﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 11:03 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Ministry For the Future proposes a kind of autarky.

Kim O'Hara said:
Not really, when you look at the definition - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarky - and compare it to MOTF.
The Ministry of the title is in fact a UN body, and the whole project could not work without it.
The book's model is more of a mixed system, with big government driving a partial shift from market economies and bureaucratic dictatorships (a better term for most "communist" governments) towards regionalism and local control with socialist elements.


Kim


Malcolm wrote:
It precisely is this, “generally in an effort to build alternative economic structures or to control resources against structures a particular movement views as hostile.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 6:50 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:




Malcolm wrote:
Marxist socialism is dead. The market society has won. It had already won before Marx set one word to paper about political economy, in 1832, to be exact. The question now is: how can the market society be made to work for everyone and democracy.

Johnny Dangerous said:
“The market society” is, at this point basically destroying the planet. If humans don’t figure out a different method of economic organization there is no reason to think a system based on profit is going to reverse its course and suddenly start valuing new things. I’m not claiming to know what such a system entails, but to me the idea that present day capitalism can be made to “serve everyone” is nearly as crazy as the utopia preached by ardent Communists.

We are living in a time of insane wealth inequality that only appears to be growing.


Kim O'Hara said:
but a real worry.

"Capitalism Alone" appears to be a decent analysis but I can't see a solution in any of it that Malcolm has shared. Almost the only book I've seen that offers a solution is The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson. It's a sociopolitical agenda dressed as SF. Here's a good review of it - https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2020/10/the-ministry-for-the-future-a-novel-by-kim-stanley-robinson/


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Ministry For the Future proposes a kind of autarky.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 4:54 AM
Title: Re: When bureaucrats put their personal agenda ahead of what science can deliver, bad things happen.
Content:
ject said:
https://mishtalk.com/economics/bidens-solar-push-is-destroying-the-desert-and-releasing-stored-carbon
When bureaucrats put their personal agenda ahead of what science can deliver, bad things happen.

Malcolm wrote:
So one assumes then you recognize climate change is a problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: Why so gray?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The answer could not be clearer. In order to even meet the Dharma, one must have a certain amount of merit. If there are less Dharma practitioners in the world, it' clearly a reflection of the degeneration of merit, manifesting in the age of the five degenerations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
If you mean totalitarian, then that’s not necessarily the case. Totalitarianism isn’t really needed for a socialist economy to function. There are specific reasons and causes why it did in Russia a hundred years ago and in China. Both of those countries were already authoritarian states where the authority to rule was already associated with wielding supreme power. Lenin’s “Dictatorship of the proletariat” was believed necessary (our stick is bigger than your stick) by populations that had never known democracy. But socialism isn’t a dogmatic religion. It doesn’t have to be Leninism. It’s a basic premise regarding the prioritizing of social welfare.
Social welfare: good
Totalitarianism: bad.


Malcolm wrote:
Marxist socialism is dead. The market society has won. It had already won before Marx set one word to paper about political economy, in 1832, to be exact. The question now is: how can the market society be made to work for everyone and democracy.

Johnny Dangerous said:
“The market society” is, at this point basically destroying the planet.

Malcolm wrote:
We have been doing that long before the market society came into being. For example, how many megafauna are left in North and South America?



Johnny Dangerous said:
If humans don’t figure out a different method of economic organization there is no reason to think a system based on profit is going to reverse its course and suddenly start valuing new things. I’m not claiming to know what such a system entails, but to me the idea that present day capitalism can be made to “serve everyone” is nearly as crazy as the utopia preached by ardent Communists.

We are living in a time of insane wealth inequality that only appears to be growing.


Malcolm wrote:
If you are genuinely interested in such issues I suggest you give Capitalism Alone a through read:
The fact that the entire globe now operates according to the same economic principles—production organized for profit using legally free wage labor and mostly privately owned capital, with decentralized coordination—is without historical precedent. In the past, capitalism, whether in the Roman Empire, sixth-century Mesopotamia, medieval Italian city states, or the Low Countries in the modern era, always had to coexist—at times within the same political unit—with other ways of organizing production. These included hunting and gathering, slavery of various kinds, serfdom (with workers legally tied to the land and banned from offering their labor to others), and petty-commodity production carried out by independent craftspeople or small-scale farmers. Even as recently as one hundred years ago, when the first incarnation of globalized capitalism appeared, the world still included all of these modes of production. Following the Russian Revolution, capitalism shared the world with communism, which reigned in countries that contained about one-third of the human population. None but capitalism remain today, except in very marginal areas with no influence on global developments.
Milanovic, Branko. Capitalism, Alone (pp. 2-3). Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Isn’t this state of affairs a plea for change in the socioeconomic system? Doesn’t it follow that we should ditch the world of hypercommercialized capitalism in favor of an alternative system? The problem with this otherwise sensible argument is that we lack any viable alternative to hypercommercialized capitalism. The alternatives the world has tried have proved worse—some of them much worse. On top of that, discarding the competitive and acquisitive spirit that is hardwired into capitalism would lead to a decline in our incomes, increased poverty, deceleration or reversion of technological progress, and the loss of other advantages (such as goods and services that have become an integral part of our lives) that hypercommercialized capitalism provides. One cannot hope to maintain these while destroying the acquisitive spirit or dislodging wealth as the sole marker of success. They go together. This may be, perhaps, one of the key features of the human condition: that we cannot improve our material way of life without giving full play to some of the most unpleasant traits of our nature. This is, in essence, the truth that Bernard Mandeville gleaned more than three hundred years ago.

Malcolm wrote:
Milanovic, Branko. Capitalism, Alone (p. 185). Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition.

He summarizes his book into five kinds of capitalism that are possible going forward:
Classical capitalism. Workers have income from labor only, capitalists have income from capital only, and all capitalists are richer than all workers, that is, the income distributions of workers and capitalists do not overlap. There is only very minimal redistribution via taxes and transfers. Interpersonal inequality is high. Advantages of wealth are transmitted across generations. This form is also called Ricardo-Marx capitalism.

Social-democratic capitalism. Workers have income from labor only and capitalists have income from capital only, but not all capitalists are richer than all workers. There is significant redistribution through the tax and transfer system, including free or accessible public health care and education. Interpersonal inequality is moderate. Relatively equal access to education allows intergenerational income mobility.

Liberal meritocratic capitalism. Most people have some income from both labor and capital. The share of capital income increases with income level, such that the extremely rich have mostly capital income. But the most affluent (say, the top 5 percent) also have substantial labor income. The increase in the capital share as societies get richer, and the association of high capital and labor incomes in the same individuals, translate into greater interpersonal inequality. The tax and transfer system redistributes a significant part of total income, but social separatism, whereby the rich prefer to invest in private education and health systems, becomes more important. Intergenerational mobility is less than in social-democratic capitalism.

People’s capitalism. Everyone has approximately equal shares of capital and labor income. People’s incomes still differ; some have more of both capital and labor income. Increased capital share does not translate into greater interpersonal inequality, so inequality does not have a tendency to rise. Direct redistribution is limited, but free health care and education help intergenerational income mobility.

Egalitarian capitalism. Everyone has approximately equal amounts of both capital and labor income, such that a large increase in the capital share does not translate into greater inequality. Interpersonal inequality is low. The role of the state in redistribution is limited to social insurance. Relative equality of incomes ensures equality of opportunity. Libertarianism, capitalism, and socialism come close to each other.
Milanovic, Branko. Capitalism, Alone (pp. 215-216). Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition.

He sees liberal meritocratic capitalism either evolving into people's capitalism or merging with political capitalism (the present trend):
The more economic and political power in liberal capitalism become united, the more liberal capitalism becomes plutocratic and comes to resemble political capitalism. In the latter, political control is the way to acquire economic benefits; in plutocratic, formerly liberal, capitalism, economic power is used to conquer politics. The end point of the two systems becomes the same: unification and persistence of the elites. Elites may also believe that they are able to run society more effectively by using the technocratic toolkit of political capitalism. A transition toward political capitalism could be boosted if young people became increasingly disenchanted by mainstream parties that follow more or less the same policies, and consequently lost hope that democratic processes could lead to meaningful change. The objective of political capitalism is to take politics out of people’s minds, which can be more easily done when disenchantment
Milanovic, Branko. Capitalism, Alone (pp. 217-218). Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
Well if you generate it, that is a development stage. If you just think it always been there, that is just a thought.

Pema Rigdzin said:
If you visualize your fleshy heart, as a method to recollect its presence and function, have you generated it or merely recollected that which has been there but simply can’t be seen with your eyes?

heart said:
I left this discussion a while ago.

Malcolm wrote:
Magnus went beyond mind, going nowhere at all, e ma ho!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Sādhaka said:
but rather a kind of joke that you made.

Malcolm wrote:
Not, it is a real term. You can find it in my translation of the Sakya Lamdre material, forthcoming in August. I was joking, but I was also serious.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Well who knows.

It doesn’t pertain to me, and I’m not really an Dudjom lineage guy so much anyway; therefore whatever floats peoples boats I guess.

One thing though: There’s no precedent for that in any Root Tantra; and JLA even confirmed this to me in a personal email (who is obviously more than capable of searching TBRC etc. thoroughly).

Kai lord said:
In some treasure cycles, in accordance with the Ati style of effortlessness, one can even practice those yogas without a partner.

Malcolm wrote:
The old hastimūdra (yes, this is a real term, much to the consternation of the anti-fap movement). As they say, the yogi's best friend is his hand.

Kai lord said:
The so called right hand path.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people are lefties.

This thread went downhill fast...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



merilingpa said:
Well it might be called nongradual but there is something that needs to be done,right. Even if its already there you need to think of it or recollect it in some way.Thats my point.

Malcolm wrote:
The symbol of AGY is for direct introduction. But when we do AGY, we are reintroducing ourselves, integrating with nondual state of ཨ. It’s the same as SOV. When we sing SOV we are not thinking about the meaning of SOV, though there is a meaning. We are integrating nondually with the sound of SOV as we sing. It’s the same when we do any dzogchen mantra. We are never vusualizing anything or working with the mind at all. When we do AGY, it is the same. It’s not necessary to visualize anything in AGY, tHat’s the point. The symbol is there for explanation, not visualization.

merilingpa said:
I understand what you are saying , but if you do or recite a Dzogchen mantra you have to tell the mind to do so, no? So some kind of working with the mind is needed before you can integrate and go beyond the mind if you are not Samanthabadra.......

Malcolm wrote:
There is no where to go. Blo 'das, beyond mind, simply means one has dropped thought for instant presence, it isn't a state beyond the mind, actually. It does not mean one uses a concept to counteract concepts--that's the path of renunciation and transformation. In the path of self-liberation, concepts have always been liberated in and of themselves since the state of concepts is nonarising. That is what it means to be in the state of ཨ. Deciding to make a sound is certainly is an intention, which is liberated in and of itself, but it is not necessarily working with the mind, for example, when one engages in an analytical investigation for the nature of the mind. The mind and nature of the mind are not mutually exclusive phenomena. When one has not recognized the nature of the mind; mind is in control it seems hard and solid; when one has recognized the nature of the mind, pristine consciousness is in control, because the mind is not hard and solid. For example, if you have tasted a piece of ice, you know that ice melts and becomes water. Even if all the ice is still frozen, you know it is water and you do not have to concern yourself any longer about the nature of ice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 31st, 2023 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Kai lord said:
Yeah most people tend to forget that masters like Tsogyal and Yuthok were not only masters of Atiyoga but also Karmamudra and they were simply masters in handling their bindus....... so well that the latter even did a public display of Jalu

Malcolm wrote:
Equally to the point, you can't get there from here with relative bindus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
As to your second, Dudjom Rinpoche to John Giorno…


Sādhaka said:
I mean whatever skillful means Dudjom Rinpoche was employing there, I’m just speaking in general in regard to my previous post.

Malcolm wrote:
Dudjom Rinpoche was saying that gay men could practice union yogas with each other. This is pretty widely understood in the Dudjom Tersar community. After all, the rectum is a branch of the central channel.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


merilingpa said:
I agree fully with what you say but when you just say guruyoga it normally involves somekind of development before you become one with the guru and rests in that.

Malcolm wrote:
.
One does not become one with the guru in AGY, since one has never been separate from that to which one was is being introduced, that is, being introduced to one's own face/state/nature (ngo rang thog tu sprad). One just rests in the primordial state of ཨ.

rnal 'byor (nal mar 'byor ba) does not mean joining two things together. It means arriving in/encountering/settling in ('byor ba) one's real state (rnal ma).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
merilingpa said:
About the atiguruyoga, with respect, it involves something to be done before resting in trekchö. Whether you call this generation of something that is already there or recollection of something that is already there is more of a play with words. Or maybe we could call it recollection stage?,
a new yana maybe

Malcolm wrote:
It’s how we enter the primordial state. It’s nongradual, there are no stages, nothing to be done before.

merilingpa said:
Well it might be called nongradual but there is something that needs to be done,right. Even if its already there you need to think of it or recollect it in some way.Thats my point.

Malcolm wrote:
The symbol of AGY is for direct introduction. But when we do AGY, we are reintroducing ourselves, integrating with nondual state of ཨ. It’s the same as SOV. When we sing SOV we are not thinking about the meaning of SOV, though there is a meaning. We are integrating nondually with the sound of SOV as we sing. It’s the same when we do any dzogchen mantra. We are never vusualizing anything or working with the mind at all. When we do AGY, it is the same. It’s not necessary to visualize anything in AGY, tHat’s the point. The symbol is there for explanation, not visualization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
merilingpa said:
About the atiguruyoga, with respect, it involves something to be done before resting in trekchö. Whether you call this generation of something that is already there or recollection of something that is already there is more of a play with words. Or maybe we could call it recollection stage?,
a new yana maybe

Malcolm wrote:
It’s how we enter the primordial state. It’s nongradual, there are no stages, nothing to be done before.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
That said, mixed systems seem to have the best track record, i.e., high-taxing capitalism with a strong public service sector.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, egalitarian capitalism, as opposed to liberal meritocratic capitalism or political capitalism.

One of the issues Capitalism Alone points out it that’s elites are also part of the labor force, most so-called high value people work. Thus is quite different than before, when those with capital rarely also worked. So tne shape of labor has dramatically changed in post-war period.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 11:38 AM
Title: Re: Music time
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 9:55 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
ject said:
You go full socialist and USSR, North Korea, Mao's China etc. will happen.

PadmaVonSamba said:
If you mean totalitarian, then that’s not necessarily the case. Totalitarianism isn’t really needed for a socialist economy to function. There are specific reasons and causes why it did in Russia a hundred years ago and in China. Both of those countries were already authoritarian states where the authority to rule was already associated with wielding supreme power. Lenin’s “Dictatorship of the proletariat” was believed necessary (our stick is bigger than your stick) by populations that had never known democracy. But socialism isn’t a dogmatic religion. It doesn’t have to be Leninism. It’s a basic premise regarding the prioritizing of social welfare.
Social welfare: good
Totalitarianism: bad.


Malcolm wrote:
Marxist socialism is dead. The market society has won. It had already won before Marx set one word to paper about political economy, in 1832, to be exact. The question now is: how can the market society be made to work for everyone and democracy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 7:53 AM
Title: Re: Why so gray?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
This sums up the https://jhana.app/ I have in mind.

Malcolm wrote:
They'll be disappointed.

ChNN said to one women, who liked his explanations but was more interested in another teacher because she felt more "vibration," "I am sorry I cannot give you any vibration."

ject said:
The hair-bun and yoga pants crowd... aghh ( <- sound you make when you taste something truly disgusting ).
They have ruined everything, including yoga.

Malcolm wrote:
This was in the eighties, more like the Crystal woo woo people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 7:47 AM
Title: Re: There are so many wealth generating practices - which / what are the best ones?
Content:



Kai lord said:
Long life practice is not a simple as it looks or sounds on the surface. It involves multiple levels of practice and understanding along with benefits, hence it becomes a core practice for many people and masters.

Malcolm wrote:
Why must everyone insist on making things sound so difficult?

Kai lord said:
Not sure if its everyone but my choice of words are usually keep as simple as possible without leading to multiple forms of (mis)interpretations.

Malcolm wrote:
Long life practice is not a simple as it looks or sounds?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 7:28 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Jules 09 said:
So, Ati Guru Yoga is just a different name for The First Statement of Garab Dorje - Recognize your own nature.

!?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a practical application of all three, depending on the practitioner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 7:25 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


ject said:
I wonder, has he ever bothered to thank capitalism for financing his discussions on those particular topics.


Malcolm wrote:
That's a rather strange comment. For one, he basically shows that communism, rather than the end all be all that Marx thought it would be, instead turned out to be the fastest path to developing a capitalist economy, citing China, Vietnam, the Soviet Union, and so on.

ject said:
Socialism is the most painful path to capitalism.  (probably paraphrasing someone here)

Malcolm wrote:
But its the fastest.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


ject said:
I wonder, has he ever bothered to thank capitalism for financing his discussions on those particular topics.


Malcolm wrote:
That's a rather strange comment. For one, he basically shows that communism, rather than the end all be all that Marx thought it would be, instead turned out to be the fastest path to developing a capitalist economy, citing China, Vietnam, the Soviet Union, and so on.

Secondly, the whole point of his book is that capitalism won for a number of reasons, but not because capitalism and democracy go hand in hand. In fact, he makes the argument that autocracies may very well be more efficient and better suited to developing capitalist economies, because they do not have to suffer the inconveniences of laws and regulation. The principle issue he sees here, however, is that in the political capitalism of autocracies, there is infinitely more corruption than in liberal capitalist systems. But he also points out that the growing wealth gap makes autocracy more and more appealing to elites in liberal countries such as the UK and the USA:
The two types of capitalism, liberal meritocratic and political, now seem to be competing with each other. They are led, respectively, by the United States and China. But even independently of China’s willingness to make available and to “export” an alternative political and, to some extent, economic version of capitalism, political capitalism itself has certain features that make it attractive to the political elites in the rest of the world and not only in Asia: the system provides greater autonomy to political elites. It is also attractive to many ordinary people because of the high growth rates that it seems to promise. On the other hand, liberal capitalism has many well-known advantages, the most important being that democracy and the rule of law are values in themselves and both, arguably, can be credited with encouraging faster economic development through promoting innovation and allowing social mobility, and thus providing approximately equal chances of success for all. It is the reneging on some crucial aspects of this implicit value system, namely a movement toward the creation of a self-perpetuating upper class and polarization between the elites and the rest, that represents the most important threat to the longer-term viability of liberal capitalism.
Milanovic, Branko. Capitalism, Alone (pp. 10-11). Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition.

One of the things he states, which is really true:
Libertarian utopia of a small state can be reached only through protocommunist policies
Milanovic, Branko. Capitalism, Alone (p. 46). Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition.

He remarks:
If inequality is bound to continue increasing, and if the old tools used to combat it will no longer work as well, what tools should be used now? Here we not only need to think outside the box to find some new tools, but we must set ourselves an entirely new objective: We should aim for an egalitarian capitalism based on approximately equal endowments of both capital and skills across the population.
Milanovic, Branko. Capitalism, Alone (p. 46). Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition.

He suggests a few policies: three with regard to capital: (1) the middle class should be encouraged to invest more in the market, suggesting an insurance scheme to make sure the little guys do'nt get wiped out like they did in 2008. (2) Worker ownership through stocks, a policy Margret Thatcher endorsed, he points out, her "people's capitalism." (3) Inheritance taxes, which fund endowments to young people to give them a head start. With respect to labor: (1) investment in and standardization of public education; (2) a welfare system that everyone pays for and the elimination of private health care (3) immigration reform that permits temporary labor but mitigates citizenship applications and access to rights and privileges to state resources (i.e. your people can come work here, but you still bear the cost of their welfare).

His book is well worth reading, if you can get over being so reactionary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Lingpupa said:
But this is all within the circle of NNR and his system, isn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
We were having a discussion based on a specific practice in the DC.


Lingpupa said:
Am I right? I mean, these are different, sure, but how crucial is the difference really? Especially since it is known in other adjacent systems for deities or quasi-historical gurus (I'm thinking in particular about Guru Rinpoche) to be conceived of as having been present primordially.

Malcolm wrote:
The principle is understanding the indestructible bindu in the heart center is the basis, as it is present in a sentient being. The purpose of all gurus yogas is based on this principle. That bindu is there all the time. We don't create that. It is not like generating a little Padmasambhava in the heart. When we do generation of a little Padmasambhava, or some other deity dissolving into and residing in our heart center, the principle is the same as Ati guru yoga. Ati guru yoga just skips all the gradual steps of finding oneself in instant presence in that state.

There are many visualization practices in Dzogchen teachings. None of them belong to Anuyoga. There are many visualizations in Anuyoga, very interesting practices for getting into the essence of all nine yānas, but these, while very useful, are not atiyoga practices, per se.

The real difference is that ati yoga is by definition not based on mind, but rather, pristine consciousness. That means working the radiance of rig pa directly. Ati guru yoga is one way of doing that, and is the main way of doing that in the DC. But in his kindness, ChNN taught so many practices of anuyoga, if people like or require these methods, they are available for people to use. But he always stressed that the main practice is AGY and SOV. So of course, sometimes I do a mahāyoga style guru yoga with Guru Rinpoche, other times, an anuyoga style with Garab Dorje, Vimalamitra, etc. But most of the time I do ati guru yoga, and of course, in the DC, rather than reciting lineage prayers, we always do Ati Guru Yoga first, before we do anything else, because for us, Ati guru yoga is the essence of all the lineages we have received, since it is the state of knowledge to which our gurus, all them, directly or indirectly, have introduced us to. Therefore, in our community, we unify everything in ati guru yoga and yes, this is also what I primarily teach. I don't really see much point in giving transmissions of many deity practices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
krodha said:
Jñāna is the luminosity of the mind, fully active and engaged, not an unconscious state.

stong gzugs said:
Tell me more about it actually looks like for luminous mind to be "fully active and engaged", without any arising of consciousness or object-supports. What is "active"? What is it "engaged" with?

Malcolm wrote:
The part in red I understand to be Rendawa's continued rejection of the Jonang perspective. So, frankly, I understand his "gzhan stong" to be rather different than yours, the so-called "white" gzhan stong mentioned by HHDL, as opposed to "black" gzhan stong.

stong gzugs said:
As his final Kālacakra text, which I quoted above, shows, he came to accept some aspects of the gzhanstong view, and not others.

Malcolm wrote:
The part in red comes from the text you quoted, his final Kalacakra text, the Jewel Lamp. That's why I gave you the page numbers. He is clearly correcting the incorrect usage of the term "gzhan stong," but it is not that profound in the sense that what he is saying is novel.

The point I am making is that he never accepted gzhan stong view, because it is trivial to say that the afflictions are not inherent to the mind, i.e., that the mind is inherently empty of afflictions, but not empty of its own purity, aka, luminosity. That's the point of his citation about sunrays, that they are inherently pure no matter what they fall on. Luminosity, in sūtra, is just a metaphor for purity. Unforunately, some people take this for being a substantial quality of the mind, and like you, confuse this with the notion that lamps illuminate themselves. Lamps cannot illuminate themselves, because there is no darkness in a lamp to remove.

Of course this is different in various tantric perspectives, where there is an understanding about how the radiance of this fundamental mind functions with the nadis, vayus, and bindus of the body and can be employed on the path.

It's also trivial to say that purity has infinite qualities, but some people out of a zeal born of literalism really do get too carried away.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
If jñana is defined in terms of a consciousness that doesn't arise because its support-object has no signs, per Cāndrakīrti,

Malcolm wrote:
What no longer arises is the mind and mental factors. Gnosis sees suchness. This is not a mind since it is not conceptual. This is also not inert, since it is characterized by clarity. It is ultimate in the sense that its object is ultimate, but it is relative in that it exists in a continuum. Since it is free of afflictions, it is beyond birth and death. But its activity is effortless and not connected with conceptual signs, which both Candra and Maitreyanātha agree on. As far as qualities go, as I have mentioned before, it is not necessary to have truly existing kāyas and wisdoms in the basis in order for the result to manifest qualities of the kāyas and wisdoms. The recognition of reality itself produces these qualities spontaneously. They are not newly created in the sense that they are fabricated; but rather, they are emergent properties of buddhahood, which cannot be inferred from observing sentient beings in their present state. Buddhas, of course see the actual potential of sentient beings, but statements that the buddha-qualities, such as eighteen unshared qualities and so on, exist in sentient beings, cannot be taken literally. But of course, once reality is realized through the personally realized gnosis that arises in equipoise, these qualities naturally emerge, because any being with a mind has the potential to manifest these qualities. For example, no one says that flowers exist in the ground fully formed. But no one denies that seeds exist in the ground. When these seeds meet the spring rain, by July all the flowers are in bloom. Likewise, the minds of sentient beings have the potential to realize reality—if you like the fundamental mind of luminosity, vidyā, etc.—and when they do, they bring forth an abundance of qualities, just as the Buddha has stated. But to take literally the idea that all these qualities exist fully expressed in sentient beings at the time of the basis is a pretty foolish position, since it is obviously the case that sentient beings are not omniscient, do not have the eighteen unshared qualities, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:


krodha said:
Candrakīrti concurs in his Madhyamakāvatāra:
The absence of all characteristics is peace.

Malcolm wrote:
And we might add, from the MAV:

Since all the dry wood of objects of knowledge are burned up, 
that peace is the dharmakāya of the victors, 
at that time there neither arising nor cessation—
the cessation of the mind is directly perceived by the kāya.

Candra comments on this:


Since the kāya that possesses the nature of gnosis burns all the dry wood of objects of knowledge, since objects of knowledge do not arise, that which possess this nonarising is the dharmakāya of the buddhas. As it is said:

From this perspective 
the buddhas see suchness,
the guides are the dharmakāya,
dharmatā is not an object of knowledge,
that cannot be known. 

This dharmakāya neither arises nor ceases at that time. From this point of view, Mañjuśrī, this "neither arising nor ceasing" is nominal designation for the tathāgata."
 
That being the case, the relative presentation is that only the kāya can directly perceive the object of gnosis, reality, since the mind and mental factors can never engage that as a perceiving subject at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2023 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Rendawa's Jewel Lamp, 340-341 said:
According to the tradition of this tantra, the classification of the two truths is like this: all the phenomena of the incidental stains that arise from the confusing circumstances of ignorance are relative truth, because they obscure the perception of thatness and are reference points for total affliction. Because that is also not established as the object of a perfect primordial awareness, it is empty of self-nature, a nihilistic emptiness, and an inanimate emptiness. All the phenomena of luminosity, the nature of original mind, are absolute truth. And not because it has been proven able to withstand reasoned analysis ... It is the absolute because it is a nonconceptual field of experience. Because the incidental stains are absent, it is empty of other, and because it is experienced through a discriminating self-awareness, it is not a nihilistic emptiness and an inanimate emptiness ...

Because the emptiness of self-nature falls into the extreme of nihilism, its realization is not the perfect path of liberation; only the emptiness of other, the true nature of mind, luminosity, an immutable inner pure awareness experienced through the force of meditation and through a discriminating self-awareness, is accepted as the perfect path

Malcolm wrote:
First of all, as I have explained to you many timses, the spros bral tradition, the classical tradition of Madhyamaka in India and Tibet (as opposed to  yogacārins who merely claim to madhyamakas but cling to a real basis) is not a rang stong school.

Back to Rendawa, there is nothing novel about saying that the nature of the mind has never been affected by taints from the very beginning. His whole thrust is distinguishing mind from the nature of the mind, he says, when discussing the cause tantra on page 333, quotes the Bhadrapāla śreṣṭhi paripṛcchā sūtra:

Just as sun rays are not affected by the taints of bad odor, pollution, or even fallen corpses, the sun is free of bad smell without going somewhere else. Likewise, the element of consciousness [vijñānadhātu] is born in wombs of dogs and pigs, who eat shit and garbage, nevertheless, the element of consciousness is never affected by that inferior behavior."

It is perfectly acceptable to say that the mind is devoid of adventitious afflictions, the Buddha states it clearly in the Pabhassara Sutta. It that is all one is confining one's definition extrinsic emptiness to, this is not a source of fault.

The issue we run into is when we begin to define gnosis as ultimate. So does Rendawa really define gnosis as ultimate in the sense of being substantially different from consciousness? Rendawa, in the passage you cite says:

The two truths presented by the tradition of this tantra are as follows: All the adventitious, impure phenomena produced from the deluded condition of ignorance are obscurations to seeing reality (tattva, de kho na nyid), and because they are the support (ālambana) of affliction, they are relative truth. Because they also are not established as the objects of true gnosis (samyakjñāna), they are intrinsically empty, emptiness of annihilation, and an inert emptiness.

This all makes sense because the point being made here is that the emptiness of the mind itself is not inert, but afflictions and so on, which actually do not exist as such, are indeed empty in the way he describes them.

All the phenomena of luminosity of the fundamental mind (gnyug ma sems) are are ultimate truth. It is not because it can bear analysis through reasoning...

This is where Rendawa and Jonang part ways. He is not claiming that, in the parlance of the Geluk school, the fundamental mind of clear light can withstand analysis. He is making an entirely different point. What's his point: He cites the Abhidharmasammucaya on this score:

Why is [suchness] called "ultimate?" Because the ultimate is the domain of gnosis.

Rendawa continues:

As it says, it because it is the domain of the nonconceptual [gnosis], [the luminosity of the fundamental mind] is ultimate, and because it is devoid of adventitious stains, it is empty of other. Because it must be experienced in the manner of individual, personal knowledge (so so rang rig, pratyātma+vit), it is neither an annhilationist emptiness nor an inert emptiness.

It is incisive here that Rendawa makes the distinction the fundamental mind of luminosity cannot bear analysis. He does state that it is the domain of the gnosis that must be personally known (so sor rang gyis rig pa'i ye shes).

If one is familiar with Sakya works, one also finds Sapan making an observation in Treasury of Reasoning that partless moments are ultimate, and cannot be refuted by madhyamaka reasons. Why? Because madhyamaka only refutes moments with arising, abiding, and cessation. It has no arguments for dealing with partless moments. He also makes a distinction between an ultimate of freedom from extremes and an ultimate of reduction, with these partless moments belonging to the latter. We see the same move here. When reduced, the mind is empty of extraneous taints, as the Buddha states, so no one can argue with this. No one believes that afflictions are inherent to the mind. What Rendawa does not say is that this fundamental mind exists or is permanent, which is the error in which the Jonang seemingly fall, thus the charge of being crypto-Hindus. On page 332 he offers this refutation:

Here, others say, "The basis of purification, suchness with taints, and the result of purification, the vajrakāya, are inseparable in the manner of [one, the result] pervading [the other, the basis], once those are grasped to be the same, the inseparable basis and result are asserted to be permanent, stable, and the same This is totally deluded. The permanent cannot be contaminated by the condition of adventitious impurities, and due to this, also also the path will not be able to make the tainted untainted, because the permanent is unchanging.

The part in red I understand to be Rendawa's continued rejection of the Jonang perspective. So, frankly, I understand his "gzhan stong" to be rather different than yours, the so-called "white" gzhan stong mentioned by HHDL, as opposed to "black" gzhan stong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: There are so many wealth generating practices - which / what are the best ones?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
The general advice from ChNN on this score is to engage in long-life practice.

Toenail said:
Why long life practice specifically?

Kai lord said:
Long life practice is not a simple as it looks or sounds on the surface. It involves multiple levels of practice and understanding along with benefits, hence it becomes a core practice for many people and masters.

Malcolm wrote:
Why must everyone insist on making things sound so difficult?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Breathing instructions during Song of Vajra according to ChNN
Content:



Ati108 said:
What do you mean by breaks the line? Do you mean to follow the rhythm by listening to Rinpoche as other have suggested, or are you referring to line breaks according to how the written SOV text appears?

Malcolm wrote:
The latter. When singing mantras, in the DC we always breathe where the mantra is broken. Same with SOV.

Ati108 said:
Thank you Malcolm! But in the new moon version of the Guru Rinpoche mantra ChNN specifies 1 breathe to be taken after the two lines disregarding the line break in the written text. By contrast, for the full moon mantra there are 2 breaths (which I think accords with what you are saying). Hence my confusion about using the written text as a guide for when to breathe.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the thodtremgtsal mantra is also broken at thodtrengtsal, breath, vajra samaya…to end, breathe, om ah…. Etc.

Likewise the waxing moon mantra is broken at padma.

Same the ngagong, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: Differentiating the purpose of Rushens and Semdzins (as taught by ChNN)
Content:
Ati108 said:
When exactly should we apply the Rushens vs Semdzins?

Malcolm wrote:
Rushan is something that should be done in retreat, systematically.

Semszins can be done any time, but in the beginning it is best to through then one by one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: How do we deal with evil?
Content:
Researcherz104 said:
I like Buddhism and have been researching its beliefs for quite a while now but I actually come from a Christian background and I feel as if my community may need some Buddhist advice on how to deal with today’s problems. In recent times I’ve been puzzled on how to deal with the rise of these modern day satan worshipers. They mock everything my religion stands for and casually show imagery and symbolism the devil, which is the ultimate evil in Christian mythology. They sell satanic clothes in stores and the world allows them to openly mock us. However I don’t even know what the right on how to deal with them, do I hate these people? Or is it even wrong to hate them? And if it is wrong to hate them then what do I do?.

To be honest I would just like advice from a Buddhist perspective. What would be the Buddhist way to deal with such disrespectful people and acts. What would Buddha tell his people to do if there were others whom disrespected everything he stood for and defiled his image? I know Buddhist have felt similar pains but in much, much worse ways as I know that some nations like Vietnam had points in their history where Buddhism was treated terribly. I just need help.

Malcolm wrote:
Did you ever consider this may be reaction to how disrespectful Christians have been and continue to be towards those of other faiths?

Personally, I side with the satanists since I believe in freedom of religion, unlike Christians.

93/93


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 9:06 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
We seem to have different ideas what Ati Guru Yoga is. If you first visualise a white Ah in a tigle in your heart, then of course it have development stage. If you then let it go, that is a completion stage.

Josef said:
The distinction here is that you are recollecting the thigle of five lights that already abides within all sentient beings as opposed to generating/developing/creating or perfecting anything.

heart said:
Well if you generate it, that is a development stage. If you just think it always been there, that is just a thought.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s there, whether one t knows this or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 8:55 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
I mean has Cāndrakīrti ever offered any account of what the (non)experience of jñana is, that you know of?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in this verse he offers one account, there are others, of course.

stong gzugs said:
I'd be curious what other accounts Cāndrakīrti offers, if you're aware. From the brief, and rather vague, accounts of his I've seen and listed above, MacDonald's telling of it seems consistent, if not compelling. Do you disagree with her?



Malcolm wrote:
If you think that she is implying that Candra is hinting at an ineffable experience, I disagree with her. If you think she is implying that gnosis is ineffable, I agree with her.

The problem here is the lack of definition of “experience.” Is a direct perception an “experience?” We are generally unaware of the majority of direct perceptions we have. Generally, as I understand experience, direct perceptions are mediated by the apprehension and discursive identification of characteristics. What about all the other direct perceptions we have which never rise to the level of being identified? Are they experiences? How can an “object” which has no characteristics, unlike a blue vase, said to be experienced? A fundamental definition is that the ultimate is not a domain of mental experience.  To compound the problem, since pramanas and prameyas are mutually dependent, a valid cognition cannot be established independent of a valid object, and a valid object cannot be established independent of a valid cognition. This mutual dependence renders the notion of establishing object-oriented cognitions as ultimately valid problematic,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
That is not the only presentation, there are other. Still if the main point is to recognise the nature of your mind does matter how you do that?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no presentation which states that creation and completion are the path of self-liberation.

heart said:
Never said that.

Malcolm wrote:
You said that AGY has creation and completion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Can you explain to me which of the eighteen dhatus this “ awareness” belongs to?

stong gzugs said:
The part about phenomenology vs. ontology and Madhyamaka making a category error is what's crucial. In the conversation between Śankara and Madhyamaka, attempting to situate awareness within one of the dhatus is trying to win the argument by terminology, because by definition the dhatus are knowable things. So this rhetorical move has to be rejected a priori. So awareness, as Duckworth is describing it using a non-partisan term, is something we can all experience, is our subjective sense of being an active witness to experience rather than being a zombie. What's the difference between subjective experience when you're waking, vs. when you're put into a coma? A sense of awareness.

That sense of awareness can be treated both as subject (as it's the one who is witnessing events) and object (as we can talk about it, albeit imperfectly, like we're doing here). Attempts to refute it as an object through arguments are themselves witnessed by it as a subject. Whether you privilege the arguments that refute it as an object (ontology) vs. the experience where you are yourself aware of that argument (phenomenology) is a matter of starting assumptions. Fact is, perhaps aside from nirodha samapatti, the phenomenology of awareness always remains, no matter what sort of Madhyamaka analytical meditation you do. You can collapse the sense of self in the skandhas, but that collapsing appears within spacious awareness. Otherwise, there would be no actual recognition of no-self-in-skandhas.

krodha said:
This is why the soteriological catalyst for liberation in Madhyamaka, atiyoga and so on is rooted in epistemology, rather than this stringent division between phenomenology and ontology that you are continually proposing.

The phenomenological aspect of our experience is already corrupted by the deluded perception of ontological constructs. Madhyamaka, atiyoga and so on are stating that via accurate epistemic insight, ontologies are undermined and this releases the phenomenological, conscious aspect of our experience from the confines of all dualisms. Even beyond the limited species of nonduality you are advocating for which is an awareness devoid of subject and object. That too is refuted, as we see in Atiśas writings that are echoed by prominent atiyogins such as Longchenpa et al., dharmakāya does not even admit jñāna, and so on. Jñāna ceases to operate. The purpose of that clarification is to undermine attempts at reifying that phenomenological aspect, like you are doing.

You are an advocate of a substantial and reductive nonduality, which is a deviation. True nondual insight, is insubstantial and nonreductive. This is the meaning of the emptiness of emptiness and so on. Your view errs very close to the edge of tīrthika treatments of that phenomenological aspect.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Rendawa's criticism of certain so-called Tibetan Madhyamakas as being crypto hindus, might seem unfair, but after a while...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Gnosis also is not an experiencer. Since (1) gnosis necessarily perceives emptiness, and (2) that [emptiness] has nature of nonarising, as nirvana is not an existent through that nature not existing, and is also not held to be a nonexistent, therefore, the nature of gnosis is beyond all proliferation.

stong gzugs said:
I'm following Anne Macdonald's analysis, who translated Cāndrakīrti's Prasannapadā (from Sanskrit, I believe, rather than your Tibetan), who renders the verse as jñana “having a form that transcends all manifoldness” (sarvaprapañcātītarūpa) and comments on this term as follows:

Malcolm wrote:
And I will follow Patsab, who with Mahāmati, translated the text according to its meaning, where rūpa was in this case rendered rang bzhin. Translating things directly from Sanskrit is good, but there is a risk of ignoring what the pandita/translator teams understood the correct meaning to be and overruling them out of literalism.

Also, Majya, Patsab's student, summarizes the passage quite well.

In any case the term proliferation is quite well understood, it means there is no conceptual reification of ontological choices, being, nonbeing, and so on, since those choices are not valid.

She addresses your interest here:

https://www.academia.edu/5778953/Knowing_Nothing_Candrak%C4%ABrti_and_Yogic_Perception, especially pp. 156:

For him, at the time of perception of the ultimate, of the emptiness of things that were never really there in the first place, inasmuch as there is nothing whatsoever to be perceived, that is, since an object for consciousness does not exist, consciousness will simply not come into being; Candra-kī rti’s assertion that consciousness assumes the mode of non-arising translates into no consciousness at all. Yet in this way consciousness still fulfills the Sautrāntika demand that the consciousness resemble, conform to, its object: like its object, the non-arisen true nature of things, consciousness “takes,” so to speak, a non-arisen and non-existent form. In Candrakīrti’s words: If consciousness, like its object, has the form of non-arising, it is proper to maintain that it has proceeded by way of the object just as it is. And given its proceeding by way of its object, its conforming to its object, it is proper to designate it direct perception.


stong gzugs said:
Chalking this up to language use is a bit of a cop out here. I mean has Cāndrakīrti ever offered any account of what the (non)experience of jñana is, that you know of?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in this verse he offers one account, there are others, of course. The Buddha expresses it best however in a sūtra you certainly regard as definitive since it is from the so-called third turning, the Samadhirāja: (84000 version):

33.120
The bodhisattvas in meditation
Do not long for any phenomenon.
When nothing is apprehended,
That is called enlightenment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
That is not the only presentation, there are other. Still if the main point is to recognise the nature of your mind does matter how you do that?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no presentation which states that creation and completion are the path of self-liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sure. That's not the point, however. The point is that ati guru yoga does not belong to the path of transformation.

heart said:
Dividing everything in to higher and lower paths is endless and just create more and more limits that isn't helpful for anyone in my opinion.

Malcolm wrote:
Conflating the path of transformation with the path of self-liberation does not help anyone either. AGY belongs to the latter path, not the former path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
natusake said:
Buddhism is not about experiences, it is about wisdom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: ChNN Yangti Transmission
Content:


Ati108 said:
Are there any qualified, living teachers who hold the same yangti transmissions taught by Rinpoche?

Malcolm wrote:
Lama Denys in France, he received it from ChNN. I believe he can also give the transmission. ChNN held him in very high regard.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
Nevertheless, if you use the white Ah in your heart that is development and letting that go is completion.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it isn't. You are not transforming anything.

heart said:
If you just rest in rigpa we normally call that trechö but ok call it guru yoga if it make you happy. But no doubt people will not get the distinction.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no distinction.

Your error here is the same error made in all the nine yānas: you see Dzogchen as a result.

heart said:
the effect is exactly the same with all of them.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure. That's not the point, however. The point is that ati guru yoga does not belong to the path of transformation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
Why do you call it guru yoga why not just call it trechö?

...

I never created the Guru in front when doing Guru Yoga with a white Ah.

Malcolm wrote:
Because trekcho and thogal are guru yoga, and guru yoga is trekcho and thogal. There is no difference between the two. Trekcho and thogal is being in the knowledge that our gurus point out. How could trekcho and thogal be anything other than guru yoga? Ati Guru Yoga, trekcho, and thogal are not different things.

Ati Guru Yoga and Guru Yoga of the White A are different practices.

But whenever you did the short thun, then you indeed created Garab Dorje and then dissolved him.

I know you took some teachings from CHNN, but I fail to understand why you argue with us about what ChNN taught. He is our root guru, we studied with him for decades, attended SMS teachings, and so on. We know much better than you what he taught.

We never argue with you about what Chokyi Nyima etc., teaches. I would appreciate it if you would tender us the same respect. Thanks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
So you changed your mind about that? There is a creation stage and a completion stage clearly defined even if very simplified.

Malcolm wrote:
I never said this. What I said was that Guru Yoga of the White A is an anuyoga system, since one visualizes Garab Dorje and so on. Just as the Medium Thun guru yoga belongs to Mahāyoga.

Ati Guru Yoga is not an anuyoga practice. One is not creating anything or dissolving anything.

heart said:
So according to you Ati Guru Yoga is not Guru Yoga with the White A? Where did Rinpoche make that distinction?

Malcolm wrote:
Ati Guru Yoga does not involve any transformation. That is the difference between Ati Guru Yoga and Guru Yoga of the White A. He made this disctinction many times. In the Guru Yoga of the White A, you always are creating the guru in front. In AGY, you never create or transform anything. The symbol is just a symbol of the potentiality of the basis that exists in the heart center of every sentient beings, with its qualities of sounds, lights, and rays. This does not need to be created, and is perfectly complete already in your body. We sound A and recall that potential. Its not the same as a creation stage, even an anuyoga one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Why so gray?
Content:



jet.urgyen said:
i agree, from time to time is really like taking a deep breath.

Malcolm wrote:
I am glad we agree. I prefer to agree with you rather than disagree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
Well, that would be practicing Anuyoga with only a glimpse of rigpa for most people. Difficult to talk with people while doing it.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if you think it is hard, Magnus. Other people may not experience the same difficulty as you seem to express. BTW, Ati Guru Yoga is not an anuyoga system. There is no creation stage, not completion stage, etc.

heart said:
So you changed your mind about that? There is a creation stage and a completion stage clearly defined even if very simplified.

Malcolm wrote:
I never said this. What I said was that Guru Yoga of the White A is an anuyoga system, since one visualizes Garab Dorje and so on. Just as the Medium Thun guru yoga belongs to Mahāyoga.

Ati Guru Yoga is not an anuyoga practice. One is not creating anything or dissolving anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
Well, that would be practicing Anuyoga with only a glimpse of rigpa for most people. Difficult to talk with people while doing it.

stoneinfocus said:
Resting in rigpa is guru yoga. You asked where it was in Josef's post, and there it is...

heart said:
Ati Guru Yoga is practiced by all kinds of people, most who would understand it as a visualisation.

Malcolm wrote:
You are really going to speak for the people of DC and explain what they think Ati Guru Yoga is?

BTW, Ati Guru Yoga is not an anuyoga system. There is no creation stage, no completion stage, etc. And as Joe said, instant presence itself is guru yoga. When you discover it for a moment, you do not need to flop onto the floor and sound A and change your position, etc. You just notice it while you are brewing coffee, typing a post on Dharmawheel, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
Well, that would be practicing Anuyoga with only a glimpse of rigpa for most people. Difficult to talk with people while doing it.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if you think it is hard, Magnus. Other people may not experience the same difficulty as you seem to express.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Why so gray?
Content:



jet.urgyen said:
ChNN himself was an urban yogin, so do i, and afaik you also, no? i mean, we engage in modern world, with all the pro and cons it has.

Malcolm wrote:
I am a rural practitioner, I live in the country surrounded by fields, streams, trees, wild animals, and three neighbors who are not that close to us. I understand that not everyone has the same circumstances.

Rinpoche spent much of his time, especially after he retired in 1992, in isolated retreats, for example, in Namgyalgar north in the Glass Mountains outside of Brisbane, Australia, or Tsegyalgar in NA, or in his retreat house in Merigar, etc., and many other places I am sure.

jet.urgyen said:
That said, i don't see why is a practice for isolated places and mountain sides.

Malcolm wrote:
We work with circumstances, the best we can but, as it is states in the Tantra Without Syllables:

Furthermore, child of a good family, leave large cities and
abide in a retreat within the great expanse of a forest. Be free
from inner activities and outer activities.

And:

“One must abide in that appearance within a forest without companions,
free of attachment to all outer enjoyments!

Sure, we do not have to live our entire life in isolation. But we do need to go off by ourselves from time to time to be alone and practice outside, in nature, not sitting inside of smoke-filled rooms, chanting texts, and staring at the walls or the floor.

ChNN himself said many times that Dzogchen is a practice best done out of doors. This applies to cities too, but there are some things, like outer rushan, we cannot do in the city.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
merilingpa said:
My point here is that I think it is very difficult to walk around, talking and making coffee and also be in a state of trekchö.

Malcolm wrote:
Then I guess it is difficult for you, since you think it is difficult. It is not how I was taught. We all take away different things from the teachings, even when we follow the same teacher. Buddha is a perfect example of this phenomenon. There is both a direct way to practice Dzogchen and an indirect way, relying on secondary practices for support. Neither way is wrong. I prefer the former to the latter.

ChNN stressed that there is no such a thing as "pure Dzogchen," contra the ideas of some. On the other hand, he also stressed over and over again that Dzogchen was not just some add-on to Vajrayāna, even though this is how most people in Tibetan Buddhism relate to it.

Dzogchen is an independent vehicle. He often pointed out that each of the vehicles were independent paths, complete in themselves. For example, everyone understands Śrāvakayāna and Mahāyāna are a complete path. No one says, "To complete the path of śrāvakyāna, you must practice pratyekabuddhayāna, etc., or to complete the Mahāyāna path, you must then practice kriya tantra." Mahāyāna is a complete path, so is kriya tantra.

This does not mean it is invalid for Dzogchen tantras and texts, like the Great Space of Vajrasattva, to point out the deviations and errors of the eight or nine vehicles. Because understanding those deviations and errors is important for discovering one's primordial state and not having doubts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Why so gray?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
This sums up the https://jhana.app/ I have in mind.

Malcolm wrote:
They'll be disappointed.

ChNN said to one women, who liked his explanations but was more interested in another teacher because she felt more "vibration," "I am sorry I cannot give you any vibration."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Why so gray?
Content:
Meido said:
Not sure if any of this applies to Dzogchen places, but thought I'd share.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen does not do well in Dharma centers. It's a practice for isolated places and mountain sides, not shrines and temples. Those are necessary for teaching, but are not really conducive to practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2023 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:



stong gzugs said:
But, even still, if you read Cāndrakīrti's Prasannapadā closely, he doesn't necessarily refrain from making positive statements about yogic perception. In commenting on MMK 25.6, he says that jñana has a form (rūpa) which he describes as transcending all multiplicity (sarvaprapañcātīta)...

I mean has Cāndrakīrti ever offered any account of what the (non)experience of jñana is, that you know of?

Malcolm wrote:
You meant MMK 25.16. You apparently have not seen the passage in question.

།ཡེ་ཤེས་ཀྱིས་ཀྱང་སྤྱོད་པར་བྱེད་པ་མ་ཡིན་ཏེ། ཡེ་ཤེས་ཀྱིས་ནི་སྟོང་པ་ཉིད་ལ་དམིགས་པར་འགྱུར་དགོས་ལ་དེ་ཡང་མ་སྐྱེས་པའི་རང་བཞིན་ཉིད་ཡིན་པས། ཇི་ལྟར་ཡོད་པ་མ་ཡིན་པའི་རང་བཞིན་དེས་མྱ་ངན་ལས་འདས་པ་དངོས་པོ་མ་ཡིན་ཞིང༌། དངོས་པོ་མེད་པ་མ་ཡིན་པ་ཞེས་བྱ་བར་འཛིན་པར་བྱེད། ཡེ་ཤེས་ནི་སྤྲོས་པ་ཐམས་ཅད་ལས་འདས་པའི་རང་བཞིན་ཡིན་པའི་ཕྱིར་རོ།

Gnosis also is not an experiencer. Since (1) gnosis necessarily perceives emptiness, and (2) that [emptiness] has nature of nonarising, as nirvana is not an existent through that nature not existing, and is also not held to be a nonexistent, therefore, the nature of gnosis is beyond all proliferation.

He never says gnosis has a form (rūpam, gzugs) in this passage. He also denies that gnosis is an experiencer.

Majya states:

Gnosis— the subject (viṣayin, yul can) [which apprehends] the ultimate—does not perceive any signs of proliferation because it does not apprehend [nirvana] to either exist or not exist.

But this gnosis is relative, like all gnosis. Otherwise, one has to theorize a) a separate instrument of knowledge for gnosis, which the Buddha never taught, or b) a transformation of the state of consciousness from being compounded to being uncompounded, as the cittamatrins suggst, which contains an internal contradiction or c) that consciousness itself is ultimate and truly established, contra the Buddha's teachings in their entirety.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:



stong gzugs said:
This also feels to be like a bit of a cop out to me (I mean, what is any argument, including yours, but a series of assertions?

