence and non-existence,
nor something other than existence and non-existence:
the unexaminable, beyond all verbal definition,
self-cognisant, peace,
stainless, brilliant with the light jnana,
which completely destroys craving for,
aversion to or dullness toward mental objects.

-Uttaratantra
Key-word: self-cognisant


Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, this is not really translated correctly. The Sanskrit for this is "pratyātmavedyaḥ", this means "personally intuited", not self-cognizant. This is a common mistake made by translators when they do not realize that སོ་སོ་རང་གིས་རིག་པ (so so rang gi rig pa) is not a translation of svāsaṃvedana (self-reflexive or self-cognising). The two terms are very different in meaning. You could say "self-cognized" i.e. meaning something you personally understood.

The commentary on this passage by Kontrul bears this out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
adinatha said:
If kayas were caused they'd be impermanent.


Namdrol said:
In your opinion, the rūpakāya has no cause?

N

adinatha said:
Spontaneous appearance.

Cause and effect appear dualistically in the mode of deluded perception.

aka Bingo

Malcolm wrote:
This is the case, but now you have left the teaching of the Tathagatagarbha sutras behind. That is not how they present the arising of the rūpakāya.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
None of these statements ... can be taken literally.

adinatha said:
This is the abiding condition.


Malcolm wrote:
They still cannot be taken literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
adinatha said:
If kayas were caused they'd be impermanent.


Malcolm wrote:
In your opinion, the rūpakāya has no cause?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: Is there a Soul in Buddhism?
Content:
adinatha said:
746. The ego (atma) characterised with purity is the state of self-realisation; this is the Tathagata's womb (garbha) which does not belong to the realm of the theorisers.

Lankavatara Sutra


Malcolm wrote:
Lankavatara:

27. An ego-soul is a truth belonging to thought-construction, in which there is no real reality; the self-nature of the Skandhas is also a thought-construction, as there is no reality in it.

121. [According to the Buddha,] there is nothing in the world but the Mind itself, and all that is of duality has its rise from the Mind and is seen as perceived and perceiving; an ego-soul and what belongs to it—they exist not.

(211)...Mahamati, at the eighth stage the Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas, Sravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas cease cherishing discriminative ideas that arise from the Citta, Mana and Manovijnana. From the first stage up to the sixth, they perceive that the triple world is no more than the Citta. Manas, and Manovijnana, that as it is born of a discriminating mind there is no ego-soul and what belongs to it, and that there is no falling into the multitudinousness of external objects except through [the discrimination of] the Mind itself.

(220)...The Blessed One said this to him: Mahamati, the Tathagata-garbha holds within it the cause for both good and evil, and by it all the forms of existence are produced. Like an actor it takes on a variety of forms, and [in itself] is devoid of an ego-soul and what belongs to it.

(225)...Said the Blessed One: Mahamati, the ignorant cling to names, ideas, and signs; their minds move along [these channels]. As thus they move along, they feed on multiplicities of objects, and fall into the notion of an ego-soul and what belongs to it, and cling to salutary appearances. As thus they cling, there is a reversion to ignorance, and they become tainted, karma born of greed, anger, and folly is accumulated. As karma is accumulated again and again, their minds become swathed in the cocoon of discrimination as the silk-worm; and, transmigrating in the ocean of birth-and-death (gati), they are unable, like the water-drawing wheel, to move forward. And because of folly, they do not understand that all things are like Maya, a mirage, the moon in water, and have no self-substance to be imagined as an ego-soul and its belongings; that things rise from their false discrimination; that they are devoid of qualified and qualifying; and have nothing to do with the course of birth, abiding, and destruction; that they are born of the discrimination of what is only seen of the Mind itself; and assert1 that they are born of Isvara, time, atoms, or a supreme spirit, for they follow names and appearances. Mahamati, the ignorant move along with appearances.

281. There are no Skandhas in Nirvana, nor is there an ego-soul, nor any individual signs; (302) by entering into the Mind-only, one escapes from becoming attached to emancipation.

739. Those theorisers who are without knowledge are frightened at eternalism and nihilism; (357) the ignorant are unable to distinguish between the Samskrita, the Asamskrita, and the ego-soul.

851. The ego-soul is not, and the mind is born; how does this evolving come about? Is it not said that its appearing is like a river, a lamp, and a seed?

Obviously, the treatment of Atman in the Lanka is complicated and cannot be neatly summarized in one sentence.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 3:58 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
adinatha said:
No. It's eternal, not impermanent, permanent.

Namdrol said:
Buddhadhātu, tathāgatagarbha, is not a substantial thing. It is, for example, described as the dharmakāya encased in obscurations in the Śrīmālādevi sūtra.

It is styled "permanent" for the reasons I gave above which you can easily find in the Uttaratantra.

adinatha said:
Buddhadhatu is endowed with qualities.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

The dharmakāya possesses the qualities of liberation; the rūpakaya possess the qualities of maturation such as the major and minor marks.

All of this is clearly explained in Uttaratantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
adinatha said:
The tathagatagharba is eternal.


Namdrol said:
Maitreyanatha clarifies that the buddhadhātu is called "permanent" because it is beyond all extremes of permanence and impermanence.

He makes the same observation about "self": it is called a self because it is beyond extreme of identity and absence of identity.

adinatha said:
Second turning's meaning. Third turning's is definitive.

Malcolm wrote:
Ahem -- this is what he says in Uttaratantra, the only commentary on the tathāgatagarbha sutras we have. This is the third turning POV. Read Uttaratantra. For example, he says that kāyas of the buddhas are permanent because their causes are endless based on the two accumulations.

He explains that the dharmakāya is permanent since the non-duality of samsara and nirvana has been realized.

None of these statements of purity, bliss, self and permanence can be taken literally. Otherwise, one will be no different than a tīrthika.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: CNN teaching Changchub Dorje's Medicine Terma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
UPDATED SCHEDULE OF KUNSANGAR RETREAT
Moscow Time GMT+4

May 3
10:00 - 12:00 – Dzogchen Teaching
12:30 – 13:00 – Short Ganapuja

May 4
10:00 - 12:00 – Dzogchen Teaching

May 5
10:00 - 12:00 – Dzogchen Teaching
17.00 Ganapuja

May 6
10:00 - 12:00 – Dzogchen Teaching


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
adinatha said:
No. It's eternal, not impermanent, permanent.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadhātu, tathāgatagarbha, is not a substantial thing. It is, for example, described as the dharmakāya encased in obscurations in the Śrīmālādevi sūtra.

It is styled "permanent" for the reasons I gave above which you can easily find in the Uttaratantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
adinatha said:
The tathagatagharba is eternal.


Malcolm wrote:
Maitreyanatha clarifies that the buddhadhātu is called "permanent" because it is beyond all extremes of permanence and impermanence.

He makes the same observation about "self": it is called a self because it is beyond extreme of identity and absence of identity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Keshin said:
The way you guys have presented it is not the Dharma I was learned, I know that much. The way I am told Buddhism is here, like other forms of nihilism and embracing nothingness, are certainly not the beautiful Dharma I learned.

Malcolm wrote:
You are free to believe whatever you wish, of course.

But when you cite a Dzogchen text to support views that do not accord with Dzogchen, don't be surprised if someone points that out to you.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Keshin said:
Honestly, it doesn't feel that way here, at all. It's come across like I've committed a thoughtcrime.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you just are laboring under misapprehension about what Buddhism in general teaches.



Namdrol said:
There is no basis. Dharmakāya is not something which exists. It is something, according to Dzogchen, that completely lacks any basis or foundation. Dharmakāya is a complete and total emptiness. It is not however a void emptiness, like space i.e. mere absence. Dharmakāya is original purity.
That doesn't make sense to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen, of which kun byed rgyal po is a key text, does not make sense to a lot of people. This is why you need transmission to understand it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2011 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Keshin, first post said:
but I do believe in a transcendent all-pervading unity...

Keshin said:
This is not the message of the Kun byed rgyal po. A transcendent all-pervading unity is Advaita Vedanta or Kashmir Shaivism.
and I don't believe in a "soul" that is separate from this Unity.
Advaita or Kashmir Shaivism again.

I'm also one of those people who seems to be pre-programmed by his mind to believing in something that could be called as "God". I'm a panentheist and see everything as what I consider as God, but that God to transcend everything too, and that our "souls" are a part of that being.
Advaita or Kashmir Shaivism again.


I'm comfortable using the term 'God' when referring to the Adibuddha/Dharmakaya Unmanifest/Amitābha (*from the "Eternal Buddha" perspective), and I'm comfort able using the term 'True Self' or 'Soul', when referring to the Buddha-nature/Mindstream & Base Consciousness together. I use "God", because that's an immediately accessible term for me - but I use it in a panentheistic (God is in all and beyond all) and transpersonal (does not intervene and make prophets and stuff, but is not an unfeeling, personality-less, non-sapient entity).
You are not using these terms as intended.
Regarding Soul: Effectively, it's our "True Selves", free some skandhic-ness: one with the Dharmakāya, our Buddha-nature, and pretty much the Buddha-nature/Mindstream & Base Consciousness together. Possibly even a Self of Nirvāṇic permanency beyond the skandhic mundane world, but I'm not sure at the moment.
There is no basis. Dharmakāya is not something which exists. It is something, according to Dzogchen, that completely lacks any basis or foundation. Dharmakāya is a complete and total emptiness. It is not however a void emptiness, like space i.e. mere absence. Dharmakāya is original purity.
Soul = Buddha-nature from a Tathāgathagarbha Sūtra and Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra interpretation. Not an "I" or ego-self.
The Lanka-avatara sutra was written to correct the misunderstanding that some gained from the ten tathāgatagarbha sutras that tathātagarbha was equivalent to a soul.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Is there a Soul in Buddhism?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Actually, this what Shankaracarya writes about rebirth and I have seen it reproduced more or less verbatim by neo-Hindus like David Frawley.

Keshin said:
Sounds like you're missing the metaphors of things and taking them literally if that is the case.

I've heard no Hindus who believe this is what happens. Considering I visit mandir on a regular basis and chat with a lot of Hindus, why is this the first time I've actually heard of it? Can you give some sources for this?


Malcolm wrote:
Dig around, you will find it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Is there a Soul in Buddhism?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The Hindus have a very strange idea of reincarnation from a Buddhist point of view. They believe that when you die, your atman ascends a kind of vapor which travels to the moon. There, you hang out for a while and eventually, you descend into the clouds, where your soul, mixing with the water vapor in the clouds, is rained down onto earth where your soul become embodied in plants, eventually climbing through the animal kingdom, etc.

N

Keshin said:
No offence, but this is completely wrong.
I don't know from what kind of Hindus you have learnt this, but it ain't the same ones as I have.

I have NEVER, EVER heard this view, and I visit mandir regularly and have a lot of Hindu friends. You are taking the Vedas at face value to claim this, which is not the case, especially now.

Maybe they believed this in 2500BCE, but they certainly don't now.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, this what Shankaracarya writes about rebirth and I have seen it reproduced more or less verbatim by neo-Hindus like David Frawley.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Exploring Buddhism
Content:
Keshin said:
Define soul

Malcolm wrote:
Permanent essence in an individual. This does not exist.



Keshin said:
It may also help people to know I can't not see what I use the "God" for. I take a closer affiliation with the Jonang and Pure Landers than I do other groups, especially ones who focus on absolute non-self-ness.

Malcolm wrote:
Jonangpas are not theists.Their argument is quite different. They are arguing that qualities of buddhas are naturally present in sentient beings, albeit covered up. That emptiness is not just a blank void, but is endowed with qualities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
spanda said:
A quote from "The Authority of Empiricism and the Empiricism of Authority:  Medicine and Buddhism in Tibet on the Eve of Modernity" by Janet Gyatso


Malcolm wrote:
The only quibble I have with Janet is her referring to the srog rtsa dkar nag as white and black "soul" channels. That is ridiculous. srog means "life" and these two channels provide the basis for life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Exploring Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Bodhicitta aka Kun byed rgyal po

Keshin said:
Bodhicitta is jang chub sem, isn't it?
For one, the Kulayaraja Tantra (Kunjed Gyalpo) is "All Creating King". Raja = King after all.

Or am I missing what you are trying to say, that Bodhicitta is the All Creating King?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, bodhicitta ( as defined in its rdzog chen sense) is the all-creating king, the kun byed rgyal po or as Norbu Rinpoche translates it, the supreme source.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Exploring Buddhism
Content:


Keshin said:
That's not a sort of Buddhist theism?
What kind of theism are you thinking of that this is not? Because from my angle, this is definitely panentheism.

Malcolm wrote:
It is talking about what happens when you don't recognize the nature of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 11:38 AM
Title: Re: Is there a Soul in Buddhism?
Content:
conebeckham said:
When you light a new candle from a burning candle stub, by holding the the flame of the  burning soon-to-be-burned-out stub next to the wick of the new candle, just as the stub goes out, is the flame of the new candle the same as the flame of the old candle?

