﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
His opinions are worse that useless. He is desperately seeking relevance, and sooner or later, Ecuador will tire of him...

Queequeg said:
Assuming that your opinions are objective fact, does that substantially affect the import of the documents he releases?

Malcolm wrote:
You know, the Podesta emails just show a campaign in full swing, with the standard amount of partisan assholishness. There is nothing mind-blowing or significant in them. Is the DNC corrupt? Yes, but we already knew this. So while it is certainly interesting and entertaining to see what a stunning jerk Podesta et al are, the emails are really of no significance whatsoever, and Assange's involvement in releasing them does not make them more significant, though in his little fever driven brain, it must seem so to him.

The FBIs' conduct however is truly egregious and that Comey guy should be up on charges.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
there are also a range of specific empowerments with specific samaya,

Malcolm wrote:
Every empowerment has specific samayas connected with specific empowerments, for example, the reason why Padmasambhava carries a skull cup and a vajra is that these articles are samaya commitments for Śrī Heruka, his main yidam.

Cakrasamvara and Yoginī practitioners are never supposed to be separate from the bone implements and so on, and so often they carry around a little card with representations of these items.

Thus, that mantrins, whether lay or ordained, have articles of samaya they are supposed to carry about with them is not an exception, it is instead the rule.

Sherab Dorje said:
Yes, I know.  But not all empowerments have the same specific samaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that was the point of my posting the above, "Every empowerment has specific samayas connected with specific empowerments [within that empowerment."

Thus it is not surprising in the least that that there are specific empowerments in Pema Lingpa's tradition concerned with this or that article, just as there is a hair empowerment in Dudjom Troma, etc. We all want our traditions to be special, but in reality they are just variations on a general theme.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
there are also a range of specific empowerments with specific samaya,

Malcolm wrote:
Every empowerment has specific samayas connected with specific empowerments, for example, the reason why Padmasambhava carries a skull cup and a vajra is that these articles are samaya commitments for Śrī Heruka, his main yidam.

Cakrasamvara and Yoginī practitioners are never supposed to be separate from the bone implements and so on, and so often they carry around a little card with representations of these items.

Thus, that mantrins, whether lay or ordained, have articles of samaya they are supposed to carry about with them is not an exception, it is instead the rule.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Fa Dao said:
interview clip with Assange...

Malcolm wrote:
Assange is an asshole. He is still facing rape charges in Sweden.

Queequeg said:
And so... what?

Malcolm wrote:
His opinions are worse that useless. He is desperately seeking relevance, and sooner or later, Ecuador will tire of him...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Fa Dao said:
interview clip with Assange...
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]

Malcolm wrote:
Assange is an asshole. He is still facing rape charges in Sweden.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: How effective are liberation-upon-seeing dharma doors?
Content:


Virgo said:
Malcolm, may I ask who told you this and if you still feel this way?  Thanks.

Kevin

Malcolm wrote:
Kunzang Dechen Lingpa told me this, and I still take this seriously.

DGA said:
This is useful.

the word "amulet" can refer to a few different things.  are these examples or do you mean something else?

http://www.mahasiddha.org/store/Amulets.html


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, some of these are "liberation through wearing."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
DGA said:
That's good stuff, Malcolm.  Thank you.

I am among those who had understood that the term "ngakpa" corresponds to some kind of ordination system designating persons with some know-how in Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
The origin of the custom of wearing white lower robes goes back to the fact that in ancient India, pious Buddhist lay people often wore all white cloths, indicating their status as upāsakas and upāsikās.

In Tibet, however, the garb of the so called "mantrins" became invested with much ritual significance, much of it coming from the tradition of Chō. And since there are so many traditions, it is not surprising that there have come to be much variance with respect the uniform of an upāsaka mantrin in Tibet. Exhibit A)




You can see here there is that most of these Repkong ngakpas wear an assortment of outfits. They are mainly recognizable through the distinctive coiled dreadlocks on their heads.

However, due to the important position of the Dudjom Tradition in the exile community and in West, the characteristic uniform of the mantrin students of Dudjom Rinpoche's followers has come to represent the standard uniform of upāsaka mantrins.

DGA said:
It occurs to me that if this is a misperception in regard to the situation in the Himalayas, it might open onto some useful possibilities in the West.  Suppose there's low demand for practitioners able to dispel hailstorms.  That's OK, because demand is high for "lay" teachers who are able to dispel ignorance.

(by "lay" I mean living more or less as householders do.)

Malcolm wrote:
Well, people do like to dress up in outfits:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
Hi friend

Yes, Buddha sees that all beings are enlightened. This is the truth from his point of view, from the point of view of a completely pure mind. Our impurity, suffering and problems are hallucinations created by ignorance; they are not true, so Buddha doesn't see this. These things exist only for us and they are mistaken appearances. Buddha knows that from our impure point of view, we are suffering because we are hallucinating. He's trying to wake us up, although being Dharmakaya and beyond conceptions, he doesn't have to think about helping us. He naturally manifests whatever is needed to help us in accordance with our karma in the same way that the sun radiates light and heat and doesn't have to consciously think about doing so.

Malcolm wrote:
The statement above suffers from an internal contradiction. If all beings are enlightened, they cannot have impurities, they also cannot experience impurities.

Tsongkhapafan said:
If you grasp at inherent existence, you're right. Beings appear as enlightened to pure minds and as suffering to impure minds, no contradiction. What something is depends upon how it is viewed.

Malcolm wrote:
This means that the Buddha's view of sentient beings as pure something relative, and not ultimate, in contradiction to your previous claim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
The Buddha does not see us as delusion, as suffering, as self-conception. He sees us as tathāgatagarbha. Obviously I am making assumptions here about what the user "Tsongkhapafan" meant, though. I apologize if I have misrepresented "Tsongkhapafan".

Obviously he also sees delusion, suffering, ignorance, etc, because otherwise he could not have ministered to us. He wouldn't have seen us as suffering at all if that were the case. I think that my explanation of the Buddha's ability to see "things-as-they-are" is what "Tsongkhapafan" meant though. The Buddha does not "see" ignorance/suffering/delusion in that he knows that "ignorance/suffering/delusion" is false. That being said, he can still recognize the falseness in order to rectify it.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Hi friend

Yes, Buddha sees that all beings are enlightened. This is the truth from his point of view, from the point of view of a completely pure mind. Our impurity, suffering and problems are hallucinations created by ignorance; they are not true, so Buddha doesn't see this. These things exist only for us and they are mistaken appearances. Buddha knows that from our impure point of view, we are suffering because we are hallucinating. He's trying to wake us up, although being Dharmakaya and beyond conceptions, he doesn't have to think about helping us. He naturally manifests whatever is needed to help us in accordance with our karma in the same way that the sun radiates light and heat and doesn't have to consciously think about doing so.

Malcolm wrote:
The statement above suffers from an internal contradiction. If all beings are enlightened, they cannot have impurities, they also cannot experience impurities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, November 5th, 2016 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Unknown said:
After Mitt Romney’s loss in 2012, moderate Republicans famously issued a detailed plan for the future that recommended extensive minority outreach. But the course the GOP actually chose in 2016 hewed a lot closer to a white paper Spencer wrote in 2011 about a “majority strategy” advanced by racist intellectuals. The strategy urged Republicans to forgo their fruitless minority outreach and instead unite a majority of white voters by focusing on immigration restriction. The GOP, Spencer wrote, needed to accept its role as the “white people’s party whether Republican leadership likes it or not.

Malcolm wrote:
http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/alt-right/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2016 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
Yes, they are ultimate truths for enlightened minds because the way they appear coincides with how they exist - as mere appearances.

Malcolm wrote:
How is this different from sentient beings and ordinary planets? By your logic, they too are ultimate truths since for an "enlightened mind" their appearance and mode of existence will also coincide as mere appearances.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Enlightened beings don't see impure worlds and beings because they are ordinary appearances and ordinary appearances are mistaken. They see all worlds and beings as completely pure, the union of appearance and emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, which is? Are the appearances false or are the minds apprehending them mistaken?

If the appearances are false, then they will continue to be false no matter what kind of mind apprehends them. If the minds that apprehends appearances is mistaken, the appearances will be same regardless of whether the mind that apprehends them is mistaken or veridical.

Appeals to authority are bogus if you do not provide a citation, BTW.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2016 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: The importance of direct experience
Content:
rachmiel said:
Thanks.

I'm not familiar with two-fold emptiness. Feel like explaining it ... or gotta link?

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness of persons and emptiness of phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2016 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: The importance of direct experience
Content:
conebeckham said:
My understanding is that liberation and Buddhahood are two different things, first of all.  I believe both are directly experienced, but I think liberation is a transformative event, but not a change of state.  I think it's more like knowledge gained after an experience, never to be lost.  However, Buddhahood, as perfect knowledge and omniscience, is unchanging, and a change of fundamental state. But I leave it to those more learned and experienced to correct my misunderstandings.

rachmiel said:
Anyone "more learned and experienced" have something to add/change to the above?

Malcolm wrote:
There are three things: realization, liberation, full awakening.

Having a realization is not equivalent to liberation. There are many realizations one must have before one enters the path of seeing. Once one has entered the path of seeing however, one begins the process of liberation that culminates on full awakening, buddhahood, at the end of the tenth bhumi. The fullest account of this, in Mahāyāna is found in the Abhisamaya-alaṃkara.

The process of liberation means gradually abandoning the afflictions which cause rebirth in samsara. Full awakening means omniscience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2016 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
DGA said:
Reviewing this thread, it seems to me that someone who does not have a clear idea regarding what a ngakpa or ngakmo actually is or does may find this tradition discouraging or even silly.  That sucks, because this is not a silly situation.

Be that as it may...

there are some sources online that describe the precepts ngakpas & ngakmos are given.  for example:

http://www.nyingma.com/artman/publish/ngakpa_root_commitments.shtml

are there any recommended texts that describe how these are applied in a practical sense in this context, in more detail?

Malcolm wrote:
DGA, everyone who has received the a major empowerment possesses these vows. They are not unique to the so called gos dkar cang lo de, the white skirted, long haired bunch.

Read Buddhist ethics by Kongtrul if you want a greater overview.

DGA said:
What specifically differentiates a ngakpa or ngakmo from a practitioner who has received empowerment and eschews haircuts at the level of practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing.

DGA said:
in social role?

Malcolm wrote:
They are specialists in apotropaic rituals for their communities.

DGA said:
That was my understanding (and thanks for the lead on the Kongtrul text.  I haven't made it through the Treasury of Knowledge.)  With that said, and at the risk of being blunt:  what's the big deal?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, for one, I think the "big deal" came about because early Western observers of the exile Tibetan community in the 1970's saw that there was a community of practitioners [like my guru Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa] surrounding Dudjom Rinpoche who dressed in a specific uniform consisting of a white skirt, a stripped Zen, their hair bound in a topknot [often around a metal cylinder containing tantras and tagdrols].

These westerners saw this as a alternate ordination path, based on the lore that in the first decades of the 9th century, King Ralpcan honored the tiny community of Tibetan lay Vajrayāna practitioners on the same level as the tiny community of monastics, and based on legend that when Langdarma "destroyed" the monastic community, Nub Sangye Yeshe intimidated him into leaving the community of practitioners of Secret Mantra alone (Nub Sangye Yeshe definitely lived in the latter part of the 9th century and the beginning of the tenth. Nevertheless, Nubchen is considered one of the 25 disciples of Padmasambhava. In order to explain the latter fact, it is held that he lived for possibly as long as 130 years. Not an impossible feat by any means).

It seems certain to me that Langdarma's "persecution" of the monasteries was in fact his demand for taxes from the monasteries which had previously operated free of taxation that when the Tibetan economy went into serious recession in the early 840's (due to trade disruption along the silk route due to the fall of the Uyghur empire in 840). It was this that led to his assassination by Lhalung Palgyi Dorje.

DGA said:
...what's at stake in this discussion, given that the communities in question here don't have a baked-in demand for averting-bad-fortune, bringing-good-fortune rituals?

Malcolm wrote:
On a purely social and economic level, as a culture Tibetans have proven themselves, since the '59 diaspora, remarkably effective in creating and cultivating clients, thus creating a demand for the services they provide. These services range from religious instruction to the kind of apotropaic rituals described above, and everything in between.

DGA said:
I attended a retreat a year or two ago at a large center in rural Colorado.  I volunteered for "karma yoga" duty, which put me in the kitchen washing dishes.  I did what I ordinarily do:  rolled up my sleeves, put an apron on, tied up my hair, and got to it.  No problem.  Someone else on KP duty at that time had evidently committed to the full ngakmo costume at all times, meaning that she struggled to scrub teacups one at a time while wearing a zentra and with her hair down.  Not too productive.  It was kind of sad.  One assumes that the role of a ngakpa/mo is not to make oneself useless, no?

Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of commitments one can undertake, but the idea that one is required, like monastics, to wear special "Ngakpa robes" at all times, is a complete misunderstanding. There are all kinds of Ngakpa styles, short haired, long haired, monastic, dread-locked, etc.

For many Tibetans, the term sngags pa really just means, "lay people with long hair who practice rituals, eat meat, drink booze, and chase girls." While among western Nyingmapas, Ngakpas are revered with near comical devotion, the situation among Tibetans is just not the same, just as Indians do not really think that sadhus are all that. Also, as you point out, there is no market for western Ngakpas, not really. Though there are some who go around and try to cultivate markets for their services, some more successful, some less, the fact is that the Ngakpa tradition as a whole serves a segment of the Tibetan population with rites that in some respect are not really proper for monks to engage in, such as divination, hail prevention, and so on. As you astutely point out, there is no baked in demand for Ngakpa services in the West. I just don't see Ngakpas replacing Evangelical Christian prayer circles for driving out demons and so on any time soon. Perhaps in Mexico on down to South America, the situation will be a little different.

Anyway, I keep my own Ngakpa gear tucked away nicely. Maybe some day I will see a reason to put it on, but frankly, I have not seen such a reason for some years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2016 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
DGA said:
Reviewing this thread, it seems to me that someone who does not have a clear idea regarding what a ngakpa or ngakmo actually is or does may find this tradition discouraging or even silly.  That sucks, because this is not a silly situation.

Be that as it may...

there are some sources online that describe the precepts ngakpas & ngakmos are given.  for example:

http://www.nyingma.com/artman/publish/ngakpa_root_commitments.shtml

are there any recommended texts that describe how these are applied in a practical sense in this context, in more detail?

Malcolm wrote:
DGA, everyone who has received the a major empowerment possesses these vows. They are not unique to the so called gos dkar cang lo de, the white skirted, long haired bunch.

Read Buddhist ethics by Kongtrul if you want a greater overview.

DGA said:
What specifically differentiates a ngakpa or ngakmo from a practitioner who has received empowerment and eschews haircuts at the level of practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing.

DGA said:
in social role?

Malcolm wrote:
Ngakpas are specialists in apotropaic rituals for their communities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2016 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
Mere appearances to a pure mind exist, such as the appearance of Deities and Pure Lands.

Not all appearances are caused by delusions.

Malcolm wrote:
So for you, deities and pure lands ultimately exist since they are objects of undeluded perceptions.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Yes, they are ultimate truths for enlightened minds because the way they appear coincides with how they exist - as mere appearances.

Malcolm wrote:
How is this different from sentient beings and ordinary planets? By your logic, they too are ultimate truths since for an "enlightened mind" their appearance and mode of existence will also coincide as mere appearances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, November 4th, 2016 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
conebeckham said:
Is there the appearance of shadows?

Malcolm wrote:
No more than there is an appearance of black lines in the sky observed by those with fevers, or yellow conches observed by those with jaundice.

Tsongkhapafan said:
Mere appearances to a pure mind exist, such as the appearance of Deities and Pure Lands.

Not all appearances are caused by delusions.

Malcolm wrote:
So for you, deities and pure lands ultimately exist since they are objects of undeluded perceptions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2016 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
White Lotus said:
kunga, you are synonymous with buddha. you have always seen 'this' experience of life. 'this' is no special realization.


Kunga Lhadzom said:
Then why are some Buddhas praised and some made to feel like they're idiots ?
Why are some Gurus honored and we are not ?
Why is there so much discrimination ?
Why is it, that I feel like I'm not good enough ?
Why aren't we all treated like Buddha's ?
Why is The Dali Lama, and all the famous Lamas treated like royalty, but I'm treated like a nobody ?

Malcolm wrote:
You have to examine yourself. Śrī Singha said to Padmasambhava:
Since buddhas and sentient beings are inseparable and the same, it is necessary to respect all sentient beings as being on the same level with the buddhas. Can you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2016 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
conebeckham said:
Is there the appearance of shadows?

Malcolm wrote:
No more than there is an appearance of black lines in the sky observed by those with fevers, or yellow conches observed by those with jaundice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2016 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Bahiya heard a few lines and became an Arahant. Student X heard a few pith instructions and became a Buddha.

Difference?

Malcolm wrote:
Omniscience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2016 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
rachmiel said:
Yes, but "that" to which the dharmadhātu attempts to point might (or might not) exist.

Malcolm wrote:
The statements means there is no reality, since outside the two truths, nothing else exists.

rachmiel said:
So per Buddhism there are no noumena, only phenomena. No objects casting the shadows in the cave, just the shadows.

?

Malcolm wrote:
Per Buddhadharma, neither phenomena nor noumena are established as real: as there are no objects to cast shadows, there are no shadows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2016 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
“Ultimate and relative” are also just emphatic labels,
but the two truths don’t exist in the dharmadhātu, the dharmadhātu does not exist.
— Virupa

rachmiel said:
Yes, but "that" to which the dharmadhātu attempts to point might (or might not) exist.

Malcolm wrote:
The statements means there is no reality, since outside the two truths, nothing else exists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2016 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Yup.  In which case recognition is not contingent on introduction, right?

Malcolm wrote:
You are not understanding the difference between a cause and a condition.

Sherab Dorje said:
Oh I understand the difference, but whether it is a cause or a condition the outcome is still contingent on it and thus...

Malcolm wrote:
No, when one has been introduced and recognized the basis, that is sufficient. For example, when one has been introduced to a person, the next time one sees them, one will recognize them. Of course, it is possible to forget their face after some time in a one time meeting, so once one has been introduced to a person, familiarization with that person, going to meet them again and so on, is recommended.

No one ever claimed that one was able to introduce oneself to the basis, or that having been introduced, there was nothing further to do. But what is stated is that there is nothing that needs to be transformed, changed or otherwise modified as a result of such an introduction. One needs only to familiarize oneself with the subject that was introduced. Indeed, in Dzogchen teachings, vidyā or rig pa is sometimes referred to as "the conditional basis," because vidyā or rig pa is conditional upon introduction and does not exist without it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, November 3rd, 2016 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
conebeckham said:
These threads are sort of ridiculous, frankly.

Malcolm wrote:
It did not begin ridiculous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
“Mahāmudrā” is a mental imputation of the childish.

-- Virupa.


Kunga Lhadzom said:
Bu twhat exacty is he really saying ?   Of course it its childish to impute Mahamudra mentally...because it's not a mental phenomena.   It is not in your mentality.  It is not you. It's the goddess Nairātmyā (no-self)




http://www.lionsroar.com/the-mahamudra-lineage/

Malcolm wrote:
“Ultimate and relative” are also just emphatic labels,
but the two truths don’t exist in the dharmadhātu, the dharmadhātu does not exist.
— Virupa


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
Mahāmudrā by itself connotes the ultimate truth, realization, or achievement of yoginī Tantra practice: the great seal that marks all phenomena and experiences; a synonym for suchness, sameness, emptiness, space, and the goddess Nairātmyā (no-self); unchanging bliss beyond object and subject, shape, thought, or expression; and the ultimate gnostic attainment, mahāmudrā-siddhī.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamudra

Malcolm wrote:
“Mahāmudrā” is a mental imputation of the childish.
-- Virupa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 7:10 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Why are you repeating what I said? Secondly, if recognition is conditioned by the introduction, then it would be necessary to be constantly introduced over and over again otherwise the recognition would cease.

Sherab Dorje said:
Yup.  In which case recognition is not contingent on introduction, right?

Malcolm wrote:
You are not understanding the difference between a cause and a condition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 9:45 AM
Title: Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Then I found a (not crazy) user here named Son_of_Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this guy is pretty crazy, in fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Is the English expression "son of Buddha" an idiosyncratic translation of the word "bodhisattva"?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a translation of jinaputra.

tomamundsen said:
Isn't jinaputra an epithet for bodhisattvas?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but it is not a translation of bodhisattva.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 7:51 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
DGA said:
The Green Party is basically the Whole Foods version of the alt-right.

Malcolm wrote:
hahahaha, so true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 7:50 AM
Title: Re: How effective are liberation-upon-seeing dharma doors?
Content:


Virgo said:
Malcolm, may I ask who told you this and if you still feel this way?  Thanks.

Kevin

Malcolm wrote:
Kunzang Dechen Lingpa told me this, and I still take this seriously.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Buddha's Son/Son of Buddha
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Is the English expression "son of Buddha" an idiosyncratic translation of the word "bodhisattva"?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a translation of jinaputra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Again, as in everything, first intent has to be shown.

AlexMcLeod said:
This isn't Buddhism. It is law. Whether I intend to break the law or not is irrelevant. The only relevant factors are whether the law is broken and if I'm the one that benefited.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no, actually. The reason cops get away with killing so many black kids is that the courts have to prove criminal intent or negligence in wrongful death suits.

The same applies to Clinton and her damn emails.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, November 2nd, 2016 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Queequeg said:
When you interfere with a criminal investigation, that's a criminal offense. Criminal offenses have criminal penalties. Criminal law is a whole different ball game.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, as in everything, first intent has to be shown.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 1st, 2016 at 9:34 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
rory said:
So you're comparing the gravity of behavior and prudence of HRC, the Secretary of State, charged with the nation's secrets with the host of Celebrity Apprentice?..

Here's why HRC is a disaster: She loves foreign wars, next is Russia....
Green party presidential candidate Jill Stein: Donald Trump is less scary on foreign wars, because he wants to work with Russia.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4624521/jill-stein-donald-trump-better-russia
gassho
ROry


Malcolm wrote:
Jill Stein is a fool for falling for this right wing bullshit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, November 1st, 2016 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Unknown said:
Over the course of decades, Donald Trump’s companies have systematically destroyed or hidden thousands of emails, digital records and paper documents demanded in official proceedings, often in defiance of court orders.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/11/11/donald-trump-companies-destroyed-emails-documents-515120.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
mossy said:
And the FBI is investigating crooked hillary again. Democrats could have had sanders but they went with hillary......

Malcolm wrote:
For lord's sake, they are not investigating Clinton. Please get your goddamn facts straight.

Fa Dao said:
yes...youre right...they were investigating weiner and happened to find even more stuff on hillary and are now re-investigating her...didnt you hear the announcement that comey made? and pissed off the justice dept with?

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are not reinvestigating Clinton. This is misinformation. They have not found anything. Comey himself admits that he had no knowledge of what was in Huma Abedin's emails.

Fa Dao said:
This morning I sent a letter to Congress in connection with the Secretary Clinton email investigation.  Yesterday, the investigative team briefed me on their recommendation with respect to seeking access to emails that have recently been found in an unrelated case. Because those emails appear to be pertinent to our investigation, I agreed that we should take appropriate steps to obtain and review them.

Of course, we don’t ordinarily tell Congress about ongoing investigations, but here I feel an obligation to do so given that I testified repeatedly in recent months that our investigation was completed. I also think it would be misleading to the American people were we not to supplement the record. At the same time, however, given that we don’t know the significance of this newly discovered collection of emails, I don’t want to create a misleading impression.  In trying to strike that balance, in a brief letter and in the middle of an election season, there is significant risk of being misunderstood, but I wanted you to hear directly from me about it.

Malcolm wrote:
To quote Bernie Sanders, "Enough about the damn emails."

Additionally, it seems quite likely Comey violated the Hatch Amendment. He should resign.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 12:48 PM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
Wayfarer said:
and at that point, no more need for a raft, I guess.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha stated:
Nothing here to remove,
nothing here to add; 
see the truth as the truth;
when the truth is seen, there is liberation.

Coëmgenu said:
Where is this from? Not that I am implying that it is a fake quote, I just like to read.

Malcolm wrote:
It is from the heart of dependent origination by Nāgārjuna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
Wayfarer said:
and at that point, no more need for a raft, I guess.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha stated:
Nothing here to remove,
nothing here to add; 
see the truth as the truth;
when the truth is seen, there is liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
Vasana said:
not knowing the source of the relative Is what keeps the wheel of suffering spinning.

Astus said:
If you assume there is a source, it is necessarily relative. What keeps the wheel spinning is the assumption that there is something ultimate to attain.

Malcolm wrote:
Revise that to, "What keeps the wheel spinning is the assumption that there is something ultimate," then it is perfect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 3:43 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:


Vasana said:
The ultimate can be defined in relative terms, yes, but what I was getting at is that the ultimate has no terms of it's self so to speak.

As you said earlier,
[...]defining the ultimate as beyond the mind because the very mind itself is relative.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why we describe the ultimate as empty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Nemo said:
Holy crap.
"An ABC News/Washington Post tracking poll released Sunday showed Clinton ahead 46% to 45% -- narrower than Saturday's 2-point Clinton edge.
In CNN's Poll of Polls, which averages results for the five most recently released national surveys, Clinton has a 47% to 42% advantage over Trump. That's unchanged from the most recent Poll of Polls on Saturday."

Gary Johnson and his 4.8% is the only thing between Trump and the Presidency.

Malcolm wrote:
Trump is still losing. Gary Johnson, bless his heart, is an idiot, and so is Jill.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:


Vasana said:
The ultimate isn't something that can be defined either.

Malcolm wrote:
The ultimate can be defined. In fact, it is necessary to define it. If one cannot define it, one cannot meditate upon it; if one cannot mediate on the relative example ultimate, one will not produce heat on the path of application. If one does not produce heat on the path of application, there is no chance that one will enter the path of seeing.

Therefore, we have different ways of definining the ultimate such as free from extremes, absence of inherent existence, emptiness, nonorigination and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
Whatever happened to the One Truth?

Malcolm wrote:
We are not discussing Dzogchen. We are answering someone's question concerning the two truths. The OP wanted it grounded in śastra, so I am obliging.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
rachmiel said:
I'm getting an "ultimate truth" is in the eye of the definer kinda feeling here ...

Which makes sense in a way ... since the definer is trying to hold water in their hand.

Malcolm wrote:
You might think so, however, since concepts are entities, they also have two natures, as Candrakīrti states:
Because all entities are perceived validly and falsely,
two natures will be discerned for a given entity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
rachmiel said:
So it's basically saying all we can speak knowledgeably of is relative truth. The nature of ultimate truth, if there is such a thing*, is pure guesswork.

* That would follow, yes ... that ultimate truth might be a mind-devised fiction.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of ultimate truth: conventional and actual. The former is a conceptual construct, the latter is the way things are. The former, however, is a valid approximation of the latter, in so far as it cannot be rejected with reasoning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
rachmiel said:
> The ultimate is not within range of the intellect;
> the intellect is said to be relative.

Is this at odds with the assertion that "Nothing has inherent essence/existence?" Or a different way of stating it?

Malcolm wrote:
It is statement defining the ultimate as beyond the mind because the very mind itself is relative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 31st, 2016 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Ultimate Truth
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Greetings all,

This is a wildly open-ended question, and obviously I don't expect an "ultimate answer", but, either practically or theoretically, what is "ultimate/absolute truth", either in respect to the polarity between that and "conventional truth", or just on its own? Individual opinions on this are fine obviously, but if your definition is grounded in a teachers words or a sūtra, please guide me to the source of them.

Malcolm wrote:
I think Candrakīrti's definition in the Madhayamaka-avatāra is best:
Any object of a veridical perception is real;
it is said that false perception is relative truth.
It is also held there are two kinds of false perception;
that of nondefective sense organs and that of defective sense organs.
And Śantideva's definition form the Bodhicarya-avatāra clarifies it well:
Relative and ultimate 
are held to be the two truths.
The ultimate is not within range of the intellect;
the intellect is said to be relative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2016 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Which leads to the questions:

If awakening is not innate, where does it come from?

If we are innately awakened, why are we ignorant?


Malcolm wrote:
We are not innately awake. Even Samantabhadra possessed ignorance.

Sherab Dorje said:
Which is why I normally like to take the safe route and call it a "potential".  But still this is problematic.

Malcolm wrote:
In the tradition of the Great Perfection, sugatagarbha is the basis, as the Inlaid Jewels Tantra states:

Just as oil has always been naturally perfect
within sesame seeds and mustard seeds,
the seed of the sugatas
with corresponding light is present
in the deceptively appearing bodies of sentient beings.
Sentient beings do not have an enlightened nature, and they are not aspects of Samantabhadra since the basis has never been tainted by ignorance. However, when they see their own nature, they are no different than Samantabhadra.

kirtu said:
Well, yes.  But the "enlightened nature" referenced is Buddha Nature or the potential for enlightenment.  Of course it is still technically a provisional teaching but still quite accurate.

Once again, not everyone is a garuda ..... and the whole point of "lower" teachings is to lead beings to the higher, not to present a seemingly infinite and unscalable cliff face that could discourage ....

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, I'm following Longchenpa, Gorampa, etc., have come to regard tathāgatagarbha and the Tathāgatagarbha Sūtras as a definitive in meaning, but for entirely different reasons than gzhan stong pas.

As to your second point, Dzogchen is an independent vehicle. There is no need to approach it as if one is somehow climbing the rungs of a ladder, indeed, that is the worst way to approach it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2016 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Which leads to the questions:

If awakening is not innate, where does it come from?

If we are innately awakened, why are we ignorant?


Malcolm wrote:
We are not innately awake. Even Samantabhadra possessed ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2016 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Thinley Norbu - Dzogchen account of a perfect woman?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Greetings all! I've been reading the new Thinley Norbu book "Echoes", which BTW is quite interesting, and I came across the following passage: I am not a great Lama, and there is not much I can say about Dzogchen to help you understand it in greater depth. In a sense Dzogchen is a very difficult subject to talk about. There is the Dzogchen account of a perfect woman, for  example, with a description of her waist, her hair, and so on. If I were to start talking about these things, it would arouse a lot of jealousy.
Does anyone know what this is about? I was wondering if it was just some kind of joke.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not really a "Dzogchen" account. It is the Tibetan appropriation of standard tropes about padminis which one can find in Kama Sūtra and so on, a subject I have written about elsewhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2016 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
'ccept that the result is not the Rigpa/Dharmata/Mahamudra/Prajnaparamita, but the recognition of the aforementioned.  This recognition is conditioned by the practice.  It is a consequence of practice.

Malcolm wrote:
That recognition is itself vidyā, mahāmudra, and prajñapārāmita.

That recognition is not a consequence of practice nor of meditation, it is a consequence solely of introduction. "Practice" consists of deepening familiarization with that recognition. As the Self-Arising Vidyā Tantra states in Chapter 4:
It exists as something that can be illustrated
to all unrealized sentient beings. 
There is neither arising nor declining
in the transcendent state of the tathāgatas.
Further, if it is asked what is the system of liberation,
it is liberation through the meaning of the oral instruction.

Sherab Dorje said:
In which case recognition is a consequence of introduction.  ie It is conditioned by introduction.

.

Malcolm wrote:
Why are you repeating what I said? Secondly, if recognition is conditioned by the introduction, then it would be necessary to be constantly introduced over and over again otherwise the recognition would cease.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2016 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If sentient beings had an enlightened nature, they could not achieve buddhahood since their nature is already enlightened.

Sherab Dorje said:
Or they are all already Buddhas and just not aware of it.  According to Mahayana the Buddha (apparently) achieved Buddhahood although already enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Greg:

Don't confuse the dramatic play of the nirmanakāya for the erroneous concept of innate awakening. The Lankāvatara Sūtra states:
Buddhahood is not attained in the desire realm,
the final accomplishment is in Akaniṣṭha.
And:
Perfect buddhahood is attained there,
the emanations attain attain buddhahood here.
And:
Buddhas do not attain buddhahood in
the desire realm or the formless realm;
free of desire, you attain buddhahood
in the form realm.
As to the idea that sentient beings are buddhas without knowing it, this is a popular misunderstanding based on looking at the words but not understanding the meaning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 30th, 2016 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
'ccept that the result is not the Rigpa/Dharmata/Mahamudra/Prajnaparamita, but the recognition of the aforementioned.  This recognition is conditioned by the practice.  It is a consequence of practice.

Malcolm wrote:
That recognition is itself vidyā, mahāmudra, and prajñapārāmita.

That recognition is not a consequence of practice nor of meditation, it is a consequence solely of introduction. "Practice" consists of deepening familiarization with that recognition. As the Self-Arising Vidyā Tantra states in Chapter 4:
It exists as something that can be illustrated
to all unrealized sentient beings. 
There is neither arising nor declining
in the transcendent state of the tathāgatas.
Further, if it is asked what is the system of liberation,
it is liberation through the meaning of the oral instruction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sentient beings do not have an enlightened nature,

Sherab Dorje said:
Cough, splutter...

Malcolm wrote:
If sentient beings had an enlightened nature, they could not achieve buddhahood since their nature is already enlightened.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Astus said:
A teaching cannot be unconditioned. The result of applying the teaching can be.

Sherab Dorje said:
If it is a result of applying the teaching then it arises conditionally based on the teaching.  ie The result is conditioned.

Malcolm wrote:
For example, previously one could not recognize gold. However one can recognize gold when instructed in how to recognize it, but that gold is not produced by the recognition. Likewise, previously one could not recognize dharmatā. However one can recognize dharmatā when instructed in how to recognize it, but that dharmatā is not produced by the recognition.

Unlike gold, however, dharmatā is not a conditioned or compounded entity. Dharmatā does not arise dependent on the introduction. Dharmatā, one's own nature, is present whether or not it is recognized, like the wish-fulfilling gem concealed under the lintel of a pauper's door.

Just as a gold bed pan or a gold Buddha statue are equally made of gold, when our own nature is not recognized, it is called "the basis." When it is recognized, it is called "the result," but it has itself undergone no transformation at all. For this reason then, the result is never conditioned because the basis is never conditioned. Nonrecognition of the basis is not a fault of the basis, it is a fault of the consciousness which apprehends the basis. When the basis is rightly apprehended, this is called vidyā, rig pa or knowledge. When the basis is incorrectly apprehended, this is called avidyā, ma rig pa, or ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: New Longchenpa translations from Eric Fry-Miller
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
The text are quite amazing
Heart Bindu of the Dakinis...

Malcolm wrote:
Is an incorrect translation of ḍākkini citta, a.k.a, mkha' 'gro snying thig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 8:36 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Why not indeed!  Why not rely on the enlightened nature of all sentient beings?  Why not apply the Dzogchen rhetoric of one truth and see all beings as Buddhas since they are nothing else but an aspect of the Dharmakaya of Samatabhadra and Samantabhadri?  Why separate reality into true and false?  High and low?  Etc...?

"Why?" indeed!

Malcolm wrote:
Sentient beings do not have an enlightened nature, and they are not aspects of Samantabhadra since the basis has never been tainted by ignorance. However, when they see their own nature, they are no different than Samantabhadra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:


maybay said:
I can't find any mention of promulgating the Dharma in MSL. What reasons and what contradictions?

Malcolm wrote:
" ecause the (vehicles) began together..."; pg.7, Thurman translation. 

I suggest you reread the first chapter with a bit more care.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 8:19 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
mossy said:
And the FBI is investigating crooked hillary again. Democrats could have had sanders but they went with hillary......

Malcolm wrote:
For lord's sake, they are not investigating Clinton. Please get your goddamn facts straight.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 6:56 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
kirtu said:
Overall this will have a serious effect blessing people.

Malcolm wrote:
Ridiculous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 6:54 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
maybay said:
No one is playing what if games here. The simple fact is this is the order in which it occurred, and now, like it or not , later teachings, traditions and teachers all make these earlier teachings the basis of their own.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is false. Why? For example, the Mahāyāna Sutrālaṃkara explains that the three turnings were turned at the same time. To interpret the three turnings as temporal in sequence is an error, they occurred at one and the same time.

maybay said:
If that is true then there is no basis for calling them first, second, third. There's a nice chapter just on the promulgations in Dudjom's NSTB.

Malcolm wrote:
They are called "first, second, and third" due to their content, not due to their temporal sequence.

Dudjom Rinpoche's presentation is based upon that Buton Rinchen Drup. But such presentation had already been long rejected by Loppon Sonam Tsemo for the reasons I outline above. Additionally, there are a host of contradictions which arise if the wheels were not turned simultaneously.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:


maybay said:
No one is playing what if games here. The simple fact is this is the order in which it occurred, and now, like it or not , later teachings, traditions and teachers all make these earlier teachings the basis of their own.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is false. Why? For example, the Mahāyāna Sutrālaṃkara explains that the three turnings were turned at the same time. To interpret the three turnings as temporal in sequence is an error, they occurred at one and the same time.


maybay said:
Id be interested  to see what percentage of scripture is spent using, citing, redefining, and attacking other teachings. I imagine its quite a lot.

Malcolm wrote:
Surprisingly little, in fact, when it comes to sūtra and tantra itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In fact, the final empowerment of the Rinchen Terzon contains an empowerment from Sangye Lingpa's cycles of termas called the "Poti Lung Wang." Not only does this empowerment contain an empowerment into the nine yānas, it also includes a section which grants one the empowerment for all termas past, present and future, as well as a method of giving oneself the lung for any text, sadhana or empowerment one might ever need.

maybay said:
This reminds me of all those ridiculous inventions you see advertised on TV that never catch on.

