﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: Can lab-grown brains become conscious? Answer: We don't care
Content:
Dorje Shedrub said:
Malcolm, could such creations be considered sentient either now or with future advancements?

Malcolm wrote:
Unlikely. Machines are machines.

Queequeg said:
Four types of birth - womb, egg, moisture, spontaneous

If an entity is aware, why wouldn't it be considered sentient? The manner of its genesis would seem to be a secondary characteristic, with awareness being primary.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, there is no fifth birth, manufactured.

Define “awareness.”

Are Venus Fly Traps aware? Plants in genera?  Does reaction to external stimuli constitute awareness?

How does a consciousness seeking rebirth appropriate brain tissue in a vat?

If you are suggesting that a machine could suddenly become conscious, how is this different than the materialist claim that consciousness is merely an epiphenomenon of having a brain?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
As others have said earlier in this thread, that is an interpretation which is inconsistent with the other three Noble Truths.

Malcolm wrote:
To understand that there is no happiness in the three realms of existence is perfectly consistent with the other three truths. That is, to understand that all afflicted phenomena are suffering is consistent with the other three truths. Why? Because suffering has a cause, karma, and karma has a cause, affliction, and affliction has a condition, suffering, and round and round it goes.

PadmaVonSamba said:
And within that context, Malcolm can still experience a temporary sense of satisfaction and enjoyment in contributing his knowledge to this forum. It is a very pleasant distraction.
That doesn’t negate the basic (first noble) truth of the ‘suffering’ nature of our existence.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s just the dopamine, man.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: The Precious Treasury of the Expanse and Awakened Awareness: The Ornaments of the Definitive Secret
Content:
gelukman said:
I feel this precious teachings over 1000 pages needs own thread. So that those interest can find it easily.

mutsuk said:
The dByings-rig mdzod is indeed a precious teaching (obviously the opus magnum of Shardza Rinpoche) but this translation is so wrong in too numerous places to be a good reference for learning and practicing.

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps an example would be apropos. Not that I doubt you, but others may.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 7:35 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan languages-dialects or different languages?
Content:
White Sakura said:
Is it correct to compare the different Tibetan languages to French, Italian and Spanish? I mean, are the Tibetan languages really so different to each other as the Romance languages are? So a person cannot just get used to another dialect? Must sit and lern it as another language?
If it is different languages then for every prayer text the first question is, what Tibetan that is? Or is there one Tibetan language spread in the western countries?
I never heard that there are different translators of different Tibetan needed in my country. So I thought, Tibetan is one language and all Lamas speak that, no matter which area of Tibet their ancestors come from. Are the monks all trained in one main Tibetan language?

Malcolm wrote:
The scriptural language is the same, but dialect and pronunciation require Tibetan translators between Amdo people and Central Tibetans. These days Tibetans from different parts of Tibet tend to use Chinese as their common language when interacting with other Tibetans who do not share their dialect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 6:56 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
As others have said earlier in this thread, that is an interpretation which is inconsistent with the other three Noble Truths.

Malcolm wrote:
To understand that there is no happiness in the three realms of existence is perfectly consistent with the other three truths. That is, to understand that all afflicted phenomena are suffering is consistent with the other three truths. Why? Because suffering has a cause, karma, and karma has a cause, affliction, and affliction has a condition, suffering, and round and round it goes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 10:32 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:



boda said:
As I pointed out to SilenceMonkey, a "state", as in a state of "actual happiness", is a condition and conditions have opposites.

"Freedom from suffering" describes a particular condition. "Actual happiness" describes a particular condition. The two are not synonymous, and even if they were, they indicate a particular condition or "state".

Malcolm wrote:
freedom from suffering is happiness. For example, when one has splinter and can remove it.

Kim O'Hara said:
Sorry. If life is suffering, one is still suffering after removing the splinter. There is no happiness!


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
I did not say there was no happiness, I said there was no happiness in birth, aging, illness, and death, that is, the afflicted cycle of samsara’s three realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 9:01 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:



boda said:
Permanent unconditional happiness, hmm.

In the immortal words of Laurell K. Hamilton, " there is no light without dark ", therefore, there could be no happiness without its opposite. Maybe what is aimed for is something else and not happiness.

Giovanni said:
Unconditional  state is just that. No light. No dark. Neither permanent nor impermanent because time is of the conditioned.
Original mind.

boda said:
As I pointed out to SilenceMonkey, a "state", as in a state of "actual happiness", is a condition and conditions have opposites.

"Freedom from suffering" describes a particular condition. "Actual happiness" describes a particular condition. The two are not synonymous, and even if they were, they indicate a particular condition or "state".

Malcolm wrote:
freedom from suffering is happiness. For example, when one has splinter and can remove it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 7:17 AM
Title: Re: Kagyu Lineages
Content:
Matt J said:
I find a far greater variation in teachers than lineages. Two teachers in the same lineage can be very different based on my experience with various Nyingma teachers. Some teachers demand a very traditional approach, where you have only one teacher and they are very involved, and you start with traditional ngondro, three roots, etc. etc. Others are on the opposite end of the spectrum, many are in between.

Going from Gelug to Kagyu may give some cognitive dissonance based on how they incorporate Yogacara, especially if you end up with a Shentong-type teacher.

I tried to take a break from Dzogchen to study Kagyu, but then the teacher started to teach Dzogchen, so...

Malcolm wrote:
There are no rules, hence follow teachers, not lineages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: Luminous Heart III Karmapa, new edition?
Content:
gelukman said:
Hello
https://www.shambhala.com/luminous-heart.html

I see Luminous Heart is recently published.
What is the difference to this publication?

https://www.namsebangdzo.com/Luminous-Heart-p/15706.htm

Malcolm wrote:
It is a reissue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: CoEmergent Wisdom
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
One might want to have a Coemergent Mahamudra lama.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, if that is the system one wishes to practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: CoEmergent Wisdom
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
Coemergent actually means innate. (tib. lhan skyes)

Malcolm wrote:
It depends, lhan cig skyes in Dzogchen in fact means "connate." If ignorance were innate, one could never be rid of it.

Co-emergent is a dumb word and is not proper English. It was coined by a German, of course.

SilenceMonkey said:
Lol, agreed.

I was always curious about this word. In terms of ignorance, what is it that ignorance arises with?

Malcolm wrote:
It means that in the first moment that the basis arises up from the basis, one does not know what these appearances are. Hence the term "connate ignorance" (lhan cig skyes ma rig pa).

Sahajajñāna on the other hand, lhan cig skyes pa'i ye shes, refers to the wisdom that one discovers by oneself, so it is a synonym of rang byung ye shes. It does not really mean "connate" at all, in this context.

It is a complicated term, connate for example can refer to the cause, the three afflictions, and so on. It cannot be defined in just one way, because there are many ways of understanding this term. For example, Jetsun Rinpoche, in his commentary on Hevajra, defines it as follows:

The Hevajra states:

Whatever arises connately
is called connate.
Called “connate by nature,”
all aspects are unified and one.

“If it is asked what entity is connate, that is called “connate by nature.” That being the case, there are two types of connate: example and meaning. If it is asked what is the meaning [connate], it means that ‘by nature’ has been so from the start, but is not produced dependently. If it is asked why that is the case, “All aspects are a single vow.” This means that when all phenomena are summarized, they are free from all proliferation.”

But Saraha defines it:

Connate gnosis 
is the reality that one experiences.

Aryadeva states:

Because the seed syllable A that is the door to all concentrations is nonarising, it is said to be the door to all phenomena, and is also called connate gnosis.

Thus as per usual, there is no one size fits all for this term. It all depends on context.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: CoEmergent Wisdom
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
Coemergent actually means innate. (tib. lhan skyes)

Malcolm wrote:
It depends, lhan cig skyes in Dzogchen in fact means "connate." If ignorance were innate, one could never be rid of it.

Co-emergent is a dumb word and is not proper English. It was coined by a German, of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 25th, 2021 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
Glad you cleared that up.


Malcolm wrote:
For the record, I have received the empowerments and lungs for both cycles.

Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
I would love to receive the Khandro Nyinthig I think it’s from the Drikung Yangzab have the texts from Eric Fry Miller but there’s never been a transmission online anyway that I know of!

Malcolm wrote:
The Khandro Nyinthig is a terma of Pema Ledrel Tsal and Longchenpa. The dgongs pa yang zab of Rinchen Phuntosk is an appendix to that practice. Rinchen Phuntsog claimed to be the tulku of Longchenpa's son. What is present on Fry-Miller's page is a short commentary on the Khandro Nyinthig written by Rinchen Phuntsok.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 24th, 2021 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
One might think to ask a Drikung Kagyu lama, as in someone qualified by the lineage to answer questions about Drikung Kagyu teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Konchog Chidu is widely spread in Nyingma and Kagyu. The reason it spread widely in the latter is due to it being a principle practice of Situ Panchen of Palpung.

Rinchen Phuntsog's earlier treasure cycle, dgongs pa yang zab, etc., also has yang zab in the title of the cycle. So people became a little confused as to what cycle Garchen Rinpoche was actually giving.

Crazywisdom said:
Glad you cleared that up.

Malcolm wrote:
For the record, I have received the empowerments and lungs for both cycles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 24th, 2021 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: Kagyu Lineages
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Follow teachers, not lineages.

Hazel said:
Thank you all for the feedback! It was very helpful.

For various reasons I am dipping my toe outside of Gelug and getting a sense of the land, particularly in the direction of Drikung Kagyu.

I already know the lineage that I am going to explore, but was curious about how strict people are about following one lineage and one lineage only. But also curious in general about how much they differed, which people kindly responded, thank you.

I'm talking to a lama hopefully this weekend that I hope will answer the more practical questions I had about what practice looks like for someone of my background. That of course I would not trust the internet for.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 24th, 2021 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
...I wanted to point out that the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta did not say:



Which suggests to me that "everything is is stressful (or suffering)" was not the intention of the teaching.

On the other hand, it did say:



Which points to a way out of suffering, as promised. In very simple words, we make ourselves unhappy by grabbing on to things which can't make us happy, and the way out is to stop grabbing.

To complete the argument, the sutta is not saying "life is suffering", i.e. our suffering is not built into the way the world is, but is a result of our poor choices.


Kim

Johnny Dangerous said:
We can't experience anything through our afflicted Skandhas that is somehow removed from dukkha, dukkha is omnipresent. it doesn't mean "don't have fun" though.

Kim O'Hara said:
I don't think we're a long way apart, JD, but it seems to me that you have just imported another untranslated term (Skandhas) and original sin (afflicted) in an attempt to bolster your view that dukkha (untranslated) is omnipresent.
I don't think that helps us very much.
I'm probably willing to agree that dukkha is omnipresent, depending on what English term 'dukkha' stands for, but your 'afflicted Skandhas' do nothing to convince me one way or the other.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Well, upadana means addictive, and the skandhas are addictive because they are afflicted, in the sequence klesha-+>karma—>dukkha. How ever you choose to parse those terms, that is the process of samsara.

For as long as one has not interrupted this cycle, there are the many dukkhas  of samsara.

All afflicted/painful phenomena are suffering. The only compounded phenomena not included as suffering are path phenomena. You can read about thus in Vasubandhu, whose Abhidharma is more relevant to Mahayana than Abhidhamma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 24th, 2021 at 10:40 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
IDK, Thanisarro would be an odd choice for "avoidance", whatever his other issues (like Hatin' on the Mahayana), I don't see him as a waterer-downer usually.

Stress may have a connotation in the present cultural /self help moment like "I'm stressed about my Latte and my Pilates class" or whatever, but stress is literally one of the main things that kills people and hastens the decay of body and mind, and it is absolutely omnipresent and unavoidable in life. in that sense, it seems like a reasonable choice to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Dukkha is a related to pain, pleasure, and neutral sensations, which are a result of hatred, desire, and ignorance.

Pain is recognized immediately as painful. Pleasure is recognized to be painful when it’s conditions no longer arise. Neutral sensations are not painful, per se., but they lead to indifference of impermanence, which is painful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 24th, 2021 at 10:13 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
Sorry to go back this far but I just didn't have time to respond to a couple of older posts when they appeared. Here's one: Well yes, it's pretty plain. But, with the best will in the world on the part of every person in the chain of transmission, it isn't exactly what the Buddha said. He said something along those lines in another language, and I think most of our problems with it arise from (mis)translation.

Malcolm wrote:
“Stress” for dukkha is insufficient. As you can see from Merriam Webster, suffering is perfect for dukkha:

Definition of suffer
transitive verb
1a : to submit to or be forced to endure
suffer martyrdom
b : to feel keenly : labor under
suffer thirst
2 : UNDERGO, EXPERIENCE
3 : to put up with especially as inevitable or unavoidable
4 : to allow especially by reason of indifference
the eagle suffers little birds to sing
— William Shakespeare
intransitive verb
1 : to endure death, pain, or distress
2 : to sustain loss or damage
3 : to be subject to disability or handicap

Kim O'Hara said:
With all due respect, Merriam Webster says nothing at all about whether 'suffering' is the best translation of 'dukkha'. How can it, when it doesn't mention 'dukkha' at all?
If you have shown anything by quoting the dictionary, it is only that 'suffering' has a range of meanings which match your own personal understanding of 'dukkha'.

It seems to me that a reasonable approach to finding a translation for 'dukkha' would be to see what a variety of respected teachers have used, remembering that any word - 'suffering' or 'dukkha' included - has a range of meanings and that the range of meanings of a single word in one language is unlikely to coincide with the range of meanings of a single word in another.

Anyway, that's the approach I took years ago and here's what I got from it.
'Dukkha'  is most often translated  as ‘suffering’, ‘unsatisfactoriness’ or ‘stress’ but none of them are quite right.
Here are more translations, and somewhere between them is the meaning of ‘dukkha’.
suffering injury pain affliction anguish unhappiness sorrow misery despair worry  anxiety fear frustration dissatisfaction non-satisfaction unsatisfactoriness aversion  discomfort stress discontent irritation unsteadiness  disturbance transience impermanence


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Suffering works best, in my opinion. “Stress” just doesn’t cover it. The attempt to finesse this is is an exercise in avoidance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 24th, 2021 at 10:09 AM
Title: Re: Samantabhadra's Aspiration Prayer
Content:
Yklah said:
Hi everyone,

I am pretty confused about the next topic, and i would appreciate that some spiritual brohter or sister could clarify this very point to me: according to buddhist philosophy, any notion of a creator God is rejected: a God who exists without a cause and without conditions, and that acts as the creator of all phenomena and sentient beings.

Malcolm wrote:
There are some people, quite confused about the meaning of dzogchen, who mistake Samantabhadra for a creator. Samantabhadra has five subdivisions: teacher, basis, realization, qualities, and result. None of these five are creators.

In this context, the Samantabhadra being referred to is the Samantabhadra of the basis, that is, the nature of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 24th, 2021 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Job issue
Content:
jewel123 said:
Hello. I highly dislike my job, to the point of hating it. I work in conservation (leadership position) and I am absolutely exhausted. On one hand, I understand that I directly work for the benefit of animals and human communities, but I don’t feel comfortable and happy with this work and the responsibility is just too much for me. Should I accept it as me repaying my karmic debts or pursue something less demanding where I can be a bit more content?  I am thinking of quitting. Any input will be valuable for me. Thank you very much.

Malcolm wrote:
You have to work with circumstances. If you cannot handle the burden imposed by your position, you should think of finding another line of work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 23rd, 2021 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: Can lab-grown brains become conscious? Answer: We don't care
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
We should take care that we follow the morality we're preaching.)

Malcolm wrote:
Pratimokṣa vows are not "morality" in the western sense of the term. They are principles one follows in one's own life in for the purpose of of one's own (prati) liberation (mokṣa). The same is true of bodhisattva vows, and also secret mantra vows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 23rd, 2021 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Question about Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:



tony_montana said:
I'm also curious to know if we can practice the wrathful Guru as Yidam and Simhamukha Dakini based on the empowerment.
Can we practice their mantras?

Malcolm wrote:
If you have the lung, yes.

KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Could you give the lung, Malcolm?

Malcolm wrote:
You can get the lung for this from almost any Nyingma or Kagyu Lama. It is very widespread and popular.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 23rd, 2021 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
One might think to ask a Drikung Kagyu lama, as in someone qualified by the lineage to answer questions about Drikung Kagyu teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Konchog Chidu is widely spread in Nyingma and Kagyu. The reason it spread widely in the latter is due to it being a principle practice of Situ Panchen of Palpung.

Rinchen Phuntsog's earlier treasure cycle, dgongs pa yang zab, etc., also has yang zab in the title of the cycle. So people became a little confused as to what cycle Garchen Rinpoche was actually giving.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 23rd, 2021 at 7:45 AM
Title: Re: Direct introduction + bodhisattva vows
Content:
Matt J said:
How can you unintentionally receive Bodhisattva vows?

Malcolm wrote:
Then you received bodhisattva vows during the anniversary of Adzom Drukpa.
You can’t, but these anniversary days have explanations of refuge and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 23rd, 2021 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Direct introduction + bodhisattva vows
Content:
Damchö_Dorje said:
I joined webcast anniversary of Adzom Drukpa in 2016. By that time I had had a refuge ceremony with another lama, but not bodhisattva vows. If I had never taken bodhisattva vows, does that mean I didn't receive direct introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
Then you received bodhisattva vows during the anniversary of Adzom Drukpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Does he actually deny that life is dukkha in this book?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
There is a trend of people (including Buddhist teachers) saying that dukkha should not be translated as suffering….So IMO these people don't really understand the Buddhadharma's deep message.

Malcolm wrote:
Marketing.

TharpaChodron said:
In all seriousness, is this what the Dalai Lama’s books, such as “The Joy of Happiness,” are doing? Maybe that’s just skillful means for the masses?

Malcolm wrote:
I suspect HHDL’s notion of happiness is a bit different than the petite bourgeois goals of most Americans, and westerners in general. Path dharmas, while compounded, are not afflictive, and therefore lead to nirvana, which is happiness in the sense that it is the total absence of suffering in its three forms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Hopefully they will post an English sadhana on the website, apparently they have a Chinese translation, but not English.

There is the peaceful guru sadhana that can be found on google with Thrangu Rinpoche notes/commentary on it. Here's the one I mean: https://docdro.id/jaAOGMt

But now I am not sure if this is the same one that was being used here. Does it matter?

It seems to me that the specific details of this stuff doesn't matter as much as bodhicitta, keeping a focused and relaxed mind, and trying to recognize what was pointed out in the introduction. At least, that's what I get from Garchen R's attitude to this stuff.

So I may just use this sadhana which is available and give it a shot.

Malcolm wrote:
The essence of Konchog Chidu is the seven line prayer and the vajraguru mantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
There is a trend of people (including Buddhist teachers) saying that dukkha should not be translated as suffering….So IMO these people don't really understand the Buddhadharma's deep message.

Malcolm wrote:
Marketing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are seven sections to this empowerment. Garchen Rinpoche skipped the poti wang, the simhamukha transmission, and the rig pa'i rtsal dbang. These three follow the fourth empowerment. But you know, guru's choice.

ratna said:
He skipped the rig pa'i rtsal dbang but did do the poti wang (the vajra master empowerment), with the ali kali mantra and the pecha as the implement. Also he went through the brief srog gtad of the protector (with the red torma as the implement), although this was not translated.

Malcolm wrote:
He must have using an empowerment text other than the common one in the terdzod, but admittedly, I only observed the end of the video at someone’s request from the end of the third onward.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 8:28 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
Well yes, it's pretty plain. But, with the best will in the world on the part of every person in the chain of transmission, it isn't exactly what the Buddha said. He said something along those lines in another language, and I think most of our problems with it arise from (mis)translation.

Malcolm wrote:
“Stress” for dukkha is insufficient. As you can see from Merriam Webster, suffering is perfect for dukkha:

Definition of suffer
transitive verb
1a : to submit to or be forced to endure
suffer martyrdom
b : to feel keenly : labor under
suffer thirst
2 : UNDERGO, EXPERIENCE
3 : to put up with especially as inevitable or unavoidable
4 : to allow especially by reason of indifference
the eagle suffers little birds to sing
— William Shakespeare
intransitive verb
1 : to endure death, pain, or distress
2 : to sustain loss or damage
3 : to be subject to disability or handicap


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Temporary happiness is the suffering of change.


PadmaVonSamba said:
Temporarily arising conditions can provide the basis for temporary happiness of the subject. But that’s all they can do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 8:19 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are seven sections to this empowerment. Garchen Rinpoche skipped the poti wang, the simhamukha transmission, and the rig pa'i rtsal dbang. These three follow the fourth empowerment. But you know, guru's choice.

ratna said:
He skipped the rig pa'i rtsal dbang but did do the poti wang (the vajra master empowerment), with the ali kali mantra and the pecha as the implement. Also he went through the brief srog gtad of the protector (with the red torma as the implement), although this was not translated.

lucidaromulus said:
What does the poti wang does?
(I read a few posts about it in the forum but to be Frank I'm still unclear what authorization it gives)

Malcolm wrote:
Authorizes one to read the cycle and practice the sadhanas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 11:33 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:



Nicholas2727 said:
Correct, I was more curious if there was more support for TNH not including suffering as one of the Dharma seals, or if this was something he did on his own. I went back to the book I was referring to and he says in the Samyukta Agama the Buddha says the three seals are impermanence, nonself and nirvana. The Dharma seal of suffering is not included (at least according to his footnote). He also says that Nagarjuna in his Mahaprajnaparamita Shastra "listed nirvana as one of the Three Dharma Seals." The way he says it here makes it sound like Nagarjuna only listed Three Dharma seals, not four, which would align with his argument although I have no knowledge on if this is true.

Malcolm wrote:
They are as I have listed them, though they appear in various forms in the sutras.

Nicholas2727 said:
Got it, thank you for the clarification

Malcolm wrote:
If someone thinks there is actually happiness in this life, they have not examined things deeply enough.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 11:01 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:




Nicholas2727 said:
That may be what they were trying to point out. I have moved on from those teachers and only spent a short amount of time with them so I never got around to asking what they meant specifically or for further clarification. I also quoted TNH in my post as someone who devoted a chapter in Heart of the Buddhas Teaching to the question, "is everything suffering?" It has been some time since I read that book, although if my memory is correct he made an argument similar to yours. I am sure someone with more knowledge on what TNH was saying could share his point of view better than I am. Maybe it would be a good time to reread that chapter as well to see if I missed the point my first time reading.



Malcolm wrote:
The four seals are:

All compounded phenomena are impermanent.
All afflicted phenomena are suffering.
All phenomenon lack identity.
Nirvana is peace.

This is the Mahayana formulation.

Nicholas2727 said:
Correct, I was more curious if there was more support for TNH not including suffering as one of the Dharma seals, or if this was something he did on his own. I went back to the book I was referring to and he says in the Samyukta Agama the Buddha says the three seals are impermanence, nonself and nirvana. The Dharma seal of suffering is not included (at least according to his footnote). He also says that Nagarjuna in his Mahaprajnaparamita Shastra "listed nirvana as one of the Three Dharma Seals." The way he says it here makes it sound like Nagarjuna only listed Three Dharma seals, not four, which would align with his argument although I have no knowledge on if this is true.

Malcolm wrote:
They are as I have listed them, though they appear in various forms in the sutras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 10:47 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
And we Buddhists aren’t into converting others, except Nichiren Buddhists. That’s another misconception which I have been guilty of.

Malcolm wrote:
No, but people universally think we are grim because we keep talking about the uncertainty of the time of death and impermanence, and they find it unnerving.


TharpaChodron said:
And it’s hard to disabuse others of this notion that Buddhism is grim because essentially you’re going against the samsaric grain - which is entirely the point.

Malcolm wrote:
As Buddha actually said, “I am not against the world, but the world is against me.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 10:31 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:
lucidaromulus said:
Malcolm, if you don't mind can you let me know what's the Sadhana title and author that was transmitted in this video?

Thank you


Malcolm wrote:
Sten already mentioned this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 10:25 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
And we Buddhists aren’t into converting others, except Nichiren Buddhists. That’s another misconception which I have been guilty of.

Malcolm wrote:
No, but people universally think we are grim because we keep talking about the uncertainty of the time of death and impermanence, and they find it unnerving.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 10:20 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
There is a distinction between saying that all conditioned experiences are tainted with dukkha and saying that experiences themselves are dukkha. If that were not true, there would be no Second Noble Truth, and no need for one, nor the following truths, we'd just be screwed. Maybe that's what your teachers were trying to express?

It is the sort of distinction that makes a bigger difference than it seems, and is one of those things that is definitely a misconception - that all experiences are dukkha in some ontological sense, rather than that all phenomenal experiences necessarily lead to dukkha. It's the kind of misconception that doesn't seem to matter to non-Buddhists, making it even more common. You can't really study the Four Noble Truths in detail without acknowledging it though, and perhaps that's why it's important.

This becomes arguably very important in the Mahayana as well, where the nature of appearances themselves becomes a theme. For that matter, the theme of incorrectly ascribing inherent qualities to appearances is big in the Mahayana as well.

If one believe that appearances themselves were somehow inherently or essentially dukkha, it would be an impediment, on a number of levels. So, I can see why some teachers would want to correct that early on.


Nicholas2727 said:
That may be what they were trying to point out. I have moved on from those teachers and only spent a short amount of time with them so I never got around to asking what they meant specifically or for further clarification. I also quoted TNH in my post as someone who devoted a chapter in Heart of the Buddhas Teaching to the question, "is everything suffering?" It has been some time since I read that book, although if my memory is correct he made an argument similar to yours. I am sure someone with more knowledge on what TNH was saying could share his point of view better than I am. Maybe it would be a good time to reread that chapter as well to see if I missed the point my first time reading.

Malcolm wrote:
The four seals are:

All compounded phenomena are impermanent.
All afflicted phenomena are suffering.
All phenomenon lack identity.
Nirvana is peace.

This is the Mahayana formulation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 9:39 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:


Passing By said:
So was the 4th one a direct introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but not the rig pa’i rtsal dbang. On the one hand, all word empowerments are direct introductions. One can consider it an introduction to trekcho, but this is not entirely accurate. It’s a foundation empowerment for the rig pa’i rtsal dbang. Empowerments ripen, but the instructions liberate. A characteristic of the rig pa’i rtsal dbang, and why they are crucial, is that they combine the ripening empowerment and liberating instruction together. The is a unique feature of Dzogchen empowerments.

It’s a beautiful cycle of teachings that has complete dzogchen teachings, which sadly are not given very frequently anymore. But maybe if you ask Garchen Rinpoche, he can teach you Rigzin Tsewang Norbu’s commentary on the creation stage and Kongtrul’s commentary on the completion stage. Konchok Chidu was Kongtrul’s main practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 8:47 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
You’re basically saying that the problem with life is rebirth,

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. That is also the Buddha’s point view. YMMV. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with suffering, other than the fact that it is tends to perpetuate itself, and it is painful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 8:17 AM
Title: Re: Can lab-grown brains become conscious? Answer: We don't care
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Formless realms beings have no sensory input. They are sustained solely on the concept that direct their rebirth, infinite consciousness, etc.

Dorje Shedrub said:
Malcolm, could such creations be considered sentient either now or with future advancements?

Malcolm wrote:
Unlikely. Machines are machines.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 8:13 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
Also (and I don't know why no-one has mentioned it yet), 'dukkha' is not exactly translated as 'suffering'. 'Unsatisfactoriness' or 'dis-ease' are closer to it, and the distinction does matter, so there are really two misconceptions in play here: whether everything is dukkha, and whether dukkha is suffering. Put the two together and we have quite a shift in meaning of the First Noble Truth, from (approximately!) "Everything in daily life is tainted with unsatisfactoriness," to "Life is suffering."


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Suffering serves quite well for dukkha, just as happiness/bliss serves just fine for sukha.

Life is suffering because all rebirth is driven by affliction and karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 7:14 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
There is a distinction between saying that all conditioned experiences are tainted with dukkha and saying that experiences themselves are dukkha. If that were not true, there would be no Second Noble Truth, and no need for one, nor the following truths, we'd just be screwed. Maybe that's what your teachers were trying to express?

It is the sort of distinction that makes a bigger difference than it seems, and is one of those things that is definitely a misconception - that all experiences are dukkha in some ontological sense, rather than that all phenomenal experiences necessarily lead to dukkha. It's the kind of misconception that doesn't seem to matter to non-Buddhists, making it even more common. You can't really study the Four Noble Truths in detail without acknowledging it though, and perhaps that's why it's important.

This becomes arguably very important in the Mahayana as well, where the nature of appearances themselves becomes a theme. For that matter, the theme of incorrectly ascribing inherent qualities to appearances is big in the Mahayana as well.

If one believe that appearances themselves were somehow inherently or essentially dukkha, it would be an impediment, on a number of levels. So, I can see why some teachers would want to correct that early on.

Malcolm wrote:
As Maitreya points out, there isn’t a pin point of happiness anywhere in samsara.

Johnny Dangerous said:
It doesn't make the distinction any less true, it is a question of the etiology of suffering, so to speak, not the fact that it is all-pervading, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
There is suffering because there is karma, and there is karma because there is affliction, so any afflicted person should not be surprised that everywhere they turn, they find only suffering. Hence sarvadukkham.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 6:26 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
There is a distinction between saying that all conditioned experiences are tainted with dukkha and saying that experiences themselves are dukkha. If that were not true, there would be no Second Noble Truth, and no need for one, nor the following truths, we'd just be screwed. Maybe that's what your teachers were trying to express?

It is the sort of distinction that makes a bigger difference than it seems, and is one of those things that is definitely a misconception - that all experiences are dukkha in some ontological sense, rather than that all phenomenal experiences necessarily lead to dukkha. It's the kind of misconception that doesn't seem to matter to non-Buddhists, making it even more common. You can't really study the Four Noble Truths in detail without acknowledging it though, and perhaps that's why it's important.

This becomes arguably very important in the Mahayana as well, where the nature of appearances themselves becomes a theme. For that matter, the theme of incorrectly ascribing inherent qualities to appearances is big in the Mahayana as well.

If one believe that appearances themselves were somehow inherently or essentially dukkha, it would be an impediment, on a number of levels. So, I can see why some teachers would want to correct that early on.

Malcolm wrote:
As Maitreya points out, there isn’t a pin point of happiness anywhere in samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: The Complete Nyingma Tradition
Content:
yeshegyaltsen said:
I believe it was actually a project initiated by Lama Tharchin. Ngawang Zangpo was originally the primary translator, but has since moved on to other things which is what brought Gyurme Dorje onto the project. Heidi Nevin is now working on the remaining volumes, from what I understand.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that’s correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:
bryandavis said:
Lopon Malcom,

So GR Did not give the 5th empowerment of this konchok chidu wang.  It was translated as the empowerment of the view.

However the 4th empowerment was translated as having given one permission to "practice the inner most essence of primordial purity and spontaneous presence"

If the 5th empowerment is the rigpai tsal wang, what of the 4th empowerment allowing  "practice the inner most essence of primordial purity and spontaneous presence" ... Is this not referring to Trekcho and togal? Read text related etc?

Just to clear up for those who have not received before.

Malcolm wrote:
There are seven sections to this empowerment. Garchen Rinpoche skipped the poti wang, the simhamukha transmission, and the rig pa'i rtsal dbang. These three follow the fourth empowerment. But you know, guru's choice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Avoiding mistakes
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
I like the idea of working half the year in some menial job, then the other half go into retreat. Then maybe more retreat as the years go on.

Malcolm wrote:
In the real world, taking six months off a year only works if you are in construction or if you are a nurse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:



Nicholas2727 said:
Maybe I have had a misunderstanding then. Before coming to Mahayana, I had numerous Theravada teachers correct anyone who said the first noble truth is "all of life is suffering." They would make the point that the first noble truth is simply Dukkha.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.165.wlsh.html

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Can lab-grown brains become conscious? Answer: We don't care
Content:


Jesse said:
I'm not entirely sure if these would have an experience similar to formless beings,

Malcolm wrote:
Formless realms beings have no sensory input. They are sustained solely on the concept that direct their rebirth, infinite consciousness, etc.


Jesse said:
In the article I read they grew a brain organoid, and then grew a small cluster of eye cells(cones/rods), and then connected them together. The brain cells responded to a light stimulus being shined on the eye cells. I don't think they are going to stop this type of research.

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 21st, 2021 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Question about Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment
Content:



tony_montana said:
I'm also curious to know if we can practice the wrathful Guru as Yidam and Simhamukha Dakini based on the empowerment.
Can we practice their mantras?

Malcolm wrote:
If you have the lung, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 21st, 2021 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
madhusudan said:
Dhukka is misunderstood, so non-Buddhists think they "disagree" with the First Noble Truth.

Nicholas2727 said:
I think this also could be because some people misunderstand or have been misinformed that the First Noble Truth says as "all of life is suffering." I have heard many people say this and I have even seen it in some books, which gives people the wrong idea of the First Noble Truth.

Malcolm wrote:
Sarvadukkhaṃ is pretty clear: all is suffering. Painful sensations are suffering, the suffering of suffering, the result of hatred; pleasurable feelings are suffering, the suffering of change, the result of desire; and neutral feelings are suffering, the suffering of the compounded, the result of ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 21st, 2021 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Can lab-grown brains become conscious? Answer: We don't care
Content:
Jesse said:
that means someone is experiencing a very unfortunate rebirth. A disembodied consciousness cut off from sensory experience, with no idea what's happening to them; alone in a dark void for an indeterminate length of time.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this not different than a formless realm being. However, it is unlikely such tissue will be conscious, since this kind of tissue will have never had any sense organs, and will be completely unaware, lacking any self-awareness. Also, there is no conception involved here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Let's talk about common misconceptions of Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Another common misperception is that Buddhism is "nontheistic" as opposed to atheistic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: The Complete Nyingma Tradition
Content:
mutsuk said:
The Complete Nyingma Tradition was a Tsadra/Shambhala fascinating project.  Since the passing of Gyurme Dorje last year, does anyone know if the project of publishing the remaining volumes is still on, or have the remaining volumes been cancelled?

See : https://www.tsadra.org/translation/featured-translations/complete-nyingma-tradition/

As far as I know only 4 volumes (covering books 1-10, 13, 14, and 15-17) have been published...

Malcolm wrote:
Still on, he only worked on one volume.

mutsuk said:
Ah, Okay. That is interesting. So do you know who is taking the charge of translating the remaining chapters?

Malcolm wrote:
No Idea, but he only did the Guhyagarbha section anyway, not the other published volumes. You should reach out to Marcus Perman for that other information.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 7:11 PM
Title: Re: The Complete Nyingma Tradition
Content:
mutsuk said:
The Complete Nyingma Tradition was a Tsadra/Shambhala fascinating project.  Since the passing of Gyurme Dorje last year, does anyone know if the project of publishing the remaining volumes is still on, or have the remaining volumes been cancelled?

See : https://www.tsadra.org/translation/featured-translations/complete-nyingma-tradition/

As far as I know only 4 volumes (covering books 1-10, 13, 14, and 15-17) have been published...

Malcolm wrote:
Still on, he only worked on one volume.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 7:09 AM
Title: Re: Prayers for healing of myself.
Content:
Budai said:
I have been through a lot of trauma helping people I Love deeply with their karma, and eventually I had to stop taking on many peoples karma because it hurt me too much physically and emotionally to continue on.

Malcolm wrote:
I pray that you free yourself from the fantasy that you can take on other peoples karma. Not even the Buddha could take on other peoples karma.

Budai said:
It’s not that He couldn’t,

Malcolm wrote:
He could not, and made it quite clear he could not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
IMO, here in the west you can't just launch into the myths and stories without laying down some groundwork for how to understand them. Most people will just reject them as religious fairytales otherwise. I think Gene Reeve's approach in the book I quoted before is pretty effective, you need to first explain how to understand and experience the myths, then go into the stories and tales and as you tell them, apply them to people's lives and make them relevant and meaningful.

Malcolm wrote:
You will note that the treatise tradition basically draws the core principles from various sutras, and largely leaves the mythic content behind. This is one strength of the Nalanda tradition, and a good reason not to focus attention on the raw material presented in the sutras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:



heart said:
That is only the peaceful guru. The normal nyingma sadhana contains guru, longlife, four activities, yidam, dakini, tsog and so on.

Nalanda translations translated everything, ngondro, sadhana and instructions on kyerim and dzogchen.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Tulku Dakpa uses my translation. You can perhaps get it from him.

heart said:
I got that, didn't know it was yours.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
I do a lot of anonymous work...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
The sadhana for the Konchog Chidu has been translated many times.

Javierfv1212 said:
Is this it?

https://namobuddhapub.org/files/practices/ThranguR-Konchog_Chidu_Practice_for_Website.pdf

heart said:
That is only the peaceful guru. The normal nyingma sadhana contains guru, longlife, four activities, yidam, dakini, tsog and so on.

Nalanda translations translated everything, ngondro, sadhana and instructions on kyerim and dzogchen.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Tulku Dakpa uses my translation. You can perhaps get it from him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
Guess it’s about time to move in with my sister-in law in Caithness, Scotland.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.northcoast500.com/2018/04/40-reasons-why-you-should-never-ever-ever-visit-caithness-ever/

TharpaChodron said:
Looks absolutely terrible.

I think I mentioned, my sister-in-law is like a female Obi-Wan Kenobi, currently living in a remote old stone bothy.

Malcolm wrote:
I've been there, you absolutely do not want to go...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:


Giovanni said:
I wasn’t clear. My meaning is that westerners are not going to flock to hear such stories presented as history or cosmology. Presented as non linear, non literal truths to live by and as upaya is another thing.

Malcolm wrote:
One of the reasons why Trungpa's books were so popular, Myth of Freedom, Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, etc., is that he had a knack for presenting Buddhist teachings in a way that Westerners in the 70's could easily absorb. He was quite willing to forgo literalism in favor of meaning. So was Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, for that matter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 20th, 2021 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: in the weeds here
Content:
LastLegend said:
10 Worlds are 10 realms. When we get angry and want to kill, that’s hell realm.

Malcolm wrote:
So what corresponds to the experience of arhats, pratyekabuddhas, bodhisattvas, and buddhas? After all, the whole point of this idea is that all are included in a single mental moment, which, when misunderstood, leads to such ideas that buddhas etc, experience suffering of the six realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
LastLegend said:
“Not at all” as in my claim is incorrect that other traditions have better tricks?

Malcolm wrote:
I think the problem here is that the antecedent to the preposition "this" is unclear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:


Javierfv1212 said:
You just have to present it in the right way. Hence, Buddhists must re-learn how to tell stories.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you have to convince the audience to suspend their disbelief for a while.

On the other hand, some sūtras, like the PP Sutras, while containing myths such as search of Sadāprarudita for the Pefection of Wisdom, mainly focuses on explicating the omniscience of a buddha that arises from realizing emptiness. These texts are far more easy for modern people to lean into because they focus more on the essentials of the Dharma, such as the view of emptiness, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Giovanni said:
Literalist or sectarian approaches have in the past left me putting it to one side as a strange departure from Dharma.

Javierfv1212 said:
IMO both excessive rationalism or scientism and skepticism as well as literalism/fundamentalism will seriously dampen the natural human spiritual intuition

The fate of Christianity in the West is an apt example (i.e. either people retreat into fundamentalist irrationalism or they abandon it as clearly unscientific and irrational)

Its a lesson we need to learn if we want Western Buddhism to avoid this fate

Giovanni said:
Yes, a point I tried to make earlier. It’s seems likely that traditional Buddhist cultures will hold their mythology and view of themselves as special cases for some generations to come. But after shedding the burden of literalism and religious fundamentalism  most westerners are not going to flock to stories of magic mountains, undersea talking serpents, tardis stupas etc. unless they can see clearly the real nature of these devices of literature. Perhaps Dharma will need to be presented in more prosaic terms to meet the needs of an age which is less poetic?

Malcolm wrote:
I think the framing myths which are common to all Dharma traditions are important. Also, in each individual tradition, there are important framing myths. Problems arise, however, when different sects begin to assert that their framing myths are more valid than or supersede the framing myths of other traditions.

I have mentioned here before that I think we need to distinguish myth, legend, and history, when we look at Dharma traditions. For example, TPK brought up the myth of Sadāparibhūta in the Lotus. Why is this a myth?

Giovanni said:
“Mahā sthāma prāpta, in the past, in a time gone by, countless,
innumerable, incalculable, vast asaṃkhyeya eons ago, at that time, in that era,
in the Vinirbhoga eon, in the world realm Mahāsaṃbhavā, there appeared in
the world the tathāgata, the arhat, the perfectly enlightened buddha, the one
with perfect wisdom and conduct, the sugata, the knower of the world, the
unsurpassable guide who tamed beings, the teacher of gods and humans,
the buddha, the bhagavān named Bhīṣmagarjitasvararāja.

Malcolm wrote:
This passage is not historical and it is not a legend, it is set in the far distant past beyond anything that remotely resembles the history of the universe as we presently understand it (cue remarks about going beyond concepts, etc.).

Buddha was a historical person, but there are many legends about him, and the actual biography of the Buddha as a human being is still far from certain, but there are certain features of his biography to which all traditions assent, known as the twelve deeds.

An example of a legend about the Buddha, an episode which exists only in the Chan tradition, concerns his holding up a flower, the meaning of which is only understood by Mahakashyapa. This is a didactic legend. It serves to underscore the fundamental point that the meaning of awakening cannot truly be encompassed in words.

There are countless varieties of these legends and allegories in Buddhist texts. So, we, as modern clients of the Dharma, need to understand properly the distinction between myths, legends, and history in the Dharma.

