﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 11th, 2020 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Just as the Lotus Sutra appears to be like a donut, missing its central teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, because Occam's razor just doesn't apply.

Queequeg said:
I think you misunderstand something. But I can't tell because I don't follow the gist of your comment.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you claimed that the Lotus Sutra explicitly omits mention of its central teaching. Frankly, that's ridiculous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 11th, 2020 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:



Queequeg said:
This opening the provisional to reveal the real is another way of stating what we find in Nagarjuna's MMK, Ch. 24, v. 18.

Whatever is dependently co-arisen / That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation, / Is itself the middle way.

The Third Truth is the middle way, or alternatively, the opening of the provisional to reveal the real.

Malcolm wrote:
This is unwarranted. Nagārjuna was certainly aware of the Meeting of the Father and Sun Sūtra (ārya-pitāputra-samāgamana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra) where it is emphatically stated there is no third truth.

There there is the Discourse of Ultimate and Relative Truth Sūtra (ārya-saṃvṛti-paramārtha-satya-nirdeśa-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra). No mention of "three truths" there either.

Finally, notion of a third truth contradicts not only sūtra, but it also contradicts the writings of Nāgārjuna himself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 11th, 2020 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Just as the Lotus Sutra appears to be like a donut, missing its central teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, because Occam's razor just doesn't apply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 11th, 2020 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
jake said:
The Lotus Sutra is the source of Zhiyi's teaching on the Three Truths?

Queequeg said:
[stepping away from the fray]

Yes.


Malcolm wrote:
I think the question is, "Where explicitly in the Lotus are Zhiyi's ideas mentioned?" If this question cannot be answered, one has to accept "the three trurth scheme" is an exegetical framework imposed on the text by a commentator. The latter must be the case, since this idea of three truths, whether connected with the Saddhamarma Pundarika or not, is only found originally in Zhiyi's writing and no where else.

The textual source of Zhiyi's three truths is the passage in the MMK where Nāgārjuna mentions that emptiness, dependent designation, and middle way are simply synonyms of dependent origination. Zhiyi interpreted this to mean that emptiness was ultimate truth, dependent designation was conventional truth, and that these two were resolved by the middle way.

In my personal opinion, this is an unwarranted interpretation. And of course, NO ONE from the Tien Tai school etc., is willing to debate this in good faith.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 10th, 2020 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Selling the dharma
Content:


tobes said:
We should ignore it because these "basics" are predicated on grasping to 'I' and 'mine' and are therefore nothing more than political-social conventions deeply contrary to Buddhadharma.

Malcolm wrote:
What is contrary to Buddhadharma is not political and social convention. What is contrary to Buddhadharma is believing that any of it is more than dream or an illusion.

tobes said:
Aren't we trying to rupture samsara at its root? Isn't that precisely what danaparamita is?

Malcolm wrote:
Śāntideva poses the question: Since the Bodhisattva did not in fact relieve the world of all its poverty, how could he have perfected generosity? The answer given is that even though the Bodhisattva could not do this in fact, he wished to. Thus perfecting generosity is more connected to one's motivation than deed.

tobes said:
We all trying to give up owning things, possessing things; and the languages and practices that build up around this.

Malcolm wrote:
No, what we are trying to do is abandon the sense of having a self, a self that does not exist, because that sense of self is false. That has nothing to do with conventional possession of this thing and that thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 10th, 2020 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Selling the dharma
Content:


tobes said:
We all trying to give up owning things, possessing things...

Malcolm wrote:
Only in Hinayana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 10th, 2020 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Selling the dharma
Content:



PeterC said:
No, you're entering into a commercial relationship with the first two. You probably aren't fully aware of the full implications of that relationship, but that's because you haven't read the small print.  You can choose with Google to terminate that relationship altogether and cease to use their services. You can't (yet) do the same with FB, though I maintain that their actions in this regard are illegal in many of the countries in which they operate, but you can limit the extent of the relationship - for instance, I have all FB products and tracking technology blocked on every device I use. But neither of them are stealing from you. You're acquiescing to their conduct.

tobes said:
Fair points. What I'm trying to get at is: look at how noble Wikipedia is in comparison. Look at the model - for getting good things done in the world.

PeterC said:
Wikipedia is permanently on the brink of bankruptcy. Nobility does not always produce results

Malcolm wrote:
Nor does it ensure accurate info.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 10th, 2020 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
One thing to keep in mind is the absolute becomes provisional over the term and the lotus sutra reveals this and allows for synchronization.

This happens on a sublime level genetically and expresses itself in our nature as well.

This can make an absolute teaching provisional over time, but contextually that teaching is still absolute and provisional from the perspective of the lotus sutra. In reality is both and neither, etc and so forth.

Why?

Because all of this occurs in the living moment, not outside of it so it the ultimate basis of perspective needs to be reconciled to the living moment from the point of cause which is the world honored one's enlightenment.

This is why verbiage such as eagle's peak or vulture's peak is used. It is denoting a hierarchy of conscious perspective whi.ch becomes natural over the term.

If we don't attempt to hold this all in the living moment we aren't fathoming the honored one's complete and perfect enlightenment because it included us and others if we can only muster the faith in such a prospect.

Malcolm wrote:
Intellectual smoothy: take a bunch of concepts, put them in a blender.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 10th, 2020 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
Misty said:
Thank you
I’m feeling quite puzzled around this but very curious.

Malcolm wrote:
The term “trace” is a translation of vasana, literally to perfume. Since the all basis consciousness is not an object of consciousness, it’s contents, the traces, cannot be cognized.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 10th, 2020 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Interesting immigration numbers
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I don't even understand what the ER example is meant to prove. All it means is that poor people go to emergency rooms, and that immigrants tend to be poor, both fairly apparent facts. Really displays nothing about who is actually paying for their healthcare and who is not. I have no idea why that example was furnished as proof of anything. We aren't even discussing whether or not it's publicly funded healthcare or some sort or a private hospital. If it's private, it's an even poorer example.

I grew up in New Mexico (with undocumented friends btw) and spent time in emergency rooms, private and county. Did lots of dumb stuff when I was young. I can say from personal experience that if they were at a private hospital they are going through the same stuff I was without insurance, and in a couple cases  people I knew would straight pay cash for their healthcare...I just went into debt for mine.

So to make arguments about them "stealing our healthcare" you'd first need to establish you are talking about state exchanges or something. In my current profession (Drug and Alcohol counseling) the undocumented I've met again just pay cash for the most part and have no coverage anyway. AFAIK the ACA has language that actually excludes illegal/undocumented immigrants, and that is the conceivable place where they'd be "stealing" our healthcare. There is very little funding for immigrants public healthcare, a few cities I think.

Malcolm wrote:
Don’t waste your breath. It is clear we are all just virtue-signaling, hard-left hypocrites who should be homeless in order to have anything valid to say on this issue. Of course, anyone who contests universal health care is obviously a virtue-signaling, hard right nut job who should put in a gulag in order to be shown the error of their ways (sarcasm alert).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 10th, 2020 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Study & ponder this section on the 10th Ground of the Ten Grounds Sutra.  Skip down to the Summarizing Stanzas, if you wish.  There is a stage or ground beyond the 10th called the Tathagata Ground.

Caoimhghín said:
I guess this answers the question.
In countless kalpas, I can describe only a small part of the wisdom and transcendental powers of a Bodhisattva on this Dharma Cloud Ground, much less those [of a Buddha] on the Tathāgata Ground.
(Daśabhūmikasūtra linked above)

Now I just need to find if there's a divergent source inspiring the narrative that the Dharma Cloud Ground is the Tathāgata Ground or if it's just a misunderstanding.
Malcolm wrote:
The stage of Buddhahood is 11, however the 10th stage is effectively a stage of Buddhahood according the abhisamaya-alamkara.

Caoimhghín said:
That's a commentary on the Pañcaviṃśatisāhasrikā, isn't it? Does the root text it is commenting on have a daśabhūmika framework or is this an autonomous feature of the Abhisamaya? Is this section from the Abhisamaya where people get their correspondences between bodhisatva bhūmikas and the śrāvaka pudgalamarga (i.e. stream-entry = 1st bhūmi, etc.)?

Malcolm wrote:
Just read it. That will answer all your questions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 9th, 2020 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Selling the dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The value of things purchased always exceeds the value of things obtained for free.

tkp67 said:
How much is a mother's love or the cost of refuge in the 3 jewels these days?

Malcolm wrote:
While both are invaluable, many beings have no appreciation at all for the former, and most sentient beings do not have the merit to hold the latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 9th, 2020 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
Misty said:
At what point does the manifestation of these traces become a noticeable object for discernment?

I went through a period of high situational stress that had an ill effect on my health. Through some guided help I learned to notice the first signs, chest tightness, kind of like, situational cues triggering body or muscle memory.  Is this an example of the first possible identifiers? or is this something totally different from what is represented here?

Malcolm wrote:
Never.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 9th, 2020 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Bhumi 10 or 11?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Some people place complete awakening at bhumi 10, and some place that awakening beyond it, on a rhetorical bhumi 11.

Anyone know more about this?

Malcolm wrote:
The stage of Buddhahood is 11, however the 10th stage is effectively a stage of Buddhahood according the abhisamaya-alamkara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 9th, 2020 at 9:34 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
 said:
" The ālayavijñāna is simply a repository for the traces created by the other consciousnesses and has no actual cognitive function, and cannot be perceived by sentient beings."

Lazuli said:
Could one not perceive these "traces" during lucid dreaming?

Malcolm wrote:
No, not directly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 8th, 2020 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Dukkha and pure mathematics.
Content:
workbalance said:
How does Buddhism view the power of mathematical reasoning and its high status
in the philosophy of Pythagoras and Plato, as a training method that provides
great assistance in the gradual transformation of human consciousness
from painfully subjective to joyfully objective perception of reality?

Malcolm wrote:
Math, logic, has no role in awakening. But they are useful for science and disciplining ones thinking, respectively.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 8th, 2020 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Unknown said:
The advantage of Tian Tai in modern time is that it...systematically present all Buddhist thoughts but also contains its own systematical practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Correction, it presents an interpretation of all Buddhist thought known to Zhiyi, but that necessarily excludes 6 centuries of Buddhist thought in India and elsewhere (such as Khotan and Central Asia, etc.), and does not mean he was necessarily party to contemporary developments in Buddhist thought in India. Of course, everyone knows that the dominant strains of Buddhist thought and writing in China were Hua Yen and Tien Tai.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 8th, 2020 at 8:54 PM
Title: Re: Interesting immigration numbers
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
and the idiocy of denying health care to all undocumented people is simply unfathomable.

tingdzin said:
Until the health care system is fixed, it is not idiotic to take care of legal immigrants and citizens first. I can't afford health care in America, why should others get it for free? An ER doctor who is a Dharma friend of mine says his hospital's ER is flooded with indigent illegals -- and he's not a conservative.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s very Buddhist of you: me first, others later.  But the main point is that it is simply bad public health policy. This is demonstrated by your friends ER room.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 8th, 2020 at 11:01 AM
Title: Re: Chod Ngondro
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Oh yah I forgot to mention that one in the original post. thanks for the clue up anyway:)

Malcolm wrote:
Then there is also Dzinpa Rangdrol of Do khyentse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 8th, 2020 at 10:20 AM
Title: Re: Chod Ngondro
Content:
KonchogUrgyenNyima said:
Hello my friends,

I'm wondering how many chod Ngondros there are out there?
The one I know about is the Shuksep Ngondro
Does anyone know of any others? I am very interested in Dzogchen chod traditions.
Any chod ngondro you know about would be really great to hear about though:)

Thank you and may beings benefit!

Malcolm wrote:
Dudjom troma has a very nice ngondro


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 8th, 2020 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra
Content:
haha said:
For three turnings: According to the Indian translator Divākara, Śīlabhadra divided the Buddhist teachings into three turnings of the Dharma Wheel, following the divisions given in the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C4%ABlabhadra

Malcolm wrote:
While this maybe true, it entered Tibet by way of Hsuan Tsang's disciple, Wongchuk's commentary.


haha said:
According to Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso, Although the term "Shentong" was coined in Tibet, Madhyamaka Shentong represents the views of those whom, in India, were known as the Yogacara Madhyamikas.
p. 55
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Malcolm wrote:
There existed no such school by that name in India at any time, ever.

haha said:
Dharmapala and Sthirmati have different understanding of Cittamatra than Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso does. It is also good to read their commentaries on “Treatise in Thirty Verses”.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because they are Yogacārins.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
My view is both 2 truth and 3 truth models existed before and exist today. My view is trying to remove them from experiential and historical perspectives isn't necessary nor does it change reality as it stands today. Putting them use within that perspective honors all those who brought the teachings tohis very place and time as well as the person(s) benefiting from them.

Once we make it about what pleases and functions for OUR INDIVIDUAL MINDS ONLY we are not practicing in terms of shakyamuni's enlightenment (imagine he was a narcissist) as taught in the lotus sutra. So I personally don't abide to such perspectives.

I am no admonishing other perspectives just stating there are not definitive perspectives, If they where the newer patriarchs would be patriarchs.

Malcolm wrote:
You do realize that all you are doing is expressing your own bias, rather than making common ground? Also, if you are claiming that nothing is definitive, you just ruin all your exclusivist claims about the Lotus Sutra, Zhiyi, and Nichiren.

It is for this reason I recommend you get out if your silo and study some normative Mahayana Buddhism. But if you are not interested, well, that’s your problem, not mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


LastLegend said:
Two truths usually the case of attachment to duality.

Malcolm wrote:
As Nagarjuna pointed out, those who do not understand the two truths do not understand the doctrine of the Buddha. Adding a third truth does not make things more clear. If it did, the Buddha would have taught three truths, but he didn’t.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Bathing Purification
Content:
cjdevries said:
Does anyone know of any traditions within Buddhism that have bathing practices for purification.  I know Shinto has ritual bathing.  Can you bathe and visualize a deity at the same time and visualize impurities coming out while bathing?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, if you have transmission, there is a washing yoga.  But you should learn this from your lama.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Need help from someone who can read both Chinese and Tibetan
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
My friend gave me a link to a site that has instructions on how to offer incense to the hungry ghosts. After doing some research, I've concluded that it is a sur offering. However, I haven't been able to find a version with romanised Tibetan. I do read some Chinese, but I know very little Tibetan - certainly not enough to figure out which words the Chinese characters are referring to.

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/bLfP1pO5itW4Fhjz5q7vvw?fbclid=IwAR3P8ACgy5qk5waZnLMfkh35zeLVUu8dPDiGG6eHh--AyGV9nWFEOpZnJg8 is the link to the website of the practice.

It would be good if anyone who can read both Chinese and Tibetan could take a look and direct me to a site that has a transliteration into English. Barring that, could you please just write down some of the words of some of the texts in Tibetan, so I can google them and hopefully find an English version of the text.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is a practice called the Jvalamukha water offering one can make to pretas Sur is an offering to beings in the bardo., not hungry ghosts/preta. The Jvalamukha water offering requires no transmission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Interesting immigration numbers
Content:
tingdzin said:
Fa Dao:

Yes, this issue is one that the virtue-signallers immediately jump on and have polarized based on false pretenses. As a matter of fact, most people in the U.S are not opposed to immigration, from Latin America or anywhere else. However, they (including most Hispanics) are opposed to illegal immigration, and this is a crucial difference that the far left has tried to elide, and the Dems running things have their heads in a warm dark place about. Obama realized this, and worked harder against it than any previous president, which both sides of the Punch-and-Judy drama seem to have forgotten. This could well be a defining issue in the election, so Dems had better get smart if they don't want four more years of Trump.

Malcolm wrote:
When you don’t remove the root cause, you just keep trying to deal with symptoms.

The fact is that not one single job in the US was “stolen” by an undocumented worker, and the idiocy of denying health care to all undocumented people is simply unfathomable. Catering to white demographic anxiety creates more problems than it solves because that anxiety is baseless, and leads to out and out racism and nationalism. Of course Hispanics (those from Hispaniola) oppose illegal immigration, since they are mostly Cubans who have been given preferential treatment for decades, darlings of the GOP’s stupid bias against Castro. “Latinos” on the other hand—mostly native people and mestizo people who actually speak Spanish as a second language—flooded the US as a result of the collapse of 50k small farms in the immediate aftermath of NAFTA, when corn prices plummeted in Mexico, etc., because of the US dumping cheap corn on the Mexican market. This in turn caused a large scale population transfer into Mexican cities, which led to high unemployment in Mexico, and caused many of those same, now landless, campesinos to cross the border in search of work in the US. For 20 years Mexican villages were empty of anyone but old people and children who relied on moneyed wired from the US.

So, we caused this problem because we subscribed to free-market neoliberalism.

To fix it, we need to restore the idea that markets are not just engines for corporations to take profits for their shareholders, but need to be tightly regulated in order to prevent unintended consequences of the kind that NAFTA caused, or the kind we are experiencing now because of the global market panic over covid-19. BTW, the recession caused by global reactions to covid-19 all but ensures that Trump is a one term president. Presidents do not get re-elected in the midst of recessions. This one is going to be quite severe, worldwide.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
The evolution of teachings accords with the capacity, causes and conditions of the people over the course of time. The past influences the future but does not supercede it. Everything flowing in accord to how it occurred. Cause and effect is an essential theme, not just internal but from beginning to end.

Keeping this context is what nichiren does in his teachings. This is what he did with all other teachings. In this regard the lotus is the spine of the book to all other teachings since the evaluations are made against it.

There was a reason for the assembly in the lotus sutra. This is why it is not a subjective matter for lotus practioners. This is why other distilations are not subjective either. The teaching contains ten realms. It was developed from prior teachings that taught less. Same as the truths.

Why cant they both remain golden without contest? Nichiren only looked at how they suited sentient beings as a metric for comparison.

Malcolm wrote:
Most of us are not Nichiren Buddhists, and so don’t really regard Nichiren’s opinions as terribly relevant. All of us are Mahayana Buddhists, and for all of us Nagarjuna is relevant. This is why, in threads like these, I don’t introduce Tibetan Buddhist perspectives—they are not universal enough.  It it seems you prefer to just engage in sectarian polemics. Yawn. However, I will compliment you on taking the effort to compose better sentences.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 10:59 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
How many Dharma realms accompany the 2 truth teachings and how many dharma realms in the 3 truth teachings?

Caoimhghín said:
Three thousand for both, if you believe in the ten suchnesses, the ten destinies, the ten destinies further within each of the ten destinies, and the three realms. 10x10x10x3.

But why does it matter how many "dharma realms" there are "in" each presentation? There is technically only one dharma realm, dharmadhātu, because enumerating it is pointless.

tkp67 said:
Anthropologically?

Zhiyi's taught the ten realms and accompanied it with three truths. I don't believe Nagarjuna taught ten realms.

fwiw as a Nichiren Buddhist being posed to venerate teachings of Nagarjuna and ignore Zhiyi denies my teacher in a request to observe them both and the causative differences. If the two truths could be stripped from the ten realms Nichiren would have done so for the same of making liberation more efficient.

He did not.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not what I was suggesting. I was suggesting you learn normative Mahayana Buddhism. That will require you to set aside your Nicherin lense and consider other perspectives. Your attachment to enumeration is, well, trivial. There are infinite realms, not just ten.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 8:09 AM
Title: Re: Foucault's "discourse"
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
Ty for your response. Just so I understand - you mean that this kind of thing is not really Marxist?

Malcolm wrote:
Post Marxist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: A Manifesto Against the Enemies of Modernity
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
The reason I like the essay is that it is certainly centrism, but it is not tepid.

Malcolm wrote:
Centrism is just a nice way of saying, "Get back in Line, the elites will take care of everything."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Misty said:
Thank you

Malcolm wrote:
To this we can add, if we have real insight into dependent origination, we can recognized that affliction as empty, and this pretty much kills it on the spot.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Misty said:
“The two truths describe how ordinary people falsely perceive the world on the one hand, and how awakened people on the bodhisattva stages correctly perceive the world on the other hand. That's all. End of story.”

Excellent, thank you

My curiosity has moved in this direction…..

So when an object (or perception) of mind or matter is recognized as being a result of, or manifestation of dependent origination, we are better able to discern wise and compassionate response within that recognized relative experience?

When objects (or perceptions) of mind or matter are not recognized as being a result of, or manifestation of dependent origination, is this what is meant as samsara?

Malcolm wrote:
In very simple terms, yes. When we do not recognize an affliction is in play, this causes us to engage in an action, and that action ripens as suffering. When we recognize an affliction is in play, we can refrain from carrying out the action it would otherwise cause, and thus, that suffering will not arise for use as a result in the future.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 7th, 2020 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
So you invalidate the three truths because wanting to know the roots is ancillary but your study of Indian buddhism is reasonable desire to know dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
I did not invalidate Zhiyi at all. I pointed out that his three "truths" are a commentary on a passage found in Nāgārjuna's MMK.

tkp67 said:
Seems you are trying hard to justify teachings that accord to your mind and discard those that don't accord to your mind but accord to the minds of others.

Malcolm wrote:
I just report what the Buddha said, and what Indian masters say. When I examine developments in Buddhist philosophy outside of India, I judge them according to two criteria: One, do they comport with what the Buddha and Indian masters say? Two, what are the cultural factors that led to the development of this or that school. I apply this to Tibetan Buddhism as well. There are many intellectual trends in Tibetan Buddhism which are novel departures from Indian Buddhist norms.

Since I do not subscribe the Mappo anxiety which dominated Japanese Buddhist discourse during the Kamakura period, the arguments of Pure Land Buddhists, Nichiren Buddhists, and Soto Zen Buddhists do not move me very much; just as the degenerate age anxiety which dominated Indian Vajrayāna from the Pala period onward and Tibetan Buddhist discourse won't move you very much. I don't expect it too. For this reason, for example, Tibetan Buddhists do not pay much attention to the Lotus Sūtra. The Lotus Sūtra is in our canon of course, and a very good translation of it from Sanskrit and Tibetan may be found at the 84000.com. But we don't read it (other than in yearly sūtra recitation rituals) or study it much, and we certainly do not think Nichiren's arguments about it being the summum bonum of the Buddha's teachings are valid at all, because his arguments are based on hermeneutical criteria that are utterly foreign to Indo-Tibetan Buddhism. That said, all Tibetan Buddhist schools are ekayāna schools. Of course, Tibetan Buddhists fetishize texts just the same way Nichiren Buddhists do, and so on do. We just fetishize different texts than you, for different reasons than yours.

That said, the only place where Mahāyāna Buddhists of different traditions can find common ground is in the discourses of Indian masters such as Nāgārjuna. This is why I prefer to keep discussions of Buddhist philosophy there. Similarly, while Continental Philosophy and the Anglo-American tradition do not share much in common, they both share a common history grounded in Plato, Aristotle, etc.

You will notice, I never bring Tibetan scholars into the mix. Why? Because like Chinese Buddhists, the Tibetans got involved in their own criteria and disputes about philosophy, which do not translate outside the Tibetan  Buddhist context; just as Chinese Buddhist disputes do not translate well outside that Chinese Buddhist context.

Therefore, if you want to have conversations with Buddhists outside of your particular silo, you need to educate yourself in Indian Buddhism in general, and Indian Mahāyāna Buddhism, which is the progenitor of all Mahāyāna Buddhism, everywhere it spread. If you don't do this, you will find your ability to carry on discussions with other Buddhists outside the Japanese traditions to be quite limited.

And you need some remedial English writing classes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka < quantum mechanics?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
It may not ‘bear analysis’ but if you’re a wheat farmer then your livelihood relies on the sprouting of seeds.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is why it is convention-- since a farmer needs conditions such as sunshine, rain, fertile soil, heavy equipment, etc. to turn those causes, seeds, into crops.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: A Manifesto Against the Enemies of Modernity
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
“Modernity” is the name for the profound cultural transformation which saw the rise of representative democracy, the age of science, the supersedence of reason over superstition, and the establishment of individual liberties to live according to one’s own values. At its core, it values empowering the individual to think, believe, read, write, speak, doubt, question, argue, and refute any ideas at all in pursuit of truth. What is there in the society of today for someone who still believes in this? If we insist on continuing to think in purely political terms, there are two primary choices, and they’re both bad.

Malcolm wrote:
Hooray for tepid centrism!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
If I am difficult to understand

Malcolm wrote:
You are. Your writing is atrocious. But everyone has to start somewhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


Queequeg said:
There is no common ground for this discussion of Two Truths v. Three Truths. It does not validate what you are trying to say about "relative grounded in absolute". Its not clear what your views on this actually are, so its hard to determine, but you do seem to have a quarrel with the way the Two Truths are generally understood in Buddhist discourse.

tkp67 said:
I believe they are since the two truths are a teaching to "become unconditioned" and the three are being taught to view the effect of that unconditioned state over the term of our own existence from end to end of the world honored one's existence. They both seem to be employed by a one vehicle teaching so are they conflicting or complementary?

Malcolm wrote:
The two truths describe how ordinary people falsely perceive the world on the one hand, and how awakened people on the bodhisattva stages correctly perceive the world on the other hand. That's all. End of story.

Zhiyi's three truths are a way of understanding the Nāgārjuna passage I posted yesterday—that is, a way of understanding what being empty, dependently designated, and the middle way means. It is useful for people who want to study these things to understand where they come from and their roots.

However, when we get right down to it, what is that which is empty, dependently designated and the middle way? Dependently originated phenomena, which are empty and dependently designated, and the middle way.

The whole point is that dependent origination is the middle way, the middle way between asserting existence or nonexistence with respect to phenomena. Because dependently originated phenomena are empty, they are free from the extreme of existence; because phenomena are dependently designated, they are free from the extreme of nonexistence. That is what it means to say that dependent origination is the middle way. So when we look at what Nāgārjuna is actually talking about in this passage, he is just talking about the central insight of the Buddha, dependent origination, and nothing more.

The main thing we need to understand in Buddhism is dependent origination, since dependent origination is the central theme of the Buddha's Dharma. If we do not understand dependent origination, we won't understand anything else of the Buddha's teaching. As the Buddha said, "Whoever sees dependent origination, sees the Dharma; whoever sees the Dharma, sees me."

So if we are going to discuss the role of truth in Buddhism, the role of truth in Buddhism is to discover the truth of dependent origination and nothing more.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Interesting immigration numbers
Content:
Fa Dao said:
The point I took from it was that if we let in a million or 10 million a year it is a drop in the bucket to eliminating world poverty levels. Was not my intention to make this into a political argument...was looking for ideas/solutions to world poverty. For example, why couldn't we have an organization called something like "The Poverty Coalition" or something like that be created. Then bring all of the major 1st world nations, big business, donors and volunteers from all over the world  with the idea of "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime". In other words instead of shuffling people all over the planet start with the absolute poorest countries and help them build a sustainable infrastructure with decent jobs, training, education etc.  Make all of the major positions unpaid and have very strict oversight so that the money for the projects is not ripped off by greedy people.
That was more of what I was thinking when I started this thread...if people here just want to make a political statement to show how woke they are do it someplace else. Or just lock the thread

Malcolm wrote:
Well, that is what the Peace Corp is for.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 2:43 PM
Title: Re: Leaving Buddhism
Content:
dolphin_color said:
I think one of the great bodhisattvas or Lama Tsongkhapa or Gampopa or somebody would need to manifest before me in order to answer all I have doubts about. And if that could happen soon, it would be great.

But, let's limit the scope a bit: What do you believe happens after you pass away?

Thundering Cloud said:
My understanding is insufficient to really delve into detail at this point, but in broad strokes: I believe experience continues uninterrupted, and awareness is generally altered in such a way that the new experience is entirely engrossing and the entire previous realm is quickly forgotten about, much like when passing between dreams in the course of a night.

Malcolm wrote:
The classical account is that while in the bardo, ones attention on one’s past life ceases at the end of the third week, and the impelling karma begins to ripen, turning one towards the next world, whatever kind of world it might be, and in the process, through the trauma of conception, gestation, and birth, one forgets one’s past life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 2:38 PM
Title: Re: Leaving Buddhism
Content:
dolphin_color said:
and when you realize those truths in your own experience
There are some many things that seem impossible to verify.

Malcolm wrote:
Not impossible, just not possible for ourselves at present.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 1:34 PM
Title: Re: Interesting immigration numbers
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 7:44 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
The most important aspect of mayahana practice is faith not linguistics. What good are they when it comes to that which is beyond description.

At some point all the various thoughts expressed here represent the totality of perspectives that can arise and can be reconciled to the middle way for the purpose of emancipation.

That is why Nichiren's Daimoku is beyond the ability for anyone to describe.

I will answer your last post in depth later Malcom.


Malcolm wrote:
Don’t bother. There is no point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


rory said:
They are simultaneous, but Malcolm, don't start criticizing  Zhiyi if you cannot read Chinese, haven't studied Maka Shikan or early intellectual currents in Chinese Buddhism it is foolish...
gassho
Rory

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Rory,

Fine, then don't defend Zhiyi unless you can read Chinese, etc.

You know what they say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 6:51 AM
Title: Re: Earthly experience as mandatory for nirvana
Content:


workbalance said:
My concern is whether from a buddhist viewpoint we can see earthly life as a purposeful activity
that prepares us for entering, after many incarnations, some other workplace
where we will continue working towards perhaps totally different goals.

Malcolm wrote:
Life itself has no purpose. But if one has entered the Dharma, then life has a purpose.


workbalance said:
On this earth, I view creative construction and perfection of knowledge (e.g. in mathematics) as purposeful activities
requiring development of relevant skills; so I wonder whether this mode of existence continues on higher levels.
I cannot imagive a mode of existence where some kind of work towards some kind of goal is not done.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no higher levels in samsara. It's all suffering from top to bottom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 6:48 AM
Title: Re: Earthly experience as mandatory for nirvana
Content:
workbalance said:
Can earthly experience be viewed not as a calamity to be surpassed but
as a mandatory schooling process for acquiring skills for work awaiting us in nirvana?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no work in nirvana because there are no aggregates in nirvana, so there is no one to do anything, nor anything to do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 6:25 AM
Title: Re: Oh No!
Content:
Simon E. said:
I think Dreamer was Supertramp Ayu...

Ayu said:
Then it makes sense.

Malcolm wrote:
Second most overplayed band in college dorms in the 70's and early 80's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Universes are not absolute spaces.

tkp67 said:
It is in regards to matter within it, something that is inherent in this existence. The precious birth in which suffering and liberation can be experienced.

Malcolm wrote:
What is the antecedent for the first it and the second it in the above sentence?


tkp67 said:
This is the root of your problem. You think there is an absolute that exists.
Or you play a game of semantics as if the derivative in your mind is derivative of all minds. Symantec is a provision. A provisional understanding of absolute is not absolute is it? Provisional teachings teach according to the minds of ordinary people. The lotus sutra teaches from the mind of buddha. They have both led to liberation. The assembly serves the purpose of enlightening seemingly conflicting teachings to the same end. Is there a reason those teachings have to be in conflict with each other here?

Malcolm wrote:
The thread is entitled "the role of truth in Buddhism." We are discussing the definitive view, not provisional views here.


tkp67 said:
The only constants in Buddhadharma are impermanence, suffering, and nonself.
Deviating from direct contextual dialog isn't a adequate or reasonable retort.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, like the GOP defending Trump, you are making a process argument since you have no facts.



tkp67 said:
Yes, you don't understand that text. That single basis or single ground  is the all-basis: a conditioned, impure consciousness, the nature of which is ignorance.
Ok TY for the correction. Does it change the dynamic other than syntactically?

Malcolm wrote:
Completely.




tkp67 said:
I am familiar with Zhiyi's writings on the subject. Just because I know what Zhiyi writes, does not mean that you have comprehended it. Hence, my request for you to explicate them.
As suggested if so desired it should be the topic of a new thread. I don't see them worthy of contention but I don't see they nullify one another as they have both served capacity, cause and condition over time. Rather they have predicates on those very factors.

Malcolm wrote:
Yiou really do need train yourself not to use so many indefinite pronouns or passive constructions in your writing. It is lazy and it makes it impossible to understanding whatever is it that is being discussed because one has no idea to what "it" is referring to.

tkp67 said:
That statement by Nicherin has a canonical basis in Mahāyāna sūtras, so I don't see anyting wrong with it, per se. But the question here is not what Nichiren understands, it is what you understand.
Yes but according to the interpreted meaning of words I used there seems to be a thick overlay of Tibetan derived meaning that skews things sharply. Not that there is anything wrong with those designations but they are as foreign to me as mine are to you.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not relying on any Tibetan scholars or schools in our discussion. I suggest you spend a few years studying the Indian masters, you know, like me. I first read Nāgārjuna in 1985. He is what caused me to embrace the Dharma. There is no presentation of the view, or truth, of Mahāyāna that is more authoritative than the presentation of Nāgārjuna. Nāgārjuna is the gold standard which all must meet, or be relegated to the dustbin of Buddhist history.

tkp67 said:
Once again I am not even arguing against the logic/reasoning/teaching but the insistence that one specificity of the buddha's teachings is the only right way.

Malcolm wrote:
When you show me a sūtra that teaches three truths, rather than two, that will be a different story. But such a sūtra does not exist. Thus the Buddha only taught two truths.

Now, with respect to the so-called "three truths," Nāgarjuna said:

Whatever arises in dependence
that is empty, 
that is dependently designated, 
that is the middle way.
Why? There exist no phenomena 
which do not originate dependently.
Therefore, there are no phenomena
which are not empty.

Now, I understand that Zhiyi took these three terms, and he decided that the middle way reconciled the first two terms. However, in reality, all three terms are merely synonyms for dependent origination. Whatever is dependently originated is empty and dependently designated, and that is the middle way. There is no need to call these "three truths." Buddhapalita (not a Tibetan) explains:

I explain that whatever arises dependently to be empty. That is dependently designated. That is the middle way. Therein, if there is some entity which exists, that is dependently originated and dependently designated. Why? Because there are no phenomena which are not dependently originated, therefore, there are no phenomena which are not empty.

"Emptiness," "dependent designation," and "middle way" are absolute synonyms for dependent origination. But this passage is not actually about the two truths at all, let alone three truths. This passage concerns the meaning of the profound truth that the Buddha taught, dependent origination, the madhyama-pratipad, i.e. the middle way, and nothing else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
rory said:
This is removed from practice, but read Brook Ziporyn's H-net book review of Paul Swanson's translation of Zhiyi's great work Maka Shikan, Mohe Zhiguan Clear Serenity; Quiet Insight Below is an extract:
This way of reading the section shows us all the more how right Zhanran was to think that this is what is truly distinctive to the Tiantai exposition, particularly when viewed in light of the manner in which it is subsequently and separately joined to the demonstration in the following Emptiness section—where the same results are derived from the other direction, from Emptiness to Conventionality: Emptiness itself, considered alone, renders the full panoply of Conventionally definite entities (via the four siddhāntas)—and then how this relation between the Conventional and Emptiness is subsequently and separately what is invoked in the Middle section, in the form of a re-evocation and expansion of both sides and the second-order relation of undecidable reversibility between these two, which is what is meant by their mutual identity: annulling the separation only on the basis of having first posited it, and also preserving it in the indecidability of the result. It is in the Middle section that Zhiyi gives us, as Swanson correctly points out, the application of the usual third step to the exposition: in this case, showing that the two opposite Inconceivabilities of the prior two sections (i.e., from Conventionality to Emptiness and from Emptiness to Conventionality) are themselves reversible, are identical-as-different, another Mobius strip, introducing a new level of Inconceivability.
https://networks.h-net.org/node/6060/reviews/2141666/ziporyn-swanson-clear-serenity-quiet-insight-t%E2%80%99ien-t%E2%80%99ai-chih-i%E2%80%99s-mo
gassho
Rory

Malcolm wrote:
That is an awfully complicated way to say that the two truths are inseparable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: Vipassanā
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Śrāvaka cultivation is not a prerequisite for bodhisatvayāna any more than the vehicle of the pratyekabuddhas is a prerequisite to śrāvakayāna.

And I'll say I'm fully aware that these are "words" and am rather unrepentant about the fact of that, and I'll further say that which I have now said before you tell me to stop relying on "words" and "concepts" and to stop being "discursive." So we can fast-forward past that part of the conversation.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.

And jeez Keevin, stop using those pesky words!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Oh No!
Content:
Ayu said:
What's wrong with Genisis?
Dreamer? That's nice.

Malcolm wrote:
The most overplayed band in college dorms in the 70's and early 80's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Universes are not absolute spaces.

Caoimhghín said:
But is space absolute?

Forgive the frivolity, I couldn't resist.

Malcolm wrote:
No, space is just uncompounded, but it is not an ultimate truth since there is extension, and thus space has parts. See Āryadeva.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
How do we exists as beings on a planet IN a solar system that resides IN galaxy that exists IN a universe.

Malcolm wrote:
Universes are not absolute spaces.




tkp67 said:
Better yet, How did the absolute exist for the world honored one before he sought enlightenment? Was the Brahma realm the "ultimate" truth" or was it better boundless empty compassionate equanimity discovered thereafter?

Malcolm wrote:
This is the root of your problem. You think there is an absolute that exists.


tkp67 said:
If this greater reality has parts, which you imply through your statement, it cannot be anything other than a compounded phenomena. But your assertion is baseless, it is similar to theistic arguments for the existence of god. If this constant is compounded, then it cannot sustain all phenomena, since it must rely on a cause. If this constant is uncompounded, it cannot be a cause, since it should produce all its effects at one and the same time, since an uncompounded entity that produces effects over time is impossible, being compounded.
Yet the compounding of phenomenon and impermanence do not deny the rising and setting of the sun. Birth and death. Suffering and Nirvana. Or the nature of consciousness in regards to sentient beings. Seems there are some constants within which buddhism is practiced and liberation experienced. If you look hard enough one can see the very influence of them since the potential buddha nature is one of them.

Malcolm wrote:
The only constants in Buddhadharma are impermanence, suffering, and nonself.


tkp67 said:
Where are you getting this "absolute consciousness" from? There is no such thing as an absolute consciousness in the teachings of the Buddha. There is such a thing as an absolute consciousness in the Vedanta teachings of the Hindus, but we are not Hindus.
The absolute conscious is our conscious sans self marked by purity, boundlessness, equanimity and compassion. The state that, if I understand it correctly, the prayer of Kuntuzangpo mentions. The single "ground".

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you don't understand that text. That single basis or single ground  is the all-basis: a conditioned, impure consciousness, the nature of which is ignorance.


tkp67 said:
You certainly have not described how. You have not even mapped out the three truths you propose.
I assumed since you contested it you where intimate with it from contemplation. Am I wrong to do so?

Malcolm wrote:
I am familiar with Zhiyi's writings on the subject. Just because I know what Zhiyi writes, does not mean that you have comprehended it. Hence, my request for you to explicate them.



tkp67 said:
It seems you draw the line in whose teachings you choose to honor as Buddhist or not. As Nichiren says, earthly desires are enlightenment so it would seem it proves to be.