Malcolm wrote:
Are you calling Sangye Lingpa's termas riduculous?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
It seems to be that the interpretation of monastics as the third jewel is very common.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a mistaken idea.

The proper Sangha refuge for Mahāyānis is defined by Mātṛceṭa in the Triratnastotra:
Homage to the Āryasangha,
who have purified the obscuration of affliction and the obscuration of knowledge,
removing them gradually with antidotes, dwelling on the stages, 
benefitting sentient beings, and purifying buddhafields.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I consider all Sangha members objects of Refuge, Arya and not.  Why?  Because the Arya Sangha didn't just pop out of its own ass, it started off as dumb-ass ignorant fools just like you and me.  So, as far as I am concerned anybody that is making a REAL effort is cool by me.  A field of merit and an object of Refuge.

PS  I am not an Acharya, so you'll have to excuse me if sometimes I get terms mixed up.

Malcolm wrote:
Going for refuge to those who are not awakened damages one's refuge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
So dress me in orange and call me a Theravada then.

Malcolm wrote:
Even in Hinayāna, the Jewel of the Sangha does not refer to ordinary monks, but refers instead to āryas as well: stream entrants (who can be lay people), once returners, never returners, and arhats.

Sherab Dorje said:
Well then, I am just going to have to disagree on principle with these theories, take my chances and consider all sangha members as a worthy field of merit.  As you pointed out in another thread:  I am not really capable of figuring who is at what level, so...

Malcolm wrote:
Even ordinary sentient beings are fields of merit (the impure field). You are mistaking 'fields of merit" for "Objects of Refuge." They are not the same thing.

I thought you were a Dharma teacher. I am amazed you are not clear about these things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
This is all perfectly true at the level of ultimate truth.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no two truths, Greg. As the Soaring Garuda, one of the five original Dzogchen lungs brought to Tibet by Vairocana states:
Since phenomena and nonphenomena have always been merged and are inseparable,
there is no further need to explain an “ultimate phenomenon.”
Or as the All-Creating King states:
The one who talks about relative and ultimate—
words of exaggeration and deprecation—
does not understand the meaning of nonduality.
And:
Since I, the creator of all, have made all Dharmas, 
there is no need for the two truths in my Dharma. 
Who claims the two truths are needed in my Dharma?
All that I have made, was made in the state of bodhicitta.
Relative and ultimate do not exist in bodhicitta.

Thus we can see, the two truths are deviations from the meaning of the Great Perfection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No. The Jewel of the Sangha for Mahāyāna practitioners, including Secret Mantra practitioners, is only ārya bodhisattvas, i.e., bodhisattvas of the first bhumi and beyond.

Sherab Dorje said:
So dress me in orange and call me a Theravada then.

Malcolm wrote:
Even in Hinayāna, the Jewel of the Sangha does not refer to ordinary monks, but refers instead to āryas as well: stream entrants (who can be lay people), once returners, never returners, and arhats.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Why are these non-Nyingmapas so fussy?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, for historical reasons.

conebeckham said:
Yes, I think so....partially.  Then again, if a Shitro wangkur was the sole ingredient, we wouldn't need the Rinchen Terdzo, for instance, would we?
Historical.  Also, expedient.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, the final empowerment of the Rinchen Terzon contains an empowerment from Sangye Lingpa's cycles of termas called the "Poti Lung Wang." Not only does this empowerment contain an empowerment into the nine yānas, it also includes a section which grants one the empowerment for all termas past, present and future, as well as a method of giving oneself the lung for any text, sadhana or empowerment one might ever need.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:


Astus said:
It is still the only common ground among all Buddhists, regardless of how individual schools interpret it. And that makes it fundamental, the basis for everyone.

Malcolm wrote:
But it is not a common ground at all. Or, rather, because of the history of Buddhist Studies in the West, there has come to be a mirage of commonality which every one chases, but somehow, no one can quite reach.

maybay said:
What are u talking about? Western academics and their contrived problems?

Malcolm wrote:
I am pointing out that because of Western Buddhist studies, many Westerners maintain views like Astus, and indeed yourself, which hold that somehow śravakayāna teachings are a foundation or a bedrock, upon which all other Dharma systems must depend. We have unconsciously inherited this idea from the kind of Buddhist historiography we find in the West, in general.

While such ideas are not absent from traditional hermeneutics, the traditional approach to this in Tibet, for example, is predicated on the three vows, rather than historical analysis of the Pali Canon, the Agamas, and so on, because the traditional sense of Buddhist history does not proceed from the same set of assumptions Westerners use to approach Buddhist history (text critical, etc.). Astus' approach exemplifies the Western approach very well, in his assumption that the Nikāya/Agamas form a layer of teachings earlier than and prior to Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna, so that without the former, the latter could not have arisen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 29th, 2016 at 12:36 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But it is not a common ground at all. Or, rather, because of the history of Buddhist Studies in the West, there has come to be a mirage of commonality which every one chases, but somehow, no one can quite reach.

Astus said:
Even if the Agamas were not particularly popular in East Asia, and they were not transmitted to Tibet, the core doctrines, like the three characteristics, four noble truths, five aggregates, eighteen realms, twelve links and the thirty-seven factors have always been known.

Malcolm wrote:
These things are not core doctrines at all. They are just taxonomies.

Astus said:
Although if there is no common ground for the various groups, it also means that the paths they distinguish are different, and they actually do not say anything about the others, but rather simply make up their own structure of teachings. For example, the nine vehicles of the Nyingmapas say nothing about the teachings of the Kagyupas or the Theravadins, because those nine are merely their own interpretation of the teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
The nine yānas are also a taxonomy, a way of presenting distinct kinds of methodologies. Noone ever claimed they were a "core teaching." The Kagyus however, never dispute the nine yāna presentation, no matter how much it may have been disputed by first Sakyapas, and later, Gelugpas.

So what might be a core teaching of the Buddha, as opposed to a taxonomy?
This ambrosial Dharma I have obtained
is deep, peaceful, immaculate, luminous, and unconditioned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
maybay said:
It is fundamental in that it is, or was, essential. Without it we would not know what to make of higher teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, Charlie. Each vehicle is independent and does not depend on the others for either sense or context.

maybay said:
We were talking about turnings not vehicles.

Malcolm wrote:
The first turning of the Wheel of Dharma by Buddha Śakyamuni is not the first turning of the wheel of Dharma. The first turning of the wheel of Dharma was the teaching of the Realms and Dimensions of Sound Tantra (sgra thal 'gyur) by the Buddha Nangwa Dampa at the beginning of this great eon.

With respect to turnings, the teachings of Śakyamuni, as indeed the teachings of all nirmankāyas, are referred to as "unsystematic teachings." In this case, the first turning corresponds to śrāvakayāna, while the second and third correspond to bodhisattvayāna, all teachings of the general vehicle of the cause.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Dharma taught by the Buddha in the First Turning is palliative, not fundamental; provisional and not definitive.

Astus said:
It is still the only common ground among all Buddhists, regardless of how individual schools interpret it. And that makes it fundamental, the basis for everyone.

Malcolm wrote:
But it is not a common ground at all. Or, rather, because of the history of Buddhist Studies in the West, there has come to be a mirage of commonality which every one chases, but somehow, no one can quite reach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: New Longchenpa translations from Eric Fry-Miller
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
It's been more than a month for me

RikudouSennin said:
Have you emailed him?
Has he responded?

Crazywisdom said:
I haven't followed up. Seems pointless.


Malcolm wrote:
The notorious EFM.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
maybay said:
Liberation, ie nirvana, may be a fruit of practice, but it is not the goal. Its not something the ideal practitioner aims for. That would be improper motivation outside Hinayana, and in Dzogchen incorrect view.

Malcolm wrote:
Here, sir, you are absolutely mistaken. One cannot help others while one is still bound oneself. While I can agree with you that liberation as an end in it and of itself is a limited motivation; but to claim that liberation is not goal of Dzogchen practitioners is frankly absurd.

maybay said:
Recently I was being tested as to my knowledge of GPS. After completing some exercises I was asked to clear the waypoints I had used, but I didn't know how to, so I just reset the whole device to factory default. I inadvertently wiped all the custom settings on the GPS, which the chief wasn't happy about.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you might want to apply the same care you should have applied to your GPS device to how you parse Buddhist teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Astus said:
From both the historical and religious perspective, the primary/fundamental basis of the Dharma that everyone agrees on is the collection of teachings in the Nikayas and Agamas.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dharma taught by the Buddha in the First Turning is palliative, not fundamental; provisional and not definitive.

maybay said:
It is fundamental in that it is, or was, essential. Without it we would not know what to make of higher teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, Charlie. Each vehicle is independent and does not depend on the others for either sense or context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:
maybay said:
Trekchö means cutting through delusion with fierce, direct thoroughness. Essentially delusion is cut through with the irresistible force of the view of rigpa, like a knife cleaving through butter or a karate expert demolishing a pile of bricks. The whole fantastical edifice of delusion collapses, as if you were blasting its keystone away. Delusion is cut through, and the primordial purity and natural simplicity of the nature of mind is laid bare.

Sogyal Rinpoche

Malcolm wrote:
While I recognize this is one way of explaining khregs chod, there is another. According to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, the term "chod" in khregs chod is an intransitive verb; khregs here refers to a bundle of things; for example, khregs shing refers to a bindle of sticks. Hence the image in use is a bundle whose fastening has come apart on its own, without any agent unfastening it, since the verb has no direct object.

maybay said:
Where else is the word chod used?

Malcolm wrote:
All kinds of places, it is a common Tibetan word. In common language it is regarded as a the imperative of gcod, to cut.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Astus said:
From both the historical and religious perspective, the primary/fundamental basis of the Dharma that everyone agrees on is the collection of teachings in the Nikayas and Agamas.


Malcolm wrote:
The Dharma taught by the Buddha in the First Turning is palliative, not fundamental; provisional and not definitive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
maybay said:
the goal of dzogchen is not liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is. Do you want citations?

maybay said:
Liberation, ie nirvana, may be a fruit of practice, but it is not the goal. Its not something the ideal practitioner aims for. That would be improper motivation outside Hinayana, and in Dzogchen incorrect view.

Malcolm wrote:
Here, sir, you are absolutely mistaken. One cannot help others while one is still bound oneself. While I can agree with you that liberation as an end in it and of itself is a limited motivation; but to claim that liberation is not goal of Dzogchen practitioners is frankly absurd.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Mica said:
... I am really fascinated in the Ngakpa tradition...

Quay said:
A person can find endless fascination with playing with phenomena.

Sherab Dorje said:
The Ngagkpa are Buddhist lay Tantric practitioners.  That makes them one of the Three Jewels.

Malcolm wrote:
No. The Jewel of the Sangha for Mahāyāna practitioners, including Secret Mantra practitioners, is only ārya bodhisattvas, i.e., bodhisattvas of the first bhumi and beyond.

Even if we move to the inner refuges according to Secret Mantra, Guru, Deva, and Ḍākinī, the Sangha jewel is the Ḍākinis, not Ngakpas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:
maybay said:
Trekchö means cutting through delusion with fierce, direct thoroughness. Essentially delusion is cut through with the irresistible force of the view of rigpa, like a knife cleaving through butter or a karate expert demolishing a pile of bricks. The whole fantastical edifice of delusion collapses, as if you were blasting its keystone away. Delusion is cut through, and the primordial purity and natural simplicity of the nature of mind is laid bare.

Sogyal Rinpoche

Malcolm wrote:
While I recognize this is one way of explaining khregs chod, there is another. According to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, the term "chod" in khregs chod is an intransitive verb; khregs here refers to a bundle of things; for example, khregs shing refers to a bindle of sticks. Hence the image in use is a bundle whose fastening has come apart on its own, without any agent unfastening it, since the verb has no direct object.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna in general does not promise a rapid path— quite the opposite in fact— but nevertheless promises a higher path than Hinayāna. So long in fact, that by the criteria you suggest, most definitely middling and average practitioners of Mahāyāna will appear afflicted by comparison to even average practitioners of Hinayāna, so that is not a sure means of evaluation of paths.

Sherab Dorje said:
Of course it is a sure means, because a middling practitioner, of whichever path, is a middling practitioner NOW.  It is irrelevant if they reached here after a billion lifetimes of trying, three lifetimes of trying or one lifetime, they are all half way through.

Malcolm wrote:
I think we need a definition of terms. What is a middling Mahāyāna practitioner? What is a middling Hinayāna practitioner? What is a middling Vajrayāna practitioner? What is a middling Dzogchen practitioner? In the case of the latter, a middling Dzogchen practitioner is one who attains buddhahood in the bardo, not in this lifetime. An average Dzogchen practitioner attains buddhahood in a natural nirmanakāya buddhafield in the next life.



Sherab Dorje said:
With respect to liberation, the criteria of liberation is freedom from afflictions. But this also cannot be evaluated from outside.
Of course it can.  One just needs to observe anothers behavior to notice if they are afflicted or not.  Another method is to step on their callous and see how they react.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no. There is a famous account in the sūtras concerning one of Buddha's past lives.  Long ago, there were two groups of śrāmaneras. One group was headed by a very strict leader, whose discipline and renunciation was impeccable as it was famous. The other group was headed by a very liberal leader, who encouraged his students to go into the towns in the evenings, and mingle with the townsfolk in bars and restaurants, associating with men and women alike.

When the leader of the first faction heard about this, he was immediately disapproving of the second faction and their leader and reproached him severely. The long and short of it is, the first leader spent time in lower realms, and when he took rebirth as Śakyamuni Buddha, his sangha fractured into sectarianism as a karmic residue resulting from his criticism of the more liberal monk and his sangha.


Sherab Dorje said:
The argument for the Great Perfection, the summum bonum of all vehicles, is based on the fact that it cannot be ascertained through words and explanations, but only on the basis of the intimate instructions of a guru, which are not (as is commonly misunderstood from the name "intimate instructions," "pith instructions," and so on) solely based on explanations, but are a means of introducing someone to their own state in the form of a direct sensory perception which bypasses conceptual constructs. When a person with the fortune to meet a guru with such a lineage of instructions (assuming that person recognizes the meaning of the intimate instructions which they have been given), they will have no fear of ever falling into three lower realms ever again.
That's not an argument, that is an explanation of the didactic method and rhetoric about the effect.

Malcolm wrote:
It is indeed an argument. The only way it can be disproven is to demonstrate the premise is false. Please do try.

Sherab Dorje said:
If someone thinks that Dzogchen rhetoric is mere triumphalism, they have not understood the point of Dzogchen at all in the first place.
So if I don't agree with you, I don't know what I am talking about...  Somehow I don't think that is how Garab Dorje won his debate.  You certainly are not going to "win" this one with that line of "logic" either.

Malcolm wrote:
I already provided you with the reasoning whereby Garab Dorje defeated Mañjuśrīmitra in debate with the citation from Mañjuśrīmitra's text. You have not made any effort to contest it, which means you accept it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
maybay said:
the goal of dzogchen is not liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is. Do you want citations?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
However, this only applies to Nyingma. I am quite sure Sakyapas and Gelugpas do not accept this.

conebeckham said:
Nor Kagyupas.

dzogchungpa said:
Why are these non-Nyingmapas so fussy?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, for historical reasons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 4:46 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Someone who is not expert in paths will not necessarily be able to distinguish a correct path from an incorrect path, or a superior path from an inferior path. Only some people have the necessary knowledge to make such an evaluation.

Astus said:
When the so called expert decides what those paths are, it is quite straightforward to claim to be the upholder of the best of the best and paint everyone else as inferior. It is like the aesthetician who says that Pre-Raphaelites are inferior to Cubists, but Pointillists are truly the best of all.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why, rather than relying on the evaluations of paths made by scholars, we rely on the evaluations of paths made by buddhas.

Astus said:
the purpose of evaluating paths is due to the fact that everyone wishes to achieve liberation as rapidly as possible
Shravakas may worry about quick liberation, bodhisattvas realise that there is nothing to attain.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

Bodhisattvas may realize there is nothing to attain, but they sure spend a long time going about that nonattainment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
If the truth of Buddhism is relativity why can't the success of any path also be relative?

Malcolm wrote:
The success of any path based on cause and result must be relative. The success of a path that is not based on cause and result must be ultimate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
I don't think it's as simple as that. He is saying wrathful should be immediate and so is tregcho. So is there some connection? Of course there is... No method should be effortful in these deity practices. Trying is an obstacle always. Your quote teaches that.

Malcolm wrote:
No, Mañjuśrimitra is stating very clearly that there is direct method of realization and an indirect method. Mipham comments here:

If it is asked, “What is the method for realizing the definitive meaning through the indirect method?,” since nonactivity is illustrated with the activity of fabricated efforts, like pointing at the moon with a finger, also awakened mind correctly grasped through a symbol will accomplish awakening because the Bhagavan Buddha, the teacher of devas and humans, has declared that it is “great awakening.” Any unfortunate one who conceptualizes entities should make efforts in the indirect method of realization. 

In that case, this which is to be explained is the basis or cause of the meditation that generates ultimate awakened mind itself. If it is asked what that is, it is samadhi and mudra. 

Now then, through the power of cultivating the three samadhis of suchness, universal illumination and the cause, [14/a] one will be stable, and not carried away by negative conditions. After the meditation of binding the three symbolic mudras of buddhahood— the body (mahāmudra), the mind (samaya mudra), and the activities (karmamudra)—generate the mind as the great dharmamudra (the symbol of speech). One should then meditate the recitation of the essence mantra.

If one meditates generating the thought that the samadhis and the mudras are dharmatā and therefore are not different, the ultimate awakened mind will arise. If one actualizes the meditation, one realizes that all phenomena do not exist apart from one’s mind. The accumulations are gathered and obscurations are purified because of that meditation. One becomes realized because one’s continuum is blessed by the deity of pristine consciousness
.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Someone who is not expert in paths will not necessarily be able to distinguish a correct path from an incorrect path, or a superior path from an inferior path. Only some people have the necessary knowledge to make such an evaluation.

Likewise, someone who is not expert in gems will not necessarily be able to discern a real diamond from a fake diamond, a high quality diamond from a low quality diamond. Only some people have the necessary skills to make such an evaluation.

Since this is so, the fact that these criteria are only accepted by some Vajrayānis merely indicates that the skill to evaluate all paths is missing from schools other than Vajrayāna, and in particular, the Great Perfection.

Furthermore, the purpose of evaluating paths is due to the fact that everyone wishes to achieve liberation as rapidly as possible. Likewise, the purpose of evaluating gemstones is due to the fact that everyone wishes to know that they are buying the best quality gem possible.

Sherab Dorje said:
Fair enough, but a promise of rapid liberation is not a guarantee of rapid liberation.

And, of course, one should rely on expert advice, but it always happens to be the case that the expert giving the advice happens to be a practitioner of the path/vehicle, regardless of the path/vehicle.  Proof of the pudding is in the eating, yes?

But what I like to do, is not judge a tradition by its adepts, because the adepts of any religion/tradition seem to display the same qualities, I like to judge by the qualities displayed by middling/average practitioners.  They tend to be the dead giveaways.

Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna in general does not promise a rapid path— quite the opposite in fact— but nevertheless promises a higher path than Hinayāna. So long in fact, that by the criteria you suggest, most definitely middling and average practitioners of Mahāyāna will appear afflicted by comparison to even average practitioners of Hinayāna, so that is not a sure means of evaluation of paths.

With respect to liberation, the criteria of liberation is freedom from afflictions. But this also cannot be evaluated from outside. However, liberation is just half the Buddhist path, there is also omniscience. Since this omniscience is primarily defined from knowledge of the paths of awakening, it is also difficult to ascertain from outside.

The arguments for the efficacy of Vajrayāna over Mahāyāna is based on being an easy path, with many methods, for those of sharp faculties, and so on.

The argument for the Great Perfection, the summum bonum of all vehicles, is based on the fact that it cannot be ascertained through words and explanations, but only on the basis of the intimate instructions of a guru, which are not (as is commonly misunderstood from the name "intimate instructions," "pith instructions," and so on) solely based on explanations, but are a means of introducing someone to their own state in the form of a direct sensory perception which bypasses conceptual constructs. When a person with the fortune to meet a guru with such a lineage of instructions (assuming that person recognizes the meaning of the intimate instructions which they have been given), they will have no fear of ever falling into three lower realms ever again.

The point is not to proclaim, "My diamond is unflawed, yours is flawed," the point is to relieve sentient beings from anxiety about being forever trapped in samsara. This is why I reject your charge of triumphalism. If someone thinks that Dzogchen rhetoric is mere triumphalism, they have not understood the point of Dzogchen at all in the first place.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
OK, do you mean any wrathful sadhana, or any sadhana, period?

Malcolm wrote:
Any sadhana.

Crazywisdom said:
Any nyingma sadhana?

Malcolm wrote:
Any Nyingma sadhana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Any sadhana, no exception. Vajrasattva, being the main deity of Shitro, is the master of all buddha families.

dzogchungpa said:
Ok, thanks, that's good to know.

Malcolm wrote:
However, this only applies to Nyingma. I am quite sure Sakyapas and Gelugpas do not accept this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 2:36 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
This is really true. It is a special feature of the Nyingma school.

dzogchungpa said:
OK, do you mean any wrathful sadhana, or any sadhana, period?

Crazywisdom said:
Any that's fits into shitro mandala which is every important nyingma method.

Malcolm wrote:
Any sadhana, no exception. Vajrasattva, being the main deity of Shitro, is the master of all buddha families.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Is that really true? I did not know that. Very interesting.

Malcolm wrote:
This is really true. It is a special feature of the Nyingma school.

dzogchungpa said:
OK, do you mean any wrathful sadhana, or any sadhana, period?

Malcolm wrote:
Any sadhana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: New Longchenpa translations from Eric Fry-Miller
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps you should request your money back.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
... having received more or less any Shitro empowerment, from that point onward one only needs the lung and the instructions in order to practice any sadhana.

dzogchungpa said:
Is that really true? I did not know that. Very interesting.

Malcolm wrote:
This is really true. It is a special feature of the Nyingma school.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Astus said:
Criteria: rainbow body, all the signs along the path of Vajrayana etc
How are those criteria objective when they are accepted only by some Vajrayana followers?

Malcolm wrote:
Someone who is not expert in paths will not necessarily be able to distinguish a correct path from an incorrect path, or a superior path from an inferior path. Only some people have the necessary knowledge to make such an evaluation.

Likewise, someone who is not expert in gems will not necessarily be able to discern a real diamond from a fake diamond, a high quality diamond from a low quality diamond. Only some people have the necessary skills to make such an evaluation.

Since this is so, the fact that these criteria are only accepted by some Vajrayānis merely indicates that the skill to evaluate all paths is missing from schools other than Vajrayāna, and in particular, the Great Perfection.

Furthermore, the purpose of evaluating paths is due to the fact that everyone wishes to achieve liberation as rapidly as possible. Likewise, the purpose of evaluating gemstones is due to the fact that everyone wishes to know that they are buying the best quality gem possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Is Trekchod a form of wrathful practice?
Content:
Gyurme Kundrol said:
Ive been studying wrathful practices, their meaning and purpose, and came across the idea that the essence of wrathful practice is something like trekchod- an immediate and forceful cutting through of delusion and a return to the non-dual state. Is trekchod considered a wrathful practice and if you can do trekchod well is there even any need to get wrathful empowerments? Does a wrathful practice (such as Vajrakilaya) add anything that trekchod doesnt already include?

Also are there wrathful practices which can be done without empowerments and or if you have received certain empowerments like the Zhitro are there wrathful practices you can do even if you havent received a special empowerment for that particular deity?

Malcolm wrote:
Trekchö is not a wrathful practice, and it involves no effort. If one is using effort to "cut through" anything, one has not discovered trekchö.

As to your second question; while wrathful yidams like Kilaya are for dealing with secondary issues, they can also be used as means for discovering the meaning of trekchö. Mañjuśrīmitra writes:
Furthermore, since the teacher has declared that awakening can be correctly grasped with a symbol,
in that case, this is the basis of the meditation that generates awakened mind. 
After the three samadhis are stable and after binding the three symbolic mudras, 
generate the mind as the great dharmamudra and meditate the recitation of the essence [mantra].
People who, for whatever reason are not capable of directly approaching the meaning of the Great Perfection directly, can do so indirectly via the means of sadhana practice.

Finally, there are no wrathful practices that do not require empowerment, but having received more or less any Shitro empowerment, from that point onward one only needs the lung and the instructions in order to practice any sadhana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Maybe it is just too nuanced for a brute like me to perceive.

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Read Mañjśrimitra's Meditation on Bodhicitta ( byang chub sems bsgom ). He wrote it as an apology for being defeated in debate by Garab Dorje.

Sherab Dorje said:
Which is proof that Garab Dorje is a good debater.  Then what?

Malcolm wrote:
Garab Dorje was a nirmanakāya buddha. You can either accept his teachings or not, it is up to you. If you can't accept his teachings, it is better for you to leave them aside, rather than criticize them. If you do accept his teachings, then you have no basis to argue with me at all.



Sherab Dorje said:
The claim is not that the Dzogchen path takes one beyond cause and effect; the claim is that the language of cause and effect are themselves incoherent, and any path based on ideas of cause and effect is likewise incoherent.
Personally, I think you are splitting hairs.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you are not paying attention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 28th, 2016 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Fair enough.  Now you can go off and convince all the (pseudo) dzogchenpas of this fact.  I wish you the best of luck!

Malcolm wrote:
I don't need to convince anyone of anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2016 at 10:11 AM
Title: Re: Remote Teaching Centres and Programmes
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I am aware of several online training courses and resources for Buddhist teachings, such as Dharma Ocean, and FPMT, and DharmaNet. However I think a useful resource would be a structured home-study and practice program, with some teacher oversight.

In my case, I have a regular daily practice, and have attended retreats and lectures so am familiar with the Buddhist teachings and principles. But my own practice is a bit patchy and I think a curriculum of things to learn, and a regular schedule of activities, would really help to give it structure; I feel like I'm wasting a lot of time by being so irregular in my practice, but I'm not that good at self-management with nobody to oversee my activities.

For instance, in monastic and retreat centres, there is a regular schedule, and also a calendar, around which observances and practices are organised. A lightweight version of that approach would be really helpful. I wouldn't imagine it would need to go to nearly the same depth as the above-mentioned centres. But it could incorporate some liturgical materials, meditation practices, and things to commit to memory, and so on.

Is the community aware of any such resources out there?

Malcolm wrote:
Try Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche's Tara Triple Excellence program


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2016 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
For example:  if somebody claims their path is the most direct and fastest path to liberation, then they need to demonstrate the reality of the claim.

Malcolm wrote:
Read Mañjśrimitra's Meditation on Bodhicitta ( byang chub sems bsgom ). He wrote it as an apology for being defeated in debate by Garab Dorje.

Sherab Dorje said:
If somebody claims their path takes them beyond cause and effect, then they need to demonstrate the reality of this claim.

Malcolm wrote:
The claim is not that the Dzogchen path takes one beyond cause and effect; the claim is that the language of cause and effect are themselves incoherent, and any path based on ideas of cause and effect is likewise incoherent. Mañjuśrimitra states:
It may be said, “The way all this is produced is dependent origination, arising and ceasing.”
Like a burnt seed, a nonexistent is not produced from a nonexistent; the cause and the result do not exist. 
The mind that clings to entities and clings to cause and result
itself appears as cause and condition, but because they are nondual, there is no arising and perishing. 
Because there is no arising and perishing, there is no self and other. Because there is no death and transmigration, there is no permanence and annihilation. 
Therefore there is no delusion or samsara. In fact, there is also no nirvana.

Sherab Dorje said:
If somebody claims that their path is the highest and only for those of highest capacity, then...

Malcolm wrote:
The claim in Dzogchen is that there are no differences in capacity.  There is no "higher" or "lower." The sole difference between people is whether or not they possess the intimate instruction from their guru. As Zhabkar explains in the Soaring Garuda:
If this is practiced, all will be liberated;
there is no distinction between sharpness and dullness in capacities.
If one practices, even a cowherd will be liberated.
If one understands the significance of the luminosity of one’s mind through direct perception,
the rhetoric of scholars is not necessary here;
just as when one eats molasses,
there  is no need to explain the taste of molasses.
Without understanding this, even a paṇḍita will be deluded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2016 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Luke said:
I haven't been following this thread recently.  I just wanted to say how impressed I am with Jill Stein!  She is perhaps the most ethical American presidential candidate I have ever seen!

Malcolm wrote:
Oh hardly, she owns stock in Merck (think Vioxx) and Home Depot (think union-busting). Moreover, like many others on the progressive left, she regularly repeats falsehoods which originate from the far-right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2016 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Anybody can say that their path is the best, the fastest, the highest, etc...

Few can actually prove it via the fruit of their practice.


Malcolm wrote:
How would one go about proving such a thing?

PuerAzaelis said:
By not asserting its superiority.

If someone feels the need to assert superiority instead of demonstrate it, he betrays his disinterest in real persuasion.

That issue would be completely irrelevant to a superior path.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there are three paths, causal paths, resultant paths and the path beyond cause and result. How could someone possibly prove the superiority of a path via the fruit (or result) of practice when such a concept is negated at the outset?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2016 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Anybody can say that their path is the best, the fastest, the highest, etc...

Few can actually prove it via the fruit of their practice.


Malcolm wrote:
How would one go about proving such a thing?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2016 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Fa Dao said:
as well as all of the world leaders repeating the tired old phrase every time yet another atrocity happens in the name of islam..."Nothing to do with islam".
The Dalai Lama has said there is no such thing as a “Muslim terrorist” as anyone who partakes in violent activities is not a “genuine” Muslim...“Buddhist terrorist. Muslim terrorist. That wording is wrong,” he said. “Any person who wants to indulge in violence is no longer a genuine Buddhist or genuine Muslim, because it is a Muslim teaching that once you are involved in bloodshed, actually you are no longer a genuine practitioner of Islam.”

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/dalai-lama-muslim-terrorism-islam-no-such-thing-as-video-watch-speech-a7317001.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2016 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Fa Dao said:
...the horrific doctrine that is islam.

Malcolm wrote:
BTYW, it is pretty hard to claim you are not a bigot when you make unqualified generalizations like this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 27th, 2016 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
Try criticizing America on any national platform in America, like that football player did with his passive protest. "Simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize".

Malcolm wrote:
The amazing thing about football players in the NFL standing for the national anthem is that it was a "custom" that seems to have begun in 2009.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?
Content:


BuddhaFollower said:
How come Jigme Linga didn't understand where the Vajrasana was?

Malcolm wrote:
Poor geography classes in school.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?
Content:
shaunc said:
However if it's magic tricks you're after may I suggest a circus.

BuddhaFollower said:
Its not a magic trick.  Dipa Ma trained from the Visuddhimagga.

Steps:
1. You master the jhanas.
2. You master kasinas.
3. Then you can change one element into another.  This leads to the siddhis.

Malcolm wrote:
Go for it, BF.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Fa Dao said:
just think that Hillary has gotten a free pass for far too long.

Malcolm wrote:
What does this even mean? One of the amazing things about this election is the blatant mysogyny with which it has been colored. While no great fan of Clinton, the unwavering mysogynistic attacks on her from the GOP have caused me to become ever more sympathetic with her. What I find increasingly amazing is that the progressive left in this country is willing to use smears against her from the far right with ever more enthusiasm and with an increasing lack of discrimination.

Fa Dao said:
Was not aware that islam was a "sect" of Buddhadharma....

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism is one sect, Islam is another. As practitioners of Buddhadharma we should not give into sectarian anxiety and prejudice, especially those of us who are nominally practitioners of Mahāyāna.

Fa Dao said:
do I have some concerns about all of the bombings, beheadings, shootings, throwing people off of rooftops, stabbings, stonings etc etc that are going on all over the world in the name of islam? Yep, you bet I do! Dont you???

Malcolm wrote:
The victims of terrorist violence perpetrated by people who are nominally Muslims are overwhelming other Muslims. However, the number one killer of Muslim noncombantants remains the United States and its Western Allies. For example, 1.7 million children died as a result of US sanctions against Iraq, according to the UN.

According to the Physicians for Social Responsibility report, http://www.psr.org/assets/pdfs/body-count.pdf," 1.3 million people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan have directly or indirectly been killed by the war on terror.

By contrast, ISIS has only managed to kill roughtly 1200 people outside of Iraq and Syria.

Fa Dao said:
Do I have anything against individual muslims? NOPE!  As I have said so MANY times before..I dont have a problem with individual muslims...

Malcolm wrote:
You have no idea how prejudiced this sounds.

Fa Dao said:
I do have a problem with some of the totalitarian ideology that is laced throughout the dcotrines of islam

Malcolm wrote:
From where did you gain this expertise on the Qur'an? With whom did you study it? How good is your classical Arabic?

Fa Dao said:
as well as all of the world leaders repeating the tired old phrase every time yet another atrocity happens in the name of islam..."Nothing to do with islam".

Malcolm wrote:
They are correct. The actions of so called "Muslim Terrorists" are criminal, and thus they should be tried as criminals. Their actions are not motivated by any systematic doctrine which can be found in the Qur'an.

What you and others who crow about "Radical Islamic Terrorism" fail to understand is that use of language legitimizes them as "Muslims." It is clearly a biased and discriminatory use of language. For example, in this country, people who murder people at reproductive health clinics  are never identified as "Christian terrorists," and yet bombings of and shootings at reproductive health clinics continue unabated.

We never discuss Christian violence against Muslims in Africa. 60,000 Muslims fled the Central African Republic in 2014 fleeing Christian militias intent on murdering them.

And of course in this country, the righ-wing militias are gearing themselves up https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/14/three-kansas-men-calling-themselves-crusaders-charged-in-terror-plot-targeting-muslim-immigants/?tid=hybrid_collaborative_2_na&utm_term=.347906ea9c09

Fa Dao said:
Islamophobia is a ridiculous word created by the muslim brotherhood to deflect any and all critical discussion about the horrific doctrine that is islam.

Malcolm wrote:
The term "Islamophobia" was not coined by the Muslim Brotherhood. This is yet another oft-repeated, right wing conspiracy theory. According to the OED, the "Qur'an" of all things English, the term is attested to in English as early as 1923.

The modern usage of the term finds its source in a commission established in 1996 by the Runnymede Trust, the Commission on British Muslims and Islamophobia, which published a report in 1997 entitled, http://www.runnymedetrust.org/uploads/publications/pdfs/islamophobia.pdf. The report defines Islamophobia as, "...an outlook or world-view involving an unfounded dread and dislike of Muslims, which results in practices of exclusion and discrimination."

Fa Dao said:
And by the way...it doesnt make one a "racist" for questioning and trying to discuss  the "teachings" found in islam....

Malcolm wrote:
It certainly makes one a bigot when one does so from a position of near total ignorance about the religion of Islam. The very fact that you use scare quotes in the sentence above when describing Islamic teachings means that you have made up your mind already about a religion of which you and most Americans are wholly ignorant. In Buddhadharma, when we "question" the teachings of another school, it is done on the basis of a thorough and sympathetic critical review of those schools. Islam is deserving of no less.

Fa Dao said:
what race is islam? Wake up people...pull your heads out of the PC sand...I think Voltaire said it best..
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"

Malcolm wrote:
Its never ceases to amaze me when intelligent people uncritically pull quotes off the internet that have long been known to be penned by fascists. Basically my friend, you need to stop reading alt-right websites. It's poisoning your moral compass.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 10:14 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
tomamundsen said:
Just to add another viewpoint to the mix:

I know some practitioners who view the zen, chuba, etc. as a form of passive proselytizing. Some will walk around urban areas in full attire. The idea is that someone may look at the person and think "hmmm, I wonder what he's up to?" or something of that nature and spark some kind of interest in Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people will convince themselves of anything. If the Dharma were in outfits, outfits would be liberation.

tomamundsen said:
I don't think anyone would claim people would become liberated by seeing someone in Buddhist robes. Just maybe spark interest, like when the Buddha saw a sramana on the side of the road outside the palace walls.

Malcolm wrote:
We clearly have different ideas. I think practitioners should be invisible. YMMV. Also, as you know I am not a fan of proselytization, passive or otherwise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Dipa Ma could fly through the air, walk through walls, dive into the ground etc etc.

The Vajrayana mystical stuff is merely having visions of deities, travelling to Pure Lands in dreams and pulling stuff out of rocks and the ground.

Malcolm wrote:
The real question is: why do you believe some stories and reject others?

As for your contentions about Vajrayana practices, passing through mountains, etc is part and parcel of the tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 9:45 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
tomamundsen said:
Just to add another viewpoint to the mix:

I know some practitioners who view the zen, chuba, etc. as a form of passive proselytizing. Some will walk around urban areas in full attire. The idea is that someone may look at the person and think "hmmm, I wonder what he's up to?" or something of that nature and spark some kind of interest in Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people will convince themselves of anything. If the Dharma were in outfits, outfits would be liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Fa Dao said:
the snopes article did not debunk anything..the most it said was that the clinton campaign denied it....and they have been sooo honest with us in the past

Malcolm wrote:
OMG, Clinton is going to bring Sharia Law to America!!!

Fa Dao said:
really Malcolm? a strawman argument? seriously? At least when it comes to Buddhadharma you are always able to back yourself with citations etc...maybe you should stick with that?

Malcolm wrote:
You have loudly broadcast your anxiety about and prejudice against Muslms. In my opinion practitioners of Buddhadharma should be above such sectarian anxiety and prejudice.If I did not know better I would peg you as a Trumpista.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
DGA said:
And no, neither Monsanto nor the Rockefeller family nor the New World Order is paying me to plant false flags.

seriously tho wake up sheeple. jet fuel doesn't melt vaccines or flouride or whatever.