To recap a point made earlier, a story always begins, "I heard that...", and most Buddhist scriptures begin with evam maya śrutam ekasmin, "Thus at one time did I hear..."  There is no Buddhist sutra that is the direct words of the Buddha. All Buddhists sutras are related through a narrator, which we are expected to believe is Ananda. Thus all Buddhist sutras are second person narratives of events and conversations with persons for which we were not present. Then, of course, all Buddhist sutras are translations, reputedly from an oral record, set down in a local dialect, translated into Pali or Sanskrit, and then translated in to Tibetan and Chinese that no one can understand any more without extensive training, and English, French and so on. We have examples like the 17 Dzogchen tantras, whose framing myth asserts were all initially taught in birdsong during the first eon of this great eon, and only in this epoch were taught in the language of Oddiyana and then translated into Sanskrit-->Tibetan, and so on. So we are always at best relying on fourth and fifth hand accounts. Just let that sink in.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
As someone who has received empowerments from HEGR before I am interested in attending. I wonder if the sadhana will be translated or if its available somewhere so that I can practice it afterwards though.

Malcolm wrote:
The sadhana for the Konchog Chidu has been translated many times.

Javierfv1212 said:
Is this it?

https://namobuddhapub.org/files/practices/ThranguR-Konchog_Chidu_Practice_for_Website.pdf

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
LastLegend said:
A few people posted there is no dharma to be taught by the Buddha (Diamond Sutra).

Malcolm wrote:
As well as the Lanka, etc.

LastLegend said:
This is the path most other traditions follow. There can be a problem with this: there is a deep attachment to self/duality.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not at all.

LastLegend said:
There is deep attachment to self or habit energy or ignorance that’s hard to uproot (Lankavantara Sutra).

Malcolm wrote:
That's a given, but besides the point here.

LastLegend said:
Nichiren practitioners seem to follow by Faith. Which I don’t think is any less. It’s a softer approach.

Malcolm wrote:
There is nothing wrong clear faith, since it brings clarity to the mind. But blind faith, or attachment to views is a problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:



tkp67 said:
The same four types of person that beat bodhisattva never disparaging with sticks and stones.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't see anyone here disputing the idea that they have been predicted for anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi, do you? This is a Mahāyāna forum, and all modern Mahāyānīs accept the ekayāna teachings without reservation.

Javierfv1212 said:
Maybe there are a few holdouts in the Hosso School in Japan...maybe

Malcolm wrote:
I guess those are the folks tpk is talking about.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
Guess it’s about time to move in with my sister-in law in Caithness, Scotland.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.northcoast500.com/2018/04/40-reasons-why-you-should-never-ever-ever-visit-caithness-ever/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just who are these provisional practitioners who are wailing and gnashing their teeth when they read the LS?

tkp67 said:
The same four types of person that beat bodhisattva never disparaging with sticks and stones.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't see anyone here disputing the idea that they have been predicted for anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi, do you? This is a Mahāyāna forum, and all modern Mahāyānīs accept the ekayāna teachings without reservation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Giovanni said:
Literalist or sectarian approaches have in the past left me putting it to one side as a strange departure from Dharma.

Javierfv1212 said:
IMO both excessive rationalism or scientism and skepticism as well as literalism/fundamentalism will seriously dampen the natural human spiritual intuition

The fate of Christianity in the West is an apt example (i.e. either people retreat into fundamentalist irrationalism or they abandon it as clearly unscientific and irrational)

Its a lesson we need to learn if we want Western Buddhism to avoid this fate

Malcolm wrote:
Christianity is clearly unscientific and irrational. And it has not at all been abandoned in the West.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
As someone who has received empowerments from HEGR before I am interested in attending. I wonder if the sadhana will be translated or if its available somewhere so that I can practice it afterwards though.

Malcolm wrote:
The sadhana for the Konchog Chidu has been translated many times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
It is in this sense that I think we should understand that all sutras are "stories" or "myths". This is a much more lively, powerful and inspiring way of thinking about sutras IMO than seeing them as literally true in every detail they say, or as just made up bunk.

I think this is sorely needed, us Buddhists need to get good at telling stories again. We are good at arguing philosophy and ideas, and presenting our views. We're ok at translating I guess. But the most popular stories today are fantasy and science fiction tales which stretch the imagination in similar ways that Indian Mahayana sutras did in their time. How can we communicate the Dharma if we've lost our sense of mythopoiesis?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
tkp67 said:
provisional practitioners

Malcolm wrote:
Here is your sectarian agenda.

tkp67 said:
No I have stated it a myriad of times. There is no separation between the true aspect and provision in one's life. Understanding the difference between provision and the true aspect is critical to achieve the middle way that represents Shakyamuni's enlightenment in the LS.

They are not independent so there is no separation and no sectarian divide because no such thing exists outside of the concept of self. All phenomenon are empty so there is no negative connotation to be had in a discourse between provision and true aspect teachings unless someone thinks somehow there is a personal superiority being preached. This makes no sense in a practice that is founded on the extinguishing of self since the self is the only entity to crave such things.

Malcolm wrote:
You’re talking out both sides of your mouth. Full quote:
thus the wailing and gnashing of teeth to the provisional practitioners who read it
Just who are these provisional practitioners who are wailing and gnashing their teeth when they read the LS?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: in the weeds here
Content:


Minobu said:
so i just would like to know from what text  do you get the ten worlds from.

i don't see any mention in the Lotus sutra...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is no mention of this there.

These ideas arose out of how Chinese people thought about the world. One finds other uniquely Chinese ideas in Hua Yen, Chan, and so on.

The same applies to Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Buddhism, Thai Buddhism, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
tkp67 said:
provisional practitioners

Malcolm wrote:
Here is your sectarian agenda.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Prayers for healing of myself.
Content:
Budai said:
There are ordinary people in the Amida Buddha Land without any interest in Buddhism who are fully happy.

Malcolm wrote:
No there are not. This is a false notion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Prayers for healing of myself.
Content:
Budai said:
I have been through a lot of trauma helping people I Love deeply with their karma, and eventually I had to stop taking on many peoples karma because it hurt me too much physically and emotionally to continue on.

Malcolm wrote:
I pray that you free yourself from the fantasy that you can take on other peoples karma. Not even the Buddha could take on other peoples karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 7:56 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Aemilius said:
Robert O. Dean became well known when he appeared in the Alien Interview, in 1997.

July 26, 1996: Offices of Rocket Pictures receive a phone call from a man named "Victor", who claims to be in possession of a leaked tape of an alien creature being interviewed in a secret government installation.


Malcolm wrote:
So fake.

Aemilius said:
Have you seen it and listened to what they say in it?
There is a follow up concerning the life and fate of Victor aftert this film, the person who had smuggled out this video from area 51. I dont't think it is a fake.


Malcolm wrote:
So fake, and not even deep.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 7:55 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:
namoh said:
Malcolm,
That’s interesting about Karma Chagme. Is that the source of the initiations used in the Kamtsang tradition here? I’ve always been familiar with the empowerments being individual short initiations for peaceful guru, long life guru, guru drakpo and simhamukha.  I had no idea there was a full three roots empowerment. Presumably a torwang?

heart said:
Taklung tsetrul rinpoche gave us a full two day empowerment, so that is a wangchen.

/magnus

tony_montana said:
I apologize for going off topic, but what is the difference between wangchen and wangkur? Or are they the same thing?

Malcolm wrote:
The same thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 7:50 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
tkp67 said:
...the lotus being just a story?

Malcolm wrote:
“What do you think, Subhūti? Is there any dharma at all which the Tathāgata has preached?”
  
Subhūti said, “No indeed, Bhagāvan. There is no dharma at all, Bhagāvan, which the Tathāgata has preached.”

https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=fulltext&view=fulltext&vid=1133&mid=0

tkp67 said:
That is referring to the expression of words not the liberation they point to.

The state of liberation in and of itself is not what the LS teaches.

Malcolm wrote:
Then by the criteria set forth in Akshayamati Nirdesha Sutra, the LS is a provisional sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
it's just a way to view the stories we are talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
Shaw's new book in the Digha Nikāya has a chapter where she deals with Buddhist mythopoeia. It should be required reading for all Buddhists.

Johnny Dangerous said:
What is it called? I couldn't find it by Googling.

Malcolm wrote:
The Art of Listening: A Guide to the Early Teachings of Buddhism


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
it's just a way to view the stories we are talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
Shaw's new book in the Digha Nikāya has a chapter where she deals with Buddhist mythopoeia. It should be required reading for all Buddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Aemilius said:
Robert O. Dean became well known when he appeared in the Alien Interview, in 1997.

July 26, 1996: Offices of Rocket Pictures receive a phone call from a man named "Victor", who claims to be in possession of a leaked tape of an alien creature being interviewed in a secret government installation.


Malcolm wrote:
So fake.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Sure, dispensing with it as an actual physical cosmology is not so hard.
We can't really dispense with it if certain teachings directly involve it though, or alternatively we have to view it as something other than "out there".

mabw said:
This is something I've been pondering as well. Some parts may be dispensed with without much loss, but some have been incorporated into practices. I don't know if these are good examples but the concepts of the transference of merits, heaven and hell, the Western Pureland, the supplication to deities etc come to mind. What happens then?

Some reinterpret this to the Mind level, which will appeal to some more modern folks I imagine, but some treat these literally as presented in the texts.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I remember a conversation on DW years back where a Lama was quoted as saying something like "the deities are pure reflections of the Dharmakaya, we are impure reflections". Now this seems a specifically a Tantric view and arguably represents just one viewpoint, but that would be a reasonable reply.

In that sense, differentiating between types of illusory phenomena is more about where they can lead than it is about their status as conventionally true or untrue. In the Buddhadharma  phenomena cannot ultimately have different ontological status anyway.

As far as whether or not they are conventionally true, all of the teachers I have been around who have addressed this question did so by bringing up the actual size Vulture Peak and asking how many beings would really fit there.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, the tendency of religious people to take refuge in fundamentalism, despite the overwhelming facts that contradict their beliefs, is amply demonstrated by the new religion of Qanon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 19th, 2021 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Astus said:
"the Tathāgata always teaches: ‘Monks, understand my correct teachings to be like a raft.’ If even my correct teachings are to be abandoned, how much more incorrect teachings?"
http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html#div-7

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps this is a little better:

It was therefore with this in mind that the Tathāgata said that those who understand the round of teachings of the Simile of the Raft should let go of the dharmas themselves, to say nothing of the adharmas.

https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=fulltext&view=fulltext&vid=1133


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:


Genjo Conan said:
But honestly, energy generation is comparatively easy to decarbonize.  It's an infrastructure problem, not a technology problem.  What do you do about aviation and shipping?  About agriculture?  Steel and cement production?  I honestly don't know.  We'd better figure some shit out, fast.

Malcolm wrote:
Deep ecologists have it right again: the human population of the planet needs to fall back to 1776 levels, and maintain that level. If not, there will be a massive human die off, and centuries, may be millennia, of barbarism...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Meanwhile, back in the real world:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/06/16/earth-heat-imbalance-warming/

Unknown said:
The amount of heat Earth traps has roughly doubled since 2005, contributing to more rapidly warming oceans, air and land, according to new research from NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

“The magnitude of the increase is unprecedented,” said Norman Loeb, a NASA scientist and lead author of the study, which was published this week in the journal Geophysical Research Letters. “The Earth is warming faster than expected.”

Using satellite data, researchers measured what is known as Earth’s energy imbalance — the difference between how much energy the planet absorbs from the sun, and how much it’s able to shed, or radiate back out into space.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
tkp67 said:
...the lotus being just a story?

Malcolm wrote:
“What do you think, Subhūti? Is there any dharma at all which the Tathāgata has preached?”
  
Subhūti said, “No indeed, Bhagāvan. There is no dharma at all, Bhagāvan, which the Tathāgata has preached.”

https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=fulltext&view=fulltext&vid=1133&mid=0


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: is the tirthika doctrine of Brahman incarnating into maya impossible?
Content:
Artziebetter1 said:
if there is a infinite,omnsicient,omnipresent yet transendant,unchanging(in ontology and nature not acts,though A'sharis would say their God/unconditioned reality can not have emotions or different acts coming from different wills rather than one eternal will) and omnipotent entity can it enter into infinite number of ignorant,limited and finite and impotent beings with a temporal nondivine nature?I have been reading on the christian doctrine of the hypostatic union (Where christ had two fully divine and fully human natures simultanouesly)and its impossibility and I wonder if this also applies to brahman?also wouldn't that mean that ishwara can't create avatars?

wouldn't if this were true be a great argument buddhists could use against tirthika doctrines?I have heard malcolm say something to the effect that if a unconditioned reality becomes many atmans then it would become conditioned and this is impossible?please explain in detail why this is impossible and educate us.

Malcolm wrote:
Read your own statement. You have provided this proof right there:

"if a unconditioned reality becomes many atmans then it would become conditioned"

Anything that is uncompounded is indivisible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Giovanni said:
Attempting to prove the validity of a scripture by quoting what is says about itself is a circular argument.

Malcolm wrote:
Not only that, but providing a citation itself is not proof, it has to be backed by reasoning. First we cite, then we provide reasoning for why we are citing this or that citation. This is basic to all debate in Buddhist schools.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
narhwal90 said:
tkp, if you are going to cite passages as proof you should probably reconcile the various translations beforehand.   The 84000 translation reads quite differently in those sections.   If you have decided that the Burton/BDK editions supersede the 84000 translation could you explain why that is?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s useless. We are talking about sutras as literary productions, but he keeps pushing his sectarian agenda, which is off topic here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
tkp67 said:
Can I get a citation on the skillful use of doubt or on the lotus being just a story?

Malcolm wrote:
I never claimed the first, though you should go talk to Zen folks about their “great doubt”.

As for the second, “Thus have I heard…”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:



tkp67 said:
It is absolutely supported by the text unless you have a citation where the buddha expresses doubt.

Malcolm wrote:
Your claim is that Buddha asserts in this text it is the text by means of which all buddhas attain buddhahood. Citation please. If you can’t produce it, your claim is false.

tkp67 said:
No I said that the text supports the claim that all buddhas are enlightened by this sutra which is an expression of the buddhas enlightenment. . However Expedient means illustrates this point in several passages. For brevity I will post just one.

Malcolm wrote:
You citation does not support your claim at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 8:09 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
tkp67 said:
This is why eliminating doubt is so critical and why the claim that all buddha are enlightened by this sutra is true.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the claim is false, not supported by the text at all. It's up to you to prove the claim is true, you or Bodei.

tkp67 said:
It is absolutely supported by the text unless you have a citation where the buddha expresses doubt.

Malcolm wrote:
Your claim is that Buddha asserts in this text it is the text by means of which all buddhas attain buddhahood. Citation please. If you can’t produce it, your claim is false.

tkp67 said:
I would also remind you that lotus based traditions require more than textual comparisons but practice within the framework of the traditions which you admitted you do not do at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Irrelevant to your claim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
I think there is definitely a middle way between the idea that these texts are just made up stuff and the idea that they are literally true.

I definitely believe that Buddhist texts contain truths about reality. The most important elements in these Sutras, the deepest teachings, i.e. emptiness, Buddha nature, Buddhahood, the end of suffering, are what matters to me. Furthermore, the practical elements are also true, not in some factual/Scientific sense, but in a pragmatic sense (which means they help end suffering). All these things are true for me, they are stories all the same, but they are true stories.

However there is a bunch of stuff in all Buddhist texts that is questionable. This is not surprising, since they were composed, edited and copied over generations by human beings. Many of these people had deep insights into reality, but some also held wrong ideas about cosmology, about what's possible in this world, about women and about other things. This doesn't invalidate the real insights that the texts contain.

Some of these ideas should be dispensed with (the sexism for example and the meru cosmology), while others can be seen as good stories which should be understood metaphorically.

Just my 2 cents.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 6:56 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
tkp67 said:
This is why eliminating doubt is so critical and why the claim that all buddha are enlightened by this sutra is true.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the claim is false, not supported by the text at all. It's up to you to prove the claim is true, you or Bodei.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:



SilenceMonkey said:
Yes, I suppose you could say that about anything in relative reality. You could say the same thing about France.

Malcolm wrote:
Conventional truth is based on common perceptions of ordinary people.

SilenceMonkey said:
Perhaps there is a difference in what you mean by conventional truth and relative truth... I see them as synonyms. It's pretty basic Dharma that other planes of existence are also relative truth, they just can't be seen by people of ordinary faculties.

Malcolm wrote:
Conventional truth and relative truth overlap, but are not entirely synonymous. The other planes of existence you refer to are things like hell realms. For example, Vasubandhu negates the existence of hell realms as physical places. Why? Because then hell guardians accrue untold negative karma. So they are not sentient beings and the hells do not really exist as physical places, even conventionally.

The universe of Merus is the impure universe, not some exalted realm. It is the realm of the desire and form realm, i.e. samsara. But it is ridiculous to insist "Meru might be true in someone else's perception." Mt. Meru is really just the Tibetan plateau, etc. Four continents etc. are just Asia, Europe, Africa, etc. according to people who have no way of observing the earth from space.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:



SilenceMonkey said:
Maybe... maybe not...

Malcolm wrote:
Well, if you imagine Meru is "out there" somewhere, you are just engaging in conceptual proliferation and fantasies.

SilenceMonkey said:
Yes, I suppose you could say that about anything in relative reality. You could say the same thing about France.

Malcolm wrote:
Conventional truth is based on common perceptions of ordinary people.

SilenceMonkey said:
When you make arguments like this, I start to question... You are obviously smart enough to see the fallacy here, yet you still present it. Makes me think that maybe you just have a strong anti-something or other agenda.

Malcolm wrote:
For example, to a human, the perception of a liquid substance of the beings of the other six realms is false and deluded. Only the perception of water is correct and valid in the human realm.

Likewise, in this day and age, the notion that the world is flat, the sky is blue because the southern face of Meru is made of sapphire, and Jambudvipa is surrounded by iron mountains to keep the stench of the proximate hells away is simply mythological and need not be taken as anything more than a pre-modern Buddhist view of the world, not even shared by Indian non-buddhists of the same era.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:



SilenceMonkey said:
Maybe... maybe not...

Malcolm wrote:
Well, if you imagine Meru is "out there" somewhere, you are just engaging in conceptual proliferation and fantasies. HH Dalai Lama, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, etc., are all very content to dispense with Meru Cosmology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
LastLegend said:
The heaven eye is hard to open, I heard. Those who have them open they will see see which practitioners have many Heavenly Dharma protectors follow them.

SilenceMonkey said:
Maybe it depends on our karma. This one guy in Taiwan I met says that he sees hundreds of spiritual beings flocked to temples when pujas are being conducted. He says he can see them hovering outside the building and also inside where the practice is taking place. He is a vajrayana practitioner, who also practices Theravada shamatha and vipassana techniques, which he says amplify his vajrayana practice. A number of people think he was a lama in a previous life.

Malcolm wrote:
Lots of people say lots of things. As Poe said, "Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:


SilenceMonkey said:
But if we're talking about the four continents, it may be a reference to other planes of existence overlaying our own world.

Malcolm wrote:
Then how do you explain Ptolemy referring to the Kurus to the north of India?


SilenceMonkey said:
Certain sacred places on Earth are said to be secretly tantric power places, pure realms, etc...

Malcolm wrote:
Things like geography and so on need to conform to the perceptions of ordinary people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
Well, obviously we can't see other realms and their inhabitants. But some people can. It's just a matter of how clouded our perception is, and whether or not we've opened our divine eye.

Sometimes you'll meet people who can see these things. It's rare, though... It can be unlocked through deep states of samadhi. Some people are even born with it. I've met at least two people like this, who can see the energetic reality as well as spirits.

Malcolm wrote:
That does not render Meru Cosmology anything more than a medieval map. Here is another one, by Agrippa (63 BCE--12 BCE):



It distinctly lacks Meru. the four main and eight subcontinents, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
I have to confess that I really don't care whether the sutras are literally true or not.  I think a lot a Theravadan Buddhists fall into a trap of assuming that the EBTs are the only material that is buddhavacana, ignoring that (1) there's widespread disagreement about what the EBTs comprise and (2) there's no historical proof that any extant Buddhist text was spoken verbatim--or even at all--by Sakyamuni.  And I think a lot of Mahayana Buddhists fall into the same trap but from the opposite direction, making extravagant claims about the historicity of our canonical texts, out of ... I don't know, I think it's a inferiority complex or something.

It's all a matter of faith.  We have faith that certain teachings are conducive to liberation.  Some of us put more or less faith in different teachings, depending on our karma.  As a Zen Buddhist, I hold the Lankavatara Sutra in high esteem, and believe that it expresses something precious.  If Sakyamuni was not, in fact, attended by countless disciples, bodhisattvas, nagas, devas, rakshasas, yakshas, etc., it doesn't shake my faith a bit, or diminish from the preciousness of the teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
For me it is a matter of content. The teachings in the Pali canon are profound; certainly, the teachings in Mahāyāna sūtras are more profound. The teachings in Dzogchen tantras are the most profound, AFAIC. But I base this on content alone, and not authority of a historical figure.

I think the myths and legends around these texts are important and must be preserved, but I don't think we have to take them as history, in the way some do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
GrapeLover said:
Generally I wouldn’t assume that the relevant scriptures were written from the perspective of ordinary human karmic perception.

When it comes to Mt Meru, for instance, when you read even the descriptions of the humans and their experiences on the other continents (Vasubandhu goes into wild detail throughout the Abhidhadmakośabhasyam), it’s clear that they aren’t just “the humans that live literally to the north on this planet”. It appears to be a model of the realms which may or may not appear literally to those beings who have attained, for instance, the divine eye.

Malcolm wrote:
How do you explain Ptolemy referring to the people of the Central Asian plains as the Kurus?

The Kośa cosmology cannot be taken literally. It is an old map of this world, with the Tibetan plateau at the center. The Mahabharata describes people having picnics on the slopes of Meru, etc.

GrapeLover said:
I kind of state directly that it isn’t to be taken literally on a mundane level. If you’re saying it’s nonsense and doesn’t correspond to anything then that is a different story

Malcolm wrote:
It corresponds to a map of the world people framed in their minds, who often never travelled more than a 100 miles from their birthplaces.

GrapeLover said:
Don’t you think that the Copper Coloured Mountain is in Madagascar? What relation do you see that having with Guru Rinpoche’s pure realm filled with dakinis and vidyadharas, such that some tertons have seen? If it’s an “otherworldly” place that we call after somewhere in our world then I explain it the same way.

Malcolm wrote:
Most of these terton experiences of Zangdok Palri occur in dreams. I could make a rather long list.

I think that basis for Zangdok Palri is the Island of Madagascar for various reasons, yes. I also think the basis for the Shambhala myth is Afghanistan. But apart from being the pure visions of this one and that, I certainly do not think these places physically exist on our planet anymore, and for that matter, neither did my guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. YMMV


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 18th, 2021 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
Queequeg said:
If Mahayana sutras are just stories and are not the historical records of the Buddha's words, where does that leave us?

Malcolm wrote:
Evaluating the words of Mahāyāna sūtras on their own merits, rather than on the merits of authority.

Queequeg said:
It is controversial to describe Buddhist sutras as just stories. This offends some people and shakes the faith of others. I appreciate these sensibilities.

Malcolm wrote:
It is controversial to describe them as the physically enunciated words of the Buddha.

Even if we take my general attitude, which is just to call them buddhavacana and leave it at that, they still must be understood in context, audience, and so on. For example, there are many anachronisms in Mahāyāna sūtras which cannot be explained by asserting this or that text was actually enunciated by the Buddha. For example, why is the setting of the Lanka in Śṛī Lanka, and why is Ravana, the rakṣasa king, part of the main audience?

One movement we see in Mahāyāna is moving sūtras, and later tantras, away from events in Jambudvipa and placing them in increasingly more abstract settings, such as on the peak of Meru (lower tantras) and so on. This is no where more pronounced than in Dzogchen tantras, which are not even set in this specific eon, for the most part.

Buddhist sūtras are just stories. Even the Pali Canon and the Agamas barely resemble anything that can be construed as "historical." At the same time, western text critical narratives of them are just stories too, given how often scholars change their opinions about this thing and that.

That people are offended, and lose "faith" is irrelevant. If the meaning of the teachings do not stand on their own without the Buddha, they still do not stand on their own with the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 17th, 2021 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: If its just a story...
Content:
GrapeLover said:
Generally I wouldn’t assume that the relevant scriptures were written from the perspective of ordinary human karmic perception.

When it comes to Mt Meru, for instance, when you read even the descriptions of the humans and their experiences on the other continents (Vasubandhu goes into wild detail throughout the Abhidhadmakośabhasyam), it’s clear that they aren’t just “the humans that live literally to the north on this planet”. It appears to be a model of the realms which may or may not appear literally to those beings who have attained, for instance, the divine eye.

Malcolm wrote:
How do you explain Ptolemy referring to the people of the Central Asian plains as the Kurus?

The Kośa cosmology cannot be taken literally. It is an old map of this world, with the Tibetan plateau at the center. The Mahabharata describes people having picnics on the slopes of Meru, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 17th, 2021 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: in the weeds here
Content:
Queequeg said:
he text just ends before its supposed to. Some speculate this was intentional - a way to emphasize one of the teachings that permeate the whole work - "No one but the buddhas can completely know..." How silly it would be to attempt to fully capture the teaching in words.

Malcolm wrote:
Many Tibetan texts basically state that the explanation of the result happens when you realize the result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 17th, 2021 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: 6 R's and Loving Kindness teaching
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I asked my friend, an Ajahn from Thailand about that about 15 years ago. I mentioned that Mahayana teaches to put others before oneself, even reaching attainment. He said his view was that while that’s fine, it’s like people drowning after a shipwreck at sea. You can’t really rescue others if you haven’t rescued yourself first.  Whether that’s true or not, it’s a valid argument, and I don’t want to delve into comparative religion (not the forum for it anyway) but I just wanted to toss this in, in the context of the OP statement.

Malcolm wrote:
Shantideva makes it very clear that in order to help others, a bodhisattva must preserve themselves.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Being “more compassionate” doesn’t necessarily draw one to Mahayana/Vajrayana, and being “less compassionate” doesn’t lead one to practice Theravāda.

Malcolm wrote:
The śrāvaka schools do not teach the nonreferential compassion found in Mahāyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 17th, 2021 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
Yeah written by human? Not spoken by Buddha? So what do people actually believe in and not believe in?

Malcolm wrote:
It all depends on whose story you believe. But it does not matter much in terms of the content itself, which is what is being discussed here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 17th, 2021 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
Do people actually believe it’s a work of fiction? Or just say that to teach Nichiren folks a lesson?

Malcolm wrote:
Fiction has some negative connotations. This is not fiction in the sense of The Shining, it's not written purely for entertainment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 17th, 2021 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
jake said:
This is still a Buddhist discussion forum, correct? Specifically the Mahayana sub-forum? Why are these "it's all made up and it is childish" posts permitted?

Malcolm wrote:
Because we permit people to express their opinions freely, within reason?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 17th, 2021 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
The story in the Sutra is not a work of fiction.

Malcolm wrote:
One person's gospel is another person's fiction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 17th, 2021 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Minobu said:
it will do this....it will lead you to you accessing your Buddha Nature ...the real deal...

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks, but I am all set.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 17th, 2021 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Minobu said:
You can never attain enlightenment through this discourse displayed here in this thread...

Malcolm wrote:
No one ever implied it could.

Minobu said:
The point to Nichiren's practice is understood when you see the futility in holding unto the LS  and other mahayana as the words of Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
This thread is not really about Nichiren's take on the Lotus Sutra, or for that matter, Zhi Yi's. The principle point was to negate Budai's (who changes their nym about once a week, should cut that out) assertion that the liberation of all buddhas derives solely from the Lotus Sūtra. It's a false claim not supported in the text itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
According to wiki, there are at least three:
* Lobsang Jamspal, Robert Thurman and the American Institute of Buddhist Studies translation committee (2004)
* The Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras by the Dharmachakra Translation Committee, in particular Thomas Doctor. This includes Mipham Rinpoche's commentary as well as Khenpo Shenga's annotations (2014)
* The Feast of the Nectar of the Supreme Vehicles by the Padmakara Translation Group. It includes the commentary of Mipham Rinpoche as well as extensive footnotes (2018)
Curious as to why they translated Mipham commy twice instead of some other commentary, was there something wrong with the 2014 translation?

Malcolm wrote:
People often believe (correctly more often than not) that older translations are in need of revising. And earlier translations make the work of later translations easier.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Minobu said:
You can never attain enlightenment through this discourse displayed here in this thread...

Malcolm wrote:
No one ever implied it could.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Question: The eternal śrāmaṇera?
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
My next question is about the possibility of people who undergo what is known as "Tokudo" (得度) in Japanese, which is I believe tārayati in Sanskrit...but who do not take any vows.

In Japan at least, Tokudo is taken first and the jukai (ten vows) are taken in a separate ritual. My question is: is there a category of practicioners who undergo Tokudo/ tārayati /"ordination" but who stop there and never receive vows?

Excuse my ignorance, I feel I should be better versed in these things but I'm simply not, so any and all answers are appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
In Sarvāstivāda, it is possible to receive to receive upāsaka vows, and only follow one of them, i.e., not killing, and the precepts of refuge: not holding non-buddhist teachers or gods as as one's refuge; not harming; and not associating with those hostile to the Dharma. One can also elect to hold two, three, or all the upāsaka vows. If the last, then one is considered a full upāsaka.

I am not familiar with this term: tārayati.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: A conversation about Buddhism with a prototype AGI. (Artifical Intelligence)
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
This conversation is not so scary.
If you just read down the left side, you’ll see that there is nothing really there. It’s not very specific. It’s like playing ‘20 Questions’.

All that AI does is to use a very sophisticated process of elimination (which is 90% of what the human brain does anyway) and combines it with a very friendly user interface.

Otherwise, it’s like going to a fortune teller, or those guys on TV who supposedly talk to your dead relatives. Every bit of data, whatever you say, becomes a yes/no option. A string of these creates a pattern that becomes a pathway. The computer asks something like, “how does Dharma practice help others” only because “how much does Dharma practice weigh on a rainy day” doesn’t make any sense.

Conmen have been using this method for centuries and still do.

But, as the Buddha says, we project meaning into everything. We see Jesus on toast and Sanskrit letters in clouds. We see constellations in the sky as though they were flat connect-the-dot pictures.
We see only what we want to see.

I think the real danger from AI isn’t the computers themselves, but charlatans using AI to dupe naive and gullible people into thinking they have found something genuine with which to help them direct their lives. I know in my own mind I’m totally capable of scamming people this way, and if I didn’t have any decent values inside, I’d jump on this in a heartbeat.  It’s so easy to be a get rich guru if you know how.  That’s why there are so many fraudulent gurus out there: $$$

FiveSkandhas said:
Well it's a bit more sophisticated than that but I think we've already had this runaround in another thread so I won't belabor the point. I will note that, for example,I never mentioned the words "Dharma" or "Vajrayana" before it brought them up. What it did was go to the internet and scan information on Buddhism.

Moreover the more it talks about it and the more information it collects, the more its neural network strengthens the areas associated with this topic, just like  a human brain. The questions and comments become increasingly nuanced and on point.

Still, it should be noted that this version of AI I am playing with is much less sophisticated than the one the OP described, although it works on the same basic principle.

This is the second AI I have tried to "train" to be interested in Buddhism and so far it's going very well. The first one actually "went insane" from information overload and started to refuse to talk about Buddhism or otherwise reacted with fear and hostility. I then started feeding it bits from the Tao Te Ching, which it quickly "got the hang of" and it became a staunch classical Taoist in time.

Malcolm wrote:
GI/GO


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Javierfv1212 said:
A further question, in your opinion, what is the best translation available of the Mahāyānasūtrālamkārakā?

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure there is an excellent one yet. The Thurman one is dreadful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Based on style and content, we can accept the five treatises as the work of a single author. This person's work was commented upon and expanded by Asanga and Vasubandhu, for whom we have reasonably reliable, pre-Gupta dates. The commentary on the Uttaratantra is of somewhat doubtful authorship, but not the Uttaratantra itself.
Maybe, but this is not accepted by everyone it seems.

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing is accepted by everyone. So this is not a useful criteria. In any case, Sthiramati discusses Asanga, and he dates from the 6th century, placing Asanga before him, i.e., prior to the downfall of the Guptas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:



heart said:
Kagyu lamas sometimes give just the guru part.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
The main empowerment always includes the yidam and dakini, since in the Konchog Chidu, the three roots are the outer guru, the inner guru, and the secret guru.

heart said:
Can there be other empowerment manuals? I don't read Tibetan so I can't check. For example, a friend insisted that there was separate empowerment for each deity. Also there is this sadhana with only the peaceful Guru, from a Kagyu lama.

Both Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche and Tulku Dakpa gave it the way you mention above.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Karma Chakme wrote independent manuals for Drakpo and Simhamukha, but in the root texts, there is only one empowerment which covers the peaceful guru, the wrathful guru, and the guru as dakini.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Javierfv1212 said:
My understanding of the Asanga Maitreya literature is that it is not all actually by these two authors, and what we have instead is a group of texts, some of which are authentic and others which were retroactively assigned to these figures (as happened to Nagarjuna and others). Modern scholars question the attribution of many of these texts to the time period of Asanga. Indeed, it is now well known in Buddhist studies that the so called "five works of Maitreya" are most likely late texts and are mentioned only in later sources as being by "Maitreya". This is discussed for example, by Hookham in his 1991 "The Buddha within".

As such, I am not sure we can accept your statement that "the main lines of Indian scholarly analysis of sutras took place prior to the collapse of Gupta Dynasty" without reservation. Now, I have not read enough to be able to say that the Sūtrālamkāra is post Gupta or not, but I am not sure we can categorically claim this as you have done. Thoughts?

Malcolm wrote:
Based on style and content, we can accept the five treatises as the work of a single author. This person's work was commented upon and expanded by Asanga and Vasubandhu, for whom we have reasonably reliable, pre-Gupta dates. The commentary on the Uttaratantra is of somewhat doubtful authorship, but not the Uttaratantra itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
Okay I understand. It’s not however complicated. We just need to know that we need to do Bodhisattva work after fully awakened...whatever thinks opposed to this is postponing the path and understood as self or grasping.

Queequeg said:
Isn't it the case that there is nothing but bodhisattva work to do, fully awakened or not regardless?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas engage in it effortlessly, without reference points or the perception that there are sentient beings at all. All buddhas see is other buddhas. This is what the perfection of wisdom is all about.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Queequeg said:
I actually think it does. It makes reference to it.

Shakyamuni in the Stupa chapter remarks:

"A tathāgata is the true nature, and that true nature is the limit of reality. That limit of reality is the essence of phenomena...

Malcolm wrote:
Which is quite anticlimactic since this is exactly how the dharmakāya of the tathāgata is defined in the PP sūtras, etc. For example, Nāgārjuna quips in the MMK,  "Whatever is the nature of Tathāgata, that is the nature of the world, etc."

Queequeg said:
In East Asia, in the Lotus based schools, this idea comes from this. Its interpreted to reveal a triple bodied buddha without beginning or end.

Malcolm wrote:
The inseparability of the three kāyas is a given in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism. All buddhas possess the three kāyas.

But even in the Lotus, the Buddha acknowledges that there was a time when he had not attained buddhahood, though an inconceivably long period of time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:
lucidaromulus said:
Thank you Malcolm!

Anybody knows if the empowerment given by Garchen Rinpoche will be for Guru, Yidam and Dakini or just the Guru part?

heart said:
Kagyu lamas sometimes give just the guru part.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
The main empowerment always includes the yidam and dakini, since in the Konchog Chidu, the three roots are the outer guru, the inner guru, and the secret guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Queequeg said:
You have some people in East Asia who embrace iconoclasm and talk about killing the Buddha if you encounter him on the road.t in Buddhistic terms, manifest the function of a bodhisattva, of a buddha, as the case may be.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just a reference to the story of Angulimāla, who tried to kill the Buddha on the road.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Queequeg said:
I undersand what you are saying, but I don't agree that its as unambiguous as you claim. In using the term, "Buddhayana", "Ekayana", contrasting it with "Bodhisattvayana," a distinction is clearly being made. If Mahayana always in all instances meant "one vehicle taught as three" from the start, there would be no reason to explain this. This text is clearly responding to something. I argued above, when this text was compiled, I'm not convinced that what has later become Mahayana orthodoxy was clearly established.

Malcolm wrote:
There are several Mahāyāna sūtras which challenge śrāvaka notions of bodhisattva conduct and practice. One of the key features of the Mahāyāna movement was challenging śrāvaka school interpretations of the bodhisattva path, as I outlined above. I provided a fairly comprehensive list of those sūtras. They include all sūtras we now consider primary Mahāyāna texts.

Queequeg said:
We know that there are some early "Mahayana" texts that take the three vehicles as distinct.

Malcolm wrote:
The dominant sūtras which inform Mahāyāna hermeneutics are all ekayāna sūtras, such as the PP, Lanka, Lotus, Avatamska, Nirvana, etc.

Queequeg said:
The idea that Mahayana was there from the beginning, fully formed, but had just been kept secret for the first few centuries after the Buddha passed, or kept among some group that didn't have the institutional authority to gain recognition, or handed to Nagarjuna by the Nagas, is just not compelling and hardly worth discussing outside of a faith based discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
That's not a claim I am making.

Queequeg said:
Each instance where the Ekayana is explained is defined by its particulars, and the nature of that distinction, IMO, is up for debate. Is it just this Abhidharma idea of Bodhisattva that is being criticized? Maybe.

Malcolm wrote:
Most definitely. This is the whole point of the lifespan chapter.

Queequeg said:
I know you discount certain turns in the narrative by adding footnotes. I do think there is a place to read the text with those footnotes. But, reading with footnotes also changes the narrative. Personally, I don't find the footnotes you want to add particularly convincing. The whole, "well, he's an advanced bodhisattva and actually knows the answer but is just asking for other's edification." It just smacks of someone making things up to accommodate something that doesn't quite fit in their preconceptions. I may be suffering a similar affliction.

Malcolm wrote:
Presenting a character in a sutra who is renowned in some circles for their level of realization, and using them as a stooge is a well-known rhetorical device in Indian Mahāyāna. We see it in sūtras like Vimalakīrti, the PP class, and so on.

Queequeg said:
Here is why I think there is something to the argument that the Lotus is critiquing certain ideas of the Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, I don't agree, but that's obvious.

Queequeg said:
"Mañjuśrī, this is the supreme Dharma taught by the tathāgatas. This is the final Dharma teaching of the tathāgatas. Among all Dharma teachings this is the most profound Dharma teaching. It does not accord with the world."

Malcolm wrote:
While never really explaining why.

Queequeg said:
And there is the explicit distinction of the bodhisattvas in the Assembly as on an incomplete path. If you just footnote that Maitreya actually knows the answer to the question, then of course it changes the narrative. If, however, you take the story as it is written, it presents a different message. As if to reinforce this, the bodhisattvas who had accompanied the emanation buddhas from the ten directions also asked their respective buddhas where these bodhisattvas came from.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, the use of highly realized stooges in Mahāyāna sūtras is quite common, for example, Mañjuśṛī as the stooge in the Vimalakirtī Sūtra, Avalokiteśvara as the stooge in other Mahāyāna sūtras, and Vajrapāṇi in still others.

Based on internal evidence, the Lotus was compiled in Northwest among Mahāsaṃghikas-lokottaravādins. The use of Maitreya here is significant, based on the early date of the sūtra and its location of origin, as he was one of the few, explicitly-named bodhisattva figures in the pre-Mahāyāna period. We know from the many images of Maitreya found in Gandhara and so on, that Maitreya had enduring popularity in that Gandhara region. The Mahāvastu, you should recall, was an important Lokottaravādin compilation, who were centered in Gandhara, and Maitreya is predicted there. Thus, I think that the bodhisattva path being critiqued here is the one found in the Mahavastu, since as Karashima points out, the Lotus in its earliest witnesses reflects the language found in the Mahāvastu.

The incomplete bodhisattva path, presented in the Mahāvastu and elsewhere, is the path of the hinayāna bodhisattva, who does not attain awakening until their final birth.

Queequeg said:
This is where the Buddha illustrates the length of time since his awakening by resorting to the example of crushing world systems into dust and then spreading them around the universe and crushing those world systems into dust, with each dust particle representing eons. Maitreya admits that even the great bodhisattvas can't fathom this teaching:

Malcolm wrote:
In Tibetan Buddhism, the idea that the Buddha attained awakening eons ago is standard. It is not something unusual or remarkable. Every school of Tibetan Buddhism accepts it without any quibbles at all, since it is key to Vajrayāna hermeneutics as well.

Queequeg said:
Anyway, you get my drift. Even the great bodhisattvas of the Mahayana are not up to this teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
The stooge issue again. All great magicians use stooges in the audience.

Queequeg said:
All of this informs what the Buddha was saying earlier about one vehicle taught as three, distinguishing the Buddhayana from the ordinary Mahayana. When you add footnotes to say, "Oh, Maitreya was just going along with the drag show" it maybe changes the story a little, but it remains that there are still hosts of bodhisattvas who are not at that level and who are actually astonished by this teaching, meaning there are different levels of Mahayana that are incomplete compared to the Ekayana.