Malcolm wrote:
That statement by Nicherin has a canonical basis in Mahāyāna sūtras, so I don't see anyting wrong with it, per se. But the question here is not what Nichiren understands, it is what you understand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Vipassanā
Content:
monkishlife said:
I know that concept of emptiness is the same between Theravadins and Mahayanas . You are free to disagree - and you do.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no śrāvaka school that teaches emptiness free from all extremes. Thus, there is a very big difference.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Vipassanā
Content:
monkishlife said:
I understand what you're saying , but all paths in vipassana are leading to the same end.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, Theravada Vipassana only leads the cessation of afflictions (even they will admit this) and arhatship. Mahāyāna Vipaśyāna leads to omniscience and full buddhahood, so there is a major difference.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One should make a distinction between practice traditions, like Sakya, Nyingma, Gelug, Kagyu, Nichiren Buddhism, Chan, Soto Zen, Tendai, Shingon, Pure Land, and Hua Yen on the one hand; and the two main philosophical traditions in Mahāyāna, yogacāra and madhyamaka.

Caoimhghín said:
Emphases added.

What about when people try to frame Tathāgatagarbha as its own philosophical tradition? Many say that East Asian Buddhism specifically sits at a three-way intersection between three (philosophical) streams of Madhyamaka, Yogācāra, and Tathāgatagarbha.

Malcolm wrote:
Tathāgatagarbha is a sūtra tradition, but in India, as far as we know, it never developed into a coherent philosophical school, likely due to the fact that post Tathāgatagarbha sūtras like the Lanka relegated tathāgatagarbha to the position of being a doctrine taught for people who were afraid of emptiness.

Thus, while Tibetan and Sino-Japanese schools raised the tathāgatagarbha theory to an elevated level of philosophical discourse, there is virtually no discussion of it in the classical Indian period apart from Maitreyanatha's survey text on tathāgatagarbha sūtras, the Uttaratantra and its commentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I might be confusing this triyāna matter with a theory you voiced a while ago that the trikāya (the saṁbhogakāya specifically) was an invention of the Yogācārins (Ven Maitreyanātha in particular?).

Malcolm wrote:
It did not appear in Indian literature until around the time of Maitreyanatha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Queequeg said:
Before people get their boxers in a bunch, that was humor in response to Mr. Weeks well established prejudice against Progressives.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Who wears boxers?  Besides, if one has to explain a joke, one lacks finesse, not to mention humor.

(Of course only Weeks has 'prejudice', pure reason rules Leftists)

Malcolm wrote:
I think he was trying to avoid a TOS violation. In terms of philosophical traditions, the Left, like Jefferson, certainly finds its inspirations in Epicurus, Lucretius, and Rousseau rather than the Right, like Burke, which finds its inspirations in Plato and Aristotle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Comparatively older Mahāyāna sūtras had a three-vehicle scheme that had a *pratyekayāna, a śrāvakayāna, and a bodhisattvayāna. The three turnings spoken of in the quote above are likely the later threefold schema of śrāvakayāna, bodhisattvayāna, vajrayāna. So that third turning would refer to vajrayāna, not bodhisattvayāna, in the above quote, I suspect. I could be wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
As I have tirelessly pointed out, the three turnings are mainly a historical device adopted by certain Tibetan historians on the basis of the Korean master Wongchuk's massive commentary on the Saṃdhinirmocana Sūtra.

But what is interesting is that the Indian masters seemed completely disinterested in commenting on this scheme, and it was not adopted by all Tibetan scholars as meaningful. I think that this is because when you look at the claim that the third turning is substantially different in content, when the citation itself is examined, we find that all it really says is that the third turning is merely an emphatic restatement of the definitive context of the second turning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Whether the Leftist advocates of Liz & Bernie will support Biden with votes, money and placidity remains to be seen.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, we definitely will. No one can take for more years of the lunatic residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 6th, 2020 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Interesting immigration numbers
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Numbers from the census bureau etc are not intentionally or unintentionally racist. That's just ridiculous. The point was to have a discussion on how to come up with better solutions to ACTUALLY help people living in dire poverty in the world. Importing in a million a year, or even 5 million a year doesn't do it as the video points out.  I'm guessing that you didn't even watch the videos.
And ironically, I am studying Spanish...beautiful and fun language...hopefully will help to stave off dementia for at least a few more years anyways...

Malcolm wrote:
Ceasing to support oppressive dictatorships in third world countries would be a good place to start. Frankly, there is a myth that all these Central American people want to come to the US. They don't. They are mainly fleeing violence these days.

And since you live in a border state, you know perfectly well that undocumented Mexicans have largely ceased coming to the US in large numbers, and have ceased to do so for decades, since the benefits of NAFTA (after considerable economic pain) have finally kicked in for Mexico. We will see how long that lasts though, if Trump gets another 4 years. Most people who come here, and stay illegally, come here on planes, not over the Rio Grande.

And, if Biden gets in, well, it will just be a return to neo-liberal business as usual, which is why he is getting major support from corporations and banks, etc. Don't get me wrong, I will vote for Biden if he is the Dem candidate, and then turn right around and work to push this country to adopt FDR's second bill of rights, universal health care and education for everyone; etc. You know, the usual Bernie talking points. Immigration is not a problem for our country and never has been.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Warren's out.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/us/politics/elizabeth-warren-drops-out.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: Interesting immigration numbers
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Ran across these two videos and found the numbers somewhat disturbing...both together are only around 15 minutes. Would be curious to hear peoples thoughts/possible solutions on this...

Malcolm wrote:
It's kinda of unintentionally racist, and it also does not account for the fact that so-called birth rates among white Americans has been dropping off for decades. Why? Because white women are educated in larger numbers than ever before and are waiting longer to have children, after they have established themselves in a career. Also whites are dying faster than they are being born. On the other hand, groups not formerly included as white—Jews, Italians, and the Irish—were not considered white 100 years ago, but are now added to that number.  A lot of Latinos will cross this line, and become "white."

https://www.chicagoreporter.com/the-us-white-majority-will-soon-disappear-forever/

Better brush up on your spanish, dude. In thirty years, Latinos will outnumber whites, even if we never allowed in another migrant worker ever, or stopped border crossings effectively.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?
Content:
Sunrise said:
It's just that I've heard the warning again and again not to take someone as a Guru without having a good sense of who they are.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is ideal, but for example, when HH Dalai praises HH Sakya Trichen as a "perfect teacher," if we think HHDL is an awesome person (he is), then this is sufficient information to feel confident in receiving teachings from this teacher. When it comes to the lineage heads in general, there should be no problem. The issue arises with teachers of lesser reputation and fame. When one is a beginner in Tibetan Buddhism, it is better to start off with teachers of known reputations, lineage heads, like HHDL, HHST and his sons, the Karmapa (choose one), HH Dudjom Rinpoche Pema Shepa Dorje, Shechen Rabjam, Drikung Khyabgon, Lama Zopa, etc. Then, when you have a little more experience and "know the turf" you can then seek out other teachers when you know how to follow a guru in a proper way.

But you do not need to be your guru's buddy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Nemo said:
Or America deciding that instead of bringing in socialized medicine for the 28 million uninsured and 11+ million undocumented letting it burn through is a better choice for keeping the stock market inflated for the next election.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dow is collapsing again today.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Oh No!
Content:
Simon E. said:
There is a superstition widespread in the U.K. that bad things always come in threes. I have always smiled at this..but...
1. Coronavirus

2. Widespread flooding in many parts of the country.

3. And now comes the news that Genesis are reforming...

Malcolm wrote:
Oh shit, that's horrible. We're all doomed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
With respect to traditions, far as I am concerned, there are only two common Mahāyāna traditions: the Yogacāra tradition of Maitreya and Asanga and the Madhyamaka tradition of Nāgārjuna and his sons—the former being provisional and the latter definitive—with awakening, liberation, and omniscience being possible only for those who realize the meaning of the latter, the Madhyamaka tradition.
Denying Japanese Buddhist movements and the teachings thereof without understanding them isn't open and reasonable discourse. The Nichiren movement is not invalidated through your lack of recognition.

Malcolm wrote:
One should make a distinction between practice traditions, like Sakya, Nyingma, Gelug, Kagyu, Nichiren Buddhism, Chan, Soto Zen, Tendai, Shingon, Pure Land, and Hua Yen on the one hand; and the two main philosophical traditions in Mahāyāna, yogacāra and madhyamaka.


tkp67 said:
Absolute/relative are aspects of the same phenomenon this much is not contested.

Malcolm wrote:
Good.


tkp67 said:
However the three truths are not a empty extension of the two truths but incorporate another important aspect. This will have bearing in this discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha categorically denies there are three truths in the Meeeting of the Father and Sun Sūtra, which I have already presented above, and that takes care of the citation portion of my argument.

Now, the reasoning portion: the idea that there are three truths, rather than two, also does not stand up to reasoning. Why? Truths are objects of cognitions. Cognitions are either veridical or nonveridical. Thus a relative truth is the object of a false cognition and an ultimate truth is an object of a veridical cognition. Since there are no objects of cognitions that are simultaneously false and veridical at one and the same time, a third truth does not exist.


tkp67 said:
For commoners such as we, the ultimate can be only be inferred through reasoning, since we have not had a direct perception of emptiness. So, it is quite the opposite: the ultimate depends on the relative, since it is only through analysis of relative truths that one arrives at ultimate truth. This is especially the case since the two truths are different ways of seeing conventionally-designated entities, one false, one true. However, both perceptions are based on examining relative entities that do not exist as ultimate. The ultimate itself is not something which is expressible in words. In other words, there is nothing that can be identified as the "absolute." Emptiness is also empty.
If we examine relativity in regards to our physical existence, the physical world and how our senses view the world from the moment we are born until we die our perspective is that of relative place within an absolute space.

Malcolm wrote:
How does this "absolute" space exist, and how can relative things exist within it? Is this absolute space compounded or uncompounded. If it is compounded, it is not absolute; and if it is uncompounded, compounded entities, relative phenomena, cannot exist within it.


tkp67 said:
Physically speaking we are individually part and parcel of a greater reality. This constant permeates existence so profoundly and so pervasively that there is not an aspect of existence that does not abide by this aspect of existence by default.

Malcolm wrote:
If this greater reality has parts, which you imply through your statement, it cannot be anything other than a compounded phenomena. But your assertion is baseless, it is similar to theistic arguments for the existence of god. If this constant is compounded, then it cannot sustain all phenomena, since it must rely on a cause. If this constant is uncompounded, it cannot be a cause, since it should produce all its effects at one and the same time, since an uncompounded entity that produces effects over time is impossible, being compounded.

tkp67 said:
The absolute potential of our consciousness which can be released from the tethers of this relative aspect is not engaged by default.

Are we born into abiding by absolute untethered consciousness, defiling the absolute ignorantly thereafter or are we born abiding to the relativity of our physical being (and karma) regardless of the potential of absolute consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
Where are you getting this "absolute consciousness" from? There is no such thing as an absolute consciousness in the teachings of the Buddha. There is such a thing as an absolute consciousness in the Vedanta teachings of the Hindus, but we are not Hindus.


tkp67 said:
This is where the three truths are FUNDAMENTAL. It addresses the importance of time and lack of temporal existence between birth and death.

Malcolm wrote:
You certainly have not described how. You have not even mapped out the three truths you propose.


tkp67 said:
If we don't put it in context to life span, birth and death and experience in light of this constant aspect of life we can't properly ascertain the nature of perception from start to end. Sure if we pick it up at a point during existence and frame it within and assume a level of development, wherewithal and specificity of mind/conditions it can be seen from many personal perspectives/experiences which naturally vary. i.e. chicken or egg coming first is less substantial since once is awakened during the existence of both.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but this is incoherent.

tkp67 said:
So while the two truths may have been an absolute understanding at some point, it developed into a more granular understanding aimed at achieving the same purpose. This is where I don't understand why you draw such lines in the sand.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I draw the line in the sand where the Buddha states unequivocally there is no third truth. That is not at all hard to understand. I follow what the Buddha teaches, first and foremost. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 10:47 AM
Title: Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?
Content:


Sunrise said:
I find this to be so strange. Realistically how much inspiration can one receive from a teacher that you don't know? Without some kind of personal connection, an empowerment is going to be a person in a funny hat saying words you don't understand over you. Commitment to a teacher should be a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of their qualities, it really can't be contrived or imposed upon you. Just my two cents.

Malcolm wrote:
A personal connection comes from you, not them. But in Buddhadharma, a connection with a vajra guru is a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of the Buddhadharma, and specifically, Vajrayāna. The guru is merely an embodiment of that.

tobes said:
Yes, I think this is the key point. Fixating on the embodiment aspect may thoroughly overlook that the point of the vajra guru is to realise the inseparability of the Dharmakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 7:12 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Nemo said:
Maybe we can get a decent antiviral in a year. Herd immunity is the most likely outcome.

Malcolm wrote:
Unlikely, just as one can catch the same cold again 4 months after contracting a cold, it is likely one can contract covid-19 more than once since corona virus antibodies are non-persistent; even a vaccine will not be that effective, in reality. There is no cure for covid-19. There is some evidence that there are two strains, one mild, and one more aggressive. At this point, most covid-19 cases are the virulent type.

https://www.germinfo.org

Nemo said:
After 2 or 3 times immunity will stick. Entirely possible the 2nd infection is the one that kills you. We had similar drug resistant pneumonia in the hospital years ago. if it mutates we are screwed of course and it already has 158 variants. Antivirals targeting angiotensin receptors may work since with reinfection it uses your own immune system to replicate. It has a chance of working and at this point I'll go for it.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. Colds are also caused by carona viruses, and I am happy to admit there is a lot we do not know about this one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?
Content:
Nemo said:
Maybe we can get a decent antiviral in a year. Herd immunity is the most likely outcome.

Malcolm wrote:
Unlikely, just as one can catch the same cold again 4 months after contracting a cold, it is likely one can contract covid-19 more than once since corona virus antibodies are non-persistent; even a vaccine will not be that effective, in reality. There is no cure for covid-19. There is some evidence that there are two strains, one mild, and one more aggressive. At this point, most covid-19 cases are the virulent type.

https://www.germinfo.org


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche empowerment from H.E. Garchen Rinpoche - March 13 2020
Content:



Mantrik said:
Yes, he has a very light touch. I'm not sure if he even insists on Refuge as a prerequisite.

Malcolm wrote:
Every empowerment contains the refuge vow preliminary.

Mantrik said:
True, but I've not seen that in publicity for those webcast events, and I know quite a few people latch onto them via Facebook etc.  With open events things need spelling out sometimes.

Malcolm wrote:
Whatevs, none of our business what other people do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Look, it is pretty simple. When one analyzes something, whatever is left over is "ultimate," because this is the limit of one's analysis. For example, for Sarvastivadins, water is a relative truth, and its wetness and limpidity are ultimate, since for them, this is as far as they carry the analysis. For a Madhyamaka, water is a relative truth, and it is also empty of all extremes, because one cannot take any analysis further than a total deconstruction of ontological assertions about this or that given thing—hence, emptiness is ultimate truth for Madhyamaka.

tkp67 said:
If you go to the original post in question "the relative is reliant on the absolute" you are describing the phenomenological experiential contemplative reasoning that statement is born from.

Without an absolute there is no relative but it does not come before the relative sequential in our experiential existence. There would be no middle way because there would be no duality.

I don't understand why you keep trying to make it about the thesis of your specific tradition? Your conviction in that methodology or the ability for liberation is not in question. Do you believe only your tradition is valid or meaningful? Should I presume this to be thematic in your discourse? I hope I am projecting unreasonably here of course.

Malcolm wrote:
Your assertion, "the relative is reliant on the absolute" is unsupportable, especially when one has no experience of the ultimate truth. For commoners such as we, the ultimate can be only be inferred through reasoning, since we have not had a direct perception of emptiness. So, it is quite the opposite: the ultimate depends on the relative, since it is only through analysis of relative truths that one arrives at ultimate truth. This is especially the case since the two truths are different ways of seeing conventionally-designated entities, one false, one true. However, both perceptions are based on examining relative entities that do not exist as ultimate. The ultimate itself is not something which is expressible in words. In other words, there is nothing that can be identified as the "absolute." Emptiness is also empty.

With respect to traditions, far as I am concerned, there are only two common Mahāyāna traditions: the Yogacāra tradition of Maitreya and Asanga and the Madhyamaka tradition of Nāgārjuna and his sons—the former being provisional and the latter definitive—with awakening, liberation, and omniscience being possible only for those who realize the meaning of the latter, the Madhyamaka tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: Guru Rinpoche empowerment from H.E. Garchen Rinpoche - March 13 2020
Content:



Mantrik said:
Yes, he has a very light touch. I'm not sure if he even insists on Refuge as a prerequisite.

Malcolm wrote:
Every empowerment contains the refuge vow preliminary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
Phenomenological experience in the three truths models gives additional perspective in regards to relative and absolute. From the perspective of temporal existence provisional is only provisional in light of an absolute. There needs to be phenomenal impetus for the perception to polarize between relative and absolute. Both buddhism and science recognize more than 2 dimensions. Ergo the buddha of the ten directions and three times. Even on a genetic level our individual genetic existence itself is a provision of a greater cause which is the human genome. Flat linear perspectives on consciousness seem askew to the topology of conscious structures and physical ones alike.

Malcolm wrote:
The three truths model of Zhiyi is unnecessary outside of Chinese Buddhism, which had its own unique problems in adapting to Madhyamaka.

tkp67 said:
However it still seems apropos in some East Asian traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
Look, it is pretty simple. When one analyzes something, whatever is left over is "ultimate," because this is the limit of one's analysis. For example, for Sarvastivadins, water is a relative truth, and its wetness and limpidity are ultimate, since for them, this is as far as they carry the analysis. For a Madhyamaka, water is a relative truth, and it is also empty of all extremes, because one cannot take any analysis further than a total deconstruction of ontological assertions about this or that given thing—hence, emptiness is ultimate truth for Madhyamaka.

But there is no such thing as an ultimate that exists separate from a relative entity. There is no polarization between relative truth and ultimate truth. Relative truth is a truth about a thing prior to analysis, for example, stating, "This is a car." If you and another person perceive the same car, this is relative truth. When both of you analyze the car, you will both find there is no car either in the parts, in one of the parts, or separate from the parts. There is a seven-fold analysis used by Candrakīrit to illustrate this.

Indeed, the problems arise when people begin to hypostasize the two truths, as if they are somehow independent domains. They are not. All entities bear two natures, one relative, the other ultimate. Why? Because all phenomena are empty. As the Heart Sūtra states,  "Matter is empty, emptiness is matter; there is no matter apart from emptiness, and no emptiness apart from matter" and so on for the rest of the aggregates, etc.

The Buddha explained his definitive Mahāyāna teachings in terms of the two truths. As Nāgārjuna puts it:

The doctrine of the buddhas
truly relies on two truths:
the relative truth of the worldly
and the ultimate truth of the sublime.
Those who do not understand
the distinction between the two truths
do not know the profundity
of the doctrine of the buddhas.

So, that's it. You can either accept the Nāgārjuna's word, and devote oneself to the study of the true intention of the Buddha, or you can waste time chasing mirages. Not only this, but a third truth is emphatically denied in Madhyamaka, so whatever reason Zhiyi had for concocting a third truth in the Chinese Buddhist context, it is irrelevant to Madhyamaka proper. For this reason, Chandrakīrti refers to the Sūtra on the Meeting of the Father and the Son (Āryapitāputrasamāgamananāmamahāyānasūtra):

The truth of the knower of the world
was seen for yourself, not received from another.
Those are relative and ultimate:
there is no third truth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: Discrimination
Content:
Simon E. said:
What has any of this to do with Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Discrimination
Content:
herb2 said:
I sought Self-realization while studying and practicing Hinduism, but it never came. However, while studying and practicing Dzogchen, I realized, experientially, who I really am, who I am not(I realized that I was not the egoic-self image I had always thought I was, and I realized the illusoriness of my kleshas. Thus, within weeks of taking up the study and practice of Buddhism, I made far more spiritual progress than I had, doing likewise with Hinduism for several years. It’s not that I think Buddhism is better than Hinduism, it’s just that Buddhism is resonating powerfully for me, spiritually.

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot practice Dzogchen without receiving empowerment from a qualified guru. Have you done so? Dzogchen is not something one can practice from a book.


herb2 said:
"While studying Christianity, Sri Ramakrishna had a mystical experience where he literally perceived the visible presence of Jesus walking up to him, talking to him, then merging into Sri Ramakrishna’s own body. For the rest of his life, Sri Ramakrisna kept a picture of Jesus in his room and would burn incense in front of it and pray to Jesus every night before he went to sleep. He not only studied and practiced Hinduism, Christianity and Islam, he actually discovered the spiritual truths of all three of those religions. And, “spiritually,” he has been my inspiration."

Malcolm wrote:
I am afraid that the spiritual truths of Buddhadharma are not compatible for what passes as spiritual truth in theistic religions. In Buddhadharma there is no god, no savior, and no creator.

BTW, this is not an issue of discrimination, but a cold, hard assessment of the key differences between Buddhism and other paths.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
Phenomenological experience in the three truths models gives additional perspective in regards to relative and absolute. From the perspective of temporal existence provisional is only provisional in light of an absolute. There needs to be phenomenal impetus for the perception to polarize between relative and absolute. Both buddhism and science recognize more than 2 dimensions. Ergo the buddha of the ten directions and three times. Even on a genetic level our individual genetic existence itself is a provision of a greater cause which is the human genome. Flat linear perspectives on consciousness seem askew to the topology of conscious structures and physical ones alike.

Malcolm wrote:
The three truths model of Zhiyi is unnecessary outside of Chinese Buddhism, which had its own unique problems in adapting to Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
http://cnu.edu/wasoncenter/2019/07/01-2020-election-forecast/

"Barring a shock to the system, Democrats recapture the presidency. The leaking of the Trump campaign’s internal polling has somewhat softened the blow of this forecast, as that polling reaffirms what my model already knew: Trump’s 2016 path to the White House, which was the political equivalent of getting dealt a Royal Flush in poker, is probably not replicable in 2020 with an agitated Democratic electorate. And that is really bad news for Donald Trump because the Blue Wall of the Midwest was then, and is now, the ONLY viable path for Trump to win the White House.

Why is Trump in so much trouble in the Midwest? First, and probably most important, is the profound misunderstanding by, well, almost everyone, as to how he won Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania in the first place. Ask anyone, and they will describe Trump’s 2016 Midwestern triumph as a product of white, working class voters swinging away from the Democrats based on the appeal of Trump’s economic populist messaging. Some will point to survey data of disaffected Obama-to-Trump voters and even Sanders-to-Trump voters as evidence that this populist appeal was the decisive factor. And this is sort of true. In Ohio, Trump managed the rare feat of cracking 50%. Elsewhere, that explanation runs into empirical problems when one digs into the data. Start with the numerical fact that Trump “won” Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan with 47.22%, 48.18%, and 47.5% of the vote, respectively, after five times the normal number in those states cast their ballots for an option other than Trump or Clinton. This, combined with the depressed turnout of African Americans (targeted with suppression materials by the Russians) and left-leaning Independents turned off by Clinton (targeted with defection materials by the Russians) allowed Trump to pull off an improbable victory, one that will be hard to replicate in today’s less nitpicky atmosphere. Yet, the media (and the voting public) has turned Trump’s 2016 win into a mythic legend of invincibility. The complacent electorate of 2016, who were convinced Trump would never be president, has been replaced with the terrified electorate of 2020, who are convinced he’s the Terminator and can’t be stopped. Under my model, that distinction is not only important, it is everything."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


Queequeg said:
Thank you. How does Candra describe upaya?

Malcolm wrote:
He literally devotes no attention to it at all.

Queequeg said:
I am wondering if saying relative truth is categorically false one has the danger of turning that analysis on, for instance, the 4NT in a nihilistic analysis. This is an error that Nagarjuna specifically addresses in MMK.

I probably should just get myself exposed to Candrakirti, but if you can respond to that maybe it would be helpful.

Malcolm wrote:
Relative truths are either false with respect to natures (true relative truth, satyasaṃvṛttisayta) or false with respect to appearances (false relative truth, mithyasaṃvṛttisayta). So you do not have to worry that in declaring relative truth categorically false that somehow Candra is an annihilationist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
how does that dismiss the weight and use phenomological experience?

Malcolm wrote:
Duckworth is making an argument that defends yogacāra as a phenomenology, rather than an ontology-- following another modern scholar, https://www.academia.edu/16675700/Buddhist_Phenomenology_A_Philosophical_Investigation_of_Yogacara_Buddhism_and_the_Cheng_Wei-shih_Lun_Routledge_Critical_Studies_in_Buddhism_by_Dan_Lusthaus_Author_. This is a fashionable stance in the modern academy, but it is certainly isn't what Mipham is actually up to. All Mipham is trying to do is reconcile Yogacāra with Madhyamaka analysis.

Mipham, an amazing scholar, was fond of trying adopting novel positions and also of trying to restore deprecated Madhyamaka scholars like Śantarakṣita (8th century), whose Madhyamaka-alaṃkara is considered to be a Yogacāra/Madhyamaka synthesis to the extent that he accepts the idea that all phenomena can be mind-only conventionally. However, apart from that, Śantarakṣita never uses any specifically yogacāra concepts such as the all-basis consciousness, the three natures, etc. in the course of his treatise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Bloomberg's out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Discrimination
Content:
herb2 said:
Many of Sri Ramakrishna’s followers studied and practiced Buddhism, so I just assumed that Buddhist’s would be OK with someone who wanted to seek enlightenment, even though they are a Christian, but it appears I was wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
You might approach the Zen tradition. Tibetan Buddhism is more closed.

The key issue here is refuge. You cannot go for refuge in two different religions at the same time. It does not make any sense at all to try. If you are a Christian, that's fine. But you cannot hold Jesus Christ as your savior and go for refuge to the Buddha, who rejected completely the idea that anyone was going to save you but yourself.

The issue is going for refuge. The Buddha himself regarded all other religions as being deficient.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?
Content:
Sunrise said:
The living Master gives us a gift that we just can't yet give to ourselves. For confused, distracted people like myself, we really need to receive this spiritual nourishment  and connection.

Malcolm wrote:
From a Vajrayāna point of view, this is an entirely passive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?
Content:
Sunrise said:
...having some form of connection to your Guru helps a lot.

Malcolm wrote:
In Vajrayāna, that connection is forged with empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 5th, 2020 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?
Content:


Sunrise said:
I find this to be so strange. Realistically how much inspiration can one receive from a teacher that you don't know? Without some kind of personal connection, an empowerment is going to be a person in a funny hat saying words you don't understand over you. Commitment to a teacher should be a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of their qualities, it really can't be contrived or imposed upon you. Just my two cents.

Malcolm wrote:
A personal connection comes from you, not them. But in Buddhadharma, a connection with a vajra guru is a natural outgrowth of love and deep admiration of the Buddhadharma, and specifically, Vajrayāna. The guru is merely an embodiment of that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Buddha teaches Shentong view in a Sravakayana sutra
Content:
smcj said:
I don't think it belongs Vajrayana at all,
Historically Dolpopa got his idea for the Shentong view from the Kalachakra. So it is inspired by that specific Tantra.

Malcolm wrote:
More specifically, it is an interpretation of the experience of pratyahāra part of the six-limb yoga, in which there is an appearance of so-called empty forms (śūnyatābimba). This view is not specifically found in the text of the Kalacakra Tantra itself, or its commentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:



Queequeg said:
I am sensing this is a yogacara take. Within a Madhyamaka framework there are true and false (relative) dharmas, right? But then there are other categories of conventions such as the distinctions the Buddha draws which are conventions, but not false. Rather, they are upaya. Upaya are not false... right? wrong? The definition of "false" you utilize is a particular and narrow definition? Am I missing something?

Not trying to trip you up. This is an honest question.

Malcolm wrote:
This is pure Candrakirti, Madhyamaka avatara.

Queequeg said:
Well, I'm asking, what is meant by "false"?

Malcolm wrote:
In this case, "false" means mistaken with respect to the nature of the object that is being cognized, simply put, apprehending that things exist by way of their own nature, as opposed to veridical cognitions, which directly apprehend absence of existence by way of inherent existence, aka emptiness.

When discussing the relative truth, Candra again divides this into a functional relative, and a nonfunctional relative: the former being conventional truths upon which we all agree, such as the earth being round; as opposed to the false relative, the belief that the earth is flat.

Candra's definition of conventional depends on the notion of functionality (ārthakriya).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
https://sites.temple.edu/duckworth/files/2013/07/Duckworth_TwoModelsTwoTruths.pdf

Two Models of the Two Truths: Ontologicaland Phenomenological Approaches

foods for thought

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. You first need to understand the context and long history of Tibetan attempts to reconcile Madhyamaka and Yogacāra. It is not sufficient to do a google search and come up with some paper written by a scholar, no matter how respected, on an issue about which there is serious and deep differences of opinion in Tibet, even within the Nyingma school itself. For example. MIpham's novelties would never be accepted by earlier Nyingma scholars, such as Longchenpa (14th century) or Rongzompa (who was himself a famous translator living in the 12th century).

In the case of Mipham, he tries to reconcile Yogacāra with  Madhyamaka by resorting to various strategies, chief among them, altering Tibetan terms of translated Sanskrit terms in ways that could never be accepted by Indians. For example, in Mipham's commentary on the Dharmadharmatāvibhanga, "Distinguishing Phenomena and their Nature," he argues by that changing the term rnam par rig pa to rnam par snang ba, that this text could be rendered compatible with Madhyamaka. There are two points here: Mipham occasionally tries to reconcile Yogacāra with Madhyamaka in his writings, but he never makes any attempt to reconcile Madhyamaka with Yogacāra. In doing so, he resorts to linguistics tactics, such as the one mentioned above. The problem with this is that "rnam par rig pa" is a translation of the Sanskrit term "vijñapti," a term used again and again in the Dharmadharmatāvibhanga. This term means "cognition," and a principle of the Yogacāra school is that "everything is cognition only." But there is no corresponding Sanskrit philosophical term for "rnam par snang ba," which would mean that "everything is appearance only." So while his attempt is clever, and makes sense in Tibetan, it does not withstand critique, because this term would never be used by the actual exponents of the Dharmadharmatāvibhanga and it does not make sense in Sanskrit.

Moreover, it would not stand because in all the philosophical texts of the Great Perfection system, Yogacāra is systematically relegated to a position below that of Madhyamaka, not to mention that in canonical texts such as the Hevajra Tantra, Yogacāra is relegated to a position inferior to Madhyamaka.

However, from the Dzogchen or Great Perfection point of view, both Madhyamaka and Yogacāra contain errors in approach. The former is considered erroneous because some Madhyamakas understand the two truths to be separate entities, a Great Perfection commentary rejects Madhyamaka deviations in the following way: "Because the true state of the mind is beyond dualistic objects, non-arising dharmatā, (liberated from eight extremes in the essence of the inherently inseparable two truths) is free from the proclamation of being the best view because of illusion."

The same commentary rejects Yogacāra deviations in the following way: "Because atiyoga (aka great perfection) is true, undeluded about everything, the vijñāptimatra understanding of things as reflections of delusion and the view attained through that is a conceptual imputation of their own."

However, most Nyingma scholars today consider that the Prasanga variety of Madhyamaka is both the purest expression of Madhyamaka, mirroring the real intent of Nāgārjuna, and free from the various misunderstandings that plagued earlier Tibetan attempts to understand Madhyamaka following the collapse of the Tibetan empire in the mid 9th century and prior to the introduction of works of Candrakīrti to Tibet in the early 12th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 10:35 AM
Title: Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
Is it normal in Tibetan Buddhism to accept someone you haven’t personally met (but that your mentor/teacher has met)? Can you become the disciple of a guru without meeting them in person (and/or receiving a transmission and/or empowerment from them)?

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot become the disciple of a Vajrayāna guru without receiving empowerment from that person. There is a transitive property in lineages where by taking empowerment from lama b, you also have a disciple relationship with their lama, lama a. For example, if you receive an empowerment of Vajrakilaya from HH Sakya Trizin Ratnavajra, you automatically have a samaya relationship with his father, HH Sakya Trichen, as a lineage guru.

Attending an empowerment is considered meeting them, whether or not you have a personal relationship with them.

PeterC said:
Malcolm - for the avoidance of doubt, this would only apply to the lineage of the empowerment you received from lama B, no?  Otherwise we would probably all have samaya indirectly with Pabongkha Dechen Nyingpo...

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 10:32 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tobes said:
This will be my only post on this, because it always becomes so tedious. But: it is disingenuous for anyone to suggest that there is only one way of interpreting the two truths.

This question of what samvrti-satya means is at the heart of the very real contestations within Madhyamaka. Whatever position one personally takes, one still has to acknowledge these contestations.

Malcolm wrote:
If the two truths are subject to interpretation, and there is more than one way of presenting them, then they are not the two “truths.” Among Madhyamikas, there are slight pedagogical differences in presenting relative truth, depending on whether we are addressing nonbuddhists or buddhists, but among madhyamikas, there are no real differences when it come to the meaning of the two truths.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 10:25 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
one false, the other true.

Queequeg said:
I am sensing this is a yogacara take. Within a Madhyamaka framework there are true and false (relative) dharmas, right? But then there are other categories of conventions such as the distinctions the Buddha draws which are conventions, but not false. Rather, they are upaya. Upaya are not false... right? wrong? The definition of "false" you utilize is a particular and narrow definition? Am I missing something?

Not trying to trip you up. This is an honest question.

Malcolm wrote:
This is pure Candrakirti, Madhyamaka avatara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
The relative does exist without the absolute. This is not contestable.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are asserting that the relative exists? How does it exist?

tkp67 said:
Either is the contrast between the relative and the absolute. In other words ignorance and enlightenment are two aspects of the same phenomenon, same existence, same experience, same entity.

Malcolm wrote:
How can a Buddha possess ignorance? This is not possible.

tkp67 said:
As it is experience in your mind, does buddha nature give way to ignorance? or does ignorance give way to buddha nature? Does any of this mean they are separate? or does it simply imply a hierarchy in regards to  obfuscated consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
You have not defined buddhanature, so i cannot answer your question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
Yet none of this conversations is taking place outside that collection of 5 aggregates working in unison. The same as the relative and absolute truths.

Malcolm wrote:
The two truths do not "work" in unison. Why? Because they are mutually exclusive cognitions of objects, one false, the other true.


tkp67 said:
Which individual aggregate takes credit for your translations and which are abandoned in the process of making them?

Malcolm wrote:
No aggregate takes credit for my translations. A habit of falsely imputed I-making, Malcolm Smith, takes credit for my translations, engages in actions, and experiences the result of those actions. But the I-making that is engaged in translating, talking on this board, etc., actually does not exist, since it is a false imputation. Despite its nonexistence, it is valid as an agent of action and a recipient of the result of action, just as a car is valid as a vehicle for conveyance and can be dented, even though there is no entity "car" in a car. Likewise, there is no entity "person" in a person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
Read again what you quoted. EXPERIENCE DOES NOT EQUAL ENTITY. Existence in the form of the 5 aggregates IS A SINGLE ENTITY. Therefore OBFUSCATION AND LACK THERE OF occur within the same entity.

Malcolm wrote:
No, existence in the form of five aggregates is not a single entity. The whole point of the Buddha teaching the five aggregates was to defeat the notion that there is a single entity which constitutes a person. There is no single entity in which there is obfuscation or lack of obfuscation. The five aggregates cannot be construed to be a single entity, otherwise, they would not have the name "five aggregates." Actually, the five aggregates are the five sense organs, the five sense objects, fifty four mental factors (when sensation and perception are included), and consciousness, for a total of 65 separate factors (and if you add the four primary elements and the eleven derived elements, there are a total of 80 separate factors). Thus, the aggregates can never be construed as a single entity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
If the aggregates experience delusion as an obfuscation of buddha nature what does the converse mean to you? that they can be experienced without delusion right? How does that deny mutual inclusive nature or state independent existence of either?

Malcolm wrote:
The two truths are modes of cognition of a single entity. The first mode is cognition mistaken about the apprehended object, the second is a cognition unmistaken about the apprehended object.

You continue to reference a "buddhanature," but it is not at all clear what you mean by the term. If buddhanature is conceived as a real entity encased with impurities, etc. this is a provisional view at best and a wrong view at worst. If, on the other hand, it is understood as the potential for sentient beings to wake up and realize buddhahood, then this is a correct view. In some presentations, buddhanature is equated with the luminous original nature of the mind, but this term "luminous" is actually just a synonym of emptiness, and refers to the intrinsic purity of all phenomena. Because of that intrinsic purity, we all have the potential to realize that intrinsic purity and wake up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:



tkp67 said:
That assumes there is only one perspective on that teaching and that only one perspective is correct.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is only one correct approach to understanding the Buddha's Dharma, and understanding the distinction between the two truths is necessary.

Caoimhghín said:
This is ultimately going to become a debate over whether or not Venerable Zhìyǐ understood the two truths properly.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if people insist on making it so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Not just for white folks
Content:


fckw said:
https://www.dalailama.com/messages/religious-harmony-1/establishing-harmony-within-religious-diversity it's best if you stick to the religion into which you were born.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not an absolute dictate. He also states that those people with a compelling urge to become Buddhists are free to do so.

As for myself, I was raised in a secular household. So, you are suggesting I should not have adopted Dharma and just remained a materialist?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
From what I understand, on an individual basis our 5 aggregates experience delusion as an obfuscation to our buddha nature, not the other way around. Thus the relative is reliant on the absolute but not the other way around.

Malcolm wrote:
The relative is not "reliant" on the ultimate, since they are just different cognitions of the same entity, one false, the other veridical.

There is no separate entity called "buddhanature" that can be established to exist in a sentient being composed of the five aggregates. If one should assert this is so, this position will be no different than the atman of the nonbuddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
Am I mistaken for not considering those attributes...

Malcolm wrote:
Your statement was in error because it doesn't satisfy the definition of the two truths and their relationship, that's all.

The Buddha taught two truths. Anyone who does not understand the two truths does not understand the Buddha's Dharma.

tkp67 said:
That assumes there is only one perspective on that teaching and that only one perspective is correct.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is only one correct approach to understanding the Buddha's Dharma, and understanding the distinction between the two truths is necessary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Hindu guru devotion is different that guru devotion in Buddhadharma. It's best not to confuse the two.

Simon E. said:
Aye. A description often used, and I think it’s useful, is that the Vajrayana guru is as a spiritual friend.

heart said:
A mahayana guru is a spiritual friend.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Also a vajrayāna guru is a gurukalyanamitra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
Is it normal in Tibetan Buddhism to accept someone you haven’t personally met (but that your mentor/teacher has met)? Can you become the disciple of a guru without meeting them in person (and/or receiving a transmission and/or empowerment from them)?

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot become the disciple of a Vajrayāna guru without receiving empowerment from that person. There is a transitive property in lineages where by taking empowerment from lama b, you also have a disciple relationship with their lama, lama a. For example, if you receive an empowerment of Vajrakilaya from HH Sakya Trizin Ratnavajra, you automatically have a samaya relationship with his father, HH Sakya Trichen, as a lineage guru.

Attending an empowerment is considered meeting them, whether or not you have a personal relationship with them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 4th, 2020 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


tkp67 said:
Am I mistaken for not considering those attributes...

Malcolm wrote:
Your statement was in error because it doesn't satisfy the definition of the two truths and their relationship, that's all.

The Buddha taught two truths. Anyone who does not understand the two truths does not understand the Buddha's Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:



tkp67 said:
If they are not  mutually exclusive how can one statement be the other way around rather than simply standing as a statement that is in context thereof?