The Cicada said:
Sounds like disinformation to distract from Obama's secret "Chocolate Rain" project that is injecting our water supply with RNA sequences to alter our genes.


Malcolm wrote:
Oh yeah, here it is:

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


DGA said:
It works better in the plural.  Like this:

Nobodies take this paranoid crap seriously.
This is an unkind thing to say, but it is correct.

And no, neither Monsanto nor the Rockefeller family nor the New World Order is paying me to plant false flags.


seriously tho wake up sheeple. jet fuel doesn't melt vaccines or flouride or whatever.

Queequeg said:
It is mean.

The question is, chicken or egg? Nobody because they're paranoid? Or Paranoid because they're nobody?

I'm interested in this more because this kind of thinking seems to be a symptom of something more immediate.
Other factors are at work in creating a conspiratorial mind. Uscinski and Parent note that in laboratory experiments “researchers have found that inducing anxiety or loss of control triggers respondents to see nonexistent patterns and evoke conspiratorial explanations” and that in the real world “there is evidence that disasters (e.g., earthquakes) and other high-stress situations (e.g., job uncertainty) prompt people to concoct, embrace, and repeat conspiracy theories.”
- https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-people-believe-in-conspiracy-theories/

Other factors-
1. Group Identity
2. Education

There are many reasons we need broader participation in community and community decision making and I'd go farther and say, reorganization of the wealth distribution system. Happiness of our fellows, encouraging everyone to have a sense of agency, might be one of the most important.

Malcolm wrote:
All of you should stop what you are doing right now, and read Regarding Nature: Industrialism and Deep Ecology by Andrew Mclaughlin, SUNY, 1993.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 26th, 2016 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Fa Dao said:
the snopes article did not debunk anything..the most it said was that the clinton campaign denied it....and they have been sooo honest with us in the past

Malcolm wrote:
OMG, Clinton is going to bring Sharia Law to America!!!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
How can you? It seems in this respect you are hoisted on your own petard.

Sherab Dorje said:
That is what I was saying:  That we can't know.  There was no petard to speak of.


Malcolm wrote:
What you said was:

Sherab Dorje said:
And this is where you theory stumbles and falls. The Buddha chose the colours, the hairdo and the garments so that Buddhist ascetics DID stand out from non-Buddhist lay-people and clergy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, in fact he did not.

Sherab Dorje said:
How do you know that?  I based what I said on what is written in the Vinaya.  Now, of course, there are later accretions to the Vinaya, but how can you know exactly what the Buddha said?

Malcolm wrote:
How can you? It seems in this respect you are hoisted on your own petard. Further, which Vinaya?

It is completely clear, BTW, that the differences between styles of robes and the adoptions of color schemes are post-Nirvana conventions, as are the ordination rituals and compilations of the Vinaya in general.

Sherab Dorje said:
Having a shaved head was a common practice among many śrāmanera communities of the time.
Sure it was.  I am talking about the shaven head in combination with the rest of the package.

Malcolm wrote:
There is considerable evidence that during the time of the Buddha, his sangha was not obviously discernible from other contemporary śrāmanera communities in Ancient India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana vs Hinayana, accusations of supersessionism, expedient means, et al.
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
...makes it all the more confusing and upsetting that Western Buddhologists have done such a good job of convincing the word that "Hinayana" in ancient texts absolutely refers to Theravada practice, which most ancient Mahayana practitioners would have had no contact with to judge it so.

Malcolm wrote:
The ancestors of the Thervavada school taught the Dharma, which in its general features is not terribly distinct from the teachings of the other schools classified under the "18 schools."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana vs Hinayana, accusations of supersessionism, expedient means, et al.
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
There's already been a sūtra reference from a polemical sūtra, so I may start there...In this context the passage on the three turnings of the wheel of doctrine is presented. Here the underlying intent (samdhi) not only of Hinayana teaching but also of the Prajnaparamita scriptures is presented as in need of explication, for their meaning has to be drawn out (neyartha) through the fully explicit (nitartha) hermeneutic of the previous analysis of consciousness...If you are familiar with this sūtra, do you happen to know the reasons that are found therein as to why the "Hinayana" teachings were/had to be taught in such a way?


Malcolm wrote:
The sūtra is silent on the subject of the three turnings apart from mentioning them and giving an outline of the them. No other sūtra mentions the subject.

The Indian tradition, what we possess of it, is also largely silent on the matter. Tibetan traditions following Buton have seized on the matter and have expressed a number of different interpretations, but generally consider the tathāgatagarbha doctrine is being the principle representative of the third turning. The Gelugpa are contrarians here in this respect, rejecting the Saṃdhinirmocana and the third turning as provisional since they locate this sūtra in the Yogacara school since it also mentions the ālayavijñāna.


Coëmgenu said:
If the Buddha were capable of giving teachings where "their meaning [does not have] to be drawn out (neyartha) through the fully explicit (nitartha) hermeneutic of the previous analysis of consciousness," why didn't he just teach the "perfect" teaching at the beginning?

Malcolm wrote:
His students would not have understood it.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 11:10 AM
Title: Re: Mahayana vs Hinayana, accusations of supersessionism, expedient means, et al.
Content:


Coëmgenu said:
Do you think that this lack of leading-ability toward removing "subtle knowledge obscurations" is due to a deficiency of what the Buddha taught them (the Agama-Nikaya layer of Dharma-dispensation) or because of their own interpretations of the Dharma?

Malcolm wrote:
According Saṃdhinirmocana sūtra, the first turning of the wheel, what we commonly associate with Nikāya Buddhism, is incomplete, provisional, and subject to dispute, as was the second turning. The third turning was a restatement of the second turning in no uncertain terms so that it would be understood as complete, definitive, and not subject to dispute.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: How do buddhas contact people?
Content:
Luke said:
If we assume for a moment that Buddhas like Amitabha, Akshobya, etc. exist in different parallel universes, what is the mechanism through we which they can contact us and we can contact them?

It's clearly some faster-than-light mechanism...


Malcolm wrote:
I think email works pretty well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Is there any evidence Buddhism rejects the Vedas?
Content:


BuddhaFollower said:
The first source cited by Wikipedia, Secularism and Religion-Making, doesn't support what is claimed.  In fact it supports what I'm saying:

" It is clear, for instance, that the āstika–nāstika distinction so often pressed into service
to reinforce the separation of “Hindu” and “Buddhist” traditions is a fluid and changeable
mode of classification with shades of meaning and application that shift according to
context. The Buddhist philosopher Nāgārjuna, for instance, refers to the Vaiśesika school as
one of several nāstikas (nonaffirmers) in his work the Ratnāvalī I, v. 60–61"

I don't have access to the second.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, just read the verse 60-61 of the Ratnavali.


BuddhaFollower said:
What does it have to do with anything?

60 They implicitly have no nihilistic thesis
And also have no nihilistic behavior
And due to relying on [the path to]
enlightenment have no nihilistic thought.
Hence how can they be regarded as nihilists?

61 Ask the Samkhyas, the followers of Kanada,
Nirgranthas,
And the worldly proponents of a person and
aggregates,
Whether they propound
What passes beyond “is” and “is not.”
na pratijñā na caritaṃ na cittaṃ bodhiniśrayāt |
nāstikatve ’rthato yeṣāṃ kathaṃ te nāstikāḥ smṛṭāḥ ||60||

無言行及心 由依菩提故
若說彼墮無 何因不墮有

| gaṅ dag don gyi med ñid du | | dam mi ’cha’ źiṅ mi spyod pa |
| byaṅ chub rten phyir sems med na | | de dag ji ltar med par bśad |

[For us] there is no thesis to be demonstrated, no rules of conduct, and on account of our taking shelter in the supreme illumination,
not even mind, our doctrine is really the doctrine of nothingness. How then can we be called nihilists?


sasāṃkhyaulūkyanirgranthapudgalaskandhavādinam |
pṛccha lokaṃ yadi vadaty astina_stivyatikramam ||61||

僧佉鞞世師 尼揵說人陰
約世汝問彼 若說過有無

| gaṅ zag phuṅ por smra ba yi | | ’jig rten graṅs can ’ug phrug daṅ |
| gos med bcas la gal te źig | | yod med ’das pa smra na dris |

You may ask the common people along with its philosophers either the Sāṃkhyas or the Vaiśeṣikas or the Jainas
or those who maintain the existence of a personality as represented by the five groups whether they preach a doctrine like ours beyond the dualism of existence and non-existence.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=record&vid=69&mid=116981


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
[

And this is where you theory stumbles and falls.  The Buddha chose the colours, the hairdo and the garments so that Buddhist ascetics DID stand out from non-Buddhist lay-people and clergy.

Malcolm wrote:
No, in fact he did not. All he insisted was that early robes were to be made out of discarded shrouds and dyed any color one pleased so they would not be white.

The number of robes, three, were gradual add ons.

Having a shaved head was a common practice among many śrāmanera communities of the time.


Sherab Dorje said:
This served a number of purposes:  If an ascetic behaved in a wholesome manner then the meritorious behaviour was immediately associated with the practices of the BUDDHIST monastic community.  If an ascetic engaged in unwholesome behavior he was easily identifiable and thus ran the risk of expulsion.

Malcolm wrote:
In reality, especially early on, there was little to distinguish a Buddhist monk from some other kind of śrāmanera.

The protocols around the color of robes, and the patterns of the cloth were much latter additions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Is there any evidence Buddhism rejects the Vedas?
Content:


BuddhaFollower said:
I don't accept Chinese texts as sources.

Malcolm wrote:
That is idiotic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Content:
manjusri said:
Thank you Malcolm. So, generally, a Dzogchen teacher would not even teach this doctrine to his/her students?


Malcolm wrote:
It is necessary for any discussion of the vehicles of cause and result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Content:
manjusri said:
Can anyone enlighten me on where Dzogchen stands relative to the Two Truths Doctrine? I have come across the view that there is only a "single truth" in Dzogchen? Moreover, did the historical Buddha teach some variant of the two truths? My understanding is that Nagarjuna based his doctrine on the words of the historical Buddha (Kaccayanagotta Sutta).

Malcolm wrote:
The two truths do not exist for Dzogchen. As the Soaring Garuda states:

Since phenomena and nonphenomena have always been merged and are inseparable,
there is no further need to explain an “ultimate phenomenon.”
And Mañjuśrīmitra explains that the two truths are the same:
Therefore, because awakening and nonawakening are the same in terms of absence of characteristics, there is nothing to accept or reject.
In accordance with that meaning, all those explanations 
of the nominal ultimate, the absence of arising and ceasing, sameness, 
nonduality, beyond thought, emptiness, the dharmadhātu, 
freedom from expression and convention, and so on are neither ultimate nor relative.
If it is said, “This is the path in accordance with the ultimate,” that is relative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 2:38 AM
Title: 91% of the Things Donald Trump Says Are False
Content:
Unknown said:
They don’t care that Donald Trump lies; they love him because his lies soothe them. His lies appease them. His lies make them feel justified and righteous. His lies make them feel good about who they are. The voters are the children who do not want to be grown ups and the grown ups in the party have indulged them and fed them candy to keep from having to parent, and now they are stuck with a monster of a child.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.politicususa.com/2016/03/31/ninety-one-percent-donald-trump-false.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Is Vajrayana the 'third turning'?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
I have noticed a passage on the Wikipedia article about Vajrayana:

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Vajrayana#/Third_turning_of_the_wheel

The text under the heading says: 'Vajrayana can also be seen as the third of the three "turnings of the wheel of dharma".'

Whereas, I had understood that 'the third turning' was generally understood to be Yogācāra.

Is this recognised by the tradition, or ought the article to be edited?

Malcolm wrote:
Some people assert that the Uttaratantra is a transitional doctrine presaging Vajrayāna. But Vajrayāna is not a separate turning of the wheel.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
muni said:
Is this contradicting the Buddha's teachings? Is religious harmony in any way harming Buddhism or is it teaching itself?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, but asserting that all traditions point to the same truth is simply a wrong view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Rakz said:
Also, I know many degree holders who serve coffee and flip burgers. So much for prestige and a better lifestyle. A degree is not a ticket to the middle class as they once were.

Queequeg said:
It also depends on the degree you get.

Many liberal arts degrees don't get you anything, except maybe some entry level job paying $25,000 a year. That's fine if you have parents paying your rent while you work for less than minimum wage and gain experience. If you're smart enough, you'll be able to translate that into something better in a few years. Or you go back to grad school after a while. Takes money to make money, they say.

If you don't have that luxury, don't have any particular genius, you probably should pursue a Bachelor of Science (instead of arts), and pick a field where there are demands. Engineering, nursing, for instance. Be willing to transfer where the jobs are when you graduate. You may not get to live someplace sexy like San Francisco or Brooklyn or Austin, but you'll be in a position to have a solid middle class life by taking that chemical engineering job in St. Louis.

The dirty secret they don't tell kids coming up the social ladder is that they don't have the luxury of reading literature for four years or studying art history unless their parents are in a position to support them through the first few years of their post-college lives so that they can take poorly paying or non-paying jobs that allow you the experience, exposure and connections you need to build one of those creative careers.

Malcolm wrote:
STEM is destroying education and turning people into uncultured f*&kwits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen does not make a distinction between persons of sharper and duller capacity, for example, unlike lower paths.

cyril said:
But still, there are practitioners who can never relax in the natural state more than a split-second, others who are almost never distracted and then anything in-between. Wouldn't that allude to some difference in regards to personal capacity?

Malcolm wrote:
No, this merely points to a difference in diligence and familiarization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
muni said:
DGA wrote there are some who hold what might be called a universalist view
What is an universalist view?

Malcolm wrote:
The belief that all religious traditions point to the same truth. It is also called "perennialism'."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
Is there a serious lack of context for monastic attire too?  Obviously, yes.  Does that mean that monastics should not wear their robes too?

Malcolm wrote:
In many cases, yes, they should not wear monastic attire if they have something else less likely to stand out. For example, if they have to work at a job, they should wear professional clothing. If they wish to wear club colors, fine. But slacks and shirts please.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 25th, 2016 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:
Jeff H said:
In passing, and without having read the whole thread, I'll just note that the gradations (limitations) I speak of are largely a matter of what teachers and teachings one has been previously exposed to, not some inherent, personal capabilities. I believe one's karmic causes determine what conditions one will encounter and which of those will activate any particular latencies.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and we are persons who are fortunate to have even encountered the name "Buddha", much less, "Great Perfection."

That said, I never stated that teachings like lam rim, mind training and so on were useless. Like all tools, they have uses, as well as limitations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 24th, 2016 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:


muni said:
All traditions point to the same truth.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they certainly do not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 24th, 2016 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: comparing paths, uniting paths, and practicing a path
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
In this regard it is better to pursue Dzogchen teachings which offer a guaranty of liberation in this life, the bardo or the next life in the nirmanakāya buddhafields.

Jeff H said:
I anxiously await your book!

I know little about Dzogchen but I know there is a Bodhisattva vow that warns against disparaging lesser paths, namely Hinayana, because a Bodhisattva must understand and appreciate all the necessary means for any individual being to attain enlightenment. Does Dzogchen not respect those on lower paths?

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot understand all paths unless you understand the limitation of each path.

Dzogchen, being the essence of all paths, merely points out the limitations of other paths, i.e., the ways in which they obscure the meaning of buddhahood.


Jeff H said:
Meanwhile I continue to believe there are many like me who more appropriately follow a graduated path.

Malcolm wrote:
The notion of gradual vs. sudden is a self-imposed limitation. Dzogchen does not make a distinction between persons of sharper and duller capacity, for example, unlike lower paths. In Dzogchen, there is no notion that there are some people who cannot understand the meaning of Dzogchen.

There is only the notion that there are people who either have not had the fortune of meeting Dzogchen teachings or whose own conceptuality regarding cause and effect, and so on, prevent them from embracing Dzogchen teachings whole-heartedly.

Once a person decides to embrace Dzogchen teachings and is willing to dispense with the conceptual limitations about buddhahood imposed by the paths of cause and result, there is no obstacle placed in the way of people who wish to learn about Dzogchen teachings. Dzogchen teachings make no distinction between persons of sharper and duller capacity as I mentioned above. A proper teacher is all that one requires to follow Dzogchen teachings.

Any teacher who claims that Dzogchen requires one to be a person of high capacity, etc., frankly, does not know what they are talking about and should be immediately understood as a person of very limited understanding of Dzogchen teachings.

On the other hand, there are today teachers who use the name "Dzogchen" to defraud students into following them, who then never give actual teachings on Dzogchen, or who are given mistaken teachings on Dzogchen. So, caveat emptor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 24th, 2016 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
The teacher I received the ngakpa initiations from gets pissed off if we don't wear our ngakpa attire when practicing.


Malcolm wrote:
Just what sort of costume does rigpa wear?

Sherab Dorje said:
Whatever costume it damn well pleases!

Malcolm wrote:
Thus no costume at all is required. Ngakpa attire is symbolic, but not essential. There is no compunction to wear it. It's voluntary.

There is a serious lack of social context for Ngakpa attire in western countries, unlike the garb of religious ordinands belonging to Catholicism, etc. This is why it seems odd to others outside of a retreat center.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 24th, 2016 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpa tradition & magic
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
The teacher I received the ngakpa initiations from gets pissed off if we don't wear our ngakpa attire when practicing.


Malcolm wrote:
Just what sort of costume does rigpa wear?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 24th, 2016 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That all depends on whether or not one accepts Dzogchen teachings as the definitive teachings of the Buddhas. YMMV.

Sherab Dorje said:
I take it your aim is to bore everybody into Dzogchen by trotting out the same stuff every single time in every single thread?


Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 24th, 2016 at 2:36 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In this regard it is better to pursue Dzogchen teachings which offer a guaranty of liberation in this life, the bardo or the next life in the nirmanakāya buddhafields.

Greg said:
And since Dzogchenpa say it, it must be true!

Malcolm wrote:
That all depends on whether or not one accepts Dzogchen teachings as the definitive teachings of the Buddhas. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 24th, 2016 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
You cool with that?  Fine.  But you better makes damn sure you reach enlightenment in this lifetime, otherwise you are screwed.

Malcolm wrote:
In this regard it is better to pursue Dzogchen teachings which offer a guaranty of liberation in this life, the bardo or the next life in the nirmanakāya buddhafields.

Sherab Dorje said:
Hence the reliance of Vajrayana practitioners on all three levels of vows.

Malcolm wrote:
One has no need to rely on a vow which one is in no danger of breaking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 24th, 2016 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I said, "so what," not "ok."

Jeff H said:
Sorry, I didn't mean to misrepresent your position. Is there a difference? Do you mean by this that it's not ok? Are you saying it's neither ok nor not ok?

Is there any such thing as distinguishing appropriate and inappropriate behavior, at this mundane level, for a person who is voluntarily pursuing a Buddhist path before they have established sufficient mental discipline to transform all behaviors? Is renunciation necessary for any Buddhist practitioners?

Incidentally, I'm not criticizing or judging anyone. I am sincerely trying to understand when the principles of what to adopt and what to abandon are legitimately negated.

Malcolm wrote:
Who can consider Vinaya reliable since it is embedded in ancient gender disparities between men and women? How are they even relevant today?

Even the way the vow against sexual misconduct is formulated (even where I agree with it) is a reflection of patriarchal economic values embedded in property relations and principally refers to male sexual conduct. The formulation of bhikṣuni vows is clearly oppressive towards women since they must follow an additional 111 extra vows, on top of the 253 vows prescribed for bhikṣus.

Thus, in the face of this kind of disparity, whether or not monks watch porn is pretty much a nonissue since Buddhist institutional monasticism systematically oppresses women.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 24th, 2016 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Gyurme Kundrol said:
Being a monk does mean you have a responsibility to uphold conduct that will not create delusion in the minds of sentient beings regarding Dharma. This doesnt mean never breaking a vow though. It would mean however in this case that the monk in question should apologize, confess, make amends, seek to not do this again and so forth.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, this expectation created a situation where, in Tibet, the convention came to be telling lay people that they were not privileged to know what monks vows were, because if they did know, they might criticize monastics for breaches of their discipline and loose faith.

Just another patriarchal means of control...

Interestingly, after being rejected by the Tibetans proper in Tshang, the Dzogchen teachings were first spread and preserved on the Tibetan plateau in a matriarchal society, the country of rGyal mo tsha ba rong, literally, "The Hot Gorge of the Queens.

Gyurme Kundrol said:
The rGyalrong are one of the many ethnic and linguistic groups of western Sichuan.  Due to the extreme nature of the mountains and valleys where they live, they have been relatively isolated throughout much of their history, resulting in a wide variety of divergent dialects.  There is documentation of the rGyalrong as early as the Tang dynasty (AD 608-917) describing a legendary matriarchal society, ruled by a queen, protected by fortress-like watchtowers along a river of gold.  Ancient towers still stand, and the Dajin River (大金川, Big Gold River) flows through rGyalrong territory, historically rich in gold.

Malcolm wrote:
https://collectanealinguistica.wordpress.com/2015/11/08/in-search-of-a-language-unrecognised-part-2/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2016 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


Nemo said:
The median income of a Trump supporter is 72,000$ a year. I hate to break it to you but that means most Trump supporters have a degree. .

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2016 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Jeff H said:
Agreed, but I think there are standards for supporting one another on the path and monasteries have an historical role in that.

Malcolm wrote:
My friend, there is virtually no real practice in monasteries.

Jeff H said:
Some of us need remedial support of a more imperfect nature while we attempt to shape our own future selves.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not advanced at all. But I am confident that monasteries are not the refuges that monastic propaganda would have us believe.

Jeff H said:
Ok, I'll buy that as a position. The argument, then, is: porn in monasteries is ok because monasteries themselves are not ok (as vehicles for Buddhist refuge?).

Malcolm wrote:
I said, "so what," not "ok."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2016 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
Perhaps you should get your thoughts together about patriarchy and publish them in a single cogent volume with your name on it

Malcolm wrote:
I can do that in one sentence: patriarchy is a socio-economic system in which every everyone and everythings' moral and spiritual value is predicated on their economic value in a market economy dominated by men.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 23rd, 2016 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Which I pointed out is not certain, since there is no agreement among lineages as to what these vows entail in their particulars.

Sherab Dorje said:
And now you are invoking your authority and the dog continues to chase its tail.  It is incredibly tiring to have a conversation with somebody that cannot even recognize when somebody is agreeing with them.


Malcolm wrote:
Hahahahah, nice try, Greg. I am not invoking my own authority. As to your agreement, you may agree with my conclusion, but I suspect the route we travel to get to that agreement is rather different. For example, as a proponent of deep ecology, I can certainly agree with Christian and Socialist environmentalists that the environment is worth saving, but the routes we all take to come to a common conclusion are founded an very different perspectives.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Jeff H said:
I object to those who say, “Porn in the monastery? So what?”

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot fix samsara for others, only for oneself. Therefore, "Porn in the monastery? So what?"

Jeff H said:
Agreed, but I think there are standards for supporting one another on the path and monasteries have an historical role in that.

Malcolm wrote:
My friend, there is virtually no real practice in monasteries.
Some of us need remedial support of a more imperfect nature while we attempt to shape our own future selves.
I am not advanced at all. But I am confident that monasteries are not the refuges that monastic propaganda would have us believe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist forums and why you choose to be active on dharmawheel
Content:
The Cicada said:
I'm here because I'm a religious fanatic who enjoys arguing with rich people.


Malcolm wrote:
Then you're in the wrong place.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Jeff H said:
I object to those who say, “Porn in the monastery? So what?”

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot fix samsara for others, only for oneself. Therefore, "Porn in the monastery? So what?" I do not say it was "ok," I just said it was of no consequence. But then again, I have no confidence in religious corporations in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
]It may surprise you to know that I agree 100%.  I was saying the exact same thing.

Malcolm wrote:
What you did was invoke an authority:
Instead of heeding the advice of all the legitimate teachers to (as a Vajrayana practitioner) observe all three sets of vows,
Which I pointed out is not certain, since there is no agreement among lineages as to what these vows entail in their particulars.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Instead of heeding the advice of all the legitimate teachers to (as a Vajrayana practitioner) observe all three sets of vows, which, depending on the capacity of the practitioner may legitimately involve renunciation, they just puff out their chest and posture, while indulging their ego.

Malcolm wrote:
While other people self-righteously berate others about vows, similarly indulging their egos.

kirtu said:
Sounds like quite a projection.  I have not seen people "self-righteously berate" others about vows.  A couple of times I have personally heard that but online I have almost never seen it.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
What do you think was going on here?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, I for one have never said a Vajrayana practitioner cannot resort to renunciation. But the "canker of sensuality" is a phrase that hardly belongs to the language of Vajrayana. "Indulging in pleasure" is also a heavily loaded expression, is it not?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is not entirely true. We discuss asrava ( zag pa ) all the time in Vajrayāna even in Dzogchen. The "body with effluents" is a common phrase, and effluents here refers to the three or five afflictions.



treehuggingoctopus said:
What never ceases to amaze me is that "pleasure-seeking" or "indulging in pleasure" becomes a problem for some people (almost) only when it comes to sex. It is OK when one takes great pleasure in what one is eating, studying, listening to, reflecting on, drinking (provided it is alcohol-free!), etc. It is also quite OK to pursue openly such pleasures, and talk about doing so. Everybody praises our erudition, or the exquisite honing of some of our skills, or our devotion to a particularly charming hobby.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, all of these activities are associated with asravas, i.e., "outflows," effluents," or "cankers" (weeping sores).

Vajrayāna does not deny afflicted phenomena. Its approach to them with respect to the path however differs markedly from lower yānas as you know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
While other people self-righteously berate others about vows, similarly indulging their egos.

Sherab Dorje said:
A bit of self-directed valid criticism (because in your hurry to respond negatively to what I said, it seems you did not notice that the criticism was directed at myself too) goes a long fracking way.  I, at least, am willing to admit my incapacity as a practitioner.  Hopefully it will save me a tonne of suffering in the future.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, praising oneself with faint criticism is often a proffered justification of the harsh criticism of others, i.e., "I'm not perfect, but that other person..."

As far as the three vows go, this is an interesting literature, but none of it is decisive nor conclusive. Why? Because no one agrees on how they should be interpreted, for example, the controversy over whether the fifth samaya merely refers to abandoning Mahāyāna bodhicitta, or the release of semen. Tibetan scholars spend lifetimes obsessing about issues which are of no fundamental importance.

However, if we get the essence of the three vows, rather than being distracted by their particulars, the essence of the Hinayāna vows is not harming others. Therefore, the evaluation of pornography from this point of view should be "Does my action of indulging in erotica or pornography harm others?"

The essence of Mahāyāna vows is helping sentient beings. Therefore, the evaluation of pornography should be, "Does my action of indulging in erotica or pornography cause me to objectify women (and men)— treating them as objects of personal gratification— and cause me to  lose sight of them as persons deserving of my compassion?"

The essence of general Secret Mantra vows is pure vision. Therefore, the evaluation of pornography from this point of view should be "Does my action of indulging in erotica or pornography lead me into engage in impure vision?"

We won't get into Dzogchen, since in Dzogchen, there is nothing to abandon or adopt, but only something to recognize.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
The Cicada said:
Some perspective. (Check out the facial expressions in the background. )

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


http://www.dancarlin.com/product/common-sense-310-or-else/

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the audience's discomfort with clumsy, graceless Donald is palpable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
For me the issue is not about indulging the senses, the issue is also about how one indulges the senses.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, from the perspective of Tibetan Medicine/Ayurveda, it is quite possible to abuse one's senses with sense objects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
Personally, it seems to me, that many (almost all) here could (legitimately, even within a Vajrayana context) benefit from renunciation when it comes to sense pleasures...

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna is not a path of renunciation (i.e. a path of giving up objects of desire), just as common Mahāyāna, while a path of renunciation, is not a path of self-centered renunciation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Instead of heeding the advice of all the legitimate teachers to (as a Vajrayana practitioner) observe all three sets of vows, which, depending on the capacity of the practitioner may legitimately involve renunciation, they just puff out their chest and posture, while indulging their ego.

Malcolm wrote:
While other people self-righteously berate others about vows, similarly indulging their egos.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 11:31 AM
Title: Re: The Whiggish view of history and Buddhism
Content:
MiphamFan said:
I think you have too specific a definition of "middle", conditioned by your own perspective. It seems like you are using middle as an absolute point, with Marxism on the left and crony capitalism with reactionary social views to the right.

I personally would just call middle and mainstream whatever is in mainstream political discourse. The Overton window.

What is "middle" today in America was not "middle" 100 years ago, nor middle in Roman times. I'd argue for example that socialist parties posed a far greater threat to capitalism in the pre-WW2 period than they do today. So "Leftism" then was a much more effective opponent of the "Right" than it is today. But both "Left" and "Right" are meaningless if you extend the timeline over a longer period.

There are plenty of things that are not mainstream and not necessarily alt-right, for example, what I discussed in the OP, that progress and growth will face limits, we cannot expect perpetual economic growth. Even Green parties don't discuss this.

Malcolm wrote:
Green Parties are not really green, since they have come to a rapproachment with Capitalism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 6:33 AM
Title: Re: The Whiggish view of history and Buddhism
Content:
Wayfarer said:
So actually things aren't as bad as he foresaw at the time.

Malcolm wrote:
No, in fact things are considerably worse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: Is there any evidence Buddhism rejects the Vedas?
Content:




BuddhaFollower said:
Unifying Hinduism by Nicholson pages 2-3:

After this late medieval period, it became almost universally accepted that there was a fixed group of Indian philosophies in basic agreement with one another and standing together against Buddhism and Jainism.
Similarly the widely studied 2nd-3rd century CE Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna, in Chapter 1 verses 60-61 of Ratnāvalī, wrote Vaiśeṣika and Sāṃkhya schools of Hinduism were Nastika, along with Jainism, his own school of Buddhism and Pudgalavadins (Vātsīputrīya) school of Buddhism.[20][21]

Malcolm wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80stika_and_n%C4%81stika

BuddhaFollower said:
The first source cited by Wikipedia, Secularism and Religion-Making, doesn't support what is claimed.  In fact it supports what I'm saying:

" It is clear, for instance, that the āstika–nāstika distinction so often pressed into service
to reinforce the separation of “Hindu” and “Buddhist” traditions is a fluid and changeable
mode of classification with shades of meaning and application that shift according to
context. The Buddhist philosopher Nāgārjuna, for instance, refers to the Vaiśesika school as
one of several nāstikas (nonaffirmers) in his work the Ratnāvalī I, v. 60–61"

I don't have access to the second.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, just read the verse 60-61 of the Ratnavali.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 6:31 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
People with an agenda

Malcolm wrote:
You brought up her story, not me.

maybay said:
No one asked who started it.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, I was pointing out that this was your agenda, not mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Is there any evidence Buddhism rejects the Vedas?
Content:


BuddhaFollower said:
This classification is late medieval, after the decline of Buddhism in India.

It really is meaningless.

Malcolm wrote:
I rather doubt it, since Nāgārjuna uses the term in the Ratnavali.



BuddhaFollower said:
Unifying Hinduism by Nicholson pages 2-3:

After this late medieval period, it became almost universally accepted that there was a fixed group of Indian philosophies in basic agreement with one another and standing together against Buddhism and Jainism.
Similarly the widely studied 2nd-3rd century CE Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna, in Chapter 1 verses 60-61 of Ratnāvalī, wrote Vaiśeṣika and Sāṃkhya schools of Hinduism were Nastika, along with Jainism, his own school of Buddhism and Pudgalavadins (Vātsīputrīya) school of Buddhism.[20][21]

Malcolm wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80stika_and_n%C4%81stika


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
People with an agenda

Malcolm wrote:
You brought up her story, not me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: Is there any evidence Buddhism rejects the Vedas?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddha rejects śruti, the idea that the Vedas are self-originated. This is why Buddhism was classed as a nastika tenet system.

BuddhaFollower said:
This classification is late medieval, after the decline of Buddhism in India.

It really is meaningless.

Malcolm wrote:
I rather doubt it, since Nāgārjuna uses the term in the Ratnavali.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: The Whiggish view of history and Buddhism
Content:
maybay said:
Methinks OED needs to re-examine that one.

Also, what kind of notation is "/=" ? Not equal in boolean algebra is "!=".

Malcolm wrote:
Lazy boolean algebra, means you do not have to hit the shift key. /=


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Secret Map of the Body
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
There is a book titled 'Secret Map of the Body'.
What school or cycles is this connected with?
Or is it is based on Indian Higher Yoga Tantras?

Malcolm wrote:
Based largely on Indian Tantras, is a synthetic commentary on Sakya Lamdre and Drukpa Kagyu tantric anatomy by13th century master, Yang Gongpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 3:43 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
She then cultivated her guru's instructions and having giving up all activities, she remained for one year. After her husband came and took her to his house, she did all the mundane work and activities, she agreed to comply

maybay said:
Nobody asked her to comply -  not in either of the translations I'm looking at. And just for everyone else who reads this Dowman has that she went to her new husband "without demur", i.e. without protest and the usual nonsense. "In her new home she performed everything that was expected of her cheerfully and uncomplainingly, always speaking modestly and sweetly, thus controlling both her body and speech."

Malcolm wrote:
In the Tibetan, "After her husband came and took her to his house...." the verb is khyer ba which means "to be carried away" The verb is commonly used to describe what happens to one when caught in a flood. This term indicates that she did not go willingly, especially in light of the protest against her parents.

Dowman's translation above is excessively interpretive— the words "new home," "demur, "cheerful," "uncomplaining," and "expected" exist nowhere in the Tibetan text and are not implied at all.


maybay said:
If we are going to characterize this story, I think Manibhadra the Domestic Drudge is a more apt analogy than "Happy Housewife."
Well that's just your opinion man. The story goes she was from wealthy family. Drudgery seems unlikely. It it weren't for Kukkuripa she wouldn't have considered liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
You miss another essential point in the story— that she sat for a whole day looking at the broken pot on the ground. Why do you think so?

Considering that she had already been beaten and abused verbally by her parents for running off to follow Kukkuripa to begin with, and was "carried off" or "taken" by her husband after having remain on her own for a year following that, the entire story suggests that she was in a situation of involuntary, domestic servitude (the condition of billions of women and girls in the world today) through an arranged marriage over which she had no control— which is what makes her doha at the end more poignant.
Now I shall go to great bliss without returning 
to the house of samsara.
In this case, the "happy" housewife is equating her home with samsara. Some happy housewife.


maybay said:
I don't know why you seem so desperate to deny this possibility.

Malcolm wrote:
This issue is not housewives in general and the obvious fact that many women today find this a fulfilling, satisfying life. The issue is Manibhadra specifically, and her obvious unhappiness with her state of domestic servitude, her youthful rebellion and her eventual emancipation more than a decade after meeting her guru.

Indeed, this tale is edifying example for women inso far as Manibhadra shakes free of the shackles of mundane, patriarchal domesticity and realizes her own power as an independent women. Recall that in general the tales of the 84 Mahāsiddhas virtually always contain some element of transgression of conventional norms. A common women shaking free of her domestic role and abandoning her husband and young children would have been nothing short of totally shocking and transgressive to Indians in the 11th century.

My critique is not directed at liberated men and women, but rather the patriarchal values that overlook, demean, and obscure women (with rare exceptions like the four female Mahāsiddhas, the Therigatha and so on) through the near total silence of women's voices and the obvious male fetishization of women found in Buddhist literature in general, and particularly in the Niruttarayogatantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Is there any evidence Buddhism rejects the Vedas?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
I've read a lot of translations, and never once did I read anything rejecting the Vedas.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddha rejects śruti, the idea that the Vedas are self-originated. This is why Buddhism was classed as a nastika tenet system.

He did not necessarily reject the Vedas themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: The Whiggish view of history and Buddhism
Content:


DGA said:
Well, the most popular political sentiment of a particular society at a given time might not  be in the middle and often isn't.  Socialism was pretty popular in the USSR; the mainstream was far to the left of the spectrum.  Similarly for Fascist Italy--the mainstream was far to the right, and those in the center might be dissenters, out of the mainstream.

so the mainstream doesn't correspond necessarily to the political center.

Malcolm wrote:
Popularity /= mainstream

Also, you did not qualify your terms.

DGA said:
"Mainstream" means widespread or predominant and has since Carlyle coined the term in the early 19th century, and that is the sense in which I meant "popular."

Malcolm wrote:
OED seems to predominantly define "mainstream" as normal or conventional.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: The Whiggish view of history and Buddhism
Content:
DGA said:
truthfully, I don't know where to position a mainstream on a spectrum.

Malcolm wrote:
In the middle?

DGA said:
Well, the most popular political sentiment of a particular society at a given time might not  be in the middle and often isn't.  Socialism was pretty popular in the USSR; the mainstream was far to the left of the spectrum.  Similarly for Fascist Italy--the mainstream was far to the right, and those in the center might be dissenters, out of the mainstream.

so the mainstream doesn't correspond necessarily to the political center.

Malcolm wrote:
Popularity /= mainstream

Also, you did not qualify your terms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: The Whiggish view of history and Buddhism
Content:
DGA said:
truthfully, I don't know where to position a mainstream on a spectrum.

Malcolm wrote:
In the middle?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:



boda said:
You need to understand that making something illegal is not always a solution, and can even cause more problems and suffering than it's supposed to relieve.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, for example, Prohibition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: The Whiggish view of history and Buddhism
Content:
MiphamFan said:
"Conservatives" conserve socioeconomic privileges for their elites and make a show of conserving social values, but no 18th century observer would call them "conservative" in any sense of that word;

Queequeg said:
The Conservative battle cry in the US in 2016 is, "Make America Great Again ". Emphasis added. In the UK, it was a retreat from European integration which is often championed on the idea that integration is the greater destiny. If they had to be described, these are archaisms, longing for some idealized past.

