﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
florin said:
Kongtrul is very clear on this point.
Students who have faith and confidence in tantra and strong devotion to the vajra master should get aquatinted with tantras and the commentaries to develop clear understanding of the contents then receive the initiation.

Malcolm wrote:
Citation please. And I doubt this refers to people who have never received any empowerment at all. But we will see when you explain to us where you found this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: Celebrity Culture
Content:


Brunelleschi said:
Because for me it's pointless. I don't have to show them respect. Sports is fun - but it's for kids. These athletes don't deserve 1/10 of what they're earning and what I'd really like to see is the state appropriate their fortunes and give it to the needy.

SteRo said:
Ok then we have different views here. I consider sports to be healthy and a better pastime than many other things and I think that successful sportsmen may be idols and thus support general health in society. I rejoice if athletes earn much money and are happy and I rejoice even more if they donate money for social projects.

Brunelleschi said:
I doubt there's causality between say amount of sports watched (h) x general health. There's a difference between "earning much money" (like say and MD or an engineer) and making hundreds of millions of dollars. The first is not a problem.

I think I'll end it here.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a correlation however between how much sports one watches and how unhealthy one is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
florin said:
Sure they can.
The advice is that people who are attracted to and have faith in vajrayana should study the tantras and commentaries  before initiation.

Malcolm wrote:
They should not.

I am not sure from whom you heard this advice, but it is bad advice.

Of course these days, everything is published and people are free, but they really should not be reading the Hevajra Tantra, the Guhyasamaja Tantra, the Cakrasamvara Tantra (!), etc., prior to having received empowerment. We have seen already the complete and total misunderstanding of Dzogchen that has resulted from people reading such tantras as the Kun byed rgyal po without transmission, not to mention creation stage practices,  completion stage practices and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:


florin said:
The education and preparation for entering tantra can take the simple form of being advised to study tantras and commentaries to gain a good understanding of the contents then one can proceed to take the empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
That's the point. One cannot study the commentaries and the tantras prior to receiving empowerment.

florin said:
Nobody needs to break their samayas by disclosing the elements and stages of an empowerment but they can generally point people in the direction of various texts and so on.

Malcolm wrote:
That's pretty much breaking samaya, specifically the fifth samaya.

This is why investigating the guru is of utmost importance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Queequeg said:
C'mon, man. We'll give em a chance, and then we can skewer them.
LOL

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know man, I am not sure you can have a good faith discussion with someone who basically wants to eat your brains:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Queequeg said:
Their complaint seems to be that people who disagree with them do not engage in good faith discussions.

Malcolm wrote:
What a joke. Trumpsters cannot have good faith discussions because they believe all the lies this man has spewed. If they don't believe the lies, they still are incapable of good faith discussions because they tolerate his lies, his graft, and his corruption.

Their point of view, simply put, is that the guy is in office, so shut the f*&^ up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
smcj said:
There’s a pervasive belief (or attitude?) among Westerners that a Vajrayana practitioner can dispense with all that inconvenient Mahayana stuff. I don’t that is correct.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of convenient or inconvenient. They are distinct paths.

Common Mahāyana is based on renunciate conduct and intellectual analysis.

Uncommon Mahāyāna Secret Mantra is based on non-renunciate conduct and experience derived empowerment and practice.

I am not claiming that one should cease to study sūtrayāna material. I am claiming however, that to deprive people of access to Vajrayāna methods is simply a gross misunderstanding. Why? Because Vajrayāna is self-sufficient method of realizing the paths and stages to buddhahood, and moreover,  it is a much more rapid path than any path sūtrayāna has to offer. My understanding of sūtra material is a result of practicing Vajrayāna, not the other way around. I did not begin to genuinely understand Madhyamaka and Abhidharma for example, until after I had been practicing sadhana practice for some years. But on the other hand, I was a highly motivated student. Not everyone is very highly motivated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 29th, 2020 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Queequeg said:
We have some Trump supporters here at DW - I'd love to hear your views on Trump's business dealings while in office. For instance, airforce layovers at his resort in Scotland, and all the dignitaries who have his Washington hotel booked up...

Malcolm wrote:
Are you kidding, everything the Furher does is for god and country.

Queequeg said:
Fellas, most of us fall in the opposition or resist camp, but, let's give them a chance to explain.

Putative responders: you will likely get a hostile response, but really, this needs to be answered if you really expect this president to get the respect many of you demand.

Malcolm wrote:
Explain what? Eight years of racist bullshit about Obama? Explain three years of the most amazing graft, corruption, self-dealing, and political malfeasance this country has never seen?

Sure, let them reply, even though they have nothing but stupid red hats and resentment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:


Queequeg said:
It seems someone in the Whitehouse may have leaked details from Bolton's manuscript.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the NYT obtained a copy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Trump Impeachment
Content:
Queequeg said:
We have some Trump supporters here at DW - I'd love to hear your views on Trump's business dealings while in office. For instance, airforce layovers at his resort in Scotland, and all the dignitaries who have his Washington hotel booked up...

Malcolm wrote:
Are you kidding, everything the Furher does is for god and country.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:


tobes said:
I disagree. It depends greatly on the karma of the student. The Dagpo Kagyu has plenty of room for analytical Madhyamaka to help establish the correct view of ground Mahamudra. If one can realise this ground directly right away, great. But generally this is rare, and studying Madhyamaka is prescribed because if taught correctly it does not remain purely on the level of the intellect. i.e. it induces meditative experience and then realisation, in the context of vipashayana.

Malcolm wrote:
The realization of mahāmudra depends on direct introduction, not analysis. Otherwise, your mahāmudra is just perfection of wisdom meditation dressed up in dohas.

tobes said:
Moreover, Kagyu Mahamudra does not privilege non-conceptuality over conceptuality: core Kagyu Mahamudra texts such as Moonbeams are very explicit about this; discursive thought and intellect are also not distinct from ground Mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
"Ground" mahāmudra simply refers to something one has not yet realized, i.e., the nature of the mind. Concepts are not separate from the mind, so of course they are included.


tobes said:
So, I think this aversion to analysis is contrary to the Kagyu presentation of Mahamudra. However, it makes more sense in relation to the Indian tradition; Saraha, Maitripa etc.

Malcolm wrote:
The aversion to analysis is different than aversion to concepts. Someone who has never received any kind of introduction must depend on analysis. But this person is also not practicing mahāmudra. The fundamental distinction between mahāmudra practice and sūtrayāna practice must be introduction at the time of empowerment, otherwise the word, mahāmudra, is quite meaningless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
If someone received empowerment, etc., from a qualified master, they've entered Vajrayāna.

florin said:
There is the case where one is present at an empowerment, has the wish to take the empowerment, participates in the empowerment but has no education with respect to what actually happens. I believe that the empowerment was not taken due to lack of understanding of what takes place and lack of knowledge of the meaning of the symbols presented.

Malcolm wrote:
You can believe that if you want, but it isn't true.

florin said:
To these days there is constant confusion about what actually happens during empowerments. Some part of the blame lies with people organising empowerments and not providing sufficient education about said process before it actually happens.

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot educate people about what happens in an empowerment before the empowerment. If you do, you are breaking your own samaya. For example, the preparation day exists precisely so that people are readied to hear the secrets spoken during an empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Partisanship and the loss of scruple
Content:


Dan74 said:
The Trump Derangement Syndrome is also a thing

Malcolm wrote:
No it isn't.

Dan74 said:
PS I'm not saying the politicians and the media in other places act with integrity, but it seems to me the lack of scruple is nowhere (that I know of) more blatant than in the US...

Malcolm wrote:
Ummmm, Russia?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 6:27 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
I understand the need to double check that Vajrayana is grounded in Sutrayana Mahayna, but ditching Vajrayana altogether?

Malcolm wrote:
I'd rather ditch sūtra. Vajrayāna is self-sufficient. Sūtrayāna does not bring people to total liberation anymore. It hasn't for a thousand years+. And it never brought people to liberation in a single lifetime, soup to nuts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:


florin said:
Yes, quite possibly that after this few decades long experiment, people who appeared to enter Vajrayana in the end haven’t entered at all.

Malcolm wrote:
If someone received empowerment, etc., from a qualified master, they've entered Vajrayāna.

florin said:
So probably on this basis, the people who run the programs these days, decided that practitioners  would gain more benefit by focusing on sutra related methods and reflections.

Malcolm wrote:
That might be true of Kagyus and Gelugs, who base themselves on a more Lam rim approach. It is definitely not true of Sakyapas and Nyingmapas, who have more confidence in directly introducing fortunate people to Vajrayāna methods, including Dzogchen.

florin said:
I have friends who have done several retreats in a row and there is lots to be said about everything.

Malcolm wrote:
Whether people are successful or not in a Vajrayāna retreat depends on them. If one recites mantras, etc. in a state of distraction, one will make little progress. On the other hand, even if someone does not practice, but merely maintains samaya, it is said in all tantras they attain buddhahood in 16 lifetimes at the outside. This is impossible in sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
florin said:
which i think is very positive and more relatable.

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on the person. Some people are less fortunate and do not have the capacity to enter Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
smcj said:
I can’t source it here, but elsewhere I’ve quoted Thrangu R saying that the difference between Shentong view and Mahamudra view is that once you clearly can see the Perfect Nature, Mahamudra view allows you to retroactively see it in all phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
That's fine. It doesn't really matter. All this is just a bunch words being slung about anyway. Gzhan stong as Madhyamaka is just another intellectual approach. Mahāmudra is based on an experiential view, which is not based on analysis.

You will never get to Mahāmudra through analytical madhyamaka, no matter whether it is Jonang/Kagyu, Gelug, or Sakya/Nyingma style.

But I must have pointed that out over a hundred times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Karmapa VIII & Buddha Nature (Self?) video
Content:
smcj said:
And, apropos of this thread, a little Buddha Nature/Shentong paradigm could correct the “it’s all just my mind” prejudice.

Malcolm wrote:
Unlikely. It just creates another intellectual concept (and just for the record, gzhan stong is the most intellectual madhyamaka tradition in Tibet: it has to be, since it involves itself in so many far fetched arguments).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Celebrity Culture
Content:


Brunelleschi said:
Respectfully disagree - I'd say there are degrees of Samsara.

Malcolm wrote:
There are degrees of suffering in samsara, but there are no degrees of samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 27th, 2020 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/F/104

There are two additional vehicles supposedly leading to rebirth as 1) people, and 2) gods. I don't know where the tradition of these vehicles comes from, maybe Tiāntāi?

I'm trying to figure out what the Tung-ch’un is, but Wades-Giles is a travesty.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha sometimes talks about the vehicle of devas and humans, but this is reference to practicing the four brahmaviharas and their result, birth in higher realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 27th, 2020 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Coronavirus outbreak in China
Content:
FromTheEarth said:
Thank you all for your prayers and concerns.
Anyways, speaking to some of my family members about it, there appears to be an obvious pattern of many diseases being possibly directly triggered from the massive slaughters of animals for meat consumption. Recent examples include: mad cow disease, SARS outbreak, swine flu, chicken avian flu... etc. Maybe that is a big hint / Karma forces at play here?
I just watched netflix documentary s02e04 The Next Pandemic, and would personally recommend it.
Regarding the coronavirus outbreak this time, it probably started with people consuming the so-called "bush-meat," e.g., bats, snakes. However, the main cause was that the municipal and provincial governments intentionally withheld information from the public and the central authorities to the extent that once the outsiders discovered the truth, it has already been too late to contain the spread of the disease.
Quarantining a city of 11 million people is unprecedented. But at this moment, this measure will not be enough. The peak of outbreaks is expected to be late Feb to early Mar.

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently, like SARS, this came from eating civits, which in turn eat bats. Not snakes. This virus needs a warm-blooded host to survive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 27th, 2020 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Five vehicles? That's just too many. It's like the 52-something grounds of the bodhisattva in Tiāntāi. I used to think tantra was excessive because of their ten or so extra grounds after the ground of the cloud of dharma, but boy was I surprised to find that 52 or 42 number.

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, three, actually. Thirteen bhumis. In Dzogchen, sometimes, 16 bhumis are discussed. And in some anuyoga presentations, there are 21 bhumis. However, in general, there are only thirteen  bhumis in Vajrayāna, generally speaking.

In terms of vehicles, in common Mahāyāna there are only śrāvaka, pratyekabuddha, and bodhisattva vehicles, no fourth or fifth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 27th, 2020 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Daily Lungta Recitation by Mipham.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This mantra is not transliterated correctly:

ཨོཾ་བྷུར་བྷུ་བ་སྭཿ
om bhur bhuwa sa
oṃ bhurbhuva svaḥ

This is the first part of the Vedic Gyatri mantra and should be " Oṃ bhūr bhūva suvaḥ," it means roughly "auspicious, the ground, below the ground. and the heavens."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 26th, 2020 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Solar Power Scam
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Supposedly these mobile solar generators supply much needed emergency power.  This specific operation turned out to also be a Ponzi scheme!

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edca/pr/top-executives-plead-guilty-participating-billion-dollar-ponzi-scheme-biggest-criminal

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this is nothing like the corporate socialism the US oil industry benefits from to the tune of 4.6 billion a year. Talk about a scam. And when we talk about indirect subsidies to all fossile fuel, this amount rises to $649 billion, more than the 2015 Pentagon budget.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fossil-fuel-subsidies-pentagon-spending-imf-report-833035/

This means that every family (assuming two parents, two kids) in the US is shouldering  is shouldering nearly eight thousand dollars a year in hidden costs our government conceals in fuel production subsidies. Talk about scams. Those folks in Cali are lightweights, petty thieves by comparison.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 26th, 2020 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: Tara Mandala Open Webcast Transmission with Dorje Lopön Chandra Easton (Riwo Sangchöd, Chöd, Green Tara)
Content:
Hazel said:
Thank you all for your responses.
Reading up on it, it looks like I inadvertently took tantric vows when doing their green Tara web course, implicitly. Given all the uncertainties I've had about Tara Mandala and my usual bad habit of doubting teachers (which I'm actively working on breaking), it sounds like I've broken said vows too. Ugh.

Malcolm wrote:
If you have never had any kind of major empowerment, or a Dzogchen empowerment, you have no samaya at all. You cannot receive samaya from a lung alone.

Hazel said:
What makes an empowerment "major"? The practice was said to be of the second highest class. There was a lung then a month or two of online webcasts explaining the practice. There was no repeating/saying anything during any of it, which is my previous understand of a lung vs an empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
A major empowerment generally lasts two days. However, there are shorter Nyingma empowerments rooted in system of Dzogchen, which also serve as "ripening" empowerments. If you have never attended any of these, you do not have any samaya at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 26th, 2020 at 5:54 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:
Queequeg said:
gut says resist. brain says its futile.

justsit said:
So 1984 is here - what's next, Fahrenheit 451? Edit/delete the online texts, burn the books...

Malcolm wrote:
Trump and co. already started with NASA, EPA, USDA, and other websites that hold inconvenient bits of science.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 26th, 2020 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: do kleshas that arent followed by negative actions create karma
Content:
TMT said:
This is my first post. I hope I chose the right sub forum. Anyway so my question is according to your understanding, do kleshas always precede karma,

Malcolm wrote:
Kleshas always precede nonvirtuous karma. Their opposite always precedes virtuous karma. As Nāgārjuna states in the Ratnavali:

The actions generated from these three,
desire, hatred and ignorance, are nonvirtuous.
The actions generated from these three,
absence of desire and hatred, and absence of ignorance are
virtuous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 26th, 2020 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Tara Mandala Open Webcast Transmission with Dorje Lopön Chandra Easton (Riwo Sangchöd, Chöd, Green Tara)
Content:
Hazel said:
Reading up on it, it looks like I inadvertently took tantric vows when doing their green Tara web course, implicitly. Given all the uncertainties I've had about Tara Mandala and my usual bad habit of doubting teachers (which I'm actively working on breaking), it sounds like I've broken said vows too. Ugh.

Malcolm wrote:
If you have never had any kind of major empowerment, or a Dzogchen empowerment, you have no samaya at all. You cannot receive samaya from a lung alone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 26th, 2020 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:


Queequeg said:
(I've let myself start speculating along these lines lately, but the idea of becoming a surveillance state and the surrender of democracy that I am afraid would be required to pursue many of those policies state gives me great pause. Seeing as we may well be headed down that road anyway...)

Malcolm wrote:
We are already there, it is just it is privatized police state, where millions of idiots put Ring cameras everywhere for "security."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 25th, 2020 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: What Is just (((IS)))
Content:


Relinquish said:
Exactly WHAT It is can NEVER be known.

Malcolm wrote:
Then IT is POINTLESS to TALK about IT.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 25th, 2020 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Iconic Phrase 'SHORT MOMENTS, MANY TIMES' Copyrighted?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I predict that when the IRS finally gets around to it, they are going to sue her for illegally using a 510c3 educational non-profit in order to evade taxes. She could go to jail.

https://abalancedviewofbalancedview.wordpress.com/2018/02/27/the-secret-of-balanced-view-finances-anthony/

This guy exposes clear fraud in her booking keeping.

Nemo said:
I'm glad I'm in Canada and can call her an asshole and tax cheat.

Malcolm wrote:
You can call her that in the US too. We do not have the strict libel laws they have in the UK.


Nemo said:
But charities are one of the main forms of money laundering now. It's so bad Canada's billionaire Minister of Finance has a charity that creates charities just for this purpose called the Toronto Foundation. So even making the fake charity is tax deductible. Then the main game is giving all your income to the charity who loans you money at interest every year. After 7 years they wipe the loans with the tax records. Though that is getting harder. You simply never pay them back and when you die the charity goes to your children who become the new directors.

Malcolm wrote:
Nice scam.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 25th, 2020 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation - Split from Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:


tkp67 said:
Technology does not have to be embedded to have impact. 3rd world countries are suffering from climate change even though they aren't contributing to that dynamic.

Malcolm wrote:
Now you are changing the subject.


tkp67 said:
I can gladly provide references and I can unpack the impact of the tech/industrial footprint as well.


Malcolm wrote:
As can I. But it depends on what you mean by "technology." If you mean a digging stick, even crows have technology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 25th, 2020 at 6:33 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation - Split from Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:



tkp67 said:
Depending on age you might recall all these times distinctly having experienced them. Yet what percentage of the population has not because they were born into a technology age? So many people simple don't see the world from the same "lens" (paradigm). Their view might simply be very relative.

Malcolm wrote:
Most people on the planet still are not in the technological age. This is mostly a first world problem.

tkp67 said:
It is estimated that over 60% of the worlds population has a smart phone. FWIW Industrial/technological impact mentioned are felt by all. 3rd world is far from immune of the costs of technology as well. Or the benefits and it seems intent and desire go a long way to shaping outcome.

Malcolm wrote:
Having a smart phone does not mean one is living in the grip of technological civilization. Many people have smart phones in places where many of the capabilities of smart phones cannot be harnessed due to lack of infrastructure and so on. Technology is something into which one must be embedded, economically and socially.

There are approximately 5 billion people with mobile devices, and approx 3 billion have smart phones, mainly in Europe, North America, and Asia. World population is 7.7 billion. So this is about 38.97%, not 60. Thus, most people are not living it large with Apple, Google, and Facebook.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 25th, 2020 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: Cultural Appropriation - Split from Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:



tkp67 said:
Depending on age you might recall all these times distinctly having experienced them. Yet what percentage of the population has not because they were born into a technology age? So many people simple don't see the world from the same "lens" (paradigm). Their view might simply be very relative.

Malcolm wrote:
Most people on the planet still are not in the technological age. This is mostly a first world problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 25th, 2020 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Shiva said:
Anyhow I still thing Chogyal Namkhai Norbu did not nominate a formal successor for a reason...

Malcolm wrote:
He already had indicated his son, daughter, and SMS teachers, etc., would be responsible for continuing the DC.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 25th, 2020 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Shiva said:
Formal transmissions are very problematic. It is true, though, that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche always defended that system and criticized western Dzogchen yogis and yoginis whom rejected the need of those same formal transmissions.

Josef said:
There is no such thing as a Dzogchen yogi who has not received transmission.

Shiva said:
One thing is a transmission (any) and another is a "formal ritual-like" transmission. Not all transmissions need to be done with the guru holding a Vajra... With my comment, I was referring to the second kind in which you are dependant upon having a living master to perform it.

Malcolm wrote:
The only kind of transmission there is, is from a living master to student.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 25th, 2020 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
I don't expect everyone on the left to be a militant socialist, I don't fit that bill myself, but really the left of today has been neutered by this stuff IMO. The sense of justice and some form equality (we can debate which kind) as being a common good is simply not there. Or to be more accurate, the liberal identity politics left sees oppressive power relationships only in a "cultural" sense, but not in an economic one.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no Left left in America. Why? Because there is no coherent workers movement. Liberal, bourgeois intellectual fads are not "Left" at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 25th, 2020 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Tara Mandala Open Webcast Transmission with Dorje Lopön Chandra Easton (Riwo Sangchöd, Chöd, Green Tara)
Content:


Mantrik said:
It could simply be that he forgot her when giving that list in 2016. Alternatively he may have authorised Tsultrim Allione to train teachers of his Chod and for her to authorise them to give the empowerment. After all, someone has to do so or it dies. I'm just a bit cautious around these dharma businesses.

Malcolm wrote:
Tsultrim met with ChNN after this point. Tsultrim is legit, and so is Candra. I know them both, the former quite well, and the latter only slightly. Nevertheless, this is all perfectly fine. Nothing to see here. Move along.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 24th, 2020 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:


tkp67 said:
It rightly evokes ignorance because Shakyamuni's enlightenment is that complex...

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know about that:

Profound, free from proliferation, luminous, uncompounded— 
I have attained an ambrosial Dharma.

Buddhahood is utterly simple, its the most simple thing in the universe. We, on the other hand are complex, and this is what prevents us from seeing our own nature clearly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 24th, 2020 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
If they are accusing someone of "culturally appropriating" something which has always been trans cultural in the first place, they should do more study and rectify their own ignorance about the origins of Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
This.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 24th, 2020 at 5:06 AM
Title: Cultural Appropriation - Split from Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
dharmapdx said:
Another factor to take into account is that the political scene in this country is elitist and clique in all regards. I believe the term is “tribalism.” If it sounds odd that I, a white American male, basically have to keep my Buddhist practice to myself as a solitary and independent practitioner, keep in mind the draconianly-PC world we are living in now. I no longer wear my Buddhist beads — Juzu blessed by a Nichiren Shu priest — in public lest I be accused of “cultural appropriation” (I actually got dirty looks from an Asian woman for my beads), and the dirty/hostile look I got from a Hawaiian woman at an SGI meeting (when she saw that I have gongyo memorized, with correct accent to boot; she was trembling with rage) was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I simply don’t dare to try to participate in a Buddhist community anymore. Too traumatizing. My Buddhist practice is successful, but at this point it is virtually a secret practice.

Malcolm wrote:
There are only two kinds of problems: my problem and not my problem. The issues you list about are definitely not your problem. If you want to wear your māla, then you should. If you can recite Nicherin liturgy with a good accent, go for it. In Tibetan Buddhism, no one is accusing anyone of cultural appropriation, in fact Tibetans can't get westerns dressed up in Tibetan outfits and accouterments fast enough it seems. The Tibetans all think it is a great thing:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 24th, 2020 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so elitist and cliquey?
Content:
明安 Myoan said:
Regarding triumphalism...

Malcolm wrote:
Everyone who enters the Dharma will attain buddhahood eventually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 24th, 2020 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:


Nemo said:
I think you had already drunk deep from the river of hate in this world before Trump came to power. A subject on which I am the expert.

Malcolm wrote:
You means me personally? No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 24th, 2020 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I wouldn't worry. No one is getting impeached anyways, regardless of whether they deserved it.

conebeckham said:
Oh for Pete's sake.

Trump has been impeached.  The House has sole authority over impeachment, regardless of what happens, or doesn't, in the Senate.  Clinton was impeached.

Queequeg said:
Yes. For those who don't understand what is happening...

A sitting president cannot be criminally prosecuted.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a DOJ opinion, it has never been tested in the courts.


Queequeg said:
Trump will likely try the same sort of play.



Malcolm wrote:
Yes, following the examples of Xi and Putin.

Queequeg said:
Its a circus. Its fascinating to watch the US Constitution go through this stress test and see how its carried out.

Malcolm wrote:
A republic, if we can keep it, though I increasingly have my doubts.

We live at the beginning of the age of weapons, it is not inconceivable that this country could go up in flames within the next 20 years as result of Trump, whether he is removed through impeachment or though the next election, or not. He has ignited the spark of racism and nationalism, the likes of which we have not seen since the 1850's and the 1930's in this country.

In the meantime, contemplating New Zealand as a possible refuge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Sādhaka said:
As is the District of Columbia, by way of the City of London; no?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Where did you get this idea?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 9:57 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Nemo said:
I didn't have to kill for those empires nor am I under their thumb. I am paid remarkably well for my service but wish it had been under more honourable circumstances.

Malcolm wrote:
Your not under America’s thumb either; you are a subject of the English crown.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 7:18 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Nemo said:
War criminals are war criminals in the same way serial killers are serial killers.

Malcolm wrote:
You complain a lot about American presidents, but l have not heard one peep from you about the Chinese locking up a million Uighurs (in addition toithe Tibetans they murder regularly. Or about Russia engaging in an war in Ukraine, or Modi, etc. I could go on, but what's the point? We get it, you hate America. You're not so concerned with the criminality of other world leaders.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 6:16 AM
Title: Re: Madhyamaka < quantum mechanics?
Content:
smcj said:
It is for the ultimate truth that correct analysis is applied to.
So if the system of logic used to establish  “correct analysis” is itself shown to be flawed, then the conclusions that come from it are incorrect. Right? Well, it's not there is no causality, it's that we do not understand the causality.
Nope. There is no causality. There’s only probability.



Malcolm wrote:
Causality is a convention. In reality, there is never a single cause for a given entity, for example a sprout. One can call a seed the "cause of the sprout," but this assertion does not actually bear analysis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Which heavens correspond
Content:
jhanapeacock said:
that`s why a pureland would be the only option if we take those eternalist claims literally.

Malcolm wrote:
But we don't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:
Simon E. said:
How about we answer in our own way rather than judge the replies of others?

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: My explanation of emptiness
Content:


tkp67 said:
He [the Buddha] also taught enlightenment of insentient objects which gives meaning to the very point I am posing.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the Buddha did not teach this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:
Vasana said:
It doesn't need a mixer, but it does need diverse ways of communicating according to the inclinations of those being spoken to.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. For example, if someone needs an external savior, or a creator god, or a universal overmind, etc., there is nothing we can say to such a person that will give them solace because there is no external savior, no creator, and no overmind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:
Vasana said:
Yup - What's neutral for us might not come across as such for others. Hence the difficulty. This isn't advocating sugar coating, but if the occasion calls for it can be nice to have a mixer with your shot instead of having it straight. You'll still get tipsy.

Malcolm wrote:
I did not say we had to be neutral. I just said we should be straightforward. The Dharma does not need a mixer, it is best imbibed neat, no chaser.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:



Vasana said:
Sure, I'm in agreement with the need to not feed people's misconceptions but there are ways of doing it that magnetize and spark people's drive to learn, discover and ask and there are ways that cause some to feel defensive, shut down and attacked even. Lacking the tone and other inter-personal subtleties of real life interactions, online debates can actually be quite intimidating and adrenaline + cortisol fueling. Even if you or others are perfectly relaxed when posting, there's no guarantee new brigh eyed members ( perhaps on their first forum) always will be. You're obviously one of the most qualified people on here to teach and straighten up misconceptions and I'm not here to suggest you or anyone go about things differently as like JD pointed out, sometimes it's exactly what is needed. But with that said, different people have different inclinations, to teachings, teachings, people in generation and style. I think there's possible benefit in learning to 'read the room' and get an impression of the tone of the OP and having that inform our replies more. I dont want to make it seem like a bigger deal than it actually is since I get it might not seem like this for others and it could be a non-issue in the grand scheme of dharmic interactions.

Malcolm wrote:
It is better to be straight with people.

Johnny Dangerous said:
There are a lot of different ways to be straight with people though, that covers a wide range of approaches.

Malcolm wrote:
Say what you mean, directly, with no agenda. One mustn't concern oneself with other people's projections.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Pero said:
Well, that is pretty much what US presidents are.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. Warlords generally seize power violently.

Pero said:
Was using it loosely but since you mentioned this I wonder if one couldn't call the election process violent too.

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all. People seem to forget that the US initiated the first peaceful transition of power when Washington stepped down as president. Since then, many other nations have managed to follow suit. This is one of the great achievements of American Democracy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A person asked a question about their experience viz, "realization," and discovered their realization does not fall within the range of right view in Buddhadharma. What's the problem?

It's just obvious there is no room in Buddhadharma for the concept that there is one universal consciousness, just as there is no room in Buddhadharma for the concept of a creator god.  What are we supposed to do? Coddle people's misconceptions in hope that if we are sufficiently gentle they will somehow wake up from their misonconceptions. No. It is better to be honest and direct with people from the start. We don't need people to become Buddhists. We need them to understand what Dharma is and what Dharma is not. Then they can make an informed choice about what path to follow.

Vasana said:
Sure, I'm in agreement with the need to not feed people's misconceptions but there are ways of doing it that magnetize and spark people's drive to learn, discover and ask and there are ways that cause some to feel defensive, shut down and attacked even. Lacking the tone and other inter-personal subtleties of real life interactions, online debates can actually be quite intimidating and adrenaline + cortisol fueling. Even if you or others are perfectly relaxed when posting, there's no guarantee new brigh eyed members ( perhaps on their first forum) always will be. You're obviously one of the most qualified people on here to teach and straighten up misconceptions and I'm not here to suggest you or anyone go about things differently as like JD pointed out, sometimes it's exactly what is needed. But with that said, different people have different inclinations, to teachings, teachings, people in generation and style. I think there's possible benefit in learning to 'read the room' and get an impression of the tone of the OP and having that inform our replies more. I dont want to make it seem like a bigger deal than it actually is since I get it might not seem like this for others and it could be a non-issue in the grand scheme of dharmic interactions.

Malcolm wrote:
It is better to be straight with people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Pero said:
Well, that is pretty much what US presidents are.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. Warlords generally seize power violently.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Issues with ending a friendship
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Other than that, what is the spiritually productive way to approach this kind of situation?

Malcolm wrote:
As Shantideva says, one should avoid being intimate with childish people. Be polite, but disengage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
Obama would not be called "a great" by these people, numerous and diverse as they be, if he lived at the time of Alexander.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't vote for Obama round 2 because of his escalation of drone strikes and so on. Still not shedding any tears over the Alwaki killing. On the other hand, shit never ends when you kill people. But this is samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:


Nemo said:
So rules only apply when you want them to and are not universal.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't say it was lawful. I said I wasn't shedding any tears over it.

Nemo said:
You didn't explain the murder of Alwaki's 16 year old son BTW.

Malcolm wrote:
What's there to explain?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Wisdom Academy - Moved from Tibetan Forum
Content:
Misty said:
In explaining the origin of suffering in detail, does Dzochen practice bring into observation the process of suffering, showing that first subtle footing and its progression? In DZochen practice, is it possible to observe this process in action?

Does the practice of seeing, recognizing and understanding this process, in itself, bring relief from suffering or is something else needed?
In seeing this process, is this where bodhichitta is naturally present?

Johnny Dangerous said:
Check out Myriad Worlds by Jamgon Kongtrul if you want a blow by blow, as one example.. not easy reading but it's pretty cool.

Malcolm wrote:
Not the best account, IMO. Better to read the Treasury of Genuine Meaning or Buddhahood in this Life.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Nemo said:
Obama literally extrajudicially murdered American citizens abroad.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, you mean that when Obama ordered that terrorist guy who advocated murdering fellow Americans from a perch in Yemen? Not shedding any tears over that one. Anyway, this is irrelevant to the impeachment.


Nemo said:
This public theatre is a joke. If Dems used issues instead of distractions they could win easily, but that would take actual progressive policies their corporate owners would not allow. If they force out Bernie again Trump would likely win a second term.

Malcolm wrote:
Seems to me you are pointing a finger at the wrong party.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:
Vasana said:
On the one hand I get why more experienced practitioners set out to unpick newly interested seekers' views and on the other I imagine how differently these kinds of dialogues would pan out face to face, in a 'lower gear', so to speak. But I get that's just my approach and won't be universally correct either; I.e, just giving simple encouragements, book, video and teacher recommendations and focusing on positive reinforcement rather than the more deconstructive integration styles. Making the dharma sound as pallatable and medicinal as possible rather than focussing on the obscurations of any new seeker.( that can come later, once they're suffused enough by the Dharma they already appreciate). A vast library to be explored that will unravel our assumptions gradually and over time.

Early impressions and interactions count a lot for some people and I just wonder to what degree and consequence ( if any) we move a bit too fast and heavy when speaking to new members.

(Bit of a meta-duscussion in this post but hopefully it contributes something)

Malcolm wrote:
A person asked a question about their experience viz, "realization," and discovered their realization does not fall within the range of right view in Buddhadharma. What's the problem?

It's just obvious there is no room in Buddhadharma for the concept that there is one universal consciousness, just as there is no room in Buddhadharma for the concept of a creator god.  What are we supposed to do? Coddle people's misconceptions in hope that if we are sufficiently gentle they will somehow wake up from their misonconceptions. No. It is better to be honest and direct with people from the start. We don't need people to become Buddhists. We need them to understand what Dharma is and what Dharma is not. Then they can make an informed choice about what path to follow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 23rd, 2020 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Nemo said:
no one outside the Dem bubble takes impeachment seriously.

Malcolm wrote:
This is demonstrably untrue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:
Sādhaka said:
(Swedenborg is known to have been a follower of Christian-oriented Masonry)....

On the Lost Word of Masonry (which I believe to be not a “word”, but one letter, hidden in plain-sight this whole time in India, “Tartary, China, and Thibet”):



H.P.B. said:
https://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/isis/iu1-15.htm



Sādhaka said:
Tartary....



Malcolm wrote:
"Buddhist kabalists"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Impeachment Amendment
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Suggest another amendment to the US Constitution in the House section. The House section does not apply only to the office of President. This change below permits a simple majority vote for all other impeachments of judges, members etc.

No President shall be impeached without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

This will slow any future rush to a President's impeachment by a polarized, partisan House vote.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, this will just ensure a corrupt president will be answerable to no one. Why people wish to restore a monarch in America is beyond me.

Anyway, this trial became a sham last night when the senate voted on party lines to refuse to subpoena Bolton, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
madhusudan said:
Yep, Conway's got on opinion - for which he disingenuously claims there is consensus. In fact, it's in dispute. That's why he would write an op-ed in a major national publication - to argue his pov.

In the constantly shifting sands of different charges over the past three years, I'm looking forward to seeing how this drama plays out in an actual trial. If they do indeed have overwhelming evidence, as they claim, everything should be settled satisfactorily for the "resistance". If not, it may be more embarrassing than decrepit Mueller in the last go-around.

Remember when everyone in the "resistance" wholeheartedly believed that President Trump was a secret Russian agent, and Schiff repeatedly claimed to have seen hard evidence of it? That was truly bizarre.

Malcolm wrote:
The senate voted last night for a mock trial, so there won’t be an actual trial since part of the jury is in the pocket of the defendant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:


SuddenRealization said:
I wholeheartedly agree, I have no idea what I'm doing right now and finding what works for me is a hard task. I would say I am enlightened in some small ways but I have a long road to travel before reaching my true potential. I'm not even sure if I need a teacher or if I need to walk my own path. I am going to talk to teachers to see what fits though. And like I said I have a meeting with a buddhist master tomorrow to see where that leads me.

Thank you for your insight!

Malcolm wrote:
A teacher cannot walk your path for you. Their job is to make sure you don't lost in the forest. This is why they are given the name "guide," in Sanskrit, "nāyaka."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:
SuddenRealization said:
Malcolm, I would like to share that while I can see you seriously know your stuff, and I'm happy you're sharing your honest opinions. I am just looking for what fits with me, and while I do agree my views are not compatible with traditional buddhism, I do not believe they are compatible with any major spiritual stream. I just want to find what works for me.
My views are my personal experiences. I do not expect to fit in anywhere 100%, I'm just looking for what works best for me.


Malcolm wrote:
What you need is a teacher. No one, absolutely no one, can figure this shit out by themselves.

Experience without right view is like driving in a strange country with no map, with no idea where you are going.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: Wisdom Academy - Moved from Tibetan Forum
Content:
Misty said:
In explaining the origin of suffering in detail, does Dzochen practice bring into observation the process of suffering, showing that first subtle footing and its progression? In DZochen practice, is it possible to observe this process in action?

Does the practice of seeing, recognizing and understanding this process, in itself, bring relief from suffering or is something else needed?
In seeing this process, is this where bodhichitta is naturally present?

Malcolm wrote:
It explains the whole kit and kaboodle, from beginning to end.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:



Shiva said:
In the time the title that Yarker used for the Rite was “Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry” but was exactly Memphis-Misraim or ar least might be considered a derivative of Memphis-Misraim.
Helena P. Blavatsky is often misreported as having been initiated into Freemasonry. She herself explicitly denies that. The report is based on a misunderstanding of her “Masonic diploma,” which was given to her by John Yarker, the head of one of the additional degree systems, the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry, which included a Rite of Adoption (that is, an associated body that initiated women). The diploma granted her the highest degree of that Rite, Crowned Princess 12º, but was in effect an honor without initiation.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.theosophy.world/encyclopedia/freemasonry

Shiva said:
Well, in fact she once wrote a letter saying that was the 32 degree of a Masonic Rite in England. The diploma that appears online is actually for a 33 degree and also enunciates all the degrees of the Rite beginning with the three Craft Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow-craft and Master Mason).

Malcolm wrote:
It concludes with Crown Princess, that's it, and it explicitly states it is a rite of adoption. I suggest you zoom in on the writing.

No one is disputing Yarker's prestige in Masonry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
She wasn't a regular mason at all, despite the fact that she received the rite of adoption from John Yarker.

Shiva said:
She was not in the Rite of Adoption but in the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraim.
In the time the title that Yarker used for the Rite was “Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry” but was exactly Memphis-Misraim or ar least might be considered a derivative of Memphis-Misraim.
Helena P. Blavatsky is often misreported as having been initiated into Freemasonry. She herself explicitly denies that. The report is based on a misunderstanding of her “Masonic diploma,” which was given to her by John Yarker, the head of one of the additional degree systems, the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry, which included a Rite of Adoption (that is, an associated body that initiated women). The diploma granted her the highest degree of that Rite, Crowned Princess 12º, but was in effect an honor without initiation.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.theosophy.world/encyclopedia/freemasonry


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Iconic Phrase 'SHORT MOMENTS, MANY TIMES' Copyrighted?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I predict that when the IRS finally gets around to it, they are going to sue her for illegally using a 510c3 educational non-profit in order to evade taxes. She could go to jail.

https://abalancedviewofbalancedview.wordpress.com/2018/02/27/the-secret-of-balanced-view-finances-anthony/

This guy exposes clear fraud in her booking keeping.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 22nd, 2020 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Nonetheless, the work that David Reigle and another guy (I can’t remember his name at the moment) are doing on the ‘Book of Dzyan’ and the ‘Book of Kiu-Te’ is kind of interesting; as well as Blavatsky’s connections with the Panchen Lama of her time.

Shiva said:
Let’s note that despite Blavatsky being a Freemason she had not influence within any form of Masonry. The only two rituals that mentioned before, and that I know about as having a Theosophical influence; is through Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater.

Malcolm wrote:
She wasn't a regular mason at all, despite the fact that she received the rite of adoption from John Yarker.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:
Simon E. said:
The London Buddhist Society started out as a section of the Theosophical Society.
A senior member told me a few years ago that it had taken a long time and much effort to rid the Society of the influence of Theosophy. It had taken the deaths of the old guard, including Christmas Humphreys, before a true picture started to emerge of Dharma. Like restoring a masterwork that had become encrusted with extraneous material and layers of obscuring wax and smoke.

Malcolm wrote:
No doubt. Theosophy is the original New Age movement, and the source of it all. New agers never give up bad ideas, but just keep piling more and more "esoteric" crap on top of the old "esoteric" crap, like sea birds filling an Island with guano. The only difference is that guano can be used as fertilizer, whereas nothing but mental weeds grow in New Age manure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Bill Maher on Megexit
Content:
DNS said:
“ Do not believe in something because it is reported. Do not believe in something because it has been practiced by generations or becomes a tradition or part of a culture. Do not believe in something because a scripture says it is so. Do not believe in something believing a god has inspired it. Do not believe in something a teacher tells you to. Do not believe in something because the authorities say it is so. Do not believe in hearsay, rumor, speculative opinion, public opinion, or mere acceptance to logic and inference alone. Help yourself, accept as completely true only that which is praised by the wise and which you test for yourself and know to be good for yourself and others. ”
Kalama Sutta


well wisher said:
Great quote about the Kalama Sutra - I love it!
More free thinking definitely needs to be encouraged. As what might work for one person, might not work for others. And times and circumstances do change as well - the irrefutable sign of impermanence.
And that include religions as well. (including the whole controversial mess about the God-thingy, often unprovable/too obscure/contradictory/abusive ...etc.)

There should be more focus on actual observable empirical evidences and results & well-tested experiences, along with actual benefits vs harms analysis. What can help yourself in beneficial ways, and in conformance with the truth and reality, is the best path.

Malcolm wrote:
Most misunderstood sūtra ever. This is not a charter for free inquiry at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 11:24 PM
Title: Re: Bill Maher on Megexit
Content:
Dan74 said:
Not a huge fan of royalty, but Maher's portrayal is surely nonsense. It is hardly about golden carriages, antiquated traditions and the notion that they are higher than anyone else. They do a lot for their country. It is basically an institution, a job that is inherited and comes with a pretty heavy burden in addition to all the tasks, as we can see. And in all European monarchies, there is overwhelming support for the institution among the voters, AFAIK.

Malcolm wrote:
America is blissfully free of such hereditary nonsense. But of course, we have other nonsense to content with, like a president who would like to be king.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:
Simon E. said:
I never thought the day would come when on this Buddhist forum we would be wasting time on this undharmic and fatuous nonsense. Not even in the lounge.
The woman was a proven charlatan and the whole wobbly edifice of crap she erected should have been junked decades ago by anyone with an interest in Buddhadharma as it is.
There is no excuse for it and there has not been for a century.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, she did provide inspiration for people like Allan Bennet (Bhikku Ananda Metteya) and Aleister Crowley to go to Asia and actually personally investigate Buddhism and Hinduism.

But yes, her books are mostly babble.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:
cjdevries said:
I don't know who the spiritual guide was, he gave off the vibe of a lay person who had come to some level of enlightenment.  He was greatly compassionate and exuded peace and freedom.  That is something IMO that you cannot fake.  I have had other figures come to me in dreams and I can tell right away from their energy when they are inauthentic.  You can't fake the qualities of a genuinely realized practitioner.  They will make you feel their freedom.  This experience I had with this "guide" felt completely real, more real than this life.  It felt like what I've heard near death experiences to feel like.  I wanted to be in his energy forever, it was like being in the presence of a master.  I don't like to talk about my experiences too much, because I find it dissipates some of their energy.  But this guide who came to me made me feel so free that I feel like he wouldn't mind if I shared the experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Why would anyone accept the testimony of dreams of some unknown person on the internet?

Shiva said:
Actually dream-initiations like that are totally acceptable within the Yogic/Vajrayana viewpoint.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.

There are criteria for establishing the validity of such experiences which are described in the intimate instructions of Vajrayāna. You cannot use great tertons as examples, since these people are realized persons already, being bodhisattvas on the paths and stages: for example, my root gurus Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, as well as Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok.

Howver, the dream experience of ordinary people is not to be trusted.

Shiva said:
Clinging to written doctrines and concepts is as illusory as clinging to anything else, even if those doctrines claim to lead towards some spiritual realization. Realization is mainly experiential and the ultimate awareness comes as an actual empirical recognition no through rational analysis.

Malcolm wrote:
All teachings must be subject to rational analysis, as the Buddha said, one must examine teachings, including his,  in the same way a goldsmith evaluates the purity of gold: by weighing, cutting, and burning.

BTW, "empirical recognition" means that such a teaching is evaluated through the consensus of people without special knowledge or special faculties, who verify this or that fact through rational analysis. I think perhaps you mean "direct perception," such as that involved in tasting sugar, which cannot be described to someone who has never tasted anything sweet. Saying "sugar is sweet" means nothing to such a person.

However, even realization may be gauged through the kinds of experiences one has, which is why in Vajrayāna teachings, and even in sūtra, the criteria set out for what a realized person experiences is very carefully mapped in order that people who are practicing the path can distinguish between valid experience and delusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Bernie 2020
Content:


PeterC said:
At the same time, China went in the other direction - they explicitly decided that economic reform should precede political reform, because you couldn't reform an economy with such profound issues against a background of political instability.  Sachs made a fortune giving speeches denouncing this as misguided, doomed to failure, etc. In retrospect, he was flat-out wrong. No professional economist would seriously dispute that the development of China since the 1980s is one of the most remarkable success stories in world economics.

Malcolm wrote:
When you consider cost of labor in China vs. Russia, not that remarkable, but rather, something to be expected.

The main fallacy was and is the assumption that capitalism requires democracy to function well. Neither Russia nor China have the necessary Anglo-American cultural history support a functional democracy in absence of a large middle class. And now China has become completely Orwellian, and we are not far behind -- just look at England's near total surveillance state. We are also moving in that direction. I predict that in 100 years, democracy will be a thing of the past.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
My translation of the Blazing Lamp Tantra and is commentary is the single most exhaustive source on this topic in any language other than Tibetan. It will be published by Wisdom on 4/21/202O, and is at the printers now. You should have the transmission and permission to practice thogal in order to read this book.

