﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 31st, 2018 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Pittsburgh massacre
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The state of American public education is in tatters.


Malcolm wrote:
Primarily because conservatives undermined funding for education.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 31st, 2018 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: Pittsburgh massacre
Content:
Grigoris said:
When was the last time you saw a left-wing extremist engage in mass murder for political ends?  As such this equating of one side with the other is ingenious and dangerous and is generally used by supporters of extreme-right views to justify their actions.

Queequeg said:
Stalin? Mao? Pol Pot?

I'll take a wild guess that I'm woefully ignorant and these guys weren't left-wing extremists at all.

Malcolm wrote:
We are not talking about conditions in the Soviet Union in the 1920's, China in the 1940's. or Cambodia in the 1970's. We are talking about conditions in the USA in 2018.


At its height, there were never more than a few hundred Weatherman, maybe a 100,000 or so Panthers. There are more than 300,000 "so-called" sovereign citizens and supporters in this country, all of whom believe the US Government is illegal:
If there is an insurgency-in-waiting, it will likely be drawn from the hundreds of antigovernment groups across the country, many of which were readying for civil war in 2016 in the event of a Hillary Clinton presidency. One of the most extreme examples is an ideological subculture made up of “sovereign citizens,” who believe that citizens are the sole authority of law. Ryan Lenz, a senior investigative reporter for the Southern Poverty Law Center, has been researching them for nearly eight years. It’s been a terrifying eight years. A 2011 splc report pegged the number of the sovereign citizens, a mix of hard-core believers and sympathizers, at 300,000. The movement, Lenz believes, has grown significantly since then.
https://thewalrus.ca/americas-next-civil-war/


Queequeg said:
Not all tax protesters are sovereign citizens, and many newer recruits to the sovereign life did not start out as tax protesters. But based on the available evidence, a reasonable estimate of hard-core sovereign believers today would be 100,000, with another 200,000 just starting out by testing sovereign techniques for resisting everything from speeding tickets to drug charges, for a total of 300,000. As sovereign theories go viral throughout the nation's prison systems and among people who are unemployed and desperate in a punishing recession, this number is likely to grow.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2010/sovereign-citizen-kane


There are approximately 11 million Americans with alt-right views.

Queequeg said:
But new research from the University of Alabama’s George Hawley, published by UVA’s Institute for Family Studies, suggests this isn’t the case. According to Hawley, a political scientist who specializes in demography and the far right, roughly 5.64 percent of America’s 198 million non-Hispanic whites have beliefs consistent with the alt-right’s worldview. Whether or not they would describe themselves as alt-right, Hawley argues, they share the movement’s belief in a politics that promotes white interests above those of other racial groups.

If Hawley is right, then the alt-right’s constituency isn’t a tiny fringe. It’s about 11 million Americans.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670992/study-white-americans-alt-right-racism-white-nationalists


How many people have been killed by Antifa?

Queequeg said:
Long story short: the number of deaths currently attributable to Antifa is zero, and there aren’t really left-wing groups that engage in political violence to match their counterparts on the right. The reality is that since the end of the Vietnam era, left-wing political violence is far outweighed by its right-wing counterpart:

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-have-been-killed-in-the-USA-by-Antifa-or-other-left-wing-group-I-do-not-live-in-the-USA-but-I-often-hear-about-left-wing-terrorism-It-seems-hard-to-find-such-data

Queequeg said:
In the real world, since the end of the Vietnam era, the overwhelming majority of serious political violence—not counting vandalism or punches thrown at protests, but violence with lethal intent—has come from the fringes of the right. Heidi Beirich, director of the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Intelligence Project says that “if you go back to the 1960s, you see all kinds of left-wing terrorism, but since then it’s been exceedingly rare.” She notes that eco- and animal-rights extremists caused extensive property damage in the 1990s, but didn’t target people.

Meanwhile, says Beirich, “right-wing domestic terrorism has been common throughout that period, going back to groups like to The Order, which assassinated [liberal talk-radio host] Alan Berg [in 1984] right through to today.” Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow at the Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism, told NPR that “when you look at murders committed by domestic extremists in the United States of all types, right-wing extremists are responsible for about 74 percent of those murders.”

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.thenation.com/article/why-does-the-far-right-hold-a-near-monopoly-on-political-violence/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 31st, 2018 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Pittsburgh massacre
Content:



Grigoris said:
How's the French thinking it is Iraq...  I guess they didn't translate the question properly into French.

DGA said:
I think it's the Syrian flag there, not the Iraqi one.

Grigoris said:
Yes, I do believe you are right.

Still a silly choice as Syria as a country (like Iraq) cannot threaten world peace, the people funding the proxy war are the one's threatening world peace.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean the US, the Russians, the Iranians, and the Saudis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 31st, 2018 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Pittsburgh massacre
Content:
drodul said:
Grigoris, what is the flag that is superimposed on Canada and the USA on the map you posted?

Malcolm wrote:
The Saudi flag.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 30th, 2018 at 5:55 AM
Title: America”s Next Civil War
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://thewalrus.ca/americas-next-civil-war/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 30th, 2018 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:



Pero said:
The latter.

Malcolm wrote:
You are still conscious.

Pero said:
I'm sorry but I don't understand.


Malcolm wrote:
If you can remember your dream, it shows you were conscious. You cannot remember anything from when you were unconscious.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 30th, 2018 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:


Pero said:
But if I don't know I am dreaming, how can you say that I am conscious?

Malcolm wrote:
You mean if you do not remember your dreams, or do you mean being unaware that in a dream you are dreaming?

Pero said:
The latter.

Malcolm wrote:
You are still conscious.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In general, what Buddhism considers latent are afflictions (kleṣa), termed in their latent form, anuśaya. There are 6 basic anuśaya: attachment, anger, pride, ignorance, false views, and doubt.

Losal Samten said:
Do you know why we generally see jealousy replace false views and doubt? Do false views and doubt correspond to the generation of the human and asura manifestations?

Malcolm wrote:
Not in the this schemata. You are really talking about a Vajrayāna scheme.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: whatnow727 message to Lamas
Content:
PeterC said:
I think this is a really bad idea.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed. This is a really bad idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
My point was simply that there were, in the view of Buddhadharma, no such thing as unconscious memories, i.e. data that is storied somewhere in some medium to be called forth later.

Wayfarer said:
It seems to me that this is hard to reconcile with:
As a matter of interest, what is the translation/etymology of the term ‘alaya’ in the compound ‘alaya-Vijñāna’?

Malcolm wrote:
Ā means all. Laya means, in this context, a place of repose, residence, etc. It is glossed by the Tibetans as gzhi, i.e. a basis.

Wayfarer said:
Bill Waldron's book, The Buddhist Unconscious, shows in detail the doctrinal requirements that resulted in the development of the Alaya-Vijñāna or 'storehouse consciousness'. I don't think you need to reify it as any kind of entity or over-arching 'one mind', if that is the concern. But I don't think it's feasible to deny that there is such a concept, either.

Malcolm wrote:
You are not really understanding the intent of the doctrine. The idea is that appearances of the universe are a result of karmavipaka. How does that karmavipaka ripen? The Yogacāra school theorized a process called cittasaṃtanaparinama, the transformation of the mind stream. This comes about because it is held that when we engage in an action, this creates an impression, called a vāsanā, literally, "perfume," in Tibetan, bag chags. This is also called a bija or seed. These seeds are held to be stored in a consciousness called the ālayavijñāna, which upon the elimination of all the seeds then vanishes. An impression or seed, when it meets its special condition for transformation of ripening, then gives rise to an appearance that corresponds to the action which produced it.

Asanga argues that this ālayavijñāna is the same thing as the Theravada bhavanga, or linking consciousness. On the other hand, the ālaya does not have objects it does not operate through the senses. It is the object, however, of the kliṣṭamanas, the afflicted mind. The other senses consciousnesses are products of the ripening of these seeds which create the appearances of outer objects such as the universe and so on.

So, it really does not, in the Yogacāra theory, function like an unconscious mind.


Wayfarer said:
And I think as a practical matter, any Buddhist has to acknowledge that there are 'latent tendencies' which are not always fully conscious but which manifest (or 'come to fruition') in response to circumstances or stimuli (I know I certainly do). I find it a bit hard to understand why those wouldn't be understood in terms of being un- or sub-conscious tendencies.

Malcolm wrote:
But here we are talking about memory. Memories are active concepts of the seven consciousnesses. This is basic to all Buddhist thinking on the issue. The question concerned whether Buddhism acknowledged what we term unconscious mental processes. It doesn't. The distinction made in Buddhism is a distinction between nonconceptual and conceptual cognitive processes: for example direct perceptions on the one hand, and the identification of direct perceptions as objects on the other. We are not necessarily aware, in a conscious sense, of all that we directly perceive because direct perceptions are by nature nonconceptual, and to be conscious of a given thing requires us to have a concept about it. In other words, the first moment of cognition is nonconceptual; in the second moment, mental factors such as perception jump in and allow us to discriminate the blue object we are having a direct perception of as a blue cup. When we have direct perceptions of unfamiliar entities, we struggle to discriminate them, and often, we do not bother to discriminate them at all. But we cannot become conscious of a given thing of which we have not had a direct perception-- this does not bar us from having an imagination, but in reality our abstract imagination is predicated on bits and pieces of newly arranged direct perceptions. The Buddhist theory of cognition, as has been noted, is in general a) nominalist and b) resembles, somewhat, Hume's pov in the Inquiry into Human Understanding. The outlier is Yogacāra, which bears some similarities to Berkely's thought.

In general, what Buddhism considers latent are afflictions (kleṣa), termed in their latent form, anuśaya. There are 6 basic anuśaya: attachment, anger, pride, ignorance, false views, and doubt. These anuśayas are not subconscious tendencies. These six then gets further divided into a total of 98. If you want to know more about them, their number and so on, consult chapter 5 of the Koshabhasyam.

Karma can never be latent, why? Because karma is caused by afflictions. According to Madhyamaka, a karma continues without ceasing until it meets its condition for ripening; according to Yogacāra, a karma makes an impression, then ceases; and when that impression meets it special condition for ripening, it does.

If you want to understand in more detail how this all works in Yogacāra, one should consult the Mahāyāna Samgraha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
My point was simply that there were, in the view of Buddhadharma, no such thing as unconscious memories, i.e. data that is storied somewhere in some medium to be called forth later. Memory, in Buddharma, is simply the ability to recall objects that the mind has experienced. The power of that memory is commensurate with one's level of concentration. To repeat, no medium was ever proposed in which memories are stored. Essentially, from the point of view of Buddhadharma, we do not have unrecalled memories. If we do not remember something, it is not a memory. A memory can only be called a memory if there is a recollection of some past experience we have recalled in the present through a conceptual operation related to the seven dhātus of consciousness. An unrecalled memory is a nonmemory in Buddhadharma.

Grigoris said:
Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When you dream, you are conscious, but what you are experiencing is the activation of traces.

Pero said:
But if I don't know I am dreaming, how can you say that I am conscious?

Malcolm wrote:
You mean if you do not remember your dreams, or do you mean being unaware that in a dream you are dreaming?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
My point was simply that there were, in the view of Buddhadharma, no such thing as unconscious memories, i.e. data that is storied somewhere in some medium to be called forth later.

Wayfarer said:
As a matter of interest, what is the translation/etymology of the term ‘alaya’ in the compound ‘alaya-Vijñāna’?

Malcolm wrote:
Ā means all. Laya means, in this context, a place of repose, residence, etc. It is glossed by the Tibetans as gzhi, i.e. a basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Pittsburgh massacre
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
To make them tap out here: this type of speech could be treated as aiding a terrorist group and prosecuted as such.

Malcolm wrote:
That kind of speech should be legislated as illegal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...
The model used, if one can call it a model, is clarity vs. cloudiness, distracted vs. undistracted. That is If your mind is clear/concentrated, you can remember more, if your mind is cloudy/distracted, you remember less. But in this model, no storage medium was ever proposed or even intimated.

Pero said:
In other words, theoretically, one does not remember everything that one ever experienced due to obscurations but in reality it's all "there"?

Also, could you please answer how (non-lucid) dreams are not an unconscious working of the mind?

Malcolm wrote:
When you dream, you are conscious, but what you are experiencing is the activation of traces.

Simply put, when you have more clarity, you can remember more of your experience. You don't need to worry "where" those experiences are stored.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Grigoris said:
The other point is that non-distraction means that the mind is not drawn away from something, an object of the mind.  Thus we come back to the point you refuted earlier of wrongly considering memories as phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
Memories are mental concepts possessed by any of seven dhātus of consciousness of external or internal objects with which we are familiar. This is the basic definition.

My point was simply that there were, in the view of Buddhadharma, no such thing as unconscious memories, i.e. data that is storied somewhere in some medium to be called forth later. Memory, in Buddharma, is simply the ability to recall objects that the mind has experienced. The power of that memory is commensurate with one's level of concentration. To repeat, no medium was ever proposed in which memories are stored. Essentially, from the point of view of Buddhadharma, we do not have unrecalled memories. If we do not remember something, it is not a memory. A memory can only be called a memory if there is a recollection of some past experience we have recalled in the present through a conceptual operation related to the seven dhātus of consciousness. An unrecalled memory is a nonmemory in Buddhadharma.

But in modern parlance, we have become accustomed to referring to things we have not recalled as "memories" because we recall things we have forgotten, and so we infer, we must have unconscious memories because we are very conditioned by pop Freudianism, and imagine there is such a thing as an unconscious mind, also rejected in Buddhadharma, which stores memories and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism explains memory perfectly well. It does just not explain memory with the present-day metaphor of data stored in a storage medium for later recall. Instead it describes memory as a function of mental nondistraction.

Grigoris said:
Before the present day metaphor there were other non-technological metaphors that pointed in the same direction/towards the same notion.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in Buddhism.



Grigoris said:
Also this idea of memory as non-distraction does not even come near to explaining what I said earlier: You are talking about recalling/remembering. I personally do not walk around with a conscious recollection of every single one of my memories during every single moment of the day. It would be impossible to do so. Ergo...

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadharma does not have the word "memory" as you are using it here. This is the problem. You are framing memories as data (familiar or strong experiences) which is stored somewhere (the body, consciousness, etc.). This metaphor is absent in Buddhadharma whether we use the notion of marks on a piece if paper or data on a drive. This may be because the semantic field of the Buddhadharma ideas of memory/recollection predate and never later accommodated a model of data storage based on writing things down on paper.

The model used, if one can call it a model, is clarity vs. cloudiness, distracted vs. undistracted. That is If your mind is clear/concentrated, you can remember more, if your mind is cloudy/distracted, you remember less. But in this model, no storage medium was ever proposed or even intimated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Grigoris said:
Then I would have to say that "Buddhism" needs to reassess it's theories on memory.  I guess the Yogacarin's tried to do it with the Alya Vijnana, but met with resistance from the dominant theoretical thread of Madhyamaka.

Malcolm wrote:
The definitions I provided to you above from strictly from Yogacāra and its antecedents.


Grigoris said:
Regardless, quite clearly the current position does not adequately explain memory and how it functions.  Not by a long shot. It does not answer any of the questions/hypothetical points I posed to you.  Keep in mind that these points are based on practical observations, so it is going to take a little more than a few Sanskrit terms being thrown around to convince me of something different.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism explains memory perfectly well. It does just not explain memory with the present-day metaphor of data stored in a storage medium for later recall. Instead it describes memory as a function of mental nondistraction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Pittsburgh massacre
Content:
Grigoris said:
Do people still want to insist . . . that Fascism can be countered by peaceful resistance?

clyde said:
The Buddha is reported to have said, “Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Malcolm wrote:
Karl Popper wrote:
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
John Rawls:
While an intolerant sect does not itself have title to complain of intolerance, its freedom should be restricted only when the tolerant sincerely and with reason believe that their own security and that of the institutions of liberty are in danger.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 29th, 2018 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:



Grigoris said:
When I am talking about smaskara I am referring to karmic formations, to (put it simply) habits.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you are not talking about the samskara skangha, you are talking about second link in the twelve links of dependent origination.

In Tibetan Buddhism, we don't use this lingo. This lingo comes from Goenka's Vipassna.

What are you are talking about is bag chags or vāsanā. This is a term derived from Yogacāra theory. They are impressions upon consciousness which are activated through a specific cause and condition which causes them to generate a karmic appearance.

Vasubandhu defines memories as concepts connected with the seven mental elements: i.e. eye through mental consciousness as well as the manodhātu.

Asanga defines memory as the absence of forgetting an object with which the mind is familiar. He further defines affliction as the basis of a distracted memory, as does Vasubandhu in his treatise on the five aggregates.

Basically, they both define the mechanism of memory as being free from mental distractions. The more undistracted one is, that is free from affliction one is, the better one's memory will become. But there is no definition of memory having some matrix, or memories existing in some latent form. Memories are simply knowing some familiar entity that one experienced in the past. This also explains why we do not remember and will never remember most of what we experience on a day to day basis. Most of what we experience is either too trivial to recall or it is an object with which we have no repeated familiarity.

Grigoris said:
I do not think that neuroscience will be able to adequately explain memory, mainly because neuroscience deals with brain and not mind.  I believe that the explanation found in Buddhism based on the idea of the alaya-vijnana, or of samskara (as habits based on past volitional actions) is more fitting.

Malcolm wrote:
That explanation which you seek does not exist in Buddhist texts. You are fabricating it. If you examine Abhidharma, Madhyamaka, Yogācara, etc., you will never find the definition of memory presented in the terms you describe. One does not even see memory described in terms of bag chags.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Dudjom Yangsi Dorje Drollö empowerment Toronto
Content:
Tlalok said:
Emaho!

Would this http://vimalatreasures.org/the-daily-practice-of-the-secret-sadhana-of-dorje-drollod.aspx be the appropriate sadhana text then, based off the empowerment(s) we recieved?

Malcolm wrote:
In general, probably. Usually, one does the outer drollo sadhana, for which there is a retreat manual, then one does Pema Sogdrub.

Those who are doing KDL's drollo don't have to do anything different as KDL's drollo and DR's drollo are related.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Bill Waldron said:
Although there was no explicit concept of unconscious mind in early Buddhism (roughly 5th-2nd centuries BCE), there was an awareness of processes that later Buddhists, like many modern scholars, would consider descriptively unconscious. These included not only the various cognitive processes that subserve all ordinary perception, but also our ongoing emotional dispositions and sense of self-identity.

Wayfarer said:
Also, I would have thought that the fact that yogis are able to suspend their respiration and other metabolic processes, in a way which the untrained can definitely not do, arises from their awareness of and mastery over autonomic and semi-autonomic functions, which for most people are unconscious.

Malcolm wrote:
I think BIll Waldron is reading too much into his sources.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: I wish to marry a Dakini
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Dakini type women are rocket fuel to your olive oil.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, there are no wisdom ḍākinīs in human lands.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Wayfarer said:
the reality of unconscious and subconscious is indubitable, in my view.

Malcolm wrote:
These things do not exist, and you cannot explain their mechanism.

Wayfarer said:
bringing to light unconscious memories can be very challenging

Malcolm wrote:
There are no such thing as unconsciousness memories. If you are not conscious of a mental event, it is not a memory. That is just not how the brain works, if you like neuroscience explanations, and it definitely is not how Buddhadharma explains memory.

Wayfarer said:
William Waldron has a book, The Buddhist Unconscious: The Alaya-vijñana in the context of Indian Buddhist Thought:
This is the story of fifth century CE India, when the Yogacara tested the awareness of unawareness, and became aware of human unawareness to an extraordinary degree. They not only explicitly differentiated this dimension of mental processes from conscious cognitive processes, but also offered reasoned arguments on behalf of this dimension of mind. This is the concept of the 'Buddhist unconscious', which arose just as philosophical discourse in other circles was fiercely debating the limits of conscious awareness, and these ideas in turn had developed as a systematisation of teachings from the Buddha himself.

Malcolm wrote:
The ālayavijñāna is not actually a separate consciousness. It is a name for consciousness in its role as a repository of traces, vasanas (a theory of the Yogacārins the Madhyamaka find very faulty).

In the Yogacāra system, the ālayavijñāna does not perform any cognitive function at all, not even as an unconscious. In the Yogacāra presentation, it is basically inert, which is why Madhyamakas tend to reject their presentation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The question could be asked, why Gautama suddenly recalled all of his past lives during the third watch (I think it was) of the night of his Enlightenment. It is said that detailed knowledge of all of these lives was suddenly recalled at this time. So, why didn’t he already know it, and where had these memories been residing before they had been recalled?

Malcolm wrote:
He recalled his past lives sequentially, not all at once, in a reverse sequence. Memories are not stored anywhere. There does not need to be a storage medium, in fact, one cannot exist. The past does not exist, the future has yet to come to be, the present is already gone. The emptiness of the mind itself is sufficient cause for memory recollection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are imagining that memories are entities that have some existence somewhere in your mind of which you are unaware, like data records.

It is not how memory works.

Grigoris said:
A dependently arisen mental phenomenon.  Yes.  If there were no memories, then mentally/emotionally we would always be starting from scratch.  We quite clearly don't.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not how memory works, either in neuroscience or Buddhism.

In neuroscience, the subject of memory is a big topic. There are many types of memories.

In Buddhadharma, memory is also a mental factor, dran pa. It always accompanies consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Unknown said:
Is blinking a non-conceptual or an unconscious activity?  What about pulling away one's hand when they touch a overly hot object?

Malcolm wrote:
Nonconceptual.



Unknown said:
All samkaras are activities related with being conscious. They are not unconscious events.
Yes, they are formed by volitional actions, as are habits, but over time the need for volition disappears and yet the actions continue to manifest.  An example would be exaggerated startle responses to non-threatening phenomena.  These are rarely conscious or motivated.  Another example is chronic anxiety.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you understand. The caittas are mental factors that assist or are associated with consciousness perform functions for consciousness in various activities. They are not "habits." Volition is one of those mental factors, one of the ten neutral mental factors. I don't you are using samskaras in the proper sense here. Samskaras as the link after ignorance refers to the karmas performed in the past life, generally speaking.


Unknown said:
They are conscious, but they may not be conscious of, I think this is where we are disagreeing.

Malcolm wrote:
They are conscious of something, even if it is not what they ought to be conscious of. This called distraction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are not being precise. I am. Be precise.

Grigoris said:
I have been clear and precise, you are reading things into my statements to support your counter-position. What do you mean by lack of awareness? Generally, to lack awareness means to be unconscious, as in deep sleep, or under anesthesia. If you are awake, you are both conscious and aware.
Actions based on habit.  When I am sparring in Muay Thai (for example) I constantly do things that are programmed, without me being conscious of doing them, nor having to be motivated to do them.  They come out automatically.  If there is awareness there it is subtle and REALLY fast.  Faster than the finger click that Buddhist models of consciousness say exists between specific moments of consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
You are confusing "non-conceptual" with "unconscious."


Grigoris said:
What do you mean by samskara? Are you referring to the skandha or the link in dependent origination.
Skhanda.

Malcolm wrote:
All samkaras are activities related with being conscious. They are not unconscious events.

Grigoris said:
Everyone knows that they are angry when they are angered, desirous when they desire, and ignorant when they don't know something.
No they don't. People act without awareness due to habit.  You do it.  I do it.  We all do it.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in reality. People are always aware of something. They may be distracted, they may not be focusing on what they are "doing," but it is never the case that when a person is awake they are unaware.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
These are not unconscious memories. If there is a memory, it is in consciousness.

Grigoris said:
You are talking about recalling/remembering.  I personally do not walk around with a conscious recollection of every single one of my memories during every single moment of the day.  It would be impossible to do so.  Ergo...

Malcolm wrote:
You are imagining that memories are entities that have some existence somewhere in your mind of which you are unaware, like data records.

It is not how memory works.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma, there is nowhere any discussion of an unconscious mind which performs functions below the level of awareness. This is a modern idea from modern psychology. It comes originally from the 189th century German philosopher Schiller, was taken up by the poet Coleridge, and placed into its modern usage by Freud.

Brentano rejected the idea, as well as Satre, Fromm, Searle, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
ignorant when they don't know something

Monlam Tharchin said:
Can you unpack this for me, Malcolm? My impression is that one of the many reasons samsara is perpetuated is because people DON'T know that they don't know.

Malcolm wrote:
Ignorance is actually a kind of knowing, a mistaken knowing, if you will. It is never, however, an unconsciousness state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are no such thing as unconsciousness memories.

Grigoris said:
What are you talking about dude?  Have you met and talked to trauma survivors?  Especially survivors of childhood trauma?

Malcolm wrote:
These are not unconscious memories. If there is a memory, it is in consciousness.

Grigoris said:
They don't remember shit.  Their experiences colour their current mental state and yet they are in some cases completely unaware of the experience that formed the current behaviour.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not memory.

Grigoris said:
People that suffer severe trauma can lose almost all memory of any details of what happened to them.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma, none of this is predicated on a subconsciousness. The whole idea of an subconsciousness is antithetical to Buddhadharma.

Grigoris said:
I did not mention a sub-conscious, I mentioned a lack of awareness of the basis of many of our actions.

Malcolm wrote:
You are not being precise. I am. Be precise.

What do you mean by lack of awareness? Generally, to lack awareness means to be unconscious, as in deep sleep, or under anesthesia. If you are awake, you are both conscious and aware. People do not accumulate action while they are unconscious.


Grigoris said:
Are you saying we are aware of everything in our samskara?  I certainly am not.

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by samskara? Are you referring to the skandha or the link in dependent origination.

Grigoris said:
Anders' statement is false. People are aware of what they do and they are aware of their mental life.
You have obviously never met a psychotic.

Malcolm wrote:
Many in fact, and they were all quite conscious at the time, aware of what they were doing within the constraints of their delusions.

Grigoris said:
They act as they do because of afflictions. But they are actually aware of those afflictions. When someone gets angry, they can tell you their state of mind is angry, etc.
I disagree.  Generally, when I get really angry, the last thing I think about is my afflicted mental state.  In retrospect?  I can analyse my mind state, what I felt, how I acted, etc... and call it anger.  But when I am peaking...

Malcolm wrote:
Everyone knows that they are angry when they are angered, desirous when they desire, and ignorant when they don't know something.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Wayfarer said:
the reality of unconscious and subconscious is indubitable, in my view.

Malcolm wrote:
These things do not exist, and you cannot explain their mechanism.

Wayfarer said:
bringing to light unconscious memories can be very challenging

Malcolm wrote:
There are no such thing as unconsciousness memories. If you are not conscious of a mental event, it is not a memory. That is just not how the brain works, if you like neuroscience explanations, and it definitely is not how Buddhadharma explains memory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 28th, 2018 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:


Grigoris said:
Karmic propensity, arising from past karma and it's outcomes, is (largely) not a conscious process.

Malcolm wrote:
It is entirely a conscious process.

Grigoris said:
We are 99% unaware of why we think or act like we do because we are unaware of the Tathagagarbha and karma viapkka.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we are do not know why we think or act as we do because our consciousness is contaminated with afflictions—desire, hatred, and ignorance—but none of its is subconscious or unconscious. Tathāgatagarbha is completely irrelevant here.

Grigoris said:
So it would be a lie to say that our current thoughts and actions are not (unbeknownst to us) influenced by our inherent capacity for liberation, or the effect of past karma.

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma, none of this is predicated on a subconsciousness. The whole idea of an subconsciousness is antithetical to Buddhadharma.



Anders said:
This is not the same as saying that there is a sub-conscious mind, but it is the same as saying:
There is an active complex mental life happening in all humans that most people are largely unaware of...

Malcolm wrote:
Anders' statement is false. People are aware of what they do and they are aware of their mental life. They act as they do because of afflictions. But they are actually aware of those afflictions. When someone gets angry, they can tell you their state of mind is angry, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 27th, 2018 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: How would you translate this?
Content:
Josef said:
de la kha dog dbyibs mthong na mtshan ma rig pa' gnas la gol

I have a document that translates it as:

If you see shapes and colors you have strayed from rigpa's presence.

This translation seems to be missing something to me. Any insight would be appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
If in that/in that case, you see color and shape, characteristics are a deviation in vidyā's place.

However, I need to see the preceding line as well for context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 27th, 2018 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Guruyoga with one's enemies?
Content:
climb-up said:
Hi,

First of all, my apologies, I may have asked this in the past. If I hadn't, then I had meant to,but I cannot find it through the search function.

I recently read (in "Beyond Words" by Judith Allen and Julia Lawless) that one of the Dzogchen Tantras recommends the pracatice of guruyoga with one's enemies as a practice to overcoming attachment and aversion. I've heard of this practice before.

Does anyone know what the Tantra is and if it is translated in english?

Malcolm wrote:
I have no idea what they are talking about.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 27th, 2018 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Neo-liberalism requires democracy. It does not function well in countries like Venezuela, which are anti-Democratic in the extreme. You may argue that China is anti-Democratic, but they are undergoing a liberal revolution. Fairly soon, the newly generated middle class in China is going to demand a political voice, just as in the 19th century, the newly generated middle class in Europe demanded a political voice.

DGA said:
Neoliberalism was first mobilized in Chile under Pinochet.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, not exactly. It is a complex term with a complex history.

DGA said:
It was implemented by Deng Xiaoping.

Malcolm wrote:
Sort of, but in fact China's economy is mercantilist.

DGA said:
Remember that the Reagan Revolution (neoliberalism...) was made possible in part by the disenfranchisement and mass incarceration of many, starting with Nixon.  That ain't democratic.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an unsupportable claim.


DGA said:
Finally, neoliberalism isn't a thing in Venezuela.  Chavez-ism is nothing but a nationalistic response to neoliberalism.

Malcolm wrote:
Which by definition makes it a "thing" in Venezuela.


DGA said:
Neoliberalism is an economic policy.  It doesn't have much to do with liberal cultural or social values.  It's an economic and political project.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it has every thing to do with culture and social values. This is more what I have in mind:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism_%28international_relations%29


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 26th, 2018 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
neoliberalism...

Malcolm wrote:
...has in fact lifted a billion people on the planet out of chronic poverty. It just hasn't done good things for the American working class. But America First, right? In other words, what I mostly see here is people obsessing about American jobs and American politics, but there is a much wider context to consider here.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Obviously, it is deeply a question of opinion and spin to claim neoliberal economic doctrines "lifted a billion people out of poverty", and there are people all over the world who disagree, especially those who have faced the military enforcement end of it.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/sep/19/world-bank-reports-slower-progress-on-extreme-poverty

Johnny Dangerous said:
At any rate, my criticism was leveled at it's effect on democracy specifically, not it's ability to create wealth...for someone or other. The underlying assumption is that somehow an improved economic situation (well, for some people anyway) justifies the hollowing out of the commons, and the deficit to democracy...

Malcolm wrote:
Neo-liberalism requires democracy. It does not function well in countries like Venezuela, which are anti-Democratic in the extreme. You may argue that China is anti-Democratic, but they are undergoing a liberal revolution. Fairly soon, the newly generated middle class in China is going to demand a political voice, just as in the 19th century, the newly generated middle class in Europe demanded a political voice.


Johnny Dangerous said:
I am not an isolationist, but i'm not in favor of multinational corporations subverting and reducing the power of democratically elected governments and getting to decide the direction of the world economy with little or no input from the people at he bottom who generate their wealth.

Malcolm wrote:
These why we need more democratic initiatives. Business cannot function in countries where trust is very low. The reason why businesses function well in the US, Canada, Western Europe and so on, is that laws are followed for the most part, and trust levels are very high. This is only possible in a true democratic system.


Johnny Dangerous said:
I find it really interesting that both the right and the left in this country are retreating into isolationism.
And I find it interesting how many liberals and progressives have discovered their deep and abiding love of the status quo since Trump was elected

Malcolm wrote:
The status quo was better for the world economy than this state of affairs. If things continue in this way for much longer, we are in for a hell of a world wide depression.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 26th, 2018 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Anders said:
There is an active complex mental life happening in all humans that most people are largely unaware of

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.

Grigoris said:
Yup.  It is called karma and karma vipakka...

and/or

Tahagatagarbha...

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. Tathāgatagarbha, is not a consciousness, unless you take Lanka-avatara point of view and consider it to be the ālaya-vijñāna, And even here, the ālaya-vijñana does not engage in any mental operations at all. It is merely a name for consciousness in its role of a repository of traces.

There is no "subconscious" in Buddhadharma. Derived karma are actions which result from conscious volitions— and there are no such a thing as unconscious volitions, at least, not in Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 26th, 2018 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
MiphamFan said:
There is nothing wrong with protectionism to build up your country's industry, every single nation which successfully industralized did that while those who embraced the World Bank et al's policies of free trade remain stuck to this day.

Malcolm wrote:
Protectionism amounts to taxing your own people for buying foreign goods.

MiphamFan said:
US industry has been eaten up by Asia. All the unemployed would have been factory workers in former times.

Malcolm wrote:
In the words of David Chapelle, we don't want Nikes that are made here, they would cost $3000.


MiphamFan said:
Today, with automation taking away even more manual jobs, I think it's honestly insane that anyone would support an open border policy. How many people, whether immigrants or locals, are going to be AI scientists and engineers?

Malcolm wrote:
The fact of the matter is that most US manufacturing jobs have been eliminated by automation, not by foreign labor markets.

MiphamFan said:
The crazy thing about US trade is that your tax dollars even subsidize small imports from China.

Malcolm wrote:
Global markets are global because money flows do not obey border controls, and they never have.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 26th, 2018 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
neoliberalism...

Malcolm wrote:
...has in fact lifted a billion people on the planet out of chronic poverty. It just hasn't done good things for the American working class. But America First, right? In other words, what I mostly see here is people obsessing about American jobs and American politics, but there is a much wider context to consider here.

I find it really interesting that both the right and the left in this country are retreating into isolationism.

Queequeg said:
Prioritizing the well being of oneself and one's neighbors does not amount to isolationism. Insisting that terms of international engagement be rebalanced is not isolationism. Those kinds of policies can be called a lot of things, but not necessarily isolationism.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, they are isolationist. What we are seeing is a return to the discredited and bankrupt American System, from Merriam-Webster:
: the policy of promoting industry in the U.S. by adoption of a high protective tariff and of developing internal improvements by the federal government (as advocated by Henry Clay from 1816 to 1828)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 26th, 2018 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Lung always given at time of empowerment?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In general, the lung for the sadhana is included in a given empowerment/blessing/permission rite, since the visualization read by the lama for the students is taken directly from the sadhana, as are the refuge, etc. prayers one recites in the empowerment, etc.

However, for any given deity cycle there can be several different sadhanas of different lengths with different details, so one needs generally to get the lung for these separately. But in some case, giving the lung for the longest sadhana is considered to be sufficient for the shorter sadhanas as well. It depends somewhat on the master and the tradition.

In general, however, for permission rites, there is only one sadhana, and in this case, usually the permission rite is sufficient, all one needs following that is the explanation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 26th, 2018 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
neoliberalism...

Malcolm wrote:
...has in fact lifted a billion people on the planet out of chronic poverty. It just hasn't done good things for the American working class. But America First, right? In other words, what I mostly see here is people obsessing about American jobs and American politics, but there is a much wider context to consider here.

I find it really interesting that both the right and the left in this country are retreating into isolationism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 25th, 2018 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith
Content:
nudnavda said:
Would anyone know whether there exists a translation of The awakening of faith in the Tibetan canon?
Feels strange to me that this text, though quite influential in China, Korea ,Japan etc., has not been transmitted to Tibet.
One possible explanation (to me, as a non-academic) might be the Tibetan predominant orientation towards India.
But then, this orientation has only been firmly established after the debate around 750, and this "shastra" appeared already in the 7th century.
And Zongmi, active around the time of the debate, has appreciated and promoted The awakening of faith.
Thanks for any help!

Malcolm wrote:
It was never translated into Tibetan. Most likely, it was regarded as inauthentic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 25th, 2018 at 11:27 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Nemo said:
Parties are for chumps. Get a grassroots chunk of votes and make demands. They listen real fast when you target ridings that won by less than a thousand votes. That was my secret.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, you really don’t expect anyone to take your chest thumping seriously, right?

Nemo said:
Meh, politics treated me well. The days of ministers calling me at home are over. Once you are told how the system actually works it does it's own magic. You'll figure it out eventually. Don't conflate being articulate in a very particular fashion with understanding politics. Professors rarely win elections.

Malcolm wrote:
The first mistake is thinking that any system made up of humans behaves rationally. The idea that the system is rigged is an error stemming from the first misconception. The idea  that the system is rigged is just another comforting conspiracy theory which explains away one’s feeling of powerlessness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 25th, 2018 at 8:44 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Nemo said:
Parties are for chumps. Get a grassroots chunk of votes and make demands. They listen real fast when you target ridings that won by less than a thousand votes. That was my secret.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, you really don’t expect anyone to take your chest thumping seriously, right?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 25th, 2018 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Apparently Malcolm read books where there’s no tiger. Everyone active I know of gives the tiger seat.

Malcolm wrote:
There are quite a few Drollo Cycles where there is no tiger.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 25th, 2018 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Nemo said:
You are missing that in  politics no one cares what you think.

Malcolm wrote:
"You can't do anything. You are powerless." This is all you are saying.

And it's true, you are Canadian, shaking your fist in impotent rage against a system in which you have no say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 25th, 2018 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:




javier.espinoza.t said:
Anyone know some answers?

Malcolm wrote:
As for your third question, A ti is not "ati." A ti Mu wer is Zhang Zhung language.

As for your first question, there are many Drollo cycles where he does not stand on a tiger.

javier.espinoza.t said:
Also good to know, but i was asking for dorje drollo's name. Dorje is tibetan but khrodalokottara id sanskrit, no? I learned from you that gro bo lod comes originaly from sanskrit.

Malcolm wrote:
Gro bo lod, according to Situ Panchen, is an Apabrahmsa corruption of khrodalokottara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 24th, 2018 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:



kalden yungdrung said:
So i doubt greatly that a Bön Dharmakaya aspect can become a servant in the form of a tigress for riding , but that is a Yungdrung Bön vision which does not reflect to the visions done here by the adherents of Namkhai Norbu.
Ati Muwer is still inside the Refuge Tree of Bön as such and has never left Yungdrung Bön, so if there would be power in the rituals of the tigress as Ati Muwer, that is what i greatly doubt, seen in the visions of Yungdrung Bön.


Malcolm wrote:
In this thread, the Bonpo point of view is irrelevant, as has been pointed out to you several times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 24th, 2018 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
javier.espinoza.t said:
i don't want to troll but, i have maybe a few naive questions

1) ¿why this yidam must have only one mount?

2) the yidam is riding, not stepping over. the mount is an active part, bonpos should be honored about the ChNN commentary ¿no?

and finally

3) ¿is tibetan and sanskrit is mixed in it's name? ¿why?

Anyone know some answers?

Malcolm wrote:
As for your third question, A ti is not "ati." A ti Mu wer is Zhang Zhung language.

As for your first question, there are many Drollo cycles where he does not stand on a tiger.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 24th, 2018 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Ignorant_Fool said:
Noob question:

Where can I learn more about this Buddha "Powerful Heroic Youth" (Gzhon nu Dpa' bo stobs ldan) - which I'm guessing is Shyönnu Pawo Tobden, sixth of the 12 founding Dzogchen masters? Are there any literatures that explain more about this Buddha and his nirmanakaya field?

I'm still making my way through the first few chapters - going back and re-reading them over and over. Baby steps, I guess ...


Malcolm wrote:
Nyoshul Khenpo's book on the history of Dzogchen will have some information.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 24th, 2018 at 10:15 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Wayfarer said:
David Brooks' current https://nyti.ms/2R7Chgh:
the Democratic campaign is inadequate to the current moment. It offers no counter-narrative to Trump, little moral case against his behavior, no unifying argument against ethnic nationalism. In politics you can’t beat something with nothing. Democrats missed the Trumpian upsurge because while society was dividing into cultural tribes, they spent 2008 through 2016 focusing on health care. Now that the upsurge has happened, they are still pinioned to health care.
...

It has now become evident that Republicans are better at politicizing cultural issues and Democrats are better at offering economic benefits to those who are struggling. If you think voting behavior is primarily motivated by material appeals, the Democratic strategy is fine. But if you think it’s motivated by cultural identity, a desire for respect, a sense of what’s right, loyalty to a common story, the Democratic strategy leaves a lot to be desired.

Bristollad said:
And that’s what I don’t get about American attitudes to health care, that you think it’s all about economics.  The National Health Service in the UK was instituted after the Second World War because of a sense of what’s right, a desire for respect for those who had served and suffered, because people were motivated by the desire to change the status quo and not simply return to how things were before.  It’s become a treasured part of our cultural identity that even Mrs Thatcher dared not privatise.

“The astonishing fact is that Bevan’s vision has stood both the test of time and the test of change unimaginable in his day. At the centre of his vision was a National Health Service, and sixty years on, his NHS – by surviving, growing and adapting to technological and demographic change – remains at the centre of the life of our nation as a uniquely British creation, and still a uniquely powerful engine of social justice.”  Gordon Brown talking about Nye Bevan who was the Health Minister in 1948 when the NHS started.

Malcolm wrote:
I support single payer. Always have. The HMO system was started by Nixon. It sucks.

As Kenneth Apple, a conservative economist, pointed out in the 60’s, markets only can function if people can make reasoned choices based on good information so they can make informed choices. Since this is not possible with regard to healthcare decisions, free market theory does not function in healthcare.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 24th, 2018 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:


Nemo said:
I don't think you understand how good cop, bad cop works. It means the cops collude to put on a show that makes you think one is good and the other is bad. But really they are tricking you and both work for the same boss. The good cop is only pretending to be your friend.

Malcolm wrote:
This is very lazy thinking.

Nemo said:
Keep trying that lesser evil strategy. That's not a con either

Malcolm wrote:
The greater evil is shrugging one's shoulders in apathy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 24th, 2018 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
Mantrik said:
The fact that you personally express ChNN's transmission as 'problematic', doubt its veracity, advise others to treat it with caution, not to see it as a matter of trust, etc etc,  whilst weirdly claiming not to do so,  is the problem here.  If you have received that empowerment from that 'someone who comes on and makes a claim' it is a most unfortunate path to take..

michaelb said:
Honestly, David, i find your emotional over reaction way too much. Malcolm came on here and claimed the Tiger is Ati Muwer.

Malcolm wrote:
I did indeed, based on an oral communication from ChNN.

michaelb said:
But i am interested in where stories come from and how they emerge.

Malcolm wrote:
Perfectly understandable.

michaelb said:
we NONE OF US actually know why ChNN taught it. Sure, we can speculate, but we don't really know.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we do know why-- he is a great historian, he must have came to the conclusion that the version of the yum story is rather late (it is), and he found a earlier source where A ti Mu Wer manifested as the tiger and found that account more credible than the later tradition. In other words, he believed the version he found to be more credible than later sources, including what is found in the 'Od gsal gsang mdzod cycle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 24th, 2018 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
michaelb said:
We would have to look at older texts that deal with Drolo in the various  terma traditions, and there are quite a lot of those. One thing is for sure, though,  the Drolo texts in the termas as Adzom Drukpa's and Dudjom Tersar include mention of the tigress as the consort rather than as a subjugated Bon deity.

Malcolm wrote:
The texts that refer to the tiger/tigress as a yum all seem to post-date Taksham's revelations. I can find no evidence of this in any bio of Padmasambhava, Yeshe Tosgyal, or any terma cycle that dates earlier than Taksham's bio of Tsogyal.

The collection of eight manifestations sadhana in the Northern Treasures states:

stag mo drud ma'i gdan la bzhugs. The verb "'drud pa" means to carry, so probably pregnant, as in "carrying" cubs. No mention of being a yum.

The earliest independent sadhana I know of is in the Drigung Yangzab, which again has no mention of a tigress as a yum. Yangzab was revealed in the first half of the 16th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 23rd, 2018 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:



Mantrik said:
Could ChNN have encountered Ati Muwer as a Zhang Zhung Tibetan being to which Bonpos then ascribed one set of characterisitics, and Buddhists another? I'm also wondering if there were perhaps two totally different figures of that name in Zhang Zhung.

Malcolm wrote:
It basically boils down to the difference between the Buddhist, and largely western academic view, that the Bon of the time of the imperial period, 800 and before was a completely different religion from the Bon that emerged during the 10th and eleventh century under the influence of Buddhism. This is also Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's point view. From this perspective then, the Ati Mu wer that we see pictured in the Gekhod cycle is a later innovation, only nominally related to the A ti mu wer who was an important protective deity of Zhang Zhung.

That fact that Buddhists do not accept Bonpo accounts of history in general is always going to be a sore spot between Buddhism and Bon. As far as the majority of Buddhists are concerned, modern Bon is basically an imitation of Buddhism. However, in many Bonpo ritual texts, and even some kinds of ritual texts preserved by Buddhists, such as lha bsang offerings and so on, we can see evidence of the real pre-Buddhist religion of Tibet. Most of the Buddhist worldly protectors are originally pre-Buddhist local deities, btsan, rgyalpos, and so on.

Bonpos, naturally, will be unhappy with these opinions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 23rd, 2018 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:


michaelb said:
Adzom Drukpa calls the tigress the consort.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes,in his Drollo ter cycle, the medium length sadhana refers to the tigress as the sbyor yum, "the consort for union," who is a passionate (ngar ma) bengal tigress (rgya stag). In another place, a long praise, the tigress is referred to as the "sgrol yum," the consort for liberation" who is a brilliant red, wrathful tigress. In the Kha thang literature, the union consort is generally understood to be Tsogyal, the liberation consort is generally understood to be Tashi Kyidren. In yet another place, the mount is a red and black terrifying bengal tigress with iron claws.

Overall however, the liberation consort is generally identified as Ekajati, and as in the Bio of Tsogyal, Tsogyal is identified as Ekajati, while the tigress is Kyidron. However, as I specified before, this identification arrives in a terma of the later period, and it seems that it spread widely, since Taksham's bio of Tsogyal paints a far more comprehensive lifestory of Tsogyal than other, earlier bios which make no mention of this episode at Paro Taksang.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 22nd, 2018 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
michaelb said:
I half suspect it was through historical research and textual analysis. ChNN's knowledge of how Bon and Buddhism related to one another was second to none.

Malcolm wrote:
I think the most likely explanation is that the legend of Khyidron being the consort is quite late (I can find no reference to it earlier than the Taksham bio of Tsogyal -- it is not mentioned in any earlier bio of Tsogyal-- I looked), and that ChNN was referring to earlier historical sources he had available to him that are now obscure, since as you mention, it seems no one asked him for a source, including myself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 22nd, 2018 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community Naga Rite
Content:
Grigoris said:
Does the DC practice have a torma?