DGA said:
The Trump people and the Brexit people aren't conservatives.  They are reactionaries.  Your description is a precise definition of reactionary logic.

Malcolm wrote:
I second this. This is the reason why the GOP is in disarray.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 22nd, 2016 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
malcolm said:
I think you missed the part where Dowman observes the ratio of male to female siddhas in the 84 Mahāsiddhas is 20:1.

maybay said:
Why is that significant? Clearly the function of the compilation, if we can suppose one, was to show that enlightenment is available in a variety of karmic circumstances. And it does just that.

Malcolm wrote:
Clearly the compilation was written from a male-centric point of view, which reinforces my point.

maybay said:
But I think you missed the point of the quote which is that the enlightened Manibhadra (who probably represents the most populous role in society of all the 84) rebukes the very agenda you are heroically pursuing in her name.

Malcolm wrote:
The point of the story is that she is unhappy with family life, and when she breaks the pot she says:
To what home will
beginningless sentient beings go
when the clay vessel of their bodies is broken?
My clay vessel has long been broken, 
Now I shall go to great bliss without returning 
to the house of samsara.
E ma! Those who wish to attain bliss
should rely on the amazing guru!
You also seem to lack the understanding that she rebelled against her parents after receiving the Cakrasamvara empowerment and instructions from Kukkurpa:
The guru saw that the girl's continuum was ripe, and bestowed upon her the empowerment of Cakrasamvara. After she was given the instruction for unifying creation and completion, she practiced in that retreat place for a week. Then she retuned to her parents. 

Since they beat and derided her, the girl said, "If the three realms are pure, are you not my parents? Though your family and lineage are important, you do not turn away from samsara. I have been struck by the accomplishment of liberation based on my guru! I shall follow the path," and left them speechless. 

She then cultivated her guru's instructions and having giving up all activities, she remained for one year. After her husband came and took her to his house, she did all the mundane work and activities, she agreed to comply in body and speech, and spoke pleasantly, and so on.
She continued in this way for 12 years, had a couple of kids, etc., then she has the incident with the pot. So I think that your characterization (while understandable given the way it is presented in the translation you are using) is thoroughly inaccurate.

If we are going to characterize this story, I think Manibhadra the Domestic Drudge is a more apt analogy than "Happy Housewife."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
laws seeking to outlaw pornography are an attack on the First Amendment.

Kunga Lhadzom said:
Then why is indecent exposure illegal ?

Malcolm wrote:
Simply put, when someone flashes a penis at you on the street, it is assault. Erotica and pornography are films and literature which one peruses voluntarily, and thus are protected speech.

Kunga Lhadzom said:
Why can't you have sex in public places ?

Malcolm wrote:
It is considered "lewd and indecent behavior." But when you peruse erotica and pornography in your home or on your own computer, etc., it is considered protected speech.

Kunga Lhadzom said:
Why can't you go nude on a beach ?

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on the beach. For example, there are many "clothing optional" beaches all over the United States, for example, in Cape Cod, Long Island, etc. It is also legal to be nude in public in places such as Burlington, Vt. and so on.


Kunga Lhadzom said:
Also,Porn is immoral, according to Buddhist standards :

1. No sex in the daytime
2. No anal sex
3. No oral sex
4. No beastiality
5. No sex with minors
6. Wrong livelihood

Malcolm wrote:
If you wish to follow rules 1-3, fantastic, more power to you.

It might be argued from a Buddhist POV that the pornography industry, item 6 on your list, is a species of human trafficking, but personally, I think that would be an over-application of the principle. All actors in the pornography industry must a) prove their age b) sign consent forms in order for that pornography to be considered legal.

I also agree that there is illegal pornography which is a result of human trafficking.

As for 4 and 5, animals and children cannot give consent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
justsit said:
Trump may be inevitable. President Trump is not.

The Cicada said:
They keep calling him "god-king." Not sure why.

Malcolm wrote:
They call him God-Emperor on reddit, a reference to the God-emporer of Dune, Leto II:
Leto II Atreides, the God Emperor, has ruled the universe as a tyrant for 3,500 years after becoming a hybrid of human and giant sandworm in Children of Dune. The death of all other sandworms, and his control of the remaining supply of the all-important drug melange, has allowed him to keep civilization under his complete command. Leto has been physically transformed into a worm, retaining only his human face and arms, and though he is now seemingly immortal and invulnerable to harm, he is prone to instinct-driven bouts of violence when provoked to anger. As a result, his rule is one of religious awe and despotic fear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Emperor_of_Dune
OG1PjXs.jpg (257.45 KiB) Viewed 1517 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


DGA said:
Meanwhile there are PhDs who are basically sociopaths.  Some of these have held elected office, such as Betsy McCaughey.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, having an advanced degree does not preclude one from having a personality disorder of the first degree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Of course, no argument. Bernie would be much better than either of the candidates up there right now.

I'm just saying a degree isn't everything. i wouldn't trust PhDs who never had jobs outside academia to be good leaders.

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on what kind of PhD. For example, I think Thurman would make a dreadful politician.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
I just think the porn industry is disgusting, and does more harm than good for society.  So many women have been traumatized by husbands or boy friends addicted to sex & porn.  It has ruined millions of relationships, and broken up families. Let alone exploiting women and sex trafficing, and innocent children involved.   Do you want to support that ???

Malcolm wrote:
Alcohol addiction has also ruined millions of relationships and broken up families. When one lives in a free society, one accepts certain risks.

Child pornography is illegal by definition.

Apart from that, in general, every case brought to the courts has found that laws seeking to outlaw pornography are an attack on the First Amendment.

Quite frankly, if there is an amendment worthy of revision, it would be the Second.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thus far, no gender scholars have emerged who are sufficiently educated about and intimate with the primary and secondary literature of Vajrayāna to make any sustained critique of its systematic sexism

maybay said:
When my mind was enshrouded in ignorance
Critical thought attended every sound
When reality was revealed as my own nature
The nature of whatever appeared was reality itself

- Yogini Siddha Manibhadra, the happy housewife

Malcolm wrote:
I think you missed the part where Dowman observes the ratio of male to female siddhas in the 84 Mahāsiddhas is 20:1.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 7:39 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Bernie only has a bachelor's.
Sanders studied at Brooklyn College for a year in 1959–60[34] before transferring to the University of Chicago and graduating with a bachelor of arts degree in political science in 1964.[34] He has described himself as a mediocre college student because the classroom was "boring and irrelevant," while the community provided his most significant learning.[35]

Malcolm wrote:
I said it was as a preference for the job, not a requirement. Also Sanders is a great deal more intelligent than Trump.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 10:36 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
dreambow said:
Clinton is a corporate whore. She only takes  orders from Wall street and the corporations, the rest of the time its giving fake and appeasing smiles to the masses.  Some may prefer to be governed by politicians with at least a masters degree...let me say politicians who elbow their way to the top are nearly always shrewd operators. A stint at university does not teach you  deceptive games of one-upmanship or the wily ways of lobbying for the big end of town.

Malcolm wrote:
Guess that makes Trump a corporate gigolo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
... fundamentally serve male fantasies ...

PuerAzaelis said:
If that story was the worst you can come up with, you probably think Andrea Dworkin is Hitler or something.

Malcolm wrote:
One hilarious factoid is that Dworkin was instrumental in writing Canada's anti-pornography legislation, under which some of her own works were censored.

In terms of the Ghantapāda story, the point is that is representative of male-centered tropes which belie the oft touted gender egalitarianism of Vajrayāna.

Thus far, no gender scholars have emerged who are sufficiently educated about and intimate with the primary and secondary literature of Vajrayāna to make any sustained critique of its systematic sexism and replacement of women's voices with narratives which mainly serve to reinforce human female subordination to male whimsies, while transforming empowered women into dangerous Others in the form of witches (ḍākinīs) and hags (matrikas).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In general, my criticism of Trump here is in direct proportion to his bragging about the quality of his education. That being said, I prefer educated people for office, master's degree at least, when we are discussing high political offices.

Coëmgenu said:
Trump keeps saying he'll run the country like he runs his business... I'm surprised Clinton hasn't said: "You mean bankrupt four times?" He's basically giving her free material.

Malcolm wrote:
She did in the previous debates.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
A combination of genuine ignorance and conspiratorial thinking.

Malcolm wrote:
Trump is definitely an ignoramus. He only holds a Batchelor's degree from Wharton and has apparently never read a book since. At least Hill and Jill have advanced degrees. Johnson too only has a Batchelor's degree, he is also quite uneducated, as well as a real loon.

maybay said:
What a strange thing to say. I don't have any degree, doesn't mean I'm an ignoramus.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, my criticism of Trump here is in direct proportion to his bragging about the quality of his education. That being said, I prefer educated people for office, master's degree at least, when we are discussing high political offices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
I just wasted a two hours of my time, instead of working on a thesis, before class, slogging through leaked Clinton emails looking for something even vaguely controversial that would warrant these extremely common accusations of sedition, conspiracy, or criminal activity that Trump supporters are very passionate about directing towards Clinton.

There's been nothing so far.

These allegedly 'shocking' emails have proved a thoroughly bland disappointment. I want some of the drama I was promised.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is indeed very hard to understand why Trump and his brood are so outraged and fired up about all of this.

Johnny Dangerous said:
A combination of genuine ignorance and conspiratorial thinking.

Malcolm wrote:
Trump is definitely an ignoramus. He only holds a Batchelor's degree from Wharton and has apparently never read a book since. At least Hill and Jill have advanced degrees. Johnson too only has a Batchelor's degree, he is also quite uneducated, as well as a real loon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: New Book by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: The Guru Drinks Bourbon? (Nov 2016)
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Queequeg said:
Progressives need to be ready from Nov. 9, to put the heat to Clinton and keep it on her. Make her do the right thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
I just wasted a two hours of my time, instead of working on a thesis, before class, slogging through leaked Clinton emails looking for something even vaguely controversial that would warrant these extremely common accusations of sedition, conspiracy, or criminal activity that Trump supporters are very passionate about directing towards Clinton.

There's been nothing so far.

These allegedly 'shocking' emails have proved a thoroughly bland disappointment. I want some of the drama I was promised.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is indeed very hard to understand why Trump and his brood are so outraged and fired up about all of this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
amanitamusc said:
It was bound to happen hillery has started shrieking again.

The fingernails on the chalk board.The Horror

The Cicada said:
Such a nasty woman. Smh

Malcolm wrote:
Not nearly as nasty as that orange haired shitgibbon you support.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 21st, 2016 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
I thought you didn't need stories?

Malcolm wrote:
Not these kind.

maybay said:
Using is needing, and you use them.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "need."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
I thought you didn't need stories?

Malcolm wrote:
Not these kind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
and I wonder if it would be levelled against any male candidate.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if they were gay, because the bias against gay men in our culture is deeply rooted in sexism towards women.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Karinos said:
you know some Mahasiddhas had prostitute consorts or some were prostitutes themselves? and they are described as dakinis taking form of prostitute. Can you just for a second imagine that porn start can be dakini too or daka for that matter?

Malcolm wrote:
The reason that Darikpa, a prince, was ordered by his teacher Luipa to serve a courtesan (not really the same as a prostitute, and did not necessarily involve sex work) was to cut his pride.

This brings up another issue: the extent to which, in the West in particular, Vajrayāna tropes such as "Mahasiddhas had prostitute consorts or some were prostitutes themselves" serve male fantasies since women's voices in these scenarios are entirely absent, apart from narratives entirely written by men which generally portray women as treacherous and dangerous to the project of yoga, as in the tale of Ghantapāda:
There was a wicked whore in Pataliputra who told Devapala that she would be able to corrupt Ghantapa and ruin him. This vile woman had a virtuous and unspoiled virgin daughter who was commanded to seduce the yogin. As Ghantapa would meditate the young girl would bow and circumambulate him, begging for the opportunity to serve him and be his patron. He resisted but the girl was persistent. Ghantapa eventually moved to a small hut for the monsoon season and although the maiden followed him; he requested that his food only be brought by male servants.

For two weeks, only men tended to the yogin but on the fifteenth day the young woman told them to stay back and she went herself. When Ghantapa asked her to leave she complained that there were rain clouds in the sky and that she should wait until they pass. Once the clouds had passed it was getting dark and she cried saying that if she were to leave at night bandits would kill her. He told her that she had to sleep outside but as it got colder during the night she moved into the hut. Saying she was cold, she got closer and closer until eventually their bodies touched and thus the two came together in tantric union.
http://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=332

Here, we have a "wicked whore" (how do we know she was wicked? What is her story?) who has a "virtuous and unspoiled virgin daughter," (at this point, we really are in a patriarchal Catholic universe where the virginity of women has "moral," and thus economic value). We have the celibate yogin, who resists this delectable young women, until, out of his kindness, he lets her stay the night because he fears for her safety. "Naturally," he is unable to resist her charms, but manages in the story to foil the plot of the "vile woman" to subvert him with the erotic power of her "virtuous and unspoiled virgin daughter." And of course, story portrays Ghantapāda as a sexual naif who takes no responsibility for his own arousal, shifting it onto the dangerous Other.

Certainly, as I note above, the manuals for selecting female consorts differ very little from the descriptions of different kinds of women found in erotic manuals like the Kama Sūtra. But what are notably absent in such manuals are the graphic descriptions of men appropriate for each of these kinds of women, described as padminis, conches, and so on based on descriptions of women's breasts, vaginas, teeth, lips, eyes, and vaginas. At least the Kama Sūtra contains descriptions of types of men, their body types, the size of their penises and the kind of women for which those penises are best suited. Corresponding descriptions of male phenotypes and their genitalia are conspicuously absent from manuals which describe such women. Present however is the strong recommendation to inflame passion through the standard Indian tropes of kissing, pinching, biting, and so on, as well as "erotic conversation (aka "talk dirty to me")" and use of visual erotica as preliminaries for karmamudra practice.  Monks and single men, of course, who wished to engage in these practice, needed to use a different kind of "consort," i.e. their hands, while visualizing an imagined consort and imagining these behaviors (you may think I am kidding, but I am not.)

Indeed, we really have to understand these stories as patriarchal accounts which obscure womens' stories, which render them as dangerous, which fundamentally serve male fantasies through the way patriarchal society fetishizes women (virginity vs. prostitution; celibacy vs. being sexual active; treacherous women vs. honorable men and so on).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
MiphamFan said:
You want to find the probability that watching porn has a direct correlation with violence against women and children.

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps I was not clear. I was pointing toward an understanding of pornography itself as violence towards women and children (and perhaps men as well). For example, we do not consider rape a "sex" crime, we understand rape to be a violent crime.

So the true question before us is what distinguishes erotica (non-violent sexual entertainment conveyed through images and writing) from pornography (violence against women and children perpetrated through images and writing).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
shaunc said:
It seems to me that crucifying a few monks for watching a stick flick is a bit over the top.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Failure to really come to terms with the fact that we are sexual beings does seem to lead to us being as inconsiderate towards others as we are towards ourselves. And it may, and often does, make us downright cruel.

Malcolm wrote:
The issue around which everyone is dancing is simply this: violence against women and children, and the extent to which pornography can be directly implicated in perpetuating violence against women and children.

Of course, when and if we understand pornography as a species of violence against women and children, this changes the issue considerably.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:


Kunga Lhadzom said:
But, i still think the sex industry is getting away with it...and stricter punishment is the only way to end it.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, because authoritarian solutions are always so effective...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
Doesn't it concern you that your definition of porn would include a graphic sex education video in the category of pornography?

Malcolm wrote:
Quite obviously it is included in many people's definition, given that funding for sex education in the US has been drastically reduced because of concerns some people have about obscenity.

Sherab Dorje said:
What about modern tv shows that graphically depict sex acts? Literature which graphically depicts sex acts? Etc?
I have already answered to this issue a number of times.


Malcolm wrote:
No satisfactorily.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Poor student looking for approachable and serious Chöd teacher
Content:


BuddhaFollower said:
"Remind yourself of the defects of the pleasures of the senses, and avoid befriending ordinary people." [/i]

Reference: A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom

Malcolm wrote:
Since one becomes a bodhisattva to help ordinary people, and since one must befriend them into order to help them, this instruction cannot be held to be definitive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I support choice, not patriarchy. I don't think the solution is to try and control people's choices.

Sherab Dorje said:
Neither do I.  When somebody chooses to take monastic vows they should keep them, if they choose to not hold their vows they should not.  But then they should not consider themselves as having acted within the bounds of their vows.  They can't have their cake and eat it too.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, watching pornography is not major downfall. It is about the same level as drinking alcohol or killing animals, or watching combat for entertainment.


Sherab Dorje said:
Clearly, even you admit that patriarchy-free porn is possible,
Nope.  Not according to the "strict" definition of porn based on its etymology.

Malcolm wrote:
You think there sex work is impossible under matriarchy? I don't. As far as etymologies are concerned, language has two modes, diachronic and synchronic. Your definition is excessively synchronic and anachronistic.


Sherab Dorje said:
...so the problem is not porn nor the graphic depictions of sexual acts.
No.  For me porn is problematic.  Graphic representations of sexual acts, on the other hand, especially in a correct context, are not problematic.  A sexual education video depicting the act of sex is not pornography according to the "strict" definition.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

What about modern tv shows that graphically depict sex acts? Literature which graphically depicts sex acts? Etc?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[quote="dzogchungpa"]
So are you saying that, from this POV, the release of semen is necessary for the benefit that men derive from karmamudra?
[quote]

Yes. The bodhicitta descends, is held, reversed and than spread through the nāḍīs and cakras.

Jnānamudra practice is a mental exercise using the same principle with a visualized consort. Further, there is limited benefit of the partners involved are over 26 because of the degeneration of the physical body. The ideal age for this practice is between 16-26.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
The Cicada said:
I think it's inexcusable for the Clintons to deny Bill's mixed-race son.


Malcolm wrote:
People who read Infowars, etc., will believe anything  —— the poor, misinformed dunderheads that they are.

http://www.snopes.com/bill-clinton-illegitimate-son/

The Cicada said:
I suppose it takes highly advanced mental faculties to ignore the obvious.



Malcolm wrote:
Umm, dude, DNA testing dispensed with this allegation a long time ago. You're living in the past. Just accept that HRC is your next president, and move on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
DGA said:
good old Mahayana FTW.  It's good enough for me.

The Cicada said:
I'm glad we share a common ground.



Malcolm wrote:
I don't being a Trumpista is consistent with Mahāyāna, nor for that matter is being Clintonista. However, being a Sanderista is entirely consistent with Mahāyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
patriarchy-free porn

The Cicada said:
Would it have a plot line?

Malcolm wrote:
Who needs plots?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 20th, 2016 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The purpose of karmamudra is to take desire into the path. If you have no desire, there is no need to rely on the path of messengers. Furthermore, from a Dzogchen point of view, as stated in the Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Moon, for example, the practice is beneficial only for men.

dzogchungpa said:
That's interesting, is there some explanation there, or anywhere, of why it is only beneficial for men?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. The point is that female orgasm is not connected with the release of their own reproductive tissue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 19th, 2016 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Poor student looking for approachable and serious Chöd teacher
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Has your friend taken refuge?

Malcolm wrote:
Interest in the teachings is refuge enough. There is no need to get a groovy Tibetan name or have a snippet of hair cut from one's head.

Sherab Dorje said:
You don't even know why I am asking.  You just assumed a whole heap of BS.


Malcolm wrote:
Usually, when people ask "Has x taken refuge," they have the idea that someone needs a refuge vow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 19th, 2016 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
The problem is patriarchy, I agree, and porn is one way in which patriarchy is imposed on men and women.  So why are you supporting porn???

Malcolm wrote:
I support choice, not patriarchy. I don't think the solution is to try and control people's choices. Clearly, even you admit that patriarchy-free porn is possible, so the problem is not porn nor the graphic depictions of sexual acts.


Sherab Dorje said:
This also applies to Buddhist tantric statues and thangkha art, where the depictions of women show clear power differentials and patriarchal tropes, since they are forms and symbols largely determined by men.
I already answered to this point on page 1.

Malcolm wrote:
I just checked the whole thread. I did not see you address this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 19th, 2016 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
gzodzilpa said:
To me, the rather conservative monastic view seems more like a romanticized fantasy decoupled from the history and practical function of tantra. I believe it was suggested that it is propaganda to keep monks being monks?

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps. All I can tell is you what I have been taught by my teachers, and what Longchenpa and others say about the practice in various manuals.

The purpose of karmamudra is to take desire into the path. If you have no desire, there is no need to rely on the path of messengers. Furthermore, from a Dzogchen point of view, as stated in the Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Moon, for example, the practice is beneficial only for men.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 19th, 2016 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Poor student looking for approachable and serious Chöd teacher
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Has your friend taken refuge?

Malcolm wrote:
Interest in the teachings is refuge enough. There is no need to get a groovy Tibetan name or have a snippet of hair cut from one's head.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 19th, 2016 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
Somebody does not have to be a prostitute, to act like a prostitute.  Lots and lots of women are objectified and abused in relationships too.

Malcolm wrote:
How about women-made hardcore lesbian porn?

The reason why women are subject to abuse in the porn industry is because of patriarchal attitudes towards women worldwide, not because depictions of sex acts, even graphic depictions of sexual acts, are intrinsically immoral.

The problem is not porn, the problem is patriarchy. This also applies to Buddhist tantric statues and thangkha art, where the depictions of women show clear power differentials and patriarchal tropes, since they are forms and symbols largely determined by men. This applies equally to the objectification of women in manuals on how to choose consorts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 19th, 2016 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This definition of the 5th Samaya, provided below, is not certain. I for one contest it as translated completely.

Gyurme Kundrol said:
Id love to hear your thoughts on which parts of this you think are mistranslated or incompletely translated and how a practitioner could interpret it in a different light. I couldnt argue the point either way since I dont know Tibetan but I am genuinely interested since I know translation issues cause a lot of problems in general for understanding certain aspects of Dharma.

Are there other commentaries on the meaning of Tantric vows and how they are to be upheld that you would recommend?

Malcolm wrote:
For one thing, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen and the Sakya school in general complete rejects this interpretation. The fifth samaya is simply an indication that one should abandon not relative and ultimate bodhicitta. The idea that it includes semen is also a problem, since the word in Tibetan is khu ba, and depending on context, it wither refers merely to the reproductive seed, or the precursor substances which is divided into reproductive seed and ojas (mdangs). ChNN, in his Birth, Life and Death, states unequivocally, that the reproductive seed is a complete waste product of the body and should be released. According to him, attempts to conserve can lead to sexual dysfunction, stones, and so on. His point of view is supported in various Ayurveda and Tibetan medicine, as well as cycles such as the Khandro Nyinthig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 19th, 2016 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This definition of the 5th Samaya, provided below, is not certain. I for one contest it as translated completely.

Gyurme Kundrol said:
When the subject of sex comes up it seems most practitioners lose their common sense.

Instead of engaging in the categorization and definition of pornography as better or worse, good or bad, pure or vile, we should be engaging in pure view generally. Instead of judging a monk for masturbation we should judge ourselves for not having pure view towards our Vajra brothers and sisters. Instead of thinking some sex and some porn is fine but others is not we should seek to view all phenomena as the innately pure and empty display of the energies of our awareness. Instead of engaging in mental gymnastics to rationalize our attachment to sex we should remember the four noble truths and the fact that even small attachments will lead to small suffering, so needless to say great attachment will lead to great suffering.

Attachment leading to suffering doesnt stop just because we are attached to something we like a lot. In fact it only makes things worse. Even a house holder can overcome sexual desire while fulfilling martial duties.

Vajrayana and Tantra in general gives us the tools to deal with all these things. Sexual desire can be overcome, and saying "Im a householder" or "society is full of sex" or "this is the degenerate age" is just making excuses. You are either serious about liberation or you are not. You either want freedom or you do not. If you are serious then you will work with these energies and seek to no longer let them be your master and delude you. If not... then you will allow certain attachments to flourish and as a result will keep suffering in a state of delusion and probably stay in Samsara at least for a little while longer.

Ultimately if you are not willing to give up sexual desire you should never take Vajrayana vows. Refuge and Bodhisattva vows are fine, but Tantric vows require you to seek mastery over these energies and attachments and failure to do this is breaking your Samaya and you will suffer as a result of that.
"The fifth (root downfall) is, with a desirous mind and at an inappropriate time, intentionally emitting semen, thus forsaking the bodhicitta generated for sentient beings. The appropriate times to allow seminal fluid to leave the body are during the secret empowerment as an offering to the deities, when increasing the family line of ancestral heritage, and when making special pills or other medicines. Otherwise and especially out of desire, to ignore the words of honor and training and emit semen for ones own personal satisfaction outside the context of higher anuyoga practice constitutes the downfall. This also includes the abandonment of bodhicitta for any sentient being, because bodhicitta and the essential fluid are seen as one on the level of generation stage practice (of inner tantra). If aspirational bodhicitta is abandoned, practical bodhicitta is automatically forsaken.

-Perfect Conduct, Ascertaining the Three Vows - Commentary by Dudjom Rinpoche"
Overall its pretty straightfoward. Anyone holding Vajrayana vows should not engage these activities. Those who do not, can do as they like but the Buddha is clear that attachment leads to suffering. From an ultimate perspective its made clear all phenomena are primordially pure displays of luminous emptiness. So we should practice at the highest level we are capable of and should seek to stay committed to our vows. These vows we take also include pure view towards our Vajra brothers and sisters, which means not judging their conduct even if it is wrong and even if it occurs in a space we consider sacred.

There are also ways to go about calling someone out for breaking their Samaya and so forth, I dont recall where I read about it though and it has to be approached in a certain way. Certainly a mind of compassion is required since judging and pointing fingers and making lots of "you" statements wont do any good. Looking down on those who we share lineage with doesnt help us at all. And until our own minds are free from defilement we really shouldnt even attempt to correct others but should just keep working on ourselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 19th, 2016 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
'ccept that the correct definition is:  the graphic depiction (-graphy) of the activities of prostitutes (porno).

dzogchungpa said:
Um, have you ever looked at the "amateur" section of a porn site? I guarantee you a lot of people would consider a lot of that pornography, even though there are often no prostitutes involved. Furthermore, technically, the people involved in professional porn are not engaging in prostitution either, otherwise it would be illegal, at least in the States.

Malcolm wrote:
The neopuritan Buddhists have a hard time with neolibertines like myself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
That's pretty telling, I would say.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a lot of depictions of sexual intercourse on television these days. Is that porn?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 8:15 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
So what were you doing watching the entrance of a strip club?

krodha said:
I used to get paid to watch the entrance of a strip club. We never got any monks.

Sherab Dorje said:
Maybe they were moonlighting as "Johns"?

Malcolm wrote:
No, they were five Korean Monks who had been staying at the Cambridge Zendo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 9:07 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Malcolm, in all seriousness, shouldn't you be out smashing the patriarchy or something?


Malcolm wrote:
Baby steps...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
In the presence of desire we feel loaded.


Malcolm wrote:
You might, I don't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Wayfarer said:
It isn't a matter about 'being angry with monks'. It's a matter of principle - pornography is an insidious evil in today's world, it is available to anyone with an internet device, panders to the basest cravings, and is strongly habit-forming. Millions of people are finding that when they're habituated to pornography, they can no longer experience normal intimacy with their loved one. Millions of boys are being 'educated' about sexuality via instantly-available, always-on pornography, which they access via the same device they have been given for schoolwork. It is a moral calamity of the highest order.

And besides, it is like sulphuric acid to any kind of sadhana; it's spraying your garden bed with weed-killer.

Malcolm wrote:
Pornography is an ill-defined word. What exactly is porn? Naked Lunch? Lolita? DH Lawrence? The definition of pornography is closely tied to obscenity. We all know it is very difficult to define obscenity, and that the more strict obscenity laws are, the more pervasive and hidden rape culture is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
Well I don't think it's so easy to understand monks or the administrations they inhabit. I wish I did.

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty easy to find out. Go to Thailand, ordain for a month.

maybay said:
Somehow I don't think it's that easy.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure it is, you are a smart person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
I disagree. We are speaking of afflictions. Not my afflictions or your afflictions, just afflictions as they manifest in the world. That is worth understanding, and it is established practice.

Malcolm wrote:
It is easy to understand why monks watch porn. It is not rocket science.

maybay said:
Well I don't think it's so easy to understand monks or the administrations they inhabit. I wish I did.

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty easy to find out. Go to Thailand, ordain for a month.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Jeff H said:
I disagree. To say "So what?" does indeed deny the importance of the subject. It means, "this thing doesn't matter and I don't care".

Malcolm wrote:
Precisely, it does not matter and no one should care. Since you like Śantideva, he also recommends that when one cannot speak well of another, one should remain like a piece of wood. Speaking of others afflictions, especially in abstract, is pointless.

maybay said:
I disagree. We are speaking of afflictions. Not my afflictions or your afflictions, just afflictions as they manifest in the world. That is worth understanding, and it is established practice.

Malcolm wrote:
It is easy to understand why monks watch porn. It is not rocket science.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Unknown said:
While stitching a cut on the hand of a 75 year old farmer, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually the topic got around to Donald Trump and his role as the Republican Nominee for President.
The old farmer said, " Well, as I see it, Donald Trump is like a 'Post Tortoise'.''
Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a 'post tortoise' was.
The old farmer said, "When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a tortoise balanced on top, that's a post tortoise."
The old farmer saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain. "You know he didn't get up there by himself, he doesn't belong up there, he doesn't know what to do while he's up there, he's elevated beyond his ability to function, and you just wonder what kind of dumb ass put him up there to begin with."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Jeff H said:
I disagree. To say "So what?" does indeed deny the importance of the subject. It means, "this thing doesn't matter and I don't care".

Malcolm wrote:
Precisely, it does not matter and no one should care. Since you like Śantideva, he also recommends that when one cannot speak well of another, one should remain like a piece of wood. Speaking of others afflictions, especially in abstract, is pointless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
Do you think those monks had some part to play in your decision not to return?


Malcolm wrote:
None whatsoever. In fact, I knew people who worked in that club, and sometimes we would go there to have a drink. But strip clubs always made me uncomfortable for the simple reason that the women who work in them in general despise the clientele. This is what caused me to cease frequenting such places.

maybay said:
Sounds like they kicked you out

Malcolm wrote:
No, in fact I was friends with a number of the dancers, and we frequently would go out after the club closed to eat in China Town. But I have to tell you, looking at a friend's genitals in close quarters in a dingy club can be a bit discomfiting, and is probably the least erotic experience one can have.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:


Jeff H said:
“So what?” is a statement of dismissal...

Malcolm wrote:
of peoples' self-righteous indignation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 18th, 2016 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
maybay said:
So what were you doing watching the entrance of a strip club?

Malcolm wrote:
I was myself going into that strip club...in 1993. I am pretty certain that was the last time I ever visited a strip club.

maybay said:
Do you think those monks had some part to play in your decision not to return?


Malcolm wrote:
None whatsoever. In fact, I knew people who worked in that club, and sometimes we would go there to have a drink. But strip clubs always made me uncomfortable for the simple reason that the women who work in them in general despise the clientele. This is what caused me to cease frequenting such places.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Jeff H said:
But the point of becoming a Buddhist renunciate is very specifically to follow a path that seeks reversal of normal society.

Malcolm wrote:
And getting outraged at the alleged behavior of some monks is a complete waste of time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
If you, of all people, don't know the answer to that, then I am not going to waste my time replying.

Malcolm wrote:
When there are major problems in the world which are more in need of our attention, I know that I have better things to do than be outraged by some people's petty afflicted behavior.

maybay said:
Major problems have small beginnings. What exactly am I supposed to do about the bombing of Aleppo? These 'petty' afflictive emotions as you put it are, in contrast, quite workable.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, please by all means work on your own petty afflictions. However, you can no more work on the petty afflictions of others than you can stop Assad from murdering children in Aleppo. Thus, my observation that kirt's stated outrage at the inconsequential behavior of some monks was misplaced


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I've seen monks coming out of strip clubs. So what?

maybay said:
So what were you doing watching the entrance of a strip club?

Malcolm wrote:
I was myself going into that strip club...in 1993. I am pretty certain that was the last time I ever visited a strip club.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I've seen monks coming out of strip clubs. So what?
If you, of all people, don't know the answer to that, then I am not going to waste my time replying.

Malcolm wrote:
When there are major problems in the world which are more in need of our attention, I know that I have better things to do than be outraged by some people's petty afflicted behavior.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
And yes, there are more important things happening out there in the world, but wtf does that even mean?  That vows count for nothing?  That practice counts for nothing because out there in the real world all hell is breaking loose?  Actually I believe that in the degenerate age, vows and wholesome behaviour are even MORE important.  Of course it is more difficult to maintain vows in the degenerate age, but that does not mean we just jump into the fray, does it?

Malcolm wrote:
It means that this outrage being expressed because some monks were watching porn is all out of proportion to real problems in the world.

I've seen monks coming out of strip clubs. So what?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Honestly, who cares? Children being killed by bombs in Aleppo and Yemen is far more important. The wholesale destruction of the biosphere by capitalism is far more important. A few people watching people f%^king and a few people f%^king in a monastery is of absolutely no importance at all by comparison. Anyway, this the age of five degenerations. We cannot have high expectations.

maybay said:
How is it that hatred, bombs in Aleppo, and ignorance, environmental destruction, are important, but not desire? The three condition each other. I think the Russian temperament that results in Aleppo is very closely linked to their perception of sexuality, as received through orthodox Christian monasticism.

Malcolm wrote:
Desire is quite permissible for bodhisattvas, hatred never is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 11:16 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are far more important things than vows.

Honestly, who cares? Children being killed by bombs in Aleppo and Yemen is far more important. The wholesale destruction of the biosphere by capitalism is far more important. A few people watching people f%^king and a few people f%^king in a monastery is of absolutely no importance at all by comparison. Anyway, this the age of five degenerations. We cannot have high expectations.

shaunc said:
Malcom. That is the most sensible statement yet.
There's probably not too many men on this forum, or anywhere for that matter that haven't had sex or watched a porn movie. Expecting people to fight against mother nature is a pretty big ask.
This isn't a scandal. There's no children involved. It's just small minded gossip.

kirtu said:
Really?  It's small minded gossip to keep ones vows at a monastery during a retreat?  And these were full-time renunciates.

I agree that there are more important things in order to directly reduce short term suffering though and Malcolm highlights two of them.  Unfortunately the US and Russia and other nations spread their poison of weapons throughout the world.  People have been advocating that weapons sales from the West stop for many decades.  This has fallen on deaf ears.  Even after German tracked vehicles sold to Turkey were used to torture and kill PKK members (terrorists to the Turkish government and majority Turks), even after this hit front page newspapers decades ago, weapons were still sold.

Even now the US fails to lead on climate change forcing some of the rest of the world to initiate necessary but much too belated changes wrt energy production and efficiency and the transformation necessary to reign in mindless farming.  Still no one has significantly raised other pressing environmental issues at a high enough level.

Powerful people will always fail to lead on pressing issues until it is too late.  Wars will consume mankind.  People who are supposed to be representatives of Shakyamuni Buddha should at least keep their vows purely it shouldn't take a ngakpa, even a highly revered one, to remind them of that.

kirt


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We cannot keep other people's vows. And as I said, there are more important things of concern.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
So instead of discussing the crux of the issue we are just going to indulge in pointless gossip?

Malcolm wrote:
The issue being what, monks like to watch porn? Everyone knows this.

kirtu said:
The issue being that the renunciates should not be indulging in porn.  The other issue would have been that the ngakpa practitioners would also have been bared from indulging in porn (and I was shocked about the sex on premises point as well).

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
Honestly, who cares? Children being killed by bombs in Aleppo and Yemen is far more important. The wholesale destruction of the biosphere by capitalism is far more important. A few people watching people f%^king and a few people f%^king in a monastery is of absolutely no importance at all by comparison. Anyway, this the age of five degenerations. We cannot have high expectations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: King Ajatasatru Bathed in Troughs of Butter and Sandal Wood
Content:
Zhen Li said:
I am not sure where this appears outside of the Tibetan Vinaya Ksudraka, but in Buton's History of Indian and Tibetan Buddhism he relates how Mahakasyapa knew that when Ajatasatru heared of the Buddha's death he would surely die unless he was placed into first seven troughs of fresh butter and then a trough of sandal wood. This happens, the Bramin Varsaka acts as Kasyapa instructed him to, and the king indeed recovers.

I thought this was very strange. Does anyone have any insight into what is going on here? Perhaps a commentary in Tibetan says something. Obermiller cites Vinayaksudraka Kg. HDUL. XI. 290-1.

Thanks


Malcolm wrote:
Fresh butter and sandalwood are both remedies for pitta illnesses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 1:26 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
So instead of discussing the crux of the issue we are just going to indulge in pointless gossip?

Malcolm wrote:
The issue being what, monks like to watch porn? Everyone knows this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Well, at least I know how to say 'porn' in Tibetan now.

BTW, does anyone have a guess about where the story took place?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it would either have to be Rigdzin Ling, Vajrayāna Foundation or Tashi Choling.

dzogchungpa said:
Tashi Choling is in Oregon and i don't think RL could be described as being "located at the bottom of a pretty meadow".

Malcolm wrote:
Process of exclusion then...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 17th, 2016 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: “You Can’t Watch Pornos in the Monastery”: Tibetan Tantra, Imagined Pleasure, and the Virtuality of Desire
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Well, at least I know how to say 'porn' in Tibetan now.

BTW, does anyone have a guess about where the story took place?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it would either have to be Rigdzin Ling, Vajrayāna Foundation or Tashi Choling.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2016 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, but we do have Red Hats, and they are working themselves up into a frenzy. When Trump loses the election, I predict they will lash out with unprecedented violence.

treehuggingoctopus said:
That is very likely.