Pema Rigdzin said:
Malcolm, when you say "... permission to practice thogal," do you mean one's guru has told one that it's time to begin thogal practice, or just generally having received the relevant empowerment, lung, and instructions to practice thogal at such point as one is deemed ready? Sounds like you're meaning the former, yes?

Malcolm wrote:
The latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen
Content:
yagmort said:
thanks Johnny
Malcolm wrote:
...Control the body, control the channels; control the channels, control the wind; control the wind, control the bindu. This principle applies all systems of Vajrayāna.

yagmort said:
Malcolm, so, if Dzogchen is fine with controlling channels, winds and bindu, what the quoted words of Longchenpa actually imply then? Could you please explain?

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa is referring to how these things are used in Maha and anuyoga. Dzogchen uses a slightly different, albeit, related system of channels and bindus, and the goal is not to place the winds in the central channels and so on. If you want to understand this more clearly, you need to receive thogal teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 10:56 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:
cjdevries said:
I don't know who the spiritual guide was, he gave off the vibe of a lay person who had come to some level of enlightenment.  He was greatly compassionate and exuded peace and freedom.  That is something IMO that you cannot fake.  I have had other figures come to me in dreams and I can tell right away from their energy when they are inauthentic.  You can't fake the qualities of a genuinely realized practitioner.  They will make you feel their freedom.  This experience I had with this "guide" felt completely real, more real than this life.  It felt like what I've heard near death experiences to feel like.  I wanted to be in his energy forever, it was like being in the presence of a master.  I don't like to talk about my experiences too much, because I find it dissipates some of their energy.  But this guide who came to me made me feel so free that I feel like he wouldn't mind if I shared the experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Why would anyone accept the testimony of dreams of some unknown person on the internet?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 10:55 AM
Title: Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles
Content:



greenvajrapani27 said:
I agree with you fully Malcolm but the question I have is did the Nechung Oracle illegally make her an Oracle.

Malcolm wrote:
Since the only report of this comes from this women, I think we can chalk it up to her complete and total misunderstanding.

greenvajrapani27 said:
Malcolm can you explain the photo that you posted on April 14, 2018 of the Nechung Oracle together with the so Mamaki Oracle.

They are both seating about a foot away from each other with there eyes closed in prayer.

It was posted by you on this website regarding the "Nechung Kuten Recognizes Yeye Omileye".

Both are wearing formal Tibetan robes at the Nechung Monastery and the Mamaki Oracle is wearing an Oracle Mirror (Melong) on her chest and a Crown on her head.

The Melong she stated the Nechung Oracle got for her from Nepal and the Mamaki Crown that he got from Mongolia.

Here's the link.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=28332&hilit=mamaki&start=20

How do you interpret the meaning of this photo?

You stated that "I think we can chalk it up to her complete and total misunderstanding.".

This is not how I interpret the meaning of this photo.

The smartest thing that Yeye did was document her "Ceremony" to show proof of what happened that day.

This is no longer a  possible "he says, she says" debate.

This photo speaks a thousand words.

Malcolm wrote:
That photo is from her website and that crown is just a standard five Buddha family crown. There is nothing special about it.
You are making something out of nothing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 8:37 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 8:24 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/20/george-conway-oped-trump-impeachment-answer/?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-h%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

Conservative Lawyer, George Conway:
As for the law, the answer claims, in the most cursory fashion, that the “abuse of power” charge, at least as alleged here, "fails to state an impeachable offense.” It asserts that the abuse of power article “alleges no crimes at all, let alone ‘high Crimes and Misdemeanors,’ as required by the Constitution.” Trump’s brief gets even more explicit: An impeachable offense must involve a “violation of established law” — specifically, “criminal law.”

That’s bogus. Legal scholars and historians agree no statutory crime is required by the Constitution for impeachment and that abuse of power is in fact the essence of impeachability: The English parliamentary history upon which the Framers adopted impeachment makes clear that a public official’s breach of duty to put the public interest first constitutes an impeachable, removable offense.

Even if a statutory crime were required, the House’s charge that Trump tried to solicit a personal benefit (Ukraine’s announcement of an investigation) in exchange for an official act (releasing the security aid) constitutes bribery, both as understood in the Framers’ time and under the federal criminal code today.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 7:45 AM
Title: Bernie 2020
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 7:40 AM
Title: Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles
Content:
greenvajrapani27 said:
Who was it who actually recognized Yeye Omileye as the Mamaki Oracle?

If it wasn't the Dharmapala Dorje Drakden then was it  Thubten Ngodrup the monk who is the Nechung Oracle?

If it was Thubten Ngodrup then he has a lot of explaining to do.

My bet is it wasn't Dorje Drakden who recognized Yeye Omileye as the Mamaki Oracle.

Malcolm wrote:
Mamaki cannot have an oracle. It's impossible.

greenvajrapani27 said:
I agree with you fully Malcolm but the question I have is did the Nechung Oracle illegally make her an Oracle.

Malcolm wrote:
Since the only report of this comes from this women, I think we can chalk it up to her complete and total misunderstanding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 7:25 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:


SuddenRealization said:
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.

Malcolm wrote:
Ignorance is a very spiritual issue. It is the cause of samsara.

SuddenRealization said:
I should correct myself, I do not think ignorance is a spiritual issue because those who are ignorant havent had the chance to connect to their spiritualty.
I do feel sorry for those people just like ive felt sorry for myself for just realizing what my reality is a couple of days ago.

Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of ignorance, "not knowing." Even the highest bodhisattvas, beings that can emanate a billion bodies and work for sentient beings in all possible world systems have a subtle trace of ignorance, which is why we do not call them "buddhas."

By contrast, you've barely dipped your toe in a puddle, let alone the ocean of Dharma.

Of course, you can find all kinds of people who are willing to go along with whatever it is you think you have realized, but they are not helping you, actually.

You might think I am not nice, but actually, I am your best friend.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 7:07 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:


SuddenRealization said:
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.

Malcolm wrote:
Ignorance is a very spiritual issue. It is the cause of samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 7:06 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:


Shiva said:
Dzogchen realization is non-dual awareness; there is no difference. Anyhow, If you disagree with what I am saying that is fine for me as I do not tend to enter on arguments or debates on Dzogchen. Anyhow my suggestion to @SuddenRealization stands, he find it useful or not.

Malcolm wrote:
No, Dzogchen realization is not a "nondual awareness,"  since "awareness" is a mistranslation of the term vidyā/rig pa. Vidyā, in Dzogchen texts, refers to knowledge of one's essence (snying po, garbha). For example, the commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, the main upadesha tantra of the view, states:

Vidyā (rig pa) is (1) the knowledge of names designated by words; (2) the five sciences (rig pa gnas lnga) such as helpful worldly knowledge like healing, arts and crafts, the treatises, and so on; (3) knowledge (rig pa) as a factor of consciousness, such as sharp and dull worldly knowledge and so on; and (4) the knowledge of the essence (snying po) that permeates all, which is free from ignorance (avidyā), unobscured by the obscurations of ignorance, and so on.

If you carefully read Longchenpa, you find out that in the view of Dzogchen, nonduality is a description of the state of all things that is free from any ontic extremes such as being, nonbeing, and so on. But it is certainly is not the state of Paramshiva described in Trika texts, which regard everything as an expression of Shiva, and thus existent and real. In Dzogchen, even Samantabhadra possessed ignorance at the time of the basis.

When one carefully studies Dzogchen teachings under the direction of a qualified person, one discovers that the promiscuous overuse of the term "nondual" anything in Dzogchen is very misleading. I am not denying that the term "nondual" is used in Dzogchen, because of course it is, but it does not mean the same thing as the nondual state discussed in Advaita and Trika. It just isn't. The Dzogchen usage is grounded in Yogacara language, in this respect, and indeed it is the Yogacarins who prove that mindstreams are independent, unique, and differentiated, while at the same time denying external objects.

On the other hand, Dzogchen does not deny external objects, which is why Longchenpa laughs at the idea that they do not exist, and provides an account in the Treasury of Citations about the relationship and difference  between outer objects (rol pa), bodhicitta ()byang chub sems) or the basis (gzhi), and the potential (rtsal) of bodhicitta, which of course is just one's personal state. If you study this carefully, you will understand that calling Dzogchen a nondual system similar to Advaita and Trika is really a huge error. You can understand that again and again, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that the basis, the primordial state is personal, not universal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: Malcolm Smith Q and A
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
It was good stuff, never thought I'd see you mention the Four Noble Truths in a Dzogchen context, like some kind of dirty gradualist;)

Malcolm wrote:
As I pointed out, Dzochen addresses the same existential questions as the rest of Buddhadharma. The main difference is that it actually explains the origin of suffering in detail, other than the" pluck the dart out of the eye" approach of other yānas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:
Shiva said:
Hi! I am a Master Mason from the Grande Loja Legal de Portugal / Grande Loja Regular de Portugal.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Welcome, do you have any interest in Mahayana?  Choosing a screen name like 'Shiva' perhaps not?

Malcolm wrote:
He is a perennialista, an eternalist, in other words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:
Shiva said:
Dear Malcom,

Greetings. You wrote:



SuddenRealization said:
That's good to know, I'm still kind of unsure how to navigate how all of these perspectives came together into this realization. Because of this I would respectfully like to ask how this differs from the buddhist interpretation of reincarnation?

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma, every consciousness is individual, unique, and differentiated. Otherwise, karma, rebirth, and liberation cannot function. In other words, if we are all one consciousness, then we all have the same karma, we all have the same rebirth, and we all have the same liberation all at the same time.

Shiva said:
Your affirmation sounds actually more like the Atman affirmation in Hinduism rather than to the Anatman approach of Buddhism. I understand that the question that @SuddenRealization brings is actually more similar to the idea of Shiva in Kashmir Shaivism but that same approach is non-different from a Dzogchen Realization if not because the symbolic language particular to that Indian tradition which embraces Shiva as a symbol of Dzogchen Trikaya.

Malcolm wrote:
The notion that Dzogchen and Trika are commensurate is a complete error. Dzogchen does not propose an absolute nonduality of any kind. If you think so, you are deeply mistaken and you need to study more, or better yet, study with a qualified teacher who can remove the cataract of your ignorance.

And in general, since every mind stream arises based on its own unique set of causes and conditions, mind streams in Buddhadharma are considered individual, unique, and differentiated. There are reams of Mahāyāna arguments which prove this. These individual, unique, and differentiated do not possess any svabhāva, they are free from extremes, and therefore, the fault of attributing identity to them does not exist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Malcolm Smith Q and A
Content:
AmidaB said:
Thank you Mr. Smith.

https://wisdomexperience.org/livestream-malcolm-smith/

unusually long and exhaustive answers are also here or there, whatever

Malcolm wrote:
Thanks. I am glad you enjoyed the talk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
madhusudan said:
It's sad that people trading on their wisdom would let their TDS flare up in such an embarrassing manner. It's been a 3 year long get-him-at-all-costs impeach the m-fer "resistance" totally partisan secret basement impeachment without actual crimes.

Malcolm wrote:
Impeachments are based on "high" crimes and misdemeanors. Did you forget the misdemeanor part?

In any case, there is no doubt that the Trump Administration is the most corrupt administration in the history of the United States, and he is the most corrupt president ever to be elected.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen
Content:


yagmort said:
1. what is the purpose of dzogchen's tsa-lung/trulkhor practices then? are they really different from 6 yogas in their goals? or Longchenpa criticises all such practices, dzogchen one included, not just sarma ones?

Johnny Dangerous said:
My understanding (via ChNN's teachings, but this accords with other Dzogchen teachers also) is that in Dzogchen Tsa Lung, Pranayamas etc. are simply part of the large collection of practices for one to become familiar with the natural state, and not the more graduated and exacting process found in the six Yogas. So, you do not need to neccessarily develop along the same lines as you do in the Six Yogas, you can just utilize such practices with less ...structure and restriction I guess.

Malcolm wrote:
The principle purpose of Yantra Yoga is to develop capacity in khumbhaka. This in turn is invaluable, because khumbhaka aids one's ability to remain without distraction. Control the body, control the channels; control the channels, control the wind; control the wind, control the bindu. This principle applies all systems of Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 21st, 2020 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Subtle body in Dzogchen
Content:
PSM said:
I am looking for all the resources I can on the subtle body in the Dzogchen teachings & hope people here can help with a few pointers. All kind of sources are welcome. Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
My translation of the Blazing Lamp Tantra and is commentary is the single most exhaustive source on this topic in any language other than Tibetan. It will be published by Wisdom on 4/21/202O, and is at the printers now. You should have the transmission and permission to practice thogal in order to read this book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: My explanation of emptiness
Content:
SteRo said:
"explanation of emptiness" is an oxymoron. Be sure that if you rely on any explanation you are uncurable.

Simon E. said:
Does that include explaining the explanations of others?

SteRo said:
My comment refers to the subject that whants to 'understand' (metaphor) emptiness. You can explain whatever you like - you will never explain emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
I guess Madhyamaka is utterly pointless then.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles
Content:
greenvajrapani27 said:
Who was it who actually recognized Yeye Omileye as the Mamaki Oracle?

If it wasn't the Dharmapala Dorje Drakden then was it  Thubten Ngodrup the monk who is the Nechung Oracle?

If it was Thubten Ngodrup then he has a lot of explaining to do.

My bet is it wasn't Dorje Drakden who recognized Yeye Omileye as the Mamaki Oracle.

Malcolm wrote:
Mamaki cannot have an oracle. It's impossible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 11:05 AM
Title: Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles
Content:
greenvajrapani27 said:
There is a question that needs answering about this whole matter.

If the Nechung Oracle did in fact declare this woman to be the Mamaki Oracle, is she???

I have read that on many occasions in the past if a Tulku or Oracle stated that someone was an Oracle or Tulku that was all it took.

The Tibetan people and monks accepted it on face value.

The Tulku or Oracle were never questioned about it.

So if the Nechung Oracle says Yeye is Mamaki is the deal done?

Must we all now accept the Nechung Oracle's recognition of Yeye Omileye?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: The Dalai Lama has new Oracles
Content:


greenvajrapani27 said:
Today I sent emails to the Office of the Dalai Lama and CTA's Department of Religion about this Mamaki Oracle's claims.

Malcolm wrote:
That is the correct procedure for checking on things like this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:


pema tsultrim said:
But c'mon.

Malcolm wrote:
Um, yeah, that about sums it up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:



SuddenRealization said:
So I think, we are all one conciousness,

Malcolm wrote:
You would be better off in a Hindu forum. No school of Buddhism accepts this.

SuddenRealization said:
That's good to know, I'm still kind of unsure how to navigate how all of these perspectives came together into this realization. Because of this I would respectfully like to ask how this differs from the buddhist interpretation of reincarnation?

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma, every consciousness is individual, unique, and differentiated. Otherwise, karma, rebirth, and liberation cannot function. In other words, if we are all one consciousness, then we all have the same karma, we all have the same rebirth, and we all have the same liberation all at the same time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 2:29 AM
Title: Re: Sudden Realization
Content:



SuddenRealization said:
So I think, we are all one conciousness,

Malcolm wrote:
You would be better off in a Hindu forum. No school of Buddhism accepts this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:




TrimePema said:
While what you said is true, as pointed out above, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about bodhichitta motivation. Specifically, we are talking about actions that appear negative but are in fact done for the purpose of the enlightenment of all sentient beings even though they have negative aspects. We are discussing whether an action with the negative appearance labeled "rape" could ever be done with said bodhichitta motivation or if it is a type of action that can only be done with a negative motivation such as the one you described.

pema tsultrim said:
What about the part of my post that you did not highlight? The part where by definition, rape and other forms of sexual violence are unwanted, non-consentual, forced, coerced, or done while the victim is helpless or too young to know better, and harm the victim emotionally and/or physically (I added on some, but still true)... Does the experience of the object of an action not matter? So if someone believes themselves to doing all the above with a bodhicitta motivation, but the direct recipient is demonstrably harmed and no one else benefits, then that is certainly the most unskillful means imaginable, and the agent is deluding themselves. No bodhicitta there. So I think that point was addressed, if only implicitly.


TrimePema said:
Why did you say "no one else benefits"? You need to re-read my example and then look at these passages again.
Additionally, we are not talking about someone (an actor) "believing themselves to be doing all the above with a bodhichitta motivation" we are talking about someone who absolutely IS doing the above with a bodhichitta motivation.

The discussion is whether or not that's possible and on what grounds it would be or wouldn't be.

Nine Considerations
Here are the relevant passages again:

2. Consideration of the status of beings
If something would benefit lower beings such as animals but harm higher ones such as humans, do not act for the benefit of the lower. Even if an action would harm some animals, if it would benefit humans and the like, then act for the humans’ benefit. The same principle applies with regard to ordinary people and practitioners of Dharma, and among practitioners, with regard to shravakas and bodhisattvas.

3. Consideration of the number of beings
If many beings would be helped and few harmed, you should act to benefit the many. But if many would be harmed and few helped, do not act. If the numbers and the help and harm would be equal, by relying on teachings of skillful methods of protection from harm, you will succeed in helping.

4. Consideration of this and future lives
If it would benefit others in both this life and those to come, you should act to benefit them, by all means. Whenever it would benefit neither life, you should not act. If it would help in this life but harm in future ones, do not act. Even if it would harm in this life, if it would help in the next, being skillful with methods to protect this life from harm you should act to benefit the next.

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty hard to understand how anyone can be benefitted by rape and sexual harassment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
A transgendered person is someone who was born that way, even if they need to have reassignment surgery.
They don’t need to, and the reassignment will not change them to the gender that they think they are. I mean people can do whatever they want, but it certainly should not be subsidized; of course if someone wants to start some charity or gofundme....

Malcolm wrote:
Gender, in the USA, is a legal definition in 48 states, not a biological one.


Sādhaka said:
This is why the Dharma recognizes that there are more than two genders. Modern society should catch up.
There would be basically three then. Male and female; and the third would include: hermaphrodite, intersex, eunuch, and androgynous beings?

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, five: male, female, intersexed people (this is modern name for hermaphrodites); people with same sex orientation, and congenitally-sterile people.

Most transgendered women would be considered eunuchs, from a classical Buddhist point of view. Since all of these gender definitions are defined because of criteria for entering the Sangha, women are left out of it, hence included in same sex orientation in general. However, we could consider transgendered men eunuchs as well. The other two kinds of paṇḍakas, voyeurs and people who are only sexual active with the phases of the moon are not in consideration here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Eminem darkness
Content:
Ayu said:
America cannot get what mass-shooting really means..

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, we get it all right, there simply is no political will to deal with the issue properly because of the Jesus and Guns crowd.

Ayu said:
Sorry, I didn't address you intelligent people as 'America' here but the crowd who votes for guns. Violence is being exposed as a romantic thing. This is only possible as long as people do not get what it means in reality.


Malcolm wrote:
As far as I am concerned, the Second Amendment is obsolete. It was added to the US Constitution (ratified in 1787) with the passing of the Bill of Rights (ratified in 1789), and is not an original part of the constitution. Hence, it is something that can be changed, like any other amendment to the constitution.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 20th, 2020 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: Eminem darkness
Content:
ford_truckin said:
100% pro gun here but I like the video. I think the message is more about mental illness than guns.

Malcolm wrote:
In the 100 Karma Sūtra, the Buddha teaches that whether one possess weapons for afflicted or nonafflicted motivations, it is nonvirtuous and the result is only suffering.

Just something any Buddhist should ponder carefully. Similarly, there are many other teachings of this nature in Mahāyāna sūtras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Are there any schools of Mahayana or Vajrayana that do not use Yogacara "all is mind" type language nor teachings?
Content:


Dgj said:
For example a hypothetical school that teaches that the mind is dependent and temporary,

Malcolm wrote:
All Buddhist schools teach this.

Stick with Prasanga Madhyamaka, and you will be ok.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:



Sādhaka said:
“...or someone who changes gender...”

This must be referring to changing gender in the womb....

Malcolm wrote:
No, it refers to intersexed people.

Sādhaka said:
Even though being embodied in samsara at all, that is whether heterosexual or not, is we could say produced by affliction, I still think there is a difference between a actual hermaphrodite, indeterminate-sex or intersex person, and androgynous being; and someone who wishes to change sex outside of the womb or someone who seeks to perform & prefers to perform a procreative physical act with someone else of the same sex.

Malcolm wrote:
They are all paṇḍakas, and all for the same set of reasons. One cannot perform a procreative physical act with a person of the same gender. It is also unkind to subject these people to moral judgements. A transgendered person is someone who was born that way, even if they need to have reassignment surgery. This is why the Dharma recognizes that there are more than two genders. Modern society should catch up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: How does offering music work?
Content:
Tenma said:
When one offers music via playing a bell, drumming, singing, gongs, bowls, horns, flutes, strings, etc. how does one offer it? Offer the instrument and visualize it resonating divine sounds? Play the instrument and recite mantras while doing so (or recite the mantras before or after playing?)? I have an upcoming violin solo (Lalo's Symphonie Espagnole Mvt. 4), so there will be lots of intense practice. In the meantime, how can I offer music to the tathagatas or bodhisattvas like Yangchenma? There are lots of commentary on water, light, food, and incense offerings, but there's a lack of musical stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
That's what the bell is for.

Tenma said:
And if one has other instruments like a violin (or a drum)? Or their voice?

Malcolm wrote:
You can use a symbol, generally a small conch shell in the line of offerings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 7:38 AM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
"Perennialism is a perspective in spirituality that views all of the world's religious traditions as sharing a single, metaphysical truth or origin from which all esoteric and exoteric knowledge and doctrine has grown."

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, the  single, metaphysical truth or origin of all world religious traditions is the teaching of Dharmakāya Samantabhadra. Everything else is either a skillful means (Buddhadharma) or a misunderstanding (everyone else).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 6:36 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #1
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
As for myself, 1. And if gangster in the white house gets elected again, 7. Except for here, where I get to torture you, Nicholas.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Torture moi Such  hyperbole.

Malcolm wrote:
I am glad you enjoyed it. I told you once that despite appearances, I considered you a friend. I meant it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2020 poll #1
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
What will all you Bernie-bots do if he does not get the Presidential nomination?

1) Vote for the Democrat that is nominated.

2) Not vote for President at all.

3) Move to fill-in-the-blank

4) Destroy the nominating convention place.

5) Join Aniti-fa & make the streets run with blood.

6) Weep much, get drunk, weep some more etc.

7)  Ignore politics and practice buddhadharma.

8) None of the above.

Malcolm wrote:
I can't say what all Sanders supporter will do. Some will do idiotic things like voting for Jill Stein or equivalent, since they fail to understand that political parties are what we make them. For example, the Republican Party four years ago was pro-trade and pro-immigration, understood the importance of a working government with functional separation of powers, etc. with a well-staffed state department, etc. Now it has just become a massive cult of personality, thanks to Fake News courtesy of the Murdochs.

As for myself, 1. And if gangster in the white house gets elected again, 7. Except for here, where I get to torture you, Nicholas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:
smcj said:
I know a guy that had a heart transplant. He let some guy that had gone to med school give him drugs that rendered him completely helpless and at the guys mercy. Then this guy cut his chest wide open and literally cut my friend’s heart out. Plus he took a LOT of my friend’s money. As described that is outrageous and criminal!

Is it shameful that I did not object? No, of course not.

That’s a far cry from saying I won’t object if my dentist gets in a drunken bar fight and stabs somebody.

See the difference?

Malcolm wrote:
Non sequitur.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: How does offering music work?
Content:
Tenma said:
When one offers music via playing a bell, drumming, singing, gongs, bowls, horns, flutes, strings, etc. how does one offer it? Offer the instrument and visualize it resonating divine sounds? Play the instrument and recite mantras while doing so (or recite the mantras before or after playing?)? I have an upcoming violin solo (Lalo's Symphonie Espagnole Mvt. 4), so there will be lots of intense practice. In the meantime, how can I offer music to the tathagatas or bodhisattvas like Yangchenma? There are lots of commentary on water, light, food, and incense offerings, but there's a lack of musical stuff.

Malcolm wrote:
That's what the bell is for.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: Eminem darkness
Content:
Ayu said:
America cannot get what mass-shooting really means..

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, we get it all right, there simply is no political will to deal with the issue properly because of the Jesus and Guns crowd.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: Eminem darkness
Content:


Vasana said:
I thought Donald Glover's song from 2018 was more 'shocking' to be honest.  Said to be critiquing the role of musicians in continuously entertaining people while shootings never cease. Normalizing gun crime.


Malcolm wrote:
Awesome music video.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Nemo said:
Problem is socialized medicine works incredibly well Malcolm.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, which is why I support Sanders.


Nemo said:
I worked in hospitals for years. Few things make Canadians violent. Refusing them care was incredibly dangerous in my experience. Whoever takes it away is a dead man.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe. England is different than Canada: fear of Boris was not enough to keep people from voting him in. NHS is on the chopping block soon, you can bet.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-privatisation-sale-boris-johnson-conservatives-general-election-a9241881.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:


Könchok Thrinley said:
You do have to realize that first of all the american political standards are kinda messed up. Here in central Europe and especially countries that were communist, things are really different. Here universal healthcare and unions are the normal standard.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Könchok Thrinley said:
The reason why coalminers are against closing coal mines, are of course because of their jobs, but also here unions can be more conservative (not the usa messed up conservative) and traditional than socialist.

Malcolm wrote:
That is true of Solidarity, certainly.

Könchok Thrinley said:
In post-communist countries communism and socialism is the "conservative" ideology, or at least how it is represented by communist parties, or labour unions. The real left here is just as dead as everywhere else basically.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup. Polish Gvt. is right wing, and once the UK sells off their national health, you can expect other countries to do the same, though of course, not every EU country has a national health, like Germany for example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Simon E. said:
What are you reading Dan?  Prominent Tories deny anthropogenic climate change on a daily basis! Including half of Boris’s cabinet and most of the Tory press...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they are all Trumpsters now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 3:15 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:


Dan74 said:
You seriously think that was the reason?  Borges didn't do well at all under the quasi-fascist Peron government. Didn't push him to the Left though. He had reasons for his convictions. Just like Tolkien.

Malcolm wrote:
Peron's government was a fascist government. But he, like Mussolini (and unlike Hitler) began his political career on the left. Borges, to his credit, was horrified by Fascism and was vocal about. He had a a variety of political positions, and his identification with conservatism was as a classical liberal. But today most conservatives hew to Burke, rather than Locke and Smith.

But I am talking about the kind of Anglo American conservatism we see today: reflected in punitive austerity measures, the abandonment of social safety nets, climate change denialism, and so on.

Dan74 said:
Look at the long-standing opposition to coal-mining reduction in Poland or reduction in native timbers logging in Australia. In both cases by left-wing unions. It's not surprising really, since as you imply, it is human nature to look after our own livelihood. But you seem to suggest that this is prevalent on the Right, while the Left selflessly fight for the common good.

Malcolm wrote:
I definitely think this is more prevalent on the right than on the left. And in fact, those unions in Poland and Australia are fighting for a common good, just one that is short-sighted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:


smcj said:
Yes and no. However the great likelihood favors the mundane view. Thus my support of HHDL and Mingyur R’s positionson lama abuse.

On a practical level you choose your teachers cautiously and conservatively so that such an occasion cannot occur. Then you can give carte blanche—but from a safe distance away from any lines.

Malcolm wrote:
Your answer is in direct contradiction to the tantras. I am not sure why you persist in such wrong headed contrarianism.

TrimePema said:
What do you mean?

Malcolm wrote:
I was talking to smcj. He/she has this belief, unwarranted though it is, that somehow the tantras grant license to a teacher to do anything to anyone. But this is not true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Pema Chödron steps down
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Right, Mukpo said he wished to start teaching again, the board decided to invite him. This disturbed Pema Chodron so much she quit, much to her credit.

Arnoud said:
If you don't mind me asking, why do you view this different than the Sogyal debacle? Seems to me they both behaved the same, yet you seem to give Sogyal more leeway. I wonder where you see the distinction.

Malcolm wrote:
I guess I have slightly more respect for Sogyal than Mukpo. Not much, but some.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is not the case with Mahāyāna pratimokṣa, only Hinayāna pratimokṣa.

Queequeg said:
Can you elaborate on that?

Malcolm wrote:
You can read this in the Kosha, chapter 4.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:


Dan74 said:
Many prominent conservatives did not come from wealthy families. Take the recently diseased Roger Scrutton. Or Jorge Borges who never really enjoyed wealth or privilege in his own country. Or even Tolkien, who after his father's death had to subsist with his mother on the handouts of a few relatives, until they stopped.

Malcolm wrote:
Borges, proves my point admirably -- he began a social democrat in his youth, and only became a conservative after he became successful. As I said, the political point of view of conservatives is "I got mine."


Dan74 said:
Some European conservative governments (even the British Tories) have embraced reducing emissions in order to ameliorate clime change. While some people on the Left are resistant, due to job losses. It's not black and white.

Malcolm wrote:
Who are some of these leftist climate deniers?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In Abhidharma, excess affliction in general is the primary cause of a paṇḍaka. No cause is speculated upon in terms of conduct in past lives, it is simply stated that because of excess afflictions of both sexes (anger for lesbians), such people are incapable of holding pratimokṣa vows. But there is no sort of moral judgments about these people since there are many kinds of beings of ambiguous gender, like nāgas and so on.

Könchok Thrinley said:
By pratimoksa vows do you mean the ordained precepts or also the lay precepts? And what does that mean concerning modern gay followers, since the understanding is bit different nowadays? I mean I don't think I am less capable upholding 5 lay precepts, although the definition of sexual misconduct can be a rather tricky/hazy one as many modern teachers  don't go into that topic.

Malcolm wrote:
Both. There are no "lay vows" in Buddhadharma. This idea is a misconception borrowed from Christianity. From an Abhidharma point of view, and Vinaya, you can certainly be refuge holder, but you cannot receive the vows, even if you undergo the pratimokṣa vow ceremony, other than as an aspiration.

This is not the case with Mahāyāna pratimokṣa, only Hinayāna pratimokṣa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
Wait a minute.

If its "caused by" a mother's post-conception behaviour, is it the mother's "fault" that an otherwise straight child is born gay instead?

Is it "caused by" a mother's specific post-conception behaviour or "accompanied by" these certain behaviours?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing as an "otherwise straight" child. Generally speaking, gender differentiation, in Tibetan Medicine and Ayurveda, occurs about three weeks after conception, though it can be changed in the third week of pregnancy.

If you are gay, you were born that way, according to Tibetan Medicine. So, nothing to really get bothered about. People who issue moral judgements about gender preferences, including the desire to change genders, simply have no idea what the facts are beneath such wishes and seem to have this idea that if you are a miserable in a male body, you should not seek to change this. But of course we know throughout history that there are men and women who are more comfortable in gender identities different than what their genitalia might indicate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 19th, 2020 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Tibetan Medicine would recognize that it wouldn’t be the mother’s post-conception behavior alone; and that karma & vipaka from previous lifetimes would be a factor too.

Same with Abhidharma: i.e. it would not be excess desire alone, but also the way that excess desire was put into action in previous lifetimes.



Malcolm wrote:
In Tibetan Medicine it is considered to be primarily the conduct of the mother, but also whether the amount of reproductive fluid is even. In other words:

"More semen, a boy will be born; more menstrum, a girl will be born. Equal amounts, apart from the divisions of ambiguous gender, cause the birth of twins; incompatible birth location; physical deformity, these are births caused by harmful impurities.

At the time of conception when the father’s sperm, the mother’s egg and the bardo consciousness are together, if there is more semen of the father, there will be birth as a boy; if there is more menstrum, i.e. the red element, a girl will be born a girl. If the semen and menstrum are even, a neuter, a hermaphrodite, or someone who changes gender will be born and at the time of the mer mer po stage of the mixing of semen and the red element twins will be born from a division into two or three sections because of being divided by wind. Also each section will have a some greater, lesser, or an equivalent amount of semen and menstrum,  producing births as above. "

Here ambiguous gender is a translation of the term paṇḍaka, and there are several types of paṇḍaka, with hermaphrodites and gay people included in this category.


In Abhidharma, excess affliction in general is the primary cause of a paṇḍaka. No cause is speculated upon in terms of conduct in past lives, it is simply stated that because of excess afflictions of both sexes (anger for lesbians), such people are incapable of holding pratimokṣa vows. But there is no sort of moral judgments about these people since there are many kinds of beings of ambiguous gender, like nāgas and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Pema Chödron steps down
Content:



PeterC said:
Me too.  Not exactly surprising, though.  Note the way that he's invited back - it's not that he wants to start teaching again, but he can't refuse the sincere requests of the Shambhala organizers; they are aware of the issues, but can't refuse the sincere requests of students who want to receive teachings; etc etc. General lack of responsibility all around. Well done to PC for walking away from that.

Malcolm wrote:
”When I read the recent letter from the Sakyong saying that he wished to start teaching again and would do so for all who requested, I was disheartened.”

PeterC said:
“ I understand that the Board’s decision to invite the Sakyong was based on the compassionate intention to benefit the 125 people who wish to take the abhisheka in order to continue on their path...

I feel that as a community committed to creating an enlightened society, we deserve something better than business as usual.

Hopefully, it’s not too late to reverse this trend.  For instance, the Board could be proactive and invite a few small groups of people with differing views to propose ideas for how we can go forward – ways that include everyone in the community and that provide accountability for all that has happened.  If the Board could then make it their priority for 2020 to start to implement some of these plans … that, in my opinion, would be very wise.”

She’s not exactly beating about the bush on this

Malcolm wrote:
Right, Mukpo said he wished to start teaching again, the board decided to invite him. This disturbed Pema Chodron so much she quit, much to her credit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I'm pretty sure if we really want to go looking, the source is likely one of the Chinese apocryphal bodhisattvaśīla scriptures in the 1400's of the Taishō Canon. That's just a guess, those scriptures have all sorts of things in them.

But its very common to be of the opinion that cheating will get you reborn as a homosexual. Even people who are okay with homosexuals may be of that opinion, since why would you kick a man while he's down (while he's homosexual, so to speak, in this instance)? Even if misconduct leads to birth as a homosexual, it doesn't make any sense then to be extra cruel or what-have-you toward homosexuals because of what happened in the past.

That being said, I'd be interested if there's canonical sources for this. I hear it often enough that people have to be pulling it from somewhere, and I hear it often coming from Thai Buddhism, so I think it may be some śrāvaka Buddhavacana in their canon.

It's like if I learned that Queequeg (sorry to use you as an example here) has a terrible non-contagious genetic skin condition and that he got it as a result of being a rapist in 1850 or something, then I decided to treat Queegqueg like he's a rapist right now and make conclusions about his person based on his skin condition and that I've decided he's still a rapist.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Malcolm wrote:
Abhidharmakosha maintains that male homosexuality is a result of excess desire in the mind stream. Tibetan medicine maintains it is principally the behavior of the mother.

Caoimhghín said:
"So what does the lady have to do, be on top?" he said, only with half a joke in his mouth.

Malcolm wrote:
The post-conception behavior of the mother, not whether she is cowgirl or missionary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 9:12 PM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I'm pretty sure if we really want to go looking, the source is likely one of the Chinese apocryphal bodhisattvaśīla scriptures in the 1400's of the Taishō Canon. That's just a guess, those scriptures have all sorts of things in them.

But its very common to be of the opinion that cheating will get you reborn as a homosexual. Even people who are okay with homosexuals may be of that opinion, since why would you kick a man while he's down (while he's homosexual, so to speak, in this instance)? Even if misconduct leads to birth as a homosexual, it doesn't make any sense then to be extra cruel or what-have-you toward homosexuals because of what happened in the past.

That being said, I'd be interested if there's canonical sources for this. I hear it often enough that people have to be pulling it from somewhere, and I hear it often coming from Thai Buddhism, so I think it may be some śrāvaka Buddhavacana in their canon.

It's like if I learned that Queequeg (sorry to use you as an example here) has a terrible non-contagious genetic skin condition and that he got it as a result of being a rapist in 1850 or something, then I decided to treat Queegqueg like he's a rapist right now and make conclusions about his person based on his skin condition and that I've decided he's still a rapist.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Malcolm wrote:
Abhidharmakosha maintains that male homosexuality is a result of excess desire in the mind stream. Tibetan medicine maintains it is principally the behavior of the mother.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: driving the seafood truck
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
Well, in the chicken truck example- you are delivering them to be killed. Surely that has some karma attached to it?

Malcolm wrote:
If it is the only job you can get, and you hate it, not much if any.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Article about the autorship of the Heart Sutra written in Japanese
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
I don't think he comes here often.

‘Epithets of the Mantra’ in the Heart Sutra by Jayarava is like a collection of his best arguments and most interesting insights concerning the sūtra divorced of the more extreme claims like the Tang dynasty forgery piece on his blog.

I don't know if it's peer reviewed. I should figure out, but I'm on my phone.

Malcolm wrote:
Peer review is overrated, case in point, jayarava.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: Article about the autorship of the Heart Sutra written in Japanese
Content:
tingdzin said:
Oh, yes, the thread Malcolm provided sheds some light on this. But I was talking about Nattier's thesis only, and don't care what Jayarava had to say (he says he doesn't even know Chinese). Nattier cannot be held responsible, nor her conclusions dismissed, simply because somebody else tries to exaggerate her case. Meantime, I'll try to find some of Jayarava's "peer-reviewed" articles. Or he could post e-addresses.

Malcolm wrote:
Not Jayarava, Wongchuck.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:
smcj said:
Scenario 1: Naropa and Milarepa.

Scenario 2: Ösel Tendzin and SMR.

I think both scenarios should be taken into consideration. In summary my point has mostly been that, as serious as scenario 2 is, it does not completely invalidate scenario 1.

Is that a problem for people?

TrimePema said:
Osel Tendzin is a good example IMO because when he became regent Trungpa Rinpoche also stated directly that VROT was not enlightened. VROT then, later, did actually rape someone, and he also had students who still saw him as pure...

Hm....

Were the students mistaken in that case? Does that mean their practice was backwards?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. He caused the fatal illness of at least one person, and now that act is considered homocide.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
It must be in the Mūlasarvāstivāda vinaya? I've read a lot of Theravādin abortion debates and never seen that come up from their vinaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps, in our Vinaya, a monk can only be guilty of killing a human being after the 19th week.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:


Fortyeightvows said:
Being gay comes from sexual misconduct in past lives.

Malcolm wrote:
No. This is not correct, and is not how the five recognizable genders in Buddhist texts occur. Gender preference is mostly a result of the mother's conduct during pregnancy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 8:19 PM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Also, Nāgārjuna, for example, recommends that sovereigns pardon criminals, abolish death sentences for capital crimes, provide universal healthcare and social services, etc.

Most Buddhists I know personally oppose abortion, since the Buddhist theory of conception means that a zygote is a sentient being. However, most Western Buddhists understand that all arguments against abortion are fundamentally religious arguments, and therefor, understand the necessity of not legislating religious values into law.

Fortyeightvows said:
So we can use religious arguments (from Nagarjuna) for things that you like.
But religious arguments against killing babys can't use because they are religious arguments.

Malcolm wrote:
If we use religious arguments, you have to bear in mind, that, according to our own texts a fetus experiences no pain until 19 weeks, at which point aborting it becomes killing of a human being, but not before. This defined in Vinaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 11:52 AM
Title: Re: Article about the autorship of the Heart Sutra written in Japanese
Content:
tingdzin said:
By whom and when? Your bare assertions mean nothing.

Malcolm wrote:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=29238&start=20


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 11:03 AM
Title: Re: Article about the autorship of the Heart Sutra written in Japanese
Content:
tingdzin said:
I assume you've already seen the article by Jan Nattier, in which she convincingly demonstrates that the Heart Sutra was originally a Chinese adaptation of the longer Prajnaparamita literature, back-translated into Sanskrit probably by Xuanzang? It's on the web, I believe.

Malcolm wrote:
This has been convincingly rejected.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 11:01 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:


TrimePema said:
Right! But I feel like this gets us back to the original question:

Given that I ought to practice as if my teacher were actually an enlightened master, if my teacher were to do something like rape someone, would there be any grounds for viewing it as pure or would it automatically mean my master was not actually enlightened?

Malcolm wrote:
No and yes.

smcj said:
Yes and no. However the great likelihood favors the mundane view. Thus my support of HHDL and Mingyur R’s positionson lama abuse.

On a practical level you choose your teachers cautiously and conservatively so that such an occasion cannot occur. Then you can give carte blanche—but from a safe distance away from any lines.

Malcolm wrote:
Your answer is in direct contradiction to the tantras. I am not sure why you persist in such wrong headed contrarianism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 10:44 AM
Title: Re: Pema Chödron steps down
Content:
TsultimNamdak said:
Pema Chödron steps down as an acharya.

https://shambhalatimes.org/2020/01/16/letter-from-ani-pema-chodron/

smcj said:
That SMR is returning to Shambhala as an active teacher is also a news flash for me.

PeterC said:
Me too.  Not exactly surprising, though.  Note the way that he's invited back - it's not that he wants to start teaching again, but he can't refuse the sincere requests of the Shambhala organizers; they are aware of the issues, but can't refuse the sincere requests of students who want to receive teachings; etc etc. General lack of responsibility all around. Well done to PC for walking away from that.

Malcolm wrote:
”When I read the recent letter from the Sakyong saying that he wished to start teaching again and would do so for all who requested, I was disheartened.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 6:47 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:


TrimePema said:
Right! But I feel like this gets us back to the original question:

Given that I ought to practice as if my teacher were actually an enlightened master, if my teacher were to do something like rape someone, would there be any grounds for viewing it as pure or would it automatically mean my master was not actually enlightened?

Malcolm wrote:
No and yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:


Queequeg said:
Right - were the parties related? I suppose Democrats of a certain time liked to think that they were descended from Jefferson?

Following on the shifting alignments... seems a lot of modern Republicans think Jackson was a hero, while for many Democrats - he was a genocidal Indian killer.

Malcolm wrote:
The Democrats evolved out of a split in the Democratic Republican Party over the succession of Madison. The Republicans evolved from the split in the Democratic Party over slavery in 1854. So in reality, both political parties today can trace their origin to the Jeffersonian Democratic-Republican Party and the Jacksonian Democratic Party.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:



Queequeg said:
I think most people recognize that party alignment is a matter of expedience, and tomorrow, if the party shifts and stands for something else, time to abandon ship.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, the party Jefferson started was called the Democratic-Republican Party. The modern Democratic Party was actually founded by supporters of Andrew Jackson in 1828.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:


Dan74 said:
By comparison, a conservative (I am beings somethings of a Devil's advocate here) would create favourable conditions for the individual to flourish in freedom and then that very same individual would give generously, form voluntary groups to address the very same issues much more efficiently than the superstructures the progressives seek to impose.

Queequeg said:
Actually, I think what you are describing there is basically Neo-Liberal ideology, as espoused by establishment "Conservatives", which really should be called Rich People.

Malcolm wrote:
Exactly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 18th, 2020 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Dan74 said:
I guess over the years I've become pretty conservative on some social issues. But US Conservatives is something else entirely. For me, classical conservative vs progressive is simply that -  emphasis on preserving what is traditional, established vs emphasis on changing, reforming and throwing away. Any thinking person needs to look at matters on a case-by-case basis, but there is still bound to be an a priori bias towards conserving or changing.

Malcolm wrote:
This is ridiculously simplistic. The short and fast version is the conservatives want conserve their class privilege, which are the means by which they have attained wealth and power. This attitude begins right with person considered the founder of the modern conservatism, Burke. While lounging (or playing golf) in saccharine paternalism which pretends to a concern for others, conservatives in general simply want to make sure that they get to keep the benefits of their class privileges, which they did not earn for themselves, but came into on the backs of others.

Progressives seek to make sure that in a society were there is an enormous disparity between people in terms of class and privilege, those who have an outsized amount of power due to their wealth and power do not deprive those who lack wealth and privilege (most of us) of our basic rights, and seek policies to make sure that no one secures wealth and privilege through exploiting others. This may involve wealth redistribution from rich to the poor; whereas conservative policies seek to redistribute wealth from the poor to the rich.

In modern times, in so called first world countries, this is most crucially felt at the environmental level, where the those who have wealth and power live in regions that are relatively unpolluted, whereas the poor and powerless are forced to live in toxic environments.

At this phase of the game, progressives want to save the environment, whereas, over the last 20 years or so, conservatives have abandoned all sense and gone full tilt climate denialism, not because they really believe there is no problem, but because it is inconvenient for their accumulation of wealth and power.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddha did not attain buddhahood through the dhyānas, etc. He went through the dhyānas in order to eradicated paths of rebirth caused by them, which culminated in vajropamasamadhi. But vajropamasamadhi is not necessary for awakening, only for buddhahood. In Dzogchen teachings, for example, the conclusion of the four visions is vajropamasamadhi.

Arnoud said:
Awakening here is equated with path of seeing? 1st stage Bodhisattva?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Blackthorne said:
And for my part, I have never understood how a republican can square their economic beliefs in unfettered free trade, their absurd climate change denialism, and their commitment to undermining education and healthcare with their supposed religious commitment to bearing love and compassion for all sentient beings. However, most of the GOP Buddhists I know do not belong to a mainstream Buddhist denomination, but rather somewhat fringy groups.

That said, there are Asian Buddhist leaders who do come from a more conservative mind set, and this causes their devoted western students to often experience cognitive dissonance when the latter discover their teacher is an antidemocratic authoritarian who hates muslims and black people, and thinks that Trump and Putin are the bomb.
I'm Canadian and have no dog in the fight when it comes to GOP vs. anyone.

Malcolm wrote:
Canadian conservatives are basically liberals; unless you think Canada should eliminate universal health care, start letting Pharma set drug prices for your nation and so on, in which case, you are insane.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:
Blackthorne said:
If you want to post pics of them I could tell you want they mean or which Rite he belonged to.

Malcolm wrote:
I think that Nicholas Weeks, who posts here often, is a mason.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Not so - never was, in this life anyway.

Malcolm wrote:
My mistake then, it must be because you are a Theosophist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:


Blackthorne said:
Anyway, thanks. I wasn't trying to cause a fight or stir the pot just expressing my opinion and my first impressions as a new poster.