Malcolm wrote:
No. It is a kind of sang with offerings of milk, etc


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 22nd, 2018 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So, we find this in the Taksham Namthar of Tsogyal:

Riding the upon the tigress, into which the girl, Khyidren had been transformed, the Guru in union with Yeshe Tsogyal remained absorbed in the samadhi of Vajrakila...
-- Lady of the Lotus Born, pg. 96

This is without doubt the source of the identifications with one of Guru Rinpoche's consorts. It's fairly late, however. Taksham Nuden Dorje was active in the latter half of the 17th century. I am failing to find any reference to this idea earlier than this one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 22nd, 2018 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
michaelb said:
Most terma traditions say that the tigress is female and one of the transformed consorts of Guru Rinpoche (usually Tashi Chidren as she has a Bhutan connection...

Malcolm wrote:
This is not certain. I have read many Drollo cycles. Actually, I have never seen any Drollo cycle explicitly identify the nature of the tigress in either a sadhana or an empowerment. Not ruling it out, I have not read everything, but apart from popular references I have seen no actual text from a terma that actually states this identification of the tigress as a consort of Guru Rinpoche. So I am going to hold you to your own standard. Show us the text.

michaelb said:
but sometimes Yeshe Tsogyal or Shakyadevi). Visualising a fully enlightened dakini has, to my mind, a different set of meanings to visualising a subjugated Bon god.


Malcolm wrote:
1. In what other sadhana have you ever seen the main deity riding the consort? If you think about it, it really does not make any sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 21st, 2018 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Vasana said:
I forgot to tune in. Was it recorded via Zoom or elsewhere?

Malcolm wrote:
I am afraid it was not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 21st, 2018 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
Unknown said:
Tersar lamas don't teach that Drolo is "the essence of Vajrakilaya".

Malcolm wrote:
Obviously, there are Tersar Lamas that do, which I have already shown.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 21st, 2018 at 12:53 PM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Total success. ChNN always gave transmissions exactly as he got them. So if you found a contradiction in Adzom’s writings, now
Is the time to put up or shut up. Why? The onus is on you because you raised the issue. Everyone else trusts their teacher.

michaelb said:
as I really can't be arsed to find where he says the tigress is a realised consort like Yeshe Tsogyal or Tashi Chidren.)


Malcolm wrote:
I’ve read the whole thing— there is no mention of such an identification.

In any case, ChNN has far greater mastery of Tibetan History and literature than any other Tibetan of his generation. It goes without saying then that his expertise in these far outstrips yours or mine. So, if he asserts that Drollo”s mount is a manifestation of Ati Muwer, he must have had adequate cause to say so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 21st, 2018 at 6:33 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to the late SHENPHEN DAWA RINPOCHE, HH Dudjom Rinoche's son by his second wife, Drollo and Putri Regpung both share Namchag Putri as the source for their further Dzogchen instructions. If you don't believe him, or you doubt my testimony about what he said to me personally, what else can I say? I asked himg very specific and detailed questions about the subject in 2005.

michaelb said:
I have no doubt that people who mainly practice DT Drolo would go elsewhere for dzogchen teachings, as there are only limited dzogchen teachings in the Drolo cycle. I would even accept that they would go to Namchak Putri as there are more extensive dzogchen teachings there. But that does not entail that therefore Drolo is "the essence of Vajrakilaya", whatever that is supposed to mea

Malcolm wrote:
Have it your way dude. I provided citations and so on, but you clearly don’t care.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 21st, 2018 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:


Nemo said:
I don't think you understand how good cop, bad cop works. It means the cops collude to put on a show that makes you think one is good and the other is bad. But really they are tricking you and both work for the same boss. The good cop is only pretending to be your friend.

Malcolm wrote:
This is very lazy thinking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 21st, 2018 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:


michaelb said:
I agree that the dzogchen teachings in the DT Drolo cycle are limited (to one short text - http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/dudjom-rinpoche/light-of-primordial-wisdom ) and that would entail looking elsewhere for more extensive Dzogchen teaching in the terma tradition, but there is no reason that can't be from Throma, for example, rather than Phurba.

Malcolm wrote:
According to the late SHENPHEN DAWA RINPOCHE, HH Dudjom Rinoche's son by his second wife, Drollo and Putri Regpung both share Namchag Putri as the source for their further Dzogchen instructions. If you don't believe him, or you doubt my testimony about what he said to me personally, what else can I say? I asked him very specific and detailed questions about the subject in 2005.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 21st, 2018 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
michaelb said:
I think we should treat the claim with care.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't. He is my guru. he was a terton. YMMV.

He maintained the same point of view from 1992 when I first heard this, to the only time he ever taught Drollo, a few years ago.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 21st, 2018 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Palden Gyatso (17th century) writes in his History of Kilaya:
At the cave of the Glorious Tiger's Lair in Paro, he engaged in the practice of Vajrakīlaya and Vajra Wrath (rdo rje khro bo) rode the tiger and liberated all māras and samaya breakers with the magic power of piercing and conquering the assembly of obstructors with his vajrakīla.

This event occurred when Guru Rinpoche was practicing Vajrakīlaya at Paro Taktsang. Thus, this is what it means to say "Drollo is the essence of Vajrakīlaya." Drollo is the personification of the khrodavajra, the vajra of wrath, "Rdo rje gro bo lod." This manifestation arises directly out of Guru Rinpoche's realization of Vajrakīlaya.

michaelb said:
Yes, but that's not how I've heard it explained in Dudjom Tersar.

Malcolm wrote:
But this is how I have heard it explained in Dudjom Tersar by more than one guru. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 21st, 2018 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
michaelb said:
This is not something I've ever heard from any tersar lama, and I've specifically asked after Malcolm made that claim. Whereas it is true that Dudjom Tersar Drolo does not have extensive dzogchen teachings, and, if you want to practice dzogchen you might have to take teachings from Namchak Putri or wherever, all DT lamas I've ever asked reject the idea that Drolo is "considered something like the essence of Kilaya." Some dedicated DT Phurba and Drolo practitioners I've asked have no idea what Malcolm was actually going on about.

Malcolm wrote:
Palden Gyatso (17th century) writes in his History of Kilaya:

At the cave of the Glorious Tiger's Lair in Paro, he engaged in the practice of Vajrakīlaya and Vajra Wrath (rdo rje khro bo) rode the tiger and liberated all māras and samaya breakers with the magic power of piercing and conquering the assembly of obstructors with his vajrakīla.

This event occurred when Guru Rinpoche was practicing Vajrakīlaya at Paro Taktsang. Thus, this is what it means to say "Drollo is the essence of Vajrakīlaya." Drollo is the personification of the khrodavajra, the vajra of wrath, "Rdo rje gro bo lod." This manifestation arises directly out of Guru Rinpoche's realization of Vajrakīlaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
lelopa said:
In jatson Nyingpos terma the tigress is Yeshe Tsogyal...

Malcolm wrote:
There is no mention at all of a tigress in the Konchog Chidu Drollo sadhana or empowerment, much less the tigress being identified as Tsogyal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:



Aryjna said:
What is the problem with the tigress being the Bon deity? You are the one perceiving it as a humiliation, that does not mean it is humiliating in the first place. In other explanations it is his own consort. It is not a servant or something like that.

kalden yungdrung said:
Guess you miss the core of the discussion here.

Bon-sku Atimuwer is a Dharmakaya aspect first and second it is in Bön never known as a tigress.

Malcolm wrote:
Ati Mu wer, for Buddhists, it is a powerful worldly god, not a Dharmakāya. As pointed-out already, Pehar is not a scorpion, but appeared as a scorpion at Samye where he was tamed by Guru Rinpoche. Norbu Rinpoche consistently has pointed out that Ati Mu wer manifested as a tigress and that Guru Rinpoche subdued Ati Muwer. You don't have to believe it, but this the tradition I received from my teacher. Likewise, you received a tradition that Tonpa Shenrab lived 18,000 years ago— something which I don't believe at all. Since Bonpos have nothing to do with Guru Rinpoche anyway, I find it difficult to understand your interest in this thread. Guru Rinpoche defeated the Bonpos, as did Milarepa, and so on. If you take a western text critical view of these things, you will find that equally harmful to Cḧo and Bon, actually, more harmful to Bon-- because the western scholarly consensus is that modern Bon is just a form of Buddhism that arose in the 11th century, around the same time as the treasure tradition.

When it comes to these conflicts, it is better that people part ways.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:
Anders said:
There is an active complex mental life happening in all humans that most people are largely unaware of

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.


Anders said:
Most of our deep-seated neuroses are rooted in childhood events,



Malcolm wrote:
Nope. But it is nice to blame our parents.


Anders said:
Talking therapy is a viable method for unlocking and working with these neuroses by exploring their origins and for making conscious much of the mental life we are typically unaware of.

Malcolm wrote:
Talk therapy is useless.


Anders said:
Free association works well in such sessions

Malcolm wrote:
Mere proliferation. And, it is not as free as you might think.


Anders said:
Dreams are, though encoded, an unfiltered information system about the actual state of affairs of our psyche.

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not.


Anders said:
Sure things like the oedipus complex, anal/oral phases etc have mostly fallen into disuse, but the gist of it, though not universal, is still highly prevalent. Psychodynamic psychotherapy is in many ways the modern descendant of Freudian psychoanalysis and is based on many of Freuds original tenets concerning the psyche and how to work with it.

Malcolm wrote:
It's all bollocks, just another way to separate fools from their money.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
michaelb said:
Not sure I follow. So because Drolo is Vajra Khroda Lokottara this connects him with Vajrakilaya because of རྡོ་རྗེ་ཁྲོ་བོས་ཞེ་སྡང་གཅོད?
Could you give me a page reference for the Paro Taktsang bit?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Dudom Rinpoche's collected works, vol 15; ppg. 115-116, beginning on the bottom of 115.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
michaelb said:
=
Regarding another characteristic that you mention, the tigress is most often described as pregnant rather than "in heat."

Malcolm wrote:
This is not correct, actually Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, a terton and another direct disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche made it very clear that not only was the tigress in heat, it was in its first heat. Not only this, but in 1992, I separately heard this from Bakha Tulku.


michaelb said:
but it's weird if idiosyncratic ideas like Ati Muwer being the tigress is the only view presented here rather than it being explained as the uncommon story it is.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not weird at all. It just does not correspond to other traditions you heard. The first time I heard the Ati Muwer identification was in 1992, personally, not in a teaching, from ChNN when I showed him a small image of Drollo which he blessed. You never know with CHNN, it might be something he learned in his dreams. One never knows.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:
michaelb said:
all DT lamas I've ever asked reject the idea that Drolo is "considered something like the essence of Kilaya." Some dedicated DT Phurba and Drolo practitioners I've asked have no idea what Malcolm was actually going on about.

Malcolm wrote:
According to the DT Drollo chronicle, while at Paro Taktsang, Guru Rinpoche manifested the vajrakhrodasamadhi, the samadhi of vajra wrath, out of which he arose in the form of Dorje Drollo. If you examine any Kilaya sadhana, you will discover a line that says, "Vajra wrath severs hatred" or something of this nature. The source of this idea of mine is the late Yeshe Phunstog, an American who was a very close disciple of Dudjom Rinpoche, and Gyatrul Rinpoche's right hand man for many years. His main practice was Dudjom Drollo. He informed me of this on the occasion Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje's bestowal of the Dudjom Drollo in Boston, Ma., 1992, when asked, Ngakpa Rinpoche confirmed this. "Gro bo lod" is a corruption of krodhalokottāra, which is why the main sadhana of Dorje Drollo in the DT begins with "Namo mahāguru vajra krodhalokottāraye."

Now, then, I know what Shenphen Rinpoche told me, and I know what Ngakpa RInpoche said, and I know what Yeshe Phuntsog said. I don't know, nor do I much care, what other Lamas say. You are free, of course, to follow anyone's opinion you find more credible than mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:


Queequeg said:
BRI is an amazing initiative.

Malcolm wrote:
Lhasa, 1959.

Nemo said:
Economics has changed a lot since 1944 and geopolitics since 1959.
"It doesn't matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice." -- Deng Xiaoping

Malcolm wrote:
The character of the Chinese government hasn't changed one little bit.

Lhasa, 1959. That is what letting the Chinese build a road to your door gets you, as Asia will find out, much to its regret.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:



fckw said:
I have long been wondering to what degree tantric deities are or are not comparable with Jungian archetypes. Saying that they are "same" is obviously not correct. Saying they are completely different somehow does not seem right neither to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Deity yogas are, fundamentally speaking, dramatized narratives of awakening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:


Anders said:
Yeah. Sure there are not as many Freudian practitioners of psychoanalysis as there used to be (though they are not as extinct as one might think either) but the fundamentals of psychoanalysis are as current as ever.

Malcolm wrote:
Psychoanalysis is bollocks. It is not scientific, it is based on the fantasies of one Austrian guy with a penchant for Greek mythology, cocaine, and cigars.

fckw said:
I love the spirit. I pointed out already above why it's quite irrelevant whether psychoanalysis is bullocks or not. It has been hugely influential on Western psychology for the better or worse. So, we have to deal with the heritage whether we like it or not.

Furthermore, it might not be so much bollocks as you are inclined to think. Or rather: the siddhas seem to have had certain types of insights more than 1000 years ago before psychoanalysis arose in Western culture. See https://books.google.ch/books?id=2av2SuI8PpoC&pg=PR13&lpg=PR13&dq=religion+philosophy+yoga+a+selection+of+articles&source=bl&ots=sLM2ArVnbX&sig=91mtwfgl8yBjf7ptxArqUG3RFhk&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJmdWR85LeAhXLKsAKHYE2BDIQ6AEwB3oECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=oedipus&f=false.

Malcolm wrote:
It's an interesting imagery, but it has nothing to do with the story of Oedipus— as you recall, Oedipus is unaware of his own identity.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:


Queequeg said:
BRI is an amazing initiative.

Malcolm wrote:
Lhasa, 1959.

Queequeg said:
Its not the road that's bad... its the dudes who come down that road... which brings me back to - I don't think we want China dominating international affairs. Give it time, that road will also bring the world into China... that's another effect.

Malcolm wrote:
Lhasa, 1959. Dream on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:


Queequeg said:
BRI is an amazing initiative.

Malcolm wrote:
Lhasa, 1959.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 20th, 2018 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I frankly see no compelling arguments that negate Hayek's basic thesis here, despite whatever faults his other work may bear.

kirtu said:
re: " The Road to Serfdom" - It's dated (it's a complete reaction to the rise of fascism in the 20 and 30's) and both Hayek's assumptions and conclusions are false.  That should be sufficient reason to reject Hayek.

Then we have actual data points that show that post-WW2 social democracy (which of course Hayek would have been skeptical of) doesn't restrict freedom and guarantees (or virtually guarantees) the social good and maximizes individual freedom (of course most Americans and all European Liberals would deny this but they share the same cultic thinking).

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
These economies you mention are not centrally planned. I still have yet to find anyone who can raise compelling arguments against Hayek's basic thesis in Road to Serfdom. Basically, what you are calling "social democracies" are, in the parlance of modern economists, termed "Coordinated Market Economies" as opposed to the US, Britain, Canada, and Australia, which are termed "Liberal Market Economies."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 19th, 2018 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: Psychoanalysis
Content:


Anders said:
Yeah. Sure there are not as many Freudian practitioners of psychoanalysis as there used to be (though they are not as extinct as one might think either) but the fundamentals of psychoanalysis are as current as ever.

Malcolm wrote:
Psychoanalysis is bollocks. It is not scientific, it is based on the fantasies of one Austrian guy with a penchant for Greek mythology, cocaine, and cigars.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 19th, 2018 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Queequeg said:
I'm not particularly down on the ideals of full socialist economies...

Malcolm wrote:
I am. Give "Road to Serfdom" a good read. See if you can poke holes in Hayek's arguments. I don't think you can.

Nemo said:
So you haven't read enough Hayek to know he was for free public healthcare, a basic income and radical free education where knowledge was completely accessible for everyone.

Malcolm wrote:
Awfully presumptuous of you. That said, a person may be mistaken in one area of their thinking without being totally mistaken in all areas of their thinking. Take yourself for example.

Nemo said:
But most of his economic theories turned out to be a bust. China and the business models of Walmart and Amazon refute them completely.

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, no. Amazon and Walmart are monopolies that need to be broken up, just as Standard Oil was broken up. Hayek, in his book, speaks of the dangers of permitting monopolies to form.

Nemo said:
As does all of Europe, Canada, Australia NZ, etc not turning into totalitarian states because they have government planning.



Malcolm wrote:
I guess you don't really get the gist of Hayek's argument, so I will reproduce it here for your edification:
The dispute between the modern planners and their opponents is, therefore, not a dispute on whether we ought to choose intelligently between the various possible organizations of society; it is not a dispute on whether we ought to employ foresight and systematic thinking in planning our common affairs. It is a dispute about what is the best way of so doing. The question is whether for this purpose it is better that the holder of coercive power should confine himself in general to creating conditions under which the knowledge and initiative of individuals are given the best scope so that they can plan most successfully; or whether a rational utilization of our resources requires central direction and organization of all our activities according to some consciously constructed “blueprint.”
Hayek, F. A.. The Road to Serfdom: Text and Documents--The Definitive Edition: Text and Documents--The Definitive Edition (The Collected Works of F. A. Hayek, Volume 2) (p. 85). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition.

Nemo said:
Road to Serfdom was reactionary to the Commies of his day trying to do top down state capitalism and calling it communism.  Even Hayek would admit it was his worst and most ideological work. Keynes is the one who economics proved was right.

Malcolm wrote:
Keynes was quite fond of Road to Serfdom, in fact, and praised it when it was published, despite the fact that the two were often at loggerheads. Keynes even wrote to Hayke in 1944:
“morally and philosophically I find myself in agreement with virtually the whole of it; and not only in agreement with it, but in a deeply moved agreement.”
Hayek, F. A.. The Road to Serfdom: Text and Documents--The Definitive Edition: Text and Documents--The Definitive Edition (The Collected Works of F. A. Hayek, Volume 2) (pp. 23-24). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition.

Road to Serfdom does little in the way of offering proposals and solutions. Indeed, one of the main criticism is of the book is that it primarily focused on right and left-wing collectivism in general.

With respect to things like universal health care, free education, and so on -- these things are not within the purview of what Hayek is defining as "central planning" or "collectivism."

So again, for those who are willing to be seduced by the term "socialism," I think a review of Hayek's little book is important. Reading it does not necessarily entail subscribing to Van Mises' Austrian School of Economics and so on. But Road to Serfdom certainly points out the deficiencies of centralized planning of whole economies:
We must centrally direct economic activity if we want to make the distribution of income conform to current ideas of social justice. “Planning,” therefore, is wanted by all those who demand that “production for use” be substituted for production for profit. But such planning is no less indispensable if the distribution of incomes is to be regulated in a way which to us appears to be the opposite of just. Whether we should wish that more of the good things of this world should go to some racial élite, the Nordic men, or the members of a party or an aristocracy, the methods which we shall have to employ are the same as those which could insure an equalitarian distribution.
Hayek, F. A.. The Road to Serfdom: Text and Documents--The Definitive Edition: Text and Documents--The Definitive Edition (The Collected Works of F. A. Hayek, Volume 2) (p. 84). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition.

This is the consequence of centralized planning of economies:
It is the price of democracy that the possibilities of conscious control are restricted to the fields where true agreement exists and that in some fields things must be left to chance. But in a society which for its functioning depends on central planning this control cannot be made dependent on a majority’s being able to agree; it will often be necessary that the will of a small minority be imposed upon the people, because this minority will be the largest group able to agree among themselves on the question at issue. Democratic government has worked successfully where, and so long as, the functions of government were, by a widely accepted creed, restricted to fields where agreement among a majority could be achieved by free discussion; and it is the great merit of the liberal creed that it reduced the range of subjects on which agreement was necessary to one on which it was likely to exist in a society of free men. It is now often said that democracy will not tolerate “capitalism.” If “capitalism” means here a competitive system based on free disposal over private property, it is far more important to realize that only within this system is democracy possible. When it becomes dominated by a collectivist creed, democracy will inevitably destroy itself.
Hayek, F. A.. The Road to Serfdom: Text and Documents--The Definitive Edition: Text and Documents--The Definitive Edition (The Collected Works of F. A. Hayek, Volume 2) (p. 109-110). University of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition.

I frankly see no compelling arguments that negate Hayek's basic thesis here, despite whatever faults his other work may bear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 19th, 2018 at 10:34 AM
Title: Re: What is the point of vajra songs?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A true vajra song is an expression of the sound of dharmata.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 19th, 2018 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Queequeg said:
This comes to another point - The US has to become confident in our way of doing things again, because that is what motivates us to help other countries develop in our mold. US influence in Latin America is a mess and the US has historically not done right in the region. There is, however, plenty of potential to do it right. That path is a whole discussion itself. One thing, to make that happen, Latin Americans have to stop this tendency to nationalize industries. Nothing turns off investment like the looming threat that everything can just be seized by fiat.

PeterC said:
You may have inadvertently chosen the wrong words there.  The world absolutely does not need other countries developing in the mold of the US. You won’t find a single other country out there that aspires to having a healthcare system, education system, justice system, infrastructure, domestic politics, racial politics, etc. that look like the US - and that was before Trump.

Queequeg said:
I guess my response is two fold.

The shortcomings are there. You're position seems to ignore all the things that are going right.

Start with the rule of law. There is no way we would have a country this big, this diverse, functioning this well if the rule of law was not as robust as it is. This not only includes enforcement of property and contract rights, the fair and peaceful resolution of disputes, peaceful and democratic transfers of power.

Malcolm wrote:
Works well for white people, not so much for others.


Queequeg said:
Not everyone has access to decent healthcare. That needs to be fixed. At the same time, when healthcare is good, its great. There's a reason why there is so much resistance to universal healthcare - because what we have is working well for many people and they myopically don't want to mess with it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, "I've got mine, screw you if you don't have yours."


Queequeg said:
Our approach to higher education, putting the financial burden on individuals instead of viewing education as the cultivation and development of the most valuable resource we have, is clearly a mistake.

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks to the GOP.


Queequeg said:
And we definitely need to address the uneven quality of primary education across the country. This is a big issue with national implications but is fundamentally a state and local matter. The Dept. of Ed. can set the pace, which they did with Common Core, but implementation is fragmented.



Malcolm wrote:
GOP again.

Queequeg said:
Infrastructure - everyone knows it needs to be fixed, but nobody wants to bite the bullet (if infrastructure is something to emphasize, Cuomo is worth considering for president. The guy has initiated and completed some of the biggest public works projects in over a generation in this notoriously sclerotic State, and it would be amazing to see that approach brought to the national level). I am optimistic we are coming around to a robust effort soon. Someone is going to discover that public works programs, when done well, are politically, wildly popular. I suspect we will have another problem when it comes time to wind down the infrastructure programs, but that's another issue.

Malcolm wrote:
As long as the GOP is in power, this will never happen.

Queequeg said:
At least we're not shooting each other in the streets over politics. That's better than a lot of places.

Malcolm wrote:
Give it time.



Queequeg said:
I left race as the last issue. We have never fully dealt with the legacy of slavery. Also part of this, I would add, we have never dealt with the genocide that marked the founding of our society on this land. We still have the myths racial superiority and inferiority, about cowboys and indians. I don't think there is a political solution to this. This is a spiritual matter. I jokingly posted a link to an article about perceiving oneness as the cure for our divisions... I actually don't think there is any other way. This unresolved injury, for everyone involved - the descendants of the perpetrators and the descendants of the victims. IMO, there's a practical reason as part of our right livelihood we're not supposed to be butchers - the act of killing leaves deep marks on the one's doing the killing - comparable to the survivors of the carnage, not to mention the death process as Buddhists understand it. Race is implicated in poverty, inequality, injustice... almost all the failures of our society implicate race. We need to do something about this... I think there is a reason why the Civil Rights movement, led by religious leaders, was so successful and would not have been as successful if it was just a secular movement.

All that is to say, you have a point, and these are not things we would want anyone to emulate. But we also have a lot of good things going on which are really really good.

Right now, we have a moron as our spokesperson who doesn't get what we do. His whole political strategy is to get people feeling bad about how things are. "Carnage" he says. That kind of talk from the Bully Pulpit is not constructive. That just exacerbates pessimism and fear and is not conducive to cooperatively trying to fix our problems. By the same token, the pessimism from the left is also unproductive past a point.

Malcolm wrote:
The GOP invented this fantasy that we are in a post-racial era, then when that fantasy failed them, they coopted far-right white identity politics.

Queequeg said:
I'm not particularly down on the ideals of full socialist economies...

Malcolm wrote:
I am. Give "Road to Serfdom" a good read. See if you can poke holes in Hayek's arguments. I don't think you can.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 18th, 2018 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Basically, no one has any f*&^ing idea of what is going on or what to do about it -- and frankly, no one ever has.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 18th, 2018 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche As...
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Then please explain the meaning of Dorje Drolo, who is sitting on a tiger.
Agree there are a lot of interpretations and some are valid and some not.
Seems to be that this emanation of Guru Rinpoche is one of the most unclear guises of him.

Malcolm wrote:
Drollo is a variant of Guru Dragpo, this evident from the raised vajra and the scorpions emanating from his left index finger.

The tiger is the Bon deity Ati Muwer.

gro bo lod is a corruption of khrodalokottara.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 18th, 2018 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Nemo said:
In Canada when I was younger our immigration was a policy of tap on/tap off. Every January our department of labour would do a labour market study and then inform parliament to tailor immigration to current economic conditions. If there was a skills shortage that area could be opened up. If students could not find summer jobs it could be tightened. If employers were exploiting skilled immigrants the tap was turned off. So the immigrants from that time found employment in their area of expertise and became incredibly successful. Employers could not trap PhD's in jobs driving cabs and making fast food. Students and the lower class would get training and could find work easily instead of competing with doctoral degree foreigners. When I was 16 during the last tap off period I could find a job in 3 hours. Tap on all the time is neoliberalism and only benefits the rich. Tap off is perhaps unrealistic with our aging populations without massive automation and wealth redistribution. To think it is either/or permanently is a level of oversimplification that does more harm than good.

Queequeg said:
Holy moly. That just makes too much sense.

Scaling it up for the US might require that those reports be bi-annual, but that sounds great.

Does Canada not do it that way anymore?

Nemo said:
When Brian Mulroney/Ronald Reagan introduced free trade he started a tap on all the time policy. Now student jobs are a fairy tale and I get my coffee from PhDs. My housekeeper is a lawyer.

Malcolm wrote:
Illegal immigrants are not competing for professional positions in the US. Q has no fear of losing his job to a migrant apple picker in Upstate NY.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 18th, 2018 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:



Queequeg said:
Open borders are simply not an option.

Malcolm wrote:
Wow, Trump really did win. Sad!

Nemo said:
Your opinion is very American and indicative of your unsophisticated political options. In Canada when I was younger our immigration was a policy of tap on/tap off. Every January our department of labour would do a labour market study and then inform parliament to tailor immigration to current economic conditions. If there was a skills shortage that area could be opened up. If students could not find summer jobs it could be tightened. If employers were exploiting skilled immigrants the tap was turned off. So the immigrants from that time found employment in their area of expertise and became incredibly successful. Employers could not trap PhD's in jobs driving cabs and making fast food. Students and the lower class would get training and could find work easily instead of competing with doctoral degree foreigners. When I was 16 during the last tap off period I could find a job in 3 hours. Tap on all the time is neoliberalism and only benefits the rich. Tap off is perhaps unrealistic with our aging populations without massive automation and wealth redistribution. To think it is either/or permanently is a level of oversimplification that does more harm than good.

Malcolm wrote:
Reality check time: Fortress America is just not an option. People will continue to stream north, depending on the conditions in their country, until such time everyone in NA has a comfortable middle class life with proper benefits, educational opportunities, and so on. Anything short of this is merely shortsighted. Canada is buffered by the US, and your southern border is not fortified, nor is our norther border. In any case, the immigration "problem" in the US is not from planes and boats, it is comes these days from disenfranchised people fleeing state and nonstate violence in Central America. NAFTA is working for Mexico, which is why illegal immigration from Mexico fell off a cliff.

Not only this, we are a nation of 350+ million, Canada has one tenth of the population of the US.

Right now, because of Trump's policies, crops are rotting in fields in Bakersfield, CA. because they cannot find farmworkers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 17th, 2018 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: Why did you choose vajrayana buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 17th, 2018 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
PeterC said:
I have no idea why, though, someone like Bezos or Dwayne Johnson would want to be president. It doesn’t pay, the job doesn’t bring that much power, and it makes your life hell unless you are a chronic amoral narcissist.
For the same reason Bloomberg ran for mayor - civic duty.



How about Mattis? In a debate with Trump he'd be able to voice some of the thoughts that flashed across his face when they had that public cabinet meeting and all those secretaries were groveling and genuflecting toward Trump. LOL
Really there’s no shortage of good candidates.  However when you exclude those who wouldn’t want the job, and those who wouldn’t be acceptable to the democrat caucus, you end up with people like Warren who will only lose.

Queequeg said:
Or Booker, or Harris, or Gillenbrand. Ugh.

I'd vote for Cuomo. I like the way he uses his brass knuckles. Debate with Trump would be a Queens grudge match, though, that would only play to Trump's game. I think the debate would have to be with a grown up who means business... or a Jewish grand father who can cause a bout of shame with stern look... Bernie

Tulsi Gabbert... though she's too young and the Hare Krishna background will bite her.

Malcolm wrote:
I'd vote for anyone who can get this mother*&^%#$ out of the Whitehouse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 17th, 2018 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:



Queequeg said:
Open borders are simply not an option.

Malcolm wrote:
Wow, Trump really did win. Sad!

Queequeg said:
Its a mistake to give Republicans all the ground on fixing immigration. "No" is not a workable policy. Immigration has been a problem needing fixing for over 2 decades. The issue has been forced. Let's deal with it.

Or are you actually suggesting that "Abolish ICE" is a feasible policy?

Malcolm wrote:
Let's just deal with reality for a change and understand that North America is one economic block. United, it would very, very powerful. No chance China would outcompete the United States of North America.

The present immigration issue is non-issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 17th, 2018 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:


Fa Dao said:
Actually if you're going by counties Trump won approximately 2,600 counties to Clinton’s 500 with 304 electoral votes to her 227, but losing the popular vote by almost 3 million. Many are now saying that we need to abolish the electoral college and go by the popular vote. The problem with this is that California, New York, and Texas would decide all future election...the rest of the country may as well not even vote at all. This is why the electoral college was established in the first place to give each state a voice. Up until this point (not including Bush/Gore) the electoral college has served the US well. And no...I did NOT vote for Trump, I voted for Bernie...but people need to face up to the facts and if they don't like things the way they are come up with a better platform than "Trump is (fill in the blank) evil, racist, mysoginistic, homophobic etc etc. as well as come up with a better candidate than Hillary.

Malcolm wrote:
All the electoral college does is disenfranchise millions of voters, acting as a force multiplier for voters in small states like Wyoming. And frankly, having California and NY determine all future elections would not be a bad thing at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 17th, 2018 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:



Queequeg said:
Open borders are simply not an option.

Malcolm wrote:
Wow, Trump really did win. Sad!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 14th, 2018 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Queequeg said:
redoing NAFTA and resetting trade with China and Europe is the right move.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an error, IMO.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 14th, 2018 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators
Content:
Queequeg said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/12/opinion/liberals-trump-midterms-2020-election.html

Bernie laid out the map. Just cut to the basics that affect all of us and hammer, hammer, hammer: medicare for all, affordable college, infrastructure paid for with taxes on the rich, fix immigration (stop with the abolish ICE crap), and adopt what's working with the economy - yeah, redoing NAFTA and resetting trade with China and Europe is the right move.

Cut the histrionics that play for spectacle and cheap thrills of the choir.

Malcolm wrote:
Bret Stephens is just the NYT's pet "conservative" op ed guy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 13th, 2018 at 6:44 AM
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Political Correctness
Content:
narhwal90 said:
There is no need to make these things a basis for entertainment.   Dogen did not attempt to make his instruction wrt cleanliness and sanitation in the zendo humorous.   From reading the various followups I get the hint that Mr Brown has a history of at least occasional awkward/unfortunate/inappropriate comments.  If he cannot learn to control his speech in his capacity of Chief Priest after (apparently) a number of events then maybe it is time for him to go learn to do so.

Queequeg said:
Well, that's the question. What is and is not appropriate in the context of teaching. No Jokes? Or just not certain kinds of jokes?

SFZC can do whatever they want. They should just say what they mean and cut this hemming and hawing. The way they handled this, though, was a clusterf*ck from the start. Everything went wrong - the complaint that prompted all this was factually wrong but they went full bore on it without any effort to investigate it until a broader meeting of abbots said due diligence was necessary before they axed the guy. Then, they were on unsteady footing because now they were committed to some course of action and unwilling to reset. By the time they got the facts and realized the complaint was not factually correct, too much crap had transpired.

Brown is not innocent here. He did tell some dumb, off color jokes that were throwaways. He seemed embarrassed by the subjects and tried to deflect with humor. I can see someone who is really sensitive getting upset... He contributed to the escalation when he went public, making sure for this to turn into an embarrassment for SFZC.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people ware just waiting to be offended.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 11th, 2018 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
http://tsegyalgar.org/localcenters/tsegyalgareast/tsegyalgareastcale/book-signing-and-talk-with-malcolm-smith/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 10th, 2018 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
jnanasutra said:
Footnote 580 in chapter 40 (The Praise) says that, “The innumerable sentient beings of the six realms of samsara are innate seeds within one’s heart center.”

Hmm, that is very interesting. I would like to understand this better. Is this literal or figurative or something else all together?

Malcolm wrote:
It refers to the bijas in consciousness that generate the appearances of the six realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 10th, 2018 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Mantrik said:
Since questioning SS Publications's wisdom is so heinous I'll leave it to those who clearly know much more about such things:

Malcolm wrote:
The request for silence refers only to posting memorials and so on of CHNN's passing. It has nothing to do with the normal day to day business of the gars. They are still running programs, hosting SMS teachers, and so on.

We don't all just stop still because our teacher has left this mortal coil.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 8th, 2018 at 7:55 PM
Title: Re: Mara experiences, temptation, possession.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Maras, in classical Dharma, are of four kinds: Mara of afflictions, skandhas, death, and the Devaputra Mara.

The last is equivalent to Kamadeva, the highest deva in the desire realm.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 8th, 2018 at 4:05 PM
Title: Re: Purifying disdain and negative thoughts towards spiritual teachers
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Completion stage practice is the best purification.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 6th, 2018 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Can a Stream Enterer believe in silly things?
Content:
Sherab said:
I was taught that according to the Buddha, the most difficult obstacle to overcome is clinging to a view.  This has made a deep impression on me as it appears to be something unique to Buddhism.  So when Malcolm made this comment:.... there are a lot of renowned Buddhist savants in history who have put forward some pretty bad arguments -- like Sapan's argument that ants lack eyes. Just embarrassing.
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29203&start=40#p461254 it caught my eye.

Then I saw this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWy1FBArO7c... and I wondered, can a stream enterer, one who is on the path of seeing, or someone beyond the path of seeing but still on the path, still believe in silly ideas.  Going by Malcolm's comment, it would seem the answer is yes.  Surprising?  Or not?

WeiHan said:
Ants do have two compounded eyes but these eyes are only good for detecting acute movements and do not have good image resolution. Perhap, Sapan is making a point that ants don't see well..

Malcolm wrote:
No, he is saying they do not gave any eyes at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 3rd, 2018 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Innately present primordial wisdom
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
I'm trying to figure out a Tibetan phrase that Khenpo Sonam of Lhündrup Chöling Dharma Center translates as innately present primordial wisdom, or innately abiding wisdom.

It sounds like 'len shes rgyas pa’i yeshe' but that doesn't make any sense so can't be right. Can anyone figure out what the actual Tibetan would be? The context was 'what we need to understand to bring forth realisation' in a Dzogchen talk.

Malcolm wrote:
Probably lhan cig skyes ye shes, sahajajnana


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 3rd, 2018 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Innately present primordial wisdom
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
I'm trying to figure out a Tibetan phrase that Khenpo Sonam of Lhündrup Chöling Dharma Center translates as innately present primordial wisdom, or innately abiding wisdom.

It sounds like 'len shes rgyas pa’i yeshe' but that doesn't make any sense so can't be right. Can anyone figure out what the actual Tibetan would be? The context was 'what we need to understand to bring forth realisation' in a Dzogchen talk.

Malcolm wrote:
Probably khan cig skyes ye shes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 2nd, 2018 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Ignorance is a cause of defiled body and mind. Aspirations and merit are the cause of a Buddhas body and mind.  Those causes are limitless therefore the series never ceases.

Astus said:
Arhats eliminated ignorance, but lack aspirations and merit, hence no cause for continuation.


Malcolm wrote:
They did not eliminate all traces and the knowledge obscuration, therefore they have not eliminated all causes.  Ergo, they have causes which sustain their continuum’s.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 2nd, 2018 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
since these arhats will not arise from this samadhi of cessation without intervention, their samadhi is for all intents and purposes, permanent (but not eternal).

Astus said:
Proposing a permanent mind is the very opposite of the doctrine of impermanent composites. But if it is interrupted, it is not permanent, nor is it the type of arhat that does not switch to the bodhisattva path.
The nonabiding nirvana of a buddha means that the continuum of a buddha never ceases, all that ceases for them is the two obscurations.
What is the cause of body and mind if not ignorance?

Malcolm wrote:
Ignorance is a cause of defiled body and mind. Aspirations and merit are the cause of a Buddhas body and mind.  Those causes are limitless therefore the series never ceases.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 1st, 2018 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:



Astus said:
If arhats of a fixed nature - i.e. no change to the bodhisattva path - are in a mental body that is permanent, then that is actually an eternalist interpretation.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the nature of any given mind stream itself is partless moments, hence, not eternal; but since these arhats will not arise from this samadhi of cessation without intervention, their samadhi is for all intents and purposes, permanent (but not eternal).

The nonabiding nirvana of a buddha means that the continuum of a buddha never ceases, all that ceases for them is the two obscurations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 29th, 2018 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:



PeterC said:
From a lineage perspective the defining feature of the Shambhala organization was the terma system it propagated.

Malcolm wrote:
The Shambhala teachings were never meant to be mixed with Buddhist teachings at all, and they were never meant to be part of a guru transmitted system. I know this because I know people who "were there" when they were originally produced and when Shambhala training was first organized. I myself did the first three levels under the old system.

Indeed, there are older Shambhala students who will, eventually, continue the old system outside the present Shambhala International. The Shambhala teachings themselves are interesting.

PeterC said:
Malcolm - could you say more about how the older system differed from what they’re doing now?

The few Trungpa students I know had a fairly conventional Kagyu training and parted company with it before the Shambhala phase - the only shambhalians I know then got involved post-OM.

Malcolm wrote:
It was literally supposed to be two separate traditions, related, but separate, As Simon said, the idea in Shambhala was an idea of warriorship as a personal path, and in addition to his termas, Trungpa drew principally from mundane paths such as the worldly Bon vehicles like Phyva Bon and also Confucianism, according to his own account. His idea was that Shambhala training was a place where anyone could go and learn the principles of meditation-based spiritual warriorship, predicated on the model of Buddhist kings, etc., without having to sign up, take refuge, and so on. In the old days, people could do the ten levels, without ever thinking that they ought to make the jump into Buddhism-- I met several such people back in the late 80's. Of course, at that time, if one made it through the ten levels, went to Warrior Assembly and so forth, one might be strongly encouraged to then proceed along the Buddhist path, but the pure Shambhalians I knew then were quite certain they were following a complete and independent path that was not Buddhism per se. Then Osel Mukpo started giving refuge names like Crystal Spear Warrior and so on, and within a few years, he merged the two systems, many people think to the detriment of the Shambhala teachings themselves.

You asked before about the Scorpion Seal teachings. Well, they are not Osel Mukpo's invention per se, but rather his commentary on the original Scorpion Seal terma of his father. But the people I spoke to about this recently really did not think they were worth much, content wise. Mukpo has no training.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 28th, 2018 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:



PeterC said:
From a lineage perspective the defining feature of the Shambhala organization was the terma system it propagated.

Malcolm wrote:
The Shambhala teachings were never meant to be mixed with Buddhist teachings at all, and they were never meant to be part of a guru transmitted system. I know this because I know people who "were there" when they were originally produced and when Shambhala training was first organized. I myself did the first three levels under the old system.

Indeed, there are older Shambhala students who will, eventually, continue the old system outside the present Shambhala International. The Shambhala teachings themselves are interesting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 28th, 2018 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Has Attained Parinirvana
Content:



Tongnyid Dorje said:
who is Khenpo Namdrol?

Crazywisdom said:
He is one of a few lamas under Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok who teaches around the world. He is based in Pharping, Nepal. He has given Empowerments and complete transmissions of Guhyagarbha and Chetsun Nyingthig and others in Alameda, CA at Orgyen Dorje Den.

Tongnyid Dorje said:
and has he recieved CNNR transmissions in full, so he can continue our Rinpoches work and lineage?

Malcolm wrote:
No, but that is not the point. The point is he is a highly qualified teacher of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 28th, 2018 at 12:47 PM
Title: Re: Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Has Attained Parinirvana
Content:
Tenma said:
Who is left in this modern world now?  One of the great masters has gone off.  We have Lama Tsultrim and Garchen Rinpoche left of the modern world from what I know, and perhaps his successor.  Is there anyone else out there left of this era?

Malcolm wrote:
Khenpo Namdrol.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 28th, 2018 at 12:31 PM
Title: Re: Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Update
Content:



SwampyFool said:
Does anyone know if we can still purify our samaya with Rinpoche while he is in this samadhi state?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 28th, 2018 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Politics and Toxicity
Content:


Queequeg said:
"part of". Not the whole. And not the whole of the bodhisattva path.

Malcolm wrote:
You did not qualify your statement, hence my observation. Had you said, " being solely concerned with purification of the self," I would not have said anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 28th, 2018 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Politics and Toxicity
Content:
Queequeg said:
This is where Nichiren takes us on a different path. This is precisely the fatalism rejected.

I understand your point but you give up on this precious human life too easily. Some will call this attachment. I'll say it's the fact that we still have opportunity to act until this body is ash.
Following up on this... looking inward and being concerned with purification of the self is Hinayana in outlook.

Malcolm wrote:
No it isn't. As Shantideva points out, a bodhisattva is obligated to protect themselves in order to help others. Purification is part of that self-protection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 27th, 2018 at 11:22 AM
Title: Re: Gil Fronsdal - The Bodhisattva and the Arhat: Walking Together Hand-in-Hand
Content:





kirtu said:
...there are actually an infinite variety of Buddhadharma paths

Malcolm wrote:
There are really only two: the paths based on sems (citta), and the path based on ye shes (jñāna).

kirtu said:
That's true but I am referring to the forms taken within the paths.  Also within the discussion of the apparent dichotomy of the  Bodhisattva and Arhat paths this statement is irrelevant since both ultimately result in the yeshe path.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
The paths based on citta are variegated, since the term citta is derived from citra, to be variegated. But the path based on ye shes is the sole vehicle. The point of view of the paths based in mind are predicated on cause and effect. The path based on ye shes is beyond cause and effect.

Of course, when one is functioning from the point of view of mind, and not ye shes, then all the usual warning labels apply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 27th, 2018 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: Gil Fronsdal - The Bodhisattva and the Arhat: Walking Together Hand-in-Hand
Content:
Virgo said:
I find it interesting that he redifined the terms to suit his own lack of acceptance or lack of understanding of them, and then set up straw-man caricatures of the traditional definitions to make his own definitions seem more credible or viable.  But I am not surprised.  I knew he was going to do that the second I read the title.
Rely on the meaning, not on the words;

kirtu said:
...there are actually an infinite variety of Buddhadharma paths

Malcolm wrote:
There are really only two: the paths based on sems (citta), and the path based on ye shes (jñāna).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 27th, 2018 at 6:51 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
ChNN is no further away from you than the recognition of your own primordial state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 26th, 2018 at 9:02 AM
Title: Re: Disassembling Dharma Books
Content:
Motova said:
Is there anything wrong with disassembling dharma books to scan them?

Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
It is like killing sentient beings, if you can restore them whole and perfect, no problem. But if you can't....


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 26th, 2018 at 8:51 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Miroku said:
I had 2 chances to go to Merigar .... I guess I should have gone to it ... yet my life prevented me from going there ... I just cannot leave my boyfriend and go away for a week, Man, sometimes it would be easier to be single.

Malcolm wrote:
If it interferes with Dharma, lose the boyfriend. He is not worth it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 25th, 2018 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


javier.espinoza.t said:
GY of GD appears in the secondary practice booklet, but truly there isn't a better GY, it should be the main <3

Mantrik said:
Guruyoga is Guruyoga, surely. You are expressing an individual preference.......or less kindly, a limitation. Mine is Nangsi Silnön

Malcolm wrote:
There is without doubt a specific reason we have been asked to do guru yoga of white A. I am sure this instruction comes from Rinpoche personally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 25th, 2018 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Finney said:
Rec'd via email:


I admit I don't know if this is good news (Rinpoche is recovering) or sad news (sent home to be comfortable during final hours).

Back to Guru Yoga...

Malcolm wrote:
We have all been asked by the family to maintain silence on social media platforms from this day forward apart from official news such as you have shared.

Finney said:
Malcolm, are you saying that I shouldn't have shared this email (info from Merigar)? Didn't think it was different from other official emails shared here, but if it was inappropriate I'll remove it asap.

Malcolm wrote:
Finney, if you read carefully, what I said was that apart from communications which you shared, we should maintain silence, according to a request that can be found in the mirror on Facebook— so no worries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 25th, 2018 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Finney said:
Rec'd via email: Cari tutti,
il Maestro è arrivato questo pomeriggio alle ore 17,30 alla sua residenza di Gadeling, Merigar.
Le pratiche continuano regolarmente come da programma.

Dear all,
our precious Master arrived at 5:30 pm. at his residence at Gadeling, Merigar.
We continue to perform the practices as programmed.
I admit I don't know if this is good news (Rinpoche is recovering) or sad news (sent home to be comfortable during final hours).

Back to Guru Yoga...

Malcolm wrote:
We have all been asked by the family to maintain silence on social media platforms from this day forward apart from official news such as you have shared.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 25th, 2018 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Only thirteen buddhafields?
Content:
jhanapeacock said:
In mahayana there is an inmeasurable number of nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya buddhafields, but in dzogchen there are only thirteen buddhafields (zhing khrams) is this correct?