I don't understand the differentiation or the benefit of differentiation.

Malcolm wrote:
Relative truth is a mistaken apprehension of a given phenomena; ultimate truth is an unmistaken apprehension of a give phenomena. The truths are inseparable. But, when it comes to which truth relies on which, ultimate truth, expressed in words, is a relative truth, a convention. So, according to Nāgārkuna, without relying on convention, the ultimate cannot be understood, etc.

tkp67 said:
Thank you for unpacking that I find it very clarifying and beneficial.

It still leaves the question how does that negate my statement since I used words to relate it? I did not state universal truth is independent, I did not state parsing relative truth from ultimate truth occurs without using convention in regards to ultimate truth. I don't see how either would be distilled from that statement since I used an economy of words.


Malcolm wrote:
You said:

"relativity does not exist outside the absolute but is reliant on it."

In other words you said, the relative depends on the ultimate. This is a category error.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Accepting a guru you haven’t personally met?
Content:
Sunrise said:
I was just listening to a Ram Dass lecture this morning called "devotion and the guru". There he tells the story of his relationship to his beloved guru and how that relationship become the foundation of his spiritual life. It was a very deep, spiritually intimate relationship. I can't imagine that someone could have a relationship like that with someone they've never met.

Malcolm wrote:
Hindu guru devotion is different that guru devotion in Buddhadharma. It's best not to confuse the two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
relativity does not exist outside the absolute but is reliant on it. Contrasting difference make parsing the two possible.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it's the other way around. As Candrakīrti states, "All entities bear two natures: one relative, one ultimate." There is no emptiness to speak of apart from empty dharmas.

tkp67 said:
If they are not  mutually exclusive how can one statement be the other way around rather than simply standing as a statement that is in context thereof?

I don't understand the differentiation or the benefit of differentiation.

Malcolm wrote:
Relative truth is a mistaken apprehension of a given phenomena; ultimate truth is an unmistaken apprehension of a give phenomena. The truths are inseparable. But, when it comes to which truth relies on which, ultimate truth, expressed in words, is a relative truth, a convention. So, according to Nāgārkuna, without relying on convention, the ultimate cannot be understood, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: Merit
Content:


LastLegend said:
The act of generating merit is also generating wisdom itself while for enlightened beings they naturally do it without self!?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas do not need merit, or wisdom, for that matter. They have it all.

LastLegend said:
I don’t know who is a complete Buddha. I was told enlightened beings who absolutely discerned their nature still continue Bodhisattva work. It’s relevant, I think.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, bodhisattvas and buddhas, two different animals. Bodhisattvas still need to accrue vast amounts of merit to attain the rūpakāya of a buddha, and wisdom, to attain the dharmakāya of a buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Merit
Content:


LastLegend said:
The act of generating merit is also generating wisdom itself while for enlightened beings they naturally do it without self!?

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas do not need merit, or wisdom, for that matter. They have it all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Merit
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
It doesn’t matter that merit is conditioned appearance.

Malcolm wrote:
Merit is rendered uncompounded when it is dedicated with knowledge of the absence of the three wheels: subject, object, action.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: Not just for white folks
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The gods and demons of Africa are ready for Dharma. Why do I know this? Because when I was in South Africa I met with three Sangomas, and the head Sangoma went into trance, and greeted us approvingly when we explained the purpose of our visit was to promulgate Buddhadharma to those who were interested.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Merit
Content:
dolphin_color said:
Is doing something in order to earn merit and help people less meritorious than just doing it to help people?

Malcolm wrote:
It is the opposite. When you do something to attain merit, you then dedicate that merit. When you dedicate merit free of the three spheres, that merit is indestructible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
tkp67 said:
relativity does not exist outside the absolute but is reliant on it. Contrasting difference make parsing the two possible.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it's the other way around. As Candrakīrti states, "All entities bear two natures: one relative, one ultimate." There is no emptiness to speak of apart from empty dharmas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:



Aemilius said:
Mahayana exists also as a method. As such it is often radically different from the Sravakayana, it is practiced in the Chan and Zen schools.

Malcolm wrote:
Sigh.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
PeterC said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/02/business/media/chris-matthews-resigns-steps-down-msnbc.html

Took long enough.  Although he left because he had made inappropriate sexual comments, he should have been fired for being outright partisan and generally terrible at his supposed job

Malcolm wrote:
John Oliver's take down of his signoffs was epic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 6:57 AM
Title: Re: Eyes
Content:
Greggorious said:
I’m aware that some Buddhist traditions stress eyes closed, others eyes open, and others leave it up to you. I’m also aware that Soto Zen is in the eyes open category. Now, I don’t have an issue with this in principle, but I have very sensitive eyes, I blink excessively and my eyes itch a lot when I’m sitting there gazing at the wall. Would it be “sacrilegious” for me to close my eyes during Zazen? I’ve occasionally gone to meditation at a Theravada Temple simply cos they allow you to close your eyes, and not because I prefer that school of Buddhism. A lot of the time when I donit with eyes open my eyes start getting very irritated and then I get pissed off and disillusioned with practice.
I understand the why it’s stressed to have eyes open, as it stops you falling asleep, and Zazen is an open meditation rather than closing off, but still, I’m not sure what to do. If it’s a rule that I HAVE to always have my eyes open then I may well swap traditions, again, not because I want to, but because it would just be more practical for my needs.


Malcolm wrote:
When you are awake, your eyes are open. When you are asleep, your eyes are closed. Buddhadharma is a path of waking up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: The Crisis of Capitalism.
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
Dow roars back from coronavirus sell-off with biggest gain since 2009, surges 5.1%

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/01/awaiting-us-stock-futures-open-at-6-pm-after-wall-streets-worst-week-since-2008.html

Malcolm wrote:
Means nothing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
I'm not a Democrat but I think she's been good for the race.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and now it is time for her to step back and support Sanders. I am not a democrat either, BTW. I am a Berniecrat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Karma Dondrup Tashi said:
Since she is the only woman left in the race I hope she stays in.

Malcolm wrote:
Guess you want a brokered convention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Queequeg said:
Wow.

What will Warren do? I wonder if she stays looking for a bump off the women vote that had previously gone to Klobuchar?

Malcolm wrote:
She has no path. It vanity at this point, if she stays in.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Vipassanā
Content:


monkishlife said:
Vipassana meditation is more or less the same in all traditions of Buddhism, unless I missed something along the way.

Malcolm wrote:
You definitely missed something along the way. Vipassana focuses on the so-called three marks of existence: anitya, dukkha, and anatman, that is, impermanence, suffering, and the absence of personal identity.

Mahāyāna vipaśyāna by contrast focuses in the two fold emptiness: the absence of identity of persons and phenomena. The latter is not taught in the Śrāvaka canon at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Norwegian said:
Klobuchar is out.

Malcolm wrote:
Good, now it is time for Warren to get out too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: What to keep and what to throw away? (amalgamating teachings)?
Content:



Queequeg said:
First, as I've stated, I do not consider myself Nichiren Buddhist anymore. So, my comments should be framed within that.

Malcolm wrote:
That said, you've an undergraduate degree in Buddhist studies and you were a Nichiren Buddhist for decades. So you are the best person to answer this person's question.

Queequeg said:
An MA!

Malcolm wrote:
Ok.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: What to keep and what to throw away? (amalgamating teachings)?
Content:


nichiren-123 said:
Can I ask a specific question?
Does nichiren ever write about the four Noble truths and eightfold path?

Malcolm wrote:
That is a question for Q.

Queequeg said:
First, as I've stated, I do not consider myself Nichiren Buddhist anymore. So, my comments should be framed within that.

Malcolm wrote:
That said, you've an undergraduate degree in Buddhist studies and you were a Nichiren Buddhist for decades. So you are the best person to answer this person's question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 3rd, 2020 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Callousness
Content:



JoaoRodrigues said:
Johnny Dangerous - the most famous living zen master said, I can search the YouTube video with a audio and image recording saying that Nirvana is an extension of eternalism and nihilism. In the same video he said life and death are manifestations, and it can be in all forms, if it’s not as a human, could be as a cloud.

Malcolm wrote:
You've made an error in your hearing comprehension. It's "extinction," not "extension."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Ringu Tulku talk on The 14 Root Samayas of Vajrayana
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The 22 general root and branch samayas come from the vase empowerment. The three inner empowerments also have their own separate samayas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 7:36 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mayor Pete is out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: "Watch of Night" Practice Authentic?
Content:
Tenma said:
So I stumbled upon the following link:
http://www.wisdom-tree.com/wisdom/guide.html

While I can't quite comment on its accuracy, some of the information seems suspicious. Could anyone please confirm if this is a real practice or not? Very little resources on it from a google search.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Yeah, this appears to be total nonsense, I'd stay far away. It's Past-Life Regression with a -very- thin, poorly done Buddhist shell.

Malcolm wrote:
if you run a google search in this guy,  J. Denosky, you find many spurious websites.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
DNS said:
Apparently some pundits (and some on MSNBC nonetheless) are questioning Bernie's viability -- just because he lost South Carolina. In my opinion, Biden will be lucky to win one, maybe two more states. Bernie is doing very well, so far. South Carolina is an exception, mostly Black-American, older demographic.

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/01/south-carolina-results-biden-black-vote-sanders-msnbc/

Malcolm wrote:
MSDNC definitely hates Bernie.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: What to keep and what to throw away? (amalgamating teachings)?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
OK, so I was brought up a Nichiren Buddhist but have been interested in tendai/tiantai, zen, theravada as well as madhyamaka philosophy and huayen philosophy. I also feel an affinity for Taoism.
Learning from such a broad range of traditions means I'm often confused as to what to put my faith and investigational energy into.
In other words, how to find consistency and combine the useful aspects of each tradition into my own personal philosophy.
how to create the relevant framework? Or what 'meta-principles to adopt'?
Maybe I'm spouting BS and need to go about things in a different way to the way I'm currently doing things. Only you guys can tell me that.

Malcolm wrote:
You maintain your daily practice, and study widely. It appears to me that Nichiren Gossho, etc., is meant to be a comprehensive practice. But that does not mean that you should not study widely. In particular, you should study what Nichiren studies, if possible. And you should study the views he opposed.

nichiren-123 said:
Can I ask a specific question?
Does nichiren ever write about the four Noble truths and eightfold path?

Malcolm wrote:
That is a question for Q.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: What to keep and what to throw away? (amalgamating teachings)?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
OK, so I was brought up a Nichiren Buddhist but have been interested in tendai/tiantai, zen, theravada as well as madhyamaka philosophy and huayen philosophy. I also feel an affinity for Taoism.
Learning from such a broad range of traditions means I'm often confused as to what to put my faith and investigational energy into.
In other words, how to find consistency and combine the useful aspects of each tradition into my own personal philosophy.
how to create the relevant framework? Or what 'meta-principles to adopt'?
Maybe I'm spouting BS and need to go about things in a different way to the way I'm currently doing things. Only you guys can tell me that.

Malcolm wrote:
You maintain your daily practice, and study widely. It appears to me that Nichiren Gossho, etc., is meant to be a comprehensive practice. But that does not mean that you should not study widely. In particular, you should study what Nichiren studies, if possible. And you should study the views he opposed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 2nd, 2020 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


Aemilius said:
That is clinging to the remedy, you are supposed to throw away the raft once you are across.

Malcolm wrote:
When I am across, I'll send the raft back, I won't just throw it away. Someone else might need it.

And if samsara does not exist, then of course there is not even a pinhead of happiness in it, since it does not exist.

On the other hand, "ultimately nonexistent" does not mean samsara is like a barren women's child. It seems like you are using the ultimate to negate the relative, but that is a wrong view. I sure you would not commit that error, since you have proclaimed yourself to be on the other side, and therefore, to possess omniscience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: "Watch of Night" Practice Authentic?
Content:
Tenma said:
So I stumbled upon the following link:
http://www.wisdom-tree.com/wisdom/guide.html

While I can't quite comment on its accuracy, some of the information seems suspicious. Could anyone please confirm if this is a real practice or not? Very little resources on it from a google search.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just some bullshit some guy made up and posted to the internet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
tingdzin said:
Hate to be a spoilsport, but I think Biden won in SC because he is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as the type of Democrat that used to have the working class at heart. The radicals just don't get that.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, he won because Clyburn anointed him. Exit polls indicate that half the black electorate waited to see who Clyburn picked.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


Aemilius said:
Basically, I don't think it is very useful to call human progress "suffering". Or things like the Declaration Human Rights,  the systems of international law, and international agreements concerning a vast number of issues, that have been achieved with enormous efforts,... -are they all merely "suffering" ?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the suffering of change.

Aemilius said:
I know that, but words have meanings that are well established in our common culture. Buddhists exist in the modern culture because there are Human rights and other legal structures that allow that kind of things to be. It would be different in for example Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, as far as I know anyway.
It is not intelligent use of common language to call basic factors of human existence "suffering".

Malcolm wrote:
Sure it is, for example, the suffering of the compounded, the third of the three sufferings.


Aemilius said:
Let's say that  you are operated in a hospital successfully of cancer for example, would You then say to the doctor that the operation is "suffering"?
If You said that, You would be considered insane. The result of the operation is impermanent etc.., but You are not an idiot (presumably) and therefore You would be most thankful to the personnel of the place.

Malcolm wrote:
Despite my feelings of gratitude, I would understand this to be a sign of the the suffering of illness and death. If the doctor were to question me about the nature of suffering, I would be perfectly frank with them, and explain how the Buddha describes three or more kinds of suffering, including the suffering of change.

In short, there is no happiness in samsara, not even the size of the head of a pin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Best material for malas
Content:
Tatsuo said:
What makes bodhiseed superior to other materials?

Malcolm wrote:
It is mentioned in several tantras as being the best overall material to use, since it can be used for all four activities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Best material for malas
Content:
Tatsuo said:
What is the best material for malas? I'm especially interested in the actual material, it's durability and how it ages.
So far I really like the look and scent of sandalwood malas but older sandalwood malas sometimes look grayish in pictures online and the scent seems to disappear after some years.

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhiseed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Physiological symptoms as a fruition of practice?
Content:


Pero said:
Can it come back out?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, when it needs to.

Könchok Thrinley said:
That is quite interesting, so basically the practice causes the body to respond in that area as it would in case of cold and other shrinkage causing situations?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a sign of gaining control over the lower vāyu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice
Content:


yagmort said:
also, what about Dudjom Tersar in general and Thröma Nakmo in particular? where do they stand on "intricasy" level?

Malcolm wrote:
For daily practice, not so bad. Troma is a complete path, but you do have to learn how to place chod instruments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice
Content:



PadmaVonSamba said:
Vajrayana Buddhism is very elaborate.

Malcolm wrote:
It can be, but does not have to be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 1st, 2020 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Physiological symptoms as a fruition of practice?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nope. I am absolutely serious, actually.

Pero said:
Can it come back out?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, when it needs to.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Physiological symptoms as a fruition of practice?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, if you are a man, your penis withdraws into a sheath, or otherwise becomes very short.

tingdzin said:
What a straight line, but I'll ignore it.

All the books say that all kinds of psychological and somatic experiences can arise. Don't take them as badges of merit or of symptoms of imminent destruction (unless they persist). Everybody has a different set of constituents, so there are no rules.

Malcolm wrote:
It wasn’t a straight line. I wasn’t kidding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Physiological symptoms as a fruition of practice?
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
It really depends. When doing tummo for example then there is a physical manifestation as a part of the fruition.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, if you are a man, your penis withdraws into a sheath, or otherwise becomes very short.

rai said:
hope you are joking


Malcolm wrote:
Nope. I am absolutely serious, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: What are Buddhist Deities?
Content:
smcj said:
I have another sound bite about this. I spoke to a well known Kagyu lama when I drove to meet with HHK17 with DW discussions in mind. He said that the deities were real and in front of you (creation stage). I gave the standard DW objection, that they are only the nature of one's own mind, non-dual, etc. He said that's the part where you dissolved them into emptiness and merge them with yourself (completion stage).

It was a private conversation so I don't want to name him, but he's one of the lamas that has unlimited access to HHK17.

Malcolm wrote:
The two stages are inseparable. The deity arises from emptiness and vanishes back into emptiness, just like everything else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 8:04 AM
Title: Re: What are Buddhist Deities?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, this is an error.

smcj said:
Most Nyingma practices are Padmasambhava appearing in different ways. What’s the difference between the historical Guru Rinpoche and Vajrakilaya?

And , unlike Sakyamuni, didn’t G.R. say that after he was no longer physically here that people could pray to him and that he’d be there?

In Karma Kagyu we do lot’s of prayers to lineage lamas. Were (are?) they not actual people?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: both hindu and buddist at the same time
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
You however, are the perennial "expert."

Malcolm wrote:
No, that's my job.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Physiological symptoms as a fruition of practice?
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
It really depends. When doing tummo for example then there is a physical manifestation as a part of the fruition.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, if you are a man, your penis withdraws into a sheath, or otherwise becomes very short.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
Semde is a complete practice by itself.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is not correct. Sems sde was integrated with Vajrayāna practice—it was and is never practiced as a stand-alone system. Norbu Rinpoche mentioned this many times.

M

Könchok Thrinley said:
My mistake then. What about longde and menangde, are those stand-alone systems?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
Semde is a complete practice by itself.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is not correct. Sems sde was integrated with Vajrayāna practice—it was and is never practiced as a stand-alone system. Norbu Rinpoche mentioned this many times.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: What are Buddhist Deities?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Tara, as a deity, is just a name for our own state. As ChNN puts it, "Tara is the state of Dzogchen."

smcj said:
Correct, same as “electrons are particles” is a true statement.

Shröedinger’s cat.

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all, the bag is open. When we practice deity yoga, we are realizing our own state, not the state of some other being, buddha or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: What are Buddhist Deities?
Content:


smcj said:
You could say the same about the guru, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Not exactly. It is a little different. Generally, the guru introduces one to this knowledge. Then you practice this knowledge. Then you realize this knowledge. Sometimes this is referred to as the outer guru, inner guru, and secret guru. But when one is practicing the creation stage, there is no deity from the clarity and emptiness of one's mind.

smcj said:
Could be.

But for my own purposes I think I’ll stick with Bokar R’s take on this.

Malcolm wrote:
Tara, as a deity, is just a name for our own state. As ChNN puts it, "Tara is the state of Dzogchen."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: What are Buddhist Deities?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is what the deity is. It is that simple.

smcj said:
You could say the same about the guru, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Not exactly. It is a little different. Generally, the guru introduces one to this knowledge. Then you practice this knowledge. Then you realize this knowledge. Sometimes this is referred to as the outer guru, inner guru, and secret guru. But when one is practicing the creation stage, there is no deity from the clarity and emptiness of one's mind.
edit,  there is no deity apart from...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: What are Buddhist Deities?
Content:
KathyLauren said:
I puzzled over this for a long time, and it was keeping me from wholeheartedly engaging in my practice.  Until one line from a sadhana jumped out at me: it said that the deity was "the manifestation of the emptiness and awareness of my own mind." That completely clarified the issue for me, and I had no further doubts about my practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is what the deity is. It is that simple.

smcj said:
You could say the same about the guru, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Not exactly. It is a little different. Generally, the guru introduces one to this knowledge. Then you practice this knowledge. Then you realize this knowledge. Sometimes this is referred to as the outer guru, inner guru, and secret guru. But when one is practicing the creation stage, there is no deity from the clarity and emptiness of one's mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: What are Buddhist Deities?
Content:
KathyLauren said:
I puzzled over this for a long time, and it was keeping me from wholeheartedly engaging in my practice.  Until one line from a sadhana jumped out at me: it said that the deity was "the manifestation of the emptiness and awareness of my own mind." That completely clarified the issue for me, and I had no further doubts about my practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is what the deity is. It is that simple.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Physiological symptoms as a fruition of practice?
Content:
SonamGyatso said:
Hey, DW

I was wondering if it was common for physiological symptoms to occur from Vajrayana practices.
I have been experiencing some curious things, but nothing alarming. The medical specialists I visit tell me I'm healthy and have no positive results on tests.
symptoms vary, and usually, they come and go in a matter of 1 day or less.

Details about why this might happen would be appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
What symptoms?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 29th, 2020 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Creditors
Content:
cjdevries said:
Let's say that you've done some very unskillful actions in the past and now your karmic creditors are coming after you in dreams, trying to take your life.  At the same time, they are threatening your family.  Are there any prayers/ceremonies that can help protect your family?  I have read that if spirits are particularly vengeful they can affect one's family, even causing illnesses, etc. to one's family.  What are methods of protection or ritual that can be done to help protect one's family so they don't suffer the consequences of someone else's deed?

Malcolm wrote:
sang offerings and chod.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 10:34 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:



Lazy Lubber said:
I assume 'ignorance' is a mental phenomena. So are you saying each of the 12 limbs refers to an aspect of mental phenomena? Are birth, aging & death physical or are they mental? Thanks

PadmaVonSamba said:
Ignorance isn’t mental phenomena.
Ignorance is lack of mental phenomena.
That’s why it’s called ignorance.

Malcolm wrote:
Ignorance (avidya) is a state of misknowing, not an absence of mental phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 9:57 AM
Title: Re: Selling the dharma
Content:


tobes said:
Can you not see the difference between "pay for sutra translation, charge for sutra" and "donate for sutra translation, make sutras freely available to all"?

Malcolm wrote:
84,000 pays $250 per folio side. People pay, are getting paid, etc. Nothing is free. In this case, since the main donor for this project is a millionaire several times over, it is no sweat of his or her back since most of those millions were donations anyway, to begin with. Someone always pays. The metaphysics we attach to this or that economic exchange is not the measure of whether someone paid something or not.

If you try to buy books from the BDK, you have to pay for them. If you want to download the PDF, well, that is "free."

Thus far, 84000 has avoided printing its books. If they were to print them, it is like that they would have to charge for them. Nothing is free. Someone always pays.

tobes said:
At the end of the day, there is in fact a difference between making Dharma a gift or a commodity with a price.

If you can't see a distinction there, there is little point debating.

Malcolm wrote:
The value of things purchased always exceeds the value of things obtained for free. The culture of patronage, in many ways, is far less honest and far more corruptible than the fee for service culture, which in fact is the defacto model Tibetan Buddhism actually runs on and always has.

In Buddhist history, patrons have had inordinate input on just what Dharma gets promulgated, and that has not always been kind to Dzogchen teachings, not to mention Vajrayana in SE Asia, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 7:19 AM
Title: Re: Selling the dharma
Content:


tobes said:
Can you not see the difference between "pay for sutra translation, charge for sutra" and "donate for sutra translation, make sutras freely available to all"?

Malcolm wrote:
84,000 pays $250 per folio side. People pay, are getting paid, etc. Nothing is free. In this case, since the main donor for this project is a millionaire several times over, it is no sweat of his or her back since most of those millions were donations anyway, to begin with. Someone always pays. The metaphysics we attach to this or that economic exchange is not the measure of whether someone paid something or not.

If you try to buy books from the BDK, you have to pay for them. If you want to download the PDF, well, that is "free."

Thus far, 84000 has avoided printing its books. If they were to print them, it is like that they would have to charge for them. Nothing is free. Someone always pays.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: both hindu and buddist at the same time
Content:



Queequeg said:
If all you want to do is package it up and say, "Not Buddhism", that's fine, too. There's certainly plenty of basis to say that, and many have argued that.

Malcolm wrote:
No, what I wanted to point out is that it's complicated, and also to merely dismiss it is just as wrong as merely dismissing Bon in Tibet.

Another point of congruence is the presence of oracles in Japan, which in many respects is similar to the practice of oracles in Tibet.

Queequeg said:
Oh, then we're on the same page. I don't know much about Bon or Shugendo but from the little I do know, it has occurred to me that their relationships to Buddhism, particularly Vajrayana, occupy similar spaces. With regard to Shugendo, it seems that some of it appears to be expressions of Tantric yogic practices that utilize teachings on Three Mysteries, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
The main difference seems to be, that where the Bonpos revealed an entire religion which is analogous in every respect to modern Tibetan Buddhism, with a vast literature containing sutras, tantras, vinaya, and so on; Shugendo seems to have existed on the margins of Japanese religious life, and seemingly never developed a major independent literature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: both hindu and buddist at the same time
Content:



Queequeg said:
If all you want to do is package it up and say, "Not Buddhism", that's fine, too. There's certainly plenty of basis to say that, and many have argued that.

Malcolm wrote:
No, what I wanted to point out is that it's complicated, and also to merely dismiss it is just as wrong as merely dismissing Bon in Tibet.

Another point of congruence is the presence of oracles in Japan, which in many respects is similar to the practice of oracles in Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: both hindu and buddist at the same time
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I don't know. It's up to you if you want to correct me or not. I said "should," but that was just my opinion. You are your own person.

That's what I think about Shugendō, having only read a few sources. I have opinions about Manichaeans too, but have only read a few sources about their religion as well. It's on the forum and public, my opinions about Shugendō. If you want to post something that says something different about Shugendō, it's up to you.
"Shugendo has long been a neglected topic in the field of Japanese historical and religious studies in the west, which is in turn a reflection of Japanese academic attitudes."
Shugendo is notoriously difficult to define and there is a continual seepage of topics between it and other areas, such as divinity cults, female exclusion from sacred sites (nyonin kinsei), pilgrimage practices, magico-religious rituals, and in recent years, ecological concerns. Shugendo was not studied extensively even in Japan until thepost-war period, and despite what has been written above, still lingers today under a cloud in some parts of academia, where certain scholars continue to share Anesaki’s opinion that it is superstitious, syncretic, and somehow disreputable, and so not worth serious attention. This is due inpart to the fact that Shugendo was banned in 1872 for its eclecticism by a reformist government anxious to be perceived as having shed the shackles of a ‘feudal’ or benighted past. Shugendo priests were given the choice of becoming (Shinto) shrine priests or fully ordained priests within the tradition (Tendai or Shingon) to which their institutions had been affiliated,or giving up their religious role completely (see Sekimori 2000, 2005b).The very small number (less then ten per cent) who joined Buddhist institutions found themselves ranked inferior to regular priests and encouraged to integrate with their new sects rather than try to maintain their Shugendo traditions: initially, they were forbidden to wear their distinctive robes, to perform Shugendo-style rituals and to conduct Shugendo-related activities.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.academia.edu/8006649/Shugendo_Japanese_Mountain_Religion_-_State_of_the_Field_and_Bibliographic_Review

In short, Shugendo is an indigenous religion, with elements borrowed from other traditions, which suffered from repression.

https://www.academia.edu/39755323/The_Robe_of_Leaves_A_Nineteenth-Century_Text_of_Shugendo_Apologetics


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Selling the dharma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, which is why one should be prepared to give away your family members to anyone who wants them, like the Bodhisattva Viśvaṃtara handing over his wife and children to become servants of a brahmin.

Pero said:
I find this soooo funny, really. I mean how would this even work these days? Or are wife and children husband's property in the US or something?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, when people start invoking traditional Buddhist values, I think it is only fair to serve them up. People with less financial resources should understand too that every dollar they spend on Dharma brings them more merit. So, they should not complain if some Dharma program is out of their reach because of finances. They should understand that do not have the merit to participate. I myself have experienced this many times, and still do. I cannot afford to go to all the programs I would like to attend.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:
Aemilius said:
Basically, I don't think it is very useful to call human progress "suffering". Or things like the Declaration Human Rights,  the systems of international law, and international agreements concerning a vast number of issues, that have been achieved with enormous efforts,... -are they all merely "suffering" ?

SteRo said:
I don't think the talk of "suffering" is appropriate.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so you think the first truth of nobles, sarvadukham, suffering everywhere, should not be the first truth of nobles?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: Compassion to evil doers
Content:
confusedlayman said:
Hey guys, when I do compassion meditation towards me, then to parents, then to friends, then to strangers, then to enimeies. I have big problem when it comes to enimies?

Malcolm wrote:
The oral instruction is that if one has difficulty meditating with compassion towards enemies, one engages in equalizing oneself with other, understanding that most sentient beings are only motivated by seeking their own happiness, and in their ignorance, they cause others misery in the process. In the same way, we too, seeking our own happiness, have caused others misery.

Also, one must understand that the appearance of sentient beings as friends, enemies, and neutral, is a result of our own actions towards them in the past.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: both hindu and buddist at the same time
Content:
SonamTashi said:
They never disclose their own mantras to the public or even to
different lineages. These are retained in the closed-fist of the teacher (gurumuṣṭi

Caoimhghín said:
So basically it sounds like to generally do a better job of being discreet than some people.

Is this real tantra though, or is it like Shugendō, a child-student who ran away from his parent-guru and decided to pretend to be Shintō in the mountains of Japan.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 28th, 2020 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


Aemilius said:
Basically, I don't think it is very useful to call human progress "suffering". Or things like the Declaration Human Rights,  the systems of international law, and international agreements concerning a vast number of issues, that have been achieved with enormous efforts,... -are they all merely "suffering" ?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the suffering of change.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Selling the dharma
Content:



tobes said:
I think this is the right response.

Thing like this are happening from the Mahayana POV: https://84000.co/


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because someone paid.

tobes said:
Do we actually believe in danaparamita or not?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, which is why one should be prepared to give away your family members to anyone who wants them, like the Bodhisattva Viśvaṃtara handing over his wife and children to become servants of a brahmin.

But if you can't do that, giving up something valuable to you is also ok, like money. And it is also ok for Dharma teachers in the West to charge money for their time and expertise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Selling the dharma
Content:


mandala said:
For example, a local FPMT centre is charging over $500 for a weeks teachings with a visiting Lama-

Malcolm wrote:
Perfectly reasonable.

mandala said:
Seriously? Who can afford that?

Malcolm wrote:
Whoever makes it a priority.

mandala said:
In fact it would be cheaper to travel overseas to India to attend teachings, including airfares, than to go to my local centre...

Malcolm wrote:
India is no longer so inexpensive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: A question about secrecy within Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


tomdzogchen27 said:
But the need for retreats that are way more expensive than I can manage makes it hard to receive advanced teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Then, you should accumulate merit by practicing Ngondro. Your inability to receive higher teachings means one of two things: you do not have a karmic cause and condition to meet the teachers you want to meet; or two, you have not accumulated enough merit to meet them. Of the two obstacles, the former is impossible to overcome, but latter problem can be overcome easily with purification and gathering merit (i.e. vajrasattva and mandala offerings).

Tata1 said:
Would trondu do the job?

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on the person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:


Dan74 said:
Interestingly no one responds to this.

Malcolm wrote:
Who has time to watch a half hour of some guy on the internet?


Sanders voted no on Yemen. He did vote on going to war against the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, but since said he was mistaken to do so. He tends to vote against the National Defense Authorization Act. Despite this, he won helped win a defense contract to build fighter jets in VT. So no, Sanders is not a pacifist, but he is definitely an anti-war candidate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 10:21 AM
Title: Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice
Content:




Tata1 said:
One sadhana a day is quite a lot

Johnny Dangerous said:
It's not daily, it's a weekly commitment, and I usually do it with a group.

Anyway, the conflict I'm finding is that my Vajra brothers and sisters with whom I regularly interact in meatspace are not Dzogchenpa for the most part, and tend to be much more excited about and focused on initiations etc. than I am. It's not as if I don't consider what I've received precious, or that I'm trying to throw them out, they just often feel...redundant at this point. I am wondering if that's the wrong way to look at them.

tobes said:
I'd tread carefully. I've found that all Dharma methods I've received can degenerate very swiftly if they are not maintained with great diligence. Once degenerated, they can seem less useful, even meaningless. Then, they can become restored, and one can see how the problem was not in the Dharma method, but in the way it was being treated.

But this is merely the starting point.

The deeper point is to continually meditate on which approach will actually liberate you. It sounds to me like you are gaining confidence that you have a true answer to this, and this at least part of your sense that other ways are redundant.

I can relate; been going through a very similar thing.

Malcolm wrote:
The main point is the completion stage. It doesn’t matter much how one gets there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 7:27 AM
Title: Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
This relates to a question I posted recently about whether there is such a thing as “casual vajrayana”.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not really, since the whole point of Vajrayāna is to take the result as the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Each karma is unique just as different rivers are unique,
even though they lead to the same ocean.

Malcolm wrote:
I assume here you mean the ocean of suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Sometimes the simplest answer is the hardest to see for some reason.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
Anyway, the conflict I'm finding is that my Vajra brothers and sisters with whom I regularly interact in meatspace are not Dzogchenpa for the most part, and tend to be much more excited about and focused on initiations etc. than I am. It's not as if I don't consider what I've received precious, or that I'm trying to throw them out, they just often feel...redundant at this point. I am wondering if that's the wrong way to look at them.

Malcolm wrote:
You are a student of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. He is, according to you, your root guru. According to him, if you do not know what to practice, then practice guru yoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: both hindu and buddist at the same time
Content:


PeterC said:
What do you mean by “Hinduism”?

Where would these monks you mention come from?  Any of them Thai?

monkishlife said:
My point is, is that some Theravadan schools are highly, highly strict as they consider themselves the purists in Buddhism. A good example would be the Thai Forest Monk traditions. It would be hardest for someone trying to combine yogi spirituality with that branch Theravada Buddhism, particularly in a more formal sense.

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all. Any Theravadin monk can practice Mahāyāna or Vajrayāna without having to change anything. In fact, at one point in history, Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna was quite widespread amongst Theravādins.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Decreased interest in Tantric practice
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I have found my interest in new Tantric practices waning over time. Prior to taking teachings from ChNN I received a lot of initiations, and generally took attending them quite seriously. Since this time I have the reoccurring feeling that I have enough of them, and find it harder to get all ginned up about them. I do one Sadhana regularly and that's about it.

I have an opportunity coming up to receive an empowerment I should probably get, but at the time, I don't feel particularly inspired. I will be attending the retreat where it's being offered regardless.

How does one handle this?

Malcolm wrote:
100% guru yoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
JoaoRodrigues said:
The west see karma as action-consequence, cause-effect, a sort of application of justice, something that's maybe badly understood.

"The word Karma in sanskrit actually means doing, action. Karma comes from the root Kri that means to do."

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, Buddha was very precise in how he defined karma. Karma is volition.


JoaoRodrigues said:
If we see everything as a unity, the entire field of events, happenings, everything that you do(karma) you're actually doing it to yourself.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadharma negates such a unity.


JoaoRodrigues said:
I don't know if that's the Buddhist concept, but if it is, karma doesn't necessarily have anything to do with individuality.


Malcolm wrote:
The karma that the Buddha taught is absolutely individual:
"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
Simon E. said:
...karma is intention, the result of the intention is vipaka.
Frequently when mention is made of karma what is actually meant is vipaka...

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: A question about secrecy within Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


tomdzogchen27 said:
But the need for retreats that are way more expensive than I can manage makes it hard to receive advanced teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Then, you should accumulate merit by practicing Ngondro. Your inability to receive higher teachings means one of two things: you do not have a karmic cause and condition to meet the teachers you want to meet; or two, you have not accumulated enough merit to meet them. Of the two obstacles, the former is impossible to overcome, but latter problem can be overcome easily with purification and gathering merit (i.e. vajrasattva and mandala offerings).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
Queequeg said:
Probably repetitive of what's above, but here's my general understanding.

1. Karma is determined by intent.

Malcolm wrote:
Karma is not determined by intent, it is intent (cetana).

Otherwise, what you wrote is fine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Horror movie people
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
I really enjoyed The Sinister. I usually dislike horror movies but that one kinda fit my taste. I have a really soft spot for demons.

Malcolm wrote:
Get Out! is pretty good for the faint of heart.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Horror movie people
Content:
dolphin_color said:
I honestly don't understand why people enjoy horror movies.

Malcolm wrote:
My guru, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, an old chod practitioner, thought horror movies were hilarious. He also wept at animal videos. Another of my gurus, Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje, favorite movie was The Terminator.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Horror movie people
Content:
ford_truckin said:
No idea but Texas Chainsaw Massacre is the best horror movie of all time.

Malcolm wrote:
The second one was better, the one with Dennis Hopper.

But the best horror movie of all time was 28 Days Later.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 27th, 2020 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
SteRo said:
Actions and activities lead to effects in the sphere of experience of the agent. So your simile of an echo is appropriate. The main thing is what motivates these actions and activities which might be percepts and/or concepts that entail an impulse to act.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no agents that are responsible for actions.

SteRo said:
Agreed. I used 'agent' to denote the location of origin of action which is also the location of the fruition of the effect of that action. It might sound a bit strange to say 'the sphere of experience acts'.

Malcolm wrote:
For example, actions performed in the kamadhātu will not ripen in the rūpadhātu, and vice versa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
SteRo said:
Actions and activities lead to effects in the sphere of experience of the agent. So your simile of an echo is appropriate. The main thing is what motivates these actions and activities which might be percepts and/or concepts that entail an impulse to act.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no agents that are responsible for actions.

SteRo said:
Great King, the five aggregates are “painted” by one’s own karma. As an analogy, O Great King, there is no painter who paints the peacock’s five-colored tail, and neither is there any paint involved. Rather, it is painted by the peacock’s own karma. Great King, in the same way, childish ordinary beings arise from reciprocal conditions, painted by their own karma.’

Malcolm wrote:
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh247.html?fbclid=IwAR1S9KjdTZcuVOPa6zB1KnEPiHwO_L4xSL4uKfTV2lqd90Zsr1sC7dPkZVw


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
SonamTashi said:
The only sense in which you can say people "share" karma is in that they have similar karma. Not that they actually have the same karma.

Beings in the human realm have similar karmas that manifest as the human realm, but we don't all have the exact same karmas stemming from the same exact same actions.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:


SteRo said:
Actions and activities lead to effects in the sphere of experience of the agent. So your simile of an echo is appropriate. The main thing is what motivates these actions and activities which might be percepts and/or concepts that entail an impulse to act.

Malcolm wrote:
You can explain this in simpler terms: afflictions (desire, hatred, and ignorance) result in actions, which is turn result in suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:


SteRo said:
Karma is both, individual and collective.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no true "collective" karma. There is however similar karma that manifests similar results. But all karma is individual, never collective.

SteRo said:
Well, from my perspective there is no "true" karma at all, so your differentiation might be relevant only in a scholarly context.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "true." "True" means here "conventionally valid." All conventionally valid karma is individual. There is no "collective" karma that can be said to be conventionally valid.

SteRo said:
"'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'...

"[This is a fact that] one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained...

"Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker...

"A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."

Malcolm wrote:
— AN 5.57


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:


nichiren-123 said:
My understanding was that karma is an action that you do which travels out into the world as a causal process and that somehow returns to us, as I said, like an echo.

Malcolm wrote:
Literally, the Buddha said, "karma (action) is volition (cetana) and what proceeds from volition (derived actions of body and voice).

Nāgārjuna and Vasubandhu merely reinforce this statement.

Then there is karmavipaka, the ripening of karma, and that is where things become more complicated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:



nichiren-123 said:
Where can I go to get a introduction to the twelve nidanas? They've always confused me...

Malcolm wrote:
The best place is chapter 2 of the Abhidharmakośabhasyaṃ. There are four interlocking schemes: static dependent origination, serial dependent origination, prolonged dependent origination, and momentary dependent origination.

Prolonged dependent origination means that ignorance and formations are the affliction and karma of the past life, which act as causes for this life. Consciousness through sensation are the result in this life, suffering. Craving and addiction are the causal afflictions in this life; becoming is karma. These three act as the cause for the suffering of the next life: birth, and aging and death.

