﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 12:46 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
\ and all the time you spent learning how to shoot straight and aim properly will assist even in the most miniscule way and guarantee you a positive rebirth in your next life?


Adamantine said:
WHy not? Certainly like Saraha, if you meditate while shooting targets and think of it as shooting holes through self-grasping or dualistic fixation then it could even bring liberation in this life and you can join the ranks of the mahasiddhas.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe if your Guru sent you off to do such a thing....but otherwise it is just a fantasy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim
Content:


adinatha said:
tech breakthroughs two years back make shale oil much cheaper to extract.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it used to be 2:1 and higher.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 6:13 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:
David N. Snyder said:
Especially taser guns; with those there is definitely no intention of killing, they are not designed for killing at all -- just immobilizing the assailant until law enforcement can come to take him away.

The target with real guns in LE training is NOT the head or heart, but the center mass - torso since it is the largest area with the least movement, but for defense, the lower torso with a low caliber could be used. In such instances, a fatality is unlikely to occur.

Malcolm wrote:
Re tazers -- if you miss, you are screwed.

Police use tazers mostly on stationary persons who are resisting arrests.


David N. Snyder said:
the lower torso with a low caliber could be used. In such instances, a fatality is unlikely to occur.

Malcolm wrote:
A non-fatal abdomen shot with a low caliber bullet will not stop a determined attacker. And, given the poor accuracy of handguns, that person is likely to be close enough to harm you.

It is not easy to shoot someone who is attacking you, contrary to popular beleif.

Attacking animals are usually easier to shoot, because they generally engage in a display of aggression before attacking.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:


Padme said:
No, I have never hunted, shot an animal or killed anything intentionally.

Malcolm wrote:
Someine intent on harming you is unlikely to be stopped by a non-lethal round, and will be angered by it, actually.

If you are not prepared to kill someone with a handgun bought for self-defense, don't buy one.

If you think you can guarantee that you will be able to disable someone with a gunshot in self-defense, think again. Not only is it hard to shoot a stationary target with a handgun, it is even harder to shoot a moving target. Anyone who has handeled guns knows that I am telling the truth.

Generally speaking, the outside range of accuracy of a handgun is 50 yards.

A healthy man can cover this distance in under 10 seconds.


Padme said:
wouldn't it be interesting if there were also statistics on "events avoided by deterring with a gun". But of course no one keeps such statistics.

Malcolm wrote:
You can find such statistics at the NRA website, among others. They are not impressive.

All and all, you might get lucky or you might get killed when trying to use a handgun defensively. It really does boil down to whether or not you are ready to kill someone with a gun if your survival is at stake.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:
Padme said:
As I stated in reply to David, I imagine I would learn these things in training.

Malcolm wrote:
Shooting at a target is different than shooting a living, breathing person. And if you miss, well...

Good luck.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:
Padme said:
Good point. Even without the goggles I believe I would have an upper hand as far as darkness in the woods goes...


Namdrol said:
Wow, the fantasies about violence in this thread are really pretty amazing. Most ordinary people, when confronted with serious, life-threatening violence, freeze.

N

Padme said:
Are you implying that I am "fantasizing" about running and would just freeze? If so, let me enlighten you. In 1996 I lived in Brooklyn New York and was assaulted by a man on 4th Avenue when I got off a late night bus stop. He shoved me into an alley and assaulted me. I was able to poke him in the eyes, squeeze out from under him and escape. I ran like hell to the nearest Korean market where I called the police. Never occurred to me to freeze. How do you get this "most people" statistic? Plenty of people run from attacks, give me a break.


Malcolm wrote:
No. I am pointing out that all of this stuff about night goggles, etc., is all a fantasy.

When guns are involved, it is much harder to shoot at someone than you might imagine. We were talking about using guns to defend oneself.

Have you ever tried to shoot at an animal? Have you ever gone hunting? Killing is not so easy. I used to hunt when I was a boy. It is even harder to shoot a human being, without training that is. And what Buddhist wants training in how to kill?

Further, handguns are difficult to use. It is hard to shoot one accurately, even at close range. The larger a handgun is, the less accurate it is, without extensive, and regular training.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim
Content:


adinatha said:
This hell on Earth situation of sudden depopulation is what the peak oil apocalypse promoters say must happen.That populations must return to the levels they were at pre-oil, which is between 500 mil and 1 bil, because oil is the energy that led to all these births and sustained the population explosion.

Malcolm wrote:
Not everyone in the peak oil community are predicting a catastrophe, the more balanced, like Greer, predict a long, halting, grinding stop with gradual population declines over the next four centuries.

Think Rome.

Shale oil, tar sands and so on is incredibly expensive to extract, like 4:1.

Also, as demand for oil drops because of a lack of demand from manufacturing because of oil scarcity (when oil become too scarce, industries that depend on it (plastics, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, industrial agriculture, etc.) will fail unilaterally, the price of oil will drop precipitously, and this drop in price will make these hard to access types of oil even less profitable.

Barring some amazing unforseen energy source, a long collapse is a reality, not a speculation.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:
Padme said:
Good point. Even without the goggles I believe I would have an upper hand as far as darkness in the woods goes...


Malcolm wrote:
Wow, the fantasies about violence in this thread are really pretty amazing. Most ordinary people, when confronted with serious, life-threatening violence, freeze.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:
David N. Snyder said:
Also there are numerous individual stories of where law-abiding people prevented crimes with their guns.

Malcolm wrote:
Not that many, in comparison to how many crimes are comitted with guns.

Of course, the US has gun insanity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:
Padme said:
I am reading everything in depth and contemplating all points made, even ones that I initially disagree with.

Malcolm wrote:
Weapons are big business. Follow the money.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp#10 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gun Deaths & Injuries

In 2007, guns took the lives of 31,224 Americans in homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings. This is the equivalent of more than 85 deaths each day and more than three deaths each hour.1

69,863 Americans were treated in hospital emergency department for non-fatal gunshot wounds in 2007.2

Firearms were the third-leading cause of injury-related deaths nationwide in 2007, following motor vehicle accidents and poisoning.3

Between 1955 and 1975, the Vietnam War killed over 58,000 American soldiers – less than the number of civilians killed with guns in the U.S. in an average two-year period.4

In the first seven years of the U.S.-Iraq War, over 4,400 American soldiers were killed. Almost as many civilians are killed with guns in the U.S., however, every seven weeks.5

Homicide

Guns were used in 12,632 homicides in 2007, comprising over 40% of all gun deaths, and nearly 69% of all homicides.6

On average, 33 gun homicides were committed each day for the years 2002-2007.7

Regions and states with higher rates of gun ownership have significantly higher rates of homicide than states with lower rates of gun ownership.8

Where guns are prevalent, there are significantly more homicides, particularly gun homicides.9

Suicide

Firearms were used in 17,352 suicides in 2007, constituting 55% of all gun deaths.10

Over 50% of all suicides are committed with a firearm.11

On average, 46 gun suicides were committed each day for the years 2001-2007.12

White males, about 40% of the U.S. population, accounted for over 80% of firearm suicides in 2007.13

A study of California handgun purchasers found that in the first year after the purchase of a handgun, suicide was the leading cause of death among the purchasers.14

Firearms were used in 45% of suicide deaths among persons under age 25 in 2007.15

More than 75% of guns used in suicide attempts and unintentional injuries of 0-19 year-olds were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend.16

The risk of suicide increases in homes where guns are kept loaded and/or unlocked.17

Unintentional Deaths & Injuries

In 2007, guns were the cause of the unintentional deaths of 613 people.18

From 2001 through 2007, over 4,900 people in the United States died from unintentional shootings.19

Over 1,750 victims of unintentional shootings between 2001 and 2007 were under 25 years of age.20

People of all age groups are significantly more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns. On average, states with the highest gun levels had nine times the rate of unintentional firearms deaths compared to states with the lowest gun levels.21

A federal government study of unintentional shootings found that 8% of such shooting deaths resulted from shots fired by children under the age of six.22

The U.S. General Accounting Office has estimated that 31% of unintentional deaths caused by firearms might be prevented by the addition of two devices: a child-proof safety lock (8%) and a loading indicator (23%).23



Gun Deaths & Race

Firearm homicide is the leading cause of death for African Americans ages 1-44.24

African Americans make up 13% of the U.S. population, but in 2007 suffered over 26% of all firearm deaths – and over 55% of all firearm homicides.25



Domestic Violence

Guns increase the probability of death in incidents of domestic violence.26

Firearms were used to kill more than two-thirds of spouse and ex-spouse homicide victims between 1990 and 2005.27

Domestic violence assaults involving a firearm are 23 times more likely to result in death than those involving other weapons or bodily force.28

Abused women are five times more likely to be killed by their abuser if the abuser owns a firearm.29

A recent survey of female domestic violence shelter residents in California found that more than one third (36.7%) reported having been threatened or harmed with a firearm.30 In nearly two thirds (64.5%) of the households that contained a firearm, the intimate partner had used the firearm against the victim, usually threatening to shoot or kill the victim.31

Laws that prohibit the purchase of a firearm by a person subject to a domestic violence restraining order are associated with a reduction in the number of intimate partner homicides.32

Between 1990 and 2005, individuals killed by current dating partners made up almost half of all spouse and current dating partner homicides.33

A study of applicants for domestic violence restraining orders in Los Angeles found that the most common relationship between the victim and abuser was a dating relationship, and applications for protective orders were more likely to mention firearms when the parties had not lived together and were not married.34

For additional information about domestic violence and firearms, including background information and state and local laws on the topic, see LCAV’s Domestic Violence and Firearms Policy Summary.



Costs of Gun Violence

Firearm-related deaths and injuries result in estimated medical costs of $2.3 billion each year – half of which are borne by U.S. taxpayers.35

Once all the direct and indirect medical, legal and societal costs are factored together, the annual cost of gun violence in America amounts to $100 billion.36



Gun Ownership

Americans own an estimated 270 million firearms – approximately 90 guns for every 100 people.37



Gun Crimes

In 2007, nearly 70% of all murders nationwide were committed with a firearm.38

In 2007, 385,178 total firearm crimes were committed, including 11,512 murders, 190,514 robberies, and 183,153 aggravated assaults.39



Youth – Gun Violence & Gun Access

Guns cause the death of 20 children and young adults (24 years of age and under) each day in the U.S.40

Children and young adults (24 years of age and under) constitute over 41% of all firearm deaths and non-fatal injuries.41

In the United States, over 1.69 million kids age 18 and under are living in households with loaded and unlocked firearms.42

More than 75% of guns used in suicide attempts and unintentional injuries of 0-19 year-olds were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend.43

A 2000 study found that 55% of U.S. homes with children and firearms have one or more firearms in an unlocked place; 43% have guns without a trigger lock in an unlocked place.44

The practices of keeping firearms locked, unloaded, and storing ammunition in a locked location separate from firearms may assist in reducing youth suicide and unintentional injury in homes with children and teenagers where guns are stored.45

Many young children, including children as young as three years old, are strong enough to fire handguns.46



Dangers of Gun Use for Self-Defense

Using a gun in self-defense is no more likely to reduce the chance of being injured during a crime than various other forms of protective action.47

Of the 13,636 Americans who were murdered in 2009, only 215 were killed by firearms (165 by handguns) in homicides by private citizens that law enforcement determined were justifiable.48

A study reviewing surveys of gun use in the U.S. determined that most self-reported self-defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.49



The Dangers of Handguns

From 1993 to 2001, an annual average of 737,360 violent crimes were committed with handguns in the U.S., making handguns seven times more likely to be used to commit violent crimes than other firearms.50

Although handguns make up only 34% of firearms, approximately 80% of firearm homicides are committed with a handgun.51

Women face an especially high risk of handgun violence.52 In 2008, 71% of female homicide victims were killed with a handgun.53

A California study found that in the first year after the purchase of a handgun, suicide was the leading cause of death among handgun purchasers.54 In the first week after the purchase of a handgun, the firearm suicide rate among the purchasers was 57 times as high as the adjusted rate in the general population.55

A 1991 study documenting the effectiveness of Washington, D.C.’s law banning handguns (this law was recently repealed following the U.S. Supreme Court ruling finding it unconstitutional in District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 (2008)) found that following the enactment of the ban in 1976, there was a 25% decline in homicides committed with firearms and a 23% decline in suicides committed with firearms within the District of Columbia.56 No similar reductions were observed in the number of homicides or suicides committed by other means, nor were similar reductions found in the adjacent metropolitan areas in Maryland and Virginia.57

As a result of its now-repealed handgun ban, the District of Columbia had the lowest rate of youth suicide in the nation – lower than any state.58

For more information about the dangers of handguns, see the Violence Policy Center publication Unintended Consequences: Pro-Handgun Experts Prove that Handguns Are a Dangerous Choice for Self-Defense.

Dangers of Permissive Carrying Concealed Weapons (CCW) Laws

Shall-issue laws permitting the carrying of concealed firearms (CCW) (where law enforcement has no discretion in issuing a permit or license) do not appear to reduce crime, and no credible statistical evidence exists that such permissive CCW laws reduce crime. There is evidence permissive CCW laws generally will increase crime.59

A National Academy of Sciences report reviewing existing data on the effectiveness of firearm laws, including research purporting to demonstrate that concealed carry (also called “right-to-carry”) laws reduce crime, found that the “evidence to date does not adequately indicate either the sign or the magnitude of a causal link between the passage of right-to-carry laws and crime rates.”60

An analysis of Texas’ CCW law, (a law adopted in 1995 that overturned the state’s 125-year ban on concealed weapons), found that between January 1, 1996 and August 31, 2001, Texas license holders were arrested for 5,314 crimes, including murder, rape, kidnapping and theft.61

From 1996 to 2000, Texas CCW holders were arrested for weapons-related crimes at a rate 81% higher than that of the state’s general population age 21 and older.62

Since the Texas law took effect, more than 400 criminals – including rapists and armed robbers – had been issued CCW permits, and thousands of the 215,000 permit holders have been arrested for criminal behavior or found to be mentally unstable.63 The “largest category of problem licensees involve[d] those who committed crimes after getting their state” permits.64

Florida’s CCW system had, just in the first half of 2006, licensed more than 1,400 individuals who had pleaded guilty or no contest to felonies, 216 individuals with outstanding warrants, 128 people with active domestic violence injunctions against them, and six registered sex offenders.65

For additional information about the carrying of concealed weapons, including information on the dangers posed by carrying guns in public, see LCAV’s Report America Caught in the Crossfire: How Concealed Carry Laws Threaten Public Safety and our Carrying Concealed Weapons Policy Summary.



International/Comparative Statistics

The U.S. has the highest rate of firearm deaths among 25 high-income nations.66 Another study concluded that among 36 high-income and upper-middle-income countries, the U.S. has the highest overall gun mortality rate.67

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children under the age of 15 is nearly 12 times higher than that among children in 25 other industrialized nations combined.68

The firearm-related suicide rate for children between the ages of 5 and 14 years old in the United States is nearly 11 times higher than that in 25 other developed countries.69

Americans own far more civilian firearms – particularly handguns – than people in other industrialized nations and U.S. gun laws are among the most lax in the world.70



Guns in the Home/Safe Storage

Living in a home where there are guns increases the risk of homicide by 40 to 170% and the risk of suicide by 90 to 460%.71

Guns kept in the home are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal unintentional shooting, criminal assault or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.72

Having a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and firearm suicide in the home, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of guns in the home.73

Rather than conferring protection, guns in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.74

The relative risk of dying from an unintentional gunshot injury is 3.7 times higher for adults living in homes with guns, with handguns in the home posing a particular threat.75

States with higher rates of household firearm ownership have significantly higher homicide victimization rates.76

People who keep a gun in their home are almost twice as likely to die in a gun-related homicide and 16 times more likely to use a gun to commit suicide than people without a gun in their home.77

A study of firearm storage patterns in U.S. homes found that “[o]f the homes with children and firearms, 55% were reported to have one or more firearms in an unlocked place,” and 43% reported keeping guns without a trigger lock in an unlocked place.78

A recent study on adult firearm storage practices in U.S. homes found that over 1.69 million children and youth under age 18 are living in homes with loaded and unlocked firearms.79

Keeping a firearm unloaded and locked, with the ammunition stored in a locked location separate from the firearm, significantly decreases the risk of suicide and unintentional firearm injury and death involving both long guns and handguns. These safe storage measures serve as a “protective effect” and assist in reducing youth suicide and unintentional injury in homes with children and teenagers where guns are stored.80

The presence of unlocked guns in the home increases the risk not only of accidental gun injuries but of intentional shootings as well. One study found that more than 75% of the guns used in youth suicide attempts and unintentional injuries were stored in the residence of the victim, a relative, or a friend.81



Guns in the Workplace

In 2009, the most recent year for which data is available, approximately 81% of workplace homicides were committed with a firearm.82

While workplace homicides have decreased steadily over time, the rate of shootings committed by co-workers or former co-workers has remained steady, with an average of 45 homicides by shooting committed by a co-worker or former co-worker per year between 1992 and 2006.83

A 2005 study found that workplaces where guns were specifically permitted were five to seven times more likely to be the site of a worker homicide relative to those where all weapons were prohibited.84



Guns in Schools

A U.S. Secret Service study of 37 school shootings in 26 states found that in nearly two-thirds of the incidents, the attacker got the gun from his or her own home or that of a relative.85



Guns on Campus

College student gun owners are more likely than those who do not own guns to engage in activities that put themselves and others at risk for severe or life-threatening injuries, including reckless behavior involving alcohol, driving while intoxicated, and suffering an alcohol-related injury.86

One study found that two-thirds of gun-owning college students engage in binge drinking, and are more likely than unarmed college students to drink “frequently and excessively” and then engage in risky activities such as driving under the influence of alcohol and vandalizing property.87

Approximately 9 out of 10 college students who were victims of violent crime were victimized off campus.88 Firearms were used in only 9% of all violent crimes against college students over the period 1995-2002.89

Fewer than 2% of students reported being threatened with a gun while at college.90



Gun Trafficking/Private Sales

Interstate firearms trafficking flourishes, in part, because states regulate firearm sales differently and there is no federal limitation on the number of guns that an individual may purchase at any one time.91

More than half a million firearms are stolen each year in the United States and more than half of stolen firearms are handguns, many of which are subsequently sold illegally.92

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“ATF”) issued a comprehensive report in 2000 detailing firearms trafficking investigations involving more than 84,000 diverted firearms, finding that federally licensed firearms dealers were associated with the largest number of trafficked guns – over 40,000 – and concluded that the dealers’ “access to large numbers of firearms makes them a particular threat to public safety when they fail to comply with the law.”93

According to ATF, one percent of federally licensed firearms dealers are responsible for selling almost 60 percent of the guns that are found at crime scenes and traced to dealers.94

Nearly a quarter of ATF gun trafficking investigations involved stolen firearms and were associated with over 11,000 trafficked firearms – including 10% percent of the investigations which involved guns stolen from residences.95

A 1997 U.S. Department of Justice survey found that 8.4% of state prison inmates who used or possessed a firearm during the offense for which they were incarcerated obtained the gun from the illegal market.96

Random inspections by ATF have uncovered that a large percentage of dealers violate federal law, and that percentage is growing.97

An estimated 40% of the guns acquired in the U.S. annually come from unlicensed sellers who are not required by federal law to conduct background checks on gun purchasers.98

Nearly 80% of Mexico’s illegal firearms and most recovered crime guns in major Canadian cities are imported illegally from the U.S.99

For additional information on illegal gun trafficking and gun tracing, visit the Mayor’s Against Illegal Guns’ Trace Data Center. For additional information about private sales, including background information and state and local laws on the topic, see LCAV’s Private Sales Policy Summary.



Gun Shows

A recent study comparing gun shows in California (a state that regulates gun shows and private firearm transfers) with gun shows in states with little to no such regulation found that at gun shows in states with less regulation, straw purchases were more common, armed attendees selling guns were more common, and vendors were more likely to sell assault weapons and 50 caliber rifles.100

A study by ATF found that 25% to 50% of gun show vendors are unlicensed.101

ATF reviewed over 1,500 of its investigations and concluded that gun shows are a “major trafficking channel,” associated with approximately 26,000 firearms diverted from legal to illegal commerce. Gun shows rank second to corrupt dealers as a source for illegally trafficked firearms.102

From 2004 – 2006, ATF conducted 202 investigative operations at 195 guns shows, or roughly 3% of the gun shows held nationwide during this period. These operations resulted in 121 arrests and the seizure of 5,345 firearms.103

For additional information about gun shows, including background information and state and local laws on the topic, see LCAV’s Gun Shows Policy Summary.



Multiple Sales/Purchases

Handguns sold in multiple sales to the same individual purchaser are frequently used in crime.104

ATF crime gun trace data reveal that 22% of all handguns recovered in crime in 1999 had been transferred to a purchaser in a single sale involving multiple firearms (otherwise known as a “multiple sale”).105

Crime gun trace data from 2000 show that 20% of all retail handguns recovered in crime were purchased as part of a multiple sale.106

As a result of Virginia’s law restricting multiple sales, the odds of tracing a gun originally acquired in the Southeast to a Virginia gun dealer (as opposed to a dealer in a different southeastern state) dropped by 71% for guns recovered in New York, 72% for guns recovered in Massachusetts, and 66% for guns recovered in New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts combined.107

Jurisdictions with weaker firearms laws attract gun traffickers who make multiple purchases and resell those guns in jurisdictions with stronger firearms laws.108

For additional information about multiple sales or purchases of firearms, including background information and state and local laws on the topic, see LCAV’s Restrictions on Multiple Purchases or Sales of Firearms Policy Summary.



Assault Weapons/Large Capacity Ammunition Magazines

A study analyzing FBI data found that 20% of the law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty from 1998 to 2001 were killed with an assault weapon.109

As of 1994, 21% of civilian-owned handguns and 18% of all civilian-owned firearms were equipped with magazines that could hold 10 or more rounds.110

Guns equipped with large capacity magazines were involved in 14% to 26% of gun crimes prior to the federal assault weapon ban in 1994 (the ban expired in 2004), as compared with assault weapons, which accounted for 6% of gun crimes.111

Anecdotal evidence from law enforcement leaders suggests that military-style assault weapons are increasingly being used against law enforcement by drug dealers and gang members.112

For additional information about assault weapons and large capacity ammunition magazines, including background information and state and local laws on these topics, see LCAV’s Assault Weapons and Large Capacity Ammunition Magazines policy summaries.



Non-Powder Guns

Non-powder guns, including BB, air and pellet guns, injured 25,580 people in 2006, including 17,325 children age 19 or younger.113

From July 1993 to July 2003, non-powder guns caused 40 deaths nationwide.114 Although injury rates for non-powder guns appear to have declined significantly since the early 1990’s, non-powder guns are becoming more powerful and more accurate, and are often designed to appear almost indistinguishable from firearms.115

For additional information about non-powder guns, including background information and state and local laws on the topic, see LCAV’s Non-Powder Guns Policy Summary.



Personalized Firearms

Personalized firearms, also known as “smart” or “owner-authorized” guns, are firearms that can only be fired by the lawful owner or other authorized users. A 2003 study analyzing data from seven years of unintended firearm deaths or deaths of undetermined intent found that 37% of the deaths could have been prevented by a personalized gun.116


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism & Guns?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am really glad I live in a place where I have no need of a gun or any other sort of weapon. I would not want to lve in a place where the need to be armed was even a remote possibility.

I have not fired a weapon since the mid 80's, which is probably the last time I went target shooting with a friend. I have never personally owned a gun.

The only thing a gun is good for is killing things.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Perhaps one does't need Madhyamaka either. Masters use tools when needed. The complete path can be traversed without ever studying Madhyamaka.

Namdrol said:
Rarely.

N

adinatha said:
Drikungpas generally treat Mahamudra as free from extremes Madhyamaka. Or we can start a separate thread. But this one is about Western use of Madhyamaka. Here we've inherited all levels, and Madhyamaka still applies at all levels, even in Dzogchen as Mipham has written in "Beacon of Certainty."

Malcolm wrote:
The view of Madhyamaka applies for common and uncommon Mahayana, but the path of sutra and tantra are different and many concepts are different.

So here, we were discussing the idea of the three kāyas and Dharmakāya in particular from a Madhyamaka common Mahayana perspective. You might find it profitable to consult Mipham's comments in Introduction to the Middle Way, pg. 338-334.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
...the dharmakaya is caused? Or vidya?

Malcolm wrote:
It really depends on how you are defining dharmakāya and in what context.

So you need to decide whether we are talking about Madhyamaka, or we are talking about secret mantra tenets. If the latter, than we need to start a seperate thread. There is no concept of "dharmakāya of the basis" in Sutra.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Perhaps one does't need Madhyamaka either. Masters use tools when needed. The complete path can be traversed without ever studying Madhyamaka.

Malcolm wrote:
Rarely.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
These qualities do not arise from practice. They are truth, realized or not.

Malcolm wrote:
This sutra is talking about how to die. It is not listing qualities of dharmakāya.

The passage is not well translated, since it actually says that mind is the _cause_ of the arising of wisdom, thus, do not seek Buddhahood elsewhere.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Word Association Game
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
sweet


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
Namdrol said:
No, there is no problem with dharmakaya having qualities from a traditional Madhyamaka perspective.

Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
Don't understand. How can something free from extremes of existence and nonexistence "have qualities"? Isn't this like something Dolpopa would say? It just turns absence into an implicative negation.

Malcolm wrote:
You're confusing the gzhan stong assertion that ultimate truth has qualities with a Buddha'a dharmakāya having qualities. They are not the same thing. Buddha's dharmakāya is a result of realizing the complete path, hence, it's qualities listed in that link I provided are all connected with various stages of the path that have been realized.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Statements like this about luminosity, bodhicitta and such are what mediate against the "nothingness bias" can creep in during dharma study.

Malcolm wrote:
If someone has a nothingness bias, they have not understood Madhyamaka nor have they understood the two truths. One does not need Yogacara at all. One simply needs to understand the stage of the path and even the attainment of Buddhahood is all completely relative and not ultimate at all in any way, shape or form.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
Sure.

Namdrol said:
Then yes, from a Madhyamaka perspective, dharmakāya has (these) qualities.

N

adinatha said:
Okay so these qualities too:

"...all phenomena are completely pure by nature, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of absence of things. All phenomena are contained within bodhicitta, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of great compassion. All phenomena are luminous by nature, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of nonreferencing. All phenomena are impermanent, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of no attachment to anything. If the mind is realized, it is wisdom, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception that buddha is not to be sought elsewhere."

Point of Passage Wisdom Sutra

Pure. All-encompassing-Vajradhara. Luminous. Detached. Wisdom.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really sure of what your point is.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
Sure.

Namdrol said:
Then yes, from a Madhyamaka perspective, dharmakāya has (these) qualities.

N

Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
Well wait a minute now I am confused again if we say dharmakaya has qualities that is shentong view.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no problem with dharmakaya having qualities from a traditional Madhyamaka perspective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
Sure.

Malcolm wrote:
Then yes, from a Madhyamaka perspective, dharmakāya has (these) qualities.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
Nagarjuna also stated nirvana is peace. The Shentong point about sublime vision of the realized beings holds up. We are talking about the mind, not mental faculty, but the nature.

Malcolm wrote:
In terms of the path, there is no difference at all between the Yogacara presentation and the Madhyamaka presentation, so this is a kind of redundant thing to say.

The controversy is over whether there is a difference in view between Yogacara and Madhyamaka.

gzhan stong pas are Tibetan partisans of Yogacara who assert a)there is a diference between Cittamatra and Yogacara, and b1) Yogacara is either higher than Madhyamaka b2) or is a form of Madhyamaka with a difference in emphasis.

Basically, there are three alternatives:

Madhyamaka is higher than Yogacara
Madhyamaka and Yogacara have the same meaning with different emphasis
Madhyamaka is inferior to Yogacara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, August 5th, 2011 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
When dharmakaya's qualities are mentioned in the literature, i.e., yogacara, what is meant?

Malcolm wrote:
Can you provide a list? Do you mean things like the ten powers, four fearlessnesses and so on?

You mean this:

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Twenty-one_sets_of_immaculate_qualities " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
Namdrol said:
My point was that prior to this there are many introductions.

gregkavarnos said:
I believe that this idea of gradual vs immediate is a null point.  One must consider that for somebody to arrive at the point where they are being directly introduced to the nature of their mind "off the bat" that somewhere, during their infinite previous lifetimes, they have received instructions again and again, accumulted infinite merit, etc...  Just coz it happens to mature in this lifetime, in this manner, does not mean that it happened suddenly and without a gradual progression.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
booker said:
Well, at least Zen seems to give a strong foundation for development of spiritual materialism in Vajaryanists/Maha-Mudra/Ati community


Malcolm wrote:
Not really. The point is not to convert people, or feel superior. The point is to help people wake up (if that's what they want to do) as fast as humanly possible. This is also the motivation of Chan and Zen based on the sudden approach taught in the Lanka-avatara sutra.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


alpha said:
Would it be accurate to say that WHATEVER he says is actually pointing out?

Malcolm wrote:
Whenever Rinpoche is talking about Dzogchen, he is giving direct introduction.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
Namdrol said:
I mean that there is no rang stong at all from a Madhyamaka perspective

Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
Does this mean that it is not correct to say that prasangika is an empty-of-self view?

It is not correct to call Prasangika a rang stong view.
Emptiness like space (svatantrika) clearly seems to be an empty-of-self view.
Svatantrika is another Tibetan fabrication. There is no difference between the views of Bhavavike and Candrakirti when it comes to ultimate truth -- the difference between them is soley pedagogical.
Free from extremes beyond thought and expression - you are saying this is neither a self-empty nor an other-empty view?

Malcolm wrote:
How could freedom from extremes be intrinsically or extrinsically empty, based on the Nāgārjuna citation I provided above?

Here is another one:

Since arising, abiding, and perishing are not established, the conditioned is not established. 
Since the condition is never established, how will the unconditioned be established?

Basically the rang stong/gzhan stong controversy is bullshit, and so is the prasangika/svatantrika controversy.

If you want to understand Madhyamaka, don't read Tibetan accounts of Madhyamaka dating after the 13th century. And here, it is better still just to rely on Indian masters. The sole exception to this is Khenpa Shenga's treatises, which are just Indian commentaries turned into footnoted annotations of root texts.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


Acchantika said:
By equating Rangtong with a Shentong-created straw-man, do you mean that the so-called 'Rangtong' is simply Madhyamaka properly understood, or do you mean that the two views are in fact complementary and not contrasting?

Malcolm wrote:
I mean that there is no rang stong at all from a Madhyamaka perspective: Nāgārjuna states:

If there were something subtle not empty, there would be something subtle to be empty, 
as there is nothing not empty, where is there something to be empty?

I mean that there is no rang stong at all, apart from what the gzhan stong pas have fabricated.

The gzhan stong controversy arose out of a need by Tibetans to reconcile the five treatises of Maitreya with Nāgārjuna's Collection of Reasoning based upon the erroneous historical idea that the five treatises were authored by the bodhisattva Maitreya rather than a human being (who incidentally was probably Asanga's teacher).

In my opinion, the five treatises were a collection of texts meant to explicate the three main thrusts of Indian Mahāyāna sutras, Prajñāpāramita, Tathāgatagarbha, and Yogacāra. Four of the five are devoted to these three topics independently, with the Abhisamaya-alaṃkara devoted to Prajñāpāramita; Uttaratantra devoted to Tathāgatagarbha; and the two Vibhangas devoted to Yogacāra . The last, the Sutra-alaṃkara is an attempt to unify the thought of these three main trends in Mahāyāna into a single whole, from a Yogacara perspective.

When these treatises arrived in Tibetan, at the same time, a text attributed tothe original Bhavaviveka, but probably by a later Bhavaviveka, translated under Atisha's encouragement, called Tarkajvala, presented the broad outline of what we know call today " the four tenet systems".

In this text, the three own natures and so on were presented in a very specific way from a Madhyamaka perspective and labelled "cittamatra".

So, the gzhan stong controversy (with additional input from Vajrayāna exegesis based on a certain way of understand the three bodhisattva commentaries) is about reconciling Madhyamaka with Yogacara.

Personally, I see no need to attempt to reconcile Madhyamaka and Yogacara. Madhyamaka is the pinnacle of sutra explication. But Tibetans did and still seem to need to do so, and they have passed on this need to their students.

But from my perspective, one cannot go beyond freedom from extremes.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


alpha said:
I either have a very narrow understanding of what pointing out means...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. You think that sems tri is the only way to communicate the knowledge of Dzogchen. This is not true. Sems tri is a later system borrowed from Kagyu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
Namdrol said:
One you have realized emptiness on the path of seeing, by definition you cannot have a deteriation in view.

Acchantika said:
This implies that realisation of emptiness automatically entails right view.

However, if this were so there would be no debate between Shangtong and Rangtong.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, realization of emptiness automatically entails having right view.

Your next statement presumes that those debating gzhan stong and rang stong have realized emptiness.

Since rang stong is just a strawman set up by gzhan stong pas, there is really no debate between gzhan stong and rang stong since there is no rang stong Madhyamaka except in the imagination of those who call themselves "gzhan stong" Madhyamakas.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Word Association Game
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
movement


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim
Content:
adinatha said:
Yeah I've looked at that before. Really cool.

Malcolm wrote:
Their designs are energy expensive -- only possible 50 years ago.

We are heading back to a wood-based economy. The only problem with that is that we do not have good forest managment skills.

We have enough coal for the next three hundred years or so, but that is not fantastic.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 8:33 PM
Title: Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim
Content:
adinatha said:
Full-blown communism if not just socialism will have to be revisted. Marx predicted that communism would be preceded by a sort of technological apex of the capitalist regime. So then, previous communist regimes were premature. If you believe the futurists, they predict a techno apex this century, "the singularity." If what they are saying is so, the future will be beyond anything we can imagine now.

Malcolm wrote:
Marx thought capitalism was progressive, and you are correct, in his view, advanced capitialism was required before a successful socialism, etc.

What he did not understand was peak oil.

Same with the futurists. It used to be the case that we got a 300:1 return on energy invested in oil recovery. Now we are down to 10:1.

People who live in cities, who depend on the petro-driven civilization, are in for it. People who live in the country, who can grow food, will have more resiliance.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 8:20 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
alpha said:
But does RInpoche ever give pointing out instructions or direct introductions to rigpa as part of a webcast?

Malcolm wrote:
Always.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 8:19 PM
Title: Re: Word Association Game
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
prudent


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Escapism,Buddhism, and the Soul
Content:
ananda said:
1. In a few books I have read based on Vaishnavite teachings it is said that in Buddhism a soul is not said to exist is this true ?...But if an eternal soul does not exist then what is it that dies and is reborn again and what is the ultimate fate of all sentient-beings ?

2. Someone I met once commented that how he thinks that Buddhism seems to be a more escapist approach to life and he comments on how we should not cease to desire because ceasing to desire would be denying our humanity and to deny our humanity would be to reject life itself. How would I contend with this view ?

3. Does a Buddha cease to accumulate all karma ? I once read how in Jainism a siddha (liberated one) will not help a suffering being because he has gone beyond all desires

Malcolm wrote:
1: Buddha taught that there was a conventional person, but no eternal soul or self. Since rebirth occurs on a conventional level, there is no contradiction between the non-existence of an eternal soul and rebirth. What take rebirth is a impermanent, momentary consciousness driven by ignorance.

2: That person does not understand Buddhism and does not understand the meaning of happiness. True happiness comes from being free from all bonds. Desire is a bond.

3: The Buddha ceases to engage in negative actions that bear a future result. All actions of a Buddha bear a positive result.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 7:40 PM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
narraboth said:
There are a lot of comparisons between Dzogchen and Zen in China/Chinese Buddhists since Dzogchen was introduced to China.
Surely there are lots of differences in methods, but I personally think the similarity is quite obvious,

Malcolm wrote:
Read Nubchen -- he states that Mahayoga (not to mention Dzogchen) is superior to Chan because of the means of introduction, even though Chan is a sudden school and Mahayoga is gradual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 7:28 PM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
The criticism of this view is that it is veiled nihilism. Whereby Madhyamaka must be relegated to a tool for deconstructing views. Whereas, the real "not non-being" is the Shentongpa's view.

Namdrol said:
That criticism is invalid.

On the other hand, gzhan stong is tainted with a subtle eternalism since they assert wisdom exists, and hence are realists, and in reality inhabit an intermediate place between cittamatra and madhyamaka.

N

adinatha said:
Or they are not tainted by a veiled nihilism. Does the dharmakaya have qualities?

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on what one means by qualities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 11:54 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
The criticism of this view is that it is veiled nihilism. Whereby Madhyamaka must be relegated to a tool for deconstructing views. Whereas, the real "not non-being" is the Shentongpa's view.

Malcolm wrote:
That criticism is invalid.

On the other hand, gzhan stong is tainted with a subtle eternalism since they assert wisdom exists, and hence are realists, and in reality inhabit an intermediate place between cittamatra and madhyamaka.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 11:33 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Never existent in the first place, seems like nihilism to me. What about the yogi's realization in equipoise? Not non-existent now.

Malcolm wrote:
Ucchedavada requires that an existent becomes non-existent, for example, a self that exists now and then perishes later.

Apart from what has been realized and has not been realized, there is no [present] realization.

As Haribhadra pointed out, the path, including the realization of buddhahood, is all completely illusory.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 11:17 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Well that certainly doesn't exist. Where does the part about not non-being come in?

Malcolm wrote:
What does not arise does not perish; and not existent, cannot become non-existent.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 11:00 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
It's defined by the horizon and by its color; so, still part of rupadhātu.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh okay. So unconditioned space is just a definition?[/quote]

Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 10:50 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
So when you look into space you see a definition?

Namdrol said:
That kind of space is conditioned space, defined by enclosure and area -- for example, the space of a room. When talking about space, one ought to define which space one is referring to, conditioned or unconditioned space.

But even when one "looks into space" what one is seeing is not "area" qua "area" but rather a shape defined by apparant colors which is part of the rupadhātu, the object of the eye.
N

adinatha said:
How about the wide open sky?

Malcolm wrote:
It's defined by the horizon and by its color; so, still part of rupadhātu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 10:17 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
So when you look into space you see a definition?

Malcolm wrote:
That kind of space is conditioned space, defined by enclosure and area -- for example, the space of a room. When talking about space, one ought to define which space one is referring to, conditioned or unconditioned space.

But even when one "looks into space" what one is seeing is not "area" qua "area" but rather a shape defined by apparant colors which is part of the rupadhātu, the object of the eye.
N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 10:07 AM
Title: Re: 'Non-duality' and 'neutrality'
Content:
adinatha said:
It is true that something false can harm me. For example, someone might see me as Osama bin Laden's cousin and shoot me. So a falsity is in the realm of being.

Namdrol said:
No, what harmed you was the bullet.

N

adinatha said:
I can't file charges against a bullet.


Malcolm wrote:
You can't file charges again a delusion, either.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 10:05 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
Namdrol said:
And, we do not see space.

adinatha said:
Really? How do you know that?

Malcolm wrote:
Through the definition of space i.e. as unconditioned and as absence of obstruction.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: 'Non-duality' and 'neutrality'
Content:


username said:
While I am an admirer of your translation as well as Valby's more than anyone else's, both crisp precise and simple yet extremely difficult to achieve, I can't believe any other translator limits the use of non-dual only to gnyis med and it's legitimate definition to those few words. Many translators use non-dual for a variety of subjects within view and methods: emptiness & clarity, emptiness & bliss, emptiness & non-thought, emptiness & awareness, meditator & yoga/path/view, meditator & guru/deity, meditator & trikayas, Kadak & Lhundrub, etc. etc.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, whenever we say that something is inseperable or non-dual with emptiness, whether we are talking ka dag, dharmakāya, etc. we are talking abot the fact that at basis, there is no being and or non-being upon which all of this clarity, appearance, path, yoga, three kaȳas, you name it, etc., can be based.

And often enough translators decide to translate dbyer med as non-dual, even though dbyer med is asaṁbhedaḥ, inseparable.

I am just a bigger pain in the ass than most translators and more insisitent that translations reflect and are completely consistent with buddhist view so that crypto-hindu notions stay out of our school.

Even Norbu Rinpoche asserts that in his rdzog chen skor dris len that Dzogchen view does not go beyond Madhyamaka in terms of formal statements of the view, citing Sakya Pandita to the effect that if there would something beyond freedom from extremes, that would be an extreme, and so on.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Perception is not a position.

Malcolm wrote:
No, but the statement "I know that I know", presented as an irreducible fact, is.

adinatha said:
What is knowing what has not been known?

Malcolm wrote:
It is part of the dialectic, something known depends on something which has not been known. What Nagarjunga is pointing out is that there is no "knowing". His dialectic serves to negate all present tense as well as infinitive verbal forms i.e. Apart from what has been perceived and not been perceived, there is no perception, etc.


adinatha said:
How do we see space? Is space an object?

Malcolm wrote:
Space i.e. akasha, unconditioned space is not an object and it is not real. When Nagarjuna analyzes the five elements, he begins with space, shows that it is unreal because everyone accepts that space (as defined by Buddhists and other Indians) is unreal and then says, apply this reasoning to the other four elements.

And, we do not see space. It is not an object. This is one of the reasons Buddhists use it as a metaphor for the mind.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 8:40 AM
Title: Re: 'Non-duality' and 'neutrality'
Content:
adinatha said:
It is true that something false can harm me. For example, someone might see me as Osama bin Laden's cousin and shoot me. So a falsity is in the realm of being.

Malcolm wrote:
No, what harmed you was the bullet.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 8:22 AM
Title: Re: 'Non-duality' and 'neutrality'
Content:
adinatha said:
it also means not grasping true or false.