Malcolm wrote:
There are thirteen buddhafields apart from this one where Dzogchen teachings may be found. This is the meaning. It is meant to point out how rare Dzogchen teachings are. Out of the countless buddhafields in the universe/s, there are only thirteen buddhafields that possess these teachings, and ours is one of them.

Aryjna said:
Are the names of these buddhafields and any more information available somewhere?

Malcolm wrote:
This information can be found in the sgra thal gyur.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 24th, 2018 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Only thirteen buddhafields?
Content:
jhanapeacock said:
In mahayana there is an inmeasurable number of nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya buddhafields, but in dzogchen there are only thirteen buddhafields (zhing khrams) is this correct?

Malcolm wrote:
There are thirteen buddhafields apart from this one where Dzogchen teachings may be found. This is the meaning. It is meant to point out how rare Dzogchen teachings are. Out of the countless buddhafields in the universe/s, there are only thirteen buddhafields that possess these teachings, and ours is one of them.

Dorje Shedrub said:
Is there significance for the specific number of 13?

DS

Malcolm wrote:
None of which I am aware.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 24th, 2018 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama, visiting the Netherlands, gets tough with abusers
Content:
Queequeg said:
Right now, young people are not showing interest in Buddhism.

Fortyeightvows said:
You really think that’s true? I’m not sure about all of that.

Queequeg said:
It's documented that young people in developed countries show decreasing levels of interest in religion across the board. Anecdotally, it's commonly observed that Western sanghas are graying. Are there some where this is not so? We need to take note of these.

Malcolm wrote:
This is mainly the case in the US (West coast being a notable exception), England, etc. Young people in China and Europe are deeply enthusiastic for Dharma.

It is mainly in English-speaking countries where Dharma communities seem to be graying, and ironically, English is now the primary lingua franca of Buddhist studies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 24th, 2018 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Only thirteen buddhafields?
Content:
jhanapeacock said:
In mahayana there is an inmeasurable number of nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya buddhafields, but in dzogchen there are only thirteen buddhafields (zhing khrams) is this correct?

Malcolm wrote:
There are thirteen buddhafields apart from this one where Dzogchen teachings may be found. This is the meaning. It is meant to point out how rare Dzogchen teachings are. Out of the countless buddhafields in the universe/s, there are only thirteen buddhafields that possess these teachings, and ours is one of them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 24th, 2018 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism
Content:
Queequeg said:
Following metaphors can get you wet, too.

kirtu said:
What??? Porque?

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Metaphors can be misleading, like misreading GPS machines.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 22nd, 2018 at 7:41 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 21st, 2018 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:



Aryjna said:
I mean that the individual meanings of the the two parts trul and khor do not seem to be able to lead to a meaning of 'posture'. Unless this is often not a factor in Tibetan.


Malcolm wrote:
The Sanskrit equivalent is yantra. Thus it is an inept translation.



Aryjna said:
Thanks, I am just asking out of interest about how this generally works in Tibetan, as I am looking into the language more lately.

Malcolm wrote:
A འཕྲུལ་འཁོར་is a machine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 21st, 2018 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Aryjna said:
Is there some reasoning in the meaning based on the two parts of the word in such cases, or is it mostly unrelated?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a bad translation.

Aryjna said:
I mean that the individual meanings of the the two parts trul and khor do not seem to be able to lead to a meaning of 'posture'. Unless this is often not a factor in Tibetan.


Malcolm wrote:
The Sanskrit equivalent is yantra. Thus it is an inept translation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 21st, 2018 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:



Aryjna said:
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/sprul_pa%27i_%27khor_lo Looks like it may mean navel center or something related in this case after all

Malcolm wrote:
It means machine, device, posture, etc.

Aryjna said:
Is there some reasoning in the meaning based on the two parts of the word in such cases, or is it mostly unrelated?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a bad translation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 21st, 2018 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:



Aryjna said:
I hadn't noticed that trulkhor means magical wheel. It sounds much cooler now.

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn't.

Aryjna said:
http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/sprul_pa%27i_%27khor_lo Looks like it may mean navel center or something related in this case after all

Malcolm wrote:
It means machine, device, posture, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 20th, 2018 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
The Primal Rosary of Precious Stones:
A Long Life Prayer for His Eminence Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoché
༧སྐྱབས་རྗེ་ཆོས་རྒྱལ་ནམ་མཁའི་ནོར་བུ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ལ་བརྟན་གསོལ་རིན་ཆེན་དང་པོའི་ཕྲེང་

Aryjna said:
I hadn't noticed that trulkhor means magical wheel. It sounds much cooler now.

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 18th, 2018 at 12:45 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Ignorant_Fool said:
This looks amazing, and I would love to get it, but is it something a fledgling practitioner would be able to comprehend?

Malcolm wrote:
You will understand somethings and not others. But if you have Dzogchen transmission then you should have this book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 16th, 2018 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"Dear friends,
we would like to inform you that the health of the Master is in decline due to natural causes. We are not aware of the time left to him. The Master has a peaceful appearance and does not feel pain. - Namkhai family"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 15th, 2018 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: Dungse Rigzin Dorje Rinpoche
Content:



kirtu said:
A mutual friend told me that the issue was that DHS classified all the people  (the monks and nuns) who are with him in Assam as potential terrorists.  The issue being that DHS has simply decided to blanket classify people from Assam in this way.

If it were merely an issue of not being able to travel with another person then that could be remedied (although he might not want to do that since it would mean leaving his monastics in India).   He could travel with a group of western students.

Unless you mean that the US is insisting that he literally has to travel completely by himself - which is not a travel restriction I have ever heard of.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
I am very familiar with the matter. When the Obama Admin came in, they placed heavy restrictions in religious workers visas, contra the Bush era policies which were surprisingly forgiving. Thus, they would not approve the Dungsey Rinpoche's chod group, and would issue no more than two visa. One person beside himself was not sufficient for the healing chod tour, and the legals fees were mounting into the thousands. Thus, they dropped the issue.

amanitamusc said:
What was up obama's ass? Just making nice with china?
I know he canceled meetings with HHDL.
I noticed i saw more of my overseas Lama's when bush was in and when
obama came in the doors were closed.

Malcolm wrote:
Hillary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 15th, 2018 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Dungse Rigzin Dorje Rinpoche
Content:
kirtu said:
Unfortunately he is currently forbidden from teaching in the United States (and has been for years) because of issues that DHS has with classifying people who live in Assam.

Hopefully he has been able to teach elsewhere in the past few years.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is because they won’t let him travel with more than one other person.

kirtu said:
A mutual friend told me that the issue was that DHS classified all the people  (the monks and nuns) who are with him in Assam as potential terrorists.  The issue being that DHS has simply decided to blanket classify people from Assam in this way.

If it were merely an issue of not being able to travel with another person then that could be remedied (although he might not want to do that since it would mean leaving his monastics in India).   He could travel with a group of western students.

Unless you mean that the US is insisting that he literally has to travel completely by himself - which is not a travel restriction I have ever heard of.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
I am very familiar with the matter. When the Obama Admin came in, they placed heavy restrictions in religious workers visas, contra the Bush era policies which were surprisingly forgiving. Thus, they would not approve the Dungsey Rinpoche's chod group, and would issue no more than two visa. One person beside himself was not sufficient for the healing chod tour, and the legals fees were mounting into the thousands. Thus, they dropped the issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 15th, 2018 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'
Content:
Astus said:
The current issue of the 'migrants' looks very much like the same old racist and antisemitic fear mongering. It is unfortunate if the Dalai Lama has little understanding of what slogans like 'X-land belongs to X-people' means to the majority.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 15th, 2018 at 1:59 PM
Title: Re: Dungse Rigzin Dorje Rinpoche
Content:
kirtu said:
Unfortunately he is currently forbidden from teaching in the United States (and has been for years) because of issues that DHS has with classifying people who live in Assam.

Hopefully he has been able to teach elsewhere in the past few years.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is because they won’t let him travel with more than one other person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 15th, 2018 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This kind of essentialism results in holocausts.


cyril said:
You are assuming that because people think in a certain manner (or within certain conceptual frameworks) in our era that they did so 5000 years ago.  Well they don't.
I am not assuming anything. I gave you the example of Herodotus but you chose to trivialize it. Here is the quote in the context:

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/perseus-cgi/citequery3.pl?dbname=GreekFeb2011&query=Hdt.%208.144.2&getid=1

”...and next the kinship of all Greeks in blood and speech, and the shrines of gods and the sacrifices that we have in common, and the likeness of our way of life...”

This is a 400 BC Greek talking about Hellas and about Greeks as a whole. To me, it shows awareness of a Pan-Hellenic national identity despite the diversity within. To you, it looks like a possible hidden political agenda. Oh, well..
You are trying to convince me that there is a single European identity and your only evidence of this is that there are various national identities?  I am giving you ample examples of how even the idea of a national identity is false.  Where is your evidence for a unified European identity?  NOWHERE
Likewise, there is kinship of all Europeans in the shared Greco-Roman foundation of their cultural heritage, Enlightenment values, Christian values, democracy, individual freedom and reason. There are also other things which, unfortunately, I cannot quite put my finger on; the fabric of the European identity is intricate and often very subtle. Nevertheless, they tie together the various European cultures together despite the obvious diversity and make the European identity being more than a social construct or the sum of the various national identities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 15th, 2018 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It should be obvious that given we humans populate a tiny little planet floating in vast space, arguing that human beings can really be divided into nationalities is an incredibly pre-modem and regressive idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 14th, 2018 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama says 'Europe belongs to Europeans'
Content:
Grigoris said:
None of this answers the question as to why anybody should care what HHDL's view on European migration policy is.

Norwegian said:
His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a major international figure. That usually means whatever such a person says or does, is viewed with interest. He is a Nobel Laureate (the Nobel Peace Prize, which he received back in the days when that prize meant something).

Moreover he is a major Buddhist teacher, so certainly he has the attention from those who are interested in, sympathetic with, or actually are Buddhists (certainly those who are Indo-Tibetan Buddhists). He is a refugee himself, since 1959, and is considered a leader of his people, so he certainly has knowledge and experience of how it is to be a refugee. Then, from the point of view of Vajrayana itself, he certainly is the guru of many gurus (that we have), so that's one thing. Another is that he's considered to be an emanation of Avalokiteshvara himself.

I am sure there are many more factors as to why anybody are interested in his views on either this or that. And so yes, these things explain the why-question of yours above.


Malcolm wrote:
The reason why HHDL states this is obvious: he wants Tibet for Tibetans. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. Otherwise everything that Grigoris points out is absolutely correct. Nationalism is the wrong way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 14th, 2018 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Signs from the Dakinis?
Content:
Void said:
Until then, I prefer to rely on my superior intelligence and understanding (repeatedly scientifically proven IQ near 160) and on my extensive interdisciplinary studies (mostly dzogchen and mahamudra texts) and my personal practice efforts.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the reason no one takes you seriously. You do not have transmission. You do not have a guru. You have not made a relation with the dharmapālas. So no one is willing to talk to you about these recondite matters. In any case, forums like these are not very suitable for discussing such matters.

FYI, the body of light is an option, not a certainty, and as the Buddha pointed out in the Vajracchedika, and as Rongzom Pandita cites, if you think you can see a tathāgata by virtue of their signs, you are very mistaken.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 14th, 2018 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Longchenpa's refuge prayer
Content:
Spelare said:
Does anyone know the source text for the following refuge prayer attributed to Longchenpa?  Did he compose it or was it received from an earlier source?  I've transcribed it from a recording of Adriano Clemente, who was taught it by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche (sorry for any transcription errors):

Longchen Rabjam said:
Namkhai nassu namkha khangwa yi
Lama yidam pawo khandro
Tso sangye chö dang pha bai gendün la
Da sum dro kun ku be kyab su kyi

Spelare said:
Also, does anyone have access to an English translation?  I understand bits of it but not the whole thing.  Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
We migrating beings all go for refuge
to the guru, deva, viras, ḍākinīs, and so on, 
and to the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Noble Sangha,
filling the sky in the abode of space

The official DC translation can be found in the Precious Vase.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 11th, 2018 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: What Shamatha tradition best prepares one for Dzogchen?
Content:



dharmafootsteps said:
It sounds to me like ChNN is probably quite similar in this respect to TUR. Does anyone know if that's the case?

Aryjna said:
At first I thought ChNNR's approach may be a bit different because I didn't know what other teachers do, but the more I learn about other teachers, those who teach Dzogchen at least so Alan Wallace may differ because he comes primarily from a different background, the more it seems they all have the same approach, first the DI and then you practice for purification/accumulations and for clarifying doubts. It seems even the Kadampa masters, who are often mentioned as mainly sutra practitioners, did the same thing according to Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche:

The Heart Treasure of the Enlightened Ones said:
According to the pith-instructions of the precious Kadampa teachers, you are first introduced to the nature of the mind, absolute bodhichitta, and you then cultivate compassion for all beings, relative bodhichitta.

Malcolm wrote:
Early Kadampas were all from Nyingma families...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 11th, 2018 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?
Content:


MiphamFan said:
What about that yoga history book which said that sun salutations are actually relatively modern and adapted from some exercise drills by some Maharaja IIRC?

I guess the historical context isn't that important, but it's still a good, healthy movement?

Malcolm wrote:
IMO, it is a very good way to protect your back, knees and do prostrations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 10th, 2018 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: The Three Yanas, Ringu Rinpoche
Content:
philji said:
This idea of checking out a teacher for 8 or 12 years is fine and dandy... but time is running out.. Do we really have the luxury of time...????

MiphamFan said:
If you meet the wrong teacher you could spend kalpas in vajra hell, so 12 years is little compared to that.

Of course this is just speaking in theory.

In practice, with the internet and social media it is harder for bad teachers to continue on without backlash, this is one good thing. You can crowdsource your 12 years.

Malcolm wrote:
Sapan points out that while this may be ideal, it is often not practical.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 10th, 2018 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:
DGA said:
Put in more banal terms, would you argue that liberal democracy and fascism are equally enlightened?  I would not, and for this reason, I would say that failures to try for enlightenment in society (we can debate that definition) also end in tears.

Malcolm wrote:
Liberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.

Coëmgenu said:
We are talking about "corporations as people", right?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I had in mind the 13th amendment, the 14th amendment, etc., recognizing the rights of women to vote, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, September 10th, 2018 at 12:08 PM
Title: Re: Receiving both Buddhist & Bön Dzogchen teachings?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The main problem you will have is reconciling the mutually exclusive historical viewpoints of Bon and Buddhadharma. Otherwise, there is no conflict.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 9th, 2018 at 1:15 PM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:



DGA said:
Put in more banal terms, would you argue that liberal democracy and fascism are equally enlightened?  I would not, and for this reason, I would say that failures to try for enlightenment in society (we can debate that definition) also end in tears.

Malcolm wrote:
Liberal Democracy never aimed at creating an enlightened society at all. It aimed a creating a society that was based on the recognition of common rights of human beings. Fortunately, its premises allowed the notion of who was a human being to expand, and thus under Liberal Democracy, rights have been increasingly extended towards those whose rights were not recognized under its original formulation. But the creation of an enlightened society was never at its base. Fascism and Socialism, on the other hand, have pretensions towards transcendence and enlightenment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 9th, 2018 at 12:48 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
smcj said:
Sangye Khandro

Malcolm wrote:
Sangye Khandro


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 9th, 2018 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:



kirtu said:
So Changchub Dorje's commune ended in tears due to the inappropriate actions on their part or Changchub Dorje's inappropriate actions?

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Changchub Dorje's village was not an attempt to create an enlightened society. It was just a small community gathered around a teacher, and no one kew he was a teacher. Everyone thought he was a doctor. His community still exists, it is called Khampa Gar mow.

kirtu said:
Everyone (or every adult) in his commune knew he was a teacher.  It was a de facto attempt to create an enlightened society because Changchub Dorje was trying to help everyone attain enlightenment (acknowledging that the language presents a barrier here).  I had thought that basically everyone there took rainbow body?  I was not aware that in some way it still continues (certainly not as a Dzogchen community though).

At any rate I presented a valid counterexample even though you will refuse to put the label on it so I think any reasonable person will have grounds to conclude that "attempts to create enlightened societies" do not always end in tears.  Just most of the time.  Because the teachers are not enlightened in some form and/or because the students are not capable of following through.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
we will agree to disagree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Attempts to create enlightened societies always end in tears.

kirtu said:
So Changchub Dorje's commune ended in tears due to the inappropriate actions on their part or Changchub Dorje's inappropriate actions?

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Changchub Dorje's village was not an attempt to create an enlightened society. It was just a small community gathered around a teacher, and no one kew he was a teacher. Everyone thought he was a doctor. His community still exists, it is called Khampa Gar mow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The behavior of Harvey Wienstein, etc., and Osel Mukpo, Sogyal, Trungpa, Joshu Sasaki, Eido Shimano, etc., was aided and abetted at all levels by people who depended upon them for power, money, or status, or all three.

Grigoris said:
You forgot about Patriarchy. That had a role to play as well.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I didn't forget. Adding it was too pat, too easy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 2:12 PM
Title: Re: Neo nazi's march in DC
Content:
Queequeg said:
The Tea Party movement showed what can be done...

Malcolm wrote:
with massive funding from the Kochs, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 2:11 PM
Title: Re: Ratna Lingpa Vajrakilaya - Essence of Concerned Activity
Content:
TrimePema said:
"Flesh colored Dogyal in the thigh"

Can somebody please help me out on this one? Is this THE Dogyal? What should we do about that...

Has anybody asked Garchen Rinpoche or any other lamas about this? Been looking for an answer to this since I first did the practice - your input would be a huge help.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not Dol rgyal, it is 'Dod rgyal, aka Takkiraja.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 1:39 PM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:
gb9810 said:
I don't remember hearing anyone claiming Harvey Weinstein was displaying crazy wisdom.. his victims may have been silenced/stayed silent for various reasons but I doubt any of them felt his exploitation was a display of kindness for their benefit.    That to me differentiates cult vs. not.   (Of course cultish behavior is not mutually exclusive with the presence of abuse of power of various forms..)

Malcolm wrote:
"Crazy wisdom" is exclusive to Tibetan Buddhism. It was a term coined by Trungpa. It is pretty modern.

The idea that one must tolerate unusual behavior from one's guru is well established. What is not so well established is that converts tend to bring a certain fanaticism with them into the new faith to which they have converted. Is this idealism exploited? Yes, but this is little different than new recruits in an army who suffer all kinds of abuse at the hands of the powers that be to turn them into malleable foot soldiers. So, I still argue that power and its abuse is the real issue here, and claims of "Cultishness" are a distracting red herring.

It is not surprising at all that Trungpa created an army, the Vajra Guard, and that it remains the chief expression of Shambhala International's will to power. Attempts to create enlightened societies always end in tears.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 12:45 PM
Title: Re: Are sun salutations a good substitute for Tibetan-style long prostrations?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes

MiphamFan said:
Malcolm said this once long ago.

Malcolm, do you still agree with this?

I have on and off knee and calf issues and the "long" prostrations that Tibetans do make me uncomfortable. In particular I find the "sliding out" from a kneeling position rather problematic. The sun salutation way is to jump backwards, into a pushup position, similar to burpees, which seems much healthier to me.

I never had a teacher who was really strict about prostrations of course, in fact, my teachers (besides ChNN of course) gave alternatives like even sitting prostrations if I do ngondro, although they said I could try doing some prostrations and see how it goes.

I am thinking of starting a complete ngondro starting next year, once I make a career change and complete the current practice accumulations I am doing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 10:00 AM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:
Queequeg said:
What is sad about all this to me is that these people must have really wanted to connect with Dharma to put up with this crap.

Their sincere efforts are not lost, I hope. The prognosis for the charlatans is dire. In the least they should be pariahe for the rest of their lives. The good old Brahma Penalty - ostracism.

Malcolm wrote:
There has always been room for Mahāyāna teachers to engage in conduct that seems to not conform to lower Buddhist ethics. Of course, some people use this laxity as an excuse to indulge their afflictions. This is not the intention of the situational ethics of Mahāyāna.

We should not differentiate this kind of behavior engaged in by religious leaders from the same behavior committed by people in secular settings. When we find the same kind of behavior happening in corporate settings, we don't label such behavior "cult behavior." We call it what it is: abuse of power.

The behavior of Harvey Wienstein, etc., and Osel Mukpo, Sogyal, Trungpa, Joshu Sasaki, Eido Shimano, etc., was aided and abetted at all levels by people who depended upon them for power, money, or status, or all three.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 8:54 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
Ogaf said:
And this was the last time you all discussed this:

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=16819&hilit=Pema+Khandro%5Burl ][/url]

O

DGA said:
I'm confident her group is having more fun than we are at this very moment.  I hope they are.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, no doubt. Of course, being a serious teacher isn't any fun at all. So I hope she is not having too much fun.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 7:59 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
SangyeYeshe said:
Nice work, Malcolm! Got the two volume set today. Looks great!

--> Nova

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks Nova!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:


florin said:
Indeed in order to have realisation one needs to rely on a lineage.Whether that realisation will manifest in this life or sometime in future lives is unknown at this point.But if it manifests in the future lives it may manifest outside of a lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
And such a person is called a pratyekabuddha, and such persons do not teach, since they manifest in a time and a place where there is no extant lineage of Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
These qualifiers do not prove anything.

Grigoris said:
In which case there is no reason why I should listen or trust you since your qualifications mean nothing at all?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, unless you have ascertained what I say to be reliable through your own direct perception, there is no reason to take what I say merely because I have a title.


Grigoris said:
They pick the teachers with whom they have karma, qualifications actually have very little to do with it.
I disagree.  My habitual tendencies makes me seek out teachers with credentials and qualifications.  So their qualifications are a conditioning factor.

Malcolm wrote:
You have accepted the testimony of a bunch of people of whom you have no direct knowledge of their actual inner qualities. You decided to trust someone's testimony based on hearsay, and nothing more. Now then, it may be the case you have decided that your present teacher has the correct qualifications to be your teacher, but that is your decision and is based solely on your own authority.


Grigoris said:
Nothing we say about this woman has any relevance to her or her students.
That goes without saying, I have seen people drawn to all sorts of quackery.  No, I am not saying she is a quack, just saying...

Malcolm wrote:
Since you like authority, ask your teacher.


Grigoris said:
She found a Tibetan lama to back her, learned Tibetan, gained academic credentials, etc.
Generally speaking, that is exactly how one goes about becoming a lama.  If she has done this (which apparently she has) then she IS a genuine teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
She is a genuine teacher for some people, a fraud for others, or so they say.


Grigoris said:
...and learning...
I think that is what we have been talking about the whole time.  A teachers credentials and qualifications are based on their learning.

Malcolm wrote:
It seems that in some circles endorsements are more important than personal qualities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Independent investigation confirms “physical, sexual, emotional abuse” by Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:
Sherab Rigdrol said:
Wow... I'm on the physical abuse part of the report. What a piece of shit....

Malcolm wrote:
Makes one view backscratchers in a different light.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Is lineage enough?
Content:
Grigoris said:
A Mahasiddha, for example, is not bound by conventional models of moral discipline.

Malcolm wrote:
I doubt the courts will agree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
However if a student swears by their benefit, what can I say?

Malcolm wrote:
In the end, it all comes down to what oneself accepts and rejects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 8th, 2018 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And yet, even so, there are still lamas who think ChNN is totally wrong and not qualified.

Grigoris said:
And there are people that think the Pope is infallible.  So what?

The point is that he was recognised by the head of a lineage and received traditional training from members of recognised lineages.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN was actually first recognized by his  uncle as the reincarnation of Adzom Drukpa. He was also recognized as the reincarnation of a Sakya Khenpo. The 16th Karmapa recognition came much later. And, as we know, his appointment by the 16th Karmapa to teach in Italy did not render ChNN immune from intense criticism within the Tibetan ecclesiastical hierarchy, criticism which continues to this day.

Grigoris said:
The point is that YOU chose your teachers on the basis of these types of qualifiers, yet here it seems you are telling people that these qualifiers are not actually valid.  You are tacitly advocating that people ignore valid qualifiers and follow whoever they feel is fit.

Malcolm wrote:
These qualifiers do not prove anything. I know people recognized by this or that lineage head, trained in the great monasteries, who are absolute frauds and scoundrels in every respect.

But that is not my point. For example, no one recognized Ngala Changchub Dorje as a great terton until decades after he passed away. Everyone thought he was just a doctor. It was only after he attained rainbow body that people took note.

Indeed, in a real sense, most Lamas in traditional Tibet lacked these very qualifications that are so prized in the West. Even so, if these qualifications were not so prized in Tibet as well, people would not feel the need to pester high lamas into recognizing their children as Yangsi X and Tulku Y.

Grigoris said:
That's pretty rich coming from an Acharya.

Malcolm wrote:
You still don't get it. Students make the teacher. We see this over and over again. Gather enough students, someone will grant you recognition. We have seen this among westerners several times already.

Grigoris said:
The fact that people choose unqualified teachers merely underlines the need for reliance on lineage.  It does not annul it.

Malcolm wrote:
They pick the teachers with whom they have karma, qualifications actually have very little to do with it.

If you do not have the karma to study with this or that "highly qualified" lama, no matter what you do, you will never be able to attend their teachings. It is sort of like the conception of a child. If the gandhavara, the bardo being, does not have proper karma with a certain set of parents, there is no basis for a conception.

Nothing we say about this woman has any relevance to her or her students. She found a Tibetan lama to back her, learned Tibetan, gained academic credentials, etc. In order to question her credentials, you have to question his, and so on and so forth.

In the end, it all comes down to what oneself accepts and rejects.

The tantras do not say, "Examine master so and so for his lineage recognitions, endorsements, associates, etc." What do they say? They mention nothing about lineage heads, etc.  They only mention the personal qualities and learning of the prospective master in question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
I know having met great teachers you really 'can't just believe they are only involved in murky politics "working with circumstances" but that they do have the wisdom eye to know who is who, easily at that.

Malcolm wrote:
I love the former Penor Rinpoche, have taken teachings from him, etc. However, there is no way that I ever believed nor do I now believe that Osel Mukpo is reincarnation of Ju MIpham. Just so we are clear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 11:49 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
So how exactly will students receive the lineage practices independent of the lineage masters? Of course we know there are individuals who give wangs who are not authorized to.

Unless if one if fortunate to encounter a teacher like Dudjom lingpa, Exercise extreme caution.

Malcolm wrote:
One of my teachers,  ChNN, was considered “unauthorized” for decades, What changed?

Sonam Wangchug said:
The 16th gyalwang karmapa recognized Rinpoche when he was a child, as a wisdom emanation of Shabdrung ngawang rinpoche, did he not?

Rinpoche had traditional training and studied with many eminent lineages holders of his time, did he not?

That's not a teacher who is coming out of no where without the proper recognition and training.


Malcolm wrote:
And yet, even so, there are still lamas who think ChNN is totally wrong and not qualified.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 11:34 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:



Sonam Wangchug said:
Well if the said teacher has a "lineage" then there will be a "lineage-head' or several lineage holders to refer to..

Here are a few

Minling tradition Minling trichen dungse dalha rinpoche, Minling khandro rinpoche

Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom yangsi sangye pema zhepa rinpoche, Dudjom yangsi tenzin yeshe dorje. Dungse Garab dorje rinpoche, Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche, Namgyal dawa rinpoche,

Payul Nam cho: Karma kuchen rinpoche, Mugtsang rinpoche, Gyangkhang Rinpoche

Chokling tersar, Tsikey chokling rinpoche, Neten chokling rinpoche

Kathok Kathok moktsa rinpoche, Kathok loga rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche

Drikung kagyu Drikung chetsang rinpoche, Drikung chungtsang rinpoche, Garchen rinpoche

Karma kamtsang The gyalwang karmapa, Tai situ rinpoche, Gyaltsab rinpoche, Jamgon kongtrul rinpoche.

Drukpa kagyu The Gyalwang drukpa, Thuksey rinpoche, khamtrul rinpoche

Sakya tradition The 41st and 42nd sakya trinzin rinpoche's and the other members of the khon family

It's simple really.. it's good to exercise extreme caution with self made teachers, or those recognized by those who are not major lineage holders.

Does it mean there has never been any politics or complications in lineages? no? .. however we receive our practices through the lineages themselves so of course we must defer to the lineage holders.

Malcolm wrote:
And yet, people continue to adopt teachers who do not have institutional backing. Your chain of authority is only as good in so far as you buy it.

Sonam Wangchug said:
So how exactly will students receive the lineage practices independent of the lineage masters? Of course we know there are individuals who give wangs who are not authorized to.

Unless if one if fortunate to encounter a teacher like Dudjom lingpa, Exercise extreme caution.

Malcolm wrote:
One of my teachers,  ChNN, was considered “unauthorized” for decades, What changed?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 11:27 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:



conebeckham said:
Sure.  Nonetheless, claims have been made, and it is reasonable to ask for verification or confirmation.  "Examine well the potential Guru," etc., right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.

Sonam Wangchug said:
"are all pretty much politics" ???

that is implying that the lineage heads lack either A) integrity, or B) wisdom.

Malcolm wrote:
Or c) work with circumstances as best they can


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
Grigoris said:
Sorry man, but I am calling you out on this one.

Are you telling me that you did not choose your teachers on the grounds of their qualifications and recognised abilities and qualities?

It's a rhetorical question...

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, it is up to the student decide who is a qualified teacher. Who else can make that decision for anyone?

Sonam Wangchug said:
Well if the said teacher has a "lineage" then there will be a "lineage-head' or several lineage holders to refer to..

Here are a few

Minling tradition Minling trichen dungse dalha rinpoche, Minling khandro rinpoche

Dudjom Tersar, Dudjom yangsi sangye pema zhepa rinpoche, Dudjom yangsi tenzin yeshe dorje. Dungse Garab dorje rinpoche, Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche, Namgyal dawa rinpoche,

Payul Nam cho: Karma kuchen rinpoche, Mugtsang rinpoche, Gyangkhang Rinpoche

Chokling tersar, Tsikey chokling rinpoche, Neten chokling rinpoche

Kathok Kathok moktsa rinpoche, Kathok loga rinpoche, Kathok situ rinpoche

Drikung kagyu Drikung chetsang rinpoche, Drikung chungtsang rinpoche, Garchen rinpoche

Karma kamtsang The gyalwang karmapa, Tai situ rinpoche, Gyaltsab rinpoche, Jamgon kongtrul rinpoche.

Drukpa kagyu The Gyalwang drukpa, Thuksey rinpoche, khamtrul rinpoche

Sakya tradition The 41st and 42nd sakya trinzin rinpoche's and the other members of the khon family

It's simple really.. it's good to exercise extreme caution with self made teachers, or those recognized by those who are not major lineage holders.

Does it mean there has never been any politics or complications in lineages? no? .. however we receive our practices through the lineages themselves so of course we must defer to the lineage holders.

Malcolm wrote:
And yet, people continue to adopt teachers who do not have institutional backing. Your chain of authority is only good in so far as you buy it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 10:46 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are free. You can do whatever you want. Everyone else does. It's up to students to decide who is a qualified teacher. It is also up to teachers to decide who is a qualified student.

Grigoris said:
Sorry man, but I am calling you out on this one.

Are you telling me that you did not choose your teachers on the grounds of their qualifications and recognised abilities and qualities?

It's a rhetorical question...

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, it is up to the student decide who is a qualified teacher. Who else can make that decision for anyone?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 8:31 AM
Title: Re: Neo nazi's march in DC
Content:
Queequeg said:
No doubt that horrible things have been done in the name of this religious authority or that, including Buddhism. This is indisputable. Its another to say that these horrors have their beginning in Dharma.

I'll add this to my reading list.

Malcolm wrote:
Dharma and Buddhism are two different things, as I have long argued.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:



conebeckham said:
Sure.  Nonetheless, claims have been made, and it is reasonable to ask for verification or confirmation.  "Examine well the potential Guru," etc., right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.

Grigoris said:
So, according to your book, I can claim to be a tulku and authorised to give Dzogchen empowerments and you are cool with that?  I mean I can probably bribe Pema Khandro to put an official signature to my claim.

Malcolm wrote:
You are free. You can do whatever you want. Everyone else does. It's up to students to decide who is a qualified teacher. It is also up to teachers to decide who is a qualified student.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
conebeckham said:
Needs collaboration.

Malcolm wrote:
Pema Khandro has students, that makes her a teacher by fiat.

conebeckham said:
Sure.  Nonetheless, claims have been made, and it is reasonable to ask for verification or confirmation.  "Examine well the potential Guru," etc., right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, but if we subject all claims made to scrutiny, very few will really stand up. No? Recognitions, confirmations, etc., are all pretty much politics in my book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Neo nazi's march in DC
Content:
Queequeg said:
That's a damning thing to suggest genocide found its genesis in Buddha Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Try giving the Mahāvamsa a read. It is one of the great documents of the founding of a religious country based upon the dehumanization and eradication of an indigenous population. The original sin of Theravada, if you will.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Neo nazi's march in DC
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

Queequeg said:
"Total fantasy" goes too far. Buddhism has a pretty good track record of having a pacifying effect on the societies where it takes root.

Malcolm wrote:
We will agree to disagree. I think the historical record shows otherwise, from Sinhalese ethnic cleansing in the Mahāvamsa to the ethnic cleansing of Bonpos in Central Tibet, to the modern day ethnic cleansing of Bhutan and Burma, I think Buddhism actually has a very shitty record of bring peace to countries in general. Not to mention the endless religious wars in Tibet and Japan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Neo nazi's march in DC
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

Grigoris said:
Utopias are always unrealistic, but if you don't aim high you generally fall short of the mark.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with Thurman's Inner Revolution is he sells his quasi-Jeffersonian version of Democracy as if somehow Tibetan culture was representative of this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 7th, 2018 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa International - Vajrayana Training
Content:
conebeckham said:
Needs collaboration.

Malcolm wrote:
Pema Khandro has students, that makes her a teacher by fiat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 6th, 2018 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Neo nazi's march in DC
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thurman’s Shangrila is a total fantasy. Any cursory review of the political history of E. Asia. SE Asia, and Central Asia should be sufficient to discover this fact.

Dan74 said:
Can't the energies of the angry frustrated people be sublimated into something more wholesome than fascism?

Queequeg said:
Dan, you sure give people the benefit of the doubt. Me? I consider stupidity to be a terminal trait affecting most of humanity not leaving a whole lot of hope. Most people are motivated by petty impulses grounded in fear and selfishness, and these Alt-Right are pure fear and selfishness.

Talking to these bozos to get them to walk back their motivation, while a nice idea, won't get anywhere because the reason faculty is clearly compromised in them, either because they are congenitally stupid or because they've thought themselves too far down this path already. These idiots have built a whole ecosystem of meaning based on their impulses. You're not going to bring that down with an earnest conversation at a kissing booth.

We need leaders who offer a compelling alternative. Just talking a good game is not enough. Its got to be demonstrated in a way of life. Toynbee (a flawed person who had some compelling ideas) argued that societies flourish or die because of how they manage the challenge-and-response dynamic. He argued, the way this plays out - its not that all the members of society somehow spontaneously rise to the challenge before them, but rather, a creative minority emerges who comes up with a solution to a particular challenge. The rest of the masses then follow along through the process of mimesis. Their ability is limited to seeing a good idea and copying it.

What compelling alternative is there for these guys? Our creative minority, the tech crowd, the ascendant cohort with the money, the fame, and exciting function in society, actually thinks like them. On a whole, tech bros lean libertarian in that dickish Ayn Rand sort of way. Its not going out on a limb to say there is considerable overlap between the tech crowd and 4chan /pol/. Peter Thiel, aside from being gay, is only a few degrees removed from Richard Spencer in terms of his overall attitude. Tim Draper, the silicon valley bozo who wants to break California up into different states, demonstrates this impulse to segregate - that's what breaking up the state is all about - segregation. The difference his criteria is political and economic rather than racial and cultural.

I assume most readers here are Buddhist, so I'd recommend Bob Thurman's Inner Revolution. He points out the effect that Buddhism, particularly monastic Buddhism, had on India and Asia in general. Basically, it led to pacification. He argues its better for young men to bang their heads against the wall conquering their "self" than unleashing that energy on society. He argues the drawback for Buddhism is that Buddhism gets infused with machismo, but overall, society is better when young men are occupied with Dharma. That's sublimation of that energy in the best way so far. Thurman goes on to describe a society that is devoted to peace and life of the mind and proposes ways to do that. His proposal is a pipe dream, of course, but its thought provoking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 6th, 2018 at 6:47 AM
Title: Re: The Retreat Map--from Kongtrul's Retreat Manual
Content:
pemachophel said:
IME, as one progresses in their practice one needs less and less sleep.

Sonam Wangchug said:
True.

Malcolm wrote:
As one gets older one needs less and less sleep. This is very normal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 6th, 2018 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: Source of Om Mani Padme Hum
Content:
Queequeg said:
I've read references to texts translated into Chinese much earlier that make reference to six-syllable dharani associated with the six forms of Avalokitesvara. Are there such texts in the Kangyur?

Is there significance to there being six syllables?

In Japan, the chant I've heard associated with Avalokitesvara is "Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu".

Malcolm wrote:
In general, six syllables stands for the six lokas.

This dharani text was translated from Chinese into Tibetan:

ārya-bodhisattva-avalokiteśvara-sahasra-bhujanetāsaṅga-mahākāruṇika-citta-vistara-paripūrṇa-nāma-dhāraṇī (千手千眼觀世音菩薩廣大圓滿無礙大悲心陀羅尼經)

These dharani texts exist in both Tibetan and Chinese:

ārya-avalokiteśvara-ekadaśamukha-nāma-dhāraṇ (十一面觀世音神呪經)

ārya-avalokiteśvara-hayagrīva-dhāraṇī (陀羅尼集經)

ārya-avalokiteśvara-mātā-nāma-dhāraṇī (觀自在菩薩母陀羅尼經)

ārya-avalokiteśvara-nāma-aṣṭaśataka (聖觀自在菩薩一百八名經)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 6th, 2018 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Source of Om Mani Padme Hum
Content:
dharmapdx said:
I'm really not trying to be cute here. LOL. Given that this is a Tibetan chant.


Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not a "Tibetan" chant. It's source is the Ārya-karaṇḍavyūha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, a sūtra which entered the Chinese canon rather late (983).

More info here:

Author:Studholme, Alexander
Title:The Origins of Oṃ Maṇipadme Huṃ: A Study of the Kāraṇḍavyūha
Publ. Date:2002
Publ. Details:Albany: State University of New York Press

Queequeg said:
Is this one of those texts that made its way to Tibet via China? Or was that text also transmitted directly to Tibet also?

The first place I heard that chant was at Wutaishan.

Malcolm wrote:
Direct, translated into Tibetan earlier than China.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 6th, 2018 at 12:28 AM
Title: Source of Om Mani Padme Hum
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mod Note: Split from "https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=29382"

dharmapdx said:
I'm really not trying to be cute here. LOL. Given that this is a Tibetan chant.


Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not a "Tibetan" chant. It's source is the Ārya-karaṇḍavyūha-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra, a sūtra which entered the Chinese canon rather late (983).

More info here:

Author:Studholme, Alexander
Title:The Origins of Oṃ Maṇipadme Huṃ: A Study of the Kāraṇḍavyūha
Publ. Date:2002
Publ. Details:Albany: State University of New York Press


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Culture and History
Content:


Queequeg said:
Yes. That makes sense.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no it does not. These issues were quite consuming for Tibetans, and there is an entire literature devoted to such cosmological questions as identifying the actual Akaniṣṭha, and so on, based on Indian sources.

Queequeg said:
But surely these fellows who were master philosophers also understood the import of their stories. Without end, without limit. Infinity... All these possibilities were available to them. Going to this degree of unfathomable but putting it in a way that leaves a question about finality or infinality itself likely was on purpose.

Malcolm wrote:
Tsuglag Trengwa ( Gtsug lag 'phreng ba 1504-1566) writes in his Feast For Paṇḍitas ( mkhas pa'i dga' ston ):


A billion fields of Kusumatalagarbhālaṃkara 
exists in each pore
of Vairocanasagara. 
Every particle of his body is similar.
Every particle of that field is as numerous. 
Vairocana is the sambhogakāya
of Śākyamuni. 
Where ever that kāya and buddhafield reside,
that buddhafield combines all into one,
said to be the field of every sambhogakāya. 
In this manner, where ever space pervades, 
also the buddhafield and kāya of the victor exists.
In the absolute definitive meaning, however,
the kāya and buddhafield
are immeasurable, and no limit can be apprehended.

The above is standard late Indian Buddhist cosmology, and has come to be the standard Mahāyāna cosmology of Tibet.

You can search how it is treated in Chinese Buddhism with this:

華藏庄嚴


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 10:58 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen for busy people!
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Whatever one may do, Dzogchen requires 100% commitment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 7:30 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Culture and History
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Flower Filled World is Kusumatalagarbhālaṃkāra. This world system, the Sahaloka is contained within Kusumatalagarbhālaṃkāra, which rests in the palm of the hand of Vairocana Jñānasagara, the mahāsambhogakāya, within whose body all of the cosmos resides.

Losal Samten said:
Are there infinite Vairocana Jñānasagaras (or equivalents)?

Malcolm wrote:
Good question. When you find out, let us know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 6:37 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Culture and History
Content:
Aryjna said:
There is a somewhat amusing twist in the book by Jamgon Kongtrul:


Malcolm wrote:
The Flower Filled World is Kusumatalagarbhālaṃkāra. This world system, the Sahaloka is contained within Kusumatalagarbhālaṃkāra, which rests in the palm of the hand of Vairocana Jñānasagara, the mahāsambhogakāya, within whose body all of the cosmos resides.

Queequeg said:
For reference, can you direct us to the source of this?

Turning to the substance of the teaching, does it make sense to ask what is outside of Vairocana's body? Or is Vairocana a sort of Mobius Strip limit?

In certain respects, these statements appear to be a series of one-up claims. Is there a point where one surrenders to infinity?

Malcolm wrote:
This is standard Mahayana cosmology based on the Flower Ornament Sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Culture and History
Content:


Queequeg said:
What is the 3000 fold universe above? How is that number arrived at?


Malcolm wrote:
The Tibetan term is stong gsum, literally "three one thousands," or trisāhasra in Sanskrit. But 3000-fold is not a good translation equivalent. I render it "a billion world universe."

It refers to 1000 * 1000 * 1000 = a billion.

There are a billion planets in the Sahaloka. Each planet has a Mt. Meru, 4 continents, sun and moon., etc.

See http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Trichiliocosm:

Mantrik said:
Depends which Billion we mean. When first coined, 1 Billion was 1 million x 1 million, but as a modern translation your version is OK. Is the '1 Billion' planets of the Sahaloka referring to the original or the amended 'short' Billion, or just meaning 'infinite' or 'a lot' as the term did not exist until recent centuries.

Malcolm wrote:
Stong gsum refers to 10 to ninth power. It is a very specific number in Indian mathematics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Mantrik said:
Are you expressing a personal view or from ChNN himself?

Malcolm wrote:
Both.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: The Retreat Map--from Kongtrul's Retreat Manual
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to Tibetan Medicine, one needs 8 hours of sleep. One should try to be asleep by 10, and one should rise at six. But since I am a terrible practitioner, I never follow even this advice. I am usually asleep by midnight, and awake between 8 or 9.

The best pure vision approach is original purity, that includes everything.

Practitioners are liberation through seeing by nature, whether they sleep alot or not, and whether they practice 30 seconds a day or 24 hours.


pemachophel said:
Hugger,

"I hope he also took full responsibility for such things as car accidents caused by exhausted and sleep-deprived students of his, trying to work, practice and have a family life at the same time -- essentially, trying to live two lives at the same time, one of a dharmic "profesional," the other of a Western regular joe."

Have you tried dag-nang (pure vision) yet?

The five transformations when listening to the Dharma:

1. The Teacher as whatever Buddha is associated with the teaching or as Shakyamuni, Guru Rinpoche, etc. In other words, if the teaching is about Manjushri, then the Teacher is Manjushri. If the teaching is about Avalokiteshwara, then the Teacher is Avalokiteshwara. If the teaching is originally by Guru Rinpoche, then the Teacher is Guru Rinpoche.
2. The place as that Buddha's field, e.g., Potala, Sukhavati, Pema Od
3. The time as the fourth time, i.e., the time beyond past, present, and future
4. Those other listeners as that Buddha's Bodhisatva/Bodhisatvi disciples or as Pawos and Dakinis
5. The Teaching as the highest, most precious Teaching which is most applicable directly to you

IME, if one listens to the Dharma with one's ordinary discursive mind filled with dualism and doubt, maybe yes, maybe no, hard to get much traction.

Similarly, hard to make much progress if one is "trying to live two lives," one Dharmic and the other samsaric. In my experience, the trick is to live one's life Dharmically regardless of the activities one is engaged in. There does not need to be any separation. There's a way to make any activity a Dharmic activity as long as it is not inherently non-virtuous. That's the skillful means of Vajrayana. But it all depends on dag-nang and, moment by moment, implementing those skillful means. As they say, practice makes perfect. Granted, this is easier said than done, but who said attaining perfectly complete, unsurpassed Enlightnement was easy

treehuggingoctopus said:
I think we are talking past each other here.

I wholeheartedly agree that we have to make as much of our life as possible (all of it, ultimately) into Dharma activity. There is plainly no other way.

Then there is the question of our formal practice -- a type of Dharmic activity which, while entirely necessary for us Western householders, poses a particular challenge. To illustrate: in the traditional framework, a committed practitioner (the, for the lack of better words, "Dharmic professional") goes into retreat, which will last at least three years and during which he or she probably will not have any non-religious duties (hence the opportunity to focus almost solely on formal practice, doing a complete ngondro in three months, etc). I can readily imagine that if one is relatively healthy, and enjoys a community support (or at least the support of a culture which on some level recognises the validity of that sort of endeavour) one could sleep very little indeed. Those of us who already have families and are forced to have regular, 9-5 jobs find themselves in an entirely different situation -- our non-religious duties consume the better part of our lives, and finding time for regular formal practice will be often very difficult indeed. We also need our sleep (and food, decent health, etc.) -- and yes, it is a tightrope walk, precisely the one which I had in mind when I wrote of us struggling to lead two lives at the same time. The fact that the Western world (which at least a part of our family, friends, neighbours very, very much belong to) perceives what we do as either a form of insanity or a eccentric leisure activity does not help either, euphemistically put.