Malcolm wrote:
And for my part, I have never understood how a republican can square their economic beliefs in unfettered free trade, their absurd climate change denialism, and their commitment to undermining education and healthcare with their supposed religious commitment to bearing love and compassion for all sentient beings. However, most of the GOP Buddhists I know do not belong to a mainstream Buddhist denomination, but rather somewhat fringy groups.

That said, there are Asian Buddhist leaders who do come from a more conservative mind set, and this causes their devoted western students to often experience cognitive dissonance when the latter discover their teacher is an antidemocratic authoritarian who hates muslims and black people, and thinks that Trump and Putin are the bomb.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Freemasonry
Content:
Blackthorne said:
If you want to post pics of them I could tell you want they mean or which Rite he belonged to.

Malcolm wrote:
I think that Nicholas Weeks, who posts here often, is a mason.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Blackthorne said:
From the reading I've done and the few practicing Buddhists I know, I would gather that Buddhism leans to the right socially/politically...

Malcolm wrote:
Um, no, this is a misconception. A conservative would be very unhappy with Madhyamaka, for example, since Madhyamaka scholars ridicule monarchy, conservatives will not find this comfortable.

Also, Nāgārjuna, for example, recommends that sovereigns pardon criminals, abolish death sentences for capital crimes, provide universal healthcare and social services, etc.

Most Buddhists I know personally oppose abortion, since the Buddhist theory of conception means that a zygote is a sentient being. However, most Western Buddhists understand that all arguments against abortion are fundamentally religious arguments, and therefor, understand the necessity of not legislating religious values into law.

Queequeg said:
Well said.

Following up on Nagarjuna's Ratnavali his advice to a sovereign. Those policy recommendations, I think, resonate most closely with many contemporary progressive agendas. If I were to summarize, its a recommendation to a sovereign to rule with deep, profound kindness.

Malcolm wrote:
Exactly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
The issue of jhana one of the main points that later buddhism really departs from what the buddha taught in the earliest texts.

In fact jhana is how the buddha himself attained liberation!
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html

As for the formless, buddha quite explicitly said those do not lead to final liberation. (also there is no sutta to be found where the formless are called jhana.
"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.'

Malcolm wrote:
Buddha did not attain buddhahood through the dhyānas, etc. He went through the dhyānas in order to eradicated paths of rebirth caused by them, which culminated in vajropamasamadhi. But vajropamasamadhi is not necessary for awakening, only for buddhahood. In Dzogchen teachings, for example, the conclusion of the four visions is vajropamasamadhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:



TrimePema said:
What? So killing can be done with a mind that does not come from strong aversion but cheating on your spouse or causing another person to cheat on their spouse can only be caused by strong sexual desire?

Malcolm wrote:
The classic example where sexual misconduct is engaged in to benefit another is the story where a bodhisattva monk is the object of a young women's desperate desire for him. She threatens to kill herself unless he gives himself to her and breaks his vows. So he does.


TrimePema said:
I don't think you are right about that. The Buddhas emanated as a copy of Rudra and had sex with his consort in order to give birth to an emanation that could subjugate Rudra.

Malcolm wrote:
Haven't heard that version of the story. I don't think this is quite right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: Guru yoga with Samantabhadra?
Content:
monktastic said:
In Nyingma, of course Guru Rinpoche is most often used for GY. Have you heard of anyone using Samantabhadra directly? Perhaps the Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra could be considered basically that.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a guru yoga composed by Longchenpa that uses Samantabhadra, it is a practicing coming from sems sde.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 16th, 2020 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?
Content:
Blackthorne said:
From the reading I've done and the few practicing Buddhists I know, I would gather that Buddhism leans to the right socially/politically...

Malcolm wrote:
Um, no, this is a misconception. A conservative would be very unhappy with Madhyamaka, for example, since Madhyamaka scholars ridicule monarchy, conservatives will not find this comfortable.

Also, Nāgārjuna, for example, recommends that sovereigns pardon criminals, abolish death sentences for capital crimes, provide universal healthcare and social services, etc.

Most Buddhists I know personally oppose abortion, since the Buddhist theory of conception means that a zygote is a sentient being. However, most Western Buddhists understand that all arguments against abortion are fundamentally religious arguments, and therefor, understand the necessity of not legislating religious values into law.

Blackthorne said:
but online I see a lot 'hate' toward conservative points of view.


Malcolm wrote:
As far as rhetoric goes, Donald Trump is a lawless gangster, and those who voted for him should be absolutely ashamed of themselves and what the GOP has become. Lindsey Graham is the new poster boy for GOP fecklessness. Trump is not a conservative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 8:32 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:



TrimePema said:
You're right in the sense that what he did was concluded to be sexual misconduct regarding a number of claims. This is defined as unwanted sexual contact. I thought what was implied by "sex crimes" earlier in this conversation was rape. Am I misunderstanding the categories here?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitions vary from state to state, but generally sexual assault refers to penetrating the body in any orifice with any member of the body.

Sexual harassment, as defined by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, is illegal and can include “offensive remarks about a person’s sex, unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors.” The latter is criminal, but is not what I meant when I used the term sex crime. I was thinking of sexual assault.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soloish/wp/2017/12/21/whats-the-difference-between-sexual-assault-and-harassment-lets-break-it-down/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:



smcj said:
Sex crimes are by definition not done with bodhicitta motivation. In the same sense I t is also possible to do an otherwise virtuous action with criminal intent.

As I just said, there is never a circumstance that allows for a negative mind since that cannot be a remedy to a situation.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, which is why I specified sex crimes, like rape, etc.

TrimePema said:
Okay... I don't want to be THAT GUY but I have to genuinely ask this.

In my experience with the Shambhala people - I was fairly close with them when the SMR info came to light - there was some confusion. Initially, people thought there were sex crimes that were committed.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because allegedly he raped someone in Chile. But I think this was never verified.

TrimePema said:
But when the report actually came out, and when I spoke with people who were actually there during one or more of the reported incidents, or received first hand accounts from people who were actually there and relayed them to me, it became clear that during one of the main incidents people were super upset about, what had transpired was the following: there was a party (read tsok) and during the offerings one student had the idea to play truth or dare with the Guru. What happened is someone dared SMR and a student to kiss, which they did, during which he allegedly kissed her too long and it made people uncomfortable.

Malcolm wrote:
That's not what I had in mind.

TrimePema said:
Is this a sex crime or what category does this fall under given the above descriptions of sexual misconduct

Malcolm wrote:
That is not sexual misconduct in my book. That's just poor manners.

The fact is that men need to learn how to restrain themselves around women and act in a manner appropriate to the situation. In most cases, sleeping with female students is just a bad policy, especially if they are throwing themselves at you. But the male ego is a fragile thing, and this is why men get into so much trouble. This is not an issue with Gurus, etc. This is an issue of male entitlement, and listen gentleman, we have all been raised with it from the time we were little kids.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Time For A Republic.
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Time For A Republic.
Content:
Simon E. said:
Yes, well we know you have Scottish ancestry Malcolm...

Malcolm wrote:
Just sayin...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: Time For A Republic.
Content:
Mantrik said:
Whatever form it takes, it's a toss-up whether it is better to have people as titular rulers who are there because of past  generations of warmongering and corruption, and those who are there because of current warmongering and corruption.

Suggestion 1:
Maybe we could persuade Netflix to buy the Windsor franchise and turn the whole shebang into a hybrid form of reality tv series:

'I''m a Royalty, Get me Out of Big Brother's Island' ?

Suggestion 2:
As this lot are Germans, we could arrange a rota system of royals from different nationalities to have a bash at it for a decade or so.

Suggestion 3:
Let descendants of previous relevant monarchs loose in an annual Royal 'It's a Knockout' series and give each winner a year.
At the moment, I'd put money on the Athelstan clan, even though they did fail to claim back Long Island recently.

Malcolm wrote:
The only genuine sovereigns of England, Scotland, and Wales are the Stuarts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Time For A Republic.
Content:


Simon E. said:
Well good, you are welcome to keep the whole tribe then as well as Harry and Meghan. I’m sure we in the U.K. can put the money saved to good use.

Malcolm wrote:
Spoken like a true American!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Time For A Republic.
Content:


Queequeg said:
How do the Quebecois feel about that?

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently the Sussexes were warned off about spending time in Montreal, as the Quebecois are not thrilled with being subjects of the English crown.

Also, I heard it speculated that one way to resolve the issue is to award Canada to the Sussexes and make them the King and Queen of Canada.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Dzamling Gar Song - text and meaning from CNN (link)
Content:


florin said:
If i am not mistaken there is a dance called the dance of the 12 A's that goes by the same name, Khalongdorjekar. It could be that they are one and the same thing with the one you mention above.

Malcolm wrote:
Different dance, same name. There is the twelve A one, and then there is the one that is done on the klong gsal symbol.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Time For A Republic.
Content:



Queequeg said:
If you have a disciplined monarchy, they'll let that nationalist impulse get projected onto them, and then its dissipated in harmless tabloid obsessions.

Consider in Japan where the nationalists keep trying to project onto the Emperor who in turn shrugs it off.

Malcolm wrote:
Hmmmm...Meiji restoration anyone?

This only works in a constitutional monarchy, and then, not even terribly well.



Queequeg said:
We're still by and large, stupid and tribal. A monarchy without any real power can function as a good diversion for the dumber nationalist impulses.

Malcolm wrote:
I think sports is a better outlet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 15th, 2020 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



Sādhaka said:
Nāgārjuyna's disciple who wrote the four hundred.

You’ve posted in other threads before about how Tibetans generally consider that there was only one Nāgārjuna; and that you think that the Sutric one and Tantric one are two different individuals.

Is it a similar situation with (the) Āryadeva(s)?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely.



Sādhaka said:
Aside from a Cakravartirāja, government by nature is corrupt. And I think that I can see where you’re coming from on not wanting to taint Dharma by involving it with government; if that is what you’re getting at.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with absolute monarchies, all of them, is that power only changes hands through death or violence. And history shows that good kings are inevitably followed by incompetent kings or worse.

Sādhaka said:
Democracy, assuming that we even have any semblance of democracy at all, without wise or at least fairly well informed people, is only mob rule (and mob rule can have an double meaning here).

Malcolm wrote:
Hence I specified representational democracy.


Sādhaka said:
Democracy: I’m the perfect form of government.

Malcolm wrote:
Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
—Winston Churchill


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Sure.

At the same time, I think this is with the assumption that the, well, sādhaka will close to the start become proficient in Tsa Lung, Trul Khor, Tummo, the Four Joys, etc. and that the sense pleasures will be enjoyed in that context. Unfortunately most people nowadays don’t seem to get that opportunity. They receive empowerments for a weekend, but then have to go home and work their 40 hours a week etc. instead.


Malcolm wrote:
There are the off-time yogas, eating, sleeping, etc. These are supposed to practiced everywhere.


Sādhaka said:
I don’t think that I could argue against this, but what does it have to do with enjoying sense-pleasures in Vajrayāna coming with the assumption that the sādhaka will close to the beginning become proficient in Tsa Lung, Trul Khor, Tummo, the Four Joys, etc., and that they would be enjoying the sense pleasures with that as a correct foundation for enjoying them?

Malcolm wrote:
The offtime yogas of sleeping, waking, bathing, clothing, eating, passion (for lay people), and so on meant to be practiced by beginners, from day one.


Sādhaka said:
However what about Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche having said that in Dzogchen doing missionary work is considered negative because it seeks to condition others?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I do not mean that we should stand on street corners with the Hevajra Tantra in hand trying to convert people. But, on the other hand, the entire point of the Vajramaster empowerment is committing to spread Vajrayāna dharma to benefit sentient beings.

Sādhaka said:
I suppose just bring Vajrayāna into conversation with people if it can arise naturally in a conversation, gauge the individual’s potential interest; and if they seem interested, then continue on, and if they do not seem interested at all, then change the subject? Also, how many qualified Teachers are there going to be for people within the next decade or so?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Sādhaka said:
The Tantric Aryadeva or the Sutric one?

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuyna's disciple who wrote the four hundred. In my opinion, when Dharma becomes the government, it becomes corrupted. This is the lesson of Buddhist Kingdoms. Constitutional monarchies are ok, as long the sovereign is merely a figurehead with no power. But I am a firm believer in separation of church and state and representational democracy. Not into kings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: Time For A Republic.
Content:
Simon E. said:
The point I am making is actually quite simple. If you are a Brit you are likely to have learn from babyhood that there is a benign Dad or Mum who has a status which will always be above yours, and that this parent figure is not different from the state, that as your passport will tell you, you are not a citizen, you do not even have a constitution, you are a subject...
That is infantilisation of a kind that the French did away in the 18th century.

Malcolm wrote:
They tried, and got Napoleon and the third republic.

I think you are stuck with Windsor’s until England decides to tire of the monarchy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Vasana said:
I never said anyone never understood anyone, I was just adding my two pennies to the pile and also responding to Malcolm and the discussion of whether vajrayana could be described as ultimately hedonic with attachment, aversion, cetanā and vipāka in mind.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s hedonism. You are practicing viewing everything as a fabulous palace in which there are nothing but delights, enjoyed by you, the king. Can’t get more hedonistic than that.

Vajrayana is not a path of renunciation, but rather transformation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 7:55 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If you have received any Vajrayāna empowerment, you are required by samaya to take sense pleasures for your own enjoyment.


Sādhaka said:
Sure.

At the same time, I think this is with the assumption that the, well, sādhaka will close to the start become proficient in Tsa Lung, Trul Khor, Tummo, the Four Joys, etc. and that the sense pleasures will be enjoyed in that context. Unfortunately most people nowadays don’t seem to get that opportunity. They receive empowerments for a weekend, but then have to go home and work their 40 hours a week etc. instead.

Malcolm wrote:
There are the off-time yogas, eating, sleeping, etc. These are supposed to practiced everywhere.


Sādhaka said:
But traditionally the sense pleasure enjoying aspect of Vajrayāna was considered secret (or was it not so secret circa 700 C.E. in India?); therefore we couldn’t really advertise it to the common person could we? If we could, for worse or for better, Vajrayāna would be much more popular in these times & days. But I‘m not sure that it would be appropriate to promote as such.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, since there is no liberation for people in this degenerate age apart from Vajrayāna, seems to me we should be spreading it as widely as possible.

Sādhaka said:
I mean if it were up to me, we would live in a Buddhocracy, a conservative-and somewhat-‘libertarian’-leaning one, and that would also allow for the sense-pleasure enjoying aspects of Vajrayāna; and Yungdrung/Vajrayāna would be the state religion as it was in Tibet, yet hopefully would be minus a lot of the unnecessary sectarian politicism.

Malcolm wrote:
Uggh, you read should read Aryadeva's take down of monarchy. Monarchs are fools, even Buddhist ones.


M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, my "hedonism" was also a shortcut to something somewhat more specific. But you knew that when you were making the comment.

Malcolm wrote:
I really can't understand why people still think asceticism is impressive or vital, given that we have Vajrayāna. Vajrayāna is the ultimate hedonic vehicle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
If one is really at the level that they can take sense pleasures onto the Vajrayāna Path, then their ‘hedonism’ has a useful context.

Malcolm wrote:
If you have received any Vajrayāna empowerment, you are required by samaya to take sense pleasures for your own enjoyment.

However, I was making a little joke. Epicurus, the founder of Hedonism, is the founder of the doctrine at the heart of so-called Deism, a cover term for atheist, among educated Anglo-Americans during the revolutionary period.

It is the secularism at the heart of Hedonism which I was invoking. And after all, there is nothing wrong with living for pleasure, mundane or transcendent. It is better than asceticism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
I think that the history and what is to a great extent still the present status of Bon, both in Tibet and in diaspora, makes it rather inevitable, does it not? I mean, Bonpo belong(ed) to the subaltern, the history of Bon's involvement with Buddhism is pretty much a textbook example of how a marginalised, oppressed/ignored and continually erased community struggles to remake itself so as to survive. And, HHDL efforts notwithstanding, the conflict is still very far from over, I have witnessed some very disturbing expressions of anti-Bon prejudice coming from Buddhist teachers.

Malcolm wrote:
I think it is useful to divided our narratives into myths (Buddhas living in past eons), legends, (stories of mahāsiddhas, possibly historical people embedded in fantastic stories, Milarepa comes to mind, Gyerphung Lodpo, 25 disciples of Guru P, etc.,) and history (things that can be verified with empirically available facts). If people structured their thinking to slot parts of narratives into these different categories, then this would go a along way towards eliminating sectarian conflicts.

treehuggingoctopus said:
It may. It might also help to allow for a number of diverging stories, which, diverge though they do, nevertheless all hit the crucial spot -- it may be simpler to achieve since it does not call for a need to agree upon what is fact and what is not.

These conflicts will probably subside "on their own" as religious traditions begin to really understand that the biggest threat is not another group of religious freaks in the town, but the increasingly prevalent hedonism and materialism. Many lamas in their 60s or younger are already well aware of what is going on.

Malcolm wrote:
I am a confirmed hedonist, and I personally think that the implicit secularism of Epicurus is the salve for religious wars.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
In the beginning you have to be like a bee, visiting many flowers.

Seeker12 said:
Is that, briefly, because you need to refine your understanding of what the lama is?

Malcolm wrote:
No, you need to encounter many different teachers in the beginning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
On which bhūmi, I'm not sure. As to the Theravāda question, I don't know of formless attainments are expected of all arhantaḥ.

Malcolm wrote:
None actually. It is possible to attain arhatship without samadhi, through mere "dry" insight.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
fckw said:
(Whether or not you absolutely need to have mastered the 1th to 4th jhana or not, I am not sure there is any consensus on this in therevada vipassana.)

Caoimhghín said:
I believe, in the Daśabhūmika 10 stages framework, a bodhisattva is eventually expected to master the four dhyānāni and the four ārūpyasamāpattayaḥ on his/her course through the ten grounds while completing anuttarā samyaksaṁbodhi, complete and perfect awakening.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, when such dhyānas do not result in paths of rebirth. When it comes to the thirty-seven bodhipakṣa dharmas, right samadhi is the last of the list, and is in that part of the bodhipakṣa dharmas that belong the noble path, beyond the path of seeing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 14th, 2020 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Concerns Regarding Mercuric Pills
Content:
Tenma said:
https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/10/4/282/htm

So I just read an article over the mendrup pills, however, seeing some of these substances, wouldn't they poison someone rather than actual heal them? Especially if it contains mercury? Anyone with experience in this?

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, sman sgrub has no mercury in it.

The pills they are talking about are very use Mercury sulfide, which, when correctly made, does not harm the human body.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/mercury-sulfide


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Vasana said:
Sure, I'm not conflating shamatha with trekchod, but like JD, I'm thinking of those sequential semde texts and particularly that of ChNNR's commentary. The 4  yogas including shamatha, the calm state etc.

Of course for seasoned practioners they're not sequential but these approaches of using shamatha for that initial pliabilty are evident.

Malcolm wrote:
Gnas pa is not really equivalent with formal śamatha. In other words, you do not have to have perfect śamatha of the type described in lower teachings. Gnas pa really just means being without concepts, or mental movements, for a little while. Then you discover that. You also discover that you cannot stop the movements of concepts. That is mi g.yo, "not moving." Then you disover they are the same state, mnyam nyid. Then having discovered that sameness, then you can effortlessly be in your real nature, lhun grub.

In order to create understanding in others, we equate the first two samadhis with śamatha and vipaśyanā, but it is a very gross and inaccurate comparison.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Vasana said:
Yet stabilizing the continuity is still an important part of familiarizing, no?

Malcolm wrote:
You should review the trekchod section in Buddhahood, 161-167.

Vasana said:
Will do so when I can. The book is at my parents house at the moment so it won't be anytime soon unfortunately.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, from the perspective of Dzogchen teachings, there are two kinds of persons: people who are inclined towards perceptual objects, and people who are inclined towards the self-appearance of vidyā. Teachings like semzins, tummo, chulen, etc., are oriented towards the former, and trekcho and thogal are oriented towards the latter.

In the section I mentioned, the progression is recognition, trust, and decisiveness. The Sound Tantra relates:

The recognition of one's own state is encountered with trust, 
Decisiveness establishes one in confidence.

This is just a very concise summary of the basic principles of Dzogchen teachings that are reinforced by the Three Phrases and so on.

These days, practicing śamatha accompanied with Dzogchen view is sometimes referred to as trekcho, but it is not really trekcho. Trekcho cannot arise out of śamatha. As The Tantra Without Syllables states:

Though the nature of vidyā pervades all,
the dharmakāya is encountered in the intimate instructions.

While it is certainly the case that practicing śamatha or mantra recitation (they are equivalent) with a Dzogchen view is beneficial, it is not the actual path of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
Vasana said:
Inaccurate meme is Inaccurate.

Surprised to see you fall victim to memetic warfare, Nemo.

Malcolm wrote:
I am pretty sure he was trying to make the reverse point, that blaming the Australia fires on arsonists distracts from the actual cause of the bushfires -- climate change. This is what he was talking about when he was going on about algorithms that push these views onto people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Vasana said:
Yet stabilizing the continuity is still an important part of familiarizing, no?

Malcolm wrote:
You should review the trekchod section in Buddhahood, 161-167.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It’s not possible for anyone to differentiate the alaya from the dharmakaya, or cut through the alaya, etc.,  unless they realize the exhaustion of dharmata in this lifetime. The alaya is the knowledge obscuration. It’s the last thing that goes before buddhahood fully dawns in ones mind.

fckw said:
Why is the exhaustion of dharmata a prerequisite to removing the knowledge obscuration? I have heard about them separately, but not one being the prerequisite of the other.

Malcolm wrote:
The exhaustion of phenomena is the attainment of buddhahood. If one has any shred of the knowledge obscuration left, one is not fully awakened. The fourth vision exhausts all remnants of the two obscurations; but the alaya is just another name for ignorance as a knowledge obscuration, rather than ignorance as affliction which is the first member of the twelve members of the chain of dependent origination.

fckw said:
Edit: Exhaustion of dharmata is obiously relevant because it means there are no new karmic imprints left. But this seems to me only to be a necessary but not a sufficient condition for actually removing the knowledge obscuration. Is this maybe what you meant?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not what I meant at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
ZZNG is an excellent teachings and many people have attained the body of light through its practice. Some Tibetan Buddhists, even Nyingmas, will be uncomfortable with you as a Bonpo student, and others, more open, won't care.

In the end, the teacher you pick is more important than the teaching.

shagrath said:
I will keep that in mind. Good advice.

I do not wish to start a new e-war but how to know which one to pick? The one cannot know if teacher reached body of light until teachers death bed. Or one cannot go wrong to choose from more famous lineages like students of Dilgo Khyentse (Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi, Shechen Rabjam, Matthieu Ricard) or sons of Tulku Urgyen?

Malcolm wrote:
In the beginning you have to be like a bee, visiting many flowers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 12:40 PM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I have not heard him say that, rather he makes the same distinction as I have seen in other teachings - between shamatha being resting meditation within the substrate, and trekchod being cutting through the substrate/Alaya.

So, if he is teaching that Trekchod is shamatha, he is not doing it in the places I have seen, and in fact makes the same distinction between the two I have seen from any Dzogchen teacher I’ve closely listened to.

Malcolm wrote:
He has said this.

It’s not possible for anyone to differentiate the alaya from the dharmakaya, or cut through the alaya, etc.,  unless they realize the exhaustion of dharmata in this lifetime. The alaya is the knowledge obscuration. It’s the last thing that goes before buddhahood fully dawns in ones mind.

The classical definition of trekchod is someone attaining full awakening upon introduction. Trekcho is related to the basis, the view. It is wisdom, shes rab. This is why they say trekcho is for lazy, intelligent people who don’t like to meditate.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I don't get your meaning here, or if I do it's contrary to all the (semde I guess) texts I've read that address different capacities. In the texts I'm thinking of for many of the lower-than-the-best types, begin with Shamatha which eventually turns into contemplation as pointing out/introduction/instructions on removing doubts etc. is given. By my reading what Wallace teaches accords pretty well with those.

Now I don't remotely have your access or acumen with scholarship, but I have read enough / been to enough teachings to know it is not unusual for the introduction/pointing out to be preceded by, and to a degree dependent on Shamatha, at least for those of any "lower" capacity. Which makes me wonder, what  do you mean by "classical presentation" and "full awakening" here in the context of Dzogchen literature??

Malcolm wrote:
Did you read Buddhahood? Gradual trekcho does not exist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: Question about serkyem set
Content:
KiwiNFLFan said:
I ordered a serkyem set off Aliexpress and it arrived today. I'd previously used a wine glass or smaller glass glass on a stem.

I noticed that the bowl on the top piece is on an angle. Is it supposed to be like that? If not, can it still be used to make serkyem offerings?

Malcolm wrote:
You should straighten it. Sometime they get bent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I have not heard him say that, rather he makes the same distinction as I have seen in other teachings - between shamatha being resting meditation within the substrate, and trekchod being cutting through the substrate/Alaya.

So, if he is teaching that Trekchod is shamatha, he is not doing it in the places I have seen, and in fact makes the same distinction between the two I have seen from any Dzogchen teacher I’ve closely listened to.

Malcolm wrote:
He has said this.

It’s not possible for anyone to differentiate the alaya from the dharmakaya, or cut through the alaya, etc.,  unless they realize the exhaustion of dharmata in this lifetime. The alaya is the knowledge obscuration. It’s the last thing that goes before buddhahood fully dawns in ones mind.

The classical definition of trekchod is someone attaining full awakening upon introduction. Trekcho is related to the basis, the view. It is wisdom, shes rab. This is why they say trekcho is for lazy, intelligent people who don’t like to meditate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Vasana said:
You'll be interested in hearing Alan Wallace's perspective on this. He also explores the roles of the dhyanis and the levels of shamatha practice.

It's not that the dhyanis are absent, it's that the yogic direct cognitions' perceptions taught in Tibetan Buddhism need not rely on perfect dhyani absorbtion as a prerequisite. The nature of mind including but *beyond* the vipassana topics off sutra is pointed out and so one can have those direct valid cognitions,  with or without the stability of stable dhyani or shamatha. (Although it will obviously help)

Alan Wallace will do a much better job at explaining this than my attempt above

Johnny Dangerous said:
He seems to be a big advocate of achieving Shamatha/the first Jhana, or coming close at least -including in a Dzogchen context. That's my understanding at least, mainly because it makes so many other things possible. The gist I got is that because achieving Shamatha makes for stable and clear vipaysana, and vipaysana is what guards one's practice of contemplation/nonmeditation from "backsliding". So according to my understanding of what he's teaching, you can - and people do - cut through to pristine awareness without achieving shamatha, but maintaining ad familiiarizing is far more likely with stable shamatha.

Malcolm wrote:
In dzogchen teachings one is using many different methods to discover natural concentration. Discovering shamatha is relatively simple when you use the approaches taught in the dzogchen tantras, rather than relying on the gradual method introduced by Kamalshila.

Rigpa is knowledge of your own state, when you have it, you never lose it, even if you are distracted.

One point where I really disagree with Wallace is his idea that trekcho is Dzogchen shamatha. I really dispute this notion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 6:17 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:


tkp67 said:
To the first comment: It is contextual to designations and identifications. This can be unpacked quite a bit. Simply put asserting either one doesn't put focus on a "middle way" but rather reinforces dualistic thinking. In my mind the middle way considers all sentient beings. All individuals are sentient beings.

Malcolm wrote:
All sentient beings are composed of many parts, five aggregates, sense basis, etc. So there really are not individuals, apart from a convention used to designate a collection, like "corporation."

tkp67 said:
It is a designation that is easier for the mind the rationalize. It does not seem to lend to a middle way.

Malcolm wrote:
As Nagārjuna points out, emptiness, dependent designation, and middle way are all synonyms.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:


shagrath said:
Could you please reflect a little bit to original question that was troubling me? I want to learn dzogchen, but I am in position that I can receive ZZNG dzogchen teachings and not from Nyingma. I really like it, as I stated I do not want to miss out on something. OR is it possible to learn directly ZZNG dzogchen and read next it both Bön and buddhist books for balanced position? As I got from all these posts is that dzogchen is dzogchen no matter which lineage belongs to.

Malcolm wrote:
ZZNG is an excellent teachings and many people have attained the body of light through its practice. Some Tibetan Buddhists, even Nyingmas, will be uncomfortable with you as a Bonpo student, and others, more open, won't care.

In the end, the teacher you pick is more important than the teaching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
la bzla ba, it means "to transcend."  This is merely a similarity in name, i.e. thod rgal as skipping stages.  In actuality however, the concept of la bzla ba also exists in Dzogchen, but it has a different usage, while meaning "to transcend".

I had a brief conversation about this issue with Ringu Tulku, based on some speculative statements he made in his book on the RIme Movement. However, in the end he stated to me that the difference between Dzogchen and Mahāmudra was thogal.

monktastic said:
Don't know if you're still reading this, Malcolm, but you are saying that la bzla ba is unrelated to thod rgal, correct?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Yeah, I’m in full agreement with this. It’s the best argument against the anti-Bonpo types. Often the arguments made against it’s legitimacy are the same as Theravadins arguing against the Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
If you have not yet read Drung, Deu, and Bon, I suggest you do so.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I plan on it, but is some specific relevancy here, or just generally?
"In any case we can hypothesize that the Bönpos absorbed elements of Buddhism without recognizing them as such, as some scholars maintain, or that they did so in order to survive to counter the great success of the Buddhist faith. The fact remains that in the contemporary Bönpo canon can be found some of the most important Buddhist texts, albeit with different titles, and even the iconography of Shenrab Miwoche emulates that of Buddha Śakyamuni. There may originally have been valid reasons for this work of transformation and adaptation of Buddhist elements, perhaps for the very preservation of authentic Bön teachings, but this principle was soon forgotten and the importance of the original traditions was neglected in favour of the philosophical teachings derived from Buddhism. It was probably at this juncture that the original Bön was classified as "Bön of Cause," that is as inferior to or preliminary to the "Bön of Fruit," and the authentic principles of the ancient Bön culture were misconstrued and almost excised by the protagonists of official Bön."

Malcolm wrote:
Drung, Deu, and Bon, pg. xvii-xviii.

So, with the exception of one small set of verses, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu opines that all the Bon vehicles of the result are wholly derived from Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 13th, 2020 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Yeah, I’m in full agreement with this. It’s the best argument against the anti-Bonpo types. Often the arguments made against it’s legitimacy are the same as Theravadins arguing against the Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
If you have not yet read Drung, Deu, and Bon, I suggest you do so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 11:03 PM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I think it is useful to divided our narratives into myths (Buddhas living in past eons), legends, (stories of mahāsiddhas, possibly historical people embedded in fantastic stories, Milarepa comes to mind, Gyerphung Lodpo, 25 disciples of Guru P, etc.,) and history (things that can be verified with empirically available facts). If people structured their thinking to slot parts of narratives into these different categories, then this would go a along way towards eliminating sectarian conflicts.

shagrath said:
That is great thought. I agree with you 100%. Just like historicity of e.g. christianity or judaism. Faithful can say outrageous things from Bible, and then comes historian  Bart Ehrman and slaps them with facts.

Two things come in mind:
1. Do you think that learning history is detrimental for dzogchen practice? Does one can go further into practice not caring about it?
2. What authors would you recommend for scientific approach to history of bön, dzogchen, nyingma, mahamudra, tibetan culture, etc?

Malcolm wrote:
I think the myths and legends found in Buddhism and Bon are important. They lend a sense of place and tradition. But when it comes to making truth claims on the basis of these myths and legends, this is where the trouble begins. For example, Virupa lived in the late 9th century. It is claimed he stopped the sun for three days while he and his two companions were on a drinking spree. You'd think that such a major astronomical event would be recorded somewhere in the world...but it isn't. Ergo, legend.

But when we find evidence in Indian treatises refuting Śṛī Simha by name, we have to conclude  Śṛī Simha was at the head of a genuine movement within Indian Buddhism in the mid-8th century called in Tibet, "rdzogs chen," and that whether one wants to accept the traditional accounts as facts or not, no one can deny the existence of Śṛī Simha nor can they deny he was the teacher of Vairocana. One can certainly debate what Dzogchen might have constituted at this early period, but we cannot deny that what took shape in Tibet as "rdzogs chen" is grounded in Indian Vajrayāna of the mid-8th century.  The contemporary record of Bonpo documents from the same period (eighth century) however, do not reveal any teachings even remotely resembling Buddhism, let alone rdzogs chen. The conclusion most students of history will then draw is that the Bonpos borrowed and adapted much Buddhist material to their own set of  cultural narratives, much as Taoists in China borrowed and adapted much Buddhism to their own cultural narratives.

This does not mean that Buddhists did not borrow Bonpo innovations in Dzogchen. As I point out in the intro to my forth-coming translation of the Blazing Lamp Tantra and its commentary, the scheme of six lamps is utterly absent from any Nyingma tantras in the Nyingma rgyud 'bum (for example, the term dkar 'jam rtsa is absent, etc.). On the Buddhist side of things, the six lamps seem first to appear in Longchenpa's Lama Yang thig and Zab mo yang thig in a set of texts called snyan brgyud. Since we know that there was interaction between Buddhists and Bonpos, especially between Nyingmapas and Bonpos, and since we know that Zhang Zhung Snyan Brgyud was written down after the seventeen tantras were revealed, but before Longchenpa, and given that the six lamps form a major part of that ZZNG textual cycle, the appearance of a similar list (though not precisely identical in all details) in Longchenpa's oeuvre bearing the title "snyan brgyud" leads one to speculate that Buddhists borrowed the scheme of six lamps from ZZNG and modified it to suit themselves. However, it is notable that in the Seven Treasures, there is no presentation at all of six lamps, only four. At present, the schemes of four and six lamps are very standard in various Buddhist Dzogchen curriculums. The scheme of six lamps earned its Buddhist canonicity from Longchenpa and also from the 15th century Zhitro cycle of Karma Lingpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:


smcj said:
Why do you exclude sex?

Malcolm wrote:
sex crimes...

smcj said:
Sex crimes are by definition not done with bodhicitta motivation. In the same sense I t is also possible to do an otherwise virtuous action with criminal intent.

As I just said, there is never a circumstance that allows for a negative mind since that cannot be a remedy to a situation.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, which is why I specified sex crimes, like rape, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Role of meditative absorption in Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Dharmasherab said:
Is this because they are not considered necessary in the path to enlightenment despite Buddhist texts explicitly mentioning their vital role (including Tibetan Buddhist texts)? Is this because teachers cannot teach beyond their experience, where most teachers of Tibetan Buddhism havnt reached such states in their meditation practice so they are unable to even recommend them? If so then does this mean that the teacher-student emphasis in Tibetan Buddhism is losing is rightful purpose in the Buddhist world, where it would be a safer approach for Tibetan Buddhists to develop some degree of self-reliance on their own learning from texts in addition to relying on teachers when it comes to the Sutrayana component of Tibetan Buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
The dhyānas are not profound, and create paths for rebirth in ordinary people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:
smcj said:
Of course, excluding sex crimes, these four can also be given a pass if performed with bodhicitta motivation.
Why do you exclude sex?

Malcolm wrote:
sex crimes...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Career Advice for a Young Nyingmapa
Content:


pema tsultrim said:
Nursing does sound like a heroic profession, and there is so much demand, if you have the stomach for it. You also work intensively for several days, then get the rest of the week off, so you can alternate in and out of intensive periods of practice even within each given week.

Malcolm wrote:
It also pays more than these other trades mentioned above and is more flexible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:
pema tsultrim said:
What is not acceptable is taking life, taking what is not given, speaking with intent to deceive, and sexual misconduct, the four basis of training. Of course, excluding sex crimes, these four can also be given a pass if performed with bodhicitta motivation.
Malcom, this probably seems like such a basic question but what actually qualifies as "sexual misconduct" within the Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist contexts?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, the same thing as in Hināyāna, defined by place, time, partner, and orifice (the latter seems to be basically an issue of hygiene).

Monastics are forbidden all sexual conduct in any place, at any time, with any partner, or any orifice; lay people are forbidden sexual conduct with the spouses of others, minors, those under guardianship, etc., fellatio, cunnilingus, and sodomy are general forbidden.

Time means sexual conduct is generally forbidden during the day; place means in public or in shrines, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



PeterC said:
If we had to be satisfied as to the accuracy of historical claims before receiving teachings, then we would never practice anything

Johnny Dangerous said:
I get what you are saying, but Bonpo historical narratives are on a whole other level, and sometimes harder to swallow than anything you come across in Mahayana. For example the idea that Buddha Shakyamuni was a student of Shenrab etc. Like I said, it’s really the specificity of these kinds of claims that makes them iffy, not that they aren’t empirically verifiable or something, which of course is true for all kinds of stuff we take for granted.

There is also a tone of ‘Buddhism stole all this’ from the occasional zealous Bonpo, while it’s nothing to take personally, I have seen this sort of attitude cause issues...socially at teachings. It’s especially silly when you examine what Bon also borrowed from Chos...even on a surface level. The Bon teachings I’ve been exposed to themselves were wonderful and I’m content to appreciate my opportunity to receive them without an expectation that they line up with my thinking exactly.

PeterC said:
True - they do seem excessive from my perspective.  But from the perspective of a Theravedan, the origin stories and claims of superiority of the Tantras are also a little hard to swallow...

Malcolm wrote:
As is the Theravada account of the origin of Abhidhamma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



PeterC said:
If we had to be satisfied as to the accuracy of historical claims before receiving teachings, then we would never practice anything

Johnny Dangerous said:
I get what you are saying, but Bonpo historical narratives are on a whole other level, and sometimes harder to swallow than anything you come across in Mahayana. For example the idea that Buddha Shakyamuni was a student of Shenrab etc. Like I said, it’s really the specificity of these kinds of claims that makes them iffy, not that they aren’t empirically verifiable or something, which of course is true for all kinds of stuff we take for granted.

There is also a tone of ‘Buddhism stole all this’ from the occasional zealous Bonpo, while it’s nothing to take personally, I have seen this sort of attitude cause issues...socially at teachings. It’s especially silly when you examine what Bon also borrowed from Chos...even on a surface level. The Bon teachings I’ve been exposed to themselves were wonderful and I’m content to appreciate my opportunity to receive them without an expectation that they line up with my thinking exactly.

treehuggingoctopus said:
I think that the history and what is to a great extent still the present status of Bon, both in Tibet and in diaspora, makes it rather inevitable, does it not? I mean, Bonpo belong(ed) to the subaltern, the history of Bon's involvement with Buddhism is pretty much a textbook example of how a marginalised, oppressed/ignored and continually erased community struggles to remake itself so as to survive. And, HHDL efforts notwithstanding, the conflict is still very far from over, I have witnessed some very disturbing expressions of anti-Bon prejudice coming from Buddhist teachers.

Malcolm wrote:
I think it is useful to divided our narratives into myths (Buddhas living in past eons), legends, (stories of mahāsiddhas, possibly historical people embedded in fantastic stories, Milarepa comes to mind, Gyerphung Lodpo, 25 disciples of Guru P, etc.,) and history (things that can be verified with empirically available facts). If people structured their thinking to slot parts of narratives into these different categories, then this would go a along way towards eliminating sectarian conflicts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 8:35 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:



tatpurusa said:
I just hope your actual dharma insight is more profound than your political one. Peace.

Malcolm wrote:
I am hopelessly bourgeois. Still voting for Sanders though.

tatpurusa said:
And I am hopelessly proletarian. Hoping for the best, even though if it seems chanceless considering the ever stronger might of corporate fascism.

Malcolm wrote:
The proletariat is dead. You're all just consumers now.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:



tatpurusa said:
The US wanting to be the world hegemon is the biggest risk to world safety, not the pathetical figure of clown Trump.
When will you notice that rest of the world does not need and want this hegemon?

Malcolm wrote:
Scrap NATO at your peril. I don't know about you, but I much prefer the liberal democracy of the Western Alliance to the alternative. In case you haven't noticed, the EU still very much wants to be a part of NATO, even though Trump has shaken their confidence in our participation.

tatpurusa said:
I just hope your actual dharma insight is more profound than your political one. Peace.

Malcolm wrote:
I am hopelessly bourgeois. Still voting for Sanders though.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Fair enough.

I’m glad that we’ve been able to find more common ground regarding this topic that seemed to be lacking earlier in the thread.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is common ground. I have received the bulk of the ZZNG from Chaphur Rinpoche in the Bay Area, who also taught me the basics of elemental calculation. I accept things on the basis of what they say in the text itself, not on the basis of their supposed history.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Pure vision is one thing; history quite another, as Norbu RInpoche remarks the book I mentioned above.

tatpurusa said:
This is exactly what I am interested in. So if you are generous enough - I would appreciate your thoughts by private message (as you told it is not suitable on a public board.) So if this is not just a pretext, you would share your thoughts with me privately.

Malcolm wrote:
What I can say is that one argument that could be made is that when practicing the visions, during the second vision one begins to develop clairvoyance, such as past lives and so on, and so the obvious rejoinder to anything I have put forward is to claim special knowledge based on yogic vision, similar to the Buddha's statements about past Buddhas and so on in his past lives. But these are just articles of faith, since they cannot be confirmed with ordinary perception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Then the Twelve Small Tantras are from a aural lineage not necessarily dependent on Buddhist Dzogchen as told by Nyingma....

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is his idea. I don't really share his opinion. When you compare them to say Vairocana's translations of the five early lungs -- the former betray a smoothness of composition that one really does not find in orally transmitted texts. That said, they are excellent little verses, and their commentary is even more interesting.

Regardless of origin, I think that many Bon teachings are valid Buddhadharma, even if I do not buy their historical narrative, but then, I don't necessarilyu buy all Buddhist historical narrative, like the Kālacakra dates for Buddha's lifetime. The study of Bon literature is absolutely vital to understanding Tibetan culture. There are so many useful and interesting things that Bon texts have to share.

I am sympathetic with their story, and am happy to admit they have long suffered oppression in the hands of Buddhists.

But if you ask me to just blindly accept their historical claims...can't do it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Also, what then is the origin of the Twelve Small Tantras, that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu said are authentic Bönpo Dzogchen implying not necessarily dependent on the specific Dzogchen Teachings that Tonpa Garab Dorje gave when he appeared?

Malcolm wrote:
I am aware that ChNN made this observation, I studied with Precious Vase with him directly, so I know exactly what he said about it. He said the twelve minor tantras do not constitute a path, and that everything in Bon Dzogchen that could be construed as a path was borrowed from Buddhism.

He used ZZNG as an example of aural lineages, where the teachings were preserved in kernal form, which could later be unpacked.

He made the same observation about this line from Chanting the Names of Mañjuśṛī, "ye shes mig gcig dri ma med," that is, "The single eye of pristine consciousness is immaculate."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Here we go again.

As shown above, even by yourself Malcolm, Dzogchen did not start with Tonpa Garab Dorje, nor did it start with Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, frankly, you need to read the Old Tibetan documents and read what they have to say about Shenrab, actual rituals that address Shenrab and so on. You need to get a subscription to Academia and read what Henk Belzer, etc., have to say on these issues. There is quite a lot of good scholarship on Bon these days. Their conclusions including Samten Karmay's, are pretty much the same as mine.

It is quite clear that, Shenrab has been subject to extensive reshaping from shaman to cosmic world teacher at the hands of the creative writing of Bonpos, beginning with Shenchen Luga. It is not an exaggeration to say that Bon as we know it today is largely his invention.

Of course, Sṛī Siṃha, etc., have also been subject to creative story-telling at the hands of Tibetans. It is simply that we have real third-party evidence of all these Indian figures, Garab Dorje included, and really none at all for these Bonpo figures. Pure vision is one thing; history quite another, as Norbu RInpoche remarks the book I mentioned above.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
By the beginning of this current eon, would it mean this Kalpa or Mahakalpa?

Malcolm wrote:
Mahākalapa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
By the beginning of this current eon, would it mean this Kalpa or Mahakalpa?

In any case, yeah it’s hard to know what aspects of Bön/Dharma Teachings may or may not be literal; but I have confidence that it is possible to know directly, as one progresses on the Path.

tatpurusa said:
Yes. Knowing directly is possible from both paths because both lineages are authentic. They are actually the same lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, which began in India, with Garab Dorje, Vajraprahela. Bonpo Dzogchen lineages split from the Buddhist one sometime in the late 9th, early 10th century. Just around the same time Bon ordination lineages split from the Buddhist Vinaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just as there are Buddhists myths, legends, and history, there are Bonpo myths, legend, and history.

tatpurusa said:
What is the meaning of myths, legend, and history in your opinion from the point of view of tögal visions?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't discuss thogal in public forums. It is not suitable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:


Pero said:
Funny you say that. A recent poll in Germany, about who the biggest threat to world peace is, was won by Donald Trump by a landslide...

Malcolm wrote:
Trump is not smart enough to stay in power forever, though he yearns for it, emulating his dictator buddies. He is out in 1 year or 5 at the most. If the people in the US are sufficiently smart, they will deny him a second term.

In the short term, of course Trump is a greater risk to world safety, but in the long run, no.

tatpurusa said:
The US wanting to be the world hegemon is the biggest risk to world safety, not the pathetical figure of clown Trump.
When will you notice that rest of the world does not need and want this hegemon?

Malcolm wrote:
Scrap NATO at your peril. I don't know about you, but I much prefer the liberal democracy of the Western Alliance to the alternative. In case you haven't noticed, the EU still very much wants to be a part of NATO, even though Trump has shaken their confidence in our participation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Well I assumed that Tonpa Khyeu Nangwa Dampa appeared during this kalpa or mahakalpa; but even if I was mistaken on that particular point; it does not contradict my overall point.

Malcolm wrote:
According to the myth, Nangwa Dampa did appear as the first buddha of this eon out of the realization of that buddha's dharmakāya, who lived in the first eon of a previous eon.

We should distinguish myth, legend, and history.