Malcolm wrote:
Whatever is asti is satya (true), whatever is nasti as mithya (false), so at base, it really is about freedom from asti (being) and nasti (non-being).

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Not eye faculty seeing. "Seeing," as in "I know, I see." For example, how do we "see" space? Is space an object?

When there's no seeing, how do you know?

Malcolm wrote:
The same thing applies "Apart from what has been known and what has not been known, there is no present knowing".

The mental faculty is not exempt from this.

Once you take a position such as you have i.e. "I know that I know", you are dogmeat.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 7:52 AM
Title: Re: 'Non-duality' and 'neutrality'
Content:
username said:
In translations of texts and by teachers who speak English, non-dual is often used in numerous instances of various methods and view explanations within Dzogchen alone, so it depends on the context and the stage and that particuar teaching. Ultimately view-wise in English texts and teachings it is often used for non-dualness of Kadak-Lhundrob within Dzogchen though each translator or lama has his/her personal choice of words for various occasions.


Malcolm wrote:
"Non-dual" i.e. gnyis med/advaya means the absence of the duality of being and non-being.

In Yogacara, it can mean absence of subject and object, but the reason for this is that ultimately there is an absence of being and non-being.

Even when we talk about the inseparability of original purity and natural formation, kadag and lhundrup, this inseparability is actually predicated on the non-duality that I mentioned above. When we talk about freedom from the four extremes, the eight extremes and so on, it is all, in the end predicated on the absence of being and non-being. That absence of being and non-being is the essence of what the term "non-dual" means in Buddhist texts.

It is not a translation or terminology issue, it is just a basic fact of Buddhist view.

N

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 7:46 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Seeing and knowing continuous and effortless.

Malcolm wrote:
Seeing without an object to see? Such seeing is useless as well as impossible. Apart from what has been seen and what has not been seen, there is no present seeing.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 7:27 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
Seeing?

Malcolm wrote:
Seeing isn't a charateristic, it is an action.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 6:42 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
So Madhyamaka is not really a view, but a destructive tactic when responding to others' opinions? Then taking evasive maneuvers when the opponent takes aim? I wonder about why one would get involved?

Namdrol said:
How could Madhyamaka be a view? What is there that can be seen? But out of compassion for others addicted to views, first Buddha, than Nagarjuna, correct views via the middle way.

N

adinatha said:
Very nice. But can't one see one's own mind?

Malcolm wrote:
Through what characeristic would it [the mind] be seen?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
So Madhyamaka is not really a view, but a destructive tactic when responding to others' opinions? Then taking evasive maneuvers when the opponent takes aim? I wonder about why one would get involved?

Malcolm wrote:
How could Madhyamaka be a view? What is there that can be seen? But out of compassion for others addicted to views, first Buddha, than Nagarjuna, correct views via the middle way.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
Is that right?

Namdrol said:
Is that wrong?

adinatha said:
I defer to you.


Malcolm wrote:
The great 11th Nyingma scholar Rongzom points out that only Madhyamaka accepts that its critical methodology "harms itself", meaning that Madhyamaka uses non-affirming negations to reject the positions of opponents, but does not resort to affirming negations to support a position of its own. Since Madhyamaka, as Buddhapalita states "does not propose the non-existence of existents, but instead rejects claims for the existence of existents", there is no true Madhyamaka position since there is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be formulated; likewise there is no false Madhyamaka position since there is no existent found about which a Madhyamaka position could be rejected.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:


adinatha said:
Is that right?

Malcolm wrote:
Is that wrong?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Word Association Game
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
witty


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, August 4th, 2011 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment of Mahayanists and Vajrayanists
Content:
sangyey said:
What constitutes attaining Bodhi (awakening)? Is if a specific level on the path,iI.e., paths of seeing, meditation, etc?


Malcolm wrote:
The path of seeing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Commitment Issues
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Pema,

Ah, but I think that is for good practitioners.


Malcolm wrote:
It's for any practitioner. Reading a bunch lists about hells does not help anyone. Kepp it tight and keep it personal, than it will have a real effect on one's continuum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Commitment Issues
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
I believe most of the problem is that once one has an intellectual grasping of the 4 thoughts, one thinks one doesn't need to spend much more time with them.

Malcolm wrote:
The basic problem with the four thoughts is that they are presented in very meideval language and people become expert in artificial contemplations that do not reach their heart.

You are going to die, sooner rather than later.
Your friends and family are leaving you right now, not at some later time.
Right now you could be practicing dharma, but you are wasting your time with worldly foolishness [jobs, families, car payments]
There is no happiness, anywhere. Don't delude yourself that there is.
All your present happiness and suffering is a result of karma. If you do not want to suffer in future, practice Dharma.

We all know the above are true, and we all make tons of excuses for not doing anything about it.

If you are not in tears from practicing the above, your contemplation is not working into your heart.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: 'Non-duality' and 'neutrality'
Content:


mindyourmind said:
" I practice Dzogchen. I try to be in a state of non-duality. As such I try to avoid getting my mind involved in discursive thoughts. I endeavour not to get involved in judgmental decisions of right and wrong. As such, I do not approve or disapprove of the Nazi's killing millions of people during the Second World War. I therefore stand neutral as to the death of those people."

Malcolm wrote:
This is would be nihilism posing as Dzogchen. Incorrect understanding of Dzogchen.

"Non-dual" in Dzogchen in Dzogchen is no different than non-dual in Madhyamaka - it means that the categories of being and non-being are cognitive errors.

Also in Dzogchen practice one does not seek to avoid discursive thoughts. One seeks to recognize their actual state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment of Mahayanists and Vajrayanists
Content:
himalayanspirit said:
Shurangama Sutra claims that for one to attain perfect enlightenment, one has to complete eliminate all desires - especially sexual desires. Notable examples of our era is Venerable Hsu Yun who attained enlightement.

But the Vajrayanists - especially Tibetan Buddhists - claim that indulging in sexual practices is a must for one to attain enlightenment. There are many examples of Tibetan Yogis who attained enlightenment like this.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayanist assert that in this day and age no one can give up attachment to sensual objects, therefor objects used for one's own gratification must be taken into the path. Hence the many kinds of offerings you find in Vajrayāna.

However, even in Vajrayāna the purpose is not to indulge the afflictions but rarther to transform the basis from which they arise. If you truly perceive everything to be a mandala of deities, than you will cease to engage in attachment and aversion. When that happens, you will cease to activate the three poisons.

So, the approach of Vajrayāna is to transform, rather than renounce.

himalayanspirit said:
Now who is true between them? Who attains the real enlightenment? Also, what is the difference between "enlightenment" and "attaining Nirvana"? It is said in the Mahayana scriptures that one has to spend many eons and lives practicing as a Bodhisattva to attain enlightenment; yet many Chan masters attained enlightenment in one life itself?

Malcolm wrote:
Awakening (bodhi) and Buddhahood are two different things -- those who have attained awakening are nevertheless still on the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: shilajit
Content:
Adamantine said:
Great thank you, that's very informative.

Does TM also consider it a rejuvenative that increases
seminal essence? This appears to be a quality ascribed to it
by Auyerveda.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
booker said:
]
Again this depends what is meant by Sutra.

Malcolm wrote:
Sutra means the method is taught. The method of Chan/Zen is ultimately grounded in the Lanka-avatara sutra's sudden approach.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 12:58 PM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
ray said:
Going back to an earlier question, on pointing out in Dzogchen and in Zen, actually there is pointing out in Zen, and this is what the interactions in Koans are.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not what pointing out means in Vajrayāna. The koan process and the process of pointing out instruction in Dzogchen is completely different.



ray said:
An example of pointing out in Zen that is also a Koan is that the Buddha went to the front of the assembly, sat down, and held up a flower and smiled.  Mahakashyapa's mind opened--he saw what was being pointed out.  Sometimes a teacher would tell the students to leave.

Malcolm wrote:
No, Mahakashyapa was already awake. In Zen, transmission is given by one awakened person to another (theoretically). Transmission is never given to a complete beginner, as in Vajrayana.

ray said:
When they were all leaving, he would ask them where they were going.  When they turned around, he would say, "What is it?" or shout "Katz!"  When students asked a question or gave an answer and the teacher shouted, "Katz!", this functions to stop the thinking and bring awareness out clearly, sserving the same purpose as "PHAT!" does in Dzogchen practice or empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but this is incorrect. Zen completely lacks the presentation of the basis, the introduction of the three kāyas, etc., etc.

ray said:
All the different ways of pointing out or direct introduction that Longchen Rabjampa mentions in the Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission are used in Zen for the same purpose.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is an incorrect assertion.

ray said:
But in Zen it is also said that phenomena themselves can point out the nature to us, not only a teacher.  Then the teacher would confirm.  But a teacher makes it a whole lot more likely it will happen, and by being around him and him or her using the methods of pointing out, we may get it.  Both in Zen and Dzogchen, they say that the teacher is always pointing out the nature directly.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a misconception. Zen does not go beyond sutra. There is no experiential direct introduction in Zen or Chan.

ray said:
And after really getting the pointing out in Zen, ones practice changes completely, because then the point is to become more accustomed to ones true nature, the true nature of things, either by further koan study or just sitting and resting in that nature.  Much like in Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not like Dzogchen at all.

ray said:
I say this on the basis of practice in the Zen and Vajrayana/Dzogchen traditions, getting the pointing in each (having satori confirmed by a Zen teacher, practicing koan and getting the nature pointed out, getting the pointing out in the context of the fourth empowerment).

Malcolm wrote:
There is no equivalent to the fourth empwowerment in Zen. Doesn't exist.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 12:38 PM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Madhyamaka is not true.


Namdrol said:
Madyamala has no position, true and false do not apply.

adinatha said:
Is that true?

Malcolm wrote:
In order make the evaluation "Madhyamaka is "true" or "not true", you would have to assess what a Madhyamaka position might be. If you cannot assess such a position, claiming either truth or falsity with regard to Madhyamaka is erroneous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 6:51 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
adinatha said:
Madhyamaka is not true.


Malcolm wrote:
Madyamala has no position, true and false do not apply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 6:49 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
conebeckham said:
So, does Dṛṣṭih refer to a "conceptual framework" or "approximate emptiness," or does it refer to an actual, experiental sort of "resting" in your opinion, Namdrol?  I hope my question is clear.....?

Malcolm wrote:
It refers to an example emptiness arrived at through analysis when you are a common person.

One you have realized emptiness on the path of seeing, by definition you cannot have a deteriation in view.

We can therefore understand here that "view" refers to analytical emptiness since that is the only view susceptible to deterioration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:



conebeckham said:
..I'd be interested to know what the original word for "The view" is in the section Namdrol quoted...as I'd bet it is not merely a conceptual assertion.
??


Malcolm wrote:
Dṛṣṭih -- it is means in this case the view of emptiness.  The reasoning, according to the Indian commentaries, is that discipline is something one practices only for one's own benefit. The view of emptiness is cultivated for both oneself and others.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 5:43 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Fa Dao said:
When we say "Knowledge" of the natural state is rigpa, by "knowledge" we mean gnosis not knowledge as in the acquisition of intellectual data, right?

Malcolm wrote:
By knowledge, we mean that you know what is being discussed. No need to gum up the works with fancy words like gnosis. In the beginning you need to acquire intellectual data. Then you need to apply it. This is all part of "rigpa".

If you say that rigpa is only a "gnosis" than this makes things more complicated --it means in order to have that knowledge you must already be awakened. But this is not the case. Rigpa is the knowledge you have that allows you to wake up.  Rigpa is a complicated word in Dzogchen texts, and has different meanings in different contexts, but generally it just means knowledge, which in English is the antonym of ignorance (ma rig pa). Conceptual knowledge is inlcuded under the general definition of vidyā, this is a poorly understood point.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
conebeckham said:
In general, people talk a lot about Madhyamaka but all the talk in the world won't bring one to a decisive point....though it's helpful to understand, and talk helps--to a point.

Jnana said:
Indeed. Without the integral development of appropriate ethical conduct and meditative composure and the rest of the perfections it's just talk. Apart from these components of practice it really isn't even Buddhadharma.

All the best,

Geoff

Malcolm wrote:
A deterioration in discipline is allowable,
but never the view;
discipline leads to higher realms,
the view leads to the supreme stage.

-- Aryadeva.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: shilajit
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Shilajt, according to Tibetan Medicine, is cooling and balancing, and is used to remove heat. It can be used as a chulen, and it is present in many medicines since it enhances their effects. It is especially good for removing heat in liver and gall bladder.

It is true that some in Ayurveda considers it to be warming, etc. However, in the treatise Astangha Hridaya it asserts that the taste of shilajit is bitter, and that it's effect is "not very hot", but its post-digestive effect is hot.

So there there some slight differences in how this herb is understood, but in the main, the two systems are not really far apart in how the prepare and use this substance.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2011 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: Kukai's Vajra and Bell
Content:



Huseng said:
Amazing to see these up close. I stood there a good fifteen minutes looking them over and just imagining where they came from.

Malcolm wrote:
These were mostly likley manufactured in Java. This style of bell and dorje is typical of Javanese vajras and bells cast during that period.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2011 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka
Content:
mudra said:
Wasn't sure where to post this so if mods find a better place for it, thank you!

I came across this list by D Seyfort Ruegg from his "The Literature of the Madhyamaka School" which enumerates the various early opinions of Western scholars regarding Madhyamaka and Nagarjuna in particular:

"...nihilism, monism, irrationalism, misology, agnosticism, scepticism, criticism, dialectic, mysticism, acosmism, absolutism, relativism, nominalism, and linguistic analysis with therapeutic value."

What a loads of 'ism's!!! Of course today the debate continues, as it has ever since Arya Nagarjuna, as to what the Madhyamaka he set forth actually is. Even amongst practicing Buddhists we debate so much about it, I wonder if non-Buddhist scholars using intellect alone can possibly ever really get it?


Malcolm wrote:
"If I had a position, I would be at fault,
Since I alone have no position, I alone am without fault"

-- Vigrahavyavartani.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2011 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Word Association Game
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
lizard


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2011 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Why is possible to achieve Buddhahood?
Content:
Tsondue Sangmo said:
I am trying to understand the possibility for a sentient being to achieve Buddhahood as is view, I think, in general Mahayana Buddhism. In this sense, I do not want to imagine what a Buddha can be, but just to take and understand Buddhist scriptures in the literal sense, if this is the correct approach.

Malcolm wrote:
A buddha is defined as someone who has removed the two obscurations, affliction and knowledge, and gathered the two accumulations, merit and wisdom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2011 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Why is possible to achieve Buddhahood?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[quote="Tsondue Sangmo"]How is possible for human beings (or sentient beings in general) to achieve the qualities of a perfect being called a Buddha?
/quote]

If you are going to take this approach, you need to define your goal: what do you imagine Buddhahood is? In other words, you need to define those qualities. Within that definition you will begin to discover your answer.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2011 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Cancer
Content:
Chaz said:
A few years ago, I was diagnosed with a very low-grade, Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma.

I am not symptomatic at present.

I have recieved no treatments to address this condition.  We are in a watch and wait mode with the disease.

My oncologist has said that it's quite possible that I would die with this cancer rather than from it.

A routine CT scan taken two weeks ago indicates little/no growth of this cancer in the last year. The lymph node being watched  is isolated in the mezentary tissues beneath my navel.

My question is how does/would Tibetan medicine approach such a condition?  I'm not neccessarily looking for cure here, but would be most interested in regimines aimed at maintenance.

If Namdrol is reading, it's my understanding that you have a collegue in Boulder CO.  Is that true?

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Chaz:

Yes, Nashalla Nyinda and her husband, Tsondu have a practice in Boulder.

It could be treated with a variety of herbs and therapies, including cleanses, to try address the issue specifically by restoring balance to the lymph system, etc.

You should give them a call:

http://holistic-health.org/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2011 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:


Namdrol said:
Yes. Thoughts arise from that state and return to it.

Clarence said:
So, what you are saying, if I understand correctly, is that the Natural State and thoughts are like a package which is encompassed and known by Rigpa?

Malcolm wrote:
RIgpa is knowing what reality is. Like wine, it ages and deepens. Unlike wine, it never "falls apart", though continued familiarity with it matures it faster.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Long Life Empowerment by His Holiness’ Sakya Trizin
Content:
conebeckham said:
Namdrol--If I get it, I'll translate it, and you can check my translation!  yes?
I have no direct contact with His Holiness, though I had one private interview years ago, but I have a friend who may be able to help.....

(I have a short phoneticized version, pretty short with the visualization description, maybe 12-16 lines, the praise, the mantra, and the dissolution......but no English, and no real Tibetan from which to translate)....


Malcolm wrote:
Just as long as I get the text...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism and Martial Arts
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Most people have no reason to learn martial arts. We do not live in a country inhabited by bandits, though in some places they still exist.

It is easy to avoid personal confrontations.

That being said, of course one has the basic right to defend oneself and to defend others is need arises.

N


Namdrol said:
I find that learning martial arts, even Tai Chi, promotes basic aggressive behavior and certain way of thinking about others that involves imagining how to harm them in hypothetical situations.

mr. gordo said:
Yup, I completely I agree and commented the same very early in this thread.  I guess I was wondering if the general reasoning for at least learning basic self-defense would be allowed. Like in the Jataka tales (Ja.V.109), it says

"...Always protect those who live justly."

Or the Mahaparinibbana sutta:

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis duly protect and guard the arahats, so that those who have not come to the realm yet might do so, and those who have already come might live there in peace?"
"I have heard, Lord, that they do."
"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline."

Or in the Vibhaṅga, there is no offense for a bhikkhu who, trapped in a difficult situation, gives a blow "desiring freedom."
Yoga has all the benefits of martial arts and none of the downsides.

My personal top pick of yoga traditions:

https://vinyasakramayoga.blogspot.com/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You recommended me to study at Yoga Sutra, and I'll be going for private
lessons later this year to have a personalized daily practice taught to me.
I'm pretty excited.  Also read the Krishnamacharya bio by Mohan a couple
of weeks ago and it was quite inspiring.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Clarence said:
Do I understand that right?

Namdrol said:
Yes, you do.

Clarence said:
When recognizing the Natural State, can one have thoughts?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Thoughts arise from that state and return to it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism and Martial Arts
Content:
Huseng said:
Buddhism teaches ahimsa or non-violence, so learning how to fight is inappropriate. Spend that time eradicating your negative emotions and greed.

mr. gordo said:
Huseng, do you think learning self-defense is to be completely excluded for Mahayana / Vajrayana lay people?

Malcolm wrote:
I find that learning martial arts, even Tai Chi, promotes basic aggressive behavior and certain way of thinking about others that involves imagining how to harm them in hypothetical situations.

Yoga has all the benefits of martial arts and none of the downsides.

My personal top pick of yoga traditions:

https://vinyasakramayoga.blogspot.com/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Clarence said:
Do I understand that right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Namdrol said:
Yes. Mostly because you can become distracted, and that is ignorance.

Clarence said:
I think I start to understand. I am quite the same as some others here. When I look, nothing is found. Resting in that, thoughts come up. Then it is gone, until I remember.

Malcolm wrote:
Rigpa is something that one slowly develops over time, until one has complete confidence in the meaning of the teachings.

The term rigpa is used in different ways in Dzogchen teachings, so one has to be very specific. It does not have univerally applied meaning like "consciousness" for example. This is because Rig is both a noun and a verb in Tibetan, depending on the word ending.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: This thing in my eye...
Content:
Jikan said:
I have something called Cellophane Maculopathy.  (sometimes goes by the trade name "Macular Pucker.")  I have likely had this since childhood, but now it is starting to interfere with my life.  Eventually it will worsen to the point where I will require surgery or lose sight in the affected eye.  This may take decades.

My question:  can TM offer any guidance on slowing the growth of such a thing as snotty crinkly film in the macula of a man's eye?


Malcolm wrote:
These conditions are generally speaking treated with eye surgery in addition to herbal medicines. First, we would have to find out the humoral cause of the illness, and so on, then we can optimize the pre- and post surgical treatment.

See your eye surgeon. Have it taken care of.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: A Question on Shunyata and Awareness
Content:
sangyey said:
In ordinary mind terms is this clarity an aspect of mindfulness or is it vigilance?

Malcolm wrote:
Niether -- it is an instant of reflexive knowing devoid of the external object that is known. It is what allows us to perceive any object by adopting that object's aspect.  When we learn to identify that reflexive knowing in itself, that is called "resting in clarity" and that is the essence of shamatha practice.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
[
Yes, although it's subtle and easy to miss. Your statement technically is saying that the natural state, having been correctly recognized, is rigpa, whereas Namdrol's is more precisely saying that it is actually the recognition or knowledge itself which is referred to as rigpa.

Clarence said:
At the moment of recognition, is there a difference between the two?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Mostly because you can become distracted, and that is ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Reading strategy: study widely or deeply?
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
Panditas attain enlightenment quicker than kusuli's?

How is this so? could you post something in support of this

thanks

Malcolm wrote:
Sakya Pandita addresses this question extensively in his reply to Nyemo Gomchen:


There are two kinds of Buddhist panditas and Buddhist kusalis i.e. the panditas and kusalis of the perfection vehicle will become Buddhas, but it takes a long time, three incalculable eons and so on. The pair of panditas and kusalis of the secret mantra vehicle quickly attain Buddhahood because of the arrangement of inner interconnections.  In addition, a so called “pandita” is described as “A scholar in the foundation of outer and inner objects of knowledge.” A so called “kusali” is described as “One who inwardly has the most dedication inwardly after severing all outer distractions.”

In terms of actual perfect Buddhahood: first, having become knowledgeable about all objects of knowledge the pandita has severed doubt through hearing, reflection and meditation. Then, because of severing doubt through meditating which makes samadhi essential, gradually attains Buddhahood after actualizing the Dharma of realization is a pandita. A kusali necessarily has the same basis, but when considered alone, a pandita is closer to Buddhahood.

Now then, if it is wondered whether there is a conflict with the statement in The Ratnakuta sūtra:
Compared with someone who listens for ten eons
and then gives explanations to others,
when someone who meditates for just a moment,
the merit of the latter is greater than the former.
The intent of that: the intention is that mediation is when a scholar understands the meaning of the object of meditation, but without understanding what sort of beneficial qualities can there be? Also Vinaya states:
Don’t meditate in mountain retreats without being a master of the canon.
The Abhidharmakośa states:
Possessing basis of discipline, hearing and reflection,
is best applied in meditation.
And as the Āryācharya Nāgārjuna states:
Without relying on convention,
the ultimate will not be realized,
without realizing the ultimate,
nirvana will not be attained.
Therefore, since it is said many times “…liberation is attained in this life by listening the categories from all the sutras”, it is said that “…if one is not liberated by hearing, later on one should meditate.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: A Question on Shunyata and Awareness
Content:


Acchantika said:
Thank you, that is a very lucid explanation.

So, I am assuming that it is incorrect to apply this to all phenomena, i.e., the characteristic of clarity is unique to sentient beings?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the characteristic of clarity is unique to a sentient being's mind. The mahasiddha Virupa stated that "The mind is like space, the difference [between them] is that the mind is aware."

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Long Life Empowerment by His Holiness’ Sakya Trizin
Content:
conebeckham said:
He gave the Thangtong Gyalpo Tsewang, but more slowly and with more explanation this time.  Very wonderful.  HH is truly Vajradhara in person.  He also gave a lung, I believe if was for the daily practice of Khon Luk Kilaya.

I'm looking for the Tibetan Sadhana, which is a treasure of Choje Lingpa's (Thanks, Namdrol!) if anyone has any knowledge...??  It's not in Rinchen Terdzo.  I looked.

Malcolm wrote:
I suggest you ask HHST for the sadhana personally. I fyou get it, I will translate it for you.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: A Question on Shunyata and Awareness
Content:
Acchantika said:
A phenomenon is an object of mind. Awareness, as far as I can tell, is not an object of mind. Thus, it cannot be considered essenceless from the statement 'all phenomena are essenceless', nor the reasoning that brought me to that conclusion. I can "get rid" of fixed objects, a fixed self, and so on, but I cannot "get rid" of this awareness. The flow of dependent arising appears to something, which doesn't appear at all.

Malcolm wrote:
What you are talking about is called "clarity". The mind can take it's own awareness as an object.Indeed, in all Mahamudra and Dzogchen meditation, this is precisely what is taken as the object. You may not be able to "get rid" of this clarity, but you will never find it or be able to say "This is it, this is not it". This clarity is also dependently originated since the mind is dependently originated. There is no awareness or clarity seperate from the mind. The characteristic of the mind is clarity. The essence of the mind is emptiness. These two are non-dual, and that is the nature of the mind i.e. inseperable clarity and emptiness.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
And Gampopa......


Malcolm wrote:
Nope, his wife had died.

Marpa also had nine consorts. Naropa had consorts, Tilopa had consorts, etc. Gampopa did not receive Milarepa's complete teaching since he was a monk.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Reading strategy: study widely or deeply?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Study widely and deeply.

Dharma learning is like making a deposit in the bank for this and future lives.

Panditas attain buddhahood faster than kusulis.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss
Content:


ronnewmexico said:
If not. then what of Millarepa G

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, definitely. In fact, he had human woman consorts, but in the later Kagyu histories, only his relationship with the goddess Tseringma is mentioned.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: A Question on Shunyata and Awareness
Content:
Jnana said:
Mañjuśrī, enlightenment by its nature consists of luminous-clarity, because the mind's nature is luminously clear. Why is it so designated? The mind's nature is detached from any inner defilement and is like the nature of space, while encompassing space through its identical characteristics. For all these reasons it is designated as being luminous-clarity.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why the Chinese gloss of prabhasvara is interesting -- they generally gloss it as "pure".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: High altitude symptoms
Content:
Namdrol said:
Yes, many people do not realize this but the most important prerequisite for a successful retreat is that one is very relaxed. Also a balanced diet and lots of rest is important.

Huseng said:
Some Zen monasteries got it all wrong then.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they do. When one is quite realaxed, well rested, and with a balanced diet, one does not need as much sleep. But forcing people to subsist on lack of sleep interferes with meditative stability because it causes vata disturbances, as does poor food, and so on.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, August 1st, 2011 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Rocky Zen
Content:
Astus said:
The reasoning is quite simple. All is mind - mind is buddha - rocks and trees are buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
Piss poor reasoning.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: High altitude symptoms
Content:
Huseng said:
...provided one has sufficient isolation and quietude, which is what I don't have. ...Group retreats come with too much BS.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, many people do not realize this but the most important prerequisite for a successful retreat is that one is very relaxed. Also a balanced diet and lots of rest is important.

Groups retreats are for beginners.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: High altitude symptoms
Content:
Huseng said:
Getting to the first dhyāna would be ideal.


Malcolm wrote:
Not as hard as many people beleive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: High altitude symptoms
Content:
Namdrol said:
A preperation with cordyceps will also help with altitude. It has been shown to enhance oxegyn uptake by to 25 percent, so it is commonly used for emphysema patients, the elderly and so on in China, as well as in high altitude preperations.

There is also a special type of prepared radish that even Tibetans use for crossing passes. This, according to people I know who have used it is very effective too.

N

Huseng said:
Do you know if Ginseng would help, too? I know it works with curing fatigue and has a warming effect, but I wonder if it would work in offsetting symptoms of adjusting to high altitudes.


Malcolm wrote:
My advice is to see an Amchi sooner rather than later. Many Ladhakis speak english, so there should be little problem communicating. What sort of retreat are you doing, BTW?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: High altitude symptoms
Content:


Chaz said:
ot much you'll be able to do about low-oxygen effects (short breath, etc.) at first, but depending on your physical condition, aclimating to the altitude shouldn't take too long.

Malcolm wrote:
A preperation with cordyceps will also help with altitude. It has been shown to enhance oxegyn uptake by to 25 percent, so it is commonly used for emphysema patients, the elderly and so on in China, as well as in high altitude preperations.

There is also a special type of prepared radish that even Tibetans use for crossing passes. This, according to people I know who have used it is very effective too.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Rocky Zen
Content:


Acchantika said:
Dōgen Zenji said that rocks and trees have/are the buddha-nature. Is this a wrong view?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Rocks and trees are not sentient beings, therefore, they cannot become buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 10:15 AM
Title: Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss
Content:
Tilopa said:
But it's important to remember that even a lay yogi has the vow not to emit semen so ordinary sexual activity is a transgression for anyone with tantric vows, monastic or not. .

Malcolm wrote:
There is very little agreement on this point among different lineages, so it is best not to generalize. In other words, this is definitely not the case for Sakyapas and Nyingmapas. Emission of semen is only a downfall when one is engaging in completion stage practices. At other times it is not a downfall in any sense at all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: How does pleasure arise?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All pleasure and all pain arises as retribution for past positive and negative actions. The rest is mere detail.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Israeli women take Palestinian women to the beach. Respect!
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
This circumstance calls for a Gandhi.
Till then aparthied round the corner.


Malcolm wrote:
Around the corner? Apartheid is already a fact in Zionist-occupied Palestine.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Rocky Zen
Content:
Huseng said:
In the Treatise on Buddha Nature 佛性論 (Fo Xing Lun) buddha-nature is equated with suchness and emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Fo xing lun is mistaken, then.

Tathāgatagarbha is not merely emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Rocky Zen
Content:
Huseng said:
Buddhanature is emptiness and since all things are empty, yes a rock has Buddhanature.


Malcolm wrote:
This is not correct. Sentient beings are defined as the buddhadhātu, and rocks are not sentient. They cannot become Buddhas.

That fact that a rock is empty and a sentient being are empty does not mean a rock can also acheive awakening.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 31st, 2011 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: High altitude symptoms
Content:
Namdrol said:
Very easily. You probably won't have much trouble if you relax for a few days. I never had any trouble in Lhasa, etc.

Huseng said:
Oh good. Yeah, I've heard the same. It is just a matter of taking it easy the first few days and not doing anything physically strenuous.

If I have any health problems I'll be able to consult with Tibetan docs up there. I'll be there for about five months.

Malcolm wrote:
Like Chaz said, being well hydrated is important. Don't drink much alchohol, it goes to your head faster at altitude. Don't try to push yourself. That being said, I have climbed up 14,500 foot mountains with a 101 temperature without any ill effect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2011 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I have seen dhatu translated as "matrix" in another text (can't remember where) like "the matrix of reality", I have also seen dharmadhatu defined as the space from which all phenomena manifest, so this is the angle from where my question arises and anyway the quote says:...in the super-matrix of pure mind that is like space...
which further confused me.
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is the Tibetan term for dharmadhatu?


Malcolm wrote:
This is probably something like byang chub sems kyi klong chen i.e. "the great space of bodhicitta..." i.e. bodhicitta ala Dzogchen terminology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2011 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Tantra of the Tachikawa-Ryu
Content:
Namdrol said:
It also does not make it "tantric".

Astus said:
Depends on definition. When it has the characteristics of tantric teachings it could be called that, even if from the perspective of traditional(ist) Vajrayana they are heretics.

Malcolm wrote:
Sex and sexual mysticism does not make something "tantric".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2011 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I have seen dhatu translated as "matrix" in another text (can't remember where) like "the matrix of reality", I have also seen dharmadhatu defined as the space from which all phenomena manifest, so this is the angle from where my question arises and anyway the quote says:...in the super-matrix of pure mind that is like space...
which further confused me.
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is the Tibetan term for dharmadhatu?

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Greg:

dharmadhātu is chos dbyings or chos kyi dbyings.

In tibetan, dbyings can mean "space". But dhātu can never mean space. Dhātu, in Sanskrit, means "a mine" or "a source".

Some western translators naively translate "dbyings" as space because dbyings can have that connotation in Tibetan.

But chos kyi dbyings is never defined in Tibetan by Tibetan masters as the "space of phenomena".

It is often defined as a chos kyi 'byung gnas i.e. a source of phenomena however. One notable example of someone who gives "a source of phenomena" for dharmadhātu would be Longchenpa in the chos dyings mdzod.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2011 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: Tantra of the Tachikawa-Ryu
Content:
Astus said:
Jikan,

All the sources I've quoted above maintains that it has disappeared as a school. The practices themselves, since the texts are still available, maybe done by a few, but that doesn't make it a tradition.


Malcolm wrote:
It also does not make it "tantric".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2011 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
So basically he is talking about the dharmadhatu?


Malcolm wrote:
Dharmdhātu does not mean space, and klong does not mean dharmadhātu. One of the key features of klong sde is working with space, as opposed to light ala thögal. However, in klong sde they also take about the nine spaces i.e. the space of the view, the meditation, conduct, samaya and so on. One of our contributors, Sten Anspell, did a thesis on klong sde that is very interesting.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2011 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:


Martijn said:
How can remembrance be forgotten?  by Atmananda Krishna Menon
Every thought merges into Consciousness and remains not as thought, but as Consciousness, pure. So your searching in that Consciousness for the resurrection of any thought, merged therein, is in vain. It can only result in your first forgetting your real nature of pure Consciousness, and in the subsequent creation of an entirely new thought, as though experienced some time earlier.

[

Malcolm wrote:
This is Advaita, not Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2011 at 8:01 PM
Title: Re: High altitude symptoms
Content:
Huseng said:
Next month I'll be flying into to Leh, Ladakh, which is 3524 meters above sea-level. While I've never experienced altitude sickness before, this time it is a concern just because I am flying rather than driving into a high altitude location and will be remaining there for awhile.

In TB are there are precautions one can take? Also, is there any way of dealing with mild high altitude sickness symptoms?

Namdrol said:
A common medicine people take if they are having problems with altitude is "Dali Chudrug". It is very effective, if a bit diuretic.

N

Huseng said:
I imagine I could purchase this in Ladakh pretty easily?

Malcolm wrote:
Very easily. You probably won't have much trouble if you relax for a few days. I never had any trouble in Lhasa, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2011 at 10:27 AM
Title: Re: High altitude symptoms
Content:
Huseng said:
Next month I'll be flying into to Leh, Ladakh, which is 3524 meters above sea-level. While I've never experienced altitude sickness before, this time it is a concern just because I am flying rather than driving into a high altitude location and will be remaining there for awhile.

In TB are there are precautions one can take? Also, is there any way of dealing with mild high altitude sickness symptoms?

Malcolm wrote:
A common medicine people take if they are having problems with altitude is "Dali Chudrug". It is very effective, if a bit diuretic.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 30th, 2011 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
booker said:
Hold on a minute

Natural State unrecognised is a base for Samsara.
Natural State recognised is a base for Nirvana.

Right?

If Rigpa can be also dualistic and ilussion it would be also a base for Samsara, but it's not. Right? Marigpa is a base of Samsara, and is never a base of Nirvana. And Rigpa is never base of Samsara, is only for Nirvana. So Rigpa can not be dualistic and illusion. Margipa is.

Right?


Namdrol said:
Natural state is not rigpa. Rigpa is one's knowledge, or recognition, of the natural state.

booker said:
Yes.

So there can't be one has Rigpa which is dualistic and illusion, right? Otherwise this doesn't make any sense.

To rephrase:

Natural State unrecognised is Ma rigpa and is a base for Samsara.
Natural State recognised is Rigpa and is a base for Nirvana.

And can't be otherwise, right?

Or do I get that wrong?

Malcolm wrote:
How about: the recognition of the natural state is rigpa, the basis for nirvana -- just a slight tweak.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
booker said:
Hold on a minute

Natural State unrecognised is a base for Samsara.
Natural State recognised is a base for Nirvana.

Right?

If Rigpa can be also dualistic and ilussion it would be also a base for Samsara, but it's not. Right? Marigpa is a base of Samsara, and is never a base of Nirvana. And Rigpa is never base of Samsara, is only for Nirvana. So Rigpa can not be dualistic and illusion. Margipa is.

Right?


Malcolm wrote:
Natural state is not rigpa. Rigpa is one's knowledge, or recognition, of the natural state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
booker said:
Hm I think the problem is how is that Primordial Wisdom is obscured in the first place (what gives a rise to sentient beings like us).

Sönam said:
may by not (re) cognizing ... that's why there is innate ignorance.

Sönam

booker said:
Yes, but I guess this boils down to the fact, that since it's a self-aware wisdom, how come the ignorance could possibly happen.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there is one really good reason -- there is no such thing as a "self-aware wisdom" -- it's a translation botch.

so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye she is the translation of a common term in Mahāyāna Buddhism namely, "pratyatmyavedanajñāna" which means "personally (pratyatmya) intuited (vedana) gnosis (jñāna)" or in simpler terms "wisdom that one knows personally", wisdom that one personally experiences, and so on.

Therefore, contradiction solved.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
whatever appears is absent in reality.

Malcolm wrote:
What in tarnations is a super matrix?  Is he translating a Tibetan term here?
[/quote]

He is translating klong chen i.e. great space.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Safi: The Blood Purifier
Content:
retrofuturist said:
Greetings,

Yes, it's mainly the blood purifying properties that are of interest.

I've got one bottle of this, and I don't see that one bottle alone causing problems, but will seek out alternatives for next time around.

Thank you.

Maitri,
Retro.


Malcolm wrote:
Retro:

If you want to purify your blood, than you should take a decotion of Amla/Amalki fruit. You do not need this Safi stuff.

B


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 6:21 AM
Title: Renunciation Impossible?
Content:
Huseng said:
The need to earn an income is tied to having to rent or upkeep a private residence, maybe drive a car, eat whatever you want rather than living on donated foods, etc... whereas a renunciate by definition is supposed to be free of such concerns.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but in this day and age the path of renunciation is impossible.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: recalling ...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Canto Twenty-Four

Amazing!
Now then, sole fortunate dear children,
listen to this vajra song with joy and enthusiasm!
If realized in that way, the whole of existence
is the ultimate mandala of a book of advice
in which baseless, forever liberated non-grasping words
are written on the pages of various white and red appearances
with the pen of vidyā’s self-originated primordial wisdom.

Having read the book in the state of non-dual appearance and emptiness,
the naturally formed maṇḍala of the billion world cosmos
is wetted with the water of a natural downpour of heavy rain,
the lane is marked with the natural great lines,
and one’s footprints are images of colored sand.
One’s body is the form of the yidam deity of appearance and emptiness,
the empty sounds of speech is vajra recitation
and the self-liberated mind of the deity does not grasp memories or thoughts.
All motions of the limbs are mudras.
All food and drink is an offering of dharmatā.
All apparent forms are the form of the deity.
All loud noises and speech are music.
Naturally occurring samaya is not protected and cannot be harmed.
No matter what such yogins do,
since their instructions and creation stage along with
commitments are perfect in the state of luminous dharmatā, [145]
there is no need to depend on dharmas of effort.
Effortless siddhi is very amazing.
Rapid attainment is a special feature
of the great perfection, fortunate heart children.

As such, if one practices with confidence,
just like clouds disappear into space,
the mass of concepts of samsara and nirvana will be purified in the original ground.
Just like the disc of the sun is clear without any obscuration,
after one’s vidyā manifests the luminous dharmakāya,
one will be able to revive the dead and be able to understand what is hidden.
Having demonstrated various miraculous abilities,
one will tame migrating beings.
Having totally perfected all the qualities of the stages and paths,
the persons of the best capacity are liberated in this lifetime
and the medium are liberated in the bardo at the moment of death.
Having been liberated in the originally pure basis, after permanently dwelling
as the three kāyas and primordial wisdoms (that are never joined with one another or separated) in the dharmadhātu,
also send forth emanations to tame whoever is to be tamed,
performing the benefit of migrating beings without interruption.

Bearing these words and topics in mind,
it is certain the sun of happiness will arise from inside.
That one who sings a song of such realization,
appears to be the renunciate, Tsogdrug Rangdrol.
By this merit, may all the stains of the conceptual affliction
of ignorance of many fortunate disciples
be quickly purified into the originally pure original dharmadhātu
and the result be attained in this life.


(This is my independent rendition that was made without depending on a prior translation; unlike Dowman, which depends on Kunsang)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: A little help?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
ok, well i guess I will just have to wait till I can get the DVD, thanks anyways


Malcolm wrote:
You don't absolutely need the melodies, you can just recite the text plainly until you can get a chance to learn the melodies.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy
Content:
Huseng said:
Democracy is a sacred cow and anything done in its name seems to sanitize away any and all immoral actions.

For example the democratic nation of the USA has been invading, murdering and pillaging numerous nations in both hemispheres since at least the post-War period, but this is done in the name of "protecting freedom and spreading democracy". It is no different than converting people by the sword to Christianity and making a handsome profit at the same time. Likewise communist states were insistent on class struggle and spreading "the revolution", and looked what happened as a result in places like the USSR and China.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and both of these instances are a result of capitalism...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
Few inidans were ever kept as slaves by the americans, which may speak a bit to their status in things.


Malcolm wrote:
Not true, many Indians were sold into slavery.