Malcolm wrote:
It is almost certain:
“If she’s in office, I hope we can start a coup. She should be in prison or shot. That’s how I feel about it,” Dan Bowman, a 50-year-old contractor, said of Hillary Clinton, the Democratic nominee. “We’re going to have a revolution and take them out of office if that’s what it takes. There’s going to be a lot of bloodshed. But that’s what it’s going to take. . . . I would do whatever I can for my country.”
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2016/10/15/donald-trump-warnings-conspiracy-rig-election-are-stoking-anger-among-his-followers/LcCY6e0QOcfH8VdeK9UdsM/story.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2016 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Demonic Possession in Buddhism
Content:


Lhasa said:
I'm trying to rid my body of shaktipat/kundalini/shiva type introjects.

Malcolm wrote:
\

Practice yantra or trulkhor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2016 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Nemo said:
The pieces are already in place for a war with Russia.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just FUD being propagated by Russian ultranationalists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2016 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Thing is, you do not have brownshirts marching across your capital. We do. And some people at the helm seem suddenly very eager to repeat the Great War.

Malcolm wrote:
No, but we do have Red Hats, and they are working themselves up into a frenzy. When Trump loses the election, I predict they will lash out with unprecedented violence.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2016 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
The whole POTUS business is making me feel cold and indifferent now.

Malcolm wrote:
You would feel a whole lot less indifferent if Trump won.

treehuggingoctopus said:
I am not sure if you got my point. I did not say I do not care. I am hoping that Trump will not get the presidential chair. It is just that the (increasingly) staggering amount of bad things happening daily dulls the mind. You Yankees may or may not know the feeling. Europe has always been a powder keg, and right now everyone is playing with fire again.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is why we split Europe and perpetrated ethnic cleansing, genocide and human trafficking in the Americas —— not enough trees or land, too many damn kings, too many paupers, too many wars, and too many priests.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2016 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Modern conservatives are Whigs, that's why they look to Burke for inspiration. Burke himself was a Whig.

19th century conservatives didn't see themselves as following Burke. The Tories still opposed the Corn Laws until Peel.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem here, MF, is that there is no unified conservative movement worldwide. So you keep on talking about Whigs and Tories, these things do not apply to the US.

MiphamFan said:
Nonetheless, British and American political thought have been the greatest mutual influences on one another ever since American Independence. I mean, the very fact that you yourself pointed out that American conservatives claim to follow Burke testifies to this.

Malcolm wrote:
Interestingly, while Burke opposed the French Revolution, he was a supporter of American Independence.


MiphamFan said:
I'm also not saying that the only alternative to Whiggism is Toryism/Conservatism; almost every other view of history humanity has developed, from China to India to Iceland does not view history as teleologically leading to greater "progress". I am just saying that modern "conservatism" is mainly Whiggish.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, most regimes in History regarded themselves as the apex of progress.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2016 at 7:26 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
dreambow said:
"That is because it is ancient news" The media didn't touch it then or now. Is the media gagged, are most journalists  intimidated? Do the media moguls who pay editors and  journalists salaries own them? It appears so.

Malcolm wrote:
It is because everyone understands that money = power.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 16th, 2016 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Demonic Possession in Buddhism
Content:
Lhasa said:
Would a 'thun-rwa', Tibetan shaman's rattle, be helpful in clearing these kinds of energies, beings?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on whose doing the rattling.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Modern conservatives are Whigs, that's why they look to Burke for inspiration. Burke himself was a Whig.

19th century conservatives didn't see themselves as following Burke. The Tories still opposed the Corn Laws until Peel.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem here, MF, is that there is no unified conservative movement worldwide. So you keep on talking about Whigs and Tories, these things do not apply to the US.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
MiphamFan said:
I'm not an alt-righter, where did I ever say I was?

All I said was their criticism (Mencius Moldbug among others) of modern conservatism is justified. Conservatism never conserves anything. I have read NRx articles before, I don't really follow alt-right sites like Breitbart.

Malcolm wrote:
Conservatism has its roots in the writings of Burke, among others, and embraced free trade and so on nearly from its inception.

Buckley aptly defines American Conservative principles here:
It is the job of centralized government (in peacetime) to protect its citizens’ lives, liberty and property. All other activities of government tend to diminish freedom and hamper progress. The growth of government (the dominant social feature of this century) must be fought relentlessly. In this great social conflict of the era, we are, without reservations, on the libertarian side.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/content/magazines-credenda


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Ayn Rand Sucks - Split from POTUS Part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As I said, is there are philosophy here to counter?

AlexMcLeod said:
Wouldn't that be classical Stoicism?


Malcolm wrote:
Not even remotely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
MiphamFan said:
19th century Tories were pro-conserving the environment, anti-foreign intervention, anti-privatization. Laissez faire economics, "free" markets, deregulation, etc were Whiggish policies. It was a Whiggish/Liberal government who started the Opium Wars in China.

In the US even Theodore Roosevelt's Republicans were against destruction of nature by market forces.

Where is that conservatism now?

Modern conservatives just pay lip service to conserving "social values" while being completely Whiggish on everything else.

Malcolm wrote:
Alt-right = fascism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Their criticism of conservatism as useless at conserving anything (besides the interests of elites), basically being another branch of liberalism, is justified.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't think so. They are just immature john birchers.

They are like political script kiddies; just as script kiddies don' really know anything about computer programming, the Alt-right crew are for the most part uneducated, knowing nothing of history, law and economics.

For example:
During the speech at a rally in West Palm Beach, FL, Trump... also claimed that Clinton “meets in secret with international banks to plot the destruction of U.S. sovereignty in order to enrich these global financial powers” and that the election may be “in fact controlled by a small handful of global special interests rigging the system.”
Anyone who believes this is an idiot. This is just a dog whistle to those fools who still believe in the Protocols of Zion, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 8:59 PM
Title: Re: Ayn Rand Sucks - Split from POTUS Part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As I said, is there are philosophy here to counter?

Queequeg said:
I've never been able to figure that out. I can't tell if you're right or I'm just dense. There's a sizable community who take this seriously. I'm hesitant to conclude all those people are stupid and tend to presume I'm missing something.

What I know is that ass holes tend to refer to Ayn Rand to suggest that their behavior is principled.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a sizable community that takes this seriously too:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 8:54 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
MiphamFan said:
They are an offshoot of and dumbing down of NRx, Neoreaction; the mainstream media completely neglected this connection.

Reactionaries don't see themselves as conservatives, they see conservatism as weak. And really they are quite justified on that, what have Republicans in the US or Conservatives in the UK conserved over the last century?

Malcolm wrote:
Justified in what? Racism and sexism? The alt-right crew are idiots. BTW, I am quite aware of the rebranding of NRx, etc., etc., as the alt-right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Nemo said:
Alt right is not conservative though...

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, they despise conservatives for not being racist enough.

The Cicada said:
I think it's inexcusable for the Clintons to deny Bill's mixed-race son.


Malcolm wrote:
People who read Infowars, etc., will believe anything  —— the poor, misinformed dunderheads that they are.

http://www.snopes.com/bill-clinton-illegitimate-son/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Nemo said:
Can't wait for the season finale of America November 8th.

treehuggingoctopus said:
The whole POTUS business is making me feel cold and indifferent now.

Malcolm wrote:
You would feel a whole lot less indifferent if Trump won.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
dreambow said:
The media is asleep at the wheel....not impartial, not addressing any of the real issues. I was reading WikiLeaks and one of the latest releases about Obama picking the key players in his cabinet from the list given to him by Citibank. Lets face it the power behind the throne appears to be Wall Street and other big players. Of course no one is really shocked by this revelation but the media refuses to touch it, let alone tackle it.

Malcolm wrote:
That is because it is ancient news.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 9:57 AM
Title: Re: Ayn Rand Sucks - Split from POTUS Part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As I said, is there are philosophy here to counter?

undefineable said:
Any serious counter-arguments to Rand's philosophy?

Malcolm wrote:
Is there a philosophy to counter?

Queequeg said:
Fwiw.

Wikipedia:
Objectivism is a philosophical system developed by Russian American writer Ayn Rand (1905–1982). Rand first expressed Objectivism in her fiction, most notably The Fountainhead (1943) and Atlas Shrugged (1957), and later in nonfiction essays and books. Leonard Peikoff, a professional philosopher and Rand's designated intellectual heir, later gave it a more formal structure. Peikoff characterizes Objectivism as a "closed system" that is not subject to change.

Objectivism's central tenets are that reality exists independently of consciousness, that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive logic, that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness (rational self-interest), that the only social system consistent with this morality is one that displays full respect for individual rights embodied in laissez-faire capitalism, and that the role of art in human life is to transform humans' metaphysical ideas by selective reproduction of reality into a physical form—a work of art—that one can comprehend and to which one can respond emotionally.

Academic philosophers have mostly ignored or rejected Rand's philosophy. Nonetheless, Objectivism has been a significant influence among libertarians and American conservatives. The Objectivist movement, which Rand founded, attempts to spread her ideas to the public and in academic settings.
More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29?wprov=sfla1


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: Ayn Rand Sucks - Split from POTUS Part 3
Content:
undefineable said:
Any serious counter-arguments to Rand's philosophy?

Malcolm wrote:
Is there a philosophy to counter?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Nemo said:
Alt right is not conservative though...

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, they despise conservatives for not being racist enough.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 15th, 2016 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Materialists in hiding
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
By all means continue to denigrate and dismiss atheists. Continue to preach against them. You have listed a couple of celebrities as being normative for all atheists. Richard Dawkins isn't the atheist pope. He gets press because he is contrarian and provoking.

maybay said:
He writes influential books, which many people buy. Can you name an atheist currently more influential than Dawkins?

Malcolm wrote:
Marx.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 14th, 2016 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
...part of which can be laid at the feet of the mealy-mouthed, corporate Democrats and their complete selling out and ridicule of a big chunk of poor, white rural people.

Malcolm wrote:
Trump's base is the Tea Party, the racist backlash that arose from the election of a African-American president, whose constituency is primarily white people, often found in rural and peri-urban areas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 14th, 2016 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Apology to the Naga Realm
Content:
pemachophel said:
Yeah, at first I thought Malcolm's answer was correct in terms of how this mistake crept in. One of the translator's typed in the Tibetan wrong. However, when I typed in the correct Tibetan into an on-line Tib-Eng dictionary yesterday, I also got "musk." So lu-tsi may be a synonym for la-tsi (unless the dictionary is wrong, which also could be). In this case, one needed to know that the lu tsi in the text was not a compound term, but that lu (klu) was an adjective (or possessive).

Malcolm wrote:
Hi.

klu rtsi (ཀླུ་རྩི) is definitely not a synonym for gla rtsi (གླ་རྩི). Synonyms for musk included སྤྲུལ་དུག, poison for snakes; སྦྲུལ་སྐྲག་བྱེད, agent that terrifies snakes. In this case the entry is not in a Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary, but just an erroneous entry in the Valby dictionary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 14th, 2016 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


The Cicada said:
Not true.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, absolutely. White nationalism, racism, and xenophobia have no place in Mahāyāna.

The Cicada said:
And regard for our nation, towards our families and communities a willingness to face harsh truth squarely? Mahāyāna, as known to Malcolm, forbids these things?


Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna has no place for disregard of and enmity towards other nations, families and communities, the very things the so-called "Alt-right" thrives upon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 14th, 2016 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
DGA said:
alt-right jingoism are antithetical to Mahayana.

The Cicada said:
Not true.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, absolutely. White nationalism, racism, and xenophobia have no place in Mahāyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 14th, 2016 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Ayn Rand Sucks - Split from POTUS Part 3
Content:


Queequeg said:
Goddamn I want to kick someone in the nuts.

Malcolm wrote:
John Galt, perhaps?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 14th, 2016 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Materialists in hiding
Content:
maybay said:
The imputation of self... plays no part in the causal samsaric flow.

Malcolm wrote:
The imputation of a self is the basis and sustainer of samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


DGA said:
PS Ayn Rand sucks and Ryan doesn't know this, the little twerp.

Queequeg said:
Can we talk about how utterly awful Ayn Rand is?
Infuriating that people wear the fact that they have slogged through Atlas Shrugged like a badge of honor. Like they had finished Moby Dick or Ulysses. I wonder if they realize the brain damage they caused themselves. When they praise Ayn Rand I am convinced of the dementia.

Who is John Galt? Ugh.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, reading Ayn Rand is the literary equivalent of sniffing glue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 7:39 PM
Title: Re: Apology to the Naga Realm
Content:
Soma999 said:
Thank you everyone for your input.

Still, if an analysis on how this word came to be translated as musk and why it's wrong would be interesting for me.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a mistake present in an electronic dictionary, where someone apparently entered an incorrect spelling of gla rtsi (musk), or were incorrectly informed by a Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 9:59 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
MiphamFan said:
I wouldn't vote for anyone even if I could. I would try to prepare a bunker though.

Malcolm wrote:
That is a bit paranoid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 9:26 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
MiphamFan said:
I have to say I am much more frightened of Clinton provoking a nuclear war with Russia than Trump.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/12/politics/us-russia-tensions-cold-war/index.html


Malcolm wrote:
Good thing you ca't vote in US elections then, since this is just FUD.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Alexander Gardner on "Rime"--
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I thought that the Rime movement was an attempt to preserve (obscure) practices from (obscure) lineages that were in danger of being lost.


Malcolm wrote:
The activities of Dzogchen masters is vast.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Alexander Gardner on "Rime"--
Content:
conebeckham said:
LOL.  That's actually fairly accurate.

It certainly doesn't mean mixing up practices from a variety of lineages.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course not. Rime masters practice Dzogchen themselves, and teach the lineages that they came from, respecting their integrity.

conebeckham said:
,...and espouse "Shentong" as the pinnacle "philosophical view."
LOL.



Malcolm wrote:
Well some Kongtrul influenced Dzogchen masters do, others, such as Jigme Lingpa espouse Tsongkapa's formulation of Madhyamaka as the best; still others, such as Mipham, follow Gorampa for the main part.

But in Dzogchen, the two truths do not exist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Alexander Gardner on "Rime"--
Content:
conebeckham said:
Pretty good article about what "Rime" means, and doesn't mean, in the Fall 2016 issue of Buddhadharma.   Tried to find it online, as I don't necessarily support "Buddhist Magazine" culture, but I read it and thought it was worthwhile.

Mr. Gardner is associated with the "Treasury of Lives" website, by the way.


Malcolm wrote:
Rime just means people who practice Dzogchen who started in Kagyu, Sakya or Gelug.

conebeckham said:
LOL.  That's actually fairly accurate.

It certainly doesn't mean mixing up practices from a variety of lineages.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course not. Rime masters practice Dzogchen themselves, and teach the lineages that they came from, respecting their integrity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


Queequeg said:
"Eat shit."

That's how I'm going to greet people until election day.

Malcolm wrote:
I know how you feel. Frankly, however, the Republicans have proven so incompetent, feckless, and shorn of any semblance of decency, they should never, ever be allowed to have political power in the US ever again.

Queequeg said:
Look, man. I'm giving you a hard time. I'm a NYer and bitching is our birthright.

But you're right...

Recovery from the Bern... I'm at the stage of acceptance.

This is why I am going to *gulp* vote for Clinton:

I don't want my daughter growing up in a world where the President is such an unapologetic pig. She's a toddler, but her first memories of the President of the United States should not be some guy who brags about molesting women. I worry about her growing up and encountering ass holes like him. As a consolation, she grows up seeing a woman as President.

I reserve the right to hate on her as soon as the election is called for her... probably around 9 pm Eastern.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, I voted for President Sanders. He is my president. Clinton is a placeholder.

I do however think that her real sins have been covered over by media-generated distortions. For example, Yemen, not Benghazi, is a real sin of Secretary Clinton.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: Materialists in hiding
Content:
binocular said:
These are nonsensical questions.
They are like asking "Does x see x? Does x have x?"

maybay said:
Davidbrainerd said that the 'you' can be found. So its a fair to ask how this might happen. SD knows it can't be answered. This just proves that the self is imagined. It is not a dependently arisen phenomena. When you apprehend a self, you are not seeing as it is. You are making a false imputation.

boda said:
You say that the self is not a dependently arisen phenomena. If it's not dependently arisen then it must be independently arisen. How, pray tell, is that possible? An immortal soul?

Malcolm wrote:
It's just a dependent designation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Unknown said:
Dear Donald,

"Thank you for your letter and for your enclosures. I have given some thought to our recent correspondence. It is always difficult to decide on how to respond to people whose ethos is so alien and, in fact, repellent to one’s own. It is not that I take exception to the general points made by you but that every ounce of my energy has been devoted to an active opposition to cruel bigotry, compulsive violence, and the sadistic persecution which has characterised the philosophy and practice of Trumpism.

"I feel obliged to say that the emotional universes we inhabit are so distinct, and in deepest ways opposed, that nothing fruitful or sincere could ever emerge from association between us.

"I should like you to understand the intensity of this conviction on my part. It is not out of any attempt to be rude that I say this but because of all that I value in human experience and human achievement.

"Yours sincerely,
Bertrand Russel"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Alexander Gardner on "Rime"--
Content:
conebeckham said:
Pretty good article about what "Rime" means, and doesn't mean, in the Fall 2016 issue of Buddhadharma.   Tried to find it online, as I don't necessarily support "Buddhist Magazine" culture, but I read it and thought it was worthwhile.

Mr. Gardner is associated with the "Treasury of Lives" website, by the way.


Malcolm wrote:
Rime just means people who practice Dzogchen who started in Kagyu, Sakya or Gelug.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You can talk all you want about how terrible she is, but that really is not the point. Trump cannot be allowed anywhere near the White House. Just bite down on the turd sandwich, chew and swallow.

Queequeg said:
"Eat shit."

That's how I'm going to greet people until election day.

Malcolm wrote:
I know how you feel. Frankly, however, the Republicans have proven so incompetent, feckless, and shorn of any semblance of decency, they should never, ever be allowed to have political power in the US ever again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Queequeg said:
...she has established that she has terrible judgment.


Malcolm wrote:
And so has every president that has come before her in both parties since WWII, apart from Carter. And I think, in all fairness, her judgement is not worse than W's. It may no be better, but is certainly isn't worse.

Queequeg said:
Oh, I guess that's a hall pass. Shouldn't talk about how bad she is and how frak we are.

Malcolm wrote:
You can talk all you want about how terrible she is, but that really is not the point. Trump cannot be allowed anywhere near the White House. Just bite down on the turd sandwich, chew and swallow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Apology to the Naga Realm
Content:
pemachophel said:
Thanks Malcolm.


Malcolm wrote:
Of course, my pleasure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Queequeg said:
...she has established that she has terrible judgment.


Malcolm wrote:
And so has every president that has come before her in both parties since WWII, apart from Carter. And I think, in all fairness, her judgement is not worse than W's. It may no be better, but is certainly isn't worse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Apology to the Naga Realm
Content:
pemachophel said:
OK, I think I have the revised translation. On page 18 of the Saraswati Bhawan on-line version, where it says "Musk...", I believe it should read:

Naga plants and healing medicinals, such as
Suitable flat [leaves] and sprouts,

The problem is that one of the translators simply typed into their on-line Tib-Eng dictionary klu rtsi and got the word "musk." Since this person was not conversant with Naga puja and lore, this did not raise a red flag. Since I trusted the translator, I also did not notice this (even though I should have).

However, now I'm wondering if the next line, reading "The patterns of colors of a peacock [feather]," is correct. This does not really fit as a type of healing plant. Perhaps rma bya'i mdongs is the proper Tibetan name of a medicinal herb. Malcolm?

Malcolm wrote:
mdongs here means the "eye" or bindu ( thig ) on a feather ( sgro ) of a peacock. so it means a peacock feather, simply put. mdongs -  ...1) sgro thig ...rma bya'i sgro mdongs bkrag mdangs can,..., sgro thig -  rma bya sogs kyi sgro'i mig ....

This passage: ཀླུ་རྩི ་དང་སྨན་གྱིས་གསོ་བ་ནི་འདི་ལྟ་སྟེ simple means " The elixir/tonic and restorative medicine of the nāgās is as follows..."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: On the importance of the white sangha...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There will be many such "siddhas" who confidently rely on false craziness.

dzogchungpa said:
"False craziness" = what in Tibetan?


Malcolm wrote:
smyo brdzu: ma smyo yang smyo khul byed pa, someone who is not crazy/insane pretending to be crazy/insane.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: On the importance of the white sangha...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Also from the same prediction:

Also there will be many siddhas with the ability to ripen and liberate themselves and others, free from obstruction in signs of accomplishments. The lineage of siddhas who have taken dākinīs and dharmapālas as servants will become widely spread just like a cluster of stars. 

But the "strict" discipline of those believed to be siddhas will be guzzling booze. Their qualities will be bad behavior. Their practice will be attachment and aversion. Their experience will be avarice. Their signs of accomplishment will be spawning bastards.The way they benefit migrating beings is seducing groups of young women. Their activities impoverish the land. There will be many such "siddhas" who confidently rely on false craziness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: On the importance of the white sangha...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Oddly enough, the harshest criticism of so-called village Ngakpas (grong sngags pa) are in predictions of Padmasambhava.

heart said:
I am interested to hear more about this as it might explain a few experiences I had, please continue.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
For example, from the Konchog Chidu:
Pekar possess bhandhes, only a few men possess vows. Since demons and spirits possess ngakpas, commitments do not exist and illness increase. Since Gyalpos possess men, they start civil wars. Since Srinmo possess women, they commit adultery, administer poisons and are deceptive. Since The'u rang possess children, they steal, have fevers, and are badly behaved. There are many madmen and rabid dogs. Since the amount of food of sentient beings diminish, the essence of their elements is harmed. Efforts will be made to reach the top of the Himalayas and there will be farming on the mountains.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And just to be fair and balanced:

So today I’m performing a public service on behalf of all the voters. I went back and re-read all the criticisms and attacks and best-selling “exposés” leveled at Hillary Rodham Clinton over the past quarter-century. And I’ve compiled a list of all her High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Here they are:

1. When she was first lady, she murdered White House lawyer Vince Foster and then dumped his body in a park.

2. She drove Vince Foster to commit suicide through her temper tantrums.

3. She was having an affair with Vince Foster.

4. She’s a lesbian.

5. Chelsea isn’t Bill Clinton’s child.

6. She murdered Vince Foster to cover up that she once bought a tract of undeveloped land in Arkansas and lost money.

7. She murdered Vince Foster to cover up her role in firing the White House travel department.

8. After she murdered Vince Foster, she ransacked his office in the middle of the night and stole all the documents proving her guilt.

9. When Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, she was a partner in the state’s top law firm, and it sometimes did work involving the state government.

10. She once invested in commodities futures on the advice of a friend and made $100,000, proving she’s a crook.

11. She once invested in real estate on the advice of another friend and lost $100,000, also proving she’s a crook.

12. Unnamed and unverifiable sources have told Peggy Noonan things about the Clintons that are simply too terrible to repeat.

13. The personnel murdered at Benghazi make her the first secretary of state to lose overseas personnel to terrorism — apart from Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Madeleine Albright, George Schultz, Dean Rusk and some others.

14. Four State Department staff were murdered at Benghazi, compared with only 119 others murdered overseas under every secretary of state combined since World War II.

15. She illegally sent classified emails from her personal server, except that apparently they weren’t classified at the time.

16. She may have cynically wriggled around the email law by “technically” complying with it.

17. She once signed a lucrative book contract when she was a private citizen.

18. Donald Trump says she “should be in jail,” and he’s a serial bankrupt casino developer in Atlantic City, so he should know.

19. Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay says his “law-enforcement sources” tell him she is “about to be indicted” — and if a man once convicted of money laundering and conspiracy doesn’t have good law-enforcement sources, who does?

20. She’s a hard-left radical who wants to break up the nuclear family.

21. She’s a conservative “mousewife” who refused to break up her own family.

22. She’s in favor of single moms.

23. She refused to be a single mom.

24. When she was first lady of Arkansas, she pandered to conservative voters by dyeing her hair.

25. Before that, she totally insulted them by refusing to.

26. She’s a frump.

27. She spends too much money on designer dresses.

28. She has “cankles.”

29. She has a grating voice.

30. She yells into the microphone.

31. She spent 18 years in Arkansas and some of the people she knew turned out to be crazy rednecks and crooks.

32. She’s in the pay of the mafia.

33. She’s in the pay of the Chinese government.

34. She’s in the pay of the Wall Street banks.

35. In order to suppress the billing records from her time at the Rose Law Firm in Little Rock, she cleverly packed them up and took them to the White House rather than shredding them.

36. When she handed over the documents to public officials, they couldn’t find any evidence she’d committed any crimes, so she must have doctored them.

37. Congress spent tens of millions of dollars and six years investigating her investment in the Whitewater real-estate project, and, while they didn’t actually find anything, they wouldn’t have spent all that money if there weren’t something there.

38. By cleverly hiding all evidence of her crimes in the Whitewater affair, she caused Congress to waste all that taxpayers’ money.

39. When she ran for senator of New York, she was still a fan of the Chicago Cubs.

40. She once said the Clintons were thinking of adopting a child, and they didn’t follow through.

41. She was photographed holding her hand near her mouth during the raid that killed Osama bin Laden.

42. She’s got brain damage.

43. She’s old.

44. She’s really ambitious and calculating, unlike all the other people running for president.

45. She secretly supported Palestinian terrorists, Puerto Rican terrorists and Guatemalan terrorists.

46. She secretly supported a group that wants to give Maine back to the Indians.

47. She’s a secret follower of “radical prophet” Saul Alinsky.

48. She did her law degree at Yale, and it’s a well-known “socialist finishing school.”

49. When she was young, she did things to build up her résumé rather than just for their own good.

50. When Bill was president, she “allowed” him to keep people waiting.

51. She’s married to a sex addict.

52. She’s an enemy of traditional marriage.

53. She didn’t divorce her husband.

54. His philandering is her fault because she is too strong, and too weak, and too frumpy, and too fat, and too cold.

55. She’s hostile to women who fool around with her husband.

56. A divorced taxi driver in Florida told me that if Hillary is elected president, “women will take over everything.”

57. She insulted Tammy Wynette.

58. When they left the White House, she and Bill bought a big house in New York that they couldn’t afford.

59. She sometimes calls her staff during dinner, even when they’re out at a restaurant.

60. She claimed there was a “vast right-wing conspiracy” against her husband, and it turned out there was nothing but a bunch of tycoons financing private investigators, and some fake think tanks and books and news sites and stuff.

61. When she got married, she didn’t “stay at home and bake cookies.”

62. She supported the Iraq war because she’s a secret foreign-policy conservative.

63. She’s a secret foreign-policy radical with a plan to impose worldwide “radical social experimentation” through the World Bank.

64. She is secretly plotting to let children sue their parents for making them take out the garbage.

65. She looked bored during the Benghazi hearings.

66. Oh, yeah — and she totally has a vagina.

It’s clear: Hillary must be stopped. Hearings now!

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/all-the-terrible-things-hillary-clinton-has-done-in-one-big-list-2016-02-04


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
PS, the only year they had a person of color running at the top of the ticket was against Obama in 2008. The rest of the time their top of the ticket as been a white person (Nader 2000; Cobb 2004, Stein 2012, 2016).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
amanitamusc said:
If Bernie used it as a platform to run?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you have to understand that Stein is part of the 1%. She behaves that way as well. Not only that but she owns stock in Merck (Vioxx) and Home Depot (union busting, https://teamsternation.blogspot.com/2011/04/home-depots-disgusting-union-busting.html ).

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


Queequeg said:
We? Who the F is "we"?

You? Well, rest assured, I was not referring to you in the latter half of my comment about the Crook's supporters.

Malcolm wrote:
Basically, "we" is everyone who is voting "for" Clinton at this point is voting to keep Trump out, even her fervent devotees.

And quite honestly, I hope the GOP loses their majorities. They have proven themselves incapable of controlling the batshit crazy wing of their party.

At this point, people who would have voted democratic, but are voting for either Jill "Watch me get arrested" Stein or Gary "What's Aleppo" Johnson are idiots. I cannot understand why the Libs did not put Bill Weld as the top of the ticket. They might have had a real chance. Bill Weld is ok.

amanitamusc said:
I think we might have had a real chance if Bernie took Stein's offer to run in her place.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, Greens are mainly incompetent white liberals who do not understand their own privilege.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 13th, 2016 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: On the importance of the white sangha...
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Now why would somebody anonymously forge something like this and then ascribe it to somebody?

For the money?  The power?  The hot chicks?  The fast cars?

Malcolm wrote:
They even translated the title of this fake text wrong. It should be, " The Sūtra of the Black Locks of Samantabhadra."

To answer your question though: branding.

There is a reason why the provenance of a text should be subjected to scrutiny.

tomamundsen said:
Is the rest of the information in the article similarly unreliable? Or mostly true?

Malcolm wrote:
In my opinion, it is mostly concerned with silly arguments such as:
The reason now that we place such importance on the outer appearance is a question of bodhicitta rather than of essential necessity. If Buddhism, let alone Vajrayana Buddhism, is to survive in the West - there must be an alternative to the monastic style. Buddhism will never be established even as a minor religion in Western countries as long as there are no clergy apart from monastics. This is why we have to be so scrupulous about our costume and the precise details of the vows involved. This is why we have to insist on uncut hair. Any deviation from the historical model undermines our position completely.
This sentiment is complete bollocks. There is no set, official Nakpa outfit or hair style. Ngakpas dress a hundred different ways, corresponding with the needs of sentient beings. They can wear three robes, or Gucci suits.

What is important is practicing Dzogchen, not being concerned with one's hair style, clothing, or other relative, secondary accouterments.

Further:
We simply advocate the gö-kar-chang-lo as a way of integrating with life in the West - a way of making working family life a method of practice that can inspire others.
It is unnecessary, and in fact bizarre, to insist that copying Tibetan clothes is necessary for making family life a method of practice in the West.


tomamundsen said:
until the 11th Century, but thereafter the gö-kar-chang-lo'i-dé began to diminish and female practitioners in particular were forced into the background.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an unsubstantiated (male) fantasy. There is no evidence to support this. One, there is no evidence to support the idea that Ngakpas went into decline following the 11th century. Second, women, when they appear in ancient literature at all, generally appear only as the mothers and wives of important men. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of female authors in Tibetan Buddhism before the 20th Century, all of them Nyingma.

tomamundsen said:
This was the time when they began to live in remote villages in order to continue their practises. They would live anywhere sufficiently far from the large monastic institutions. It would seem that the disparaging term 'village ngakpa' came from that period, as a way of diminishing respect given to the ngakphang sangha in places where the monasteries had less influence.

Malcolm wrote:
This piece of sociological speculation is also completely unsubstantiated and is not born out by even a superficial observation of Tibetan society. Ngakpa Dratsangs alway operated within close proximity to large Monastic establishments. The exception to this would be Tibetan Lamas who fled local wars with their families and followers and relocated to hidden lands. When established, they would automatically set about reestablishing Monastic Buddhism, monks and all. Oddly enough, the harshest criticism of so-called village Ngakpas (grong sngags pa) are in predictions of Padmasambhava.

I could go on, but what's the point?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2016 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nope. We are just talking about denying the Whitehouse to a uninformed, paranoid, sissy manbaby with a serious narcissistic personality disorder.

Queequeg said:
We? Who the F is "we"?

You? Well, rest assured, I was not referring to you in the latter half of my comment about the Crook's supporters.

Malcolm wrote:
Basically, "we" is everyone who is voting "for" Clinton at this point is voting to keep Trump out, even her fervent devotees.

And quite honestly, I hope the GOP loses their majorities. They have proven themselves incapable of controlling the batshit crazy wing of their party.

At this point, people who would have voted democratic, but are voting for either Jill "Watch me get arrested" Stein or Gary "What's Aleppo" Johnson are idiots. I cannot understand why the Libs did not put Bill Weld as the top of the ticket. They might have had a real chance. Bill Weld is ok.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2016 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Queequeg said:
Our discourse in these threads parallels the election discourse. Now that it's dominated by the Buffoon and the Crook, we're discoursing like middle schoolers about vomit and genitals or disingenuously promoting a candidate as the best option who has no clear idea why she's running except that it was an ambition of hers back in college and thinks it's now her turn.

Woe.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. We are just talking about denying the Whitehouse to a uninformed, paranoid, sissy manbaby with a serious narcissistic personality disorder.

My president is still Bernie Sanders. That is who I voted for. Now I am just voting against.

Any practitioner of Buddhadharma who does not understand why they need to vote against Trump has understood nothing about the Dharma and needs to start over at the beginning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2016 at 9:41 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Fa Dao said:
a little surprised here Malcolm...as an accomplished scholar and debater I figured you would have something more convincing than that...

Norwegian said:
If someone holds several buckets full of vomit, and threatens to empty it over your furniture and belongings, do you need a scholar's dissertation on why this would be a bad thing?

Fa Dao said:
yes..especially if there is someone there saying I have to choose between that and another person standing there with a bucket of piss...I am not proTrump...its just that so far I have not been shown anything, anywhere that shows me he is worse than hillary

Malcolm wrote:
Then you have not been paying attention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 12th, 2016 at 5:54 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Fa Dao said:
even with everything that has come out recently I am still not convinced that hillary is the "lesser of two evils"...

Malcolm wrote:
Trump cannot be allowed in the Whitehouse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: On the importance of the white sangha...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Pretty sure this whole piece is an old, anonymous forgery from the use of the term sngags 'phang, which actually does not exist in Tibetan.

For example, you can go run a search on it here:

https://www.tbrc.org/#library_BannerAdvanced

Search 1,007,324 pages of Tibetan, and you will never find it once, not to mention the so called "kun tu bzang po ral pa nag po'i mdo."

dzogchungpa said:
There's some discussion of the word here:
https://approachingaro.org/comment/reply/30

Malcolm wrote:
There are some discussions everywhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
And ultimately?

Malcolm wrote:
They are empty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
So do processes exist?


Malcolm wrote:
Conventionally, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: On the importance of the white sangha...
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Now why would somebody anonymously forge something like this and then ascribe it to somebody?

For the money?  The power?  The hot chicks?  The fast cars?


Malcolm wrote:
They even translated the title of this fake text wrong. It should be, " The Sūtra of the Black Locks of Samantabhadra."

To answer your question though: branding.

There is a reason why the provenance of a text should be subjected to scrutiny.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
amanitamusc said:
My feeling is that  when Bernie left there was no one to vote for .

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: On the importance of the white sangha...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Pretty sure this whole piece is an old, anonymous forgery from the use of the term sngags 'phang, which actually does not exist in Tibetan.

For example, you can go run a search on it here:

https://www.tbrc.org/#library_BannerAdvanced

Search 1,007,324 pages of Tibetan, and you will never find it once, not to mention the so called "kun tu bzang po ral pa nag po'i mdo."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 3:58 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
And ultimately speaking? Is there any true continuity/connection between the six "snapshots?"

On the ultimate level, is what we'd call a process -- a glass dropping and shattering on the floor, a seed sprouting and growing into a tree and getting old and dying, a human life from conception to death -- truly a process (a sequence of events/moments linked over time by causality) or is "process" just a figment of the mind's imagination?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no ultimate level which can be ascertained apart from the relative level. The two truths are inseparable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
So, per the MMK, there is ultimately no causation, right? Therefore no continuity. Therefore each of these "moments" is utterly independent of the others:

Letting go of a glass.
The glass halfway to the floor.
The glass hitting the floor.
The glass shattering into pieces.
The sound of shattering.
The field of shards lying on the floor.

Any sense of connection/continuity is an illusion created by mind.

?

Malcolm wrote:
According MMK, conventionally speaking causes and effects are neither the same nor different, like milk and curd.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Yeah. threatening to jail your political opponents is a real "knock out".

Oh wait, no it's not. It's insane, childish rhetoric befitting a two bit wannabe dictator.

amanitamusc said:
When Kissinger was SS he certainly deserved a sentence .H C  and her role as SS would also make her a candidate for a striped suit.

This fact in no way qualifies trump as a leader.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, agreed, and from this point of view we would have to jail every politician from George Washington (Washington engaged in the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans, and was given the name Town Destroyer) onwards.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Because that which dependently originates is empty, it is illusory.

rachmiel said:
Gotcha, thanks. Emptiness itself is not a phenomena to characterize as either real or illusory.
But is is a conceptual construct. In which case emptiness itself is empty. Right?

Malcolm wrote:
Emptinesss is a dependent designation, so yes, it is itself empty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 11th, 2016 at 12:36 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
This is an exchange from page 12 of the https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=20407&start=220:

>>> rachMiel: This would mean that one of the cornerstones of Buddhist dharma, dependent arising, is ultimately illusion. Ditto, I assume, for the other biggies: anicca, anatman, rebirth, etc. Dharmakaya too.

>> Bakmoon: Precisely, all is illusory,

> Malcolm: Yes, Haribhadra states the path, including the attainment of buddhahood, is illusory from beginning to end.

If dependent arising = emptiness, and dependent arising is an illusion ... emptiness is an illusion also. But that's not what Nagarjuna asserts, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Because that which dependently originates is empty, it is illusory. Emptiness itself is not a phenomena to characterize as either real or illusory. To say something is empty is equivalent to saying it is illusory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
In Advaita, cause and effect holds at the conventional level (vyavaharika), but is meaningless at the ultimate level (paramarthika) in which there is only brahman.

Isn't that basically what Nagarjuna said (except for the brahman part) in the Mulamadhyamakakarika?