Just as there are Buddhists myths, legends, and history, there are Bonpo myths, legend, and history.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
tatpurusa said:
Here is the Bon lineage tree. No. 3. is Buddha Tonpa Shenrab.
See how after No. 9 Sangwa Düpa, who is Buddha Shakyamuni, it got forked and went to another lineage. No. 6 in that second lineage is Zhang-Zhung Garab Dorje (possibly same as Buddhist Garab Dorje), master of Manjushrimitra.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I have this. You can believe this Bonpo mythology if you want. I prefer the Buddhist mythology.

tatpurusa said:
Exactly my point here:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=32716#p515413

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, you misunderstood-- there is no chance Dzogchen existed in Tibet prior to the introduction of Buddhism. I was merely speaking to the mythology of the twelve teachers, not the issue of whether Dzogchen comes from India or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:
tatpurusa said:
You are a NATOist.

Malcolm wrote:
100%

I am also a globalist, I think George Soros is awesome, etc., everything that gives you cold sweats.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
RT is just an instrument of the Russian Gvt. They are a state run media conglomerate, like the BBC, CBC, etc. The difference is that I don't trust them. The Russians have a vested interest in undoing the Atlantic Alliance. I like the Atlantic Alliance. A weak Russia makes for a safer world.

Pero said:
Funny you say that. A recent poll in Germany, about who the biggest threat to world peace is, was won by Donald Trump by a landslide...

Malcolm wrote:
Trump is not smart enough to stay in power forever, though he yearns for it, emulating his dictator buddies. He is out in 1 year or 5 at the most. If the people in the US are sufficiently smart, they will deny him a second term.

In the short term, of course Trump is a greater risk to world safety, but in the long run, no.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
tatpurusa said:
Here is the Bon lineage tree. No. 3. is Buddha Tonpa Shenrab.
See how after No. 9 Sangwa Düpa, who is Buddha Shakyamuni, it got forked and went to another lineage. No. 6 in that second lineage is Zhang-Zhung Garab Dorje (possibly same as Buddhist Garab Dorje), master of Manjushrimitra.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I have this. You can believe this Bonpo mythology if you want. I prefer the Buddhist mythology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:


Sādhaka said:
To me Dzogchen does allow for two Supreme Nirmāṇakāya‘s.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it really doesn't. Why? Because Dzogchen teachings do not even assert that Garab Dorje was a supreme nirmanakāya.


Sādhaka said:
“And the origin of Dzogchen in the current Kalpa or Mahakakpa according to the Dzogchen Tantras is Khyeu Nangwa Dampa; who appeared much longer ago than Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche’s appearance 4,000 or 18,000 years ago.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhist mythology maintains that Dzogchen teachings actually precede Nangwa Dampa:
In the first eon unfathomable eons ago, in a buddhafield called Natural Array, our teacher, the perfect complete buddha, the greatly compassionate and skillful teacher, offered a golden vajra to a buddha named Great Beautiful Flower and generated the intent to attain supreme awakening.

In his second birth he was born in a northern buddhafield called “Movement of the Wind” as the son of a householder named Excellent Generosity and his wife, Generosity of Supreme Virtue. The town was named Ox-tailed. The son’s name was Rosary of Gems. When he reached 25 years of age, he went to a cave on the eastern side of that continent called Gathering of the Ḍākinīs and sat in the presence of a perfect buddha called Wheel of Excellent Conduct. Having offered a silk scarf and prostrations, he listened carefully to the Dharma. He then passed away.

Again, in place called “Island that Intoxicates with Bliss,” he was born to a man named Light of Lightening and a women named Beauty. The town was called “Holding the Sky” and his name was Generous Hand. At that time, for five years he heard the Dharma from a teacher called Virtuous Wisdom. He then remained in the equipoise of samadhi for a period of seven years. When he reached the age of twenty-five he attained manifest perfect buddhahood on on the peak of a mountain called Arranged Heap of Precious Gems.
This is the origin of the twelve teachers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



tatpurusa said:
Because he was Tibetan, not Zhag-Zhung. Dzogchen at that time was in Zhang-Zhung, not in Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
Then this pretty much kills Bonpo claims that Vairocana could have had Dzogchen teachings, since he was Tibetan too, and not from Zhang Zhung -- your logic, not mine.

tatpurusa said:
Not at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Totally.

According to the 12th century klong sde history, the Vajra Bridge, Vairocana was eight years old when he was placed in a translation training program at Samye. He was sixteen when he was sent to India. If Dzogchen teachings existed in Zhang Zhung at that time, it would not have been necessary at all for Trisrong Detsen to send Vairocana to India, especially if the child already knew Dzogchen teachings from Zhang Zhung.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Perhaps Vairotsana received Bön Dzogchen, yet never had any reason to transmit it to anyone else.

Malcolm wrote:
If the Bonpos had Dzogchen teachings circa 770, why would Trisrong Detsen send a teenager to India to recover them? It does not make any sense whatsoever to make this kind of claim.

tatpurusa said:
Because he was Tibetan, not Zhag-Zhung. Dzogchen at that time was in Zhang-Zhung, not in Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
Then this pretty much kills Bonpo claims that Vairocana could have had Dzogchen teachings, since he was Tibetan too, and not from Zhang Zhung -- your logic, not mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Conspiracy theories are birthed in paranoia.

tatpurusa said:
With the very same logic, if you label the whole of RT just agitprop as you did, you qualify as a conspiracy theorist.
I bet you still believe in Russian meddling ...

Malcolm wrote:
RT is just an instrument of the Russian Gvt. They are a state run media conglomerate, like the BBC, CBC, etc. The difference is that I don't trust them. The Russians have a vested interest in undoing the Atlantic Alliance. I like the Atlantic Alliance. A weak Russia makes for a safer world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Perhaps Vairotsana received Bön Dzogchen, yet never had any reason to transmit it to anyone else.

Malcolm wrote:
If the Bonpos had Dzogchen teachings circa 770, why would Trisrong Detsen send a teenager to India to recover them? It does not make any sense whatsoever to make this kind of claim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
And as you’ve also mentioned before, Guru Chowang, the revealer of the Seven Line Prayer of Guru Rinpoche, said that true Bön is authentic Dzogchen Dharma as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Guru Chowang says positive things about Bon, but he imagines Tongpa Shenrab was from Zhang Zhung, which he also sites as the location of Olmo Lungring:
In order to tame the the confusion of ignorance, the root of samsara, at Wolmo Lungring in the land of Zhang Zhung the hidden treasure of compassion arrived in the form of Shenrab Miwoche [gshen rab mi bo che, i.e. the supreme one of the Shen clan, the greatest of men]. The hidden treasure was concealed in a single intention by all the Tathāgatas in the mind of Shenrab, and he taught the nine vehicles of Bon.
So he also does not really accept the idea that Shenrab was born outside the region of the Himalayas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Who was also a Bönpo, and even upheld Bön as authentic Dzogchen Dharma until the end of his life; even though his primary interest had become Buddhist Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
According to whom I wonder. Certainly there are zero contemporary records that can support this claim. And how would this happen, since ZZNG was a single lineage teaching, according to the claims of ZZNG itself until quite late, and the rest of Bon Dzogchen are all termas dating from the 11th century onward. Certainly Bonpos claim Vairocana as one of their own, but it does not really make much sense, honestly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
The bottom line for me, is that I have no issues with anyone stating that Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche existed, or even that he appeared 18,000 years ago.


Malcolm wrote:
I have no issue with people saying that Jesus is my lord and savior, likewise, I don't believe it, just as I don't believe that Tonpa Shenrab came to Tibet in the middle of the last ice age.

tatpurusa said:
No Bonpo has ever stated that Tonpa Shenrab lived in Tibet, ever. And you should know it. You are just being demagogic here, come on !!! You are capable of much better than that.

Malcolm wrote:
Tonpa Shenrab mostly certainly was imagined to have visited the region we presently refer to as Tibet, regardless of what it was called in the past. Of course, Namkhai Norbu RInpoche presents significant evidence that Shenrab was in fact not a foreign teacher at all, but was from a native clan located in what was once termed Zhang Zhung, and now is referred to as Western Tibet.

Moreover, clan histories such as that of Lce clan in Mangyul, point to a cultural origin in "Tazig" as well. The Khon very likely were a part of this eastern movement of Iranian-speaking people into Tibet as well, since their clan history and the clan history of the Lce resemble each other strongly, but differ on certain points as well. It is possible that that the six brothers who mentioned in the origin of the lCe clan and the three brothers mentioned in the origin of the Khon clan are based on the notion of the Amesha Spenta emanations of Ahura Mazda.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All Tibetan scripts descend from Gupta era scripts, including Zhang zhung dmar, and while Tonmi Sambhota himself may be a legendary personage, it is pretty clear there was no official writing system in Tibet prior to the 7th century.

tatpurusa said:
You seem to be joking here.
Someone with your amount of expertise should know that the origins of Dzogchen were non-scriptual, transmitted at the beginning with mind-to-mind only transmissions, and later on by oral transmission.
Just as even the later teachings of Shakyamuni were note written down (but memorized) for hundreds of years.
Writing down began much-much-much later down the line (ie. lineage)
So scriptural evidence has exactly zero evidence regarding the origins of Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
The so called rgyal dgongs rgyud is not a mind to mind transmission. Garab Dorje was a Buddha, therefore he had all three kāyas: Samantabhadra is a name for his mind, just as Vajrasattva is a name for his speech. As for the 6.4 million slokas of Dzogchen tantras, these were written down by Mañjuśṛīmitra and divided into the three series, according to the lo rgyus chen mo, and then divided into the four cycles by Sṛī Simha, which were then given to Jñānasūtra and Vimalamitra, etc. The transmission for these texts however was given in symbols, rather than extensive discourses, hence the symbolic vidyādhara lineage. Finally, Vimalamitra, according the lo rgyus chen mo, translated these texts and gave them to  Tingzin Zangpo (who hid them in Zhva Gonpa), initiating the so called aural lineage of esteemed persons. However, this aural lineage was accompanied by texts from the beginning, since according to tradition, Vimalamitra translated many Dzogchen tantras into Tibetan, some where hidden as treasures, and others, like the thirteen later lungs, were part of the bka' ma tradition. Naturally, the historical accounts given in the so called sems sde histories and klong sde histories are represent an earlier tradition of Dzogchen teachings than the lo rgyus chen mo, and are significantly different form the lo rgyus chen mo in terms of the details they present. We have independent confirmation of the existence of Sṛī Simha, etc., in the form of an Indian polemical treatise, which dates from the late 10th century and was authored by Mañjuśṛīkīrti, that refutes the views of Sṛī Simha by name and the movement he presented. So one thing we can be quite confident about is that there was a guy name Sṛī Simha, he was a student of Mañjuśṛīmitra, he taught a radical doctrine whereby he asserted only the completion stage was necessary. Finally, we can also be certain that there was a Tibetan named Bagor Vairocana, who was the first person to translated Dzogchen texts in Tibetan, and we can also be certain that Sṛī Simha was a contemporary of Trisong Detsen. Before this period, it is extremely unlikely there was anything remotely like the teaching of the Great Perfection in Tibet. Dzogchen is wholly an Indian-inspired Vajrayāna movement. There is really no evidence that suggests otherwise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
The bottom line for me, is that I have no issues with anyone stating that Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche existed, or even that he appeared 18,000 years ago.


Malcolm wrote:
I have no issue with people saying that Jesus is my lord and savior, likewise, I don't believe it, just as I don't believe that Tonpa Shenrab came to Tibet in the middle of the last ice age.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



tatpurusa said:
Yes. Because I remember the flame wars against Bon on e-sangha.

Malcolm wrote:
There were no flame wars against Bon on E-Sangha. Your memory is faulty.

tatpurusa said:
Ahh no? So why did they get banned according to your faulty memory??

Malcolm wrote:
The Bon forum was suspended because members of the board began to complain to the staff about claims certain Bonpos were making about Śākyamuni Buddha, as well as the origins of the Great Perfection, and it was decided at the time by the staff that the competing historical narratives of Buddhadharma and Bon did not fit well together. Also people could not understand why a nonBuddhist religion was being allowed space on a Buddhist board. Therefore, the forum was suspended.

There were a lot of issues at E-Sangha -- competing narratives about the nature of Buddhadharma led to three way split-- Theravadins went their own way with Dhammawheel, David provided this space for Mahāyānis here, and the Zen folks went their separate way. Because Bon is a naturalized Tibetan form of Mahāyāna Buddhism (like all the other Tibetan Buddhist schools), whether they want to admit this or not, I guess David decided that they deserved a place here too.

As there are few Theravadins here, and few Zen people to complain about Bon, the Bon forum has persisted largely in the form of one person making frequent posts, as well as a couple of other folks with Bonpo connections who post infrequently.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



Sādhaka said:
Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche appeared sometime between 18,000 years ago and https://issuu.com/bongaruda/docs/when_was_tonpa_shenrap_born.

Malcolm wrote:
Incidentally, the information this article provides for Norbu Rinpoche's dates for the birth of Tonpa Shenrab are wrong. The correct date is 1917 BCE (see page 158, Drung, Deu and Bon ), not 3927 BCE. Norbu marks this date as the beginning of Tibetan history, and it has been widely adopted by Tibetan nationalists. Norbu's Rinpoche's work in this area, by his own admission, was driven by nationalist sentiment and a desire to provide Tibetans with an ancient history on equal footing with Persia, India, and China.

Some of his theories, such as the one that writing existed in Tibet prior to the 7th century, for example, lack convincing evidence. All Tibetan scripts descend from Gupta era scripts, including Zhang zhung dmar, and while Tonmi Sambhota himself may be a legendary personage, it is pretty clear there was no official writing system in Tibet prior to the 7th century.

Still, he opened up important areas of research into pre-Buddhist Tibetan culture and history, along with Samten Karmay.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Simon E. said:
And yet you choose to express that response on a forum clearly labelled “ A Discussion Forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana BUDDHISM”...

tatpurusa said:
Yes. Because I remember the flame wars against Bon on e-sangha.

Malcolm wrote:
There were no flame wars against Bon on E-Sangha. Your memory is faulty.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 12th, 2020 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
lelopa said:
when I take a look at historic cards - where Buddhism spread in the 6th or 7th century -
and where Zhangzhung and Oddiyana was.....
maybe Bon & Buddhism have the same source of Dzogchen etc

Malcolm wrote:
Bon Dzogchen is quite excellent. It does not mean one must accept the Bonpo alternate version of Tibetan history hook, line, and sinker.

Tibetans, both Buddhist and Bon alike, picked up the Indian literary habit of historical puffery, wild exaggerations about antiquity, and so on.


Sādhaka said:
What it comes down to, is that in this epoch there were two Supreme Nirmanakayas: Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche and the Buddha Śākyamuni. Tonpa Garab Dorje is a Emanation of the latter.

Malcolm wrote:
How is that possible? Tonpa Shenrab lived before Śākyamuni Buddha.

Sādhaka said:
In Buddhism as you know there are 1,002 Supreme Nirmanakaya’s in this Fortunate Æon, each appearing in I’m not sure what the intervals are....

Malcolm wrote:
Then, you must have a reason explaining why Tonpa Shenrab's name is missing from all Dzogchen tantras found in the Nyingma Gyudbum, not to mention the Bhadrakalpa Sūtra.

Sādhaka said:
Now I don’t pretend to know the full meaning of that, but I think that it is safe to say that it allows for two Supreme Nirmanakayas.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually it does not.

Sādhaka said:
Vajrayana appeared in Odiyana or Uddiyana, India, the Golden Isles (Java/Indonesia), Sri Lanka, Kyrgyzstan, Afghanistan, etc. Then why not the Yungdrung Vehicle(s) in Shang-Shung or Zhang-Zhung and maybe even Iran?

Malcolm wrote:
Certainly Bonpos seek to place the origin of their religion outside of Tibet as well, in Iranian Central Asia. But there is not much evidence for an organized "Bon" religion prior to the early 11th century. Buddhist caricatures of so-called "Bonpos" during the imperial period are not reliable. Bonpo accounts of the Imperial period likewise are too late to be of much use, and also are not reliable.

Sādhaka said:
My main inspirations are the Dzogchen Tantras & the Twelve Primordial Dzogchen Teachers and Yungdrung Bön and Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche.

Malcolm wrote:
The myths of the twelve Teachers of Dzogchen are inspiring, but it is mythology, and quite late, textually speaking, originating from the treasure cache of Zhangton Tashi Dorje, which was revealed circa 1118, and are quite specific to Dzogchen man ngag sde. The detailed account of these twelve teachers are found in the lo rgyus chen mo, composed by Zhangton. He explains too why the twelve teachers are the twelve teachers, and why Śākyamuni is included among them, even though the latter never actually taught Dzogchen directly in this world. The reason is as follows. The conventional account of a Buddha's life is that they perform twelve deeds. All Buddhas do this. But the twelve teachers are unique in that they perform 108 deeds: thirty-six for the body, speech, and mind of the dharmakāya; thirty-six for the body, speech, and mind of the sambhogakāya, and thirty-six for the body, speech, and mind of the nirmanakāya. So these twelve teachers are considered unique by virtue of their 108 deeds, and are unlike all other buddhas for this reason. The inner meaning of this is pretty clear: 12 deeds X nine yānas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
My mistake.

But okay, the Dzogchen subforum can be just as much for Bön as for Nyingma.

Malcolm wrote:
Bon Dzogchen is quite excellent. It does not mean one must accept the Bonpo alternate version of Tibetan history hook, line, and sinker.

Tibetans, both Buddhist and Bon alike, picked up the Indian literary habit of historical puffery, wild exaggerations about antiquity, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
In the Bön subforum.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this thread is in the Dzogchen forum.

Buddhism Forum<Buddhism Discussion Forum<Bodhisattvacarya<Tibetan Buddhism<Dzogchen


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:
justsit said:
The first thing to check on any news report is the source.

RT News is questionable at best. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/rt-news/

tatpurusa said:
I would say mediabiasfactcheck.com itself is questionable at the most. They were established in 2015 exactly in order to discourage people from reading other sources of information, that the circles behind mainstream media want to censor.
Within the last couple of years, the great multinational corporations like google, youtube, facebook, twitter and others also began censoring content, based on the same MSM criteria.
It's just their desperate attempt to discredit all diverging sources of information in order not to lose their narrative and keep people well indoctrinated.
Too bad at least in the US they seem to be quite successful in it.

Malcolm wrote:
Conspiracy theories are birthed in paranoia.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All evidence suggests Bon evolved as a native adaptation of Indian Buddhism between the 8th and early 11th century.

tingdzin said:
This is quite wrong. "All the evidence" does not allow that conclusion at all. When I have time I will refute this in detail. For now, since you are a Sanskritist, you ought to read Davidson (in one of his two books on Tibet, easy to find) on the absurdity of trying to find Sanskrit equivalents to Tibetan Dzogchen terms, like "gzhon nu 'bum sku".

Malcolm wrote:
There is quite a large number of Tibetan dzogchen terms easily reducible to Sanskrit equivalents. And, there is no evidence that term in particular evolved in a bonpo milieu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 1:48 PM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:



tatpurusa said:
Me too. In this concrete case within the article, the simplest and most plausible explanation is the one provided by RT: Iraq and the Middle East people in general do not want and need US troop there (except for Saudi Arabia and other wahhabis). That simple. But this does not coincide with the interest of some circles masquerading as "the" US national interest.
Also, the US bringing stability and democracy to the Middle East .. give me a break!

Malcolm wrote:
I fully agree with that the US has no business in the Mideast. Though our excuse for being there is “security, “ our presence there has lead to a situation where everyone is less secure, and six decades of foreign policy incompetence on the part of the USA caused it.

tatpurusa said:
Now this is what I call agitprop (read the following).
You can call RT whatever you want, in this particular case they wrote the truth. So yes, it is better to read both sides.
https://www.state.gov/the-u-s-continued-partnership-with-iraq/ America is a force for good in the Middle East. Our military presence in Iraq is to continue the fight against ISIS and as the Secretary has said, we are committed to protecting Americans, Iraqis, and our coalition partners. We have been unambiguous regarding how crucial our D-ISIS mission is in Iraq. At this time, any delegation sent to Iraq would be dedicated to discussing how to best recommit to our strategic partnership—not to discuss troop withdrawal, but our right, appropriate force posture in the Middle East. Today, a NATO delegation is at the State Department to discuss increasing NATO’s role in Iraq, in line with the President’s desire for burden sharing in all of our collective defense efforts. There does, however, need to be a conversation between the U.S. and Iraqi governments not just regarding security, but about our financial, economic, and diplomatic partnership. We want to be a friend and partner to a sovereign, prosperous, and stable Iraq.

Malcolm wrote:
One does not have to read both sides, one merely needs to study the postwar history of the middle-East. The only people with any stake in the game are religious sectarians. That’s what we have been seeing since 9/11.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 11:33 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:



tatpurusa said:
Well .. at least they write stuff that the US agitprop (aka mainstream media) would never publish.
All media are lying .. the only possibility to arrive to the truth is interpolating between all sides. This is only possible if you read different sides, fully knowing that they are all lying.
Otherwise you remain fully indoctrinated.

Malcolm wrote:
I prefer Ockham’s razor.

tatpurusa said:
Me too. In this concrete case within the article, the simplest and most plausible explanation is the one provided by RT: Iraq and the Middle East people in general do not want and need US troop there (except for Saudi Arabia and other wahhabis). That simple. But this does not coincide with the interest of some circles masquerading as "the" US national interest.
Also, the US bringing stability and democracy to the Middle East .. give me a break!

Malcolm wrote:
I fully agree with that the US has no business in the Mideast. Though our excuse for being there is “security, “ our presence there has lead to a situation where everyone is less secure, and six decades of foreign policy incompetence on the part of the USA caused it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 11:13 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:
justsit said:
The first thing to check on any news report is the source.

RT News is questionable at best. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/rt-news/

Malcolm wrote:
Russkie agitprop for sure.

tatpurusa said:
Well .. at least they write stuff that the US agitprop (aka mainstream media) would never publish.
All media are lying .. the only possibility to arrive to the truth is interpolating between all sides. This is only possible if you read different sides, fully knowing that they are all lying.
Otherwise you remain fully indoctrinated.

Malcolm wrote:
I prefer Ockham’s razor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 10:50 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:
justsit said:
The first thing to check on any news report is the source.

RT News is questionable at best. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/rt-news/

Malcolm wrote:
Russkie agitprop for sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 10:47 AM
Title: Re: A simplistic statement
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
The "meeting the Dharmadhatu" doesn't happen just with stillness, though my understanding is that developing stillness really ups ones chances. In fact, it seems to be introduced just as often from being in movement, or the relationship between stillness and movement.

In basic terms, shamatha alone isn't enough, and stillness alone can't break through, this is true for any Buddhist vehicle, is my understanding.

There is a difference between simply experiencing the mind in a still state, and grokking the nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s is not what meant by “still.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 10:44 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu also wrote that the Twelve Minor Tantras and the Zhang-Zhung Nyen-Gyud specifically, are authentic Bönpo Dzogchen, and that the Zhang-Zhung Nyen-Gyud descends from Tapihritsa himself from before the time of Garab Dorje; the implication being that the core of Bönpo Dzogchen does not directly depend on Buddhist Dzogchen.

Perhaps he meant Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche, because I do not think that Tapihritsa was that early. Or possibly an editing error somehow? In any case, see pages 11 and 12 of An Oral Commentary to Narag Tongtrug.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN specified that only the 12 minor tantras, which are the core of the outer cycle of ZZNG, were pre Buddhist. I think his opinion is overly generous.

Tapihritsa, according to Bon accounts, lived in 8th century, contemporary with Shri Singha , much later than Garab Dorje.

All evidence suggests Bon evolved as a native adaptation of Indian Buddhism between the 8th and early 11th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 9:34 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



tatpurusa said:
For me personally this debate is uninteressant. What counts, is that there is an authentic lineage of Dzogchen, that split into two at a certain point of time. Both forks are authentic and go back to the very same source before that split - so what?
The rest is politics.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they are both authentic in so far as they both produce realization, but Bonpo Dzogchen depends on Buddhist Dzogchen, as in so many other things.

Könchok Thrinley said:
Please elaborate how it depends on Buddhist Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s pretty obvious when you know Tibetan and you know the history of the transmission of Dharma to Tibet. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has provided a pretty clear portrait of pre-Buddhist religion in Tibet, and it his opinion that Bon dzogchen largely depends Buddhist dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 9:31 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



tatpurusa said:
For me personally this debate is uninteressant. What counts, is that there is an authentic lineage of Dzogchen, that split into two at a certain point of time. Both forks are authentic and go back to the very same source before that split - so what?
The rest is politics.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they are both authentic in so far as they both produce realization, but Bonpo Dzogchen depends on Buddhist Dzogchen, as in so many other things.

tatpurusa said:
Whatever you want.
Your opinion on this one for me is not relevant, because I remember all too well of your anti-Bon stance and those stupid wars with "dorjepizza" in your incarnation called "Namdrol" at e-sangha, resulting in we all know what.

Malcolm wrote:
I’ve never had an anti-Bon stance. I just don’t accept certain bonpo claims about the history of Bon, and that often makes bonpos upset. I also don’t accept certain claims in traditional Buddhist history, this also makes some Buddhists upset. So you should understand I upset everyone, Bon and Buddhist alike.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:



tatpurusa said:
For me personally this debate is uninteressant. What counts, is that there is an authentic lineage of Dzogchen, that split into two at a certain point of time. Both forks are authentic and go back to the very same source before that split - so what?
The rest is politics.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they are both authentic in so far as they both produce realization, but Bonpo Dzogchen depends on Buddhist Dzogchen, as in so many other things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
tatpurusa said:
According to Bön, Garab Dorje recieved his teachings from masters of the Bön Dzogchen lineage. Nyingmapas vehemently deny this of course.

Malcolm wrote:
For very good reason, it isn't true.

tatpurusa said:
I am not about to initiate a discussion on this, just mentioned it as an info.
BTW Buddhists say the contrary: that Dzogchen went from them to Bön.
So, just pick what your preferred beliefs are.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddhist position is demonstrable, the Bonpo position isn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 1:30 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:


Nemo said:
The spread of stories about arson are being pushed by paid AI. You can probably guess who is behind them.


Malcolm wrote:
Pretty funny Nemo. The point is actually that when people set fires, purposefully and accidentally, as they did in Australia, Cali, and other fires, climate change takes a manageable fire and makes it much worse. No need to see a conspiracy here.

Nemo said:
I have a buddy who is a Wall Street quant and he studies these trends with statistical models for trading companies, but I forgot you were an expert on everything. He doesn't know who is pushing it, but an algorithm is making the stories more visible.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because the more people click on them, the more the algorithm present them to others with similar data profiles. This is not a conspiracy, this just reflects how human beings react to bad news, and the way news is presented through social media, etc. And yes, since I have a certificate in web programming, I do understand how this works, from a technical perspective. Algorithms are stupid, not intelligent. GIGO.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
tatpurusa said:
According to Bön, Garab Dorje recieved his teachings from masters of the Bön Dzogchen lineage. Nyingmapas vehemently deny this of course.

Malcolm wrote:
For very good reason, it isn't true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Practical difference between Bön and Nyingma Dzogchen
Content:
tatpurusa said:
As far as I know the only real difference in terms of practice is that in Bön (at least according to Zhang-Zhung Nyengyüd) trekchö and tögal are considered as two aspects of the same practice and practiced together, whereas in Nyingma Dzogchen they are considered two different practices.

One can say that basically the difference is in the lineage, not in the practice. According to Bön, Garab Dorje recieved his teachings from masters of the Bön Dzogchen lineage. Nyingmapas vehemently deny this of course.

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhist Dzogchen, trekcho and togal are not actually different practices either: but they are separated into two for convenience of explaining different aspects of the path, just as they are in Bon texts like Heartdrops of Dharmakāya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: A simplistic statement
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
The stilled mind, unconditioned, encounters the dharmadhātu (i.e. itself), and awakening occures.

Thoughts? Is this an appropriate summation of Buddhadharma or silly nonsense?

Malcolm wrote:
A stilled mind is just a mind in a state of śamatha, unless you mean a mind free of all extremes of proliferation, as in Śantideva's statement:

"When neither an entity nor a nonentity
remain before the mind,
since there is no other alternative,
the mind is pacified."

If that is what you mean, then basically, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:
mandog said:
I think a lot of the confusion is that people don’t want to acknowledge that there is a middle ground between Sogyal being a Buddha and Sogyal being a complete scoundrel. I think it is likely that whatever he was falls somewhere between those two extremes.

Queequeg said:
Then he's just ordinary... and not appropriate to hold as a guru, no? That's the big controversy, isn't it? The point that causes so many people to be so distressed?

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not the controversy. Most Buddhist gurus are ordinary people, who have expertise in certain ritual systems and the conferral of certain kinds of teachings.

Fundamental to this system is pure vision. Pure vision is from our side. We are supposed to understand that the guru from whom we receive empowerment is same as the buddhas of the three times. If we do not have this idea, it is held, than we cannot benefit from their teaching. As practitioners on the path, we are supposed to understand the universe and all the beings in it as members of the same mandala, sublime deities, buddhas; not hell beings, pretas, etc. We exercise our pure perception by practicing deity yoga and guru yoga. When we realize that everything has never been different than the state of buddhahood, and that everything has always been the state of buddhahood from the very beginning, this realization is called mahāmudra, the great symbol; or mahāsandhi, the great perfection.

The controversy exists because there are teachings which indicate that prospective students need to be vetted on the basis of their intelligence, devotion, and lack of concepts. Likewise, gurus are vetted on the basis of their education, expertise, and personal qualities, but not their ultimate realization—how can any normal person perceive that?

Plainly put, sometimes qualified gurus pick unqualified students, and this causes problems. Likewise, qualified students sometimes pick unqualified gurus. Thus, some in the Sogyal scandal think Sogyal was an unqualified guru. Others think that Sogyal chose unqualified students, or students who broke their samaya. Frankly, from a traditional point of view, there is no way one can argue that those letter-writing students did not injure their samaya when they composed their letter, since they all received empowerments from and with Sogyal. The whole point of samaya vows is to maintain the integrity of the Vajrayāna Sangha. The very first samaya vow is that one should not harshly criticize one's guru. This is even worse than criticizing the Buddha himself. The second one is that one should not cause conflict with vajra siblings.

Vajrayāna disciples are expected to regard everything their guru does as sacred, unless it directly violates Dharma ethics. Hitting a disciple with the intention to benefit them is well within that range. It is not acceptable in our culture, but it is quite acceptable in Tibetan culture. Having multiple sexual partners (if unmarried) is fine, so is being a sybarite.

What is not acceptable is taking life, taking what is not given, speaking with intent to deceive, and sexual misconduct, the four basis of training. Of course, excluding sex crimes, these four can also be given a pass if performed with bodhicitta motivation.

Anyone can leave the company of a given guru with or without cause, but if someone has taken samaya vows with someone who is qualified to give them, then one should never harshly criticize that person.

When it comes to Dharma ethics, we in the West tend to treat these as legal frameworks, but they are not. If anything, the Rigpa affair points to the deficit in corporate-style Buddhism; where feeder programs are created in order to introduce people into the path; who are in turn vetted for their actual interest in higher teachings and so on. Most of the people in Rigpa are not Vajrayāna students, just as most of the people in Shambhala Centers are not Vajrayāna students. So if these people think that Sogyal and Mukpo suck, there is no problem. But it becomes a problem when one enters into a samaya relationship.

The whole system of Vajrayāna is based on the unassailable authority of the guru. So, caveat emptor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 11th, 2020 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:


Sonam Wangchug said:
It might just be my perception, but I seem to detect a much different tone about Sogyal Rinpoche than you had when this had originally happened and in the trending threads at that time. (in which you seemed to be much more critical of him)

Malcolm wrote:
Well, when there is smoke on a hill, there is generally fire. I am not defending Sogyal's temperament, I am defending his student's right to regard him however they wish. Also, I have had time and opportunity to speak with people who both have left Sogyal in tremendous disappointment, and people who never experienced anything from him other than kindness, and people in between, whose experience of him was mixed. I have also seen that certain people have sought to use the Sogyal affair to smear Vajrayāna in general, namely a certain people who know nothing about our tradition. This bugs me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 10th, 2020 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Time For A Republic.
Content:
Simon E. said:
So Prince Harry and his wife are to step back from their Royal roles.
It is to be hoped that this is a harbinger of the UK’s becoming a Republic. It’s well overdue.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I suggest you put your constitution in writing, beforehand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 10th, 2020 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Aemilius said:
Etymology

Tantra (Sanskrit: तन्त्र) literally means "loom, warp, weave".

Malcolm wrote:
This is not how Buddhist tantras define themselves.

Generally, "tantra" is defined as A  "continuum" from "tan" 4, and specificically 5.

4	tan	3 cl. 8. P. A1. %{-no4ti} , %{-nute4} (3. pl. %{-nva4te} [%{A4-} and %{vi-tanvate4} RV.] AV. xii , 1 , 13 ; Impv. %{-nu} [%{a4va} and %{vi4-tanuhi} RV. ; cf. Pa1n2. 6-4 , 106 Va1rtt. 1 Pat.] RV. i , 120 , 11 ; %{-nuSva} RV. ; Subj. 2. sg. %{-nuthAs} , v , 79 , 9 ; 1. du. %{-navAvahai} , i , 170 , 4 ; impf. 3. pl. %{a4tanvata} , x , 90 , 6 AV. vii , 5 , 4 ; pf. P. %{tatA4na} , once %{tAt-} RV. i , 105 , 12 ; 2. sg. %{tata4ntha} [RV.] , class. %{tenitha} [Pa1n2. 7-2 , 64 Ka1s3.] ; A1. 1. 2. 3. sg. [%{A4-}] %{tatane} , %{[abhi4-]tatniSe} , %{[vi4-]tatne} RV. ; 3. sg. irr. %{tate} , i , 83 , 5 ; 3. pl. %{tatnire4} [164 , 5 %{vi4-} AV. xiv , 1 , 45] or %{ten-} [iv , 14 , 4 (%{vi-}) &c. ; cf. Pa1n2. 6-4 , 99] ; aor. P. %{a4tan} RV. vi , 61 , 9 ; %{[A4-]atAn} , 67 , 6 AV. ix , 4 , 1 ; %{[pa4ri-} , %{vi4-]atanat} RV. ; %{[anv-A4]atAMsIt} VS. xv , 53 ; %{atAnIt} MaitrS. ; %{tata4nat} , %{[abhi4-]-ta4nAma} , %{-ta4nan} RV. ; 2. pl. %{ataniSTa} Pa1n2. 2-4 , 79 Ka1s3. ; 3. du. %{atAniSTAm} Bhat2t2. xv , 91 ; A1. %{atata} or %{ataniSTa} , %{atathAs} or %{ataniSThAs} Pa1n2. 2-4 , 79 ; 3. pl. %{a4tnata} RV. ; %{tata4nanta} , i , 52 , 11 ; 1. sg. %{atasi} pl. %{ataMsmahi} Br. ; fut. 2nd %{taMsya4te} S3Br. ; fut. 1st %{[vi-]tAyitA} BhP. viii , 13 , 36 ; p. pr. %{tanva4t} , %{-vAna4} ; pf. %{tatanva4s} ; ind. p. %{tatvA} , %{-tvA4ya} , %{-ta4tya} Br. ; [%{vi-}] %{tAya} BhP. vii , 10 , 2 ; inf. tantum Br. ; Pass. %{tAya4te} RV. i , 110 , 1 & [p. %{-ya4mAna}] x , 17 , 7 AV. &c. ; %{tanyate} Pa1n2. 6-4 , 44 ; aor. %{atAyi} Br.) to extend , spread , be diffused (as light) over , shine , extend towards , reach to RV. &c. ; to be protracted , continue , endure RV. ; to stretch (a cord) , extend or bend (a bow) , spread , spin out , weave RV. &c. ; to emboss S3Br. xiv , 7 , 2 , 5 ; to prepare (a way for) RV. i , 83 , 5 ; to direct (one's way , %{gatim}) towards Nalo7d. i , 20 ; to propagate (one's self or one's family , %{tanUs} , %{tantum}) Hariv. 2386 BhP. ii , 3 , 8 ; to (spread i.e. to) speak (words) Das3. i , 87 ; to protract RV. v , 79 , 9 Katha1s. li , 226 ; to put forth , show , manifest , display , augment Ragh. iii , 25 S3ak. Bhartr2. &c. (Pass. to be put forth or extended , increase Bhat2t2.) ; to accomplish , perform (a ceremony) RV. VS. ii , 13 AV. iv , 15 , 16 S3Br. &c. ; to sacrifice , xiii , 2 , 5 , 2 Kaul. 127 ; to compose (a literary work) Hemac. Caurap. Sch. ; to render (any one thirsty , double acc.) Kuval. 455: Desid. %{titaniSati} , %{-taMsati} , %{-tAMs-} Pa1n2. 6-4 , 17 ; vii , 2 , 49 Ka1s3.: Intens. %{tantanyate} , %{tantanIti} , vi , 4 , 44 & vii , 4 , 85 Ka1s3. ; [cf. $ , $ &c.]
5	tan	4 (only dat , %{ta4ne} and instr. %{ta4nA}) continuation , uninterrupted succession RV. ; propagation , offspring , posterity RV. [%{tanvA@ta4nA@ca} or %{tma4nA@tAnA} or %{tanve@ta4ne} (%{ca}) , `" for one's own person and one's children "'] [435,2] ; (%{ta4nA} , once %{tanA} , x , 93 , 12) instr. ind. in uninterrupted succession , one after another , continually RV. i , 3 ; 38 ; 77 ; ii , 2 , 1 ; viii ff.



Another derivation is from "tanu," the body, and "tra," to protect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 10th, 2020 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:


Nemo said:
The spread of stories about arson are being pushed by paid AI. You can probably guess who is behind them.


Malcolm wrote:
Pretty funny Nemo. The point is actually that when people set fires, purposefully and accidentally, as they did in Australia, Cali, and other fires, climate change takes a manageable fire and makes it much worse. No need to see a conspiracy here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
PeterC said:
But neither you nor I think what was going on with Lakhar and that nun was that, do we?

Malcolm wrote:
She is an adult. She is apparently ok with it. According to one eyewitness report communicated to me personally, immediately after Sogyal punched her in the stomach, they both started giggling and embraced.

PeterC said:
Moreover if Lakhar were still alive now, and someone you knew decided to take him as a student after all his issues had become public, and he subsequently abused that person; wouldn't you perhaps feel that they should have been more circumspect? So perhaps common sense isn't completely useless in this context.

Malcolm wrote:
I know people who have been subject to being hit with Sogyal's famed backscratcher. Not only was it more startling than painful, they swear it really helped them understand the nature of the mind.

It is not my place to judge him in his role as a guru. That is between him and his students. I am not going to criticize those who felt they had to bring him down, not even Mary Finnegan, but neither am I going to participate in outright condemnation of Sogyal either. He was not my teacher, I never met him, and apart from criticisms of him in the press, I have no personal knowledge of the goings on in Rigpa; other than having heard some of the other side of the story which up till now, has been met with derision and accusations of cult brainwashing.

PeterC said:
This is probably so obvious a point that it doesn't need stating. I don't disagree with your broader point that any and all skilful means are valid in the context of the relationship with the guru.

Malcolm wrote:
I think that we are not really in a position to judge. After all, Drogmi Lotsawa stated that even if his guru, Gayadhara, was burning in hell, he still would regard the latter as a perfect buddha.

I am not certain that Sogyal deserves the near universal scorn he receives in many quarters. I can understand it from those who are not Vajrayānis. They cannot understand Vajrayāna at all, much less the meaning of guru devotion.

I have no problem with people who have no devotion towards Sogyal. I also have no problem with those who remain devoted to him. It just isn't any of my business.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 12:41 PM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that and the Afghanistan papers show that the Republican-spawned wars in the Middle East have all been utter folly, costing America prestige and sympathy abroad. Trump has managed to turn our country into a laughing stock. He is the weakest president we have had in over a hundred years.

The fascists in the White House want war with Iran, they have been itching for it since day one of this (mis)administration.


Sādhaka said:
The Democrats have been just as bad warmongers as the Republicans; or close to, if only because they sometimes pretend to be a little anti-war as part of their facade.

Malcolm wrote:
The dems, while not angels, have generally just been mopping up GOP military messes since Reagan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 12:36 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:



PeterC said:
No, but it’s a relatively easy test to apply that would have screened out Lakhar, Mukpo Jr and others. And none of this would even need discussing if people didn’t fetishize ‘crazy’ behavior in the first place.

Malcolm wrote:
It would not have screened out anyone anyway. You see, we are Anglos. We believe in laws. We live in nations where laws are above persons.

PeterC said:
I think you’re misunderstanding me on this point. The poster that I was replying to was suggesting that maybe Lakhar beating up the nun was in some way not abuse because she was still devoted to him. I was saying there’s of course no way to prove a negative proposition, but if you want a quick test as to whether a guru engaging in unexpected behavior is someone you really want to spend time with, etc etc.  Of course I’m not saying there’s a rule that easily allows you to determine who is qualified as a teacher, or whether a tulku is who is claimed, unless you have accomplished some degree of omniscience. (In any case, do we even care - these are functionally not that different from aristocratic titles in other countries.) Just that if someone fail to apply Occam’s razor in these situations, then they’re a fool.

Malcolm wrote:
There are plenty of disciples in the history of Vajrayana who are grateful that on one occasion or another they were struck or hit by their guru. It can indeed remove obstacles. Everyone knows this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
Queequeg said:
Well, that said, by the time I came around, the divide between intellectuals and labor was there. And the divide is pretty real now.

Malcolm wrote:
The division was hewn by the GOP, falsely claiming that the problems the working class was having was a result of Democratic policies. Of course, the Democrats did not help anything at all by turning into GOP lite. The GOP will go down in history as one of the most successful propaganda machines in history.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:


mandog said:
However, it is probably not great for a guru who is a fully ordained monk to live this way.

Malcolm wrote:
Rwa Lotsawa lived this way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:




PeterC said:
Well yes, there is always doubt.  But when you see people claiming that their lama engages in unconventional behavior so as to teach students, there's a pretty simple first-order test one can apply to assess how plausible that is: does any of that behavior disadvantage the lama in any way?

Malcolm wrote:
That is not in fact the criteria of so-called unconventional behavior.

PeterC said:
No, but it’s a relatively easy test to apply that would have screened out Lakhar, Mukpo Jr and others. And none of this would even need discussing if people didn’t fetishize ‘crazy’ behavior in the first place.

Malcolm wrote:
It would not have screened out anyone anyway. You see, we are Anglos. We believe in laws. We live in nations where laws are above persons.

Tibet was not like that, as you know. Tibet had no legal system to speak of. No courts, no jails, just aristocrats with their soldiers meting out punishments based on local custom and personal capriciousness. The Tibetan establishment is still based on this idea.

If Jamyang Khyentse Chokyi Lodo says Y is the tulku of X, that is it. There is no council that recognizes tulkus. It is all based on the word of a man.

For example, Dilgo Khyentse's family was the wealthiest family in the Derge region. Of course, this does not reflect poorly on Dilgo Khyentse, but since his family was the number 1 sponsor of Khyentse Wangpo, they had a significant say in the disposition of the Khyentse Ladrang's estate after his death. This is one of the reasons why there was significant tension between adherents of Loter Wangpo's Khyentse tulku, and the adherents of Chokyi Lodo, etc., who preferred him for various reasons, probably because Loter Wangpo was not from Kham, but rather, Tsang, and ceding the Khyentse Ladrang would have been ceding enormous wealth to someone who has not a Khampa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:
smcj said:
Or is he eating/drinking like a king, sleeping with a harem of teenagers, beating up people who don't serve him properly, driving a gold-plated Rolls Royce paid for by the Sangha and telling people to donate money to buy him a bigger house?
You are describing the condition of the modern tulku system.
Ösel Tendzin wasn’t a tulku.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, he would have been recognized one eventually had he not been such a spectacular screwup. Then there is the Trungpa's kid, who was recognized a tulku (of a master who asserted he was not going to take rebirth on this planet again, ironically), and still screwed up.

smcj said:
It’s more pervasive than that. It’s a post “spiritual materialism”, post “crazy wisdom” pretext for samsaric indulgence. It’s samsara posing as hip, slick, and cool Dharma. It’s as much spiritual materialistic as a sanctimonious hippie. Only a sanctimonious hippie would at least be refraining from creating non-virtuous karma.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this also existed in Tibet from the beginning, which is why Lha bla ma Ye shes 'Od sought to outlaw of the practices of 'byor and grol, and why Saraha makes fun of people who engage in vratacārya (btul shugs spyod pa) as a pretense to gain followers and so on.  One merely needs observe the libertine and sybaritic excesses of the sixth Dalai Lama, Reting Rinpoche, and all kinds of mad Tibetan saints of the past. The whole history of the Dharma in Tibet in many respects is lurching from one reform movement to the next, about once a century, if you examine the situation honestly. I mean, Patrul Rinpoche excoriates so called "crazy wisdom" behavior. All of this in response to "crazy wisdom" con artists.


smcj said:
However there is a seed of legitimacy in the premise of crazy wisdom, etc. and cannot be simply dismissed. So the trend is enthusiastically perpetuated. Sad.

Malcolm wrote:
Its not a seed, it is a real thing. The fault lies in the fact that some people want to enter into vratacārya before they have adequately mastered the creation and completion stages, and are nowhere near heat on the secret mantra path of application. Such people were sarcastically referred to as "great meditators" by Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen his Song of Experience, composed in the 12th century. It is not a new thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
Yes and no. I mean, we don't know which Prākrits. Some people say Ardhamāgadhī. A creepy amount of Prākrits phonetically reduce Sanskrit in a similar way, like in the case of "satta," which is found in both Pāli and Gāndhārī.

Sattva could just be sattva, sūtra could well just be sūtra. These are pet theories based on the fact that for people living in Northern India in ~6-500 BC, they could have been homonyms.

Malcolm wrote:
You are forgetting that a large number of bhikṣus were educated brahmins. Also, the Buddha very likely knew Sanskrit, since he shows familiarity with Vedas, and could converse with brahmins in this language.

