﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 15th, 2017 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka is charged with making sure it all makes sense.

Astus said:
How so? Madhyamaka is a complete teaching as it is, so are others as well. Even in a several vehicles setting, as in Tibetan Buddhism, Madhyamaka is used separately, not as a correction. So, I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka is not an independent vehicle, not even in the nine yāna setting. Madhyamaka is a division in the Bodhisattva vehicle, like Yogacāra. Madhyamaka is strictly a critical school, and does not offer basis, path, and result that is in anyway distinct from Yogacāra.

The role of Madhyamaka is to make sure that Buddhist assertions remain in line with the Buddha's teaching of emptiness and dependent origination — that's all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 15th, 2017 at 10:40 AM
Title: Re: The Resistance goes live-fire... Really?
Content:


boda said:
She makes liberals sound worse than ISIS. Is there any truth to this?

Malcolm wrote:
Zero. It's Anne Coulter after all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 15th, 2017 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Pudgalavada
Content:
Wayfarer said:
But I don't take it to mean there are no persons, as many seem to do.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no ultimate person; a person is a convention. But no ultimate person may be found either in the aggregates or apart from the aggregates. A person is a convention designated on the basis of the aggregates, but apart from that kind of person, there is no other kind of person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Eight Trigrams
Content:
DGA said:
I'm referring to these guys, familiar to those who have surveyed the I Ching:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua

What role do these have in Tibetan culture and in Vajrayana in particular?  I have seen them turn up in amulets and things; do they have a function elsewhere?  Are they arranged differently from the canonical Chinese treatments?

thanks


Malcolm wrote:
They are a part of Nag rtsi or 'byung rtsi. There are various rites related to them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 7:22 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
Arnoud said:
Cool. I might have missed it but who will offer the lung?

Malcolm wrote:
Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 7:19 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:


Marc said:
Hi Malcolm
17th is a Saturday...
Will it be Saturday 17th or Sunday 18th ? Will it be streamed ?
Thx

Malcolm wrote:
It will be streamed, and it looks like the 18th, my bad.

DGA said:
Now I'm confused.  I read on another forum that it was rescheduled for September.

either way I'm looking forward to it

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, my double bad. The lung will be given in sept on Sunday the 17th


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Final details are being worked out. It will happen in the boston area, at this point on Sunday the 17th.

Marc said:
Hi Malcolm
17th is a Saturday...
Will it be Saturday 17th or Sunday 18th ? Will it be streamed ?
Thx

Malcolm wrote:
It will be streamed, and it looks like the 18th, my bad.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It enforces rationality with respect to conventional truth through the negation of essences.

Astus said:
That is a very good point.

On the other hand, every Buddhist tradition seems to attempt to build a rational system, beginning with Abhidharma. And compared to others, Madhyamaka does not build much, but rather relies on what others have already set up.

Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka is charged with making sure it all makes sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Astus said:
Madhyamaka is not just a simple refutation of entities, as you seem to think.
What more is there to it?

Malcolm wrote:
It enforces rationality with respect to conventional truth through the negation of essences.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 14th, 2017 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Astus said:
I'm not sure if this is the right example for "causes are neither the same as nor different than their effects, taking care of both the identity and difference issues with one stone, and avoiding the issue of temporal simultaneity and discontinuity". Rather, as it says in the commentary, the idea of something becoming another thing is mistaken, because there is no thing in the first place.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it clearly states that milk does not become butter, but there can be no butter in absence of milk: enforcing two things, homogeneity of causes and effects (i.e., butter will not come from water) and avoiding the identity issue I mentioned above.

Madhyamaka is not just a simple refutation of entities, as you seem to think.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
all that remains is the idea that I owe you some money.

Astus said:
What holds the idea of a karmic debt then?
With the example of milk and butter.
Could you please be more specific about the location of that section?
Yes, like a debt collector calling in a note.
What/Who is karma's debt collector?


Malcolm wrote:
Astus, don't be silly, if you consider karma a convention, it does not really matter which convention you choose to use as long as it is rational, and functions conventionally. If we call karma a debt, it is just fine.

MIlk and curd location is MMK 13:6

The only rational way to understand this section is to understand that causes and their effects are neither the same nor are they different. It is more fully explained by Buddhapalita than Candrakīrti.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Astus said:
"Sometimes, a long period of time elapses after the action has ceased, but no matter—know that its fully ripened result will most certainly arise, and there is absolutely nothing contradictory about its doing so."
(Mikyo Dorje, in The Moon of Wisdom, p 111)


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, like a debt collector calling in a note.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, like a debt.

Astus said:
The problem with the position mentioned in the MMK and by others is the idea that there needs to be a connection between action and fruit, as it's based on a substantialist approach, something that Madhyamaka does not need to posit. A debt is something that stays around until it is repaid, so it is conceived as an enduring entity.

Malcolm wrote:
A debt is merely a convention. If I borrow money from you, spend it on food, and then eat it, the capital is gone and all that remains is the idea that I owe you some money. There is no money left nor food, just a piece of paper scribbled with IOU. When I die, the paper is no good.

Astus said:
He also proposes a solution: causes are neither the same as nor different than their effects, taking care of both the identity and difference issues with one stone, and avoiding the issue of temporal simultaneity and discontinuity.
Where is that proposed by him?

Malcolm wrote:
With the example of milk and butter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:


Sherab said:
To truly resolve the issue of Islamic terrorism, the cause has to be addressed.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not even come close to the cause of terrorist acts committed by disgruntled Muslims. You keep insisting it comes from a book, which is a major error.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: lung ta
Content:
MiphamFan said:
What about Nubchen's serkyem?


Malcolm wrote:
If one is doing sang, then do sang first. If not, well, just go ahead with the serkyem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Astus said:
Then if it's asked how can there still be cause and effect, the answer is that it's a mere nominal appearance, an illusion, just like with everything else.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, like a debt.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
I can't see how that helps your point it only appears to hurt it.

Astus said:
Candrakirti lists four different ways others tried to solve the problem of connecting a ceased cause with a later arising effect.

Malcolm wrote:
He also proposes a solution: causes are neither the same as nor different than their effects, taking care of both the identity and difference issues with one stone, and avoiding the issue of temporal simultaneity and discontinuity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Astus said:
Since the mental organ is not physical, how is it influenced by fetal development in any way?
I guess you refuse to answer the question, since you cannot.
The question seems to be based on the assumption that the mind is produced by the body, so it should be influenced/defined by fetal development. But if it is not based on the body, then the question makes no sense.

Malcolm wrote:
I did not make this claim. Manas is a consciousness that exists in the past, in the sense that its objects are second order perceptions, not direct perceptions.

One assumes a fetus has five skandhas. So, what kind of a consciousness does a fetus experience in absence of sense inputs prior to the formation of the six sense organs and contact? You are basically advocating for a Cartesian substance dualism, Astus. It is a very problematical view, apart from your dogmatic and unreasonable rejection of ālayavijñāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Astus said:
It may be established as a fact that all the commentaries imply verses Mmk 17.13-20 to be spoken by an opponent and this was the interpretation, which became important for the ensuing textual tradition."[/i]

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a fact that all the commentaries make such an implication. I have already provided you with the counterfactual that negates such a claim.

At best, you might object that this section of MMK is open to interpretation since we clearly have some traditional scholars who think it is part of the opponents view, and other scholars who think it is a view accepted as reasonable by Nāgārjuna. I happen to think the latter are correct. You disagree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 13th, 2017 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
Why take the time and energy justifying the best interpretation from Abhidharma if he's just going to go ahead and reject it in 17.21?

Malcolm wrote:
I already addressed this point: Nāgārjuna runs through the various theories current during his day, rejecting them one by one, until he arrives at the one actually taught by the Buddha in the sūtras, i.e., that karma is like a debt, or a bond to put this in modern parlance, that does not expire until it reaches maturity. Among all these, Nāgārjuna accepts that latter is reasonable. He then goes on to deconstruct karma from an ultimate point of view, having already settled on the best conventional theory available to him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:


AlexanderS said:
Its a much less sadistic form of terror though than inflicting harm on others.

Malcolm wrote:
It is nevertheless a deluded act, just like strapping on a vest and pushing the button.

AlexanderS said:
Deluded act on what level?

Malcolm wrote:
Every level. Suicide is suicide.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:
Sherab said:
You talked as if I deny the role of US foreign policies.  I did not.

By your argument, we should expect Tibetans to be terrorizing cities in China with suicide bombing and other acts of terror.

Malcolm wrote:
Self immolation is an act of terror.

AlexanderS said:
Its a much less sadistic form of terror though than inflicting harm on others.

Malcolm wrote:
It is nevertheless a deluded act, just like strapping on a vest and pushing the button.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: lung ta
Content:
pemachophel said:
A quick BTW: When doing both sang and serkyem, sang should always come before serkyem.

Lobsang Chojor said:
Sorry to go off topic. Is there a reason for doing sang before serkyem?


Malcolm wrote:
Purification ( bsangs ) in this case should come before the offering of the beer in a golden cup ( gser skyems ). Skyems is the honorific for chang. We must purify ourselves before the gods will accept our offering. This is likely based on the ancient nomadic Tibetan custom of having visitors to one's camp pass through juniper smoke (to prevent communicable diseases) before they are offered repast.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is not an eternalist view. The avipranashas do not survive death. They are therefore not permanent. They "imperishable" only in the sense that while one is alive that "debt" remains current.

Astus said:
There is actually one such unperishable dharma that carries over karma to the next life.

"At the moment of rebirth there occurs a single [unperishing] 
with respect to all actions of the same sphere, both dissimilar and similar."
(MMK 17.17, tr Siderits)

Malcolm wrote:
And it is destroyed once one has taken rebirth.


Astus said:
And, if as you say, the Vaibhasika idea is something Nagarjuna agrees with, why then follow it up with a refutation of those ideas and replacing the unperishing dharma with showing that action is unperishing because it has not arisen in the first place?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a Vaibhasika idea, it is an Ariya-Sammittya idea. Walleser, in his book on Nāgārjuna, notes Nāgārjuna's preference for this idea points to the very real likelihood that he was in fact an Ariya-Sammitya monk (the monastic order dominant in Andra Pradesha).


Astus said:
"Why is an action not arisen? Because it is without intrinsic nature.
And since it is unarisen, it does not perish."
(MMK 17.21)

Malcolm wrote:
You really seem to not understand the point Nāgārjuna is making. He is saying that among all these Hinayāna views, the Sammitya one is reasonable. The others are not. I suggest you expand your reading. Just because some traditional scholars have not understood the point Nāgārjuna was making, does not mean that they all have failed to see the point. Some, like Khenpo Shenga grasped the point perfectly and comment on the passage in question correctly.


Astus said:
Because in a fetus there is no differentiation of sense perception and there can be no consciousness according to you because even the mental organ requires a mental object, otherwise it does not exist. Since a fetus prior to the six sense organ stage and contact stage (19 weeks) has no sense organs and cannot perceive anything, is it merely a lump of flesh or is it sentient?
Since the mental organ is not physical, how is it influenced by fetal development in any way?


Malcolm wrote:
I guess you refuse to answer the question, since you cannot.




Astus said:
The object of the mental consciousness are mental phenomena, i.e. thoughts. How is that related to fetal status?

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

What thoughts do fetuses have prior to six sense organs and contact?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 7:45 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
He states that he accepts it provisionally.

Astus said:
May interpret it so if you read the opponent's position as if it were Nagarjuna's.

Malcolm wrote:
Absolutely not. The idea that karmic actions are like a debt is absolutely Nāgārjuna's own position.


Astus said:
Furthermore, Nagarjuna accepting such an eternalist view seems more contradictory than Tsongkhapa's idea of disintegratedness (zhig pa).


Malcolm wrote:
It is not an eternalist view. The avipranashas do not survive death. They are therefore not permanent. They "imperishable" only in the sense that while one is alive that "debt" remains current.

Astus said:
So the fetus is just an inert lump of matter until stage of six sense organs? Then how does it become conscious at all?
Consciousness is not the product of physical development, so why would being a fetus matter?

Malcolm wrote:
Because in a fetus there is no differentiation of sense perception and there can be no consciousness according to you because even the mental organ requires a mental object, otherwise it does not exist. Since a fetus prior to the six sense organ stage and contact stage (19 weeks) has no sense organs and cannot perceive anything, is it merely a lump of flesh or is it sentient? If it is sentient you have removed your objection to the ālayavijñāna, it is not sentient you cannot account for life at all.


Astus said:
Evidence of this unsubstantiated claim?
Evidence of what part? That the alayavijnana is momentary, or that no being can be aware of alayavijnana?

Malcolm wrote:
The latter.

Astus said:
So what is the object of the manas in the womb? If it has none, you have again removed your own objection to ālayavijñāna. If it has one, what is it?
Do you mean the seventh consciousness by manas?

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

No, I mean the sixth consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 6:57 PM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Self immolation is an act of terror.

tingdzin said:
Hogwash and horse manure.


Malcolm wrote:
The Chinese find Tibetan self-immolations terrifying indeed. All acts of terror are grounded in the rage and despair that results from oppression. We Buddhists are nangpas, so we direct that violence inward,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 6:53 PM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:
The Cicada said:
I have no problem with the cultural practices of people immigrating to the West from Muslim countries, but only with the doctrines of the Islamic religion, including the Koran itself.

Malcolm wrote:
Hahaha, if you have problems with Islam, you should have the same problem with its mother and father, Judaism and Christianity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 9:06 AM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
I was referring to the Iraq war, and the racheting up of hostilities against Iran.
Not to mention the open violence being inflicted upon Muslims in many Christians countries.

Sherab said:
You talked as if I deny the role of US foreign policies.  I did not.

By your argument, we should expect Tibetans to be terrorizing cities in China with suicide bombing and other acts of terror.

Malcolm wrote:
Self immolation is an act of terror.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:
conebeckham said:
Indeed...though I wonder how much of our aggression is driven by fundamentalist ideology, and how much fundamentalist ideology is a cover story for materialist greed and thirst for power.  Both seem to be stemming from an authoritarian impulse.

The Cicada said:
In the case of the Christian evangelicals? All of it. People who assume that no one takes ideology seriously and that everyone simply looks after their own selfish interests while viewing all other concerns as subsidiary to that are projecting their own attitudes onto the world.

Malcolm wrote:
Christian evangelicals are merely looking out for their own selfish interests.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Can I reject direct introduction?
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Samaya comes with any empowerment. If someone does not want to receive a commitment, they should not attend teachings where commitments are incumbent.

My response is was prompted by a misconception that some people have that they can attend an empowerment or a Dzogchen teaching without making a vajra relationship with that teacher. It is not possible.

Mantrik said:
It is sometimes said that Dzogchen Guruyoga satisfies all samayas. I recall reading that HHDL thinks so and practices accordingly. Do all Vajrayana masters accept that or is it more a case that all Dzogchen masters accept that?

TaTa said:
Well i have heard from close people that HHDL does very extensive comminmets that he does even when traveling.
Not that i disagree with the dzogchen principle


Malcolm wrote:
he is a lineage holder, it's different for them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
in the same way that debt, though not tangible, doesn't vanish until it is either paid off or forgiven.

Astus said:
That is the example given in 17.14, My question is, what is your reason to say that it is proposed there as a theory acceptable by Nagarjuna?

Malcolm wrote:
He states that he accepts it provisionally.




Astus said:
How could there be a consciousness without anything that it is conscious of?

Malcolm wrote:
So the fetus is just an inert lump of matter until stage of six sense organs? Then how does it become conscious at all?



Astus said:
No, because the problems are that it is claimed to be a consciousness that no being can ever be aware of, and that it is proposed to solve the problem of continuity when actually it is itself only momentary.

Malcolm wrote:
Evidence of this unsubstantiated claim?




Astus said:
The set of manovijnana-dharma-dharmadhatu is not material to require a physical organ.

Malcolm wrote:
So what is the object of the manas in the womb? If it has none, you have again removed your own objection to ālayavijñāna. If it has one, what is it?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The ālayavijñāna is called the appropriating consciousness with respect to its role in rebirth. It is synonymous with citta.

Astus said:
How does that answer the problems with it?


Malcolm wrote:
What is the object of consciousness during gestation prior to the appearance of the six sense organs?

If you answer it has none, then you have also removed your own objection to ālayavijñāna. If you answer that it has one, then what is the object and what is the sense organ?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The ālayavijñāna is called the appropriating consciousness with respect to its role in rebirth. It is synonymous with citta.

Astus said:
How does that answer the problems with it?
Either there are slight errors in the translations, or the authors themselves have erred.
It is very clear that Nāgārjuna finds the concept of karma being like a debt reasonable.
Putting aside then the commentators and the tradition, why do you say it is reasonable to think that Nagarjuna finds it acceptable that there can be such a thing as a non-disappearing dharma?

Malcolm wrote:
Hahah, yes, in the same way that debt, though not tangible, doesn't vanish until it is either paid off or forgiven. It is quite clear in Khenpo Zhenga's annotations, which closely follow Buddhapalita and Candrakirti, that it all the previous positions prior to the Sammitya position that Nagārjuna rejects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:


Astus said:
The commentaries of Kumarajiva, Mabja Jangchub, and Tsongkhapa attribute that part to an opponent, not Nagarjuna's own view or anything he accepts, but rather something that he refutes.

Malcolm wrote:
Either there are slight errors in the translations, or the authors themselves have erred.

It is very clear that Nāgārjuna finds the concept of karma being like a debt reasonable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 12th, 2017 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The ālayavijñāna is nothing other than the vijñāna skandha.

Astus said:
"What is the characteristic of consciousness? Knowing is the characteristic of consciousness."
(Abhidharmasamuccaya, I.1, p 4)

"What is consciousness? It is awareness of an object."
(Pancaskandhaprakarana, in Inner Science of Buddhists Practice, p 239)

This is held true for the six active consciousnesses, not the other two (i.e. they are not actually aware). The role of manas and citta is to maintain the continuity of afflictions when the six active consciousnesses cease. While the extra parts are said to serve as a bridge, it is also maintained that the seeds, just as the storehouse, are momentary. So, if there is no problem with the alayavijnana ceasing every moment, why is it a problem with the six active consciousnesses? And because the alayavijnana is unconscious and momentary, the very theory of it is problematic and redundant.


Malcolm wrote:
The ālayavijñāna is called the appropriating consciousness with respect to its role in rebirth. It is synonymous with citta.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 11th, 2017 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The supposition of everything is purely theoretical. When is the last time you perceived your mental consciousness? Your statements amount to "I did not see it, so it does not exist."

Astus said:
Thoughts are apparent, just as the five other types of objects of consciousness. The alayavijnana, even though it is called a consciousness with innumerable seeds as its objects, there is nobody who can be aware of those seeds, so it is a consciousness without consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
The ālayavijñāna is nothing other than the vijñāna skandha.



Astus said:
The seeds are inferable, and inference is a valid basis of knowledge in Buddhadharma, etc.
The seeds are deductible, but my point is that the argument used for that deduction is not good enough, as the existence of an alayavijnana is self-contradicting.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a perfectly fine argument since the ālayavijñāna is nothing other than the vijñāna skandha, just like the other 7 consciousnesses.



Astus said:
Nāgārjuna accepts the Sammitya theory of the avipranasha, but when is the last time you saw one?
He does not, but rejects both the seed theory and the non-disappearing dharma theory, and gives his interpretation at the end where he talks about empty karma. This is made clear in the commentaries and similarly summed up in Madhyamakavatara 6.39-40.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

Yes, he most certainly does accept this theory of karma, and states quite clearly he likes it the best out of all the Hinayāna options, before moving onto a deconstruction of karma framed in ultimate terms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 11th, 2017 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:


PuerAzaelis said:
Christopher Hitchins

Malcolm wrote:
Not someone notable for depth, nuance, and critical acumen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 11th, 2017 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
I was responding to the "for now part," which in my estimation is mistaken.

Sherab said:
I wrote: "Yes, the violent form of Christianity is over ... for the time being. "
You said your reply was in response to the "for the time being" part.  If so, you must be referring to non-physical violence which would be highly unusual given the context of the discussion.  Either that or you simply could not admit to making a simple mistake.



Malcolm wrote:
I was referring to the Iraq war, and the racheting up of hostilities against Iran.
Not to mention the open violence being inflicted upon Muslims in many Christians countries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 11th, 2017 at 5:55 PM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:
Sherab said:
Did you even realize that the part of my posting that you truncated did not disagree with what you are saying, except not in so many words as in your "reply" to my post?

Malcolm wrote:
I was responding to the "for now part," which in my estimation is mistaken.

Sherab said:
I wrote: "Yes, the violent form of Christianity is over ... for the time being. "
You said your reply was in response to the "for the time being" part.  If so, you must be referring to non-physical violence which would be highly unusual given the context of the discussion.  Either that or you simply could not admit to making a simple mistake.



Malcolm wrote:
I was referring to the Iraq war, and the racheting up of hostilities against Iran.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 11th, 2017 at 10:02 AM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:
Sherab said:
Did you even realize that the part of my posting that you truncated did not disagree with what you are saying, except not in so many words as in your "reply" to my post?

Malcolm wrote:
I was responding to the "for now part," which in my estimation is mistaken.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 11th, 2017 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna accepts the Sammitya theory of the avipranasha, but when is the last time you saw one?

PuerAzaelis said:
!

Where does he say something like that?


Malcolm wrote:
In the chapter on karma. It is only place in the MMK where he expresses a personal opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 11th, 2017 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Caste system and Hinduism
Content:
Mantrik said:
If karma vipaka determines in the type of rebirth we take, is it better to be born into a high caste or low caste, with regard to the next rebirth?


Malcolm wrote:
High caste of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:


Astus said:
That issue of self-awareness is another matter. Alayavijnana is per definition unknown.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is inferable.

pael said:
Is Alayavijnana anatta? How Alayavijnana is anatta?


Malcolm wrote:
The ālayavijñāna is not a self and does not pertain to a self.

Astus is making an error inso far as the ālayavijñāna is just the vijñāna-skandha, named from the role consciousness plays as a repository of karmic traces. There are in reality not eight different consciousnesses, but rather eight names for consciousness based on its distinct and various functions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:


Astus said:
That issue of self-awareness is another matter. Alayavijnana is per definition unknown.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is inferable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, its role on the path is to undergo transformation through recognizing that the seeds within it that ripen as the appearances of the three worlds are nothing other than appearances to one's mind that arise from the ālaya.

Astus said:
The seeds are unknown and never seen, in other words, latent, even though they're said to be the objects of the storehouse consciousness. The very supposition of such a storehouse is purely theoretical, as it's never perceived by anyone. So, when it's claimed that "it" is transformed, such a transformation doesn't occur to any being.

Malcolm wrote:
The supposition of everything is purely theoretical. When is the last time you perceived your mental consciousness? Your statements amount to "I did not see it, so it does not exist."

The seeds are inferable, and inference is a valid basis of knowledge in Buddhadharma, etc. Nāgārjuna accepts the Sammitya theory of the avipranasha, but when is the last time you saw one?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Can I reject direct introduction?
Content:
pael said:
Is samaya from DI  practice of Guruyoga?


Malcolm wrote:
Samaya comes with any empowerment. If someone does not want to receive a commitment, they should not attend teachings where commitments are incumbent.

My response is was prompted by a misconception that some people have that they can attend an empowerment or a Dzogchen teaching without making a vajra relationship with that teacher. It is not possible.

Mantrik said:
It is sometimes said that Dzogchen Guruyoga satisfies all samayas. I recall reading that HHDL thinks so and practices accordingly. Do all Vajrayana masters accept that or is it more a case that all Dzogchen masters accept that?

Malcolm wrote:
Pretty much every tradition accepts that Guru Yoga is the most important practice in which all samayas can be maintained.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, living as I do in the US, I am more concerned about the venomous form of Christianity that is entrenched in some parts of this country. I am not worried about Islam in the least. Fundamentalist Christians on the other hand...they have wrecked more havoc on the planet these days than all of ISIS put together.

Sherab said:
Yes, the violent form of Christianity is over ... for the time being.

Malcolm wrote:
You do realize that the Bush administration was filled with fundamentalist Christians, including GWB, who are convinced that we are in the end times? You do realize the that the US Gvt.'s.  continued support for Israel is as much a fundamentalist Christian concern as a geopolitical concern? The violent form of Christianity is far from over. You do realize that Eric Prince, the founder of Blackwater, and brother of Betsy Devos, is a radical fundamentalist Christian? And did you not hear Trump directly address the militant fundamentalist Christian base from the White House many times?

Sorry, but White Fundamentalist Christians are the ones behind climate denial, and the main promulgators of white supremacy in the US. They are far more dangerous than all the Muslims in the world put together, and most certainly more dangerous than ISIS and Al Qaeda. So lets just have some rational perspective here that is based on facts rather than hysteria and religious bigotry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Can I reject direct introduction?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
[If someone receives DI, aren't the samayas part of the practice of Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course. People who think otherwise do not understand Dzogchen.

pael said:
Is samaya from DI  practice of Guruyoga?


Malcolm wrote:
Samaya comes with any empowerment. If someone does not want to receive a commitment, they should not attend teachings where commitments are incumbent.

My response is was prompted by a misconception that some people have that they can attend an empowerment or a Dzogchen teaching without making a vajra relationship with that teacher. It is not possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 11:53 AM
Title: Re: Respect for the cultural differences of Western Muslims
Content:
Sherab said:
Without addressing the underlying ideology, there is always the danger that the virulent venomous form of Islam can rear its ugly head at any time, once the conditions are ripe.
.

Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, living as I do in the US, I am more concerned about the venomous form of Christianity that is entrenched in some parts of this country. I am not worried about Islam in the least. Fundamentalist Christians on the other hand...they have wrecked more havoc on the planet these days than all of ISIS put together.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: Can I reject direct introduction?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
[If someone receives DI, aren't the samayas part of the practice of Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Of course. People who think otherwise do not understand Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 10th, 2017 at 10:17 AM
Title: Re: Can I reject direct introduction?
Content:
Boomerang said:
Ibut I don't want samaya.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you should not go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
MMK 17 shows only that there can be no ultimate continuum.

Astus said:
Since it's illusory anyway, why struggle with building a whole system of it? I mean, alayavijnana is not perceptible by anyone, it is admittedly based only on "holy teaching and proper reasoning" (Cheng Weishi Lun, BDK ed, p 83), so it's posited as a mere theoretical workaround, but even if it's better than those proposed before it, if investigated a bit, it suffers from a number of inconsistencies, starting with the problem of being a consciousness nobody is conscious of. Aside from that, alayavijnana has no practical role on the path.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, its role on the path is to undergo transformation through recognizing that the seeds within it that ripen as the appearances of the three worlds are nothing other than appearances to one's mind that arise from the ālaya.

Your objection does not hold at all. According to some kinds of Madhyamaka, no one is conscious of their own consciousness at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is directly connected with the path of liberation. Otherwise there would be no purpose in teaching the ālayavijñāna.

Astus said:
What is the purpose of teaching it? To give a plausible explanation of the continuity of being. But as it is shown in MMK 17, establishing a continuity is not possible. How is it connected in your view?

Malcolm wrote:
MMK 17 shows only that there can be no ultimate continuum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: Trump pulls out of Paris accord
Content:


Kim O'Hara said:
It's interesting but I doubt that it will be a game-changer since electric cars are already well on their way to acceptance.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you understood the point. This electric "battery" is an electrolytic fluid that stores a charge and can be pumped into a car when needed.

That is the game changer. No more six hour recharges, etc.

Kim O'Hara said:
Oh, I understood the point all right. I just didn't - and don't - think it will make an enormous difference because (1) we're going to go to electric cars anyway and (2) the new technology does have some negatives.
You have nailed its (only?) advantage: quicker refuelling. As against that, it requires a network of tankers shuttling fluid around the place, like gas tankers now but moving the fluid both to and from the 'refinery', and a network of 'service stations' fitted with doubled sets of tanks.

Malcolm wrote:
It also means more flexible storage for wind and solar farms. The solid-battery approach is just not effective and is itself an environmental nightmare. This electrolytic fluid is made of water and ethanol. No lithium, colbalt, or other toxic metals which are a toxic waste issue.


Kim O'Hara said:
That's a fairly big cost which would have to be borne, in the end by the consumers. With conventional battery systems, most users (afaik) can charge their cars at home while they sleep, so recharge time is not an issue except for the occasional trip which exceeds battery range. Taxis, delivery trucks, buses, etc, that are on the road for hours every day would get a bigger advantage from the reduced recharge time. We will see what happens.

Malcolm wrote:
It's a gamechanger. It untethers electric cars to outlets, and that is the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 10:52 AM
Title: Re: Trump pulls out of Paris accord
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
Coal really is dead -

Malcolm wrote:
Oil will be soon https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2017/Q2/instantly-rechargeable-battery-could-change-the-future-of-electric-and-hybrid-automobiles.html.


Kim O'Hara said:
It's interesting but I doubt that it will be a game-changer since electric cars are already well on their way to acceptance.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you understood the point. This electric "battery" is an electrolytic fluid that stores a charge and can be pumped into a car when needed.

That is the game changer. No more six hour recharges, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Trump pulls out of Paris accord
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
Coal really is dead -

Malcolm wrote:
Oil will be soon https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2017/Q2/instantly-rechargeable-battery-could-change-the-future-of-electric-and-hybrid-automobiles.html.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Is there anything that isn't a conventional model?

Astus said:
Right. My point is that it is a secondary teaching in the way that it is not directly connected to the path of liberation, it is not a necessary element.


Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is directly connected with the path of liberation. Otherwise there would be no purpose in teaching the ālayavijñāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
According to whom? Even Candrakīrti accepts it.

Astus said:
Provisional, in the sense of being a convenient explanation of karma, a conventional model.

Malcolm wrote:
Is there anything that isn't a conventional model?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: "Near-vana"....?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
it is not an entity separate from the eighth consciousness.

Astus said:
The eighth consciousness is a provisional teaching


Malcolm wrote:
According to whom? Even Candrakīrti accepts it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 9th, 2017 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Islam-bashing from buddhists???
Content:
lostitude said:
Pretty sad how ignorance can fuel baseless hate.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed:
“There is no compulsion where religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 9:32 PM
Title: Re: Melong in Dzogchen
Content:
DGA said:
I've noticed that DC people, including ChNN, wear the melong as a pendant more or less at heart level.