You should look at Abhidharmakośabhasyaṃ (Pruden), pp. 410-437 for further explanations of the other three kinds.

Sādhaka said:
Then in Buddhadharma, when we talk talk about dependent-origination, we’re not really concerned with the alleged interconnectedness of everything in the world and all the related processes of its apparent arisings; we’re actually only concerned with the dependently-originated processes of the mind (and speech & body) of the continuum of the individual(?)


nichiren-123 said:
I might be misreading you, but karma doesn't have much to do with the external world then?

Malcolm wrote:
The Abhidharmakośabhasyaṃ chapter on karma, chapter four, details the specifics of karma as it relates to rebirth, ripening in this life, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
...
What I can't wrap my head around is how karma is individual and how your karma is supposed to maintain the cycle of samsara. It seems to contradict impermanence and non-self in my head. Also, how does the individual being not disperse at death?

SteRo said:
Karma is both, individual and collective.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no true "collective" karma. There is however similar karma that manifests similar results. But all karma is individual, never collective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Then in Buddhadharma, when we talk talk about dependent-origination, we’re not really concerned with the alleged interconnectedness of everything in the world and all the related processes of its apparent arisings; we’re actually only concerned with the dependently-originated processes of the mind (and speech & body) of the continuum of the individual(?)

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is correct. However, momentary and serial dependent origination do cover all compounded phenomena. But our interest is in liberation, and so we focus on the dependent origination as it pertains to living beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Your questions are all addressed by Nāgārjuna in the Verses of Dependent Origination:

https://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-masters/nagarjuna/heart-dependent-origination

nichiren-123 said:
Where can I go to get a introduction to the twelve nidanas? They've always confused me...

Malcolm wrote:
The best place is chapter 3 of the Abhidharmakośabhasyaṃ. There are four interlocking schemes: static dependent origination, serial dependent origination, prolonged dependent origination, and momentary dependent origination.

Prolonged dependent origination means that ignorance and formations are the affliction and karma of the past life, which act as causes for this life. Consciousness through sensation are the result in this life, suffering. Craving and addiction are the causal afflictions in this life; becoming is karma. These three act as the cause for the suffering of the next life: birth, and aging and death.

You should look at Abhidharmakośabhasyaṃ (Pruden), pp. 410-437 for further explanations of the other three kinds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: The role of truth in Buddhism?
Content:


Lazy Lubber said:
I assume 'ignorance' is a mental phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
Ignorance refers to the state of being afflicted. Formations refers to the karmas that are motivated by affliction.

Basically, all terms of the twelve links of dependent origination can be boiled down to affliction, action, and suffering.

https://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-masters/nagarjuna/heart-dependent-origination


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: How is karma individual?
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
I'd like to have a detailed discussion on how karma works.

I can understand cause and effect. That nothing happens in a vacuum and your actions will somehow come back to you like an echo when you shout inside a large hall.

What I can't wrap my head around is how karma is individual and how your karma is supposed to maintain the cycle of samsara. It seems to contradict impermanence and non-self in my head. Also, how does the individual being not disperse at death?

I see our lives as like waves on the ocean, each wave being a separate phenomena or dharma. while we exist as long as conditions are favorable as some sort of continuum, like the waves travelling through the environment, there comes a point where all phenomena no longer have the energy to be maintained and hence disperse.

Looking forward to some engaging discussion on this topic

Malcolm wrote:
Your questions are all addressed by Nāgārjuna in the Verses of Dependent Origination:

https://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-masters/nagarjuna/heart-dependent-origination


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 26th, 2020 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: Which Nalanda pandit?
Content:
dolphin_color said:
Which Nalanda pandit should I read first? Nagarjuna, Aryadeva, Chandrakirti, or Shantarakshita? I'd like to read one of their writings, rather than start with a commentary or guide.

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna and Aryadeva could not possibly have been Nalanda paṇḍitas because Nalanda, as a university, did not exist in the 2nd and 3rd century, CE. hat said, of course there was a strong school of Madhyamaka located at Nalanda after its founding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 25th, 2020 at 12:59 PM
Title: Re: Power places
Content:
dolphin_color said:
I've heard about power places in Asia, but I wonder: How can I assess if a place in the West (in nature) is a power place for meditation and practice? Are there formal metrics for doing so? Or informal metrics? Or is the designation of "power place" just a matter of tradition and geography?

Malcolm wrote:
You have to be there for some time to see if a place is such a place.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 25th, 2020 at 12:54 PM
Title: Re: The limit of compounded phenomena
Content:
dolphin_color said:
partless particles is incoherent
And if this is so, at least in theory, my understanding is there should be no limit to the level of analysis.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no point in analyzing incoherence beyond the fact this or that premise about reality is incoherent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 25th, 2020 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: The limit of compounded phenomena
Content:
dolphin_color said:
I get the negation of inherent existence part, but what determines the "the limit of analysis" conventionally?

Malcolm wrote:
The limit of analysis happens when there is nothing further to analyze. For example, showing that the proposition of partless particles is incoherent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 25th, 2020 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: The limit of compounded phenomena
Content:
dolphin_color said:
I think a logician could easily infer that the classic analysis of particles leads to the view that forms are, in theory, infinitely decomposable. Although, perhaps knowing that is not particularly useful from a Buddhist perspective.
So they are infinitely decomposable according to the theory that denies the existence of a partless particle, but there is some kind of limit on how far down we can decompose a substance, stopping at subtle particles. Is the limit imposed by tradition, or is there some kind of knowledge limit, or something else?

Malcolm wrote:
The limit is what whatever the limit of analysis is available plus the negation of inherent existence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 24th, 2020 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Democratic Party abandoned the New Deal under Clinton, and has been "GOP lite" ever since.

"Clinton was genuinely concerned with improving the lot of working-class Americans. Yet all of his policies to that end were hemmed in by a neoliberal framework that had been embraced by both sides of the aisle by the 1990s. Sometimes this was against his wishes—when discussing his first budget, Clinton famously complained, “You mean to tell me that the success of my economic program and my reelection hinges on the Federal Reserve and a bunch of frak bond traders?” But it also became a central feature of Clintonism. This economic straitjacket was the result of a fight that had started decades before. After the Great Depression and the Second World War, classical laissez-faire economics had been profoundly discredited, and the Democratic Party had come to accept that strict controls on the markets and protections for workers—in the form of pro-union legislation, the regulatory state, antitrust policy, and so on—were needed to moderate the ruthless swings of capitalism." https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-rise-and-fall-of-clintonism/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 24th, 2020 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:



Queequeg said:
Truth hurts.

Malcolm wrote:
But in good way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 23rd, 2020 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Könchok Thrinley said:
https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1231021453270769664

The comments made me quite mad to be honest. Is the desinformation around him so bad? Did they really accuse him of dealing with Russia?

Malcolm wrote:
The DNC are idiots.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 23rd, 2020 at 11:01 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:


Wayfarer said:
The real malefactor behind all this, apart from Trump himself, is Murdoch.

Malcolm wrote:
Spot on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 22nd, 2020 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:



PeterC said:
So let’s suppose they lose.  Having obstructed multiple election security bills, crippled the federal elections commission and installed cronies in key roles in the intelligence system, they (a) know that there will be foreign influence in the elections, (b) don’t intend to do a thing to stop it, and (c) will have control of all the information about it.  So if trump loses, what’s to stop him claiming that the election was compromised, that the Russians intervened to win a couple of key states for the democrats, and that the result must therefore be suspended until they can “figure out what’s going on”?  He’s sworn in, he’s in the White House, all his appointees are at their jobs, a majority of the senate says what’s the big deal - by what mechanism does he then get replaced?  He commissions a report from the FBI or whomever saying that states X and Y has their results tampered with and should have gone Republican, he declares victory - then what?  The army marches up Pennsylvania Avenue and evicts him?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it goes to the Supreme Court, who give Trump a win on a party line vote. He dismisses Congress, declares martial law, installs a puppet Congress, declares himself president for life, and begins to jail his opposition in Soviet style trials. Gulags are built in Arizona, etc., under the rule of Joe Arpaio, who is appointed the Governer of the Southwest Security Zone (formerly Texas, New Mexico, AZ and SoCal, having reorganized the lower 48 states into 5 or more principle Security Zones under the ultimate direction of Stephen Miller). The Armed Forces back Trump.

PeterC said:
This could get a lot worse, quite easily.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 22nd, 2020 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
PeterC said:
It’s the circular firing squad back in action again.

Malcolm wrote:
Bernie somehow managed to stay out of the circle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 22nd, 2020 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Desert island book
Content:
DNS said:
Perhaps not originally or technically, but it could be considered a precursor of Mahayana as it is an accepted part and incorporated part of the Chinese Buddhist Canon.

Malcolm wrote:
The Ekottara Āgama cannot accepted as part of the Mahāyāna canon at all. It matters very little that it was included in the Chinese Canon. There are several śrāvaka sūtras in the Tibetan canon as well, but that does not make those sūtras a part of Mahāyāna. The reason why all four āgamas were not translated into Tibetan in their entirety is precisely because they do not form part of the Mahāyāna canon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 22nd, 2020 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Desert island book
Content:
DNS said:
Aṅguttara Nikāya (numbered discourses of the Pali Canon)
and
Ekottara Āgama (numbered discourses of the Chinese Agamas Tripitaka)

Queequeg said:
Interesting that you would take the Nikaya and the Agama of more or less the same text. Can you explain your reasoning on that?

DNS said:
One is Theravada, one is Mahayana. I'm non-sectarian and it's my favorite Nikaya / Agama.

Malcolm wrote:
Ekkotara Āgama is not a Mahāyāna text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 21st, 2020 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Why are there living beings?
Content:


SteRo said:
"the source of phenomena"? I've not come across that rendering and I don't find it helpful because of its potential 'thinginess' in the context of an alleged ultimate first cause/source being this or that. No support can be affirmed.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is how it is defined in classical buddhist literature, where, for example, Vasubandhu describes "dhātu", in the term dharmadhātu, as being like a mine.

Since in Mahāyāna, the dharmadhātu is a synonym for the emptiness of all phenomena, it can be likened to the source of all phenomena, as the Buddha does in several sūtras

Candrakīrti himself allows that emptiness can be considered a source. Nāgārajuna points out that empty things arise from things that are utterly empty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 21st, 2020 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharmakośabhaṣyaṃ and origin controversies
Content:
Aemilius said:
Yes, but somehow the tradition of the Four Great Buddhist Festivals did arise.

Malcolm wrote:
Good, glad we got that out of the way.



Aemilius said:
We agree that Northern and Central Indian Buddhism were governed by other schools than the Tamraparniyas, or srilankan elders, (for ex. Vasubandhu never uses the apellation "theravadin", they are known as "srilankan monks" for him).

Malcolm wrote:
Or Vibhajyavādin.

Aemilius said:
The festival of Buddha's descent from the Trayastrimsa heaven was known in China and Tibet. They certainly got it from the schools they were in contact with in India.

According to Etienne Lamotte the Vibhasa (a Sarvastivadin buddhist encyclopedia) laments that many sutras have been lost and little remains, the Ekottara Agama originally  went from 1 to 100, now we have only the sutras from 1 to 10. One of the disappeared sutras must be the one about the Buddha's visit to the Trayastrimsa heaven.

The tradition also tells that when the disciple of Ananda died, 9000 works of Abhidharma disappeared from the world with him. They were still held in memory at the time, and not yet written down. This is also from  Lamotte's History of Indian Buddhism.

All of this means that  Buddha's visit to Trayastrimsa remained as a story held in memory by some people, when it was no longer found in the sutras. It must have been an impressive tradition as the actual jewel ladders were still found at the time of King Ashoka, or a lower portion of the jewel ladders!

Malcolm wrote:
One can only imagine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 21st, 2020 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Burning Negative Karma
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I always find that using kerosine as an accelerant is good, cheap and easy to find.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 21st, 2020 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Why are there living beings?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
BTW, to answer the question, the Bonpos have an answer:
From the essence of the five separate elements
there was a whole, single, great egg.
High white mountains formed from the outer egg shell,
white oceans pooled from the inner egg white,
The sentient beings of the six classes
originated from the membrane of the egg in between.
The egg yolk formed eighteen eggs,
in the middle of those eighteen eggs,
there came one white egg.
The first four lines explain the outer universe.
The second five lines explain the origin of sentient beings in general,
the eighteen families of human beings,
and Tibetans (the white egg) specifically.

There you have it, this why there are sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 21st, 2020 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Why are there living beings?
Content:
SteRo said:
Understanding of the truth of reality of the Buddha's teachings refers to the path of seeing and above.
For a detailed explanation please be referred to Prajnaparamita sutras and commentaries.

Caoimhghín said:
Does this mean that, for you, the path of seeing is also "the truth (of reality)?"

SteRo said:
"The path of seeing" is a skillful means of the doctrine corresponding to deceptive experience.

Caoimhghín said:
It seems to be "seeing," rather than "what is seen," IMO. Trying to find/identify "what is seen" is a trickier business.

SteRo said:
Don't try to get at truth through sophisticated wordings. It's futile and the doctrine is already perfect.

Malcolm wrote:
Dharmadhātu is not a sophisticated word, in fact, you can find it in the Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra in 8000 lines, it just means, "the source of phenomena," such as this line: "Subhuti, signless, wishless, uncompounded, nonarising, unreal, or imperishable, totally imperishable dharmadhātu, Subhuti, that is the perfection of wisdom that the tathāgatas, arhat, samyaksambuddhas teach the world."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 21st, 2020 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Why are there living beings?
Content:


SteRo said:
There is nothing that does not conform to reality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 20th, 2020 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
tobes said:
It's brave person who makes any kind of election prediction these days.....

On Sanders: what do people say about his foreign policy/likely geopolitical influence?

Reestablish international norms/rule based-liberal order? Isolationist?

Malcolm wrote:
Realignment of security based on reinvigorating the Atlantic alliance, skepticism towards neoliberal trade deals. Stronger ties with the U.N.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 20th, 2020 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Paradoxical statements from the buddha himself?
Content:
DNS said:
I agree with JD. Not all paths take you to nirvana, full awakening. Some only go to the base camp; to reach the summit, you need Buddha-Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, to even find the right mountain, you need Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 20th, 2020 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But they don't need either -- they just need WI and PA, using the map as presented there. Basically, if we don't vote Trump out, we deserve him.

DNS said:
Oh, okay, I see you're using the default map from the site, not the one I created. They are saying VA and NH to the Dems and I don't know about that . . .  VA and NH typically vote GOP for POTUS.

HRC barely won VA and she had Kane from VA as her running mate.

Malcolm wrote:
VA is soundly in the Dem column now. HC won there by 5 points. It was very close in NH, where Bernie beat HC in the primary by a landslide. And trust me, I live next door to NH, Trump is not going to win there, too many people from MA live in the urban areas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 20th, 2020 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Kyabje Jigten Sumgon's protection wheel
Content:


Sennin said:
I know you're asking Cone, but I only asked if I could practice this by itself mainly because I don't practice five fold mahamudra. So probably if one is a Drikungpa it may not serve as a main practice cause there's complete practice cycles in that lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, did you forget about Uṣṇīscakravartin? That can be practiced as a standalone sadhana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 20th, 2020 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
based on the map as it stands, Dems only need to win FL. Alternately, Wis and PA without FL

DNS said:
I already have WI and PA in the Dems column.

Using my map as it stands, Dems would just need FL or NC and they could win.

And that's a huge uphill battle for Dems to win FL and/or NC.

Malcolm wrote:
But they don't need either -- they just need WI and PA, using the map as presented there. Basically, if we don't vote Trump out, we deserve him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 20th, 2020 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
DNS said:
This is pretty cool, an interactive map where you can predict who will win each state and thereby the most electoral votes.

https://www.270towin.com/

Here is my prediction right now, if it's Bernie. But I could be wrong. I got the 2016 election way off when I predicted Hillary would win.



And no, I'm not a Trump supporter, so this is not wishful thinking on my part.

Malcolm wrote:
based on the map as it stands, Dems only need to win FL. Alternately, Wis and PA without FL


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 20th, 2020 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
DNS said:
I know most of you here at DW like Bernie, but if it's Trump vs. Bernie; I could see Bernie winning the popular vote (West coast, Northeast, large urban areas) and Trump winning the electoral vote, which means Trump gets re-elected.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just FUD.

DNS said:
It could be. Or we might found out if Bernie wins the nomination. But if Bernie doesn't win the nomination, we'll never know for sure what would've happened. We'll also need to see who he picks as a running mate, as that could change things (if he gets the nomination).

Malcolm wrote:
This is just establishment Dem (read Republican lite) FUD because they are afraid their friends in insurance and big pharma will lose money. I means seriously, look at how much of a cut we allow middlemen in the American health care industry to take. And for what? Administration fees, and that's it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 19th, 2020 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Desert island book
Content:


SteRo said:
Maybe you want to apply specific tibetan conventions to the whole of Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I am sure he is referring to Vajrayāna material, which requires empowerment and transmission.

I can't answer in full because one of the two books I would bring requires transmission and empowerment. The other book is the Perfection of Wisdom in 8000 lines (the omitted title is Treasury of the Dharmadhātu and its autocommentary by Longchenpa).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 19th, 2020 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
DNS said:
I know most of you here at DW like Bernie, but if it's Trump vs. Bernie; I could see Bernie winning the popular vote (West coast, Northeast, large urban areas) and Trump winning the electoral vote, which means Trump gets re-elected.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just FUD.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 19th, 2020 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharmakośabhaṣyaṃ and origin controversies
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am not talking about Sankashya; I am talking about the fact that this tradition you describe of the Buddha teaching Abhidhamma in a heaven is not a sarvastivada tradition.

Aemilius said:
The Chinese pigrims Fa Xian and Hsuanzang have described the place of Sankashya, and it most certainly was outside of the theravada-land at that time:

"The Chinese pilgrims describe further stupas and a chankramana where Shakyamuni and the previous buddhas had walked and sat in meditation.
The three flights of stairs disappeared into the ground, but for seven steps of each, which remained above. When Ashoka came here later he had men dig into the earth around the protrusions in order to discover their depth. Although they reached the level of water, they could not find the stairs' end. With increased faith, Ashoka then built a temple over them with a standing image of the Buddha above the middle flight. Behind this temple he erected a great pillar surmounted by an elephant capital. Because the tail and trunk had been destroyed, both Chinese pilgrims mistook this for a lion.

"Hsuan Zang tells that the original stairs had existed until a few centuries before his visit, when they disappeared. Various kings built replicas of ornamented brick and stone, with a temple containing images of Shakyamuni, Brahma and Indra above them. These were within the walls of a monastery, which he describes as excellently ornamented and having many fine images. He further says that some hundreds of monks dwelt there and that the community had lay followers. Two centuries earlier Fa Hsien found roughly 1,000 monks and nuns living here pursuing their studies, some hinayana and some mahayana. Both pilgrims tell stories of a white-eared dragon who lived close to the monastery, caring for it and the surrounding area. Fa Hsien especially remarks on the abundant produce of the land and the prosperity and happiness of the people."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 19th, 2020 at 6:39 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Sanders surges to double-digit lead in new nationwide poll

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/18/bernie-sanders-frontrunner-nationwide-poll-115753


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 19th, 2020 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
DNS said:
However, Steyer is still polling very low in spite of massive spending on ads by him.

Malcolm wrote:
It has to be the tie.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 18th, 2020 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Trumpier and Trumpier...
Content:
Simon E. said:
I fear we will be  seeing much more of that Kim...

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know, I think Morrison is a much bigger clod than Bojo the Clown.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 18th, 2020 at 1:52 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
tobes said:
Well tkp67 - evidence is evidence, and that is more than I have to offer!

I wonder if it has something to do with competition. Some family have returned from NYC after a year working there, and their impressions of American culture is that deep competition permeates at every level. So maybe those nearer the top have become more adept at regarding others as competitors?

In my unfounded opinion, nothing is as destructive to compassion as the asura mentality....

Malcolm wrote:
Well, they saw NYC. NYC is not America.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 18th, 2020 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Coronavirus outbreak in China
Content:
smcj said:
20 million+. Enough to reverse global warming for a while.
Supposedly there was a famine in China under Mao that was 20 million. It didn’t even make a dent in their population problem.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, that was in the 1950's, the above was in 1500. 450 years makes a rather signiicant difference. The point is that because the plaque never hit the new world, the population was contributing to global warming through massive slash and burn farming in the Amazon, North America, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 18th, 2020 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Coronavirus outbreak in China
Content:


DharmaN00b said:
What if you have a cowpox/smallpox scenario? Look at what happened when Europeans settled in the new world? Huge percentage of native Americans decimated.


Malcolm wrote:
20 million+. Enough to reverse global warming for a while.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:


Nemo said:
This was a widely debated topic in Tibet as well IIRC.  One could argue that it's excess elitism was one of many causes of the fall of Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibet fell because they let the PRC build a road right into Lhasa.

Nemo said:
Often Dharma when you are young means a certain degree of poverty. There should be a balance. We live in countries where being a poor wanderer is literally a criminal act. How could a yogi live here without being beaten and harassed by police? Small allowances should be made for those with less social capital. Scholars don't do well without yogis for company and vice versa.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a Dharma practitioner, a real Dharma practitioner, things will always work out. We need socialism for ordinary people. But for Dharma people, Dharma provides everything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
tobes said:
If you or others have the wealth and time to practice Dharma and donate to Dharmic causes: this is something to rejoice in.

It's very hard to have the favourable conditions for practice: isn't that why there is danaparamita, mandala practices etc? Most of us need to accumulate more merit. Conversations about class need this context - we are talking about karma.

But in the same breath, if Dharma does not deeply undermine class consciousness - be it bourgeois or working class - then it is not being practiced right. And I suspect that often happens. In the west, and in everywhere it has been in the past. Privileged access by the aristocrats in Tibet??? Never!!

Simon E. said:
Yes, good points. Buddhadharma is inextricably linked to punya.
But we can never assume a lack of punya in others simply based on their external circumstances.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, by definition, the highest class of humans are the ones who have the precious human rebirth with 18 freedoms and endowments, and actually use it. Mundane issues like social class and so on, do not really apply here. The poorest Tibetan yogi is infinitely in a better position in samsara than some guy like Bills Gates, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharmakośabhaṣyaṃ and origin controversies
Content:
Aemilius said:
They have removed it from the explanations of LhababDuchen. In most places in the Internet it says "in Trayastrimsa Shakyamuni gave teachings to liberate his mother ". Neither does this deny that He taught her Abhidharma there.

In the explanations about Sankashya, the place where this event took place, it is still said that Buddha taught Abhidharma to his mother, for example in Buddhism Today http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/holyplaces/005-sankashya.htm

"Some say that during his forty-first year Shakyamuni went up from Shravasti to the Tushita Heaven and passed the rainy season retreat teaching Abhidharma to his mother, Queen Mayadevi, who had died seven days after Buddha's birth and been reborn as a male god in Tushita. The same happens to the mothers of all the buddhas, and they too later go to teach them, afterwards descending to Sankashya."

"Seven days before his descent the Buddha set aside his invisibility. Anuruddha perceived him by his divine sight and urged Maudgalyayana to go and greet him. The great disciple did so, telling the Buddha that the Order longed to see him. This was the time Prasenajit's statue was made. Shakyamuni replied that in seven days he would return to the world. A great assembly of the kings and people of the eight kingdoms gathered. As the Buddha descended, a flight of gold stairs appeared, down which he came. He was accompanied on the right by Brahma, who, holding a white chowny, descended on a crystal staircase, while to the left Indra came down a flight of silver stairs, holding a jewelled umbrella. A great host of gods followed."a

It is still there in the teachings of Lama Yeshe http://teachingsfromtibet.com/2018/08/08/sankashya-where-lord-buddha-descended-from-tushita-heaven/

Malcolm wrote:
“Some say” refers to Thervadins. This is not a Savastivada Tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: Learning the Dharma and the limits of Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is a physicalist view.

nichiren-123 said:
Spiritualism can't exist without Physicalism. It's temporary existence in the Tiantai threefold truth. Having said that, I guess the Tiantai middle way shows that you can't have Physicalism without spiritualism???

Malcolm wrote:
Beings in the interval between this life and the next have mental bodies will all organs complete.


nichiren-123 said:
If this is your view of consciousness, you have left the Dharma far behind.
Dharma is truth. Reality. That's what I'm looking for.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you won't find that in science. You are better off studying the Dharma systematically, and learning the distinction between the two truths. Then you will have a proper basis for understanding their inseparability. But there is no inherent reason why consciousness must depend on a material body.





nichiren-123 said:
For you, death is liberation.
If that were true I'd top myself right now. But I don't like that idea, lol.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

This is because you have the innate grasping to I, me, and mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
Mantrik said:
We have no inherent spiritual traditions left...

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you still have pubs...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
kusulu said:
The first thing to consider is whether convert Buddhism isn't in fact the act of appropriation.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is not the first thing to consider. Anyway, Dharma is for all sentient beings.

kusulu said:
Part and parcel of that, is convert Buddhism the same, or similar, or even patterned after native Buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
There is not such thing as "convert Buddhism." There is Dharma, people are free to practice or not, as they choose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Learning the Dharma and the limits of Buddhism
Content:


nichiren-123 said:
Isn't the brain a cause and condition for consciousness? Isn't a living body a condition for consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
Not according to Buddhadharma.



nichiren-123 said:
I know you could presuppose formless beings having no consciousness but think about it: aren't we human beings conscious because of energy? Our consciousness is an electromagnetic field supported by the physical substratum structure of our brains. That's not conjecture, it's science.
My point is that even a 'formless being' need's some sort of substratum to maintain its consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
That is an awfully big inference. But no, consciousness is not the electromagnetic field of our brain. If it were, all electromagnetic fields would exhibit volition and self-determination. Further, it would be possible to create intelligence, if consciousness were merely a matter of emergent physical properties.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Learning the Dharma and the limits of Buddhism
Content:
nichiren-123 said:
Even when the aggregates break up at death, because of the innate grasping to self, the mind immediately appropriates a new series of aggregates.
Can you explain that in more depth?

Malcolm wrote:
Your mind appropriates your aggregates as I, me, and mine, right now. What makes you think it will cease doing so after you have died and this life's aggregates have broken up?



nichiren-123 said:
There is a beginning to consiousness. It's a dependently originating phenomena which only arises when conditions are correct. It does have a beginning which is sometime before birth. It has a beginning in the same way any other phenomena does. You can't tell me that an ocean whirlpool does not have a beginning...

Malcolm wrote:
There is no beginning to a give person's consciousness, since the series is conditioned, it cannot have an absolute beginning. Phenomena do not have real "beginnings." They only seem to from the perspective of our observation. But you cannot find a first cause for any given phenomena at all.



nichiren-123 said:
Our consciousnesses are distinct because we apprehend them as a self and what belongs to a self.

I've heard that before but never understood so could you explain that to me?
My current point of view is that our consciousness is separate because it's an internal process (occurring in a brain), that it needs the brain (as one condition) to manifest consciousness. No brain. No consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is a physicalist view. If this is your view of consciousness, you have left the Dharma far behind. For you, death is liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 2:36 AM
Title: Re: Learning the Dharma and the limits of Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One's consciousness is a momentary, serial entity, that is, it arises and perishes every instant, supported on its causes and conditions. Hence, it is not permanent, not a self, and continues forever until there are no longer causes and conditions which support its arising.

nichiren-123 said:
Not sure if we are starting to get confused as to each other's meaning so I'm going to express my argument in a different way:

At what point do you separate 'your' consciousness. (both momentary existence as well as the continuous 'stream') from everything else?

You can't cut yourself up apart from anything and claim "This is not going to disperse".

Malcolm wrote:
Since there is never a time when we did not have the innate grasping of our continuum as a self, it has always been distinct, since there is no beginning of consciousness or anything else. The logic of dependent origination forbids any sort of first cause or prime mover-- all causes are effects, and all effects are causes in their turn. Our consciousnesses are distinct because we apprehend them as a self and what belongs to a self. But the more practical point is this-- my karma is my karma and ripens on me alone, even after I attain realization and until buddhahood is attained. One cannot speak of what happens to a buddha's mind after the breakup of their aggregates, since this is one of the 14 questions to which the Buddha refused to respond. When I taste a lemon, there is no taste of sour in your mouth. This is because our psycho-physical continuums are distinct, with distinct physical and mental sense organs, etc. Even when the aggregates break up at death, because of the innate grasping to self, the mind immediately appropriates a new series of aggregates. This is why the aggregates are referred to in Sanskrit as upādāna-skandhas, addictive aggregates—we appropriate them because we are addicted to the three afflictions, driven by the obscuration of knowledge that is the innate grasping to I, me, and mine. Even tenth stage bodhisattvas, while they are not subject to birth in the three realms, still have the knowledge obscuration, the most subtle grasping to "I, me, mine."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 2:15 AM
Title: Re: Learning the Dharma and the limits of Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is questionable, for example, formless realm beings have no material aggregate. They posses consciousness, life force, and a very limited number of mental factors, since they only have one conceptual object for the duration fo their existence.

nichiren-123 said:
The existence of formless realms is contentious but I'm not going to argue it.
What I will say is even if they have one less aggregate, they are still vulnerable to dissolution as any other being is - in fact, it's inevitable as long as the law of impermanence holds.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, formless realm beings take birth in lower realms, when they have exhausted the merit which allowed them birth in the formless realms.

Well, consciousness is not an ocean, and we are not waves. Our conscious continuums are unique and individual. This is why my karma does not ripen on you, and vice versa. One's continuum does not disperse, as you claim, but it continues on since it has its own unique causes and conditions which cause it to continue. We alone are the heirs of the karma we created, and no one else.
Your idea of a continuum which never dissolves sounds to me like it contradicts non-self.
It doesn't contradict the idea of absence of self since our mental continuum dependently originates based on its own unique set of causes and conditions.

Also saying it has it's own unique causes and conditions seems to ignore interconnectedness. Our continuum (even though it's internalised) must interact with the outside and be affected by it.
Everything that arises, arises based on its own unique set of causes and conditions.

My main doubt is how something like a conscious continuum can retain it's 'flavour' or survive when everything else changes and dies?
One's consciousness is a momentary, serial entity, that is, it arises and perishes every instant, supported on its causes and conditions. Hence, it is not permanent, not a self, and continues forever until there are no longer causes and conditions which support its arising.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Learning the Dharma and the limits of Buddhism
Content:



nichiren-123 said:
First off We are made of the 5 aggregates. We need all of them to have an experience. Take anything away and you no longer have a conscious being.

Malcolm wrote:
This is questionable, for example, formless realm beings have no material aggregate. They posses consciousness, life force, and a very limited number of mental factors, since they only have one conceptual object for the duration fo their existence.

nichiren-123 said:
Yes, we are interconnected and constantly evolving. The 'me' now is not the same 'me' from any other instance in time - neither past or future. but there is still a continuum. When it all breaks down for me is at death. Once you die then the continuum of 'you' completely disperses into the external world. Our live's are like waves in the ocean. Each wave needs the entirety of the rest of the ocean to manifest itself and in some sense IS the entire ocean from the relative point of view of that wave. but when conditions change enough then the wave disperses; it recedes back into the mass and that (particular) wave will never come back.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, consciousness is not an ocean, and we are not waves. Our conscious continuums are unique and individual. This is why my karma does not ripen on you, and vice versa. One's continuum does not disperse, as you claim, but it continues on since it has its own unique causes and conditions which cause it to continue. We alone are the heirs of the karma we created, and no one else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 17th, 2020 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Learning the Dharma and the limits of Buddhism
Content:


nichiren-123 said:
Arguably, the doctrine of rebirth is one example of error.

Malcolm wrote:
Discard that and you have actually discarded the beating heart of the Dharma. Better to be a secular humanist than call yourself a Dharma practitioner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 16th, 2020 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:


Könchok Thrinley said:
Do you think there is a class problem in convert buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
No, not at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 16th, 2020 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Buddhism's class "problem"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
To practice the Dharma one needs the 18 freedom and endowments. There is little more to be said on the issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 16th, 2020 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: both hindu and buddist at the same time
Content:
dolphin_color said:
Even if incense is used in any tradition, it's not the incense that cultivates any qualities in us.

Malcolm wrote:
When connected with a method, it is exactly the incense that cultivates qualities in us. Example, sang offerings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 16th, 2020 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Trump/Pence versus ???
Content:
tingdzin said:
I have said elsewhere that I would vote for anyone the Dems put up, but I will NOT vote for a billionaire East Coaster who thinks he can buy his way into the office.

justsit said:
Shades of 2016. Some (many?) disgruntled Bernie supporters refused to vote for Clinton.

Malcolm wrote:
Not that many. Main issue with 2016 election was voter turnout, out of 230,931,921 eligible voters, only 61.4 percent turned out to vote, which means that 38.6 percent of eligible voters stayed home. This means that 89,139,721 people did not show up at the polls to cast their vote, roughly four out of ten people. This is a much bigger problem than disaffected Bernie voters who may have voted for for Stein or Trump.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 16th, 2020 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Chinese room thought experiment and supervenience
Content:
Queequeg said:
The AI is


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 16th, 2020 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
DNS said:
Nevada caucus coming up next Saturday. Bernie leading in the polls.

https://www.270towin.com/2020-democratic-nomination/nevada-caucus

It's the first diverse state to vote. Nearly half of Nevada is a minority of some type. More than half in Las Vegas.

Malcolm wrote:
Bernie is projected to win S. Carolina too. And on super Tuesday, the only primary Biden is expected to win is Alabama. Sanders takes the rest.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-primary-forecast/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 15th, 2020 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
tobes said:
'm surprised I haven't heard more on this front, but there must be a lot of pissed off (former?) Republicans around.

tingdzin said:
You would think so. Maybe they have convinced themselves that, bad as he is, Trump is still better than the Far Left. Maybe they think that once he is gone, they can reclaim the moral high ground (a pretty dubious proposition-- once democratic institutions are compromised, it's pretty hard to get them back to a reasonable state). Maybe formerly ethical Republicans have decided that it's all about money after all, and "after me, the deluge".

Malcolm wrote:
George Conway, anyone?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 15th, 2020 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Trump/Pence versus ???
Content:
tingdzin said:
I have said elsewhere that I would vote for anyone the Dems put up, but I will NOT vote for a billionaire East Coaster who thinks he can buy his way into the office.

Malcolm wrote:
Even if it means another four years of Trump?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 15th, 2020 at 10:14 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
“The Republican Party is now a reliable opponent of equality and a malignant force in American life — a cancer within a patient in denial about the nature and severity of her condition,” wrote the New Republic’s Osita Nwanevu. “It should be not only defeated but destroyed — vanquished from the American political scene with a finality that can only be assured not by electoral politics or structural reforms alone, but by a moral crusade.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/02/14/trumps-authoritarian-style-is-remaking-america/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 15th, 2020 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Unknown said:
Bitecofer, a 42-year-old professor at Christopher Newport University in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia, was little known in the extremely online, extremely male-dominated world of political forecasting until November 2018. That’s when she nailed almost to the number the nature and size of the Democrats’ win in the House, even as other forecasters went wobbly in the race’s final days. Not only that, but she put out her forecast back in July, and then stuck by it while polling shifted throughout the summer and fall.

And today her model tells her the Democrats are a near lock for the presidency in 2020, and are likely to gain House seats and have a decent shot at retaking the Senate. If she’s right, we are now in a post-economy, post-incumbency, post record-while-in-office era of politics. Her analysis, as Bitecofer puts it with characteristic immodesty, amounts to nothing less than “flipping giant paradigms of electoral theory upside down.”

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/02/06/rachel-bitecofer-profile-election-forecasting-new-theory-108944


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 15th, 2020 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The academic curriculum of Modern Tibetan Buddhism is based on Mulasarvāstivādin Vinaya, Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma, Perfection of Wisdom Sūtras, Madhyamaka, and some study of Yogacāra.

Caoimhghín said:
In some select sectarianisms, accusations are levelled that the Tibetan tradition pays more attention to Venerable Guṇaprabha's Vinayasūtra than the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya. What is your experience?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they do in fact.

Caoimhghín said:
Guṇaprabha’s root text, the Vinayasūtra...is based on the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya, and includes many references to the specifics of the Prātimokṣa, Sūtravibhaṅga, Karmavācanā, and Skandhaka from that system.

Malcolm wrote:
Read more: http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/jiats/#!jiats=/05/nietupski/b5/#ixzz6Dxg86UBa


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 15th, 2020 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Anders said:
Following this line of thought would make all modern Mahayana Buddhism effectively reducible to Mulasarvastivada in Tibet...

Malcolm wrote:
All Mahāyānīs in Tibet are Mulasarvāstivādins. For example, I am a Mulasarvāstivādin upāsaka, and in terms of bodhisattva vow ordination, Madhyamaka, which is also the philosophical tradition I follow. Point of fact, there never were separate traditions of Mahāyāna practice in terms of Madhyamaka and Yogacāra, the path is the same for both.

Anders said:
Are you seriously saying there is no meaningful difference between sakya, gelug and nyingma and that "mulasarvastivada" is a more meaningful descriptor of them as a tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
For the most part, there is no meaningful difference between bulk of teachings of Tibetan Buddhist schools. They are all Mulasarvāstivādin from the point of view of ordination; from the point of view of path, they are all Mahāyāna; and they all claim to be Prasanga Madhyamaka in intellectual orientation—though Karma Kagyu and Jonang might considered outliers, they still claim they adhere to Madhyamaka.

The principle difference between Tibetan schools is what Vajrayāna traditions they adhere too. But even this is misleading, since Sakya, Kagyu and Jonang, largely base their teachings on the late Nalanda tradition and the Vajrayāna practitioners who associated with this university, such as Naropa, Ratnakarashanti, etc. While Nyingmapas follow earlier Vajrayāna traditions, they too are based on Nalanda Buddhism. Geluk is based principally on the Sakya and the (now defunct) Kadampa schools.

Thus, in terms of the  vast majority of teachings, the four or five schools of Tibetan Buddhism are much more similar than they are different.

The academic curriculum of Modern Tibetan Buddhism is based on Mulasarvāstivādin Vinaya, Sarvāstivāda Abhidharma, Perfection of Wisdom Sūtras, Madhyamaka, and some study of Yogacāra. However, the dominant influence in Tibetan Buddhism is Nāgārjuna, and anything that does not comport with Nāgārjuna is considered wrong or inferior view.

In short, trying to tell a Tibetan Buddhist they do not belong to the Madhyamaka school is like trying to tell Chan and Zen Buddhists they do not follow Bodhidharma. You are not going to get very far with that claim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 15th, 2020 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: How To Deal with Homeless People?
Content:
hkvanx said:
I still feel bothered every day when I see homeless people - the dharma teaches compassion towards other but I feel overwhelmed by the scale of the problem.  Any advice?

Malcolm wrote:
Kindness and compassion. Even of you cannot do anything for them materially, you can still feel kindness and compassion for them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 15th, 2020 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Pete Buttigieg
Content:
DNS said:
Meanwhile Pete Buttigieg, I mean Lieutenant Buttiegieg, served in Afghanistan.

Malcolm wrote:
Why is this good? Moreover, he only served for 7 months, in a rear echelon posting. That photo is a glamour shot. He is not suited up with combat gear, he is just posing with a gun.