Malcolm wrote:
Can you explain to me which of the eighteen dhatus this “ awareness” belongs to? Can you point me to a place where the Buddha taught an instrument of knowledge outside of aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements?


Sādhaka said:
Well a mental body (such as during physical sleep or the bardos after physical death) has its own aggregates, sense bases & elements; yet it is generally hidden from ordinary people. Therefore the answer to that question seems to be “yes and no”.

Malcolm wrote:
You just contradicted yourself:  has its own aggregates, sense bases & elements. That means there is no instrument of knowledge outside the eighteen dhātus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Can you explain to me which of the eighteen dhatus this “ awareness” belongs to?

stong gzugs said:
The part about phenomenology vs. ontology and Madhyamaka making a category error is what's crucial. In the conversation between Śankara and Madhyamaka, attempting to situate awareness within one of the dhatus is trying to win the argument by terminology, because by definition the dhatus are knowable things.

Malcolm wrote:
If one cannot situate “awareness” among the dhatus, then it is a nonthing, and unknowable, other than as an erroneous imputation, that’s the point.

stong gzugs said:
So this rhetorical move has to be rejected a priori. So awareness, as Duckworth is describing it using a non-partisan term, is something we can all experience, is our subjective sense of being an active witness to experience rather than being a zombie. What's the difference between subjective experience when you're waking, vs. when you're put into a coma? A sense of awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
So, now you are taking awareness as an object. Which means one’s sense of being aware is relative and conditioned.

stong gzugs said:
That sense of awareness can be treated both as subject (as it's the one who is witnessing events) and object (as we can talk about it, albeit imperfectly, like we're doing here). Attempts to refute it as an object through arguments are themselves witnessed by it as a subject.

Malcolm wrote:
Which means “awareness” is a mental factor, which is part of the dharmadhatu, the object of the element of mental consciousness and the mental organ, thus conditioned and not a separate instrument of knowledge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You need to receive instructions on this in person. Without direct introduction you can stare at the sky all day long.

stong gzugs said:
Yep, that's what exactly Tulku Urgyen is saying. Here's a quote:

Malcolm wrote:
What I am saying is that further instructions are required, since there are different versions of mixing the three spaces, with different emphasis depending on whether one is practicing trekcho or thogal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It’s not compelling from the first sentence. It’s basically a series of assertions, starting with an undefined assertion “awareness.”

stong gzugs said:
This also feels to be like a bit of a cop out to me (I mean, what is any argument, including yours, but a series of assertions?

Malcolm wrote:
Can you explain to me which of the eighteen dhatus this “ awareness” belongs to? Can you point me to a place where the Buddha taught an instrument of knowledge outside of aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
So, yeah, that's basically what I've been trying to explain all this time.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s not compelling.

stong gzugs said:
This is basically the hinge upon which this entire argument rests. So, if you're trying to refute these arguments, you'll have to do better than to say it's not compelling.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s not compelling from the first sentence. It’s basically a series of assertions, starting with an undefined assertion “awareness.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


stong gzugs said:
Interesting! As an add on, Tulku Urgyen talks about people who practice without having recognized rigpa as mingling only two spaces, rather than three, so I think it's not necessarily the case that mingling the outer and inner will itself lead to recognition of rigpa or to awakened equipoise.

Malcolm wrote:
You need to receive instructions on this in person. Without direct introduction you can stare at the sky all day long. Also some other instructions are needed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
merilingpa said:
Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred  of them.................

stoneinfocus said:
And that's what they are. Secondary. Not the primary practice.

merilingpa said:
Well, they are but I think they are important for most people and somewhat downplayed in this forum sometimes. The secondary practices are underestimated and needed to get better at recognizing and staying in rigpa for most people I think.



Malcolm wrote:
If you think you need, that’s up to you. It’s not up to you to decide for others. The method we use in the DC for maintaining instant presence is Song of Vajra.


merilingpa said:
You could ofcourse also be in rigpa while reciting mantras for short moments of time.(quote]

We use SOV, and number of other Dzogchen mantras that have nothing to do with creation and completion.


So they can become in this way a primary practice with some secondary features.
And I think its not so easy to stay in rigpa for a long time. Its about seconds or split seconds, not just sounding Ah and walking off and talking to friends and making coffee and thinking that you are in rigpa while doing it.

Malcolm wrote:
If you think you cannot be in a state of trekcho while walking , talking, and making coffee, you have not really understood CHNN teachings. One does not “think” one is in instant presence. One uses mindfulness and attention to support instant presence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Lingpupa said:
but was referring to the exclusivist understanding of "DI" as something unique to the DC and NNR's transmission.

Malcolm wrote:
I have never advanced such an idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 8:00 PM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[I am putting aside the question of empty forms because it is not applicable, we were talking about madhyamaka, not completion stage practices].

OdeKirk said:
Does the same logic not apply to completion stage practices?

Kai lord said:
Well according to Yonten Cyamtso:
According to the argument of direct perception, the indivisible nature of the two truths is beyond the scope of intellect, for it is understood through the direct perception of self-cognizing awareness, by way of an objectless self-illumination. The self-cognizing awareness referred to here indicates self-cognizing primordial wisdom. The inseparability of the two superior truths is the fundamental nature of all phenomena, for the Noble Ones have perceived it so, just as a healthy person sees the whiteness of a white conch shell. The Ocean Tantra says:

With in the self-born, self-arising mind,
These two are not divided.
Clearly perceived, this cannot be denied
With in awareness, unborn, self-cognizing.
This is said to be the highest of all realizations.
This points to the final conclusion: the indivisibility of the two
truths is by definition beyond the ordinary intellect.


To practice the Mantrayana path after one has, by means of these four arguments, attained certainty in the inseparability of the two superior truths, is of the highest moment. The inseparability of the two truths, just as it is, cannot be assimilated through intellectual analysis alone. Nevertheless, it is through inferential investigation that one can come to a perfect certainty that such must be the case. Then, by dint of pursuing the path of meditation, it is possible to come to a direct realization of the fundamental nature of things.

Malcolm wrote:
This translation contains many errors because the translator does not know the difference between Dzogchen and cittamatra. Basically, rang rig ye shes is a contraction of so sor rang gi rig pa’i ye shes, the gnosis that must be known personally. Longchenpa pa clearly explains thus on the lung gi gter mdzod.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 11:34 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So you are equating the citta of Advaita with the ultimate truth in Buddhism?


stong gzugs said:
So, yeah, that's basically what I've been trying to explain all this time.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s not compelling.
If there is an experiencing subject, there must be an object.
An assumption being stated as a fact. I mentioned this above, that your claim here rests on whether one's assumed starting premise accept reflexivity or not. Cāndrakīrti doesn't, Dharmakīrti does, [/quote]

Dharmakirti nowhere states there is a subject in absence of an object. What he states is that objects of direct perceptions are disclosed to the mind through the intrinsic cognizance of the mind in second order  perceptions. It is false to say Candrakirti does not accept reflexivity, he does, albeit as memory.
Śankara does.
It’s quite questionable that  svaprakasha intends is the same thing svasamvitti intends.

As such, from within Vedanta's own terms (like I said, (a) favoring experience (or phenomenology to use Duckworth's terms) over conceptual arguments (or ontology, per Duckworth) and (b) accepting reflexivity of awareness), I think Śankara's refutation of Madhyamaka's no-self argument makes perfect sense. Madhyamaka's responses (and thus yours) are only acceptable if you already buy into the premise that favors ontology over phenomenology, which Vedanta doesn't. So, as I said, everyone's arguments only work from within their own starting premises, which are always assumed and never proven.
Well, there are those who would gladly toss rview in the garbage, who imagine that realization does not depend on view. But such people are mistaken.

You think Advaita is defensible?
My refutation of Advaita is its inability to provide a convincing ontological status for maya that isn't dualistic. (There are somewhat parallel problems in the way that some Buddhist accounts treat ignorance as a causal factor at the start of the chain of dependent origination, as it also is on murky grounds in terms of its ontological status.)
People who properly study abhidharma done make that error


We conventionally term the wisdom (prajñā) that apprehends emptiness free from extremes a "yogic direct perception,"  but this merely a convention, since there is no object that is directly perceived, and thus, no actual direct perception as such. In this state the mind simply subsides through the exhaustion of analytical options and merges into the dharmadhātu. This is not an "experience" per se, since there is neither subject nor object—the mind has become the very image of the dharmadhātu free from all extremes, like the reflection of the blue sky in a still lake.
Again, Cāndrakīrti's take on yogic direct perception differs from that of others and is a source of debate.
This is standard madhyamika. The difference between Candrakirti and others is only pedagogical, not substantive.

But, even still, if you read Cāndrakīrti's Prasannapadā closely, he doesn't necessarily refrain from making positive statements about yogic perception.
That’s because we have to use language, as, limited as it is.

The fault of the Gelukpas is turning emptiness into a conceptual object.
Agreed. "Emptiness cures all wrong views, but the view of emptiness is incurable."
emptiness has a form
Of course emptiness has a form. Everything that has form is empty. That’s why I want to bracket the discussion on shunyatabimba, so called wisdom appearances. Those forms you refer require yogic technique to expose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 9:46 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[I am putting aside the question of empty forms because it is not applicable, we were talking about madhyamaka, not completion stage practices].

OdeKirk said:
Does the same logic not apply to completion stage practices?

Malcolm wrote:
Not precisely. The completion stage is not based on analysis, it’s based on generating nonconceptual gnosis on the basis of yogic practices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Shaiksha said:
It is kind of ironic, people spent hours and hours arguing about the role of shamatha in our spiritual life. If we had just used that time to practice a little bit of shamatha, the result should be the calming of the mind and the realization that 99% of the thoughts that just came and went were unnecessary. Unfortunately, many of those thoughts subsequently put to writing in this forum can no longer be taken back.

Just my personal observation.

Malcolm wrote:
Was this thought you shared necessary?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Lingpupa said:
. But DI is, even so, not the be-all and end-all of transmission.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is, it’s present in every major empowerment and blessing. Without it, the example wisdom cannot be induced in the student. What else do you think the fourth empowerment is?

The special point of view of the Dzogchen tradition is that the three lower empowerments are unnecessary, the fourth empowerment alone is sufficient for ripening the student. The four Dzogchen empowerments-elaborate through very unelaborate-are in fact elaborations of the fourth empowerment.

What we call “direct introduction” is just the most simple way of conferring the word empowerment.

There is also something similar in the Kagyu Mahamudra tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 7:53 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If it can experienced, it is necessarily experienced conceptually.

stong gzugs said:
You're stating your own assumptions as a fact. Not everyone shares your assumptions.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are equating the citta of Advaita with the ultimate truth in Buddhism? You think Advaita is defensible?

If there is an experiencing subject, there must be an object.

For example, what is the object of a nondual equipoise free from proliferation? Is there an object in emptiness which is free from extremes? Can emptiness free from extremes itself be an object of equipoise? How?

We conventionally term the wisdom (prajñā) that apprehends emptiness free from extremes a "yogic direct perception,"  but this merely a convention, since there is no object that is directly perceived, and thus, no actual direct perception as such. In this state the mind simply subsides through the exhaustion of analytical options and merges into the dharmadhātu. This is not an "experience" per se, since there is neither subject nor object—the mind has become the very image of the dharmadhātu free from all extremes, like the reflection of the blue sky in a still lake.

The fault of the Gelukpas is turning emptiness into a conceptual object.

[I am putting aside the question of empty forms because it is not applicable, we were talking about madhyamaka, not completion stage practices].


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: There are so many wealth generating practices - which / what are the best ones?
Content:
Nalanda said:
There are different termas, different school considerations, even Dzogchen has secondary practices to deal with this. How does one navigate which are the most effective (or more appropriate) ones?

Malcolm wrote:
The general advice from ChNN on this score is to engage in long-life practice.

Toenail said:
Why long life practice specifically?

Malcolm wrote:
They increase everything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
—- Milanovic, Capitalism Alone.

kirtu said:
We already have a solution to capitalist inequality.  It's called social democracy and has been around for a while.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed. But it’s still a capitalist system. Mikanovich discusses these issues at length.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Claiming something is beyond concepts, therefore it can’t be refuted is a fool’s argument.

stong gzugs said:
That's not exactly the claim. Ultimately anything that we believe conceptually has to cash out in experience,

Malcolm wrote:
If it can experienced, it is necessarily experienced conceptually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



Tata1 said:
Maybe malcom you could pm how many practices all the jñana dakini cycle are? I still cant figure it out

Malcolm wrote:
Four: Mandarava (1), Gomadevi (1), Jñānaḍākinī (2 versions, slightly different), Guhyajñāna (1), plus some long life instructions not connected to Mandarava. From what I understand, ChNN himself mainly relied Mandarava and Jñānaḍākinī, but maybe someone has better information.

jet.urgyen said:
The dhakinni cycle has anu and ati. The thugthig i have here in mi hand is an ati method, it has the anuyoga form, but just the form.

Malcolm wrote:
It has a section related to ati, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: There are so many wealth generating practices - which / what are the best ones?
Content:
Nalanda said:
There are different termas, different school considerations, even Dzogchen has secondary practices to deal with this. How does one navigate which are the most effective (or more appropriate) ones?

Malcolm wrote:
The general advice from ChNN on this score is to engage in long-life practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
I don't doubt that, but nevertheless he still applied and taught development and perfection stages all his life.

Malcolm wrote:
As the path of Anuyoga, not as the path of Dzogchen. He was always incredibly clear about the difference between the path of transformation anf the path of self-liberation.

merilingpa said:
Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred  of them.................



Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the whole Jñānaḍākinī cycle is anuyoga, which has a number of interesting practices. I personally use those methods, especially Mandarava. But they are not my main practice.

Tata1 said:
Maybe malcom you could pm how many practices all the jñana dakini cycle are? I still cant figure it out

Malcolm wrote:
Four: Mandarava (1), Gomadevi (1), Jñānaḍākinī (2 versions, slightly different), Guhyajñāna (1), plus some long life instructions not connected to Mandarava. From what I understand, ChNN himself mainly relied Mandarava and Jñānaḍākinī, but maybe someone has better information.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
including ChNNR.

Malcolm wrote:
He did not practice the path of transformation as his path. His path, his primary practice, was Song of the Vajra. He told me this directly.

heart said:
I don't doubt that, but nevertheless he still applied and taught development and perfection stages all his life.

Malcolm wrote:
As the path of Anuyoga, not as the path of Dzogchen. He was always incredibly clear about the difference between the path of transformation anf the path of self-liberation.

merilingpa said:
Well the role of his Mandarava practice and his practice of this cannot be underestimated I think...................
and the role of all of his teachings of the secondary practices, all of his retreats of over a hundred  of them.................



Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the whole Jñānaḍākinī cycle is anuyoga, which has a number of interesting practices. I personally use those methods, especially Mandarava. But they are not my main practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is a certain strand of "conservatism" amongst some Nyingmapas, who feel if one has not done three ngondros, three roots, and so on, one has no right to call oneself a Dzogchen practitioner, as Alex indicates above with his 10 million mantras, and so on. But as ChNN stated, and as it bears repeating, Garab Dorje never said do 100k of this and that, he said first, "encounter your own state" aka direct introduction, "ngo rang thog tu sprad." So that's what we do, we fetishize the f**k out of direct introduction because that is the method our teacher taught us. Is that crude enough for you, Alex?

Lingpupa said:
If that is your system, then it's obviously good that you have confidence in it. But isn't there a special subforum for NR's followers now? But more nuanced understandings are also possible.

(PS. These are not "my" 10 million mantras, just the number recommended in Longchen Nyingthig Ati Yoga instructions from Dilgo Khyentse.)

Malcolm wrote:
That special forum is dispute resolution forum.

Dilgo Khyentse is not my teacher. His instructions to his students are not relevant to me. I respect them, but it is not how I was trained. BTW, the main problem is that people who follow this more "traditional" approach keep on telling people who practice in the DC that they are doing it wrong. This convo started because there is this guy telling people they can't practice trekcho until they attain the first bhumi. And to do that, they need to practice śamatha for ten hours a day, every day. Then the proliferation in this thread spread from there.

heart said:
I just wanted to mention that Garab Dorje never said; "Participate in an online direct introduction", he said; "recognise your own nature". Garab Dorje never said; "If you don't get it, do semdzin and rushan",  he said; "recognise your own nature". So since he didn't say exactly how we should "recognise your own nature" all options are possible as long as you connect with a qualified teacher and actually recognise your own nature. Also, Dzogchen empowerments abound with visualisations of deities and so a capacity for visualisation seems to be indicated in order to fully participate. This goes for Semde, Longde and Mengakde. At least the ones I got.

Malcolm wrote:
Garab Dorje very precisely explains how to recognize your own nature in many texts.

Dzogchen transmission does not need to happen in the context of a formal empowerment. Sometimes that method can be used. But it is not necessary, but it can be useful for some.

As to  empowerments, longde for example depends on an empowerment of Ngondzog Gyalpo because Dzeng Dharmabodhi combined this Anuyoga empowerment with the Longde instructions. But prior to him there was no such Longde empowerment. The man ngag sde lower two empowerments are also influenced by Anuyoga. Tibetans, ChNN explained, like empowerments, and don't really take things seriously unless there is an empowerment. I have also see this attitude among western students. They receive transmission of guru yoga, which gives them permission to practice all Dzogchen methods, or even practice transformation practices with a simple lung transmission, but they are not happy and they want to participate in a complicated ritual. Sometimes, there is a very good reason to give an empowerment in a more elaborate style, but that depends on circumstances. My main point, is that we should make the same distinction Longchenpa does:
These maintain the object of focus through the wish for the cessation of subject and object. Since they are an approach to control thoughts, they are a method of being introduced to the profound Dharma, but they are not the profound actual yoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
including ChNNR.

Malcolm wrote:
He did not practice the path of transformation as his path. His path, his primary practice, was Song of the Vajra. He told me this directly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2023 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
ject said:
To be very clear, I am not justifying Russian attack on UA or anyone else. I also know very well what a hell-hole USSR was and how much damage this leftist lunacy has caused to mankind.

Malcolm wrote:
Ukraine was invaded by Russia in 2014 because they wanted to join the EU. Seems like their aspirations to be a liberal democracy have only increased since 2014. Now Russia has 800 extra NATO miles on their border. Good move Russia! Guess Putin is playing fifth dimensional chess.

ject said:
Plan to join EU was dropped by 2013.
2014 Donbass saga starts,



Sure, joining EU was the cause....

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it was. The Euromaiden Revolution began in September, the day after Yanukovich declined to sign:
“[This decree is] to suspend the process of preparations for the conclusion of the Association Agreement between Ukraine, on the one part, and the European Union, the European Atomic Energy Community and its Member States, on the other part, and to suspend the decision of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine dated September 18, 2013, on the preparation for the signing of the draft association agreement between Ukraine, on the one part, and the European Union and its member states, on the other part.”
Smith, Christopher M.. Ukraine's Revolt, Russia's Revenge (pp. 59-60). Brookings Institution Press. Kindle Edition.

ject said:
On Thursday night and into Friday morning [9/19/13 and 9/20/13], our local staff began noticing an increasing number of calls for a protest downtown on Saturday [9/21/13]. It started when Mustafa Nayem, a young Kyiv-based journalist born in Kabul, wrote on his Facebook page, “Come on guys, let’s be serious, don’t just ‘like’ this post. Write that you are ready and we can try to start something.” Receiving an overwhelming response, he suggested that young people upset with Yanukovych’s abrupt U-turn meet downtown at Maidan. This is when I read the word Euromaidan for the first time in Facebook messages our staff forwarded to let us know what was circulating on social media. Its meaning was immediately clear—a pro-European version of the frequent protests on Kyiv’s most important square. While the word Maidan literally just meant “the square,” it was frequently associated with political protest. Protests there in 1989 and 2001 preceded the massive Orange Revolution protests on Maidan in 2004.

Malcolm wrote:
Smith, Christopher M.. Ukraine's Revolt, Russia's Revenge (p. 61). Brookings Institution Press. Kindle Edition.

As a result of the Euromaiden revolt, Yanukovich fled to Moscow February 21, 2014. He was ousted on 2/22, and a new government was formed.  Russia invaded Crimea on 2/27/2014. So yes, the Russian invasion was directly related to the suppression of Ukrainian ambitions to join the EU.

You really should read this book, as Smith was working at the US embassy during the entire time and it is a living witness. He provides a detailed account, and:
“So, a lot is happening in Ukraine right now,” the Russian continued, finally getting more to the point. “What really interests me is this—does your government seek the removal of Yanukovych? Is that a US goal?” “No,” I responded, unequivocally. “We’ve had our share of issues with the Yanukovych government, and are very concerned about the corruption in his team. But he was democratically elected, and he should leave according to the ballot box as well. We’re not in the business of seeking the ouster of democratically elected leaders.”

I said this because it was true. While the lengthy record of US interventions in Latin America will forever be cited by those seeking to label the United States a serial meddler, I wasn’t working for the Eisenhower administration. I had seen no evidence that anyone in the US government was interested in taking heavy-handed actions of any sort in Ukraine. On the contrary, Yanukovych’s corruption caused a disappointed Washington to step back from the relationship and increasingly ignore Ukraine. No one wanted to get more involved. We didn’t want to break it; we didn’t want to buy it. Wishing the Ukrainian people well, we just wanted the Ukrainian government to get its act together at last.

The Russian diplomat and I spoke for about a half hour. No one interrupted us or attempted to join the conversation. Even assuming that my every word would be quickly reported back to Moscow, I didn’t find it difficult to engage him, but nothing I said even mildly dented his paranoid conviction that the United States was somehow driving Euromaidan. I knew that was not the case. Our truthful message to Moscow and everyone else was one and the same. When our inconclusive conversation finished, Maksimov brought everyone together for one more toast, then broke up the event.
Smith, Christopher M.. Ukraine's Revolt, Russia's Revenge (pp. 80-81). Brookings Institution Press. Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Lingpupa said:
IME it's only in certain corners of Internet Buddhism that "dzogchen without sadhana" is given much credence. As an approach to certain phases of some close retreats, yes indeed, but as a description of the path, I'm not so sure. If anyone can offer references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana I will be very interested. Ten million Vajra Guru mantras and all the rest of the foundations is something you'll find much more widely practiced.

It seems to be associated with a trend to excepionalist attitudes, not far off sectarian, and with a crude fetishization of "direct introduction".

Zoey85 said:
Crude fetishization of "direct introduction"? What do you mean by this? We need DI before we can practice dzogchen, so it's crucial.

As far as living dzogchen practitioners who "do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana" I'm guessing you won't find too many who 'have not' ever practiced sadhanas etc but probably quite a few who 'do not' anymore or do not for a time. It's a thing. It's in the literature.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a certain strand of "conservatism" amongst some Nyingmapas, who feel if one has not done three ngondros, three roots, and so on, one has no right to call oneself a Dzogchen practitioner, as Alex indicates above with his 10 million mantras, and so on. But as ChNN stated, and as it bears repeating, Garab Dorje never said do 100k of this and that, he said first, "encounter your own state" aka direct introduction, "ngo rang thog tu sprad." So that's what we do, we fetishize the f**k out of direct introduction because that is the method our teacher taught us. Is that crude enough for you, Alex?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
ject said:
To be very clear, I am not justifying Russian attack on UA or anyone else. I also know very well what a hell-hole USSR was and how much damage this leftist lunacy has caused to mankind.

Malcolm wrote:
Ukraine was invaded by Russia in 2014 because they wanted to join the EU. Seems like their aspirations to be a liberal democracy have only increased since 2014. Now Russia has 800 extra NATO miles on their border. Good move Russia! Guess Putin is playing fifth dimensional chess.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: debating and attitude in the meantime
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
I think, as a translator, you of all people should know the importance of accuracy when it comes to citing.

Malcolm wrote:
There is always a trade off between literalism and actual meaning.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Posing is generally done to create a false impression about oneself upon others, and involves pretending. But pretending, by itself, doesn’t necessarily involve posing. Especially in the context of Buddhist practice, and perhaps greatly in Tibetan Buddhism which provides so many props and activities. it’s easy to pretend to oneself that one is sincerely practicing, without ever even cutting through one layer of mental bullshit, without developing any genuine compassion.

I don’t know if this is what jet.urgyen was suggesting, and admittedly I am not familiar specifically with his previous posts or general tone used when posting. But I would be interested in hearing his (or maybe it’s her) defense of that term.

Malcolm wrote:
He said that most people in the DC were pretending to be realized. I and others took umbrage at his suggestion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 8:54 PM
Title: Re: debating and attitude in the meantime
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
Please fellows, let's stay on topic, on the propper manner.

I already made a respectful debate question to Malcolm and for 3 days it remained unanswered, and then the topic got closed because the discussion produced much agitation.

Malcolm wrote:
I answered your question. You were not satisfied with the answer. You wanted to know why there were no realized people in the DC, I told you no one can tell from outside who is realized and who is not.

If you want respect, you have to show respect.


jet.urgyen said:
Certainly it is not good, for the sake of the conversation, to reach the level of insults.


Malcolm wrote:
Someone should have thought of that before they insulted the Dzogchen Community, someone who apparently now is pleading for civil discourse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: debating and attitude in the meantime
Content:



PadmaVonSamba said:
I find this to be an interesting discussion. But searching posts, I didn’t see where the word  “posers” was used.

Malcolm wrote:
“Pretender” was the actual word. Same meaning.

PadmaVonSamba said:
I think, as a translator, you of all people should know the importance of accuracy when it comes to citing.

Malcolm wrote:
There is always a trade off between literalism and actual meaning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:




Kai lord said:
Honestly I have difficulty picturing (for example) any Dudjom Throma practitioner putting their sadhanas and stop doing their chod even when they are engaging in Ati yoga practices.


Sādhaka said:
If you read a Dzogchen manual such as Yeshe Lama or Heart Essence/Drops of Kuntuzangpo/Dharmakaya, it/they indicates what Malcolm said there.

Kai lord said:
That is in theory, I was pointing out the practicality.


Given that transformative night times practices like dream yoga and luminosity greatly aid practitioners to extend their abiding in the natural state well beyond the waking hours, those practices are worth spending some effort & time on.

Norwegian said:
Dzogchen has its own practices for the night, which don't have anything to do with the path of transformation.

Kai lord said:
Yes and those night times yogas are in nowhere less "complicated" than those anuyoga practices. Both still require considerable amount of effort.


Malcolm wrote:
We don’t use those in the DC. That’s where the disconnect you are experiencing is coming from. Our practice of the night is extremely simple, does not involve recognizing the dream, then transforming the dream, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: debating and attitude in the meantime
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?

Malcolm wrote:
One might start by not calling an entire group of people “posers.”

PadmaVonSamba said:
I find this to be an interesting discussion. But searching posts, I didn’t see where the word  “posers” was used.

Malcolm wrote:
“Pretender” was the actual word. Same meaning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 8:03 PM
Title: Re: Breathing instructions during Song of Vajra according to ChNN
Content:
Ati108 said:
Are there any indications as to when exactly we should inhale and exhale during this practice? I have not found answers in DC materials. Thank you for any information on this.

Malcolm wrote:
The oral instruction is to breath where Rinpoche breaks the line. Coordinating your breath when singing SOV is very important in this practice.

Ati108 said:
What do you mean by breaks the line? Do you mean to follow the rhythm by listening to Rinpoche as other have suggested, or are you referring to line breaks according to how the written SOV text appears?

Malcolm wrote:
The latter. When singing mantras, in the DC we always breathe where the mantra is broken. Same with SOV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 7:55 PM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:



Kai lord said:
Isn't that the infamous complaint that Adi Shankara had for Madhyamaka? Which also drove him to ignore Madhyamaka in its entirety when criticizing various different Buddhist's positions.

Malcolm wrote:
Shankara ignored Madhyamaka because he cribbed his arguments from Madhyamaka, which Shantaraksita busts him for in the Tattvasamgraha.

Kai lord said:
Since they were contemporary, it begged the question of why neither Kamalaśīla nor Shantaraksita bother seeking Shankara out and defeated him in a live debate given the latter's vast influence in the vedic circle and anti buddhist tendencies

Oh, you mean the text where Mipham confesses his undying allegiance to Prasangika,
You went over the fact that he subtly criticised gelug prasangika a lot and labeled them as disguised  Svātantrika.

Malcolm wrote:
As to first point, the Tattvasamgraha was written after Shankara passed away. As to the second point, this is just recycled Gorampa, like much of Mipham’s Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: Which lineage does Ati Yoga belong?
Content:
Dawa Ösel said:
[Mod note: ]In order to prevent off topic discussion this topic has been split from here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=664994#p664994


Sorry for the question, but ist Ati Guru Yoga some DC/ChNN exclusive thing? What does it mean exactly?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes and no. Most guru yogas related to Dzogchen are anuyiga style practices, for example, the Chetsun Nyingthig, or Guru Yoga of the White A of Norbu Rinpoche, among others. Ati Guru Yoga itself comes from the teachings of CHNN, but one can find corollaries for n other terma cycles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 7:32 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Lingpupa said:
IME it's only in certain corners of Internet Buddhism that "dzogchen without sadhana" is given much credence. As an approach to certain phases of some close retreats, yes indeed, but as a description of the path, I'm not so sure. If anyone can offer references to acknowledged, non-mythical, living dzogchen practitioners who do not and have not practiced extensive sadhana I will be very interested. Ten million Vajra Guru mantras and all the rest of the foundations is something you'll find much more widely practiced.

It seems to be associated with a trend to excepionalist attitudes, not far off sectarian, and with a crude fetishization of "direct introduction".

Malcolm wrote:
Your estimate is a bit off.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 11:10 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Your realist proclivities are showing.

stong gzugs said:
Being able to describe a tenet system, doesn't imply that one embraces it.
the atman is defined in Vedanta as incapable of being objectified (as it is always the witnessing awareness and never the object of awareness being witnessed), and anything you can refute through analytical meditation is necessarily an object of awareness, you can't refute the atman using Nagarjuna's methods.

Malcolm wrote:
The very fact it can be held to be a witness means it has already been defined as a subject in dependence on an object, hence dependent and relative. The conventional existence of a cognizing  subject does not entail the consequence that cognizing subject exists ultimately or is immune to analysis.

stong gzugs said:
This is why Sankara's refutation was so short, these traditions start from completely different premises. You are, following Madhyamaka, giving primacy to argumentation, saying witnessing awareness can be refuted using an argument and therefore doesn't exist ultimately. Shankara, following Vedanta, is giving primacy to phenomenology, saying that even if you conduct such a refutation, your awareness while doing so is still aware of the refutation, so it must exist ultimately. Just a difference in premises about whether to favor arguments over experience.

Malcolm wrote:
That conclusion does not follow from the premise. The premise is faulty, so the conclusion is invalid. It’s a false consciousness, that’s why it is invalid. It has nothing to with argument and everything to with perception, an incorrect perception of the way things are. Claiming something is beyond concepts, therefore it can’t be refuted is a fool’s argument.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 9:09 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
I really don't know where you get this from: "eventually a Dzogchen practitioner has to put sadhanas and recitations down completely". None of my masters including ChNNR did that. Thinking that is a limitation.

Malcolm wrote:
No Magnus, it is not a limitation. But I am not going to argue with you about it. But training in silence is very important.

heart said:
Of course it is a limitation.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if you think so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 8:52 AM
Title: Re: debating and attitude in the meantime
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
As many of us have discussions over the forum, is there any etiquette principles for debating dharma related matters? Insults and silence are allowed when there's no argument or when someone doesn't like how it goes?

Malcolm wrote:
One might start by not calling an entire group of people “posers.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 8:46 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
Don't "need" is dependent on rigpa being stable. When rigpa isn't stable it is a very different story.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. The path of transformation is an option for those who don’t have confidence Dzogchen teachings, but honestly, one’s time is better spent working directly with the methods taught in the Dzogchen tantras themselves.

jet.urgyen said:
Malcolm, the path of transformation only adds more capabilities to the ati yogin. One is certainly not intended to set the mala aside, one is not only practicing for oneself.

Malcolm wrote:
One doesn’t need a mala in  order to benefit others. That capacity is already inherent in one’s primordial state, as thugs rje.

But that’s not what I am referring to here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 8:12 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Shankara ignored Madhyamaka because he cribbed his arguments from Madhyamaka, which Shantaraksita busts him for in the Tattvasamgraha.

stong gzugs said:
His take on Madhyamaka is in the Brahma Sutra Bhasya, as I mentioned to Kai Lord above.
As to your other question, from my reading, Śankara and most Hindu critics of Buddhism primarily emphasize problems with the radical doctrine of momentariness, which makes it hard to explain many important functions of human memory. They found Dignaga and Dharmakirti way more interesting interlocutors than Nagarjuna for such reasons as you mention. Namely, to summarize their argument, because the atman is defined in Vedanta as incapable of being objectified (as it is always the witnessing awareness and never the object of awareness being witnessed), and anything you can refute through analytical meditation is necessarily an object of awareness, you can't refute the atman using Nagarjuna's methods. So, the kind of self that can be refuted is one that Advaita doesn't accept anyways (the five skandhas, the pudgala, the koshas, the ahamkara, the dualistic manas, etc.) Śankara offers this as a critique of Madhyamaka in the Brahma Sutra Bhasya, which if I recall correctly, basically tosses a moment of self-inquiry into the mix. You do some sort of analytical meditation to realize no-self, and then Śankara pops up and says "And to whom did this realization occur?" If the awareness that realized no-self exists, then this is what is meant by the atman, and if the awareness doesn't exist, then the realization is impossible.

Malcolm wrote:
Your realist proclivities are showing.

stong gzugs said:
the atman is defined in Vedanta as incapable of being objectified (as it is always the witnessing awareness and never the object of awareness being witnessed), and anything you can refute through analytical meditation is necessarily an object of awareness, you can't refute the atman using Nagarjuna's methods.

Malcolm wrote:
The very fact it can be held to be a witness means it has already been defined as a subject in dependence on an object, hence dependent and relative. The conventional existence of a cognizing  subject does not entail the consequence that cognizing subject exists ultimately or is immune to analysis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 7:55 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


heart said:
Don't "need" is dependent on rigpa being stable. When rigpa isn't stable it is a very different story.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. The path of transformation is an option for those who don’t have confidence Dzogchen teachings, but honestly, one’s time is better spent working directly with the methods taught in the Dzogchen tantras themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 6:10 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Got a favorite reading on these discussions?

Kai lord said:
https://books.google.com.sg/books/about/The_Adornment_of_the_Middle_Way.html?id=LPMRr-V9BFQC&redir_esc=y

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, you mean the text where Mipham confesses his undying allegiance to Prasangika,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 6:06 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
The "I hold no views, but just point out the errors in others' views" is obviously a cheap rhetorical trick

Malcolm wrote:
No

stong gzugs said:
I'll start another thread on this at some point. It's an interesting and important debate.

Malcolm wrote:
The Uttaratantra comments on cessation...

In sutrayāna, this can only be discovered apophatically.

stong gzugs said:
The Vyakhya glosses cessation using the Śrīmālādevīsiṃhanādasūtra as follows:
The name “cessation of suffering,” Bhagavan, indicates the dharmakaya of the Tathagata, which is beginningless, unproduced, unborn, unarisen, without extinction, free from extinction, permanent, eternal, peaceful, everlasting, naturally pure, free from the cocoon of all. afflictions, and endowed with inseparable and inconceivable buddha attributes that far surpass the sand grains in the river Ganga [in number]. {D81a} Bhagavan, this very dharmakaya of the Tathagata that is not freed from the cocoon of the afflictions is called “tathagata heart.”
Hardly apophatic. It then continues:

Malcolm wrote:
You neglected to mention that in this sutra it is declared unequivocally that only tathāgatas can see tathāgatagarbha, aka dharmakāya.




stong gzugs said:
Gzhanstong all day long.

Malcolm wrote:
No, silly, this is entirely apophatic:

When neither characteristics nor focal objects are seen, true reality is seen.

That's why Shantideva states:

When neither an existent nor a nonexistent appear before the mind, 
at that time, there being no alternative, [the mind] is pacified.

And:

The ultimate is not within the domain of the mind, 
the mind is relative.
I mentioned before that the Uttaratantra and Candra are perfectly consistent with each other
I mean, kinda. Cāndrakīrti calls it of expedient meaning, so he can interpret away the parts that conflict with his worldview. Ratnākaraśānti points out flaws in his understanding of cessation and, as I've been saying, the 8th Karmapa, Mikyo Dorje, explains why, the "we have no view" is simply a rhetorical cover-up.
Candra cites the Lanka, where tathāgatagarbha is described as a salve for those afraid of emptiness. Commenting on the same passage, since the Lanka identifies the all-basis consciousness with tathāgatagarbha, Jayānanda notes that here, the ālaya should be understood to be emptiness, and consciousness, to be the consciousness that apprehends that emptiness. This is why the Sakyapas maintain, contra the Gelukpas, that the all-basis consciousness is actually acceptable to Prasangikas.

Candrakirti and others identify the [fact that] the nature of phenomena is not seen by the ultimate nature of phenomena as “seeing ultimate reality.” However, let alone speaking of this as the ultimate, they would have to accept many contradictions in their own systems even in terms of words [on the level] of seeming [reality]. Therefore, in order to eliminate this flaw, they say, “We Madhyamikas have no assertion whatsoever.”
This is a specious objection. Not worth the bytes it took to copy it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 5:54 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
The "I hold no views, but just point out the errors in others' views" is obviously a cheap rhetorical trick in a polemical context (to dodge critiques of one's own (albeit masked) positive assertions)

Kai lord said:
Isn't that the infamous complaint that Adi Shankara had for Madhyamaka? Which also drove him to ignore Madhyamaka in its entirety when criticizing various different Buddhist's positions.

Malcolm wrote:
Shankara ignored Madhyamaka because he cribbed his arguments from Madhyamaka, which Shantaraksita busts him for in the Tattvasamgraha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
Well, I am sure you can find a good quote somewhere but I feel that thinking that the "nine yānas are all deviations from our own nature" is a very intellectual point that really have no basis in the practical Dzogchen tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
Magnus, it is repeated so many times in Dzogchen literature I have lost count. It has a real basis in the practical Dzogchen tradition. Why else would it be repeated over and over and over and over again? Norbu Rinpoche makes specific point of citing how Mahāyoga and Anuyoga are hindrances to the Dzogchen in the Precious Vase.

heart said:
It is only a hindrance if you haven't recognised the nature of your mind. Once you have it is a limitation to think that it is a hindrance.

Malcolm wrote:
If one has discovered instant presence, one does not need to rely on the path of transformation any more, unless you need to deal with some karmic issue, like longevity, illness, or some karmic obstacle. But once you have discovered instant presence, you do not take lower yānas as your path any longer. That is the deviation being referred to.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
I really don't know where you get this from: "eventually a Dzogchen practitioner has to put sadhanas and recitations down completely". None of my masters including ChNNR did that. Thinking that is a limitation.

Malcolm wrote:
No Magnus, it is not a limitation. But I am not going to argue with you about it. But training in silence is very important.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
So that is what you think you are doing, encouraging people? I am not really a teacher so I don't really have an agenda like that I just think it is a great mistake putting down any kind of methods that belong to the nine yanas. They are all arranged in order to help us realise our own nature.

Malcolm wrote:
From the point of view of the Great Perfection, the nine yānas are all deviations from our own nature.

heart said:
Well, I am sure you can find a good quote somewhere but I feel that thinking that the "nine yānas are all deviations from our own nature" is a very intellectual point that really have no basis in the practical Dzogchen tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
Magnus, it is repeated so many times in Dzogchen literature I have lost count. It has a real basis in the practical Dzogchen tradition. Why else would it be repeated over and over and over and over again? Norbu Rinpoche makes specific point of citing how Mahāyoga and Anuyoga are hindrances to the Dzogchen in the Precious Vase.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
Sadhanas are very helpful for abiding in rigpa and for this reason there are such practices in for example the Lama Yangtik.

Malcolm wrote:
There are five guru yogas in Lama Yanthik (two are basically the same), one long life practice, and one dakini practice, as well as a lengthy Ganapuja connected with the empowerment, but they make up a very small fraction of the 600 or so folios of the whole cycle.

But most of Lama Yanthig is focused trekchö and thogal.

Of course we always connect our practice with guru yoga.

But the main point is discovering and then continuing in instant presence. And for that, for example, ChNN has many precise methods, some connected with anuyoga methods, for example Lama Khandro Thugthig, but most are not.

You like practicing sadhanas, that works for you. But it does not work for everyone, and in this modern age, it is working for less and less people as the age of mantra is slowly coming to an end. And eventually a Dzogchen practitioner has to put sadhanas and recitations down completely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Kai lord said:
Great experiences like bliss, clarity & non conceptualization (absence of thoughts) do arise during anuyoga practices.

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa distinguishes between this kind of bliss, clarity, and nonconceptuality, with the bliss, clarity, and nonconceptuality that arises in instant presence:

Further, the vivid clarity of the state of the naturally abiding mind and the clarity of vidyā that is settled naturally are similar in that they are both clear and nonconceptual. However, since there is a protrusion of subject and object in the mind aspect, there is a slight clinging to calmness. Since there is uninterrupted pellucidity in vidya, this is a huge difference.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
Ati Guru Yoga means using mind to go beyond mind.

Malcolm wrote:
For beginners.

Once one has discovered instant presence, it a different practice, then it is the means for continuing in that state, whether for 10 seconds or ten minutes, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:



heart said:
I am not resisting it, been doing it for 30 years now Malcolm, dropping in to rigpa that is.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you should be more encouraging and less discouraging.

heart said:
So that is what you think you are doing, encouraging people? I am not really a teacher so I don't really have an agenda like that I just think it is a great mistake putting down any kind of methods that belong to the nine yanas. They are all arranged in order to help us realise our own nature.

Malcolm wrote:
From the point of view of the Great Perfection, the nine yānas are all deviations from our own nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Zoey85 said:
And I'm sorry that you think people who have attained some stability in rigpa are kidding themselves.

Malcolm wrote:
Magnus has a lot of stability in expressing his doubts about other peoples practice. Isn't that right, old friend?

heart said:
It is based on my own experience and the teaching of my masters and really I don't have much doubts about this point.

Malcolm wrote:
You express a lot of doubt about how people in the DC practice and you are very discouraging to others. In general, Dzogchen is not so hard. It does not take nearly as much effort as some people claim it does. Norbu Rinpoche was an extremely encouraging teacher. He never discouraged anyone. He made sure that everyone had the possibility of liberation through Dzogchen teachings, at the very least, liberation in the buddhafields. He didn't believe in the two accumulation model of attaining buddhahood. He told us to discover our primordial state right now, which is already perfect, and if distracted, recognize it again and again and again, practicing Ati Guru yoga constantly day and night, giving ourselves direct introduction constantly. If we have time for more elaborate practices, great. But if not, also no problem. He also said that understanding was more important than meditating--this is key point that differentiates Norbu Rinpoche's approach from other teachers. One won't expose rig pa by meditating sadhanas, etc. Longchenpa is extremely clear about this. If someone has a good understanding, then whatever they do becomes Dzogchen practice. If someone has no understanding, then even practicing Thigle Gyacan or Chetsun Nyinthig will never become Dzogchen practice no matter how many pretty words those sadhanas contain. I know you know this and agree, so lighten up please.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
If you prefer you can do rushan, semdzins or sing the song of the vajra for an hour. But abiding in rigpa for an hour is not an option for most of us and if we think it is we are likely kidding ourselves.

Malcolm wrote:
Once one has exposed rig pa, one can "drop into it", to use Sangye Khandro's lingo, whenever one wants.

Just do it, stop resisting, and drop into rig pa.

heart said:
I am not resisting it, been doing it for 30 years now Malcolm, dropping in to rigpa that is.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you should be more encouraging and less discouraging.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 4:54 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
But abiding in rigpa for an hour is not an option for most of us and if we think it is we are likely kidding ourselves.

natusake said:
Right, but nobody claimed this is what was happening or anything. You brought it up out of the blue.

heart said:
It seems to me you where discussing what was the best way to spend your formal daily practice, at least Zoey did.  Saying that spending your practice "abiding in rigpa" was a lot better then "complex anuyoga practices". I used the example of an hour of daily practice in order to make it clear that "abiding in rigpa" is not really a viable possibility for an hour of practice.

Malcolm wrote:
And hour is made of minutes. An hour spent abiding in short moments of instant presence is more useful than an hour spent reciting a bunch of words in distraction, saving it all up until the end.

One can drop into rig pa any time with Atiguru yoga. And it is very possible to be in a state of instant presence for the duration of the song of the vajra. I know you think you are being helpful, but you aren't, really. You are just sowing your own doubts in other peoples minds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Zoey85 said:
And I'm sorry that you think people who have attained some stability in rigpa are kidding themselves.

Malcolm wrote:
Magnus has a lot of stability in expressing his doubts about other peoples practice. Isn't that right, old friend?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
heart said:
If you prefer you can do rushan, semdzins or sing the song of the vajra for an hour. But abiding in rigpa for an hour is not an option for most of us and if we think it is we are likely kidding ourselves.

Malcolm wrote:
Once one has exposed rig pa, one can "drop into it", to use Sangye Khandro's lingo, whenever one wants.

Just do it, stop resisting, and drop into rig pa.

After that, practice is just recognizing when one is distracted, and dropping back into rig pa.

Instant presence
Mindfulness and awareness
Work with circumstances
Do your best

These are four crucial pieces of advice of ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point is that you have already admitted this is just so much conceptual language. That means it is provisional, not definitive. The real issue between gzhan stong pas and gelukapas is whether or not this verbal description is to be taken literally or not. You both agree that meditative equipoise is free of proliferation, where such conceptualizations are absent. So in the end, you are just arguing about how the room is decorated.

When it comes to Vajrayāna, it does not really matter what post-equipoise view one holds. That's why I regard all these polemics to be total bullshit, though sometimes entertaining. What matters in Vajrayāna is the example wisdom, not analytical wisdom.

stong gzugs said:
but I've seen Geluk practice texts and they change the actual practices from even what their source of Buton laid out, in ways that read their rangtong view into the yoga and may produce different experiences of aspected vs.non-aspected emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Gelukpas in general, do not accept the example wisdom to be insight, they claim it is a special calm-abiding, and insist that one must supplement one's sadhana practice with analytical analysis.
It isn't, no more than pointing out the error of asserting hair on tortoises is view.
The "I hold no views, but just point out the errors in others' views" is obviously a cheap rhetorical trick
No:

Verse 400 from Aryadeva's 400 Verses:

The one who has no position concerning
concerning existence, nonexistence, and both existence and nonexistence,
cannot be refuted 
even after a long while.

in a polemical context (to dodge critiques of one's own (albeit masked) positive assertions) and a questionable method for actually eliminating conceptualization (because one is still using conceptual mind to eliminate these views in analytical meditation, and thus developing habits of subtle conceptualization that could be overcome by more profound modes of meditation).
This is just not the case. You've already admitted that there are no extremes of existence to be found in the ultimate, and that āryan equipoise is free of proliferation of extremes, well, since there are no extremes found in ultimate analysis. If there was something to find, there might be a fault, but since you already admit there is nothing to find, you are just being attached to words and concepts. The Uttaratantra comments on cessation:

I bow to the sun of the Dharma, that which is not nonexistent, nor existent, not both existent and nonexistent, and not other than existent and nonexistent, which cannot be analyzed, is undefinable, to be personally known, peaceful, endowed with the light rays of immaculate gnosis, which destroy attachment, aversion, and confusion with regard to all objects.

This is the inexpressibility personally-known gnosis that one discovers through systematically going through the four extremes. As the Uttaratantra continues:

Unthinkable, nondual, nonconceptual, 
pure, clear, antidotal, 
free of attachment, freeing from attachment, 
having the characteristic of the two truths.

Freedom from attachment includes
the truths of cessation and the path,
according to the proper sequence,
to be known through the three former and three latter qualities. 

Because it can't be analyze conceptually, nor expressed, 
because it is known by the āryas, because it unthinkable, 
because it is peace, without the two, 
like the sun, with the trio of purity, so on.

In sutrayāna, this can only be discovered apophatically. I mentioned before that the Uttaratantra and Candra are perfectly consistent with each other, and indeed Longchenpa does just that throughout his commentaries, as does Gorampa.

As Nagārjuna states, the dharma of the Buddha is the two truths. There are not more than two truths. The ultimate truth is inexpressible, beyond all extremes. It is arrived at by negating the extremes one by one and by no other way, because the profound emptiness of Mahāyāna is freedom from four extremes.

KTGR said:
"...many Shentong masters criticize the Prasangika Madhyamikas for their claim that they do not hold any views. In the opinion of these masters, Prasangikas just dodge the issue because they refute everyone else's views and then avoid the refutation of their own views by claiming not to have any."

Malcolm wrote:
A mādhyamika does not hold views about ultimate existence; obviously they hold views about all kinds of conventional phenomena.

KTGR said:
Cabezón sees this as a shot at Chokden. Do you disagree?

Malcolm wrote:
There were many people who held gzhan stong views in Sakya when Gorampa was writing, that is why he scolds them by reminding them of Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen's passage in rin po che ljon zhing. It was so bad, that the Sakya Trizin of the day had to do a mo with four-face Mahākala to see whose view was to be enshrined as the canonical Sakya view.


KTGR said:
I don't have any opinion on the founding of Sakya, I'm just stating what Sakya Chokden and Jonang Kunga Drolchok argued. I think you mentioned somewhere that you studied with them for awhile before switching to Dzogchen, so I'm sure you're more invested in this question than I am.

Malcolm wrote:
My education is Sakya. I didn't switch to Dzogchen, my Sakya teacher sent me to study with Norbu Rinpoche in 1992, who was also educated in Sakya. The latter frequently describes Dzogchen view as follows:

If I have a position, I would be guilty. 
As I alone have no position, I alone am not guilty.

When it comes to sutra and lower tantras, up to the level of Hevajra and Kalacakra, my opinions are pretty much inline with Sakyapa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
That’s the thing, the act of using “mind based” practices to tune the mind and make it serviceable for the main practice is pretty much an ongoing thing for all but the most advanced folks. Lots of recipes, but there are some common ingredients.

Malcolm wrote:
Exercises appropriate for teens and young people to calm them down are not appropriate for mature people.

One point that gets lost in all of this is the profound level of illiteracy there was in Tibet as well as the need to create regimented programs.

Dzogchen doesn't do well in monasteries and never did. But people keep coming here and opening up Dharna centers on the Tibetan model, and expect it is going to work. Well, it isn't working and thank goodness for ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:



ject said:
Ukraine became independent 1991. By 2014, US was already knee deep in Ukraine's business. I am sure it was exiting and lucrative. After all, UA was one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. By that time, Donetsk and Luhansk had enough of getting constantly F'ed by Kiev, so they demanded autonomy. Agreements with Kiev turned out to be just delay tactics (even Merkel admitted it).