I've read in exactly one source that the melong is worn in a sash at one's navel level on the right flank of the body.

Malcolm wrote:
That kind of melong is a as astrological melong, worn as a talisman of good luck, basically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As I pointed out already, the idea the formless realms are actually formless is a debatable point upon which there is disagreement. According to the the Theravada tradition as well as the Dzogchen tradition, there are no disembodied minds anywhere in the three realms, and with respect to the latter, not even in the bardo.

Astus said:
It is a debatable point that is addressed in the Kathavatthu (VIII.8, XVI.9) and refuted, i.e. the arupaloka cannot contain rupa, i.e. matter.

"You can predicate them truly of the Rupa-sphere, where there yet is matter. But this sphere is not identical with the Arupa-sphere. And if you predicate matter of the Arupa-sphere, you must show that matter agrees with the description you can truly give of the Arupa-sphere as a state of existence, a destiny, etc."
(Kathavatthu, VIII.8, tr Aung & Davids, p 220)

What source do you use regarding the Theravada interpretation?

Malcolm wrote:
Kosha. So apparently there is disagreement between continental Vaibhajyavadins and those in Śrī Lanka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are no minds without bodies, and no bodies without minds. Mind and matter are coterminous.

Astus said:
There is a whole realm for minds without bodies. There are also bodies without mind. Also, if bodies are defined in terms of the experiential perspective, then they refer to the instances of certain sensory occurrences, that is: sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch, and those are not always present.

Malcolm wrote:
As I pointed out already, the idea the formless realms are actually formless is a debatable point upon which there is disagreement. According to the the Theravada tradition as well as the Dzogchen tradition, there are no disembodied minds anywhere in the three realms, and with respect to the latter, not even in the bardo.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
I didn't know that about Theravada. Other schools don't say that though, do they?

Malcolm wrote:
Sarvastivadins hold that "formless" means absolutely without form. However, it is somewhat ridiculous idea to hold as they do that formless realm beings still possess a jivitindriya, a life-force faculty when they have no body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are no minds without bodies, and no bodies without minds. Mind and matter are coterminous.

dzogchungpa said:
Below Dzogchen, aren't formless realm beings considered not to have bodies?  i seem to rememeber you saying something about how the idea that formless realm beings had some kind of body was unique to Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Both Dzogchen and Theravada assert "formless" means very subtle form.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 8th, 2017 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Both — the division between mind and body (nāmarūpa) is formal, not actual.

Astus said:
In what interpretation? Rupa stands for earth, water, fire, and wind - neither of them carries any sentience. .

Malcolm wrote:
There are no minds without bodies, and no bodies without minds. Mind and matter are coterminous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Wayfarer said:
How to make pottery. How to play the piano. How to raise a child. How to ski.

Astus said:
Do those knowledges reside in the mind or the body?

Malcolm wrote:
Both — the division between mind and body (nāmarūpa) is formal, not actual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Would you agree that the naming of it is not the actual point?

Malcolm wrote:
Knowledge and awareness are not the same thing.

Anonymous X said:
They may not be, but putting a name on either one doesn't help to give one the experience of it. By your own admission, you say that there is no common word for Rigpa that Dzogchen translators agree upon. I think at best, we get a concept of what is meant by the word, but that is not the actual experience of it.

Malcolm wrote:
There may be no common agreement on what the word rig pa means among some translators, but the commentarial literature is extremely clear on what the word means— it means "knowledge" in general, and specifically, knowledge of the essence. The reason it is best not to use the term "knowledge"  in Dzogchen translations, is that the term "knowledge" in English attenuates the meaning too narrowly. Rig pa is a knowledge, but it is a very special kind of knowledge. Rig by it self some cases in Dzogchen texts means "knowing," as in the phrase shes zhing rig, i.e. "consciousness and knowing," or one could say, "conscious and aware." But it never means the noun, "awareness." And commonly in its verbal form, rig bya, it means literally, "one should know."

The experiential knowledge indicated in Dzogchen by the term rig pa cannot be discovered independently, it can only be discovered on the basis of a teacher's intimate instruction. Those who disagree simply do not understand rig pa is in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 11:18 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Would you agree that the naming of it is not the actual point?

Malcolm wrote:
Knowledge and awareness are not the same thing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 7:22 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
smcj said:
Awareness is an inadequate, unattested, unjustified rendering for rig pa.
You wouldn't have perchance attended the recently concluded translator's conference in Boulder would you? You could've raised the issue there.

Malcolm wrote:
It was raised with many people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:


Anonymous X said:
Wouldn't you think if ChNN was consulted, he would have gone over the text and suggested some changes? I'm not disputing what Malcolm wrote, just wondering why there is a difference in interpretation when ChNN was helping him out?

Malcolm wrote:
It is really quite simple. This translation, one of the earliest made of a Dzogchen introduction text, was made in 1985, 32 years ago. Both teachers with whom Reynolds consulted were not fluent in English at the time this translation was made. We have made considerable progress in Dzogchen studies since that time. This should not be construed as a criticism of Reynolds, he did his best with limited resources.

The use of "awareness" for rig pa in Dzogchen translations has become a chronic issue, one that causes a great deal of misunderstanding, and one it seems few translators have the courage to face. There are really no good words in English which capture the full semantic range of the term rig pa as it is used in Dzogchen, just as "avocado sauce" does not really capture the meaning of the term "guacamole" (from Nahuatl ahuacamolli, from ahuacatl ‘avocado’ + molli ‘sauce.'). Given this, it is as useful to translate rig pa as "awareness" as it would be to translate rig pa as "guacamole."

Anonymous X said:
I get your point, but ChNN also uses the term awareness.
Is there another more recent translation of this treatise that you can recommend?

Malcolm wrote:
There is Gyurme Dorje's, but it suffers from the same issue. Awareness is an inadequate, unattested, unjustified rendering for rig pa. I am afraid we are stuck with it until enough people have studied enough primary commentaries so the tides shift in a better direction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I get your point, but ChNN also uses the term awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
Not for the term rig pa. He uses the term "awareness" as it should be used, for shes bzhin ( saṃprajāna ), which is the companion of presence ( dran pa, smṛti ) a.k.a mindfulness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 7th, 2017 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:


Anonymous X said:
Wouldn't you think if ChNN was consulted, he would have gone over the text and suggested some changes? I'm not disputing what Malcolm wrote, just wondering why there is a difference in interpretation when ChNN was helping him out?

Malcolm wrote:
It is really quite simple. This translation, one of the earliest made of a Dzogchen introduction text, was made in 1985, 32 years ago. Both teachers with whom Reynolds consulted were not fluent in English at the time this translation was made. We have made considerable progress in Dzogchen studies since that time. This should not be construed as a criticism of Reynolds, he did his best with limited resources.

The use of "awareness" for rig pa in Dzogchen translations has become a chronic issue, one that causes a great deal of misunderstanding, and one it seems few translators have the courage to face. There are really no good words in English which capture the full semantic range of the term rig pa as it is used in Dzogchen, just as "avocado sauce" does not really capture the meaning of the term "guacamole" (from Nahuatl ahuacamolli, from ahuacatl ‘avocado’ + molli ‘sauce.'). Given this, it is as useful to translate rig pa as "awareness" as it would be to translate rig pa as "guacamole."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Hrih or Hrim?
Content:
Grigoris said:
The one your lama gave you is the correct one.

Malcolm wrote:
Unless the Lama has made a mistake of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: The White-Robed, Dreadlocked Community
Content:
Grigoris said:
Yeah, I blame Gampopa actually, although he was a ngakpa too...

Malcolm wrote:
No, he was a fully ordained Kadampa monk, who ordained following the death of his beloved wife. When he was a lay person, one might say he was a ngakpa, but his main occupation was practicing medicine.

Grigoris said:
Was he a Vinaya upholder during his time with Milarepa?


Malcolm wrote:
Absolutely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Read...

Astus said:
I'm asking about your interpretation, your view, what you call "intrinsic awareness". If one takes it to be something other than the aggregates, it is no different from the mistaken view of the self. If it is not different from the aggregates, it cannot be called intrinsic.

Malcolm wrote:
The passage is:
E ma 
da lta'i rig pa dngos med bsal ba 'di/
'di ka lta ba kun gyi yang rtse yin/
Amazing!
This clear, insubstantial knowledge (rig pa)
alone is the absolute pinnacle of all views.
The term "intrinsic" ( rang ) occurs nowhere in the passage.

In case anyone continues to harbor doubt that rig pa should be understood as knowledge, Longchenpa clearly states in the Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle:
The definition of rig pa: the knowledge (rig pa) gained through the guru’s instructions which was formerly unknown (ma rig pa) is rig pa.
BTW, if something is not different from something, that makes it intrinsic. For example, water is intrinsically wet.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 7:10 PM
Title: Re: The White-Robed, Dreadlocked Community
Content:
Grigoris said:
Yeah, I blame Gampopa actually, although he was a ngakpa too...

Malcolm wrote:
No, he was a fully ordained Kadampa monk, who ordained following the death of his beloved wife. When he was a lay person, one might say he was a ngakpa, but his main occupation was practicing medicine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 5:20 PM
Title: Re: Trump pulls out of Paris accord
Content:


The Cicada said:
Whelp, no more excuses for anti-Trump, bourgeois communist types who hate America at this point.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure all the pro-Trump, lumpen fascist types who hate Americans will very welcome in Russia. Adios!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: London Bridge
Content:
The Cicada said:
There was nothing in the Christian religion that mandated slavery...
"[S]laves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" (Ephesians 6:5)
[T]ell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect" (Titus 2:9).

Malcolm wrote:
As for lynching, segregation, and ethnic terrorism:
When the Lord your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you…you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them…. For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods. Then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you. But thus you shall do to them: You shall tear down their altars, and smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire. (Deut. 7:1-5)

Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the Lord your God. (Deut. 20.16-18)

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” (1 Sam 15:2-3)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 6th, 2017 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: London Bridge
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
Please also keep in mind that more attacks in the United States are committed by white racists or fundamentalist Christians than by Muslims, something that the mainstream media and the right-wing choose to ignore.

Queen Elizabeth II said:
No.

https://areomagazine.com/2017/05/28/no-youre-not-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-a-right-wing-extremist-than-an-islamic-terrorist/

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/03/13/trumps-second-travel-ban-once-again-misidentifies-source-domestic-terrorist-threa

It all depend on the era in which one begins the clock, what criteria one uses for "right-wing," and whether or not killings by the police of unarmed civilians ought to be regarded as "extra-judicial" since they are obviously prejudicial in every case since they involve policemen and women prejudging a situation and then taking fatal actions.

Your article includes killings outside the US, a deceptive device, as well as tallies in 9/11. It excludes documented police terrorism in Black and Latin neighborhoods, and so on.

Then of course there is Oklahoma City. Not as imaginative or as devastating as 9/11, but still...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 5th, 2017 at 1:44 PM
Title: Re: Just how omniscient, is "omniscient"?
Content:
ClearblueSky said:
Can a Buddha be wrong? Or more accurately is it written/taught that a Buddha either can/can't be mistaken about something very relative (e.g. the example of nature metaphors that are inaccurate).

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas are free from error.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 5th, 2017 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Females get it from males, usually not the other way around. I.e. bisexual males spread it to females.

Grigoris said:
Substantiate this ridiculous claim.

Mantrik said:
It's getting very off-topic, but I know what youre driving at. The truth is simply that one person gives it to another ,regardless of gender.  I'm more interested in the Gurus who people seem to think can be enlightened beacons of compassion whilst exploiting followers for sex and passing on STD's.  Malcolm's seeming dismissal of any serious consequences does not sit well with me, having seen people destroyed within the (cult which cannot be mentioned) and another die in very relevant circumstances.
Yes, sex is OK between consenting adults, but not when one is a brainwashed victim of the other........gender is irrelevant as the relationship is between exploiter and exploited.

Malcolm wrote:
I know many students of Sogyal. I have never seen any evidence that any of them are "brainwashed." The same applies to students of CTR.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 5th, 2017 at 3:35 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
Why wasn't he charged with a crime for that behavior btw? It seems like some kind of reckless assault or even homicide to me, like drunk driving.

Malcolm wrote:
Osel Tenzin died before such negligence laws about knowingly transmitting HIV were passed. He also apparently believed his penis was so magical it would not transmit the virus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 4th, 2017 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?
Content:


Anonymous X said:
The fetishization of "enlightenment" by "students" is a greater obstacle than unethical conduct of "teachers." The former almost certainly leads to the latter.

Nosta said:
Both are bad, but in the case of Sogyal, if it is true the sexual abuse, then thats even worst than anything else.

Malcolm wrote:
Sogyal's students are all adults. People may not approve of Sogyal's behavior, but on the other hand, it really is no one's business with whom he has sex and who has sex with him as long as it does not amount to rape. After all, Trungpa slept with many, many of his students.

People are very hung up on and neurotic about sex in Western Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 4th, 2017 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Just how omniscient, is "omniscient"?
Content:
ClearblueSky said:
I'm wondering if anyone can shed some additional light on what is meant by a Buddha being "omniscient". Is it an accurate translation, and is there any specificity describing what exactly a Buddha can know? Presumably every possible thing, if the term is accurately translated. And considering the number of times the sentence "I can't know your level of realization because I'm not enlightened" is written on this board, at least some level of literal omniscience seems to be implied.

Looking from early teachings attributed to The Buddha, all the way to recent masters, it is clear that highly revered beings don't truly know everything, in the sense that there are teachings about the world being flat, or large misunderstandings about how disease works, or that no one spoke to whether bacteria are sentient (and for the sake of this conversation, we have to assume these were not skillful lies/omissions).

So, are the teachings about Buddhas being literally omniscient false, or is it used in a different sense?


Malcolm wrote:
The omniscience of buddha is a deep topic. But at base, it means that buddhas have complete comprehension of whatever they direct their attention towards. It does not mean that they know everything all the time. This was a claim made by the Jains for Mahāthera, and rejected by the Buddha directly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 4th, 2017 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Sogyal Rinpoche - sexual abuse against women?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
It's unfortunate that Tendzin contracted and died of HIV. Within Trungpa's domain, there was a lot of promiscuity and alcohol abuse.

Malcolm wrote:
Promiscuity?

How terrible.

Drinking?

Oh my gawd...


This is issue is tired and old. Trungpa was a genius, who cares if he was "enlightened?" Sogyal has been criticized over and over again.

The fetishization of "enlightenment" by "students" is a greater obstacle than unethical conduct of "teachers." The former almost certainly leads to the latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 3rd, 2017 at 11:58 AM
Title: Re: Direct Introduction Always Works
Content:
pael said:
I meant, can lama give DI just by saying 'Hi' or touching you kindly first time you meet him? Without mentioning it was DI? I was wondering was it DI? Tilopa received it by hit from shoe?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 2nd, 2017 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Donald Trump is not fit to be president of the United States.


The Cicada said:
The Russian allegations are just baseless accusations used for political manuevering by Trump's opposition—and to distract from the provable corruption of his former challenger for the presidency, among other things. The mainstream media—who Trump challenged—is now making a big huff that Trump is acting like, of all things, a politician! Suddenly this behavior is a problem from one particular individual.

Malcolm wrote:
"Mr. Putin raised the possibility of attacks on foreign votes by what he portrayed as free-spirited Russian patriots."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/world/europe/vladimir-putin-donald-trump-hacking.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
javadm said:
dears,

do we need lung for 100 syllable mantra of Vajrasattva?


Malcolm wrote:
All mantras require a lung.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment success rate
Content:
Admin_PC said:
.
While, a mind purified of defilements is a common theme - the idea of original purity is not.

Malcolm wrote:
The idea of original purity comes directly from the perfection of wisdom sūtras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
Seeking Wisdom said:
I'm thinking of attending a lung of the Tshig Don Mzod. I have "Buddhahood in this Life" trans. by Malcolm. And I understand that the lung for that text will be offered by webcast. Considering that Longchenpa's text is an expansion/revision of the former, is there any reason, related to practice, why I should attend an in-person lung of the Tshig Don Dzod, or would getting the lung of the text Malcolm translated suffice for practical purposes?

Thank you in advance.

Malcolm wrote:
You should attend the lung of the Tsigdon Dzod, by all means.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
fckw said:
Is the information on the webcast already out? If so, where can I find the details?

Malcolm wrote:
Final details are being worked out. It will happen in the boston area, at this point on Sunday the 17th.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 1st, 2017 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Direct Introduction Always Works
Content:
pael said:
Can DI be received without knowing it?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 30th, 2017 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
boda said:
What about Bernie Sanders and social democracy? Socialism is back in fashion, I hear.

Malcolm wrote:
Neither Capitalism nor Socialism are ecologically-rational socio/political/economic systems.

boda said:
Have you heard of any socio/political/economic theory that could address contemporary challenges? Challenges such as the environment, increasing automation, and population growth? It seems to me that any possible solution would lean towards socialism, and democracy.

Malcolm wrote:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Regarding_Nature.html?id=8xotV05WZtkC


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 1:05 PM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Part of the problem of the Left is that unlike the Right, they have no doctrine at all anymore and so they pale in the face of Power, Might, and Authority. This is the actual problem. Nothing else. The Left has no courage in their convictions anymore because they have benefitted so much from the accumulation of capital characterized by neo-liberalism.

boda said:
What about Bernie Sanders and social democracy? Socialism is back in fashion, I hear.

Malcolm wrote:
Neither Capitalism nor Socialism are ecologically-rational socio/political/economic systems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 11:34 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
tingdzin said:
The left needs to quit being so blinkered and doctrinaire, and above all, must lose the smug attitude of moral superiority to the yahoos in flyover country, or it will cease altogether to be a counterweight to looming fascism.


Malcolm wrote:
Part of the problem of the Left is that unlike the Right, they have no doctrine at all anymore and so they pale in the face of Power, Might, and Authority. This is the actual problem. Nothing else. The Left has no courage in their convictions anymore because they have benefitted so much from the accumulation of capital characterized by neo-liberalism. The right has no convictions any more because they have lost their minds in an orgy of capital accumulation they allow nothing to prevent their participation in.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 6:57 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/donald-trump-is-a-menace-to-the-world-opinion-a-1148471.html


Donald Trump Is a Menace to the World: Opinion - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Donald Trump is not fit to be president of the United States. He does not possess the requisite intellect and does not understand the significance of the office he holds nor the tasks associated with it. He doesn't read. He doesn't bother to peruse important files and intelligence reports and knows little about the issues that he has identified as his priorities. His decisions are capricious and they are delivered in the form of tyrannical decrees.

He is a man free of morals. As has been demonstrated hundreds of times, he is a liar, a racist and a cheat. I feel ashamed to use these words, as sharp and loud as they are. But if they apply to anyone, they apply to Trump. And one of the media's tasks is to continue telling things as they are: Trump has to be removed from the White House. Quickly. He is a danger to the world.

Trump is a miserable politician. He fired the FBI director simply because he could. James Comey had gotten under his skin with his investigation into Trump's confidants. Comey had also refused to swear loyalty and fealty to Trump and to abandon the investigation. He had to go.

Witnessing an American Tragedy

Trump is also a miserable boss. His people invent excuses for him and lie on his behalf because they have to, but then Trump wakes up and posts tweets that contradict what they have said. He doesn't care that his spokesman, his secretary of state and his national security adviser had just denied that the president had handed Russia (of all countries) sensitive intelligence gleaned from Israel (of all countries). Trump tweeted: Yes, yes, I did, because I can. I'm president after all.

Nothing is as it should be in this White House. Everyone working there has been compromised multiple times and now they all despise each other - and everyone except for Trump despises Trump. Because of all that, after just 120 days of the Trump administration, we are witness to an American tragedy for which there are five theoretical solutions.

The first is Trump's resignation, which won't happen. The second is that Republicans in the House and Senate support impeachment, which would be justified by the president's proven obstruction of justice, but won't happen because of the Republicans' thirst for power, which they won't willingly give up. The third possible solution is the invocation of the 25th Amendment, which would require the cabinet to declare Trump unfit to discharge the powers of the presidency. That isn't particularly likely either. Fourth: The Democrats get ready to fight and win back majorities in the House and Senate in midterm elections, which are 18 months away, before they then pursue option two, impeachment. Fifth: the international community wakes up and finds a way to circumvent the White House and free itself of its dependence on the U.S. Unlike the preceding four options, the fifth doesn't directly solve the Trump problem, but it is nevertheless necessary - and possible.

No Goals and No Strategy

Not quite two weeks ago, a number of experts and politicians focused on foreign policy met in Washington at the invitation of the Munich Security Conference. It wasn't difficult to sense the atmosphere of chaos and agony that has descended upon the city.

The U.S. elected a laughing stock to the presidency and has now made itself dependent on a joke of a man. The country is, as David Brooks wrote recently in the New York Times, dependent on a child. The Trump administration has no foreign policy because Trump has consistently promised American withdrawal while invoking America's strength. He has promised both no wars and more wars. He makes decisions according to his mood, with no strategic coherence or tactical logic. Moscow and Beijing are laughing at America. Elsewhere, people are worried.

In the Pacific, warships - American and Chinese - circle each other in close proximity. The conflict with North Korea is escalating. Who can be certain that Donald Trump won't risk nuclear war simply to save his own skin? Efforts to stop climate change are in trouble and many expect the U.S. to withdraw from the Paris Agreement because Trump is wary of legally binding measures. Crises, including those in Syria and Libya, are escalating, but no longer being discussed. And who should they be discussed with? Phone calls and emails to the U.S. State Department go unanswered. Nothing is regulated, nothing is stable and the trans-Atlantic relationship hardly exists anymore. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel and Bundestag Foreign Affairs Committee Chair Norbert Röttgen fly back and forth, but Germany and the U.S. no longer understand each other. Hardly any real communication takes place, there are no joint foreign policy goals and there is no strategy.

In "Game of Thrones," the Mad King was murdered (and the child that later took his place was no better). In real life, an immature boy sits on the throne of the most important country in the world. He could, at any time, issue a catastrophic order that would immediately be carried out. That is why the parents cannot afford to take their eyes off him even for a second. They cannot succumb to exhaustion because he is so taxing. They ultimately have to send him to his room - and return power to the grownups.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
The Cicada said:
Trump is not going to be impeached

Malcolm wrote:
Of course not, he will resign in the face of the criminal prosecution of key members of his campaign. And there won't be riots, since Trump has broken every campaign promise he made, or has proven to be so incompetent, incapable of carrying out those he has no yet broken.

Most.Incompetent.President.Ever.

Most Americans will be glad he is gone. And on the off chance he does last four years, that will be it.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 29th, 2017 at 5:49 AM
Title: Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Your teacher is not your friend. He or she is someone in whom you've placed your trust to guide you in the Dharma.

Arnoud said:
Yes, but Dharma is connected to daily life. So, what if you disagree with their daily life choices or advice on your daily life? Is that guidance in the Dharma or just their opinion which is not related to Dharma?
If a teacher is truly realized, isn't it all Dharma? Or at least it should be, no? I think reconciling those--at times conflicting--views can be difficult.

Malcolm wrote:
One must use one's own wisdom too, when evaluating a teacher. Since they are not your friend, you can be more dispassionate in your analysis. Also, you are not practicing Dharma to please anyone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2017 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Portland bodhisattva
Content:
tingdzin said:
It appears from his name that the man killed defending some Muslim women in Portland from a lunatic was Buddhist. Grateful for any details about him.

Malcolm wrote:
Taliesin Myrrdin Namkai-Meche might have been a Buddhist, or someone whose mother had some Buddhist + new age ideas. His sister is named Vajra Alaya-Maitreya.

A former platoon sergeant, Ricky John Best, who was also killed defending the same two women, apparently had no Buddhist ties.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2017 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: The Teacher-Disciple Relationship
Content:
Dharma Flower said:
How concerned should we be over whether our teacher likes us or not? What if a teacher and a disciple don't like each other as people? Can it still be a beneficial relationship? Can a Dharma relationship transcend personal likes and dislikes? I appreciate your help.

Malcolm wrote:
Your teacher is not your friend. He or she is someone in whom you've placed your trust to guide you in the Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 28th, 2017 at 11:17 AM
Title: Re: Crisis of Faith
Content:
Grigoris said:
Another option is to examine these practices via the prism of the Four Dharma Seals, if they satisfy the requirements, then theoretically they are Dharma and so...

Konchog1 said:
What about the passage in the Chakrasamvara Tantra teaching methods to sneak into harems and sleep with women? I’m not being sarcastic. I want an answer. How is that Buddhist?

Malcolm wrote:
Liberation through contact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2017 at 7:43 AM
Title: Re: Who Benefits Posting on a Buddhist Forum?
Content:
dharmagoat said:
I agree with Ivo on a https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=22134#p388298 that a Buddhist forum like this can be very misleading for newcomers, with its myriad of contradictory and conflicting views and the inevitable confrontations that follow.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism period has a "myriad of contradictory and conflicting views and the inevitable confrontations that follow..." Why would this board be anything other than a reflection of that?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2017 at 7:41 AM
Title: Re: Is suicide OK?
Content:
Queequeg said:
I've always been told that suicide is not a feasible option according to Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
If you are free of afflictions, then you can off yourself with impunity. At least one arhat did so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 27th, 2017 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Jnana as pristine consciousness also in Sanskrit commentaries?
Content:
tingdzin said:
It may also be helpful to remember that "jnana" does not have the same connotations in non-Buddhist literature as in Buddhist, and that the term has certainly undergone some evolution throughout the long history of Indian philosophical speculation.

Malcolm wrote:
In any case, Sapan excoriates people for etymologies of ye shes as ye nas shes pa, but he was an Indiophile.

MiphamFan said:
What's his preferred etymology?

Malcolm wrote:
He claims ye was added merely to distinguish the term jnana from prajna in Tibetan and that other wise it has no meaning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2017 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Jnana as pristine consciousness also in Sanskrit commentaries?
Content:
tingdzin said:
It may also be helpful to remember that "jnana" does not have the same connotations in non-Buddhist literature as in Buddhist, and that the term has certainly undergone some evolution throughout the long history of Indian philosophical speculation.

Malcolm wrote:
In any case, Sapan excoriates people for etymologies of ye shes as ye nas shes pa, but he was an Indiophile.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2017 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: Jnana as pristine consciousness also in Sanskrit commentaries?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
OK, so ye shes really is closer to "pristine consciousness"/"primordial consciousness"/etc rather than "wisdom".

Understanding this point, helped me resolve some doubts. Wisdom in English, especially in historical usage, was often used to translate/mean Latin "prudentia" or Greek "phronesis", both of which indicate decision-making, quite different from ye shes. In the Havamal, purported to be the words of Odin, Odin also says it is better for a man to be "middling wise" in the sense of not being overly learned nor too uneducated. Again this historical use of "wise"/"wisdom" is quite distant from ye shes.

Does this gloss also exist in Sanskrit commentaries for jnana?

Malcolm wrote:
Not as far as I know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2017 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: Melong in Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As far as dzogchen goes, no.

DGA said:
That's helpful, thank you.  One more issue to clarify:

Does the melong serve a purpose in the context of Dzogchen apart from its symbolism, its function as an aide memoire to practice, or as a fashion statement?

Malcolm wrote:
A D.C. Melong is a symbol, mnemonic device, and a tagdrol.

For some it may be a fashion too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 26th, 2017 at 7:05 AM
Title: Re: Melong in Dzogchen
Content:
DGA said:
I wanted to follow up on some other conversations we've had here about our old friend, the melong, in the context of Dzogchen practice.

Are any or all of these claims true regarding the use of the melong in this context?
May hold a ‘data bank’ of esoteric knowledge;
Is aware and responds with autonomous action (consciousness);
Holds/retains energy and resources useful as tools for the shaman;
Can be ‘programmed’ with the shaman’s conscious intention;
Has attributes that can be perceived meditatively or may be ‘gifted’ by the mirror;
Has an inherent network to communicate with other mirrors;
May have the agency of healing when applied to biology and psyche;
May have the agency of protection or force when used for warfare; and
Can act as an instrument of amplification or enrichment.
http://www.generalintention.com/research/2012/7/7/the-shamans-mirror-ancient-animism-tool-of-shamanism.html



Malcolm wrote:
As far as dzogchen goes, no.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 8:35 AM
Title: Re: The Importance of the Body
Content:
boda said:
Perhaps a more straightforward question would be: how often do you visit the gym?

Malcolm wrote:
Irrelevant.

boda said:
I think Mr. Swolenormous may disagree with you, if not outright flip you off.

Staying fit and exercise does improve mental function and reduce stress. That can't only help Buddhist practice.

Malcolm wrote:
It is irrelevant the subject of the conversation I am having, not sure about others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 8:05 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Longde Tantras
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Magnus,
that is problematic but as far as I know these are the only translations of these two Tantras in English...

Malcolm wrote:
In general, you won't find anything very special in the so called "klong sde" tantras since their view and so on is virtually identical with so called "sems sde."

The unique stuff is in the various instructions which take these tantras as their basis.

Fa Dao said:
I dont suppose any of this "unique stuff" has been translated has it?

Malcolm wrote:
working on it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 7:05 AM
Title: Re: The Importance of the Body
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
I've taken teachings from  HHST too. I don't have a strong opinion on Ray, I like him but he's not a particular source of inspiration for me. That said, I still don't really understand  your  sharp criticism of him..

If you're saying that he isn't teaching anything new, then I think you are basically right, but he doesn't claim to.

Malcolm wrote:
JD, I was not objecting to Ray in this case, I was objecting to chung's fanboy exaggeration.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Gotcha.


Malcolm wrote:
Look, people object often and loudly to my fanboy boosting of ChNN (the greatest master of Dzogchen alive today)...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 7:03 AM
Title: Re: The Importance of the Body
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
If you have been around the block, Ray's contribution is not "great;"
I've taken teachings from  HHST too. I don't have a strong opinion on Ray, I like him but he's not a particular source of inspiration for me. That said, I still don't really understand  your  sharp criticism of him..

If you're saying that he isn't teaching anything new, then I think you are basically right, but he doesn't claim to.

Malcolm wrote:
JD, I was not objecting to Ray in this case, I was objecting to chung's fanboy exaggeration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: The Importance of the Body
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Well, Ray  does a lot more than "notice" it, but whatevs.


Malcolm wrote:
The entire practice of Vajrayana is predicated on the body and the experience of being embodied.