Malcolm wrote:
No, Nāgārjuna states that dependent origination and emptiness are basically the same thing:

That which originates in dependence is explained as emptiness,
that is a dependent designation, that itself is the middle way.
And:
Whoever rejects the emptiness of dependent origination
is one who rejects all mundane conventions.

And:
Whoever sees dependent origination sees suffering,
the source of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the path.
One of the Buddhist criticisms of Advaita is that their presentation of the relative, conventional level is faulty, and therefore, their presentation of the ultimate is consequently faulty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Unknown said:
I say this straightforwardly — I think Donald Trump is a pathological liar. It really is rather extraordinary.

Malcolm wrote:
-- Bernie Sanders 10/10/2016


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
But if self is understood to be nothing other than _____________ (the unfathomable mystery), can it still be said to be self? The statement "atman is brahman" can be effectively reduced to simply "brahman" since brahman is all there really is.

Malcolm wrote:
If this is the case, the cause and effect are rendered meaningless and Advaita cannot escape the fault of Satkaryavāda.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
Yes.

I still wonder how different these teachings really are:

Buddhism: Don't identify with anything.
Advaita: Identify with no-thing.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is the latter is a view of self. The former is not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Rakz said:
What an amazing knockout performance. We can officially say The Donald is back in it.
Clinton: OK, Donald. I know you’re into big diversion tonight, anything to avoid talking about your campaign and the way it’s exploding and the way Republicans are leaving you.

Malcolm wrote:
Poor Donald, a short, brash, annoying woman ran circles around you. Perhaps you need another line.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 8:53 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
Advaita recognizes six kinds of knowledge, one of which, pratyaksha (perception) implies direct, immediate cognition. But I don't think pratyaksha and rigpa have much in common.

From http://www.vmission.org.in/vedanta/articles/pramanas.htm:

In all direct perception the knowledge is extremely clear but its scope is very limited. What we can directly see not only constitutes an extremely small iota of the wide spectrum of things existing in this universe, but many a times that which is directly cognized is far from truth.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said it is a special direct perception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
In Advaita knowledge experience is considered fleeting and ultimately illusory. Knowledge on the other hand is considered permanent; you don't have to re-learn that you are brahman.

Malcolm wrote:
By experience, a special kind of  direct perception with one's senses is meant.

This knowledge (rig pa) is irreversible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
The Cicada said:
Why else would we respond to the motto, "Make America Great Again?"

Malcolm wrote:
Elect Trump, and with his pathetic business record, the US will never recover, just like his casinos and other failed businesses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
Advaitan teachings are very rational, almost like a science of metaphysical reality. Knowledge is valued more than experience. Practice consists mostly of reading and contemplating the teachings, and maintaining a lifestyle conducive to this. Meditation is generally seen as optional.

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, experience is knowledge, without which one knows nothing other than abstractions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
Malcolm: Gotcha.

If brahman has no attributes, therefore is undetectable, how can it be known that it is real?

In my understanding, Advaita's answers to this are:

1. You keep Neti Neti! -ing (rationally denying the ultimate truth of things/appearances) until the Truth (brahman) is all that remains.

2. You trust the word of the Hindu/Advaitan sages who have come to know the Truth with utter certainty.

3. You come to know the Truth with utter certainty via your studies/contemplation.

Malcolm wrote:
This is all completely intellectual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
Brahman is not like emptiness; phenomena are not "brahmanic."

The closest I can come to describing brahman (given my understanding of the term) is something like:

Everything is brahman: phenomena, mind, self, energy, mass, thought, etc. ad infinitum. You name it, it's brahman. (That which cannot be named, brahman too.) But bear in mind that this is just figurative, since brahman defies any literal description. Which is why for most traditional Adviata teachers, the less said about brahman the better.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, which is why I find it to be an incoherent view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
rachmiel said:
That might be how the teaching is delivered or interpreted. But "permanent" and "undifferentiated" are attributes. So the most accurate teaching wouldn't include either of these terms.

Malcolm wrote:
At base, is Brahmin an attribute of phenomena or not? Emptiness is an attribute of phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Svabhava / Brahman
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Advaita teaches us to identify with a permanent, undifferentiated essence which possesses no attributes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 10th, 2016 at 2:36 AM
Title: Re: Experiences after some Mahakala and Vajrasattva meditations
Content:
purple1 said:
Thanks for the help, i didn't knew that a teacher is nessecary for practice Vajrasattva meditation. What about Mahakala? Is  Mahakala meditation need a teacher like Vajrasattva meditation?

Malcolm wrote:
In order to practice any mantra of Mahakala, you need transmission too. In the latter case, many obstacles can arise if you do not do things in a proper way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Experiences after some Mahakala and Vajrasattva meditations
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Again false. This mantra exists in no sūtra.

Sherab Dorje said:
Not even the short one?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. I have looked into this extensively. This confusion exists because there is a one hundred syllabe mantra of the tathāgātas found in sūtra, but it is completely different than Vajrasattva.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Experiences after some Mahakala and Vajrasattva meditations
Content:
purple1 said:
Hi there. I am a theravada (hinayana) buddhist and i practice theravada (hinayana) meditations but sometimes i do meditation on Mahakala and Vajrasattva. I don't see that my life became better. I will detail it. Mahakala should defend me, he should remove the big hindrances and problems from my life. I don't experience it. Vajrasattva should clean my bad karmas, so i should experience less bad karmas in my present life. I don't experience it. WHY? The only interesting thing was i saw a blue buddha with blue lights around his body. I never saw such buddha before. Then i did a search on the internet with these words "blue buddha" and i saw  the buddha on google, it was very similar like which i saw. Interesting. Another buddha i saw after a meditation was a buddha which sit on lotus and the lotus was on clouds. I saw it for only some second so i didn't really saw the buddha. But i saw the clouds. I did a search on google and sure i saw buddhas who sit on lotus and the lotus was on clouds.... Again, an interesting thing.
My life.... is not better than before. What more, my life is worse now. I lost my job, i got a new job, which is harder than my previous job. My mental illness doesn't change, i spent some days at the psychiatry some months ago. (I have serious schizophrenia and anxiety). Working is very hard to me - though i work only 4 hours daily because i get a money support. My mind is very tired often. I get injection once in a month for cure schizophrenia.
If there are buddhas around me - then why they do not help? Where are they when i am in stress? Why my life doesn't turn into better?

Virgo said:
Hi purple,that vajrasattva practice that you spoke about.  Did you receive a transmission of the mantra from a Buddhist guru?  You should not do those mantras without an initiation.

Virgo

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Vajrasattva may also be practiced as a sutra practice, no lung needed. But its best with lun always.

Malcolm wrote:
Again false. This mantra exists in no sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Experiences after some Mahakala and Vajrasattva meditations
Content:
Vasana said:
According to Alex Berzin on this site you can engage with Vajrasattva meditation at Mahayana sutra level before tantric initiation. Someone else will have to confirm if this is correct.

Malcolm wrote:
Berzin is wrong. Vajrasattva comes from Yoga Tantra. It is for purifying samaya. It is not a sutra level practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


The Cicada said:
If Hillary Clinton wins because enough individuals were actually taken in on the media's spin of everything Trump has ever said in his entire life, it means that Americans are generally unfit for the democracy that will be laid to rest when she takes office. If the constituency is genuinely that greedy or fearful or weak-minded, it will mean that the country I was born in no longer exists.

Malcolm wrote:
It hasn't existed for a long time. Reagan put the first nails in the coffin, and W finished it.




The Cicada said:
When I was young, this was a nation that strode into the stars and had plans to plant roots in the sky. We were bold and magnanimous and ready to atone for the past and move into a new future for humankind - and truly, for all life as we know it. We were an earnest nation of the chosen, though hicks, who nonetheless defended the weak of the whole world, fed the hungry, righted wrongs, and made a place for the brightest of this human race to contribute for the benefit of everyone.  But what are we now?

Malcolm wrote:
This is a nice fantasy, but it is utterly false in every respect. This nation has never defended the weak, fed the hungry, righted wrongs, nor made a place for the brightest in the human race.

It has engaged in the systematic genocide of the indigenous population, made institutions of racism and sexism, and created a base for capitalism to practice unrestricted, environmentally destructive, pillaging of the natural resources of every continent in the world, and engaged in aggressive war after aggressive war in order to satisfy imperialist goals.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
dreambow said:
You have faith Bernie will save the day... you may wish it but its unlikely to happen  What with the power and influence of the big end of town casting a shadow over the candidates. If you believe he is the saviour you are in snooze mode.

Malcolm wrote:
Bernie is not going to save any day. But he will continue to inject honesty into politics. And that is all we need.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 8:55 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
dreambow said:
Even though many are fed up, there will be no up rising, no revolution. The reason being while there is plenty of food, huge  variety from organic to  junk food, alcohol readily available and often cheap enough. Then add entertainment, distraction...porn, face book, snap chat, TV, Netflix, I could go on and on. It placates us, we doze in fits and starts, sometimes we are aware we are being had, watched. exploited but not for long. Mainly its siesta time and we readily press the snooze button.

Malcolm wrote:
Speak for yourself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:


DGA said:
Disagree.  Those emails confirm everything about the Clinton campaign and the DLC and DNC that Sanders was pointing out in his campaign.  This is hardly insignificant.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, the emails are old news. We knew everything in them.

DGA said:
This is a smoking gun confirming what had largely been inferred by those of us on the left or the "good governance" set on the right and in the center.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and I intend to follow Bernie's advice and vote to deny Trump the presidency. I assume you will too.

DGA said:
By the way, it is worth noting that many of Sanders' supporters were/are more conservative than Clinton's in the primaries.  How is that?  Because they were attracted to a promise of good governance, not because they wanted to support a socialist.  That's disappointing to those of us who want to see a left-oriented social movement take hold, but promising in that it shows meaningful political coalitions can be created across the left-right poles if the objectives are clear.

Malcolm wrote:
I vote based in my commitment to environmentalism. HRC will be better for the environment than Trump. Stein is an grandstanding idiot. Gary "Aleppo" Johnson is too high to be president.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Nemo said:
Yep, it would take a miracle for Donald "Grab her by the pussy" Trump to be elected now. Maybe Wikileaks will drop a bomb on Hillary. Still 3 weeks to go. Hillary is an awful warmonger, but not GHBTP awful. He has lost his protest vote appeal.

Malcolm wrote:
Wikileaks emails also dropped, nothing to see there.

DGA said:
Disagree.  Those emails confirm everything about the Clinton campaign and the DLC and DNC that Sanders was pointing out in his campaign.  This is hardly insignificant.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, the emails are old news. We knew everything in them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Nemo said:
Remember when you guys thought Rob Ford was funny. You laughed and laughed. He was unelectable too.

And Malcolm, Trump is more Turd Sandwich if elected. Unelected he is a Giant Douche. Brexit-ers lied to pollsters but in the privacy of the voting box they gave the elites that giant turd sandwich.


Malcolm wrote:
Trump lost the election yesterday.

Nemo said:
Yep, it would take a miracle for Donald "Grab her by the pussy" Trump to be elected now. Maybe Wikileaks will drop a bomb on Hillary. Still 3 weeks to go. Hillary is an awful warmonger, but not GHBTP awful. He has lost his protest vote appeal.

Malcolm wrote:
Wikileaks emails also dropped, nothing to see there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, it is to be found in the Pali canon. Keep looking.

binocular said:
Found with the kind help from Bodhipaksa:
SN 22.94
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.94
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather, it is the world that disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma does not dispute with anyone in the world.

Although "to dispute" is not the same as "to be against", unless one is coming from an authoritarian background where "he that is not instantly and totally with me, is instantly and totally against me".

Malcolm wrote:
You've understood the meaning. That is the important part.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 9th, 2016 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Anadi on the Flawed Perfection of Dzogchen
Content:
fckw said:
I have my doubts that Anadi ever systematically practiced Dzogchen and received corresponding teachings. At least to me it does not look like.

Yet, at the same time, I find it also quite interesting, how he is disqualified here without anyone ever even trying to understand his arguments.

Malcolm wrote:
His arguments are worthless. They are not based on any actual experience with the meaning of the Natural Great Perfection.


fckw said:
Maybe what he has to say is actually worth considering? For example:
One of its main shortcomings is that it does not point with any real clarity to what rigpa actually is, or how to verify if and when one has reached it.
Is he right, is he wrong? If so, why?

Malcolm wrote:
The entire content of the Great Perfection teaching concerns what vidyā is, how to verify that one's knowledge is accurate and so on.


fckw said:
For example, I have visited two very highly regarded Dzogchen teachers (who shall remain unnamed) and was quite disappointed by both of them. In my eyes, their teachings were rather useless to the then present audience.

Malcolm wrote:
Did other students present share your opinion? If not, why not?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Nemo said:
Remember when you guys thought Rob Ford was funny. You laughed and laughed. He was unelectable too.

And Malcolm, Trump is more Turd Sandwich if elected. Unelected he is a Giant Douche. Brexit-ers lied to pollsters but in the privacy of the voting box they gave the elites that giant turd sandwich.


Malcolm wrote:
Trump lost the election yesterday.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Jeff H said:
Fair enough. But to your first and third points, it seems to me that even if Trump can't win the election, he is closer to being able to lead a significant movement than Bernie and his supporters are.

Malcolm wrote:
Trump and Sander received more or less an even number of votes in the primary, 13.3 million (Trump) to  Sander's 13.2 million. Given that, I don't really cede your point.


Jeff H said:
To the second point, 300 years?

Malcolm wrote:
Yup. This this is how we have to think about our goals and targets.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Jeff H said:
How can the left-leaners be awakened? How will "we" deal with, not just Clinton, but the whole corrupt system later? I don't mean this rhetorically. How?

Malcolm wrote:
The same way any social movement deals with anything —— through constant speaking to the issues.

Jeff H said:
It's a similar issue that's being discussed in the "Deep Ecology" thread: how does an esoteric, elite social impulse become a national movement that can affect meaningful change in a timely manner?

Malcolm wrote:
Any meaningful environmental movement, in this epoch, has to have a three hundred year time frame.

Jeff H said:
"We will deal with [fill in the blank] later" is a direct quote from the movie Cabaret which depicted why Hitler was unstoppable after his society hit a certain threshold of "post-truth, post-fact, post-honesty".

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think Trump will be elected. Clinton is not Hitler.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Now you are being inconsistent with your previous statements.

binocular said:
How?
I don't see an inconsistency.
As the Buddha said, "I am not against the world, but the world is against me,."
Source, please.
The Buddha never seemed to me like someone with Jesus' attitude.

Aemilius said:
This "quotation" of Buddha probably derives from what he said at the end of the Smaller Sukhavativyuha Sutra. Buddha Shakyamuni says there that he has now achieved a most difficult task by teaching the Dharma of Sukhavati which the whole world is reluctant to believe and reluctant to accept.
There are many versions and/or translations of this sutra in circulation, the above is how I remember it (from 1970's and 1980's). The present version of Jodo Shu Research Institute is slightly different, but not entirely different.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is to be found in the Pali canon. Keep looking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Queequeg said:
It went into overdrive in the aughts for several reasons - pumping the money supply to distract from the war (?), the development of all those crazy derivatives turning the hiding of risk into a giant shell game... The pop just set us back on the track of the long decline.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, and all of this was a result of Bush administration policies. So while the Dems did some stupid things like the final coup de grace on Glass Stegal, it was the Republicans who really created the 2008 mess.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 8:28 AM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Not everything is findable google.

binocular said:
Then do provide a source for the Buddha saying, "I am not against the world, but the world is against me."
This doesn't seem like a Buddhist outlook.

Malcolm wrote:
It's a very famous statement by the Buddha. Keep looking.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 8:27 AM
Title: Re: Anadi on the Flawed Perfection of Dzogchen
Content:
florin said:
I would say that his conclusion that dzogchen is a flawed perfection is quite flawed.

Malcolm wrote:
He is an idiot. Ignore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
- shrinking of the middle class
This happened because of George W. Bushes failed economic policies.

Queequeg said:
No. Systemic, though Dubya was part of the problem. Along with Bubba. Along with Barry. The wealth distribution system is broken. Tech advances and free trade hollowed out the middle class. Excel and word processing made back office personnel unnecessary. Free trade and robots did the rest.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it was mostly W. 2008 crash happened on his watch, because his advisors encouraged liberalization of lending practices and financial services.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
dreambow said:
" My only regret is that the DNC corruptly denied Bernie the nomination. But I am still voting against Trump. As I said, we will deal with Clinton later" Brave words! How exactly are you going to deal with Clinton later?


Malcolm wrote:
Bernie.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are a big boy, you can find it.

binocular said:
Google doesn't give any finds.

Malcolm wrote:
Not everything is findable google.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Rakz said:
It is always easy to blame everything on Bush.

Malcolm wrote:
I am just blaming him for the things you brought up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Rakz said:
4 years will be more than enough to heal and make no mistake things will continue to get worse under Clinton.

Malcolm wrote:
Worse for who?

Rakz said:
For everyone.

Under the Dems for the past 8 years:

- race relations at the lowest point in decades

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, racism has increased dramatically because of white resentment of our first black president. The police have been shooting black people for years, smartphones just made it visceral and not anecdotal.

Rakz said:
- helped Iran become a nuclear power

Malcolm wrote:
This is unbelievably silly.


Rakz said:
- shrinking of the middle class

Malcolm wrote:
This happened because of George W. Bushes failed economic policies.


Rakz said:
- with the help of Hillary, fomented the rise of islamic terrorist organization ISIS and destabilized many Middle Eastern countries

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, this again falls squarely on W's shoulders.


Rakz said:
- set illegal immigrants on the road to citizenship

Malcolm wrote:
I fully support amnesty for all undocumented immigrants who have no criminal record.

Rakz said:
- National debt doubles

Malcolm wrote:
To pay for a war W started.

So I guess if you are white, Christian and conservative things have gotten a little worse because of decades of Republican failed policies. Other than those whiny people, things are not great but they have improved somewhat since there has been no Republican in the white house for the past 8 years. My only regret is that the DNC corruptly denied Bernie the nomination. But I am still voting against Trump. As I said, we will deal with Clinton later.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
binocular said:
As the Buddha said, "I am not against the world, but the world is against me,."
Source, please.
The Buddha never seemed to me like someone with Jesus' attitude.

Malcolm wrote:
You are a big boy, you can find it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Rakz said:
There's no doubt Trump will lose this one. Republican party is focused on Paul Ryan for 2020. 12 years of Democrat rule will be too much to bear and the pendulum will swing back hard.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, Trump has ruined the republican brand for at least another 8 years, if not longer.

Rakz said:
4 years will be more than enough to heal and make no mistake things will continue to get worse under Clinton.

Malcolm wrote:
Worse for who?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Rakz said:
There's no doubt Trump will lose this one. Republican party is focused on Paul Ryan for 2020. 12 years of Democrat rule will be too much to bear and the pendulum will swing back hard.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, Trump has ruined the republican brand for at least another 8 years, if not longer.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Yep. They are pretty much toast until they re-brand as some sort of more inclusive libertarian thing.

Malcolm wrote:
It is pretty hard to recover from going all in for a fascist shithead.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: Gyatrul R. on 9.21.16
Content:
smcj said:
The idea that all appearances, sounds, and thoughts are by nature enlightened body, speech, and mind—that is right now.

Malcolm wrote:
Totally inconsistent with gzhan stong though...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Rakz said:
There's no doubt Trump will lose this one. Republican party is focused on Paul Ryan for 2020. 12 years of Democrat rule will be too much to bear and the pendulum will swing back hard.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, Trump has ruined the republican brand for at least another 8 years, if not longer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 8th, 2016 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Why should they wish to prove something that is demonstrably false?

binocular said:
I don't know if it's false. Legions of modern psychologists and teachers of popular spirituality hold that happiness is to be found in the here and now, in various worldly pursuits. They can't be ignored just like that.

Malcolm wrote:
Now you are being inconsistent with your previous statements.

binocular said:
So if you say they're wrong, then it's you vs. all those people.

Malcolm wrote:
As the Buddha said, "I am not against the world, but the world is against me,."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 8:28 PM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:


Matylda said:
one may see many root texts also in other traditions like dzogchen which by themselves do not make yet any real sense without proper instruction of genuine master, and subsequent instructions in the course of practice and appearing experiences... however one may see people who pretend to understand and who try to make their own teaching out of the invalid reading..

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. This is true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A rock cannot point out to your own state. That is the difference between a rock and guru.

Astus said:
Is that so? There are several stories in Zen that show how someone was awakened by natural events.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the same as having your real nature pointed out to you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One of the basic principles of deep ecology is developing a sense of what Naess calls an "ecological self," which he defines with reference to the Mahāyāna concept of absence of inherent nature.
Buddha himself declared that it is fine to refer to the aggregates as a self, providing one understood that nothing real was described by such a usage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
binocular said:
they refuse to show that one can find ultimate satisfaction in worldly pleasures. I'm still waiting.

Malcolm wrote:
Why should they wish to prove something that is demonstrably false? You are asking the wrong questions, making the wrong points, and expect things of lay people the Buddha never expected.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 8:23 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Nemo said:
I think Brexit means Trump could be pushed over the top into winning. Most people know he is a turd sandwich.

Malcolm wrote:
No, he is the great douche. HC is the turd sandwich. I see you have not been keeping up with Southpark.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: The 5th Skandha
Content:
maybay said:
The problem with the doctrine if momentariness is, apart from being post canonical, that by the end of its development in yogacara there's still no clarity on what a moment is meant to represent. It could be a second or an aeon.
.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually a moment is the duration of a concept. That length is 1.3 milliseconds according to Vasubandhu, converted to the decimal system.

maybay said:
Well he's obviously wrong in the kosa which doesn't represent yogacara view anyway.


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is one of the few places in Buddhist literature where moments are given a definition at all...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Apology to the Naga Realm
Content:
Soma999 said:
Hi Malcolm,

I was wondering from which source do you know that musc is toxic to nagas ?
Do you imply the sutras contains errors ?

There are many sources. Some say nagas don't eat meat, still, Machik talk about some nagas who does (they class them in four, depending on their castes if i remember well ; 3 are vegetarian, 1 take meat).

Maybe your advise on musc comes from the fact this is derived from animal product ?

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure the sutra is not in error, I am sure however the translation is in error.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: The 5th Skandha
Content:
maybay said:
The problem with the doctrine if momentariness is, apart from being post canonical, that by the end of its development in yogacara there's still no clarity on what a moment is meant to represent. It could be a second or an aeon.
.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually a moment is the duration of a concept. That length is 1.3 milliseconds according to Vasubandhu, converted to the decimal system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: The Twelve Linked Chain and The Between State
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
So...  You are saying that a "body" composed of the air element is a physical body (form skandha), because it is composed of an element?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the idea that hell beings have no bodies comes from Vasubandhu.


Sentient Light said:
Unless I'm thinking of another section than you, I think what Vasubandhu was mostly asserting is that the guards that dole out the torment within hell don't have actual bodies, because they are not real beings subject to birth and death, but rather are projections manifest from the minds of the beings who were born into hell.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, including everything else that happens to them.
When I said you were mixing up Hinayāna and Mahāyāna views, I meant that there is only one section of Mahāyāna that maintains that even conventionally, hells being have no bodies, i.e., cittamatra.

Sentient Light said:
If we take the cittamatra view to be that hell beings have no bodies, we would also have to assert that human beings have no bodies either, wouldn't we? Cittamatra says that form is not independent of the mind, but that doesn't mean that bodies of hell beings are not still manifest of form.

Malcolm wrote:
Vasubandhu maintains that preta realm and hell realm are purely mental projections, unlike the upper four realms, where conventionally beings have bodies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: The Twelve Linked Chain and The Between State
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
So...  You are saying that a "body" composed of the air element is a physical body (form skandha), because it is composed of an element?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the idea that hell beings have no bodies comes from Vasubandhu. When I said you were mixing up Hinayāna and Mahāyāna views, I meant that there is only one section of Mahāyāna that maintains that even conventionally, hells being have no bodies, i.e., cittamatra.

The element of air is one of the four mahābhūtas, and therefore, a body made from the element of air is indeed part of the rupāskandha and is capable of perceiving physical sense objects, which are also part of the rūpaskandha. It is indeed a subtle body, since it is predominantly made of air, but each of the four elements contains the other three elements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: The Twelve Linked Chain and The Between State
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are mixing up Mahāyāna and Hināyāna definitions. From the Hinayāna POV, hell beings and pretas have physical bodies and locations.

Sherab Dorje said:
???  I didn't say they had physical bodies, I said the opposite.

Malcolm wrote:
They have physical bodies, unless you are subscribing to the cittamatra view, in which the aggregate of form is just part of the imputed nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: The Twelve Linked Chain and The Between State
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
In the Chonyi bardo one has all five aggregates?  I would have thought that after the dissolution into the element of space one kisses their previous physical form goodbye.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, one has all five aggregates even in the bardo of dharmātā. When one passes through the bardo of the time of death, one assumes a new series of aggregates. This is why one hears and sees sound, lights and rays during the bardo of dharmatā. This is all very clearly described in the Dzogchen teachings on the bardo. But that is beyond the scope of Q's question.

Vasana said:
When does the mental body or gandharva come in to all this ?

The question that has been bugging me for a while is how such a set of aggregates is held together after the parting of the mind and body. If the sense-fields of the physical body no longer constitute part of the conciousness aggregate, then what is it that keeps the mental body or experience self-contained and personal to that mental continuum? If it's Vayu without the shell of the physical body to be enclosed by, how does it not dissipate into space? Is it like an apparitional self-projected hologram that either recognizes or fails to recognize it's display as baseless?

I need to get to Bardo 101 class.

Malcolm wrote:
The so-called mental body in the bardo is in fact made of the matter of the element of air, as Greg mentioned above. It has complete sense organs and so on, because consciousness and vāyu are inseparable. It is a special point of Dzogchen, in fact, that there are no realms which are utterly devoid of matter, including the formless realms. The idea that the formless realm is utterly lacks matter Sarvastivadin idea which is also maintained in Mahāyāna and general Secret Mantra, except Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: The Twelve Linked Chain and The Between State
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Preta, Asura, Deva and Naraka would not be subject to Dependent Origination...

PS Name and Form arise well before being (bhava) and birth (jati).

Malcolm wrote:
Hell beings, pretas, devas and asuras all have five aggregates. Only formless realm beings lack all five aggregates, having only one aggregate since they lack the rūpa, vedana, saṃjñā and saṃskara skandhas.

Sherab Dorje said:
I've heard explanations that it is due to the fact that hell beings do not have form that they are capable of being tormented and surviving tortures that would otherwise completely destroy a being that has form.

Malcolm wrote:
You are mixing up Mahāyāna and Hināyāna definitions. From the Hinayāna POV, hell beings and pretas have physical bodies and locations.

Even in Mahāyāna however, hells beings are constantly destroyed and revived since they have emanational birth, like bardo beings, pretas and devas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Queequeg said:
But falling into tribalism definitely does not get us anywhere.

binocular said:
In terms of samsaric survival, tribalism seems to be a better way to organize society.

Malcolm wrote:
Only for people whose horizons do not include the understanding that all human beings are descendants of a small band of humans in S. Africa who survived a cataclysm about 75,000 years ago.

Tribalism bears the implication that those who are not "the people" are not even human.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Besides, I hate football.

Queequeg said:
You see? Malcom hates America.

Malcolm wrote:
This comment is rather typical of the kind of misrepresentation in which Trumpistas school their adherents.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just as a parent can show a child something sweet, a proper teacher can show you your own state directly, without any words.

Astus said:
What good is a mute teacher? The insentient constantly teach the Dharma.

"At this time, everything in the universe in ten directions—soil, earth, grass, and trees; fences, walls, tiles, and pebbles—performs the Buddha’s work."
(Dogen: Bendowa, BDK ed SBGZ vol 1, p 6)

"realizing the truth on seeing the peach blossoms, realizing the truth on hearing the sound of a bamboo, and realizing the truth on seeing a bright star, are all examples of the sutras producing good counselors."
(Dogen: Bukkyo, BDK ed SBGZ vol 3, p 140)

"The causes and conditions of eighty-thousand such Dharma aggregates are, in every case, the establishment of the mind. Some [people] have established the mind in a dream and attained the truth; some have established the mind in drunkenness and attained the truth; some establish the mind and attain the truth amid flying flowers and falling leaves; some establish the mind and attain the truth amid peach blossoms and green bamboo; some establish the mind and attain the truth in the heavens above; and some establish the mind and attain the truth in the sea."
(Dogen: Hotsu-mujoshin, BDK ed SBGZ vol 3, p 337)

Malcolm wrote:
A rock cannot point out to your own state. That is the difference between a rock and guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: The Twelve Linked Chain and The Between State
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In the bardo, one has all five aggregates.

Sherab Dorje said:
In the Chonyi bardo one has all five aggregates?  I would have thought that after the dissolution into the element of space one kisses their previous physical form goodbye.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, one has all five aggregates even in the bardo of dharmātā. When one passes through the bardo of the time of death, one assumes a new series of aggregates. This is why one hears and sees sound, lights and rays during the bardo of dharmatā. This is all very clearly described in the Dzogchen teachings on the bardo. But that is beyond the scope of Q's question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: The Twelve Linked Chain and The Between State
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Preta, Asura, Deva and Naraka would not be subject to Dependent Origination...

PS Name and Form arise well before being (bhava) and birth (jati).

Malcolm wrote:
Hell beings, pretas, devas and asuras all have five aggregates. Only formless realm beings lack all five aggregates, having only one aggregate since they lack the rūpa, vedana, saṃjñā and saṃskara skandhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: The Twelve Linked Chain and The Between State
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Which between state?  There is more than one.  It definitely operates in the Kyenay bardo (skye gnas bar do), the bardo of living.

Malcolm wrote:
The four or six bardos exist only in Dzogchen teachings, and specifically, they come from the man ngag sde tantras (and not sems sde or klong sde). Common Mahāyāna and even the tantras of the new schools have no knowledge of anything besides the so called srid pa'i bar ma do, the antarabhāva, the bardo of rebirth.

As to the question, yes, the twelve links operate in the bardo.

Queequeg said:
OK. So now I have several questions... but I'll stick to my first. Let's set aside the Dzogchen betweens for the time being.

The between state that I'm asking about is the period after the death of this body and the next birth.

It seems that not all of the links "operate" in between.

It would seem that only the first three links operate in between - ignorance, mental formations, consciousness. Name-and-form would already be birth.

Is that correct?

Malcolm wrote:
Dependent origination functions both serially and simultaneously. The way it does so is described in the beginning of chapter 3 of the Abhidharmakośa in much detail. The issue of the bardo is also addressed in chapter three, in relation too dependent origination.

In the bardo, one has all five aggregates.

If you read this chapter, you will understand the entire topic with respect to the bardo of rebirth. You will not understand the elaborated concept of the bardo discussed in Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, October 7th, 2016 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
binocular said:
No, I still want you to list some examples. Because I'm quite sure that for every action that you describe as "selfish," I'd probably call it "passionate," or "greedy," or "confident."

Sherab Dorje said:
And the difference is...

binocular said:
It appears I don't focus on various self-views the way many other people do.
Oh dear?  What is "Oh dear" about the Two Truths?
Heh. I guess I just am not a Mahayani.

Malcolm wrote:
One of the basic principles of deep ecology is developing a sense of what Naess calls an "ecological self," which he defines with reference to the Mahāyāna concept of absence of inherent nature.

Now, if you are not a Mahāyanī, what possible reason do you have for wanting to post here?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 6th, 2016 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: The Twelve Linked Chain and The Between State
Content:
Queequeg said:
Does the 12 Linked Chain of Causation operate in the between state?

Sherab Dorje said:
Which between state?  There is more than one.  It definitely operates in the Kyenay bardo (skye gnas bar do), the bardo of living.

Malcolm wrote:
The four or six bardos exist only in Dzogchen teachings, and specifically, they come from the man ngag sde tantras (and not sems sde or klong sde). Common Mahāyāna and even the tantras of the new schools have no knowledge of anything besides the so called srid pa'i bar ma do, the antarabhāva, the bardo of rebirth.

As to the question, yes, the twelve links operate in the bardo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 6th, 2016 at 10:08 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Unknown said:
As president, Trump and his brand of extremism would have more than a cultural outlet. Through their appointees, presidents have power in our everyday lives. Cabinet appointments and department hires run powerful federal agencies including the Department of Justice, Homeland Security, Department of Defense, State Department, Department of Interior and more. Trump and his campaign have mentioned these right-wing extremists as potential appointees: Rudy Giuliani, Joe Arpaio, Sarah Palin, Ben Carson, Chris Christie and Forrest Lucas, oil executive and animal rights opponent for Department of Interior. Perhaps scariest of all, Myron Ebell, a leading climate-change denier, is expected to head Trump’s EPA. Trump’s running mate, Indiana Gov. Mike Pence, is a fundamentalist Christian who pushed extreme anti-LGBT and anti-reproductive rights legislation as governor. With an administration like this, dissidents like Sanders supporters would have little hope of exerting any kind of influence.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/10/06/i-dont-like-hillary-clinton-or-the-democratic-party-im-voting-for-them-anyway/?utm_term=.5427ee882a82

How can any Buddhist in their right mind not vote against Trump?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 6th, 2016 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:


Astus said:
Just as you say, one has to arrive at the experience oneself, it cannot be handed over. What can be received are the words.

Malcolm wrote:
Just as a parent can show a child something sweet, a proper teacher can show you your own state directly, without any words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 6th, 2016 at 7:50 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is interesting that you seem to find the Trumpistas compelling and attractive.

Queequeg said:
It's interesting how pliable you are in now supporting Clinton. But why go there?

Here's an analogy.

I'm a Buffalo Bills fan, and I can always count on having my heart broken. Doesn't stop me from being amazed by Tom Brady cutting up our secondary. Even as I want to punch him in that puckered up mouth, the guy is the greatest to play the game. His game is beautiful.


Malcolm wrote:
I am not supporting Clinton, I am against Trump, and I find nothing admirable in him or his team of kmownothing fascists. As a result, your simile falls flat. Besides, I hate football.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, October 6th, 2016 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Queequeg said:
The VP debate was hard to watch.

Pence the Jock wiped the floor with Kaine the glee club dork.

That was your introduction to the guy who will actually run the day to day if Trump wins.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, absolutely not. Pence was supercilious, obtuse and evasive.

It is interesting that you seem to find the Trumpistas compelling and attractive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Astus said:
If you say that words are incapable of communicating the meaning, then no teaching is possible...

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot explain "sweet" to anyone. But when they taste it, they know exactly what you mean by sweet. Buddhahood is something to be shown in one's direct perception. It is a meaning that must be discovered before one can give it a word. It is not something that can be communicated with abstract concepts before it is experienced, despite Nāgārjuna's famous dictum about the necessity of convention for understanding the ultimate, since the two truths are deviations in themselves. There is only one truth and one stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
binocular said:
Oh well. I'm always amazed when promoting Buddhist views on a Buddhist forum gets characterized as problematic or defective somehow ...
Must be some advanced mystery that my hina mind couldn't possibly understand ...

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you are promoting "Buddhist views" at all, nor deep ecological ones. Deep Ecology is not a harbor for intolerance or extremism. That's why we can have monster truck deep ecologists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are using the word in its negative, Hinayāna sense. I am using the word in its positive, Vajrayāna sense.

binocular said:
Do you think cows, pigs, sheep, chicken, fish etc. freely and with delight give up their life so that humans can eat them?
Or that women are universally happy to risk health and life just so that they can have a "romantic" relationship with men?

Malcolm wrote:
Sounds like you want to turn the world into a celibate, vegan monastery. Good luck with that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is fine, but again this is for monks, who follow a path of renunciation.

binocular said:
No, it's for everyone who wants to live a sustainable lifestyle.

Malcolm wrote:
If you wish to life like  a monk. Please do. But count me out of your Troktskyist Vihara.


binocular said:
Attachment clouds thinking. It has nothing to do with the sensuous. As Tilopa told Naropa, "Objects are not the problem, clinging is."
And did Tilopa say that the pleasures of killing, raping, and pillaging are perefectly fine, as long as one doesn't cling to them?

Malcolm wrote:
Tilopa nowhere states that afflicted action is ok, in fact he says the opposite. I cannot imagine killing, raping or pillaging without it being driven by affliction.

This is quite a bit different than enjoying the pleasures of the senses free from affliction and clinging.



binocular said:
Gee! Sensual pleasures are great -- as long as one doesn't have to pay for them with one's health or life.
Avoiding sense pleasures does not ensure longevity or health, and in fact can hasten illness and untimely death.
Strawman.

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all, in Ayruveda and Tibetan medicine it is considered important for one's health to engage the senses with pleasurable things.


binocular said:
I'm talking about particular strains (worldly) of sensuality and attachment to them.

Malcolm wrote:
You did not specify this. That is why I objected.


binocular said:
Much of the Path has to do exactly with pursuing pleasures -- except that they are higher pleasures, not the pleasures connectd with the eight worldly gains and losses.

Malcolm wrote:
Higher pleasures? Such as?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
boda said:
Vital means indispensable to the continuation of life. You may be confusing this with indispensable to the continuation of lifestyle.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it means vital to one's life. You are superimposing a limitation Naess never makes. He is not a technophobe...

boda said:
We don't need to argue about the meaning of vital, it's in the dictionary. I think we can safely assume that Naess, and any who may have assisted, chose their words carefully.

Who said anything about technophobia?
... he [Naess] is quite pragmatic, for example, when commenting on point 5 he says: Point 5: People in the materially richest countries cannot be expected to reduce their excessive interference with the nonhuman world to a moderate level overnight. Less interference does not imply that humans should not modify some ecosystems as do other species. Humans have modified the earth and will probably continue to do so. At issue are the nature and extent of such interference.
Yes that's the issue I've brought up. If everyone in rural communities across the globe owned a 4-wheel drive vehicle that would be extending the interference even more than it is today.