Malcolm wrote:
That's the vatnik trope, its not really very accurate.

ject said:
Do you even have a single counter argument? You got nothing except calling me a vatnik, what ever that means. I thought you are one of the few grown-ups here.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't have time to do all your reading for you. I am just telling you that you are repeating Russian propaganda spouted by Chomsky, Mershiemer, Arron Mate, etc., hence "vatnik." Look it up.



Re missles:


Russia:

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/nuclear-weapons-europe-mapping-us-and-russian-deployments

We have about 100 nuclear bombs stored in vaults at six bases in the EU. No missiles:

https://armscontrolcenter.org/fact-sheet-u-s-nuclear-weapons-in-europe/

Here is the map:

https://blog.batchgeo.com/nuclear-locations-worldwide/




ject said:
False? What exactly

Malcolm wrote:
The idea that the US promised not to allow Ukraine into NATO. This is just factually false. Total nonsense.



ject said:
Of course it will and you know it.

Malcolm wrote:
It's bullshit. Russia has an economy, which, at best, is the same size as that of Italy. All it has going for it is oil, and very little of it benefitted Russians (other than white people in Russia).


ject said:
Are you talking about the breakaway regions? Do you even know why they wanted their independence from Kiev?

Malcolm wrote:
I am quite aware of the situation with the "seperatists", and it is not this simplistic picture you paint. Chris Smith writes about it in his Ukraine's Revolt, Russias Revenge, which is a day by day account of the Euromaidem revolt, and the illegal occupation of Crimea and Donetsk and Luhantz, etc. He writes:

In another lighter moment, as separatists demanded a referendum on Donetsk joining Russia, a group of local residents declared that they would have another referendum the same day to ask whether Donetsk should join the UK. Donetsk is a town with an interesting history, and there was a reason why these jokesters chose the UK. It was initially founded in 1869 by Welsh industrialist John Hughes, whose statue stands in the city center. To mock the separatists and their slogans, such as “Glory to Russia!” and “Donetsk is a Russian City!” the group posted slogans such as “Donetsk is a British city! God Save the Queen!” It was a clever parody, but parodies alone weren’t going to beat the well-funded guys

Smith, Christopher M.. Ukraine's Revolt, Russia's Revenge (p. 321). Brookings Institution Press. Kindle Edition.

And:

Donetsk separatists announced that they were preparing to hold a referendum on May 11 with a single question, “Do you support the creation of the Donetsk People’s Republic?” There was no clarity about whether this was a “republic” within Ukraine, as the “Crimean Republic” had been for many years within Ukraine, something more independent, or just a pit stop on the road to Russian annexation. The complete lack of clarity about the goals of the separatists also pertained to the other great question about them: Who the hell were they? These were not even marginal political figures; they were not political figures at all on the local scene. People such as self-declared “Donetsk people’s mayor” Denis Pushilin and his counterpart in Slovyansk Vyacheslav Ponomaryov had never even been players in local politics before. They materialized out of nowhere with the help of the anonymous but heavily armed “little green men.” Without their foreign military backers, it would be doubtful that anyone would ever have heard of them.

Smith, Christopher M.. Ukraine's Revolt, Russia's Revenge (p. 347). Brookings Institution Press. Kindle Edition.

You should read it. It might actually remove the fog of vatnik propaganda you've been huffing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Russia could have accepted the loss of Ukraine. Ukraine could have forgone its dreams of genuine independence

ject said:
Ukraine became independent 1991. By 2014, US was already knee deep in Ukraine's business. I am sure it was exiting and lucrative. After all, UA was one of the most corrupt countries in Europe. By that time, Donetsk and Luhansk had enough of getting constantly F'ed by Kiev, so they demanded autonomy. Agreements with Kiev turned out to be just delay tactics (even Merkel admitted it).

Malcolm wrote:
That's the vatnik trope, its not really very accurate.



ject said:
NATO could have rejected the pleas of potential new members.
(I assume you have seen the map of NATO and US mil bases).
For fun, Imagine if Russian lunatics had mil bases in Cuba, Mexio and Canada

Malcolm wrote:
Another vatnik trope, and false.

ject said:
US promised not to push NATO into Ukraine. That was the deal they made a long time ago and it kept everyone happy until idiots in Washington got a "brilliant idea" - lets start poking the idiots in Moscow... and here we are now.

Malcolm wrote:
False again, but that's what the vatniks like to claim.

ject said:
In short: US needed a new enemy and there nothing better than a old one. Ukraine was a perfect patsy for the proxy war.
As an added bonus, this move destroyed any chance for economic cooperation between EU and RU.
Do you actually understand what would happen if RU and EU started to do serious business and US was told to take a hike? Bad news for petro-dollar.

Malcolm wrote:
Another vatnik trope that does not stand up to analysis.

ject said:
In many respects, the problem of blame boils down to what one thinks of Russia’s claim on Ukraine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We’ve already established that all your blather about qualities and so on is just so much verbal hot air

stong gzugs said:
No. I established above that the Ratnagotravibhāga describes buddha qualities to humble arrogant rangtongpas. (If the shoe fits...)

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that you have already admitted this is just so much conceptual language. That means it is provisional, not definitive. The real issue between gzhan stong pas and gelukapas is whether or not this verbal description is to be taken literally or not. You both agree that meditative equipoise is free of proliferation, where such conceptualizations are absent. So in the end, you are just arguing about how the room is decorated.

When it comes to Vajrayāna, it does not really matter what post-equipoise view one holds. That's why I regard all these polemics to be total bullshit, though sometimes entertaining. What matters in Vajrayāna is the example wisdom, not analytical wisdom.


Longchenpa states:

Within this dhātu that has always been naturally perfected,
samsara is Samantabhadra, nirvana is Samantabhadra,
but there is never been samsara or nirvana in the dimension of Samantabhadra.
Appearance is Samantabhadra, emptiness is Samantabhadra, 
but there is never been appearance or emptiness in the dimension of Samantabhadra.
Birth and death are Samantabhadra, happiness and suffering are Samantabhadra, 
but there is never been happiness and suffering or birth and death in the dimension of Samantabhadra.
Self and other is Samantabhadra, permanence and annihilation are Samantabhadra, 
but there is never been self and other or permanence and annihilation in the dimension of Samantabhadra.

He comments:

Since vidyā bodhicitta has never been established in the space-like essence, whatever appears such as samsara and nirvana, appearance and emptiness, birth and death, happiness and suffering, self and other has never been established. Since those appearances as a mere state, potential, or play self-appear without ceasing and due to the absence of inherent existence in appearances—like illusions, dreams, moons in the water, optical illusions, fairy castles, and emanations—all phenomena of samsara and nirvana have never existed from the moment they appear, are baseless, and never move from transcendent state of Samantabhadra and Samantabhadri.

That includes all your qualities. Longchenapa's two favorite Indian treatises to cite from are the Uttaratantra and the Madhyamaka-avatara. He often cites them side by side.
“All views of emptiness are a source of error.”
Sounds like a view of emptiness to me.
It isn't, no more than pointing out the error of asserting hair on tortoises is view.

Gorampa's "Jonang is eternalist, Geluk is nihilist, the middle way is between them" isn't exactly groundbreaking stuff. Plus Gorampa's critiques of Jonang are basically derivative of Rendawa. He should have studied Dölpopa's Mountain Dharma more closely, particularly the section that distinguishes between absolute and relative Cittamātra.
Gorampa was the person who originated this distinction. So, at the time, ground breaking. And no, his critiques do not come from Rendawa. The extant translation out there has a translation error. The text, translated by Geshe Jamspel, incorrectly identifies Rendawa's critique of gzhan stong as the one Gorampa favors, when in fact it is the more gentle criticism leveled by Rongton he favors. I received this teaching directly, so I am quite certain this the translation you have is mistaken here. Rongton's more gentle criticism labels gzhan stong an intermediate view between false aspectarian yogacāra and proper madhyamaka. Gorampa in fact devotes very little time to gzhan stong in Moonrays, mostly because in the end gzhan stong pas basically agree with the approach to meditative equipoise free of proliferation found in classic Madhyamaka, despite whatever other erroneous claims they make.

Pelden Dorje also says the differences between Jonang and Sakya aren't about the ultimate like Gorampa says, but about the conventional.
Then he did not read Moonrays very carefully. What Gorampa states very clearly in his summation of critiques of Jonang is this, quoting Jetsun:

“If it is said ‘…there is existence in the ultimate,’ now then, because of falling into the extreme of existence, it will not be path of madhyamaka. But if it is said ‘…you assert non-existence in the ultimate, also you fall into the the extreme of non-existence,’ because we never established existence in the ultimate, we do not assert nonexistence."

Now then, if it is asked ‘…what do you assert?’ However things exist in the relative, we assert them as such, and hence we are freed from the extreme of annihilationist view in the relative. Since there is nothing whatever to assert as ultimate, since we are free from all extremes we are called ‘Mādhyamikas.’”

In other words, the basic point here is that if there were something truly established as ultimate, it should be seen in the equipoise of an ārya, but since nothing is perceived in the equipoise of an ārya according to any of the four extremes, being totally free of proliferation, there is nothing to assert as ultimate in post-equipoise. This is quite different than asserting the ultimate is "rang stong" or "gzhan stong." This brings us back to Longchenpa:

Since vidyā bodhicitta has never been established in the space-like essence, whatever appears such as samsara and nirvana, appearance and emptiness, birth and death, happiness and suffering, self and other has never been established.

This why Longchenpa can assert that the kāyas and wisdoms abide in the basis, without being a gzhan stong pa, because he agrees that even the appearances of nirvana have "never been established" and "have never existed from the moment they appear."

Gorampa even criticizes Chokden for holding the Jonang view in his Distinguishing the Views.
Gorampa does not mention Shakya Chogden in Moonrays at all. I translated the text.
the original intention of the Sakya founders as being closer to Jonang.
No. The locus classicus for Sakya view is a text called rin po che ljon shing by Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen, which is on the abhisamaya of the Hevajra Tantra.

He indeed proclaims that the view of the Hevajra Tantra, freedom from extremes, is higher than Madhyamaka. What is Jetsun's final view in this text? gNas lugs med pa, i.e. "There is no reality." Why? Because nothing can be found by way of an analysis of any of the four extremes in the relative or the ultimate. Since no relative phenomena can be found be means of such an analysis, there is nothing in the ultimate that can be found to exist in any of the four extremes nor in the middle. The Samputa says, "The yogi does not rely on emptiness, nor on nonemptiness, nor on the middle." The Sgra thal gyur states when explaining liberation from extremes (mtha' grol), "Since the extremes are not found, the middle is not found; since the middle is not found, the extremes are not found."


If you want to say that your infinite, uncompounded qualities exist in the ultimate, the very claim they exist in the ultimate makes you an eternalist because you are claiming something exists in the ultimate, and you are claiming the ultimate exists. The only way out of this problem is to accept that "all phenomena of samsara and nirvana have never existed from the moment they appear" like like illusions, dreams, moons in the water, optical illusions, fairy castles, and emanations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Read Snyder’s Road to Unfreedom. I am sure you think that hack, Chomsky, is great.

ject said:
I never cared for Chomsky. I'll take a look at Snyder, if I finish up way more important books you recommended me in another thread.

EDIT: I am sure he is entertaining but I am going to skip that one.

Malcolm wrote:
Snyder is one of few serious historians who speaks Ukrainian and really understands the issues. Alternately, you can read Paul D’Anieri’s Ukraine and Russia: From Civilized Divorce to Uncivil War:

This possibility points to the difficulty in considering how the broader conflict might have been managed better. Nearly all the policies that would have made a dramatic difference would have required someone to give up something they deeply valued. Russia could have accepted the loss of Ukraine. Ukraine could have forgone its dreams of genuine independence. NATO could have rejected the pleas of potential new members. It is not hard to imagine why leaders sought to avoid these difficult sacrifices, and instead assumed that others would adjust. This discussion of how the war might have been averted also points to why the question of blame cannot be resolved by looking at the facts of what happened. Someone would have to surrender something important to decrease the chances of war. Who should have made the necessary concessions ‒ and is to blame for not making them ‒ is a matter of opinion. In many respects, the problem of blame boils down to what one thinks of Russia’s claim on Ukraine. To the extent the claim is not legitimate, Russia is to blame for pursuing it. To the extent that claim is legitimate, one can blame Ukraine for not acquiescing to it and the West for backing Ukraine. Similarly, whether the West should have recognized Russia’s claim to great power privileges or deferred to Russia’s local military superiority, or whether Russia should have acceded to the West’s claims about democratic norms, is a matter of values. These are normative questions whose answers depend on further assumptions about the rights of great powers, the inviolability of sovereignty and international law, the boundaries of realpolitik, and so on. How one answers those questions will determine whose claim one believes has greater weight, who should therefore have backed off, and who, in the final analysis, is guilty of not backing off and therefore to blame for the conflict. Even in February 2014, violence could have been avoided as long as each side refrained from shifting to violence. Whether that move to violence should be blamed on protesters in Kyiv, on Yanukovych, or on Russia also falls back on normative assumptions. Thus, rather than history or analysis resolving who is to blame, how one assigns blame tends to shape how one writes or reads the analysis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 7:47 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Norwegian said:
Why are you talking about Biden? Why not talk about Putin? Putin is the one who started this. Putin is the one who can end this, by pulling out all of his forces from Ukraine, and that includes occupied territories like Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, and others.

Peace talks on grounds of "Let's give Putin what he wants" are as interesting as used toilet paper.

ject said:
To understand what is happening there, you need to go year 2014 and maybe even further back.
You should also familiarize yourself with Minsk agreements 1 and 2. Figure out what role Obama, Merkel and few other names had in all this and so on. Also, study how one of the most corrupt countries in EU neighbourhood, turned into MIC darling.
It's ugly and messy and most of it is complete opposite to what it seems at first.

Russia, NATO/US are all involved. There is no good guys in this war. We can only say that the ones suffering the most are Ukrainians.

And of course, study the map so you can confirm that US has no shared border with any of the countries it attacks or drags into it's endless wars - Ukraine included.

Malcolm wrote:
Read Snyder’s Road to Unfreedom. I am sure you think that hack, Chomsky, is great.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 7:42 PM
Title: Re: Breathing instructions during Song of Vajra according to ChNN
Content:
Ati108 said:
Are there any indications as to when exactly we should inhale and exhale during this practice? I have not found answers in DC materials. Thank you for any information on this.

Malcolm wrote:
The oral instruction is to breath where Rinpoche breaks the line. Coordinating your breath when singing SOV is very important in this practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 7:33 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


kirtu said:
Americans really do not believe in democracy, but are now more openly enamored of political authoritarianism

Malcolm wrote:
As inaccurate as it is sweeping.

What is accurate to say is that as wealth inequality grows, we are moving into a form of liberal meritocratic capitalism, run by oligarchs.

China’s economic success undermines the West’s claim that there is a necessary link between capitalism and liberal democracy. Indeed, this claim is being undermined in the West itself by populist and plutocratic challenges to liberal democracy.

—- Milanovic, Capitalism Alone.

But that does mean a majority of us support authoritarianism. Wealth inequality is the principle threat to democracy.

The two types of capitalism, liberal meritocratic and political, now seem to be competing with each other. They are led, respectively, by the United States and China. But even independently of China’s willingness to make available and to “export” an alternative political and, to some extent, economic version of capitalism, political capitalism itself has certain features that make it attractive to the political elites in the rest of the world and not only in Asia: the system provides greater autonomy to political elites. It is also attractive to many ordinary people because of the high growth rates that it seems to promise. On the other hand, liberal capitalism has many well-known advantages, the most important being that democracy and the rule of law are values in themselves and both, arguably, can be credited with encouraging faster economic development through promoting innovation and allowing social mobility, and thus providing approximately equal chances of success for all. It is the reneging on some crucial aspects of this implicit value system, namely a movement toward the creation of a self-perpetuating upper class and polarization between the elites and the rest, that represents the most important threat to the longer-term viability of liberal capitalism. This threat is a danger both to the system’s own survival and to the general attractiveness of the model to the rest of the world.

—- Milanovic, Capitalism Alone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 7:16 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Ati108 said:
SOV was one of ChNN main practices, if I'm not mistaken.

Malcolm wrote:
Personal communication from him to me: “Song of the  Vajra is my main practice”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 7:01 PM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The minute you say something is not empty, you enter into limitations.

stong gzugs said:
The third turning is about precise distinctions. Here's a more precise rephrasing of your statement: the minute you fail to distinguish between types of emptiness, you enter into limitations. The Tathāgatagarbha is (other)empty of all afflictions (parabhāvaśūnyatā) but not its inherent buddha qualities, whereas afflictions are (self)empty of any inherent essence (svabhāvaśūnyatā).

Ratnagotravibhāga 155 said:
The Essence [of the Buddha] is [by nature] devoid
Of the accidental [pollutions] which differ from it;
But it is by no means devoid of the highest properties
Which are, essentially, indivisible from it.

Malcolm wrote:
I note you did respond to Gorampa.

stong gzugs said:
I assume you already know by now how Dölpopa avoids the extremes and that I follow his approach to Mādhyamaka. (Of the Sakyapas, Sakya Chokden had a better understanding than Gorampa in my view. He was yet another voice that the Gelukpas silenced to strengthen their rangtong approach).

Malcolm wrote:
We’ve already established that all your blather about qualities and so on is just so much verbal hot air to prop up the weak faith of those intimidated by emptiness.

Dolbupa and Geluk view are mirror images, one eternalist, the other annihilationist. This is why the Late Khenpo Appey used to joke that Geluk view was upside down gzhan stong.

MMK:

“All views of emptiness are a source of error.”

Dolbupa makes exactly the errors Gorampa ascribes to him. No one has ever addressed Gorampa’s objections in Moonrays, either from the Geluk side part (apart from Sonam Thakchoe)  or the Jonang side .

Shakya Chogdan is an interesting character, whiose perspective changed a lot during his lifetime. He wept when Gorampa passed away, and it is said, his final view was that of Rongton and Gorampa. The debates between Gorampa and Shakya Chogden largely concerned Domsum.

Modern gzhan stong in Kagyu largely depends on Shakya Chogden, not Jonang.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 10:52 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:


stong gzugs said:
The Ratnagotravibhāga's articulation is superior.

Malcolm wrote:
No, just more prolix.

Another apropo verse:

Those for whom emptiness is valid, everything is valid….

The minute you say something is not empty, you enter into limitations.

I note you did respond to Gorampa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 9:57 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


not_z said:
That's what I am doing. I am just wondering if there is a theoretical underpinning for that. Are there signs to look for when deciding to go to the next semzin? And how does the SOV fits into that sequence?

Malcolm wrote:
I presume you are using the 21 semzins text by Longchenpa. If so the theory is presented right there, in the text, and the signs. Simple put they are different methods for exposing the radiance of rig pa. SOV is in a different class.

Terma said:
Would SOV be characterized as a semdzin then?

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN classifies it as such, but it is also beyond that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 9:24 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
. All gzhanstong has to offer is the humbling but ennobling recognition that all beings intrinsically have the same nature as the Buddha and are therefore fundamentally equal (see KTGR's PSMN, p.

Malcolm wrote:
Not a novel idea, as the MMK famously states:

Whatever is the nature of the tathagata, that is the nature of the world.
As the tathagata has no nature, also the world has no nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 9:18 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:


stong gzugs said:
And is all your language about the basis as kadak also a conceptual reification, and hence wrong? If you say yes, I'm fine with that. If you say no, you've just made my point for me.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, as it is said in Buddhahood in This Life:

The connate ignorance (arising from the preceding) is a term of duality, meaning as soon as the conceit “this is originally pure” occurs, [27b] it is inseparable from that ignorance. Thus, ignorance depends on knowledge and delusion depends on nondelusion. As such, knowledge itself becomes ignorance and nondelusion becomes delusion. From that delusion grasping on to subject and object arises.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


not_z said:
That's what I am doing. I am just wondering if there is a theoretical underpinning for that. Are there signs to look for when deciding to go to the next semzin? And how does the SOV fits into that sequence?

Malcolm wrote:
I presume you are using the 21 semzins text by Longchenpa. If so the theory is presented right there, in the text, and the signs. Simple put they are different methods for exposing the radiance of rig pa. SOV is in a different class.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Direct introduction is not a magic wand that transforms mind-based practices into practices that allow one to expose rig pa.

not_z said:
Why are some mind-based practices able to expose rig pa while others do not? What make semzins, in particular, special?

Malcolm wrote:
Practice them and find out. They are progressive, meant to practiced in an orderly sequence, not haphazardly. The key point is that these exercises expose that radiance directly, just as rushan does.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Vasana said:
My point was that if one isn't abiding in the actual meditation or equipoise of trekchod, then that could be deemed post-meditation which may or may not resemble what we're calling ordinary shamatha. If a practioner is not in equipoise, what are they in?

Malcolm wrote:
Distraction.

Vasana said:
I wasn't refering to common shamatha in isolation, as emphasised with the comment "if one has had DI.

Malcolm wrote:
Direct introduction is not a magic wand that transforms mind-based practices into practices that allow one to expose rig pa.

Vasana said:
I would extend that to not offering public criticism on other teachers when they don't score 100% in the 'ideal Dzogchen teacher' criteria.


Malcolm wrote:
In Wallace's case, he is making indefensible claims that are directly at odds with the Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: Christians Struggling to “understand” Buddhism
Content:


ject said:
And for some reason, all religions from that part of the world happened to be about the same.

Malcolm wrote:
Given that the original was founded on ethnic cleansing at the behest of a sky god...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Head of the GA GOP

DNS said:
"Use your brain, use your head, okay?"

This is parody, correct?

Malcolm wrote:
Sadly, no.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Head of the GA GOP


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Vasana said:
Does anyone argue that a calm and settled mind is an obstacle to trekchod

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on how that mind is settled and calm, since meditation, as defined by Longchenpa (and following him, Chogyal Namkahi Norbu), is ultimately based on conceptual one-pointedness, and trekcho is not.

Vasana said:
If one has had DI, then an imperfect conceptual calm-abiding meditation can still eventually make way for brief moments of trekchod, no?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Longchenpa explicitly negates the idea that common śamatha can expose rig pa nakedly.

Vasana said:
If everyone was super high capacity like Longchnepa, Norbu Rinpoche and other teachers wouldn't have bothered with teaching Semde, shiné etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Practice according to your own capacity, but don't limit others by insisiting they have to practice according some gradual dzogchen path of your imagination. The four samadhis of sems sde are also not actually gradual.

In Dzogchen trekcho we do not make a distinction according high and low in capacity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Because in the former, you're likely to never even glimpse the sky; in the latter at least you rest in the sky. Might someone then reify it? If you're meditating with nisprapañca as we emphasize

Malcolm wrote:
FFS, everyone imagines they are meditating free of proliferation. I already busted you on this one earlier.

stong gzugs said:
Then the question is whether positive language use during post-meditation will necessarily equate to reification, which some polemics claim.

Malcolm wrote:
It is conceptual reification, just as much as asserting the ultimate is solely the absence of inherent existence. This why in Moonrays, Gorampa identifies these two extremes:

Although some say “even though the ultimate reality which is the object of realization
is permanent, stable, eternal and truly established;
but it does not appear to the mind that realizes reality.”
This claim is not nectar to the ear.

And:

Others...maintaining ultimate reality is the annihilationist emptiness,
they condemn freedom from the proliferation of the four extremes,
the essence of the teaching which comes from the excellent treatises of Nāgārjuna
as the Chinese Hashang view.

stong gzugs said:
Also, let's not forget that even those who tell others not to use language still use their own positive language describing luminosity etc., they just describe luminosity as self-empty in the same way as anything conventional, which is more incorrect than just describing it more accurately as other-empty.

Malcolm wrote:
They are both conceptual reificatons, so they are both wrong. So what is the correct Madhyamaka approach? Gorampa continues:

The intelligent common person who investigates reality
also does not reject the proliferation of the four extremes all at once,
but after rejecting the four alternately
by meditating in the proper way, when path of seeing arises
as both the reality which is devoid of the four extremes of proliferation
and the realizing mind are non-dual, 
the mind itself dissolves into the state free from proliferation, 
described conventionally as the view which sees the dharmadhātu. 
There is no difference in the perceived object of realizing the dharmadhātu
in this and the gnosis of a perfect Buddha.
Therefore, it is said “The one discovering the purest gnosis
develops the oceanic mind of the perfect Buddhas.”

As it is explained, when one is freed from the clouds of adventitious stains
by the power of the stream-like meditation of the unification of
the trio of the non-dual mind,
the creation of bodhicitta as stable as Mt. Meru
and the compassion which reaches the limits of space, [47/a]
it is conventionally described as the dawn of the sun of buddhahood.
At that time all consciousnesses and objects of consciousnesses
are nothing other than the nature of that gnosis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Vasana said:
Does anyone argue that a calm and settled mind is an obstacle to trekchod

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on how that mind is settled and calm, since meditation, as defined by Longchenpa (and following him, Chogyal Namkahi Norbu), is ultimately based on conceptual one-pointedness, and trekcho is not.

ChNN makes the point that what is necessary is only knowledge of the example wisdom (Upadeśa on the Primordially Pure Tregchöd commentary, pg.90-91) which is based solely on the guru's instructions and the disciple's faith. This is superior to the two stages or analysis, as ChNN states. very clearly.  The Upadeśa on Primordially Pure Tregchöd commentary could not be clearer about this, and duplicates statements made by Longchen in chapter 10 verbatim, though without attribution.


Claiming that one must achieve some measure of śamatha before being be able to practice Dzogchen methods of exposing rig pa nakedly is entirely wrong and limiting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
The following is an older post of yours; but if he is saying that Shamatha is a necessary prerequisite for Dzogchen, and Shamatha can be attained in a single afternoon, then is he going in the wrong direction?

Malcolm wrote:
He is not saying śamatha can be attained in a single afternoon, is he?

And the distinction is this: Rongzom makes the point that if someone is not capable understanding the meaning of the Great Perfection and must resort to a path involving effort, then following the Mañjuśrīmitra's instruction, there are two indirect ways of entering into the knowledge of Dzogchen  combined with Dzogchen view: (1)  through developing a stable contemplation though standard parāmitāyāna śamatha and vipaśyanā practice, where he identifies six faults and ten obscurations of concentration and three faults related to vipaśyanā, which he explains in detail.

(2) One can practice his unique system of six limb yoga of Secret Mantra, again, combined with Dzogchen view. For example, following one's vows is considered to be pratyāhara-- one sees all the consciousnesses of the sense as fauts, but one does not abandon them. This is considered to render one a container for concentration. Concentration itself is focusing on the three secrets, the deity, mantra, and wisdom. In this context then, the five mental factor associated with concentration manifest. Once the factors of concentration arise, then one practices prāṇāyama, specifically breath retention, which produces different signs during the day and during the night, etc. It is quite detailed and interesting. He concludes, "In brief, also all these different concentrations will be skillful conduct if done in connection with the meaning of Dzogchen, but will be unskillful conduct if not connected."

No one can decide for you if you are someone who needs to practice with effort or without, but since the main point is to nakedly expose rig pa from the beginning, then, we try to achieve this from the beginning. If we succeed in this, then we do not need to follow the path of effort described above. All of these concentrations described by Rongom are considered "meditation" by Longchenpa, and mind-based, and distinct from the unique natural concentration that characterizes nakedly exposing vidyā.

Claiming however that one can only practice trekcho after realizing emptiness however, is totally in the wrong direction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 7:10 PM
Title: Re: Buddha's three sons (?)
Content:
Zhen Li said:
So, if there were both a Licchavi and Śākyan Sunakṣatra,

Malcolm wrote:
I think there was only one, and there are competing histories about the clan Sunakṣatra came from. Tibetan scholars universally state he was the Buddha’s first cousin. The only explicit mention of him by the name Sunakṣatra in the Tibetan canon I’ve been able to find is in the Nirvana Sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 6:58 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


dharmafootsteps said:
2) He mentions “realizing emptiness” a few times, and mentions doing so before beginning trekcho. I don’t know how he defines realizing emptiness, but as I understand it this would be a much bigger deal than the insistence on achieving śamatha. It would make Dzogchen the practice of āryas only.

Malcolm wrote:
And of course this is why his teaching of Dzogchen is totally in the wrong direction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 6:55 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
If this is going to continue, can we define “achieve shamatha” precisely?

Malcolm wrote:
It means a state of equipoise characterized by four or five  distinct mental,factors.

krodha said:
Does this mean the first dhyāna is “achieving śamatha?”

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
If this is going to continue, can we define “achieve shamatha” precisely?

Malcolm wrote:
It means a state of equipoise characterized by four or five  distinct mental,factors.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 8:01 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I have a bridge in Brooklyn.

stong gzugs said:
Agree to disagree on our hermeneutics here! Plus your bridges lack inherent existence, so I don't think they could handle the weight of my vehicle

Malcolm wrote:
Since you drive a light weight vehicle, the bridge will be fine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not the error it is addressing at all. The error it addresses is not understanding the intentional meaning of words used by the Buddha. It is a sutra about use of language, not ontology.

stong gzugs said:
When it describes people who see a hailstone melt and think that a gem will melt is exactly ontological.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is a metaphor for mistake perception, which again, is not an ontological issue.

For example, the sūtra discusses not understanding the indirect meaning of tathāgatagarbha. If someone takes the idea of infinite, unfabricated, major and minor marks literally existing in sentient beings as ornaments...I have a bridge in Brooklyn.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
natusake said:
If it is empty of other-existence, then it is naturally empty of itself as well

stong gzugs said:
This is the exact error the Aṅgulimālīya Sūtra quote above is addressing.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not the error it is addressing at all. The error it addresses is not understanding the intentional meaning of words used by the Buddha. It is a sutra about use of language, not ontology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Not quite.

Malcolm wrote:
Quite:

stong gzugs said:
Again, not quite! The texts literally say that liberation occurs upon realization of the emptiness of signlessness,

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but that is not the final emptiness the text refers to.

In any case, this sutra is not talking about definitive nature of emptiness.
Of course it is. It's a hugely important third-turning sūtra, and is definitive at least for the Jonang, and perhaps other gzhanstongpas. Brunnhölzl explains more below, which shows why svabhāvaśūnyatā-only practitioners miss something that those who also practice parabhāvaśūnyatā realize:

I dont agree with Brunnhölzl's analysis. All the text really doing is striking a balance against those who assert the Buddha only asserted the absence of self as an ontological commitment. But not even Nāgārjuna makes that claim, in fact he asserts the opposite, i.e., that the Buddha taught both self and not-self, depending on context. That is why the Buddha makes reference to the Middle Way in one passage, at the end of along a reply to Mañjuśrī, where he states that some do not understand the indirect (ldem po. saṃdhāya) meaning of liberation, self, and transcendence (lokottara).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
No, you abide in the presence of the objects of the six āyatanas and the body, all they are empty of is affliction, desire for rebirth, and [afflictive] ignorance.

stong gzugs said:
Not quite.

Malcolm wrote:
Quite:

They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance.There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’

stong gzugs said:
Ānanda, you should train yourself like this: ‘I shall also truly dwell in this emptiness, without distortion, namely in the eradication of the influxes, the influx-free and unconditioned liberation of the mind.’ Ānanda, you should train yourself like this.


Malcolm wrote:
Correct, what is the mind unconditioned by? It is free from the condition of the afflictions and their effluents. That's all liberation is. Omniscience on the other hand, well, that requires a more profound realization of emptiness.

stong gzugs said:
The Nirgranthas also meditate on everything’s being empty

Malcolm wrote:
This is a facially false statement. In any case, this sutra is not talking about definitive nature of emptiness. Angulimāla is talking only about "freedom from the condition of the afflictions and their effluents." His grasp of Jain siddhānta leaves much to be desired.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:


stong gzugs said:
That's why I specified about how emptiness is fully realized (i.e., at the end of the practice, not how it starts out). You're correct in that the practice does start out with contemplating the emptiness of objects like the village in the forest (where one has left the village and gone to the forest for renunciation), the earth in the forest, etc.* But when you get to the later stages, especially the seventh stage of signlessness, then emptiness is literally the absence of any characteristics that one could hold onto as an object, and by the final stage, not even the experience of emptiness itself is objectified: one just dwells in emptiness without any grasping. And, whereas some of these later stages were taught by pre-Buddhist teachers, it's that final non-grasping of emptiness as an object that leads to final liberation. So you finish by dwelling in emptiness that is independent of any object.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you abide in the presence of the objects of the six āyatanas and the body, all they are empty of is affliction, desire for rebirth, and [afflictive] ignorance.

Asanga of course uses this example of emptiness in the Bodhisattvabhumi (Engle, pp. 80-82) to castigate Madhyamakas, and thereby proving that he is a realist.

But this is not the profound Mahāyāna emptiness free of extremes.


stong gzugs said:
So this is a core practice of the Buddha himself that he says clearly leads to final liberation through emptiness that doesn't fit within the Mādhyamaka-type understanding of emptiness popularized in Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
Amazing, so you are declaring a "first turning sūtra" to be definitive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It just gets worse and worse for Trump:

https://www.jefftiedrich.com/p/donald-trumps-legal-hell-just-keeps?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Western Philosophy and emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
“At one time the Blessed One was dwelling among the Sakyans, in a town of the Sakyans named Nagaraka. At that time I heard the Blessed One speak like this: ‘Ānanda, I often dwell in emptiness.’ Did I understand well, receive well, and remember well that saying by the Blessed One?”

Then the Blessed One replied: “Ānanda, you truly understood well, received well, and remembered well that saying by me. Why is that? From then until now, I often dwell in emptiness ... Ānanda, whatever is not present, I therefore see as empty; and whatever else is present, I see as truly present. Ānanda, this is called truly dwelling in emptiness, without distortion.

Malcolm wrote:
That's not the whole story here, that emptiness is also implicitly dependent on an object, from the same sutta, in this case wilderness on up to the six āyatanas absent of affliction, desire for birth, and ignorance:

Consider this stilt longhouse of Migāra’s mother. It’s empty of elephants, cows, horses, and mares; of gold and money; and of gatherings of men and women. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely, the oneness dependent on the mendicant Saṅgha. In the same way, a mendicant—ignoring the perception of the village and the perception of people—focuses on the oneness dependent on the perception of wilderness. Their mind becomes eager, confident, settled, and decided in that perception of wilderness. They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the perception of village or the perception of people. There is only this modicum of stress, namely the oneness dependent on the perception of wilderness.’ They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the village. It is empty of the perception of people. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely the oneness dependent on the perception of wilderness.’ And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present. That’s how emptiness is born in them—genuine, undistorted, and pure...They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance.There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’

https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin

This is not an ontological statement, it is a mere observation that even when the all afflictions cease, there is still a body in samsara, until the aggregates break up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 at 10:08 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:




Sādhaka said:
Admiration for Nazism – often reframed with a genocidal hatred for Muslims – is rampant in the Hindu nationalist camp, which has never been as mainstream as it is now

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-12-14/ty-article/hitlers-hindus-indias-nazi-loving-nationalists-on-the-rise/0000017f-f880-d460-afff-fbe61fe20000

Sādhaka said:
Many members of the so-called “alt-right” – a loosely knit coalition of populists, white supremacists, white nationalists and neo-Nazis – turned to India to find historic and current justifications for their racist, xenophobic and divisive views. Using a specific, “white nationalist” brand of Orientalism, they projected their fantasies about a racially pure society onto the Indian culture and in response received a warm welcome from Hindu fundamentalists in India.


Malcolm wrote:
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/12/13/why-white-supremacists-and-hindu-nationalists-are-so-alike


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:




Sādhaka said:
Admiration for Nazism – often reframed with a genocidal hatred for Muslims – is rampant in the Hindu nationalist camp, which has never been as mainstream as it is now

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-12-14/ty-article/hitlers-hindus-indias-nazi-loving-nationalists-on-the-rise/0000017f-f880-d460-afff-fbe61fe20000


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Current science on COVID 19
Content:


natusake said:
The course that COVID took is largely similar to the Spanish Flu, though it had its own unique aspects as well of course.

Malcolm wrote:
More like the Russian Flu:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8813723/

natusake said:
Of course, the term itself is pretty much propaganda. Everyone wanted to blame 'the other', whoever is the convenient target to further political goals. In that respect, COVID is not dissimilar either.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the name comes from the first places it was recorded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: Current science on COVID 19
Content:


natusake said:
The course that COVID took is largely similar to the Spanish Flu, though it had its own unique aspects as well of course.

Malcolm wrote:
More like the Russian Flu:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8813723/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Current science on COVID 19
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Here is what the CDC has to say about it;


From what we know, COVID-19 spreads more easily than flu. Efforts to maximize the proportion of people in the United States who are up to date with their COVID-19 vaccines remain critical to reducing the risk of severe COVID-19 illness and death. More information is available about COVID-19 vaccines and how well they work.

Compared with flu, COVID-19 can cause more severe illness in some people. Compared to people with flu, people infected with COVID-19 may take longer to show symptoms and may be contagious for longer periods of time.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/flu-vs-covid19.htm#:~:text=Compared%20with%20flu%2C%20COVID%2D19,for%20longer%20periods%20of%20time.


Influenza is not airborn. Covid19 is (those little spikes keep it aloft).



krodha said:
They’re parroting a conspiracy theory that circulates the Internet that covid 19 is just the flu rebranded.

heart said:
I agree, a lot of people I know was tested positive for covid. It takes quite a long time to recover from covid because it goes for your lungs. I am still not fully ok. Not like a flue at all.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Minus long COVID or co occurring conditions, it is actually becoming comparable to seasonal flu. That’s not a conspiracy, just how the virus has changed and how much vaccinations have done.

Of course, that does not make it harmless now, only to say that for a large chunk of people catching COVID has become somewhat comparable to catching a seasonal flu.

Denying that it exists, denying its infectiousness, denying that it is more harmful to a certain percentage of people or certain populations is another story of course, and -is-simply conspiracy theory.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2803749

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/31/health/covid-omicron-lung-cells.html

Also, afaik Omicron and subsequent variants by and large effect the lungs less, barring specific vulnerabilities, long COVID, etc.

Don’t remember reading a comparison of chronic lung problems from influenza vs COVID with the current variants, but I’m guessing results would be more equivalent than people think, and I’d love to see such a study if anyone knows of one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:



tingdzin said:
Very interesting. Can you give us a source to refer to? What was the name of the group, etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
I can but I am in transit land at the moment…

tingdzin said:
Bump


Malcolm wrote:
śrīsarvaguhyavidhigarbhālaṃkāra-nāma,་(D 2490) rgyud, zi 232b2-243b3, specifically on page 238b, line 5  to 239a, line 3.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: A Reflection on the Three Natures
Content:
ThreeVows said:
Samdhinirmocana Sutra:
The pattern of clinging to what is entirely imagined refers to the establishing of names and symbols for all things and the distinguishing of their essences, whereby they come to be expressed in language. The pattern of other dependency refers to the pattern whereby all things arise co-dependently: for if this exists, then that exists, and if this arises, then that arises. This refers to the twelvefold conditions [aka the 12 nidanas], starting with 'conditioned by ignorance are karmic formations' and ending with 'conditioned by origination is this grand mass of suffering'...

the imagined pattern can be understood as caused by the interplay between images and words. The other-dependent pattern can be understood as caused by the grasping of those imagined images upon that other-dependent pattern.


Malcolm wrote:
These passages do not contradict the passage by Asanga

ThreeVows said:
Lankavatara Sutra:
...as the objects and forms of dependent reality appear, attachment results in two kinds of imagined reality. These are what the tathagatas... describe as 'attachment to appearance' and 'attachment to name'. Attachment to appearance involves attachment to external and internal entities, while attachment to name involves attachment to the individual and shared characteristics of those external and internal entities. These are the two kinds of imagined reality. What serves as the ground and objective support from which they arise is the dependent reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in this case the all-basis consciousness.

ThreeVows said:
Longchenpa:
The impure dependent nature refers to all the illusory appearances that manifest via the different sense doors: the impure apsects of the universe, such as earth, rocks, mountains, cliffs, and the rest, together with the universe's contents, namely, beings. All these things are but the full development of the habitual tendencies [of the mind].

The pure dependent nature, on the other hand, refers to the pure fields and all that appears within the sphere of the pure vision of the buddhas: the buddhafields; the seven precious things; luminous, unfathomable palaces; and so on...

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa rejects the mind-only position as incoherent, so not sure why you bother to post this.

ThreeVows said:
From Andy Karr:
One way to summarize [the three natures] would be to say that what is imagined by names, thoughts, and so on is the imaginary nature. What is not imagined by names and thoughts but appears due to causes and conditions is the dependent nature. The dependent nature’s emptiness of the imaginary nature is the perfectly existent nature. This is a basic Chittamatra presentation.
.

Malcolm wrote:
Not quite correct. You should read Tsongkhapa's independent treatment of Cittamatra. It's really quite good.

Guṇākara, it is like this: you should consider the imaginary defining
characteristic to be just like the falsity of the visual aberrations [perceived]
by someone suffering from the timira visual disorder.
127
“Guṇākara, it is like this: you should consider the other-dependent
defining characteristic to be just like the phenomenal appearances
manifesting to this very person suffering from the timira disease, such as
[actually nonexistent] hairs, flies, sesame seeds, [or patches of] blue, yellow,
red, or white [in their visual field].

From the Roberts translation over at 84000.




[Mod note Dec 2023: This thread is seven months old now and inactive so far. Especially because Malcolm left DW right now it's inconvenient, if people still quote him and try to discuss with him. 
Therefore this thread is being locked so early.]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2023 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Am I misunderstanding Soto Zen’s zazen?
Content:


dpcalder said:
But I am getting the impression that it is a very specific kind of meditation and that “open monitoring meditation” doesn’t quite adequately summarize it.

Malcolm wrote:
You’ve confused modern, secular mindfulness practice with Buddhist meditation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2023 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Christians Struggling to “understand” Buddhism
Content:
Giovanni said:
Let’s be clear. Everyone who is not enlightened holds wrong views. Everyone.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not correct. There is such as thing as mundane correct view. A correct view in this case is one that is functional. For example, believing in normative causes and effects. We have to distinguish wrong views about entities from wrong views about essences. Christians have wrong views about both essences and entities, since they believe salvation comes from believing in the divinity of a man executed by Romans somewhere between 30-33 CE.

Buddhists only hold wrong views about essences, i.e. that knowledge obscuration of the innate habit of I-making.

Giovanni said:
Samsara could be defined as wrong views.

Malcolm wrote:
Only through the wrong view of essences.

Giovanni said:
We know that ChNN did not hesitate to initiate Christian monks or nuns because he knew that their belief system would not survive the arising of the Dzogchen View. But the sutric view does not survive that either.

Malcolm wrote:
Which Sutra view did you have in mind, the one where in PP Sūtra it is stated that all phenomena are nonarising, pure from the beginning, and the state of dharmatā? The dependent origination of phenomena? Emptiness? In what way does Dzogchen refute these views? We do not reject conventional truth in Dzogchen. Longchenpa was utterly clear on this point.

ChNN understood what is stated in the Dzogchen tantras: we do not make a distinction between sharp and dull. If someone is sincerely interested in the teachings, they do not have to convert to Buddhism, but it is not because Buddhism contains any wrong views. It does not. There is no contradiction between Dzogchen and the four truths of nobles. There are serious contradictions however with Samkhya, etc.

Giovanni said:
It’s all about intention and aspiration not the muddled beliefs that we hold before the View becomes established. Which is a good thing for all our sakes!
Dzogchen is not gradualist.

Malcolm wrote:
This thread is not really about Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2023 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Buddha's three sons (?)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to the Tibetan Vinaya, King Śuddhodana had four siblings, one whom was Śuklodana, and it is held that the latter had two sons, one called rGyal (Puṣya) and the other was a prince of the Śākyas called bZang ldan,

Tibetan sources such as Yang chen Gawey Lodo (dbyangs can dga' ba'i blo gros, 1740-1828) states in his Commentary on the Treatise of the Wise and Foolish that Sunakṣatra was the son of this man  Śuklodana. His proper name was Puṣya (rgyal) or Sunakṣatra because he was born on the conjunction of Pusỵa and Thursday, which considered very auspicous. So in this case, it is held Sunakṣatra was a Śakyan, and the first cousin of the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2023 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: A Reflection on the Three Natures
Content:
ThreeVows said:
The basic input, perhaps, might be considered to relate to the dependent nature. The dependent nature in general relates to the 12 nidanas

Malcolm wrote:
The dependent characteristic is the cognizances that consist of the false imaginations whose seeds lie in the ālaya consciousness.

Asanga, A Compendium of Mahāyāna, Brunnhözl, pg. 179.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2023 at 11:46 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Kai lord said:
To those who wish to remain in rigpa 24/7, that instant of entering into deep sleep (before the dreams arise) presents the greatest obstacle.

Malcolm wrote:
If one does not have the intimate instructions, sure.

Bapho said:
You could please tell me what a relationship there is between deep sleepy and rigpa. ?


Malcolm wrote:
You need to learn these things from your teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2023 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice
Content:


Dharmasagara said:
But, to all I have heard so far, anyway Thröma thögäl is completely out of reach without going through the whole cycle first (Ngöndro, deity, Chöd power places).

Malcolm wrote:
That is not necessarily the case, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2023 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: How much is it safe to meditate for in one day?
Content:
dpcalder said:
I was thinking of meditating nine hours or more in a day soon, breaking them up into chunks of 20 minutes to an hour with short breaks. Is this okay? Up to how long do Chan / Zen Buddhists meditate in a day?

Malcolm wrote:
Do you have a teacher?

dpcalder said:
Not yet

Malcolm wrote:
I would recommend that you find a teacher before embarking on a program of intense meditation practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2023 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
And it was not just any envoy. It was China's former ambassador to Moscow, Li Hui. Clearly, Li would have significant contacts in the Kremlin which he can bring to any peace talks with Ukraine's leadership.

Malcolm wrote:
The Ukrainians are quite clear: there will be no negotiations that do include Russia pulling out, back to pre-2014 borders, including the abandonment of Crimea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2023 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: How much is it safe to meditate for in one day?
Content:
dpcalder said:
I was thinking of meditating nine hours or more in a day soon, breaking them up into chunks of 20 minutes to an hour with short breaks. Is this okay? Up to how long do Chan / Zen Buddhists meditate in a day?

Malcolm wrote:
Do you have a teacher?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2023 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice
Content:


Dharmasagara said:
There seem in fact different approaches to whether or not on would require the Thröma (deity) empowerment for the Chöd practice that is called the Thröma Chöd.

Malcolm wrote:
Sangye Khandro  teaches the Troma Chod widely to people who do not have the empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2023 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Kai lord said:
To those who wish to remain in rigpa 24/7, that instant of entering into deep sleep (before the dreams arise) presents the greatest obstacle.

Malcolm wrote:
If one does not have the intimate instructions, sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2023 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: How you make the other happy
Content:
master of puppets said:
How you make the other happy?

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot. It is impossible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2023 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Definitely on the side of the mermaids...

justsit said:
Seriously?

Malcolm wrote:
How can anyone not be on the side of woke mermaids? It defies imagination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2023 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Follow Up.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-doral-reawaken-america-pastors-mermaids-1234735924/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2023 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Definitely on the side of the mermaids...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2023 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Except for when we go to sleep; where sense-withdrawal kind of has to be the default for that.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not sense withdrawal. This is a function of the radiance of rig pa subsiding naturally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2023 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Tata1 said:
Well im not an expert but as someone who in the past(alan didnt use to teach dzogchen so much back in the day) listened to many retreats of Alan the shamata he emphasizes involves the mind withdrawing from the senses and having no thoughts. And you can clearly see in the semde texts by namkhai norbu and in the semdzins by adzom drukpa that this is not what one looks for.

Malcolm wrote:
Sense withdrawal (so so bsdus pa, pratyāhara) is the completely opposite of Dzogchen practice in all forms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Ok guys, it’s fine, there’s no point in continuing to talk past each other, and some this stuff is probably better left alone on a public forum anyway.

Malcolm wrote:
The point I've been trying to make is that one cannot equate the semzins of Dzogchen Nyinthig with other kinds of semzins. Also, ChNN made this point many times. Referring to this as mere triumphalism is wrong.

If one wants to understand why common śamatha will not expose rig pa, and why exposing rig pa supercedes the need for developing śamatha in the classical way there are two things one must understand: First, from a Dzogchen point of view, śamatha and vipaśyanā are already present when rig pa is nakedly exposed, in other words, they are intrinsic to instant presence. Second, when one's calm state is based on mental objects, as soon as one abandons that object, posture, gaze, and so on, that calm state is also lost. On the other hand, once rig pa is nakedly exposed, one never loses that.

All I can do is recommend that you study the introductory section to chapter 10 of the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu Autocommentary where Longchenpa clearly and precisely distinguishes four differences between the calm state with and without support (including all completion stage practices of the lower tantras), which he refers to as meditation (bsgoms, bhāvana) and concentration (bsam gtan, dhyāna), which he characterizes as the special feature of Dzogchen (as does ChNN in his trekcho commmentary), in which bliss, clarity, and nonconceptuality are innate to the naturally occurring (rang babs), concentration which in DC lingo, characterizes instant presence/contemplation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 9:43 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
So I’m not claiming sutra level practice is the same as Dzogchen, I’m saying that claiming that Shamatha/Vipassana aren’t used in Dzogchen contexts seems 1) demonstrably incorrect because some systems make considerable use of them, and 2) it is not really the mind-based techniques that confer the View anyway, it’s the pointing out instruction, introduction, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
The real point is exposing rig pa. One cannot do that with ordinary, mind-based samatha practice. Period. I wish I could explain it to you better n more explicit terms.however,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
I mean what is the mechanism that makes common shamatha different from the various visualizations etc. involved in Semdzins, Rushens, etc. It seems to simply be context/view to me, and it’s all mind-based, until it’s not.

Malcolm wrote:
The difference is that sems 'dzin, etc., practices are designed to expose rig pa nakedly on the basis of the experience of direct introduction. Please tell me where in sutra there is such a distinction?

It seems to me you are just objecting to the fact that I am contradicting BAW's assertion that it is necessary develop perfect śamatha before practicing Dzogchen.

According to you it appears that direct introduction isn't necessary and Longchenpa is wrong when he says:

Therefore, since there is no basis for confidence in the śamatha and vipaśyanā of the repose of a calm mind, [the path of the essential core] is superior.

If you like, you can check the passage in Barron's translation, on pg. 224.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Kai lord said:
From what I read, this is basically a reuse or rehash of the similar arguments made against relying on two stages for Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it’s exactly the same point. Taking mind as the path vs. taking rig pa as the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I guess it comes down to how someone categorizes shamatha.

Vasana said:
Agreed. I'm sure it is sometimes used in relation to stillness/movement/noticing, and stability/steadiness as others have mentioned. It may not be Dzogchen Proper, but to insist Shamata has no relative or semantic relationship with Dzogchen seems out of touch with the needs of most practitioners in the world, and a bit condescending to all of the legit teachers who use it as a means to help prepare people. It might not be everyone's tea (shamatha without reference or trekchod), but it doesn't mean it should be thrown out for everyone or that the 'calm state' serves no function in relation to energy, clarity etc

Malcolm wrote:
Vasana, you are missing the point. I am talking about śamatha which is based in mind.