Johnny Dangerous said:
He teaches on this in detail. I mean if you have an actual critique of him that's great but, pretending he merely "notices" or only teaches mindfulness of the body etc. is not so.


Malcolm wrote:
That is not what I said. What I said was: "Noticing a central feature of Vajrayāna (the body) that is stressed over and over again in the teachings hardly rates as a "great contribution" in response to chung's "The importance of the body is one of the central themes of Reginald Ray's teaching and I think this is a great contribution on his part."

If you have been around the block, Ray's contribution is not "great;" anyone who teaches anything to do with Vajrayāna must by definition frame these things with reference to the body. For example, in the very first teaching on Vajrayāna I ever received from HHST, he made it very clear that the main difference between Vajrayāna and other forms of Buddhism was our emphasis on methods connected with the body which are wholly absent in sūtra. This is why we have yantra yoga, prāṇāyama, and so on in Vajrayāna.

Then I mentioned that in common Mahāyāna etc., there is mindfulness of the body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path
Content:
Minobu said:
i was referring to the primordial source that all things come from...a Creationist Thing...i believe Dzogchen teaches that as well ...

Malcolm wrote:
Sometimes Dzogchen uses language that seems creationist, but it is intentional and not to be taken literally, but the same is true of the Hevajra Tantra and others. The texts themselves direct us to understand such language is metaphorical and not literal. Again, some people, through a casual reading of these texts, misunderstand everything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: The Importance of the Body
Content:
boda said:
Perhaps a more straightforward question would be: how often do you visit the gym?


Malcolm wrote:
Irrelevant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 25th, 2017 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: The Importance of the Body
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Noticing a central feature of Vajrayāna (the body) that is stressed over and over again in the teachings hardly rates as a "great contribution."

dzogchungpa said:
Well, Ray  does a lot more than "notice" it, but whatevs.


Malcolm wrote:
The entire practice of Vajrayana is predicated on the body and the experience of being embodied.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: The Importance of the Body
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
As far as I can tell, the Vajrayana is all about the body. In other parts of Buddhism, maybe not Zen so much, the body seems to be somewhat neglected, it's true. The importance of the body is one of the central themes of Reginald Ray's teaching and I think this is a great contribution on his part, see e.g. https://www.dharmaocean.org/meditation/somatic-meditation/.

Malcolm wrote:
Noticing a central feature of Vajrayāna (the body) that is stressed over and over again in the teachings hardly rates as a "great contribution."

Secondly, the first foundation of mindfulness is the foundation of mindfulness of the body, so one cannot maintain that paths of renunciation neglect the body either.

The reality is that since the body culture of India and Tibet was only come to us in fragments and dribs and drabs, quite often people overlook the vast literature on physical cultural, health, and illness that exists in these traditions, or because of biomedical prejudice, ignore it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
If we actually look at what he says about dzogchen he uses exactly the same kind of terminology and as Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his translators and dharma heirs.

Malcolm wrote:
Parrots and Magpies also can repeat words. The point is not that Harris does not understand what he was taught (I have no idea if he does or not, don't know the man). The point is that it is easy to seem like we understand something by repeating words we have heard and think we understand.

We see this here on DW all the time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
Like someone above, you assume he was dead on correct about Advaita but totally confused about Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
I think he is confused about both, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 8:56 AM
Title: Re: The truth of Mahayana beyond literal historicity
Content:
smcj said:
You're a Kagyu, right? You might want to run that idea by your lama.
**************************

Grigoris said:
It is not my idea, it is what my lama have taught me.

smcj said:
In the same vein, if I were to do the ritual properly could I give a valid empowerment? (That's a rhetorical question.)

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, providing you had done a least one major yidam retreat and or had permission from your own guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 8:44 AM
Title: Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path
Content:


Minobu said:
I realize that no Buddhist claims a God the Creator ...but a primordial source is a Creationist View.

Malcolm wrote:
The "source of things" is whether or not one recognizes the nature of one's mind. If one does not, that nonrecognition produces all the dharmas of samsara. If one does, that recognition produces all the dharmas of nirvana. But the nature of the mind itself is beyond samsara and nirvana from the beginning. There is no samsara or nirvana outside of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 8:34 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
No, you didn't. The Nirvana Sūtra clearly states that the "self" it is discussing is different than the self of the nonbuddhists. Do you really need me to trot out the passages?

Anonymous X said:
What did I actually quote, then?

Malcolm wrote:
It is impossible to quote the Nirvana Sūtra in defense of a nonbuddhist like atman because the sūtra itself rejects the idea outright.

The Nirvana Sūtra is a very large text. The version translated from Chinese into Tibetan anywhere from 600 folios to a 1000, depending on the canon edition.

The direct translation from Sanskrit is 15--200 folios depending on the canon edition.

Anyway, what the text says concerning tirthikas is:
In order to refute tīrthikas, I explained a self does not exist, a sentient being does not exist, and a person does not exist. The self explained by the tīrthikas is like letters carved by worms. Therefore I said there is self does not exist in all sentient beings.

The Buddha then goes on explain the atman found in the Upanishads that is the size of a thumb or a grain of mustard that exists in the heart does not exist. He explains elsewhere in the text that the self to which he is referring is the buddhadhātu. He also equates the "self" he teaches with a vajra. He also equates it with dharmakāya. He uses the same set of adjectives to describe the self and the dharmakāya throughout the text: permanent, stable, eternal, and peace.

The Buddha in this sūtra identifies himself as the dharmakāya.

Your post also again illustrates the dangers of the casual reading of profound texts.

Typo:
In order to refute tīrthikas, I explained a self does not exist, a sentient being does not exist, and a person does not exist. The self explained by the tīrthikas is like letters carved by worms. Therefore I said a self does not exist in all sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: BumShi in English? Bon Traditional Tibetan Medicine tantras
Content:
mahabuddha said:
Is the Bon Traditional Tibetan Medicine tantras, BumShi, translated in English? Does it still exist in Tibetan? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Yours in the Dharma,
Chimed Dorjee


Malcolm wrote:
It still exists in Tibetan and is 98 percent identical with the rgyud bzhi.

mahabuddha said:
Malcolm,

Do you know of an online resource where the bumshi is in Tibetan? I'd love to practice translating it.

Thanks!


Malcolm wrote:
https://www.tbrc.org/#!rid=W1GS4


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I do not think these sorts of popularizations of the teachings do anything more than confuse people.

Grigoris said:
People are confused anyway, so introducing them to, and sparking interest in, Dzogchen and/or Advaita is not necessarily negative.  A person's karma will influence where they will settle after that.

Anyway, after years of reading threads (like these) and a variety of books, many times I still fail to see the difference between the Advaita and the Shentong view...  So I imagine that for a complete and utter newb...

Malcolm wrote:
gZhan stong does not assert a unified field of consciousness, since it comes from the Yogācāra tradition. This is one very important difference between gzhan stong and Advaita. It asserts, like every other buddhist tradition, that mind streams are unique and distinct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
But I just quoted passages from the Mahaparinirvana sutra stating differently.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you didn't. The Nirvana Sūtra clearly states that the "self" it is discussing is different than the self of the nonbuddhists. Do you really need me to trot out the passages?

Anonymous X said:
What did I actually quote, then?

Malcolm wrote:
It is impossible to quote the Nirvana Sūtra in defense of a nonbuddhist like atman because the sūtra itself rejects the idea outright.

The Nirvana Sūtra is a very large text. The version translated from Chinese into Tibetan anywhere from 600 folios to a 1000, depending on the canon edition.

The direct translation from Sanskrit is 15--200 folios depending on the canon edition.

Anyway, what the text says concerning tirthikas is:
In order to refute tīrthikas, I explained a self does not exist, a sentient being does not exist, and a person does not exist. The self explained by the tīrthikas is like letters carved by worms. Therefore I said there is self does not exist in all sentient beings.

The Buddha then goes on explain the atman found in the Upanishads that is the size of a thumb or a grain of mustard that exists in the heart does not exist. He explains elsewhere in the text that the self to which he is referring is the buddhadhātu. He also equates the "self" he teaches with a vajra. He also equates it with dharmakāya. He uses the same set of adjectives to describe the self and the dharmakāya throughout the text: permanent, stable, eternal, and peace.

The Buddha in this sūtra identifies himself as the dharmakāya.

Your post also again illustrates the dangers of the casual reading of profound texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 24th, 2017 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


Anonymous X said:
These quotes seem to contradict what you just said. There are many more like these in the Tathagathagarbha 'class' of sutras.

Malcolm wrote:
Tathatāgatagarbha is just a name for dharmakāya covered with afflictions. As such, it refers to the nature of the mind, that's all. It's doctrine was formulated as a reaction to the idea that the ultimate nature of sentient beings, beings with consciousness, is a blank emptiness. Hence, these sūtras and their commentary, the Uttaratantra, while acknowledging the essence of the mind is emptiness free from all extremes of proliferation, emphasize that the nature of the mind is an unconditioned clarity, just as for example, fire is not merely heat, but also light, for example, water is not just wet, it is also limpid.

Also, the Nirvana Sūtra and so on explicitly reject the atman of non-buddhists.

M

Anonymous X said:
But I just quoted passages from the Mahaparinirvana sutra stating differently.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you didn't. The Nirvana Sūtra clearly states that the "self" it is discussing is different than the self of the nonbuddhists. Do you really need me to trot out the passages?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
He even goes as far as calling this 'True Self'. Of course, we immediately think of Advaita and it's posit of an atman as true self. This kind of conception is not very different from each other, and the Buddha lived in a time where this kind of teaching must have been prevalent. Buddhist scholars have argued this point of 'positive' essence vehemently, both for and against this kind of thinking. How do you personally interpret this? Is it just semantics that we get lost in and both systems are talking about the 'ineffable' using different terms? What would the difference between Brahman and buddhanature really be?

krodha said:
The term "true self" [satyātman] actually never appears in any of the tathāgatagarbha sūtras. It's presence in select English texts is a translational gloss chosen by a couple authors to fit their own biases.

Further, the Laṅkāvatāra is explicitly clear that the tathāgatagarbha is not to be conflated with the self of the non-buddhists.

The Laṅkā also states:

O Mahāmati, with a view to casting aside the heterodox theory, you must treat the tathāgatagarbha as not self [anātman].

Bhāviveka demonstrates the proper way to view buddhanature:

The statement "The tathāgata pervades" means wisdom pervades all objects of knowledge, but it does not mean abiding in everything like Viśnu. Further, "Tathāgatagarbhin" means emptiness, signlessness and absence of aspiration exist the continuums of all sentient beings, but is not an inner personal agent pervading everyone.

Anonymous X said:
These quotes seem to contradict what you just said. There are many more like these in the Tathagathagarbha 'class' of sutras.

Malcolm wrote:
Tathatāgatagarbha is just a name for dharmakāya covered with afflictions. As such, it refers to the nature of the mind, that's all. It's doctrine was formulated as a reaction to the idea that the ultimate nature of sentient beings, beings with consciousness, is a blank emptiness. Hence, these sūtras and their commentary, the Uttaratantra, while acknowledging the essence of the mind is emptiness free from all extremes of proliferation, emphasize that the nature of the mind is an unconditioned clarity, just as for example, fire is not merely heat, but also light, for example, water is not just wet, it is also limpid.

Also, the Nirvana Sūtra and so on explicitly reject the atman of non-buddhists.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: The truth of Mahayana beyond literal historicity
Content:
smcj said:
Personally I don't consider all that Dharma with a capitol "D".


Malcolm wrote:
Then why the heavy allegiance to gzhan stong? It does not appear in Sūtra at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
No, the point is, to Harris the difference is irrelevant.

Malcolm wrote:
That means there is a problem with his view. The difference is crucial.

michaelb said:
Why? He doesn't go into any kind of detail about it. We can't say his view is wrong because he doesn't say what his view is. He neither explains what he means by advaita nor what he means by dzogchen in any kind of detail. We can't just assume that and to him it is irrelevant because that is not what his book is about.

Malcolm wrote:
He does indeed say what he means by Advaita. He is a student of Poonja-ji, like Andrew Cohen, Ganga-ji, Mooji and so on. Thus, we have a very clear idea of what Advaita means for him.

He also paints a very clear picture of what Dzogchen means for him. This is one of the reasons why I characterized his description of Dzogchen as Vipassana gussied up in Tibetan drag.

He describes his religious career very precisely: He first practiced Burmese-style Vipassana; he then went on to study with Poonja-ji, and then he spent a few years (5) taking teachings from Tulku Urgyen.

His book is entitled, "Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion." In this book he describes his view of religion in general, and Advaita and Dzogchen very thoroghly.

Now, as for myself, I really do not have anything more to offer on the subject of this book, other than that as a "purist," someone who has devoted to the past 25 years of my life to studying and practicing Dzogchen, I do not think these sorts of popularizations of the teachings do anything more than confuse people. People are very influenced by the first book they read on a given subject, and it pains me to think that the first book someone might read on the subject of Dzogchen teachings is Harris's book.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 8:03 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


michaelb said:
No, the point is, to Harris the difference is irrelevant.

Malcolm wrote:
That means there is a problem with his view. The difference is crucial.

michaelb said:
Of course, people here who wish to discredit Harris want to show his knowledge of the nature of mind is incorrect.

Malcolm wrote:
I can't address his experience, only what he says in print.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 10:12 AM
Title: Re: The truth of Mahayana beyond literal historicity
Content:


smcj said:
I know that early 20th century Tibet had a lot going on that wouldn't necessarily have passed muster at Nalanda, but if it was producing enlightened masters who am I to nit-pic about this or that?

Malcolm wrote:
And for you, Sam Harris too passes muster.

smcj said:
If his teacher has realization, and if his teacher gives him the thumbs up, I would, yes.

Since I'm not sure either of those conditions are true, at this time I hold judgement.

Malcolm wrote:
TUR certainly was a realized person. As far as I know, he did not really know Sam Harris very well. Certainly not well enough to say, " Sam Harris understood and realized what I am teaching."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 10:05 AM
Title: Re: The truth of Mahayana beyond literal historicity
Content:


smcj said:
I know that early 20th century Tibet had a lot going on that wouldn't necessarily have passed muster at Nalanda, but if it was producing enlightened masters who am I to nit-pic about this or that?

Malcolm wrote:
And for you, Sam Harris too passes muster.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 10:04 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


smcj said:
So basically he is saying to the "purists" that he doesn't care. As an admitted dilettante myself I personally don't have a problem with that.


Malcolm wrote:
In other words, you too don't care about the Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
I'm sure time passes quickly in Sukhavati...

Malcolm wrote:
Consider that most people born there have to wait five hundred years in that land before they can even hear to see Amitbha, 500 Sukhavati years that is...

dzogchungpa said:
Well, like I always say, I'm going for Abhirati myself but I'm sure there are worse things to do than wait five hundred years in Sukhavati...

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know, it reminds me of the scene in Spinal Tap where Harry Shearer is caught in his pod on stage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Still don't buy it. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true. I just can't see how that would work, you see?
Forget karma. We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook? I mean, ten recitations are something so easy to perform that I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that. The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant. Sounds too good to be true...

Malcolm wrote:
The caveat is that since a single day there is many thousands of human years long...

dzogchungpa said:
I'm sure time passes quickly in Sukhavati...

Malcolm wrote:
Consider that most people born there have to wait five hundred years in that land before they can even hear to see Amitbha, 500 Sukhavati years that is...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Still don't buy it. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true. I just can't see how that would work, you see?
Forget karma. We make ten recitations with the aspiration to be reborn in a pure land and we're off the hook? I mean, ten recitations are something so easy to perform that I wonder why Buddha gave a single teaching other than that. The conditions to attain enlightenment in a Pure Land are so more favourable that such method would render most practices irrelevant. Sounds too good to be true...

Malcolm wrote:
The caveat is that since a single day there is many thousands of human years long...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 23rd, 2017 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: The truth of Mahayana beyond literal historicity
Content:
Grigoris said:
Personally, for me:  If a teaching coincides with the Four Dharma Seals, then it is Dharma, regardless of who wrote it.

smcj said:
You might want to rethink that. For instance I could write something that coincides with the Four Dharma Seals. It wouldn't be Dharma. Dharma is Dharma only if it comes from a realized person. That realized person need not be Sakyamuni.

Malcolm wrote:
So you mean all those hundreds of śastras in the bstan 'gyur, and all the hundreds of thousands of subsequent Tibetan commentaries, etc., were all written by awakened people? No, it is not possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.

pael said:
Do you mean easier than Amitabha chanting of Pure Land Buddhism?
I understood birth in Sukhavati is guaranteed by saying his name ten times.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is a much more direct path than pure land practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


michaelb said:
"What we should recognise is the state of nondual emptiness and cognizance." Rainbow Painting. p.173

Malcolm wrote:
"Cognizance" is how EPK has been translating gsal ba, generally rendered as "clarity."


michaelb said:
"You need to be able to dissolve dualistic mind in nondual awareness, rigpa." Rainbow Painting p.69.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a gloss on what TUR said in Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
That he says both seek an insight into the non-duality of counsciousness doesn't mean that they both seek the same insight.

Malcolm wrote:
He says on pg. 132, very clearly and unequivocally, that they seek the same insight. Moreover, in footnote 9, on pg. 210, he say:

Sam Harris, Waking Up said:
"Purists will insist on important differences among the various schools of Buddhism and the tradition of Advaita Vedanta developed by Shankara (788-820). Although I touch upon some of these distinctions, I do not make much of them. I consider the differences to be generally a matter of emphasis, semantics and (irrelevant) metaphysics — and to esoteric to be of interest to the general reader."

Malcolm wrote:
In other words, when he says that two traditions seek to promote the same insight, he means it literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
Rangjung Yeshe that stick most, it seems, to rigpa = awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but that was years ago.

The first person to use the term awareness for rig pa was Guenther in his earlier translations. John Reynolds used in his works, and still does — this has influenced the Bonpos quite a bit. Jean Luc Achard uses the term capitalized, but agrees it is not an adequate translation.

But the word in fact means "knowledge," and in the context of Dzgchen it means knowledge of your own nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Permanent ... self ...

PuerAzaelis said:
?!

Really?!


Malcolm wrote:
Yup, but you need to make sure understand that this is not taken literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path
Content:
Minobu said:
why can't someone please just explain Buddha nature in terms that is simple.
.


Malcolm wrote:
Permanent, pure, self, blissful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 8:42 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
smcj said:
So how does this thread relate to the "DI Always Works" thread?

Malcolm wrote:
It always works because anyone who receives direct introduction will inevitably become a buddha, sooner, rather than later, including Sam Harris.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
pael said:
Will Ati guruyoga compensate all those?

Malcolm wrote:
According to the boss, 100%.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
many translators like Keith Dowman, Richard Barron...

Malcolm wrote:
BTW, neither Barron nor Dowman translate rig pa as "knowing" or "knowledge."

Barron uses "intrinsic awareness," Dowman uses "pure presence," or something like that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
It's Rangjung Yeshe that sticks to awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
No, these days EPK leaves it untranslated because apart from a few holdouts, everyone agrees "awareness" is not the right word for " rig pa."


The problems with translations of terms is that the field shifts more rapidly than we can reedit earlier work to reflect advances in our knowledge. Like deprecated or legacy code which has a large install base and is hard to upgrade, deprecated translations have a very long half-life, and people resist upgrading their terms. But the reason why deprecated code is deprecated is that it causes errors in computation. Likewise, legacy translations can cause errors in understanding. For example, many times you see texts translating rlung as prāṇa, when in fact rlung is a translation of vāyu. Prāṇa is properly translated into Tibetan as srog, life, and prāṇavāyu is translated as srog 'dzin rlung, lit., "the wind that sustains life." But over and over again we see people using the term prāṇa to refer to the five vāyus. This inaccuracy is a holdover from the introduction of Yoga to the West, from which these terms were first introduced.

Thus, students also have to keep up with the times, and when there is a major shift in how this or that term is understood, they have to shift with it.

When it comes to clarity, however, clarity in Dzogchen is not a cognitive faculty. A commentary on the Blazing Lamp Tantra clarifies perfectly that the clarity discussed in Dzogchen is not the the clarity found in the three realms, but is rather clarity ( gsal ba ) in Dzogchen means zang thal, pellucidity, or 'od gsal ba, luminosity.

Finally, the point is not to make one person right and another person wrong. This is like science. When the facts change, we change accordingly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 7:56 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Are you equating 'mind essence' with 'buddhanature'?

Malcolm wrote:
In general, in Dzogchen and mahāmudra teaching mind essence = sugatagarbha.

A Dzogchen commentary called the Vajra Bridge explains:
The actual realization of one’s mind essence is the meaning of the sugatagarbha (one’s mind essence) arising simultaneously with the transcendent state of buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 8:21 AM
Title: Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
When fabrications stop at least one of the aggregates have to stop since nothing is outside of the aggregates.

Malcolm wrote:
Which one? And who told you there was nothing outside of the aggregates? Certainly not the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 8:17 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
This empty clarity is what Harris refers to as non-dual awareness...

Malcolm wrote:
He is mistaken inso far as he equates this empty clarity with the insight Advaita supposedly provokes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
Either of you read Harris's book?

Malcolm wrote:
How can you say that when I quote actual page numbers and cite actual passages? You might to well to do the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
Some phenomenologists used 'cognisance' to refer to the kind of being-in-the-world in which the figure/ground tension melts away.

Malcolm wrote:
What does this have to do with Dzogchen?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen and Mahāmudra seek to identify the so called mind-essence.

michaelb said:
Please explain the features and characteristics of mind-essence? Is mind-essence in any way cognizant?

Malcolm wrote:
The mind essence is unconditioned, empty clarity. The mind is conditioned. A person who has directly perceived their own mind essence is someone who has rig pa, knowledge.

The mind essence is not cognizant, however, any more than a mirror is cognizant of the reflections on its surface.

For example, to use a metaphor Norbu Rinpoche frequently employs for making people understand clarity, when you look at a vista and swiftly move your head from one side to the other, all of the impressions on your sense organ of the eyes (in this example) are part of your clarity, but one has no awareness or cognizance of any object within that field. If you recognize something in that field and pick it out, that is mind, not clarity.

"Cognizant" (meaning to know of or be aware of something, ) means that one must have something to be cognizant of. It's built into the way the word is used in our language. You never use the verb without "of" being appended to it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?

PuerAzaelis said:
How could it be an experience when cessation is the end of the aggregates? What is left to have any experience?

Malcolm wrote:
Cessation is the end of which aggregates now?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Speeches by Saudi King & President Trump
Content:
Grigoris said:
I ain't talking about heroes, there are rarely heroes in wars, mainly just innocent victims.

Malcolm wrote:
We don't often agree about much, but we definitely agree about that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: Speeches by Saudi King & President Trump
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Aren't Iran, Russia, Assad (and Hezbollah) the ones who are actually fighting al-qaeda/isil/daesh?

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Speeches by Saudi King & President Trump
Content:
Grigoris said:
Behind the smiles and the sword dances lies the truth of the US-Saudi alliance.

Malcolm wrote:
The whole thing is just a proxy war between the US and Russia, in reality. I hold them all responsible. One side is not better than the other. They are all engaged in wickedness of one kind of another. That is just how it is with secular governments.

US --> Saudis --> Yemen <--Iran <-- Russia.

Of course, the Houthis are no https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Houthis:



Anyone who flies a flag that says "Curse the Jews" is a problem, the third red line.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I've always liked the expression of 'suchness' or 'thusness'. How would I go about explaining something that is not knowable as an experience? I don't think we need to explain it, or search for it. It seems you can only point to experience, not to what is not experienced.

Malcolm wrote:
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?

aflatun said:
Malcolm:

In Dzogchen, is it correct to say that buddha nature refers to the dharmata of the mind?

Malcolm wrote:
You can say that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 22nd, 2017 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I think what you are referring to is a state of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
No. Definitely not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
So therefore, one should allow one's afflictions to rage? One should not avoid actions harmful to oneself or others? If you see someone about to be run down by a truck, you should be remain motionless rather than help them?

Just exactly how far does one take this lack of opposition and control?

Anonymous X said:
These kinds of questions are very sophomoric for someone like yourself to be asking. Spontaneous action is always possible. Why put it into a right and wrong context? You act according to the situation when you really pay attention. There is no place called samsara.

jake said:
I'm honestly having a very difficult time putting your comments into context as they often sound so different from what I have studied and learned over the years. From what tradition do you spring forth? Or, if prefer not to "label" yourself, what are the key Sutra upon which you base your comments? Just so I can gain a better understanding of where you are coming from, please?


Malcolm wrote:
He has never studied Buddhadharma with a teacher. He seems like a Rajneesh type of guy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha
Content:
Anonymous X said:
No, I don't. It's only a problem if you want to oppose things or try to control things.

Malcolm wrote:
So therefore, one should allow one's afflictions to rage? One should not avoid actions harmful to oneself or others? If you see someone about to be run down by a truck, you should be remain motionless rather than help them?

Just exactly how far does one take this lack of opposition and control?

Anonymous X said:
These kinds of questions are very sophomoric for someone like yourself to be asking. Spontaneous action is always possible. Why put it into a right and wrong context? You act according to the situation when you really pay attention. There is no place called samsara.

Malcolm wrote:
Why put it into a context of right and wrong? Right actions result in happiness for oneself and others; wrong actions result in suffering for oneself and others.

Samsara is a result of all actions that are driven by afflictions. Nirvana is the opposite.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I've always liked the expression of 'suchness' or 'thusness'. How would I go about explaining something that is not knowable as an experience? I don't think we need to explain it, or search for it. It seems you can only point to experience, not to what is not experienced.

Malcolm wrote:
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?

Anonymous X said:
I've said it before, there is no part of you that can separate and identify such a thing. You are only suggesting an experience of Mind, not buddhanature. If I said this very moment was a manifestation of buddhanature, would you be able to separate buddhanature from it? It's not a 'thing' and I don't try to experience it.


Malcolm wrote:
No, I am not suggesting an experience of mind or Mind (whatever that is).

When you've met a person, you can always spot them in a crowd. So it is with buddhanature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha
Content:
Lobsang Chojor said:
So you don't see samsara as a problem?

Anonymous X said:
No, I don't. It's only a problem if you want to oppose things or try to control things.

Malcolm wrote:
So therefore, one should allow one's afflictions to rage? One should not avoid actions harmful to oneself or others? If you see someone about to be run down by a truck, you should be remain motionless rather than help them?

Just exactly how far does one take this lack of opposition and control?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Buddha nature is not any 'thing'. It can never be separated from what arises, and what arises is impermanent by nature. So I say Buddhanature is Impermanence. This is a truly non dual teaching where there is no separation from anything, nothing to attain, nothing to know. Your literal physical appearance is Buddhanature. It can be called by whatever name one chooses but it will never be found separate from all universes.


Malcolm wrote:
What exactly do you think "buddhanature" is?

Anonymous X said:
I've always liked the expression of 'suchness' or 'thusness'. How would I go about explaining something that is not knowable as an experience? I don't think we need to explain it, or search for it. It seems you can only point to experience, not to what is not experienced.

Malcolm wrote:
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point is that all teachings one has received and their lineages are included within one's own state, represented in the visualization.

smcj said:
Elegant.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and very unelaborate. Of course, this does not mean that one is precluded from doing more elaborate forms of guru yoga is one if so inclined and has time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
smcj said:
My impression is that it skips the historical lineage and just goes to the heart of the matter with the guru being the primordial "AH".


Malcolm wrote:
Not my place to discuss the deeper meanings of the practice. The point is that all teachings one has received and their lineages are included within one's own state, represented in the visualization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
smcj said:
However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.
Serious question: How is Ati guruyoga different than regular guruyoga?


Malcolm wrote:
If you really want to know, I recommend you attend a retreat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
People who truly understand Dzogchen know that it is incomparable. Others are like "Dzogchen? Meh."

dzogchungpa said:
I think it is  mostly the "Dzogchenpas" that provoke the latter reaction, honestly.

Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, maybe but "meh."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 10:08 PM
Title: Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Why would Buddhanature not be impermanence?

Malcolm wrote:
Because it is a contradiction in terms. Buddhanature is not a conditioned thing. Therefore, it cannot be impermanent.

Anonymous X said:
Buddha nature is not any 'thing'. It can never be separated from what arises, and what arises is impermanent by nature. So I say Buddhanature is Impermanence. This is a truly non dual teaching where there is no separation from anything, nothing to attain, nothing to know. Your literal physical appearance is Buddhanature. It can be called by whatever name one chooses but it will never be found separate from all universes.


Malcolm wrote:
What exactly do you think "buddhanature" is?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: The truth of Mahayana beyond literal historicity
Content:
dharmagoat said:
All I really wanted to say is that I feel that Buddhism has become unnecessarily convoluted and esoteric.

Malcolm wrote:
No, people are convoluted.

dharmagoat said:
It is the source of so much confusion.

Malcolm wrote:
No, people are the source of confusion. There is a Dharma gate for every single confusion a person has. People have a lot of confusion, so there are many Dharma gates.


dharmagoat said:
A large proportion of posts on Dharma Wheel involve members wrestling with this confusion and apparently making very little progress.

Malcolm wrote:
You simply are not in a position to make this assessment.


dharmagoat said:
There is a better way: practice without too much regard for theory. In my 30 years as a mediocre Buddhist, I can personally vouch for the effectiveness of basic Buddhist practice.


Malcolm wrote:
There are three wisdoms in Buddhadharma, the wisdom of hearing, the wisdom of reflection, and the wisdom of meditation. One needs to integrate all three.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
smcj said:
But the fact that he continues to state that the point of Dzogchen is the same as Advaita (nondual consciousness) to me shows that he misunderstood the intent of Dzogchen teachings.
Not everyone has a need to keep Dzogchen so unique that there can be no comparison (contamination) to anything else.

Malcolm wrote:
People who truly understand Dzogchen know that it is incomparable. Others are like "Dzogchen? Meh."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I'm glad you use your own words, but I still insist that Buddhanature is not an experiential thing.

Malcolm wrote:
Not for sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
boda said:
The judgment is still being made, it's merely done unconsciously. This is not always a good thing, as when expressed in various types of prejudice

Wayfarer said:
Which is why self-awareness is so important, and also, so foundational to every school of Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
I am assume you mean mindfulness here, knowing what you are doing when you are doing it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Content:
fckw said:
I see. So, where according to the Mahamudra traditions comes ignorance into play? (And what vocabulary are you referring here to denote emptiness and appearance regarding the Mahamudra teachings?) I'm just realizing that the theoretical framework of Mahamudra is less clear to me than Dzogchen.