Malcolm wrote:
People in the materially richest countries cannot be expected to reduce their excessive interference with the nonhuman world to a moderate level overnight.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 7:02 AM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:



Queequeg said:
It should be pointed out on the other side... in Hilary's propaganda, all immigrants are Joseph and Mary and baby Jesus, or rather Jose, Maria and Jesus, blacks are the crucified conscience of the nation, women are all Rosie the Riveter, gays are the paradigm of love and marriage, and white men are the devil, unless they're dorky dads like Tim Kaine.

The whole election is a Marvel v. DC comicon.


Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, I would rather have Hillary's saccharine propaganda than the dystopian vision Trump thrives upon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 7:01 AM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Contradicts what you write here:

Astus said:
Even if we consider buddhas in other worlds, it makes no difference, that was what I intended to point out. Nevertheless, what Shakyamuni taught is what we have in the scriptures.


Malcolm wrote:
No, what the Buddha taught can never be captured in words, no more than one can capture the taste of sweet in words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then you should understand that there is only a tiny fraction in this world system, and not one of them reaches the meaning of "direct perception."

Astus said:
As Linji said,

"Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch. Make no mistake, worthy Chan men! If you don’t find it here and now, you’ll go on transmigrating through the three realms for myriads of kalpas and thousands of lives, and, held in the clutch of captivating circumstances, be born in the wombs of asses or cows."
(Record of Linji, p 8, tr Sasaki)


Malcolm wrote:
Contradicts what you write here:
What teachings are not found in the sutras? If they are not in the sutras, they could not have been taught by the Buddha, consequently they are not even Buddhist teachings, much less Zen.
And it implies that knowledge of reality is something pointed out by a master in a student's direct perception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: 本佛 a/k/a Primordial Buddha
Content:
Queequeg said:
I don't know if Himalayan Buddhism has parallels here.

Malcolm wrote:
It is derived from iṣṭa-devatā, etc., personal deity as noted (Tibetan, yid dam, literally, mental commitment).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Funny thought that, thinking that Buddha's teachings are confined to extant sūtras, since only a tiny fraction of sūtras in toto exist in this world system. Then of course there is the issue of tantras...

Astus said:
Tantras are not different from sutras, they are both scriptures (jing 經) of the canon. And what the teachings (jiao 教) refer to are the words of the Buddha.

As Zongmi wrote:

"The sutras are buddha word, while Chan is the intention of the buddhas."
(Zongmi on Chan, p 109)

And as the later tradition, maintained, in the words of Hyujeong:

"The branches of Seon and Doctrine were Kāśyapa and Ānanda. To use no words to reach the wordless is Seon; to use words to reach the wordless is Doctrine. So then the mind is the Seon dharma (method) and language is the Doctrine dharma."
(Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 59)

Malcolm wrote:
Then you should understand that there is only a tiny fraction in this world system, and not one of them reaches the meaning of "direct perception."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: 本佛 a/k/a Primordial Buddha
Content:
Queequeg said:
I substituted "tutelary deity" for "object of devotion" as the translation of 本尊 ( honzon, as in Gohonzon ). It doesn't quite work, but I think it conveys a little more of the nuance that the word "honzon" is supposed to mean.


Malcolm wrote:
Google translate gives: "Principal image"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Question about Tilopa's Six Advices
Content:
conebeckham said:
These days, so much about Mahamudra (and Dzogchen) has been published, people can search the internet and come across all sorts of right (and wrong) information, as far as it goes.

I do think the true meaning of Tilopa's advice, and that of Virupa and Maitripa's, as well, can only really be understood via transmission from a living, breathing, lineage-holding guru.  But---people will talk about it, scholars will write about it.......we can only do our best to eliminate confusion, but we certainly cannot give transmission over Dharma Wheel.

Malcolm wrote:
Come on cone, a real siddha could, you know, like Jax.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
AlexMcLeod said:
As for the saying we are discussing means teachings that aren't written down in sutra. Why would someone writing about such things write them down if they know they can't be written down?

Astus said:
What teachings are not found in the sutras? If they are not in the sutras, they could not have been taught by the Buddha, consequently they are not even Buddhist teachings, much less Zen.

Malcolm wrote:
Funny thought that, thinking that Buddha's teachings are confined to extant sūtras, since only a tiny fraction of sūtras in toto exist in this world system. Then of course there is the issue of tantras...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha Post?
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I forgot to tell you— I belong to the monster truck wing of Deep Ecology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Question about Tilopa's Six Advices
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Maybe it has something to do with this: The four syllables ( yi-ge bzhi ) tradition, found widely among the various Kagyu lineages, derives from Maitripa, who together with Naropa were the main Indian spiritual teachers of Marpa. It explains mahamudra in terms of the hidden meaning of the four syllables of the Sanskrit word amanasi ( yid-la ma-byed-pa ), which means “not taking to mind” or “not paying attention (incorrectly).” The four syllables connote:
1. cutting down to the foundational root state of the conventional mind,
2. gaining certainty with the methods for quieting and settling the mind in concentration,
3. severing the mind’s connection with points where it can deviate into conceptual cognition of true existence and into destructive states,
4. transforming the mind into the nature of pathways of deep awareness.
from http://studybuddhism.com/web/en/archives/advanced/mahamudra/gelug_kagyu_mm/gelug_kaguy_mm_dhargyey.html

Just a guess.


Malcolm wrote:
I think this is correct since it corresponds precisely with the four topics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
boda said:
Maybe there is confusion concerning "vital needs." What exactly does vital needs mean to you?

Malcolm wrote:
When one lives in a rural area, a 4-wheel drive vehicle is a vital need.

boda said:
Vital means indispensable to the continuation of life. You may be confusing this with indispensable to the continuation of lifestyle.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it means vital to one's life. You are superimposing a limitation Naess never makes. He is not a technophobe, he is quite pragmatic, for example, when commenting on point 5 he says:

Point 5: People in the materially richest countries cannot be expected to reduce their excessive interference with the nonhuman world to a moderate level overnight. Less interference does not imply that humans should not modify some ecosystems as do other species. Humans have modified the earth and will probably continue to do so. At issue are the nature and extent of such interference.
Naess, Arne (2009-05-01). The Ecology of Wisdom: Writings by Arne Naess (p. 113). Counterpoint. Kindle Edition.

So we do our best.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Vajrapani in sutric context
Content:
tingdzin said:
Very interesting post; I stand corrected about Vajrapani and he Pali Canon.

I wonder how those Buddhist modernists who claim that there are no "supernatural" elements in "original" Buddhism would acvcount for this incident -- maybe calling it a "later interpolation" to the Sutta, or something like that.

Malcolm wrote:
Obviously they were all added by New Agers in the 1980's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha Post?
Content:
conebeckham said:
there was a state of original purity

Malcolm wrote:
There is a state of original purity. It has no temporal existence however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, October 5th, 2016 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: Is the Dharmakaya unconditioned and uncaused?
Content:
prsvrnc said:
Yes! The dharmakaya is uncaused. Explanation and source? I am looking for one...

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, it depends on who you ask. For example, the Āryalaṅkāvatāra-nāma-mahāyānasūtravṛttitathāgatahṛdayālaṃkāra maintains that the dharmakāya is obtained from gathering the two accumulations. It also refers to the tathāgatagarbha as the cause which is compatible with the dharmakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Question about Tilopa's Six Advices
Content:
conebeckham said:
Malcolm, thanks for posting that.
"Syllables".....what's the Tibetan word for that?  Perhaps that may clarify....?

Malcolm wrote:
Yi ge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Question about Tilopa's Six Advices
Content:
rachmiel said:
So what *are* the four syllables?


Malcolm wrote:
That is a good question. I don't know. All I know is that is the title of the text. But I suspect it refers to the four topics of the text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Question about Tilopa's Six Advices
Content:
rachmiel said:
Wunderbar! Thanks ... lots to digest here.

Are "na-mo gu-ruve" the actual four syllables? What do they mean ... or are they just sounds?

Malcolm wrote:
Namo Guruve means "Homage to the Guru."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
binocular said:
There are proper uses of the requisites: "[3] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by using? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, uses the robe simply to counteract cold, to counteract heat, to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; simply for the purpose of covering the parts of the body that cause shame.

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses almsfood, not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification; but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, thinking, 'Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.'

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses lodging simply to counteract cold, to counteract heat, to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; simply for protection from the inclemencies of weather and for the enjoyment of seclusion.

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses medicinal requisites that are used for curing the sick simply to counteract any pains of illness that have arisen and for maximum freedom from disease.

"The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to use these things [in this way] do not arise for him when he uses them [in this way]. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by using.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

Malcolm wrote:
This is fine, but again this is for monks, who follow a path of renunciation.


binocular said:
However, it appears that such attachment to sensuality impedes clear thinking as far as environmental issues go, as evidenced by the industrial age and its results.

Malcolm wrote:
Attachment clouds thinking. It has nothing to do with the sensuous. As Tilopa told Naropa, "Objects are not the problem, clinging is."


binocular said:
Gee! Sensual pleasures are great -- as long as one doesn't have to pay for them with one's health or life.

Malcolm wrote:
Avoiding sense pleasures does not ensure longevity or health, and in fact can hasten illness and untimely death.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
binocular said:
There are proper uses of the requisites: "[3] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by using? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, uses the robe simply to counteract cold, to counteract heat, to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; simply for the purpose of covering the parts of the body that cause shame.

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses almsfood, not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification; but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, thinking, 'Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.'

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses lodging simply to counteract cold, to counteract heat, to counteract the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; simply for protection from the inclemencies of weather and for the enjoyment of seclusion.

"Reflecting appropriately, he uses medicinal requisites that are used for curing the sick simply to counteract any pains of illness that have arisen and for maximum freedom from disease.

"The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to use these things [in this way] do not arise for him when he uses them [in this way]. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by using.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html
This is fine, but again this is for monks, who follow a path of renunciation.

However, it appears that such attachment to sensuality impedes clear thinking as far as environmental issues go, as evidenced by the industrial age and its results.
Attachment clouds thinking. It has nothing to do with the sensuous. As Tilopa told Naropa, "Objects are not the problem, clinging is."

Malcolm wrote:
Only uptight, contracted people have a problem with sensuality.

binocular said:
Gee! Sensual pleasures are great -- as long as one doesn't have to pay for them with one's health or life.

Malcolm wrote:
Avoiding sense pleasures does not ensure longevity or health, and in fact can hasten illness and untimely death.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Question about Tilopa's Six Advices
Content:
rachmiel said:
Big thanks to everyone who participated in this thread! Here's the main thing I learned from it:

If you pluck a teaching from the body of dharma teachings without understanding its context (Buddhist school, lineage, time period, etc.) no matter how much this teaching resonates with you (as Tilopa does with me) you run the risk of misunderstanding the context therefore missing the exact message the teacher intended to communicate, all of which could hamper your personal progress to realization.

It's a good lesson for me to learn. But, just so you know, my take on realization is perhaps a bit different from the conventional Buddhist take. (I am not a Buddhist, but deeply appreciate some Buddhist teachings.) I think realization is our birthright ... built into the package of being human. And I think "the other shore" is the same other shore regardless of what method one ends up taking to get there: swimming, snorkeling, rafting, surfing, flying, perhaps even walking on water ... I see Tilopa's advices as instructions for building and navigating a certain kind of raft. If I misinterpret them (in terms of his intended meaning), then I end up with a different raft. But different doesn't mean useless ... or perhaps not even inferior. It's just ... different, Tilopa's intended meaning filtered through me. So I don't mind the potential misunderstanding so much, in fact I kind of welcome it, I feel it gives me room to be creative with applying the teaching to my path.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there is always Dombhi Heruka's Four Syllables:

Namo Guruve. 
The Intimate Instruction of the Great Bliss of Dharma
There are three essences, four commitments, three deviations and four methods of resting.
The three essences: Effortlessness
Without contrivance
Everything that occurs is understood as one's own mind.
The four commitments: Afflictions are not abandoned because they are one's mind. 
Antidotes are not relied upon because the mind is non-dual. 
The true nature is not meditated upon because mind is without grasping.
A result is not hoped for, realizing the mind itself is Buddhahood.
The three deviations: If there is hope for Buddhahood, it is a deviation.
If there is fear towards Samsara, it is a deviation.
If there is attachment to appearances, it is a deviation.
The four methods of resting: Just like the limpid quality of water when it is undisturbed, rest relaxed in uncontrived mind.
Just as a bird in the sky leaves no tracks, consciousness rests without support.
Just like the sun not concealed by clouds, rest in one’s own unobstructed state relaxing into the objects of the six sense organs.
Just like water always falling, rest undistracted at all times and in all activities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
boda said:
Maybe there is confusion concerning "vital needs." What exactly does vital needs mean to you?

Malcolm wrote:
When one lives in a rural area, a 4-wheel drive vehicle is a vital need. When one lives in a large town or a city, a personal vehicle is not a vital need. For example, until 1997, I never owned a car, nor did I have a drivers license because I did not need either. They were not vital needs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is a celebration of the sensuous.

binocular said:
The celebration of the sensuous is the pipe dream of males who are still relatively healthy and wealthy.

Malcolm wrote:
You are using the word in its negative, Hinayāna sense. I am using the word in its positive, Vajrayāna sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 7:12 AM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As far as I know, the Democrats are only accused of wanting to dismantle the least important of the amendments, the 2nd.

Queequeg said:
So... based on your latest posts on the issue of politics... have you reconciled yourself with voting for Clinton?

Malcolm wrote:
I am voting to eliminate Trump, following Bernie's suggestion. First things first. We will deal with Clinton later.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 7:11 AM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Queequeg said:
Well, at least they're cool with the 13th amendment.

Malcolm wrote:
They have to be, after all they are nominally "The Party of Lincoln."

On the other hand, the 13th amendment does not totally eradicate slavery, and permits the monetization of incarceration. So of course Republicans won't want to dismantle legalized slavery in the United States of America.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Vasana said:
The only requirement for subscribing to the 8 points is that you percieve them to be an accurate assessment and means to engage with the world and it's variety of sentient beings.

boda said:
Actually the 8th point is an obligation to act in accord with the previous points. .

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, either " directly or indirectly."

boda said:
this kind of action requires a commitment to "vital needs," which would mean a sacrifice in sensual needs. Perhaps that's what binocular was getting at

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all. Don't confuse Deep Ecology as some sort of ecoasceticism. It is in fact the opposite. It is a celebration of the sensuous. One of the more famous  books in the Deep Ecology is called The Spell of the Sensuous, arguing that this environmental debacle arose in large part because human beings have become alienated from the sensuous. We have cut ourselves off from our biosphere by trapping ourselves in abstractions, and so, having forgotten it in our deepest sense consciousnesses, we destroy it without noticing it anymore.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:


Queequeg said:
Republicans



Malcolm wrote:
= supporting stop and frisk, racist immigration policies, unfettered military spending, restricted access for women's health care, dismantling the separation of Church and State, in other words supporting the dismantling of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 14th, 15th, 16th, and 24th amendments, you know, the most important ones.

As far as I know, the Democrats are only accused of wanting to dismantle the least important of the amendments, the 2nd.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Come on, David, everyone knows that the Buddha was a deep green/ left biocentrist, which is why his Dharma is so unpopular these days...there were only a few people in the 80's and 90's who were interested in it.

binocular said:
He was a monk. Doing things suitable for monks, behooving monks.


Malcolm wrote:
You need a sense of humor. Somehow yours was amputated. I hear though that they have really promising research in humor regeneration therapy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Question about Tilopa's Six Advices
Content:
florin said:
And that is why these explanations are aimed at people who were already introduced to the real state beyond cause and effect already and only need certain clarifications of how to maintain that view in a practical way (symbolic transmission) in order to receive the direct transmission that cannot be given by any human.

Malcolm wrote:
A transmission that cannot be given is a contradiction in terms, don't you think?

florin said:
That's how they call it.
The idea is that there is no human involved since that is the moment when the practitioner recognizes and rests in the secret state of the real teacher, that is one's own state.

Malcolm wrote:
The words in Tibetan brgyud, lineage, which makes more sense in context. In this case you are talking about the rgyal ba'i dgongs brgyud ( jinasamatīparaṃparā ), the lineage of the transcendent state of the Victors. Transcendent state ( samatī ) means you abide one pointedly in the knowledge of reality 24/7/365 since your knowledge is beyond time. This is also called, in Dzogchen literature, the union of day and night.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
hotair.jpg (90.22 KiB) Viewed 2141 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Come on, David, everyone knows that the Buddha was a deep green/ left biocentrist, which is why his Dharma is so unpopular these days...there were only a few people in the 80's and 90's who were interested in it.

Queequeg said:
Buddha was a Republican.

David N. Snyder said:
One could probably make an argument that Buddha is closest to any of the other major political parties (U.S.) too, if you selectively look to certain Buddhist principles or sutras/suttas.

The Buddha was for hard work, individual effort, individual responsibility. The Buddha was pro-life. Therefore, the Buddha was a Republican.

The Buddha was for hard work, individual effort, individual responsibility. Buddhism has precepts, but they are voluntary and nothing was compulsory in terms of commandments. Therefore, the Buddha was a Libertarian.

The Buddha was the ultra-Compassionate One; spoke out against greed, attachments, worldly desires. Therefore, the Buddha was a Democrat.

The Buddha was the ultra-Compassionate One; wanted to help all out of suffering; knew that human birth was rare and we must protect the only home we have. Therefore, the Buddha was an environmentalist / Green Party.

In other words, whatever your political belief, you can find Buddhist principles to fit into that view, except for fascism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: Question about Tilopa's Six Advices
Content:
florin said:
And that is why these explanations are aimed at people who were already introduced to the real state beyond cause and effect already and only need certain clarifications of how to maintain that view in a practical way (symbolic transmission) in order to receive the direct transmission that cannot be given by any human.

Malcolm wrote:
A transmission that cannot be given is a contradiction in terms, don't you think?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
To be a deep ecologist, one merely has to subscribe the eight-point platform.

binocular said:
There is an unsaid there: What are the requirements in order to be able to subscribe to the eight-point platform?
It seems to me that without either a firm committment to sensuality, or a firm committment to karma and rebirth, one cannot subscribe to the eight-point platform.

You noted that my point about karma and rebirth was short-sighted. I pointed out the problems with sensuality.

Malcolm wrote:
Only uptight, contracted people have a problem with sensuality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, October 4th, 2016 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Queequeg said:
Buddha was a Republican.

binocular said:
Talk about men, women, horses (or donkeys, in this case), and elephants!
/.../
Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the meeting hall and, on arrival, sat down on a seat made ready. As he was sitting there, he addressed the monks: "For what topic of conversation are you gathered together here? In the midst of what topic of conversation have you been interrupted?"

"Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not."

"It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not.

"There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful — to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.069.than.html

Malcolm wrote:
This is for monks. We are not monks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2016 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: BumShi in English? Bon Traditional Tibetan Medicine tantras
Content:
mahabuddha said:
Is the Bon Traditional Tibetan Medicine tantras, BumShi, translated in English? Does it still exist in Tibetan? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Yours in the Dharma,
Chimed Dorjee


Malcolm wrote:
It still exists in Tibetan and is 98 percent identical with the rgyud bzhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2016 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


binocular said:
And I would still like to see why you think my suggestion from before is short-sighted.

Malcolm wrote:
To be a deep ecologist, one merely has to subscribe the eight-point platform. I don't recall seeing a requirement for belief in rebirth and karma included.

The Deep Ecology Platform

1. The well-being and flourishing of human and nonhuman life on Earth have value in themselves (synonyms: inherent worth, intrinsic value, inherent value). These values are independent of the usefulness of the nonhuman world for human purposes.

2. Richness and diversity of life forms contribute to the realization of these values and are also values in themselves.

3. Humans have no right to reduce this richness and diversity except to satisfy vital needs.

4. Present human interference with the nonhuman world is excessive, and the situation is rapidly worsening.

5. The flourishing of human life and cultures is compatible with a substantial decrease of the human population. The flourishing of nonhuman life requires such a decrease.

6. Policies must therefore be changed. The changes in policies affect basic economic, technological, and ideological structures. The resulting state of affairs will be deeply different from the present.

7. The ideological change is mainly that of appreciating life quality (dwelling in situations of inherent worth) rather than adhering to an increasingly higher standard of living. There will be a profound awareness of the difference between big and great.

8. Those who subscribe to the foregoing points have an obligation directly or indirectly to participate in the attempt to implement the necessary changes.

—Arne Naess and George Sessions (1984)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2016 at 10:39 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You have not demonstrated anything of the sort.

binocular said:
Of course I have. DE's claims have left no traction in this mind of mine. And I know I'm not the only one who remains unimpressed by DE.
You (plural) can blame us all you want. My point is that the goals of DE may be noble, but the method in which its proponents sometimes disseminate their ideas and the attitude they have toward people is not helping to win supporters for DE's cause. Someone called them "the ivory tower brigade", which I find quite fitting.

I request that you substantiate why you think that my view is short-sighted: I don't think that the goals of deep ecology can be effectively pursued other than by a commitment to a belief in karma and rebirth (or even a belief in serial reincarnation may be necessary) and to according action.

Malcolm wrote:
This is short sighted.
1. Left biocentrism is a left focus or theoretical tendency within the
deep ecology movement,
/.../
10. To be politically relevant, deep ecology needs to incorporate the
perspective advanced by left biocentrism.
http://home.ca.inter.net/~greenweb/lbprimer.htm

binocular said:
I don't disagree with any of that, but I think it's insufficient as a philosophical framework.

My issue with various secular approaches is that secularists refuse to or are unable to teach people how to find ultimate satisfaction in what in dharmic terms would be considered sensual or worldly pursuits. (Schumacher had to turn to religion.)

I once bought a camera; it came with a user manual and one of the sections of the manual said "Learn how to enjoy presentations". Well, the manual didn't teach how to enjoy presentations, it just taught how to make them. I felt betrayed. It didn't deliver what it promised. This same experience repeats with so many secular propositions for how to find worth and meaning in this world and in worldly pursuits: they don't deliver.

Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas are fleeting and so are the pleasures that come with them. This is undeniable, and people do know that, even if just intuitively.
Yes, trees, meadows, clean rivers, giraffes etc. etc. are beautiful, but the pleasures one gets from them are fleeting, and therefore cannot serve as a reliable foundation for changing one's attitude to life and the world.

Malcolm wrote:
What aattitude toward life and the world should one have?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, October 3rd, 2016 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


kirtu said:
Secondly social democracy is most definitely not capitalism with benefits.  It is capitalism contained and controlled and made safer

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry Kirt, but what you describe is merely "capitalism with benefits." And you really cannot make capitalism "safer." This is like "clean" coal, or "safe" nuclear plants, i.e., contradictions in terms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2016 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I forgot to ask if these teachings included intensive practice under their guidance, or were in the form of academic encounters.

Astus said:
None were particularly academic, I have spent various length of time with various teachers. But if you are interested in details, just send me a PM here or on FB.


Malcolm wrote:
I was just curious. For example, it is well known that I spent three years in a solitary retreat in the mid 90's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2016 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Would you vote to legalize marijuana?
Content:
David N. Snyder said:
Polling so far:

DWT: 17-4 for legalizing
DWM: 26-0 for legalizing

Mahayanists are generally known to be more liberal than Theravadins.

Rakz said:
I am a hard nosed conservative on just about every issue except for this and prostitution.

Malcolm wrote:
This just means you are a Libertarian, a.k.a., a Republican who smokes weed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2016 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Rakz said:
Buddha was not a Republican but most definitely a man of highly conservative moral values.

Malcolm wrote:
How so? He dissed the conservative faction of Brahmanical society, he dissed social norms by ditching his family, he dissed social norms by preaching against the varna system, he dissed social norms by refusing to support any side in a violent conflict, he dissed social norms by following the Jains in permitting the ordination of women, etc. By the standards of his day, the Buddha was in fact a radical liberal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2016 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Unknown said:
1. Left biocentrism is a left focus or theoretical tendency within the
deep ecology movement, which is subversive of the existing industrial
society. It accepts and promotes the eight-point Deep Ecology Platform
drawn up by Arne Naess and George Sessions. Left biocentrism holds up
as an ideal, identification, solidarity, and compassion  with all life. "Left"
as used in left biocentrism, means anti-industrial and anti-capitalist, but
not necessarily socialist. The expressions 'left biocentrism' or 'left
ecocentrism' are used interchangeably.


2. Left biocentrism accepts the view that the Earth belongs to no one.
While raising a number of criticisms, left biocentrism is meant to
strengthen, not undermine, the deep ecology movement which identifies
with all life.


3. Left biocentrism says that individuals must take responsibility for
their actions and be socially accountable. Part of being individually
responsible is to practice voluntary simplicity, so as to minimize one's
own impact upon the Earth.


4. Left biocentrists are concerned with social justice and class issues,
but within a context of ecology. To move to a deep ecology world, the
human species must be mobilized, and a concern for social justice is a
necessary part of this mobilization. Left biocentrism is for the
redistribution of wealth, nationally and internationally.


5. Left biocentrism opposes economic growth and consumerism.
Human societies must live within ecological limits so that all other
species may continue to flourish. We believe that bioregionalism,
not globalism, is necessary for sustainability. The perspective of the
late German Green philosopher Rudolf Bahro is accepted that, for
world-wide sustainability, industrialized countries need to reduce
their impact upon the Earth to about one tenth of what it is at the
present time. It is also incumbent upon non-industrialized nations to
become sustainable and it is necessary for industrialized nations to
help on this path.


6. Left biocentrism holds that individual and collective spiritual
transformation is important to bring about major social change, and to
break with industrial society. We need inward transformation, so that
the interests of all species override the short-term self-interest of the
individual, the family, the community, and the nation.


7. Left biocentrism believes that deep ecology must be applied to
actual environmental issues and struggles, no matter how socially
sensitive, e.g. population reduction, aboriginal issues, workers'
struggles, etc.


8. Social ecology, eco-feminism and eco-marxism, while raising
important questions, are all human-centered and consider human-to-
human relations within society to be more important and, in the final
analysis, determine society's relationship to the natural world. Left
biocentrism believes that an egalitarian, non-sexist, non-discriminating
society, a highly desirable goal, can still be exploitive towards the Earth.


9. Left biocentrists are "movement greens" in basic orientation. They
are critical of existing Green political parties, which have come to an
accommodation with industrial society and have no accountability to the
deep ecology movement.


10. To be politically relevant, deep ecology needs to incorporate the
perspective advanced by left biocentrism.

Malcolm wrote:
http://home.ca.inter.net/~greenweb/lbprimer.htm


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2016 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Would you vote to decriminalize marijuana?
Content:
Bakmoon said:
Absolutely right. Just look at what added sugar and fatty food has done to the health of the U.S.

Malcolm wrote:
And Latin American, China, India, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2016 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I have no interest in convincing you of anything. So far, you have not given me a reason to be interested in doing so since it seems you have not even investigated the basic texts of deep ecology.

binocular said:
I've just demonstrated that the proponents of deep ecology don't find much traction in this world....

Malcolm wrote:
You have not demonstrated anything of the sort.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2016 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
At this point, it would be apropos to ask from whom you learned Zen/Chan yourself. What is your lineage? Are you just going based on things that you have read, or have you actually practiced Zen/Chan under the direction and guidance of a qualified master.

Astus said:
It does not seem to be a relevant question to me. What difference does it make in discussing interpretations? But if you want to know.

I have learnt
- Chan from Shi Mingzheng, Shi Minglai, John Crook, Simon Child
- Seon from Antal Dobosy, Wu Bong SSN, Chong An Sunim JDPSN
- Zen from Sozui Zenni, Shodo Harada, Yvon Myoken Bec

Malcolm wrote:
I forgot to ask if these teachings included intensive practice under their guidance, or were in the form of academic encounters.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, October 2nd, 2016 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I disagree with the premise that you presented, i.e., "the goals of deep ecology cannot be pursued effectively without a commitment to a belief in karma and rebirth." I think it is short-sighted. Have you even have read Naess, Orton, Shiva, etc.?

binocular said:
I'm giving you the opportunity to convince me that deep ecology and a secular approach are worth it and suffice. So far, you have not done that.

Malcolm wrote:
I have no interest in convincing you of anything. So far, you have not given me a reason to be interested in doing so since it seems you have not even investigated the basic texts of deep ecology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:


Queequeg said:
And these programs squelched by the Republican saint spontaneously came into being?

Malcolm wrote:
They were a public reaction of Anglo guilt, signed into law by Johnson, at how poorly black people were treated. The guilt wore off.

Then the usual racist and sexist recriminations began to be repeated again [even while social welfare programs for capitalists were expanded at an astonishing rate], and welfare programs, never more than a small fraction of the budget, were undermined and eliminated, especially under Clinton.

In other words, Republicans definitely believe in corporate welfare. They just don't believe in welfare for the poor, women, blacks and latinos.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
binocular said:
I don't think that the goals of deep ecology can be effectively pursued other than by a commitment to a belief in karma and rebirth (or even a belief in serial reincarnation may be necessary) and to according action.

Malcolm wrote:
This is short sighted.

binocular said:
And with replies like that, you wonder why people aren't all that interested in deep ecology ...

Malcolm wrote:
I disagree with the premise that you presented, i.e., "the goals of deep ecology cannot be pursued effectively without a commitment to a belief in karma and rebirth." I think it is short-sighted. Have you even have read Naess, Orton, Shiva, etc.?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Buddha is Trump?

Malcolm wrote:
It's the reverse:
buddhatrump.jpg (39.02 KiB) Viewed 4752 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
At this point, it would be apropos to ask from whom you learned Zen/Chan yourself. What is your lineage? Are you just going based on things that you have read, or have you actually practiced Zen/Chan under the direction and guidance of a qualified master.

Astus said:
It does not seem to be a relevant question to me. What difference does it make in discussing interpretations?


Malcolm wrote:
It is Buddhadharma. If one does not have the aural lineage, one's opinions mean squat.

Thanks for being candid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Democrats and Republicans
Content:
Queequeg said:
On social economic policy, the fundamental difference between the philosophies of the two major American political parties is this:

Republicans believe in individual cause and effect. One should reap the effects of one's actions, benefits and consequences. In terms of welfare, this translates to general opposition.

Malcolm wrote:
Republicans do not in fact believe these things, unless one happens to be poor, female, black, or latino.

Queequeg said:
...In terms of welfare, this translates to no strings attached welfare programs.

Malcolm wrote:
This is so absurd as to be laughable. There are no such welfare programs. Any that may have existed briefly in the 1970's were squelched immediately by Reagan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
AlexMcLeod said:
Actually, I completely agree with his definition, and come from a different lineage.

Astus said:
What sources do you base that on?


Malcolm wrote:
At this point, it would be apropos to ask from whom you learned Zen/Chan yourself. What is your lineage? Are you just going based on things that you have read, or have you actually practiced Zen/Chan under the direction and guidance of a qualified master.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The world badly needs an alternative to capitalism that isn't communism, in my view.

kirtu said:
It has it already:  Dutch, German, Scandinavian social democracy.

Malcolm wrote:
Social Democracy is a weak model that as someone else mentioned is being steamrolled by neoliberalism, austerity economics, and sadly, nativism.

Why? Because it is capitalism with benefits, that's all. But once the market turns sour, austerity measure are adopted and scapegoating begins.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 8:33 PM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The world badly needs an alternative to capitalism that isn't communism, in my view.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is called deep ecology/ left biocentrism, where "left" does not mean Marxist or even Socialist, but merely anti-capitalist.

Wayfarer said:
I am keen about such ideas, but I think the problem is they don't really constitute an alternative economic model. They tend to be fringe, in the way that 'green parties' are generally parties of protest, rather than genuine alternative governments.

It would take a lot to create a real alternative economic model. I think one of the many enormous structural problems, is that consumerism and endless growth and the stimulation of desire is essential to the capitalist model. Imagine if you had a model where the ideal was 'cultivation of wisdom'? It is actually hard to imagine - but I suppose that is one of the ideas behind a classical book in this tradition, Schumacher's 'Small is Beautiful'. It would take more than a different economic model, more like a very different mentality.  Actually, I guess Schumacher is a good model in this area.  I admit, I haven't done a lot of study about these things. (I have got The Value of Nothing, by Raj Patel, and I think I have Prosperity without Growth here somewhere.)

I guess, to be honest, I would actually be in a position to get 'off the grid' if I converted all my city equity into a country freehold (I'm in one of the most expensive cities in the world to own property, as it happens). But, wife is totally against such ideas.

Malcolm wrote:
Schumacher is a good start.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
binocular said:
I don't think that the goals of deep ecology can be effectively pursued other than by a commitment to a belief in karma and rebirth (or even a belief in serial reincarnation may be necessary) and to according action.

Malcolm wrote:
This is short sighted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 8:18 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
I will not vote for anyone who advocates war, which is the mass murder of mother-beings based on greed and hatred
People can say a vote for A is really a vote for B all day long. I say a vote for A is primarily a vote for A. I will not take responsibility for the circus that are the DNC and GOP.
It's truly sad both major parties have legitimized endless warfare, and the average citizen seems a-okay with this.
Out of sight, out of mind.


Malcolm wrote:
In this case, the choice is between a somewhat hawkish policy wonk, and someone who will start a nuclear war. The decision is up to you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Would you vote to decriminalize marijuana?
Content:
Bakmoon said:
I'm opposed to the use of marijuana and other drugs,

Malcolm wrote:
That's silly. For example, there are proven clinical uses for mushrooms, LSD, etc. And, dropping acid will definitely change your mind. But it is a rather one dimensional experience.

Bakmoon said:
substance abuse problems are public health issues

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, but substance abuse is not confined to so called "drugs." If it were, we would not have the various health epidemics we do.

Bakmoon said:
Also, decriminalization places the production of marijuana squarely in the hands of legit businesses and stops the profits from lining the pockets of violent gangs and drug cartels. It seems to have worked nicely in Colorado, with an actual decrease in crime and very nice increases in state revenue.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Would you vote to decriminalize marijuana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Massachusetts too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: "transmission outside the scriptures"
Content:
Jeff said:
Sure they do.

krodha said:
Nah.

Malcolm wrote:
Seconded. Can we have a vote now?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
They just go on about bodhisattvas not being bodhisattvas and sentient beings not being sentient beings.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is a trivialization of Prajñāpāramitā. But since you are in this hypercritical mood, well enjoy! (but being critical shortens one's life considerably).

Crazywisdom said:
I don't respond well to threats. Lol


Malcolm wrote:
Not threatening, just observing. For example, Situ Panchen was a very staunch defender of the standard Madhyamaka view, but his guru told him to adopt the gzhan stong view because it would lengthen his life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Deep Ecology
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
It's not a dog, it's a poodle...

Malcolm wrote:
No, its more like the difference between a dog (numerous and shallow) and a wolf (few and deep).

Sherab Dorje said:
What I meant was that your quote did not contradict what I said, and your above statement just confirmed it.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure it contradicts what you said. You said:
Which would be a fatal error, since Deep Ecologists go to great efforts to show that they are not "just" environmentalists. That is why they consider themselves "deep" and everybody else "shallow".
The fundamental difference in approach is that shallow environmentalism seeks to maintain the industrial, capitalist, growth-oriented, market economy status quo.

Deep ecology is by definition anti-capitalist, anti-industrialist, and anti-class . To be a deep ecologist then is to consistently act in ways which foster the eventual elimination of capitalism, industrial civilization and class.

David Foreman's views on immigration, for example, are shallow inso far as they reinforce class distinctions by refusing to allow indigenous people impoverished by NAFTA from crossing into the USA on the excuse that "more people = more land degradation."

Forman's chief error, like his guru's Edward Abbey, is assuming there was ever a "wild" America. We know that Native People in the Americas systematically managed their environment in a manner which fostered the diversity and health of the ecosystem (after they systematically hunted American megafauna into extinction). The forest fires we experience regularly in the West are chiefly a result of shallow environmental practices which assumed an unpopulated primeval wilderness through which humans moved lightly, if at all.

And of course it is well known that Edward Abbey was a complete racist, whose views on ecology are anything but deep:
t might be wise for us as American citizens to consider calling a halt to the mass influx of even more millions of hungry, ignorant, unskilled, and culturally-morally-generically impoverished people. At least until we have brought our own affairs into order. Especially when these uninvited millions bring with them an alien mode of life which - let us be honest about this - is not appealing to the majority of Americans. Why not? Because we prefer democratic government, for one thing; because we still hope for an open, spacious, uncrowded, and beautiful-yes, beautiful!-society, for another. The alternative, in the squalor, cruelty, and corruption of Latin America, is plain for all to see.
https://towncriernews.blogspot.com/2005/12/edward-abbey-immigration-and-liberal.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
It's obvious the Mahayana sutras and the Pali sutras are not spoken by the same person, tantras are even wilder. This is my opinion. Besides that, they don't really offer anything additional or superior.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I don't agree. Just compare either Cullasuññata sūttas with any Prajñāpāramitā sūtra.

Crazywisdom said:
They just go on about bodhisattvas not being bodhisattvas and sentient beings not being sentient beings.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is a trivialization of Prajñāpāramitā. But since you are in this hypercritical mood, well enjoy! (but being critical shortens one's life considerably).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Apology to the Naga Realm
Content:
cyril said:
"By offering musk [...] snakeskin [...] cuttlefish bone... " - from the page 18 of the document.
I thought you were not supposed to offer animal-derived ingredients, as this will only irritate the Nagas.

Malcolm wrote:
Musk in particular is toxic to Nāgās.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
The true story is these Bodhisattvas are sock puppets.