As far as slavery among North American Indians

"Many Native American tribes did practice some form of slavery before the European introduction of African slavery into North America; but none exploited slave labor on a large scale.[1]
Native American groups frequently enslaved war captives whom they primarily used for small-scale labor.[1] Some, however, were used in ritual sacrifice.[1] Although not much is known about them, there is little evidence that these slaves were considered racially inferior to the Native Americans who held power over them.[1] Nor did Native Americans buy and sell captives in the pre-colonial era, although they sometimes exchanged enslaved individuals with other tribes in peace gestures or in exchange for their own members.[1] In fact, the word "slave" may not even accurately apply to these captive people.[1] Most of these so-called Native American slaves tended to live on the fringes of Native American society and were slowly integrated into the tribe.[1]
Until European settlers arrived, these slaves were other tribesmen.[1] The situation of these enslaved Native Americans varied among the tribes. In many cases, enslaved captives were adopted into the new tribes to replace warriors killed during a raid.[1] Enslaved warriors sometimes endured mutilation or torture that could end in death as part of a grief ritual for relatives slain in battle.[1] Some Native Americans would cut off one foot of their captives to keep them from running away. Others allowed enslaved captives to marry the widows of slain husbands.[1] The Creek, who engaged in this practice, treated children born of slaves and tribal members as full members of the tribe rather than as enslaved offspring.[1] Several tribes held captives as hostages for payment.[1] Various tribes also practiced debt slavery or imposed slavery on tribal members who had committed crimes; full tribal status would be restored as the enslaved worked off their obligations to the tribal society.[1] Other such slave-owning tribes of North America included Comanche of Texas, Creek of Georgia, the fishing societies, such as the Yurok, that lived along the coast from what is now Alaska to California, the Pawnee, and Klamath.[2]
When the Europeans “discovered” the Native Americans they began to participate in the slave trade.[3] Native Americans, in their initial encounters with the Europeans, attempted to use their captives from other tribes as a “method of playing one tribe against another” in an unsuccessful game of divide and conquer.[3]
The Haida and Tlingit who lived along southeast Alaska's coast were traditionally known as fierce warriors and slave-traders, raiding as far as California.[4][5] In their society, slavery was hereditary after slaves were taken as prisoners of war.[4][5] Among some Pacific Northwest tribes, as many as one-fourth of the population were slaves.[4][5]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_among_Native_Americans_in_the_United_States " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy
Content:
LastLegend said:
Ron,

Slavery was big part of history of United States. Can you shed some lights on its effects in present days in terms of race relations in United States.

I have been told that most whites don't see non-whites as equals. Can you discuss or shed some lights on this?


Malcolm wrote:
Equality in the US, as in every other nation comes from $$$.

People with more money are more equal than others.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I will also take a stab in the dark and guess that white Americans did not learn about democracy from the American Indians.

Namdrol said:
We didn't learn about from Greeks either (especially since Greek preferred Tyranny to Democracy anyway).

N

gregkavarnos said:
Preferred?  And here was me thinking that Tyranny is normally imposed.

Malcolm wrote:
"Greek tyranny in the main grew out of the struggle of the popular classes against the aristocracy or against priest-kings where archaic traditions and mythology sanctioned hereditary and/or traditional rights to rule. Popular coups generally installed tyrants, who often became or remained popular rulers, at least in the early part of their reigns. For instance, the popular imagination remembered Peisistratus for an episode - related by (pseudonymous) Aristotle, but possibly fictional - in which he exempted a farmer from taxation because of the particular barrenness of his plot."

More or less an archaic version of dictatorship of the prols.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 29th, 2011 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I will also take a stab in the dark and guess that white Americans did not learn about democracy from the American Indians.

Malcolm wrote:
We didn't learn about from Greeks either (especially since Greek preferred Tyranny to Democracy anyway).

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2011 at 10:12 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra : What do you plan to do after ngondro?
Content:


Jangchup Donden said:
Was Rechungpa a non-monastic?

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2011 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Purification Practices in Sutra, Tantra & Dzogchen
Content:
Sönam said:
There is no purification  practices in Dzogchen ... purifications practices belong to other yanas.

Sönam


Namdrol said:
Of course there are purification practices in Dzogchen, very many in fact. Vajrasattva, etc.

Sönam said:
Vajrasattva and others does not "belong" to Dzogchen, also Dzogchenpa can practice it ... the only "purification" I can imagine is reactualisation. We are back to Garab Dorje's Three Precepts.

... or ?

Sönam

Malcolm wrote:
Or all the purification practices recommended in the Dzogchen man ngag sde tantras such as Vajrasattva practice, prostrations, mandala, Guru Yoga, etc., you name it., they are all there.

Norbu Rinpoche said it best "There is no such thing as pure Dzogchen".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2011 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra : What do you plan to do after ngondro?
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
Relatedly

N..which version of Millarepa do you know or suppose as true..as sourcerer or not.

I'd guess not but am no scholor.


Malcolm wrote:
Read Peter Allen Roberts' book on the bios of Rechungpa.

The standard bio of Milarepa by Tsang Nyon Heruka, is quite late and stands a number of facts on their head when it is compared to bios composed by Gampopa, and so on (for example, Milarepa's mother is never mentioned, his father was alive, there was no evil Aunt and Uncle, etc. ).

Basically, Roberts tracks all of the hagiographies of Mila in an effort to find out why Mila's main student, Rechungpa, and only complete lineage holder, was turned into an example of the "bad student" par excellence by generations of Kagyu monastics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2011 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra : What do you plan to do after ngondro?
Content:


Chaz said:
I'm strangely reminded of Milarepa building towers ...........

Malcolm wrote:
Except that never happened.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 28th, 2011 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Vimalamitra's semde pills
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
I had the same experience with them for the first 2 or 3 days, but later it leveled out and I began to feel much better than before beginning the treatment. Did you continue taking the pills until they were gone and still have that effect until the very end?

Hayagriva said:
I took them for a week and then stopped. They were certainly far more powerful than I was expecting, but I really didn't like the effect - especially as it was making meditation very difficult.

Malcolm wrote:
Cut the dose in half.

They are mainly aloeswood, with other ingrediants.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: and again ... Jesus is a bodhisattva
Content:
arjandirkse said:
Isn't the presumption that some real person is a "real" Bodhisattva overly high praise?

Bodhisattvas are supposed to be fully enlightened beings, am I correct? So how is anyone to know wether Jesus or Moses or Gandhi or whomever is a Bodhisattva?


Malcolm wrote:
No, partially awakened, not fully awakend (buddha)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Purification Practices in Sutra, Tantra & Dzogchen
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
I'm taught the three outer/lower tantras are the path of purification.

Rinpoche has referred to the "ten absences" of the Kunche Gyälpo as the equivalent of Dzogchen samaya, one of which is "there are no bhumis one has to achieve through purification."

Having said that vajra dance appears to be a six lokas practice.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN teaches purification practices like the Longsal Ngondro.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Purification Practices in Sutra, Tantra & Dzogchen
Content:
Sönam said:
There is no purification  practices in Dzogchen ... purifications practices belong to other yanas.

Sönam


Malcolm wrote:
Of course there are purification practices in Dzogchen, very many in fact. Vajrasattva, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: Norway attack.
Content:



tobes said:
Indeed. I am aware of the hermeneutical license we are all granted in these post-modern times, but.......

Failing to recognise that JS Mill is defending individual liberty from possible external harms would be incorrect.

Or failing to recongise that Nagarjuna is denying independent existence would be incorrect.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, actually there are many people who think that Nagarjuna's line [paraphrase] "a svabhāva is independent and does not depend on anything" serves to define what is real as opposed to what is contigent. I have heard Lama's of gshan stong persuasion give exactly that interpretation. And this is pre-modern...

And the lunatic in Norway obviously was deluded enough to think that he was protecting individual liberty...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
What about our inner Guru?

Malcolm wrote:
That the path, received from outer guru.

kalden yungdrung said:
What about Dzogchen practice in previous lives ?

Malcolm wrote:
Means that in this life it will be easier for you to meet an authentic Dzogchen guru.


kalden yungdrung said:
What about a high level of understanding and very good karma?

Malcolm wrote:
Without transmission, no Dzogchen.


N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
thigle said:
Right, you can only learn dzogchen from a book or text.

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot learn Dzogchen from a book, nevertheless, there are texts that are authoritative for Dzogchen. But to learn Dzogchne, you need a master.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: Safi: The Blood Purifier
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It would be fine, but without more info, it is hard to say.The arsenic seems like environmental contamination.

retrofuturist said:
Greetings,

Does anyone have any thoughts on the efficacy (or dangers) of this product from either an Ayurvedic or Tibetan Medicine perspective?

Safi: the blood purifier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safi _(medicine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

As far as I can tell from online sources, it seems there is benefit in the tonic, but a risk that it contains potentially high arsenic levels.

Ideally I'm after balanced and well considered views in this topic, rather than just a Eastern vs Western medicine slinging match. At what levels does arsenic become a genuine concern?

Here's the contents....




Thanks.

Maitri,
Retro.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 9:39 AM
Title: Re: Norway attack.
Content:


tobes said:
Or will you ever grant that it is not the text, but the misreading of it.....


Malcolm wrote:
That would suggest that is such a thing as a "correct" reading of any text.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think
Content:
kirtu said:
the DC area which is now clearly just sprawl.

Kirt

Malcolm wrote:
That is for sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
thigle said:
Last but not least, the only authentic dzogchen-mengagde book, you become public, is https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Drops-Dharmakaya-Dzogchen-Tradition/dp/1559391723. I don't wanna go from here, without these pointer.


Malcolm wrote:
You cannot learn Dzogchen from a book.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:


thigle said:
So, what is the big secret in Dzogchen?

Namdrol said:
In other words, no Dzogchen Guru, no Dzogchen practice.

thigle said:
Don't tell the people lies, my friend.

Malcolm wrote:
It is in the original texts of Dzogchen, so what to say. A guru is indispensable for Dzogchen. If one should proclaim otherwise, one would be telling lies.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:


thigle said:
So, what is the big secret in Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
If someone wishes to practice Dzogchen, they must find a guru who teaches it correctly. Otherwise, "Dzogchen" is just a bunch meaningless albeit pretty words. In other words, no Dzogchen Guru, no Dzogchen practice.

Your grudge against Tibetans is unjustified. Tibetan Gurus have taught everything there is to teach about Dzoghen to those who have been fortunate enough and interested enough to seek out and learn Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 27th, 2011 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Thanks to everybody
Content:
Namdrol said:
Spirit of the moment, too bad mods didn't see it that way.

PadmaVonSamba said:
It was an absolutely zen moment
a whack with a stick
and impermanent!


Malcolm wrote:
It was fun while it lasted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2011 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Thanks to everybody
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
(p. off was nice too!)


Malcolm wrote:
Spirit of the moment, too bads mods didn't see it that way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2011 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Norway attack.
Content:
tobes said:
Well, we've already had a long thread in which some people expressed alarm at the proliferation of anti-Islamic sentiment in Europe, and others justified it as well founded.

I don't wish to start another long, tiring debate; but I think it is worth remembering all that was said on that thread.

As one of the people expressing alarm, well, unfortunately there is now compelling evidence why such a stance is warranted.

As an aside, it is interesting how a Christian doing an unspeakable deed is characterised as "a lone psychotic gunman" (not a Christian terrorist) and no one is blaming the entire religion of Christianity for his action.

Malcolm wrote:
That's not true, Huffpo has it here:

"Anders Behring Breivik is a Christian terrorist determined to touch off a new Christian-Muslim war that would rival medieval Crusades."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-crumm/christian-terrorist-ramadan_b_908172.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And there are certainly precedents even in the New Testament for such actions:

Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. [Mt 10.34 NRSV]

For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.  [Mt. 10.35-39]

Now granted, there is a preponderance of evidence that Jesus would not have approved of the various wars and so on fought in his name. However, militant Christians usually look to the Old Testament for justifications for their wars, as you must know.

Now, it is ironic that man trying to start a race war in Europe chose to murder Socialists, rather than Muslims.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2011 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: and again ... Jesus is a bodhisattva
Content:


spanda said:
A Christian View of Liberation
Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 – 1464):
“Finally, there is still a path of seeking God within yourself: the path of the removal of limits…When…you conceive that God is better than can be conceived, you reject everything that is limited and contracted…“if you seek further, you find nothing in yourself like God, but rather you affirm that God is above all these as the cause, beginning, and light of life of your intellective soul…You will rejoice to have found God beyond all your interiority as the source of the good, from which everything that you have flows out to you.”


A Buddhist View of Liberation
Buddha:
“Shariputra, this very Dharmakaya is called the realm of beings when it is concealed by a sheath of boundless afflictions, wandering repeatedly through births and deaths in beginningless samsara, buffeted by the waves of samsara… Shariputra, this very Dharmakaya is called the Tathagata, Arhat, Samyak-sambuddha when it has become free from the veils of all the afflictions, has passed beyond all sufferings…”

Malcolm wrote:
The first is completely externalist. The later is pointing to one's inner reality of buddhanature as dharmakāya.






spanda said:
Christian Renunciation
St. Symeon (11th century):
First of all seek three things: (1) to free yourself of all anxiety regarding both real and imaginary things, (2) to strive for a pure conscience, with no lingering sense of self-reproach, and (3) to be completely detached, so that your thoughts are not drawn to anything worldly, not even to your own body.


Buddhist Renunciation
Buddha:
“Do not engage in any vices whatsoever. Devote yourself to a bounty of virtue. Completely subdue your own mind. This is the teaching of the Buddha.”

Malcolm wrote:
Renunication is not unique to Buddhism, nor is disciple, nor is loving kindness and compassion. Nor is shamatha.

Buddhist insight is unique and comes from understanding dependent origination alone.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2011 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: and again ... Jesus is a bodhisattva
Content:
justsit said:
Well, just to play devil's advocate here...

There are those who say he rose from the dead.

Malcolm wrote:
There are many people who rose from the dead after staying in crupts for three days -- common mystery cult iniation rite.

justsit said:
He did perform miracles.

Malcolm wrote:
So did Appollonius of Tyana and many other people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2011 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think
Content:
mr. gordo said:
I take it his books are good as well?  They've been sitting in my amazon wishlist for a while.


Malcolm wrote:
I think so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2011 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
20 feet under water NYC for instance,

Malcolm wrote:
that's ok, new york city is a cesspool anyway.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 26th, 2011 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Fukushima: It's much worse than you think
Content:


Huseng said:
Nobody is willing to sacrifice. That's the problem. We hear about "sustainable development". Japan needs to reduce energy consumption if it is going to drop nuclear energy, but those millions of vending machines keep rolling and neon lights continue to blaze.


Malcolm wrote:
What's going to happen is that we will run out of petrofuels. It will happen. But it will not be chaotic, and catastrophic. Industrial civilization will basically lurch to a halt. Read this guy, he is very bright and writes very well.

https://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2011 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
So what you are saying is that an unenlightened being (ie me) can have a direct (not mediated by concpetualising mind) perception via this "pramana"?

Namdrol said:
Yes.

"Experience", by which we mean experiences of which we are aware, is always conceptual. Direct perceptions are, by definition, non-conceptual. Thus, direct perceptions are never conceptually meditated even though we constantly have them.

N

conebeckham said:
So "non-mediated perceptions" can, and do, occur to all, but the moment one "experiences" the perception this is no longer non-mediated?

Malcolm wrote:
When one becomes aware that one is seeing a blue vase for example, and desginates it a blue vase, at that moment one is no longer having a direct perception but a perception mediated by ideation and a number of other mental factors.

An important part of shamatha practice is allowing our mental factors to become reduced to the minumum that are present in any desire realm mind -- then we can enter the the first dhyana, i.e. perfect shamatha which involve five factors associated with the first dhyana; one pointedness, bliss, ease, intitial attention and sustained attention.

Perfect shamatha is basically a one pointed mind that is "non-conceptual" or rather minimally conceptual. One of the key features of Vajrayāna practice of course is that bliss can be so overwhelming that it makes our minds completely non-conceptual, likewise, the experience of khumbhaka, etc. This is one of the resasons why the Sakya gongma maintain that Mahāmudra upadeshas all by themselves are a slow path, but when combined with the completion stage, they become a rapid path.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2011 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: and again ... Jesus is a bodhisattva
Content:
Sönam said:
so what ?

A 8th bhumi bodhisattva could miss the fact that his words and actions will bring so much suffering ... holy wars, Inquisition and even holocaust having his origin in the fact that jews would have killed God (the son)?
Jesus have the compassion dimension, but where is the wisdom dimension?

Malcolm wrote:
We are not in disagreement. I personally think "Jesus as bodhisattva" is nonsense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2011 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: and again ... Jesus is a bodhisattva
Content:
Sönam said:
Dealing with a french forum, I once more encounter the discussion on Jésus being a bodhisattva. Some "stable" vajra friends, some I know personnaly, pretend that His Holiness has once (Paris 2003) said that Jesus was a bodhisattva, which is for me a total nonsense. Then other members (vajra practionners) generally quite knowledgeable concerning the dharma did pretend the same, pretending that he did adapt his teaching to the peoples in Palestin in that time. Of course I did'nt agree at all, and as too many of them did pretend so, I tell them that I will ask for confirmation to a Rinpoche (Gelug) I'm in contact with. Surprisingly he says the same, that he believes that Jesus was a 8th bhumi bodhisattva, that his "real" teaching was not know, and so on.
Honestly I do not know what to say ... I need some help on that point that I could not accept. I'm lost (like a wall following on me) ?

Sönam (sorry for bad english)


Malcolm wrote:
It is just political stuff to make christians happy where it is not new age nonsense.

however, it is possible for a bodhisattva to appear in any form....so


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2011 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Enochian said:
So basically pramana = Gorampa's Ultimate Truth = rigpa for you Dzogchenpas out there

This is a question not a statement


Malcolm wrote:
Not exactly. A pramāṇa requires a prameya, an object of authority. Since the objet of realization of Madhyamaka and Dzogchen cannot be established as an object of authority, no authority for a Madhyamaka or Dzogchen pramāṇa can be established.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2011 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
In the Yogacara eightfold classification of mind which "level" is pramanas comparable too?


Malcolm wrote:
The question should be "Which of yogacara eight consciousness are direct perceptions comparable to?" The answer is that the six sense consciousnesses are all non-conceptual direct perceptions.

In terms of the five aggregates, teh aggregates of consciousness is a direct perception operating through a sense gate.

Our experience of these direct perceptions are mediated by mental factor of ideation/discernment after they have been sensed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 25th, 2011 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Norway attack.
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
N...groups and organizations customarily claim certain newsworthy events. News media can discern who is and who is claiming...this is routine.
To announce a group claims this or that when they claim every tragic event happening anywhere is a deriliction of duty to report the news.
Al Queda is a terrrorist group.That means they inspire terrorism in the populace, not necessarily to produce certain acts.
The acts are means to a end.... the terror. Reporting in this manner puts a alqueda operative behind every event and thusly works to support their aim...it is irresponsible to say the least, bad journalism without a doubt.

Malcolm wrote:
I merley pointed out that they did indeed claim responsilbility. Perhaps Al Qaeda really thought it was one of their's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Norway attack.
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
Initial media knee jerk reaction was to suspect Alqueda....

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, an Al Qaueda affliate announced it was their work early on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
So what you are saying is that an unenlightened being (ie me) can have a direct (not mediated by concpetualising mind) perception via this "pramana"?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


gregkavarnos said:
Do we have an abhidharmic reference for this term or state of mind "pramana"?

Malcolm wrote:
Pramāṇa is the study of epistemology in Buddhism and Hinduism. The earliest Buddhist text on pramāṇa was written by Vasubandhu, the Vyākhyāyukti. This was followed by the works of Dignaga and Dharmakirti. It is traditionally grouped by most Tibetan scholars under Sautrantika tenets, so called "Sautrantikas following reason".

gregkavarnos said:
Why do I not always experience perception at this level?


Malcolm wrote:
"Experience", by which we mean experiences of which we are aware, is always conceptual. Direct perceptions are, by definition, non-conceptual. Thus, direct perceptions are never conceptually meditated even though we constantly have them.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
mudra said:
Pramana is referred to in various texts as prime  awareness/cognition etc.

Namdrol said:
Pramana means, basically, "authoritative".

N

mudra said:
Agreed. It is a term used in "Hinduism" as well (remembering the topic of this thread.)

I looked up several Sanskrit dictionaries and they all seemed to say that "mana" is mind. Pra can refer to primary or prime.
So rather than going into that tenet debate on whether it means first or prime in the sense of incontrovertible I think your term authoritative works quite well.

Malcolm wrote:
That is māna; the māṇa in pramāṇa is a completley different word.



pramANa	n. (ifc. f. %{A}) measure , scale , standard ; measure of any kind (as size , extent , circumference , length , distance , weight , multitude , quantity , duration) Ka1tyS3r. Kat2hUp. Mn. &c. (instr. `" on an average "' Jyot.) ; prosodical length (of a vowel) Pa1n2. 1-1 , 50 Sch. ; measure in music MBh. (Ni1lak.) ; accordance of the movements in dancing with music and song Sam2gi1t. ; measure of physical strength S3ak. (cf. comp. below) ; the first term in a rule of three sum Col. ; the measure of a square i.e. a side of it S3ulbas. ; principal , capital (opp. to interest) Col. ; right measure , standard , authority Gr2S3rS. Mn. MBh. &c. (%{pramANam@bhavatI} , `" your ladyship is the authority or must judge "' Nal. ; in this sense also m. and f. sg. and pl. e.g. %{vedAH@pramANAH} , `" the Vedas are authorities "' MBh. ; %{strI@pramANI@yeSAm} , `" they whose authority is a woman Pa1n2. Sch.) ; a means of acquiring Prama1 or certain knowledge (6 in the Veda7nta , viz. %{pratyakSa} , perception by the senses ; %{anumAna} , inference ; %{upamAna} , analogy or comparison ; %{zabda} or %{Apta-vacana} , verbal authority , revelation ; %{an-upalabdhi} or %{abhAva-pratyakSa} , non-perception or negative proof ; %{arthA7patti} , inference from circumstances ; the Nya1ya admits only 4 , excluding the last two ; the Sa1m2khya only 3 , viz. %{pratyakSa} , %{anumAna} and %{zabda} ; other schools increase the number to 9 by adding %{sambhava} , equivalence ; %{aitihya} , tradition or fallible testimony ; and %{ceSTA} , gesture IW. 60 &c. &c.) ; any proof or testimony or evidence Ya1jn5. MBh. Ka1v. &c. ; a correct notion , right perception (= %{pramA}) Tarkas. ; oneness , unity L. ; = %{nitya} L. ; m. (cf. n.) N. of a large fig-tree on the bank of the Ganges MBh. ; (%{I}) f. (cf. n.) N. of a metre Col.


N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
thigle said:
Not necessary, to be elitist and to spread fear.


Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of being elitist or spreading fear. It is a question of respecting the teachings so that people actually benefit from them rather than run around with the view in the their mouth and mind full of afflictions.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:


thigle said:
Anyway, i spent many years under hard conditions, to come to the point, that dzogchen is easy. And that was not so easy (for a practitioner, who want to 'practice' [not easy]: 'let-it-be-as-it-is'. [easy]) and very subtle, because it is also very very easy, to fall in a cittamatra view or stuff. So, i know, what you mean.

Malcolm wrote:
You see, Dzogchen is not so easy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 10:45 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
mudra said:
Pramana is referred to in various texts as prime  awareness/cognition etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Pramana means, basically, "authoritative".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 10:29 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Namdrol,
thank you. Unlike others that I have seen on this forum I know you are not saying these things to be a dickhead. Help me out here. If I am missing something or not understanding something please dont just point out that I am clueless, tell me how and why I am clueless and how I can correct it and get the proper understanding. If you prefer to do that in private PM me, if not tell me in the open forum.

Malcolm wrote:
It is easy to get the scent of Dzogchen. But in reality, understanding Dzogchen is much harder. The biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen is thinking that we understand it. I do not mean it is impossible to understand Dzogchen, of course it is possible, but that understanding can really only be predicated on personal experience, and it is the extremely rare person who can understand Dzogchen based on a few teaching and a couple of months of practice. Most of us need to spend ten or twenty years.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 8:23 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
Fa Dao said:
So far as a newbie I have found Dzogchen to be quite simple and direct. Garab Dorje and ChNN lay it all out very nicely. Definitely NOT easy though. Does require a certain amount of relaxed persistence. Still occasionally have that pesky feeling that I should be DOING something if I want to progress...but supposedly that will dissolve into itself eventually too.


Malcolm wrote:
You are like a person who has smelled some wood that has been lying on the ground in a sandal wood forest, but does not realize it is just common wood. When the scent wears off you will realize you still need to get real sandalwood.

And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 8:17 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:


thigle said:
If dzogchen is simple, why we have so many dickheads?

Malcolm wrote:
Because even though Dzogchen is simple, it is extremely subtle.

For example, you have to let go of letting go. You have to stop fabricating your non-fabrication.

You have stop affecting your non-affectation.

I know many, many so called Dzogchen practitioners in DC and elsewhere, both teachers and students. All of them are still, to some degree or another, under the influence of their emotions, their physical bodies, their karma and their circumstances.

So the problem is not with the teachings, the teachings are perfect. The problem is with the practitioners. And the problem is in general that Dzogchen is far more subtle than students understand. The teachers know this, which is why they continue to encourage people not to think that Dzogchen is something so easy. Even a teaching like dependent origination is very subtle. How much more so is Dzogchen, which is where the teaching of dependent origination leads one in the end.

So, Dzogchen words are simple, but their meaning is extremely subtle, and the practice of Dzogchen is not so easy. If you tell people otherwise, you are acting like a Mara.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?
Content:
platypus said:
There are a few immortal animals.

Malcolm wrote:
Only jellyfish. And no one is sure they are even sentient.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
thigle said:
It is unaffected. And that's so hard for us. But when you think, it is complicated, let it be complicated, as practice

Malcolm wrote:
I did not say that Dzogchen was complicated. Dzogchen is "simple". But it is not easy. Most of the people who study Dzogchen have no fracking clue what Dzogchen actually is...especially those who claim it is easy.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?
Content:
Enochian said:
I didn't phrase this thread right.

I should have asked is there any way to expand youthful lifespan to say about 400 years?

Huseng said:
Well according to the Abhidharma-kosa if you can master the fourth dhyana and covert bhoga-vipaka to ayurvipaka, then you can live an extended lifespan.


Enochian said:
By that logic, kumbhaka should work too, since kumbhaka>>>dhyana.


Malcolm wrote:
Nope, works an a different theory -- arrest the karmic vāyus, one interrupts the process of karma, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
thigle said:
Dzogchen is easy.

Namdrol said:
If Dzogchen were easy, there would not be so many dickheads.

thigle said:
Yes..for dickheads, easiness seems too complicated. But we have ngöndro, so, no problem.


Malcolm wrote:
I don't know, when someone like Chogyal Namkhai Norbu says Dzogchen is "...not so easy", I tend to believe him.

Dzogchen is easy to say, but the real test is whether one's afflictions have decreased. If not, then one's "Dzogchen" is not working to well.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
thigle said:
Dzogchen is easy.

Malcolm wrote:
If Dzogchen were easy, there would not be so many dickheads.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?
Content:
Enochian said:
What about Nagarjuna's alchemy?

Malcolm wrote:
You met any immortals?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 24th, 2011 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Physical Immortality Possible Through Dependent Origination?
Content:
Enochian said:
Is Physical Immortality possible through Dependent Origination (buddhism)?

Any ancient accounts?

Not talking about rainbow body or other serious accomplishments.


Malcolm wrote:
Nope. All that is born must die.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


mudra said:
The term pramana (prime/first mind) also refers to this direct perception free of conceptual filters.

Malcolm wrote:
"mana" means to measure, hence in Tibetan "tshad".

Pratyaḳsa (mngon sum) is the word for direct perception.

Inferenece (anumana), which is not a direct perception is also a pramana.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 4:46 AM
Title: new terma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://romokon.blogspot.com/2009/03/new-buddhas.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Aren't sense cognitions ultimately thought forms since (sensory) sensations pass through their respective sense-mind before we can cognise the sensory cognition? (to put it extraordinarily clumsily)

Namdrol said:
Not in the sense that Enochian is using the word i.e. as designations.

A designation requires a concept, where as a naked sense perception is, by definition, non-conceptual.

gregkavarnos said:
Okay, now I understand.  Can perception ever be non-conceptual to an unenlightened being?


Malcolm wrote:
All direct perceptions are non-conceptual whether one is awakened or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: Question about dharmaprotectress Achi Chokyi Drolma
Content:


adinatha said:
Achi is also practice as a deity, peaceful form of Vajrayogini.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, if you have received that transmission. But more commonly it is given as a dharmapala.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Aren't sense cognitions ultimately thought forms since (sensory) sensations pass through their respective sense-mind before we can cognise the sensory cognition? (to put it extraordinarily clumsily)

Malcolm wrote:
Not in the sense that Enochian is using the word i.e. as designations.

A designation requires a concept, where as a naked sense perception is, by definition, non-conceptual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Enochian said:
Doesn't appearance = thoughtform?

Malcolm wrote:
No, an appearance is a sense cognition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Enochian said:
I can state the principles of of Gorampa's Madhyamaka without getting into negation.

a. Everything exists as thoughtforms merely designated upon causes and conditions.

Malcolm wrote:
Wrong. Gorampa rejects this point. Designations are made on the basis of appearances.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?
Content:



Namdrol said:
They have all kinds of practice text listed on that page that seem not to require empowerments, but in fact most of them do.

N

Starglade said:
This is what I mean when I say "there seem to be contradictions." The FPMT site (which is all I have had to work with, until discovering Deer Park--and which I trusted, given its--lineage, for lack of a better word) indicates one thing, answers from practitioners here seem to indicate another. That, to me, is a contradiction--or, as Chaz said, at the very least a misunderstanding.

I have emailed Deer Park again with a request for specific answers about formal refuge-taking and prerequisite empowerment, and am waiting for further responses/clarifications. Thank you all, yet again. I appreciate your patience.

K

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, usually when you take a dharmapala inititation, you have comittments to make offerings on a daily or monthly basis.

Also, generally, as we mentioned, one usually needs to have received a highest yoga tantra empowerment.

But, these things are also at the discretion of the teacher.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?
Content:
Starglade said:
I also went to the FPMT website, where I found a copy of a daily Palden Lhamo practice in e-book format, listed under the heading "Not requiring empowerment" and available, therefore, to the general interested public.

There seem to be some major contradictions here. I will continue inquiring at Deer Park for specifics to make sure of things before I make that drive. Thank you all, again.


Malcolm wrote:
They have all kinds of practice text listed on that page that seem not to require empowerments, but in fact most of them do.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 23rd, 2011 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Question about dharmaprotectress Achi Chokyi Drolma
Content:
mad 3gem jewel said:
I am so surprised she has so little fame

Namdrol said:
Achi is very Drigung specific. If you are not a dyed in the wool Drigiungpa, there is little need to practice Achi.

N

adinatha said:
If you are not a dyed in the wool buddhist, there's little need to practice dharma. If you are not a dyed in the wool dzogchenpa, there's little need to practice dzogchen. If someone feels a connection to a practice, there's little need to discourage it.


Malcolm wrote:
It's a littel more sensative with dharmapalas.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Shiiiiit....!  It took me three years of busting my lamas chops before he gave the lung for our dhrmapala practice!  Just the lung!


Malcolm wrote:
That's all you really need for most dharmapala practices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Question about dharmaprotectress Achi Chokyi Drolma
Content:
mad 3gem jewel said:
I am so surprised she has so little fame

Malcolm wrote:
Achi is very Drigung specific. If you are not a dyed in the wool Drigiungpa, there is little need to practice Achi.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
If we insist on using a term with a person that we know is hurtful to that person then we've determined there is some truth we need to convey which is higher than loving-kindness, and there isn't.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a truth higher than loving kindness (since loving kindness will not bring anyone to liberation). The issue is skillful means.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Permission to practice: prerequisites?
Content:
Starglade said:
Thank you both for responding.

I actually just received a reply from a member of the staff, who indicates that I can indeed take the permission to practice. "Deer Park activities are not limited to students" and if there were prerequisites, they would be mentioned in the info (which there were none called out).

Saturday could prove very interesting for me indeed.


Malcolm wrote:
It is strange to attend a permission for a Dharmapala if you have not first received a major intitation into a deity practice like Kalacakra, Yamantaka, etc. Generally, speaking, you would not normally be allowed to attend such a permission without such an empowerment as a prerequisite. You might want to inquire again.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
mudra said:
Namdrol-lags,

Actually I did already before I posted that last post.

(Sorry not to answer sooner, I fell asleep as it was 2 am my time)

What I found on p60-61, was not Je Tsongkhapa disregarding the second set of extremes, but instead saying that they need to be interpreted with (implied) qualifiers, and not literally.  The emphasis is on knowing when and where to apply the "inherently existent" clause in order to avoid a contradiction.

BTW found online "Freedom From Extremes" by Jose I Cabezon and Geshe Lobsang Dargey. Any opinions on this book?

Malcolm wrote:
There are a couple of errors in translation in that book, for example, for some strange reason Cabezon thinks that Gorampa is siding with Rendawa's rather extreme refutation of gzhan stong, when actually Gorampa supports Rongton's softer refutation of gzhan stong. Otherwise, it is pretty good.

Re: tetralemma -- this is the basis of the disagreement, whether to take the tetralemma literally. Gorampa takes Tsongkhapa to task for trying to reinterpet the tetralemma. It must be taken literally, for among other reasons, [one not mentioned in the book], there are those who assert things both exist and do not exist, for example Jain and other interpretation of arising where there is an instant where something is in simultaneous state of existent and non-existence. In other words, the tetralemma is to be taken literally.

The book is ok, but really needs to redone by  Sakyapa.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Namdrol said:
Napper's book Dependent Arising has a whole section devling into this issue. Look there.

N

mudra said:
Ok so checked the index in Napper's book and could not find any reference to Je Tsongkhapa disregarding the second set. All I could find was his classic emphasis on the need for qualifiers when interpreting the tetralemma (yes, all four lines). I checked back to the Snow Lion translation of LRCM  and in the chapter "Production is not Refuted" (p189) found one discussion on the tetralemma which again is more of a discussion on the need for qualifiers when interpreting the four lines such as refuting  essential nature etc. Nowhere have I found Je Tsongkhapa actively disregarding the second set.


Malcolm wrote:
Look on page 60 of the Napper book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:


Flow said:
Close. I don't like the fact that someone wants me to accept Western speculations on face value rather than to accept the history of my lineage as it is presented in their records - without agreeing to the fact that his argument is indeed based on speculation.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't accept the accounts presented in my own lineage asnecessarily being historically accurate, why should I accept Bon accounts?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
But there is that which does not belong to materialism and which is not reached by the knowledge of the philosophers who
cling to false-imaginations and erroneous reasonings because they fail to see that, fundamentally, there is no reality in
external objects. When it is recognised that there is nothing beyond what is seen of the mind itself, the discrimination of
being and non-being ceases and, as there is thus no external world of object of perception, nothing remains but the solitude
of Reality. This does not belong to the materialistic philosophers, it is the domain of the Tathagatas. If such things are
imagined as the comming and going of the mind-system, vanishing and appearing, solicitation, attachment, intenses
affection, a philosphic hypothesis, a theory, an abode, a sense-concept, atomic attraction, organism, growth, thirst,
grasping,- these things belong to materialism, they are not mine.' Lankavatara sutra, Chapter IV, Transcendental Intelligence

Malcolm wrote:
Interesting that you pick a cittamatra sutra rather than one more in line with Madhyamaka.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Namdrol said:
Napper's book Dependent Arising has a whole section devling into this issue. Look there.

N

mudra said:
Ok so checked the index in Napper's book and could not find any reference to Je Tsongkhapa disregarding the second set. All I could find was his classic emphasis on the need for qualifiers when interpreting the tetralemma (yes, all four lines). I checked back to the Snow Lion translation of LRCM  and in the chapter "Production is not Refuted" (p189) found one discussion on the tetralemma which again is more of a discussion on the need for qualifiers when interpreting the four lines such as refuting  essential nature etc. Nowhere have I found Je Tsongkhapa actively disregarding the second set.

Malcolm wrote:
Check again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
This sums up my whole point: I am on a Buddhist forum and have to cope with materialistic science trying to debunk the authenticity of my lineage... Thanks, Sir!

adinatha said:
You are either misunderstanding the criticisms or you are being disingenuous for the sake of ranting.

Malcolm wrote:
Flow does not seem to like the fact that we are not merley accepting the authenticithy of Bon accounts since they Bon accounts.

This like asking us to accept the Srimad Bhagavatam at face value when it describes Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Those who assert ultimate production must assert that it withstand analysis by reasoning that analyses reality. As this is so, they must use reason to analyze production so as to discover which it is among the four alternatives ...

wrong four alternatives, he means production from self, other, both and causelessly.

N

mudra said:
Am aware of that, but I felt the implication is that for existents it would be the same approach. Am looking for a citation in which he glosses the second set of extremes but can't find one in LRCM or Ocean of Reasoning. Help me out: where does he actually actively, definitively disregard the second set?

Malcolm wrote:
Napper's book Dependent Arising has a whole section devling into this issue. Look there.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Unknown said:
Those who assert ultimate production must assert that it withstand analysis by reasoning that analyses reality. As this is so, they must use reason to analyze production so as to discover which it is among the four alternatives ...


Malcolm wrote:
wrong four alternatives, he means production from self, other, both and causelessly.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
Do you actually want an answer to your rhetorical question?
I'm sure you have an idea of how we define matter.
Who is we?

Max Planck? Werner Heisenberg? Erwin Schrödinger? Dogen Zenji?


Malcolm wrote:
We Buddhists.

We define matter as the four elements: earth, water, fire, and air -- the caturmahābhūtani.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 22nd, 2011 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:


Flow said:
I am speaking of consciousness as the opposite of what we perceive of as matter

Malcolm wrote:
That is a non-description.



Flow said:
You stated: There is no reality at all, of any kind
I have to disagree. And Nagarjuna disagrees also:

Malcolm wrote:
You might think that Nāgārjuna disagrees, but he does not disagree. For Nāgārjuna śūnyatā is tattva, the real. If you say, however that śūnyatā is real, you have reified emptiness and are about as far away from tattva, the real, as you can get.

Flow said:
A simple reminder of Descartes should actually be enough to refute this. There is always reality. If something is – it is – and that is reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna, as well as the Buddha, reject this. There is no "is". Nāgārjuna would reject your claim the following way "Apart from what has been, and what has not been, there is no [present] being".

Reality, for Nāgārjuna is freedom from four extremes. Relative truth is free from four extremes, also ultimate truth is free from four extremes.


Flow said:
If emptiness is emptiness is. If form is form is. If form is emptiness, emptiness is form - but there still: IS. Reality won't go away.

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness is not established. It has no characteristics. Hence, we have the discussion of the eighteen kinds of emptiness, one of the most important of which is the emptiness of emptiness.


Flow said:
The question is about what kind of reality you are speaking of. If you speak about absolute reality in the way of 'matter always existing' or 'the self' or 'the Buddha' or what not – then of course you point into the right direction. But you are not correct to assert that there is no-thing. Nothing can not be.

Malcolm wrote:
I did not assert existence, therefore, I cannot be accused of asserting non-existence. When you discover your bank account is empty, you say you have no money. When you investigate things and find out that they have no reality, that is not an assertion of non-existence. It is not my fault if things fail the reality test. Apart from things (dharmas,material and mental), there is nothing else that could be real.


Flow said:
And what is not is not. This is a semantic problem. Nothing more. In Bön the concept of aware space is utilized: Emptiness – but emptiness is not nothingness. At least not in the Bön teaching. What you proclaim here is actually nihilism. And that is not dharma. Seriously.

Malcolm wrote:
Nihilism is only the assertion that something which existed no longer now exists [ucchedavāda]. For those who do not assert existence, the fault of non-existence cannot be applied.

In order for there to be reality to be established, something must be established to exist. If nothing can be established to exist, for what reason can reality be established to exist. Likewise, Nāgārjuna has said "Since arising, abiding and perishing are not established, the conditioned is not established. Since the conditioned is not established, how will the unconditioned be established?" Likewise he states elsewhere, "If there were something slightly not empty, there would be something that could be empty; but as there is nothing that is not empty, where is there something that could be empty?"

Nāgārjuna, you see, is quite uncompromising in his anti-realism.

Flow said:
Buddhist philosophy is not afflicted with this radical dualism. Mind and matter are two sides of the same coin. Everything is part of a single continuous reality. But, of necessity, we may analyze out and abstract certain aspects of reality by way of our intellect. However, this does not make these distinct aspects separate realities or separate substances. Mind and matter are part of a single whole; they are not separate orders of being.'

Malcolm wrote:
This is all just relative truth. He is referring to the issue of Cartesian dualism. He is incorrect however in one thing -- from Yogacara on down, there Buddhist philosophy does maintain a substance dualism between mind and matter. Madhyamakas don't really care much what your correct relative truth, provided that it is efficient, i.e. when you plant a seed, it produces a sprout, while at the same time rejecting realist arguments to explain the process of germination.

Flow said:
'Mind and matter are part of a single whole; they are not separate orders of being.'
→ 'Consciousness is the 'root' of reality.'

Malcolm wrote:
How can you say that consciousness is the root of reality of you maintain that consciousness and matter are part of a single whole? Further, how can you given primacy to consciousness if you regard consciousness and matter as a single whole?

Flow said:
But please remember that we are bound by language and that language can by constitution only be the map to the territory we are speaking about... So don't get hooked up on terms, please. Logic proving the  conceptual system itself - cannot penetrate into the non-conceptual - the non-dual.

Malcolm wrote:
Not all non-dualities are the same. Buddhist non-dualism is epistemic, whereas Hindu non-dualism is ontological. What do I mean by this? Non-duality, for a Mahdyamaka means that in reality, because of dependent origination, the extremes of asti and nasti, being and non-being, are reifications (samaropa) and have no reality. This is the essence of the fifteenth chapter of the Mulamadhyamakakarikas (in addition to issuing a fundamental blow to Samkhya philosophy).



Flow said:
You having mentioned him to prove that you are not a materialist is exactly what I referred to before: that you claim to have accepted an ontology based on certain metaphysical assumptions [Buddhism] but you speak from a perspective of another one [materialism].

Malcolm wrote:
I don't have an ontology. And I am not speaking from the perspective of materialism. I just happen to think that Buddhist texts undergo clear evolution because I have been studying them since I was 16 and have read thousands of them in various translations and languages.