Malcolm wrote:
Mahāmudra does not divide ignorance up the way it is done in Dzogchen. Mahāmudra merely asserts that ignorance is connate with the mind. It is with the mind from the beginning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
smcj said:
Nice of you to allow for that.


Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is only for people who are truly interested in it. Others should find paths more suited to their wishes, As Pagor Vairocana said to Paṇḍita Prajn̄āsiddhi, when asked with which vehicle can the result be attained, he replied:
The individual entrances into the innermost view of ultimate dharmatā
are differentiated by grades of capacity. 
The result will also be obtained by realizing
any vehicle of the sublime Dharma taught by the Buddha.

pael said:
How about after DI or initiation finding it insuitable for their wishes or capabilities? What to do then?

Malcolm wrote:
They practice what they are able to. As ChNN says, "Do your best." However, Ati guruyoga is about the easiest practice in the world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 8:19 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
If you think dzogchen seeks a dualistic consciousness, please say.

Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen does not seek a "dualistic" consciousness, because consciousness is always dualistic. It is always with concepts.

Dzogchen and Mahāmudra seek to identify the so called mind-essence. This teaching  does not exist in Advaita, and there is nothing remotely like it in that system. There is therefore no way that one can say that Dzogchen and Advaita seek to provoke the same insight. This is why I pointed out that Dzogchen rejects Yogācāra, because indeed, Yogācāra is predicated on seeking a nondual consciousness.

It is an error to dismiss the fact that the underlying view of Dzogchen teachings is emptiness, whereas the underlying view of Advaita is a truly existing yet featureless consciousness called "brahmin."

The insight provoked in Dzogchen couldn't be further away from Advaita.


michaelb said:
Harris talks about his experience from the first person and not though studying the literature. He gives an overview of his experience and how he interpreted it. To expect a dissection of various schools of Indo-Tibetan philosophy would be stupid.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen literature over and over again gives a detailed summation of the various yānas. Why? So that people will not confuse their experiences in this or that yāna with the underlying principles Dzogchen is based upon.

It seems attractive when people "share" their experience. But it is always an error because experiences are temporary and deceptive. Knowledge on the other hand, is not.


michaelb said:
It is Harris's discussion of receiving teachings from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche that I find most interesting. He says that Tulku Urgyen introduced him to the nature of mind and I have no reason to doubt what he says or how he describes it.

Malcolm wrote:
Many people have been introduced to the nature of the mind by this or that famous Dzogchen master. It does not mean they understood what they were being introduced to. But the fact that he continues to state that the point of Dzogchen is the same as Advaita (nondual consciousness) to me shows that he misunderstood the intent of Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 9:50 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
smcj said:
What I'm NOT saying is that everyone should practice Dzogchen.
Nice of you to allow for that.


Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen is only for people who are truly interested in it. Others should find paths more suited to their wishes, As Pagor Vairocana said to Paṇḍita Prajn̄āsiddhi, when asked with which vehicle can the result be attained, he replied:
The individual entrances into the innermost view of ultimate dharmatā
are differentiated by grades of capacity. 
The result will also be obtained by realizing
any vehicle of the sublime Dharma taught by the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 8:22 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Wayfarer said:
That Patribotics blog site looks very much 'fake news' to me, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Malcolm wrote:
Louis Mensche reported last fall (scooping the Times and everyone else) that there was a FISA warrant out on members of the Trump campaign. She was absolutely correct. When the Times, etc., were able to corroborate her story, well, that's history now. So we will wait and see, won't we?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 8:15 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
He explicitly and repeatedly does NOT equate advaita with dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
He explicitly does, right on page 132, "The two traditions seek to provoke the same insight into the nonduality of conciousness..."

michaelb said:
Are you suggesting that dzogchen does not seek to provoke insight into the nonduality of consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
Yogācāra already offers insights into the nonduality of consciousness. Indeed, that is the point of the whole school.

Since Dzogchen rejects Yogācāra insights ( i.e. a Buddhist nondual realism) concerning the nonduality of consciousness, why would it accept Advaita (i.e. a non-Buddhist nondual eternalism) presentations concerning the nonduality of consciousness?  Dzogchen texts and teachings take explicit pains to differentiate themselves from non-Buddhist schools such as Saṃkhya, Vedanta and so on, as well as Yogācāra and so on. Mañjuśrīmitra takes pains to explain why Dzogchen and Yogācāra are not commensurate views. So does Rongzom, so does Longchenpa, etc.

More importantly, he makes a gross error in asserting that Dzogchen and Advaita seeks to provoke the same insight. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I also expect you will now withdraw your claim, "He explicitly and repeatedly does NOT equate advaita with dzogchen," because he repeatedly and explicitly does.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I read his book. Sympathetically at first— and then less as I continued. Really, when it comes right down to it, the only value it may have with respect to Dzogchen teachings, apart from whatever merits it may or may not have, is that someone might go out and actually find out what Dzogchen really is, as opposed to the watered down silliness in his book.

Another point about which he is utterly confused is that he falsely equates Advaita and Dzogchen.

michaelb said:
He explicitly and repeatedly does NOT equate advaita with dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
He explicitly does, right on page 132, "The two traditions seek to provoke the same insight into the nonduality of conciousness..."

michaelb said:
His presentation is interesting precisely because he studied with teachers of different traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
So have I (meaning Buddhist and Hindu (Advaita, Samkhya, Yoga).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
Ergo, Dzogchen is not the "practice (of) a form of awareness." It is the cultivation of a specific kind of knowledge. What knowledge? Knowledge of sugatagarbha.

But Harris's Dzogchen is nothing more than secular mindfulness gussied up in Tibetan drag.
Absolute nonsense. You completely disregard everything Harris says on the subject. He very carefully explains the process of acquiring the "knowledge" of dzogchen using numerous metaphors and examples of pointing out instructions. He, very carefully shows how dzogchen is different and indeed in opposition to shamata and vipassana and other techniques that take objects, gross or subtle, as the focus of concentration.

I would sincerely recommend anyone on this board to read or listen to his book, available free as part of an Audible trial. I feel Harris explains dzogchen with greater clarity than many dzogchen teachers, Tibetan or western.

Malcolm wrote:
I read his book. Sympathetically at first— and then less as I continued. Really, when it comes right down to it, the only value it may have with respect to Dzogchen teachings, apart from whatever merits it may or may not have, is that someone might go out and actually find out what Dzogchen really is, as opposed to the watered down silliness in his book.

Another point about which he is utterly confused is that he falsely equates Advaita and Dzogchen.

michaelb said:
I would sincerely recommend anyone on this board to read or listen to his book, available free as part of an Audible trial. I feel Harris explains dzogchen with greater clarity than many dzogchen teachers, Tibetan or western.

Malcolm wrote:
He does not explain it at all.



M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Yes, some teachers do all sorts of stuff. Doesn't mean I'm cool with that.

tingdzin said:
Who are you?

Dechen Norbu said:
If a teacher is said to be a Dzogchen teacher, then he should teach Dzogchen from the start,

tingdzin said:
Who are you to judge? As I said, there are different approaches, and people make their own decisions. Are you going to say that all the teachers who teach a more traditional way are just wrong? What arrogance.


Malcolm wrote:
I think what he is saying is that there are some teachers who are like the example of a dishonest merchant, setting out a deer's tail and selling donkey meat instead to unsuspecting customers.

I've met such people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
If I want to know what New York is like, I want to be there and experience it, I couldn't care less about the "knowledge" of it.

Malcolm wrote:
When you have experienced something, then you have know what it is. Until then you don't. When you taste sugar, then you know what sugar is. When you have experience of the mind essence, then you know what it is. That is why rig pa is a knowledge and not an awareness.

michaelb said:
Sure, and that is exactly how Harris explains dzogchen practice. Be introduced, recognise and get used to it. But when people teach dzogchen they often talk about the character of the "experience", just as they may talk about the sweetness of sugar rather than just saying they know what sugar tastes like.

Malcolm wrote:
Ergo, Dzogchen is not the "practice (of) a form of awareness." It is the cultivation of a specific kind of knowledge. What knowledge? Knowledge of sugatagarbha.

But Harris's Dzogchen is nothing more than secular mindfulness gussied up in Tibetan drag.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Mantrik said:
Maybe they could ban his immigration back into the USA on the grounds that he is making the trip to meet international terrorists...

Grigoris said:
$110bn sure buys a lot of starving cholera racked Yemenis...



Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is horrible. But the US Gvt. could care less.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[
Luminosity is a completion stage experience in which all appearances subside. Mahāmudra is the experience of union, in which appearance and emptiness are a seamless unity. Rather than being treated as relative (appearance) and emptiness (ultimate), here the two truths are seamless and unified where the distinctions between ultimate and relative, conditioned and unconditioned, etc., are seen through.

fckw said:
Ah, thanks, that again clarifies something.

Would you say this is fairly comparable to the kadag and lhundrup aspects of the base in Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, sort of. The difference is that ka dag can never be a basis for delusion, since it has no appearances. In Dzogchen teachings, the basis for delusion is lhundrup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Warning: this might be total bullshit, but we can only https://patribotics.blog/2017/05/20/exclusive-judiciary-committee-considering-articles-of-impeachment/...

Unknown said:
By Louise Mensch and Claude Taylor

Multiple sources close to the intelligence, justice and law enforcement communities say that the House Judiciary Committee is considering Articles of Impeachment against the President of the United States.

Sources further say that the Supreme Court notified Mr. Trump that the formal process of a case of impeachment against him was begun, before he departed the country on Air Force One. The notification was given, as part of the formal process of the matter, in order that Mr. Trump knew he was not able to use his powers of pardon against other suspects in Trump-Russia cases. Sources have confirmed that the Marshal of the Supreme Court spoke to Mr. Trump.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 2:57 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
If I want to know what New York is like, I want to be there and experience it, I couldn't care less about the "knowledge" of it.

Malcolm wrote:
When you have experienced something, then you have know what it is. Until then you don't. When you taste sugar, then you know what sugar is. When you have experience of the mind essence, then you know what it is. That is why rig pa is a knowledge and not an awareness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Socialism & Communism
Content:
tingdzin said:
I don't care if a cat is black or brown, as long as it catches mice. Unfortunately, neither capitalism nor socialism has proven to be worth a damn in that respect.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Only buddhas, bodhisattvas & arhats 'catch mice'.  Any social or political ism built by worldly humans will never 'catch mice'.

Malcolm wrote:
No political system has ever been set up by an awakened person. Why? It would be like herding cats.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 21st, 2017 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: Harvard study on Media Bias
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
https://shorensteincenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/News-Coverage-Donald-Trump-100-Days-1.pdf
Journalists need to resist even the smallest temptation to see themselves as opponents of government.

Malcolm wrote:
It was Trump and Bannon (and Roger Stone) who declared war on journalism, not the other way around.

That said, at this point, the courts and the press are our present last bastion of defense against these incompetent fools the GOP allowed into office.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
smcj said:
If Trump had a heart attack and died today he has still done permanent damage to our international standing.

Malcolm wrote:
That ship sailed when GWB convinced Congress that invading Iraq was a good idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 11:32 PM
Title: Re: Socialism & Communism
Content:
tingdzin said:
I don't care if a cat is black or brown, as long as it catches mice. Unfortunately, neither capitalism nor socialism has proven to be worth a damn in that respect.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and then there is the fact that neither system is ecologically rational.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Jeff H said:
I think impeachment and article 25 (incompetency) are lose-lose propositions. I don’t share DGA’s domino theory that sees Pence falling right after Trump. I think Pence has shown himself to be cautious and aloof from Trump-mania.

Malcolm wrote:
He also lied. If DJT goes down, so will Pence.


Jeff H said:
Trump is dangerous for his thoughtless miscalculations, but it could be that Pence would show real political savvy and competence in power.

Malcolm wrote:
No, Pence is also an idiot.

The Trump administration crash and burn all but assures a sensible reversal of congressional and executive power back the Democratic Party.

People who sat out the last election will not sit out the next two (2018, 2020). When overall voter turn out is high (not just in battle ground states), the Dems win every time.

People will tolerate this bizarre GOP melange of Ayn Rand cultists and Jesus Camp people for only so long.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
I think this thread has gone off topic in discussing zen but also in discussing the definition of rigpa. I think it is clear that Harris, and others that talk about awareness, not as a translation of rigpa, but as a feature of the ground. Phrases like open awareness, empty cognisance, non-dual awareness, etc. are used as terms for mind's nature not knowledge of it.

Malcolm wrote:
Harris uses awareness for rigpa. Waking Up, pg. 134:
"The Dzogchen master must precipitate an insight on the basis of which a student can thereafter practice a form of awareness (Tibetan: rigpa) that is unencumbered by subject/object dualism."
This point of view does not go beyond Yogacara. Yogācāra is great, but let's not confuse it with Dzogchen.

michaelb said:
I disagree. Rigpa is the insight the Dzogchen master must precipitate. I concede, like many others, Harris uses awareness to refer to different things, (confused awareness, concentrated meditative states, knowledge of the ground, etc.) his main use of awareness, arguably like Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, is of awareness as the ground, the cognisant aspect of non-dual awareness.
I think you have got tied up with this because most use terms like awareness to refer to different things and mostly, when talking about dzogchen, they are talking about sem nyid not rigpa.


Malcolm wrote:
"... practice a form of awareness (Tibetan: rigpa) that is unencumbered by subject/object dualism"

This is the problem. This is not what the term rig pa means. You cannot "practice" rigpa. You either have it or you don't. If you don't, you have ma rig pa, ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
If I understand your question: you are asking if rig pa is the substance of consciousness? I have already provided an authoritative citation from a commentary on a primary tantra which answers this question:

Furthermore, based on the power of repelling the armies of samsara, vidyā (rig pa) is 1) the knowledge (vidyā) of names designated by words, 2) helpful, worldly knowledge such as healing, arts and crafts, and so on, 3) the five sciences (rig pa gnas lnga) of the treatises and so on, 4) knowing (vidyā) as a factor of consciousness, 5) sharp and dull worldly knowledge and so on, and 6) the knowledge of the essence (snying po) that permeates all that is free from ignorance, unobscured by the obscurations of ignorance and so on.

Tolya M said:
Oh, it's like a raging flame that destroys the vegetable treatments of the new age and the advaita-vedanta's demagoguery for western donators. Where does the quote come from, please???

Malcolm wrote:
The commentary on the Tantra Without Syllables.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Why would Buddhanature not be impermanence?

Malcolm wrote:
Because it is a contradiction in terms. Buddhanature is not a conditioned thing. Therefore, it cannot be impermanent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Mystery Object - Dotty Melong
Content:
Mantrik said:
”Numbers 1-9. In Tibetan, these are called the me-wa gu. In English, this is a so-called magic square where any line added up across, down, or the hypotenuse through the middle equals 15. These nine numbers are correlated to the nine stars. It is a system of numerology/astrology. It was borrowed from the Tibetans from the Chinese, remembering that Tibetans use both kar-tsi (white or Indian astrology) and nak-tsi (black or Chinese astrology). (The white and black are abbreviations for the Tibetan for India, gya-kar, vast white, and China, gya-nak, vast black.

Malcolm wrote:
Unfortunately, the idea that Nga rtsi comes from rgya nag rtsi is slightly wrong. The reason why elemental calculation is called Nag rtsi has to do with its founders, who while indeed Chinese, was also named Du har Nag po. Thus, Nag rtsi in reality means "The calculation of Nag po."

Mantrik said:
So, the system was named after the person rather than the other way around. Interesting, thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Also, kartsi is not "white caclulation" (dkar rtsi), it is is rather "stellar calculation" (skar rtsi). This name has nothing whatsoever to with India (rgya gar).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 7:36 PM
Title: Re: Mystery Object - Dotty Melong
Content:
Mantrik said:
”Numbers 1-9. In Tibetan, these are called the me-wa gu. In English, this is a so-called magic square where any line added up across, down, or the hypotenuse through the middle equals 15. These nine numbers are correlated to the nine stars. It is a system of numerology/astrology. It was borrowed from the Tibetans from the Chinese, remembering that Tibetans use both kar-tsi (white or Indian astrology) and nak-tsi (black or Chinese astrology). (The white and black are abbreviations for the Tibetan for India, gya-kar, vast white, and China, gya-nak, vast black.

Malcolm wrote:
Unfortunately, the idea that Nga rtsi comes from rgya nag rtsi is slightly wrong. The reason why elemental calculation is called Nag rtsi has to do with its founder, who while indeed Chinese, was also named Du har Nag po. Thus, Nag rtsi in reality means "The calculation of Nag po."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 7:07 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness and luminosity ('od gsal) are synonyms. When one is in the experience of emptiness or luminosity there are no appearances. In Mahāmudra there are appearances. Which appearances? The appearances of the world.

Temicco said:
How do "appearances" differ from "form", practically? What does the experience of Mahamudra entail that distinguishes it from emptiness/luminosity, such that it entails appearances while the other does not?

What of the saying, "Mind without projection is mahamudra"?

Malcolm wrote:
Luminosity is a completion stage experience in which all appearances subside. Mahāmudra is the experience of union, in which appearance and emptiness are a seamless unity. Rather than being treated as relative (appearance) and emptiness (ultimate), here the two truths are seamless and unified where the distinctions between ultimate and relative, conditioned and unconditioned, etc., are seen through.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 7:04 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
he second is called "vipaśyāna," because one recognizes that movement and calmness are identical in nature.

fckw said:
Now I'm curious - what instructions are usually given out on this particular point in Sutra-Mahamudra?

Malcolm wrote:
Freedom from proliferation, aka, simplicity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 6:59 PM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Wayfarer said:
There was some news footage from the House of a Democratic congressman (or senator?) formally calling for the impeachment. I think he has a perfectly good cause to do that, but it's simply politicking at this moment. That's probably what the news is about - and it is true that impeachment was called for, so it's not fake news. But that particular motion is probably not going to go anywhere.

Personally, I think if a James Comey memo comes out, showing that T. really did ask him to drop the investigation into Flynn, which he has since categorically denied - then that will be checkmate.


Malcolm wrote:
We will see what the special prosecutor turns up. It won't be pretty and some people are definitely going to jail. Whatever the case may be, Trump has injured the GOP's brand for a long time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 11:59 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A cause that does not produce a result is a non cause.


aflatun said:
Agreed, although Nirvana, at least in the Pali tradition (which I'm not pushing) does have a sense in which all phenomena do cease, depending on who you ask, Nirvana without residue/Arahattaphala Samadhi (Nanananda), Timless, Cessation of the Personality Factors/Unconstructed Discernment (Peter Harvey), Nirvana without residue post mortem (Buddhaghosa). But we're not talking about that so I'm happy to leave it there.

Nirvana is the cessation of hatred, greed and delusion. I said "destruction" before, and it seems you took issue with this word. I'll take your word for it, as you are a scholar and I respect that. But the general form of the proposition is not controversial as I understand it.

While I appreciate this exchange (I mean that) I'd like to return to where it started. When I asked why cessation wasn't an experience you said:



Can you explain how this relates?

You also said:



I still need help with this. Nirvana is the cessation of the three poisons. Saying they never grew (why is this in the past tense) in the state of nirvana sounds redundant to me. Of course they didn't, the state of nirvana is itself their irreversible cessation. What were you getting at here?

Further, Nirvana is in one sense precisely experience which is no longer conditioned by hatred, greed and delusion. So it is six sense base experience marked by the absence of cognitive and affective distortions. For Buddha Joe, those afflictions were once present, after awakening they're absent. This absence would have to be discernible. How? For one, suffering is now impossible, always and forever.

Further you stated:





I can't resolve the two bolded statements. Help?

Malcolm wrote:
.


The absence of a cause is not the absence of something since there is nothing by which that absence may be identified.

aflatun said:
How does this follow? The cause is the three poisons. They are assuredly something (barring any one upmanship here ). Their absence is identified by the cessation of suffering, birth, death, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 11:33 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no reason any positive dharmas will cease as a result of insight. The purpose of insight is to see what is negative and remove the causes for that.

aflatun said:
Agreed, although Nirvana, at least in the Pali tradition (which I'm not pushing) does have a sense in which all phenomena do cease, depending on who you ask, Nirvana without residue/Arahattaphala Samadhi (Nanananda), Timless, Cessation of the Personality Factors/Unconstructed Discernment (Peter Harvey), Nirvana without residue post mortem (Buddhaghosa). But we're not talking about that so I'm happy to leave it there.

Nirvana is the cessation of hatred, greed and delusion. I said "destruction" before, and it seems you took issue with this word. I'll take your word for it, as you are a scholar and I respect that. But the general form of the proposition is not controversial as I understand it.

While I appreciate this exchange (I mean that) I'd like to return to where it started. When I asked why cessation wasn't an experience you said:

Malcolm wrote:
All experiences are necessarily conceptual.

aflatun said:
Can you explain how this relates?

You also said:

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot experience the absence of three poisons that have never arisen. This is why nirvana is peaceful. It is not an experience of an absence of anything. The three poisons never grew in the state of nirvana.

aflatun said:
I still need help with this. Nirvana is the cessation of the three poisons. Saying they never grew (why is this in the past tense) in the state of nirvana sounds redundant to me. Of course they didn't, the state of nirvana is itself their irreversible cessation. What were you getting at here?

Further, Nirvana is in one sense precisely experience which is no longer conditioned by hatred, greed and delusion. So it is six sense base experience marked by the absence of cognitive and affective distortions. For Buddha Joe, those afflictions were once present, after awakening they're absent. This absence would have to be discernible. How? For one, suffering is now impossible, always and forever.

Further you stated:

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot experience a tree that has never grown. Cessation is not the absence of something.
A cessation is the absence of cause for arising. Saying you can experience a cessation is like saying you can experience the sprout that never grows from a burnt seed.

aflatun said:
I can't resolve the two bolded statements. Help?

Malcolm wrote:
.


The absence of a cause is not the absence of something since there is nothing by which that absence may be identified.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 10:54 AM
Title: Re: Socialism & Communism
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
No, advocate and inspire people to ignore materialistic cravings.  Instead turn them toward living the buddhadharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh yes, and throwing in your lot with Fundamentalist Christians Like Pence is really going to advance that agenda...

Nicholas Weeks said:
Ho Hum - straw man again...

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is what conservatism means now, guns and Jesus.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 7:59 AM
Title: Re: Socialism & Communism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
For goodness sake, you really think it ended?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely. Capitalism won.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: Socialism & Communism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
The secular ideologues of much of the Left still prefer political so-called solutions to try and fix samsara.

dharmagoat said:
What else? Do we leave it to rot?

Nicholas Weeks said:
No, advocate and inspire people to ignore materialistic cravings.  Instead turn them toward living the buddhadharma.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh yes, and throwing in your lot with Fundamentalist Christians Like Pence is really going to advance that agenda...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 7:57 AM
Title: Re: Socialism & Communism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
For those who prefer videos to texts, ponder (not react immediately, if possible) on these offerings:

https://www.youtube.com/user/VOCvideos

Malcolm wrote:
Oh for lord's sake man. You're still fighting the cold war.

Nicholas Weeks said:
For goodness sake, you really think it ended?  The secular ideologues of much of the Left still prefer political so-called solutions to try and fix samsara.


Malcolm wrote:
You prefer the Christocratic Right?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Song of the Vajra only requires that you've had direct introduction, Same for Rushens, Semdzins, Lojong. It doesn't have a separate lung or anything that I know if.....

Pero said:
Song of the Vajra is a mantra and requires lung. But Rinpoche gives it every retreat.


Johnny Dangerous said:
Really? I don't recall that in any of the lists of lungs given in the ones I've done, but i'll take your word for it.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, it is in the short thun, etc.. And he always gives the lung for it when he explains Ati Guru Yoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: Socialism & Communism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
For those who prefer videos to texts, ponder (not react immediately, if possible) on these offerings:

https://www.youtube.com/user/VOCvideos


Malcolm wrote:
Oh for lord's sake man. You're still fighting the cold war.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
We conservatives ground our teeth for 8 years, you can suck it up can you not?

Malcolm wrote:
I am sorry, do you mean to say that you have changed your position and now actually believe this person is qualified to be president?

This is not a right/left issue. Oh wait, except the the fact that very few people in the GOP have any ...

And one more thing since we are on it — violence at protests is not confined exclusively to the far left. The far right is heavily invested in it as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Exactly why I made this post.

Malcolm wrote:
Just stick with papers of record.

Coëmgenu said:
What does the term "papers of record" entail? Original documents?


Malcolm wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_of_record

In the US, that would be the NY Times, the Post, the LA Times, and the Wall Street Journal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
smcj said:
I guess the left has fake news too.

Coëmgenu said:
Exactly why I made this post.

Malcolm wrote:
Just stick with papers of record.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:



aflatun said:
Has any dharma whatsoever arisen in the state of nirvana? Why are the three poisons exempt? Aren't they empty like everything else?



On your reading what distinguishes the two? What has changed? (Besides the fact that perception and feeling have "resumed" and one is walking about, etc). I'm guessing you wouldn't accept "the destruction of hatred, greed, delusion" as a valid answer here


Malcolm wrote:
In the context, nirvana is not the cessation of all phenomena, it is the cessation of all afflictive phenomena.

The three poisons are not things that can be destroyed, like pots. In order to destroy them, you would have to destroy the mind. In other words, you would have to "Destroy the village to save it, sir."

aflatun said:
Can you explain what the context is then?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no reason any positive dharmas will cease as a result of insight. The purpose of insight is to see what is negative and remove the causes for that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: One Upsmanship places on DW
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
PS game is what language is; its inescapable if the escape
Is sought from language. Actually yoga is the only escape , refuge, etc. Milarepa often used the phrase, play words. We could also like Wittgenstein refer to the language game. Or word games. Arranging syllables to direct an effect, this is a strategy. Strategy is game. In language the game is to affirm potential of ego. They call ego games. It seems to me that's all that happens ever. Look at me. I'm right. Feels good. Do it again. Now you challenge or join the team.


Malcolm wrote:
The old "I am not gonna play your game" play.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Definitely knockoffs.


DGA said:
This looks like one of Rinpoche's designs for melong, no?

https://www.etsy.com/listing/268851337/melong-small-handmade-buddhist-pendant?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=melong&ref=sr_gallery_1

anyone know who the maker might be?

thoughts?

edit:  another one

https://www.etsy.com/listing/268266865/melong-handmade-buddhist-pendant?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=melong&ref=sr_gallery_18

and other

https://www.etsy.com/listing/493959203/buddhist-pendant-melong-made-from?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=melong&ref=sr_gallery_3


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Donald Trump Impeached
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
Is Donald Trump actually getting impeached? I just read an article claiming that it was "official" "confirmed" and "inevitable".

Malcolm wrote:
We can only hope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 20th, 2017 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The three poisons never arose in the state of nirvana, they are not in a state called unborn or nonarisen. There can be no such  state, by definition



aflatun said:
Has any dharma whatsoever arisen in the state of nirvana? Why are the three poisons exempt? Aren't they empty like everything else?

Malcolm wrote:
You also have to distinguish between the absorption of cessation, nirodhasamapatti, and the subsequent attainment of cessation, where one is no longer subject to birth and death.

aflatun said:
On your reading what distinguishes the two? What has changed? (Besides the fact that perception and feeling have "resumed" and one is walking about, etc). I'm guessing you wouldn't accept "the destruction of hatred, greed, delusion" as a valid answer here


Malcolm wrote:
In the context, nirvana is not the cessation of all phenomena, it is the cessation of all afflictive phenomena.

The three poisons are not things that can be destroyed, like pots. In order to destroy them, you would have to destroy the mind. In other words, you would have to "Destroy the village to save it, sir."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I don't think I've ever heard you say 'in a discussion with my teacher', or 'my teacher said this'. That's fine with me. I'm not setting you up for Malcom.


Malcolm wrote:
Astus has studied with a number of Zen teachers, and couple of Kagyu ones too, if I am not mistaken.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 8:41 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A cessation is the absence of cause for arising. Saying you can experience a cessation is like saying you can experience the sprout that never grows from a burnt seed.

aflatun said:
So the cause here would be ignorance? And the arising here would mean the arising of any dharma whatsoever?

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot experience the absence of three poisons that have never arisen. This is why nirvana is peaceful. It is not an experience of an absence of anything. The three poisons never grew in the state of nirvana.

aflatun said:
I think you're saying in the state of nirvana the three poisons (and any dharma) are unborn and unarisen (correct me if I misunderstand). But in saying this is not an experience you're not saying it is rather a cognitive blackout, or a blank void?

Malcolm wrote:
The three poisons never arose in the state of nirvana, they are not in a state called unborn or nonarisen. There can be no such  state, by definition.

You also have to distinguish between the absorption of cessation, nirodhasamapatti, and the subsequent attainment of cessation, where one is no longer subject to birth and death.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
Seeking Wisdom said:
Uh oh. Does this mean that I have not received rigpa tsal wang?

I've been reading some heavy stuff under the impression that I had. Might this be what's creating obstacles? What would you suggest as a course of action Malcolm?


Malcolm wrote:
You received it. The transmission anniversaries are no substitute for attending a webcast retreat, that is all I am saying. But they will give you a "kick in the pants."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 7:02 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:


Seeking Wisdom said:
@Malcolm, Song of the Vajra is restricted. So not sure it's fair to expect a newbie to have read it going into things. I'll add it to my list though. And here I thought Dzogchen was the lazy man's path.


Malcolm wrote:
There is a very great misunderstanding that has arisen around the so called "transmission days." Originally they were anniversaries where the DC would gather every where in the world at the same time to do a practice related to that days anniversary.

Then, sometime in the late 90's, ChNN came up with the idea of doing remote transmissions guided by video tape. This was soon replaced by webcast transmissions.

But if you have not at least listened to ChNN intro to Dzogchen talks and so on, it is unlikely you will be properly prepared to receive transmission. So many people attend these webcast transmissions, but not understanding the real principle, they remain confused through no fault of their own.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:


aflatun said:
EDIT: In your initial statement that these things (cessation of craving, insight into emptiness) are not experiences, perhaps you meant that they are not transient meditation states? Not that they aren't literally within the domain of experience?

Malcolm wrote:
A cessation is the absence of cause for arising. Saying you can experience a cessation is like saying you can experience the sprout that never grows from a burnt seed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 5:56 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:


aflatun said:
No quarrel with that from me.

