﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: Trump suggests delay election
Content:
Nemo said:
I hope it destroys the empires ability to wreck other countries.


Malcolm wrote:
No, not at all. Once we regain competent leadership, the US will be just as lethal as it ever was. Rome didn't fall in a day. Neither will the US.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 11:04 PM
Title: Trump eats his own...
Content:
Unknown said:
Herman Cain, the former Republican presidential candidate and business executive who was recently hospitalized with the coronavirus, has died. He was 74.

His death was announced on his website and social media accounts. Early this month, he said he had been hospitalized in the Atlanta area.

Mr. Cain, the former chief executive of Godfather’s Pizza, tested positive for the virus after he attended President Trump’s indoor rally in Tulsa, Okla., on June 20.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/us/politics/herman-cain-dead.html?searchResultPosition=1


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Help Me Find Trump’s ‘Anarchists’ in Portland
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/opinion/portland-protests-trump.html:
If you want to call one side “rioters” or “anarchists” working to create tumult in Portland, it’s the uninvited feds who qualify.
There is a riot, a police riot:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Trump suggests delay election
Content:
PeterC said:
He has no authority to do that. Even congress doesn’t.

He himself actually votes by mail, from Florida.

Malcolm wrote:
Illegally in fact, since his residence in Florida is illegal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 7:58 PM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Help Me Find Trump’s ‘Anarchists’ in Portland
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/opinion/portland-protests-trump.html:
If you want to call one side “rioters” or “anarchists” working to create tumult in Portland, it’s the uninvited feds who qualify.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Biden's VP Choice
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
And a lot of people are happy they will finally get that war with Iran they have been wanting for so long!

Malcolm wrote:
That is a rather unfounded statement. Similar to the bullshit claims re: Hillary and nuclear war.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 11:10 AM
Title: Re: Biden's VP Choice
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I would prefer Susan Rice.

TharpaChodron said:
Susan Rice would be the best VP candidate. Being safe is okay right now, considering Biden himself is the loose canon to worry about. I’m not sure how much charisma she has, but she seems pleasant, something Harris sorely lacks.

I don’t know how many people will cross party lines to vote for Biden, but with Harris as VP the number would be zero, with Rice there will be definitely be some republicans who vote for Biden and her (my 82 year old stepdad for one example)...

Malcolm wrote:
These days, merely being competent is all the charisma I want or need. I think given the covid debacle, there are going to be a lot of people who vote for Biden because they get the fact that their lives literally depend on it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 9:21 AM
Title: Trump is toast...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In Michigan:
President Donald Trump’s campaign is not currently running television or radio ads in Michigan and its allied super PAC has been dark in the state for most of July, a possible indication that the key Upper Midwestern battleground is beginning to fall out of reach.

Read more here: https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article244567752.html#storylink=cpy
https://www.newsandguts.com/link/mcclatchy-the-numbers-are-dismal-trump-campaign-super-pac-pause-ads-in-michigan/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 9:12 AM
Title: Re: Biden's VP Choice
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I would prefer Susan Rice.

Queequeg said:
I like Rice, too. She would immediately be the most qualified for the job of president. She seems "too safe", though. Might be the most competent to run the government as Steel suggests.

Malcolm wrote:
She is the person most qualified for the job. However, should biden be short sighted enough to choose someone else,like Harris,  Susan Rice would be my pick for Secretary of State.

I really hope he fills his cabinet with women.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: I don't want parinirvana,should I follow a different path?
Content:
DNS said:
Doesn't the bodhisattva vows include continual rebirth for helping other sentient beings?

Malcolm wrote:
This is misconception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Biden's VP Choice
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I would prefer Susan Rice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 5:56 AM
Title: Fox Vs. Fox
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: How to avoid imagining the tantric world as inherently existing?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
It has already been pointed out to you that Jamgon Kongtrul states that sutra mahāmudra is for people who are not suited for Vajrayāna practice of any kind, people of lower capacity. Do you really need chapter and verse?

White Sakura said:
If it is in the book I started reading, Generation and Completion, then not. If it is in another book then: yes please and then I will try to be nice an believe what you say without citations.

Malcolm wrote:
Treasury of Knowledge, Esoteric Instructions, pg. 223-224. Here it is clearly stated that the sūtra mahāmudra tradition is taught in this degenerate age in order to introduce those who are not capable of practicing Vajrayāna in this moment as a practice to prepare them for it. It is also mentioned that in the present it is common to introduce everyone to sūtra mahāmudra because it is considered suitable for everyone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:



Queequeg said:
The insanity of our system is that he could possibly lose the popular vote by 10% and still get elected because of the electoral college.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the electoral math does not back that scenario up.

Queequeg said:
No? If say blue states went overwhelmingly blue, 99% blue with massive turnout, Its not possible?
I haven't done the math so, I'll accept correction.

Malcolm wrote:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/voters-are-starting-to-doubt-trumps-reelection-chances/

Queequeg said:
For months now, President Trump has trailed Joe Biden in the polls. First, it was only a 5- or 6-percentage-point gap, but since the middle of June, that margin has widened to anywhere from 8 to 9 points, according to FiveThirtyEight’s national polling average.

But until very recently, voters didn’t seem all that convinced that Biden could win. In poll after poll, comparatively more voters said they thought Trump would win reelection in November. Now, though, that view may be shifting.

Over the past two and a half months, the share of voters who said they expect Trump to win has fallen from about 45 percent to around 40 percent in polling by The Economist/YouGov, as the chart below shows, while Biden’s share has slowly ticked up to where Trump’s numbers are. (Roughly a fifth of respondents still say they’re “not sure.”)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Is the argument out of date?
Content:
Viach said:
Theravada concept of the atom

Astus said:
It's the Sarvastivadins that Yogacarins argued against. http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/26.2-Buddhist-atomism-piya.pdf is a much later development, and it's somewhat different.

Malcolm wrote:
Not that different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: How to avoid imagining the tantric world as inherently existing?
Content:


White Sakura said:
But somehow now because I believe sutra mahamudra is a path not lower to tantra and there are three paths of Mahamudra described, then Varjayana cannot be only tantra, since it encompasses sutra mahamudra as an equal practice. So I draw the conclusion logically, I mean what appears to be logical to me, and didn´t dream I about I have to look it up.

Malcolm wrote:
It has already been pointed out to you that Jamgon Kongtrul states that sutra mahāmudra is for people who are not suited for Vajrayāna practice of any kind, people of lower capacity. Do you really need chapter and verse?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 30th, 2020 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Mother sentient beings
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Did you mother do that to you? If not, then the objection is useless.

Mirror said:
I know a guy, who is physically handicapped, because his mother was drinking an alcohol while she was pregnant. In order to reduce his suffering, I want to teach him how to develop love.

Malcolm wrote:
Then tell him to focus on the person he things cared for him the most.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Mother sentient beings
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Because mothers carry us in their bodies, feed us from their bodies, and will do anything to protect us.

Mirror said:
Some mothers abandon their children, drink an alcohol while pregnant (the result of such behaviour is a disability of a child) or even kill their children. So my opinion is that not every mother will do anything to protect her child. But I might be wrong and just misunderstand some things. Thank you

Malcolm wrote:
Did you mother do that to you? If not, then the objection is useless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Is the argument out of date?
Content:
Viach said:
You can often hear the argument of the Mahayanists that the Theravada concept of the atom is untenable:

Malcolm wrote:
It is not just a Mahāyāna argument, it is also the argument of the Sautrantika school in India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: How to avoid imagining the tantric world as inherently existing?
Content:


White Sakura said:
So if I made an absurd statement and nobody supported the same with very good arguments and citations, then I am quite convinced of the opposite of my absurd statement.
Sorry, I have a difficult mind and question everything.

Malcolm wrote:
Educate yourself. Then you won't make absurd statements, and cause other people to waste their time schooling you on basic definitions. Where to you think the term "tantra" comes from. It comes from Vajrayāna. Where do you think Vajrasattva, mandala offerings, and guru yoga come from? They come from tantras (specifically, the Guhyasamāja), which are the basic texts of Vajrayāna. Come on, man. The deleted comment was basically a comment to the effect that yes, you have listed many concepts, too many, and that you do not seem to understand even the very simplest basics of Vajrayāna sadhana practice. It is ok to lack knowledge, but your means of presenting your ignorance is incredibly arrogant and confrontational. This is my concept! Prove me wrong!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Queequeg said:
If you take religion away from both of those movements, it loses the existential urgency, as well as the... I don't know what the word is in English...　正 rectitude? Dignity?

Malcolm wrote:
This argument is total nonsense. The Civil Rights movement did not succeed because of religious conviction, it succeeded despite it. You recall, that the segregationists and advocates of slavery before them, also took the Bible as their source for their [un]ethical arguments about miscegenation and earlier, owning people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
PeterC said:
But we all benefit by limiting discussion of public policy and law to the world of fact and logic.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, "Keep your goddamn religion out of my government."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:



Queequeg said:
Judeo-Christian and its derivatives.



The Establishment Clause reads,

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Its interpreted to mean that no church could be the official church of the US government. It doesn't mean people can't bring their religious or spiritual background to inform their participation in civil society. I don't think there was any consensus to remove religion from public life in America.

https://youtu.be/8yOWjkAxrwE

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it does. It is the reason we cannot erect stupas on public land, for example.

Queequeg said:
land =/= life

Malcolm wrote:
Tell that to George Mason:
Section 1. That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.
https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/virginia-declaration-of-rights

Here life and liberty are specifically equated "with the means of acquiring and possessing property."

The most important founders were all atheists, aka "Deists," followers of Lucretius's Epicureanism as treated in De Rerum Natura. If you haven't read it, you should read Nature's God: The Heretical Origins of the American Republic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
Ayu said:
A German newspaper headlined this morning:
"Chaos first! America second."
They believe, Trump is trying to cause a great stirr, polarizing - in order to win his election.
But in Germany we think and hope he will not make it. He seems to be 10% behind Biden.

Queequeg said:
The insanity of our system is that he could possibly lose the popular vote by 10% and still get elected because of the electoral college.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the electoral math does not back that scenario up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
tingdzin said:
Bravo Queequeg. Glad someone has the time and the patience to persist in persisting with a reasonable view.

I would just add that, rightly or wrongly, most of the electorate is not going to pay attention to the larger issues involved when they see riots. Get ready for another four years of Trump.

Malcolm wrote:
You seriously think "riots" are going to take precedence in people's minds over this administration's inept and fatal response to Covid-19?

Every person who dies (1000k a day right now) is on Trump. Our health care system will be dealing with the aftereffects of this disease for years. The economy is in the shithouse. And the GOP thinks $600 a week is a disincentive for people to find work. I don't see how the GOP or Trump gets past this without engaging brazenly in criminal activity during the election.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 7:38 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:


Lillian said:
Or with Malcom's seed and tree. The seed is a cause of the tree, and yet the tree is the cause of the seed being a seed, seed and tree arise together, the seed fully contains the tree and every other tree and seed everywhere, and there are no seeds or trees at all because all are empty. These are not contradictory propositions any more than saying that the top of a mountain fully contains the bottom and the whole mountain, that every grain of sand of the mountain (or "moment" of the mountain for Dogen's being-time) holds the whole mountains and every mountain within, and other like perspectives from an integrated Huayan perspective, and also that there is no mountain nor grain of sand top to bottom because there is only emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
This perspective is pretty much the same as the nonbuddhist Samkhya school. You can’t save if by calling it all “empty.” That’s just a cop out.

If you climb Everest, you are not climbing Meru. If you sail on the Indian Ocean, you are not on the pacific. If you are in America, you are not in Japan. You are not me, and I am not you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 7:32 PM
Title: Re: How to avoid imagining the tantric world as inherently existing?
Content:


White Sakura said:
Tantra is not an equivalent to Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is.

Look, I have been doing this for 31 years. I have done three year retreat. I have five books published with Wisdom, one forthcoming from Shambhala, and two more forthcoming from Wisdom.

Tantra = Vajrayana. Please educate yourself before you make absurd statements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 6:45 PM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What wisdom tradition did John Rawls rely on? Hume?

Queequeg said:
Judeo-Christian and its derivatives.
We handicap ourselves if we draw too strict a line between Dharma and the secular world.
Come on man, the establishment clause. The whole thrust of the Scottish Enlightenment was to get religion out of ethics.
The Establishment Clause reads,

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Its interpreted to mean that no church could be the official church of the US government. It doesn't mean people can't bring their religious or spiritual background to inform their participation in civil society. I don't think there was any consensus to remove religion from public life in America.

https://youtu.be/8yOWjkAxrwE

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it does. It is the reason we cannot erect stupas on public land, for example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 6:39 PM
Title: Re: How to avoid imagining the tantric world as inherently existing?
Content:


White Sakura said:
I am just not convinced of tantra being a higher path.

Malcolm wrote:
This means you are not a suitable candidate for Vajrayana teachings, and you have erred in taking many empowerment, because now you have many samayas. So you should just put Vajrayana aside without criticizing it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 6:36 PM
Title: Re: How to avoid imagining the tantric world as inherently existing?
Content:
White Sakura said:
I am afraid of building concepts.

Malcolm wrote:
Deleted...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 10:01 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The essential practice of Dzogchen teachings is guruyoga.

yagmort said:
Malcolm, could you please clarify this seeming contradiction ?

heart said:
Now you got me confused, isn't Guru Yoga a main Dzogchen practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course not. The main Dzogchen practice is the direct perception of your own state. Even guru yoga is a practice that works with mind, rather than pristine consciousness -- even Ati guru yoga. Thus, guru yoga is a method related to the second phrase of Garab Dorje, "decide one thing/remain without doubt." One uses guru yoga, or rushan, etc., to introduce oneself to the mind essence over and over as many times as one needs until one has attained some stability in recognizing it and sustaining that recognition.

Once you have "decided on one thing/no longer remain in doubt", then you do not remain passive, you shift your focus to "continue in the confidence of liberation/continue in that state," relying principally on the primary methods of the Great Perfection found in so called "man ngag lde," trekchö and thögal.

yagmort said:
this is from the thread https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&start=200&t=25216&sid=64ca0636b697f1c58d188357b63c2a3b

Malcolm wrote:
There is no conflict. Guru yoga is how we discover our own state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:


Pero said:
It seems that doesn't have the same meaning in Massachusetts as it does elsewhere.

Malcolm wrote:
Get your mind out of the gutter, son.

In US colloquial, to finger someone means a) accuse someone of a crime b) stick a finger where it may or may not be wanted...depending on interest.

Pero said:
Sorry but I googled it before I posted, just in case, and missed your a) definition. It's not in the Urban dictionary.
I see now I actually even completely misunderstood because I didn't read the post well and thought it means he killed four people.

Malcolm wrote:
"Convicted California Murderer Fingered in 'Allenstown 4' Deaths; Missing NH Woman Presumed Dead"
"Murdered veteran ‘fingered’ two JBLM soldiers now charged in his death for a ‘drug incident’ last year, affidavit says
Local man is fingered as mystery murderer, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:


Queequeg said:
So, you're saying conditions in Portland are comparable to apartheid S. Africa?

Malcolm wrote:
I am saying that the "riot" is confined to one city block in Portland. It is small potatoes. A fire was started, some graffiti was sprayed. Fox news had a cow. Trump, predictably, saw this as his Chicago Riot moment.


Queequeg said:
From what I understand, this sums up what happened in Portland in general.

Malcolm wrote:
I was referring to Federal goons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Path
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Do you mean is there a graded path of Dzogchen?

Yes and no.

Dvs said:
Yes that's I meant. What are the uncommon Dzogchen preliminaries?

Thanks for the reply!

Malcolm wrote:
They are called "separating samsara from nirvana."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 29th, 2020 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Danny said:
Off spin topic to discuss big ideas for an enlightened society. Let’s use the Buddhist teachings as a framework.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddha never did. That wasn't his job. You cannot have an awakened society with people who are not awake. The best one can hope for is society based on reasonable secular ethics concerning the economy, governance, education, and so forth.

Queequeg said:
I think there is room for application of ideas and methods we find in Buddhist education to a secular context, though. Secular ethics do not exist in a vacuum. They rely on wisdom traditions to inform the values.

Malcolm wrote:
What wisdom tradition did John Rawls rely on? Hume?

Queequeg said:
We handicap ourselves if we draw too strict a line between Dharma and the secular world.

Malcolm wrote:
Come on man, the establishment clause. The whole thrust of the Scottish Enlightenment was to get religion out of ethics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Hayer fingered four other men in the 1970's.

Pero said:
It seems that doesn't have the same meaning in Massachusetts as it does elsewhere.

Malcolm wrote:
Get your mind out of the gutter, son.

In US colloquial, to finger someone means a) accuse someone of a crime b) stick a finger where it may or may not be wanted...depending on interest.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
confusedlayman said:
During buddhas time... monestry was enlightened socity

Malcolm wrote:
No, if this were true, there would have been no need for so many vinaya rules. Most of Buddha's disciples were ignorant schmucks just like us.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:


Queequeg said:
I wrote this somewhere on the board when we were discussing Antifa confronting Proudboys in Portland, it would be a powerful statement if the Proud Boys were left to march but met with thousands of silent counter-protesters lining the streets, not engaging, but making clear that their views and their presence is not welcome.

Malcolm wrote:
"Nonviolence is a good strategy when conditions permit."

—Mandela


Queequeg said:
It would similarly be a profound statement if these federal officers were met with silent crowds making it clear they are not welcome in Portland. If these officers then started shooting these protesters with rubber bullets and tear gas, the moral wrong would be crystal clear.

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, that is what happened.


https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/07/protests-mark-day-50-in-portland-thursday-amid-growing-attention-from-trump-administration.html

Queequeg said:
The crowd downtown eventually started growing late Thursday, including outside a federal office building next to the jail. By 11:15 p.m., more than one dozen officers, wearing either blue or camouflage uniforms, were posted near the entrance of the building at Southwest Third Avenue and Madison Street. Two dozen more officers soon streamed out of the building to join them.

Several dozen protesters stood on the sidewalk and street near officers. Officers shot some type of less-than-lethal projectiles to break up the crowd around 11:25 p.m. It was not clear what precipitated officers’ actions.

Officers then pressed toward the crowd, shooting impact munitions and setting off devices that emit gas and smoke to force people to keep walking north on Third Avenue past the jail and then past the courthouse. Other officers in camouflage assembled on nearby Madison Street. As they pressed the crowd away from the buildings, the officers in camouflage walked beyond federal property and onto city streets.

Officers eventually formed a line on Third Avenue at Salmon Street, near the north end of the courthouse. Crowds of people gathered nearby on the other side of Salmon. Protesters pressed toward officers, and officers again set off devices that made loud noises and released gas, smoke and flashes.

Malcolm wrote:
The protests were winding down before the goons showed up. The goons have just exacerbated the issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Okay, Shotenzenjin.

But that in itself does not automatically indicate the NOI as the actual assassins (no pun intended (?) on the hashashin & templar tip).
Talmadge Hayer was shot in the leg by a bodyguard and apprehended by members of the crowd as he tried to escape before police arrived. The other two suspects...

Malcolm wrote:
https://time.com/5778688/malcolm-x-assassination/

There is no doubt that Hayer was one of the people who shot Malcolm X. There is no doubt because he was holding physical evidence of one of the weapons used. The other two men were convicted on the sparsest of circumstantial evidence, merely because they were enforcers for NOI. Hayer steadfastly maintained they were innocent.

Hayer fingered four other men in the 1970's.

Whatever the case may be, NOI killed Malcolm.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:


Dan74 said:
I fear you are adding to it, Peter, as folks keep looking for some underhanded thing the administration is doing. There is just no way the WH can do anything right or have support on any issue, is there?

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Dan74 said:
It almost feels like your entire political system and media need a massive overhaul.

Malcolm wrote:
We just need a new president who actually knows how to run a government. Despite all the bullshit about Biden, he is eminently capable of this. I am hoping he chooses Susan Rice as his VP, while there are many eminently qualified women under consideration, I think we need someone like her. Not because she is black, but because she is really, really smart. Basically, after Bush, we needed eight years of Obama to repair the damage the GOP did to our economy, etc., the last time around. This time around we will at least 24 years of Democratic administrations to repair the damage Donald Trump and his wrecking crew have inflicted on this nation. I sincerely hope that the GOP never wins another national election. If people are so stupid as to keep voting for the GOP, there is no help for them.

The "media" in this country has always had its partisan voices. The newspapers, barring opinion pages, only started to become a bit more objective in reporting since the early 20th century because they had to downplay partisanship in order to sell advertising.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Path
Content:
Dvs said:
What is the Dzogchen path from start to finish. I would like to understand the complete path from point A to Z and everything in between?

Is it different in each Nyingma school? Is there a completely linear path?

Sorry if this is somewhat confusing.

Malcolm wrote:
Do you mean is there a graded path of Dzogchen?

Yes and no.

Like all other Vajrayāna paths, one begins with receiving an empowerment or a so-called direct introduction. Then, depending on master and tradition, one either engages in common Vajrayāna preliminaries, or one moves directly to the uncommon Dzogchen preliminaries. One may or may not spend time practicing deity yoga.

The essential practice of Dzogchen teachings is guruyoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 3:28 PM
Title: Re: Ngakpas everywhere!
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
Then there is the white skirted/long haired bunch. I would not term these people "lay people."
They aren’t people who have left home

Malcolm wrote:
That doesn’t matter. And anyway, these days, in Tibetan Buddhism, most monks behave like lay people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 8:18 AM
Title: Re: Ngakpas everywhere!
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
Hey,

how is it with ngakpas? Are they a thing outside of Nyingma lineages? For example does a Drikung Kagyu have ngakpa practitioners?

Here by ngakpa I mean the sort of "lay" tantric practitioner who takes the ngakpa vows and has the white robe and all. Please correct my understanding of what ngakpa is and ideally broaden it.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what kind of "ngakpa" you mean. In general, anyone who has received and practices Vajrayāna is a mantrin/mantrika. Then there is the white skirted/long haired bunch. I would not term these people "lay people."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 8:14 AM
Title: Re: Lama Lena Testimonies/Credentials
Content:



Pero said:
I see your point now but am not sure about it. I partly agree but in school for example, I had many teachers who taught me many things which I never used and have forgotten (and some I never learnt lol). This does not make them not my teachers at some point. Also by what you're saying, if someone actually learns something from one teacher and then learns the same or similar thing from another, but would not be able to understand this if he had learned from the 2nd first, wouldn't the the 2nd teacher still automatically become his teacher simply due to prior knowledge possesed by the student? And so on for the 3rd and 4th etc.

Malcolm wrote:
At best, you received a positive trace for meeting the teachings in a future life.


tobes said:
I wouldn't underestimate this though. Dharma seeds can ripen in very unexpected ways, and they do not necessarily depend on the disciple being diligent, committed etc at the time of them being given/planted.

I owe a lot to this fact!

Malcolm wrote:
We all do, nevertheless, we have no idea when such traces ripen, and in most case, probably not in this life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
I wasn’t talking about worldly achievements. I don’t have any of those at all.

Steel said:
If you're referring to some high spiritual attainment then I tip off my hat to you.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, but I have managed to translate and publish five important Dharna Books in the past five years, and I have three more coming out in the next two years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Steel said:
Do you wish you achieved more in life?

Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, my achievements, quite minor though they may be, are completely beyond what I could have imagined 40, 30, 20, or even 10 years ago.

Steel said:
That's good to hear. I think at the end of the day all these worldly achievements don't mean anything even if you're the ceo of some fortune 500 company. Nothing is more important than using this rare human life to engage in spiritual pursuits.

Malcolm wrote:
I wasn’t talking about worldly achievements. I don’t have any of those at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Steel said:
Do you wish you achieved more in life?

Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, my achievements, quite minor though they may be, are completely beyond what I could have imagined 40, 30, 20, or even 10 years ago.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:



Queequeg said:
I'm not defending DHS in any way. But come on - this is not about graffiti.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, this is about incompetent law enforcement, state-sanctioned, extra-judicial murder, incompetent governance at the federal level, and so on. The violence we are seeing was entirely provoked by the police from the beginning. Reap what you sow.

Queequeg said:
In the big picture, correct. Within the immediate scope, we're talking about Portland and the escalating rounds of violence. So far, I'm not aware of any extra-judicial murders in Portland arising out of the protests, and I pray that there will not be.
In order to survive a Trump Presidency, the rise of white nationalism, and widening income inequality, there needs to be a strong resistance.

Our resistance envisions a future where communities are empowered to create new solutions to present day problems, using direct action, political advocacy, and community development to inspire new people to get involved in politics and to create a united platform for progressive causes.  Portland has an opportunity to become a beacon of light, modeling to the world what a nonviolent resistance movement can truly look like.

Our movement will endure, gather, and thrive.  Each act of oppression spurs us to recommit our hands and our hearts.  We work, we grow, we change — we resist!

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.pdxresistance.org/about_us

You ought to read this to get a sense of what the local issues are for these folks, and why they keep going into the breach, day after day.

https://www.wweek.com/news/state/2020/07/26/next-round-of-police-reform-bills-in-the-legislature-could-include-blanket-bans-on-chokeholds-and-tear-gas/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:


Pero said:
Why not?

Malcolm wrote:
Oppositional personality disorder.

Pero said:
I'm actually not sure if you're maybe joking but for some reason I can totally imagine it.


Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, school bored me to tears. I generally finished reading all my books by the third of fourth week of school (not math though, not a strong point, and I lacked patience for it). And just sat bored in class for the rest of the year.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Lama Lena Testimonies/Credentials
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just think of all the people who waltz into an online empowerment, or tune into a Lama Lena Facebook teaching which is literally open to a billion people, check it out for a while, and then move onto say, Jax. So really, Lena is their guru? Their teacher? Or lets say someone checks out Buddhism for while, does Ngondro, and then, for whatever reason, they decide to become Christians, and hang up their mala for good. Did they ever have a guru in a real sense?

This idea that participating in a ritual or a teaching makes someone your guru is a somewhat strange idea if you have no idea of the meaning of the teachings and so, on, and no faith in the teachings, and no interest in following them as your path.

Of course, this idea is a traditional idea, one which functions well in homogenous Buddhist society where everyone is more or less on the same page. But in our culture it really does not apply, in my opinion.

Pero said:
I see your point now but am not sure about it. I partly agree but in school for example, I had many teachers who taught me many things which I never used and have forgotten (and some I never learnt lol). This does not make them not my teachers at some point. Also by what you're saying, if someone actually learns something from one teacher and then learns the same or similar thing from another, but would not be able to understand this if he had learned from the 2nd first, wouldn't the the 2nd teacher still automatically become his teacher simply due to prior knowledge possesed by the student? And so on for the 3rd and 4th etc.

Malcolm wrote:
People really like to make shit complicated.

It's simple. For example, you listened to webcast. You received direct introduction. You did not understand, you do not experience anything. You never did any practice to discover your own state. In this case, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is not your guru, not even your teacher. He is just some Tibetan dude you expressed some curiosity in. At best, you received a positive trace for meeting the teachings in a future life.

You met fifteen Dzogchen teachers. You really were devoted to them all. You didn't understand shit until you met ChNN for a conversation in a bar. But his few words opened up the meaning of Dzogchen for you. In this case, ChNN is your root guru. The others, gurus of empowerment and lineage only.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Lama Lena Testimonies/Credentials
Content:
Pero said:
I mean, it seems to me that if this were true many wouldn't actually have "teachers"...

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. They have teachers in name only.
Just think of all the people who waltz into an online empowerment, or tune into a Lama Lena Facebook teaching which is literally open to a billion people, check it out for a while, and then move onto say, Jax. So really, Lena is their guru? Their teacher? Or lets say someone checks out Buddhism for while, does Ngondro, and then, for whatever reason, they decide to become Christians, and hang up their mala for good. Did they ever have a guru in a real sense?

This idea that participating in a ritual or a teaching makes someone your guru is a somewhat strange idea if you have no idea of the meaning of the teachings and so, on, and no faith in the teachings, and no interest in following them as your path.

Of course, this idea is a traditional idea, one which functions well in homogenous Buddhist society where everyone is more or less on the same page. But in our culture it really does not apply, in my opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Spray painting graffiti is not violence.

Queequeg said:
I'm not defending DHS in any way. But come on - this is not about graffiti.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, this is about incompetent law enforcement, state-sanctioned, extra-judicial murder, incompetent governance at the federal level, and so on. The violence we are seeing was entirely provoked by the police from the beginning. Reap what you sow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 28th, 2020 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I never graduated from a western school, not one, unless you count 6th grade.

Pero said:
Why not?

Malcolm wrote:
Oppositional personality disorder.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:



Danny said:
I don’t know what that means, sorry

Malcolm wrote:
People with PhD's who cannot find jobs in their fields, and so must make lattes and cappucinos and wait on tables.

Steel said:
Yes, It would truly suck to spend so much money and years in college and not get the job you are looking for.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. And, to bring up Danny's point, since they never learned how to make anything useful, they can't even get a good "working class" job, with which to pay off their loans.

In reality, education should consist of both reading, etc.,  as well as learning the basics of useful things like farming, carpentry, plumbing etc. As for myself, I am told I am an excellent cook. I worked in food industry for many years when I was in my late teens and 20's. If I need to get a job flipping burgers, no problem. I am something of an expert on that subject alone. Never been afraid to work, and though I come from an upper middle class family, I never graduated from a western school, not one, unless you count 6th grade. So I worked a lot of "shit" jobs. Dishwashing, construction, prep cooking, etc., etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Lama Lena Testimonies/Credentials
Content:
Pero said:
I mean, it seems to me that if this were true many wouldn't actually have "teachers"...

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. They have teachers in name only.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: How does Buddhism explain individual experience?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
And as the saying goes, “you cannot stand in the same river twice”. It is always changing. Humans and other sentient beings are just like that.

Malcolm wrote:
As it is said, "You cannot stand in the same river even once."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 7:53 PM
Title: Re: Mother sentient beings
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All sentient beings were mother at one time or another.

Mirror said:
I know, but why mother? Why not friends? Father? Other benefactors? Is this only a metaphor or mother is utterly pure unlike other beings in this lifetime?

Thank you all for your replies.

Malcolm wrote:
Because mothers carry us in their bodies, feed us from their bodies, and will do anything to protect us.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We need more walls of moms.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/25/world/americas/protest-moms-power-police.html

Queequeg said:
Yep. This is great.

But, I can't help but think of the irony... some dumb kids try to burn down the federal courthouse, antagonize the security guards, said poorly trained security guards make a mess of it, quite possibly violating the constitution. Mom comes to protect the wayward kids and clean up their mess.

Malcolm wrote:
Those people are not rentacops. They are heavily-armed fascist thugs, sent in order to start riots against nonviolent protestors. Spray painting graffiti is not violence. It’s a legitimate tool of civil disobedience. This started in DC and has been spread to other cities with Democratic administrations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 8:28 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:


Steel said:
Blue collars don't get any respect from society. Someone with a 4 year degree in gender studies and no job prospects will be treated better than the trades person who make more than six figures.

Malcolm wrote:
Really? Is that why there are so many PhD baristas and waitrons?

Danny said:
I don’t know what that means, sorry

Malcolm wrote:
People with PhD's who cannot find jobs in their fields, and so must make lattes and cappucinos and wait on tables.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 6:58 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
Frankly, I'm impressed with how most of US law on the books is quite well thought out, if carried out properly.

Malcolm wrote:
Lawyers are highly educated people who are trained to think systematically, most of them anyway. Therefore, they tend to write well, and coherently, even when they are wrong. Neil Katyal, for example, is someone I admire immensely. John Yoo, the torture memo guy, not so much, but the latter still writes well, even though he has the ethics of a Torquemada.

TharpaChodron said:
If people were to look at how the LA Riots destroyed years of progress and community development in the South Central LA areas, it set the black residential communities of LA years behind and they are still recovering. Family owned businesses destroyed, retail and business investments left, a general fear to invest or even live in the communities, even by black families themselves. But hey, if people think this is the way to change our system, then go for it and see how it works out.

Malcolm wrote:
This women articulates why this happens in communities of color quite eloquently, I think:




This is just a snippet, but the whole interview is worth finding and watching, if you have not yet seen it.

America has two sins it needs to deal with: genocide of native people and the importation of slave labor by and for capitalists.

BTW, Senator Tom Cotton (R) today expressed his opinion that "slavery was a necessary evil."

TharpaChodron said:
In the interview, Cotton said the role of slavery can’t be overlooked.

“We have to study the history of slavery and its role and impact on the development of our country because otherwise we can’t understand our country. As the Founding Fathers said, it was the necessary evil upon which the union was built, but the union was built in a way, as Lincoln said, to put slavery on the course to its ultimate extinction,” he said.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2020/jul/26/bill-by-cotton-targets-curriculum-on-slavery/?news

This is why people are on the streets in Portland and everywhere else—because we continue to elect racists like him. Ironic that his last name is cotton, that he is from Arkansas, and he is defending our legacy of slavery.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:


Queequeg said:
I know a former Weatherman.

Malcolm wrote:
There are quite a few still alive.

Queequeg said:
I expressed admiration for them.

Malcolm wrote:
I read Prairie Fire when it was sent to my house by someone who saw me born in 1962. When I was 12.

Queequeg said:
He told me how he was on his way to the safehouse that blew up and killed his friends. He insisted there are better ways. There was someone telling me the same thing.

Malcolm wrote:
The above person used to visit his SLA friends in jail. He was never arrested for anything, and worked on the Berkeley Free Clinic ambulance for decades. But such associations don't rub off. That is not my credential. I didn't do any of that. I did attend endless civl rights marches in the mid-60s with my mother, as well as pro-feminist marches.

Of my own volition, I went to the DC No Nukes Rally in 1979.

But I don't like crowds, never have. So I don't do protest marches. Monkey wrenching...well...But I deeply respect the people who march, when they are marching for causes in which I believe. Getting rid of Donald Trump is a cause in which I believe.

The only reason I mention any of the above is that you decided to front with it, in order to establish your street cred. But you and I are still privileged, upper-middle class dudes, who probably have more education than common sense.

Queequeg said:
Now, want to do some impact litigation? Organize political campaigns? Fight the hard ground game measured in inches? I'm your soldier.

Malcolm wrote:
Your arrogance towards and disdain for the people in Portland is a little strange, frankly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Danny said:
What I’m asking really is the value we put onto skills, and not just monetary value, but also a social value. Class barriers must also not be included in our enlightened society. Must have a mutual respect across the board. The man or woman that builds the road, the bridge for others to cycle on to work has a equal value in society.

Steel said:
Blue collars don't get any respect from society. Someone with a 4 year degree in gender studies and no job prospects will be treated better than the trades person who make more than six figures.

Malcolm wrote:
Really? Is that why there are so many PhD baristas and waitrons?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Danny said:
Free education with no barriers to all.

Norwegian said:
Welcome to Scandinavia and the Nordic countries.

Danny said:
I’m assuming realistically, IQ is not distributed equally, not everyone can, or should be a PhD, we would still need crafts and trades people to make things for everyone’s benefit. How does that work out in your part of the world?

Malcolm wrote:
Some of the smartest people I know are craftspeople. Some of them however could have definitely benefitted from a more rounded education.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:



Queequeg said:
Right. Proof that they don't understand what they're fighting against. Just acting out against a facade. Navigating cause and effect fails because they fundamentally do not understand the reality.

That's why there needs to be deescalation. People need to catch their breath, regroup, and come up with a better plan. Until then - demented ballet between protesters and a state that is also out of its mind.

Malcolm wrote:
There can be no de-escalation if the authorities are deliberately escalating violence. The protestors are not demented. They are correct.

Queequeg said:
What is demented is the whole dance.

Malcolm wrote:
The wall of moms is not demented. They are correct.

Queequeg said:
We have a big violence problem in this country. Continuing the demented ballet will not get us anywhere.

Malcolm wrote:
We need more walls of moms.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/25/world/americas/protest-moms-power-police.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Danny said:
Ok so we start with education, if we had to strip out all the indoctrination, what basic ethical education do we teach the youngsters? And does that education belong at home or in a school?
Could a reasonable ethical standard of education be reached by all? What would be the final aim of that education?

Malcolm wrote:
The aim of education is to produce people capable of educating themselves. For that, a high level of literacy is required. I would argue that reading-heavy, secular, evidence-based curriculum is a desiderata. Our present STEM-oriented education is producing students with no understanding of history, literature, and so on. In fact, for the most part, American students still read and write at an elementary school level by the time they get to college, which is why English courses are required for all freshman college students. It's truly pathetic. I understand that this is not necessarily the case in Europe. But in the US, we churn out dummies by the millions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Enlightened Society
Content:
Danny said:
Off spin topic to discuss big ideas for an enlightened society. Let’s use the Buddhist teachings as a framework.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddha never did. That wasn't his job. You cannot have an awakened society with people who are not awake. The best one can hope for is society based on reasonable secular ethics concerning the economy, governance, education, and so forth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Identity politics, intersectionality and the left
Content:


Danny said:
Let it go to shit, what happens in the world is none of my business, if it comes to my door, then I’ll deal with it my way.

Malcolm wrote:
Hinayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It's really quite simple. It is talismanic magick. It's like burning an effigy.

Queequeg said:
Right. Proof that they don't understand what they're fighting against. Just acting out against a facade. Navigating cause and effect fails because they fundamentally do not understand the reality.

That's why there needs to be deescalation. People need to catch their breath, regroup, and come up with a better plan. Until then - demented ballet between protesters and a state that is also out of its mind.

Malcolm wrote:
There can be no de-escalation if the authorities are deliberately escalating violence. The protestors are not demented. They are correct.



Queequeg said:
Yes. The police are a known commodity. So the plan is...

ONCE MORE INTO THE BREACH!

Doing the same ineffectual thing over and over is insane.

Malcolm wrote:
Tell that to your hero, MLK. The point of nonviolent protest is to TRIGGER state violence against unarmed protestors. That is why it is a devastating tactic to use against oppressors. It is in fact working. So, once more into the breach.

Queequeg said:
What we observe in the nineteen-sixties is that there was a nontrivial number of white moderates who were open to policies that advanced racial equality, and were also very concerned about order. The needle that civil-rights activists were trying to thread was: How do you advance racial equality, and capture the attention of often indifferent or hostile white moderates outside of the South, and at the same time grow a coalition of allies? And over time the strategy that evolved was one of nonviolent protest, which actively sought to trigger police chiefs like Bull Connor [in Birmingham, Alabama,] to engage in spectacles of violence that attracted national media and would, in the language of the nineteen-sixties, “shock the conscience of the nation.” So it isn’t just nonviolence that is effective, but nonviolence met with state and vigilante brutality that is effective.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-violent-protests-change-politics

The fact is that the protestors in Portland and elsewhere are nonviolent and always have been. They are just following Gandhi's approach.

Queequeg said:
On May 21, some 2,500 marchers ignored warnings from police and made an unarmed advance on the Dharasana depot.

American journalist Webb Miller was on the scene, and he later described what followed. “Suddenly,” he wrote, “at a word of command, scores of native police rushed upon the advancing marchers and rained blows on their heads…Not one of the marchers even raised an arm to fend off the blows. They went down like ten-pins.”

Miller’s harrowing account of the beatings circulated widely in the international media, and was even read aloud in the U.S. Congress. Winston Churchill—no great fan of Gandhi—would later admit that the protests and their aftermath had “inflicted such humiliation and defiance as has not been known since the British first trod the soil of India.”



Malcolm wrote:
https://www.history.com/news/gandhi-salt-march-india-british-colonial-rule

But they do need to stop trying to wash tear gas away with water and milk:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:



PeterC said:
Of course that would be if we followed the law, which the trump faction seems singularly unwilling to do...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is their whole point: screw the law. The only thing that matters is power.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Identity politics, intersectionality and the left
Content:
Dan74 said:
but a system that is based on perpetual growth appears to me to be fundamentally unsustainable.

Danny said:
Been that way since the Bronze Age.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, so why fix anything? Slavery, oppression of women. We might as well just go straight to this:



Why f#%k around?

As I said, capitalism is death cult.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 27th, 2020 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Lama Lena Testimonies/Credentials
Content:
Pero said:
If you received teachings from her she is already your guru.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.

Pero said:
How so?

Malcolm wrote:
For someone to be your guru, you must understand something from them in a concrete way. Just going and listening to some teachings really does not mean anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 10:59 PM
Title: Antifa's Strategy
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:


Queequeg said:
It would be great if the Portland protesters could explain how their vandalism of federal buildings relates to whatever cause they're doing it for.

Malcolm wrote:
It's really quite simple. It is talismanic magick. It's like burning an effigy.

Queequeg said:
They stand in stark contrast to the way police across the US basically rioted against BLM.

Malcolm wrote:
The police always riot against 2 things: black people and labor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:



PeterC said:
The violence from the police against the BLM protests just seems so...pointless.  They get dressed up and armed, carried enough weapons to invade a small country, but there seems to be no plan.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a plan: provoke violence at any cost.

PeterC said:
When they had the extinction riots in London last year the police tactics were brutal, but very effective.  If you have to deploy police, it's in everyone's interest that they do the job quickly so things go back to normal.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not part of the plan. The plan is to try and justify canceling the election, cause "riots."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:


Queequeg said:
She looks as ridiculous as the cosplay right wing revolutionaries with their bullet proof vests, rifles, and protruding beer gut.

Malcolm wrote:
Spoken from the protective confines of your comfortable, upper-middle class home. Your privilege is showing, dude.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
Content:
Minobu said:
It was malcolm that helped me realize that Sutras are Buddha..i owe  so much to that man...some of the stuff he said years ago finally made sense to me.

All i want for christmas is for Malcolm to turn into the grand daddy of all Nichiren Practitioners...

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, it wil never happen. In Dzogchen, the result does not arise from a cause; the intimate instruction does not depend on a scripture; and buddhahood does not arise from mind. From a Nicherin point of view I am much worse than a Zen, Pure Land, or Shingon heretic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Lama Lena Testimonies/Credentials
Content:
Pero said:
If you received teachings from her she is already your guru.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 7:44 PM
Title: Re: Why do so many forum users use only the Wylie transliteration for Tibetan words?
Content:
Archie2009 said:
German is not my first language. That was part of the problem. Highly technical discussions in German would be a bridge too far and not enjoyable. I am also unsure whether to start with Classical Tibetan again or work through one of the modern spoken Tibetan courses first. There seem to be a couple of good courses for the spoken language in English, but only Wilson's Translating Buddhism from Tibetan for the classical language.

White Sakura said:
What for do you need the spoken Tibetan? You need a tandem partner then. And then is the question what you have to offer in exchange. I already found out that I am in a good position, since I speak high-German and I saw a Tibetan person on a Swiss Language partner side looking for high-German speaking parter.German seems to be sometimes a practical skill.You can only offer your mother-tongue on such sides. They all want a native speaker-partner.
But now I got: I need Kham dialect and what is if she speaks Lhasa dialect or whatever. There seems to be nothing like high-German or oxford English in Tibetan.

What I need is only the correct Kham-pronounciation for some words I know in Wylie.But I gave the big project up. It seems to be one of the most difficult languages in the world. I do not know why it is not on the official list for the most difficult languages.

Malcolm wrote:
Grammatically, Tibetan is very simple. Like German, it is an agglutinative language. But it has such a wide variety of dialects, Tibetans from Amdo use Chinese to talk to Tibetans from Lhasa, for example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Q is a New Yorker, for him all of America is a backwater.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I can't think of how to say this without sounding like I am "co opting" myself, but it actually connects to the identity politics thread, so I'm going to try to respond to the original article:

I hate to say it, but all this is actually not exclusively a Black issue. It's a Black-led movement to be sure, and for sure, black communities and people, and in particular young black men die more often at the hands of police, and certainly suffer disproportionately within the justice system in particular. As is often the case, Black communities are (by necessity) at the forefront of this kind of activism, but they are not the only one's with devastating experiences with the justice system, nor are they the only ones with a stake in the outcomes here. I grew up in a city where homeless people of a variety colors were regularly murdered by the police, and I'm sure still are.

The justice system as it stands now is terrible to a wide range of people (mainly poor - once you are poor you stand much more chance of becoming involved in "the system", for a host of reasons), to varying degrees. A homeless white drug addict suffers due to it's inequities, so does a mentally ill grandmother on SSI, so does the domestic violence victim not getting the proper help. All these people would undoubtedly suffer worse if they were Black, but the issues here affect everyone, other than those well-off and callous enough to not care.

Honestly, this stuff affects pretty much anyone who is poor and ends up doing time, or ends up being involved with the cops.

So I get where the author is coming from, spectacle-like white "ally" protests are definitely cringe worthy, and perhaps the people engaging in them are just dilettantes. However, as much as I respect that this movement has been initiated by BLM, it can't end by credentialing people to protest, everyone should care about reform  and overhaul of the justice system. If anything, the performative (I hate that word, but it fits here) type of "allyship" activism I've seen around some of the protests probably lends itself to stuff like the Naked White Yoga Lady protest. I love what BLM is doing, I have nothing but respect and support for their demands. I believe in reparations, and all the sorts of these things, but we need to move to model of shared values to protest over, not social permission to protest based on demographics.
I am proposing that we take the cause of Black Lives Matter into those places where tear gas and rubber bullets and federal agents cannot find us, and where there is less risk of spectacle distracting from our true aims. In boardrooms, in schools, in city councils, in the halls of justice, in the smoky backrooms of a duplicitous government — that is where we will finally dismantle the gears of the brutal, racist machine that has been terrorizing black Americans and hollowing out the moral character of this nation since its inception.
First of all, I have no idea what this means. People have already been trying to address systemic racism in city councils, schools etc. for most of my lifetime, and while there's been laudable work done, it hasn't done a thing to change the brutality of America's growing Police State. See this is the whole issue, this person (and rightfully so perhaps from their perspective) sees this as entirely a Black issue. Many people don't. I acknowledge that Black people and communities suffer the worst in the justice system, by far, and I acknowledge that they are often (again by necessity) at the forefront of reform efforts - this deserves acknowledgement...however, it is rotten for pretty much -all poor- people. If someone does not understand that, they fundamentally do not understand America, frankly. The "machine" is not only racist, and seeing it as only racist (which seems uniquely American, frankly) is missing some important nuance, in my opinion.

So criticize dumb protests, that's great. That last paragraph though, it just sounds like an excuse to 1) tell white people they don't have enough of a stake here to make their own decision about protesting (which isn't true, especially for the poor ones), and 2) to go back to business as usual. Kind of a bizarre request, from my point of view, especially given the circumstances.



Queequeg said:
You f'in hayseeds. Jeez. Way to go Portland to be a joke. You can draw a line through Rachel Dolezol to this shit.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Portland is a major metropolitan center, the second most populous city in the PNW, what on earth are you talking about? You think everyone there is a Portlandia caricature?