DNS said:
I was responding to Limbaugh's claim that he is not "man" enough. And Trump claims to be a macho-man, military guy, pro-military, even though he never served in the military.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, VD was his personal Vietnam...I bet he lost...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 14th, 2020 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: Coronavirus outbreak in China
Content:


Nemo said:
If you guys are right this will be over in March. I hope you are.

Malcolm wrote:
All evidence suggests this will last into the next year, at least.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 14th, 2020 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Pete Buttigieg
Content:
DNS said:
Meanwhile Pete Buttigieg, I mean Lieutenant Buttiegieg, served in Afghanistan.

Malcolm wrote:
Why is this good? Moreover, he only served for 7 months, in a rear echelon posting. That photo is a glamour shot. He is not suited up with combat gear, he is just posing with a gun.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 14th, 2020 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Anders said:
Following this line of thought would make all modern Mahayana Buddhism effectively reducible to Mulasarvastivada in Tibet...

Malcolm wrote:
All Mahāyānīs in Tibet are Mulasarvāstivādins. For example, I am a Mulasarvāstivādin upāsaka, and in terms of bodhisattva vow ordination, Madhyamaka, which is also the philosophical tradition I follow. Point of fact, there never were separate traditions of Mahāyāna practice in terms of Madhyamaka and Yogacāra, the path is the same for both.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 14th, 2020 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
conebeckham said:
I do think it's true, though, that all Tibetan lineages consider Madhyamaka to be the "apex" view, and therefore it's right to characterize all Tibetan lineages as belonging to this "school of thought."   But there's no Madhyamaka institution per se, as there was in Japan during ancient times.  I don't know if there was such a "school" in the institutional sense in India, either, frankly.

Anders said:
My point is that the fact that all these lineages only really take the madhyamikan view of emptiness as apex and ignore/relegate the rest of its practice-tradition is exactly why I don't think they can accurately be called madhyamika, as much as descended/evolved from madhyamika. Madhyamika is/was not just philosophy. To reduce a school only to its view of emptiness is not a proper representation, imo.

Malcolm wrote:
That is also false. We do practice according to Aryadevas 400 and Shantidevas Bodhicarya-avatara, as well as Nagarjunas texts, and many more.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 14th, 2020 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
smcj said:
Vajrayāna Buddhism came much later...
Oh no you didn’t...


Malcolm wrote:
Sure, this is non-controversial even from a traditional point of view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 14th, 2020 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Anders said:
But it's not something I'd associate with schools that employ tenets like ekayana, tathagatagarbha, buddhahood in one lifetime and such.

Malcolm wrote:
Tathāgatagarbha sūtras existed during the time Nagārjuna was alive, and he never refuted them. Ekayāna sūtras also existed while he was alive, and he never refuted them either. In fact, he defended Mahāyāna as a whole.

Vajrayāna Buddhism came much later, but there is no contradiction between Madhyamaka and Vajrayāna, since all the tantras take Madhyamaka as their view.

So, you are a taking excessively narrow view of who can lay claim to the title, a madhyāmika. I am a madhyāmika.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 14th, 2020 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


tobes said:
You assert that nirvana with remainder is an entirely separate topic to nirvana without remainder - but nonetheless, we are still dealing with the nature of cessation in both cases.

Malcolm wrote:
Nirvana with remainder is the cessation of afflictions that cause rebirth in samsara. That's it. It is not necessary to have all the qualities you mention above. It is not even necessary be liberated through the dhyānas, like the Buddha.

What is cessation? You assert: it is like the shoot of a burnt out seed.

tobes said:
If you can talk about burnt seeds, I can talk about about the extinguished namaskandhas of an arhat. It is simply a counter argument  to highlight that the cessation of X does not imply the non-existence of Y. It only implies the non-existence of X.

Malcolm wrote:
The cessation of the aggregates mean they no longer arise, and nothing further may be said about that person:
Upasīva:
One who has reached the end:
Does he not exist,
or is he for eternity
free from dis-ease?
Please, sage, declare this to me
as this phenomenon has been known by you.

The Buddha:
One who has reached the end
has no criterion
by which anyone would say that—
for him it doesn’t exist.
When all phenomena are done away with,
all means of speaking
are done away with as well.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/StNp/StNp5_6.html#stnp_note5.6.04


tobes said:
In any case, it's clear that I'm now involved in a Mahayana-Hinayana argument.


Malcolm wrote:
Not with me. I was merely pointing out that my perspective is not Hinayāna; while presenting evidence the Sautrāntikas (the higher tenet system) regard nirvana to be unreal, in contrast with the Sarvāstivādins (the lower tenet system), who assert it is real, and further, clarifying why it is that Mahāyāna regards the śrāvaka cessation to be an extreme, because it represents an aspiration for total cessation, doing away with all dharmas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Abhidharmakośabhaṣyaṃ and origin controversies
Content:
Aemilius said:
One of the four great Buddhist festivals in area of Tibetan culture is the Lhabab-duchen, which is a celebration of Shakyamuni's descent from the Trayastrimsa heaven after he had taught the Abhidharma there.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no connection between Lha bab dus chen and Abhidharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 12:46 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


smcj said:
That’s an important point to remember, especially since the way it is discussed can sound very similar. Apples and oranges.
(Agreeing with Malcolm again.)

Malcolm wrote:
It is also important to remember that Mahayana adds a fourth unconditioned dharma: emptiness free from extremes.

Caoimhghín said:
Why do some Mahāyānikas feel the need to add that? How is that unconditioned any different from nirvāṇa, which is already an unconditioned?

Malcolm wrote:
Nirvana is a cessation, so it’s an extreme. Also, Aryadeva shows that nirvana is relative, like space, etc. Only emptiness free from extremes is ultimate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 12:40 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
smcj said:
From a Mahayana point of view, nonarising and unceasing have a completely different meaning than they do from a Hinayana point of view.
That’s an important point to remember, especially since the way it is discussed can sound very similar. Apples and oranges.
(Agreeing with Malcolm again.)

Malcolm wrote:
It is also important to remember that Mahayana adds a fourth unconditioned dharma: emptiness free from extremes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 12:26 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
tobes said:
These statements are leaving you all with very absurd consequences.

Let's take for a moment nirvana with remainder. What remains? The rupaskandha (until death). What has ceased? The namaskandhas, and the afflictions which depend upon them.

By the logic of Malcom, Smcj, Virgo etc, when one attains nirvana with remainder - such as the Buddha did upon his awakening - there are no siddhis, there is no wisdom, there is no enlightened speech, no enlightened qualities at all. Only an afflicted body....and the complete none-existence of anything like 'awakened mind' 'prajna' 'karuna' 'maitri' etc. In this case, the Buddha would be nothing other than a 'dead/non-existent' mind and an existent, afflicted body. Truly absurd.

One does not fall into eternalism to assert that nirvana is a realisation which has very subtle but indescribable qualities. However, one does fall into nihilism when one asserts that the extinction of kleshas is the extinction of everything.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm....no. Your rebuttal is way, way, off the mark. First of all, your objection confuses the position concerning the cessation that the highest tenet system of Hinayana holds, vs. our own personal understandings of these issues in a Mahayana context.

Second my remarks never addressed nirvana with remainder, but were strictly confined to what nirvana without remainder meant, and I referenced a Sutta in the Sutta Nipata which directly addresses the issue of what one may say about an arhat whose aggregates have broken up—nothing at all is the answer—and why.

The issue of what Buddhas and arhats experience while they are alive, according to shravakas,  is an entirely separate topic.

From a Mahayana point of view, nonarising and unceasing have a completely different meaning than they do from a Hinayana point of view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 10:04 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
At the same time, you said Malcolm can't say "cessation," because it "reifies a process," but you can say "peace" and have it not reify the process of "war" or more metaphorically "non-peace."

Malcolm wrote:
Also, cessation is not a process, since it is an absence of causes and conditions. Cessations are not caused.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 10:02 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:



tobes said:
So you're talking about the nature of cessation itself; but this reifies a process, because cessation cannot be thought of independently from something which abides. i.e it is the end of that thing abiding.

What is the end of klesha? It ceases. It doesn't follow that there now can't be a mind without that klesha. That is a mere metaphysical claim. Maybe its right, maybe its wrong.

So your point only applies to the cessation itself, and by extension to the abiding things (skandhas etc) which have ceased. It says nothing about the process of a yogi moving through the jhanas and into the final attainment.

Malcolm wrote:
When the series of aggregates driven by afflictions ceases because the afflictions are uprooted and there is no more birth in the three realms (because there is no more birth), this is the extreme of cessation referred to when in Mahayana we refer to samsara and nirvana as extremes. We don’t accept this as the goal of the path, but it is fruitless to deny that this is very much the desired goal of shravakas.

tobes said:
What is extreme about it is that it one is able to dwell outside of samsara...

Malcolm wrote:
Since the aggregates have ceased, there is no dwelling, either inside or outside samsara.


tobes said:
how do you respond to this consistent equivocation of nirvana with unconditioned peace? ANd also, for that matter, with the synonym 'deathlessness.'

Malcolm wrote:
When there is no birth, there is no death. When there is no existence, there is peace. That cessation of existence is unconditioned, because the three kinds unconditioned dharmas recognized by the shravakas to be nonexistent by nature, for example, space. Otherwise, the consequence is that non-analytical cessations also persist somehow, like the shoot of a burnt seed.


tobes said:
But we're talking about what sharvakas themselves take to be the fruit.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and in my opinion, you have an eternalist view of nirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 7:07 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
IDK, I mean, two of the Tibetan schools tend to in a practical sense de-emphasize philosophy as a part of their identity. Whether this is actually true in practice is another question entirely of course, but I can't see a Kagyupa or Nyingmapa saying that they represent the "Madhayamaka school", can you, have you?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course, all Tibetan Buddhist schools claim to be proponents of Prasangika Madhyamaka, including Kagyu and Nyingma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Anders said:
I would call that overstating the case then. Heritage does not equal identity.
None of those schools would be recognisable to an Indian madhyamikan as madhyamika. They may embrace its view of emptiness, but their practices, view of the path, additional framework and so forth all distinguish them from madhyamika as it existed as an actual school.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course they would be. But if you wish to be closed-minded, that is your prerogative.

I don't need your permission to consider myself and my tradition to be living exponents of the Madhyamaka school. Considering that the largest single body of Madhyamaka literature was composed by Tibetans, I would say it is a pretty fair bet that Tibetan Buddhists are Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: mahayana sutra
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
What canon is this sūtra from? Is it normally in Chinese or Tibetan?

Malcolm wrote:
It is part of the Ratnakuta collection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Andrew Yang is running for President. Who?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Right now the Clinton Wing of the Dems are freaking out and can't get behind one candidate.

Queequeg said:
That's because the two that have the momentum now, Klobuchar and Buttigieg, lack the it factor.

I guarantee, the more people hear and see Buttigieg, the more they'll find they don't like him. Nobody likes the Hall Monitor Teacher's Pet, and given his stature and appearance, its just a matter of time before that connection is made and pounded. Trump would have a field day calling him Alfred E. Newman and then making a point of standing next to him. It would be Mike Dukakis in a ridiculous helmet all over again.

Dan74 said:
Interesting and sounds very plausible to me. But Buttigieg as a VP would have much less limelight, so Alfred E. Newman as a VP is not so bad maybe? I mean Tweedledee, aka Dan Quayle, was a VP, or is that too kind?

Malcolm wrote:
Buttigieg does not believe in Sanders mission: which is to fundamentally restructure the US Government and our economy. This is why Bloomberg is running, because he knows that Sanders can also beat Trump, but is afraid of the consequences of a Sanders presidency: Democracy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Liberation through six senses
Content:
bhava said:
Profound explanation of Tulku Rinpoche Pema Wangyal
Seems that tagdrol is a terma of his father Kyabje Kangyur Rinpoche


Malcolm wrote:
No, not at all. All six liberations come from the 17 tantras, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Andrew Yang is running for President. Who?
Content:



Dan74 said:
I second that, but he wouldn't bring Sanders many votes at all. Not a strategic choice, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is better than voting in another republican (Bloomberg). I am sure Sanders has a running mate in mind. He is quite savvy. Right now the Clinton Wing of the Dems are freaking out and can't get behind one candidate.

Dan74 said:
I would put my money on Gabbard over Yang, as Sanders' running mate. Or maybe he'll reconcile with Warren, no?

Malcolm wrote:
Gabbard is a closeted Republican. Warren is out, done, toast. I have no idea who Sanders would be looking at for a VP pick.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Andrew Yang is running for President. Who?
Content:
Queequeg said:
That would be f'in awesome.

Dan74 said:
I second that, but he wouldn't bring Sanders many votes at all. Not a strategic choice, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is better than voting in another republican (Bloomberg). I am sure Sanders has a running mate in mind. He is quite savvy. Right now the Clinton Wing of the Dems are freaking out and can't get behind one candidate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Question about mind state
Content:
Rick said:
I couldn't find anything on bying ba but thina-middha sounds about right, particularly the part about closing the doors to consciousness.

Easy fix: If I stay attentive through the gap by counting, the gap-nap problem disappears.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is one purpose of mindfulness of breathing. Another method is to turn down the heat, take off clothes, eat a lighter diet, be in a brighter room, lift one's gaze, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Ah, makes sense.

Malcolm wrote:
The yogacāra bodhisattva lineage also survives in Tibet, as it was introduced by Atisha, nominally a Madhyamaka, but partial to the more detailed conduct entailed by the yogacāra lineage vows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I assume he meant lineages of bodhisattva vows, one of one is attributed to Ven Nāgārjuna (my guess?), but I am curious too.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, partly, but gzhan stong pas also distance themselves from the mind-only school, even if they consider the mind-only position to be mistaken reinterpret key yogacāra texts from a Madhyamaka perspective.

So in point of fact, the Madhyamaka school is alive and well in Tibet, and I am a partisan of that school.

Caoimhghín said:
I had no clue that the lineages of bodhisattva vows could be indicative of Rangtong-Shentong divisions. Can you elaborate?

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not what I meant; what I meant was that gzhan stong pas also consider themselves Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Question about mind state
Content:
LastLegend said:
Does it matter if you clearly know!?

Rick said:
I can feel myself slipping into the blankness and coming out of it ... but during the blankness I don't know-experience pretty much anything. It's like being lost in thought or sensation, but without the thought/sensation part.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is called torpor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Self doesn’t produce mind.
The illusory “self” arises from mind. Deluded mind.
Extinction is the extinction of the illusory self. Not a complete elimination of awareness.
If buddhahood were not possible until
Some kind of total extinction of mind occurred,
We wouldn’t know about it
Because buddha wouldn’t have been able to teach it.

smcj said:
"Cessation with remainder" refers to an Arhat's experience while still alive. He gets to walk, talk, and even chew gum. "Cessation without remainder" is what is being hotly discussed here.

On a related subject, I'm of the impression that Sakyamuni did not teach the Path he took to Buddhahood. In the Jataka Tales he is referred to as a bodhisattva. That's not the Path he taught. But that's just a general impression, not a researched opinion.

Malcolm wrote:
The Bodhisattva, in the lower schools, is considered a common person until his final birth, where he attains buddhahood. It is a very different concept fo the bodhisattva path than that laid out by Mahāyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I assume he meant lineages of bodhisattva vows, one of one is attributed to Ven Nāgārjuna (my guess?), but I am curious too.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, partly, but gzhan stong pas also distance themselves from the mind-only school, even if they consider the mind-only position to be mistaken reinterpret key yogacāra texts from a Madhyamaka perspective.

So in point of fact, the Madhyamaka school is alive and well in Tibet, and I am a partisan of that school.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Anders said:
They were schools, but as living traditions go they are essentially extinct.

Malcolm wrote:
I object to this claim. I belong to the Madhyamaka School, and it is very much a living and vital tradition, which has its own tradition of ordination and so on.

Anders said:
Can you expand on this? A Madhyamika school as distinct from Dzogchen, Sakhya, and so forth?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally speaking, All schools in Tibet claim to belong to the Madhyamaka school, whether we are talking about Nyingma, Kagyu, Geluk, or Sakya.  Everyone accepts Nāgārjuna as the authoritative voice on the correct view of the Buddha. To say Madhyamaka is an extinct school is a disservice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
DNS said:
Deval Patrick dropped out today.

To which 99% of Americans responded, "was he in the race?"

Malcolm wrote:
Never a serious contender.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Question about mind state
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Maybe not the same thing as bying ba (sleepiness, drowsiness, torpor) more detail should be provided.

If you are fully alert, this is a pretty good state of mind for practicing meditation. In a teaching on Mahamudra, on the practice  of just resting the mind in its natural state, without any effort, it was suggested that when one is feeling exhausted from physical activity, like running, and the mind isn’t “looking” for anything, that this is a good time to do that.
What you describe sounds familiar.

Malcolm wrote:
"rather a semi-unconsciousness" = torpor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
smcj said:
We don’t accept this as the goal of the path, but it is fruitless to deny that this is very much the desired goal of shravakas.
Admittedly the idea to aspire to your own extinction is a tough nut to crack.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, if you still have an innate view of self, yes; but this is abandoned on the hinayāna path of seeing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Warren is done. Time for her votes to go to Sanders. She has no path forward.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Question about mind state
Content:
Rick said:
At times I fall into a mind state I'd call blank. It's not monkey mind: There are no conscious thoughts swirling around, no emotions, no perceptions (beyond default low-level sensory phenomena). Think: Robot that powers down into a dormant state, not fully turned off, minimally conscious.

These blank states are short-lived, sometimes in response to stress, sometimes to tiredness, sometimes neither ... they just seem to come. They're not worrisome, I've had them since forever, but I'd like to understand them better, from a Buddhist and neurophysiological standpoint.

Is there a Buddhist term/teaching for this blank state of mind? Maybe something referencing zombies?

Malcolm wrote:
This is called bying ba, lethargy or torpor, literally sinking. This is a big flaw in your meditation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 13th, 2020 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Andrew Yang is running for President. Who?
Content:
Queequeg said:
It was a good run. Excited to see what he does next.

Malcolm wrote:
He should join the Sanders campaign; he said this morning he is open to being a VP.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 11:05 PM
Title: Abhidharmakośabhaṣyaṃ and origin controversies
Content:



Aemilius said:
Vasubandhu writes in Abhidharmakosa-bhasyam page 58 about the origin of Abhidharma (and the views of different schools on it):
"However, the Vaibhashikas explain, the Blessed One spoke Abhidharma in fragments. And in the same as Sthavira Dharmatrata made a collection of Udanas scattered throughout the scriptures, -the Udanavarga (the larger original Dharmapada)-, in this same way the Aryan Katyayaniputra and the other Saints established the Abhidharma (by collecting it into seven Abhidharmas)."

Malcolm wrote:
However, Vasubandhu is merely reporting an opinion that he does not accept, which is clarified by Valle-Poussin in footnote 16, pg. 133: "The word kila shows that Vasubandhu presents here an opinion...that he does not accept. The Abhidharma treatises are not the word of the Master for the Sautrāntikas and for Vasubandhu."

Aemilius said:
I don't buy that. Before the quoted passage from Bhashyam, Vasubandhu explains even more strongly why Abhidharma was taught by the Bhagavan, his reasoning goes: "To attain enlightenment it is necessary to know the Abhidharma, the Bhagavan Shakyamuni gave his disciples the Doctrine that leads to perfect enlightenment. Therefore he taught the Abhidharma."
If this is merely the view of the Sarvastivadins, he explains it very clearly, and he also omits mentioning the opposing views.

Poussin writes on page 17 that Sarvastivadins accept the seven Abhidharma treatises as word of the Buddha. On pages 18...20 Poussin explains in detail the argument in Vibhasha how Abhidharma is the word of the Buddha.
I think that Abhidharma carries the spiritual authority of the Buddha, as the Vaibhashikas say.

Why should we discard the very nice miracle of Shakyamuni, when he descended on three kinds of stairs from the Trayastrimsa  heaven accompanied by Brahma and Indra, after having taught Abhidharma for his mother (who was reborn there as a deity).

Malcolm wrote:
1) It is very clear the Sautrāntikas do not accept the Abhidharma treatises of the Sarvāstivādins to be word of the Buddha. If they did, there would be no basis for dispute.  This does not however prevent them from accepting that the Buddha taught a subject called "abhidharma," scattered throughout the Agamas.

2) The Sarvāstivādins are forced, in the Mahāvibhāṣā, to reconcile the composition of the treatises of Abhidharma by arhats, with the claim that they are also the word of the Buddha. On pg. 19, the Vibhāṣā is quoted, "If this is the case, why does the tradition attribute the writing down of this treatise [the Jñānaprasthāna] to the Āryan Kātyāniputra?" After claiming that the this treatises was indeed the word of the Buddha, the respondent also admits that according to another opinion, the Jñānaprasthāna is just the work of the Āryan Kātyāniputra. Thus, our Vaibhāṣika author attempts to conclude that while the Abhidharma is the word of the Buddha, it is also the work of Āryan Kātyāniputra.

But if we accept this to be case, this is very problematical, because of the number of places in the treatise where Vasubandhu refutes theories which, according to your view, would be theories originally enunciated by the Buddha, thus leaving open the claim that Vasubandhu was rejecting the Dharma.

Further, on pg. 36, Poussin lays out the position of the Sautrāntikas in eleven points of difference, the first of which is the rejection of the authority of the Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma.

The notion that the Buddha taught Abdhidharma to the devas in the desire realm is a Pali tradition connected with the Abhidhamma Pitika, and has no corresponding analogue in Indian Buddhism.

Now, generally speaking, the Sautrāntikas are held to be the higher tenet system, and therefor, in Mahāyāna we also do not accept the authority of the Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma. Further, Mahāyāna has its own Abhidharma, in the form of the now lost Abhidharma Sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:



tobes said:
Are you saying: the skandhas et al never exist in the first instance, therefore, the cessation of the skandhas cannot be asserted to be a non-existence? i.e. something that was existent becoming non-existent.

If that's the case, sure. Conventionally though, there are still 4NT's, and duhkah stops, and genuine unconditioned peace begins.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I am saying that a cessation is necessarily a nonarising, for example, the shoot of a burnt seed.

tobes said:
So you're talking about the nature of cessation itself; but this reifies a process, because cessation cannot be thought of independently from something which abides. i.e it is the end of that thing abiding.

What is the end of klesha? It ceases. It doesn't follow that there now can't be a mind without that klesha. That is a mere metaphysical claim. Maybe its right, maybe its wrong.

So your point only applies to the cessation itself, and by extension to the abiding things (skandhas etc) which have ceased. It says nothing about the process of a yogi moving through the jhanas and into the final attainment.

Malcolm wrote:
When the series of aggregates driven by afflictions ceases because the afflictions are uprooted and there is no more birth in the three realms (because there is no more birth), this is the extreme of cessation referred to when in Mahayana we refer to samsara and nirvana as extremes. We don’t accept this as the goal of the path, but it is fruitless to deny that this is very much the desired goal of shravakas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 12:15 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #1
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The alternative is that most Americans don’t much care who runs things or why. New Zealand is looking increasingly attractive.

PeterC said:
It's not so easy to emigrate there these days. The skills-based route is challenging, and they've all but closed the door on investor immigration.  The changes happened about a decade ago due to a spike in immigration from a large Asian country. They don't want too many people in their lifeboat.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s a metaphor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 12:11 PM
Title: Re: Are madhyamaka and yogacara considered schools of buddhism?
Content:
Anders said:
They were schools, but as living traditions go they are essentially extinct.

Malcolm wrote:
I object to this claim. I belong to the Madhyamaka School, and it is very much a living and vital tradition, which has its own tradition of ordination and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 11:59 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:



tobes said:
There has been no dispute at all, from my side, about the proposition that Shravaka cessation = absolute cessation of the aggregates.

What has been in dispute is that this implies/entails a state of nothingness, extinction, annihilation. Unreality does not imply those things, as you concede. So I'm happy we agree on this point.

As far as Peter Harvey goes, this also seems like a stretch to me, but I would need to see how he is using the term consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
There isn’t any annihilation, because a cessation necessarily entails that no ceased entity’s nonexistence can be properly described. It’s a contradiction in terms to speak of the nonexistence of something which never existed at all, since it never arose. For example the shoot of a burnt seed.

tobes said:
Are you saying: the skandhas et al never exist in the first instance, therefore, the cessation of the skandhas cannot be asserted to be a non-existence? i.e. something that was existent becoming non-existent.

If that's the case, sure. Conventionally though, there are still 4NT's, and duhkah stops, and genuine unconditioned peace begins.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I am saying that a cessation is necessarily a nonarising, for example, the shoot of a burnt seed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 11:52 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #1
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The alternative is that most Americans don’t much care who runs things or why. New Zealand is looking increasingly attractive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 10:54 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


tobes said:
What's in dispute: the claim that there is literally nothing at all from that point; total annihilation, nothingness, non-existence. i.e. you go beyond the 4 jhanas into absolute death.

Malcolm wrote:
Not annihilation, absolute cessation of the continuum of the aggregates. What else could it be, if there is nothing else apart from the aggregates upon which an a self is imputed.

Peter Harvey, in Selfless Persons, argues that an unconditioned consciousness continues, but he is not a classical shravaka, and does not cite classical shravakas sources which confirm his ideas. He bases his argument, as far as I recall, On some very elusive passages in the Pali suttas. But the sautrantikas still argue that nirvana is unreal, whether you like it or not. Not only this, but everyone who has ever written a book on the subject of the four tenet systems in India and Tibet also confirms this fact.

tobes said:
There has been no dispute at all, from my side, about the proposition that Shravaka cessation = absolute cessation of the aggregates.

What has been in dispute is that this implies/entails a state of nothingness, extinction, annihilation. Unreality does not imply those things, as you concede. So I'm happy we agree on this point.

As far as Peter Harvey goes, this also seems like a stretch to me, but I would need to see how he is using the term consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
There isn’t any annihilation, because a cessation necessarily entails that no ceased entity’s nonexistence can be properly described. It’s a contradiction in terms to speak of the nonexistence of something which never existed at all, since it never arose. For example the shoot of a burnt seed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 10:00 AM
Title: Re: Victims of Communism
Content:
Nemo said:
The last 25 years of China's "economic miracle" has been the strongest period of economic growth in the history of capitalism. Does that mean communists are the best capitalists Nicholas?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 6:39 AM
Title: Re: Victims of Communism
Content:


Könchok Thrinley said:
While I am all for remembering victims of murderous regimes, I don't think that an American has more right to point at others and ignore his own problems than anybody else.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course not. After all, when we complain to China about their treatment of Tibetans and so on, they just point to our treatment of African slaves and Native peoples. After all, when we consider the slave trade over all, something like 2 million slaves died just being transported to the New World.

The official UN estimate is that 17 million people died in the slave trade. Given that the population of Africa seems to have declined slightly btween 1600 and 1800, while the population of Europe and Asia doubled in the same period, some people estimate that perhaps as many as 60 million Africans were killed in the slave trade during this period. Such was the fruit of capitalism until then.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
smcj said:
...you will instead receive Mahayāna pratimokṣa vows.
Can you give an example so we know what you’re talking about?

Malcolm wrote:
You don't know what Mahāyāna pratimokṣa vows are? They are any pratimokṣa vows taken with Mahāyāna intent. There are two ways to receive them; they are regular śrāvaka vows transformed by one's receipt of the bodhisattva vows; or they are taken in the style of Mahāyāna fast day vows, in an empowerment, or in a Madhyamaka lineage bodhisattva vow ceremony (the Yogacāra bodhisattva vow ceremony requires śrāvaka pratimokṣa vows be taken before hand, the Madhyamaka bodhisattva vow ceremony does not have this requirement).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Punya said:
Not my understanding of what Dudjom Rinpoche is saying https://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Conduct-Ascertaining-Three-Vows/dp/0861710835


Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of pratimokṣa vows: śrāvaka and Mahāyāna. One need not take the former to take the latter.

For example, supposing you have never before taken refuge and you go to an empowerment from an upāsaka guru such as HH Sakya Trichen. During the empowerment you will receive pratimokṣa vows (as well as bodhisattva vows and vajrayāna samayas of all four classes of tantra), but not śrāvaka pratimokṣa vows, you will instead receive Mahayāna pratimokṣa vows. One can only receive śrāvaka pratimokṣa vows from a bhikṣu, and never an upāsaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


smcj said:
The Mahayana references the Shravakayana as foundational.

Malcolm wrote:
No.

Mahāyāna vows and practice do not require srāvaka vows and practice as a precursor. Among the three vows, Mahāyāna has its own pratimokṣa, so there is no prima facie need to take srāvaka pratimokṣa beforehand.

Mahāyāna is a independent vehicle, and does not require śravakayāna as a foundation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:



Nicholas Weeks said:
Ye gods and little fishes!  Malcolm's Mind of minds has done it!  I see the Socialist Sun ablaze with Truth, Goodness & the American Way!

I am converted (or maybe perverted) [could be diverted] {probably subverted}

conebeckham said:
Nicholas, the hyperbole doesn't play well.  Also, it dodges the question.  How can you support Trump, and yet subscribe to Kirk's opinions?

Johnny Dangerous said:
It's also pretty thin ice in terms of the ToS, so I'd suggest Nicholas that you reel it on in.

In fact, everyone should probably step back a bit before continuing.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s a sad thing to see some who is nominally a Buddhist gorge themselves on trumps hate and lies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 12th, 2020 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
The Kirk Center has begun a new section of curated articles by Russell Kirk.

https://kirkcenter.org/kirk-essays/?mc_cid=1eb8902e64&mc_eid=abc4e15946


Malcolm wrote:
And just how is this statement not a complete indictment of your president, who revels in naked power, and has broken even the finest threads of moral and intellectual principles?

Nicholas Weeks said:
Ye gods and little fishes!  Malcolm's Mind of minds has done it!  I see the Socialist Sun ablaze with Truth, Goodness & the American Way!

I am converted (or maybe perverted) [could be diverted] {probably subverted}

Malcolm wrote:
So basically, as long as someone bearing name “Republican” does it, you don’t care. Apparently this president has cut all ties you once had to the claim that you are a “principled” conservative. You are just a parrot. Better stick to parroting  Nagarjuna”s vibhasa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
The Kirk Center has begun a new section of curated articles by Russell Kirk.

https://kirkcenter.org/kirk-essays/?mc_cid=1eb8902e64&mc_eid=abc4e15946
When the garment of civilization is worn out, we are confronted by the ugly spectacle of naked power...
Not by force of arms are civilizations held together, but by the subtle threads of moral and intellectual principle.

Malcolm wrote:
And just how is this statement not a complete indictment of your president, who revels in naked power, and has broken even the finest threads of moral and intellectual principles?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Trump just doomed his campaign.
Content:
PeterC said:
The re-election strategy is pretty simple: things like this budget only matter if facts and reality matter.  So make them not matter.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-2020-disinformation-war/605530/

Malcolm wrote:
Well, we will see how susceptible to Geobbelian propaganda techniques anyone outside of Trump's base is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


tobes said:
What's in dispute: the claim that there is literally nothing at all from that point; total annihilation, nothingness, non-existence. i.e. you go beyond the 4 jhanas into absolute death.

Malcolm wrote:
Not annihilation, absolute cessation of the continuum of the aggregates. What else could it be, if there is nothing else apart from the aggregates upon which an a self is imputed.

Peter Harvey, in Selfless Persons, argues that an unconditioned consciousness continues, but he is not a classical shravaka, and does not cite classical shravakas sources which confirm his ideas. He bases his argument, as far as I recall, On some very elusive passages in the Pali suttas. But the sautrantikas still argue that nirvana is unreal, whether you like it or not. Not only this, but everyone who has ever written a book on the subject of the four tenet systems in India and Tibet also confirms this fact.
Correction, Selfless Mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
tobes said:
Happy to have a look at this when I have time.

In the meantime, I'll note that when I have asked for evidence for which Sravakas themselves assert that they are aiming for total extinction, you provide a Sarvastivadan-Abdhidharmika critique of the Sautantrikas - who themselves reject the Abhidharma....

If that's the best we have, then so be it. At least you've put something on the table....

Malcolm wrote:
Even the Sarvastivada acknowledge that that their seven treatises of Abhidharma were not directly taught by the Buddha. And the sautrantikas base their critiques in sutra, rejecting abhidharma metaphysics where they contradict sutra, which is why, in the scheme of the four tenet systems, the latter are considered higher than the former. This is apropos, because you invoked sutra in defense of your claim that shravakas do not seek a kind of total cessation.

Aemilius said:
Vasubandhu writes in Abhidharmakosa-bhasyam page 58 about the origin of Abhidharma (and the views of different schools on it):
"However, the Vaibhashikas explain, the Blessed One spoke Abhidharma in fragments. And in the same as Sthavira Dharmatrata made a collection of Udanas scattered throughout the scriptures, -the Udanavarga (the larger original Dharmapada)-, in this same way the Aryan Katyayaniputra and the other Saints established the Abhidharma (by collecting it into seven Abhidharmas)."

Malcolm wrote:
However, Vasubandhu is merely reporting an opinion that he does not accept, which is clarified by Valle-Poussin in footnote 16, pg. 133: "The word kila shows that Vasubandhu presents here an opinion...that he does not accept. The Abhidharma treatises are not the word of the Master for the Sautrāntikas and for Vasubandhu."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: Trump just doomed his campaign.
Content:
Wayfarer said:
He knows the budget is DOA.  He's just trolling.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is he has given the Democrats major ammunition. Only a pompous ass roles out a budget with trillion dollar cuts to health care during an election cycle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


tobes said:
What's in dispute: the claim that there is literally nothing at all from that point; total annihilation, nothingness, non-existence. i.e. you go beyond the 4 jhanas into absolute death.

Malcolm wrote:
Not annihilation, absolute cessation of the continuum of the aggregates. What else could it be, if there is nothing else apart from the aggregates upon which an a self is imputed.

Peter Harvey, in Selfless Persons, argues that an unconditioned consciousness continues, but he is not a classical shravaka, and does not cite classical shravakas sources which confirm his ideas. He bases his argument, as far as I recall, On some very elusive passages in the Pali suttas. But the sautrantikas still argue that nirvana is unreal, whether you like it or not. Not only this, but everyone who has ever written a book on the subject of the four tenet systems in India and Tibet also confirms this fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
tobes said:
Happy to have a look at this when I have time.

In the meantime, I'll note that when I have asked for evidence for which Sravakas themselves assert that they are aiming for total extinction, you provide a Sarvastivadan-Abdhidharmika critique of the Sautantrikas - who themselves reject the Abhidharma....

If that's the best we have, then so be it. At least you've put something on the table....

Malcolm wrote:
Even the Sarvastivada acknowledge that that their seven treatises of Abhidharma were not directly taught by the Buddha. And the sautrantikas base their critiques in sutra, rejecting abhidharma metaphysics where they contradict sutra, which is why, in the scheme of the four tenet systems, the latter are considered higher than the former. This is apropos, because you invoked sutra in defense of your claim that shravakas do not seek a kind of total cessation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 10:14 AM
Title: Trump just doomed his campaign.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
1 trillion dollars in cuts to healthcare in new budget...,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 8:23 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
tobes said:
In which there is also the non-existence of unchanging peace, bliss etc?

I suspect not.

Otherwise, may as well be a Charvaka and at least enjoy some wine.....

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, supposing you have Pruden's translation of the Abhidharmakośabhāṣyaṃ, the discussion in the Indriya chapter where the Sarvāstivādins refute the Sautrantika claim that nirvana is nonexistent, like the other two uncompounded phenomena, from vol. 1, pp. 280—286, beginning, "The Sautrantikas affirm the three types of unconditioned phenomena are not real. This is prefaced by an argument about what is means to to say that uncompounded entities have neither causes nor results, on pg. 278.

tobes said:
This is why I am skeptical about this point: once we're in the sphere of one school criticising another school in the form of highly abstract reasoning, we have firmly left the gate of practical/meditative orientations, of which nirvana is the most subtle, elusive and impossible to describe.

I deeply suspect that if there were practicing Sautrantikas around to speak for themselves, none of them would assert that they are aiming for total extinction.

In any case, if we remain purely with the statement, it does not follow that they are asserting that the non-causality and unreality of nirvana is equivocal to the teleological aim of pure extinction. Given that they are suspicious of the Abhidharma and attempting to ground their practice in sutta, it seems far more likely to me that they are making much of the Buddha's silences and refusals on core metaphysical topics/questions. And this opens up a space for what nirvana may be, beyond philosophy and words, rather than shutting it down into some absolutist position.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you really need to not be lazy and read the passage, where they quote passages from Samyukta agama in support of their position that nirvana is unreal and a nonexistent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 5:12 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, apparent objects do not exist merely because we conceive them; for example, your car does not disappear when you walk into your house. It is still there in the morning when you want to drive to work.

Astus said:
What matters is the subjective experience, as that is where all the defilements and sufferings occur.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is false, since external phenomena are also afflicted or conducive to generating affliction, and they also are suffering, for example, the third kind of suffering, the suffering of the compounded, which has nothing to do with sensation or experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Trump/Pence versus ???
Content:



Queequeg said:
Policy wise, not my preferred ticket, but that might be the most competent combo possible.

I'll show up to the voting station with my Bernie shirt on to vote, and vote often.

Malcolm wrote:
Sanders/Yang.

Queequeg said:
Yang Gang? These are my two favorite candidates for different reasons... What's your take on Yang?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I am a Berner, but I think Yang would make a good vice president for Bernie.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Victims of Communism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
He can't; but on the other hand, the CCP seem to have figured out they can be capitalists without democracy.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Correct, but it is the members of the CCP who get most of the material benefits.  Of course that has always been true of the many Red classless societies, Party members get the best - not the rest.

Malcolm wrote:
Not exactly true, Nicholas. What is true is that the CCP will let anyone make money, but they cannot challenge the party. That's the deal. Economic freedom in exchange for political slavery.

And umm, the idea that there are no classes inm Chinese society under the CCP, might have been an operative ideology until 1980, but that has long gone by.

I've been to China twice, and the last time I was there, I spent a fair amount of time, in an "English" class I was asked to teach to the med students at Tibetan Hospital where I did an internship, lecturing them on the principles of representative Democracy and free markets, as well as the importance of their preserving their Buddhist identity and Tibetan culture.

There must have been no "red-hearted Tibetans" in the class, because the CCP gave us flying colors in terms of not being political while we were there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Victims of Communism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Watch the video - the victim calls (4:05) his nation Communist.  I think he would know best.

Johnny Dangerous said:
That's a absurd assumption, because he's suffered he now understands the intricacies of political systems?

No one in their right mind considers China of today economically "communist" in any real sense - including plenty of scholars who are largely anti-communist.

There are grave issues with the authoritarian side of Communism and the regimes it's inspired, this is  unmistakable, but this sort of "look at them scary Red Chinese" stuff belongs in the Red Scare era and is really tiresome.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Ho hum - academic abstractions.  Name me a Communist nation that is (or was) not run by controlling totalitarians.

Malcolm wrote:
He can't; but on the other hand, the CCP seem to have figured out they can be capitalists without democracy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: Trump/Pence versus ???
Content:



Nicholas Weeks said:
Any second choice?

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone blue. Hell, I'd even vote for Mitt Romney at this point.