I can allocate between two and three hours a day to my formal practice. At least once in a fortnight, on average, I am so tired that I literally fall asleep on the cushion. Cutting down on sleep would be just plainly irresponsible, to put it mildly. (Actually, I have discovered that not exceeding two hours of formal practice a day and allowing myself to skip sessions when I am really tired both increases the quality of my formal practice and greatly helps the Dharma to seep into my post-session life.)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Aryjna said:
I think it is not that strange that it is considered better in person, simply as a stronger connection may be created, as in any other connection it may be stronger if you meet someone in person than if you talk a little over the internet, in the end it may not matter depending on capacity and diligence.

As for a different empowerment for the same deity being irrelevant, isn't that a bit strange, it is not like it is a completely different deity because it comes from a different terma. It is still the same attributes etc. It is something I have thought about before, so it would be good if there was some authoritative answer on the matter.

Pero said:
Well for example I think Malcolm mentioned somewhere that if you get an empowerment into a mandala of one cycle, you can't do practices of another cycle even if it's the same diety, because it's a completely different mandala. However occasionally I see that when there are requirements for receiveing some teachings it may be something like "any empowerment of Guru Rinpoche".

treehuggingoctopus said:
I have heard from a few people who were there that when ChNN was first giving the donwang of Jnanadakini (~2005), Khyentse Yeshe reported that the Boss had told him that the donwang is exactly the same (bells and whistles aside) as the more traditional Longsal Root Initiation; they are both equally valid, and if ChNN did not give the donwang previously it was because he had not received it himself yet. Still, since then Rinpoche has given the LRI at least twice, in 2010 and in 2014.

Pero said:
In essence yeah but it's not just "bells and whistles" that are different as far as I can recall.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Possibly (much to my dismay, I have not received the LRI, just the donwang) but functionally they are the same. Which begs the question why Rinpoche keeps giving both.

Malcolm wrote:
Longer empowerments are for those with less faith.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Culture and History
Content:
Aryjna said:
There is a somewhat amusing twist in the book by Jamgon Kongtrul:
The total number of world-systems comprising one Flower-Filled World is calculated by progressively multiplying by factors of one billion: One billion great thousand third-order thousand world-systems constitutes the world-system Infinite Links. A billion of those is the world-system Infinite Continuums. A billion of those is the world-system Oceanic Infinity. One billion of those is the extent of one Flower-Filled World. Each world-system rests on its own great ocean and is encircled by a rim. At the same time, one great rim encircles them all.
One [arrangement] of such dimension constitutes the sphere of influence of a single supreme manifest dimension of awakening. To those of limited intelligence, [the sphere of influence] is taught to be only a third-order thousand world-system.

Malcolm wrote:
The Flower Filled World is Kusumatalagarbhālaṃkāra. This world system, the Sahaloka is contained within Kusumatalagarbhālaṃkāra, which rests in the palm of the hand of Vairocana Jñānasagara, the mahāsambhogakāya, within whose body all of the cosmos resides.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Culture and History
Content:


Queequeg said:
What is the 3000 fold universe above? How is that number arrived at?


Malcolm wrote:
The Tibetan term is stong gsum, literally "three one thousands," or trisāhasra in Sanskrit. But 3000-fold is not a good translation equivalent. I render it "a billion world universe."

It refers to 1000 * 1000 * 1000 = a billion.

There are a billion planets in the Sahaloka. Each planet has a Mt. Meru, 4 continents, sun and moon., etc.

See http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Trichiliocosm:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 5th, 2018 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Path of Joining and Emptiness
Content:
Bristollad said:
This is covered in Chapter 1, topic 3 of the Exalted Knower of All Aspects: Mahayana Path of Preparation in the Abhisamayalamkara.

From course notes:

On the Mahayana path of accumulation of those of definite Mahayana lineage: there is a fully qualified application in complete aspects and wisdoms arisen from meditation observing impermanence, suffering, unattractiveness, etc. However, there is no wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

When the wisdom arisen from meditation observing emptiness is initially generated, someone who is of definite Mahayana lineage transfers to the Mahayana path of preparation.

Note: It is (according to this system) not very common but some hearers and solitary realizers also realize the emptiness of true existence. These may then later enter the Mahayana path and proceed along to Buddhahood. Such practitioners already possess a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness before they enter the Mahayana path of preparation. Therefore, unless we only speak about Bodhisattvas of definite Mahayana lineage, there is no pervasion that the path of preparation starts with the first generation of a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

Three wisdoms
Wisdom arisen from hearing: a wisdom arisen mainly from hearing (or reading) the meaning of the scriptures.
Wisdom arisen from contemplation: a wisdom arisen mainly from the contemplation of the meaning of the scriptures that one has heard (or read) befrore.
Wisdom arisen from meditation: a wisdom arisen mainly in dependence on familiarizing with the understanding that has been generated during contemplation with a mind that is based on a union of calm abiding and special insight.

Three types of wisdom observing emptiness
Question: What are the differences between the three types of wisdom observing emptiness?
Response: Wisdom arisen from hearing or wisdom arisen from contemplation: although a meaning generality of emptiness dawns well, the object and the object-possessor appear as though unrelated due to being together with very coarse dualistic appearances.
Wisdom arisen from meditation: although there are dualistic appearances, due to having overcome the coarse dualistic appearances as in the previous two cases, it appears as if one has penetrated the object.
Such a dawning of the meaning-generality of emptiness is described as “dharmata appearing clearly” due to being transformed in a manner of water placed in water.

Nevertheless, this is not a clear appearance that is free from conceptions. Instead, at the time of the Mahayana path of preparation of somebody of definite Mahayana lineage, there is a clear appearance of a meaning-generality during a conceptual realization of emptiness which is a wisdom arisen from meditation; there is not yet a clear appearance of emptiness at that time.

Malcolm wrote:
This needs some modification, mostly because the translated terms are overly literal.


Bristollad said:
Three types of wisdom observing emptiness
Question: What are the differences between the three types of wisdom observing emptiness?
Response: Wisdom arisen from hearing or wisdom arisen from contemplation: although a generic object of emptiness dawns well, the object and the subject appear as though unrelated due to being together with very coarse dualistic appearances.
Wisdom arisen from meditation: although there are dualistic appearances, due to having overcome the coarse dualistic appearances as in the previous two cases, it appears as if one has penetrated the object.
Such a dawning of the generic object of emptiness is described as “dharmata appearing clearly” due to being transformed in a manner of water placed in water.

Nevertheless, this is not a clear appearance that is free from conceptions. Instead, at the time of the Mahayana path of preparation of somebody of definite Mahayana lineage, there is a clear appearance of a generic object during a conceptual realization of emptiness which is a wisdom arisen from meditation; there is not yet a clear appearance of emptiness at that time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 4th, 2018 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Arnoud said:
Thank you very much Malcolm. Truly extraordinary. How long did it take you to translate the whole text? Must have been a few days.

BTW, if anyone has lack of funds but has the requirements to read this text, please let me know. I will pay for three sets and shipping for those who can't afford it. It would be best if that was in the US as shipping overseas gets very expensive but let me know and I can see what I can do.
I still have one left to give away. Don't hesitate to contact me.

Thanks again Malcolm for this wonderful set. Truly something that will withstand the test of time.

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks Arnoud,that is quite generous of you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, September 4th, 2018 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
amanitamusc said:
Do you have others of the  17. ready to  roll out?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, two more root texts WITH commentaries.

amanitamusc said:
Do you get a potential time frame from wisdom as to when they will give the
go ahead? What are these other two?
Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Spring 2020.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
amanitamusc said:
Do you have others of the  17. ready to  roll out?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, two more root texts WITH commentaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:
Norwegian said:
If this is what she said to the woman, then that is completely disgusting.

Queequeg said:
Which is why the authors had a responsibility to not run the account without corroborating. That is a serious charge.

Malcolm wrote:
There is nothing criminal about the alleged statement by made PC. It's just a bit appalling, if true. If PC thinks it is libelous, she can take it to court. In Canada, she might even win.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:


Queequeg said:
It is irresponsible. Whether they had a responsibility to do anything, they undertook the responsibility when they claimed they were being responsible.

Malcolm wrote:
They clearly felt they had a higher responsibility to make these various allegations known and the names of those accused, which in fact are found throughout all three reports. The only names that are redacted are the alleged victims and reporters of the allegations. Whether this is "proper" or not, it is clearly a response to what appears to be pervasive and systematic shielding of elite Shambhalians from the consequences of their actions. It is clear they are trying to stimulate prosecutorial interest in these cases.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Virgo said:
Malcolm, does the publisher always choose the release date?

Kevin...

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:


passel said:
‘Datura’ seems the same- no nightshades outside the New World pre-Columbus.

Malcolm wrote:
"Datura" in Indian texts refers to Datura Metel. It is related to Datura Stramonium, etc., which are native to the new world. All datura species belong to the Solanaceae family.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
fckw said:
There's also this guy who speculates that even the historical buddha might have made use of psychoactive substances: https://palisuttas.wordpress.com/2014/05/24/was-the-buddha-a-shaman/. However, personally am not convinced at all by this claim and think this is too much of a stretch. In all, I don't think he is a reliable source of information.

And then, there is this guy:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=17576
And his book:
https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Drugs-Buddhism-Mike-Crowley/dp/0692652817 as well as http://secretdrugs.net/
On the internet there are claims that he is a Kagyu lama. I could not verify this. Although I don't subscribe to all his claims made (for example this stuff I consider quite far off: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1751696X.2015.1026028 ), I immediately subscribe to his claim that amrita used in tantric initiations originally contained psychedelic substances.

Malcolm wrote:
You can subscribe to whatever baseless nonsense you choose, but it is nonsense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 1st, 2018 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
pael said:
E-book?

Malcolm wrote:
It will be out sometime next year.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, September 1st, 2018 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The study you cite is so poorly constructed as to be laughable.

DGA said:
Before I attended my first Buddhist teaching, I ate some enchiladas. This gave me the energy to ride my bike over the bridge and to the Dharma center.

Ergo, enchiladas were my chemical gateway to Dharma.

YMMV.

Arupajhana7 said:
Reaearch indicates high doses of psilocybin show similar brain scan results to meditation. The research also indicates that highly experienced meditators who had never done psychedelics prior to the research reported many similarities in their psilocybin experience to their peak experiences in long retreats.

https://www.psymposia.com/magazine/john... editators/

Is there similar research on enchiladas?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: What Shamatha tradition best prepares one for Dzogchen?
Content:
florin said:
Wallace, in his book on shamatha from Dudjom Lingpa's revelation, suggests that the tremendous potential that can be developed by extensively training in shamahta, can become infinitely more powerful if on that basis we continue to train in vipashyana, generation, treckchod, thogal, etc.

treehuggingoctopus said:
One controversial statement I have heard Wallace make is that you cannot sufficiently develop shamatha through mantra recitation (as in ngondro or deity practice). It is even stranger considering the fact that he claimed he is repeating what Dudjom Lingpa had to say on the issue -- all the Dudjom Tersar teachers I have come across argue that the opposite is true.

Malcolm wrote:
As does Mañjuśṛmitra and Rongzom Chokyi Paṇḍita. This is also contradicted by Saroruhavajra's presentation of the nine stages of śamatha in the context of the Hevajra sadhana and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
haha said:
Actually, one might use Hallucinating Substances to assert everything as mind. But it could be a part of Vipassana, not to space out or bliss out. Nor it is for run away from samsara in different zone. I remembered an example from Tripal Tantra and it was one of the eight examples to assert mind. Those examples were used for meditation.

Malcolm wrote:
The explanation of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana through the 32 examples in triple tantra does not recommend actually taking datura. It is used as an example only.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
jmlee369 said:
The hippies were rebelling against Western society and searching for alternatives, a new way of life, something more spiritual, you might even say the truth, the Dharma, and many came to India and Nepal. However, what happens and whom you meet when you come to the East is totally up to your karma. You might be looking for something meaningful but what you find is up to karma.

Many of those people were taking drugs, but in some cases drugs could have been the Buddha’s skillful means to help break those people’s concepts. They had such unbelievably fixed minds, fixed ideas—strong, unchangeable beliefs that there was just this one life; no understanding that the mind can exist without the body. Their thinking was unbelievably gross. People like this needed something external to break their concepts and enable them to see things more deeply. Drugs gave them many experiences such as the mind being able to travel without the body, which shocked and surprised them, because it was completely opposite to what was taught and believed in the West.
https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/how-kopan-courses-began


Malcolm wrote:
Lama Zopa seems to have a lack of understanding of the history of European occult and mystical interests.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana
Content:
Tongnyid Dorje said:
Im curious, if there is any evidence of vajrayana being practiced  in Swat valley and Tajik, ectr, or not?

As for Shambala: in text is Shambala described north to Oddiyana. Actualy, there is a city in Orissa called Shambalpur till today...

Malcolm wrote:
Shambhala was likely the region of modern day Balkh.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
fckw said:
Drugs, whether we like it or not, have always been intimate part of tantric ritual (it seems not of Dzogchen, though). Cannabis, but of course also other drugs. And yes, we're talking both of various "hindu" and buddhist tantric traditions. See here for a long list of sources to study on the subject: http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/rich_text_5.html.

Malcolm wrote:
I have looked at these sources and this document is extremely misleading. None of these sources indicate that psychedelics play a role in rituals. Most of the uses datura described in these sources employ datura because it is a poison.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 31st, 2018 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:
Queequeg said:
What about the overall culture? Culture is a strong influence but its basically passive. #metoo is a movement seeking to change the overall culture in the West in the area of sexual abuse and discrimination, particularly the United States. I am sure what is happening at Shambhala now is influenced by #metoo.

Grigoris said:
It seems to me that #grabthembythepussy is currently winning the culture war in America.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not the case. At this point, there is a 72% chance that Dems win the House, according to 538.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 30th, 2018 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:


DGA said:
That's a different matter from claiming that such substances can be or are supports on any Dharma path at all

Arupajhana7 said:
I wonder how many people got into the Dharma because of an experience on a psychedelic.

Malcolm wrote:
None. People "get into the Dharma" because they have the merit to meet the Dharma, period. Has everyone completely forgotten the eighteen freedoms and endowments in this thread?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 30th, 2018 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
On the other hand MDMA also known as ecstasy is now in phase 3 clinical trials as a "breakthrough cure" for PTSD and possibly other mental health related disorders:
https://maps.org/research/mdma
Difficult to meditate/be in the state etc when you're having severe panic attacks etc

DGA said:
Yes, and ketamine is now prescribed in some instances for severe depression.  I spoke with someone who was convinced that clinically-supervised use of ketamine saved her life (she suffered from soul-crushing depression).  I certainly wouldn't rule out some medical use for substances such as DMT or mescaline or psilocybin.

That's a different matter from claiming that such substances can be or are supports on any Dharma path at all, much less Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 29th, 2018 at 9:14 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
Matylda said:
are you using psychodelics???

monktastic said:
Not recently. I did many times when younger, and discussed my experiences with my guru. This forum seems like the wrong place to share anything about those conversations.

Malcolm wrote:
I also used these substances many times when I was young. They have no value on the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 29th, 2018 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
pemachophel said:
Loppon-la,

Do you know if Caro Maestro has actually taken LSD Himself or is this an opinion based on His observation of others?

I'm not sure that it is correct to lump LSD, mushrooms, and ayahuasca together in this discussion. It's possible that each has its own mechanisms of action within the body, corresponding results, and adverse reactions.

Malcolm wrote:
I have had patients who have experienced gdon zin/bhūtagraha as a result of taking ayahuasca. That shit definitely messes with one's winds.

Shrooms, in my opinon, are the least impactful; that said, they have no use on a path. LSD messes with one's winds pretty severely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 29th, 2018 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:



florin said:
When we have a concrete vision due to misunderstanding, that will be impermanent.

Malcolm wrote:
So vision dues to understanding will be permanent?



florin said:
Although concrete and separate  we are still able to have an understanding of its arising and passing.We are still able to observe impermanence from the standpoint of someone who is separate from the display. But while in the dzogchen state what can be said about the display since the entire diversity of manifestations  is seen and understood as the pure display of wisdom ?

Malcolm wrote:
Are those manifestations permanent or impermanent?


florin said:
Is wisdom impermanent ?
I thought that it is very clear already and not up to debate that wisdom is understood to be  beyond the four conceptual limits.

Malcolm wrote:
If the manifestations are impermanent, how can wisdom be permanent? A permanent entity (wisdom) can not give rise to an impermanent manifestation (display). Further, if wisdom is free from the four extremes, also its product, the display, must be free from the four extremes, not established in any way, being itself similar to an illusion or a mirage.

Further, you make it sound as if there are two phases: being in the dzogchen state and not being in the dzogchen state. Since there is nothing that is not in the dzogchen state, how can there be a phase of being in the dzogchen state and not being in the dzogchen state?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 29th, 2018 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
pemachophel said:
Loppon-la,

"LSD, Mushrooms, etc., all cause agitation and completely interfere with one-pointedness."

Is this statement based on personal experience, Tibetan medical theory, or both? If Tibetan medical theory, based on what evidence and/or whose opinion? Just curious from a professional point of view.

Years ago, I floated a possible Chinese medical mechanism for LSD's psychedelic effects. I'd be very interested in hearing the TTM description of exactly what happens when one "drops acid."

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN asserts that these substances "charge one's energy," meaning in translation, cause a disturbance or agitation in one's rlung. An ordinary person cannot maintain one pointedness if their rlung is disturbed. If the rlung is agitated, the mind will be agitated. Agitation is actually a product of excess rlung, just as lethargy is a produce of deficient rlung.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Understanding here refers to go ba, which in Tibetan means "intellectual understanding." Experience is " nyams," and experience comes from applying in practice that which one has understood intellectually. That results in realization [ rtogs pa ]. Practice in Tibetan is " nyams len," "to take into experience.

Rick said:
Nice and clear, thanks.

This is from Keith Dowman, in Natural Perfection, Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen:

"In the Dzogchen view there is no prescriptive practise in which to engage in order to attain rigpa, and there is nothing that we can do to induce that view. Dzogchen 'nonmeditation' is a spontaneous noncontingent continuity—a timeless synchronistic awareness."

Assuming it is true that there is no prescriptive practice to attain rigpa, what does 'nyams len' consist of?

Also, now that I've brought it up, what in livin' tarnation does this mean :

"Dzogchen 'nonmeditation' is a spontaneous noncontingent continuity—a timeless synchronistic awareness."

Malcolm wrote:
Is this his commentary, or is this his translation of Longchenpa. If so, which chapter is this from.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
florin said:
Yes i am just a baby.
You never dissapoint Magnus.

heart said:
You are hardly a baby Florin. Primordial purity and impermanence are closely connected and because of that contemplating impermanence is very important in Dzogchen.

/magnus

florin said:
I would say impermanence "happens" before dzogchen. It Is when we conventionally have "things" that appear to arise, decay and pass out of existence.
Impermanence is something that is observed when one hasn't yet understood the real "essence" of one's state.

"When my nature is not understood and the phenomena that manifest from me become the object of judgement, desire and attachment give rise to the creation of concrete vision that is impermanent and destined to vanish like a magical apparition, and one becomes like a blind man who does not know what is happening."

"Self-arising wisdom, the essence of all the Buddhas, exists prior to the division of samsara and nirvana and is beyond the limits of transmigration and liberation. As it transcends the four conceptual limits and is intrinsically pure, this original condition is the uncreated nature of existence that has always existed, the ultimate nature of all phenomena. It cannot be identified with a stable and eternal substance allowing the assertion "It is thus!" and is utterly free of all the defects of dualistic thought, which is only capable of referring to an object other than itself. It is given the name ineffable and inconceivable "base of primordial purity" KG

Malcolm wrote:
These passages do not mean that phenomena are not impermanent. Anything that manifests is a product, and any product is impermanent, like sound.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:


monktastic said:
Not enlightenment, but you certainly can trip your way into the form and formless dhyanas.

Malcolm wrote:
No, one cannot. Entering and sustaining these dhyānas, for a person physically located in the desire realm, necessarily involves disciplined concentration in which specific mental factors are systematically dropped. LSD, Mushrooms, etc., all cause agitation and completely interfere with one-pointedness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Rick said:
can realizations arise out of intellectual/contemplative experiences?

Wayfarer said:
Realisations generally arise from an innate understanding...

Malcolm wrote:
No, in Dzogchen, realization arises from an explanation which one has understood, and applied in practice. Please pay attention to the forum you are posting in.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 7:54 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Rick said:
What does it mean to 'realize' something?

Malcolm wrote:
Understanding + experience = realization.

Rick said:
1. Understanding is an experience. (In common parlance, at least. Perhaps not in Dzogchen?) So can the experience of understanding, if sufficiently powerful, be the 'experience' in the above formula?

2. Slightly different: Understanding can spark an experience (separate from the experience of understanding itself). For example, if a sufficiently 'ripe' student reads about emptiness, it could spark an experience of the emptiness of the reading and reader (and read). Can this be the 'experience' in the formula?

Malcolm wrote:
Understanding here refers to go ba, which in Tibetan means "intellectual understanding." Experience is " nyams," and experience comes from applying in practice that which one has understood intellectually. That results in realization [ rtogs pa ]. Practice in Tibetan is " nyams len," "to take into experience.

This definition was given by Lama Karma, the resident lama at Tara Mandala. I think it is a very useful definition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 7:35 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A pratyakṣa ( mngon sum ) is a simple impression upon the senses, a direct perception or a cognition, take your pick, since they are synonyms. These are defined as nonconceptual in Buddhadharma. Since you are posting in the Dzogchen forum, you need to understand this word and concept is critically important in Dzogchen teachings, as well as important in Buddhadharma in general. For example, the direct, nonconceptual cognition of the ultimate truth is called yogapratyakṣa, yogic direct perception, etc.

Concepts are assembled out of these direct perceptions by the mental factors. For example, in the first moment of observing a blue cup, there is no concept of cup or blue, etc, there is only a naked cognition of a blue shape. The fact that one is perceiving a blue cup is assembled by the samjñā skandha. The vijñāna skandha is always nonconceptual consciousness by nature.

Bundokji said:
I can relate to what you are saying even though i am not very familiar with the terminology. The presence of experience is what i tend to call un-defiled consciousness. Consciousness is a necessary condition for attention and attention is the necessary condition for conceptual knowledge. The constant correlation between the three is what led to the defiled "self consciousness". The very arising of knowledge gives the false impression that there is knower.  This is my current understanding.

Malcolm wrote:
Conventionally, there is knower, a self, a person, and so on. Ultimately, no knower, self, person, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 7:34 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Grigoris said:
No, I want scripture.  I also have all sorts of cock-eyed ideas of what reality is, doesn't mean they are correct though.  AND I am talking about scriptural sources for your view that self-view is the cause of impermanence and causality.  It doesn't accord with anything I have ever read.  But then again I have not read everything.  Maybe you would like to share where you read it?

Bundokji said:
Why do you think in the following sutta, the Buddha made a distinction between dependent co-arising & dependently co-arisen phenomena?

Malcolm wrote:
He didn't make such a distinction in this sutta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: What Shamatha tradition best prepares one for Dzogchen?
Content:
falcon said:
Thank you for the thorough response.

Any contending word to that of Alan Wallace's stance that the Vissudhimagga should be the standard?

Malcolm wrote:
The Visuddhimagga should not, under any circumstance, be regarded as the standard for defining these things In Dzogchen teachings. Dzogchen is squarely within the Sarvastivada/Sautrantika Abdhidharmakośa tradition. Therefore, it's definitions are the ones salient to Dzogchen practice and concepts.

falcon said:
Since Kamalashila is the tibetan standard for shamatha, should I, or one interested in developing the mental faculty to support the practice of Dzogchen look there for instructional guidance and mile markers of progress?

I say this as one who wants to develop shamatha as well as work in Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Actually, you should learn the four yoga of mahāmudra as a preparation. Learning the four yogas of mahāmudra is a common step people take when learning Dzogchen teachings. It is invaluable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
LolCat said:
Now without referring to a memory of A1 and S1, A2 cannot directly infer change, and thus change is not directly experienced but inferred?



Bundokji said:
Is not our ability to recall thing and use this knowledge to predict the future is what gives us the impression that there is an unchanging self through time and space?

Malcolm wrote:
Not all uses the term "self" imply that one is subject to the fetter of satkāyadṛṣṭi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When you say that change cannot be perceived directly, are you referring to a pratyakṣa, a nonconceptual direct cognition? If so, please define your terms more carefully.

Bundokji said:
"a non-conceptual direct cognition" is an oxymoron. Why?

Cognition is the mental action or process of acquiring knowledge and understanding through thought, experience, and the senses.

If there is such a thing as non-conceptual direct cognition as you are claiming, then it cannot be conceptualized as non-conceptual.

Malcolm wrote:
A pratyakṣa ( mngon sum ) is a simple impression upon the senses, a direct perception or a cognition, take your pick, since they are synonyms. These are defined as nonconceptual in Buddhadharma. Since you are posting in the Dzogchen forum, you need to understand this word and concept is critically important in Dzogchen teachings, as well as important in Buddhadharma in general. For example, the direct, nonconceptual cognition of the ultimate truth is called yogapratyakṣa, yogic direct perception, etc.

Concepts are assembled out of these direct perceptions by the mental factors. For example, in the first moment of observing a blue cup, there is no concept of cup or blue, etc, there is only a naked cognition of a blue shape. The fact that one is perceiving a blue cup is assembled by the samjñā skandha. The vijñāna skandha is always nonconceptual consciousness by nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Huh? This does not make any sense at all. It is because there is no self and nothing that belongs to a self that there is impermanence.

Bundokji said:
I explained how the perception of change is a conclusion and why change cannot be perceived directly. Did you have any problem with my explanation?

The explanation is easy to refute by the way if there is a clear refutation. It is two premises and one conclusion. If you think i had it wrong, where?

By the way, I respect your and Gregoris's seniority on this forum, so if i am crossing any red lines, please let me know and i will stop

Malcolm wrote:
When you say that change cannot be perceived directly, are you referring to a pratyakṣa, a nonconceptual direct cognition? If so, please define your terms more carefully.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Bundokji said:
Self view.

Grigoris said:
Self view is the cause of impermanence?  How so?

Bundokji said:
You can refer back to my answer. I have nothing more to add. If you find something missing in my answer, then please state it clearly.


Malcolm wrote:
Your answer is false and unsupportable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Grigoris said:
What is the cause/condition of impermanence?

Bundokji said:
Self view.

Malcolm wrote:
Huh? This does not make any sense at all. It is because there is no self and nothing that belongs to a self that there is impermanence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:



florin said:
And i thought permanence-impermanence are conceptual obscurations only.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on whether one is discussing things from the point of view of the relative or the ultimate. And before you go tossing out the two truths, the Mdo bcu states:

By means of relative words and syllables
the ultimate is realized to be inexpressible,
therefore, the relative and ultimate are connected.

This is identical to what Nāgarjuna states about the relation between the relative and ultimate in MMK. Also the Kun byed rgyal po states:

By means of both the ultimate and the relative
both the definitive scriptures and the provisional scriptures
are explained with example, meaning, logical sign, and argument.

florin said:
Sure .But for me  these pasages only  make sense with regards to pointing out the connection between the teoretical ideas presented during the oral transmission, where certain ultimate truths are expressed and the ultimate meaning of our nature and how one can connect these ideas with actual experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is the point.


florin said:
Since" impermanence " is a concept of sutra i do not see how the above passages point to a connection between conceptuality and the so called experience of "impermanence".

Malcolm wrote:
The idea that polarities such as impermanent and permanent are concepts that are not ultimately valid is also a key tenet of Mahāyāna sūtras, and Dzogchen does not go beyond Mahāyāna in this respect.


florin said:
I do not see how the conceptuaity of " impermanence" can lead one beyond itself where one experiences "impermanence "  as "impermanence" without the involvement of the partial mistaken apprehension by the deluded mind .

Malcolm wrote:
You are not distinguishing the two kinds of relative. A mind perceiving a conventional truth may be confused about essences (but not necessarily), but it is not confused about aspects.  A delusion is confusion about aspects, such as perceiving two moons in the sky, or seeing white as yellow, and so on.

Because a mind that is not confused about aspects may be led to realization through words and meanings, there is no reason to invalidate conventions such as impermanent and so on, since they validly describe conventional phenomena.

florin said:
What i am trying to say is  that "impermanence " becomes a caracteristic, an atribute and i dont see how one can escape that, so in the end impermanence remains a label.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, impermanence is a label we impose upon things we observe which undergo change-- anything that is a product. As long as we do not label impermanent things permanent, or permanent things impermanent, there should be no problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Umm, this website is based in the US, and libel charges are incredibly hard to bring in the US. It is not like England, etc.

Grigoris said:
This is quite irrelevant.  Just because it may difficult to be prosecuted for it, does not mean that a statement is not libelous.

Malcolm wrote:
Libel is a legal standard that must be met in a court of law. In other words, PC or anyone else must prove the statement damaged their reputation. In US law, that is very hard to prove, and there is no way any statement here could be construed as libel.

Since the statement as included in a report by a third party investigator, it is not libelous at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:
Grigoris said:
Be warned:  generally these discussions become a festival of rumor and gossip, often crossing the line into libel.

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, this website is based in the US, and libel charges are incredibly hard to bring in the US. It is not like England, etc.


For context, this is the charge listed in the third report:
" I was raped at the age of 21 by a Shambhala Center director. This led to a pregnancy and then a miscarriage. About a year later I approached Pema Chödrön to disclose what had happened. As a respected practitioner and also as a woman, it was my expectation that I would find an ally.
Instead, Ani Pema told me bluntly, "I don't believe you." I was shattered. After further discussion with her, Ani Pema then said, “Well, I wasn't there, but if it's true I suspect that you were into it."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Right, this is a consistent account in the reports. That does not mean he is impugning PC directly.

Grigoris said:
Impugning indirectly.  Hinting at.  Alluding to.  Indicating.  Suggesting. Etc...

Malcolm wrote:
So what? PC was directly accused in the reports of telling some women who complained to her of being sexually assaulted by a teacher that the women in question enjoyed her assault, after first denying that a sexual assault could have happened. If true, seriously gross. In any case, Emmets point stands -- everyone who is in the upper echelon of Shambhala International is going to have their reputation damaged. As it stands now, the organization is damaged goods.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:
Grigoris said:
the consistent accounts of several others of how high-ranking officials in the organization allegedly aided and abetted in a pattern of exploitation and cover-up, including sexual assault and statutory rape

Malcolm wrote:
Right, this is a consistent account in the reports. That does not mean he is impugning PC directly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Latest report on Shambala abuse just released.
Content:
Emmet said:
What do folks think about the comments related to Pema Chodron...
Dana is not confined to dropping a dollar in the box at the door to the practice hall, it's also generosity of spirit; giving people the benefit of the doubt, and thinking the best of them. Private conversations are impossible to corroborate, and I'm committed to the old-fashioned notion that someone's innocent until proven guilty. What I find disturbing about this is when considered in toto; the consistent accounts of several others of how high-ranking officials in the organization allegedly aided and abetted in a pattern of exploitation and cover-up, including sexual assault and statutory rape, how several accounts spoke of this as an "open secret" in the upper echelons of the organization, and Ethan Nichtern's statement detailing how promotion and advancement within the organization was inextricably linked to personal loyalty and devotion, not to the organization, but to the leader himself; a cult of personality. Pema Chodron is a high-ranking leader in that organization, and innocent or guilty, when this shit hits the fan everyone in that inner circle is going to get splattered, justly or otherwise. If nothing else, it's illustrative of how the consequences of our actions can ripple outward on a macro scale, having unintended consequences for good or ill far beyond our limited knowledge and immediate circle.

Grigoris said:
So you are accusing Venerable Pema Chodronin covering up the abuse?  That's a pretty serious accusation.

Now back it up.

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty sure he is only saying that everyone in the upper reaches of the Shambhala organization is going to suffer a hit to their reputations, whether directly involved or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:


Bundokji said:
You cannot experience impermanence directly...

Malcolm wrote:
Of course one can.

florin said:
And i thought permanence-impermanence are conceptual obscurations only.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on whether one is discussing things from the point of view of the relative or the ultimate. And before you go tossing out the two truths, the Mdo bcu states:

By means of relative words and syllables
the ultimate is realized to be inexpressible,
therefore, the relative and ultimate are connected.

This is identical to what Nāgarjuna states about the relation between the relative and ultimate in MMK. Also the Kun byed rgyal po states:

By means of both the ultimate and the relative
both the definitive scriptures and the provisional scriptures
are explained with example, meaning, logical sign, and argument.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:


Bundokji said:
You cannot experience impermanence directly...

Malcolm wrote:
Of course one can.

Bundokji said:
Is not the mind that moves?

Malcolm wrote:
Why is mental movement a problem in experiencing impermanence directly?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:


Bundokji said:
You cannot experience impermanence directly...

Malcolm wrote:
Of course one can.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Realization
Content:
Rick said:
What does it mean to 'realize' something?

Malcolm wrote:
Understanding + experience = realization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 28th, 2018 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: What Shamatha tradition best prepares one for Dzogchen?
Content:
LoveFromColorado said:
Shamatha/Vipassana are found in other spiritual traditions (Hindu, Jain, etc.).  That said, I don't think it is counterproductive necessarily to engage in these practices but (in my opinion) is not a prerequisite or a mandatory thing.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but  a correction is in order here. Vipaśyāna is strictly Buddhist. And since you are conversing within the Tibetan tradition, you should not mix up Theravada Abhidhamma concepts with their counterparts in Sarvastivāda, which forms the basis of the Indo-Tibetan tradition.

Kamalaśilas Middle Bhavanakrama, this the presentation most commonly referenced in Tibetan Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 27th, 2018 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: What Shamatha tradition best prepares one for Dzogchen?
Content:
falcon said:
Thank you for the thorough response.

Any contending word to that of Alan Wallace's stance that the Vissudhimagga should be the standard?

Malcolm wrote:
The Visuddhimagga should not, under any circumstance, be regarded as the standard for defining these things In Dzogchen teachings. Dzogchen is squarely within the Sarvastivada/Sautrantika Abdhidharmakośa tradition. Therefore, it's definitions are the ones salient to Dzogchen practice and concepts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 27th, 2018 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: What Shamatha tradition best prepares one for Dzogchen?
Content:
weitsicht said:
What is that?
Vitarka -- initial engagement

Malcolm wrote:
Initial engagement with the object of meditation, i.e., vitarka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 27th, 2018 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and psychedelics?
Content:
Matylda said:
I think teachers involved in this are complete idiots..

Malcolm wrote:
I agree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 27th, 2018 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
These are part of throwing karma...

Grigoris said:
What is the Sanskrit term for this?...and all nonvirtue ripens as pain in the body and all virtue ripens as pleasant feelings in the mind.
Do you have an abhidharma source for this please?

And what, on the basis of this theory, is the source of pleasant bodily feeling then?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you can find this in the Ahidharmakoshabhasyam, pg. 632, Poussin/Pruden:

4:57 Sensation, the result of a good action free from vitarka, is exclusively mental. 
Sensation, the result of a bad action, is exclusively physical.

Vasubandhu explains very clearly that mental distress is actually caused by imbalances of the elements and humors where not caused by demonic forces.

Also see verses 4:45-49, from page 620 onward.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 27th, 2018 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is just not how karmavipaka works.

Grigoris said:
I am talking about reality, not theory.  Are you saying that you do not experience bodily pleasure or mental suffering?  Do these experiences not arise as a consequence of karmavipaka?

Isn't beauty, long life and good health (bodily attributes) a consequence of positive karma vipaka?

Malcolm wrote:
These are part of throwing karma, but the actual sensations we feel in these existences that are a result of karma are differentiated on the basis of whether their cause is virtuous or nonvirtue, and all nonvirtue ripens as pain in the body and all virtue ripens as pleasant feelings in the mind.

This is one reason that in Tibetan Medicine, for example, mental suffering is dealt with as a physical problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 27th, 2018 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
IN general, karma that ripens on the body is only nonvirtuous karma, resulting in pain. The karma that ripens on the mind is only positive karma, resulting in happiness.

Grigoris said:
I don't know about you, but I often feel bodily pleasure and mental suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just not how karmavipaka works.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 27th, 2018 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:
Jeff H said:
My understanding of the teaching on karma is that the primary factor is one’s state of mind at the moment of death, compounded by the habitual actions and predominant experiences over one’s lifetime. When LZR teaches about death, he advises us to make our loved ones’ passing as calm and positive as we can for that reason.

I have been involved in euthanizing a cat and my observation was that it was done with the utmost respect. She had people who cared for her around her helping to make her feel at ease and I saw no evidence that the lethal injection was anything but painless, gentle, and swift.

Is it not better for their karma that a being should die in a peaceful state of mind than wracked with physical pain?

Also, no one addressed Greg’s point about easing physical pain in general. If the reason not to euthanize is that this cycle of the being’s ripening karma must be allowed to play out “naturally”, then why is it ok to intervene in any suffering situation?

Malcolm wrote:
IN general, karma that ripens on the body is only nonvirtuous karma, resulting in pain. The karma that ripens on the mind is only positive karma, resulting in happiness.

I am pretty sure that a cat suffering from a great amount of pain, near death but not quite there, would still resist your attempts to kill it, as would every creature.

So in general, I am pretty sure euthanizing pets, for example, is not a course I would recommend. However, if an animal is rabid, there is little choice in the matter. I don't think there is any reasonable objection to killing diseased animals or animals that carry diseases harmful to humans, such as mosquitos, ticks, and so on. This is just common sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Catuṣkoṭi analysis used by the Buddha himself
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
Two or more interpenetrating dhaatava.h  are characteristic by being both identical and different.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they would have to be neither the same nor different.

Coëmgenu said:
Either description is valid IMO. R is not B and B is not R for the ends of the line segments that do not intersect. At the intersection there is no difference between R and B. Representing the area of intersecting congruency as P/purple is a graphical convention. It is both R and B.

So it's really up to the perceiver to decide where the identity of the intersecting dhaatava.h is measured from. Do we look at the whole and decide that "same" does not apply because of the differentiated ends of the segments? Do we look at the whole and decide that "different" does not apply because of their congruent segments? Do we look at the whole and decide that "not same" does not apply because substantial parts of it are the same? Do we look at the whole and decide that "not different" does not apply because the two segments are different?

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhist thinking, continuity is only accounted for by the logic of "neither the same nor different." For example, if a seed as utterly different than a sprout, there is no causal relationship between the two; so they cannot be utterly different. Since sprout will not arise if it is the same as the seed, a seed and a sprout cannot be the same.

It doesn't apply to drawings of overlapping red and blue lines.

With respect to Ziporyn, I find his brand of rhetoric tedious and unconvincing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Catuṣkoṭi analysis used by the Buddha himself
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
Two or more interpenetrating dhaatava.h  are characteristic by being both identical and different.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they would have to be neither the same nor different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Catuṣkoṭi analysis used by the Buddha himself
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
All that nonsense above the is leftovers from me trying to figure out what tenfold interpenetration is actually supposed to "be".

Malcolm wrote:
One moment of thought, or so I've been told.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:



kirtu said:
Unfortunately Karmapa OTD does not live in the United States and he's not a vet.

In the United States there is practically no effective administration of pain killers for humans.  This is because many medical personnel are afraid of creating an addictive situation (even in the case of terminal illness!!!!).  This is an objective fact (although it has begun to change somewhat).

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by effective?

kirtu said:
Yes.  That's quite the question isn't it?  Except to many patients (who haven't been listened to).
The over adminstration of pain management medicines such as Oxycontin has created an wide spread opioid addiction epidemic in the US, it is only with the past 5 years that medical personal have started to severely limit the amount and duration in the administration of pain management meds.
That's not what happened.  For decades, maybe generations, doctors restricted pain medication severely in apparently most cases (at least a lot of cases) acting out of skepticism and fear.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they saw that a certain percentage of people on opiate-based medicines developed serious addictions.


kirtu said:
Then we had a change in treatment followed by Mammon worshipers flooding patients with a vast oversupply which is where your comment comes in.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in the mid 90's when Oxycontin was advertised as nonaddictive and treatment protocols in medicine began to view pain as bad.

kirtu said:
We still do not generally have effective pain management in the United States.  The entire subject is controversial (except for the fact that the Mammon worshipers pumped up another drug epidemic).

Just one paper (amoungst many) to back up my basic argument that pain treatment is substandard : http://www.jabfm.org/content/14/3/211.full.pdf
Barriers to Effective Pain Management
Undertreatment of Pain

In a recent study of 805 chronic pain sufferers, it was reported that more than 50% found it necessary to change physicians in their quest for pain relief. Specific reasons for changing physicians included lack of physicians’ willingness to treat the pain aggressively, failure to take the pain seriously, and lack of knowledge about pain management.3 In a study of 1,308 outpatients with metastatic cancer,11 67% (871) of the patients reported that they had pain or had taken analgesic drugs daily during the week preceding the study, and 36% (475) had pain severe enough to impair their ability to function. Forty-two percent of those with pain were not given adequate analgesic therapy. A discrepancy between patient and physician in judging the severity of the patient’s pain was predictive of inadequate pain management. One third of practitioners reported that they would wait until the patient had less than 6 months to live before starting the maximal tolerated analgesia for severe pain.
Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

From the CDC:
Sales of prescription opioids in the U.S. nearly quadrupled from 1999 to 2014,1 but there has not been an overall change in the amount of pain Americans report.2,3 During this time period, prescription opioid overdose deaths increased similarly.

The supply of prescription opioids remains high in the U.S.4 An estimated 1 out of 5 patients with non-cancer pain or pain-related diagnoses are prescribed opioids in office-based settings.3 From 2007 – 2012, the rate of opioid prescribing has steadily increased among specialists more likely to manage acute and chronic pain. Prescribing rates are highest among pain medicine (49%), surgery (37%), and physical medicine/rehabilitation (36%). However, primary care providers account for about half of opioid pain relievers dispensed. 3
https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/prescribing.html


kirtu said:
MONDAY, July 31, 2017 (HealthDay News) -- More than one out of three average Americans used a prescription opioid painkiller in 2015, despite growing concerns these medicines are promoting widespread addiction and overdose deaths, a new federal study shows.

Nearly 92 million U.S. adults, or about 38 percent of the population, took a legitimately prescribed  opioid like OxyContin or Percocet in 2015, according to results from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health.

"The proportion of adults who receive these medications in any year seemed startling to me," said study co-author Dr. Wilson Compton, deputy director of the U.S. National Institute on Drug Abuse.

"It's an awful lot of people who take these, mostly for medical purposes, but within that a significant percentage end up misusing them," he added.

The survey found that 11.5 million people, or nearly 5 percent of the population, misused prescription opioids they'd obtained through illicit means.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/news/20170731/doctors-still-overprescribing-opioids-in-us#1

So, I am still not sure what you mean by effective, but since on out of three Americans used a prescription opioid in 2015...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, their pain does not stop. Being in the bardo is generally a painful experience for most beings, apart from practitioners. It is filled with terror, fear, and panic. You are just sending such animals from one painful experience into another.

Grigoris said:
Pain is a body sensation, it ends when the body stops functioning.  Suffering is a mental sensation, it ends with Buddhahood.  A being suffering bodily pain that is euthanised and a being suffering bodily pain which is allowed to die in pain will both still suffer the bardo.  The difference between the two is that one will not suffer bodily pain (and the suffering associated with it) as long as the other.

Malcolm wrote:
Killing causes physical pain. One has a body in the bardo. That also experiences pain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
If animals are in pain we can administer pain killers.

kirtu said:
Unfortunately Karmapa OTD does not live in the United States and he's not a vet.

In the United States there is practically no effective administration of pain killers for humans.  This is because many medical personnel are afraid of creating an addictive situation (even in the case of terminal illness!!!!).  This is an objective fact (although it has begun to change somewhat).

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by effective?

The over adminstration of pain management medicines such as Oxycontin has created an wide spread opioid addiction epidemic in the US, it is only with the past 5 years that medical personal have started to severely limit the amount and duration in the administration of pain management meds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, we are putting them our of our current misery.

Grigoris said:
Not necessarily. Their misery does not cease, it only increases.
Their pain stops, their suffering continues.  We don't know if it increases or decreases.

Malcolm wrote:
No, their pain does not stop. Being in the bardo is generally a painful experience for most beings, apart from practitioners. It is filled with terror, fear, and panic. You are just sending such animals from one painful experience into another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:
Emmet said:
Am I prolonging life, or am I prolonging needless suffering? I know nothing about past or future lives or the karmic debt of swallows, but I've seen an awful lot of suffering and death. I believe that sometimes under some circumstances my Mahayana vow to save all beings might be best practiced by saving them from any further suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
The idea that we can save any being from further suffering is something of a delusion. When we euthanize an animal, we are not putting them out of their misery, we are putting them out of our own misery.

Grigoris said:
We are putting them out of their current misery.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we are putting them our of our current misery. Their misery does not cease, it only increases.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 26th, 2018 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: "Mercy" killing of a dying animal - moral doubts
Content:
Emmet said:
Am I prolonging life, or am I prolonging needless suffering? I know nothing about past or future lives or the karmic debt of swallows, but I've seen an awful lot of suffering and death. I believe that sometimes under some circumstances my Mahayana vow to save all beings might be best practiced by saving them from any further suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
The idea that we can save any being from further suffering is something of a delusion. When we euthanize an animal, we are not putting them out of their misery, we are putting them out of our own misery.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 25th, 2018 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Catuṣkoṭi analysis used by the Buddha himself
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Incidentally, the "Noble Silence" itself is position 4, the eel-wriggler's.

The difference is that the amaravikṣepa has no thesis, and the Buddha, allegedly, has a thesis, which is dependent origination.

That is really the only thing separating the Buddhas and the eel-wrigglers.

Of course, above, when I said, "the Buddha, allegedly, has a thesis," the "a position, Vacchagotta, is something that the Tathāgata has done away with" (severe paraphrase) quote came to mind.

Is "no thesis" itself a thesis?

Wayfarer said:
I presume you’re familiar with the fact that Nāgārjuna says that he maintains no thesis of his own? [Which is the point of ‘the emptiness of emptiness’.]  The point of the tetralemma is wholly deconstructive i.e. to show the contradictions in the opponent’s view. But, he says, this can be done without actually advancing a view of one’s own. Or so I understand.

Malcolm wrote:
The proposition to which Nāgārjuna was referring was a proposition about inherent existence, svabhāva, in the Vigrahavyavartani.

The passage follows an argument where Nāgārjuna is proving the nonexistence of the inherent existence Nāgārjun's non-Buddhist opponent is proposing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 25th, 2018 at 10:36 AM
Title: Re: Apang Terton texts - English Translation?
Content:
TrimePema said:
Does anybody know of an english translation of the text containing the Apang Terton 7 line prayer practices?