Everything I'm hearing about the protest on the ground is just like they have been everywhere else - legitimate protest with a few assholes, and huge law enforcement over reaction to everything. Blaming this on the protestors is kind of gross.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: What was Nichiren's issue with Zen?
Content:
Queequeg said:
He had an issue with Zen that claims a transmission outside the sutras. Basically, he doubted their oral lineage and thought their iconoclasm toward sutra was hypocritical and fake.

There's a good comedy bit in Conversation between a Sage and Unenlightened Man with a comical fictionalization of a zen practitioner. It actually aligns well with some of the jokers who claim Zen lineages and post here. This is not to disparage all zen practitioners, by any means. Just the Zen fool stereotypes.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry for butting in  here,  but according 9th century Tibetan records, what Bodhidharma said was that once the view has been experientially ascertained, at that point it is an error to continue to rely on books, since at that point there is no further need.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: When does a day end?
Content:
Tenma said:
In terms of daily commitment and auspicious days, when does a day officially end and begin?

Malcolm wrote:
Begins and ends at dawn.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Identity politics, intersectionality and the left
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Malcolm, I'm not objecting to any of that kind of analysis, I think I've actually made that clear. While this may have been the origin of the term, things have changed quite a bit since then, and what's generally referred to as 'identity politics' and 'intersectionality' can mean a pretty wide range of stuff, including what I'm talking about, which is people who are really of a "liberal" political disposition (as opposed to radical) simply trying to enforce some kind of ideological purity  on their peers, or simply navel gazing academic models about the 'intersection of identities' often unconnected to anything practical.

Malcolm wrote:
When we know the precise origin of such ideas, we can more easily push back when those very same ideas are abused or misconstrued, no? I mean, imagine the look of shock when you inform someone, who you think is being a pill, that identity politics grew out of a black lesbian response to white lesbian separatist privilege. It should knock the wind right out of their sails.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Portland’s protests were supposed to be about black lives. Now, they’re white spectacle.
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
Opinion by E.D. Mondainé
July 23, 2020 at 10:51 a.m. PDT
E.D. Mondainé is president of the Portland, Ore., branch of the NAACP.
Early in his activism, Malcolm X was asked by a young white woman what she could do to help the cause of civil rights. He famously replied, “Nothing.” Years later, he regretted dismissing her so abruptly, because he came to believe there was much she could do to advance the cause of justice for black people in the United States. But I am quite certain that striking yoga poses nude on the streets of Portland, Ore., was not on his list of actionable items.
Images of “Naked Athena,” as the protester has been labeled, have gone viral, her unclothed confrontation with police earning her accolades as a brave ally of the cause. But I see something else: a beneficiary of white privilege dancing vainly on a stage that was originally created to raise up the voices of my oppressed brothers and sisters. In this, she is not alone. As the demonstrations continue every night in Portland, many people with their own agendas are co-opting, and distracting attention from, what should be our central concern: the Black Lives Matter movement.
The protests that have gone on for weeks in Portland and around the country had a very specific origin. The killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis prompted a nationwide reckoning with the original and savage crime of slavery our country committed against African Americans. This crime has been reverberating through every generation in this country, black and white, for 401 years. That monstrous crime has finally caught up with us as a nation. I do not believe it is a time for spectacle.
Unfortunately, “spectacle” is now the best way to describe Portland’s protests. Vandalizing government buildings and hurling projectiles at law enforcement draw attention — but how do these actions stop police from killing black people? What are antifa and other leftist agitators achieving for the cause of black equality? The “Wall of Moms,” while perhaps well-intentioned, ends up redirecting attention away from the urgent issue of murdered black bodies. This might ease the consciences of white, affluent women who have previously been silent in the face of black oppression, but it’s fair to ask: Are they really furthering the cause of justice, or is this another example of white co-optation?
There is more at stake here than who appears most often on nightly TV broadcasts. Everyone seeking to advance justice in Portland faces great danger. Right now, there are unmarked, unnamed federal forces kidnapping our citizens off the streets without justification or authority. The mayor of Portland and governor of Oregon have asked them to leave, to no avail. We know this is a violation of our Constitution, but with President Trump promising only more occupations in more cities, we ignore this risk at our peril.

At their core, the Trump administration’s actions in Portland are a deception. The federal government’s response is no display of strength — rather, it is a deliberate cover for Trump’s weakness. The president and his allies want spectacle, be it a naked yogi or the next shocking display of force. They need to distract the country by engaging our movement in empty battles where they have the advantage.
If we engage them now, we do so on their terms, where they have created the conditions for a war without rules, without accountability and without the protection of our Constitution. This makes me fearful for the safety of everyone demonstrating in Portland. That’s why we need to remember: What is happening in Portland is the fuse of a great, racist backlash that the Trump administration is baiting us to light.
We cannot fall for their deception. We cannot settle for spectacles that endanger us all. This is a moment for serious action — to once again take up the mantle of the civil rights era by summoning the same conviction and determination our forebears did. We welcome our white brothers and sisters in this struggle. In fact, we need them. But I must ask them to remain humbly attuned to the opportunity of this moment — and to reflect on whether any actions they take will truly help establish justice, or whether they are simply for show.

Thursday night, I will lead a rally in downtown Portland to refocus public attention where it belongs: on redeeming a guilty nation. But recent events might be a sign that our work in the streets should be coming to an end.
I am not suggesting retreat. Instead, I am proposing that we take the cause of Black Lives Matter into those places where tear gas and rubber bullets and federal agents cannot find us, and where there is less risk of spectacle distracting from our true aims. In boardrooms, in schools, in city councils, in the halls of justice, in the smoky backrooms of a duplicitous government — that is where we will finally dismantle the gears of the brutal, racist machine that has been terrorizing black Americans and hollowing out the moral character of this nation since its inception.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/23/portlands-protests-were-supposed-be-about-black-lives-now-theyre-white-spectacle/


Interesting perspective.

Malcolm wrote:
George Floyd's murder opened up a can of worms that exposed the Trump Administration for what it is: a power grab by the far right. Trump is creating this spectacle. But how can people just go home when there are jackboots on US streets?

I totally understand this man's perspective, and I completely agree with him.

But what passes for Democracy in the US, imperfect as it is, with all its institutional flaws, is at heightened risk right now, agreed? Letting the Barr's thugs go unopposed is, I think, an error.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 26th, 2020 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
Honestly though, if you guys haven't taken something like Cultural Comp, or another course heavily invested in people like Bell Hooks, Judith Butler, etc...you don't really know quite I'm talking about. I'm not making some dumb reflexive argument about "political correctness run awry" or whatever, simply that a lot of the intellectual currents behind "intersectionality" are ...well, bewilderingly incoherent, and are unfortunately what underpins a lot of debate on the American left these days.

Malcolm wrote:
I assume you are familiar with the origin of so-called identity politics? If not, it arose out of The Combahee River Collective Statement, a black lesbian feminist response to white radical lesbian separatists in the 1970's:
Although we are feminists and Lesbians, we feel solidarity with progressive Black men and do not advocate the fractionalization that white women who are separatists demand. Our situation as Black people necessitates that we have solidarity around the fact of race, which white women of course do not need to have with white men, unless it is their negative solidarity as racial oppressors. We struggle together with Black men against racism, while we also struggle with Black men about sexism.
And:
Above all else, Our politics initially sprang from the shared belief that Black women are inherently valuable, that our liberation is a necessity not as an adjunct to somebody else's may because of our need as human persons for autonomy. This may seem so obvious as to sound simplistic, but it is apparent that no other ostensibly progressive movement has ever consIdered our specific oppression as a priority or worked seriously for the ending of that oppression. Merely naming the pejorative stereotypes attributed to Black women (e.g. mammy, matriarch, Sapphire, whore, bulldagger), let alone cataloguing the cruel, often murderous, treatment we receive, Indicates how little value has been placed upon our lives during four centuries of bondage in the Western hemisphere. We realize that the only people who care enough about us to work consistently for our liberation are us. Our politics evolve from a healthy love for ourselves, our sisters and our community which allows us to continue our struggle and work.

This focusing upon our own oppression is embodied in the concept of identity politics. We believe that the most profound and potentially most radical politics come directly out of our own identity, as opposed to working to end somebody else's oppression. In the case of Black women this is a particularly repugnant, dangerous, threatening, and therefore revolutionary concept because it is obvious from looking at all the political movements that have preceded us that anyone is more worthy of liberation than ourselves. We reject pedestals, queenhood, and walking ten paces behind. To be recognized as human, levelly human, is enough.

We believe that sexual politics under patriarchy is as pervasive in Black women's lives as are the politics of class and race. We also often find it difficult to separate race from class from sex oppression because in our lives they are most often experienced simultaneously. We know that there is such a thing as racial-sexual oppression which is neither solely racial nor solely sexual, e.g., the history of rape of Black women by white men as a weapon of political repression.
http://circuitous.org/scraps/combahee.html


Note, the inclusion of what has now become known as "intersectionality" in red. How anyone can dispute any of the above is quite beyond me.

Identitarianism is basically rebranded European fascism, which sees its origins in France in the French New Right (Nouvelle Droit), the granddaddy of today's alt-right, founded by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_de_Benoist and others in 1968. This movement exercises great influences on such people as Renaud Camus, author of the Great Replacement "theory," and so on in France, and in the US, people like Steve Bannon, Steven Miller, as well as the foreign policy of the Trump Administration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Identity politics, intersectionality and the left
Content:
Dan74 said:
I think JD and others have already discussed many pertinent issues here. To me the key observation appears to be a dismal lack of solidarity and a practical focus on the Left.

Malcolm wrote:
There is really only on important political issue, the environment and sustaining life on thus planet. Modem capitalism is a death cult.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club
Content:
Grigoris said:
Aggregate of formations ( samskaraskandha) p230 and 231 of the GELONG LODRO SANGPO version.

Yes, that is right, it is only two pages.

Malcolm wrote:
It is described in much more detail in chapter two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Questions on consistency and validity of mahayana sutra's
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
Historically, we know that the Mahayana sutra's are later creations attributed to the Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we do not know this. Sutras are not books.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Why do so many forum users use only the Wylie transliteration for Tibetan words?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Regional pronunciation is so varied, as to be impractical. For  example rgyal is pronounced Gyal in central Tibet, Jyal in Kham, Rgyal in Ladakh. There are many other such issues.

White Sakura said:
means, the "Ghost letters" are not everywhere Ghost letters? At least in your example in Ladakh ist the "r" spoken.

Malcolm wrote:
The prefixes and suffixes all used to be pronounced at one point in Tibetan history, that’s why they are there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 7:17 PM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:
jake said:
To me it's like ranting against those far-left standard deviationists.

Malcolm wrote:
The GOP politicizes even standard deviation in statistics these days: fake news.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 7:15 PM
Title: Re: Identity politics, intersectionality and the left
Content:
Grigoris said:
I believe that a bit of naval gazing is in order.

I started a discussion on my Facebook timeline a while ago asking "who/which/what is the new revolutionary subject"?

Seems to me that we keep relying on outdated ideas, not having learned from the failures of "real-time" communism.

There are very few people around that will fall for that idea again and/or will  be willing to sacrifice their lives for it.

Plus modern society is quite different to early-industrial society.

And people do not really have a notion of what a collective (or collective action) is.  They understand corporations but not collectives.

Not that economic class is not a key factor.  Of course it is.  But I don't think it is enough any more.

Discrimination and oppression (and it's opposite privilege) are more individualised in our modern societies.  Mainly because post-colonial modern societies are not AS homogeneous as earlier societies.  This is not to say that earlier societies were not heterogeneous, they were, but not to the same degree.

You cannot tell me that a middle-class straight black man is the same as his white neighbour.

You cannot tell me that an unemployed gay Mexican male suffers in the same way as a working class cis gender Black woman.

They don't.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 7:14 PM
Title: Re: Identity politics, intersectionality and the left
Content:
PeterC said:
My issue with it - and I can’t say for sure that I really understand it, to be honest, because it’s intellectual underpinning seems so flaky - is that it doesn’t seem to work towards any particular important results.

I take a rather simplistic view of social movements, that they are useful insofar as they solve an important problem; and otherwise they’re just aesthetics.  Important problems are things like the environment, overpopulation, resource scarcity, material oppression of groups of people, and so forth.

What this movement seems to be creating is endless navel-gazing and divisiveness, but not much by way of outcomes.

I may not fully understand it.  Perhaps there’s a bigger picture I’m not seeing.  Moreover you really can’t hold college age kids to too high a standard, I had all sorts of dumb ideas when I was their age that I thought were world-changing and radical too.

Malcolm wrote:
Precisely, just another right-wing tempest in a teapot.

PeterC said:
If you applied the same standards in both directions - characterized the right wing in terms of what their college-age supporters, like the Proud Boys, say and do - it would be a truly horrible comparison.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is why I specified right-wing. The proud boys are fascists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 7:04 PM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:
Archie2009 said:
llies.

And I was reticent to mention the ceremonies where white allies wash the feet of black people and other disturbing cult like behaviour. Frankly, I could never get on board with that.

Malcolm wrote:
Christians  must really freak you out then:
Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
— John 13:12


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 6:55 PM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Grigoris said:
Seems that for some people "far-Left" refers to anybody supporting democratic and constitutional rights...

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 6:54 PM
Title: Re: Why do so many forum users use only the Wylie transliteration for Tibetan words?
Content:
White Sakura said:
I try to go though an old thread and I know so much about Tibetan language that I can read the Tibetan letters, I know about the "ghost"-letters, the suffixes and prefixes. Well and that brought me to a true interest in the pronunciation-transcription.

I know that the Wylie-transcription tells not much about how the word is pronounced. Which is not very practical. I have the impression that many users here stick only to the Wylie, when writing a Tibetan word. I mean, if I see something like. Bgr... in the beginning of the word, I think, it´s the Wylie.
I even think that an official pronunciation transliteration to roman letters could be helpful to preserve the Tibetan language.
I mean like grammar books written in that. That make it possible to be able to speak Tibetan but only be able to read the roman version. ( Not helpful for Buddhist scholars of course).
I had my child in Tibetan lessons, but it didn´t work out with the strain at school. And maybe some Tibetan refugee families wherever in the world they live, might have the same problem. The Tibetan script is so difficult, not because it has other letters than the roman letters, but because you must find out which letter to cross out, which is the main letter and so on...and then comes the school in the country where they live. So I think, the easy transliteration to roman letters is a really good thing.

And I  like it if a text is written like: "Wylie:.........Pronunciation:..........".really nice is, if also the Tibetan letters come but of course that would be much more work and many people might not know it or like me, do not have the technical know-how, to make them appear here. But to type the roman letters pronunciation, why not?

Malcolm wrote:
Regional pronunciation is so varied, as to be impractical. For  example rgyal is pronounced Gyal in central Tibet, Jyal in Kham, Rgyal in Ladakh. There are many other such issues.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 9:51 AM
Title: Re: Identity politics, intersectionality and the left
Content:
PeterC said:
My issue with it - and I can’t say for sure that I really understand it, to be honest, because it’s intellectual underpinning seems so flaky - is that it doesn’t seem to work towards any particular important results.

I take a rather simplistic view of social movements, that they are useful insofar as they solve an important problem; and otherwise they’re just aesthetics.  Important problems are things like the environment, overpopulation, resource scarcity, material oppression of groups of people, and so forth.

What this movement seems to be creating is endless navel-gazing and divisiveness, but not much by way of outcomes.

I may not fully understand it.  Perhaps there’s a bigger picture I’m not seeing.  Moreover you really can’t hold college age kids to too high a standard, I had all sorts of dumb ideas when I was their age that I thought were world-changing and radical too.

Malcolm wrote:
Precisely, just another right-wing tempest in a teapot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: Madhyamakavata
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
http://illuminationofthetruethought.com/downloads/

cloudburst said:
Appreciated
how would you rate Geshe Michael as a translator?

Malcolm wrote:
I generally refrain from commenting on other translator’s work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 7:09 AM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
If anything the indentarian/CRT stuff -is- an attempt to corral everyone into the same set of ideas, so I agree.

Malcolm wrote:
The only identitarians I see are racist white men who are freaked by demographic change.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Then you don't live in the right place to see what I'm talking about. There's definitely an unhealthy end of the identarian left, spend enough time in corners of the left coast and you see it. I would not consider it  a "far left" ideology at all though, I'd consider part of mainstream academy-inspired liberal culture,  which is why this is the dominant form of thought when you take a class on cultural competency, diversity, etc.

I do agree that the identarianism of the right is a much larger problem, of course.

Honestly though, if you guys haven't taken something like Cultural Comp, or another course heavily invested in people like Bell Hooks, Judith Butler, etc...you don't really know quite I'm talking about. I'm not making some dumb reflexive argument about "political correctness run awry" or whatever, simply that a lot of the intellectual currents behind "intersectionality" are ...well, bewilderingly incoherent, and are unfortunately what underpins a lot of debate on the American left these days.  We watched a video in one of my classes that could have practically been made by the PMRC and implicitly claimed that young black males grow up in a cycle of violence and domestic abuse due to rap music and it's magical effect on violence-prone male minds. These are people calling themselves liberals.

I live in a community where white people literally cannot have an honest conversation on race because of this years of this kind of crap. Everything is just about proving you are an "ally" that checks the boxes in activist circles.

The pattern is just to shore up your own credentials to prove you are not racist, but actually do nothing about racism. It's almost pavlovian, all the classes on diversity, equity, and whatever else, amusingly many of them given in the justice system, which is monstrously racist. So you have all the people in the justice system doing everything they can to be "inclusive", "diverse" and whatever else, but little to no effect of the material conditions that create the bulk of suffering due to systemic racism and all its legacies.

I feel like where I live much of the time "intersectional" ideas become institutionalized and act as a kind of comfort mechanism for white guilt, and very little else. If you do all the right things personally, pay attention to microagressions, be a good ally, use the right terms etc. then you can act like you've done your thing. Don't get me wrong, this stuff is miles better than open racism, and is a sign (I suppose) of some kind of progress. It's also pretty hypocritical in some ways.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I live in New England, an even though there are hysterical college students, we are a bit more sensible than the left coast.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
If I had to design something to limit the left's effectiveness in organizing, it would be something similar to these ideas, where in practice activists are constantly means-testing and credentialing each other, instead of organizing together. Yet, that often seems to be what it looks like.

Malcolm wrote:
The "problem" with the left, is that the left actually thinks and has thoughts, which naturally create diversity and conflict. The last thing the American left wants is to imitate the ideological lockstep "discipline" of the GOP.

Johnny Dangerous said:
If anything the indentarian/CRT stuff -is- an attempt to corral everyone into the same set of ideas, so I agree.

Malcolm wrote:
The only identitarians I see are racist white men who are freaked by demographic change.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 2:15 AM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
If I had to design something to limit the left's effectiveness in organizing, it would be something similar to these ideas, where in practice activists are constantly means-testing and credentialing each other, instead of organizing together. Yet, that often seems to be what it looks like.

Malcolm wrote:
The "problem" with the left, is that the left actually thinks and has thoughts, which naturally create diversity and conflict. The last thing the American left wants is to imitate the ideological lockstep "discipline" of the GOP.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:
Archie2009 said:
in safe spaces, a new voluntary form of (racial) segregation

Malcolm wrote:
You mean like white flight into the suburbs?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 25th, 2020 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:
Archie2009 said:
I guess being progressive in the USA is synonymous with speaking and believing in the language of Critical Race Theory, Intersectionality and all that nonsense.

Malcolm wrote:
You are not American, so of course you don't get it.

Archie2009 said:
Critical Race Theory was developed out of legal scholarship. It provides a critical analysis of race and racism from a legal point of view. Since its inception within legal scholarship CRT has spread to many disciplines.  CRT has basic tenets that guide its framework. These tenets are interdisciplinary and can be approached from different branches of learning.

CRT recognizes that racism is engrained in the fabric and system of the American society. The individual racist need not exist to note that institutional racism is pervasive in the dominant culture. This is the analytical lens that CRT uses in examining existing power structures. CRT identifies that these power structures are based on white privilege and white supremacy, which perpetuates the marginalization of people of color. CRT also rejects the traditions of liberalism and meritocracy. Legal discourse says that the law is neutral and colorblind, however, CRT challenges this legal “truth” by examining liberalism and meritocracy as a vehicle for self-interest, power, and privilege.  CRT also recognizes that liberalism and meritocracy are often stories heard from those with wealth, power, and privilege. These stories paint a false picture of meritocracy; everyone who works hard can attain wealth, power, and privilege while ignoring the systemic inequalities that institutional racism provides.

Intersectionality within CRT points to the multidimensionality of oppressions and recognizes that race alone cannot account for disempowerment. “Intersectionality means the examination of race, sex, class, national origin, and sexual orientation, and how their combination plays out in various settings.”[1] This is an important tenet in pointing out that CRT is critical of the many oppressions facing people of color and does not allow for a one–dimensional approach of the complexities of our world.

Malcolm wrote:
https://spacrs.wordpress.com/what-is-critical-race-theory/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
200 more LEO’s [fascist thugs directed by Barr, actually] in Chicago are not going to make any difference in combatting gun violence in that city. But increased funding fir childcare, education, social services, etc., would make a huge difference, demonstrably so. I find your basic argument here to be pretty racist, actually. As if the real problem isn’t poverty and systemic oppression of urban communities of color, and is really just that cities are somehow breeding grounds for “crime.”

PeterC said:
All the cities receiving this treatment will be solid democrat votes in 2016. That way trump gets to look tough on crime but doesn’t hurt any swing counties.  There is no legitimate law enforcement purpose here, it’s a cynical electoral ploy

Malcolm wrote:
Worse, he is causing police riots on purpose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 6:40 PM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
tingdzin said:
Well, where to begin.
Malcolm wrote:
If we can pay for viagra fir officers, we can certainly afford to pay for gender reassignment surgery.

tingdzin said:
This is a logical non sequiter. Did I say that the ACLU should file suits on behalf of viagra users?

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that there is no need for it. Officers get their viagra. Gender reassignment surgery is a legitimate medical need, and as long as there are people who feel a need to have such surgery, they should not be discriminated against, just as impotent officers are not discriminated against.
I am sure you know what’s going on in Central America. And, yes, it is our problem.
It may or may not be our problem. the point is, it is not a civil liberties problem.
Um, yes it is.


The fact that this administration has an explicitly racist immigration policy that the ACLU has fought from the beginning does not make their stance “radically leftist.” It makes their stance a defense of the Constitution.
And what part of the constitution are you referring to specifically? Everything that is ethical is not written into the Constitution, and we can't pretend that it is. Or at least we shouldn't. Otherwise the Constitution just changes with every intellectual fashion.
In this case the relevant laws is the 1980 Refugee Act. It has never been declared unconstitutional, therefore it is constitutional as it stands. It would require a court to declare it unconstitutional to void the law. No, it is a sensible position considering all the facts. The police generally behave like an occupying army in communities of color, not peace officers. It is directly connected with civil liberties, since the principle violators of civil liberties are the police, who do so regularly and with complete impunity.
Well, rogue police are indeed probably the biggest or at least the most visible violators of civil liberties. They are, however, a necessity. Your rhetoric is utopian and not practical. An acquaintance of mine was recently pistol-whipped on the street in front of his house by a total stranger with some kind of vague grievance.  Can you say with a straight face that you would live in the inner city without any possible police protection? There a a lot of badasses out there who, for example, take advantage of legitimate protests to burn and plunder. and if you were cracked in the face with a deadly weapon by one, your views might change. even the mayor of Chicago (a black woman) is now inviting an increased police presence.
Funny how police are rarely around when crimes are committed. Was this assailant arrested? Was this in a city where significant funds had been redirected to other agencies?

200 more LEO’s [fascist thugs directed by Barr, actually] in Chicago are not going to make any difference in combatting gun violence in that city. But increased funding fir childcare, education, social services, etc., would make a huge difference, demonstrably so. I find your basic argument here to be pretty racist, actually. As if the real problem isn’t poverty and systemic oppression of urban communities of color, and is really just that cities are somehow breeding grounds for “crime.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 6:13 PM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:
Ayu said:
I think it is absolutely necessary and appropriate to address violent language against women by men and against this culture of misogyny.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez expresses it with much dignity.
She's wonderful.

Malcolm wrote:
The best American politics has to offer.  No wonder she scares the shit out of the GOP and establishment Dems alike.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
tingdzin said:
As far as the NRDC, I once got an e-bulletin telling me they were diverting some of their funds to Puerto Rican hurricane relief. When I asked politely what that had to do with Natural Resources conservation, I got a sanctimonious reply, asking me how dare I ask such a question. So I quit giving them money.

Malcolm wrote:
Not a radical leftist move.


tingdzin said:
The ACLU used to be for gay marriage, O.K., no problem. But this year they started supporting taxpayer-funded sex change operations. Is that a civil right?

Malcolm wrote:
If we can pay for viagra fir officers, we can certainly afford to pay for gender reassignment surgery.

tingdzin said:
Analysis | The military spends five times as much on Viagra as it would on transgender troops’ medical care
A look at Trump's claim of “tremendous” medical costs.
By Christopher Ingraham

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/07/26/the-military-spends-five-times-as-much-on-viagra-as-it-would-on-transgender-troops-medical-care/


tingdzin said:
IMO, there are more urgent things for them to concern themselves with, like in the Portland clip you posted. And the lawsuit you posted today is an example of what the ACLU used to be all about. Another example: years back, the ACLU used to stand for proper treatment of illegals in custody, which I am all for. During the Central American "asylum" caravans, they came out with a stance that amounted to advocating open borders.



Malcolm wrote:
Nonsense. Anyone who enters this country by any entry, whether by walking across the border, or through a port of entry, plane, boat, train, bus, or foot,  is entitled to ask for asylum. I am sure you know what’s going on in Central America. And, yes, it is our problem. The fact that this administration has an explicitly racist immigration policy that the ACLU has fought from the beginning does not make their stance “radically leftist.” It makes their stance a defense of the Constitution.

tingdzin said:
They have also come out for defunding the police (as opposed to reforming them), which is a far left position, that moreover has only very indirect connection with civil liberties.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a sensible position considering all the facts.  The police generally behave like an occupying army in communities of color, not peace officers. It is directly connected with civil liberties, since the principle violators of civil liberties are the police, who do so regularly and with complete impunity.

tingdzin said:
The same is true of sex education in elementary schools -- since when does this have to do with constitutional rights?

Malcolm wrote:
It has to do with establishment clause of the first amendment. Again, not a far left position.

tingdzin said:
#Me Too may or may not be a worthwhile movement, but, again, what does calling male chauvinists to account have to do with civil and constitutional rights?

Malcolm wrote:
Male chauvinists are the principle people who violate the civil rights of women, gay, and transgendered people.

tingdzin said:
Now we could turn to the Sierra Club. How a conservation-oriented organization could decide that open borders would be included on their agenda is beyond me, though I think that caused a split, and now they are calling themselves "Earthjustice" -- what a far left name!

Malcolm wrote:
Earthjustice (good name) is just the rebranded Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund, which was always a separate organization from the Sierra Club. They”ve been Earthjustice since 1997.


tingdzin said:
Or Amnesty International. They used to stand up for prisoners of conscience, against torture, and for basic humane treatment of people who had no voice. What could be more Buddhist? Now they have become largely a politics-at-the high-level organization, and somehow the governments they are concerned with overturning seem to be exclusively what people think of as right-wing. If you read the Wikipedia entry on them, the admit their focus  shifted starting in the 2000s.

Malcolm wrote:
The accusation Amnesty focuses solely on human rights abuses solely by right wing governments is patently false, unless for some strange reason you are classifying a China, Nicaragua, Cuba, Venezuela, etc., as “right wing.”

tingdzin said:
Then, Planned Parenthood. What the connection is between reproductive planning and Gay Rights is has never been clear to me. Again, gay rights, fine, but by assuming that everyone that supports the former is in favor of the later just has a polarizing effect on people who would be otherwise supportive.

Malcolm wrote:
Not a far left position.

tingdzin said:
As I said, I have closely followed all these organizations for years. Of all my former charities, only WWF seems to have stayed on mission.

Malcolm wrote:
None of the organizations you mentioned have have been taken over by radical leftists. It’s quite debatable whether they are still on mission or not. From my point of view, they all look ship shape.

Based on your many comments, I rate your political stance Center-right overall. But you tend to lean into authoritarian policies like borders, police. Etc.

And yes, I am totally left-wing, no surprise there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 9:02 AM
Title: Re: Madhyamakavata
Content:
tobes said:
From a Gelug pov, Huntington is best.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean better than Tsongkhapa's?

tobes said:
Tsong Khapa wrote in English??

Malcolm wrote:
It’s been translated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 8:59 AM
Title: Re: AOC My Sheroe
Content:
tingdzin said:
IMO, she should be a little less brazen, not because she is a woman or non-white, but because she is just a beginner.

Malcolm wrote:
Then we need more beginners just like her.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Madhyamakavata
Content:
zerwe said:
LTK's Illumination of the Thought (dgongs pa rab gsal) translated by J. Hopkins and others and George Churinoff's tanslation of the Bhashyam is helpful as well.
Shaun

cloudburst said:
Im not sure I'm familiar with the Hopkins translation, could you include a link? Thank you!

Malcolm wrote:
http://illuminationofthetruethought.com/downloads/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Madhyamakavata
Content:
tobes said:
From a Gelug pov, Huntington is best.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean better than Tsongkhapa's?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Mother sentient beings
Content:
Mirror said:
In many prayers there is used term: "mother sentient beings". Please can someone explain to me why mothers? Maybe it's my missunderstanding, but I don't see mother as someone special. It's more likely, that mother would be a nice person, but I witnessed mothers who were mentally and physically abusing their children or mothers who were drinking or taking drugs while being pregnant. Are those horrible mothers still considered as good mothers or great benefactors? Does bad mothers even exist (regarding dharma)? Thank you so much for clearing away my confusion.

Malcolm wrote:
All sentient beings were mother at one time or another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: Leaving Buddhism
Content:


monkishlife said:
Or, are you using Right Speech because you know it is morally right, which leads to greater happiness? I never feel good when I'm using nasty or hateful speech.


Malcolm wrote:
"Right" speech can be "wrong" speech, and "wrong" speech can be "right" speech, there is no certain test.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 24th, 2020 at 12:44 AM
Title: AOC My Sheroe
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 23rd, 2020 at 6:29 PM
Title: Re: Seeking a Classical Tibetan tutor
Content:
asdfjkl1979 said:
Hello All

Hoping I might get some luck here. I'm looking for some ongoing tutoring in classical Tibetan. So far I have completed one year of classes as SOAS in London as part of their Buddhist Studies masters programme. I was hoping to audit the second year unit but it isn't going ahead due to a lack of enrolments and the School's woeful financial situation. I have also spent a very brief time (only a week) at Shang Shung's Tibetan summer school at Merigar.

I am plodding along on my own and have worked through some of passages in a number of text books (e.g. Hodge's textbook and Hackett's reader). Sometimes I'm spot on, sometimes I'm way off and often I'm not entirely sure if I am anywhere near a correct translation or not! What I really need is some ongoing tutoring with someone who knows their stuff. My idea is a regular (weekly / fortnightly) Skype session where I can get feedback on a set translation I have attempted in the interim. I would love to make contact with someone suitable to discuss format and obviously than happy to discuss payment.

Doesn't need to be someone London or UK based (although this would be great!)

If anyone has any good leads regarding who I could approach I would be incredibly grateful - so please don't hesitate to DM me


Malcolm wrote:
Try Esukhia.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 23rd, 2020 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Surgery effect on channels
Content:
LhakpaT said:
Not sure where to post this... I was wondering what the effect of surgery is on the channels, according to Tibetan medicine? Sinus surgery, for example, is pretty commonplace nowadays - what happens to the channels when that part of the body is operated on, perhaps parts of bone and tissue removed, etc. Are they injured? Do they heal?


Malcolm wrote:
Nadis are physical, so yes they heal. Yes they can be injured. Yes it is better to avoid surgery, but this is not always possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 23rd, 2020 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
LhakpaT said:
A recommended read: The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise by Dario Fernandez-Morera.

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, to claim that I called Al Andalusia a "paradise" is an exaggeration. I said that is was comparatively gentle compared to the hell Christians wreaked on the world. I did not say that the Ummayid invaders and so on were all angles.

I am not aware that there was an Islamic Torquemada in Spain. Though it is true there was a riot in 1066, where a Muslim mob murdered many of the Jewish inhabitants in reaction to the Jewish Vizier's alleged dismissal of Islam, based on a poem written by one Abu Ishaq.

LhakpaT said:
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you said such. The talk about Al Andalus reminded me of this book, which I found very interesting. There is a lot of promotion of it (often with the best intentions) as some enlightened era of co-existence, when the reality is a lot more complicated than that.

Malcolm wrote:
Muslims subjected all non-Muslims to the dhimmi tax, brutal rulers still inflicted pain on slaves, and people under their control. Nevertheless, It still was the major center of learning in Europe for a couple of centuries. Without Al-Anadulsia, the world would have lost almost all knowledge of the ancient world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 23rd, 2020 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A “radical leftist” from the ACLU wrote:

tingdzin said:
Well, I agree with the ACLU on this one. But nowadays they are all over the place (at least, all over the left spectrum), and some of what they support has nothing to do with civil liberties.


Malcolm wrote:
You mean like the lawsuit described here?

tingdzin said:
https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/first-amendment-literally-banned-dc

Can the government ban the text of the First Amendment itself on municipal transit ads because free speech is too “political” for public display?

If this sounds like some ridiculous brain teaser, it should. But unfortunately it’s not. It’s a core claim in a lawsuit we filed today challenging the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority’s (WMATA) restrictions on controversial advertising.

The ACLU, ACLU of D.C., and ACLU of Virginia are teaming up to represent a diverse group of plaintiffs whose ads were all branded as too hot for transit: the ACLU itself; Carafem, a health care network that specializes in getting women access to birth control and medication abortion; People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA); and Milo Worldwide LLC — the corporate entity of provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos.

Malcolm wrote:
Strange bedfellows, no?

Why don't you present us with one of those bothersome, leftist extra-civil liberties lawsuits? Seriously.

Looking through the list of policies at the NRDC, I really don't see anything that is "radical" left. I many evidence-based policies concerning the environment and so on. The worst think you can say about the NRDC is that they have holdings in oil and gas in their endowment fund. But who doesn't. Anyone with a 401k that is making any money at all has holdings in oil and gas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 23rd, 2020 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
LhakpaT said:
A recommended read: The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise by Dario Fernandez-Morera.

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, to claim that I called Al Andalusia a "paradise" is an exaggeration. I said that is was comparatively gentle compared to the hell Christians wreaked on the world. I did not say that the Ummayid invaders and so on were all angles.

I am not aware that there was an Islamic Torquemada in Spain. Though it is true there was a riot in 1066, where a Muslim mob (* in Cordoba) murdered many of the Jewish inhabitants in reaction to the Jewish Vizier's alleged dismissal of Islam, based on a poem written by one Abu Ishaq.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 22nd, 2020 at 6:45 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A “radical leftist” from the ACLU wrote:

https://www.aclu.org/news/criminal-law-reform/a-constitutional-crisis-in-portland/

Unknown said:
While some federal officers had already been in the streets, we now have additional militarized special ops officers occupying the streets of downtown Portland, bent on inflicting pain and terror on people who believe Black Lives Matter.

Federal agents, including those from Trump’s Departments of Homeland Security and Justice, are terrorizing the community, threatening lives, and relentlessly attacking protesters demonstrating against police brutality.

Militarized federal agents have flouted court orders protecting the rights of protesters from local law enforcement attacks, used sharpshooters to maim people, and deployed military tools and tactics — including sonic weapons and tear gas. Black Lives Matter protesters in Portland have been shot in the head with kinetic impact munitions, swept away in unmarked cars, and repeatedly tear gassed by federal agents. These government-issued weapons are funded with our tax dollars...

That is why the ACLU of Oregon took our local police department to court, and secured a court order blocking its unconstitutional attacks on journalists and legal observers. And that’s why we’re taking the federal agents to court, too. We will not rest until law enforcement agencies — at all levels of government — are held accountable for their brutal, inhumane, and unconstitutional attacks on the people of Portland.

This is a fight to save our democracy — here in Portland and nationwide. And we’re just getting started. We will not let up until these federal agents leave our city, and these unconstitutional attacks on the right to protest against police brutality end.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 22nd, 2020 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
They were at it earlier than the Europeans, and if Spain is any example, they were more inclusive and a lot gentler, because they were not as racist as White Christians.


Danny said:
Reconquista was not a lot gentler.

Malcolm wrote:
I was not talking about Reconquista. I was talking about Al Andalus period, especially under the Caliphate of Córdoba. Most of our knowledge of the pre-Islamic era in Rome, Greece and so on was preserved during this period by Muslim scholars and was for 200 years the principle center of learning in the West.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 22nd, 2020 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Sure it is racist. But racism was more like a motive, not an opportunity. There is racism everywhere. The difference was these racists had better fighting power.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I said that racism was a motive.



Crazywisdom said:
The Chinese are racist in Africa as well. Everyone is racist once they have the power. It is more like big talk. There is a book of recent about the history of of East vs West and why China lost. I forget the name and author now. I will check. But the premise was despite the fact that the Europeans were basically much worse off than the Chinese, the Chinese failed to garner a sufficiently competitive attitude, because of its isolation and size.

Malcolm wrote:
More likely, it is because they were subjugated by the Mongols during the 13th century, and the Yuan Dynasty lasted from 1279-1368. At this time, Europe experienced the black death. Please remember that between 1345-1351, 40-50 percent of the population of Europe died.

Crazywisdom said:
Whereas all these European states you mention were at eacch others throats all the time. The competition for resources was very magnified.

Malcolm wrote:
This is true. The main competition was for wood. Europe, by the 15th century, had largely razed all its major forests in the recovery from the black death. Wood has the mainstay of European technology.



Crazywisdom said:
The basic point here is economics is the driving factor. And as long as that is the case this will continue and one guise or another.

Malcolm wrote:
According to some, the only factor. I personally don't believe it is that simple.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 22nd, 2020 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"Convention" means "appears to function."

clyde said:
“Convention” appears to function as a ‘rabbit-hole’ into which all dharmas, all phenomena, all arisings and ceasings, space and time fall, leaving . . . solely the Unconditioned?

Malcolm wrote:
Not even that. As Nāgārjuna pointed out:
Since arising, abiding, and cessation are not established, the compounded is not established.

Since the compounded has never been established, how could the uncompounded ever be established?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:



Modus.Ponens said:
Therefore I maintain this (apparently dissident...) view that singling out Europeans, or any ethnic group, as a villainous race is quite disgusting. It is textbook racism. And it will lead to nothing positive. It is sad that in 2020 we are having discussions that were ideologically solved in the 1960s: People should be judged by the content of their character, not the colour of their skin. Now we're going backwards. Which is why intersectionalism is also known as the regressive left.

Malcolm wrote:
Europeans are not a race, they are a heterogeneous cultural bloc, unified by a shared history of Roman, and then Christian, domination, under which their own indigenous cultures were wiped out. And the Romans were just as racist as they would later become.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Modus.Ponens said:
So I'm not a geographical determinist but, when you think about how many advantages Europe had, and think about how these can accumulate and reinforce each other over centuries, it's not surprising that those advantages overwhelmed the peoples of other continents.

Malcolm wrote:
What gave the Europeans an advantage was their racism and willingness to enslave, rob, rape, and murder the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Africa,  Asia, and India for profit.

You need to read a book called 1493: The Colombian Exchange.

Crazywisdom said:
Maybe. But the Bantu were the most enslaved tribe, and the primary suppliers of slaves were Africans. Iraqis were also a major market during the same time period and there was a notable slave uprising there. After giving this much thought, I have come to conclude racism is just an excuse and a red herring.

Malcolm wrote:
An excuse for what? Anyway, 1493 is about the profound technological, economic, and cultural changes that happened world wide as a result of trade from the "New world" with the old. It is a very interesting read, and not particularly ideological.

Crazywisdom said:
Race and religion are what get the guys excited.

Malcolm wrote:
Systematically oppressing people through negating and suppressing their language and culture in order to enforce cultural domination isn't racist?

Crazywisdom said:
What gave Europeans the advantage was a very competitive attitude and great competition among European principalities, along with advancements in weapons and boat building.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a factor, but it does not explain why the Spanish, English, French and so on were also completely racist.

Crazywisdom said:
Religion and race are given the blame, but it was actually just fierce opportunism. The muslim world would have done the same if they could.

Malcolm wrote:
They were at it earlier than the Europeans, and if Spain is any example, they were more inclusive and a lot gentler, because they were not as racist as White Christians.

Crazywisdom said:
One really must get out and hear different perspectives.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, I am all for it. I am also all for looking at what people actually did and what they said about their motivations for why they did what they did.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 7:12 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:



Charlie123 said:
Well, that is not totally my point.

That part of my post was inspired by a recent reading of Khenpo Ngakchung's Zindri. Basically, in the section on examining potential gurus, Khenpo Ngakchung is very clear that in order to teach Vajrayana in general and Dzogchen in particular it is not actually necessary to be an awakened person.

But, I do think I agree with your post.


Malcolm wrote:
You know Tibetan? If so excellent.

Charlie123 said:
No, I do not. Using Padmakara's translation.

Malcolm wrote:
Ah, you were referring to the Longchen Nyinthig Ngondro zintri.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 6:44 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
Charlie123 said:
Anyway, it does not matter. Qualified teachers are enough.

Grigoris said:
^^^This^^^

I think it is just laziness and ego that drives people to look for teachers that can blow rings of fire out their ass.

It is an excuse to overlook the local lama that has spent at least three years practicing yidam (and so much more) and is capable of helping you reach that point too.

I see the same thing in martial arts:  People flock for seminars with brand name teachers that will show them nothing usefu,l since the students are incapable of executing even the most basic techniques (and will never apply the advanced techniques anyway), but will ignore the local teacher that will make them slog through the basics that they actually need.

A university professor is useless as a teacher if you are still at kindergarten level.

Charlie123 said:
Well, that is not totally my point.

That part of my post was inspired by a recent reading of Khenpo Ngakchung's Zindri. Basically, in the section on examining potential gurus, Khenpo Ngakchung is very clear that in order to teach Vajrayana in general and Dzogchen in particular it is not actually necessary to be an awakened person.

But, I do think I agree with your post.

Malcolm wrote:
You know Tibetan? If so excellent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 9:41 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
Queequeg said:
It was a joke. Do turtles have fur? Do any Westerners have the juice to teach in a full way?

Malcolm wrote:
That’s excessively pessimistic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 9:40 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:



Modus.Ponens said:
Please find equivalent sources for "The Blank Slate" and "Enlightenment Now". I want to laugh some more at science denying ideologues.

EDIT: Links removed

Malcolm wrote:
It’s funny to see a “Buddhist” relying on a new atheist author, I am sure next you are going to tell us rebirth and karma are false.

Modus.Ponens said:
That doesn't even make sense Malcolm.

Malcolm wrote:
Give it some thought.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 9:18 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
tingdzin said:
I don't know what you mean by FUD, but I have been giving to these charities for decades and reading their material. Have you? Then don't speak.

Malcolm wrote:
I know quite well who these groups are, and the idea that they have been taken over by “radical leftists” is almost as silly as Qanon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 6:45 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Modus.Ponens said:
Better than nothing, but too little, too late. The border between the centre left and the far left has not been enforced. A lot of damage has already been done. Now it's only by purging centre left institutions from communists and progressive authoritarians that things will go back to normal. Until then, the left is screwed. Whatever good cause it tries to defend, it will be hijacked by the extremists.

tingdzin said:
This is absolutely the case. Even charities such as Planned Parenthood, the Natural Resources Defense Council ,and the ACLU, all of which might have at one time been regarded as center-left, are now in the hands of radical leftists.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh please. What a bunch of FUD.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 6:43 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Norwegian said:
Modus.Ponens: "The Better Angels of Our Nature", by Steven Pinker [...]"

... is yet another book that is hardly reputable as a source, and is viewed as quite poor by qualified people, such as historians etc.

(criticism of two of his books):


Modus.Ponens said:
Please find equivalent sources for "The Blank Slate" and "Enlightenment Now". I want to laugh some more at science denying ideologues.

EDIT: Links removed

Malcolm wrote:
It’s funny to see a “Buddhist” relying on a new atheist author, I am sure next you are going to tell us rebirth and karma are false.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Modus.Ponens said:
They just had a lot more resources and advantages. Slavery has not been an exception in human history. It has been the norm. It is the absence of slavery that is the exception. I think singling out Europeans as a villainous race is quite disgusting. Especially coming from a Buddhist.

Malcolm wrote:
Villains behave villainously, for example, King Ashoka. He had 18k Jains slaughtered for a cartoon of the Buddha prostrating to Mahāvira.

However, the Europeans who pillaged and raped the world were also racist Christian religious fanatics, who inflicted far more harm on the world than any other kind of conquerer could even dream of.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 21st, 2020 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Since Nāgārjuna effectively refutes time as a being anything more than a convention, and effectively refutes cause and condition as being anything more than a convention, I fail to see how your phenomena existing independently of one's projections is also anything more than a convention, which cannot be established in any way at all.

clyde said:
Malcolm; When you use the word “convention” what do you mean? It seems to be a term used to dismiss, so I’m asking for clarification/explanation.

Malcolm wrote:
A convention is something, which, left unanalyzed, seems to stand on its own. For example, "I am going to town." But when analyzed, the convention "going" is held to be untenable, since apart from something which has gone and something which has not gone, there is no present going. I refer you to Nāgārjuna's analysis of movement, from which this example is drawn.

Examples of thing which are not even conventionally possible are hair on a tortoise, horns on a rabbit, and the children of barren women.

"Convention" means "appears to function."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Modus.Ponens said:
So I'm not a geographical determinist but, when you think about how many advantages Europe had, and think about how these can accumulate and reinforce each other over centuries, it's not surprising that those advantages overwhelmed the peoples of other continents.

Malcolm wrote:
What gave the Europeans an advantage was their racism and willingness to enslave, rob, rape, and murder the indigenous peoples of the Americas, Africa,  Asia, and India for profit.

You need to read a book called 1493: The Colombian Exchange.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Modus.Ponens said:
They [The Chinese] didn't gain that advantage by an accident of their culture which, at the time, did not value exploration of the seas.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, this is false. In the 13th century, the Chinese Navy was the largest in the world. It dominated the Pacific, the Indian Ocean, etc.