We can say there is a "cause and effect" relationship at work here, but we cannot point to anything in the nature of the flame, or in either candle, that is unchanging and uniquely defining. Nonetheless, there is some continuum of energy or heat which was "passed" from the stub to the new candle....though that energy or heat can't be isolated.

Rebirth is the same.

Pero said:
Thanks! How would you make an example for Hindu reincarnation?

Malcolm wrote:
The Hindus have a very strange idea of reincarnation from a Buddhist point of view. They believe that when you die, your atman ascends a kind of vapor which travels to the moon. There, you hang out for a while and eventually, you descend into the clouds, where your soul, mixing with the water vapor in the clouds, is rained down onto earth where your soul become embodied in plants, eventually climbing through the animal kingdom, etc.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
moksha said:
Thanks, everyone. I have to admit to being slightly overwhelmed by the responses to this topic. There seems to be so many different paths and branches to Buddhism, as well as that, a lot of the terminology here has no meaning to me as yet. I suppose I should start by reading the Kunjed Gyalpo. I hope it's easy to get hold of, there's a lot here I don't understand.

As for how I would define God, I would define God as the power and force existent in all things to whom we are ultimately answerable and who has complete control over the universe. So I mean God in a very absolute sense. I have always felt a connection with that God - or what I would define as such. And God has always been good to me when I have needed help [for which I ask very very rarely]. So when one says "what has God ever done for you?" I would answer with, "the things I have asked for".

Malcolm wrote:
There is no God. It doesn't exist. There is no force that has complete control over the universe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 11:24 AM
Title: Re: Exploring Buddhism
Content:


Keshin said:
I don't find the view of God and Buddhism, or even True Self ("soul") to be against Buddhism.

It may be worth reading the Kunjed Gyalpo (aka Kulayarāja Tantra). That's like, a goldmine.  Here's two excerpts:

" ... everything is Me, the All-Creating Sovereign, mind of perfect purity ... I am the cause of all things. I am the stem of all things. I am the ground of all things. I am the root of all things ... There is no other Buddha besides Me, the All-Creating One."

"I am the core of all that exists. I am the seed of all that exists. I am the foundation of all that exists. I am the root of existence. I am 'the core', because I contain all phenomena. I am 'the seed', because I give birth to everything. I am 'the cause', because all comes forth from me. I am 'the trunk', because the ramificationsof every event sprout from me. I am 'the foundation', because all abides in me. I am called 'the root', because I am everything."

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a sort of Buddhist theism.

Bodhicitta aka Kun byed rgyal po gives rise to everything when it is not recognized for what it actually is i.e. the nature of one's mind. Very similar statements are found in Mahāmudra literature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2011 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Purchasing Guggul
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Ok, just ordered some. Two quick questions: 1) is it only used to dispel obstructors, or is it also used as offering to wrathful yidams? 2) also, do you need to burn it on charchol or somethinng or can you just stivk it in an incense burner and light it?


Malcolm wrote:
Need charcoal -- will not burn on its own.

However you can get gugul essential oil, and use in an aromatherapy kit


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: H.H. Sakya Trizin - Cambridge, MA
Content:
mr. gordo said:
I just got a notification in my email:

His Holiness the Sakya Trizin will confer the empowerment of Guru Rinpoche Padmasambava for the first time in America.

The Guru Rinpoche empowerment and transmission of Barche Lamsel and Sampa Lhundrub to help overcome obstacles and fullfil one's wishes.

I looked up Barche Lamsel and found the following:

Barché Lamsel (Wyl. bar chad lam sel) — the outer practice of prayer from Lamé Tukdrup Barché Kunsel (The Heart Practice of the Lama: Averting All Obstacles on the Path), which was revealed by Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa together with Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo. 

Sampa Lhundrup (Wish Fulfilling Prayer) is a powerful protection prayer written by Guru Rinpoche. This practice is said to be effective in helping one achieve good fortune and protection from calamities. It also effective in helping one attain their wishes quickly and also, overcome all kinds of obstacles on their path to enlightenment

So does this empowerment have two different mantras?


Malcolm wrote:
He will give the lung for these prayers, and an empowerment of Padmasambhava, cycle TBD.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen
Content:
Enochian said:
Ok forgot about the nature of mind stuff.  I really don't care about validation.   Its not like I am going to set myself up as some sort nonduality guru like Eckhart Tolle or Adyashanti.

If I was going to do something like that, I would have done it years ago.

But back to OBE....

I see absolutely no difference between certian types of phowa and the high level projection technique in Astral Dynamics, first edition.  Even the purpose is the same, to access high level planes such as the heavens.  And both involve essentially a crown center exit.

And also Dalai Lama mentions in realtion to these things, the ability to become a "perfect spy."  If that is not OBE, I don't know what is.


Malcolm wrote:
OBE is a conceptual exercise. Phowa (at death) is deliberately severing the connection of your wind/mind with your body. When you train in this, there is no concept of access to some heaven. The purpose of it is integrate one's mind with the Guru's mind -- it is just that outer phowa one is doing this very dualistically. But that is not the main point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: Pure Lands
Content:
username said:
Shambhala is in a physical location on earth...

Malcolm wrote:
This is not my teacher, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's, understanding. His understanding is that Shambhala once existed, and and now no longer exists, having been destroyed by Muslims.

As AFAIC the whole thing "Shambhala" war thing is a metaphor. "Barbarians" are the afflictions, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 7:28 PM
Title: Re: Do not rejoice any killing!
Content:
narraboth said:
We say we will have compassion on EVERY sentient being, especially includeing those who are in lower realm, we will not give up any of them.

So, even someone is a notorious terrible criminal, we should feel sad about what he's definitely going to suffer. Remember, when we generate compassion to beings in Hell, they probably did lots of bad thing in previous life too (that's why they are in Hell realm now).
Killing is killing. Do not rejoice it just because the one who being killed is a criminal or your enemy.

I hope he would give up his wrong view if he would have chance to gain human body again, I wish he and people who suffered from him will all go on the right path in the end.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed. Osama Bin Laden was an evil man. But we should not rejoice in his killing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 7:23 PM
Title: Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen
Content:
dingirfecho said:
Enochian, what I don`t get is, if you`re an academician, why don`t you suscribe to one of the many academic forums for buddhism? Vajradhara knows the net is full of them, and this line of inquiry will be better supported by, say, Richard Hayes than Namdrol.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, if you want to listen to the screeds of a materialist raconteur who has decided to fall in line with Batchelorism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 7:21 PM
Title: Re: Hypoglycemia
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Thanks very much for this link, Namdrol. This looks like something I would love to try. However, the next cleanse isn't happening until next Fall and my hypoglycemia has really been flaring up lately. In the meantime, would you recommend the following Sorig tea to tide me over until I can do the cleanse? http://www.tibetarts.com/product.info.php?cPath=38&products_id=494 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or perhaps this one? http://www.tibetarts.com/product.info.php?cPath=38&products_id=510&lof_website=bb658f59c7ea145f38c113698b4b974b " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Malcolm wrote:
You don' have to wait until the fall. You can buy the package and do it yourself. Email them for more info.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: lacking the capacity
Content:
rai said:
when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!


Namdrol said:
Capacity depends on personal interest and diligence -- nothing more.

N

mr. gordo said:
Oh, I thought it was based on the intelligence of the practitioner to grasp the teachings.  Thanks for the clarification.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, it is based solely on your karmic connection with the teachings. If you have that, then you have capacity -- whether it is high, low or medium capacity depends solely on your efforts and interests.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 5:43 AM
Title: Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen
Content:


Enochian said:
Is Dzogchen beyond even this?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen
Content:
Enochian said:
If you 100% NEED a transmission to understand Dzogchen, that means it is conditioned.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it just means that people are conditioned.

Dzogchen is a personal experience of one's actual state. For that you simply need someone who has that knowledge to show you the same. It is not something you will ever figure out on your own. That is your limitation, not the limitation of the teachings.

It is for example like a begger who uses a rock for a pillow, never dreaming that inside the rock is a precious diamond.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: lacking the capacity
Content:
rai said:
when one knows that there is time to go back to more gradual path? if few years passed and there is no real recognition, would it be wise to consider oneself as not having high capacity and try to find more gradual teacher? I remember someone was writing on e-sangha that some people stick with DC for too long without any progress. PS it is not so easy to check with the teacher as there are thousand of students.

Thank you!


Malcolm wrote:
Capacity depends on personal interest and diligence -- nothing more.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen
Content:
Enochian said:
Why would I understand Dzogchen?  I never had transmission.

Malcolm wrote:
Then it is pointless for you to make any proclamations about it or imagine it is "limited" and so on.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
adinatha said:
=
then there most certainly is development.

Malcolm wrote:
Whatever you want to believe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:


adinatha said:
Okay you are mixing up apples and oranges, pointing out and path. Pointing out is just recognition. You still have to remain in that until it fully develops. That is true for Dzogchen too. The question is whether Mahamudra like Dzogchen has a shazam of pointing out leading only to recognition and contemplation. No one gets a direct intro in either of these lineages and blink, omniscient.

Malcolm wrote:
There is nothing to develop in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen
Content:
gnegirl said:
Its kinda funny, 'cause even the direct-transmissions schools like Rinzai Zen require a Zen master to facilitate the process.


Enochian said:
I understand this.  But Dalai Lama himself gives 50% of it away when he says there is a discrepency between thoughtforms and reality.  And this is in every nonrestricted book in the bookstore by him.

Malcolm wrote:
You might have some idea about emptiness. But you don't understand Dzogchen at all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2011 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
adinatha said:
The shazam method in the mahamudra tradition is explained in the Eighth Tai Situpa's commentary on the 3rd Karmapa's Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
The descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment originally comes from the Mahāmudra chapter of the Jñan̄asiddhi written by Indrabhuti. Tai Situ's presentation is completely based on this. In fact, the whole Kagyu essence Mahamudra tradition uses this text to justify its approach.

However, the Jñan̄asiddhi still presents a gradual path. In the very next chapter after the Mahāmudra chapter in this text, Indrabhuti states:

"One whose yoga engages the mind
through the application
of gradual training becomes a buddha,
there is no other way to accomplish Buddhahood."

So, it is pretty clear that Mahāmudra in general is considered a gradual path.

However, in regards to so called Cigcarwas, those whose awakening is sudden, merely through an introduction -- an early Nyingma master of the twelfth century, Zhigpo Dudtsi remarked, "Apart from Saraha in India, and Lingje Repa (founder of Drugpa Kagyu), I have never heard of any other cigcarwas. Maybe they exist, but I have never met one."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Medicine Buddha mantra, sanskrit romanization
Content:
gnegirl said:
Ok....

How does one pronouce 'Bhaishjaye '?  (pretty sure' bekanze'  is probably close, but not exact...)


Malcolm wrote:
Bhai as in "buy"

sha is in "sharp"

jye as in "Jye

I.e. very roughly buy-sha-jye

As it is spelled. Tibetans cannot, in general, pronounce the Sanskrit Ś or Ṣ  syllable when it is inside of a word. So they substitute a "kh" syllable i.e. akha for aṣṭa, eight.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment according to Hinayana
Content:
Namdrol said:
Theravadins are considered to be substantialist by Tibetan Buddhists.

Kare said:
If that really is the case, it is sad, since it seems to indicate that Tibetan Buddhists who hold this view, live in their own separate bubble of misunderstandings. They need to break through this bubble and discover the real world.

Malcolm wrote:
I have read Theravadins who definitely hold what I would consider substantialist views. I have read Thervadins who do not. I find some Abhidhamma to be very substantialist in tone.

Mahāyāna bodhicitta does not exist for most Theravadins, and the narrow criteria for who can generate something resembling Mahāyāna style bodhicitta is so strict as to discourage anyone from trying (one reason, you see, why the Saddharmapundarika predicts everyone for full buddhahood as conceived by the authors of the Pundarika).

Kare said:
There once were schools - like the Sarvastivada and the Pudgalavada schools - that might be called substantialist (although I am not quite sure if that would be a correct description of them, either).

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is. They really do assert things really exist on some level or another -- atoms, moments, persons, etc. Early Buddhists went crazy with a proliferation of dharmas to explain everything, just as Mahayanists went crazy with cosmic narratives ala Puranas.

Kare said:
If those schools were denounced as substantialists by the Mahayana/Vajrayana - and subsequently called "Hinayana" - and if then afterwards a further misunderstanding led to Theravada being identified as "Hinayana", that might perhaps explain how such a bizarre view arose.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, in my opinion the distinction between Mahāyāna and Hināyāna really hinges on how vinaya was interpreted more than anything. Mahāyānists consistently maintain that intent is more important than the vow. That under certain circumstances a monastic could even kill a human being, lie about miraculous powers, etc. without losing his monastic vows. Mahāyānists felt that many monastics used their vows as an excuse to disengage from the world. There is element of "engaged" Buddhism in the formation of early Mahāyāna that has been overlooked. Of course, at the same time, there also trends in Mahāyāna that suggest withdrawing from the world.