I think the situation on the ground is considerably more complicated than this idea that Buddha taught in Prakrit, and then this was translated later into Sanskrit. Clearly no one was concerned to preserve the Buddha's actual words in the dialect in which the Buddha actually taught, since there are too many dialects in which he taught in various places in Central India. But this of course has nothing at all do with the history of Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 9th, 2020 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
Queequeg said:
If only the Democrats had adapted to the changing economic circumstances to address the tsunami that was hitting labor back in the 70s and 80s

Malcolm wrote:
The Democrats lost precisely because they were backing the unions, which were wholly undermined by GOP "right to work" laws aimed at undermining unions. This was deliberate, since the GOP understood that unions were the main constituency of the Democrats:

"By weakening the relationship between Democrats and unions, we anticipate that RTW laws will drive state policy—including, but not restricted to labor policies—in a rightward direction. We hypothesize that this will be a product of the direct electoral effects of RTW laws: by favoring the election of GOP candidates to state legislatures and governorships, states with RTW laws in place will be more likely to have partially or fully Republican- controlled governments. But RTW laws should also move policy to the right even when states are fully or partially controlled by Democrats. With labor unions a less central member of the Democratic party coalition, we expect that Democrats will have less reason to pursue the left-leaning economic policies favored by labor unions (e.g. Bawn et al. (2012)). And to the extent that RTW laws make it harder for working class state legislative candidates to win office, that should also move state policy to the right."

And:


"The anti-tax political activist Grover Norquist recently declared that while President Trump may be historically unpopular, the GOP could still “win big” in 2020. The secret to the Republican party’s long-term success, Norquist argued, involved state-level initiatives to weaken the power of labor unions. As Norquist explained it, if union reforms cutting the power of labor unions to recruit and retain members—like RTW laws—“are enacted in a dozen more states, the modern Democratic Party will cease to be a competitive power in American politics.” A weaker labor movement, Norquist reasoned, would not just have economic consequences. It would also have significant political repercussions, meaning that Democrats would have substantially less of a grassroots presence on the ground during elections and less money to invest in politics."

And:

"Working class candidates—politicians most likely to be backed by the labor movement—are less likely to hold office in states fol- lowing the passage of RTW laws. State policy as a whole, moreover, moved sharply to the ideological right in RTW states following the passage of those laws."


https://businessinnovation.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/rtw-laws-manuscript_oct2017.pdf

Ergo, what we need in the USA is a broad, renewed labor movement, and Bernie Sanders is the only person who can lead this movement. The reason the voice of the working class in America has been muted has everything to do with GOP successes in state legislatures, and nothing at all to do with some imagined abandonment of the working class by left-wing intelligentsia.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
Simon E. said:
Most of the working class of the U.K. are WASPS.* And they made in clear in the latest General Election they are tired of being patronised by the left. Perhaps American WASPs are different.

Malcolm wrote:
Most of the people in the places where votes mattered in 2016, Pennsylvania, Ohio, etc., are not populated by Wasps. They are mostly populated by descendants of Germans, Scandinavians, and Eastern Europeans. The so-called WASPS are mainly in New England and the Northeast. We really don't count southerners as WASPS at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
mandog said:
Heard a rumor recently that the nun Sogyal Rinpoche punched in the stomach remains devoted to him to this day. Maybe this is true. Maybe it is true, but she is delusional. I don’t know.


PeterC said:
Well yes, there is always doubt.  But when you see people claiming that their lama engages in unconventional behavior so as to teach students, there's a pretty simple first-order test one can apply to assess how plausible that is: does any of that behavior disadvantage the lama in any way?

Malcolm wrote:
That is not in fact the criteria of so-called unconventional behavior.

PeterC said:
Are they doing the modern equivalent of begging on the streets, eating fish guts, cleaning a brothel, or otherwise doing things that attract opprobrium and are physically unpleasant? (There are lamas in modern times who lived as beggars - it's not something confined to medieval hagiographies.)

Malcolm wrote:
This idea that "uncertain deeds" is confined to doing menial or unpleasant things is a misconception. For example, Naropa was obese and carried around on a palanquin, mobbed by crowds, according to the account of Nyan Lotsawa as found in the Sakya Kabum.


PeterC said:
Or is he eating/drinking like a king, sleeping with a harem of teenagers, beating up people who don't serve him properly, driving a gold-plated Rolls Royce paid for by the Sangha and telling people to donate money to buy him a bigger house?

Malcolm wrote:
You are describing the condition of the modern tulku system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
When we're dealing with a suggestion, however amateur, like satta --> satva, sattva, śakta, we are dealing with the Buddhadharma at an oral stage, the same stage where oral/aural transmission errors like dhammaniyāmatā --> dharmanairātmyatā in the Pratyayasūtra (Pāli SN 12.20, Chinese T99.84b16/SA 296, 法定 --> 法空) can occur.*

This would be very early in its direct oral transmission from the ascetic Gautama.

*this refers to a transmission error in the śrāvaka Pratyayasūtra (Paccayasutta) between Prākrit and Chinese, wherein the phrase "dharmasthititā dharmaniyāmatā dharmayathātathā" becomes rendered "dharmasthititā dharmanairātmyatā dharmayathātathā" in the Chinese translation: "法住、法空、法如," the Chinese IMO reflecting a Indic origination that had a transmission error at the oral stage of transmission resulting from a mishearing.

But that's just my own fancy. I'm not putting it forward as definitely the case.

Malcolm wrote:
Given that there is no reason to assume that the Pali is actually the correct version...

Caoimhghín said:
Pāli specifically, no, but "Prākrit" more generally, likely yes IMO.

Pāli is just one Prākrit, as you know.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you are putting it forward as definitely the case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Caoimhghín said:
When we're dealing with a suggestion, however amateur, like satta --> satva, sattva, śakta, we are dealing with the Buddhadharma at an oral stage, the same stage where oral/aural transmission errors like dhammaniyāmatā --> dharmanairātmyatā in the Pratyayasūtra (Pāli SN 12.20, Chinese T99.84b16/SA 296, 法定 --> 法空) can occur.*

This would be very early in its direct oral transmission from the ascetic Gautama.

*this refers to a transmission error in the śrāvaka Pratyayasūtra (Paccayasutta) between Prākrit and Chinese, wherein the phrase "dharmasthititā dharmaniyāmatā dharmayathātathā" becomes rendered "dharmasthititā dharmanairātmyatā dharmayathātathā" in the Chinese translation: "法住、法空、法如," the Chinese IMO reflecting a Indic origination that had a transmission error at the oral stage of transmission resulting from a mishearing.

But that's just my own fancy. I'm not putting it forward as definitely the case.

Malcolm wrote:
Given that there is no reason to assume that the Pali is actually the correct version...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
In fact, from a certain perspective, one could say sūtras aren't even really sūtras. They could have been śrutas (Prākrit: suttas, 'things heard') that Sanskritists transformed while Sanskritizing Buddhist scriptures, but AFAIK that pet theory is only one that I have.

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not, given that Buddha criticized śruta.

Caoimhghín said:
I don't mean śruta in the sense of Hindu Grammarism, if that's even the word for it. I mean śruta in the sense of "evaṁ mayā śrūtaṁ."

The idea being, at an oral stage, "suttaṁ" is ambiguously interpreted as "śrūtaṁ" and "sūtram," the word "sutta" being a name derived from the Prākrit phrase "evaṁ me suttaṁ." This is similar to, IMO, the twin Sanskritizations of "bodhisatta" as "bodhisattva" and "bodhiśakta" (to say nothing of the minority "bodhisatva.")

As you know, I am not a linguist, a Sanskritist, or a Buddhist historian. This is just a pet theory.

Malcolm wrote:
The usual derivation is that the term sūtra means a "thread."

https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/pali_query.py?qs=Sutta&searchhws=yes


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:
Arnoud said:
Is he a gelong?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Khenchen Namdrol is a bhikṣu, a very pure one by all accounts.

Arnoud said:
Thank you. That is good to hear.

Malcolm wrote:
When Khenpo teaches, he prepares for months, and when he is teaching, it is no nonsense: he comes to the place, he teaches, he leaves and goes home. No visitors, no parties, and no social events. I hear when he is not teaching, he is pretty relaxed and funny. But I have not spent personal time with him since I first met him in 1993.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:


Caoimhghín said:
There are many divergent recensions of the Lotus Sūtra. I wonder if the Gilgit Lotus mentions the Anantanirdeśasūtra. I suspect it doesn't, to be quite honest, since I suspect that it is Chinese apocrypha myself (no hard proof), but I am open to being quite wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
Also, the idea of a sūtra being limited to a text artifact is a very limited way to perceive "sūtras."

Caoimhghín said:
In fact, from a certain perspective, one could say sūtras aren't even really sūtras. They could have been śrutas (Prākrit: suttas, 'things heard') that Sanskritists transformed while Sanskritizing Buddhist scriptures, but AFAIK that pet theory is only one that I have.

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not, given that Buddha criticized śruta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Aemilius said:
That is true ofcourse, and for example in the White Lotus sutra, in the Devadatta chapter, there is the story of Shakyamuni in one of his previous births when he is serving an ascetic for many years who posses the teaching of the Lotus sutra. Here you definitely get the impression that the Sutra that the ascetic possess is not a material book, but is something that he holds in his mind.

Astus said:
Since the Lotus Sutra itself talks of the importance of reading and copying the Lotus Sutra, it is hard to see how that can refer to an oral tradition, unless such statements are later modifications of the text. But in that case it means that the Lotus Sutra is not the Lotus Sutra talked about in the Lotus Sutra.
Also, the Innumerable Meanings Sutra has a list of ten types of merit obtainable from it, and half of those talk of reading and copying the sutra, so again, it refers to its scriptural nature. In the very first chapter of the Lotus Sutra it is said that the Buddha was teaching the Innumerable Meanings Sutra. So, either the Innumerable Meanings Sutra is not the Innumerable Meanings Sutra, or it is one scripture writing of another scripture.

Caoimhghín said:
There are many divergent recensions of the Lotus Sūtra. I wonder if the Gilgit Lotus mentions the Anantanirdeśasūtra. I suspect it doesn't, to be quite honest, since I suspect that it is Chinese apocrypha myself (no hard proof), but I am open to being quite wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
Also, the idea of a sūtra being limited to a text artifact is a very limited way to perceive "sūtras."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal, etc. split from THE SELF-ARISEN VIDYA TANTRA thread
Content:
Arnoud said:
Is he a gelong?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Khenchen Namdrol is a bhikṣu, a very pure one by all accounts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
Aemilius said:
That is true ofcourse, and for example in the White Lotus sutra, in the Devadatta chapter, there is the story of Shakyamuni in one of his previous births when he is serving an ascetic for many years who posses the teaching of the Lotus sutra. Here you definitely get the impression that the Sutra that the ascetic possess is not a material book, but is something that he holds in his mind.

Astus said:
Since the Lotus Sutra itself talks of the importance of reading and copying the Lotus Sutra, it is hard to see how that can refer to an oral tradition, unless such statements are later modifications of the text. But in that case it means that the Lotus Sutra is not the Lotus Sutra talked about in the Lotus Sutra.
Also, the Innumerable Meanings Sutra has a list of ten types of merit obtainable from it, and half of those talk of reading and copying the sutra, so again, it refers to its scriptural nature. In the very first chapter of the Lotus Sutra it is said that the Buddha was teaching the Innumerable Meanings Sutra. So, either the Innumerable Meanings Sutra is not the Innumerable Meanings Sutra, or it is one scripture writing of another scripture.

Malcolm wrote:
Tantras do not equal texts. There are of course textual artifacts that are called "tantras," but that is not really what a tantra is in the Vajrayāna tradition. A "tantra" is a continuum, and there are tantras of the basis, tantras of the path, and tantras of the result. What we are referring to as a "tantra" when we are talking about a text artifact is a practice manual. But that is a very limited scope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 8th, 2020 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Lingpupa said:
What I DO find questionable is his failure to acknowledge the harm done to Sogyal’s victims, but his choice, rather, to condemn those who broke silence. He accuses them, instead, of being possessed by demons. His talk, both as a video and as a transcript, are available on the net in case of doubt. Some of us also have our own copies.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not an accusation to say someone is being influenced by nonhuman beings, it is a diagnosis. There is a specific class of nonhumans known as dam sri, samaya breakers, whose action is to cause people in Sanghas to fight with each other and break samaya.

The reason the gyalpo was banned is precisely because of this kind of negative influence.

Regardless of what you and others may think, Khenchen Namdrol is one of the best and brightest teachers of his generation. He is a real bodhisattva. One mustn't criticize real bodhisattvas, even if you cannot understand some of their actions. He lives only to do one thing, and that is to spread the Dharma for the benefit of all sentient beings. Everything else is irrelevant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 7th, 2020 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Passing By said:
Speaking of Norbu Rinpoche, Malcolm, would you think if and when his successor starts giving transmission again, that would be a valid route to access his teachings? Or do you hold the view that it's only appropriate if received direct from Norbu Rinpoche himself? Asking just in case the IDC resumes teaching for the public again

Malcolm wrote:
It is totally fine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 7th, 2020 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:


conebeckham said:
Libertarianism is just anarchy for those who have "gotten theirs already."

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 7th, 2020 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:


Sādhaka said:
That Ron Paul is allegedly racially prejudiced is often repeated, but as far as I can tell it is an baseless accusation to try to discredit him.

He’s certainly no fool. In a debate, nine out of ten times he makes his opponent look foolish (he also made Trump look stupid during the Republican debates).

Malcolm wrote:
Um, I think you are confusing Rand (the son who ran against Trump in 2016) with Ron (the father). But Rand Paul has certainly claimed that he is ok with people refusing to serve black people, gay people, and so on. His father's news letter published a number of very racist articles.

Libertarianism is a morally-bankrupt political doctrine, which has roots in, among other people's thought, the thought of John C. Calhoun, an enthusiastic adherent of slavery.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 7th, 2020 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Lingpupa said:
"Khenpo Namdrol". Whoah. Is that the "Khenchen Namdrol Rinpoche" who took such a primitive view of the Rigpa students who had had enough of Sogyal Lakar?

Malcolm wrote:
Khenchen Namdrol is one of my main gurus, and he is the best person giving explanations of Dzogchen out there today; which is why many of the top Nyingma lamas, for example, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, and so on, have been attending his teachings for years and years. He is the heir of Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok.  You may not wish to study with him, but it would be wrong of you to discourage others from wishing to do so.

It would be like discouraging people from studying the teachings of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, merely because he and Sogyal were quite good friends from childhood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 7th, 2020 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:
PeterC said:
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/01/05/iraqi-parliament-votes-expel-all-american-troops-and-submit-un-complaint-against-us

That worked out well for Trump!  Now the excuse of helping Iraq is well and truly gone, and the US is seen for what it is - an illegal occupying force.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that and the Afghanistan papers show that the Republican-spawned wars in the Middle East have all been utter folly, costing America prestige and sympathy abroad. Trump has managed to turn our country into a laughing stock. He is the weakest president we have had in over a hundred years.

The fascists in the White House want war with Iran, they have been itching for it since day one of this (mis)administration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 7th, 2020 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Our Anti-War President
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Trump seems to be an crypto-neocon (but maybe he’s just playing 5D-chess).

Malcolm wrote:
Trump is not even playing tic tac toe, let alone checkers or chess. He is an idiot.

Sādhaka said:
Too bad we missed out on Ron Paul (assuming that he wasn’t some sort of gatekeeper or controlled-opposition too).

Malcolm wrote:
Ron Paul is a racist, old fool.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 7th, 2020 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Career Advice for a Young Nyingmapa
Content:
dorjedradul said:
Dear unknown dharma friends,

I'm in my early 20s and am one year away from graduating as an english major. I've spent time in India and Nepal and have been fortunate enough to meet some wonderful masters, most of whom were Nyingma. I have taken refuge, have a daily practice, etc.

Thoughts, criticisms, and questions are welcome.

Thanks,
D.


Malcolm wrote:
First, you must choose a career that aligns with right livelihood. Nursing is one of the best careers for a buddhist. It is flexible, portable, and it involves caring directly for people who are suffering. It also allows one to do retreat attend teachings and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 6th, 2020 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
The words in the Pali canon weren't written down until a hundred years after The Buddha spoke them,
5.000 miles away from where he spoke them,

Try 150 years, and in Maghadha, on the Asokan Pillars. The Pali Canon was not compiled until circa 100 BCE. The language on the pillars and the language in the Pali canon are not the same language, as you observe below.
and in a language he never used.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 6th, 2020 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:


tkp67 said:
Climate change threads here have brought little interest regardless of context...

Malcolm wrote:
That is not true. Half the great vegetarian debate is devoted to the climate impacts of diet and agriculture.

tkp67 said:
Buddhism is our wheelhouse so it seems the most relevant vehicle and it does not exist outside of the rest of our lives unless of course we make this a choice.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadharma has never pretended to be a system of political governance. It is a system of personal values. We can operate from those values, but we cannot impose them on others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 6th, 2020 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:
dolphin_color said:
...but my intent was really to ask about the dates we have for the first extant tantric texts in Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
It somewhat depends on what you mean by "tantric," an imprecise term at best. The earliest texts that we have which involve conferring empowerments and advocating mantra recitation, fire offerings, and so on as paths to buddhahood seem to have emerged in early 7th century in South India, near Nagārjunakota, and other places, such as the Swat Valley, and were first promulgated outside of India to Khotan in Central Asia, Java, etc., and China. By 800 CE, all the formative material which characterizes later Vajrayāna teachings were firmly established traditions in India and elsewhere, and had been adopted into the Monastic Universities. The Siddha tradition also seems to have emerged in the mid 8th century, circa 750 CE. However, most of what we know about the origin of Vajrayāna is in second-hand sources, due to the destruction of great monasteries and their libraries at end of the 12th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 6th, 2020 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:



tkp67 said:
Here is the simple difficulty for me Malcom. Oligarchic structures an oligarchy does not make, nor do they change the fabric of samsara or our ability to transcend it.

Malcolm wrote:
But that is not what we were talking about. I merely pointed out that the behavior of corporate oligarchies is sociopathic by definition. You decided to debate definitions.


tkp67 said:
In this way I think these conversations already have a problem solution potential that lies in our perspective.

Malcolm wrote:
Simply put, we need to change the laws in order to force corporations to behave for the benefit of sentient beings, and not for the exclusive benefit of their shareholders. This is how corporations used to be structured in the early USA: a given body that wished to form a corporation had to present their business plan to their local community, and then that body was either given a time-limited corporate charter (generally seven years), or denied. At the end of that charter, it came up for review, and either continued or denied, depending on the social benefit or ill that corporation rendered to that community.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 10:06 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
The meaning of "Buddha" is entirely different within those two methods of investigation, the first assumes that the Buddha could only teach others through a physical body in time and space...

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the case. Even in the Pali canon the Buddha is reported to have said that he taught with mind-generated bodies, and adopted the guise of various persons, such as brahmins, to give teachings to brahmins, and so on.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Iirc those mentions are pretty few and far between - at least incidents relevant to Tantric transmission , I do remember the one sutta with ‘mind-made bodies’, but that’s hardly proof of the existence of Tantra within the Pali Canon, if one is looking for such historical documentation. Which again is my main point, the teachings recorded in Pali don’t need to make mention of it to legitimize Tantra.

Anyway modern Theravada doesn’t have a bunch of teachings about the Buddha teaching in Sambogakaya form, and I feel like going by texts alone it’s a stretch to find it in the Pali stuff.

But, it’s not as if I’m familiar with all of it, got a specific citation etc. to recommend?

Malcolm wrote:
Mind-made bodies, manomayakayas, are not sambhogakayas. There are numerous passages in the Pali canon concerning them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 4:38 AM
Title: Re: Oldest Mahayana sutra
Content:
dolphin_color said:
Pali is not the original language of the Buddha, and it is not the "original canon." There is no such thing.
How fortunate I didn't say that then!

Malcolm wrote:
Best guess has it that traditions began to diverge during the Buddha's lifetime. He taught in many different places, to many different groups, Ananda was only his attendant in the latter part of the Buddha's life, and so on. Every Indic text we have is a translation out of one Indic language into another, whether Pali, Gandhari, or Sanskrit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Oldest Mahayana sutra
Content:
dolphin_color said:
Let me put it this way: There's a canon called the Taisho Tripitaka. We can consider it a Mahayana canon. It has Jataka and Agama material in it. Aside from those sections (which I assume are going to overall be the oldest, as they're closest to the Pali), which text can be identified to be the oldest?

Oh, it seems Malcolm has answered it:

PP In 8000 Lines, assuming that scholar is correct. I'll have to investigate his paper.

Malcolm wrote:
Pali is not the original language of the Buddha, and it is not the "original canon." There is no such thing.

https://tricycle.org/magazine/whose-buddhism-truest/

"It is now clear that none of the existing Buddhist collections of early Indian scriptures—not the Pali, Sanskrit, Chinese, nor even the Gandhari—“can be privileged as the most authentic or original words of the Buddha.”

And:

"Pali tradition reports that Buddhist monks in the Theravada tradition started writing down texts in about the first century B.C.E. The manuscript record in Pali, however, doesn’t begin until about 800 C.E. But the Gandhari manuscripts date from as early as the first century B.C.E. If monks were writing in one part of India, they could likely have been writing in other parts of India as well—so this would seem to add credence to the Pali claims."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Oldest Mahayana sutra
Content:
dolphin_color said:
As mentioned above, the earliest Mahāyāna sūtras were set down around the same time the Pali canon as being committed to writing.
Looking for the specific date of the first one we know of.

Malcolm wrote:
This has been answered already. There is no specific date. The earliest extant fragments of a Mahāyāna sūtra are carbon dated to 47-147 CE.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Oldest Mahayana sutra
Content:
dolphin_color said:
Thanks.
The Sutra of Forty-two Chapters (also called the Sutra of Forty-two Sections, Chinese: 四十二章經) is often regarded as the first Indian Buddhist sutra translated into Chinese.
I wonder, for what it's worth, when the first Indian Buddhist sutra that we know of was written...

Malcolm wrote:
As mentioned above, the earliest Mahāyāna sūtras were set down around the same time the Pali canon as being committed to writing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: Oldest Mahayana sutra
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Here are some more candidates:

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/1628/what-is-the-oldest-text-sutra-of-the-mahayana-tradition

Malcolm wrote:
Suffice it to say, we do not know exactly which Mahāyāna sūtra is the oldest; but we do have some idea which ones may precede the common era. One positive argument for the PP in 8000 lines is its universal popularity in India and its role as an object of devotion, not really accorded to other sūtras even in the same class. I have always personally wanted to have a copy inscribed in precious ink, in my book it is the single most important Mahāyana sūtra there is. YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: RealWorldPolitik
Content:
Rick said:
Where can I get these lovely shoes? My current ones don't work all that well, they've got holes and The World keeps seeping in.

(Welcome back to the forum, Malcolm. It's nice to have you inna house.)

Malcolm wrote:
Goretex.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Oldest Mahayana sutra
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
I believe it was the Sutra in 42 Sections.
In the year of 67 C.E., at the special invitation by Emperor Ming of the
Later Han Dynasty, two Indian Buddhist masters from India,
Kashyapa-matanga and Gobharana, arrived at Luoyang (洛陽), China.
Five years before their arrival, in 62 C.E., Emperor Ming had dreamed
that a golden man flew into his palace. The next day he consulted his
advisor who told the emperor that must be the sage Buddha. In 64 C.E.
a delegation was sent to India to seek the Buddhadharma.

Kashyapa-matanga and Gobharana came with white horses, bearing
precious sutras, Buddha statues, and relics. The emperor built them a
monastery - the very first Buddhist monastery in all of China, aptly
named The White Horse Monastery (白馬寺). There they undertook the
great task of translating The Sutra of Forty-Two Chapters - the first
Buddhist text translated into the Chinese language.

In the Sutra there are aspects of Theravada and Mahayana; expedient
means and ultimate reality; gradual cultivation and sudden
enlightenment. Even more importantly, all of the various teachings in
the Sutra of Forty-Two Chapters are ultimately one single vehicle
pointing to one single goal – enlightenment.
From the Introduction to the Chung Tai Translation Committee version of 2009.

Malcolm wrote:
Not the oldest Mahāyāna Sūtra, and not even an Indic text, truth be told. It is a digest of sayings of the Buddha. Lewis Lancaster, in  expresses the opinion that the PP In 8000 Lines is likely the oldest extant Mahāyāna Sūtra.

See:

The Oldest Mahāyāna Sūtra: Its Significance for the Study of Buddhist Development

Lewis R. Lancaster
The Eastern Buddhist
NEW SERIES, Vol. 8, No. 1 (May, 1975), pp. 30-41

The oldest Mahāyāna sūtra which is extant again appears to be fragments of the above mentioned sūtra found in Gandhari. https://www.academia.edu/3561115/prajnaparamita-5


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
WesleyP said:
Wanting Nothing 
Possessing Nothing  
He has found the Way

Malcolm wrote:
While true, not exactly Buddha's advice for lay people. Sigollavada sutta is more the ticket.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: History of tantra
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
The meaning of "Buddha" is entirely different within those two methods of investigation, the first assumes that the Buddha could only teach others through a physical body in time and space...

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the case. Even in the Pali canon the Buddha is reported to have said that he taught with mind-generated bodies, and adopted the guise of various persons, such as brahmins, to give teachings to brahmins, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Karmic vision is just a forced visualization
Content:
Viach said:
Karmic vision is just a forced visualization. You begin to understand it by doing a voluntary tantric visualization.

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by "forced."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Sealing merit
Content:
cjdevries said:
I have been dedicating the merit after dharma actvities, usually saying something like "I dedicate this merit to liberation."  Is that enough to seal the merit, so that the merit generated does not run out and continues to go toward enlightenment for all beings?  Or are there more elaborate dedication prayers that should be followed in order to dedicate the merit properly?

Malcolm wrote:
What you need to do is to seal that dedication with the insight that there is no one dedicating merit, no person to whom merit is dedicated, and no merit to dedicate. In this way, that merit is rendered imperishable. Merit dedicated otherwise is perishable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 12:57 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
futerko said:
Yes, perhaps more specifically, I tend to be in agreement with Plato's ranking of the five forms of government in contrast to the current notion that anything undemocratic is necessarily worse.

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty much necessarily. Democracies are governments of laws, not humans. Every other form of government mentioned by Plato is a government of humans, not laws. Thankfully, political thinking has considerably evolved since Plato, and equally thankfully, in the US, our system of government owes more to Epicurus than it does Plato or Aristotle, e.g. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, as the Declaration of Independence loudly proclaims.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Great Vegan Debate
Content:



PeterC said:
There is no solution.  Lots of people will die.  The only issue is how.

It’s interesting how people will readily accept that we are in the Kali Yuga, that there is nothing but suffering in samsara, etc.  But they still cling onto hope that somehow society’s problems can be solved.

Malcolm wrote:
It would be morally irresponsible not to act, that’s why.

PeterC said:
Of course we should do what we can, just as we should make a terminal patient comfortable to limit their suffering.  I just don’t see a happy ending coming.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no happy endings in samsara at all, ever.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:



tkp67 said:
PROVE the bolded and there is no argument from me. Please establish that all corporations are oligarchies. I would settle with a accurate accounting of the 20 million plus American corporations. If there was but one person per corporation that still isn't a "small" demographic. How many of them are really Oligarchies? How many of them are quantifiablly sociopathic?

Malcolm wrote:
All corporations must have at least three officers (even if they are one person): a president, a treasurer, and a secretary. They may or may not have boards of directors. By definition, then, corporations are oligarchic structures. The specifics of how a given corporation may be governed is determined in its bylaws, but in no way are these entities democratic. Unless written into its bylaws, the average employee of a given corporation has no say at all in how that corporation is governed, what kinds of decisions the corporate body makes.

tkp67 said:
Your promulgation is that I am stating corporations are neutral.  I never made such a statement. My accurate description of our reality is that corporations are mental framework created by our own sentient minds. Corporations do not create sentience nor to they command. We do. As individuals and as a collective.

Malcolm wrote:
"Corporation" is a name for a specific type of collective. If you admit that collectives can command, then you admit corporations can command.

Of course, we are discussing nothing more than a convention. But this is why we have the term "conventional truth." Unfortunately for your argument, conventions do not bring entities in being. Entities appear, and are then given conventional designations. We also do not create sentience. From the point of view of Buddhadharma, a given stream of consciousness has no start point, no creator. I also stated that corporations were merely legal persons; but as legal persons they are given rights, have agency, and so on. So-called "individuals" are no more immune to deconstructive analysis than any other composite entity— hence the five aggregates, twelve sense bases, and eighteen sense elements.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 5th, 2020 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: RealWorldPolitik
Content:
Rick said:
What does Buddhism have to teach us about ending the suffering that arises from living in such a violently divided political/cultural time?

Malcolm wrote:
Put on shoes instead of trying to cover the world with leather.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 4th, 2020 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Great Vegan Debate
Content:
PeterC said:
The idea that this can all be avoided if we take fewer flights and eat fewer steaks is fantasy, unfortunately.

seeker242 said:
Sure, the world does and will have too many people. But what is the solution? Convince the people of the world to stop having babies? One could argue that convincing the people of the world to stop having sex and thus children, is also a fantasy and a much bigger one at that.

PeterC said:
There is no solution.  Lots of people will die.  The only issue is how.

It’s interesting how people will readily accept that we are in the Kali Yuga, that there is nothing but suffering in samsara, etc.  But they still cling onto hope that somehow society’s problems can be solved.

Malcolm wrote:
It would be morally irresponsible not to act, that’s why.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 4th, 2020 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: Call for prayers for peace
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
At this very moment, for the people and the nations of the earth,
may not even the words disease, famine, war and sufferings be heard;
but rather may their moral conduct, merit, wealth and prosperity increase
and may supreme good fortune and well-being always arise for them.
-- His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 4th, 2020 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:


tkp67 said:
My reasoning has everything to do with my argument. No organization, institution or teaching (not even buddhas) has such dominion over mankind that it can force someone to a behavioral constant. I believe it is arguably incongruent with the teaching of impermanence.

Malcolm wrote:
Your argument is quixotic at best. Why bring up things I never said or implied? Well, fight your own sheets if you must.

tkp67 said:
FWIW the definition of oligarchy includes the bias of educational acumen. However I don't think expecting everyone of a higher education to be negatively biased by it completely unreasonable so I personally don't project a lack of faith in this regard. For reference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

Malcolm wrote:
You should read your own definitions more carefully.  This "includes the bias of educational acumen" is not necessary to the definition of the term "oligarchy."

For reference, OED: "a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution." This matches the definition of a "corporation" quite precisely.


tkp67 said:
HOWEVER I do not argue that the corporate vehicle (must like technology) has been used to facilitate greed and corruption but that constant is reflective of the human condition which expresses this way in all things. These organization. institutions and teachings do not create or enforce a dynamic. It already existed in us and it simply expresses in all that we do.

Malcolm wrote:
On the contrary, institutions and teachings can indeed create and enforce all kinds of dynamics, we see it every day. It is for this reason that we should not accept this idea you are promulgating that corporations are merely neutral instruments of a person. A hammer sees everything as a nail, and if the only tool one has is a hammer...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 4th, 2020 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:



Passing By said:
So the empowerment of colored powders would be the elaborate one? Where would a word empowerment done by the lama giving a teaching on a certain Dzogchen text fit in this scheme? Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
The four snying thig empowerments are subdivisions of the fourth empowerment, actually. Basically, if you are interested in Dzogchen, you need to find someone you believe is a real Dzogchen practitioner to receive teachings from. Right now, I think Khenpo Namdrol is the best teacher available to westerners from whom to learn Dzogchen, due to the depth and length of his explanations. But it is not so easy to meet him. There are many other qualified teachers out there as well. But choose wisely, many Tibetan Lamas hold up a deer's tail, but sell horse meat instead. Thus, caveat emptor.


Passing By said:
Thanks. I'm based in East Asia actually although English is my primary language. One thing I do not understand though. In Nyingma practices generally, the view is Dzogchen based.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.


Passing By said:
For example one of the Four Phurbas in Vajrakilaya is the primordial wisdom phurba which, as I understand, is the state of Dzogchen. So how is one supposed to actually practise such a sadhana if the empowerment for that practice does not include direct introduction? I mean, the empowerment is the foundation for any practice no?

Malcolm wrote:
The fourth empowerment common to gsar ma and snying ma is a kind of introduction, but it is not sufficient for practicing Dzogchen, so to answer your question directly, the empowerment is not foundation for any practice. One also needs to also have further introductions and liberating instructions. And there are further introductions one will need beyond that. For example, the Meteoric Razor (gnam lcags spu gri) Vajrakilaya tradition of Dudjom Lingpa, even after one has received the empowerment in a proper way, it is assumed one will have practiced in some detail the preliminaries, creation and completion stage, then the special Dzogchen preliminaries. Nevertheless, one needs specific further introductions in order to practice the main practices of Dzogchen.

Likewise, in the Jonang tradition, merely receiving the outer four empowerments is not sufficient for practicing the six limb yoga; or in Lamdre, merely receiving the cause empowerment, which has all four empowerments, is not sufficient for practicing the pratices associated with the three inner empowerments, one needs also the path empowerment and the blessing empowerment of Vajrayogini/Nairatma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 4th, 2020 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Passing By said:
Does the chapter on empowerments imply that Vajrayana deity empowerments given by a Dzogchen master count as Dzogchen transmission even if there is no Dzogchen style direct introduction per se?

Malcolm wrote:
No. It is not implying that at all. The chapter on empowerments is strictly referring the four empowerments common to Dzogchen snying thig: elaborate, unelaborate, and so on.

Passing By said:
So the empowerment of colored powders would be the elaborate one? Where would a word empowerment done by the lama giving a teaching on a certain Dzogchen text fit in this scheme? Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
The four snying thig empowerments are subdivisions of the fourth empowerment, actually. Basically, if you are interested in Dzogchen, you need to find someone you believe is a real Dzogchen practitioner to receive teachings from. Right now, I think Khenpo Namdrol is the best teacher available to westerners from whom to learn Dzogchen, due to the depth and length of his explanations. But it is not so easy to meet him. There are many other qualified teachers out there as well. But choose wisely, many Tibetan Lamas hold up a deer's tail, but sell horse meat instead. Thus, caveat emptor.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Great Vegan Debate
Content:



PeterC said:
The deeper problem, though, is yields. People overlook just how much modern farming has increased yields in the past century. This is why we can’t go back to small-scale agriculture - it’s simply not productive enough to feed everyone.

Malcolm wrote:
Modern farming creates higher yields because of petroleum inputs into farming in the form of fertilizer, pesticides, etc. It is not sustainable if one wishes to reduce nitrogen poisoning of the ocean, etc.

Intensive small-scale farming is more fruitful than large scale monocropping, actually, and it restores soil, which brings us to our next point:

https://ourworldindata.org/crop-yields

Compounding that is the problem that we are losing farmland at a worrying rate, in part due to the practices that caused yields to go up in the first place
Precisely.


PeterC said:
Even if we go all-out for plant protein now...

Malcolm wrote:
It won't happen. People in the developing world are eating meat at higher rates than ever before.


PeterC said:
Things may well self-correct much earlier.  There are very good odds that global population will be culled by drug-resistant bacteria. Increasing urbanization makes this more likely to happen and much harder to stop.

Malcolm wrote:
There will be water wars long before that happens.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: The Self-Arisen Vidya Tantra and The Self-Liberated Vidya Tantra A Translation of the Rigpa Rang Shar and Rigpa Rang
Content:
Passing By said:
Does the chapter on empowerments imply that Vajrayana deity empowerments given by a Dzogchen master count as Dzogchen transmission even if there is no Dzogchen style direct introduction per se?

Malcolm wrote:
No. It is not implying that at all. The chapter on empowerments is strictly referring the four empowerments common to Dzogchen snying thig: elaborate, unelaborate, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
tkp67 said:
Non entities (corporations/oligarchies) have no personality or proclivity as such, they are simply descriptive terms.

Not everyone exploits the corporate veil to marginalize humanity.

Malcolm wrote:
Until it is a given corporation's interest do so (for example, the petroleum industry, the tobacco industry, shall I continue?), then corporations act without compunction to preserve their own interests, humanity be damned.

tkp67 said:
Imagine if an institution, organization or mantra could force human behavior so succinctly that everyone described them behaved accordingly without deviation.

Malcolm wrote:
Deviations are punished, usually through dismissal.

tkp67 said:
Anyone who became buddhist would be perfected by proxy simply because they fell within that fold and all corporate executives would marginalize others without synergy or symbiosis.

Malcolm wrote:
Here, your reason has nothing do with the predicate of your argument. Your conclusion is therefore invalid.

All corporate executives are beholden to maximizing the profits of shareholders, it is their fiduciary duty to act this way, even if it is involves activity which is demonstrably harmful to humanity in general: for example, the arms industry.

Corporations are legal persons, it is therefore appropriate to treat them as independent persons since this is how they are treated in law.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 7:07 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
2) Of the four points you made only the last one was worthy of note - compared to the first three.


Malcolm wrote:
You continually accuse your fellow discussants of not having read, and not being familiar with conservative writers. That is demonstrably false. The first three points bear on that point. My late father, while not a famous philosopher, was of some note in his specific area, ethics and philosophy of law. You can look him up, Malcolm Barry Estes Smith.

Do you care to respond to the last point?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Malcolm typo - Kirk claims there is no conservative ideology does NOT mean he is not advancing a conservative ideology.

Revealing retort - You have read more, your Dad was a conservative, a dictionary definition plus the ability to see that the so-called 'incoherent mess' does not fit your requirements.

One out of four is only so so... Leaving you the required last word...

Malcolm wrote:
Huh?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Malcolm just does not get it or want to get it.

Criticism without even reading the Concise text is easy, perhaps mandatory for some.

"Conservative ideologies" is a non sequitur and an affliction just like any other ideal or intellectual concept.

Malcolm wrote:
I read it, and my late father was a conservative, a lawyer, and a philosophy professor -- I expect I have read a good deal more conservative thought than have you.

Merely because Kirk claims there is no conservative ideology does mean he is not advancing a conservative ideology. What is an ideology?  OED: "a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy." Are you really trying to tell us that the incoherent mess you call "conservatism" isn't a set of ideals concerned with economics, politics, and policy?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Simon E. said:
But alas not at odds with the interpretations of Dharma disseminated by certain conservative teachers of what purports to be Buddhadharma who teach rigid gender roles, homophobia, and a kind of prosperity gospel translated into Buddhist terminology.

Malcolm wrote:
Pharisees, in other words, hence at odds with Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Let us face it, whether we call it hypocrisy, lack of will-power, stupidity, original sin, poor in merit or good karma, etcetera - spiritual practice or living up to our ideal is not there.  Some small or tiny percentage of humanity are 'good' Xtians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or Humanists.

Malcolm wrote:
Afflictions and ideals have nothing to do with one another. Ideals are just intellectual concepts. Afflictions are what motivate sentient beings. Of course, the state of being afflicted is able to be transcended individually, but not en masse.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Even secular idealists of atheistic or political stripes treat their hobby as just that.  To their fellow travelers they signal as ardent, dedicated and will die for the cause.  Yet when personal benefit comes their way, they suck it up greedily.

Malcolm wrote:
See above.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Thus conservatives in temperament have a more realistic, even grim view of human potential.

Malcolm wrote:
Conservative ideologies are not consistent with transcendent dharma, since they take selfishness as the a priori state of sentient beings. As John Kenneth Galbraith puts it, "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

But Buddhadharma does not assert that an afflicted state is the original state of sentient beings; quit the contrary, Buddhadharma holds, unlike conservatism, that afflictions are not innate. Conservatism holds generally that human beings are not perfectible. Buddhadharma on the other hand maintains that human beings are inherently perfectible, this is the consquence of holding that human beings are not inherently afflicted. Buddhadharma has never expressed skepticism of state-sponsored welfare enterprises, as a quick read of Nāgārjuna's Ratnavali reveals, nor does it hold kingship in particularly high esteem, as Āryadeva's satirical presentation of royal paternity shows. Unlike Kirk, who maintains that class comes from natural order and inequality is necessary; Buddha himself directly negated the burgeoning caste system in India, while at the same time pointing out that class, beauty, health, fame, and other mundane desiderata were a function of one's positive or negative karma. However, the Buddha also negated that birth into this or that station in life was in any way a meaningful indicator of the moral and social worth of a person. Modern conservatives, echoing the old Calvinist doctrine, measure moral worth in terms of wealth, power, and status, and encourage the fable that ability to achieve wealth, power, and status results from a person's intrinsic ability, rather than a set of social conditions and luck, over which none of us have much, if any control.

There is no case that can be advanced that Buddhadharma can be reconciled with conservatism, whether of Burkean kind or the modern conservative trend. Conservatism is not egalitarian; it concerns itself principally with the preservation of established orders, no matter that they are founded on inequality and oppression. It is a species of self-interested moral fatalism. As such, it is utterly incompatible with Buddhadharma. We can see this within Buddhadharma itself —— conservative movements in Buddha inevitably fail because conservatism is fundamentally at odds with the radical and transformational nature of Buddhadharma's vision of a perfectible humanity. In a conservative Buddhadharma, one cannot have a Guru Rinpoche or a Dudjom Lingpa, neither a Bodhidharma nor a Huineng. A conservative Buddhadharma is just a kind of phariseeism, the establishment of a political class in religious garb, with goals divorced from the very principles those robes are supposed to represent. From the point of view of Buddhadharma, there no daylight between conservatives, the pharisees, and the brahmins.

The conservative view of human potential is utterly at odds with Buddhadharma, in toto.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
futerko said:
...to put it another way - the agencies which can act at a global level are corporations, which are considered as individuals before the eyes of the law, and which the corporate global news is primarily aimed at... but when actually considered as an individual, a corporation is bound to appear psychotic.

Malcolm wrote:
Oligarchies are generally sociopathic, and as such, since corporations are nothing more than private oligarchies, it is not surprising that, for all intents and purposes, they are sociopaths too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Kirk explained in 1952 to Henry Regnery, the publisher of The Conservative Mind, it was imperative to
“recognize the great importance, in literature as in life, of religion, ethics, and beauty.” Politics, he
snapped, “is the diversion of the quarter-educated, and I do try to transcend pure politics in my book.”

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]


Kirk is, fundamentally, a romantic, like all conservatives. As I mentioned before, conservatism, as you as much admit, is not a coherent philosophical system. It is politically incoherent, as we see again and again, from the kind of policies conservative politicians consistently put forward under the guise of wishing people to be "self-reliant" and so on, but actually serve merely to marginalize and condemn millions to poor health care, educational, and social outcomes, and which actually cost far more in terms of actual resources expended in addressing the social issues caused by conservative policies than would have been otherwise spent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
tkp67 said:
As individuals we have the capacity to challenge of aspects conservative and liberal ideology that runs counter intuitive to dharma practice.

..............................................

As I see it our own desires delight in ideologies such as conservative or libertarian but is either boundless, empty or pure in regards to sentient consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
Did you mean "libertarian" in your first sentence? It is unclear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 3rd, 2020 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, we are a secular state, founded on secular principles since the very founding of our republic. ...

Until 1956, the official motto of the United States was "E pluribus unum;" however, since 1956, it has been "In God we trust." The latter is a clear violation of the establishment clause, should be removed, and our old motto reinstated.

PeterC said:
Agree.  However when we say that the US is a secular state, to what extent is that still true when the entrenched ruling party, and the large minority that support it, believe and act as if it should be a theocracy?

Malcolm wrote:
This is just racist idealism posting as religion. The "conservative" reaction to Obama was and is fundamentally racist.

PeterC said:
How many actual atheists can you think of who hold office in government, elected or appointed?  Is atheism really acceptable in public life? The establishment cause still stands, no small thanks to organizations such as the ACLU, but it has been under siege for decades.

Malcolm wrote:
There are plenty of federal employees who are atheists, etc., especially in Washington DC. You might not have noticed, but Virginia has for decades been turning into a blue state. Maryland is already reasonably liberal in its policies. Bernie Sanders, my guy, is most definitely an atheist. Pelosi is a Buddhist. Most people in US political life who are "religious" are just using attendance at this or that church as a kind of virtue signaling, but no one really believes it is sincere.


PeterC said:
In the USA, race is class. White people on top; black and latin people below them, with native people at the bottom. His argument is an argument for permanent ghettoes and slums, absent a social safety net.
I think it's important to recognize that mainstream opinion in the US has always considered this to be perfectly acceptable.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is left over from our twin original sins as a nation: genocide and slavery.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 2nd, 2020 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
We in USA were mainly influenced by secular or nominal values, attitudes & views.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, we are a secular state, founded on secular principles since the very founding of our republic. The purpose of the establishment clause of the US Constitution is the promotion of secular values. Our society must be predicated upon secular values. HH Dalai Lama agrees: [E]ach individual’s survival or future depends on society. We need these human values. I call these secular ethics, secular beliefs. There’s no relationship with any particular religion. Even without religion, even as nonbelievers, we have the capacity to promote these things." Not only is it the case that the US Govt. is the first national Govt. in human history where the transfer of power from one leader to another was not occasioned by death or violence, it is the first purely secular state. We ought to keep it that way.

Until 1956, the official motto of the United States was "E pluribus unum;" however, since 1956, it has been "In God we trust." The latter is a clear violation of the establishment clause, should be removed, and our old motto reinstated.

As to the argument that we are a Christian nation, the Treaty of Tripoli stipulates that, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Russel Kirk's point of view is grounded not only in the conservatism of Adams and Hamilton, it is also grounded in the pernicious proto-liberatarianism of the slaveholder and political theorist, John C. Calhoun. Indeed, Kirk's arguments against federalism are grounded in the same principles through which Calhoun defended slavery, and spend his life trying to weaken the sphere of power of the federal government (when it suited his interests to do so, much as modern day Republicans are quite happy to use regulatory capture when it suits them, but complain bitterly about it nevertheless).