The quirk you refer to was not a result of Chinese culture. What happened was is that when Kublai Khan attempted to invade Japan, a typhoon interfered with the invasion. A Mongolian, he regarded this as a failure of maritime warfare, and scrapped the navy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
You just said that phenomena were separate from our projections. Which is it?

PadmaVonSamba said:
Some phenomena does and some doesn’t.
Obviously, there is much phenomena occurring of which one has  no awareness...

Malcolm wrote:
So that means there are phenomena existing independently of us.

PadmaVonSamba said:
In a sense, one can say that phenomena fall into two categories: phenomena which is separate from our projections and phenomena which isn’t separate from our projections, but which arises with our projections as a component.

Malcolm wrote:
So that means there are phenomena existing independently of us.

Now, the basic proposition:

“As we realize with the utmost effort that all times (jinji) are all existence (jin’u), absolutely no additional dharma remains."

"All times" must refer to the past, present, and future.  All existence is included in these three times. As I pointed outed once one before I fail to see, facially, how this assertion is any better than the Hinayāna Sarvastivāda school's assertion that all phenomena exist in the three times.

Since Nāgārjuna effectively refutes time as a being anything more than a convention, and effectively refutes cause and condition as being anything more than a convention, I fail to see how your phenomena existing independently of one's projections is also anything more than a convention, which cannot be established in any way at all. Further, with respect to Dogen's assertion, if being = time, and time = being, the failure to establish one is the also the failure to establish the other since they are held to be mutually dependent.

In other words, rather than there being an eternal now, as someone suggested in this thread, in fact, no dharma ever arose anywhere at any time. The meaning of dependent origination is just nonorigination. I am certain Dogen addresses this point somewhere in his writing, and realizes this point, because everyone one understands Dogen to be a sublimely realized master.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 7:40 PM
Title: Re: What are the (spiritual) physics behind dedicating merit?
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
I think it's pretty esoteric, but there is an idea of some substance being created when a person makes vows.

Look at this thread-
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=25372

Malcolm wrote:
No relationship to dedicating merit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
Nemo said:
I think with the economy tanking and Tibetan Buddhist centres having such elderly Sanghas many will go bankrupt in the next 10 years. Many are little more than private clubs for aging hippies now. Tibetan teachers who grew up in India are really not the same. Things will change rapidly now.

And most Buddhists in America are Asian immigrants. A shame Tibetans chose to settle in India. It didn't work out well. I wish they had chosen a Western country and then flooded it.

PeterC said:
Even if the Tibetan lamas had all stayed in Tibet, the monastic model would still have had to change, because the economics of the society that once supported it have changed out of all recognition.  Similarly the society that created and supported distributed Dharma centers has changed so radically that we need to rethink exactly what sort of a structure we need - and indeed, what are the outcomes we're even trying to achieve in terms of training lamas, organizing teachings, etc. A lot of sanghas still think raise money + build center = success.  However the opposite is probably true: these centers then become a financial burden on the organization and the lamas' teaching schedules get hijacked to do quasi-fundraising in the form of teaching tours, and other activities (e.g. funding translations) get starved of cash as a result.

Malcolm wrote:
Covid shows the Dharma center model is unsustainable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 7:23 PM
Title: Re: History of Buddhism in America
Content:
tobes said:
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/49314/how-the-swans-came-to-the-lake-by-rick-fields/

I thought it was pretty good. It's history though, not everyone will be pleased....

Malcolm wrote:
It is also quite outdated and the author is deceased.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 7:11 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:



PadmaVonSamba said:
“Exist”? No.... “occur”? Yes.
If changing phenomena didn’t occur beyond our perceptions and projections, Shakyamuni Buddha wouldn’t have needed to explain that all phenomena are arising and falling away (impermanent).

Malcolm wrote:
Do you mean there are some phenomena  which occur from their own side then? An actual basis of imputation?

PadmaVonSamba said:
That would be to exist, rather than to occur.
Phenomena occur as the result of the interaction if components, including our own imputations and mental projections. For example, objects in dreams occur.
This conversation is occurring.

Malcolm wrote:
You just said that phenomena were separate from our projections. Which is it?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 9:54 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
Constantly changing, etc. is the true condition of what we falsely perceive as inherently existing entity.

Yes, of course the action of conceptualizing phenomena as one thing or another is a projection of mind, regardless of what it is. But the truth of constantly changing (etc.) is there regardless of whether it is known (conceptualized) or not.
The Buddha made this truth known (conceptualized), whereas before it had not been known.

Malcolm wrote:
So changing phenomena exist, independent of our projections?

PadmaVonSamba said:
“Exist”? No.... “occur”? Yes.
If changing phenomena didn’t occur beyond our perceptions and projections, Shakyamuni Buddha wouldn’t have needed to explain that all phenomena are arising and falling away (impermanent).

Malcolm wrote:
Do you mean there are some phenomena  which occur from their own side then? An actual basis of imputation?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 8:59 AM
Title: Re: W.H.O. Walks Back Claim That Asymptomatic Transmission is Rare
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Eh I dunno if it’s quite that simple.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, it’s that simple. Such people are dangerous fools.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 8:18 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So do phenomena exist or not? If so, how? How is "dependently arising, composite, constantly changing" any less a projection than a tree as an entity?

PadmaVonSamba said:
Constantly changing, etc. is the true condition of what we falsely perceive as inherently existing entity.

Yes, of course the action of conceptualizing phenomena as one thing or another is a projection of mind, regardless of what it is. But the truth of constantly changing (etc.) is there regardless of whether it is known (conceptualized) or not.
The Buddha made this truth known (conceptualized), whereas before it had not been known.

Malcolm wrote:
So changing phenomena exist, independent of our projections?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Modus.Ponens said:
Particularly disturbing is how they view society as racial struggle, thus perpetuating and aggravating racial tensions, instead of ending or minimising them.

Malcolm wrote:
It is obvious to anyone who has eyes to see, that in the post-colonial world, race is class.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:


Thundering Cloud said:
Thought-provoking stuff… thanks again for sharing.

Malcolm wrote:
The classical Buddhist assertion about time is a) time is measured by the duration of mental event, b) time depends on the perception of objects.

When there is no perception of objects, time, subjectively, vanishes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:



PadmaVonSamba said:
Establishing that there is an absolute fixed point at which something exists as a seed, and something else exists as a sapling, and something else exists as a tree, as absolute entities, yes, that is purely a projection of mind.

Is there a continuously changing courses of events in biology on which we ( due to the human inability to observe such slow change occurring in real time) impute fixed notions of “ seed”, “sapling”  and “tree” the Yes. Of course.

Malcolm wrote:
So you mean labels are projections but processes are real?

PadmaVonSamba said:
“real” usually means, “just as valid as the experience I have of myself and my perceptions”.

Labels and projections and processes, all are dependently arising, composite, constantly changing phenomena, but are experienced as inherently existing entities to which we impute the quality of “real” or “reality”.
It is certainly valid to do so, in terms of Samsaric existence. Otherwise we would not know if the bridge over a river was “real” of not.
Ultimately, however, “real” and “not real” doesn’t mean anything. In our “reality” the universe is real. The material world is real. Ultimately, it is neither real nor unreal. Those are simply relative concepts, a comparative duality.

Malcolm wrote:
So do phenomena exist or not? If so, how? How is "dependently arising, composite, constantly changing" any less a projection than a tree as an entity?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Having some doubts recently...
Content:
Michael126unknown said:
I wanna give an update here. I think my main error was not doing much reflection to get some certainty before I began a session of practice and maybe this is where any sort of subtle misunderstandings or confusion before might’ve come in, not sure but it helped me; Now that I’m doing that more, these emotions are totally gone. Another thing I might have made a mistake on, I also compared these experiences to prior practice sessions for some reason, but that wasn’t necessary obviously. (Btw - My teacher hasn’t responded yet)

Thank you, guys!

Malcolm wrote:
As above, wrong place to ask questions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Beckwith on Pyrrho and Buddhism
Content:
Grigoris said:
Have you read Pyrrho's philosophy?  There is nothing original surviving, just recorded texts in writings by Sextus Empiricus.

There is a definite Indian influence but it is difficult to tell if it is Buddhist, or from some other "Hindu" sect.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddhist connection makes the most sense, given which religion was ascending in dominance at the time in India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Danny said:
I can’t take you seriously trying to sell socialism

Malcolm wrote:
Practically speaking, I am Keynesian. In terms of my actual political orientation, deep ecologist. Socialism is just a bogeyman word now, used to frighten the childish.

Anyway, it is pretty clear that unregulated capitalism is destroying the world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: W.H.O. Walks Back Claim That Asymptomatic Transmission is Rare
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Then you’re going to have many people who are going to refuse it.

Even many leftists and other otherwise pro-vaxxers, when you read comment sections on various related videos, do not trust bill gates on this nor any covid vaccine regardless of what company it’ll be produced by.

Malcolm wrote:
That's because they are idiots.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 20th, 2020 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Danny said:
You lost my hobgoblin mind as to what quoting a transcendentalist has to do with a pandemic?

Malcolm wrote:
You gotta catch up, pokey. I was referring to your political admiration for two socialists despite your apparent dislike of socialism. In other words, I do not expect you to be consistent.

Danny said:
Correct, that’s breaking out of creating a rarefied atmosphere where being closed off to exchange of ideas only makes for stagnation of thought.
It’s my right to change my mind.
I can admire whomever I like, without falling for the same old failed man centric notions and patterns that have wrecked much havoc upon humanity. It’s called evolution of thought.
And is not contradictory. That’s a type of consistency right?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, some might call it convenience, rather than "evolution." From my point of view, your "evolution" looks rather like devolution, from a stance where regulation of markets is understood to be judicious and beneficial, to the ridiculous trend against regulation (complete with the "Venezuela" bogeyman) being sold like crack in right wing newspapers these days to fools everywhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Danny said:
You lost my hobgoblin mind as to what quoting a transcendentalist has to do with a pandemic?

Malcolm wrote:
You gotta catch up, pokey. I was referring to your political admiration for two socialists despite your apparent dislike of socialism. In other words, I do not expect you to be consistent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:



Danny said:
Yep

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you know what Emerson said about consistency.

Danny said:
To be great is to be misunderstood?
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
You happened into a conversation Astus and I have been having for more than 10:years. It is completely friendly, and we are used to each other. You, on the other hand, arrived only a few weeks ago. So you are like a guy who walks into a cool bar you just discovered, and sees a couple of old geezers bickering about football teams, and not realizing that they are old buddies, begins to stand up for one against the other.

White Sakura said:
not exactly. I am not so stupid to think Astus needs me to stand up for him.

I am just trying to find out what little parts of this conversation me stupid guy can read several times to learn a little bit. Because from reading one times I cannot really get it, due to vocab problems.
I think he got a little bit that he is not only in a ten years of conversation with you, but tried to help me a bit. So, if I opened the thread, please be so kind to give me a little citation to think about, if you think his citations are lopsided.

Malcolm wrote:
Reread the thread.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:



Danny said:
No, my political thinking are in line with a Chris Hitchens or a Tony Benn, but always happy for others to project whatever they feel comfortable with. I don’t care

Malcolm wrote:
But both these guys are commies, whom you despise.

Danny said:
Yep

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you know what Emerson said about consistency.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:



Danny said:
I would rather go with misinformed...



Malcolm wrote:
Oh, so that’s why you voted for Trump. That’s worked out really well.

Danny said:
No, my political thinking are in line with a Chris Hitchens or a Tony Benn, but always happy for others to project whatever they feel comfortable with. I don’t care

Malcolm wrote:
But both these guys are commies, whom you despise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 7:49 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
White Sakura said:
Two accumulations, I understand that as practicing emptiness and compassion. It is important not to think: "Everything is empty, everything is illusion so there is no karma and I do not need to pay attention to good actions, ethical conduct."

PeterC said:
it refers to merit and wisdom
Second: If somebody  practices "only" sutra mahamudra, what exactly is the minimum of other practises to practice from the Varjayana teachings? I cannot imagine it can be practised without at least a short formal guru yoga.
The two accumulations in the kagyu mahamudra curriculum are gathered in the uncommon preliminaries, which themselves are vajrayana - they are all guru yoga of different forms. This is what Thrangu R, in the passage Astus quotes, says that practitioners of "sutra" mahamudra need to be doing. All roads lead to Rome.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. Among the uncommon or "unshared" preliminaries, the source of mandala offerings and guru yoga is the Guhyasamāja Tantra. These practices do not exist in lower tantras, much less sūtra. Vajrasattva comes from yoga tantra, but also does not exist in the two lower tantras, much less sūtra. Refuge and bodhicitta are the "shared" preliminaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 7:42 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:



PeterC said:
I'll go with "misinformed"

Danny said:
I would rather go with misinformed...

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, so that’s why you voted for Trump. That’s worked out really well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 7:40 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
tobes said:
Such an argument - that all of this implies the futility of vajrayana - is not being advanced in anyway -by either myself, nor any Kagyu (or Gelug) defenders of so called sutra mahamudra, nor does the implication you assert follow.

PeterC said:
As the major protagonist of this thread, I think Astus would advance that argument.  But surely the implication does follow, unless one believes that “sutra mahamudra” is an exceedingly slow path

tobes said:
Well, let him advance it if he wishes, and then respond to that.

The Kagyu point is really about context/upaya: different techniques are needed for different dispositions. The slowness or haste of a particular path depends very greatly on the amount or lack of merit a given practitioner has.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this point has been addressed here, more than once, in this thread.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 7:26 PM
Title: Re: Beckwith on Pyrrho and Buddhism
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
So, what is everyone’s opinions on this book ?

You can see a lot of it on google books - https://books.google.com/books?id=RlCUB... &q&f=false

I'm interested to hear what others think

Malcolm wrote:
He basically argue that Pyrrho learned Buddhism, and taught it to the Greeks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 7:18 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
Peter and 48vows were arguing about whether the US government or the Chinese government was confiscating personal property, specifically, PPE, in international transit.
It’s no argument that the Chinese government really did!
My posts about it could be moved to the personal experience thread !

Malcolm wrote:
It is also no argument that Jared Kushner did the same thing, and profited from it by selling same supplies back to China.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 6:48 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
White Sakura said:
"You are cherry-picking"- yea, and who is NOT cherry-picking citations in a debate?? Everybody chooses citations and parts of books that confirm his own opinion.
The coolest was: On one hand you are cherry-picking. On the other hand you are "dancing on books"- which sounds like you didn´t really read them. How can you find your "cherries" if you do not read the books??

Malcolm wrote:
He was. He is presently unable to view the entire contexts of the quotes he is using. It is quite common among Tibetan and other Buddhist scholars to simply repeat citations one has heard from others and stash them in one’s notes, to be used later when oneself is composing a text, without checking the original source.


White Sakura said:
So the only argument that was left was: "Piss off here, you do not belong to the lineage." Dancing on books could have meant then: Only reading, not hearing and meeting a master.

Malcolm wrote:
You happened into a conversation Astus and I have been having for more than 10:years. It is completely friendly, and we are used to each other. You, on the other hand, arrived only a few weeks ago. So you are like a guy who walks into a cool bar you just discovered, and sees a couple of old geezers bickering about football teams, and not realizing that they are old buddies, begins to stand up for one against the other.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 10:03 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:



haha said:
Well, there is the fact that no sutra mentions this word, “mahamudra.” The position Astus produced  is based on cherry picked citations that do not take into consideration the whole text being cited.
17. 86
“ ‘It is the seal of the nature of all phenomena.
It is the transmission of a quintillion sūtras.
It is the unsurpassable wealth of the bodhisattvas.
Does the Jina teach this samādhi? {57}

या सर्वधर्माण स्वभाव मुद्रा
यः सूत्रकोटीनियुतान आगमः।
यो बोधिसत्त्वान धनं निरूत्तरं
कच्चिज्जिनो भाषति तं समाधिम्॥ ५७॥

17. 144
“ ‘It is the practice of the teaching of the lion’s roar.
It originates from the supreme wisdom of buddhahood.
It is the seal of the nature of all phenomena.
This is the samadhi taught by the guides. {114}


प्रतिपत्तियं देशित सिंहनादिना-
मितु बुद्धज्ञानस्य वरस्य आगमः।
सर्वेष धर्माण स्वभाव मुद्राः
समाध्ययं देशितु नायकेहि॥ ११४॥
॥ बहुबुद्धनिर्हारसमाधिमुखपरिवर्तः॥
The Entranceway to the Samadhi That Is Taught by Many Buddhas

From Samādhi rāja sutra
https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-055-001.html
http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/book/443
Assumption is that this mudra has some distance relation with mahamudra. I don’t know how many centuries it took to became Mahamudra. So, even the profound mahayana sutras are talking about the word (at least) mudra. Some teachers have loosely spoken it as mahamudra, instead of mudra.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, the sutra does not use the term “mahamudra.” Have you any idea how common this word, “Mudra” is in relation to names of samadhis in the sutras? It would take a great deal of time to list them all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


tobes said:
And in terms of influence in the dissemination of mahamudra in Tibet, has there been any more important master of mahamudra than Gampopa himself? So, I'm sorry to say that we have to deal with him in this thread - can't just skip over as if he never existed!

Back to the Jackson book - there have been plenty of defenders of Gampopa against the Sapan critique, including most Gelugs.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is an error. As I pointed out, Ganden Mahāmudra is quite late, formulated in the mid 17th century by the First Panchen Lama. I already pointed out that it was subject to derision by no less a personage than the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, his younger contemporary.

The first articulated defenses from the Kagyus of various stripes against Sapan's critiques waited for an entire two centuries.

Some would argue that Sapan was the most important master of mahāmudra in Tibet. He was after all an eighth stage bodhisattva. Just saying. It all depends on one's perspective and what one chooses to accept and reject. After all, oneself is the ultimate authority in all matters of religion, and no one else.

tobes said:
With respect, your view on this is very, very settled in favour of Sapan. I am not saying that this is unfounded, only that there are other sound positions and because you do not grant this there is little point engaging in a debate.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there is the fact that no sutra mentions this word, “mahamudra.” The position Astus produced  is based on cherry picked citations that do not take into consideration the whole text being cited.

I even pointed out that Sakyapas do exactly the same thing Kagyus do, that is, teach shamatha and vipashyana bolstered with mahamudra citations from Saraha, Virupa, and so on, the primary difference being that Sakyapas are a) unwilling to term this sutra mahamudra and b) unwilling to admit there are other forms of entry into Vajrayana than a major empowerment. As for b) I don’t hold the Sakya position. I never have, even though I have argued from that position as a formality. You should not assume I believe every position I defend. I’ve even defended Tsongkhapa’s presentation of the two truths for fun. It is called sharpening prajna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 8:14 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


tobes said:
So again, one could critique this in many ways, but it is a huge misrepresentation of the terrain to hold that anyone who argues against "mahamudra implies tantric empowerment" is an anomaly.  It is simply isn't.

Malcolm wrote:
There is certainly no Indian precedent for the idea that there can be mahāmudra in absence of some kind of empowerment. None whatsoever. This is just a fact. There is nothing to argue about here.

But again, "authority" is up to you, not some book that says this or that. If people want to believe the realization of mahāmudra does not depend on a guru and empowerment, they are perfectly free to hold that belief. But it certainly isn't born out by an examination of his collected works that Gampopa actually believed this himself. In fact, in Gampopa's works one even finds criticisms of mahāmudra and dzogchen in favor of tattva, reality/truth. I am afraid that until his whole collected works are translated, it will be difficult for people to really understand completely what his point of view was.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 8:13 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


tobes said:
And in terms of influence in the dissemination of mahamudra in Tibet, has there been any more important master of mahamudra than Gampopa himself? So, I'm sorry to say that we have to deal with him in this thread - can't just skip over as if he never existed!

Back to the Jackson book - there have been plenty of defenders of Gampopa against the Sapan critique, including most Gelugs.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is an error. As I pointed out, Ganden Mahāmudra is quite late, formulated in the mid 17th century by the First Panchen Lama. I already pointed out that it was subject to derision by no less a personage than the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, his younger contemporary.

The first articulated defenses from the Kagyus of various stripes against Sapan's critiques waited for an entire two centuries.

Some would argue that Sapan was the most important master of mahāmudra in Tibet. He was after all an eighth stage bodhisattva. Just saying. It all depends on one's perspective and what one chooses to accept and reject. After all, oneself is the ultimate authority in all matters of religion, and no one else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 8:07 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
The principle of cause and effect only occurs to conditioned existence (samsara), which is the illusory projection of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
So you mean seeds and sprouts only happen in the mind?

PadmaVonSamba said:
Establishing that there is an absolute fixed point at which something exists as a seed, and something else exists as a sapling, and something else exists as a tree, as absolute entities, yes, that is purely a projection of mind.

Is there a continuously changing courses of events in biology on which we ( due to the human inability to observe such slow change occurring in real time) impute fixed notions of “ seed”, “sapling”  and “tree” the Yes. Of course.

Malcolm wrote:
So you mean labels are projections but processes are real?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 6:57 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Ceisiwr said:
Essentially Gramsci and Eurocommunism is what is meant.

Malcolm wrote:
Which means there is no such thing as cultural marxism, if there ever was one, since the eurocommunists abandoned communism after the fall of the USSR.

Ceisiwr said:
They certainly didn't abandon conflict theory.

Malcolm wrote:
“They” do not exist, like cultural Marxism. The only difference between them is that the latter never existed, like the child of a barren women.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)
Content:
Queequeg said:
From the Pruden translation -

Commentary to 7a-b. Even though the expression samskrta signifies "that which has been created...," it also applies to future dharma and to present dharmas; in fact, a dharma does not change its nature by changing its time period. In the same way, one calls milk in the udder dugdha, "that which has been drawn", and kndling indhana, or "wood to be burned."
Am I reading this correctly to conclude they believe dharmas persist in the three times?

Malcolm wrote:
You're getting a bit ahead of yourself, but yes, according to the Vaibhāṣikas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
There is no fixed point at which any identity can be established.

Malcolm wrote:
So wheat seeds can produce corn? After all, you said it is all merely a projection of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
The principle of cause and effect only occurs to conditioned existence (samsara), which is the illusory projection of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
So you mean seeds and sprouts only happen in the mind?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:


jimmi said:
Still a long train of inseparable causes and effects before there is any likelihood of a tree. In my imagination I see no gap in the process, if that is indeed what it is, of cause and effect. What has become a seed arising from an infinity of intimate causes and conditions similarly unfolds in its being in the immediate, intimate and necessary causes and conditions that are appropriate to the seed becoming other than a seed ... could be a tree, or food for a mouse, or part of a loaf of bread. There is nothing discrete at any point. Where time comes into it, I’m not sure.

Malcolm wrote:
So is a seed and its sprout the same substance then, merely a transformation of the same entity? Or are seeds and sprouts different entities?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Ceisiwr said:
Essentially Gramsci and Eurocommunism is what is meant.

Malcolm wrote:
Which means there is no such thing as cultural marxism, if there ever was one, since the eurocommunists abandoned communism after the fall of the USSR.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Astus said:
The Kagyupa teachers I had met and received teachings from were from the Taklung (Phakchok Rinpoche), the Drikung (Chetsang Rinpoche, Garchen Rinpoche, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, Drupon Konchok Jigmet), and from the Drukpa (a disciple of Adeu Rinpoche) lineages. But all this, in my opinion, is totally irrelevant for the topic.

Malcolm wrote:
It is completely relevant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Astute freely admitted above he has not received any Vajrayana teaching, nor direct introduction.

Astus said:
I https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=34185&p=543801#p543801 that I mainly studied and heard sutra-style Mahamudra teachings, as that is what I like the most in Vajrayana. But since I was fortunate enough to receive the Fivefold Mahamudra teaching, I cannot say other parts are totally unknown to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Did you practice this?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 19th, 2020 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
'Rest in a state of clarity and naturalness. Rest relaxed, without tightness. Do not examine or analyze good and bad. Do not have doubts about what is or isn't. When thoughts appear, do not follow after their numerous appearances. Rest completely, like a sheaf of hay that has had its string cut. Rest. relaxed, in natural consciousness. Past thoughts have ceased, the future ones have not arisen. In this relaxed in-between state of the present, it's taught:
That mind is no mind ; the mind's nature is luminosity.
Just this mind alone, which is completely empty, clear, aware, and lucid, is what is called the perfection of wisdom, luminosity, mahamudra, dzokchen, and dharmakaya.'
(Thr Unrivaled Instructions of Shang Rinpoche, in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 77)
The introduction is not in the verbal instruction.

White Sakura said:
So difficult. If not examining good or bad then why to deem it "good" to have transmissions by a Guru and deem it "bad" not to have empowerments?

Malcolm wrote:
When introducing one person to another, there is first an experience—first you see their face. But just seeing their face does not tell you their name. So then the person making the introduction says, "This is Mr. or Mrs. X." Direct introduction is the same. First you have an experience. Then you are told what that experience means.

Trying to introduce the nature of the mind without first having an experience of the nature of the mind is like trying to introduce someone to someone when that person is not present: you can say, "Mr. X" is tall/short, has big/short nose, is fat/thin, Arabic/Asian/Jewish/Black/White, etc., but if you don't see this person first, no matter what description you are given, you will not recognize this person.

White Sakura said:
Same thing with this "radical Dzogchen" practioners in Germany. Who "need no master". They argue with that.

Malcolm wrote:
There are fools everywhere. What to say?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Something else to consider is that Buddhism in the west has inflated statistics on terms of how many white people are actually seriously participating. For instance, there is a movement of what is called "Tantra" amongst a fair amount of "spiritual" gay men in the village party scene of Montreal. This "Tantra" movement is actually just a group of men who have group sex with each other. There is no actually Tantra practiced in it, but participants will say they practice Tantric Buddhism. It's tantric "Buddhism," not Hinduism, specifically because the leader of the group has pretensions to being a Buddhist.

So there's at least ~500 false positives in Montreal. The amount only goes up when we take closer looks in other places.

Malcolm wrote:
Not talking about this. Talking about refuge-holding, card-carrying Buddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But in terms of people who are interested in actually practicing Buddhism, apart from SGI and other Nicherin groups, and not merely receiving pastoral services, this is a predominately a white, upper-middle class aging hippy phenomena.

Caoimhghín said:
I think you've made an inadvertent racial statement that you didn't intend to make.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I did not make either.


Caoimhghín said:
In contrast, the Sri Lankan immigrant community who funds the Scarborough Mahavihara takes their Buddhism very seriously.


Malcolm wrote:
And of the many immigrant Buddhist temples of I have been to over the years in the east, south, and west, they mainly let monks do all the practice. As I said, in America, Immigrant Buddhism is mainly a pastoral affair. They are certainly serious about supporting the monastic sangha, but primarily for pastoral services.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
I think that it is probably not true that “It’s obvious on even cursory observation that the majority of North American and European Buddhists are white and middle-/upper-class.”

There is just no way that the majority of buddhists in America are white. No way.

Are there any groups in Laredo or El Paso ? They aren’t going to be white Buddhist people there either.

Im not sure definition of middle class, but I am skeptical of that part too.

Malcolm wrote:
You didn't distinguish what kinds of Buddhist you meant. Of course, there are more Asian Buddhist in the Americas. But this is generally "pastoral Buddhism," where wats and and so on are built by immigrant communities to provide pastoral services and traditional rites for lay people by a monastic community. Then of course there is SGI, which is very diverse, and probably has the largest number of black people, Pure Land Buddhism, (though Pure Land generally falls into the pastoral Buddhist category). But in terms of people who are interested in actually practicing Buddhism, apart from SGI and other Nicherin groups, and not merely receiving pastoral services, this is a predominately a white, upper-middle class aging hippy phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 6:35 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
PeterC said:
It’s obvious on even cursory observation that the majority of North American and European Buddhists are white and middle-/upper-class.

Fortyeightvows said:
How about in Latin America ?
or different parts of Europe ? still only middle/upper class?

Malcolm wrote:
Same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 6:32 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
White Sakura said:
But just saying, I have the right to abide by the opinions of Ringu Tulku Rinpoche and not of Kongtrul Rinpoche.

PeterC said:
That’s not something Ringu Tulku would ever say

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 5:55 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I understand the point you are trying to make, which is the same point you have been trying to make for years: one can learn Dharma from books without a master.

Astus said:
It isn't, as https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=543943#p543943, and https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=543371#p543371. It is something others keep bringing up.

White Sakura said:
Astus, they think you have no contact to a master, because you do not come up with names. The poor people are totally nervous because of that, and can´t sleep anymore, until you give them names.

Malcolm wrote:
Astute freely admitted above he has not received any Vajrayana teaching, nor direct introduction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 5:53 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Well, you need to read what Kongtrul says on the issue. As I pointed out, I have received Mahamudra teachings in the Karma Kagyu tradition.

White Sakura said:
Great to hear about your Kagyu teachings. Which Kagyu Lineage and which masters please?
But just saying, I have the right to abide by the opinions of Ringu Tulku Rinpoche and not of Kongtrul Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
That that mentioned above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 10:33 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:



jimmi said:
As cause and effect are occurring in time and “now”, the present, is the only existent aspect of time, what is the boundary or horizon where cause becomes effect? Not a hair’s breadth of separation, right? What is occurring now that cause becomes effect?

Malcolm wrote:
So according to you, a tree, the result, and it’s seed, it’s cause, are simultaneously existent? Is that what you are claiming? If so, this is completely incoherent.

jimmi said:
The tree is not the result of the seed, so no they cannot be simultaneously existent. If I am claiming anything it would be that cause and effect are continuously inseparable, that the causes of the seed’s becoming and those of the tree’s becoming cannot be isolated and that a seed becomes a tree only in imagination.

Given the inseparability of cause and effect (do you deny this?) what is occurring now that cause becomes effect?

Malcolm wrote:
So a tree is not a result of a seed? A cause is certainly a result of an antecedent cause, because that is how we conventionally understand causes and effects. Not sure what you mean by “inseparable.” If you mean that a cause is not a cause until it produces an effect, that is one thing. But if you mean something else, you will have to explain it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 9:33 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
When we use the term, “exist”

...

There’s the occurring of past and future as actual experience, but it’s all going on within a vast, infinite “now’.

Malcolm wrote:
You still didn't deal with the issue.

For example, a cause which has yet to produce an effect is just a noncause. Since causes and their effects cannot exist at the same time, all so-called "causes" therefore are non-causes, because a cause can only be labeled a "cause" if it has produced an effect.

tkp67 said:
I can think of many examples that seem to betray the notion in bold. Perhaps it is because I don't understand the context. Are you saying this applies to all phenomenon or something more specific? Thank you in advance.

Malcolm wrote:
It applies to all compounded phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 9:31 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
When we use the term, “exist”

...

There’s the occurring of past and future as actual experience, but it’s all going on within a vast, infinite “now’.

Malcolm wrote:
You still didn't deal with the issue.

For example, a cause which has yet to produce an effect is just a noncause. Since causes and their effects cannot exist at the same time, all so-called "causes" therefore are non-causes, because a cause can only be labeled a "cause" if it has produced an effect.

jimmi said:
As cause and effect are occurring in time and “now”, the present, is the only existent aspect of time, what is the boundary or horizon where cause becomes effect? Not a hair’s breadth of separation, right? What is occurring now that cause becomes effect?

Malcolm wrote:
So according to you, a tree, the result, and it’s seed, it’s cause, are simultaneously existent? Is that what you are claiming? If so, this is completely incoherent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Astus said:
Right, but the question is if the analysis/instruction used to get to the introduction/insight can also match between Sutrayana and Vajrayana, not just the wisdom/gnosis arrived at? For that I gave the example of looking at the mind/thoughts in terms of the three times, as that is a frame of reference used in both systems.

Malcolm wrote:
I understand the point you are trying to make, which is the same point you have been trying to make for years: one can learn Dharma from books without a master.

The difference here between sūtra and tantra is again, in the former case it is purely an intellectual analysis, in the later case, based on empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by "the mind is not established in the three times?"

Astus said:
'In this way, when the identity of the mind is specifically examined by wisdom,in the ultimate sense it is perceived neither within nor without. It is also not perceived in the absence of both. Neither the mind of the past, nor that of the future, nor that of the present, is perceived. When ·the mind is born, it comes from nowhere, and when it ceases it goes nowhere because it is inapprehensible, undemonstrable, and non-physical. If you ask, "What is the entity of that which is inapprehensible, undemonstrable; and non-physical?" the Heap of jewels states: "O Kashyapa, when the mind is thoroughly sought, it cannot be found. What is not found Cannot be perceived. And what is not perceived is neither past nor future nor present." Through such analysis, the beginning of the mind is ultimately not seen, the end of the mind is ultimately not seen, and the middle of the mind is ultimately not seen.'
(Stages of Meditation, p 131-132)

'If you wish to recognize clearly the non-dwelling mind, then during your meditation just be aware that your mind does not think about any object or hold on to any dualities, such as good and evil, etc. Since past things are already past, you should not think about them anymore; and, thus, any thought about the past vanishes. This is known as being without the past. Furthermore, since future things have not yet arrived, you should neither seek nor wish for them; and, thus, any thought of the future vanishes. This is known as being without the future. Finally, since present things are already present, you should not grasp them nor allow a thought of love or hate to arise; and, thus, any thought about the present vanishes. This is known as being without the present. In summary, if no thought about these three time periods arises, then the three time periods do not exist. If a thought of moving arises, do not follow it; and the thought of moving will vanish. If a thought of dwelling arises, do not follow it; and the thought of dwelling will vanish.'
( https://ymba.org/books/entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment/treatise-entering-tao-sudden-enlightenment )

Malcolm wrote:
The introduction is not in the analysis.

Astus said:
'Rest in a state of clarity and naturalness. Rest relaxed, without tightness. Do not examine or analyze good and bad. Do not have doubts about what is or isn't. When thoughts appear, do not follow after their numerous appearances. Rest completely, like a sheaf of hay that has had its string cut. Rest. relaxed, in natural consciousness. Past thoughts have ceased, the future ones have not arisen. In this relaxed in-between state of the present, it's taught:
That mind is no mind ; the mind's nature is luminosity.
Just this mind alone, which is completely empty, clear, aware, and lucid, is what is called the perfection of wisdom, luminosity, mahamudra, dzokchen, and dharmakaya.'
(Thr Unrivaled Instructions of Shang Rinpoche, in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 77)

Malcolm wrote:
The introduction is not in the verbal instruction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This still does not deal with the issue. Changing the name "cause" to "effect" does not address the fundamental problem of causality in time. Imagining an "eternal" now also does not address the issue. Negating the existence of the past does not work. Collapsing time into the present does not work. Imaging that the present is durationless does not work. None of these linguistic games address the real issue.

To really understand what Dogen meant, I would want to see some native Japanese commentary on the issue. Matylda, where are you when we need you?


clyde said:
You’re right, imagining doesn’t work, nor does “linguistic games” work, nor does appeal to authority (Dogen) work. How would you address “the fundamental problem of causality in time”?

Malcolm wrote:
Time is a mere convention and cannot be established as anything more than a convention. When it comes to causes and effects, the only rational solution, conventionally speaking is that causes and effects are neither the same nor different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
To really understand what Dogen meant, I would want to see some native Japanese commentary on the issue.

Astus said:
https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms14.pdf
If I were to describe Dogen Zenji’s definition of uji in a dictionary, I would say: (1) for something to have its own way of being (attribute) and develop it along its own unique time axis, (2) existence itself which has its own unique time and establishes its own way of being

Malcolm wrote:
Honestly, I cannot parse this and pretend that I understand the authors intent any better at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Refuge Name
Content:
shankara said:
So I heard that Tibetans actually use their refuge name as a name to go by, is that true? Also, what would one call a person? The first name, the middle or the last? I recently received Refuge-from-Afar from Garchen Rinpoche, probably not going to actually take on the name so just curiosity really.

As it happens the name seems to suit me rather well, despite never having actually met Garchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, Tibetan last names are our first names.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Danny said:
So cultural Marxism is a thing...

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is certainly is a favorite bogeyman of the Alt-right and its fellow travelers.

Grigoris said:
In some people's minds shape-shifting reptilian overlords from an invisible satellite planet are a thing...

Doesn't really mean much.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, you didn't realize that reptilians are the main purveyors of this doctrine?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
When we use the term, “exist”

...

There’s the occurring of past and future as actual experience, but it’s all going on within a vast, infinite “now’.

Malcolm wrote:
You still didn't deal with the issue.

For example, a cause which has yet to produce an effect is just a noncause. Since causes and their effects cannot exist at the same time, all so-called "causes" therefore are non-causes, because a cause can only be labeled a "cause" if it has produced an effect.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Every cause is also a result.

Malcolm wrote:
This still does not deal with the issue. Changing the name "cause" to "effect" does not address the fundamental problem of causality in time. Imagining an "eternal" now also does not address the issue. Negating the existence of the past does not work. Collapsing time into the present does not work. Imaging that the present is durationless does not work. None of these linguistic games address the real issue.

To really understand what Dogen meant, I would want to see some native Japanese commentary on the issue. Matylda, where are you when we need you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Danny said:
So cultural Marxism is a thing...

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is certainly is a favorite bogeyman of the Alt-right and its fellow travelers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Danny said:
Marxism is...basic redistribution and consolidation of wealth into someone else’s hands, just not yours.


Malcolm wrote:
I guess you are referring the redistribution of wealth to the super rich under the Trump Administration, and others before it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 18th, 2020 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
the intellectual view of sūtra and tantra is the same.

Astus said:
Does that include the part where for instance one needs to establish for oneself, not just through reasoning but also directly, that the mind is not established in the three times?

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by "the mind is not established in the three times?"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Norwegian said:
These are the kind of people that use this term in a serious way.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in just the same way the Nazi's used the term "cultural bolshevism."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
PeterC said:
On reflection.  I know what it means.


So the practitioners of cultural marxism in our society would be, if anyone, the republican party.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, just as they are the ones who actually subscribe to identity politics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
When we use the term, “exist”

...

There’s the occurring of past and future as actual experience, but it’s all going on within a vast, infinite “now’.

Malcolm wrote:
You still didn't deal with the issue.

For example, a cause which has yet to produce an effect is just a noncause. Since causes and their effects cannot exist at the same time, all so-called "causes" therefore are non-causes, because a cause can only be labeled a "cause" if it has produced an effect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Astus said:
The Bodhichittavivarana expounds:

Malcolm wrote:
Though the Bodhicittavivarana is actually commentarial text on the Akṣobhyavajra section of the Guhysamāja tantra, and is thus, a tantric commentary, not a sūtric commentary. It also is unlikely to be composed by Nāgārjuna I, though that hardly matters.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
You would need to identify exactly which instructions you're talking about to compare the instructions found in sutra on vipasyana and those found in Kagyu mahamudra.

Astus said:
Here are examples from Mahamudra the Moonlight. If required I can copy here the various quotes.

PeterC said:
yes that would be the point.  I think what you're quoting here is the text, not the quotations in the text?

Malcolm wrote:
The only thing Astus is pointing out here, which he has already done, is the intellectual view of sūtra and tantra is the same. No one disputes this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
clyde said:
The (past) baby ‘clyde’ doesn’t exist, yet here I am.

The Buddha taught the dependent co-arising of dharmas,
“When this is, that is,
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn’t, that isn’t.
From the stopping of this comes the stopping go that.”

It’s not some non-existent past ‘this’ that causes ‘that’ to arise, but present causes and conditions. And when those causes and conditions stop being present, ‘that’ stops.

Malcolm wrote:
How do present causes and conditions produce effects in the future which has not yet arisen and thus do not exist? The consequence is just the same.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Ultimately, all that’s happening is the illusion. Even karma is an illusion, but one that is experienced just as real as you experience yourself as real. A buddha isn’t suffering the illusion, which is why a buddha is called “Buddha” or “awakened”. That’s why a buddha doesn’t suffer karma.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not address the issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Grigoris said:
Archaeologists?

Anthropologists?  Okay.  Sociologists?  Yes.  Historians?  Of course.  Political Studies?  Definitely!

But Archaeologists?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this guy is an actual archaeologist...

Grigoris said:
Yeah, I got that.  I just fail to see how it is related to archaeology, though his idea of a constantly shifting (rather than static) view of history allows some room for relevance, but Marxism is hardly an archaeological pursuit.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, and he is castigating nazis for incorrect use of history, archaeology, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


White Sakura said:
just saying:


there is no such thing as sutra Mahamudra for you, Malcom, other then as a name for another term. Since you are not Kagyu.You don´t pay attention to any of the quotes of Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, I know. But this is the Kagyu sub-forum here. So his citations might be of some importance.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you need to read what Kongtrul says on the issue. As I pointed out, I have received Mahamudra teachings in the Karma Kagyu tradition.

florin said:
I thought Kongtrul was wrong. Not only that, but how come you trust English translations?

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t necessarily. But I can read the original texts for myself. Thus, I can judge how accurate translations from Tibetan are.
florin said:
Up until recently you said that English translations can’t  be trusted. Shall we think the same about yours ?

Malcolm wrote:
No translation can catch 100 percent of the nuances of the source language. All I can say about my translations is that they have been peer-reviewed pretty thoroughly. It’s one of the advantages of publishing with Wisdom. Their CEO is a PhD from Harvard, reads both Sanskrit and Tibetan very well, and insists on rigorous scrutiny of manuscripts. I feel very fortunate to have them as my publisher.

And, Adriano C. personally told me that he thought I had done a good job. And of course I invited him to point out any errors he might encounter to improve the overall translation.

florin said:
It seems to me that Kongtrul is right or wrong depending of how the wind of bias and convenience blows.

Malcolm wrote:
I was referring Kongtrul’s own presentation of the three kinds of Mahamudra in his Encyclopedia. There he clearly states “sutra” mahamudra is for students who are not suitable recipients for the two stages approach of the Six Dharmas of Naropa nor essence mahamudra. More importantly, the term “mahamudra” occurs in no sutra at all.

I am not actually arguing about sutra mahamudra. I was rejecting Altus’s citations which contained claims which aren’t sustainable on the basis of looking at what the Indian texts being cited themselves say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
clyde said:
The (past) baby ‘clyde’ doesn’t exist, yet here I am.

The Buddha taught the dependent co-arising of dharmas,
“When this is, that is,
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn’t, that isn’t.
From the stopping of this comes the stopping go that.”

It’s not some non-existent past ‘this’ that causes ‘that’ to arise, but present causes and conditions. And when those causes and conditions stop being present, ‘that’ stops.

Malcolm wrote:
How do present causes and conditions produce effects in the future which has not yet arisen and thus do not exist? The consequence is just the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Cultural Marxism therefore absolutely has white supremacist underpinnings. It is a projection, on to ‘the other’, the enemy, moulded by and built upon the world view of white supremacists. Indeed the precursor Cultural Marxism was a Third Reich invention, ‘Kulturbolschewismus’ (Cultural Bolshevism). It is an extreme right-wing conspiracy theory and it is the role of serious archaeologists and historians to challenge it.
https://archaeosoupblog.wordpress.com/2020/07/16/shaking-the-tree-prohibiting-a-safe-space-for-ahistorical-hatred/

Grigoris said:
Archaeologists?

Anthropologists?  Okay.  Sociologists?  Yes.  Historians?  Of course.  Political Studies?  Definitely!

But Archaeologists?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this guy is an actual archaeologist...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Kanye West announces POTUS run
Content:
Queequeg said:
Kanye has apparently taken his medication and calmed down. He has dropped his candidacy.
https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/507407-advisor-says-kanye-west-no-longer-trying-to-run-for-presidenthttps://
Or maybe he didn't. http://www.newsweek.com/kanye-west-officially-files-run-president-1516348

PeterC said:
Even off his meds he is not crazier than others standing in this election
https://gizmodo.com/qanon-is-running-for-congress-1844403427

Queequeg said:
At what point, do you think, Trumpism turns into a death cult?

Malcolm wrote:
It started out as one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 7:34 PM
Title: Cultural Marxism
Content:
Unknown said:
Cultural Marxism therefore absolutely has white supremacist underpinnings. It is a projection, on to ‘the other’, the enemy, moulded by and built upon the world view of white supremacists. Indeed the precursor Cultural Marxism was a Third Reich invention, ‘Kulturbolschewismus’ (Cultural Bolshevism). It is an extreme right-wing conspiracy theory and it is the role of serious archaeologists and historians to challenge it.

Malcolm wrote:
https://archaeosoupblog.wordpress.com/2020/07/16/shaking-the-tree-prohibiting-a-safe-space-for-ahistorical-hatred/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 7:24 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


White Sakura said:
Definition of that term again please.


Malcolm wrote:
We've established there is no such thing, other than as a name for prajñāpāramitā, to inspire unfortunate yogis.

White Sakura said:
just saying:
Mahamudra, in the Kagyu lineage, has three different classifications or approaches to practice: sutra Mahamudra, mantra Mahamudra, and essence Mahamudra.
there is no such thing as sutra Mahamudra for you, Malcom, other then as a name for another term. Since you are not Kagyu.You don´t pay attention to any of the quotes of Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, I know. But this is the Kagyu sub-forum here. So his citations might be of some importance.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you need to read what Kongtrul says on the issue. As I pointed out, I have received Mahamudra teachings in the Karma Kagyu tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 7:16 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


White Sakura said:
Just asking: If I am taught for nine days, eight hours every day on the Mahamudra prayer of third Karmapa, without a single mantra, Yidam or any other visualization being mentioned during this days-then what is that? Secret Mantra teaching?

Malcolm wrote:
There is actually a blessing empowerment connected with the the Dorjechangma.

White Sakura said:
Thank you
what is Dorjechangma? I only know Dorje Chang Thungma.

Malcolm wrote:
Same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 10:16 AM
Title: Re: The Six vs the Five Elemental Dhātus
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
What is formally differentiating a mahābhūta from a dhātu here?

Malcolm wrote:
Materiality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 10:16 AM
Title: Re: Claim: Buddha Shakyamuni was a student/emanation of Bon Buddha?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Which one did you have in mind? Classical or modern?

tingdzin said:
Sorry, which one what? If you're talking about "authoritative account" of Bon history, I had in mind the one that was promulgated by Drigung Paldzin long ago, and more recently taken up by Sumpa Khenpo, which was still taken as gospel in many quarters of Tibet up to 1950, and I think it was Helmut Hoffmann's main source for his account of Bon (not sure of that, though). A lot of scholars such as Samten Karmay and Dan Martin have devoted some attention to unravelling this account.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh yes, their accounts are largely rubbish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 8:26 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
clyde said:
I didn’t say there was no past. I said it doesn’t exist.

Malcolm wrote:
The past does not exist = no past.