Vasana said:
“Similar words, different meanings: the ordinary and extraordinary shamatha and vipashyana are as different as sky and earth. Once more, don’t think that shamatha and vipashyana are unnecessary. In rigpa, the intrinsic steadiness is shamatha and the awake quality is vipashyana...

The Treasury of Dharmadhatu by Longchenpa says:
The original nature, totally free of all thoughts, is the ultimate shamatha. Natural cognizance, spontaneously present like the radiance of the sun, Is the vipashyana that is utterly uncontrived and naturally present.”
- Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the kind of śamatha I am referring to. In order to have this kind of "śamatha" one must have exposed rig pa nakedly.

ChNNR, in an intro to contemplation

Vasana said:
“Simulatenity:
Learning in this way to remain in relaxed presence, at a certain moment you find yourself in a state in which even though more or less thoughts continue to arise they do not disturb your presence and they vanish by themselves. That is, they self-liberate, because this state is not conditioned by the habitual continuity of judgement.

Particularly evident in this state is pure presence, called rigpa, non-dual awareness. 
Discernible within it, are three distinct fundamental elements ( ne-gyu- rig): 

1)  nepa, the calm state, like a still sheet of water; 
2)  gyuwa, the movement of thoughts, like a wave; 
3)  rigpa, the recognition of the presence of this wave. 

These three elements, however, are all present simultaneously in the same condition. Only by being in the state of Shine can you ascertain this concretely. “ -

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

Again, this precisely makes my point--one will never discover this state in ordinary śamatha, since there is no method to expose rig pa nakedly.

In both cases, this is post-empowerment, direct introduction, etc. I am referring the to common-sutra style śamatha BAW insists people must perfect before moving on to trekcho.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 10:29 AM
Title: Re: The Role of Shamatha/Vipaysana in Dzogchen
Content:
natusake said:
Does Longchenpa not agree with this or are their other reasons for his rejection of shamatha as a method of Dzogchen proper?

Malcolm wrote:
I suggest you just read chapter 10 of the Autocommentary of the Treasury of Dharmadhātu, and compare it with ChNN's longsal trekcho commentary. That will clear it up for you. We can use mind to go beyond mind, in Dzogchen we employ the rig pa as the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 10:26 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
So, in the time I’ve practiced it, this is my limited understanding, but keep in mind I’m just some schlub so that’s not definitive, I am a neophyte with Atri.

Malcolm wrote:
Having briefly looked over the text (albeit without instruction), prior to the stages of sems 'dzin with, without characteristics, and the introduction to reality, there is refuge through guru yoga. The practice of guru yoga alone means we are not in Kansas anymore.

But the instructions are nothing like the common śamatha and vipaśyanā we see in the Lam Rim tradition at all. For example, in the section on sems 'dzins with signs, the text explicitly enjoins one to request empowerment from a special guru, etc. There are many differences and instructions which one sees in other Dzogchen traditions, metaphors like remaining like a tortoise in a bowl, etc. So I dont think you can hold these Atri instructions to resemble anything like common śamatha and vipaśyanā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 8:01 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:


natusake said:
Then what is the role in A Khrid of practicing shamatha with support and shamatha without support?

Malcolm wrote:
You will have to ask someone who received that teaching.

But you can read Longchenpa who makes these distinctions very clear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 7:37 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
If so, what is the dividing line then, the presence of Dzogchen pointing out/introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, since Dzogchen is part of secret mantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 6:47 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
Suzuki did spend time with Kishizawa, but also studied with the Rinzai teacher Gempo Yamamoto at Ryutaku-ji (among others).  Whatever he may have learned from Kishizawa, it appears that he practiced dokusan with Yamamoto.

Malcolm wrote:
Which supports Matylda's contention.

Genjo Conan said:
Well, she contended both that dokusan was not practiced by Sotoshu priests, and that Suzuki didn't practice dokusan while in Japan.

Matylda said:
Yes of course it is fact, that dokusan is practiced among these people. But it is what Suzuki roshi did not have while training in Japan. So the thing was invented in the USA, not transmitted as unbroken practice. . . . Since it was not practiced in Japan, it could not be transmitted. thus it was invented.

Genjo Conan said:
As to the first part: maybe so.  I'm sure she has a better idea of what the Sotoshu does than I do.  As to the second part: I think Suzuki's biography contradicts her.

Malcolm wrote:
I think it is pretty simple.He borrowed it from Rinzai, occam’s razor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
The part I’m finding puzzling here is the seeming insistence that shamatha/Vipassana play no role at all, when clearly they are used in various Dzogchen systems.

Malcolm wrote:
They don’t, since common shamatha and vipashyana will never expose rig pa nakedly. If rig pa isn’t exposed nakedly, no matter what you call it, it isn’t dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
clyde said:
No. It shows that he didn’t ‘invent’ and that he had dokusan with one of his teachers, albeit a Rinzai Zen teacher; but it doesn’t say that he hadn’t had dokusan with So-on or with any of his other Soto Zen teachers.

Malcolm wrote:
Russell's Teapot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
If you want to publicly argue that a well known teacher of Dzogchen does not teach Dzogchen, or teaches it wrong, that’s your prerogative. I don’t even have the scholarly or theoretical background to respond.

Malcolm wrote:
All I can say is this, the Tantra Without Syllables states:

Therefore, it is said there are no errors in the scriptures, but errors can arise in the intimate instructions.

Fame or popularity is irrelevant here.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I am unclear on how the Wisdom experience courses work sans Dzogchen transmission

Malcolm wrote:
You don't need it, and it acts as a feeder course for his other courses, where he does give empowerments. People are who interested are referred to the Santa Barbara Institute for his higher level teachings.

As I said, there is no problem with encouraging people to practice śamatha, and in the lam rim schools this is a very proper way to go. But Dzogchen is not a gradual path, and mastering śamatha/vipaśyana will never expose rig pa, which is clearly stated by Longchenpa and repeated by CHNN in his book on longsal trekchod, nearly word for word.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I concede that I may have underestimated his emphasis on shamatha due to lack of in person exposure.

Malcolm wrote:
It is quite possible to give a lot of instructions on Dzogchen teachings, while at the same time discouraging people from practicing them until they reach some imaginary level.

Garab Dorje never said "practice a lot of śamatha, then practice vipaśyāna, and then maybe you will be ready for direct introduction." He also never said, "practice prostrations, then bodhicitta, then vajrasattva, etc."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
Suzuki did spend time with Kishizawa, but also studied with the Rinzai teacher Gempo Yamamoto at Ryutaku-ji (among others).  Whatever he may have learned from Kishizawa, it appears that he practiced dokusan with Yamamoto.

Malcolm wrote:
Which supports Matylda's contention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
clyde said:
Malcolm, I know that Matylda is from a Soto Zen family, is very knowledgeable about Japanese Soto Zen, and often acts as a translator. And when I wrote “Suzuki Roshi” I was referring to Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, not the scholar D.T. Suzuki.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, my error, but I meant Suzuki Roshi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
clyde said:
I don’t know the details of Suzuki Roshi’s training, but he trained with a number of teachers so unless you know how Suzuki Roshi was trained by each of his teachers we can’t say that what Suzuki Roshi did was “invented” as it may have been transmitted to him from one or more of his teachers.

And what is there to “invent”?

Malcolm wrote:
Clyde, you realize that Matylda is from a soto family in Japan, often acts as a translator for western students? She is the single most informative person about Soto Zen in Japan on this forum. If she tells you D.T. Suzuki introduced something that was not present before, you ought to believe her.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
The Practice of contemplation

Malcolm wrote:
Was actually written by Costantino Albini, not by ChNN, thought it was edited out of retreat materials. In any case, it is just an approach to the four samadhis of sems sde. Even so, it depends on direct introduction. Also, properly understood "released śamatha" is just the second stage, mi g.yp ba, not moving, which is the integration of movement with stillness. Actually, though these things are presented as gradual, the four samadhis of the Kham system of sems sde are not actually gradual, just as the four symbols of klong sde are not gradual, and the four equipoises of man ngag sde are not gradual. All three series depend on working with the transmission of direct introduction. If someone is teaching about Dzogchen without giving their students introduction, then what their students are practicing is not Dzogchen at all, not even a little bit, this is axiomatic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
He states in his Wisdom Experience courses that he thinks achieving shamatha is a good goal, but does not present it as a pre requisite for Dzogchen. Indeed, that wouldn’t even make sense for the text he’s working off of.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, his students think it is is a prerequisite and have told me he insists on it in his retreats. There are people out there trying achieve perfect śamatha in retreat because they believe that is what BAW wants before moving on to Dzogchen. There must be a reason why so many of them think this and act accordingly, right?

In any case, I am just reflecting what Longchenpa says and what my own gurus have taught in relationship to that. People are free to do what they want and follow who they want. It's not like achieving perfect śamatha according to the middle Bhāvanakrma is a bad thing, it just isn't Dzogchen at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa again:

Here, the special path of the essential core (snying thig) is superior in five ways to the common meditations employed as the path: (1) There is no distinction between sharp and dull in faculties because vidyā is nakedly realized. [...]

And the Sound Tantra:

There are neither dull nor sharp in capacity.

Vasana said:
Do these unequivocally trump the categories of capacities listed in Namkhai Norbu's books on semde, shine and lhatong?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course. Also ChNN commentary on Longsal trekcho literally reproduces Longchenpa's commments on the kind of śamatha and vipaśyanā I mentioned above, pg. 95-97.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
Vasana said:
It's a point that is worth investigating directly with BAW or his senior students...

What's best from the perspective of a practitioner like Longchenpa with the highest of highest capacities might not be best for the majority of practitioners with much lesser or middling capacities or circumstances.

Malcolm wrote:
https://media.sbinstitute.com/courses/spring2016/

All you need to do is look over these transcripts, and you can see that BAW clearly insists that one must, as a preliminary, focus on perfecting śamatha.

But this is not the path of Dzogchen and it never has been. Longchenpa again:

Here, the special path of the essential core (snying thig) is superior in five ways to the common meditations employed as the path: (1) There is no distinction between sharp and dull in faculties because vidyā is nakedly realized. (2) There is no dependence on analytical wisdom because pellucidity is directly realized by one’s sense organs. (3) There is no hope for meaning in intellectualism and rhetoric because vidyā that is beyond words is realized to be pellucid. {420} (4) Other than whatever appears as positive and negative delusions, there is no basis for confident clinging and grasping to appearances because the three kāyas are realized to be path appearances. (5) View, meditation, conduct, and result are seen as obscurations of vidyā because naked vidyā is pellucid. Therefore, since there is no basis for confidence in the śamatha and vipaśyanā of the repose of a calm mind, [the path of the essential core] is superior.

And the Sound Tantra:

There are neither dull nor sharp in capacity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
Vasana said:
B.Alan Wallace:
And yes your vipassana will go much better if you fully achieve shamatha.

Malcolm wrote:
And Longchenpa, Treasury of Dharmadhātu Autocommentary:

Therefore, since there is no basis for confidence in the śamatha and vipaśyanā of the repose of a calm mind, [the path of the essential core (snying thig)] is superior.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2023 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
If someone is saying achievement of perfect Shamatha is a pre requisite for Dzogchen I can see the complaint, but not even BAW does that.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, he does:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/within-you-without-you/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2023 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:


Tata1 said:
He explainedd both what guru yoga and dedication are. And he also gave, and is giving dzogchen transmission.

Its normal to be confused if this are.your firsts times.

ject said:
Those poorly interpreted short definitions of guruyoga and dedicating merit? Yes, I know the definitions but I am sure it's not enough to properly practice any of it. I probably have to get the book (162 pages by Namkhai Norbu https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/en/products/2370000039538_guruyoga.html ) to get a better idea.

Malcolm wrote:
There are three essential books you need to have to understand ChNN's presentation of Dzogchen: the Guruyoga book; the Precious Vase, and the Song of the Vajra book. Now that you have received transmission from YSN, you can purchase these books and learn from them. Many Dzogchen practices such as the separation of samsara and nirvana as well as the semzins can be practiced with no further required transmissions other than a direct introduction. So now it is up to you. You practice these things, you gain some experience, and then you will have something to ask about. In the meantime, without some experience, you will not have any real valid questions. First things first, however. Learn Song of the Vajra. It is the supreme method of discovering your real nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2023 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Also I’m skeptical as to a distinction between developing trekchod based on semdzins vs. shine. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen techniques like gazing on the white ah actually called a semdzin somewhere.

So, I don’t really get the functional distinction other than Semdzins being more entertaining and interesting than traditional Shine techniques. I don’t mean that facetiously, more entertaining often means more engaging…but I don’t really get the distinction outside of this or that (maybe hyperbolic) claim of greater efficacy..

Malcolm wrote:
The term semzin is a translation of the term dharāṇa, as as it sounds, it is a prelude to dhyāna and samādhi.

There are twenty-one semzins mentioned explicitly in the the Dzogchen tantras and there is a smaller subset identified by . They are divided into three groups: the first group of seven are for placing the mind in a calm state; the second group of seven are for parting mind and body; and the third group of seven are for entering into dharmatā. Then there is rushan practice. But as I already mentioned, Longchenpa criticizes the approach of normative śamatha and vipaśyanā, which is object-bases. You might object, the semzins are object based as well. However, the semszin are structured in a logical sequence which indeed is more efficient, and allow one to easily discover the natural dhyāna of rig pa, which after all is the point.

This is far more effective than trying to achieve perfect śamatha, which is still based in mind, and is without any method of nakedly exposing rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2023 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
In fact, takes on Dzogchen that just “blam here’s Trekchod” seem to be rarer to me.

Malcolm wrote:
If it isn't trekchö, it isn't Dzogchen. A beginner's practice should be focused on developing trekchö, systematically using the semzins and rushans. Sure, one can also apply Dzogchen view to the cultivation of the first dhyāna or also deity yoga using the six limb approach, but in reality, klong sde and man ngag sde are faster and more certain than these sems sde approaches.

The idea that one needs to spend months and years on developing śamatha according the middle Bhāvanakrama of Kamalaśila is misguided, from the point of view of Longchenpa. Longchenpa very specifically criticizes this approach in chapter 10 of the autocommentary of the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2023 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
ject said:
In this context, how do you "sign up" with a lama? Is there a some type of formal procedure? A "25 words or less" type of elevator pitch?

Explain it in few words like I was completely clueless.

Malcolm wrote:
Usually, just go to their teaching. You are interested, they are teaching, that's all there is to it.

ject said:
Lets use current Merigar event as an example. Perhaps this helps you to understand my confusion.

1. I could not schedule a trip so I am using webcast. In other words, I never met him in person.

Malcolm wrote:
Even if you went in person, you would not have met him. There are 1000 people there.

ject said:
2. Every lecture is begins with guruyoga. I have a faint idea of what it's about but sure, I could read a book about it but guess what, it needs an introduction.... from a guru who is long gone.

Malcolm wrote:
It is about discovering the state the teacher introduced you to and then continuing in that state.

ject said:
3. It ends with a "Dedication of merit" that sounds completely different from the one I have seen.

Malcolm wrote:
The Oṃ dhare...etc is not actually the dedication. It is a series of mantras from Jigme Lingpa that are used to seal one's dedication. There are actually verses of dedication in the longer secondary practices we recite, concluding with om dhare....

ject said:
4. Lets say, he has another event, same structure: guruyoga - lecture- dedication of merit

5. Do I have to go and find another guru to learn what guruyoga and dedication of merit are all about if he has not planned a seminar on those topics?

Malcolm wrote:
You could just read the Guru Yoga book by Yeshe's father. It has all the necessary information.

ject said:
6. As I mentioned, I have never met Silvano Namkhai in person. He has no idea I even exist but by what you just wrote, I can call him my guru and he has no say in it.

Malcolm wrote:
We are all followers of the Buddha, and he also has no say in it.

ject said:
How can there be any "personal guidance" in a situation like this?

Malcolm wrote:
Personal guidance is overrated. But frankly, more detailed questions can be handled by SMS instructors like Steve Landsberg, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2023 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Prayers for Thrangu Rinpoche.
Content:
Giovanni said:
Reliable sources are saying that the great Kagyu teacher Thrangu Rinpoche is critically ill in hospital.
Your prayers are requested. His teachings have touched the lives of many.

Malcolm wrote:
It's not surprising. He is 90 years old. Impermanence. No one lives forever. Not even Buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2023 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
ject said:
In this context, how do you "sign up" with a lama? Is there a some type of formal procedure? A "25 words or less" type of elevator pitch?

Explain it in few words like I was completely clueless.

Malcolm wrote:
Usually, just go to their teaching. You are interested, they are teaching, that's all there is to it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2023 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Christians Struggling to “understand” Buddhism
Content:
PeterC said:
Though it does not follow from their articles of faith, you will find that most of them also believe that we have no capacity for morality beyond self-interest.

Malcolm wrote:
Considering that their goal is personal salvation, this is not surprising in the least. There is no bodhicitta in Christianity, nor Hinduism, Islam, etc., regardless of their charitable motivations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2023 at 11:00 AM
Title: Re: Christians Struggling to “understand” Buddhism
Content:


justsit said:
The old and new testaments are quite different. I am referring only to the new...no slavery justified there, more of the "love your neighbor, do good to those who persecute you" stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
I am referring to Ephesians 6:5:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

There are several similar passages in the New Testament.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2023 at 10:56 AM
Title: Re: Christians Struggling to “understand” Buddhism
Content:
Shinjin said:
Mother Theresa

Malcolm wrote:
Is not who you think she is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2023 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Re: Giuliani:

https://eddsa.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/public/650033_2023_Noelle_Dunphy_v_Rudolph_W_Giuliani_et_al_COMPLAINT_10.pdf


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2023 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: Christians Struggling to “understand” Buddhism
Content:
Archie2009 said:
The bible is a disgusting book. You can justify being a completely immoral piece of s*** on it.

justsit said:
Try the New Testament, as written, not as interpreted by certain so-called Christians. There are some good people who do try to live according to what Jesus actually taught, they just usually don't get any press.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm…you mean the book that justifies slavery, etc.?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2023 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Euthanizing pets...
Content:
shaunc said:
Putting a dog down, or any other animal for that matter is without doubt the worst part of owning an animal.
Unfortunately it is part of being a responsible animal owner.
Good luck and best wishes.

Malcolm wrote:
I think owning a sentient being is the worst part of owning an animal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2023 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Christians Struggling to “understand” Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhist, struggling to understand the incomprehensible mess called "Christianity."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2023 at 7:04 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:





Jules 09 said:
I don't agree that this is an accurate way to represent the Dzogchen teachings.

Samantabhadra/Rigpa never grasps, and therefore never strays into the first thought.

Sentient beings are dreaming the six realms, dreaming the teachings and dreaming that that there is so called 'liberation'.

Samantabhadra/Rigpa has always been awake.

natusake said:
The teachings include how sentient beings are ignorant in addition to how samantabhadra is liberated. You can't 'represent' Dzogchen teachings without both. If Dzogchen teachings were just about the latter, then there wouldn't be anything to teach, and there would be no Dzogchen teachings at all.
The teachings include how sentient beings are ignorant in addition to how samantabhadra is liberated.

Jules 09 said:
Who told you that the Primordial Buddha Samantabhadra/Rigpa needs to be liberated?

Malcolm wrote:
That’s topic 2 of the 11 topics of dzogchen., the liberation of Samantabhadra and the delusion of sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2023 at 4:02 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
I don't agree that this is an accurate way to represent the Dzogchen teachings.

Samantabhadra/Rigpa never grasps, and therefore never strays into the first thought.

Sentient beings are dreaming the six realms, dreaming the teachings and dreaming that that there is so called 'liberation'.

Samantabhadra/Rigpa has always been awake.

Malcolm wrote:
This has nothing to do with what you agree or disagree with Jules. There is considerable room for improvement in your understanding of Dzogchen. For example, are you going to disagree with Vimalamitra when he states:

Thus, ignorance (ma rig pa) depends on knowledge (rig pa) and delusion depends on nondelusion. As such, knowledge (rig pa) itself becomes ignorance (ma rig pa) and nondelusion becomes delusion.

Or the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra, pg. 196

Ignorance (ma rig pa) is realized essentially to be knowledge (rig pa);
concepts are realized to be the state of dharmatā;
the five attachments and aversions are the five pristine
consciousnesses;
the five objects are realized as the pure five lights..

Or, on page 274:

Vidyā (which can neither be clarified nor obscured)
and (the various appearances of) ignorance
are inseparable, realized to be one entity.

Or page 286:

Both knowledge (rig pa) and ignorance (ma rig pa) are also concepts of grasping.

Or page 354:

“The example for vidyā and ignorance is the form of water and ripples—
depending on conditions.

Other examples that are used for rig pa and ma rig pa being the same entity are water and ice, etc.

At the time when the basis stirred, Samantabhadra never entered into delusion, but in the first moment, he experienced ignorance—the ignorance of the same identical cause and the connate ignorance. Khenpo Ngachung affirms this in his notes on Nyoshul Khenpo's thogal teaching, folio 17/a, when Nyoshul Khenpo discusses the liberation of Samantabhadra: "Both of those [ignorances] existed for Samantabhadra, but wisdom (prajñā) arose at that juncture."

The whole point of Dzogchen is to understand how ignorance arose and how to reverse that process. You keep on inventing artificial criteria which are not reflected in the tradition and certainly are not consistent with how my teachers have taught Dzogchen teachings. Since I don't want to insult your teachers, I can only conclude that you have not studied hard enough and have been content with a superficial understanding the subject.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2023 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Kai lord said:
It was said that those who have achieved the six superknowledge or specifically para Citta ādi abhijñatā, can perceive the thoughts of others directly.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, when the mind grasps characteristics, but only then.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2023 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


yagmort said:
but this is what i'm saying. picturing red ball is not a thought. if we need to call it something i woud call it visualization. is it mental activity? yes. is it a thought? no. what's there to think about? but, picturing red ball may easely trigger the train of thoughts though.
this is what Malcolm said: "Thoughts" are a reification of mental events. Whether there is reification or not, mental events happen". i take what he says is thoughts are not the same as mental events, they are reifications. something happend, like your body made an impulse notifying you are thirsty, and then there is narration of this event expressed by words: "hey, i am thirsty, i need to drink"

Malcolm wrote:
Concepts are reifications of mental impressions through the six senses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2023 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...“Thoughts” are a reification of mental events.  Whether there is reification or not, mental:events happen...

yagmort said:
what is the nature of this "mental events"? why are they happening? can the mind be just still, resting in the quiescence?

Malcolm wrote:
It will still be accompanied by mental factors.

yagmort said:
i have problem understanting of what a thought is according to dzogchen/vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Just the same as in abhidharma.

yagmort said:
heart told me "All activity in the mind is thoughts". i don't quite grasp this because what is the difference between human beings and animals then?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing, other than the fact that we have more discernment than animals and can use language.


yagmort said:
a cat can figure out to open a door by jumping on a door handle.. does that mean cat thinks? to me the answer is "no", because thoughts are products of language.

Malcolm wrote:
No, language is a product of thought.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2023 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Yes, that is the characteristic of deluded dualistic mind, sems, which reaches out and grasps at objects that it mistakenly believes are real. Non-dual awareness, rigpa, doesn't do that.

So, in the context of Dzogchen practice, it is important to be able to distinguish between dualistic mind, sems, which forms concepts about perceived objects, and non-dual awareness, rigpa; which does not grasp at appearances, or form concepts about them.

Malcolm wrote:
Howeve, what does the grasping is actually rig pa, which is why rig pa become ma rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2023 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Oh, and I was hoping that you would show me a thought that was a findable object...

Malcolm wrote:
You just found one and set it down in writing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2023 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Thoughts are objects, really??

Malcolm wrote:
The object of the mental consciousness sense base (mano-āyatana) is the contents of the sense base of phenomena (dharmas) among the twelve sense bases, just as the object of eye consciousness sense base is the form sense base. The content of the sense base of phenomena is all mental activity, the ten neutral mental factors, applied attention, sustained attention, the ten positive mental factors, the six negative mental factors, the 14 afflicted mental factors, and so on.

From Stainless Space (supporting trekcho text):

Just as reflections arise in limpid water (chu dwangs), the eyes and clairvoyances will arise from limpid vidyā.  Moreover, one should practice by leaving the [six] sense faculties in their own limpidity (rang dwangs) without obstruction. Since the main sense organ, the eyes, are limpid, vidyā is limpid, because the eyes are the actual door of pristine consciousness. Otherwise, just as the appearance of reflections do not condition the water, [35/b] likewise, even though all outer appearances arise as a brilliant vision, since one’s consciousness does become lost among such appearances, it is said “they are not established in vidyā"...

Now then, if one becomes mindless (dran med) when meditating through blocking the group of six [eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and consciousness], one will deviate into an ignorant meditation. 

If one meditates having blocked the six outer objects, although there is mindfulness (dran pa), since objects are not clear, it is called “falling into one-sided śamatha”, and one will be reborn in the formless realms and so on. 

Though objects appear, since extremes have not been eliminated by the view, merely abiding in a mind of clarity and emptiness is a trace for being reborn in the form realm and so on. 

Therefore, having recognized that vidyā as liberated from extremes, it is very important that while in the state where there is no grasping to any objects or consciousness, objects are clear and vidyā is limpid. That is the pristine consciousness liberated from the three realms, called "the transcendent state of the universe and beings resting in the basis."

The vijñānaskandha, the aggregate of consciousness, itself is already nonconceptual by nature. When it perceives mental objects, such as a concept it takes another name, called "mental consciousness" (manovijñāna)." When it perceives form, it takes the name "eye consciousness" (cakṣurvijñāna).

Longchenpa is here indicating that you do not block the senses, which includes manas, the mental organ, nor to you block concepts, and so on, which are the object of the mental organ. The point is to not allow accepting or rejecting of either objects or consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



Arnoud said:
So it is like a circle where the activity of the mind distracts one away from the potential, the potential again becomes the activity of the mind and so on?

Are the 6 intellects typically translated as the 6 consciousnesses? The 5 sense and 1 mental consciousness?


Malcolm wrote:
When one is just resting in the six senses, there is no outward straying, inward withdrawal, nor remaining the middle. The five sense contact their objects, thus there are appearances, but there is no reification about these appearances, for example, "this is originally pure" and so on. The minute one enters into dualism, "I am over here, the appearance is over there" the imputing ignorance kicks into play and one is lost in dualistic vision. Those appearances are part of "the radiance of rig pa" a.k.a "the potential of compassion," when they are recognized for what they are, gradually one integrates with this.

Tata1 said:
Radiance is "dang"?

Malcolm wrote:
In this case, yes, gdangs. For when example, the essence, nature, and compassion are described, the essence is emptiness (stong pa), the nature is clarity (gsal ba), and compassion is cognizance (rig pa).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Arnoud said:
And activity of the mind equals thoughts and mental events?

Malcolm wrote:
When one is distracted, the potential of compassion becomes the six intellects; when one is not distracted, it is just the potential of compassion. The path of the dzogchen yogi is just the potential, rtsal.

Arnoud said:
So it is like a circle where the activity of the mind distracts one away from the potential, the potential again becomes the activity of the mind and so on?

Are the 6 intellects typically translated as the 6 consciousnesses? The 5 sense and 1 mental consciousness?


Malcolm wrote:
When one is just resting in the six senses, there is no outward straying, inward withdrawal, nor remaining the middle. The five sense contact their objects, thus there are appearances, but there is no reification about these appearances, for example, "this is originally pure" and so on. The minute one enters into dualism, "I am over here, the appearance is over there" the imputing ignorance kicks into play and one is lost in dualistic vision. Those appearances are part of "the radiance of rig pa" a.k.a "the potential of compassion," when they are recognized for what they are, gradually one integrates with this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: AI and translation
Content:
Humanic said:
I have been thinking lately about if it will ever be possible to have Tibetan texts translated accurately by AI.

Are the days of the lotsawa numbered?

Malcolm wrote:
No. In particular, native Tibetan compositions. Tibetan is a synonym poor language, in general. Many words functioning completely differently in different contexts. Then there are colloquial terms, which very from region to region.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Arnoud said:
And activity of the mind equals thoughts and mental events?

Malcolm wrote:
When one is distracted, the potential of compassion becomes the six intellects; when one is not distracted, it is just the potential of compassion. The path of the dzogchen yogi is just the potential, rtsal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Is there rainbow body phenomenon in other Buddhist traditions? (Outside of Nyingma/Bon)
Content:
VolkerK said:
https://thespiritoflife.net/2019/04/24/everyone-could-attain-a-rainbow-body/

Malcolm wrote:
No, they can’t. In highest yoga tantra, what they call “rainbow body” is a specific effect of the completion stage; in dzogchen, it arises because of an explicit understanding of how to reverse the reification of material appearances into pristine consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
However, when vidyā is stable, because the radiance of vidyā dissolves into the basis, mind ceases for a moment...

Kai lord said:
Are such experiences being induced during direct introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is what happens.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As It Is vol. 2, “Iron Rod Technique,” pg. 69:

"If you want to totally stop encountering anything, and experience no mind, perceive no appearances, have your friend give you a hard whack over the head. Then you will succeed, at least for a while. When both thinking and perception cease, there is the state we call 'utter oblivion', which is mindless and without thought. That state resembles the original cause of ignorance. When both the thinking and the perceived are halted, your samsaric state is only put on pause, on hold. 

[...}If your training is for the purpose of bringing thinking and experience to a halt, you must have somebody knock you out. If you prefer you could also do it by yourself. You don't need to have somebody else knock you out. Every time you wake up, take hold of the iron bar, if that's your training, and knock yourself out. You could get quite good at it after a while! This is quite easy to accomplish. As soon as you regain your senses and start to have one thought, immediately hit yourself on the head! Your meditation aid would be the iron bar. This will help you to reach the ultimate stupidity! If you want to bring both sensations and thoughts to a halt use the iron bar. This was the pointing-out instruction for the stupid state of complete oblivion."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 8:56 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What you are calling "thoughts" is just the radiance of rig pa. When that radiance wanders towards objects, it becomes mind, and then there are concepts. Once that radiance has been recognized, thoughts only happen when one is distracted.

laowhining said:
Can you please explain in a little more detail how thoughts only happening when one is distracted is functionally different from Jules' assertion that thoughts don't happen when one is resting rig pa?

Malcolm wrote:
“Thoughts” are a reification of mental events.  Whether there is reification or not, mental:events happen.

laowhining said:
Could we maybe say thoughts are the radiance of rig pa and it is _thinking_ that happens when one is distracted? But even that feels like it misses the mark because, as you pointed out and Norbu Rinpoche often taught, one can still hold a conversation, drive, cook, etc.

I have to be honest, this is a point I have a lot of trouble understanding and while I recognize at some level that Jules is mistaken, I'm still not clear on why and how he's mistaken, and I'd rather not fall off the same conceptual cliff.

Is the point just that thoughts ceaselessly pour out of the mind because that is its function and the only difference is whether you get carried away by them or just recognize them as thoughts? It feels like perhaps that's it, but if that's it, I don't understand how Jules wouldn't get that.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the point is whether one is distracted or not by the activity of the mind, that’s all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Yes.
Mind exits, stage left.

Malcolm wrote:
Sort of…instead thoughts become objects (they already are), since they are nothing other than the radiance of vidya. That’s why, even in a state of rig pa, one can drive, talk, pay bills, eat, use a restroom, etc. it’s not like being in a state of rig pa induces cushion paralysis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
When there is sems, there is no rigpa. When there is rigpa, there is no sems.

One is latent when the other is manifest, just as when the sun sets, then the darkness is right there. It is like that.
Once you become stable in rigpa, sems does not have a chance.

Malcolm wrote:
This needs a bit of clarification. Longchenpa states in the Lama Yangthig, Stainless Space:

When mind comes and goes, vidyā is not truly evident. When vidyā remains in its own radiance, mind is not evident, seeming as though when one arises, the other ceases. However, when vidyā is stable, because the radiance of vidyā dissolves into the basis, mind ceases for a moment...When the mind arises, the radiance is evident; because the state of vidyā is not evident, it seems to have ceased (although it does not cease, since it does not arise or cease). 

That being so, it is very important to distinguish mind and pristine consciousness because all meditation is just that: all methods of purifying vāyu and vidyā are that; and in the end at the time of liberation, vidyā is purified of all obscurations because it is purified of the mind. The transcendent state abides as kāyas and pristine consciousness, and all critical points meet there.

And:

At that time, mental appearances and traces of the body, speech and mind are self-purified since one remains in vidyā’s own state. Since vidyā does not move, one is liberated from the minds of the desire realm. Since not even clarity is apprehended, one is liberated from the minds of form realm. Even though one is without concepts, since the radiance of vidyā unceasingly appears as objects, one is liberated from the minds of the formless realm.

What you are calling "thoughts" is just the radiance of rig pa. When that radiance wanders towards objects, it becomes mind, and then there are concepts. Once that radiance has been recognized, thoughts only happen when one is distracted. The proof that one is utterly undistracted, as Longchenpa points out, is the body of light:

However, when vidyā is stable, because the radiance of vidyā dissolves into the basis, mind ceases for a moment. The ordinary physical body dissolves into light, or when it is cast aside, since the breath stops, the body stops.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: 48 vows of Amitabha Buddha
Content:
Shinjin said:
Agree with Zhen Li. Concept of "other power" can be found all over Mahayana including Tibetan sects. How is birth in the Pure Land possible without the power of the 48 vows?

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that "other power" is not a thing in Tibetan Buddhism. In Tibetan Buddhism, birth in Sukhavati depends on one's own aspirations, etc.

Shinjin said:
How would those aspirations be effective without the 48 vows?

Malcolm wrote:
This has all been hashed over before.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: How many sutras
Content:


Sentient Light said:
Considering we just found the earliest known statuary Buddha form in...Africa last week,

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/buddha-statue-found-berenike-egypt-180982075/

Maybe not the oldest, however:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimaran_casket


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: 48 vows of Amitabha Buddha
Content:
Shinjin said:
Agree with Zhen Li. Concept of "other power" can be found all over Mahayana including Tibetan sects. How is birth in the Pure Land possible without the power of the 48 vows?

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that "other power" is not a thing in Tibetan Buddhism. In Tibetan Buddhism, birth in Sukhavati depends on one's own aspirations, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2023 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


sherabpa said:
There can be no problem of atmanavada unless one says the tathātagarbha can be grasped by the conceptual mind, which it cannot.

natusake said:
Brahman is also stated to not be grasped by the conceptual mind. Do atmavadins not have the fault of atmavada?

Malcolm wrote:
This is just a form of apophatic mysticism. The argument that something is valid because it is beyond the conceptual mind is incoherent.

Asserting that the nature of the mind (tathāta) is not empty, while the mind itself is empty, is also incoherent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 10:08 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Trump doing the jerk off dance poolside to Village People's YMCA:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
PeterC said:
Not to mention that going on social media every day making personal attacks on a member of the federal judiciary

Malcolm wrote:
It's a campaign strategy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 10:21 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Passing By said:
Are they really incompatible? Prasanga and Uttaratantrashastra. I mean lhundrub being a quality of kadak and the basis being nonarising and deathless doesn't seem so far fetched really

sherabpa said:
Yes I believe I misspoke there. The 9 examples are naturally compatible with prasangika. I meant there is a merely apparent incompatibility if one considers the non-emptiness of buddha nature to be subject to conceptual madhyamaka analysis.

Malcolm wrote:
If by the “non-emptiness of buddha nature” you are asserting buddha nature is something that is truly established, your view is no better than the view of nonBuddhists. If by the “non-emptiness of buddha nature” you simply mean that emptiness of suchness is also not truly established, than this fault is avoided.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 10:04 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


sherabpa said:
Yes tathāta itself is the garbha of a , and it is like space. But that is not the only metaphor used. It is also like a wish-fulfilling jewel, because the space of tathāta it is inseparable from the qualities. It is also like a vessel, a lamp, water and so forth. Yes the qualities are functions of the two accumulations, but in the sense of clearing away the obscuring factors, as the 9 examples show. In essence the Tathātagarbha is unchanging.

Malcolm wrote:
Yet, tathāta is also empty, it is not something truly established. If it were, it would be an inherent existent.

sherabpa said:
I do understand the difficulty of considering primordial wisdom to exist in the basis.


Malcolm wrote:
Pristine consciousness is the basis, but it also is not a truly established entity. The basis itself is baseless and has no foundation. Whatever qualities or faults that  arise from it are equally the same. It is this point that renders Dzogchen more profound than the Uttaratantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 9:05 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Vasana said:
To not take it too seriously, I imagine all of these very serious conversations by very serious adults must sound like young childeren arguing about fairy tales from the perspectives of realized beings.

Malcolm wrote:
Realized beings like children, even when they argue about fairy tales.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 6:13 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Thoughts are illusory, unreal

Malcolm wrote:
So is rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
And none of the authors of the dzogchen tantras are your teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
well, I know people who where there, you don't, and when they look at your posts, they laugh, because they studied at TUR's feet.

As for the Dzogchen tantras, at least I have the lungs, the blessings of the lineage, and the intimate instructions of all three series.

There is no lung or explanations of TUR's books outside of receiving them from EPK, Marcia, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
DNS said:
And Trump is back in the news again too.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/09/politics/e-jean-carroll-trump-lawsuit-battery-defamation-verdict/index.html
New York
CNN
—
A Manhattan federal jury found that Donald Trump sexually abused E. Jean Carroll in a luxury department store dressing room in the spring of 1996 and awarded her $5 million for battery and defamation.
It's a civil suit, so Trump will undoubtedly tie it up in appeals for years.

PeterC said:
He can try, but unfortunately once he's in the appellate courts, he needs to be raising issues of law, not of fact.  By not offering a defense in the court of first instance, he has severely limited his grounds for contesting the award subsequently.  It's not clear that there are many grounds on which an appeals court could actually hear and appeal for this case.  Also there is the issue that no decent lawyer will work for trump these days.

Malcolm wrote:
And here it is:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.590045/gov.uscourts.nysd.590045.179.0.pdf


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Jules09 said:
But if, as you say, "Thoughts are just the expression of awareness"; how will that approach ever end?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not an approach: the mind is just the radiance of rig pa mixed with karma vāyus. When those vāyus subside, so does the mind. When those vayus are active, also the mind is active.

The point you fail to recognize, or have not been shown, is that once the radiance of rig pa has been exposed and identified for what it is, whether there are thoughts or not does not matter, just as one is able to identify someone's face in a crowd after one has been introduced to them. Further you are apparently unaware of the method of using strong concepts, like hatred, to expose rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Here is the statement from Tulku Urgyen:

Malcolm wrote:
Who is not your teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice
Content:
Passing By said:
On that note, isn't Dudjom Throma also based on Dzogchen? But yet it has its own empowerment.....What's the made difference between that and Longchen Nyingthig chod?

Malcolm wrote:
In meaning, nothing. In tradition, one is the system of Jigling; the other, the system of Dudjom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Care to quote me a book and page number?

treehuggingoctopus said:
Naturally. SMS1 Trainings, July 1994 to June 2001. Volume 1, pages 279-281 (the section of Ati Dzogchen view, the transcript of Namgyalgar SMS 1, April 1997 teachings).

Malcolm wrote:
Why don't you take a look at the passage ChNN is referencing? However, the passage is not exactly what ChNN represents it to be in Mipham's text.

In Speech of Delight, pg. 125-134, you will find that Mipham is equating several scholars view of freedom from extremes (spros bral): Longchenpa, Gorampa, Marpa, Milarepa, Sapan, Tsongkhapa, Rangjung Dorje, Dolbupa, and Taranatha in that order. I have already pointed out that Dolbupa and other gzhan stong pas agree equipoise can only be free from all proliferation. Since other-emptiness is a post-equipoise view, it is necessarily conceptual.  Mipham also claims that the post-equipoise view of gzhan stong is analytical (133). This passage is also the sole passage where sugatagarbha is mentioned in the whole text.

Mipham then goes on to diplomatically discuss skillful means, and the necessity of teaching different sorts of teachings to different beings.

Moreover, in 1993, Conway, when discussing the Sakya master Mangtho, normally considered a gzhan stong pa, ChNN stated clearly that while there were similarities with gzhan stong in terms of the idea that the three kāyas were present in the basis, he distinguished Dzogchen from gzhan stong by point out that in Dzogchen the three kāyas are just potentials which require secondary conditions for manifestation, just as he does in the passage you mention here.

Finally, Mipham declares on page 84/85, my translation, "Because the intent of Śrī Candra—the profound view in which the biases of false conventions dissolve into the [dharma]dhātu because all these appearances are immediately pure where they are—is equivalent to the way original purity is confirmed in the texts of the Great Perfection, it is endorsed in our own lineage of vidyādharas..."

He earlier clarifies (pg. 75) that Candra's approach, is in his estimation, a cig car ba approach, one of equipoise in the union of two truths, (pg. 151), "There, through the way of the Consequence [prasanga] one gains certainty regarding the final Middle Way that accords with wakefulness [ye shes, gnosis] of equipoise."

The Yogacāra Madhyamaka, he states, is a gradualist presentation.

Thus, no one can claim that the final view of Nyingma school is not Candra's. We have the evidence of both Longchenpa and Mipham, as well as ChNN on this point.

So unlike your previous assertion that we shouldn't check the explanations of our teachers against the texts that they reference, in fact we actually do need to check their references.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2023 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: Russia to build Conservative Village for American Emigrants
Content:
conebeckham said:
404

Of course.
Not found.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/11/russia-to-build-migrant-village-for-conservative-american-expats-a81101

Good riddance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 11th, 2023 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Certain Question on "laughter of the dakinis" practice
Content:


Dawa Ösel said:
Sorry for diggi this up, found it through google

So, do i understand this correct, that if you have recived the direct introduction one would only need a lung for the
"laughter of the dakinis" practice to actullay do this practice?

Sorry for dubble checking, i just want to be sure about that

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 11th, 2023 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The nine examples have both a definitive understanding, compatible with prasanga, and an understanding that is an atmavada at worst, and false aspectarian yogacara at best.

sherabpa said:
To render the nine examples compatible with prasanga would require you to deny many passages in the Uttaratantrashastra itself, such as those concerning changelessness, the element not being empty, its being true permanence, bliss, self, and purity, and its being inseparable from qualities.

Malcolm wrote:
This is all resolved, simply put, through understanding tathātagarbha to be tathāta itself. It's right there in the name. Tathāta itself is the garbha of a tathāgata.

sherabpa said:
However it is not equivalent to an atman or the mind of false aspectarian yogacara, because these are refuted by the inferential analysis of madhyamaka, whereas tathagatagarbha cannot be subject to such analysis, not being an object of conceptual understanding, as the Uttaratantrashastra itself says many times.

Malcolm wrote:
If the first nine examples are taken literally, then yes, there is the problem of atmanavada.

As far as the qualities go, the qualities are clearly explained in the Uttaratantra as being a function of the accumulation of the two heaps. The chapter of qualities clearly outlines the 64 qualities that belong to the three kāyas. If you assert that omniscience of all aspects exist fully formed in sentient beings, you are confronted with the absurdity that sentient beings clearly are not omniscient and so on. There are many other contradictions with the assertion that qualities exist fully formed in the basis, which is dispelled by the fact that basis is not just self-perfected. In the Uttaratantra, these 64 qualities are resultant qualities, not qualities of the basis.

But of course we can name the cause after the result, since we do this all the time in Buddhadharma. Since the the nature of all sentient beings is nothing other than suchness, when that suchness is realized, being the nature of all phenomena, it is not surprising at all that many qualities of the three kāyas manifest. Since the nature of sentient beings is just suchness, for this reason, tathāgatagarbha doctrine and prasanga are not in contradiction when it is understood that the tathāta of tathātagarbha is just the same suchness that is taught in the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras. The two texts even use the same metaphor, space, to describe tathāta. Just as space is the source of all phenomena, likewise, tathāta is the source of all qualities of buddahood, but also, all faults of sentient beings. Just as space is not established substantially or as truly existent, likewise, tathāta itself is not established substantially or as truly existent. The Uttaratantra declares that tathātagarbha is free from all extremes, therefore, rightly understood, it is perfectly consistent with prasangika, and indeed, a prasangika perspective is the only correct approach to this teaching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 11th, 2023 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Sanskrit for gDon
Content:
Linguistic Mystic said:
The Sanskrit for gdon is graha. Lotsawa House gives a good definition:

"Grahas (gdon) are understood to be both evil spirits and evil influences that are contained within or connected with a particular spirit or deity. They are also closely associated with the planets and other astronomical bodies. Grahas can inflict great harm on the human body and mind."

https://www.lotsawahouse.org/words-of-the-buddha/dukkar-chokdrupma


Malcolm wrote:
Care to provide a qualified example?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 12:09 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Jules 09 said:
all explanations are 'untrue'.

Malcolm wrote:
Makes your posts pretty pyrrhic then.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 11:51 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
sherabpa said:
Malcolm, if Longchenpa (and Gorampa) accept the Uttaratantrashastra as definitive meaning, then do they not accept the famous and central claim there that the element is empty of adventitious stains but not empty of unsurpassable qualities? And if they accept that statement as definitive, is that compatible with prasangika?

Malcolm wrote:
The nine examples have both a definitive understanding, compatible with prasanga, and an understanding that is an atmavada at worst, and false aspectarian yogacara at best.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 6:47 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
face it: the DW is Malcolm's place. He is the king here.

Malcolm wrote:
Nonsense.

However, when people wish to discuss tenets, they have to do better than just quote some passage from some past scholar and expect the conversation is over, and they have to admit when they have been caught in classical contradictions which have been pointed out by other past scholars. I personally don’t care about theses debates, but if someone asserts, incorrectly, that gzhan stong view is compatible with Dzogchen, I will reject this  because it is a false statement. Not only this, but I have heard ChNN state this point will absolute clarity on many occasions with my own ears. The only Madhyamaka view ChNN stated, and even written about, that was absolutely compatible with Dzogchen is the prasanga view, echoing Longchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 6:34 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
But there is one thing that I must say here: ChNN spoke of shentong in different ways at different times, to different people. The transcripts of his SMS1 teachings show that yes, there have been situations when he not only defended it (in Taranatha's version) but defended it explicitly as being something akin to Dzogchen, and something people practising Dzogchen should not disparage.

Malcolm wrote:
Care to quote me a book and page number? Because in fact ChNN stated that they were incompatible over the point of whether or not qualities were fully formed in the basis or not. In Dzogchen, those qualities are not fully formed in the basis.

Further, Dzogchen does not make use of three own natures. So, I’ll be waiting on those references.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Könchok Thrinley said:
Sorry but when a book is being translated at the moment you cannot really read it can you?

Not to mention that reading and INTERPRETING tantras is not an easy task. Many people can hardly understand regular texts. And commentaries are often not much clearer.

Malcolm wrote:
The Sound Tantra itself is basically a long but terse list. However, the commentary unpacks it nicely, and very clearly. I am more than halfway through the root text and commentary, and expect to be done with the draft by next summer. Wisdom has agreed to publish it in principle, so it will be available to practitioners. And I will be explaining portions of it before publication for those who are interested.

Dzogchen tantras can be a challenge to understand without commentaries, but with commentaries not so hard.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
I think there are situations when such closing off of conversational space is useful. I cannot for the world see the shentong talk at DW as being one of them.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not shutting down gzhan stong pas. They are free to say whatever they like. I have no power to control them, so stop acting like I do.

When it come to gzhan stong and Nyingma, apart from a handful of writers in the Nyingma school who adhered to to it, beginning in the 18th century, it was not a popular view in Nyingma. It was first popularized in Eastern Tibet among the Karma Kagyus, from whom it spread into some quarters of the Nyingma school via Kongtrul’s influence.

Rongzom would have rejected it. Longchenpa explicitly rejected it, as did Mipham, Khenpo Zhenga, and so on. Among those modern Dzogchen teachers who flat out rejected the compatibility of gzhan stong and Dzogchen view was Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, our own teacher, who mentioned this point many times. I imagine Khenchen Namdrol also rejects it, as his personal point of view is aligned with Gorampa, at least that’s what he told me thirty years ago (Gorampa = Dzogchen, was basically what he said).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
You put it as if it were an incontestable fact. Which of course it is not, and the distance between acknowledging that one's interpretation of X is an interpretation (however reasonable, well-grounded, defensible, etc) and putting forward one's interpretation as if it were an incontestable fact is a space in which chances for anything like a conversation grow increasingly thin.

Malcolm wrote:
Arguing that gzhan stong is a golden age doctrine is among those absurd criteria. The fact that the gzhan stong pa incorrectly apply the three natures in a manner in utter inconsistent with how they are explained in the foundational documents of the yogacara school, while simultaneously insisting that everyone else has it wrong is another.

Könchok Thrinley said:
Any quote on which you could prove that? Otherwise we will have to go and crosscheck and I am a slow reader so it might take a while.

Malcolm wrote:
Assuming you are referring to disagreement over the three natures , you will have to read Tsongkhapa, Gorampa, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Oh please. Characterizing Dolpopa in this way has got nothing to do with "clarifying for accuracy."

Malcolm wrote:
I’ve read Dolbupa, in translation and in Tibetan, as well as his detractors. I stand by my comment. Dolbupa reasonings are not very convincing, and are based on many absurd criterias.

treehuggingoctopus said:
You put it as if it were an incontestable fact. Which of course it is not, and the distance between acknowledging that one's interpretation of X is an interpretation (however reasonable, well-grounded, defensible, etc) and putting forward one's interpretation as if it were an incontestable fact is a space in which chances for anything like a conversation grow increasingly thin.

Malcolm wrote:
Arguing that gzhan stong is a golden age doctrine is among those absurd criteria. The fact that the gzhan stong pa incorrectly apply the three natures in a manner in utter inconsistent with how they are explained in the foundational documents of the yogacara school, while simultaneously insisting that everyone else has it wrong is another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 1:17 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Oh please. Characterizing Dolpopa in this way has got nothing to do with "clarifying for accuracy."

Malcolm wrote:
I’ve read Dolbupa, in translation and in Tibetan, as well as his detractors. I stand by my comment. Dolbupa reasonings are not very convincing, and are based on many absurd criterias.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 7:46 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Do not ever be surprised if people refuse to discuss things with you.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s their limitation, not mine.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Yours too, of course. Takes two to tango.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really, I am always willing to chat with anybody, but I am certainly not willing to agree with everybody, especially when I genuinely think they are in error, or are just blindly quoting opinions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
a morass of incoherent assertions lacking reasoning, more or less like Dolbuwa.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Do not ever be surprised if people refuse to discuss things with you.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s their limitation, not mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
↑ said:
But because people get hysterical whenever it is pointed out that a famous master’s writing contains faulty reasonings or citations, it is hard to have a rational discussion about this fact because Tibetan Buddhists are heavily invested in personality cults.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Well. Hard to disagree. But here people started to use the he-is-a-terton move when Dudjom Rinpoche was receiving another round of flak for upholding a shentong view, the view that is regularly attacked and ridiculed here, sometimes really unpleasantly. The context does matter.