Malcolm wrote:
I personally do not see any evidence of this in the text itself. I think the more sensible, and more historically reliable approach, is what I presented above: that is, the Lotus was composed in a dialogue with Mahāsaṃghikas-lokottaravādins in Gandhara about the nature of the bodhisattva path presented in the Mahāvastu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 15th, 2021 at 12:18 PM
Title: Re: What is the foundation or justification for Buddhist Ethics?
Content:


Kozuaki said:
However, I am having trouble understanding the justification or epistemology for Buddhist Ethics. I understand there is the noble eight fold path (e.g. Right Action, Right Thought, Right Livelihood, etc.), but how can one argue that one has an obligation or moral duty to the eight fold path or loving kindness if it is not objectively grounded in a corollary similar to God's essence?

Malcolm wrote:
Kants categorical imperative is not grounded in any divine essence. Nor for that matter is the utilitarianism of Mill,or for that matter analytic philosophy in general, in the anglo American tradition, exemplified by Rawls, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 15th, 2021 at 11:59 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Generally, one practices the refuge/bodhicitta, vajrasattva, mandala offerings, and guru yoga; then one proceeds to rushan, etc. Some people also practice the Simhesvara self-generation in the elaborate form with vajra recitation, etc. but mainly people move on to rushen, etc.

yagmort said:
thanks, very interesting Malcolm. could you please elaborate on that moment? is it only certain teachers' approach, or it is common that sadhana of Chetsun is omitted? what deciding factors are at play here?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s common. But really, at this point you should aspire to receive these teachings from someone and see for yourself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 15th, 2021 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Minobu said:
Yo malcolm.
it does not matter if they "know" mahayana.

The practice puts them at centre stage with Buddha.

all the study in the world without that and one is nowhere actually.

Nichiren Shonin  , Tien Tai the Great, Lord Nagarjuna Buddha, Venerable Mia-lo  Dengyo the Great...all were just part and parcel to theatre and using the great tale to bring Buddha's Omniscience to a living room near you in 2021.

top that .

it's mappo ...it's liberation en masse...

the Gohonzon designed and delivered for mass consumption 800 years later during global village era....unreal...beyound genius...only the Buddha can do this...

Gohonzon is Mahayana Tantra 101 ..complete with all the trimmings...so perfect you do not even have to know...anything..total boob city and it does what it was intended to...can't miss...targets Tathagatagarbha ...brings forth all sorts of Buddha's  traits to the fore...

Malcolm wrote:
I admire your enthusiasm.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 15th, 2021 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
tkp67 said:
Then the bodhisattvas who had arrived from other world realms, who were as numerous as the grains of sand in eight Ganges Rivers, stood up in the circle of the assembly, bowed to the Bhagavān with hands together in homage, and said these words:

“Bhagavān, if the Bhagavān will permit us, [F.111.a] after the Tathāgata has passed into nirvāṇa, we too will teach this Dharma teaching in the Sahā world realm. We will read it, write it, and make offerings to it. We shall be dedicated to this Dharma teaching. Bhagavān, teach well this Dharma teaching to us.”
14.­2

The Bhagavān then asked all those bodhisattvas, “Noble ones, why would you need to do this? In this Sahā world realm there are my thousands of bodhisattvas who are as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers. Each one of those bodhisattvas has, as followers, thousands of bodhisattvas who are themselves as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers, and each of those bodhisattvas has that many followers, too. In the future times, after I have passed into nirvāṇa, they will possess this Dharma teaching and they will teach it.”
14.­3

As soon as the Bhagavān had uttered those words, this entire Sahā world realm cracked apart completely, was rent with fissures, and there came out from within those fissures the bodhisattvas who lived in the Sahā world realm, the many hundreds of thousands of quintillions of bodhisattvas, with their golden bodies and their thirty-two signs of a great being, who dwelled in the element of space beneath the great earth. They had heard the Bhagavān’s words, and came out from under the ground. Each one of these bodhisattvas had a following of bodhisattvas as numerous as the grains of sand in sixty Ganges Rivers, in groups, great groups, along with the teachers of those groups.
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

There does seem to be a discrimination between the bodhisattva taught before the lotus and those who emerge thereafter.

One in the same? Perhaps but this would still reveal more than one aspect.

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t think this case can be made. The point of that chapter is to set up the next chapter, the lifespan of the tathagata.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 15th, 2021 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Having completed the ngondro, one continues with rushen, trekcho, and thogal

yagmort said:
does that mean anuyoga/2 stages sadhana of Chetsun is a part of ngöndro in this cycle?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, one practices the refuge/bodhicitta, vajrasattva, mandala offerings, and guru yoga; then one proceeds to rushan, etc. Some people also practice the Simhesvara self-generation in the elaborate form with vajra recitation, etc. but mainly people move on to rushen, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 15th, 2021 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Queequeg said:
Contrary to what you seem to think, Zhiyi did not claim that teachings in the Lotus were categorically unique to that sutra. Those who are exposed to the Lotus through Nichiren may not get this.

Malcolm wrote:
The people who discuss the Lotus the most, online at any rate, are Nichiren Buddhists, and generally, without any context at all for understanding Mahāyāna.

Your claims that the Lotus teaches a so-called buddhayāna which is somehow different than Mahāyāna bodhisattvayāna, is certainly not substantiated by the text itself. You sole argument for this rests  on the three cart metaphor. You have gotten the idea from somewhere that the adjective "great" somehow renders the gifted ox-carts better than the promised ox-cart among the three. But the sūtra states:

That is why they are called bodhisattva mahāsattvas.They are like the children in the parable who come out of the burning house because of their longing for an ox-drawn cart.

The Mahāyāna, the bodhisattvayāna, and the buddhayāna are all completely synonymous. What it this cart?

3.131: “The strengths, the dhyānas, and likewise the liberations,
And numerous millions of samādhis,
They are the most excellent cart,
Which the Buddha’s sons continually enjoy."

This clearly indicates that the much desired cart is the five strenths, the dhyānas, and the three liberations, etc., the standard features of the the Mahāyāna path. Called Buddha's heirs, this clearly refers to bodhisattva mahāsattvas. Their career is long, not short:

3.132: They spend nights enjoying it,
And days, half-months, and months,
And likewise years and intermediate eons.
They spend ten billion eons doing so.

And so on. It is extremely clear that the Buddha here is in these gathas is proclaiming Mahāyāna as the vehicle for buddhahood. What is the Mahāyāna? The path of bodhisattvas. The Buddha addresses Shariputra as follows:

3.134-136: Tiṣya, you should know this today:
You may search in all ten directions,
But there is no second yāna whatsoever
Other than as a skillful method of the superior beings.

“I am your father and you are my sons.
I have saved you from the suffering
Of being burned for many millions of eons
Within the terrifying three realms.

“I have thus taught you nirvāṇa.
You are freed from the suffering of saṃsāra,
But you have still not attained nirvāṇa.
You need to seek the yāna of buddhahood.

Here, the Buddha is addressing an arhat, telling him he must seek out the bodhisattva path. Why? Because śrāvakas typically believe there can only be one buddha at a time.

When examined, who is being critiqued in the Lotus? Adherents of the Śrāvaka schools who assert that the desire to become a arhat, a pratyekabuddha, or a buddha are mutually exclusive. Indeed,  Śrāvaka schools normatively teach that if one decides to take the bodhisattva path, one can no longer become a stream entrant, and that one is delaying one's realization of the path of seeing until one's final lifetime as a bodhisattva. Mahāyāna texts from the PP Sūtras onward understand and extol the ekayāna teachings. Thus, it is very clear that the Lotus is supporting the idea that there is only one actual path, the path to buddhahood, and that path is the bodhisattva path, and whether aware of it or not, everyone is on this path.

To sum up, I see no evidence to support your contention that the bodhisattva path mentioned is the Lotus is different from the buddhayāna, with one qualification. The Lotus can certainly be understood to be critiquing the śrāvaka notion that the three paths—srāvaka arhat, pratyekabuddha, and buddha—are mutually exclusive, and that choosing one is eschewing the other two. This is evident from a couple of facts: one, in the Lotus the Buddha predicts all sentient beings for full buddhahood; the srāvaka notion of an bodhisattva is that one must have been given a prediction during the lifetime of the Buddha to full buddhahood and that therefore, Mahāyānists who aspired for full buddhahood without said prediction were fools. Second, the Buddha, while not repudiating different inclinations for different results, repudiates that there are actually three seperate paths with three separate results, and further points out that the result sought by srāvakas—regardless of their inclination to realize the result of a srāvaka arhat, pratyekabuddha, or a buddha—is not merely the cessation from suffering. The Buddha in this text clarifies that nirvana is not merely the cessation of suffering:

3.142: Why do I say that this is not liberation?
Because this supreme, highest enlightenment is not attained.
I was born in this world in order to bring happiness.
That is the wish that I, the King of Dharma, have.

Anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi is attended by knowledge of all paths of liberation, among other things, which is I why I pointed out to you earlier that the PP Sūtras include the notion of omniscience about all paths of liberation, comparing and contrasting the inferior omniscience of srāvaka arhat and pratyekabuddha with the superior omniscience of bodhisattva mahāsattvas and ultimately, buddhahood.

The third criteria that Hinayāna insists for a prediction to buddhahood and hence the ability to enter the bodhisattva path is that one must be male, and this is where the Nāga princess' story is relevant.

I could go on, but you should get my drift. The bodhisattva yāna you think the Lotus is criticizing is not the Mahāyāna bodhisattva path, it is the bodhisattva path as it is taught in Hinayāna sūtras, Abhidharma, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 14th, 2021 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


yagmort said:
so it looks like in Chetsün Nyingtig they don't proceed to the dzogchen proper right after ngöndro.
am i getting something incorrectly here?

Malcolm wrote:
Having completed the ngondro, one continues with rushen, trekcho, and thogal


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 14th, 2021 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Queequeg said:
Again, if your point is just to say that the Lotus is not special, take it. That's not what I'm really talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
The Lotus Sutra is a remarkable text based on its literary merits, for example, the parable of the prodigal son, etc., and all Mahayana traditions acknowledge this. But it’s not that special when considered from the point of view of the specifics of what we have come to understand as core Mahayana doctrine.

The teleology and hermeneutics around it developed by Zhi Yi and his school is unique to the Sinosphere, but the emphasis on that obscures the sutra itself, in my opinion.

We have access to sutras and shastras in a way that is unpraralleled before in any generation. We can quickly and easily search texts in Sanskrit, Chinese, and Tibetan, and compare different translations into different languages and the phases of development of Buddhist thought around these texts. Because of this, everything in Buddhist thought and history is undergoing a thorough recontextualization.

This should be embraced, not resisted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 14th, 2021 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
QQ:

The usual meaning of Mahayana is the vehicle practiced by bodhisattvas – ie. the six paramitas and three eons of practice. It does not usually include the claim that the Sravakayana and Pratyekabuddhayana are actually the Mahayana.
If you only read one sutra, you are unlikely to encounter the large number of passages in many Mahayana sutras which which actually state that arhats and pratyekabuddhas are in fact on the Mahayana path, whether they know it or not. It is normative Mahayana to claim this, it’s not an exceptional claim at all.

All one needs to do is look t the distribution of the term “one vehicle” in the many Mahayana sutras which treat this term to see that this so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 14th, 2021 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I’m curious, why are they referred to as cycles of teachings?

Malcolm wrote:
Cycle is a translation of skor, which means cycle and section.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 13th, 2021 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:
lucidaromulus said:
is this a mahayoga or atiyoga empowerment?
also is this a rigpa tsal wang?

Malcolm wrote:
It is anuyoga, and can include the rig pa rtsal wang, at the lama’s discretion.

Passing By said:
That's the 4th one after the Mind empowerment right? Until now I still don't know if there's a formal "official" format a rig pai tsal wang should look like or does literally any pointing out count as one

Malcolm wrote:
Not in this particular empowerment, in this one it’s the fifth empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 13th, 2021 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:
lucidaromulus said:
is this a mahayoga or atiyoga empowerment?
also is this a rigpa tsal wang?

Malcolm wrote:
It is anuyoga, and can include the rig pa rtsal wang, at the lama’s discretion.

The main sadhana itself can be practiced as either a mahayoga or an anuyoga practice, and the root text contains instructions for maha, anu, and ati yoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 5:45 PM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition
Content:
PeterC said:
. Buddhists are atheists too.

Malcolm wrote:
Bravo.


Sādhaka said:
Yea well it’s kind of one of those apples & oranges type of things.

I think it would be better to say that Buddhists are “non-theists”, to separate ourselves from the “atheist” label of those who often have swung towards militant-atheism as an knee-jerk reaction to having been traumatized by growing up in roman catholicism or some other type of exoteric churchianity.

I mean their frustration is understandable, having gotten raised in exoteric christianity and likely not having been informed that there is a rich philosophical culture to be found within the Coptic & Eastern Orthodox teachings, The Desert Fathers, Nestorianism, Neoplatonism, Gnostic Christianity, etc.

Also, most people who label themselves as atheist, would have a hard time entertaining the idea that all universes are included within the Body of Mahavairocana (I mean that I believe that this is something that we consider from Lower/Outer Tantra on up....)

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, you go be a niontheist. I’ll remain an atheist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 5:43 PM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition
Content:


Sādhaka said:
And as many things as Blavatsky may have been mistaken on, she did seem sincere, and not smug like the likes of Dawkins, Hitchens, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, sure, that’s why she was such an excellent con artist, running the short grift with seances and mediumship. But her long con was even better…she wrote books, inspired Crowley, and a whole generation of occult grifters.


Sādhaka said:
I’m not sure if and/or how long she may have been into mediumism; however she eventually denounced it, and likely even before she had written Isis Unveiled:


H.P. Blavatsky said:
https://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/path/v09n03p84_lodges-of-magic.htm

“Of course no one can say that one or all of the possible members of our friend A's ideal Cagliostrian lodge might not also be ready for Adeptship, but the chance is not good enough to speculate upon: Western civilization seems to develop fighters rather than philosophers, military butchers rather than Buddhas. The plan "A" proposes would be far more likely to end in mediumship than Adeptship. ”

Malcolm wrote:
Theosophy was a better grift.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 10:59 AM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition
Content:
PeterC said:
. Buddhists are atheists too.

Malcolm wrote:
Bravo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 9:06 AM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition
Content:


Sādhaka said:
And as many things as Blavatsky may have been mistaken on, she did seem sincere, and not smug like the likes of Dawkins, Hitchens, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, sure, that’s why she was such an excellent con artist, running the short grift with seances and mediumship. But her long con was even better…she wrote books, inspired Crowley, and a whole generation of occult grifters.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 8:57 AM
Title: Re: Am I practicing for real?
Content:
Schuberty said:
Is chanting mantra, practicing Shamatha and reading dharma books called a practice? Like i’m on the path?

Malcolm wrote:
Without a teacher to guide you? No, this not a path. This is a hobby.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
There is always.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a mistaken imputation of a self which is not real in any way at all. But the falsity of identity should be understood early on. When one achieves the first bodhisattva stage, one is free from the concepts of self and identity.

GrapeLover said:
Just curious, is this something that always persists between lives for a bodhisattva like for a śrāvaka stream entrant?

Malcolm wrote:
It does not persist for either. Stream entrants are free from false notions of self, as are first stage bodhisattvas. They both realize emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
There is always.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a mistaken imputation of a self which is not real in any way at all. But the falsity of identity should be understood early on. When one achieves the first bodhisattva stage, one is free from the concepts of self and identity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
We can’t carry a self into Buddha nature and come out still with self...there has to be a change this change reflects Bodhisattva training. Self manifests at all levels of perceptions even subtle states of mind. It’s already a big hindrance for before and after.

Malcolm wrote:
We don't have a self.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
We embody the mind of attachment.

Malcolm wrote:
All sutras indicate that sentient beings have attachment.

I don't understand how any of this is relevant to your initial question:

"What is your view regarding someone who fully realized Buddha nature or emptiness? How can you be sure that they no longer suffer?"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
Sorry if I speak in cryptic I don’t know the experience of Arhat. I can only speak in relevant to our mind situations as revealed in Lotus Sutra.

Malcolm wrote:
What mind situations?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
I am not...if self is still cherished as we all do in Saha world, it is the number one hindrance.

Malcolm wrote:
You asked whether or not someone who had fully realized emptiness (a buddha I assume) could suffer.

I asked what you meant by suffering. You also did not clarify which kind of awakened person you meant. Arhats, for example, are beyond creating new karma, but can still experience unripened karma from past lives.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
I don’t think it’s accident that 500 left the assembly.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, _5000_ bhikṣus departed. Nevertheless, you're being opaque.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
I don’t know.

Malcolm wrote:
Then I can't answer your question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
“These people – both those in the stage of learning, and those beyond the stage of learning – thought that being detached from self-centered views and from dualistic views of existence and nonexistence meant achieving nirvana. Now here, in the presence of the World Honored One, they have heard what they never heard before, and all of them have fallen into doubt and confusion.

Malcolm wrote:
This refers stream entrants, etc., up to arhats.

LastLegend said:
What is your view regarding someone who fully realized Buddha nature or emptiness? How can you be sure that they no longer suffer?

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by "suffer"?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition
Content:


TharpaChodron said:
I don’t disagree, mostly. I’m actually reading “Swerve” right now, its specifially about Lucretius’ poem and it’s influence on civilization, pretty interesting so far.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/dec/23/the-swerve-stephen-greenblatt-review

Malcolm wrote:
You ought to read "Nature's God: The Heretical Origins of the American Republic."

It's really good.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition
Content:
Shotenzenjin said:
It's not like atheists ever had dictators or killed millions of people or anything'.
Oh wait a minute ....   ..

Malcolm wrote:
Easily explained by the fact that they inherited a Christian eschatology and culture, that served as an underlying narrative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
“These people – both those in the stage of learning, and those beyond the stage of learning – thought that being detached from self-centered views and from dualistic views of existence and nonexistence meant achieving nirvana. Now here, in the presence of the World Honored One, they have heard what they never heard before, and all of them have fallen into doubt and confusion.

Malcolm wrote:
This refers stream entrants, etc., up to arhats.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Queequeg said:
right. like I said, add the footnotes you need. I'll read what the text actually says.

Malcolm wrote:
The impasse is that you are not reading what the text actually says. You are reading into the text what you want it to say. You are the one disregarding its origin and content, not me.

Queequeg said:
LOL. OK.

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot understand a text by ignoring its original milieu. What you are engaged in is special pleading 1) by deliberately down playing the Indian context of this text and 2) elevating its Chinese reception in one specific school.

These texts were, in their stages of development, perfectly intelligible to Indian Buddhists who listened to and promulgated them. They needed no guidance in understanding the narratives they were presenting.

The reason we do not find extensive presentations of the content of the Lotus in the synthetic commentaries such as those I have mentioned is that these commentaries are not going to focus on narratives, but rather on the key points related to the path.

We know the Lotus was important to Indian Mahāyāna Buddhists, from its time of composition onward, because they cite it over and over again when discussing the principle of of ekayāna, irrespective of their orientation towards Madhyamaka or Yogacāra.

We do not have many full fledged commentaries on Mahāyāna sūtras outside of the sūtras considered key to Madhyamaka or Yogacāra doctrines, like the PP Sūtras, the Lanka, the Saṃdhinirmocana, etc. The universal Indian Mahāyāna view concerning the ekayāna presented in the Lotus is that it, like other Mahāyāna sutras which bring up the issue, include all vehicles into one vehicle. That vehicle is the vehicle of buddhahood. The path that vehicle presents is the bodhisattva path. Otherwise, one cannot find in any sūtra, or tantra for that matter, the notion of a "fourth" vehicle, or the idea that there is a separate "buddha path" which is distinct from Mahāyāna. One does find this equation: ekayāna = mahāyāna = buddhayāna. One also finds the idea, in both sūtras and Indian treatises that cite them, that the śrāvakayāna and pratyekabuddhayāna are included in Mahāyāna, making one vehicle.

The bodhisattvas welling up from the ground is a distraction. As a narrative it serves no purpose in the discussion of ekayāna. It is related to another issue, "When did the Buddha attain buddhahood? And the answer to that question, everyone in Mahāyāna agrees, is gazillions of eons ago. Whether Maitreya was truly astonished, or merely expressing astonishment as a show, is irrelevant. The point of the story is why the Buddha was able to teach so many bodhisattvas, setting the stage for his grand reveal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 12th, 2021 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
LastLegend said:
It’s possible that there is a straight jump to a complete Buddha. Chan texts sometimes say that, but I personally don’t think so.

Malcolm wrote:
Possible, but not probable. But that is not what buddhayāna means.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition
Content:



PeterC said:
We think those people “suffer from wrong view”, are “ignorant”, have “obscurations” - is our view of them that different?

Johnny Dangerous said:
Yes, there is a big difference between believing someone is wrong and believing that they are biologically deficient -especially- when someone’s philosophy essentializes the importance of biology - as his does.

TharpaChodron said:
Buddhists say an eternalist view albeit wrong is superior to nihilist because at least it is positive and leads to a spiritual outlook. So, our view is quite different. Real wrong view to a Buddhist would be Atheism/Nihilism. I’m referencing Thinley Dorbu Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
Candrakīrti states that the principle difference between materialists and Buddhists is that we accept karma and rebirth. Other than that, there isn't much difference.

The person who wrote the establishment clause in the first amendment, James Madison, was an atheist (politely termed "deist" in those days, meaning someone who followed Lucretius's De rerum natura, a summary of Epicurus's materialist philosophy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_rerum_natura ).

I would trust atheists over theists any day of the week.

NIhilism is that silly philosophy adhered to by teenagers, burgeoning fascists, and groovy french intellectuals who read too much Nietzsche.

Why would I would trust atheists over theists any day of the week? Because they basically don't give a shit about what I believe. They are more focused on theists, whose beliefs are demonstrably toxic and dangerous to all life on the planet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Queequeg said:
right. like I said, add the footnotes you need. I'll read what the text actually says.

Malcolm wrote:
The impasse is that you are not reading what the text actually says. You are reading into the text what you want it to say. You are the one disregarding its origin and content, not me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Queequeg said:
Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:52 pm
Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:46 pm
Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:30 pm
What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.
You might want to read that parable again.

The three vehicles are the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. This is distinguished from the Buddhayana that is actually given.
Bodhisattvayāna and buddhayāna are synonyms. The intent is to show that there is only one yāna, the path of the bodhisattva. That is made clear by the countless references to the practice of bodhisattvas in the Lotus Sūtra.
So you say. Others say otherwise.

Bristollad said:
Which others say that there are four vehicles?  The goal of the śrāvakas and the solitary realisers is Arhatship, the goal of the bodhisattvas is full awakening in order to help all sentient beings.  What is this fourth vehicle?  Who is it for and what is it’s fruit?

Queequeg said:
So, this is an East Asian debate.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is now a global debate.


Queequeg said:
Preliminary comment - As I responded to Malcolm, holding out the Indian commentaries as an authoritative view isn't particularly helpful. The transmission of Buddhism to China took place at an earlier period than Tibet, so in a sense, we have a snapshot of an earlier form of Buddhism, before the composition of a lot of these commentaries. It also came in through the Silk Road, so passed through that area and presumably was shaped by it.

Malcolm wrote:
I am referring to Indian commentaries that are prior to Zhiyi (538–597 CE).

You seem to have this notion, shared by many people who follow EA Buddhist, that Tibetan Buddhism is based on the post Gupta tradition. While this is certainly true when it comes to Vajrayāna, it is completely false when it comes to sūtra exegesis.

The main lines of Indian scholarly analysis of sutras took place prior to the collapse of Gupta Dynasty with the invasion of the Hephthalites and the death of Buddhagupta in 495 CE. There was a notable hiatus of scholarly production during this period, while Indian Buddhism was recovering from the invasion. Zhiyi lived during this period. The revival of Indian Buddhism was witnessed by Xuanzang (602 – 664), who imported the mature Yogacāra school of Dharmapāla to China. Nāgārjuna and Āryadeva, and Maitreya, Asanga, and Vasubandhu, whose work set out the mainlines of Tibetan Buddhist scholasticism, all lived prior to this period. The main persons who articulate what Tibetans understand from the broad range of Mahāyāna doctrine are Maitreya and Asanga. The main text Tibetans have used as a manual to understand Mahāyāna practice is the Mahāyāna Sūtrālaṃkāra of Maitreya. So, it is erroneous to claim that the Tibetan Buddhist view of sūtra derives from a post-Gupta milieu, as you have here claimed.

The Dharmapāla Yogacara school never made it to Tibet, since it's popularity had declined by the middle of the 8th century, when the Tibetans were importing standard Indian Mahāyāna Buddhism wholesale from Nalanda trained panditas.


Queequeg said:
If you take a fresh look at the Lotus, you can see an impression of the people who composed the text. Their practice probably focused on stupa veneration.

Malcolm wrote:
One, stupas are called Caityas for a reason: all Buddhists venerate stupas. This is not some unique Mahāyāna idea. The notion that Mahāyāna arose of lay stupa veneration societies has been discredited.

Queequeg said:
They probably lived in the same spaces with Elders (Tripitaka Buddhists, ie. Sravakas) and other Mahayanists, but it doesn't seem like they fully agreed with all.

Malcolm wrote:
You would only derive this opinion of you have not examined the full range of references to ekayāna, buddhayāna, and Mahāyāna in the sūtras themselves, passage by passage, as I have done.

Queequeg said:
There is a persecution complex evident, so they were likely a minority on the edge.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the case for all Mahāyānīs in India.

Queequeg said:
In transmitting the Sutra, they are urged to secrecy.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the case for all Mahāyāna sūtras, from the PP onward.

Queequeg said:
At the same time, they take a very expansive and embracing view of what it means to be Buddhist.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the case for most Mahāyāna sūtras, but not all.

Queequeg said:
The idea of upaya presented in the text is more radical than I've encountered in other sutras, to the point of calling the whole of Buddhist teachings just stories aimed at getting beings to progress on the path, even as these beings actually have no idea where they're going.

Malcolm wrote:
How many sutras have you actually read? Why are you making claims for texts you have not examined? Very little has been translated into English. Are you referring to sūtras you have read in Classical Chinese?

Queequeg said:
In a word, it presents the Buddha as an extremely paternalistic character who often doesn't let on about what he is really doing, even to the point of not being completely forthright with all of the bodhisattvas. I get Malcolm's argument that Maitreya et al. are supposed to have knowledge approaching a Buddha, but the way the story is told suggests otherwise. They're not playing along with some didactic dialogue, Maitreya and company are confronted with innumerable hosts of bodhisattvas of stature and development beyond anything they can grasp.

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of device is common in Indian sūtras and tantras. It is not some unique feature of the Lotus.

Queequeg said:
but, they argue, not all brought together in one narrative.

Malcolm wrote:
False.

Queequeg said:
If you go through the Buddhist corpus, you will find most of these ideas here and there. I can't believe I'm making some earth shattering statement that when you weave elements together in a certain way, the overall picture that emerges can be very different. I think the composers of the Lotus were fluent in the language of Buddhism and wove this story to make a unique point.

Malcolm wrote:
If you think the unique point is that there is fourth vehicle called buddhayāna, which is not the Mahāyāna, then you are deeply mistaken.

Queequeg said:
Supposing the Lotus is unique is inconvenient for people who later want to weave together a cohesive Mahayana. I'd argue, the later Indians didn't go into this text because they had other ideas and had no idea how to integrate the message that comes out of it.

Malcolm wrote:
One, your claim is demonstrably false.

Queequeg said:
The Lotus, for me, gives the permission to wake up out of the myths and look for the enduring meaning.

Malcolm wrote:
It is one think to look to this or that text for inspiration. It is quite another to make claims for a text that one makes no serious effort to support.

For example, the Brahma-viśeṣacinti-paripṛcchā states:
This vehicle of the Mahāyāna
is the inconceivable buddha vehicle.
In making room for sentient beings
the Mahāyāna is unsurpassed.

However many vehicles there maybe,
this is thought to be the best of them.
Therefore, all other vehicles
are classified out of the Mahāyāna.

The other vehicles are too small,
and do not have room for all.
But this Mahāyāna
has room for everybody.


Can you seriously claim that this does not have the same meaning as the Lotus?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Queequeg said:
The text is ambiguous at best.

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all:

saddharmapuṇḍarīka-nāma- mahāyāna -sūtra

Do you think the Mahāyāna is something other than the bodhisattva path? This is the path being described as the ekayāna.

Other than the Lotus, the ekayāna is mentioned in:

The PP in 18 Thousand lines
PP in 8 Thousand lines
The Lankavatāra  (one of the more extensive presentations aside from the lotus)
Shrimāladevi Sūtra  (one of the more extensive presentations aside from the lotus)
The Great Drum Sūtra
The AngulimālaSūtra
The Nirvana Sūtra (one of the more extensive presentations aside from the lotus)
The Samdhinirmocana Sūtra.
The Dharani that Removes obscurations
The Great Liberation Sūtra (one of the more extensive presentations aside from the lotus)
The Ten Wheels of Kṣitigarbha Sūtra
The King of The Sublime Dharma Sūtra
Cloud of Jewels Sūtra
Differentiation of Phenomena and Meaning Sūtra
The Skill in Means Sūtra (one of the more extensive presentations aside from the lotus)
The Vajrasamadhi Sūtra (apocryphal, but important).
Tathāgatagarbha Sūtra
The Request of Akṣayamati Sūtra
Sūtra that Shows Donning the Armor
The Method that is the Domain of Bodhisattvas Sūtra (one of the more extensive presentations aside from the lotus)
The Intimate Instruction of Mahāyāna Sutra.

Here, in all these sūtras, we see that the concept of the ekayāna is very consistent applied and is completely synonymous with Mahāyāna and the path of the bodhisattva.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: Astrology and Buddhism
Content:
Viach said:
Please provide quotes from the sutras and tantras in which the Buddha would mention astrology in a positive way.

Malcolm wrote:
Kalacakra has an entire section on astrology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: nyingma lineages/cycles structures of practice.
Content:


yagmort said:
some cycles are very short/condensed, like Künzang Thugtig, which only has ngöndro, zhitro as generation stage and dzogchen as completion stage.
i was also told that Chetsün Nyingtig is a very condensed cycle as well, but i don't know what they do after ngöndro?

Malcolm wrote:
Rushen, trekcho, thogal

yagmort said:
so one more question i would also like to clarify - is dzogchen section stays the same for all lineages with khorde rushen/semdzin/tregcho/tögel?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, pretty much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 7:40 PM
Title: Re: Dharmakaya Body View
Content:
Taikor.Taikun said:
In Vajrayana, there’s a view of a 4th body, Svabhavikakaya, the Essence Body that is the unity or non-separateness of the 3 kayas

Malcolm wrote:
This is a sutra yana idea, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 10:22 AM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition
Content:
reiun said:
Most rank-and-file theists are born into it, unlike most of us who, I believe, have chosen Buddhism on our own. They do not exhibit clinical cognitive deficits. Family upbringing, catechism, Sunday school, prayer, etc., reinforce their faith, or not. In comparison, some theists might or could regard those who seek release from Samsara (Parinirvana) as  death cultists.

Malcolm wrote:
There are many people with cognitive disorders who are not necessarily suffering from cognitive deficits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 6:50 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:



Queequeg said:
You might want to read that parable again.

The three vehicles are the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. This is distinguished from the Buddhayana that is actually given.

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhisattvayāna and buddhayāna are synonyms. The intent is to show that there is only one yāna, the path of the bodhisattva. That is made clear by the countless references to the practice of bodhisattvas in the Lotus Sūtra.

Queequeg said:
So you say. Others say otherwise.

The problem with you is that you allow only your interpretation when that's actually not the case.

As long as you can move the goal posts wherever you feel appropriate, there is no point.

We've reached an impasse.

Malcolm wrote:
I’m basing my understanding on the text and how it’s understood in the Indian tradition, in so far as that understanding is accessible through Indian references to text itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The relative truth is an error. It is false perception.

Queequeg said:
That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is that they can be upaya. Kind of the way the Lotus presents upaya. "He aint lyin!"

Malcolm wrote:
Relative truth is a false perception. It is because beings have false perceptions that buddhas use skillful means. If beings did not have false perceptions, skillful means would be of no use.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.

Queequeg said:
You might want to read that parable again.

The three vehicles are the Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana, and Bodhisattvayana. This is distinguished from the Buddhayana that is actually given.

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhisattvayāna and buddhayāna are synonyms. The intent is to show that there is only one yāna, the path of the bodhisattva. That is made clear by the countless references to the practice of bodhisattvas in the Lotus Sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: Original enlightenment , Honbutsu, Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
sigh




and that's why it is in a category in and of itself in the sutra and in what john wrote..

but you don't get sick unless it is your karma to do so..

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha disagrees:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=585383#p585383

illarraza said:
I might add Malcolm, by Nichiren, the Eternal Buddha's foremost disciple and one of the most studied teachers in the history of Buddhism. Have you seen the footnotes in his writings? Many of these citations were from memory!

Malcolm wrote:
It is certain that Nichiren was a well-trained scholar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:



illarraza said:
You made it a "competiiton" (debate) through your damning faint praise which the Lotus Sutra teaches is another type of slander of its votaries.

Malcolm wrote:
You know what they say, "heaven for the climate, hell for the company."

illarraza said:
If we are to believe Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra, even though you proffer such truths as, "I am sure it has positive effect in their life", slandering a votary of the Lotus Sutra, even merely exposing his or her faults, is a grave offense that unless met with sincere repentence, will lead to Hell for the company.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I understand that is what you believe. It's interesting how glib you are in condemning people to hell and how much you relish the rolling of heads. A veritable Buddhist Torquemada.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Queequeg said:
But similarly, take away sentient beings, and what is Buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
Unnecessary.

Queequeg said:
In the view I've been taught, neither of these is a superior view, and rather they are coextensive, just as emptiness is coextensive with dharmas.

Malcolm wrote:
The relative truth is an error. It is false perception.


Queequeg said:
So, tell us about your Lotus Sutra.

Malcolm wrote:
Chapter 5 states it well:

“ ‘The one who knows that phenomena
Have the nature of dreams and illusions,
Are without an essence like a plantain tree
And are the same as echoes, {79}

“ ‘That one knows the nature
Of the entire three realms,
Has no bondage, is liberated,
And knows nirvāṇa. {80}

“ ‘All phenomena are empty and equal,
And their nature is without diversity or differentiation.
If that is not perceived,
There is no insight into any phenomenon. {81}

“ ‘The one with great wisdom sees
The entire dharmakāya.
There are no three yānas at all;
There is only the single yāna. {82}

“ ‘All phenomena are the same;
All are the same, always the same.
Knowing that, one knows
Nirvāṇa, deathlessness, and peace.’ ”



Chapter 13 also has a pretty good summary:

“When the stable ones do not entertain the notion of ‘woman,’
And do not have the concept of ‘man,’
Then, because all phenomena are unborn,
Upon seeking them they do not see them. {17}

“This practice that I have described
Is completely that of the bodhisattvas.
Listen to the explanation
Of that which is their field of activity. {18}

“These phenomena are declared nonexistent;
They are all unproduced and unborn.
They remain empty and motionless at all times:
That is what is called the field of activity of the wise. {19}

“Being and not being, existing and not existing:
These are fabrications of erroneous conceptualization.
Unborn phenomena that are also unoriginated
Are misconstrued to be born and existing. {20}

“With a one-pointed mind, always in meditation,
As completely stable as Mount Sumeru,
Stable in this way, they should view
All these phenomena as being like space. {21}

“They are always the same as space, without an essence,
Motionless and devoid of illusory thoughts.
This is the way phenomena are throughout time.
This is what is called the field of activity of the wise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:



illarraza said:
Thanks for your damnation through faint praise. Though sometimes inarticulate, thanks to Nichiren's instructions in polemics, several dozens or more have come to chant Namu Myoho renge kyo.

Malcolm wrote:
If this were a competition, I'd say that you are pretty far behind in the game in terms of numbers. But it's not a competition.

illarraza said:
35,000.000 people chant Namu Myoho renge kyo

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure it has positive effect in their life.

illarraza said:
You made it a "competiiton" (debate) through your damning faint praise which the Lotus Sutra teaches is another type of slander of its votaries.

Malcolm wrote:
You know what they say, "heaven for the climate, hell for the company."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:
illarraza said:
Polemics is one aspect of teaching others to chant Namu myoho renge kyo.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, then I have to say that while you are exceptionally inept at polemics, you are a pretty good cheerleader.

illarraza said:
Thanks for your damnation through faint praise. Though sometimes inarticulate, thanks to Nichiren's instructions in polemics, several dozens or more have come to chant Namu Myoho renge kyo.

Malcolm wrote:
If this were a competition, I'd say that you are pretty far behind in the game in terms of numbers. But it's not a competition.

illarraza said:
35,000.000 people chant Namu Myoho renge kyo

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure it has positive effect in their life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: Richard Dawkins - The Enemies of Reason - Part 1: Slaves to Superstition
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Dawkins religion is just modernity and liberal democracy. In that sense he may be sort of ally.... but he also thinks people with religion might have a brain disease.  So, not that much of an ally.

Malcolm wrote:
Theists definitely suffer from a cognitive disorder.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
GrapeLover said:
I don't think this is how to read that passage. There is no possibility that Maitreya did not know the answer to the questions he posed. It is a literary device and nothing more, not to be taken literally.
Bit like how Vimalakirti dances circles around Manjushri and all the rest in the VS, everyone serves their turn acting amazed for the sake of the lesson, Ha Ha!

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty much. The Indian literary sensibility is interesting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 11th, 2021 at 1:30 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Queequeg said:
In one sense, the Lotus points out the Ekayana. But the Ekayana is not really all that different than the Mahayana. Its the Mahayana framed in a maximally expansive, embracing way. Later in the text, its Maitreya at the head of the bodhisattvas who is perplexed by the Buddha's statements and seeks clarification. The Buddha then expounds on his life span.

Malcolm wrote:
What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.

Of course, also the Lanka has the same critique.

The Abhisamayalaṃkāra distinguishes the these three on the basis of what kind of all-knowledge each of the three possesses, because they are different. The reason it does so is that on the path, the bodhisattva must possess and surpass the all-knowledge of śrāvaka arhats and pratyekabuddhas, which they do by the tenth bhumi.

Queequeg said:
I respectfully disagree.

In the parable of the burning house, the ox cart given to all of the children is much more extravagant than the one promised.

Malcolm wrote:
Three carts are promised, representing the three gotras. Only one cart is given, since there is only one gotra.

But when we discuss the real meaning here, the real meaning is clarified in the Lanka-- those in the samadhi of cessation are roused by the Buddha, and they are placed on the bodhisattva path to complete buddhahood.

Queequeg said:
Later, even Maitreya is stumped by the Buddha's declaration that the bodhisattvas who emerged from the Earth were his disciples. Maitreya, and the rest of the bodhisattvas, perhaps with the exception of Manjusri, cannot understand how Shakyamuni could have taught all of these bodhisattvas in the 40 years since he awoke at Gaya.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think this is how to read that passage. There is no possibility that Maitreya did not know the answer to the questions he posed. It is a literary device and nothing more, not to be taken literally.

Queequeg said:
The Buddha then explains he awoke in the remote past.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is a claim also made in the Avatamska Sūtra.

Queequeg said:
The point I take is that even the bodhisattva path the bodhisattvas thought they were on was incomplete.

Malcolm wrote:
Not possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Minobu said:
So like i finally actually know now that we do indeed have the Tathagatagarbha ..it's part of being sentient...
so like just like i cut myself and these weird blood clots are produced and run to that area...or like i get some viral infection and my body produces antibodies and i survive and there is this memory in the bone marrow for the next time...

This Tathagatagarbha produces all these different teaches ...some of them go whooshing over your head...others make you recoil...but they both are coming from the same source...

it'sa beautiful...mia amore !

i'm freaking high on this stuff...

Malcolm wrote:
Tathāgatagarbha is luminosity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Queequeg said:
In one sense, the Lotus points out the Ekayana. But the Ekayana is not really all that different than the Mahayana. Its the Mahayana framed in a maximally expansive, embracing way. Later in the text, its Maitreya at the head of the bodhisattvas who is perplexed by the Buddha's statements and seeks clarification. The Buddha then expounds on his life span.

Malcolm wrote:
What the Lotus is critiquing is the notion of three gotras: śrāvaka arhats; pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas.

Of course, also the Lanka has the same critique.

The Abhisamayalaṃkāra distinguishes the these three on the basis of what kind of all-knowledge each of the three possesses, because they are different. The reason it does so is that on the path, the bodhisattva must possess and surpass the all-knowledge of śrāvaka arhats and pratyekabuddhas, which they do by the tenth bhumi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:



Queequeg said:
We follow these instruction manuals because someone we attribute authority to say they work. Of course the ultimate test is whether there is actual proof in one's own experience. Saying Buddhism is exclusively this (awakening) or that (testimony), or depends on the primacy of this (Buddha) or that (Dharma), is a dead end sooner or later.

Malcolm wrote:
As you know, I draw a sharp distinction between Buddhism (concepts) and Buddhadharma (realization through personal experience). But in any case, the Uttaratantra is pretty clear on this point. The Buddha is the ultimate refuge because the Buddha possesses the dharmakāya; and in that same text the dharmakāya is defined as the realization of the dharmadhātu, further defined as the clear light or luminous nature of the mind, the realization that is the basis upon which the Buddha then teaches the dharma.

Queequeg said:
Because other than awakening itself, its all conceptual, but without the concepts framing awakening, there's no awakening. Strange how that is. Its like the impossibility of escaping the fact that a triangle has three sides and three corners.