This leads to another problem, of course, if the past does not exist, as you say,  how can a past cause and condition, which do not exist, produce a present effect, which presumably exists? This is also similar to asserting arising without a cause.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 8:25 AM
Title: Re: The Six vs the Five Elemental Dhātus
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
At the Cham Shan temple in Toronto, at least one of the venerables there teaches the Dharma with six elements -- earth, water, fire, air, space, mind. This seems to be a minority practice, as most Buddhisms have the "Five Elements" -- earth, water, fire, air, space. Śrāvaka Buddhism is usually associated with the Four Elements -- earth, water, fire, air.

Of all unlikely places, I found a list of the six elements in śrāvaka scripture, both Theravādin Pāli and Sarvāstivādin Chinese parallels: Chayimā, bhikkhu, dhātuyo: 1. Pathavīdhātu, 2. āpodhātu, 3. tejodhātu, 4. vāyodhātu, 5. ākāsadhātu, 6. viññāṇadhātu.
There are, monastic, these six elements: 1. The earth element, 2. the water element, 3. the fire element, 4. the wind element, 5. the space element, and 6. the consciousness element.
(Dhātuvibhaṅgasutta MN 140)

Where else does six pop up as opposed to five?

Malcolm wrote:
Four Mahabhutas, but six dhatus. All very standard. Nothing to see here, move along.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 6:30 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
clyde said:
If I understand what was written in the OP, there is no “sandwich” and no “three times”. The past doesn’t exist and the future doesn’t exist. There is only one time-existence, the present suchness.

But it’s equally likely I’ve misunderstood.


p.s: Uji, the combining of two terms to form one coherent concept reminds me of Thich Nhat Hanh’s “interbeing”; but that’s a different, though related topic.

Malcolm wrote:
So things arise without causes? How does that work? The Buddha was quite clear, “ Where that arose, this arises,” etc.if there is no past, as you suggest, the consequence is that a) things arise from themselves or b) things arise causelessly because it is never seen anywhere that a cause exists at the time of its effect, or that an effect exists at the time if its cause.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Words and concepts.

Astus said:
That's very Zen of you to say so.
But, I still feel that the question is not yet clarified. You wrote:
Vipaśyanā, in Vajrayāna is not a result of intellectual analysis, it is rather a product of integrating the experience of the example gnosis or the genuine gnosis induced during empowerment, depending on the practitioner.
But you also said that pointing out instructions are equal to the fourth empowerment.



Malcolm wrote:
Pointing out instructions are based on experience, not words.

Astus said:
What was quoted were examples of such pointers, and they are used in vipasyana, but there are others as well, like https://studybuddhism.com/en/tibetan-buddhism/original-texts/tantra-texts/mahamudra-eliminating-the-darkness-of-ignorance/mahamudra-vipashyana-meditation. As for no intellectual analysis, well, right, but that doesn't make it different from how insight is taught in the sutras, in fact, sutras are also used next to dohas and tantras to explain Mahamudra vipasyana, hence my question, whether the dividing line is in how one eventually gets to be able to do vipasyana in order to gain gnosis.

Malcolm wrote:
Honestly, you cannot reason this through in the way you are attempting to do. In all seriousness, you are completely entangled in a  briar patch  of views.

The so-called word empowerment is based on a specific experience. So are Mahamudra pointing-out instructions. I have received one on one Mahamudra pointing out instructions in the Karma Kagyu tradition from Ayang Rinpoche, a direct disciple of the 16th Karmapa. So I understand how this works very well through my own experience. You will not understand this unless you to do the necessary work, find a guru, do what is necessary to please them, and make oneself a suitable candidate for such instructions. It is really that simple.

All the authors of all the Mahamudra books you are fond of quoting all assume that one has the required experience necessary for Mahamudra pointing out.

Further conversation about this is rather pointless. You are like a man who, having never tasted sugar, insists on arguing with those who have what “sweet” tastes like based on descriptions of “sweet” in a number of books.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
These two methods, thw two stages and guru yoga, are more effective for giving rise to vipaśyanā because there is no intellectual analysis involved. It is based on a direct perception, no matter how fleeting, not inferred through reasoning and analysis.

Astus said:
What do you call then instructions like these?

'Establishing the appearance of the mind 
is like a thief in an empty house. 
It is beyond color, form, shape, and characteristics. 
There is no searcher and no object of a search. 
This is my heart's advice. 
Mind and conceptual thought are like water and ice. 
They have always been inseparable, 
yet cannot be said to be one thing or two. 
This is my heart's advice. 
The inseparability of appearance and mind 
is like last night's dream. 
It possesses the four characteristics 
and is the union of appearance and emptiness. 
It cannot be said to be one thing or two. 
This is my heart's advice.'
(The Jewel Treasury of Advice, p 35)

Malcolm wrote:
Words and concepts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 17th, 2020 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Astus said:
If we take Gampopa's word on it, Mahamudra per se is neither sutra nor tantra, but beyond them.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because sutra is spangs lam, the path of renunciation, but in secret mantra systems, there are two paths, sgyur lam, the path of transformation and grol lam, the path of self-liberation. Both Kagyu Mahāmudra and Dzogchen belong to the last path.

White Sakura said:
Just asking: If I am taught for nine days, eight hours every day on the Mahamudra prayer of third Karmapa, without a single mantra, Yidam or any other visualization being mentioned during this days-then what is that? Secret Mantra teaching?

Malcolm wrote:
There is actually a blessing empowerment connected with the the Dorjechangma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Astus said:
I studied and heard mainly some sutra-style Mahamudra teachings, so I'm not particularly familiar with other parts of Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, since you are a bodhisattva, you have an obligation to become expert in all dharma paths as much as possible. So, you better place yourself at the feet of a qualified Vajrayāna master quickly, because all the best ones are dying out pretty quickly.

I personally regret that first encounter with Zen was Eido Roshi, and that I was only 16 at the time when I did a weekend sesshin with him at Dai Bosatsu Zendo in the Catskills. Sometimes, when I am in a particularly generous mood, I am inclined to place Zen among the paths of self-liberation as well. But even when I not so inclined, Zen is the definitive expression of Mahāyāna sūtra paths, AFAIC. But I don't think I could ever practice with Meido. As much as I respect him, not into boot camps or martial arts. I am too much of an old hippy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Astus said:
If we take Gampopa's word on it, Mahamudra per se is neither sutra nor tantra, but beyond them.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because sutra is spangs lam, the path of renunciation, but in secret mantra systems, there are two paths, sgyur lam, the path of transformation and grol lam, the path of self-liberation. Both Kagyu Mahāmudra and Dzogchen belong to the last path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Astus said:
sutra-style Mahamudra teachings

White Sakura said:
Definition of that term again please.


Malcolm wrote:
We've established there is no such thing, other than as a name for prajñāpāramitā, to inspire unfortunate yogis. If you examine Kongtrul's encycolpedia where he reviews the three kinds of Mahāmudra, it is quite clear in his writings that so-called sūtra mahāmudra is for inferior practitioners who are not ready for actual mahāmudra teachings. These days however, these three kinds of mahāmudra are not actually taught separately, as Cone pointed out, and furthermore, this is principally a Karma Kagyu scheme, as far I know.

Also in Sakya, in the Three Visions teachings of Lamdre, they do not use the term "mahāmudra" per se, but they do combine dohas with teachings on śamatha and vipaśyanā. For Nyingmapas, mahāmudra is either an alternate name for the state of Dzogchen, like Prajñapāramitā, or more commonly, refers to realizing the nature of the mind in the form of a yidam, and refers to the third of the four vidyādhara stages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Without empowerment, a guru is just a common Mahāyāna guru, there is no guru yoga in common Mahāyāna.. Guru Yoga is method which strictly belongs to Highest Yoga Tantra. So no, it is not an acceptable distinction. Guru Yoga is also connected with the so-called subtle body, and is not merely a practice of devotion, as is commonly misunderstood.

Astus said:
I did not mean the guru yoga as part of sutra but as part of Vajrayana. The distiction I asked about was regarding the difference of methods getting to the point of being capable of performing vipasyana.

Malcolm wrote:
There are, within, Vajrayāna, two methods of giving rise to nondual gnosis: the first is the practice of the two stages; the second is guru yoga. Not that it really matters, but Sakya Pandita also endorses these two means.

Vipaśyanā, in Vajrayāna is not a result of intellectual analysis, it is rather a product of integrating the experience of the example gnosis or the genuine gnosis induced during empowerment, depending on the practitioner. For example, Naropa likens the experience of the example gnosis to the first bhumi, and while this experience is not necessarily the first bhumi, it can be a genuine gnosis in some persons of higher capacity. When it comes to "direct introduction" or so-called pointing out, the principle is roughly the same.

The difference between the two stages and guru yoga is that one is using the power of devotion ( mos gus gyi rtsal ) to recapitulate the experience of the introduction, where as the former uses the more gradual process of working with this experience in the context of the two stages.

For the latter, having recognized what was introduced, the nature of the mind, one rests in that state.

These two methods, thw two stages and guru yoga, are more effective for giving rise to vipaśyanā because there is no intellectual analysis involved. It is based on a direct perception, no matter how fleeting, not inferred through reasoning and analysis.

Virtually all schools use a combination of guru yoga and the two stages combined into a single practice, for example Five-fold Mahāmudra of Drikung, Naro Khacho of Sakya, and so on. Sort of hedging bets.

Guru yoga in all Tibetan Buddhist schools is regarded as the supreme path to awakening, bar none. Because Kagyu Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are both paths of self-liberation (grol lam), rather than paths of transformation (sgyur lam), guru yoga is the principle path, especially in Dzogchen teachings. The principle difference between Kagyu Mahāmudra and Dzogchen, as Ringu Tulku personally confirmed for me, is that the former lacks tögal. But in the Karma Kagyu and Drukpa Kagyu school, it is quite common for practitioners to spend a long time practicing Mahāmudra, and then eventually embark on practicing tögal, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso, Thrangu RInpoche, etc., are all examples of masters who teach students using this progression. As I understand things in Drikung, having long association with Nangchen Drikungpas such as Gyalpo Rinpoche and Ontul Rinpoche, who are both important gurus of mine who specialize in Yangzab, people other than lineage heads usually choose one track or other other.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 6:47 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Astus said:
but most importantly guru yoga for the same purposes. Is that an acceptable distinction according to you?

Malcolm wrote:
Without empowerment, a guru is just a common Mahāyāna guru, there is no guru yoga in common Mahāyāna.. Guru Yoga is method which strictly belongs to Highest Yoga Tantra. So no, it is not an acceptable distinction. Guru Yoga is also connected with the so-called subtle body, and is not merely a practice of devotion, as is commonly misunderstood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: Existence-Time
Content:
Ted Biringer said:
Seems a bit quiet in here - let's see if anyone wants to talk about Existence-Time (uji)

In Zen time and existence are not two different things; time is always existence-and-time, existence is always existence-and-time. This view is most clearly and comprehensively demonstrated in Shobogenzo’s development and use of the term ‘uji.’ Dogen fashioned this term by combining two terms; ‘u’ (existence) and ‘ji’ (time) into the single term ‘uji’ (existence-time, or time-being). The point that seems most significant here is that existence and time are never separate from each other; each is an essential element of the other – no dharmas exist independent of time, and there is no time independent of dharmas. This notion of existence-time is central to Zen’s vision of reality, thus is presupposed in all Zen expressions.

Hee-Jin Kim brings the crucial significance of this notion to light in a comment from his discussion of the aptly titled ‘Uji’ fascicle of Shobogenzo:

Dogen’s whole thesis in this regard was crystallized in the following: “As we realize with the utmost effort that all times (jinji) are all existence (jin’u), absolutely no additional dharma remains.” In other words, existence-time subsumed space and time totally and exhaustively.
Hee-Jin Kim, Eihei Dogen: Mystical Realist, p.150

In short, each and every particular thing, being, and event (i.e. dharma) is an intrinsic and essential element of total time, and each and every moment or duration of time is an intrinsic and essential element of total existence – hence each and every particular dharma is a manifestation of the whole universe, and the whole universe is manifest in and as each and every particular dharma. In Dogen’s words:

Let us pause to reflect whether or not any of the whole of existence or any of the whole universe has leaked away from the present moment of time.
Shobogenzo, Uji (Trans. Gudo Nishijima & Mike Cross)

Accordingly, in Zen expressions the terms ‘existence,’ ‘time,’ and ‘existence-time’ are synonymous.

Peace,
Ted

Malcolm wrote:
How is this even the slightest bit different than the position of the Hinayana Sarvastivada, “ everything exists in the three times” school?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I just don't wanna go the right wing route and assume a left wing version of "soros protestors" or whatever with no evidence.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm....dude, the Tea Party? Actually funded by the Kochs.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Yes of course I know about all the obvious astroturf stuff, but we are talking specifically about right wing people putting forth the most ridiculous of the left-wing narratives in order to discredit the left, not the general fact that there is a huge right wing propaganda machine.

Malcolm wrote:
My point is that the right accuses the left of what it is quite guilty of: Billionaires funding "grassroots" movements. Hey, I got my check from George S. this week!!!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 5:55 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I was refuting your citations, showing how they do not match the claims put forward for them. If others make errors, why should the one who points them out be held at fault?

Astus said:
What do you then make of Maitripa's teachings, who is often named as the Indian source of equating Mahamudra with Madhyamaka?


Malcolm wrote:
You mean Avadhūtīpa Advayavajra aka Maitrigupta aka Maitrīpa, the disciple of Naropa, the guru of Marpa, who was an adept of Cakrasamvara? Who states in the Tattvaratnāvalī:

Here I shall not explain the texts of secret mantras because they are extremely profound, because they are the domain of those persons very devoted to the profound vehicle, and because practice of the four seals and so on has been very extensively explained. Further:

"Though the goal is the same, unconfused;
with many methods, not difficult,
and to be undertaken by those of sharp faculties,
the treatises of mantra are superior."

We are talking about the same person, correct? If so, what more is there to say about this master's view of sūtra and his position vis a vie Vajrayāna? Perhaps he did equate Madyamaka with Mahāmudra (textual citation please), but how is this different than equating the gnosis of Prajñāpārāmitā with Mahāmudra? No one is claiming the gnosis is different. But in this text, Maitripa is clearly claiming that Mantrayāna is superior in method. I mean, what else is there to say?

Having knocked down your bowling pins one by one, friend, it is high time for you to accept your defeat. You are not equipped for this argument in anyway. You just don't have the language skills in Tibetan (or Sanskrit). That's just a fact. Likewise, I do not have language skills in Chinese, so I generally just leave you to your various arguments in the Zen and Chan forums, and only occasionally pipe up if something is relevant to the presence of Chan in Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
When Gampopa himself talked about the kagyu system of mahamudra as the “single sufficient remedy” he is usually making the point that it doesn’t require Dzogchen as an adjunct.

Malcolm wrote:
In the 11th and 12th century, it was fashionable at the time to dismiss Dzogchen, because a) Lha Lama Yeshe Od wrote a polemical tract against it; Go Khugpa Lhatse wrote a polemical tract accusing its principle imperial and post-imperial period proponents (Ma Rinchen Chog, Nubchen Sangye Yeshe) of forging its basic texts, and so on.

In addition to this, Dzogchen was that old stuff from the imperial period, so it fell out of favor. Both the Kagyus and the Sakyapas had narratives developed around abandoning that Old Time Religion; the former grounded in the narrative of Milarepa being too much of a dunce to understand the teachings of Dzogchen he received from one Rongton; the latter grounded in the narrative of Khon Konchog Gyalpo and his older brother seeing secret Nyingma cham performed in public at a harvest festival. In addition to this was the hostility towards the older translation school tantras mentioned above, which is enthusiastically adopted and promulgated by orthopraxy-obsessed Dromton (who interfered with Atish's wish to focus on teaching Dohas, and termed a māra by Milarepa in one of his songs), etc.

So, from the time of Gampopa, all the way up through 18th century, it was de rigueur for everyone to criticize Dzogchen, notable Kagyupas such as the 8th Karmapa included.

Thankfully, Nyingma tertons and yogis paid such FUD little mind and just kept on promulgating Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 16th, 2020 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I just don't wanna go the right wing route and assume a left wing version of "soros protestors" or whatever with no evidence.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm....dude, the Tea Party? Actually funded by the Kochs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
You won’t find any statement of gampopa himself saying you don’t need any sort of empowerment, whether elaborate or unelaborate.  You present a few quotations that might suggest this, but they run counter to the experience of the vast majority of living and dead kagyu masters.

Astus said:
Why not look for where Gampopa states one needs any sort of empowerment for Mahamudra? The quotations so far clearly differentiated the "tantra" from the "sutra" version, and for the tantric it's unambiguous about the need for empowerment. At the same time, Kagyupas have been under attack since the time of Sakya Pandita that they teach Mahamudra outside the standard HYT system, and various teachers defended their position regarding the validity of Gampopa's Mahamudra. Were they all arguing about nothing?

Malcolm wrote:
You do not understand the parameters of the debate. Sapan says that so-called "sūtra mahāmudra" is just prajñāpāramitā, and as such, is not a swift path to awakening in a single lifetime. He is not arguing that the gnosis which arises from mahāmudra and prajñāpāramitā are qualitatively different. He even argues that to maintain there is a difference in view between sūtra and secret mantra is a qualitative error.

Astus said:
If "unelaborate empowerment" is the pointing out instruction, that is, the very method that Mahamudra is taught, then likely those who debate the absence of empowerment mean the complete four empowerments and they do not accept the possibility that direct introduction equals the fourth empowerment and is sufficient on its own.

Malcolm wrote:
If you examine Kongtrul's encyclopedia, he clearly states, echoing Jñānakīrti, that "sutra mahāmudra" was taught to inferior disciples who were not suitable for receiving actual Mahāmudra teachings. Why? Because they do not receive empowerment of any kind and are not proper recipients. So they receive instructions on śamatha and vipaśyanā, and inspiring dohas to reflect on.

Of course, this is not how the mahāmudra is actually taught in any Kagyu school, so you are just dancing on books you don't understand completely in a tradition that is not your own. A little knowledge as proven to be a dangerous thing in your case, Ācārya Astus. You should stay in your Chan lane.

As for your other point, it is true that Sakya Pandita and others do not accept a so-called "direct introduction" as a sufficient entry into Vajrayāna, but I am not defending Sapan on this point, since I myself do not agree with this perspective.

Nevertheless, those who do accept this principle still understand that "direct introduction," "pointing out," etc., "the empowerment of the potential of vidyā (rig pa'i rtsal dbang)," etc. are empowerments in every sense of the term and defend them on those terms, and consider these empowerments indispensable for entering the path. However, they maintain that these empowerments are reserved for those pupils of highest capacity, hence they are not suitable for everyone. Thus, essence mahāmudra, etc., are traditionally only given to people on the basis of having studied and practiced regular Vajrayāna teachings for many years.

*Most of Sapan's other criticisms, for example, of the karpo cigthub, are directed at Lama Shang, not Gampopa proper.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 9:58 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:



thepea said:
So when medical officials are asked if elevators are safe and they answer yes!! Face the wall, and hold your breath, and they are safe.
My gut says......right?

C-mon this is the most flip-flopped science mess in global history.
My gut says don’t trust one bit.

https://www.startribune.com/hum-or-hold-your-breath-how-to-protect-against-covid-19-when-someone-gets-too-close/571504742/

Johnny Dangerous said:
No one cares about your gut, come with data and a rational argument. Obviously, the science on Covid 19 changes daily, expecting anything else would be silly, or just tremendously ignorant. Public policy is imperfect and yes, plenty of times it's not evidence-based. A lot of the "science journalism" is also terrible.

That's partially because there simply isn't much evidence yet, partially because they are forced to make decisions based on limited information and what is possible (rather than what is desirable), and partially because yes, sometimes public officials make stupid decisions even in the best of times, much less times like these.

Honestly, if you want to rant about Covid 19, you should look at a federal government that is refusing to provide the needed relief and infrastructure during shutdowns, instead of wringing your hands about the shutdowns themselves. A big part of why they are so devastating is because Trump and his cronies do stuff like this:

https://news.yahoo.com/ivanka-trump-tells-workers-to-find-something-new-because-old-jobs-arent-coming-back-183756343.html

And focus on corporate welfare and protecting companies from lawsuits instead of actually providing substantial, long term relief from people effected by the economic effects of the shutdown. It wouldn't be hard, the military budget is still insane.

Rambling on about your "gut" when you don't seem to even know the basics of where the science is at is just silly though.

On the article, I don't know, but since the virus is spread through droplets and possibly aerosol, I suppose being in an enclosed space one's choices are pretty limited. Most of the information I've seen suggests that short term exposure like that is less of a worry anyway. In the future if you have an issue with an article, it might be useful to actually address what's in the article instead of just making reference to "your gut", which means nothing.



thepea said:
Here is a very informative video from a self employed ppe specialist.
Her job is to put together ppe plans for doctors to follow while at hospital, depending on what they are protecting from.

Malcolm wrote:
She is an idiot, and so are you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 9:54 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
conebeckham said:
From my perspective, Kagyupas don't teach "Sutra Mahamudra."

Kagyu lamas teach Mahamudra.  In our day and age, what this means varies by teacher, but I feel confident in saying that Kagyu Lamas teach a variety of methods, from Sutra and Tantra, and use the term "Mahamudra" to denote relating to "nature of mind."   I see "Sutra Mahamudra" as merely the name of a didactic method.  Citations are used, and focus on "Sutra" is stressed, but I've not met any Kagyu Lama who teaches such things in a vacuum, apart from the path of the two stages,even in a simplified form.  The Pointing Out Instructions of the various Kagyu traditions are really equivalent to the Fourth Empowerment, or so it is said.  It may be true that Gampopa was influenced by his "Nyingma past," whatever that means, but it is stressed in our Kagyu traditions that the Dohas and other pith instructions are the inheritance of the Kagyu lineage.  And while it's true that Mahamudra can be taught as a certain application during the path of the two stages, it is also a way of practice incorporating "sutra" methods--Samatha and Vipassana--but with unique instructions and a unique object of focus.

Honestly, though, all Tibetan Lamas of whatever institutional affiliation are Vajrayana practitioners.  So in answer to the original question, I think it's better to see Mahamudra as a Vajrayana corpus of methods, sometimes relating to Sutra, sometimes relating more to "Tantra," but always found in Vajrayana and therefore at the level of Tantra.

For the life of me, I personally do not understand those who must adhere to some sort of notional "Pure Sutra Mahamudra" nor do I find much more than polemics in those who choose to argue vehemently against the "very existence" of a Sutra Mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
Just removing some incorrect claims here Cone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Likewise, you can call Prajñāpāramitā "mahāmudra" if your goal is to inspire unfortunate yogis, as Jñānakīrti maintains, but it is still just calling something a name for which it lacks proper attributes; for example, calling a dog "Lion," or a small hill a "mountain," or a tiny pond a "lake" or a huge man "little."

Astus said:
So would you say then that Kagyupas are quite mistaken, that what has been called one of the main http://namobuddhapub.org/files/teachings/ThranguR-Mahamudra_and_the_Kagyu_Lineage.pdf over the centuries is fictitious?

Malcolm wrote:
I was refuting your citations, showing how they do not match the claims put forward for them. If others make errors, why should the one who points them out be held at fault?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 6:30 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Here's another piece from someone most definitely on "the left":

https://theintercept.com/2020/07/14/cancel-culture-martina-navratilova-documentary/

Malcolm wrote:
Greenwald is whinger too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
On terms of these specific versions, T255 is translated by a Ven Fǎchéng during the early Tang and is apparently translated from a Tibetan version.

Malcolm wrote:
If it is translated from Tibetan, that latter was based on a Sanskrit text, unless the translation is specifically identified as being based on a Chinese translation. In this case, it would likely be Vimalamitra's translation. But that is not that early, circa 800—810.

Caoimhghín said:
Because of the king who's name I can't remember that instructed his translators to favour Sanskrit over buddhavacana in Prākrits like Gāndhārī, in Chinese, etc. Who was the king again?

Malcolm wrote:
Ralpacan.


Caoimhghín said:
I was surprised to see this translation as listed as coming from Tibet. The information was pretty freely available, yet academics who speculate on Heart Sutra origins never cite this. This is a big hole in the theory that the Sanskrit version of the Heart Sutra is a Tang dynasty forgery. There must be some bias, whether right or wrong, causing them to doubt the origin of the T255 translation. That is the only thing I can think of.

Malcolm wrote:
There is also the reference by Wongchuck of an early Sanskrit version he had access to, also ignored by the Heart sūtra conspiracy theorists like Jayarava.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Queequeg said:
https://nypost.com/2020/07/14/bari-weiss-resigns-from-new-york-times-citing-illiberal-environment/

More fallout.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, this is conservative whinging, as usual. Good riddance. She can go write for Barfbart.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Therefore, we can understand the term "mahāmudra" exists exclusively the tantras.

Astus said:
Even if that were so, apparently Kagyupas, starting with Gampopa, taught what is now called sutra Mahamudra, and it is a unique teaching of this tradition, and there's an offshoot Mahamudra among the Gelugpas, where they also teach it as a separate one from tantra Mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
It is so, it is not "even if that were so."

Also, the First Panchen Lama's "Ganden" Mahāmudra when it was introduced was quite controversial and even derided by the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, and remains somewhat controversial even still; though the present Dalai Lama has a more charitable view of it then did his predecessor. Indeed, a book of his teachings on this subject was published by Snow Lion.

So, Astus, I can call you a buddha, but that is a mere nominal designation, because I am pretty sure if we look between your legs, we will see that your penis dangles down like all other ordinary men, rather than being withdrawn into a sheath, like a buddha. Likewise, you can call Prajñāpāramitā "mahāmudra" if your goal is to inspire unfortunate yogis, as Jñānakīrti maintains, but it is still just calling something a name for which it lacks proper attributes; for example, calling a dog "Lion," or a small hill a "mountain," or a tiny pond a "lake" or a huge man "little."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 15th, 2020 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Astus said:
Not only that; the term Mahāmudrā is used for emptiness. The King of Concentration Sutra says, “The intrinsic nature of all dharmas is Mahāmudrā.”

Malcolm wrote:
The Samādhirāja Sūtra says nothing of the sort.

The term "mahāmudra" is not exist in that sūtra or any other. This is just a fact. Therefore, you must stop using this citation. The scholar who originally claimed this citation as a support for mahāmudra was merely interpolating his bias into the text in order to deceive his hapless disciples.
The passage you are citing is this one:

།འདི་ལས་སངས་རྒྱས། ཡེ་ཤེས་མཆོག་ཀྱང་འབྱུང༌། །ཆོས་རྣམས་ཀུན་གྱི་རང་བཞིན་ཕྱག་རྒྱ་སྟེ། །ཏིང་འཛིན་འདི་ནི་འདྲེན་བདག་གིས་བཤད།

“It originates from the supreme wisdom of buddhahood.
It is the seal of the nature of all phenomena.
This is the samādhi taught by the guides."

17.144, Roberts, 84,000 edition.

Therefore, we can understand the term "mahāmudra" exists exclusively the tantras. Even there is has different meanings.

Indeed the Tattvāvatārākhyasakalasugatavacastātparyavyākhyāprakaraṇa says "Another name of the Bhagavāti Prajñāpāramita is mahāmudra, because it has the inherent nature of nondual gnosis."

But this has been poorly understood. Here, the Bhagavāti Prajñāpāramita is part of the maṇḍala of Guhyasamāja, etc., as the text describes in detail.

Further, far from being a treatise which equivocates sutrayāna or provides a basis for claiming that sutrayāna also has mahāmudra, it is quite the opposite. It is a text which explicates secret mantra for those of the best capacity. It says, "Because other yogis lack good fortune (skal med), gnosis is taught as mahāmudra in order to introduce them."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Astus said:
"The other term for the Mother Perfection of Wisdom is mahamudra, because it is the very essence of nondual pristine awareness."'[/i]

Malcolm wrote:
Too bad you did not read Jñānakīrti's whole text. You are merely dancing on books you cannot even read in the original. Just cherry picking citations because they suit your biases. Sorry, but this is the case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 7:45 PM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
If you wanted to make the left irrelevant, focusing purely on identity politics is a great way to do it. So, I agree...in general the Left of today doesn't think tactically about messaging at all, just ideologically, and usually in very simplistic terms. Like I said though, Bernie's campaigns awakened a glimmer of hope, maybe.

PeterC said:
Maybe there is a message of hope there.  Sanders didn't talk about identity politics at all.  He talked a lot about basic economics.  And he had a lot of support from the kids who do care about identity politics, curiously.  That might suggest that it's really just education and information that they're lacking.  However the vilification of Sanders from all directions shows just how little many sides of the political spectrum really wanted to have that discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because revolutions, whether peaceful or violent, are very Inconvenient for oligarchs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 7:43 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
Go Lotsawa was writing about four hundred years after Gampopa, if I remember the dates correctly.  In Gampopa's own writings he repeatedly states the importance of empowerment. See the two texts Tony Duff translated of his.

Astus said:
Is Jamgon Kongtrul wrong then?

'Dakpo Rinpoché induced the realization of mahamudra even in beginners who had not received empowerment. Therefore this is the tradition of the perfections. These are instructions arising primarily from the Kadampa tradition.'
(Treasury of Knowledge, vol 9, p 212)

And Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche?

'The Sutrayana approach to Mahamudra is seen as a very profound method because it does not require any of the sophisticated and complex tantric rituals, deity yoga visualization practices, or samayas. It is a simple sutra approach, yet it conveys the direct transmission of the tantric essence of awakening. This particular approach is also known as a secret passage. 
...
The Sutra Mahamudra approach is seen as a specialty of the Kagyu tradition and was the central emphasis of Gampopa's teachings. Therefore, although it originated in India and was also taught by Marpa and Milarepa, Gampopa is regarded as the main figure responsible for bringing this teaching to its full development and manifestation.'
(Wild Awakening, p 32, 33)
There are Kagyupas who say things like that, and there are Kagyupas who would not.  Of those who would say that, some would qualify it by saying that the pointing out instruction, which is central to the practice of Kagyu Mahamudra, could also be interpreted as a form of the fourth empowerment. Those who would not say that typically give an empowerment whenever they do a teaching on Mahamudra.
Jamgon Kongtrul also notes (ToK, v9, p 213): 'It has been the practice of most of Dakpo’s heart disciples to present the mahamudra instructions after having first bestowed the empowerment.'

The same practice of mixing is also noted by Tashi Namgyal:
'In the present age, Mahamudra and Mantrayana [tantric mysticism] are being blended and meditated upon in order to enhance realization. Many tantric elements are also incorporated into the preparatory practices. For those who wish to practice these, the empowerment for actualizing the inner potentiality is certainly essential.'
(Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 125)
So it's a distinction without a difference.
It's a distinction made by Thrangu Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s a distinction without a difference, as PC states.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 7:42 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
PeterC said:
Go Lotsawa was writing about four hundred years after Gampopa, if I remember the dates correctly.  In Gampopa's own writings he repeatedly states the importance of empowerment. See the two texts Tony Duff translated of his.

Astus said:
Is Jamgon Kongtrul wrong then?

'Dakpo Rinpoché induced the realization of mahamudra even in beginners who had not received empowerment. Therefore this is the tradition of the perfections. These are instructions arising primarily from the Kadampa tradition.'
(Treasury of Knowledge, vol 9, p 212)

Malcolm wrote:
Doesn’t it occur to you that this is Kongtrul basically acceding to Sapan’s objections?

The place Sapan would have trouble with is a) the assertion of cigcar realization and b) terming a perfection vehicle result “Mahamudra” since the term does not exist in any sutra at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 7:01 PM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:


Astus said:
Based on Gampopa's teachings it's more likely from the Kadampas, if anyone.

'In line with the texts by Monlarn Tsiiltrim, these instructions are further evidence that Mahamudra style teachings existed in the Kadampa School, that this was the case even before Gampopa, and that Gampopa received such instructions.'
(When the Clouds Part, p 198)

Malcolm wrote:
This is Karl’s opinion, but as I said, not even the Kagyus agree on where Ganmpopa derived the four yucas. Yangonpa, for example, assets they are a result of Gampopa’s own experience. The Drikung assert they were first taught by Milarepa (according to my teacher, the late Gyalpo Rinpoche), etc. it is very unlikely the Kadampas had such a scheme because it is found nowhere in the writings of Atisha and his immediate students. Gampopa only became a Kadampa monk in his middle years, after the death of his wife. Before this, he was a Nyingma practitioner, this well known.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 10:23 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
thepea said:
Have you ever heard the expression, “trust your gut”?

Queequeg said:
Oh, well.

The ol' substitute the gut for formal education and training.

Yep.

Malcolm wrote:
Guts are remarkably unreliable, as any one in the stock market will tell you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 10:20 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:



PeterC said:
Hold on just a minute.  I was watching Fox News the other day and it told me that all us lefties are 100% focused on social justice and transgender bathrooms and not give a shit about the american working man.  So the last few posts on this thread are invalid and should be ignored. Meanwhile the republicans are fighting for the working class' interests by making sure that only those with high-paid jobs get healthcare, only the rich can get their kids a decent education, companies aren't inconvenienced by having to comply with laws, and that there's a strong police force to suppress the rabble. Just wanted to clear that up in case there was any misunderstanding.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Indeed, it's important to know who to criticize, and when. I mean I'm "on the side" of the people I'm complaining about. Seriously though, the stuff you mention above is often left out of the debate with the most vocal social justice advocates, even when it should be front and center, rather than policing of speech, etc. Bernie's campaign did a lot to advance the right ideas, but quite honestly I'm amazed at the number of young people who identify as "left" that have a fully identarian viewpoint, with little real focus on issues like the one's you mention. You still have to look to the "old left" for a lot that stuff, even with Journalism.

PeterC said:
There's probably a few causes of that, but what I find striking about the young "left" is that they severely lack historical perspective and critical thinking skills.  The labor movement in the past had a genuine connection from one generation to the next.  That's largely been lost.  I suspect to a large extent the "identarian" perspective has been shaped by its opponents, because it's easy to attack. A debate about intersectional justice vs. christian values is great for the "right", but it's an irrelevant debate.

Malcolm wrote:
White identarianism is now the dominant voice in what passes these days for conservativism, oh wait, it has since Buckley...sorry, I meant the civil war, oops, wait make that 1492...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 10:00 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
None.  But Vajrayana also does not believe in the efficacy of renunciation (or more to the point:  it does not consider it the most efficient manner to achieve liberation).  That puts it directly at odds with the Sravakayana.

Astus said:
If it does not renounce the three poisons, does it simply deny their existence? Because if it accepts that beings are driven by them, then either one can go by obeying the impulses, or not. Not obeying is renunciation.

Malcolm wrote:
Or you can transform those impulses without renouncing them. That’s the point. Since this conversation is becoming repetitive, there is little point in continuing it further. You are free to consider sutra methods equal to Vajrayana methods, or equally efficacious. You are wrong of course, but that is not my problem. It’s yours.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 9:50 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Astus said:
On an island of gold one does not hoard gold, one does not want gold at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. The difference between this example, and your example of an empty plate is that we are not talking about an empty plate, thus your example is a non sequitor. The correct example would have been an island that was nothing but Apple pie.
Astus said:
Yes, skandhas are buddhas, and buddhas are pure beings, and thinking of oneself as a pure being is a unique method of Vajrayana. But even if one can reimagine oneself, that in itself does not liberate one from the three poisons, does it?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. One can rapidly realize Mahamudra (first bhumi) quite rapidly through the creation stage alone. 1) meditating on oneself as being a Buddha is far more meritorious than meditating on an external Buddha; 2) we have not even covered how the preliminaries of a sadhana practice generates all the merit and gnosis accumulations required, etc. there are many such reasons you can discover if you studied these things properly rather than just reading books, in other words, actually made an effort to learn these things from lineage masters. For example, your ludicrous assertion that Gampopa eschews empowerment rites. He doesn’t. In order to have a guru, one needs to receive some form of abhisheka. Otherwise, all the empowerment’s Gampopa received and gave would have been absolutely pointless. He never claims they were pointless. Very little written by Gampopa has been translated. You are presenting a very partial view of his thought. Most scholars have focused on polemics between early Sakya masters and early Kagyu masters, to the extent that a more robust view of what Gampopa actually taught, rather than a narrow and defensive presentation of his Mahamudra (about which there is considerable disagreement even among Kagyus) is sorely absent from modern discussions.

Astus said:
So I'm asking about some clear reasons for such an opinion.

Malcolm wrote:
They have been given.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
On terms of these specific versions, T255 is translated by a Ven Fǎchéng during the early Tang and is apparently translated from a Tibetan version.

Malcolm wrote:
If it is translated from Tibetan, that latter was based on a Sanskrit text, unless the translation is specifically identified as being based on a Chinese translation. In this case, it would likely be Vimalamitra's translation. But that is not that early, circa 800—810.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Sutra, Tantra, Mahamudra
Content:
Astus said:
(3) The path of Mahamudra is “the path of prajna” and “the path of suchness,” which relies on blessing and is for those who are intelligent and of sharp faculties.

Malcolm wrote:
It still requires an empowerment. The so-called "descent of the gnosis vajra empowerment" discussed by Indrabhūti in the Jñānasiddhi. The main practice of course here is guru yoga, this is the "blessings" part.

In this respect, Gampopa is cribbing his early training as a practitioner of Nyingma tantras, and the Mind Series (sems sde) in particular.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
KathyLauren said:
No one is going to jail for expressing viewpoints that fall short of hate speech.

Malcolm wrote:
These days, they don't even go to jail for hate speech.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
PeterC said:
Even the leaders in the socialist revolutions of the early 20th century were the intelligentsia.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and made defensive arguments about why they had never worked for a day's wage in their lives.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Jonang Kalachakra online empowerment July 24-27
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
One thing to keep in mind with Kalachakra is there are two empowerments. There is the outer empowerment and the secret empowerment. No way he can give the secret empowerment online.

Malcolm wrote:
Why not? HHDL did so in Washington DC when he gave Kalacakra there the last ime. He gave the whole kit and kaboodle, and it was streamed live, all of it. Seem to me to be the lama's choice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
thepea said:
Not to be callous but this virus does not seem capable of ending humanity. Many get this virus and experience harmless symptoms.
Why now?

Malcolm wrote:
Because there are long term health consequences for those who get this virus and become ill, and are permanently disabled from it, with brain damage, heart damage, lung damage, liver damage, kidney damage, and so on, that's "why now."

Further, we do not know the consequences for asymptomatic carriers, what kind of damage this virus will wreak on their health...but some information beginning to arrive, and it does not look good.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
thepea said:
government has never taken a spare no expense attitude.

Queequeg said:
The US Government mobilized the entire economy in response to World War II.

Maybe the government will start to take the necessary steps to avert climate disaster next. We can only hope.


Malcolm wrote:
Hope is for suckers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
This is true. There is this thing going on a lot in modern vajrayana. Folks just get empowerments. But what is meant to happen is an empowerment, full transmissions of all the sadhanas and full instructions on the practices. That way a person knows what they are doing and when to do it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, what you say quite correct. People never sit down and learn one HYT sadhana practice from soup to nuts. Once they do this, all other sadhanas are cake. They never bother to pay attention to how to integrate their 24 hour a day activity into their practice. And so they remain confused and dissatisfied, and rather than understanding why they are interested in this system and that system, they wander around like hungry ghosts in search of food and water they never find.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:



Sādhaka said:
Perhaps; but these things are rarely explained it seems.

Malcolm wrote:
There is not much to explain. Bless your food, clothes, bathing water, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
This Aryadeva thing is Gelukpa,

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no. Khenpo Ngawang Palzang, Chatral's Rinpoche's guru, wrote an amazing commentary on this text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Based in a to achieve buddhahood to benefit all beings eat the apple pie and enjoy it. You are a bodhisattva now. No need to  rush.

Astus said:
That does not seem to agree with the teachings.

'Take food as medicine, in the right amount,
Without attachment, without hatefulness:
Don’t eat for vanity, for pride or ego’s sake,
Eat only for your body’s sustenance.'
(Letter to a Friend by Nagarjuna, v 38, tr Padmakara Translation Group)

'Buddhas told those with desire
That food, clothes and dwellings are all
To be avoided and to remain
Close to their spiritual guides.'
(Four Hundred Stanzas by Aryadeva, v 138, tr Ruth Sonam)

'Most sentient beings are greedy for tastes; for the sake of food, they commit vile actions and are born in the hells. But those who {know the Dharma} are contented, not greedy, free from longing; they do not bow down to the sense of taste, but are contented and can be nourished even with very low-quality food.'
(Multitude of Jewels Sutra (Ratnarāśisūtra) quoted in The Training Anthology of Santideva, p 127, tr Charles Goodman)

See also: https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/maha-prajnaparamita-sastra/d/doc225714.html

Malcolm wrote:
These above teachings are consistent with the path of renunciation. However, they are contradicted by the higher teachings of Vajrayāna, the path of transfomation, and the citations illustrating this point have already been provided above, so there is no need to repeat them here.

As also mentioned above, the Buddha's teachings of sūtra are for those with a) less affliction, and b) less capability. But contrast, Vajrayāna teachings are designed for those with a) greater affliction, and b) greater capabilities.

Therefore, can either accept the Buddha's teachings in the tantras, in which case, one has no choice but to become a Vajrayāna practitioner; but failing that, if one cannot generate faith in these teachings, then leave them aside, but do not criticize them, because there in lies the fault of criticizing the Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 14th, 2020 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In sūtra there is no antidotal method of conceiving the appearance of things as pure which are typically conceived by ordinary sentient being as impure. Emptiness, in sutra, is provided as cure for this, in terms of nature, but not in terms of appearance. Vajrayāna address both nature and appearance; sūtra only addresses nature, not appearance.

Astus said:
One sees a tasty looking apple pie. How not to fall into craving? For instance, the Vitakkasanthana Sutta gives five (progressive) methods: pay attention to something else (that is conducive to good thoughts), consider the drawbacks of craving, forget and pay no attention to it, relax the mental fabrications/concoctions about it, subdue the thoughts by force. Or one can think of it as something disgusting, something undesirable; or as something insubstantial, meaningless, and worthless. How would Vajrayana address this situation? If one thinks one is a buddha one can just give in to any impulse?

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, these are all based on renunciation of sense objects since one has ordinary concepts concerning them.

With respect to "giving into impulses" Vajrayāna there is eating yoga, sleeping yoga, bathing yoga, yoga for engaging in sexual intercourse is one is a lay person, etc., everything to transform ordinary daily conduct and bring it into the path by replacing impure conceptuality with pure conceptuality.

When one is on an island composed entirely of gold, one will have attachment to no specific part of it, one will have no discrimination towards anything on it, and thereby, one is freed of clinging.

Astus said:
The distinction between the the common and uncommon Mahāyāna is principally the difference between method, the latter being more efficacious and more rapid. One does not merely regard oneself as buddhanatured, causally, one regards oneself as a buddha from the outset of entering the path. One does not regard one's teacher as being "like a buddha," one regards one's master as an actual buddha right from the outset and so on, based on the special methods of abhiṣeka, sadhana, and so forth.
How does it make it more efficacious to think of oneself being a buddha, instead of not to think of oneself as anything at all?

Malcolm wrote:
We already think of ourselves, this is a given. In other words, in just the same way as fire is used to put out fire, or water is used to draw water out of the ear, the creation stage uses conceptuality to overcome conceptuality. Hence it is more profound than methods which try to suppress or eliminate conceptuality, such as those you mention above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 13th, 2020 at 7:39 PM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:



haha said:
I found inconsistency in above quote (i.e. inconsistency in term with the Heart Sutra that I am familiar with). And, I am not familiar with this version of Heart Sutra. Is it possible to get the reference?

akuppa said:
Yes, its from here: https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

Would you mind explaining what you find inconsistant?

haha said:
Thank you for the link.

iha sariputra: sarva-dharmah sunyata-alaksana  anutpanna aniruddha, amala avimala, anuna aparipurnah.
http://www.dharmafellowship.org/library/texts/heart-sutra.htm

एवं शारिपुत्र सर्वधर्माः शून्यतालक्षणा अनुत्पन्ना अनिरुद्धा अमला विमला अनूना असंपूर्णाः।
http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/content/400/1828%20Praj%C3%B1%C4%81p%C4%81ramit%C4%81h%E1%B9%9Bdayasutram%20%5Bvistaram%C4%81t%E1%B9%9Bk%C4%81

Therefore, Śāriputra, all dharmas are emptiness; they are without characteristics; they are unarisen and unceasing; they are not tainted and not untainted; they are not deficient and not complete.
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/words-of-the-buddha/heart-sutra
In your provided quote, it says, “all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness”

The heart sutra that I am familiar with states: sarva-dharmah sunyata-alaksana. It means all dharmas are emptiness, without characteristic, etc. It does not say: Sarva-dharma sunyataa-laksana (i.e. all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness). For this reason I said inconsistency.

Malcolm wrote:
This difference arises from a difference between how the Chinese has been rendered and the Sanskrit original.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 13th, 2020 at 7:38 PM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
"All phenomena" are called both "pure" and "neither defiled nor non-defiled" in the Prajñāpāramitā. The former is positive, and the latter a negative description of the same thing?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 13th, 2020 at 6:27 AM
Title: Re: Non-natural environments
Content:
tobes said:
A few months ago we had 5g installed. The phone line is in my shrine room so that's where the modem etc went. I know there are ridiculous tinfoil hat theories about 5g which are obviously false. But: I could really really feel the difference and it really really affected my meditations - kind of a throb or pulse which was constant and intense. I swiftly brought some extension cords and moved them out of the room, which solved my problem.

Malcolm wrote:
Low frequency sounds are demonstrably upsetting to people, animals, etc. it has nothing to do with magnets (other vibrations that they can produce) or electrical fields, and everything to do with subaudible low frequency vibrations. My 2 cents... as a former industrial musician/ sound terrorist...the things one can do with an oscillating bandpass filter...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 13th, 2020 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Lama Lena Teachings
Content:
javier.espinoza.t said:
once i hear lama Lena say "Dzogchen is like anal sex, if you don't relax it cannot go in " LOLLLL

that was a piece of good damn teaching. i still lmao when i remember.

Tata1 said:
Khampa  saying according to her

Malcolm wrote:
Unlikely, given the Tibetan aversion to “wrong orifices.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 13th, 2020 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Unknown said:
Editors are fired for running controversial pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists are barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes

Malcolm wrote:
.

This nothing new in American culture. Remember the Scopes Trial? Etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 13th, 2020 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:



akuppa said:
I agree, and if the Prajnaparamita Sutras call what is empty pure, then it is enough for me.

So unless I can find some source for empty = unconditioned, my original idea was wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness = uncompounded. Citations can be supplied. But I wouldn't make too much of it.

akuppa said:
Well if you could at least point me in the right direction regarding the literature, i'd be grateful.