Nicholas Weeks said:
If he has any genuine conscience, he would flip to the Dem party.  So you may get that chance.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, since the GOP has abandoned any shred of a pretense to being a conservative party under your Dear Leader, he just might.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Trump/Pence versus ???
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Sanders/Yang.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Any second choice?

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone blue. Hell, I'd even vote for Mitt Romney at this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Trump/Pence versus ???
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
My prediction is the Dems will choose Bloomberg/Klobuchar and they will lose because many Bernie-ites will not vote for them.

Queequeg said:
Policy wise, not my preferred ticket, but that might be the most competent combo possible.

I'll show up to the voting station with my Bernie shirt on to vote, and vote often.

Malcolm wrote:
Sanders/Yang.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Victims of Communism
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
There are grave issues with the authoritarian side of Communism and the regimes it's inspired, this is  unmistakable, but this sort of "look at them scary Red Chinese" stuff belongs in the Red Scare era and is really tiresome.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, red scare tactics are in vogue again amongst Republicans.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Victims of Communism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Hong Kong is not totally ruled by the Chinese Communist Party - yet.  But Communist control is a situation to be avoided, as this speaker points out.


Malcolm wrote:
Any totalitarian state is to be avoided, whether "left" or "right."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Of course appearances are mind, but not apparent objects.

Astus said:
If by apparent objects you mean when one conceives things in terms of perceiver and perceived, then there is no disagreement.

Malcolm wrote:
No, apparent objects do not exist merely because we conceive them; for example, your car does not disappear when you walk into your house. It is still there in the morning when you want to drive to work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka view distillation
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
MMK is not complex.

Rick said:
I'm really glad to hear that!

Slogging through the MMK can be hard for people like me who have zero formal background in philosophy or reasoning. (As you can tell by my postings here!) Without commentary I have to rely on intuition, which is a pretty ineffective tool for such a counterintuitive text. And with commentary I have to puzzle through the interpretation of the commentator: Is it right (afaict), accurate, does it make sense, do I even understand it properly?

Malcolm wrote:
If you want to understand Madhyamaka, a gounding in Abdhidharma is a little necessary. If you wan to understand emptiness, the heart sutra is sufficient.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 11th, 2020 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What is the difference between this and yogacāra?

Astus said:
Not much really, I just didn't want to complicate things with that, instead keeping it to the "appearances are mind" theme from Mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course appearances are mind, but not apparent objects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
No, Karmapa 8 rejected gzhan stong. The Karma Kagyu tradition really only went all in with gzhan stong when Kathog Tshewang Rigzin ordered Situ Panchen to adopt gzhan stong view in order to extend the life of the latter.

smcj said:
Eh, I think I’ll stick with Brunnhölzl on this one. It’s his turf after all.

Sorry I can’t give a page number from his “When Clouds Part” to support my post.  I gave my copy away to a 3 year retreat graduate (western ‘lama’) that was teaching on Buddha Nature. I thought she should understand the subject better. Hopefully she’s reading it.

Malcolm wrote:
The truth of the matter is that there has not been an official position established by the College of Kagyu Cardinals at a theological convention. Anyone in any school is free to accept any variant of Madhyamaka they prefer. The fact that people decide to follow an "canonical" opinion is merely indicative that they are playing team sports and cannot be considered a serious scholar.

Karl B., is a serious scholar, but he is also playing team sports, since even he admits that the way gzhan stong pas use Yyogacāra material is not consistent with the way the founders (Maitrya, Asanga, Vasybandhu) of yogacāra use it. There is a place for both, but most of Buddhists are not serious scholars, and only play team sports for the views promulgated as official in their school. This is why I personally abandoned paying too much mind to what Tibetans had to say about madhyamaka, and exclusively rely on what can be discerned in the authentic treatises of the founders of these two systems, madhyamaka and yogacāra, and free of the largely Tibetan historical interpretation of Buddhist doctrine through the lens of the three turnings, a lens entirely neglected by Indian masters.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 11:33 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You seem to be using “experience” in place of “direct perception”.

Astus said:
The point of using the word https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=518930#p518930 was to signify the fundamental frame where everything appears without separation to subject and object, thus putting away the concept of a knower mind and known entity and replacing them with a single unit that already has awareness and appearance inseparably.

Malcolm wrote:
What is the difference between this and yogacāra?

This won't work with Dzogchen by the way, where a hard distinction is made between snang ba (appearances), subjective experience, and snang yul, objective appearance (apparent objects). The former are understood to be coterminous with the mind and indistinguishable from it; the latter are understood to be different from the mind, and distinguishable from it. This issue is discussed at length by Longchenpa in his autocommentary to chapter eight of the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka view distillation
Content:
Rick said:
Thanks all around for the responses.

To quote Albert:

“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.”

You have the radical simplicity of the Lotus Sermon and the radical complexity of the Mulamadhyamakakarika. Where is that sweet spot, as simple as possible but no simpler?

Malcolm wrote:
MMK is not complex. It is very simple, actually. It's arguments turn on just one or two argument structures, which show the negative consequences of asserting the nondependent existence of dharmas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka view distillation
Content:
Rick said:
All phenomena are empty.

Astus said:
The first difficulty comes from understanding "all", what that all actually signifies. Then one can attempt to define what is a phenomenon.

Malcolm wrote:
"All" refers to the dharmas included in one aggregate, the material aggregate; one āyatana, the mano-āyatana; and one dhātu, the dharmadhātu. This scheme includes all compounded and uncompounded dharmas (the three uncompounded dharmas are included in the dharmadhātu, as well as the mental factors).

A dharma is that which bears a characteristic, when we are speaking about "phenomena."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
tobes said:
In which there is also the non-existence of unchanging peace, bliss etc?

I suspect not.

Otherwise, may as well be a Charvaka and at least enjoy some wine.....

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, supposing you have Pruden's translation of the Abhidharmakośabhāṣyaṃ, the discussion in the Indriya chapter where the Sarvāstivādins refute the Sautrantika claim that nirvana is nonexistent, like the other two uncompounded phenomena, from vol. 1, pp. 280—286, beginning, "The Sautrantikas affirm the three types of unconditioned phenomena are not real. This is prefaced by an argument about what is means to to say that uncompounded entities have neither causes nor results, on pg. 278.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
tobes said:
In which there is also the non-existence of unchanging peace, bliss etc?

I suspect not.

Otherwise, may as well be a Charvaka and at least enjoy some wine.....

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, it has to do with how peace, bliss and so forth are are interpreted.  I’ll dig up the koshabhasyam reference for you later.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
smcj said:
This is in the Kagyu forum. The Karma Kagyu has been a Shentong school since Karmapa III. So you’re preaching to the choir about seeing things in positive terms.

It’s also a common Karma Kagyu teaching that Arhats are mistaken about Nibbana. The extinction they believe as being Nibbana is really a slumber that they must wake up from in order to practice the Mahayana.

tobes said:
Sure. The point relevant to the Kagyu is that like nirvana, 'ordinary mind' is unproduced, a-causal, a-temporal, neither existent nor non-existent, colourless, shapeless, formless and, returning to the OP, not anywhere in particular.....but 'everything arises from it.'

So maybe the answer to the OP is: everywhere. Rather than: nowhere because it doesn't exist.

Malcolm wrote:
Ordinary mind, tha mal guys shes pa, is a yogi’s term for ye shes. But your assertion is uncertain. If what you say is true, then there can be no means by which this uncaused wisdom can be realized, since it is uncaused, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
smcj said:
This is in the Kagyu forum. The Karma Kagyu has been a Shentong school since Karmapa III. So you’re preaching to the choir about seeing things in positive terms.

It’s also a common Karma Kagyu teaching that Arhats are mistaken about Nibbana. The extinction they believe as being Nibbana is really a slumber that they must wake up from in order to practice the Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
No, Karmapa 8 rejected gzhan stong. The Karma Kagyu tradition really only went all in with gzhan stong when Kathog Tshewang Rigzin ordered Situ Panchen to adopt gzhan stong view in order to extend the life of the latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
according your reasoning, experiences are also merely inferred, since they are not directly perceived.

Astus said:
Experience is what appears presently, while interpreting, categorising, processing, and other cognitive workings have as their object various levels of abstractions (starting with direct connection), but even those fabrications are experiences themselves.

Malcolm wrote:
You seem to be using “experience” in place of “direct perception”. But this is an error, experiences are second order cognitions. For example, the meditative signs such as smoke and so on, are called experiences because you interpret such experiences as products of equipoise, unlike the experience of seeing smoke on a hill. For example, a taste of sweet is not an experience of sweet until it is categorized as such. Example, if you first place a bit of an herb called gymnena on your tongue, it blocks the sense receptors for tasting sweet, so even you place sugar on the tongue, you will not experience a sweet taste.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 10:40 AM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka view distillation
Content:
Rick said:
What, if anything, is lost by distilling the Madhyamaka view down to:

All phenomena are empty, none exist inherently, all arise interdependently.

Or even simply:

All phenomena are empty.

We are told that the view is difficult, complex, intellectually challenging, not for the faint of cognitive heart. But is it actually?

Malcolm wrote:
All phenomena are empty. Some of those phenomena are unconditioned, including Buddhadharmas. They are all
Illusory, a magical net.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
Misty said:
"The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness."

Are the teachings on the alaya used as an illustration to help us see, recognize and understand how we relate to things/objects when our consciousness is influenced by the knowledge obscuration?  if so, What is the cognizing consciousness of this process called?

Malcolm wrote:
In the system of yogacāra, there are seven cognizing consciousnesses: the five physical sense consciousnesses; mental consciousness; and afflicted consciousness, which apprehends phenomena as "I or mine." The ālayavijñāna is simply a repository for the traces created by the other consciousnesses and has no actual cognitive function, and cannot be perceived by sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:


haha said:
If someone (for a yogi) has learned to enter into the trance state and does not have knowledge, he or she is more likely to enter into the alaya. For common people experience, it is the dreamless sleep. Nirvikalpa samadhi is also included in it.

Malcolm wrote:
You didn’t answer the question.

haha said:
It can be distinguish by wisdom (pranja) or knowledge (jnana).

Malcolm wrote:
Not by an ordinary sentient being, only by a buddha. Why? Because the ālayavijñāna is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness.

Ālaya is actually just a name for ignorance, in the system of Dzogchen. And this is made extremely clear in all the commentaries that bear on the issue.

But perhaps what you mean to refer to is the ālaya, aka the nature of the mind, which is the inseparable clarity and emptiness taught in the Kagyu and Sakyapa schools. If this is the case, while clarity of course can be recognized, this is not the ālaya being spoken of in Dzogchen teachings, which is the subject of this discussion.

In this case, the ālaya and the dharmakāya can only be differentiated or distinguished by a person who attains complete and total buddhahood in this life, at the time they attain complete and total buddhahood. This is discussed somewhat extensively by Vimalamitra in his commentary on the Blazing Lamp Tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 10th, 2020 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Trump is now Big Brother right out of 1984.
Content:
Dan74 said:
I agree.

The issue I took with the OP was the emphasis on surveillance as if it was something Trump is especially at fault for.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you misunderstood the point. The point was using data to target undocumented people for arrest. That data is generally legally collected, and it’s initial usage was to target ads to cell phones.

It’s always been legal to use cellphone location data in prosecutions, of course, but this is an abuse of that data.

PeterC said:
That’s not quite correct.

In most cases, sale of individual GPS data collected by telcos from tower pings to private resellers is probably completely illegal. I say probably because the FCC has stonewalled on having hearings on this, and it’s very hard to find a case that someone like the ACLU could bring to trial, because you need individualized damage (and to know that your data was sold in the first place).  But we know that telcos continue to sell this data, because people like bounty hunters seem to be able to buy it quite readily.

Malcolm wrote:
If it has not been tested in the courts, it is de facto legal.


PeterC said:
...The battle has already been lost.

Malcolm wrote:
The battle was lost when the first databases started collecting data on people back in the 70's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 8:33 PM
Title: Re: Trump is now Big Brother right out of 1984.
Content:
Dan74 said:
I agree.

The issue I took with the OP was the emphasis on surveillance as if it was something Trump is especially at fault for.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you misunderstood the point. The point was using data to target undocumented people for arrest. That data is generally legally collected, and it’s initial usage was to target ads to cell phones.

It’s always been legal to use cellphone location data in prosecutions, of course, but this is an abuse of that data.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: About a nihilistic adrift of Buddhadharma
Content:
Taikor.Taikun said:
Can we say it actually meant non-self; not no self. No self is largely interpreted as no soul while non-self is being selfless in nature without attachment.

Some people argued that anatta mean no soul. This concept belied the other concept of samsara. And the Buddha encouraged us to be reborn in Sukhavati. The souls in different realms and world depending on its state of being. We can be in union with the universe but we cannot say there is no soul

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, we definitely can say there is no “soul.” We can can also say there is no sentient being, no creature, no person, no living being, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 8:23 PM
Title: Re: Trump is now Big Brother right out of 1984.
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
The collection of the raw data is also a problem, I mean, the actual collection and archiving of it by companies is a problem in the first place, but that'd veer into the whole surveillance capitalism end of the discussion.

They are different problems related to the same issue. Obama era NSA surveillance for instance was not targeting any group, Trump is. The biggest issue with the NSA surveillance was in fact that it was so indiscriminate. So both can be, are, and were problems, they are in no way, shape or form mutually exclusive. Most groups that specialize in law and issue surrounding such things (FTFF, EFF, EPIC, ACLU and others) would indeed echo the idea that both dragnet surveillance and targetting of specifics groups is an issue, which is exactly why a lot of this stuff should simply be illegal for anyone to do, and we should accept that the only way to maintain some sense of human dignity in the midst of these surveillance capabilities is to allow (for instance) encryption which the government cannot easily break, and to make it a serious crime for governments or corporations to toy with people in this way. It's related to executive power also, which was mentioned earlier.

Obviously, Trumps use is related to his desire to further disenfranchise some of the most vulnerable people on the hemisphere, which makes it ugly in a particular way, but it's -all- a problem, not an either or situation.

Malcolm wrote:
We already have encryption which is virtually impossible to break. But it places a serious burden on bandwidth, and so therefore people don’t like to use it. It is also clumsy, and most people feel that it isn’t worth it because they feel they’ve nothing to hide. Encryption is covered under munition laws.

The reason why the NSA Hoover data is that there are no laws against it. As I said, all of this data is public, and anyone can collect it. Want to change that, you’ll have to change the laws, but good luck, because it will be immediately challenged under the first amendment, because ironically, passing such laws will also make it illegal for reporters to report on open mic comments.

Btw, Snowden did not report anything we already didn’t know. He is a libertarian nut driven by an intense hatred of Obama. Let him rot in Russia, he is not a hero.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 8:14 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #1
Content:
tingdzin said:
At the risk of sounding too cynical, I wonder if a lot of financial support is going to Buttiegieg from rich (hidden) Republicans who know that if push comes to shove, a lot of borderline voters will not vote for a gay man. My own doubts about him stem from his very limited experience, although his military service counts for a lot.

I'll vote for whomever the Dems eventually choose. Trump on an even longer rope than he's on now is too much to contemplate.

I would like to know why all the mainstream Dems always get weeded out before Iowa. Biden would like to call himself mainstream, but he's too old, very possibly crooked, and voted for the Iraq war.

Malcolm wrote:
It is because mainstream democrats are out of touch with mainstream America. And now, trump is running on a new red scare.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Soul vs Consciousness?
Content:
tingdzin said:
"Soul" is a mental construct, the very vagueness of which has ensured its continuance. Although the modern-day Catholics may or may not define it as consciousness, this was assuredly not the case 1000 years ago. Nor is the present understanding of the word an easy match, semantically or from a historical viewpoint, with the Greek and Latin words it was supposedly derived from and equivalent to. Cross-cultural comparisons of words that have vague meanings and wildly different histories is probably a mug's game unless one wants to get very very specific about defining terms.

The Tibetan word "la" (bla) is often translated as "soul", and, nowadays, Bonpos sometimes substitute namshe for it, but it was sufficiently different in meaning 1200 years ago for the creators of Tibetan/Sankrit translation equivalences refused to admit "la" (in the old meaning) to their lexicon at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and citing your reasoning above, soul a bad translation of bla, especially under its old meaning. In modern parlance among Buddhists, it’s usually held to a be a synonym of “tshe”, longevity. And, prebuddhist usages are evident still in certain kinds of “archaic” rituals which are practiced to summon a wandering bla.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 8:01 PM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:


haha said:
That is fine.
The point is whether they are distinguishable or not. Yes, they are.

Malcolm wrote:
The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness. How then do you suppose it can be distinguished?

haha said:
If someone (for a yogi) has learned to enter into the trance state and does not have knowledge, he or she is more likely to enter into the alaya. For common people experience, it is the dreamless sleep. Nirvikalpa samadhi is also included in it.

Malcolm wrote:
You didn’t answer the question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 7:58 PM
Title: Re: Soul vs Consciousness?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, because even the subtle consciousness, the mind of clear light in Geluk jargon, is relative and compounded.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Ahh! That makes sense.
Thanks

tobes said:
If the mind of clear light neither arises nor ceases, and is not comprised of parts, then how can it be compounded?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s momentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 7:57 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Hindus have always accused Buddhism of nihilism, even though Buddhist assert that śūnyatā=/=nothingness.  Here's a journal article which spells out this accusation in detail - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IdGeppDKiPkI-fVYbeFwex-Hrjjhl60G (.pdf), Harsh Narain, Philosophy East and West, Vol. 13, No. 4 (Jan., 1964), pp. 311-338. I don't agree with it but it articulates the case.

tobes said:
It's certainly being a charge hoisted upon the Madhyamikas....

And I could see how, from a certain vantage point, Shravaka systems could be critiqued for falling into an extreme of nothingness.

But Shravakas themselves aiming for nothingness as the fruit of their practice??

Malcolm wrote:
The Sautrantikas themselves asserted nirvana was a non existence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 7:56 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Virgo said:
Yes, and certain Shravaka schools definitely did assert this point.

Virgo

tobes said:
I really dislike the urge for textual evidence of some kind, but please, which Shravaka schools assert that nirvana = absolute extinction/nothingness? What are their statements?

Malcolm wrote:
Sautrantikas for one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Relatively speaking, your assertion is fallacious because it proposes that events arise from themselves. For example, if you take a stick and jab it into your eye, no inference or abstraction at all is required to understand that the stick making contact with your eye caused your experience of pain.

Astus said:
Seeing the relationship between events is inference, so to learn the connection between them requires abstraction, and it is not visible directly in the events themselves. The causes and conditions for events are known by inference, not by experience, that's why taking experience as the basis is preferable. Furthermore, the veracity of inference is validated by experience, plus inference itself is a form of experience. So, unless there is a way to know things before they are known (apart from extrapolation), there are only experienced events and whatever sense we try to make of them.

Malcolm wrote:
Nonsense, Astus, since, according your reasoning, experiences are also merely inferred, since they are not directly perceived.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:



tobes said:
This is nihilism plain and simple, and about as contrary to Buddhadharma as can be.

Not having to endure skandhas anymore does not equal "total extinction."

Check the Suttas: although the 3rdNT is formally defined as a negation, nirvana is very consistently characterised in positive terms. By the Buddha.

The only people who assert that Buddhist practice is aimed at attaining total extinction were those early Europeans who totally misunderstood the Buddhadharma: Hegel, Schopenhaur, Nieztsche, Weber.....

So, if we're talking about the German School of the Shravakana, then yes, I'll accept your point........

Malcolm wrote:
Clearly the Buddha was not very clear on this point since the Sautrantikas understand nirvana to be a cessation as in the absolute cessation of a given stream of causation. This is why we have, in Mahayana, the idea that the idealized goal of a shravaka is the extreme of cessation.

tobes said:
Precisely: the Bodhisattvayana gains its traction on this point because cessation is seen as the extreme of abiding in (absolute) peace.

Not: sliding into absolute extinction.

Malcolm wrote:
There idea was not just abiding in cessation, but absolute cessation after the breakup of the aggregates.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 11:51 AM
Title: Re: Ground, Path and Fruition
Content:



AJP said:
Hi Malcolm



What are the differences can I ask respectfully?

Malcolm wrote:
Well for example, some systems take the aggregates, and so on as the basis; other systems take wisdom as the basis. It’s important to understand this point because it directly has a bearing on the path, and the result.

AJP said:
So Completion with and without characteristics?

Malcolm wrote:
No, that’s not it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 11:49 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:


haha said:
I have the opinion that experienced teacher can help you to distinguish them. It can be distinguished: one can know this is mind, this is mental factors, this is bhavanga, this is alaya, this is sensation, this is wisdom, this is cessation, etc. There is demarcation to distinguish them.

Malcolm wrote:
Your opinion is not shared by Vimalamitra.

haha said:
That is fine.
The point is whether they are distinguishable or not. Yes, they are.

Malcolm wrote:
The alaya is neither an object of cognition nor a cognizing consciousness. How then do you suppose it can be distinguished?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 11:46 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
haha said:
There is no such as this: first form disappears and then emptiness or lucidity or self or nihilism is dawned. Form is itself empty. Form does not need to cease to become empty; so as the skandha. If someone holds such assertion, then prajnaparamita or Najarjuna is nihilist for them. ‘Form is empty’ does not mean that only after the analysis it becomes empty, nor does it take incalculable eon to become empty. Neither, it needs to transform into something else to become empty. It also differentiates "extinction" in Shravaka and Mahayana path at least some degree.

smcj said:
You’ve got to keep your schools differentiated or you’ll be talking about apples and oranges.

As per Malcolm’s post above, the Sautantrika view of an Arhat’s nirvana is extinction.

The Mahayana view disagrees and sees Arhats as being ‘asleep’. The Bodhisattvas wake them with bless them so they can continue on to the Mahayana.

In fact, since this is in the Kagyu forum, if anything the Karma Kagyu view of Nirvana can be accused of being eternalistic.

So don’t mix them up.

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not, since Kagyus also refer to samsara and nirvana as being extremes to be avoided. That’s what makes them a Mahayana school.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 11:21 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
nagpo said:
But how do you directly experience alayavijnana? How Can you percieve or dustinguish it experientially? How is lungmaten related with that?

haha said:
I have the opinion that experienced teacher can help you to distinguish them. It can be distinguished: one can know this is mind, this is mental factors, this is bhavanga, this is alaya, this is sensation, this is wisdom, this is cessation, etc. There is demarcation to distinguish them.

Malcolm wrote:
Your opinion is not shared by Vimalamitra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 11:12 AM
Title: Re: Ground, Path and Fruition
Content:
AJP said:
Hi everybody

Thought I'd create this thread if Dharmawheel users have any good quotes, teachings on the Ground, Path and Fruition aspect of practice.

Obviously only quotes, teachings that are possible to be made available not restricted.

AJP

Malcolm wrote:
Basis, path, and result are not the same for all teachings. So better to provide context.

AJP said:
Hi Malcolm



What are the differences can I ask respectfully?

Malcolm wrote:
Well for example, some systems take the aggregates, and so on as the basis; other systems take wisdom as the basis. It’s important to understand this point because it directly has a bearing on the path, and the result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 10:55 AM
Title: Re: Trump is now Big Brother right out of 1984.
Content:
Dan74 said:
The Surveillance State got ramped up under Obama like never before.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really, and certainly not to target undocumented people to execute a cruel policy, which any humanitarian should find objectionable.

Dan74 said:
With that judicial intent in mind, it is alarming to read a new report in The Wall Street Journal that found the Trump administration “has bought access to a commercial database that maps the movements of millions of cellphones in America and is using it for immigration and border enforcement.”
Right. So it is the horrible ends the surveillance is getting used for that is your principle beef here, rather than the surveillance itself. Or both? The applications are new, the surveillance hardly so, AFAICT.

As for your "not really", yes, I would say 'really'. Heard of Edward Snowden? Recently he said this:
I mean, this is a — it’s tremendously unpopular, I think, even still today, for anybody to say a bad word about Obama, because, on balance, when you look at a lot of the things that came out of the Obama White House, this is a man that I think most believe tried to do good.
The thing is, some of the things that he failed to do were the most consequential moments of his presidency. And what we saw is that a young senator, who campaigned on a platform of ending mass surveillance, saying, “There will be no more warrantless wiretapping in the United States. That’s not what we do. That’s not who we are,” once he sat in the chair himself, did not extinguish the program; rather, he extended and embraced it — a president who said he was going to hold Bush-era officials to the account of the law and make sure that there was accountability for those who had engaged in war crimes, for those who had tortured, and then very quickly abandoned that. I’m not going to say why, because I don’t know. I think that’s something that he’s going to have to answer to history. But I think our country has very much, I think, experienced the consequences of those decisions.
https://www.democracynow.org/2019/9/30/how_edward_snowden_avoided_extradition_to

Then in addition, there is:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/01/obama-expands-surveillance-powers-his-way-out
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/343785-newly-declassified-memos-detail-extent-of-improper-obama-era-nsa

Malcolm wrote:
You need to read that article more carefully. This is just raw data that no one looks at without a warrant. Most of this data is just out there because people use the internet promiscuously, as if they were in a bar. Data sent over the web is public, not private. The sooner that people figure that out the better. The difference here is that Trump, without warrants, is using commercially collected public data to target people. That is substantially different than what the NSA has been doing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 10:47 AM
Title: Re: Ground, Path and Fruition
Content:
AJP said:
Hi everybody

Thought I'd create this thread if Dharmawheel users have any good quotes, teachings on the Ground, Path and Fruition aspect of practice.

Obviously only quotes, teachings that are possible to be made available not restricted.

AJP

Malcolm wrote:
Basis, path, and result are not the same for all teachings. So better to provide context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 8:31 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Virgo said:
Yes, and certain Shravaka schools definitely did assert this point.

Virgo

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and I am prett sure the deutschavada did not exist when vasubandhu was composing the koshabhashyam


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 8:03 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


Virgo said:
"Nirvana with remainder" is when the person becomes an Arhat and then they continue to experience nāma and rūpa for the remaining duration of their lifetime.  "Nirvana without remainder" is when they have their "final cessation", meaning their is no more life-force, they do not continue to experience nāma and rūpa.

Virgo

smcj said:
Correct. And after which nothing remains.

tobes said:
This is nihilism plain and simple, and about as contrary to Buddhadharma as can be.

Not having to endure skandhas anymore does not equal "total extinction."

Check the Suttas: although the 3rdNT is formally defined as a negation, nirvana is very consistently characterised in positive terms. By the Buddha.

The only people who assert that Buddhist practice is aimed at attaining total extinction were those early Europeans who totally misunderstood the Buddhadharma: Hegel, Schopenhaur, Nieztsche, Weber.....

So, if we're talking about the German School of the Shravakana, then yes, I'll accept your point........

Malcolm wrote:
Clearly the Buddha was not very clear on this point since the Sautrantikas understand nirvana to be a cessation as in the absolute cessation of a given stream of causation. This is why we have, in Mahayana, the idea that the idealized goal of a shravaka is the extreme of cessation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point being, without contact there is no sensation. There is no way one can get around this.

Astus said:
Contact requires the preceding existence of entities, but neither the preceding entities, nor the contact itself is ever experienced. The assumption of both the preceding entities and their contact is based on how interaction between physical objects is commonly imagined, hence calling it the etic or observational perspective.

Malcolm wrote:
Relatively speaking, your assertion is fallacious because it proposes that events arise from themselves. For example, if you take a stick and jab it into your eye, no inference or abstraction at all is required to understand that the stick making contact with your eye caused your experience of pain.


Astus said:
But if we begin from the subjective point of view as experience occurs, then both preceding entities and their contact is derived or abstracted from experience, and not that experience is produced by contact.

Malcolm wrote:
Experiences either arise from an assembly of causes and conditions, or they do not arise at all.

But if you want to continue down this sterile path of intellectual speculation about "experience." Be my guest. But it is silly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: Trump is now Big Brother right out of 1984.
Content:
Dan74 said:
The Surveillance State got ramped up under Obama like never before.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really, and certainly not to target undocumented people to execute a cruel policy, which any humanitarian should find objectionable.

Dan74 said:
With that judicial intent in mind, it is alarming to read a new report in The Wall Street Journal that found the Trump administration “has bought access to a commercial database that maps the movements of millions of cellphones in America and is using it for immigration and border enforcement.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
Queequeg said:
I'm surmising that you have no idea there are schools that explicitly assert Buddhahood is possible in this life time...
As a follow up to this, my impression of these various claims is that its really about moving goal posts around.

As long as we have memory of Shakyamuni Buddha, there will be no buddhas in this world. Full stop.

An attendant occupation is identifying the "oldest" buddha.

Its a serious mistake when we take upaya for the real thing. If we see the real thing, I am told, there can be no conflict with those who also see. Only buddhas really see. Everything else is just striving.

Do your best.

Malcolm wrote:
No, variegated nirmanakaya possible and exist, even now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
nagpo said:
But how do you directly experience alayavijnana? How Can you percieve or dustinguish it experientially? How is lungmaten related with that?

Malcolm wrote:
One can’t.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 9th, 2020 at 3:20 AM
Title: Trump is now Big Brother right out of 1984.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Government Uses ‘Near Perfect Surveillance’ Data on Americans
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/07/opinion/dhs-cell-phone-tracking.html

https://www.wsj.com/articles/federal-agencies-use-cellphone-location-data-for-immigration-enforcement-11581078600?mod=hp_lead_pos5


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:



PadmaVonSamba said:
But in all the schools, it is possible to attain realization in this very lifetime ...if in this single lifetime your karma has ripened to the point that you attain realization.

Malcolm wrote:
Realization, yes; full buddhahood in a single lifetime, from soup to nuts? No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point being, without contact there is no sensation. There is no way one can get around this.


But, inferentially speaking, subject and object makes infinitely more sense: contact --> sensation --> etc. Cannot have contact without a pair.

Astus said:
It makes more sense as long as the world is conceived from an etic perspective, but if we move to the subjective side of how phenomena appear as the basis, then there is no need for the abstraction of unseen elements as producers of appearances. Even if the standard description is followed, the moment of awareness is after contact happened, so it could also be said that talking of experience as the basis is simply moving the focus, if one wants to maintain the established explanation. Also, taking the instance of consciousness as the basis of epistemological theory is the common approach already, furthermore, it can be said to be simply an argument for the topic of appearances are mind. To quote Thrangu Rinpoche again:

"Normally when we think about things we regard that which appears to us externally as composed of particles, and therefore as made up of matter, and we regard our cognition or our mind as a mere cognitive clarity or awareness and therefore as fundamentally different in nature from what we experience or what appears to us. But if we analyze carefully how we experience, we will see that what appears to us are actually fixated images created by our minds through taking many things together and designating them as units with certain designated characteristics. If you analyze the objective bases in physical reality for these designated images — and it is the designated images which we experience, not the objective bases — then you determine that the objective bases themselves, while apparently composed of particles, are actually composed of particles that when analyzed [in greater and greater detail] to the end, eventually disappear under analysis, and end up being composed of nothing. Nevertheless, appearances do appear to us. This of course is about reasoning and not about meditation; this is not an exercise for meditation."
(Pointing Out the Dharmakaya, p 114)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 10:40 AM
Title: Re: How can I purify second hand dharma objects?
Content:
TMT said:
I have some second hand malas and offering bowls and pendants etc. How do I ensure they are safe to use? A similar topic on this forum has me worried and theres no safe way to get rid of them. They are from dharma friends.

Malcolm wrote:
Gifts are different than buying something in a shop second hand, so don’t worry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 10:25 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
tobes said:
I don't think this is the only sense. From a strictly Prasangika view, perhaps. Even then, the limits of thought and language are not necessarily the limits of awakened activity.

Beyond Prasangika, Kongtrul et al are very happy to ascribe positive qualities to this unconditioned state - the sense in which there is an ineffable "suchness" which has the characteristic of being luminous. Very much the Kagyu approach.

Both are only heuristic.

Malcolm wrote:
I was actually quoting the Buddha directly— this is how he replied when asked what happened to an arhat who had passed away. There categorically no unconditioned phenomena beyond space and the two kinds of cessation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 7:11 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


tobes said:
Yes, many kinds of mind/mental events and consciousness' will cease with the cessation of causes and conditions. So, just like trees.

And yet, in the cessation of ignorance, some unconditioned formless, colourless, shapeless x appears. Not like trees at all.

I'm fine with calling that X 'mind' of some kind.

Whatever you call it, in whatever language, it will never be an adequate referent anyway; this is a semantic problem in the root languages as well as in translation....

haha said:
Here is another example instead of the tree. Cessation of burning fire means extinguishment of that burning fire, no ‘X fire’ or 'X' will arise. There is no rising and cessation in unconditioned dharma. Nor it is semantic. Nor Nagarjuna’s dedicatory verses fit in it (i.e. especially anagamam anirgamam).

tobes said:
Indeed, but the point is that the realisation of unconditioned dharma is a. a realisation and b. dialectically connected to sentient beings. i.e. something ceases in someone.

And what remains is not non-existent. If we don't get this, we miss the middle way.

Malcolm wrote:
Only in the sense that there remains no existent by which it’s nonexistence may be described.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Nice ab absurdo fallacy.

Please read more carefully and think for a minute....

Queequeg said:
I did. And that's why I posted that. You don't have to accept my opinion. You also don't need to keep chiming in with your QAnon conspiracy theories.

The truth is banal and infinitely more depressing than the tidy conspiracy theories would have it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, Super Tramp used to have a song about that called "Take the Long Road Home." (Terrible band). In other words, occam's razor is a dirty word to the QAnon peeps.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Phenomena is experienced without a thinker quite frequently. In biology this is called taxis. (No not a yellow cab!)
In other words, living things purposefully interact with external objects even though they have no brain or sensory apparatus.

Malcolm wrote:
Does this mean they have the qualia referred to as "experience." And which kind of living beings do you mean? All living beings, plants, bacteria?

Whether chemical reactions to external stimulus constitute "experience" is highly debatable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Conscious in what sense? Is it a conscious event inherently? Is it a conscious event in absence of contact? In absence of an object? In absence of a mind? How can one even speak of appearances at all in the absence of subject/object bifurcation?

Astus said:
What I say is simply the reverse of the usual presentation, taking the result of the contact - that is, the actual experience - as the source instead as the product. There, in the experience, or instance of consciousness, there is no dividing line between perceiver and perceived, between where mind ends and where mental factors begin, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, that's just dumb.




Astus said:
It is elementary to understand there are a subject, object, and contact, given, as you admit above, there can be no experience in absence of that triad.
Operating with that model can be convenient in general, but problematic when one attempts to take it as more than a simple tool, ending up with looking for an actual subject and/or object and how the two can make contact. But if it's all put within the framework of phenomenological experience, then the divisions are no longer problematic.

Malcolm wrote:
"phenomenological experience" is just a concept.




Astus said:
Further, in the case of a dream, it is clear there is an absence of this triad. Therefore, with respect to dreams you have to account for the experience of them based on some other theory of cognition.
Dreams still have the triad of mind faculty, mental object, and mental consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and what is the distinction between them?



Astus said:
Also, given that direct perceptions are nonconceptual by nature, even your invocation of “experience” is merely an inference, and thus it is in no better place than the inference of subject/object bifurcation, which is standard in Buddhist models of cognition, and in many ways, inferior to it.
It sure is an inference and does not intend to be other than that. Establishing first a unit of experience before the division into elements simply seems more practical to me to avoid the difficulties presented by taking subject and object as separate entities.

Malcolm wrote:
But, inferentially speaking, subject and object makes infinitely more sense: contact --> sensation --> etc. Cannot have contact without a pair.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 8th, 2020 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Sādhaka said:
“White supremacy”

Malcolm wrote:
...has been the policy of the United States since its inception. It was written into our constitution. Educate yourself, man.

The civil rights movement challenged that, but when you look at the GOP, 95 percent of GOP senators are white, and the majority of them are very wealthy men.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:
Minobu said:
Y' all being played with this polarization game.

Malcolm wrote:
You too. Look at all the problems you have with French Canadians, or rather, they you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:



Nemo said:
Oh, so your foreign policy is now coming home. That is terrible. You will hate it. It's the worst.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Do you have a point with any of this? I don't really need to be lectured by you because you want a hit of schadenfreude, keep it yourself and consider that the Americans whose misfortune you are gloating over are going to be those who deserve it the least. Glad you can safely enjoy their pain, and what a great thing to do on a Buddhist forum - like reverse Tonglen! The real situation is heartbreaking.

Nemo said:
If you ever want to diss Canada feel free. But it's kind of like dissing Greenland. No one really cares. But if glorified vassal states that tell themselves how amazing they are all day are worth your time fill your boots. It would only make them feel relevant and make things worse.

I didn't learn to dislike America here. I did so fighting in your stupid wars and taking part in your political shenanigans overseas. The way you dehumanized everyone else on the planet was quite horrifying. I have to live with that every day and every so often in nightmares at night too. So ya, I'm sad the things you have been doing are now being done to you. Maybe if you were as upset when it was people overseas you wouldn't be here now. I'm sorry that truth is one you don't want to hear. As the empire shrinks it will turn it's techniques honed in other countries on itself and eventually on you. I suggest you revolt before it's too late. The democratic party cannot save you. If you think it can you are more likely part of the problem than the solution.

Malcolm wrote:
Since Canada and the US largely share the same foreign policy objectives, it is not surprising you were caught up in our, that is, Canada and the US’s wars. Unlike you, I never joined the service, never would, and have been opposed to every war we have been in, during my lifetime, since not one of them was legitimate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
The corporateization of the Democrats is bad because it makes them such an ineffective alternative..but yes, the Republican party has now sunk to lows that are just incomparable to much of anything else in recent history.

Nemo said:
Didn't Ronald Reagan secretly sell restricted weapons to Iran, diverting some weapons and top secret satellite equipment to Contra rebels while funding them by having the CIA  bring cocaine into America and starting the crack epidemic which he then used as an excuse for the war on drugs? What did Trump do that beats that?

Johnny Dangerous said:
I didn't say anything about Trump specifically, but referenced the Republican party, and was thinking of it's craven descent into proto-fascist rhetoric mainly. As far as recent history Trump has increased drone strikes + number of civilians killed, sold lots of weapons to the Saudis, helped kill tons of civilians in Yemen through Saudi support and enabling, etc. I mean I know in terms of militarism he is nothing special so far (those are big shoes to fill..democrat or republican administrations), but don't act like he's some innocent.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-admin-ups-drone-strikes-tolerates-more-civilian-deaths-n733336
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/384014-trumps-arms-sales-policy-puts-contractors-above-common-sense

Random mainstream news link, but you can find lots more detail from real reporting sources on all of it, The Intercept etc..

Trumps main deal is just feasting off the corpse of the country, and helping his friends do the same IMO.

Malcolm wrote:
And last Friday he lifted the ban on land mines.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Nemo said:
If you ever want to diss Canada feel free.

PeterC said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA

...but in all seriousness, the US has a massive blind spot on how its foreign policy affects the world, and has had one since at least 1823, probably earlier.  This was never going to cause any sense of crisis in the US electorate, because as JD rightly says, it's been a point of shame for those in the US who don't have their heads stuck in the sand for some time.  The sense of crisis comes from what's gone wrong in their domestic policy

Malcolm wrote:
Well, the one thing Canada and the US share, is an inherited foreign policy based on a British culture of white supremacy...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So experiences experience themselves, huh?