Mahāyāna is not a coherent, monolithic entity either. This is perhaps the most important thing to recognize -- apart from distinct features common to all Mahāyāna schools, the development of Mahāyāna was not a rational evolution, the development of any system of thought with many contributing thinkers never is (including Theravada).

So called Modern Mahāyāna is basically a scholastic fabrication every bit as much as Modern Theravada is.

The fact is that circumstances on the ground are not so easy -- there used to be Mahāyāna Thervadins until they are were crushed in Shri Lanka. So, in general the main line of division is that all monastic orders belong to a so called "hināyāna" because their goal and intention is inferior and lower. The vows of monk are the essence of "hināyāna" because they are so restrictive. Theravadins, etc., thought it was scandalous that so called Mahāyāna bhiksus would freely handle gold, sometimes go to bars, and generally mix with the population. In some ways the monastic orders were too elite oriented and this created a vacuum where the populist Mahāyānis could easily fill. It is often easier to get your spiritual milk from the guy you drink beer with than a priest. This also explains the popularity of the siddha movement later on.

Mahāyāna was originally sub-altern movement that was bucking the monastic establishment while at the time trying to co-opt it. It also did not develop rationally, but was rationalized by later Mahāyānis once certain Mahāyāna trends were set as "establishment" and gained royal support post Nāgārjuna. Nāgārjuna's secured his place in history no so much because of what he wrote, but because of who his friends were (kings). This is the way of samsara.

Then Mahāyāna grew stale, abstract, irrelevant to needs of normal people and we have another sub-altern movement, anuttarayoga tantra (I exclude lower tantras because these were never sub-altern movements -- but from the beginning grew out of a need to parallel the replacement of brahmins in the burgeoning context of a growing Puranic culture for ritual needs of the aristocracy and commoners).

Finally, the Huns, then Hindu Kings, and finally Persian Moslems burnt, dismembered and interred Buddhism in its homeland over a period of 700 years.

We need to not forget that -- and we need to make sure our Buddhism, whatever it is, is as relevant to the beer drinker (without of course insisting that he give up his beer) as it is to a scholar.

Kare said:
Well said.

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks.

Buddhism is a vast tree planted in the soil of India, which shot out runners in many different directions. All of our Buddhist teachings are shoots from that tree, at least in this era. There were other Buddhas, other eras. But root, trunk, branch, leaf, and flower all lead to but one result. Awakening. And that is the most important thing to recall when conversing and discussing with our fellow Buddhists.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment according to Hinayana
Content:
retrofuturist said:
Which is interesting, because I'd suggest the suttas themselves...


Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan Buddhists, obviously, don't consider the Buddha to be a substantialist. And as you know, Nāgārjuna cites this sutta as a criticism of Sarvastivadin substantialism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Purchasing Guggul
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Namdrol,

Is there a reliable store online where I can purchase guggul to burn in my home? To your knowledge is it common for people to sell some knockoff substance as guggul?


Malcolm wrote:
Tsegyalgar has gugul.

And no. Not to my knowledge. It smells like hash, so pretty hard to fake.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Hypoglycemia
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Namdrol,

Can you offer any advice from the TM POV about stabilizing chronic hypoglycemia. All I currently know to do is eat smaller, more frequent meals, eat plenty of fiber, and avoid refined sugars and foods with a high glycemic index. I also tend toward whole and sprouted grains and breads made from them, etc., and I'm tending toward eating locally-grown, organic veggies. Oh and of course I know to exercise and try to slim down some. Anything else I can do, or anything I've mentioned that I should change?


Malcolm wrote:
If you want to fix your hypoglycemia, do this cleanse:

http://www.lifespa.com/coloradocleanse.aspx " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have done this cleanse. It is based on Ayurvedic principles, is intelligently put together. This is the system I use.

It is highly effective and also very gentle.

Really, I mean it.

You will lose 8-15 pounds while eating three healthy meals a day.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet
Content:
heart said:
He is saying  "The conclusion I’d like to draw is that at least some Buddhists, by the end of the 10th century and perhaps earlier, thought of the funeral rituals practised in earlier times by Tibetan ritual specialists as a religion called Bon." . It is clear enough.

/magnus




Enochian said:
In this sentence, he is saying 10th century buddhists RETROACTIVELY applied the term "Bon"

Why not try reading it?

heart said:
Yes, but of course it is retroactively since the text are from the 10th century, but according to normal scientific approach that is a confirmation of the theory that there was a religion called Bon before the 10th century.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Troy existed  900 years before the Illiad and for 2600 hundred years all we knew of it was a story -- then someone tracked the story down and found a city buried where the story said it would be three thousand years later.

There certainly was a religion in Tibet we can call "Bon" prior to Buddhism. The first Tibetan king live circa 120 BCE. Prior to that there were many generations of Zhang Zhung kings. Zhang Zhung fell not because of Tibetan aggression -- the kingdom of Zhang Zhung failed because of overgrazing and climate change (for which there is both archaeological evidence and climate evidence).

Bon claims to had a transmission of Dzogchen, etc.,, independent of Shakyamuni Buddha and Garab Dorje's lineage according to their tradition coming from a teacher Shenrab Miwoche. They place the origin of Tonpa Shenrab in Western Central Asia.
This is reasonable since it is a certainty that the Zhang Zhung people migrated to the high plateau of western Tibet from somewhere else, most likely the west and they were not Tibetan, so did not come into Tibet through the low country in Kongpo like the early Tibetan tribes.

After the fall of Zhang Zhung, some Zhang Zhung people continued to migrate east into eastern Tibet and western China, settling in the border lands there. The Naxi people are among the remnants of this migration.

Some Zhang Zhung people stayed behind and moved south into the lower more fertile valleys around Kinnaur. There exists is a small population that continues to speak a descendent of Zhang Zhung language. In my opinion, because Tibetan became the dominant tongue in Western Tibet, the Zhang Zhung people lost their original grammar and thus the small Kinnauri population that speak "Zhang Zhung dialect" of Tibetan now speak a kind of colonial patois of Tibetan with many Zhang Zhung words.

The real facts are lost to history. But we can respect Yungdrung Bon as a fellow tradition that shares the ideals, goals, and essential doctrines of Buddhism. We also should respect Bon because it is important to Tibetan culture.

Did Bon borrow extensively from Buddhism? well, in my opinion, it is very likely. Does this matter? No. Does it matter if it can all be pinned down definitively? No. Do Bonpos attain liberation through Dzogchen teachings? Yes. That, in the end, is all that matters (if you are a Dzogchen practitioner).

Do people sometimes get confused about all this? Often. Is Buddhist behavior towards Bon often despicable? Yes.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Ojas
Content:
rai said:
what period of celibacy would make a difference in rebuilding the ojas for someone who had a draining lifestyle for some time? (i know nothing about rasayana but will try to imporve my diet).

how long breaks between sexual intercourses are advisable for maintaining good health? is it the general rule - the less sex the better?

Thank you!


Malcolm wrote:
Yes -- here is a general guideline for men. Though this has changed a bit with modern diet and availability of foods around the seasons from all over the world, there are still some trends we can observe -- when it is hot, we tend to eat much lighter and lighter, less nutritious food, and when it is cold, we eat heavier, oilier, more nutritious food. When people ate according to the cycle of the year, this was much more pronounced. Therefore, in the winter months, when it is cold and one is eating a lot of heavy food, one can ejaculate as much as five times a day with no health problem. As one moves through spring, this reduces to every two days, and finally in summer only every two weeks. When one starts to increase one's intake of nutritious foods in the fall through harvest and slaughter season (which happens in late fall in Tibet), then one can increase to every other day.

Now, if someone is depleted, they should not have sex because in this case, as in summer, one loses a little ojas with ejaculation. If one is healthy, winter time, eating well, etc., there is no danger of losing ojas because one has excess.

While women do not have the same issue -- menstruation can be a cause of depleting ojas if they are not careful with their diet.

Ojas is mainly depleted by stress. A lot of autoimmune disorders come from depleted ojas because of modern lifestyle.

B


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Namdrol said:
When the basis arises out of the basis, i.e. when the five lights of wisdom are stirred by vāyu after the shell of the youthful vase body is rent there is a neutral awareness [shes pa lung ma bstan] that does not recognize itself. That simple non-recognition is the innate ignorance. That neutral awareness has two options either it recognizes itself [vidyā], becoming Samantabhadra, or it does not, and through imputing self and other onto the appearance of the basis, creating samsara. That imputation of self and other is the imputing ignorance.

Hayagriva said:
This sounds very, very similar to the instruction/explanation of a type of ignorance that's mentioned at the beginning of Mipham's "Torch of Certainty". Is it the same?

Malcolm wrote:
Probably.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment according to Hinayana
Content:
Namdrol said:
Just as you will not find any Sakya or Nyingmapa agreeing that common Mahāyān is capable of producing complete buddhahood either.

mr. gordo said:
Do you mean in one lifetime, or ever?  I always thought it just took longer (eons).


Malcolm wrote:
Ever.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 11:28 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment according to Hinayana
Content:
dakini_boi said:
Interesting food for thought.

Nomenclature notwithstanding, I have a follow-up question.  From a Mahayana perspective, it sounds as if the Hinayana-type "Nirvana" would NOT be a permanent state - but perhaps a long but temporary stay in the formless god realms.  Is this correct?


Malcolm wrote:
Nope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 10:17 AM
Title: Re: Five-Long Life Sisters and Tseringma
Content:
Jinzang said:
I checked the book before posting. I missed two brief passages which, thanks to Google, I could find in the http://bit.ly/k9sT3A. The more relevant of the two goes,
Then came the Goddess Tseringma to test me by displaying various super-nornal powers.
The other passage is
Coming thence to Chubar, he preached three sermons regarding Tseringma.
So while it's fair to say that the story of Tseringma is mentioned in Milarepa's most famous bography,  don't think it's correct to say that it's in Milarepa's biography. But words are slippery and you are entitled to your interpretation.

Malcolm wrote:
The point was two-fold. Tseringma had been tamed by Padmasambhava, not Mila. Second, that Tseringma appeared to test Mila's yogic power.

Thanks for reinforcing my point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 9:19 AM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Heres a question...
I have read a little about Dzogchen. Only had one teaching on it from a qualified Lama, definitely not an expert though. What is the difference (if any) between pointing out instructions and what is called the "Mind to Mind transmission" found in Chan? Would be nice to get some answers from those who are knowledgeable in both traditions.


Malcolm wrote:
The basic difference is as follows. With Dzogchen, right in the very beginning your primordial state is pointed out to you with words, symbols and personal experience. You then work with this, integrating into this knowledge.

In Zen, you practice for many years, discover your real nature, awaken, and then your awakening is signed off on by an awakened master, someone who is capable of recognizing the experience you have had and verifying it for you.

So, completely different.

I should clarify that there are lots of different traditions of "pointing out". And the way "pointing out" is done in Dzogchen is very different than the way it is done in Mahāmudrā -- the latter is far more gradual, in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 7:49 AM
Title: Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet
Content:
adinatha said:
The notion that ancient Tajiks had A path to buddhahood ...


Namdrol said:
I see you are keeping up the long Drigung tradition of anti-Bon polemics.

adinatha said:
Honestly I had no idea there was a long Drigung tradition of anti-Bon polemics. I'm just kiddin ya. I'm sure the Tazik people had a 20,000 year old high culture.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the first Buddhist polemical mention of Bon occurs in the initial commentarial literature of dgongs gcig by rdor she. The earliest Buddhist account of Bon was penned by Jigten Sumgon. Most other Buddhist presentations of Bon follow his rough outline.

There are other presentations of Bon which are more favorable, notably Guru Chowang's Great History of Treasures where he describes Tonpa Shenrab as a nirmanakāya. Guru Chowang is the original terton who revealed the seven line supplication to Guru Rinpoche.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 7:39 AM
Title: Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet
Content:
adinatha said:
The notion that ancient Tajiks had A path to buddhahood ...


Malcolm wrote:
I see you are keeping up the long Drigung tradition of anti-Bon polemics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Namdrol said:
Important point: the nature of the two or three ignorances are the same.

Pero said:
What does that mean?


Malcolm wrote:
They lack knowledge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment according to Hinayana
Content:


Kare said:
I know. And Nikaya Buddhists have very specific ideas about Mahayanists being tricked and deluded by false teachings and fraudulent texts.

Until some respected leaders in both camps have the wisdom and courage to cut through this sectarian silliness, I suppose it may go on for ever ...

Malcolm wrote:
It is a little hard to as Tibetans to come up with a different translation for theg dman or theg che chung.

It is equally naive to pretend that Tibetans did not understand that these terms included Theravadins. You might want to argue Tibetans had very little experience with Theravadins. And this is so to an extent -- but Tibetans were not completely unaware of their neighbors, were aware of Burma (part of the region Tibetans call Mon yul which extends from Bhutan to roughly the Irrawady), etc. and were certainly aware of Nikāya/Agamic monks in India and their tenets.