Flow said:
Just because there is the doctrine of dependent origination [which I have not spoken upon at all] it does not mean that this is proof of Darwinian evolution which needs to be accepted for your linguistic theory to uphold.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not arguing for the evolution of Buddhist texts because I happen to also accept natural selection as reasonable theory of how lifeforms evolve over time, not to mention the fact that such evolution is mathematically verifiable. I am arguing for the evolution of Buddhist texts based on the record of Buddhist texts and what is in them and the clear development of such texts over time.


Flow said:
Remember where we started out? I doubted that with your analytical tools borrowed from linguistics based on anthropology, based on evolution theory - you might go wrong in your assertions toward the past of Tibet - or of any other place in the world. This is what I am saying.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't have any assertions about the Tibean past apart from what can be verified for example in Chinese annals, Indian records, Arabian Records, Tibean Records. Everything else, which is only found in Tibetan texts that has no third party independently verifiable source I regard as "tradition". And in this respect Bonpos have their traditions and Buddhists have theres. I thought I should have made it clear that there are traditions in both Buddhism and Bon that I do not regard as objectively factual, even though they may be spiritually meaningful. Such things as the Mt. Meru cosmology and so on. When it comes to history, in the other hand, I think that Buddhism is on much stronger ground.


Flow said:
Then I go on and make the argument that quantum physics implies that 'consciousness' is the 'base', 'root, [in lack of a better term] of reality which opens the door for different models of dependent origination concerning the appearance of life and the cosmos. Which would then be the ground to question your anthropology and hence your method of linguistical analysis. - and hence your assumptions about the history of Tibet or any other place in the world. It is as easy as that.

Malcolm wrote:
When you have studied more, you will rely less on abstract theories which are totally besides the point, and more on what your tradition actually says.


Flow said:
Or could please be so kind and show me on your language tree how proto-indian languages develop into Chinese?

Malcolm wrote:
We can infer that all human language descends from language spoken in Africa.

Quentin D. Atkinson, a biologist at the University of Auckland in New Zealand, has shattered this time barrier, if his claim is correct, by looking not at words but at phonemes — the consonants, vowels and tones that are the simplest elements of language.  Dr. Atkinson, an expert at applying mathematical methods to linguistics, has found a simple but striking pattern in some 500 languages spoken throughout the world: A language area uses fewer phonemes the farther that early humans had to travel from Africa to reach it.

Some of the click-using languages of Africa have more than 100 phonemes, whereas Hawaiian, toward the far end of the human migration route out of Africa, has only 13. English has about 45 phonemes.

This pattern of decreasing diversity with distance, similar to the well-established decrease in genetic diversity with distance from Africa, implies that the origin of modern human language is in the region of southwestern Africa...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/science/15language.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Or how Sumerian gives rise to Maya -scripts? And please remember: a resemblance does not imply causation.
This is a non-sequitor. You need some intellectual discipline. Studying tent systems will give you that.


Flow said:
The next thing is: I do not adhere to any foundation of anything. I simply make clear that there are different cosmologies available and hence it is not certain that any place in the world including his history can be accurately examined which would then let one state that one had found 'the Truth'. When Nagarjuna finds 'the Truth' he does so based on a solid system of logical reasoning.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said you are an idealist. This is a typical idealist train of thought. Buddhism, philosophically speaking, in general is species of nominalism.

Nāgārjuna did not build a system on the basis of logical resasoning. He poked holes in other people's systems because they are all based on false cognitions predicated on naive or formal assumptions of being and non-being. He himself has no system, and neither, for that matter do I. Everything are are discussing however is based on relative truth, and that, as I explained above, is predicated on efficiency. We can certainly entertain the idea that storks delivered us to our parents, and this might well be true, one might say, because after all it is but one of several theories of procreation. But after sufficient observation, you might be inclined to discard this theory for the one that suggests that sexual intercourse is more responsible for procreation.

Flow said:
What you are doing is setting up strawmen pointing to 'my bad understanding of dharma' and then starting your wordgames:

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, Flow, you were the one than came on with all the heavy bullshit about ontologies, materialism, etc., and berating us about how consciousness (which you still have failed to define for me) is the root of reality and so on, as if that explains anything.

Flow said:
'not mortal' 'without death' doesn't imply eternity? I am sorry but this is hilarious. I know about amrta pretty well - as I mentioned I am educated in the Vedic source literature. Amrta is the symbol for eternity. You could say it is the endless knot of Sanatana dharma... This is a semantic word game which does not lead anywhere. If 'without death' does not mean eternal what does it mean then? If something doesn't have an end is it not timeless? Since everything subjugated to time has an end? Is timelessness not equivalent to eternity?

Malcolm wrote:
Deathless does not have the same connotation in every Indian Religion. In Buddhism it means never being born again. Amrita on the other hand and in this context, based on the commentarial literature, simply means bdud rtsi simply means elixir. If you wish to consult a good non-Gelug commentary on the Mula, Ornament of Reason is good.



Flow said:
What is is. And that describes these same eternity. It only depends on the level of relativity or absoluteness applied on this 'being-ness' whether it is really real or just phenomenally real...

Malcolm wrote:
There is no being-ness. That is just a name.


Flow said:
The same with this:
All commentarial gloss aside, it is well known that the Theravadins are slightly eternalistic in their understanding of nirvana, thus their hermeneutics. Sautrantikas, which are a higher tenet system, are unencumbered by this, but are instead encumbered by a subtle annihilationism.
I refute your point by referring to the comment that is essential to understand the verse you quoted and then you simply wind yourself out of it by exclaiming that Theravada is not developed enough and hence 'slightly eternalistic'.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is how tenet systems work.I suggest you study them. As Shantideva said, "The ultimate of the lower is the relative of the higher".

Flow said:
Thank you though for your recommendations for studies. Actually I am seriously considering to ask for acceptance as a monk at Menri monastery at some point in the future and to go through the Geshe studies there. I have the strong faith that I can better understand Bön through that than by studying Tibetan at some Western university... And there I can also learn the healing arts – not only from Doctors but also from shamanic practitioners...

Malcolm wrote:
I think you will be disappointed by Bon shamanism. It has been rather neglected by the Bonpos themselves. A lot of what they know is just book knowledge, nothing practical any more.

In order to heal anyone, you need to know how to diagnose illness, and for that you need to study the 'bum zhi.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 7:42 PM
Title: Re: Lung disease unique to Vajrayana?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Classically, however, prāṇayāma practitioners are at a much higher risk for vatta disorders than other people.

N

Jangchup Donden said:
Any particular reason for that?

Is lung different than agitation (when it comes to the stages of concentration)?

Malcolm wrote:
Because you are doing very intense exercises with the breath.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Gorampa rejects that emptiness is merely the "non-affirming negation of true existence"


Enochian said:
I highly doubt Tsongkhapa held this view in the first place.

I am sure Tsongkhapa would have agreed with Gorampa that emptiness is a nonimplicative negation of all the Four Extremes, or ANY claim in general.

Malcolm wrote:
No, Gorampa analyzes this in detail.

Basically Tsongkhapa's famous formula for freedom from extremes is "not existent in the ultimate, not non-existent in the relative", he disregards the second set of extremes since they are double negatives and considers it absurd to negate things that "both and exist and do not exist" etc., since things never appear to both exist and not exist at the same time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 12:20 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Enochian said:
So basically Gorampa says that Je Tsongkhapa gets stuck on the level of mind, and what you really need to do is go beyond mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is a little more nuanced than that, but yes, one criticism of Tsongkhapa is that he holds that the intellectual apprehension of emptiness as non-affirming negation of true existence an appropriate conceptualization because it mimics ultimate truth. Gorampa rejects that emptiness is merely the "non-affirming negation of true existence" as well as the notion that an intellectual apprehension of emptiness is ok.

There are over 150 points where Gorampa criticizes Tsongkhapa's views.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 12:03 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:


Flow said:
All I am saying is that there might be the possibility for metaphysical accounts of Tibetan Buddhism and Bön to be actually true.

Malcolm wrote:
In terms of the origin and evolution of Buddhist texts? No. Nāgārjuna did not recover the Prajñāparamita Sūtras from sea monsters off of the coast of Andra Pradesh, as romantic as that might sound. Likewise, Buddha did not teach Abhidhamma pitika in one session to the gods in the thirty three heavens, as romantic as that sounds.

One of the nice things about Buddhist texts, especially Mahāyāna texts is that one can study their evolution. Why? Becauase they were translated into different languages over the period of a thousand years. How is the possible? For two reasons -- we have the Chinese canon and the Tibetan canon.

Buddhist sutras in the Chinese canon clearly show textual development over the many recensions of their translations. The Tibetan forms of these sutras are always in more mature forms than the earlier Chinese translations. And interestingly enough, the surviving Sanskrit copies of many sutras and tantras too show evidence of textual development subsequent to their translations into Tibetan. We can see this type of development even between translations from the Imperial period and the so called "later translation period" which begins with Rinchen Zangpo in the late tenth century.

Another thing we notice with Bon texts is that their orthography is solely post Ralpachen i.e. post 840 or so. In other words, we do not find the kinds of archaic spellings in Bon canonical texts in general (such as the Zer mig, etc) that one would expect to find in ancient, pre-Buddhist texts.

So you can speculate all you like about Ancient Buddhas in mythical kingdoms writing down all the Buddhist sutras in independent form and depositing them in Tibet in the some prehistorical period. But the simple fact of the matter is that texts are plastic culture, they are susceptible to evolution and emendation, and in the case of Buddhist texts, these emendations are trackable to a very large degree until the Chinese and Tibetans stopped translating Indic texts. Of course, even in Tibetan Buddhist treasure literature one can find clear evolution and consolidation of language and terminology and very little in the way of truly archaic spellings, etc., spellings we have actual evidence of from texts which clearly date to that time period.

I think you ought to make yourself more useful, and go get a PhD in Tibetan studies somewhere, like Oslo - with Per Kvarne, who has a Bon studies program, university level. Then you can be really, truly insufferable as only academics can be.

Otherwise, you should study Tibetan Medicine, since you stated you wanted to be a healer. There are a bunch of Bon doctors in Nepal. Go study with them.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 11:40 AM
Title: Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'
Content:
Dexing said:
Not to mention, Hīnayāna used in Mahāyāna sūtras and śāstras doesn't actually refer to the Theravādins, but others like Sarvāstivādins for example.

Namdrol said:
That is not true -- it refers to anyone who follows teachings in Agamas/Nikayas and takes them being definitive.

N

Dexing said:
Most examples of direct refutations I've seen are aimed at various groups like the Sarvāstivādins. I've not seen the Theravādin group specifically targeted for their doctrine. Although, as you say the Śrāvakayāna in general is referred to as Hīnayāna.


Malcolm wrote:
There were not many Theravadins present on the Indian mainland to refute. However, the Theravadin theory of karma is rejected by Nagarjuna, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 10:11 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Namdrol said:
Gorampa is pretty much the definitive voice on Madhyamaka in Tibet.

mudra said:
From the Sakya point of view, yes.

From the Gelug pov, Je Tsongkhapa.

A matter of opinion perhaps.


Malcolm wrote:
Since the Gelugpas have never effectively answered Gorampa, Gorampa is pretty much the definitive voice on Madhyamaka in Tibet.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 9:09 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
'It is exactly due to your adherence to an idealistic view of history why you can't see that the history of Bon is totally unfounded. Your adherence to a foundation of any sort betrays an ignorance of the path. The six senses are without foundation. Nirvana cannot be established either. Buddhist histories are equally unreal.'

So the adherence to a non-foundation are signs of attainment then? Jesus... I'm going to bed. Let's see if I can wrap myself up again to comment on the other stuff you wrote tomorrow...

Malcolm wrote:
There is no foundation. It is termed "the baseless basis" in (Buddhist) Dzogchen, Mahāmudra and Madhyamaka texts. What Adinatha says is perfectly correct. Everything is not established at all in any way. There is no reality at all, of any kind.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 8:57 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:


Flow said:
Please don't leave out half of the story...

Malcolm wrote:
All commentarial gloss aside, it is well known that the Theravadins are slightly eternalistic in their understanding of nirvana, thus their hermeneutics. Sautrantikas, which are a higher tenet system, are unencumbered by this, but are instead encumbered by a subtle annihilationism.


Flow said:
What is it that you see holding me back from understanding dharma?

Malcolm wrote:
In your case, a) you don't know Tibetan b) you have not properly studied tenet systems. c) you seem infected by idealism.

Flow said:
I have simply stated a possible opinion which so far still stands unrefuted...

Malcolm wrote:
Opinions do not need to be refuted, but merely rejected. I rejected your opinion, viz resorting to the use of textual analysis to understand the history of the Tibetan adoption of Buddhism required a materialist ontology.

The following verses cannot be parsed as you would like to parse them. However, the translation I gave you by Garfield is not, in my opinion very accurate. My apologies.


aparapratyayaṁ śāntaṁ prapañcairaprapañcitam|
nirvikalpamanānārthametattattvasya lakṣaṇam||9||

Not known from another, peaceful, not proliferated through proliferations,
non-conceptual, undifferentiated, that is characteristic of the real.


pratītya yadyadbhavati na hi tāvattadeva tat|
na cānyadapi tattasmānnocchinnaṁ nāpi śāśvatam||10||

Some thing arisen dependent on some (other) thing, that (thing) is not the same as the (other) thing,
and also is not different from it, therefore, it is neither annihilated and is not permanent (tattasmānnocchinnaṁ nāpi śāśvatam)

anekārthamanānārthamanucchedamaśāśvatam|
etattallokanāthānāṁ buddhānāṁ śāsanāmṛtam||11||

Not identical, not different, not annihilated, not permanent,
that is the amrita (or nectar) of the doctrine (śāsanāmṛtam) of the saviors of the world, the buddhas.

+++++++

Not known from another, peaceful, not proliferated through proliferations,
non-conceptual, undifferentiated, that is characteristic of reality
Some thing arisen dependent on some (other) thing, that (thing) is not the same as the (other) thing,
and also is not different from it; therefore, it is not annihilated and is not permanent. 
Not identical, not different, not annihilated, not permanent,
that is the amrita (or nectar) of the doctrine (śāsanāmṛtam) of the saviors of the world, the buddhas.

Taken together, things are not the same, are not different, are not annihilated nor are they permanent, that is reality. When that is known directly, since it is known that things are free from extremes, also all proliferation regarding things are pacified. That is peace.

The second verse is discussing the meaning of the first verse, its implication for things, which is the summarized as being the amrita, the nectar of the Buddhas teachings. These verses do not concern a transcendent reality, though if you are conditioned by Advaita, you might be inclined to see things that way (a rabbit hole many people never escape from).

Since "not identical, not different, not annihilated, not permanent" is the nature of things because things are dependently originated, therefore, when there are no buddhas in the world to teach it, the doctrine of dependent origination can still be realized by pratyekabuddhas.

Flow said:
--> eternal truth [look back at what you wrote about: sanatana dharma, yungrung bön, 1000 Buddhas...]

Malcolm wrote:
No, not eternal, here, rather it is actually amrita, which literally means "without death" and refers to the elixir of the devas, etc. as I am sure you know. It is funny because in the Tibetan, immortal would be translated as 'chi med, but here in Tibetan the word was translated as bdud rtsi which means figuratively the "elixir that defeats the demon of death" i.e. Yama mara.

In any event, we do not have a concept of Sanatana Dharma in Buddhism. For example, Maitreyanatha argues in the Uttaratantra (the main source of teaching on tathāgatagarbha) that the Dharma is not a perfect refuge because it is conditioned and impermanent. Etc.

So you are 25, I started learning Tibetan when I was 27. It took me ten years to read fluently and I was translating texts after three years. There is hope for you.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Multiplication of merit?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I was noticing on the Tibetan calendar that on certain days merit is multiplied anywhere from 100 times to 10 million. How does that work exactly?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, because you believe in it.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
Guess that makes the Buddha a materialist then:

"The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

-- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LastLegend said:
We use senses to experience the world, but most of us do so with emotional reactions or biases or obscuration.

Malcolm wrote:
Flow's views seem to reflect a classical idealism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:


Flow said:
Oh, everyone that doubts that either consciousness, mind, or God is the root of reality and rather refers to his sensual perception as the means of obtaining knowledge about what is real and not real is by definition a materialist...

Malcolm wrote:
Guess that makes the Buddha a materialist then:

"The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

-- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I have been reading through this thread and I gotta say that is one smart kid (Flow that is) He may not always be right on the money but obviously well educated,

Malcolm wrote:
A good western education, broad familiarity with phenomenology, existentialism, physics, etc. will not necessarily help one understand the Dharma. It may in fact serve as a tremendous obstacle.

Since the anonymous authors of the Perfection of Wisdom sutras teased out the true import of the Buddha's teachings of dependent origination, commented upon by Nagarjuna, there has been no philosophical system superior in any way, shape or form.

One's time therefore is better spent on this.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Nangwa said:
I think you read the books description on Amazon, and not the actual book.

Enochian said:
I pretty much read the whole thing on Google Books


Malcolm wrote:
Gorampa is pretty much the definitive voice on Madhyamaka in Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
I don't see anyone here advancing materialist philosophy. In your case Don Quixote comes to mind on this score, in other words, you are tilting at wind mills. No materialists here, not even physicalists, let alone advocates of a Newtonian clockwork universe (and Newton himself was not a materialist in any sense of the word, alchemist, astrologer, etc., but not a materialist).
Oh, everyone that doubts that either consciousness, mind, or God is the root of reality and rather refers to his sensual perception as the means of obtaining knowledge about what is real and not real is by definition a materialist...

Malcolm wrote:
What is the root of consciousness? Is this consciousness conditioned, or unconditioned. Are there discreet consciousnesses or is consciousness a single field, and so on?

What is your theory of consciousness?

Now, to begin with, we are Buddhist, so we reject outright the notion of God as the root of reality. Just to get that out of the way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Enochian said:
Namdrol,

If Vimalamitra was Indian, why do you need to rely on the Guhyagarbha tantra???

Namdrol said:
Because it had a Sanskrit original, now lost, but once extant, for sure.

N


Enochian said:
Well thats my point.  Why not rely on something more concrete like Vimalamitra?

Is there doubt that Vimalamitra existed?

Malcolm wrote:
Vimalamitra actually translated the Guhyagarbha.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
You guys should listen to yourselves: You accuse me of being a neophyte - a new age philosopher - a poser - and proud. Jeehh... All that for a simple disagreement upon Western methods of historical inquiry? Really?

gregkavarnos said:
So does this model of historical enquiry not base historical record on cross eamined accounts of historical occurences?  Does it not rest in the belief that history arises from causes and conditions?  That there is a chain of circumstances or situations that lead to some form of, for want of a better word, historical progress (or even historical regress)?  Is everything in this method of history that you propose just made up by whoever wants to whenever they want to?

Malcolm wrote:
Flow would like the leave open the possibility that we actually descend from noble light beings that became junkies for sweet sticky stuff on the surface of the earth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Enochian said:
Namdrol,

If Vimalamitra was Indian, why do you need to rely on the Guhyagarbha tantra???

Malcolm wrote:
Because it had a Sanskrit original, now lost, but once extant, for sure.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
And he wants students -- and that ain't so easy either, students are a big pain in the ass - like children, only worse, since they are adults.
I am sorry, but this is plain wrong as so much that has been stated here before. Nowhere do I say that I want students. Period. I am saying that I am opening up my journey to becoming a teacher to the world.

Malcolm wrote:
If you want to become a teacher, it means you want to have students. That's fine with me.


Flow said:
And who are you to doubt anyone's qualification of becoming a teacher himself?

Malcolm wrote:
Prickly.



Flow said:
You mean Quantum Theory right? You realize it's just a theory, right? Meaning it's not a fact.
All you need to refute materialistic philosophy is the double-slit- experiment... No theory necessary.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't see anyone here advancing materialist philosophy. In your case Don Quixote comes to mind on this score, in other words, you are tilting at wind mills. No materialists here, not even physicalists, let alone advocates of a Newtonian clockwork universe (and Newton himself was not a materialist in any sense of the word, alchemist, astrologer, etc., but not a materialist).

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Enochian said:
Can someone tell me why there is this lingering sentiment that Dzogchen is somehow not Indian?

Wasn't Vimalamitra Indian?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes. As was Jñānasūtra.

Srī Simha was from Indochina.

Manushrīmitra was Sinhalese.

Garab Dorje was from Oddiyāna.

This is according to man ngag sde

The sem sde lineage has two Manjushrimitras and whole slew of masters between between them.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 21st, 2011 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
If you want to understand my reasoning at all I recommend you read a bit about ontology to understand how important ontological axioms are for your epistemology...

adinatha said:
Oh I get it, yer a new age philosophizer. You think statements can be true in themselves. You think you can think yer way to truth. That means you think there is something true in truth, which means you are a materialist thinker. Judging by the smirk on yer face, you take pride in yer notions. Mayhaps dunkin yer head in a buckit of icewater would cool yer jets.


Malcolm wrote:
If you read his blog, you can see he is intent on setting himself up as a teacher.

"So I am opening my journey of becoming a) a teacher in the spiritual, philosophical, psychological field and b) a healer with practical knowledge about healing and healthy living up to the whole world to witness and contribute."

As a trained doctor of Tibetan medicine, I can tell you, it ain't so easy healing people. And living healthy ain't so easy either -- mostly people just ignore what you recommend.

And he wants students -- and that ain't so easy either, students are a big pain in the ass -  like children, only worse, since they are adults.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
Actually, you need to learn Tibetan so your sources are not confined to 10 western books.
Oh, thank you for this charming statement. Actually I have already begun to learn Tibetan but I am not anywhere near being able to read scriptures. Actually I still cherish the believe that practice is much more important than scriptural studies and I do have to find the time to learn Tibetan among all the things I actually consider important. But please pardon my ignorance.

Malcolm wrote:
If you wish to better defend your adopted faith, you need to learn Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
conebeckham said:
There CAN be many "introductions" or investigative periods prior to the Ground being introduced as per Silent Bob's comment.....But again, such is not always the case.
Even in presentations of the Four Yogas of Mahamudra, it is said that they don't necessarily occur sequentially.  But when one is studying these things, as texts, or as "methods," one is introduced to them in sequence.  Same with the "investigations" found in Ngedon Gyamtso, and in Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's works, and even in other Mahamudra guidance manuals.

In practice, though, the "Pointing Out" may seem like an instantaneous thing--but I think most of us have trained in methods that would be considered "preliminary investigations" on the path of Mahamudra, even though we may not realize that such methods were leading to "NgoTro."  Good teachers will know where the student's minds are "at," so to speak.....

Malcolm wrote:
That is not what I meant. I meant introductions as I mentioned before, introductions to movement, to stillness, etc. All of which need to be experientially maximized which come long before mahamudra pointing out.

Mostly this kind of thing is done in retreat

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
Actually, you need to learn Tibetan so your sources are not confined to 10 western books.
Oh, thank you for this charming statement. Actually I have already begun to learn Tibetan but I am not anywhere near being able to read scriptures. Actually I still cherish the believe that practice is much more important than scriptural studies and I do have to find the time to learn Tibetan among all the things I actually consider important. But please pardon my ignorance.
Still, this is not the tradition you mentioned, 1000 buddhas. That exists only in Mahāyāna.
As it says in the source: 'The 28 Buddhas are not the only Buddhas believed to have existed. Indeed, Gautama Buddha preached that innumerable Buddhas have lived in past kalpas.' This is what I was referring to...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that follows from the logic of dependent origination. The logic of dependent origination forbids the idea of ultimate beginnings and so it is only natural that there are beginningless buddhas.


Flow said:
This is described in Buddhist literature, and in fact the "devolution" you describe, is predicated on the cyclical destruction of the universe.
I know that it is - and I am not saying it is wrong: but it could be otherwise... You see - I find ultimate truths are a pretty dangerous thing.

Malcolm wrote:
The cyclical arising and destruction of the universe is a relative truth, not ultimate. This is why its narrative is not so fixed.


Flow said:
Yes, you would not arrive at your understanding of historical analysis without the aforementioned axioms which leads to the formulation of evolution theory which leads to the formulation of anthropological and linguistical theories... If consciousness were accepted as the root cause of reality there would be no need for an evolution to take place since everything would be formed from and by consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is rather imprecise. What do you mean by " If consciousness were accepted as the root cause of reality"? What kind of consciousness? Afflicted or unafflicted, one or many?



Flow said:
Anyways... We are reaching a point in this discussion where we will not be able to agree. And I don't want to be impolite by simple not answering your replies. This is developing into an argument about the nature of reality

Malcolm wrote:
Well, what we are discussing is the evolution of texts. That is a fairly narrow topic.

You want to have a discussion about the nature of reality. But there is no much to discuss on that score. My citation of Nāgārjuna summed it up.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
Jinzang said:
the typical Mahamudra pointing out instruction is long transmission that last several months
That hasn't been my experience. The pointing out is fairly brief. But I can't say if my experience is typical or not.

Silent Bob said:
In the 9th Karmapa's text, "Mahamudra--the Ocean of Definitive Meaning", which is the Kagyus' standard MM manual, the traditional 'script' for the pointing-out of ground MM is only a page long (p. 145). There are numerous vipashyana investigations that may also be taught in order to enhance this recognition, but as Jinzang says, the actual pointing-out of the nature of mind by the teacher is brief.

Chris


Malcolm wrote:
My point was that prior to this there are many introductions.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
I am surprised you do not know who Jean Luc Achard is. He is probably the most important Bon translator alive, and one of the world leading scholars of Dzogchen. He is also a serious practitioner.
Well, I haven't been around on this planet in this body for long enough to achieve ultimate knowledge upon everything... No kidding: I have not heard of him before. Probably because I mostly study the books of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche when it comes to Bön and Dzogchen. There is enough to practice and realize in there for a whole lifetime.


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, you need to learn Tibetan so your sources are not confined to 10 western books.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
It does not exist in the Pali Canon. It exists only in Mahāyāna in the Bhadrakalpa sutra.
I dare to disagree: look it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_twenty-eight_Buddhas.


Malcolm wrote:
Ok, well, look at the note on your sources:

"This canonical text [Buddhavamsa], along with the Apadana and Cariyapitaka, has been described as hagiographical [1] as well as a "latecomer" to the Canon".

Still, this is not the tradition you mentioned, 1000 buddhas. That exists only in Mahāyāna.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
Thus he is not eternal in the sense which you mean. His presence is based on the incalculable causes and conditions created during his career as a bodhisattva.
What about all the innumerable Buddhas of the past and the future Buddha Shakyamuni speaks about in the Pali canon? Does this not imply an eternety of Buddhism as a teaching and method?

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha speaks of four or six past Buddhas in the Pali canon (Vipassi, Sikhi, Vessabhu, Kakusanda, Konagama, Kassapa), and one future Buddha, Maitreya.

However, as Nagarjuna points out (xviii.9-12)

"Not dependent on another, peaceful, and
Not fabricated by mental fabrications,
not thought, without distinctions,
that is the character of reality(that-ness).

Whatever comes into being dependent on another
Is not identical to that thing.
Nor is it different from it.
Therefore, it is neither non-existent in time not permanent. 

By the buddhas, the patrons of the world, 
This immortal truth is taught:
Without identity, without distinction,
Not nonexistent in time, nor permanent.

When the fully enlightened ones do not appear,
and when the disciples have disappeared,
The wisdom of the self-enlightened ones
Will arise completely without a teacher.

(Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way)

Thus, because the nature of reality is as described here, there is always a possibility that it can be recognized someone who then becomes a pratyekabuddha.


Flow said:
And I actually just made this point with the Lotus sutra - because I do not ḱnow the exact place of where to find this enumeration of Buddhas in the Pali canon.

Malcolm wrote:
It does not exist in the Pali Canon. It exists only in Mahāyāna in the Bhadrakalpa sutra.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
Therefore, Flow, when it comes to history and historiography, I too, prefer to use ordinary human perception as the base line for conventional truths. Very limiting, yes.
Just suppose there is actually a devolution instead of an evolution of the human species...

Malcolm wrote:
Why bother? There is no evidence of such a thing. Further, evolution and rebirth are non-contradictory. This planet is not the only place where there is sentient life in the universe, nor where there are Buddhist teachings.

These are nice myths, spiritually meaningful, but there is no reason to take the literally, any more than we need to take Vasubandhu's account of Meru and the four continents literally. Since you like to appeal to the Dalai Lama, HH has stated that he wishes that Vasubandhu would rewrite chapter three of the Kośa to bring it up to date with modern science.

Flow said:
I happen to sit in China of 500 A.D. and happen to achieve some deeper level of spiritual realization. Now I write that down onto some leaves or tablets or what have you. I call it 'The Ultimate Wisdom through Perfection in Calmness' and briefly explain which method I used to get there. Then some few hundred years later you come along and say: 'Ah, I read something similar from way back in India. This must be a derivative from it.' Clearly nonsense, isn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
But we do not have any such examples. We have no lab to test this. The simple fact of the matter is that all Tibetans use, as a matter of course, linguistic constructs that foreign to Tibeto-Burman and are only derived from translations of Indic materials -- all constructs using rnam par [vi-] and nye war [upa-], etc. Of course I am not arguing that Tibetan derived all their culture from India. Of course not. But such things as the pañcavidyāsthana, etc., these things are clearly India in origin.

Flow said:
'The world has a beginning and an end.

Malcolm wrote:
This is described in Buddhist literature, and in fact the "devolution" you describe, is predicated on the cyclical destruction of the universe.

Flow said:
The world consists of matter. Matter is the ultimate reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, you are asserting a non-sequitor.


Flow said:
'There have been various migrations of tribes upon the planet which dates we can accurately measure with various forms of datings which are always reliable. These datings give us a clear indication from when a document was written. There is no possibility that this teaching existed orally for thousands of years before. It must date from when it was written down. The scripts that tribes used were influenced by another.

Malcolm wrote:
Given the difference between how Oral Buddhist teachings look in a text, and later Mahayāna compositions, Bon literature, for the most part, fails the test. It lacks the consistent repetition, and so on, typically found in strictly orally recorded traditions.

Of course, there are many possibilities. But when it comes to what we can say is factually true, possibilities are not truths.

Anyway, you are not arguing from any concrete basis.

Flow said:
I know that in order to do historic research one has to assume all of these above mentioned things. '

Malcolm wrote:
In order to good historical research, one does not have to start with the notion that only matter is real.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
I once had an interesting conversation with John Luc Achard on E-Sangha. There he asserted, for example, that dating Shenrab to something like 16000 years BCE was an "mystery" number used in the initiation of ZZNG, and that is was considered both historical and symbolic. But since he would not divulge the meaning, as you can imagine, the conversation did not progress much further.
That sounds interesting. Too bad that there is no further elaboration on this. Was this based on his speculation or on actual transmission?

Malcolm wrote:
I am surprised you do not know who Jean Luc Achard is. He is probably the most important Bon translator alive, and one of the world leading scholars of Dzogchen. He is also a serious practitioner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
Am I wrong to assert that the Lotus sutra formulates Buddha as an eternal being? And hence isn't his method also eternal? Or would you actually argue that Buddhism is a temporal teaching? And how do you prove this with sutra?

Malcolm wrote:
I responded to this, somehow my post was lost.

In short.

The Lotus Sutra presents a situation where the Buddha achieved awakening five gazillion years ago.

But the Buddha does not present himself as "eternal" in the theistic, Sanatana Dharma, sense of the term. The Buddha states in this chapter that his continued presence at Rajagriha is based on his career as a bodhisattva:

The unlimited illumination of my wisdom 
Is such that my life span is one of countless eons 
Attained through long cultivation and work.

Thus he is not eternal in the sense which you mean. His presence is based on the incalculable causes and conditions created during his career as a bodhisattva.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


booker said:
How about Kunzhi as understood in Dzoghen? It is said to be the ground of being - all being sentient and insentient, and is not dependently originated. Isn't it?


Malcolm wrote:
The term "ground of being" does not exist in any Buddhist text, nor any Dzogchen text. It is a western gloss, one that is inaccurate.

There is a term "kun gzhi" this is understood differently in different Dzogchen cycles and by different Dzogchen masters. So there isn't a one size fits all definition.

In those texts that speak of the so called kun gzhi -- the kun gzhi is complete free from all extremes. Whatever arises from it therefore, also must be free from all extremes. "Being and non-being" are just cognitive errors.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'
Content:
Dexing said:
Not to mention, Hīnayāna used in Mahāyāna sūtras and śāstras doesn't actually refer to the Theravādins, but others like Sarvāstivādins for example.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not true -- it refers to anyone who follows teachings in Agamas/Nikayas and takes them being definitive.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
And from where do you get your 'truth' then?

Malcolm wrote:
In the words of ChNN, Drung De'u and Bon, pg 156 "The Bon literature is unequivocal in recounting that the birth of the master Shenrab Miwoche took place on the fifteenth day of the wood mouse male year as we read in the above passage from the Zermig. As regards to the duration of his life there are sources that assert that he lived very many years, calculable only in 'shen years (gshen lo), each equivalent to one hundred human years. Evidently this lies beyond judgment by our limited capacities, and since history must be studied in congruence with ordinary human perceptions, i prefer not to base myself on these traditions."

Therefore, Flow, when it comes to history and historiography, I too, prefer to use ordinary human perception as the base line for conventional truths. Very limiting, yes.

I once had an interesting conversation with John Luc Achard on E-Sangha. There he asserted, for example, that dating Shenrab to something like 16000 years BCE was an "mystery" number used in the initiation of ZZNG, and that is was considered both historical and symbolic. But since he would not divulge the meaning, as you can imagine, the conversation did not progress much further.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
The historical record that Bön has is its own historical writings.[/i].

Malcolm wrote:
That is not sufficient.

For example, Tibetans have a record of the Samye debate which derives from the Ba bzhad annals. It is just a political hatchet job against Chan.

Official Tibetan History has it that Langdarma destroyed Buddhism in the ninth century. But the real story is somewhat different.

Official Tibetan History has it that there was no writing Tibet prior to Srongtsan Gampo, but this is now under dispute; though whatever the case is, Tibetan and Zhang Zhung writing still clearly derive from Gupta script, which itself ultimately derives from Western Semitic, like all alphabets.

Merely having a record does not make it a historical record, nor does it make it true. For example, we have a very nice record of the Shambhala kings in the commentaries of Kalacakra. But the date of the Buddha in these texts is wrong, at least four hundred years too early, and based on that, then we can assume that many other details of this cycle are wrong.

Zhang Zhung and Bon studies have found their Troy, but still await their Dead Sea Scrolls.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
If you accept ChNN's thesis i.e. that Bon philosophy was more or less completely derived from Buddhism, then in fact they Buddhism could not be influenced by Bon in that respect.
No, I do not accept this thesis and I doubt that this is the exact opinion of ChNN on this matter.

Malcolm wrote:
It is, but you go ask him.


Flow said:
He states in an essay about the history of Bön:

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing new here.

Flow said:
I sense you are of the Sakyapa lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
Like ChNN, I trained in Sakya for many years. I still have connections with the Sakya school.

Flow said:
Buddhism and with it Dzogchen and other practices are eternal teachings: dharma - not bound to any place or time. So why should there not be different lineages teaching the same without having substantially been influenced by another?

Malcolm wrote:
Certainly, this is a possibility. But, when it comes to Buddhism, there are very specific features that identify a teachings as Buddhist which permeate Buddhist teachings even through Dzogchen.

Though, here you are mixing up terms: Sanātana Dharma is a Hindu term.

Now, I understand the main point of your argument, namely, that Bon preserves a non-Indic form of Buddhism that in no way depends on Indic Buddhism for its nine yanas. Respectfully, I completely disagree with this assessment. In my opinion Bon completely depends on Indic Buddhism for things like Mahāyāna, Madhyamaka and so on. For example, Dan Martin recently speculated on his blog, Tibeto-logic, that Buddhist sūtras present in the Bon canon are not forgeries, but in fact earlier, abandoned translations (albeit altered to fit a Bon context).

Flow said:
Or do you actually don't think your own metaphysical system to apply [Realm of Clear Light, Gods descending from there to teach etc.]?

Malcolm wrote:
This is a Tibetan myth. I do not take it literally, even though HH Sakya Trizen may -- that is his prerogative.

If you examine the clan histories of ancient Aristocratic families in Tibet, they always are claiming to be the descendants of this or that god. The story of the origins of the Khon clan don't have anything at all do with Buddhism, per se. The story of the Khon clan serves the reinforce the notion that the Khon are special, a little extraordinary, and therefore, more suited to be lineage holders than mere mortals like you and I.

Flow said:
I sense some heavy Western materialism there...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you are writing it to entertain yourself with your own hyperbole, which you obviously relish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 7:57 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"Because there are no copies of the scriptures that by some method can not be dated farther back than 1000 AD.? Is this reason enough for you to deride a complete lineage and refuse to accept that Tibet had a religion before Buddhism came there? "

Virtually all Bon texts that we have, even most of ZZNG, is terma. That is fine, but you can't date terma texts earlier than their discovery unless you have some earlier texts to compare them to.

You will note that I have not impugned the spiritual value of any of the Bon teachings. Not once.

You will also note, for example, that I do not think it is very likely that Sakyamuni Buddha taught the Lanka. The Lanka, and indeed all Mahāyāna sūtras, tantras, etc., are in my opinion, later compositions. I think there is ample reason to think this is so. I also think it does not destroy their spiritual value at all. I apply the same standard to Bon.

As such, I regard Bon as more or less one more branch on the Buddhist tree, albeit a rather late one, and one that has largely forgotten and neglected its autochthonic teachings, favoring ones imported from India.

Naturally, I expect Bonpos to disagree. They are entitled to. But as you note, there is little, if no, proof of Bon claims to the contrary. That does not mean Bon claims are necessarily false (though in the case of things like borrowed Buddhist texts, this is indisputable), it just means that Bonpos have no record to fall back on in history and archaeology.

Re: Zhang Zhung -- yes, there was a place named Zhang Zhung. It collapsed because of climate change, if you follow Belleza's argument. Also its last king, Lugmincha, was assassinated on the orders of Songtsan Gampo in the 7th century. At this point very little archaeology has been done and we have yet to find any cache of Zhang Zhung texts. If and when we do, then we can rewrite early Tibetan history. Until then, we are left only with fragmentary reports in texts written in a different language. Anything else is either speculation or blind faith.

Incidentally, history and realization are two different things entirely. You should be grateful for materialist science, without it you would not have a web forum to be outraged upon.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
Bon has no such historical record.

I stated earlier that most of the traces of Bön are lost to history.

Malcolm wrote:
Can you please tell us what the difference is between these two statements?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 10:04 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
What's going on is that there are a lot of people who take what their traditions report as being to be true, as you yourself are.
So these traditions state that Bön should be disregarded as superstitious nonsense?


Malcolm wrote:
Some of them. You can choose to disregard what they say.




Flow said:
Surely you do not mean to imply that Buddhist Dzogchen derives from Bon?
Surely you want to imply that it was the other way around, yes?

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen as clear antecedents in Indian Buddhist texts such as Guhyagarbha, etc.



Flow said:
On page 31-33 of the aforementioned book by ChNN you can read what he has to say about that... Or you could go on and claim that he refuted all of that by now.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN once speculated that perhaps Zhang Zhung Garab and Garab Dorje might be the same person. I don't believe he presently holds that view. You should ask him.



Flow said:
Buddhism per se ie. core doctrines have not been influenced by Bon at all.
How could they - if they were the same?

Malcolm wrote:
If you accept ChNN's thesis i.e. that Bon philosophy was more or less completely derived from Buddhism, then in fact they Buddhism could not be influenced by Bon in that respect.


Flow said:
This whole debate is basically pointless.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, which why I am surprised you are bothering with it. Buddhism has a very clear historical record. Bon, unfortunately, does not. What Bon has is a large number of texts, none of which can be dated earlier than the 10th century CE. That is the physical limitation imposed by the physical record of Bon culture. The rest is speculative.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 8:26 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Buddhism and Bon
Content:
Flow said:
Well, in lack of a copy - I have to assume that what you write is correct. Given that I still see no indication of the above statement that we were actually discussing to be true: that Buddhism was not influenced by Bön and that rather Bön was influenced by Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism per se ie. core doctrines have not been influenced by Bon at all.

Flow said:
Dzogchen was originally a Bön practice

Malcolm wrote:
Surely you do not mean to imply that Buddhist Dzogchen derives from Bon?




Flow said:
What is going on here? Seriously? And I don't mean you now, Namdrol - since you made a remark which is valid and has no further implications - until one imposes them. But this is not the first time I read and heard people talk like this about Bön ['Bön is a degenerated teaching' etc.] - and actually ChNN also reports about this contempt toward Bön from different Tibetan schools of Buddhism. And that is what shocks me - regardless whether I practice it myself or not.

Malcolm wrote:
What's going on is that there are a lot of people who take what their traditions report as being to be true, as you yourself are.

B


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 6:58 AM
Title: Re: "Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism"
Content:
Flow said:
I do not except you to believe me. That is why I gave you the link to the book of your venerable and beloved teacher.

And just to let you know: There are at least three lineages of Dzogchen... One of them is described in the Zhang Zhung Nyan Gyud - one of the classical Bön teachings....


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I know. I have the entire ZZNG in Tibetan. I am capable of reading it in the original. It is a very wonderful teaching.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 6:56 AM
Title: Re: "Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"He makes it very clear in this particular essay that he sees Bön as the original teaching in Tibet which already was fully established before Shakyamuni's Buddhism came to Tibet."

Yes. But not in the form you imagine.

You need to read his Drung De'u and Bon. Then you will find out that ChNN thinks that the original, pre-Buddhist Bon was divided into twelve lores, etc.