Besides "I wouldn't make too much of it." means that emptiness is only uncompounded on a conventional level, since both the compounded and uncompounded are ultimately empty, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Keep reading Mahāyāna sūtras.

https://84000.co


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 13th, 2020 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:
Queequeg said:
What does it mean to be Pure? Without defilements, impurities, contaminants, etc.

When we say something is empty, we mean it is compounded - ie. it is empty of intrinsic value; it is an incident (which include our psychological involvement with the proposed entity) that we falsely ascribe an entity to. But there are no entities from the beginning - just our ascribing of distinctions. The elements composing this incident are themselves empty. Anything we can say about any thing, or its constituents, is a discernment in our mind; ie. projections. There is nothing we can say about objects projected upon - because they don't exist. They are themselves functions of the distinction of self and object...

This analysis goes on and on until one is ready to give up. This analysis always defeats any notion we have.

There is nothing to say beyond our conjecture. We can, however, intuit that its not nothing... we call it pure because what else is there to say about it? It sheds any projections we put on it with bewildering ease... and yet its not nothing... it has no features... yet not nothing...

What is that?

That's what sitting on the cushion is for.

akuppa said:
I agree, and if the Prajnaparamita Sutras call what is empty pure, then it is enough for me.

So unless I can find some source for empty = unconditioned, my original idea was wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness = uncompounded. Citations can be supplied. But I wouldn't make too much of it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:


Minobu said:
empty is not called pure.

Malcolm wrote:
The Samadhirāja Sūtra states:

Youth, bodhisattva mahāsattvas know well that all phenomena are insubstantial, devoid of inherent existence, devoid of signs, devoid of characteristics, nonarising, unceasing, devoid of syllables, empty, peace from the beginning, and utterly pure by nature.

The Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Lines:

Since inner emptiness is utterly pure, up the utterly purity of the emptiness of the inherent existence of the absence of entities, omniscience is utterly pure.

M


Minobu said:
inner emptiness ? this is something other than sunyata...

I don't think this is in line with Lord Nagarjuna's teaching on Sunyata.

Malcolm wrote:
Interesting perspective. Why you think that Nāgārjuna's teachings on emptiness supercede important and definitive Mahāyāna sūtras, especially the Prajñāpāramitā, which is the definitive set of sūtras on emptiness?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then you've misunderstood what "ordinary conceptuality" means. What does it mean? It means to conceive the five buddhas, the five mothers, the male and female bodhisattvas as skandhas, elements, sense organs and sense objects.

Astus said:
Then instead of me https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542869#p542869 it, let's be more specific. For instance, what is perceiving Vairocana in/as the sound of a doorbell? How is it something other than the standard 'form is emptiness, emptiness is form'?

Malcolm wrote:
Are your concepts about a buddha is pure or impure? If they are impure, what would be the point of Buddhānusmṛti?  In sūtra there is no antidotal method of conceiving the appearance of things as pure which are typically conceived by ordinary sentient being as impure. Emptiness, in sutra, is provided as cure for this, in terms of nature, but not in terms of appearance. Vajrayāna address both nature and appearance; sūtra only addresses nature, not appearance.

Astus said:
The sūtras do not teach that the five skandhas, five elements, sense organs, sense objects and so on, are, their real nature, the mandala of the five buddhas, five mothers, etc.
The sutras teach the indivisibility of the two truths, and its realisation. Vajrayana may put that into a practice of visualising buddhas, but the point is still to get rid of grasping at phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the point is here efficacy of methodology. Of course, if you do not have faith in Vajrayāna, then it won't work for you, just as if you do not have faith in the curative properties of given medicine, you will not take it.

Astus said:
Incorrect. The methodical difference is related to both kinds of gnosis, not merely the first, since in ordinary persons, the second arises from the first.
Real wisdom is the defining attainment of noble beings, and it is realised through vipasyana, wouldn't you agree?

Malcolm wrote:
The distinction between the the common and uncommon Mahāyāna is principally the difference between method, the latter being more efficacious and more rapid. One does not merely regard oneself as buddhanatured, causally, one regards oneself as a buddha from the outset of entering the path. One does not regard one's teacher as being "like a buddha," one regards one's master as an actual buddha right from the outset and so on, based on the special methods of abhiṣeka, sadhana, and so forth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:


Minobu said:
empty is not called pure.

Malcolm wrote:
The Samadhirāja Sūtra states:

Youth, bodhisattva mahāsattvas know well that all phenomena are insubstantial, devoid of inherent existence, devoid of signs, devoid of characteristics, nonarising, unceasing, devoid of syllables, empty, peace from the beginning, and utterly pure by nature.

The Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 Lines:

Since inner emptiness is utterly pure, up the utterly purity of the emptiness of the inherent existence of the absence of entities, omniscience is utterly pure.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Astus said:
The Fivefold Mahamudra is a teaching of the Drikungpas coming from Jigten Sumgon.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is actually a teaching that comes from Phagmo Drupa, and as such, is also found extensively taught and practiced in Drukpa Kagyu as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 7:30 PM
Title: Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?
Content:


Chanh Dao said:
I don't think that Mahayana having married monks is an issue at all.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not an issue, since it is not permitted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 7:18 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:



PeterC said:
If you somehow equate these people to Vasubandhu, or equate consideration of their work to debate over whether a sutra is authoritative - then you really need to regain some sense of proportion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 6:58 AM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:



akuppa said:
Ok, but why is what is empty called pure? Surely it is beyond ideas of purity and impurity. The Heart Sutra:

Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.

Malcolm wrote:
Because emptiness is beyond defilement and purification, the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras term emptiness "originally pure" or "pure from the start."

Minobu said:
what exactly are you on about malcolm? you are trying to define emptiness as a thing ...a pure mind philosophical argument of what mind is...oh it's emptiness... No malcolm...

talk about mind and pure Rigpa states and such but don't say empty is pure ...or empty can't be impure cause it's pure...

Malcolm wrote:
Would you like a quote from the Buddha on this point? Correct emptiness is not a thing, which is another reason it is pure. All things are pure because all things are empty. Even emptiness is empty, therefore it is also pure from the beginning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
“Malcolm” said:
The Yoginīsañcaryam states:

Further, when in a later time,
in the last age siddhi cannot be obtained…
…having understood this Dharma as such,
all that one intends will be completed.


Sādhaka said:
Are you implying here that this text is saying that in the Kali Yuga, we’ll be unlikely to attain relative Siddhi’s, but that if we stick to our Vajrayana practice (despite our capacity (or lack thereof)) we will be guaranteed liberation shortly before, during, or after our physical death in this lifetime?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is saying that any siddhis, whether common or supreme, can only be realized through secret mantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:



akuppa said:
How can something be impure if its ultimate nature is pure?

Malcolm wrote:
That's the point. However, we still regard phenomena as impure and so on. That's why we bathe and wash our clothes.

akuppa said:
Ok, but why is what is empty called pure? Surely it is beyond ideas of purity and impurity. The Heart Sutra:

Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.

Malcolm wrote:
Because emptiness is beyond defilement and purification, the Perfection of Wisdom sūtras term emptiness "originally pure" or "pure from the start."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Queequeg said:
Who knows - maybe environmental devastation will be the future that makes the Left and Right fight we see now irrelevant...

Malcolm wrote:
The true left is the environmental left. The rest is just marxist and post-marxist bullshit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Open Letter from intellectuals lamenting racism and intolerance
Content:
Queequeg said:
the sense that America must live up to its place as the City on a Hill...

Malcolm wrote:
Bad metaphor rooted in colonial white supermacy:

John Winthrop's City upon a Hill, 1630

Now the onely way to avoyde this shipwracke and to provide for our posterity is to followe the Counsell of Micah, to doe Justly, to love mercy, to walke humbly with our God, for this end, wee must be knitt together in this worke as one man, wee must entertaine each other in brotherly Affeccion, wee must be willing to abridge our selves of our superfluities, for the supply of others necessities, wee must uphold a familiar Commerce together in all meekenes, gentlenes, patience and liberallity, wee must delight in eache other, make others Condicions our owne rejoyce together, mourne together, labour, and suffer together, allwayes haveing before our eyes our Commission and Community in the worke, our Community as members of the same body, soe shall wee keepe the unitie of the spirit in the bond of peace, the Lord will be our God and delight to dwell among us, as his owne people and will commaund a blessing upon us in all our wayes, soe that wee shall see much more of his wisdome power goodnes and truthe then formerly wee have beene acquainted with, wee shall finde that the God of Israell is among us, when tenn of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies, when hee shall make us a prayse and glory, that men shall say of succeeding plantacions: the lord make it like that of New England: for wee must Consider that wee shall be as a Citty upon a Hill, the eies of all people are uppon us; soe that if wee shall deale falsely with our god in this worke wee have undertaken and soe cause him to withdrawe his present help from us, wee shall be made a story and a byword through the world, wee shall open the mouthes of enemies to speake evill of the wayes of god and all professours for Gods sake; wee shall shame the faces of many of gods worthy servants, and cause theire prayers to be turned into Cursses upon us till wee be consumed out of the good land whether wee are going: And to shutt upp this discourse with that exhortacion of Moses that faithfull servant of the Lord in his last farewell to Israell Deut. 30. Beloved there is now sett before us life, and good, deathe and evill in that wee are Commaunded this day to love the Lord our God, and to love one another to walke in his wayes and to keepe his Commaundements and his Ordinance, and his lawes, and the Articles of our Covenant with him that wee may live and be multiplyed, and that the Lord our God may blesse us in the land whether wee goe to possesse it: But if our heartes shall turne away soe that wee will not obey, but shall be seduced and worshipp other Gods our pleasures, and proffitts, and serve them, it is propounded unto us this day, wee shall surely perishe out of the good Land whether wee passe over this vast Sea to possesse it;

Therefore lett us choose life,

that wee, and our Seede,

may live; by obeyeing his

voyce, and cleaveing to him,

for hee is our life, and

our prosperity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The difference is not view nor the goal, Buddhahood, the difference is in method, the intelligence of the trainee, and so on.

Astus said:
And that difference in method is the question. You have kindly provided https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542802#p542802 of Vajrayana methods, where it was made clear that the difference proposed was how it's not the five objects of desires that are given up but 'the ordinary conceptuality about the five objects of desire that is the root of all attachment and aversion'. To that I https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=542869#p542869 that it is no different from what is done in Sutrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you've misunderstood what "ordinary conceptuality" means. What does it mean? It means to conceive the five buddhas, the five mothers, the male and female bodhisattvas as skandhas, elements, sense organs and sense objects.


Astus said:
So, how is there a difference in method, when the method of Vajrayana is to eliminate ordinary concepts instead of objects, and so it is with Sutrayana too?

Malcolm wrote:
The sūtras do not teach that the five skandhas, five elements, sense organs, sense objects and so on, are, their real nature, the mandala of the five buddhas, five mothers, etc.

Astus said:
Secret Mantra is superior because the wisdom which arises in the mind at the time of the descent of gnosis, or third empowerment and so forth, is freedom from proliferation realized directly.
That is an answer then to have wisdom available from the start, although the third empowerment is said to be only an example, and the fourth is the actual realisation that is the level of Dzogchen (Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 2, p 130-132) and Mahamudra (e.g.The Treasury of Knowledge, vol 6, p 231-233; further elaborated in Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 485-490).

Malcolm wrote:
It is not certain that the gnosis of the descent of the gnosis being or the gnosis demonstrated during the experience of third and fourth empowerment is only an example wisdom. That depends very much on the trainee. But there is no method of inducing either an example gnosis or a realized gnosis in any sūtra tradition as the entrance to the path. Why? In sūtra, abhiṣeka is reserved for tenth stage bodhisattvas in the second half the tenth bhumi, as indicated by the Avatamsaka, Lankāvatāra, and other sūtras.

Astus said:
The verbal instruction to directly see the nature of mind is found in both the Vajrayana and the Sutrayana (Mahamudra the Moonlight, p 181), so if there is a methodical difference, it is related to the example wisdom, but not the real one.

Malcolm wrote:
Incorrect. The methodical difference is related to both kinds of gnosis, not merely the first, since in ordinary persons, the second arises from the first.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 12th, 2020 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
In common Mahāyāna, like Hinayāna schools, relatively speaking, phenomena, other than path dharmas, are still compounded, suffering, and not-self, and hence impure. Their ultimate nature, emptiness, is pure.

In uncommon Mahāyāna Secret Mantra, phenomena are rendered pure through special methods which change our attitude towards phenomena.

akuppa said:
How can something be impure if its ultimate nature is pure?

Malcolm wrote:
That's the point. However, we still regard phenomena as impure and so on. That's why we bathe and wash our clothes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:



Queequeg said:
...mainstream...

Malcolm wrote:
This term, when used by the EBT crew, invokes the idea that the "eighteen schools," who supposedly regarded the agamas and the nikayas as the only authentic buddhavacana, was the dominant form of Buddhism in India. Of course, the largest of these schools were the Pudgalavādins, who also advocated the notion of inexpressible self, neither the same as nor different from the aggregates.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: emptiness is pure
Content:


akuppa said:
In non-Mahayana "mainsteam" (for lack of a better word) Buddhism, phenomena are not pure, they are conditioned, suffering and non-self. This is the meaning of emptiness and dependent origination there.

But in Mahayana emptiness is unconditioned, phenomena are unborn and non-arising (epithets of Nibbana in mainstream sources). This is why they are said to be pure.

How far off am I in my understanding here?

Malcolm wrote:
In common Mahāyāna, like Hinayāna schools, relatively speaking, phenomena, other than path dharmas, are still compounded, suffering, and not-self, and hence impure. Their ultimate nature, emptiness, is pure.

In uncommon Mahāyāna Secret Mantra, phenomena are rendered pure through special methods which change our attitude towards phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?
Content:
Queequeg said:
But, to add to the main point, one of the reasons the Buddha gave for the promulgation of the rules was to make a good impression on the lay community.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 7:44 PM
Title: Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?
Content:


Grigoris said:
But is it our job to judge their behaviour...?

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, since that is one of the reasons the Buddha began to institute all these rules. If he had lived to be a 100, there would have been a thousand rules, not merely 250+-.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: "practice in daily life"
Content:
clyde said:
Substituting “fitting” for “adjusting” doesn’t make the meaning any clearer. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean. How would that apply to everyday activities for lay practitioners?

Malcolm wrote:
It means bringing everything into the path and employing everything as the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 9:14 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Even extraordinary beings like Śākyamuni Buddha, from the point of the perception of ordinary beings, endeavored for three incalculable eons on the path until attaining full awakening under the bodhitree on the bodhimaṇḍa.

Minobu said:
and yet after being asked about that three times Lord Sakyamuni replied it was in fact a long time ago when He first attained Buddhaood..

I the Lotus Sutra it gives this incredible math on the time period.

So apparently it was all just theatre under the Bodhi Tree.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it adds up to three incalculable eons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 6:51 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:



Kim O'Hara said:
Here's a longish piece about how Melbourne, our second-largest city at about 5 million people, got hit with a second wave of cases.
The take-home message is that "suppression" (keeping case numbers low) is always going to be likely to fail, meaning that "elimination" plus hard border controls looks increasingly likely to be the only path back to some kind of normality.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-11/fuel-spark-victoria-response-virus-public-health-bushfire/12443982


Kim

Johnny Dangerous said:
I'm more convinced that Covid is not going away, normality isn't going to return I'm afraid.

Malcolm wrote:
If we can kill smallpox, we can kill Covid, it merely requires international cooperation. But that won’t happen until DOTUS is voted out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: Claim: Buddha Shakyamuni was a student/emanation of Bon Buddha?
Content:
tingdzin said:
I think Ramble was just being provocative or polite with his blurb, or both. Ermakov's magnum opus (now about 20 years old) has a lot of interesting and valuable information on Siberian shamans that he gained first-hand, but the work as a whole is not very scholarly and is never cited by Tibet scholars. Still, as an exercise in showing how weak the received assumptions on Bon/Buddhist relationships are (the "authoritative" account that has been repeatedly relied on by Tibetan scholars is a tissue of falsehoods), the work is worth reading if you have a lot of time and take it with a shakerfull of salt.

Malcolm wrote:
Which one did you have in mind? Classical or modern?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 6:17 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
SteRo said:
The US behave like a developing country. Shame on the US.

Malcolm wrote:
No one behaves like anything and there is no country to be developed, and no US.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 6:16 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
PeterC said:
Important to remember that the coronavirus is just the appetizer, there are multiple main courses to come. For instance:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3092563/chinese-embassy-warns-deadly-unknown-pneumonia-kazakhstan The Chinese embassy in Kazakhstan has warned of a deadly “unknown pneumonia” after the former Soviet republic reported a spike in pneumonia cases since June.

“The death rate of this disease is much higher than the novel coronavirus. The country’s health departments are conducting comparative research into the pneumonia virus, but have yet to identify the virus,” the embassy said in a warning to Chinese citizens in the country. ...

“The Chinese embassy in Kazakhstan reminds Chinese nationals here to be aware of the situation and step up prevention to lower the infection risks,” the embassy statement said.

Malcolm wrote:
Mamos. There is a new variant of H1N1 too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: Lay people studying vinaya
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
I was actually going to ask this on this site later on, but now this thread started I will ask now, because I think it is relevant to if there is a forum about monastic life.

I grew up having heard that lay people shouldn't study vinaya.
But now that I'm an adult I discover that so much commonly known information comes from the vinaya. And one lay teacher of mine said it's fine for lay people to study the vinaya and that there is no rule against it.

So mys questions,
Is there really a rule, like a written rule, about lay people studying vinaya?

Bristollad said:
All three geshes I've received Vinaya teachings from have said that such is the rule.  During sojong (the fortnightly repairing of vows), even the novices aren't allowed to attend or listen to the fully ordained section.  One of the geshes though did allow novices who were soon to take full ordination to read the vows of the fully ordained in preparation.  However, the study and discussion of them still had to wait until after full ordination.  There seems to be a lot more of the Theravadin material available in translation than from the Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya (followed by the Tibetan traditions).  I don't know about the Dharmagupta Vinaya material.  There are two books from the Dalai Lama on the vows of the novice, and on the vows of the fully-ordained.  In the front of the novices' book, it says it is restricted to those who have received novice ordination.  The other book for fully-ordained has a similar notice restricting it to those who are fully ordained.

Malcolm wrote:
Just a strategy to keep upasakas, etc., ignorant. It’s bullshit. Vinaya was compiled long after after the Buddha’s passing, This is why there are so many different ones, with different rules, rites, and so on, and most of the vinaya rules were instituted by the Buddha because lay people complained about this or that bhiksu’s behavior. Thus Vinaya should be studied by Upasakas to keep the Shramaneras honest.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?
Content:


Grigoris said:
Because they do not receive the respect they deserve.

Malcolm wrote:
Their clothes might deserve respect, but not necessarily the people in the clothes.

Grigoris said:
You of all people know how difficult it is to uphold the monastic precepts, anybody capable of doing so deserves a degree of respect.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s actually my point. Most people in robes, whether Tibetan or Western, are complete failures when it comes to maintaining their vows. Hence my comment about respecting the clothes, but not necessarily the person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?
Content:
Queequeg said:
As much as we might benefit from monastics participating here... I would not want them sullied with our off color humor. I'd like to promote their purity, not defile them by dragging them into it.


Malcolm wrote:
Mud, lotus. If they are real śrāmeneras, they will flourish, not be stained.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: Why is there no section about Mahayana Monastic life?
Content:


Grigoris said:
Because they do not receive the respect they deserve.

Malcolm wrote:
Their clothes might deserve respect, but not necessarily the people in the clothes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: "practice in daily life"
Content:
clyde said:
Elsewhere, Meido posted this:
Meido said:
In the modern era there is an increasingly common conceit (not just in Zen) that "practice in daily life" means that one can adjust practice to fit one's life, instead of adjusting one's life to fit practice. There is also a common conceit that one need not practice a lot.

clyde said:
What does “practice in daily life” mean?

I don’t know what Meido meant by “adjusting one’s life to fit practice.”

Malcolm wrote:
It means fitting the Dharma into one's life, rather than fitting one's life into Dharma. The latter is a desiderata, the former is dilettantism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Gorsuch revisited
Content:
Queequeg said:
The relation between the tribes and the US Federal government is interesting. The tribes have some sort of weird semi-sovereignty within the United States. I recall reading that one of the Iroquois nations - maybe Mohawks? - had declared war on Germany and Japan at the outset of WWII so that they could maintain a claim to sovereignty while also letting tribe members serve in the US Military. This sovereignty has in recent decades been used to open casinos and sell cigarettes and gas, tax free, but its encouraging to see the tribes getting a little more of their sovereignty back.

I haven't read the details of these decisions, but going on your descriptions - I can't understand how a state's rights argument applies to the tribes.

Anyways... I hope Trump dies in prison. It will be interesting to see which Russian gangsters have been his backstops and lenders over the years.

PeterC said:
The federal courts' jurisprudence on tribes is, frankly, a mess, and SCOTUS was the worst offender in that respect. There is apparently a joke amongst lawyers working in tribal law that the *real* canon of tribal law is: the Indians always lose in the end.

Basically the senior judges in the federal appellate courts and the supreme court understand the interplay of state and federal law but simply do not understand where tribes fit in. Since most of the cases involve a conflict between state law and tribal law, they generally give the decision to the states. It's been a constant source of frustration for tribes over the decades.



Malcolm wrote:
And BTW, a link to the master's thesis of the designer of this tee shirt:

https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/555854/azu_etd_13699_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:


LastLegend said:
1) how is full awakening defined? as a complete Buddha or total samadhi of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Samyaksambodhi.

LastLegend said:
2) a controversial question and only my opinion we can disagree here: how many on the forum have attained the actually attained full awakening? There is no way to know. It remains my opinion that’s not many.

Malcolm wrote:
Zero. Buddhas don't hang on internet forums.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 11th, 2020 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
LastLegend said:
The issue here is views are often grasped by consciousness. Once wisdom is directly discerned, I don’t think people should go back to the old grasping way of views. It’s about using this wisdom to go further. How? That depends on traditions. But if see this wisdom as the way, then it should be the foundation. It might be individual and cultural that East Asian culture favors ‘simple’ methods within that wisdom. Maybe. Might not be true to Japan Tantric.

Malcolm wrote:
Simple is not necessarily rapid. It all depends on how much you desire omniscience in order to benefit other sentient beings. Without entering Vajrayāna, one cannot possibly attain full awakening in less than 20 eons, should one be an ordinary sentient beings. Even extraordinary beings like Śākyamuni Buddha, from the point of the perception of ordinary beings, endeavored for three incalculable eons on the path until attaining full awakening under the bodhitree on the bodhimaṇḍa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The question that must be posed then is: how does sutra transform ordinary conceptuality? Seeing appearances as insubstantial does not transform them into pure phenomena that maybe be readily enjoyed by the practitioner.

Astus said:
If by seeing them as insubstantial you mean a conceptual label, sure, that doesn't help that much. But that is a known mistake. However, if it is actually seeing their emptiness, in other words, not falling into extreme concepts about them, then that is no different from what is taught in Vajrayana about how to take appearances as/on the path. On the fourth Dharma of Gampopa, where both the Sutrayana and Vajrayana approaches are mentioned,

Malcolm wrote:
I suspect you might try this gambit, so checkmate.

The difference is not view nor the goal, Buddhahood, the difference is in method, the intelligence of the trainee, and so on. For this reason Tripṭakamālā states:
Although the goal is the same, since it is unconfused,
with many methods, not difficult,
and mastered by those of sharp faculties,
Mantrayāna is superior.
Sonam Tsemo comments:

Now then, first, the goal is that same in that there is no difference in what is to be realized, the dharmadhātu, suchness; and the result to be obtained, Buddhahood, and the method of obtaining it, bodhicittz. But it is superior because of the four methods which cause those to arise in one’s continuum:

1) There is no confusion concerning the view to be realized.
2) Many methods to accomplish the result.
3) Awakening is accomplished with ease because there is no difficulty.
4) Since the result is accomplished rapidly, faculties are “sharp”.
And:
Secret Mantra is superior because the wisdom which arises in the mind at the time of the descent of gnosis, or third empowerment and so forth, is freedom from proliferation realized directly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Astus said:
How are then the sutras saying anything different?

Crazywisdom said:
These are just ideas about awakened state not the way to practice it. How can one distinguish a conceptual emptiness from the actual luminosity with these sentences? Methods with body speech and mind hone in on and make clear what Buddha is really talking about. Does not rule out one can be awakened from sutras if one has that merit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:



Astus said:
Not necessarily. For instance, if one accepts a Vaipulya Pitaka and a Dharani Pitaka as parts of the Buddha's words, then they serve as a basis of measuring anything questionable.

Malcolm wrote:
And if one accepts the Vidyādhara piṭaka???

In sum, to address your fear of contradictions, the Buddha's higher teachings regularly conflict with the Buddha's lower teachings, and this is determined by content alone, and not provenance.

Aemilius said:
And if one accepts the revelations received by Madam Blavatsky or by Billy Meier, or by a person accepted in the Buddha at the Gas Pump, for example.
Are they determined by the content alone?
I don't have that experience.
Some people in the DW are allergic to names of these persons or others like them. After which no rational discussion is possible.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and Madame Blavatsky, etc., are found to be wanting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 7:20 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:


Astus said:
But then, I don't see the sutras teaching anything else. Seeing things as they are is to see that appearances are insubstantial, that they are actually ungraspable and inconceivable. When that is clear, there is no basis for clinging. How are then the sutras saying anything different?

Malcolm wrote:
The question that must be posed then is: how does sutra transform ordinary conceptuality? Seeing appearances as insubstantial does not transform them into pure phenomena that maybe be readily enjoyed by the practitioner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 6:14 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:


Astus said:
I don't think any path promotes accepting or rejecting as the way to go. Rather, to be free of grasping, one needs to see things as they actually are.

Malcolm wrote:
This is consistent with the path of renunciation, including Khenchen's comment.

But in Vajrayāna, we do not give up the basis, that is, the five objects of desire. Loppön Sonam Tsemo states in his General Presentation of the Divisions of Tantra:
First, the basis, as explained before, is the five desire objects. Those are the basis itself, but if it is the objects themselves, how are they to be given up? Since most people are totally fettered, how are [they] able to give up [the basis]?

[The basis] is not to be given up. The Vajrapañjara Tantra states:

Created by passion, the worldly
shall be liberated by the same passion.

And the Śrī Guhyasamāja:

The passionate desiring wisdom
always rely on the five desire objects.

Now then, if one asks “Won’t there be bondage because of objects?” Those without a method will be bound, i.e., like common beings. If one possesses a method, liberation is assisted by those [objects] themselves. For example, like poison, or like fire. Therefore, objects do not intrinsically create bondage. Bondage is created by the deceived concepts that depend on those [objects].

For that reason, since one is liberated because of having given up the intrinsic cause of bondage [i.e. deceived concepts,] the objects which [earlier] became the condition of that [bondage] [now] become the condition of liberation.

As such, the Śrī Hevajra-tantra states:

The savage actions of people
bring bondage by this and that;
If one possesses the method, by just those [actions]
one shall be liberated from the bondage of becoming.

How does this in fact work? Again with respect to the creation stage:
The first is having understood the object and subject of who and what appears as oneself as the sole deity, sensual pleasures are mentioned in the Śrī
Guhyasamāja:

All the desired pleasures
are what one serves with desire;
make offerings to oneself and others
with the yoga of oneself as the deity.

It is also mentioned in the same way elsewhere. That reduces and then dispels the ordinary concepts of those interested [in desire objects]...Since that is so, the cause of bondage is concepts of the ordinary. If that is a consciousness of a deity, since the ordinary ceases, everything will be given up respectively.

With respect to the completion stage:
Second, skill in means of the completion stage is the arising of nonconceptual samadhi dependent on any suitable method, and because of that, the objects change their aspect, and can be enjoyed.

As such, the Continuation of the Guhyasamāja Tantra states:

The form of aggregates, elements and gateway
arising from method and wisdom
are definitely applied in mantra
with the yoga of the completion stage.

In that way, the cause of bondage is conceptuality. Since non-conceptual samadhi removes conceptuality, all bonds will be respectively released.

Finally, with respect to how liberation actually occurs in Vajrayāna:
Third, the way one is liberated from that [bondage]: as before, in general the cause of bondage is just conceptuality, and in particular, concepts of the ordinary because the afflictions, etc., arise respectively depending upon that. That being so, if the intrinsic nature of that cause is dispelled by the two methods [above], since the aspect of the objects has changed, again one can depend on objects since they have been transformed into assisting antidotes. As such, The Hevajra Tantra states:

Since the poison has been eliminated by purification,
these objects to be relied upon are reliable.

The problem of liberation is not to be quickly resolved by renunciation of the five objects of desire, rather, it is to be quickly resolved by relinquishing the ordinary conceptuality about the five objects of desire that is the root of all attachment and aversion. Sonam Tsemo argues:
Also it is said that the Pāramitāyāna is intended for those of dull faculties who wish awakening: in general, those of little affliction, and in particular, for those who are able to give up the tormenting attachment to desire.

Also Secret Mantra was taught intending those of sharp faculties who wished unsurpassed awakening: in general, for some people whose afflictions are strong, and in particular, who cannot give up the tormenting attachment to desire.

As such, if Secret Mantra is taught for those more afflicted, if it is asked “Won’t Secret Mantra not be superior since those with great affliction are inferior?” A person is not inferior because his afflictions are great. One who cannot rely on antidotes is inferior. Even though his afflictions are greater, since [afflictions] are destroyed, the method is better. As the Sūtrālamkāra states:

Possessing great methods, 
afflictions become the limbs of awakening;
samsara’s nature is peace,
therefore, the sons of the victores are inconceivable.

For example, if there is nothing other than a small fire (the antidote) it will not be able to utilize a large amount of firewood (the object to abandon). If the fire is larger (the antidote), likewise a large amount of firewood (the object to abandon) will assist the blazing fire.
So, in Vajrayāna practice, since in the age sentient beings are laden with much greater affliction than in ages past, we pile on the desire objects so that the fire of gnosis will blaze more brightly, through the use of skillful methods. Therefore he adds:

The Yoginīsañcaryam states:

Further, when in a later time,
in the last age siddhi cannot be obtained…
…having understood this Dharma as such,
all that one intends will be completed.

Therefore, followers of the Pāramitāyāna do not accomplish [awakening] in this degenerate age, but followers of Secret Mantra do accomplish [awakening] in this degenerate age. The Herukābhyadaya also states:

If one upholds Śrī Heruka,
There will be accomplishment in the decadent age.

Since that is so, it is reasonable to enter Secret Mantra exactly in the present time.

With respect to Dzogchen teachings too, Garab Dorje states:
Without fuel of affliction, how can the fire of gnosis burn?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Waiting time to cremate after passing away?
Content:
uncrase said:
My dad passed away and one of the wishes he has conveyed to my mom was related to that he did not want his body
to be disturbed and/or cremated for a specific amount of time after death. We think it was one week.

She does not recall the details and what exactly it was based on, but it came from his filosophical / meditative / spiritual
nature - not extreme, just loosly something he was into.

This came up for example when he was considering donating his body to sciece, from which he backed out because it would mean his
body would need to be opened and disturbed already a few days after passing away.

Does anyone have any clues what religious or spiritual stream this relates to, or it may have been come from?
We're not sure how much of this was his own making, and/or religious "rule" or thought it was based on?

Any input would be very much appreciated

Malcolm wrote:
Three days.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: Ability to Control the Weather
Content:
yagmort said:
[Mod note: This quote was taken from this old thread: https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26392#p404144   ]


Malcolm wrote:
...Kunzang Dechen Lingpa had this ability. Ngagpa Rinpoche was able to stop monsoon rains, droughts, and so on.

yagmort said:
are these abilities connected to Thröma Nakmo practice, or it's just a coincidence ?

Malcolm wrote:
There is a method for controlling Nāgās for making rain in several practices systems, but my guru, the late Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje, maintained that his ability to control the weather was inherited from one of his ancestors, who has a siddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:


Astus said:
Even if such distinctions were accepted, the end result would still be the same liberation. Appearances are selfless, empty, buddhas, or self-liberated - it's either one is lost in clinging or not.

'It is said that all the learned and accomplished masters of India and Tibet had the same realization and there is not a single master who claims that the realization of the main part of practice is anything other than nonfixation.'
(Naturally Liberating Whatever You Meet: Instructions to Guide You on the Profound Path by Khenpo Gangshar, in Vivid Awareness, p 227)

Malcolm wrote:
There are two ways be free of grasping: regarding all things as impure and rejecting them as such (Hinayāna and common Mahāyāna), and regarding all things as pure and accepting them as such. The latter method more rapid, but requires special methods, so that it is not merely an intellectual posture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Man, can I boil this question down again and ask:

In Buddhist terms, what exactly is the soteriological relevance of "Early Buddhism" as it's envisioned by it's proponents? People have alluded to differences in meditative practice, I'd be really curious to hear more on that.

bridif1 said:
Apparently (from what some portion of the scholar community seems to indicate), the historical Buddha taught how to stop dukkha and the cycle of rebirth, and from this simplified, there doesn't seem to exist much difference between EB and Mahayana schools.

Malcolm wrote:
The existential question Hinayāna and Mahāyāna dharma aim to resolve is the same.


bridif1 said:
The divergence becomes evident when we look the figure of the one reaching the goal: for EB, the figure of highest praise, outside from the Buddha, is the Arahant, because the fulfilled the ideal set by the Teacher. The bodhisattva ideal and the emphasis in aiming for Buddhahood instead of arahantship seem to come from a later period of doctrinal development.

Malcolm wrote:
No, if it were, the Buddha would have been content to be a pratyekabuddha.


bridif1 said:
What I wanted to understand were the historical reasons behind those developments, and I thought a Mahayana forum could be a good place for asking for Mahayana history.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people will be inclined to give you an emic response, others an etic response.


bridif1 said:
On the differences on meditative practices:
I don't know almosy anything about method of meditation in Mahayana schools, so there's little I could say about it. Where I see the differences, both in appearence and in general structure, is in some modern Theravada and secular meditation techniques when being compared to what it is described as "jhana" in EBTs. There are some essays, books and studies on the matter of the historical development of the understanding of what is Samma Samadhi and on the assessment of the differences between early and current buddhist views on SS. I'm currently reading "Reexamining Jhana: Towards a Critical Reconstruction of Early Buddhist Soteriology", by Grzegorz Polak, in which he postulates his hypotheses based on his own and multiple previous studies, and by looking into other texts from non-buddhist schools and comparing such texts with what it seems to be the early or no-so-later strata of texts in the Pali Canon. These differences, as far as I'm studying them, seem to be absolutely relevant for the path; it is not merely an academic matter (at least not for me).

Malcolm wrote:
The thirty-seven bodhipakṣadharmas are the same in both systems. The difference is solely motivation. Also in both systems, the cultivation of the dhyānas above the first lead to traces that have to eradicated on the path seeing. Therefore, the higher seven dhyānas should only be cultivated by āryas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:


Astus said:
I don't really see those conflicts, but I guess that is already another conflict.

Malcolm wrote:
For example, Śrāvaka bhikṣus cannot handle gold, but may eat meat. Mahāyāna bhikṣus may handle gold, but may not eat meat. Vajrayāna bhikṣu may both handle gold and eat meat. There are many such contradictions because "the Buddha's higher teachings regularly conflict with the Buddha's lower teachings."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 10th, 2020 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: Kanye West announces POTUS run
Content:
Queequeg said:
It would be pretty amazing to see Kanye pull out a wad of $100s and make it rain over the stage to demonstrate he is a legit billionaire compared to Trump's shabby posturing.

PeterC said:
Exactly.  Then perhaps he can go on to compare his fidelity to Kim Kardashian to Trump's affairs.  A rapper doesn't cheat on his wife but the president of the US cheats on all his wives, including while they're pregnant.

Malcolm wrote:
Revise that to "especially while they're pregnant."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
Some of the skillful qualities cultivated in tantric system are directly at odds with basic tenets in the Sravakayana.

Astus said:
Skilful qualities (kusala dharma) are those that are free from craving, anger, and delusion (see: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.ntbb.html#kusala ). What is it that Vajrayana considers skilful that is rooted in the three poisons?

Malcolm wrote:
The distinction generally drawn is between renunciation (three lower vehicles) and transformation (kriya tantra to anuyoga). In Vajrayāna, through skillful means:

"That by which fools are bound,
by that same thing the wise are liberated."

--Saraha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is valid only if one supposes that the shravaka canons are the standard by one judges what constitutes buddhavacana.

Astus said:
Not necessarily. For instance, if one accepts a Vaipulya Pitaka and a Dharani Pitaka as parts of the Buddha's words, then they serve as a basis of measuring anything questionable.

Malcolm wrote:
And if one accepts the Vidyādhara piṭaka???

In sum, to address your fear of contradictions, the Buddha's higher teachings regularly conflict with the Buddha's lower teachings, and this is determined by content alone, and not provenance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Grigoris said:
And who gets to decide what is authentic Dharma?  Historians?

Astus said:
"Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.'"
( https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html )

Malcolm wrote:
This is valid only if one supposes that the shravaka canons are the standard by one judges what constitutes buddhavacana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:


Bundokji said:
It is early to know what countries have adopted better policies than others, but Sweden's policy of "sustainability" (which i personally like) is often linked to being prepared for the long term fight with the pandemic, acknowledging uncertainty in time and taking into account the health implications of strict health measures on the general population.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html

Bundokji said:
This is what has happened: Not only have thousands more people died than in neighboring countries that imposed lockdowns, but Sweden’s economy has fared little better.

“They literally gained nothing,” said Jacob F. Kirkegaard, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. “It’s a self-inflicted wound, and they have no economic gains.”
Hi Malcolm.

In his recent exchange with the WHO, Sweden's chief epidemiologist  Anders Tegnell indicated that its too early to make conclusions.

Malcolm wrote:
He is a fool too.


Bundokji said:
Do you have any objections about their rationale rather than citing news articles?

Malcolm wrote:
Death rates.

Bundokji said:
More generally, strict lockdowns does not equate success. We have cases of countries that imposed strict lockdowns and failed due to other factors, and we have examples of the opposite.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually we don't.

The solution to success in this pandemic is very simple: testing + quarantine + contact tracing. All countries who followed this recipe, such as Taiwan, New Zealand, and so on, are doing fine. Those who failed in any one of these three pillars of pandemic control are not doing very well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Trump is an idiot, but lockdowns aren’t sustainable either, we are in a terrible situation.

Malcolm wrote:
It would be sustainable if our gvt. actually behaved responsibly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Dan74 said:
How is being polite going to be detrimental to saving lives?

Malcolm wrote:
Because when people are being fools about Covid, they will likely behave in ways that put others in mortal danger, such as not wearing masks, refusing to socially isolate, and so on.

One infected person in Wuhan resulted in 4800 infections.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 9th, 2020 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Bundokji said:
Earlier today, Trump tweeted that the death rate from Coronavirus is down tenfold. I am certain that many would disagree, but does anyone know how he came up with this? what kind of statistics and assumptions he was relying on?

Malcolm wrote:
He pulled it directly out of his ass.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Bundokji said:
We should...keep our minds open and not make conclusions?  How will that help anyone make actual decisions on public health?
There are different ways of dealing with uncertainty, i hope i am not stating the obvious? What might look now as a good policy might turn out to be as not the best one and vice versa.
I’m sorry but what you’re saying is incoherent.
I did not make any incoherent statements. On the contrary, your style of communicating seems to be accusatory.

PeterC said:
It is - I’m accusing you of being a fool.  My reasons are above.

I don’t want people to die unnecessarily. That is more important right now than being polite.

Malcolm wrote:
Seconded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
How is this exercise in conjecture about the date of these texts useful to a mahayani or a Vajrayani? This is only of interest to non-practitioners.

Astus said:
Aren't practitioners invested in the matter of studying authentic Dharma? The authenticity of a teaching is commonly decided based on its provenance, and only secondarily by its content.

Malcolm wrote:
The authenticity of a teaching is decided on the basis of its content, not its supposed provenance, determined by some historiographical criteria, which is at best arbitrary and a product of the perceptions of common people.

What you are basically proposing is that the authenticity of a given Dharma text or teaching is to be determined on the basis of the contaminated perceptions of common people rather than the uncontaminated insight of āryas. Thus, practitioners invested in the matter of studying Dharma should follow the latter rather than the former.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:


Bundokji said:
It is early to know what countries have adopted better policies than others, but Sweden's policy of "sustainability" (which i personally like) is often linked to being prepared for the long term fight with the pandemic, acknowledging uncertainty in time and taking into account the health implications of strict health measures on the general population.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/07/business/sweden-economy-coronavirus.html

Bundokji said:
This is what has happened: Not only have thousands more people died than in neighboring countries that imposed lockdowns, but Sweden’s economy has fared little better.

“They literally gained nothing,” said Jacob F. Kirkegaard, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. “It’s a self-inflicted wound, and they have no economic gains.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It really doesn’t prove anything.

Astus said:
When sravakas are depicted as people holding views that are found in texts clearly later than the agamas, then on what basis is it reasonable to assume that such a work is earlier than those that contain the views mentioned?

Would you take, for instance, that such stanzas like these were uttered as true prophecies?

'From the Mahāsāṃghika school
Will seven schools separate,
And from the Sthaviravāda eleven.
These are the twenty schools.
These eighteen and the original two
All derive from the Mahayana.
Neither correct nor incorrect,
I say that these will arise in the future'
(The Sutra of Mañjuśrī’s Questions, BDK ed, p 99)

Or that there was talk of Vaibhasikas before the existence of the Mahavibhasa?

'Then instruct upon the Vaibhasya doctrine and after that the Sutranta doctrine. Then instruct upon the Yogacara doctrine followed by the Madhyamaka doctrine. After teaching all the practices of mantra, then commence with the instruction on the Hevajra practice.'
(The Concealed Essence of the Hevajra Tantra, p 273)

Malcolm wrote:
How is this exercise in conjecture about the date of these texts useful to a mahayani or a Vajrayani? This is only of interest to non-practitioners.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Evaluating the lateness or earliness of a text is like measuring the length of the horns on rabbits.

bridif1 said:
So you don't any utility and validity coming from textual criticism?
If that's the case, nothing I could say would stand as a valid argument.

Malcolm wrote:
Dharma cannot be found in text criticism. It involves a tremendous amount of conjecture and speculation, which is all proliferation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 7:29 PM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Agamas and nikayas are not early, and Mahayana is not late.

bridif1 said:
Forgive my insistence on this, but when we evaluate we earliness or lateness of a text, what are we analyzing?
Its date of writing? The date of the events refered to in the texts? The date of the beginning of the oral transmission of the teaching? The date of some posterior modifications?

When you say Agamas and Nikayas are not early, what are you stating exactly?

Malcolm wrote:
Evaluating the lateness or earliness of a text is like measuring the length of the horns on rabbits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 7:24 PM
Title: Re: in defense
Content:


Dan74 said:
it stems from the distrust of a tradition that deemphasises Mahayana dogma (note, I did not say 'dismisses').

Malcolm wrote:
This is mainly a western no-nothing trip. Any brief exploration of Dogen, Hakuin, etc., reveals that theses masters were deeply knowledgeable in sutra, and even “esoteric” Buddhism, and emphasized a combination of scriptural knowledge combined with practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 7:02 PM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, this mistaken, the seals are given in different orders in Mahayana sutras, but they are present, I’ll give you a list tomorrow or next day.

Fortyeightvows said:
Sure in the Mahayana sutras, definitely, I have no doubt.

But can you find it in any of the early texts, like the agamas or nikayas ?

Malcolm wrote:
Agamas and nikayas are not early, and Mahayana is not late.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 6:51 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Bristollad said:
how do you choose the features that identify an "early" text.  Material arranged in such a way as to be easy to recite and memorise does not make it an early text, it only makes it material arranged to be easy to recite and memorise.

Astus said:
That is not the only criteria, however, it is accepted by all that the teachings were recorded in writing only later, so it is one of the signals, but, again, not the only one.

Malcolm wrote:
Text criticism is basically scholastic wanking. It really doesn’t prove anything. Guesswork at best, downright erroneous at worst.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 7:35 AM
Title: Re: What was the reason behind the development of new vehicles?
Content:


Fortyeightvows said:
We should also add that the whole thing about dharma seals is also from much later

Grigoris said:
You love to make statements without providing evidence for their veracity, don't you?

Fortyeightvows said:
Well, it is true and everyone who has studied the agamas know it.
Even the english wikipedia page says it and cites everyone's favorite Thich Naht Hahn!
the Dharma Seals were all introduced after Gautama Buddha died
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Dharma_Seals

Malcolm wrote:
No, this mistaken, the seals are given in different orders in Mahayana sutras, but they are present, I’ll give you a list tomorrow or next day.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 7:18 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:


Minobu said:
So like i thought the Buddha taught out loud stuff we termed theradavia .
then the Mahayana was instructed to various people through the means of Dharmakaya stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not what I mean. According to Mahāyāna tradition, the Mahāyāna Sūtra were collected by Mañjuśṛī and Samantabhadra. Ānanda's secret identity is Samantabhadra Bodhisattva.

Mahāyāna teachings arose at the same time as Hinayāna teachings, but because no one could understand them, they were cached away. This is the traditional point of view.

Of course, if people wish to believe whatever text critical scholars are saying today (and that will change tomorrow), they are welcome to it.


Minobu said:
ok but when you say this No, that is not what I mean. According to Mahāyāna tradition, the Mahāyāna Sūtra were collected by Mañjuśṛī and Samantabhadra. Ānanda's secret identity is Samantabhadra Bodhisattva.
Are these  not Dharmakaya mythology characters?



or do you have archaeological or what ever stuff like records that these people wandered around our earth..like 2500 years ago?
Which is where I was at in these quotes.

Malcolm wrote:
We don’t even have actual evidence that the Buddha is a historical person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Dan74 said:
And no way in the US 99% of the cases are harmless. No, that's just wrong. If I had to make a wild stab in the dark guess, I'd say 60-75% are harmless.

Malcolm wrote:
That is definitely a stone thrown in the dark. We do not know.

And of course today, it is coming out that immunity to covid may be temporary, which bodes quite ill for controlling this illness.

Pero said:
Actually as far as I can remember several random studies in the EU showed that the majority (95%+) of the cases are asymptomatic. In my country it was around 97%. This reduces the mortality rate a lot. Not sure it matters much though due to the seemingly high infectiousness. 5% is a lot of people when we're possibly talking about billions of people.

But it is also questionable if the disease is harmless if you don't have any symptoms. I remember reading that there were lung changes detectable by x-ray even in asymptomatic people.


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, there are two kinds of "asymptomatic:" Presymptomatic and truly asymptomatic.