If I'm following you, you're contrasting nonconceptual wisdom of seeing emptiness for example (jnana, etc), vs. experience (always conceptual)?

Even if that's the case I'm not sure I understand how the cessation of craving is not an experience, as Astus said. Something that was previously present is gone (forever) and that absence is experienced. Thoughts?

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot experience a tree that has never grown. Cessation is not the absence of something.

aflatun said:
We're talking about cessation qua 3rd NT right? Nirvana is not the absence of hatred, greed, delusion?

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot experience the absence of three poisons that have never arisen. This is why nirvana is peaceful. It is not an experience of an absence of anything. The three poisons never grew in the state of nirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:


aflatun said:
Could you unpack this some? If they're not experiences what are they?

Malcolm wrote:
All experiences are necessarily conceptual.

aflatun said:
No quarrel with that from me.

If I'm following you, you're contrasting nonconceptual wisdom of seeing emptiness for example (jnana, etc), vs. experience (always conceptual)?

Even if that's the case I'm not sure I understand how the cessation of craving is not an experience, as Astus said. Something that was previously present is gone (forever) and that absence is experienced. Thoughts?

Malcolm wrote:
You cannot experience a tree that has never grown. Cessation is not the absence of something.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
dharmagoat said:
"Seeing", however it is meant metaphorically, still pertains to experience.

Astus said:
Not really. The third noble truth is the truth of cessation, the end of craving - that is not an experience. Seeing emptiness, the nature of phenomena, is the end of fabricating a self/substance, the cessation of conceptualisation, so again - that is not an experience.

aflatun said:
Could you unpack this some? If they're not experiences what are they?

Malcolm wrote:
All experiences are necessarily conceptual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:


conebeckham said:
Yes, different......in some sense.  And there are many other different methods---the Lama may make gestures, or speak a few words.  Different approaches, but same goal.  The more "gradual" questions are more in line with Mahamudra, or with Sem De Dzogchen, I think.  Rigpai TselWang is a more "instant" approach, if that makes sense.


Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of "rig pa'i rtsal dbangs." For example, the fourth empowerment of the King's Tradition Avalokiteśvara is called "the empowerment of the potential of vidyā," there are eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs connected with Sems sde, and so on.

conebeckham said:
They are all, more or less, "instant," though, yes?  As opposed to, questioning/investigation sorts of approaches?

Malcolm wrote:
Not really, the eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs takes a fairly long time, with a lot of explanations, etc. However, they work with experiences as well, not so much question and answer, as in the sems khrid approach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
You are the one providing the quotes here.

Astus said:
I find it a good way to avoid stating things that are incompatible with the Dharma, furthermore, it allows everyone to cross reference it.

Anonymous X said:
Off the top of my head, the Buddha silently holds up a flower amidst a gathering of his followers. Only Kasyapa responds with a knowing smile. Hence, the transmission of the Dharma to Kasyapa, the first patriarch of Chan. These are nice stories, but how does this help you uproot the foundation of the self structure?

Malcolm wrote:
It helps if you know what kind of flower it was.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
michaelb said:
I was wondering about the difference between the kind of direct introduction or rigpa'i tsal wang, where the lama shouts phat or some such syllable, compared to a more conversational pointing out, where the lama asks questions. Where/what is the mind, etc. Actually, at one Rigdzin Dupa wang the lama shouted a question.
Traditionally, are these two approaches seen as different?

conebeckham said:
Yes, different......in some sense.  And there are many other different methods---the Lama may make gestures, or speak a few words.  Different approaches, but same goal.  The more "gradual" questions are more in line with Mahamudra, or with Sem De Dzogchen, I think.  Rigpai TselWang is a more "instant" approach, if that makes sense.


Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of "rig pa'i rtsal dbangs." For example, the fourth empowerment of the King's Tradition Avalokiteśvara is called "the empowerment of the potential of vidyā," there are eighteen rig pa'i rtsal dbangs connected with Sems sde, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 1:26 AM
Title: Re: Confused about nature of mind introduction
Content:
Seeking Wisdom said:
Hello every one. I've been browsing this board since I found it recently and haven't been able to find a concern I've been having in any other thread, so thought I'd register and ask.

I've been chasing after the dzogchen experience for some time now and earlier this year I watched a webcast with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche where he introduced rigpa through a guru yoga of Garab Dorje. I keep reading over and over that the introduction is to introduce you to the state of rigpa, and then afterwards you work with integrating what you were introduced to. It just so happens that I did not recognize anything (at least consciously) during the introduction, so I'm unsure how to work with meditating on something I had no recognition of in the first place. I paid full attention during the retreat and followed along closely with the visualizations and recitations. Am I just not a suitable candidate for Dzogchen?

What is the course of action I should take here, if any? If any one has any thoughts on this I'm all ears.

Thanks.


Malcolm wrote:
You do not understand the principle of the three transmissions, it seems. ChNN describes them very precisely on page-15-17 of the Song of the Vajra book.

In essence, a teacher communicates with words and symbols in order to generate an understanding of the meaning of the Great Perfection in the students mind. If you do not have an understanding of the verbal and symbolic transmissions, there is no way you will enter into direct transmission. The direct transmission means being in the same state of knowledge as the teacher at the same time. This is why ChNN, when he gives retreats, explains the meaning of the direct introduction through words and symbols before he gives it. If you do not have a conceptual understanding of the meaning of Dzogchen going into direct introduction, you may not recognize what is being pointed out during transmission. He says:

Chogyal Namkahai Norbu said:
The third method, direct transmisison, implies that one already has the knowledge of the oral and symbolic transmissions. Through these two, one has an idea of how to enter the real nature; then by using different experiences together, and by entering into that real nature at the same moment as the teacher, there is the possibility that one also receives direct transmission. So direct transmission implies the the possibility of receiving knowledge, when the student already knows how to work while the teacher transmits that knowledge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Presence and Awareness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If you are a student of ChNN, you have three main jobs:

1) Guru Yoga as a means of finding and then sustaining knowledge of your own state (rig pa).
2) Being present and aware, i.e. mindful and aware.
3) Working with circumstances.

dharmagoat said:
Hello Malcolm.

How would you describe what "working with circumstances" entails?

Malcolm wrote:
It means understanding your life in a practical way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 19th, 2017 at 12:04 AM
Title: Re: Presence and Awareness
Content:
TaTa said:
Would you say that sov is next in importance to those?

Malcolm wrote:
Song of the Vajra is a component of Guru Yoga, a support for it, if you will. So it comes in 1.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
How would you know what it is like to be in the presence of a Buddha or fully awakened being? There are many stories in Buddhist literature of sudden awakening in the presence of such a one.

Astus said:
Could you provide a few quotes from the sutras where people attained enlightenment because of the presence of a buddha?


Malcolm wrote:
Should be:

"Could you provide a few quotes from the sutras where people attained enlightenment because of being in the mere presence of a buddha?"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: One Upsmanship places on DW
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Over on another https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25540&start=20#p388058, I identified a common oneupmanship play in the constant game of "Dharma" oneupmanship that goes on here at DW.

Please use this space to share your favorite oneupmanship plays and strategies here.

Possible themes for discussion

The nonduality play

The humblebrag play

etc.

Anders said:
Nice try, Malcolm. But you are simply not enlightened enough to fathom the plays that those of us who really get it play. You're just going to have to trust that I am doing it for your sake. Of course, your rampant prapanca can't stomach that. But don't worry. That's why I am here for you.

Malcolm wrote:
You sound like Anonx.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:


Anonymous X said:
How would you know what it is like to be in the presence of a Buddha or fully awakened being?

Malcolm wrote:
The real question here is how would you? You keep on waffling on about Chan, yet you've never practiced it. You keep waffling on about koans, but you've never practiced the koan method. In fact, just as your posts over in the Dzogchen forum were deeply arrogant and uninformed (and no one who has not received teachings from a master is informed about Dzogchen), so too are your posts here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 12:46 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
that is more or less correct, but not in the way you are putting it.



Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadharma is a direct oral tradition. You either in it or out of it.

Anonymous X said:
Neither in, nor out. Neither not in nor not out. Any others?



Malcolm wrote:
You can play all the word games you want. But what"s the point?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 12:38 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
dharmagoat said:
Don't forget Malcolm, you are in Zen territory here.

This subforum is populated by members that do not uphold the Vajrayana or Dzogchen view, and are generally willing only to accept the guidance of fellow Zen practitioners and teachers. With this is mind, please consider that your efforts here (no matter how well-intended) may be interpreted as trolling.



Malcolm wrote:
The person whom I am addressing has no relationship with the Buddhist tradition, much less Zen.

Anonymous X said:
that is more or less correct, but not in the way you are putting it.



Malcolm wrote:
Buddhadharma is a direct oral tradition. You either in it or out of it.

You just can"t get it from books.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 12:32 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The person whom I am addressing has no relationship with the Buddhist tradition, much less Zen.

dharmagoat said:
Feel free to engage him on a general or non-Zen subforum.

Malcolm wrote:
I will engage with whomever I please on whichever sub-forum I please, thank you very much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 12:27 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
So?

Malcolm wrote:
You just don"t get it. Lack of a proper teacher is likely the root of it.

dharmagoat said:
Don't forget Malcolm, you are in Zen territory here.

This subforum is populated by members that do not uphold the Vajrayana or Dzogchen view, and are generally willing only to accept the guidance of fellow Zen practitioners and teachers. With this is mind, please consider that your efforts here (no matter how well-intended) may be interpreted as trolling.



Malcolm wrote:
The person whom I am addressing has no relationship with the Buddhist tradition, much less Zen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 12:24 PM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
So?

Malcolm wrote:
You just don"t get it. Lack of a proper teacher is likely the root of it.

Anonymous X said:
From your point of view, yes? Said, according what you wish to achieve.

Malcolm wrote:
Who said there was anything to achieve? That is not what the Buddha taught.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 11:48 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
So?

Malcolm wrote:
You just don"t get it. Lack of a proper teacher is likely the root of it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 11:43 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
I believe I mentioned some already in one of my posts above. When you spend 10 years around someone that doesn't grasp, you begin to understand the scope of this a lot more and how very rare it is. Living effortlessly without a shred of dis-ease. No self, no mind. Nothing to accomplish. Total presence. No fluctuations of any inner disturbance. That dude died while alive, much the same as Ramana.

Malcolm wrote:
Such a state does not indicate awakening. For example, in the Yoga Sūgtras, there is what they call "Kaivalya." A person who has attained kaivalya might appear much as you describe Ramana to be. Certainly my yoga guru discussed this in these terms: when you achieve liberation through Yoga, for you there will be nothing to do, just sit in your apartment,  breath, eat, shit, until you die, absorbed in purusha.

But what distinguishes such a person? How does one know they are awakened, as opposed to resting in a mundane samadhi?

If your notion of liberation is divorced from putting an end to samsaric rebirth, how is it even relevant at all to Buddha's teachings? And if it is not relevant to Buddha's teachings, why waste your time here?

M

Anonymous X said:
Don't worry about me wasting my time. It is not your concern, thanks.
As my teacher used to say, that person who sought liberation is gone. All questions regarding statements like samadhi and awakening are only relevant to that person who was the seeker. The question of how do you know is not relevant and never comes up. There is no movement to pose and answer these questions. Only when there is self do these questions get asked.

Because you believe in the system you follow, every experience is going to be filtered through this model. This is the thing that has to stop, IMO. It is a form of grasping and shows that the comparative mind is still dominant. It is nothing more than an intellectual exercise that we think is 'sacred'. Every thing you do revolves around your sense of self. If that ever stops, really stops, let me know. I will be the first in line to wai to you.

Malcolm wrote:
You really don't get the point. But it is not surprising since you are not someone who has entered Buddha dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
How many people have you met who have ended grasping?

Malcolm wrote:
How would you tell? What are the observable characteristics of such a person?

boda said:
They should be at least relatively stress-free, right? There are many observable expressions of stress.

Malcolm wrote:
There are all kinds of stress. Some more observable than others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: How can one with "wrong" view become a Buddha?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
My main teacher was not a Buddhist...

Malcolm wrote:
That explains everything.


Anonymous X said:
A path is always tied to time and space.

Malcolm wrote:
So are you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Me too! Me too!
Content:
smcj said:
From "Moonbeams of Mahamudra" by Treleg R. introduction:
(The erratic capitalization is from the book.) It is important to understand that this Mahamudra system goes beyond Tantra. The text contains a discussion on the relationship between Tantra and Mahamudra but Mahamudra is not confined to conventional tantra practices. The goal of all higher tantric practices is to realize mahamudra, but Mahamudra meditation is a distinct meditative system. Conventional tantra practices include visualizations of deitites, mantra recitation, ritual practices, chanting, and so on. Not so in Mahamudra meditation. Mahamudra does not rely on any of these things or even regard them as important. We can practice Mahamudra without practicing Tantra or we can practice it in conjunctions with Tantra, but the Mahamudra system as presented in this manual is a complete and distinct practice in its own right.
I just wanted to make the point that Dzogchen does not monopolize this kind of approach.

(Me too! Me too!)

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, but indeed, as Machig Labdron says of the dharmadhātu after going through all the yānas, including Dzogchen and Mahāmudra:
The ignorant and confused are deluded
because they know and apprehend the dharmadhātu as an object [...]
All of these knowledges (rig pa)
are knowledges that know objects.
Those [knowledges that] possess objects are not true.
There is nothing to know in the mind without objects.
Whoever knows is bound by knowledge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
How many people have you met who have ended grasping?

Malcolm wrote:
How would you tell? What are the observable characteristics of such a person?

Anonymous X said:
I believe I mentioned some already in one of my posts above. When you spend 10 years around someone that doesn't grasp, you begin to understand the scope of this a lot more and how very rare it is. Living effortlessly without a shred of dis-ease. No self, no mind. Nothing to accomplish. Total presence. No fluctuations of any inner disturbance. That dude died while alive, much the same as Ramana.

Malcolm wrote:
Such a state does not indicate awakening. For example, in the Yoga Sūgtras, there is what they call "Kaivalya." A person who has attained kaivalya might appear much as you describe Ramana to be. Certainly my yoga guru discussed this in these terms: when you achieve liberation through Yoga, for you there will be nothing to do, just sit in your apartment,  breath, eat, shit, until you die, absorbed in purusha.

But what distinguishes such a person? How does one know they are awakened, as opposed to resting in a mundane samadhi?

If your notion of liberation is divorced from putting an end to samsaric rebirth, how is it even relevant at all to Buddha's teachings? And if it is not relevant to Buddha's teachings, why waste your time here?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos
Content:
Anonymous X said:
How many people have you met who have ended grasping?

Malcolm wrote:
How would you tell? What are the observable characteristics of such a person?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 18th, 2017 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Presence and Awareness
Content:
HandsomeMonkeyking said:
Hello,

Some teachers speak about presence and others about awareness, others use both terms. Is there a difference or are this synonyms?

CNN also uses the word contemplation. What is the tibetan word he uses 'contemplation' for?

Thank you


Malcolm wrote:
Presence = dran pa = smṛti = mindfulness
Awareness = shes bzhin = saṃprajāna = awareness
Contemplation = ting nge 'dzin = samadhi = samadhi.


Smṛti and saṃprajāna always accompany one another. If you are being mindful, you are being aware. If you are being aware, you are being mindful.

If you are a student of ChNN, you have three main jobs:

1) Guru Yoga as a means of finding and then sustaining knowledge of your own state (rig pa).
2) Being present and aware, i.e. mindful and aware.
3) Working with circumstances.

That's it.

We can add a fourth:

Do your best.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: How can one with "wrong" view become a Buddha?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
(bracketing Chan/Zen here).
.

Queequeg said:
What do you mean? Zen is or is not Sutrayana?

Malcolm wrote:
Zen/Chan is special case. It is included with sūtrayāna in general. But we cannot say that its methodology is strictly analytical or merit accumulation based.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti
Content:
Grigoris said:
I have read the history of this and it does not seem COMPLETELY unlikely to me.  Again though:  the point is that Christians found the essence of the tale important enough to include it in their canon.

Malcolm wrote:
It does not mean that they were aware of its origin, and there is no evidence to suggest that they were, since the tale was quite garbled and out of its context by the time it reached the the Christian world, and also quite a long time after the last Buddhist monasteries in Eastern Iran, etc. were deserted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: How can one with "wrong" view become a Buddha?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But if for example, one still believes in purusha or brahmin as an ultimate self/principle, then you will not make much progress in your practice beyond accumulation merit for a better rebirth, as well as having made a solid connection with a Buddhist guru.

Losal Samten said:
Believing in the ontologically existent perfected nature would also merely lead to cultivating merit, no? it is a breakage of samaya to abandon the view of emptiness free from extremes. So there is that as well.
And Yogacara's emptiness is not nisprapanca.

Malcolm wrote:
As for question one: provided that one engaged in the standard set of virtuous deeds, but not on its own as a belief.

Yogācārins certainly thought their presentation of emptiness was niṣprapañca. So do Theravadins.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: How can one with "wrong" view become a Buddha?
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Can you really state that Jesus' view is incorrect

Malcolm wrote:
Sure.

Anonymous X said:
And, btw, what do they do with all those dead non-buddhists? Where do they go?

Malcolm wrote:
They remain right here with us in samsara until they meet the Dharma.

Anonymous X said:
Is the after life segregated? And, how bout those billions of Muslims?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no "afterlife," there is just this endless round of samsara. Most sentient beings will not get out anytime soon.

Anonymous X said:
Are the Vajrayanas really top shelf...?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: How can one with "wrong" view become a Buddha?
Content:


Boomerang said:
A person like that could have confidence in place of doubt. Through a mixture of arrogance, optimism, and under-education, they could believe that they understand Buddhadharma at its core. And if anyone objects to the idea that Brahman and emptiness are equal, it's just a sign that the objector is confused. If a person like that received empowerment and practiced a sadhana on the basis of that empowerment, could hey become a Buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
No, because their fundamental confusion will interfere with the meaning of the view pointed out during empowerment. Of course, if through practicing they abandoned this confused idea well then, no problem.

It is not the same with respect to Yogacara and Madhyamaka. Both advocate emptiness as correct view.

Boomerang said:
Alright, if I'm understanding this correctly, there are multiple views of reality. The ultimate view is the tantric view. Below that, there are various sutra mahayana views. All of these are okay for receiving empowerment. Below that there are non-Buddhist views of reality, and these interfere with empowerment such that attaining Buddhahood is impossible. However, even if one receives empowerment while holding a confused view, they can grow out of it through practicing, and then they can become a Buddha.

Is all of that correct?


Malcolm wrote:
The view gained through empowerment/direct introduction is experiential. The views of sūtra are analytical (bracketing Chan/Zen here).

In sutrayāna, it is important that one's view in equipoise and post-equipoise match. It is for this reason that Madhyamakas such as Candrakīrti assert one cannot attain the path of seeing via Yogācāra. This is because one's view in equipoise is a product of analysis.

If one faithfully practices the methods of sadhana, however, the method itself familiarizes one with the experiential view gained in empowerment that corresponds with the correct view arrived at in sūtrayāna equipoise. Then, it does not matter whether you advocate Yogācāra or Madhyamaka, since both are within the general rubric of Mahāyāna and emphasize the two-fold emptiness.

With respect to that, even if you hold very wrong views, such Advaita, Samkhya, and so on, theoretically cultivation of sadhana methods of the Buddha can help you overcome these views through the development of the two accumulations. But if for example, one still believes in purusha or brahmin as an ultimate self/principle, then you will not make much progress in your practice beyond accumulation merit for a better rebirth, as well as having made a solid connection with a Buddhist guru.

There is however one other slight problem with thinking you can hold Hindu views while practicing Buddhist Vajrayāna sadhana —— it is a breakage of samaya to abandon the view of emptiness free from extremes. So there is that as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 12:15 PM
Title: Re: How can one with "wrong" view become a Buddha?
Content:


Boomerang said:
If a person received empowerment and practiced a sadhana on the basis of that empowerment all while believing Brahman and emptiness were synonymous, could they become a Buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't think so. Why? Because they would have a fundamental doubt about the veracity of Buddhadharma.

Boomerang said:
A person like that could have confidence in place of doubt. Through a mixture of arrogance, optimism, and under-education, they could believe that they understand Buddhadharma at its core. And if anyone objects to the idea that Brahman and emptiness are equal, it's just a sign that the objector is confused. If a person like that received empowerment and practiced a sadhana on the basis of that empowerment, could hey become a Buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
No, because their fundamental confusion will interfere with the meaning of the view pointed out during empowerment. Of course, if through practicing they abandoned this confused idea well then, no problem.

It is not the same with respect to Yogacara and Madhyamaka. Both advocate emptiness as correct view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 11:50 AM
Title: Re: How can one with "wrong" view become a Buddha?
Content:
Boomerang said:
Thank you for the answers everybody. Okay, so if I understand this correctly, two people practicing Vajrayana could have diametrically opposed beliefs on what emptiness means, but as long as they both had Mahayana motivation they would both become Buddhas.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is based on the fact they both have received empowerments and are practicing their sadhana on the basis of those empowerments.

Boomerang said:
If a person received empowerment and practiced a sadhana on the basis of that empowerment all while believing Brahman and emptiness were synonymous, could they become a Buddha?


Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't think so. Why? Because they would have a fundamental doubt about the veracity of Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 11:22 AM
Title: Re: How can one with "wrong" view become a Buddha?
Content:
Boomerang said:
Thank you for the answers everybody. Okay, so if I understand this correctly, two people practicing Vajrayana could have diametrically opposed beliefs on what emptiness means, but as long as they both had Mahayana motivation they would both become Buddhas.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is based on the fact they both have received empowerments and are practicing their sadhana on the basis of those empowerments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 10:33 AM
Title: Re: Entry into gcod
Content:
michaelb said:
Probably a good idea to receive Yumka Dechen Gyalmo empowerment, though. There's only a peaceful dakini (Dechen Gyalmo) and wrathful dakini (Sengedongma) empowerment in LN, and other practices  (like Tara, maybe) rely on those.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you just need to receive direct introduction.

michaelb said:
What do you mean by "direct introduction", what term are you translating here? I assume you would also need lung and tri?

I suppose I'm wondering what the difference between nam mkha'i sgo 'byed, ngo sprod spras pa and rig pa'i rtsal dbang is.

Just to add, I think it's quite a Longchen Nyingthig thing to receive empowerments and that rather than just rely on direct introduction(?)

Malcolm wrote:
This particular chod is grounded in Dzogchen. All you need to practice this chod is direct introduction, ala, first phrase of Garab Dorje.

Of course you also need the lung for the practice, but you certainly do not need to receive any kind of empowerment, including "the opening of the sky door." Having said that, it is not a fault to receive Dechen Gyalmo, etc. It just isn't necessary.

This of course has a lot to do with a difference in perspective about empowerments from an Ati point of view and a Maha or Anuyoga point of view.



[Mod note: This topic had been necroed and was split to here:]
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=663428#p663428


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 10:25 AM
Title: Re: Turning the light around (asraya-paravrtti)
Content:
鐵觀音 said:
Yet,
when I hear this translation from Linji, the only thing which sounds close is the advaitic technique of "being aware of awareness". Ramana's self-inquiry is a close second.

Malcolm wrote:
Pardon me for butting in here, but there is a strong sympathy in Western Zen circles for Advaita.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 10:22 AM
Title: Re: How can one with "wrong" view become a Buddha?
Content:
Boomerang said:
By "wrong" view, I'm referring to the shentong-rangtong divide. Apparently, certain schools of Tibetan Buddhism favor one over the other. And apparently, people practitioners from both sides have become enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
It is because the "view" in Vajrayāna is not a result of intellectual analysis, it is experientially based on the third and fourth empowerments/direct introduction/pointing out instructions.

So, from this perspective, it really does not matter much what your post-equipoise intellectual view may be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
They did not know it was from the Buddha's life. If they had, they would have excluded it.

Grigoris said:
You are assuming they did not know it.  Given the amount of intellectual cross-fertilisation that existed in the region my assumption would be that they did know it was the life of Buddha but they changed names and identities to protect the innocent.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is completely unlikely. Please read the history of this.

Grigoris said:
The fact that they considered it important enough to include it in their narrative shows the value they attached to it.

Malcolm wrote:
I understand it as a dis of Buddhists and Buddhism. Your mileage may very.


Grigoris said:
I would hardly call Kalacakra's description of all the leading patriarchs of the Abrahamic religions respectful in anyway.
I also fail to see the relevance of this statement.

Malcolm wrote:
According to you, it should be AOK, since it is in someones religious book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: One Upsmanship places on DW
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
How about favorite oneupmanship players?  I nominate thee, Malcolm.

Malcolm wrote:
Glad I rate as one of your favorites, Nick.

Anonymous X said:
Malcolm, since you put yourself in the position of arbiter of these things so often with your one line posts that usually make a statement but not much of a real explanation, it's hard to wrap my head around most things you post except the most rudimentary responses of yes and no. If you're going to act as a teacher, which your title supposedly says you are, I'm not seeing much compassionate response to the ignorance of many of us. Teachers are often inspirations. They act with benevolence and caring. I would take a page out of Meido's book and try for a more balanced response in posting.

Malcolm wrote:
1) I am not the arbiter of anything. 2) Who said I am acting as a teacher? 3) Meido is Meido and Malcolm is Malcolm. Just accept it. This is not a beauty contest. You're kind of new around here so I guess it is taking you a little while to acclimatize to the altitude.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But they has no idea the story of Baarlam and Josaphat was in fact based on the Buddha's life.

Grigoris said:
So what?  The point is that they identified the positive characteristics/message in the tale of the Buddha's life and considered it important enough to make it pert of their canon.

Malcolm wrote:
They did not know it was from the Buddha's life. If they had, they would have excluded it.

Grigoris said:
I don't see how being an Avatar of Vishnu could possibly be disrespectful.  Followers of Vishnu worship his avatars because their actions were expressions of the will of their god.  How is that disrespectful???

Malcolm wrote:
it is disrespectful, for example, because it is clearly a political narrative penned at the expense of Buddhists. On the other hand, when people call for infidels and heretics to be slaughtered because their god tells them too, I guess that is not disrespectful either. Onward Christian Warriors!

Grigoris said:
Buddha fooled the Asura, Parashurama destroyed the greedy Kshatriya clans, Vamana vanquished the demon king Bali after he abused his powers and starts to destroy the universe, etc...  Isn't Vishnu's tenth avatar the Kalki that features as one of the saviours of humanity, and bringer of the Golden Age, in the Kalachakra?

Malcolm wrote:
Kalacakra definitely uses the scheme of the ten avatars of Vishnu for its own purposes.

I would hardly call Kalacakra's description of all the leading patriarchs of the Abrahamic religions respectful in anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Jiddu Krishnamurti
Content:
Grigoris said:
The Buddha Shakyamuni is also considered an Avatar of Vishnu, a Christian Saint in Orthodox Christianity and Catholicism (St Josaphat), etc...  So why would it seem strange that a "non-Buddhist" would show respect for the Buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
But they has no idea the story of Baarlam and Josaphat was in fact based on the Buddha's life.

As an avatar, it is hardly a respectful thing — Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu sent to deceive the Asuras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Interaction with spirits
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
How does TB view the spirits of a  given religion like Yemoja for example?
I assume they may just be considered worldy beings, not worthy of refuge but may be helpful in particular situations

Malcolm wrote:
They are worldly, so, use care.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: One Upsmanship places on DW
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Great thread, but I think we should use gender-neutral language, i.e. 'one-uppersonship" etc.





Malcolm wrote:
Nice move. We have to unclude this in the PC strategy guide.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 17th, 2017 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: One Upsmanship places on DW
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Glad I rate as one of your favorites, Nick.

Nicholas Weeks said:
As 'one of' ?  Come now, you know you are The One.

conebeckham said:
What should we call this particular strategy?


Malcolm wrote:
Ironic flattery.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: One Upsmanship places on DW
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
How about favorite oneupmanship players?  I nominate thee, Malcolm.

Malcolm wrote:
Glad I rate as one of your favorites, Nick.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: How is this not Advaita?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
SMCJ, you are just so relative.

smcj said:
Well yes, and proudly so. 40 years ago I figured out that if on the ultimate level there is nothing to be done then I need not concern myself with it. But since I don't like suffering it was/is important for me to focus my attention on the relative. Like, you could not even be in the same place with nonduality at the same time.
I've always understood nonduality to be how things actually are. If so, how is it possible to be apart from it again? What a loser.
I'm 62 and still doing NgonDro. So guilty as charged.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, then there is the "irony is lost on you play."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 11:22 PM
Title: One Upsmanship places on DW
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Over on another https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25540&start=20#p388058, I identified a common oneupmanship play in the constant game of "Dharma" oneupmanship that goes on here at DW.

Please use this space to share your favorite oneupmanship plays and strategies here.

Possible themes for discussion

The nonduality play

The humblebrag play

etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: How is this not Advaita?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
An addendum, the other oneupmanship play, though more rarely seen, is the "speak from your own experience" play. This play is designed to shut down any all discussion whatsoever, because most people are not so foolish as to say things like, "Yeah man, I am so totally sure my samadhi has destroyed all my afflictions because that is my experience, man."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: How is this not Advaita?
Content:
smcj said:
...so it won't happen.
Promise?

Malcolm wrote:
SMCJ, you are just so relative. Like, you could not even be in the same place with nonduality at the same time. You are also so totally cognizable, absolutely subject to madhyamaka analysis. Sheesh. What a loser.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: If everyone has buddha nature...
Content:
smcj said:
Buddha Nature is a popular translation of "Tathagatagarbha". From Wiki:

Malcolm wrote:
In fact it is a translation of buddhagarbha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: How is this not Advaita?
Content:
smcj said:
It is always fun to watch the ultimate oneupsmanship game on DW which always ends in the stalemate of ultimate truth.
I look forward to the time, probably soon, when I can quote that back to you.