He says in this book, ppg. xvii-xviii: "The five Bon of the Fruit contain manly teachings that can be found in Mahāyāna and Tantrayāna Buddhist traditions, so one can assume that they were introduced into Bon in a period later than that of the twelve lores; the authenticity and originality of the nine and last "way", comprising the Dzogchen teachings, alone is beyond doubt as its historical inception can be correlated with the kingdom of Shang Shung. In any case we can hypothesize that the Bonpos absorbed elements of Buddhism without recognizing them as such, as some scholars maintain, or that they did so in order to survive to counter the great success of the Buddhist faith. The fact remains that in the contemporary Bonpo canon can be found some of the most important Buddhist texts albeit with different titles, and even the biography of Shenrab Miwoche emulates that of Shakyamuni Buddha. There may have been valid reasons for this work of transforming and adaptation of Buddhist elements, perhaps for the very preservation of the authentic Bon teachings, but this principle was soon forgotten and the importance of the original traditions was neglected in favor of the philosophical teachings derived from Buddhism."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 6:45 AM
Title: Re: "Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism"
Content:
Flow said:
I do not except you to believe me. That is why I gave you the link to the book of your venerable and beloved teacher.


Malcolm wrote:
I have it, I have read it. I happen to know there are some opinions in it which ChNN no longer stands by.

He mostly wrote that book to open up debate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: "Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism"
Content:
Flow said:
Such unsubstantiated claims are of no avail.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course I am going to believe you, rather than what my own teacher has said in my presence many times.

If you are really curious about what ChNN thinks, go ask him. Apparently you will very surprised to find out what he thinks about modern day Bon (as opposed to original Bon which had no Abhidharma, Tantra, Perfection of Wisdom, etc.).

Yes, he thinks that there was Dzogchen in Bon prior to Buddhism. But he thinks that is confined to twelve short lines that do not constitute a complete path. You can read about them in his Precious Vase.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I am not disagreeing with you that in terms of samsara, karma is the manifestation of volition.

Malcolm wrote:
Karma is only volition. Apples don't have that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: "Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism"
Content:



Flow said:
I know that this topic was discussed a while ago - but I have to add something to this discussion. The way Bön is presented here is not acceptable. I practice Bön and are pretty well educated about its history and teaching - and what I have read in this thread is - stating it plain and simply: wrong.

Things that have been said here are for example:

'It would more or less be the other way around Bon is more influenced by Buddhism '

'For Buddhism in Tibet to become influenced towards Bon would make it degenerate wouldnt you agree ?'

Wow. This must come either out of complete ignorance or out of ill intention. If the author of these statements would stop speculating in his delusion about other Buddhist teachings and simply ask an authority on that question or look it up - he knew that this is utter nonsense.

Somebody else referred to Chögyal Namkhai Norbus writings. I will restate this again: Please educate yourself before you spread such mislead claims. The writings of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu are always recommended - but especially when it comes to the history of Tibet, Bön and Zhang Zhung... This offensive behavior does not only harm your spiritual practice but may also misleads others. So please refrain from it.

For the sake of setting the record straight in this thread I will post a short introduction into Bön along with a short historic overview:

Malcolm wrote:
In the interest of setting the record straight:

This statement "It would more or less be the other way around Bon is more influenced by Buddhism '", happens to be Norbu Rinpoche's opinion, one which I have personally heard him state on many, many occasions.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Why does an apple suddenly fall from a branch at the very second that it does, and not one second earlier and not one second later?  The wind, the Sun, the season, all these and millions of other factors interact, and these are all the causes that result in that apple dropping. Oh yes, and let's not forget gravity. This, in the simplest sense of the word, is karma.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not karma, this is cause and condition.

Karma, the Buddha said, is volition and what proceeds from volition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'
Content:
Namdrol said:
He did, but he was corrected on this point by Gorampa.

Tsongkhpa is not Candrakirti.

Astus said:
OK, so it is not that there isn't such form of Madhyamaka but rather that you take a view that doesn't accept it just like many others don't agree with the Gelug interpretation (not to mention those who have never even heard of it). No big deal really, there are many views in Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapa asserted that what you report as Candrakirti's view. But he did so by ignoring other things that Candrakirti said which bring focus on what Candra was actually intending.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Mag761138 said:
There is no "my mental continuum" or "your mental continuum", there's just a mental continuum.

Namdrol said:
If you accept that there is a mental continuum, and you accept that mental continuum is afflicted, you have a sufficient basis for accepting rebirth without any need to imagine an integral self driving the process.

N

Mag761138 said:
Not at all.  I am thinknig far more of A.N. Whitehead's concept of "Objective Immortality" in his Process metaphysics far more than Buddhist notions of rebirth.

Malcolm wrote:
The doctrine of Karma in Buddhism is an aesthetic moral theory. Moral actions garner pleasant results, immoral actions garner unpleasant results. Therefore, all happiness and all suffering is result of one's own moral or immoral acts in this or in past lives.

If you can't accept that, than Buddhism will be a constant source of frustration for you and you will waste a lot of intellectual energy trying to get Buddhism to fit your needs. In the end, you will give up Buddhism. So, it is better perhaps not even to start. One does not need to be a Buddhist to meditate, or be a nice person,or even a profoundly spiritual, compassionate person etc.

If you wish to be free of suffering and its causes, however, then Buddhism is your only solution.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 20th, 2011 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
what is incense other than a blend of fragrant herbs, spices and resins?


Malcolm wrote:
Incense is medicine, and to be made properly it needs to compounded properly, with the proper rites, and so on.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Mag761138 said:
There is no "my mental continuum" or "your mental continuum", there's just a mental continuum.

Malcolm wrote:
If you accept that there is a mental continuum, and you accept that mental continuum is afflicted, you have a sufficient basis for accepting rebirth without any need to imagine an integral self driving the process.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'
Content:
Namdrol said:
We don't agree that a certain Madhyamaka teaching teaches this.

Astus said:
Didn't Tsongkhapa argue that even sravakas realise the emptiness of both personality and phenomena?

Malcolm wrote:
He did, but he was corrected on this point by Gorampa.

Tsongkhpa is not Candrakirti.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question
Content:
Namdrol said:
Nope, absolutely not -- they are referring gla rtsi, which comes from the so-called "musk deer", Moschus moschiferus.

gregkavarnos said:
How incredibly unfortunate!  So how do they justify putting it in riwo sang cho incense then?

That's why, in 99% of cases, it's always better to make ones own incense, especially for ritual use.

Malcolm wrote:
Musk and musk deer leather, tusks, and so on, and so on are also very antiseptic and used for dispelling negative spirits. It is one of the main medicines used to repel spirit provocations too. Musk deer tusks at one time were used as needles for blood-letting since they will not cause infections.

For sang offerings, it is not necessary to use an incense. One can use herbs, sage, juniper, etc.

There are some incenses made for use in lower tantra that do not have musk. People who follow the system of lower tantra should use these.

Generally musk, gugul and so on are used in anuttarayoga tantra incense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question
Content:
Namdrol said:
Vegans and vegetarians should never, ever, use Tibetan Incense, because all good quality Tibetan incense has quite a bit of real musk in it.

Musk is also a very important substance in Tibetan and Ayurvedic medicine.

N


Huseng said:
I didn't know that. That's a useful piece of information, indeed.

Malcolm wrote:
On the other hand, the smell of musk is not attractive of certain kinds of provocations and so on, which is one of the reasons why it's use is so prevalent in Tibetan incense.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I would have to say that the positive aspect of getting everybody to wear Dharma clothes (especially the pants/skirt) is the fact that no one will turn up wearing hot pants or super mini skirts which can be awfully distracting for a lusty character such as myself!  Boy have I seen some super sexy clothing at Dharma centres over the past few years! <--- that's me the chauvanist pig

Malcolm wrote:
Consider an offering, sense object goddesses making offering to sense organ god.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'
Content:
Astus said:
Based on a certain Madhyamaka teaching if we agree that arhats realise the same emptiness as bodhisattvas and buddhas

Malcolm wrote:
We don't agree that a certain Madhyamaka teaching teaches this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
The musk they are referring to may be plant based (Pelargonium odoratissimum. Geraniaceae) like that used in

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, absolutely not -- they are referring gla rtsi, which comes from the so-called "musk deer", Moschus moschiferus.

The musk deer belongs to the family Moschidae and lives in India, Pakistan, Tibet, China, Siberia and Mongolia. To obtain the musk, the deer is killed and its gland, also called "musk pod", is removed. Upon drying, the reddish-brown paste inside the musk pod turns into a black granular material called "musk grain", which is then tinctured with alcohol. The aroma of the tincture gives a pleasant odor only after it is considerably diluted. No other natural substance has such a complex aroma associated with so many contradictory descriptions; however, it is usually described abstractly as animalic, earthy and woody[3] or something akin to the odor of baby's skin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musk " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vegans and vegetarians should never, ever, use Tibetan Incense, because all good quality Tibetan incense has quite a bit of real musk in it.

Musk is also a very important substance in Tibetan and Ayurvedic medicine.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'
Content:
ananda said:
What is your opinion ?
Should Hīnayāna continue to be used to refer to the Theravāda teachings or should it be avoided ?
Do you think the term is derogatory ?

Dexing said:
I learned the terms Hīnayāna and Mahāyāna as "Small" and "Large" Vehicles due to the scope of their doctrines on Śūnyatā.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not how the term is applied in Mahāyāna sūtras and treatises themselves. This is gloss used in the term in countries where is no pure Nikāya school Sangha.

Dexing said:
In that sense they are Small and Large Vehicles respectively, and the term Small Vehicle (Hīnayāna) is not derogatory, but descriptive.

Malcolm wrote:
It is still derogatory.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 9:46 AM
Title: Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Namdrol and/or others knowledgeable about this practice -

I recently received the transmission of a sang practice (from ChNN)... It so happens I purchased some "Riwo Sangchod" incense a while back and when looking at the box noticed it contains musk. Is this a problem? Do sang offerings need to be free of animal products?

Also, can sang be offered any time of day or must it be morning?

Malcolm wrote:
Sang does not need to be free of musk. But don't use that stuff for Naga Pujas!

Sang is usually offered in the morning. But can be offered at other times as well.

You can use any fragrant herbs or sage, etc., for burning in sang. It just has to smell nice, does not have to be juniper, etc.

Juniper however is used because of its antiseptic properties and sang does mean "to cleanse".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: Use of the term 'Hīnayāna'
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The term Hīnayāna, inferior vehicle, is derogatory, and in terms of the way it is used in Mahāyāna sütras, intentionally so.

Since all Tibetan Buddhists are Mahāyānis, they don't feel slighted by the term and even go to some lengths to try and give "hīnayāna" props.

However, Tibetan Buddhists are notoriously ignorant of the actual content and context of many of doctrines to which they adhere. Why? Because they rely on abstracted commentaries on India sutra material, such as Sutra-alaṃkara etc., rather than actual sutras.

A quick read of the Sutra-alaṃkara will quickly demonstrate to any clear thinking person that the author of that text had a definitely low opinion of non-Mahāyāna schools.

The question is, is the Mahāyāna use of the term justifiable?

Well, if you turn away from intending to achieve full buddhahood [as defined by Mahāyānists], then you are turning to an inferior yāna, from a Mahāyāna perspective. There are a number of other reason why the doctrine the Buddha taught in the Agamas/Nikayas are regarded as inferior as well. Not in the sense that any of the Buddha's teachings are inferior, but in terms of the intended audience. Mahāyānists use the term to describe an inferior motivation, cessation, arhatship, etc., in an effort to dissuade those who might abandon the heroic eons long mission of attaining full awakening.

On the other hand, it is also important to bear in mind that Vajrayāna texts are similarly critical of those who avoid or do not have faith in Vajrayāna -- for example, the Hevajra Tantra refers to those Buddhists who follow lower tantra and ordinary Mahāyāna as "tirthikas", a term usually meant for non-Buddhists.

So when these terms are used, they are not meant to be categories for ranking teachings overall (and this is the great Tibetan Buddhist hermeneutical error). Instead, the term hīnayāna should only be used with Mahāyāna audiences when the teacher in question is describing the inferiority of the desiring to attain the result of an arhat or a pratyekabuddha as opposed to full buddhahood.

In terms of the whole of Buddhism, however, we are only the fourth largest religion of the planet. In ecumenical Buddhist gatherings it is skillful to avoid using the term "hīnayāna" because it is intentionally derogatory and because there are those who find it offensive, understandably so. We also run the risk of insulting aryas by using the term carelessly.

It does not mean however that when we are discussing with other Mahāyānists where Theravāda would be placed in the Mahāyan̄a scheme of things, that we should pretend that Theravāda is something other than a Hīnayāna school.

This being said, just because someone has ordained in Theravāda does not mean that they are necessarily a hīnayāna practitioner. Just as there were Mahāyānis in other Hīnayāna schools, likewise there have been and are Mahāyanis in Theravada.

But Theravāda itself, like Mulasarvastivada, etc. is a hīnayāna school when considered from the perspective of Mahāyāna.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 9:19 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Enochian said:
I have yet to see someone tell it like it is, like I do in my signature.

Pema Rigdzin said:
This is because you haven't yet received Dzogchen transmission and you've read very few Dzogchen texts. The explanations about the mirror and kadag and lhundrub and their inseparability are skillful means to bring about understanding and possibly trigger insight, but they are not meditated upon. So from that point of view they are not the main point. Instead, one relaxes with an utter lack of modification or fabrication or placement or objectification of any kind; though even these words can be misleading because there can be a great resemblance between rigpa and the state of non-conceptual quiescence, even though in reality there is the most profound difference between the two. This is of course why the guru is indispensable: first in terms of helping one recognize one's primordial state and then guiding one so one can stay on course and not fall into deviations that can be difficult to apprehend.


Enochian said:
Well let me ask you or anyone else this.

The key thing in Dzogchen is distinguishing sems from rigpa.

Thus you need some sort of obvious characteristic of sems to distinguish it.

Do any Dzogchen teachings point out the obvious distinguishing characteristic of sems i.e. sems (mind) is always on the Three Times?

I haven't read anything regarding this in Dzogchen material, even though it is quite obvious.....

Malcolm wrote:
The most obvious distinguishing characteristic of sems is conceptuality. Time is not established per se, it is a conceptual construct.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
But if I were attending one of ChNN's centers, for instance, it seems like it would be more appropriate to just wear comfortable western style clothes and blend in that way.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, wearing Ngagpa gear is sure to provoke stares and eye-rolling. Of course, you can wear Vajra dance supervira costume if you are a vajra dancer and no one will blink.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 3:12 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Enochian said:
But so is Dzogchen with its endless mirror analogies, and intellectual concepts such as kadag, inseperability etc.


Namdrol said:
That's not Dzogchen.


Enochian said:
Ok I have to take your word for it, since I am not a Dzogchen practitioner.

Malcolm wrote:
The difference is that Dzogchen is experiential while Mahdyamaka is analytical.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Enochian said:
But so is Dzogchen with its endless mirror analogies, and intellectual concepts such as kadag, inseperability etc.


Malcolm wrote:
That's not Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Enochian said:
I am an obsessed follower of Mādhyamaka philosophy...

Malcolm wrote:
Then there is no hope for you at all. Madhyamaka is not to followed, it is to be used to pacify proliferations, including the one called "Madhyamaka".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
Why is belief in reincarnation a requirement of following the Buddha? Must one believe in reincarnation to attain supreme joy and peace of mind?

Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
"Dharma Lite" Versus "The Real Thing" Dharma
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/approaching_buddhism/introduction/dharma_lite.html


Malcolm wrote:
The only problem with this Article is that the term "Dharma-lite" was not coined by Berzin -- I remember seeing it bandied about back in the hoary days of Buddha-L.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 19th, 2011 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions
Content:
mindyourmind said:
If the Mahamudra POI is a process that takes months, how is Mahamudra supposed to be so well suited for Western students?

Malcolm wrote:
Kagyu Mahamudra is gradual and experiential, so some people think it is a more suitable instruction for acquainting people with the nature of the mind.

Dzogchen introduction is also experiential, but it really depends on the student's acumen to get it since it is not as gradual and step by step.



N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2011 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
The closest thing to collective or social karma I've ever seen, can be found in Jamgon Mipham "Gateway to Knowledge Vol II" Rangjung Yeshe Publications.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, all of this action is individually engaged in and accumulated. Nations, states, towns, cities, villages, and hamlets do not have their own karma, so to speak.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2011 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:


Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
Hm, societies have no karma of their own?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2011 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Chosing the right master
Content:
spanda said:
Hi

From what i understood, in Vajrayana tradition, it is important to have a fully prepared master. I remember that I read that the process of "testing" the master (to see if it is a genuine one or a fake one?) before embarking on the path could take even 12 years (!). Is this true? Can someone give me some quotes, or some tittles to read in detail about this?

Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
Well, in the beginning, a safe bet is to pick a lineage head like HH Dalai Lama, HH Sakya Trizen, one of the Karmapas, etc.

Then, later, when one has more knowledge and so on, one can choose other teachers.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2011 at 7:36 PM
Title: Re: Thoughts
Content:
muni said:
One fixated thought =phenomenon is born.
Focus by following thought = me is born.

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty sure you have the order reversed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2011 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Animal By-products & Karmic Debts
Content:
Kyosan said:
Whether there is a karmic debt or not, one of the practices in Buddhism is to avoid causing other beings to suffer. Using animal byproducts causes animals to suffer, maybe not directly but certainly indirectly.

In addition to thinking about our own karma, I think it's also important to think about the suffering of others. That is compassion.


Malcolm wrote:
Of course we need to think of the suffering of others.

The question, as always, is motivation.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2011 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Commitment Issues
Content:
Namdrol said:
Most people have this idea that their root guru is the one who gives them their main practice. That is not true. The root guru is the one who gives someone their understanding of the nature of their mind, which is what makes all practices fruitional.

N

mr. gordo said:
Hi Namdrol,

Question for you, what does it mean if a person finds a practice they like, but doesn't feel a strong connection to the Guru?  Can a strong preference for a practice over-ride the lack of having a strong connection to a teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
All Gurus are reflections of your root guru.

So yes, practice what you are attracted to.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2011 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:


Serenity509 said:
If in each new life, you are born with no memories and bad habits of the past, that's like a new chance to live the dharma each time. Eventually, you would live a life that attains nirvana.

Malcolm wrote:
That however is not how it works in Buddhism. This sutta is instructive:

At Savatthi. Then, early in the morning, Cala the nun put on her robes and, taking her bowl & outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms. When she had gone for alms in Savatthi and had returned from her alms round, after her meal she went to the Grove of the Blind to spend the day. Having gone deep into the Grove of the Blind, she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding.

Then Mara the Evil One, wanting to arouse fear, horripilation, & terror in her, wanting to make her fall away from concentration, approached her & said, "What is it that you don't approve of, nun?"

"I don't approve of birth, my friend."


[Mara:]
Why don't you approve of birth?
One who is born
enjoys sensual pleasures.
Who on earth
ever persuaded you:
'Nun, don't approve of birth'?

[Sister Cala:]
For one who is born
there's death.
One who is born
sees pain.
It's a binding, a flogging, a torment.
That's why one shouldn't approve
of birth.

The Awakened One taught me the Dhamma
— the overcoming of birth —
for the abandoning of all pain,
he established me in
the truth.
But beings who have come to form
& those with a share in the formless,
if they don't discern cessation,
return to becoming-again.
Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, "Cala the nun knows me" — vanished right there.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn05/sn05.006.than.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As is this one:

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Subha the student, Todeyya's son, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the cause, why baseness & excellence are seen among human beings, among the human race? For short-lived & long-lived people are to be seen, sickly & healthy, ugly & beautiful, uninfluential & influential, poor & rich, low-born & high-born, stupid & discerning people are to be seen. So what is the reason, what is the cause, why baseness & excellence are seen among human beings, among the human race?"

"Students, beings are owners of kamma, heir to kamma, born of kamma, related through kamma, and have kamma as their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in terms of coarseness & refinement."

"I don't understand the detailed meaning of Master Gotama's statement spoken in brief without explaining the detailed meaning. It would be good if Master Gotama taught me the Dhamma so that I might understand the detailed meaning of his brief statement."

"In that case, student, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, Master Gotama," Subha the student responded.

The Blessed One said: "There is the case, student, where a woman or man is a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell. If, on the break-up of the body, after death — instead of reappearing in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, hell — he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is short-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a short life: to be a killer of living beings, brutal, bloody-handed, given to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man, having abandoned the killing of living beings, abstains from killing living beings, and dwells with the rod laid down, the knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, & sympathetic for the welfare of all living beings. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination, in the heavenly world. If, on the break-up of the body, after death — instead of reappearing in a good destination, in the heavenly world — he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is long-lived wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a long life: to have abandoned the killing of living beings, to abstain from killing living beings, to dwell with one's rod laid down, one's knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, & sympathetic for the welfare of all living beings.

"There is the case where a woman or man is one who harms beings with his/her fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is sickly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to sickliness: to be one who harms beings with one's fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man is not one who harms beings with his/her fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is healthy wherever reborn. This is the way leading to health: not to be one who harms beings with one's fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives.

"There is the case, where a woman or man is ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, he/she grows offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; shows annoyance, aversion, & bitterness. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is ugly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to ugliness: to be ill-tempered & easily upset; even when lightly criticized, to grow offended, provoked, malicious, & resentful; to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man is not ill-tempered or easily upset; even when heavily criticized, he/she doesn't grow offended, provoked, malicious, or resentful; doesn't show annoyance, aversion, or bitterness. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is beautiful wherever reborn. This is the way leading to beauty: not to be ill-tempered or easily upset; even when heavily criticized, not to be offended, provoked, malicious, or resentful; nor to show annoyance, aversion, & bitterness.

"There is the case where a woman or man is envious. He/she envies, begrudges, & broods about others' gains, honor, respect, reverence, salutations, & veneration. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is not influential wherever reborn. This is the way leading to not being influential: to be envious, to envy, begrudge, & brood about others' gains, honor, respect, reverence, salutations, & veneration.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man is not envious. He/she does not envy, begrudge, or brood about others' gains, honor, respect, reverence, salutations, or veneration. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, he/she is influential wherever reborn. This is the way leading to being influential: not to be envious; not to envy, begrudge, or brood about others' gains, honor, respect, reverence, salutations, or veneration.

"There is the case where a woman or man is not a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lighting to priests or contemplatives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, he/she is poor wherever reborn. This is the way leading to poverty: not to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lighting to priests or contemplatives.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man is a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, & lighting to priests & contemplatives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is wealthy wherever reborn. This is the way leading to great wealth: to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, & lighting to priests & contemplatives.

"There is the case where a woman or man is obstinate & arrogant. He/she does not pay homage to those who deserve homage, rise up for those for whom one should rise up, give a seat to those to whom one should give a seat, make way for those for whom one should make way, worship those who should be worshipped, respect those who should be respected, revere those who should be revered, or honor those who should be honored. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is low-born wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a low birth: to be obstinate & arrogant, not to pay homage to those who deserve homage, nor rise up for... nor give a seat to... nor make way for... nor worship... nor respect... nor revere... nor honor those who should be honored.

"But then there is the case where a woman or man is not obstinate or arrogant; he/she pays homage to those who deserve homage, rises up... gives a seat... makes way... worships... respects... reveres... honors those who should be honored. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is highborn wherever reborn. This is the way leading to a high birth: not to obstinate or arrogant; to pay homage to those who deserve homage, to rise up... give a seat... make way... worship... respect... revere... honor those who should be honored.

"There is the case where a woman or man when visiting a priest or contemplative, does not ask: 'What is skillful, venerable sir? What is unskillful? What is blameworthy? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, having been done by me, will be for my long-term harm & suffering? Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she will be stupid wherever reborn. This is the way leading to stupidity: when visiting a priest or contemplative, not to ask: 'What is skillful?... Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?'

"But then there is the case where a woman or man when visiting a priest or contemplative, asks: 'What is skillful, venerable sir? What is unskillful? What is blameworthy? What is blameless? What should be cultivated? What should not be cultivated? What, having been done by me, will be for my long-term harm & suffering? Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good destination... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is discerning wherever reborn. This is the way leading to discernment: when visiting a priest or contemplative, to ask: 'What is skillful?... Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & happiness?'

"So, student, the way leading to short life makes people short-lived, the way leading to long life makes people long-lived; the way leading to sickliness makes people sickly, the way leading to health makes people healthy; the way leading to ugliness makes people ugly, the way leading to beauty makes people beautiful; the way leading to lack of influence makes people uninfluential, the way leading to influence makes people influential; the way leading to poverty makes people poor, the way leading to wealth makes people wealthy; the way leading to low birth makes people low-born, the way leading to high birth makes people highborn; the way leading to stupidity makes people stupid, the way leading to discernment makes people discerning.

Beings are owners of kamma, heir to kamma, born of kamma, related through kamma, and have kamma as their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in terms of coarseness & refinement....

When this was said, Subha the student, Todeyya's son, said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 18th, 2011 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: DC Kalachakra 2011
Content:
kirtu said:
Kalacakra suprises



Malcolm wrote:
There were some other surprises as well.

Apart from the Namgyal monks, etc., on the stage, all the ordained people were required to sit behind lay people.

Mr Kalden Lodoe, the event organizer, had the president of the Tibetan Youth Congress, Tsewang Rigzin, physically expelled from the venue. See:

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=29752&article=TYC+demands+apology +(Updated" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

It seems the organizers made this one of the least non-sectarian Kalacakras in many years, at least this was the impression conveyed to me by a Tibetan monastic in attendance at the event.

Other masters who have traditionally assisted HHDL with Kalacakra were not invited to attend this year, for example, HHST.

This Kalacakra has emerged as one which marks tumultuous events in the exile Tibetan Community. Tibetans on web forums such as Phayul are spitting mad about what happened to Tsewang Rigzin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Unknown said:
Serenity509: With an infinite amount of time, won't nirvana happen eventually? How is the person then able to recall a past life?


Malcolm wrote:
Without following the path, no. Nirvana will never happen on its own. Nirvana requires discriminating insight which uproots afflictive emotions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Namdrol said:
First you are able to recall your own past lives, then eventually, you can know the minds of others and also see into their past lives.

Serenity509 said:
What is the evidence of this, of one being before the other?

Malcolm wrote:
The evidence of course, is all anecdotal. Nothing you can empirically test.

Normally however, they appear in a list that is not ordered or ranked.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Animal By-products & Karmic Debts
Content:
Dexing said:
Is there an extant Sanskrit version of it?


Malcolm wrote:
There are two Surangama samadhi sutras. One was composed in India, and was among the first sutras translated into Chinese. This one that you are citing from was composed in China in around the eighth century.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Namdrol said:
If one develops sufficient powers of samadhi, one can also examine other people's minds and see into their past lives as well.

N

Serenity509 said:
Like I asked before, how do you know then if you are examining your own past life instead of someone else's?

Malcolm wrote:
Knowledge of other people minds is a more developed type of clairvoyance that recall of one's past lives. First you are able to recall your own past lives, then eventually, you can know the minds of others and also see into their past lives.

This is all predicated on skill in samadhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
Title: Re: Animal By-products & Karmic Debts
Content:
Dexing said:
Several months ago in the http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3474&p=31274&hilit=connection+with+the+animal#p31274 thread I raised this question:
Where is it taught the use of animal products, and likewise meat-eating, creates a karmic connection with the animals in intentionally using their bodies to fulfill your "needs"? This may not be the karma of killing, but it creates a debt that must be repaid to them, which may result in rebirth as a service animal— a cow or such that is worked and exploited for milk and eventually meat, clothing, etc.— to rectify the outstanding balance due them.
To this Namdrol replied;
By the time the remains of an animal wind up on your plate, their consciousness is long gone, reborn. This is one of the reasons why Bhavaviveka rejects the idea that meat eating is necessarily bad karma. The meat on your plate, from his perspective, is inert.

It is hard to prove this karmic debt exists, through it is a popular idea.
I have come across the source text again that makes this statement on creating relationships with animals by using their by-products. It is in the Śūraṅgama Sūtra on the Four Clear and Decisive Instructions on Purity - killing.
"Bhikshus who do not wear silk, leather boots, furs, or down, whether imported or found locally, and who do not consume milk, cream, or butter, can truly transcend this world. When they have paid back their past debts, they will not have to re-enter the Triple Realm. Why not? When someone wears anything taken from a living creature, he creates relationships with the creature, just as when people ate the hundred grains, their feet could not leave the earth. Both physically and mentally one must avoid the bodies and the by-products of beings, by neither wearing them nor eating them. I say that such people have true liberation. What I have said here is the Buddhas' teaching. Any explanation counter to it is the teaching of Papiyan(demon king)."

Malcolm wrote:
I assume this the Chinese Surangama and not the Indian one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 12:50 PM
Title: Re: affirming mind in an intellectual climate of materialism
Content:


coldmountain said:
Anyone have any advice for a fellow sojourner trying to navigate the maze that is the philosophy of mind with the simple aim of maintaining a spiritual practice?

Mike


Malcolm wrote:
Study Abhidharma.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 12:49 PM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:


Serenity509 said:
How is the person then able to recall a past life?

Malcolm wrote:
Your question implies you believe there must be something real or ultimate to convey memories from instant a to instant b.

I answered your question above.

The serial moments of a mind stream carries past impressions. Under the power of samadhi these impressions will unlock one's pastlife experiences.

If one develops sufficient powers of samadhi, one can also examine other people's minds and see into their past lives as well.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 12:34 PM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:


Enochian said:
Yes but according to every level of buddhism, you need to have something called the divya caksus to have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with rebirth.

Huseng said:
Not necessarily. With sufficient mastery of dhyāna one will recollect past lives.


Enochian said:
The divya caksus IS used from within dhyāna, the fourth dhyāna to be exact.

My whole point is though is that one cannot have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with rebirth unless one has these abilities.

Malcolm wrote:
The divine has to do with seeing gods, not recalling past lives.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 12:33 PM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
How can one recall the memories of past lives if there is no enduring self?


Malcolm wrote:
A given stream of consciousness composed of a unique series of moments which are neither the same as nor different from one another. Therefore, memories, thoughts, and so on can be communicated down this unique mind stream without this mind stream bearing a real intrinsic identity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 12:12 PM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
I think this is relevant to almost any discussion we have:


Namdrol said:
Buddhism is not a "invent it was we go along" type of religion.

Also, insisting on the vital role rebirth plays in Buddha's teaching is not the same thing as speculatively insisting that one's own views are correct where everyone else's are wrong.

N

Serenity509 said:
Did Buddha say think and discover for yourself or accept his teaching based on hearsay?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddha said that one must hear the teachings, reflect on their meaning, and meditate upon them.

But that does not mean that Buddha did not set out the path and the nature of consciousness, and so on in a very precise and detailed way. He drew the map, it is up to those who wish to follow it.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 11:52 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
I think this is relevant to almost any discussion we have:


Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism is not a "invent it was we go along" type of religion.

Also, insisting on the vital role rebirth plays in Buddha's teaching is not the same thing as speculatively insisting that one's own views are correct where everyone else's are wrong.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 11:10 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa is not knowledge of emptiness
Content:
xabir said:
Sorry a noob question (if this has been discussed before please point out).

If Dzogchen does not admit the two truths, how does it explain dependent arising?

Malcolm wrote:
Relative truth is not true.

But even Nāgārjuna rejects the two truths:

"Since the Jina proclaims that nirvana alone is true,
what wise person would not reject the rest as false?"

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 10:56 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Namdrol said:
But that is not Buddhism. Buddhism is predicated on the goal of ending rebirth in samsara through the eradication of the three poisons, desire, hatred and confusion, which arise because of ignorance.

Serenity509 said:
Is this true? -
In Buddhism the concept of liberation is Nirvana. It is referred to as "the highest happiness" and is the goal of the Theravada-Buddhist path, while in the Mahayana it is seen as a secondary effect of becoming a fully enlightened Buddha (Samyaksambuddha).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha#Buddhism " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Malcolm wrote:
In order to become a fully awakened Buddha one must eradicated the three poisons caused by ignorance which result in rebirth in samsara.

There are two obscurations, the afflictive obscuration caused by the three poisons, and the knowledge obscuration. To attain the result that is the desiderate of Theravada, one must only remove the first. From a Mahāyāna perspective, one must remove both completely in order to become a Buddha.

But in both cases, it is necessary to cease having rebirth in samsara.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
Whether or not you believe in it, why not look at reincarnation as a net positive? Why not appreciate the journey?

Malcolm wrote:
Rebirth happens because our minds are tainted with three poisons.



Serenity509 said:
As a Westerner, I have trouble believing in any concept of the afterlife without sufficient evidence.

Malcolm wrote:
That's fine but that is not the point.

The point is that Buddha not only taught rebirth, but he defined the four types of awakened people [stream entrants, once returners, never returners and arhats] by how many rebirths they had remaining before they would achieve nirvana.

It is true that he did not equate worldly happiness with belief in rebirth, since there were plenty of people in India during his day who also did not believe in rebirth. That is why he taught the brahmaviharas to lay people. The practice of them guarantees mental happiness whether one should accept rebirth or not.

But that is not Buddhism. Buddhism is predicated on the goal of ending rebirth in samsara through the eradication of the three poisons, desire, hatred and confusion, which arise because of ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 9:35 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are many so called "Buddhists" who pervert the Dharma for their own ends.

Rebirth is not an option in Buddhism, despite what some deluded fools might think.

Serenity509 said:
There is no question that many Buddhists, East and West, continue to believe in individual reincarnation. Parables from the sutras and "teaching aids" like the Tibetan Wheel of Life tend to reinforce this belief.

The Rev. Takashi Tsuji, a Jodo Shinshu priest, wrote about belief in reincarnation:

"It is said that the Buddha left 84,000 teachings; the symbolic figure represents the diverse backgrounds characteristics, tastes, etc. of the people. The Buddha taught according to the mental and spiritual capacity of each individual. For the simple village folks living during the time of the Buddha, the doctrine of reincarnation was a powerful moral lesson. Fear of birth into the animal world must have frightened many people from acting like animals in this life. If we take this teaching literally today we are confused because we cannot understand it rationally.

"...A parable, when taken literally, does not make sense to the modern mind. Therefore we must learn to differentiate the parables and myths from actuality."

What's the Point?

People often turn to religion for doctrines that provide simple answers to difficult questions. Buddhism doesn't work that way. Merely believing in some doctrine about reincarnation or rebirth has no purpose. Buddhism is a practice that enables experiencing illusion as illusion and reality as reality.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/karmaandrebirth/a/reincarnation.htm " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 9:29 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
Shin Buddhists

Malcolm wrote:
"The bodhisattva who established the vow to liberate all sentient beings in the universe through the utterance of his name and who became Amida Buddha through its fulfillment. The Primal Vow and the aeons of religious practice that was necessary for its fulfillment are, strictly speaking, those of Bodhisattva Dharmakara."

Without rebirth, there would have been no Amitabha.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 9:16 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
One does not have to believe in rebirth in order to follow the teachings of the dharma.


Malcolm wrote:
There is no point in following Buddhadharma if you do not accept rebirth.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 9:15 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
While I do not believe in reincarnation...

Namdrol said:
Then Buddhism is definitely not for you.

Serenity509 said:
If there is no other world and there is no fruit and ripening of actions well done or ill done, then here and now in this life I shall be free from hostility, affliction, and anxiety, and I shall live happily. - Siddhārtha Gautama

Malcolm wrote:
He was not teaching the Kalamas transcendent Dharma. He was teaching them the worldly dharma of the four brahma viharas.

As I said, if you don't believe in rebirth, Buddhist Dharma is not for you.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 8:17 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
platypus said:
I see the dharmakaya explained as where all buddhas emanate from like a ground of being...

Namdrol said:
Buddhism does not propose a truly existent ground of being.

platypus said:
So all dharmas do not arise from dharmakaya?

Malcolm wrote:
No, they do not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 8:17 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:



Namdrol said:
That is a contradiction in terms -- from what causes and conditions would such a ground of being originate?

Buddhist logic on this is airtight. There is nothing in the universe that is not dependently originated. Whatever is dependently originated is free from the extremes of existence and non-existence. Since there are no beings in a dependently originated universe, there also no ground of being. What is the use of a ground of being if there are no beings for which it is purported to be a ground?

N

platypus said:
that's what advaita says too, that jiva are ultimately one with brahman and simply maya.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no jiva, from a Buddhist POV. Nor is there Brahmin.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 8:16 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation: A gift or a curse?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
While I do not believe in reincarnation...

Malcolm wrote:
Then Buddhism is definitely not for you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Lung disease unique to Vajrayana?
Content:
Jinzang said:
Rlung disorders do not just happen to pranayama practitioners. Hakuin is a famous example of Zen practitioner who developed a rlung disorder as a result of his strenuous meditation. He describes it in his autobiography, Wild Ivy, and how he was taught a meditation to cure it by a cave dwelling ascetic.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, vatta disorders can be caused by straining too hard in meditation, thinking too much, not getting enough sleep, too much sex, all kinds of things.

Classically, however, prāṇayāma practitioners are at a much higher risk for vatta disorders than other people.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
platypus said:
I see the dharmakaya explained as where all buddhas emanate from like a ground of being...

Namdrol said:
Buddhism does not propose a truly existent ground of being.


Enochian said:
What about a dependently originated ground of being?


Malcolm wrote:
That is a contradiction in terms -- from what causes and conditions would such a ground of being originate?

Buddhist logic on this is airtight. There is nothing in the universe that is not dependently originated. Whatever is dependently originated is free from the extremes of existence and non-existence. Since there are no beings in a dependently originated universe, there also no ground of being. What is the use of a ground of being if there are no beings for which it is purported to be a ground?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: "Ego" and Buddhism
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Language is not a fixed thing. It is a constantly changing, ever-redefining process of communication.
Most words undergo a series of rebirths, taking on a variety of meanings until sometimes their original meaning is lost.
This is very common in all languages. it is just the way words are.


Malcolm wrote:
For example, "dashboard".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
platypus said:
I see the dharmakaya explained as where all buddhas emanate from like a ground of being...

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism does not propose a truly existent ground of being.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
Namdrol said:
... Societies are biological entities that use all available resources until they are exhausted. Then they die and something else comes along to feed off of the corpse. ...

Inge said:
Do they have an identity, a sense of "I"?

Malcolm wrote:
No more than a plant does.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Dynamic of being
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Erik Pema Kunsangs translation is basically the same...

"The ground of self-existing awareness is like a sphere of crystal,
The emptiness of the crystal sphere is the nature of dharmakaya,
Its natural expression of clarity is sambhogakaya,
Its unobstructed basis for manifestation is nirmanakaya."


Malcolm wrote:
Dowmans is basically a rewrite of Eric's.

My translation is a little different:

"The basis, one’s vidyā, is like a crystal ball;
its emptiness is the nature of the dharmakāya;
its self-revealing clarity is the sambhogakāya;
and the door of unceasing arising is the nirmanakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Expulsion for raped Buddhist nun ?!?
Content:


Lazy_eye said:
Is this a standard interpretation of the rules in Vajrayana...

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 17th, 2011 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Enochian said:
Namdrol,

Would you admit that everything is "connected"?

Malcolm wrote:
Everything is a condition for everything but itself.

Since the Buddhas have realized the nature of reality which pervades everything, theoretically, there are no limits to what a Buddha can know. If something can be known by a consciousness, it can be known by a Buddha .

The subject of the omniscience of a Buddha is quite complicated.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Schizophrenia
Content:
The Ticking Man said:
Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
Incidentally, my real name is Malcolm, when you talk to them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Schizophrenia
Content:
The Ticking Man said:
Would seeing a doctor of Tibetan medicine be worthwhile?  The one that might be willing to do it lives in Boulder, CO.  I saw a few DTMs in that area on the internet.  Can you recommend a practitioner from that area?

I think he has been taking anti-psychotics on and off for 15 years, but that is a guesstimate.  I would need to ask him.

Malcolm wrote:
Check out these two people:

http://holistic-health.org/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I went to school with Nashalla.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: Schizophrenia
Content:
The Ticking Man said:
I have recently been reading The Crystal and the Way of Light.  In the book, ChNN says that his uncle was cured of his mental illness by following practices that were prescribed by Adzom Drugpa.

Does anyone know what practices were prescribed?  It is implied in the book that one of the practices was Chod.

I ask this because I have two friends that suffer from schizophrenia.  One was drug induced and the other I am not sure about.  Can schizophrenia be truly treated through Tibetan medicine or Tibetan practices.

Thank you in advance for your reply.


Malcolm wrote:
That depends on the patient, how long they have been using antipsychotics and a whole host of other factors. So the correct answer is maybe.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:


kirtu said:
Americans are not nearly as individualistic as they believe although it is part of the national myth.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends very much where you live in America. You live in the South (Yes, Virginia is part of the South, so is Maryland ). Southerners and Midwesterners tend to be more socially conforming and class conscious that Yankees and Westerners.

kirtu said:
It's very funny seeing American's claim the "Don't Tread On Me" line while actually in general being hyperconservative and being afraid to take action individually

Malcolm wrote:
Don't confuse lack of media reportage for absence of direct action. Again, that really depends on where you live. You live in the DC area, which is hyper-conservative compared to where I have lived all my life i.e. Massachusetts and Vermont.

Also there is an urban/rural difference. American individualism was/is based on American rural culture -- it is true that economic pressures have lead to a severe decline in rural America.

Urban Americans have always been more conformist. Rural Southerners are also more independent minded than their city cousins.

Most of the race laws in the South were passed to drive a social wedge between poor whites and poor blacks to keep rich whites rich.

As far as the gay personhood thing goes, don't worry eventually civil rights laws will make their way through the courts and gay people will be entitled to spousal privileges like anyone else. It is happening. Feminism, gay rights, etc. are all born of the civil rights movement, ultimately.


kirtu said:
BTW this is not me ragging on America's - these tendencies actually exist in the culture and are pervasive.  And both the belonging need /clique behavior AND criticizing people for how they dress is explained through it.