I have received the wang, lung, and tri from HHST but some ritual aspects were not fully explained, although he said they were explained in the lung (I figure this means if we're serious we should just read the text).
I know the tibetan text can be purchased from Vimala and then can be translated by someone-somewhere-maybe-if-I-pay-them but am hoping someone-somewhere has already done this.

Feel free to PM if necessary.

Malcolm wrote:
Lama Karma just did a retreat on this at Tara Mabdaja. Contact them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 25th, 2018 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur
Content:
Arupajhana7 said:
Thank you so much everyone for all of the replies.

It seems that many people trust Mingyur in particular and the Tergar community in general.
.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, we do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 25th, 2018 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Project Sunshine Phase 3 Final Report (Shambhala/Sakyong Mipham/etc)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It looks like some people may be going to jail over this, if any of the allegations can be proven in court. As it stands, I don't see how Shambhala survives this without firing Mukpo, etc.

Karma Dorje said:
It's hard to see how they survive even if they fire Mukpo. If any civil suits are launched they could end up bankrupt.

Not to mention the entire Shambala organization is premised on a "monarch" that is now radioactive. They can't just 'splain their way out of this one.

Malcolm wrote:
True.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 25th, 2018 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Project Sunshine Phase 3 Final Report (Shambhala/Sakyong Mipham/etc)
Content:
PeterC said:
I suspect what prompted the change in tactics was the report explicitly naming members of the cabal, rather than just pointing the finger at Mukpo - I.e. it finally sunk in that they may face liability too, and hence the pretence of ‘peace and reconciliation’ was dropped.

TheSynergist said:
Yeah, this is what I'm what I'm thinking, too. The enablers in the org were likely hoping to throw Mipham under the bus and move on, but now they are worried that might not be good enough.

Malcolm wrote:
It looks like some people may be going to jail over this, if any of the allegations can be proven in court. As it stands, I don't see how Shambhala survives this without firing Mukpo, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: TIPS? ADVICE? Leaving one sangha, looking for another, interested in Tergar/Mingyur
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is a Tergar group in Groton, Ma.

https://tergar.org/communities-and-practice-groups/find-a-center-or-group/groton-practice-group/

Description of Tergar curriculum.

https://tergar.org/programs/what-is-the-path-of-liberation/



Arupajhana7 said:
A former Shambhala member here,

I am fortunate that although I was close to taking Samaya with the Sakyong, I had not yet done so.  So I am spared the devastating questions about whether I would be breaking Samaya by leaving the community. (Though i hope those I know who did are able to leave)

So I want to know what people think about changing to a new community. What should I consider?  Have you ever done this?  How long should one wait before diving all the way in to a new sangha?

I got the online Dzogchen transmission from Namkai Norbu some years back, but I also appreciate a structured approach. I recently restarted doing the very short daily practice he recommends to keep the connection to the transmission. But I am interested in doing a traditional Ngyondro.

I am impressed by Mingyur Rinpoche, both his history of practice, and his strong statements against abusive teachers. I think this is one of the main things I will be looking for now, I really only want to study with a teacher who has made strong statements against abuse and not made any that could be considered a defense of abusers (which is how I interpreted some of Dzongsar Kyentse's statements, for example).

I live in Massachusetts but not near any Tergar community. There are Zen and Insight Meditation places near me. Would doing Tergar's online program be legitimate?  And once I get to the Vajrayana, can anyone tell me if the Sadhanas will be in English?  I feel like this is important.  To understand what I will be saying during a Sadhana practice, excluding the mantras.
I would probably be able to make trips to see Mingyur Rinpoche in NYC when he travels through once in a while.

Thank you!
Any tips and help will be much appreciated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Project Sunshine Phase 3 Final Report (Shambhala/Sakyong Mipham/etc)
Content:
smcj said:
At this point I think it safe to say the courts will have a great deal of influence on how the Dharma comes to the West.

Malcolm wrote:
The state has always had a major influence over Buddhist schools in every country in which Buddhism has spread, including kingdoms in India.

The Tibetan state chose Vajrayāna over Chinese Mahāyāna. Various states in Southeast Asia chose Theravada over Mahāyāna. The Chinese Gvt. for centuries regulated entry into monastic life as well as the monasteries. The same is true in Japan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 7:00 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Project Sunshine Phase 3 Final Report (Shambhala/Sakyong Mipham/etc)
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Shambhala has issued a statement.
In a statement Thursday, Shambhala International rejected the report's findings.

"These allegations are not only unfounded, but they each are based on speculative and unsubstantiated claims made by a single unnamed source," the Buddhist organization said of one series of allegations in the report.

"For Project Sunshine to publish such salacious and defamatory information is grossly irresponsible."

The statement is a departure from the organization's response to earlier reports, which recognized that Shambhala was part of a "broader cultural reckoning in contemporary society."
https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/news-story/8856866-new-allegations-against-buddhist-leader/

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. So what. They cant be believed. Mukpo needs to be investigated by US authorities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
Aryjna said:
There's all kinds of shit in this one. Some of them, which are not sex-related, would be quite funny under different circumstances.

Edit: A lot of the material is really terrible. It is blatantly obvious that there is not the slightest room for doubt that he is a terrible choice for a teacher and should be in jail.

Malcolm wrote:
Not only is Mukpo going down, but if true, so is Pema Chodron:
" I was raped at the age of 21 by a Shambhala Center director. This led to a pregnancy and then a miscarriage. About a year later I approached Pema Chödrön to disclose what had happened. As a respected practitioner and also as a woman, it was my expectation that I would find an ally.

Instead, Ani Pema told me bluntly, "I don't believe you." I was shattered. After further discussion with her, Ani Pema then said, “Well, I wasn't there, but if it's true I suspect that you were into it."

To be not believed, and then to have it suggested to me that I was being untruthful about something so difficult, was retraumatizing to say the least. To this date, and despite having had opportunities, Pema Chödrön has never apologized to me for these comments.

What I would like to know is: what are Pema Chödrön's intentions in joining the Transition Team? If other survivors come forth with their stories, will she believe them? Will she discourage others from speaking out? Will she suggest to others that they secretly enjoyed it?

Through speaking out, it is my intention and wish that this may incite meaningful change and be of benefit to all beings."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: Materials on Namchö Zhitro
Content:
Dharmaswede said:
Ah, ok. I am curious about the practice because Lama Tsultrim Allione will give transmission for it online on September 9.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN has a whole book on it. If you have ever attended a CHNN retreat, you already have it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: Materials on Namchö Zhitro
Content:
Dharmaswede said:
As the subject line says... I am looking for materials on the Namchö Zhitro.

Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
The practice is only a single folio long, and it is mainly practiced in Dzogchen Community.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Sapan on distinctions and diversity
Content:
passel said:
Ok. Wouldn’t he have a problem w any assertion that didn’t observe his criteria for canonicity?  So any terma? Why limit the criticism to the KC?

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't. But the KC is the only terma that I have read that addresses the issue of the authenticity of termas in general in the way that it does.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Jerusalem syndrome
Content:
cyril said:
Would it be accurate to ascribe this type of madness to gyalpo provocation?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely a kind of provocation. Fascination with purity, etc., indicates devabhutagraha, i.e., possession by demonic devas.

cyril said:
So, what could possibly induce the provocation? Are those devas offended in any way, do they have an agenda, or one could be affected simply by being within their sphere of influence?

Malcolm wrote:
The general cause of provocation illnesses are non-virtuous actions, remaining isolated, etc. there are many causes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Sapan on distinctions and diversity
Content:



Pero said:
What's wrong with Konchok Chidu?


Malcolm wrote:
The eight chapter tantra in the Konchok Chidu root texts asserts that Padmasambhava's treasure teachings are better than translations from Sanskrit since they are the direct voice of the sambhogkāya in Tibetan language.

passel said:
Do Sayapas practice Konchok Chidu? I thought it was a Nyingma terma cycle, so wonder what the problem would be for a Sakyapa- wouldn’t they just expect that non-Sakya teachings would not meet Sakya criteria for authorship?

Malcolm wrote:
I am saying that Sapan would have a problem with this assertion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: Jerusalem syndrome
Content:
cyril said:
Would it be accurate to ascribe this type of madness to gyalpo provocation?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely a kind of provocation. Fascination with purity, etc., indicates devabhutagraha, i.e., possession by demonic devas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: When is Bardo 1st day?
Content:



Miroku said:
What about khorwa tongtrug? Andy why can Zhitro work only for people who have done some Zhitro? Shouldn't it work as purification and also giving them a contact with the teachings?

Malcolm wrote:
Imagine reading the wrathful deities to your old catholic granny -- she will freak out.

Miroku said:
Oh yeah. Also I probably misread it. Here we are talking about recitations of bardo prayers and Barö thödol, not the practice of Zhitro right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, we are. The Bardo Thodol is a book to be read for practitioners of less capacity to ensure they take rebirth in the nirmanakāya buddhafields.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
chimechodra said:
For anyone who is curious, Project Sunshine just released a third report. It's really bad. Especially this part:
During the summers of 2004-2005, Ann worked in the Sakyong’s household at SMC. Where she was working, Ann had a clear view of the people who came to wait for their appointments with the Sakyong. Ann saw lots of people come, but she began to notice that there were parents bringing young teenage girls. The girls seemed nervous. The parents occasionally said something like, “This is such an honor for you to have this experience.” Then a kusung would come for the girl and the parents would leave. Ann worked directly below the Sakyong’s bedroom and since there was no air conditioning, in the summer the windows were open. Ann could hear what sounded distinctly like sexual encounters.
There were talks of having him return after his 1 year break from teaching. I don't think he'll be coming back from this.

Malcolm wrote:
These are serious felonies. If true, he is facing a lot of time in jail, eight years for each charge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 24th, 2018 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Sapan on distinctions and diversity
Content:
dechenpa said:
Sapan's consistent point is to purify corruptions of the dharma by always pointing back to the sutras, sastras and tantras as sources of truth and exposing whatever does not appear in those sources as Tibetan innovations.

Malcolm wrote:
One wonders what Sapan would have made of Konchok Chidu, etc. And Lamdre itself is not immune to charges of Tibetan innovation.

Pero said:
What's wrong with Konchok Chidu?


Malcolm wrote:
The eight chapter tantra in the Konchok Chidu root texts asserts that Padmasambhava's treasure teachings are better than translations from Sanskrit since they are the direct voice of the sambhogkāya in Tibetan language.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 23rd, 2018 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Sapan on distinctions and diversity
Content:
dechenpa said:
Sapan's consistent point is to purify corruptions of the dharma by always pointing back to the sutras, sastras and tantras as sources of truth and exposing whatever does not appear in those sources as Tibetan innovations.

Malcolm wrote:
One wonders what Sapan would have made of Konchok Chidu, etc. And Lamdre itself is not immune to charges of Tibetan innovation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 23rd, 2018 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: When is Bardo 1st day?
Content:
pemachophel said:
Tulku Yeshi Gyamtsho said a couple of months ago that reciting the Bardo prayers for someone else requires (at least) lung to be effective. Khenchen Tsultrim Lodro says that one should also have done ngondro and received (Zhi Thro) empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
And ChNN states that in order for such recitations to be of benefit to the deceased, the deceased should have done some Zhitro practice in this life.

Changchog rites are a more effective way to assist those people in the bardo who have done no practice.

Miroku said:
What about khorwa tongtrug? Andy why can Zhitro work only for people who have done some Zhitro? Shouldn't it work as purification and also giving them a contact with the teachings?

Malcolm wrote:
Imagine reading the wrathful deities to your old catholic granny -- she will freak out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 23rd, 2018 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: When is Bardo 1st day?
Content:
pemachophel said:
Tulku Yeshi Gyamtsho said a couple of months ago that reciting the Bardo prayers for someone else requires (at least) lung to be effective. Khenchen Tsultrim Lodro says that one should also have done ngondro and received (Zhi Thro) empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
And ChNN states that in order for such recitations to be of benefit to the deceased, the deceased should have done some Zhitro practice in this life.

Changchog rites are a more effective way to assist those people in the bardo who have done no practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 23rd, 2018 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Sadhana
Content:
Grigoris said:
From the introduction to the translation of Tantra of the Great Liberation (Mahanirvana Tantra) by Arthur Avalon:

"Whilst sadhana is, as stated a process for the stimulation of sattva guna (constructive qualities), it is evident that one form of it is not suitable to all.  It must be adapted to the spiritual condition of the sishya (disciple), otherwise it will cause injury instead of good.  Therefore persons who are not competent may not only be fruitless of any good result, but may even lead to evils which sadhana as a general principle is designed to prevent.  Therefore it is said that it is better to follow one's own dharma than that, however exalted it be, of another."

Malcolm wrote:
What does this have to so with Buddhist sadhana practice?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 23rd, 2018 at 12:22 PM
Title: Re: When is Bardo 1st day?
Content:
Tenma said:
What does one do on the last day of the bardo?  What prayers does one recite?

Malcolm wrote:
There is an entire literature devoted to just that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 23rd, 2018 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: When is Bardo 1st day?
Content:
Tenma said:
Is it the day one dies?  Or the day after?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, the third day after outer respiration cease, inner respiration ceases. In the case of some yogis however, inner respiration can continue for quite a number of days. When the inner respiration ceases, a tiny bit of mucous and blood leave the nostrils, signifying that one's consciousness has separated from the body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 22nd, 2018 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Noriaki cites this example, from the Shōbōgenzō shizen bhikkhu, as presented in Pruning the Bodhi Tree, pg. 123:
Some people say that, because the enlightenment of the Buddhas and Tathagatas encompass the whole world, even a speck of dust manifests that enlightenment. Because that enlightenment encompasses both subject and the object, mountains, rivers,  earth, sun, moon, stars, and the four illusions and three poisons express it as well. To see mountains and rivers is to see the Tathagathas, and the four illusions and three poisons are the Buddha-dharma. To see a speck of dust is to see the dharma-dhatu and each spontaneous act is a manifestation of supreme enlightenment. They say this is the great understanding and call it a Patriarchal transmission. In latter-day Sung China, those who subscribe to this view are as numerous as rice plants, hemp. bamboo, and reeds. Their [religious] lineage is unknown, but it is clear they do not understand Buddhism.
All and all an interesting book, quite relevant to the present discussion.
...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 22nd, 2018 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
passel said:
CB folks see original enlightenment (hongaku) and b.n. of the insentient as Panglossian justifications for fascism.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, their critique has echoes of Adorno.

Another interesting thing they do is try to show is that Dogen had a change of heart and rejected hongaku and BNI late in his life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 22nd, 2018 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Sentient Light said:
This is a very long article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on Tiantai Buddhism that is quite thorough and good: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/buddhism-tiantai/

It showed me that the whole concept of the Buddhanature of insentient beings

Malcolm wrote:
If you read the Critical Buddhist folks, they are convinced that doctrines like this are completely outside of pale of Buddhadharma and open the doorway to all kinds of deviations.

With respect to Zhanran's blanket identification of buddhadhātu with suchness, this presents some critical problems as well, not least of which is that BNI categorically denied in the Nirvana Sūtra, despite his attempt to justify it based on the same sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 22nd, 2018 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Incidentally, we can call this a catuṣkoti; but we cannot call it a tetralemma, because one is not forced to pick one of these four alternatives. For example, a dilemma is where one must choose two different choices, one to the exclusion of the other.

Coëmgenu said:
Then why do we call the so-called "negative tetralemma" a tetralemma?

We don't choose one of these options from the list:

nasvato
nāpiparato
nadvābhyāṃ
nāpyahetutaḥ

Malcolm wrote:
We do so because long ago a western translator was struggling for a term to describe a four-fold negation, and that is what he or she came up with.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 22nd, 2018 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
All in all, it offers an elegant solution, but if I may nitpick this one point:

The commentary says "everything is true" because the Buddha explains the invariable characteristic of absence.

Is this really an example of "everything is true"? Is the invariance of this characteristic of everything the same thing as everything being "true" in and of itself? And if the invariance is the only thing that is true, when why say "everything" is true?

Malcolm wrote:
It is true that everything lacks a self. That is the truth of everything.

Coëmgenu said:
It is true that everything is false. That is what I'm seeing that as, essentially.

It's coherent, but it's not really "everything is true". It's "everything is untrue is true".


Malcolm wrote:
You are missing the broader point here: which is the abandonment of the afflictive obscuration that results from imputing a self onto conventionally valid phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 22nd, 2018 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Further, "everything is true" is valid because the Bhagavan explains the invariable characteristic of the absence of I and mine as knowable in order to abandon the afflictive obscuration.

Coëmgenu said:
All in all, it offers an elegant solution, but if I may nitpick this one point:

The commentary says "everything is true" because the Buddha explains the invariable characteristic of absence.

Is this really an example of "everything is true"? Is the invariance of this characteristic of everything the same thing as everything being "true" in and of itself? And if the invariance is the only thing that is true, when why say "everything" is true?

Malcolm wrote:
It is true that everything lacks a self. That is the truth of everything.

Incidentally, we can call this a catuṣkoti; but we cannot call it a tetralemma, because one is not forced to pick one of these four alternatives. For example, a dilemma is where one must choose two different choices, one to the exclusion of the other.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 22nd, 2018 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Coëmgenu said:
You need to demonstrate that.

If you claim that these are a list of perspectives the Buddha has taught in very specific contexts the first step would be saying what those contexts were, and then maybe outlining which edifying results they lead to in their context, if you were feeling particularly generous.

Malcolm wrote:
You can read the commentaries on this point.

Coëmgenu said:
And they don't really say,


Malcolm wrote:
sarvaṃ tathyaṃ na vā tathyaṃ tathyaṃ cātathyameva ca| 

naivātathyaṃ naiva tathyametadbuddhānuśāsanam


They do. For example, the Akutobhya states:
What is the way of explaining in mundane convention? It is explained here:

Everything is true; untrue; true and untrue;
and neither true nor untrue: that is the Buddha's doctrine.

"Everything is true" because the sense bases such as the eye and so, and the objects such as form and so on, do not contradict the truth of convention (vyavahāra). "[Everything is] untrue" because based on ultimate truth, whatever appears does not exist in that way because its nature is totally unestablished like an illusion. "[Everything is] true and untrue" because of depending on the aspects of the two truths. "[Everything is] neither true nor untrue" because at the time of realization, the yogi does not conceptualize the suchness of all phenomena in all aspects.

Further, "everything is true" is valid because the Bhagavan explains the invariable characteristic of the absence of I and mine as knowable in order to abandon the afflictive obscuration. "[Everything is] untrue" is valid because he describes an agent who hears, reflects, and meditates because there is a characteristic of consciousness that is endowed with a sense of "I have" and a sense of "mine." "[Everything is] true and untrue" is valid with respect to the conventions of the world and the śāstras. "[Everything is] neither true nor untrue" is valid because the ultimate nonarising of all phenomena is the domain of both conceptual and nonconceptual consciousnesses, however, any entities discriminated as false and discriminated as true do not exist that way.

"That is the doctrine of the Buddha" means whatever teaching is introduced by those four steps in order to truly obtain the benefit of sentient beings, that is a teaching by the Bhagavān Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 22nd, 2018 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Queequeg said:
FYI

https://northwestern.academia.edu/JianeShi

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, thanks. I've read those.

This is the problem:

Among the Chinese Buddhist thinkers, Jingxi Zhanran (711-782) in the Tiantai School is the strongest advocate of insentient beings possessing Buddha-nature. He provides his rationale  primarily from the perspective of the all-pervasive quality of Buddha-nature, which he considers synonymous with suchness.
This is where Zhanran goes off course.


Queequeg said:
Zhiyi’s statements—“ignorance is identical to dharma nature” (wuming ji faxing 無明即法性) and “delusion is identical to
bodhi” (fannao ji puti 煩惱即菩提 )—are good examples of the third category of identity, although he never deals with the issue of insentient things’ Buddha-nature

Malcolm wrote:
Backs up my point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Simply put...

Malcolm wrote:
It is very clear that BNI is a later addition to the Tien tai school, and is not found in the writings of Zhi Yi.

You certainly have not shown that it can even be inferred from Zhi Yi's writings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
No, it's four lemmata. You can't just pretend something isn't what it is.

You need to argue your points.

Malcolm wrote:
No. Those four are not arguments in a proof. That is the point.

Coëmgenu said:
You need to demonstrate that.

If you claim that these are a list of perspectives the Buddha has taught in very specific contexts the first step would be saying what those contexts were, and then maybe outlining which edifying results they lead to in their context, if you were feeling particularly generous.

Malcolm wrote:
You can read the commentaries on this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 11:32 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
一切實非實 亦實亦非實
All is real, all is unreal, all is both real and unreal

非實非非實 是名諸佛法
All is neither real nor unreal, this is called all Buddhas' dharma

(T1564.23c16 Āryanāgārjunasya Mūlamadhyamakakārikāyām Ātmaparīkṣā)

Ven Zhiyi probably read this positive tetralemma from Ven Nāgārjuna.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not a tetralemma. It is a list of perspectives the.Buddha has taught in very specific contexts.

Coëmgenu said:
No, it's four lemmata. You can't just pretend something isn't what it is.

You need to argue your points.

Malcolm wrote:
No. Those four are not arguments in a proof. That is the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 11:08 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point of the tetralemma is not to make assertions.  All you done here is now make four equally faulty identity propositions "a rock is a; is not a; is both a and not a; and is neither a nor not a." This is just not how the tetralemma is used in Buddhist texts by anyone. The tetralemma, used properly, is a structured negation.

Coëmgenu said:
一切實非實 亦實亦非實
All is real, all is unreal, all is both real and unreal

非實非非實 是名諸佛法
All is neither real nor unreal, this is called all Buddhas' dharma

(T1564.23c16 Āryanāgārjunasya Mūlamadhyamakakārikāyām Ātmaparīkṣā)

Ven Zhiyi probably read this positive tetralemma from Ven Nāgārjuna.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not a tetralemma. It is a list of perspectives the.Buddha has taught in very specific contexts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 6:43 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:


Queequeg said:
Notwithstanding, the reference to the quote does address the issue of "rock is suchness"/"ultimate is relative".

If you think that passage is about samatha and vipasyana, you're missing the full import. Again, that passage is a conclusion of a significantly more involved argument. At this point, samatha and vipasyana are not distinguishable from reality itself... that's what the reference to thoughts integrated with reality refers to.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the passage is about śamatha and vipaśyāna unified from the start, not as in some presentations, one alternating with the other. In āryan equipoise, the mind cannot be distinguished from the ultimate which is its object.




Queequeg said:
The two truths are not independent realities— every object possesses two natures which are the objects of veridical and nonveridical cognitions respectively -- ultimate truth is the object of a veridical cognition of a given thing, such as a rock; relative truth is the object of a nonveridical cognition of a given thing, such as a rock (we don't need to address here the difference between conventional truth and delusion).
Relative truth is not nonveridical. It is relative.

Malcolm wrote:
A relative truth by definition is the object of a false or nonveridical cognition. A false cognition of what, you might ask? There are two kinds of false cognitions in this respect; false with respect to natures but not with respect to aspects. An example would be a realists assertion that atoms truly exist. Then there is delusion -- seeing two moons in the sky. Conventional truths are the former kind of relative truth.

Queequeg said:
For example, if one perceives the hardness and solidity of a rock, one is not perceiving the suchness of the rock. If one is perceiving the suchness of the rock, its emptiness, absence of inherent existence, etc., one is not perceiving the conventional attributes of a rock. The gist of the complete statement above is that when one is in āryan equipoise, all sense datum are perceptions of the ultimate nature of things. This is perfectly fine. No one can have a problem with this who understands Mahāyāna Buddhism.
In Zhiyi's Sudden and Perfect, the distinction you draw  between relative perceptions and ultimate perception are not there, they are simultaneous. This is what he means by the Middle - the complete identity of relative and absolute. To distinguish the two modes of perception is the definition of the Separate or Distinct Truth.
I understood the point of the passage. I agree with the point of the passage -- when one is āryan equipoise, all experience is the experience of the ultimate, smelling a flower, being hit on the head with a rock, and so on. In that equipoise, there is nothing that is not an experience of the ultimate. Some other schools may imagine that conventional things disappear in such an equipoise, but that is not correct. It still does not mean your identity proposition is defensible.
The identity is actually the point of one of the central Tiantai teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
As you state it, it is incoherent, since you keep making identity propositions which do not stand up to analysis.


Queequeg said:
The point of the tetralemma is not to make assertions.  All you done here is now make four equally faulty identity propositions "a rock is a; is not a; is both a and not a; and is neither a nor not a." This is just not how the tetralemma is used in Buddhist texts by anyone. The tetralemma, used properly, is a structured negation.
Indeed. After that this was my conclusion:
We come to the conclusion that rocks are inconceivable.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]


But that is not what happens in your use of the tetralemma, you just make four mutually exclusive statements. You do not end up in inconceivability, you end up with four propositions about a rock. You'd get laughed out of Nalanda.

Your use is like this: "A rock is water; a rock is not water; a rock is both water and not water; a rock is neither water nor not water." These are not four negations, which is what the tetralemma is supposed to be. These are four affirmations.

A proper tetralemma is, for example, the tetralemma that refutes arising in the MMK:

An existence does not arise from an existent. 
An existent does not arise from a nonexistent. 
A nonexistent does not arise from an existent. 
A nonexistent does not arise from a nonexistent. 
Where can there be arising?

This kind of properly formed tetralemma results inexpressibility/inconceivability because it leads one to it through negation, not through affirmation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"Whatever is made to be the object [of contemplation], it is the Middle; there is nothing that is not truly real [ultimate]."
-Mohezhikuan
By the way, there is no middle, asserting a middle is a mistaken conclusion.

Queequeg said:
LOL.

Really, you don't know what you are talking about at this point when it comes to Tiantai. Seriously.

Malcolm wrote:
Just saying, asserting a middle is an error.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When one take ultimate reality as one's contemplation, of course there is nothing that is not ultimate in that contemplation. That contemplation itself is focused upon the ultimate. Such sentiments as this are simply not controversial at all in Indian Buddhism, etc.

Queequeg said:
LOL. You're the one arguing with everything I write. I posted that quote in full in my second post in this thread and that frames everything I've written.
However, this passage cannot be used to support the contention, "a rock is suchness." This is merely a statement on unified śamatha and vipaśyāna.
I never made that claim. Please stop doing that....

Malcolm wrote:
Then there is no point to your bringing it into the discussion.



Queequeg said:
The two truths are not independent realities— every object possesses two natures which are the objects of veridical and nonveridical cognitions respectively -- ultimate truth is the object of a veridical cognition of a given thing, such as a rock; relative truth is the object of a nonveridical cognition of a given thing, such as a rock (we don't need to address here the difference between conventional truth and delusion).

For example, if one perceives the hardness and solidity of a rock, one is not perceiving the suchness of the rock. If one is perceiving the suchness of the rock, its emptiness, absence of inherent existence, etc., one is not perceiving the conventional attributes of a rock. The gist of the complete statement above is that when one is in āryan equipoise, all sense datum are perceptions of the ultimate nature of things. This is perfectly fine. No one can have a problem with this who understands Mahāyāna Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, Zhiyi does critique that approach.[/quote]

Which approach? The idea that the two truths not independent realities? That they different kinds of cognitions? Be more precise.

Queequeg said:
That passage we've both quoted actually critiques the proposition of a contemplation dwelling exclusively on the ultimate. Its an inferior contemplation that does not lead to awakening. Its not spelled out here - you'd have to refer to the context of that passage. That passage does not mean what you think it means.

Malcolm wrote:
I understood the point of the passage. I agree with the point of the passage -- when one is āryan equipoise, all experience is the experience of the ultimate, smelling a flower, being hit on the head with a rock, and so on. In that equipoise, there is nothing that is not an experience of the ultimate. Some other schools may imagine that conventional things disappear in such an equipoise, but that is not correct. It still does not mean your identity proposition is defensible.


Queequeg said:
But this still does not mean that your identity propsition—rocks are suchness— is valid at all.
I did not propose that. That is an incomplete representation of what I keep writing. You'd have to also go through the other three assertions of the tetralemma. Rocks are not suchness. Rocks are both suchness and not sucheness. Rocks are neither suchness nor not suchness.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't have to guess at what you might write, I have only to deal with what you do write. This is the first time in this conversation that you have brought up the idea of a tetralemma (and in so doing, abused it completely, committing yet another error). The point of the tetralemma is not to make assertions.  All you done here is now make four equally faulty identity propositions "a rock is a; is not a; is both a and not a; and is neither a nor not a." This is just not how the tetralemma is used in Buddhist texts by anyone. The tetralemma, used properly, is a structured negation. This is why we see the Buddha rejecting tetralemmas formed as identity propositions in other schools.

Your on firmer ground if you said something like "Matter is empty; emptiness is matter; there is no matter apart from emptiness; there is no emptiness apart from matter." This kind of identity proposition is absolutely faultless. You can substitute rock if you like with no harm at all: "A rock is empty; emptiness is a rock; there is not rock apart from emptiness; there is no emptiness apart from rock." This points to the fact that any given thing's ultimate nature is mutually inclusive with its relative nature -- the two are inseparable. But this still does not mean that "the buddhanature of insentient things" is a valid Buddhist doctrine.

Queequeg said:
We come to the conclusion that rocks are inconceivable. Saying that they have Buddhanature is a conditioned statement that is ultimately inconceivable. It doesn't mean what you think it means. I keep saying this over and over.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a statement that cannot be accepted at face value at all.

Queequeg said:
But I'll take the rest of your comment:
If rocks are suchness, there could be no nonveridical perceptions of rocks at all and therefore the distinction Zhi Yi is making here becomes meaningless. It becomes meaningless to talk about a "perfect and sudden calming-and-contemplation" that from the very beginning takes ultimate reality as its object, because if every relative thing was suchness and not different at all from suchness, then all perceptions would be "The perfect and sudden calming-and-contemplation."
You might actually be catching on here. Even a completely mistaken perception about a rock is real.

Malcolm wrote:
It is conventionally real, of course. Even the contemplation of the ultimate is merely something conventional, not actually ultimate per se.

Queequeg said:
That does not mean it is wholly lacking in reality - just not the reality that the mistaken person might think it is.

Malcolm wrote:
This why all entities bear two natures: one ultimate, the other relative, including buddhahood. It is also merely a convention, not actually real.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Unknown said:
"Whatever is made to be the object [of contemplation], it is the Middle; there is nothing that is not truly real [ultimate]."
-Mohezhikuan

Malcolm wrote:
By the way, there is no middle, asserting a middle is a mistaken conclusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A rock or a stone, or whatever you want to call a mineral composite does not have buddhanature because it is not the function of a rock to attain buddhahood since a rock has no mind and is not sentient. A sentient being has a mind, and so is capable of the function of attaining buddhahood, not because there is some ultimate buddhaness. If there were ultimate buddhaness then we could claim that rocks have buddhanature. There is no ultimate buddhaness, thus, claiming a rock has buddhanature is no better than asserting that water is dry.

Queequeg said:
I know. Based on your criteria, you're right. Yes. Yes.

Malcolm wrote:
Not my criteria— conventionality is the criteria of what is known to the world. That is the criteria by which arguments are made or broken.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And as I pointed out, prior to you making your identity proposition, it is conventionally acceptable to do so. But it is not conventionally acceptable to assert the identity proposition "A rock is suchness." It's like saying, "the relative is ultimate."

Queequeg said:
This may be a point of impasse.

"Whatever is made to be the object [of contemplation], it is the Middle; there is nothing that is not truly real [ultimate]."
-Mohezhikuan

Malcolm wrote:
You did not provide the beginning of the passage, so this is a misleading citation.... Here is the complete passage:

The perfect and sudden calming-and-contemplation from the very beginning takes ultimate reality (shih-hsiang) as its object. No matter what the object of contemplation might be, it is seen to be identical to the middle. There is here nothing that is not true reality (chen-shih). When one fixes [the mind] on the dharmadhātu [as object]and unifies one’s mindfulness with the dharmadhātu [as it is], then there is not a single sight nor smell that is not the middle way.

When one take ultimate reality as one's contemplation, of course there is nothing that is not ultimate in that contemplation. That contemplation itself is focused upon the ultimate. Such sentiments as this are simply not controversial at all in Indian Buddhism, etc.

However, this passage cannot be used to support the contention, "a rock is suchness." This is merely a statement on unified śamatha and vipaśyāna.

Queequeg said:
...You seem to be working from a perspective where the Two Truths are distinct and arranged in some manner or another. Whatever your approach, this is explicitly considered an inferior teaching in Tiantai. This is the criticism inherent in the teaching on the Threefold Inclusive Truth.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not the perspective I am working from.

The two truths are not independent realities— every object possesses two natures which are the objects of veridical and nonveridical cognitions respectively -- ultimate truth is the object of a veridical cognition of a given thing, such as a rock; relative truth is the object of a nonveridical cognition of a given thing, such as a rock (we don't need to address here the difference between conventional truth and delusion).

For example, if one perceives the hardness and solidity of a rock, one is not perceiving the suchness of the rock. If one is perceiving the suchness of the rock, its emptiness, absence of inherent existence, etc., one is not perceiving the conventional attributes of a rock. The gist of the complete statement above is that when one is in āryan equipoise, all sense datum are perceptions of the ultimate nature of things. This is perfectly fine. No one can have a problem with this who understands Mahāyāna Buddhism.

But this still does not mean that your identity propsition—rocks are suchness— is valid at all. If rocks are suchness, there could be no nonveridical perceptions of rocks at all and therefore the distinction Zhi Yi is making here becomes meaningless. It becomes meaningless to talk about a "perfect and sudden calming-and-contemplation" that from the very beginning takes ultimate reality as its object, because if every relative thing was suchness and not different at all from suchness, then all perceptions would be "The perfect and sudden calming-and-contemplation."

Queequeg said:
You can cite all the scripture you want... Tiantai makes a break.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so far.

Queequeg said:
Again, I'll refer you to Zhiyi's expositions on the Threefold Inclusive Truth.

Malcolm wrote:
What you have presented so far does not justify your identity proposition: "rocks are suchness." So at this point, I have to conclude this is your specific misunderstanding, not Zhi Yi's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Queequeg said:
Sigh. This is what I've been saying all along. You can invoke convention, but no one else can. Got it.

Malcolm wrote:
An example of a convention is something which is functional in the world. Arguments which do not stand up to convention are false arguments.

Claiming that a rock has buddhanature violates convention because rocks do not have minds. It is that simple.

For example, claiming that water is dry is a violation of convention; claiming there are four moons in the August night sky on planet Earth is a violation of convention; claiming that the pink elephants you see because of detoxing on alcohol are real is a violation of convention.

Queequeg said:
Right. See Anders' post above as an example. Compare the meaning of Arya before and after the Buddha redefined the term.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a non-argument. You can certainly call a dog a lion, but it will never roar, only bark. Diachronic changes in language do not impact the argument that conventions are called conventions because they describe functions. For example, we call an assemblage of mechanical parts a car due to its function, not because we think there is some ultimate carness. You can call it a motorized buggy, etc., but the point is that a car is car because it functions like a car. A rock or a stone, or whatever you want to call a mineral composite does not have buddhanature because it is not the function of a rock to attain buddhahood since a rock has no mind and is not sentient. A sentient being has a mind, and so is capable of the function of attaining buddhahood, not because there is some ultimate buddhaness. If there were ultimate buddhaness then we could claim that rocks have buddhanature. There is no ultimate buddhaness, thus, claiming a rock has buddhanature is no better than asserting that water is dry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Your statement suffers from the problem of not distinguishing dharmin and dharmatā. While one cannot claim that dharmin and dharmatā, in this case a rock and its suchness, are absolutely different, neither can one claim they are identical.

Queequeg said:
And your statement suffered from distinguishing them.

Malcolm wrote:
And as I pointed out, prior to you making your identity proposition, it is conventionally acceptable to do so. But it is not conventionally acceptable to assert the identity proposition "A rock is suchness." It's like saying, "the relative is ultimate."



Queequeg said:
However, it is a category error to assert that the ultimate is the specific characteristic (svalakṣana) of a given relative entity.
Its only an error if you asset that the ultimate is exclusively the specific characteristic.

Malcolm wrote:
A svalakṣana cannot be a samanyalakṣana and vice versa by definition. Thus, the characteristic of the ultimate is exclusively a general characteristic.

The Buddha demonstrates this by stating, "All the characteristics of the compounded cannot become the general characteristic, the characteristic of the ultimate...the characteristic of the ultimate cannot be designated as the characteristic of the universally afflicted, because all characteristics of the compounded would become the general characteristic, the characteristic of the ultimate."

Queequeg said:
Its also error to reify the distinction.

Malcolm wrote:
But it is not an error to make this necessary distinction. Why? Because otherwise, as pointed out in the Samdhinirmocana sūtra, if one does not make a distinction, all nonveridical cognitions become cognitions of the ultimate, and this is a very negative consequence. It is not as simple as the summary statement makes it seem. The Buddha explain four reasons why stating the ultimate and relative are the absolutely same are faulty, as well as four reasons why stating they are absolutely different is faulty; but in reality, the first four faults are more grave than the latter four.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In the realm of convention

Queequeg said:
Sigh. This is what I've been saying all along. You can invoke convention, but no one else can. Got it.

Malcolm wrote:
An example of a convention is something which is functional in the world. Arguments which do not stand up to convention are false arguments.

Claiming that a rock has buddhanature violates convention because rocks do not have minds. It is that simple.

For example, claiming that water is dry is a violation of convention; claiming there are four moons in the August night sky on planet Earth is a violation of convention; claiming that the pink elephants you see because of detoxing on alcohol are real is a violation of convention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Queequeg said:
Here, we're talking about two broad and deep Buddhist traditions that broke off and evolved separately in response to the needs of different groups of people who speak different languages and have different cultures. Insisting a word can have only have one meaning in this context evinces a lack of flexibility and is doomed to go no where.

Malcolm wrote:
Insisting that rocks literally possess buddhadhātu, tathāgatagarbha, etc., because they also, like sentient beings, are permeated by suchness is a major fail.

Queequeg said:
Not permeated. They are suchness. Are you positing that suchness is something distinct from the thing that exhibits suchness? This is not just an idle critique.

Malcolm wrote:
Your statement suffers from the problem of not distinguishing dharmin and dharmatā. While one cannot claim that dharmin and dharmatā, in this case a rock and its suchness, are absolutely different, neither can one claim they are identical.

The Buddha discusses this problem in detail in the Samdhinirmocana Sūtra, in Chapter Three. One must distinguish between the ultimate and the compounded, but this does not mean they have no relation, like a sun and its rays. As the Buddha says in the Samdhinirmocana, the ultimate is the general characteristic (samanyalakṣana) of the relative.

However, it is a category error to assert that the ultimate is the specific characteristic (svalakṣana) of a given relative entity. But even worse, if you assert the identity proposition "rocks are suchness," you are asserting that a compounded thing, a rock, is ultimate. That makes you a realist.

The Buddha asserts that stating an absolutely identity or difference between the ultimate and the relative are both problematical. He concludes this chapter by stating:

The characteristic of compounded entities and the ultimate
is the characteristic of being neither the same nor different; 
those who conceive sameness and difference
are improperly oriented.

On the other hand, the Buddha states nowhere that making conventional distinctions between dharmin and dharmatā is similarly fraught. In fact, as you know, Nāgārjuna points out that it is a great fault not to recognize the distinction between the two truths.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 21st, 2018 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Queequeg said:
What is the difference between an emanation and its source?

Malcolm wrote:
The sun and its rays. The rays depend on the sun, the sun does not depend on its rays.

Queequeg said:
This posits a source distinct from its manifestations.

That's intellectually awkward.

Malcolm wrote:
In the realm of convention, there is nothing awkward about it at all. A impression depends on a seal, but a seal does not depend on an impression. Ultimately, sources and manifestations do not survive analysis, but this does not prevent us from drinking water from wells.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Queequeg said:
Here, we're talking about two broad and deep Buddhist traditions that broke off and evolved separately in response to the needs of different groups of people who speak different languages and have different cultures. Insisting a word can have only have one meaning in this context evinces a lack of flexibility and is doomed to go no where.

Malcolm wrote:
Insisting that rocks literally possess buddhadhātu, tathāgatagarbha, etc., because they also, like sentient beings, are permeated by suchness is a major fail. It has nothing to do with cultural needs, and arguing from cultural needs makes for very poorly Dharmology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Tsongkhapafan said:
Rocks can be emanations of Buddha but rocks do not possess Buddha nature because they do not possess minds, thus they cannot be enlightened.

Queequeg said:
What is the difference between an emanation and its source?

Malcolm wrote:
The sun and its rays. The rays depend on the sun, the sun does not depend on its rays.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then of course there is this from Wonchu'ks commentary on the Heart Sutra:

In other words, when Wonchuk wrote this, there were already two translations of the Heart Sūtra in circulation, an "old" one, and one revised on the basis of a Sanskrit original by Hsuan Tsang. This fact is mentioned by Wonchuk four times.

Antiochus said:
I believe Jayarava did "address" this part in the first and second essays linked above. Essentially he agrees by the late 7th century Wonchuk does have a Sanskrit version. But since Wonchuk never avowed the Indian authenticity of that Sanksrit text openly, one way or the other, in his Heart Sutra commentary, it appears suspicious.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in fact Wonchuk does avow the authenticity of the Sanskrit copy with which he is familiar by pointing out flaws in the earlier translation at his disposal. This itself is a testimony to the fact that Wongchuk regards the text as authentic. If he did not think it authentic, he never would have bother composing a commentary. Esteemed paṇḍitas like Wongchuk don't waste their time writing commentaries on texts they regard as of questionable provenance. There is also the fact that he addresses the Heart Sūtra in his commentary on the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra when he discusses the different names used at the beginning of sūtras:

Some are also called by two names, such as the Mtshams sbyor rnam par grol ba'i mdo (unidentified) and Prajñāpāramitā-hṛdaya...The Prajñāpāramitā-hṛdaya is called two names [Bhagavāti and Prajñāpāramitāhridaya] because the compiler condensed it from the extensive texts.

Here, the sdud pa po, the compiler, refers to the hearer, "Thus have I heard...", i.e. Ananda. Whether we accept this or not, for Wonchuk, this text was compiled out of the extensive PP literature by Ananda himself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 10:34 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
in general, tathāgatagarbha is identified as the dharmakāya encased in afflictions. This is not novel at all.

Coëmgenu said:
I think the italics shines throughout the world was being interpreted as the dharmakāya encased in "the world/loka", as in an insentient dharmakāya, or at least one shining through insentience. But I do not want to make too many assertions about what Yuren meant. I'm not him. That's just how I took it.

Yuren said:
You interpreted it perfectly. That was exactly the intention behind the italics.

Malcolm wrote:
The question isn’t your intention, the question is the intention of the text you are citing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Your questions are irrelevant because they do not address the distinction between a sentient being (sattva) and and insensible thing (acetana).

Sherab said:
The questions are relevant if sunyata is the same as dependent arising.

Why?  Because dependent arising is the reason why there is the phenomena of sentient beings and inanimate things.  If you disagree with this, please explain why you disagree.
Malcolm, I shall assume that your silence means that you are unable to disagree with my statement above.  If so, then since for your suchness is sunyata and since sunyata is dependent arising (assumed by your above-mentioned silence), please respond if you can to my earlier questions reproduced below for your convenience:

If by suchness, you meant dependent arising, then your statement above implies that both inanimate things and sentient beings are dependently arisen. No problem here.

But when you say that the difference between inanimate things and sentient beings is that sentient beings are permeated with consciousness, are you saying that consciousness is not dependently arisen? If yes, then how does consciousness exist? Beyond suchness?

If you say that consciousness is dependently arisen, then is that dependent arising process distinct from the dependent arising process for inanimate things? If you say they are not distinct, then what is consciousness can become inanimate through the same dependent arising process and what is inanimate can become conscious through the same dependent arising process. Is this your position?

If you say that the dependent arising process is distinct, then the realm of phenomena necessarily is a duality of the inanimate and the conscious. Is this your position?

By answering the above questions, readers can then decide whether your arguments on the distinction between a sentient being and an insensible thing make sense or not.  As it stands, your arguments appear to reflect an internally inconsistent or incoherent position on sentient being and insensible thing.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this not the case. And your questions are still irrelevant. They do not address any substantive topic I have raised.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 9:26 AM
Title: Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese
Content:
MiphamFan said:
He's been spinning bullshit for years and hasn't even learned Chinese. What I can see from the citations above basically seems like he is looking up dictionary definitions and arbitrarily picking them to suit his needs.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then of course there is this from Wonchu'ks commentary on the Heart Sutra:
As for the “Kuan-zizai Bodhisattva”, the first part of [the sūtra], [that is, from “Kuan-zizai Bodhisattva … .” to “crosses over all sufferings and calamities”] may be subdivided in two [ways]: first, by indicating the person who can contemplate; second, by illustrating the essence of the contemplating wisdom. [The “Kuan-zizai Bodhisattva”] refers to the first [approach], to indicate the person who can contemplate. According to the old version of the translation [of the Praj@2p2ramit2-s^tras], the Kuan-shi-yin is designated as the one who contemplates the sounds of the world. By calling the name of [Kuan-shi-yin] Bodhisattva, accompanied with verbal deeds, [sentient beings] are saved from all disasters. This is how the name is established and called Kuan-shi-yin. Yet the power to contemplate bodily and mental deeds is not revealed [in the name of Kuan-shi-yin]. However, the “Kuan-zizai” mentioned in this scripture refers to the one who internally realizes the twofold emptiness while externally contemplating the three deeds effortlessly and acting at his/her unrestricted discretion. Therefore [he/she] is named “Kuan-zizai.”
Here, he makes a point about the difference in translating Avalokiteśvara's name between the old translation and the revised version done by Hsuan Tsang.

And:
A version [of the Heart Sūtra] states that “[The Bodhisattva] illuminatingly sees that the five aggregates, etc., are all empty.” Although there are two different versions, the latter [that is, the new version] is the correct one because the word “etc.” is found in the original Sanskrit scripture. [The meaning of] “etc.”described in the latter [version] should be understood based on [the doctrine of Dharmapāla].
And here is another example where an old and revised version are mentioned:
(i) In interpreting the name, the old [version] called it nirvāṇa in Sanskrit or niwon, which may be translated as “tranquil extinction” in [the Chinese] language. Hsüan-tsang of T'ang China called it parinirvāṇa,which means “perfect stillness” because it is ultimately free from obstructions, saṃsāra and disturbances. Yet in order to preserve the name [used] in the old [version], it is called nirvāṇa.
And:
The translation of [“Śāriputra”] into “shen-tzu (身子)” in the old version is an incorrect one.
-- An English Translation of the Banya paramilda simgyeong chan: Wonch'uk's Commentary on the Heart Sūtra, B. Hyun Choo.