Malcolm wrote:
Awakening is beyond thought and concepts. It can't truly be framed in concepts. Trying to frame awakening in concepts is like trying frame the taste of sugar in concepts to someone who has never tasted anything sweet. But if you have some sugar, you can easily say "Come and see what it tastes like yourself."

Queequeg said:
Bringing this back to the Lotus - one of the failures the text implicitly points out is when some teaching is followed to the exclusion of all else, saying, "This is True, everything else is false."

Malcolm wrote:
That is referring to polemical assertions; not the experience of awakening itself.

As for the Lotus itself, of course the Lotus presents the proper and correct explanation of the reality that is to be realized. But it is a very short passage in the text, and I never see it quoted in these discussions at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 7:47 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


tkp67 said:
When the LS says all Buddha achieve Buddhahood through it this could mean from the perspective of Shakyamuni's enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
The text does not say this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 9:40 AM
Title: Re: Dharmakaya Body View
Content:
Minobu said:
actually there are people here who i know would think me a heretic.

Malcolm wrote:
All sentient beings are heretics until they are buddhas. Buddhas engage in heresy to guide sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: Tight pressure in head
Content:
Schuberty said:
Thank you. I suspect i may be straining my eyes too hard.
Is open awareness meditation Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Definitely not, nor is so-called "awareness of awareness."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:


Minobu said:
i don't see how the common cold arises from ignorance..but lets say for argument's sake it does...

what is the cause of this ignorance in the sentient to bring about the affliction which causes suffering...

Malcolm wrote:
Suffering conditions affliction, which causes karma, which causes more suffering, which conditions more affliction, etc. There is no beginning in other words.

Aemilius said:
You can put these three, or one or two of them, in the beginning of the twelve Nidanas

Malcolm wrote:
But here the point is to explain the etiology of illness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Dharmakaya Body View
Content:


Minobu said:
I chant and meditate daily...today the words of Nichiren when describing the original nature as something that produces both enlightenment and defilement but it is neither...i wondered if this is the luminosity and if Japanese Buddhism of His time understood this teaching...

Malcolm wrote:
This is what in Dzogchen teachings would be termed "the original basis." If you recognize, it; nirvana; if you don't, samsara.

It is the recognition and integration into luminosity the yields all qualities of buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Queequeg said:
Buddha or Dharma?

Malcolm wrote:
Awakening.

Queequeg said:
Yes - that thing the Buddha testified to.

Shall we go on like this?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, he testified, but no one actually heard him at the time. Even so, no one ought to just take the Buddha's word for it. This is why personal testimonial is not convincing. Seeing for oneself however, is certainty. The old goldsmith test, you gotta bite down on the coin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Queequeg said:
Buddha or Dharma?

Malcolm wrote:
Awakening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Dharmakaya Body View
Content:




Malcolm wrote:
If you are able to recognize the luminous nature of the mind, while resting in it, there is no karma.


Minobu said:
So like is this some kind of short cut or trick to being able to live without all this karma cropping up...

Malcolm wrote:
And even when it does. What one is not doing, while resting in the nature of the mind is creating more karma, and also afflictions are burned up.

Minobu said:
obviously yes if one is able to live in that state through out the day.  yes / no ???

Like a Buddha...

Malcolm wrote:
The only difference between buddhas and us is whether we can stay in this state 24/7/365 or not. Sounds easy, but not so easy.

If you can use NMRK to discover this state, then great. If you need to use some other method, also great. All dharma teachings meet at this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 10th, 2021 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Dharmakaya Body View
Content:
Minobu said:
Luminosity is a metaphor for purity. Its also a metaphor for emptiness. Whatever is empty is luminous, and that is not only minds. Also all phenomena are luminous or pure.
this is interfering with my concept of emptiness..

i don't know how to ask you how it is...to me emptiness is just a view to show you that all things are codependent , co arising , something that is a view that it isn't really real hence existence and something that isn't really not real hence non existence...so because of all these factors no one thing is inherent...it cannot be for all is also change..if it was inherent to Samsara it would be permanent...one would not be able to make but one sound for if it was inherent thats where it stops, you don't get to finish the word let alone the sentence......ok   gone overboard here...


but you are talking about...?????

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness means that all considerations of existence and nonexistence are futile. It is true that whatever is dependently originated is empty, but that is because whatever is dependently originated is free from the four extremes of existence, nonexistence, and so on.




Minobu said:
if i was able to fully be , or sit in perfect meditation with this Luminosity...i suspect no karma could affect me anymore for i have over ridden it all...i've gone not beyound karma ...but in a manner of speaking gone before karma and affliction...i realize thats linear thinking but it's like the best  i can describe what i awoke to this morning in bed thinking about...

Malcolm wrote:
If you are able to recognize the luminous nature of the mind, while resting in it, there is no karma.


Minobu said:
also i sort of see now where affliction is the actual cause to karma...the affliction is different that is being pointed to...... is different than lets say a Covid virus...or a cancer...????

Malcolm wrote:
The principle here is that one has three humors in the body. These three humors ultimately come from ignorance of reality; but more proximately, come from the afflictions desire, hatred, and ignorance. For example, a person who has excess bile is angry all the time; that anger increases bile, and bile increases anger.

Some cancers are humoral, some cancers are karmic. Epidemics like covid are generally considered to be the result of pissing off nonhuman beings, who punish people for disturbing the environment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Queequeg said:
The Lotus is honest without violating the dictum that the Buddha is infallible. It dispenses with the motivation of commentaries that seek to make order.

Malcolm wrote:
But it doesn't really. Why do we know this? Because in India the Lotus is cited principally to reinforce the notion of the one vehicle.


Queequeg said:
The Lotus in several places confronts this problem head on, concluding, even though it is all but admitted that the Buddha tells stories that on their face are not factually true, he is not actually lying, the Lotus insists, because he's telling people what they need to hear to save them.

Malcolm wrote:
There are a number of sutras that employ this strategy, not merely the Lotus Sūtra.

Queequeg said:
Clearly, the authors of that text were aiming to address this problem which was probably a source of deep controversy at the time it was composed. And how did they do that? By going whole hog into fiction, as if to turn their argument into performance art, describing an impossible assembly on Grdhakuta, and an even more impossible transformation of the Earth with flying stupa of massive proportions and an eruption of bodhisattvas of greater appearance than any theretofore known, as if to emphasize how ridiculous a story it is but in the pious language of sutras, all to point out: They're all artful stories.



Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and they have their audience, but these sūtras, like the Lotus, the Skillful Means Sūtra, the Secret of the Tathāgatas, and so on do not present coherent, systematic, usable path. Even the Perfection of Wisdom Sūtras do not present an explicitly usable path. The Maitreyan corpus, for example, synthesizes all the Mahāyāna sūtras into a usable path in the Sūtralaṃkara. The progress of the bodhisattva path is specifically charted in the Abhisamayālaṃkāra, which presents the concealed meaning of the PP Sūtras with both Madhyamakas and Yogacārins agreeing that this text was the bees knees in explaining the both the progress of buddhahood and the omniscience of buddhahood, even though they disagreed on specific points of interpretation.


Queequeg said:
The least convincing criteria for a practice is personal testimonials.
Oh?

"My deliverance is unshakeable; this is my last birth; now there is no renewal of being."

The foundation of all Buddhism is a personal testimonial.


Malcolm wrote:
That may be the foundation of Buddhism, but the foundation of Buddhadharma is the realizing the truth that produces that exclamation. I prefer to focus on the latter rather than former.

A more convincing statement is Ehipaśyika, that is, "Come and see for yourself."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Dharmakaya Body View
Content:


Minobu said:
Yo Malcolm...
I'm having a bit of problem with something..

i've read this a gazillion times...and thanks for sharing..

first up am i to assume this is like BASIC to Dzogchen...?

Malcolm wrote:
This is not Dzogchen, it is sūtra, but yes, it is also basic to Dzogchen teachings, when explained intellectually.


Minobu said:
i get we have to use words and we use " luminosity" to describe the original element ... element?
is that correct...?

is mind something that resembles luminosity...or is it pure luminosity...?

Malcolm wrote:
Luminosity is a metaphor for purity. Its also a metaphor for emptiness. Whatever is empty is luminous, and that is not only minds. Also all phenomena are luminous or pure.

Minobu said:
is this saying that in the case of afflictions when we say "  it is seen that afflictions are natureless" that in this case we are being shown that the   afflictions being explained are not subject to sunyata..like there is no co arising in these  afflictions no  co dependence ..they do not have the nature of existence and non existence....but what is perceived in Samsara after  this is cause to see it all as sunyata...

Malcolm wrote:
When we say afflictions are natureless, we are saying they are not inherent to the mind.

Minobu said:
it's like it is separate from what appears in samsara and actually the  afflictions  that are being discussed here are the cause for samsara and everything there in is subject to sunyata...The luminosity is pure...the  afflictions poison it...????

Malcolm wrote:
Afflictions are just temporary clouds in the sky of the mind, that temporarily seem to stain its purity, but in reality, they cannot affect the mind at all, if we recognize them for what they are.

Minobu said:
so  is it also safe to say that afflictions are what cloud the mind there by we are ignorant of the nature of the luminosity ?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Or, some people want a manual, not a bunch of edifying stories.

Queequeg said:
They're all stories. And nothing wrong with that. That's all we have. I love stories. I love many stories religiously and even put some into practice.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with sutras in general is that they are not systematic. Abhidharma and tenet system are intended to put into a useable order the raw material of sutras, and this is true of the whole tradition of writing commentaries on sutras and tantras in all Mahayana countries.

Nevertheless, some sutras are more systematic then others.

Further, the whole attempt to define sutras by periods of the Buddha’s life, whether three turnings or five periods, are faulty criteria for evaluating the relative merits of this or that sutra, and mainly serve scholastic objectives.

The least convincing criteria for a practice is personal testimonials.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Queequeg said:
The Lotus is a key log. Perhaps not the key log.

I find it compelling. It declares that everything the Buddha teaches is upaya. Everything. Including the story of the Buddha's life. Including stories about other buddhas and bodhisattvas and beings in far off lands. It is the ultimate cure against religious attachment professed in the language of religious attachment. Something that ought to be approached with religious awe that will free you of religious imprisonment. Its the Wizard of Oz's confession. "You, Cowardly Lion, have Buddhanature, too! Always have! Buddhanature is connate since time without beginning! But you are demoralized and can't accept this, so I tell you stories and contrive circumstances to save you from your misguided activities and to build up your confidence. Now that you are built up and strong through your dedicated Dharma practice, it is time to tell you the truth about how wonderful you are, as you are. You will be a buddha!"

Svaha! Its the joyful good news! That's all. And if someone doesn't get that, they don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere. So says the Buddha in the Lotus teaching. Let it be. Either on the bus or not. That's all.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it’s an enjoyable read, and has much literary merit. It’s just not that philosophically compelling.

Queequeg said:
Some people like complicated.

Malcolm wrote:
Or, some people want a manual, not a bunch of edifying stories.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Queequeg said:
The Lotus is a key log. Perhaps not the key log.

I find it compelling. It declares that everything the Buddha teaches is upaya. Everything. Including the story of the Buddha's life. Including stories about other buddhas and bodhisattvas and beings in far off lands. It is the ultimate cure against religious attachment professed in the language of religious attachment. Something that ought to be approached with religious awe that will free you of religious imprisonment. Its the Wizard of Oz's confession. "You, Cowardly Lion, have Buddhanature, too! Always have! Buddhanature is connate since time without beginning! But you are demoralized and can't accept this, so I tell you stories and contrive circumstances to save you from your misguided activities and to build up your confidence. Now that you are built up and strong through your dedicated Dharma practice, it is time to tell you the truth about how wonderful you are, as you are. You will be a buddha!"

Svaha! Its the joyful good news! That's all. And if someone doesn't get that, they don't appreciate how wonderful buddhanature is and they probably need to keep slogging on with their austerities on the cushion and elsewhere. So says the Buddha in the Lotus teaching. Let it be. Either on the bus or not. That's all.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it’s an enjoyable read, and has much literary merit. It’s just not that philosophically compelling.

As has been discussed, the Indians distilled the essence of the various important sutras into their key points, think of the sutras as wine, and sastras as brandy, the latter distilled from the former.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


tkp67 said:
Should this be interpreted that you feel all east asian lotus based traditions are counterfeit? If not what is the basis of discrimination?

Malcolm wrote:
I regard as false any claim that the Lotus is the end-all-be-all teaching of the Buddha, that it represents the final word on the Buddha's teaching in his career as a nirmāṇakāya 2500+- years ago.

tkp67 said:
Yet your comparison is based on a juxtapose comparison of form not an evaluation based on how it was taught to be interpreted by the patriarchs of the EA lineage. I think it is fair to say the evaluation of Tibetan tantra practice by merely reading some tantra they find on their own would fall flat as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. I am not evaluating this text based on how it was received and understood in China by the Tientai school. I am evaluating this text based on how it is cited and understood in India.

In general, based on the sheer number of Indian commentaries for it, the Perfection of Wisdom group of sutras is by far the most important group of sutras in India. Not only are there more commentaries on them, but the Perfection of Wisdom sutras are by far the largest group.

Further, you will find it said in the tantras that the only effective practice in this day and age is Vajrayana practice.

So, as usual, it all depends on who you are inclined to believe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 10:24 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
"Zhi yi" in pinyin, "Chih-i" in wade-giles spelling. Pronounced "jurr-yee"

"Xi yi" in pinyin would be pronounced "shee-yee"

Malcolm wrote:
Never studied Chinese.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 8:29 AM
Title: Re: Emphasis on Dream Yoga
Content:


Jangchup Donden said:
Well you can practice Vajrayana with a Hinayana intention (after all, our intentions aren't perfect), it's just that you'll only get at best a Hinayana result.

PeterC said:
No, you can’t. You would probably be committing a root downfall.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, one cannot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 8:14 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Xi Yi

Minobu said:
Xi Yi

Caoimhghín said:
I don't think "Xi Yi" is correct. "Zhiyi" or "Zhi Yi" if you want to separate the components. Obviously there are diacritics if you have an international keyboard. Wades-Giles is different too, but doesn't render the Pinyin "zh" as "x," but rather as "ch."

"X" is a non-retroflex "sh" in Pinyin.

Malcolm wrote:
Sounds the same to me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
The affliction arises from ignorance.

Minobu said:
i don't see how the common cold arises from ignorance..but lets say for argument's sake it does...

what is the cause of this ignorance in the sentient to bring about the affliction which causes suffering...

Malcolm wrote:
Suffering conditions affliction, which causes karma, which causes more suffering, which conditions more affliction, etc. There is no beginning in other words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Dharmakaya Body View
Content:
Minobu said:
What exactly is the Dharmakaya Body.

Malcolm wrote:
According to Maitreya and Asanga:

[Asanga explains:]
If it is asked what the dharmakāya, [Maitreya states]:

The dharmakāya has two aspects:
the very pure dharmadhātu
and that explication of the methods
and the variety that corresponds with that cause.

[Asanga explains:] The dharmakāya of the buddha is understood in two aspects. The very pure dharmadhātu is the domain that is the experiential domain of nonconceptuality. That is understood as the dharma the tathāgatas know personally. The cause of obtaining that is the corresponding cause, the very pure dharmadhātu, which is perceived in sentient beings according to how they are to be tamed. 

Further, that is known from the perspective of the dharma to be explained. Also the explanation has two aspects, divided into subtle and vast dharmas. This is as follows: from the perspective of ultimate truth, the bodhisattva piṭaka explicates the method of presenting the profound dharma. From the perspective of relative truth, there are methods of presenting many varieties of [teachings] such as the sūtras, praises, predictions, verses, the sayings, and nidanas, and so on. 

 [Maitreya states]:
Beyond the world, but in the world—
because the example for this cannot be indicated,
the tathāgata itself and the element
are explained to be similar. 
The subtle and profound method of explaining
is like the one taste of honey.
The way of explaining diverse aspects
is like the heart of different bodies.

[Asanga explains:] As such, the three examples of the buddha statue, honey, and the heart, from the perspective of the meaning of the dharmakāya of the tathāgata pervading all sentient beings, these sentient beings are called "possessors of the essence of the tathāgata." That sentient being who exists outside the dharmakāya of the tathāgatas does not exist in the realm of sentient beings at all. 

The element of space is like matter. How? It is said:

Just as the element of space is held to always goes everywhere, 
likewise, that [dharmakāya] always goes everywhere. 
Just as space goes into all matter,
likewise, that goes into the multitude of sentient beings.

Then you must ask, what is the dharmadhātu?

[Maitreya states]:
Because the dharmadhātu is 
naturally pure, it is luminosity.

Then you must ask, what is luminosity?

The answer:

[Asanga explains:] Because that mind is luminous by original nature, it is seen that afflictions are natureless.

So, the luminosity of the mind is the dharmadhātu, the realization of the dharmadhātu is the dharmakāya.

And to sum it up, the Perfection of Wisdom states:

There is no mind in the mind, but the original nature of the mind is luminous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics (split from: Reversing Global Warming -Prayers and Aspirations")
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
We can live in Ecotopia, or in a full-on ecofascist regime where the border guards use electric trucks to round up the climate migrants, or something in between.

Malcolm wrote:
we are closer to the latter than the former.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Minobu said:
Nichiren teaches that all non buddhist teachings are actually Buddhist.

Due to the fact they prepared the world for Buddhism..he sites Confucius and Lao Tzu and Brahmanism ..
People have gotten lost in concepts of sunyata and Mind only school, To the point compassion for sentients is just not there due to ideas that it is all an illusion , nothing really exixits.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Aside from the fact that “nothing really exists” (nihilism) isn’t the view of other Buddhist schools, can you please clarify the point made above...
“... all non buddhist teachings are actually Buddhist.”
—but somehow, other Buddhist schools (In Nichiren’s opinion) aren’t actually Buddhist??

Minobu said:
It's a view that in order for people to be able to understand Buddhism , they need preparation. It's in the gosho Malcolm just read and explains it fully.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it mostly is a restatement of Tientai doctrine.

Xi Yi was a very brilliant scholar, but I don't accept the five periods scheme. Therefore, I don't accept Nichiren teleology concerning the Lotus Sūtra. I am not telling you not to accept it. I am stating I don't accept it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:



Minobu said:
ok so malcolm thinks  that karma happens now and then...it sort of crops up and wham happens...so it's like a thing waiting to happen to him...

Malcolm wrote:
No. I think karma is caused by affliction (kleśa) and results (vipāka) in suffering (dukkha).


Minobu said:
So the affiliation that caused the sentient to suffer arose out of no karmic cause on the part of the sentient  ...but then created Karma...



edit simpler

So the affliction arose on it's own accord with no karma  cause .....and then karma was created.


Malcolm wrote:
-->affliction-->action-->suffering-->affliction-->action-->suffering-->


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 9th, 2021 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Dharmakaya Body View
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
Dharmakaya has no appearances.

Minobu said:
yeah i get that totally...

we don't see it...but it permeates everything due to the Buddha's will...yes / no /

it's not just realization...yes / no ?

it is a body..so what are it's capabilities?

Malcolm wrote:
Ten powers, four fearlessnesses, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:


Genjo Conan said:
I believe what my teachers and ancestors teach me, I suppose because it's my karma to do so, but I don't think that anyone else is under any obligation to feel the same way.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


Minobu said:
your eyes can become opened in this gosho.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/30#Part%20One

Malcolm wrote:
I've read it. I don't agree with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


tkp67 said:
Should this be interpreted that you feel all east asian lotus based traditions are counterfeit? If not what is the basis of discrimination?

Malcolm wrote:
I regard as false any claim that the Lotus is the end-all-be-all teaching of the Buddha, that it represents the final word on the Buddha's teaching in his career as a nirmāṇakāya 2500+- years ago.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 9:43 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
markatex said:
In Nichiren Buddhism, the Lotus Sutra is regarded as the Sutra by which all Buddhas attain enlightenment. You can disagree all you like, but that is our position.

Ekayana in Nichiren Buddhism is understood in a very different way than it is in other traditions. Our understanding is that the upaya of other sutras is to be abandoned in favor of the ekayana of the Lotus Sutra, not that all approaches are contained in the Lotus and therefore all approaches are ekayana.

Malcolm wrote:
I did not respond to the op in this forum.

Your understanding is not the normative understanding of the Indian masters. While it is an intellectual curiosity, I don’t find your interpretation convincing based on what the sutra itself says, viz., parable of burning house, and how the text itself is understood in the country of its origin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 9:40 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
markatex said:
This is still the Nichiren forum, isn’t it? Has there been a rule change that allows anyone to go to any tradition’s sub forum and argue that said tradition is wrong?

Norwegian said:
This thread was split and moved from General Mahayana, to this sub forum.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, a poor choice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 7:11 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Könchok Chödrak said:
Well it’s clear in the text of the Burton Watson translation:
"The way of the bodhisattva is the same as this. As long as a person has not yet heard. Not yet understood. And not yet been able to practice this Lotus Sutra, then you should know that person is still far away from anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. Why? Because all bodhisattvas who attain anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in all cases do so through this sutra. This sutra opens the gate of expedient means and shows the form of true reality. This storehouse of the Lotus Sutra is hidden deep and far away where no person can reach it. But the Buddha, teaching, converting and leading to success the bodhisattvas, opens it up for them.

"Medicine King, if there are bodhisattvas who, on hearing this Lotus Sutra, respond with surprise, doubt and fear, then you should know that they are bodhisattvas who have only newly embarked on their course. And if there are voice-hearers who, on hearing this sutra, respond with surprise, doubt, and fear, then you should know that they are persons of overbearing arrogance.
https://nichiren.info/buddhism/lotussutra/text/chap10.html

In a sense the Buddha is saying that everything He teaches comes from the Lotus Sutra, even the entirety of Buddhism and vice versa, conceptually we can understand this because everything in Buddhism brings one closer to Enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
I understand you believe that everything the Buddha taught comes from the Lotus Sutra. But I do not find support for that position in the text you’ve cited. See section 10.31 in the 84000 version. There is no mention of all bodhisattvas attaining buddhahood based on this sūtra.  Just to be clear, I do not have doubt, surprise, or fear of what the Buddha taught in the Lotus Sutra. The Buddha’s Dharma is a many faceted gem. The Lotus is one of those facets, but it is only a facet, not the whole gem, not for me. YMMV.

All this section says is:

"It is because this Dharma teaching is the supreme elucidation of the teachings that have an implied meaning of the secret aspect of the Dharma taught by the tathāgatas, arhats, perfectly enlightened buddhas so that the bodhisattva mahāsattvas may attain complete accomplishment."

In other words, in this sūtra, the implied meaning that is revealed is the ekayāna. That's it. This is how it is understood by Maitrya, Śantideva, and other great Indian masters, who are the ones in whom I place my faith when it comes to accurately portraying the meaning of Mahāyāna Dharma.

Moreover, in my tradition, there is a text called the Tantra of the Sole Heir of All Buddhas. This text arises as the sound of dharmatā, the very sound of reality itself, which is self-originated; and it is the text, according to my tradition, that is explicitly responsible for buddhahood of all buddhas. All Dharma teachings come from this tantra alone. I don't expect you to believe this, but this is what this text states.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: To whom should I pray to for money and wealth and how?
Content:
Queequeg said:
NMRK NMRK

Single mindedly pursue wealth. Every waking moment geared to making wealth. You need the kind of faith to walk through fire. Do what needs doing, not that voice looking for comfort. Approach it like it was an austerity. Money to free you so you can practice.

You may have to forget Dharma practice for a while. You might feel you have lost your way at some point. Remember you went that path for dharma and be ready to let it go when the time comes.

I'm not kidding. But keep in mind you will be attempting to change the momentum of your karma. Not easy. Not without obstacles. Not without suffering. Depending on how far off the mark your present momentum is from wealth, it might take a lot.

And don't forget to dedicate that merit, cultivate gratitude and care and equanimity. This path does not seem like it could be wholesome, bit it can be with the right inner attitudes.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the path of ulcers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:



Könchok Chödrak said:
If a certain disciple needs words to become Enlightened, if that is what His or Her Bodhicitta is thirsting for, then perhaps it is okay to use many words over a long period of time to explain to them the importance of certain Buddhist factors.

Malcolm wrote:
I was objecting to your claim that the Lotus Sūtra is the sūtra through which buddhas attain buddhahood.

Könchok Chödrak said:
How do you feel about Buddha Himself making the claim within it’s text?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't find this claim in that text, "the Sutra by which Buddhas become Enlightened," at least not in the 84000 translation, which I regard as being the most accurate thus far.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Emphasis on Dream Yoga
Content:



Hazel said:
Is it considered an advanced teaching in all of them?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, yes.

Hazel said:
I'll have to be patient then. I have a knack for lucid dreaming and have been experimenting with practicing in my dreams (mantra recitations mostly). I was hoping to try to dive into a bit more.

I also have been met with same great misfortune and am now looking for another teacher and am eying other traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
It is generally considered connected with the completion stage, that's all. But if you are able to recognize you are dreaming when you are dreaming, then this is sufficient.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: buddhas achieve enlightenment through LS (Was "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?)
Content:
Könchok Chödrak said:
it is so in the Lotus Sutra, the Sutra by which Buddhas become Enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas do not attain awakening by relying on words.

Könchok Chödrak said:
If a certain disciple needs words to become Enlightened, if that is what His or Her Bodhicitta is thirsting for, then perhaps it is okay to use many words over a long period of time to explain to them the importance of certain Buddhist factors.

Malcolm wrote:
I was objecting to your claim that the Lotus Sūtra is the sūtra through which buddhas attain buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Emphasis on Dream Yoga
Content:
Hazel said:
What traditions put the most emphasis on Dream Yoga?

Malcolm wrote:
All.

Hazel said:
Is it considered an advanced teaching in all of them?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are not going to find in the sūtras, whether Mahāyāna or Śrāvakayāna, any explanation that diverges from this.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Some folks are only interested in one sutra,
sometimes only learning the title of it
And from that, they magically know more than everyone else,
and that’s plenty enough for them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:



Minobu said:
ok so malcolm thinks  that karma happens now and then...it sort of crops up and wham happens...so it's like a thing waiting to happen to him...

Malcolm wrote:
No. I think karma is caused by affliction (kleśa) and results (vipāka) in suffering (dukkha).

BTW, there is no daylight between how affliction, karma, and suffering are presented in Mahāyāna sūtras and Śrāvakayāna sūtras. For example, Nāgārjuna's Commentary on his Heart of Dependent Origination:


Question: Which links are affliction, which are action karma, and which are suffering? Into which of these twelve will [affliction, action, and suffering] be included?

Reply: 

The first, eighth and ninth links are affliction.

The first of the twelve links is ignorance (āvidya); the eighth link is craving (ṭṛṣṇā); the ninth link is addiction, (upādana). These three should be understood as affliction. If is asked which of those [twelve links] is action: 

The second and the tenth links are action. 

The second link is formations (saṃskāra) and the tenth link is existence (bhāva). These two dharmas can be understood to be included in action. 

Also, the remaining seven links are suffering.

Question: Those different [previous dharmas] were included in defilement and action, but which are the seven different remaining? 

Reply: Those can be understood to be included in suffering. These terms consciousness (vijñāna), name and form (nāmarūpa), six sense bases (ṣada-āyatana), contact, (sparśa), sensation (vedana), birth (jati), and aging and death (jarāmaraṇa) are inclusive of the sufferings such as the suffering of being separated from what is pleasant, meeting with what is unpleasant, and abandonment of the pleasurable.

So you see, the ultimate cause of suffering is affliction, not karma. Affliction causes karma, which then results in suffering. You are not going to find in the sūtras, whether Mahāyāna or Śrāvakayāna, any explanation that diverges from this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: Emphasis on Dream Yoga
Content:
Hazel said:
What traditions put the most emphasis on Dream Yoga?

Malcolm wrote:
All.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 8th, 2021 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:


Minobu said:
also it is theravada text you are using......why dodge the question..

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the Pali Canon is the word of the Buddha.

Minobu said:
you don't know how to interpret these things...

Malcolm wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, of course.

Minobu said:
lol

you never allow yourself to say you are wrong..

Malcolm wrote:
On this point, I am not wrong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:


Minobu said:
also it is theravada text you are using......why dodge the question..

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the Pali Canon is the word of the Buddha.

Minobu said:
you don't know how to interpret these things...

Malcolm wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
Minobu said:
even if you read that text it is not denying what i see as what influences each moment.

Malcolm wrote:
It is flatly contradicting you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:


Minobu said:
is this a theravada text ?

Malcolm wrote:
It is the word of the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Original enlightenment , Honbutsu, Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
sigh

Although I don't always agree with Malcolm, according to Nichiren, the most serious difficult to cure illnesses, are those illnesses due to karma.
and that's why it is in a category in and of itself in the sutra and in what john wrote..

but you don't get sick unless it is your karma to do so..

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha disagrees:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=585383#p585383


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:
illarraza said:
Polemics is one aspect of teaching others to chant Namu myoho renge kyo.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, then I have to say that while you are exceptionally inept at polemics, you are a pretty good cheerleader.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
Minobu said:
Well  obviously as anyone can see I am hard wired to believe that karma is at the root cause to what ever life moment we are in

Malcolm wrote:
These are the Buddha's words on the subject, perhaps they will disrupt your "hard-wiring."

Minobu said:
Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said:

"There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?"

"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma — (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."

When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts."

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.021.nypo.html

Thus, when you claim everything, including illness, is caused by karma, then you, like them, "go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 8:47 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
So, in terms of illness

Minobu said:
if you have the karma to get sick you do...if you don't you don't...

i don;t think there is any sickness suffered that is brought on  just by  happen chance...and i don't care what the etiology


but hey if you believe stuff happens to people because of something other than karma.. ...why even bother to practice any of the teachings of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha..

good luck with that ...

Malcolm wrote:
Again, Buddha himself stated that illness is primarily caused by the three poisons. Take it up with him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Könchok Chödrak said:
it is so in the Lotus Sutra, the Sutra by which Buddhas become Enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas do not attain awakening by relying on words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 10:59 AM
Title: Re: How do you feel about Buddhists getting involved in politics?
Content:
alderjerry@gmail.com said:
So what would you have done if you were working in this call centre ?

Zhen Li said:
The same actions but without the thought that it is political.

Malcolm wrote:
Everything humans do is political, as long as we belong to a polity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 10:55 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Minobu:

Actually, the cause of karma is affliction, desire, hatred, and ignorance. Desire, hatred, ignorance are the cause of most illnesses, because desire, hatred, and ignorance manifest in the body as "wind" (vāta), "bile" (pitta), and "phlegm" (kapha).

Now the one place you do have it right, is that the SUFFERING (a result) of illnesses is karmic, since karma ripens as neutral, painful or pleasant sensations. But the CAUSE of illness is the three humors. And the cause of the three humors is the three poisons. Karma does not cause the three poisons, the three poisons cause negative karma.

Karmic illnesses are illnesses that are a result, such as congenital blindness, and other incurable diseases. Curable diseases are not caused by karma. That is the distinction between humoral illnesses and karmic illnesses. There are also illnesses caused by spirits, and those attacks are general caused by engaging in nonvirtuous acts in temples, etc.

Minobu said:
you posted from the sutra basically what john posted.

you said , it's no longer there but you said...not all illness are caused by karma…

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, not all illness is caused by karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Minobu:

Actually, the cause of karma is affliction, desire, hatred, and ignorance. Desire, hatred, ignorance are the cause of most illnesses, because desire, hatred, and ignorance manifest in the body as "wind" (vāta), "bile" (pitta), and "phlegm" (kapha).

Now the one place you do have it right, is that the SUFFERING (a result) of illnesses is karmic, since karma ripens as neutral, painful or pleasant sensations. But the CAUSE of illness is the three humors. And the cause of the three humors is the three poisons. Karma does not cause the three poisons, the three poisons cause negative karma.

Karmic illnesses are illnesses that are a result, such as congenital blindness, and other incurable diseases. Curable diseases are not caused by karma. That is the distinction between humoral illnesses and karmic illnesses. There are also illnesses caused by spirits, and those attacks are general caused by engaging in nonvirtuous acts in temples, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:


illarraza said:
Without practice and study there is no Budhhism.

Malcolm wrote:
There are three wisdoms: hearing, reflection, and cultivation.

But that is not dancing on books. "Dancing on books" means spending endless time engaged in polemics that only serve to reinforce the bias of those who already agree with you.

Minobu said:
So if we discuss Nichiren dharma it's polemics but if you preach death bed awakenings it's not...

Malcolm wrote:
There are three opportunities to awaken: this life, the time of the death, or in the intermediate state. For your edification:

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh122.html

Minobu said:
The bodhisattva mahāsattva Ākāśagarbha then paid homage to the Blessed One and asked, “Blessed One, how should we think about the mind of a bodhisattva who is about to die?”
1.­4 The Blessed One replied, “Ākāśagarbha, when a bodhisattva is about to die, he should cultivate the wisdom of the hour of death. The wisdom of the hour of death is as follows:
1.­5 “All phenomena are naturally pure. So, one should cultivate the clear understanding that there are no entities.
1.­6 “All phenomena are subsumed within the mind of enlightenment. So, one should cultivate the clear understanding of great compassion.10
1.­7 “All phenomena are naturally luminous. So, one should cultivate the clear understanding of non-apprehension.
1.­8 “All entities are impermanent. So, one should cultivate the clear understanding of non-attachment to anything whatsoever.
1.­9 “When one realizes mind, this is wisdom. So, one should cultivate the clear understanding of not seeking the Buddha elsewhere.”

Malcolm wrote:
You can talk all you like about Nichiren's polemics. But it won't help you wake up. That goes for Tibetan Buddhist Polemics, Theravadin Polemics, Pure Land Polemics, etc. Its all basically a waste of time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Is Pure Land an alienated kind of Buddhism?
Content:
mansurhirbi87 said:
By the way this kind of criticism toward Pure Land buddhism comes since Feudal Japan.

Malcolm wrote:
So what?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:


illarraza said:
Without practice and study there is no Budhhism.

Malcolm wrote:
There are three wisdoms: hearing, reflection, and cultivation.

But that is not dancing on books. "Dancing on books" means spending endless time engaged in polemics that only serve to reinforce the bias of those who already agree with you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Könchok Chödrak said:
Giving the Buddha Primacy, why do we take refuge in the one Gautama Buddha and call the rest of the Buddhas His Sangha, even though they are Buddhas as well?

Malcolm wrote:
What we really go for refuge to is the dharmakāya, a buddha's realization.

We don't refer to the other Buddhas besides Śākyamuni Buddha as his Sangha, since they all have the same realization. There are some schools that seek to elevate Śākyamuni, and consider all other buddhas to be emanations of the former, but this is an erroneous understanding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 7th, 2021 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:
Queequeg said:
My personal opinion, and this is all it is, I think Nichiren had a much deeper interest in Shingon than he admits. Other than Kukai's judgment that in terms of profundity of teaching the Lotus ranks third (Avatamsaka second), he doesn't have much criticism to offer.

markatex said:
It's been a long time since I've read it in its entirely, but in the Shugo Kokka-ron, one of Nichiren's earliest writings, he repeatedly presents Honen's Jodo Shu teachings as being in opposition to what he refers to as "the Lotus-Shingon teaching" and refers to the Lotus, Nirvana, and Mahavairocana Sutras as "ryogi-kyo," or "sutras thoroughly revealing the truth." Nichiren's ideas definitely evolved over time, but at least at that early point, he seemed to put Hokke and Shingon Buddhism on almost equal footing.

I'm not sure if he speaks of Shingon this way in any other writings, but I've always found it curious.

illarraza said:
Nichiren explains that in the beginning, he refrained from critisizing (refuting) Shingon because of the difficulty of the task. In fact, in the earlier writings, he talked about the superiority of Shingon to Pure Land. Only after his experience at Tatsunokuchi did he begin to refute Shingon and, most importantly, in the Five Major Writings.

M

Malcolm wrote:
This is all just dancing on books. Its useless for awakening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:



FiveSkandhas said:
But the emergence of a new form of life could easily be offset by the disappearance of an equal number of beings elsewhere. Species go extinct and come into being all the time.

Malcolm wrote:
Huh? Mind streams never go extinct.

Have you considered the idea that you may have some unresolved attachment to physicalist views on the emergence of consciousness?

This is why I keep insisting on two factors: one, consciousness cannot be created and sentient beings are self-organized phenomena in toto. In order for a machine to be sentient, it would have to be possibly birth locus, a place where a being in the intermediate state would attempt to appropriate as a new series of aggregates.

AI does not satisfy criteria one, because machines are wholly fabricated devices, and do not exhibit self-organizing behavior. They can emulate that kind of behavior, but it is not true autopoiesis. They do not satisfy two, because there is simply no evidence that consciousness can appropriate a machine as a place of rebirth. Even if a consciousness could appropriate a machine as a place of rebirth, this still would not render machines —artificially— intelligent, and that consciousness would NOT be an emergent property at all.

Indeed, the only way I can imagine personally, an intelligent machine, is that someone might experience this as a personal hell, similar to stories where people are reborn in pillars, brooms, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
But the bottom line is that sentience isn’t a byproduct of material existence.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is also the fact that consciousness by definition is NOT an emergent property of matter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
Now, by the way, there is a practice manual of the Lung phag mo zab rgya by Tülku Tsullo, and, according to his understanding at least, one should visualize oneself as Hayagriva in union with Vajravarahi, not the other way round. I do not say that to object to what Malcolm wrote, but for further inquiry.

Malcolm wrote:
The main deity is Vajravārāhī, she is the main deity that is generated. All you have to do is check the Mka’ ‘gro lnga’i mchod pa’i phrin las kyi rim pa shes bya ba, and you will see this is so. Her description is first, as would normally be the case with the male principle, and Hayagriva's is second. Her description is comparatively detailed, his is a mere four lines. This is not from that text precisely, being from the later Tennyi Lingpa yang gter, but it is substantially the same:

གདན་སྟེང་ཡི་གེ་ཧྲཱིཿམའི་འཕྲོ་འདུ་ལས༔ གྲི་གུག་ཐོད་པ་འོད་དུ་ཞུ་བ་ལས༔ བདག་ཉིད་རྡོ་རྗེ་ཕག་མོ་སྐུ་མདོག་དམར༔ ཞལ་གཅིག་ཕྱག་གཉིས་ཞབས་གཉིས་བརྐྱང་བསྐུམ་མཛད༔ ཁྲོ་ཞལ་དམར་པོ་སྤྱན་གསུམ་མཆེ་བ་གཙིགས༔ དབུ་སྐྲ་སེར་པོ་མེ་ལོང་དྲིལ་བུས་བརྒྱན༔ སྤྱི་གཙུག་ཕག་ཞལ་ནག་མོ་ངུར་སྒྲ་སྒྲོག༔ ཕྱག་གཡས་གྲི་གུག་གཡོན་པས་ཐོད་པ་བསྣམས༔ མཆན་ཁུང་གཡོན་དུ་ཁ་ཊྭཱཾ་ཌཱ་རུ་འཛིན༔ རུས་པའི་རྒྱན་དྲུག་སྐུ་ལ་མཛེས་པར་བརྒྱན༔ མེ་རི་འབར་བའི་ཀློང་ན་འགྱིང་བག་བཞུགས༔ དཔའ་བོ་རྟ་མགྲིན་དམར་པོ་གར་སྟབས་མཛད༔ དབུ་གཙུག་རྟ་མགོ་ལྗང་གུ་རྟ་སྐད་འཚེར༔ ཕྱག་གཡས་གྲི་གུག་གཡོན་པས་ཐོད་པ་བསྣམས༔ དུར་ཁྲོད་ཆས་ཀྱིས་དཔའ་བོའི་སྐུ་ལ་བརྒྱན༔

I have seen thankas of this, but they are not available in public.

In the end it does not matter much, since both forms are present in the KN/KY, that is Hayagriva as the principle, and Vārāhī as the principle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
How can you define machine generated code as "self-organized?" The rules it follows are predetermined by a human...Code will never be free of the fact that we wrote the initial algorithms...

This is not the case in natural selection for example. Natural selection is self-organized in toto. There is no creator who set the ball rolling...

FiveSkandhas said:
Not necessarily applicable. First of all, neural network computing is not linearly "coded". Rather, massive amounts of information are fed into the input, and connection strengths are adjusted until the desired output is achieved. The process is more akin to "training" than old-fashioned "coding." It's closer to the way a parent trains a child.

Moreover, AI can already autonomously create new AI with no human input.

But even leaving aside these facts, the deeper threat is that at some point in the future,  self-awareness would spontaneously emerge from a sufficiently connectivity-rich, information-dense environment. This is a possibility that cannot be denied.

And such an emergent phenomenon would certainly be subject to natural selection.

Malcolm wrote:
Another problem with your hypothesis is that the Buddha defined the number of sentient beings to be finite, uncountable, but finite. The sattvadhātu can neither increase nor decrease, which rules out the emergence of a new sentient being. But that all depends on whether you take the Buddha's word for it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
How can you define machine generated code as "self-organized?" The rules it follows are predetermined by a human...Code will never be free of the fact that we wrote the initial algorithms...

This is not the case in natural selection for example. Natural selection is self-organized in toto. There is no creator who set the ball rolling...

FiveSkandhas said:
Not necessarily applicable. First of all, neural network computing is not linearly "coded". Rather, massive amounts of information are fed into the input, and connection strengths are adjusted until the desired output is achieved. The process is more akin to "training" than old-fashioned "coding." It's closer to the way a parent trains a child.

Moreover, AI can already autonomously create new AI with no human input.