Malcolm wrote:
Time is empty, so it won't happen, and even if it does happen, it won't be real. And even you do quote it back to me, I will comfortable in the knowledge it is all just your proliferation, far away from the meaning of nonduality, truth, Jesus, the Akashic record, and the advent of Lord Maitreya (who, I am reliably informed, works as a quant for Morgan Stanley).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: How is this not Advaita?
Content:
Astus said:
"To say that the mind is rattled and the nature is composed is the view of other ways; to say that the nature is clear and deep and the form shifts and moves is the view of other ways. The study of the mind and study of the nature on the way of the buddha are not like this. The practice of the mind and practice of the nature on the way of the buddha are not equivalent to the other ways. The clarification of the mind and the clarification of the nature on the way of the buddha, the other ways have no share in."
(Dogen: https://web.stanford.edu/group/scbs/sztp3/translations/shobogenzo/translations/sesshin_sessho/translation.html )


Malcolm wrote:
Excellent case in point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: How is this not Advaita?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is always fun to watch the ultimate oneupsmanship game on DW which always ends in the stalemate of ultimate truth.

Such conversations always begin with person A giving a perfectly sensible and rational proposition from the perspective of conventional truth. Person B then seems absolutely compelled to blow up the former's statement by invoking some principle they regard as ultimate such as emptiness, nonduality, freedom from extremes, to show that person A's proposition is invalid. It is really funny and really pathetic at the same time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: Entry into gcod
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no specific empowerment for this chö text.

Khechara said:
Thank you for the information!

michaelb said:
Probably a good idea to receive Yumka Dechen Gyalmo empowerment, though. There's only a peaceful dakini (Dechen Gyalmo) and wrathful dakini (Sengedongma) empowerment in LN, and other practices  (like Tara, maybe) rely on those.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you just need to receive direct introduction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Western geshes and khenpos
Content:
Virgo said:
Malcolm is one of the few people who hold the distinguished title of Loppon.

Kevin

Adamantine said:
What is the difference between loppon and khenpo?

I know a loppon who has a very limited breadth of knowledge, I think it was just an honorary title I guess. . or maybe it acknowledges their competence and capacity in a particular focus of Dharma practice and study, rather than a wide one. I think Khenpo usually indicates someone with a vast breadth of knowledge in the Dharma, that's why I am asking.. never been clear on the meaning of loppon.

Virgo said:
It means the Tibetan for acharya.

Kevin


Malcolm wrote:
I have met some pretty stupid khenpos...there are some who are really just business khenpos.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 16th, 2017 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Selfhood between births and karma
Content:
pothigai said:
The assertion that only animals and humans forget their past lives is based on the Abhidharma, which I would suppose is considered to be a authoritative source for such an assertion in the context of Buddhist discourse.

boda said:
I just downloaded the manual of Abhidhamma from buddhanet.net. There's not a single instance of 'clairvoyant' contained within it.

Malcolm wrote:
The term in Pali is Abhiññā:

Abhiññā1 (f.) [fr. abhi + jñā, see jānāti]. Rare in the older texts. It appears in two contexts. Firstly, certain conditions are said to conduce (inter alia) to serenity, to special knowledge (abhiññā), to special wisdom, and to Nibbāna. These conditions precedent are the Path (S v.421 = Vin i.10 = S iv.331), the Path + best knowledge and full emancipation (A v.238), the Four Applications of Mindfulness (S v.179) and the Four Steps to Iddhi (S. v.255). The contrary is three times stated; wrong -- doing, priestly superstitions, and vain speculation do not conduce to abhiññā and the rest (D iii.131; A iii.325 sq. and v.216). Secondly, we find a list of what might now be called psychic powers. It gives us 1, Iddhi (cp. levitation); 2, the Heavenly Ear (cp. clairaudience); 3, knowing others' thoughts (cp. thought -- reading); 4, recollecting one's previous births; 5, knowing other people's rebirths; 6, certainty of emancipation already attained (cp. final assurance). This list occurs only at D iii.281 as a list of abhiññās. It stands there in a sort of index of principal subjects appended at the end of the Dīgha, and belongs therefore to the very close of the Nikāya period. But it is based on older material. Descriptions of each of the six, not called abhiññā's, and interspersed by expository sentences or paragraphs, are found at D i.89 sq. (trsl. Dial. i.89 sq.); M i.34 (see Buddh. Suttas, 210 sq.); A i.255, 258 = iii.17, 280 = iv.421. At S i.191; Vin ii.16; Pug 14, we have the adj. chaḷabhiññā ("endowed with the 6 Apperceptions"). At S ii.216 we have five, and at S v.282, 290 six abhiññā's mentioned in glosses to the text. And at S ii.217, 222 a bhikkhu claims the 6 powers. See also M ii.11; iii.96. It is from these passages that the list at D iii. has been made up, and called abhiññā's.

Afterwards the use of the word becomes stereotyped. In the Old Commentaries (in the Canon), in the later ones (of the 5th cent. a.d.), and in medieval and modern Pāli, abhiññā, nine times out ten, means just the powers given in this list. Here and there we find glimpses of the older, wider meaning of special, supernormal power of apperception and knowledge to be acquired by long training in life aud thought. See Nd1 108, 328 (expln. of ñāṇa); Nd2 s. v. and N0. 466; Ps i.35; ii.156, 189; Vbh 228, 334; Pug 14; Nett 19, 20; Miln 342; Vism 373; Mhvs xix.20; DA i.175; DhA ii.49; iv.30; Sdhp 228, 470, 482. See also the discussion in the Cpd. 60 sp., 224 sq. For the phrase sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā and abhiññā -- vosita see abhijānāti. The late phrase yathɔ abhiññaṃ means ʻ as you please, according to liking, as you like ʼ, J v.365 (= yathādhippāyaṃ yathāruciṃ C.). For abhiññā in the use of an adj. (˚abhiñña) see abhiñña


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 7:36 PM
Title: Re: Interaction with spirits
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
... And of course, confessions are a very important part of the Sang rite; absent, for example in Chö.

Quay said:
Perhaps in some, but certainly not all? For instance in a widely practiced medium-length Thröma practice one finds the confession:
The karma, delusion and non-virtue of all my lives,
I acknowledge and confess with intense remorse.
Or am I misunderstanding the remarks about sang, confession and such as regards offerings to the four classes?

Malcolm wrote:
That is a deity yoga sadhana, not the four feasts per se. Of course, in the preliminaries of a given cho rite there might be a standard confession in the seven limb framework, but in the main body of the practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 7:33 PM
Title: Re: all emotions are pain?
Content:
Grigoris said:
You are avoiding my question, and I am not engaging in nitpicking, I am trying to understand your opinion.

I am not engaging in judgement of others, I am engaging in this line of questioning because I find MYSELF sometimes engaging with non-afflicted objects in an afflicted manner.

Which is why your statement comes as a surprise to me:  not on the basis of my experience of the actions of others, but on the basis of my own experience.


Malcolm wrote:
If one's "practice" is involved with the eight worldly dharmas, it is not sublime Dharma practice, and in the words of the Kadampa seven point mind training, one should not reduce gods to demons.

If one's set one's activities with the right motivation, how can they lead to anything other than the development of the 37 adjuncts to awakening, beginning with the five indriyas: faith, diligence, mindfulness, samadhi and wisdom?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: Tersar
Content:
Punya said:
Thanks for the extra info.

I'm still interested in why some recent terma collections are known as tersar and some are seemingly not.

Malcolm wrote:
Gsar means new or recent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: all emotions are pain?
Content:
Grigoris said:
If an un-afflicted object can give rise to an afflicted state, then why would the reaction to the object (an object in it's own right) not be capable of giving rise to an afflicted state?

I mean surely one can approach circling a stupa as a possession:  "My circumambulation."

Or circumambulation can be practiced for self-centred purposes.

Etc...


Malcolm wrote:
Even the Buddha talked about "his robes, his sangha." Conventional markers of identity and possession are not necessarily afflictive.

The point of practicing Dharma is to cause positive path dharmas to arise in the mind, and transforming afflictive positive mental factors into nonafflictive positive mental factors.

I really have no idea why anyone practicing Dharma would practice for any other reason. Certainly there are people who appear to be practicing sublime Dharma who are in fact practicing the eight worldly Dharmas, but what is the point of dwelling on the mistakes of others?

You initially brought up this unqualified example:
I can, for example, have a pleasurable feeling while circling a stupa and then get attached to the action and feeling, so that when I am not circling a stupa I feel distress (or I feel a desire/need to experience the positive feeling again and this brings me distress.
I responded to your example with the assumption that you were presenting in good faith an example of sublime Dharma practice that somehow could lead to suffering. Now I find myself in another exchange with you that seems to be heading nowhere but to pointless nitpicking over what are, from my perspective, needless trivialities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 2:06 AM
Title: Re: all emotions are pain?
Content:
Grigoris said:
Let's try this from a different angle then:  Would you agree that an un-afflicted object (a Buddha-rupa) for example, can elicit  an afflicted mental state?

Malcolm wrote:
If approached as a possession, yes — which turns it into a zag bcas, a contaminated thing. If approached with devotion, no.

However you used the example of a Dharma practice (circumambulation), which is why I responded the way I did.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 15th, 2017 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: An interesting series of articles on Islamic mysticism...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is very likely one of the best academic treatments of the subject: Mystical Dimensions of Islam by Annemarie Schimmel. Her Wiki page is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annemarie_Schimmel

"Even prominent Sufis acknowledged her as one of the foremost experts on their history and tradition."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: TODAY'S MYSTERY OBJECT
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Reminds me more of Southeast Asian depictions of the Garuda

Malcolm wrote:
It's a Makara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Interaction with spirits
Content:


Vasana said:
Would you mind elaborating on the various ways of going about clearing karmic debts if sang offering can sometimes be problematic?

Malcolm wrote:
Contemplation is the best way to remove all problems.

Vasana said:
True, problems and immediate threats subside naturally with contemplation just as the weapons of maras transformed into flowers when Buddha was close to [re]awakening.

But what about at other times when the strength of contemplation is not so unwavering due to various conditions? Or when all of the contemplation engaged with thus far has not rendered all debts clear? Or when you want to 'make peace' and make amends by addressing the particular debtor[s] more directly/personally ?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no chance you can ever clear these debts completely. We have been in samsara since beginningless time. There is absolutely no way we can eliminate all those obscurations by any methods of relative purification.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Interaction with spirits
Content:


Mantrik said:
Ah, perhaps it is just this sadhana then, or I misinterpreted:

''NGÖN GYI LEN CHAK TAM CHE CHANG GYUR CHIK
May all my karmic debts from the past be purified!
DA TA GYÜ LA MI NE TOL LO SHAK
In the present so that they do not remain in my mind-stream, I confess them!
MA ONG DRIB PE KHOR LOR MA GYUR CHIK
And in the future, may I never be drawn into the wheel of obscuration!''

Malcolm wrote:
Karmic debts are not just to the eight classes. The eight classes manifest as demons rather than gods because of such karmic debts; but that is not the whole extent of karmic debts. There are also being who ignore us because of karmic debt, etc., who will not help us, even if they do not actively harm.

Vasana said:
Would you mind elaborating on the various ways of going about clearing karmic debts if sang offering can sometimes be problematic?

Malcolm wrote:
Contemplation is the best way to remove all problems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 11:16 PM
Title: Re: all emotions are pain?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I'm beginning to think that all discussions between Malcolm and Grigoris are pain.

Malcolm wrote:
Interactions with human beings always carry that risk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: all emotions are pain?
Content:
Grigoris said:
Didn't say it was, I said the attachment to it is.  Attachment can occur to a pleasant feeling arising form an non-afflicted object too.

I can, for example, have a pleasurable feeling while circling a stupa and then get attached to the action and feeling, so that when I am not circling a stupa I feel distress (or I feel a desire/need to experience the positive feeling again and this brings me distress.

Malcolm wrote:
No, circling a stupa creates path dharmas. They will never result in suffering. They may be conditioned, but they are not contaminated.

Grigoris said:
You are quite obviously not reading what I am saying, so I am not going to attempt to engage you any further.

Malcolm wrote:
That pleasurable feeling is a path dharma. It will never bring you distress, and the desire to feel that again is in fact a positive mental factor called "faith." The distress at not doing something virtuous is another path dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: all emotions are pain?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That depends on whether that pleasant emotion arises for an afflictive object or not.  The pleasant emotion is not in itself painful.

Grigoris said:
Didn't say it was, I said the attachment to it is.  Attachment can occur to a pleasant feeling arising form an non-afflicted object too.

I can, for example, have a pleasurable feeling while circling a stupa and then get attached to the action and feeling, so that when I am not circling a stupa I feel distress (or I feel a desire/need to experience the positive feeling again and this brings me distress.

Malcolm wrote:
No, circling a stupa creates path dharmas. They will never result in suffering. They may be conditioned, but they are not contaminated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: all emotions are pain?
Content:
Grigoris said:
True, but ultimately even "positive" and pleasurable emotions can lead to suffering as they (in most cases) can lead to clinging and attachment to the pleasurable state.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on whether that pleasant emotion arises for an afflictive object or not. The pleasant emotion is not in itself painful.

In any case, painful is also a poor translation of dukkha.

tiagolps said:
What translation would you give to the seal?

Malcolm wrote:
"All afflicted phenomena are suffering."

This refers to both material as well as mental states since all conditioned things are either afflicted or afflictive, apart from path dharmas. Pain is not really a good word for dukkha since pain means "Middle English (in the sense ‘suffering inflicted as punishment for an offense’): from Old French peine, from Latin poena ‘penalty,’ later ‘pain.’"

Suffer means "Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French suffrir, from Latin sufferre, from sub- ‘from below’ + ferre ‘to bear.’" When we look at Tibetan, it is sdug bsngal; sdug means in this context, means misery; ngal ba means exhausted or difficult. Thus we could gloss sdug bsngal as "exhausting misery."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: Tersar
Content:
Punya said:
TerNying meaning termas in the Nyingma tradition I suppose. Thank you, that takes care of my "new and recent" question. Any other thoughts or comments?


Malcolm wrote:
Gter rnying means old termas. All gter mas are by definition rNying ma since they are all connected with the legends surrounding the transmission of Dharma to Tibet by Padmsambhava, Vimalamitra, Vairocana, the king and the 25 five disciples.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: Selfhood between births and karma
Content:


Boomerang said:
It is part of their karmic condition.


Malcolm wrote:
It has more to do with their specific mode of birth. Hell beings, pretas, devas and asuras, and bardo beings are all born by means of apparitional births. Thus they are all clairvoyant. All animals are born either via eggs, heat and moisture, or wombs. Humans of course are born from wombs.

Boomerang said:
Thank you Malcolm. Where does this teaching come from? I remembered hearing this fact about womb-birth versus apparitional birth somewhere, but because I don't know the source I didn't mention it in my previous posts.


Malcolm wrote:
Abhidharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 7:43 PM
Title: Re: all emotions are pain?
Content:
Odin said:
What does that mean that all emotions are pain?

Malcolm wrote:
Emotion is poor translation of kleṣa, i.e. affliction. A kleṣa is a painful mental state. Not all emotions are painful.

Grigoris said:
True, but ultimately even "positive" and pleasurable emotions can lead to suffering as they (in most cases) can lead to clinging and attachment to the pleasurable state.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on whether that pleasant emotion arises for an afflictive object or not. The pleasant emotion is not in itself painful.

In any case, painful is also a poor translation of dukkha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 10:50 AM
Title: Re: all emotions are pain?
Content:
Odin said:
What does that mean that all emotions are pain?

Malcolm wrote:
Emotion is poor translation of kleṣa, i.e. affliction. A kleṣa is a painful mental state. Not all emotions are painful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 10:42 AM
Title: Re: Tersar
Content:
Punya said:
I've read that Tersar (Wylie: gter gsar) means a new or recently-revealed collection of treasure teachings from one treasure revealer (new and recent being relative terms) and have heard of the Dudjom Tersar and the Chokling Tersar.

But I'm aware there are other terma collections around, such as those by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, but I don't see them being called a Tersar. What constitutes a Tersar -is it a large volume of termas from one treasure revealer or does it have something to do with how widely they are taught?


Malcolm wrote:
All tersars become ternyings eventually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Selfhood between births and karma
Content:
boda said:
Why do only humans and animals forget their past lives?

Boomerang said:
It is part of their karmic condition.


Malcolm wrote:
It has more to do with their specific mode of birth. Hell beings, pretas, devas and asuras, and bardo beings are all born by means of apparitional births. Thus they are all clairvoyant. All animals are born either via eggs, heat and moisture, or wombs. Humans of course are born from wombs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 14th, 2017 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Lhasa said:
The thing is, they are long-time tantric practitioners, have siddhis, know all about how to use transmission links for negative activities and can easily counter my practice. I don't need practice, I need intervention.  And I don't have a teacher who would do that.

Malcolm wrote:
You just need a repelling rite like Simhamukha. If you do this practice, then whatever negativities they send will bounce off of you and back at them.

Lhasa said:
Ok, and what about the negativities already received and manifesting? I've done Simhamukha and Yamantaka for  several years, it only seemed to make things worse. But I also had a naga problem at the same time, and that has been pacified because someone stepped forward to help with that. Maybe those practices will work better now. Things like shaktipat do not just go away, they need to be expelled. Thank you

Malcolm wrote:
I cannot give you a diagnosis. I can make general recommendations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Lhasa said:
A former student of the 16th Karmapa, now an Advaita-Vedanta pujari huckster, and some Kashmir Shaivite vampires. Old Shiva-running-a-muck-ananda....among others.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Sounds like a Bollywood remake of a Hammer classic. Seriously though, has your teacher recommended any practices? Have you thought about Simhamukha?

Lhasa said:
The thing is, they are long-time tantric practitioners, have siddhis, know all about how to use transmission links for negative activities and can easily counter my practice. I don't need practice, I need intervention.  And I don't have a teacher who would do that.

Malcolm wrote:
You just need a repelling rite like Simhamukha. If you do this practice, then whatever negativities they send will bounce off of you and back at them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Making Sense of Tantric Buddhism by Christian Wedemeyer
Content:
tingdzin said:
I have just read this book, and if anyone is interested in the various theories about the "origin" of tantra/ Vajrayana, this is a must-read. Even though I don't agree with everything the author says, he clearly shows the flaws in some other theories.

Malcolm wrote:
Christian Wedemeyer is an extremely nice person with whom I had the pleasure of spending a few hours over glasses of wine at the last Tsadra translation conference. He is very bright and knowledgable. His book is definitely worth the read. It stands as one of the best pieces of critical writing about western scholarship on Vajrayāna to date.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 8:28 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
pael said:
Who can do it? Whose job is it?


Malcolm wrote:
Someone who feels motivated to go there and tame this being, and more importantly, has the capacity to do so.

pael said:
Where this being resides?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, generally, in the are where it frequents, in this case the Island of Lesbos, where Greg makes his home.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: Illuminating Quotes by Malcolm Namdrol-la
Content:
smcj said:
From: "Stream-entry in a Mahayana context"

Malcolm wrote:
Nirvana in Mahāyāna is nonabiding nirvana, meaning that buddhas are active in the world and have infinite emanations.

ItsRaining said:
Since Buddhas (Or Rather Dharmakayas) have infinite emanations as stated here and in the Brahma Net Sutra

"Now, I, Vairocana Buddha, am sitting atop a lotus pedestal; on a thousand flowers surrounding me are a thousand Sakyamuni Buddhas. Each flower supports a hundred million worlds; in each world a Sakyamuni Buddha appears. All are seated beneath a Bodhi-tree, all simultaneously attain Buddhahood. All these innumerable Buddhas have Vairocana as their original body."

Why does each world system only have one Buddha? Why are is there not a Buddha every generation to uphold the right teachings and keep the Dharma Wheel spinning?

Malcolm wrote:
There are. They are however not supreme nirmanakāyas, but they are nirmanakāyas nevertheless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Grigoris said:
So do it.


Malcolm wrote:
Not my job.

pael said:
Who can do it? Whose job is it?


Malcolm wrote:
Someone who feels motivated to go there and tame this being, and more importantly, has the capacity to do so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 11:33 AM
Title: Re: Meditative concentration on impermanence (for example)
Content:
prsvrnc said:
I don't understand how it would be possible to obtain meditative concentration on many objects because those objects aren't solid or stable.  Do they have a particular quality that is single... that one focuses on?

Lobsang Yeshi said:
You start the meditation session by working out your lines of reasoning related to the topic. The goal is to dispel any doubts you might be harboring about the the truth of the teaching. So using your example topic of impermanence, you could start the session by asking yourself, is there anything that might actually be permanent? Or, is there anything that I treat as if it is permanent, without consciously realizing that I'm doing this? Whatever objects come up in response to these or similar questions, analyze them, searching for permanence, and use logic to prove to yourself that in actuality they are not permanent, and that the permanence you suspected might be there is actually illusory. You need to get good at seeking out genuine points of doubt and be honest about the persuasiveness of your internal reasoning, since this won't work if you just go through the motions as a sort of kabuki theater in your head.

If your analytical meditation is successful, at some point you will experience a strong feeling of certainty regarding the truth of the teaching on impermanence. This feeling of certainty is what you want to stabilize and hold as your concentration object for as long as you can. You are right that this is not a very stable object, and probably would not be the best choice to use to develop calm abiding, but the primary purpose of this practice is to increase your understanding of the teachings and conviction that they are truthful and beneficial.

Anonymous X said:
The object of meditation is only a provisional step to calm and gather the focus on mind. Any object of meditation is either let go of or dissolves as cognizance of impermanence increases. Certainty, or any other object in the field of cognition gives way to total presence. Conceptual and non-conceptual are both seen as impermanent. Nothing is held on to. Holding on is a reification of a concept. This is deep habit energy. I'm not even sure that samadhis really touch this.



Malcolm wrote:
Depends on the samadhi and who has engaged in it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 11:09 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
MiphamFan said:
The early Christian version of hell seems to be quite different from later versions.

Valhalla sounds like a Buddhist hell too.

Malcolm wrote:
Valhalla sounds like the Asura realm.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 11:09 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Read again my post! I use the term 'underwolrd'!

Malcolm wrote:
The concept of hell/underworld is very similar among Indo-Euopean peoples in general. The idea of hells with levels is likely ported from Buddhism through Islam to Christianity.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
How? Did not Christianity predate Islam?You mean a later influence of Islam on Christianity?

Malcolm wrote:
Obviously.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
How about ideas of salvation that were already part of Greco-roman world, like the ones posited by mystery cults, like Eleusinian Mysteries, that were probably even older then Buddhism?! Orphism being a contemporary maybe. But do you believe in the theories that connects it to Buddhism and Vedism?! Or others that connect Shiva to Dionysios?

Malcolm wrote:
What about them?

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Also, wasn't the Aenead (with the descent to 'Inferno' and all else) based on the Greek Homeric accounts?

Malcolm wrote:
The Aeneid is a literary composition based on a minor character, a Trojan, who shows up in the Illiad and about whom there were independent legends. While certainly the Illiad influenced it, for the most part it was based on Cato the Elder's histories of the founding of Rome.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
The name Hades from 5th BC was already widely used to designate the actual place of the dead, people and the Mysteries in particular preferring the use of the word 'Plouton' for the actual God!

Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't think so.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
The Idea of an underworld was also present in cultures in no way related to Indo-european ones. Like the Maya (xibalba) and Aztec. In both, like the ancient Greek, heaven was a reward to warriors and heroes! The Xibalba also had many levels, palaces and different places not unlike the Greco-Roman version!

Malcolm wrote:
Quite irrelevant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 13th, 2017 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As always Greg, you are right, and everyone else is so, so wrong about everything. Have fun on your little self-made island of righteousness.

Grigoris said:
Is it really so hard for you to admit that you do not have the same understanding of the nuances of the Greek language that a Greek does?  .

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not what I am referring to. I am happy for you that you have a superior understanding of Modern Greek.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 6:58 PM
Title: Re: Stream-entry in a Mahāyāna context
Content:
Anonymous X said:
No one is born and no one who dies according to Mahayana teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Ultimately, but the teaching of Mahāyāna is two truths...

aflatun said:
Thank you all for the responses, and with regards to what Malcolm just said, I was asking about the conventional nature of Buddhahood in Mahayana (I hope that's appropriate terminology?).

I somewhat regret making the comment about controversy within Theravada about Nibbana, as I know Arahantship from the point of view of Mahayana is not Buddhahood, I was just making a point (poorly executed), and was not interested in delving into that.

Its Buddhahood in Mahayana I was interested in, vs. the "lower stages." Thank you all for the references also, plenty to read up on!

metta

Malcolm wrote:
Nirvana in Mahāyāna is nonabiding nirvana, meaning that buddhas are active in the world and have infinite emanations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 6:51 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Grigoris said:
careful about the use of the term "hell" when discussing the after-life in pre-Christian European and North-African religions.  Hades is often confounded as Hell, but existence in Hades had nothing to do with the Christian notion of Hell as a place of eternal suffering for sins.

Malcolm wrote:
Hell, whether it is a mere pit in the ground that is cold and lifeless, or a place of many levels as in Buddhadharma, is no fun.

Hades was a god, not a place, until Christians began to use the term Hades for what they understood as Hell. Early Greek-speaking Christians referred to what we call hell as κόλασις. The word Hades used as a synonym of Hell really only enters English around 1600.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Read again my post! I use the term 'underwolrd'!

Malcolm wrote:
The concept of hell/underworld is very similar among Indo-Euopean peoples in general. The idea of hells with levels is likely ported from Buddhism through Islam to Christianity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 6:31 PM
Title: Re: Identifying Vajragarbha / Dorjé Nyingpo
Content:
Palzang Jangchub said:
Can anyone help a friend and i better identify Vajragarbha (Dorjé Nyingpo)?  He's quite early on in the lineage for the Hevajra Tantra, but we're not aware of who he truly is and what he's known for/associated with.

Any assistance from the more learned is much appreciated!


Malcolm wrote:
He is the tenth stage bodhisattva who received the Hevajra Tantra and wrote a commentary on it. Other than that, there is no biography.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 6:29 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Grigoris said:
So when it was quoted by Matthew, in his version of the bible, as the words of Jesus in reference to the "unmerciful" or άσπλαχνοι, its meaning was rather different.  It was more a reference to a type of eternal jail, rather than an eternal torment.

Malcolm wrote:
As always Greg, you are right, and everyone else is so, so wrong about everything. Have fun on your little self-made island of righteousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 10:11 AM
Title: Re: Stream-entry in a Mahāyāna context
Content:
Anonymous X said:
No one is born and no one who dies according to Mahayana teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Ultimately, but the teaching of Mahāyāna is two truths...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 10:09 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
But their view of afterlife drew heavily from Greek traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
This is quite overstated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 9:46 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Roman Religion was heavily influenced by the Greek one, not only directly but also through it's Etruscan antencedent. The underwold even emcopassed an 'paradise' or the Elysium, after it they could even reach the Isle of the Blessed, they usually reached this through rebirth.

Avernus was once also a part of Magna Graecia!

Malcolm wrote:
Roman religion was quite distinct from Greek religion in fact. I recommend you read Archaic Roman Religion by George Dumézil.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
I agree, in many aspects yes, in others no! Ancient world religions tended to be quite syncretic then. In case of Roman Religion some traditions came from Estruscan Religion, others from Greece( Bacchic rites), Egypt(Isis) or Asia (Cybele) and many places all over the Empire!

As I said, Cumae and Averno were once part of Magna Graecia before the Empire, so it was born within a Greek cultural setting.

Malcolm wrote:
While the Romans certainly adopted many cults external to Roman culture especially during and after the expansion of the Empire, the essentials of Roman religion were quite unique to Romans.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 9:43 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Grigoris said:
careful about the use of the term "hell" when discussing the after-life in pre-Christian European and North-African religions.  Hades is often confounded as Hell, but existence in Hades had nothing to do with the Christian notion of Hell as a place of eternal suffering for sins.

Malcolm wrote:
Hell, whether it is a mere pit in the ground that is cold and lifeless, or a place of many levels as in Buddhadharma, is no fun.

Hades was a god, not a place, until Christians began to use the term Hades for what they understood as Hell. Early Greek-speaking Christians referred to what we call hell as κόλασις. The word Hades used as a synonym of Hell really only enters English around 1600.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 9:32 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Roman Religion was heavily influenced by the Greek one, not only directly but also through it's Etruscan antencedent. The underwold even emcopassed an 'paradise' or the Elysium, after it they could even reach the Isle of the Blessed, they usually reached this through rebirth.

Avernus was once also a part of Magna Graecia!

Malcolm wrote:
Roman religion was quite distinct from Greek religion in fact. I recommend you read Archaic Roman Religion by George Dumézil.

In any case, as we can often see here in threads, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 8:43 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But we are talking about Romans...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avernus

Avernus refers to a a volcanic lake west of Naples that would kill birds who flew over it, and was regarded as the entrance to Hell.

Grigoris said:
Again:  careful about the use of the term "hell" when discussing the after-life in pre-Christian European and North-African religions.  Hades is often confounded as Hell, but existence in Hades had nothing to do with the Christian notion of Hell as a place of eternal suffering for sins.  Ancient Greeks also believed in reincarnation (cf references to reincarnation in Plato's Republic), so...

Ancient Greeks did not really have a concept of sin, for them the concept of Ύβρις was more predominant, a word which has come to denote blasphemy in Modern Greek, but which had more of the meaning of ACTS that insulted the Gods (and could thus invoke their ire), in Ancient Greece.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Question: have you read any of the classic literature of Chö?

Grigoris said:
Yes I have.  That is what has lead me to believe that the goal of Chod is to overcome grasping to the sense of self, free oneself from the fear that this produces and realise the true (ie selfless nature) of all phenomenon.  ie It is geared towards the Perfection of Wisdom.


Malcolm wrote:
You missed one point, in Chod the way you identify this sense of self is to deliberately induce fear. Fear makes the sense of self stand out in bold relief.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 5:49 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Grigoris said:
As for Virgil:  Virgil would have been a practitioner of Ancient Roman religion.  If the Ancient Roman religion is anything like the Ancient Greek (and Zeus/Dias/Jupiter knows they stole large portions of it and rebranded it as Roman), then there is no hell, per se.  There is only Hades.  Hades is not hell.

Malcolm wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avernus

Avernus refers to a a volcanic lake west of Naples that would kill birds who flew over it, and was regarded as the entrance to Hell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 5:44 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Grigoris said:
Excuse me if I am wrong, but isn't the whole idea of Chod to realise that there is no harmer, harmed or harm?