In other words, when Wonchuk wrote this, there were already two translations of the Heart Sūtra in circulation, an "old" one, and one revised on the basis of a Sanskrit original by Hsuan Tsang. This fact is mentioned by Wonchuk four times.

Jayarava also misrepsents this text, in a characteristic manner:
The wording used by Woncheuk is 簡 "selected, gleaned" from 諸般若 "various Prajñā(pāramitā sūtras)" (T 33.543.b.18).
But this is not what Wongchuk says. What he actually says is:
Since [this text] selects the essential outlines from all the Prajñāpāramitāsūtras, it has only the main chapter, without introduction and conclusion, just as the Kuan-yin ching (Avalokite$vara-s^tra) is not composed of three sections.
This is a completely different assertion than what Jayarava presents.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
There is another precedent for the Buddhahood of Insentien[ce], but instead of coming from India, it comes from Theravāda modernism:

Malcolm wrote:
Lot of Theravadin materialists out there these days, thanks to Buddhadasa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment
Content:
florin said:
There are lots of dzogchenpa's that hold the following view:
When the mind is deluded, that is cyclic existence.
If the mind is undeluded, that is called enlightenment.

Unfortunately this is completely incorrect .

krodha said:
Such a view is not incorrect. The fact that phenomena are already liberated does not mean you possess a working knowledge of this.

Vairocana:

At the time of vidyā, wisdom arises as the dhātu; at the time of avidyā, wisdom appears as samsara.


florin said:
The idea was that the view from that passage does not represent the teaching of dzogchen.
You cannot hold that view and yet consider yourself a dzogchenpa .

Malcolm wrote:
Of course one can accept Vairocana's statement. Otherwise, there is no purpose at all in distinguishing sems and rig pa, etc. It is an entirely different statement than the one being critiqued by TNR. Here "wisdom" is ye shes, a syonym of byang chub sems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Jayarava's New Thesis on Heart Sutra: Sanskrit Version Deliberate Forgery by Tang Chinese
Content:
Queequeg said:
The canon also repeatedly tells us: its all stories, all upaya.

PeterC said:
Well, yes, but that doesn't mean we don't care where teachings come from, or that we have no criteria for deciding whether something is or isn't the dharma. Jayarava's goals are not without merit. However his focus on this sutra is somewhat pointless, since even if he succeeded in proving his thesis, it wouldn't change our understanding or practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Not only this, but it is not like Hsuan Tsang had no contemporaries who would have pilloried him. For example not only did Wongchuk, Husan Tsang contemporary and colleague, write a commentary on the Heart Sutra, he mentions it at least twice in his massive Great Commentary on the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 20th, 2018 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Yuren said:
The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana has the following passage, which I believe is very relevant to this discussion:
In its very origin suchness is of itself endowed with sublime attributes. It manifests the highest wisdom which shines throughout the world, it has true knowledge and a mind resting simply in its own being. It is eternal, blissful, its own self-being and the purest simplicity; it is invigorating, immutable, free... Because it possesses all these attributes and is deprived of nothing, it is designated both as the Womb of Tathagata and the Dharma Body of Tathagata.

Malcolm wrote:
in general, tathāgatagarbha is identified as the dharmakāya encased in afflictions. This is not novel at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 19th, 2018 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The qualities of a master upon whom to rely... He must be expert in meditation and practice, know how to explain the four branches of approach and accomplishment, and have produced skills in repelling disturbances with mantras of exhortation, curses, and slaying.
-Buddhahood in This Life

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. A Dzogchen master ought to be a master of Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 19th, 2018 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
So... buddha’s Four actions? How does primordially liberated “yogi” do?


Malcolm wrote:
Activities are effortless
due to the natural perfection of awakening,

-- Kun byed rgyal po.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 19th, 2018 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:


Sherab said:
If by suchness, you meant dependent arising, then your statement above implies that both inanimate things and sentient beings are dependently arisen.  No problem here.

Malcolm wrote:
By suchness, I mean emptiness, śūnyatā. The rest of your questions are irrelevant.

Sherab said:
My questions are irrelevant because sunyata is not the same as dependent arising?

Malcolm wrote:
Your questions are irrelevant because they do not address the distinction between a sentient being (sattva) and and insensible thing (acetana).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 19th, 2018 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Queequeg said:
We are emphasizing different things. It is correct to say, "in a way" in the context of Tiantai thought because dependent origination is not the whole story, except, in a way, from a particular vantage point. Like light being particles, absolutely, in a way, but also being waves, absolutely, in a way.

Malcolm wrote:
The six causes and four conditions precede dependent origination.

Queequeg said:
OK. More succinctly: we're not actually communicating. Yogacara is not really an influence of Tiantai. Its not clear how yogacara would relate.


Malcolm wrote:
The teaching on the six causes and four conditions is fundamental Buddhism, theories in which Chih I was quite expert.

In fact, the whole of the first chapter of the MMK is explicitly about them and how they are merely conventions.


Queequeg said:
Chih I's writings never imply this doctrine of insentient buddhanature at all.
Says you? Is that your actual knowledge? Or are you borrowing the opinion of Robert Sharf without attribution?

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, I am basing my opinion on the consensus of a number of scholars, Paul Swanson chief among them. And then there is this:
As we recall, Daosheng believes that all icchantikas can become Buddhas and Zhiyi believes that Buddha-nature includes inherent evil. But neither speaks about Buddha-nature and insentient beings.
https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/download/.../Ma_columbia_0054D_10217.pdf

Queequeg said:
Zhanran says differently.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, he does. That does not mean he is right.


Queequeg said:
So you are saying the bodhimaṇḍa is found in a moment of thought itself Or are you saying it is found in the dharmatā of that moment of thought?
If I understand your question correctly, both. 一念三千

Malcolm wrote:
A thought is a concept. Buddhahood is by definition free of concepts. Nevertheless, even concepts also have suchness. If one realizes the dharmatā of a concept, then one can say the seat of awakening can be found in a concept; but if one does not realize the dharmatā of a concept, one cannot say that the seat of awakening can be found in a concept.

Any given entity can be can be the object of a veridical perception that accords with suchness, or the object of a non-veridical perception that does not accord with suchness. But the same perception cannot be both veridical, in accordance with suchness, and non-veridical, not in accordance with-- it must one or the other.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 18th, 2018 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: Two Truths Sauvignon Blanc
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The real question is -- do you drink it all at once, or gradually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 18th, 2018 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment
Content:



Temicco said:
What does it come from, then?

Malcolm wrote:
Liberation does not come from anywhere. Everything is already liberated, just as it is.

Crazywisdom said:
Sure. But defiled beings have to get into some method.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure. But that has nothing to do with liberation, from a Dzogchen perspective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 18th, 2018 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is not a sudden school. It argues that liberation does not come from realization.

Temicco said:
What does it come from, then?

Malcolm wrote:
Liberation does not come from anywhere. Everything is already liberated, just as it is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 18th, 2018 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Queequeg said:
I'm not familiar with Karana-hetu, but all phenomena are indeed causes of all others, in a way.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in a way, directly.

Queequeg said:
We are emphasizing different things. It is correct to say, "in a way" in the context of Tiantai thought because dependent origination is not the whole story, except, in a way, from a particular vantage point. Like light being particles, absolutely, in a way, but also being waves, absolutely, in a way.

Malcolm wrote:
The six causes and four conditions precede dependent origination.

Dependent origination is a separate topic.

This account is Chih I's four fold dependent origination is very lucid:

https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/jiabs/article/download/8729/2636

Nothing really remarkable out of ordinary for a Mahāyāna author.


Queequeg said:
The problem is not buddhas in hell realms, the problem is buddhas experiencing the suffering of hell realms, or any other realm, for that matter.
The Buddha was born. Possibly caesarean. But in any event, it wasn't the myth where Maya grasped a branch while Gotama just miraculously emerged from her side. He also didn't take 7 steps and declare he was the greatest being. He was a helpless infant, like all of us at birth. The Buddha died of what sounds like food poisoning. It was miraculous enough that he lived to 80 at that time.

If you chose to believe those myths about his birth and death literally, the fabrics of our realities probably don't match up.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a non-sequitar.


Queequeg said:
The Buddha appears in the Saha world and toils just like the rest of us.

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Queequeg said:
All those stories about Pure Lands... ways to help people who can't unsee the futility of this world to conceive of purity and bliss without being forced to reconcile the real pain and suffering they've endured.

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Queequeg said:
The point of Trees and Rocks having Buddhanature is to locate the struggle for enlightenment, here and now, in this moment.

Malcolm wrote:
Chih I's writings never imply this doctrine of insentient buddhanature at all. Since you never define your terms, I have no idea what you mean by "struggle for enlightenment."

Queequeg said:
Despite Zhanran's denial of the ultimacy of the Nirvana Sutra's explicit identification of Buddhanature exclusively with sentient beings, there are other aspects of the Nirvana Sutra that inform this.

Malcolm wrote:
Such as?

Queequeg said:
The Nirvana Sutra actually includes an assertion of True Self - something that goes against pretty much all of the Buddha's teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
It does not contain an assertion that this self is the self of rocks and trees.


Queequeg said:
When the Buddha utters teachings, he's always addressing some excess, not directly revealing his wisdom.



Malcolm wrote:
???

Queequeg said:
The Nirvana also teaches that all true dharmas, non-Buddhist and Buddhist, are Buddhadharma.

Malcolm wrote:
The Nirvana Sūtra teaches there are non-Buddhist true dharmas? How are you using the term, "true dharma"?

Queequeg said:
The point is that any dharma when fully contemplated ends in awakening. How is that possible? Because all dharmas have the BuddhaNature. If they didn't, contemplating them would not end in awakening.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, how are you using the term dharma here? Do you mean an entity which bears characteristics such as form, sound, etc.?

Queequeg said:
Again, the point is not rocks being buddhanature.

Malcolm wrote:
We have already established this is not a doctrine present in Chih I's writings, but it is a later idea added on.

Queequeg said:
The point is, this thought-moment is the seat of enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are saying the bodhimaṇḍa is found in a moment of thought itself Or are you saying it is found in the dharmatā of that moment of thought?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
PeterC said:
What Chinese writers said on the topic is not relevant to that particular question.

Malcolm wrote:
It is only relevant in so far as it was not a universally held principle in Sinitic Buddhism, even though it appears to be very widely diffused among Japanese Sects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:


Grigoris said:
Take the U$ for example:

73.3% of the population identifies as Christian and only 18.2% identify as having no religion.

The effect of this statistic is that although there is a split between church and state, in reality the U$ functions as a Christian nation.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not mean they are Christians in any active sense.

These stats are informative:

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/attendance-at-religious-services/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Queequeg said:
Not quite. The article suggests that the Hua-yen view sidesteps the issue in order to remain literally faithful to the Mahaparinirvana.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they do not sidestep the issue at all. They make a well known distinction, also made by Indian Buddhists, between the suchness of inanimate things and sentient beings, the suchness is the same, but sentient beings are also permeated with consciousness.

Sherab said:
If by suchness, you meant dependent arising, then your statement above implies that both inanimate things and sentient beings are dependently arisen.  No problem here.

Malcolm wrote:
By suchness, I mean emptiness, śūnyatā. The rest of your questions are irrelevant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nope, Chang is mistaken. It is very clear that Hua Yen rejects this idea.

http://buddhism.org/kr/koan/Robert_Sharf-e.htm

Queequeg said:
Not quite. The article suggests that the Hua-yen view sidesteps the issue in order to remain literally faithful to the Mahaparinirvana.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they do not sidestep the issue at all. They make a well known distinction, also made by Indian Buddhists, between the suchness of inanimate things and sentient beings, the suchness is the same, but sentient beings are also permeated with consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Had to step out for a moment... Now, substance.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on which Indian Buddhist view we are discussing. There is for example, Karana-hetu, the principle that all phenomena are causes of all other phenomena apart from themselves.

This still does not make rocks capable of buddhahood. Nor does it make a mind a function of a rock. Your thesis amounts to saying that since there is a container universe and inhabitants, their mutual dependence means that the awakening of the latter necessitates the awakening of the former, even though it is conventionally insentient. But this also bears the consequence that buddhas can become sentient beings just as sentient beings can become buddhas. This is very terrible consequence.

Queequeg said:
I'm not familiar with Karana-hetu, but all phenomena are indeed causes of all others, in a way.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in a way, directly.

Queequeg said:
Are you familiar with the Tiantai slogan, Even Buddhahood includes Hell? The implications are what you think is so terrible. But why is that terrible? Because it doesn't conform to what people say a Buddha is or what Buddhahood is? What do those distinctions even mean to a Buddha? I don't think the Buddha cares. We care, because we have our sacred cows, because we think these particular stories are capital T True and will lead to awakening; I mean, we've devoted so much time and effort to these ideas... THEY BETTER BE TRUE! I'm being facetious to make a point.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem is not buddhas in hell realms, the problem is buddhas experiencing the suffering of hell realms, or any other realm, for that matter.

Queequeg said:
What this really gets to is the kinds of teachings that appear in the Vimalakirti and Lotus Sutras that I quoted above - This Saha World is a Buddhaland, and the Saha World includes all the beings, along with the environments from which they cannot be separated, including this darn rock that we can't agree has Buddhanature or not.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, this doctrine, that insentient beings possess buddhanature, is not in Zhi Yi's writings. See Swanson, CSQI, vol. 1, pg. 58. He states that Zhi Yi really treads lightly around the tathagātagarbha theory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Anders said:
The thesis originated with Jizang, one of the seminal masters of the Sanlun/Madhyamika tradition, who originally wrote of it:

“Not only sentient beings have buddha-nature; grasses and trees also have buddha-nature”


Malcolm wrote:
Justifiable perhaps on the basis of the MMK:
Whatever is the Tatāgata's nature, that is the world's nature;
as the Tatāgata has no nature, the world also has no nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Queequeg said:
Tell, what is your point in including this throwaway line? Don't be an ass.

Malcolm wrote:
I am stating that perhaps some of Zhi Yi's arguments, as presented by you, are not as sound as you think they are. That they don't stand up to analysis and criticism as well as his exponents imagine. Bad arguments can't be excused simply as "upaya."

Queequeg said:
No, no, no. Don't be like that.

Malcolm wrote:
Make better arguments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Yuren said:
Thank you Queequeg for the in depth explanation, very useful.

I would emphatically say "cannot be traced to Indian roots" does not equal false.

It's derived from an Indian basis via some further philosophical speculation, which is very subtle.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not derived from any Indian basis at all.

Also this doctrine was rejected by many Chinese Buddhists as well. It appears to be a special feature of the Tienta'i school, but was rejected by Hua Yen scholars (justifiably, in my opinion).

Arguing that the container world appears as buddhafield when one attains buddhahood does not bear the correlation that rocks are capable of attaining buddhahood on their own.

Coëmgenu said:
Interestingly, The Buddhist Teaching of Totality: the Philosophy of Hwa Yen Buddhism by Garma C. C. Chang makes literally the opposite claim, that it is a Huáyán doctrine.

So no one can really make up their mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, Chang is mistaken. It is very clear that Hua Yen rejects this idea.

http://buddhism.org/kr/koan/Robert_Sharf-e.htm


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
passel said:
I think I’m only responding to myself but maybe somebody else will bite:
Dogen being the most prominent later exegete of this doctrine, isn’t his point not that the insentient HAVE buddha nature, but that they ARE buddha nature?
Which I take just to mean that the phenomenal world is implicated in and inseparable from awakening.
Seems to me that that project is quite different from quasi-abhdharmic divvying up of of the world into what has and doesn’t have buddha nature?

Malcolm wrote:
Dogen was fully within the Tientai tradition, philosophically speaking, so that makes his ideas less radical then they appear on first glance.

Then the second problem one has to parse is what exactly does on mean by "buddhanature," if not tathāgatagarbha?

If by buddhanature, one means that everything is awakened intrinsically, then one has to parse exactly what awakening means, if not the absence of afflictions through insight into the reality of things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. there are a lot of renowned Buddhist savants in history who have put forward some pretty bad arguments -- like Sapan's argument that ants lack eyes. Just embarrassing.

Queequeg said:
Tell, what is your point in including this throwaway line?...

Malcolm wrote:
I am stating that perhaps some of Zhi Yi's arguments, as presented by you, are not as sound as you think they are. That they don't stand up to analysis and criticism as well as his exponents imagine. Bad arguments can't be excused simply as "upaya."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Queequeg said:
What does it really mean to say that rocks have buddhanature?

Malcolm wrote:
As far as I can tell, not much. It's a pretty meaningless statement. You might as well ask, does Zyklon B have buddhanature?


Queequeg said:
The implications drawn from these different meanings might lead to different ends. I guess that's the whole debate about "Are Dzogchen, Mahamudra and Zen the same awakening or different?"

Malcolm wrote:
They are the same awakening. There is only one kind of awakening.

Queequeg said:
It doesn't mean that rocks are sentient. It does have some interesting implications about the path to Buddhahood and derivatively, practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. there are a lot of renowned Buddhist savants in history who have put forward some pretty bad arguments -- like Sapan's argument that ants lack eyes. Just embarrassing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Queequeg said:
In Tiantai, the full blown mutuality between beings and their environment is brought out in Mohezhikuan.

In the Indian view, the world arises from the mind. So, rocks are defined as functions of the mind. In the Tiantai view, the mind is also a function of the rock.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on which Indian Buddhist view we are discussing. There is for example, Karana-hetu, the principle that all phenomena are causes of all other phenomena apart from themselves.

This still does not make rocks capable of buddhahood. Nor does it make a mind a function of a rock. Your thesis amounts to saying that since there is a container universe and inhabitants, their mutual dependence means that the awakening of the latter necessitates the awakening of the former, even though it is conventionally insentient. But this also bears the consequence that buddhas can become sentient beings just as sentient beings can become buddhas. This is very terrible consequence.

Queequeg said:
This can be said because there is no self - no center from which to say that one thing arises from the other. Where does the rock begin? Where does the mind begin? The rock and the mind are, when we broaden the scope, aspects of a single complex.

Malcolm wrote:
This is addressed by the six causes and four conditions taught by the Sarvastivadins.

It is basic Madhyamaka to point out that things do not arise from self, other, both, or without a cause. Nevertheless, this does not mean that a tree attains buddhahood since it lacks a basis for attaining buddhahood, a mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Not so, mutuality is addressed by the container traces in the minds of sentient beings which produce the appearances of all six realms. Since we have these traces, we have mutual appearances of trees, rocks, etc., or river of pus and blood, etc., or hell guardians, etc.

Queequeg said:
This is what I mean. You don't address mutuality as it was taught in Tiantai.

Malcolm wrote:
Summarize the principle concisely, using an example, and I will see if I agree with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:


Queequeg said:
The Oculus is, hands down, the greatest architectural achievement in NYC, ever (IMO ).

Malcolm wrote:
I would argue that the great architectural achievement in NYC, ever, is Central Park.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Since it depends on the munificence of kings, it does not really go very far at all.

Queequeg said:
Yes. This is a problem with it.

The values, though, could be drawn out as a political policy.

One of the recommendations that struck me when I first read it, and its still a point of fascination to me - He tells the king to build roads and line them with trees so that travelers are shaded. Its about going further than just function and considering the comfort of people.

Malcolm wrote:
Philosophers have all kinds of advice for rulers.


Queequeg said:
Maybe it strikes me because so much public architecture where I am is just moderately functional and there is no indication that the designers considered that human beings would be using it.

Malcolm wrote:
New York is not a well designed city. In fact it was not designed at all -- it just sort of happened over the past hundred years. The same with LA, etc. Of course, there are exceptions, but mostly, urban planning in America has been something of an afterthought.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 17th, 2018 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Queequeg said:
I am advocating the introduction of Buddhist ideas and values into the public sphere and by extension into the political process and government policies.

Malcolm wrote:
Such as?

Queequeg said:
One of the problems with the secular governments we have now is that they are fundamentally materialist. There are historical reasons for this retreat.  Little or no account is taken of the spiritual life, and this has been to our collective detriment. There were some bad ideas about spiritual life that needed to be pushed back, but in throwing everything out, we were left with materialism.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the constitution was written largely by colonial materialists[aka "Deists] who were enamored of Epicureanism via Lucretius' De Natura Rerum. Jefferson himself owned 13 copies of the text.

Queequeg said:
One thing that bringing Buddhism into the political sphere would do is to have at least one voice asserting that there is more to life than atoms bouncing off each other. If Buddhism has a voice, obviously other would too.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't want my government advocating any views at all not grounded in empiricism and science.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:


Queequeg said:
I was pointing out that there are many moving parts. We don't really know what is going wrong. I tend to think that Islam is not particularly good as a personal or social value system, but that is admittedly an opinion, based on observation and experience.


Malcolm wrote:
Most of us here are pretty ignorant of Islam in general, so none of us are really in a reasonable place to offer much of an opinion about whether Islam is not a particularly good personal or social value system. But a third of the world adheres to Islam, so it is working for someone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That's the point -- it is a Mahāyāna polemical treatise—— not even all Buddhists would go along with it.

Queequeg said:
And under a government implementing the Jeweled Garland they'd have the liberty to disagree and pursue their dharmas. They'd even be encouraged and supported.

But I'm not particularly interested in getting everything right. I full well accept that things will go wrong. I just want to push things in the right direction - more love, more compassion, more kindness, more smiling people. I'm a whole lot more pragmatic than other posters here, I think.

Malcolm wrote:
The Ratnavali proposes some good ideas for rulers, but it does not propose anything that goes beyond say, the bill of rights, etc. Since it depends on the munificence of kings, it does not really go very far at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I disagree. If you think I did not address your point, you should point out what point I did not address. Be concise.

Queequeg said:
You just stated views you hold. But let's go on.

Mutuality, for one.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so, mutuality is addressed by the container traces in the minds of sentient beings which produce the appearances of all six realms. Since we have these traces, we have mutual appearances of trees, rocks, etc., or river of pus and blood, etc., or hell guardians, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:


Queequeg said:
When the Buddha appeared in India, he had to work with the language and ideas current around him. As the Dharma is transmitted to people of different cultures, its expression changes. The ills of the people are different and so their cures differ.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. Everyone suffers from same three afflictions.

Queequeg said:
Before we judge and condemn the cures people have developed for themselves, one might want to consider their illness first.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not the case that this idea of plants, etc., attaining buddhahood was universally accepted in China. It has caught the imagination of Western Academics however, which is why we are discussing it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Ratnavali is Mahāyāna polemical text.

Queequeg said:
I never said it wasn't.

Malcolm wrote:
That's the point -- it is a Mahāyāna polemical treatise—— not even all Buddhists would go along with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:



Queequeg said:
Are you explaining Tiantai views? East Asian?

Take note where you are posting.

Malcolm wrote:
The question originally was open. The doctrine is strictly East Asian, and finds no basis in Indian Buddhism at all.

Specifically, your presentation does not add up, which is why I rebutted it.



Queequeg said:
You didn't actually address what I presented.

Malcolm wrote:
I disagree. If you think I did not address your point, you should point out what point I did not address. Be concise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Yuren said:
Thank you Queequeg for the in depth explanation, very useful.

I would emphatically say "cannot be traced to Indian roots" does not equal false.

It's derived from an Indian basis via some further philosophical speculation, which is very subtle.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not derived from any Indian basis at all.

Also this doctrine was rejected by many Chinese Buddhists as well. It appears to be a special feature of the Tienta'i school, but was rejected by Hua Yen scholars (justifiably, in my opinion).

Arguing that the container world appears as buddhafield when one attains buddhahood does not bear the correlation that rocks are capable of attaining buddhahood on their own.

Queequeg said:
Nobody and nothing attains Buddhahood on their own.

Malcolm wrote:
Ultimately yes; relatively, no. Relatively everyone who attains buddhahood (which is only something relative) does so based on their own effort. Ultimately, there is no buddhahood at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Queequeg said:
In the absence of a creed, philosophy, ideology, religion, etc. as a paradigm through which to organize the world and provide a map for life, some iteration will emerge and become the defacto creed, philosophy, ideology, religion, etc. This is true for the individual as it is for society.

Better to select a better one that takes into account our tendencies to defeat ourselves and deal with the imperfect execution than to just go through life haphazard like flotsam and jetsam.

Might as well try to put Nagarjuna's Jeweled Garland into practice. Better than The Prince, or Secularism, or any other number of political philosophies that have been proposed and implemented over the centuries. Better than whim.


Malcolm wrote:
I prefer HHDL"s POV:
Today, however, any religion-based answer to the problem of our neglect of inner values can never be universal, and so will be inadequate. What we need today is an approach to ethics which makes no recourse to religion and can be equally acceptable to those with faith and those without: a secular ethics....the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I believe the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics that is beyond religion.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/02/beyond-religion-dalai-lam_n_1125892.html

Queequeg said:
The jeweled Garland is braver than that without seeking to impose any particular dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
The Ratnavali is Mahāyāna polemical text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Yuren said:
Thank you Queequeg for the in depth explanation, very useful.

I would emphatically say "cannot be traced to Indian roots" does not equal false.

It's derived from an Indian basis via some further philosophical speculation, which is very subtle.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not derived from any Indian basis at all.

Also this doctrine was rejected by many Chinese Buddhists as well. It appears to be a special feature of the Tienta'i school, but was rejected by Hua Yen scholars (justifiably, in my opinion).

Arguing that the container world appears as buddhafield when one attains buddhahood does not bear the correlation that rocks are capable of attaining buddhahood on their own.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Rocks are appearances that ripen from container world traces sentient beings hold in common. Rocks still don't have minds in this scheme.


Queequeg said:
When we say that Rocks share Buddhanature with Sentient Beings, this is a statement about the nature of reality, not Buddhanature as the sort of simplified idea of the literal Buddha Seed (tathagatagarbha).



Malcolm wrote:
Sentient beings and rocks are both empty, but since the former have minds and the latter are mere projections of minds, the former can become buddhas where the latter cannot.

Queequeg said:
Are you explaining Tiantai views? East Asian?

Take note where you are posting.

Malcolm wrote:
The question originally was open. The doctrine is strictly East Asian, and finds no basis in Indian Buddhism at all.

Specifically, your presentation does not add up, which is why I rebutted it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Nemo said:
Kings are not the only choice for a Dharma government. Iran has an interesting model where they have a clergy with an ethical veto on a democratically elected government. Applying the very dynamic and situational ethics Buddhism is famous for as a check against the inevitable oligarchy and plutocracy that are hallmarks of democracy could be a very nice incremental improvement on the current system.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, looked how that has worked out for Iran. Not well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, nation states are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Grigoris said:
And that is one of the major sources of our current problems (globally).

Malcolm wrote:
Not much is going to change, I am afraid. It is a situation we are stuck with for the foreseeable future. The only alternative is to create communities whose decision making operates outside state structures, but parallel with them, in such a way that latter does not see the former as threats.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Queequeg said:
In the absence of a creed, philosophy, ideology, religion, etc. as a paradigm through which to organize the world and provide a map for life, some iteration will emerge and become the defacto creed, philosophy, ideology, religion, etc. This is true for the individual as it is for society.

Better to select a better one that takes into account our tendencies to defeat ourselves and deal with the imperfect execution than to just go through life haphazard like flotsam and jetsam.

Might as well try to put Nagarjuna's Jeweled Garland into practice. Better than The Prince, or Secularism, or any other number of political philosophies that have been proposed and implemented over the centuries. Better than whim.


Malcolm wrote:
I prefer HHDL"s POV:
Today, however, any religion-based answer to the problem of our neglect of inner values can never be universal, and so will be inadequate. What we need today is an approach to ethics which makes no recourse to religion and can be equally acceptable to those with faith and those without: a secular ethics....the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I believe the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics that is beyond religion.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/02/beyond-religion-dalai-lam_n_1125892.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 6:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment
Content:
passel said:
Lankavatara is old news in Chan as near as I can tell- supplanted.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, the sudden approach comes from it.

ItsRaining said:
As far as I know, it’s generally accepted the Sudden approach originated with Zhu Daosheng and Zhi Daolin before the translation of the Lankavatara. And the Lanka although used in hagiographies isn’t really focused on as the topic of other Chan writings like those about practice. With no commentaries from early a Chance practitioners. Early works like the Two Practices and Four Entrances make no reference of any Sutra like the Lanka.

Malcolm wrote:
Do Daosheng's ideas have any impact on Chan?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 6:48 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment
Content:
passel said:
Lankavatara is old news in Chan as near as I can tell- supplanted.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, the sudden approach comes from it.

passel said:
Is dzogchen not ‘sudden’ then, since it has its own sources, or are there multiple origins for ‘sudden’ teachings?

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is not a sudden school. It argues that liberation does not come from realization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
pemachophel said:
"May I emanate as endless Chakravartins
To fulfill the hopes of beings and guard the Dharma domain,
And, gaining dominion over all realms equaling space,
Establish all sentient beings in happiness."

Malcolm wrote:
Cakravartins conquer without force of arms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dharma kings don't go on military campaigns.

Grigoris said:
In samsara they do.

Malcolm wrote:
Then they are not Dharma kings, just kings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Abdicated his crown upon becoming a Buddhist:

And afterwards, taking delight in the wisdom of the Elder, he handed over his kingdom to his son, and abandoning the household life for the houseless state, grew great in insight, and himself attained to Arahatship!

Grigoris said:
The Milindapanha is not a historical account.  According to Plutarch Menander ruled Bactria until his death in 130BC during a military campaign.  His remains were divided up and placed in stupa all across his kingdom.

Malcolm wrote:
Dharma kings don't go on military campaigns.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:


Grigoris said:
So undeniably there have been and are attempts at Dharma government.

Malcolm wrote:
In our tradition, Greg, there is a distinction between Mi chos, literally "human dharma," which principally involves secular ethics, and "Lha chos," higher Dharma.

The former is not at all grounded in Buddhism on any level.

The Tibetans always got into trouble the instant they tried to implement lha chos as mi chos.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment
Content:
passel said:
Lankavatara is old news in Chan as near as I can tell- supplanted.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, the sudden approach comes from it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Dharma government?
Content:
Queequeg said:
.
As Buddhists you ought to understand that only Dharma will end the suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
On an individual level, yes, but there is no such thing as a Dharma government. Nor could there be.

Grigoris said:
Should I bring up the obvious example of Asoka?  Or is it too obvious?

Malcolm wrote:
Ashoka did not have a Dharma government. He was an Indian king, novel in that he created a parliamentary democracy, but he did not institute Buddhism as a state religion.

Grigoris said:
King Menander of Bactria?

Malcolm wrote:
Abdicated his crown upon becoming a Buddhist:

And afterwards, taking delight in the wisdom of the Elder, he handed over his kingdom to his son, and abandoning the household life for the houseless state, grew great in insight, and himself attained to Arahatship!

Grigoris said:
pre-Chinese occupation Tibet?

Malcolm wrote:
Awesome example of how Dharma cannot run a country.

Grigoris said:
Bhutan?

Malcolm wrote:
You call the forcible expulsion of a population of Nepali immigrants Dharmic? It may have been necessary from the point of view of the Bhutanese who wanted to preserve Bhutanese culture, but Bhutanese culture is not Dharma, and neither is Tibetan culture.

Grigoris said:
Thailand?

Malcolm wrote:
Thailand was a constitutional monarchy on the British model. However, it is now a military dictatorship and has been since 2014.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Rocks have Buddhanature because they are integrated with Buddha. Rocks also have hell nature because they are integrated with beings suffering in hell.
I should add, Buddha has rock nature because Buddha is integrated with rock.

Malcolm wrote:
Sounds cool, but no.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Queequeg said:
The perfect-and-sudden [method of practicing cessation-and-contemplation] involves taking the true aspects [of reality] as the object
What Zhiyi seems to be pointing out is that for Vasubandhu, the dharmadhatu, the phenomenal world, is a function of the Mind, and the various dharmas are actually mere aspects of the Mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Rocks are appearances that ripen from container world traces sentient beings hold in common. Rocks still don't have minds in this scheme.


Queequeg said:
When we say that Rocks share Buddhanature with Sentient Beings, this is a statement about the nature of reality, not Buddhanature as the sort of simplified idea of the literal Buddha Seed (tathagatagarbha).



Malcolm wrote:
Sentient beings and rocks are both empty, but since the former have minds and the latter are mere projections of minds, the former can become buddhas where the latter cannot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 16th, 2018 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and Zen on enlightenment and post-enlightenment
Content:
passel said:
That chan is sutra is a straw dog argument, however well founded in exalted traditional schemes.
Sutra could be a suitable basis for Chan, but it’s not limited to sutra. Nor is Chan tantra; it is not deficient dzogchen either

Malcolm wrote:
Sure it is. It is based on the sudden awakening approach exemplified in the Lankāvatara Sūtra.

In the translation of Bodhidharma's words we have in Tibetan, his point is simple, "Once the view is confirmed, do not rely on scriptures." Sound advice.

The approach of Chan is superior to that of the gradual path advocated by Kamalashila.

On the other hand, both Longchenpa and Jigme Lingpa express skepticism about Tibetan treatments of Chan. Tulku Thundup discusses this in his Dzogchen Book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Buddhahood of Insentient Beings Exclusively East-Asian?
Content:
Yuren said:
A dispute arose in Chinese Buddhism with regard to whether insentient beings possess a Buddha nature, but the view that Buddhahood exists as a potential in all things and phenomena prevailed in China. This idea also became widespread in Japan. (See also enlightenment of plants.)
I am very interested in this teaching of "Buddha-nature of insentient beings" - my question is, is it exclusive to China (and by extension, Korea & Japan)?Is there anything close to this teaching to be found in any school of Tibetan Buddhism or in any Indian text?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Tathāgatagarbha strictly belongs to sentient beings (sattvas) in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism.

The self the Nirvana Sūtra is referring to is the dharmakāya. The dharmakāya pervades all phenomena because it is by definition the realization of the emptiness of all phenomena. This does not mean, however, that rocks possess tathāgatagarbha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Direct democracy does not scale. In New England, we also have direct democracy at the town level. But get to the county level, it begins to show signs of weakness.

Grigoris said:
It does not scale in nation states.  Direct democracy requires a confederate system to function properly.  It can work within the context of a confederation, if one takes advantage of current communication technology.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, nation states are not going anywhere anytime soon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Direct democracy does not scale. In New England, we also have direct democracy at the town level. But get to the county level, it begins to show signs of weakness.

Grigoris said:
It does not scale in nation states.  Direct democracy requires a confederate system to function properly.  It can work within the context of a confederation, if one takes advantage of current communication technology.

Before "skype conferencing" was available (during the Spanish Civil War, or the Makhnoist liberation of the Ukraine, for example) a community could send a representative to a confederate meeting, but the delegate was not allowed to make decisions on behalf of the community.

But I have to agree with Dan that for a system like this to really work, the citizens have to be aware and willing to cooperate.  This (inherent quality to cooperate) is something that requires education/training/encouragement.  Just like the (inherent) tendency towards individualism has to be trained and habituated.

Malcolm wrote:
For Democracy of any legitimate kind to work, the citizenry needs to be literate, educated, interested, and self-informed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 8:20 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Dan74 said:
Down here, in this 'shit hole' of a country called Switzerland (thanks Amanita), we have the closest thing to a direct democracy

Malcolm wrote:
Direct democracy does not scale. In New England, we also have direct democracy at the town level. But get to the county level, it begins to show signs of weakness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 8:18 AM
Title: Re: Neo nazi's march in DC
Content:



Queequeg said:
There is nothing in Nagarjuna's counsel that suggests Buddhism should be a state-mandated religion. So your principle is not violated. I have never been impressed that Nagarjuna was an idealist.

Malcolm wrote:
It was not Nāgārjuna's counsel I was rejecting, it was yours, "A dharma government would be one that enabled dharma practice and dharma culture."

Queequeg said:
I did write that.

You introduced the term "dharma government" to this discussion. I was following up with that.

Nagarjuna counseled on how to rule according to dharma. That's all I meant by Dharma government. Looking back I don't know what you meant, but we don't mean the same thing, obviously.

Malcolm wrote:
A government where Buddhism is instituted as a legal system. Buddhism is not equipped to handle such issues.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 8:14 AM
Title: Re: Existence
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The Tibetans created a technical language to handle Buddhist terminologies.

Seeker12 said:
If I may, if the word 'emptiness' were not well established in English and you were doing a fresh translation, how would you translate tongpa nyi? Either in concise form or in more extensive explanation? I have read that this term was basically used by Vairochana during the first translation, and for example Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche states that tongpa nyi is a richer term than the English "emptiness".

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe in Sanskrit, śunyatā, but not in Tibetan. Vairocana probably translated śunyatā as "ye 'byams", which means something like "primordial infinity."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: HAM and A-shad
Content:
Jeff H said:
I'm trying to clarify two references for visualizations.
First the letter HAM: Someone at Tsegyalgar East said it looks like this: ཧྃ, but I found an old https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=6188#p72551 where he said it looks like this: ཧཱྃ. Which is correct?

Second is an "A-shad" (or A-shay?): It is described as, "the final part of the Tibetan letter A, shaped like a triangle. The triangle, that represents fire, should be visualized pointing upward." I can't find a Unicode character or a symbol on the Tibetan keyboard that looks like that, but I'm guessing it's like this:


A shad .png
(Edit: Had some trouble uploading the image attachment.)

Malcolm wrote:
The first one.

Just visualize a narrow triangle, pointing up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 15th, 2018 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: Neo nazi's march in DC
Content:



Queequeg said:
That is something up for debate, I think. Nagarjuna counseled a king on how to promote Dharma through government. A dharma government would be one that enabled dharma practice and dharma culture. One that creates the ideal conditions for Bodhisattvas to appear... like making bird houses and putting out feed to attract song birds to sing. Like ChNN's teacher's gar...

Malcolm wrote:
On principle, I reject state-mandated religions, Buddhism included. I also reject Utopianism, even Buddhist Utopianism.

Queequeg said:
There is nothing in Nagarjuna's counsel that suggests Buddhism should be a state-mandated religion. So your principle is not violated. I have never been impressed that Nagarjuna was an idealist.

Malcolm wrote:
It was not Nāgārjuna's counsel I was rejecting, it was yours, "A dharma government would be one that enabled dharma practice and dharma culture."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 14th, 2018 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Dan74 said:
Yes, fascists/alt-right are big on memes and that screenshot proves nothing.

But your second comment is telling. I don't think most voters in the US thought about it this way, but the fact that all the various faults of Trump on full public display were not enough of a deal-breaker should be a huge wake-up call to the those in the political establishment who still manage to believe in something other than filling their own pockets.

The Left has failed in the West. Dismally. Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn are the death throes of the once healthy and inspirational body of progressive politics. What is to come after I can only shudder to think..

Grigoris said:
I don't think the "left" has failed, I think representative democracy has died (long ago) and all that is left is the corporatist worms feeding on it's moldering corpse.

Dan74 said:
It's been subverted, yes. "Failed' is too strong a word for me. There are still aspects of it that function to some extent. There is some rule of law (compare to absolute monarchies, for example), there is some responsible government (due to the opposition trying to dig up dirt on it and the media sufficiently free and happy to publish the said dirt), there is some protection of some Human Rights (compare with other places again, not rights such as not to live in poverty, to have meaningful employment, etc) and there is also some separation of powers and checks and balances. It even governs for the people sometimes, I've even seen some of these people (to corrupt an old Soviet joke).

For me, the question is how to preserve the good aspects of democracy and rebuild.

Malcolm wrote:
The US is still a country of laws. As long as that remains the case, things will be fine. The problem with trump is that he and his followers do not actually respect laws. This why Trumpism is a form of fascism and must be opposed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 14th, 2018 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Neo nazi's march in DC
Content:
Queequeg said:
.
As Buddhists you ought to understand that only Dharma will end the suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
On an individual level, yes, but there is no such thing as a Dharma government. Nor could there be.

Queequeg said:
That is something up for debate, I think. Nagarjuna counseled a king on how to promote Dharma through government. A dharma government would be one that enabled dharma practice and dharma culture. One that creates the ideal conditions for Bodhisattvas to appear... like making bird houses and putting out feed to attract song birds to sing. Like ChNN's teacher's gar...

Malcolm wrote:
On principle, I reject state-mandated religions, Buddhism included. I also reject Utopianism, even Buddhist Utopianism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 13th, 2018 at 10:43 PM
Title: Dharma government?
Content:
Queequeg said:
.
As Buddhists you ought to understand that only Dharma will end the suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
On an individual level, yes, but there is no such thing as a Dharma government. Nor could there be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 13th, 2018 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:



Dan74 said:
What do you think are the right tactics to combat the alt-right, Cone?

conebeckham said:
Outing them individually.
This is what the reporters have done, and I believe it has had an effect.

Maintaining resistance, and continually calling out Trump and any other elected official when the racists are being defended by government officials.

Dan74 said:
To me, this is no different to the witchhunts of McCarthyism, when outing people for their beliefs ruined careers and lives. Of course, we could say the beliefs are poles apart, so that the tactic is justified. And yet to me this methodology smells bad both on a personal level and as a principle. There is a reason why freedom of thought is guaranteed in your constitution and curbing it by punishing people for their beliefs is an attack on something fundamental, is it not?

But the worst part to this approach seems to me to be the implied defeatism. "We cannot beat this ideology, so let's go after the people 'infected' with it. Let's punish them, make them suffer for their beliefs, make them even more resentful of the mainstream and the status quo, let's persecute them, drive them out. " Sounds familiar? Last thing I would want to make out of the fascists and the neo-Nazis, is martyrs.

I am sure I am missing a lot here, Cone, so please bear with me and if you can be bothered, set me straight.

Malcolm wrote:
Dan, perhaps it escaped your attention, but active members of the Communist party and Nazis are barrred from immigrating to the US because of their beliefs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 12th, 2018 at 10:09 AM
Title: Re: Sh#t is f@cked up and bull sh*t
Content:


justsit said:
3)"It’s now commonplace to observe that the United States is living through a Second Gilded Age." Not really sure where that comes from, I have never heard that term applied to this era. It may be a gilded age for the wealthy, but not so much for the rest of us.

Malcolm wrote:
That is the point, the gilded age was one of the eras in US history when wealth disparity was at its height.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 12th, 2018 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana
Content:


Grigoris said:
He also mentioned quite a bit of archaeological evidence of Mahayana activity in Orisa, that he went and saw first hand during his research.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no doubt that in South India, on the eastern side, Andra Pradesh there was considerable Mahāyāna activity. It is equally certain that Zahor was in the southeast, not where Tso Pema is located today. It is equally certain that Sarma accounts of the origin of Vajrayāna place it in the south east of India, as do accounts of the origin of Mantrayāna in Shingon. None of that is at issue.

What it at issue is the location of Oḍḍiyāna, and the northwest corner of India has always been considered the location of Dakinis, perhaps because in that region there were many people with red hair, a legacy of Alexander.

You might wish to read this:



Based on Orgyen Rinchenpal's description, it is in Swat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 12th, 2018 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:





Queequeg said:
You've been threading an argument arguing the need for violent confrontation of "fascists", without actually supporting it.

I don't know, man. I don't know.
Kessler himself admitted on an alt-right podcast that many of the attendees at last year’s rally were “people who aren’t used to being out of the internet,” and who didn’t recognize that their identities being public would lead to real-world problems.

No wonder, then, that in his post denouncing the second rally, neo-Nazi Andrew Anglin wrote that to go to a post-Charlottesville Unite the Right rally would potentially be life-ruining. “Getting doxed as a neo-Nazi street fighter will ruin your live [sic], forever.”

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670996/alt-right-unite-the-right-nazis-charlottesville

Dan, Ken Cormier, one of the PP guys, is a guest speaker at this weekend's DC Unite the Right 2018 rally. This rally will be attended by such lovelies as Hammer Skins, David Duke (again), etc.

Dan74 said:
Malcolm, apart from David Duke, I don't know who these people are. I am not sure we want to spread 'guilt by association' especially when association is being in the same place. But knowingly giving platform to a fascist is not on. People are of course free to attend rallies - how can you control that really?

Malcolm wrote:
You don't really seem to know who you are talking about here.



Dan74 said:
The rallies and the buffoons are the manifestation. I say we go for the root cause.


Malcolm wrote:
Sometimes, often actually, if you don't address the symptoms, the symptoms themselves are fatal. If the patient dies, there is no root cause to remove.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 12th, 2018 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
High quality.

Malcolm wrote:
I try my best.

Crazywisdom said:
It’s shows, honestly. So very clear.

Malcolm wrote:
Publishing is a team effort. And thanks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 12th, 2018 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Cool

Malcolm wrote:
However, Wisdom makes sure my translations are peer reviewed. That is the benefit of working with a major publisher, rather than self-publishing.

Crazywisdom said:
High quality.

Malcolm wrote:
I try my best. I also have two editors, plus Wisdom's editor, Laura Cunningham, as well as someone to go through Sanskrit terms, and so on. Though my name is on the translation, in reality many people touch the books.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 12th, 2018 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Cool

Malcolm wrote:
However, Wisdom makes sure my translations are peer reviewed. That is the benefit of working with a major publisher, rather than self-publishing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 12th, 2018 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Are you planning to translate the entire set of Dzogchen tantras?

Malcolm wrote:
Just the 17, they are the most important.

Crazywisdom said:
So is Tulku Dakpa overseeing your translation?

Malcolm wrote:
No. I don't need anyone to oversee my translations. But he certainly is willing to help when I have questions or doubts, as is Lama Chonam, Sangye Khandro's husband.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 12th, 2018 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Swat Valley/Oddiyana
Content:
Grigoris said:
So, spoke to Rinpoche and he told me that he is not the only scholar that disagrees with the placement of Oddiyna in Swat Valley.

Rinpoche was influenced in this decision by the research of N.K. Sahu, whom he met.  Sahu wrote an apparently well researched, but now difficult to find book:  Buddhism in Orissa, Utkal University, 1958, ASIN: B01C9Y13LO

Rinpoche believes that Sahu was correct in locating Oddiyana in Orissa and his own research has verified it for him.


Malcolm wrote:
It certainly does not correspond with the Longde histories on the location of Oḍḍyāna. One, it holds Garab Dorje was a central Indian:

Now then, there was a Dharma protecting king of the Śākya clan named *Vimalacuḍa Śākyabhadra, his queen, Sublime (Dam pa). They gave birth to very beautiful and radiant daughter who has very attractive and entrancing. Her name in Sanskrit was Sarani.