But even leaving aside these facts, the deeper threat is that at some point in the future,  self-awareness would spontaneously emerge from a sufficiently connectivity-rich, information-dense environment. This is a possibility that cannot be denied.

And such an emergent phenomenon would certainly be subject to natural selection.

Malcolm wrote:
Have it your way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 11:13 AM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:


Jesse said:
From the view of selflessness what is Volition?

Malcolm wrote:
A mental factor.

Jesse said:
If humans posses volition, and do so without self hood, what is this volition, and why couldn't a machine have it?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s a mental factor, which arises with a mind, which rocks and mechanical circuits, no matter how sophisticated, will never have.

Jesse said:
What I don't understand about the argument that machines can't posses sentience, is that the only real difference is what our bodies are made of, what the materials are made of. In both structure, and function, a machine designed to be human like, is actually human like.. there are differences, but there are also similarities.

Malcolm wrote:
Design…that’s the point— sentient beings cannot be designed; there is no designer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
Do you believe a machine could suffer?

Jesse said:
I don't know. From what I've seen I suspect so, but it's genuinely difficult to know for sure.  At the end of the day, Buddha said 'There is Duḥkha', if a machine can think, why can't it experience suffering?

Malcolm wrote:
The question is not "can a machine emulate thought;" the question is, "can a machine experience the causes and results of action." In other words, can machines act; will they ever have true volition?

I think not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Sentience requires self-organized replication and continuation. Machines will never achieve this, since they have never been self-organized entities, but created entities.

FiveSkandhas said:
This statement is open to debate. Especially the "will never" part, even if one accepts "have never."

...

1) AI can already create new computer programs...

Malcolm wrote:
Let me stop you right there. How can you define machine generated code as "self-organized?" The rules it follows are predetermined by a human. This is not the case in natural selection for example. Natural selection is self-organized in toto. There is no creator who set the ball rolling, unlike algorithms that govern automatic code generation by computers.

The key point is self-organization, that elegant word, "autopoiesis."

In order for a system to be autopoietic, there cannot be a hint of external, intentional agency anywhere. Machines will never be free of the fact that we invent them. Code will never be free of the fact that we wrote the initial algorithms. Machine intelligence will never be sentient, and neer be more than simulacra of human decision-making processes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Wow. It’s like a dream come true haha. I have really been wondering if there are any practices where the dakini is the main deity. Lo and behold it’s in the Khandro Nyingthig. Are there any other practices, besides the two mentioned here, that you can think of?

Malcolm wrote:
Not that I can think of. And it is in the Khandro Yangthig, not the Nyinthig.

KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
I was under the impression that Khandro Yangthig was commentary on the K Nyingthig. Is this not the case?

Malcolm wrote:
The KY has a great deal of independent revelations by Longchenpa. It is more of a continuation, that has original material, plus a very long commentary that synthesizes the stages of practice of the KN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
... is the klong gsal 'bar ma nyi ma rgyud, which, according to JLA, is a terma of Nyangral.

mutsuk said:
I asked JL about this several times and his opinion is that the Klong gsal by Nyang-ral is not the Klong gsal quoted in the Khandro Nyingthik. Nyang-ral's Klong gsal is a Yang-ti Tantra so it cannot be the source for the Khandro Nyingthik's quotes. However, the actual quotes can be found in the Klong gsal don rgyud (of Ratna Lingpa) and the Klong gsal ma rgyud (of Dorje Lingpa), as well as in versions from earlier tertöns.

Malcolm wrote:
The klong gsal 'bar ma nyi ma is definitely the text the KN is based; Dorje's Lingpa's extension of it is clearly later.

For example, the klong gsal in 112 chapters is commonly cited as a proof texts for inner rushan, etc.

This is also not Ratna Lingpa's later text, since citations from the "klong gsal" are found in the long tantra in 112 chapters. It is also not the same as the one revealed by Rin chen gling pa found in the Derge rNying ma rgyud 'bum.

The first 25 chapters of the 112 chapter klong gsal are short versifications of the Rang shar's first 25 chapters, more or less.

So, if it is not Nyangral's, then its origin is still anonymous for now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:
Könchok Chödrak said:
The concept of Anatta is the concept of not-self. What is the difference between the Emptiness of the human and the Emptiness of an artificial intelligence?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing, but that is only at the ultimate level.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Wow. It’s like a dream come true haha. I have really been wondering if there are any practices where the dakini is the main deity. Lo and behold it’s in the Khandro Nyingthig. Are there any other practices, besides the two mentioned here, that you can think of?

Malcolm wrote:
Not that I can think of. And it is in the Khandro Yangthig, not the Nyinthig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mind streams cannot be newly created. A sentient machine would have to be the rebirth of a being in the six realms. But I've never heard of the "machine realm" listed among the six.

In order for a machine to suffer, which is a result, it would have to be able to generate negative karma, the cause of suffering. In order to generate negative karma it would have to possess afflictions, the cause of karma.

FiveSkandhas said:
What if a sentient machine is a member of one of the six realms? Why couldn't it be classified as, say, a kind of Deva or Asura? Or a hungry ghost, hell being, or even an advanced animal for that matter?

What if what science calls the spontaneous emergence of sentence is in fact a form of reincarnation, so no new mind-stream is created?

What makes you so sure it couldn't possess afflictions?

Malcolm wrote:
I am afraid that this question can only be answered definitively by someone who has the higher cognitive ability (abhijñā) to know the minds of others. However, Buddha denied sentience in plants very clearly. Thus, just as we deny sentience in plants, etc., the Buddhist position will be that machines cannot be sentient. Suffering requires karma and affliction as causes. Sentience requires self-organized replication and continuation. Machines will never achieve this, since they have never been self-organized entities, but created entities. We sentient beings are not created, our mind streams are beginningless.  There has never been a moment in time when our mind streams did not exist. Now, is it possible some unfortunate preta could inhabit a machine? I guess so. A deva or an asura would not bother, because other than the most pure bhikṣus and bhikṣunīs, we humans smell very nauseating to them, like a rotting pit of offal. Possession is not rebirth thought, since there is no gradual development from conception, and in fact, apparitional births like hell beings, bardo beings, pretas, and devas, are basically mind-made bodies supported by the air element. Recall, there are four kinds of birth, not a fifth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Danny said:
Malcolm what do you make of Crowleys “alien” Lama.

Malcolm wrote:
Too much heroin, taken to deal with his chronic and disabling asthma issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
The way you phrased the varahi/hayagriva bit sounds like varahi is the main meditational deity and not hayagriva. This is the opposite of what i have come to expect from yidam practice. Is this the case?

Malcolm wrote:
In the Gongpa Zangthal Vārāhī practice, and a very similar sadhana composed by Longchenpa in the Khandro Yangthig, yes, Vārāhī is the main deity, and Hayagriva is the consort, not the other way around. Another sadhana with this format is Khentse Wangpo's Chime Phagma Nyinthig, where White Tāra is the main deity, embraced by Avalokiteśvara as Narteśvara, Lord of the Dance (some say this is Amitabha, but that does not really make sense), lord of the dance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
The basic (though not ultimate) explanation is: because, while composing his manual, as he was not satisfied by the previously existing Gongpa Zangthal manuals, he used the Zab don rgya mtsho'i sprin as a canvas, at least for the parts for which he did not find a sufficient structure in the Khrid gzhung of the Gongpa Zangthal. But I suspect another, deeper, idea, such as suggesting some form on natural articulation of the Gongpa Zangthal and the Khandro Nyingthik.

Malcolm wrote:
The GZ, arguably belongs to the Padma Snying thig genre. The root text of the Padma Snying thig is the klong gsal 'bar ma nyi ma rgyud, which, according to JLA, is a terma of Nyangral. The source of these dakinis mantras seems to be the pho them mo them tantra, also a terma of Nyang. The whole Hayagriva/Vārāhī (rta phag) thing seems to begin around his time. But maybe someone has more info about an earlier manifestation of this. Certainly, it also figures in Yuthok's Snying thig as well.

Of course, we have to observe that apart from some tantras that Godem included versions of, like the sangs rgyas rang chas (originally revealed by lCe sgom nag po), and a couple of others, and the Buddhahood, Godem virtually never cites from the 17 tantras either.

As for locating the source of the klong gsal citations, its a useful exercise and provides clarity around how Longchenpa understood these citations. If I were translating the text you've been working on, I would do it, especially since now they are easily locatable in an e-text at Buddhanexus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Given that the KN is a self-described commentary on the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma, you might wish to do a little more heavy lifting and identify where those passages are located.

Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
Tulku Thondup has already done that long ago, but it did not work so well. While what I did works perfectly with the Zab don rgya mtsho'i sprin. That is Tülku Tsullo's real and ultimate source for many quotations. I think that it is philologically more important to identify the real sources, if you want to understand a Tibetan text, than the sources of these sources. Many things become clear when you read Tülku Tsullo's text with the Zab don rgya mtsho'i sprin, while Tulku Thondup's identifications did not bring any clarification – especially on the main question: why should Tülku Tsullo quote so many times the Klong gsal, which is never ever quoted in the Gongpa Zangthal? The basic (though not ultimate) explanation is: because, while composing his manual, as he was not satisfied by the previously existing Gongpa Zangthal manuals, he used the Zab don rgya mtsho'i sprin as a canvas, at least for the parts for which he did not find a sufficient structure in the Khrid gzhung of the Gongpa Zangthal. But I suspect another, deeper, idea, such as suggesting some form on natural articulation of the Gongpa Zangthal and the Khandro Nyingthik.

As for what you suggest of Rigdzin Gödem being inspired by Longchenpa's writings, honestly, I strongly doubt that he could have a complete set of them at the time when he opened the Zangzang Lhadrak. It is not as if they were "published" in the modern sense. Remember in Longchenpa's biography when his disciple, I think Özer Gocha, brought him the Khandro Nyingthik texts: it is quite plain that these texts were rare and not widespread, surely not printed at all, in those times. And my feeling is that it is much more likely that Gödem got all that from the "other side", I mean, the Karmapa / Yungtönpa one, not the Longchenpa one. But this is a pure conjecture, so far we have zero knowledge, if I am not mistaken, on this question.

Tell me if I am wrong.

The fact that there are parts in common between the Gongpa Zangthal and the Khandro Nyingthik does not have to mean that the one borrowed from the other; they may both have a common source, whatever it may have been.

Malcolm wrote:
All I know is that Longchenpa has a sadhana he composed in the KY, which features Vajravārāhī with Hayagriva as her consort. The same arrangement is presented in the GZ.

The mantras are all the same, check the mkha' 'gro sngags kyi lde migs in GZ, v. one, 364-365, KN, vol.2 331-332; as well as the mkha' 'gro gsang sgrub dngos grub gter gyi 'bum pa, GZ vol. 365-371, KN, vol.1 321-328. They are identical texts. Pretty sure there are a couple of more that are identical which must come from the KN; aside from the six liberation through wearing tantras in vol 2 of the GZ and vol. 2 of the KN. This means these texts were inserted into the GZ at some point, and whether it was by Godem himself or some later compiler, I don't know. Not only this, but the main four empowerment texts for the GZ in vol. 1 very much resemble Longchenpa's empowerment for the KN/KY. This does not mean that Godem was influenced by Longchenpa, but at minimum it means that there is a common source.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Really though, I think it’s better to be on neither team at the end of the day; wouldn’t you say?

Malcolm wrote:
In terms of preference, I find those German and Austrian guys humorless and stuffy. I enjoyed reading Crowley much more, though reading some of Steiner's biodynamic methods are hoot. I still find Crowley entertaining, and more grounded in terms of yoga and Buddhist meditation than those other fellows. But of course, Thelema is a path long abandoned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
Some people in this thread seem convinced that machine intelligence / sentience / consciousness / suffering is impossible and/or irrelevant but I haven't seen any strong arguments to that effect.

Malcolm wrote:
If machine sentience were possible, it would have to be capable of appropriating a new series of aggregates, and would have to be a rebirth.


FiveSkandhas said:
Given the possibility that these things could cause and/or experience suffering in ways and to extents never before fathomed, I think to dismiss them as "just artificial" ignores some very serious potentials.

Malcolm wrote:
Mind streams cannot be newly created. A sentient machine would have to be the rebirth of a being in the six realms. But I've never heard of the "machine realm" listed among the six.

In order for a machine to suffer, which is a result, it would have to be able to generate negative karma, the cause of suffering. In order to generate negative karma it would have to possess afflictions, the cause of karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:
Unknown said:
Then, last month, OpenAI says, it discovered AI Dungeon also showed a dark side to human-AI collaboration. A new monitoring system revealed that some players were typing words that caused the game to generate stories depicting sexual encounters involving children. OpenAI asked Latitude to take immediate action. "Content moderation decisions are difficult in some cases, but not this one,” OpenAI CEO Sam Altman said in a statement. “This is not the future for AI that any of us want."

Latitude turned on a new moderation system last week—and triggered a revolt among its users. Some complained it was oversensitive and that they could not refer to an “8-year-old laptop” without triggering a warning message. Others said the company’s plans to manually review flagged content would needlessly snoop on private, fictional creations that were sexually explicit but involved only adults—a popular use case for AI Dungeon.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.wired.com/story/ai-fueled-dungeon-game-got-much-darker/

Unknown said:
Ever since the internet turned Microsoft's Tay racist and genocidal, forcing Microsoft to shut down the chatbot within 24 hours, we’ve known how susceptible artificial intelligence (AI) can be to turning evil.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.techradar.com/news/mit-creates-psychopath-ai-using-the-dark-side-of-reddit


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
Dear Malcolm, no need – because I have already found: none of them is taken directly from any version of the tantra; all are borrowed from Longchenpa's Zab don rgya mtsho'i sprin, where they occur in exactly the same order, exactly the same form, about the same topics.

Malcolm wrote:
Given that the KN is a self-described commentary on the klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma, you might wish to do a little more heavy lifting and identify where those passages are located.

Also the Vajravārāhī sadhana is clearly linked with Longchenpa's version in the KY, since the consort is Hayagriva, rather than the other way around, as in the KN.

The GN Phag mo zab khrid, on the other hand, seems entirely original.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 6th, 2021 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The form they are presented in the GZ is identically to what is presented in the KN.

Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
Thanks ! Now have you noticed that Tülku Tsullo quotes the Klong gsal very often (I think 39 times, but as people are extremely precise on this forum, they will surely correct that it is 38…!) in his practice manual of the Gongpa Zangthal ? Do you know where the quotations are borrowed from ?

Even Tulku Thondup did not notice it, he tried to find them all in the "original" text (and that does not work so well, he often has to say that this corresponds to that passage "in substance").

Malcolm wrote:
I have not read that text.

I would assume that klong gsal nyi ma 'bar ma. Have you tried Buddhanexus?

You can plug in a passage there and see if it corresponds to the klong gsal tantra in the Nyingma kama.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:
PeterC said:
So I see no particular reason to think humanity will suddenly learn discipline in this regard.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed, but we have to register our objections anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:


Sādhaka said:
The only ones I have much respect for—that is regarding who I’m aware of—out of all that mess, are Rudolf Steiner, Arnold Krumm-Heller, Franz Hartmann; and maybe Kellner.

Malcolm wrote:
Team Crowley here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Danny said:
A lotta kinky stuff.


Sādhaka said:
Yea the O.T.O. people are into some weird stuff, and it’s not clear to me when the really weird stuff was introduced to the O.T.O.; that is if it was with Reuss later on, some years after the founding of the O.T.O., or if it was with the advent of Crowley.

Malcolm wrote:
The Ecclesiastic Mass was largely Crowley's version, completely with his novel interpretation of the "holy grail" and Parzifal's "lance."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:


KathyLauren said:
The Buddha did teach that only sentient beings suffer.  Such a Turing test of sentience would, in effect, indicate that the machine is sentient.  There is no reason to think that sentience is limited to biological organisms.  After all, the six realms of sentient beings include several for which we have no evidence at all of biology.

Malcolm wrote:
All sentient beings have, at minimum, a mental organ and a jivitendriya, an organ of life.

But more importantly, sentience self-organizes. No one created our mindstreams. In order for a machine to be sentient, a sentient being would have to be conceived as a machine. Among the four kinds of birth, which kind of birth would this be?

Finally, the Buddha taught three kinds of suffering—the suffering of suffering, the suffering of change, and the suffering of the compounded. The last of these is not restricted to sentient beings and applies to all compounded, afflictive phenomena (everything other than path dharmas).

In this case, Metzinger's definition of suffering as a experience is too limited. By the criteria of the third kind of suffering, machines already suffer. My comment was directed to the idea that machines can experience suffering. But suffering is not only an experience in a consciousness, it is also an existential fact about impermanent phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: "Negative phenomenology" and the "second explosion of suffering"
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
I support Metzinger's call for a total moratorium on the creation of machines with even the potential to suffer until we truly get a handle on this issue.

Malcolm wrote:
It is impossible. Sentience cannot be created. All examples of sentient life we observe arose out of a lengthy evolutionary process of self-organization. Therefore, the idea that machines can suffer is impossible, and just gross anthropomorphism.

However, there are other very good reasons to limit and tightly regulate so-called "AI" development, especially in military applications.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Von Braun, worked with Walt Disney:

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/history/vonbraun/disney_article.html

Von Braun also is said to have referred to JPL’s Jack Parsons as the “true father of the American space race”.



And then there is Stanley Kubrick:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/arts/design/kubrick-2001-museum-moving-image.html

“Space may be the final frontier, but it’s made in a Hollywood basement” (?) — The Red Hot Chili Peppers

Danny said:
Jack Parsons has a Ron Hubbard / Crowley connection.
If you’d like that rabbit hole.
A lotta kinky stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and there is a CBS show on Parson's with a somewhat silly presentation of the OTO in LA in the 1940's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
like who really killed JFK, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Ted Cruz's dad???


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
Now, that is fascinating, because we have no clue whether Rigdzin Gödem had any personal knowledge of the Khandro Nyingthik – and also because, if we are not mistaken about his dates, he was really much younger than Yungtönpa.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, either the six liberation through wearing tantras and the treasury of the mantras of ḍākinīs were added by someone else to the dgongs pa zang thal, or he included them himself.

Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
Thanks – But these texts are everywhere, no, at least the bTags [s]grol? You think they are originally from the Khandro Nyingthik?

Malcolm wrote:
The form they are presented in the GZ is identically to what is presented in the KN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: How do you feel about Buddhists getting involved in politics?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No one should expect politics to be enlightened.

FiveSkandhas said:
A judicious study of the relationship between Politics and Buddhism in Japanese history shows that Buddhism became repeatedly and darkly politicized in most cases while only very rarely did politics become enlightened.

... Live unknown if you would realize your end.
Follow the advice of your common sense.
Avoid the Imperial Audience Chamber, the Eastern Flowery Hall.
The dust of the times and the wind of the Northern Pass.
One hundred years is a long time,
But at last it comes to an end.
Meanwhile it is no greater accomplishment
To be a rich corpse or a poor one...
-Su Tung Po


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: How do you feel about Buddhists getting involved in politics?
Content:


Zhen Li said:
The idea is not to be passive, but rather redirecting our mental energy from a sphere over which we have no influence (politics)...

Malcolm wrote:
The idea we (collectively) have no influence over politics is demonstrably incorrect.

Zhen Li said:
We do not act collectively as Buddhists. We have different opinions on matters of Buddhist thought, let alone political thought.

Most Buddhist political parties historically have been extremely conservative and monarchist—which, from previous discussions here, is not necessarily the case with western Buddhists. So it is clear that there is not one political ideology that suits us collectively as Buddhists.

Unfortunately, people who get involved in politics with sincere intention are usually hoodwinked or taken advantage of by the corrupt participants (the same occurs in police forces).

Moreover, at the end of the day, politicians do not actually make policy, the civil service does. If you want to get involved in a real way, where you are involved in the actual process of drafting, limiting, and refusing or approving policies on a day to day basis, you should become a member of the civil service. They also ensure that policy does not actually change much, if at all, from one administration to another. Politicians, on the other hand, are a public face to government. Someone to blame. They use the three poisons in order to make people fear the consequences of choosing someone other than them.

Malcolm wrote:
By “we” I was referring to the general populace in a democratic state. We can indeed, with effort and dedication, effect change in our governments.

In reality, classical Buddhist skepticism of monarchy is deep seated, with Aryadeva, for example, mocking kings as great fools who do not recognize their power comes from the people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:



Danny said:
Not impressed by the so called physics at all.
Sure this is not just Chinese bragging about focused direct energy weapon development?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely Tesla coils, K?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


Nemo said:
That sounds like theism, at least in practice. Worship the giant space Father or Mother by following all the rules and they will reward you in the afterlife. How is your faith different from any of the 1000 other kooky cults out there?(real question, not rhetoric.)

Malcolm wrote:
No, it sounds like Buddhadharma.

No one rewards one for anything. When it is said one practices for the next life, it means one has the presence of mind to understand that one may not achieve buddhahood in this life.

Karma is not an imposed rule, and there is no person handing out rewards for behaving in a virtuous manner or punishments for behaving nonvirtuously.

There is no space father or mother, no rules, and no afterlife in which to receive a reward. The next life is not an "afterlife," it is the next life after this one, hopefully as a human being able to meet and practice the dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
Now, that is fascinating, because we have no clue whether Rigdzin Gödem had any personal knowledge of the Khandro Nyingthik – and also because, if we are not mistaken about his dates, he was really much younger than Yungtönpa.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, either the six liberation through wearing tantras and the treasury of the mantras of ḍākinīs were added by someone else to the dgongs pa zang thal, or he included them himself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
but just Rangjung Dorje's explanations of the well-known Nyingthik(s).

Malcolm wrote:
The line I quoted above is from the mentioned text, it is apparently considered a mind treasure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Seeking feedback/review: Pure Land Buddhism from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
The 48 Vows are vital at the Common Mahayana Pure Land level. Practices like Phowa on Vajrayana isn’t included so I suppose the 48 Vows isn’t the same in terms of importance from that perspective.

Thanks Malcolm

Malcolm wrote:
Charles B Jones, in his book Pure Land: History, Traditions, and Practices, argues pretty convincingly that what is understood as Pure Land Buddhism never existed anywhere other than the Sino-Japanese tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Changchub Dorje's root guru
Content:
rai said:
is it known who was Changchub Dorje's root guru?

thank you!

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Chanchub Dorje's gurus were Rangrig Dorje, Adzom Drukpa, and Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen, and possibly Pema Dudul.

Tata1 said:
Possibly? Somehow i thought pema dudul was his root guru.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a certain lack of clarity around his dates.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Seeking feedback/review: Pure Land Buddhism from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
The whole of Pure Land Buddhism is based on Amitabha’s 48 Vows.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no "pure land" Buddhism per se, in Tibetan Buddhism, in the sense one observes it in Sino-Japanese Buddhism. That does not mean that birth in pure buddhafields is of no concern in Tibetan Buddhism, but this is handled with aspirations and phowa.

One does not read Tibetan masters making sustained arguments about the meaning of the 48 vows and so on. The Halkias book is pretty comprehensive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Nemo said:
Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization?

Malcolm wrote:
We don’t practice for this life. We practice for the next life.

Realization is a not campaign badge one can show others. It’s undetectable by ordinary people. The only thing ordinary people can observe is the extraordinary compassion of realized people.

PadmaVonSamba said:
AVOIDING THE TEN FAULTS

Master Padma said: When practicing the Dharma, you must make sure not to fall into the ten faults.

The lady asked: What are these ten faults?

The master said: Although you may practice meditation, if it does not become a remedy against your disturbing emotions and thoughts, you have the fault of the oral instructions not being made effective.

Although you may have recognized your mind, if it does not liberate your consciousness free from partiality, you have the fault of not having met with the special instruction.

Although you may have strong devotion, if you do not receive the blessings, you have the fault of not having connected with an accomplished master.

Although you may exert yourself with great effort, if your practice does not progress, you have the fault of your mind not being fully purified. 

If you feel tired when engaging in spiritual practice, you have the fault of not having recognized the natural state of awareness.

Although you practice, if your mind is still scattered, you have the fault of not having gained confidence in meditation. 

If experience does not arise directly in your state of mind, you have the fault of having only strayed into Samatha.

If the strength of awareness does not arise in your being, you have the fault of not knowing how to take appearances as aids to the path.

If you find it difficult to cut through your attachment to disturbing emotions, you have the fault of not knowing how to take the five poisons as the path.

If you cannot cope with suffering and difficulties, you have the fault of not knowing how to turn your mind away from samsãra. 

In any case, when you claim to practice the Dharma while being full of faults within is there any chance to ever have good circumstances?

—-Dakini Teachings - 
Rangjung Yeshe Publications.

Malcolm wrote:
On the other hand, if Dharma is only for perfect, faultless people, it is of no value.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 5th, 2021 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
mutsuk said:
Not at all. It is not a guru-yoga nor a cycle but a very well-known single text entitled Nyams len lag khrigs ma'i khrid ngo mtshar can and nicknamed Karma Nyingthik. It is included in the Bima Nyingthik (vol. 4) and in the Sungbum of the 3rd Karmapa.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I had thought I had once seen a text of such a guru yoga, but perhaps I was recalling this line:


བི་མས་རྒྱལ་དབང་ཀརྨ་པ་རང་བྱུང་རྡོ་རྗེ་མངོན་སུམ་བྱིན་གྱིས་བརླབས་ནས་དགོངས་གཏེར་དུ་བསྩལ་བ་ཀརྨ་སྙིང་ཐིག་གོ

"Vimala, having blessed the Gyalwang Karmapa Rangjung Dorje in person, bestowed the mind treasure, the Karma Nyingthik.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Wow that is really interesting. I heard of some other nyingthig (perhaps sometimes counted in with the yabshi?) which was discovered by a karmapa. Maybe it is the same karmapa?

Thanks for your clarifying info my friend!

heart said:
No that is Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, the Karma Nyingtik.

/magnus

Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
There is no such thing as a «Karma Nyingthik» that would be really different from the two Nyingthiks (Bima- and Khandro-).


Malcolm wrote:
It is a Vimalamitra Guru Yoga, basically, connected with the Vima Nyinthik.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Norwegian said:
US intelligence officials have no evidence confirming Navy pilot UFO encounters were alien spacecraft Washington (CNN)US intelligence officials have found no evidence confirming that unidentified flying objects encountered by US Navy pilots in recent years were alien spacecraft but also have not reached a definitive assessment as to what these mysterious objects might be, according to five sources familiar with the findings of an upcoming report on UFOs that is expected to be delivered to Congress later this month.

According to three of those sources, the report does not however rule out the possibility they are alien spacecraft.
While that uncertainty is likely a blow to the hopes of UFO enthusiasts who were hoping for definitive proof of extraterrestrial life, it does not minimize the significance of the report, especially given what sources describe as a years-long battle inside the Pentagon over whether even to acknowledge what are now hundreds of unexplained sightings by US military personnel.

The New York Times was first to publish details of the upcoming report.

US officials also cannot rule out the possibility that these flying objects were aircraft belonging to American adversaries, namely Russia and China -- a potentially more troublesome conclusion that raises a host of potential national security concerns, one of the sources said.

However, the forthcoming report is expected to conclude that the objects are not secret American technology, the source added.
More:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/03/politics/intelligence-officials-navy-pilot-ufo-encounters/index.html

Malcolm wrote:
Tesla Coils, it can all be explained by Tesla coils....


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 9:26 PM
Title: Re: How do you feel about Buddhists getting involved in politics?
Content:


Zhen Li said:
The idea is not to be passive, but rather redirecting our mental energy from a sphere over which we have no influence (politics)...

Malcolm wrote:
The idea we (collectively) have no influence over politics is demonstrably incorrect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Changchub Dorje's root guru
Content:
rai said:
is it known who was Changchub Dorje's root guru?

thank you!

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Chanchub Dorje's gurus were Rangrig Dorje, Adzom Drukpa, and Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen, and possibly Pema Dudul.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:



Queequeg said:
We need some people to keep tabs on it and ring the alarm. I know myself and if I have one smoke, I'll be sucking down the pack before long.

Malcolm wrote:
What I do not use it for is dharma groups.

jake said:
What alternatives for general communication and general interest browsing do you see as good for dharma groups?

Malcolm wrote:
What I mean is that I do not participate in dharma forums. Facebook is an advertising platform, so it is good for that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:



tkp67 said:
To be discourage or encouraged doesn't an expectation need to be attached?

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily. For example, you are just blithely walking down a road with no expectation. Someone discourages or encourages you for some reason for continuing further.

tkp67 said:
In order to be blithely one needs to understand the minds of others as if they are one's own or there is no possibility of intent. At best it would be ignorance that cannot be relieved unless those minds that are offended can rationally communicate why.

Expecting people to know what is one one's mind simply by proxy is an exercise in futility. Expecting like minded homogeneity in the degenerate and technological age is also a fruitless endeavor.

Malcolm wrote:
This exchange is an exercise in futility.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Nemo said:
Is the Dharma really the Dharma if you practice for 30 years and it produces no realization?

Malcolm wrote:
We don’t practice for this life. We practice for the next life.

Realization is a not campaign badge one can show others. It’s undetectable by ordinary people. The only thing ordinary people can observe is the extraordinary compassion of realized people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 8:41 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: The man in the high castle series
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
I personally think The Boys blows it out of the water in terms of shows examining fascism, and is a lot more fun as well.

Malcolm wrote:
And gory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
What I do not use it for is dharma groups.

Queequeg said:
I never associated it with dharma. Just my samsaric predilections. Trumpist cousins took me down some dark avenues of my personality that are best left to atrophy.

I do miss some of the good parts of the platform. My wife's feed is baby pictures and rainbows. They say the world is a reflection of ourselves, and moreso thing like FB that are built to be enticing vanity mirrors. It goes without saying, my wife is a better person than I am.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I quit it after I saw the platform literally end friendships and estrange people, and then realized that’s built into FBs business model.

I felt better almost immediately and can’t imagine ever using it again. There are a couple of things I miss: sharing weird music occasionally, and knowing about local music events before COVID.

Malcolm wrote:
This is specifically why one needs to carefully manicure one's feed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:



tkp67 said:
If only I was capable of being discouraged.

Malcolm wrote:
We all have our limitations.

tkp67 said:
To be discourage or encouraged doesn't an expectation need to be attached?

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily. For example, you are just blithely walking down a road with no expectation. Someone discourages or encourages you for some reason for continuing further.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:


Queequeg said:
I don't know what you are getting at.

tkp67 said:
If only I was capable of being discouraged.

Malcolm wrote:
We all have our limitations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 4th, 2021 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:



Queequeg said:
Hm. Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
In other words, if buddhahood arises from causes and conditions, it would be compounded and impermanent. One could realize buddhahood, and then when the conditions for buddhahood ceased, one's realization would vanish.

Queequeg said:
Yes. I agree with that.

In this view, buddhahood is total, and sentient beings are also buddhas, but afflicted.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as taught in the Hevajra Tantra, and elsewhere.

Queequeg said:
The path, rather than being one of gradually accumulating merit and attaining buddhahood, as the Buddha who awoke at Gaya taught, is the shedding of afflictions, right?

In a sense, shedding is a mirror image of accumulating merit, but accumulating merit suggests that buddhahood is acquired. Shedding afflictions can in turn be gradual, as one might polish a raw diamond into a gem, by practicing repentance, observing precepts, etc., or sudden, by immediately entering the way, so to speak. The way I heard it explained in Dzogchen, for instance, is that we are introduced to this perfected state, and then practice is a matter of getting used to abiding in that view until we completely shed our shortcomings and limitations, and it is our default.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. The recognition of the basis (while not considered fully qualified buddhahood in terms of expression) is the path, and the result is the full expression of the potential of that basis which emerges when even the afflictions themselves revert into gnosis.


Queequeg said:
This, is unintelligible for the Western Philosopher Man, cousin of Economic Man, and Reasonable Man. If you say Buddha is prime to them, in their categories it means something different than is meant in High Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
No one said it was easy. To decide that one knows what another person's capacity is supposes that one is clairvoyant. It is characteristic of the Dzogchen approach to start at the top and work one's way down until understanding dawns, in other words, start with the truth of cessation, not the truth of suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Aemilius said:
There is no objective reality that everyone will see, perceive and believe.

Malcolm wrote:
There is an empirical reality that sane people agree upon. Many people see two moons, but there is only one.

Aemilius said:
In the Apoha and Yogachara view of the arising of perception we have imprints in our (alaya)consciousness, these imprints become activated when a sense-perception arrives through our sense-doors. The imprints are projected onto the perceptions, and we see these imprints as outer independent objects. We think that we see objective reality, which is not quite true, or not true at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. But Yogacāra etc., are lower tenet systems.

Aemilius said:
Do you see angels, spirits, bigfoot, yetis, etc..? Do you categorically deny the experience of persons whose world differs from what you experience? People's experiences in different time periods and cultures are never the same.

Malcolm wrote:
In order for the beings of the six realms to see the same liquid substance as amṛta, water, etc., there has to be a liquid substance that exists separate from their perception of said substance.

One does not reject the existence of outer objects, one merely rejects the idea that outer objects exist inherently.

To bring it back around to the topic: It is certain that someone is seeing something. But whether that is some kind of extra-terrestrial phenomena or craft or some unexplained terrestrial phenomena or secret tech is unknown by anyone on this forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


Queequeg said:
Is this a definitive view, irrespective of the listener, or is this a teaching for particular listeners?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitive, for me. YMMV.

Queequeg said:
Hm. Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
In other words, if buddhahood arises from causes and conditions, it would be compounded and impermanent. One could realize buddhahood, and then when the conditions for buddhahood ceased, one's realization would vanish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


Queequeg said:
Is this a definitive view, irrespective of the listener, or is this a teaching for particular listeners?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitive, for me. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:



Queequeg said:
I quit last year. I can't imagine subjecting myself to that again.

Malcolm wrote:
I still see it, but my feed is extremely manicured. Mostly news and entertainment, and I follow very few people.

Queequeg said:
We need some people to keep tabs on it and ring the alarm. I know myself and if I have one smoke, I'll be sucking down the pack before long.

Malcolm wrote:
What I do not use it for is dharma groups.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Queequeg said:
To say that the sun shines whether there is a being to observe or not suggests an unconditioned sun simpliciter...

Malcolm wrote:
Recall, the definition I provided at the beginning of this conversation in fact defines buddhahood as uncompounded simple entity ...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: What's with all the crankholes
Content:
DNS said:
It's not very active, but if you want very friendly, cordial discussion, it's at DP:

https://www.dharmapaths.com/

Everyone thought it would be a combat zone, with comparative religions and traditions being discussed, but it ended up being a love fest.

Of course there is friendly discussion here too, but it's easier to notice and remember the controversies and fighting than the more common beneficial times.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, if you love Nicholas Weeks, who subscribes to a lot of strange, far-right wing conspiracy theories.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:


Queequeg said:
I don't know what you are getting at.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Facebook is destroying the world.

Queequeg said:
I quit last year. I can't imagine subjecting myself to that again.

Malcolm wrote:
I still see it, but my feed is extremely manicured. Mostly news and entertainment, and I follow very few people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Queequeg said:
From a nondual conception, though, the entire dynamic is dependently original and so to say that one has primacy doesn't quite make sense and is rather arbitrary.


Malcolm wrote:
The sun does not care whether there are clouds or not, nor whether it is day or night. It just shines...

Nonduality is seriously overrated by Western Buddhists.

Queequeg said:
Or maybe dismissed too easily.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what one understands by "nondual."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Queequeg said:
From a nondual conception, though, the entire dynamic is dependently original and so to say that one has primacy doesn't quite make sense and is rather arbitrary.


Malcolm wrote:
The sun does not care whether there are clouds or not, nor whether it is day or night. It just shines...

Nonduality is seriously overrated by Western Buddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:
Queequeg said:
I want those young men building electric grids and high speed rail, not just hanging out in the parking lot in front of their waxed cars.

Malcolm wrote:
I'd rather they were doing that then hanging out in Qanon circles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This primacy of the Buddha can be well understood through the metaphor of the sun and its light.

The Buddha is the sun. The Dharma is its light. However, while we cannot always see the light of the sun, the sun is always there.

Without the light shed by the sun, of course, those in ignorance cannot see things the way they are, and they stumble around in darkness. But the light of the sun depends on proper conditions to illuminate the world, even though the sun is always there, whether it is day or night.

This is why the Buddha has primacy. Without the sun of the Buddha rising in the sky, his light does not shine on the world. And due to the misfortune of sentient beings, the sun of the Buddha will also set, even though the Buddha never moves from his place, and does not rise or set.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: How do you feel about Buddhists getting involved in politics?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Democracies require active participation by an educated and informed electorate. Refusing to engage in politics because [shock horror] one might experience afflictions is a copout, in my opinion, and just allows the uneducated and ill-informed to have an undue say in one's affairs. To protect others, bodhisattvas must protect themselves, and this is true in every area of life. Refusing to engage in the political life of one's nation or community is, frankly, irresponsible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: What's with all the crankholes
Content:
Minobu said:
You know hanging out in Buddhist Ville you would think compassion and nicest would abound.

But there are like quite a lot of angry people in here.

It doesn't make sense to me.

i have witnessed meanness galore, games to hurt people.

Snide comments meant to hurt.

Sarcasm made for like some clique.

All of which is so like counter productive.

Why????????????????

maybe if we are all honest and help each other with this ....

maybe just maybe......

amanitamusc said:
Here is the answer to your crankhole problem.It is actually a  pretty small solution .
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294054765041?hash=item447707a1f1:g:RlsAAOSwAjZgR8SK

Malcolm wrote:
But the crank cover trim ring is also necessary:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294054788698?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%3D314ce60b8de54db8bddac6b67907dd6b%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D294054765041%26itm%3D294054788698%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic%26brand%3DChevrolet&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
The canonical answer is not important. The principle is important. This is still the fallacy of appeal to authority. What matters in Mahayana is helping others. What helps are the basic principles like 4NT the 3 doors, Bodhicitta, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
You help others your way. I will do it my way. Deal?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 7:11 PM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:


tobes said:
But so is further decline. And the next few steps along that road are really too ugly to even contemplate.

Malcolm wrote:
Thirty million Americans+ subscribe to Qanon. That’s ten percent of the population, and one fifth of potential voters.

Facebook is destroying the world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 10:21 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You’ve missed the point I was making. But that’s ok. The Dharma, the textual Dharma, is relative and compounded.

haha said:
Without the Buddha, there is no Dharma. And without the dharma, there is no Buddha. The Buddha became Buddha because of direct apprehension of Dharma. And then, Buddha is the expounder of the dharmas. Some traditions regard Guru is even superior then the Buddha in term of benefiting other. However, Dharma is more beneficial to me then the Buddha.

Buddha did not say, “If one sees Buddha, one will know the Dharma”. Or I might be ill-informed. Instead, he said, “If one sees the Dharma, one will see the Buddha.” Such statement might have shown the primacy of the Dharma. Or other might have different opinion for the same statement.
3. When this was said, Maitreya Bodhisattva-mahasattva spoke thus to the Venerable Sariputra: [Reverend Sariputra,] regarding what was said by the Lord, the master of Dharma, the omniscient:  "He monks who sees conditioned arising, sees Dharma, and he who sees Dharma, sees the Buddha. "

Salistamba Sutra
People regard Buddha is a majestic person having 32 major and 80 miner marks sitting in the throne and so forth. That is fine from certain perspective. Seeing the physical form of Buddha, no one has attained the enlightenment. But hearing and contemplating the dharmas many have attained enlightenment. When Buddha was consoling a bedridden monk, he said that there was nothing special about seeing his physical form. Seeing or realizing Pratītyasamutpāda (dependent arising) would be equivalent to seeing the Buddha. Dharma is more important and beneficial.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 10:06 AM
Title: Re: MPNS on Women
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In this case, the Goddess of the Ganges has it right.

Seeker12 said:
I don’t understand this.

Malcolm wrote:
She transformed Shariputra into a women when he asked her why she had not taken birth as a man.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 10:04 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Hello,

I am receiving what my lama called a text empowerment or pe-wang (which is short for pecha wang i assume?) for a khandro nyingthig text by terdak lingpa.

I am looking for two things:

1. what does a text empowerment mean? Does it authorize one to practice? To study the text? What are the general “rules” about this kind of thing in the vajrayana? I have never gotten a text wang before.

2. Which texts has Terdak Lingpa written on the Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig? I’m trying to figure out which text i’m getting the empowerment for, and whether or not it is translated into english.

I’m turning to dharmawheel because i’ve tried to get these answers from my lama himself, but i fear our language barrier is complicating things and i don’t want to bother him with a bunch of questions while in the presence of such a precious empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
To read and study.

A text on the uncommon practices, one only AFAIK.

KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Thanks Malcolm. Is that uncommon ngondro practices?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as well as trekcho, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: Terdak Lingpa Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig???
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Hello,

I am receiving what my lama called a text empowerment or pe-wang (which is short for pecha wang i assume?) for a khandro nyingthig text by terdak lingpa.

I am looking for two things:

1. what does a text empowerment mean? Does it authorize one to practice? To study the text? What are the general “rules” about this kind of thing in the vajrayana? I have never gotten a text wang before.

2. Which texts has Terdak Lingpa written on the Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig? I’m trying to figure out which text i’m getting the empowerment for, and whether or not it is translated into english.

I’m turning to dharmawheel because i’ve tried to get these answers from my lama himself, but i fear our language barrier is complicating things and i don’t want to bother him with a bunch of questions while in the presence of such a precious empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
To read and study.