And since covid immunity wears off, so it seems, people can be reinfected, and we do not know the consequences for reinfected people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: in defense
Content:


clyde said:
There’s the criticism that Western Zen and Western Zen teachers aren’t as good (awakened, skillful, etc.) as the “good ole’ days” in the East and that these are the “Dharma-ending days”, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
That was stated by Matylda, a Japanese woman raised in a Soto Zen family, and a translator who has translated for many Zen teachers in Japan. Not only does she think that Zen in West is 99% bunk, she thinks Japanese Zen is in late stage senescence. However, she hardly sounds happy about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:



Astus said:
That is a bit ambiguous. For instance, the term hinayana is used by mahayana in order to distinguish itself, and since these terms depend on each other, like low and high, they cannot exist separately.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, hence, they arose at the same time.

Minobu said:
So like i thought the Buddha taught out loud stuff we termed theradavia .
then the Mahayana was instructed to various people through the means of Dharmakaya stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not what I mean. According to Mahāyāna tradition, the Mahāyāna Sūtra were collected by Mañjuśṛī and Samantabhadra. Ānanda's secret identity is Samantabhadra Bodhisattva.

Mahāyāna teachings arose at the same time as Hinayāna teachings, but because no one could understand them, they were cached away. This is the traditional point of view.

Of course, if people wish to believe whatever text critical scholars are saying today (and that will change tomorrow), they are welcome to it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Kanye West announces POTUS run
Content:
Dan74 said:
QQ, I don't think you've really understood what I tried to say. I will have to go and scratch my head a bit to see why I am failing to communicate.

Queequeg said:
How about summarizing your point in one sentence?

Dan74 said:
If you focus on what truly matters, there is a great deal of common ground among the people right across society. Don't let the bastards fool you!

Malcolm wrote:
I focus on what truly matters, and there is a huge gulf between myself and anyone who, at this point, is willing to vote for Trump.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 4:54 AM
Title: Re: Kanye West announces POTUS run
Content:


DharmaN00b said:
In other words people have lost all trust in politicians and news. They're taking the piss, so we're now in a position where the only reliable source of information are the comedians...

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no. Newspapers of record are still reliable sources of information. They practice journalism, which is something that comedians do not practice. Just because there are many fools out there who rely on "News Corporation" for their news, well...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Dan74 said:
And no way in the US 99% of the cases are harmless. No, that's just wrong. If I had to make a wild stab in the dark guess, I'd say 60-75% are harmless.

Malcolm wrote:
That is definitely a stone thrown in the dark. We do not know.

And of course today, it is coming out that immunity to covid may be temporary, which bodes quite ill for controlling this illness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 8th, 2020 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mahayana arose at the same time as Hinayana.

Astus said:
That is a bit ambiguous. For instance, the term hinayana is used by mahayana in order to distinguish itself, and since these terms depend on each other, like low and high, they cannot exist separately.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, hence, they arose at the same time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 7:16 PM
Title: Re: Age of Mahayana Schools
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mahayana arose at the same time as Hinayana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 7:14 PM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Absence of the fire element feels cold. Absence of the earth element results in hunger and lightness. Absence of the water element results in thirst, etc. It is not hard to suss out.

Grigoris said:
That is what I thought.  Which is why I am asking:   Why reference a seperate specific physical factor for the task?

Malcolm wrote:
These are the sense objects of the body indriya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 7:10 PM
Title: Re: Kanye West announces POTUS run
Content:
Dan74 said:
I can't speak for tkp67, but there is a radical middle ground that is very rarely taken. And that's the rejection that one must necessarily align oneself with this side or that. Admitting that both sides lie and behave dishonourably, which does not equate to moral equivalence (before one jumps to that conclusion). That both sides have been playing the people for a long time. That jumping to conclusions, broad-brushing and striving to demolish one's opponent should give place to listening and finding a common ground to build upon.

One of the reasons that Trump won, it seems to me, was the duplicitous way both sides have played the public for years. Instead of addressing entrenched poverty, lack of basic services (like the healthcare), real inequities and deep systemic suffering, they threw the masses the culture war issues to fight over. Transgender bathrooms. Wedge issues. Divide and conquer.

Trump capitalised on that with his three-pronged platform of anti-corruption (drain the swamp), bring back the jobs and yes, the culture wars, including the best part -  xenophobia, white insecurity and disenfranchisement by a large section of voters.

People take the bait and the Machine trundles on. People like Bernie or Andrew Yang who focus on real issues, don't make it, because it is not about that. That a politician or his/her program have a visceral appeal should be a cause of alarm. Instead in the US, it seems to be a prerequisite. Because it is basically showbiz.

It's an obvious thing to say I take it, but being a good campaigner and being a good administrator have precious little to do with one another. They are almost opposites.

It seems to me that your entire system needs a thorough overhaul. From the divisive press to the nonsense campaign. But it has to start with education. With kids learning critical thinking at schools. Logical fallacies. Evidence-based reasoning. Emotional and psychological manipulation. Mass hysteria. Holding those driving the public discourse accountable for what they say. Truly. A lie and you should hang your head in shame. Yes, bring back shame.

Malcolm wrote:
Um no, Trump lost by 4 million votes. He won the electoral college by a fluke.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: Kanye West announces POTUS run
Content:



PeterC said:
I also don't understand what you're arguing for.  It is anything but clarity.

If you could you simplify it to practical questions like: who should we vote for? What policies should we support? - then we might be able to have a conversation.

I don't like the way you use terms like "middle way", "reasonable position" etc. as if there's some natural law that makes compromise the best choice. If someone wants to kill people, and another person doesn't, the compromise position of "let's just kill a few people" isn't better than either of those "polarities".  Some ideas are simply right or wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
But imagine if he were elected...DC as a James Turrell light installation ...

PeterC said:
I'll settle for the biden/trump/west presidential debate. That will be a moment for the history books. The schizophrenic rapper and sneaker designer will be the most articulate and richest person on the stage.

Malcolm wrote:
Touché.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 9:42 AM
Title: Re: Academic books on Mahayana thought
Content:
Jon N said:
Hello all.

First, I didn't know if this topic was more appropiate for this forum or for the academic discussion forum. Since what I'm asking might interest newcommers to Buddhism (I'm more or less one of them) I decided to post here. Feel free to move this topic to the academic forum or any other forum if you think it belongs there.

I would like to study the history of Mahayana and Vajrayana thought. This means books that cover the history of Buddhist thought from Madhyamaka to Yogacara and Vajrayana Buddhism. I'm interested in covering from Nagarjuna to Tsongkhapa especially, but I wouldn't mind to learn the development of Tibetan Buddhism up until the Rimé movement or even the XXth century. I am currently following the Karma Kagyu linage, so if there are books that include the development of Buddhist thought from Nagarjuna up to the Karma Kagyu (including schools that pre-date the Kagyu but are part of its lineage, like the Kadampa), that would be perfect. But a general perspective on Tibetan Buddhism would be appreaciated. I also don't mind if chapters about East Asian Buddhism like Tientai or Chan are included, as long as Tibetan Buddhism is well covered.

I already know and have read "Mahayana Buddhism: The Doctrinal Foundations" by Paul Williams. It is very similar to what I'm looking for, but I would like to get deeper into the different authors and masters than this book does.

I'm not expecting to find a single book covering all of this in depth, so if you can suggest me several books, each for a different school/period, that would be ok.

Lastly, I don't mind to read "popular" or divulgative books, but what I am looking for right now is academic books similar to those by Paul Williams. I majored in philosophy and I'm used to get deep into the ideas.

Thanks a lot for your attention, best wishes to all and I hope someone can come up with some good book recommendations!

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008D30MMW/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0

https://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Renaissance-Tantric-Buddhism-Rebirth-ebook/dp/B008D2TOE0/ref=sr_1_3?

dchild=1&qid=1594086108&refinements=p_27%3ARonald+Davidson&s=digital-text&sr=1-3&text=Ronald+Davidson


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
thepea said:
White House declares 99% of cases are harmless, perhaps health care is aware of this so only swabbing severe symptomatic people properly.
Make sure numbers stay up but also hospitalizations numbers as well.
Fear fear fear.

PeterC said:
If you're listening to the white house's advice on this, or indeed on anything, you are a fool.

Malcolm wrote:
Seconded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 9:36 AM
Title: Re: Kanye West announces POTUS run
Content:
tkp67 said:
John I am suggesting moderation in terms of separatist conditioning in our country is right view.

The forces seeking polarity are so pervasive it is assumed that anything but is still a reasonable position.

I am willing to make the argument that a number of humanitarian teachings not just buddhism promote good will and compassion as a foundation not as conditional and any time that is deviated from it is wrong view.

I am not suggest anyone is holding these views even if their statements are interpreted that way. That is the point of clarity here.


PeterC said:
I also don't understand what you're arguing for.  It is anything but clarity.

If you could you simplify it to practical questions like: who should we vote for? What policies should we support? - then we might be able to have a conversation.

I don't like the way you use terms like "middle way", "reasonable position" etc. as if there's some natural law that makes compromise the best choice. If someone wants to kill people, and another person doesn't, the compromise position of "let's just kill a few people" isn't better than either of those "polarities".  Some ideas are simply right or wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
But imagine if he were elected...DC as a James Turrell light installation ...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 6:44 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors
Content:
Grigoris said:
Here is another point that I forgot:  One of the types of tangibles is coldness.

How does this differ from the role of the Mahabhuta Fire?  Surely this determines temperature and not some seperate tangible?

Malcolm wrote:
Absence of the fire element feels cold. Absence of the earth element results in hunger and lightness. Absence of the water element results in thirst, etc. It is not hard to suss out.

And you are jumping ahead. This is all in verse 10.

Think of all of this as a filing cabinet. You will gradually have all this filled in, but not all at once.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
seeker242 said:
to claim that a person who has reached the 8th or 9th Bhumi, or the equivalent or whatever other scale that is used, to claim that that person would not be worthy of being called a zen master, or to claim that this would still somehow still be unsatisfactory, I just don't see how that is reasonable.

Astus said:
There is no such claim. The claim is that Zen transmits the very mind of the Buddha, that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself.

seeker242 said:
Yes there is such a claim. If the original claim is "that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself" that is no different than saying "9th bhumi still just isn't good enough" since 9th bhumi, is by definition, not the same as Buddha himself.

Malcolm wrote:
Neither is the 10th, since the stage of buddhahood is the 11th, in sūtrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 3: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Three types of Abhidharma
Content:
Grigoris said:
So are all practices merely for the sake of perfecting discernment?

Queequeg said:
That's what it seems to say. Discerning the factors, relieves the defilements. Relieving the defilements releases people from samsara.

The echo of the 4NT is there.

PeterC said:
Is it saying that all practices lead to this; or is it saying that any practices aside from the discernment of the factors, though they may be helpful at a relative level, do not lead to liberation?  By implication - that one could achieve liberation purely through intellectual analysis?

Malcolm wrote:
The question of practices for liberation are taken up in vol. 3, chapter 6, The Path. We are light years from that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, July 7th, 2020 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
reiun said:
If you understood the experience of passing Mu, the traditional first koan in a course of koan study, you could never say such a thing.

Matylda said:
First i base my opinions on my own work when I had to interpret for foreigners
second it comes from my own questions to teachers and monks whom I could ask and got the clear answer
third, the critique of modern koan study, lack of samadhi power and kensho experience is made also by contemporary rinzai teachers in Japan, who express their concern about the level of zazen practice
so I think that the source is reliable and I have no doubt about what they say


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors
Content:
Grigoris said:
[Answer:] - Without a doubt, the monad is free from rupana; but a single material
form as a monad (paramanurupa) never exists in an isolated state [prthak]; 186
[however,] in the state of a composite (samghatastha), i.e., being in aggregation, it is susceptible to deterioration and to offering resistance.
Wait on.  Is the monad subject to deterioration is is it the composite that breaks down into monads?
[

Malcolm wrote:
It is saying that composites formed of atoms are susceptible to breaking down.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors
Content:
Grigoris said:
Difference between the elementary substance earth & earth, etc.; 178 F 23-24
What is the difference between the elementary substance earth fprfhivfdhiitu] and
earth [prthivf], between the elementary substance water [abdhiitu] and water [ap], etc?
13. In common usage [lokasa.,,,jiiii], the word earth signifies [actually]
color and shape; the same for [the common usage of the words]
water and fire, [i.e., they signify actually color and shape]. [The
common usage of the word] wind [signifies] either the elementary
substance wind, or else, color and shape.
So when referring to Mahabhuta we are talking about qualities, but in common usage we are referring to something describing a particular colour and shape.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because the elements themselves are composed of all four elements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Avijnapti is created by taking vows. The discussIon of it is pursued at length in the karma chapter.
The non-informative ( avijnapti);

11. [Vaibhii~ikas:] - Even in a person whose thought is distracted, or
who is [for a certain time] without thought, there exists a serial
continuity, good or bad, in reliance upon the fundamental material
elements: that, indeed, is what is called non-informative.

Grigoris said:
How does this differ from the bhavanga citta of the Abhidhamma?

How can this be a wholesome or unwholesome mind state, if there is no attention (and thus no motivation) involved?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s a kind of matter, not mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 6:59 PM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 9: Threefold Classification of the Factors
Content:
Grigoris said:
Matter or material form is (1-5) the five sense-faculties, (6-10) the
five object-referents [or object-fields of the five sense-faculties],
arid (11) the non-informative.
So matter/material form is the five sense organs (eyes, ears, tongue, body and nose) and their objects (visual, aural, gustatory, bodily and olfactory sensations).  It seems though that "indriya" does not refer just to the physical sense organs, but to the related sense consciousness as well, to the process of sensing.

As for 11.  The endnote says:
The SA.IV.Glossary.520 describes them as follows:
avijnapti-rupa: Non-informative matter. This is a special type of matter (rupa)
which constitutes a non-informative action (avijnapti-karma). It is non-resistant and
invisible, and comes into existence in dependence on the force of a volition (cetana),
an informative action and a set of great elements (mahabhuta). It is a special type of
derived matter (upadaya-rupa) which is not comprised of atoms (paramanu).
avijnapti-karma: Non-informative action. Unlike an informative action (vijnapti
karma) which informs us of the mental state of the doer, this is a karmic force which,
once projected by a bodily or vocal action (karma), continues to exist as a series
invisibly; hence, non-informative.
Clear as mud, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Avijnapti is created by taking vows. The discussIon of it is pursued at length in the karma chapter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 2:15 AM
Title: Re: Basis for vipaka being individual
Content:


GrapeLover said:
Apologies; I didn’t mean to imply that the clap and its sound were actually karmic cause and effect. I just meant to try and metaphorically illustrate the Kegon view of a karmic net through which effects can ‘resonate’ (similar to a sound wave resonating through air) versus a mindstream from which karmic effects cannot escape (like a sound wave failing to escape a chamber).

Malcolm wrote:
Karmic effects only ripen on the continuum that performed the action. There is no means by which it can cause some sort of resonance. For example, I shoot a man. Of course that action affects that man, but let's say he survives, my nonvirtuous act does not ripen on him. It will only ripen on me in the future. It is possible that my motivation for shooting this person is based on a past interaction with this man, but showing such relationships is beyond the range of ordinary mortals. We can only deal with this life's virtues and nonvirtues which govern our karma and its results in the next life.


GrapeLover said:
In the latter case, it seemed to imply that the body must be within the mindstream, as karma vipaka can physically affect it but is held not to be capable of affecting other phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
The  body is not "held" within the mindstream; one's continuum includes both mind and body. A karma is initiated by the mind and carried out by the body in the form of physical and speech acts.

GrapeLover said:
Thanks a lot for putting the time in to explain.

I think my sticking point is along the lines of—for instance, breaking samaya is held to harm one’s vajra siblings due to the strength of the interdependence of having been empowered into the same mandala.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no basis for this idea. The idea is that it harms the guru.


GrapeLover said:
I basically feel like, to some weak and minuscule degree, such interdependence must be kind of all-pervasive among beings, in terms of all beings having been your mother etc. So I guess I’m thinking along those lines, basically, like the unknowable relationships you mention.

Malcolm wrote:
That is based on mano a mano interactions over countless lifetimes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Are all phenomena equally empty in Madhyamaka?
Content:
akuppa said:
My problem is that it seems from a Madhyamaka point of view belief that a Self exists is equally wrong as belief that the consciousness aggregate arises and ceases based on causes and conditions (the dhamma theory). So the early Buddhist schools are just as misguided as non-Buddhists?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, from the Madhyamaka perspective, the idea that a real consciousness arises and falls based on real causes and conditions is an error. Consciousness itself cannot be a pāramārtha dharma because it is compounded, impermanent, empty, and not truly established.



Astus said:
In the various discussions of the two truths.

'The conventional has two aspects: one that is mistaken and one that is correct. The former is twofold: the moon [reflected on] water and the conceptions of bad doctrines.
Something that is pleasing only as long as it is not examined, which arises and ceases to exist'
(Entry into the Two Realities by Atisa, in Jewels of the Middle Way, p 119)

akuppa said:
So from the Madhyamaka pov it is more correct to say that consciousness arises and ceases than to say a self exists. If both are empty, how can this be the case? What kind of logic is used to assert this?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not more correct to say consciousness arises or ceases than a labelled self, a since consciousness is also a conventional label, like the label "self." Prior to analysis there is both a self, akuppa, and a consciousness. After analysis one will find neither self nor consciousness, beyond the designations "akuppa" and "consciousness." For example, take a car as a metaphor for "self". A car cannot be found in any part, all of its parts, or separate from its parts. Likewise, as self cannot be found in any aggregates, all of the aggregates, or apart from the aggregates. Likewise, consciousness cannot be found in the sense organ nor the sense object, both, or separate from them. The mind is also made of parts, and cannot be found in one of them, all of them, or separate from them.

Functionally speaking, we can say there is a self, because when I say "akuppa go there!" You will respond to this directive by saying yes or no. This means that "self" is functional. It is efficient. Whatever is functional corresponds with relative truth. If I said to you, "Malcolm go there!" you would respond, "I am not Malcolm." So calling you "malcolm" is not functional and therefore cannot be considered to be relatively true. Consciousness is a relative truth, as long as it performs its functions, then we can say "there is a consciousness." But when we analyze consciousness, we cannot find it outside of the conventions we use for an appearance we label "mind."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Basis for vipaka being individual
Content:


GrapeLover said:
Apologies; I didn’t mean to imply that the clap and its sound were actually karmic cause and effect. I just meant to try and metaphorically illustrate the Kegon view of a karmic net through which effects can ‘resonate’ (similar to a sound wave resonating through air) versus a mindstream from which karmic effects cannot escape (like a sound wave failing to escape a chamber).

Malcolm wrote:
Karmic effects only ripen on the continuum that performed the action. There is no means by which it can cause some sort of resonance. For example, I shoot a man. Of course that action affects that man, but let's say he survives, my nonvirtuous act does not ripen on him. It will only ripen on me in the future. It is possible that my motivation for shooting this person is based on a past interaction with this man, but showing such relationships is beyond the range of ordinary mortals. We can only deal with this life's virtues and nonvirtues which govern our karma and its results in the next life.


GrapeLover said:
In the latter case, it seemed to imply that the body must be within the mindstream, as karma vipaka can physically affect it but is held not to be capable of affecting other phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
The  body is not "held" within the mindstream; one's continuum includes both mind and body. A karma is initiated by the mind and carried out by the body in the form of physical and speech acts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club
Content:
Queequeg said:
Yep. We have no schedule so let's take it as slow as we need. There will probably be sections that don't need to much discuy and some will need a lot.

Awesome job so far, Greg.

Malcolm wrote:
It would be wise to avoid some of the debates, and aim principally at grasping the Sarvastivada view, and Sautrantika critique.

Queequeg said:
I think that's where we'll lean on you to put up the guardrails and keep the discussion on track.

Malcolm wrote:
One thing that is a little confusing for some, is that Vasubandhu seems to let the Sarvastivadins win some of the time, though not often.

I personally think Vasubandhu was always a Mahāyāni.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Are all phenomena equally empty in Madhyamaka?
Content:


akuppa said:
Yes, historical Madhyamaka does not directly critique Theravada Abhidamma as far as I know.

Malcolm wrote:
It critiques as least one Vibhajyavādin theory of karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Are all phenomena equally empty in Madhyamaka?
Content:
akuppa said:
My problem is that it seems from a Madhyamaka point of view belief that a Self exists is equally wrong as belief that the consciousness aggregate arises and ceases based on causes and conditions (the dhamma theory). So the early Buddhist schools are just as misguided as non-Buddhists?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, from the Madhyamaka perspective, the idea that a real consciousness arises and falls based on real causes and conditions is an error. Consciousness itself cannot be a pāramārtha dharma because it is compounded, impermanent, empty, and not truly established.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, July 6th, 2020 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Basis for vipaka being individual
Content:
GrapeLover said:
Hi there,

Though there is some variation between schools, it is typically taught that the consequences/vipaka of karma ripen on the individual that generated that karma alone.

What I do not really understand is that, as far as I know, it is the volition aggregate that generates karma, but other aggregates are involved in experiencing the vipaka (eg the body can become diseased). As the aggregates are merely strongly interdependent rather than being “the same thing” even on a conventional level, and interdependence extends beyond the aggregates, what is the basis for the “overflow” effect of vipaka being limited to the individual?

Malcolm wrote:
Mind streams are individual, that’s all.

GrapeLover said:
That is fair enough. How is the mindstream held to affect the body, in terms of eg developing a disease at some point due to a karmic seed? It seems like the body would have to be "inside" the mindstream and everything else outside it, in order for individual mindstreams to explain things fully.

Malcolm wrote:
The body and mind are inseparable, like a flower and its scent.

GrapeLover said:
What I basically mean is that (sorry for the silly analogy)—if I clap my hands outside and it can’t be heard a mile away, that is because the ‘force’ of the clap isn’t sufficient, even though there is interconnection between the two areas and the clap can be heard to some extent for a fair distance. This AFAIK would be a broad parallel to a Kegon-style illustration of effects resonating out, but being stronger at the ‘epicentre’.

On the other hand, if I clapped in a soundproof chamber and it couldn’t be heard outside, this is basically because there isn’t even interconnection or the potential for the sound to travel outside at all. If this is like how mindstreams are, then the body would seem to need to be “inside” the chamber of the mindstream in order for karma to affect it, while other phenomena are outside.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you have not properly studied the doctrine of karma. See chapter 4, Abhidharmakośabhaṣya.

Karma is not simple cause and effect, though is is often misrepresented this way. Karma is moral cause and effect, which determines happy and unhappy states of existence.

In Abhidharmakośabhaṣya, simple cause and effect are presented first in the section on the six causes and four conditions described in chapter 2. Then comes dependent origination, chapter 3; and after that karma and its results, chapter 4.

Your example is an instance of simple cause and effect, but this is not karmic cause and effect. For example, one of the reasons I never found Huayen and Tiantai particularly profound with all their talk of interpenetration, mutuality and so on, is that this is already covered in the Sarvāstivādin kāraṇa-hetu. This means that all things are automatically the cause of all other things apart from themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:


reiun said:
Especially under the circumstance when the student is in the room with the teacher, and the student passes Mu and has that "bottom drops out" moment,

Matylda said:
this drama does not happen anymore, bottom dropping out - it comes from very old texts of Chinese masters who came over to Japan in Kamakura era. today it is much less dramatic, since the power of practice is very weak in comparison with the oldies. Today it is enough to have just some intuition and there is another koan to go. we forgot that zen practice is for complete liberation, and there are many signs of it.
and the gaze is locked, then we can talk about another kind of senseless.
no. this would be another pitfall

reiun said:
Your opinion is misinformed and contradicted by direct contemporary experiences.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club
Content:
Queequeg said:
Yep. We have no schedule so let's take it as slow as we need. There will probably be sections that don't need to much discuy and some will need a lot.

Awesome job so far, Greg.

Malcolm wrote:
It would be wise to avoid some of the debates, and aim principally at grasping the Sarvastivada view, and Sautrantika critique.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Prostrations as a stand alone practice
Content:


Könchok Thrinley said:
Are prostrations a stand alone practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: Basis for vipaka being individual
Content:
GrapeLover said:
It’s often said that the individual who produces certain karma is the (only) one who will experience the consequence of that karma ripening.

White Sakura said:
That is the teaching on the level of the relative truth.
Do not mix it with teachings that analyze the self and that come to the conclusion that there is no inherently existing self.

GrapeLover said:
Yeah, I’m basically looking to contrast this with the Kegon/Huayan view, which essentially holds that karmic effects do extend beyond the individual, even relatively.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an incorrect view of karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Basis for vipaka being individual
Content:
GrapeLover said:
Hi there,

Though there is some variation between schools, it is typically taught that the consequences/vipaka of karma ripen on the individual that generated that karma alone.

What I do not really understand is that, as far as I know, it is the volition aggregate that generates karma, but other aggregates are involved in experiencing the vipaka (eg the body can become diseased). As the aggregates are merely strongly interdependent rather than being “the same thing” even on a conventional level, and interdependence extends beyond the aggregates, what is the basis for the “overflow” effect of vipaka being limited to the individual?

Malcolm wrote:
Mind streams are individual, that’s all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 9:06 AM
Title: Re: How awakened are bodhisattva stream-entrants?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The answer, according to Candrakīrti, is that their realization of emptiness is the same, in so far as they both realize the absence of inherent existence.

Caoimhghín said:
Awkwardly split from https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=33826&p=541115#p541104

The topic has another question hidden in it: How does the śrāvaka stream-entrant differ in his realization from the bodhisattva stream-entrant other than the former theoretically missing the foundations of bodhicitta?
So by your logic, all stream-entrants are awakened as well. Stream-entrants are significantly beneath Arhats. I thought the stream-entrant only makes contact once with nirvāṇa as a mental object, and doesn't abide in it with life substratum.

Aemilius said:
Stream entrants are Aryas, the first stage of it. I wonder where has all the knowledge about them disappeared?

ārya-saṃgha (Sanskrit, noble community). The community of the āryas or those ‘noble persons’ (ārya-pudgala) who have attained the supermundane path (ārya-mārga). This is the Saṃgha referred to in the formula of the three refuges (triśaraṇa), and is distinct from the broader Buddhist community including laymen and laywomen.
Source
：
A Dictionary of Buddhism, Oxford University Press, 2003, 2004 (which is available in electronic version from answer.com)

ārya-pudgala (Sanskrit; Pāli, ariya-puggala). A ‘noble person’, one who is at any stage of the Noble Path (ārya-mārga). There are four such persons, namely the stream-winner (śrotāpanna), the once-returner (sakṛdāgāmin), the non-returner (anāgāmin) and the Arhat. According to an alternative sevenfold grouping found in Pāli sources individuals enter the Noble Path in different ways according to their personal disposition. In terms of this the noble disciples are classified as: (1) one who follows in faith (saddhā-anusārin); (2) one liberated by faith (saddhā-vimutta); (3) one who witnesses with the body (kāya-sakkhi); (4) one liberated both ways (ubhato-bhāga-vimutta); (5) one who follows in the Dharma (dhamma-anusārin); (6) one who has attained to vision (diṭṭhippatta); (7) one liberated by insight (paññā-vimutta). Thus the Noble Path may be attained through faith (as with the first), or through an intellectual grasp of the teachings (as with the fifth). One may also enter it and reach fruition on the basis of both (as with the fourth).



There is quite a lot in the Abhidharma about this under various headings, like the Eight noble persons (arya pudgala) etc...

Caoimhghín said:
I'm aware that they are the first persons of the path, but I'm not sure if those who are less than Arhats count as "awakened" without any significant caveats. The once-returner, for instance, is not necessarily awakened, but will be in the future. He only has a partial awakening. It would be odd for a stream-entrant to have superior realization than the once-returner yet to once return.

Aemilius said:
The classification is at first quite simple, and then more and more evolved and complex, in the Sutras and Abhidharma.
A stream entrant has maximum 7 rebirths left before Arhatship. These seven can take place in different ways, so we get more different stream entrants. 1.The stream entrants can be faith followers or wisdom followers, or a yogic type (body witness) this exists but is interpreted differently or it is simply "forgotten". One can also change type in the course of the seven or less births.
2.  Are only births on Earth (or Jambudvipa) counted, or are births in other realms, on other continents or other planets equally valid ?? Etc...


You can compare the Aryas with the systems of Noblity and Aristocrats, that have existed in many many  parts of the world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility

Caoimhghín said:
I agree it's complex, but it does strike me as odd that the once-returner with his partial awakening as an unripened wisdom that only completely fruits later would be less awakened than the stream-entrant with his seven lifetimes until arhatva. Of course, bodhisattva stream-entry does not result in seven lifetimes until arhatva.

Arguably one of the reasons why the stream-entrant is called a stream-entrant is because he has merely "entered the stream" to awakening. His seven lifetimes, or dare we say his three aeons, are the consequence of that entrance then, at least seven to make it up the stream to "the other shore" in the case of the path as the Buddha outlined it to the śrāvakas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, July 5th, 2020 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?
Content:
Aemilius said:
...
In entering the stream therein is found no dharma or concept of "entering the stream".

SteRo said:
it´s like jumping from one patch of space in space to next patch of space in space. Nothing is entered. nothing left behind, so only sravakas enter from one illusion into another.

Malcolm wrote:
Facile, at best. The old "It's all emptiness dude" retort.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Ngondro Practice
Content:
RafaelCoutinho said:
Hello!

So I want to start my Ngondro Practice soon, what items should I buy? I already, have a bell and a vajra, a damaru, a mala, and these things. But I don't have a Mandala, should I buy one?

Thank you!

Malcolm wrote:
Eventually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 10:10 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:



Matylda said:
I just did it.

Malcolm wrote:
If I am ever in Japan, I’m inviting You to dinner at your favorite restaurant.

Matylda said:
but you cannot afford it

Malcolm wrote:
Don’t be so sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?
Content:


NateLeo said:
So i want to know: what exactly is the first, most fundamental concept i need to realize first if i atleast want to reach the first stage of awakening in this life?
Thanks again!

SteRo said:
Stream Entry is a sravaka concept. The most fundamental concepts in that context are self-identity views, attachment to rites and rituals and doubt - these have to be abandoned.

Malcolm wrote:
The same three fetters are abandoned on the first bhumi, hence first stage bodhisattvas are Mahayana stream entrants.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?
Content:
SteRo said:
Stream Entry is a sravaka concept.

Grigoris said:
No it is not.  The first bhumi is the Mahayana equivalent of Sravakayana stream entry.

Malcolm wrote:
Greg is correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 10:32 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, there are Buddhist pudgalavādins, those who assert an inexpressible self that is neither the same nor different than aggregates. They were once the largest school in India.

Queequeg said:
Not to digress too far, but, how did they explain the continuity between death and rebirth? And what happened to them?

Malcolm wrote:
We refuted the shit out of them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 9:49 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
It is rather simple, but difficult to apprehend perhaps.
Then why don't you explain it?

Matylda said:
I just did it.

Malcolm wrote:
If I am ever in Japan, I’m inviting You to dinner at your favorite restaurant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is still just referring to a mind devoid of concepts. So, it still does not escape the criticism.

Astus said:
Not really the same. There are things, but there is no attachment to them. It's possible to match it with there being no longer the concept of self that puts concepts into a samsaric frame. A little more on "just as they are":

"At 360° all things are just as they are; the truth is just like  this. 'Like this'  means that there is no attachment  to anything. This point is exactly the same as the zero point: we arrive  where we  began, where we have always  been. The difference is that O° is attachment thinking,  while 360° is no-attachment thinking."
(Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, p 7)

Malcolm wrote:
So according to the definition above, this zero attachment thinking is not true emptiness, since it is thinking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Whats the most important concept to start with to atleast get Stream Entry?
Content:
NateLeo said:
So i want to know: what exactly is the first, most fundamental concept i need to realize first if i atleast want to reach the first stage of awakening in this life?

Malcolm wrote:
Find a teacher who can show you your real nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Starting with meditation: my case - Any suggestions?
Content:
Jon N said:
Hello dear forum.

After some years of studying Eastern and Buddhist thought in university and on my free time, I decided to approach a Sangha to receive teachings. Since I felt Tibetan Buddhism attracted me more, I decided to approach a Karma Kagyu center close to where I live. Sadly, right now, because of the coronavirus, they only teach online. Luckily, however, they had just started the Lojong lessons so I have been attending them online for 2 weeks now. The Lama asked us to meditate for one hour every day. Since this is the beginning of Lojong, and of meditation for many of us, she suggested that we should just try to relax in meditation position for one hour. However, I have found this extremely difficult. I have tried to do it with some relaxing music but it keeps being difficult. It is difficult for my eyes to look at the same place for a long time so I keep moving them. I try just to relax, but usually I manage to be relaxed only the first 10-15 minutes of the session. The rest of the hour is very hard. I have tried to shorten it for 40 minutes but it keeps being difficult. I try not to refuse my thoughts, but just try to be more or less comfortably relaxed, but I keep getting anxious and find it difficult to just be seated without doing nothing. The Lama said it can be difficult since a part of us doesn't want to meditate, and that we should keep trying until our mind gets used to it.

Do you guys have some tips/advice to give to me? I guess starting to meditate is difficult for most of the people, so I try not to be desperate about it. However, little by little I would like to see some progress. I have read for years about Buddhism and I feel it may be my path, but its not the same to read about it than to actually practice it, so even if I try not to desperate I can't help but be worried that because of finding meditation too difficult I might not be able to follow the path.

Thanks a lot for your time,

Jon

Malcolm wrote:
It'll pass. Just stick with it. Once you feel distracted look around, stretch, standup, then sit down and do it again. Short sessions, many times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Later, when the discussion of "partless atoms" comes up, you will see that atoms are irreducible.

Grigoris said:
I thought this concept was found only in Abhidhamma.

I believe that this is a slippery slope.  If you can have an irreducible physical particle on which all physical objects rely, then why can you not have an irreducible mind element (an atman) on which all consciousness relies?

Queequeg said:
I think for the same reason that you can't have atman in Abhidhamma - All 5 skandha are needed for a being to arise, and 4 of them are aspects of mind. Remove one, and there is no being. Which of the skandha would be that irreducible mind element?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there are Buddhist pudgalavādins, those who assert an inexpressible self that is neither the same nor different than aggregates. They were once the largest school in India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, July 4th, 2020 at 2:06 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Later, when the discussion of "partless atoms" comes up, you will see that atoms are irreducible.

Grigoris said:
I thought this concept was found only in Abhidhamma.

I believe that this is a slippery slope.  If you can have an irreducible physical particle on which all physical objects rely, then why can you not have an irreducible mind element (an atman) on which all consciousness relies?

Malcolm wrote:
Western Sarvastivadins (Gandharis) subscribed to an inexpressible person theory (pudgalavādin). This is rejected by Vaibhasikas (Kashmiris).

Partless particles are rejected by Sautrantikas. They favor partless moments as irreducible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Astus rejects utterly the notion of transmission, he always has. He thinks Dharma can be learned from books.

Astus said:
Dharma transmission in Zen is not about one person teaching another, but one person authorising another after that other has already mastered everything that had to be mastered.

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty sure Meido would not agree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)
Content:
Queequeg said:
Malcolm, as we approach this text from a Mahayana perspective, what should our disposition be toward the irreducible dharmas in the Sarvasitvadin view?

Also, is it possible to give us a quick and dirty comparison of Sarvastivadin, Vaibhasika, and Sautrantika views, and how we as Mahayanis should approach them?

Malcolm wrote:
The four tenet systems can be reduced to these four axioms:

atoms
moments
mind
emptiness.

These is the barest essence of the four tenet systems in ascending order.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)
Content:
Queequeg said:
Malcolm, as we approach this text from a Mahayana perspective...

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is important NOT to approach this text from a Mahāyāna point of view.

One should attempt to emulate the ancient Indian masters, Buddhist and Hindu, approaching a text from its own point of view while learning it, and save the higher tenet system critiques for later.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:


PeterC said:
...so then I don’t need to respond in detail to your other points, because if you reject the lineage view of a continuous transmission, you’ve also discarded the premise that transmission implies qualification as a teacher, surely?  You said supra:


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Astus rejects utterly the notion of transmission, he always has. He thinks Dharma can be learned from books.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:



seeker242 said:
Is 40 years long?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends, some people’s 40 years are longer than others.

seeker242 said:
The length isn't relevant. It was a example of the intensity of practicing.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that was the point of my pointing out that some people's 40 years are longer than others. On the other hand, effort does not lead to awakening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 7: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)
Content:
Grigoris said:
Extensive exposition of the conditioned factors (samskrta)

the conditioned factors are the fivefold aggregates:
material form, etc.
The skandha. Etymological meaning of samskrta
"that which has been
made (krta) by causes or conditions [pratyaya] co-existing in assemblage (sametya,
sambhuya)".
So far, so good. "that which has been made ... ", also
applies (1) to future factors, (2) to present factors, as well as (3) to past factors; in
fact, a factor (dharma) does not change its nature or type [jatiyatvat] by changing
its time period.
Really?  So what happens when ice (solid) becomes water (liquid) and then evaporates as steam (gas)?  Is there not a change in type?

Malcolm wrote:
Later, when the discussion of "partless atoms" comes up, you will see that atoms are irreducible. However, states of matter such as solids, liquids, and gasses depend on the balance of the four elements in material entities and the environment. In other words, one has ice when it is cold, and when it is very hot, water evaporates into a gas.

But the atoms themselves, according to Abhidharma typology of the Sarvastivadins do not undergo change or alteration. The Sautrantikas, you will see, reject the notion of partless atoms because they have are also claimed to have sides, etc. It is important to keep in mind that the root verses present a version of Sarvastivadin doctrine, that of the Vaibhāsikas. The commentaries mainly critiques these positions from the Sautrantika position.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:



seeker242 said:
Which I think is ridiculous assumption really because several of the western laypeople teachers I have met have been practicing for 40 years and have done practices like 100 day solo retreats, etc, etc. To characterize this as "in one's spare time, without tremendous sacrifice" is a gross mischaracterization.

Malcolm wrote:
A 100 day solo retreat is not very long.

seeker242 said:
Is 40 years long?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends, some people’s 40 years are longer than others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Matt J said:
Actually, what PeterC is saying isn't sectarian, but rather a response (in my mind anyway) to Western exceptionalism.

What we (as the West in general, not any particular poster) are saying is that what takes decades in Asian countries (which have incorporated dharma into their national culture) can easily be accomplished in the West in one's spare time, without tremendous sacrifice, and produce an equivalent degree of realization and teaching quality.

seeker242 said:
Which I think is ridiculous assumption really because several of the western laypeople teachers I have met have been practicing for 40 years and have done practices like 100 day solo retreats, etc, etc. To characterize this as "in one's spare time, without tremendous sacrifice" is a gross mischaracterization.

Malcolm wrote:
A 100 day solo retreat is not very long.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That is not what the citation says.

Astus said:
Right, it's not a full story, I just thought it fitting on the issue of comparison. Here's an extension on empty mind.

'True emptiness is before thinking. Before thinking is just like this. So life is only life; death is only death. You must not be attached to names and forms. It is like a clear mirror. In a clear mirror, all is nothing; there is only the clear mirror. Red comes, the mirror is red. Yellow comes, there is yellow. A woman comes, there is a woman. A man comes, there is a man. Death comes, there is death. Life comes, there is life. But all of these do not exist. The mirror does not hold on to anything. There is only the coming and the going. This is before thinking: all things are just as they are. The name for this mind is original pure mind.'
(Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, p 90)

Malcolm wrote:
This is still just referring to a mind devoid of concepts. So, it still does not escape the criticism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)
Content:
Grigoris said:
So while defiled consciousness can contact the factors of the Noble Path, it cannot be purified by them, nor can it defile the path factors?

Malcolm wrote:
All this is saying is that all compounded phenomena are defiled apart from path phenomena. They are abandoned, not purified. This is discussed in more detail in chapter 2, when we get to the twenty-two Indriyas.

Queequeg said:
I got the sense that the defilements do not adhere to the path precisely because the path is what defeats the defilements. Is that off base?

Malcolm wrote:
Path phenomena are the 8 indriyas of nirvana, faith, mindfulness, diligence, wisdom, and samadhi, etc. Or the thirty-seven factors conducive to awakening: the four foundations of mindfulness, the four true abandonments, the four magical abilities, the five powers, five strengths, the seven factors that lead to awakening and the eight-fold path.






Queequeg said:
Maybe related or not - in Theravada, I think this is why they need to posit a connecting consciousness - to connect two moments of mind when there is no input coming in from the six senses.

Malcolm wrote:
Non-analytical cessation is just the simple absence of a cause. Analytical cessation is cessation due to wisdom. The cause of the bhavanga consciousness is consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is not a very good answer. This kind of idea, the cessation of thinking, just results in more samsara.

Astus said:
That is right, aiming for and grasping at a thoughtless state at best takes one to a heavenly birth. But that was not the intended message, at least from my side. Rather that while there are methodical differences, when it comes to not conceptualising what is experienced, there are no distinctions that can be made.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not what the citation says.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 4-6: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Discernment of the Factors (Dharma)
Content:
Grigoris said:
Twofold Classification of Factors:  Impure (Sasrava) and Pure (Anasrava)

The conditioned factors, with the exception of the (noble) path, are
impure; they are impure because the fluxes adhere to or grow concordantly
in them [samanuserate].
So while defiled consciousness can contact the factors of the Noble Path, it cannot be purified by them, nor can it defile the path factors?

Malcolm wrote:
All this is saying is that all compounded phenomena are defiled apart from path phenomena. They are abandoned, not purified. This is discussed in more detail in chapter 2, when we get to the twenty-two Indriyas.


Grigoris said:
If space is not "turned away" by an object does that mean that space continues to exist independent of the fact of the presence (or absence) of an object?

Malcolm wrote:
It just means that space permeates everything.


Grigoris said:
Cessation due to deliberation (pratisarμkhyanirodha); 63 F 8-9
6ab. Cessation due to deliberation is disconnection [from the impure
factors], each disconnection taken separately...
...If it were otherwise, if the cessation due to deliberation were single, a person who
has obtained, i.e., realized, the cessation of the defilements [klesanirodha]
which are abandoned by insight into the truth of unsatisfactoriness would have
obtained or actualized at the same time the cessation of the defilements which are
abandoned by insight [darsana] into the other truths and by cultivation [bhavana],
[i.e., the cessation of all the defilements (sarvaklesa)]. It would be futile [vaiyarthya]
then for the practitioners to cultivate the part of the (noble) path which counteracts
these [remaining] defilements.
Interesting.  Does that mean that one has to eradicate each defilement seperately (which, according to different classification systems number from 3 to 108), that it is not enough to just strike at the ignorance underlying all of them?

Malcolm wrote:
According to this system, there are nine categories of afflictions to remove, from strong-strong to weak-weak. The strong-strong afflictions in stream enterer and so on, now latent, have to be removed gradually through analysis. This is largely the subject matter of chapter 6.

Grigoris said:
an example of this is the non-arising of visual consciousness due to the absence of visual stimuli.

But would this mean that being in a comatose state, for example, is akin to cessation?

Malcolm wrote:
Non analytical cessation is simply the absence of a cause which can bear a result, for example, a burnt seed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
PeterC said:
At this point I don’t think it’s a great idea to be taking medical advice from anyone in the US on this.  Most of the countries that have the outbreak under control had a treatment protocol months ago - as part of a coordinated treatment strategy, not the cottage industry we have in the US - and have had much lower case-based mortality.  I’m not going to give medical advice but if I wanted an idea of which drugs to take I would look at what they’re doing.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no drugs that are really that effective in treating Covid about which we have evidence-based knowledge.

PeterC said:
There’s a lot more work to do on the research, sure, but the opinion of the Thai, Korean, HK and Chinese hospitals coordinating treatment protocols is that they’ve got protocols that they’re happy with.

Malcolm wrote:
There is still no drug that seems to dent this thing. Their protocols focus on symptom relief. That's great, but not a solution.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 2: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Three types of Abhidharma
Content:
Grigoris said:
Okay.  WTF?  Is he saying that dependently arisen objects have inherent characteristics?

jake said:
There is a long end note on this from page 322-324 that I had to read a couple times. But I understood the "inherent characteristics" to be those characteristics that are indivisible from the entity itself. The example given is the color (sorry, colour) blue, this is unique to that dharma. Blue also belongs to a group of dharmas that share a common characteristic, in this case they can be seen.

I'm not sure I follow the "dependently arise objects have inherent characteristics" question.

Grigoris said:
And yet science shows us that if you do not have the corresponding rods and cones (sensory apparatus of the eye) then blue is not blue for you.

So how can it be an inherent characteristic when it is dependently arisen?

Malcolm wrote:
"Inherent" is really the wrong word here. "Intrinsic" is a little better. In this case, a blue entity possesses the physical properties to reflect blue light, whether one can see it or not. That entity dependently arises in possession of that property. While that entity exists, one of its intrinsic characteristics is to reflect blue light. Intrinsic characteristics do not conflict with dependent origination in Sarvastivada and Sautrantika tenets.

Also "ultimate" in Abdhidharma simply means the cognition left over after one has smashed or analyzed something as far as one can go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: AKB, Ch. 1, Ver. 2: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Three types of Abhidharma
Content:
Grigoris said:
Abhidharma in the absolute sense: pure understanding
Understanding (prajna), is the discernment
of factors [dharmapravicaya].
Pravicaya is the Sanskrit term for discernment and refers to the ability to distinguish pure from impure, material from immaterial, etc... 2b. [The Abhidharma] is also any understanding and the Treatise which
make one obtain stainless understanding.
...the impure (sasrava) understanding, whether it is
i. innate or natural or acquired at birth
ii-iv. derived from an effort, i.e., from listening, reflection, cultivation
By innate I imagine it is referring to it being a consequence of past effort.  I assume this as it is talking about impure understanding and thus cannot be referring to some sort of internal stainless basis/quality.

We also clearly see here that prajna (unafflicted knowledge) is also based on personal effort and study the Treatise also makes one obtain the pure understanding...
Thus studying the text... Etymological explanation of dharma and abhi-dharma
[Etymologically,] dharma signifies: that which upholds or sustains (dharana) its own
characteristic or a particular inherent characteristic (svalaksana).

The Abhidharma is called abhi-dharma because it is directed...
1. toward the supreme factor [paramarthadharma], namely, Nirvana
2. toward the characteristics of the factors [dharmalaksana], namely, (i) the
particular inherent characteristics or specific characteristics [svalaksana]
and (ii) the common characteristics [samanyalaksana].
Okay.  WTF?  Is he saying that dependently arisen objects have inherent characteristics?