Malcolm wrote:
Most of the political issues in this country are a hang-over from the Civil war.

kirtu said:
We still have a long way to go before becoming a less harmful and more helpful society.

Malcolm wrote:
That is samsara. There is no such thing as a "helpful" society. Societies are biological entities that use all available resources until they are exhausted. Then they die and something else comes along to feed off of the corpse.

But as you know, I do not share your utopian idealism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:


Namdrol said:
I've never seen an American walk around with one of those.

Jikan said:
Ever been to Portland?

I've been jabbed in the ribs on the subway with more than one of these sorts of bags on the metro in DC lately.  Something must be going on downtown to bring the Buddhists who can afford to accessorize in.

Malcolm wrote:
Never been to Portland, OR.

I am sure the accessorized Buddhists are out in full force in DC.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:


Namdrol said:
Many people these days in Zen understand terms like "One Mind" exactly in the same sense as Advaita. Which is why we see cross-over teachers like Adyashanti and so on.


Enochian said:
How is this different than what you said about all Buddhas sharing the same one mind?

Also, since according to Mādhyamaka philosophy, there is actually NO difference between a Buddha and a sentient being, wouldn't EVERYONE share the same one mind?


Malcolm wrote:
As for your first question: all Buddhas share the same realization. In this sense they "share" the same mind. The wisdom of a Buddha is free from being one or many. Since the dharmakāya is free from all extremes, it does not make sense to assert that Buddhas have differentiated mind streams. Their omniscience is identical because, to put it into relative terms, their minds and the object of their realization, emptiness free from extremes, have merged since Buddhas are in a constant state of equipoise on reality.

In terms of Madhyamaka, Buddhas and sentient beings are the same in so far as neither are ultimately established. Conventionally speaking, however, sentient beings have not abandoned everything to be abandoned and realized everything to be realized, but Buddhas have. That constitutes the difference between buddhas and sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 8:23 PM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
Namdrol said:
Funny thing is, a lot of Americans probably regard their dharma gear as a sign of their individualism, whereas in its Asian context, it has the opposite meaning.
=

Huseng said:
Have you ever seen any native in India, Nepal, Tibet, Bhutan, Mongolia, etc... walk around with one of these?


Malcolm wrote:
I've never seen an American walk around with one of those.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 12:12 PM
Title: Re: buddhist hinduism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 12:08 PM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
Namdrol said:
Because we Westerners, especially we Americans, are pathologically individualistic. Asians tend not to be, they are culturally more group and class oriented, pathologically so.

Huseng said:
I dunno ... I think most Canadians unconsciously follow a set pattern of behaviour and abide by the status quo.


Malcolm wrote:
You know, I did write a clause in brackets that said (Canadians are not included under the rubric of Americans...). Thought better of it and deleted it.

Funny thing is, a lot of Americans probably regard their dharma gear as a sign of their individualism, whereas in its Asian context, it has the opposite meaning.
=


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: "Ego" and Buddhism
Content:
Greg said:
Very helpful all, thanks.

However, even if we allow that "ego" could be a reasonable term for "self-grasping," I'm still seeing an issue with the quotes. Suppose we substitute "self-grasping" for ego as follows:

"In the third stage, self-grasping develops three strategies or impulses with which to relate to its projections: indifference, passion and aggression."(The Myth of Freedom)

"The problem is that self-grasping can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality."(Cutting through Spiritual Materialism, pg 15)

To me, they don't make a whole lot of sense now. How can an action/process--a present participle verb, if I'm not mistaken--scheme, strategize and make projections, as described above? In other words, how can a verb be the subject of another verb?

Namdrol said:
Do you understand what Trungpa is saying (I assume that you do). If so, then just chalk it up to a non-native speaker with an amateur editor and get the gist.

N

Greg said:
Well, I understand that self-grasping is said to be a problem for all sorts of reasons. But I'm not convinced this is just a matter of mistaken grammar. His use of ego seems to suggest something other than a process, it seems to suggest some sort of active, diabolical agent at work. Now I have a sense that that was his own spin on it, for better or for worse.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in Indian and Tibetan literature, "grasping at identity" is, in this case, an active, diabolical agent. In Sanskrit and Tibetan "self-grasping" can be a noun subject of a sentence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Commitment Issues
Content:
Clarence said:
Are you talking deity differences here or Lam Dre vs. 6 Yogas vs Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Practice what you have instructions for, and that for which you have a predilection. Lamdre, 6 Yogas, and Dzogchen have slightly different toppings. But basically the practice is all the same.


Clarence said:
I think you are spot on here. Any suggestions on how to best proceed?

Malcolm wrote:
Visit many of them.

Clarence said:
Would you mind elaborating on that? I don't understand it at all. Wouldn't you practice what the root Guru tells you to practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Most people have this idea that their root guru is the one who gives them their main practice. That is not true. The root guru is the one who gives someone their understanding of the nature of their mind, which is what makes all practices fruitional.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
pemachophel said:
Part of why I posted my query was wondering why so many Westerners (at least in my experience) seem to reject the notion of wearing such costumes.

Malcolm wrote:
Because we Westerners, especially we Americans, are pathologically individualistic. Asians tend not to be, they are culturally more group and class oriented, pathologically so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 16th, 2011 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: "Ego" and Buddhism
Content:
Greg said:
Very helpful all, thanks.

However, even if we allow that "ego" could be a reasonable term for "self-grasping," I'm still seeing an issue with the quotes. Suppose we substitute "self-grasping" for ego as follows:

"In the third stage, self-grasping develops three strategies or impulses with which to relate to its projections: indifference, passion and aggression."(The Myth of Freedom)

"The problem is that self-grasping can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality."(Cutting through Spiritual Materialism, pg 15)

To me, they don't make a whole lot of sense now. How can an action/process--a present participle verb, if I'm not mistaken--scheme, strategize and make projections, as described above? In other words, how can a verb be the subject of another verb?

Malcolm wrote:
Do you understand what Trungpa is saying (I assume that you do). If so, then just chalk it up to a non-native speaker with an amateur editor and get the gist.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 15th, 2011 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Commitment Issues
Content:
pemachophel said:
Clarence,

If you want to stick with Longchen Nyingthig, consider Loppon Rechung at Mipham Shedra in Boulder, CO or Anyen Rinpoche in Denver, CO. Both are resident in the U.S. and work with Their students on an on-going day-to-day basis. If you don't mind switching to Dudjom Tersar, consider Lama Pema Dorje in Oakland, CA or His brother, Lama Dawa, in Lansing, Iowa (see http://www.saraswatibhawan.org " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Both also are resident in the U.S. If Bhutanese Drukpa is not a deal-breaker, consider Lama Karma at Mila Druk in Longmont, CO; again resident in the U.S. Then there's Loppon Jigme, Chatral Rinpoche's disciple in Marin county, CA (I don't remember the exact town), or there's Tulku Jigme Tromge at the Padmasambhava Peace Institute in Cazadero, CA. Bhaka Tulku is not personally teaching anymore (or so I've heard), but He has a couple of Tibetan disciples teaching in the SoCal area. Another good Nyingma Lama (Longchen Nyingthig & Dudjom Tersar) is Khenpo Sonam in Santa Monica, CA. If being a gringo is no problemo, there's Tulku Sherab Dorje in upstate NY (the Catskills) and Lama Rangbar who's soon moving to nearby Poughkipsie (spelling?). Of course, Tulku Sang-ngak is excellent. He lives in Santa Fe, NM. However, he's out of the country approximately half of each year (or at least he has been the last couple-few years).

Just a few Lamas who come to mind Who live in the U.S. and are very accessible to Their students on an on-going basis.

Good luck and best wishes.

Clarence said:
HI Pema Chophel,

Many thanks for that. It is nice to see such a big list of Nyingma teachers. Unfortunately, at the moment, I am living in Europe. So, although some of your suggestions sound great, I don't think they are feasible at this moment. Of course, I could travel regularly to the U.S., but I would hope to find someone closer to Belgium/Netherlands.
Many thanks again. Sorry I can't follow up on your suggestions.

- C


Malcolm wrote:
Basically, you are not going to find any differences between one practice and another, not really. Tibetan Buddhism these days is like Baskin Robbins, 31 flavors, but they all ice cream.

Forget about lineages and find a _guru_.

And keep in mind that often your root Guru may be in a completely different lineage than the one you actually practice in.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 15th, 2011 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Lung disease unique to Vajrayana?
Content:
Jangchup Donden said:
Is lung disease unique to the Vajrayana, or does it also happen in other meditative traditions?

Malcolm wrote:
rlung disease (vatta disorders) can happen to anyone, given improper diet, behavior, etc. Vatta disorders are more likely to occur in the early summer and the late fall, they are more likely to show their symptoms in the early morning and late afternoon.

People who engage in intense pranayāma practice are more at risk for these kinds of illnesses. Yantra Yoga and Hatha yoga are important for correct faults that come from mistakes made in completion stage practices.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 15th, 2011 at 8:20 PM
Title: Re: "Ego" and Buddhism
Content:
tobes said:
I think it is extremely misleading, and should be abandoned.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed.

tobes said:
I think that is the sense in which Trungpa uses the term, and it is somewhat helpful.......but ultimately I think that using the term in that way simply leads to a reification of something which in every respect, never existed in the first place: there is no ego, in any of the senses I've just mentioned, so what point is there speaking as if there is?

Malcolm wrote:
Ego simply means 'I' in Greek and Latin. However, we use it in English as a term derived from Freudian analysis (primarily). In this respect, this use of the term does not exist in Buddhism. In Buddhism, (as you note) there is no concept like the Western psychoanalytical personality per se -- only a sense of a mundane person or a transcending person, a virtuous person or a non-virtous person, driven by positive, negative or afflicted mental factors. There is no idea of a balanced personality, per se, apart from a person in good health whose dhātus (vatta, pitta, kapha) are well balanced.

However, all people are egoistic, since we all have our self-interest at heart, and atma-graha and bdag 'dzin can easily be translated as "egoism". Egotism, is mostly what Buddhist texts means by "pride".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 15th, 2011 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
pemachophel said:
Thanks for the replies. I'm sorry the words "Dharma clothes" seemed wrong to some. I usually reserve the word "robes" for monks' and nuns' robes and I was thinking of the shamgyur and zens worn at many Nyingma centers in the U.S. and abroad by non-monastic practitioners. I was just curious to see what people's ideas about these are. Like everything else, there are a variety of opinions.


Malcolm wrote:
No need to apologize, some people like costumes.


Tibetans tend to think their costumes give them some juice. For example, you can read in some terma cycles that you should never be naked -- with elaborate and necessary clothing described. Yet when you read Indian cycles, you are supposed to give tormas naked. Then you have guys like Tsnang Nyon who like to dress in blood and entrails.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 14th, 2011 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: Destroying ancient Buddhist shrine for copper mine.
Content:
Huseng said:
This upset me reading it. They're going to destroy an ancient Buddhist temple to get at the copper. Firstly they destroy a jewel in humanity's history and then they're going to cause untold environmental damage with such a mine. They're converting a holy site into what will be a toxic hell hole.

Also given the amount of corruption that probably exists in Afghanistan, do you think much of the concession money will benefit the people?


Malcolm wrote:
As I said, Samsara does not get worse, we merely become more sensitive to it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 14th, 2011 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Vimalamitra's semde pills
Content:
Hayagriva said:
Thanks for the help, loppon.
One if its main uses is for disorders of the prana vāyu which often results in cycling depression.
This seems to be the main purpose looking at internet TB medicine stores, although they may obviously not be very accurate or complete. I genuinely don't feel depressed at all (quite the opposite in fact) but maybe I looked miserable to the lama that I talked to. I was absolutely exhausted.
If you have trouble with rlung/vatta, one of the best treatments you can have is massage, especially ayurvedic massage with the proper oil. Also your diet should have a moderate amount of lamb, you should regularly take small quantity of ghee, avoid all caffeine, etc. Follow a diet and behavior for vatta person.
I have some serious lung problems, with my body feeling tight and unpleasently quick and jumpy a lot of the time. A neurologist I don't particularly have a lot of confidence in thinks I may have a minor genetic startle reaction disorder. I think it's more like the after effects of problems I had with anxiety in the past that have imprinted themselves on my nervous system. I don't feel emotionally unwell at all - by which I mean unhappy or over-stressed. Will the medication I have work on this?

I will certainly look at your diet/massage recommendation.

Thanks again.


Malcolm wrote:
The main use for a medicine does not obviate its uses in other conditions. The semde will work on the condition you describe, but herbs work much better in conjunction with therapies, diet and behavior. Yoga should also help.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 14th, 2011 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Vimalamitra's semde pills
Content:
Hayagriva said:
I spent quite a lot of time with a Tibetan lama this week who recommended that I take some specific Tibetan medicine - he said it was a recipe created by Vimalamitra and is called semde. There are two types, and these are in the photo attached.

Can anyone tell me what they are and what they're used for? I know they're meant to be good for lung disorders, which I have real trouble with. I'm going to be interested in what they are like - I've never taken Tibetan medicine before.

A good UK/European supplier would be welcome, too.


Malcolm wrote:
Vimalamitra did not create sems bde. He created a formula which is popularly called "Vimala".

sems dbe occurs in 18th century Treasury of Beneficial Jewels by the eastern Tibetan doctor, karma nges legs bstan 'dzin phrin las rab rgyas. So it is a relatively recent formula.

One if its main uses is for disorders of the prana vāyu which often results in cycling depression.

Vimala (Nutmeg 25) on the other hand is a medicine also used for vātta disorders, but mainly for sleep disorders. Vimala was originally created by Vimalamitra to combat provocations by Gyalpos.

If you have trouble with rlung/vatta, one of the best treatments you can have is massage, especially ayurvedic massage with the proper oil. Also your diet should have a moderate amount of lamb, you should regularly take small quantity of ghee, avoid all caffeine, etc. Follow a diet and behavior for vatta person.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 14th, 2011 at 12:10 PM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 14th, 2011 at 11:53 AM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
username said:
The best is probably that of a simple loosely clad wandering hermit who is indistinguishable from his surroundings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 14th, 2011 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
alpha said:
there is no beauty in lay people in the west wearing wrap around type of cloths .
is just pure arrogance.

Nangwa said:
If I could get away with it I would wear one of those skirts all the time.
It would have nothing to do with dharma whatsoever. It would be all about airflow.

Malcolm wrote:
You can, its called a dhoti:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 14th, 2011 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: Views on Dharma clothes
Content:
conebeckham said:
Are you talking about robes?

In my experience, every Dharma Center with Tibetan roots has a different position on this issue.  Some Nyingma centers practically require all participants to wear them during some rituals.  Some only allow Lamas, monks, and nuns, to wear them.  Some are more flexible.

In my center, monks wear Shamtab, Zen, etc.  all the time.  Lamas usually wear Shamtab, or a Shamgyur (wrap-around skirt-type thing) and zens....striped zens for Western three year retreat graduates, solids otherwise...though Tibetan Lamas usually wear solids.  Some of us wear Shamgyurs, etc., during Druppas or retreats, but may not always.


Malcolm wrote:
Calling these things dharma clothes is a bit of a stretch. These things are Tibetan custom.

In reality, there are only two kinds of clothes that can be called Dharma" clothes i.e. white clothes for lay people, and dyed robes for monks. To this one might add blue shirts for Vajrayāna practitioners.

The rest is all based on custom.

Apart from this however, are articles of samaya connected with empowerments that one may be asked to maintain. These are also not "dharma clothes".

"Honey? Where did I leave my bone ornaments...?"

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 13th, 2011 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss
Content:



Huseng said:
I'm starting to seriously examine the literature of tantra after spending several years grounding myself in sūtra, abhidharma and Mahāyāna śāstras. I've had exposure to it before, but found I could not wrap my mind around it or appreciate it. Now I'm re-examining the material and thinking that it might very well be an advanced form of practice as it claims.

Malcolm wrote:
The fundamental reason Vajrayāna stakes a claim to rapidity is method. Those methods corral a person's embodiment and experience into practice in ways that sutra does not. Sutra is entirely a path of renunciation. Vajrayāna is a path of non-renunciation.


Huseng said:
I'm trying to understand why a non-conceptual samadhi would be better suited to realizing emptiness than conventional dhyāna.


Malcolm wrote:
That is simple enough -- a conventional dhyana is conceptual. The realization of emptiness is non-conceptual. The more direct route one has to a repeatable experience of non-conceptuality, the easier it is to realize emptiness non-conceptually. Shamatha practice always possesses concepts. Shamatha is a conceptual meditation. Sutrayāna vipashyana, below the path of seeing is also conceptual. Sutra does not possess any methods to approximate the experience of non-conceptual emptiness. Vajrayāna does.


Huseng said:
The claim, though, that I'm trying to understand is that the nirvikalpa samādhi achieved in tantra is superior to the one achieved through conventional dhyāna.

Malcolm wrote:
It is easier train in the experience of non-conceptuality in Vajrayāna. Sutra has no specific methods to train in non-conceptuality, and one should not train in nirvikalpa samādhi below the path of seeing in Mahāyāna.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 13th, 2011 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss
Content:
Astus said:
Vitarka and vicāra don't exist in the 2nd dhyāna already, how could then it be called conceptual? Nirvikalpa-jñāna also exists in common Mahayana.


Malcolm wrote:
Because it's one pointedness is a mental concept.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 13th, 2011 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss
Content:
Huseng said:
Thank you for taking the time to answer my many questions, Namdrol.

Namdrol said:
Plus, you have to understand, that this experience is what is introduced during empowerment, and further, since the channels have been purified, the movements of winds are more subtle; and hence the mind is more subtle; hence the emptiness realization is more profound and more rapid.

Huseng said:
Is this why Buddhahood is said to be immediately possible in a lifetime in tantra? By virtue of the emptiness realization being more profound and rapid than in sūtra? How does the accumulation of merit factor into this? Tantric methods produce more merit?

Malcolm wrote:
Tantric methods produce more merit, more rapidly using special methods such as mandala offerings. Typically, the merit and wisdom accumulation sections of any anuttarayoga tantra sadhana are theoretically capable of producing the equivalent of three incalculable eons worth of the two accumulations in a single session. Your individual milage may vary.

Huseng said:
Monastics are prohibited from sexual intercourse, but is the visualization of the activity equally as efficacious as the physical act? I understand Je Tsong Khapa decided to forego the act of coupling out of concern for disciples and achieved his liberation in bardo.

Malcolm wrote:
There is very little agreement on this issue among Tibetan lineages. There is also considerable disagreement about this issue in Indian sources. So this is a difficult point. Some masters assert that a monastic may use a consort having achieved the path of seeing. Other masters assert that it is fine for them to use a consort upon attaining patience on the path of application.

However, auto-erotic techniques may also be applied in absence of a consort. This is the usual mode of practice for single practitioners and monastics. For example, Vajraghantapada (a bhikṣu) asserts, in connection with the practice of Cakrasamvara, that while sexual misconduct is not a practice recommended in the tantras (because you must protect the bodies of others, etc.), non-celibate conduct (abrahmacarya) is.

Jeff's (Jnana) posts on this subject exhibit a specifically Gampopa/Kagyu POV on this issue.

In general, the Sakya school and Nyingma schools place much more importance on erotic practices than do the Kagyus. However, in the Nyingma school they are not generally considered indispensable for awakening in this lifetime. In most of the Tantric lineages within Sakya, they are considered indispensable for awakening in this lifetime. The exception to this would be the oral instructions of Naropa's Khechari -- where a type of pranāyāma practice is said to result in a state of bliss equivalent to the bliss of sexual congress and therefore obviates the need for a consort (also partially accounting, I feel, for the reason the Naropa Khechari instructions have attained the popularity they have). Thus, there can be differences between specific oral instruction lineages as well. This is why the instruction of a properly qualified guru is key on this point -- since there are so many lineages, and differences in practices even of the same deity in different instruction lineages.

The Kagyus and Gelugs have skeptical attitudes towards erotic practice grounded in Kadampa opinions. However, of the latter two, the Gelugs also generally maintain that erotic practices are indispensable for awakening in this lifetime.


Huseng said:
Is the amount of merit a practitioner has from past lives taken into account when it is said that Buddhahood is possible in one life using tantric methods?

Malcolm wrote:
No. The statement that someone could achieve complete buddhahood in one lifetime through Vajrayāna methods refers to a beginner on the Mahāyāna path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 12th, 2011 at 8:57 AM
Title: Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss
Content:
Namdrol said:
Nirvikalpana


Huseng said:
In what way is the realization of emptiness made superior through nirvikalpana as opposed to dhyāna? Is it faster, deeper, more likely?

As Nāgārjuna explained the realization of ultimate truth is based on the foundation of conventional truth. I'm trying to understand why a non-conceptual samadhi would be better suited to realizing emptiness than conventional dhyāna.

Malcolm wrote:
Because the experience of non-conceptuality more closely resembles the experience of emptiness. In other words, in sutra there are no methods for approximating the experience of realizing emptiness. In tantra there are many.

Plus, you have to understand, that this experience is what is introduced during empowerment, and further, since the channels have been purified, the movements of winds are more subtle; and hence the mind is more subtle; hence the emptiness realization is more profound and more rapid.

We are not asserting that the ordinary bliss of an average couple's intercourse could ever lead to the realization of emptiness more rapidly than dhyana. However, when connected with the method, it does.

This does not contradict Nāgārjunas intent, since the experience of non-conceptuality is relative, and that relative experience is being used to point towards the ultimate.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 12th, 2011 at 8:36 AM
Title: Re: Encyclopedia of Bodhisattvas, Dharmapalas, Yidams, etc?
Content:
Kalagni said:
I'm sorry if this question has been asked/answered before, but I checked the forum and didn't see it.

I was wondering if anyone has any resources, print or online, that is essentially an encyclopedia of the different Bodhisattva, Dharmapalas, Yidams, Saints, etc etc?  No book I have mentions more than a handful at a time.  I'd just like a resource to turn to when I encounter one I'm unfamiliar with, or just curious about attributes, practices, mythology, etc.  I say encyclopedia to refer to depth of information, cause I'd like more than just a list of names, but anything to the right direction would be great, thanks.

~Kalagni

Malcolm wrote:
Oracles and Demons of Tibet, for dharmapalas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 12th, 2011 at 7:55 AM
Title: Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss
Content:


Huseng said:
But why in Vajrayāna would tantric bliss be considered superior to the bliss of dhyāna?

Namdrol said:
The former is non-conceptual and the latter is conceptual.

N

Huseng said:
What is the Sanskrit term for non-conceptual in this context? Asaṃjñā? Asaṃskṛta?

Malcolm wrote:
Nirvikalpana


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 12th, 2011 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:


Will said:
This is a fine answer and I, being an old creature, understand.  But if this attitude is the rationale for someone under 50, who never studies the root texts of ID (or any notion that is rejected), then I still chalk that up to laziness, peer pressure & other intellectual vices.

Malcolm wrote:
I guess I don't qualify, being 49.

That being said, Will -- there are numerous articles on the web written by Meyers. You don't have to read his book to become very familiar with his thinking. There are 85 of them here:

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=submitSearchQuery&query=Stephen%20C.%20Meyer&orderBy=date&orderDir=DESC&searchBy=author&searchType=all&includeBlogPosts=true " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is interesting to note that the Templeton Foundation, one of leading science/religion interface foundations, regards intelligent design as a political movement.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
Why is it better to talk about all this eon nonsense than about flying spaghetti monsters?

Malcolm wrote:
You will have to ask yourself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"The hallmark of the intelligent design movement, however, is that it purports to rise above the level of personal skepticism. It claims to have found a reason why evolution could not have produced a structure like the bacterial flagellum, a reason based on sound, solid scientific evidence.

Why does the intelligent design movement regard the flagellum as unevolvable? Because it is said to possesses a quality known as "irreducible complexity." Irreducibly complex structures, we are told, could not have been produced by evolution, or, for that matter, by any natural process. They do exist, however, and therefore they must have been produced by something. That something could only be an outside intelligent agency operating beyond the laws of nature – an intelligent designer. That, simply stated, is the core of the new argument from design, and the intellectual basis of the intelligent design movement.

The great irony of the flagellum's increasing acceptance as an icon of anti-evolution is that fact that research had demolished its status as an example of irreducible complexity almost at the very moment it was first proclaimed. The purpose of this article is to explore the arguments by which the flagellum's notoriety has been achieved, and to review the research developments that have now undermined they very foundations of those arguments.

...

This, however, is not what is meant by "intelligent design" in the parlance of the new anti-evolutionists. Their views demand not a universe in which the beauty and harmony of natural law has brought a world of vibrant and fruitful life into existence, but rather a universe in which the emergence and evolution of life is made expressly impossible by the very same rules. Their view requires that the source of each and every novelty of life was the direct and active involvement of an outside designer whose work violated the very laws of nature he had fashioned. The world of intelligent design is not the bright and innovative world of life that we have come to know through science. Rather, it is a brittle and unchanging landscape, frozen in form and unable to adapt except at the whims of its designer.

...

Against such a backdrop, the struggles of the intelligent design movement are best understood as clamorous and disappointing double failures – rejected by science because they do not fit the facts, and having failed religion because they think too little of God."

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/design2/article.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: beings from ???
Content:
Namdrol said:
Basically, what happens is that at the end of the last eon ...

Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
So time exists?


Malcolm wrote:
You really need me to answer that question for you?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:


Will said:
No Namdrol, my concern is with lack of fairness, equanimity or truth valuing on the part of many online Buddhists.

Malcolm wrote:
MYM answered this adequately.


Will said:
And what would Meyer's arguments be, pray tell; page number refs will be accepted. Meyer does not hide his Xtian beliefs, but his arguments for ID are not theological.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course they are, since they are bound up speculation. His tests at the end of the book are silly.

Will said:
If Newton, a devout theist, were alive today none of his insights would be tolerated, much less promulgated by the bigots of science.

Malcolm wrote:
Newton was more interested in Alchemy than math. And he, like many of his contemporaries, believed in a designer aka god. Darwin permanently upset that apple cart by showing why the appearance of design in fact is just a sign of natural selection. Meyers and his whole crew of ID people are all just passing off speculations as science.


Will said:
This notion that religious beliefs trump or motivate every other thought on any subject, especially science, is true for some Buddhists, Xtians, Jews et al.  But there are plenty (the majority?) of people of varied faiths who can think and chew gum at the same time.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, basically Meyers is a fellow of the Discover Institute. They have an ideological agenda which is contra evolutionary biology. They are about as anti-scientific as one can get. He is absolutely intent on proving that God created life. He wrote in 1999:

Physics and cosmology suggest intelligent design as a highly plausible and arguably best explanation for the exquisite fine-tuning of the physical laws and constants of the universe and the precise configuration of its initial conditions. Since the fine-tuning and initial conditions date from the very origin of the universe itself, this evidence suggests the need for an intelligent as well as a transcendent Cause for the origin of the universe. Since God as conceived by Christians and other theists possesses precisely these attributes, His creative action can adequately explain the origin of the cosmological singularity and the anthropic fine-tuning. Since naturalism denies a transcendent and pre-existent intelligent cause, it follows that theism provides a better explanation than naturalism for these two evidences taken jointly. Since pantheism, with its belief in an immanent and impersonal god, also denies the existence of a transcendent and pre-existent intelligence, it too lacks causal adequacy as an explanation for these evidences. Indeed, a completely impersonal intelligence is almost a contradiction in terms. Thus, theism stands as the best explanation of the three major worldviews theism, pantheism, and naturalism for the origin of the Big Bang singularity and anthropic fine-tuning taken jointly.

http://www.discovery.org/articleFiles/PDFs/ReturnofGdHypth.pdf " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Face it, Will -- this is his strategy:

a) Try to get intelligent design accepted as a plausible and "scientific" explanation for the origin of life, alongside Darwin's natural selection
b) Having done so, then it is a short step to getting theism accepted as the best inferable explanation for intelligent design
c) Introduce creationism into the schools via the backdoor of ID.

His book has been well cleansed on his theistic predilections. But his agenda is perfectly clear, he is anti-evolution, anti-science. He studied the philosophy of science in order undermine one scientific theory, as far as I can tell, Darwin's theory of natural selection.

Furthermore, the Discover Institute promotes that most un-Buddhsit idea: "human exceptionalism" the idea that human beings are "exceptional" among living creatures and morally superior to all, etc.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Prayer to protect the earth by one of the Dudjom Tulkus
Content:
Aemilius said:
I hope you are right, and we can easily turn the majority or whole of humanity to vegatarian diet through education, advertising etc...

Malcolm wrote:
It will never happen. We live in the Kali Yuga. Things will not get better, so it is foolish to hope they will.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: Namkhai Norbu's Vajra Armor text/practice
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
When it is said that during the initial three-day retreat one should not recite anything but the Dorje Kotrab mantra, does this include even prayers, such as like the 7-line prayer and lineage prayers, gurus' long-life prayers, the alikali/Vajrasattva/D.O. mantra, and dedication prayers & mantras?


Malcolm wrote:
Ask rinpoche.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: uncomfortable mantra question
Content:


Aemilius said:
To understand the deep and profound truths of the Prajnaparamita, Yogacara, and Madhyamaka, you must first understand the basic teachings. They have been very clearly taught in the sravakayana teachings. This has been said by many tibetan teachers, for example by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso.
Even in the basic Theravada teaches that thoughts create karma,  there is nothing exceptional in that!

Sönam said:
It seems that you are ignorant of the teachings.
If there is a Hinayana and a Mahayana it's because it exists differences ... It is a fact that for sravakas some events like thunder and other events are not related to karma and that simply thinking about an act is not creating karma ... which is not the case for mahayana practitioners.
this is not questionable, it is so.

Sönam

Aemilius said:
I'm sorry if this is too much of a sidetrack...

best wishes!

Malcolm wrote:
What does this have to do with the original poster's question?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
Namdrol: The book has been soundly trashed by real scientists, not to mention the fact that ID and Buddhism are not compatible.
Many of whom (maybe most) never read the book - now that is "science".

Malcolm wrote:
Venema, a geneticist, read the book and it was his review I provided for you.

His conclusion is that the book is not science.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss
Content:


Huseng said:
But why in Vajrayāna would tantric bliss be considered superior to the bliss of dhyāna?

Malcolm wrote:
The former is non-conceptual and the latter is conceptual.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 11:17 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Nangwa said:
We already know ID is wrong view.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it would seem Will's crusade for this book has more to do with his own prejudice and bias against what he perceives to be "scientific" materialism than anything else.

He seems unable to accept that despite Meyer's protests, all of Meyer's arguments are in favor of a supernatural intelligent agent.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 10:49 AM
Title: Re: 5 Wisdoms
Content:
Namdrol said:
It depends on the Vajrayāna school to which one adheres. For example, the Sakya school teaches that all the qualities of the three kāyas are naturally present in sentient beings originally, and that this natural presence does not conflict with transformation.

Daniel Arraes said:
Then what would be the difference between this Sakya POV and Shentong?


Malcolm wrote:
Sakya view -- butter comes from churning milk
Shentong view -- butter is fully formed in milk already.

In other words, the Sakya POV is that the qualities of butter must exist in milk from the beginning, otherwise, one could never get butter out of milk. Likewise, the qualities of buddhahood must exist in sentient beings from the beginning, otherwise, sentient beings could never be the cause of buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 10:47 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
Nangwa: wants folks on a Buddhist forum to read a book about ID
To be correct, "wants folks on the Book Review section of a Buddhist forum to read this book about ID, before trashing it"; that is the main thing.

Malcolm wrote:
The book has been soundly trashed by real scientists, not to mention the fact that ID and Buddhism are not compatible.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 10:45 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
The practice of buddhadharma removes much of our ignorance, but not all.

Malcolm wrote:
It removes all. Otherwise, there is no point in practicing Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 7:37 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
In other words, Namdrol, this book is like all the other ID writing out there; unread by you because of unwarrented assumptions & prejudice.

As for the Judge's & PBS rulings - that is no more definitive against Meyers version of ID, than Pope Whatever's bull against Galileo.

Is there no one here with the gonads (thus including ladies) to read the frigging book or at least those final chapters I suggested?  If not, chalk up another victory for modern Victorianism or laziness or PC or moral cowardice or Buddha knows what....


Malcolm wrote:
"Like Edge of Evolution before it, Signature in the Cell represents a layman’s attempt to overturn an entire field of research based on a surface-level understanding (and, at times, significant misunderstanding or ignorance) of the relevant science..."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: 5 Wisdoms
Content:
Kunzang said:
This is why Jesus's birth is "immaculate", no sperm involved.
In Catholic dogma, "immaculate" is associated with Mary, not Jesus.  "Immaculate conception" means that Mary was, from conception, without the stain of Original Sin.  Though it had been a belief in Catholicism for centuries, it was only officially made a dogma in 1854.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is because she was also conceived "immaculately". Same rule applies i.e. no sperm.

Original sin was defined in this way by Augustine in Civitas Dei.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 11th, 2011 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
For those whose prejudice against ID prevents them from reading Meyer's entire book, I would suggest studying only chapters 15-20 + the Epilogue and the notes. That is about 150 pages.

These chapters are more general in content and easier than the difficult science chapters preceding.
"Although other flaws are less serious in and of
themselves, they are still indicative of the level of
argumentation in the book, as well as of the quality
of its peer review. For example, it was in chapter
three that I first arrived at what I now call a “Behe
moment” when reading antievolutionary literature.
In Michael Behe’s book Edge of Evolution, he makes
a few obvious “rookie errors” when discussing how
probabilities work in population genetics.34 This,
for me, was the clear signal that the book was written
by an amateur in the field and not adequately peer
reviewed. In Signature, this moment arrived when
Meyer calls Pnemonococci a bacterium and a virus
in the same paragraph.35 This impression was confirmed
anew when Meyer describes, over the course
of several pages, his epiphany that DNA bases do
not have bonds between them and thus cannot selforganize
into specified sequences. This “epiphany”
is something that biology majors learn (or at least,
should learn) in their introductory courses. This
theme continued apace in the figure describing translation.
36 Signature shows tRNAs aligning to the
mRNA in a 5' to 5' orientation, tRNAs with codon
instead of anticodon sequences, and several inappropriate
nucleotide pairings: all very basic mistakes.
In short, Signature clearly was not written or peer
reviewed by individuals with a working knowledge
of molecular biology.
Now, these issues in and of themselves would not
be a serious problem for Signature, if not for the fact
that the strength of Meyer’s argument rests entirely
on his assertion that he has made a thorough search
through all proposed mechanisms for generating
biological information through natural means and
found them lacking. Meyer is asking his audience to
trust him that his analysis is thorough and sound.
However, that Meyer’s understanding of molecular
biology appears to be at or below a first-year college
level should give even the most pro-ID reader pause
here. It means that Meyer, well intentioned though
he may be, is simply not equipped to grapple with
these issues beyond an introductory textbook level.
Nor has Meyer sought the advice of those who are
able to do so. And as we have seen, Meyer has made
neither a thorough search for the origin of biological
information by natural mechanisms, nor a fair
assessment of current origin-of-life research.
...

While popular-level books written by nonspecialists
can be very helpful to a lay audience if they are
carefully reviewed by experts and adhere to consensus
science, Signature is not such a book. Like Edge of
Evolution before it, Signature in the Cell represents
a layman’s attempt to overturn an entire field of
research based on a surface-level understanding (and,
at times, significant misunderstanding or ignorance)
of the relevant science, published in a form that by-
passes review by qualified peers, and that is mar-
keted directly to a nonspecialist audience. This is
not good science, nor science in any meaningful
sense. If ID is going to advance as an intellectual
framework, it simply must do better. I, for one,
would be fascinated by a scientifically plausible
design argument. It would demonstrate that some-
thing is fundamentally wrong with the interpreta-
tion of very wide swaths of data across numerous
disciplines. That would not be a scientific problem,
but rather a monumental scientific opportunity that
would reshape research for decades to come. Such
times are the occasions of scientific legend—careers
to be made, Nobel prizes to be won. Alas, Signature is
not that argument. I do recommend it for those who
follow the ID literature, for it represents the current
state-of- the-art in ID thought for an important area
of biology. However, for those of us waiting for the
science behind ID, it looks as if the wait goes on.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2010/PSCF12-10Venema.pdf " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In other words, Will, this book is like all the other ID writing out there i.e. unscientific.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 10th, 2011 at 9:57 PM
Title: Re: 5 Wisdoms
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
In case of Tantra mostly the Sambhogakaya is realised.[/color]

Malcolm wrote:
In the case of Buddhahood, all three kāyas are fully realized, whether through sutra or tantra (including Dzogchen).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 10th, 2011 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: What to Do With Offerings
Content:
dontknowmind said:
I'm just curious what all of you do with your offerings once they've been used. I'm guessing that offerings and their uses differ by sect, so I would love to know what they are and what happens to them.

Malcolm wrote:
Everything comes from emptiness and dissolves back into emptiness, so it does not matter much what one does with offerings. Some people have elaborate rules, some people don't.

As for me, food (torma) offerings are put in a high clean place (a stump in my back yard actually), water offerings are tossed out the window into plantings in front of my house. Flowers go in the compost heap for next year's garden.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 10th, 2011 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: 5 Wisdoms
Content:


mudra said:
The potential to attain the three kayas is there "within" the minds, but the three kayas are certainly not inherently within the mind. We need to purify obscurations and develop our qualities (that we have the potential for, yes). But implying that it is all ready made within us and waiting for us to uncover it is simplistic, at least from the Vajrayana pov.

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on the Vajrayāna school to which one adheres. For example, the Sakya school teaches that all the qualities of the three kāyas are naturally present in sentient beings originally, and that this natural presence does not conflict with transformation.

mudra said:
As to the statement that the "sambhogakaya arises out of the dharmakaya"

Malcolm wrote:
That is exactly what the Sarvatathāgata-tattva samgraha states.

mudra said:
this is a bit problematic because in the buddha state the kayas (the rupakayas [nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya] and the dharmakayas [svabhavakaya and jnanadharma], plus in certain systems the vajrakaya) are actually inseparable.

Malcolm wrote:
They may be inseperable, but they do not necessarily all appear together at the same time. In any event, there is no fault in asserting that sambhogakāya arises from the dharmakāya -- there is a saying in Dzogchen -- at the time of the basis, all kāyas are the dharmakāya; at the time of the result, all kāyas are the nirmanakāya.

The three kāyas always exist on the basis of a sentient being's mind. If not, then the inseparability of samsara and nirvana would not be possible, and there would be no way for the three kāyas to manifest.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 10th, 2011 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: 5 Wisdoms
Content:


mudra said:
The only reason I am taking issue with this is that one runs the risk of making people who are not familiar with Buddhist view think that 'originally we were pure, then we messed up so the Buddha in us is all covered up by our sin". That's more like original sin in Catholicism.

Malcolm wrote:
"Original sin" in Catholicism means you were physically conceived with sperm. This is why Jesus's birth is "immaculate", no sperm involved.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 10th, 2011 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: The 1000 Buddhas
Content:
Namdrol said:
We are four buddhas down, 998 left to go. Then the universe will be destroyed.

Silent Forest said:
This seems to imply several consequences which I don´t quite understand: Having the universe destroyed would mean, that the cycle of birth and rebirth would come to an end? Does this mean that all beings are enlightened at this point?
The fact that there are predefined 998 to come and if I understood right predefined in which timeframe they are supposed to come would imply that it doesn´t matter what people do or how they behave and everything is predefined?


Malcolm wrote:
Well, most of the physical universe will be destroyed. There will remain a few "god" realms where sentient beings hang around until the container universe reforms.

The 1002 buddhas are discussed in a specific mahayana sutra attributed to Shakyamuni. But this does not mean that all of reality is predetermined.

It just means that according to this sutra Buddha made a prediction about the 998 buddhas to follow him. The next one, Maitreya, is expected to appear when the life span of human beings again increases to the span of 8,000 years (after it decreases to an average of ten years, etc.).

These kinds of cosmic epicycles are very characteristics of Indian religious thinking in general, and not particular to Buddhism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 10th, 2011 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: The 1000 Buddhas
Content:


Silent Forest said:
I didn´t study Buddhism, so I might be wrong

Namdrol said:
You are.

...but my own interpretation is that the idea behind 1000 is that it stands for “countless”.
In this eon there will be 1002 Buddhas, actually. Beginning with Krakkuchandra and ending Adhimukhta, all together there will be 1002 buddhas.

We are four buddhas down, 998 left to go. Then the universe will be destroyed.

N

Adamantine said:
I understand this history/prophecy, but could you clarify how a Buddha is defined in this context? It seems that Nirmanakayas like Padmasambhava and Garab Dorje are not included in this count, (although many call Padmasambhava the 'second Buddha') nor the 84 mahasiddhas, Longchenpa, Dudjom Lingpa, etc.  So far Krakuchchanda, Kanakamuni and Kashyapa, and then Shakyamuni we call Buddhas explicitly, because they revealed the relative methods to attain enlightenment when there was no prior Buddha's teachings left in this world-system? Is that the correct reason? And so each of the coming 998 will only appear once all traces of Shakyamuni's initial turning of the wheel have disappeared?

Could you outline the scale of time we are considering from now until the appearance of Adhimukhta?  And which sutra can all of this info be found in?

Malcolm wrote:
They are supreme nirmanakāyas as opposed to varigated nirmankāyas. They each appear after the shasana of the previous supreme nirmankāya has more or less disappeared.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 10th, 2011 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: The 1000 Buddhas
Content:


Silent Forest said:
I didn´t study Buddhism, so I might be wrong

Malcolm wrote:
You are.


Silent Forest said:
...but my own interpretation is that the idea behind 1000 is that it stands for “countless”.