But the thing is, the term nyan thos (śravaka) suffers not so well either in hands of Tibetan commentators being another catch phrase for "those who just don't get it".

I don't think you will ever get any Tibetan master to agree that the realization of an arhat is functionally equivalent to that of a Buddha. Just as you will not find any Sakya or Nyingmapa agreeing that common Mahāyān is capable of producing complete buddhahood either.

Theravadins are considered to be substantialist by Tibetan Buddhists.

In the end, the best we can do is agree on the basic principles of Buddha's teachings and leave it at that and try to collaborate despite our differences, since there are not many Buddhists in the world, and many in other religious and secular ideologies who would happily see Buddhism as a whole destroyed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Heruka said:
Namdrol, im trying to seperate how the bright flickering of self knowing in the sterile ground of all, pollutes it, simply by this cognition. It seems this simple energy of cognition dulls awareness, and it unfolds and spreads out coemergent, rigpa/marigpa.

is it worth while trying to seperate to understand?

a bit lost in the terminology.


Malcolm wrote:
There are two ways to explain this -- one discusses three ignorance:  innate, resembling the cause, and imputing ignorances respectively alternately, one discusses two ignorances, innate and imputing. I will stick with the latter explanation for ease.



When the basis arises out of the basis, i.e. when the five lights of wisdom are stirred by vāyu after the shell of the youthful vase body is rent there is a neutral awareness [shes pa lung ma bstan] that does not recognize itself. That simple non-recognition is the innate ignorance. That neutral awareness has two options either it recognizes itself [vidyā], becoming Samantabhadra, or it does not, and through imputing self and other onto the appearance of the basis, creating samsara. That imputation of self and other is the imputing ignorance.

Most people do not realize that Samantabhadra initially possessed the first ignorance. He never possessed the second.

Important point: the nature of the two or three ignorances are the same.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment according to Hinayana
Content:
Kare said:
Before discussing the Hinayana any further, I suggest that this article may be useful:

http://www.lienet.no/hinayan1.htm " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
I would suggest that the usage of "hīna" hīnayāna, while derogatory, is derogatory primarily  in one of its specific senses you can easily find in the Pali Dictionary -- i.e. hīnāya āvattati, to turn to the lower, to give up orders, return to secular life.

From a Mahāyāna point of view, rejecting Mahāyāna is exactly "turning to the lower" in exactly the same sense that it was used in Pali canon.

There is no question that in Tibetan Buddhism, all Nikāya tenet systems are regarded as inferior and flawed by substantialism of one kind or another, and the Nikayas/Agamas, incomplete and provisional.

In other words, Mahayanists had very specific ideas about Buddhahood and found those that did not agree with them wanting in their understanding.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:



Enochian said:
You are the one who specifically asked bro.

:

Namdrol said:
I didn't ask you to be disrespectful about things which, according to your own admission, you know little.

N


Enochian said:
I apologize.  Greg gets on my nerves.  Honestly.

Malcolm wrote:
forgiven.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:



Enochian said:
You are the one who specifically asked bro.

:

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't ask you to be disrespectful about things which, according to your own admission, you know little.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Enochian said:
To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!


Malcolm wrote:
Remind me not to answer your questions either.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
adinatha said:
There were so many illiterate enlightened masters. The studying part is small compared to listening and contemplation. It just seems big when you're stuck in your head.


Malcolm wrote:
Suit yourself. Just don't bother me with anymore questions. Thanks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Enochian said:
1.  One cannot realize rigpa without transmission.  That implies Dzogchen is conditioned.

Malcolm wrote:
False implication. Rig pa is not the same as the basis. Rig pa is one's knowledge of the basis. That basis is perfectly complete.



Enochian said:
2.  I was working with chakras for my OBE and astral projection practice, before I even heard of "completion stage".  You raise energy through your chakras in a trance state, and then you do a exit technique.  No bullshit visualizations either, you just use body awareness and FEEL to manipulate the chakras.  The chakras are already there, so why visualize?  Where do you think you feel your emotions in your physical body??  The chakras.

Malcolm wrote:
I am very familiar with WET tradition, particularly the Crowleyan tradition. It is not even remotely the same.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Enochian said:
So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?

gregkavarnos said:
C'mon Enochian, it's high time you got your shit together and found yourself a teacher coz all this questioning of yours means nothing without practice (unless of course you are going to write a thesis about it all).  Do yourself a favour: practice practice, practice!


Enochian said:
There are some things that bother me about Vajrayana and Dzogchen.


Malcolm wrote:
Do tell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Namdrol said:
Reflection, reading and studying the most ancient Dzogchen texts is reflection. It is paramount.

N


Enochian said:
So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?

Malcolm wrote:
One can, but one will not be able to explain Dzogchen to others very well.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
***


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Namdrol said:
Ye shes bla ma is only sufficient to begin practice.

adinatha said:
You're a funny guy. This is bullshit. There are oral instructions of Togal even briefer than this.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, for example in Yangzab. As I said, insufficient for perfect understanding.

BTW, I meant Khenpo Ngachung's commentaries related to ye shes bl ma, of which there are several.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
adinatha said:
ChNN will talk about appearances of tigle and what they mean. Tigle comes even after five lights. So this mum about my question is bullshit.


Malcolm wrote:
ChNN has advised his students not to discuss these issues. He is my root guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2011 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
****


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
username said:
On getting the fourth vision without rigpa

Namdrol said:
It's not possible. There are many technical reasons why this is so.

adinatha said:
Can the five lights arise without Togal?


Malcolm wrote:
I am not going to answer this question, not because I can't, but because the answer will involve discussing things not appropriate to discuss with strangers.

Many times I have heard teachers say one should not discuss things like togal in bars. That does not mean you cannot mention the name "togal" in a bar -- but to explain it, etc., is inappropriate. In this instance I will follow the instructions of my teachers and disengage from this line of discussion.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 11:20 AM
Title: Re: Ojas
Content:
rai said:
Thank you Namdrol. Could you please advise any good literature in english to learn more about this subject?


Malcolm wrote:
There really is not much on this in English, or even in Sanskrit or Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 11:17 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
username said:
On getting the fourth vision without rigpa

Malcolm wrote:
It's not possible. There are many technical reasons why this is so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 11:15 AM
Title: Re: Five-Long Life Sisters and Tseringma
Content:
Jinzang said:
The story of Tseringma is in the Hundred Thousand Songs, not Tsang Nyong Heruka's biography.


Malcolm wrote:
It's in both places.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:


adinatha said:
This is a lower vehicle explanation.

Malcolm wrote:
You are a funny guy.

Anyway, I am quite sure in Drigung the 37 bodhipakṣa dharmas are considered important. Even high and mighty Dzogchen practitioners like you have mental factors.

Anyway, whatever happened to your dgongs gcig attitude? Remember, according to Jigten Sumgon, all yānas have the same intention.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
adinatha said:
As a side note, it is possible to get to the fourth appearance of Togal, not having been in rigpa...

Namdrol said:
No, it isn't.

adinatha said:
I think explanations differ drastically on this point. I understand your perspective of the systematic approach. I feel that it would be wonderful if things were this well modeled. But I'm afraid I don't agree they are.

Malcolm wrote:
As in so many things, we will have agree to disagree on this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Namdrol said:
It can be a sign of faith. .

adinatha said:
Here's what I mean. What the HELL is faith? It's not even a thought. What is it? It's nothing... But it connects you to the dharmakaya.


Malcolm wrote:
Faith is part of the samskara skandha. It is also part of the five powers, the five strengths. Faith is connected with the indriyas that lead to nirvana.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:


adinatha said:
Okay but what happened to KDL's body?

Malcolm wrote:
It is encased in a stupa.

adinatha said:
As a side note, it is possible to get to the fourth appearance of Togal, not having been in rigpa...

Malcolm wrote:
No, it isn't.


adinatha said:
I know of two such practitioners who this happened to. When they went to their lama and told them they'd finished, they were laughed at. 12 years of solitary retreat, wasted. That's so scary, I can't stand it.

Malcolm wrote:
They mistook increase of experience for exhaustion of dharmatā. They got impatient, and then published a nice picture book. Now they are running workshops on Dzogchen.




adinatha said:
I don't doubt KDL did it all the right way. He was a master...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, he taught me everything, soups to nuts.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:


Namdrol said:
Well, we don't agree that the reason is good. I am a trained doctor. Allopathic medicine is not all it is cracked up to be.

N


Enochian said:
I greatly respect TM from the viewpoint of tantric anatomy and relation to Dzogchen etc.

But when you get to treating disease.....

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, what do you think Tibetan Medicine is for?

In Xining, a huge Chinese City, we treat many illnesses allopathic medicine cannot treat at all, in modern hospitals, with the latest equipment and training. Allopathic Medicine is good for trauma, cancers, strong bacterial infections, and surgery. Beyond that, it is not good for much. It has no idea how to treat autoimmune diseases, digestive diseases, chronic diseases, etc. There are many, many illnesses that Allopathic Medicine sucks at treating. Also, Allopathic medicine is expensive, causes lots of other diseases as a consequence of treatment. I am a responsible person -- I never take patients who would be better off seeking allopathic remedies. But I get a  lot of patients whose health has been damaged by allopathic remedies and more than that -- I have treated people successfully for conditions they have never found relief from via allopathy.

Open your mind, man.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
Namdrol said:
Yes, but I am not allowed to prescribe them for "Western" illnesses. In China and India, this is not a problem. The reason that I can't is because a bunch of Capitalists have locked up what can be used in the treatment of a disease and what cannot i.e. the AMA and Big Pharma, as well as Big Insurance. And, there is legislation pending to make everything subject of FDA testing. The previous standard which we now have is that if one is going to market some herbal "supplement" based on a traditional formula all one had to do is a tox test (which itself is stupid because pharmaceuticals are often quite toxic). The new laws will require FDA testing for everything. Herbalists will have no choice but to go underground again. And this is because of Big Pharma wants to control everything, and they already control the FDA.

N

adinatha said:
You should move to Mexico City. Tibetan doctors make a KILLING! out there. I know probably only one out there. His patient is the president of Mexico. Think about it. That's big money...

Malcolm wrote:
Interesting idea -- my girlfriend was born in Mexico and speaks fluent Spanish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:


Namdrol said:
Yes, but I am not allowed to prescribe them for "Western" illnesses.

N


Enochian said:
For good reason.  And not because "capitalism" is out to get you.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, we don't agree that the reason is good. I am a trained doctor. Allopathic medicine is not all it is cracked up to be.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
***


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
adinatha said:
Here's what I just don't understand at all. How is it that like in Lord Jigten Sumgon's version of the 7 Limb Prayer "Ser Khangma," just by reading, one's achieves a very high samadhi, which is blissful and you don't feel hungry?

Malcolm wrote:
Not feeling hungary can be a symptom of a vata imbalance.

It can be a sign of faith.

It can be a sign of balanced doshas because of samadhi.

There are many reasons why one might not feel hungary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
tamdrin said:
KDL was cool for sure, and he had a very powerful blessings.. He probably got to the 3rd vision or so.. I dunno I don't think he manifested RB from what I heard although it was his wish..  Anyway I have recieved more teachings from the Drikung Kagyu this life.. and I view there approach as being equal with Nyingthig, despite what Longchempa might have to say about that.


Malcolm wrote:
KDL went though all four visions to the end. He told me this personally. Not only me, but others. He did realize rainbow body. Rainbow body, in Dzogchen, does not mean that your body disappears. This is a huge misconception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
Enochian said:
the dietary supplement manufacturer is responsible for ensuring that a dietary supplement is safe before it is marketed.
-FDA


manufacturers do not need to register their products with FDA nor get FDA approval before producing or selling dietary supplements
-FDA


Malcolm wrote:
They will soon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
Enochian said:
Hi Namdrol

I agree with you.  But the herbs themselves are available at any GNC or Vitamin Shoppe.

Namdrol said:
Some, but mostly dead, processed to death in lifeless factories.

I wouldn't give those kinds of herbs to anyone. Herbs need life, ritual and myth to be effective. Each herb has a story, each herb is living medicine.


Enochian said:
And again this is a different issue.

You can grow your own herbs legally.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but I am not allowed to prescribe them for "Western" illnesses. In China and India, this is not a problem. The reason that I can't is because a bunch of Capitalists have locked up what can be used in the treatment of a disease and what cannot i.e. the AMA and Big Pharma, as well as Big Insurance. And, there is legislation pending to make everything subject of FDA testing. The previous standard which we now have is that if one is going to market some herbal "supplement" based on a traditional formula all one had to do is a tox test (which itself is stupid because pharmaceuticals are often quite toxic). The new laws will require FDA testing for everything. Herbalists will have no choice but to go underground again. And this is because of Big Pharma wants to control everything, and they already control the FDA.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
tamdrin said:
yeah , so what! receiving the teachings is not that difficult, but accomplishing one of the paths is difficult.