Malcolm wrote:
Point of fact, he didn’t. And the fact is that gzhan stong pas here are incapable of responding with anything that isn’t just a morass of incoherent assertions lacking reasoning, more or less like Dolbuwa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2023 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Yes, of course, I get it. I have read the passage in question, after all.

Malcolm wrote:
Then my point stands.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, as Lingpupa pointed out, it does not, if, that is, your  point was that the fact that the quote is garbled undermines HHDR's interpretation of Madhyamaka.

Malcolm wrote:
My point was that people repeatedly use this citation as a proof text for their own arguments, like three vows did, without understanding the proof text itself is faulty. My point had nothing to do with DR’s understanding of Madhyamaka. That’s a separate issue. But because people get hysterical whenever it is pointed out that a famous master’s writing contains faulty reasonings or citations, it is hard to have a rational discussion about this fact because Tibetan Buddhists are heavily invested in personality cults.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, not sure who you are talking to here. Both Lingpupa and me know about the Tibetan convention of building up an argument from stacked quotes, and I am quite OK with the idea that the sources used by Tibetan authors in conventional exegeses will contain copious amounts of quotes of quotes of quotes, which makes the whole pyramid tottery and its content pretty much unverifiable. This, however, in no way undermines what I noted: That Bhavaviveka is incompletely preserved, and there are variants of it (and of course Lingpupa's earlier point also stands).

Malcolm wrote:
The point as addressed at the notion that prasanga and svatantra were Outer madhyamaka, while gzhan stong was inner, orbgreat madhyamaka. The original citation mentions nothing about all three Tibetan denominated systems, which were never known to Indians.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Yes, of course, I get it. I have read the passage in question, after all.

Malcolm wrote:
Then my point stands.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:



heart said:
You think Dudjom Rinpoche didn't work with Tibetan texts?

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not what I meant, but my post was incomplete. What I meant was that people who don’t work with Tibetan texts directly often do not understand patterns of textual citation in Tibetan traditions.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, not sure who you are talking to here. Both Lingpupa and me know about the Tibetan convention of building up an argument from stacked quotes, and I am quite OK with the idea that the sources used by Tibetan authors in conventional exegeses will contain copious amounts of quotes of quotes of quotes, which makes the whole pyramid tottery and its content pretty much unverifiable. This, however, in no way undermines what I noted: That Bhavaviveka is incompletely preserved, and there are variants of it (and of course Lingpupa's earlier point also stands).

Malcolm wrote:
The point as addressed at the notion that prasanga and svatantra were Outer madhyamaka, while gzhan stong was inner, orbgreat madhyamaka. The original citation mentions nothing about all three Tibetan denominated systems, which were never known to Indians.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Yes, teaching from the Natural State and directly transmitting that realisation;

Malcolm wrote:
Realization cannot be transmitted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2023 at 12:06 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
As far as I am concerned, it does not settle much, though. We do not know whether this is indeed the passage HH Dudjom Rinpoche cited -- and apparently the work by the second Bhavaviveka is incompletely preserved, and there are variants of it. Plus, of course, as you pointed out, the fact that this fragment may be garbled does not undermine HHDR's interpretation of Madhyamaka, which does not rest on Bhavavieka's passage.

Malcolm wrote:
It most certainly is the citation DR received, it’s not something he invented. This is very common. People who don’t actually work with Tibetan texts.

heart said:
You think Dudjom Rinpoche didn't work with Tibetan texts?

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not what I meant, but my post was incomplete. What I meant was that people who don’t work with Tibetan texts directly often do not understand patterns of textual citation in Tibetan traditions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2023 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
As far as I am concerned, it does not settle much, though. We do not know whether this is indeed the passage HH Dudjom Rinpoche cited -- and apparently the work by the second Bhavaviveka is incompletely preserved, and there are variants of it. Plus, of course, as you pointed out, the fact that this fragment may be garbled does not undermine HHDR's interpretation of Madhyamaka, which does not rest on Bhavavieka's passage.

Malcolm wrote:
It most certainly is the citation DR received, it’s not something he invented. This is very common. People who don’t actually work with Tibetan texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2023 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
ThreeVows said:
Generally, the essence of the third turning, I would say, is essentially pointing out the nature of mind properly.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are claiming there is direction introduction in sutra, then this is incorrect. If you are claiming the nature of mind is pointed out in the third turning but not in the second, this is also incorrect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2023 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Lingpupa said:
The suggestion that Dudjom’s arguments, which are developed with the use of citations from a number of sutras and other treatises, depend on one citation - a "citation" that is not even actually cited - and are therefore undermined, is thus inconsequential to the extent that it effectively vanishes. It shifts the issue from that of views about shentong, rangtong and so on to a question about a minute pebble in someone else's shoe - someone who is not even in the room.

ThreeVows said:
It is utterly comical to consider that a terton’s understanding and realization of the dharma has anything to do with such a quotation.

Malcolm wrote:
The Big Red Book is not a gter ma. And in it, there are many passages which are just carte blanche taken from earlier texts. This is quite normal in Tibetan scholastic treatises.

Claiming that the authority of a composition depends on someone being terton is ludicrous.  The process of revealing a terma is completely unlike that of composing a treatise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2023 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:



ThreeVows said:
Arguing with you is mostly a fool's game, but generally speaking I think Dudjom Rinpoche is more of an authority than you are.

Malcolm wrote:
It is quite unlikely Dudjom Rinpoche tracked down the exact source of the citation in Bhavya’s text I discuss below.  Certainly the translator could not find it. I did find it, and explained it here on thus forum ten years ago.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=184765#p184765

Lingpupa said:
The problem you have introduced here arises because you claim that Dudjom’s arguments are predicated on what you assert to be a mangled citation. I have neither the resources nor the skill to check whether your claim there makes sense, so, provisionally at least, let's assume that it does. But "predicated on"?

Referring to the Big Red Book, and specifically not to the translator's introduction where neither Bhavaviveka nor Bhavya are mentioned at all, but to Dudjom's actual contents on pp. 178-186, as far as I can see there is no citation from either Bhavaviveka or Bhavya at all. There is just a passing reference to him (excuse absence of diacritical marks here) along with, firstly Nagarjuna and Asanga, going on to to say "similarly explained by" Ratnakarasanti, Bhavya, Atisa et al.

The suggestion that Dudjom’s arguments, which are developed with the use of citations from a number of sutras and other treatises, depend on one citation - a "citation" that is not even actually cited - and are therefore undermined, is thus inconsequential to the extent that it effectively vanishes. It shifts the issue from that of views about shentong, rangtong and so on to a question about a minute pebble in someone else's shoe - someone who is not even in the room.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=184740#p184740

The citation is here. As I sai, it is mangled citation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2023 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dudjom’s arguments about an inner madhyanaka are not convincing, partially predicated as they are on a mangled citation from Bhavaviveka that does not mean what he takes it to mean

ThreeVows said:
Arguing with you is mostly a fool's game, but generally speaking I think Dudjom Rinpoche is more of an authority than you are.

Malcolm wrote:
It is quite unlikely Dudjom Rinpoche tracked down the exact source of the citation in Bhavya’s text I discuss below.  Certainly the translator could not find it. I did find it, and explained it here on thus forum ten years ago.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=184765#p184765


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2023 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


ThreeVows said:
The third turning proper is unsurpassed as it is the discernment of suchness.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed, so is the second, but the Buddha had to repeat himself because folks were not getting it. However not every sutra called “third turning” can be regarded as definitive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
ThreeVows said:
Prasangika Madhyamaka is the doorway to the realization of the path of seeing.

Kai lord said:
If that is the case, then Bhāvaviveka, Asanga, etc, wouldn't have attained Arya bodhisattvahood.

ThreeVows said:
No, I don't think that is necessarily the case. The essential point has to be assimilated, which can be done in a non-analytical manner as well, and one can still discuss other things. Dudjom Rinpoche for instance discusses how there is basically a lower and higher mode of understanding mind-only, and the intention of Asanga and Nagarjuna are aligned in truth. But I don't know that I have the capacity to discuss this precisely at this time, so I won't try overly hard.

Malcolm wrote:
Dudjom’s arguments about an inner madhyanaka are not convincing, partially predicated as they are on a mangled citation from Bhavaviveka that does not mean what he takes it to mean


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
ThreeVows said:
"... what is important here is understand... that when the sense fields are laid to rest in their ground in Longde's practice of Dzogchen, then this luminosity is not neutral. It's completely and perfectly divine. It is brilliant wonderment and bliss beyond any imagining.

If one practices Dzogchen without the proper foundation in Ngondro and Generation Phase and Completion Phase, then one's Dzogchen practice tends to become a kind of dry, aloof, untouchability. One may really become an asshole Dzogchenpa in that fashion, filled with the conceit of conceptual enlightenment. If you are actually practicing Dzogchen, then mind becomes utterly pure and radiant and one recognizes all of appearance as divine wonderment, unbearable in its blissful quality. When there is no concept to solidify and make the sense perception rigid and false, then its immediate moment enhances and always points to the true nature of perception, which is the luminosity of awareness. This is called rangbop in Tibetan. 'Rang' meaning the self-nature of awareness, 'bop' to settle in. And so, this is what Milarepa is saying in the line that says, "Awareness is luminous, in its depths it is bliss."


Malcolm wrote:
This is a quote from whom?

Needless to say, there is no need for two stages in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
ThreeVows said:
One other thing, at the risk of over-speaking:

Malcolm wrote:
This system of the natural great perfection's usual manner of evaluating freedom from extremes, and so on, is the same as prasaṅga madhyamaka.  The difference is that in madhyamaka an emptiness that is considered to be like empty space is made into the basis, whereas here, naked, originally pure vidyā—neither provable nor negatable—made into the basis. All the phenomena that arise from that [basis] are evaluated to be liberated from extremes, like space.

ThreeVows said:
Generally speaking I think you could say that prasangika madhyamaka is unsurpassed when it comes to this particular function. It is basically the terminal point of analysis of the mind. There is nothing beyond it, in terms of this analysis.

And yet, the vajrayana isn't entirely about 'the mind' in this sense.

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche says, basically, paraphrased from memory, that the 2nd turning is sort of half-relative, half-ultimate. I think the relative aspect is basically the orientation of the mind that culminates in the terminal approach of prasangika madhayamaka dialectics. This is like if you were in some big room, and there were many doors, and all of the doors got closed except for one, single door, the only door that actually led out of the room. Prasangika Madhyamaka is the doorway to the realization of the path of seeing. And the realization of suchness, which is the vajra, is that which is through that door. Vajrayana proper is founded on this. This is the ultimate aspect of the 2nd turning.

But anyway, in terms of 'evaluating freedom from extremes', there is nothing better. It is the great sharp sword that liberates.

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t find evaluating Dharma in terms of the three turnings to be useful—there is no agreement on it among different scholars. For example, as I read the sole brief passage the doctrine is based on, it defines the third as merely a reemphasis of the second.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 6:06 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Speaking strictly for myself, Buddhadharma us not a religion, philosophy, or belief. It’s direct knowledge of one’s own state.

Astus said:
But that 'direct knowledge of one’s own state' has a specific meaning to it, doesn't it?
So, even if what are commonly seen as supernatural elements and 'all the ancillary stuff' are put aside, there are the absorptions and liberation, each to be recognised as 'a footprint of the Realized One' ( https://suttacentral.net/mn24/en/sujato ), beyond the scope of those occupied by mundane matters and conventional thoughts. These could even be called religious experiences.

Malcolm wrote:
Your endless citations are quite unnecessary.

The three liberations are already complete in everyone. They simply need to be recognized.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: 48 vows of Amitabha Buddha
Content:
Mirror said:
Why is it so, that Pure Land (Amitabha) teachings and practices in Tibetan Buddhism don't talk about Amitabha's vows? Thank you very much for any replies!

Malcolm wrote:
Commentaries on these practices in Tibetan Buddhism do discuss these aspirations.

Other-power however is not really a thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
But isn’t that only because one is matching it up with what one already categorizes as “religion”?
And what are the components of that? Temples? Statues? Candles? Celestial beings?

Astus said:
Yes, Buddhism fits the category of religion because it looks like the other things that are called religions.

Malcolm wrote:
Topological arguments are very weak.  Communism also looks like a religion. So does the military in every country. Government processes of legislation look like religions too, with rituals, ceremonies, and unfounded beliefs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism can be a philosophy, or a science, or a religion. It really depends on who you are and what your expectations are. For example, HHDL said, "Buddhism is more than a religion. It is a science of the mind."

Astus said:
That's playing with labels, which is fine, since they stand for various ideas and feelings depending on the person who uses them.

Malcolm wrote:
You just stated, in a very prolix fashion, what I just said. Talk about playing with labels. In any case. Speaking strictly for myself, Buddhadharma us not a religion, philosophy, or belief. It’s direct knowledge of one’s own state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
I don't know enough about these traditions to comment. I'd just suggest that the fanatical obsession of the rangtongpas with non-affirming negations is a largely Tibetan thing and views were more https://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Acquired-Buddhist-Studies-Monographs/dp/1845539974 as Buddhism moved east into Asia.

Malcolm wrote:
Ini Dzogchen, as explained by Rongzom, a direct negation is something used to refute an opponent's position without having a position to support. An implicative negation is used to defend one's position.

Neither Dzogchen nor classical Madhyamaka (free from the Tibetan novelties of Dolbupa, Tsongkhapa, and so on) have a position to defend.

ThreeVows said:
This seems slightly tricky, though. Longchenpa for instance does say that prasangika madhyamaka is the highest dialectical approach, and indeed this would be the case there. But he also says that Vajrayana is superior, and there are quite a number of particular teachings given within Vajrayana, including things like realizing all phenomena as the mandala of the deity, etc. And of course many things are indeed said within Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not that tricky. In chapter 8 of the Treasury of Citations, he stated:

This system of the natural great perfection's usual manner of evaluating freedom from extremes, and so on, is the same as prasaṅga madhyamaka.  The difference is that in madhyamaka an emptiness that is considered to be like empty space is made into the basis, whereas here, naked, originally pure vidyā—neither provable nor negatable—made into the basis. All the phenomena that arise from that [basis] are evaluated to be liberated from extremes, like space.



ThreeVows said:
Longchenpa for instance says,
All manifest forms are the mandala, or display, of enlightened form as an aspect of naturally occuring timeless awareness. All sounds and voices are the mandala of enlightened speech. Ordinary consciousness and the vast range of nonconceptual timeless awareness arise naturally as nothing more than the display of the supreme mandala of enlightened mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Where does he say this is a mandala of deities?

ThreeVows said:
None of this, of course, contradicts madhyamaka properly understood. But I don't think it's necessarily fair to imply or say that there is nothing more than non-implicative negations.

Malcolm wrote:
It is quite fair to say so, since the understanding of a direct negation in Dzogchen is not understood in the same way as in say, Tsongkhapa. For Tsongkhapa, the direct negation of inherent existence alone, is the example ultimate. Where as we see above, Dzogchen and Prasanga are alike in negating all four extremes both in the relative and the ultimate without positing something in their place [the middle is also directly negated as well]. Longchepa's statement above (naked, originally pure vidyā—neither provable nor negatable—made into the basis) is an echo of Rongzom's chapter four of Intro to Mahāyāna Systems, devoted to proving that while Dzogchen cannot be proven through reasoning, neither can it be negated through reasoning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
I don't know enough about these traditions to comment. I'd just suggest that the fanatical obsession of the rangtongpas with non-affirming negations is a largely Tibetan thing and views were more https://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Acquired-Buddhist-Studies-Monographs/dp/1845539974 as Buddhism moved east into Asia.

Malcolm wrote:
Ini Dzogchen, as explained by Rongzom, a direct negation is something used to refute an opponent's position without having a position to support. An implicative negation is used to defend one's position.

Neither Dzogchen nor classical Madhyamaka (free from the Tibetan novelties of Dolbupa, Tsongkhapa, and so on) have a position to defend.
BTW, all your Kalacakra business, as well as Dolbupa's polemics about Dzogche are actually off topic for a topic about Nyingma view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 2:36 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


OdeKirk said:
Thank you! Where can I read more about these arguments? Are they in an open text? I am not sure I quite follow this one, wouldn't it be the same experience either way, since appearances still manifest in the mind with color/shape/other imputed characteristics, even with phenomena being outside of the mind(after all, the phenomena outside didn't have those characteristics either)? It seems like only the cause of the appearances are different(apparent outer phenomena vs traces from the alaya).

Malcolm wrote:
Appearances and apparent objects are not the same thing.

OdeKirk said:
Also, in this example, the fact that it is a liquid substance is a characteristic, and the position of the liquid substance is also a characteristic, both in space and time. What is the outer phenomena contributing to the experience of the sentient beings in this case, and how can sentient beings even end up look at the same substance?

Malcolm wrote:
The four elements, in this case, water.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
I don't know enough about these traditions to comment. I'd just suggest that the fanatical obsession of the rangtongpas with non-affirming negations is a largely Tibetan thing and views were more https://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Acquired-Buddhist-Studies-Monographs/dp/1845539974 as Buddhism moved east into Asia.

Malcolm wrote:
Ini Dzogchen, as explained by Rongzom, a direct negation is something used to refute an opponent's position without having a position to support. An implicative negation is used to defend one's position.

Neither Dzogchen nor classical Madhyamaka (free from the Tibetan novelties of Dolbupa, Tsongkhapa, and so on) have a position to defend.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2023 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
When you succeed in dissolving the outer-inner world, you experience an entirely different realm of appearances that are not samsaric, but are the divine mandala. This is the very basic idea of śūnyatā-bimba, the forms of emptiness seen during Kālacakra practice. They are emptiness manifesting as a non-conceptual perceptual appearance.

Malcolm wrote:
This is totally dualistic, but it is characteristic of the path of transformation, thinking that one appearance is good and another appearance is bad. Emptiness always manifests as a directly perceived appearance since everything is empty, arises from emptiness, and disappears back into emptiness.

stong gzugs said:
Dzogchen leaves open an internal-vs.-external duality that Kālacakra completely dismantles.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in reality, only conventionally, from the point of view of dualistic vision. In reality, everything is just the same state of bodhicitta. Kathog Dorje Gyaltsen writes:

Bodhicitta self-appears as everything, manifesting as totally complete in the distinct particles in space and in the smallest worms on up, just like the sun, moon and stars arise in a placid ocean.

As the All-Creating King States:

Oh great hero, understand this nature of mine!
I am the nature of bodhicitta.
Bodhicitta is the all-creating king. 
The nature of the all-creating king is body, speech, and mind.
There isn’t a single thing body, speech, and mind do not do.
All that is done by the bodies, speech, and minds of the buddhas of the three times
and also the bodies, voices, and minds of the sentient beings of three realms,
are done by my body, speech, and mind, the all-creating king. 
Everything included in appearance and existence, the universe and inhabitants,
is done by my body, speech, and mind, the all-creating king
in the state of dharmatā’s unfabricated suchness.

Longchenpa explains:

"Here, it is asserted [that the outer universe] arises from the potential grasping at a self in the state of bodhicitta. Other than being mere play of the potential from the time it arises, there isn’t any inside or outside; {308} clearly apparent nonexistents are asserted to be mere appearances of dependently originated apparent conditions of phenomena, which are not established as mind or as other than mind.


stong gzugs said:
Kālacakra completely dismantles the notion that there is an internal channel system and an external world, because it shows how both are mistaken appearances of a singular Kālacakra mandala.

Malcolm wrote:
See above. In Dzogchen there are basically two phases: the basis arises as the universe and beings under the influence of avidyā and the universe and beings arise as the basis under the influence of vidyā. That's it. The String of Pearls Tantra states:

The universe and inhabitants have always been empty,
the ultimate endowed with the form of the relative.
One does not need to map anything onto anything. The world and beings just as they are, is already perfect and required no purification at all.
This is why Dölpopa accuses people like you of claiming that the shell is actually white, even though you haven't cured the jaundice.
Jaundice is also perfect and does not need to be removed. Buddhahood in this Life states:

If it is objected, “If afflictions are liberated into dharmatā without antidotes, there is no need for purification on the path. Otherwise, liberation would require no effort,” for what reason would those who do not understand be liberated? Asserting that those who understand are liberated merely by recognizing concepts as dharmatā is the fruit of one’s wishes. As such, in order to recognize that concepts are dharmatā, the intimate instructions of the guru are important.
But I'm glad you're now acknowledging that gzhanstong comes from these Indian texts.
It comes from one Tibetan's understanding of the Maitreyan corpus. Whether his understanding is correct is another matter, and is quite debatable. For example, like the debate over whether Tsongkhapa understood Prasanga perfectly. He also claimed his understanding derived from his profound experience of meditation.
All the buddha qualities are fully formed. BUT this doesn't mean that they will already be expressed, because there are defilments/obscurations that need to be removed.
This is incoherent. If they are fully formed, they should be functional whether or not there are obscurations. Otherwise, you are arguing that obscurations are more powerful than buddha qualities, an argument that natsuke raised, when the opposite should be true.
This is, phenomenologically, incredibly accurate to at least my experience of practice. When meditation practice is going well, and the winds and mind still
"When meditation practice is going well..."

For as long as mind is employed as the path, when effort is made in the practice of meditating a calm mind, it will exist. When the effort is dropped, [the calm mind] will perish— that is its actual nature. For as long as the pristine consciousness of vidyā is employed as the path, since it abides in the stream of naturally occurring concentration, qualities will arise naturally, and those will be present at all times without any possibility of being separate from them.

-- Longchenpa

The buddhahood that exists as the ground is like a wish-fulfilling jewel covered by the mud of the stains. Cleansing it with the stream of the view, meditation, and conduct causes the result of the dharmakāya reality body endowed with twofold purity, which is like the jewel without stains, to actualize, and everything meaningful for oneself and others is spontaneously present ...
Again, this is just the error of asserting the basis (ground) is naturally perfected (spontaneously present).

The String of Pearls Commentary notes:

Since the position that the basis is naturally perfected is flawed, the basis is impossible. If the cause is asserted to be naturally perfected, the basis will be ineffective. Since the basis is given the name “cause,” the expression itself is defective. In that case, if it is deemed established, is the result established in that cause or not? If it is deemed established, one will not be able to avoid the fault that the result will possess a contradiction.

What if sometimes [the basis] is a cause in which the result is also established? Since the cause is established from the
result, there is (1) the fault of an infinite regress and (2) the unavoidable fault that the cause and the result are the same. If it is asserted [that the cause and the result] are the same, the expression, “the cause and result of karma,” will be defective.

If it is asserted that the cause and result are different, the assertion that the cause is naturally perfected is defective. If that cause is established in the result, one cannot reject the consequence that the result is the cause. Therefore, since the result cannot be designated as the cause, the connection of the cause and the result should be understood from investigating them—causes generate results, but causes are not generated from results.

Alternatively, if it is asserted that everything is naturally perfected from everything, since one will not be able to refute what has not been asserted, one will not be able to prove one’s own assertion. Therefore, there is no purpose in [asserting the basis is] naturally perfected.

Since proving a favorable position and disproving an unfavorable position makes a naturally perfected basis one-sided, the assertion of a naturally perfected basis is defective. 

Suppose that the naturally perfected basis is stated to be nondual. If the cause, result, and so on are nondual, the assertion
of a naturally perfected basis is defective. Saṃsāra and nirvāṇa are also rendered false. Further, reasoning negates the absence of a result at the time of a naturally perfected cause and so on. There are more reasonings to be elaborated with respect to that, but they will not be elaborated here.


While the ground buddhahood of the dharmakāya reality body and the resultant buddhahood of the dharmakāya reality body have not the slightest difference in essence, they are distinguished as ground and result by means of the presence or absence of incidental stains. This is like referring to the space of the sky in situations when it is free or not free of clouds and so forth.
You might imagine the following is similar, but it isn''t. There is just a similarity in terms, but not meaning. Longchenpa writes in the Lama Yangthig:

When one has attained proficiency in the self-recognition of one’s great naturally perfected primordial buddhahood of vidyā which exists within oneself, after afflictions have become self-cleansed and self-purified, the state of the stable clarity of one’s naked vidyā (in terms of being free from the modifications of hope and fear) is like the sun free from clouds, or like delusion never being conceived within one’s mind. Since one does not regress, it is similar with the first contact of impurity. It is like the marking nut of the bse tree, or, is like attaining one’s independence having taken one’s own seat without moving like the coronation of a prince.

However, there is no dharmakāya in the result. Hence your language is incoherent and belongs to lower vehicles. In the commentary to the Tantra Without Syllables it is pointed out that:

The three kāyas and the five pristine consciousnesses are not the result, but the path.

The difference between your view and the view of Dzogchen is that faults themselves are the qualities and the qualities are the faults. Again at time of the basis rising up out of the basis:

In the unceasing potential of the qualities of the source (natural perfection), the qualities transformed into faults from the essence forming as the kāyas, the nature [31a] forming as light, and compassion forming as rays.

And when the universe and beings arise as the basis:

Furthermore, purity arises as the door of pristine consciousness through the aspect of naturally perfected qualities. Impurity appears as delusion when it seems to arise as the mode of entering samara. When the mode of reversing delusion seems to arise, once there is liberation into purity that exists without abandoning delusion, there is buddhahood.
Buddhahood is taught to be the enlightened body of primordial awareness, and the incidental impurities are taught to be the groups of consciousness.
Yes, which means you have a total duality here since these are considered to be substantially different.

In Dzogchen, ye shes is regarded as the being the basis for sems. While sems is regarded as a obscuration to be given up, it is not regarded as a substantially different entity since it arises out of the  potential (rtsal) of ye shes, manifesting as play (rol pa, dualism).  Longchenpa points out:

In addition, all phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own...

The essence of mind is the radiance of vidyā which is mounted on the vāyu. The essence of vidyā is intrinsically clear without vāyu (the pristine consciousness vāyu of purified karmavāyu free from coming and going).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Therefore, Buddhadharma cannot really be called a religion, since one never depends on external causes to remove internal suffering.

Astus said:
The dharma, the principle, the law is timeless and independent of the presence of a buddha. But Buddhism, the doctrine and discipline, that exists temporarily and dependently, and that is a system - as it is and as it has been - that can be called a religion rather than a philosophy or a science.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism can be a philosophy, or a science, or a religion. It really depends on who you are and what your expectations are. For example, HHDL said, "Buddhism is more than a religion. It is a science of the mind."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:


Astus said:
Philosophies usually don't have temples, clergy, holidays, rituals, etc.,

Malcolm wrote:
Marxism.

Astus said:
but religions often have quite complex philosophies, usually called theology. Let's not forget that the Buddha taught not only the Dharma but also the Vinaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Then, as I pointed out already, Buddhism is also a philosophy, one that can be followed with minimal religious trappings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadharma cannot really be called a religion, since one never depends on external causes to remove internal suffering.

PadmaVonSamba said:
This is a very good point to consider.
Even when we say “I take refuge in the Buddha”, that whole process can never exceed the limits of what one imagines a Buddha is or represents.

Hence the Heart Sutra mantra ‘gone, gone, gone beyond’ which I think suggests thinking outside of even thinking outside the box.

Malcolm wrote:
The answer is that Buddhism has elements that are religious, elements that are philosophical, elements that are contemplative, elements that are cultural, elements that are ethical, and so on, and people become involved in Buddhadharma because of interest in all, several or one of these elements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:


Astus said:
I’ve explained the teaching in all these different ways. This being so, you can expect that those who don’t concede, approve, or agree with what has been well spoken will argue, quarrel, and fight, continually wounding each other with barbed words.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is largely the history of sectarian literature.

Astus said:
The one common factor we can find among all Buddhist schools, however, is the idea that suffering is caused by karma, and that karma is caused by affliction, and in Mahāyāna, the idea that we have an intrinsic moral obligation to benefit others apart from ourselves.

Malcolm wrote:
Add to that the ending of suffering by the elimination of afflictions, and the threefold training with the thirty-seven qualities for awakening as the way to do that, and we have the four noble truths.[/quote]

An intelligent person can infer that if anger or desire or ignorance is causing them suffering, to abandon those. That's all they need to do.

Astus said:
But you don't need to accept rebirth to cease grasping at aggregates as a self.
Right, the initial faith that is required is trusting the Buddha, because 'If you don’t give rise to faith, you won’t approach a teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
Clearly one does not need a teacher, example, pratyekabuddhas. And you do not need a teacher to tell you are suffering, anymore than you need a doctor to tell you that you are ill. In both cases one discovers one has a problem, and then one seeks a remedy. But this is not necessarily a religious quest, actually, it is just a change in attitude that results in the cessation of suffering. Therefore, Buddhadharma cannot really be called a religion, since one never depends on external causes to remove internal suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 7:32 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...the distinction between sems and ye shes.

yagmort said:
in tibetan, what is the exact meaning of sems?
and what is the difference between sems and blo?
when i asked, tibetans touch the chest when saying sems, and touch the head when saying blo, what they say is that "sem is more like soul, heart" while "lo is reasoning/rational mind", which is confusing because i thought that sem is rational mind.

Malcolm wrote:
In dzogchen, sems is a catch all term for the eight consciousnesses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 7:11 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:



OdeKirk said:
If it is concise enough, could you please explain why Longchenpa rejects this?

Malcolm wrote:
Outer phenomena have their own dependent origination and should be viewed in light of the eight examples of illusion, according to Longchenpa.

OdeKirk said:
Thank you, is this explained further in Finding Rest in Illusion (I assume those are the 8 examples you are talking about?)?. The question I have on my mind is this - Since all phenomena are empty of any distinguishing characteristics, how would it be possible for sentient beings to agree on any common outer phenomena, unless through a shared karmic perspective, in which case isn't it just Yogacara? What use is there in positing the outer phenomena when you can skip to the shared karmic perspective directly?

Also a side note, do you know need lung for Finding Rest in Illusion? I have pointing out instructions from multiple teachers in case that is necessary.

Malcolm wrote:
A shared karmic perspective does not negate the liquid substance that is perceived differently in the six lokas. Otherwise, many faults ensue, such as the mind having color and shape, etc. Phenomena are ultimately devoid of characteristics, but in Dzogchen teachings, the view of conventionality in general is the same as Prasanga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 10:39 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


ThreeVows said:
So if it's said, "the ultimate is empty of relative phenomena", it seems to me that this basically means that as Longchenpa says above, "When the turbidity of the mind [sems] and mental factors [sems byung] subsides, luminous primordial wisdom, the nature of the mind, arises from within". He says,



Is not the 'relative' essentially that which is discerned/apprehended by the mind/mental factors? And is that not, ultimately, non-existent?

Malcolm wrote:
No, since Dzogchen does not negate outer phenomena. The subsiding of mind and mental factors has nothing to do with outer phenomena, unless you take the view that outer phenomena are nothing other than mind and mental factors, a perspective Longchenpa absolutely rejects.

OdeKirk said:
If it is concise enough, could you please explain why Longchenpa rejects this?

Malcolm wrote:
Outer phenomena have their own dependent origination and should be viewed in light of the eight examples of illusion, according to Longchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 8:29 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


ThreeVows said:
So if it's said, "the ultimate is empty of relative phenomena", it seems to me that this basically means that as Longchenpa says above, "When the turbidity of the mind [sems] and mental factors [sems byung] subsides, luminous primordial wisdom, the nature of the mind, arises from within". He says,
when the self-cognizing primordial wisdom is wrapped in the webs of defilement caused by the illusion of duality, it is called 'mind'. For it consists in the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. Liberation from this is called buddhahood. For even though (in that state) an object is known, there is a freedom from duality, as implied in detecting cognition and discernment.
Is not the 'relative' essentially that which is discerned/apprehended by the mind/mental factors? And is that not, ultimately, non-existent?

Malcolm wrote:
No, since Dzogchen does not negate outer phenomena. The subsiding of mind and mental factors has nothing to do with outer phenomena, unless you take the view that outer phenomena are nothing other than mind and mental factors, a perspective Longchenpa absolutely rejects.

To say the ultimate is empty of relative phenomena is to claim there is an ultimate which exists outside phenomena, it’s akin to claiming that wetness exists separately from water or heat from fire. In fact no ultimate can be established apart from relative phenomena at all, since the ultimate is just seeing the suchness of phenomena, as Candrakirti states, all things have two natures, one seen correctly, the other not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 6:10 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
You appear to have had some intellectual fun

Malcolm wrote:
That’s what forums are for. They certainly aren’t places where people ought to for anything other than opinions and concepts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Back from a short retreat and catching up on things. Always glad to chat gzhanstong with you, Malcolm. Maybe one day you'll come around to the definitive view of the Buddha

Malcolm wrote:
Unlikely, since I don't don't favor crypto-Hindu views.



stong gzugs said:
You've repeatedly attempted to assert that gzhanstong comes from an analysis of tenets, is based on the merging of the two truths and three natures, etc. I've repeatedly corrected you on this.

Malcolm wrote:
You've repeated yourself, but you are not correct.

stong gzugs said:
Not sure why you keep repeating it when it's so easily debunked? We know the exact moment that Dölpopa discovered the gzhanstong view:

Malcolm wrote:
It is not his discovery, it is the tradition of Tsan Khawo che. This is why it is listed as such by Kunga Drochok in his One Hundred Instructions of Jonang.

stong gzugs said:
As I've also https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=652081&hilit=candrakirti#p652081 you keep pretending that Candrakirti is the definitive way to understand mādhyamaka.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not pretending this is so, it is so.

stong gzugs said:
(And Tārānatha already countered these qualms about the mapping of the three turnings and two truths in light of the Bṛhatṭīkā

Malcolm wrote:
Which is quite late.

Candrakirti's Madhyamakāvatāra said:
(Although, funny enough, Dölpopa tracked down an instance where Candrakirti teaches basic gzhanstong below.)
Whether buddhas arise or they do not,
In reality, the emptiness of nature,
Of all real things has been proclaimed
As emptiness of the reality of “other.”
The true, pure ultimate reality as well as suchness
Is the emptiness of other things ...
“Other” reality is the supreme arising of suchness (dharmata).
This, arising as supreme, is eternal existence.

Malcolm wrote:
Did you look and see how Candrakīrti describes this?

He explains the passage as follows: "Extrinsic existence (gzhan gyi dngos po, parabhāva) is the supreme truth. It is supreme because it always exists. As it is one in aspect, since extrinsic existence is the apogee of gnosis, it is the existence (bhāva) of realization. That is the emptiness of suchness. Again, having an outside existence is to extrinsically exist. Because of transcending samsara, so-called "extrinsic existence" is the reality limit. Since it is immutable, the meaning is that the emptiness of the suchness that is empty of characteristics is the emptiness of extrinsic existence."

So here, what is being described as outside, or extrinsic to, samsara is the gnosis, the emptiness of suchness, it's emptiness of characteristics. It certainly doesn't say anything at all about truly existing, ultimate buddha qualities, which would be characteristics.

All Candrakirti is saying here is just what Nāgārjuna says in the MMK 18:9-12

The characteristic of suchness. 
cannot be known from another, is peace,
free from all proliferation,
nonconceptual, and without differentiation. 


Something produced dependent on another
is not the same as the latter
nor is it other, 
therefore, it is neither permanent nor annihilated. 

The ambrosial teachings of
the buddhas, the protectors of the world,
is that there is neither sameness nor difference, 
permanence nor annihilation. 

Though a perfect buddha has not yet to arise,
and the śrāvakas are no more,
the gnosis of pratyekabuddhas 
will arise without the teacher.


But even gzhan stong pas know that reality is actually free from all extremes, despite their neurotic anxiety about buddha-qualities.


Reality is free from extremes when we meditate, but in everyday post-equipoise conversation, we don't denigrate it as inherently empty unlike you rangtongpas do.
I am not a rang stong pa. There is no such thing:

Again, Nagārjuna:

If there were something that was a little not empty, there would something to be empty.
However, as there is nothing that is not empty, where is there something to be empty?
Again, if you lack an ability to explain in post-meditation how kungzhi yeshe and the buddhas are not "empty" in the same way that a chariot is empty...
Chariots are empty of minds. Sentient beings are not empty of minds. Therefore, they can become buddhas and chariots cannot. Therefore, chariots and sentient beings are not the same and are not empty in the same way. This should be obvious.

However, those who argue that there is a blank ultimate of nonexistence are the gzhan stong pa, who assert relative phenomena do not exist at all in the perfected nature (gzhan stong), because they claim the perfected is empty of both the imputed and dependent natures (rang stong).
Again, simply false. There is no "blank ultimate of non-existence," because the ultimate is empty of relative phenomena,
You are asserting that the ultimate nature of relative things is a nonexistence, an utter void (rang stong). This far worse that Geluk extreme of asserting that relative phenonena are merely empty of the true existence that is inherent existence. You don't even give relative things mere existence, like they do. Worse, you split the two truths in half. It is impossible for you to appreciate the inseparability of samsara and nirvana.
Pratyahāra, sense withdrawal, is just resting in a nonconceptual mind.
No. You don't have oral instructions and don't seem to understand the practice. At best, you're confusing pratyahāra with the unique preliminary of wensum. Tārānatha gives the definition of pratyahāra as withdrawing the mind from ordinary experiences to then engage with the appearances of primordial wisdom. A major barrier in your understanding of Kālacakra is that you don't grok Dölpopa's distinction between Mādhyamaka without Appearance (snang med dbu ma) and Mādhyamaka with Appearance (snang bcas dbu ma).
This just shows you have not been paying attention at all. Appearances and emptiness are never separate, and I never asserted they were. You are like a man shouting in an empty valley, who thinks they arguing with someone else, when they are just debating with their own echo.
.
Longchenpo points out in his Treasury of Citations:

In brief, all meditations with and without support are included.

Tārānatha makes https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=650517&hilit=T%C4%81ranatha%27s+Critique+of+Dzogchen#p650517 of other practice systems (including Dzogchen) not being the actual completion stage, but only nominal, because they only address the relative bindus and nadis.
This just means Taranatha had no understanding of Dzogchen at all and never received any teaching on it.

Your claim is quite uncertain. Dudjom Rinpoche writes in the Big Red Book, pg. 301:
the all-knowing Longchen Drimé Öser[/u] —
If you'd been following along, you would know that Longchenpa explicitly rejects gzhan stong. So it is said by Naropa:

The single definitive means is the truth of the nucleus.
The four successive seals and the six-limbed yoga,
the diverse vehicles of thought,
have resorted to the provisional and not the definitive, etc.,[/i]
Got a translated source that provides the fuller context around this quote? Naropa was famously a Kālacakra yogin, and key promoter of the system, so the odds that he denigrated it in the way this quote implies are nil.
It's from a text called the Ratnaprabhā-nāma (Toh. 1342). In this text, Naropa completely rejects a path based on causes and results, such as creation and completion stage. Since it is also found in the Kagyu Mahamudra collections, I am sure Karl B will have a complete translation of it.

The body, speech, and mind of the pure victor
is produced from the essential meaning without striving.
In the meaning of bodhicitta, 
the single definitive vehicle is the essential meaning,
but the four grades of mudras, the sadāṅgayoga, 
the various vehicles of thought,
are provisional, not definitive. 
There is no high or low in the essence,
aspiration and engaged [bodhicitta] are exhausted as conceptual thoughts, 
The unique mind essence is free from extremes, 
different results do not exist, there is no path,
the yoga of noncontrivance is the perfect path.
The nonabiding nature is the same in the mind,
arriving at the end without traveling is a result?
Free from cause and condition, without arising and perishing,
clear as the self-originated essence from the beginning. 
However the six realms appear 
and the nature of nirvana
are inseparable, the same in the self-originated mind.
The mental concepts of the six realms
and the cognizance of intrinsically clear gnosis
are no different, the same in the essence...etc.
if the key points such as the posture of the body, and so on, for nonconceptual mind are dropped, [that nonconceptual mind] will perish, and also [vidyā] will not be exposed nakedly. Nonconceptual vidyā is the complete opposite of that.[/i]
Again, you lack oral instructions, so you're misapplying critiques onto Kālacakra that don't apply to it. The second yoga of Kālacakra already has pointers on recognizing everyday objects that seem solid as made of empty forms. It's hard to explain, but you ever do open-eye meditation and see how everyday objects have a sort of glimmering halo of light around them? It's kind of like that, except it's not just a ring outside the objects, but the entire object itself. So nothing stops once you exit meditation. You just start seeing, hearing, etc. everything as these luminous empty forms and, as you get further along, the experience organizes itself into a mandala-like pattern. That's why Dölpopa says that Mādhyamaka with appearances is the highest teaching, because we can go beyond conventional appearances altogether, and see everything as a divine mandala.
There is no need to see everything as a divine mandala. There is no need to go beyond conventional appearances. That's just a contrivance of faces and hands which does not go beyond the view of mahāyoga.

Further, Madhyamaka itself is just a deviation, as the Soaring Garuda points out:

Since phenomena and nonphenomena have always been merged and are inseparable,
there is no further need to explain an “ultimate phenomenon.

For example, Mañjuśrīmitra states:

Therefore, because awakening and nonawakening are the same in terms of absence of characteristics, there is nothing to accept or reject.
In accordance with that meaning, all those explanations 
of the nominal ultimate, the absence of arising and ceasing, sameness, 
nonduality, beyond thought, emptiness, the dharmadhātu, 
freedom from expression and convention, and so on are neither ultimate nor relative.
If it is said, “This is the path in accordance with the ultimate,” that is relative.

What more is there to say?
Rongzompa almost gets there. But the key distinction is that Dzogchen as far as I've seen
Then you have not been looking.

Dzogchen asserts that appearances of the universe are just the five lights of pristine consciousness perceived incorrectly. This is why there is no point in the creation and completion stage, from a Dzogchen point of view, unless someone needs this as a temporary crutch.
it emphasizes instead how those external things appear in the inner mirror of our individual awareness, arguing how those appearances in the mirror arise from our body. But in Kālacakra, we do have something to say beyond Nagarjuna because we see that there are patterns that link microcosm and macrocosm, and we can actually work with these patterns. So instead of just looking at the external world and saying, oh it's all inherently empty,
You clearly don't understand Dzogchen.
we identify those specific patterns in the external world that map onto the internal world, and then through the sadangayoga, we see that this entire conventional reality with internal and external correspondence patterns are actually just sort of weak echoes of a non-dual mandala that is other-empty. "As in the external, so in the internal, as in the internal so in the other." Dölpopa explains this in Mountain Dharma.
This is way too intellectual, contrived, and full of effort.

One does not need to map anything onto anything. The world and beings just as they are, is already perfect and required no purification at all. As it says in the Soaring Garuda:

Since there is no object to attain, there is nothing other than the three realms.

A commentary states:

Because the three realms themselves have attained buddhahood already in the essence of natural perfection, it is ascertained that a result generated by a cause is not a separate object to be attained.

And further, from the same text:

In order to demonstrate the deviations of the stages:

"Even relying on the tenth bhumi is an obstruction to awakening."

The seeking that relies on the path method of the tenth bhumi of the causal bodhisattvas and the wish to attain by relying on the tenth stage of outer, inner and secret secret mantra does not see the place that is free from being traversed. 

"The extremely rapid pristine consciousness is free from all thoughts."

That being the case, because the self-originated pristine consciousness, the basis of everything, is free from gradual progression, it is more rapid because of emphasizing nonprogression through mere seeing. Since that is free from all goal-oriented apprehension of objects and apprehending subjects, it is very special because there is no obscuration to purify.
Anyway, if mere acceptance of tathagatagarbha makes one a gzhan stong pa, then everyone is a gzhan stong pa.
Gzhanstong says that: there is kun gzhi ye shes that is beyond momentariness and not dependently originated (unlike the kun gzhi rnam shes), within which all of samsara and nirvana manifest (making it empty of them), and is the source of all the buddha qualities.
Dzogchen says, all samsara and nirvana are nothing other than self-originated pristine consciousness, and this is also not established, being free from a basis or a root.
In terms of the buddha qualities, it says the buddha qualities are fully formed and don't need to be created anew, only need to be recognized and manifested, which is what the path is for.
This is the error of asserting the basis is lhun grub. It violates cause and effect, which is why gzhan stong and Dzogchen are not compatible. When it is said that the kāyas and wisdoms exist in the basis, it simply means they exist as potentials, not matured.
The critique that saying the buddha qualities are already fully formed invalidates the need for a path has already been addressed by Dölpopa in Mountain Dharma.
Not satisfactorily, which is why Longchenpa explictly rejects the gzhan stong view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: Traditional Soto approach clarification
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am not really qualified to comment on Zen, one way or other. However, this passage by Dogen really strikes me as a beautiful expression of realization, right up there with some of Longchenpa's writings:

BUDDHA DHARMA CANNOT be known by a person. For this reason, since olden times no ordinary person has realized buddha dharma; no practitioner of the Lesser Vehicles has mastered buddha dharma. Because it is realized by buddhas alone, it is said [in the Lotus Sutra], “Only a buddha and a buddha can thoroughly master it.” 

When you realize buddha dharma, you do not think, “This is realization just as I expected.” Even if you think so, realization inevitably differs from your expectation. Realization is not like your conception of it. Accordingly, realization cannot take place as previously conceived. When you realize buddha dharma, you do not consider how realization came about. Reflect on this: what you think one way or another before realization is not a help for realization. 

Although realization is not like any of the thoughts preceding it, this is not because such thoughts were actually bad and could not be realization. Past thoughts in themselves were already realization. But since you were seeking elsewhere, you thought and said that thoughts cannot be realization. 

However, it is worth noticing that what you think one way or another is not a help for realization. For this reason, you become cautious not to be small-minded. Indeed, if realization came forth by the power of your prior thoughts, it would not be trustworthy. 

Realization does not depend on thoughts, but comes forth far beyond them; realization is helped only by the power of realization itself. Know that then there is no delusion, and there is no realization.
Chp. 92, Treasury of the True Dharma Eye (pp. 1176-1177). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
yagmort said:
so how one "discovers" this samten? looks like it is something that "bypass" shamatha without support? is it something like sem vs yeshe distinction?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is based precisely on the distinction between sems and ye shes.

The most direct way to discover this stage of contemplation is to receive the rig pa'i rtsal dbang, and apply semzins and rushan on the basis of having received the rig pa'i rtsal dbang.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Mahāmegha on Bodhisattva Devadatta
Content:
ThreeVows said:
From 84000: https://read.84000.co/translation/toh232.html

Excerpts about Devadatta:
From now on, great brahmin, without saying such things, consider the following words and no others. Devadatta, the group of six monks, and their followers are grateful to the Tathāgata. Devadatta is one who inspires supreme joy. Devadatta loves the family of the Tathāgata. Devadatta is the culmination of the Tathāgata’s activities. Devadatta is a great being who demonstrates the Tathāgata’s virtuous qualities. Devadatta, the group of six monks, and their followers completely establish tens of millions of sentient beings in meritorious behavior. Great brahmin, no sentient beings are capable of drawing the blood of a tathāgata, foe- destroyer, complete and perfect buddha. The Tathāgata’s body should be viewed as being like a tree’s shadow; you should see it as an expedient means.

Great brahmin, even trillions of māras could not divide the saṅgha. This schism within the saṅgha should be viewed as an expedient means. Devadatta and the group of six monks do not create schism among the saṅgha. Devadatta and the group of six monks represent the Śākya family. They do not conduct themselves in such a way as to be born as animals or among ordinary people. Having been born in the Śākya family and gone forth to renunciation at the feet of the Tathāgata, what need is there to say that they do not engage in such actions? The idea is unfounded. Devadatta and the group of six monks act very kindly. Devadatta does not merely wear the saffron-colored robes. Devadatta is not a famished bald- head. Devadatta and the group of six monks are bound by the pratimokṣa vows. Devadatta is not determined to do evil. Devadatta does not desire to do evil. Devadatta and the group of six monks should be known as monks representing the Tathāgata’s expedient means. All bodhisattvas play within the hell realms by means of the superknowledges. This should be seen as the domain of bodhisattvas. Devadatta will not go to the hell realms.

Great brahmin, you should rejoice in Devadatta as the bodhisattva mahāsattva named Mahākapila, who, after giving instruction, was surrounded by a group of six bodhisattvas.

The Bhagavān then replied to the bodhisattva Great Cloud Essence, “Excellent, Great Cloud Essence, excellent! So it is. Great Cloud Essence, in order to eradicate the doubts of all outsider sentient beings, you have given this excellent explanation. On the basis of the Tathāgata’s concealed speech, you have explained the domain of the Tathāgata—which is not the same as that of the śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas—and the greatness of Devadatta’s virtuous qualities. Excellent, excellent! Great Cloud Essence.

Malcolm wrote:
Classic Mahāyāna gaslighting. No wonder the śrāvakas were convinced Mahāyānis were insane.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No. Meditation (bsgoms) means maintaining an object in a one-pointed mind, for example, as in the one-pointedness of the four yogas of mahāmudra. The limitation of this approach, according to Longchenpa and ChNN, is that when one ends the session, the calm state brought about by one-pointed meditation also ceases.

yagmort said:
1. what gripes does Dzogchen have with one-pointedness?
also, typical Mahamudra instruction of "mind observes the mind" keeps the one-pointedness, but drops an object,

Malcolm wrote:
This is still an object of mind, considered to be śamatha without support. So the same objection applies.

yagmort said:
2. why do you apply "maintaining an object in a one-pointed mind" to all four yogas of mahāmudra?

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't.


yagmort said:
that's just the first of them: one-pointedness ( rtse gcig ), spros bral, ro gcig, and non-meditation ( sgom med ). so "when one ends the session, the calm state brought about by one-pointed meditation also ceases" is only applicable to the first stage..

Malcolm wrote:
It is applicable also to minor and medium spros bral.

yagmort said:
i thought Gambopa's four yogas of mahamudra is basically the rebranded dzogchen semde anyway, so the seeming differences are just nominal?

Malcolm wrote:
This is what some people believe. But Longchenpa also criticizes this kind of sems sde approach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:


Astus said:
And those two views come from not understanding but grasping at the aggregates ( https://suttacentral.net/sn22.80/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=main&notes=none&highlight=false&script=latin#9.1 ).

Malcolm wrote:
But you don't need to accept rebirth to cease grasping at aggregates as a self. For example:

“The Buddha refused to have any dealing with those things which don’t lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there is rebirth. What is reborn? How is it reborn? What is its kammic inheritance?3 These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha. That being so they are not Buddhist teaching and they are not connected with it. They do not lie in the sphere of Buddhism...

Therefore, there being no one born here, there is no one who dies and is reborn. So, the whole question of rebirth is utterly foolish and nothing to do with Buddhism at all...

The Buddhist teachings aim to inform us that there is no self and nothing belonging to a self, there is only the false understanding of the ignorant mind. There is merely body and mind, which are nothing but natural processes. They function like a mechanism that can process and transform data. If they do so by the wrong method, it gives rise to foolishness and delusion, so that one feels that there is a self and things which belong to a self. If they do so by the correct method, those feelings do not arise; there is the primal truth-discerning awareness (satipanna), the fundamental true knowing and clear seeing that there is no self and nothing belonging to a self.”