Second it holds that Oḍḍyāna was to the west:

When Garab Dorje reached eight years, he said, “Mother, you are happy here. To the west of here in the land of Oḍḍiyāna is Dhanakośa Island on the shores of the great outer ocean.

Third, there is the testimony of Orgyenpa Rinchenpal who visited Oḍḍiyāna in person in the 13th century. In order to get to Oḍḍiyāna he first traveled to Jalandhara in the Punjab. Oḍḍiyāna is described as being to the northwest of that city, and at the time of the thirteenth century, is described as being dominated by "Mongolians" speaking a Tajik language.

In fact, as far as I can tell, Oḍḍiyāna is the Tibetan name for the region of Pakistan in general.

Moreover, the Chinese traveler Faxian travelled to a place called Udyān, north of Peshwar, where people practiced mantra and what he considered a debased form of Mahāyāna.

Also it does not correspond with seven line prayer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am not making a case. You are. Not interested in your case. I am just stating as a matter of principle that fascism cannot be allow to flourish and when fascist show up to spread their ideology in public, they should be opposed.
And as group 43 illustrates, sometimes you just have to punch fascists, and that is the most effective way at stemming their influence...

Queequeg said:
You've been threading an argument arguing the need for violent confrontation of "fascists", without actually supporting it.

I don't know, man. I don't know.
Kessler himself admitted on an alt-right podcast that many of the attendees at last year’s rally were “people who aren’t used to being out of the internet,” and who didn’t recognize that their identities being public would lead to real-world problems.

No wonder, then, that in his post denouncing the second rally, neo-Nazi Andrew Anglin wrote that to go to a post-Charlottesville Unite the Right rally would potentially be life-ruining. “Getting doxed as a neo-Nazi street fighter will ruin your live [sic], forever.”

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670996/alt-right-unite-the-right-nazis-charlottesville

Dan, Ken Cormier, one of the PP guys, is a guest speaker at this weekend's DC Unite the Right 2018 rally. This rally will be attended by such lovelies as Hammer Skins, David Duke (again), etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Dan74 said:
Going back to PP, with Joey Gibson describing himself as a Conservative Libertarian, what evidence is there that the group is indeed fascist and that antifa's tactics are justified on these grounds?

Malcolm wrote:
Gibson is a fellow traveler on the right. He associates with Chapman, the Proud Boys, etc. For example, Ezra Pound claimed he was not a fascist, but by his actions, he proved he was and later admitted that his great fault was the suburban bias of anti-semitism.

Dan74 said:
Where do we draw the line between supporting a violent opposition to a group spreading a fascist ideology that has been shown to be dangerous to democracy and violent opposition to a group whose ideology we happen to disagree with?

Malcolm wrote:
While Gibson has tried to disavow white nationalism, etc., he continues to openly associate with such people. It is part of the Guns and Jesus trip in the US. Ted Nugent is probably his favorite band.

Dan74 said:
As Antifa initiate violence at counterprotests against largely mild groups like PP (as they did according to many reports) , they lose both their credibility and their moral high ground, IMO. Fascism is not a few dozen PP members, it is a way of thinking. And Antifa violence does absolutely nothing to challenge it. Rather the opposite - they make it look more attractive with folks who lack the background looking on in sympathy at the 'poor bastards getting attacked'.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but Gibson provides a forum for fascists to show up. He can claim all he likes that he is not a racist, and so on, but the fact is that white nationalists, etc., regularly show up at his rallies. Further, members of his group also belong to the Proud Boys, a definite hate group.

Dan74 said:
Yes, I am not American, but I've been around, having lived in 3 very different countries. Maybe this gives me some perspective, or maybe it just muddies it, but either way, I think your case is far from made. I will let mine rest, since it starts feeling repetitive, but thank you for all the interesting links and thoughts on the subject.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not making a case. You are. Not interested in your case. I am just stating as a matter of principle that fascism cannot be allow to flourish and when fascist show up to spread their ideology in public, they should be opposed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 7:53 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Are you planning to translate the entire set of Dzogchen tantras?

Malcolm wrote:
Just the 17, they are the most important.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 8:20 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Queequeg said:
There's a big difference between direct action and punching fascists.

It takes guts to remain non-violent. We're not talking about being a principled coward.

Malcolm wrote:
And as group 43 illustrates, sometimes you just have to punch fascists, and that is the most effective way at stemming their influence...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Dan74 said:
Malcolm, I worry not only about people getting hurt but this tactic backfiring. I think it already has delivered some PR coups to the alt-right/fascists.

You quote seems to touch on this in the last sentence, but I don't see an argument. Maybe it follows - I will have a look later, it's bedtime here.

Malcolm wrote:
From the same article:

What changed? In truth, nothing. We are observing a phenomenon that Martin Luther King, Jr. noted well in his 1963 Letter from Birmingham Jail. We are dealing with “the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action.” There is no shortage to the irony that the white moderates of today invoke MLK to decry antifa tactics as violent, but I believe (if one can so speculate) they would have been critical of his radical non-violence, predicated as it was in provoking a violent spectacle. It is a great liberal tradition to stand on the wrong side of history until that history is comfortably in the past.
And:

After I left Berlin, I visited my 82-year-old grandfather in southern Spain. He’s a British expat with a vast repertoire of embellished anecdotes, a purpling tan, and the occasional reactionary bent. One lunchtime, I asked him: “Do you think it’s okay to punch neo-Nazis?”

I asked him in particular because I was seeking a certain response, from a certain generation, at a certain distance. I wanted an incredulous “yes” and a confused expression, as if I’d asked whether fire burns or if he’d like another drink. He’s the sort of man who sees the world as if moral facts were just there, as obvious and immovable as mountains—not the constant ethical navigation of anti-fascisting we need. But I wanted my aging grandfather—whose politics are not my own—to place neo-Nazi-punching in his blunt taxonomy of right and wrong. I wanted to beg my own question.

He replied without pause: “Who could have a problem with that?”
And:
In response, the anti-fascists of the 43 Group made it their business to identify, surveil, and physically confront, disrupt, and shut down fascist organizing in London and across Britain. They used knives, knuckledusters, and crowbars. “We’re not here to kill. We’re here to maim,” they would say. The group disrupted over 2,000 meetings over five active years and is widely credited for neutralizing postwar Britain’s fascist movement. "We defended the community by making it impossible for the fascists to terrorize us," one member, Jules Konopinski, told the Guardian in 2009 when he was 79 years old. The group’s militancy drew some contemporary censure from parts of the British Jewish establishment, but for the most part its place in history is either overlooked or lauded by historians, Holocaust memorial institutions, and anti-racist groups. Famed hairdresser Vidal Sassoon was an active fighter among the group—when he died in 2012, mainstream media obituaries described him as an “anti-fascist-warrior” who was “fighting back against fascist oppression.”
And:
Antifa do not bring violence; the violence was there in the DNA of fascism and our world through which it permeates. Our violence is counter-violence in history’s unbroken dialectic of violence and counter-violence. Why not end the cycle? I repeat here the words of late philosopher Bernard Williams, who noted that " to say peace when there is no peace is to say nothing. " The question then is not one of necessary violence, but impossible non-violence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 6:10 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Dan74 said:
What I see as paramount is to defeat fascism as an ideology once and for all. To win the battle for the hearts and minds of the ordinary folks. Much harder than bashing a few heads in at a rally, but much more important, IMO.

Malcolm wrote:
Dan, you are focusing on the wrong things. You are criticizing Anti-fascists when you should be supporting them, all because you are worried that someone might get hurt. Look at who is inflicting actual damage on human beings.

Dan74 said:
Any discussion about violence and antifa must note that since 1990 there have been 450 deaths caused by white supremacist violence, compared to only one believed to be related to far-left activity in the US. While property damage, minor clashes and a few neo-Nazi black eyes drew cries of leftist extremism in the last year, a white supremacist traveled to New York with the aim to murder black men. He succeeded in stabbing and killing a homeless man. Another white supremacist in Portland killed two men who were standing up for two Muslim women on a train. A Milo Yiannopolous fan in a Make America Great Again cap shot and wounded an anti-fascist counter-protester in the stomach outside a MIlo talk in Seattle. To name a few. In the ten days that followed Trump’s election alone, the Southern Poverty Law Center reported 900 separate incidents of bias and violence against immigrants, Latinos, African Americans, women, LGBT people, Muslims, and Jews.

Antifa activists are criticized for responding with counter-violence. Centrist liberals urge that we follow Michelle Obama’s gracious direction: “When they go low, we go high.” They urge debate with fascists, and decry violent or confrontational intervention.

...

Liberal appeals to truth will not break through to a fascist epistemology of power and domination—these are Spencer and his ilk’s first principles. And it is this aspect of fascism that needs to be grasped to understand the necessity of antifa’s confrontational tactics.

Malcolm wrote:
http://evergreenreview.com/read/anti-fascist-practice-and-impossible-non-violence/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is hopeful:

And that’s big, according to Hankes, because those still left are not down with the rally. Many posts about DC’s Unite the Right rally call it a “lawsuit trap.” Remember, there was a civil rights suit brought against the organizers of Unite the Right, and the judge has issued an opinion that the organizers had conspired to violate the civil rights of Charlottesville citizens, a conspiracy that could legally be tied to the death of Heather Heyer. “If I were the folks thinking about participating, I could be quite worried that my participation could link me to violent activity that violates civil rights,” says Richard Schragger, who specializes in Constitutional and local government law at the University of Virginia School of Law. “Even if you’re exercising your First Amendment rights, you’re responsible for the outcomes.”

The DC Unite the Right rally is shaping up to be a public announcement of a new, more cautious alt-right zeitgeist. It’s fuchsia and teal website looks like an ‘80s video game. The organizer, Jason Kessler—who, according to Hanke, is now something of a pariah—has banned the swastikas and the other symbols of white supremacy that so many objected to at the last rally. Kessler is trying to massage the movement into something (somewhat) more palatable, similar to the surviving organizations Identity Evropa and Patriot Front. Identity Evropa claims to protect cultural heritage, Patriot Front claims their prejudice is patriotism, and Kessler claims to be a civil rights advocate for white people.

All of which are lies that tell the truth: the open racism we all saw at Charlottesville is being slowly pushed underground.
But of course, then there was this yesterday:



And David Duke's tweet:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Gaden Mahamudra
Content:
Lobsang Chojor said:
Hi all,

I've received received a HYT empowerment and the lama indicated the importance of practicing mahamudra and said we had permission to practice it. My question is, is the lung of the 1st Panchen Lama's mahamudra root text vital before you start the practice of mahamudra in the gelug tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
A qualified guru is vital.

Astus said:
Can't say anything about the Gelug setup, but in HYT the fourth empowerment is mahamudra

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Queequeg said:
Back in the 80's in New York there was a group called Missing Foundation. I was a little too young at the time, but from what I understand, they were basically the squatters in the East Village. They were involved with the Tompkins Sq. riots and clashes with police at the squats around there. They had some slogan, "We won't be civilized in this f*cking city!" They were straight up gutter punk anarchists.

Malcolm wrote:
You were a little too young to understand that incident. The police cause that riot.

Queequeg said:
New York City's Police Department deserves no praise for its handling of a demonstration in Tompkins Square Park in the early morning of Aug. 7. But Commissioner Ward and Police Department officials who prepared a report on the incident deserve credit for candor.

The document makes clear that what occurred was indeed the ''police riot'' some have charged. As the confrontation began to escalate, a panicky captain, finding himself in command because his deputy chief had left the scene, issued a ''10-85 forthwith'' radio call for help.

''This call is widely interpreted as being of an extreme emergency nature,'' the report says. Hundreds of police flooded into the area, though they ''had not been briefed about the event . . . were not equipped for such an encounter . . . were not under the direct supervision of a superior officer.''

Once they arrived, no one sought to form them into teams and supervise their deployment. ''Some officers obviously responded badly to these conditions,'' the report says, ''taking excessive independent actions and attempting to evade accountability by concealing their identities.''

Mr. Ward has forced the retirement of Deputy Chief Thomas Darcy, who left the scene; the transfer of Deputy Inspector Joseph Wodarski, and the retraining of Capt. Gerald McNamara, who issued the 10-85 call. The Civilian Complaint Review Board, meanwhile, has recommended departmental charges against two officers and will continue to sift 100 more complaints.

But the report makes clear that the riot reflected problems beyond individual conduct. It called for more training in crowd control and special units for riot duty. It also pointed to the department's recent rapid expansion. Thousands of new recruits lack experience on the street; the ranks of seasoned supervisors remain thin.

Those problems pose profound challenges for police management. The riot showed how dangerous the failure to recognize and confront them can be. The report suggests a commendable willingness to do so.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/26/opinion/yes-a-police-riot.html

The Missing Foundation was an industrial music band. KMFDM used to be part of that band for a short while. Pretty horrendous music. They were four guys. Not an anarchist collective. They were involved with anti-gentrfication movement.

As of 2005, Missing was a homeless guy in NYC.

http://thevillager.com/villager_119/artistwhowasoncethecenter.html

Now apparently he lives in Denver and has art in over 30 museums.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
He deliberately sent children into the streets of Alabama, on purpose, knowing it would provoke violence. He did it with full recognition of what he was doing, as a deliberate strategy.

Queequeg said:
This is different than "sowing disorder." I'm pushing back on your imprecise language.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, he pretty much sowed disorder, all right.


Queequeg said:
You should review the judgement in a Charlottesville case where one of the alt-right guys charged an protestor with assault, and it was found that the defendant was rightly not guilty of assault because he was defending a third person against an assault by the plaintiff upon that third person.
There's a lot of subtlety in the laws. You're talking about that black kid who was getting beat up in the parking lot. I don't know the details, but the kid was already getting beat up, he had no where to run to, so when those other people came to his rescue, that's a different set of facts. There must be some defense in the VA penal code.

Malcolm wrote:
Naw, it was a different case. Not the case with the young man who was brutally beaten in the garage.

Queequeg said:
Again, rule of law must be preserved. If we lose that, then we lose the whole thing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is what we were told in the 1930's. Bollocks to that mate. If the "rule of law" leads to further growth of the alt-right, it will not be a country we want to live in anymore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
He is wrong, on this score. The people who assembled last week in Portland were fascist thugs.

Queequeg said:
That article is from 2017. He was talking about another event.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, even so.

Queequeg said:
MLK deliberately sowed disorder to create this situation, to expose the racist violence that was being used against black people.


No. This mischaracterizes MLKJr. He did not sow disorder. He non-violently disobeyed laws which he and his colleagues identified as unjust. They did it in an orderly fashion.

Malcolm wrote:
He deliberately sent children into the streets of Alabama, on purpose, knowing it would provoke violence. He did it with full recognition of what he was doing, as a deliberate strategy.

Queequeg said:
But the civil rights movement wasn’t seen as nonviolent in its day — and for good reason. The most jarring evidence of this came just a month after King’s Birmingham jail letter. In May 1963, movement organizers assembled black children , some still in pigtails, to march through the streets of Birmingham and confront Bull Connor’s violent police force. It was a controversial tactic within the movement, but organizers must have known that images of jailed, beaten and cowering children would affect hearts, force a response from officials and move the movement toward its goals.

“They couldn’t have been ignorant of the terrible response,” says King biographer and New York University historian David Levering Lewis. “King and his inner circle appreciated the probable certainty of violence on the part of the establishment to trigger responses that they wanted, in terms of legislation and policies.”  The children called it “D-Day.”

Connor didn’t disappoint. He attacked the marchers with German shepherds and baton-wielding policemen. Connor’s army funneled hundreds of children and teenagers into overcrowded jail cells. Still, the kids returned to the streets the next day. And the day after that. Malcolm X, whom history treats as the movement’s violent alter ego, criticized King for the event, saying that “real men don’t put their children on the firing line.” King, on the other hand, called it “one of the wisest moves we made.”

The Children’s Crusade changed the way the movement was covered by the press. Where the crushing effects of segregated schools hadn’t won hearts, where brutal, state-sanctioned beatings of hymn-singing black men and women hadn’t gained sympathy, the nation couldn’t ignore the images of children recoiling from the raised batons of sneering police officers. Only the most distressing type of violence worked.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/01/dont-criticize-black-lives-matter-for-provoking-violence-the-civil-rights-movement-did-too/?utm_term=.73a6b988bdb0


Queequeg said:
There must be civil disobedience against these assemblies of fascists, and these people ought to be met in the street. If they provoke violence, which in fact is their chief aim, people have a right to defend themselves and those around them, as a recent court case connected with Charlottesville found.
Protesting against these groups may or may not be civil disobedience. If for instance, Unite the Right plans a march, people can go protest. If permits are required to protest and the municipality refuses to give a permit, then showing up would be civil disobedience.


Malcolm wrote:
Yup, that is what I am talking about, and screw permits.


Queequeg said:
In any event, the right to self defense is again a distinct issue. Depending on the state, self defense has certain formalities. For instance, in most states that more or less follow common law, one must first retreat before resorting to force. This is different in places like Florida where they have "Stand your Ground" statutes.

Malcolm wrote:
You should review the judgement in a Charlottesville case where one of the alt-right guys charged an protestor with assault, and it was found that the defendant was rightly not guilty of assault because he was defending a third person against an assault by the plaintiff upon that third person.

Queequeg said:
If the rule of law fails, then one might need to resort to any number of options - civil disobedience would be an option. Secession is another.

Malcolm wrote:
Under this president, the rule of law is being perverted and failing. Civil disobedience is a must.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 2:06 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Queequeg said:
The people preventing Republicans from safely assembling on the streets of Portland may consider themselves fierce opponents of the authoritarianism growing on the American right. In truth, however, they are its unlikeliest allies.
That's also Beinart.

Malcolm wrote:
He is wrong, on this score. The people who assembled last week in Portland were fascist thugs.

Queequeg said:
The problem is that Antifa's tactics undermine the rule of law, which is fine for Antifa since many are anarchists. That's not good for the rest of us. The weakening of the state actually brings us closer to the kinds of conditions where violent groups could actually take advantage. Anarchy actually just opens the way for thugs to be violent. It would be a tragedy if the violence actually does spiral out of control - that's the opportunity an authoritarian group would look for. Cops pulling back and letting the fight rage will end with bodies in the street. Violence has a tendency of escalating with revenge and recrimination. The state would need to come down even harder to bring order back.

Malcolm wrote:
MLK deliberately sowed disorder to create this situation, to expose the racist violence that was being used against black people. Fascists are allow right of free assembly, but peace groups are restricted to "free speech zones." This is not what founders intended at all.

The government is derelict in its duties to prevent assemblies of fascist thugs. Since they are derelict in this respect, the citizenry must stand up against them, and the police, if necessary.


Queequeg said:
We have a serious problem in that the Federal government has been hijacked by a fascist enabler, possibly an actual fascist, though I can't imagine that he would actually understand what that means. We have a Republican party that has completely sold out.

We need a responsible government, one that will bring the weight of the Justice Department down on these thugs. They can say what they want, but the moment they commit crimes, bring RICO down on the entire operation. There are ways to crack down - we need the political will to do that.

Malcolm wrote:
There must be civil disobedience against these assemblies of fascists, and these people ought to be met in the street. If they provoke violence, which in fact is their chief aim, people have a right to defend themselves and those around them, as a recent court case connected with Charlottesville found.

Now, if a nazi feels they've been unfairly punched in the face, give them their day in court so the full, disgusting facts of their perverted beliefs can be aired, as also happened in Charlottesville. I think they will have a hard time finding a jury willing to convict the assailant in many places in the US.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 11th, 2018 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 10th, 2018 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Dan74 said:
Greg, I am all for robust action. Not a fence-sitter or apologist here (yes, maybe a mod shouldn't engage in ad homs, come on!), had my share of activism, though not violence, at least not against living beings. I am just 1. not at all sure that violent tactics will lead to desired results 2. not sure it is the right thing to do anyway. Mostly for me it's about 1., but 2 is also a factor, because people who can be helped will get hurt when the lines between right wing "buffoons" and fascists and neo-Nazis get blurred, when everything becomes so black-and-white, and a fellow like me becomes an apologist ("with us or against us"). For a hammer, everything looks like a nail, and to some of us, sadly, every rightwinger is a Nazi.

Malcolm wrote:
No Dan, not every person with right wing views is a fascist. William Buckley, for example, was not a fascist. Ronald Reagan was not a fascist. The GOP is not a fascist party, even though they are utterly gutless these days.

Donald Trump, however, is a fascist, and it is clearly evident in his deeds and words.

Fascists are bad for the world in every way possible. They should be, as Q points out, doxxed, outed, shamed, etc. And if they ever become serious force, they should be opposed with serious force. Why? They don't believe in Democracy and democratic values. They exploit the latter to overthrow the former. In the meantime, I am not going to lose sleep over Antifa showing up and shutting down these fascist pricks. Why? I think it is a good thing that Antifa routes these people. This weekend marks the anniversary of the murder of Heather Heyer, a nonviolent protester.  She was murdered by these pitiful excuses for human beings:



With respect to Q's opinion that the Alt-right is just a bunch of clowns in Portland, this really underestimates the real situation in our country. Peter Beinart wrote last year:
Second, antifa activists don’t wield anything like the alt-right’s power. White, Christian supremacy has been government policy in the United States for much of American history. Anarchism has not. That’s why there are no statues of Mikhail Bakunin in America’s parks and government buildings. Antifa boasts no equivalent to Steve Bannon, who called his old publication, Breitbart, “the platform for the alt-right,” and now works in the White House. It boasts no equivalent to Attorney General Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III, who bears the middle name of a Confederate general and the first name of the Confederacy’s president, and who allegedly called the NAACP “un-American.” It boasts no equivalent to Alex Jones, who Donald Trump praised as “amazing.” Even if antifa’s vision of society were as noxious as the “alt-right’s,” it has vastly less power to make that vision a reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/what-trump-gets-wrong-about-antifa/537048/

So, I am glad that Antifa shows up and shows that in the America, fascists do not get a pass. Their views are noxious, and in my opinion, are not protected speech when they are brought into the commons. If people wish to have sick Hitlerian fantasies in their double wides and chatrooms, I can't do anything about that. But at least we can keep their hateful speech out of public spaces. And until our legal system catches up with the 21st century, until that time I an glad there is a solid Anti-Fascist movement in this country, just as there was in the 1920's and 30's, when the ugly face of Fascism first reared its head in the world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Dan74 said:
How do you guys square it with

“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Please don't give me the BS that "punching out a Nazi" is done with love and no hatred, that you are a wrathful manifestation of blahblah, that only Hinayanists understand this literally. An honest heartfelt answer please.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna ethics are based on intention, not on some particular set of vows. If by punching Nazis you intend to protect others, then this is a positive and meritorious act. And, if by punching a Nazi, you protect others, you also protect the Nazi from themselves.

Pretty sure Antifa is on the right side of history, here.


Rinchen Samphel said:
So...?


Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha sat on a hillside under a dead tree watching Kapilavastu being sacked and his relatives being enslaved by King Ajatasatru after having dissuaded Ajatasatru on an earlier occasion from invading.

What we do in Mahāyāna in response to pure evil is keep our eyes open and act as witnesses.
You still did not understand. Picking sides is what causes one to go to lower realms.
It depends on your understanding the real situation of samsara. If you don't understand— you join in, pick sides, and go to three lower realms. This is called having a one-lifetime view.
Did I ever once say that Buddhists should run around punching Nazis?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Dan74 said:
How do you guys square it with

“Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.”

Please don't give me the BS that "punching out a Nazi" is done with love and no hatred, that you are a wrathful manifestation of blahblah, that only Hinayanists understand this literally. An honest heartfelt answer please.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna ethics are based on intention, not on some particular set of vows. If by punching Nazis you intend to protect others, then this is a positive and meritorious act. And, if by punching a Nazi, you protect others, you also protect the Nazi from themselves.

Pretty sure Antifa is on the right side of history, here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Dan74 said:
As much as I don't doubt (and even rejoice in) your good intentions, you know what they say about the road to hell? In this case, I don't mean your rebirth but the future of your country.

Malcolm wrote:
We have a long tradition of punching Nazis in this country, going back to the Spanish Civil War.

Interestingly, Elle Reeve, who covered Charlottesville for Vice, was on CNN this morning, and she said that Antifa is so well organized via the internet, they really have managed to route the vast majority of Alt-right events, and that the Alt-right is very frustrated by Antifa.

Good job Antifa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 12:09 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sometimes you just have to punch Nazis. It is a solid American bodhisattva tradition. But you’re not American, so I guess you just don’t get it.

Dan74 said:
OK, let me try it another way. Let's break down the proantifa argument step by step.

1. PP, Proud Boys and the like are fascists or proto-fascists.

I've seen some whacky views expressed by individual members and roguish behavious, but does that mean the whole group can be determined to be fascists, let alone neo-Nazis? Shouldn't the views of the leaders, as well as the entirety of what they put out be considered? Any group will have some loons. And Tiny  apparently assaulting a guy after a heated exchange is adduced as evidence that the groups he belongs to are fascists?? Hmmm...unconvincing, but not the weakest of the bunch.


2. They might be small and insignificant now, but so was NSDAP or its progenitors. And look where that led to.

Argumentum ad Hitlerium. There are so many differences between the US and Weimar Republic, but even this could perhaps hold. It is conceivable that such groups will grow, mutate and attempt to undermine the very democratic order that they currently say they are standing up for. Yes, PP repeatedly say they are big on freedoms, right, etc. Not exactly Mr Hilter and his Munich buddies, but hey, very unlikely but possible.


3. If we don't nip them in the bud, with violence and whatever means necessary, this is what's bound to happen.

This, to me, is by far, the weakest link. It betrays a lack of belief not only in the 1st Amendment but in democracy itself - the power of non-violent action, civic discourse and a fundamental distrust of the voters. The choice is painted as being between antifa violence and non-action. Organising a  powerful grassroots alternative to corrupt pollies and rightwing loons is not on the cards, is it? Winning over people's hearts and minds with coherent and fair policies, better arguments and a sensinble compassionate ideology is just a pipe dream, is it? So it's goodbye democracy then. It is indeed a sad indictment of your society if it's best minds turn to this sort of thinking. It won't take much to undermine the democratic order when it already is so weak. Vigilantes, taking law into your own hands, is all fair game. Next time people turn out to protest Trump like they did in 2016 many refusing to accept the outcome of the democratic election, the Trumpistas can organise and beat the crap out of them, since they judge them to be a danger to society. Oh boy, good luck and gawd bless America..


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 9:23 AM
Title: Re: Ngondro vs. Yidam?
Content:
Tenma said:
What is the difference between Ngondro practice and yidam practice?

Malcolm wrote:
If you really understand ngondro, nothing at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Queequeg said:
So, you believe in punching fascists as a presently necessary strategy.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that's just catharsis.

Interestingly, if you apply to become an American citizen, they still ask you two things: 1) are you a member of the Nazi Party. 2) Are you a member of the Communist Party? Answer yes to either of those two questions, you are not going to get your naturalization papers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Still think there is no problem?

Queequeg said:
Reading comprehension, my friend.

Please go back and see.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, I could say that same thing to you.

Who said it was a strategy? I just don't see anything particularly wrong with the act. If anyone deserves to be punched, it's fascists. It is better than breaking shop windows.

Now then, what I do think is that the recently reinvigorated forces of intolerance in our society need to be curtailed, and if they will not be curtailed through reasoned discussion, then I think it a necessary social obligation to curtail them through force.

Nonviolence does not work against these people. Never has, never will.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Queequeg said:
You keep losing credibility. Comparing the US to Germany is just lazy. Even Greg recognizes a difference.

Malcolm wrote:
The point was it does not take a large number of people to start a movement that can take over a country and murder millions. Look at the Bolsheviks for a left wing example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Queequeg said:
You guys are panting like Patriot Prayer, that drew, what, a few hundred people, to Portland, Oregon, is a threat to the rule of law in the United States. A group that had to draw on a large geographical area, to get a few hundred people out, is an existential threat.

Grigoris said:
It does not take more than a couple of hundred well armed people (with police or army backing, or non-involvement) to stage a coup.

Queequeg said:
Bro, you're out of your element. No offense, but your commentary about the United States is often tone deaf and off the mark. This is no exception. Just because Malcolm is here doubling down in parallel to you doesn't give your insight any more credibility.

There are many things I worry about in this country - a coup by some yahoos based in the Pacific Northwest is not one of them.
Granted that the conditions that allowed this to happen are not the same as those that exist now, but do not underestimate the power of hatred.
I don't. Which is why I try to steer clear of it in my thoughts, words, and actions.

Things are very different here. If things go down, it won't look like anything that happened in Europe.

We've had terrorist states in this country pretty much since the beginning. We've even had some of their politicians serve as president.

Frankly, I'm more concerned that some military or paramilitary might pull off a coup than anyone else, and the way they'd do it and the explanation they would have would probably be much easier for the powers that be to swallow than these "Fascists."

It won't be Spartacus. It will be the Praetorian Guard.


Malcolm wrote:
If you think these clowns are not civilians proxies for fascists in uniform, within our armed forces and police...well...

Queequeg said:
The 18-year-old, excited by his handiwork at the bloody rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, last summer, quickly went online to boast. He used the handle VasillistheGreek.

“Today cracked 3 skulls open with virtually no damage to myself,” the young man wrote on Aug. 12, 2017.

Vasillios Pistolis had come to the now infamous Unite the Right rally eager for such violence. He belonged to a white supremacist group known as Atomwaffen Division, a secretive neo-Nazi organization whose members say they are preparing for a coming race war in the U.S. In online chats leading up to the rally, Pistolis had been encouraged to be vicious with any counterprotestors, maybe even sodomize someone with a knife. He’d responded by saying he was prepared to kill someone “if shit goes down.”

...

Last year, nearly 25 percent of active-duty service members surveyed by the Military Times said they’d encountered white nationalists within the ranks. The publication polled more than 1,000 service members.

The results are jarring in a number of ways, not least because each branch of the armed forces has regulations that bar service members from joining white supremacist organizations. Army policy, for example, forbids soldiers from participating in “extremist groups” that foster “racial, gender, or ethnic hatred or intolerance.” The Marine Corps has a similar regulation, Order 1900.16, which mandates swift penalties for Marines caught engaging in “extremist or supremacist activities.”

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.propublica.org/article/atomwaffen-division-hate-group-active-duty-military


Queequeg said:
California police investigating a violent white nationalist event worked with white supremacists in an effort to identify counter-protesters and sought the prosecution of activists with “anti-racist” beliefs, court documents show.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/09/california-police-white-supremacists-counter-protest

Still think there is no problem?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Seriously? I just have to step back a moment.

You guys are panting like Patriot Prayer, that drew, what, a few hundred people, to Portland, Oregon, is a threat to the rule of law in the United States. A group that had to draw on a large geographical area, to get a few hundred people out, is an existential threat.

Malcolm wrote:
Beer Hall Putsch, 1923.

Queequeg said:
You say it is in fact such a threat that violence against them is justified.

Malcolm wrote:
You have to kill fascism in the cradle.

Queequeg said:
To listen to you, you'd think there were full blown riots in the street. C'mon, man. This wasn't Rodney King.

Malcolm wrote:
If we listen to you, that day is not far off.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Dan74 said:
It sounds to me like people's beef is fundamentally with the 1st Amendment. Then you should work to change it rather than advocating violence, breaking the law, assaulting people on the basis of their (perceived) beliefs and such.

The dude with swastica would be breaking the law in Germany but the 1st Amendment protects him. PP, from what I've seen of them, have largely been within their right to peacefully rally, but you don't like what you think they stand for, so you want them bashed and chased off the streets. The thing is, this cuts both ways. You start abridging people's right and your turn will come.
There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting" words--those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.

Malcolm wrote:
Chaplinsky vs. New Hampshire, 1942.

Not all speech is protected speech. I have no problem with driving hate speech off the streets of the USA.

These are the people you earlier described as "...conservative chest thumping patriotic folks, not racist (they have prominent members who are black and pacific islander), not exclusively Christian, but mostly."

Dan74 said:
A man from Portland, Oregon says he was attacked by a member of the far-right Proud Boys group who has links to a Republican Senate candidate in Washington state.

Tim Ledwith, 34, said he was punched by Tusitala “Tiny” Toese, 22, who is aligned with the Proud Boys, a “western chauvinist” group founded by Gavin McInnes, a co-founder of the Vice Media empire.

Toese is also a prominent member of Vancouver, Washington-based Patriot Prayer, a group that has staged rallies that have often turned violent in the Pacific north-west over the past year. Patriot Prayer is led by Joey Gibson, a Republican candidate in the US Senate primary in Washington.

Tim Ledwith’s injuries following the alleged attack by Tsuitala ‘Tiny’ Toese.

Tim Ledwith’s injuries following the alleged attack by Tsuitala ‘Tiny’ Toese. Photograph: Handout
Ledwith said the attack happened in a busy shopping area in Portland at around 2.30pm on Friday 8 June. Toese and two other men had been yelling at strangers from a truck, he said.

“They were yelling: ‘Support Trump, build the wall,’” Ledwith said.

Ledwith responded with a profanity, he said, and the men stopped their vehicle. Ledwith said Toese and another man, Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer supporter Donovan Flippo, got out.

“They were calling me a faggot and slinging epithets at me,” Ledwith said. “Tiny walked over calmly and … punched me in the face. I’m like, half his size. I was not a threat to them. I’m 34 years old, not 17. This is not a thing that happens to me day-to-day.”

Ledwith said the punch knocked him to the ground and opened a gash in his lip. He was treated at hospital, he said, receiving several stitches.

A witness, who did not wish to be identified, told the Guardian she saw the attack from a block away. Toese, she said, punched Ledwith. Flippo, she said, stood beside Toese but was not physically involved. Ledwith offered no physical provocation, the witness said, and did not respond violently.

Photos showed Ledwith’s injuries and Flippo walking towards the pickup truck, wearing a T-shirt marked “Antifa Removal Service”. The pickup, which carries Washington plates, is registered to Russell Schultz of Vancouver, Washington, a known attendee at Patriot Prayer rallies.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/16/portland-proud-boys-alleged-attack-man-patriot-prayer-joey-gibson

All kinds of Nazis, white supremacists, and so on show up at these rallies.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has a page just for the Proud Boys.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/proud-boys

You can find Kyle Chapman's crazy statements here as well:
“I am not afraid to speak out about the atrocities that whites and people of European descent face not only here in this country but in Western nations across the world. The war against whites, and Europeans and Western society is very real and it’s time we all started talking about it and stopped worrying about political correctness and optics.”
—Kyle Chapman, who formed the Fraternal Order of Alt-Knights, a wing of the Proud Boys, Unite America First Peace Rally, Sacramento, California, July 8, 2017

It is not your country Dan, it is mine. And I think these kinds of people need to be met with opposition, forceful opposition if necessary. They do not believe in a liberal open society. Like Popper points out, there is only so much room a tolerant society can have for the intolerant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: General Question Regarding Vajrayana Etiquette and Samaya
Content:
CicadaCanto said:
This is a general question.

Suppose one has a vajra relationship with a teacher (even a group of teachers) and a karmic connection to a cycle of teachings that one has committed to the practice of.

What that might look like is receiving empowerments, instructions and transmissions from a teacher or group of teachers and actively engaging in the practices. Doing the ngondro, accomplishing different practices by numbers or signs, doing certain types of training.

What about taking teachings from another teacher in that context?

My teacher wouldn't really care. As long as I practice purely and hold the lineage teachings.

But having considered this for some time, going and receiving these other teachings, it makes me wonder about my motivation. I have already been given a complete path. It comes down to, in pragmatic terms, whether I wish to receive these other teachings, or engage in retreat on my main practices. There is only so much time and money.

-CC


Malcolm wrote:
If you are interested in the teacher, then go. If it is only the teaching you are interested in, then do not go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:



Unknown said:
February 20, 1939. Original Caption: Fight For The Flag... Anti Nazis Battle Cops. Mounted Policemen and rabid Anti Nazis battle for an American flag outside Madison Square Garden. The Anti-Nazis were parading outside the Garden in protest of the German American Bund "Americanization" rally being held there. This was only one of the night's many clashes between the demonstrators and heavy force of policemen who were on hand to preserve order. #

Malcolm wrote:
Not much as has changed:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Queequeg said:
You're talking about indulging in anger and intimidating people to go back into their closets.

Malcolm wrote:
You say I am talking about indulging in afflicted anger. I am not. The impulse to eliminate fascism and its proponents is righteous, not afflictive.

Queequeg said:
That's not fascist, but that definitely sounds like a totalitarian impulse. That path sounds terrible, too.

Malcolm wrote:
In The Open Society and Its Enemies, Popper wrote:
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
This is where we are at with burgeoning fascist movement in this country. The line outlined in red certainly sounds like our dear leader, and his followers are responding just as expected, with fists and pistols:



Queequeg said:
California, Uber Alles

Malcolm wrote:
Dead Kennedies were poseurs. Horrible band.

Queequeg said:
He wrote that in the midst of the Civil Rights struggle, while he was daily staring down what you might call "fascists". He declared himself an extremist for love, led a radically non-violent movement, and I'd say, won some major fights for love, through love. He was killed for this. So were others. And the final chapter in the struggle for justice is not yet written. We carry that baton right now, and what we do will impact how this struggle plays out in the future. Buying into the Anarchist MO... Tell, when has that worked out?

Malcolm wrote:
The Civil Rights issue is a distraction. We are not talking about suppressed minorities struggling for civil rights after 400 years of systematic brutalization —— though that will be an eventual issue again if the political direction of this country continues in the way it is going.

We are talking about a movement to the far right in the United States driven by racists and fundamentalist Christians that would make a movement such as the Civil Rights movement impossible without protracted and bloody civil war. (But wait, the history of US politics has always been about slavery, since day one -- that's what the second amendment and the electoral college were designed to protect, slavery, and we already fought a bloody civil war that made MLK and the Civil Rights movement possible.)

Think Handmaiden's Tale without the costumes. Think of Christian Dominionists taking howitzers to the stupas in Leverett and Grafton. This is a different kind of issue with different stakes.

As Wallace wrote in the Times, in 1944:
American fascism will not be really dangerous until there is a purposeful coalition among the cartelists, the deliberate poisoners of public information, and those who stand for the K.K.K. type of demagoguery.
...

Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion. American fascists of this stamp were clandestinely aligned with their German counterparts before the war, and are even now preparing to resume where they left off, after “the present unpleasantness” ceases:

The symptoms of fascist thinking are colored by environment and adapted to immediate circumstances. But always and everywhere they can be identified by their appeal to prejudice and by the desire to play upon the fears and vanities of different groups in order to gain power. It is no coincidence that the growth of modern tyrants has in every case been heralded by the growth of prejudice. It may be shocking to some people in this country to realize that, without meaning to do so, they hold views in common with Hitler when they preach discrimination against other religious, racial or economic groups. Likewise, many people whose patriotism is their proudest boast play Hitler's game by retailing distrust of our Allies and by giving currency to snide suspicions without foundation in fact.

The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact. Their newspapers and propaganda carefully cultivate every fissure of disunity, every crack in the common front against fascism. They use every opportunity to impugn democracy. They use isolationism as a slogan to conceal their own selfish imperialism...They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective toward which all their deceit is directed is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection.
Sound like someone we know?

Queequeg said:
Seems love does work. Love takes sacrifice, endurance and patience.

Malcolm wrote:
It didn't seem to help Gay people, Jews, Gypsies, and so on in Nazi Germany very much. They didn't stand a chance. The world stood by and watched.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 9th, 2018 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: Garchen giving Ratna Lingpa's Vajrakilaya
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The Khön kilaya is the extant kahma lineage. AFAIK

Malcolm wrote:
There are several extant Kama Vajrakilaya lineages, not just the Khon Kilaya. What sets the Khon Kilaya apart is that its lineage has been continuous in a single family. But it has no completion stage practice.

Crazywisdom said:
Which are the other Kama lineages?

Malcolm wrote:
There are several: The Tantra tradition, largely arranged and preserved by Jigme Lingpa; Ronzom's tradition; Rog's tradition, and the Tsogyal Aural Lineage,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Naww Q...Malcolm and Greg are absolutely right! As practitioners of Buddhadharma, whenever and wherever we find these alt-right/fascist/neo-nazi bastards we should immediately walk up and punch them in the face! They must be stopped at all costs!!  I mean, its not like they are sentient beings who were our own mothers at one time and should have our practice dedicated to them so they can see past their fears and anger or anything...
(now awaiting the comebacks of ego bruised rationalizations and severe condemnations... )

Malcolm wrote:
They are deluded mothers who are better off having their continuums liberated into the dharmadhātu before they can wreck more havoc. Pacifying, enriching, and subjugation does not seem to be have much effect on fascists. Their continuums are too afflicted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We are already in a time of real violence. Just open your eyes. Racist violence is happening everyday to people of color across the US.

...

Things have gotten worse under this administration, not better, since so many white Americans have found their inner Klansman.

Queequeg said:
Its always nice to be lectured about the impact of racism by a white person.

Malcolm wrote:
Information is information. It does not have a color.

Queequeg said:
You don't need to tell me about the increase in racism since Trump was elected. I live it. Its kind of back to the way it used to be. The inflection is different this time around.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is more ideologically driven. Before, it was just the status quo.

Queequeg said:
We made real progress under Obama. While I'm dismayed at how things are going, I have hope and confidence that a decent person in the White House can have a profound impact on this. I understand very well the importance of that Bully Pulpit.

Malcolm wrote:
This Genii is not going to be stuffed back in the bottle so easily since it is precisely a reaction to Obama.

Queequeg said:
Study after study is actually showing that violence is on the decline across the globe.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is a benefit of globalization. The backlash to globalization is an  worldwide increase in nationalism, however.

Queequeg said:
Depending on how you define, "a time of real violence", I don't think the current circumstances are anything new. In some ways, racist violence in the US has ameliorated - we don't have widespread lynching anymore, for instance. In many respects, its still the same - being black still increases the chance of death by cop.

Malcolm wrote:
It is true the civil rights movement put an end to informal lynchings because of the passage of the civil rights act, etc. That has not ended the daily violence people of color endure, unfortunately, because racism is generally learned from one's parents, even though it is no longer enshrined by laws.

Queequeg said:
What we do have, and what causing the current state of agitation is that we have NFL players inconveniently reminding people about police violence against blacks. We have major sports heroes blowing off invitations to the White House. We have major celebrities being outspokenly black.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the cause of racist violence against people of color. Racism is the cause of racist violence against people of color.

Queequeg said:
Animosity does not eradicate animosity.
Only by loving kindness is animosity dissolved.
This law is ancient and eternal.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, but this is not a recommendation to be pacifists.

You seem to think Fascism can be loved out of existence. History has shown this is a mistake.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Teacher Qualities
Content:
LoveFromColorado said:
Hey everyone,

I have a few basic questions that would help my understanding of Dzogchen a little bit.  I have not yet received a transmission or pointing out instructions and my questions stem from my current situation:

1. How does one know that a teacher is indeed a realized Dzogchen teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
You can't. So you should select your teacher based on their qualities of learning, practice, retreat, compassion, and kindness. When you take someone as a guru, you are to regard them as being the Buddha in person, even if they are not a realized person themselves.

LoveFromColorado said:
2. How does one become a teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
Students ask you to teach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Garchen giving Ratna Lingpa's Vajrakilaya
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The Khön kilaya is the extant kahma lineage. AFAIK

Malcolm wrote:
There are several extant Kama Vajrakilaya lineages, not just the Khon Kilaya. What sets the Khon Kilaya apart is that its lineage has been continuous in a single family. But it has no completion stage practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Queequeg said:
The justification to "punch fascists" as a political statement is premised on the assertion that "fascists" only understand violence.

There is a huge assumption there. It also doesn't stand up to analysis.

This rationale sounds more like an excuse to act out anger and frustration.

Nothing convinces me that violence is the right way to deal with this. Not at this time. It seems to me this actually brings us closer to real violence.

Malcolm wrote:
We are already in a time of real violence. Just open your eyes. Racist violence is happening everyday to people of color across the US.

Queequeg said:
We need de-escalation. Not escalation.

Malcolm wrote:
Things have gotten worse under this administration, not better, since so many white Americans have found their inner Klansman.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:



Queequeg said:
If no one obliges his invitation to rumble, he just looks like a spastic star wars cosplayer.

Takes two to tango.

You have not convinced me that a wall of silence is not a better protest.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:


Pema Rigdzin said:
Jehanne, the event Seeking Wisdom was talking about is in fact free, and it involves a master with true knowledge of the natural state giving clear, thorough instructions on how to go about getting to know something about one’s own mind and gaining knowledge of its true nature for oneself. Attending such teachings, and the attendant transmission, is the best possible way to go about gaining knowledge first hand for oneself.

Jehanne said:
Ok, sorry I mixed up the issue about payment. Definately worth going there then, but still also important to actually do the practise at home, too

My favourite quote of the month from Alan Wallace: "(There are) two approaches to identifying the mind. We can receive pointing out instructions from a qualified master, or we can just do the practice."

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot practice any kind of real Dzogchen practice without empowerment. Alan Wallace knows this, which is why he gives empowerments to the more advanced people in his program.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:



Queequeg said:
I agree there is no moral equivalence.

The question is not whether to respond, but how. It is a very difficult question for me. I am very conflicted about it.

Are we at that point that we need to put on armor and take up arms? Can we de-escalate and reset with Gandhi/King commitment to non-violence?

I would be interested to see this question discussed fully by fellow DharmaWheelers.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not that conflicteded. I am not advocating war, but these fascist bastards need to understand they are in the extreme minority and that decent people are not going to put up with their crap.

Dan74 said:
When 'the fascist bastards' act more like 'decent people' than the ones who most visibly oppose them, then we hand them the biggest PR coup they could possibly dream of.

Malcolm wrote:
I am talking about real fascist bastards, like this one:




Dan74 said:
To be brutally honest, I think many on the Left in the Anglophone West have become so intolerant that they scream 'Nazi' the moment anyone mentions a remotely conservative idea.


Malcolm wrote:
First of all, most people on the left would not characterize me as a leftist. At best, you might characterize me as an eco-Keynsian with left-libertarian inclinations.

Secondly, I know the difference between real fascists and conservatives. William Buckley was a conservative. Anne Coulter is a fascist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Queequeg said:
I don't see why "punching fascists" should be a strategy.

Grigoris said:
1.  Because neo-Nazis rely on fear, when you punch them in the face publicly, it shows everybody that they bleed, just like everybody else.  It shows that they are as fragile as everybody else.  2.  Neo-Nazis believe they are invincible.  Punching them in the face reminds them of their mortality.

Punching fascists is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end.

The other thing that punching fascists does, is it keeps them busy, so they cannot go off and terrorise defenseless innocents (as they are want to do).  It draws their attention away from their victims.  Actually:  white people punching fascists is probably one of the best uses of their white privilege.