Malcolm wrote:
Sean, my point is that it is quite possible that meaning of the teachings adinatha is talking about are just different terms for essentially the same principle.

Anyway, what I mentioned above is the statement of KDL. KDL was a Buddha, someone who finished all four visions and realized rainbow body.

This is a Buddha that we both knew personally.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
Enochian said:
Hi Namdrol

I agree with you.  But the herbs themselves are available at any GNC or Vitamin Shoppe.

Malcolm wrote:
Some, but mostly dead, processed to death in lifeless factories.

I wouldn't give those kinds of herbs to anyone. Herbs need life, ritual and myth to be effective. Each herb has a story, each herb is living medicine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
tamdrin said:
I pay homage to Lord Jigten Sumgon, Ratna Shri, the Peerless One, who is the incarnation of Arya Nagarjuna, and who is the embodiment of the Buddhas of the three times:  Lurigdron and Marme-ze in the past, Maitreya in the future, and Shakyamuni in the present era..

At least that is how Drikungpa's see him,
and he was born into a Nyingma family His dad was an accomplished Yamantaka practicioners.

Malcolm wrote:
That does not mean he received for example, snyin thig teachings -- which at this point were still family lineages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


adinatha said:
Well. The wisdom of omniscience certainly can't hurt. According to him, the teachings in his "Profound Inner Teachings" came after he was enlightened, he saw precisely the interdependence of all things. Then, he saw the Seven Taras and all these teachings came out.

Malcolm wrote:
That is very interesting. Well, in gsar ma, pure vision, in snying ma, gter ma.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
Namdrol said:
Sorry, I do know what I am talking about because I have to be careful about telling people what a given herb does. If I tell them that for example that X herb will reduce their cholesterol, this is, in their mind, a medical prescription.  They forbid this.

I have studied very closely the FDA regs on herbs.

N


Enochian said:
You are steering into different territory i.e. "prescribing drugs" and so forth.  You need to have a license to prescribe drugs.

I almost graduated dental school, before getting my ass thrown out.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you see, if you are an herbalist, you have to give herbs to be people to remedy illnesses. As long as all the diseases I describe are in Tibetan medical terms, there is no problem (yet, it's coming). But if for example, I say oh, you have high blood pressure, but taking this rhododendron based medicine will lower it -- then bam, busted for practicing medicine without a license.

So, we must disengage the State. The State, whether Capitalist or Socialist (two sides of same coin) is the source of all social ills. Revolutionary socialism of the 19th and 20th century was a movement of people without power speaking truth to power. When socialists took power, they immediately became corrupted by the very power they previously had been struggling with. Capital, in the deformed "socialist" states, was position and status. But in the end, States are engines of commerce and so it is that the great Socialist experiments begun in the late nineteenth centuries and early twentieth centuries ended in disaster, famine, and general slaughter, of tens of millions of innocents. The fault lies not with the basic ideals of Socialism, the fault lies within the apparatus of industrial society and the State that supports it. The blind spot of socialism is this idea that they could use the tools of the oppression of common people i.el factories, et al, to free themselves, when in fact, the whole industrial mode of production simply enslaves human beings.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:


Namdrol said:
They are lax when it comes to Big Pharm -- they are quite uptight when it comes to supplements. If you even hint that some herb actually does something, they are on your ass in a new york minute.

Enochian said:
I'm sorry Namdrol

But you don't know what you are talking about.

I have an avid weight trainer for YEARS and know all about supplements.

FDA does NOT regulate herbal supplements.  Only for anabolic steroids and ephedra.  But in fact the BETTER ephedrine is completely available at any CVS and Walgreens.

Thats why we have huge GNC and Vitamin Shoppe stores.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, I do know what I am talking about because I have to be careful about telling people what a given herb does. If I tell them that for example that X herb will reduce their cholesterol, this is, in their mind, a medical prescription.  They forbid this.

I have studied very closely the FDA regs on herbs.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


adinatha said:
Here we must disagree.

Namdrol said:
You are entitled to disagree with Garab Dorje, Longchenpa, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu if you like.

Longchenpa terms it chulen of cittavāyu (rlung sems). This is taught in the sgra thal gyur.

As I said, it seems your view of these things is very influenced by your experience in Drikung. I have many Drikung teachers, but primarily for Yangzab.

adinatha said:
It's not me. It's Lord Jigten Sumgon. He disagrees.

Malcolm wrote:
He can disagree if he wants -- if he wants to call samadhi "chulen" it is fine by me. What is more likely the case is that there is just a different emphasis, different terminology. I don't think that Jigten Sumgon was a recipient of many Dzogchen teachings. But I am not completely sure.

Things like qualities of food are explained very well in Ayurveda and so on. He was unlikely to have had much exposure to the Four Tantras tradition of Tibetan Medicine, because at that point is was still a family lineage in the Yuthok clan. He was a little younger than Yuthok. Tibetan Medicine originally was very secret, and is connected with Dzogchen as well. But like any educated Lama of his day, he certainly had access to various medical traditions and chulen traditions coming from India like the Amrita siddhi tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
Enochian said:
Then how come America doesn't have all this nonsense the Europeans have to put up with?

gregkavarnos said:
The US doesn't have the FDA?

Enochian said:
They don't regulate supplements.

And if you know anything about the FDA, they are EXTREMELY lax.


Malcolm wrote:
They are lax when it comes to Big Pharm -- they are quite uptight when it comes to supplements. If you even hint that some herb actually does something, they are on your ass in a new york minute.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
Namdrol said:
Ah....this is being rolled through the EU by major corporations. Capitalism is the problem here, not socialism. What you have not figured out, yet, Enochian, is that Capitalists use Socialism in order to keep their pet skilled labor pool content and docile while they rape the rest of the world.


Enochian said:
Then how come America doesn't have all this nonsense the Europeans have to put up with?

America is also capitalist

Malcolm wrote:
America also uses Socialist policies to keep people in line. And they give free handouts to corporations to the tune of trillions of dollars.



Enochian said:
EU has MUCH tougher standards for everything.  Its like a nanny state.  They even make Microsoft bundle alternative web browsers with Windows in the EU.  Its stupid.

Malcolm wrote:
That has much more to do with the European character and much less to do with Socialism than you might imagine.



Enochian said:
P.S.  I am again shocked you rail against capitalism.  Would you as a tibetan buddhist like to move to China?

Malcolm wrote:
I have been in China for extended periods of time. People in China actually have a lot more freedom than you might think. Yes, they cannot speak out against Govt. But in many ways, people in China have a lot more freedom than we do in US, as surprising as that sounds. I was surprised. Unfortunately for the Chinese, they are moving in the direction of creating a federal style government modeled on ours. Why? because it makes it easier to collaborate with large corporations.

Anyway, your simplistic cold war rhetoric betrays a lack of study of sources in leftwing literature. As for myself, I have read Hayek, Nozak, etc., a great deal of conservative writing. They are romantics, as are you --thinking that an unthinking beast like Capitalism won't eat their children. It will. And it will eat yours.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
In 3 days, the EU will ban much of herbal medicine, pressing more of us to take pharmaceutical drugs that drive the profits of big Pharma.

The EU Directive erects high barriers to any herbal remedy that hasn't been on the market for 30 years -- including virtually all Chinese, Ayurvedic, and African traditional medicine. It's a draconian move that helps drug companies and ignores thousands of years of medical knowledge.

We need a massive outcry against this. Together, our voices can press the EU Commission to fix the directive, push our national governments to refuse to implement it, and give legitimacy to a legal case before the courts. Sign on the right, then forward this campaign to everyone, and let's get to 1 million voices to save herbal medicine:

To sign the petition follow this link
https://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_herbal_medicine_ban/?cl=1042047785&v=8982 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Enochian said:
HI Greg,

Now do you see why socialism sucks?


Malcolm wrote:
Ah....this is being rolled through the EU by major corporations. Capitalism is the problem here, not socialism. What you have not figured out, yet, Enochian, is that Capitalists use Socialism in order to keep their pet skilled labor pool content and docile while they rape the rest of the world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


adinatha said:
Here we must disagree.

Malcolm wrote:
You are entitled to disagree with Garab Dorje, Longchenpa, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu if you like.

Longchenpa terms it chulen of cittavāyu (rlung sems). This is taught in the sgra thal gyur.

As I said, it seems your view of these things is very influenced by your experience in Drikung. I have many Drikung teachers, but primarily for Yangzab.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Namdrol said:
it is important because in order to achieve rainbow body one must purify the body through rasāyana. For example, prior to attaining rainbow body, Ngala Pema Dudul was living merely off of essence of vāyu in addition to drinking a little water for the last three or four years of his life.

The practice of chulen is most important in Dzogchen.

adinatha said:
That is nirmanakaya or sambhogakaya chulen, right? There is chulen of god and naga realms, and chulen of space, as well. Then there is dharmakaya chulen. Ati is dharmakaya chulen, isn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
No, living off the essence of vāyu is dharmakāya chulen. I.e. you are taking the pure five elements directly from breath.

Chulen of space is what we are taking about since space is the basis of the other four elements. It means the same thing. But in order to so this in a pure way one must build up through nirmanakāya and sambhogakāya chulen, respectively eating a sattvic diet combined with pills, in the second eating only pills, and perhaps flowers -- there are variations.

This chulen of space is the an important supporting condition of body of light realization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2011 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Namdrol said:
Okay so the bliss of ojas, a physical bliss, is a facsimile of the blisses that are inherent within rigpa. So the tantric process is like familiarizing yourself with mother of pearl so that when you see a real pearl you can understand "pearl." Is that about right?
Yes, that is an adequate analogy. But as I indicated elsewhere, ojas is something important, also is important to understand in terms achieving rainbow body, etc.

adinatha said:
I don't understand this. Is it that it is important to cultivate ojas to achieve rainbow body? Or is it that during the process of effortless nyingthig, ojas naturally percolates. For example, the practice of Tregcho/Togal, profound bliss arises, but not because of volitional sadhana.

Malcolm wrote:
it is important because in order to achieve rainbow body one must purify the body through rasāyana. For example, prior to attaining rainbow body, Ngala Pema Dudul was living merely off of essence of vāyu in addition to drinking a little water for the last three or four years of his life.

The practice of chulen is most important in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Namdrol said:
So, bliss in Guru yoga is just a vehicle. In my own practice it is just not an important feature. Bliss is just an experience. But the total bliss described as part of the result, is merely another what of describing a state which is free from all impure conditions -- sort of like saying "healthy" because one is not sick.

Any, as you know there are four stages of bliss i.e. the three relative bliss — bliss, supreme bliss, the bliss of being free of bliss; and beyond all, innate bliss. And these four get divided up in sixteen etc., since there is a relationship with the sixteen moments of the path of seeing.

The trio of bliss, clarity and non-conceptuality are experiences that need to be recognized so that they do not serve as a basis for deviation.

N

adinatha said:
Okay so the bliss of ojas, a physical bliss, is a facsimile of the blisses that are inherent within rigpa. So the tantric process is like familiarizing yourself with mother of pearl so that when you see a real pearl you can understand "pearl." Is that about right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is an adequate analogy. But as I indicated elsewhere, ojas is something important, also is important to understand in terms achieving rainbow body, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
adinatha said:
Averring your mind to polemical risk assessments generates the cause of their fruition.

Malcolm wrote:
Not worried about myself. It is others who I care about. We cannot use Dzogchen teachings to be indifferent, I think you will agree.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Ojas
Content:
rai said:
I read on some Ayurveda forum that the best way to restore ojas is to restrain from sex for some time or have a longer breaks between. Is that correct according to Tibetan Medicine? I believe there is substitute to ojas in TM?

Thank you


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is correct. Actually, there is more to it than that. Ojas is the final product of digesting food. So, for this reason one needs to periodically do cleanses, and engage in the practice of rasāyana. This is more effective than mere celibacy because you are cleansing the digestive channels and tract, increasing your ability to absorb rasa, the broken down food, and then having a fairly pure diet where one is mainly relying on essence foods such as ghee and honey, with a sattvic diet.

The whole point of Ayurveda and Tibetan Medicine is to refine and purify ojas in the body for longevity etc. In Tibetan the term ojas is translated as "mdangs".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
***


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
adinatha said:
This is part of a global plan. But I have serious doubts it will really be enforced. The market for herbals and supplements is HUGE. Even cops use the stuff. No one leaves money on the table. Big Herbal will come back swinging, you can count on it.


Malcolm wrote:
Big Herbal, in my opinion as a doctor of Tibetan Medicine, is just another phace of Big Pharma.