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In this case then, Buddhism is a philosophy, since no one needs to accept Buddha’s word for anything, and one can reason whether or not the Buddha’s teachings are correct or incorrect, as Dharmakirti shows, without relying on any scriptural authority.

Astus said:
One can (and should) reason whether the teachings are correct or incorrect, but reasoning itself is not considered a sufficient and reliable source (AN 3.66, MN 95), but it is through direct knowledge of the teaching that one attains established faith in the Buddha (MN 47, SN 47.12).
On the other hand, if one were to come to some different conclusion than what is taught in the scriptures, would that still be considered acceptable as a correct Buddhist view? Can a Buddhist contradict the Buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhists contradict the Buddha all the time. This is why we have the notion of definitive and provisional teachings, which are philosophical distinctions posing as religious ones, couched in pseudographia—sūtras—used a proof texts for this and that philosophical position. The strategy here is to put words in the mouth of the Buddha so that one never can be accused to directly contradicting something the Buddha said. This is also why so-called mainstream Buddhists rejected Mahāyāna in toto because their Buddha and our Buddha couldn't seem to agree on much other than the three afflictions and a notion of karma. We all just cherry-pick what we like from a morass of conflicting doctrines, using excuses like "skillful means," "relative and ultimate," "definitive and provisional" to defend our interpretations of a large body of contradictory texts set down largely between 100 BCE and 1100 CE.

Astus said:
All that matters is that one recognizes the three afflictions drive karma, which results in suffering. And if one is a Mahayani, to have a commitment to benefit sentient beings in whatever ways one can. If one believes in rebirth, so much the better, but it isn’t necessary.
And is there a Buddhist tradition, a school, a lineage that operates with such a minimalist approach?

Malcolm wrote:
Traditions, schools, and lineages with their rituals, such as ordination rituals, bodhisattva vow ceremonies, empowerments, and so on, are something invented by Buddhists, not the Buddha.

Ultimately, one is one's own authority, one decides what to accept and what to reject. There is, in Buddhism, no central authority who decides what is and what isn't Buddhism. This is so obvious I don't even know why we are discussing it.

The one common factor we can find among all Buddhist schools, however, is the idea that suffering is caused by karma, and that karma is caused by affliction, and in Mahāyāna, the idea that we have an intrinsic moral obligation to benefit others apart from ourselves.

Otherwise, there is no agreement on lineage, rules, rites, prayers, etc., all the ancillary stuff which Buddhists have added to this basic formula and get so worked up about.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 7:19 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Aren’t you are saying that faith in (let’s call it) ‘the ‘unprovable stuff’ is essential to practice Mahayana? But then you are saying that one doesn’t have to believe in ‘unprovable stuff’ if one isn’t on the Bodhisattva path?
So doesn’t mean that faith isn’t required?

Astus said:
Mahayana begins with the intention to attain buddhahood to liberate all beings. At the time of aspiration there is no direct knowledge of what buddhahood is, nor of many other elements of the path needed to get there. Furthermore, unless one reduces the meaning of the terms like 'bodhisattva' and 'all beings', and does not take into account the Jatakas and other accounts of bodhisattvas, there are necessarily rebirth and other things involved.
As for faith in Buddhism in general, if one interprets it as a temporary method to alleviate some stress, then not much is needed apart from trusting in the outcome. But that seems to fall short of being a follower of the Triple Jewel.

Malcolm wrote:
Belief is just belief. One can believe anything, like the Red Queen, believing 100 impossible things before breakfast.

The point of Buddhadharma is verification. The Buddha invites us to verify his claims, testing them as a goldsmith examines a piece of gold.  When one has tested something one believes might be gold, and finds out it either is gold or not, then there is no ore reason for the belief.

As far as jatakas go, these are just so stories for moral edification. It is not necessary to believe they are actually past lives of the Buddha, just as it is not necessary to believe sutras and tantras are the literal words of the Buddha which sprang out of his living mouth.

All that matters is that one recognizes the three afflictions drive karma, which results in suffering. And if one is a Mahayani, to have a commitment to benefit sentient beings in whatever ways one can. If one believes in rebirth, so much the better, but it isn’t necessary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 7:07 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So Nagarjuna is not thinking systematically? What about Aquinas? In fact religious thinkers use philosophy all the time, rendering your distinctions trivial at best.

Astus said:
The distinction was not whether one uses methodical reasoning, but if that is used as the ultimate authority.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case then, Buddhism is a philosophy, since no one needs to accept Buddha’s word for anything, and one can reason whether or not the Buddha’s teachings are correct or incorrect, as Dharmakirti shows, without relying on any scriptural authority.

Astus said:
Materialists and physicalists accept unfalsifiable propositions, for example, that there is no rebirth.
That's not the same as accepting supernatural entities, nor is philosophy to be confused with natural science.

Malcolm wrote:
An unfalsifiable proposition is an unfalsifiable proposition, whether it is about elves or the Big Bang.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 6:53 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



Jules 09 said:
Once it is seen that all is already accomplished,


Malcolm wrote:
This is the error of assuming the basis is only lhundrup, the first and most important error of the six mistaken positions about the basis.

Passing By said:
Could you unpack this a bit?

As I understand, the Base is kadak and from and because of kadak, the characteristics and appearances of lhundrup and thukje arise like the refractive quality of a crystal resulting in colored light or the reflective property of a mirror resulting in reflections on it. In this way, the potential for all sorts of manifestations is there and because also the Base is empty, it is uncreated and uncompounded, thus, lhundrup. Is this correct?

If that is correct, then I don't follow how Jule's statement assumes the basis is only lhundrup? After all, isn't trekcho equivalent to the fourth vision? And trekcho stems from recognizing kadak (deciding on one thing, confidence in natural liberation etc). So assuming Jules means making the definitive decision required for trekcho, then how would that be stemming from the error that the Base is only lhundrup alone?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhahood, pg.57

The refutation states that this assertion that the basis is naturally perfect is defective. If it is claimed that at the time of the cause [the basis] is naturally perfect, the result also will be naturally perfect, [15b] like the example of butter already being naturally perfect in milk.

In the same way, is the cause established or not established in the result? If it is established, the result becomes a cause. Since a result is then pointless, the cause (deluded sentient beings) would then turn into the result (buddhas). In that case, there would be no need for anyone to make effort. If the cause is not established in the result, the assertion of the natural perfection [of the basis] is defective.

The relevant passage from the Six Dimensions:

Since the cause and result are different,
[the basis] too is not naturally perfect.
 Likewise, if the cause and result were the same, 
effort would be meaningless.


This why I explained to Jules earlier a point he does not get: even though there is buddhahood in dharmata, rig pa alone is insufficient, a guru alone is insufficient, and cultivation alone is insufficient. These three things must meet, then one can realize buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 6:22 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:


Astus said:
One possible key difference between a religious and a philosophical approach is that in the former the source of and the authority over truth is in a set of doctrines, while in the latter it is systematic thinking (generally speaking).

Malcolm wrote:
So Nagarjuna is not thinking systematically? What about Aquinas? In fact religious thinkers use philosophy all the time, rendering your distinctions trivial at best.

Astus said:
Not all philosophies accept the existence of something supernatural, as there are the various versions of materialism and physicalism.

Malcolm wrote:
Materialists and physicalists accept unfalsifiable propositions, for example, that there is no rebirth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 8:32 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
'People interested in Chan practice often find it difficult to have religious faith. As faith is intrinsically emotional, and Chan practitioners emphasize personal cultivation to gain physical and mental benefits or the experience of Chan, they find it hard to accept religious faith. This is actually a great mistake.'
And Gudo NIshijima flatly rejected rebirth, as do his students:
I giggle at the insistence at “my essence”…still clinging) my weak “impersonal stream of consciousness” will flow on and continue compelled by the residual ignorance, attachment and greed that still lingered.
https://zendirtzendust.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/death-and-buddhism-gudo-nishijima/
I talked to him about death on a number of occasions. Many people who have read my stuff are already familiar with the fact that he very strongly denied that the theory of reincarnation had any legitimate place in Buddhism. But I also know that his view of what happened after a person died was more nuanced than one might expect from knowing only that he denied reincarnation (as well as rebirth, transmigration, etc., it didn’t matter what you called it!).
http://hardcorezen.info/gudo-wafu-nishijima-1919-2014/2506

So what do you think? Bodhisattva or not a Bodhisattva? Nishijima certainly recited the bodhisattva vow daily.

natusake said:
Post-Meiji Soto Orthodoxy.

Dogen would have of course severely rebuked such a teacher. This is one way that buddhadharma dies.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, Dogen was reacting to contemporaries who questioned rebirth. Personally, I don’t. But I don’t think that not having a specific belief bars one from practicing Dharma. Of course, if one is explaining Dharma, it’s important to include the central existential issue Buddha sought to address.

The fact you describe it as post-Meiji orthodoxy is…interesting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 6:07 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
But by that criteria, only those who have taken a Bodhisattva vow are practicing Buddhists. Is that what you are saying?

Astus said:
No. Those who have taken the bodhisattva vows are the followers of the bodhisattva path. Not all Buddhists follow the bodhisattva path.

Malcolm wrote:
So, can one take the bodhisattva vow and reject transmigration?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:


Astus said:
For Buddhism to be excluded from the category of religion, there would have to be some version of it where the unverifiable elements do not exist.

Malcolm wrote:
Then philosophy is also religion, since in them all unverifiable elements exist.

Astus said:
Certainly the Buddha taught rebirth, but he did not expect people to necessarily accept it.
So, it is expected, as much as having right view is expected.

Malcolm wrote:
Clearly Buddha understood he was living in a pluralistic society, otherwise, there would be no reason for his teaching the four solaces.

Astus said:
Without compassion, there are no bodhisattvas at all, which is why Candrakīrti prostrates to compassion, rather than the Buddha, bodhisattvas, or even bodhicitta. So lets begin with that.
Compassion is not limited to Mahayana, or to Buddhism. So that would be an insufficient criteria to label one's view/practice/philosophy something specific.

Malcolm wrote:
And yet, HHDL famously stated, "my religion is kindness."

Astus said:
The fact is that all Buddharma can be approached as a religion, as philosophy, or as both.
'Indeed, Buddhism can be either a religion or a philosophy, or it can be neither. It may even be called a science, a psychology, a way of life, and so on. To apply any of these terms may be either right or wrong according to what we mean by such terms. In other words, it depends on the usage and implication of the term in question.

Malcolm wrote:
So?

Astus said:
In any case, there are many people who consider themselves Mahāyānis who nevertheless do not accept rebirth, particularly in your school.
I'm not trying to set up or prove some sort of barrier or criteria for who is or is not a real Buddhist. The point is simply that all Buddhist traditions accept a good number of supernatural elements as facts, so Buddhism is rightly called a religion.

Malcolm wrote:
As do all philosophies, and thus all philosophies are rightly called religions, and all religions are rightly called philosophies.

Astus said:
'People interested in Chan practice often find it difficult to have religious faith. As faith is intrinsically emotional, and Chan practitioners emphasize personal cultivation to gain physical and mental benefits or the experience of Chan, they find it hard to accept religious faith. This is actually a great mistake.'

Malcolm wrote:
And Gudo NIshijima flatly rejected rebirth, as do his students:
I giggle at the insistence at “my essence”…still clinging) my weak “impersonal stream of consciousness” will flow on and continue compelled by the residual ignorance, attachment and greed that still lingered.
https://zendirtzendust.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/death-and-buddhism-gudo-nishijima/

Astus said:
I talked to him about death on a number of occasions. Many people who have read my stuff are already familiar with the fact that he very strongly denied that the theory of reincarnation had any legitimate place in Buddhism. But I also know that his view of what happened after a person died was more nuanced than one might expect from knowing only that he denied reincarnation (as well as rebirth, transmigration, etc., it didn’t matter what you called it!).

Malcolm wrote:
http://hardcorezen.info/gudo-wafu-nishijima-1919-2014/2506

So what do you think? Bodhisattva or not a Bodhisattva? Nishijima certainly recited the bodhisattva vow daily.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Samsara does not necessarily entail rebirth, however. It can just be birth, jati.

Astus said:
The word samsara literally means moving on, from one place to another.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it means "traveling together."

Astus said:
Still, even by saying that samsara happens on a momentary basis, the many lives version is also a standard one everywhere.

Malcolm wrote:
And? It is not necessary to believe in rebirth to practice Dharma:

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html

Certainly the Buddha taught rebirth, but he did not expect people to necessarily accept it. He understood there were four solaces to be found by people who practiced Dharma.

Astus said:
Mahāyāna does not need to included this, it is ancillary, especially considering that no one actually attains buddhahood in a created buddhafield.
What makes it the bodhisattvayana if one removes the basic idea that the path is a matter of innumerable lifetimes

Malcolm wrote:
Without compassion, there are no bodhisattvas at all, which is why Candrakīrti prostrates to compassion, rather than the Buddha, bodhisattvas, or even bodhicitta. So lets begin with that.

In any case, there are many people who consider themselves Mahāyānis who nevertheless do not accept rebirth, particularly in your school. They are not practicing only for this life, they are practicing to leave a better world behind them. So, the first and second solace described by the Buddha above still apply.

The fact is that all Buddharma can be approached as a religion, as philosophy, or as both. Why? The four solaces again:

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



Dawa Ösel said:
Some statments here at least shows, what "qualities" a Dzogchen master should not have, at least non i would follow

Malcolm wrote:
Have a look at r/Dzogchen on reddit. This is all pretty mild.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Or Dzogchen FB groups, for that matter…

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, the ones run by jax...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Zoey85 said:
even if his way of acting like he's the first in history to ever encounter and "get" the teachings...is super annoying.

Malcolm wrote:
He is the tall poppy around here...

Dawa Ösel said:
Some statments here at least shows, what "qualities" a Dzogchen master should not have, at least non i would follow

Malcolm wrote:
Have a look at r/Dzogchen on reddit. This is all pretty mild.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Zoey85 said:
even if his way of acting like he's the first in history to ever encounter and "get" the teachings...is super annoying.

Malcolm wrote:
He is the tall poppy around here...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2023 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The nature of samsara is suffering. Suffering isn't made up, and everyone experiences it. Therefore, "samsara" is not a matter of faith.

Astus said:
Samsara as the rounds of births in the six realms is, without the divine eye.

Malcolm wrote:
Samsara does not necessarily entail rebirth, however. It can just be birth, jati.


Astus said:
The essence of Mahāyāna is not creating buddhafields. The essence of Mahāyāna is compassion
As great compassion with the final aim to become a buddha includes the creation of a buddha field.

Malcolm wrote:
According to some book you read. There are philosophies with teleological ends as well. Mahāyāna does not need to included this, it is ancillary, especially considering that no one actually attains buddhahood in a created buddhafield.


Astus said:
But no teaching is proven correct just by having followers beyond a few centuries.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. This applies to all religions and all philosophies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
It seems your 27 years...

Malcolm wrote:
It's always fun when people boast about how long they've been practicing this or that, but as we know, Jules has a marked penchant for boasting about himself.

It seems he hasn't figured out that the reason any of us are here is because we did not attain liberation in our previous life through Dzogchen teachings due to lack of understanding. Luckily for Jules, he seems to have faith in the word "Dzogchen," even if his presentation leaves much to desired. So he'll gave another chance in the next life to get it right.

For example, I'd be surprised if Jules knows when in the four yogas of mahāmudra rig pa is actually exposed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
But following the Dharma path to freedom from samsara doesn’t require believing any of that. It doesn’t even require that what has been preserved as the Buddha’s words were ever spoken by the Buddha.

Astus said:
Are you aware of any Buddhist tradition that teaches such a reduced view? Also, to say that there is such a thing as samsara is already a matter of faith and not something verified.

Malcolm wrote:
The nature of samsara is suffering. Suffering isn't made up, and everyone experiences it. Therefore, "samsara" is not a matter of faith.

Astus said:
When people imagine Buddha the way Christians imagine God, then it’s a religion.
In that case Mahayana is necessarily a religion, as buddhas create buddha-realms.

Malcolm wrote:
The essence of Mahāyāna is not creating buddhafields. The essence of Mahāyāna is compassion, in which case, Buddhism is not a religion, it's a eudaemonic philosophy, like Epicureanism.

Astus said:
When people conceive of Buddha as the teacher of the true way, then it’s a philosophy.
That would still qualify it to be a religion, as in philosophy there is no single teacher giving the true way.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is also the case in Buddhism as a whole. There are many teachers in Buddhism, not only the Buddha, each with distinct and sometimes conflicting presentations of what they term "Dharma."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 9:16 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Jules 09 said:
There is no real difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra.
The words may differ, but the meaning is the same.

Malcolm wrote:
If you mean only that the ultimate realization of both is the same, we agree, but there there is no ultimate difference in buddhahood by any path.

Otherwise, we disagree.

Jules 09 said:
Once it is seen that all is already accomplished,


Malcolm wrote:
This is the error of assuming the basis is only lhundrup, the first and most important error of the six mistaken positions about the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Jules 09 said:
There is no real difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra.
The words may differ, but the meaning is the same.

Malcolm wrote:
If you mean only that the ultimate realization of both is the same, we agree, but there there is no ultimate difference in buddhahood by any path.

Otherwise, we disagree. For example, I don't agree that the four yogas of mahāmudra can be equated with the four visions. The four yogas of mahāmudra part of the teaching of the nine yānas and are based on mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Can I stop existing?
Content:
Mirror said:
I don't mean my ego, the 'self', the 'I', I mean the consciousness, the mind which experience things. Can it to stop existing forever?

Malcolm wrote:
Short answer: no.

Mirror said:
Can you please elaborate a little bit?

Malcolm wrote:
The mind, from a buddhist point of view, is propelled by karma in the case of sentient being. And in the case of an awaked being, it is sustained by compassion. It will never cease to exist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Can I stop existing?
Content:
Mirror said:
I don't mean my ego, the 'self', the 'I', I mean the consciousness, the mind which experience things. Can it to stop existing forever?

Malcolm wrote:
Short answer: no.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Contemplation (bsam gtan), to use ChNN's term, is something one discovers, which one then continues in without effort. Longchenpa elsewhere describes this as self-abiding, self-liberated consciousness which is discovered through what he terms "the yoga of the natural state."

Kai lord said:
To bring back one of the earlier discussions, as one abides in the natural state in ever increasing duration and frequency.

Does the experience of that natural state increase in term of intensity?

Malcolm wrote:
No, not the state of vidyā itself. However, there many be many transient experiences which may increase in intensity, but these should recognized for what they are and not followed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
yagmort said:
i would say rushens, tregcho and thogel are all fall under canopy of meditative practices, aren't they?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Meditation (bsgoms) means maintaining an object in a one-pointed mind, for example, as in the one-pointedness of the four yogas of mahāmudra. The limitation of this approach, according to Longchenpa and ChNN, is that when one ends the session, the calm state brought about by one-pointed meditation also ceases.

Contemplation (bsam gtan), to use ChNN's term, is something one discovers, which one then continues in without effort. Longchenpa elsewhere describes this as self-abiding, self-liberated consciousness which is discovered through what he terms "the yoga of the natural state."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2023 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...He also stressed that in Dzogchen teachings understanding was more important than meditating...

yagmort said:
could you elaborate what do you mean by "understanding"? does that mean intellectual understanding is more important than meditative realizations?

Malcolm wrote:
The principle of Dzogchen is not meditation; the principle is the state of knowledge. There are many practices in Dzogchen to enable us to enter into, develop, and ultimately realize this state of knowledge. It is also at the level of our mind that we integrate this state of knowledge into all of our daily activities in our life.

ChNN, Dec 1985, Merigar, Italy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2023 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...the direct perception of dharmatā is unique to Dzogchen teachings, as are such teachings as four or six bardos, the six liberations...

yagmort said:
are these explanatory, dzogchen theory teachings or dzogchen practice teachings? if they are practical, where do these things fit into speaking of Dzogchen in terms of rushen/tregcho/thogal?

Malcolm wrote:
Everything in Dzogchen is practice-oriented. Nothing in Dzogchen teaching is purely theoretical.

The fact is that what we have available to us in English is a tiny fraction of the original Dzogchen teachings found in the three series. It creates a rather skewed view of Dzogchen teachings. Giving some people the idea that they only need to rely on short texts written by later scholars. Explaining something like the Treasury of Genuine Meaning or the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu takes many weeks. For example, Khenpo Namdrol explained these commentaries over many weeks each, spread out over several years. When he was alive, ChNN gave many weeks of instruction on Dzogchen teachings every year from 1976-2017. It was possible to listen to hundreds of hours of teachings by ChNN and it still is. As my teacher, ChNN stated repeatedly, Dzogchen sounds easy, but it is not so easy. He also stressed that in Dzogchen teachings understanding was more important than meditating.

But our friend Jules here thinks that proper understanding of Dzogchen teachings can be gained by quoting brief passages from tertiary literature, a brief introduction, and a few hours of instruction per year.Of course, Tsele Natsok Rangdrol was an interesting person, but he himself studied for many years and received many thousands of hours of Dzogchen instruction. He did not rely on a brief introduction, and fifteen or twenty hours of instruction per year. So the moral of the story is to be like Tsele Natsok Rangdrol, and not like Jules.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2023 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



ject said:
What about all the errors in live interpretation (translation)?

Malcolm wrote:
Find a teacher who teaches in English if this is a concern. My primary teacher, the late Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, taught in English. Tulku Dakpa in Finland teaches in English. He understands Dzogchen teachings quite perfectly.

ject said:
there can be flaws in the guru's instruction, even if they have a proper lineage

Point is, if it's not written down, it is guaranteed to change.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why it is said there are no flaws in the scriptures.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2023 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



Jules 09 said:
The way that you are using the term "rig pa" here is not at all what I would call rig pa, within the context of the Dzogchen teachings. And in the 27 years since I first encountered these teachings, I have never heard any Dzogchen teacher say that rig pa, as pointed out by the guru, is "insufficient".

Malcolm wrote:
Since the citation comes from one of the authoritative commentaries on the seventeen tantras, you might want to stop being a frog in a well and widen your perspective.

Jules 09 said:
Perhaps this is what you mean by "the introduction to the direct perception of dharmatā".
Or as Tsele Natsok Rangdrol puts it: "seeing the nature of your mind".

Malcolm wrote:
Not the same thing. If it were the same thing, there would be no difference between Dzogchen, Lamdre, Mahāmudra, and so on. But the fact is that the direct perception of dharmatā is unique to Dzogchen teachings, as are such teachings as four or six bardos, the six liberations, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2023 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
rai said:
and once you find a Guru  never visit Dharmawheel Dzogchen subforum again to avoid confusion and wasting time

Dawa Ösel said:
Maybe the most valuable post in the entire forum

Malcolm wrote:
As someone observed above, yet here you are.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2023 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Is there an update on the lungs?
Content:
not_z said:
Maybe if one signs up to Ngondrogar or something like that one might receive online lungs, not that I would know though.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2023 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
ject said:
Now it's gone and I have to go lama chasing. That is a depressing thought.

Malcolm wrote:
Think of it as more like meeting an old friend from a past life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2023 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
What exactly are you trying to say?

Malcolm wrote:
That rig pa, a guru, and so on, are not sufficient. Many people have gurus, everyone has rig pa, and many people have intimate instructions from their gurus, and yet, lacking the introduction to the direct perception of dharmatā that does not depend on words, they still are very far away from the meaning of the Great Perfection, even if they practice very, very hard.

Just quoting words of this and that master you happen to favor is really a waste of time. It does not help anyone. You might enjoy typing them, but it is better you spent your time studying more deeply and taking teachings, rather than boasting about your personal connection with masters you imagine are realized and putting other people down.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2023 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Really?

So, are you saying that practicing the instructions that one personally receives from a guru that holds the unbroken oral/aural lineage of transmission, that can be traced back to Garab Dorje, or Saraha, or Tilopa; is "not enough" ?


Malcolm wrote:
I said that rig pa, or a guru, etc., is not enough. As Vimalmitra observes:

Similarly, though there is buddhahood in nondual dharmatā, it does not exist in one’s vidyā alone, which is insufficient. Likewise, a guru alone is insufficient. Also, one’s cultivation is insufficient. When these three things meet [vidyā, guru, and cultivation], buddhahood is a certainty.

Not only this, but also there can be flaws in the guru's instruction, even if they have a proper lineage:

The Tantra Without Syllables, the root tantra of the veiw, states:

Therefore, it is said there are no errors in the scriptures,
but errors can arise in the intimate instructions.
pg. 148

Vimalamitra simply notes:

However, since the explanation of the instructions of the guru can be explained with or without error, it seems that errors can arise.
pg. 148

Therefore, it is incumbent upon the student to make sure the instructions they are receiving are consistent with the Dzogchen tantras and commentaries. Even upadeśas are ultimately deceptive. The only thing that counts in Dzogchen is direct perception, as Vimalamitra states:

The intimate instruction that approaches the critical points proper to direct perception does not exist [in the common upadeśas]. Since there is no buddhahood via intimate instructions, which induce a fabricated realization, all intimate instructions also do not exist. If it is asked why, it is because intimate instructions depend on words. Vidyā is free from all words. pg. 167

One needs the intimate instruction of direct perception, and that cannot rely on words:

Likewise, since the experience will arise in one’s continuum through the intimate instructions of the guru, there is liberation without needing to rely on words.
pg. 175

Without this, one simply won't be able to understand the meaning of the Great Perfection. This is one reason it is recommended one seek out a few teachers when one is beginner.

Personally, I have seen many mistaken explanations, particularly, explanations made by Western teachers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2023 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Head transplant, physicalism vs Buddhadharma
Content:


Vajrasambhava said:
As you can see here: https://msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/facts-about-vegetative-and-minimally-conscious-states-after-severe-brain-injury
Following objects with eyes requires a minimal amount of consciousness, this can be seen in people in vegetative state, where consciousness is functional in a basic form. While in coma there's no possibility to track objects with eyes.
It makes sense, since to track an object, a sense of discernment must be functional, and discernment it's impossible without consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two monkeys in this grotesque experiment, Ma and Mb. Mb is decapitated; Ma's head is transplanted onto the still-viable torso of Mb. Let's call this new monkey "Mf," Monkey Frankenstein. But this does not settle the question of which consciousness is now tracking objects, chewing, and so on in Mf's head—Ma's or Mb's?

Thus, the experiment does not settle the question you are seeking to answer.

Vajrasambhava said:
I think it's much more easier to address.
The consciousness in this case it's of course monkey A's. The body of Mb has to be seen as nothing more than a blood bag. This is because in the experiment just the blood vessels were sewn; no spinal cord, no nerves were attached to the Ma's head, so just blood exchange. The body functions were useless since it was just a dead detached blood pump for oxygen exchange.

Malcolm wrote:
This assumes consciousness is restricted to or located in the nervous system. In order for there to be consciousness in a body, it must breath, it must be able to take in air and turn it into prāṇa vāyu. According to tantric anatomy, consciousness is inseparable from prāṇa vāyu. Certainly it is the case that sensory functions are governed by the brain. Tibetan Buddhists have known this for over a thousand years in our medical system. But this does not address the issue of consciousness nor its location in the body. So your experiment does not prove anything at all about the location of consciousness nor which monkey's consciousness is in Mf.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2023 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Head transplant, physicalism vs Buddhadharma
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2023 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:


ject said:
Now it seems, there is no way around it because it's a part and parcel of getting dzogchen-teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
How would you expect to receive Dzogchen teachings without a teacher?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2023 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
ThreeVows said:
In a sort of ultimate sense, the guru is, and always was, with you. It may not be that one immediately has conscious, gross access to a physical form with a larynx, with blue or brown eyes, etc. But that doesn't mean that you are simply bereft of any... help, or guidance, or that you're outside of the sphere of the guru's blessing, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
If one wishes to practice Dzogchen teaching, a guru is indispensable.

But a teacher of Dzogchen is not like other kinds of traditional gurus, who sit on thrones, have large retinues, temples, and so on. A teacher of Dzogchen teaches people how to go beyond limitations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2023 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Head transplant, physicalism vs Buddhadharma
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
While it seems extremely unlikely there will be successful human-to-human head transplants any time soon, if ever, a somewhat related procedure, that might also be of interest to this question, is human-to-human heart transplants.

Malcolm wrote:
Consciousness is not located in the heart muscle. It is located below the heart in the center of the body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2023 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Head transplant, physicalism vs Buddhadharma
Content:


Vajrasambhava said:
As you can see here: https://msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/facts-about-vegetative-and-minimally-conscious-states-after-severe-brain-injury
Following objects with eyes requires a minimal amount of consciousness, this can be seen in people in vegetative state, where consciousness is functional in a basic form. While in coma there's no possibility to track objects with eyes.
It makes sense, since to track an object, a sense of discernment must be functional, and discernment it's impossible without consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two monkeys in this grotesque experiment, Ma and Mb. Mb is decapitated; Ma's head is transplanted onto the still-viable torso of Mb. Let's call this new monkey "Mf," Monkey Frankenstein. But this does not settle the question of which consciousness is now tracking objects, chewing, and so on in Mf's head—Ma's or Mb's?

Thus, the experiment does not settle the question you are seeking to answer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2023 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: No guru, no dzogchen?
Content:
ject said:
I have been reading books about dzogchen and if I understand it correctly - if one has no wish to find a guru, there is no point in studding the subject, unless it's for research or something academical like that.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s like reading about sugar without ever tasting it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2023 at 6:55 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but this is a misunderstanding. In Dzogchen teachings no distinction is made between people of sharp or dull faculties. For this reason it is said that if a pandita and a cow herd sit down together to receive instruction, they both understand the same thing when they get up. If they don’t, the fault isn’t in the teachings, it’s in the teacher.

Shaiksha said:
Sure. How about in some sem de teachings, such as the Aro Jungne lineage? They made a distinction of practitioners of different capacity.

Malcolm wrote:
There are differences in diligence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2023 at 11:21 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Shaiksha said:
. However, they have high capacity in a sense they can understand the true meaning of the teachings with just simple instructions (e.g. Chulapanthaka). How many people can be like that? However, they are the exceptions rather than the norm.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but this is a misunderstanding. In Dzogchen teachings no distinction is made between people of sharp or dull faculties. For this reason it is said that if a pandita and a cow herd sit down together to receive instruction, they both understand the same thing when they get up. If they don’t, the fault isn’t in the teachings, it’s in the teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2023 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Your presentation is very intellectual; unfortunately, it is not very scholarly.
It's based on the direct experience that arises from receiving, in person, the oral instructions (pointing out) of accomplished yogis.

Malcolm wrote:
I guess you think you are the only person here who has this qualification. You sure act like it.

In any case, presenting things like this in words is necessarily intellectual, since no matter how many words you are share, it's like telling someone who has never tasted sugar what sugar tastes like. So frankly, it's disingenuous to claim you are not engaged here in an intellectual exercise, even if it lacks scholarly rigor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2023 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


ThreeVows said:
Regardless of any other discussion on this thread, IMO this is an excellent quote

Malcolm wrote:
Jules just keeps reposting this. Every one knows, or ought to know, one cannot actually understand Dzogchen teachings, etc, without relying on a qualified teacher. On the other hand, it is not enough to rely on a teacher, or rig pa, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2023 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
It's fine to question an intellectual and scholarly presentation of the teachings of "the practice lineage"

Malcolm wrote:
Your presentation is very intellectual; unfortunately, it is not very scholarly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2023 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2024 part 1
Content:


ThreeVows said:
Overall, I would hope that the trend doesn't continue, even while I will almost certainly vote for Biden this election. I would hope that we get back towards a sort of 45-65 year old general range, by and large.

Malcolm wrote:
As mentioned above, there is no doubt that this will be the case for 2028.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2024 part 1
Content:


ThreeVows said:
I don't understand why so many people are seeming to resist the simple observation that our Presidential candidates recently have been really quite old compared to previous ones.

Malcolm wrote:
The implication is that younger candidates will perform better in office.

ThreeVows said:
I suppose I get your point, although to some extent I think it is quite fair to consider age, at a point, for a President. They're talking for instance about how Biden is too old to make repeated trans-Atlantic trips, specifically related to the coronation in England, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
That's not the reason he is not going. He is not going because it is inappropriate for him to go.


ThreeVows said:
Again, it would seem extremely likely that I will vote for him nonetheless, given the circumstances. But I do recognize that he's, basically, old. And that is to some extent a concern. And in an ideal world, would I like to see us going away from 80 year old presidents in favor of younger candidates? Yes, I would.


Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you need to worry about that, birth, aging, and death being what they are.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2024 part 1
Content:


ThreeVows said:
I don't understand why so many people are seeming to resist the simple observation that our Presidential candidates recently have been really quite old compared to previous ones.

Malcolm wrote:
The implication is that younger candidates will perform better in office.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2024 part 1
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Old white guys holding the power in the US isn’t exactly a novel development.

ThreeVows said:
To a significant degree my point was simply an observation that actually, to this degree, it IS a novel development. Biden is by far the oldest president in history, and the one behind him is Trump.

Most presidents in US history have been under 60.

Again I’m not necessarily saying Biden has done a poor job but I think it is notable how old our last two presidents have been and now we may get a redux.

Malcolm wrote:
You have to understand this in context: life expectancy between 1780–1874 was 64.6. For example, Washington was president from 1789-1797. He died in 1799, at 67. So, that time, he was quite old.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 6:07 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
amanitamusc said:
Malcolm, why bother?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s not for Jules, it’s for those who might think he actually knows what he is talking about.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:




Sādhaka said:
Whoa



Malcolm wrote:
That guy is

Now, this is credible:

https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/osint-analysis-six-russian-ships

https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/blowing-holes-in-seymour-hershs-pipe


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:





Jules 09 said:
So, what is this "difference" ?

How can something that is aware be different from itself?

Malcolm wrote:
Your question does not follow from Vimalamitra's statement. The point is that there is a conscious part of the basis (gzhi shes) that can become deluded.

Longchen addresses this by quoting a text called the Illuminating Lamp:
The cause and seed of delusion that arises
from the basis that abides in that way
is the clarity aspect [of the basis] that strays outside—
a clear and knowing consciousness (shes pa gsal gsal rig rig).
Because there is a slight outward movement
that arises from the three-fold ignorance,
the thought (blo) that apprehends that object as a self in the appearing aspect
mistakenly differentiates the basis and the consciousness aspect of basis
in terms of the basis and the aspect of the appearance of the basis.
This is what Vimalamitra means when he says:

"delusion arose from the difference between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis."

Perhaps it is better expressed as "delusion arose from differentiating between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis." However, it is the conscious aspect of the basis that is differentiating itself from the basis by apprehending its appearance as a self, and thus, "delusion arose from the difference between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis" because the basis itself can never become deluded, but the conscious aspect of the basis can become deluded.

Jules 09 said:
The point is that there is a conscious part of the basis (gzhi shes) that can become deluded.
The basis doesn't have "parts". It's empty and aware.

And that's all there is to it !

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I think you should let Vimalamitra, Rangjung Dorje, and Longchenpa know that they have been sending people down rabbit holes with all their talk of straying, appearances, and parts in order to explain how it is that rig pa becomes ma rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Jules 09 said:
What "thing" is that?

Malcolm wrote:
The "rig pa po."

"if it is asked how delusion came about, delusion arose from the difference between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis."

Buddhahood, pg. 75.

Jules 09 said:
delusion arose from the difference between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis.
So, what is this "difference" ?

How can something that is aware be different from itself?

Malcolm wrote:
Your question does not follow from Vimalamitra's statement. The point is that there is a conscious part of the basis (gzhi shes) that can become deluded.

Longchen addresses this by quoting a text called the Illuminating Lamp:
The cause and seed of delusion that arises
from the basis that abides in that way
is the clarity aspect [of the basis] that strays outside—
a clear and knowing consciousness (shes pa gsal gsal rig rig).
Because there is a slight outward movement
that arises from the three-fold ignorance,
there is a thought (blo) that apprehends that object as a self in the appearing aspect.
The cause of delusion meets the condition of the object
from the difference between the basis and consciousness aspect of the basis
which arises from the basis and the aspect of the appearance of the basis.
This is what Vimalamitra means when he says:

"delusion arose from the difference between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis."

Perhaps it is better expressed as "delusion arose from differentiating between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis." However, it is the conscious aspect of the basis that is differentiating itself from the basis by apprehending its appearance as a self, and thus, "delusion arose from the difference between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis" because the basis itself can never become deluded, but the conscious aspect of the basis can become deluded.

And this is why the example that is used is the jaundiced eye that deludes itself to see white clouds as yellow and so forth. The error exists in the eye, just as the error exists in the conscious aspect of the basis. Rangjung Dorje calls this the "rig pa that apprehends the basis," which is identified by Vimalamitra as among the five kinds of rig pa in the Vima Nyingthig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 1:26 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2024 part 1
Content:



ThreeVows said:
Biden's performance aside, I just think they are really quite old, both of them, and it's kind of remarkable how much older Biden was/is than any other president in US history. I don't think very many businesses for instance would hire people of that age. But anyway, hopefully the best thing happens for the US and the world moving forward, whatever that may be.

Malcolm wrote:
Biden is also the most experienced politician who has ever served as President. But we don't value old people anymore. We out them out to pasture. Big mistake.

ThreeVows said:
Fair enough, although I think traditionally for the most part older people aren't necessarily running the show as much as advising and giving perspective and wisdom.

Malcolm wrote:
In a liberal democracy, no one "runs the show," its a collaboration, or should be, between the three branches of government.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2024 part 1
Content:



ThreeVows said:
Biden's performance aside, I just think they are really quite old, both of them, and it's kind of remarkable how much older Biden was/is than any other president in US history. I don't think very many businesses for instance would hire people of that age. But anyway, hopefully the best thing happens for the US and the world moving forward, whatever that may be.

Malcolm wrote:
Biden is also the most experienced politician who has ever served as President. But we don't value old people anymore. We out them out to pasture. Big mistake.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 27th, 2023 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Jules 09 said:
What "thing" is that?

Malcolm wrote:
The "rig pa po."

"if it is asked how delusion came about, delusion arose from the difference between the basis and the conscious aspect of the basis."

Buddhahood, pg. 75.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2023 at 10:08 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2024 part 1
Content:
ThreeVows said:
Sort of random comment here, but I find it sort of crazy that at the time of election, Joe Biden was the oldest president in US history by about 8 years. And the one behind him? Trump. And now, hypothetically we may have a race between those two, the oldest presidents in US history, years after they were ALREADY the oldest presidents in history. Kind of sad I think personally.

Malcolm wrote:
Biden has done an excellent job, despite the crazy bullshit of the House GOP, who are going to lose hugely in the next election due to their clown car antics and the repeal of RVW.

Republicans have lost the popular vote in seven of eight last elections.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2023 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Is there an update on the lungs?
Content:
asdfjkl1979 said:
Hi Bob

Dzongsar Khyentse is giving the lung for Longchenpa's Dzo Dun in New Zealand in November. It is overbooked at the moment but you can go on the waiting list and hope they decide to find a bigger community hall!

https://siddharthasintent.org/events/dzo-dun-new-zealand/

Malcolm wrote:
He is also going to give this in California and Europe.

natusake said:
When? I see only references to the New Zealand retreat on his website.

Malcolm wrote:
Right. I talked about this with one of the organizes of the NZ retreat, this is what he told me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2023 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Sādhaka said:
“Rongzom held that the views of Sutra such as Madhyamaka were inferior to that of Tantra…”


Kai lord said:
So did Mipham and Longchenpa but Madhyamaka debates are strangely addictive for some Buddhists.


Malcolm wrote:
The debate is not about the ultimate free from extremes: on this Madhyamaka, Secret Mantra, and Dzogchen are in accord. The issue is how relative truth is treated, this is where Dzogchen is held to be superior to both sutra and tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2023 at 9:27 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
amanitamusc said:
It is more likely he wil go the way off  glen beck and bill O


Sādhaka said:
Doubtful.

I mean, I’ve never really liked any of those Fox News guys much; o reilly, coulter, beck, hannity, etc.; although tucker is okay in some ways.

Carlson has a big enough following, that he would most likely do well if he started a podcast or similar.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s what they said about O’Riley.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 26th, 2023 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



Jules 09 said:
Another way of saying it, is that the basis re-cognizes itself - hence the use of the term 'self-awareness'.

Malcolm wrote:
You are incorrect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2023 at 7:06 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
PeterC said:
Only in contemporary US politics would Lemon be called “left wing”.  He’s at best center-right

Archie2009 said:
Misogyny is not a political colour, is it? That's the reason he got fired, I believe. A string of such incidents going back a few years.

On the other hand, voting in the US is sort of a binary, so in that sense he is just as much on the left as so many other Americans think themselves to be while voting for liberal conservative candidates like the Clintons and Obamas.

PeterC said:
The question is, why did he get fired *now*.  Literally every male anchor and news exec has me too issues.  It’s the timing of firing him that’s interesting

Malcolm wrote:
Pure coincidence. Also, the ratings on the CNN morning show were quite in the pits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2023 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
ThreeVows said:
The cat probably thought they were both tasty, I'd imagine.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, the cat was free from extremes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2023 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Is there an update on the lungs?
Content:
asdfjkl1979 said:
Hi Bob

Dzongsar Khyentse is giving the lung for Longchenpa's Dzo Dun in New Zealand in November. It is overbooked at the moment but you can go on the waiting list and hope they decide to find a bigger community hall!

https://siddharthasintent.org/events/dzo-dun-new-zealand/

Malcolm wrote:
He is also going to give this in California and Europe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 25th, 2023 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
DNS said:
Shakeup in cable news.

Tucker Carlson fired. (right-wing)
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/24/media/tucker-carlson-fox-news/index.html

Don Lemon fired. (left-wing)
https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2023/04/24/don-lemon-fired-cnn-news-anchor-terminated/11728506002/

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Tuckum's antics cost Murdoch millions, and there are millions more in settlements to follow.

Don Lemon has a problem with making repeated, misogynistic remarks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
sherabpa said:
I think this is more like how Gorampa and Mipham see it.

Malcolm wrote:
The way Candrakirti sees it, which is the way Dzogchen and Lamdre see it, is as follows, MAV 11:12d

sherabpa said:
The cessation of the mind is directly perceived by the kāya.

Malcolm wrote:
The qualities are present as the potential of a given sentient being.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 7:38 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
sherabpa said:
Again, zhentong is not reducible to statements by Dolpopa (or jamgon Kongtrul) about the three natures.

Malcolm wrote:
You are mistaken. A key characteristic of gzhan stong hermeneutics is to hold all five Maitreya texts to be definitive in meaning.

Not only this, but if you look at Kunga Drolchok's summary of Tsan Khawo Che's view (gzhan stong gi lta khrid), it is complete with the presentation of the three natures, and asserts it was extracted from Tsan's manual.


sherabpa said:
Again, this is proven by the centrality of the Uttaratantrashastra in the zhentong lineage, which does not even mention the three natures.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, mistaken, see above.


sherabpa said:
True, just accepting the Uttaratantrashastra does not make one a zhentongpa, otherwise everyone would be be zhentongpa. The difference is partly in whether the teaching on tathagatagharba is of provisional or definitive meaning. Those who say it is provisional meaning because it counters the 'five faults' are not zhentongpas. Zhentongpas say it is definitive meaning AND it counters the five faults.

Malcolm wrote:
False. Gorampa accepts the Uttaratantra as a definitive text, he is not a gzhan stong pa. Same goes for Longchenpa.

sherabpa said:
More than that, however, zhentong is a specific transmission lineage stemming from Maitripa and Tsen Khawoche on the one hand and Dolpopa on the other, though the name 'zhentong' was only used after Dolpopa of course. The Maitripa tradition is described in detail in the Blue Annals. It also considers itself primarily meditative as opposed to intellectual. So to call it an intellectual fashion is quite misleading.

Malcolm wrote:
Team’s  lineage did not survive. Dolbupa is the person who coined the terminology, "gzhan stong," but he does not depart from Tsan's use of the three natures.

Your attempted revisionism is a failure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 9:05 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then we have Patrul's position on sugatagarbha. Having pointed out that sutra and tantra have the same intent for sugatagarbha, he states:

[Qualm] Since Cittamatra Yogacarins assert the all-basis consciousness as truly established, and assert it to be sugatagarbha, is is not the same?

[Reply], Not only are those not the same, but asserting true existence is the siddhānta of those of defective intelligence. Though there is no need for equivalence because those [citations] correspond to the way madhyamaka defines the basis.

Our gzhan stong friends here will tell us that the perfected nature is truly established, and that tathāgatagarbha is also truly established.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then we have Patrul's position on sugatagarbha. Having pointed out that sutra and tantra have the same intent for sugatagarbha, he states:

[Qualm] Since Cittamatra Yogacarins assert the all-basis consciousness as truly established, and assert it to be sugatagarbha, is is not the same?

[Reply], Not only are those not the same, but asserting true existence is the siddhānta of those of defective intelligence. Though there is no need for equivalence because those [citations] correspond to the way the basis is defined up to madhyamaka.

Our gzhan stong friends here will tell us that the perfected nature is truly established, and that tathāgatagarbha is also truly established.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: Does Larung Gar lineage have the shantong view?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Maybe. As far as Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok himself goes, unlikely.

rime1 said:
Thanks for your reply. Maybe the disciples have different views from their guru's. btw I enrolled your new online course in Wisdom Academy and looking forward to join.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and sometimes people teach what they think people want/need to hear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:



sherabpa said:
Folks on here so often quibble with the detail in order to miss the main point. None of these masters rejected or insulted zhentong.

Malcolm wrote:
in Longchenpa, the mere absence of mention of such a position is such a glaring omission, it can’t be inadvertent.

OdeKirk said:
Doesn't Longchenpa mention the position here, although not in a favorable way(from Finding Rest in Illusion: https://www.shambhala.com/second-vajra-point-magical-illusion/ ): All phenomena are by their nature devoid of existence. In themselves, they are like space. The Middle-Length Prajñāpāramitā says, “In themselves, phenomena are like space. One can find in them no center and no boundary.” And likewise we find in the Samādhirāja-sūtra,

All things disintegrate, O Son of the Victorious One,
All existents are primordially empty.
Extremists hold a lesser emptiness.
But there is no debate between the learned and the childish.

In this regard, some say that phenomena are empty by virtue of a preclusion of something that they do not possess 55 but that they are not empty of themselves. 56 This is like saying that the sun is empty of darkness but is not empty of rays of light. This is a lesser kind of emptiness, however, through which no freedom would ever be possible from the belief in the true existence of things. Examined according to the argument of “neither one nor many,” the sun is empty of inherent existence; being thus, it is also empty of rays of light. It is empty and yet it appears. This is the very principle and essence of Madhyamaka, the Middle Way.

Malcolm wrote:
I hadn’t noticed this, I was referring to his tenet systems book, but this citation makes it clear Longchenpa held gzhan stong to be an inferior view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
sherabpa said:
There is no CEO of Nyingma


Sādhaka said:
Sure there is.

Two actually: Guru Padmasambhava and Longchenpa.

(Although I wouldn’t use the term “CEO”)

Oh and some would add Rongzompa and Ju Mipham.

sherabpa said:
Folks on here so often quibble with the detail in order to miss the main point. None of these masters rejected or insulted zhentong.

Malcolm wrote:
Mipham explicitly rejects it; in Longchenpa, the mere absence of mention of such a position is such a glaring omission, it can’t be inadvertent.

Anyway, if mere acceptance of tathagatagarbha makes one a gzhan stong pa, then everyone is a gzhan stong pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


sherabpa said:
And yes of course I accept the view of Patrul that the Gelug madhyamaka is an impediment to understanding dzogchen, because this point is very clearly stated and defended my Mipham in his Beacon of Certainty. I was unaware this was even contentious among dzogchen practitioners.

Malcolm wrote:
You missed the point, here. Paltrul’s presentation of the Abhisamayaalmakara is basically cribbed from Tsongkhapa Golden Rosary.

As for the kayas and wisdoms being present in the basis, the argument against the basis being naturally perfected [lhun grub] directly contradicts gzhan stong.

Like Khenpo Shenga, I just don’t think gzhan stong is coherent precisely because of how the yogacara doctrine of the three natures is misused by Dolbupa and others. As we see in Longchenpa, and Gorampa as well, there is a definitive understanding of tathagatagarbha which is consistent with prasanga. We do not need to resort to the intellectually impoverished idea presented by stong gzugs, which he repeats from earlier scholars, that the gzhan stong view is a post-equipoise view where so called relative phenomena are intrinsically empty and ultimate phenomena are extrinsically empty. Among Buddhist ideas, this is an extremely silly one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Does Larung Gar lineage have the shantong view?
Content:
rime1 said:
Maybe Jigme Phuntsok rinpoche and his disciples in Larung Gar are shantongpas like Jonang.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe. As far as Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok himself goes, unlikely. He writes in his View of the Union of Sutra and Tantra:
Apparent while nonexistent, the milk cow of form that is like a moon in the water,
the nature which is beyond reference or thought arises as intrinsic clarity,
the view of madhyamaka that has always been free of the taints of the eight extremes..."
He also criticizes the six limb yoga in this song:
Though it is claimed that "The suchness of the fourth is difficult to perceive
if the proximate cause of pratyāhāra is missing,"
because one's state is recognized through merely seeing the self-occuring [concentration],
sleeping happily having abandoned the eight yānas is what one really wants.
Khenchen Namdrol on the other hand told me personally (in 1993) that as far as Madhyamaka goes, he prefers Gorampa's presentation, describing it as having the same meaning as Dzogchen. On the other hand, Khenchen Namdrol's Madhyamaka teacher was the late Sakya Khenpo Rinchen.

Also, a good friend who has spend the past five years living in Golok and Kham told me that most Jonangpas that he knows do not actually subscribe to gzhan stong at all, and also prefer Gorampa's perspective.

In any case, as I have mentioned elsewhere, in general, most important Nyingma scholars in history, such as Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, Shabkar, Patrul, etc. have upheld Prasanga Madhyamaka as definitive, including Mipham.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2023 at 8:41 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


OdeKirk said:
However, I have seen Kagyu texts categorize Sakya/Gelug or even Prasangika as Rangtong entirely(but strangely not Nyingma, despite some Nyingma teachers also holding this view as evidenced in this thread), would this be a strawman and just polemics since they(the Rangtongpas) are obviously not arguing for a blank nothingness as an ultimate? I am just getting a bit of whiplash after reading that commentary on Beacon of Certainty, then reading some books by Kagyu authors.

Malcolm wrote:
The two truths are a union. However, those who argue that there is a blank ultimate of nonexistence are the gzhan stong pa, who assert relative phenomena do not exist at all in the perfected nature (gzhan stong), because they claim the perfected is empty of both the imputed and dependent natures (rang stong).

This view is very incompatible with Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2023 at 10:17 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


sherabpa said:
The Five Dharmas of Maitreya were translated in the early period of dharma

Malcolm wrote:
No, they weren’t. While the madhyāntavibhāga was first translated into Tibetan during the Imperial Period, the remaining four were not translated into Tibetan until the late 11th century, by Ngog Lotsawa.

sherabpa said:
Though he regarded prasanga as the supreme view for dzog chen, he regarded the Uttaratantrashastra as of definitive meaning.