Astus said:
When an experience occurs, it is already as a conscious event. To say that the experience is a product of a contact between faculty, object, and consciousness, is an interpretation after the event. As there is no case where one experiences just one of the three constituents, their existence is an assumption based on ordinary/naive concepts of perception that is object oriented (operating with the idea of independent external entities) instead of experiential/phenomenological (taking appearances as they occur). So it is not the case that experiences experience themselves, as that already is an objectification and separation of what does not actually show those properties.

Malcolm wrote:
Conscious in what sense? Is it a conscious event inherently? Is it a conscious event in absence of contact? In absence of an object? In absence of a mind? How can one even speak of appearances at all in the absence of subject/object bifurcation? It is elementary to understand there are a subject, object, and contact, given, as you admit above, there can be no experience in absence of that triad. Further, in the case of a dream, it is clear there is an absence of this triad. Therefore, with respect to dreams you have to account for the experience of them based on some other theory of cognition. Also, given that direct perceptions are nonconceptual by nature, even your invocation of “experience” is merely an inference, and thus it is in no better place than the inference of subject/object bifurcation, which is standard in Buddhist models of cognition, and in many ways, inferior to it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 10:40 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Theravadins generally have no interest in Mahayana bodhicitta, on the other hand, there nothing about starting in Theravada that prevents one from generating Mahayana bodhicitta if they are so inclined.
Anyone who can choose between Mahāyāna and Theravāda, and chooses the latter over the former, is choosing to follow the śrāvaka path. This is noncontroversial.

PadmaVonSamba said:
From the viewpoint of doctrine, this is true. But from the viewpoint of the practitioner, isn’t this really a difference of motivation and goal?
For me, in terms of actual practice, the different paths don’t have to exclude one another. Although I practice vajrayana, I don’t reject the Theravāda teachings. It’s good to study the Pali sutras (”suttas”). I have heard lamas bemoan the fact that the knowledge and practice of so many western students of vajrayana only includes the visualization practices and so on that they’ve learned at their local Tibetan Buddhism center, when there is so much more to Buddhist practice and study. So many people have never read Mahayana sutras or anything from the enormous wealth of the Pali teachings.

I find the terms, “superior” and “inferior” misleading, and perhaps this relates to the attitude of “cliquishness”.
It creates the idea that one path is better than the other.
I see it like this: you can certainly argue that a college education is superior to a primary school education. But that doesn’t mean the primary school education is bad, or wrong, or should be discarded. Without the primary school education, the college education is impossible.

Yes, it can be argued that one goes into deeper analytics than the other. But to assert that makes it superior is sort of like suggesting that being a surgeon is superior to being a general practitioner doctor. If the patient doesn’t require surgery, cutting them open won’t cure their illness.

I am a vajrayana practitioner for about 35 years. However, my family is moving soon, and our new house will be very close to a Theravāda temple, and very far from a Tibetan Buddhist center. I happen to know a couple of the Thai monks there very well, and look forward to spending time there, learning and studying, and meditating. My motivation is not any different. It is still to eventually attain full awakening for the benefit of all sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 9:30 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
a concept (thought) without a thinker is not imaginable, conventionally speaking.

Astus said:
It is actually imaginable in terms of phenomena being experiences in themselves, of empirical nature without the need to separate it to observed-observer, contained-container, and other such dichotomies. The basis of conventional reality can be reduced to a stream of experiences that naturally has the quality of being experienced without the need for something external to experience it.

Malcolm wrote:
So experiences experience themselves, huh? Pretty incoherent, Astus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 9:13 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:



ford_truckin said:
Why wouldn't we? Democrats have been making fools out of themselves since the day Trump won.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm....no.





Do you need more?

ford_truckin said:
These are obviously mentally sick people. Not how a true trump supporter would behave.

Malcolm wrote:
Ostrich, head, ground.

Then of course there are the rallies where peaceful young black men are punched in the face by violent old white men.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 9:11 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Queequeg said:
Oh please. It is difficult already.

Malcolm wrote:
And apparently toothless, since no president has ever been successfully removed upon being impeached by the House.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
It's pretty hilarious that a Trump supporter would bring up maturity, there is no mouth big enough to fit that foot.

ford_truckin said:
Why wouldn't we? Democrats have been making fools out of themselves since the day Trump won.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm....no.





Do you need more?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #1
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Perhaps more significant is the total popular vote - only around 170,000.  Last time around the Dems in Iowa turned out well over 220,000. Thus a lukewarm Dem electorate in Iowa.

Malcolm wrote:
31, 890 for the Republican caucus, so I guess we can just say that voters in Iowa are lukewarm in general. Who can blame them.

Oh, and of course Trump attacked Romney and the Democrats at the National Prayer Breakfast. He is the hardest working asshole we have ever had in office, except he does not have to work very hard at that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Can there be a concept without a mind?

Astus said:
Do thoughts need a thinker? On the one hand they do, as that is how it is conceived conventionally that actions need agents. On the other hand there is no thinker, there are merely instances of experiences of various types, and even talking of instances is quite fabricated.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, if you want people to understand what a "concept" is, you need a "thinker." Otherwise claiming that "Rather, it's just a concept. There is no experience one could identify as "the mind," is a self-defeating proposition since a concept (thought) without a thinker is not imaginable, conventionally speaking.


Astus said:
Typically, mind (citta) is one thing, mental factors (caitta), another. They arise together, but they are not the same. The latter coordinate the experience of the six senses for the former.
And that can be a useful distinction to some extent. However, as there is no such thing as a stand alone mind, nor can there be unconscious experiences, it is for conventions sake to posit a mind with the sole function of awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing as a stand alone mind, this is true, but nevertheless thoughts (content) are not the mind (container), nor do thoughts exist outside a mind which thinks them, otherwise, this is just another conversation that winds up in the zero sum of negating the relative with the ultimate, and that is not the intention of the two truths and renders your rhetoric nihilistic.

If on the other hand, you acknowledge that there is a mind, conventionally, then you can acknowledge that is has experiences, etc., while at the same time including the fact that like all other phenomena, minds arise out of causes and conditions, along with their content. After all, matter is empty, emptiness is matter, etc. The ultimate does not negate relative, conventional phenomena, including mind, experiences, and everything else. The ultimate and the relative are inseparable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 7th, 2020 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


Astus said:
Rather, it's just a concept. There is no experience one could identify as "the mind".

Malcolm wrote:
Can there be a concept without a mind? Typically, mind (citta) is one thing, mental factors (caitta), another. They arise together, but they are not the same. The latter coordinate the experience of the six senses for the former.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Cultural History studies related to Buddhist symbols and ritual objects
Content:


Niina said:
I just would like to understand the relationship between Buddhism and power objects made of human bones. Deeper than just saying that skull cup or mala reminds of death and helps to get rid of fear of death. It seems, that in collections of different museums there is lots of these objects, but (at least in those sources what I have found), it is just said that objects are made on human bone. No explanations or context.

Malcolm wrote:
The function and purpose of these objects is secret, not to be explained to outsiders. Sorry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 6:47 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
The main point is we nominal Buddhists, who supposedly abhor the three poisons of anger, foolishness & craving, praising and blaming with fervor.  Yet with no real basis for painting anyone as a total monster or total sage.

Malcolm wrote:
There are some of us who think that Donald J. Trump is an especially harmful person. He is not a total monster, no one is. But he is a criminal—even many Republicans, such as Lamar Alexander, Mitt Romney, and so on, admit this—and should be voted out, impeached again, etc., whatever legal remedies can be imposed for a lawless president.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 6:16 AM
Title: Re: Vajra Guru Mantra Mudras
Content:
Dorje Shedrub said:
I have never before seen mudras for the vajra Guru mantra. Is this more commonplace then I realize or something unique to this Lama?


Malcolm wrote:
Specific to this lama, AFAIK.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Although the expression 'loyal opposition' is not ancient (early 19th c.) it no longer even pretends to exist here.

Malcolm wrote:
Trump has been impeached, and at least one Republican who has a conscience, Mitt Romney, is voting for his removal.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Pelosi explains her tearing up of the President's speech because it was a "manifesto of untruths".

Malcolm wrote:
As indeed it was.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
“He shredded the truth, so I shredded his speech.”
-- Nancy Pelosi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
- the very real fact that there are people who prefer to become arhats, and eschew, for various reasons, entering the bodhisattva path with Mahāyāna bodhicitta. They prefer the inferior bodhicitta of śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas for this and that reason.

Minobu said:
really is this what happens?
like people can actually choose to become arhats, or,  prefer the inferior bodhicitta of śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas prefer the inferior bodhicitta of śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas ..

i've never met a person here on earth who has  done such a thing consciously .

is that factual , have you met people that have done this?

Malcolm wrote:
I have. They study Mahāyāna, and decide, usually based on a bias towards text critical methodology, that Mahāyāna is not "the original" and select for Theravada, where the bodhisattva path is not TAUGHT, even though it theoretically exists.

Minobu said:
is it something you read or have you met a bunch of arhats  and  people that prefer the inferior bodhicitta of śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone who can choose between Mahāyāna and Theravāda, and chooses the latter over the former, is choosing to follow the śrāvaka path. This is noncontroversial.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Do the four binding factors apply to pratimoksha vows?
Content:
TMT said:
In Dudjoms Rinpoches commentary on Ngari Panchen's "Perfect conduct", the four binding factors that constitute a root downfall are given in the section on bodhisattva vows. Im wondering if these apply to the pratimoksha vows.

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:


Minobu said:
on SNL she ripped up a picture of the pope and said"Tthis is the real enemy"...the effect was disastrous..
psychologically ruinous .

Malcolm wrote:
Ummmm.....look at the Catholic Church now, and the hundreds of millions they are paying out to settle child abuse claims. Seems like she had a real point, no?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:
Minobu said:
Her ripping the president's speech will define the democrats...

Malcolm wrote:
Are you kidding? Exactly what I would have, only I would not have waited until the end. What a speech full of lies and bullshit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Not really. All this shit is completely impermanent. As practitioners of Buddhadharma, no matter what our political orientation, the Dharma view comes first. All this is compounded, afflicted, and not self.

Queequeg said:
Dude, if one is fully committed to practicing Right View 24/7, WHAT THE $@^%$ ARE YOU DOING IN THE LOUNGE? This forum is not for you. We should put a sub-heading for the Tea Lounge: PRAPANCA FACTORY - NOT FOR THE PURE PRACTITIONERS.

Malcolm wrote:
Wherever there is a deep māra, there is a deep Dharma, and vice versa.



Queequeg said:
Nice to count you among us sinners.

Malcolm wrote:
I am definitely no angel.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Tsunami in a teapot
Content:
Supramundane said:
the current culture wars in the US

Malcolm wrote:
are mainly about abortion rights.

Queequeg said:
Abortion rights are a big deal, but how do you figure "mainly"? I suppose its about the qualifiers - "culture war"... I can see the distinction of the legacy of racism being different than the "culture war".

I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Malcolm wrote:
Because this is what caused really caused the realignment of the GOP and the Democrats in the seventies. Roe v. Wade was exactly the right tool at the right time to cause Americans to have entrenched disagreements over a religious principle. Racial separation used to be seen as a religious issue by racists. But when these reasons were found to be a result of poor thinking and even worse science, the only thing left for people to hang onto was their mistaken belief that the Bible forbids abortion (it doesn't, anywhere).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
When this point is brought up in the context of a political discussion, its out of place. Its gas lighting.
Not really. All this shit is completely impermanent. As practitioners of Buddhadharma, no matter what our political orientation, the Dharma view comes first. All this is compounded, afflicted, and not self.
Of course we'd be better off following the Buddha in all sorts of ways - for one, there wouldn't be an enemy tribe carrying our family off, for instance.
Not sure about that. The GOP is pretty similar to the barbarians at the gates of Rome.
We're not there. In the meantime, we do our best to counter the infliction of unnecessary suffering.
There are three kinds of suffering: suffering of suffering, change, and suffering of the compounded. This is very much the suffering of change. These temporary measures don't really cut it. The only thing that eliminates suffering is Dharma. Everything else is barely even palliative.

Nevertheless, MAGA hats and Confederate flags still piss me off no end.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Tsunami in a teapot
Content:
Supramundane said:
the current culture wars in the US

Malcolm wrote:
are mainly about abortion rights.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:


Queequeg said:
But, don't let me disturb you from your myopic stupor. Its just all in your head. Don't worry about it.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, the point is that it is not in your head at all, it is in your five sense organs and five sense objects, which proves that a self cannot be found in the material aggregate.

We get upset about [insert political opponent here]. The Buddha watched his relatives being carried off into slavery by an enemy tribe. I suspect that we would be better off following the Buddha's example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 6th, 2020 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Trump vs. Pelosi
Content:
ford_truckin said:
That's something you would expect from a 5 year old child not a mature woman.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm...excuse me? The most immature person in the room last night was not Pelosi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


smcj said:
I’ve had ample experience of altering my brain chemistry to conclude that cognitions happen in the brain. However since the nature of mind is not subject to change, I’ve always assumed that Nature refers to something other than cognitions.

And yes, I know about Mahamudra and the like.

Malcolm wrote:
The nature of the mind is its clarity and its emptiness; the former is mutable and the latter is not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Nupchen Sangye Yeshe
Content:
Dorje Shedrub said:
The only info I can find is all from the same source but on different pages. Here is the info from Khenchen Lama's site. I'm just trying to confirm this information if anybody else has references or knowledge.

https://khenchenlama.com/padmadragngaglingpa/

Malcolm wrote:
This terton's termas are not found in TBRC, and do not seem to have been included in the 300+ volume collection of new termas which one can find there (I could have missed them, the catalogue is long). But that does not mean this terton is not legit. There are many tertons who were not included in this collection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Nupchen Sangye Yeshe
Content:
Dorje Shedrub said:
Was Padma Dagnag Lingpa an incarnation of Nupchen Sangye Yeshe, one of the five closest disciples of Padmasambhava? I can only find info on this on one website. Does anybody else have informationa or sources?

Malcolm wrote:
The terton being referred to is Padma Drag sngags gling pa, a mid-twentieth century terton, who passed on in the 1950's.

Dorje Shedrub said:
Was he an incarnation of one of Padmasambava's main disciples? Not the same as Pema Lingpa, right?

Malcolm wrote:
All tertons are emanations of one of the 25 disciples.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Where is ‘Mind’?
Content:


smcj said:
However when i was a little kid i used to get into fights with my brother. When he’d punch me in the chest I’d get the wind knocked out of me. When he’d punch me in the head I’d get confused.

So my own investigation and experience says that mind is in the head, not the heart region.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the brain governs sense organs. So being confused just means you have had the senses knocked out of you. Mind is not in the brain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: both hindu and buddist at the same time
Content:


Mexica-Moxijia said:
Soul is not refuted in many mahayana traditions, in tibetan buddhism it varies depending on the school, while many reject the notions, some of the nyingmapa, kagyü and bön talk of a concept of soul.

Malcolm wrote:
You are confusing bla (བླ) with the western concept of the soul. They are not the same thing, and it is incorrect for the Bonpos, or anyone else, for that matter, to translate bla as "soul."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: Nupchen Sangye Yeshe
Content:
Dorje Shedrub said:
Was Padma Dagnag Lingpa an incarnation of Nupchen Sangye Yeshe, one of the five closest disciples of Padmasambhava? I can only find info on this on one website. Does anybody else have informationa or sources?

Malcolm wrote:
The terton being referred to is Padma Drag sngags gling pa, a mid-twentieth century terton, who passed on in the 1950's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:


Nemo said:
Mark an X paper ballots with all party scrutineers watching the process and counting together is bullet proof. Which is why I think they keep trying to get rid of it. The closest thing we have to a machine is the padlocks on the ballot boxes which never leave sight of the scrutineers.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. And it is not an accident that all the voting machines in the US are made by Republicans. Now there is a conspiracy for you, right out there in plain view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Sealing merit
Content:
cjdevries said:
I have been dedicating the merit after dharma actvities, usually saying something like "I dedicate this merit to liberation."  Is that enough to seal the merit, so that the merit generated does not run out and continues to go toward enlightenment for all beings?  Or are there more elaborate dedication prayers that should be followed in order to dedicate the merit properly?

Malcolm wrote:
You do not even have to say, you can merely think.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 5th, 2020 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:


Queequeg said:
I really liked voting on those big clunky machines. There was something really satisfying in pulling the lever that closed the curtain, flipping levers for the candidate I wanted to vote for, and then pulling the lever to enter the vote.

Malcolm wrote:
Too complicated. Where I live, you walk in, you check in, are handed a paper ballot. You walk to the booth (no curtain), then use a magic marker to check boxes. You leave the booth and check out; you take your ballot to a guy who runs the ballot counting machine, which is hand operated and was built at the turn of the 20th century. You feed your ballot into the box, the guy pulls a lever, which causes the machine to accept the ballot, and then it makes a satisfying DING!. Walla, done. Unhackable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Queequeg said:
As of this moment... They still can't tally the Iowa results. Total clusterf$@#.

Nemo said:
The day before Trump is cleared of his impeachment. Impressive. One would almost think the rulers of the Democratic party would rather lose to Trump than elect a dem soc like Bernie.

Malcolm wrote:
Very likely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Queequeg said:
I often use a word that starts with r to describe things like this but my wife scolds me.

Some dolts thought the party should get modern and have an app for reporting results.

What's wrong with calling in the results like they always do?

Can't get the phones to work either.

A party that can't get their shit together on something this routine wants to lose, indeed.

Malcolm wrote:
And now we discover that Mayor Pete, etc. have been paying Shadow for software rights and subscriptions.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/02/04/after-epic-nightmare-iowa-democratic-app-built-secretive-firm-shadow-inc-comes-under


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 9:22 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Bernie appears to be killing it in Iowa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 9:14 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Psh, we've had kill squads officially or unofficially for my entire life, ask South America. I am not sure that's the deep state, in fact, sadly that is just business as usual, literally. Whether it's done at the behest of United Fruit or the military.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, fir example POTUS has sole authority to launch nukes, and could so on a whim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 8:55 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Virgo said:
Nothing any of our whistleblowers have reavealed shows that any of our intelligence agencies have gone "rogue" in that way.  It simply shows they don't always play fair.

Virgo

Nemo said:
Private kill squads under the direction of one man with no oversight or chain of command.
https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/57707/

"This time it's different. We are the good guys now. Not like last time we got caught. Or the time before that."

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not the deep state. Since POTUS is the top of the chain of command... you can fault the constitution fir allowing the president to have too much power, but that does not turn the executive branch into the “deep state.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 6:49 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Choose the opinion that supports your prejudice here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state_in_the_United_States

I go with the guys that say that "deep state" is horse pucky.

Rand Paul bitches about the deep state, but that's cause they won't let that libertarian wingnut anywhere near classified intelligence, and so he cannot get on this committee:

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/about/committee-members-116th-congress-2019-2020


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Soul vs Consciousness?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
How would one argue that the subtle consciousness referred to in Vajrayana, the one experiencing the bardo state and taking rebirth, how would one argue that this isn’t just another way of asserting some concept of a soul or atman, some kind of permanent self?

smcj said:
What would you call  something if it was continuous between lifetimes, but was capable of infinite change?

Malcolm wrote:
A karmic bungee cord.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:



Nemo said:
If you had an inkling of how much you don't know on this particular subject you would be embarrassed. Deep state gave me a sweet pension. Captain's pay is not bad.

Malcolm wrote:
Said some anonymous guy on the internet.

Nemo said:
The avatar is an actual picture of me in my work clothes from back in the day.

Malcolm wrote:
Said some anonymous guy on the internet.

The CIA, the NSA, etc., the "17" intelligence services of the US Gvt. are not the deep state. COOP plans are not the deep state.

There is no secret government running things, at least, not in the USA and the EU.

All this business about a deep state is merely unwarranted paranoia.

Unless of course you can prove it...but generally anonymous guys on the internet can't prove anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Nemo said:
This I know from personal experience. I'm not talking out of my ass.

Malcolm wrote:
Said some anonymous guy on the internet. You have as much credibility on this subject as QAnon.

Nemo said:
If you had an inkling of how much you don't know on this particular subject you would be embarrassed. Deep state gave me a sweet pension. Captain's pay is not bad.

Malcolm wrote:
Said some anonymous guy on the internet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Nemo said:
This I know from personal experience. I'm not talking out of my ass.

Malcolm wrote:
Said some anonymous guy on the internet. You have as much credibility on this subject as QAnon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:


Nemo said:
That there is a deep state is obvious to anyone who has worked there. So you are saying that there is no layer of the security state that transcends the ability of flash in the pan temporary political appointments to reform or even fully understand. That's pretty ignorant. Even someone who watched Yes, Minister has a cursory understanding of the process. How on earth did you come to this conclusion? Does it just feel true?

Malcolm wrote:
This is like calling the police "a deep state" because the police departments are always there, while mayors come and go.

A deep state is a clandestine government which acts independently of political leadership. Despite much hand-wringing on TV shows, conspiracy theorists and "pundits" on Faux News, there is no such thing in the USA.

Calling US government employees, including those in the service, members of "the deep state" is just plain silly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Nemo said:
the deep state

Malcolm wrote:
There is still no "deep state." Just Gvt. employees doing their assigned jobs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Soul vs Consciousness?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
How would one argue that the subtle consciousness referred to in Vajrayana, the one experiencing the bardo state and taking rebirth, how would one argue that this isn’t just another way of asserting some concept of a soul or atman, some kind of permanent self?
.
.
.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, because even the subtle consciousness, the mind of clear light in Geluk jargon, is relative and compounded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Coarse language
Content:
Ayu said:
I don't really umderstand the point in this discussion (as member, not as mod).

There are ten unwholesome deeds defined in Tibetan buddhism as well. Four of them are about speech. One of them is called 'coarse speech'. Defined in sutra and lam rim.
So, in buddhist terms, how can violent speech be not an issue? Especially when it doesn't come from an enlightened being but an ordinary person.
And how should speech be not affecting? I don't understand. Viewed from my experiences, it makes no sense.

If language had no effect we don't need to use it at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Swearing is not necessarily violent. The term rtsub is much more like abusive speech. While swearing can be abusive, it mostly falls under the heading of idle speech. People read about the karmic consequences of speech acts themselves, and then decide now they wish to speak. Polite speech can be far more injurious than crude speech, in fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: 本仏 / Adibuddha
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
especially if one conceived of the ādibuddha wrongly in the first place before endeavouring towards autodidact devayoga.

Malcolm wrote:
Without receiving the empowerment, one cannot practice any deity yoga at all.

Deities are just expressions of Abdhidharma concepts, in general. For example, the celestial mansion is understood to represent the thirty-seven bodhipakṣadharmas and so on. The purpose of deity yoga, the creation stage, is to counteract the ordinary concept of "I," "I am Malcolm," for example, with a transcendent concept of oneself, " I am Mañjuśṛī." And then you have a completion stage, to break attachment to even that sense of identity, in which nonconceptual samadhis are rapidly generated with a combination of prāṇāyāmas and postural yogas, etc.

The whole point of these is purify the obscurations related to afflictions and obscurations related to knowledge, respectively, that is the creation stage deity yoga is the remedy for affliction; the completion stage is the remedy for knowledge obscurations.

And yes, you need a guru, since you need empowerment, and yes, trying this on one's without guidance is always disastrous. One becomes a rudra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
If President Trump is reelected...

Malcolm wrote:
Big if.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 4th, 2020 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: 本仏 / Adibuddha
Content:



Caoimhghín said:
I've looked at a few Tibetan Ādibuddha sources, and the chief practice to do with that seems to be a devayoga practice where you become the Ādibuddha, an endless gateway to prelest and vainglory if one is not prepared, so I see why they don't want just anyone running off to do these practices in their bedrooms. Transforming into a misconceived God-equivalent strikes me as a lightening rod for delusions of grandeur and mental illness, so it's good to keep these things under wraps sometimes.

Malcolm wrote:
You are referring to Kālacakra? You don't become the ādibuddha. You are trying to realize your own nature which is called "ādibuddha" euphemistically. One adopts a deity form to eliminate ordinary concepts. It is not at all what you imagine here. [/quote]


Caoimhghín said:
I haven't read the part to do with the creation of the world yet, but apparently the Sanskrit term used is ādideva, not ādibuddha. In light of that, check how incomplete and a bit deceptive this dictionary entry is:

Malcolm wrote:
The term ādideva occurs, which is translated into Tibetan as "thog mar...lha," where adi is taken as a modifier of the whole phrase, creator and prime mover.  But this is part of a refutation:
The Bhagavat said, “Āditya and Candra came from his eyes, Maheśvara came from his forehead, Brahmā came from his shoulders, Nārāyaṇa came from his heart, Devi Sarasvatī came from his canines, Vāyu came from his mouth, Dharaṇī came from his feet, and Varuṇa came from his stomach.

“When those deities had come from Avalokiteśvara’s body, that bhagavat told the deity Maheśvara, ‘Maheśvara, in the kaliyuga, when beings have bad natures, you will be declared to be the primal deity (ādideva) who is the creator, the maker. All those beings will be excluded from the path to enlightenment.
https://read.84000.co/translation/toh116.html

Caoimhghín said:
yadaite devā jātā āryāvalokiteśvarasya kāyāt, athāryāvalokiteśvaro bodhisattvo mahāsattvo maheśvaraṃ devaputrametadavocat–bhaviṣyasi tvaṃ maheśvaraḥ kaliyuge pratipanne | kaṣṭasattvadhātusamutpanna ādideva ākhyāyase sraṣṭāraṃ kartāram, te sarvasattvā bodhimārgeṇa viprahīṇā bhaviṣyanti, ya īdṛśapṛthagjaneṣu sattveṣu sāṃkathyaṃ kurvanti

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.dsbcproject.org/canon-text/content/42/387


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 1:38 PM
Title: Re: Coarse language
Content:
tkp67 said:
My grandparent's generation did not curse at all. It was seen as a gravely offensive behavior.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean no one cursed at all in their generation? Well, the evidence firmly stands against this idea.

Johnny Dangerous said:
The people with the biggest pottymouths I've known (and I have a bit of one myself) have all been over 80 years old.

Malcolm wrote:
This shows a positive correlation between use of profanity and longevity. People who swear more are happier and less stressed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 7:28 AM
Title: Re: Fourth Reich
Content:
mikenz66 said:
...I guess that's a Christian site, and Buddhist, Daoist, and Confucian ideas don't count, though they do acknowledge the (very new) Falun Gong.


Mike

Kim O'Hara said:
It's not explicitly Christian but that may only be because they feel no need to mention it ... https://spectator.org/about/...Published remarkably without regard to gender, lifestyle, race, color, creed, physical handicap, or national origin.

The American Spectator Foundation educates the public on new ideas, concepts, and policies that favor traditional American values, such as economic freedom, individual liberty, self-sufficiency, and limited government.  ...

Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Quite inferior writing and editing there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 6:49 AM
Title: 本仏 / Adibuddha
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Ādibuddha doesn't show up in sūtras. 本佛, on the other hand, I'm still looking at. See above post.
Supposedly we have 本初佛 "original first buddha" in Avalokiteśvaraguṇakāraṇḍavyūhasūtra (佛說大乘莊嚴寶王經 T1050) from around the same time period as Mañjuśrī-jñānasattvasya-paramārtha-nāma-saṃgīti, which is identified with the Chinese text 佛説最勝妙吉祥根本智最上祕密一切名義三摩地分 T1187. T1187 doesn't have anything resembling 本佛 at all. I'm checking through T1050. If this isn't a new thread by then, I'll just start a new one.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there is nothing like that in Tibetan version, there are references to buddhas of the past, but that is it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Coarse language
Content:



tkp67 said:
They where an upright generation, at least the ones I was exposed to.

Malcolm wrote:
And a lot of them swore like sailors and truck drivers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 4:19 AM
Title: Re: Coarse language
Content:
tkp67 said:
My grandparent's generation did not curse at all. It was seen as a gravely offensive behavior.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean no one cursed at all in their generation? Well, the evidence firmly stands against this idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Coarse language
Content:
pemachophel said:
I talked to my wife on our lunchtime walk and she agreed with me that the incidence of profanity, cursing, swearing, whatever you want to call it markedly escalated with us Boomers.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, I guess I don't agree. My experience is different than yours. My grandmother on my dad's side, and my grandfather on my mom's side, were both champion swearers.

Remember, "god damn" used to be a very heavy swear word, as was "Jesus Christ!" Tibetans swear by saying "dKon mchog gsum!", but they also have more colorful words.

And the 16th Karmapa swore all the time, being a Khampa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Coarse language
Content:
pemachophel said:
Loppon-la,

I also agree there has always been cursing and cussing, but I think there was a definite up-tick in the use of swear-words with the Baby Boomers, especially in the 60s and 70s. Before us, I think so-called gentlemen and gentlewomen (what a concept!) did not swear so openly and constantly. Definitely men tended not to swear in front of women and most "respectable" women simply didn't swear. I just have to think of my grandmothers, aunts, and my mother to know that swearing was not acceptable behavior. I clearly remember getting in serious trouble when my friend and I (12 years old, 1958) were overheard using the word "screw" on the front porch when we thought no one was around. Yeah, definitely, I do think our speech and behavior have coarsened and I do think that is having its karmic repercussions.

Malcolm wrote:
This just reflects your upper middle class background. Working class people have always cussed and sworn. These mores came to the fore only when the new middle class Americans began to ape Victorian mores. Before that, there was a lot of cussing and swearing.

Also, I just want to point out that the large majority of our more offensive swear words are normal Anglo-Saxon words that were in regular use in common language prior the Norman invasion, and only became deprecated due to systematic oppression of Anglo-Saxon language by the Normans. So, also, we can understand swearing as a social revolt against our "betters."

For your consideration:

https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Sh-Brief-History-Swearing/dp/019049168X/ref=pd_sbs_14_t_0/132-3067801-8163269?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=019049168X&pd_rd_r=174a15b3-791a-4b81-8b69-8cb50c145918&pd_rd_w=4pJnC&pd_rd_wg=gNF5G&pf_rd_p=5cfcfe89-300f-47d2-b1ad-a4e27203a02a&pf_rd_r=99RDZH37T26GHSSGWSZ2&psc=1&refRID=99RDZH37T26GHSSGWSZ2

https://www.amazon.com/Swearing-History-Language-Profanity-English/dp/0140267077


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: Fourth Reich
Content:
mikenz66 said:
Not to minimise the madness that the Chinese have had to suffer (I know people who were "sent to the fields" during the cultural revolution...). However, this seemed a little strange. The targets of this despotism are primarily religious believers — Falun Gong, Uyghur Muslims, and, most recently, Christians. Millions have been victimized by these vicious pogroms in recent years — and it appears the persecution has just gotten started.

Why is the Chinese government acting so ruthlessly against its major religions?
I guess that's a Christian site, and Buddhist, Daoist, and Confucian ideas don't count, though they do acknowledge the (very new) Falun Gong.


Mike

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetans have been putting up with genocidal Chinese policies for 60 years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 3:18 AM
Title: 本仏 / Adibuddha
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The term makes its first appearance in Mañjuśrī-jñānasattvasya-paramārtha-nāma-saṃgīti ( http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2012/T1187.html ), translated into Chinese by Dānapāla, circa 1000 CE. So you can look there and see how the term is translated.

Caoimhghín said:
Well, if it's showing up, it certainly isn't as 本佛. The term 本 is only really extensively appearing in context of 根本智/"fundamental wisdom" here.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, the term is not found in Sūtras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Coarse language
Content:
pemachophel said:
I don't think we can separate the rampant use of profanity and the ills of uncivil discourse we are currently experiencing in the U.S. Profanity is non-virtuous activity and will have its inevitable karma fruit. It may seem like a joke to some, but I don't think it actually is.

I say this with full recognition and disclosure of my own long-standing habit of profane speech.

Malcolm wrote:
There has always been cussing and swearing. I don't think it is worse now then before.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 3rd, 2020 at 1:05 AM
Title: 本仏 / Adibuddha
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Ādi is "root," is it not?

If "Ādi" isn't "Root," then the Sanskritized form should be "Mūlabuddha." Sanskritizing Chinese terms is a common practice in English language Dharma, because pinyin is so unwieldy. Maybe it shouldn't be a practice, who am I to say?

Queequeg said:
本仏
Original Buddha.
本 has a wide array of meanings.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%9C%AC
Root, source, foundation, etc.

Could translate to Adhibuddha, I suppose. But if it causes confusion best to leave it.

Caoimhghín said:
木 is a tree, and 本 is a tree with the roots indicated visually. It seems "root" is one of the principle/older meanings of this term, and other meanings further originate from that.

Honestly, IMO if people want to smuggle God into their Buddhadharma, they won't stop because they lack a term to appropriate. I'm for "Root Buddha" rather than "First" or "Original Buddha" anyways, because rather than being the first in a chronological series, it is more like an underlying root making a stem possible.

And if moderators want to split threads, that's up to them. They certainly don't need participants' permission.

Malcolm wrote:
Adi is translated into Tibetan as "dang po," first. Thus adibuddha is dang po'i sangs rgyas, the first or original buddha. The term makes its first appearance in Mañjuśrī-jñānasattvasya-paramārtha-nāma-saṃgīti ( http://21dzk.l.u-tokyo.ac.jp/SAT2012/T1187.html ), translated into Chinese by Dānapāla, circa 1000 CE. So you can look there and see how the term is translated.

The term has nothing to do with a progenitor of any kind, as I mentioned, in this case it refers to Mañjuśṛī who, being without beginning or end, is considered the first buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: Soul vs Consciousness?
Content:
smcj said:
...to appropriate without itself being appropriated by anything else, to be the genuine owner of a certain limited section of reality (the stream of consciousness), this is to be a free and sovereign (though finite) personality, a self-conscious, spiritual substance in the language of Catholic metaphysics.
This is what I understand the Shravakayana and subsequent Mahayana doctrines reject as unaware and incorrect assumptions.

“Personality” is the current configuration of karmas that format fundamental energies, a confinement of those energies. It is not the essence of a being. Liberation is a release from than confinement and subsequent spontaneous expression of those energies as Buddha Activity.

Or so it seems to me at this point in time.

Malcolm wrote:
I was simply pointing out how the largest Christian denomination in the world in world defines the word "soul." Their definition lines up perfectly with the atman refuted by the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 8:58 PM
Title: 本仏 / Adibuddha
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Ādi is "root," is it not?

If "Ādi" isn't "Root," then the Sanskritized form should be "Mūlabuddha." Sanskritizing Chinese terms is a common practice in English language Dharma, because pinyin is so unwieldy. Maybe it shouldn't be a practice, who am I to say?

Malcolm wrote:
Adi means “first”.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
justsit said:
From where I sit, there are plenty of Gen-Xer's and Millenials flying Confederate flags on their Dodge Ram pick-em ups plastered with Trump stickers.

Every age group, every city, every neighborhood has racists; no generation, no location is homogenous. I find the recent posts very sad and disappointing, that the sacrifices of the Civil Rights movement members of the 60's, black and white, who gave their lives for the cause, are brushed off with such callous disregard.

Malcolm wrote:
We didn’t brush them off. We simply recognize that despite the benefits to our society such social change brought, there has been a persistent, muted resentment among older whites about civil rights and feminism, fanned by Fox News and conservative publications, unleashed into full view when Obama was elected, followed by the trashing of Clinton, and the technical win the electoral college gave Trump.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: Soul vs Consciousness?
Content:
Unknown said:
For surely there is something which in its turn "appropriates" the passing thought itself and the entire stream of past and future thoughts as well, viz. the self-conscious, self-asserting "I" the substantial ultimate of our mental life. To be in this sense "monarch of all it surveys" in introspective observation and reflective self-consciousness, to appropriate without itself being appropriated by anything else, to be the genuine owner of a certain limited section of reality (the stream of consciousness), this is to be a free and sovereign (though finite) personality, a self-conscious, spiritual substance in the language of Catholic metaphysics.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.newadvent.org/utility/search.htm?safe=active&cx=000299817191393086628%3Aifmbhlr-8x0&q=Soul&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A9


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 9:46 AM
Title: Re: Soul vs Consciousness?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Look, Hindus define the atman as consciousness; Catholics define the soul as one”s individual consciousness. The Hindus define jiva at a as ones personal consciousness— therefor soul = atman.

Wayfarer said:
The term 'soul' is not the equivalent of the Vedantic term 'ātman' which was rejected by the Buddha. The view of those who believe in the idea of a ‘permanent self’ is frequently expressed in terms such as this example from the Brahmajāla Sutta:

The self and the world are eternal, barren, steadfast as a mountain peak, set firmly as a post. And though these beings rush around, circulate, pass away and re-arise, but this remains eternally. (DN1.1.32)

The Alagaddūpama Sutta likewise criticizes those who think:

‘This is the self, this is the world; after death I shall be permanent, everlasting, not subject to change; I shall endure as long as eternity’ - this too he [i.e. ‘the eternalist’] regards thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’

Here, ‘this’ is that which ‘the eternalist’ believes is something durable, within which ‘beings rush around, circulate and re-arise’. This arises from the Vedic teaching of sat as ‘what really exists’ -  something which is to be distinguished from asat, that which is illusory or unreal. Hence in this formulation, sat is what is ‘eternal, unchangeable, set firmly as a post’, and distinguishable from samsara or maya. Sat is conceived as ‘the essence of things’, both in general terms as Brahman and particular beings as ātman.

The Buddha neither denies nor affirms that there is a self (See https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html ) but says that 'everything arises as a result of dependent origination'. So the conception of an eternally-existent self which is apart from dependent origination is what is rejected. The Buddha's teaching is much more subtle than that.

However, I agree that the frequent expression 'the Buddha teaches there is no soul' is not quite correct either, insofar as this can be interpreted as materialism, i.e. that beings are simply subject to physical laws and there are no further consequences of karma beyond this temporal existence.  That is the usual meaning of 'having no soul'.

But neither does the Buddha teach there is a soul. Really the word 'soul' is a term from Western cultural discourse and doesn't have an exact equivalent in the Buddhist lexicon, so it's mapped against ātman and then criticized on those grounds, but that is not quite correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Soul vs Consciousness?
Content:
smcj said:
A "soul" is an inert (unchanging) discernible object.
Consciousness is not limited by such an inert object.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, actually, the Catholics define the soul as one's consciousness. Likewise, the Hindus, and some Buddhists around here, define consciousness as the atman (soul).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:



justsit said:
Yes, some, maybe many or even most in some places, over 40 white people are racist, but not all. Not by a long shot.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, but I know old white guys who were avid civil rights protestors in the 60's, who are pretty racist, even if they do not see it in themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It got reinforced by an entirely obstructionist congress during the last six years of the Obama administration, largely because we forgot that White Americans older than 40 are racist as f(*k, and they vote on their prejudice, more than anything else.

Virgo said:
Yes, it's f'ng disgusting. My generation was the first to the actually accept all people (blacks, latinos, asians, etc) as equals... at least where I am from.

Virgo

justsit said:
Sorry, I don't want to derail the impeachment conversation, but your statement is blatant BS, at least where I'm from.

Who do you think ruled in favor of desegregating public schools in 1954 (hint: the Supreme Court consisting of 9 old white men ruling on Brown vs. Board of Education). Who do you think helped get the Civil Rights Act passed in 1964? Who do you think marched at Selma and other sites, probably before you were born? Who made sure the schools in Little Rock were desegregated by federalizing the Arkansas National Guard over the orders of the Governor? Does no one know any history??