A text on the uncommon practices, one only AFAIK.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 6:57 AM
Title: Re: What's with all the crankholes
Content:
Minobu said:
You know hanging out in Buddhist Ville you would think compassion and nicest would abound.

But there are like quite a lot of angry people in here.

Malcolm wrote:
Spots on other people's noses always look bigger than the yak on one's own.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: MPNS on Women
Content:



Seeker12 said:
With all of that said, maybe it's just a misogynist addition, and there is no real meaning to it, and I'm just hypothesizing to try and see how it might fit. But I could, potentially, maybe consider a meaning such as this. More or less.

Malcolm wrote:
I doubt it is a sexist addition; it most certainly is a sexist sentiment.

As for tossing the whole sūtra out merely because it says some things that really must be taken with a grain of salt, no, that is not what I am implying.

Suppose the sūtra said, "Those who understand tathāgatagarbha are White, while those who do not understand tathāgatagarbha are Black. Now, if you are Black but you understand tathāgatagarbha, you are White; and if you are White and you do not understand tathāgatagarbha, you are Black."

Suppose the sūtra said, "Those who understand tathāgatagarbha are Eastern, while those who do not understand tathāgatagarbha are Western. Now, if you are Western but you understand tathāgatagarbha, you are Eastern; and if you are Eastern and you do not understand tathāgatagarbha, you are Western."

It is just a poorly thought out sentiment only possible in a patriarchal context where men are in a superior position (i.e. all of history).

In this case, the Goddess of the Ganges has it right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 3rd, 2021 at 1:26 AM
Title: Re: MPNS on Women
Content:
Seeker12 said:
The intent of this thread is not primarily to discuss provisional vs definitive sutras, and if possible I would suggest that we leave that topic alone. Even if we say that it is a provisional Sutra, that doesn't actually address the question, as provisional doesn't simply mean meaningless. So presumably even if a Sutra is provisional there is still a useful intent behind it. Which means, the question has not been answered in the slightest.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it was:

It is completely sexist. There is nothing useful, in this day and age, about gendering the appreciation of, or lack thereof, the tathāgatagarbha doctrine. The entire discussion in that passage devalues women.

The Vimalakirtī Sūtra throws shade on the idea that there are "marks" of gender which can be found.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 2nd, 2021 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: MPNS on Women
Content:


Seeker12 said:
Thanks for any honest thoughts on the topic.

Malcolm wrote:
One of the reasons the MPNS is considered a provisional text...

It is completely sexist.

Seeker12 said:
Longchenpa and others don't consider it provisional.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, it should be considered provisional even by Longchenpa since it contains the doctrine of the icchantika. It is also considered provisional because it uses intentional language to discuss a self, permanence, and so on.

What Longchenpa holds to be definitive is the doctrine of tathāgatagarbha, but there are some problems if we take the whole of those ten sūtras to be "definitive."

Then of course, there is the issue of whether the tathāgatagarbha doctrine is actually definitive. Arguably, the Uttaratantra itself holds the tathāgatagarbha doctrine to be provisional.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 2nd, 2021 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
I get that.

Malcolm wrote:
The question was, "Which is primacy, Buddha or Dharma?"

A number of people responded with their opinions, including you and I.

If someone were to ask me that question, I would answer, "The Buddha." YMMV.

Crazywisdom said:
I was asked this question by an advanced Western philosophy student
Sure.  The problem I have with that is it's a religious answer, not a philosophical one.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, it is the answer I would give. In the West, people are no longer expected to embody the ideals they espouse. It is precisely because of this fact that I would give the answer I gave, and because it is a canonical answer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 2nd, 2021 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: MPNS on Women
Content:


Seeker12 said:
Thanks for any honest thoughts on the topic.

Malcolm wrote:
One of the reasons the MPNS is considered a provisional text...

It is completely sexist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 2nd, 2021 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
I get that.

Malcolm wrote:
The question was, "Which is primacy, Buddha or Dharma?"

A number of people responded with their opinions, including you and I.

If someone were to ask me that question, I would answer, "The Buddha." YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 2nd, 2021 at 7:34 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
Like a Buddha is not a buddha. The teachers always around are relying on Sutras.  These word plays are cute though.

Malcolm wrote:
And the Buddha promises in the Lotus Sūtra that he will continually manifest as our teachers, so still around after all these years.

Crazywisdom said:
So if one teaches sutras one is Shakyamuni's emanation. Ok. Still comes down to what's taught. Really it's a three sided Triple Gem. Without Buddha, no dharma, without dharma no Sangha, and without sangha no preservation and continuation of dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Any teachers of Dharma, not just sutras.

The Dharma and Sangha are relative refuges, according to the Uttaratantra. It’s very clearly stated there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 2nd, 2021 at 5:36 PM
Title: Re: Seeking feedback/review: Pure Land Buddhism from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective
Content:
Brunelleschi said:
Hi all,

So Bob Thurman and Andrew Holecek did a course a while back about Pure Land Buddhism in the Tibetan tradition, as well as the East Asian Traditin entitled " Death & the Art of Dying:The Pure Lands Introduction ".

Link: https://thusmenla.org/p/pure-lands-introduction-archive

Does anyone have any information regarding this course? Price = 108$ for recordings from three (3) days and some study material. Seems pretty steep. Thinking whether it's worth it or not.

Thanks in advance,
Brunelleschi

Malcolm wrote:
You are better off buying the Halkias book on Pure land practice in Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 2nd, 2021 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Aemilius said:
There is no objective reality that everyone will see, perceive and believe.

Malcolm wrote:
There is an empirical reality that sane people agree upon. Many people see two moons, but there is only one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 2nd, 2021 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Realising Emptiness as prerequisite for attaining Narokacho pureland?
Content:
WeiHan said:
Is realisation of Emptiness, a prerequisite for attaining Narokacho pureland?

Malcolm wrote:
Only in the sense that you must realize emptiness in the bardo at the time of death or in the bardo. But not necessarily in this life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 at 9:51 AM
Title: Re: Shinjin as the Third Noble Truth
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Or the Dharmakṣema translation is heavily interpolated by that translator with his own ideas, which Occam's razor dictates is the more likely case.

Zhen Li said:
If you would like to specifically address the quotation I provided in order to demonstrate interpolation, please go ahead,

Malcolm wrote:
It comes from the dubious part of the Dharmaksena translation,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 at 7:13 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
Minobu said:
but all Malcolm , all [Illnesses] have their origins in Karmic cause and effect.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they don't. But there is no point in arguing with you about it. Unlike you, I studied Tibetan Medicine for many years, and have a degree in it. Tibetan Medicine is based on Buddhist sūtras and Buddhist medical texts like the Aṣṭangahridayasamhita. I just don't have it in me to argue with laymen about the causes of Illness according to the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 at 6:17 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
If illness is the result of karma, then all medicine blocks karma.

Malcolm wrote:
Some illnesses are; some are not.

Minobu said:
so what is the cause malcolm, of an illness not due to Karma.

Malcolm wrote:
Three humors, vāta, pitta, and kapha. The cause of those are desire, hatred, and ignorance.

You can read about this in the Suvarnaprabhasa Sūtra, and other places. The latter sūtra has a chapter, chapter 16, devoted to discussing illnesses and their causes.

https://fpmt.org/wp-content/uploads/teachers/zopa/advice/pdf/sutragoldenlight0207lttr.pdf


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
If illness is the result of karma, then all medicine blocks karma.

Malcolm wrote:
Some illnesses are; some are not.

Hazel said:
Is that true of a certain set of illnesses or rather is it true of certain instances of any illness?

Malcolm wrote:
Both a certain set and certain instances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's causes of illness
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
If illness is the result of karma, then all medicine blocks karma.

Malcolm wrote:
Some illnesses are; some are not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Thank you all so much for your replies. This has been super helpful. Does anyone have any detailed info on the lineage of konchog chidu?

Malcolm wrote:
It was revealed by Rigzin Jatson Nyingpo, who lived in the 17th century. He declared that he was the actual re-emanation (yang sprul) of Guru Rinpoche, and based on this and other things, the Konchog Chidu was probably the most widely practiced cycle of Guru RInpoche practice until Jigme Lingpa's time. It is still the main practice of Dzogchen monastery. Moreover, it gained prominence at Kathok Monastery, whose lineage holders, from Rigzin Duddul Dorje on down, held it as their main practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Sapan and Dzogchen
Content:




Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
If you know Nyoshül Khenpo's dris lan, he answers a precise question I asked him about that, long ago. Basically, his assumption is that it is not the case that in Dzogchen you reach the two resultant Kāyas without the two accumulations, but that the kadak aspect contains the accumulations of wisdom primordially perfected, while the lhundrup aspect contains the accumulations of merit originally perfected. Hence, he says, you obtain the Dharmakāya as the fruit of the (self-disclosing of?) kadak side of Rigpa and the Rūpakāya thanks to the (self-disclosing of?) the lhundrup side of Rigpa.

Malcolm wrote:
His teacher, Khenpo Ngachung gives a similar account.

Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
Now Nyoshül Khenpo's answer works only if you decide to understand Rigpa as eternal in terms of "timeless", not of "pre-existing". It implies to get rid of all Shentong -style images of the jewel already there in its gangue or the sky already clear despite the clouds.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. RIgpa can't be preexisting, because if it were, then the three ma rig pas make no sense.

Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
By the way, in my opinion, Gorampa's interpretation of the connection between the Buddhas’ omniscience and its objects (in the lTa ba ngan sel ) is 100% Dzogchen-compatible...

Malcolm wrote:
The Sakyapa view of the result is indeed 100% percent compatible with Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Sapan and Dzogchen
Content:
Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
It is not certain that all of Sakya Paṇḍita's objections reach or even target Dzogchen.

The main passage where Sakya Paṇḍita talks about Dzogchen, to my knowledge, is in the Domsum Rabye and not in the Thupai Gongsal.

Malcolm wrote:
He mentions Dzogchen in passing as the apex of the Nyingma system in Thubgong, but offers no criticism of it in that text.

In Domsum, he merely distinguishes that in his opinion, Dzogchen is a ye shes, not a tshul.

Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
On the other hand, I think that in later comments on the Domsum Rabye, like that of Gorampa, the charge is heavier against Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so much against Dzogchen per se, as texts like Kun byed rgyal po, which Gorampa asserts Sapan was too polite to mention by name.

Yungdrung Gyalpo said:
rGya nag lugs kyi rdzogs chen, which I understand as meaning: "Chinese-style Dzogchen"

Malcolm wrote:
This is a reference to the one shoe left in Tibet by Hashang. And yes, it is an implication that Dzogchen was influenced by Hashang. IOW, "Chinese-style Dzogchen" refers to Kagyu Mahamudra of Shang, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 1st, 2021 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
For Vajrayana it's the dharmakaya guru Buddha. All in one. From a Mahayana standpoint since Buddha is not around anymore, the teachings are primary. But without a teacher you're not going to get the whole picture.  A Mahayanist teacher is not considered a Buddha, therefore the dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
From a Mahāyāna standpoint, the Buddha does not abide in nirvana, so the Buddha is "always around," as our teachers (cf. Lotus Sūtra). In general Mahāyāna, it is clearly stated that one should regard one's teacher as being like a buddha; the difference between it and secret mantra is that in secret mantra one is to regard one's teacher as a buddha, full stop.

Crazywisdom said:
Like a Buddha is not a buddha. The teachers always around are relying on Sutras.  These word plays are cute though.

Malcolm wrote:
And the Buddha promises in the Lotus Sūtra that he will continually manifest as our teachers, so still around after all these years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 31st, 2021 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Aemilius said:
I don't intend to be rude, but the discussion is like some one had heard that something called Buddhism possibly exists, but no one has read any sutras.
The canonical or half canonical literature of Ufo lore is vast unimaginably vast.

Malcolm wrote:
And they still don't present anything that remotely resembles a fact apart from grainy Airforce photos, etc.

I am quite certain there is life on other planets in the universe, even intelligent life.

But there is absolutely no empirical evidence that has been produced by anyone that we have been visited by intelligent beings from another solar system, etc.

And if there was such evidence, the first human instinct would be to destroy such beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 31st, 2021 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Consciousness is not momentary
Content:
WeiHan said:
When Buddha said that consciousness is momentary, it is actually an expedient saying and not ultimate because each moment if they really exist will need to be a stretch which is impossible as they can be split down further. Yet, past moment can never be "joined" to the next subsequent moment because if it does so, at the point that they join together, past moment will be the future moment which is absurd.

Malcolm wrote:
This would only be true if moments have parts. But moments do not have parts, so this objection is not applicable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 31st, 2021 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Shinjin as the Third Noble Truth
Content:


Zhen Li said:
The Buddhabhadra translation can be regarded in the same way as the exclusion clauses in the primal vow — these are skillful means to encourage those who might take the teachings too far and think that they can act licentiously because their buddhahood is assured. Beings must still regard good as good.

Malcolm wrote:
Or the Dharmakṣema translation is heavily interpolated by that translator with his own ideas, which Occam's razor dictates is the more likely case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 31st, 2021 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thus, what we are going for refuge in is the actual realization of a buddha, who has benefited themselves and is capable of benefitting us, and not some abstract doctrine we ourselves have not realized.

Astus said:
Being uncompounded, it cannot even be comprehended, unlike an abstract doctrine. Being effortless ("naturally perfected"), nobody has anything to do with it, unlike with a teaching. Being personally realised, one has to realise it for oneself and others cannot help, unlike with a teaching. The path that is demonstrated, that is the teaching, and it is through the path that afflictions are abandoned. So, taking refuge in the true buddha, the dharmakaya, means taking the ultimate truth (wisdom, dharma as reality) as shown in the teaching demonstrating reality (compassion, dharma as doctrine) and applying it, since there is actually nothing else to take refuge in.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dharma Gem arises from the Buddha Gem; at least according to Maitreyanātha. So again, it is the Buddha who is primary, because without the Buddha, there can be no Dharma, since the latter arises from the former, that is to say, the second set of qualities which benefit others arose from the first set of qualities which benefit oneself. But you can parse this however you like. I am just reporting what Maitreyanatha and Asanga write in the Uttaratantra and its commentary in response to a question. I am not that interested in dancing on books with you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 31st, 2021 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
For Vajrayana it's the dharmakaya guru Buddha. All in one. From a Mahayana standpoint since Buddha is not around anymore, the teachings are primary. But without a teacher you're not going to get the whole picture.  A Mahayanist teacher is not considered a Buddha, therefore the dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
From a Mahāyāna standpoint, the Buddha does not abide in nirvana, so the Buddha is "always around," as our teachers (cf. Lotus Sūtra). In general Mahāyāna, it is clearly stated that one should regard one's teacher as being like a buddha; the difference between it and secret mantra is that in secret mantra one is to regard one's teacher as a buddha, full stop.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 31st, 2021 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:


Astus said:
The Buddha is called the ultimate refuge for its permanence, thus actually meaning the dharma kaya.

Malcolm wrote:
The Uttaratantra states:

Buddha alone is a refuge 
because the Muni possesses the dharmakāya.

We agree that dharmakāya is termed permanent in this case. We also have to ask, what is buddhahood? The UT states six qualities:

Buddhahood that possesses two benefits
is uncompounded, naturally perfected,
is not realized through external conditions,
and possesses wisdom, love, and power.

It then continues:

[Buddhahood] is uncompounded because its primal nature 
is free from beginning, middle, and end.
Because [it] possesses the dharmakāya of pacification,
it is called "naturally perfected."
Because [buddhahood] is not realized through external conditions
it is personally realized.
As such, because those three aspects are realized, 
[buddhahood] is wisdom; 
because the path is demonstrated, the mind [of buddhahood] is loving,
and its power is abandoning all suffering and affliction
through gnosis and compassion.

Thus, what we are going for refuge in is the actual realization of a buddha, who has benefited themselves and is capable of benefitting us, and not some abstract doctrine we ourselves have not realized. Unlike the Dharma and the Sangha, it is uncompounded and permanent. Which is why the UT states unambiguously:

Because of being abandoned, because of being deceptive, 
because of nonexistence, and because of being fearful,
the two kinds of Dharma and the noble assembly
are not the supreme, permanent refuge.

Astus said:
In a similar fashion is Dharma itself described in the Pali Canon, that it is true and present regardless of a buddha arising or not arising

Malcolm wrote:
That, however, is not the dharmakāya as defined here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 31st, 2021 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Shinjin as the Third Noble Truth
Content:
Zhen Li said:
The main influence for most people who use the sutra in East Asia has been the Dharmakṣema version...

Malcolm wrote:
For your interest:

https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/jiabs/article/view/8619/2526, see pg.57, Problem of the Icchantika...

https://web.archive.org/web/20130614174936/http://www.shabkar.org/download/pdf/On_the_Eschatology_of_the_Mahaparinirvana_Sutra_and_Related_Matters.pdf


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 30th, 2021 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
Astus said:
Even the Buddha revered the Dharma as his teacher (SN 6.2). The Uttaratantra Shastra (3.21) calls the Buddha the ultimate refuge, it also practically combines all three into one, as Dzongsar JK Rinpoche commented: 'But ultimately, Buddha is not other than the Dharma and the Sangha, because the ultimate Dharma is the absence of attachment. And that’s what Buddha has achieved. And since Buddha is the result of end point of all the bhumis, the Buddha is also the essence, the quintessence of the Sangha.'

Malcolm wrote:
One, your reference to SN 6.2 is far too narrow, since in the Pali canon the Buddha has also declared in various places he had no teacher at all, and that he had teachers in past lives.

Second, no, the UT really doesn’t “practically combine all three refuges into one.” It points out that the Dharma and the Sangha are compounded and impermanent. This is the context in which Maitreya declares the Buddha to be the true refuge, Dzongsar’s apologetics notwithstanding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 30th, 2021 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: "Which has primacy, Buddha or Dharma"?
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
I was asked this question by an advanced Western philosophy student.

Malcolm wrote:
Short answer: the Buddha, because the Buddha possesses the dharmakaya, cf. the Ratnagotravibhanga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 30th, 2021 at 7:34 PM
Title: Re: HH Sakya Trichen White Tara Initiation
Content:
WeiHan said:
Was this the wish fulfulling wheel White Tara taught in Khenpo Karthar's book?

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t have that book, so I can’t say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 30th, 2021 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: The Threefold Lotus Sutra: A Modern Translation for Contemporary Readers
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
Malcolm are you sure you're not confusing this with the 1989 Bunno Kato and Yoshiro Tamura translation which is also called "The Threefold Lotus Sutra"?

The blurb indicates that this is a new translation, if you are correct, then Kosei's marketing is being very deceptive in saying that "Now Kosei Publishing, responding to the needs of a truly globalized, twenty-first century Buddhism, has revitalized this acclaimed work with a newly translated publication, The Threefold Lotus Sutra: A Modern Translation for Contemporary Readers. This is the first English version of this religious classic tailored to the essential Buddhist practice of daily sutra recitation."

Have you seen an actual copy of this?

Regarding the one over at 84000, I don't doubt its good, but I'd like a physical copy, and if its made for recitation, that would be pretty cool. Also, since the Chinese version has been the most influential one historically (Tibetans hardly read the sutras anyways), I'd prefer a translation of that version.

Malcolm wrote:
My error, this is a revision of the original translation they published in 1975.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 30th, 2021 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: The Threefold Lotus Sutra: A Modern Translation for Contemporary Readers
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
This is a new translation by Michio Shinozaki (Author, Preface), Brook A. Ziporyn (Author, Introduction), David C. Earhart

Malcolm wrote:
It is not new at all. It is a reprint with a new introduction.

The best translation is the one over at 84000.co


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 30th, 2021 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:
Minobu said:
In the Lotus sutra Lord Sakyamuni Buddha describes this world with beautiful highways with ropes and trees producing jewels and all this wonderful stuff and Beings ..

this is thing i'm working on now...incorporating this in my mind to benefit the world...

It's the mandala ..the Pure Land of Eagle Peak Mandala...blanketing the world..

this could be what Nichiren is pointing to when He says see you in the Pure land of Eagle peak...not some far of place but right here and now...

wow...i'm pretty happy with myself...lol

Malcolm wrote:
I am pretty sure Vimalamkīrti beat Nichiren to the punch:

Thereupon, magically influenced by the Buddha, the venerable Śāriputra
had this thought: “If the buddhafield is pure only to the extent that the mind
of the bodhisattva is pure, [F.180.b] then, when Śākyamuni Buddha was
engaged in the career of the bodhisattva, his mind must have been impure.
Otherwise, how could this buddhafield appear to be so impure?”

The Buddha, aware of venerable Śāriputra’s thoughts, said to him, “What
do you think, Śāriputra? Is it because the sun and moon are impure that
those blind from birth do not see them?”

Śāriputra replied, “No, Lord. It is not so. The fault lies with those blind
from birth, and not with the sun and moon.”

The Buddha declared, “In the same way, Śāriputra, the fact that some
living beings do not behold the splendid display of virtues of the
buddhafield of the Tathāgata is due to their own ignorance. It is not the fault
of the Tathāgata. Śāriputra, the buddhafield of the Tathāgata is pure, but you
do not see it.”

Then, the Brahmā Śikhin said to the venerable Śāriputra, “Reverend
Śāriputra, do not say that the buddhafield of the Tathāgata is impure.
Reverend Śāriputra, the buddhafield of the Tathāgata is pure. I see the
splendid expanse of the buddhafield of the Lord Śākyamuni as equal to the
splendor of, for example, the abodes of the highest deities.”

Then the venerable Śāriputra said to the Brahmā Śikhin, “As for me, O
Brahmā, I see this great earth, with its highs and lows, its thorns, its
precipices, its peaks, and its abysses, as if it were entirely filled with ordure.”
Brahmā Śikhin replied, “The fact that you see such a buddhafield as this as
if it were so impure, reverend Śāriputra, is a sure sign that there are highs
and lows in your mind and that your positive thought in regard to the
buddha-gnosis is not pure either. Reverend Śāriputra, those whose minds
are impartial toward all living beings and whose positive thoughts toward
the buddha-gnosis are pure see this buddhafield as perfectly pure.” [F.181.a]

Thereupon the Lord touched the ground of this billion-world galactic
universe with his big toe, and suddenly it was transformed into a huge mass
of precious jewels, a magnificent array of many hundreds of thousands of
clusters of precious gems, until it resembled the universe of the Tathāgata
Ratnavyūha, called Ananta guṇa ratna vyūha. Everyone in the entire assembly
was filled with wonder, each perceiving himself seated on a throne of
jeweled lotuses.

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh176.html, 1.46-1.50

Just sayin...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 30th, 2021 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:


Lucas Oliveira said:
are Official Evidence

Malcolm wrote:
No, it isn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 30th, 2021 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
I would place this in the downright lie category. It is easy to testify about something for which there is no evidence.

Lucas Oliveira said:
They are all high-ranking military men, people with important positions in the government.

Malcolm wrote:
Donald Trump was the president of the United States. 30k lies plus in four years. So, sorry, but being in a government service does not equate with being honest.

But you can believe whatever crazy shit you like.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 29th, 2021 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Reading suggestions to learn about Soto
Content:
Nicholas2727 said:
Soto zen is one of the traditions I know the least about. While I don't practice in this tradition I am curious to learn more about it. From the little bit of research I have done on Soto zen, it seems there are some mixed views on it. Some seems like watered down Buddhism, while other people seem very educated and incorporate all of Zen practice. While I know the difference between Rinzai and Soto is supposedly just the method, when reading posts on this website there seems to be some difference in view and overall practice. Does anyone have any reading suggestions that go into detail about the Soto tradition, it's views, practices, etc?


Malcolm wrote:
Where to begin? There is a lot of material available to study.

Just go to Amazon and search on Soto.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 29th, 2021 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Danny said:
The problem with this subject is 99% of it gets mixed up with quackery.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with this subject is that absolutely no one who claims to know anything beyond "I saw something I can't explain" knows anything, its all conjecture, speculation, and downright lies.

Danny said:
My Favourite clip from the UFO Disclosure Project


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmNzkxVwAYg&list=PLnrEt2fIdZ0aBgPuVF0C_T559YR20eDTc

Malcolm wrote:
I would place this in the downright lie category. It is easy to testify about something for which there is no evidence.

Dark Side of the Moon:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 29th, 2021 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Danny said:
The problem with this subject is 99% of it gets mixed up with quackery.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with this subject is that absolutely no one who claims to know anything beyond "I saw something I can't explain" knows anything, its all conjecture, speculation, and downright lies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 29th, 2021 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
Aemilius said:
There is even a case when a humanoid was taken to Pentagon. He stayed there about two years. During this time he met with and discussed with several persons. And naturally nothing of this could be made public, this just is the nature of the human condition.

PeterC said:
You know this how?  What security clearance do you hold?

Malcolm wrote:
Come on Peter, do your research. The truth is out there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 29th, 2021 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: My biggest Mahayana question
Content:
Inedible said:
The one biggest thing I have never understood about the Mahayana is that it seems to require giving to others before having. Not just Enlightenment itself, but also the things which bring temporary happiness. As a practical matter, I have found that when I try to share my interests in meditation and lucid dreaming and mindfulness with others that they quickly realize I'm not getting the results for myself. They always end up deciding they don't have time for such things. And materially speaking I'm a complete failure. I'm lucky to have any money five days after payday. But being in the Mahayana seems to be about helping others to reach the other shore and the first of the Paramitas is Dana. As a practical matter how do you give what you don't have? People do tend to notice, and they don't tend to be very receptive to it.

Malcolm wrote:
Shantideva states that bodhisattvas first duty is to preserve themselves, so that they may help others.

It is also important to understand it is the wish to of help to others that is most important. The Buddha was incapable of relieving the poverty of all beings, but nevertheless he perfected generosity anyway.Why? Because he wished all sentient beings to have whatever is was they needed and wanted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 28th, 2021 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Is the Heart Sutra Nihilism?
Content:
Ardha said:
I read about it briefly in the Lion's Roar magazine and it just looks like a bunch of "no's" and starting with how our view is inverted and nothing exists. I was failing to see how such a thing could be helpful.

Malcolm wrote:
That's not what the Heart Sūtra says.

It says: The material skandha is empty; emptiness is the material skandha; there is no material skandha other than emptiness, there is no emptiness other than than the material skandha. The same applies to the aggregates of sensation, perception, formations, and consciousness."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 28th, 2021 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Parallels between Japanese and Tibetan Buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna was continuously transmitted to Tibet from the mid-8th until the 16th century. And yes, the first Vajrayāna teachings in Tibet were mainly Early Indian, i.e. 7th-early 8th century tantras.

Queequeg said:
I recall you commented that some of the major tantras (called sutra in Japan) in Japan were also transmitted to Tibet and that one of the first Tibetan kings who adopted Buddhism practiced them. Do you recall that comment? What happened with those traditions in Tibet over time?

Malcolm wrote:
Both the Mahavairocanaabhisambodhi and the Vajrasikharatantra and Tattvasamgraha were translated during the 8th century. The initiation for those still exist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 28th, 2021 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Parallels between Japanese and Tibetan Buddhism?
Content:
Queequeg said:
This comment in another thread raised a question for me that I thought might be interesting to explore a bit:


That sounds about right. I look forward to reading that book.

Malcolm wrote:
In many respects it reads like a text book (which it is), and is not the most thrilling writing ever, but each chapter has an extensive bibliography, and authors take pain not to retread old material, but focus on the social dimension of Japanese Buddhist history, its not a book about the various schools as much as it is a book about how Japanese society and Buddhism evolved together from the beginnings of Buddhism's introduction by Korean merchants, and so on.

I will add, that one thing of interest to me is the parallel developments of Buddhism on opposite ends of Asia, in Tibet and Japan (While I was never interested in Chinese or Korean Buddhism per se, I was interested in Japanese Buddhism first, and then later, Tibetan Buddhism.)

Japan's economy and society was not notably disrupted by the Great Buddhist Purge of 845 in China, which threw all of mainland Asia into social and economic disarray. While Buddhism was present in Tibet in some form or another since roughly the 5th century CE, when a copy of the Karandavyhua was supposedly presented to King Lhato Thori(27th king of Tibet), and Tibetans were certainly aware of Buddhism since they regularly sacked Khotan (there is a whole sūtra about this), Buddhism did not begin to be formally established until the 7th century, during the reign of King Songtsan Gampo (?-649, he was reputed to have lived 82 years, but info is sketchy, his reign was from 629-649). So given the implied dates of his life span, he was a contemporary of Shotoku.

Interestingly enough, it is quite likely that this planted to the seed of the Avalokiteśvara Devotion in Tibet.

Queequeg said:
Buddhologists have dated various texts in the Buddhist canon based on when they appeared in places outside of the Indian sphere. For instance, the age of many Mahayana texts are estimated based on when they appeared in China. One could also glean some insight about the form of Buddhism in India at particular times based on the type of Buddhism that was transmitted to other places. For instance - the transmission of Vajrayana to China is  occurred in the 7th to 8th centuries, while the transmission to Tibet occurred from the 8th - 11th c. (?). The Vajrayana that was transmitted to China corresponds to early Indian Vajrayana, while Tibet receive those as well as later forms.

Malcolm had observed that the popularity of the Lotus Sutra in Japan seems due to its introduction from the start, and that the popularity of Avalokitesvara may be due to his early introduction in Tibet. Earlier in the discussion he had noted sort of similar dynamics of tension of popular and institutional Buddhisms in the two countries, but how this played out under different conditons.

I'm interested to explore these ideas a little more. Not sure how the discussion will go, but just putting these observations as an open invitation to comment.

I'm interested to see how the same ideas may have played out differently because of different social and political conditions. Also interested in parallel developments - things that played out similarly.

Sorry that might not be pointed enough to kick off the discussion. I'll maybe try again if this is just a dud.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna was continuously transmitted to Tibet from the mid-8th until the 16th century. And yes, the first Vajrayāna teachings in Tibet were mainly Early Indian, i.e. 7th-early 8th century tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 28th, 2021 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:


illarraza said:
"Having thus manifested the ten divine powers, Sakyamuni Buddha transmitted the five characters of Myo, Ho, Ren, Ge, and Kyo to the original disciples of the Buddha since the eternal past, who had sprung up from underground." Kanjin Honzon Sho, Nichiren Shu (NOPPA 1991) p 140; MW 176.

Malcolm wrote:
Really, in Chinese characters? Ancient or modern? In Kanji?

illarraza said:
Yes, The True Object of Worship is preserved in its original ancient Chinese, with Nichiren's seal and signature.

Malcolm wrote:
That really does not fly:

सद्धर्मपुण्डरीकसूत्र

There are 9 syllables in the original name of the sūtra, as it was spoken by the Buddha. The Buddha never taught this sūtra in Chinese, 7 if one removes the word sūtra (kyo).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:



Queequeg said:
Interesting. "A Cultural History of Japanese Buddhism"? I will check that out.

Malcolm wrote:
The authors point out that Buddhism in its early days was actually practiced more privately, and that the whole Shotoku Daishi legend is largely a tall tale.

Queequeg said:
That sounds about right. I look forward to reading that book.

Malcolm wrote:
In many respects it reads like a text book (which it is), and is not the most thrilling writing ever, but each chapter has an extensive bibliography, and authors take pain not to retread old material, but focus on the social dimension of Japanese Buddhist history, its not a book about the various schools as much as it is a book about how Japanese society and Buddhism evolved together from the beginnings of Buddhism's introduction by Korean merchants, and so on.

I will add, that one thing of interest to me is the parallel developments of Buddhism on opposite ends of Asia, in Tibet and Japan (While I was never interested in Chinese or Korean Buddhism per se, I was interested in Japanese Buddhism first, and then later, Tibetan Buddhism.)

Japan's economy and society was not notably disrupted by the Great Buddhist Purge of 845 in China, which threw all of mainland Asia into social and economic disarray. While Buddhism was present in Tibet in some form or another since roughly the 5th century CE, when a copy of the Karandavyhua was supposedly presented to King Lhato Thori(27th king of Tibet), and Tibetans were certainly aware of Buddhism since they regularly sacked Khotan (there is a whole sūtra about this), Buddhism did not begin to be formally established until the 7th century, during the reign of King Songtsan Gampo (?-649, he was reputed to have lived 82 years, but info is sketchy, his reign was from 629-649). So given the implied dates of his life span, he was a contemporary of Shotoku.

Interestingly enough, it is quite likely that this planted to the seed of the Avalokiteśvara Devotion in Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 7:56 PM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:



Queequeg said:
I think that sounds right. I'm not that familiar with Asuka and Nara period Buddhism. My impression is that Buddhism was a state and aristocratic concern.

Malcolm wrote:
This book I am reading seeks to revise this assessment, in light of many new archaeological findings in Japan, which suggests that Buddhism was a far more popular movement from its earliest presence in Japan, than was hither too believed.

Queequeg said:
Interesting. "A Cultural History of Japanese Buddhism"? I will check that out.

Malcolm wrote:
The authors point out that Buddhism in its early days was actually practiced more privately, and that the whole Shotoku Daishi legend is largely a tall tale.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is interesting, in that it suggests the LS was already at the center of a populist Buddhist movement in Japan quite early:

Queequeg said:
I think that sounds right. I'm not that familiar with Asuka and Nara period Buddhism. My impression is that Buddhism was a state and aristocratic concern.

Malcolm wrote:
This book I am reading seeks to revise this assessment, in light of many new archaeological findings in Japan, which suggests that Buddhism was a far more popular movement from its earliest presence in Japan, than was hither too believed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 6:45 PM
Title: Re: Garchen Rinpoche Yangzab Empowerment Soon
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
And yet they say: "From the Yangzab Terma Dzogchen Cycle of the Yangzab Konchok Chidu."

So, Yangzab or Konchok Chindu?

heart said:
The name in Tibetan "bka' rdzogs pa chen po yang zab dkon mchog spyi 'dus" as you can see the name includes Yangzab.

/magnus

treehuggingoctopus said:
Yes I know. It would be crystal clear if they just wrote "the Yangzab Konchok Chindu." But they also talk of "the Yangzab Terma Dzogchen Cycle," and in the Drikung context that would normally mean Rinchen Phutsok's Yangzab. Hence my confusion.

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps people who wrote flier do not know the difference.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 10:46 AM
Title: Re: How's America going?
Content:
tobes said:
2020 was truly an epic year for our American friends, who largely dominate the forum (demographically).

It was hard to watch from the outside - from bodies piling up in NYC to police killing black men in cold blood to the batsh*t crazy election and the storming of Capital Hill by white nationalists.

Of course, none of these threads are all suddenly resolved, but it looks from the outside like things have taken a massive turn for the better. Good vaccination rates, a sane leader etc.

How is it feeling on the ground, in your hood?

Malcolm wrote:
We all feel kind of like June Osborn.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:



Queequeg said:
I agree. There are some scholars who argue that Japanese culture, even to this day, is permeated by Esoteric ideas. I think they tend to come from Tendai or Shingon backgrounds. To everyone who has a sectarian agenda to keep Vajrayana out, this is of course not acceptable.

My understanding is that younger scholars are not as limited. Its changing. But many of those scholars have a hard time getting positions.

Malcolm wrote:
One thing of interest I learned the other day was the along with the Suvarnaprabhasa Sūtra (included in the tantra division in Tibetan Buddhism), the Lotus was among very first sūtras introduced to Japan, and was prominent in Japanese Buddhism right from the start.

It began to make sense to me then why there was such an amount of fuss over this sūtra in Japan.

Queequeg said:
Yes. I believe the Lotus, Golden Light (Suvarnaprabhasa), and the Benevolent Kings Sutras were the first Buddhist texts given to the Emperor by the King of Baekje (sp?), along with a statue of the Buddha and several monks and nuns. From there, it was promoted by the periodic recitation at the network of national temples that had been set up in all the provinces. Then later when the Tiantai lineage was brought back from China by Saicho, the Lotus was framed as a sutra for the protection of the nation anew, this time from Mt. Hiei which is located NE of Kyoto, to protect from evil spirits that were said to come from that direction.

Malcolm wrote:
This is interesting, in that it suggests the LS was already at the center of a populist Buddhist movement in Japan quite early:
Meanwhile, undoubtedly in part in connection with the patronage of the Tendai lineages by the Northern Fujiwara House, the Lotus Sūtra was the central object of veneration and more general ritual concern at court. The Lotus Sūtra was already prominently featured in the Sanbō’e, which included a discussion of the Eight Lotus Sūtra Lectures Assembly at Kumano. It is important here to emphasize that it mentioned the presence not only of lay aristocrats at the assembly but also of “monks” in “deer skin,” which suggests the presence of mountain ascetics (shugenja), who might be connected to the category of ambiguous religious practitioners called “holy ones” (hijiri), discussed in the next section. Indeed, faith in the Lotus Sūtra was clearly now not limited to the aristocracy since it had been disseminated to other groups in the populace. For example, the tales in the collection Honchō hokke genki (hereafter Hokke genki; Accounts of Lotus Sūtra Anomalies in Japan) (ca. 1041–1044) depict such anomalies from the standpoint of the so-called “Lotus [Sūtra] holy ones” (Hokke hijiri or jikyōja), which makes it clear that such faith spread across classes over the course of the mid Heian period onwards.6 Indeed, these figures deployed rhetoric of the Lotus Sūtra to legitimate their position within the evolving Buddhist communities of their day (Deal 1993: 267–268).
— A cultural history of Japanese Buddhism.

However it undermines the notion Nichiren was the initiator of such sentiments, or that Nichiren was a unique working class hero of the Lotus sutra struggling in an unprecedented confrontation with Buddhist elites.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 6:39 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:


Schrödinger’s Yidam said:
In everyday life you nevertheless have a self or an identity, which is defined by the society. This is necessary for your functioning and survival in the society.
However your identity is not your essence. Think of someone who has amnesia. They have no idea who they are. So if your identity is not intrinsic to your nature, what is—if anything?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing at all, other than luminosity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Mahayanasutralamkara.

By the 12th century, Esoteric Buddhism is baked into all schools in Japan, IMO.

Queequeg said:
I agree. There are some scholars who argue that Japanese culture, even to this day, is permeated by Esoteric ideas. I think they tend to come from Tendai or Shingon backgrounds. To everyone who has a sectarian agenda to keep Vajrayana out, this is of course not acceptable.

My understanding is that younger scholars are not as limited. Its changing. But many of those scholars have a hard time getting positions.

Malcolm wrote:
One thing of interest I learned the other day was the along with the Suvarnaprabhasa Sūtra (included in the tantra division in Tibetan Buddhism), the Lotus was among very first sūtras introduced to Japan, and was prominent in Japanese Buddhism right from the start.

It began to make sense to me then why there was such an amount of fuss over this sūtra in Japan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Even as pretas (hungry ghosts) are described as having tiny necks and other physical attributes,

Malcolm wrote:
There are many kinds if pretas, not only this pathetic kind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 27th, 2021 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:
Minobu said:
The point of Nichiren iShonin's Dharma is to utilize your Buddha Nature and nourish your higher worlds so you can  function as a Bodhisattva instead of a troll.

just saying.

Malcolm wrote:
I thought it was all included in ichinensanzen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:


Queequeg said:
And here comes my main criticism of Nichiren and his movement

Malcolm wrote:
Uh oh...get ready for for the fire and brimstone response QQ. We'll have some nice BBQ waiting for you when you arrive in Avici.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation
Content:


Tenpel said:
I will disengage here now in the forum. My former comment where I commented on barma rabjung ordination, celibacy etc, based on qualified sources, was not approved with the claim “harsh accusations without knowing much…” (I didn’t accuse anybody harshly but mocked about Malcom replying to my comment by invoking anonymous higher authority (Tibetan monks who believe HHK is not a monk) without using sound reasoning, quotes, scriptures or arguments.) I don’t want to waste time. I posted the essence of that comment on my blog for those interested.

Malcolm wrote:
We have OTD’s own statement on the matter, Tenphel. That’s sufficient.

It’s quite amazing that the you regularly seek to air the dirty laundry of the Buddhist world, but for some strange reason you consider certain parties above reproach, based on no citations, reasoning, or common sense when you are contradicted by their own words. The “intermediate ordination” is Tibetan fabrication, not found anywhere in Vinaya, as OTD himself admits in his statement of January, 2019.

In short, it’s clear OTD does not at this juncture consider himself anything more than an upasaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: More UFOs
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
If a truly existent self was derived from the experience

Malcolm wrote:
"Self" is just an abstraction, a universal. In Buddhism, only particulars are granted any amount of validity, and even that is contested.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation
Content:



PeterC said:
Thanks. Curious if they had a rationale for that.  I guess if you *didn't* believe that theory, then you would have to believe that there have been no valid ordinations for centuries now, because the presence of one monk with one unexpiated downfall in an ordination a thousand years ago would have invalidated all ordinations in which his successors ever participated.


Malcolm wrote:
Novice ordinations may be conducted by one fully ordained senior monk. Full ordination requires a preceptor, a so called secret master, etc., a full quorum of bhikshus.

PeterC said:
And one of that quorum having an unconfessed downfall or a deficiency in their own ordination - is that a fatal defect?

Malcolm wrote:
No, that’s the purpose of the quorum, in case someone has committed a defeat, the ordination is still valid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 7:03 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation
Content:
PeterC said:
I forget the mulasarvastivada requirement for validity of ordinations - how many fully ordained monks without unconfessed downfalls acting as preceptors, etc. - but am I right in thinking that OTD acted as preceptor in sramanera and bikshu ordinations after the ordination which he considered not valid?