Malcolm wrote:
In this literature, intrinsic characteristics are real and ultimate, the example given later is the wetness, coolness and limpidity of water. Generic characteristics are not real, being imputations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 12:33 AM
Title: Ch. 1, Ver. 1: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Homage; Qualities for the benefit of the Buddha Himself
Content:
Grigoris said:
By omniscience I am talking about "knowing everything".  Clearly if one sees reality one will know the truth of reality, but is this the same with knowing how many hairs I have on my (slowly balding) head?

Malcolm wrote:
No, the Buddha could know that if he chose, but that is not really what omniscience here intends.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, July 3rd, 2020 at 12:33 AM
Title: Ch. 1, Ver. 1: Exposition of the Elements (Dhatunirdesa); Homage; Qualities for the benefit of the Buddha Himself
Content:


Grigoris said:
4. Seems to refer to a lack of omniscience.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and when you get a bit further, all knowable things really just means compounded and uncompounded phenomena included in various schemes of the skandhas, āyatanas, and dhātus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharmakosabhasyam Book Club
Content:
jake said:
For those of you with the Sangpo edition perhaps someone could help me? I'll admit that I'm far from skilled in this more serious study and have been really struggling to understand the notations in Sangpo.

On page 333, in Note 49. He writes:
For the doctrinal perspective sasrava-anasrava in regard to the eighteen elements (dhatu), see i. 31cd. For a discussion of the three fluxes, see v. 35-36; for an explanation of the term asrava, see v. 40.
What on earth/where on earth is: i. 31cd or v. 35-36? or v. 40?

Malcolm wrote:
1.31 = chapter one, verse 31, lines 3 and 4; v.35-36 means chapter five (in volume three), verses 35-36. etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
LastLegend said:
I am confused I don’t know which is is which anymore. It seems like it’s all the same?

Astus said:
One evening, after a Dharma talk at the Boston Dharmadhatu, a student said to Seung Sahn Soen-sa, "At a recent seminar on Zen and Tantra,  Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche compared Zen to black and white and tantra to color. What do you think of this?"
...
Soen-sa said, ... "When you are thinking, your mind  and my mind  are  different. When you are not thinking, your mind and my mind are the same. Now tell me - when you are not thinking, is there color? Is there black and white? Not  thinking,  your mind is empty mind. Empty minds means cutting off all speech and words. Is there color then?"
(Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, p 79)

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a very good answer. This kind of idea, the cessation of thinking, just results in more samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
PeterC said:
At this point I don’t think it’s a great idea to be taking medical advice from anyone in the US on this.  Most of the countries that have the outbreak under control had a treatment protocol months ago - as part of a coordinated treatment strategy, not the cottage industry we have in the US - and have had much lower case-based mortality.  I’m not going to give medical advice but if I wanted an idea of which drugs to take I would look at what they’re doing.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no drugs that are really that effective in treating Covid about which we have evidence-based knowledge.

One of my good friends is the chief nurse at Boston Medical Center. Because they prepared early, and retrained the staff in January in how to properly put on and take off PPE, they have had almost no staff infections. Quarantine, masks social distancing, remain, at this point, the most effective measures for dealing with this infection.

What we lack in the US is effective contact tracing due to the fact that the man running the CDC, Redfield, is an incompetent GOP stooge in an incompetent GOP administration, with a significant population in the US that actually thinks this is no big deal, and a president that defunded our resources in China that could have alerted us. In short, we are screwed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 6:49 AM
Title: Re: How exactly does karma "purification" work?
Content:
NateLeo said:
Hey all,

So recently I've tried to start a dhyana regimen, and I've noticed:
When i do this, i have vivid dreams that are usually really negative: im in situations where im getting harassed, attacked, etc. even recently something unusually bad happened in my "waking" life. These things never happened when i was just goin thru life like anybody, so i got curious..

Now I've done research, and I've seen articles about samatha-dhyana being a purification method, but also a wide array of things as well that purify (nembutsu, vajrasattva, etc)

And now i want to know: with all these wide arrays of methods, what is the fundamental thing about them that purifies or transforms bad karma? and
What does this fundamental thing do to the mind?

Malcolm wrote:
Karma is not something real, so it can be purified.

If it were real, then we would all be screwed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
clyde said:
A reminder, this was the question asked of Zen students:

Matylda said:
Indeed

But then right from the beginning it is an invalid question.
how 'student' may know if a teacher is or is not awakened??? if he knows, he/she does not need any teacher at all, since possess enough wisdom to go on his/her own.
If one does not know, then there is no way for such person to discern if a teacher, or teachers or whoever is or is not awakened.

What I observed in the West is, that if people like a certain teacher then they do believe he has some special quality or wisdom or is enlightened etc. but once they stop to like the teacher, then exactly the same person is told to be unenlightened and in possession of bad qualities.

So if you ask such question I guess that mostly answer will relate to confused human minds of likes and dislikes. And it has nothing to do with the notion of a zen teacher and his awakening.

Dan74 said:
But haven't you made such judgments yourself here? Didn't you say that you had not met any Western Zen teacher who was awakened, or have I misunderstood? Or you don't class yourself as 'a student'?

Malcolm wrote:
Matylda is Japanese, raised in a traditional Soto family, who has, over many years, offered us authentic insights into how things operate in Japan. She has for many years expressed deep skepticism about Zen in Western countries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
As the question is phrased in somewhat general terms,
It’s probably accurate enough to describe dzogchen and mahamudra as simply allowing the mind to rest in awareness...

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not. One does not allow one's mind to rest in a mental factor in either tradition.


PadmaVonSamba said:
So, you are saying, ‘simply rest’ with no awareness?
...because in many examples (none of which I can cite at the moment) Thrangu Rinpoche explains the practice of mahamudra as simply allowing the mind to rest naturally.
That’s either gotta include or exclude awareness.
I’m going with the inclusion of awareness, otherwise there is no experience of it, which would be pointless.

Anyway, as I suggested, that description is probably accurate enough, reflecting the degree of specificity used in the opening post describing other types of meditation.
Sure, one could delve into infinite and perhaps contradictory fine points in any of them. But, it works.

Malcolm wrote:
We are not resting in awareness, we are resting in the natural state of the mind, clarity and emptiness. We use mindfulness and awareness in tandem to sustain resting in the nature of the mind. We are aware of something in Dzogchen and Mahamudra, that is, a moment of unfabricated consciousness. But we are not resting in awareness per se. Mindfulness (dran pa) and awareness (shes bzhin) are two mental factors that always function together. If one is aware, one is mindful, if one is mindful, one is aware. Clarity on the other hand is not a mental factor, it is part of the nature of the mind, just as one aspect of the nature of water is wetness. But it is the nature of the mind is not only clarity, it is also empty, just as limpidity is also an aspect of the nature of water.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, July 2nd, 2020 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Meditation techniques in each tradition
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
As the question is phrased in somewhat general terms,
It’s probably accurate enough to describe dzogchen and mahamudra as simply allowing the mind to rest in awareness...

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not. One does not allow one's mind to rest in a mental factor in either tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 1st, 2020 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Words, characters, syllables & liberation
Content:
humble.student said:
Syllables are neither letters nor characters, but characters 字 are indeed syllables...

Caoimhghín said:
They can actually be both. This is a syllable: बो. It is also a letter and a character.

Malcolm wrote:
Akṣara means unalterable, as you know, and refers to a unit of sound.

We translate this term as "syllable" as a convention, because a syllable is a unit of pronunciation.

The written character for an akṣara is incidental, and can take any form, such as A, 𑀅, आ, ཨ, etc.

When we see a phrase like "akṣaram udāharati (Tib.: yi ger brjod pa)" we have to understand we are taking about units of speech, not units of writing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 1st, 2020 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You gave the Sanskrit and the Tibetan. There are no "characters" in either language.

Astus said:
It was intended as further reference to clarify what was translated as "letters" in https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=541014#p541014. The Vimalakirti Sutra has 言說文字 that consists of "spoken" (yanshou 言說) and "character" (wenzi 文字), and the latter is "literature/writing" (wen 文) plus "letter/character/word" (zi 字). This was simply translated as "letter" in the quote. Furthermore, in the quote from Kukai's work "letter" is a translation for zi 字, what Giebel renders as "sign" (in https://www.bdkamerica.org/book/shingon-texts, p 85). But clearly there is a difference here, as the Vimalakirt Sutra actually talks of speech, while Kukai really means writing.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, but a syllable is neither a letter nor a character.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 1st, 2020 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Words, characters, syllables & liberation
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just to add a note, a syllable is different than a "character."

Astus said:
It was meant as an approximation of the Chinese translation.

Malcolm wrote:
You gave the Sanskrit and the Tibetan. There are no "characters" in either language.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, July 1st, 2020 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Astus said:
akṣaram udāharati (Tib.: yi ger brjod pa), that is "spoken characters".

Malcolm wrote:
Expressed in syllables.
Just to add a note, a syllable is different than a "character."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: Words, characters, syllables & liberation
Content:
Astus said:
akṣaram udāharati (Tib.: yi ger brjod pa), that is "spoken characters".

Malcolm wrote:
Expressed in syllables.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Astus said:
But I quite like Chekawa's collection...

Malcolm wrote:
Useful, but not definitive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Dharma protectors
Content:
bhava said:
Hello, in general there are several terms for guardians of the teachings or dharma protectors - chos skyong, srung ma, dam can, bka' srung, bstan srung etc generally divided into enlightened, worldly and half-worldly, having their respective activities of protectiving teachings and practitioners. Is there a clear, comprehensive and trustworthy text in english describing these things in detail? Common one is Nebesky-Wojkowicz Oracles and Demons of Tibet, however I thought of a more traditional source. Thank you, in dharma, bh.

Grigoris said:
Check out this site for starters.

I do not know of any single book describing dharmapala.

Malcolm wrote:
Nebesky-Wojkowicz Oracles and Demons of Tibet.

It is about the only resource out there in English. Beyond that, there are some papers you can find on this or that individual guardian.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 5:18 AM
Title: Re: Article on Taimitsu
Content:
Queequeg said:
https://www.academia.edu/17615179/_Taimitsu_The_Esoteric_Buddhism_of_the_Tendai_School_in_Esoteric_Buddhism_and_the_Tantras_in_East_Asia_Charles_Orzech_general_ed._Leiden_Brill_2011_pp._744-767?email_work_card=view-paper

This may be of interest to folks.

Malcolm wrote:
You might find this book useful for context:

Chinese Esoteric Buddhism, G.C. Goble CUP, 2019.

Amoghavajra was a contemporary of Padmasambhava. All these tantric madmen irrevocably changed the course of Buddhadharma in Asia.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I agree it's complex, but it does strike me as odd that the once-returner with his partial awakening as an unripened wisdom that only completely fruits later would be less awakened than the stream-entrant with his seven lifetimes until arhatva. Of course, bodhisattva stream-entry does not result in seven lifetimes until arhatva.

Arguably one of the reasons why the stream-entrant is called a stream-entrant is because he has merely "entered the stream" to awakening. His seven lifetimes, or dare we say his three aeons, are the consequence of that entrance then, at least seven to make it up the stream to "the other shore" in the case of the path as the Buddha outlined it to the śrāvakas.

Malcolm wrote:
Why are you bothering to litigate something which is a simple matter of definition?

Caoimhghín said:
It's just a matter of in-person Buddhism disagreeing with on-internet Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Āryas possess bodhi, whether it is the inferior bodhi of ārya śrāvakas or the superior bodhi of ārya bodhisattvas.

There is bodhi, and there there is samyaksambodhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Moon-reflection-analogy and the other similes
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
It is one of the deepest things.

White Sakura said:
I agree. Now the text was delayed to Sutra Studies.
I think it is also of the greatest importance for tantra. Because the tantric Yidams shall not be visualized as inherently existing objects. So it is important to remind myself all the time that they are emptiness-appearance, like the moon reflected in water.

Malcolm wrote:
I prefer the rainbow analogy for that, personally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Likewise, unless those buddha qualities are discovered by you in a direct perception, or pointed out to you, even if you have them, they are of no use to you.

Astus said:
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/D/92 is one of the main Zen slogans. It can result in buddhahood exactly because there is no need to gather anything more.

Malcolm wrote:
It could, but it usually doesn't, 99.999 percent of the time. In any case, buddhahood cannot be realized with slogans.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Minobu said:
you scolded someone for reading Dzogchen books without the initiation and i agree with you on this very important rule.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen texts require some expertise to understand in a proper way. A literal reading of them is often inaccurate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Minobu said:
you scolded someone for reading Dzogchen books without the initiation and i agree with you on this very important rule.

Malcolm wrote:
One of the features of secret mantra, which perhaps Nichiren did not like much (even though he was clearly quite adept at secret mantra practice as it exists in Tendai Mikkyo) is that its Japanese expression is clearly elitist, expensive, and requires a prodigious amount of education in mandala theory, mudra practice, and so on. But this is perhaps a reflection of how secret mantra was practiced in India during the late 7th and 8th centuries. In Tibet too, during the same period, secret mantra was very elitist, expensive, and so on. It was practiced basically the same way it was practiced in Japan.

However, because Tibet is closer to India, the more populist expression of secret mantra in the HYT also made inroads, and of course, Dzogchen and later Mahāmudra, is part of that movement.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Könchok Thrinley said:
Isn't the whole thing around "other power" more of a skillful means? To open up buddhadharma to new sort of people.

Also if other power does not work how does one then get to the Sukhavati?

Malcolm wrote:
You have to want to go to Sukhavati.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 30th, 2020 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
LastLegend said:
The issue here isn’t that other power is not possible...

Malcolm wrote:
It is pretty impossible. The Buddha said:

Misdeeds cannot be washed away with water,
suffering cannot be removed with the hand,
I cannot hand you liberation, 
but I can show the path.

Shinran's decision to abdicate responsibility for his own liberation is in direct contradiction to this maxim.

After all, since the Buddha invited us to critique his teachings, why should any dharma teaching, including Dzogchen, be immune from critique?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Minobu said:
ok so like in order to understand what you are doing in Dzogchen , you need to understand who Lord Sakyamuni actually is...

what we thought was Lord Sakyamuni...of lets say Lotus Buddhism , or theravada Buddhism, you know , the guy came ...his life was theatre...he actually attained enlightenment long ago not under the tree...maybe theravadins don;t believe that ...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, hence the name of the Buddha's life story sūtra, Lalitavistara Sūtra, the Extensive Play.

Minobu said:
But Dzogchen gives us an entirely different view of what we thought Lord Buddha Sakyamuni was...and is...

and then take it from there...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but it does not really contradict other Mahāyāna sentiments, it merely builds on them.



Minobu said:
also to settle my Karmic issue...

you say if i realize Sunyata then Karma is no longer a factor as a hindrance to Buddhahood...

Malcolm wrote:
karma is an obscuration, it can only be removed by realizing and practicing dharmatā.


Minobu said:
and yet the story of Lord Nagarjuna having some guy kill him in order to expiate the last karmic bond , in His case some ant he killed long ago...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and supposedly his head and body are inching towards each other and so on.

Minobu said:
also it seems there is a lot of undoing Buddhist thought we always took for granted in order to actually practice True Dzogchen...

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is just another approach to Buddhadharma. I think it is the most effective for this degenerate age because it is grounded in secret mantra and a specific view of the human body and how that is employed in practice, but all Mahāyāna schools claim their approach is the most effective for Mappo, the degenerate age.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
He travelled through Samsara as a common mortal....for eternities ...
Yes, there was a person who experienced suffering in samsara until they trained under a buddha and realized buddahood personally. This person's realization is the basis for the realization of the 1001 buddhas of the fortunate eon.

GrapeLover said:
I am interested in this point—I’ve never really properly reconciled the fact that Buddhas are emanations with the jatakas etc (eg, can there be a meaningful personal link between the last life of a bodhisattva and the following nirmanakaya? As the Buddha’s mind is dharmakaya wherein there is no distinction between Buddhas, what does it mean for them to say “in one of my past lives”?)

Who is the person and Buddha in question here? Is it something quite ‘high-level’ like a figure attaining Buddhahood under Samantabhadra and emanating all the Buddhas of this eon?

Thanks for putting so much into this thread.

Malcolm wrote:
According to the Lo rgyus chen mo found in the Vima sNying thig, there was a person who trained under three nirmanakāya buddhas in three successive incarnations in the previous mahākalpa, and attained buddhahood himself. During the 20 void eons, this buddha remained latent since there was no manifest physical universe, etc. When the physical universe again manifested at the beginning of this mahākalpa, this buddha's dharmakāya manifested the sambhogakāya, etc., and also the first nirmankāya buddha of the first eon, Ngangwa Dampa, who taught the Sound Tantras as well as the remainder of the 17 tantras.

Buddhas may have the same realization, but their omniscience is such thay they can distinguish between the different mind streams that led to their common realization. For example, if we are seated at the Met, looking at Monet's lily pond, we are all looking at the same painting, even though we arrived at different times from different places, and left to go to different destinations. We can understand the realizations of the buddhas just like that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Not really-- hence the various metaphors about paupers using rocks that hide wishfulfilling jewels as pillows, who die without recognizing they have been in possession of such a jewel the entire time.

Astus said:
'In the expository, causal vehicle of the paramitas, the sugatagarbha or buddha-nature is considered to be present in the minds of beings only as a seed. When this is fully developed through circumstantial conditions— in other words, the two accumulations (of merit and wisdom) — buddhahood is attained. And since the cause comes first and its result after, one speaks in this case of a causal vehicle. By contrast, the Mantrayana, the vehicle of mantra, proclaims that all beings are by nature endowed with the sugatagarbha, wherein all enlightened qualities are spontaneously present.'
(Treasury of Precious Qualities, vol 2, p 86)

Unlike the above description of sutrayana, in Chan, Tiantai, and Huayan buddha-nature is understood to be already complete with the buddha qualities, as already noted in http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/Translations/Awakening_of_faith.html:

'Next, Suchness has two aspects if predicated in words. One is that it is truly empty (sunya), for this aspect can, in the final sense, reveal what is real. The other is that it is truly nonempty (a-sunya), for its essence itself is endowed with undefiled and excellent qualities.'

Malcolm wrote:
That does not matter. Let's say you have a house, and in your house is a million dollars. If you never discover the million dollars or it is never shown to you, you will have a million dollars and never know it. Likewise, unless those buddha qualities are discovered by you in a direct perception, or pointed out to you, even if you have them, they are of no use to you.

As far as Dzogchen view goes, such qualities exist in the form of potential only. The analogy Longchenpa uses is that even though you may not need to gather the two accumulations ultimately in order to possess the kāyas and wisdoms, practicing the two accumulations is like polishing a dirty gem. One is not really adding anything new, but instead one is revealing what is already there, but hidden from ordinary sight.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Astus said:
Malcolm may step in of course, but let me add this as a quick reply here. While dzogchen (any others) has a unique presentation and methods, it does not essentially diverge in its understanding from what is there to be done, that is, the elimination of defilements and obscurations, the realisation of the twofold emptiness, and so on.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, Dzogchen seeks to address the same existential questions as all other Buddhist traditions.

Astus said:
What I don't get is you don't really explain how karma seems to be overridden...or discharged ...
Again, while dzogchen has its own take on common Buddhist doctrines, it matches the basic teachings regarding dependent origination, how from ignorance comes suffering, and when ignorance is eliminated, there is no more samsara.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is correct.


Astus said:
Lord Sakyamuni endured samsaric existence for like an eternity to rid His Karma...
That version describes how merit needs to be accumulated over a long period of time. Such a view is "obsolete" in light of the view of buddha-nature.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really-- hence the various metaphors about paupers using rocks that hide wishfulfilling jewels as pillows, who die without recognizing they have been in possession of such a jewel the entire time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Realizing emptiness in Dzogchen means realizing the original purity of all phenomena, in common with the perfection of wisdom sūtras, etc., and the naturally perfect nature of all phenomena. Like Chan and Zen, paths and stages as described in the sūtras are pretty irrelevant in Dzogchen teachings.They exist, but only to cater to a conventional understandings of the notion of "progress."

Minobu said:
ok so the emptiness is not about sunyata , it's a Dzogchen realization , i guess one has to receive initiation in order to study...

Malcolm wrote:
It is about śūnyatā. But our nature is only not only śūnyatā. Our nature also possess infinite potential which is naturally perfected.


Minobu said:
Dzogchen seems to be a completely different approach to Buddhahood...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Minobu said:
What I don't get is you don't really explain how karma seems to be overridden...or discharged ...
Lord Sakyamuni endured samsaric existence for like an eternity to rid His Karma...

Malcolm wrote:
We have a different understanding of the person of Śākyamuni Buddha. Our understanding is that nirmanakāya Śākyamuni Buddha is an emanation of sambhogakāya Vajradhara. Vajradhara is an emanation of the dharmakāya Samantabhadra.

In Dzogchen, we consider that Śākyamuni Buddha to be one of the twelve teachers of Dzogchen, unique from other buddhas in that the twelve teachers of Dzogchen possess 108 deeds (12 * 9), not merely the standard twelve that are referenced in the conventional sutrayāna.

Minobu said:
He travelled through Samsara as a common mortal....for eternities ...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there was a person who experienced suffering in samsara until they trained under a buddha and realized buddahood personally. This person's realization is the basis for the realization of the 1001 buddhas of the fortunate eon.


Minobu said:
So if He would have encountered Dzogchen he would not have had to go through all this...???

But i guess His Karma did not allow for it..????

Karma malcolm , i'm hung up on this...please show me how Dzogchen erases Karma..

Malcolm wrote:
Even karma is originally pure. So is ignorance, and all states of samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Minobu said:
So like on the way to Buddhahood after you get the emptiness thing down pat...
what about one's Karma..
I thought no buddha , only the Catholic Church can eradicate karma...ok the catholic church is sarcasm , they went from money and burlap bags to hail mary's ...but Getting rid of Karma is no easy feat...

i don't think any intellectual endeavour can eradicate Karma..

So all these numbers up in pure land and all ...is it like a jail get out of free card ...like go there and it disappears and in 500 years or what ever you are a Buddha free of Karma.  I don't mean to be obtuse but Karma is the key...and I do not believe there are any get out of jail cards floating around..

This was something I needed Malcolm to answer. I'm trying to understand things from his paradigm , instead of a Nichiren Shonin perspective.
It's important for me.

I don't fully understand the different time periods , like some are born from lotus  and others take 500 years in the pure land..which iosn't really that important to me...just accept it eh...im ok with stuff like that...

So how do you expiate Karma ?

How do you enter a pure land with karma ..

You say if you practice Dzogchen and realize emptiness>>>are you talking Sunyata emptiness or that emptiness that is used to describe something other than sunyata...i recall this cropping up a few years ago...

after that you die and go to pure land....what happens to the Karma ...You don't end up here in samsara without gazillion years of karma to work out...yes //no...

Malcolm wrote:
Only the most average of Dzogchen practitioners take birth in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields. They have left samsara behind forever.

IN order to understand the different grades of rebirth in Sukhavati, you would have to read the long Sukhavati sūtra. However, as I pointed out above, that sūtra is not read in Tibetan Buddhism.

Realizing emptiness in Dzogchen means realizing the original purity of all phenomena, in common with the perfection of wisdom sūtras, etc., and the naturally perfect nature of all phenomena. Like Chan and Zen, paths and stages as described in the sūtras are pretty irrelevant in Dzogchen teachings.They exist, but only to cater to a conventional understandings of the notion of "progress."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


GrapeLover said:
And you started your response with “When an interested student does not understand the teachings of Dzogchen, this is the fault of the teacher”, which I (perhaps erroneously) took as implying that they actually were given a Dzogchen teaching through these words.

Malcolm wrote:
Telling people to recite Om Amideva Hrih is not introducing people to Dzogchen teachings. It is assuming, incorrectly, that one can estimate other people's capacity.

GrapeLover said:
Although there is the essential point of transmission, I feel like the Shin view of Other Power is trying to communicate the same principle as was verbally expressed.

Malcolm wrote:
Reciting Nembutsu, like reciting Namu Myorenge Kyo, is a virtuous activity, most certainly. Having faith in Amitabha has benefit. But arguing that sūtrayāna practices such as Pure Land practice, etc., are quick paths to buddhahood is is erroneous and cannot be supported on the basis of their own fundamental texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 8:18 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:



Steel said:
Renunciation isn't a requirement for birth in sukhavati. Shinran himself was married and had seven children, and he taught the path to everyone including warriors, hunters, butchers, and prostitutes. This can all be backed by the 18th Vow.

Malcolm wrote:
The 18th vow is not a guarantee one will take rebirth in Sukhavati. Even if it were, the same sūtra states:
"Although they receive no punishment or ill treatment even for a single moment, they must pass five hundred years there without being able to see the Three Treasures, make offerings to the Buddha, or cultivate a store of virtue. This is distressing to them. Though there are other pleasures, they do not enjoy living there.
It is just not a quick path. Accept it.

Steel said:
I'll side with Shinran and Rennyo on these matters. Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
You are free. I’ve read everything written by Shinran. I don’t accept other power at all. It contradicts the very foundational principles of Buddhadharma, namely, that we are all personally responsible for our own liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 8:15 PM
Title: Re: How awakened are bodhisattva stream-entrants?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
This brings up another issue: why are only bodhisattvas of a certain bhūmi or higher mahāsattvas (and this bhūmi is not usually given as the first)? Similarly, take the Heart Sutra for example, which depicts Avalokiteśvara gaining insight into emptiness. He is also depicted as perfecting wisdom-perfection (prajñāpāramitā) in that sūtra, so is he at the first bhūmi, a bodhisattva stream-entrant, or is this entrance into the eighth bhūmi, which is more likely? How does the śrāvaka stream-entrant differ in his realization from the bodhisattva stream-entrant other than the former theoretically missing the foundations of bodhicitta?

Astus said:
It depends on whom you ask, as there are various views about sravakas (and bodhisattvas) in different Mahayana works. What separates the four noble persons on the sravaka path is not in their attainment of insight into the four noble truths, but how much of the fetters they have removed permanently.

Caoimhghín said:
And there is no furthering of wisdom or insight accompanied by the loosening of these fetters? I'm not a śrāvaka literature expert. It strikes me as there is a furthering of insight and a gradual deepening of wisdom in the way that the bodhisattva path is described as the bodhisattva progresses.

Are there any wisdoms that an arhat has that a stream-entrant lacks? I suppose that would answer the question.


Malcolm wrote:
The Heart Sutra does not show Avalokiteshvara gaining insight into emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 8:12 PM
Title: Re: Who is Mahavairocana?
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
I'm in a bit of disagreement with you here. PP Buddhism has two bodies: dharma and form, the same you give for "pre-Yogacara." These two bodies are in śrāvaka literature as well, in the suttas and āgamas.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, PP Buddhism has two kāyas.

There is no mention in the agamas and so on of any kāya other than dharmakāya. The notion of the rūpakāya as a thing is Mahāyāna in inception. Yes, of course the Buddha has a physical body, but when there is a reference to the dharmakāya in pre Mahāyāna literature, kāya is equivalent to skandha, i.e., dharmakāya = all the dharmaskandhas.

Caoimhghín said:
You're right, actually.

Malcolm wrote:
It happens with surprising regularity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I agree it's complex, but it does strike me as odd that the once-returner with his partial awakening as an unripened wisdom that only completely fruits later would be less awakened than the stream-entrant with his seven lifetimes until arhatva. Of course, bodhisattva stream-entry does not result in seven lifetimes until arhatva.

Arguably one of the reasons why the stream-entrant is called a stream-entrant is because he has merely "entered the stream" to awakening. His seven lifetimes, or dare we say his three aeons, are the consequence of that entrance then, at least seven to make it up the stream to "the other shore" in the case of the path as the Buddha outlined it to the śrāvakas.

Malcolm wrote:
Why are you bothering to litigate something which is a simple matter of definition?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
I guess that's the difference there. On what basis do you call all bhūmikas "awakened?"

Malcolm wrote:
All bodhisattvas on the bhumis are āryas. Bodhisattvas on the paths of accumulations and application are not āryas. Since the former have realized emptiness in a direct perception, they are āryas.

Caoimhghín said:
So by your logic, all stream-entrants are awakened as well. Stream-entrants are significantly beneath Arhats. I thought the stream-entrant only makes contact once with nirvāṇa as a mental object, and doesn't abide in it with life substratum.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they have all tasted nirvana and thus are aryas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 7:52 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
In general, the sutra itself offers a carrot and stick approach. Sukhavati is the carrot; but you cannot get there without being a good Dharma practitioner, practicing the path of renunciation. Not only this, but the small sūtra makes it clear that this devotional practice should occur in the week before one's death, hence the reason why most Pure Land practice in Tibetan Buddhism is taken up at the end of a person's life. And finally, as stated above, the merit of Dharma practice in this Sahaloka far surpasses the merit of Dharma practice in Sukhavati.

Steel said:
Renunciation isn't a requirement for birth in sukhavati. Shinran himself was married and had seven children, and he taught the path to everyone including warriors, hunters, butchers, and prostitutes. This can all be backed by the 18th Vow.

Malcolm wrote:
The 18th vow is not a guarantee one will take rebirth in Sukhavati. Even if it were, the same sūtra states:
"Although they receive no punishment or ill treatment even for a single moment, they must pass five hundred years there without being able to see the Three Treasures, make offerings to the Buddha, or cultivate a store of virtue. This is distressing to them. Though there are other pleasures, they do not enjoy living there.
It is just not a quick path. Accept it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 7:49 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
Yes, well there's  a lot of real bullshit out there that passes for Dzogchen too.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed. This is why I question people who claim to be Dzogchen teachers when they do not have any knowledge of Tibetan at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 7:47 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Russell said:
I always felt ChNN was aware of what Frantzis was doing since many of his students went to ChNN also. I don't recall any specific mention, but ChNN for sure encouraged us to use methods from other traditions, Buddhist or not, if they were useful and not be limited.

I know people who asked ChNN about how to combine Frantzis's teachings with Dzogchen and they were very happy with the answers they got and continue practising both together decades later.

Malcolm wrote:
The Boss never conditioned anyone. On the other hand, this did not mean he necessarily went along with people's ideas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Beyond this, there is the fact that Tibetan Buddhists such as myself only read the the smaller Sukhavativyuha. This does not mean that the large sūtra is invalid, it was just never translated into Tibetan, and thus, plays no part in Tibetan Buddhist understandings of Sukhavati.

Losal Samten said:
Interesting; any idea why it slipped past both the old and new school translators?

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps it went out of print in India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
But isn't that merely the first bhūmi?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Caoimhghín said:
Don't you at least have to get to 7/8 to be called awakened to any degree?

Malcolm wrote:
No.

Caoimhghín said:
I guess that's the difference there. On what basis do you call all bhūmikas "awakened?"

Malcolm wrote:
All bodhisattvas on the bhumis are āryas. Bodhisattvas on the paths of accumulations and application are not āryas. Since the former have realized emptiness in a direct perception, they are āryas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Taoist yoga really requires very little to no scholarly or philosophical knowledge to practice. It's not taught the way Buddhist methods are at all, and even native Chinese speakers who write authoritative books on it tend to teach it without a lot of reliance on written sources, in my experience. It is not a scholarly tradition in the manner of Buddhadharma, or at least the scholarly tradition seems more optional.

Further, some teachers say that the academizing of it came after the fact, and that the original Taoist "yogis" were anything but scholars. For instance, Tai Chi certainly did not come from the Tai Chi classics nor the volumes and volumes of esoteric literature surrounding it, that all came much later.

As far as the actual religious/philosophical content, it's pretty essentialist in my experience. The worldview of Taosim sort of precludes the notion of Samsara, in my opinion. It's interesting and I think does intersect in places with some Buddhist teachings, but it's clearly a different worldview, and the ultimate goal of the yogic method itself of creating a "shen baby" really differs from Buddhist methods. You could find parallels with Phowa etc., but it's it's own deal.

Malcolm wrote:
I have seen a lot of real bullshit that passes for "taoist energy work." For example, David Verdesi.

ChNN never once, that I can recall, proposed that people should go learn Qigong, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:



Minobu said:
thanks  ...i get what you mean now..

so whats the diff btw awakening and buddhahood...are you saying certain realizations are open for us to experience but full blown Buddhahood is another story..

Malcolm wrote:
In Mahayāna, buddhahood is another name for omniscience. Bodhi, awakening, means the realization of emptiness.

Caoimhghín said:
But isn't that merely the first bhūmi?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Caoimhghín said:
Don't you at least have to get to 7/8 to be called awakened to any degree?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Russell said:
To reply to your further edit. I don't know, I assumed that that would be possible and there were some stories like this, where people with the right karmic connection can successfully learn dzogchen from illiterate even senile (most of the time) masters?

Malcolm wrote:
I was expressing my personal reservations, considering how much crap is out there passing for "dzogchen teachings."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Astus said:
Actually, that passage reads: 'Future buddhas and past buddhas transmit the mind by mind not relying on written words.' (「前佛後佛以心傳心。不立文字。」(CBETA 2020.Q1, T48, no. 2009, p. 373b13-14)). And then of course the text (written word) goes on to talk of (define) what mind is.

Malcolm wrote:
Makes for good google translate poetry:


"Before and after the Buddha passed the heart with the heart. No writing."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Minobu said:
Malcolm correct me if i'm wrong.
You did the three year three month three day completion stage tantra in tibet...At least thats what i recall Namdrol saying on E-Sangha.
At the time that was the end all and be all ...so is that vajrayana ?

Now it's Dzogchen is the fastest but you got to wait till ya die .

so whats up with this.
Completion stage Tantra on the back burner or did you just discard the whole idea.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I did a three year retreat. Not in tibet, however, but in Western Mass. I was already practicing Dzogchen at that time.

I never said you have to wait until you die to achieve awakening. Full awakening, buddhahood, is a different story. You and I are not going to attain buddhahood in this lifetime. But can we attain awakening is this lifetime? Of course we can.

Minobu said:
thanks  ...i get what you mean now..

so whats the diff btw awakening and buddhahood...are you saying certain realizations are open for us to experience but full blown Buddhahood is another story..

Malcolm wrote:
In Mahayāna, buddhahood is another name for omniscience. Bodhi, awakening, means the realization of emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Minobu said:
Malcolm correct me if i'm wrong.
You did the three year three month three day completion stage tantra in tibet...At least thats what i recall Namdrol saying on E-Sangha.
At the time that was the end all and be all ...so is that vajrayana ?

Now it's Dzogchen is the fastest but you got to wait till ya die .

so whats up with this.
Completion stage Tantra on the back burner or did you just discard the whole idea.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I did a three year retreat. Not in tibet, however, but in Western Mass. I was already practicing Dzogchen at that time.

I never said you have to wait until you die to achieve awakening. Full awakening, buddhahood, is a different story. You and I are not going to attain buddhahood in this lifetime. But can we attain awakening is this lifetime? Of course we can.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Russell said:
I read those books long ago, but probably you are right, from those words it could be interpreted that way. The only published source I know where Frantzis gets more philosophical is an audio course on the Tao Te Ching, this is going to be published as a book so I think there you will see these terms defined more precisely and related to emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Can Frantzis read Classical Chinese fluently? I mean, would you take teachings on Dzogchen seriously from anyone who could not read classical Tibetan fluently and had not been trained in how to read ancient Dzogchen tantras?

I sure wouldn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 29th, 2020 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Russell said:
Well I could never follow the Buddhist criticism of Taoism on this site since the Taoist teachings I have do talk about and introduce you to emptiness not as a fixed nothing, but the empty infinite potential of the individual and eventually much later on how this integrates or becomes one with the emptiness of all and everything (aka universal consciousness).

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure you can equate Taoist nonbeing (wu) with śūnyāta.

However, it is unclear from the term "universal consciousness" when contrasted with "individual consciousness" that Frantzis is not proposing some kind of brahmin.

Anyway, Dzogchen teachings very clearly negate the kind of nondual consciousness proposed by Hindus such as Shankara, etc. I don't see how Frantzis is saying something any different than Advaita, on this score, based on what he states in his second book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: What to Recite at Graveyards?
Content:
PeterC said:
If in doubt, Sang offerings are good things to do in general. If you’re concerned about pretas there are specific water offerings you can do for them.  I don’t have transmission of those but they should be easy to come by.

Malcolm wrote:
Jvalamukha torma. It does not require transmission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Read an article on "mind-blind" (Aphantasia) today
Content:
tobes said:
Yes, I'm sure.

Grigoris said:
How can you be sure?  How can you know what (or how) somebody else is seeing?

Quick answer:  You can't.

Malcolm wrote:
The old qualia trick.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Russell said:
I am personally sure it is an authentic endorsement from ChNN, having been a student of both for 20 years. If you are not sure then why not ask the International Gakyil or SSI to clarify. Many students of Bruce Frantzis were also students of ChNN and asked ChNN questions about how to integrate the two teachings for example so this may be how ChNN became familiar with Bruce Frantzis's teachings (which are not neo-Taoism, they are in the lineage of Lao Tzu's Water method or old Taoism).

Very occasionally Bruce Frantzis does teach Dzogchen, once that I know of and attended myself. Also as far as I know Lama Wangdor was not endorsing teachers for political reasons. The three I know all have relaxed, informal and spontaneous styles of teachings but are all serious committed teachers successfully helping many people. For those of you who very much like polite, formal, very structured philosophical styles these teachers are probably not for you.

Malcolm wrote:
Frantzis' notion of Universal Consciousness however is definitely not consistent with Dzogchen teachings on any level.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
GrapeLover said:
With respect to time, I tend to think of this excerpt from the Vimalakirti Sutra:

“The bodhisattva who lives in the inconceivable liberation, for the sake of disciplining those living beings who are disciplined through immeasurable periods of evolution, can make the passing of a week seem like the passing of an eon, and he can make the passing of an eon seem like the passing of a week for those who are disciplined through a short period of evolution. The living beings who are disciplined through an immeasurable period of evolution actually perceive a week to be the passing of an eon, and those disciplined by a short period of evolution actually perceive an eon to be the passing of a week.”

It seems like if there’s anywhere that you’d be under the very direct influence of Buddhas and bodhisattvas dwelling in the inconceivable liberation then it would be a Pure Land. So it seems to me that as much time will seem to pass as suits the individual to be developed. The “actual” time that has passed in the meantime would seem to be immaterial.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two points. The first point is whether or not there is a guarantee of immediate rebirth in Sukhavati. Some people assert there is, some people assert there is not. The text of the vows pretty much excludes those who have committed any of the five karmas of immediate retribution, despite Shinran's assertions. "Thinking of Amitabha ten times" is also pretty vague.

Beyond this, there is the fact that Tibetan Buddhists such as myself only read the the smaller Sukhavativyuha. This does not mean that the large sūtra is invalid, it was just never translated into Tibetan, and thus, plays no part in Tibetan Buddhist understandings of Sukhavati. Moreover, the large sūtra extolls the benefits of practicing virtue in this life above that of practicing in Sukhavati:
If you strictly observe the precepts of abstinence with upright thought and mindfulness even for a day and a night, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the land of Amitāyus for a hundred years. The reason is that in that buddha land of effortless spontaneity all the inhabitants do good without committing even a hair’s breadth of evil. If in this world you do good for ten days and nights, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the buddha lands of other directions for a thousand years.
Three Pure Land Sūtras, BDK, pp. 55

As for those stuck in lotus flowers:
The Buddha said to Maitreya, “Those beings born within the lotus buds are like that. Because of their doubt of the Buddha’s wisdom they have been born in palaces. Although they receive no punishment or ill treatment even for a single moment, they must pass five hundred years there without being able to see the Three Treasures, make offerings to the Buddha, or cultivate a store of virtue. This is distressing to them. Though there are other pleasures, they do not enjoy living there.
Three Pure Land Sūtras, BDK, pp. 59

In general, the sutra itself offers a carrot and stick approach. Sukhavati is the carrot; but you cannot get there without being a good Dharma practitioner, practicing the path of renunciation. Not only this, but the small sūtra makes it clear that this devotional practice should occur in the week before one's death, hence the reason why most Pure Land practice in Tibetan Buddhism is taken up at the end of a person's life. And finally, as stated above, the merit of Dharma practice in this Sahaloka far surpasses the merit of Dharma practice in Sukhavati.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, it is really is not a quick path to full buddhahood unless you are born as someone of grade 1, according to the scheme you present. And this 500 human year period applies even to those who have committed the five misdeeds of immediate retribution, etc. By contrast, according to your scheme as presented, buddhahood in Sukhavati for such people takes 12 mahākalpas (720 minor kalpas), or twelve billion ninety-six million human years. So yeah, Sukhavati is a slow path according to Sūtrayāna norms and a human perspective.

Astus said:
From an ordinary human perspective it might seem slow, but from the individual's perspective even those of the worst character spend only 12 days enclosed in a lotus (and even there there is no suffering). Furthermore, if we accept that there are teachings that can liberate in this human life, it is so much easier to accomplish the same in Sukhavati.

Malcolm wrote:
It is still a slow path. Millions upon millions of years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Shinran was wrong. His assertion cannot be defended either thorough citation or through reasoning.

Astus said:
Not wrong, if it is understood that the various grades of the practitioners is valid from the human perspective but not in Sukhavati.

'In the Pure Recompensed Land produced by the great vow, there is no distinction of grades and stages. In an instantaneous thought-moment one quickly realizes highest, perfect, true enlightenment. Hence, we say “crosswise transcendence.'
( http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/horai/kgss-c.htm, BDK ed: p 123)

'Those who wish to be born in the Pure Land are originally divided into nine classes, but [after they have been born there] there are no di›erences, just as the waters of the Tzu River and the Sheng River become of one taste [upon entering the sea]. How can we conceive of this?'
( http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/horai/kgss-e.htm, BDK ed: p 172)

'If the single thought of joy and gratitude is awakened in us,
We shall realize nirvana without severing our blind passions.
When ordinary people and sages as well as those who commit the [five] grave o›enses and abusers of the  [Right] Dharma are taken into the Vow,
They become one in spiritual attainment, just as many rivers become of one taste upon entering the sea.'
( http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/horai/kgss-b.htm, BDK ed: p 76)

Malcolm wrote:
None of these assertions are reasonable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 7:59 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Steel said:
According to Shinran one attains buddhahood instantaneously upon rebirth in sukhavati. It is both the easiest and fastest path in all of Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Shinran was wrong. His assertion cannot be defended either thorough citation or through reasoning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
LastLegend said:
To crazywisdom,
Let’s not pretend that there isn’t bad thought about superiority versus inferiority back and forth for decades and we still rock it this boat like it’s liberation. But Dharma travels around and returns.

Malcolm wrote:
Superior and inferior are relative. For someone who has no faith in Dzogchen, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in Vajrayāna, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in Chan, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in the gradual Mahāyāna path, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in pratyekabuddhayāna, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in srāvakayāna, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in Vedanta, etc., it is not a superior teaching, and so on.

Crazywisdom said:
I do not put much into faith. I need to experience results and then I can believe other reasonable claims made.

Malcolm wrote:
By "faith" I mean adhimokṣa, translated into Tibetan as "mos pa," which means confidence, interest, aspiration, faith, and so on. It is the first of the five indriyas, along with diligence, mindfulness, wisdom, and samadhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 6:27 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
Pure lands are said to be 500  super long times or so. I mean the yoga of two stages, yoga of rushen, etc. It is done as a teacher explains.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, when taking birth in the pure lands, there is no guarantee one will take rebirth in an open lotus. And even then, it takes thousands upon thousands of human years ( I figured it out once and reported the lenght of time somewhere in this board) to attain awakening. By contrast, Dzogchen teachings promise that if one takes birth in the pure lands as a result of having encountered and understood Dzogchen teachings, full awakening, buddhahood, will happen there in as little as 500 human years.

Crazywisdom said:
Who wants to sit on a Lotus for  500 years? Lets just  get the job done.

Malcolm wrote:
Most practitioners (99.999) will not attain rainbow body. A small number will achieve buddhahood at the time of death, most will attain buddhahood in the bardo of dharmatā, and the remainder will have to take rebirth in the natural nirmanakāya buddhafields. This is all laid out fairly straight forwardly in the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Toenail said:
Malcolm, what do you mean by understanding the teachings? Knowledge of the natural state? As in: 'you get it', when you are receiving DI?

Malcolm wrote:
As in, you comprehend the direct perception of dharmatā and you know what that means.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 5:55 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
clyde said:
they have had some direct realization.

Astus said:
Direct realisation of what? BTW, I think most people who stick with the Dharma do so because they find it beneficial. Whether that benefit is of mundane or transcendent nature is another issue.

clyde said:
“seeing one’s true nature”

Malcolm wrote:
What's that?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


climb-up said:
He doesn’t claim to be authorized by ChNN (THAT would not be believable) but by Lama Wangdor, whom I don’t know.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, that explains it.

climb-up said:
Does it? How so?
Was Lama Wangdor free with his authorizations, and/or political with his appointments?

Malcolm wrote:
It is explains who he claims authority from to teach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Matylda said:
True awakening is exteremely difficult today in zen. Compare to it, it is exteremly easy to become a zen teacher or even a zen master.

Malcolm wrote:
It is very difficult to find a genuinely awakened teacher in any tradition these days. We live in degenerate times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: In between Taoism and Buddhism
Content:
PeterC said:
That’s why I would be very cautious of anyone saying what Taoism is or maintains unless they’re doing so from a solid academic understanding of the daoist canon, which is a massive and complex corpus.

Malcolm wrote:
And 99% of it is still in Chinese.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


climb-up said:
He doesn’t claim to be authorized by ChNN (THAT would not be believable) but by Lama Wangdor, whom I don’t know.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, that explains it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Content:
Dan74 said:
everyone who deserved the name 'Zen teacher'

Astus said:
Zen teacher, as in anyone who somebody called a Zen teacher, or anyone who received such a title from an organisation, or what version do you mean?

clyde said:
Since I asked the question, I meant Zen teachers who have been authorized.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, how can you be sure the person who authorized a Zen teacher is qualified to do so. You are putting a lot of burden on a very tenuous chain of authority.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
climb-up said:
I thought I had asked this a long time ago, but I searched and am thinking that I mis-remembered.

Does anyone know if there was any relationship and/or interaction between ChNN and Taoist martial arts teacher Bruce Kumar Frantzis?
On the back of two Frantzis’ books there is an endorsement by ChNN. I know that sometimes publishers just try to get authors to endorse other authors books, but I haven’t really seen ChNNs endorsements on anyone else’s books so...

Frantzis is, apparently, authorized to teach Dzogchen, even though he publicly teaches Taoist ‘water method’ meditation. Perhaps they met in that capacity?