Kirk's notions that we must believe in a transcendent order is nonsense; his belief that society requires classes to emphasize natural distinctions is fundamentally racist. He writes, "For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality." In the USA, race is class. White people on top; black and latin people below them, with native people at the bottom. His argument is an argument for permanent ghettoes and slums, absent a social safety net.

The intellectual poverty at the core of modern conservatism is striking. Taken together, as Keynes observed, it has no coherent set of principles, but instead appeals to sentiment, nostalgia, and narcissism as its core values.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 1st, 2020 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"How could I bring myself to be a Conservative? They offer me neither food nor drink — neither intellectual nor spiritual consolation. I should not be amused or excited or edified. That which is common to the atmosphere, the mentality, the view of life of — well, I will not mention names — promotes neither my self-interest nor the public good. It leads nowhere; it satisfies no ideal; it conforms to no intellectual standard; it is not even safe, or calculated to preserve from spoilers that degree of civilisation which we have already attained."

--- from Am I a Liberal? John Maynard Keynes, 1925.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 1st, 2020 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Why American conservatism failed
Fareed Zakaria
Jul 4, 2019

Today’s crisis of conservatism has produced surprisingly few books that try to understand what exactly has happened to the venerable creed. For decades, conservatism was a dominant ideology in the Western world, championed by Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. Now, it has quietly collapsed. President Trump’s populism has taken over the Republican Party, and Brexit fever has consumed Britain’s Conservative leaders.

Into this muddle comes George F. Will’s “The Conservative Sensibility.” I have long admired Will, who embodies the ideal of thoughtful, learned conservatism. When I was in college, he was already a fixture of U.S. political and intellectual life — a columnist for The Post, a regular commentator on Sunday morning television and the author of several books. As the editor of an undergraduate publication, I summoned the courage to write to Will asking for an interview, to which he agreed. That was 35 years ago, and since then my admiration and respect have remained undimmed. Thus, I picked up “The Conservative Sensibility” with great anticipation.

The book, as one might expect, is deeply erudite, filled with examples from history and illuminating quotations from politicians and poets. Will has attempted to outline the basic features of his creed. American conservatism, Will announces, has almost nothing to do with European conservatism, “which is descended from, and often is still tainted by, throne-and-altar, blood-and-soil nostalgia, irrationality, and tribalism.” He paraphrases Thatcher in observing that “European nations were made by history, the United States was made by philosophy.” American conservatism, then, is a project that seeks to defend the original philosophy of the Founding Fathers: classical liberalism, which promotes limited government and the veneration of individual liberty.

The counterpoint to this tradition, Will argues, is progressivism, the philosophy articulated by Woodrow Wilson and most capably enacted by Franklin D. Roosevelt. Born during the industrialization of the country after the Civil War, progressivism sees society as requiring collective action undertaken by government, which can best enable individuals to flourish economically, politically and morally. This tradition, for Will, has eroded the ideals of the American founding, enervated the spirit of America and created a country that is less free, less self-reliant and poised for economic stagnation.

But the problem for Will and for modern conservatism is that, as progressivism rose in the 20th century, the United States became the most powerful, productive and dynamic nation in the world. Indeed, after the New Deal came the astonishing American boom of the 1950s and 1960s. After the Great Society came the information revolution, which the United States has dominated more than any other nation. The fact remains that in 2019, the United States is one of the most free, dynamic and innovative countries on the planet. If that is the result of a century of progressive policies, maybe we need more?

The fundamental flaw of modern conservatism is that it is unsure whether America today is a fallen republic or an astonishing success story. This confusion has produced a political crisis among conservatives, which might help explain the rise of Trump.

Ever since the 1930s, conservatives have been promising their flock the rollback of the progressive agenda. They have warned about the dangers of leaving the welfare state intact and pilloried conservative leaders for failing in this crucial task. Yet, despite the Reagan revolution, the Newt Gingrich revolution and the tea party revolution, the welfare state is still standing as strong as ever. Republicans dominate almost every arena of U.S. politics — and the state is bigger than ever. Should we chalk this up to incompetence? More likely, conservatives know that the public actually wants the welfare state and that a modern country could not function today under some libertarian fantasy experiment. Of course, they will never admit this.
In any case, the result is that conservative leaders left their base permanently aggrieved, feeling betrayed and distrustful of any new campaign promises. In recent years, as the fever grew, conservative voters became desperate for someone who had not played this game of bait-and-switch with them. And into this rage walked Trump, who easily toppled the old conservative establishment and rode the frustration with elites all the way to the White House.

Will has written a fascinating book. But at its heart is the same saga of a lost utopia that has crippled modern conservatism and damaged U.S. politics. Will describes himself as “an amiable, low-voltage atheist.” Well, then he surely knows that there never really was a Garden of Eden.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 1st, 2020 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
]

I am critical of your vote for Trump. But it's your karma you've created, not mine.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Is the karmic effect of any vote based mainly on the action of voting or is it the cetanā, intent, will or motive?

I am not critical of anyone's vote.

Malcolm wrote:
As you know, a perfect karma requires four things: the object, the intent, the deed, and satisfaction with the deed.

As you also know, when a soldier in army approves of an act of killing in battle, for example, with all four limbs above complete, that nonvirtue is multiplied by the number of people who approve of that act of killing by that army.  So if your army is one hundred people, and you all approve of an act of killing, the karmic result for you is multiplied by 100 times. See Pruden, Abidharmakośabhaṣyaṃ, pg. 649.

For example, while I indeed voted for Obama 2008, I did not approve of any of his military policies, etc., and thus, I did not vote for him in 2012. But unlike many other liberals in the US, I was never convinced that Obama was all that. But at least he is intelligent, well-educated, polite, and not a malignantly narcissistic, ignorant, womanizing, sexually-abusive racist (and very likely, a rapist as well), like the present occupant of the White House.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 1st, 2020 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
No more than Malcolm is dismissive of my political views, nor my small part in helping varied translation projects.

Malcolm wrote:
I am critical of your vote for Trump. But it's your karma you've created, not mine.

I am not critical of any effort support authentic Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 31st, 2019 at 7:47 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Which movement is more destructive of this US culture?

Malcolm wrote:
Trumpism.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Flapdoodle.  Go back to translating.

Trump is not & will not produce any 'ism'.  He is simply noticing the Silent Deplorables being ignored and is responding to that group's need for help and attention.  He also is contrary enough & has a big enough ego to like breaking up the elitist 'system' that has been running things for decades.  After he is gone in 2020 or 2024, the powers that be will reassert themselves.

So you lefties have nothing to worry about. As Whittaker Chambers said, after leaving the Commies, "I left the winning side."

Malcolm wrote:
I wrote a response, and then deleted it. If you cannot see how much this man is damaging the country, you are beyond reach, stuck in an ideological mire.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 31st, 2019 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Which movement is more destructive of this US culture?

Malcolm wrote:
Trumpism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 31st, 2019 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
Simon E. said:
So we are seeing the Vipaka. What in addition to those measures that could limit greenhouse gases and so on, can we do to ensure a more positive environment for future Dharma practitioners..including ourselves?

Malcolm wrote:
Simple answer: avoid the ten nonvirtuous deeds and practice the ten virtuous deeds, and encourage everyone else to do the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 31st, 2019 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
Simon E. said:
So, and this is a serious and non rhetorical question to which I have no pat answers...

Can events occur which lie outside the vipaka associated with individual karma?

Malcolm wrote:
According to Sarvastivadin Abhidharma, no. Since both Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna are largely grounded in this system, the answer you will generally receive is that any and all results one experiences, including the creation and dissolution of the universe are all results of individual karma.

Theravada has a different idea.

Simon E. said:
In terms of the subjects being explored in this thread Malcolm, could you unpack that a little more?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, for example, it is said the retributive result of killing is that plants, the sun, and so on have diminished vitality; by stealing beings are crushed by stones, or dust storms and acid rain; sexual misconduct results in being covered with dust or caustic materials; lying causes one to smell bad or be in a place with bad odors; malicious speech causes one to be inhabit holes and hilly regions; harsh speech causes one to live in a place where the soil is either contaminated with salt or infertile, and the plants are pernicious and so on; gossip results the seasons being out of order; greed results in small fruits; hatred result in sour fruit; wrong view results in few fruits, if any. There are many such descriptions one can read in various places.

The basic idea is that every action has a result which must be experienced providing its cause has not been cut off either through rebirth into a realm where such negative results cannot come to fruition or the elimination of the karmic obscuration.

Theravadins have a diffent idea in so far as they understand some things to merely be a manifestation of conditions, such as plane crashes, etc., not necessarily tied to a specific act on one's part.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 31st, 2019 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year
Content:
Simon E. said:
So, and this is a serious and non rhetorical question to which I have no pat answers...

Can events occur which lie outside the vipaka associated with individual karma?

Malcolm wrote:
According to Sarvastivadin Abhidharma, no. Since both Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna are largely grounded in this system, the answer you will generally receive is that any and all results one experiences, including the creation and dissolution of the universe are all results of individual karma.

Theravada has a different idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, December 31st, 2019 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: Ram Dass Died
Content:


Queequeg said:
What's the rationale behind refraining from saying that one's lama has died? How does that belittle one's connection?

Malcolm wrote:
It's just a rude way to put it, from a Tibetan Buddhist point of view. It implies one's relationship with that guru has ceased. One's guru does not die, one's guru dissolves his or her continuum into the dharmadhātu, demonstrates parinirvana, and so on. But they never simply "die."  Now, as far as Ram Dass goes, I am sure he could care less what people call his death.

Queequeg said:
Is this rooted in Tibetan language or idioms? Would one refrain from saying any person died or just eminent people like one's guru? Is this directed at English speakers in particular whose ideas of "died" is culturally informed by a materialist view?

Malcolm wrote:
The words, "kill," "slay," "death," and so on, are all culturally inauspicious words in Tibetan. In particular, the word for death in Tibetan, 'chi ba, means "to be destroyed." Likewise, the word for body, "lus," means "left over." So we never refer to our guru's body as "lus," we refer to it as "sku," the honorific for body. This has nothing to do with Buddhism, since the word for lus and sku in Sanskrit is kāya. For example, we never call the body of our guru a corpse (phung po or ro). We call it a sku gdung, which means, literally, "body and bones," gdung being the honorific for bones, as sku is the honorific for body. All of this likely comes from pre-Buddhist usages for dealing with the remains of kings.

This is not aimed at speakers of other language groups.

When referring to enemies, animals, and so on, these words are not so fraught; but with family members, important people, one's gurus, etc., it is considered impolite to refer directly to their deaths as "death." So Tibetans use euphemisms. Likewise, if a member of a family dies, or one's guru, one observes a period of mourning which precludes the next new year's celebration, generally a celebration of good fortune. So for example, after ChNN passed away, I did not celebrate the Tibetan new year at all, etc. Tibetan concepts around death are complicated, combining Tibetan cultural assumptions with Buddhist assumptions. But they have very little to do with trying to forestall physicalist interpretations of the death process.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 30th, 2019 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Ram Dass Died
Content:


Queequeg said:
What's the rationale behind refraining from saying that one's lama has died? How does that belittle one's connection?

Malcolm wrote:
It's just a rude way to put it, from a Tibetan Buddhist point of view. It implies one's relationship with that guru has ceased. One's guru does not die, one's guru dissolves his or her continuum into the dharmadhātu, demonstrates parinirvana, and so on. But they never simply "die."  Now, as far as Ram Dass goes, I am sure he could care less what people call his death.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 28th, 2019 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: termas found outside of asia?
Content:
Fortyeightvows said:
Malcolm, your back ?

Malcolm wrote:
From time to time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 27th, 2019 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: termas found outside of asia?
Content:


Sonam Wangchug said:
These days, I am sure Terma are still being revealed, as some have even mentioned in this thread, but who will validate it? and would everyone accept the validation? in these dregs of time where many people lack devotion.

Malcolm wrote:
KDL, when asked, said that anyone can be a terton, provided they have total devotion to Guru Rinpoche.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 27th, 2019 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: termas found outside of asia?
Content:



Miroku said:
Brings up a question .... what about Europe?

I just know that HH. Chetsang Rinpoche discovered some Vajradakini cave in the USA and founded a nunnery near the place. The cave was and still is a holy grounds for native americans around there. But not sure if my info is correct, but more can be found in his biography.

Sonam Wangchug said:
He had quite a bit of obstacles in discovering the cave (someone slammed his hand in the car door) and had to descend dangerously down a rope with his injured hand. He said it was Local spirit/s making obstacles.

I believe there was also Sindhura found in that cave.

I also heard that the late Kunzang Dechen Lingpa described an important cave shaped like a Phurba? In VT I think he saw it in his dream.



Malcolm wrote:
The so called Vajrayoginī cave in the Wild River, in Bristol, VT. is right here: https://goo.gl/maps/Cve4gvc8mMw6UBFc8. It is a very popular swimming spot frequented by thousands of people every year in the summer.The bank from the road down to the river is quite steep, and the cave can only be entered by wading through the manmade pool in front of its entrance. I have been in this cave, which is located behind the waterfall in the picture, many times, and yes, this is the cave that HH Chetsang Rinpoche allegedly identified as a source of sindhura. The original source of this story is David Arndt. When asked about it, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa did not agree, and thought it was just an ordinary place with ordinary clay, not sindhura at all. David was very disappointed to hear this, and chooses still to advertise this location as a Vajrayogini place. For him and the Drigung faithful, it is such a place. For others, not so much.

As for the "cave" on Deer Leap Rock ( http://obscurevermont.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/dsc_0159_pe1.jpg ), KDL did not have a dream about it, he just thought there was a cave up there, and when Pema Wangdi and David went up to investigate, sure enough there was a rock overhang that might serve as a cave with some improvements. I was in Lincoln the day they reported discovering a cave up there, though did not walk up there myself, as I was busy attending KDL. KDL thought that if there was a cave up there, as he suspected, it would be a good place to do retreat, having spent many years as a wandering mendicant before finally settling down in Rangapara, Assam. Also, I was in the car with KDL when he first noticed the rock face and opined it might have a cave. It was a result of his yogi's eye, and not a dream, that led to the discovery of that cave. He never mentioned anything about phurpas in relationship to that cave in my hearing. But I was not with him 24/7/365.

As far as Lincoln, VT. itself goes, however, it is the first place in the US where Kalu Rinpoche had a place, and has hosted many lamas over the years, principally Kagyu and Nyingma Lamas. It is a very special town, one of the most impressive towns in VT, from the point of view of its views and location. Some places one can look right down the valley and see Lake Champlain. The mountain range behind  it has the appearance of a women lying on her side in repose, and Mt. Abe has the distinct shape of a breast. On eastern side of these mountains are a number of ski resorts, like Mad River Glen, etc. I am actually looking at Mt. Abe as I write this to you. So, sindhura or not, Lincoln VT. is a special place, where I have received many wonderful teachings from fantastic gurus, and that is really the main point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 12th, 2019 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Mantrik said:
For the time being, though, it does seem that he is not offering to lead those who had transmission from ChNN.

Malcolm wrote:
People seem to forget that Yeshe already has a large base of students in the DC. As far as I can tell, he is merely creating an official way for people who are interested in the DC to participate fully in Yantra Yoga, Vajra Dance, and so forth, who have not received transmission from Rinpoche. I, for one, am happy that he is stepping up and taking this role.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 21st, 2019 at 7:41 AM
Title: Signing Off
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dear Dharma Wheel:

The Buddha advised that when groups of practitioners come to a point where they cannot agree, it is better to separate, resulting in the eighteen schools. This is where we are at now. My relationship with the moderating board has become too fraught for a number of reasons. I am personally sorry that it is has come to this point, but I have done nothing wrong, and have at heart only the interest of people learning and progressing in the true Dharma that exists in the nine yānas the Buddha taught in correspondence with each person's individual inclinations. To that end, I have introduced scores of people to qualified teachers, and answered thousands of questions about all aspects of Dharma to the best of my ability. Now, my sojourn in these waters must come to an end. In the interest of comity, I am permanently signing off. I will not be looking at this board again, so I will see no further personal messages. Those of you who have need to reach me can find me on Facebook.

Thanks for all the fish,

Malcolm


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 21st, 2019 at 7:07 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Sherab said:
For consistency, then, object of cognition in Malcolm statement has to be a mental representation.  But if that is the case, then what is understood ultimately cannot be accurate and cannot be a basis for explaining how Siddhas can have the ability to affect their physical objects such as leaving footprints on rocks.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the object of cognition is not "representation only," (vijñāptimatra) for it it were, there would be no difference between Cittamātra and general Madhyamaka.

I get a little tired of repeating myself, but here it goes again:

Because all entities can be perceived veridically,
it is found that all entities can be apprehended with two natures.
When some object that is perceived veridically, that is true. 
All [objects] perceived falsely are said to be relative truths.

Candra continues:

"The buddhas that know with correct wisdom the intrinsic nature of the two truths have taught that all external entities such as formations, sprouts, and so on, have two intrinsic natures. These [natures] are relative and ultimate.

This excludes your contention that what is being referred to are mental representations.

He continues:

The ultimate is the acquisition of the essential identity of the specific object of the wisdom (jñāna) that sees the truth, but is not established through its own nature. This is the first nature. The other is all the mental eyes of ordinary people that are obscured with opthalmia and cataracts, which find an existent self from the power of false perception. Whatever becomes the object of the perception of children,  such a nature is not intrinsically established. Therefore, the nature of all entities are apprehended in these two ways.

Frankly, the frustrating thing about you is that you don't do your homework, and don't seem to bother to educate yourself about these things. This is the main reason why I have no interest in your exercises in logic. It is a waste of time, for me, because your logic is not grounded in citation. Time and again, in order to even have a discussion, I define terms, which you consistently ignore, based on some personal criteria which is opaque at best. We have wasted the better part of thread supposedly devoted to Dzogchen to just running on the same hamster wheel. So am I out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 21st, 2019 at 6:42 AM
Title: Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione - Open Webcast Transmission - January 20, 2019
Content:
Lukeinaz said:
Is the Green Tara she gave the same as ChNN would transmit?

Malcolm wrote:
Identical.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 21st, 2019 at 6:42 AM
Title: Re: Dharmadhātu and gzhi
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, they are the same thing.

mechashivaz said:
I thought so but couldn't find any confirmation. Thanks!

Vaktar said:
Not so fast, fellers. Is gzhi-snang also Dharmadhatu, or not?

Malcolm wrote:
The basis is the basis is the basis, whether it "rises up" or not. Anyway, here the basis is just the mind essence, one's unfabricated consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 21st, 2019 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione - Open Webcast Transmission - January 20, 2019
Content:



Sherab Rigdrol said:
She most certainly has permission to teach this and for quite some time now. This is how it has been advertised even when Rinpoche was alive.

Malcolm wrote:
One, it is not an empowerment, it is four lungs. Second, SR is correct, there is no problem here.

Mantrik said:
I am aware of her history with ChNN and that she was selling courses whilst he was alive.
However, when a Lama peddles practices like the latest flat screen TV on Black Friday I have a problem with it, but I accept I am out of step here.

Malcolm wrote:
Just accept that you don't want to receive these transmissions from her. You know, I remember when the issue of advertising the transmission days first came up. Everyone was against it, until I wrote to Rinpoche and asked him, "what do you think?" He thought it was great. So we did advertise in the major Buddhist rags.

Likewise, one student had problems with the webcasts and said, "Rinpoche, we should not be doing webcasts because this is all secret." To which the boss replied, "Who told you that my teachings were secret?"

Lama Tsultrim has brought more people to Dzogchen community than perhaps anyone else, apart from RInpoche himself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 21st, 2019 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione - Open Webcast Transmission - January 20, 2019
Content:
Mantrik said:
She seems to be advertising Chöd practice of Chögyal Namkha'i Norbu Rinpoche quite heavily as a course, and if you're quick you can get a discount on the price.
Whether or not she has permission to give this empowerment, it is pretty crass IMHO to be advertising it commercially at this time and even more crass for it to be discounted like Black Friday deal.

Sherab Rigdrol said:
She most certainly has permission to teach this and for quite some time now. This is how it has been advertised even when Rinpoche was alive.

Malcolm wrote:
One, it is not an empowerment, it is four lungs. Second, SR is correct, there is no problem here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 21st, 2019 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: China issue death sentence against Canadian
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The stupid thing about all this is, this kind of punishment never causes anyone to stop.

Legalize everything, coke, heroin, etc., tax it, pay for treatment programs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 21st, 2019 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: The Sambhogakaya and the mind made body
Content:


jhanapeacock said:
Are they the same?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 8:52 AM
Title: Re: Dharmadhātu and gzhi
Content:
mechashivaz said:
What is the relationship between the two?

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, they are the same thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 8:50 AM
Title: Re: Agency
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is merely a question of distinguishing between conventional use of language versus the insight into the nature of phenomena that results from ultimate analysis.

Wayfarer said:
So Two Truths, right? Truth of conventional designation, saṃvṛti-satya, and ultimate truth, paramārtha-satya. Is that about the gist of it?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It’s convenient to differentiate the perception of sentient beings in this way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 8:44 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It’s not that I can’t answer your questions, it’s that I have already done so multiple times and have no interest in repeating myself ad nauseaum.

Sherab said:
I feel tired having to read the similar explanation multiple times, references to authority without giving the reasoning that backed the authority and the frustrating evasions.  I remain engaged in the thread because I wanted to show my reasons, step by step (to ensure clarity), as to why I think your arguments are not satisfactory because they don't address certain issues within them.  I'll leave it anyway since you expressed your desire to discontinue the discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
I understand your point of view, but I consider your objections quixotic at best.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 7:37 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It’s not that I can’t answer your questions, it’s that I have already done so multiple times and have no interest in repeating myself ad nauseaum.


Sherab said:
What is this object?

Malcolm wrote:
Any given object has two natures, according to Candrakīrti possesses two natures: one ultimate, one relative. If you are not happy with this, take it up with Candrakīrti.

Sherab said:
I went through the possibilities of what the objects of cognition could be for a table and an example and you clearly could not reply my question directly.  Why?

If you bother to try to answer my question directly instead of evading, you will notice that the object of cognition for a relative truth and an ultimate truth for a table can never be the same object until you drill down to the final parts that made up the object.

For the same reason, you will also notice that the object of cognition necessarily has to be a mental image rather than the object itself for a relative truth until you come to the final parts that made up the object.
I am using the concepts of sets.

One set is the set of all objects that are eternal, namely permanent and unchanging.  The other is the set of all objects that cannot be a continuum because they are annihilated.  The set that avoid the two extremes is merely that set for any object that don't fall into either of the two other sets.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, it does not matter whether you use this noun or that noun. Your proposed set is just another extreme: neither existent and nonexistent. This is just the fault of the fourth extreme, which is why it also needs to be negated. It is not enough to negate two extremes. You must negate all four.

Sherab said:
Why I give my reply to your response, I gave my reason.

However your reply to my response is merely an assertion.  Is your assertion based on mere authority or reason?  If it is the latter, why don't you spill it out?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 6:48 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
In what Buddhist tantra was it taught?

treehuggingoctopus said:
Is Achi Chokyi Drolma yidam practice taught in a tantra? Or, for that matter, our Gomadevi?

Malcolm wrote:
Gomadevi, like Mandarava and Yeshe Tsogyal, is a realized historical personage. In her case, she is a realized Dzogchen master who attained the highest realization. Therefore, there can be no questioning the validity of her practice, especially given her association with Guhyajñāna.

Achi Chokyi Drolma, Sakya Pandita, Lonchenpa, Marpa, Mila, Gampopa, Karma Pakshi, etc. are realized historical personages, they all have guru sadhanas, etc.. There is no tantra, per se, that recommends Śakyamuni Buddha as a yidam or Bhaisajyaguru as a Yidam, but indeed, we have kriya tantra practices of these figures, which can be practiced as self-generations by those who have received HYT initiations. The procedures for this are very clearly explained in the tantras.

For all of these practices, precedent can be found in the tantras for the elaboration of their practices.  For those practices like Krodhakālī, one, she is a form of Vajravārāhi, whose practice is fully explained in mother tantras; 2) her sadhana was received from a ḍākinī in Oddiyāna by Mahāsiddha Virupa and transmitted to Tibet by Padampa Sangye, and so on.

But there are no practices involving mundane protectors like Indra, Vaiśravana, and so on, as yidams. And we know what HH Dalai Lama says about relying on mundane protectors as enlightened. He could not have been more clear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Agency
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Apart from moving, how could there be a mover?

Wayfarer said:
I can see the logic, but in everyday experience it is not hard to envisage an object that is at rest, that has been moving. A stone is thrown through the window, evidence of movement is provided by the breakage of the glass and the presence of the stone, which, although now at rest, was previously in motion. But then I suppose the question arises as to the sense in which the stone is an agent, because whatever action it performs is a consequence of some external force imparted to it. So the stone is not an originating actor, and perhaps not 'an agent' in that sense.

Another reference I think ought to be mentioned is the https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.038.niza.html#fn-1, 'no self-doer, no other-doer'. This seems to argue strongly for the existence of agents, or 'self-doers'.  The commentary on this sutta says
Although the Buddha taught that there is no permanent, eternal, immutable, independently-existing core “self” (attā), he also taught that there is “action” or “doing”, and that it is therefore meaningful to speak of one who intends, initiates, sustains and completes actions and deeds, and who is therefore an ethically responsible and culpable being.
I do have some trouble reconciling that argument with the MMK, or the way it is often interpreted, anyway.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Wayfarer:

The key to understanding everything is the term "dependent designation." We don't question the statement "I am going to town." In this there are three appearances, for convenience's sake, a person, a road, and a destination.

A person is designated on the basis of the aggregates, but there is no person in the aggregates, in one of the aggregates, or separate from the aggregates. Agreed? A road is designated in dependence on its parts, agreed? A town s designated upon its parts. Agreed?

If you agree to this, then you should have no problem with the following teaching of the Buddha in the Vimalakīrtinirdeśa Sūtra:

This body arises from various conditions, but lacks a self. This body is like the earth, lacking an agent. This body is like water, lacking a self. This body is like fire, lacking a living being. This body is like the wind, lacking a person. This body is like space, lacking a nature. This body is the place of the four elements, but is not real. This body that is not a self nor pertains to a self is empty.

In other words, when it comes to the conventional use of language, Buddha never rejected statements like "When I was a so and so in a past life, I did so and so, and served such and such a Buddha." Etc. But when it comes to what one can discern on analysis, if there is no person, no self, etc., that exists as more than a mere designation, the fact that agents cannot be discerned on analysis should cause no one any concern. It is merely a question of distinguishing between conventional use of language versus the insight into the nature of phenomena that results from ultimate analysis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 3:06 AM
Title: Re: Agency
Content:
Grigoris said:
Conventionally/Relatively speaking:  the skandha.  Except that they are not you.  You just think they are you.

Malcolm wrote:
If one claims the skandhas are agents, which one is the agent?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: DOUBLE ENDED PHURBA?
Content:
lelopa said:
there are thangkas of the 84 mahasiddhas where lakshminkara has a one-pointed vajra in her hand..... so maybe used not only in shingon!
i think you can find it at himalayan- art ressources

Malcolm wrote:
One even finds one pointed vajras in Tibetan Buddhism, but they are most commonly seen in Shingon and Tendai rites.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Agency
Content:
Rick said:
So, just as there is ultimately no cause-ality per the Madhyamaka, there is no do-ality. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Ferdinand never does X. X is never done, by anyone or anything, period. X simply is, or isn't ... end of story.

?

Malcolm wrote:
It is best if you consult the investigation into movement in the MMK, chapter two. This is where it is shown that agents are mere conventions. If one claims there is agent with agency, one is claiming the agent and the agency are separate. But if you claim that agency is merely a characteristic of an agent, when agent does not exercise agency, it isn't an agent since an agent that is not exercising agency is in fact a non-agent. Therefore, rather than agency being dependent on an agent, an agent is predicated upon exercising agency. For example, take movement. If there is an agent there has to be a moving mover. But there is no mover when there is no moving. Apart from moving, how could there be a mover? But when there is moving, there isn't a mover which is separate from moving. Even movement itself cannot be ascertained until there has been a movement. When there is no movement, there is no agent of movement. When there is moving, there is no agent of moving that can be ascertained to be separate from the moving. And since even moving cannot be ascertained without there either having been movement or not, moving itself cannot be established. Since moving cannot be established, a moving mover cannot be established. If a moving mover cannot be established, an agent cannot be established.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
The Buddhist accounts predate the Nath accounts by some centuries, and this is irrefutable.

Grigoris said:
The written accounts.  The oral accounts?

Yes, I know this is speculative.

Malcolm wrote:
The oral accounts are originally Buddhist.
To add to this, I am not sure if Dowman's book mentions this, but the context of the history composed by Abhayadatta, as described in the empowerment text and the commentary on the vajra songs (vajraḡiti), is that these 84 mahāsiddha gathered together for a grand ganacakra and the songs described therein are their realization declarations uttered during the feast.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Agency
Content:
Rick said:
Is it like the weather:

There is no snowfall agent/doer/entity that causes snow to fall (which it is doing quite nicely today).

?

Malcolm wrote:
No, a falling faller does not make any sense. As Nāgārjuna would put it, apart from snow that has fallen or has not fallen, presently there is no falling.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: DOUBLE ENDED PHURBA?
Content:
Mantrik said:
What is the symbolism behind the double end? I have lots of information on phurbas but don't recall any explanation of this type. I'll have a stab (awful pun) and guess it is to do with destroying internal and external obstructions?
Some describe them as a dorje  - but with phurba blades?


Malcolm wrote:
It is not a double ended phurba, it is a single pointed vajra, used in Shingon.


https://www.ebay.com/i/202387033709?chn=ps


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 20th, 2019 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Agency
Content:
Rick said:
Who or what is the doer, that which does things: types this sentence, intends to learn the dharma, digests breakfast, has a thought, drives a car?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no typing typer, no learning learner, no digesting digester, thinking tinker, or driving driver.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 19th, 2019 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
well, perhaps not, but the question stands.

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen teachings, bodhicitta, the aspiration for full buddhahood in order to benefit sentient beings, arises from seeing that sentient beings suffer because they have not seen the truth.

Given that Dzogchen is part of uncommon Mahāyāna Secret Mantra, its presentation of aspirational and engaged bodhicitta is not actually different than that of common Mahāyāna. Bodhicitta is also fundamental to the path of the Great Perfection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 19th, 2019 at 7:50 AM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:
Wayfarer said:
One question that often occurs to me in these debates is, from whence arises the 'energy of bodhicitta' in all of this? After all bodhicitta-compassion is the fundamental driving motivation of the bodhisattva. But it's not something that can be intellectually contrived, in my experience, nor is it necessarily something under one's control. So how does bodhicitta emerge or fit into this understanding of the 'negation of appearances'?

Malcolm wrote:
We don't negate appearances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 19th, 2019 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:


Sherab said:
What then is your definition of the relative and your definition of the ultimate?

Malcolm wrote:
Consult Candrakīrti. But in brief, an ultimate truth is the object of a veridical cognition; a relative truth is the object of a nonveridical cognition.

Sherab said:
What is this object?

Malcolm wrote:
Any given object has two natures, according to Candrakīrti possesses two natures: one ultimate, one relative. If you are not happy with this, take it up with Candrakīrti.

Sherab said:
I am using the concepts of sets.

One set is the set of all objects that are eternal, namely permanent and unchanging.  The other is the set of all objects that cannot be a continuum because they are annihilated.  The set that avoid the two extremes is merely that set for any object that don't fall into either of the two other sets.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, it does not matter whether you use this noun or that noun. Your proposed set is just another extreme: neither existent and nonexistent. This is just the fault of the fourth extreme, which is why it also needs to be negated. It is not enough to negate two extremes. You must negate all four.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 19th, 2019 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Grigoris said:
So the Buddhist accounts define them as Buddhists, and the Nath accounts define them as Nath.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddhist accounts predate the Nath accounts by some centuries, and this is irrefutable.

Grigoris said:
The written accounts.  The oral accounts?

Yes, I know this is speculative.

Malcolm wrote:
The oral accounts are originally Buddhist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 19th, 2019 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Grigoris said:
So the Buddhist accounts define them as Buddhists, and the Nath accounts define them as Nath.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddhist accounts predate the Nath accounts by some centuries, and this is irrefutable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Poker Player Donates Winnings-600K!!
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Clearly, the result of Gesar practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:
haha said:
Isn't the appearance the aggregate?

Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of appearances: internal, external, pure, impure, nonafflicted, afflicted, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:


Sherab said:
What then is your definition of the relative and your definition of the ultimate?

Malcolm wrote:
Consult Candrakīrti. But in brief, an ultimate truth is the object of a veridical cognition; a relative truth is the object of a nonveridical cognition.



Sherab said:
I misspoke.  It should have been "The regime that avoids the two extremes..."

Malcolm wrote:
How can there be something, no matter what noun you want to use, that avoids the two extremes? If there is something that avoids the two extremes, it is an extreme.

Your use here is an affirming negation. But freedom from extremes is by design a nonaffirming negation. In other words, when one negates existence, nonexistence is not being confirmed. When one negates nonexistence, existence is not being confirmed, and likewise, the same applies to the remaining two extremes. This is the reason why all four extremes are to be negated, not just the first two, otherwise, the fault of being an affirming negation also applies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:


Sherab said:
Yes, but why when causes and conditions are not found (and therefore appearances are not found as well since there are appearances only because of causes and conditions) they are not "destroyed"?

Malcolm wrote:
Because unlike shattering a pot with a hammer, the appearance under analysis do not vanish.

Sherab said:
For you, since you have in the past argued that the relative is the ultimate and vice versa...

Malcolm wrote:
I have never made such a silly argument in my life.

Sherab said:
The regime that is beyond the two extremes...

Malcolm wrote:
Whoever argues there is something beyond freedom from extremes is arguing for an extreme.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I know of no legitimate practice of Shiva as a Buddhist yidam...

Grigoris said:
I do.

Malcolm wrote:
In what Buddhist tantra was it taught?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 5:05 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
PSM said:
To what extent is Shiva seen as having any level of realisation in this literature/lineages?

Grigoris said:
Tibetan Buddhist Shiva practices range from him being a mundane protector, to a Yidam.

Malcolm wrote:
I know of no legitimate practice of Shiva as a Buddhist yidam, but in the Nyingma School Siva is an important dharmapala.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:


Varis said:
Regardless, the point still stands; if Hindu tantra is wrong how did Minapa attain Buddhahood if his guru was Shiva and he presumably would have practiced Saiva tantra?


Malcolm wrote:
The Tibetan text of Mīnapa's story begins by stating that his caste was fisherfolk, his guru was Mahādeva, and his siddhis were mundane siddhis. When you read the story carefully, though it is said he eventually traversed the paths and stages, it does not say that he does so with respect to the instructions he received from Mahādeva. The story is basically charming in its elements. A fisherman gets pulled into the water by a huge fish, and swallowed. Meanwhile, Umadevi is requesting a Dharma teaching from Mahādeva (who as we know, is by now a Buddhist, having been converted by Avalokiteśvara in the Karandavyuha Sūtra, etc. and tamed by Cakrasamvara). Mahādeva says he has a very secret teaching, but it should taught under the ocean, so no on can hear. They repair to their house in the depths of ocean, meanwhile, the fish that has swallowed the fisherman has come to rest below this house, and therefor, the fisherman can hear all that Mahādeva is teaching to Umadevi, who unfortunately falls asleep during the teaching. When Mahādeva realizes that Umadevi was sleeping through the teaching, he looks with the clairvoyance and understands that in the belly of the fish below his house, there is a man. He confers empowerment upon the fish [to empower the man inside it], and the man practices for 12 years in the belly of the fish. The fish is eventually caught, the fisherman is released, and everyone is amazed. The name of the teaching is not mentioned. It is stated Mīnapa, aka Vajrapāda, aka Acinta, works for the benefit of beings for five hundred years.

In the empowerment text composed by one of the Drukchen's on the basis of the empowerment text by Tārānātha, when Mīnapa, aka Acinta, teaches Gorakṣanātha, the name of a text is mentioned, and it is the text Amṛtasiddhi, which was composed by Brahmin Virupa, who in turn is a disciple of Lakṣminkara. According to Mallinson, Amṛtasiddhi is the Buddhist source text upon which all Hathayoga manuals depend.

So, all we really can know, from the earliest text we have on the 84 mahāsiddhas, is that Mīnapa achieved mundane siddhis under the tutelage of Mahādeva, and he eventually attained the state of Khecari, and that according to Tārānātha, the text he taught Gorakṣa is the Buddhist ancestor of Hathayoga.

I should add, there are other instances of Buddhist Vajrayāna traditions that are attributed to Shiva, in Lamdre, for example, where it is clarified that Mahādeva is a disciple of Vajradhara in one specific instructional cycle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Naths are very late. The first mention of Goraksha is by the Indian Buddhist Pandita, Vibhūticandra in the early 13th century.

There is no evidence that the siddhas you mention were Naths, since the earliest mention of all these figures is in Buddhist texts.

Grigoris said:
I am going by the hagiographies and titles in Dowman's book Masters of Mahamudra.  Are you saying that he took liberties?

Malcolm wrote:
It has been thirty-two years since that book was published, and that we have much better informational resources available to us now than we did in 1986, in all areas of historical research on India and Tibet. Dowman's book, in light of modern scholarship, suffers from some anachronisms. It is not a completely reliable guide and one would be wise not to base hard and fast conclusions about the nature of the Mahāsiddhas and their religious affiliations viz. embracing Buddhism and Hinduism together upon his book. Mallinson, as I mentioned, is someone who has spent decades in India studying and practicing yoga, is expert in Sanskrit, and has researched the historical roots of the Naths based on primary material, with reference to the 84 siddhas, and so on.

For example, in his article, The Original Gorakṣaśataka, he notes that there is no use of the term "Nath" to refer to an order of yogis prior to the 18th century. Thus, there are serious problems with the claim that the mahāsiddhas you mention are "naths."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 12:10 AM
Title: Re: Garab Dorje
Content:
Seeker12 said:
So does that make all of the Karmapas emanations of Guru Rinpoche?

Malcolm wrote:
That's the idea.

Seeker12 said:
I can't think of distinct examples otherwise right now, but similar things would be like saying that such-and-such is an emanation of Ananda, or of Vimalamitra, etc, and then the subsequent incarnation of the Tulku line isn't necessarily discussed in the same way.

Malcolm wrote:
Vimalamitra, in the Nyinthig literatures, promises to return to Tibet every one hundred years to correct deviations in Dzogchen teachings.

Seeker12 said:
Can it be that in a particular Tulku line (assuming it's legit), one incarnation is an emanation of so-and-so and the next isn't?

Malcolm wrote:
The criteria by which Tibetans identify this one and that one as an emanation of this one or that one seem to be pretty opaque and lacking a real system. Since this system of recognitions is really not mentioned in any tantra, etc., I consider it culture, not Dharma, and pretty much ignore the entire tulku system as an anachronism that wont function well in the West, and will constantly present problems for Tibetans as much as it solves issues for them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 18th, 2019 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:


Grigoris said:
But if the Hindu Tantric path is so mistaken then how is it that there are 4 Nath Siddhas (5 if you include the kapala siddha Kapalaka) included in the list of 84 Mahasiddhas?

Malcolm wrote:
The Naths are very late. The first mention of Goraksha is by the Indian Buddhist Pandita, Vibhūticandra in the early 13th century.

There is no evidence that the siddhas you mention were Naths, since the earliest mention of all these figures is in Buddhist texts.

Dr. James Mallinson, an excellent Yoga scholar and Sanskritist of my acquaintance, writes about them here:

https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/17972/1/Nath%20Sampradaya.FP.pdf

This is a pretty exhaustive article.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: 51 Mental factors vs 80 Indicative Conceptions
Content:
cyberkaya said:
Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the Abhidharma's grouping of the 51 mental factors (sems byung) and the 80 indicative conceptions (rang bzhin brgyad cu'i kun rtog) which are referenced in Dzogchen texts? Are they completely different systems, are they related? Any reading recommendations for more information? Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
The eighty natural concepts are to be found in the Guhyasāmaja literature, and therefore, they are common to all inner tantras. They refer to eighty concepts that are divided by three groups depending on whether they belong to desire, hatred, or ignorance.

cyberkaya said:
Thank you Malcolm for citing the source. Are a completely separate separate system of describing the workings of ordinary mind? Do these two systems relate?

Malcolm wrote:
They have no overt relationship. They are completely separate systems. You can see some discussion of these in Wedemeyer's Āryadeva's Lamp that Integrates the Practices.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Garab Dorje
Content:
mechashivaz said:
Do all schools of Tibetan Vajrayana view Garab Dorje as a Nirmanakaya? If not, who doesn't and why? Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone who accepts Dzogchen teachings does. Those who do not, don't.

Seeker12 said:
Both the 3rd Karmapa and 5th Dalai Lama are known as being Dzogchen adepts. Does that mean that these schools accept Garab Dorje or is that more particular to individual Karmapas/Dalai Lamas/etc?

Malcolm wrote:
The third Karmapa and the Great Fifth would, can't speak for the rest of the Kagyus or Gelugpas, or Sakyapas for that matter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: Garab Dorje
Content:
mechashivaz said:
Do all schools of Tibetan Vajrayana view Garab Dorje as a Nirmanakaya? If not, who doesn't and why? Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone who accepts Dzogchen teachings does. Those who do not, don't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: 51 Mental factors vs 80 Indicative Conceptions
Content:
cyberkaya said:
Can anyone shed some light on the differences between the Abhidharma's grouping of the 51 mental factors (sems byung) and the 80 indicative conceptions (rang bzhin brgyad cu'i kun rtog) which are referenced in Dzogchen texts? Are they completely different systems, are they related? Any reading recommendations for more information? Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
The eighty natural concepts are to be found in the Guhyasāmaja literature, and therefore, they are common to all inner tantras. They refer to eighty concepts that are divided by three groups depending on whether they belong to desire, hatred, or ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:


Sherab said:
Since you disagree that in the final analysis, causes and conditions themselves cannot be found, therefore you are holding the position that in the final analysis that causes and conditions themselves can be found.  Therefore causes and conditions are real, not illusions.  And because you say that causes and conditions can be found, appearances are therefore not nothing and also not illusions.

Malcolm wrote:
This is what I am disagreeing with:

Sherab said:
...therefore it is accurate to say that there is nothing, truly nothing.  Disagree?

Malcolm wrote:
I disagree with your conclusion that there IS truly nothing as a consequence of causes and conditions being unfindable upon analysis. All we can say is that causes and conditions appear, when that appearance is subject to analysis, it cannot be found. It does not mean one has destroyed the appearance of causes and conditions. Therefore, it is as wrong to say that "causes and conditions are nothing because they cannot be found on analysis" as it is to say that "causes and conditions are something because there is an appearance to investigate."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:


smcj said:
That’s the problem with Madhyamaka.
Yet appearances do appear.
Hence the need for Yogacara.

Pema Rigdzin said:
I don't think Madhyamaka denies appearances. If I'm not mistaken, it just prefers not to make much in the way of positive assertions about them, sticking instead to reductive statements about them. Maybe we need the yogacara element of yogacara-madhyamaka if we want to be able to speak more positively about the rich qualities of the true nature in the context of the sutra level.

PeterC said:
The problems that our friend Sherab is encountering in this discussion seem to arise from trying to take madhyamaka as a position, rather than a method. It is hard to find inconsistencies in argumentation that makes no positive assertions.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. This is Sherab”s error.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Sherab said:
Nothing that appears in the relative can be found in the final analysis, including the causes and conditions themselves.  Agree?  It is the causes and conditions that give rise to appearances.  Since the causes and conditions themselves cannot be found, therefore it is accurate to say that there is nothing, truly nothing.  Disagree?

Malcolm wrote:
Disagree.

Sherab said:
Since you disagree that in the final analysis

Malcolm wrote:
Thus is why it is pointless to discuss anything with you, you run off half-cocked and don’t really pay attention to what is actually being said. The corrrc response would have been “why.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: Tulsi Gabbard
Content:
Yuren said:
Malcolm: you said every Trump supporter is "racist" in this thread?

Malcolm wrote:
No. I said “Everyone who is not a racist is appalled by Trump.” There are many Republicans who are appalled by Trump, but support his policies. On the other hand, all Trump supporters that I personally know are racists and admit it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 9:55 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Sherab said:
It is the basis for what?  Relative phenomena or ultimate phenomena or both?

Malcolm wrote:
It is the basis. You can call it the nature of the mind, if you like, thought that is not perfectly accurate.


Sherab said:
Appearance is Nothing in the final analysis.
But Appearance is not Nothing.
Therefore, Nothing is Not Nothing
See the problem in the logic?

Malcolm wrote:
Your logic, not mine.

I said appearances were not found, I never said they were nothing. You keep saying that. If appearances were nothing, there would be nothing to search or examine. But if they are not found, there is no basis for asserting them to be nothing, since one could not find them to be something.

Sherab said:
Whether you use the adjective "illusory" or not to describe senses and sentient beings, it still does not answer my question.

Malcolm wrote:
As usual, according to you, I never answer your questions satisfactorily. It makes me wonder why you bother asking.

Sherab said:
"Arising from conditions" too does not answer my question because it is an answer that makes sense only to relative phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
I never said that ultimate phenomena arise. I also never said there were any ultimate phenomena, apart from including "ultimate" to indicate there if there were such phenomena, they wold be included in the state of Dzogchen.

Sherab said:
Also since in the final analysis, relative phenomena are nothing, causes and conditions are also nothing.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, your language, not mine. I would never said causes and conditions are nothing, since they appear.

Sherab said:
Therefore, there are no relative phenomena.  Therefore, relative phenomena are illusions.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an error in your logic. If you assert there are no relative phenomena, they cannot be illusions since they are nothing. But I never said relative phenomena were nothing. You did.

Sherab said:
Therefore, the question remains, namely, how do illusions arise when there is nothing for any senses (illusory senses if you like) to perceive?

Malcolm wrote:
I already answered this question.