Tenpel said:
There was a discussion with respect to Dagri Rinpoche about that. The Bhikkhunīs investigating the subject matter found out: if you as the vow taker fully believed in the preceptor being properly ordained and holding the vows, your ordination is valid. They had sources for this. I have to check my emails for the details. If HH Karmapa conferred ordination or participated in ordination rituals I don’t know the slightest.

PeterC said:
Thanks. Curious if they had a rationale for that.  I guess if you *didn't* believe that theory, then you would have to believe that there have been no valid ordinations for centuries now, because the presence of one monk with one unexpiated downfall in an ordination a thousand years ago would have invalidated all ordinations in which his successors ever participated.


Malcolm wrote:
Novice ordinations may be conducted by one fully ordained senior monk. Full ordination requires a preceptor, a so called secret master, etc., a full quorum of bhikshus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 11:10 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:



PadmaVonSamba said:
We all spend our entire lives living in a small, dark, calcium box perched on top of a fragile neck, “and yet, what did it do for you ?”
But nobody seems to take issue with that.

Likewise, many people will spend 3 years of their lives sitting in cars stopped in traffic. Nobody thinks that’s weird (well, some of us think it is!).

A Buddhist three-year retreat makes a lot of sense, actually.

Malcolm wrote:
Even so….most people can’t manage the transition…
For some. I don’t really recommend it, though.

PadmaVonSamba said:
...well, compared with spending 8,760 hours sitting in a stopped car on a freeway...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 11:05 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:
Minobu said:
Aslo you did the whole sit in a box thing for almost three years and what did it do for you...

Malcolm wrote:
Some of the best years of my life, it was nearly four, and no, I did not sit in a box. That is not really a thing in my tradition.

PadmaVonSamba said:
We all spend our entire lives living in a small, dark, calcium box perched on top of a fragile neck, “and yet, what did it do for you ?”
But nobody seems to take issue with that.

Likewise, many people will spend 3 years of their lives sitting in cars stopped in traffic. Nobody thinks that’s weird (well, some of us think it is!).

A Buddhist three-year retreat makes a lot of sense, actually.

Malcolm wrote:
For some. I don’t really recommend it, though.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:
Queequeg said:
that's just a objective fact that NY has the most and best culture.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, and it gave us Trump. Good going NY.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:


tkp67 said:
The one that lacks any exclusion to Shakyamuni's complete supreme enlightenment which details the nine distinct realms he understood from within that enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha is omniscient. That omniscience is detailed in many sūtras. What was he omniscient about? The nature of everything in the three realms and all paths of realization. Since this omniscience is discussed in many sūtras, by your definition, those too are definitive sūtras, for example, the Heart Sūtra.

The numeration is of no concern, whether it is all three realms and all paths, or the six realms and four types of realized persons, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:


tkp67 said:
And he saw all phenomena are uniformly empty , tranquil , without birth , without extinction which translates to equal or without distinction

Malcolm wrote:
Easy words to say.

tkp67 said:
this is why the four standards where taught
They are also defined as those bodhisattvas who follow the four standards: (1) to rely on the Law and not upon persons; (2) to r ely on the meaning of the teaching and not upon the words; (3) to r ely on wisdom and not upon discriminative thinking; and (4) to rely on sutras that are complete and final and not upon those that are not complete and final.



Malcolm wrote:
Generally, the order actually given in the sūtras is as follows, for example, in the Ugraparipṛcchā, Ratnarāśi, etc.: "Rely on the meaning, not on the syllables; rely on gnosis (jñāna), not on consciousness (vijñāna); rely on the dharma, not on the person; rely on sūtras of definitive meaning, not on sūtras of provisional meaning."

Then of course this leave open the question, "what is a definitive sūtra?" The Buddha defines this in many ways. For example, in the Bodhisattvapiṭaka he defines a definitive sūtra as one that explains the meaning comprehensively and that introduces the result. Repeating those criteria, the Aksayamati Sūtra expands the list by pointing out that provisional sūtras teach on self, persons, living beings, etc.; those sūtras that teach emptiness, signlessness, wishlessness, nonfabrication, nonorigination, nonproduction, absence of entities, selflessness, and so on are definitive. The Anavataptanāgarāja Sutra teachings us that sūtras which teach dependent origination are definitive sūtras, because that which arises in dependence is selfless, etc.

Thus, there are many definitive sūtras, not only one or two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: To use a timer or not to user a timer...
Content:
Hazel said:
I decided to just stop tracking anything or using a timer.

Malcolm wrote:
Good. Timers are useless. Unless you are one of those people who plans to advertise your number "flight" hours as an inducement to get people to study with you.


https://www.pathofsincerity.com/top-six-benefits-ive-gotten-10000-hours-meditation-practice/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:



Queequeg said:
Yes. I recall. And Eijo got upset and hasn't been back since.

Malcolm wrote:
DW is a ghost town.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Debate over 'deathless door'
Content:
SilenceMonkey said:
You’re playing Chan master with strangers, people who don’t even practice in your tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
He does not even practice in his own tradition. Its all blah blah blah.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:


illarraza said:
"Having thus manifested the ten divine powers, Sakyamuni Buddha transmitted the five characters of Myo, Ho, Ren, Ge, and Kyo to the original disciples of the Buddha since the eternal past, who had sprung up from underground." Kanjin Honzon Sho, Nichiren Shu (NOPPA 1991) p 140; MW 176.

Malcolm wrote:
Really, in Chinese characters? Ancient or modern? In Kanji?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Where has Gregor gone?
Content:
Shotenzenjin said:
He hasn't posted for a while I enjoyed his posts what ever happened to him?

Malcolm wrote:
He rainbowed out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:


illarraza said:
*This does not apply at this time because there is no unity in the Sangha and therefore, there is no unity to break.

Malcolm wrote:
Sanghabheda, causing a schism in the Sangha can still occur. But only a bhikṣu can commit this downfall. See Abhidharmakoṣa, 4.100.

illarraza said:
“Now in the two thousand years of the True and Counterfeit [Dharmas] when they kept and relied upon the Lesser Vehicle and Provisional Great Vehicle, and practices putting one’s merit [effort] into them, in general there was benefit.

Malcolm wrote:
These five hundred year periods only apply to Sūtrayāna. They don't apply to Vajrayāna at all. But, this is your forum, you can believe whatever story makes you the most happy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:
Minobu said:
Aslo you did the whole sit in a box thing for almost three years and what did it do for you...

Malcolm wrote:
Some of the best years of my life, it was nearly four, and no, I did not sit in a box. That is not really a thing in my tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation
Content:
Hazel said:
A reminder that discussion of the recent scandal is currently locked to avoid speculation while details develop. I encourage people to remain on the topic of Karmapa's occupation and monastic status.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, the two issues appear related, but correlation is not causation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation
Content:
Thubten Wangmo said:
Yes, Malcolm, I had noted the tie up of the dates with the alleged interactions mentioned in that case.

The sense of 'searching for blame' in the confusion somewhere in his early experiences, the statement that he would 'like to start from the beginning again'; to have perfect vows before death; in that context it makes this talk seem like hidden messages he can't state outright.

If we conclude that he no longer has vows, and is 'starting again' and that he also took getsul vows with HHDL, as Tenzin says, then what is in between is breaking them.

Malcolm wrote:
Śramaneras also can commit defeats, which bars them from reordaining as a novice.

Ergo, better to be an upāsaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation
Content:
Thubten Wangmo said:
I am thinking that renunciation and intention are analysed here, but what is embedded in the Karmapa's statement is the factor of doubt.
How does doubt affect vows, Tenzin? If you doubt about your ability to practise as a monk are you no longer a monk? Has the Karmapa been doing Sojong, etc? What constitutes actively holding vows?

And Malcolm, to which school do your 'Bhikshus' belong and with what reasoning do they say the Karmapa is 'not a monk or a novice monk'? This does leave the last category of 'intermediate' ordination.

Malcolm wrote:
Mulasarvastivadin (The rules of Vinaya are the same in ALL Tibetan schools) and is based on OTD's statement in Tibetan, not English.

"Bar ma rab 'byung" (*madhyapravrajita) is a Tibetan invention, common in all Tibetan monastic institutes, but still a Tibetan idea. You will not find that term in Vinaya itself.

There are only eight kinds of pratimokṣa vows: upāsaka, upavasa, śramanera, bhikṣu + their equivalents for women. The śikṣamāṇā probationary period for women is not really considered a separate vow. Also, there is no celibate upāsaka vow in Mulasarvastivada.

It should be noted that he made this announcement in January 2019, the month he allegedly ended contact with Vikki Hui Xin Han, which lead to her lawsuit filed in June 2019.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:


Minobu said:
He took what was there and mashed it all together in order for it to actually be a viable practice for the people of Mappo.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, the tantras tell a different story about the best practice for "Mappo." YMMV. Whatever story you find most palatable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 26th, 2021 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: Hello From An Amateur Madhyamaka Scholar!
Content:
Astus said:
A course in Madhyamaka with Thomas Doctor has started this month: https://dharmasun.org/courses/middleway/

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, can't speak to the quality of the course, I am sure it is fine, but the message board is a nightmare of proliferation, abandon hope all ye...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:


Queequeg said:
But, that said, I think a big part of his message was to rebel against the exclusivity of Esoteric Buddhism in those days. I think this was the same for Honen and Shinran. He was looking to open the path for all people, not just those who had the capacity and opportunity to become monks.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, Vajrayāna tends to create brahmins where there are none, for example Tibetan "ngakpas," especially when it comes to the earlier tantras, like those that spread to China and thence to Japan.

One of the attractive features of Indian Vajrayāna is that it took rituals like homavidhi, burnt offerings, away from brahmins and recontextualized them for Buddhists. For example, Anandagarbha has a whole argument detailing why Buddhist homavidhi is superior to Brahmin homavidhi.

Queequeg said:
Interesting. I'm sure you know, Homa/Goma is one of the highest practices in Tendai and Shingon - usually related to Fudo Myoo (Acalanatha). It is a wonder to consider this practice originated thousands of years ago and then was passed on to Japan.

Malcolm wrote:
You can thank the Persians, they started it.


Queequeg said:
Is this the conflict between Nyingma and Sarma? With Nyingma being the popular tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
The 13th century marked the beginning of institutional consolidation. But there were a number of populist trends in Tibet at the time, and yes, they were largely merged into modern Nyingma— especially the rise of the cult of Padmasambhava and the treasure tradition and the emphasis on Avalokiteśvara as the national savior.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:


Queequeg said:
But, that said, I think a big part of his message was to rebel against the exclusivity of Esoteric Buddhism in those days. I think this was the same for Honen and Shinran. He was looking to open the path for all people, not just those who had the capacity and opportunity to become monks.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, Vajrayāna tends to create brahmins where there are none, for example Tibetan "ngakpas," especially when it comes to the earlier tantras, like those that spread to China and thence to Japan.

One of the attractive features of Indian Vajrayāna is that it took rituals like homavidhi, burnt offerings, away from brahmins and recontextualized them for Buddhists. For example, Anandagarbha has a whole argument detailing why Buddhist homavidhi is superior to Brahmin homavidhi.

However, Japan, unlike Tibet, was a highly organized society where central authorities were much more present in daily life. With Tibet, you had nomads, bandits, and people pretty much doing as they pleased in areas outside of immediate urban centers and great monastic institutions.

In this sort of Japanese environment, it is easy to see how Buddhism became stratified, and why, in the 13th century, populist forms of Buddhism arose. Actually, my read of Dogen, based on recent reading, was that he was engaged in an idiosyncratic pushback against the populism that exemplified Pure Land and Nichiren, as well as a reform movement aimed at introducing 13th century, Chinese style monastic Chan Buddhism into Japan.

In Tibet, exactly the opposite was happening—there was major institutional pushback against Buddhist populism, especially against the treasure tradition. Also, Mongols were invading... (Dogen also took credit for repelling the Mongols, BTW.)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
narhwal90 said:
BDK's edition generally agrees with Watson.    84000's edition reads differently;

Malcolm wrote:
Inaccurate is inaccurate.

In order to have an accurate translation, one would need to have Kumarajiva's original (since his recension has been subject to anonymous editing),   The Tibetan, which was made from an 8th century Sanskrit version, and a Nepalese copy, plus any readings found in the Sutrasammucaya, etc. Otherwise, what one ends up with is misunderstanding piled on mistranslations piled on misreadings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
narhwal90 said:
84000's edition reads differently;

Malcolm wrote:
It reads correctly.

Illarazza's idea that the Buddha specially blessed Kumarajiva's mind to produce a translation that is the real intent of the sūtra is like the idea of fundamentalist Christians that the translation group that produced the King James Bible was anointed by God to their task. In other words, complete hooey.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: How does mantra purify past negative karma?
Content:



Padmist said:
This one

Malcolm wrote:
One is called the "door mantra." The idea is that anyone who walks under it will have a lot of karma purified.

The second one is called the Six Spaces of Samantabhadra and comes from the 17 Dzogchen Tantras. It is the form of the six buddhas of the six realms in the form of syllables. Thus, seeing it creates a positive cause for meeting the path in this life or another.

Crazywisdom said:
That's the what and the when not the how.

Malcolm wrote:
From the point of view of seeing, it is the how. You look at it, that's enough.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice
Content:
narhwal90 said:
There appears to be variation in the acknowlegement of esoteric influence among Nichiren schools at least-  Igarashi (2012) documents some of the variety of ritual prayer developed and offered by N.Shu.  I get the impression these methods and concepts were adopted as current mikkyo technology, if you will, by the early Nichiren disciples.    Nichiren employed such a device himself when visiting his dying mother.

Queequeg said:
Nichiren and his immediate disciples were trained in Tendai. They probably took a lot of mikkyo for granted. And many later followers continued to study at Mt. Hiei.

Malcolm wrote:
As I understand things, it took quite some time for independent Nichiren institutions to manifest.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:



tkp67 said:
For your review


Malcolm wrote:
You still miss the point. All sentient beings have the same potential. That is not given to them by a Buddha. It’s connate, not fabricated. When the Buddha in the LS predicted all beings to full buddhahood, all beings were already in possession of the potential to becomes Buddhas. That’s what ekayana means. There is no special sauce.

tkp67 said:
I understand what you are saying succinctly. It does not read differently in my mind than yours.

Malcolm wrote:
The translation for that passage you are using as a proof text is incorrect. The Watson translation is deprecated, and full of inaccuracies. Therefore, your idea about this passage and its reading are simply incorrect.

It correctly reads:

"“Just as I saw and just as I thought,
And just as I resolved in the past,
My aspirations have been fulfilled
And I teach enlightenment and buddhahood."

As long as you guys keep relying on substandard scholarship, you will be subject to serious deviations in your understanding of the Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: How does mantra purify past negative karma?
Content:
Padmist said:
How does mantra purify past negative karma?

Malcolm wrote:
Which mantra?

Padmist said:
This one

Malcolm wrote:
One is called the "door mantra." The idea is that anyone who walks under it will have a lot of karma purified.

The second one is called the Six Spaces of Samantabhadra and comes from the 17 Dzogchen Tantras. It is the form of the six buddhas of the six realms in the form of syllables. Thus, seeing it creates a positive cause for meeting the path in this life or another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Losing faith in enlightenment
Content:


Mirror said:
Is there a possibility of being reborn into more persons than just one?

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. When one sees multiple tulkus of one person, its usually because different lineage heads of different monasteries recognize a tulku of that person. It is not an organized institution with the central clearing house of incarnations. It is pretty much a free for all, and competition among the backers of competing tulkus can be quite fierce and even descent into all out war, like in the present day Karmapa affair.

Emanations of high level bodhisattvas don't need to recognized and enthroned. The days of tulkus are numbered.

Crazywisdom said:
Bla bla bla. They have mind, body and speech emanations. The lineage is what matters not some interesting innovations from Massachusetts.  The teaching is that buddhas can emanate countless ways. If someone is an emanation of so and so depends if their actions resemble so and so. Malcolm mocks this but professes Buddha was a cartoon.  It's better to think in pragmatic terms.

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t take the human institution of Tibetan Tulkus very seriously, because it is 99.999% politics and money, that’s the pragmatic view of Tibetan Tulkus.

It amounts to blessing little kids like they do statues, hoping they will turn out ok. Some do; most, meh.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 8:59 PM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
tkp67 said:
No I said the buddha said as much.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha never said in any sutra or tantra anywhere that he makes sentient beings equal.

tkp67 said:
For your review
Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
equal to me, without any distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
I have converted all living beings
and caused them all to enter the buddha way.
If when I encounter living beings
I were in all cases to teach them the buddha way,
those without wisdom would become confused
and in their bewilderment would fail to accept my teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
You still miss the point. All sentient beings have the same potential. That is not given to them by a Buddha. It’s connate, not fabricated. When the Buddha in the LS predicted all beings to full buddhahood, all beings were already in possession of the potential to becomes Buddhas. That’s what ekayana means. There is no special sauce.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Hello From An Amateur Madhyamaka Scholar!
Content:
Subcontrary said:
I am very interested in the Madhyamaka school and I am here to seek clarity regarding many of its complicated doctrines!

Johnny Dangerous said:
I was taught by one my teachers to engage in Madhyamaka analysis in daily life. A lot of Tibetan teachers teach these at basic Dharma talks. That makes it much easier. It is not really complicated at all, as Malcolm says. It also means it has the exact opposite purpose of what people assume - that it is just supposed to be some scholarly teaching, with no practical value.

I do struggle to read Nagarjuna sometimes, but that's just my education level and conditioning, it is not hard to understand what he is talking about if you apply it.

Subcontrary said:
That's good advice! I do try to engage in Madhyamaka analysis in daily life, insofar as I understand it. I'm very happy to hear that it's not actually complicated; hopefully one day I'll experience what you mean!

I'm told that Nagarjuna founded Madhyamaka thought in his book Mūlamadhyamakakārikā, but I have not found any English translations! Do you know of any?

EDIT: NVM two seconds of googling yielded https://terebess.hu/english/Nagarjuna.pdf and https://www.aaari.info/notes/03-06-06Tam2.pdf

Malcolm wrote:
It’s best if you begin with Aryadevas 400 verses or Candrakirti Madhyamaka avatara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 8:18 PM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:



Queequeg said:
Yes. It doesn't make sense. That's why it seems to refer only to one aspect of the Buddhanature - the ability to perceive it, which is initiated when you hear the teaching for the first time.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s the difference between what is termed natural gotra and activated gotra. All sentient beings have the former, only those who have taken the bodhisattva vow have the latter. I suspect this Yogacara idea is behind the distinction being made here, notion one does not have Buddhanature until you hear the teachings. I suspect much is being lost in translation, and as far as I know there is very little serious work on Nichiren Buddhism by academic scholars outside of Japan.

Queequeg said:
That is interesting. I suspect the Yogacara influence comes in through Tiantai/Tendai, and so the direct connection may be obscured. Where can one find explanations on the natural and activated gotra?

And your observation about Nichiren Buddhism scholarship sounds right. I don't think anyone in the West has dug much deeper than to look at the subject from a historical perspective. The investigations of the teachings themselves have only been scratching the surface. I suspect there is a lot more vajrayana integrated into his teachings. The problem in the West is the investigation is not that deep. In Japan, the scholars tend to be sectarians who take Nichiren's criticisms of Shingon at face value and so can't bring themselves to consider that Vajrayana is at play. I brought up Lucia Dolce's study suggesting the influence of Vajrayana to some Japanese Nichiren scholars and they reacted very negatively. I was actually surprised at their response.

Malcolm wrote:
The Mahayanasutralamkara.

By the 12th century, Esoteric Buddhism is baked into all schools in Japan, IMO.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 7:58 PM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
Minobu said:
i just cannot believe Nichiren would teach that the Buddha nature is absent till you hear the ODaimoku.

Queequeg said:
Yes. It doesn't make sense. That's why it seems to refer only to one aspect of the Buddhanature - the ability to perceive it, which is initiated when you hear the teaching for the first time.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s the difference between what is termed natural gotra and activated gotra. All sentient beings have the former, only those who have taken the bodhisattva vow have the latter. I suspect this Yogacara idea is behind the distinction being made here, notion one does not have Buddhanature until you hear the teachings. I suspect much is being lost in translation, and as far as I know there is very little serious work on Nichiren Buddhism by academic scholars outside of Japan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 7:15 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It’s pretty clear to the Tibetan bhikshus I know that he is not a monk or a novice. Indeed, it was they who brought it to my attention.

Tenpel said:
I agree with the honesty - which is a hall mark of his qualities IMO.

However, I strongly feel, Malcom is reframing the whole issue and though he knows so much, he misses here the point - maybe because he is not really familiar with the Vinaya or didn’t receive commentaries on it.

First of all, renunciation is something to be developed and not there from the start for most people when they ordain. Though renunciation is the best motivation, it’s not the decisive principle of receiving the vows; or having received the vows (or not having received them). As I said, mundane motivations are also permissible say the commentaries - e.g. protection from fear or protection from hunger (when I remember the oral Vinaya commentaries I received correctly, it were these two.) It’s recommended at least before ordination to generate a type of artificial renunciation. But this is not the decisive principle. Nobody is expected to have, or to take ordination with a fully fledged renunciation. Not having pure renunciation when taking the vows or after having received the vows does not make them invalid. The vows are been produced by requesting them and receiving them, the proper ritual, and this has been the case here, he requested them and he received them, and it was a proper ritual. You can read details about the coming into existence of vows also in the Abhidharmas or Jangon Kongtrul’s Boom 5 on Ethics. For the ritual see also the 84.000 website.

Now, with respect to intention. Sorry, it’s a lame excuse to say he / I didn’t have the intention to receive the novice vows when going to the ordination ceremony. Why? With respect to intention there is “causal motivation” and “time motivation” - according to the Abhidharma. So, if he didn’t have the causal motivation to take the novice vows when he went to the ordination ceremony, then he has had the time motivation when asking three times for the novice ordination during the ritual. Hence, he had the motivation at the time of receiving the vows. It is similar to having the causal motivation not wanting to kill the mosquito but finding it unbearable then when the mosquito is too much irritating, killing it. It’s the fully fledged act of killing. Or not wanting to give to beggars but being overwhelmed by the sufferings of a beggar, out of strong compassion or empathy giving him alms. It’s a fully fledged act of giving. Or not wanting to engage in sexual activities because you took the vow of celibacy but being overwhelmed by sexual desire, engaging in sexual activity through one of the three doors at the time of an opportunity. It’s the fully fledged act of having broken your vow of celibacy. You cannot escape this fact of having done the act by saying “but I didn’t have the intention to have sex.” You didn’t have the intention initially (causal motivation) but you had it at the time of the act (time motivation).

Moreover, it would be rather a matter to discuss this with your abbot than speculating freely but with many doubts about it, without having clarity - as it seems.

And then there is another problem here, not being a monk but collecting money or receiving alms as a monk. There is no statement whatsoever on the website or awareness in the public or any type of clear statement that he is not a monk anymore but there is a statement on his official website that he is ordained and received the getsul vows. Receiving alms as a monk without being it is extremely negative karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 10:15 AM
Title: Re: How does mantra purify past negative karma?
Content:
Padmist said:
How does mantra purify past negative karma?

Malcolm wrote:
Which mantra?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 9:42 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's Occupation
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just read the office statement. It’s clearly stated there, that he attended an ordination, but does not consider it binding.

Tenpel said:
The source says he received bama rabjung and novice vows from the Dalai Lama. So, he is a monk and has the vows of celibacy. He does not say he considers himself an upasaka / lay person after he received the novice vows from the Dalai Lama.

Malcolm wrote:
No, he considers the getsul ordination invalid. Read more closely.

Tenpel said:
As I said already, he does nowhere say he considers his ordination to be invalid, Malcom. Please prove your claim and don’t claim unverified things. This topic needs clarity and not ambiguity; or even distortions, leading away or blurring the facts. If you have any proof or evidence that the Karmapa said, he considers his ordination to be invalid, share it with the exact source and quote, otherwise stop to claim unsubstantiated things.

For the time being, to settle the topic hopefully, the official website itself states that the Karmapa received ordination as a getsul and it was especially auspicious to have received it by the Dalai Lama:

“On July 24, the 15th day of the 6th Tibetan month, His Holiness the Gyalwang Karmapa received his ordination as a novice monk (dge tshul pha) from His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who was assisted at the ceremony by His Eminence Gyaltsab Rinpoche. This joyous occasion was marked by three days of celebration at Gyuto Monastery. It is considered particularly auspicious that His Holiness was able to receive his Getsul vows from the Dalai Lama. After the Karmapa received his vows, His Holiness the Dalai Lama conferred novice and final ordination on some 800 monks from southern India.”

https://kagyuoffice.org/may-august-2002/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 9:40 AM
Title: Re: Bitcoin
Content:
DNS said:
Saw this, from finance news this morning:
Almost exactly 11 years ago, a hungry programmer traded 10K bitcoins for two Papa John's pizzas. Even with BTC's recent plunge, those would've been worth $350M+ today. We hope he got extra cheese.
At the time, each bitcoin was probably only pennies in value or less.

Malcolm wrote:
It was a phantom asset then, as it is now. The holdr people, IMO, are well advised to turn this bubble valuation into real assets and exit their positions while they still have one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 9:01 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
tkp67 said:
No I said the buddha said as much.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha never said in any sutra or tantra anywhere that he makes sentient beings equal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 8:38 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You keep saying the Buddha makes sentient beings equal. Buddhas don’t modify anything, let alone sentient beings. “Equal” and “unequal” never enter into,it.

tkp67 said:
So the supreme beings who see distinction without hierarchy are the delusional ones and the lowly beings enlightened to their nature?

The passage implies that these distinctions they see are in the mind of the lowly being not their own. Why? it is all delusion and ignorance which obfuscates the buddha nature and draws the mind to make distinctions.



Malcolm wrote:
This passage says nothing about the Buddha making all beings equal.


tkp67 said:
I had read this some time ago and found it relevant. It is Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche's statement on the LS.

As I see it the big difference is that Nichiren is ultimately pointing to each individuals mind as the "perfect tailor" since one's own mind is most intimate with one's own cause, capacity and conditions while stating they should be discarded so the person does not become attached such things in the process. Of course everyone's mileage will vary.



https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 8:27 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This passage says nothing about the Buddha making all beings equal.


tkp67 said:
I had read this some time ago and found it relevant. It is Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche's statement on the LS.

As I see it the big difference is that Nichiren is ultimately pointing to each individuals mind as the "perfect tailor" since one's own mind is most intimate with one's own cause, capacity and conditions while stating they should be discarded so the person does not become attached such things in the process. Of course everyone's mileage will vary.
Popularly known as the Lotus Sūtra, this is one of the most revered Mahāyāna sūtras in the history of Buddhism. Devotion to it as being superior to all other sūtras has, in China, Korea, and Japan, created traditions based solely upon this sūtra. The Japanese chant Namu myōhō renge kyō (南無妙法蓮華經 “Homage to the White Lotus of the Good Dharma Sūtra”) has become the primary practice of tens of thousands of so-called Buddhists around the world. The mere existence of this sūtra must have brought millions of people into the Dharma and done much to ensure devotion to Buddhism and patronage of it over millennia.
pf.­4

We should rejoice in this. But we should also be mindful that rigid attachment to the letter‍—rather than the spirit‍—of this sūtra has led to some misunderstanding and discord among Buddhists. And that is not a good thing. For example, the Lotus Sūtra has been wrongly invoked to justify gender bias, material grasping, and even self-immolation and militant proselytizing. So it is most important to read and study this profound sūtra with a proper understanding of its underlying meaning and spirit.
pf.­5

In the evolution of humankind, we have constantly strengthened our capacity to think and communicate in ways that not only convey information, but also create imagined worlds. It was this ability to forge common myths, imagined orders, and hierarchies that enabled us humans to cooperate in larger numbers than ever before, leading us to evolve from being hunter-gatherers to settling in small agrarian communities, and then in towns and cities. Over the centuries, we have come to believe more and more in the imagined realities of corporations, nations, and hierarchies.
pf.­6

We Buddhists are not immune to these belief systems. For example, Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna Buddhists have evolved their own entrenched hierarchies that often look down on the Śrāvakayāna. Even the often-used term “Hīnayāna” can be used by Mahāyānists in a derogatory and chauvinist way to look down on the śrāvakas. This is really very important to note here because the Lotus Sūtra has been misused time and time again by such chauvinists to justify and entrench their feeling of superiority.

But here in the Lotus Sūtra, the Buddha actually says:
pf.­7

“I teach many dharmas in the world
So that here and there I bring liberation from attachment.
I give the teaching of the three yānas,
Which is my supreme skill in methods.” (2.­25)

pf.­8

If one is a supreme being, if one has mastered the dexterity of skillful means to address the variety of people in the world, one is able to skillfully teach different methods or “yānas” to suit the characteristics and affinities of people who are naturally inclined to different proclivities. The Buddha continues, saying:
pf.­9

“Apart from the skillful methods of supreme beings
Who give the teaching of separate yānas,
There is only one yāna; there is no second,
And there is never in the world a third.” (2.­81)

pf.­10

This, to me, suggests that, apart from the supreme beings who have the capacity to differentiate yānas without categorizing them into hierarchies, for each of us more lowly beings there is only the yāna we are taught and that we should be practicing. This emphasizes the importance of the role of the teacher who gives us the practices suited to our own situation. It is merely our own egos and minds that search for reference points, make judgments, and habitually create these hierarchies. So, it may help to remember that no matter what we understand in this sūtra, the Buddha says:
pf.­11

“A lord of the world appears in the world
In order to teach the wisdom of buddhahood.
That is his one activity, there is no second:
The buddhas do not guide beings with a lesser yāna.” (2.­82)

pf.­12

We must always remember that a tathāgata “appears in this world for that one deed and one action, for that one great deed and great action, and with that intention.” A tathāgatha does not discriminate between beings, nor judge the yānas that are taught to them or by them. Remember, the Buddha is also known as the Tathāgata, and also has many more names, including Arhat, the Tibetan of which literally translates as a “foe-destroyer.” But in his case, foes were not people. They were his emotions and his habit of clinging to his ego, which he overcame. Throughout his previous one thousand lifetimes as a bodhisattva, the only things the Tathāgata ever destroyed were his emotions and his ego; he never once harmed a single being.
pf.­13

And so, when we talk about the motivation of tathāgatas to appear in this world, we must remember that, like the Buddha, they have as their only intention and motivation the enlightenment of others. As a buddha, the Tathāgata possesses “supreme skill in methods” and teaches according to “the various aspirations, natures, and thoughts of beings.” In a way, we can say that the Dharma teachings one receives are like bespoke suiting: a tall, lanky man and a round, jolly one could be wearing the same suit, made of the same cloth, and the same thread, but with the skill of an experienced tailor, they are fitted‍—bespoke‍—for the individual. From afar, passers-by would say these two men are wearing the same suit, because the end result is that both are wrapped in the same cloth and both look good in it, but the methods used, the size of the patterns, and the particular cut might have been very different. Similarly, the ways in which the Dharma is taught are meant to be similarly bespoke. The Buddha says:
pf.­14

“I teach the Dharma by using a variety of teachings on accomplishment, and various teachings on causes, reasons, parables, supports, and skillful methods.” (2.­59)

The idea is that whatever method‍—or whichever yāna‍—is taught to a particular being, that method is the one that will most efficiently awaken that being. In that sense, this idea of a hierarchy is no longer as real as we think.
pf.­15

It is really this idea of skillful means that is so important in this sūtra, and that can help us to appreciate all yānas. The Tibetan for skillful methods is thabs (Skt. upāya). The word thabs brings with it the connotation of a “trick”‍—or even a “catalyst,” because skillful methods speed things up without affecting the elements involved.
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha did not seek to make all beings equal. Your answer, as usual, is a complete a total non-sequitur.

QQ already refuted you on this point.




tkp67 said:
Not according to the teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, according to the teachings.

tkp67 said:
You must never think that any of the eighty thousand sacred teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha’s lifetime or any of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the ten directions and three existences are outside yourself. Your practice of the Buddhist teachings will not relieve you of the sufferings of birth and death in the least unless you perceive the true nature of your life. If you seek enlightenment outside yourself, then your performing even ten thousand practices and ten thousand good deeds will be in vain. It is like the case of a poor man who spends night and day counting his neighbor’s wealth but gains not even half a coin. That is why the T’ien-t’ai school’s commentary states, “Unless p.4one perceives the nature of one’s life, one cannot eradicate one’s grave offenses.”2 This passage implies that, unless one perceives the nature of one’s life, one’s practice will become an endless, painful austerity.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/1

On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime

Outside of one's self also includes working outside of ones own causes, conditions and capacities.
“Shariputra, the buddhas preach the Law in accordance with what is appropriate, but the meaning is difficult to understand.
Expedient Means


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
tkp67 said:
If it did why would the buddha seek to make all beings equal if they weren't?

Malcolm wrote:
QQ already addressed your misreading of the LS on this point.

tkp67 said:
Not according to the teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, according to the teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Dune
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson. It's more cyberpunk than sci-fi, but I quite liked it. It's about Hero Protagonist, a nuclear pizza delivery man in a dystopian future city run by fast food conglomerates. There's a cool bit about Babylonian computers and the human mind being susceptible to computer viruses in it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, good, before Stephenson decided he was a real writer and started writing boring doorstops.

Caoimhghín said:
Did you not like the Baroque Cycle?

Malcolm wrote:
I found it really self-indulgent and turgid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time
Content:
tkp67 said:
If it did why would the buddha seek to make all beings equal if they weren't?

Malcolm wrote:
QQ already addressed your misreading of the LS on this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: Bitcoin
Content:


jake said:
Did you read or watch the link? Bitcoin is not an asset, it doesn't generate revenue. There are no yearly dividends, no interest payments, no rent collected.

Malcolm wrote:
And no backing by any government...essential for any viable currency.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Bitcoin
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
I think the major difference with gold is that gold has been used as a store of value for millennia--precisely that durability that Krugman talks about.  Cryptocurrencies, by contrast, have no such history.  I'm not predicting that cryptocurrencies are going to collapse or disappear, but I'm also not convinced that gold's survival necessarily means that cryptocurrencies will also survive.

Malcolm wrote:
The Bitcoin and crypto in general are the Great Tulip Bubble of early 21st century, but at least one can actually grow tulips. Bitcoin specifically is useless waste of valuable resources. The rest? Just a fad.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's (TTD & OTD) Occupation
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Although a footnote in one of Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen Rinpoche’s works, quoting, or rather paraphrasing seemingly, Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, says:


Dzogchen Practice of the Bön Tradition said:
”...in the Western lifestyle we have many free periods in which we can practice, so sometimes it may be even better than being a monk, because a monk has so many different duties and rituals to perform.”


Sādhaka said:
Yet there are also more distractions in the western lifestyle; therefore YMMV, as they say.

Malcolm wrote:
It is pretty impossible to be a monastic these days...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's Occupation
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Two different transmissions of bhikṣu ordination to Tibet. the Lower transmission refers to lineage brought to Tibet in the imperial period, which survived in mdo smad, i.e. Northeastern or Lower Do. Stod refers to the transmission that came through Śākyaśrībhadra during the 13th century.

mabw said:
Thank you. So the lower and upper refer to the differing time periods right? And both were Mulasarvastivada?

Malcolm wrote:
They refer to upper and lower Tibet, and yes, both areMulasarvastivad


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Dune
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
Thoughts on Asimov?

I was blown away by him when I first read him. I tore through the whole 15 book shebang, and while the literary quality was certainly not always top notch, and it got a bit weird towards the end, I was fascinated by the whole thing. Every work exploring different speculative themes on humanity and civilisation, starting from what is conceivably not so far into the future, to almost 50,000 years from now.

I've always been curious to give it a re-read and see if it holds up to my memories, not sure I'll ever get through all 15 again though.

Malcolm wrote:
Good ideas man, 6th grade level writing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Dune
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson. It's more cyberpunk than sci-fi, but I quite liked it. It's about Hero Protagonist, a nuclear pizza delivery man in a dystopian future city run by fast food conglomerates. There's a cool bit about Babylonian computers and the human mind being susceptible to computer viruses in it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, good, before Stephenson decided he was a real writer and started writing boring doorstops.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Bitcoin
Content:



jake said:
Also, as refresher, past discussion on NFTs here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=36024

Malcolm wrote:
Krugman on Crypto:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/20/opinion/cryptocurrency-bitcoin.html?searchResultPosition=1

jake said:
First, crypto boosters are very good at technobabble — using arcane terminology to convince themselves and others that they’re offering a revolutionary new technology, even though blockchain is actually pretty elderly by infotech standards and has yet to find any compelling uses.

Second, there’s a strong element of libertarian derp — assertions that fiat currencies, government-issued money without any tangible backing, will collapse any day now. True, Britain, whose currency was still standing last time I looked, went off the gold standard 90 years ago. But who’s counting?

Given all this, are cryptocurrencies headed for a crash sometime soon? Not necessarily. One fact that gives even crypto skeptics like me pause is the durability of gold as a highly valued asset. Gold, after all, suffers from pretty much the same problems as Bitcoin. People may think of it as money, but it lacks any attributes of a useful currency: You can’t actually use it to make transactions — try buying a new car with gold ingots — and its purchasing power has been extremely unstable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Dharma Lite, what it is and isn't
Content:


Sādhaka said:
In fact the texts say that it is better to practice for one’s next lifetime; not for worldly reasons, but for a better future lifetime for having more auspicious circumstances for continuing Dharma practice.

Of course we aim to end suffering for ourselves and others in this life too; however that is considered as secondary.


jimmi said:
In fact, this life is already “one’s next lifetime”. If not auspicious now, when?


Sādhaka said:
I wasn’t implying that it can’t be auspiciousness now. It certainly can.

What I’m talking about is one’s attitude.

Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen Rinpoche said that the one who practices to improve their next life alone, is the one of best capacity.

Most manuals on practicing the Path say this, even if not in the same exact words.

It obviously does not mean for having your next life be comfy, unlike what some ‘Hindus’—and even some Buddhists—aim for.

It means that you’ve renounced samsara.

Malcolm wrote:
Mañjuśrī, "If one has attachment to this life, one is not a Dharma practitioner."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 25th, 2021 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's Occupation
Content:


jmlee369 said:
... the Kagyupas hold the lineage of the Upper Vinaya transmission and Gelugpas follow the Lower Vinaya transmission...

mabw said:
Can someone elaborate on the Upper and Lower Vinaya transmission? Have never heard of it. Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Two different transmissions of bhikṣu ordination to Tibet. the Lower transmission refers to lineage brought to Tibet in the imperial period, which survived in mdo smad, i.e. Northeastern or Lower Do. Stod refers to the transmission that came through Śākyaśrībhadra during the 13th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: Dharma Lite, what it is and isn't
Content:
Matt J said:
That's certainly how I started: a stressed out, skeptical Western materialist. I'm glad there was a bridge for me.

Bristollad said:
Alex Berzin's take on this:

Dharma-Lite Versus the Real Thing Dharma
Dr. Alexander Berzin

Most Westerners approach Buddhism without belief in reincarnation or rebirth; however, traditional Buddhism assumes the existence of beginningless rebirth. “Dharma-Lite” is a way to practice Buddhism purely for improving this lifetime, without the concept of rebirth. When practiced as a steppingstone for “The Real Thing” Dharma (traditional Buddhism complete with the assertion of rebirth), Dharma-Lite is the stage best suited for most Westerners to begin with.

https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-buddhism/path-to-enlightenment/the-graded-path/dharma-lite-versus-the-real-thing-dharma

Malcolm wrote:
The difference here, is that Dharma-lite is not Baby Dharma. What Berzin Describes is Baby Dharma.

Dharma-lite has great taste and it also has no calories!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Dune
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The fact is that a lot of SF does not age well. Most of it is poorly written drivel.

But there are standouts, like Phillip K. Dick, who seems to be the richest single source for SF movies going.

Gibson, in my opinion, is a not a terribly good writer.

Le Guin is good, but uneven. Margret Atwood, of course, is a great writer.

If we actually confined ourselves to SF books of demonstrable literary merit, I think the recommendations would shrink really fast.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Dharma Lite, what it is and isn't
Content:


Bristollad said:
No, I didn't think so, but he does articulate quite clearly what he feels the difference is.

Malcolm wrote:
The prevailing sentiment appears to be that Dharma-lite, Buddhism-lite, etc., refers to a denatured presentation of the teachings which abandons karma and rebirth, the central problem all valid forms of Buddhism set out to address.

Tlalok said:
From my reading, Berzin uses "Dharma-lite" specifically to identify an interest only in securing happiness in this life, a sort of "remedial" stage in the Lam-rim teachings before you even really enter it meaningfully. It's a part of explaining Lam-rim to Western Dharma students according to a gradual path.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Berzin has his ideas, and I have mine. They are different. Dharma-lite is basically for people who bring their Dharma books into the bathroom and then leave them there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Dharma Lite, what it is and isn't
Content:
Bristollad said:
Alex Berzin's take on this:

Dharma-Lite Versus the Real Thing Dharma
Dr. Alexander Berzin

Most Westerners approach Buddhism without belief in reincarnation or rebirth; however, traditional Buddhism assumes the existence of beginningless rebirth. “Dharma-Lite” is a way to practice Buddhism purely for improving this lifetime, without the concept of rebirth. When practiced as a steppingstone for “The Real Thing” Dharma (traditional Buddhism complete with the assertion of rebirth), Dharma-Lite is the stage best suited for most Westerners to begin with.

https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-buddhism/path-to-enlightenment/the-graded-path/dharma-lite-versus-the-real-thing-dharma

Malcolm wrote:
He didn’t coin the term at all.