Resist, my brothers and sisters.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Namdrol said:
In reality, the three channels meet in each of these five (or six) locations in the body, according to the presentation I gave above from Kalackara. This simply means you will find clusters of arteries, veins and nerves at these locations in the body. Again, to restate, when we are doing deity yoga, our bodies are conceived to be hollow -- thus we visualize the channels in various ways depending on what system we are practicing. Hence, according Menpa Tenzin, et al, our visualization does not correspond with the manner in which the three channels actually exist in the body, and more importantly, it does not need to.

The reasons behind this again become very clear when one studies embryology according to Tibetan Medicine, Kalacakra, or Dzogchen Nyinthig. A very good book on this subject has been published by Francis Garret.

adinatha said:
That was very clear and descriptive. Thank you. I'm very interested in the highlighted portion. Can you please explain that just a bit more. Why do our visualizations not need to correspond to the way these actual exist in the body?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is because our visualization of our bodies as deities also does not correspond to our bodies in a real sense either. For example, when we visualize ourselves as Vajrasattva, in Vajrasattvas body there is no heart, no lungs, no liver, spleen/pancreas or kidney, no stomach, intestines, gall bladder, urinary bladder, ovaries or seminal vesicle, etc.

We primarily use the three channels as a visualization guide for the prāṇa vāyu in our bodies that we breath in. For example, we use the visualization of the lower ends of the three channels to focus our attention below the belly, for example -- through muscular contraction of the mulabandha and the uddiyāna bandhas we collect and force vāyu into arterial system and cause it to supersaturate our cells, capillaries, etc. with vāyu and ojas (the real bodhicitta element within our body) that it pumps. Simultaneously, our heart rate slows, and this means for a time not only is our consciousness "slowing down" i.e. because the karma vāyus are now suspended, but the venous blood is returning less impurities into the blood stream temporarily while the ojas is flushing and restoring the cells. This is why Khumbaka, for example, is the hidden secret to longevity in both Hatha Yoga of the Nathas, and in Vajrayāna. Through the two lower locks, we slow blood flow into the vena cava, saturate blood with prāṇa vāyu and send it into the arteries, etc. Ojas itself has two stores within the body -- the heart and also the brain. This is why we do the visualization of blazing and dripping, etc.

This is just a rough approximation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
PS And remember to keep a smile on your lips and a song in your heart as you smash the state!

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think smashing is going to do much good. Collective disengagement is more effective, I am thinking. And more conducive to singing and dancing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Namdrol said:
Again, to restate, when we are doing deity yoga, our bodies are conceived to be hollow -- thus we visualize the channels in various ways depending on what system we are practicing. Hence, according Menpa Tenzin, et al, our visualization does not correspond with the manner in which the three channels actually exist in the body, and more importantly, it does not need to.

mr. gordo said:
Hi Namdrol,

If one is visualizing the channels incorrectly, then is this not a problem?  Would this be an issue that would affect one's practice?

Malcolm wrote:
In Sakya, for example, they place great emphasis on visualizing the channels very precisely. In Dzogchen, according to the Khandro Nyinthig, it is enough to have an idea of the channels. The same is true for deity yoga and the same difference applies.

However, you must apply the method of the system you are practicing. So for example, of you are practicing Naro Khachö it is considered very important to have a very precise visualization, very clear, very vivid. You apply the method of the school which you are following at any given time for any given practice.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:


adinatha said:
1. All prior scriptures are not first person buddha perspective; they are deluded perspective. 2. I can't violate any samaya, because I have no samaya to keep, other than the nature of mind which is impossible to break. I'm talking about the Apex, not some method or routine from the standpoint of a someone with distorted vision. I'm sorry if I sound gruff: I don't want the inner secret to be lost or diluted. Total freedom is a right, but still a right one has to earn by letting everything go, even dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Longchepa also writes in the Ocean of Liberation from the Lama Yangthig:

"Now then, although there is nothing to damage or transgress, the natural great perfection being beyond a boundary to protect, since it is necessary for yogins on the path of practice to abide in commitments, in order to purify one’s continuum there are the three root commitments.There are twenty five branch commitments as well i.e. what to understand, what not to avoid,what to adopt, how to act, what to accomplish which are taught in the great tantras. The branch comittments are taught as mere assistants for protecting the root commitments since they possess accepting and rejecting, effort and practice."

This itself is a commentary on the more elaborate commentary concerning Dzogchen samaya in the Vima sNying thig, the Analysis of Samaya. It says:

"If one dwells in the samayas of the body, it will not be difficult to obtain the unchanging body vajra of all the buddas. If one dwells in the samayas of the voice, it will not be difficult to obtain the unchanging speech vajra of all the buddas. If one dwells in the samayas of the mind, it will not be difficult to obtain the unchanging mind vajra of all the buddas."

As for Greg's point, Longchenpa here states that among the 27 root commitments (9*3):

"The outer of the inner [is not to ridicule] speaking the words of the teachings..."

This certainly means that while one may not find a given passage relevant to one's own condition, one should not hubristically dismiss the teachings of the Buddha as if they are as you put it "...from a deluded perspective." All Buddhist teachings are for deluded people, yes, even all Dzogchen texts. From that perspective, even Dzogchen tantras are from a deluded perspective. This is not to say of course there are not teachings for people of greater and lesser delusion. This is not to say that we need to follow Nikaya teachings as if they are of the same value as Dzogchen teachings, etc. But that depends on the practitioner. If someone does not have transmission, than all Dzogchen texts are meaningless aside from being used as bhakti objects.

Undeluded people do not need teachings of any kind. They also are in great or total samaya, always. total samaya is just another word for "dzogchen", mahāsaṃdhi or santimāha in the lanuage of Oḍḍiyāna.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
Namdrol said:
Educate yourself -- grow your own, learn how to diagnose diseases, especially chronic diseases. I have been thinking about a conversation we had sometime ago. There is no hope at all in States. So, we must resist Leviathan. Becoming self-sufficient in terms of medicine and food is the first step.

gregkavarnos said:
I already grow and gather most of my herbs.  In the market area of the town there are assorted old guys selling bunches of freshly cut medicinal herbs. I have spent some time researching traditional local usage of many plants and have used them medicinally.  I wish I had more time to spend with people my parents age, they have an amazing knowledge of local medicinal and edible plants.  A twenty minute walk with my mother through my olive groves was an educational experience, she could pick out various edible plants that all looked merely like green leafy grassy plants to me.  The problem is not for rural dwellers like myself that can take a short walk in the surrounding hills and mountains and gather whatever they need, the problem is for all the city dwellers, especially as go further into northern Europe where the climate is not conducive to the growth of many herbs.  And then of course there are medicinal plants that have to be imported.

Now I am not sure if the bans are only on pre-prepared herbal pills and medicines, many of which are prepared by large pharmaceutical companies anyway, or on the herbs themselves.  The good thing about a disorganised and corrupt place like Greece is that it is easy to flout and bypass European laws AND many times the Greek state refuses to or is incapable of enforcing those laws anyway.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is easier to get seeds and grow things than import whole plants.

You should make a project, document their knowledge.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: EU to Ban Herbal Medicines
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
In 3 days, the EU will ban much of herbal medicine, pressing more of us to take pharmaceutical drugs that drive the profits of big Pharma.

The EU Directive erects high barriers to any herbal remedy that hasn't been on the market for 30 years -- including virtually all Chinese, Ayurvedic, and African traditional medicine. It's a draconian move that helps drug companies and ignores thousands of years of medical knowledge.

We need a massive outcry against this. Together, our voices can press the EU Commission to fix the directive, push our national governments to refuse to implement it, and give legitimacy to a legal case before the courts. Sign on the right, then forward this campaign to everyone, and let's get to 1 million voices to save herbal medicine:

To sign the petition follow this link
https://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_herbal_medicine_ban/?cl=1042047785&v=8982 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
Educate yourself -- grow your own, learn how to diagnose diseases, especially chronic diseases. I have been thinking about a conversation we had sometime ago. There is no hope at all in States. So, we must resist Leviathan. Becoming self-sufficient in terms of medicine and food is the first step.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
adinatha said:
Something doesn't make sense to me. What is a channel exactly? Air goes into the lungs, the oxygen is taken into blood stream. The yogic method of channels and winds uses channels that are not lungs or blood vessels. How the three channels meet at the base of the body is not connected to a cavity or passage where gas could travel.

Malcolm wrote:
A channel is a channel: veins, arteries and nerves. You can add to this the lymphatic system, though they are considered to act as a support for bring moisture to the nervous system among their other functions.

A cakra in this view is any place in the body where there are clusters of arteries, veins and nerves. You can readily see five such clusters in the body. There are many more.

The channels we visualize are just a method -- why? because when we are visualizing ourselves as a deity, we visualize our bodies as completely hollow, made of light, with no internal organs.

The explicitly stated point of view of Tibetan Medicine is that the avadhūtī is all channels of air i.e. arteries; the rasanā is all channels of fire i.e. the blood vessels, and the lalanā all channels of water i.e. the nerves in the body. This is detailed at length by Zurkhar Lodo Gyalpo, is based primarily on the understanding of the anatomy of the body indicated by the Third Karmapa in his Zabmo Nangdon and reinforced by Desrid Sangye Gyatso. The latter two were both great Dzogchen masters as well though, Zurkharwa was not.

For example, the Kagyu Historian, Thubten Phunstog, has written an interesting commentaries on Tibetan Medicine, Six Yogas of Naropa, and well as Zabmo Nangdon. He makes the case that if channels are not physical structures in the body, then practices like gtum mo would have no effect. Then there is the very interesting doctor in Golok, Menpa Tenzin, who wrote a book based on doing many years of dissection of cadavers which contain very detailed drawings of his research. One may think this unnecessary given Netter's Anatomy and so on, but it is interesting -- and his dissections were guided from a Tibetan Medical perspective. He really explained this principle to us very well when we are interning in Xining. He is a disciple of Khenpo Munsel and In Tibet, he is a well respected Dzogchen master.

In reality, the three channels meet in each of these five (or six) locations in the body, according to the presentation I gave above from Kalackara. This simply means you will find clusters of arteries, veins and nerves at these locations in the body. Again, to restate, when we are doing deity yoga, our bodies are conceived to be hollow -- thus we visualize the channels in various ways depending on what system we are practicing. Hence, according Menpa Tenzin, et al, our visualization does not correspond with the manner in which the three channels actually exist in the body, and more importantly, it does not need to.

The reasons behind this again become very clear when one studies embryology according to Tibetan Medicine, Kalacakra, or Dzogchen Nyinthig. A very good book on this subject has been published by Francis Garret.

However, again, in the West, our idea of ṇāḍis has been very influenced by the acupuncture idea of "meridians" as well as Hindu ideas of cakras and ṇāḍis. The Upanishadic idea of cakras and ṇāḍis is related to the concept of pañcakośa originating in the Taittiriya Upanisha  (which makes this idea a bit older than the Buddha's teaching), where they are explicitly connected with the prāṇamayakośa. On the other hand, the Upanishads are very important to understand, because they contain many ideas and concepts which reappear in altered form (i.e. revised in accordance with Buddha ideas) in Vajrayāna, Ayurveda/Tibetan Medicine, and even in Dzogchen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 11:04 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Namdrol said:
You don't feel that the five elements taught by the Buddha can be applied below the atomic level, or even at the atomic level.

Sherab said:
Despite my posts here and elsewhere, you have not got what I thought.  Therefore it is better for us to leave it as it is.


Malcolm wrote:
After a certain point, one must assume if one is not getting one's point across, either the other person is hopelessly stupid (which I am not), or that one is not explaining one's point clearly (which seems to be the case).

Incidentally, I understand that people trained in hard sciences would find it very difficult to take my point of view seriously re: the above.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 10:33 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Namdrol said:
You are missing the basic point of what I am saying.

Sherab said:
And you have missed mine.  Let's just leave it as it is.


Malcolm wrote:
No, I understood your point very clearly. You don't feel that the five elements taught by the Buddha can be applied below the atomic level, or even at the atomic level. You feel my assertion that they can points to a lack of understanding physics on my part.

I understood your point. I simply don't agree with you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: Elements
Content:
Sherab said:
Because of that, he is not able to see that words, such as solidity, motility etc, that are used to represent the Buddhist elements cannot possibly carry the same meaning when they are used in the context of modern science.


Malcolm wrote:
I don't presume that they would.

You are missing the basic point of what I am saying. What I am saying is that if it is mental or material in any sense it is subsumed under the categories outlined by the Buddha. The description of the four elements describe all material states.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 9:26 AM
Title: Re: Five-Long Life Sisters and Tseringma
Content:
adinatha said:
Milarepa tamed them...

oh what's the use.


Namdrol said:
You are basing this on a biography that was written five hundred years after the fact.

adinatha said:
So let me get this straight. The Nyingmpa texts are reliable and the Kagyu texts are not.

Malcolm wrote:
Tsang Nyong Heruka's bio of Mila is an inspired piece of historical fiction based on the many oral traditions he collected travelling all over the Himalayan regions where Milarepa wandered. While I have no doubt that Mila adopted the Tsheringma sisters as guardians since the presence of the five Tseringma sisters as guardians in the Kagyu school is well attested, I don't see any reason to accept Tsang Nyon's narratives at face value.