Malcolm wrote:
True story? No, just another narrative.

Crazywisdom said:
It's obvious the Mahayana sutras and the Pali sutras are not spoken by the same person, tantras are even wilder. This is my opinion. Besides that, they don't really offer anything additional or superior.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I don't agree. Just compare either Cullasuññata sūttas with any Prajñāpāramitā sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
It's not a dog, it's a poodle...

Malcolm wrote:
No, its more like the difference between a dog (numerous and shallow) and a wolf (few and deep).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
Mahayana teaching is said to come from Dharmakaya for historically a lot of it was not spoken by the Buddha Sakyamuni .

Malcolm wrote:
Technically, the sambhogakāya has five certainties. One of them is the certainty of the teaching, which is always Mahāyāna.


Minobu said:
Take the Lotus Sutra , it's a given it was never actually told to people in like the way we go to concert and watch a performance.

and I believe it was first written hundreds of years after Sakyamuni historically left earth.


Malcolm wrote:
Traditionally it is held that when the Buddha taught Mahāyāna, it was collated by the bodhisattvas Mañjuśrī and Samantabhadra on a mountain in S. India and then hidden for several generations.

Crazywisdom said:
The true story is these Bodhisattvas are sock puppets.

Malcolm wrote:
True story? No, just another narrative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, October 1st, 2016 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Jeff H said:
Do you consider not voting for Hillary to be a vote for Trump? Certainly in the battleground states, but I think generally, it is a mistake to assume he can't win. And, regardless of the arguments against her, I think putting him in office would be worse.

Malcolm wrote:
The point, in this election, is not who we put into office (anyone is better than Trump), the point is to keep Trump out of the White House. This can only be effectively done by voting for Clinton.

conebeckham said:
Yes indeed.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, we will deal with Hillary Clinton later.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
The two bodies of Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya  came after due to the realization of Dharmakaya??? or the generation of Dharmakaya ????

how's that ?

so in the end no sentient has been the Primordial Buddha???

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the realization of the dharmakāya comes before the manifestation of the two rūpakāyas.

So, yes, there is no being who is a true "First Buddha."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
conebeckham said:
Frankly, anyone who would vote for him at this point is demonstrating a crippling lack of intelligence and judgement.

Jeff H said:
Do you consider not voting for Hillary to be a vote for Trump? Certainly in the battleground states, but I think generally, it is a mistake to assume he can't win. And, regardless of the arguments against her, I think putting him in office would be worse.

Malcolm wrote:
The point, in this election, is not who we put into office (anyone is better than Trump), the point is to keep Trump out of the White House. This can only be effectively done by voting for Clinton.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Vasana said:
As we already touched upon, 'the front is long'. If you include the entire enviriomental movement..

Sherab Dorje said:
Which would be a fatal error, since Deep Ecologists go to great efforts to show that they are not "just" environmentalists. That is why they consider themselves "deep" and everybody else "shallow".

Malcolm wrote:
No, deep and shallow refer to respective approaches within the environmental movement. The late David Orton writes:

The distinction between “shallow” and “deep” ecology made by Naess, although perhaps an invidious comparison which some have called self-serving, nevertheless became a signature and part of the language of ecophilosophy and radical environmentalism. In fairness to Naess, he saw these two terms as “argumentation patterns” and not applied to people. (_Philosophical Dialogues: Arne Naess and the Progress of Ecophilosophy_, p. 444.) What is being called for in this age of ecology is that individuals need to define their “selves” as being part of the natural world. Naess defined the shallow ecology movement, which he says is more influential than the deep ecology movement, as “Fight against pollution and resource depletion. Central objective: the health and affluence of people in the developed countries.” The shallow approach takes for granted beliefs in technological optimism, economic growth, and scientific management and the continuation of existing industrial societies. Naess expressed it this way: “The supporters of shallow ecology think that reforming human relations toward nature can be done within the existing structure of society.” (_Selected Works_, Volume Ten, p. 16.)

Naess defined the “deep movement”, which seeks the transformation of industrial capitalist societies who have brought about the existing environmental crisis, by putting forward seven main points. The article is only a few pages long, but profound and showing the complexity of Naess. He pointed out that biological complexity required a corresponding social and cultural complexity. Outlined is an “anti-class posture” and how anti-pollution devices can, because of increasing the “prices of life necessities” increase class differences. He stressed local autonomy and decentralization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 6:24 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


boda said:
I didn't ask for perfection. I only ask for evidence of discipline, to a degree that it supersedes philosophizing at least.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not inside the head of everyone who professes deep ecological values. You would have to go out an survey everyone individually to arrive at some answer to your question. So, we can understand then that your question is as useless as it is purely rhetorical.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
boda said:
This is blatantly against DE, being so anthropocentric, even if it were a reasonable view. There's no assurance at all that Mr. Abrams children would grow up to support DE.

Malcolm wrote:
Do you somehow imagine that the deep ecological perspective means that no humans ever should again have children?

boda said:
If you look a few lines up you'll be able to see that I explicitly wrote "help to reduce the human population." No one is buying your straw men.

Malcolm wrote:
No one is buying your straw man. I just called you on it.



deepecology.org said:
The long-range deep approach involves redesigning our whole systems based on values and methods that truly preserve the ecological and cultural diversity of natural systems.
If someone really possessed such values, in a world of 7 billion and growing, would they have children? Would they own a car? How is this discipline, that you claim DE is "first and foremost," expressed?

Malcolm wrote:
You work with circumstances as best you can. For example, I have no children. But I do have a car, use the internet, electricity, and so on.

In your case, you are allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
boda said:
What does that even mean?

At a cursory google glance, the first on your list, David Abram, has two children. Does he lack the discipline to help reduce the human population?

Lukeinaz said:
If people like David Abram chose not to have children this would not help to reduce the human population.  It would only reduce the number of children raised by intelligent parents.  In fact, I would encourage the David Abrams of the world to ave more children.

boda said:
This is blatantly against DE, being so anthropocentric, even if it were a reasonable view. There's no assurance at all that Mr. Abrams children would grow up to support DE.

Malcolm wrote:
Do you somehow imagine that the deep ecological perspective means that no humans ever should again have children? If so you did not understand the first point of the eight point platform:
The well-being and flourishing of human and nonhuman life on Earth have value in themselves (synonyms: inherent worth, intrinsic value, inherent value). These values are independent of the usefulness of the nonhuman world for human purposes.
This assumes the human life has inherent value, as does nonhuman life.

boda said:
As a mountaineer who had climbed all over the world, Naess had enjoyed the opportunity to observe political and social activism in diverse cultures. Both historically and in the contemporary movement, Naess saw two different forms of environmentalism, not necessarily incompatible with each other. One he called the “long-range deep ecology movement” and the other, the “shallow ecology movement.” The word “deep” in part referred to the level of questioning of our purposes and values when arguing in environmental conflicts. The “deep” movement involves deep questioning, right down to fundamental root causes. The short-term, shallow approach stops before the ultimate level of fundamental change, often promoting technological fixes (e.g. recycling, increased automotive efficiency, export-driven monocultural organic agriculture) based on the same consumption-oriented values and methods of the industrial economy. The long-range deep approach involves redesigning our whole systems based on values and methods that truly preserve the ecological and cultural diversity of natural systems.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.deepecology.org/deepecology.htm


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: What does it mean to pray to the guru?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
I think praying to the guru, viewing guru as dharmakaya and guru yoga are all different things.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is all of a piece.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Vasana said:
"Including indigenous people and others who have never heard the term "deep ecology."
Which begs the question of whether you can be classed  as being part of a movement you've never heard of simply by external categorization.

Malcolm wrote:
If you have something with spokes, rim and an axle you have a wheel, whether or not you have ever heard of a wheel.

Vasana said:
This is why I previously said that deep ecoloogy is a species of the general enviriomemtal movement and not the other way around.

Malcolm wrote:
Did I disagree with you? As Naess said, "The front is long."


Vasana said:
One thing for sure is that in the future, there will be a  definite need for a more unified enviromental movement - I really don't think we need to burden ourselves with giving it a name just yet since the problems of the enviriomemt are both particular/local and global. Different sets of people are all working towards both specific and wider means even if we're not wearing the same colours and sports shirts /jerseys.

Malcolm wrote:
Deep ecology is a perspective on the environmental movement. I never argued it wasn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
Mahayana teaching is said to come from Dharmakaya for historically a lot of it was not spoken by the Buddha Sakyamuni .

Malcolm wrote:
Technically, the sambhogakāya has five certainties. One of them is the certainty of the teaching, which is always Mahāyāna.


Minobu said:
Take the Lotus Sutra , it's a given it was never actually told to people in like the way we go to concert and watch a performance.

and I believe it was first written hundreds of years after Sakyamuni historically left earth.


Malcolm wrote:
Traditionally it is held that when the Buddha taught Mahāyāna, it was collated by the bodhisattvas Mañjuśrī and Samantabhadra on a mountain in S. India and then hidden for several generations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Deep ecology is first and foremost a personal discipline...

boda said:
What does that even mean?

At a cursory google glance, the first on your list, David Abram, has two children. Does he lack the discipline to help reduce the human population?

Malcolm wrote:
Some people have children. That does not prevent them from having a deep ecological perspective or discipline. This is just another shallow view on what it means to have a deep ecological perspective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I see a couple of Earth First! people made your list...

Malcolm wrote:
Being an Earth Firster does not preclude one from having a deep ecological view. I don't think the organization as a whole is representative of a deep ecological perspective.

Sherab Dorje said:
In response to that list I would say:  so what?  Where is the mass movement that is going to save the current ecosphere from extinction?  NOWHERE.

Malcolm wrote:
You seem to have a very narrow definition of "movement." It seems that if there isn't destruction of property, violence and demonstrations, you don't consider it a "movement."

Deep ecology is first and foremost a personal discipline which informs how we relate to the world and its beings. Many people who have a deep ecological perspective are at the forefront of the ecological movement, including indigenous people and others who have never heard the term "deep ecology."

This part of the conversation began when I noted that the failure of the Green Party is rooted in two things: 1) it's abandonment of a deep ecological framework (at least this is clearly the case with the dominant Green Party in the US) and 2) its subsequent adoption of Ecosocialism, which is purely green-washed old school Marxism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But unfortunately, no one reads Naess, so of course no one understands what he meant by "deep ecology."

Sherab Dorje said:
And those that listened to Naess  are at the very pinnacle of success as we speak.  Like I said before:  (unfortunately for this planet) Deep Ecology is just an obscure and insignificant academic philosophical trend.

Malcolm wrote:
David Abram
Michael Asher
Judi Bari
Thomas Berry
Wendell Berry
Leonardo Boff
Fritjof Capra
Savitri Devi[8]
Michael Dowd
Vivienne Elanta
Warwick Fox
Chellis Glendinning
Edward Goldsmith
Félix Guattari
Paul Hawken
Julia Butterfly Hill
Derrick Jensen
Bernie Krause
Satish Kumar
Dolores LaChapelle
Gilbert LaFreniere
Pentti Linkola
John Livingston
Joanna Macy
Jerry Mander
Freya Mathews
Terence McKenna
W. S. Merwin
Arne Næss
Peter Newman
David Orton
Val Plumwood
Theodore Roszak
John Seed
Paul Shepard
Vandana Shiva
Gary Snyder
Timothy Sprigge
Richard Sylvan
Douglas Tompkins
Oberon Zell-Ravenheart
John Zerzan

There are many people on that list who have made enduring contributions to the ecology movement, such as Wendell Berry, BIll McKibben, Joanna Macy, John Seed, Vandana Shiva, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, September 30th, 2016 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Failed miserably...

Malcolm wrote:
They failed because they never read Naess. Naess was never about spiking trees or monkey wrenching bulldozers.

But unfortunately, no one reads Naess, so of course no one understands what he meant by "deep ecology."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
trumpella.jpg (109.56 KiB) Viewed 1230 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
lets leave it at Malcolm should be a little more carefull in stomping on us little people  with what we post.


Malcolm wrote:
I didn't stomp on anyone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: What does it mean to pray to the guru?
Content:
Boomerang said:
The question is in the title. Is it the same type of praying that Christians do? Or, is it different? How is it the same/different?

What does it mean to receive the guru's blessings?

They say that all success on the path comes from faith and devotion toward the guru. What does that mean?

Malcolm wrote:
It means that all your success on the path comes from receiving teachings from the guru. Without a guru, no success on the path is possible. Why? Because in order to enter Vajrayāna, you must receive empowerments and so on. In recognition of the crucial importance of the guru, we have many supplications and visualizations where we receive blessings from them in the form of light. This is basically a symbol of receiving teachings.

There is however no mystical force which transfers from guru to disciple called "blessings." It is not like grace.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Namdrol, how would you translate 'adhisthana' or 'chin lab'? Can you elaborate on their meanings and importance? Thanks!


Malcolm wrote:
The term really means to "confer power"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 9:26 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Earth First! is not in fact a true representative of deep ecology. They may have popularized the term, but for example, but Naess did not approve or sanction David Foreman's misanthropy at all:...

Sherab Dorje said:
While it is true that David Foreman lacked Naess's gift of the gab (being white, but not well-educated, or middle class enough), it is false to say that they were not representative of Deep Ecology.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, Earth First! was a movement following Edward Abbey's views. I would never characterize Edward Abbey as someone representative of deep ecology.

Of course, Bookchin accused Earth First of being racist ecofascists over Abbey's anti-immigration stance.

David Orton writes:
Foreman was one of the key figures in founding Earth First! He went on to do and promote crucial restoration ecology work in the magazine Wild Earth, which he helped found  and on the Wildlands Project. Overall he has, and continues to make, a substantial contribution. He has never made any secret of his right-of-center original political views and often showered these rightist views in uninformed comments in print, on what he saw as “leftists” in the movement.
http://home.ca.inter.net/~greenweb/Ecofascism.html



Sherab Dorje said:
Earth First! (not just the original American chapter, but the global network of small activist cells) was the closest thing Deep Ecology had to a movement.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it really isn't.


Sherab Dorje said:
But being based on late 19th and early 20th century notions of the propaganda of the deed (rather than mass movement models) and because their activities were largely illegal (destroying private property) it made it easy for the police to target them, find them and (literally, in the case of Judi Bari) destroy them.

Malcolm wrote:
It has been my long held opinion that Earth Firsters in general do not have a good understanding of deep ecology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:



Vasana said:
Yeah i have no problem with that. I'm in agreement with Naess in that all three movements need to occur side by side. That of social justice, that of peace and that of the 'deep ecology movement.'

My "issue' is simply the insistence on the self-proclaimed name of 'deep-ecology' as the definitive title of that third movement. The name and ethos evolved from the enviriomental movement in general and not the other way around. If you asked your average person if they simply knew of the existence of the enviromental movement, most would say yes. If you asked your average person if they knew of the existence of the deep ecology movement, most would say no. Deep ecology is a species of the enviriomental movement and not the other way around. Enviriomental movements might have different ideologies but some will still remain consistent with the praxis of D.E and you can still effectively advocate for meaningful ecological progress without the need to lump things under a single title.

It would just be a case of 'a rose by any other name smelling just as sweet' if the deep ecology movement was synonymous with all forms of environmentalism but that doesn't seem to be so. Equally, there are thousands of enviriomental initiatives that are in alignment with the D.E view but have no association with them.

People are less concerned with the titles of movements and of the various 'isms' and nore conceened with whether they actually function.


Malcolm wrote:
It is a matter of perspective, mainly:
You’ve been credited with having coined the expression “deep ecology.” How exactly did the idea originate?
Well, I did not coin the term “deep ecology.” I coined two terms. One is “supporter of the deep ecology movement” – a fairly long expressions. And the other is “ecosophy.” But this term “supporter of the deep ecology movement” was very soon abbreviated to “deep ecology” and supporters were called “deep ecologists.”

How does “deep” ecology differ from “shallow” ecology?

Movements are always changing and one should be cautious in saying what strictly separates two movements, like the deep and the shallow. One marked difference is that the total argumentations of those who support the shallow movement are anthropocentric in the sense that everything done to protect and restore nature sis seen as having benefit for future human generations. In deep ecology, future generations means future generations of all living beings, including rivers for example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: What does it mean to pray to the guru?
Content:
Boomerang said:
I was inspired to make this thread after reading a passage in Not For Happiness by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche, in which he says:

There will also be times when none of the usual logic works and you find yourself incapable of accepting even the most patently obvious truth that death is imminent and inevitable, and not one living being—friend, family or even you yourself—can escape it. When such stubborn delusions take hold of your mind, pray to your guru, the buddhas and the bodhisattvas and beg them for help truly to accept the inexorability of death. And don’t fall into the trap of imagining you should first learn to despise samsara and develop strong “renunciation mind” before you resort to such a prayer. As the great Jamgön Kongtrul Lodrö Tayé said, you should rely on your guru for everything, including the blessing of no longer hungering for samsara. In fact, you should pray to your guru and ask him to make sure that you pray!

This passage gives me the idea that praying to guru the activates some sort of force that helps you along the path. The force could be coming from outside of you, or it could be a matter of psyching yourself up to unlock your hidden potential.

Malcolm wrote:
Supplicating one's guru can be a method of recognizing the nature of the mind. But for that, one needs instructions from your guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: What does it mean to pray to the guru?
Content:
Boomerang said:
Thank you for your answers. Does that mean praying to the guru is synonymous with recollecting your motivation to practice the guru's teachings, or in other words, psyching yourself up?

Malcolm wrote:
When I supplicate my gurus, I am thanking them for giving me teachings. For me, at any rate, the act of offering supplications and petitioning blessings from my gurus is principally an act of mindfulness of the lineage.

Other people have different ideas about this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: What does it mean to pray to the guru?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is however no mystical force which transfers from guru to disciple called "blessings."

Fortyeightvows said:
Really not even a little ?
Isn't love and commitment a mystical force?

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are mental factors.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yup. Because the problem is the means of production itself.

Sherab Dorje said:
You obviously have never worked in factories, coz if you had you would know that the vast majority of factory worker hate their job and do it merely to make ends meet.  They would jump at the opportunity to do something useful and creative with the means at hand.

Malcolm wrote:
You obviously have no clue about me or my life, nor what I have done to make a living.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


Vasana said:
Even if people have qualms with deep ecology , I can't imagine there being much protest towards the core methodology required, that is, a  systems-theory approach.

Malcolm wrote:
Statements from some of the Earth First!ers would give you the impression that the whole species is screwed up, but again, I think this is a minority dimension. Warwick Fox, a deep ecology theorist in Australia, says we have to distinguish between being misanthropic – hating humanity – and being anti-anthropocentric. There’s a difference between saying we want to get rid of all human beings, and saying that humans aren’t the most important species on the planet.
http://www.context.org/iclib/ic22/zimmrman/

Earth First! is not in fact a true representative of deep ecology. They may have popularized the term, but for example, but Naess did not approve or sanction David Foreman's misanthropy at all:
About another misunderstanding: what is your feeling about those who have used ecology to defend social Darwinism or Malthusianism? For example, David Foreman of Earth First! has been quoted as saying with regard to the Ethiopian famine, “The best thing would be to just let nature seek its own balance, to let the people there just starve.”

Dave Foreman sometimes seems to speak without much carefulness and sometimes he’s then quoted even less carefully making these statements. The only thing I can find there which can be said to be a supportable view is the opinion of many doctors who are treating Ethiopian starving children, when they say – not publicly – but when they say that the best thing for may of these children would be to die. But of course we cannot let them die. We have to, as physicians, try to heal them. Also because of the parents, we cannot let children die. Dave Foreman may have the opinion that it would be best for starving people to die, but ecological humanitarian norms among humans are such that we are extremely concerned about starvation. We have more responsibility toward humans than we do toward animals. If someone had to choose between saving a starving child and the possibility of killing the last rhinoceros, if there were no other means of saving the child, he should kill the rhinoceros and we would all think that correct. But it would be a scandal, especially among rich nations, not to help the poorer nations let living beings continue to live. In short, we are not social Darwinists.
And this is an important clarification by Naess:
Would deep ecology preclude concern for the issues of social justice, which have become part of the agenda of left Greens?

No, I think that in this century we have three great grassroots movements: that of social justice, that of peace and that of the deep ecology movement. Those three have to cooperate intimately. It’s quite clear that the ecological crisis cannot be solved in isolation from social justice – for instance, to try to conserve rainforests without at the same time taking up the tremendous problem of what to do with relations between North and South. We have to take those problems – all of them – at once, and not say that one is more important than the others. So it’s extremely important that the social justice movement is always taken into consideration. The peace movement is too obvious to talk about at all. The military – 900 billion dollars used every year for militarism – is one of the greatest polluters in the present day. Also any kind of warlike situation immediately tends to negate every kind of concern not only for civilians but for all living beings whatsoever. So those three movements must cooperate. What distinguishes the deep ecology movements is that it is practically 100% a grassroots movement, whereas the other two have some support among the governments.
And:
What do you think are our realistic prospects for the future – for humankind?
There will be no ultimate catastrophe involving all humanity or involving all higher organisms on the earth. But there may be a deterioration in the quality of life both in and outside cities. And there will be hundreds of catastrophes on the order of Chernobyl. I look forward to this trend changing in the 22nd century, at the earliest.

The 22nd century?

The next century – the 21st – I’m afraid won’t see any great social and ecological progress.



http://www.kyotojournal.org/the-journal/conversations/ecosophy-beyond-east-and-west-%E2%80%94-arne-naess-in-kyoto/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: What does it mean to pray to the guru?
Content:
Boomerang said:
The question is in the title. Is it the same type of praying that Christians do? Or, is it different? How is it the same/different?

What does it mean to receive the guru's blessings?

They say that all success on the path comes from faith and devotion toward the guru. What does that mean?

Malcolm wrote:
It means that all your success on the path comes from receiving teachings from the guru. Without a guru, no success on the path is possible. Why? Because in order to enter Vajrayāna, you must receive empowerments and so on. In recognition of the crucial importance of the guru, we have many supplications and visualizations where we receive blessings from them in the form of light. This is basically a symbol of receiving teachings.

There is however no mystical force which transfers from guru to disciple called "blessings." It is not like grace.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Flavors of Nationalism... and the wind tossed seas of Open Dharma
Content:
sillyrabbit said:
I do consider this work to be a labor of love because I value the well-being of my community, whose ancestors were kidnapped and brought here as slaves.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are from the African American community, in fact chances are that like many Africans sold into slavery, they were captured in battle as prisoners of war. Many African slaves were skilled soldiers. The history of Maroon communities from Brazil to Virginia should prove instructive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Minobu said:
i don't want to open up old wounds...but i think people see that you did use the wrong word and it did make me feel like everything i posted was moronic and non buddhist...it was like making fun of me....it hurt coming from you.

Malcolm wrote:
I was not making fun of you.


Minobu said:
... using the big bang which has nothing to do with what I was talking about is the same thing Malcolm it debased what i wrote and again it hurt..


Malcolm wrote:
I did not intentionally debase anything you said.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I didn't make a speculative comment. I used a simile. I am pretty sure that I write sufficiently clearly that my posts don't require your commentary in order to be understood.
Yes, Minobu, I knew you were not referring to Genesis, and neither was I. I was referring to the idea that there was an initial state of purity (edenic) from which we deviated. Not even the teachings of the Great Perfection in Tibet maintain this literally. Perhaps there is some Sino-Japanese Buddhist school that maintains some theory about "original enlightenment."

Queequeg said:
I'm sorry, its not at all clear you are referencing a simile. If you say so.

Moving along...

Malcolm wrote:
It is extremely clear had you bothered to read every post in sequence. "Edenic" is a simile.  Yes, you should move along, since you are wasting your time better spend addressing moderation needs elsewhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Vasana said:
I agree with all of those deep ecology pointers above but I think the carrying capacity of the earth is greater than even the present global population.

Malcolm wrote:
I think this is a very mistaken point of view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
My statement was actually that, even in the most extreme interpretations of OE, there is no proposition of some original pure state, like an Eden.

Malcolm wrote:
I was earlier addressing Minobu's query about such a pure state.

Queequeg said:
And I was addressing your speculative comment. My comment was not directed at you necessarily - just making something clear for anyone who might read the thread, including Dave who might read something into your speculation.

Lighten up, dude.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't make a speculative comment. I used a simile. I am pretty sure that I write sufficiently clearly that my posts don't require your commentary in order to be understood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
My statement was actually that, even in the most extreme interpretations of OE, there is no proposition of some original pure state, like an Eden.

Malcolm wrote:
I was earlier addressing Minobu's query about such a pure state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Considering that there is no biosphere we know of but this one, the issue of human beings destroying the planet and all other life along with it is very much a biocentric concern.

Sherab Dorje said:
No.  A biocentric view would not give a flying f*ck about what happens to human beings during the transition to an ecology centered existence.  Like the title of one of my favorite Deep Ecology groups says: Earth First!  Human concerns don't get factored into the equation.

Malcolm wrote:
However inconvenient it may be to some, humans are also part of the biosphere. Deep ecology does not exclude human beings:
The well-being and flourishing of human and non-human life on Earth have value in themselves (synonyms: intrinsic value, inherent worth). These values are independent of the usefulness of the non-human world for human purposes.

Richness and diversity of life forms contribute to the realization of these values and are also values in themselves.

Humans have no right to reduce this richness and diversity except to satisfy vital needs.

The flourishing of human life and cultures is compatible with a substantially smaller human population. The flourishing of non-human life requires a smaller human population.

Present human interference with the non-human world is excessive, and the situation is rapidly worsening.

Policies must therefore be changed. These policies affect basic economic, technological, and ideological structures. The resulting state of affairs will be deeply different from the present.

The ideological change will be mainly that of appreciating life quality (dwelling in situations of inherent value) rather than adhering to an increasingly higher standard of living. There will be a profound awareness of the difference between bigness and greatness.

Those who subscribe to the foregoing points have an obligation directly or indirectly to try to implement the necessary changes.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/arne-naess-and-george-sessions-basic-principles-of-deep-ecology


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, September 29th, 2016 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
And one more thing to ponder:  Do you really believe that if the proletarian class actually controlled the means of production they would choose continue to poison and destroy themselves making useless things designed to break down as quickly as possible?

Malcolm wrote:
Yup. Because the problem is the means of production itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
I don't think even the most extreme views of Original Enlightenment propose an Eden.


Malcolm wrote:
Oh for lord's sake, literal much?

Queequeg said:
Does not compute.


Malcolm wrote:
Translation, "Oh" exclamatory remark; "for" is a preposition. "Lord's sake," used to be a meaningful Christian expression, now part of common vernacular meaning, "be serious." "Literal" means not understand the sense or context of a given statement or word. Much means "too much."

In other words, "Seriously? You are being way too literal."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
Sure, but your emotional appeal to change is based on the assumption that we will destroy the planet and that we will not have somewhere to live.  That is hardly biocentric.

Malcolm wrote:
Considering that there is no biosphere we know of but this one, the issue of human beings destroying the planet and all other life along with it is very much a biocentric concern

Sherab Dorje said:
Not to mention the fact that a "movement", which is basically an extraordinarily small bunch of privileged white males, now feel that they are not only speaking on behalf of humans, but the whole freakin' planet.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not merely a small bunch of white males. There is an upwelling of indigenous people's voices proclaiming a biocentric viewpoint and protesting extractive practices from such viewpoint all over the planet .


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"original enlightenment."

Queequeg said:
I don't think even the most extreme views of Original Enlightenment propose an Eden.


Malcolm wrote:
Oh for lord's sake, literal much?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:



Minobu said:
From what I wrote  I ask the group "Is it possible i am mixing Vedic thought with Buddhist thought."

Has anyone ever heard of these views and could they please put them in context for me.
Again I was not inferring in the slightest to Biblical anything, and as far as the quantum influx into it , I was personally comparing Quantum theory that everything in the universe is coming from something more akin to thought than hard atom molecule theory. Hence another view that i would like to be addressed.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Minobu, I knew you were not referring to Genesis, and neither was I. I was referring to the idea that there was an initial state of purity (edenic) from which we deviated. Not even the teachings of the Great Perfection in Tibet maintain this literally. Perhaps there is some Sino-Japanese Buddhist school that maintains some theory about "original enlightenment."


Minobu said:
Is everything in this known universe arising from Karma.  Or is Karma the cause for trees and air and planets and all that it is.

Malcolm wrote:
According to Vasubandhu, "The variety of the world arises from karma," and yes, the actions of all sentient beings in the last universe lead to the arising of this one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
The thing is, we seem to understand the word "socialism" differently.

Malcolm wrote:
I see Socialism as an economic system whose only real complaint with Capitalism is who owns the means of production. Democratic Socialism is just an attempt at reconciliation of this contradiction (between Socialism and Capitalism). But it is till capitalist in essence and so it does not address the real issues facing the planet.

As for the rest of it, I think we need to leave 19th century philosophers and their alternate socialisms behind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
It is pretty simple, really —— I told you that the technology that got us to where we are today cannot fix these problems because our whole economy, as well as the technology it produced, is based on resource extraction and exploitation. Somehow, you reject this idea since you imagine, naively, that technology is value free, the old "people kill people, guns don't kill people" argument.
Guns are designed and made for killing people.  A production line can (for example) be used to make ecologically-sound recycled products.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Yes, but a part of the parcel is the role the worker plays there, the changes to their lifestyle such a role forces, the appearance of the social class in the long run... Not to mention the fact that production lines assume (and are possible in) a 100% androcentric culture, one which has the concept of "resources" (i.e., that which is what we use to create our world, which we are separate from and superior to, which is non-sentient, etc.) and thus also endorses a fundamentally androcentric (and instrumental) approach to the non-human world. Come to think of it, the seed of capitalism is there as well...

Malcolm wrote:
The whole point is that the technology we use shapes how we perceive the world. To a hammer, for example, everything is a nail. Class is nothing more nor less than divisions of society based upon who has the privilege of extracting and consuming more resources. Class is a symptom of extractive economics, not the case of extractive economics. Therefore, thinking that we need to resolve class issues in order to resolved ecological issues is both far too human-centered, and is addressing a symptom instead of a cause. Indeed, the latter fact is largely the reason Socialist economies have been every bit as much extractive economies as Capitalist ones. As I pointed out already, Socialism never created a means of production on its own, and therefore it relies on the principles of extractive economics equally as much as Capitalism.

Nope, the only way to resolve the ecological crisis is to abandon a human centered approach to civilization, and adopt a biocentric approach. As far as we know, this is the only planet that can support life such as ours. We better stop f&8cking it up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:
Minobu said:
You don't read what I write and then decide what i wrote and start in with something else to just prove what you believe..

Malcolm wrote:
We do not have the same opinion of what transpired in our conversation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
It is pretty simple, really —— I told you that the technology that got us to where we are today cannot fix these problems because our whole economy, as well as the technology it produced, is based on resource extraction and exploitation. Somehow, you reject this idea since you imagine, naively, that technology is value free, the old "people kill people, guns don't kill people" argument.
Guns are designed and made for killing people.  A production line can (for example) be used to make ecologically-sound recycled products.

Malcolm wrote:
The fact that we have recycled products mass produced on the scale that they are merely points to the fact that production line technology is extractive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I don't see how this is a criticism of Naess at all.

PuerAzaelis said:
Whether domination of humans precedes domination of nature isn't relevant as to whether the best solution is social justice or a "total-field image" of the world?

Malcolm wrote:
I answered this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I've been waiting for you to stop offering non-sequitor criticisms of deep ecology. The other point, which seem to fail to grasp is that what matters in the end is that we change how human beings relate to and think about the environment and there world. Bookchin's analysis of dominance as the source of the trouble is not consistent with the Buddhist analysis of the problem [Aggañña Sutta in the Dighanikāya].

As this sūtra shows, dominance comes from hoarding resources. Resource hoarding does not come from dominance.

Sherab Dorje said:
Oh look, surprise-surprise, instead of answering the question you resorted to ad an ad hom and propped up another straw man...

The answer to your straw man argument is quite simple actually:  chicken-egg-chicken-egg-ad nauseum...

Malcolm wrote:
It is pretty simple, really —— I told you that the technology that got us to where we are today cannot fix these problems because our whole economy, as well as the technology it produced, is based on resource extraction and exploitation. Somehow, you reject this idea since you imagine, naively, that technology is value free, the old "people kill people, guns don't kill people" argument.

The first step in solving a problem is recognizing it to begin with. I don't think you recognize the problem since you insist that the technology and economy upon which it is based is not the problem. For you, class is the problem. I don't agree with this assessment. Class is a product of the economy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
What do you propose we do while we wait for humanity to fall of its horse while travelling to Damascus?


Malcolm wrote:
I've been waiting for you to stop offering non-sequitor criticisms of deep ecology. The other point, which seem to fail to grasp is that what matters in the end is that we change how human beings relate to and think about the environment and there world. Bookchin's analysis of dominance as the source of the trouble is not consistent with the Buddhist analysis of the problem [Aggañña Sutta in the Dighanikāya].

As this sūtra shows, dominance comes from hoarding resources. Resource hoarding does not come from dominance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
His dismissal was trite and lacking in substance. Bookchin was not a very deep thinker. He was a leftist reactionary. Like most on the left, ideological purity was more important to him than actually doing anything. Bookchin's Institute of Social Ecology is moribund.[/quote}Where did I say that Bookchin is the new messiah? This is in fact what is required to ameliorate climate change.
What do you propose we do while we wait for humanity to fall of its horse while travelling to Damascus? That does not mean you understand Naess's Ecosophy T.

Sherab Dorje said:
So anybody that disagrees with Naess does not understand him?  What I am pointing out is that contrary to what you may believe, I am not clueless about Deep Ecology.  Personally I was more impressed with earth First than the ivory tower brigade.


Malcolm wrote:
I have yet to see you once accurately describe deep ecology. I have seen you repeatedly borrow cliche invectives from Bookchin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
His dismissal is not trite, it is spot on.

PuerAzaelis said:
Agree.

[A]ll our notions of dominating nature stem from the very real domination of human by human. [The] domination of human by human preceded the notion of dominating nature. Indeed, human domination of human gave rise to the very idea of dominating nature ... t is not until we eliminate domination in all its forms ... that we will really create a rational, ecological society.
Bookchin, Remaking Society, p.44.

I don't think this sounds like a trite dismissal.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't see how this is a criticism of Naess at all. Moreover, Bookchin's approach to ecology is completely androcentric.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Primordial Buddha
Content:


Queequeg said:
The time of the Buddha's enlightenment is earlier than his purported enlightenment in this world at Gaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course. This is discussed in many Mahāyāna sūtras and commentaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You still don't understand deep ecology. It's ok. I don't have any pressing need for you to understand it. Many people have bought into Bookchin's trite dismissals. Their loss.

Sherab Dorje said:
His dismissal is not trite, it is spot on.  The Deep Ecology movement is in a woeful state.  Like it or lump my friend!

Malcolm wrote:
His dismissal was trite and lacking in substance. Bookchin was not a very deep thinker. He was a leftist reactionary. Like most on the left, ideological purity was more important to him than actually doing anything. Bookchin's Institute of Social Ecology is moribund.


Sherab Dorje said:
It is somewhat distressing, however, that you do not seem to understand that the biosphere crisis we are in will not be solved by the same kind of economic and technological thinking that put us in this crisis to begin with.
Oh, I understand this VERY well.  Thing is that we currently have to work with what we have got, RIGHT NOW.

Malcolm wrote:
What we have right now isn't working at all. See above.

Sherab Dorje said:
Humanity is not about to do a sudden about face regarding technology, production and consumption.  It is not about to have an ecological awakening.

Malcolm wrote:
This is in fact what is required to ameliorate climate change.

Sherab Dorje said:
As for the philosophical notions of Deep Ecology, I actually agree with a lot of what is being said, but politically it is just not happening, and the mass movement (which you are hoping will save us) happens to be a political movement.  A movement of the polity.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not hoping anyone will save us. I merely pointing out what is necessary for halting total planetary desertification.

Sherab Dorje said:
PS I think I may have mentioned it to you before, but I used to help edit, layout and produce the Australian version of the magazine Deep Ecologist back in the early nineties.

Malcolm wrote:
That does not mean you understand Naess's Ecosophy T.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: The "Alt-Right" is a legitimate problem
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nothing can be promised to anyone other than a virtually lifeless, planetary desert if humanity does not abandon extractive economic practices. Since capitalism and its shadow, socialism, are both predicated on extractive economics, both are failures.

Sherab Dorje said:
Dude, you know how long millennialism of one variety or another has been around?  The Nibiru theory has more followers than Deep Ecology.  It is a mass movement with greater momentum.  If Deep Ecology does not pick up it's act and start to assess why people don't give a shit about its largely philosophical, pseudo-religious and intellectual ramblings (given the direct action wing of the movement has vanished up its own rectum) it too will be sent to the garbage bin of history (along with post-modernism and post-structuralism) planetary disaster or no...

Malcolm wrote:
You still don't understand deep ecology. It's ok. I don't have any pressing need for you to understand it. Many people have bought into Bookchin's trite dismissals. Their loss.

It is somewhat distressing, however, that you do not seem to understand that the biosphere crisis we are in will not be solved by the same kind of economic and technological thinking that put us in this crisis to begin with.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, September 28th, 2016 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 3
Content:
The Cicada said:
. He might be an actual equivalent to Caesar, if only because so many of those who oppose him believe in authoritarianism more than democracy and are so easily willing to characterize those with whom they disagree as simply being "irrational."


Malcolm wrote:
If he gets elected, it will be because those ignorant fools who admire a man who has made public his fanboy admiration for authoritarian leaders like Putin and so on will turn out in greater numbers than rational voters who do not want a tyrant elected president of the USA.