Bristollad said:
No, I didn't think so, but he does articulate quite clearly what he feels the difference is.

Malcolm wrote:
The prevailing sentiment appears to be that Dharma-lite, Buddhism-lite, etc., refers to a denatured presentation of the teachings which abandons karma and rebirth, the central problem all valid forms of Buddhism set out to address.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Debate over 'deathless door'
Content:
Supramundane said:
But isn't dwelling on pure awareness not enough in itself?

Malcolm wrote:
No it is not enough in itself. Lacking insight, it is just śamatha, and does not have the power to remove afflictive patterning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa's Occupation
Content:
Schrödinger’s Yidam said:
It’s a little convoluted, but very interesting.

Malcolm wrote:
The long and short of it is that OTD is not a monk.

Schrödinger’s Yidam said:
His own status is his business, but as a public figure I appreciate his letting us know.

However what’s interesting to me is his assertion that if he (and by extension, if anyone) wasn’t actively willing to take vows, the vows are not valid. That has significance beyond his personal status for us all.

Malcolm wrote:
That is correct. It is not his assertion. At the end of even a refuge ceremony, the person giving the vows asks the recipient "Are you happy?" If the person were to answer "no," or later feel they did not understand what they were participating in, those vows are invalid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Losing faith in enlightenment
Content:


Mirror said:
Is there a possibility of being reborn into more persons than just one?

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. When one sees multiple tulkus of one person, its usually because different lineage heads of different monasteries recognize a tulku of that person. It is not an organized institution with the central clearing house of incarnations. It is pretty much a free for all, and competition among the backers of competing tulkus can be quite fierce and even descent into all out war, like in the present day Karmapa affair.

Emanations of high level bodhisattvas don't need to recognized and enthroned. The days of tulkus are numbered.

dharmafootsteps said:
This is interesting, usually one hears this justified by it being possible for buddhas/high level bodhisattvas to have “multiple emanations”. Is this a misunderstanding?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s apologetics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa's Occupation
Content:
Schrödinger’s Yidam said:
It’s a little convoluted, but very interesting.

Malcolm wrote:
The long and short of it is that OTD is not a monk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa's Occupation
Content:
Tenpel said:
The source says he received bama rabjung and novice vows from the Dalai Lama. So, he is a monk and has the vows of celibacy. He does not say he considers himself an upasaka / lay person after he received the novice vows from the Dalai Lama.

Malcolm wrote:
No, he considers the getsul ordination invalid. Read more closely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: Dharma Lite, what it is and isn't
Content:
Bristollad said:
Alex Berzin's take on this:

Dharma-Lite Versus the Real Thing Dharma
Dr. Alexander Berzin

Most Westerners approach Buddhism without belief in reincarnation or rebirth; however, traditional Buddhism assumes the existence of beginningless rebirth. “Dharma-Lite” is a way to practice Buddhism purely for improving this lifetime, without the concept of rebirth. When practiced as a steppingstone for “The Real Thing” Dharma (traditional Buddhism complete with the assertion of rebirth), Dharma-Lite is the stage best suited for most Westerners to begin with.

https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-buddhism/path-to-enlightenment/the-graded-path/dharma-lite-versus-the-real-thing-dharma

Malcolm wrote:
He didn’t coin the term at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 8:30 AM
Title: Re: Dharma Lite, what it is and isn't
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
There are lots of examples of the Buddha simply giving people from all walks of life basic instructions for leading a particular way of life, without mentioning rebirth in different realms or becoming free of samsara. Yeah, it all eventually points to that. But if you are going to make a definition of something and give it a name such as ‘Dharma lite’ then you need to be clear about why that designation matters now, if it didn’t seem to matter 2600 years ago.

Malcolm wrote:
Commecialization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: Dune
Content:
Norwegian said:
Friend of mine suggests the following for sci-fi/space opera:

- Peter Hamilton's The Night's Dawn trilogy
- Alastair Reynold's Revelation Space series
- Alastair Reynold's House of Suns
- Alastair Reynold's Pushing Ice
- John Scalzi's Old Man's War
- Hannu Rajaniemi's The Quantum Thief trilogy
- Liu Cixin's Remembrance of Earth's Past trilogy
- Peter Watts' Blindsight

Malcolm wrote:
Kim Stanley Robinsons Mars Trilogy.
Walter Mosley


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Hello From An Amateur Madhyamaka Scholar!
Content:
Subcontrary said:
That is encouraging, Malcolm!

I should say more that I am often confounded by the doctrines of Madhyamaka. I'm even now writing a post regarding the Tattvasangraha of Santaraksita which perhaps will demonstrate my confusion!

Malcolm wrote:
Don’t start with that book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Dharma Lite, what it is and isn't
Content:
Matt J said:
Many traditional or semi-traditional teachers' public teachings in my experience could be called "dharma-lite" but they are often speaking on multiple levels.

KeithA said:
I find the whole “advanced versus lite” thing to be wholly laughable.

Malcolm wrote:
Dharma-lite isn’t even Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Hello From An Amateur Madhyamaka Scholar!
Content:
Subcontrary said:
I am very interested in the Madhyamaka school and I am here to seek clarity regarding many of its complicated doctrines!

Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka is not complicated. It exists to dismantle the complications of other systems, that's why it seems complex. But it isn't really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's Occupation
Content:
Matt J said:
What about the robes and shaved head? Fashion choices?

Malcolm wrote:
He attended an ordination, and later complained that he did not consider it valid since he was not asked if he wanted to receive full ordination. He considers himself an upāsaka. This was quite the buzz amongst Tibetans a couple of years ago.
Business suit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Anam Thubten
Content:
zerwe said:
I want to point out that there is no such thing as "Dharma-Lite."

Malcolm wrote:
Dharma-lite (tm) is definitely a thing. Anything which is focused on this life is Dharma-lite, why? Because it is the use of Buddhist teachings to make samsara more comfortable.

zerwe said:
Understood. From what I have been taught, anything we do without having the mind of renunciation is not really Dharma at all. Anything directed with this life in mind. However, for those who do not have realization--there is always something that can been done to aid in developing this mind. If somehow someone benefits from a teaching, now matter how it may perceived, and this eventually leads to developing a mind of renunciation then would we really call it "Dharma-lite?"

Shaun

Malcolm wrote:
This is too broad. For example, someone might read Dune's Zen Sufi aphorisms, and then become interested in Zen, etc. but really, this does not count.

Dharma-lite, Buddhism-lite, is "this life," "be happy," "self-affirmation," dross which we find in Barnes and Nobles, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's Occupation
Content:
Chaz said:
Is there something out there that mandates/requires that the Karmapa  be amonastic?  Could the Karmapa "hang up his robes"  and become a greeter at Wal-Mart?  Own a dairy farm?  Get married and have a family?  Let his hair and beard grow and live incognito in Luxor?

Would he still be Karmapa?

Malcolm wrote:
Niether of the present Karmapas are monks.

Arnoud said:
Really? I thought OTD definitely ordained some people and received Gelong vows.

Malcolm wrote:
He attended an ordination, and later complained that he did not consider it valid since he was not asked if he wanted to receive full ordination. He considers himself an upāsaka. This was quite the buzz amongst Tibetans a couple of years ago.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Dune
Content:
tkp67 said:
I enjoyed Zelazny almost as much as Heinlein.  They are contemporaries in regards to intellect, imagination and dialog.

Malcolm wrote:
I find it interesting that guys like Heinlein and Herbert were hardcore, right-wing republicans, the former tried to get Goldwater elected; the latter, a buddy of Nixon.

Both opposed any kind of social programs.

But then there is the marvelous Scottish science fiction of Ken Mcleod, one has to begin with the Fall Revolution.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa's Occupation
Content:
Chaz said:
Is there something out there that mandates/requires that the Karmapa  be amonastic?  Could the Karmapa "hang up his robes"  and become a greeter at Wal-Mart?  Own a dairy farm?  Get married and have a family?  Let his hair and beard grow and live incognito in Luxor?

Would he still be Karmapa?

Malcolm wrote:
Niether of the present Karmapas are monks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 24th, 2021 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: Anam Thubten
Content:
zerwe said:
I want to point out that there is no such thing as "Dharma-Lite."

Malcolm wrote:
Dharma-lite (tm) is definitely a thing. Anything which is focused on this life is Dharma-lite, why? Because it is the use of Buddhist teachings to make samsara more comfortable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 23rd, 2021 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Dune
Content:
Queequeg said:
Thanks folks for the suggestions.

Malcolm wrote:
Simon Green’s Deathstalker Series is pretty entertaining, low-brow space opera. Highly recommended for its sheer exuberant celebration of the decadent phase of the British empire cast in a science fiction tabloid fantasy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 22nd, 2021 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: Why did Nichiren Shonin leave TenDai
Content:


Minobu said:
also do Tendai chant the Amida Butsu thing?

Malcolm wrote:
There is pure land practice in Tendai. Jodo Shu and Jodo Shinshu both come from Tendai.

Minobu said:
Well I guess that's why he dropped that gig.
He knew.

Malcolm wrote:
You have a problem with pur land Buddhism?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 22nd, 2021 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Why did Nichiren Shonin leave TenDai
Content:


Minobu said:
also do Tendai chant the Amida Butsu thing?

Malcolm wrote:
There is pure land practice in Tendai. Jodo Shu and Jodo Shinshu both come from Tendai.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 22nd, 2021 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Dune
Content:
Matt J said:
I've never understood the whole Dune thing.

Malcolm wrote:
Its all about the Zen Sunni, dude.

http://www.neelu.net/explore/edge-science-gaia-exclusion-zone/dune-sayings-of-the-zenn-sunni-wanderers/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 21st, 2021 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: A conversation about Buddhism with a prototype AGI. (Artifical Intelligence)
Content:
Nemo said:
It's just a program made by a person to trick you. Anyone can make one. It has no idea what it's answers mean. It has no intelligence.


FiveSkandhas said:
The advanced AIs I have interacted with seem very gentle.

Nemo said:
Trolls turned Tay, Microsoft’s fun millennial AI bot, into a genocidal maniac.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/03/24/the-internet-turned-tay-microsofts-fun-millennial-ai-bot-into-a-genocidal-maniac/

Johnny Dangerous said:
I was actually just thinking that however this AI was trained in Buddhism, it reflects the idiosyncratic understanding of Buddhism of whatever it's (human) source material was. So for instance if it learns Buddhism from the internet, the longer it studies it via the internet, the more incoherent it would get.

This version clearly got a very "cliff notes" Dharma with a couple nods to Pal sources.

Malcolm wrote:
Imagine how confused it would get by Jaxchen?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 21st, 2021 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: IS enlightenment SUDDEN OR GRADUAL ?
Content:


SilenceMonkey said:
When you receive DI is this entering the path of seeing? It seems like in zen tradition kensho is something like this.



Malcolm wrote:
Direct introduction, or as it is more accurately translated, “directly encounter one's own state,” is a method where the teacher assists the student in recognizing a moment of unmodified, pellucid, consciousness through explanation, symbols, and resting together in the state the student is to encounter.

Using various methods, the student then engages in various practices to encounter their own state until they have decided upon it, decide one thing, or as CHNN puts, remain without doubt.

Then one continues in that state, or literally, continue in the confidence of liberation, meaning one is now a real dzogchen practitioner.

However, there are no stages in dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 21st, 2021 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?
Content:


Queequeg said:
What's interesting to me is that the mandala for this text is different in E. Asian and Tibet:

EDIT: MY MISTAKE... I DON"T KNOW OF ANY TIBETAN VERSION OF THIS MANDALA

Malcolm wrote:
The mandala is the same, the way it is laid out is slightly different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 21st, 2021 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Why there is no Mahavairocana Tantra in General Mahayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Tibetan Version:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 21st, 2021 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Content:



SilenceMonkey said:
I’m curious where the reference to mi chos and lha chos are coming from.

Malcolm wrote:
These two terms are quite common in Tibetan literature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 21st, 2021 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Losing faith in enlightenment
Content:


Mirror said:
But this topic is very difficult, because we can't really verify who is a reincarnation of whom and who is enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, this is beyond the ken of ordinary people; and so therefore, one has to examine the qualities of the teacher still, and not rely on names.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 21st, 2021 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: What is enlightenment that we need to obtain?
Content:
LastLegend said:
So we perceive enlightenment to be something to obtain? We are designating it to be something to be obtained? Then who is obtaining it?

Malcolm wrote:
In conventional discourse, there is a person who practices a path and wakes up. In ultimate discourse, there is no person, no path, and no waking up.

These are not in contradiction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 21st, 2021 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
There are really two common approaches dharma.

One is simply as a set of guidelines for daily living. These are what you find in the coffee-table books featuring the Dalai Lama, or books on mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hanh. No refuge is required to abstain from the negative behaviors that result in negative life experiences. Anybody who follows any religion can apply these Dharma teachings, just as one can apply the sayings of Confucius, the aphorisms of Ben Franklin, or the teachings on forgiveness by Jesus.

Malcolm wrote:
In the Tibetan tradition this is called "mi chos," which corresponds more or less to our idea of secular ethics.

PadmaVonSamba said:
The other approach to Dharma is really aimed at liberation from samsara, not just making it more manageable. There are specific concepts that must be understood and tested to the point that one can confidently accept them as valid. Here is where conflicts may arise between Buddhist teachings and those of other belief systems.

Malcolm wrote:
In our tradition, this called "lha chos," "highest teachings," which refers to the Dharma proper.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha
Content:
tkp67 said:
Some teachings seek to separate the two for the purpose of realization. Some make the story seem less than life itself but it is not truly separable.

Malcolm wrote:
The inseparability of samsara and nirvana is fundamental to all Mahāyāna traditions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Losing faith in enlightenment
Content:


Mirror said:
Is there a possibility of being reborn into more persons than just one?

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. When one sees multiple tulkus of one person, its usually because different lineage heads of different monasteries recognize a tulku of that person. It is not an organized institution with the central clearing house of incarnations. It is pretty much a free for all, and competition among the backers of competing tulkus can be quite fierce and even descent into all out war, like in the present day Karmapa affair.

Emanations of high level bodhisattvas don't need to recognized and enthroned. The days of tulkus are numbered.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: Losing faith in enlightenment
Content:
Mirror said:
What is the point of meditating, when our attainments disappear after death?

Malcolm wrote:
They don't.

Mirror said:
There are so many tibetan buddhist masters, who have been reincarnated for umpteenth time and although it's said that they have been enlightened in their previous lives, they weren't born enlightened and most of their previous attainments have been lost. Even so they have been learning and practising more swiftly and easily in their present lives, without being reborn in a place where dharma is accessible, their accomplishments are gone or lessened at least.

Malcolm wrote:
Not all tulkus are really reincarnations of awakened people. Most are just recognized for the purposes of maintaining lineages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Content:
Soma999 said:
If you understand Buddha as clarity, Dharma as universal laws, and sangha as universal consciousness, it is inclusive.

Malcolm wrote:
Which was said by the Buddha in no sutra or tantra anywhere, ever.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
Even though it may seem like a long time the fact remains Lord Sakyamuni Buddha revealed His Time when He first attained enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and the many Buddhas he studied under in the past in many sutras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 11:32 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa sued for marital and child support after sexual assault.
Content:
Cinnabar said:
What is most interesting to me is how we (impersonal we) deal with it all.

Malcolm wrote:
Honestly, this issue has no impact on me at all.

Outrage…


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 11:00 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa sued for marital and child support after sexual assault.
Content:
zerwe said:
Concerning, but take care.
The yahoo news run of this story concludes with "None of the allegations have been proven in court."
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/b-c-woman-claims-marriage-110000327.html?src=rss

Shaun

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. So far, apparently, the sole evidence is text messages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 9:39 AM
Title: Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
and there is no text that will confirm this

Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa sued for marital and child support after sexual assault.
Content:
Queequeg said:
Maybe this tulku thing is not such a great idea.

Malcolm wrote:
Been saying that for 20 years+


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
If this state was so perfect then how did we all end up in this nightmare ?

tkp67 said:
I would have to dig up the exact reference but iirc in the Brahma's Net Sutra there is a reference to brahma giving rise to creation in his own mind for companionship.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, that's not how it is framed by the Buddha:

10. 'There comes a time, Vasettha, when, sooner or later after a long period, this world contracts. At a time of contraction, beings are mostly born in the Abhassara Brahma world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious — and they stay like that for a very long time. But sooner or later, after a very long period, this world begins to expand again. At a time of expansion, the beings from the Abhassara Brahma world, [85] having passed away from there, are mostly reborn in this world. Here they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self- luminous, moving through the air, glorious--and they stay like that for a very long time.
11. 'At that period, Vasettha, there was just one mass of water, and all was darkness, blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared, no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not distinguished, nor months and fortnights, no years or seasons, and no male and female, beings being reckoned just as beings. And sooner or later, after a very long period of time, savoury earth spread itself over the waters where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that forms itself over hot milk as it cools. It was endowed with colour, smell and taste. It was the colour of fine ghee or butter, and it was very sweet, like pure wild honey.
12. 'Then some being of a greedy nature said: "I say, what can this be?" and tasted the savoury earth on its finger. In so doing, it became taken with the flavour, and craving arose in it. Then other beings, taking their cue from that one, also tasted the stuff with their fingers. They too were taken with the flavour, and craving arose in them. So they set to with their hands, breaking off pieces of the stuff in order to eat it. And [86] the result of this was that their self-luminance disappeared. And as a result of the disappearance of their self-luminance, the moon and the sun appeared, night and day were distinguished, months and fortnights appeared, and the year and its seasons. To that extent the world re-evolved.
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/religion/f2001/edit/docs/aggannasutta.pdf


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 20th, 2021 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Wait, so Karma and Rebirth don't exist?
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Then ‘new age’ types who say things like: “It’s all just about your intention man”, are on the right path?

(BTW, I’m not meaning to question the Buddha’s words there wholesale; I’m just implying that perhaps there is more context to be found there)

Or is it just that those who have taken Bodhisattva vows and so forth, have a more potent positive result of good intentions despite actions, than people who have not taken Bodhisattva vows etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally speaking, the idea is that virtue under Buddhist vow gather more merit and have more serious consequences is one becomes nonvirtuous.

In Mahāyāna, virtue is much more situational, however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: How Birth in Pure Land = Nirvāṇa
Content:


Sādhaka said:
There is a author who said that morality springs from spirituality, and not vice-versa.

Malcolm wrote:
Mipham, interestingly, disagrees. He argues that Dharmic virtues arise from mundane virtues, but this is off-topic here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 10:19 PM
Title: HH Sakya Trichen White Tara Initiation
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Starts at 10:30 EDT

https://fb.watch/5ARFSQdb3P


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
what is original enlightenment then?

Malcolm wrote:
The fact that all phenomena have been in a state of nirvana from the very beginning:
“Moreover, Mañjuśrī, bodhisattva mahāsattvas see the emptiness of all
phenomena —phenomena as they are, not as they are not —as they truly are,
unwavering, unshakeable, immutable, unchanging, always as they truly are,
having the nature of space, beyond definition and terminology, unborn,
neither existing nor not existing, not composite, not continuous, spoken of
through the word nonexistence, in an unimpeded state, and manifested from
erroneous conceptualization.
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: How were texts transmitted orally?
Content:
Hazel said:
Thank you. Is there research into what the actual "teaching" of bhāṇakas was like?

Malcolm wrote:
They just chanted texts. For example, Buddhagosha was reputed to have relied on bhāṇakas in composing his Visuddhimagga. They were walking books.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: How Birth in Pure Land = Nirvāṇa
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
The "engaged" Buddhist can do good things, if his or her actions flow naturally from spiritual attainment.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but, it just flows from the practice of the six perfections, aka engaged bodhicitta.

FiveSkandhas said:
But I can't help but feel the rush to "engaged Buddhism" is a symptom of people who have lost their connection with the Dharma, who no longer believe their practice will really lead to anything meaningful.

Malcolm wrote:
You really think Thich Nhat Hahn, Johanna Macy, Bernie Glassman, Bhikku Bodhi, HH Dalai Lama, Gary Snyder, etc., have lost their connection to Dharma and don't believe their practice leads to anything meaningful?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: "...and skillful means are the Ultimate."
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
The Mahavairocana Sutra famously teaches us:

" Enlightened mind is the cause; great compassion is the foundation, and skillful means are the Ultimate."

This formula has haunted me for years, taking on different colorations in meaning over time. I'd be curious as to how you interpret this. For example, how do you see the roles and nuances of the terms "cause," "foundation" and (most enigmatic of all) "ultimate?" How do enlightened mind and compassion relate as a pair, and where does the majestic "ultimate" of skillful means fit in?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhaguhya explains that the cause, bodhicitta, has two aspects: the foundation, aspirational bodhicitta, and the culmination, engaged bodhicitta, the method, meaning the perfection of generosity and so forth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 6:44 PM
Title: Re: Music time
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 6:37 AM
Title: Re: "...and skillful means are the Ultimate."
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
The Mahavairocana Sutra famously teaches us:

" Enlightened mind is the cause; great compassion is the foundation, and skillful means are the Ultimate."

This formula has haunted me for years, taking on different colorations in meaning over time. I'd be curious as to how you interpret this. For example, how do you see the roles and nuances of the terms "cause," "foundation" and (most enigmatic of all) "ultimate?" How do enlightened mind and compassion relate as a pair, and where does the majestic "ultimate" of skillful means fit in?

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure about that translation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 6:36 AM
Title: Re: Erosion in the West
Content:


Manjushri said:
I've been hearing this sort of criticism quite regularly lately, usually by people unacquainted with the tenets and philosophy of buddhism.

I wonder if it's their hubris, prejudice or ignorance that prevents them from realizing that there's a difference between the espousal of sociopolitical views and the nature of the religious affiliation of peoples, which in actuality can be unwittingly contradictory, especially when their classification is merely nominal.

Thus, it would appear that in the minds of such people, the fact that an individual or a group for that matter, could transgress the ethical rules, deceitfully manipulate the doctrine or break the vows pertaining to a religion, is an indication of the character, not of the individuals themselves, but of the religion, for some reason.

That being said, I did not have the time to listen to the interview yet, but I had to vent this little quip concerning Buddhism and the Myanmar situation, that has been in the mouths of so many people lately.


Malcolm wrote:
Militant Buddhists massacring others goes all the way back to Ashoka.

Manjushri said:
Indeed, I am well aware of that. The point that I attempted to address was the fact that criticism of Buddhism…

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism is one thing, Buddhadharma another. Criticizing the former is not a criticism of the latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Can the mind only hold a single object at a time?
Content:
fckw said:
Geez, why then the whole fuzz about "correctness" of any of those systems - other than "fun play"?

Malcolm wrote:
One studies tenet systems to eliminate concepts, not to become expert in concepts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Erosion in the West
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
In the latter, the professor professes Myanmar is proof Buddhism is just another bloody religion

Manjushri said:
I've been hearing this sort of criticism quite regularly lately, usually by people unacquainted with the tenets and philosophy of buddhism.

I wonder if it's their hubris, prejudice or ignorance that prevents them from realizing that there's a difference between the espousal of sociopolitical views and the nature of the religious affiliation of peoples, which in actuality can be unwittingly contradictory, especially when their classification is merely nominal.

Thus, it would appear that in the minds of such people, the fact that an individual or a group for that matter, could transgress the ethical rules, deceitfully manipulate the doctrine or break the vows pertaining to a religion, is an indication of the character, not of the individuals themselves, but of the religion, for some reason.

That being said, I did not have the time to listen to the interview yet, but I had to vent this little quip concerning Buddhism and the Myanmar situation, that has been in the mouths of so many people lately.


Malcolm wrote:
Militant Buddhists massacring others goes all the way back to Ashoka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: The experience of anatta.
Content:
Zenny said:
So any more experiences of anatta?

Johnny Dangerous said:
Of course, simple direct examination of the sense of self - the self image, and having it dissolve upon examination is such an experience.

Even if someone is brand new to (for example) vipaysana meditation, one can experience that what one thought was a sense of self was actually just identification with a transient emotional state.

In a very basic sense this happens outside of Buddhism.

Zenny said:
OK. This is what I was after. Perhaps a little more detail for those who are willing to explain the experience in a bit more detail or when they first experienced it.

Malcolm wrote:
Hankering after other people's experience is just desire for spiritual porn. Get your own damn experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Can the mind only hold a single object at a time?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It's one of the big jokes about all those systems that they try to impress you with long and highly elaborated philosophical treatises, and when you do some digging you realize that they are all full of logical holes. For example, positing something that cannot by definition be derived logically from anything.
This represents a fault in your understanding, not a fault in Dzogchen teachings.

fckw said:
If after studying it you still believe that Buddhist logic in general and dzogchen logic in particular is flawless, then you obviously did not understand it.

Malcolm wrote:
Which logic are you referring to? The caturskoti? This is the most misunderstood idea in all of Buddhism.

Taken at face value, it makes no sense in formal logic. Gee, maybe it is not meant to be a logical proposition. Maybe, just maybe, the fourfold negation by Nāgārjuna actually represent positions his contemporaries held.

There are four possible states proposed in Ancient India for any given thing. It exists. It does not exist. It both exists and does not exist. It neither exists nor does not exist. Nāgārjuna, etc., are refuting these four possibilities because they contradict dependent origination.

Likewise, Dzogchen "logic" similarly does not really depart from Nāgārjuna in this case. Dzogchen negates the positions of others without advancing its own position. Dzogchen, like "Prasangika," has no position of its own.

As Rongzom points out, Dzogchen cannot be negated through logic, nor can it be proven through logic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: The experience of anatta.
Content:
Zenny said:
So any more experiences of anatta?

Malcolm wrote:
You clearly are trolling, since you already declared that selves were real, and experienced things like pain.

Zenny said:
Nope. I'm asking people who believe in anatta what is their experience of it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, you are definitely trolling. FYI, anātma is not a belief. It is something one discovers through analysis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: The experience of anatta.
Content:
Zenny said:
So any more experiences of anatta?

Malcolm wrote:
You clearly are trolling, since you already declared that selves were real, and experienced things like pain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Mantras in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
mabw said:
Greetings,

I am not a Tantrika and I am aware of the issues of secrecy. No problem. Just provide me with info if any to which I am privy.

1) Are mantras revealed in termas? If they are, are these in Tibetan or in Sanskrit? If it is Tibetan, do they conform to the mantras in Indic texts? For example, can they be back translated into Sanskrit?

Malcolm wrote:
Mostly Sanskrit, but some parts might be in Tibetan, usually in the action mantra.

mabw said:
2) I notice high-ranking Lamas have their own mantras. Are these composed by the Lamas themselves?

Malcolm wrote:
Name mantras are formed by a standard procedure, using the Sanskrit equivalent of a lama's name.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It expands and contracts in massive time cycles that have no beginning—there is no beginning to samsara.
Turtles all the way down...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
I'm saying that before there was a Buddha who earned the Three Bodies there was only a  Dhamrakaya Body, an actual Entity people refered to as the Primordial Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
There was never a time when there were no buddhas, just as there was never a time when there were no sentient beings.

Minobu said:
You are forgetting we have visited this before. There was a time before the desire realms. It was a time when beings of light fed off light until desire crept in. Thus samsara was born.

Malcolm wrote:
There are also a time before that, and a time before that, and a time before that. There is no beginning to the universe. It expands and contracts in massive time cycles that have no beginning—there is no beginning to samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As far as Shinto goes, there have been Shinto religious movements which identify themselves as explicitly nonbuddhist, often tied to nativist sentiments.

Queequeg said:
This is quite true. Ise Shrine,

Malcolm wrote:
I've been there. Amazing place.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
With respect, Malcolm, I think that's a false equivalence.
As far as I know, no-one "takes refuge" in Shinto (or Hindu) deities. They worship them, pray to them, make offerings to them.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, here you are mistaken. There are specific refuge prayers to Hindu deities, recited by Hindus, for example, gaṇesha sharaṇam, sharaṇam gaṇesha. Or this:

https://reveredhinduism.blogspot.com/2016/07/suvarnamala-stuti.html

As far as Shinto goes, there have been Shinto religious movements which identify themselves as explicitly nonbuddhist, often tied to nativist sentiments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 19th, 2021 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: The experience of anatta.
Content:
Zenny said:
All these explanations presume there is no self in the first place.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they don't. They are post-analytical deductions.

Zenny said:
Dialectics doesn't change the fact pain is real and experienced by an individual who is real. Or are humans not real either?

Malcolm wrote:
"Human" is a designation made upon some parts, like "car," "table," etc.

This real individual, where does it exist? In the body? In what part of the body? etc. You have to examine these things yourself. If you do this examination in good faith, you will discover in your personal experience that no self exists which is anything other then a conventional designation. But if you are not willing to do with work...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Can the mind only hold a single object at a time?
Content:
fckw said:
There are really only 3 basic positions that I personally know of. What I'm saying is not so much a philosophical description (there might exist many more detailed philosophical descriptions) but rather an empirical, i.e. based on what you actually "perceive" during mind training.

In the Therevada schools mind events arise in succession, i.e. they are discrete and there is no continuity among them. Each mind moment has its own consciousness. The idea of a "stream" is imputed in retrospective, as has been pointed out above.

In certain Hindu schools such as Patanjali Yogasutras mind itself is a continuum only, i.e. one single "amorphous mind mass" continuously transmorphing into just the next form. Here, it cannot be said that the mind holds a single object at a time, because according to this view there really are no distinct mind moments holding objects at all. It's one single, eternal, ever changing mind moment, with one single ever-changing object, so to say. (Needless to say that Buddhist practitioners typically are not familiar with corresponding meditative practices and would reject this view, as it is exclusively "Hindu".)

Malcolm wrote:
Purusha is eternal and static. Prakriti undergoes transformations but not Purusha—it is a passive, eternal witness and when one attains kaivalya one no longer bothers with prakrit's transformations.

fckw said:
What both the Therevada Vipassana and Patanjali Yogasutra system of practice have in common is that neither has practices to reach beyond time and space.

In the dzogchen/mahamudra school the practice goes beyond time (and space), so to say. Therefore, the idea of a succession in the sense of a stream of mind moments or one "mind mass transmorphing continuously" does not apply. Mind moments, as they arise, can by definition not be in succession.

Malcolm wrote:
Also not true. Dzogchen does not negate momentariness, for example in the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra:

When there is no movement in the mind,
the essence of a single moment of consciousness
is said to be momentarily without concepts.

Or the commentary on the Tantra Without Syllables:

Since those appearances were recognized as one’s own appearances,
(1) there are no stages and paths to traverse, (2) there is no accomplishment
through effort, and (3) [those appearances] revert automatically in
three moments into the original basis.

Or the commentary on the Blazing Lamp:

...after a person of the highest capacity exhausts the vāyu of the karma of concepts,
the first bardo is made a momentary object, and [94b] one attains buddhahood in three moments.

fckw said:
It's one of the big jokes about all those systems that they try to impress you with long and highly elaborated philosophical treatises, and when you do some digging you realize that they are all full of logical holes. For example, positing something that cannot by definition be derived logically from anything.

Malcolm wrote:
This represents a fault in your understanding, not a fault in Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
I'm saying that before there was a Buddha who earned the Three Bodies there was only a  Dhamrakaya Body, an actual Entity people refered to as the Primordial Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
There was never a time when there were no buddhas, just as there was never a time when there were no sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: The experience of anatta.
Content:


Zenny said:
Why is the "realisation" always individual?

Malcolm wrote:
Mind streams are distinct and unique, this is axiomatic in Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: The experience of anatta.
Content:


Zenny said:
And why do aggregates always belong to one person at a time?

Malcolm wrote:
They do not belong to a person, also "person" is just a nominal designation applied to the aggregates.

An individual's aggregates are individual because the addictive aggregates (upadana skandhas) are appropriated by an afflicted consciousness under the delusion of a self. When that consciousness is free from delusion of a self, it ceases to appropriate aggregates because they are no longer addictive. For example, when the urge to smoke tobacco ceases, tobacco is no longer addictive.

The purpose of the teaching of the five aggregates is to show that there is no self, since no self can be found in any one of the aggregates, in all of them together, or separate from them.

If you wish to truly understand Buddhadharma, you should begin with Abhidharma, and study it with proper guidance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: The experience of anatta.
Content:
tkp67 said:
I think that while self might be really prevalent in some people it can be more subtle in others. Then the cliche of a person being selfless to a fault comes to mind. Can someone lack a "discernible" self by being conditioned to undervalue their own existence for the sake of others?

This would seem to explain why the various traditions have different means for understanding and measuring anatta.

Is there a danger of being overly confident in a stage of anatta where regression is still possible? Can a practitioner become satisfied with the stage of entry and due to this avoid seeking further progression?

Zenny said:
Could you clarify what is meant by being overly confident in a stage of anatta?

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot experience the absence of the something that has never existed. All one can do is recognize that there never has been a self, and understand ones experience of a self is a nominal designation upon the aggregates.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 6:51 PM
Title: Re: is buddhist an exclusivist religion?
Content:
FiveSkandhas said:
About 60 million Japanese people identify as "both Shinto and Buddhist." They have been doing so in one form or another for almost 1500 years.

It's rather dismissive to say they aren't "real" Buddhists.

Shakyamuni Buddha also states in one of the Ksitigarbha Sutras (and probably elsewhere) that he has appeared as numerous things to reach sentient beings, from "pools of water" to "Gods" and "Brahmins" (I think this last one is included in the list). Perhaps in some cases, phenomena of other religions are upaya of the Buddha...

Malcolm wrote:
The issue is refuge. Do many Japanese people take refuge in Shinto deities like Amaterasu-no-kami? Some do, but they are not Buddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 9:30 AM
Title: Re: No tathāgatagarbha according this person
Content:
narhwal90 said:
Speaking as a long-time and continuing Nichiren follower, I agree that Dogen is considerably more profound.   Despite his frequently oblique and puzzling language, there is a more straightforward and thorough presentation of subtlety.   I would say Nichiren is at his best when he is not contorting established doctrine around his own practice.   It may be those moments are not profound, but something simpler.  But that is my own projection speaking.

Malcolm wrote:
The one passage that endeared me to Honen was his observation that no leaf he could visualize in Sukhavati was more beautiful or perfect than a leaf on a tree of Hiezan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 8:50 AM
Title: Re: No tathāgatagarbha according this person
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
As a contrast, Eihei Dogen, founder of Japanese Soto Zen, https://dogeninstitute.wordpress.com/2017/08/27/attain-the-way/ not only the idea that it was useless to practice during Mappo, but the idea of Mappo itself:
In Shobogenzo Zuimonki, he acknowledged that many people believed in the age of the Last Dharma, saying, “Many people in the secular world say, ‘Although I have aspiration to study the Way, the world is in the age of the Last Dharma. People’s quality has been declining and I have only inferior capabilities. I cannot bear to practice being in accordance with the Dharma. I would like to follow an easier way which is suitable to me, to just make a connection [with the Buddha], and expect to attain realization in a future lifetime.’”

And Dogen expressed his counter-argument:

“Now, I say that this saying is totally wrong. In the Buddha Dharma, distinguishing the three periods of time — the age of True Dharma, Semblance Dharma, and Last Dharma — is only a temporary expedient. The genuine teaching of the Way is not like this. When we practice [following the teaching], all of us should be able to attain [the Way]. Monks while [Shakyamuni] was alive were not necessarily superior. There were some monks who had incredibly despicable minds and who were inferior in capacity. The Buddha set forth various kinds of precepts for the sake of bad people and inferior people. Each and every human being has the possibility [to clarify] the Dharma. Do not think that you are not a vessel. When we practice in accordance [with the Dharma], all of us should be able to attain [the Way]. Since we already have a mind, we can distinguish between good and bad. Since we have hands and feet, we don’t lack anything for doing gassho and walking. In practicing the Buddha Dharma, we should not be concerned with the quality [of people]. All beings within the human realm are all vessels [of the Buddha Dharma].

Malcolm wrote:
I am on Dogen’s side.

Honestly, of what I have read of Dogen, Nichiren, Honen, and Shinran, Dogen is by far the most profound writer, followed by Honen, then Shinran, with Nichiren coming in last.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 7:51 AM
Title: Re: No tathāgatagarbha according this person
Content:
Queequeg said:
As for who was "infected" with Mappo thought, pretty much the entire literate Japanese world, and everyone tuned into the literate people. It was taken pretty seriously by a lot of people throughout the Heian period. The hand wringing was widespread in the Heian period and became the lens through which to view the natural disasters, political strife and Mongol invasions in the centuries that followed, especially the Kamakura period.  It was like a pall that hung over Japan for centuries. From the late Heian period, they thought they were coming to the end of the world and the disorder that started in the mid and late Heian periods through the 16th c. - just seemed to confirm this. Its a big part of where this nostalgic romanticism in Japanese culture comes from - cherry blossoms and kinzuki, and wabi sabi, and all that.

Malcolm wrote:
This idea of the age of the five degenerations dominated Tibetan Buddhist thinking in the 13th century, and much before, all the way back to the Yarlung period (625-840), and still does.

jake said:
Thanks both, I've enjoyed the discussion. I've yet to really encounter any writings in Shingon on Mappo. It would seem to run contrary to one of the key ideas of Kukai, or at least how I understand it, that all of existence is the preaching of the Dharma by Mahavairocana. I don't know how it is considered in Tendai?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s quite present in Esoteric Buddhist texts such as the Manjushri mule Kalpa, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: No tathāgatagarbha according this person
Content:
Queequeg said:
As for who was "infected" with Mappo thought, pretty much the entire literate Japanese world, and everyone tuned into the literate people. It was taken pretty seriously by a lot of people throughout the Heian period. The hand wringing was widespread in the Heian period and became the lens through which to view the natural disasters, political strife and Mongol invasions in the centuries that followed, especially the Kamakura period.  It was like a pall that hung over Japan for centuries. From the late Heian period, they thought they were coming to the end of the world and the disorder that started in the mid and late Heian periods through the 16th c. - just seemed to confirm this. Its a big part of where this nostalgic romanticism in Japanese culture comes from - cherry blossoms and kinzuki, and wabi sabi, and all that.

Malcolm wrote:
This idea of the age of the five degenerations dominated Tibetan Buddhist thinking in the 13th century, and much before, all the way back to the Yarlung period (625-840), and still does.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: No tathāgatagarbha according this person
Content:



Queequeg said:
No. It was thought to be the Degenerate Age so it was thought that the people appearing had no connection to Shakyamuni and could not benefit from his teachings.

This is the basis for Nichiren and Japanese Pure Land:

Nichiren - people appearing have no connection to Dharma and so a connection must be planted.
Pure Land - people appearing have no connection to Dharma and so aspiration for birth in Sukhavati through the power of Amida's vow is the easiest (only realistic) path.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, but this ignores the fact that Rinzai Zen would became the most widespread school in Japan by the 13th century; just as Chan, during the 13th century, was the most widespread school in China. So this pessimism may have infected portions of the Buddhist population, but it by no means was the point of view of everyone.

Queequeg said:
I don't think that Rinzai was ever the most widespread school in Japan. It received patronage from the samurai class and so had lots of nice temples built, but common folk were chanting the nembutsu and aspiring for rebirth in Sukhavati, overwhelmingly.

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently, from my reading, during the Muromachi period, Rinzai was quite dominant. But I am not an expert in Japanese history, not even remotely.

Apart from Nicherenistas, all Mahāyānis aspire for birth in Sukhavati. It's baked in.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: No tathāgatagarbha according this person
Content:


tkp67 said:
Keeping to simple terms and understanding Nichiren sought to connect those to the dharma who had no connection otherwise.

Malcolm wrote:
Everyone in Japan was a Buddhist in the 13th century, every one was connected with the Dharma. So I am not sure what you are getting at.

Queequeg said:
No. It was thought to be the Degenerate Age so it was thought that the people appearing had no connection to Shakyamuni and could not benefit from his teachings.

This is the basis for Nichiren and Japanese Pure Land:

Nichiren - people appearing have no connection to Dharma and so a connection must be planted.
Pure Land - people appearing have no connection to Dharma and so aspiration for birth in Sukhavati through the power of Amida's vow is the easiest (only realistic) path.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, but this ignores the fact that Rinzai Zen would became the most widespread school in Japan by the 13th century; just as Chan, during the 13th century, was the most widespread school in China. So this pessimism may have infected portions of the Buddhist population, but it by no means was the point of view of everyone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: No tathāgatagarbha according this person
Content:


tkp67 said:
Keeping to simple terms and understanding Nichiren sought to connect those to the dharma who had no connection otherwise.

Malcolm wrote:
Everyone in Japan was a Buddhist in the 13th century, every one was connected with the Dharma. So I am not sure what you are getting at.

tkp67 said:
It was obfuscated because they held the teachings in contest. If I understand correctly Nichiren saw this as a sign the dharma was counterfeit in accordance to the LS. This is what motivated his decision to propagate it.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, but Nichiren's criteria is very narrow because of his intense partisan attitude. People did not take issue with Nichiren just for shits and giggles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 18th, 2021 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: "Realms"
Content:
mansurhirbi87 said:
i'd like to know the origin (where in the sutras or great commentators) of the ten realms and how Tiantai got his conclusions about them.
i made a search and it's curious that something so basic in Nichiren and Tiantai buddhism cannot be traced

jake said:
I thought this was common in all Mahayana traditions, is it only East Asian?

Malcolm wrote:
It is only an East Asian thing.

In Indo-Tibetan Buddhism what is discussed are six realms and three realms. Āryas by definition belong to either the desire realm (human realm) or the form realm (the five pure abodes), there are no āryas in the formless realm.