Malcolm wrote:
There is considerably more to it than that. It is not just a pretty rite with nice haunting melodies. When you are inviting guests with the kangling, all kinds of formless spirits come. When one goes to a wild place ( gnyan sa ), one is deliberating trying to invite guests to test one's sense of fear and dread, the surest sign of self-grasping. Question: have you read any of the classic literature of Chö? Machig says:
If one goes to wild places and is not harmed by ghosts ('dre),
the conceited mind that arises is the māra of exhilaration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Grigoris said:
By Protestant Christians.  Which is to be expected from a bunch of anally-retentive tight-fisted pricks.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually the saying begins with a Cistercian, Bernard of Clairvaux, who wrote: " L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs."

Even your man Karl Marx used it, "Our capitalist, who is at home in his vulgar economy, exclaims: “Oh! but I advanced my money for the express purpose of making more money.” The way to Hell is paved with good intentions, and he might just as easily have intended to make money, without producing at all."

DGA said:
Marx liked to use the truisms of bourgeois religion (particularly that of the English, corresponding more or less to the "protestant work ethic") as sticks with which to beat the capitalist.  hence "metaphysical subtleties and theological niceties" he finds in the commodity.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, since he was a bourgeois German, it makes sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, actually the saying begins with a Cistercian, Bernard of Clairvaux, who wrote: " L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs."

Grigoris said:
Well, I was brought up Eastern Orthodox and there was no mention of it.

Malcolm wrote:
That does not make it Protestant. Arguably, the saying in fact goes back to Virgil, "facilis descensus Averno," i.e., falling into hell is easy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or so it is said.

Grigoris said:
By Protestant Christians.  Which is to be expected from a bunch of anally-retentive tight-fisted pricks.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually the saying begins with a Cistercian, Bernard of Clairvaux, who wrote: " L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs."

Even your man Karl Marx used it, "Our capitalist, who is at home in his vulgar economy, exclaims: “Oh! but I advanced my money for the express purpose of making more money.” The way to Hell is paved with good intentions, and he might just as easily have intended to make money, without producing at all."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Lhasa said:
So my question with Sang and Chod is, my intent is to work on my karmic imprints, not duel with blazing demons, although if I must, I must. Is working within my own mind, with no intent to provoke any outer being, going to p*ss off worldly beings anyway? I suppose the ones actively attacking might object. Please don't tell me to ask my Lama, I don't have an available tantric teacher.

Grigoris said:
You can piss off anybody, doing any thing.

For example:  there are groups of "people" here in Greece that get pissed off if you tell them that you are helping refugees.

Should that stop you from doing something that is positively motivated?

Malcolm wrote:
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or so it is said.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
A lot of unintended consequences can result from making offerings to worldly beings. For example, there can be unintended consequences from making Sang offerings, sometimes fatal ones. But everyone thinks Sang offering are great, and never question the wisdom of making them in this or that place. But when one looks a little deeper, one discovers many stories of people who have mistakenly upset demons in a given area through doing Sang, through doing Chö, through doing Serkyem, etc. When you go and piss off some nāga for making an offering at the wrong time, or with the wrong incense for example, the effects may not hit you, because nagas strike out at random when they are annoyed — this is just one example.

Lhasa said:
This is the second time in the last couple months I've heard a warning about doing Sang. One of the Ligmincha lay teachers did a facebook live Sang ceremony and he said they had changed the text because the wording to the protectors was so strong. And if one could not follow through, if one 'didn't have the goods' to back up what was said, then very bad things could happen. And now here is Malcolm saying the same thing. So I'm not doing that practice anymore.
But at the time I did the Sang practice with the facebook live ceremony. Proper incense, mustard seeds etc., in my living room. What an amazing shift in energy inside the circle of mustard seeds! So there are now mustard seeds around the perimeter of every room, around the foundation outside and along the property lines.

So my question with Sang and Chod is, my intent is to work on my karmic imprints, not duel with blazing demons, although if I must, I must. Is working within my own mind, with no intent to provoke any outer being, going to p*ss off worldly beings anyway? I suppose the ones actively attacking might object. Please don't tell me to ask my Lama, I don't have an available tantric teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
I never said one should not do Sang. One just needs to be careful where one does Sang.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
humble.student said:
Is this Barcelona retreat going to be webcast openly? I couldn't find any indication on the melong or dzogchen.net website. Thanks!


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 12th, 2017 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Sources for yidam practices not requiring empowerment?
Content:
fckw said:
Are there any sutric deities commonly depicted in sexual union? I guess not, but just curious.

Malcolm wrote:
Zero. This does not mean however that deities like Avalokiteśvara and Mañjuśrī do not have consorts in higher tantra, but these are not supposed to be shown to ordinary people who lack empowerments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 11th, 2017 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: Sources for yidam practices not requiring empowerment?
Content:
fckw said:
I guess the follow-up question is then: Which deities are based on Sutras? Do you know of any good resources (books, articles etc.) giving an overview on the topic?

Malcolm wrote:
Principally Buddha Śākyamuni, Amitabha, Medicine Buddha; bodhisattvas such as Avalokiteśvara, Mañjuśrī, Samantabhadra; as well as the great mother, Prajñāpāramitā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 11th, 2017 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: cycles
Content:
Punya said:
Perhaps I could ask an even more basic question. What is a terma "cycle".


Malcolm wrote:
The term in Tibetan skor. Skor ba literally means "to turn." But in this usage, it refers to a class or group of things. The reason we often translate it as "cycle" is that it reflects the English usage of the term when it means "a complete set."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 11th, 2017 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Sources for yidam practices not requiring empowerment?
Content:
Grigoris said:
(tri,lung and wang).

Malcolm wrote:
Wang, lung, and tri.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 11th, 2017 at 9:07 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
You guys are silly.

Malcolm wrote:
says the silliest of them all...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 11th, 2017 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
DGA said:
so what is shamanism, exactly?

what would a shamanistic influence look like?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2017 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Vasana said:
Does anyone know if the retreat this weekend involves direct introduction/ transmission?

Malcolm wrote:
Anytime ChNN explains Ati Guru Yoga, this is exactly direct introduction. He has said this over and over again. ChNN always gives Dzogchen transmission in every retreat, none excepted.

Vasana said:
Thanks. I thought as much but wasn't certain. Just wanted to confirm for a friend who is wanting to participate.


Malcolm wrote:
Sure thing. This is a FAQ.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2017 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Vasana said:
Does anyone know if the retreat this weekend involves direct introduction/ transmission?

Malcolm wrote:
Anytime ChNN explains Ati Guru Yoga, this is exactly direct introduction. He has said this over and over again. ChNN always gives Dzogchen transmission in every retreat, none excepted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2017 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: cycles
Content:
HandsomeMonkeyking said:
It seems to me that longchen nyingtik is the most popular terma cycle. At least thats my impression by always seeing it written somewhere. I wonder if that assumption is wrong and what other cycles are there.

Malcolm wrote:
Most of the more popular treasure cycles benefitted from aristocratic or institutional patronage. For example, one reason LNT is so widespread, apart from its intrinsic merits, is that Jigme Lingpa was the guru of the daughter of the King of Derge, the Dagchens of Sakya, and so on. This kind of sponsership is not always responsible for the popularity of a given cycle however, case in point, Dudjom Tersar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2017 at 8:12 PM
Title: Re: Sources for yidam practices not requiring empowerment?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
By definition there is no yidam practice without empowerment. Yi dam is a translation of samādāna. Samādāna means to undertake a promise. One only receives a yi dam, a commitment, from a guru.

One may, out of devotion, choose to engage in a cycle of offerings and praises to any buddha or bodhisattva, including reciting their mantras/dhāranis which are found in sūtra. But this does not make this practice a yi dam or samādāna practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2017 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Grigoris said:
And my Dzogchen is too small in order for it to entered into a Dzogchen measuring contest!

treehuggingoctopus said:
Thank goodness Dzogchen enlargement pills are no longer merely a wet dream these days! Perfectly easy to apply and always readily available literally everywhere, too, provided one knows where to look!

dzogchungpa said:
I'm told it's not so much the size as the tsal that matters.

Malcolm wrote:
Think this has enough "tsal?"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 10th, 2017 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Yidam and mantra are boring. And not very shamanistic. Using nature and elements is very shamanistic, like color and light. Oooo

Grigoris said:
I neither identify as a shaman, nor do I consider Tibetan Buddhism "shamanistic" so I really don't have a horse in the race.

And my Dzogchen is too small in order for it to entered into a Dzogchen measuring contest!

Malcolm wrote:
The you have to call it Dzogchung.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


cloudburst said:
The implications of your statement are that Padmasambhava did not regard his main practice as the path. This makes no sense to me, could you clarify?

Malcolm wrote:
It was his main recitation practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Interaction with spirits
Content:


Mantrik said:
Confession of deeds in order to include them in the purification of karmic debt owed to all the classes?

Malcolm wrote:
No, just confession of deeds in general.

Mantrik said:
Ah, perhaps it is just this sadhana then, or I misinterpreted:

''NGÖN GYI LEN CHAK TAM CHE CHANG GYUR CHIK
May all my karmic debts from the past be purified!
DA TA GYÜ LA MI NE TOL LO SHAK
In the present so that they do not remain in my mind-stream, I confess them!
MA ONG DRIB PE KHOR LOR MA GYUR CHIK
And in the future, may I never be drawn into the wheel of obscuration!''

Malcolm wrote:
Karmic debts are not just to the eight classes. The eight classes manifest as demons rather than gods because of such karmic debts; but that is not the whole extent of karmic debts. There are also being who ignore us because of karmic debt, etc., who will not help us, even if they do not actively harm.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 6:51 PM
Title: Re: Interaction with spirits
Content:


Mantrik said:
Confession of deeds in order to include them in the purification of karmic debt owed to all the classes?

Malcolm wrote:
No, just confession of deeds in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 10:27 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen wikipedia article
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
I have recently been working on editing this article,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen

I have mostly been adding to section 3 "Conceptual background", drawing a lot from Buddhahood in this life and some books by Sam van Schaik.

However I am still somewhat of a beginner in this topic and I was wondering if you folks could take a look at this article and let me know what in this article needs to be fixed, or is just incorrect. Also is there any important material you feel is missing?

Malcolm wrote:
On thing I can tell you that the illustration titled "Illustration of the channels or nadis of the subtle body as taught in Dzogchen" is completely wrong, and is in fact an anatomical drawing of biliary channels.

Javierfv1212 said:
Are these biliary channels used in Dzogchen at all or should this image simply be removed?

Malcolm wrote:
Remove.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: Interaction with spirits
Content:


MiphamFan said:
That's my understanding of protector rites in TB, sang offerings etc. Correct me if I am wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
The original purpose of Sang, as I understand it, is that one has made some error, one purifies this mistaken through fumigation with aromatic plants. The second ancient idea of Sang related to nomads was that one would make any newcomer who came to your camp through juniper smoke, etc., to decontaminate them. When doing Sang with Tibetans, this custom is still observed. Later Sang became merged with the Buddhist idea of making offerings to the four classes of guests, but this is not part of the original, pre-Buddhist custom. And of course, confessions are a very important part of the Sang rite; absent, for example in Chö.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
cloudburst said:
As for me, I have trouble understanding why, if you could be familiarizing yourself with the most direct method, you would start in with the two stages.

Malcolm wrote:
A Dzogchen practitioner should have experience with all kinds of teachings. That does not however mean that he or she regards teachings which belong to the eight lower yānas as the path.

cloudburst said:
A Dzogchen practitioner should have experience with all kinds of teachings...

Malcolm wrote:
I include here non-Buddhist teachings of any kind. Dzogchen practitioners have to learn how to integrate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Stream-entry in a Mahāyāna context
Content:
Seeker12 said:
Also, is all of this from the Abhisamayalankara?

Malcolm wrote:
More or less...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Entry into gcod
Content:
heart said:
Yes, but today it seems he will give the "Khadroi Gadgyang”, he already transmitted his own chöd practice the last two days.
/magnus

michaelb said:
Cool. A great opportunity for everyone able to watch/listen in. I understand there is no specific wang for the khando'i gejung so it would be interesting to see what form such a transmission usually takes and how Rinpoche does it.

Khechara said:
Sorry, I know it is a very old thread but I specifically want to clarify whether or not there is a specific wang for the Sound of Dakini Laughter Practice. Also, which teachers besides Lama Wangdu are currently offering this teaching in Nepal?

Thank you

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no specific empowerment for this chö text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
PeterC said:
Malcolm - this may be an overly broad question, but I'm curious - what would you consider as the essential reading list for a practitioner?  What is the minimum set of texts that someone should have received and be familiar with, irrespective of which particular lineage of teachings they practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Impossible to answer such a broad question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: Stream-entry in a Mahāyāna context
Content:
Coëmgenu said:
How is stream-entry defined and contextualized from a Bodhisattvayāna-informed perspective specifically? Is there any significant difference in how Mahāyāna and Theravāda define contextualize and regard stream-entry?

Malcolm wrote:
First stage is Mahayana stream entry

Seeker12 said:
What are the full correlations? That is, if stream entry is the first Bhumi/path of seeing, then what are the correlates for a once returner, non-returner, and arhat/arahant?

Thanks.


Malcolm wrote:
Mahāyāna once returner = sixth bhumi; Mahāyāna never returner = eighth bhumi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen wikipedia article
Content:
Javierfv1212 said:
I have recently been working on editing this article,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen

I have mostly been adding to section 3 "Conceptual background", drawing a lot from Buddhahood in this life and some books by Sam van Schaik.

However I am still somewhat of a beginner in this topic and I was wondering if you folks could take a look at this article and let me know what in this article needs to be fixed, or is just incorrect. Also is there any important material you feel is missing?

Malcolm wrote:
On thing I can tell you that the illustration titled "Illustration of the channels or nadis of the subtle body as taught in Dzogchen" is completely wrong, and is in fact an anatomical drawing of biliary channels.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 9th, 2017 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
cloudburst said:
As for me, I have trouble understanding why, if you could be familiarizing yourself with the most direct method, you would start in with the two stages.

Malcolm wrote:
A Dzogchen practitioner should have experience with all kinds of teachings. That does not however mean that he or she regards teachings which belong to the eight lower yānas as the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 8th, 2017 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
DGA said:
I think we need to be cautious in generalizing about the being and characteristics of other people's deities.  This is because it's good to be respectful, but it's also good not to be uncritical and take such narratives at face value

treehuggingoctopus said:
Sounds reasonable. There is also a good chance that in many situations nobody picks up the phone, there being nobody to begin with -- just the ordinary, mountain-moving faith and devotion.

I am afraid that is all just prapanca, though, and a prapanca of a really useless sort -- although it is certainly a less damaging kind of prapanca than interpreting the features of a religion one does not follow in terms of the religion (or Buddhadharma) one follows. An archangel being a gyalpo is very nearly as offensive as a Buddha being a devil.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas typically do not kill dragons nor decimate armies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 8th, 2017 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas etc., are greatly outnumbered by false teachers and paths.

Vasana said:
False paths...false by Buddhist standards but valid for them.  It's difficult to quantify and compare when the teachings say that both Buddhas and beings are innumerable. In terms of how things appear in this world, the ratio doesn't look so great.

If we are take the Bodhichitta vow literally and based on what you've said before, all beings will become Buddhas eventually. Some illusions continue much longer and feel more painful than others is all. Contemplating that scale of time and the duration of life in God realms is difficult for us to really comprehend directly. I always wondered why it is that beings may have the merit for heavens, but lack the merit for their to be an abundance of Dharma in that heaven.

dzogchungpa said:
V, apparently some people have brainwashed themselves into objectifying their religion as being something more than a narrative, a story, as someone or other once put it.

Malcolm wrote:
Religion is one thing, Dharma is another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 8th, 2017 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
For example, there can be unintended consequences from making Sang offerings, sometimes fatal ones.

Grigoris said:
Of course many of the beings we make Sang offering to may be quite fickle.  People are fickle when you make gifts to them, so I imagine other beings would be too But everyone thinks Sang offering are great, and never question the wisdom of making them in this or that place. But when one looks a little deeper, one discovers many stories of people who have mistakenly upset demons in a given area through doing Sang, through doing Chö, through doing Serkyem, etc.
True.  But the thing is that regardless of the attack, if one can maintain their samaya and view, then the attacks are essentially rendered ineffectual.

Malcolm wrote:
You are forgetting about collateral damage to others. That was the point of the example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 8th, 2017 at 1:30 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Vasana said:
Greater in number perhaps, but not in strength.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas etc., are greatly outnumbered by false teachers and paths.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Vasana said:
Maybe so, maybe not. I think cosmology of the realms in general and the motivations and activities of non-humans is likely far more complex than us worldings can really see or determine.  Which sounds like a cop-out but I think all speculation is just that.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, they are driven by the three poisons, just like we are. This is why worldly beings who are not bound to the Dharma are not reliable at all. Even then, those who are periodically need to be reminded of their commitments.

Vasana said:
Yeah in the grand scheme of things, I can totally accept that, which I'm happy to highlight is fundamentally the most important point herr. It's the particularities and complexities involved such as categorizing A.A.M as a gyalpo or a being who needs propagating that I think are just speculations. I'll even admit that my own 'conclusions' are also ultimately speculative and based on incomplete information and inadequate immediate perception of the matters at hand. If there's really an immediate threat, you would have thought that a Buddha, mahasiddha or Dharmapala would have done something about it by now.

Malcolm wrote:
It's a war out there. The forces of Māra are greater than the forces of Dharma. It is obvious.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Vasana said:
I can accept that. I just interpreted your use of 'taming' and gyalpo to indicate that he requires special wrathful subjugation when it's more likely (to me ) that he's a peaceful deva with guardian activity. (Guardian of his traditions, not a Dharmapala)

Not all beings can meet the dharma. It's just the way it is that some people encounter paths that lead to hanging out in heaven realms for a while.

Malcolm wrote:
Michael is an angel of wrath, not peaceful at all, a nāga slayer, one who decimated the armies of Sennacherib. In order to believe that Michael is peaceful, you sort of have to side the Israelites.

Vasana said:
Maybe so, maybe not. I think cosmology of the realms in general and the motivations and activities of non-humans is likely far more complex than us worldings can really see or determine.  Which sounds like a cop-out but I think all speculation is just that.

Malcolm wrote:
Dude, they are driven by the three poisons, just like we are. This is why worldly beings who are not bound to the Dharma are not reliable at all. Even then, those who are periodically need to be reminded of their commitments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:



Vasana said:
I completely disagree. A.A Michael is not malevolent to humans at all. If anything, he's a Deva, and protector of the traditions associated with him, not a worldly being. He can also swiftly deal with various provocations.

Malcolm wrote:
Vasana, are you claiming that Michael is a bodhisattva on the stages? Because otherwise, he is just a sentient being cycling through samsara, like Shiva, Kali, Brahma, Indra, Vishnu, etc., if he even exists at all.

Vasana said:
I can accept that. I just interpreted your use of 'taming' and gyalpo to indicate that he requires special wrathful subjugation when it's more likely (to me ) that he's a peaceful deva with guardian activity. (Guardian of his traditions, not a Dharmapala)

Not all beings can meet the dharma. It's just the way it is that some people encounter paths that lead to hanging out in heaven realms for a while.

Malcolm wrote:
Michael is an angel of wrath, not peaceful at all, a nāga slayer, one who decimated the armies of Sennacherib. In order to believe that Michael is peaceful, you sort of have to side the Israelites.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Vasana said:
Yes, that's what new agers preach. I'm neutral in regards to this. But agree that labelling a Gyalpo may be quite complicated issue!
Cosmology and variety of 'supernatural' beings is not rigidly confined soley to the descriptions found in any one given tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a clear dividing line: there are beings who are āryas and then there is the rest of us samsarins, including Jesus, Michael, Gabriel, etc.

The Buddha clearly states in so many places that outside his Dharma and Vinaya there are no stream entrants, one returners, never returners, and arhats.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Just a Christian/Muslim/Jewish Gyalpo, a worldly being, not within samaya, definitely in need of taming.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
New agers would think otherwise!


Vasana said:
I completely disagree. A.A Michael is not malevolent to humans at all. If anything, he's a Deva, and protector of the traditions associated with him, not a worldly being. He can also swiftly deal with various provocations.

Malcolm wrote:
Vasana, are you claiming that Michael is a bodhisattva on the stages? Because otherwise, he is just a sentient being cycling through samsara, like Shiva, Kali, Brahma, Indra, Vishnu, etc., if he even exists at all. I suppose you can use Pabhongkha's logic, which is to say that if you believe  a worldly being is a buddha, then for you it is so. However, look where that logic led the Tibetan state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Not my job.

Grigoris said:
So what is your job then?  Offering unsolicited advice and criticizing valid practical advice?


Malcolm wrote:
You might wish to think about that the next time you offer unsolicited advice.

A lot of unintended consequences can result from making offerings to worldly beings. For example, there can be unintended consequences from making Sang offerings, sometimes fatal ones. But everyone thinks Sang offering are great, and never question the wisdom of making them in this or that place. But when one looks a little deeper, one discovers many stories of people who have mistakenly upset demons in a given area through doing Sang, through doing Chö, through doing Serkyem, etc. When you go and piss off some nāga for making an offering at the wrong time, or with the wrong incense for example, the effects may not hit you, because nagas strike out at random when they are annoyed — this is just one example. But you are a great Ngakpa now, so you can ignore my opinions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Vasana said:
Interesting that it's Archangel Michael. I suspect as you say, Greg,  that the followers are more blood-thirsty and greedy than he is. A.A Michael is known for his protective qualities and subjugation of other harmful beings. I really don't think he would interfere with anyone's Dharma activities whatsoever and is not a being that needs 'taming'. Sounds like the people need taming.

Malcolm wrote:
Just a Christian/Muslim/Jewish Gyalpo, a worldly being, not within samaya, definitely in need of taming.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
New agers would think otherwise!

Malcolm wrote:
New agers are also worldly beings, not within samaya, definitely in need of taming.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: Rigdzin Sokdrup
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
invocation of Drala ... which can also be added

rai said:
great, does it exist in english? thank you

Malcolm wrote:
Someone must have translated it, but I am not sure who.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just a Christian/Muslim/Jewish Gyalpo, a worldly being, not within samaya, definitely in need of taming.

Grigoris said:
So do it.


Malcolm wrote:
Not my job.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Vasana said:
Interesting that it's Archangel Michael. I suspect as you say, Greg,  that the followers are more blood-thirsty and greedy than he is. A.A Michael is known for his protective qualities and subjugation of other harmful beings. I really don't think he would interfere with anyone's Dharma activities whatsoever and is not a being that needs 'taming'. Sounds like the people need taming.

Malcolm wrote:
Just a Christian/Muslim/Jewish Gyalpo, a worldly being, not within samaya, definitely in need of taming.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


gzodzilpa said:
Aside from ye she, what are the the other properties?

Malcolm wrote:
Infinite.



gzodzilpa said:
So like mtha bral, mtha yas, or mtha med?

Malcolm wrote:
bsam mi khyab


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
I think this thread has gone off topic in discussing zen but also in discussing the definition of rigpa. I think it is clear that Harris, and others that talk about awareness, not as a translation of rigpa, but as a feature of the ground. Phrases like open awareness, empty cognisance, non-dual awareness, etc. are used as terms for mind's nature not knowledge of it.

Malcolm wrote:
Harris uses awareness for rigpa. Waking Up, pg. 134:
"The Dzogchen master must precipitate an insight on the basis of which a student can thereafter practice a form of awareness (Tibetan: rigpa) that is unencumbered by subject/object dualism."
This point of view does not go beyond Yogacara. Yogācāra is great, but let's not confuse it with Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
ye she is a property of rig pa.

gzodzilpa said:
Aside from ye she, what are the the other properties?

Malcolm wrote:
Infinite.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Mantrik said:
If you could persuade the others to abandon the killing it would be fantastic.

Grigoris said:
The slaughter is actually illegal (because they kill the bull without rendering it unconscious first), so really it is up to the police to stop it.  Have you ever tried to stop a baying mob of blood lusting zealots?

The church ain't going to stop it because the entire festival/spectacle is highly profitable.

The protector will not want them to stop because it is a source of power for them.

So unless a Guru Rinpoche comes along I don't think the practice will stop any time soon.

Mantrik said:
We can only do our best.   Trite, but true.

Malcolm wrote:
It certainly wont happen by attempting to placate blood thirsty local spirits with red dough sculptures. First they must be tamed. Otherwise, they will continue to encourage blood sacrifices to themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: Understanding non-duality
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Yeah. Maybe. ChNN never says this.

Malcolm wrote:
Never says what?

Crazywisdom said:
I've never heard him use the wetness/heat analogy. I have heard him and Garchen travel to Advaita land. I tend to go with your approach, but I've not heard a lama go there.

Malcolm wrote:
No, but he does say over and over again, your primordial state is your own primordial state, not someone else's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: How to practice generosity in modern society
Content:
boda said:
There's one difference right there, in modern society you can drive to Vons buy the tigers a roast or whatever.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, now you've outed your general location.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, I question the use of the word at all with respect to indigenous religion cultures.

If we confine it Mongolians, fine. But then in order to be a Mongolian shaman, one has to kill animals as part of one's initiation rites.

Mantrik said:
Well, that was what the OP asked about, so we can attempt to answer or simply state that the question cannot be answered as one of the terms does not really apply in this context.

I agree that it is fraught with problems, made much worse by the worldwide hijacking of the 'shaman word' and also the 'indigenous' word.
In the case of 'indigenous' people take it to mean tribal or ethnic as opposed to 'belonging to a specific place'. Hence I have 'indigenous shamanism' being conducted down the road in Glastonbury where it is neither indigenous nor shamanic, but a nice little earner with a killbunny sweatlodge weekend course and a real Certificate to prove you are ready to start drumming up you very own psychic storm. Thankfully, some of those running the courses are moving on the 'mindfulness' , which I'm sure will be 'shamanic mindfulness' before the year is out.

In the case of the Mongolian shamans, I am under no illusions.........goats, and later on dogs etc. in initiations.  I do see some signs of change, however, as some of those soon to become elders would like to move to other forms of offering, but whether they have the courage to do so once they have actually become elders remains to be seen.   I'm told lots of Gelugs there worshipped the Gyalpo in the past but no longer do so,  so maybe that will also help make a less fearful society.

Malcolm wrote:
Or trance mindfulness, spirit animal meditation timers


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 7th, 2017 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Mantrik said:
In Tibet specifically, which is the topic here ?  Others have adopted and confuddled the 'shaman' term across the globe so much as to make it meaningless.  If we stick to Tibet, or at least the Himalayas, we have a fighting chance of defining characteristics.  Trance seems to be the glue binding them all, but there may be traditions which don't use it in the Himalayas?


Malcolm wrote:
People keep on claiming that Bon descends from Tibetan Shamanism. And if trances are your defining characteristics, new age channelers are also shamans.

Mantrik said:
Malcolm, firstIy, I was specific about the Himalayas and the need to be narrow in order to define shamanism there.  Secondly,  your logic is akin to saying that 'all swans are white therefore all white things are swans'. I asserted that those shamans I have encountered or read about all seem to use trance, and thus it is a defining characteristic. It makes no sense to then conclude that all who use trance are therefore shamans, and I did not assert that at all, because it would be daft to do so.

I further qualified what I said by asking if 'there may be traditions which don't use it in the HImalayas?  If not, my definition is strengthened, as a description of what is authentically shamanic in Tibet and the wider Himalayas.

I would add that traditionally, the job may have had a title like 'Pau', but then some adopted the 'shaman' label to help people understand what they did. The word has since become very widely misused and debased, but it is the best we have for this discussion in the absence of a detailed list and map of all the shamanic forms and their interactions with Vajrayana.   As I wrote way back, nobody knows for sure, but some best guesses are helpful, and ChNN's book I mentioned picks up at the point where history is more certan.

You do seem to like to argue with points you wish people had made rather than the ones they actually made.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, I question the use of the word at all with respect to indigenous religion cultures.

If we confine it Mongolians, fine. But then in order to be a Mongolian shaman, one has to kill animals as part of one's initiation rites.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: How to practice generosity in modern society
Content:
Queequeg said:
The Jataka Tale about Prince Vessantara has always made me feel uneasy.

That story relates the Buddha's last incarnation in the human realm before his birth as Siddhartha Gautama.

In the course of the story, he gives away everything, including his wife and child. IIRC there is a happy ending, but, the ideal posited is extreme. Dana is perfected, but at tremendous cost to the Prince's kingdom, and then ultimately, his family. Its also not quite clear if the donees benefited since their motivation in asking the Prince for his property is tinged with malice.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe according to one tradition.

According to Tibetan tradition, the Jataka where he throws himself off a cliff to feed the mother tigress and her cubs is his last life as a human being before taking birth in Tushita, and then as Śākyamuni. The site of this event is called "Body offered to the tigress" (rtag mo lus sbyin) AKA Namo Buddha in Nepal.

Queequeg said:
That's an interesting contrast. Offering of one's own body does not raise the same concerns as giving away the livelihood of your kingdom and your family.

Malcolm wrote:
Sakya Pandita remarks:
Third, the three in the generosity of one who has obtained patience towards the nonarising of all dharmas: renunciation, increased renunciation and great renunciation.

The first is giving up a kingdom. The second is giving up one’s cherished relatives, children, wives, and so on. The third is giving up one’s body, head and limbs and so on.
From this point of view, bodhisattva giving his body to the tigress is great renunciation, the Jataka of Viśvaṃtara giving away his family is increased.

Queequeg said:
AFAIK, the offering to the Tigress is included in all jataka collections, but not as the last incarnation. I assume the Vessantara story is included in the Tibetan canon? Do you know where is appears?

Malcolm wrote:
Jataka of Viśvaṃtara occurs in the Jatakas in the collection of Jatakas.

The tradition that the bodhisattva offered his body to the tigress and then was born in Tuṣita comes from the Sūtra of the Wise and Foolish (translated into Tibetan from Chinese):

"After I gave my body to the starving tigress, I was born in the place of the Tuṣita devas."

Thus, in Tibetan Buddhism, this is the general tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: Understanding non-duality
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Yeah. Maybe. ChNN never says this.

Malcolm wrote:
Never says what?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 8:57 PM
Title: Re: How to practice generosity in modern society
Content:
Queequeg said:
The Jataka Tale about Prince Vessantara has always made me feel uneasy.

That story relates the Buddha's last incarnation in the human realm before his birth as Siddhartha Gautama.