Malcolm wrote:
He certainly accepted the ten tathagatagarbha sutras as definitive.However, he never resorted to using the three natures to explain the two truths, which is a key feature of gzhan stong analytics. He also never suggests that the basis is anything other than free from all extremes, while simultaneously holding that the kayas and pristine consciousnesses exist in the basis. Again, “Where emptiness is possible…”

sherabpa said:
The Uttaratantrashastra teaches that the buddha nature is not empty of supreme qualities as everyone knows and this is an important precept of zhentong. Therefore I do not think he would vehemently reject zhentiong or have contempt for it.

Malcolm wrote:
He would, because he would have vehemently, disagreed with applying the three natures to the two truths.

sherabpa said:
Jigme Lingpa accepted prasanga madhyamaka because he received a primarily Gelugpa madhyamaka education,

Malcolm wrote:
So you are going to make the same excuse for Patrul? Are you really going to claim that the Geluk view is an impediment to!understanding Dzogchen? If so, you would have to make the same observation comcerning gzhan stong.

sherabpa said:
Nyingma scholasticism having declined so seriously by his time that there was nothing else available to him.

Malcolm wrote:
False.

sherabpa said:
Whatever one thinks of zhentong, it is certainly an authentic lineage with many outstanding masters,

Malcolm wrote:
It was certainly an intellectual fashion at times in Tibet. But, philosophically speaking, it us at best a transitional view between yogacara and Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2023 at 3:12 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


ThreeVows said:
I think basically proper shentong likely arose as a response, as I said, to improper understandings of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Historically, it arose from followers of Śantipa's Madhyamaka-alaṃkara who did not like Candrakīrti. But even gzhan stong pas know that reality is actually free from all extremes, despite their neurotic anxiety about buddha-qualities.

"For those whom emptiness is possible, everything is possible."
-- Nāgārjuna

In any case, the Nyingma view of emptiness is Prasanga, not gzhan stong. Longchenpa declares quite clearly that it is the Prasanga view that is most compatible with Dzogchen, as does Jigme Lingpa, and as my own teacher asserted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 23rd, 2023 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
claims that nobody holds the rangtong position.

Malcolm wrote:
No one does apart from gzhan stong pas, which is what I stated already.

stong gzugs said:
Speaking of mind, prasangika is an intellectual activity and gzhanstong goes beyond mind.

Malcolm wrote:
No it doesn't. It is also just a kind of analysis based on tenets, especially, since, as you claim it is a post-equipoise conceptual position:

stong gzugs said:
Second, in the context of post-meditation, you should make precise distinctions, which means you should be a rangstongpa regarding things that are intrinsically empty and a gzhanstongpa regarding that which is extrinsically empty.

Malcolm wrote:
Properly speaking, the point of prasanga is to remove errors present in Buddhist schools.

gZhan stong is such a tragic mishmash, trying, in post-equipoise, to apply the three natures to the two truths, etc., which is why it is so easy to point out its internal contradictions.

stong gzugs said:
The two are simply not in the same class of methods or views. Gzhanstong is the experience of Kālacakra yogis and simply cannot be reached by those working with mind. When you practice yoga, you withdraw your senses from the dualistic world and then buddha nature itself begins to be revealed directly to your non-conceptual perception which takes you entirely beyond subject/object duality and intellectualizing.

Malcolm wrote:
Your claim is quite uncertain. Dudjom Rinpoche writes in the Big Red Book, pg. 301:

Although path through which this reality is actualised is superior only in mantra, on further examination the lower ways of mantra consist merely of symbolic and non-symbolic stages [of meditation]. The Six Limbed Yoga of Kalacakra, which is renowned as supreme in the Unsurpassed tantras, the Five Stages, and others, too, merely explain the ten signs of radiance and the form of emptiness which is a reflection of the three spheres of existence within a black outline. These are perceived by controlling the activity of the energy channels. the currents, and the seminal points. As the experience of the perception increases and decreases, even one who has meditated appropriately cannot attain the body of indestructible reality in which the elements have dissolved into light. Thus, those of lowly fortune contact herein not the defintive meaning but the merely the provisional meaning. So it is said by Naropa:

The single definitive means is the truth of the nucleus.
The four successive seals and the six-limbed yoga,
the diverse vehicles of thought, 
have resorted to the provisional and not the definitive, etc.,

Further, your claim about the six-limb yoga being a practice beyond the mind is very questionable. Pratyahāra, sense withdrawal, is just resting in a nonconceptual mind. It is not going beyond mind. Why? Longchenpo points out in his Treasury of Citations:

In brief, all meditations with and without support are included. ‘With support” refers to any objects of external appearance such as form, sound, scent, taste, and touch upon which one focuses the mind without distraction, like focusing the mind on a statue of a deity, a hand implement, a stick, a stone, and so on. “Without support” refers to mental objects—those with appearances such as wishing for nonconceptuality after focusing the mind on individual visualizations of the nāḍīs and bindus of vāyu, {414} like syllables, balls of light, nāḍī cakras, the fire of caṇḍaḹI, and so on; that is, focusing on the sequence of mental activities. Those meditations without appearances are sitting cross-legged, and so on, directing the mind, and gazing without distraction in a state without any concepts. This is focusing on a nonconceptual state of blank voidness. In general, objects of focus are included in the explanation that includes conceptual and nonconceptual objects. In brief, all assertions of a state of a single reference point are called “meditation.” The essence of those is a calm mind. The purpose is hoping for a result by stabilizing that [calm mind]. The function is the wish for the cessation of subject and object...These maintain the object of focus through the wish for the cessation of subject and object. Since they are an approach to control thoughts, they are a method of being introduced to the profound Dharma, but they are not the profound actual yoga...

This is confirmed by what you write:
When you practice yoga, you withdraw your senses from the dualistic world and then buddha nature itself begins to be revealed directly to your non-conceptual perception which takes you entirely beyond subject/object duality and intellectualizing.
So you are mistaking methods of arresting conceptuality for being the actual profound yoga itself. Longchenpa continues with his point about distinguishing paths based on mind, and the Great Perfection:

For as long as mind is employed as the path, when effort is made in the practice of meditating a calm mind, it will exist. When the effort is dropped, [the calm mind] will perish— that is its actual nature. For as long as the pristine consciousness of vidyā is employed as the path, since it abides in the stream of naturally occurring concentration, qualities will arise naturally, and those will be present at all times without any possibility of being separate from them. In that case, though the nonconceptual mind sustained by a great meditator and the nonconceptuality of the yogi’s naked recognition of vidyā are similarly nonconceptual, [in the former case,] if the key points such as the posture of the body, and so on, for nonconceptual mind are dropped, [that nonconceptual mind] will perish, and also [vidyā] will not be exposed nakedly. Nonconceptual vidyā is the complete opposite of that.

stong gzugs said:
Gzhanstong can be applied just as well to Māhāmudra (and thus trekchö). Tögal is not as straightforward because there are different views about how to interpret visual experiences which was discussed heavily somewhere in this https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=41619.

Malcolm wrote:
If one has this idea, "Second, in the context of post-meditation, you should make precise distinctions, which means you should be a rangstongpa regarding things that are intrinsically empty and a gzhanstongpa regarding that which is extrinsically empty," one is very far away the meaning of the Great Perfection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2023 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


OdeKirk said:
Could you please explain what proper and improper Shentong would be in this case, and what too much negation looks like for Prasangika?

ThreeVows said:
Oh, improper shentong basically doesn’t properly assimilate the sharp sword of the second turning of establishing all dharmas as empty, and so the conceptualizing mind isn’t overcome, and then there is a tendency to have an idea of Buddha nature that is basically a mundane dharma that is taken to be real. This is basically a realist, eternalist view. Which also can be provisionally useful in some contexts.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no proper gzhan stong, all gzhan stong is a warped mashup of yogacara, tathagatagarbha, and Madhyamaka. And, according to my teacher, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, incompatible with Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2023 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
Kai lord said:
Generally Nyingma does not agree the view in tantras = view in sutras, on the ultimate nature or empty aspect of dharmas or phenomenas, yes they are the same.

However on the relative side or clarity aspect (the primordial wisdom) and the union/indivisibility of two truths, Nyingma in general, views the tantras as superior and dzogchen as the supreme.

And this got nothing to do with shentong or rangtong.

Malcolm wrote:
On the other hand, Longchenpa clearly states that the prasanga view is the most compatible with Dzogchen. And he never once mentions gzhan stong in his entire corpus of writing. I suspect it is because he disagrees with their use of three own natures. He clearly places yogacara below Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2023 at 8:26 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:


ThreeVows said:
Improper shentong veers towards a realist view basically of phenomena, or at least one particular phenomenon.

I would presume, perhaps, that you - Malcolm - don’t see things this way, which is fine. Fwiw.

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa’s own view follows prasanga, quite explicitly. He declares it is the definitive sutrayana view in the treasury of siddhanta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 22nd, 2023 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Clarification on Nyingma view of emptiness
Content:
OdeKirk said:
Rangtong argues for a nihilistic view of emptiness without luminosity/Buddha qualities...

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing as a rang stong school or position. It is strawman school invented by gzhan stong pas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 21st, 2023 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The origin of tarot cards is a gambling game brought by Mongols to Europe based on Vajrayāna initiation cards; the minor arcana represents four of the five buddha families; the major arcana was developed in Renaissance Italy, from the card game which was popular then.

HauntedHotel said:
Do you have citation for this?

Malcolm wrote:
http://mamluk.spiorad.net/history.htm

My novel contention is that Tibetan initiation cards inspired the designs we see, when Mongols carried them to Eastern Europe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 11:04 PM
Title: Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: What contemplation have you found most beneficial?
Content:
Mirror said:
In regards to your practice, understanding, coping with suffering, etc. whatever. What contemplation have you found most beneficial or important to you in any way? I'm looking for hearing your experience with contemplating.
I mean contemplation of impermanence, emptiness, interconnectedness, law of karma, death, sufferings of samsara, etc. Thank you very much for sharing your experience and thoughts.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN, "We are living in time, and time is passing."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment
Content:


Giovanni said:
Good post We see a number of posters who use the phrase “no self” and I wonder if they are conflating Buddhadharma with Vedanta. As you say in Buddhadharma there is no abiding self, but neither is there a doctrine of no -self or Oneness as expounded by Ramana Maharishi among others. But it may be that I have misunderstood the forum members position.

Malcolm wrote:
The four seals of Dharma as explained in Mahāyāna:

All compounded phenomena are impermanent.
All afflicted phenomena are suffering.
All phenomena are without self.
Nirvana is peaceful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment
Content:
master of puppets said:
It is often been saying there is no self here, how come the past lives??

PadmaVonSamba said:
“There is no self”
is an incorrect understanding.
The correct understanding is:
“No self can be found in composite phenomena”
(things, people, etc).

Malcolm wrote:
No self can be found in uncompounded phenomena either. Ergo, since no self can be found in all phenomena, there is no self. On the other hand, they’re a no problem with a nonexistent self that is imputed on the aggregates, and Buddha had no problem accepting this nonexistent, imputed, nominal self at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 9:00 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual , if you will
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
With the right setup it’s quite possible in todays day and age to get in depth teaching via Zoom, regardless of the transmission question.

stong gzugs said:
Indeed! Plenty of Bön teachers provide full dzogchen teachings over Zoom and while they encourage students to attend the teachings live, they also send out video recordings afterwards, and never suggest that those who only watch the recordings are missing out in any way, shape, or form.

Bapho said:
and with this post we go back "a couple of steps" in all Malcolm's explanations. There is no case

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a legal case, but if you think you can have a recording for a teacher, go for it. You’re free to delude yourself anyway you like. After all, we have all been doing so for infinite eons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual, if you will
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is just not part of our tradition. This is more akin to Hindu woo woo.

stong gzugs said:
Come to think of it, is there really no Buddhist equivalent of Hindu śaktipāta?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual , if you will
Content:


ThreeVows said:
To be clear, I said nothing about spontaneous in the sense of without conscious awareness, I said things need not be formal in the sense that there is necessarily any particular external structure in place.

Malcolm wrote:
Didn't say you did, but I have met people who have such ideas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual , if you will
Content:
Zoey85 said:
I'll take the risk of sharing too much in terms of personal experience with this story: When I met the great yogi Drubwang  Rinpoche, he mainly just laughed a lot and said the mani mantra. Nothing about giving DI, in fact, he was yelling at people and criticizing them for wanting the highest teachings.

And yet, during that meeting I received the most crystal clear pointing out that I have ever received from any Master, maybe apart from Chokling Rinpoche.

So what's this about? Is it just that I had already received DI from my root Lama so the whole thing didn't need to be set up as a formal Direct Introduction?

ThreeVows said:
IMO deeply realized individuals are basically constantly giving any number of transmissions whether formally or not. Sometimes not formally at all really, in terms of some explicitly stated formal thing. FWIW.

Of note, this may not always be to human beings.

Zoey85 said:
Right, which is also why I didn't necessarily think it would matter if someone, for example, watched a prerecorded webcast transmission with the intention to receive DI from someone qualified to give it, and then entered the same contemplation that the guru was in wherever he was while the student was watching, since his stability in rigpa and previous/present aspirations to liberate all beings is continuous.

Though if someone is a virgin, then it of course seems ideal to receive it in person, with the acknowledgement in words that this is happening and so on.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem is that apart from the buddhas, no one's rig pa is whole. Even the rig pa of bodhisattvas on the bhumis is fragmented. So it requires intention on the part of both teacher and student. We call this and that teacher a "buddha" but if we are honest, all these "buddhas" at best are just on the lower stages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual , if you will
Content:
Zoey85 said:
I'll take the risk of sharing too much in terms of personal experience with this story: When I met the great yogi Drubwang  Rinpoche, he mainly just laughed a lot and said the mani mantra. Nothing about giving DI, in fact, he was yelling at people and criticizing them for wanting the highest teachings.

And yet, during that meeting I received the most crystal clear pointing out that I have ever received from any Master, maybe apart from Chokling Rinpoche.

So what's this about? Is it just that I had already received DI from my root Lama so the whole thing didn't need to be set up as a formal Direct Introduction?

ThreeVows said:
IMO deeply realized individuals are basically constantly giving any number of transmissions whether formally or not. Sometimes not formally at all really, in terms of some explicitly stated formal thing. FWIW.

Of note, this may not always be to human beings.

Malcolm wrote:
What Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explained as this: one should regard all of one's master's conduct as instruction. But direct introduction is something very precise and specific. It is not something just happens spontaneously (though now of course someone will contradict me and claim the opposite). For example:

Nyoshul Lungtok had not asked him anything that evening, and Patrul Rinpoche called him over, saying: “Didn’t you tell me that you still hadn’t got the main point of the practice of Dzogchen?” Nyoshul Lungtok replied: “Yes, that’s right”.
“It’s very simple”, he said, and lying down on the ground, he beckoned to him: “My son, come and lie down here like your father”. So Nyoshul Lungtok did so. Then Patrul Rinpoche asked him, in a very affectionate way: “Do you see the stars in the sky?”
“Yes”.
“Do you hear the dogs barking from the Dzogchen monastery?”
“Yes.”
“Do you hear what I am saying to you?”
“Yes.”
“Well, the nature of Dzogpachenpo is just—simply this.”
At this moment, everything fell into place, and instantaneously Nyoshul Lungtok was completely realized.

You see in this case, Nyoshul had very intellectual ideas, and Patrul knew how to collapse his student's fabrications through this experience of clarity. But this is not spontaneous, this arose after many months of teachings, etc. Someone is likely to bring up the shoe and Naropa, again, the result, in this case of many years of training under Tilopa. The point is that in these cases, realizing the primordial state is not just some function of some yoga's enlightened vibe that students can then imbibe. It's the result of working with the teachings in an open and honest way, without a lot of concepts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
natusake said:
So it is this mutual participation factor that is key?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is what I have been saying for many pages now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


ThreeVows said:
I understand, I thought it would be clear contextually that I specifically meant that the teacher would be intending to give DI during this time.

Malcolm wrote:
If everyone understood the main points, and was prepared in a proper way, then it would work. If not, then not. In this case the practice was a practice of guru yoga that included direct introduction. The main limitation we have in this instance is time, not distance. Why? Because we live in time, we are not beyond time. Even our teachers are not beyond time, not even the Buddha. If he was, he would still be present among us. Since are limited by time, some coordination is necessary.

The problem is that these kinds of things easily become meaningless rituals if people do not truly understand what is involved. Even direct introduction can become an empty ritual, and worse, a crutch. The main job of a Dzogchen practitioner, once they have been introduced, is to introduce themself with various methods again and again until their doubt is removed. The reason there are so many different methods and styles of introduction, from simple explanation to full scale major empowerments, is that people are different and have differing expectations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


ThreeVows said:
Given what you have said, it basically seems that you are saying what is necessary is for the teacher and student to both be present with the same intention at the same time. It doesn't seem like audio or visual input is absolutely necessary, although typically that is used.

Malcolm wrote:
The teacher and student together need to use an experience, such as clarity, for example. Direct introduction is done on the basis of experience.

ThreeVows said:
You have said that ChNN used to use the recordings prior to livestreams to coordinate the experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. He was participating in a specific practice which we would all do together in different places around the world at the same time. This state of affairs only continued for a very short time.

ThreeVows said:
Again, if there was some realized dzogchen yogi with great compassion for beings, if such a thing is effective enough, I don't quite understand why they shouldn't or wouldn't just say, "Every week at 5 PM on Friday, you can put on that recording, and I will be in the state of contemplation with the appropriate intention. This will serve as direct introduction for anyone with a sincere interest that tunes in at that time with the proper intention."

Malcolm wrote:
There needs to be some kind of experience that everyone participates in, including the teacher, on the basis of an explanation of the principles involved, which they have clearly understood. I am not sure why you are not understanding this point. For example, we use the experience of bliss in a tantric empowerment.

ThreeVows said:
Again, perhaps there are reasons not to do so, for example related to not establishing connections with beings without a sincere interest, related to how if it is a more infrequent thing then there is the opportunity for people to sort of build up appropriate merit and sort of interest in the event, etc. But from a sort of technical point of view, and a coarse point of view, I see no reason why some compassionate teacher in today's day and age wouldn't or couldn't do that, and that would hypothetically allow any number of people to get pointing out.

Malcolm wrote:
A yogi sitting in samadhi isn't pointing out anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


ThreeVows said:
Given what you have said, it basically seems that you are saying what is necessary is for the teacher and student to both be present with the same intention at the same time. It doesn't seem like audio or visual input is absolutely necessary, although typically that is used.

Malcolm wrote:
The teacher and student together need to use an experience, such as clarity, for example. Direct introduction is done on the basis of experience. Yogis sit in contemplation all the time; but they are not introducing anything. In any case, samadhi alone cannot cause introduction, and I never suggested anywhere it could.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:



Zoey85 said:
I don't have much of an opinion either way about DI via webcast, whether in "real time" or recorded. But if what ThreeVows mentioned above (ie the intention of the student and teacher to be in the same state at the same time) is valid then it seems entirely possible to receive DI even through a recording, because it's not like our gurus are abiding in contemplation only during the webcast and then afterwards go back to watching soap operas and forgetting to abide.

Malcolm wrote:
It also has to do with their active participation in the act of introduction, hence, must be live. And thus, the reason CHNN rejected the idea that taking a recorded empowerments was at all valid. If it were the case, than just reading an empowerment would be equally valid, but no one accepts this.

Zoey85 said:
I see. So there is a projected intention that they somehow don't have when they are just abiding at home or something?

Malcolm wrote:
Can you introduce someone to someone else just by hanging out at home? It requires some intention on the part of the teacher, which is why it is called an "introduction."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:



Zoey85 said:
I don't have much of an opinion either way about DI via webcast, whether in "real time" or recorded. But if what ThreeVows mentioned above (ie the intention of the student and teacher to be in the same state at the same time) is valid then it seems entirely possible to receive DI even through a recording, because it's not like our gurus are abiding in contemplation only during the webcast and then afterwards go back to watching soap operas and forgetting to abide.

Malcolm wrote:
It also has to do with their active participation in the act of introduction, hence, must be live. And thus, the reason CHNN rejected the idea that taking a recorded empowerments was at all valid. If it were the case, than just reading an empowerment would be equally valid, but no one accepts this.

ThreeVows said:
Why wouldn't someone like ChNN just say, "Every day at 5 PM until 5:05 I am going to be actively in a state of contemplation and anyone who wants to can join me"?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
ThreeVows said:
is it simply about the intention to both be in the same state at the same time, basically?

Malcolm wrote:
This.

Zoey85 said:
I don't have much of an opinion either way about DI via webcast, whether in "real time" or recorded. But if what ThreeVows mentioned above (ie the intention of the student and teacher to be in the same state at the same time) is valid then it seems entirely possible to receive DI even through a recording, because it's not like our gurus are abiding in contemplation only during the webcast and then afterwards go back to watching soap operas and forgetting to abide.

Malcolm wrote:
It also has to do with their active participation in the act of introduction, hence, must be live. And thus, the reason CHNN rejected the idea that taking a recorded empowerments was at all valid. If it were the case, than just reading an empowerment would be equally valid, but no one accepts this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual, if you will
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
What I find strange is that people resist some terms, ie. transmission, as such, no matter what the context -- even if ChNN himself relied on them (always clarifying what he meant, of course).

Malcolm wrote:
I am not resisting the term "transmission" I am resisting the term "mind-to-mind transmission" as that is not what is meant nor is it what is happening.

But what is happening in Dzogchen is one is being introduced to a state of knowledge. You never find the word "transmit" (gzhan du 'pho ba, lit. shift to another) in Dzogchen texts. You find the word "introduce" (ngo sprod). What ChNN was trying point out is that there is a continuum of knowledge being introduced, from inferential knowledge, which is conceptual, to direct perception, which is nonconceptual. Is Rinpoche's contemplation a necessary component? Of course. Is it something he is transmitting this to others, shifting it to his students. No. Is it supporting others? I sure think so. But it is secondary factor. The main factor is that one discovers one's own state and rests in that knowledge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual, if you will
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
He also said, repeatedly, now I try to transmit, and you try to be in that state.

I mean, why fight the phrase if, when used, it is properly contextualised?

Malcolm wrote:
Because you haven't done so.

What he was talking about was the experience the teacher induces in the student that serves as the basis for recognition: clarity or nonconceptuality, depending on the type of introduction. The we would all enter into that experience together at the same time

treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, he repeatedly said that his job was to transmit the knowledge. He used these very words. This sure is a shortcut. But he himself used it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, just in the same way that the knowledge of the word empowerment is communicated based on the experience of the bliss of the third empowerment. So-called direct introduction, the famous rig pa'i rtsal dbang, is just an elaborated version of the fourth empowerment, albeit, not restricted to using the experience of bliss, it can also be based on the experience of clarity or nonconceptuality.

The problem here is the english idea of "transmission." The Tibetan term he was using for "transmission" was "lineage" (brgyud). There are three lineages in Dzogchen teachings and in Nyingma in general, which are often framed in a historical context: Samanatbhadra --> Vajrasattva --> Garab Dorje (dgongs brgyud, usually translated as mind lineage, though this is incorrect); Garab Dorje --> Mañjuśrīmitra, etc.(symbolic transmission, brda brgyud)--> to Nyan --> (aural lineage, snyan brgyud). From this point of view, all we have is the snyan brgyud, the aural lineage and it is all we can access. But ChNN had a slightly different understanding of these three terms, and sought to clarify what he felt was the real purport and he termed the dgongs brgyud "direct transmission."  This is due to an ambiguity in the term brgyud, which meens "connecting one after another without interruption." For example a road from Lhasa to Beijing is a considered a "brgyud." This is also why it has to be live and experiential.

For example, we say there is a lineage from dharmakāya Samantabhadra, to sambhogakāya Vajrasattva, and thence to nirmāṇakāya Garab Dorje, which we call the "rgyal ba dgongs brgyud," the lineage of the transcendent state of the victors. But the truth is that this is not really a lineage in any historical sense, unlike the Dzogchen lineage from Garab Dorje onward. This is why he says we use Ati Guru yoga to be in that state together at the same time. This state is the state of the dgongs pa, the transcendent state, of all buddhas. It is something we discover, it is not something properly speaking, that is transmitted in a dualistic manner. It is something the guru assists us in discovering for ourselves individually, but it does not come from the guru. That's impossible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual, if you will
Content:


ThreeVows said:
It does seem reasonable enough that there is a sort of power, a sort of magnetic power, where a teacher can sort of bring a being into 'resonance', similar to how if you take a C tuning fork and bring it next to another C tuning fork, the second fork will start vibrating with the first one. Or if someone with strong samadhi, as was mentioned, practices with someone with weaker samadhi, it may sort of bring the second person into 'resonance'.

This doesn't involve any 'transference', but in terms of our normal words and what not, I don't see any reason to resist the idea of some amount of 'telepathy' if we consider 'telepathy' to simply be some aspect of communion or communication that is more subtle than coarse physical contact or verbal contact, some more or less unseen force that most ordinary people wouldn't necessarily consider.

Malcolm wrote:
Such a phenomena is never discussed in all of the texts where the principles of introduction are addressed. It is just not part of our tradition. This is more akin to Hindu woo woo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual, if you will
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
He also said, repeatedly, now I try to transmit, and you try to be in that state.

I mean, why fight the phrase if, when used, it is properly contextualised?

Malcolm wrote:
Because you haven't done so.

What he was talking about was the experience the teacher induces in the student that serves as the basis for recognition: clarity or nonconceptuality, depending on the type of introduction. The we would all enter into that experience together at the same time


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual, if you will
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
To be honest, I do not really understand whence the resistance towards the idea that "something like telepathy," or a magic of sorts, is involved in wangs, of whatever form, broadcast or attended in person.

It requires the student to have telepathy.
I do not think that the idea that something is transmitted is necessarily wrong, either.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN explicit rejected the idea of "Now I am giving you something" and the student thinking, "Now I am receiving something."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual , if you will
Content:


Könchok Thrinley said:
I am sorry but what do you mean by this?

Malcolm wrote:
The purpose of Dharma study is to reduce concepts, not induce more.

I have provided a clear explanation of the subject, if people would simply calm down and absorb it, but people are still engaging in speculations and thought experiments, worrying about time delays and proximity.

Simply put, all the same objections to real-time webcast transmissions can be applied to IRL transmissions. Someone even brought up synaptic delay.

This all utterly misses the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:



Lingpupa said:
I did not know that! So this means that those. like Malcolm, who are committed to ChNRR's line, DO believe in the validity of DI from recordings!

Malcolm wrote:
Nope. The video was merely for coordinating the practice in real time. As soon as webcasts became possible, ChNN abandoned this method. As I said, you are suffering from a serious, dualistic, misconception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
not_z said:
But it is precisely because the basis is already there and has never departed and is pure from the beginning...

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa is not the basis.

not_z said:
It is the knowledge of the basis, right? In any case my point of confusion doesn’t change, because neither is received or absent.

Malcolm wrote:
Every sentient being has the basis, but no one recognizes it without a teacher. As it is says in the Tantra Without Syllables:

"Though the nature of vidyā pervades all, the dharmakāya is encountered in the instructions.”

As such, the nature of vidyā pervades all migrating beings, but they do not understand the instructions of the guru for encountering
the dharmakāya in direct perception. Vidyā cannot be found through an intellectual analysis of the body that is searched from head to foot. On the one hand, if it is asked whether vidyā exists in the body or not, it definitely exists in the body. On the other hand, [vidyā] is not nonexistent merely because it cannot be found through being sought with intellectual analysis. You are unable to find it because you lack the intimate instructions of the guru. Similarly, gold can be shaped by anyone who knows how to work with it, but the person who does not know how to shape it, nor how to refine it, nor how to smelt it and heat it, will not be able to work with gold, no matter how much intellectual analysis they perform. On the other hand, it is not the case that the gold itself is unworkable. Since there is an intimate instruction for refining it and so on, one can work with gold. The one who lacks the intimate instructions of the guru has no hope of buddhahood.

Even if vidyā could be found through the imputation and scrutiny of intellectual analysis, it cannot be stabilized by necessary cultivation because it cannot be known whether one has indeed found vidyā or not.  Therefore, in the beginning, a pure guru is very important. Afterward, one’s own cultivation and familiarity is very important.

Fire is produced through the meeting of two things: the meeting of a person’s hands with a spindle. Fire does not exist in the spindle,
[90b] nor does it exist in the hands of the person. Fire arises when three things meet: the hand, the spindle, and the fireboard. Similarly, though there is buddhahood in nondual dharmatā, it does not exist in one’s vidyā alone, which is insufficient. Likewise, a guru alone is insufficient. Also, one’s cultivation is insufficient. When these three things meet [vidyā, guru, and cultivation], buddhahood is a certainty.

Tantra Without Syllables, pp. 202-203


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 20th, 2023 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
not_z said:
But it is precisely because the basis is already there and has never departed and is pure from the beginning...

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa is not the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
yagmort said:
1.
ThreeVows said:
is it simply about the intention to both be in the same state at the same time, basically?

Malcolm wrote:
This.

yagmort said:
how does one know what state one's supposed to be in if that is the state one is only about to be introduced to?

Malcolm wrote:
This is why we have the aural and symbolic lineages, so you have an idea of what you are trying to discover.
2. Dependent origination depends on conventions, that is, appearances labeled according to their function...
are you saying dependent origination depends on a language?
A convention is an appearance which gets labeled. The word in English, "convention" is not a perfect word for vyavahāra, or tha snyad. When we speak of a convention, we are speaking of "an object of that is perceived, expressed, and then engaged."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
ThreeVows said:
is it simply about the intention to both be in the same state at the same time, basically?

Malcolm wrote:
This.

ThreeVows said:
In that case, if we accept for instance that Vimalamitra or Guru Rinpoche currently abide in the rainbow body and are clairvoyantly able to perceive our fervent prayers, why would it not be the case that a sincere aspirant could receive transmission from them? Rationally I wouldn't see a reason why we couldn't make such a request/prayer/aspiration and then basically be oriented towards receiving transmission from them.

Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is possible. ChNN received many transmissions in his dreams from various figures like Padmasambhabva, Gomadevi, and so on. The same applies to Dudjom Lingpa, JIgme Lingpa, KDL, and so on.

But there is a huge chance that you will just delude yourself. And none of these people received any transmissions from an inert book, or an inert recording.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
ThreeVows said:
is it simply about the intention to both be in the same state at the same time, basically?

Malcolm wrote:
This.

not_z said:
Intention is not enough.

Malcolm wrote:
It is, because you have a group of people intending the same thing at the same time in collaboration with each other.

not_z said:
as the thought experiments about the (unknown) video delay shows.

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn't show that, actually, since it is based on a misconception to begin with: to whit, that there is a ball being thrown by a pitcher to a catcher. I have already explained that why this is a misconception at length.

For example, ChNN often enough would repeat introductions if a webcast had a sufficiently bad lag or it was interrupted.

He was always quite explicit that distance did not matter, but that live participation was essential, and that one could not receive transmissions of any kind, including lungs, from recordings. One label it a dogma if one likes, but those who claim empowerments and lungs can be received from recordings have no justification for their position for many reasons that I have explained elsewhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
ThreeVows said:
is it simply about the intention to both be in the same state at the same time, basically?

Malcolm wrote:
This.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual , if you will
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
Since the objects of the senses of the student i.e. the screen and the audio, are identical in either case, it's hard to understand what the missing part is. Simply the student's intellectual knowledge that the master is also doing it live at the same time?

Then there's also the issue of delay of the webcast. The DC webcast delay could be quite significant at times, not just a few seconds, but many minutes - so 'not quite live' is obviously still acceptable.

Malcolm wrote:
So many concepts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a manual , if you will
Content:
Sherab Rigdrol said:
ChNN he was giving direct introduction all the time, which IMO is why the several minute delay never made a difference

not_z said:
This is one of the reasons why some teachers say that recordings are valid introductions.

Malcolm wrote:
If this is the case, the reading a book is sufficient. But no one agrees to this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


Sherab Rigdrol said:
Simultaneous participation IS the cause for DI to work.

not_z said:
This is precisely what I am trying to understand, why is that the case? Telepathy, with all of its strange sounding connotations, at least is a reason, a bad one insofar as that does not seem to be what is happening, but still.

Malcolm wrote:
If it is not at the same time, it is not direct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 9:14 PM
Title: Re: Teachings from 17th Karmapa
Content:
ZopaChotso said:
I do not follow the Karmapa, so I cannot help much, but you may find good info at dakini translation! The lady there transcribes teachings by the Karmapa often.

Also, to nitpick, there is a KARMA kagyu schism, not a kagyu schism. There is more to kagyu than just karma kagyu

Malcolm wrote:
Not so, the Drukpas dropped Kagyu from their name.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


Lingpupa said:
Allow me to suggest that you read my words with more attention. I have not said that I "don’t believe in DI through a webcast". True, I have my doubts about it, but what I have said is that IF one "believes in DI via webcast" but does not believe in DI via recorded webcast, you have to accept some kind of spooky action at a distance, as Einstein said in a different context.

Malcolm wrote:
Thus is what you assert, but I have explained how you are mistaken, according to you, there would have to be spooky action even if you were sitting at the teachers feet, and you have to accept your contention that there is no reason one could not receive transmission from a recording. Live is live, whether one is three feet or three thousand miles. Before webcasts, ChNN coordinated direct introductions by means of video tape three time a year on “transmission day,” where he would watch, and people in different places would watch, all doing the empowerment practice together at the same time, having had the procedure explained to them before hand. ChNN maintained always that distance was not an issue, only time.

There is nothing spooky about discovering the state of instant presence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Alex is unconvinced by Malcolm, and Malcolm by Alex is there for the world to see.

Malcolm wrote:
Alex is mistaken in so far there is no basis for assuming mind to mind communication between people who lack the capacity of knowing the minds of others. The Buddha could not place the state of awakening in unawakened peoples minds. If he could, he would have done so.

Alex’s objection is based on a misunderstanding. He fails to understand the intended point, which is that direct transmission (dgongs brgyud), or transcendent state lineage, refers not really to a transmission, but the discovery of the transcendent state (dgongs) of the sugatas, which is necessary in order to practice the four chokzhag. This is what direct introduction is for, that’s all, based on the aural transmission or lineage, (snyan brgyud) and the symbolic transmission or lineage (brda brgyud).

One has to understand what this dgongs pa is, in order to understand the point being made.

Dgongs refers to tan uninterrupted concentration, beyond temporary, contrived mental one-pointedness and sessions. We can discover this for ourselves, based on working with a qualified teacher. We don’t receive this from a teacher.  We discover this for ourselves by collaborating with a teacher, and preparing ourselves through listening to and understanding the words and symbols of the explanation. It’s is an active process of collaboration. The teacher has something to do, as does the student. The teacher explains, the student listens, and then student tries to discover that knowledge for themselves while the teacher is present with them, based on the experiences of bliss, clarity, or nonconceptuality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


Könchok Thrinley said:
Me too btw. Let us not forget that still webcast transmissions are a grey area. It might be obvious to you, however the rest are able to hold their views.

Malcolm wrote:
This is nit the case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 11:26 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
Bapho said:
1)The state discovered thanks to the "direct introduction" is outside the dependent origin chain but not the form of introduction ?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Bapho said:
Although the state itself does not have cause. Not recognizing this state "Rigpa", Ma rigpa is produced and with it the
dependent origin (1)

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 9:52 AM
Title: Re: Writing a last will
Content:
Toenail said:
I want to write a last will to enforce wholesome decisions when I die. In the Buddhist sense, what would be a good decision? I tend to being burned and not buried. Less attachment that way and I find this death cult of the west of caring for a grave for 30 years kinda creepy. Ashes to ashes. I am curious to see what other practitioners included in their last will. This is a privilege of people in the West. I am 31 and I can die soon.

Malcolm wrote:
Sea burial.

Toenail said:
Why is it good from A Buddhist perspective?

Malcolm wrote:
Carbon neutral, food for fish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 8:48 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In the case of a traditional empowerment, it’s impossible to receive  one through a recording for reasons I have explained elsewhere and in detail. To suggest otherwise,represents a complete misunderstanding of dependent origination. The same goes for Dzogchen transmissions. Based on your reply, I am not sure you really understand what “employing ye shes as the path” really means.

Your error here is assuming that diversity vanishes in a state of contemplation.

natusake said:
Then what does "employing ye shes as the path" really mean? What have I misunderstood of dependent origination?

When I say "no x, no y", that just means no conceptual limitations, not no distinctions at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Dependent origination depends on conventions, that is, appearances labeled according to their function. Things like transmissions, etc., are all based on conventions, including how the state of Dzogchen is introduced, as well as the path to realize that state for oneself.

“Employing ye shes as the path” is something you need to learn from your guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 7:57 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


natusake said:
There are many layers of nuance involved, and clearly there will be barriers for those that set up barriers, which is most people; but, I am skeptical that it is impossible for empowerments to be received by recordings. It is, after all, only because of a dependent origination that there can be a recording at all. That being the case, the question arises whether dependent origination itself is limited, to which there is only one correct answer. It is reasonable that the unique situation of a recording calls for methods unique to that, that's all.

Malcolm wrote:
In the case of a traditional empowerment, it’s impossible to receive  one through a recording for reasons I have explained elsewhere and in detail. To suggest otherwise,represents a complete misunderstanding of dependent origination. The same goes for Dzogchen transmissions. Based on your reply, I am not sure you really understand what “employing ye shes as the path” really means.

Your error here is assuming that diversity vanishes in a state of contemplation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


stong gzugs said:
A clear answer to these questions would likely resolve the matter: If a teacher gave Jim oral instructions and, although Jim didn't realize the state of dzogchen when he was receiving these instructions, he practiced the instructions diligently and realized the state of dzogchen later on, what is Jim missing that he would have gotten if he was in the state at the same time as the teacher? If Jim continued practicing these instructions without ever again sitting with a teacher in the same state of dzogchen at the same time, is there anything stopping him from completing the path because he didn't?

Malcolm wrote:
He isn't missing anything. There is no problem with this, since by receiving the first two transmissions he is now properly ripened and can practice various dzogchen methods because the teacher in this instance is communicating that teaching from their authentic knowledge. And since we are using experiences, for example, like bliss in the third empowerment, the nature of which is then pointed out in the fourth, there is in fact an underlying experience the student can carry with them on the path, even if they were not able to enter into knowledge of their own state.

And there is nothing to impede this person from realizing the path later. Most people in fact discover their own state after having received transmission and then go practice on their own.

However, there is a reason to meet with one's teacher again. For example, if someone is weak in caṇḍalī yoga, what do you do? You get four other yogis who are strong in the practice and they practice together, seating the weaker practitioner in the center of the group. This will reinforce the capacity of the weaker person. If a weaker musician plays with a better musician, they will also become better. Similarly, when one practices guru yoga with one's teacher, even if one has already discovered one's primordial state, one's contemplation will become stronger, just as ten candles will shed more light in toto than one candle will on its own.

It is well known among yogis that being in the presence of someone who has strong samadhi can induce samadhi in others. But that does not mean that samadhi has been transferred mystically from one person to another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Since you won't believe us, perhaps you will believe Chogyal Namkhai Norbu:

Lingpupa said:
You are doing that politicians' trick again of answering a question other than the one asked. I'll try again.

1) IF you want remote transmission via electronic systems to be deemed valid (I don't) AND you want them to be deemed invalid if delayed (even when what is shown to the student is EXACTLY the same) THEN you have to accept some kind of supra-physical inter-mental interaction.

Malcolm wrote:
No. You are mistaken. This is because you don't understand the point because apparently I have been unable to communicate it to you successfully.

Lingpupa said:
4) Point 1) is the main thing. You can't have it both ways.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not having it both ways, as you put it. The point is simple--for direct transmission, the student and the teacher, using specific experiences, need to be in the same knowledge at the same time. It really just means that the student discovers their own state, or enters their own state, at the same time the teacher is resting in their own state, like lighting two candles and placing them together. Candle a does not illuminate candle b, but when they are together, the light is brighter.

That state transcends duality, but the reason it does not transcend time is that we students and teachers are limited in time. For example, ChNN asked his teacher  Changchub Dorje for an empowerment. Changchub Dorje replied, "I already gave you empowerment in my dream." ChNN replied, "But that was your dream, I did not experience that empowerment." The Changchub Dorje understood that ChNN was stuck in a limitation, as we all are until we achieve total realization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:



not_z said:
For the joining to happen there must be some kind of communication between the state of the teacher and of the student...

Malcolm wrote:
If you paid attention to what ChNN said, that communication comes from oral and symbolic transmission, "The third method, the direct transmission, implies that one already has knowledge of the oral and symbolic transmission. Through these two, one has an idea of how to enter into the real nature, then by using different experiences together, and entering into that real nature at the same moment as the teacher, then there is the real possibility that one also receives the direct transmission."

SOV book, pg. 8

The passage I quoted above comes from the same page in this book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Writing a last will
Content:
Toenail said:
I want to write a last will to enforce wholesome decisions when I die. In the Buddhist sense, what would be a good decision? I tend to being burned and not buried. Less attachment that way and I find this death cult of the west of caring for a grave for 30 years kinda creepy. Ashes to ashes. I am curious to see what other practitioners included in their last will. This is a privilege of people in the West. I am 31 and I can die soon.

Malcolm wrote:
Sea burial.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


Lingpupa said:
My point, however still stands. If the validity of the transmission depends at least in part on the state of the lama's mind at the time, and if a remotely viewing participant can receive that transmission through this weak collaboration, but a remotely viewing participant receiving exactly the same digital input from a recording at a later time cannot because the lama is doing something else, then there must be some supra-physical emission radiating from the lama's mind reaching out across space (though not time) and affecting the students.

Malcolm wrote:
Since you won't believe us, perhaps you will believe Chogyal Namkhai Norbu:


transmission.jpg (44.64 KiB) Viewed 899 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Everyone agrees that the teacher must be resting in the state when giving the instructions over video.

Malcolm wrote:
Whether in person or over a webcast.

[/quote]
I don't yet understand why the teacher must be resting in the state the moment the student watches the instruction video, if we've set aside the telepathy stuff and the practical concerns about maintaining lineages. [/quote]

It has to do with being in the same state of nondual knowledge at the same time where there is no perception of a duality between one's own state and the teacher's state. It is the joining the teacher in a state of nondual contemplation that is the key, even if only for a moment. The primordial state is identical in all sentient beings. The ability to discover that state however depends on transmission from a teacher.

stong gzugs said:
I haven't seen a clear answer for why the teacher must also be in the state when the student receives the teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
You have.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


Lingpupa said:
But in a virtual "empowerment", whether in real time or via recording, the lama has no obvious knowledge of what the student is up to. He or she might have stood up, taken off his/her clothes and be dancing a jig for all the lama knows. Or fallen asleep over their beer.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case the student is not collaborating with the teacher.

Lingpupa said:
Even if he/she is sitting and paying attention, calling this "collaboration" is stretching a point, is it not?

Malcolm wrote:
In this case the student is collaborating with the teacher. Why? Because the teacher is already collaborating with the student.

Lingpupa said:
Intriguing attempt to develop a new definition of "collaboration". Good marks for trying, but... hmmm. Still, reinterpreting terms to suit the argument is all part of the fun, isn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/collaborate

Collaborate: to participate or assist in a joint effort to accomplish an end


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


Lingpupa said:
But in a virtual "wmpowerment", whether in real time or via recording, the lama has no obvious knowledge of what the student is up to. He or she might have stood up, taken off his/her clothes and be dancing a jig for all the lama knows. Or fallen asleep over their beer.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case the student is not collaborating with the teacher.

Lingpupa said:
Even if he/she is sitting and paying attention, calling this "collaboration" is stretching a point, is it not?

Malcolm wrote:
In this case the student is collaborating with the teacher. Why? Because the teacher is already collaborating with the student.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Since there is no teacher resting in a state of contemplation during a recording, it is just a recording; just as there is no mandala present during a recording since the mandala has been already dismantled.

stong gzugs said:
Thanks for the additional clarification. I guess statements like this quoted one above are what are confusing to me (and likely others on here). Another example: A teacher is resting in the state, gives the instructions which are relayed by video to one room of students in real-time, and relayed to another room of students immediately after the teacher has ended the instruction (but this room has no idea they are receiving the video on a delay). Why does the second room not get the introduction? If there's nothing "telepathic" why does the teacher have to be resting in the state when the video is being watched (which seems to imply something telepathic), rather than just when it is being recorded (which makes sense because then all the teacher is saying and doing is an expression of the state of dzogchen)?

Malcolm wrote:
It is only an issue if you think there is something which is being transferred. People forget this basic statement by the Buddha:

Misdeeds cannot be washed away with water, 
suffering cannot be removed with the hand, 
I cannot give you liberation, 
but I can show you a path.

Is there anything about this that is unclear?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
Josef said:
The teacher is explaining, the students are listening.
Based upon the instructions that are given the teacher and the student practice together and collaborate on transmitting the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

stong gzugs said:
This is helpful, thanks! But I guess it depends what you mean by "collaboration." In a one-on-one setting, the teacher is explaining and giving real-time instructions, the student is attempting to practice them, perhaps asking questions to the teacher, the teacher is responding to the questions and noticing how the student is practicing, which s/he responds to, etc... A teacher provides instructions while remaining in the state of dzogchen. A student attempts to practice those instructions, and hopefully realizes that state for him/herself. Why does it matter that they're doing these two activities at the same time (given that there isn't the kind of two-way back and forth)?

Malcolm wrote:
If the teacher is not in the state of contemplation when they are giving so-called "direct introduction," it is not authentic and no introduction is given at all. They are just repeating words. In this case, as I explain above, it is better that this person give a more formal empowerment, where at least a dependent origination is set up in a more formal way. The point is that the teacher has to give this through their authentic knowledge of Dzogchen contemplation while they are in that state of contemplation. But it is not the case they are transmitting some entity from one mind to another called "contemplation."

Since there is no teacher resting in a state of contemplation during a recording, it is just a recording; just as there is no mandala present during a recording since the mandala has been already dismantled.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
Lingpupa said:
Conundrum.

Malcolm wrote:
Not a conundrum.

Lingpupa said:
In short, if a virtual empowerment has to be in real time, I think you have to accept some supra-physical mind-to-mind action is going on. Interested in your views.

Malcolm wrote:
But the point is the teacher is giving those two introductions (oral and symbolic) from within the state of authentic knowledge of the state of Dzogchen (meaning they have actually realized the state of contemplation in question, called dgongs pa). As it happens, the student is often not capable of recognizing this state of knowledge, the transcendent state (dgongs pa) at the moment of introduction. This means they only received the oral and symbolic transmissions, and not the dgongs rgyud, the transmission of Dzogchen contemplation. Even so, they are then authorized to use Dzogchen methods to discover this state for themselves.

If the teacher cannot give introduction while resting in this state of contemplation (dgongs pa) or lacks confidence, it is better the teacher relies on a ritual method of giving Dzogchen transmission, such as an a formal empowerment, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 6:37 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:



Jules 09 said:
If you read my posts carefully you will notice that I have not used the word "telepathy". It's an English word and has connotations that some may find uncomfortable - not really the right word...

Josef said:
How would you describe "direct introduction" then?

Jules 09 said:
Can you describe it? That experience?


Malcolm wrote:
Further, if it is asked what is the system of liberation,
it is liberation through the meaning of the oral instruction.

Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra, pg. 72.

For sentient beings without realization,
each word must be understood with each meaning.
Therefore, connect the meanings with the words
and illustrate the great meaning with words.
Therefore, investigate the connection between the words and
meanings.
Though the illustrative words and letters
may not exist in utter purity itself,
because they remove mental doubts,
one should always be acquainted with the words.”

Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra, pg. 120

The transcendent state of all buddhas
is not words and syllables,
but appears like words and syllables.
Nevertheless, the great meaning is unravelled with words.

Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra, pg. 147


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
Jules 09 said:
It's called Direct Introduction.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just a fantasy.  And so:


serious.jpeg (79.02 KiB) Viewed 672 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:



Jules 09 said:
You need to experience it to know it.
For an authentic yogi...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


heart said:
The vidya that recognise the basis is not obscured, it is just not recognised.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is. What is never obscured is the basis itself.

The conscious aspect of the basis can be deluded. If we follow your system, one could never become deluded. Further, there would be knowledge (rig pa) and ignorance (ma rig pa) of the same thing (the basis) at the same time. In Buddhahood it is stated:
Since that so-called ‘the knower’ ( rig pa po ) or ‘the mind’ (the assertion of a special awareness demonstrated in our own texts) is deluded, for it example, that delusion that white smoke is yellow is a delusion of the eye, likewise, that [eye] becomes self-deluded.

heart said:
I feel it is pretty strange to distinguish the vidya that recognise the basis and the basis it self because then there is an obvious duality. Most masters when they say rigpa, they actually mean the basis recognised.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, when the basis is recognized, then there is vidyā. When it is not recognized, there is ignorance. But it is the same thing which is either recognizing or not recognizing the basis.

This is why we have the explanation of the ignorance of the same identical cause (not knowing one's own state, like being in deep asleep), the connate ignorance (nonrecognition of the appearances that arise from the basis, like being in a dream and not recognizing it), and the ignorance of imputation (our normal, everyday, waking, deluded vision).

The point is this really——that nonrecognition is transient. It is not inherent to the conscious aspect of the basis. That very state of nonrecognition is proof that vidyā is not contaminated, just as jaundiced vision is proof that one can see correctly when the jaundice is removed.  Vidyā is not inherently obscured. So sometimes we talk about mind, which arises from the contamination of the radiance of rig pa by karmic vāyus, for example. When those winds cease, the mind ceases, etc., and rig pa is exposed. When we say that rig pa has never been deluded, is not deluded, and can never be deluded, we are talking about the actual nature of the mind, which obscurations can never contaminate inherently In other words, while rig pa is permanent, ignorance is impermanent once ignorance's own real nature as rig pa is discovered.

Buddahood, pp. 47-48, states

As such, from not recognizing that rig pa and ma rig pa have the same cause, like the front and back of one’s hand, the
ma rig pa of the same identical cause arises from not coming to the ultimate nonduality. The connate that arises from that is a term of duality i.e. as soon as the conceit occurs “this is originally pure”, it is inseparable from that ma rig pa. Thus ma rig pa depends on rig pa. Delusion depends on non-delusion. As such, rig pa itself becomes ma rig pa That non-delusion becomes delusion. From that grasping subject and objects arises.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
If Buddhas or masters could telepathically direct us to recognition, or even provide blessings without us doing anything, we’d all be enlightened.

It’s a convention for people to think this way, but upon examination it seems like it cannot be true.

Jules 09 said:
You need to experience it to know it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


ThreeVows said:
Similarly, if one were to consider 'telepathy', it would require the proper 'ears' to hear and the proper mind to hear. Functionally not really any different than any other form of communication. Just with a different mechanism perhaps.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, the student would also have to be telepathic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


heart said:
The vidya that recognise the basis is not obscured, it is just not recognised.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is. What is never obscured is the basis itself.