Sherab said:
Nothing that appears in the relative can be found in the final analysis, including the causes and conditions themselves.  Agree?  It is the causes and conditions that give rise to appearances.  Since the causes and conditions themselves cannot be found, therefore it is accurate to say that there is nothing, truly nothing.  Disagree?

Malcolm wrote:
Disagree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 7:18 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:



Seeker12 said:
And in general, I personally wouldn't necessarily assert that a 'Buddhist' in name that can't even follow these paths is 'superior' somehow to a 'non-Buddhist' in name that can. If a 'Buddhist' can't even follow these, they aren't really Buddhist anyway, I think you could argue.

Malcolm wrote:
I would argue, as does Āryadeva, that given a choice between following virtue or emptiness, follow emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 7:13 AM
Title: Re: Tulsi Gabbard
Content:
ford_truckin said:
Norwegian,

The sheer ignorance and vitriol you display regarding Trump is what's sad. See the things he's accomplished and re-evaluate yourself.

►Move the U.S. Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a win.

ford_truckin said:
►Pull the United States out of the Iranian nuclear deal.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a win.

ford_truckin said:
►Stand up to NATO countries for not ponying up enough money to cover the organization’s expenses and their own defense costs.

Malcolm wrote:
Um, this is a huge misconception about the nature of NATO. NATO exists primarily for US security, not for EU security. Study some history.

ford_truckin said:
►Take on the news media and not back down, exposing bias and agenda-driven journalism intended to run him out of office.

Malcolm wrote:
He definitely exposed bias, his own blatant racism.

ford_truckin said:
►Put an intense focus on immigration, the importance of border security and the cost of illegal immigration, including U.S. citizens killed by the undocumented.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, he really hasn't done any of this.

ford_truckin said:
►Target the ruthless Salvadoran street gang MS-13.

Malcolm wrote:
Hahahahha. Hardly. He does not understand anything at all about MS13.

ford_truckin said:
►Picking James Mattis as Defense secretary, Nikki Haley as ambassador to the United Nations, John Kelly as White House chief of staff and Kellyanne Conway as senior adviser.

Malcolm wrote:
Hahahaha, oh, you mean the guy who resigned from being Secretary of Defense because he completely disagrees with Trump. Or the guy who left being Chief of Staff, because Trump has absolutely no discipline? Or the lady who left being UN ambassador, because she got tired of being blindsided by Trumps tweets? Kellyanne is the biggest liar in DC, second only to her boss.

ford_truckin said:
►Begin a dialogue with North Korea about ending its nuclear weapons program.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, we have been in a dialogue with NK about this for some decades now.

ford_truckin said:
►Focus attention on Rust Belt states and give respect to white working-class voters, overlooked by the elites on both coasts.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is why coal is coming back strong (hint, it isn't, it is dying despite Trumps' best efforts).

ford_truckin said:
►Challenge elitism and question what it means to be “elite.”

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, he'd like elite to mean "white" again. Him and his racist buddy, Steve King.

ford_truckin said:
►Create millions of new jobs (the White House claims as many as 3 million) and bring unemployment down to 3.9 percent, the lowest since 2000.



Malcolm wrote:
Um no, that was Obama, actually. Right not Trump is destroying the economy that Obama carefully nurtured with a ridiculous trade war and now, the shutdown.

ford_truckin said:
►Focus national attention on the opiod crisis, including a look at doctors who overprescribe pain pills.

Malcolm wrote:
No, he did not do this. The news media did this.

ford_truckin said:
►Nominate impressive Supreme Court candidates Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh.

Malcolm wrote:
Not impressive, especially the beer guy.

ford_truckin said:
►Propose and help pass a tax cut and cut federal regulations.

Malcolm wrote:
Both huge mistakes that only help rich people get richer and poor people get poorer and sicker.

ford_truckin said:
►Renegotiate unfair trade deals in search of better terms.

Malcolm wrote:
No, try disrupt relations with important allies,  roil the markets, then claim his new deal, which did not actually pass through Congress yet and does not change anything, "an improvement."

ford_truckin said:
►Target racial preferences at colleges and universities, which often hurt intended beneficiaries by lowering standards.

Malcolm wrote:
The lawsuit to which you refer has nothing to do with Trump, and in any event, has not worked its way through the courts.

ford_truckin said:
►Refocus immigration debate by ending DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals) and trying to force Congress to confront the thorny issue of what to do with "Dreamers," who were brought to the USA illegally when they were kids.

Malcolm wrote:
One of the more cruel things Trump has done.

ford_truckin said:
►Shake up both the Republican and Democratic establishments and remain independent from the Washington cartel.

Malcolm wrote:
Under Trump the swamp is deeper than ever. He didn't drain it, he filled it.

ford_truckin said:
►Make politics more accessible to people who have rarely voted or cared about it, and widen the door of civic engagement.

Malcolm wrote:
This is true, because we must get this disaster out of office, as soon as possible, by whatever expedient we can.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Sherab said:
It is the basis for what?  Relative phenomena or ultimate phenomena or both?

Malcolm wrote:
It is the basis. You can call it the nature of the mind, if you like, thought that is not perfectly accurate.


Sherab said:
Appearance is Nothing in the final analysis.
But Appearance is not Nothing.
Therefore, Nothing is Not Nothing
See the problem in the logic?

Malcolm wrote:
Your logic, not mine.

I said appearances were not found, I never said they were nothing. You keep saying that. If appearances were nothing, there would be nothing to search or examine. But if they are not found, there is no basis for asserting them to be nothing, since one could not find them to be something.

Sherab said:
Whether you use the adjective "illusory" or not to describe senses and sentient beings, it still does not answer my question.

Malcolm wrote:
As usual, according to you, I never answer your questions satisfactorily. It makes me wonder why you bother asking.

Sherab said:
"Arising from conditions" too does not answer my question because it is an answer that makes sense only to relative phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
I never said that ultimate phenomena arise. I also never said there were any ultimate phenomena, apart from including "ultimate" to indicate there if there were such phenomena, they wold be included in the state of Dzogchen.

Sherab said:
Also since in the final analysis, relative phenomena are nothing, causes and conditions are also nothing.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, your language, not mine. I would never said causes and conditions are nothing, since they appear.

Sherab said:
Therefore, there are no relative phenomena.  Therefore, relative phenomena are illusions.

Malcolm wrote:
This is an error in your logic. If you assert there are no relative phenomena, they cannot be illusions since they are nothing. But I never said relative phenomena were nothing. You did.

Sherab said:
Therefore, the question remains, namely, how do illusions arise when there is nothing for any senses (illusory senses if you like) to perceive?

Malcolm wrote:
I already answered this question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:
smcj said:
The next person of import is an 11-12th century fellow named Yumo Mikyo Dorje, a master in the Bro lineage of Kalacakra. He is the one who is considered to have elaborated a so called "tantric gzhan stong."
What is the difference between "tantric Shentong" and "sutra Shentong"? I've not been able to find anything on that.

Malcolm wrote:
Tantric gzhan stong is Yumo's perspective on the six limb yoga and Vajrayāna in general, which is heavily informed by the Uttaratantra. As I mentioned, he rejects both Sautantrika and Prasanga Madhyamaka, and Dzogchen in addition, as being annihilationist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
No attention is being paid to the vast majority of humanity who do not seek nor understand liberation from samsara.  All they want is less suffering and more happiness.  This is provided by any spiritual path when one intends to put less attention to personal vices and more attention to virtues.

Seeker12 said:
Dudjom Rinpoche is very clear in saying that the Path of Gods and Men/Path of Brahma is basically the foundation for the Buddhist path(s). He says that if one is well established on such a path, one is very close to liberation - I believe that may be a Sutra quote but I don't have it handy at the moment.

Malcolm wrote:
Lets be very clear what that path entails: it entails practicing loving kindness, compassion, joy, and equanimity and avoiding the ten nonvirtues. It seems to me that since not even Buddhists are very good at this, why should we expect much from those who belong to other faiths.

My observation is that age and maturity are more telling factors in governing moral and ethical behavior than religious background, actually. And quite frankly, in terms of ethical thought, all the religious systems of the world, including Buddhism, are pretty poor in terms of well-developed and articulated theories of moral sentiment and ethics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Seeker12 said:
It seems to me that many 'Buddhists' often have a tendency to fairly strongly denigrate such paths, which to me is mistaken.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm, yeah, because there is a four thousand year history of violence and ethnic cleansing, still going strong, when it comes to the Abrahamic religions. Has any seen the way Africans are treated by Israelis. Disgusting, not to mention they way they treat Palestinians.


Indian Nonbuddhist religion fares little better in this respect. After all, the bible of Hinduism, the Bhagavad Gita, is a religious dialogue set in the midst of a brutal internecine between relatives. Then, of course, there is the racism of the varna system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 6:06 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:


Sherab said:
Dzogpa Chenpo is always there to be realized isn't it?  So why is there a difference?

Malcolm wrote:
When Dzogchen is not realized, it is the basis.

Sherab said:
So ultimate phenomena is the phenomena at the limit of analysis?  What is this limit?

Malcolm wrote:
When you find it, report back to us.

Sherab said:
Let me guess: the limit of analysis is that there is nothing to be found.  Therefore the statement that Dzogchen is the single state of relative and ultimate phenomena means that at the limit of analysis there is nothing that can be found.

In other words, at the limit of analysis nothing is found.  The ultimate phenomena is therefore nothing.  Since the ultimate is nothing, the relative phenomena is also nothing.

Since both relative and ultimate phenomena is nothing, they can only be illusions.  They are not even illusion-like as the Gelugpas tended to argue.

Malcolm wrote:
I would not say that such phenomena are nothing, since they appear. They cannot be found on analysis, but since their existence cannot be found, also their nonexistence cannot be found either.

You must have seen that I have introduced elsewhere Rongzom's assertion that only in Dzogchen are the full implications of illusion spelled out: with the consequence that everything, including buddhahood, is absolutely equivalent with an illusion.

Sherab said:
If the argument is correct, then natural follow-on question would be how do illusions arise when there is nothing for any senses to perceive?

Malcolm wrote:
Illusory senses of illusory sentient beings perceive illusory appearances, which arise just like phantasms in the sky, and so on. This is the meaning of arising from conditions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:



Seeker12 said:
Is there a basis for this view in any scripture?

Malcolm wrote:
No, in fact.

Seeker12 said:
That's what I thought, and seems to be really a pretty basic mistake if I'm understanding correctly, because any phenomenon whatsoever arises via dependent origination. It's not about finding something 'outside' of this process, but rather realizing the nature of the process itself. Do you know how the gzhan stong view like this got started - who started it, based on what, etc? Was it a reaction against a sort of nihilistic interpretation of Madhyamaka?

If you don't know offhand certainly don't look it up - I could do that - but if you know I'd be curious. And for any feedback otherwise.

Malcolm wrote:
It arose out of the experience of an early 11th century Tibetan named Tsen Kawoche, who was a disciple of a Kashmiri master, Sajjana, who taught the five treatises of Maitreya to a group of Tibetans, of which Tsen was a part. Unfortunately, it is recorded that Tsen did not understand Sanskrit well. Nevertheless, when he returned to Tibet, he began a school of exegesis on the five treatises. These days some gzhan stong pas claim his school is the experiential transmission of the Uttaratantra, as opposed to Ngog Lotsawa's school of exegetical transmission (Ngog is the translator of the five treatises and was present during these same teachings).

The next person of import is an 11-12th century fellow named Yumo Mikyo Dorje, a master in the Bro lineage of Kalacakra. He is the one who is considered to have elaborated a so called "tantric gzhan stong." In fact, Yumo asserts both forms of Madhyamaka as well as Dzogchen advance a nihilistic emptiness. This is funny if one considers that some Nyingmapas, perhaps unaware of the intellectual history of gzhan stong, have embraced it.

Dolbuwa combined both of these masters views into a comprehensive system labeled gzhan stong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to gzhan stong, the ultimate (parinispanna) is empty of all relative phenomena (paratantra and parikalpita), and is utterly distinct from it.

Seeker12 said:
Is there a basis for this view in any scripture?

Malcolm wrote:
No, in fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Dan74 said:
Likewise some need precise instructions and some do better when guided as little as necessary and allowed to find their own way.

Malcolm wrote:
Most beings just remain hopelessly lost in samsara.

Dan74 said:
Indeed. And some also lost in the maps out of it. It takes all sorts...

Malcolm wrote:
I'd still rather have the the Buddhist map. At least it was written by a Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Grigoris said:
I may agree with one over the other, but that is just my conceptualising and dualising mind playing games.

Malcolm wrote:
I will keep that in mind and ignore all of your comments then, since they are just the random mutterings of your mind and are not to be taken seriously on any level.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Dan74 said:
Likewise some need precise instructions and some do better when guided as little as necessary and allowed to find their own way.

Malcolm wrote:
Most beings just remain hopelessly lost in samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
billy hudson said:
Would it be improper to add the Dogpa from the Short Tun to the Guru Yoga of the White A (w/ Garap Dorje) after the last Song of the Vajra and before the Dedication?

thanx!

Malcolm wrote:
One must transform into a deity in order to do this. But, this is not a problem, per se, since the short thun is actually an abbreviated form of Guru Yoga of the White A.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not merely an opinion. There is an entire Madhyamaka literature which definitively refutes the Yogācāra school in terms of citations and reasoning.

Grigoris said:
And the Catholics have a few things to say about Protestant and Orthodox Christians...

Malcolm wrote:
Greg, you are not conversing in good faith.

Now, if you have arguments which prove Mādhyamika scholars are incorrect in their refutations of Yogacāra, please present them or assent to the point.

Otherwise, it looks very much as if you are advocating a position which declares all religious positions to be valid on their own terms, immune from the refutations of others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Dan74 said:
[J]ust how important are the conceptual frameworks?

Malcolm wrote:
According to Āryadeva, very important as he asserts liberation arises from the view.

Grigoris said:
Given that conceptual frameworks are intellectual, how does this square with the fact that in other threads you have stated repeatedly that liberation is not a product of mind?

Malcolm wrote:
Context is everything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to all Indian Mādhyamikas, if someone's practice is based on the Yogacāra view, the latter will not achieve the path of seeing.

Grigoris said:
That is an opinion, not a fact.

An opinion that proved rather dangerous for the Jonangpa.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is not merely an opinion. There is an entire Madhyamaka literature which definitively refutes the Yogācāra school in terms of citations and reasoning. Not to mention many mentions in the tantras where Yogacāra is relegated to an inferior position.

With respect to the Jonangpas, they were not banned because of gzhan stong. Jonang was suppressed because they supported the King of Tsang during the war between the King of Tsang and the Ganden Phodrang of the Great Fifth.

Also, it is an error to assert that east Asian Buddhists are "Yogacārins." Yogācāra is a well understood school in East Asian Buddhism, thanks to Hsuan Tsang, and no one really follows his school. Yogacāra is definitely not considered a definitive position by native Huayen scholars, Tientai scholars, Chan scholars, and so on.

Interestingly enough, the idea that East Asian Buddhism is unduly influenced by Yogacāra is basically a Gelgupa idea advanced by Thuken and taken up by some western scholars.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But this is a difficult point and is not agreed upon by all.

Grigoris said:
Probably because it makes no sense:  Something is either extinguished/quenched or it isn't.

Malcolm wrote:
Arhats and pratyekabuddhas have extinguished all of their afflictions and fetters. If there were no intervention on the part of the Buddhas, they would just continue in their samadhi of cessation, free of the aggregates, forever and ever.

While there is no difference between the nirvanas of arhats and pratyekabuddhas on the one hand, and the nirvana of a buddha on the other, there is one importance difference between arhats and pratyekabuddhas on the one hand and bodhisattvas on the pure stages and buddhas on the other, the bodhisattvas on the pure stages and buddhas do not remain in nirvana. This is sometimes called "nonabiding nirvana." The difference is not in content, i.e., the nirvana is the same; the difference is in whether or not the ārya in question abides or does not abide in that cessation. Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do abide in that cessation, buddhas and bodhisattvas do not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Dan74 said:
[J]ust how important are the conceptual frameworks?

Malcolm wrote:
According to Āryadeva, very important as he asserts liberation arises from the view.

Dan74 said:
For instance, a Theravada Buddhist may couch her experience of a great relinquishing of the obsession with "me" and "mine" in terms of anatta, emptiness of Self, etc while a Xtian mystic may describe a very similar insight as a getting out of the way of Divine Light.

Malcolm wrote:
No. These two are in no way related.

The vipaśyāna of the Buddhist you describe above results in the destruction of afflictions that cause rebirth.

The insight of the Christian you describe above does not destroy anything and does not release this person from grasping to self, lead to the realization of emptiness, or anything remotely similar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nirvana refers to the state of cessation. Cessation of what? one has to ask. Cessation of birth in samsara. By what is rebirth in samsara caused? It is caused by the afflictions that lead to karma, which in turn ripen as suffering.

Arhats, pratyekabuddhas, bodhisattvas on the three pure stages, and buddhas are not subject to rebirth in samsara.Why? Because they have eliminated the afflictive obscuration.

However, in order to attain full buddhahood, one must gather the two accumulations. Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not gather the full two accumulations, and therefore, have obscurations to omniscience, and also do not bear the major and minor marks (bodhisattvas on the three pure stages also have obscurations to omniscience). Thus, according to the Lanka and other sūtras, they are roused from their samadhis of cessation, encouraged to complete their two accumulations and eliminate their two obscurations, beginning with the Mahāyāna path of accumulation. Even Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not get a short cut to buddhahood.

Grigoris said:
In which case you are talking about two types of Nirvana:  a partial and a complete Nirvana.

Malcolm wrote:
No. By definition, nirvana is the cessation of defilements that lead to samsaric rebirth. Arhats and pratyekabuddhas are not subject to samsaric birth, but they do need to accumulate the two accumulations in order to attain full buddhahood. Some assert arhats enter the path of cultivation on the seventh bhumi. But this is a difficult point and is not agreed upon by all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In terms of philosophical positions, this assertion (that self-aware clarity is ultimate) does not go beyond Yogacāra. As a consequence, meditating from a perspective that holds that such self-aware clarity is ultimate leads to rebirth in the formless realms at best.

Grigoris said:
So East Asian Chan and Zen practices (which tend to be based on the Yogachara view) lead to, at best, rebirth in the formless realms?

Malcolm wrote:
According to all Indian Mādhyamikas, if someone's practice is based on the Yogacāra view, the latter will not achieve the path of seeing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Grigoris said:
Really?  So the Nirvana of an Arhat is the same as the Nirvana of a Samyak-Sambuddha?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Grigoris said:
Then why then, according to some discourses, does an Arhat need to "awaken" from their Nirvana to achieve Samyak-Sambuddhahood if their Nirvana is the same?

Malcolm wrote:
Nirvana refers to the state of cessation. Cessation of what? one has to ask. Cessation of birth in samsara. By what is rebirth in samsara caused? It is caused by the afflictions that lead to karma, which in turn ripen as suffering.

Arhats, pratyekabuddhas, bodhisattvas on the three pure stages, and buddhas are not subject to rebirth in samsara.Why? Because they have eliminated the afflictive obscuration.

However, in order to attain full buddhahood, one must gather the two accumulations. Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not gather the full two accumulations, and therefore, have obscurations to omniscience, and also do not bear the major and minor marks (bodhisattvas on the three pure stages also have obscurations to omniscience). Thus, according to the Lanka and other sūtras, they are roused from their samadhis of cessation, encouraged to complete their two accumulations and eliminate their two obscurations, beginning with the Mahāyāna path of accumulation. Even Arhats and pratyekabuddhas do not get a short cut to buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Tulsi Gabbard
Content:


Queequeg said:
I want someone who at a gut level cares about people, stands with middle and working classes, understands the gravity of environmental issues, and is ready to go toe-to-toe for the full fight, not just built for quick knockouts. We've got a generational fight, literally for survival on our hands, and we need someone who understands that. Bernie

Malcolm wrote:
No need to tip toe...

Bernie 2020.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
The Xtian Dean Inge gives some definitions,

Malcolm wrote:
everyone of which is irrelevant is this forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Does the buddhadharma have one and only one definition of nirvana?

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty much.

Grigoris said:
Really?  So the Nirvana of an Arhat is the same as the Nirvana of a Samyak-Sambuddha?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 17th, 2019 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This kind of self-awareness is rejected in Dzogchen teachings, since it does not go beyond the level of yogacāra and leads to the formless realms.

Grigoris said:
So , are you saying that Yogachara is not a valid path of liberation and that it only leads to rebirth in the formless realms?

Malcolm wrote:
In terms of philosophical positions, this assertion (that self-aware clarity is ultimate) does not go beyond Yogacāra. As a consequence, meditating from a perspective that holds that such self-aware clarity is ultimate leads to rebirth in the formless realms at best.

And yes, the Yogacāra position will not lead to the path of seeing, since it is realist position, and is refuted in detail by such Mādhyamika authors as Āryavimuktisena, Candrakīrti, Bhāva, Śantideva, Śantarakṣita, Atisha, and so on


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 11:06 PM
Title: What is the nature of mind?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
So, since you hold clarity as ultimate, how can it cognize or be aware of anything, including itself?

tatpurusa said:
So you say nature of mind is not self-aware? How do you reconcile this with Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of self-awareness is rejected in Dzogchen teachings, since it does not go beyond the level of yogacāra and leads to the formless realms.

With respect to this: Phenomena are created by avidya and are illusion by definition.
They originate from the incapacity of the conceptual mind to percieve reality as it is.
This contradicts your assertion that phenomena are created by the nature of the mind:

tatpurusa said:
All possible phenomena appear from the nature, withinin the nature and liberate back to the nature.

Malcolm wrote:
With respect to this statement:
Maybe you think "nature of mind" (not nature of "the" mind!) is a possession or a part of the mind.
If it is isn't an aspect of mind, it is stupid to call it "nature of mind," or "nature of the mind" since it is something different from "mind" or "the mind." (The presence or absence of the article "the" does not change the meaning at all).

tatpurusa said:
Why would you need an instrument to perceive something that is not dualistically separate from the perceiver?

Malcolm wrote:
Direct perceptions require subject apprehenders and apprehended objects. If you claim the nature of the mind needs to be directly perceived, you have to define both the means of perception as well as the object being perceived.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Adamantine said:
How does all of this history of Buddhist tantrikas battling Hindus or Bonpos in debate, winning and apparently humiliating them.. jive with the 12th root downfall of the 14? "To cause those beings who have faith
To grow disillusioned is the twelfth.", as I was taught this applies to those with faith in other traditions, not just other Buddhists...

Malcolm wrote:
It does not in fact apply, since these Hindus and  Bonpos actively sought to harm  Buddhadharma, or so it is told.



Adamantine said:
I see. So that’s a context for one type of exception..

Malcolm wrote:
Aside from that, there is the fact that 12th samaya only applies to Buddhists. It has nothing to do with nonbuddhists at all, despite what you may have been told.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Tulsi Gabbard
Content:


Nemo said:
The irony about Gabbard is her antiwar views...that makes her so unpalatable to the elites.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think that's it. It might have a little to do with the Assad thing...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Does the buddhadharma have one and only one definition of nirvana?

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 9:20 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Adamantine said:
How does all of this history of Buddhist tantrikas battling Hindus or Bonpos in debate, winning and apparently humiliating them.. jive with the 12th root downfall of the 14? "To cause those beings who have faith
To grow disillusioned is the twelfth.", as I was taught this applies to those with faith in other traditions, not just other Buddhists...

Malcolm wrote:
It does not in fact apply, since these Hindus and  Bonpos actively sought to harm  Buddhadharma, or so it is told.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Tulsi Gabbard
Content:
PeterC said:
The democrat candidate who would be most likely to beat trump is probably Sanders.

Malcolm wrote:
Bernie 2020.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Tulsi Gabbard
Content:
Queequeg said:
I've been a fan of Gabbard for a while.

She's retired Navy.

Malcolm wrote:
No, she active in the Hawaii Army National Guard, with the rank of major.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: Tulsi Gabbard
Content:



MiphamFan said:
They should get a genuine left-leaning candidate willing to fight the banks, the military-industrial complex, and to develop American industry to inspire the flyover states.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we should just eliminate the electoral college so that the progressive west coast and the east coast (where most of the population is) cease to be held hostage by the regressive politics of the middle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:



tatpurusa said:
Emptyness, clarity and their inseparability is nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
So here you mean clarity is ultimate? How can the nature of mind be ultimate if it is held to have parts?

tatpurusa said:
Nature of mind has no parts. These are aspects of the nature, not parts. And they are not different from one another.
Even so, being concepts they are just attempts by the masters to express the inexpressible experience.
They are just meant as a help to recognize it.

Malcolm wrote:
So, since you hold clarity as ultimate, how can it cognize or be aware of anything, including itself?

tatpurusa said:
The nature of mind is not latent (referring to krodha's saying "latent and unrecognized nature of mind") and not contained in anything.

Malcolm wrote:
When krodha says the nature of the mind is "latent," he means it is not something which is obvious to everyone. For example, like a crocodile under the water.

tatpurusa said:
Because the nature is not an object, not a phenomenon, not a concept but emptyness which is infinite potentiality.
All possible phenomena appear from the nature, withinin the nature and liberate back to the nature.
The have no separate, inherent existence.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are claiming a nonphenomena as a source of phenomena? How does that happen?

tatpurusa said:
The ordinary conditioned mind operates only with objects, categories, concepts. That is all.
The nature of mind is not an object, not a concept, not a phenomenon.

So the ordinary mind cannot percieve it, because it is looking for an object outside or inside of itself.

It can of course make a concept and an object out of the nature of mind through abstraction, but this is not real experience.
This is why it will never be able to percieve it

Malcolm wrote:
So here, you are absolutely claiming that the mind can never see its own nature. Right?

tatpurusa said:
The clarity of the nature of mind means it is self-aware.

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by self-aware? Is this clarity of the nature of the mind part of the mind or something different than the mind?

If is not different than the mind, why claim the mind cannot see its own nature?

If it is different than the mind, why call it the nature of the mind since it is other than the mind?

tatpurusa said:
The way of recognizing nature is direct perception, not through the conceptual mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Direct perception with what instrument of perception?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:


tatpurusa said:
The nature of mind is ultimate reality and can never be obscured nor is it latent. It is simply as it is.

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by the nature of the mind? Its emptiness?

tatpurusa said:
Emptyness, clarity and their inseparability is nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
So here you mean clarity is ultimate? How can the nature of mind be ultimate if it is held to have parts?


What you said above is, "All possible phenomena are latent within the infinite potentialy of emptyness, not the nature of mind."

So are you saying that all phenomena are not possible within the nature of mind? Or is there some typo here?

tatpurusa said:
It [avidyā] does not obscure anything.
We are just looking with the wrong instrument.
The ordinary conditioned mind being just another sense organ; we could say it is like trying to smell with our eyes.

Malcolm wrote:
With what faculty does one see the nature of the mind, if not with the mind itself?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Open call for Moderator suggestions
Content:
Admin_PC said:
We're looking to back-fill 2, preferably 3 moderator positions.
Would appreciate any serious suggestions or volunteers.
It would be nice to have at least one candidate with a background in Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Rotating moderation staff to prevent concentration of authority and burnout.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
it most definitely was the attitude -- just look at the origin story of Heruka. Look at the accounts of Virupa, Guru Rinpoche, Tilopa, etc. subjugating Hindus, and it continues in Tibet with many stories of Buddhists defeating Bonpos both in debate and in contests of magic.

tatpurusa said:
And those "subjugations" had utterly political reasons ...

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that it contradicts your assertion that Mahāsiddhas were somehow above entering into the fray. In fact the opposite is true. The usual story is that once a Hindu [or a Bonpo] would lose in debate, they would resort to sorcery, and would be defeated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:


tatpurusa said:
The nature of mind is ultimate reality and can never be obscured nor is it latent. It is simply as it is.

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by the nature of the mind? Its emptiness?


tatpurusa said:
All possible phenomena are latent within the infinite potentialy of emptyness, not the nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
The nature of the mind is not empty?


tatpurusa said:
Avidya is the incapacity of the conditioned ordinary mind to operate outside its concepts and categories.

Malcolm wrote:
Thus it obscures the nature of the mind, just as clouds cover the sun, from the perspective of someone standing on the ground in a rainstorm. It does not mean the sun as has ceased shining. But the sun is obscured for such a person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Interesting excerpt from the (Hindu) Mahanirvana Tantra
Content:
Pero said:
Not really. We aren't all part of a tathagatagarbha.

Grigoris said:
I think your are being overly literal in the interpretation of the passage.

The Tathagatagarbha is also referred to as the Dharmadhatu in some traditions, where the Dharmadhatu is the ground/space of all existence.

Malcolm wrote:
Tathāgatagarbha is also referred to in the Lanka as the all-basis consciousness and as a term for those who are afraid of emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Grigoris said:
There are four Nath Siddhas mentioned among the 84 Mahasiddhas: Goraksha, Caurangipa, Kantalipa and Carbaripa.

Malcolm wrote:
Still exceptions, not the rule.

tatpurusa said:
Sure, a minority of 5 (with Minapa) among 84.
My original point was that contrary to scholars who during Buddhist history consistently argued against Hinduism I am not
sure that this was the general attitude among the highest practitioners (like Mahasiddhas) too.

Malcolm wrote:
it most definitely was the attitude -- just look at the origin story of Heruka. Look at the accounts of Virupa, Guru Rinpoche, Tilopa, etc. subjugating Hindus, and it continues in Tibet with many stories of Buddhists defeating Bonpos both in debate and in contests of magic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Grigoris said:
There are four Nath Siddhas mentioned among the 84 Mahasiddhas: Goraksha, Caurangipa, Kantalipa and Carbaripa.

Malcolm wrote:
Still exceptions, not the rule.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 16th, 2019 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
tatpurusa said:
And also Mina/Matsyendra/Luipa

Grigoris said:
There is no mention in Luipa's biography that he held a Hindu lineage.  Just that his teacher was Savaripa.

You are right about Minapa though.  He is supposed to have received his practice directly from Mahadeva himself.

Malcolm wrote:
Goraksanatha was his disciple.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 15th, 2019 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:


tatpurusa said:
Though I am aware that historically there have been a lot of debate between Buddhist and Hindu scholars, I am nevertheless not sure that this has been the general attitude of high practitioners.

Malcolm wrote:
Have you read Buddhist history? The stories of Āryadeva, Dharmakīrti, Virupa, Tilopa, etc., defeating Hindus in both debate and magical battles?

tatpurusa said:
Yes.
But I have also read about Mahasiddhas who initiated both Buddhist and Hindu Lineages.

Malcolm wrote:
Umm, Gorakshanātha is rather the exception than the rule.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 15th, 2019 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:


smcj said:
BTW, just for the record, these days I personally am gravitating away from Shentong and towards what I think Situ R. calls "rongtong ma yin gag"(?). From what I could make of his explanation, it is basically Madhyamaka with the positive qualities of Buddha Nature naturally occurring. That way emptiness can be presented as the tetra lemma, but also having spontaneous positive qualities, without the whole problem of positing an unmanifest sub-stratum, etc. It splits the difference.

Malcolm wrote:
In other words, you are leaning towards a true Madhyamaka understanding of the buddhanature doctrine, more like Longchenpa and less like Dolbupa.

This is a good thing. Tathāgatagarbha is not necessarily in conflict with the view of Nāgārjuna and Candrakīrti, thought it still remains a provisional doctrine that requires some interpretation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 15th, 2019 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I once forced Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso to admit (I have a witness, incidentally) that there was no substantial difference between Advaita Vedanta and Gzhan stong in terms of how they presented their view.

smcj said:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8318&p=102251&hilit=advaita%20greg#p102251

I think it important to acknowledge how epic Malcolm's accomplishment is in that boast. Khenpo Tsultrim would be loathe to admit that his personal view was equivalent to a tirthika heresy. Khenpo Tsultrim doesn't speak English, so Malcolm had to best him in Tibetan. And Khenpo Tsultrim is one of the top Kagyu Khenpos. That's freaking amazing. And I believe Malcolm. I have confidence he is capable of such a thing. I do not believe he just make that up.

PeterC said:
With no disrespect meant to either Malcolm or KTG, I would need a bit more context on the nature of the similarity/difference before concluding that Shentong was monistic

Malcolm wrote:
There are structural similarities in the way gzhan stong and Advaita articulate the distinction between ultimate and relative. According to gzhan stong, the ultimate (parinispanna) is empty of all relative phenomena (paratantra and parikalpita), and is utterly distinct from it. Likewise, nirguna brahmin is devoid of māya. In this respect they are structurally similar. KTG admitted this structural similarity, and protested, that nevertheless, there is no buddhahood in Advaita. This conversation was conducted with his translator, Jim Scott, it happened in 1992, so I doubt Scott would remember.

However, this does not make gzhan stong monistic. My point was quite different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 15th, 2019 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:


Sherab said:
What is the difference between stating that "Dzogchen is the result that arose without a cause" and "Dzogchen has no cause and therefore is not a result?"

...

If there is a difference, what then is the difference?

Malcolm wrote:
The result has always been there to be realized.


Sherab said:
What is the meaning of ultimate in "ultimate phenomena"?

Malcolm wrote:
The limit of analysis, that is all ultimate (paramārtha) means.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 15th, 2019 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Wayfarer said:
But I now realise that Buddhists traditionally saw the Hindu sages as heretics and adversaries, to be defeated in debate and generally viewed with disdain.

tatpurusa said:
Though I am aware that historically there have been a lot of debate between Buddhist and Hindu scholars, I am nevertheless not sure that this has been the general attitude of high practitioners.

Malcolm wrote:
Have you read Buddhist history? The stories of Āryadeva, Dharmakīrti, Virupa, Tilopa, etc., defeating Hindus in both debate and magical battles?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 15th, 2019 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Wayfarer said:
But I now realise that Buddhists traditionally saw the Hindu sages as heretics and adversaries, to be defeated in debate and generally viewed with disdain. I was a bit shocked when I first encountered that.   Now that I understand the historical context a little better, I can understand it, kind of. But the world is a global village, and a very different context for the discussion. I remember the cross-cultural Christian Advaitin, Bede Griffith, remarking once that the real adversary of any spiritual philosophy today is the scientific materialism which rules the secular west, which sees all consciousness as a mere adaption, and that devotees of all traditions would do well to remember it.

Malcolm wrote:
I would much rather live in a world where scientific materialism rules the secular west, than a world in which the west becomes taken over by the batshit crazy evangelical Christians, who are in fact no different in their thinking that ISIS, the Taliban, etc. At least, scientific materialism operates from an evidence-based perspective, even if it is not complete picture. Candrakīrti observes that Buddhists in reality are very similar to Caravakas, ancient Indian materialists, with the exception that Buddhists accept the dependent origination of individual consciousness, whereas Carvakas asserted that "things just happen."

The issue at hand is the incompatibility of Theism in any of its forms, with Buddhism. Even Advaita is, in the end, a substantialist metaphysical system. Only Buddhism can claim to be free of substantialist metaphysics. What substantialist ideas there are in Buddhism in the Nikāya schools are arguably the result of the influence of Western ideas that came to India through the conquest of Bactria by Alexander. But where they are present in lower schools, they are negated in Mahāyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 9:28 AM
Title: Re: What are the Undeniables of Dzogchen Practice?
Content:



Crazywisdom said:
Ok what else does this entail?

Malcolm wrote:
It cannot be discussed in an open forum.

Crazywisdom said:
Well for one, you’ve mentioned rebirth in a Pure Land just from this direct perception. Not discussable?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s better not to discuss these things in detail. They won’t have faith in them, and they will slander the Dharma in their ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Important Kagyu texts
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Despite the fact that Cakrasamvara seems to be one of the main yidams of the Kagyu school, nevertheless, the main tantra they study is Hevajra. You need the wang at minimum to study either scripture.

Miroku said:
Just to make it clear, at least wang for either deity is enough. There is no separate thing for the tantras. And the shastra can be studied without anything. Correct?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the wang for either deity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: What are the Undeniables of Dzogchen Practice?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
What are those facts beyond change of Dzogchen Practice? What are the points that simply cannot be denied, or refuted by anyone?

Malcolm wrote:
Direct perception.

Crazywisdom said:
Ok what else does this entail?

Malcolm wrote:
It cannot be discussed in an open forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Important Kagyu texts
Content:
Miroku said:
Hi,

I would like to deepend my understanding and so would like to ask which Kagyu and especially Drikung Kagyu texts are important for a study? Are there some sutras which are improtant for Tibetan Buddhism? Which works that have been translated to english from (Drikung) Kagyu masters are important?

Malcolm wrote:
The three basic texts of the Kagyu school are: the Hevajra Tantra, the Uttaratantra, and Gampopa's Ornament of Liberation.

Miroku said:
Thank you!

Since I don't have Hevajra Empowerment I presume it is out of reach for the moment. The Uttaratantra do you mean http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Uttaratantra_Shastra? Since it is supposed to be mahayana, it should be available even without lung, right?
What about the Chakrasamvara tantra? Is it also important for the Kagyu, since nowadays Chakrasamvara is now basically THE yidam of Kagyu? Can it be studied if one has received the initiation into Chakrasamvara?

Malcolm wrote:
Despite the fact that Cakrasamvara seems to be one of the main yidams of the Kagyu school, nevertheless, the main tantra they study is Hevajra. You need the wang at minimum to study either scripture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Tulsi Gabbard
Content:
SonamTashi said:
No matter what happens, I think it is safe to assume 8-9 out of 10 Rupublicans are going to vote red. So Trump/Republicans certainly have a chance.

However, the reason the Dems lost in 2016 was because of an uninspired base.

Malcolm wrote:
They didn't lose. They won the popular vote by by four million.

SonamTashi said:
They simply couldn't inspire conviction in their candidate.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they lost on a technicality.


SonamTashi said:
This time around, I don't thing Democrats need to inspire conviction in any specific candidate. Democratic Party voters are appalled by Trump, and they're going to get out and do all they can to vote him out. So 80-90% of Dems are going to vote blue no matter what happens.

Malcolm wrote:
Everyone who is not a racist is appalled by Trump.

SonamTashi said:
For comparison: average approval rating this far into a first term is 56%, so Trump is 17% lower than average. I doubt he survives that.

Malcolm wrote:
I agree. At this point, he has made such a mess, it seems impossible he could pull of an actual win, like Bush in 2004.

SonamTashi said:
The one thing that would lead to a Trump victory would be if fringe groups like QAnon are not as fringe as they appear.

Malcolm wrote:
Trump can only win the next election through election fraud, IMO.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Important Kagyu texts
Content:
Miroku said:
Hi,

I would like to deepend my understanding and so would like to ask which Kagyu and especially Drikung Kagyu texts are important for a study? Are there some sutras which are improtant for Tibetan Buddhism? Which works that have been translated to english from (Drikung) Kagyu masters are important?

Malcolm wrote:
The three basic texts of the Kagyu school are: the Hevajra Tantra, the Uttaratantra, and Gampopa's Ornament of Liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:


smcj said:
If you were to go to an “Introduction to Western Philosophy 101” class and put on the final exam...
——-
Fill in the blank; _______ is the single state of all relative and ultimate phenomena.
——-
...what would be the correct answer?

Malcolm wrote:
There would be no correct answer since the notion of relative and ultimate phenomena are considered utterly different in Western Philosophy. And, the single state of all relative and ultimate phenomena being referred to here is prajñāpāramita.

smcj said:
The question was asked in the context of a western philosophy 101 class.

Malcolm wrote:
AP students only.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Favorite Sutra?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Ārya-aṣṭasāhasrikā-prajñāpāramitā specifically, and all Prajñāpāramita sūtras in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: "From the beginning"
Content:
Jeff H said:
Could someone clarify for me why I find the phrase "from the beginning" so often in Dzogchen? In context it seems to mean that such and such has never not been the case. But the word "beginning" seems to imply a first cause and first event. Instead of "[it] has been pure from the beginning", why does not say, "[it] has always been pure"? What's the real meaning of "beginning" here?

Malcolm wrote:
In some Dzogchen texts, "beginning" refers to putative state prior to the separation of samsara and nirvana. But it is not to be taken too literally. The term ye nas generally forms part of a compound past participle phrase of whatever verb is being used in the sentence. Sometimes it needs to be translated as "primordially," when an adjectival use is indicated.

Some phrases, like ka nas dag pa, for example, are also compound past participle phrases. In general, we can understand such compound past participle phrases as indicating that something is innate. In sutras, one does not find ka nas dag pa, but one does find very frequently gzod ma nas dag pa, which is identical in meaning. This "pure from the beginning" just means "innately pure."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: What is Dzogchen?
Content:
smcj said:
Dzogchen is the single state of all relative and ultimate phenomena.
If you were to go to an “Introduction to Western Philosophy 101” class and put on the final exam...
——-
Fill in the blank; _______ is the single state of all relative and ultimate phenomena.
——-
...what would be the correct answer?

Malcolm wrote:
There would be no correct answer since the notion of relative and ultimate phenomena are considered utterly different in Western Philosophy. And, the single state of all relative and ultimate phenomena being referred to here is prajñāpāramita.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 13th, 2019 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: What are the Undeniables of Dzogchen Practice?
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
What are those facts beyond change of Dzogchen Practice? What are the points that simply cannot be denied, or refuted by anyone?

Malcolm wrote:
Direct perception.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 13th, 2019 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Further, Dzogchen is beyond mind, therefore, it cannot be proven with verbal formulas and it cannot be refuted by them. Dzogchen also cannot be confirmed with words.

Sherab said:
Does this mean
(1) that Dzogchen is beyond cause and effect?

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is the result that arose without a cause.

Sherab said:
(2) that Dzogchen is not a phenomenon (where phenomenon is that which exists only in the relative realm of subject and object)?

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is the single state of all relative and ultimate phenomena.

Sherab said:
(3) that Dzogchen is beyond dependent origination?

Malcolm wrote:
Refer to item two.

Sherab said:
(4) that Dzogchen is not a noumenon (where a noumenon is something that is independent of the a non-dual mind, a mind that does not have a subject-object mode of perception)?

Malcolm wrote:
Refer to item two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 13th, 2019 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Romney
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Dennis Prager on new Senator Romney:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/42100/prager-mitt-romney-fails-again-dennis-prager
When Donald Trump sought the Republican presidential nomination, I was convinced he had no ideology. And I could not identify any convictions. I therefore opposed his nomination. But I vigorously supported his campaign for president and hoped my original assessment was wrong. Lo and behold, Trump turns out to have the most solid conservative convictions of almost any Republican politician since Ronald Reagan — and an almost preternatural amount of courage to put them into practice.

Malcolm wrote:
What this guy did not understand at first, and has now come to embrace, is Donald J. Trump' completely racist convictions, which pose as conservatism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 13th, 2019 at 1:04 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
These texts such as the Yuktisastika, etc., are important supplements to the MMK. They are quite well known and studied in the Indo Tibetan tradition.

Seeker12 said:
Indeed, I was perhaps unclear in my intent - it seems that for those that undertake self-study outside of a formal Buddhist educational support system, the MMK is very well known compared to things like this, and in my opinion the yuktisastika might be a good one for more people to study is all. I feel like it’s generally a bit under-known, but that may just be my perception.

Malcolm wrote:
They are good to study, not only the 60, but also the 70.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 13th, 2019 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
Vaktar said:
In principle, Dzogchen can be introduced by a teacher to a student without relying on any external indication whatsoever, mind-to-mind, as it were.
There's no such notion in Vedanta, as far as I know.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such idea in Dzogchen either. The transmission of the transcendent state of the victors (rgyal ba dgongs rgyud) is not some telepathic communication.

Vaktar said:
To study Vedanta one must study the scriptures. Dzogchen has its abundance of scriptures as well, but they are not absolutely essential to the transmission, or empowerment of Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
They are pretty essential to the understanding of Dzogchen.

Vaktar said:
Dzogchen requires a teacher (much like Vedanta) to facilitate the process. But unlike Vedanta, there is supposed to be a "Eureka" moment, in one's practice, and/or at the moment of introduction from one's teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, yes and no. Some people like ChNN report such instances, but he also clarifies that not everyone has this same kind of experience that he had.

Further, Dzogchen is beyond mind, therefore, it cannot be proven with verbal formulas and it cannot be refuted by them. Dzogchen also cannot be confirmed with words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 13th, 2019 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB
Content:
bhava said:
What are common points and differences in the way mind essence is introduced (how the recognition is further developed) in tibetan buddhism and in advaita vedanta system?

Malcolm wrote:
Advaita and Buddhadharma have nothing in common at all, apart from a shared theory that suffering is a result of afflictions. Their respective solutions to this problem are like the difference between night and day, however.

Vaktar said:
Without Buddhism -- especially without the influence of Nagarjuna and and at least some of the Buddhist logicians, Advaita would never have developed as much as it did. Granted it's just some wierd mold samples in Buddhism's petri dish. But without agar, nothing much grows there. Vedanta is an opportunistic growth in the rich context of Indian Buddhist culture.

So you can't dismiss their commonality out of hand so glibly, without ignoring historical context.

Malcolm wrote:
I pretty well aware of the historical context. Shankara went to great lengths to prophylactically reject the ideas that his POV was derived from Mahāyāna, as anyone who has actually read Shankara will know.

The main claim for Buddhist influence on Shankara comes from the fact that his paramaguru was a guy named Gaudapāda, the fourth chapter of whose Agamaśastra seems to borrow heavily from Madhyamaka and Yogacāra arguments, somewhat indiscriminately, to refute Samkhya and Vaiśesika scholars, and to propose ajativāda. However, given that Shankara does in fact go to great lengths to forestall the criticism of being a crypto-Buddhist, this should perhaps lead us to conclude that he wasn't a crypto-Buddhist,, and that his opponents such as Vijñāna Bhikṣu, Ramanuja, and so on, were all just a bit lazy in their thinking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 13th, 2019 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
smcj said:
The naive are attached to forms;
The mediocre are detached from them.
Those with the highest intelligence understand
The nature of forms, and thus are freed.
I hadn’t heard that before. Nice. Thanks.