Further, the permission ritual of Tseringma in the Kagyu sNgags mDzod clearly explains how Padmasambhava bound Tseringma under the secret name "Vajrasamantabhadri", and later how in particular Tseringma was made a specific guardian of Kagyu school by Milarepa.

As I read the account given in this permission ritual, Tseringma was testing Milarepa's yogic ability.

Finally, there is no contradiction between stating, for example, "...among non-human disciples, Tseringma was Milarepa's chief student" and understanding that the twelve tenma were Dzogchen guardians from the beginning.

Generally, however, for Dzogchen, among the twelve Tenma, Dorje Yudronma is regarded as more important. For the Kagyus, Tseringma is more important.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 8:18 AM
Title: Re: Five-Long Life Sisters and Tseringma
Content:
adinatha said:
Milarepa tamed them...

oh what's the use.


Malcolm wrote:
You are basing this on a biography that was written five hundred years after the fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: Five-Long Life Sisters and Tseringma
Content:
adinatha said:
Oh now I remember. The Mila story says they were almost tamed by Padmasambhava but he didn't give them deep dharma teachings so they went back to being bad. Then, they badgered Mila and he gave them teachings that finally turned them into dharma beings. Is that about right?

Namdrol said:
The twelve Tenma are protectors of the Dzogchen teachings.

So that detail is not correct.

adinatha said:
This based on your scholarship that the Mila songs are what a lie? Oh I forget everything written in a Dzogchen text is true, everything else is a lie.

Malcolm wrote:
The twelve tenma have been protectors of Dzogchen teachings since Padmasambhava tamed them and entrusted them with various cycles of Dzogchen teachings that are under their care.

Whether you choose to accept this or not is of little concern to me.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 6:54 AM
Title: Re: Five-Long Life Sisters and Tseringma
Content:
adinatha said:
Oh now I remember. The Mila story says they were almost tamed by Padmasambhava but he didn't give them deep dharma teachings so they went back to being bad. Then, they badgered Mila and he gave them teachings that finally turned them into dharma beings. Is that about right?

Malcolm wrote:
The twelve Tenma are protectors of the Dzogchen teachings.

So that detail is not correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 6:36 AM
Title: Re: Five-Long Life Sisters and Tseringma
Content:
adinatha said:
Was wondering if anyone knows the history of how the Five Long Life Sisters joined with Nyingmapa. I'm only familiar with how they became disciples of Milarepa.


Malcolm wrote:
Mmmmmm, they were tamed by Padmsambhava?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
adinatha said:
That's fine. Again, I take the unique position that models are useless.


Malcolm wrote:
Sadadhātu is the teaching of the Buddha.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
adinatha said:
Sure. My point was to leave aside all levels except "unsurpassed utterly secret" level. Longchen Nyingthig is the Nyingthig of the Nyingthigs, because Longchenpa gathered all the Nyingthig transmissions and took the essence.

Malcolm wrote:
Many other masters have done this as well. Jigme Lingpa simply is one of the most famous due mostly to his recent appearance and the fame of some of his disciples and recognized incarnations.

Other transmissions, for example, Dudjom Lingpa's Gnas lugs rang byung are every bit as profound as anything in Klong chen snying thig.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:


adinatha said:
Okay. There are the three series of Ati right?  Then, in the third, there are also three.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the upadeshas series is divided into four cycles: outer, inner, secret and unsurpassed utterly secret.

adinatha said:
Longchen Nyingthig is the highest.

Malcolm wrote:
Parts of klong chen snyin thig are connected with the unsurpassed utterly secret cycle. Most of klong chen snying thig is mahāyoga sadhanas.

adinatha said:
This is how it is explained at Ontrul Tenpa'i Wangchuk's monastery in Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo explains that among snying thig teachings, the dgongs pa zang thal is the most profound.

Khyentse's Chetsun Nyingthig cycle declares "“E ma, e ma. In the future, in later times, yogins practicing the heart of the heart essence wishing liberation at this time should only meditate on me, Chetsun Simhesvara."

Yeshe Lama is basically a commentary on the Lama Yangthig. Wonderful, to be sure.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
adinatha said:
I get it. You are reasoning from the tantras.  I understand how the dzogchen tantras explain wisdoms correspond to lights and lights to elements. The last statement you made is a conclusion drawn from these premises. I'm saying that science will laugh.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't care if scientists laugh -- their knowledge is as the coarsest, grossest level.



adinatha said:
I've devised an explanatory and experiential model that can deal with today's facts. I see why one would reason as you do, because there is evidence of physical bodies dissolving, and the five lights very clearly do arise to Atiyoga practitioner. The lights are a primordial existence and have no causal basis. The elements arise due to deluded mind of grasping at truth. That's just a why, not a how. How is what I said, and it closes the circle between yesterday and today.

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot separate the pure sadhadhatu (wisdom and five lights) from the impure sadadhātu (consciousness and five elements). The difference is only vidyā or avidyā.

The sadadhātu are a model that is capable of encompassing any state of matter or mind, no matter how subtle or gross, macro, micro, nano, subatomic, etc.

It is inconsistent to say that the five elements function at the macro level of matter and are irrelevant at the subatomic level. The five elements are properties of all matter, period. The medicine tantra states:

"No formation without earth, no cohesion without water, no maturation without fire, no development without air, and no room for development without space."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


adinatha said:
I will answer myself and refute you. Solidity in matter is an illusion caused by the spinning an electron, which creates an energetic cloud, and thus the mere appearance of solidity. There is no solidity in fact. It is just a charge. A charge is just a positive or negative. An electron is not technically a particle. So there is no atomic solidity.

At the level of subatomic particles, the are spins and lower than that waves. Not a wave in the motion sense. But a wave in the geometric sense. One can never detect motion and position simultaneously at this level.  Again, no solidity. There is also no mass. Quantum people have no idea what accounts for mass. All they have are mathematical models.

Without motion, solidity or mass, the whole phenomenal world collapses. So there is certainly no possibility of observing liquidity, gaseousness or heat. At this level even space is not space. It all converges with information: constants and probabilities.

What does remain are charges: Positive (attracting), negative (repelling) and neither (neutral). These do have a correspondence with the three poisons. To my satisfaction, this here provides perfect explanatory and experiential understanding of why consciousness arises as an interdependence of these three things, why there is no such thing as a universal consciousness, and why there is liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
The five elements are inherent in consciousness; consciousness is inherent in the five elements. There are no levels of subatomic anything which exist outside the sadadhātu, consciousness, space, air, fire, water and earth.

If you want to go further, we could discuss how these gross expressions of the sadadhātu have their corollaries in terms of wisdom and the five lights.

Now you can see that even the subatomic level must have the five elements in order to be material, physical (rūpena).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Will said:
Will: New Age is full of hooey - but in the case of cosmic or universal prana notion - they  are innocent.  The Upanishads taught it - not saying they are right, just a universal prana teaching goes way, way back.
Namdrol: It depends on whether you take the Brihadaryanka as  allegorical (it is) or literally.
So the Prasna http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/prasna.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and the Chandogya are also allegorical?

Fiddlesticks - Swamis teach cosmic, universal prana all the time.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I know the Prasna. One it is a late Upanishad. Second, it is still metaphorical. It is not prāṇa in the sense you take it to mean.

You have to understand, that for Ancient Indians who wrote the upanishads, the world was alive. The sun was a living being, but not the moon. It is very complicated.

But the ancient Indian idea of prāṇa was nothing like the new age idea people have now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: Brain Surgery in Ancient Tibet
Content:


kirtu said:
But none exists in traditional Chinese medicine or it was lost.  So the Maya, Aztecs, maybe Incas and Indians had surgery?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Never existed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Will said:
N: The idea that prāṇa is some universal life force is exactly the new age idea that I am criticizing.
I get it - the non-universal notion - not sure I agree yet.  Will have to look again at the Chi of China & Prana of Indian thought for support for non-universal notion.  Prana is in the Sun for example, where there is no air or breath.
New Age is full of hooey - but in the case of cosmic or universal prana notion - they  are innocent.  The Upanishads taught it - not saying they are right, just a universal prana teaching goes way, way back.


Malcolm wrote:
It depends on whether you take the Brihadaryanka as allegorical (it is) or literally.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


cloudburst said:
Your claim that the inner winds are the same as the outer winds has not been borne out, despite various lines of argument. That is my contention.

Malcolm wrote:
My claim is that the winds in the body are based on the process of respiration. I never asserted that they do not undergo change and refinement in the body, of course they do. The function of the lungs is to bring air into body and pass it into the channels, refining it along the way. This vāyu, like any other of the four elements that are taken up by the body, undergoes a process of digestion. Breath is a kind of food. This is why we have rasāyanas of air, which involve prāṇayāma practices to extract the rasa of the vāyu directly and so on.

Anyway, this understanding comes from Tibetan Medicine. For example, one of my teachers, Tamdrin Gyal from Amdo, when explaining topics from Rangjung Dorje's famed Zabmo Nangdon to us asserted that while the vāyu/vatta of the body comes from external element of air conducted into the body through breathing, the air element outside the of body does not possess all seven characteristics of vāyu present in the body i.e, rough, light, cold, motile, subtle and hard.

When we talk about the five elements in the body, we always refer to them as the five refined elements. But, for example, Padmsambhava is very clear that the five refined elements in the body come from the five gross elements upon which we depend for life.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Namdrol said:
This is nothing mysterious. Unfortunately, Buddhists have been unwittingly influenced by new age concepts about channels, cakras and so on.

gregkavarnos said:
Bloody long haired hippy new agers!

Malcolm wrote:
Greg -- I am not saying that there there are no cakra and channels and so on -- of course there are.

What I am saying is that the way Western Buddhists relate to these things has been very much filtered through a new age lens. Part of the reason for this is that in Tibet, there is an understanding of physical anatomy which supports how so called "tantric anatomy" is understood. These kinds of issues are discussed in great detail in Tibetan medicine.

But we lack this background, culturally speaking. So we come up with many strange ideas.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2011 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Will said:
N: The idea that prāṇa is some universal life force is exactly the new age idea that I am criticizing.
I get it - the non-universal notion - not sure I agree yet.  Will have to look again at the Chi of China & Prana of Indian thought for support for non-universal notion.  Prana is in the Sun for example, where there is no air or breath.

Malcolm wrote:
Do you have a citation for this?

The meaning of prāṇa is "life". If there life in the sun?

The Vajramālā states very plainly:

The characteristic of the the element of air (vāyu)
is the vāyu (air) pervading the six cakras,
always present in the dharmacakra,
called prāṇa since it pervades migrating beings"

And:

The wheel of vāyu is explained to be prāṇa.

And apropos of the Kalacakra citation in the last post it states:

Depending on upper or lower,
the major vāyus, prāṇa and apana are located.

Prāṇa vāyu is furthere defined in this text:

From the traces of the all-basis consciousness
arises the stream of consciousness;
the affliction [consciousness] is the prāṇa vāyu.

So at least in Buddhist texts these things are very precisely defined.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


cloudburst said:
If you read the discussion carefully, you will see that you are precisely making my point here, please direct this comment to Namdrol.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a given. Non-controversial. Within the body there are five elemental vāyus. All material phenomena contain all four elements in some proportion. I was under the impression I was not talking to Buddhist Kindegardeners where every detail has to spelled out in order to prevent someone from having an objection.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


cloudburst said:
so it is your claim that you actually fart out your downward-voiding wind? Interesting proposition. What happens when you ejaculate, also caused by the downward-voiding wind?

Namdrol said:
Not my claim -- clearly explained in Kalacakra, etc. And yes, ejaculation, urination, menstruation, happen because of the apana vāyu (thur sel rlung)

It seems you are overly literal when claiming that there is no difference between inner and outer wind.
No, I am just well trained in both Vajrayāna (Lamdre, Dzogchen) and Tibetan medicine.

N

cloudburst said:
So the Kalachakra Tantra explains that when you fart, you expel your downward-voiding wind? Would you care to cite a few lines?

Also, I can see how you may have misunderstood my question above. I was asking... since ejaculation (and of course urination etc) are caused by the dvw, what are you proposing in these cases? In the case of flatulence, you explain that the dvw moves downward and leaves the body. What is your proposition with respect to any of the other eliminations through lower doors, as they are not composed of air?

Of course they "happen becasue of the" dvw, but your claim that the dvw is actually the air that moves when we are flatulent is a misleading example as it does not mapo on to any other function of the dvw. My question is: how to explain in the case of movement that is not physical air, but rather liquid, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
We are not communicating well.

That flatus is the downward voiding wind is a fact. The apana-vāyu is also responsible for moving liquids out of the body such as sperm, urine and so forth, as well as solids such as feces. It's location in the body is the pelvic region.