Malcolm wrote:
I met Frantzis once, in 1992, at the first ChNN retreat I attended. I have no idea if he was "authorized:" to teach Dzogchen (people make too big a deal out if this idea, which is mostly politics). But I can verify that he is someone who took teachings from ChNN. I don't recall seeing him in 1993, and I don't recall seeing him in retreats in Western Ma, Italy, or Tenerife. That does not mean he did not attend retreats in other places where I was absent. Some of ChNN's students from the '80s faded away in the early nineties, found other teachers more to their liking, etc. ChNN taught over 600 retreats during his lifetime. The only person who has at all of them was ChNN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 28th, 2020 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Pure lands are said to be 500  super long times or so. I mean the yoga of two stages, yoga of rushen, etc. It is done as a teacher explains.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, when taking birth in the pure lands, there is no guarantee one will take rebirth in an open lotus. And even then, it takes thousands upon thousands of human years ( I figured it out once and reported the lenght of time somewhere in this board) to attain awakening. By contrast, Dzogchen teachings promise that if one takes birth in the pure lands as a result of having encountered and understood Dzogchen teachings, full awakening, buddhahood, will happen there in as little as 500 human years.

Astus said:
There are some calculations and explanations given on how and why birth in Sukhavati is the fastest way https://purelanders.com/2011/12/10/the-fastest-way-to-buddhahood-is-via-birth-in-pure-land/. To that it might be added that all teachings are available there, and the realm is ideal to perfect them.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, it is really is not a quick path to full buddhahood unless you are born as someone of grade 1, according to the scheme you present. And this 500 human year period applies even to those who have committed the five misdeeds of immediate retribution, etc. By contrast, according to your scheme as presented, buddhahood in Sukhavati for such people takes 12 mahākalpas (720 minor kalpas), or twelve billion ninety-six million human years. So yeah, Sukhavati is a slow path according to Sūtrayāna norms and a human perspective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Statue of Buddha in bedroom
Content:
pemachophel said:
If one has taken refuge in the Three Jewels, then it's inappropriate to have sex in front of an image of the Buddha. I'm pretty sure it's classified as one of the sexual misconducts.

GrapeLover said:
Just for interest, noting to confirm that Kangyur Rinpoche does include it as sexual misconduct in his commentary to Treasury of Precious Qualities

Malcolm wrote:
Good thing we have an option on whether we follow that precept or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
LastLegend said:
To crazywisdom,
Let’s not pretend that there isn’t bad thought about superiority versus inferiority back and forth for decades and we still rock it this boat like it’s liberation. But Dharma travels around and returns.

Malcolm wrote:
Superior and inferior are relative. For someone who has no faith in Dzogchen, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in Vajrayāna, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in Chan, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in the gradual Mahāyāna path, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in pratyekabuddhayāna, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in srāvakayāna, it is not a superior teaching. For someone who has no faith in Vedanta, etc., it is not a superior teaching, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Who is Mahavairocana?
Content:
_johnarundel_ said:
I included this in the last forum, so I apologize if this is repetitive.  But, since it is titles "Who is Mahavairocana?"  I thought this dictionary entry explaining both would be helpful and relevant.

"Dictionary of Buddhist Terms and Concepts"
Vairocana [毘盧遮那]
A Buddha who appears in the Kegon, Bommo, and Dainichi sutras. The Kegon Sutra in particular describes his pure land, the Lotus Treasury World. A great image of Vairocana made of gold was erected at Todaiji Temple in Nara as a result of a vow made by Emperor Shomu in 743. It was consecrated in 752. The Shingon Sect equates Vairocana with its central deity, Mahavairocana. The Shingon teaching regards the entire universe as a manifestation of this Buddha. See Also Dainichi.
Dainichi [大日如来]: (Skt. Mahavairocana)
The Buddha worshiped in esoteric teaching. Often referred to as Dainichi Nyorai (Mahavairocana Tathagata). This Buddha is mentioned in the Dainichi and Kongocho Sutras. He is regarded as the Buddha in the Dharma Body or Property of the Law (Jap hosshin, Skt. Dharma-kaya) aspect who personifies the unchanging truth of all phenomena and is the source from which all other Buddha and Bodhisattvas spring. The esoteric teaching holds that Dainichi is always expounding the Law in this universe and that the common mortal can fuse his life with this Buddha through the practice of the three mysteries. Dainichi has two aspects, the Dainichi of the womb world who represents the fundamental truth of the universe, and the Dainichi of the Diamond Wolrd who represents wisdom. These two are fundamentally one. The Tendai and Shingon forms of esotericism differ in their interpretations of Dainichi. The former holds that Dainichi is the Property of the Law aspect, and Shakyamuni, the property of action aspect, of the same Buddha, while the latter maintains that they are two entirely distinct Buddhas.
The Shingon teaching regards the entire universe as a manifestation of this Buddha

Minobu said:
So does Malcolm accept we are in the Palm of MahaVairocana

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen teachings and Vajrayāna in general, we understand the five elements themselves to be tathāgatas. We understand the universe itself is the body of a Buddha. The reason we do not see this is that are we are temporally obscured.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: Who is Mahavairocana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In pre-Yogacāra Buddhism, there were only two kāyas: dharmakāya and rūpakāya.

In pre-Madhyamaka/PP Buddhism, there was only one kāya mentioned, dharmakāya, that referred to collected words of the Buddha.

Caoimhghín said:
I'm in a bit of disagreement with you here. PP Buddhism has two bodies: dharma and form, the same you give for "pre-Yogacara." These two bodies are in śrāvaka literature as well, in the suttas and āgamas.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, PP Buddhism has two kāyas.

There is no mention in the agamas and so on of any kāya other than dharmakāya. The notion of the rūpakāya as a thing is Mahāyāna in inception. Yes, of course the Buddha has a physical body, but when there is a reference to the dharmakāya in pre Mahāyāna literature, kāya is equivalent to skandha, i.e., dharmakāya = all the dharmaskandhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Ichinen Sanzen/Mahavairocana /Gohonzon/?Rigpa?
Content:
tkp67 said:
How can all buddha be recognized equally from a mortal perspective when mortality in and of it self is provisional?

I though this was a reason for the lotus, to remove that ignorance.

I have to consider I am way off base here.

Malcolm wrote:
All buddhas have the same realization, the dharmakāya. This means the source of all teachings of the buddhas can be considered to have a single source, buddhahood. But since there are infinite buddhas, there are infinite causes and conditions which leads to their buddhahood. Those infinite causes and conditions make it possible for them to teach infinite sentient beings in all dimensions.

Minobu said:
but They all are teaching the same thing , right /

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddhas all speak a single vajra word, which is heard differently by sentient beings of differing inclinations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Ichinen Sanzen/Mahavairocana /Gohonzon/?Rigpa?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Nembutsu is actually one of the oldest Buddhist practices, and is not necessarily connected to Amida Buddha. Its merely a contemplation on the buddha, whichever buddha one focuses on. I consider Daimoku and nembutsu practice. I don't know if others would agree.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is called Buddha anusmṛti, recollection of the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Buddha recollection will not result in Buddhahood in one life. Yoga does.

Astus said:
Do you mean anybody who did yoga - whatever that means - once for ten minutes attains buddhahood in this life? Or if one does yoga very well for thirty years, buddhahood is guaranteed to happen then? Because those who faithfully recite the name of Amitabha even just ten times are guaranteed to be born in Sukhavati, and once there, buddhahood is guaranteed as well, no fall back possible. So although one may practise yoga throughout one's life, unless buddhahood was actually attained, one should still aim to be born in Sukhavati.

As Thrangu Rinpoche says in chapter 12 of Luminous Clarity:

'To be reborn in most of the great pure realms, one needs an immeasurable store of merit. There is an exception to this, however, which is the pure realm of Sukhavati. Although it is hard to get in to an authentic pure realm, it is easy to be born into the realm of Sukhavati because of the aspiration of the Buddha Amitabha. So Karma Chagme advises us to make the intense aspiration to achieve rebirth in Sukhavati because if we are not born in a pure realm, then we might be reborn in one of the higher realms within samsara, which is still samsara. So we wish to achieve awakening through the practice of the generation and completion stages and the practice of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. But if this does not happen, we can ensure that we are reborn in a pure realm. We are therefore advised to aspire for a rebirth in Sukhavati.'

Crazywisdom said:
Pure lands are said to be 500  super long times or so. I mean the yoga of two stages, yoga of rushen, etc. It is done as a teacher explains.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, when taking birth in the pure lands, there is no guarantee one will take rebirth in an open lotus. And even then, it takes thousands upon thousands of human years ( I figured it out once and reported the lenght of time somewhere in this board) to attain awakening. By contrast, Dzogchen teachings promise that if one takes birth in the pure lands as a result of having encountered and understood Dzogchen teachings, full awakening, buddhahood, will happen there in as little as 500 human years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The easiest way to get into the pure lands is to receive complete Dzogchen teachings, understand them, and then fail to practice them. No prayers necessary.

Astus said:
Why would it be easier to learn and understand complete (what counts as complete?) Dzogchen teachings, instead of reciting Amitabha's name right now? Also, how can Dzogchen studies result in birth in Sukhavati, what is the cause for that?

Malcolm wrote:
You will have go and learn dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 9:14 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All of our beginningless past-life samsaric experience is actually stored in our present physical form, which is the expression of traces of karma and affliction.

Astus said:
Actually stored as physical elements, or some version of avijnapti-rupa, or is it more like there is a correlation between the alayavijnana and the body?

Malcolm wrote:
As kinks and knots in our channels.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 8:01 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
So I take it that mind is your fifth element when you say this, not akash.

What is akash in your tradition, to the degree that the answer is exoteric?

Malcolm wrote:
Space is the fifth element.

Caoimhghín said:
Okay. Well, you've got to be slower with me in particular then. When you said "because all of the elements contain the other elements," you were counting mind, right? That is how the "mind-made" gandharva can contain the other elements, I presumed.

I am familiar with a six-element system: earth, water, fire, air, space, mind.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I was only counting the five elements, space  through earth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
When people speak of the gandharva as a body of "subtle form" one acquires in the antarabhava, is "subtle" a Westernism or are they translating something?

Malcolm wrote:
The body of a gandharva is principally formed of vāyu/mind. It is a so called "mental body." But even the body of a bardo being is made of five elements; because all of the elements contain the other elements.

Caoimhghín said:
So I take it that mind is your fifth element when you say this, not akash.

What is akash in your tradition, to the degree that the answer is exoteric?

Malcolm wrote:
Space is the fifth element.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 5:55 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Astus said:
But if this does not happen, we can ensure that we are reborn in a pure realm. We are therefore advised to aspire for a rebirth in Sukhavati.'[/i]

Malcolm wrote:
The easiest way to get into the pure lands is to receive complete Dzogchen teachings, understand them, and then fail to practice them. No prayers necessary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
I won't lie, but I did have a response to that effect. I try to give tantra the benefit of the doubt though. "We use the body for practice" is a difficult statement because it is so vague.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, my post was meant to address any ambiguities about what this means.

Caoimhghín said:
Most practice, generally speaking, is embodied. "We use the passions for practice" seems more like a tantric slogan, but that is as a non-tantrika outsider looking in.

Is "We use the body for practice" a slogan because of Vajrayāna's preoccupation with āyurveda and working with the subtle body? In that case, "We use the subtle body for practice" might be more accurate.

Malcolm wrote:
There is really no such thing as a "subtle body." This term is a western term.

Everything in the body is made of the five elements, there is nothing in the body that is not composed from the five elements.

Caoimhghín said:
When people speak of the gandharva as a body of "subtle form" one acquires in the antarabhava, is "subtle" a Westernism or are they translating something?

Malcolm wrote:
The body of a gandharva is principally formed of vāyu/mind. It is a so called "mental body." But even the body of a bardo being is made of five elements; because all of the elements contain the other elements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Meido said:
Of course Zen - like Japanese mikkyo (Shingon, Tendai, Shugen) - lacks the same understanding of channels and chakras that developed  in later vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
To put it succinctly, the reason we have four empowerments in HYT is that we have what are called the four mandalas: the nāḍīs, nāḍī syllables, bindu, and vāyu.

The dependent origination of the human body begins with the ālayavijñāna mounted upon what is known as the "great prāṇavāyu" merging with the reproductive material of a male and a female. The mind is not differentiable from the vāyu (aka winds or airs) in any meaningful way. Thus, the newly formed zygote is shaped through the internal movement of vāyu/mind and its movement forms nāḍis in the body, which are in the form of syllables, filled with bindus, that are propelled by vāyu over the process of human gestation.

The shape of our body, our perception of the world, our thoughts, afflictive disposition and so on is largely governed by this anatomy. So, to recap: based on conception there is the mandala of vāyu; based on the reproductive material of the parents, there is the mandala of bindu. Based on the formation of knots (grantha) in the naḍīs, there are syllables. And finally, based on the full development of the human body there is the external structure of the nāḍī system, which one should understand as the arteries, blood vessels, and nervous system in the human body, These nāḍīs contain the other three elements, the syllables, bindus, and vāyus. The four empowerments are the purifier of the basis purification, these four mandalas. If we fail to attain buddhahood during the empowerment, then we have the method of practicing sadhanas with the creation and completion stage. The creation stage has two parts: the outer creation stage and the inner creation stage. The outer creation stage purifies afflictions of our bardo experiences, conceptions, gestations and deaths from beginningless lifetime, and all the activities of daily life, eating, sleeping, wearing clothes, sex, etc. The inner creation acts as a purifier for the four mandalas described above. However, creation stage is not sufficient for buddhahood, though it is sufficient for awakening on the impure bhumis. For buddhahood, one needs to practice the completion stage practices with its prāṇāyāma practices, sexual yogas [which frankly are a lot of work and not really that erotic], etc., because the creation stage is largely a conceptual samadhi framework, unifying appearance and emptiness, while the completion stage is what takes one beyond mind with nonconceptual samadhi of clarity and emptiness, bliss and emptiness, and great bliss and emptiness, also known as the connate. The completion stage is how one enters the state called sahajajñāna or mahāmudra.

Cakras in the body are places where arteries, nerves, and blood vessels all work together to produce various major functions in the body: the brain for example is understood to govern sense cognition, hence it is called the mahasukha cakra, the cakra of great bliss. The throat cakra governs speech, swallowing, and so on, hence it is called the sambogacakra. The heart cakra governs consciousness and circulation, hence it is called the dharmacakra; the navel cakra governs metabolism and the development of the body, hence it is called the nirmanacakra, and there is another mahāsukha cakra in the genital region that governs reproduction.

The crown cakra represents the nirmankāya and is the basis for its realization; the throat cakra represents the sambhogakāya and is the basis for its realization. The heart cakra represents the dharmak̄ya and governs it realization. The navel cakra represents the svabhavakāya, and governs its realization. The four empowerments condition these four cakras and plant the seed of the four kāyas in them.

The knots formed in the nạ̄dīs because of our karma and affliction govern how we perceive the world. For example, there is a nāḍī in the body, which, if one's vāyu gets "stuck" there, will cause one to experience the world as a preta experiences the world. The idea here is that all of our experience of the six lokas is actually predicated on our bodies and how it is formed. Therefore, the way to prevent rebirth in the six lokas is to purify all causes for rebirth in the six lokas through understanding the dependent origination of the body.

All of our beginningless past-life samsaric experience is actually stored in our present physical form, which is the expression of traces of karma and affliction. Therefore, the Buddha has taught us that the fastest way to eliminate all karma and affliction as well as is traces is to use the body as our method. Not only that, but through the use of physical bliss, and various types of prāṇāyāma, one can rapidly induce profound samadhis that in sūtric contexts take not only years to develop but lifetimes, because the process of advancing on the paths and stages over many lifetimes corresponds to a bodhisattva taking birth in more and more refined bodies until such bodhisattvas cease taking birth in upper half of the desire realm at all after the eighth bhumiu is realized. This process of constant rebirth is bypassed in Vajrayāna, because in Vajrayāna one works directly with the dependent origination of the body inwardly, not outwardly. It is for this reason that Vajrayāna asserts its superior ability to lead a superior practitioner to full buddhahood, characterized as freedom and omniscience, within a single lifetime. Rather than predicating its practice on renunciation; Vajrayāna predicates its approach on transformation; therefore, Vajrayāna practitioners do not need to abandon using meat, alcohol, sexual activity, etc., as they must in common Mahayāna. These activities are all transformed in the context of the sadhana practice. The process of attaining buddhahood is based on the increasingly subtle states of samadhi which are cultivated in each of the completion stage practices, which are connected with the process of straightening the knots of the nāḍīs, then purifying the bindus, and finally, working with the vāyu mandala in the end. The samadhi associated with these three stages of completion practice are increasingly more subtle. While a consort, whether physical or visualized, is not necessary for the first of these three phases, in many Vajrayāna systems it is argued that one is needed for the final two phases of completion stage practice if one is to attain buddhahood in this life. Also the consort has to be the same level of practitioner as oneself. For example, an unawakened bodhisattva cannot have an awakened consort, and vice versa. Some Vajrayānas systems however claim that such a consort is not needed at all. So there are some arguments about this issue.

Thus, the whole point of this kind of HYT practice, to put it plainly, is to reverse dependent origination of the body/mind complex in toto through practices that are directly based on the anatomy of the human body, understood through how it develops in the process of gestation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Very frustrating.

Well, I don’t expect you to do it all over.

I would just ask you if I’ve said anything wrong in my above post....

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, I was just writing some clarification, in order to forestall the inevitable "we use the body for practice too" response.

Caoimhghín said:
I won't lie, but I did have a response to that effect. I try to give tantra the benefit of the doubt though. "We use the body for practice" is a difficult statement because it is so vague.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, my post was meant to address any ambiguities about what this means.

Caoimhghín said:
Most practice, generally speaking, is embodied. "We use the passions for practice" seems more like a tantric slogan, but that is as a non-tantrika outsider looking in.

Is "We use the body for practice" a slogan because of Vajrayāna's preoccupation with āyurveda and working with the subtle body? In that case, "We use the subtle body for practice" might be more accurate.

Malcolm wrote:
There is really no such thing as a "subtle body." This term is a western term.

Everything in the body is made of the five elements, there is nothing in the body that is not composed from the five elements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 27th, 2020 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Longchenpa's View on Alcohol?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
I remember seeing a post to the effect that his praise of alcohol was supposedly satire....

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it satirized all the people who drank secretly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Very frustrating.

Well, I don’t expect you to do it all over.

I would just ask you if I’ve said anything wrong in my above post....

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, I was just writing some clarification, in order to forestall the inevitable "we use the body for practice too" response.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: What is Buddhahood?
Content:
bcol01 said:
When you "achieve" Buddhahood, is it temporary?

How do you know you have achieve it?

Malcolm wrote:
If you are in doubt, you are not awakened. But some deluded people think they are awakened, when they are not. Other deluded people come up with intellectual tricks to explain why their deluded activity is awakened, etc. There are many pitfalls.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Longchenpa's View on Alcohol?
Content:
EmptyLightfulness said:
I have been thinking that Longchenpa always praised alcohol. But I read in somewhere that he gave up alcohol in his later years, is this true or not? Thanks.

"From Longchenpa's final testament, Immaculate Light:

As alcohol and lovers are the source of afflictive emotions,

Abandon the mind that craves and obsesses over them.

Emulating the way of the sages,"

Malcolm wrote:
Not advice for himself, but his immediate students.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: What is Buddhahood?
Content:
bcol01 said:
How would you describe it to someone who isn't familiar with Buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a state where one is free from all afflictions and possess all knowledge relevant to how to obtain freedom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
The point is, that in Vajrayana & Dzogchen you work with the body.

If one is a practitioner of Vajrayana or Dzogchen, you can at least ward off Vajra hell with daily Hundred-Syllable recitations and so on; however for something to really “happen” in this lifetime, you need the methods for working with the body somehow (the details of which are of course not up for public discussion).

As Malcolm said:


Malcolm wrote:
...Then, having stabilized the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, one is considered qualified to move onto creation and completion stage practices. Parallel to this is the pervasive practice of guru yoga, which is also predicated in the direct introduction found in major empowerments or alternately, in Dzogchen direct introductions. Here, the point is fundamentally the same, the recognition and equipoise in a moment of unfabricated consciousness. Preliminary even to these practices, in the Sakya system one is supposed to practice quite a bit of yantra yoga and prāṇāyāma before even beginning to mediate the view  of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, though this approach is seldom followed in modern times.
Damn, I was writing a long addendum to this, but somehow, a mis-stroke on the keyboard blew it all away.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Genuine advice sought.
Content:
Matt J said:
I would not relegate experience to some second class status. Official "authority" is no indication of experience or realization. And experience is often taught to be the bridge between intellectual understanding and permanent realization.

Malcolm wrote:
Experiences are mind; mind is relative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: After the Protests: Defund the Police
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
While this is Fox News' notion of anarchy, it remains a great song:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: After the Protests: Defund the Police
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And who can forget:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 3:43 AM
Title: Re: After the Protests: Defund the Police
Content:



Grigoris said:
Modern Anarchists unfortunately tend to be more life-stylists than political/social actors.  I blame the early punk movement (and it's commercialisation) for this.

Malcolm wrote:
Ahhh...the sounds of my youth:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Non-conceptual
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
free of all proliferation
What does this mean?

Malcolm wrote:
It means that one has no conceptual proliferation concerning the existence or nonexistence of things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: After the Protests: Defund the Police
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
The quality level of this experiment was not high, I don't think, and only made national news because it's good fodder for the culture wars.

Malcolm wrote:
Which are sputtering, since Biden is not a good candidate to try and wage a culture against. He's white, he is not leftist, and unlike Trump, he is a lawyer and actually understands the Constitution and the law in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 26th, 2020 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:


Meido said:
We do see people like Hakuin describing internal cultivation in terms of Sino-Japanese medical theory and so on, but that just speaks to the tools at hand in his day.

Malcolm wrote:
Occam's razor.


Meido said:
No idea when concern with these things entered into Chan circles. If we are to believe that the episode partly recorded in Mumonkan case 40 actually occurred, then that means late 8th/early 9th century:

Malcolm wrote:
If you have had a chance to read Van Schaik's book, Tibetan Zen, it is pretty clear that there were Chan Buddhists in Dun Huang who were interested in the Vajayāna systems that were being promulgated in Tibet. What is equally interesting to note, is that they were pretty clear on the differences between the two systems and did not seek to conflate them.

The term "direction introduction" is a term that was coined by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche as a translation of " rang ngo thog du sprad." As a translation, the term really only translates " thog tu sprad." " Rang ngo " literally means "one's face." Sprad pa means "to introduce" in the sense of meeting ( sprod) face to face ( ngo ). So whose state or face is one being introduced to? One's face ( rang ngo ).

In Kagyu Mahāmudra, the term ngo sprod, usually translated in their texts as "pointing out" is used. While the term ngo sprod is used in all schools for introduction, not all introductions are the same. Some are very gradual, like Karma Kagyu Mahāmudra. Others, like Dzogchen direct introduction, or literally Introducing one's own state (literally "face") are sudden. But also these kinds of sudden direct introductions also exist in Mahāmudra, since Mahāmudra, like Dzogchen, is a path of self-liberation (rang grol). Mahamudra is often introduced more gradually than Dzogchen in general, but it is actually a cig car ba, or sudden entry path like Dzogchen, and like Dzogchen, can be introduced immediately. Really, the main difference between Mahāmudra and Dzogchen is that the former is based on the tantras and dohas of the 9th and 10th century mahāsiddhas, and Dzogchen is based on the tantras and dohas of 7th and 8th century mahāsiddhas. I suppose some would like to argue that Chan is based in the teachings of a 5th century mahāsiddha, Bodhidharma.

Just a note about your experience with Tulku Orgyen—in general, this kind of introduction is the basis of the path. In Dzogchen teachings, one starts there. The experience discovered in that introduction is taken as the basis, upon which the student then works with the teacher to gain confidence in the experience of the introduction. Though Dzogchen is a part of secret mantra, early Nyingmapa authors like Rongzom make it extremely clear that those who did not understand or grasp the introduction right away may practice either mantra practices or regular śamatha and vipaśyanā combined with Dzogchen view. This is known in Dzogchen teachings as the indirect path.

Further, having received introduction, one is then permitted to use various methods to stabilize one's experience of introduction.  But the key point is that in order to begin the Dzogchen path, or even general secret mantra, one must receive direct introduction in the beginning.

Thus, upon receiving direct introduction, one is then authorized to engage in many practices which are used to stabilize the experience of the introduction; and in fact serve as a means where the student then becomes responsible for directly encountering their own state ( rang ngo thog du sprad ). So, while direct introduction is the entry way into the path of Dzogchen teachings and some people get it right away (but such people are rare as stars in the daytime), if the average person does not cultivate the experience of direct introduction somewhat systematically, then Dzogchen remains something like a fantasy.

When we come to regular secret mantra, in Path and Result system of the Sakyapa, before one can even begin to meditate on the so-called creation stage, one is to meditate on what is known as the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana. Without going into detail, the point is that one is using the experience of the introduction during the four empowerments as the basis for cultivating the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana. This view is not an intellectual view, but is the recognition and equipoise in a moment of unfabricated consciousness, sometimes referred to as "ordinary mind" ( tha mal gyi shes pa ). Then, having stabilized the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, one is considered qualified to move onto creation and completion stage practices. Parallel to this is the pervasive practice of guru yoga, which is also predicated in the direct introduction found in major empowerments or alternately, in Dzogchen direct introductions. Here, the point is fundamentally the same, the recognition and equipoise in a moment of unfabricated consciousness. Preliminary even to these practices, in the Sakya system one is supposed to practice quite a bit of yantra yoga and prāṇāyāma before even beginning to mediate the view  of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, though this approach is seldom followed in modern times.

One important point we should not overlook is that this "ordinary mind" is really the same point being addressed in Dzogchen trekchö, the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, mahāmudra, and so on. The basis for cultivating this ordinary mind is nothing other than some kind of introduction where the teacher uses specific experiences to guide to student to encounter their own state. Such experience of introduction is absolutely crucial, because even if the student did not grasp the introduction at the time it was given, they were guided in this experience and this experience (which could be either physical bliss, clarity, or nonconceptuality) is used as the springboard for students to encounter their own state directly. Very intelligent people, like Mañjuśṛīmitra, Śṛī Simha, etc., can understand the meaning of Dzogchen merely through symbols. Knowledge about this kind of Dzogchen transmission is preserved mainly in the teachings called the Vajra Bridge, connected with the so-called "space series."

Thus, as far as I know, based on what people who have trained in Rinzai Zen in Japan for many years during the 1960's and who have also practiced in Gelug, Sakya, and Kagyu, and Nyingma, this system of direct introduction does not exist in modern Zen. But is possible their training was not very complete.

It also did not exist in the 9th century, when Nubchen Sangye Yeshe wrote his Illuminating the Eye of Samadhi ( bsam gtan mig sgron ), where he systematically goes through gradualism, sudden entry (Chan), Mahāyoga, and Dzogchen. This is why I have been saying that Chan/Zen is sutric, not because I think sūtra is bad or inferior, but because the method of entry in sūtra and tantra are quite different, and the method of entry of the latter is not found in the former. Not only do we have direct introduction in Tibetan Vajrayāna, but this system exists in the highest levels of Shingon, where I have been informed, the final abhiṣeka rite one undergoes in one's training is called the "formless abiṣeka." We also have the example our Matylda, who asserted some years ago on this forum, that in Soto Zen, at the higher levels of training in Japan, there are also Mikkyo rites which are not shared outside the inner circles of the highest ranks of Shingon priests, which she related were the highest teachings in that school. The presence of such methods in Rinzai would not surprise me in the least. But the key point here, with respect to Shingon and Soto, is that these methods are drawn from the tantras, not sūtra.

The lack of documentation of such methods in Soto and Rinzai, apart from anecdotal accounts from you and Matylda tend to confirm my teacher, Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's opinion, which is that modern Zen has been very influenced by Vajrayāna Buddhism. He even went to so far once as to opine that he thought that Zen had been directly influenced by Dzogchen teachings. For example, we have a Tibetan Dzogchen master, Aro Yeshe Jungney, who lived at the end of the tenth century and into the 11th, who is said to have combined the teachings of Hashang Mohoyen with Dzogchen, though it is not completely certain he interacted with any Chinese teachers directly. On the other hand, even though it is claimed in late historical documents that Chan Buddhism was exiled from Tibet, the reality of it is that disciples of Chan Buddhist masters in Tibet very likely continued to practice Chan alongside Vajrayāna until Chan was really brought into disrepute in 11th century polemical writings like the Testament of Ba, which is one of the sources for the Samye Debate. And we have the Chan sayings of a few Tibetan Chan masters preserved in Nubchen's text.

However, I am pretty certain that such methods were not present in Tang Dynasty Chan prior to arrival of Esoteric Buddhism to China in the mid 8th century, at the same time Vajrayāna Buddhism was being transmitted to Tibet.

Unfortunately, in Tibetan Buddhism, empowerments and so on have become so rote and routine, teachers often do not make this point about direct introduction clear to their students, and the Gelugpas, following Sakya Pandita, even reject the system of direct introduction all together as a sufficient introduction to Vajrayāna.

So, these are the reasons why I say what I said about Chan etc., above, and I also recognize that nothing human beings do remains fixed and static, as much as we pretend that Dharma teachings are "brought down from the mountain" like the ten commandments or the Quran, never to be altered or questioned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Arhats as imperfect
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
Where did the idea come from that "arhats still have subtle obstacles". For instance, it is said that they have a "very subtle self-centeredness".

Malcolm wrote:
Sutras like the Lankāvatāra, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: Non-conceptual
Content:
avatamsaka3 said:
What does it mean to have a "direct, non-conceptual view of emptiness"? How can this non-conceptual characteristic be described? And which classical sources describe this view as the goal?

Malcolm wrote:
It means that one's mind has become completely free of all proliferation.

As for the second question, too many to mention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: After the Protests: Defund the Police
Content:
Queequeg said:
ChNNR's teacher's gar sounded pretty utopian.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and when the Chinese rolled into that village they just renamed it, since they could not find any kulaks or aristocrats to murder.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
The research was done by   HH Chetsang R. He is   some Tibetan.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but he uses exclusively Tibetan historical accounts, which are none too reliable past the 11th century.

Crazywisdom said:
The  Americans are not a lineage yet. Vajrayana is  taught in a lineage. Chan clearly has  features of   Vajrayana. A Vajrayana lineage might know more  about that than some Americans.

Malcolm wrote:
CHan clearly has features of a lineage transmission, but not a Vajrayana lineage. In any case, much of what I have written above was taught by Norbu Rinpoche. So, you can choose to follow Chetsang Rinpoche’s research; I’ll stick to my root guru’s research.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Astus said:
Could you be more specific about what you mean here by direct introduction?

Malcolm wrote:
No. If you want to find out what direct introduction is, you need to go meet a teacher of dzogchen, or receive a major empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Bristollad said:
Yes, Tsongkhapa disagrees with Sonam Tsemo's position explicitly.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, so one has a choice of opinion to follow. I follow Sonam Tsomo on this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 11:11 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Nixon was full of it for sure, based on what little I’ve read.

In any case, I do not think that Malcolm X ever supported democrats.

In fact, it seems that he was assassinated only days after he criticized them.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, by the Nation of Islam. They’d been trying to kill him for some time.

MLK delegitimized racist violence through his nonviolent approach, hence he was murdered by white racists. Malcolm X, on the other hand, legitimized white violence through his militancy, so white supremacists had more to gain by keeping him alive than killing him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 11:04 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Sādhaka said:
And Malcolm X was no fan of democrats.

Malcolm wrote:
That was pre-Nixon. From Nixon onward, the Dixiecrat racists began to bail on the Democrats, and joined the GOP. This has been immortalized as Nixon’s Southern Strategy. But Nixon himself was a racist old bitch.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 10:58 AM
Title: Re: After the Protests: Defund the Police
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
It's like Occupy, a spontaneous demonstration turning into a long term civil disobedience thing that aims at creating something new. Will it succeed? No, I'm sure it won't, but there's a seed of something there, as well as a lot of dumbass stuff.

So like anything it's a mixed bag, I won't throw it out entirely though, utopian dreamers are needed for a better future, among other things:



As far as the reparations thing, I'm sure there are people saying all kinds of stuff all over the CHAZ, it's probably half people just ranting. This story in particular got picked up for a reason, because it has the dual purpose of further de-legitimizing CHAZ -and- stroking racial animus.

Malcolm wrote:
CHAZ was a media-hyped moment of hysteria. There is not now, nor was there eve, a CHAZ.

Johnny Dangerous said:
It actually existed. No one here batted an eye about it really, it was minor and part of the overall protest thing. I do think things like that deserve credit, despite usually being a bit naive, it is people generally trying new methods of organization. It's not lasting, but it's something and I think gives people a faint glimpse of different possibilities.

Malcolm wrote:
Raz Simone maintains that the media got all hyped about a cardboard sign someone put up, and ran with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 10:07 AM
Title: Re: The Bee Gathering Nectar From Many Flowers vs The Musk Deer Hunter
Content:



Cinnabar said:
I get the story.

The part I don't get is the inequality that one should not see a teacher unless one's interest in the teacher exceeds that in the teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, this is my experience. YMMV.

Cinnabar said:
Is there a fault in my experience of meeting a teacher I didn’t know for a teaching I really could not contextualize... driven, by what, I really have no idea, certainly not “interest”, which requires knowledge... and practicing and studying with him for 20 years now?

Seems there are other connections to teachers beyond “interest”.

An inexplicable pull, a draw. An attraction. Just karmically being compelled, like a voice in one’s head: I need to be there, no matter what, not sure even what it is, who he is, just need to be there...

Malcolm wrote:
I was responding to a specific question posed in a precise way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 9:33 AM
Title: Re: Kosa Reading Group ii b: Introduction by Poussin
Content:
PeterC said:
It shouldn’t be controversial that animals can create and exhaust karma.  It’s difficult to achieve the merit for a human birth in the animal realm - which implies of course that it’s possible. Higher animals demonstrate social activity, adherence to codes of behavior, in the case of elephants even something close to funerary rites.

The question is whether the offences of immediate retribution function in the same way in the animal realm.  Does vipaka function in the same way?  Do the offences have such serious consequences because in part a human should understand how serious they are - and can an animal be expected to understand that too? Can all animals?

Malcolm wrote:
Animal karma is weaker because their discrimination, memory, etc. is much weaker, and thus their ability to generate various karmas is more limited. But we are way ahead of ourselves here. These issues are not discussed until well into chapter 4.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 9:29 AM
Title: Re: After the Protests: Defund the Police
Content:
TharpaChodron said:
How do you all feel about this? I’m just curious. Do we have a popcorn emoji?

https://nypost.com/2020/06/13/protester-in-seattles-chaz-demands-white-people-give-out-cash/

Johnny Dangerous said:
It's like Occupy, a spontaneous demonstration turning into a long term civil disobedience thing that aims at creating something new. Will it succeed? No, I'm sure it won't, but there's a seed of something there, as well as a lot of dumbass stuff.

So like anything it's a mixed bag, I won't throw it out entirely though, utopian dreamers are needed for a better future, among other things:

Ursula K. LeGuin said:
“We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings. Resistance and change often begin in art, and very often in our art, the art of words.”

Johnny Dangerous said:
As far as the reparations thing, I'm sure there are people saying all kinds of stuff all over the CHAZ, it's probably half people just ranting. This story in particular got picked up for a reason, because it has the dual purpose of further de-legitimizing CHAZ -and- stroking racial animus.

Malcolm wrote:
CHAZ was a media-hyped moment of hysteria. There is not now, nor was there eve, a CHAZ.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 9:26 AM
Title: Re: The Bee Gathering Nectar From Many Flowers vs The Musk Deer Hunter
Content:
mandog said:
You understand that the person in this story was lying to his gurus in order to trick them into giving him a practice that he was then likely going to use to harm sentient beings?

Cinnabar said:
I get the story.

The part I don't get is the inequality that one should not see a teacher unless one's interest in the teacher exceeds that in the teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, this is my experience. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 9:12 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are some similarities between Chan rhetoric and Dzogchen rhetoric. But the important difference identified by Nubchen is direct introduction.

SilenceMonkey said:
Interesting... So you're saying that any system without direct introduction is "sutra"?

Malcolm wrote:
By definition.


SilenceMonkey said:
But the essence is in the master's instructions, and in often wordless interactions between master and disciple.

Malcolm wrote:
Thus feature does not distinguish Chan/zen as unique among common Mahayana schools. Buddhism in general is an oral tradition. Texts exist merely to supplement that oral tradition. One cannot learn Dharma from books, but of course one can learn about Buddhism from books. Dharma and Buddhism however are not the same thing.




SilenceMonkey said:
Ch'an might call this naturalness 自然 or abiding in non-abiding 住而不住... or just awareness 覺知. I don't see why there wouldn't be parallel experiences in ch'an or zen. Anyway I'm with you, the language doesn't capture subtle and wordless experience.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, this principle is not explained in sutras. It’s not even explained clearly in Mahayoga and Anuyoga. Where Dzogchen, Zen, and the perfection of wisdom meet is in the original purity of all phenomena. But the similarities end there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 7:21 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In sūtra, the nature of the mind, to use your term, is the result of the path, whether gradual or not, not the basis. In sūtra, one does not start at the nature of the mind because it is never directly introduced and no methods are provided for such an introduction.

SilenceMonkey said:
I'm not so sure that the mind's emptiness nature isn't the basis for practice. Many ch'an masters emphasize ch'an as a practice of sitting in the buddha nature. I've heard told that Ch'an masters of old were more able practice ch'an without a method or path, although these days it must be used in tandem with a method to focus the mind.

Malcolm wrote:
There are some similarities between Chan rhetoric and Dzogchen rhetoric. But the important difference identified by Nubchen is direct introduction. All the people I have met, who have done extensive Zen practice (quite a few who have gone through koan practice under Maizumi Roshi and others), agree that direct introduction as practiced in Vajrayāna does not exist in Zen. Apart from having done a weekend sit with the now-disgraced Eido Roshi when I was 16, I have no personal experience with Zen, and I am sure any Zen master would kick me out for being lazy, obstreperous, and arrogant.

Another important distinction is that in sūtra based system, there is no explanation of what is termed lhun grub, sometimes is translated as spontaneous presence, self-perfected, and so on, but these English translation do not really get at the meaning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 7:13 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Meido said:
To be honest, I actually think no Zen practitioner really cares much if Zen is called sutric or not, or how other traditions categorize its approach. Why should they?

Malcolm wrote:
They shouldn't.

Meido said:
Zen is clear as to its own relationship with the sutras as well as its method. For example:
If you study the sutra teachings, you easily get stuck in the traces of the teachings. How then can you slough off your old body? ... Our patriarchal Zen school does not depend on the traces of the teachings [the sutras], but has a special meaning: energy, free and unobstructed, responding in accord with the situation, that is what it is about. ... Nowadays there is much talk about the sublime and the profound, or conversely criticism of the Two Vehicles, belittling their authority. [Students of] the partial, the round, the exoteric and the exoteric schools contend with each other, yet they have not even accomplished the confirmation of the Two Vehicles, let alone that of the Bodhisattva Vehicle. And as for the One Buddha Vehicle, how could they conceive of it even in their dreams? What use to them then are the partial, round, exoteric, and esoteric [teachings]? ... None of this applies to our patriarchal school, which surpasses expedient means. When by bitter interviews and painful training at last the principle is attained, the then Buddhadharma of the exoteric and esoteric schools appears directly before the eyes.
[Torei, Shumon Mujintoron]

Malcolm wrote:
These considerations are not disputed.

Meido said:
Regarding actual method,

"energy, free and unobstructed, responding in accord with the situation" refers to the direct pointing activity of the teacher, which encompasses not only various transmitted methods for this purpose but also (in fact, mainly) the general effect on the student's conditions of the teachers ba [proximity, field], the function of which is described in terms of, and dependent upon, kiai [energetic quality and intensity] and joriki [samadhi power]. Related to this are various physical manifestations of realization described in oral instruction that mark a qualified teacher, and which impact the ability of the student to catch certain things. If we are discussing post-kensho practice, these things remain important since the teacher must be able to manifest an embodied fruition of various practices that the student takes up.

Malcolm wrote:
I have no reason to doubt that these things are important in the Rinzai Zen tradition.

Meido said:
"bitter interviews" refers to the core method of Zen, i.e. sanzen [face to face encounter with the teacher].
"painful training" refers to the post-kensho path. Hakuin and Torei unpack this pretty clearly with reference to Tozan's 5 ranks, with explanation of what realization of the 4 wisdoms/3 bodies within this body and life means in Zen practice, describing the practice after recognition of one's nature for which the secret 3-year [minimum] practices of hokkyo zanmai and hen sho ego zanmai are the main points, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
In other words, Chan/Zen is causal path.

Meido said:
But you can't practice only from those writings: they are meant to be taken up in the sanzen room with one's teacher, who can manifest the fruition-states of the practices.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure.

Meido said:
Of course many other methods supporting all this exist. In Rinzai practice the core thing is tanden soku, i.e. the method of sealing the breath power in the lower abdomen through a physical usage of the anal sphincter, pelvic floor, and diaphragm, retaining that for longer and longer periods until it becomes constant and subtle. There are various reasons for this, and Hakuin writes about it quite a bit (though again, without giving complete practice details).

Malcolm wrote:
In Vajrayāna, this is called 'jam rlung (gentle breath), and it means maintaining this "seal" as you put it, constantly. There are more forceful methods, but this is considered to be essential for all practice in all traditions. These kinds of prāṇayāma practices are written about extensively in Vajrayāna. They are of consummate importance.

Hakuin lived in late 17th century and early 18th century. I would not be surprised at all if Indian methods of prāṇāyāma had spread widely in Chinese and Japanese monasteries by this time, either from Tibetan sources or even Shingon (which is ), or even Taoist sources, since Japanese medicine is largely Taoist in nature.

Meido said:
See how that all needed to be unpacked? I mean, if someone is really interested in method, I can talk a lot about it. But most of the details regarding what one actually does in genuine Zen practice remain solely in the realm of kuden (oral instruction). Zen is just not a tradition that is big on explicit written practice instruction.

Malcolm wrote:
This is also the case with Vajrayāna—but these things were written down because people forget them.

Meido said:
It is ironic, but at this point I think it is easier for anyone to research details of, for example, various HYT practices than it is to find accurate information RE what actually passes between teacher and student in a sanzen room.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but of course you will readily understand that without oral explanation the written instructions are incomplete. The written instructions are for reference.

Meido said:
FWIW sutras were never much used as a reference in my experience except for just a few passages that, along with many Zen writings, were accompanied by additional verbal explanation (in sanzen, during teisho) explaining some specific practice application. For example, a passage from the Vimalakirti sutra pointing out a use of the body that has utility.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, this is understandable. The Tibetan description of sūtra vs. tantra, sudden/gradual has less to do with the textual traditions than it does method of entry.

Meido said:
So at the end of the day, is it all sutric or not? No problem to me to say so. It's not tantric, so call it sutric, or non-tantric upadesha, or whatever one likes that best fit the categories that one accepts. But the only important point to me is the oral instructions from one's teacher in whom one has great faith, which clarify the Zen writings and transmit practice details. It's hard to talk much about Zen in any useful manner without having those (though certainly common enough - even among some Zen folks).

Malcolm wrote:
I agree, which is why I rarely discuss Chan or Zen.

But when people make statements wondering what all the fuss is about, it is useful to consider the perspectives of Tibetans, like Nubchen, who trained in Tang-era Chan as well as Vajrayāna during the late 8th and the 9th century, both in Tibet, as well as the fertile and ecumenical environment of Dunhuang. While the Chan they encountered is certainly not the same as the Post-Song era school of Rinzai to which you belong, they are related and so their accounts are of interest to those who wish to understand the overall differences, claims. and counterclaims, made  by its various adherents.

Anyway, thanks for your input, always valued.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
The  Drikung lineage teaches  Bodhiharma  had a  vajrayana lineage, hence the pointing out by  a teacher thing, but it was mostly lost,and it is  a broken lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because some Tibetans conflate Bodhidharma with Padampa Sangye.

Crazywisdom said:
The research was done by   HH Chetsang R. He is   some Tibetan.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but he uses exclusively Tibetan historical accounts, which are none too reliable past the 11th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Chan, like all other sūtra traditions, lacks direct introduction.

Astus said:
Do you mean that there are no empowerments in sutra? Still, since the nature of mind is directly perceived in the sutrayana, the goal of the empowerments is achieved there too, so, as you noted before, it is the method that is different.

Malcolm wrote:
No one ever disputed the goal of all the Buddha's teachings was to perceive the nature of the mind, and this realizing this was bodhi.

What I am claiming is that there is no direct introduction in sūtra. In sūtra, the nature of the mind, to use your term, is the result of the path, whether gradual or not, not the basis. In sūtra, one does not start at the nature of the mind because it is never directly introduced and no methods are provided for such an introduction. In Vajrayāna, the gnosis pointed out in the beginning is the basis for the path, whether that path again is gradual, as in the case of the eight lower yānas; or nongradual, as in Atiyoga (though to be fair, in Atiyoga it is explained that buddhahood through

Astus said:
But if we talk of Chan, the very meaning of sudden awakening is not going through stages using various skilful means to eventually attain realisation, but obtaining it directly.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. This is acknowledged. But as above, you are describing this in terms of a result to obtain through a cause. A result is a result, whether obtained gradually or suddenly, and it is obtained from a cause, whether gradually or suddenly, whether through a process of gathering the two accumulations over eons or a sudden flash of intuition. Then of course, even if one has this sudden flash of intuition, without the guidance of teacher one will not be able to ascertain whether this gradual attainment or sudden intuition is the real deal. In this respect, there is no difference between Vajrayāna in general and Chan. Both systems depend on a teacher. The principle difference is that in the case of the former, the interested student is first introduced to their own state by the teacher; in the case of the latter, the teacher confirms for the student they indeed have had a proper intuition of the nature of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 25th, 2020 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
It's baked in. Chan, like all other sūtra traditions, lacks direct introduction.

Dan74 said:
Pointing out is an integral part of what a Zen teacher does. I am not in a position to compare this to Dzogchen or Mahamudra. Are you, Malcolm?

I am not sure how much time Astus has spent with Zen teachers. My understanding is that he is essentially a scholar and a sole practitioner, so not really representative of Zen. Neither am I, btw.

In order to get a balanced view on this subject, one needs either a Zen teacher or a competent student. Failing that, people can search for old posts by such.

As it stands it seems to be a no contest. One that's been played before.

Crazywisdom said:
The  Drikung lineage teaches  Bodhiharma  had a  vajrayana lineage, hence the pointing out by  a teacher thing, but it was mostly lost,and it is  a broken lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because some Tibetans conflate Bodhidharma with Padampa Sangye.