Seeker12 said:
https://www.amazon.com/Nagarjunas-Yuktisastika-Candrakirtis-Commentary-Yuktisastikavrrti/dp/0975373420

Very good and very eclipsed it seems by the MMK in terms of being known/studied. IMO. Some of the language/translational choices are, IMO, maybe not entirely ideal, but the gist gets through.

Malcolm wrote:
These texts such as the Yuktisastika, etc., are important supplements to the MMK. They are quite well known and studied in the Indo Tibetan tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 12th, 2019 at 1:53 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
in which sūtra are they precisely defined thus?
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.03.than.html


Wayfarer said:
And aren't we on the slippery slope to nihilism in saying that?

Malcolm wrote:
Not in the slightest.


Wayfarer said:
That nothing is real whatever?

Malcolm wrote:
If you can show me something real, then you can show me something that is not empty. Since there is nothing that is not empty, how could you ever show me anything that is real? It is all just dependent designation.

Wayfarer said:
Yes, I am very familiar with that verse - "there is, monks...", which I take to mean, 'there is an unborn, unconditioned'. I don't take that to mean something which is only real as a matter of definition. Can I 'show it to you'? Well, that's a different question; the Buddha says 'the dharmas of which I speak are deep, profound, difficult to fathom, perceivable only by the wise;' that too I take to be a reference to reals, not to verbal distinctions.

With respect to the 'two extreme views' of eternalism and nihilism, what do you take 'nihilism' to mean?

Malcolm wrote:
Annihilationism iis the claim that something which now exists becomes nothing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 12th, 2019 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
in which sūtra are they precisely defined thus?
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.03.than.html


Wayfarer said:
And aren't we on the slippery slope to nihilism in saying that?

Malcolm wrote:
Not in the slightest.


Wayfarer said:
That nothing is real whatever?

Malcolm wrote:
If you can show me something real, then you can show me something that is not empty. Since there is nothing that is not empty, how could you ever show me anything that is real? It is all just dependent designation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 12th, 2019 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Śākyamuni Buddha is not the original Buddha. There is no original Buddha.

Wayfarer said:
Is there an unborn? An unconditioned? An unmade?

Malcolm wrote:
Ultimately, no.

The unborn, uncompounded, and unmade are precisely defined in the sūtra which addresses them in contrast to the born, the compounded, and the made; that makes the unborn, the uncompounded, and the unmade relative and not ultimate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 12th, 2019 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:


Queequeg said:
The study of history in the Academy is more than just forensics, and you know that.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is just forensics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 12th, 2019 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:



Queequeg said:
This is one of those statements that ignores context and in the end just causes heat and sparks.

Malcolm wrote:
Even if we assume there wasn't any previous Buddhas, it is very clearly stated by Maitreyanatha that the three turnings are actually simultaneous, they happen together. Seeing them as sequential gives rise to many misconceptions, some of which, for example, your man Zhiyi suffered from.

Queequeg said:
LOL. Under your skin?

You misunderstand Zhiyi, so I'm just putting that comment aside.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't, but that is another matter.

Queequeg said:
Wayfarer and Astus are working within a view that supposes linear course of development.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a Dharma view.

Queequeg said:
You're responding with particular teachings about the instantanousness of the teachings. Your response is not actually responding except to implicitly assert that your view is correct and considering Dharma as unconnected to history.

Malcolm wrote:
Dharma is connected to Dharma history.

The putative "history" of the academic study of "Buddhism" is just forensics, and not even very good forensics, at that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 12th, 2019 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:



Wayfarer said:
For sure, and I did acknowledge that 'the Mahāyāna will say that these were all at least implicitly present in the Buddha’s original teaching.' That is part of the genius of the Buddha - so many layers of meaning in the apparently simple teachings of 'the first turning' which could then be interpreted and give rise to whole schools.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no "original teaching of the Buddha." Why? Śākyamuni Buddha is not the original Buddha. There is no original Buddha.

Queequeg said:
This is one of those statements that ignores context and in the end just causes heat and sparks.

Malcolm wrote:
Even if we assume there wasn't any previous Buddhas, it is very clearly stated by Maitreyanatha that the three turnings are actually simultaneous, they happen together. Seeing them as sequential gives rise to many misconceptions, some of which, for example, your man Zhiyi suffered from, as well as many Tibetan commentators, including Longchenpa, Rangjung Dorje, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 12th, 2019 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Astus said:
Most of such "Mahayana ideas" are present in non-Mahayana sources, like Dharmaguptaka, Mahasamghika, and Sarvastivadin teachings.

Wayfarer said:
For sure, and I did acknowledge that 'the Mahāyāna will say that these were all at least implicitly present in the Buddha’s original teaching.' That is part of the genius of the Buddha - so many layers of meaning in the apparently simple teachings of 'the first turning' which could then be interpreted and give rise to whole schools.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no "original teaching of the Buddha." Why? Śākyamuni Buddha is not the original Buddha. There is no original Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Grigoris said:
If expendable merit is not the cause for meeting the Dharma,

Malcolm wrote:
I never said it was not a cause for meeting the Dharma.

To review, merit is a name for positive actions.

There are two kinds of positive actions: contaminated and uncontaminated.

Contaminated merit is exhausted as soon as its ripens, therefore, it cannot be accumulated, per se.  It's like cash under your bed. Once you've spent it, its gone.

Uncontaminated merit is inexhaustible, in that it continues to ripen as positive results. Hence, it can be accumulated. It's like cash in an interest bearing account, it continues to produce value and increase on its own, even though it is being stored away.

Uncontaminated merit comes about from dedicating one's virtuous actions for the benefit of sentient beings, while simultaneously being cognizant there are are no sentient beings to whom merit is being dedicated, there is no merit to dedicate, and no one dedicating such merit.

Grigoris said:
This (although very clear and informative) does not answer to the question, nor do away with the logic flaw.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no logic flaw.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:



Astus said:
Presenting past events with an ideological bias is certainly a more common approach, especially when it comes to nationalism and religion. One of the main goals of history as an academic discipline (similarly to other scientific studies) is to eliminate such distortions as much as possible.

Malcolm wrote:
Academic disciplines introduce their own distortions.


Astus said:
So far it seems that there is no person or group trying to defend traditional views. Or do you know Tibetans (or others) who attempt to refute the academic history of Buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
You need to get out more.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Grigoris said:
If expendable merit is not the cause for meeting the Dharma,

Malcolm wrote:
I never said it was not a cause for meeting the Dharma.

To review, merit is a name for positive actions.

There are two kinds of positive actions: contaminated and uncontaminated.

Contaminated merit is exhausted as soon as its ripens, therefore, it cannot be accumulated, per se.  It's like cash under your bed. Once you've spent it, its gone.

Uncontaminated merit is inexhaustible, in that it continues to ripen as positive results. Hence, it can be accumulated. It's like cash in an interest bearing account, it continues to produce value and increase on its own, even though it is being stored away.

Uncontaminated merit comes about from dedicating one's virtuous actions for the benefit of sentient beings, while simultaneously being cognizant there are are no sentient beings to whom merit is being dedicated, there is no merit to dedicate, and no one dedicating such merit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The question is [not] whether history matters, rather whose history matters. And, Peter points out, history is not science.

Astus said:
...history should not be viewed any different from fiction.

Malcolm wrote:
As it is said, "History is written by the victors."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No. Only the wisdom accumulation leads to awakening, the merit accumulation governs the possession of the major and minor marks.

Grigoris said:
So you can have the major and minor marks without attaining awakening or you can attain awakening without displaying the major and minor marks?

Malcolm wrote:
Both. Also cakravartins possess the signs of major and minor marks of the mahāpuruṣa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Expendable merit does not mean that one will necessarily meet the Dharma, I never asserted that it did. All expendable merit ensures is that one will take rebirth either in the three higher realms or as a powerful being in the three lower realms.

Grigoris said:
If expendable merit is not the cause for meeting the Dharma, then one can never meet the Dharma, since you have to be practicing the Dharma to generate merit that can be accumulated.

And this gives rise to another issue:  If the two accumulations can lead to enlightenment, that means that liberation can have mind as a cause.

Malcolm wrote:
No. Only the wisdom accumulation leads to awakening, the merit accumulation governs the possession of the major and minor marks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
PeterC said:
History is really an exercise in telling stories that make events of the past more readily comprehensible to people in the present. It's a branch of literature. I'm always going to be interested in research on the sources of Dharma texts. However I can't see a situation in which that research is going to change anything about how one practices.

Astus said:
Are people influenced by the various stories of the Buddha, his disciples, and later masters? If yes, then history matters. As for the influence of historical research on practice, it's often found in reform and revivalist movements. Some possible examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C5%8Dnen, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menzan_Zuih%C5%8D, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taixu & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_Shun, http://eng.cheontae.org/info/loader.php?hcode=jongjo/joongchangjo, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agon_Shu, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Thanh_T%E1%BB%AB.

Malcolm wrote:
The question is whether history matters, rather whose history matters. And, Peter points out, history is not science.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 8:43 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
It's simply one perspective amongst others, and I don't assume it's the only possible correct perspective.

Malcolm wrote:
There is an interesting article on pātālas here:

http://www.thlib.org/static/reprints/jiats/03/dls/mayerJIATS_03_2007.zip


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 8:26 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I think you are imagining doctrines where they do not exist, and misconstruing the meaning of what does exist.

Unlike imaginary theistic gods, there are hard limitations on what buddhas and bodhisattvas can and cannot achieve.

Seeker12 said:
On the individual nirmanakaya level, from the perspective of sentient beings, sure.

Nirmanakayas manifest in accordance with the karma of beings, in the perception of beings, and in accord with that karma, there are perceived limitations.

Malcolm wrote:
Just accept it. Buddhas cannot give us liberation. This is a limitation from their own side, not ours. Like it or not, Buddhas have inherent limitations. They are not omnipotent. Buddhas cannot create universes, create sentient beings, etc. They cannot place sentient beings in liberation, or they would have done so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 8:08 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Seeker12 said:
I think you are underestimating the incredibly vast, subtle, etc skillful means of Buddhas and bodhisattvas. There is always an in.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you are imagining doctrines where they do not exist, and misconstruing the meaning of what does exist.

Unlike imaginary theistic gods, there are hard limitations on what buddhas and bodhisattvas can and cannot achieve.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 8:05 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Samantabhadra also states in second chapter of the tantra from which the Powerful Aspiration is from:

Sentient beings who have not gathered accumulations will not meet my Dharma. They will meet it after gathering accumulations for one hundred thousand eons.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Then the only way to gather accumulations for 100,000 aeons would be by not meeting "my Dharma."  Thus Samantabhadra's emanations inspire beings when there is no Dharma until enough accumulations accrue to allow one to meet His Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Huh? You realize that you are taking a speck and imagining it is a world (and please spare me the worlds in a grain of sand business).

I mean, I am glad you like the Aspiration of Great Power, but it is not a sufficient instruction for understanding the meaning of the Great Perfection. It is the last chapter of nineteen chapters, taken from a cycle of four volumes, plus a fifth, all of which I have translated, and time permitting, will someday release. The purpose of this text, principally, is "liberation through hearing," that is one of the six liberations unique to Dzogchen. But liberation through hearing does not mean someone who hears the words of the text wakes up in this life. It means only that a seed has been planted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 7:50 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
one would have to assume that the millions of beings who live in between every crack in every rock would need some kind of intervention by a bodhisattva.

Seeker12 said:
Indeed, I am fairly certain, to say the least, that there is never been and never will be a Buddha that has not realized gratitude for the kindness of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, because without the gift of Dharma, they would never have become Buddhas. On the relative level, we are indeed in need of the kind intervention of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to realize awakening.

Malcolm wrote:
As the Buddha said:

Sins cannot be washed away with water, 
suffering cannot be removed with the hand, 
I cannot give you liberation,
but I can teach you the path.



Seeker12 said:
And indeed, in the Avatamsaka Sutra, there are passages that basically say that as one progresses towards Buddhahood, one basically emanates forms into all congregations or similar.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, why bring up things that are not in dispute.


Seeker12 said:
And indeed, I do believe that as we progress the Bodhisattva Path ourselves, we come to realize that we do, indeed, take responsibility for each and every being, basically. Without fail.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, aspirationally, this is so. It does not mean that we, as bodhisattvas on the path benefit each and every being. We merely wish to, as Śantideva points out while responding to a qualm concerning the perfection of generosity.

Seeker12 said:
So yes, each and every being that lives in each and every crack does indeed need intervention from the awakened ones. And luckily, they do get it.

Malcolm wrote:
It is comforting to believe this. Unfortunately, one can only attain liberation if one is a human being born with the eight freedoms and ten endowments-- this kind of birth is far more rare than seeing stars during the day. As for the rest, of course we hope they gain whatever solace buddhas can bring them, but I am talking about liberation, not temporary respite from the suffering of suffering or the suffering of change (there is no temporary respite from the suffering of the compounded).

Seeker12 said:
Furthermore, I would basically assert that as we progress the path, we come to realize that it's not like we met "Buddhism" and then at some point, we got to meet the Buddha. Instead, we realize that the Buddha has always, actually, been there.

Padmasambhava is always there for all beings. If we do not know that, that is not because it is not so.

Malcolm wrote:
If we do not know it is just that same as if he is not there. Padmsamabhava cannot take away our suffering, cannot remove our sins, and cannot give us liberation. The only way we are going to be liberated is if we hear the Dharma, and then practice the path ourselves. No one will do this for us.

Seeker12 said:
If a blind man does not see the sun, it does not mean the sun is not present. But when the blind mind finds sight, he might realize that the sun was always shining on him.

Malcolm wrote:
If you do not have eyes, you cannot use its light to find your way. Most sentient beings never achieve sight, at least they won't in our lifetime. So we are left with the fact that virtually (99.999) all of the sentient beings we observe will continue in samsara indefinitely, blind to the fact that there are infinite numbers of awakened being out there waiting to teach them a path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 6:53 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
likewise, meeting Dzogchen teachings in this lifetime is a sign that one has met Dzogchen teachings in the past.

Losal Samten said:
Presumably sans a successful recognition otherwise we'd have woken up in a pure buddhaksetra?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. We probably heard something, but never gained a clear idea of what the teaching is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 6:50 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
[My underlining]
Without moving from this fundamental state of alpha-purity,
through the manifestations of spontaneous luminosity and the compassionate
display of wisdom, Kuntuzangpo emanates unceasing
manifestations that are inconceivable in number. This clearly shows
that the emanations we spoke of, the five buddha families and the hundred
different manifestations of buddha, are simply one very small
part of Kuntuzangpo’s activity as buddha. Kuntuzangpo says very
clearly that he manifests in billions of universes as whatever serves the
purpose of benefiting sentient beings. If a particular manifestation
will release beings from their samsaric causes of confusion, then Kuntuzangpo
will arise in that form.
Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, from teachings given in the 1990s, p. 88 of Penetrating Wisdom.

Note he does not say 'release from samsara' but only release from some 'samsaric causes of confusion'.

Malcolm wrote:
Samantabhadra also states in second chapter of the tantra from which the Powerful Aspiration is from:

Sentient beings who have not gathered accumulations will not meet my Dharma. They will meet it after gathering accumulations for one hundred thousand eons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Seeker12 said:
Meeting the dharma conceptually is only part of it. That occurs at a certain point, but that point isn’t the beginning, I’d say.

Malcolm wrote:
The story you tell is an intervention story. It does not hold water, to use your metaphor, as a general example. Why? one would have to assume that the millions of beings who live in between every crack in every rock would need some kind of intervention by a bodhisattva.

Thus, your point is at best, speculative.

When it comes to our real situation, if someone does not meet the Dharma, there is no saying if or when they ever will. This is a hard truth.

Since it is more difficult to attain a human birth 
from the state of an animal than a tortoise
encountering the ring of a wooden yoke in the great ocean,
that [human birth] is the result of a capable human’s practice of Dharma.

-- Nāgārjuna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 6:17 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
Seems I recall that Universal Good, whether one thinks of It as impersonal or the Adi Buddha, is a timeless, universal Presence.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a very big error that can only be found in those who do not understand or only partially understand Dzogchen teachings.

Even Buddha Samantabhadra possessed ignorance in the beginning. The difference between Samantabhadra and ourselves, is that he was never deluded by that ignorance; we on the other hand, were. This is why it is said that Samantabhadra attained Buddhahood without engaging in one iota of virtue, while we wander in samsara without having engaged in an iota of nonvirtue.

Nicholas Weeks said:
The source of all buddhas is Samantabhadra, so it seem quite plausible that any facet of Goodness that springs into our minds originated from an emanation of the First Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
The source of all buddhas, even Buddha Samantabhadra is compassion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Jeff H said:
However, I must admit I still don't get the last point. If taking bodhisattva vows or encountering Dzogchen teachings is a sign of having done it before, what caused it then?

Malcolm wrote:
Causes and conditions.


Jeff H said:
It seems like there must be a cause for ordinary beings to become bodhisattvas and Dzogchenpas.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, it is held that the ultimate cause for the Buddha becoming the present Buddha was that during the dispensation of a previous Śākyamuni gazillion eons ago, when our Buddha was a hell being, he had that thought that the suffering of the other hell-beings should be taken upon himself, so he asked the hell beings if this was possible. This brief moment of altruism is held to be the seed that allowed the Buddha to eventually cease being reborn in hell, and eventually, take birth in higher realms, and so on, meet the Buddhist path, etc.

Jeff H said:
Otherwise what do we make of a bodhisattva's vow to release all beings and a Dzogchenpa's view that all beings are perfected from the beginning?


Malcolm wrote:
These two things are not in contradiction: sentient beings are suffering from afflictions that are not innate, therefore, the situation can be remedied.

Jeff H said:
It makes it sound like there's select group of beings who are capable of liberation and a much larger group that will never be capable of liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
In the end, all beings must practice Dzogchen teachings to attain final buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 5:54 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Seeker12 said:
I'm not going to argue too hard, but the bottom line is that bodhicitta basically acts like water poured into a cracked rock. The water fills the cracks, and any place where this is space for the water to fill, it will fill.

This does not manifest always in manners which are Buddhist in name, although it is Buddhist in essence.

The four noble truths can be taught in ways that do not involve the words 'the four noble truths'. But in essence, it is the same.

For what it's worth, I'm fairly certain that there are various Bodhisattvas or emanations that are politicians, sports figures, actors, etc. At a point, whether or not the 'container' appears to be Buddhist is basically irrelevant.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Correct indeed!

In addition, karma is the mind's will or motive or intent (cetanā).  Mind has no sect wherein motive can only be effective if it was cultivated during the dispensation of our most recent Buddha and the person knew that it was a Buddhist motive.

A mystic opening experience can turn a worldly materialistic person away from worthless values & vices and toward virtue.  That alone is a small step toward Universal Good or Samantabhadra, from whence came the experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty theistic, and also speculative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it does put you in a better position [in samsara] than being a Christian, because unlike a Christian, a rough, impetuous, and unkind Buddhist has created traces to meet the Dharma, which a Christian has not done.

Grigoris said:
You just contradicted yourself again.

You said that "expendable" merit leads one to make a connection with the Dharma and being a Buddhist can be a temporary condition.

That means that a "good" Christian can meet the Dharma and a "bad" Buddhist can sever their link with the Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I did not contradict myself at all.

Expendable merit does not mean that one will necessarily meet the Dharma, I never asserted that it did. All expendable merit ensures is that one will take rebirth either in the three higher realms or as a powerful being in the three lower realms.

As far as Buddhists go, if they do not dedicate their merit properly, it is also part of contaminated, expendable merit. If they dedicate that merit properly it becomes part of the merit accumulation and is never expended or exhausted, and becomes the basis for rebirth in the three higher realms, and specifically, the human realm, and more specifically, human birth with the eighteen freedoms and endowments.

If a good Christian meets the Dharma, this is a sign a) they have met the Dharma in the past and b) that they have abandoned refuge in Jesus and taken refuge in the Buddha, exchanging a wrong path for a right path. If they go on to become a Mahayānist, then they have exchanged a lower path for a higher path. If they then enter secret mantra, they have exchanged a slow path for a quick path. If they enter Dzoghen teachings, they have exchanged a path with effort for a path with no effort.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Jeff H said:
Am I understanding this correctly?
1. One can only meet the Dharma as a human.

Malcolm wrote:
Check, with one qualification: one can only attain liberation through Dharma in a human body.

Jeff H said:
2. One can obtain a human life as a result of exhaustible merit.

Malcolm wrote:
Check

Jeff H said:
3. If a human fails to attain the necessary level of Dharma, they must start over with no accumulated merit.

Malcolm wrote:
They continue with whatever exhaustible merit they possess.


Jeff H said:
4. Having attained the necessary level of Dharma, one is assured of human rebirth with some accumulated merit.

Malcolm wrote:
One is assured of rebirth in the three higher realms, and never need fear birth in lower realms again.


Jeff H said:
5. Humans with some accumulated merit have an advantage, but no guarantee of liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
Check.


Jeff H said:
6. Those who meet Dzogchen have met it before and are guaranteed liberation (provided they don’t renounce it).

Malcolm wrote:
Check.

Jeff H said:
Even if the above is correct, I am still confused by your use of the “past”. If I have met Dzogchen because I encountered it in the past, how did that happen? What is the distinction between meeting Dzogchen in this life because of a past life, and meeting it now for the first time?

Malcolm wrote:
Just as one who has taken the bodhisattva vow in this life is merely retaking it on the basis of having taken it before in some past lifetime, likewise, meeting Dzogchen teachings in this lifetime is a sign that one has met Dzogchen teachings in the past.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 4:21 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
This whole passage shows human beings explicitly teaching human beings the four truths: suffering, it's origin, cessation, and the path.

There is no hint here of your assertion:
For example, you may have a Bodhisattva manifest as a Christian preacher. This preacher may use Christian terminology, but in a sort of indirect way, the net effect may be that seeds of liberation are planted.

Seeker12 said:
I'm not going to argue too hard, but the bottom line is that bodhicitta basically acts like water poured into a cracked rock. The water fills the cracks, and any place where this is space for the water to fill, it will fill.

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhisattvas cannot give the gift of the Dharma to those who have not taken refuge in it. They can benefit beings in other, partial ways, but not in the way that is most beneficial.


Seeker12 said:
This does not manifest always in manners which are Buddhist in name, although it is Buddhist in essence.

Malcolm wrote:
Speculative.

Seeker12 said:
The four noble truths can be taught in ways that do not involve the words 'the four noble truths'. But in essence, it is the same.

Malcolm wrote:
Speculative. How can there be right view in nonbuddhist schools? They do not even know of dependent origination, let alone emptiness.

Seeker12 said:
For what it's worth, I'm fairly certain that there are various Bodhisattvas or emanations that are politicians, sports figures, actors, etc. At a point, whether or not the 'container' appears to be Buddhist is basically irrelevant.

Malcolm wrote:
Speculative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
You can be a rough unkind impetuous person and still attain Buddhahood in the bardo.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The religious imagination of the Mahāyāna is of a completely different order to the earlier schools. Such ideas as the three bodies of the Buddha, the Infinite nature of the Cosmos, and other cardinal points of the Mahāyāna, are not stated explicitly in the earlier texts. That doesn’t mean that they’re fictitious or invented, as the Mahāyāna will say that these were all at least implicitly present in the Buddha’s original teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
I guess you cannot get out of that old Western academic mindset.


Wayfarer said:
But recall that Nāgārjuna was said to have ‘descended to the realm of the Nagas’ at the ‘bottom of the ocean’ to retrieve the Prajñāpāramitā which had been secreted there until such time as the audience was sufficiently mature to receive it. I wouldn’t want to venture an interpretation of what that means, although I’m pretty sure it isn’t to be understood literally.

Malcolm wrote:
It is meant to be taken quite literally.



Wayfarer said:
The other point is that in some of the most ancient Gandhari birch-bark manuscripts, there are indications of some prototypical Mahāyānist ideas. I have an article about that, somewhere, ‘Whose dharma is it anyway’ which I will try and find later.

Malcolm wrote:
This assumes that the text-critical, western academic version of Buddhist history is the correct one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The merit a sentient being creates through engaging in contaminated virtue to be reborn a human being with a chance to meet the Dharma is exhaustible merit. Thus it is not part of the merit accumulation.

You seem to be having trouble making a distinction between exhaustible merit and inexhaustible merit (the merit accumulation).

Grigoris said:
In which case being a Buddhist is a reversible trait and being a rough, impetuous and unkind Buddhist does NOT put you in a better position than a gentle, thoughtful and kind Christian.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it does put you in a better position [in samsara] than being a Christian, because unlike a Christian, a rough, impetuous, and unkind Buddhist has created traces to meet the Dharma, which a Christian has not done.

The state of being a Buddhist is reversible, I never said it wasn't.

This is part of the teachings on impermanence: just because someone has attained a precious human birth with the eighteen freedoms and endowments does not mean that they will maintain this state unless they attain the third level of the path of application, patience. It is only at this point that one can be assured one will no longer take birth in the three lower realms. But even a rough, impetuous, unkind Buddhist has a better chance of attaining that level than any Christian ever will.

Four common foundations are practiced because the Dharma is the greatest boon in the world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Speculative.

Seeker12 said:
The Daśabhūmika Sūtra is very clear on this point, that Bodhisattvas will manifest even in the appearance of demons.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but it does not mean that this bodhisattva can teach "demons" the Dharma.

Seeker12 said:
It's present in the rest of the Avatamsaka Sutra too in places - for example, here's an excerpt from the chapter "Chief in Goodness".

Some become non-Buddhist mendicants,
Some practice alone in the forest;
Some go naked, without any clothes,
Being teachers and leaders of such groups.

Some show various practices of wrong livelihood,
Practicing incorrect principles as supreme;
Some manifest the postures of brahmin ascetics,
Becoming leaders of such groups.

Some expose themselves to the heat of fire and sun,
Some practice cults imitating animal sounds,
Some put on filthy clothing and worship fire:
In order to transform such cultists, they become their teachers.

Some make a show of visiting various shrines of various deities,
Some make a show of entering the water of the Ganges River,
Some eat roots and fruits, all making a show of these practices,
While always contemplating the truth that transcends them.

Some show themselves kneeling or standing on one foot,
Some lie on thorns or in dust and dirt,
Some lie on pounding stones, seeking release,
And become teachers and leaders of such groups.

Of such followers of heretical paths
They observe the minds and understandings, and they do the same things;
The ascetic practices they demonstrate, worldlings cannot bear:
They cause them to be tamed after seeing them.

Sentient beings are deluded and accept false teachings;
Sticking to wrong views, they suffer many pains:
For them are expediently taught the wonderful principles
To cause them to understand the genuine truth.

The four truths may be explained in local magical language,
Or the four truths may be told in skillful esoteric language,
Or the four truths my be spoken in direct human speech,
Or the four truths may be told in the language of divine mystery;
The four truths are explained through analysis of words,
The four truths are explained through aacertainment of principles,
The four truths are explained skillfully refuting others,
The four truths are explained undisturbed by outsiders;
The four truths may be explained in several languages,
Or they may be explained in all languages.
In whatever languages beings understand
The four truths are explained for them, to liberate them,
All the teachings of all Buddhas
Are thus explained exhaustively,
Knowing the realm of language is inconceivable:
This is called the power of concentration of expounding the truth

Malcolm wrote:
This whole passage shows human beings explicitly teaching human beings the four truths: suffering, it's origin, cessation, and the path.

There is no hint here of your assertion:
For example, you may have a Bodhisattva manifest as a Christian preacher. This preacher may use Christian terminology, but in a sort of indirect way, the net effect may be that seeds of liberation are planted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 3:12 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The details of merit accumulation is not something that I invented, it is the teaching of the Buddha.

Grigoris said:
Don't move the goal posts.

I will make it simple for you:  How can somebody accumulate the merit to practice Dharma (theoretically Buddhists practice Dharma) if they are not already a Buddhist that is practicing Dharma and dedicating the merit?

Malcolm wrote:
The merit a sentient being creates through engaging in contaminated virtue to be reborn a human being with a chance to meet the Dharma is exhaustible merit. Thus it is not part of the merit accumulation.

You seem to be having trouble making a distinction between exhaustible merit and inexhaustible merit (the merit accumulation).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:



Seeker12 said:
Similarly, you may have some aspect of the Dharma that manifests in circumstances that are not 'explicitly' Buddhist. For example, you may have a Bodhisattva manifest as a Christian preacher. This preacher may use Christian terminology, but in a sort of indirect way, the net effect may be that seeds of liberation are planted.

Malcolm wrote:
Speculative.

Seeker12 said:
If something leads to liberation it is Dharma, whether or not it's called Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Only vipaśyāna leads to liberation, and that is not something random, it is very precise.

Seeker12 said:
In essence, only the Dharma leads to liberation. Everything else leads to other results.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.

Seeker12 said:
In this sense, you may have something that is called "Christian" or "Scientific" or any number of other things that in fact is connected with awakening.

Malcolm wrote:
Speculative. It also contradicts what the Buddha said in many sūtras, "Outside my Dharma and Vinaya there are no stream entrants, once-returners, never-returners, or arhats."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 2:36 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Merit can only be accumulated if it is dedicated in such a way that the dedication is free from the three spheres: an object of dedication, the act of dedication, and a dedicating subject. All other merit is exhaustible and does not form part of the merit accumulation.

Grigoris said:
What???  So only merit enacted within the constructs of Buddhism counts as accumulated merit?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. All other merit is exhausted as soon as it ripens, for example, as birth in the three higher realms. Only merit dedicated properly is inexhaustible merit. In order to dedicate merit properly, it must be free of the three wheels.

Grigoris said:
According to your illogical theory...

Malcolm wrote:
The details of merit accumulation is not something that I invented, it is the teaching of the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Jeff H said:
I am extremely grateful to you, Malcolm, for helping usher me into Dzogchen. At the same time, I've argued a number of times on DW that without my sutrayana preparations, I don't think I would have been able to accept what you offered.

Malcolm wrote:
Sūtrayāna is part of the Dharma. It has the right view, it just not have the most efficacious means.

Jeff H said:
As a staunch believer in rebirth, I also take this back to all the lives that have preceded this one in which something must have been going on to generate the karma I'm enjoying now. What Dan calls "liberative insight" seems to me to be necessary precondition to discovering buddhadharma.

Malcolm wrote:
In the past, you met the Dharma, specifically you met Dzogchen teachings. This is the cause and condition that allowed you to meet the Dharma again, and specifically, Dzogchen teachings.


Jeff H said:
There is a need for band-aids until one is capable of a cure. Just because someone is not on the final path at this time doesn't mean they aren't heading in that direction.

Malcolm wrote:
All samsaric beings without the Dharma are wandering around in the darkness of the ocean of samsara. They are like the proverbial turtle who rises to the surface (human birth) of the ocean (the three lower realms) every one hundred years. It is exceedingly rare that they surface within the golden yoke (the Dharma) floating on the ocean.

Human beings who do not meet the Dharma in this life have no guarantee that they will attain a human birth in the next. Even if they do meet the Dharma in this life, unless they attain at least the level of patience on the path of application (prayogamarga), there is still no guarantee they will take rebirth as human beings in the next life, and not in one of the three lower realms.

Even if the practice of Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Hindu, etc., virtue does lead to birth in various deva realms, so what? Once that merit is exhausted, such beings will fall immediately into lower realms.

When I see people vigorously defending non-buddhist institutions as beneficial and liberative, I think people need to review the four common foundations a bit more, in particular, the faults of samsara and the eighteen freedoms and endowments, not to mention impermanence and death, as well as karma and its result.

This is separate from ecumenical concerns, which have to do with living in diverse human communities where there are people of differing religious orientations. But this is a Buddhist board, so we needn't be concerned with such niceties here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The problem, Dan, is that it does not root out the problem. It merely puts off the problem to another life. There are all kinds of secular and religious systems that proffer solutions to such existential problems, but they all fail to address the root of the problem in its entirety, with the sole exception of Buddhadharma. Thus, their solutions are merely bandaids that do not really solve anything.

Grigoris said:
So for you a rough, impetuous and unkind Buddhist is in a better position than a gentle, thoughtful and kind Christian?

Malcolm wrote:
Most definitely. The former has met the Dharma, the latter has not. Even worse, the latter has embarked upon a path in which there is no liberation from samsara at all.

Grigoris said:
Is the accumulation of merit a bandaid now?

Malcolm wrote:
Merit can only be accumulated if it is dedicated in such a way that the dedication is free from the three spheres: an object of dedication, the act of dedication, and a dedicating subject. All other merit is exhaustible and does not form part of the merit accumulation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:


Astus said:
It is a historical issue whether Mahayana was taught by Shakyamuni or not.

Malcolm wrote:
That very much depends on what one means by "history." All the history books available to me in Tibetan, for example, assert very strongly Mahāyāna was taught by the Buddha. The only history books that dispute this claim are by western academics, who have no real practical interest in Buddhadharma anyway. For them, it is an intellectual game.

There are also sectarian Theravadins, who have seized the western academic point of view, which is not surprising at all, since Theravada is nearly a wholly reconstructed tradition that owes everything to the Pali Text society and Western colonialism that was given new legs by Protestant scholars searching for an "original Buddhism."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:



Dan74 said:
This is what I call 'a liberative insight'. It is not awakening, but it is in the right direction, IMO, and for you who proudly believes in rebirth, transmigration, etc. this will surely add to better karma and a better rebirth than continuing to grasp firmly at the self and causing suffering to others.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem, Dan, is that it does not root out the problem. It merely puts off the problem to another life. There are all kinds of secular and religious systems that proffer solutions to such existential problems, but they all fail to address the root of the problem in its entirety, with the sole exception of Buddhadharma. Thus, their solutions are merely bandaids that do not really solve anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 11th, 2019 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Dan74 said:
Evidence is in the eye of the beholder, aka confirmation bias. I see plenty of evidence, including from my immediate family. My own father after accepting Jesus experienced a profound transformation, which all around him saw. A difficult man prone to criticising others and anger outbursts, over a relatively short time became a gentle soul and a thoughtful and kind individual.

Malcolm wrote:
Nice, but not liberative. Accepting Jesus into one's life is not going to end rebirth in the samsara, at all, not even a little bit.


Dan74 said:
These radical changes happen because of liberative insights.

Malcolm wrote:
I guess we have different ideas of what "liberative" entails. Becoming a nicer person does not equal liberation. Such a person has not eradicated the very forces that keep them being reborn in samsara over and over again, i.e., the three afflictions. They may be able to suppress them, refrain from acting them out, but without eliminating them from the root, these very afflictions cause actions which result in suffering, if not in the rest of this life, then in future lives, since they have not been utterly eliminated.

Your suggested insight can be likened to giving a patient with a severe infection a weak antibiotic, which causes the acute symptoms of the infection to vanish, but does not eliminate the disease completely, allowing it to reappear when conditions ripen.

Dan74 said:
How we describe them, the conceptual frameworks, vary, but the deep effect on us is the same. You appear to take the prisciptions [sic] a bit too literally - there is only one way. Not sure about complete liberation - may well be that there is only one way, but before the summit, the ground is wider and many paths abound.

Malcolm wrote:
As far as becoming free of samsaric birth is concerned, there is only one way. All other paths are dead ends.

But perhaps you are one of those Zen dudes who does not accept rebirth, transmigration, etc. If this is the case, then I can easily see why you find it hard to differentiate Buddhist insight from the insight of Christianity and so on. I have often opined that if someone does not accept rebirth, they are better off in some other path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Dan74 said:
A genuine insight is one that removes (some) ignorance and delusion. Are you saying that this is impossible outside formal Buddhist practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is such thing as mundane insight, for example, insight into the workings of a bee colony, the psyche of human beings, etc.

But what we are discussing here is liberative insight, which puts an end to birth in samsara. That does [not] exist outside the pale of Budddhadharma.

Dan74 said:
Seems that pesky unconscious got the better of you, Malcolm. Ah well, another thing that you hold not to exist, along the insight outside the Budddhadharma. Never mind, back to the regular broadcast.

Malcolm wrote:
Dan, don't be daft. Typos happen and they are not indications of concession.

As I said, there are mundane insights outside of Buddhadharma. But there is NO liberative insight outside Buddhadharma. And yes, there is no such thing as the "unconscious mind."

The problem with your point of view—that there can be insight equivalent to Buddhist insight—is that there is absolutely no evidence of it, anywhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Thought you would say that, as you can only advocate from the perspective of differentiating Buddhism from every other school, philosophy and tradition. However the perspective I'm trying to draw on, is that of comparative religion and philosophy. Like you, I recognise that Buddhism is the superior vehicle, but unlike you, I don't therefore conclude that all other philosophies are hopelessly deluded or wrong-headed. After all we're dealing here with claims about universal truths.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we are dealing with the question, "What ends rebirth, and what does not." There is no other school, apart from Buddhadharma, that deals with this question adequately, or frankly, even asks the question at all.

Wayfarer said:
To chart these ideas as they are expressed in various cultural milieux is not at all to say they're all simply the same, or all saying the same thing. But it can help frame the subject against a broader background.

Malcolm wrote:
Unlike you, I don't believe in universal truths, since I don't hold that there are ultimate positions that can be held to be true for every religion and philosophy. I think there are common ideas amongst the eternalist religions, but those ideas do not apply to Buddhadharma, since Buddhadharma rejects first causes, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Dan74 said:
A genuine insight is one that removes (some) ignorance and delusion. Are you saying that this is impossible outside formal Buddhist practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is such thing as mundane insight, for example, insight into the workings of a bee colony, the psyche of human beings, etc.

But what we are discussing here is liberative insight, which puts an end to birth in samsara. That does exist outside the pale of Budddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 10:47 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The Mahāyāna Aśaiksamarge, path of no more learning, is the 11th bhumi. The realization of emptiness of a first stage bodhisattva is the same as that of a buddha. The difference between bhumis is the presence or absence of fetters and the gradual increase of omniscience. These latter are qualities of cultivation.

Seeker12 said:
When you say cultivation, is it correct that the path of cultivation consists basically of volition that is oriented towards actualizing the dharmakaya, and that volition is essentially always simply oriented in that one direction, but the Bhumis are basically what is actualized, which is the progressive unfoldment of the sort of ‘manifest’ aspect of awakened mind combined with increasingly refined insight into the nature of what is manifest?

So, that volition is different than samsaric volition, which does nothing but shift from ‘dream’ to dream without integrating this activity with the perception of great emptiness? This also concords with the Ariyamagga Sutta in the distinction between the karma of an Arya vs even samsaric ‘good’ karma.

Malcolm wrote:
Bhumis are a measure of qualities, paths are a measure of realization. I don't know how to put it more simply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Right, in lower yānas there is no means to confirm vidyā or dharmatā at all until after one has realized emptiness.

Grigoris said:
Of course it makes perfect sense that only Dzogchenpa can perceive phenomena that only Dzogchenpa conceptualise.

Malcolm wrote:
The eight lower yānas rely on sems. Atiyoga relies on ye shes. There is a gulf between these two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:


Thomas Amundsen said:
This is all hypothetical, of course.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. My approach is to accept them as Buddhavacana because I find Mahāyāna Sūtras, in general, to be well spoken.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: Does Mahayana lose its entire validity...
Content:
Thomas Amundsen said:
In my opinion, it would be kind of interesting if the Buddha never spoke ANY of the Mahayana sutras. If not, I believe that means the historical Buddha wasn't actually as enlightened as later Buddhist masters, which is a silly idea.

Malcolm wrote:
Or it means later Buddhist masters were quite deluded about the Muni’s intent and fabricated texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The key breakdown in Western thought, was the loss of the idea of 'the uncreated'. (This idea is still represented in Buddhism as 'the unconditioned/unborn'. That is *not* to conflate Western theistic ideas of 'the uncreated' with the Buddhist 'unborn' as the two traditions are very different.  But it's that in pre-modern Western philosophy at least the idea of the 'uncreated' was preserved, whereas from late medieval times it has largely become completely forgotten and obscured. Whereas, in Buddhist philosophy, it is sill understood.

Note this passage from the SEP entry on Schopenhauer:
It is a perennial philosophical reflection that if one looks deeply enough into oneself, one will discover not only one’s own essence, but also the essence of the universe. For as one is a part of the universe as is everything else, the basic energies of the universe flow through oneself, as they flow through everything else. For that reason it is thought that one can come into contact with the nature of the universe if one comes into substantial contact with one’s ultimate inner being.
of course, Buddhism doesn't utilise this 'essentialist' terminology, but otherwise, the 'no-nature' of the Universe and the 'no-nature' of the Buddha, signifies a rather similar insight.

Malcolm wrote:
Schopenhauer was deeply influenced by Vedanta. No wonder you like him, he wrote, ""In the whole world there is no study so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Upanishads. It has been the solace of my life, it will be the solace of my death.”

There is no way one can equate the anti-substantialism of Buddhadharma with the idealism of Schopenhauer, or Vedanta. It is just intellectually lazy to think they can be equated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Clarity is a property that only belongs to minds, so yes. The emptiness of rock is insentient, it can be directly perceived  by an ārya, but only inferred by a commoner, such as myself.

Grigoris said:
The rock is only empty when we perceive it as empty.  It does not know that it is empty (since it is not sentient).  In which case how can there be an instance of emptiness that is not associated with clarity.

Malcolm wrote:
I was under the impression that whatever is dependently originated is empty. So if rocks are dependently originated (they are), they are empty regardless of whether someone perceives them to be empty or not.


Grigoris said:
In Dzogchen teachings...

Malcolm wrote:
Right, in lower yānas there is no means to confirm vidyā or dharmatā at all until after one has realized emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Seeker12 said:
That seems to make sense regarding the first Bhumi.

This may be beyond the scope of this forum, but ... I'm not sure if I can frame/express this right but we'll see.

Generally, at the 8th Bhumi, it seems that the Bodhisattva is beyond birth and death, although there is still sort of a 'show' of it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but since they still have knowledge obscurations they are still on the path of cultivation.



Seeker12 said:
In Dzogchen, there are the various types of attainment, for lack of a better word, such as the body of light/rainbow body, and there are teachings that basically say that one will realize Buddhahood in this lifetime, in the intermediate state, etc.

When discussing 'this lifetime', is it necessarily referring to this particular meat-sack?

Malcolm wrote:
If one attains the result of the Great Perfection in this life, this sack of meat directly reverts into its original nature as the light of pristine consciousness.

Seeker12 said:
When it's said that Buddhahood is realized in that life, is it sort of including all of these emanations which are sort of beyond the realm of birth and death?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Seeker12 said:
In other words, might it be that one realizes the rainbow body at the 8th Bhumi and there still is the sort of 'show' of the pure bhumis, but functionally it's sort of 'one life' given that there really isn't death any more, or birth for that matter?

Malcolm wrote:
No one realizes great transference body on the eighth bhumi. That only happens for those on the highest stage of buddhahood, the 13th bhumi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa can be confirmed in a direct perception because it is not only empty, but it is clear.

Grigoris said:
So are you saying that there is an emptiness that can be directly perceived, that does not have clarity as a characteristic?

Malcolm wrote:
Clarity is a property that only belongs to minds, so yes. The emptiness of rock is insentient, it can be directly perceived  by an ārya, but only inferred by a commoner, such as myself.



Grigoris said:
Yes, an ordinary person can confirm vidyā in a direct perception. An ordinary person cannot confirm emptiness in a direct perception, they can only infer emptiness.
Are you now saying that "correct knowledge" (vidya) and an insight into emptiness are somehow seperate?

Malcolm wrote:
Ordinary people can have a direct perception of vidyā, but not emptiness. In Dzogchen teachings, the realization of emptiness comes about only after vidyā has been confirmed in a direct perception and then cultivated as a path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:



Seeker12 said:
Thanks. I could have sworn that the Mahayana Paths are sometimes described as being the Path of Seeing = 1st Bhumi, the Path of Meditation = 2-7, and the Path of No-More-Learning being 8-10, though maybe I was thinking of the pure vs impure Bhumis.

Thank you for the clarifications, I'll have to store that away for the moment.

Malcolm wrote:
Path of seeing is the first moment of the first bhumi, the rest of the first bhumi is the path of cultivation.

Path of no more training is the eleventh bhumi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 10th, 2019 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The stages measure qualities, paths measure realization. In Vajrayāna, each tradition has a very detailed outline of the experiences one will have on that path.

(and)

Yes, an ordinary person can confirm vidyā in a direct perception. An ordinary person cannot confirm emptiness in a direct perception, they can only infer emptiness. It is the fact that ordinary persons can conform vidyā in direct perception that makes Dzogchen the highest path, bar none.

Seeker12 said:
I combined two posts into one for the sake of ease, just for clarity.

Regarding the first, is that to say that, for example, the realization of a second Bhumi Bodhisattva is the same as that of a 7th Bhumi Bodhisattva, but not of an 8th Bhumi Bodhisattva, given that these are different paths (that is, the paths of meditation and no-more-learning)?

Malcolm wrote:
The Mahāyāna Aśaiksamarge, path of no more learning, is the 11th bhumi. The realization of emptiness of a first stage bodhisattva is the same as that of a buddha. The difference between bhumis is the presence or absence of fetters and the gradual increase of omniscience. These latter are qualities of cultivation, not realizations per se.

Seeker12 said:
Regarding the second, if vidyā is not a direct perception of śūnyatā then what is it? For clarification, vidyā here would be equated with rigpa, correct? I didn't realize that there was a distinction.

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa can be confirmed in a direct perception because it is not only empty, but it is clear. It's clarity allows it be identified as one's dharmatā in direct perception. There is both a trekcö approach to this and a thögal approach to this. However, if someone does not have a proper inferential understanding of emptiness, one can really go down a wrong road in terms of grasping and reification.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 9th, 2019 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: The Nature of Mystical Experience
Content:
Dan74 said:
Of course it is. But what about you? What do you do to cloth your answer in armour?

Malcolm wrote:
Dan, you answered with a meaningless fluff. This leads me to believe that you were just typing reactively, without really thinking about the words you were typing.

If you want to define what you mean by "genuine insight," great. If not, I am not interested in what you have to say, at all, on any level, since thus far your responses lack sincerity.