There is a passage in the Kalacakra that describes the anus as being the lower end of the central channel. The famous Doctor Zurkar Lodo Gyalpo explains the following in his "Oral Advice of the Grandfathers",  his commentary on the formation of the body chapter in the Explanatory Medicine Tantra

This verse (from the Explanatory Tantra) "The channels of formation divide into three from the navel" demonstrates the lalanā, rasanā and the lower end of the avadhūtī. The channel that creates kapha, etc., is the lalanā through which the element of water moves. The channel that creates blood and so on is the rasanā through which the element of fire moves. The channel that creates vāyu and so on is the lower part of the avadhūti. The lower ends of the rasanā and lalanā are demonstrated through implication. These three tips both below and above the navel are applied according to the intention of the Shri Kalacakra i.e. the Adibuddha states:

Those have three tips below,
likewise, three tips above. 
The tip of Rahu is present in the center,
the tip of Surya is on the right,
the tip of Candra is on the left. 
The vāyus of water, fire and space
move feces, urine, and sukra
through the bottom of the right, left, and central [channels].
The channels interlaced like a chain
are the three pathways of the prāṇa and the apaṇa.

The great commentary states "In terms of the the so called 'channel interlaced into a chain which runs to the location of amrita', the amritaṇāḍī is in forehead. "Moving there" is moving into the location of amrita i.e. the lalanā, the rasanā, and the avadhūtī. Since those are interlaced like a chain, having made three pathways between the navel and the heart, once again they intersect in the center of the heart in the center of the avadhūtī. The lalanā and the rasanā move to the right and left sides. After that, between the heart and the throat, they make three paths. In the same way they are three paths between the throat and the forehead, and likewise between the forehead and crown. Having made three paths four times, the lalanā ends in twelve different locations other from the left nostril. The rasanā from the right (nostril). The avadhūtī leaves simultaneously from both nostrils. Likewise, having made three paths below the navel and again below the secret cakra, between feces and urine moving from the right and the left, and in the center of the secret lotus there is the conch nāḍī. Below the conch nāḍī, the mahāmalā (great waste i.e. rectum) channel moves from the center. From penis or the vagina, the urine channel moves from the left, and the seminal channelfrom right."


Incidentally, in the Blue Beryl, Desri Sangye Gyatso reproduces the above passage more or less in its entirety without comment.

I should think the meaning of all of this is rather clear.

There are three vāyus that are subsets of the apana vāyu. The apāna vāyu in general governs the lower ends of the three channels. The three lower channels are the rectum i.e. the lower end of the central channel; the urinary tract i.e. the lower end of the lalanā, and the channel which emits semen or ovum i..e the lower end of the rasanā channel.

When someone has an excess of apana vāyu, they fart, or have diarrhea, etc. There are many disorders they have have connected with the three lower passages. We take wind in, some of it is expelled from the lower end of the body as flatus.

However, I will allow that my understanding of many tantric topics has been altered considerably through my studies of Tibetan medicine.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Brain Surgery in Ancient Tibet
Content:
Astus said:
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=7,10079,0,0,1,0

"Brain surgery was practiced by doctors at least 2,900 years ago, a specialist on Tibetan culture and literature said Wednesday after four decades of research on the Tibetan Tripitaka, an ancient encyclopedia."

Does anyone have some background information about the reliability of this claim?


Malcolm wrote:
This is quite a misleading heading -- the brain surgery in question would have been in Ancient India.

There is a tradition of surgery in Ayurveda.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


Will said:
But prana could be with or within water or deep in the earth or on Mars; it need not be confined only to the air on the surface of this planet?  As for slight respiration through the skin; what about yogis buried for 2 or 3 months, surely they would have used up all the air-prana by then.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Will,

There is no "prāṇa" out there in genera separate from the vāyu element. Prāṇa is just a name for the vāyu that supports life in the body of a sentient being.

The idea that prāṇa is some universal life force is exactly the new age idea that I am criticizing.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 7:34 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


adinatha said:
It doesn't hold up in subatomic land.

Namdrol said:
Of course it does.

adinatha said:
How? ...



Malcolm wrote:
Because there is motility, solidity, heat, and moisture (cohesion) even at these levels of observation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 10:13 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


adinatha said:
It doesn't hold up in subatomic land.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it does.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 10:11 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Will said:
Namdrol: prāṇa is a vāyu i.e. prāṇa vāyu (srog dzin rlung) aka "the life sustaining wind". This comes from our breath and no where else.


Not sure about the prana source being only breath.  That would mean a deep samadhi state where breath stops, could not last that long - but it does - many hours, days & beyond.  Since prana pervades the atmosphere around us, that prana is somehow absorbed during samadhi, without the lungs functioning.

Malcolm wrote:
There is also respiration through the skin.

There is no prāṇa as a separate entity. This is a huge misconception. There is a prāṇa vāyu i.e. the breath we inhale.

As far not breathing during certain states of samadhi -- during these state the respiration is so slight it is not noticed. It is still happening however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 10:09 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


cloudburst said:
so it is your claim that you actually fart out your downward-voiding wind? Interesting proposition. What happens when you ejaculate, also caused by the downward-voiding wind?

Malcolm wrote:
Not my claim -- clearly explained in Kalacakra, etc. And yes, ejaculation, urination, menstruation, happen because of the apana vāyu (thur sel rlung)


cloudburst said:
It seems you are overly literal when claiming that there is no difference between inner and outer wind.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I am just well trained in both Vajrayāna (Lamdre, Dzogchen) and Tibetan medicine.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 7:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
adinatha said:
I have always found that wind, fire, water and earth are confusing terms. I prefer motility, temperature, liquidity and solidity. These are retained by basic physics and tend to make the yogic practices jibe with modern understandings. Furthermore, going beyond these gross elements are the subtle "elements" of the sub-atomic world, those would be attraction, repulsion and neutrality (space). I have found these to be extremely apropos, because the three poisons of samsara are attachment, aversion and ignorance. I feel these are a perfect correspondence. Thus, in the realization of Atiyoga or Mahamudra, when grasping has ceased by recognition of the nature of basic space dharmadhatu, attachment and aversion have ceased; thus, the basic cause of matter, that is, attraction, repulsion and deluded space are unbound. Because dharmadhatu has qualities deluded ordinary space does not, there are the three kayas and the body, speech and mind of buddha.


Malcolm wrote:
Earth, air fire and water in one sense refer to the three states of matter with the presence or absence of heat being responsible for phase transition between states.

This replicates down no matter how far you go in physical reality.

But for our purposes, for example, discussing pranayāma and other such issues -- it obvious that vāyu is a name for the air that we are breathing in.

Basic space, incidentally, is a very bad rendering of dharmadhātu, and is not supported by commentaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 7:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
cloudburst said:
So you ARE saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen etc?

Namdrol said:
Well, we don't breath anything else, do we?

What flows through the channels in our body is vāyu (air) that has been refined in our lungs.

Otherwise, practices like caṇdali yoga would make no sense, would they?

prāṇa is a vāyu i.e. prāṇa vāyu (srog dzin rlung) aka "the life sustaining wind". This comes from our breath and no where else.

N

cloudburst said:
That all seems rather unlikely to me. For example, the very subtle wind that becomes the
illuory body is part water vapor?
Nitrogen is the substantial cause of the rupakaya?
The very subtle wind that goes from life to life is part Argon?
I'm sure I am misunderstanding your point here, I must be.


Malcolm wrote:
There are five elements: earth, water, fire, air and space -- they are material, whether coarse or subtle.

When transmigration happens at the time of death, the mind/wind leaves specific orifices of the body, or channel openings. This would bot be necessary if the wind upon which the mind is mounted was not itself physical and material.

For example, when you have flatulence, this comes from the apana vāyu, the downward-voiding wind. That flatus is apana-vāyu.

Vāyu in the body is coarse or subtle depending upon how much it is moving. But it is still something physical, part of the rūpa skandha.

If you cannot accept this explanation, then you have to invent terms that do not exist in the original Tibetan and Sanskrit texts, such as the Vajramālā tantra that explain things like vāyus and so on.

I prefer to not to interpolate new age ideas onto Vajrayāna. So, I accept that vāyu in the body comes from the breath. If you think about it long enough, you will understand that I am correct. You need to study tantric embryology. When you do, this will make more sense to you.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Namdrol said:
You have a lot of karmic connection with Dzogchen. But you can screw it up in three ways: not protecting your samaya, not practicing in a careful and precise way, and giving too much weight to conceptual experiences.

N

adinatha said:
I'm aware of all this.

Malcolm wrote:
Excellent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
Namdrol said:
KDL was a terton, so of course it is not unusual for tertons to have many experiences of visions of Guru Rinpoche even at quite a young age.

Nevertheless, it was not until he met his own root Guru, Dudjom Rinpoche, that his capacity to reveal termas was opened in this lifetime. Had he met the right consort, he would have had many earth termas, but there was an obstacle and so it did not happen. Nevertheless, he had many dgongs gter.

Having visions of Guru Rinpoche, as KDL did throughout his life, does not necessarily mean one is receiving teachings. However, KDL told me that he could communicate directly with Guru R. Of course, KDL was someone who had reached the complete end of the Dzogchen path. So this should not come as a surprise.

adinatha said:
I've had five clear visions beginning with my first memory. I have always had a nonstop fascination with crazy yogi sadhus and an aspiration to be one. Before I met any Dzogchen teachers I found the Seven Line Prayer and instantly started reciting it and felt intense natural rigpa blaze. Friends like Tony Duff helped me out with texts and deepened my experience. Yogini Changchub Palmo, student of Chatral Rinpoche, gave me a lot of affirmation. Over the years I've spent thousands of hours on listening and re-listening to ChNN. I've wondered if that Ati master is coming or what? Then, I'm also the "heart-son" to a Drikung lama, and that makes the situation weirder. Then I practice Dzogchen dedicatedly. I can't help it. I had a clear dream recently after practicing Togal similar to one KDL describes with a message from Ekajati. I received Tigle Gyachen without a reading transmission and definitely powerful blessings and I started to see signs in my dreams too. I'm puzzled by this. I feel Ekajati is throwing me blessings. The only connection I can make is that my family lineage ancestral homeland is the area that would now be considered Swat and all that surrounds it. My family heritage is that we were the kings of the land. The Puru. The Puru are the oldest living family lineage on the planet. It goes back 5000 years so I don't know. There's actually a Wikipedia article about it. I have no idea who wrote it. I know from family we have an intensely spiritual history, that includes Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs. There must be a past life connection somewhere. I want you to know that for me Ekajati is a teacher; at least I feel it if I'm doing something wrong by Ati. I physically will feel sick. It's like a barometer. What I'm saying here is from my heart of hearts. No bullshit. That's where I'm at. I'm gauging.

Malcolm wrote:
You have a lot of karmic connection with Dzogchen. But you can screw it up in three ways: not protecting your samaya, not practicing in a careful and precise way, and giving too much weight to conceptual experiences.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
cloudburst said:
So you ARE saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen etc?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, we don't breath anything else, do we?

What flows through the channels in our body is vāyu (air) that has been refined in our lungs.

Otherwise, practices like caṇdali yoga would make no sense, would they?

prāṇa is a vāyu i.e. prāṇa vāyu (srog dzin rlung) aka "the life sustaining wind". This comes from our breath and no where else.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 4:25 AM
Title: Elements
Content:


cloudburst said:
So you are saying that which flows through the channels is Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon and Carbon Dioxide?

Malcolm wrote:
Vāyu is part of the rūpa skandha. It is one of the four mahābhutani, great elements. When we breath in, the air we breath is vāyu. In the body, that vāyu that we breath in becomes the ten vāyus depending on how vāyu is functioning in a given part of the body.

This is nothing mysterious. Unfortunately, Buddhists have been unwittingly influenced by new age concepts about channels, cakras and so on.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 28th, 2011 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Yogacara, Dzogchen, Experience
Content:
adinatha said:
Also Kunzang Dechen Lingpa said he couldn't find a teacher so he sat outside some monastery and prayed like mad to Guru Rinpoche, then he appeared to him. How is this not teacher?

Namdrol said:
I am a very close disciple of KDL, one of his main US students. So, I will explain. He told me that he had received the Nyingthig Yazhi the first time when he was five.

He had transmission already.

adinatha said:
I see so because of this he was later able to pray to Guru Rinpoche and have him appear?

Malcolm wrote:
KDL was a terton, so of course it is not unusual for tertons to have many experiences of visions of Guru Rinpoche even at quite a young age.

Nevertheless, it was not until he met his own root Guru, Dudjom Rinpoche, that his capacity to reveal termas was opened in this lifetime. Had he met the right consort, he would have had many earth termas, but there was an obstacle and so it did not happen. Nevertheless, he had many dgongs gter.

Having visions of Guru Rinpoche, as KDL did throughout his life, does not necessarily mean one is receiving teachings. However, KDL told me that he could communicate directly with Guru R. Of course, KDL was someone who had reached the complete end of the Dzogchen path. So this should not come as a surprise.