Malcolm wrote:
In this eon there will be 1002 Buddhas, actually. Beginning with Krakkuchandra and ending Adhimukhta, all together there will be 1002 buddhas.

We are four buddhas down, 998 left to go. Then the universe will be destroyed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 9th, 2011 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: The 1000 Buddhas
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
- How many names do we know of those 1000 Buddhas?

All of them.
- What would be the name of that Sutra, if mentioned somewhere?
Bhadrakalpika sūtra, volume forty-five in the Derge version of the Buddhist bka' 'gyur. This sutra was translated from Sanskrit into Tibetan in 8th century. It has been translated into English under the title "Fortunate Eon".

There is also a similar sutra in Bon but I do not know its name and it has not been translated.

N

N



- Do those Buddhas know eachother?
- Can we speak here of a "person" with "name"?
- Are the 12 vows of a Buddha based on the person?

Best wishes
KY[/color]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 9th, 2011 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Namdrol said:
Knowing the energy of the svābhavakāya
as their own appearance produced buddhas;
being mistaken about their own appearance produced sentient beings.

Pero said:
Is there a difference between svabhavakaya and svabavikakaya?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 9th, 2011 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:


Namdrol said:
In order to understand this, you need to study the process of Samantabhadra's liberation. When you do so, you will discover than Samantabhadra was not always liberated. Then you will understand that Samantabhadra possessed innate ignorance, but not imputing ignorance. Innate ignorance is simply unknowing. Imputing ignorance causes dualistic vision.

N

booker said:
Hello Lopon

Where can I read about the process of Samantabhadra's liberation? I could not find antything like that in the Kunjed Gyalpo, can you point me to the passage saying about this process?

In conclusion, at the end of this book ChNNR says Samantabhadra was never stained, nor it would know the limiting concept of liberation, or "first".

Malcolm wrote:
The process of the liberation of Samantabhadra is proper to man ngag sde. You will not find anything about it in sems sde, at all, not even a little bit. You can read about it in the eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyinthig.

The innate ignorance is not a "stain" per say. It is not an afflictive ignorance, it is a simple absence of knowing.

Basically, at the point the basis arises from the basis, there is a neutral awareness present in the basis. That neutral awareness has no self-knowledge until the basis arises. While it is not aware of itself, it is in a state of non-afflictive ignorance.

When it apprehends the five lights, it apprehends them either as its own display, resulting in nirvana, Samantabhadra, etc., or it does not, resulting in samsara. The Tantra That Uproots Delusion:

Knowing the energy of the svābhavakāya
as their own appearance produced buddhas;
being mistaken about their own appearance produced sentient beings.

Afflictive ignorance comes from the dualistic vision produced by imputing ignorance.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2011 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Wisdom aspect in Tantra and Dzogchen
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Inside Dzogchen some Master(s) adhere to the opinion,  that if   the emptiness aspect of the thought is cought / realised etc. then the karmic seed will be 108% destroyed.

Malcolm wrote:
Not all at once. Just gradually.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2011 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Wisdom aspect in Tantra and Dzogchen
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
- Thoughts
- Dissolving of thoughts / or the elimination by realising their emptiness, done in the pre-Trekchod State. Karma seeds are here eliminated.

Malcolm wrote:
if this were the case, then there is no need for the rest.

In reality, karmic seeds or traces, are not eradicated by the above. If they were, one's impure vision would vanish.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2011 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Wisdom aspect in Tantra and Dzogchen
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
[
- By what method are the emotions reversed into the Wisdom aspect according the path of Tantra and how realised?

Malcolm wrote:
The two stages.


kalden yungdrung said:
- What is your opinion about how would be done the realisation in Dzogchen of the 5 Wisdoms, or when does this happen ?

Malcolm wrote:
Tregchő and tögal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2011 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Tsalung Trulkor and Yantra Yoga
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
But in Bon is also a Tsalung Trulkor lineage and that differs great from Yantra Yoga (lineages). Yantra Yoga is what is done inside the tradition of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and seems to be based on hatha yoga mainly with counting.

Malcolm wrote:
Yantra is just a name. The name of Norbu Rinpoche's system is known in Tibetan as "Bairo Trulkhor". He chose to back translate the name into Sanskrit. There are many different systems of Yantra/Trulkhor in Tibet. Sakya Lamdre has one; Nyingma has many; Kagyu has the Trulkhor from Naropa. Gelugpas have one related to Vajrabhairava as well as Naropa's system. Then there is a specific tradition of Trulkhor associated with Kalacakra. Then there is Trulkhor associated with Shangpa Kagyu, I would imagine. They are all a little different, but have the same basic principle in mind i.e. freeing up knots and kinks of the body and removing disease.

They all have similarities, and they all have differences. Bairo Trulkhor is the one that most resembles Hatha Yoga overall. It is perhaps the oldest one we have, as well.

kalden yungdrung said:
Further maintain we inside Bon Dzogchen, the famous 5 postures for Thodgal and they are not at all similar to the other yoga styles i (did) practice.

Malcolm wrote:
You asked about preparation, not main practice.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2011 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Tsalung Trulkor and Yantra Yoga
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,

- In what can we see similarities between Yantra Yoga and Tsalung Trulkor?

Malcolm wrote:
"Trulkor" is the Tibetan translation of the word "yantra". They are same thing. Different lineages of yantra/trulkor have differences.

kalden yungdrung said:
- What is the origen of Yantra Yoga and Tsalung Trulkor?

Malcolm wrote:
Indian Yogis.

kalden yungdrung said:
- Is Tsalung Trulkor/Yantra Yoga used in Thodgal preparations?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2011 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Hot and Cool Drinks?
Content:
conebeckham said:
I've noticed that many Tibetan Lamas, and even layfolk, steer clear of many cold drinks, preferring warm or hot beverages.  In fact, I've been told that cold beverages cannot be tolerated by some folks.

What is the reasoning behind this, according to Tibetan medicine?

Chaz said:
I've been toldd that the Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche's preferred beverage is Coke.  I don't know if he takes it cold or at room temp though.

I recall seeing a picture of the Karmapa on his 2008 visit to Boulder with a Coke in hand, although when he taught at Mackey Auditorium he had a venti Starbucks with him.

Namdrol-la what the TM view on cafinated drinks?


Malcolm wrote:
Hard on the kidneys.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2011 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Namdrol said:
Dualistic vision arises from the second ignorance, the imputing ignorance; not from the first ignorance, innate ignorance.

booker said:
That would mean the primordial understanding has the innate ignorance. Right? Which is quite a contradiction. Since Samantabhadra is "the one who is in the state of instant presence from the beginning and is never distracted " how can it ever had any ignorance in the first place?

Malcolm wrote:
In order to understand this, you need to study the process of Samantabhadra's liberation. When you do so, you will discover than Samantabhadra was not always liberated. Then you will understand that Samantabhadra possessed innate ignorance, but not imputing ignorance. Innate ignorance is simply unknowing. Imputing ignorance causes dualistic vision.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2011 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Agganna Sutta - human origins
Content:
Will said:
Namdrol: Not necessarily. In any event, that is a species of mythology.
What is "mythology" - the sutta?  What is "not necessarily"?  You are devolving into incoherence.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the sutta is a mythology.

It is not necessary for the mind to provide a "blueprint".

By design, the ID people mean "planned".Cellular life is not random (since it requires certain causes and conditions), but it is not planned. Human beings and other forms of life on this planet as well as the rest of the cosmos were not created or designed by anyone.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 8th, 2011 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:


Namdrol said:
Even Samantabhadra first possessed ignorance.

booker said:
Hello Lopon

How do you relate to what you just said the following from ChNNR (in "Dzogchen Teachings"):

ChNNR said:
Generally speaking, it is explained that one who is in the state of instant presence from the beginning and is never distracted has knowledge or understanding. Thatat primordial understanding is called Samantabhadra, which is the symbol of the Ati Buddha— the primordial Buddha that since the beginning has never been conditioned by dualistic vision. If we don’t have this knowledge or understanding, there is no way we can realize or get into that state

Malcolm wrote:
Dualistic vision arises from the second ignorance, the imputing ignorance; not from the first ignorance, innate ignorance.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 7th, 2011 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: Agganna Sutta - human origins
Content:
Will said:
Namdrol: In any event, that so called body has no cells, etc.
True, but what are the following devolving steps?  At some point the subtle body becomes flesh, which latter requires cells and growth from tiny to our "fathom long" body.  The mind is surely involved at that point - maybe not "creating" but supplying a blueprint or image that can be copied.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily. In any event, that is a species of mythology.


Will said:
At any rate this Buddhist devolve-evolve notion, with human life never ending, but transforming from subtle to gross & reverse, is not only very different from the conventional scientific idea, but suggests to me that mind or consciousness rules somehow.

Malcolm wrote:
"Design" suggests intention. Buddha rejects the idea that the universe was designed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 7th, 2011 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Hot and Cool Drinks?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Thanks, Namdrol....Some have claimed cold drinks make them sick....what's TM's take on this?

Malcolm wrote:
Same reason, kill digestive heat, makes your immune system compromised, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 7th, 2011 at 7:29 PM
Title: Re: Agganna Sutta - human origins
Content:
Will said:
...what "mind-made" means in this sutta passage.

Namdrol said:
Mano-maya kāya -- it means that the body in question here is from an apparitional birth; not womb, egg or moisture birth.

N

Will said:
Above is one definition, yet there are others.  The Lankavatara Sutra and some of the suttas say it is also "will-made" ie, magical, siddhi created.

Here is a short paper on the subject: http://skb.or.kr/down/papers/129.pdf " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
Not in this context. In any event, that so called body has no cells, etc.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 7th, 2011 at 10:09 AM
Title: Re: Hot and Cool Drinks?
Content:
conebeckham said:
I've noticed that many Tibetan Lamas, and even layfolk, steer clear of many cold drinks, preferring warm or hot beverages.  In fact, I've been told that cold beverages cannot be tolerated by some folks.

What is the reasoning behind this, according to Tibetan medicine?

Malcolm wrote:
Habitually using cold drinks kill digestive heat. However, when it is very hot, it is fine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 7th, 2011 at 10:06 AM
Title: Re: Agganna Sutta - human origins
Content:
Will said:
...what "mind-made" means in this sutta passage.

Malcolm wrote:
Mano-maya kāya -- it means that the body in question here is from an apparitional birth; not womb, egg or moisture birth.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 7th, 2011 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Agganna Sutta - human origins
Content:
Will said:
10. 'There comes a time, Vasettha, when, sooner or later after a long period, this world
contracts. At a time of contraction, beings are mostly born in the Abhassara Brahma
world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving
through the air, glorious — and they stay like that for a very long time. But sooner or
later, after a very long period, this world begins to expand again. At a time of expansion,
the beings from the Abhassara Brahma world, having passed away from there, are
mostly reborn in this world. Here they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, selfluminous,
moving through the air, glorious--and they stay like that for a very long time.
"Mind-made" I bolded, suggesting to me that we divine-like humans use some higher function of mind to intelligently design ourselves - from the 4 higher skandhas to cells to big toes.  No Creator God needed.  This is why the hyperventilating over ID as meaning ONLY "God the Creator" is silly.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we don't intelligently design ourselves. According to the Buddhist model, we stupidly degenerate by being attracted to physical food because of our afflictive patterns. There is nothing intelligent about it.

There is no higher function of mind at all involved here. Just affliction and action driving samsara. There is nothing at all intelligent about samsara; actually, samsara is driven by ignorance.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 6th, 2011 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Mercury Amalgam Fillings
Content:
Soar said:
Does Tibetan Medicine have anything relevant to say about mercury amalgam fillings?

Afaik the accepted dental understanding is that mercury amalgam fillings are much better for big fillings on back teeth for example and pose no health risks.  So getting white fillings in this case would be a weaker option and could not seal the tooth as well leading to easier decay.

I'm not sure what to make of modern views against using mercury fillings, mercury is obviously toxic but really does anything close to an effective amount get released into the body, or is just having the filling in the mouth going to cause problems?

The clearest advice I've had against metal in the mouth has been with implants and posts as these go into the body more and disrupt chi flow from a TCM perspective.

Malcolm wrote:
The mercury in fillings is bonded to other metals, hence it is held to be inert. The problem is leaching, from what I understand.

In general, one can chelate mercury out of the body using a sea buckthorn decoction for one week.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 6th, 2011 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: uncomfortable mantra question
Content:
Aemilius said:
Barak Obama has declared himself to be a murderer becaused he said that he rejoiced over a killing, but in our social unit it is not permissible to call him a murderer.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure it is.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 6th, 2011 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
Your unwarrented assumption led by your prejudice against theism makes you think that the main purpose of the book is to ruin the splendid, "objective" science of origins this day.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't assume Meyers is out to ruin science.

He wrote the book, clearly to reconcile cellular evolution with theism.

And that, from a Buddhist point of view, is unacceptable. Karma and evolution get along just fine, however.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 6th, 2011 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
Firstly, Signature in the Cell is not "stealth theology".

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is:

“Those who believe in a transcendent God may, therefore, find support for their belief from the biological evidence that supports the theory of intelligent design”

-- Signature in the Cell


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 5th, 2011 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
mudra said:
but also intrigued by your interpretation of Je Tsongkhapa stating that humans are just devolved gods. Is there a citation, and in what context?

Malcolm wrote:
This is not Tsongkhapa's idea. It is sourced from the Pali Canon, in the Digha Nikāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 5th, 2011 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: uncomfortable mantra question
Content:


Aemilius said:
Sure, but you are also all the other things that you have done. The first precept is not the only cause of identity.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, people's karma is mixed -- I already pointed this out.

However, you asked the question "what makes a murderer a murderer".

I answered it.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 5th, 2011 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Re:
Content:


Will said:
OK I will re-read it.  But the Kosa and you have just described "first" beings, in any kalpa, which is what I meant - not any other "first".  The process sound similar to an individual's rebirth; body dies but mind does not and during bardo (an "upper" realm) waits until "traces of action" reform our "container" and the mind descends. But all of us "being born from the upper two form realms" does not explain the origin of life & beings on this Earth planet.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure it does. The outer elements gradually come together again after the universe cools off, forms solar systems, planets that are capable of bearing life and then life forms evolve on the planets.

It does not require design.

Buddhism does not describe outer dependent origination in detail. But as long as one's version of the universe's formation does not included a creator or a first cause of any kind, then that version will be acceptable to Buddhism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Prayer to protect the earth by one of the Dudjom Tulkus
Content:
Aemilius said:
Nietzsche wrote in Twilight of the Idols," Mankind does not strive for happiness; only the Englishman does that."
This is quoted and  its meaning explained by Stuart Jeffries in the article Why happiness is overrated
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jul/11/whyhappinessisoverrated


Malcolm wrote:
The usual word for happiness in Tibetan is "bde ba" -- which is a translation of sukha, ease. It does not mean the kind of emotional "happiness" we think of in the West. It just means a situation of less stress and more comfort.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: beings from ???
Content:
Will said:
If so, what explains the existence of the godly-humans in the first place?


Namdrol said:
Karma; and karma is not "intelligent design".

N

Will said:
How does karma bring the first beings into appearance - do tiny wind wheels spin and presto Adi Buddha & Adi Gandharva & Adi fill-in-the-blank pop up?

At least give me an English source to read that describes this process of appearence of beings - not cosmology, I have such already.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no first beings.

Please read the third chapter of the Kosha where the collapse and formation of the universes is described.

Basically, what happens is that at the end of the last eon, all sentient beings are reborn in the upper two form realms while the rest of the container universe is destroyed. There is a period of twenty dark eons, and then due to the traces of action the wind mandala forms again, and and after the container universe forms due to the traces of karma of sentient beings, a being is born from the upper two form realms into the brahma loka. He looks around, and being unable to remember the loka from which he took rebirth, and being unable to perceive it, thinks he is both self-created, created the whole shebang, and manages to convince everyone else who is reborn afterwards that he did create it all.

The point, Will, is that dependent origination does not permit there ever to be a first anything.

Adibuddha simply refers to the first Buddha of a given eon i.e. the Sambhogakāya. It does not mean some creator buddha, as you know.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: beings from ???
Content:
Will said:
If so, what explains the existence of the godly-humans in the first place?


Namdrol said:
Karma; and karma is not "intelligent design".

N


mindyourmind said:
And in any event, how does positing an "intelligent designer" (aka God) explain anything?

Malcolm wrote:
Just recall "The variety of the world is created by karma". This is the Buddhist "Intelligent designer" -- not to bright, if you ask me.

It doesn't. It just allows us to collapse into intellectual stupor and relief.

I am betting Will might be a freemason, though, and while masonry is supposedly open to all of any faith (upon invitation, of course), one of the principle requirements is belief in a GAU, a Grand Architect of the Universe. Since Buddhism does not accept a GAU, Buddhists would be technically excluded from masonry on principle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: beings from ???
Content:
Will said:
If so, what explains the existence of the godly-humans in the first place?


Malcolm wrote:
Karma; and karma is not "intelligent design".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: Why isn't Tendai popular in the West?
Content:
ryokai said:
The New York Betsuin

Malcolm wrote:
If you want to know the story on Prosser, talk to Monshin.


N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 7:00 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
An essay on ID by a theosophist that rejects the one God in favor of intelligent beings as the architechs & builders:

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sunrise/52-02-3/sc-wtst3.htm " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
Endless regress -- who designed the designers?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 6:59 AM
Title: Re: Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer
Content:
Will said:
A 2009 title from Harper; this work is important.  It's subtitle is "DNA and the Evidence for Intelligent Design". Some chapters are difficult for those of us poorly educated folk, but overall it is a good look at the arguments for and against ID.  It is not a work about evolution, but just focuses on the arising of life via the first cell.  Also impressive is his unbiased, close examination of the evidence against ID. He is not a preacher for ID who ignores evidence against it in favor of a pre-conceived notion.


Namdrol said:
ID is just stealth theology. Total speculative junk.

Will said:
Have you read the book?  If not, who cares what your uninformed opinion is.

Malcolm wrote:
Don't need to read the book, the idea of ID is hogwash -- God dressed up in science. We are Buddhists. We do not accept such silly theories on principle. Dependent origination is a much better explanation that allows for natural selection and so on.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Human cost of cheap leather shoes.
Content:
Huseng said:
Samsara is getting worse and worse. We're on a downward spiral.

I'm working on bailing out of samsara. The flaming wreck doesn't have many positive prospects to it.

Malcolm wrote:
Samsara never gets worse, we just get more sensitive.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Human cost of cheap leather shoes.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Samsara.


Huseng said:
Setting aside the fact that immeasurable numbers of cows are killed to produce leather, there is also a human cost.

This is really sick. Bangladesh lets their workers treat leather with a well known carcinogenic chemical. They produce the leather for the big name brands of the world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XcIGcuWwYg " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


The injustice being committed against  humanity, animals and the environment is simply unspeakable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Namkhai Norbu's Vajra Armor text/practice
Content:
padma norbu said:
I can contact an archangel and have him tell me what to do to solve a problem pretty easily, in comparison.

Malcolm wrote:
Working with worldly spirits is always easier.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: Is Pure Land "Buddhism" contradictory to Buddhism?
Content:
Enochian said:
Namdrol explained that Pure Lands are actually Bardo realms for those who cling to the idea of a buddhist heaven.

Namdrol said:
Bardo experiences, not bardo realms.

There is a lot of slippage here, actually. There are so-called buddhakṣetras, our solar system is one of them. There are pure ones, and impure ones.

But when people die, what most people are experiencing as "birth" in a pure realm is a bardo experience.

I

Adamantine said:
Could you please elaborate further and provide some sources for this interpretation?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, Sachen remarks that Khechari, the pure land of the dakinis, can be a name for the bardo. So when people gain liberation in Khechari, it can mean they are actually mother tantra practitioners attaining awakening in the bardo.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: Is Pure Land "Buddhism" contradictory to Buddhism?
Content:
Enochian said:
Namdrol explained that Pure Lands are actually Bardo realms for those who cling to the idea of a buddhist heaven.

Malcolm wrote:
Bardo experiences, not bardo realms.

There is a lot of slippage here, actually. There are so-called buddhakṣetras, our solar system is one of them. There are pure ones, and impure ones.

But when people die, what most people are experiencing as "birth" in a pure realm is a bardo experience.

I


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 4th, 2011 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Why isn't Tendai popular in the West?
Content:


Huseng said:
They are quite insistent that you will receive no serious training unless you ordain.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, Yoga tantra on down arose in monasteries. Anuttarayoga tantra arose in the margins of the monasteries.


Huseng said:
Japanese Mikkyo is kept away from anyone but the initiated.


Malcolm wrote:
I think it is fair to say that Shugendo was a reaction against this - but if one were to make a parallel with Bon, it would be Shugendo.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Why isn't Tendai popular in the West?
Content:
Seishin said:
Why isn't Tendai popular in the West?


Namdrol said:
For the same reason that Yoga Tantra is not popular in Tibet -- anuttarayoga tantra is alive and well in the West.

N

Huseng said:
I think Shingon, which is yoga-tantra, would be found appealing to many people outside of Japan if it were actively translated and taught outside of Japan. It isn't anuttarayoga-tantra (I don't think it was even developed in India at the time Shingon was being transmitted to Japan from China), but the model presents a path to Buddahood in a single lifetime. It is a model of tantra without Bon elements like in Tibet, though the Chinese influences are clearly present.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no Bon elements in Buddhist tantra in Tibet. There are a few rites, such as sang offerings, etc. that Tibetans use that ultimately derive from bon, but that are not "tantric". Many local deities were absorbed as protectors,however this phenomena is common in all Buddhist countries and is not unique to Tibetan Buddhism.



Huseng said:
But not a lot of people want to go to university in the small town of Koyasan on top of a mountain. Here is a university with superb resources for the study of not just Japanese Shingon, but Tibetan and Sanskrit tantric literature as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Yoga tantra requires a kind of ritual specialization for regular practice not needed in Anuttarayoga tantra. This is the main reason why it declined in Tibet. Yoga Tantra is more external.

Also I agree that in general, the elitism of the Japanese priesthood around Mikkyo in general will contribute to its eventual decline.

On the other hand, there is also a growing interest in Anuttarayoga tantra and so on in Japan too.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Why isn't Tendai popular in the West?
Content:


ryokai said:
Jion Prosser is no longer teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
Largely because he was exposed on E-Sangha to be someone who falsely claimed to be a Tendai Acharya.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: Why isn't Tendai popular in the West?
Content:
Seishin said:
Why isn't Tendai popular in the West?


Malcolm wrote:
For the same reason that Yoga Tantra is not popular in Tibet -- anuttarayoga tantra is alive and well in the West.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 7:08 AM
Title: Re: HIDDEN BON TREASURES
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Adhi Nath wrote:
I wouldn't say that. I would say that the people who brought the Vedas to India where from the region of Rishikas where Dzogchen may have originated. It could mean that the Maharishis were Dzogchenpas and the people who said the Vedas were trying the best they could to preserve some of that knowledge. Perhaps they did not succeed, because the Vedas are not Dzogchen. But when you look at the Gayatri mantra and it's inner and secret meanings, one could get the impression that there is a direct connection between the sun, the mantras and the mind. In any event the people who transmitted the Vedas were from Rishikas/Kambhojas aka Olmo Lungring.
Tahsi delek,

According Bon sources, did Bon originated in Tazhik a Persian like area. That is the outer area or seen area from Olmo Lungring.
People out of these outer areas are still called today Tazhiks. 
Rishikas, where is that situated? Or do you mean Rishkesh the city of the Rishis or seers meant in the Vedic culture? Maybe are these Rishis connected to the Dzogchen cycle of teachings of Prahevajra, that could be, but according Bon we are not informed about a connection with the Rishis.   

Best wishes
KY

adinatha said:
Rishikas and Kambhojas is the area of what is now called Tazik-Uzbek. Tazik-Uzbek was called Rishikas/Kambhojas maybe 3000-5000 years ago. It was not a Persian like area then. It was proto-Vedic and Proto-Persian. If we are talking 18,000 years ago like the Zhang Zhung texts indicate, we are talking about Rishikas and Kambhojas. These names are mentioned in the Mahabharata describing the peoples from this area who settled in Punjab and what is today Pakistan (where Udyana was). This group transmitted the Vedas. According to the Mahabharata the Maharishis responsible for discovering the Vedas were from Rishikas (land of the Rishis) and Kambhojas.

Incidentally there is a township in Tazik known as Almalyk which sounds like Olmo Lungring. Strangely it is one of the most polluted places on Earth.

Malcolm wrote:
And Sudakshina, the king of the Kambhojas, O ruler of men, accompanied by the Yavanas and Sakas, came to the Kuru chief with an Akshauhini of troops.

Yavanas = Ionians. Sakas = Scythians.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: Alternative biographies of the Buddha.
Content:


adinatha said:
Mahaprajapati was also considered the mother goddess of the universe.

Malcolm wrote:
I know a guy whose dog is named Buddha...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: Alternative biographies of the Buddha.
Content:


Huseng said:
As he points out, this is quite different from the more common account of the Buddha's life. For example his mother is alive when he departs the home life. That's in stark contrast to the popular account where his mother is said to have died. He also is a boy when he departs into homelessness.

Namdrol said:
A boy with a beard?

By his "mother" he could have been referring to Mahaprajapati, his nanny.

adinatha said:
Is it just me, but isn't it obvious, at least these names are entirely allegorical? His mother was "Maya" his nanny "Mahaprajapati?" The "mother" of "buddhas" is realization that all is "maya." And a "buddha" appears in the universe aka the deity "Mahaprajapati" and by seeking shelter in her mountains and forests is "raised" by her?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think a mountain goddess went to Ananda to be admitted to the Sangha as a nun.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 5:31 AM
Title: Re: Tradition in the West
Content:
Pero said:
I wonder what these guys talk about when they get together like that.

Malcolm wrote:
Girls...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Alternative biographies of the Buddha.
Content:


Huseng said:
As he points out, this is quite different from the more common account of the Buddha's life. For example his mother is alive when he departs the home life. That's in stark contrast to the popular account where his mother is said to have died. He also is a boy when he departs into homelessness.

Malcolm wrote:
A boy with a beard?

By his "mother" he could have been referring to Mahaprajapati, his nanny.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Namkhai Norbu's Vajra Armor text/practice
Content:
padma norbu said:
A friend of mine was advising that I should do this. He learned it on a 3-day retreat. I found that Namkhai Norbu offers a text on this practice, but the explanation is a little confusing to me. I am not sure if I need more than the general transmission in order to practice it.

So, I'm just wondering if I have permission to do Namkhai Norbu's "Vajra Armor" text/practice or if I need something more.

I looked at the list of lungs Namkhai Norbu read on the last day of retreat and I see that I wrote down "Protection Mantra - may be activated by 3-day retreat." I did not write down "Vajra Armor" anywhere, but that does not mean Namkhai Norbu didn't say that's what it was. I was struggling to hear what I was receiving and writing down as fast as possible.

Malcolm wrote:
This is vajra armor, so you have transmission.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Drikung Dzogchen Lineage
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
dzoki wrote:
Depends on which lineage you want to know. There are several lineages of Dzogchen in Drikung Kagyu, all of them are terma.
These are the tertons of Drikung Kagyu:

Drigung Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsog also known as Drigung Ratna (16th Century).
Drigung Orgyen Nüden Dorje also known as Drigung Lho Jedrung or Lho Bongtül.
Drigung Zhabdrung Chetsang, Konchok Rinchen (16th Century).
Drigung Chungtsang, Chokyi Dragpa (17th Century).
Drigung Özer Dorje of Dri-Matak Gön
Garnor rinpoche

I don´t know whether Garnor Rinpoche has revealed any dzogchen cycle, he has a terma of wrathful Achi Drolma and Vajrakilaya.

Rinchen Phuntsok revealed the famous Damcho Gongpa Yangzab.

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your replies.

Finally did i expect an unbroken Dzogchen lineage here like stemming from Samantabhadra in this case to the actual Lineage Master.
But this could be true in the Drikung Dzogchen lineage maybe ?   


Best wishes
KY

Malcolm wrote:
Yangzab lineage is Samantabhadra, Vajrasattva, Garab Dorje, Shri Singha, Padmasambhava, Prince Mutig Tsadpo (Senalak) --> Drikung Rinpoche Phuntsok etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 3rd, 2011 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Zhang Zhung and the Tibetan alphabets
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
ZHANG ZHUNG AND TIBETAN ALPHABETS 
by 
the Ven, Geshela Chapur

According to Bon history, the original Tibetan alphabet was copied from the ancient Zhang-Zhung alphabet before the reign of the 2nd Tibetan king, Mukri Tsedpo.

Malcolm wrote:
All Alphabets, including Sanskrit, are based on western semitic script. Writing was introduced to India by the Greeks. If anything, the possibility is that Zhang Zhung borrowed the greek alphabet. 

Tibetan is definitely based on Gupta script. 

N


kalden yungdrung said:
The minister then reputedly devised a new script for Tibetan based on the Devanagari model

Malcolm wrote:
Devanagari did not exist in the 7th century. Earliest examples of what we now term date from the 11th century. It was made the standard script of Sanskrit and Hindi only after the invention of a movable type for Devanagari in the 19th century. 


N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 2nd, 2011 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Drikung Dzogchen Lineage
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
- To what do these Termas belong, Semsde, Longde or Mengagde?
-

Malcolm wrote:
Yangzab is described by the terton, Rinchen Phunstok, as an appendix of the Khandro Nyinthig, so it is classed as Manngag sde.

However, it mainly consists of mahāyoga and anuyoga sadhanas (three roots, shitro, protectors etc.), with only a short snying thig text for the Dzogchen section. In other words, it was used as a supplement to Khandro Nyinthig.

One of the features of Yangzab is that is has many very, very wrathful practices.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 2nd, 2011 at 7:10 AM
Title: Re: Tradition in the West
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Adamantine...exactly what I meant..certain mantras etc due to vibrational quality, or as you said meter etc are best left as is.

Namdrol...dude, that guy is REALLY scary looking..like Night of the living Dead scary...where do you find these pics anyways?


Malcolm wrote:
http://www.adolphus.nl/sadhus/index.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 2nd, 2011 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Tradition in the West
Content:
Sönam said:
classical tantrism traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
But I like classical tantra traditions...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 2nd, 2011 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: What is Ka'Go Blessing?
Content:
Adamantine said:
Tonight HH Sakya Trizen participates in this event
at NYU and gives the blessing of ka'go. Does anyone know
more about what this blessing is? The evening will be the meeting of Tibetan indigenous doctors with His Holiness in a panel discussion where His Holiness will give a keynote speech on healing through Medicine Buddha and Tibetan medicine.

The evening will conclude with His Holiness bestowing the blessings of healing and overcoming obstacles called ka’go.


Malcolm wrote:
It is a rite which invokes the blessings of the lineage lamas in order to command the protectors to protect the participants in the rite.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 1st, 2011 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Digital Tibetan Buddhist Altar
Content:
udawa said:
For what its worth, Namdrol has a link to the site from his own Tibetan Medicine blog.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because his blog was often interesting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 1st, 2011 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


Namdrol said:
Darkness is conditioned because it is impermanent.


PadmaVonSamba said:
When something is regarded as conditioned,
do you make a distinction between
that which simply undergoes transformation and is thus subject to gradual change
and that which undergoes total annihilation?"

In other words, absolute darkness is not subject to change, only to annihilation.
A room is either totally dark or else it isn't ..
That darkness is destroyed by the faintest illumination.
So due to external circumstances it may not be permanent
but it has no characteristics which arise dependent on anything else.
Only the duality of light and dark is dependent.

Malcolm wrote:
Darkness is part of the rūpa āyatana, it is considered part of matter. It is a color, from a Buddhist point of view. It is therefore, impermanent and conditioned.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 30th, 2011 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


Namdrol said:
When we get down to the basic problem, we have an appearance. Then we give it a label. Identification follows appearance. Then conventional discourse can ensue. Underneath the all identifications is the idea of "is".


PadmaVonSamba said:
Well, you are saying that underneath the all identifications is the idea of "is", but still, you begin with appearance.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course.



PadmaVonSamba said:
I am thinking here that "is" or "is not" are conceptual, and only follow the initial arising of an appearance, the raw arising of appearance to the senses.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, all views are conceptual in nature.

PadmaVonSamba said:
What about total darkness? Total darkness is a complete lack of light.

Malcolm wrote:
That means it is still conditioned.

PadmaVonSamba said:
there is nothing actually causing darkness, yet that darkness can be directly witnessed because there is still the functioning of awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
Darkness is conditioned because it is impermanent.

PadmaVonSamba said:
So, perhaps sunyata can be directly experienced, precisely as both the non-arising of an experiencer and the non arising of an object of experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Then it cannot be experienced since neither an object nor an experiencer of an object arose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 30th, 2011 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: uncomfortable mantra question
Content:


Aemilius said:
For how long is a person a "murderer"?

Namdrol said:
For as long as he is satisfied with his action, does not regret it and confessed it.

Aemilius said:
How about his other deeds that he has also performed or committed? Do they not count as a basis for designation? Like a poet, a calligrafer, a father, a teacher, and so on ?
If you consider the political aspect, influential persons are also called reformers, like Mao Zedong by the Time Magazine.
Or they are called mr President or something, how do you call Him? - Murderer ?

Malcolm wrote:
A person's karma can be mixed. A leader can be a murderer, for example, many people think George Bush is a war criminal.

But you asked a very specific question, and I gave you a very specific reply. If you kill someone, and do not regret it, etc., than for that long you are a murderer.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 30th, 2011 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: The importance of lineage in Dzogchen
Content:
mindyourmind said:
How important is lineage in Dzogchen? As a Dzogchen practitioner, do you regard your lineage to be Nyingma, Dzogchen Community, something quite distinct, something completely irrelevant?

What about the so-called "blessings of (the) lineage"? Is lineage in Dzogchen important to you, or not?



Malcolm wrote:
Lineage is indispensable.

Dzogchen is principally a Nyingmapa teaching, but I consider myself a Buddhist first and foremost. The four schools are a Tibetan thing. There was no "Sakya, Kagyu, Gelug, Nyingma" etc., in India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 30th, 2011 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Reincarnation
Content:
kirtu said:
How can we help all the beings?

Malcolm wrote:
Practice harder. Nothing else does them any good in the end.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Mantras
Content:
Namdrol said:
Nope.

ChangYuan said:
Great! Would you happen to know of a good site to get the english translations of these, as well as a pronunciation guide?

Malcolm wrote:
They are pretty much pronounced as they are spelled.

All 'a' sounds in Sanskrit sound as in "fall", only difference is in length ā is twice as long as a. 'I' sounds like "ee" as in "he" again, if there is a macron i.e. ī, double the length.

"ai' sounds like a cross between "bye" and "bay", it is kind of in between those two depending on region.

When reciting mantras sutra style, sing them out loud melodiously.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Mantras
Content:
ChangYuan said:
Are there any mantras that people use regularly in the Mahayana traditions besides the Amitabha's name, and the daimoku in Nichiren? I personally find chanting practice to be very focusing, and am always interested in what others do for that type of practice.


Namdrol said:
Om mani padme hum -- Avalokiteshavara
Om tāre tuttāre ture svāhā -- Tārā
Om a ra pa cha na dhiḥ -- Manjushri
Om muni muni mahāmuni śākyamuni svāhā -- Buddha
Tadyatha gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svāhā -- Prajñāparamita.
Tadyatha om bhaisajya bhaisajya mahābhaisajya rājā samudgate svāhā -- Medicien Buddha

ChangYuan said:
Aren't the Manjushri, Medicine Buddha and Prajñāparamita mantras that require empowerments?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Mahayana Mantras
Content:
ChangYuan said:
Are there any mantras that people use regularly in the Mahayana traditions besides the Amitabha's name, and the daimoku in Nichiren? I personally find chanting practice to be very focusing, and am always interested in what others do for that type of practice.


Malcolm wrote:
Om mani padme hum -- Avalokiteshavara
Om tāre tuttāre ture svāhā -- Tārā
Om a ra pa cha na dhiḥ -- Manjushri
Om muni muni mahāmuni śākyamuni svāhā -- Buddha
Tadyatha gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svāhā -- Prajñāparamita.
Tadyatha om bhaisajya bhaisajya mahābhaisajya rājā samudgate svāhā -- Medicien Buddha


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:
seraphim said:
So Tokdens are different from repas? Thay all engage in extensive Tsa Lung retreats right?

Malcolm wrote:
Togdens are usually monks, who do not cut their hair after retreat. But not always.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
This is very well put, thank you.
But I wonder (meaning, politely, that I am not disagreeing with your main point) if the root of the mistake might actually be starting with the assumption of "I" , which is only then later subject to the question of "is" or "is not".

Malcolm wrote:
When we get down to the basic problem, we have an appearance. Then we give it a label. Identification follows appearance. Then conventional discourse can ensue. Underneath the all identifications is the idea of "is".



PadmaVonSamba said:
I have found that a hurdle for some new students of the dharma is approaching the understanding of sunyata from a sort of deconstructionist starting point. For example, they might say "here is a table but it doesn't have any real existence" and then try to talk themselves into the idea that somehow the table isn't there.

Malcolm wrote:
Notions of 'is' and 'is not' lead us swiftly away from dependent origination. That is why Buddha and Nagarjuna criticized them.



PadmaVonSamba said:
If they approach the situation a little differently, saying, "there is nothing inherently there which can be (in essence) found to be a table" then the idea that we merely but labels on composite phenomena makes more sense, and the question of "is" or "is not" becomes moot, because, beginning with that understanding, no presumption of an object has been made.

Malcolm wrote:
Differentiating essences and existences is no different than trying differentiate things and their characteristics.

There is no table in a a table. Some people are helped with the idea there is no inherent table on a table, but then what often happens, is that they get hung up on the table, just the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 10:04 AM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
[
and so what you are saying is that if it is not the result of cause, it cannot be experienced.

Malcolm wrote:
"it cannot be experienced..." by something arisen from causes.


PadmaVonSamba said:
If we refer to the 12 links of dependent arising and say that they are beginning-less, how does begingingless-ness differ from what we would refer to as being eternal?

Malcolm wrote:
Relatively speaking, every instant is impermanent, even though the 'chain' of instants has no beginning. The point of dependent origination is that no conditioned entity can arise from anything other than another conditioned entity. All causes are themselves effects, and all effects are themselves causes. There is no room in the logic of dependent origination for a cause that is not an effect of some other cause -- hence there can be no beginnings of any kind at all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 6:36 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:
adinatha said:
There is a Prajapati lineage 2500 years. Anyway who has the repa lineage in Kagyu? I think Drukpa. It think it's small now.

dzoki said:
Not really, Drukpas mostly have togdens nowadays, Barom Kagyu is really a repa lineage. Even today there are several repas of Barom Kagyu in Tibet.

Namdrol said:
Nyingmapas never had repas. That is strictly a Kagyu thing.

N

dzoki said:
What about Dungtso Repa, the later?

Malcolm wrote:
Not familiar with his Namthar.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Nyingma and Kagyu produce more realized masters. It's not a bunch of crap.

Malcolm wrote:
It's a bunch of crap. You only say this because you are completely unfamiliar with the annals of Gelug masters.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
Other Buddhists would say they are experiencing the eternal Buddha.


Namdrol said:
One cannot experience anything that is eternal.

PadmaVonSamba said:
what about sunlight?


Malcolm wrote:
Sunlight is not eternal since it is produced.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
If it is, I'm sorry. I'm not afraid to call it like I see it. Not all lineages are equal, I'm sorry to say. That's just a fact.

Malcolm wrote:
All four lineages have produced masters of high realization and will continue to. Somehow, Kagyus and Nyingmapas always propagate this bullshit that their lineages produce more realized persons. What a bunch of crap.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Perhaps it's just spin but the Kagyu don't think the Sakya have the ultimate realization lineage anymore.

Malcolm wrote:
Sectarian bullshit.



adinatha said:
What is more likely the case is that Repas did not form institutions since they were basically Buddhist sadhus.
So then where's his sadhu lineage? Indian sadhus have really old lineages.

Malcolm wrote:
The repa lineage still exists in Kagyu. Anyway, Tibet is not India. And, there is no sadhu lineage older than 1500 years. I doubt many are any older than three or four hundred years.

adinatha said:
So what? He didn't have enough power to grow his own lineage. To hell what the monks say, even if he was vilified if he had the mojo he could have carried on with his repa lineage. Nyingmapas have repa masters still.

Malcolm wrote:
Nyingmapas never had repas. That is strictly a Kagyu thing.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
Other Buddhists would say they are experiencing the eternal Buddha.


Malcolm wrote:
One cannot experience anything that is eternal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 29th, 2011 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Rechungpa's lineage which includes this stuff when to Drukpa Kagyu, AFAIK. You can get these docs and read them. Known as "Rechungpa's Hearing Lineage."

Malcolm wrote:
I was responding to your assertion that after Tilopa, karmamudra practice was not important. But this is clearly false given all the lineages from Tilopa that are present in Sakya.


adinatha said:
The problem I see with the path of desire is lineage. I don't think folks have lineage that combines the path of desire with the lineage of blessings and the lineage of ultimate realization. At least, not in the Kagyu/Gelukpa/Sakya world. IMHO.

Malcolm wrote:
Quite alive and well in Sakya and Nyingma. Sakya lineages in particular have been preserved by the Khon family who have always been lay people.

adinatha said:
For the most part, the sarma path of desire is a dead lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in Sakya.

adinatha said:
You can only look to Drukpa, Drikung and to some extent Karma Kagyu to get a real full fledged sarma lineage of transmission, blessing and realization.

Malcolm wrote:
Or, you can receive Lamdre or the Sakya Cakrasamvara and Yogini transmissions, where this practice is alive and well.

adinatha said:
Look what happened to Rechungpa's lineage. It's basically dead too. Rechungpa did not have the karmic power to create something vast and long lasting, even though he spent his whole life with Milarepa.