Malcolm wrote:
Punching fascists is indeed a privilege.  It should be a right, too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:



Queequeg said:
You are a man of convictions, thankfully with rectified moral compass. A worthy and admirable trait. I'm conflicted until I commit, and on the method of confronting the hard right I see no clear path, except that I still hold out that a non-violent approach would be the preferred, and I'll further assert, the correct path.

Malcolm wrote:
Fascists don't understand nonviolence. They are not common soldiers being asked to shoot into unarmed crowds, they are ideologically committed.

Queequeg said:
From reports, Antifa numbers are far greater than the right wingers. I don't see why "punching fascists" should be a strategy.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not my strategy, but I don't lose any sleep when harmful people who are enemies of the Dharma get punched. Maybe it's a Vajrayāna thing. When enemies of the Dharma on the left suffer the same fate, for example, in China, I also lose no sleep. If Muslim, Christian, or any enemies of the Dharma are stopped, this is a good thing.

Queequeg said:
What is won? What's the reasoned justification for dressing up like you're going to some urban riot cosplay and getting into fights?

Malcolm wrote:
I think the point is to make fascists afraid again. In my view, not a bad thing at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:



Queequeg said:
King's legacy was washed out.  SNCC's story prevailed. Why? Because anger is easier than love.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is easier to be afflicted than non-afflicted. Nevertheless, in general, there is no moral equivalence between Antifa and the Alt Right. The latter need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary. The 1930's should have taught us that, no?

Queequeg said:
I agree there is no moral equivalence.

The question is not whether to respond, but how. It is a very difficult question for me. I am very conflicted about it.

Are we at that point that we need to put on armor and take up arms? Can we de-escalate and reset with Gandhi/King commitment to non-violence?

I would be interested to see this question discussed fully by fellow DharmaWheelers.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not that conflicteded. I am not advocating war, but these fascist bastards need to understand they are in the extreme minority and that decent people are not going to put up with their crap.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The latter [alt-right] need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary.

Rick said:
Hope you don't mind my butting in for a beat?

1. Can you think of a reasonably possible scenario in which this might happen?

2. Say it does happen ... wouldn't the backlash from the shut-downees be horrifying?

Malcolm wrote:
1. Anywhere they show up and spew hate.

2. The alternative is far worse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:



Queequeg said:
King's legacy was washed out.  SNCC's story prevailed. Why? Because anger is easier than love.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is easier to be afflicted than non-afflicted. Nevertheless, in general, there is no moral equivalence between Antifa and the Alt Right. The latter need to be shut down hard, with force if necessary. The 1930's should have taught us that, no?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Fire Suppression Sadhanas?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
All over the West USA fire danger is growing.  When people are in mortal danger is there any practice that can turn aside or stop a big fire?

City of 10 Thousand Buddhas, in Talmage California is in such peril right now.


Malcolm wrote:
From the Effortless Accomplishment of Wishes

SA CHU ME LUNG JUNG WEY BAR CHEY KYI/  
When fearful times come and there is danger for the illusory body

GYU LUS NYEN CHING JIG PEY DU JUNG TSE 
because of obstacles of the elements of earth, water, fire and air; 

YID NI THE TSOM MEY PAR SOL WA DEB
by offering a supplication without second thoughts or doubt

ORGYEN JUNG WA ZHI YI LHA MOR CHEY
to Padmasambhava with the goddesses of the four elements

JUNG WA RANG SAR ZHI WAR THE TSOM MEY
without doubt the elements will be naturally pacified:

ORGYEN PADMA JUNG NEY LA SOL WA DEB
I supplicate Padmasambhava of Oddiyāna

SAM PA LHUN GYI DRUB PAR JIN GYI LOB
bless us that our wishes be effortlessly accomplished!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Ngondro: A Stand Alone Practice For You?
Content:
Terma said:
This is mainly a question for those who have finished their ngondro or at the very least a good chunk of the way through.

Do you think it is better to do ngondro as a stand alone practice, meaning focusing only on that and not doing any other daily practices? Or do you feel there is some benefit to doing a short daily practice along with doing the accumulations?

Everyone is different and every  teacher gives different advice. Having said that, how you go about it?

Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Ngondro is sufficient by itself as a daily practice, since it contains all the essentials of creation and completion stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan medicine is quack and cultural baggage
Content:
Toenail said:
Tibetan doctors think worms (parasites) are made out of mud, prescribe medicine with heavy metal in it or bird shit. How can anyone take it seriously? There is just anecdotal evidence. How come they say it does not work because of the missing karmic link to the doctor, but an Aspirin works every single time? They say they prurify [sic] the mercury, but the way it is pourified [sic] in peeing on it and burying it while doing mantras on full moon. That seems crazy and not even lifestyle californians [sic] should think it is a cool thing to try out that stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
You could not be more ignorant about Tibetan Medicine if you tried. Who told you that Tibetan doctors think parasites are made of mud? Who told you that mercury was processed by peeing on it? Who taught you how to spell?

I have studied Tibetan Medicine for many years, read Tibetan quite well, and everything you have stated here is utter crap.

Matylda said:
I do not want to take sides, since I have poor knowledge of TB, lets say I know nothing about it. But one thing... I met one lama, who was very sick. And I was told that he was poisoned by heavy inteka of TB pills. Anyway he was poisoned by mercury. I was very surprised of course. He told me that he was treated by some famous TB doc and was himself very upset by this what happned to him, and was very angry with the doc. After a few years of some other treatment probably WM, he got better.
So I wondered at that time about safety of those TM pills. I have no idea how they are produced etc. and if there is any control over the whole process. I am used to WM and traditional Japanese medicine but only as patient, not an expert. TJM  schools in Japan are under strict control, and there are serious limits for those with a license to have an access to needls, and other medical stuff for safety reasons. How is it with TM docs? and who controls their medications?

Malcolm wrote:
There are not that many TM pills that have mercury sulfide. The reason is that mercury sulfide is hard to prepare and the knowledge if its preparation is rare these days. There are only a few senior physicians who have the know how to make it, mercury sulfide preparation requires larges teams working 24/7, for a period of three months, and it is dangerous work.

Matylda said:
Cinnabar-containing traditional medicines are generally relatively non-toxic at therapeutic doses. The correct preparation methods, appropriate doses, disease status, age and drug combinations are important factors impacting cinnabar toxicity (1, 8, 31).

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2755212/

There are GMP plants for Tibetan Medicine in China, but these processes make medicine that is much inferior to the quality of handmade Tibetan medicine crafted in small pharmacies. Traditionally, herbs are stone ground, but in these plants, everything has to be made of steel, which adds hrat that destroys the essential oils which are the active ingredient in the herbs. Not only this, but these plants source inferior herbs from lower altitudes. It is a known fact that plants that grow at altitude where there is less oxygen are more mineral rich etc. This is why Himalayan herbs are superior to their lowland counterparts.

It is possible the lama you are referring to was given improperly prepared medicine. The risks of mercury sulfite compounds is well known in Tibetan Medicine and the warnings about misuse and poor preparation of them are quite stern.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The difference is that Antifa want to protect people, where as Nazis get off on hurting people

Grigoris said:
Thing is though that Antifa are just childish, whereas these right-wing nuts are plain dangerous.  Mainly because they are armed to the teeth too.

Take the recent Patriot Prayer rally.  Police colluded with the neo-Nazis, allowing them to go to the protest armed (with firearms) while shaking down Antifa counter-protesters and arresting them for possession of non-existent weapons.  They then proceeded to gas and beat the crap out of Antifa while leaving their neo-Nazi mates unperturbed.

In Greece the neo-Nazis used to blow off their pent-up sexual energy beating up migrants (killed a couple) and then one day decided to kill a Greek Antifa (knifed him to death).  Then the Antifa got real serious and raided and shot-up a neo-Nazi gathering killing two people and seriously wounding a third.

It took the arrest of key neo-Nazis to stop an all out urban war happening in Athens.

How long is it going to be before one of these trigger-happy "silly men" or "buffoons" makes the mistake of shooting somebody and starting a civil war?

I remember a short time ago one of them pulled a gun and shot warning rounds in the ground in front of Antifa counter-protesters, so it is not going to be long before something REALLY stupid happens.  And then things will no longer be funny at all...

And the first people to justify what will happen will be these "silly men" and "buffoons" and, of course, every intellectually-challenged American's favorite president...


lord-turner-donald-trump-is-a-racist-sexist-buffoon-and-a-threat-to-world-peace.jpg

Remember:  He endorsed the sexual predator in the Cohen video, so I am sure he will have no problem supporting the neo-Nazis when they start their killing rampage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 5:31 AM
Title: Re: Existence
Content:
↑ said:
all things are clearly apparent yet do not truly exist ... all these manifestations are temporary, adventitious phenomena.

tomschwarz said:
Leaving aside the super interesting debate about translation, because i bet this translation of tibetan to english is quite bad/incorrect, please in your own voice, based on your own understanding haha, questions:

1) What does truly exist (other than our beloved dependent origination)?  Does the planet earth exist (for 4 billion years so far)?

2) Can something go in and out of existance?  Like the human being sidartha gauthama?

3) is everything an illusion?  If no, what is not an illusion?   Is happiness an illusion?  Fyi in standard english illusion means:
an instance of a wrong or misinterpreted perception of a sensory experience.  So if all of buddha dharma does not exist, if its all an illusion, then is perception as a whole the wrong way to go?

Malcolm wrote:
The term in Tibetan is sgyu ma, which in Sanskrit is māya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Existence
Content:
Rick said:
Interesting, thanks.

Sanskrit has a lot of rich idiosyncratic “spiritual” terms that don’t translate all that well into English. How do they translate into Tibetan? Or does Tibetan actually use Sanskrit words in their texts?

Malcolm wrote:
The Tibetans created a technical language to handle Buddhist terminologies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: ripples in the Net
Content:


Supramundane said:
in this vale of tears no truly pure action is possible.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so, practicing the path is a pure karma that never leads to suffering, but rather, away from it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Existence
Content:
Rick said:
Okay then forget the "comparatively."

In your experience, are Tibetan dharma teachings difficult to translate into English? Is Tibetan a highly nuanced language, the meaning is in the eye of the beholder kinda thing? Or is it more mechanical, attain a reasonable degree of fluency and the translation takes care of itself.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan is a relatively simple language with a relatively simple grammar. The most difficult thing about it is that it lacks synonyms, so the same words pull multiple duties depending on context. On the other hand, the language of Dzogchen texts is fairly straightforward, if a bit wordy sometimes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Existence
Content:
Rick said:
Aha.

Hey Malcolm, I'm gonna assume you've done some translation from other (European) languages to English, yes? Would you say that (dharmic) Tibetan is comparatively difficult to translate?

Malcolm wrote:
No. I only know Tibetan and English, smattering of Sanskrit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Existence
Content:
Rick said:
Oy ... that explains a lot.

Malcolm wrote:
Others would translate the term as "illusion."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 7th, 2018 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Existence
Content:
Rick said:
What is a "phantom emanation?"

Malcolm wrote:
You are.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, since arhats have traces of ignorance, this is sufficient to maintain their continuums, albeit not as a birth in any of the three realms.

Astus said:
I'm not arguing to prove that the Yogacara interpretation is correct, only to show that they had no problem accepting what is taught by sravakayana schools about the destination of arhats.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they do have a problem with it, otherwise Asanga would not have written what he wrote. The fault is that śravakas enter into a mental body in a permanent cessation with no chance of escape without intervention. Otherwise, the yogacarins too would be at fault for accepting cessation as an extreme.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan medicine is quack and cultural baggage
Content:
Toenail said:
Tibetan doctors think worms (parasites) are made out of mud, prescribe medicine with heavy metal in it or bird shit. How can anyone take it seriously? There is just anecdotal evidence. How come they say it does not work because of the missing karmic link to the doctor, but an Aspirin works every single time? They say they prurify [sic] the mercury, but the way it is pourified [sic] in peeing on it and burying it while doing mantras on full moon. That seems crazy and not even lifestyle californians [sic] should think it is a cool thing to try out that stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
You could not be more ignorant about Tibetan Medicine if you tried. Who told you that Tibetan doctors think parasites are made of mud? Who told you that mercury was processed by peeing on it? Who taught you how to spell?

I have studied Tibetan Medicine for many years, read Tibetan quite well, and everything you have stated here is utter crap.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point is that the pure aggregates do not cease contra your assertion.

Astus said:
The pure form of the aggregates are present during sopadhisesa-nirvana - that is what the word means - but its other part, nirupadhisesa, means exactly that there is no support (upadhi), i.e. skandhas present. However, Yogacara works discuss the transformed skandhas only for buddhas (Mahayanasutralamkara 9.41-45; Mahayanasamgraha 10.5), but not mentioned for those of the two vehicles. Xuanzang also discusses the issue as https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=459641#p459641. Also, arhats without nirupadhisesa-nirvana can only fit into the system of ekayana, but not of the five gotras where sravakas and pratyekabuddhas reach a final and definite goal. As Vasubandhu notes in his commentary to the Lotus Sutra (Tiantai Lotus Texts, BDK ed, p 135): "It is not the case that those who have not originally produced the thought of enlightenment, such as ordinary people and the disciples who are fixed [in the Small Vehicle], are able to attain it."

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, since arhats have traces of ignorance, this is sufficient to maintain their continuums, albeit not as a birth in any of the three realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 11:30 AM
Title: Re: Existence
Content:
Rick said:
I’m confused (as usual). I thought dependent origination meant that nothing exists inherently?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, that is what it means. Everything arises based on causes and conditions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 8:53 AM
Title: Re: Existence
Content:
Rick said:
Per Buddhism, what does "to exist" mean? Can this be answered (satisfactorily) without reference to the two truths? If so, please do.

Malcolm wrote:
to be dependently originated...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Śravaka arhats take on a mental body due to their traces of ignorance, as Asanga explains clearly in the Mahāyānottaratantraśāstravyākhyā

Astus said:
Such a mental body is fine if it is not considered the final destination of an arhat, hence it is of the undetermined category who moves on to the bodhisattva path. After all, the Ratnagotravibhaga is about the buddha-gotra. So unless you say that Yogacara does not posit the doctrine of different gotras, arhats and pratyekabuddhas must attain true nirupadhisesa-nirvana.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that the pure aggregates do not cease contra your assertion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Queequeg said:
Bill Maher says similar all the time. Libs have no sense of humor.

Malcolm wrote:
Bill Maher should talk...talk about no sense of humor...

Grigoris said:
I actually like his sense of humor...

Malcolm wrote:
His jokes are ok, if a bit rough, but he a pretty humorless guy, actually...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 6th, 2018 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So, therefore your idea that Yogacara advocates a total cessation for arhat is completely unfounded based on the reasoning you gave, i.e., that there is no continuation upon the cessation of the ālaya.

Astus said:
Why would that be? Just because the alayavijnana ceases for both arhats and buddhas, it does not mean that their attainment is the same. For buddhas there are the causes accumulated over the bodhisattva path to generate the buddha-bodies. But the causes are absent for arhats, hence there is no cause for the emergence of anything.

"Samanantarapratyaya, a condition qua antecedent, means that the eight actual consciousnesses (darsana and samvittibhaga) and their Caittas (to the exclusion of Rupa, the Viprayuktas, the Bijas, and the Asamakrtas) constitute a preceding group which passes away to give place to a subsequent group of the same species, opening the way to that group and acting in such a way that it immediately comes into being. ...
At the moment of entry into Nirupadhisesanirvana (Final-Nirvana-without-residue, i.e., Nirvana without vestiges of reincarnation), the mind is extremely weak and, in consequence, has not 'the strength to open the way and lead'. Further, it does not produce a subsequent dharma of a similar nature. Hence it is not Samanantarapratyaya.
How do you explain this?
It has been truly said in the Yogasastra that 'if, immediately after the former consciousness-associates, the latter consciousness-associates are born, then the former are the Samanantarapratyaya of the latter.' (Yogasastra, 3 and 51, and Vikhyapana, 18)."
(Cheng Weishi Lun, 4.1.2, p 537-539)

Malcolm wrote:
Again, this is not the case. Śravaka arhats take on a mental body due to their traces of ignorance, as Asanga explains clearly in the Mahāyānottaratantraśāstravyākhyā


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The ālaya contains the seeds of affliction, so of course during liberation it reverts in everyone, thus even the Tathāgata is an arhat.

Astus said:
According to the Cheng Weishi Lun, arhat there refers to arhats, pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas equally.

Malcolm wrote:
So, therefore your idea that Yogacara advocates a total cessation for arhat is completely unfounded based on the reasoning you gave, i.e., that there is no continuation upon the cessation of the ālaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
Yeah. But better.

Malcolm wrote:
According to the commentaries on Dzogchen, Dzogchen and secret mantra in general, falls in the Adhidharma pitika.

Crazywisdom said:
I recall you mentioning this previously. Which is why I was surprised by KN’s. I guess that’s Longchenpa. So. Guhyagarbha is the general Dzogchen tantra. Says it’s mantra basket. Dzogchen tantras say Abhidharma. So for me this point is cancelled. It’s not important. What is important is tantra is about practicing with channels. However that’s done, with mandalas of deities, bijas or whatever the result of Buddhahood is revealed this way. It’s like the eyes. They see 360, they see wisdom, they hear, they smell, they eat, they are light, they are mandalas of deities.

Malcolm wrote:
These sorts of categorizations are not of the essence.

Topics like these are not really for the internet. People really get the wrong idea and think they can do Shitro without empowerments, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: Yuthok nyingthik ( your views? )
Content:



MatthewAngby said:
I’ll love to know about you guys’ opinion.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a cycle principally for doctors of Tibetan Medicine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Mantrayana is almost beyond Mahayana due to this bardo of Hinayana in the abhidharma. We are going to favor the 3rd Turning sutras, demote abhidharma and go with the meanings in mandalas

Malcolm wrote:
A hem, examine the purities of any sadhana, and all you will find is Abhidharma.

Crazywisdom said:
Yeah. But better.

Malcolm wrote:
According to the commentaries on Dzogchen, Dzogchen and secret mantra in general, falls in the Adhidharma pitika.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Who is America ?
Content:


Queequeg said:
Bill Maher says similar all the time. Libs have no sense of humor.

Malcolm wrote:
Bill Maher should talk...talk about no sense of humor...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 9:14 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Mantrayana is almost beyond Mahayana due to this bardo of Hinayana in the abhidharma. We are going to favor the 3rd Turning sutras, demote abhidharma and go with the meanings in mandalas

Malcolm wrote:
A hem, examine the purities of any sadhana, and all you will find is Abhidharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, Yogācāra does not teach that the aggregates utterly cease.

Astus said:
It would not be remainderless nirvana if aggregates remained. The alayavijnana ceases for arhats, as Vasubandhu says in the 5th stanza of the Trimsika.

Malcolm wrote:
The passage here does not mean what you have taken it to mean.

The ālaya contains the seeds of affliction, so of course during liberation it reverts in everyone, thus even the Tathāgata is an arhat.

Vinitadeva writes in the Triṃśikāṭīkā, commenting on this verse, that the person in whom the ālayavijñana reverts is nominally called an arhat because the reversion of the ālaya is a term for being free from the basis which is endowed with the seeds of affliction. He continues, at this time of the reversion of the ālaya, the one who obtains the vimuktikāya, the body of liberation, or the dharmakāya, is termed an "arhat."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 7:30 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is a Mahāyāna forum. Pure aggregates continue in buddhahood. See Mahāyānasamgraha. In Mahāyāna, there is also so-called nonabiding nirvana.

Astus said:
The issue is related to the Theravadin view of nirvana, where all conditioned dharmas must cease at the end, as they are the products of ignorance.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is also wrong. What about rocks, are they products ignorance in the Theravada view? No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, Yogācāra does not teach that the aggregates utterly cease. Madhyamaka rejects the doctrine of fixed gotras.
In Mahāyāna, it is certainly the case, for example, the Lanka Sutra.

Astus said:
Only those of the undetermined lineage change to the bodhisattva path.

"[The Buddha] has taught a single vehicle to lead word-hearers of undetermined [lineage], other bodhisattvas [of undetermined lineage], and [bodhisattvas] of determined lineage into the Great Vehicle."
(Mahayanasamgraha 10.32, BDK ed, p 115-116)

Here is Xuanzang's explanation on the state of nirupadhisesa-nirvana (Cheng Weishi Lun, book 9, chapter 4, part 5, section 1.2.2, p 761-763, tr Wei Tat):

"The Sravakas and the Pratyekabuddhas, you say, are in possession of the Nirupadhisesa. Is there not a Sutra which teaches that they are not in possession of Nirupadhisesa? If they are in possession, why is it said that they are not?
But the same Sutra [the Srimala Sutra] teaches that they do not in any way possess Nirvana. Is one going to maintain that Sopadhisesa is also lacking in them?
In fact, as long as their 'body and intelligence' (i.e., their body and their mind) remain, the Sravakas and other saints of the two Vehicles - that is to say, the niyatagotras (saints of indeterminate nature) - have Jneyavarana. The duhkhopadhi (that is to say, 'that which serves as support for suffering') not having been exhausted, the principle of Parinirvana remains latent. It may therefore be said that they are not possessed of Nirvana.
This does not mean that they are really devoid of Sopadhisesa Nirvana, that is to say, the 'Reality' or Tathata revealed by the exhaustion of Klesavarana.
But, since they have not yet realized the complete Parinirvana, one says that they have not the Nirupadhisesa: this does not mean that, later, when their body and intelligence have been destroyed, they will not suffer the exhaustion of duhkhopadhi and the resultant Nirupadhisesa Nirvana.
In other words, if the Srimalasutra teaches that the saints of the two Vehicles are not possessed of Nirvana, one should understand that this refers to the fourth Nirvana, i.e., the Apratisthitanirvana, in which the Bodhisattva does not stay or reside, not the first three.
Furthermore, this declaration that the saints of the two Vehicles have not the Nirupadhisesa refers only to the aniyatagotras (saints of indeterminate nature) : these Arhats, at the very moment of their attainment of Sopadhisesa Nirvana, determine to turn their mind towards the supreme Bodhi. By the power of their pure meditation and contemplation and of their pious vows and resolutions, which proceed from compassion, they 'conserve' their bodies and continue their residence for long periods of time in Samsara instead of entering into the Nirupadhisesa as do the niyatagrota saints of the two Vehicles.
The latter, i.e., the niyatagrota saints whose mind is fixed on arhatship, and not on Buddhahood, have a great predilection for Parinirvana. They obtain the contemplation of pudgalasunyata, thus realizing immediately the Bhutatathata which results from this sunyata; they completely destroy the Klesavarana, the cause of rebirth, thereby attaining the Sopadhisesa Nirvana which is revealed on the basis of 'Reality'. The klesas which produce rebirth for these saints having been exhausted, there is no reason for a new existence to be produced, especially when the actual duhkhopadhi (the physical body) comes to perish spontaneously. The other samskrtadharmas (active, functioning dharmas), since they no longer serve as a supporting basis (upadhi), are abandoned at the same time as the duhkhopadhi. As a result of this, the Nirupadhisesa Nirvana which supports itself on Reality will be manifested. Although at this moment (when the duhkhopadhi has come to an end) the body and intelligence of the two Vehicles no longer exist, nevertheless, as these saints have previously effected the destruction of this duhkhopadhi, one can attribute Nirupadhisesa to them.
At this moment, [in view of the complete disappearance of all cittanimitta,] there remains only the pure Tathata (the first of the ten Tathatas set out at the beginning of this section), exempt from the ten nimittas, placid, tranquil, non active, beatified.
From the point of view of Tathata, it is said that the saints of the two Vehicles are not different from the Buddhas; but since they are not possessed of Bodhi and those activities that are directed to the salvation of others, it is said that they are different from the Buddhas."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Correction, there is no coming about of the upādāna-skandhas.

Astus said:
Further extension then, that there is the saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu and the anupadisesa-nibbanadhatu, as per the https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland and others. The aggregates without clinging remain only until parinirvana.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a Mahāyāna forum. Pure aggregates continue in buddhahood. See Mahāyānasamgraha. In Mahāyāna, there is also so-called nonabiding nirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 5:58 AM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This the extreme of cessation. Not acceptable in Mahāyāna as CW points out.

Astus said:
It is not acceptable for a bodhisattva to go for total cessation, but it was not an agreed concept that the sravaka nirvana is only a temporary samadhi, as it is apparent in the five-gotra teaching of Yogacara.

Malcolm wrote:
In Mahāyāna, it is certainly the case, for example, the Lanka Sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, August 5th, 2018 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
Unless they just don't do that. People hold all sorts of nonsense views. People nowadays think we're reflections of an 11-dimension crystal. No one exists. We're all just this crystal in motion.

Malcolm wrote:
They all do that, including you. But you have not really thought carefully about the ramifications of the statement -- i.e. there is no such thing as a nonexistent.

Coëmgenu said:
I've actually thought about this for a very long time. I have to say I disagree. Nonexistence is a nonextant, but it is extant as a theoretical suggestion posited by the human mind. And it need not be a transformation. The human mind can easily imagine nihilism.

Furthermore, believe in fundamental nihilism does not require the destruction of something that "once was".

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know you mean by "fundamental nihilism."

The human mind cannot imagine nothing without something. They are relative concepts that cannot function in isolation. Absence cannot be conceived without presence, short cannot be conceived with long, etc.


A given thing cannot become nonthing in a real sense, just as the destruction of a pot does not entail the shattering of all of the atoms of which it is composed. We say the pot no longer exists, but we certainly cannot say that the material composing it is also destroyed. This is the kind of "nonexistence" (abhāva) being referred to consistently in Madhyamaka texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Matt J said:
I found this interesting article between B. Allan Wallace and Bhikkhu Bodhi about what happens to an arhat after death. I thought it did an excellent job of answering for me whether or not Theravada Buddhism is annihiliationist. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, some say yes and some say no. I also noticed other topics that often arise here.

Some highlights include:

- a professed similarity between Buddhist and Advaita concepts

- a split in Theravada Buddhism between annihilationists and others

- how the suttas on the luminous mind don't point to a substantial self of any sort

- the difference between Dzogchen and Theravada concepts of what happens when one dies post-nibbana

https://www.sbinstitute.com/sites/default/files/What%20Happens%20to%20an%20Arahant%20at%20Death_BB-BAW_BB-Revised.pdf

Malcolm wrote:
This whole interview is a fail. BAW is quizzing BB using Dzogchen terms and concepts the former has never been introduced to.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Does Consciousness Continue After Cessation?
Content:
Matt J said:
what happens to an arhat after death

Astus said:
No ignorance, no consciousness, no birth.

Malcolm wrote:
This the extreme of cessation. Not acceptable in Mahāyāna as CW points out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Astus said:
So if it is accepted that the five aggregates come about because of ignorance, when ignorance ceases there is no cause for the becoming of aggregates, and without the aggregates there is no being to talk of in any sense.

Malcolm wrote:
Correction, there is no coming about of the upādāna-skandhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
No. Nonononono.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, yes, yes yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Why?

If an existent is not established,
a nonexistent will not be established.
The transformation of an existent into another
is what people term a "nonexistent."

-- MMK

Coëmgenu said:
Unless they just don't do that. People hold all sorts of nonsense views. People nowadays think we're reflections of an 11-dimension crystal. No one exists. We're all just this crystal in motion.

Malcolm wrote:
They all do that, including you. But you have not really thought carefully about the ramifications of the statement -- i.e. there is no such thing as a nonexistent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 7:08 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Milarepa said to Marpa, “I have created heavy negative karma, so I have now come to practice Dharma. I have nothing to offer you but my body, speech and mind. Please give me the Dharma and also food and clothing.” Milarepa asked for food and clothing because he didn’t have anything at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and Marpa taught Milarepa nothing for years...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 7:05 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money.

Nemo said:
So that is what Dharma teachings are worth? Is that their exact monetary value?

Malcolm wrote:
It is an example. Rwa Lotsawa had a menu on his door, this much for the wang, this much for the sadhana, this much for the instruction, and so on. But on the other hand, no one says you have to pay the initiation fee for this or that teaching demanded this by or that guru. You are free to pass up any teachings you don't feel inclined to pay for.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Nemo said:
Old days teachers gave too much. Now many in the new generation treat it like a business. Some can't wait to get upstairs and count the money.

Did the Buddha charge for teachings? Probably not considering he forbade monks from touching money. Capitalism is a revolutionary force. Everything has a value in money and the thought that something can't have a price put on it is scandalous. The solution is of course to squeeze money out of people to be taught something no one owns that is the birthright of every sentient being. How will we charge the birds that hear the tinkling bells on the stupa? They are stealing the blessing for free!

Malcolm wrote:
How we forget:

"Then Vairocana and Legdrup offered Shri Singha a two pints of gold dust and a finger sized golden ingot and made a request, “The king of Tibet has comprehended the Dharma of cause and result. Since he has send us to seek the Dharma that transcends cause and result, please grant our request for the Dharma beyond cause and effect.”

Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money. Guess those Indian masters were really scandalous...and they had not even received any teachings...

Queequeg said:
I don't think you guys are talking about the same "old days."

Malcolm wrote:
I think here we are talking about Vajrayāna teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Nemo said:
Old days teachers gave too much. Now many in the new generation treat it like a business. Some can't wait to get upstairs and count the money.

Did the Buddha charge for teachings? Probably not considering he forbade monks from touching money. Capitalism is a revolutionary force. Everything has a value in money and the thought that something can't have a price put on it is scandalous. The solution is of course to squeeze money out of people to be taught something no one owns that is the birthright of every sentient being. How will we charge the birds that hear the tinkling bells on the stupa? They are stealing the blessing for free!

Malcolm wrote:
How we forget:

"Then Vairocana and Legdrup offered Shri Singha a two pints of gold dust and a finger sized golden ingot and made a request, “The king of Tibet has comprehended the Dharma of cause and result. Since he has send us to seek the Dharma that transcends cause and result, please grant our request for the Dharma beyond cause and effect.”

Lets see, two pints of gold dust costs approximately $40,000 in todays money. Guess those Indian masters were really scandalous...and they had not even received any teachings...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:



Quay said:
Good point. And as more than one Vajrayana Lama has said, "Vajrayana is not a democracy." There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key and there are those others. To each their own desire.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna is also not socialist.

Quay said:
I would agree that no -ists or -isms apply.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, the social and political model of Vajrayāna is the family. Guru and consort are the parents, disciples are the children. One cannot belong to some family simply because one demands admittance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:


Rick said:
Nor can non-existence be established.



?

Malcolm wrote:
Nonexistence is a form of existence.

Coëmgenu said:
No. Nonononono.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, yes, yes yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Why?

If an existent is not established,
a nonexistent will not be established.
The transformation of an existent into another
is what people term a "nonexistent."

-- MMK


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
This Asian debate is pastimes for bored monks.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, August 4th, 2018 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Via Negativa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No form of existence can be ultimately established.

Rick said:
Nor can non-existence be established.

Nagarjuna said:
Through his knowledge of entities and nonentities,
In the instruction for Katyayana,
The Victor has refuted
Both [their] existence and nonexistence.

Rick said:
?

Malcolm wrote:
Nonexistence is a form of existence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
I think that many people here never experienced real poverty.

To be very clear, I wasn't turned out from the teachings by the teacher in questions, but by an organizer, who is sufficiently well off himself. I didn't even have the option of approaching the teacher directly.

Malcolm wrote:
That is called an obstacle. Your karma.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Another important point, I'm willing to pay the whole money, I don't have the actual value just now. I'm willing to offer what I have now, my labor capacity and any skill, plus the actual monetary value as soon as I get it! I'm in no way willing to go on "bargaining" Dharma teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently, they did not require your services. Would you have been willing to offer them even if no Dharma teachings were forthcoming from your efforts? If so, you should go back, and offer your services to this Dharma center, with no expectations other then merit gained.


Nyedrag Yeshe said:
I also seem that some people here never experienced poverty, in a poor country (in a poorer region within it), where you don't have your own money, and the few you have in our pocket is used for buying your medicine and food for daily survival.

Malcolm wrote:
There are any number of Dharma teachings which I would have liked to attend, but did not for lack of money and merit to go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 10:48 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
My point is that no one has any cause to complain.

Quay said:
Good point. And as more than one Vajrayana Lama has said, "Vajrayana is not a democracy." There are Dharma paths where the consensus of the group is key and there are those others. To each their own desire.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna is also not socialist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 10:45 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
Yes, the social situation was entirely different,  What's your point?

I'm not arguing that individuals should not be willing to sacrifice material wealth to encounter Vajrayana, i'm simply stating that there is an institutional and cultural setup, including commodification and bureaucracy, that has very little to do with the traditional stories regarding giving large sums of gold to one's Guru.

Malcolm wrote:
My point is that no one has any cause to complain.

Johnny Dangerous said:
You think all financial setups in Vajrayana in terms of paying for teachings are simply beyond reproach?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Why doesn't this logic also apply to abusive Gurus?

Malcolm wrote:
One consents to pay for this or that teaching, or not -- it is up to you.  By definition, no one consents to abuse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
With the traditional stories, few of the masters in question seem to have had huge organizations or infrastructure that would have factored into the decision of costs, etc. as they do today.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and they charged far more money for Vajrayāna teachings in those days, compared to now.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Yes, the social situation was entirely different,  What's your point?

I'm not arguing that individuals should not be willing to sacrifice material wealth to encounter Vajrayana, i'm simply stating that there is an institutional and cultural setup, including commodification and bureaucracy, that has very little to do with the traditional stories regarding giving large sums of gold to one's Guru.

Malcolm wrote:
My point is that no one has any cause to complain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Sherab Rigdrol said:
ChNN’s recent retreat policy change is pretty amazing. Retreats are free and the one’s who organize (and who can afford it) foot the bill. Then each student pays what they can. That’s the why it should be in the west at least.

Malcolm wrote:
This is something that should be up to each and every guru's individual discretion, including making some people pay and allowing some people to attend for free, even for the same teaching.

Sherab Rigdrol said:
I agree 100% that it should be up to the teacher, but you and I both know that sometimes, especially in larger organizations, that crusty, rich old white people use cost setting as a way to keep new students away from their dear Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
Just another obstacle to overcome, and if you really, really, really want that teaching from that guru, you will overcome it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
With the traditional stories, few of the masters in question seem to have had huge organizations or infrastructure that would have factored into the decision of costs, etc. as they do today.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and they charged far more money for Vajrayāna teachings in those days, compared to now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Sherab Rigdrol said:
ChNN’s recent retreat policy change is pretty amazing. Retreats are free and the one’s who organize (and who can afford it) foot the bill. Then each student pays what they can. That’s the way it should be in the west at least.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Yep, ChNN (as with many things) is deeply generous, and IMO the DC way of allowing people access to the teachings while having a second tier that delivers extra benefits for paying for membership is actually a great model.

Malcolm wrote:
It was not always this way, per ChNN's specific instructions. Once the community became more wealthy in general, then he changed his policies. But it used to the case, no cash, no admission. Ask Oldbob.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Lets phrase this a different way:

Do teachers have any obligation to make teachings affordable, or is charging large amounts ok because it keeps out people who don't "want it bad enough'?

Malcolm wrote:
Gurus have no obligation to make teachings available, let alone affordable. This is just not how Vajrayāna works.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I get what you are saying but..

The idea that the cost of teachings is just about a Gurus  will or prerogative alone strikes me as kind of questionable, the cost of teachings often has lots of do with larger administrative questions, especially in large organizations.

Malcolm wrote:
A bit of the study of history is in order here. When translators went to India, they took large amounts of gold with them, took incredible risks to bring the teachings back to Tibet, and so on. The thirteen Golden Dharmas of Sakya are called "Golden" because at one time they cost money in gold, not because they are very nice.

Frankly, these days, students complaining about spending some money for their path of ultimate liberation just sounds like disgruntled bitching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
So if a sick and poor person or someone who has limited time left to their life wants to attend a ceremony or teaching....

Malcolm wrote:
That is up the discretion of the guru in question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Lets phrase this a different way:

Do teachers have any obligation to make teachings affordable, or is charging large amounts ok because it keeps out people who don't "want it bad enough'?

Malcolm wrote:
Gurus have no obligation to make teachings available, let alone affordable. This is just not how Vajrayāna works.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 3rd, 2018 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Sherab Rigdrol said:
ChNN’s recent retreat policy change is pretty amazing. Retreats are free and the one’s who organize (and who can afford it) foot the bill. Then each student pays what they can. That’s the why it should be in the west at least.

Malcolm wrote:
This is something that should be up to each and every guru's individual discretion, including making some people pay and allowing some people to attend for free, even for the same teaching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Six Munis
Content:
Seeker12 said:
There's often little to no response for such obscure questions, but I'm wondering if anyone by chance knows of any scriptural references for the "Six Munis" ( http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Six_Munis ), listed on that site as,

1. Indra Kaushika (Skt.; Tib. དབང་པོ་བརྒྱ་བྱིན་, Wangpo Gyajin; Tib. ལྷའི་དབང་པོ་བརྒྱ་བྱིན་, Wyl. dbang po brgya byin) for the god realms
2. Vemachitra (Skt. Vemacitra; Tib. ཐགས་བཟང་རིས་, Taksangri; Tib. ཐག་བཟང་རིས་, Wyl. thags bzang ris) for the demi-gods or asura realms
3. Shakyamuni (Tib. ཤཱཀྱ་ཐབ་པ་, Wyl. shAkya thub pa) for the human realm
4. Shravasingha or Dhruvasiṃha (Skt.; Tib. སེང་གེ་རབ་བརྟན་, Sengé Rabten; Wyl. seng ge rab brtan) for the animal realm
5. Jvālamukhadeva (Skt.; Tib. ཁ་འབར་དེ་བ་, Khabar Dewa; Wyl. kha ‘bar de ba) for the preta realms
6. Dharmarāja (Skt.; Tib. ཆོས་ཀྱི་རྒྱལ་པོ་, Chökyi Gyalpo; Wyl. chos kyi rgyal po) for the hell realms

Thanks.


Malcolm wrote:
It is from the peaceful and wrathful mandala cycle of Guhyagarbha Tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 8:41 PM
Title: Re: Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Cool deal. Thanks. Are you familiar with this lama?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, contact Michael.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Feel like an interchangeable cog
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Yeah I don't want to work for a charity. I want to work for a green startup or other kind of tech company working on problems that can really help the world.

Malcolm wrote:
Dream on -- all our problems come from thinking technology can save us. All technology does is solve one problem only to replace it with another.

Attain realization, that will really solve many people's problems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 8:20 PM
Title: Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted. The 17 tantras themselves and related material are also termas, though considered part of kama, revealed during the two decades prior to Atisha's death, somewhere in the early 1040's.

treehuggingoctopus said:
If I understand you correctly, it means that prior to Atisha's death there were no Dzogchen tantras (in this world) at all?

Malcolm wrote:
You did not understand correctly. The 18 Sem sde lungs are present in Tibet from the late 8th and early 9th century. The Kun byed rgyal po is probably not a translation, but a compilation and expansion of the five sems sde lungs. The rmad du 'byung ba tantra is similar, but ancient. There are many other Dzgchen tantras that were written down in the 9th and 10th century, but dating them is difficult.

Then there is the Brahmin cycle, revealed as terma during the late tenth, early eleventh.

Atisha seems to have passed around 1055. The 17 tantras were revealed 15 or 20 years before this date. According to tradition, the seventeen tantras were concealed in a temple about 30k north of Lhasa by Nyangban Tingzin Zangpo. The oral lineage was passed on separately from the texts. These were reunited when Dangma Lhungyal removed the 17 tantras from their place of concealment. He then passed the texts onto Chetsun Senge Wangchuk around 1065. Senge Wangchuk in turn transmitted them to Chegom Nagpo. Chegom Nagpo transmitted them to Zhangton Tashi Dorje in roughly 1108. Zhangton revealed the Vima Nyinthik when he was 21, in roughly 1118.

According to the Nyingthig history, Atisha attained his realization through practicing Dzogchen, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
My red flag came from watching his videos where he says to the effect, only Jonang has the full Kalachakra teachings, others only have pieces.

Malcolm wrote:
This is true. As a lineage, only they have preserved the entire creation and completion stage teachings as an integral whole. The Gelugpas preserve Kalacakra more as a state ritual. If one is seriously interested in Kalacakra, one must study the Jonang lineage of Kalacakra. Of course, that exists outside Jonang, HH Chogye Trichen, the late head of the Tsarpa subschool of Sakya, was expert in this lineage, as was Kalu Rinpoche. The Jonang lineage of Kalacakra spread from Jonang to Nyingma in the 18th century, then to Kagyu and then from Kongtrul, into all schools. However, outside of Jonang, there is little practice of the complete system. So your best bet to study this system in its entirety is to find a Jonang master.

The person to ask about this Lama's qualifications is Michael Sheehy. You can contact him here: http://michaelrsheehy.com/contact/

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
My red flag came from watching his videos where he says to the effect, only Jonang has the full Kalachakra teachings, others only have pieces.

Malcolm wrote:
This is true. As a lineage, only they have preserved the entire creation and completion stage teachings as an integral whole. The Gelugpas preserve Kalacakra more as a state ritual. If one is seriously interested in Kalacakra, one must study the Jonang lineage of Kalacakra. Of course, that exists outside Jonang, HH Chogye Trichen, the late head of the Tsarpa subschool of Sakya, was expert in this lineage, as was Kalu Rinpoche. The Jonang lineage of Kalacakra spread from Jonang to Nyingma in the 18th century, then to Kagyu and then from Kongtrul, into all schools. However, outside of Jonang, there is little practice of the complete system. So your best bet to study this system in its entirety is to find a Jonang master.

The person to ask about this Lama's qualifications is Michael Sheehy.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 8:51 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is the custom of secret mantra, described in the tantras themselves, that a fee is charged for initiation. End of story. If a teacher is willing to grant empowerment and instructions free of charge, one should feel blessed, and make offerings of whatever wealth one has for the teachings. This is how the dignity of secret mantra is upheld.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Isn't also a downfall to refuse teachings for sincere seekers? A downfall that would fit maybe the two levels of teaching, secret mantra and sutra?

Malcolm wrote:
In the case of secret mantra, no, it is not a downfall to insist on certain things from students. Sometimes, if you want a teaching badly enough, you will overcome any obstacle to receive the teaching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 6:59 AM
Title: Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Ah, so that is why Dzogchen terma cycles feature practices belonging to all the three inner yanas (and are said to necessarily involve a tantric ngondro)! Thank you, Malcolm, most useful!

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but also the Dzogpa Rangjung Tantra, often referred to as the empowerment tantra, is largely concerned with practices connected to Hayagriva, repelling obstacles from Nagas and so, guiding practitioners through the Bardo, etc. It is considered to be the tantra of useful methods.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Relationship between Dzogchen tantras and Nyingthiks
Content:
mandog said:
What is the relationship between the 17 Dzogchen tantras and the Khandro/Vima Nyingthik? Are the latter two technically commentaries on some of the former 17? Is there actually still a tradition of giving lung/tri for the 17 tantras, or at this point, is the transmission of these texts largely inactive?

Malcolm wrote:
Magnus's answer is correct, but there is a bit more detail to add.

The Vima Nyinthig is a commentary on the material belonging to the 17 tantras, being a portion of the 119 intimate instructions, most of which are presently lost. The Vima Nyinthik is commonly considered "Kama," although it in fact is a terma revealed by Zhangton Tashi Dorje in the early 12th century.

The Khandro Nyinthig is considered part of Terma, revealed in the early 14th century, and is a commentary and practice cycle upon a tantra called the Longsal Barma Nyima Gyud, which organizes the material in the 17 tantras into a progressive path, which includes general preliminaries such as Vajrasattva, practices related to Anuyoga, as well as Dzogchen specific practices.

The Lung for the 17 tantras (as well as the Vima and Khandro Nyinthigs) still exists and is still transmitted. The 17 tantras themselves and related material are also termas, though considered part of kama, revealed during the two decades prior to Atisha's death, somewhere in the early 1040's.

These teachings are the most important teachings of the Nyingma School.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 2nd, 2018 at 2:15 AM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is the custom of secret mantra, described in the tantras themselves, that a fee is charged for initiation. End of story. If a teacher is willing to grant empowerment and instructions free of charge, one should feel blessed, and make offerings of whatever wealth one has for the teachings. This is how the dignity of secret mantra is upheld.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 1st, 2018 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Charging for Dharma
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Has anyone here also experienced being turned down from receiving teachings because of lack of funds? I was recently barred from receiving teachings on Phowa (don't wish to disclose which specific teacher or lineage, but it's a Nyingma Lama), because of my lack of a proper budget. I do understand that teachers ought to receive our help in order to keep teaching, etc. But, does Dharma needs a tag price in order to make itself available to all who have the connections and wish to practice? What're your experiences, opinions? Thank you all!

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently you did not have a connection...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 1st, 2018 at 6:59 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Empty Desire said:
But then at the same time, I'm sure we would all like to provide a benefit to others.

Malcolm wrote:
that is why we send folks to teachers we believe to be qualified to give these teachings, rather then parceling out the information to people ourselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 1st, 2018 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:
Rinchen Samphel said:
In my eyes, it is almost impossible to keep the details of Vajrayana secret without keeping the totality of Vajrayana secret.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 1st, 2018 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Importance of Secrecy in Secret Mantra
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
If you really believe as you say, then why is it an unwritten policy here to shut down conversations about such topics as thögal? Be consistent.


Johnny Dangerous said:
I didn't say we had no policy on it. I'm perfectly happy not supporting people in breaking samaya, and I think that is certainly necessary for the forum.  I think it's more about trying to adhere to the spirit than the letter of the law though, in practical moderation terms.

The point I am addressing is students sharing restricted material about Vajrayāna practices on this forum.

When I say the internet is not a proper forum for disseminating this material, I mean it is not a proper place for students with samaya to share information with those who lack samaya.
That's fair, but again there are lots of places where it becomes quite murky in practice how to actually do this, especially on a forum where the whole point is Dharma discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, you are missing the point -- the issue is people with samaya (students not teachers) publicly sharing material on this forum with those who do not have samaya. Not only does it harm those with samaya, it harms those without samaya. This has nothing to do with Garchen Rinpoche, for example, making available to his students teachings on a website the general public could access if they wanted to, or Shang Shung illustrating their books with deity images on their covers, which might be seen by some ordinary person who stumbles on their site. I am not discussing anything about that at all. That is something removed from this issue here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 1st, 2018 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Content:
weitsicht said:
The sangha to be taken refuge in has a different meaning from the sangha that groups together for teachings, Puja etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna refuge sangha is only ārya bodhisattvas.