The conscious aspect of the basis can be deluded. If we follow your system, one could never become deluded. Further, there would be knowledge (rig pa) and ignorance (ma rig pa) of the same thing (the basis) at the same time. In Buddhahood it is stated:
Since that so-called ‘the knower’ ( rig pa po ) or ‘the mind’ (the assertion of a special awareness demonstrated in our own texts) is deluded, for it example, that delusion that white smoke is yellow is a delusion of the eye, likewise, that [eye] becomes self-deluded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:



Jules 09 said:
No direct mind transmission/blessings of the lineage - really ??
Why do you say that?

Malcolm wrote:
For the same reason I say that tortoises do not have hair, rabbits have no horns, and barren women do not give birth to children.

"True blessings are the oral instructions on how to become enlightened in a single lifetime, which you can receive from a qualified master."
Tulku Urgyen, Vajra Speech, pg. 19


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:


Dawa Ösel said:
What exactly does "elaborate" , "unelaborate" and so on exactly mean? Never heard of that. Can you give an example?

Malcolm wrote:
It means exactly what it says. In Dzogchen there are for empowerments, elaborated to extremely unelaborated." What we call "direct introduction" is basically the third of these, the very unelaborated empowerment, which is generally considered the empowerment for trekchö. All of them however are complete, and the whole path of Dzogchen may be practiced on the basis of any of them.

Dawa Ösel said:
1. Never claimed to be a student of ChNNR (i mentioned i consider him a heart teacher of mine, cause his books, besides others, brought me to Dzogchen. Big difference.

Malcolm wrote:
When people call someone a "heart teacher," it usually means they have directly taken teachings from that person, not just read one of their books.

Dawa Ösel said:
2. No, i did not get that classification from ChNNR, as i said

Malcolm wrote:
Then they garbled ChNN's classification. In any case there is no such thing as a telepathic transmission. The crystal is just part of the symbolic transmission, because a crystal is just a symbol.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
Dawa Ösel said:
It's basically:

4. Thelepatical Transmission

Malcolm wrote:
No such thing. And your other answers are also incorrect. You have garbled Chogyal Namkha Norbu's explanation of the three transmissions——oral, symbolic, and direct (which is not telepathic in any sense whatsoever) and added your own fabrications. All four of the Dzogchen empowerments contain these three transmissions. But only a student who has successfully recognized instant presence can be said to have entered the direct transmission. Since you claim to be a student of ChNN's, you need to review the section on Transmission in the beginning of the Song of the Vajra book.

As someone else mentioned correctly, the four empowerents of the Great Perfection are the elaborated empowerment, the unelaborated empowerment, the very unelaborated empowerment, and the extremely unelaborated empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 18th, 2023 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: The lion, Simhamukha and no wardrobe
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
No escape from Aslan.

To be honest, I asked because I was curious about the history of the yidam and her representations. But since we have veered onto practice, I was wondering, Malcolm, what your take on such explanations of visualisation would be:

https://www.luminouswisdom.org/index.php/publications/gateway-to-the-vajrayana-path/3894-the-generation-stage

Malcolm wrote:
It's pretty standard.

treehuggingoctopus said:
But it is also quite far away from what you shared  here, or what ChNN taught,  isn’t it?

Malcolm wrote:
It is the Mahāyoga approach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 17th, 2023 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: The lion, Simhamukha and no wardrobe
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am sure we can visualize a lion face dakini in a modern context without relying on these earlier ideas.

lionface.jpg

treehuggingoctopus said:
No escape from Aslan.

To be honest, I asked because I was curious about the history of the yidam and her representations. But since we have veered onto practice, I was wondering, Malcolm, what your take on such explanations of visualisation would be:

https://www.luminouswisdom.org/index.php/publications/gateway-to-the-vajrayana-path/3894-the-generation-stage

Malcolm wrote:
It's pretty standard.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: Good book on meditation - a maual, if you will
Content:
august said:
Recommend a good book (English) with actual instructions for meditation. Something one can follow and put to practice. Dzogchen specific.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not possible without Dzogchen transmission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Sutra Question: We should never speak critically of dharma teachers?
Content:



Kai lord said:
Really? Because I have never heard of them mentioned that not even during teaching . But that would make sense since that lineage originated from Naropa.

Is that also true for the short Naro Khachoma lineage from Jamyang khyentse wangpo as well?

Malcolm wrote:
Really.

Kai lord said:
Ok I will take your word for it because I just checked the commentaries (including Gelug ones), its not there.....

Among the Sakya crowd that I am familiar with, they tend to think like Nyingma and like to emphasize how short Jamyang khyentse wangpo's VY lineage was which results in greater blessing. This might revolutionize their thinking for once.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s there. And it has nothing to do with JKW. It has to do with Cakrasamvara in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 7:40 PM
Title: Re: Sutra Question: We should never speak critically of dharma teachers?
Content:


Kai lord said:
Yes that is the same for all Kagyu traditions in general including Drikung, etc. They whole heartedly believe in the unbroken line of blessing by a stream of realized masters that accumulates and snowball one generation after another, resulting in every generation of practitioners receiving more blessings than the one that came before it.

Its truly an unique feature not found in other schools.

Malcolm wrote:
That's false. The Sakyapas and Gelukpas hold the same view of Naro Khachoma lineage in particular.

Kai lord said:
Really? Because I have never heard of them mentioned that not even during teaching . But that would make sense since that lineage originated from Naropa.

Is that also true for the short Naro Khachoma lineage from Jamyang khyentse wangpo as well?

Malcolm wrote:
Really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 2:20 PM
Title: Re: Sutra Question: We should never speak critically of dharma teachers?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No one is suggesting you should be silent about something you know is wrong. I am suggesting however that no one is solely defined by their sins, imagined or real.

BareBones said:
I agree with you - in the case of Trungpa, the man clearly had insight. This is what makes him so tragic. In any case, I do not believe we need to "bury" these people. But we can't afford to lie about them, either. In Trungpa's case, it's genuinely incredible how long it has taken for people to really acknowledge that something was wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
I agree. That’s why when people claim, based on authority, that someone like Trungpa was a “mahasiddha,” I don’t agree. On the other hand, to discount his influence would be a mistake, and that goes for Sogyal as well. Talented people f**k up, dramatically so. The problem in Tibetan Buddhism is the myth of authority. But Tibetan Buddhism is facing its own crisis of coping with modernity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 10:27 AM
Title: Re: Sutra Question: We should never speak critically of dharma teachers?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Would it be wrong to speak negatively of the Karmapa, Sogyal, and Trungpa?

Malcolm wrote:
All three of these men have benefitted the Dharma in many ways. The personal conduct of all three of these men is quite questionable in some areas.

BareBones said:
I don’t think we’ve seen the full flowering of their deeds yet. And I don’t mean this in a positive way.

I don’t know much about the Karmapa’s situation, but Sogyal and Trungpa have greatly damaged the reputation of the Vajrayana. And with regard to Trungpa, I don’t even think the general public are fully aware of the extent of his misdeeds. The recent drama with HHDL (which is not the same, but is spreading like wildfire online) is likely to increase scrutiny.

I fear for our tradition. We’ve been way, way too lax about confronting bad behavior - and especially too lax about confronting bad behavior hiding itself behind tantric rhetoric.

I swear I will NEVER keep silent about something I know to be wrong. I don’t care about the scare tactics invoked to ward off criticism. Hiding and enabling charlatanry and perversion out of personal fear of the consequences of broken Samaya seems like a grosser violation of Samaya, if you understand that in a more expansive sense, than “criticism.” It makes a mockery of our tradition. It makes a mockery of guru devotion.

Malcolm wrote:
No one is suggesting you should be silent about something you know is wrong. I am suggesting however that no one is solely defined by their sins, imagined or real.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 10:08 AM
Title: Re: What are you watching? Any good?
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
…Christians' prosperity theology


Sādhaka said:
I had a friend who once told me in the early 2000’s that America was as prosperous as it was because it’s a mainly Christian country.

On the surface that’s utter nonsense; yet there is simultaneously some truth to it, because at least there was some aspiration toward good there as opposed to that recent trend of nihilism.

Good & bad are relative; yet, if you want good within samsara, then only good can beget good.

Malcolm wrote:
Christians have always been nihilists because of their belief in the apocalypse, indeed such beliefs were behind the Iraq war, and so on. There is no one more nihilistic than someone who thinks they are saved, and therefore beyond moral consequences.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: How to test the teacher
Content:
It'sYa1UPBoy said:
The Buddha told his monks not to speak publicly of their attainments precisely to head off any potential charlatans.

Malcolm wrote:
This actually does not apply to Mahāyāna monks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Sutra Question: We should never speak critically of dharma teachers?
Content:


Kai lord said:
Yes that is the same for all Kagyu traditions in general including Drikung, etc. They whole heartedly believe in the unbroken line of blessing by a stream of realized masters that accumulates and snowball one generation after another, resulting in every generation of practitioners receiving more blessings than the one that came before it.

Its truly an unique feature not found in other schools.

Malcolm wrote:
That's false. The Sakyapas and Gelukpas hold the same view of Naro Khachoma lineage in particular.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: The lion, Simhamukha and no wardrobe
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
How many heads, arms, and faces does rig pa have?

Könchok Thrinley said:
Oh sorry, I should have realized you have decided to switch to zen.

Malcolm wrote:
No, but the point is that divine pride is not related to visualizing anything. It is the strong identification, "I am [insert name of deity here].

For example, we have Yamantaka Vajrabhairava and his protector, but in reality, neither have a bulls head. The class of beings called Yamas have this appearance, which to us appears as a water buffalo head, but in reality, they do not have water buffalo heads.

Also, Tibetan thankha images depict Tibetan imaginations, just as the earlier Nepalese paintings represent Nepalese imaginations, for example this representation of Palden Lhamo from the 14th century:

https://www.himalayanart.org/items/13824


As opposed to this on from the 17th century:

https://www.himalayanart.org/items/330

These representations are conceptual approximations. I am sure we can visualize a lion face dakini in a modern context without relying on these earlier ideas.
lionface.jpg (493.73 KiB) Viewed 967 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: The lion, Simhamukha and no wardrobe
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, when the Boss says, "now you imagine you are Simhamukha," he speaks of "her lion face" (and details follow). So we definitely interpret, automatically or not, one way or another.

Malcolm wrote:
All I can say is that divine pride has little to do with art.

Könchok Thrinley said:
Sure, ofc. However, the visualization has a meaning. One does not have to be detailed, however if one wishes to be or it helps, then why not. And I can see how clearing up this form of doubt can only help with developing divine pride. I mean after all the face is quite impoortant not only in case of yidams, is it not?


Malcolm wrote:
How many heads, arms, and faces does rig pa have?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: The lion, Simhamukha and no wardrobe
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Right, which would be his gloss on all animal-faced/headed deities and protectors. That said, the question remains: we interpret their face as the common-or-garden variety lion's, correct?

Malcolm wrote:
I guess we don't interpret it at all, since it isn't an accurate interpretation.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, when the Boss says, "now you imagine you are Simhamukha," he speaks of "her lion face" (and details follow). So we definitely interpret, automatically or not, one way or another.

Malcolm wrote:
All I can say is that divine pride has little to do with art.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
krodha said:
Ok thanks. This is then referring to thögal because otherwise realized prajñā is only accessible to āryas, yes?

Malcolm wrote:
It's referring to both trekcho and thogal, since the key point of both is nakedly exposing rig pa. That is where the path of Dzogchen actually begins.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy on his lips and asks him to suck his tongue
Content:
Zhen Li said:
In this case, the HH remained silent for decades.

Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, this is false.

HHDL addressed the issue of abusive teachers many times. But you cannot expect him to get involved in dealing with every claim of abuse. With respect to Sogyal, HHDL did his best. HHDL is not to blame for Sogyal's sybaritic lifestyle. It's just too much to expect. Tibetan Buddhism is not a top down organization like Catholicism. It is rhizomatic and there is no complaint department. It is on the student to make sure their teacher is qualified. This is stated in too many texts to mention. Unless the teacher's conduct crosses the line into criminal behavior (as in the Spatz case), there is not much any lineage head can do. HHDL stated many times that people should go to the newspapers if they felt a teacher's conduct warranted it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: The lion, Simhamukha and no wardrobe
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Briefly put:

The dakini's head: Is it the lion's or the snow lion's?

Malcolm wrote:
Neither, according to ChNN. It is the face of a nonhuman being that we interpret as lion-faced.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Right, which would be his gloss on all animal-faced/headed deities and protectors. That said, the question remains: we interpret their face as the common-or-garden variety lion's, correct?

Malcolm wrote:
I guess we don't interpret it at all, since it isn't an accurate interpretation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 16th, 2023 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
heart said:
Interesting end to this discussion for me. I went to sleep and dreamed that I was spending a lot of time with ChNNR. He was living in the very north of my country and was very available. We where eating together and but I only remember discussing things like "panini" and that Rinpoche wanted one. When I woke up this morning from that dream I had clear understanding what khroda and Malcolm was trying to say in my mind. That all the different modalities of rigpa are the same rigpa and so on makes perfect sense. However I still feel there is no need to mature and ripen anything. No need to change or improve anything in the rigpa that recognise the basis.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, there is no need to ripen or change anything, unripened rig pa is a term for rig pa which has not been pointed out.

krodha said:
Although Longchenpa does at the very least say vidyā is “matured” along the path.

Tshig don mdzod:

de yang gzhi nas ’phags pa’i rig pa sa bon lta bu grol ’khrul gang byed ma nges pas ma smin pa’i rig pa zhes bya ste/ /sangs rgyas su smin par byed pa ni rtogs pa’i shes rab kyis byas te    

Furthermore, since the vidyā [rig pa] that arises from the basis is like a seed, uncertain to produce either liberation or delusion, it is called “unripened vidyā”: that which will mature it into full buddhahood is the prajñā of realization.

Khenpo Jikphun commentary by way of Jean-Luc Achard:

Therefore this state of vidyā [rig pa] is styled as “unripened” [ma smin pa] because it has not yet been “brought to maturity” through the prajñā or sublime knowledge that realises its very nature.

Seems to suggest there is a process of maturation or “ripening” that is occurring from (i) the time that we merely identify a moment of unfabricated consciousness, to (ii) realizing emptiness at third vision where the prajñā of realization is first encountered, to (iii) finally buddhahood at the time of the result. For example.

Malcolm wrote:
This prajña of realization is not the third vision. It occurs when rigpa is nakedly exposed. Otherwise, the path would not work. Here, in this context Longchenpa is discussing rig pa at the time of the arising of the basis, in the section on the liberation of Samantabhadra and the delusion of sentient beings.

The context that Vimalamitra cites the term in the context of a sentient being who is still subject to transmigration, but we know that anyone who nakedly exposes rig pa in a direct perception will no longer continue in samsara and will achieve realization in this life, the time of death, the bardo, or in a buddhafield.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Other religions and their achievements
Content:
Jokingfish said:
Can you say in few words, if possible, what practices exactly are different between Hinduism and Buddhism (i mentioned in previous posts their similarities, why aren't these similarities enough)?

Malcolm wrote:
Refuge, Bodhicitta, and View.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Kai lord said:
Disagreements are so common in Buddhism as it seems when one reads frequently, they are destined to come across tonnes of opposing views or alternative interpretations in tenets, completion stage practices, etc, each without a final resolution or conclusion to those debates, leaving the poor confused Buddhists to search the answer themselves. Almost as bad as the scientists arguing over various quantum interpretations.

Fortunately there are two means of acquiring knowledge in Buddhism, either through reasoning or direct experience. Those who find the former difficult, always have the second option open to them.

Malcolm wrote:
All debates about Dzogchen go to die in Longhchenpa and the original texts.

Yogis should not be in debates anyway.

Kai lord said:
Quite frankly, I have already lost count of how many debates you have taken part in for the past two decades (approximately).

Apparently those activities don't seem to affect your understanding at all.

Malcolm wrote:
I never claimed to be a yogi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: The lion, Simhamukha and no wardrobe
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Briefly put:

The dakini's head: Is it the lion's or the snow lion's?

Malcolm wrote:
Neither, according to ChNN. It is the face of a nonhuman being that we interpret as lion-faced.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 7:11 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
heart said:
Interesting end to this discussion for me. I went to sleep and dreamed that I was spending a lot of time with ChNNR. He was living in the very north of my country and was very available. We where eating together and but I only remember discussing things like "panini" and that Rinpoche wanted one. When I woke up this morning from that dream I had clear understanding what khroda and Malcolm was trying to say in my mind. That all the different modalities of rigpa are the same rigpa and so on makes perfect sense. However I still feel there is no need to mature and ripen anything. No need to change or improve anything in the rigpa that recognise the basis.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, there is no need to ripen or change anything, unripened rig pa is a term for rig pa which has not been pointed out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 7:19 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Kai lord said:
Disagreements are so common in Buddhism as it seems when one reads frequently, they are destined to come across tonnes of opposing views or alternative interpretations in tenets, completion stage practices, etc, each without a final resolution or conclusion to those debates, leaving the poor confused Buddhists to search the answer themselves. Almost as bad as the scientists arguing over various quantum interpretations.

Fortunately there are two means of acquiring knowledge in Buddhism, either through reasoning or direct experience. Those who find the former difficult, always have the second option open to them.

Malcolm wrote:
All debates about Dzogchen go to die in Longhchenpa and the original texts.

Yogis should not be in debates anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



heart said:
That vidya couldn't possibly be the vidya we are talking about here.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is. This is from Buddhahood, pg. 77

For example, from a commentary on the Cuckoo of Vidyā by Dorje Gyaltsen:
Now then, if it is asked “Is it not impossible for such a pure primal nature to appear to the mind of a person?” it is possible, called “vidyā”. The vidyā of migrating beings itself appears as the mental consciousness in terms of apprehending subjects and apprehended objects. When vidyā manifests its own primal nature, the mental consciousness manifests as self-originated pristine consciousness.

heart said:
Can you please read my answer to khroda above.

Malcolm wrote:
There is only one rigpa under discussion here, not two. As Longchenpa says in Stainless Space:

The essence of mind is the radiance of vidyā which is mounted on the vāyu.

And:

In addition, when mind comes and goes, vidyā is not truly evident. When vidyā remains in its own radiance, mind is not evident, seeming as though when one arises, the other ceases. However, when vidyā is stable, because the radiance of vidyā dissolves into the basis, mind ceases for a moment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



heart said:
How could vidya become mind? Mind is avidya.

krodha said:
Vimalamitra:

As such, knowledge (vidyā, rig pa) itself becomes ignorance (ma rig pa, āvidyā) and nondelusion becomes delusion.

heart said:
That vidya couldn't possibly be the vidya we are talking about here.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is. This is from Buddhahood, pg. 77

For example, from a commentary on the Cuckoo of Vidyā by Dorje Gyaltsen:
Now then, if it is asked “Is it not impossible for such a pure primal nature to appear to the mind of a person?” it is possible, called “vidyā”. The vidyā of migrating beings itself appears as the mental consciousness in terms of apprehending subjects and apprehended objects. When vidyā manifests its own primal nature, the mental consciousness manifests as self-originated pristine consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



Sādhaka said:
Ripening on the other hand (i.e. in your way of seeing it that is; correct me if I’m wrong again) implies that there’s an ego who intentionally or volitionally tries to ripen something.

Malcolm wrote:
No more than a fruit has an ego which causes its ripening. Ripening is something that happens naturally when the right conditions are present.

But here, the term is being misunderstood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
heart said:
So I stick with what my Guru told me and leave the gradual Dzogchen to you.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm, Magnus...I never advocated Dzogchen as a gradual or a sudden path, it is neither.

Moreover, my translation of the passage I shared with you is more than ten years old.

heart said:
Maybe, but you where not saying this 10 years ago. You said many times that Dzogchen isn't a gradual path but you seem to recently have changed your mind on that point.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I have not ever changed my mind on this point. You are misunderstanding the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
heart said:
So I stick with what my Guru told me and leave the gradual Dzogchen to you.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm, Magnus...I never advocated Dzogchen as a gradual or a sudden path, it is neither.

Moreover, my translation of the passage I shared with you is more than ten years old.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
heart said:
I am sorry Malcolm but since I don't know the context of these teachings it is difficult

Malcolm wrote:
It means that vidyā has not been exposed nakedly yet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Other religions and their achievements
Content:
Jokingfish said:
Do other religious practitioners get to be stream winners or more?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: H.E. Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Malcolm,

I figured someone would say something like that.

If you saw the progression of my posts in that other thread though, you’ll see that towards the end I admitted that I was hasty in my judgement, and would owe a apology to the 14th Dalai Lama based on new information that had come out.

I feel like a jerk now; and at the same time, if anything, this only reinforces what I just posted in reply to Gelukman here.

Malcolm wrote:
I did see the progression. But your statement rather reminded me of Jamie Tartt complaining to Ted Lasso about Zava being a self-centered jerk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Making sense of Lama Yeshe's Rebirth
Content:
Nalanda said:
How could Lama Yeshe, who's done great work, be reborn as a D-rate film maker?

Malcolm wrote:
Talent for Dharma might not translate into talent for film making.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Sutra Question: We should never speak critically of dharma teachers?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Would it be wrong to speak negatively of the Karmapa, Sogyal, and Trungpa?

Kai lord said:
For the first one on your list, He was prophesied to be a future Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, if he really is the incarnation of Karma Pakshi. But why should anyone believe this?

Kai lord said:
The second on your list, its claimed that he achieved Buddhahood during bardo.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a surprising claim, most Dzogchen practitioners attain liberation in the bardo of dharmatā. It's a guarantee of Dzogchen teachings. That has nothing to do with their actions in this life. Again, Vimalamitra:
After practicing this, even one who has committed the five limitless deeds [as they are not obscuring] will be liberated in this life.
But it certainly does not mean we cannot criticize or point out that this person harmed a Buddha, killed an arhat or one of their parents, or was a fully ordained bhikṣu who caused a schism in the Sangha, or was accused of raping a nun in their care.

In Dharma, we don't hold the view that people are irredeemably wicked, no matter how wicked they may be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 15th, 2023 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



heart said:
Feel free to quote Tulku Ugyen saying that vidya need to be matured and ripened.

dharmafootsteps said:
Surely if there was nothing to be matured/ripened, if that first glimpse was fully qualified, one would be an arya immediately upon the initial recognition of vidya, which we know is not the case for practically everyone.

heart said:
I already answered this. Once you recognised vidya in direct introduction the path is to familiarise yourself with that vidya. Vidya isn't matured or ripened it is only prolonged. And also if you don't get a "fully qualified" experience of vidya during direct introduction then you didn't get it.

Malcolm wrote:
Vimalamitra states in the Lamp that Summarizes Vidyā in the Variegated Syllables section of the Vima Nyingthig:
3.1 The vidyā that apprehends characteristics [when one is a beginner], called “the vidyā that nominally designates generic and specific phenomena,” is merely one’s clear and nonconceptual consciousness known to oneself, contaminated with many cognitions.

3.2 The [vidyā that] appropriates the basis [226] generates all the consciousnesses when present in one’s body and abides as mere intrinsic clarity. This is called “unripened vidyā,”

3.3 The vidyā of the abiding basis is the reality of the essence, original purity, that exists possessing the three pristine consciousnesses. The vidyā which is not covered by partiality [endowed with the nature of the pristine consciousness of compassion] is present as the essence of omniscient pristine consciousness...

3.4 The vidyā of insight is those vivid appearances when the instruction is demonstrated. It is called “the self-appearance endowed with the essence of the bindu."...

3.5 The vidyā of thögal is [227] the absence of increase or decrease in experience, having reached the full measure of appearance...

Are those [five] vidyās different or not? They are not different because there is nothing more than a single essence.
As for the relationship between vidyā and the three kāyas, he continues:
To confirm vidyā as the three kāyas: Vidya is empty and not established in any way. That also is the dharmakāya [which does not exist somewhere else]. It appears as clear and diverse, however, it is also natureless. That also is the sambhogakāya [which does not exist somewhere else]. Its various deeds are the play of compassion. That also is the nirmāṇakāya [which does not exist somewhere else]. [229] The three kāyas of vidyā are called “innate attributes.” When vidyā is still, the three kāyas are called “the transcendent state of the dhātu of the basis.” When vidyā arises, the three kāyas are called “the transcendent state that arises from the basis.” When vidyā is liberated, the three kāyas are called “the transcendent state of total liberation.” When vidyā is purified, the three kāyas are called “the transcendent state of original purity” [having reached the state of exhaustion].
Based on this we can understand the three kāyas are innate attributes of rig pa. Not only this, but we can understand that the three kāyas are just path experiences that exist in the basis, but not in the result.

heart said:
However, as aspects of clarity, the appearances of the path are not the result. [56b] In response to the question of why the appearances of the path are not the result, since they are illuminated for the doorway of the pure essence of the sense organ of the eye, the apparent aspect of the lamp is the path. Since the exponential increase of experience is the sambhogakāya, and vidyā reaching its full measure is the dharmakāya, the three kāyas are explained to be path appearances.

Malcolm wrote:
Blazing Lamp, pg. 130

heart said:
Furthermore, (1) the pristine consciousness of one’s vidyā is not within the range of wisdom; (2) it cannot be confirmed with words; (3) it cannot be sullied by misdeeds; [69a] (4) it cannot be improved through virtues; (5) it lacks distinction between sharp and dull faculties; (6) the three kāyas and the five pristine consciousnesses are not the result, but the path; and (7) delusion is the companion of the path, pristine consciousness. These seven points indicate the superiority of
the Natural Great Perfection over the common vehicles.

Malcolm wrote:
The Tantra Without Syllables, pg. 167


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Sutra Question: We should never speak critically of dharma teachers?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Would it be wrong to speak negatively of the Karmapa, Sogyal, and Trungpa?

Malcolm wrote:
All three of these men have benefitted the Dharma in many ways. The personal conduct of all three of these men is quite questionable in some areas.

Trungpa's books were the first Dharma books many of us read, myself included. His material, at the time, was groundbreaking. Also, the 1970's was a different time. Today, a teacher who behaved like Trungpa would not last five minutes. And even in the 70's there was considerable negative press about him. Negative press dogged Sogyal as well. Nevertheless, Sogyal's book sold millions of copies and in it many people were introduced to the Dharma.

Both Trungpa's and Sogyal's books are likely to fade into obscurity with time. There will always be another karmapa.

You have to decide what is the benefit of criticizing someone or being silent. In most cases, criticism is just bitching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: H.E. Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche
Content:
gelukman said:
I would say for the defense of many who accused of rape in Buddhism.
It is not simple true. As most masters are into commercialism, power trips and fame.
It is easy for these women to think later "He did not give me a fair share".


Sādhaka said:
Agreed^.

This is why we shouldn’t always be so quick to judge on these kinds of controversies.

PeterC said:
There have been many studies of the rate of “false reporting” of rape by women, and the estimates for the rate of this range from 2-8% of accusations.  The FBI’s estimate is 8%.

However the rate of unreported rapes is extremely high. Estimates for the percentage of female victims that never report rape are typically around 80%.  The most common reasons given for this are that women are often not believed, reporting can be more damaging socially to the victim than to the rapist, etc.

So sure, everyone is innocent until proven guilty, etc.  But when a woman says they’ve been raped, it’s overwhelmingly likely that they have been: and we should be encouraging women to come forward and report abuse by supporting them, not meeting reports with blanket statements like “she could be lying because she wanted money”.

Many rape cases end up in he said / she said due to lack of evidence. However in this case, we have a lot of corroborating evidence.  There was an alleged pregnancy.  She spoke to other members of the sangha, and their response seems to indicate that they were aware of a problem.  A reasonable person looking at these facts would conclude that it’s overwhelmingly likely that she was assaulted.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed:
32. For every 1000 rapes in the US, 995 perpetrators will go unpunished.
Studies covering unreported sexual assault statistics show that the overwhelming majority of perpetrators will escape punishment of any kind.US rape stats show that too many victims are afraid to follow through with the legalities of their claim, leading to perpetrators escaping punishment of any form.
https://legaljobs.io/blog/sexual-assault-statistics/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Sutra Question: We should never speak critically of dharma teachers?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Does this sutra mean that we should never speak critically of dharma teachers?

Malcolm wrote:
No. It means we should never speak critically of qualified dharma teachers. The authors of the sūtra were not referring to every fraud who set themselves up on the corner hawking the dharma for fun and profit.

"Critical" here means to claim that someone who is qualified is not qualified out of malice, envy, or ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: The body and mind of the Buddha is non-dual
Content:



Aemilius said:
Thanks. It is quite useless arguing about this matter, if and when we don't have firsthand experiene of this. I.e. what it is like to be in arupya-dhyana in this life or in a previous life, and how we are conscious of other beings in the arupya-dhatu?  Also, you cannot rule out the possiblity that Vasubandhu or his teachers or colleguages had firsthand knowledge in this matter.

Malcolm wrote:
You also cannot than rule out the possibility that the Buddhas who taught the Dzogchen tantras also had first hand knowledge in this matter. Frankly, I'll go with the Dzogchen tradition on this one. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy on his lips and asks him to suck his tongue
Content:
Zoey85 said:
Teachers of secret mantra now need to straddle that fence and live up to (and pretend to bow down to) the projections of impure view.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we don't. Even the Buddha had to deal with false accusations, as in the case of the young women who showed up with a washtub under her sari, and accused the Buddha of impregnating her.

All we need to do is maintain our own personal integrity. If we do that, then there will be no problem. If we start hitting on people, misappropriating organizational funds, etc., than that lays us open to criticism. But undeserved criticism needs to be met with laughter and derision at the people making false claims, and possible defamation lawsuits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 8:23 PM
Title: Re: H.E. Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche
Content:
gelukman said:
I would say for the defense of many who accused of rape in Buddhism.
It is not simple true. As most masters are into commercialism, power trips and fame.
It is easy for these women to think later "He did not give me a fair share".

Malcolm wrote:
We will find out. Choga is entitled to his day in court. But I have seen this pattern before, including the abortion part. It wasn’t rape, but the lama in question absolutely behaved inappropriately.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: H.E. Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche
Content:
gelukman said:
I would say for the defense of many who accused of rape in Buddhism.
It is not simple true. As most masters are into commercialism, power trips and fame.
It is easy for these women to think later "He did not give me a fair share".


Sādhaka said:
Agreed^.

This is why we shouldn’t always be so quick to judge on these kinds of controversies.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s funny, coming from you….

Zhen Li said:
He has issued a formal apology for the act.


Sādhaka said:
Then not a deepfake.

Crazy.

I want to see him as one who has actualized Sutra, Tantra, and Dzogchen; yet I’m now forced to see him as either joe-biden-esque and/or senile….


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 6:44 AM
Title: Re: The body and mind of the Buddha is non-dual
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
there is disagreement on this point from both the Theravada school as well as Dzogchen teachings.

Astus said:
Not in Theravada. See: https://suttacentral.net/kv8.8/en/aung-rhysdavids. The commentary (The Debates Commentary, p 136) identifies those who believed that there was matter in the immaterial realm as the Andhakas, i.e. the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitika s.
Also: 'In the sense planes, twenty-eight material phenomena are found; in the fine-material planes, twenty-three; among the non-perciepients, seventeen; but none in the immaterial plane.' (A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p 258)

Malcolm wrote:
Well then among some vibhajyavadjns. In any case it’s a matter of opinion, not fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


krodha said:
It is the same continuum of vidyā, but it is not yet the modality of vidyā as the “knowledge of the essence [snying po] that permeates all which is free of avidyā” as Vimalamitra says. Thus it is akin to an example jñāna.

Just like an example jñāna, as the mere clarity of mind, the vidyā of direct introduction is also just the mere clarity of mind that we fuse with the “view” in order to ripen that vidyā with the prajñā of realization so that it becomes the “knowledge of the essence [snying po] that permeates all which is free of avidyā.”

heart said:
Sorry man, I don't buy that. Direct introduction gives a short experience of “knowledge of the essence [snying po] that permeates all which is free of avidyā” but it doesn't last long.

krodha said:
If you’re very ripe, that may occur. The vast, vast majority does not have that degree of insight during direct introduction, and they don’t need to. All that is required is recognizing a moment of unfabricated consciousness [ma bcos pa'i shes pa skad cig ma]. Or vidyā in a direct perception, but both are just unripened vidyā.

heart said:
So when "deciding on one point" all aspect of samsara arise as experience of body, speech and mind but one keep returning to the “knowledge of the essence", thus deciding on that.

krodha said:
“Deciding on one point” just means you understand the continuum of vidyā is where buddhahood occurs, and nowhere else. All one has to do is to mature that unripened vidyā and buddhahood is a guarantee. That is all “deciding on one point” means.

That is why Vimalamitra makes this statement:
Fire is produced through the meeting of two things: the meeting of a person’s hands with a spindle. The fire does not exist in the spindle, nor does it exist in the hands of the person. Fire arises when three things meet: the hand, the spindle, and the fireboard. Similarly, though there is buddhahood in nondual dharmatā, it does not exist in one’s vidyā alone, which is insufficient. Likewise, a guru alone is insufficient. Also, one’s cultivation is insufficient. When these three things meet [vidyā, guru, and cultivation], buddhahood is a certainty.
You must “cultivate” i.e., ripen and mature the vidyā that the guru introduces you to and then buddhahood is a certainty. But vidyā alone without cultivation is not enough, just like an example jñāna alone without cultivation is insufficient.

Malcolm wrote:
The point goes to krodha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: The body and mind of the Buddha is non-dual
Content:


Aemilius said:
attachment to physical matter—as in the case for absorption which is the cause  which projects an existence  in
Arupyadhatu—the mind will be reborn and will exist without relation to physical matter."

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed Vasubandhu gives this opinion, but it’s just an opinion and there is disagreement on this point from both the Theravada school as well as Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



heart said:
Unripened just means not fully realised, it doesn't mean that that vidya wasn't fully experienced as you seem to say.

krodha said:
It is the same continuum of vidyā, but it is not yet the modality of vidyā as the “knowledge of the essence [snying po] that permeates all which is free of avidyā” as Vimalamitra says. Thus it is akin to an example jñāna.

Just like an example jñāna, as the mere clarity of mind, the vidyā of direct introduction is also just the mere clarity of mind that we fuse with the “view” in order to ripen that vidyā with the prajñā of realization so that it becomes the “knowledge of the essence [snying po] that permeates all which is free of avidyā.”

heart said:
Sorry man, I don't buy that. Direct introduction gives a short experience of “knowledge of the essence [snying po] that permeates all which is free of avidyā” but it doesn't last long. So when "deciding on one point" all aspect of samsara arise as experience of body, speech and mind but one keep returning to the “knowledge of the essence", thus deciding on that.

Malcolm wrote:
The difference between the clarity of the mind and the radiance of rig pa is the difference between grasping and not grasping subjects and objects. So you are both right. Why? Because the former arises from the latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 14th, 2023 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: H.E. Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This news does surprise me in the least.

Arnoud said:
Typo?
Does not surprise you I assume.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, not surprising at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 13th, 2023 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: H.E. Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This news does surprise me in the least.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 13th, 2023 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Take the result as the path and you'll do fine.


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, in Dzogchen we take the basis as the path, since there is no result to attain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 13th, 2023 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Anyone one else see the apparent contradiction here?


Malcolm wrote:
Gyurme has made an error, that’s all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 12th, 2023 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy on his lips and asks him to suck his tongue
Content:



Zhen Li said:
Own an impure vision? What does that mean?

Johnny Dangerous said:
Your response to this has been disappointing and you seem to be ignoring new information in favor of continuing to feel “let down”.

It seems like you -want- to be let down because it bolsters your view.

Given the information we have thus far your stance of moral grandstanding about this looks more and more unreasonable.

Zhen Li said:
You are totally missing my point. The general public isn't considering this new information. Perhaps we might feel gratified by these anonymous posts and theories, but people will see it as excusing someone asking them to suck their tongue. I am also not convinced by these bits of "new information." It was uncomfortable from start to finish. That's not for me, but it may be for you. The Dalai Lama apologised, which is also to admit it went too far. There's no need to excuse it or reinterpret it as a good event.

Malcolm wrote:
He apologized because he understood people took offense. This does not mean he actually did anything strange. Zero Tibetans are upset about this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 12th, 2023 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Lingpupa said:
I know this thread has drifted away from the original question, as almost always happens, so if the mods want to split parts of it off that's fine by me. But in the meantime...

Having been a bit puzzled by Tata1's comment that In dzogchen the 3 kayas are path experiences,
and having had light shed by Gyurme Kundrol's comment that It just means that at the time of the fourth vision, *all* phenomena including the three kayas dissolve back into the basis. Dzogchen considers that the attainment of the third vision is the attainment of dharmakaya as a path experience.
I find myself still a little uneasy.

This may be just because of the way, ever and again, things stated on internet forums come across with a different flavour from what was intended, but my first sticking point is in the two apparently simple words "in dzogchen..." Now I am well aware that dzogchen texts often slant their terminology in a unique way, and that it is plain that there is a considerable body of text and teaching that can usefully be described as "dzogchen". What worries me is the way those words suggest (to me, at any rate), that there is a monolithic - I'm tempted to say monocrystalline - body of text and teaching with a sharp and uncontested boundary from other related text and teaching that can be called "dzogchen", within which the usage of terms is fully consistent, or even defined, so that context other than being "in dzogchen" is unimportant. This would be as if any one technical term had just one clear and unvarying meaning across the whole of dzogchen. This would - obviously, in the light of dzogchen's extended history - be impossible, unless the title of "dzogchen" is reserved for a very small subset of what is generally called dzogchen. The rest would then be "not true dzogchen", a rather well-known fallacy.

Malcolm informed us that this idea (that in dzogchen the 3 kayas are path experiences) is stated in the "Self arisen vidya Tantra". Given that this is a dense text, and not a short one, it would be great if we could know the page and line number. I'm referring to Malcolm's own translation, of course.

My inability to quite swallow this whole was underlined, quite by chance, yesterday, as I was looking at the Chöying Dzöd, more specifically at Longchen Rabjam's autocommentatary. Now again I'm aware that Richard Barron's translation is, by now, felt to be in need of improvement, and I should also make clear that I know, in particular, that the translation of rigpa as "awareness" is a particular bête noir of Malcolm's, who is, after all, a big cheese here at this site. So while I'm open to correction and to hearing further explanations, it seems hard to imagine that the central gist of The fruition, self-knowing awareness free of distortion, is sacred dharmakaya..
(p.6, second-last paragraph) does not, even on the basis of an imagined, improved translation, identify the fruition with the dharmakaya.

This would all be a nothing, provided I/we can back off from a simplistic (in the older sense) scheme of perfectly distinct and perfectly self-consistent body of "dzogchen" and replace the quote that niggles me with In some dzogchen teaching, the 3 kayas are often viewed as path experiences
.

Perhaps I'm just splitting hairs-

Malcolm wrote:
I’ll be happy to provide you with many references, page numbers and all. I am in NYC right now and not at home, but I assure you this is how Dzogchen presents the kayas since they are present as the basis. The result, needless to say, is just realizing the original basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 12th, 2023 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy on his lips and asks him to suck his tongue
Content:



It'sYa1UPBoy said:
I...wasn't the one who said that, IIRC it was Zhen Li. I don't really have any thoughts on the Tibetan guru model beyond, "It's really not for me, so I'm not a Tibetan Buddhist." But I understand now your reference to "evangelization" was specifically in reference to urging people to not follow gurus, so thank you for clarifying.



Malcolm wrote:
Amazing that you would use this to evangelize.

Shaiksha said:
I think Malcolm pointed out someone who was a practitioner of the Pure Land buddhism (if I am correct), using this situtation to promote his own school of Buddhism. Whilst Vajrayana and Mahayana in general requires a human teacher/guru, the Pure Land buddhism does not need one and rely on the Buddha to save them or take them to the pure land after death (If I am wrong, I am sorry in advance for my real basic understanding of Pure Land buddhism) and hence would not have this type of problem to deal with. It can be interpreted like - I told you so (for those who have human teachers, especially the DL).

Zhen Li said:
Or I, like thousands of other Buddhists, who trusted and respected the Dalai Lama, feel let down,  anyone.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s your own impure vision. Own it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 12th, 2023 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy on his lips and asks him to suck his tongue
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Amazing that you would use this to evangelize.

It'sYa1UPBoy said:
Is saying that we should look to the Buddhas as guides really evangelism in a Buddhist forum? I should hope there's at least one Buddha that everyone here heeds.

Malcolm wrote:
The point was that you made a comment impugning gurus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 11th, 2023 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Tata1 said:
In dzogchen the 3 kayas are path experiences

Lingpupa said:
Intriguing. I'm sure that I've heard that kind of terminological scheme somewhere before, but I can't put my finger on it. Can you explain what it is saying, or give us the source?

Malcolm wrote:
Self arisen vidya Tantra, among many other Dzogchen texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 11th, 2023 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy on his lips and asks him to suck his tongue
Content:
Zhen Li said:
.

I am saying that we should not expect perfection of humans, but for that same reason, we cannot take human gurus in this age. I personally think the saṅgha should accept marriage, and we should not put humans up on a pedestal. While it is possible to find married and sensitive teachers in various Vajrayāna traditions, the buddhas like Amitābha are always there for us and will never abuse or disappoint us.

Malcolm wrote:
Amazing that you would use this to evangelize.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 10th, 2023 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Dalai Lama kisses boy on his lips and asks him to suck his tongue
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The appalling thing is that any of you perceive anything remotely sexual here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2023 at 7:59 PM
Title: Re: Gender attitudes - split from: direct intro in EU
Content:



Zoey85 said:
However, obviously white men and others in positions of privilege still suffer from this and that trauma--bad parenting, etc. And so Pepe and Donald Trump are very much worthy of compassion. I was just hoping august would tell us his reasons, simply to better understand. But he's obviously decided not to, which is fine.

Last week I was talking to my friend. He's a 40 yo white man, a surgeon, from a family of successful, highly educated people. He was almost literally in tears about how he's become obsolete in this world, because of being a white man. I could feel his pain; it was real. Yet somehow, amazingly, he wasn't able to make the connection that this is how many groups of people (women, minorities, disabled etc) have been feeling since time immemorial. (?!) And when I kept trying to point that out, it was just "yes but" over and over again.

PadmaVonSamba said:
There’s no such thing in Buddhism as being “worthy” of compassion.
The reason why people who do bad things should be the object of compassion is because  they and all other beings what they do for the same reasons that Buddhists do what they do: they are suffering and desire to be free from suffering. It doesn’t matter what their past was. Mahayana Buddhists aim to attain full realization in order to free all beings from suffering.

The whole thing about while people becoming extinct or whatever is just right wing propaganda bullsht and everybody should know that.

Ultimately, all identity issues, race, gender, etc are just projections of self-grasping. It’s still all basically samsaric bickering, then you die. The only reason to make preferences, to support this cause or that cause, is because within the scope of this general ignorance and self-clinging, additional suffering is created. In other words, for example, even though there is nothing that can truly be identified as ‘race’, there is racism, and the ignorance of racism creates conditions which are experienced as suffering. So, a Buddhist can be against racism, gender-identity discrimination etc because these things produce suffering, even with the understanding that clinging to any self-identity really only becomes the cause for more suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
We’ll, truth be told, having almost entirely Northern European ancestry, I am definitely more pink than white.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2023 at 7:55 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Lingpupa said:
But in THAT sense, I think it is not unreasonable to talk about trying to rest in or recognize the gap between two thoughts, as I have heard at least one of my main teachers say. Those thoughts may not be the same as theoretically posited "mind moments", of course, but I think I (or we?) are convinced that such mind moments do not deserve much attention.

Malcolm wrote:
If you identify a gap, your meditation has a conceptual reference, and you will be further from the dharmakaya than heaven is from earth,

Lingpupa said:
It's not a technique I use, but in any case I'm not talking about such rarefied ideas as the dharmakaya. It's just an everyday meditation technique, described in everyday language.

Malcolm wrote:
If your meditation has a conceptual reference, than you wont ever transcend the three realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 9th, 2023 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Lingpupa said:
But in THAT sense, I think it is not unreasonable to talk about trying to rest in or recognize the gap between two thoughts, as I have heard at least one of my main teachers say. Those thoughts may not be the same as theoretically posited "mind moments", of course, but I think I (or we?) are convinced that such mind moments do not deserve much attention.

Malcolm wrote:
If you identify a gap, your meditation has a conceptual reference, and you will be further from the dharmakaya than heaven is from earth,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2023 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Distinguishing between Dharma and Dharma culture
Content:
Vasana said:
Confession time: I'm starting to feel a bit fatigued by Dharma & Buddhist culture.

Malcolm wrote:
Understandable. We don't need Dharma/Buddhist culture. We need Buddhadharma. It is important not to mistake the former for the latter. There is no need to identify as a buddhist, or anything else for that matter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2023 at 12:33 PM
Title: Re: how to please Jñanasattva
Content:
ThreeVows said:
but the latter way can at times diminish the yidam deity very considerably, and we remain in our little palace of 'understanding'.

Malcolm wrote:
If one does not understand the yidam as one's own state, one's practice will never be more than empty gestures.

Of course there is a Buddha Vajradhara, a sambhogkāya, who is conventionally real, who manifest these methods to bodhisattvas on the stages, who then in turn transmit them to ordinary people.

The point of the path of transformation is the practice the result as the path.

The natural form of human beings is to have one face, two hands, and two legs. This is why these forms of yidams are called "sahaja," natural and is why they are generally used for completion stage practice.

Deities like Cakrasamvara, etc., have multiple heads, arms, and legs in the creation stage, because these represent various purities, which one is to recall during the sadhana practice, as well as various bases of purification and so forth.

People should generally rely on authoritative commentaries written by experts of the past when considering how they should understand yidam practice. What I see here is a lot of baseless opinions not grounded in any tradition other than "this is what I think."

jet.urgyen said:
Wich commentaries wold be good to read? Please recommend some

Malcolm wrote:
That depend on what cycle you are practicing. For example, if you are practicing Yamantaka, there is little point in reading a commentary on Vajrayogini and so on.

In Nyingma, it is a little easier, since all sadhanas have the same basic format.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2023 at 7:47 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This kind of meditation is well, based on mind.

stong gzugs said:
Out of curiosity, are the rushens described as being based on mind?

Malcolm wrote:
The purpose of rushan practice is to prevent one's body, speech, and mind from returning to the three realms, and to realize the three kāyas.

The difference between this sutra version presented by a Theravadin teacher, and the investigation of the mind in rushan, is that the former is not based on having been introduced to pristine consciousness (ye shes) and the latter is.

The difference between meditation based on mind and concentration based on ye shes is discussed by Longchenpa in the opening section of chapter 10 of the commentary on the Treasury of Dharmadhātu. Simply put, if your meditation ends when you end the session, then your practice is mind-based and will not ultimately lead to the result. If your concentration continues regardless of whether you are in a session or not, then your practice is based in pristine consciousness and is already the result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2023 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Lingpupa said:
... but I cannot get away from the thought that moments with no duration and no gap don't provide a way out. Only the position that, as you say, "time is a construct that does not refer to anything real" does that.

Malcolm wrote:
Partless moments are an ultimate of reduction, but not an ultimate of freedom from extremes.

All moments are partless, and because causes and effects are neither same nor different, and because we perceive dualistic, we experience time as duration.

For example, for the dharmakāya and sambhogakāya, there is no time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2023 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Gender attitudes - split from: direct intro in EU
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
a far-right incel Buddhist. Can’t say I ever expected to see that in this lifetime lol.

stong gzugs said:
Not to be the bearer of bad news, but, even aside from the right-wing Buddhist movements in Myanmar, Sri Lanka, etc. there's a growing number of https://scoutnews.substack.com/p/nazi-buddhists, many of whom draw inspiration from Julius Evola's writings, which has produced groups like the https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/right-wing-dharma-squads/id1471546678 and the https://navakavada.org/ path started by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hd8lCiZYKE&ab_channel=PannobhasaakaDavidReynolds who apparently was ordained in the Theravada. I haven't seen any of this in my Vajrayana sanghas, but it's apparently a common enough problem that Ven. Sujato has had https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/we-cannot-ignore-buddhist-extremism-lions-roar/25286.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, extremism, both left and right, as a tendency to attract people with personality disorders, as well as exacerbate those significantly. Popper's paradox of tolerance applies here.

That said, I don't see anyone where hassling women who do not want male teachers, so let's check ourselves for double standards.

The pepe avatar is pretty f**cked up, however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 8th, 2023 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Lingpupa said:
I think this is a category error, or at least something of that sort. Perhaps just a word game. How can (at most putative) partless mind moments that have no duration amount to any apparent time at all?
I doubt that the calculus of infinitesimals can get us out of that one, The statement is more in the realm of the famous "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously".

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all. Time depends on objects that are perceived, not the duration of a moment of mind itself.

Lingpupa said:
So... Time depends on objects that are perceived
Whatever that means is opaque to me. It's teatime because I perceive madeira cake?

Malcolm wrote:
It means that consciousness is perceiving objects. If one is free from perceiving objects, one is free from time.

Lingpupa said:
Your "mind moments", moreover, are partless and have, you say, no duration. This would mean, in particular because you appear to dispute the existence of gaps between these supposed "mind moments", that no matter how many ultra-giga-gadzillions of them they are, they amount to no time at all, and must inevitably happen all at once, even if in sequence.

Malcolm wrote:
The alternative is mind moments that have discrete modes of arising, abiding, and ceasing, which do not stand up to Madhyamaka analysis, rendering time meaningless as well.

At least partless mind moments, perishing while they arise, can't be rejected by Madhyamaka reasonings. They cannot be simultaneous, incidentally, because they are serially dependent.

But as we know, time is a construct, and does not refer to anything real, hence the so-called fourth time, which is the union of the three times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: how to please Jñanasattva
Content:
ThreeVows said:
but the latter way can at times diminish the yidam deity very considerably, and we remain in our little palace of 'understanding'.

Malcolm wrote:
If one does not understand the yidam as one's own state, one's practice will never be more than empty gestures.

Of course there is a Buddha Vajradhara, a sambhogkāya, who is conventionally real, who manifest these methods to bodhisattvas on the stages, who then in turn transmit them to ordinary people.

The point of the path of transformation is the practice the result as the path.

The natural form of human beings is to have one face, two hands, and two legs. This is why these forms of yidams are called "sahaja," natural and is why they are generally used for completion stage practice.

Deities like Cakrasamvara, etc., have multiple heads, arms, and legs in the creation stage, because these represent various purities, which one is to recall during the sadhana practice, as well as various bases of purification and so forth.

People should generally rely on authoritative commentaries written by experts of the past when considering how they should understand yidam practice. What I see here is a lot of baseless opinions not grounded in any tradition other than "this is what I think."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The real siddhi is leading beings to the path. If one has to stop the sun to do that, ok. But that is a bit extreme, no?

Also, in the bio of Virupa, Avalokiteśvara had to intervene because Virupa was getting a little out of control, generally freaking everyone out.