Malcolm wrote:
What is more likely the case is that Repas did not form institutions since they were basically Buddhist sadhus.



adinatha said:
Gampopa who was with Mila for only one year, went on to establish enormous lineages which is awesome. So the Kagyu position makes sense, that Mila foresaw that Rechungpa wasn't going to be a big guru, and gave his lineage of blessing and ultimate realization to Gampopa who was peerless in his morality, trust and faith.

Malcolm wrote:
Its pretty clear to me that Kagyus white washed tantra ala Kadampa.

You can believe Tsang Nyon Heruka's Bio of Mila. I don't.

I am not saying that Gampopa was not an important student of Milarepa. He is definitely the founder of the Kagyu school. But he was not Milrepa's most important student. Mila's most important student, Rechungpa, was vilified by his monastic competition.

https://www.amazon.com/Biographies-Rechungpa-Routledge-Critical-Studiesi/dp/041559622X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
I think "are' is the plural form of "is".
If you say that asserting something is (or is not) a wrong view,
doesn't that assertion that it is a wrong view thus establish a wrong view?

Malcolm wrote:
I have already answered this and won't do so again.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: uncomfortable mantra question
Content:


Aemilius said:
For how long is a person a "murderer"?

Malcolm wrote:
For as long as he is satisfied with his action, does not regret it and confessed it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Report from the 2011 Buddhist Teachers Cinf.
Content:
kirtu said:
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=6,10263,0,0,1,0

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
They did not invite a single Sakyapa, Asian or Western.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: bloody Hindu Tara??
Content:
udyan said:
In any case be it same mantra or not from what I understand Hindu Tara was derived from Buddhist Tara. I read about a Hindu story that shows that Tara came from Buddhism. One of Hindu sages who's practice was not going anywhere was told to recite Tara's mantra to help with that.  He had to travel to the region where only Visnu in his form as Buddha (Buddha is an avatar of Visnu in Hinduism) would be able to teach him proper method, he was told to go to that region (China or Tibet).  Once there he received tantric teachings from Buddha and became a great practitioner.

Malcolm wrote:
There is considerable intertextuality between Hindu and Buddhist tantra. One cannot state that one definitively comes from the other. They borrowed from each other.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 6:43 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


cloudburst said:
Will you give a clear definition of the difference between a "view,"...

Malcolm wrote:
A view is a fundamental belief one holds about reality. For example, "everything exists" (sarva asti)

cloudburst said:
How can we know when something is presented as a view and when something is being presented as conventional discourse?

Malcolm wrote:
One can easily observe that common people, not educated in tenets, generally believe their statements about the existence and non-existence of things. When a pot is broken, for them it is not a pot anymore. It may have become a broken pot, or shards, but for them the pot that was there is no longer there and has thus become non-existent in their mind.

Likewise, they believe in simple reality of a pot that they can see. For them the pot "is".

When it comes to people trained in tenet systems, this question is easier, because of of course, those who subscribe to various Buddhist and non-Buddhist tenet systems subscribe to various sets of beliefs such as those who assert arising from an existent, those who assert arising from a non-existent and so on.

The Buddhas and Nagarjuna's target at based was really more oriented at the sort of naive realism that people have, especially in regards to rebirth. Naively, some people believe that they exist, and that they will continue to exist after death. Other people, on the other hand, think that after death, they will not exist anymore.

The root of both these mistaken positions is "is" and "is not" -- for example "I exist now, and I will continue to exist after death" or "I exist now but when I die I will cease to exist".

We can assume then, based on people's statements and training whether they are naive realists or not, or are trained in some tenet system.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


Namdrol said:
When "is" and "Is not" are views, then they are wrong views and only wrong views.

PadmaVonSamba said:
When "is" and "Is not" are views, then they are wrong views?
...what does "are" mean?

Malcolm wrote:
it is a form of the verb "to be" used to make intelligible sentences.

The question you should really be asking is "What constitutes a view"?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


cloudburst said:
...please demonstrate my error.

Malcolm wrote:
When "is" and "Is not" are views, then they are wrong views and only wrong views. This of course is the reason for parsing "is" and "Is not" in quotations.

When used simply in conventional discourse and not as views, then of course 'is' and 'is not' are not wrong views since they are not being presented as views.

Your error is conflating the former with the latter.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I will not respond to sophistry on your part.

Unknown said:
What is a view of 'Is not', according to you?

Malcolm wrote:
A view of "is not" is "this thing that existed, this no longer exists now", as Nagarjuna points out:

The transformation of an existent into another
is the non-existent mentioned by people.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


cloudburst said:
When i saw this claim with your 'signature' attached, it naturally occurred to me that you were representing your own position.
According to you, whose position is "is-and-is-not are wrong views?"

Malcolm wrote:
"Is" leads to the view of eternalism. "Is not" leads to the view of annihilation.

Nāgārjuna states:

‘Is’ is holding to permanence,
‘Is not’ is an annihilationist view.
Because of that, is and is not 
are not made into a basis by the wise.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
cloudburst said:
When you said "is and is not are wrong views," is and is not became your position, becasue you claim here there are wrong views...

Malcolm wrote:
No, since I am not reporting my own position. I have not advanced either position, so I do not accept the fault that you ascribe.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 28th, 2011 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Unknown said:
Of course I generally agree, but the problem that you seem stuck with is that not only are you using illusory language in order to escape an illusory prison, you are using it in a way that violates your own purpose. Once you accept contradiction in your own system, you have stripped the screw of your reasoning and can no longer make it turn.

Malcolm wrote:
The case you are making is that using forms of the verb "to be" amounts to making a philosophical commitment. But it does not.

Unknown said:
If "is" is wrong view, then you could also say that darkness comes from bright light.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a non-sequitor. You cannot force this consequence.

Unknown said:
If there is no necessary reason to avoid self-contradiction, anything can be claimed, and there can be no valid reason adduced to show that it is incorrect, as these reasons win conventional discourse depend on the law of non-contradiction, or excluded middle. You lose the liberating path.

Malcolm wrote:
"Is and is not" are not my positions. They are the positions of others {Samkhya, etc.]. Therefore, the fault of self-contradiction is not entailed. Either you accept the dualistic position of others and defend them, or you accept that asti and nasti are wrong views described by the Buddha as such.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 27th, 2011 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Well I guess politics aside, the question would be at what stage did Naropa practice karmamudra? Was it from the start or at a late stage?

Namdrol said:
I would imagine after he started showing signs of heat on the path of application.

adinatha said:
Well if the oral tradition is correct it would have been a time analogous to when Milarepa was joined by Tseringma and her four sisters.


Malcolm wrote:
Peter Alan Roberts notes that the later Kagyu tradition scrubbed the names of Milarepa's consorts. He also points out that sexual yogas were such an important part of Milarepa's transmission that Rechungpa refused to teach monks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 27th, 2011 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Well I guess politics aside, the question would be at what stage did Naropa practice karmamudra? Was it from the start or at a late stage?

Namdrol said:
I would imagine after he started showing signs of heat on the path of application.

adinatha said:
Well if the oral tradition is correct it would have been a time analogous to when Milarepa was joined by Tseringma and her four sisters.


Malcolm wrote:
Basically, heat on the tantric path of application is when one starts engaging in conduct such as wearing bone ornaments, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 27th, 2011 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Well I guess politics aside, the question would be at what stage did Naropa practice karmamudra? Was it from the start or at a late stage?

Malcolm wrote:
I would imagine after he started showing signs of heat on the path of application.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 27th, 2011 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:
adinatha said:
And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore.

Namdrol said:
Yes, this is true. This is based on many arguments you will find in Moonbeams of Mahamudra, for example.

adinatha said:
I should add, Drubpon Rinpoche also said Tilopa is the one who expressed to Naropa that karmamudra is a low level practice. Kagyu are not saying Gampopa monkified tantra. Rather, they are saying from the onset, Tilopa downgraded karmamudra and upgraded samayamudra and mahamudra. Also that this has its foundation in Saraha through Maitripa as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Tilopa must have thought that Naropa was a low-level practitioner then, since Naropa practiced karmamudra and so on. Actually, we know that Tilopa's attitude toward Naropa was not that great since Tilopa told Naropa that he would not achieve supreme siddhi.

I think the Kadampas "monkified" Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 27th, 2011 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:
adinatha said:
And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore.

Namdrol said:
Kunzang Dechen Lingpa emphasized that these practices were really quite important.

adinatha said:
But as you said it's a very different practice in the sense of one is working with the tigle descending, retaining, reversing and spreading. Right? In Nyingthig, the four blisses and bliss clarity and non-thought are at the moment. Again, it's a preliminary, right? If you have been introduced to rigpa, what's the use, really?

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, in the Nyinthig practice, one is working with the four blisses, descending, etc., just like the normal completion stage practice.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
but I am partial to the idea of a first cause.

Namdrol said:
The logic of dependent origination rejects first causes. This is the principle reason your view is not compatible with Buddhadharma. Buddha rejected first causes.

Serenity509 said:
What is the universe dependent on for its origination?

Malcolm wrote:
I already explained this, the collective karma (actions) of the sentient beings from the previous universe, ad infinitum. This is all very clearly and consistently explained in Buddha' teachings. We can understand that this really is the teaching of the Buddha because Hindus used to argue against dependent origination and so on, trying to prove that Ishvara creates the universe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:
adinatha said:
And the Kagyu lineage basically doesn't have a consort practice lineage anymore.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is true. This is based on many arguments you will find in Moonbeams of Mahamudra, for example.

However, the lineage of these kinds of practices are still quite active in Sakya and Nyingma; and presumably, Gelug and Jonang.

Kunzang Dechen Lingpa emphasized that these practices were really quite important. In Nyinthig, the preliminary practice of cultivating bliss in the trio of bliss, clarity and non-conceptuality is consort practice, and Longchenpa devotes an entire text to it alone in Lama Yangthig.

In the system of Ghantapada's five stages, first you work with a samayamudra (a visualized consort), then eventually you work with a karmamudra in the third, fourth and fifth stages.

What has happened in Tibet is that the three gsar ma schools have each taken a monolithic approach to the raw material of the writings and teachings of the Indian siddhas and masters. These monolithic approaches ride roughshod over the intricate details and variety found in Indian Buddhist siddha praxis. Also, the dim view that Tibetan kings took of mother tantra, and the practices of "union" and "liberation", etc., really affected the way the Kadampas interpreted the Dharma.

As far as Gampopa was concerned, he is really more into tattva than mahāmudra and so on, following the treatises of Maitripa. His nephew, Gomsthul asked:

"In terms of the view, what is common and what is superior?"

Gampopa replies:

"In common with cittamatra, everything is gathered into the mind. Cittamatrins however assert the mind as ultimate. Since the essence is that mind does not arise, [our view] is superior. Free from proliferation is common with Madhyamaka, [our view] is superior because of wisdom. The great vehicle of mantra does not assert aspects as true in common with the path of liberation; the mother tantra practitioners  meditate making bliss into the object. The practitioners of the great perfection meditates through making emptiness into an object. The practitioners of mahāmudra meditate through making equanimity into an object. Those are mental fabrications. 

Since reality (the essence that is not fabricated with the mind) is meditated, the essence is superior. 

The parts in common can be seen for yourself. If you understand what that practice has in common, the blessings are great."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
And the result innate is the three doors of liberation i.e. "Because the samadhis of the trio of pleasure, clarity and non-conceptuality occur, the three ṇāḍīs and the three vāyus are brought under control; one is liberated from the illnesses and the three types of spirits, and one actualizes the three doors of liberation."
All this can happen on the basis of shamata practice or with the recognition of the nature of mind, nondual.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in one lifetime. Here, we are in a simple disagreement. If it were true, then there would be no need for empowerment, etc. Sutrayāna would by itself be sufficient.


adinatha said:
Lord Jigten Sumgon teaches otherwise, that Sahaja Mahamudra is beyond Naro Chodruk.

Malcolm wrote:
I am pretty certain that Naro Chodruk is used a support.

adinatha said:
The tradition teaches that Naropa prophesied that all of Marpa's descendants would be greater than the previous.

Malcolm wrote:
You missed the point.

adinatha said:
Anyway, Gampopa began teaching Mahamudra without channels and winds.

Malcolm wrote:
According to both Kongtrul and according to what Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso told me personally when I asked him about so called "sutra mahāmudra", they both say that Gampopa taught a non-tantric mahāmudra in order to pacify people he felt were not ready for Vajrayāna practice. So he taught them shamatha and vipashyāna in terms of mahāmudra view. But I have also ready passages in Gampopa's works where he criticizes mahāmudra as well.


adinatha said:
Basically, you didn't explain blessings. There's something more, related to interdependence and association with realized beings, elimination of doubt, etc., along with methods that allows one to realize the innate faster. Then, bliss clarity and nonconcept states are like pointed out directly. That alone calms the channels and winds.

Malcolm wrote:
I felt I explained it adequately. There is nothing more than meeting one's guru, time etc., and one's karmic readiness for the teachings. What more could you need?

Everything else has to do with Guru Yoga, which I already mentioned above (according to the Guhyasamaja system). Guru Yoga is the practice for the best student that bypasses the need for the two stages and working with channels and cakras. People think that there is only a devotional aspect to Guru Yoga, but that is not true. Guru Yoga works directly with the anahatabindu in the heart and can directly cause the winds and so on to withdraw into the central channel.

There are two paths to realizing mahāmudra, the path of the two stage, or the path of guruyoga. Otherwise, there is no other path for realizing mahāmudra.

adinatha said:
Milarepa explained it as "bliss waves."

Malcolm wrote:
This is probably a bad translation. I would have to see the Tibetan passage.

adinatha said:
The master's state, and our mirror-like awareness should be sufficient for recognition of the nonconceptual state.

Malcolm wrote:
This is what the Nyingmapas and the Kagyus maintain. It is hard to test, since as we know, no one gets through being a Tibetan Buddhist for long without taking a major empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


Namdrol said:
Emptiness is the abandoning of wrong views itself.

But there are only two wrong views i.e. "is" and "is not".

N

cloudburst said:
Wrong view.
Can't say "is" is wrong view while saying "Emptiness is..."
Self contradiction.

Malcolm wrote:
Such is the nature of language and the reason conventional discourse, however necessary, is predicated on cognitive error. Relative truth, such as it is, is a product of a deluded cognition. The error that relative truth rests on are the two views "is" and "is not". Nevertheless, we need to resort to conventional discourse in order to communicate the flaws of conventional discourse and so it is necessary to resort to the use of the verb "to be" in all its many forms in order to form intelligible sentences.

Blame the game, not the player.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: 'death meditation''
Content:


Will said:
Thanks Kirt, but I was thinking of an obscure aspect of phowa that Mullin translates as "forceful projection" (grong 'jug).  One can actually revitalize & thus inhabit a corpse (recently dead I guess).

Malcolm wrote:
right, but you do leave your own body behind.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: 'death meditation''
Content:
Will said:
I do not get this practice.

Is the fact of the body being held back from normal dissolution a side-effect of the subtle mind meditation or a deliberate part of the practice?  If the latter, to what end & purpose is the body held back from its return to the elements?

Namdrol said:
As long as the mind is certain dhyānas, the body will not decompose.

There is no purpose per se.

Will said:
Thanks Malcolm; but does this suggest that time spent in "certain dhyanas" will forstall some of the aging process and thus lengthen life of the body somewhat?

Could there be also a purpose, for very advanced practitioners, that those days or weeks of tukdem be used to seek another physical body to transfer to?  I have forgotten the name of this practice, from the Six Yogas of Naropa, I recall.

Malcolm wrote:
For as long as the life indriya is not separated from the body, it will not decay. The separation of the life indriya is prevented by being in a state of samadhi at the time of death.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
but I am partial to the idea of a first cause.

Malcolm wrote:
The logic of dependent origination rejects first causes. This is the principle reason your view is not compatible with Buddhadharma. Buddha rejected first causes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:
adinatha said:
I see. Then, there's the Co-Emergent Mahamudra which is less gradual than Five-Fold Path.

Malcolm wrote:
There is not one monolithic sahajamahamudra. For example, most texts in Kagyu called "sahaja mahamudra" concern the four yogas. Gyalpo Rinpoche says in the mahamudra section of his book on five-fold mahamudra:

Maitripa, the lineage holding disciple of the main disciple of master Nagarjuna, Savaripa,asserts that one should introduce the path of means to the person of gradual capacity, and introduce [mahamudra] directly to the person of immediate capacity.


adinatha said:
Why would it be less gradual if it doesn't make use of channels? Or it does but as a function of the deity and guru yogas, which brings on bliss, clarity and nonthought and on that basis Mahamudra can be recognized?

Malcolm wrote:
It is because the creation stage of the five-fold mahāmudra is considered profound. Gyalpo Rinpoche considers this to be a really important point in his book:

Since that deity, the clear appearance of instantaneous awareness [rig pa skag gcig ma] includes all of the crucial points of the creation stage into one, the profound creation stage is mahamudra.

This is also the case in Sakya. Sachen says:

As such, if one understands the dharmadhātu,
spiritual practice possessing characteristics is not possible;
if one also meditates the creation stage with that [understanding],
[the creation stage] is spiritual practice without characteristics.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:
adinatha said:
In Five-Fold Path, Six Yogas are not practiced. Thoughts?

Malcolm wrote:
Five-fold mahāmudra is less gradual. Naro chodrug is more gradual.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
All masters will tell you that the reality of Mahamudra and Dzogchen are identical. What is the difference between Mahamudra without a base of tantra and Dzogchen?

Namdrol said:
Method: mahamudra without tantra is just perfection of wisdom.

Method, ultimately, is the most important difference between sutra and tantra.

If you argue that the difference between mahāmudra and perfection of wisdom is guruyoga, I will just respond that guruyoga is a unique method of Annutarayoga tantra.

So it all boils down to method. Likewise, the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra is method. There are also differences in the way the basis is explained and so on, but mostly, the difference is in method. If you are not using Dzogchen methods, you are not practicing Dzogchen. For example, in Kalacakra one works with visions, but it is not the same as thogal, as Dudjom Rinpoche clearly points out in his book.

N

adinatha said:
Okay. Thank you for your continued patience and time. How do you explain blessings? They are just method? You've cited dohas which say the innate cannot be taught. The Kagyu teach that the innate can be discovered through blessings.

Malcolm wrote:
The Hevajra Tantra explains it very nicely:

Here there is no method and wisdom,
the appearance of true reality,
can’t be described by another, the innate
cannot be found anywhere,
but one can understand it in dependence on the Guru, 
time and method, and from one’s merit.

For example, Dombhi Heruka divides the innate into three aspects: cause, method and result.

The cause innate is the nature of the mind.

The method innate is fifteen innate dharmas:

...the innate three ṇāḍīs in the body, innate trio of exhalation, inhalation and abiding of the breath; and the innate as the three poisonous afflictions of the mind6; nine dharmas. In those innates, there is the inner obstacles, the innate three combined diseases; the outer obstacles the innate three demons. 
Now then, the diseases are one, vata; pitta and blood both are counted as one; and kapha are three. The three demons are male class, female class, and nāgā. 
Now fifteen dharmas exist from the beginning of the body’s development, and therefore are the fifteen innate dharmas.

The three innate experiences of bliss, clarity and non-conceptuality arise on the basis of these fifteen dharmas.

And the result innate is the three doors of liberation i.e. "Because the samadhis of the trio of pleasure, clarity and non-conceptuality occur, the three ṇāḍīs and the three vāyus are brought under control; one is liberated from the illnesses and the three types of spirits, and one actualizes the three doors of liberation."

Often people have a very restrictive concept of what "sahaja" means. Also the channels in your body are sahaja, the fact that you have one face and two arms is "sahaja" -- that is why two armed, one faced forms of Cakrasamvara and so on are called "sahaja" i.e. natural. In sahaja practice, unlike lower tantra and sutra, we do not reject anything.

Also, for example, the third Karmapa's commentary on Sahaja Mahamudra remarks that Sahaja Mahamudra is practiced in conjunction with Naro Chödruk.

Etc.

Finally, people have a funny idea for example that Tilopa hitting Naropa on the head was the end of Naropa's path. They don't realize that that was the beginning and it was only after that that Tilopa gave Naropa empowerments, practices connected with the channels and so on.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Refutation of Advaita
Content:
vinodh said:
Hi,

I had been reading Adi Shankara's refutation of the various Buddhist Theories.

I want to know, if there are any Buddhist Texts which directly refutes Advaita (as propounded by Adi Shankara).

Thanks

V


Namdrol said:
Not directly.

vinodh said:
Does that mean, the Buddhists of Shankara's time didn't attempt to hit back at Advaita directly :-/ ? while the Advaitin-s were aiming directly at the Buddhists !!

V

Malcolm wrote:
The Tarkajvala contains a general refutation and complaint about Advaita (basically saying, the Buddha asserted non-arising first, so why aren't you guys Buddhists) declaring that it was in the end very hard to distinguish Advaita from Madhyamaka.

Shantarakshita's Tattvasamgragha contains a rebuttal of the Advaita notion of permanent citta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Refutation of Advaita
Content:
vinodh said:
Hi,

I had been reading Adi Shankara's refutation of the various Buddhist Theories.

I want to know, if there are any Buddhist Texts which directly refutes Advaita (as propounded by Adi Shankara).

Thanks

V


Malcolm wrote:
Not directly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: 'death meditation''
Content:
Will said:
I do not get this practice.

Is the fact of the body being held back from normal dissolution a side-effect of the subtle mind meditation or a deliberate part of the practice?  If the latter, to what end & purpose is the body held back from its return to the elements?

Malcolm wrote:
As long as the mind is certain dhyānas, the body will not decompose.

There is no purpose per se.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 26th, 2011 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Does Dzogchen actually "abandon" or does it just "see through/go beyond/transcend?

Malcolm wrote:
Discards, abandons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
conebeckham said:
...Depends on how you understand the "two truths," but no, Dzokchen does not abandon the two truths.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually it does.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
conebeckham said:
aha, so-called "Ordinary Mind" is beyond mind!

I never liked that translation of Tamal Gyi Shepa anyway.  That paper on Gampopa, in the Dzokchen/Tsong Khapa thread, had a better translation......though I can't remember it right now.

What's interesting, at least to me, is that "Rang Jung Yeshe" or Tamal Gyi Shepa or whatever you want to call it is actually coemergent with conceptuality....like water and milk mixed.  Yet not the same...

Malcolm wrote:
tha mal in this context means "completely unmodified", "left in its original state".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Differences between the schools
Content:


kirtu said:
As far as the nature of mind goes: most Gelug and Sakya teach that Buddha Nature is a seed...

Malcolm wrote:
The official Sakya view is that the qualities of buddhahood are naturally present [lhun grub] from the beginning in sentient beings, but that transformation [of a sentient being into a buddha] and natural presence [i.e. of buddha qualities] are non-contradictory. So the Sakya view is a little more nuanced then merely saying tathāgatagarbha is a "seed".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
All masters will tell you that the reality of Mahamudra and Dzogchen are identical. What is the difference between Mahamudra without a base of tantra and Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Method: mahamudra without tantra is just perfection of wisdom.

Method, ultimately, is the most important difference between sutra and tantra.

If you argue that the difference between mahāmudra and perfection of wisdom is guruyoga, I will just respond that guruyoga is a unique method of Annutarayoga tantra.

So it all boils down to method. Likewise, the difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra is method. There are also differences in the way the basis is explained and so on, but mostly, the difference is in method. If you are not using Dzogchen methods, you are not practicing Dzogchen. For example, in Kalacakra one works with visions, but it is not the same as thogal, as Dudjom Rinpoche clearly points out in his book.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
TMingyur said:
Even in the General Mahayana forum all there is is the talk in terms of tibetan buddhism and vajrayana. Vajrayanists seem to have acquired Mahayana in public media. But I think that they are just the loudest .... maybe also the proudest.

Kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
Nah, just the only ones that present Mahāyāna based on Indian commentarial sources.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:


kirtu said:
Shaking one hundred world systems and illuminating a hundred world systems refers to wisdom attainment and can also refer to one hundred rebirths at the level of the 1st bhumi.  So it depends on how this sutra was actually intended.

Malcolm wrote:
According to Mahasiddha Virupa, it means in one's lifetime, not in one hundred lifetimes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 8:59 PM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Then I read that in the Oral Instructions of Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu that visions and natural state are not practiced separately. Only two of thirty something masters in Zhang Zhung even mention visions.


Malcolm wrote:
I think you are a smart guy, but I also think you jump to unwarranted conclusions. I don't have time to address the rest of your post point for point. In short, you have written many things in it with which I am not in agreement.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 10:04 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Perhaps yours doesn't. Ours does. And my teacher got another outline of the pith instructions from His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche and theirs has the same breakdown.

Malcolm wrote:
The inferior intellect thing is in a previous section.


adinatha said:
Not so. The part about the winds is for medium capacity, and karmamudra for inferior capacity.

Malcolm wrote:
Then according to you all Indian mahasiddhas are inferior capacity since they all used karmamudra for realization. Tibetan siddhas are somehow superior since the Kadampas discarded it. Even Milarepa and Marpa are inferior, according you, since they used karmamudra for realization.


adinatha said:
That is not the same thing. Besides, the name Thogal and separating it out from Tregcho is sort of a new fangled invention.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, you heard that from me. Still, there is no thogal in the dohas.

adinatha said:
Why not? Padmavajra was circa 700-800 CE and so was Saraha I.

Malcolm wrote:
Padmavajra is mid 9th century -- 150 years after Saraha I. Saraha I did not have a human guru.






adinatha said:
That might be a nice point for discussion, and/or might impact what someone is practicing at lineage X, but I don't agree there are different 'od gsal types.

Malcolm wrote:
That's your bad, then.


adinatha said:
We have already discussed this. As I pointed out to you, Gyalwa Yangonpa points out that Mahamudra is superior to 'od gsal because in the state of 'od gsal as described in sarma tantras and the six yogas of Naropa, there are no appearances.
'od gsal is being used in different ways as relates to methods. I'm talking beyond two stages here.

Malcolm wrote:
Too late to change your tune.



adinatha said:
This supports what I'm saying.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.




adinatha said:
Dzogchen has been inventive. Then, there's this stuff Saraha says in his Doha.

Malcolm wrote:
You are seeing mirages.



adinatha said:
I don't know.

Malcolm wrote:
All four schools have the Sahaja Mahamudra lineage. That is why a discussion of it is included in the Vima Nyinthig.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
There is no Dzogchen in Saraha's tradition.

dzoki said:
This is of course true, however it is possible that Saraha and other mahasiddhas practiced atiyoga. For example in a personal conversation Lobpon Ogyan Tenzin mentioned to me that there is a sanskrit text on three inner tantras written by Naropa which was discovered in Nepal.

Malcolm wrote:
The terms "Anuyoga" and "atiyoga" are not unique to the Nyingma tradition. I have found them sprinkled about other texts. The way they are used in the Nyingma tradition is unique to that school and are not used in the same way in any gsar ma text I have ever read.

dzoki said:
He also said that the reason why there was no atiyoga in gsar ma wave is that first of all new translators inaccurately translated some of the sanskrit texts

Malcolm wrote:
Sectarian Bullshit.


dzoki said:
and second of all since most of them came to India for rather brief periods Indian acharyas did not see it fitting to transmit such precious precepts to the students from the land of barbarians.

Malcolm wrote:
As above.


dzoki said:
One of the examples of such incomplete transmissions might be kye’i rdo rje rgyud kyi rgyal po in two chapters.

Malcolm wrote:
No. This is a text I am very familiar with in terms of its Indian commentarial tradition. Indian commentators also had to explain why there were only two sections.


dzoki said:
Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche once mentioned that he had a series of dreams where he read two aditional chapters of this tantra, which makes it Hevajra tantra in four chapters, chapter number 3 was concerned with anuyoga and chapter number four was concerned with atiyoga.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. I know.

dzoki said:
It is possible that in our dimension only first two chapters of this tantra were revealed, but it is also possible that Tibetans were able to procure only these two from their Indian teachers.

Malcolm wrote:
Originally, the longer one supposedly was available, we have some citations of it sprinkled in various commentaries, notably, Vajragarbha's commentary. But in general, all we have in India is the two sections.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
Adamantine said:
Yeah but why not refer to an image of a mahasiddha looking Buddhist, rather than a Hindu Baba? Unless you're saying the Buddhist of the west will be Hindus? Or maybe you know something special about that Baba. . .


Malcolm wrote:
I am saying that you won't be able to tell whether someone is hindu, buddhist, or whatever.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:


kirtu said:
However I agree that that spirit will be the heart of Tibetan Buddhism esp. in the West going forward.

Malcolm wrote:
You have understood the point of the photo. I would modify your statement a little however e.g. "that spirit will be the heart of Tantric Buddhism..."

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Finally, Moskaragupta indicates day and night yogas with visual signs.

Namdrol said:
This refers to the signs of smoke, fire flies, etc., the signs of the dissolution of the elemental vāyus in the central channel

adinatha said:
Are you familiar with Moksaragupta or are you speculating? Because the Doha and commentary are not about path of channels and winds. It's about the innate. And Saraha and commentators all trounce the path of means.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I am familiar with Moksakaragupta. It is as I said the signs I mentioned are the signs being referred to.

Sahaja is the result, among other things. As the Hevajra Tantra says "The innate is said to be awakening".

Completion stages are the means to realize that.

I don't believe that Saraha really slighted creation and completion stage. If he did, why would he have bothered to pass on Guhyasamaja, Cakrasamvara and so on?

Also Virupa, for example says:

Some are completely tortured with empowerment rites,
some always count their rosary saying hūm phat,
some consume shit, piss, blood, semen and meat,
some meditate the yoga of nadi and vāyu, but all are deluded.

But we know quite well that Virupa attained realization with a karmamudra. So there must be another meaning. It is as Tilopa says

If one relies on a karmamudrā, the wisdom of bliss and emptiness arises, 
...
if one has no desire the wisdom of wisdom of bliss and emptiness will not blaze.

He also says:

Practitioners of mantra, of the perfections, 
of discipline, and of the sutras and so on
do not see the luminosity of mahāmudra,
with their own texts and theories;
luminosity is not seen, obscured with such wishful thinking.

All of these warnings are in place so that practitioner does not lose the main point in getting attached to various experiences that arise in creation and completion stage. They are not informing people to abandon the practice of the two stages.


adinatha said:
Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no Dzogchen in Saraha's tradition.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:



Adamantine said:
Is that Baba really a Buddhist?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
An important consideration, is what we need in the West, as opposed to what Tibetans need on their own cultural context.

Me, I like a stripped down, tantric cultus form of Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 1:30 AM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
Adamantine said:
It is clear in the case of reincarnation lineages where Tibetans are adamant that there can not be more than one, such as the Karmapa-- that they are not referring to nirmanakaya in the proper sense...

Malcolm wrote:
There has been more than one Karmapa several times in history. But because of the money and power game, only one can be put on the Tshurphu throne.

Adamantine said:
So Namdrol even if some of these reincarnation lineages are 1st, 4th, and 7th level Bodhisattvas are they still not of benefit to beings? And because they can still lose clarity and "fall", isn't it more important to recognize them and give them the proper training from an early age to increase the likelyhood of continuing the ascent through the Bhumis rather than falling?

Malcolm wrote:
Sapan writes:

"It is taught in the Sutra of the Ten Stages that because of being born for an instant, one hundred twelve qualities are attained; one hundred samadhis are attained, in that equipoise, one sees one hundred Buddhas; one understand their blessings; one shakes one hundred world realms; one goes to one hundred Buddhafields; one hundred world realms are made to appear; one thoroughly ripens one hundred sentient beings; one lives for one hundred eons; one enters the upper and lower limits of the one hundred eons; one opens one hundred doors of dharma; one teaches in one hundred bodies; also each body teaches a retinue having a hundred Bodhisattvas..."

I think most Tibetans would imagine that the person above was a fully awakened Buddha, and not a mere first stage bodhisattva.

N







Adamantine said:
And if an 8th level Bodhisattva teacher has many students that break their samaya in serious ways, this will not affect the teacher at all, not even the appearance of the teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
How could it?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Karma
Content:
mudra said:
“Therefore whatever originates dependently,
Though primordially free of intrinsic existencee,
Appears as if it does [possess intrinsic existence],
So you taught all tnhis to be illusion-like.”

In Praise of Dependent Origination, Je Tsongkhapa

Crypto-realist is your label. I don't see Je Rinpoche as being a 'concealed/hidden' realist at all - but this is of course an old debate. As you well know Je Rinpoche devotes a huge portion of the Lam Rim Chen Mo to a discussion of sunyatta and the conventional.

Malcolm wrote:
"As the relative is merely an illusion, the true relative’s efficient ability of arising from cause and condition [55/a] is satisfactory when not investigated; but if investigated cannot bear the weight of reasoning."
-- Rongzom

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Karma
Content:
mudra said:
I think I'm the guy who is always parroting "illusion-like not illusion"

Namdrol said:
This kind of view is crypto-realisms. Things are either illusory, or they are real. There is no middle ground of "illusion-like".

N

mudra said:
Karma gives results that are experienced. Illusions do not function, except perhaps as deception. Doesn't mean that just because karma exists that it has to have it's own inherent existence.

Malcolm wrote:
Dreams give results that are experienced. Illusions appear to function. That is all. Now, if you are a Gelugpa, your view is ok, since their view is crypto-realist. But if you are a Nyingmapa, your view is very poor. Rongzom Chopan devotes an entire book to proving that all phenomena (including full awakening) are completely equivalent with illusions and criticizes the notion that they are only "like" illusions.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 25th, 2011 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Namdrol said:
However, Buddhism and the Buddha explicitly rejects the notion of design.

Serenity509 said:
Does the universe appear to be a cosmic accident or does it appear designed?

Malcolm wrote:
It appears to have arisen based on causes and conditions -- that is all. In other words, everything in the universe is dependently arisen, also the universe is dependently arisen.




Namdrol said:
We don't care about "transpersonal" experience in Buddhism.
"Transpersonal" means beyond the personal. I think Buddhism could agree that whatever spiritual essence there might be to the universe, it is not a personal God.

Malcolm wrote:
The universe as no essence, that what "dependent origination" means "no essence".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
It also explains the apparent design we observe in the universe and what we encounter in mystical experience, the transpersonal presence.

Malcolm wrote:
However, Buddhism and the Buddha explicitly rejects the notion of design.

The beginingless cycles of the universe, according to Buddhism, arises because of the beginingless collective karma of the limtless sentient beings in the universe.

Thus the creation and dissolution of the universe is not determined, but it is also not random. It is the outcome of all the infinite karmic decisions made by all sentient beings.

We don't care about "transpersonal" experience in Buddhism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
Theists that use buddhism as means may certainly do so allowably. Those same theists to then claim buddhism as religion to be theist...that is in error.

Serenity509 said:
I never claimed that Buddhism is theist. I did claim that Shin Buddhism's concept of Amida views Amida as an "other-power" that we can supplicate, which is true.


Malcolm wrote:
Amida's aspiration was simple -- "if anyone says my name, they will be reborn in Sukhavati, otherwise, I will not become a Buddha." Since Amitabha Buddha became a Buddha, ergo, his aspiration is true, and everyone who says his name creates a cause for rebirth in Sukhavati.

Now then, the whole concept of "other-power" in Jodo shin shu is really based on this simple principle. A person of shinjin is someone who implicitly trusts Amitabha's aspiration and says his  name once. This is the basis of the debate between "once-calling" and "many-calling".

You will find all of Shinran's collected works here:

http://www.shinranworks.com/sitemap.htm " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The real source of this doctrine is not theistic on any level, but is related to the Buddhist concepts of "words of truth".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Serenity509 said:
If God could voluntarily limit himself in becoming man...

Malcolm wrote:
More gibberish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Pandeism asserts that God was at one point distinct from the universe, but for the sake of experiencing evolutionary existence, God became the universe.

Pure gibberish.

Serenity509 said:
How so?

Malcolm wrote:
God is always defined as permanent and unconditioned. The universe is impermanent and conditioned. By definition then, God cannot "become" the universe. Hence, this intellectual rabbit hole you are presented us with is pure gibberish.

Actually, not only can God not become the universe, he could not create the Universe either, because a conditioned result cannot have an unconditioned cause and so on.

If you study Abhidharma, Yogacara, Madhyamaka, and so on, you will discover why Buddhists consider all of this deism, theism, and so on, incoherent rubbish that does not lead to liberation.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
Nangwa said:
The tulku system is extremely limiting.
It limits the way we perceive non-titled teachers and it limits the capacity of qualified practitioners to transmit what they have experienced.
The tulku system is a big obstacle to so-called "Western" practitioners learning how to stand on their own two feet and confidently transmit the teachings to the next generation.
I don't have any use for the tulku system and have every intention of putting my teachers teachings in to practice so I can play an active roll in the transmission for the future generations of my family.

Malcolm wrote:
The primary reason the tulku system continues is that common Tibetans have faith in it. Monasteries that have no tulku also have no money since no one will make donations to them.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
kirtu said:
I don't think that it is true overall that Westerners "love pomp and personality cults".  Westerners are coming to terms with a spiritual view utterly foreign to what they have been taught and have to form an accomodation with rationalism and karma and rebirth.  Secondly Westerners really do not like pomp (except maybe the English ).

dzoki said:
...Also many people are ready to accept vajrayana empowerment, transmission and instruction from whomever without doing a serious research on who the Lama is, whether he/she is genuine or not, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
I agree -- in 1998 I watched a crazy person sit on Penor Rinpoche's throne in Green, NY, claim that Penor Rinpoche had told him in a dream the night before to announce that he was a tulku, and observed 200 westerners give this crazy guy prostrations while I sat in astonishment, apart from preventing the western student sitting around me from prostrating.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Where are the Gods?
Content:
Unknown said:
Pandeism asserts that God was at one point distinct from the universe, but for the sake of experiencing evolutionary existence, God became the universe.


Malcolm wrote:
Pure gibberish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Saraha, Moksaragupta and Dzogchen
Content:


adinatha said:
Finally, Moskaragupta indicates day and night yogas with visual signs.

Malcolm wrote:
This refers to the signs of smoke, fire flies, etc., the signs of the dissolution of the elemental vāyus in the central channel


adinatha said:
Sixth, the fruit is the rainbow body. Isn't this Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:
heart said:
Since this is the Bon part of this forum I guess the Buddha you are discussing in this thread is the Bon Buddha Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche. His life is incredibly similar to Buddha Shakyamuni, he was born a prince, had a wife and kids, left them to renounce the world and practice austerities. I take it that all caveman's remarks in this thread apply to Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche or did I miss something?

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
No, he/she was asking about Shakyamuni Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Karma
Content:
mudra said:
I think I'm the guy who is always parroting "illusion-like not illusion"

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of view is crypto-realisms. Things are either illusory, or they are real. There is no middle ground of "illusion-like".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
Adamantine said:
But I also understood that in general a highly realized Lama may also lose clarity...

Malcolm wrote:
Reincarnations (yang srid) are one thing, Tulkus (sprul sku), nirmanakāyas are another.

I do not have as high expectations for reincarnations (basically none) as I do for tulkus.

Above the eighth bhumi, a reincarnation cannot lose clarity since they have no more afflictive obscuration to lose. On the impure bhumis one still has afflictive obscurations.

The idea that someone achieves the upper bhumis through Vajrayāna methods, and then "loses" clarity, however, is an impossibility.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 9:24 AM
Title: Re: What brought you to the Dharma?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
What were the things that led you to the Dharma? Was it a book or a movie? A personal encounter? How old were you when you found yourself interested in Buddhism, and how many years has it been since?
I sure am nosy!


Malcolm wrote:
My good fortune and nothing else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 8:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


Tsongkhapafan said:
Conclusion: any system that abandons conceptuality, seeing it as faulty, will never lead to liberation and enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
And because you have this opinion, you will never understand Tsongkhapa's actual view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: Does Clear Light of Sleep = Jhana?
Content:


Enochian said:
Because its mental?

.

Namdrol said:
Because it is not grounded in a physical sensation.


Enochian said:
I think you can't give full detail because of samaya, so I concede.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not that, it is that meditative bliss is not bliss grounded in a physical sensation, therefore, one will never realize mahāmudra.

The Hevajra tantra states:

Where does bliss come from without the existence of the body?
Such a bliss cannot be described.
Bliss pervades all migrating beings 
in the form of pervaded and pervader;
just as the fragrance present in a flower
cannot be known without the flower’s existence;
in the same way, since form and so on won’t exist,
also bliss itself won’t be perceived.

The embodiment of bliss is a fundamental point in Vajrayāna. This is yet another reason Vajrayāna methods are faster and more profound.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: Does Clear Light of Sleep = Jhana?
Content:


Enochian said:
Because its mental?

.

Malcolm wrote:
Because it is not grounded in a physical sensation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Does Clear Light of Sleep = Jhana?
Content:
Namdrol said:
It's not the same kind of bliss.

N


Enochian said:
Because its not from within the center channel?

Malcolm wrote:
Because it is not physical.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Does Clear Light of Sleep = Jhana?
Content:
Enochian said:
Thats what I thought until I read part of this book online:

Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm

He basically uses nonconceptual bliss like Vajrayana.  For God's sake Bliss is in the title LOL

Namdrol said:
No, that is not possible.


Enochian said:
I don't know if you have access to this book, but you can read part of it online.

Bliss is the main focus of the book, without a doubt.

Malcolm wrote:
It's not the same kind of bliss.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: Does Clear Light of Sleep = Jhana?
Content:
Enochian said:
Thats what I thought until I read part of this book online:

Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm

He basically uses nonconceptual bliss like Vajrayana.  For God's sake Bliss is in the title LOL

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not possible.