Yes, some, maybe many or even most in some places, over 40 white people are racist, but not all. Not by a long shot.

Malcolm wrote:
Uh huh, and who do you think is trying to roll it all back? Certainly isn't Gen Xrs and millenials.

And be honest, the vast majority of people in the civil rights movement were, well, black. And even the men who passed those laws were, mostly racist as f(*k, including Johnson, etc. It is to their credit however that they overcame their prejudice and did the right thing. But honestly, a lot of it was just politics and vote garnering, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Coarse language
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Oh, I enjoy swearing, swearing is fun. Four letter words are immensely flexible and can convey a whole range of sentiment, positive to negative, other words simply cannot match.

F*%$ yeah!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
What to do about Bloomberg?  Michael Moore does not like the DNC working with him:

Malcolm wrote:
Any one blue will do, even another billionaire, who at least, unlike our fearless leader, has experience running governments, not just trying to cheat them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
TrimePema said:
If i understand correctly, alaya is not a thing it is a term that denotes a collection of functions of ignorance. the ignorance ceases to operate in the  Dzogchen level of the ultimate result and only the four kayas remain. This can be the result of either trekcho or thogal.

Malcolm wrote:
The all-basis, ( kun gzhi, ālaya ), is just ignorance; it is the Dzogchen term for what in other systems is called "the knowledge obscuration."  This is why in the text called Stainless Space in the Lama Yang Tig, the mind, aka all-basis, is called "an obscuration to be abandoned."

It is distinct from the basis ( gzhi, sthāna ), which is never contaminated by ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 2:06 AM
Title: 本仏 / Adibuddha
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Ādibuddha

Malcolm wrote:
This term is strictly found in Vajrayāna literature. I am not really sure it is appropriate to use it outside of this. Some people have the idea that it refers to a person. It does not. It refers to reality, the realization of which causes buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
Misty said:
"In Dzogchen, the ālaya is discarded, not purified."

Is this called "Togal"?

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is at the level of the ultimate result, whether practicing either trekcho or thogal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 2nd, 2020 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Dan74 said:
In fairness, I think this is largely true of both sides of politics. They are either knowingly corrupt or gradually learn to equate their ideology with truth, their talking points with facts and their self-interest with national interest. And above all, they appear to lose a capacity for critical self-examination and a sense of shame.

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, this trend in American politics really started with Newt Gingrich's "Contract with America" in the 1990's, during the Clinton Administration. It got reinforced by an entirely obstructionist congress during the last six years of the Obama administration, largely because we forgot that White Americans older than 40 are racist as f(*k, and they vote on their prejudice, more than anything else.

Anyway, the new world order is what it is for now, and we simply have to bear it, and hope enough Americans get off their asses and vote this guy out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:


Dan74 said:
Not only that, but the fact that they are undisputed is also undisputed. As is this fact.

Malcolm wrote:
Which merely proves that Trump's lawyers are bad at their jobs [but we knew this already], and that GOP has no interest in anything other than raw power. As Jefferson said:

"Some are whigs, liberals, democrats, call them what you please. Others are tories, serviles, aristocrats, &c. The latter fear the people, and wish to transfer all power to the higher classes of society; the former consider the people as the safest depository of power in the last resort; they cherish them therefore, and wish to leave in them all the powers to the exercise of which they are competent."
Jefferson to William Short, January 8, 1825, in Ford, XII:335.

The Republican Party is just the Tory Party now. We chased them out of America once (to Canada), and we will do it again. America does not want, nor does it need, an imperial presidency.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
I have never really understood this distinction. Under the above model, how is the purified alaya - mentioned in the Lankavatara for instance, different from Rigpa?

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, the ālaya is discarded, not purified.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
justsit said:
OK, thanks all who replied to my question, your explanations are quite clear.

So, bottom line now is that there are 51 Senators who, for legal or electoral or other reasons, agree that Trump gets a walk? He gets a wrist slap and an asterisk in the history books for being impeached, and back to business as usual?

When Trump was elected, many of my friends were panicked. I tried to reassure them, "As long as we maintain rule of law, we're fine." Apparently I was too optimistic.

ETA Why does a simple majority suffice for a matter of this import? Other serious issues such as amending the Constitution have stiffer requirements - "...an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures." (National Archives)

Malcolm wrote:
Removing a president requires two thirds of the senate to vote for removal. Seating witnesses in an impeachment trial is a simple majority vote under present rules.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
AJP said:
I don'y think they're the same but I'm not an academic. Once contains seeds of karma as a storehouse, whereas the other is beyond that which is the same for everyone.

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa is the same for everyone? Where did you hear that?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Rigpa and Alayavijnana
Content:
Queequeg said:
Are these the same thing?
If so,
Are there distinctions in the way alaya is described in Yogacara and rigpa in Dzogchen?

If this has been discussed here already, reference would be appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
No, definitely not.

The all-basis consciousness is a product of ma rig pa, ignorance, the opposite of rig pa, knowledge.

In yogacāra, after the seeds of the all-basis consciousness is exhausted, it vanishes, along with the afflicted consciousness. It itself transforms into gnosis.

This process is not accepted in Dzogchen. Gnosis, or pristine consciousness, is present as the basis, and the basis is has the nature of the three kāyas. In Dzogchen, the three kāyas are not newly produced, but are always present in the form of potential.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
Queequeg said:
I will now leave this beneficial medicine here. You should take it. Do not worry about not recovering.
-Life Span of the Thus Come One Chapter

Anyways, the point is

Malcolm wrote:
that kids will be kids.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
tkp67 said:
The diamoku represents the LS including the buddha of the ten directions past present and future. What means is not present in this scenario?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you really want me to answer this one.

tkp67 said:
All words are sufficient teachers as are all products of the mind, so please be my guest.

Malcolm wrote:
The list is too long.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:


Dan74 said:
Equanimity is always best, as you say. The danger is to confuse it with acquiescence. If I get sick, it's great if I can be equanimous about my sickness but do what is necessary all the same. If I see that my community is sick, the same. Does one see the massive inequality of opportunity as health or as sickness is then the question.

Malcolm wrote:
It is pretty obvious that inequality in any biosystem leads to the collapse of that system as a whole. It is also pretty obvious that the inequalities in European society led to the rise of various types of socialism in Europe in the 19th century. It is equally obvious that inequalities in America led to a brief flourishing of socialism in the US, which was stunted by the Red scare of the early 50's; revitalized by Johnson, and then quashed by the GOP from Reagan onward.

Dan74 said:
As for what remedies work, 'socialist' remedies like providing quality schooling for all do indeed make the classes less fixed and give people a reasonable starting chance to achieve their potential. Look at a lot of European countries and how they've eroded the deeply ingrained class system in the last 50 years, for example.

Malcolm wrote:
For example, in 1960, apart from fees, all colleges and universities in California were free. However, in 1966, Regan began to gut this program, and 1976, free college was no more in the state of California.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
tkp67 said:
The diamoku represents the LS including the buddha of the ten directions past present and future. What means is not present in this scenario?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you really want me to answer this one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:


Queequeg said:
I'm not sure if that description of Sudden Path lines up with what I understand it to be. Sudden Path would be taking a carefully prepared tincture and being instantly cured.

Malcolm wrote:
Carefully preparing a tincture takes a lot of time...just saying. Meanwhile, the patient is still sick.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
PeterC said:
They [The Democrats] need to become the party of the working man again.

Malcolm wrote:
Or, we need a new labor movement in this country, to do what the Democrats seem unable to do [and the Democrats have become increasingly less effective in politics since and probably because of the Clinton presidency].


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:



Queequeg said:
Here is the thing I've observed about Ekayana schools: they maintain that there is a direct path that can be traversed now and that awakening is imminent at all times. Everything else, any path that is not the direct path, is dawdling about, wasting time, wasting opportunity.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this basically amounts to saying that if you have jaundice and you want to stop seeing everything white as yellow, you just need to cure the jaundice. [sudden path logic]

But curing jaundice takes time, and different patients need different treatment protocols. [gradual path logic]

Saying jaundice is perfect and nothing needs to be done about it is nihilist logic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 1st, 2020 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Material wealth is not an indication of merit. For example, the poorest Dharma person has infinitely more merit than the wealthiest Christian.

Queequeg said:
Infinities of infinities... Being born human itself is the culmination of profound, infinite merit. Then the distinctions in merit between humans is of a more refined infinity, no? We can talk about infinite numbers, and we can talk about the infinite divisions between 1 and 2.

Malcolm wrote:
A precious human birth is defined by meeting the Dharma. DIdn't meet the Dharma? Then you are just a bubble in the pot—you are inevitably going to lower realms, it is only a matter of time.


Queequeg said:
Nevertheless, we should still tax the wealthy to provide healthcare for the poor, especially in a country where three people alone hold as much wealth as the half the entire population.
Doing so will ensure that more people can have the leisure requisite for Dharma practice. Whether they take advantage, that's a different story, but reducing desperation can only tend to the good.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.




Queequeg said:
Which, in turn, leads to ineffectual socialistic "remedies".
Well, basically, it all depends on whether you want socialism for the 1%, which is what we have now; or socialism for the other 99%, which is how it should be.
People need to grok - a lot of the wealth we are talking about is not accumulated through 'good, honest work' but rather rigging the rules so that money funnels into certain pockets no matter what the person those pockets are attached to does. What I'm about, and I believe Malcolm would concur, is altering the rules so that money doesn't just funnel into a few pockets, but rather flows more freely through the entire social community. In a sense, all I'm advocating for is to fix the rules so that the trickle down actually trickles down.

Malcolm wrote:
The only way to ensure this is through taxation of the super wealthy. After all, when we built all these beautiful roads and bridges, the marginal tax rate was more than 70% of income over 1 million (in 1935). Everyone needs to pay taxes, the rich must pay more. The argument you sometimes see that well, 50% of the country pays no income taxes to the feds ignores the high taxes levied against poor people in the form of sales taxes, fuel taxes, etc., which impact poor people enormously, but do not impact the wealthy at all. Then there is corporate malfeasance. As I pointed out elsewhere, we subsidize the fossil fuel industry in this country  so much the money is in excess of the budget of the Pentagon, costing every American family nearly 8k a year.


Queequeg said:
Soak & punish the rich and pour monies toward the poor.  Will those attitudes & policies end the two classes, no.
Well, yes, they will. They will make it impractical to store money in passive investments that remove money from the economy. And if we do not reverse the redistribution of wealth from the poor to the ultra rich, then the ultra rich are going to have to hire private armies to protect themselves against the justifiably outraged working class, like they did in the gilded age.
The way my father explained the New Deal's success to me, and which I believe was the way the New Deal used to be explained in grade school history was that the money was sitting on shelves and so FDR just put the money into circulation.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, he did this with the 1935 with the Wealth Tax, and the modern tax system with earnings taxes being withheld started in 1942 with the Victory Tax. The Wealth tax is the engine that fueled the New Deal.

Queequeg said:
To analogize to the human body... if all your blood is pooled in your feet, that's really unhealthy. If you have a good circulatory system, everything is going to be a whole lot better.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:


Shiva said:
Indeed there is just one vehicle in Nichiren Buddhism. The Buddha Vehicle; equivalent to the Tibetan Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
All Tibetan Buddhist schools are ekayāna schools. It is standard Indian Mahāyāna. The discussion of three vehicles is from the point of view of bodhicitta of the aspirant-- the very real fact that there are people who prefer to become arhats, and eschew, for various reasons, entering the bodhisattva path with Mahāyāna bodhicitta. They prefer the inferior bodhicitta of śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas for this and that reason.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
The point was that rich people cannot be, karmically speaking, void of all merit because they are rich now.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, yes they can. Birth in a higher realm exhausts the merit that put them there.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Nor can materially poor people be founts of every kind of merit, because they are poor now.

Malcolm wrote:
Material wealth is not an indication of merit. For example, the poorest Dharma person has infinitely more merit than the wealthiest Christian. Nevertheless, we should still tax the wealthy to provide healthcare for the poor, especially in a country where three people alone hold as much wealth as the half the entire population.


Nicholas Weeks said:
Therefore I was hoping for more equanimity toward classes, instead of using strictly material criteria.  Why more equanimity toward the rich & poor?

Malcolm wrote:
There are not that many rich people to "soak," only about 400 people or so.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Because if we ignore karmic causes, we tend toward despising the rich & pitying the poor.

Malcolm wrote:
But we are supposed to the pity those who are less fortunate, and we ought to provide them with assistance. It creates jobs, actually.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Which, in turn, leads to ineffectual socialistic "remedies".

Malcolm wrote:
Well, basically, it all depends on whether you want socialism for the 1%, which is what we have now; or socialism for the other 99%, which is how it should be.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Soak & punish the rich and pour monies toward the poor.  Will those attitudes & policies end the two classes, no.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, yes, they will. They will make it impractical to store money in passive investments that remove money from the economy. And if we do not reverse the redistribution of wealth from the poor to the ultra rich, then the ultra rich are going to have to hire private armies to protect themselves against the justifiably outraged working class, like they did in the gilded age.

Nicholas Weeks said:
So of course we help those poor with money and encourage the rich to be generous.

Malcolm wrote:
That money has to come from taxes. The wealthy have far more than they need.

Capisci?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Narak Kong Shak Questions
Content:
fckw said:
Interesting stuff. Question: how would one practice for someone else in this context?

Malcolm wrote:
There are elaborate rites called "Changchog" for this purpose. They basically involve summoning the consciousness of the deceased, and performing what basically amounts to an empowerment for the deceased. There are other rites, more or less the same called shinpo jedzin, "leading the deceased."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What the Buddha taught, in Mahāyāna, was exchanging oneself with others:

"May all the lack of merit and suffering of all sentient beings ripen on me.
May all of my merit and happiness ripen on sentient beings."

The problem is, this does not fit well with conservative ideology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:



Dan74 said:
Right. So do you find it just and right that the children born into poor families do not get anywhere near the opportunities of the kids born into rich families?

Malcolm wrote:
Karma, dude. Cant do anything about it, nor should we, according to Nick's conservative ideals. It is just the way it is, regardless of poor little tommy only being able find food in the public school that is about to be shut down because all the white people in his mixed-income county have withdrawn their kids from public schools and placed them in publicly-funded, religious charter schools.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Queequeg said:
Oh, people are freaking out about the Hasids.

https://nypost.com/2019/12/29/multiple-people-stabbed-in-attack-at-rockland-county-synagogue/

Malcolm wrote:
Well, not sure that is what I had in mind by freaking out.

Queequeg said:
That was a spasm out of the gestalt. Antisemitism is heating up.

Another one:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/nyregion/jersey-city-shooting-terrorism.html

Malcolm wrote:
The Black Israelite thing is just bizarre.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
The question is not 'most people' but those on this Mahayana forum.  Do you and they accept Buddha's teaching on generosity's karma fruit?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but it is not sufficient. This idea of karma, as you present it, is very Hinduistic in its passivity. "You poor? Too bad, suck it up, its your karma, bitch."

That is not what the Buddha intended. The Buddha instructed the wealthy to practice generosity. To whom were they supposed to be generous? Why, to the poor, of course.

When the ultra wealthy are not generous, through tax evasion, corporate subsidies, parking money in passive investments which take money out the economy, engineering tax cuts for themselves, etc., all of this is stinginess by definition. It may result in birth in lower realms, or a poor human being, but the fact is that there are far more poor people than wealthy people, and if wealthy people do not do their part, like they did from 1935-1980, by paying higher marginal tax rates, and so on, as they say on the street, "shit is going to get real."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Queequeg said:
Oh, people are freaking out about the Hasids.

https://nypost.com/2019/12/29/multiple-people-stabbed-in-attack-at-rockland-county-synagogue/

Malcolm wrote:
Well, not sure that is what I had in mind by freaking out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Queequeg said:
Regarding Rockland and the issues between the hasidic and minority communities:

http://nymag.com/news/features/east-ramapo-hasidim-2013-4/

Malcolm wrote:
You know, if there were Muslims studying Madrasas in Newburgh the way Hasids study in Yeshivas, people would be freaking out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
The rich have and will always have, material benefits that the poor do not.

Malcolm wrote:
The rich are rich because they earn their wealth by exploiting the poor, and have for generations benefitted themselves with wealth redistribution policies that take money away from the poor.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Yep, when politics strike the mind, buddhadharma fades away.

Buddha taught that generosity will result in a future lifetime of being rich.  The converse of stinginess results in material poverty.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, most people aren't Buddhists, and so will really not see your point at all.

And some of us understand that since much of the gains that rich people have are ill-gotten, it is not unethical to tax them appropriately so they cease being a burden on the rest of us. Right now, the wealthy are placing a huge burden on the rest of us because they do not pay their fair share.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Dan74 said:
Nicholas, what do you make of this:

Improve Education Opportunities for Our Children and Empower Parents to Make Education Decisions
Our children are the future of our great nation. Young people should be provided every opportunity to succeed regardless of their zip code. Yehudis believes state and local governments should make education policies which allow parents the freedom to choose the best education for their child.

Does this mean that the rich will have great schools and the kids from poor family the proverbial FA, basically entrenching the classes?  What about the Land of Opportunity?

Nicholas Weeks said:
The rich have and will always have, material benefits that the poor do not.  So her boilerplate means little without details. Whether her policy details are rich with devils or angels remains to be seen by the voters in this very liberal district.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Lots of liberals gush over Charter schools, usually in accordance with their income, and whether or not their kids might materially benefit from subsidized private school. It tends to be actual community and educational organizations that are their real opposition, as moneyed mainstream Liberals have been fine with selling off the commons at least since Clinton was president.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, we need a real labor movement in this country.

Not surprisingly, Bernie is garnering one union endorsement after another; meanwhile, Biden is telling Latinx people to vote for Trump if they question Biden on Obama-era deportation policies. The Democrats are so stupid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
The rich have and will always have, material benefits that the poor do not.

Malcolm wrote:
The rich are rich because they earn their wealth by exploiting the poor, and have for generations benefitted themselves with wealth redistribution policies that take money away from the poor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:


Queequeg said:
What her policy is about is: people should be able to get vouchers for public money that they can use toward private school education. Its worse than charter schools. Its straight up theft of public funds.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes. This is terrible, it is illegal, more than that, it is unconstitutional in so far as it violates the establishment clause.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
shaunc said:
The wealthier parents pay taxes as well. Why shouldn't their schools get their share of the government money and if they're happy to pay extra to have better amenities so be it.

Malcolm wrote:
That money goes into the local public school system. Charter schools draw that money down, and take it away from the public school system. The government should not subsidize private school educations at all. It's illegal, actually.

shaunc said:
The fair way would be Xamount of $/child regardless of whether the child lives in a wealthy area or not.

Malcolm wrote:
This is what the public school system is supposed to ensure. Charter schools undermine this. Further, fundamentalists are testing the limits of the separation of church and state by getting funding for what are basically parochial schools, funded with taxpayer money.


shaunc said:
If the parents of the children in the wealthier private schools pay more to get a better standard of education why is it anyone else's concern how they spend their money.

Malcolm wrote:
If they want to send their kids to a real private school, awesome. But they still have to pay taxes to support the public education system, just as I do, someone with no children at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Youth will have its Day
Content:
Dan74 said:
Nicholas, what do you make of this:

Improve Education Opportunities for Our Children and Empower Parents to Make Education Decisions
Our children are the future of our great nation. Young people should be provided every opportunity to succeed regardless of their zip code. Yehudis believes state and local governments should make education policies which allow parents the freedom to choose the best education for their child.

Does this mean that the rich will have great schools and the kids from poor family the proverbial FA, basically entrenching the classes?  What about the Land of Opportunity?

Malcolm wrote:
This is just a way of further undermining the public educational system, by allowing "charter" schools to drain tax payer dollars away from local schools.

Private schools are fine, for those who want to send their kids to them. But I am completely opposed to the public funding of what are essentially private schools, aka charter schools. Just another set of GOP policies we are going to have to rollback, once we have a decent socialist in office.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: HH Sakya Trichen Virus Advice
Content:
conebeckham said:
This mantra is usually recited first thing in morning, immediately after all are seated, in group practices at Kagyu monasteries when engaging in intensive accomplishment rituals, followed immediately by Nam Jom Zung and NamGyal Zung, FWIW.  Dunno if that is common to other lineages or not.

Malcolm wrote:
The mantra given in the above text distributed with HHST's video is incorrect. Here is the correct version.

Oṃ piśaci parnaśavari sarva jvara praśamana svāhā.

conebeckham said:
Yes.  Glad you corrected; I wasn't sure if it was appropriate.

Malcolm wrote:
There are a couple of other spelling errors in it as well, which caused me to mistranslate the supplication. It should be:


I pay homage to she who quells all
obstructing spirits of illness of the practitioner,
the goddess who arose from the miraculous display
of the illusory gnosis of all victors.


།ༀ་པི་ཤཱ་ཙི་པརྣ་ཤ་བ་རི་སརྦ་ཛྭ་ར་པྲ་ཤ་ན་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།

Oṃ piśaci parnaśavari sarva jvara praśamana svāhā.

By this merit may I quickly
accomplish Parnaśavari,
and may all all migrating beings
be placed on her stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: HH Sakya Trichen Virus Advice
Content:
conebeckham said:
This mantra is usually recited first thing in morning, immediately after all are seated, in group practices at Kagyu monasteries when engaging in intensive accomplishment rituals, followed immediately by Nam Jom Zung and NamGyal Zung, FWIW.  Dunno if that is common to other lineages or not.

Malcolm wrote:
The mantra given in the above text distributed with HHST's video is incorrect. Here is the correct version.

Oṃ piśaci parnaśavari sarva jvara praśamana svāhā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 31st, 2020 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:


Queequeg said:
I'm not interested in a long argument about this, but I'm not going out on a limb in stating that the exclusion goes both ways. The terminology is not common.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course. Indians never heard of Zhiyi, and none of his works were ever translated into Sanskrit, as far as anyone knows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:


Queequeg said:
I don't know if the terminology lines up, but the Lotus is not considered Common Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Common Mahāyāna is a Vajrayāna term. Vajrayāna refers to itself as uncommon Mahāyāna. From this perspective, yes, also the Lotus is included in common Mahāyāna for any number of reasons, the most significant of which is that whereas empowerment (abhiṣeka) from all the tathāgatas is the culmination of the path of common Mahāyāna in the last half of the tenth bhumi, it is the entryway into the path of Secret Mantra. Naturally, this idea is foreign to Tientai philosophy, which arose prior to the advent of Vajrayāna as a major movement in India, Central and SE Asia. Zhiyi (538-597) passed away just as Secret Mantra was emerging in India. Thus, its scriptures, practices and so on are completely excluded from Zhiyi's hermeneutical schema. His interpretive scheme simply can't be applied to the Mantrayāna Tradition.

Queequeg said:
As for the 42 or 52 stages, this is from Avatamsaka Sutra and another sutra I can't remember the name of offhand, respectively.

Malcolm wrote:
The 52 stages are strictly Chinese Buddhist interpretation of the Avatamsaka Sūtra, which has five chapters describing the qualities of the ten bhumis; but in China, it was interpreted that these chapters (such as the ten dedications, etc.) were themselves distinct stages and levels of practice. This concept is complete absent in Indian Mahāyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: "Xenobots", are they sentient beings?
Content:
Nemo said:
Most yogis who hide on retreat think the entire world is sentient. Dry scholars argue otherwise.

Malcolm wrote:
As did the Buddha, hardly a dry scholar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Dan74 said:
Some may well say, the US economy is going strong,

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks to Obama. The growth of the economy has actually slowed under Trump.

Dan74 said:
Trump is finally getting a good deal out of China,

Malcolm wrote:
Tariffs are stupid, and no, we are not getting a "better deal."


Dan74 said:
the trade deals with Canada and Mexico have been renegotiated,

Malcolm wrote:
They are largely the same as they were before, with only cosmetic changes.



Dan74 said:
the tougher stance on the illegal migrants isn't about racism but that the jobs actually go to the Americans

Malcolm wrote:
Total nonsense. People from Mexico and Central America have never "taken jobs away from Americans" by migrating here. Instead, NAFTA created a more or less stable economy in Mexico (now coming apart at the seams because of Orbador), and American companies sought the cheaper labor on Mexico. So we exported jobs. But Mexicans etc., never took jobs away from Americans in this country.

Dan74 said:
NATO countries are finally beginning to foot their bill in defence.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they aren't. As of March, 2019, only the US, UK, and Greece(!) met their targets, joined by Poland, Latvia and Lithuania.

Dan74 said:
Not to forget the compassionate First Step bill about prisons signed into law by the Donald. Oh, and no, he hasn't started WWIII contrary to all the progressive hysteria.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm...no, that was supposed to be the reason we weren't supposed to vote for Hillary.

Dan74 said:
And you will surely have a handy rebuttal to every one of these points and disregard the fact that the conservatives had the same for when people were supporting Obama. Is it equivalent? Can one be judged to be objectively better than the other?

Malcolm wrote:
Every net benefit we are experiencing today began in Obama's administration. Trump just does what he usually does, that is, claim other people's accomplishments as his own.

Every net deficit we will be experiencing in the years ahead will be a result of Trump's gutting every regulation he can find. The sad thing is that the gutting of clean air regs and clean water regs in the US have the actual effect of making your children's world a more unsafe and more unhealthy place to live, since other countries will follow suit. Conservatives have to get their heads out of their asses and understand what is actually valuable to conserve (environment, animal life, human life) and stop catering wholesale to destructive, extractive capitalism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Emptiness
Content:
shanyin said:
I want to learn mantras. How do I chant Om Mani Padme Hum as a form of meditation?

Maybe

Chant slowly, and listen?

Malcolm wrote:
Find a guru, receive the transmission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I know a self-identified American communist who is so eager to hail the coming revolution that he voted for Trump in the interest of destabilizing America.

Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of stupid people in the world, including this logic you saw in some progressives in 2016, "If Trump gets elected, he will screw everything up so much, people will have to vote him out."

Not sure that is going to happen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
florin said:
However here the discussion is about individuals who have the two confidences in place already. Kongtrul's advice is that they should study the tantras and their commentaries to gain a proper understanding of the contents and then seek to receive authentic initiation.

Malcolm wrote:
You should go ask a Khenpo before you continue to spread this advice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:


florin said:
After a few exchanges you always revert to personal and instead of sticking to debating the arguments you always feel the need to undermine your opponent by questioning their capacity and understanding.

Malcolm wrote:
We would not be having this debate if you had not cited Kongtrul to support your understanding.

florin said:
As you constructed your argument instead of questioning my capacity to understand you should have directed your poison at Elio.

Malcolm wrote:
Translators, myself included, make difficult choices at times, intending only the best for their readers. This is the reason why I check the Tibetan, etc., to see if perhaps an unintended meaning accompanies an English word, with connotations that are not implied by the Tibetan word. People who do not know Tibetan do this all the time with English translations of Buddhist classics, causing themselves and others no amount of confusion.

In Tibetan, mnyan pa does not carry the implication of going to Amazon and ordering the Tsongkhapa's commentary on Cakrasamvara to study it prior to having received the Cakrasamvara empowerment. It means go and hear something about tantra from a qualified person so one can have confidence in tantra.

florin said:
I will stick to the way Elio translated these texts and i am happy with that. After all they have become classics and droves of practitioners have been helped by them.

Malcolm wrote:
No doubt many people have been helped by these translations, but that does not mean one accepts every single English word in them at face value.

Why don't you go ask a Kagyu Khenpo who is expert in this text whether he thinks it means that an unripened person should just go and study any tantric commentary they like without first having received the empowerment, and see what kind of answer you get.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: HH Sakya Trichen Virus Advice
Content:


Könchok Thrinley said:
Does anybody know anything more about the " Bodhisattva Loma (Gyonma) "?

Malcolm wrote:
Parnaśavari is a powerful mantra used for quelling epidemics.

I pay homage to she who quells all
obstructing spirits of illness, the accomplishments of the goddess
who arose from the miraculous display
of the illusory gnosis of all victors.

Oṃ piśapani śavari sarvajvara paśamanaye svāhā.

By this merit may I quickly
accomplish Parnaśavari,
and may all all migrating beings
be placed on her stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
It is nice to know that there are now only intelligent Dem voters and only stupid Rep voters.  Simpleminded & vapid inference.


Malcolm wrote:
Oh no, I didn't say that.

Anyone who voted for Trump is stupid. There are plenty of dumb Dems who voted for him, and plenty of smart Republicans who didn't. You asked a different question:
So during the many decades the Democrat party supported lynchings & horrid oppression of black folk (who voted Republican), there were few stupid Dem voters?
After the civil right movement of Sixties when there was a reversal of party support, all stupid Democrat voters started voting Republicans?
So yeah, go back to your oatmeal, and get yourself ready to make another dumb vote in November when you go to the polls and vote for the total destruction of Democracy as you knew it in your lifetime by voting Trump 2020.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Norwegian said:
Unfortunately there are no intelligent Trump supporters. So there's that.

Brunelleschi said:
Plenty of rich, well educated, and presumably intelligent Trump supporters. They simply vote on what they think will benefit them.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, they can't be all that smart since they support rollback of wet lands protection, deregulation of everything, lower public health standards, etc., you name it, all of Trump's policies are aimed solely at fattening the wallets of the super-rich. And most Trump supporters are not super rich.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
So during the many decades the Democrat party supported lynchings & horrid oppression of black folk (who voted Republican), there were few stupid Dem voters?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you know as well as I do that prior to the civil rights movement, southern Republicans and Northern Democrats formed a liberal coalition in Congress, which brought about the Civil Rights legislation passed under the Johnson Administration.

Nicholas Weeks said:
After the civil right movement of Sixties when there was a reversal of party support, all stupid Democrat voters started voting Republicans?

Malcolm wrote:
You said it, not me. This is when Nixon decided to embrace the racism of George Wallace, known as the "southern strategy." So yeah, once the Republican Party went into full racist reaction mode to the Civil Rights movement, all the stupid Democrats started voting Republican.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 30th, 2020 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Ok, I want Kongtrul's actual words, not what some introduction states. You asserted this was Kongtrul's position. As far as I can tell, this is not that.


florin said:
Ok.
Here. Maybe you will be satisfied now.
Taken directly from the text itself.

Furthermore, such an individual must have three types of confidence,
the first two of which are the prerequisites for the third: [one,] confidence in what one is embarking upon, the profound tantra of the mantra way, which is the condition related to one’s focus; [two,] confidence in the person who leads one onto the path, a magnificent master, the causal condition;
and [three], based on those two, confidence in oneself as a practitioner of the path.
--------------
That being the case, a person who possesses the [first] two types of confidence
initially must learn the meaning of tantra. He or she therefore studies
the tantras and their commentaries. Once a sound understanding has
been achieved, that student should next begin cultivation of the two phases
[of practice] of the meaning of tantra, the precondition for which is to
receive, in an appropriate manner, an authentic initiation and to assume
properly the pledges and vows. All the stages of the mantric path are thereby
included in [two steps]: first, receiving an initiation to ripen oneself and assuming
pledges; then, the main element [of the practice], the cultivation of
the two phases of the path that effects liberation.

Book six part 4 chapter 11 " The Path".

Malcolm wrote:
I am still not sure about this. One reason is that to study the tantras and commentaries means a. One is literate, still rare in Tibet in 19th century; b. Has access to texts. C. Most unlikely, a literate person in in Tibet who has never ever received any empowerment. D. Each section of a major empowerment qualifies one to study different kinds of tantras, and not before. So this may indeed be JK’s position, but there is a lot of context missing here. So I still think it not sound advice, considering what the tantras themselves say about such matters.
"He or she therefore studies the tantras and their commentaries."

The word in red is not "studies." It is "mnyan pa," to hear. In other words, one is encouraged to go and hear about the general meaning of "tantra" in order have confidence. For example, like the words of encouragement at the end of the Lam rim, etc., which encourages faith in Vajrayāna and briefly explains its superiority to common Mahāyāna, but it certainly does not mean studying tantras and commentaries without guidance. Moreover, it can be read that what is being encouraged here is to study with meaning of the word "tantra" itself. There is no mention of "rgyud rnams," tantras in plural, but rather "rgyud" alone. So, I think you've misunderstood this point. It is certainly fine to study what the word "tantra" means and have confidence in this vehicle. But it is passingly strange to encourage people to study tantras and commentaries, and contradicts what Kongtrul says about the need for secrecy in Buddhist Ethics (TOK, book 5, pp. 261): "(7) To disclose secrets to immature persons means to reveal the secrets of profound bliss...to someone who has not been ripened by initiation..."

Now in fairness, Kongtrul assumes this means that one should not disclose Vajrayāna methods to people interested in practicing as a śrāvaka and so on. But other masters, such as Sakya Paṇḍita, have a very different idea. Sapan remarks that this seventh root downfall includes showing one's vajra and bell, etc. or performing ganacakras, etc. explaining secret mantra, etc. to anyone who does not possess empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:


Norwegian said:
Unfortunately there are no intelligent Trump supporters. So there's that.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Ah goodness - intelligence determines human character & value?

Malcolm wrote:
It's a determining factor, but not the only one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
Sādhaka said:
...and consider that the first Dharma in this Kalpa....

Implying that neither Shravakaya nor Paramitayana as Yanas were the ‘first’ Dharma teaching.

The implication being that Mahāsaṅdhi & Vajrayāna include the Paramitayana in its entirety; whereas the Paramitayana only hints at Vajrayāna & Mahāsaṅdhi.

smcj said:
There’s always a back-and-forth between samsaric awareness and enlightened awareness. In fact one of the many definitions of “Dharma” is the connotation of enlightenment with unenlightened awareness.

For its part samsaric awareness usually has to work from outer to inner, from crude to subtle, confined to free, from blindness to seeing, etc. This can be seen in the 9 Yanas paradigm.

Enlightened awareness works from a position where it sees the Path in its entirety. It sees what the last step is for a being before awakening. It sees what is to be done 10 steps before awakening. And it sees what needs to be done lifetimes before awakening.

So when I read your citation, I understand it to mean “first” not in the chronological sense, but in the sense of the closest step to full awakening. The further away from full awakening a Teaching is you could call “later”.

Is that what you mean?

Malcolm wrote:
He means, chronologically speaking, that Dzogchen was the first teaching given in this mahakalpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:




florin said:
" Kongtrul further points out that a practitioner of tantra must have three
kinds of confidence: confidence in the profound path of tantra upon
which one embarks; confidence in the person who leads one on the path,
an authentic master; and confidence in oneself as a practitioner.....
...............................................
Kongtrul contends that a person endowed with the first two kinds of
confidence should study the tantras and their commentaries. Once having
gained a sound understanding of the contents, the student should receive
an authentic initiation by which he or she assumes tantric pledges and vows.
The person is then ready to begin to cultivate the two phases of tantric practice:
the phase of creation and that of completion. Thus, all the stages of the
tantric path are contained in two steps: first, receiving initiation to bring
oneself to spiritual maturity and assume tantric pledges; and second, the
main element of the practice, cultivating the two phases of the path. It is by
following these two steps that one achieves the third kind of confidence.
TOK Book 8 part 3.
Translators introduction

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, I want Kongtrul's actual words, not what some introduction states. You asserted this was Kongtrul's position. As far as I can tell, this is not that.


florin said:
Ok.
Here. Maybe you will be satisfied now.
Taken directly from the text itself.

Furthermore, such an individual must have three types of confidence,
the first two of which are the prerequisites for the third: [one,] confidence in what one is embarking upon, the profound tantra of the mantra way, which is the condition related to one’s focus; [two,] confidence in the person who leads one onto the path, a magnificent master, the causal condition;
and [three], based on those two, confidence in oneself as a practitioner of the path.
--------------
That being the case, a person who possesses the [first] two types of confidence
initially must learn the meaning of tantra. He or she therefore studies
the tantras and their commentaries. Once a sound understanding has
been achieved, that student should next begin cultivation of the two phases
[of practice] of the meaning of tantra, the precondition for which is to
receive, in an appropriate manner, an authentic initiation and to assume
properly the pledges and vows. All the stages of the mantric path are thereby
included in [two steps]: first, receiving an initiation to ripen oneself and assuming
pledges; then, the main element [of the practice], the cultivation of
the two phases of the path that effects liberation.

Book six part 4 chapter 11 " The Path".

Malcolm wrote:
I am still not sure about this. One reason is that to study the tantras and commentaries means a. One is literate, still rare in Tibet in 19th century; b. Has access to texts. C. Most unlikely, a literate person in in Tibet who has never ever received any empowerment. D. Each section of a major empowerment qualifies one to study different kinds of tantras, and not before. So this may indeed be JK’s position, but there is a lot of context missing here. So I still think it not sound advice, considering what the tantras themselves say about such matters.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Dan74 said:
Given the foregoing, I doubt that any sensible Trump supporter would wade into this thread, but you could visit DW-E and copy and paste Seth Rich's posts here.

Malcolm wrote:
Is there such a thing as a sensible vote for Trump? Tell us what that would look like.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 9:03 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
smcj said:
By chance I came across this video. It’s Mingyur R presiding over a western style debate about whether ngakpa lamas can drink alcohol.


Malcolm wrote:
Not only can we, we have to.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 9:02 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:



tobes said:
With respect, you assert a 'fundamental distinction' when in reality there are many degrees of subtle interpenetration.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.

tobes said:
The non-divisibility between Madhyamaka and Mahamudra is also very often asserted; in Kagyu-Mahamudra texts as well as by living masters of this tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka does not have empowerments, or introduction, etc.

tobes said:
In practice...the hard contradictions of the kind you are proposing are in fact the very thing to be wary of.

Malcolm wrote:
Not if you actually understand the distinction between sūtra and tantra.

tobes said:
Of course, as we all know, the root of this tradition is the physician of Dagpo himself who unified Kadampa gradualism with tantric Mahamudra. Unified. Not: taught them to be fundamentally distinct. That was his unique contribution to Buddha-Dharma, and Kagyu Mahamudra unfolds from this root.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really, but there is no point in debating it with you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 8:55 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
florin said:
Kongtrul is very clear on this point.
Students who have faith and confidence in tantra and strong devotion to the vajra master should get aquatinted with tantras and the commentaries to develop clear understanding of the contents then receive the initiation.

Malcolm wrote:
Citation please. And I doubt this refers to people who have never received any empowerment at all. But we will see when you explain to us where you found this.


florin said:
" Kongtrul further points out that a practitioner of tantra must have three
kinds of confidence: confidence in the profound path of tantra upon
which one embarks; confidence in the person who leads one on the path,
an authentic master; and confidence in oneself as a practitioner.....
...............................................
Kongtrul contends that a person endowed with the first two kinds of
confidence should study the tantras and their commentaries. Once having
gained a sound understanding of the contents, the student should receive
an authentic initiation by which he or she assumes tantric pledges and vows.
The person is then ready to begin to cultivate the two phases of tantric practice:
the phase of creation and that of completion. Thus, all the stages of the
tantric path are contained in two steps: first, receiving initiation to bring
oneself to spiritual maturity and assume tantric pledges; and second, the
main element of the practice, cultivating the two phases of the path. It is by
following these two steps that one achieves the third kind of confidence.
TOK Book 8 part 3.
Translators introduction

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, I want Kongtrul's actual words, not what some introduction states. You asserted this was Kongtrul's position. As far as I can tell, this is not that.