In the course of the story, he gives away everything, including his wife and child. IIRC there is a happy ending, but, the ideal posited is extreme. Dana is perfected, but at tremendous cost to the Prince's kingdom, and then ultimately, his family. Its also not quite clear if the donees benefited since their motivation in asking the Prince for his property is tinged with malice.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe according to one tradition.

According to Tibetan tradition, the Jataka where he throws himself off a cliff to feed the mother tigress and her cubs is his last life as a human being before taking birth in Tushita, and then as Śākyamuni. The site of this event is called "Body offered to the tigress" (rtag mo lus sbyin) AKA Namo Buddha in Nepal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 8:28 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Grigoris said:
Shamanism is too ill-defined to be a valid descriptor.

This notion that trance is somehow a defining characteristic of shamanism is also a little off.

Mantrik said:
In Tibet specifically, which is the topic here ?  Others have adopted and confuddled the 'shaman' term across the globe so much as to make it meaningless.  If we stick to Tibet, or at least the Himalayas, we have a fighting chance of defining characteristics.  Trance seems to be the glue binding them all, but there may be traditions which don't use it in the Himalayas?


Malcolm wrote:
People keep on claiming that Bon descends from Tibetan Shamanism. And if trances are your defining characteristics, new age channelers are also shamans.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: Understanding non-duality
Content:
fckw said:
Thanks, Malcolm, that's very clear now. Btw, just ordered your book and looking forward to receiving it.

Malcolm wrote:
I hope you enjoy reading it. If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask, either here or by pm.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 8:25 AM
Title: Re: The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Content:
Meido said:
Friends,

I'm very pleased to announce that my book The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice is currently in production with Shambhala Publications, and expected to be available in February or March 2018. Shambhala distributes through Penguin Random House, so this should be available in all the usual places one finds books these days.

Malcolm wrote:
Congratulations. I am sure your book will be well received.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Understanding non-duality
Content:
florin said:
However statement like the above where CNNr says that "there is no separation" and "they are one and the same thing" implies very clearly that the student's mind merges with the teacher's mind.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it implies that the state of the teacher and student are the same state as in all water is wet, all fires are hot. There is no separation in "all water is wet, all fires are hot," where "all" refers to all instances of wetness or heat. When one takes things as a group, a group is by nature not individuated.

Dzogchen does not abandon the firmly established nominalism which permeates general Buddhist discourse, and Buddhist logic in particular—  in fact it reinforces it.

Otherwise florin, you wind up in Advaita land.

fckw said:
Just for me to make sure I understand this particular point, Malcolm: So you are saying that in Dzogchen, "non-dual" refers to the "wetness of drops of water". Because all drops of water are wet, they are said to be "non-dual". In contrast, Dzogchen does not state that "all drops are one water", i.e. it does not interpret non-duality according to the idea that there drops lose individuality any point in time and merge into one unified water entity.
Is this correct, is this what you mean?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct.

fckw said:
This position does make sense to me, yet one thing that I find puzzling about it is that it does not clearly elaborate on the occurrence of individuality. Are there multiple individual bases (gzhi) or not? Or is it rather hold that individuality (and the absence thereof) arises in the base like everything else? If so, then how could the base be said to be either one or many or none?

Malcolm wrote:
The basis is ka dag, i.e., emptiness. It does not make sense to say that emptiness is one thing or many things. However, the emptiness of all things is the same; and yet it makes no sense to speak of emptinesses that are not the emptinesses of specific things. This is why we call the basis, "the generic basis." This basis, though nondual since existence, nonexistence, and so on do not apply to it, is also neither one thing nor many things. If it was one thing, it cannot manifest as a diversity; if it is many things, its single nature is contradicted. The Cuckoo of Vidyā states:
The primal nature of diversity is also nondual; 
in reality, free from the proliferation of partiality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
There is a typo "This also rules out most so called "shamans" for whom trance states are NOT a feature of their practice."

Mantrik said:
The shaman business is full of fakers, and faking trance as dramatically as possible is part of their tomfoolery.
I would agree that those genuinely using trance are few and far between.

Malcolm wrote:
I am just saying that the rubric of shamanism does not always include trances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Mantrik said:
Defining Shaman:
If we examine practitioners as opposed to followers, Shamans tend, in my experience,  to use trance as a medium through which to contact their spirits and also be possessed by them. This defines the shamanic as opposed to the village healers, Ngakpas etc.
In the Vajrayana, very few practitioners use trance, so in general do not fit the shamanic definition and thus we can differentiate.

Malcolm wrote:
This then rules out most pre-Buddhist religious practice in Tibet in which trance is not a feature at all. This also rules out most so called "shamans" for whom trance states are a feature of their practice.

Mantrik said:
Pre-Buddhist religious practice in Tibet - what do you mean by religious?  spiritual? Bon?  Pre-Bon?

Then we have the equally thorny definition of 'trance'. Some shamans 'journey' with no recollection of it, others have good recall. There are many variants.

There is little documentation of shamanism per se, let alone pre-Buddhist Tibet, so how are you sure about 'most' ?

Not sure I understand the second sentence......do you mean the present day?  Some have long lineages, so perform according to the teaching of their elders, others are just in it to fleece dopey westerners.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a typo "This also rules out most so called "shamans" for whom trance states are NOT a feature of their practice."

I mean Tibetan religion prior to 600 c.e.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I assume you are referring to Newar Buddhism —— however, you fail to notice that Shingon is actually earlier than Tibetan Buddhism, and it is also still practiced.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Yes, I know this detail about Shingon, I know too that no Sakya, Gelug or Kagyu existed in India! I'm referring to the emphasis given by these lineages to later tantras and related practices. That are virtually absent from Nyingma and are but are also practiced in Newar Tradition. Samvara Tantra being important in Newar Tradition. But what about dzogchen? The Six Yogas didn't came also from India, from Naropa? I don't know about the present state of it among them, but some of it accomplishers were ethnic newaris as you know!

Malcolm wrote:
Śrī Heruka is an early form of Hevajra, and was Padmasambhava's main practice.

The Laghusamvara indeed is a later tantra, appearing long after the Guhyasamaja and so on were translated during the first promulgation of tantras to Tibet. What makes it more valid than a whole host of earlier tantras in the Nyingma corpus, for example, the Guhyagarbha? This text definitely was translated from Sanskrit into Tibetan during the early ninth century. Did it ever occur to you that the circles in which tantras like Guhyagarbha. Vajrakilaya and so on were necessarily smaller since Vajrayāna was still an extremely new movement in India? Indians were just like Tibetans, going after newer revelations, and neglecting older ones. In fact, Indian panditas who came to Tibet in the 11th were unable to read the palm leave manuscripts from the late 8th/earlhy 9th century at Samye because in that 200 year period, scripts had changed so much. Dzogchen was a teaching which existed at Nalanda during the eighth century. We know this because there are several Indian commentaries on that tantra, we have mentions of a commentary for the rdo rje sems dpa' nam kha' che by Śrī Singha quoted bu Nubchen. Why do we accept the Chan masters he quotes as being real people and real texts, but throw shade on the Dzogchen texts and masters he mentions? It is shitty scholarship to do so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Mantrik said:
Defining Shaman:
If we examine practitioners as opposed to followers, Shamans tend, in my experience,  to use trance as a medium through which to contact their spirits and also be possessed by them. This defines the shamanic as opposed to the village healers, Ngakpas etc.
In the Vajrayana, very few practitioners use trance, so in general do not fit the shamanic definition and thus we can differentiate.

Malcolm wrote:
This then rules out most pre-Buddhist religious practice in Tibet in which trance is not a feature at all. This also rules out most so called "shamans" for whom trance states are a feature of their practice.

Mantrik said:
Aspects of divination are shared,  as are ritual implements, in some cases quite literally, between shamans and lamas.

Malcolm wrote:
There are many divination methods in Indian tantras, mirror divination not least among them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Plus we have more documentation about the lineages that originate the later Sarmas lineages ,were originally practiced in "India" and how the transmission occured...

Malcolm wrote:
I just want to add that because of this orientalist and largely gsar ma inspired anti-Nyingma agenda, the true roots of much of so called Nyingma tantra in Indian texts have either been overlooked, ignored, or not properly vetted.

Vajrakilaya, Śrī Heruka, Guhyagarbha, etc., are all cases in point. There is no reason to doubt that Vairocana received Dzogchen teachings from Śrī Simha, since the latter is mentioned in at least one later polemical text the most prominent in a group of scholars who argued the creation stage was unnecessary, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Nyingma is more related to Yungdrung Bon and other traditions labeled as "Shamanic" in character.


Malcolm wrote:
1) What do you mean by Shamanic?
2) How is Yungdrung Bon shamanic at all?
3) How is Nyingma related to Yungdrung Bon, what specific practices do you mean? You cannot possibly mean Dzogchen because Dzogchen's roots in "India" are very clear and well established.

As far as I can tell, you are just repeating old orientalist tropes from the early 20th century.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
1)With this a I can agree with you that it's a vague term and notion, with this i'm referring to pre-buddhist practices, native to Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you should say "pre-Buddhist practices found in Tibet."


Nyedrag Yeshe said:
2) I also agree that it's not shamanic in any sense! But read again, I said its normally labelled as such by people who promote the so-called "shamanic origins" of TB

Malcolm wrote:
Is it useful to continue to promote such misunderstandings?

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
3)Yes, Dzogchen, and their divisions of Yanas being similar. Also their lower Yanas focus on divination and healing practices that tend to be associated with "shamanism". Plus their claims that their tradition predates Buddhism introduction. At least David Germano, asserts that separete lineages bearing the label dzogchen are absent in "India" (Oddiyana, Bharata Varsha, Aryavarta or whatever name you want to call it).

Malcolm wrote:
There is also no Sakya Lineage, Gelug lineage, Mahamudra lineage, etc. in India either.

Bonpos may claim their Dzogchen tradition predates Buddhist Dzogchen, but there is no evidence for this apart from the claim that it is so.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Of course many of it practices and concepts have its origins there, and were practiced there certainly, and the words mahasandhi and atiyoga are present in the Tantras. But the concept of Dzogchen as lineage of practice can be a tibetan thing!

Malcolm wrote:
Just as the concept of a Lamdre Lineage, or a Mahāmudra lineage is a Tibetan thing. In fact, the whole obsession with lineages seems to be a wholly Tibetan thing.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Plus we have more documentation about the lineages that originate the later Sarmas lineages ,were originally practiced in "India" and how the transmission occured, besides plain tibetan mythology!

Malcolm wrote:
You must be kidding. When one looks into the gsar ma lineages as recorded by Tibetans, there is nothing but a morass of conflicting accounts and legends.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
And its more recent, and related lineages and practices are also present and practiced outside of TB to this day.

Malcolm wrote:
I assume you are referring to Newar Buddhism —— however, you fail to notice that Shingon is actually earlier than Tibetan Buddhism, and it is also still practiced.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 6th, 2017 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Nyingma is more related to Yungdrung Bon and other traditions labeled as "Shamanic" in character.


Malcolm wrote:
1) What do you mean by Shamanic?
2) How is Yungdrung Bon shamanic at all?
3) How is Nyingma related to Yungdrung Bon, what specific practices do you mean? You cannot possibly mean Dzogchen because Dzogchen's roots in "India" are very clear and well established.

As far as I can tell, you are just repeating old orientalist tropes from the early 20th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2017 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Mantrik said:
You seriously think smoke offerings came from shamanism in Tibet , specifically?  I won't repeat or restate my answer for the third time.

Malcolm wrote:
Bsang offerings are something which are very specific and indeed they have pre-Buddhist Tibetan origins. That there are similar customs of burning fragrant herbs and wood in other parts of the world cannot be denied, but bsang is something very precise, specific, and pre-Buddhist.

Mantrik said:
Those specific practices yes, but that was not what was written or asserted. Smoke offerings occur widely, and vary according to who was making them to which spiritual being and for what purpose. I would find it hard to believe that Buddhism lacked any forms of smoke offering before it encountered Tibetan shamans.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism had the custom of offering incense, part of the standard set of offerings we find in Indian religion. That's it. But it was nothing like a purifying Sang offering, or Native American rites using sage and other aromatic plants for purification. Such smoke offerings are absent from all Buddhisms apart from Himalayan Buddhism.

I also think it is not useful to say that these things are "shamanic," the term is to vague and ill-defined.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2017 at 9:58 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
DGA said:
I recall reading a claim among scholars that sang offerings in particular are pre-Buddhist Tibetan rituals.  It may have been in Drung, Deu, and Bon, but my memory is poor.

Malcolm wrote:
It was, ChNN, building on Samten Karmey's research, points out that a specific custom we find in pre-Buddhist Tibetan rites is that they always detail the history and purpose of the rite as a prolegomena, and that recitation is integral to the rite itself. This distinguishes autochthonic Tibetan rites from Indian imports.

I would argue that this custom has carried over into Tibetan Buddhism as a concern for lineage and origin narratives, a concern largely absent from Indian Buddhism in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2017 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
On the contrary, the formal Vajrayana as practiced in Gelugpa and Sakya institutions, was in many ways a plainly Indian thing !

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is a conceit of these schools, and at one time I believed this, but in reality, in their own way, the practice of Vajrayāna in Gelug and Sakya is as far removed from Indian modes of practice as it is in Nyingma. The Gelugpas and Sakyas also make use of thread cross rituals, sang offerings, elaborate tormas, Drala rites, and so on.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
Yes Namdrol,

Malcolm wrote:
Please use my given name, thanks.

Nyedrag Yeshe said:
But what about what I term the "bulk" of practices, like the two stages of completion and generation, the six yogas, retreats, Guru Yoga. This actually came from India or not?

Malcolm wrote:
The practices you mention indeed have sources in tantras (which by and large come from Oḍḍiyāna, BTW, not "India") why single out Sakya and Gelug? All of these practices are shared by Nyingma and Sarma alike.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2017 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Mantrik said:
You seriously think smoke offerings came from shamanism in Tibet , specifically?  I won't repeat or restate my answer for the third time.

Malcolm wrote:
Bsang offerings are something which are very specific and indeed they have pre-Buddhist Tibetan origins. That there are similar customs of burning fragrant herbs and wood in other parts of the world cannot be denied, but bsang is something very precise, specific, and pre-Buddhist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2017 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Nyedrag Yeshe said:
On the contrary, the formal Vajrayana as practiced in Gelugpa and Sakya institutions, was in many ways a plainly Indian thing !

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is a conceit of these schools, and at one time I believed this, but in reality, in their own way, the practice of Vajrayāna in Gelug and Sakya is as far removed from Indian modes of practice as it is in Nyingma. The Gelugpas and Sakyas also make use of thread cross rituals, sang offerings, elaborate tormas, Drala rites, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2017 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Shamanistic influence on Tibetan Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The problem with this conversation is that the term "Shamanism" is too vague and imprecise. We have a pretty precise idea of what Buddhism is, in all its aspects, and we know quite well its flexibility in accommodating local cults. But we do not have a very precise idea of what the blanket term "Shamanism" entails.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 5th, 2017 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: Bronze vs Iron Phurba
Content:
DGA said:
does one attain the same through the practice of Guru Dragphur, or only Kilaya?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, since it is included.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2017 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
zenman said:
So who is right...?


Malcolm wrote:
Try to order it and you will find out...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2017 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: How to practice generosity in modern society
Content:
javier.espinoza.t said:
mm should one judge what people do with our gifts?

Malcolm wrote:
One has to give wisely and understand whether our generosity causing harm or benefit. If we think a gift we give will be used harmfully by the recipient, it is better we do not give.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 4th, 2017 at 7:57 PM
Title: Re: Offering and Accomplishing Mandala
Content:
sangyey said:
What is the difference between an Offering Mandala and an Accomplishing Mandala?

Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
One goes on your shrine, the other you use for counting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2017 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Seventeen Tantras Volume 1 & 2
Content:
pael said:
How long it takes to translate all seventeen?


Malcolm wrote:
I'll tell you when I am finished.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2017 at 11:46 AM
Title: Re: Buddhahood in This Life
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I am..however I have a question...does one need to know/understand all of the topics to be able to accomplish rainbow body? Hasnt there been regular people who werent brainiacs like Vimalamitra, Vairocana, and Padmasambhava who realized rainbow body?

Malcolm wrote:
The unelaborated topics are for those who do not need the more elaborate approach. It is in the book.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2017 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Seventeen Tantras Volume 1 & 2
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
Will Zangthal Editions be doing any self-publishing of short translations and the like?

Malcolm wrote:
we are working on that


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 3rd, 2017 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Angulimala Sutra
Content:
Su DongPo said:
I am searching, but no luck yet.

Here's a video to keep you occupied in the meantime --

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]

Anonymous X said:
In this oral interpretation, he seems to be talking about an Advaitin point of view, not a Buddhist. Where in this sutra does the Buddha talk about the reality of Atman?


Malcolm wrote:
It is one of the ten tathāgatgarbha sūtras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2017 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: Rigdzin Sokdrup
Content:
pemachophel said:
I understand the sections added by H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, but are you sure Lhatsun'S original was not longer? This what we were told in Sikkim two years ago when we did pilgrimage there and primarily did Riwo Sangchod in all of Guru Rinpoche'S caves. I remember being told the original practice was an all-day affair, but I've never seen the original terma.

Malcolm wrote:
I am quite sure. It may be found in the dag snang section of his collected works.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 2nd, 2017 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Without conceptual elaboration, there is no rigpa word or any teaching, which is exactly my point.

Malcolm wrote:
This citation seems apropo:

Though one cannot speak of emptiness,
it is very important to match words and meanings.
The nature, method, and result
can be explained without contradicting
the intention of the unfabricated Great Perfection.
-- Equal to the End of Space Tantra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Rigdzin Sokdrup
Content:
pemachophel said:
H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche condensed Lhatsun's original version that is much longer and then made it His personal daily practice.  This led to its wide popularization.


Malcolm wrote:
No, in fact the original is shorter. Dudjom Rinpoche added refuge, a self-creation, and dedication prayers. There are ancillary texts such as the invocation of Drala and the invocation of prosperity which can also be added which are connected with this sang offering but not actually part of the original text.

conebeckham said:
Right.  Kamtsang add a protector offering, Shangpa add a short NgaSol prayer for Chagdrupa, and we do not do the blessing of offerings or GR generation, which was added by Dudjom Rinpoche.

And it has been done in Sikkim for a long, long time--I think Rumtek figures in the popularization of this practice as well.

Malcolm wrote:
It was a pure vision Lhatsun received when he was trying to locate the hidden land of Dremojong, "Rice Valley." He was told to do this practice as a support for that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Quick Questions about Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Yeah they can be simultaneous or not. But it not exactly true they are separate and distinct systems. Six yogas is always practiced within FFPM, but not always the other way around.

Malcolm wrote:
That is because they are different systems.

Crazywisdom said:
One system lol


Malcolm wrote:
Two times an infinite set...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: Quick Questions about Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
One system as I demonstrated. Five-fold path is like the overarching umbrella that everything falls under and is included within.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you did not demonstrate that. You demonstrated that, in your words, "They can be treated as distinct but then again they can be mixed in."

Crazywisdom said:
Yeah they can be simultaneous or not. But it not exactly true they are separate and distinct systems. Six yogas is always practiced within FFPM, but not always the other way around.

Malcolm wrote:
That is because they are different systems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: Understanding non-duality
Content:
florin said:
However statement like the above where CNNr says that "there is no separation" and "they are one and the same thing" implies very clearly that the student's mind merges with the teacher's mind.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it implies that the state of the teacher and student are the same state as in all water is wet, all fires are hot. There is no separation in "all water is wet, all fires are hot," where "all" refers to all instances of wetness or heat. When one takes things as a group, a group is by nature not individuated.

Dzogchen does not abandon the firmly established nominalism which permeates general Buddhist discourse, and Buddhist logic in particular—  in fact it reinforces it.

Otherwise florin, you wind up in Advaita land.

florin said:
I know how these things are explained with the help of fire and water example but i was playing the devil's advocate for a bit.
I cannot help but think that such statements as the one we are discussing are quite misleading for lots of people.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in particular people do not really understand what "nondual" means in sūtras and tantras. People always assume that it is some kind of yogacara absence of subject and object; but reality it is the absence of extremes.


florin said:
If we go back to it and dig a bit deeper, non separation and separation are two situations that depend on each other. So we cannot have a non separation without a previous situation where the two things were already separated.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is why many dzogchen texts say that the basis is not one, not many, that it is neither dual nor nondual.


florin said:
So now we have non-separation where "they" as in plural are "one and the same thing" where "one and the same thing" doesn't seem to refer to a characteristic like the hotness of fire-as you seem to propose-but to how "they" from their previous condition of individuality and independence have now become "one and the same thing".

Malcolm wrote:
It works for Hindus, but not for Buddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Not simple the way you describe it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes,in fact it is simple— for those who do not allow conceptual elaboration to get in their way.

Anonymous X said:
Without conceptual elaboration, there is no rigpa word or any teaching, which is exactly my point. It is what I quoted from Mipham. Who is it that allows or doesn't allow?

Malcolm wrote:
Seems a rather pyrrhic point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Rigdzin Sokdrup
Content:
pemachophel said:
H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche condensed Lhatsun's original version that is much longer and then made it His personal daily practice.  This led to its wide popularization.


Malcolm wrote:
No, in fact the original is shorter. Dudjom Rinpoche added refuge, a self-creation, and dedication prayers. There are ancillary texts such as the invocation of Drala and the invocation of prosperity which can also be added which are connected with this sang offering but not actually part of the original text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
To define any term, you must use it in a context that relates it to one's own experience. The above quote, which you may or may not agree with, is such an attempt at context with regard to rigpa. There is no isolation of rigpa that is going to have any real meaning, only an interpretation.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, you are wholly ignoring the fact that the whole passage is predicated on defining knowledge (rig pa) with respect to its opposite, ignorance (ma rig pa).


For example, Mipham warns about fabricated knowledge that arises from analysis:

Making effort for a long time in growing the huge poisonous tree of the appearance of clinging to union that is fertilized with the empty clarity of a fabricated vidyā that analyzes each extreme is a ground of deviation in the luminous Great Perfection.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 12:41 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Not simple the way you describe it.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes,in fact it is simple— for those who do not allow conceptual elaboration to get in their way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 11:21 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Well, there's a notion of "five undefiled aggregates", "zag med kyi phung po lnga" in Tibetan. Maybe you could fit rigpa into one of those.

Malcolm wrote:
This applies only to buddhas and arhats, but perhaps if you had studied abhidharma you would have already understood this and provided proper context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
aflatun said:
I think I do understand that much, but how are these functions not "in the aggregates?" Admittedly I wouldn't be sure "where" to put them, perhaps "in" sankhara and sanna, but I dunno

Malcolm wrote:
What I said was that knowledge and ignorance are not listed as mental factors, etc. This is why they are not part of the aggregates, per se. I never implied that cognitions, which are mental factors, did not belong to the aggregates.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Quick Questions about Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Hush. That's not exactly true.

They can be treated as distinct but then again they can be mixed in. Drikung is big on that.

Malcolm wrote:
They are different systems, as you demonstrate above, so hush yourself.

Crazywisdom said:
One system as I demonstrated. Five-fold path is like the overarching umbrella that everything falls under and is included within.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you did not demonstrate that. You demonstrated that, in your words, "They can be treated as distinct but then again they can be mixed in."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
You realize I cited Gampopa's own words, right?

To connect it w yangti Gampopa explains by remaining in rigpa the kayas emerge without conscious thought as various minds like a sparkling gemstone. Still simultaneous. The difference is dzogchen masters made the connection w visible bindu luminosity and the mandalas of the deities so there's the possibility of less questions due to the unmistakability.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, I still don't see that passage referring to them as being simultaneous. If someone realizes nonmeditation they have no need for the three other yogas.

Crazywisdom said:
They are all aspects of the same condition.

Malcolm wrote:
That is a nice interpretation, and I can see your point, but I still do not believe that is what the passage you cited means, given everything else is attributed to Gampopa on the subject, for example, his presentation in the String of Pearls which clearly presents them as a step by step approach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 1st, 2017 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
This is not at all clear in the several books I have encountered. Can you quote any of the recognized Dzogchen masters having said the same thing that you put forth? This would be considered a 'characteristic' and not the substance of true mind which Knowing-Seeing is.

Malcolm wrote:
If I understand your question: you are asking if rig pa is the substance of consciousness? I have already provided an authoritative citation from a commentary on a primary tantra which answers this question:

Furthermore, based on the power of repelling the armies of samsara, vidyā (rig pa) is 1) the knowledge (vidyā) of names designated by words, 2) helpful, worldly knowledge such as healing, arts and crafts, and so on, 3) the five sciences (rig pa gnas lnga) of the treatises and so on, 4) knowing (vidyā) as a factor of consciousness, 5) sharp and dull worldly knowledge and so on, and 6) the knowledge of the essence (snying po) that permeates all that is free from ignorance, unobscured by the obscurations of ignorance and so on.

Anonymous X said:
When a word like rigpa is introduced to me as a central concept in a teaching, I have to try to understand how this word is translated into English. From your description, I am left wondering even more what rig pa means in English. That's not your fault, it is an inherent problem in translation and the different interpretations from one translator to the next. From your explanations, I can't fathom what you are talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
It is pretty damn simple -- rig pa is knowledge, and in the context of Dzogchen it refers to a very specific kind of knowledge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Understanding non-duality
Content:
florin said:
However statement like the above where CNNr says that "there is no separation" and "they are one and the same thing" implies very clearly that the student's mind merges with the teacher's mind.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it implies that the state of the teacher and student are the same state as in all water is wet, all fires are hot. There is no separation in "all water is wet, all fires are hot," where "all" refers to all instances of wetness or heat. When one takes things as a group, a group is by nature not individuated.

Dzogchen does not abandon the firmly established nominalism which permeates general Buddhist discourse, and Buddhist logic in particular—  in fact it reinforces it.

Otherwise florin, you wind up in Advaita land.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
You mean it is an intellectual understanding? I think not. It is not knowledge, it is Knowing. There is a big difference. Using foreign words introduces a whole set of problems as you can see when you peruse these discussions. Are you still looking at the finger that is pointing to the moon?

Malcolm wrote:
No, rig pa is a kind of knowledge. All sentient beings are born with consciousness, and aspect of consciousness is the ability to know things. Sentient beings are not born with rig pa. Rig pa is something one learns from a teacher experientially.  Before one has rig pa, one has ma rig pa. This applies even to Samantabhadra, the adibuddha.

Anonymous X said:
This is not at all clear in the several books I have encountered. Can you quote any of the recognized Dzogchen masters having said the same thing that you put forth? This would be considered a 'characteristic' and not the substance of true mind which Knowing-Seeing is.

Malcolm wrote:
If I understand your question: you are asking if rig pa is the substance of consciousness? I have already provided an authoritative citation from a commentary on a primary tantra which answers this question:

Furthermore, based on the power of repelling the armies of samsara, vidyā (rig pa) is 1) the knowledge (vidyā) of names designated by words, 2) helpful, worldly knowledge such as healing, arts and crafts, and so on, 3) the five sciences (rig pa gnas lnga) of the treatises and so on, 4) knowing (vidyā) as a factor of consciousness, 5) sharp and dull worldly knowledge and so on, and 6) the knowledge of the essence (snying po) that permeates all that is free from ignorance, unobscured by the obscurations of ignorance and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
You mean it is an intellectual understanding? I think not. It is not knowledge, it is Knowing. There is a big difference. Using foreign words introduces a whole set of problems as you can see when you peruse these discussions. Are you still looking at the finger that is pointing to the moon?

Malcolm wrote:
No, rig pa is a kind of knowledge. All sentient beings are born with consciousness, and aspect of consciousness is the ability to know things. Sentient beings are not born with rig pa. Rig pa is something one learns from a teacher experientially.  Before one has rig pa, one has ma rig pa. This applies even to Samantabhadra, the adibuddha.

Anonymous X said:
This is not at all clear in the several books I have encountered. Can you quote any of the recognized Dzogchen masters having said the same thing that you put forth? This would be considered a 'characteristic' and not the substance of true mind which Knowing-Seeing is.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN reinforces this point continually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Understanding non-duality
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
Please forgive me confusion, I'm fairly new to this and am trying to unpack the following line by ChNN concerning direct transmission:

"because the state of the reacher and the student are nondual, it is possible for them to be in that state at the same time. There is no separation; they are one and the same thing."

I realise my understanding of non-duality is fairly minimal. Duality I get, quoting ChNN from The Crystal: "a spurious `subjective self' or `ego' that experiences the world as separate from itself, external and objective, and which continually tries to manipulate that world in order to obtain satisfaction and security." That seems fairly straight forward.

When it comes to non-duality I think I'm confused on several levels, including between the relative and the absolute.

So the purpose of the Dzogchen teaching is to experience our real condition as it is - rigpa, our primordial state. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't our awareness of rigpa individual. My continuum of consciousness, the all-ground consciousness (ālayavijñāna), that is stuck in the cycle of samsara, is individual to everyone else's is it not? My karma is mine alone. When someone else experiences enlightenment that is individual to them, I am not also enlightened.

What is is that is nondual, and allows for direct transmission, what is "one and the same" between teacher and student?

Malcolm wrote:
It is like one flame explaining to another flame their mutual nature of hotness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: Quick Questions about Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Hush. That's not exactly true.

They can be treated as distinct but then again they can be mixed in. Drikung is big on that.

Malcolm wrote:
They are different systems, as you demonstrate above, so hush yourself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
conebeckham said:
Rigpa is not bare awareness in Dzogchen.  It is knowledge of the basic state, which is, i think, a certain aspect of bare awareness, consciousness, beyond "mind" per se.


It is "being in the recognition of mind's nature," which is Rigpa, and not mind's nature itself, yes?

Anonymous X said:
You mean it is an intellectual understanding? I think not. It is not knowledge, it is Knowing. There is a big difference. Using foreign words introduces a whole set of problems as you can see when you peruse these discussions. Are you still looking at the finger that is pointing to the moon?

Malcolm wrote:
No, rig pa is a kind of knowledge. All sentient beings are born with consciousness, and aspect of consciousness is the ability to know things. Sentient beings are not born with rig pa. Rig pa is something one learns from a teacher experientially.  Before one has rig pa, one has ma rig pa. This applies even to Samantabhadra, the adibuddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Anonymous X said:
Are you sure? Malcolm, in another post, said that the pointing led to an intellectual recognition of mind's nature.

Malcolm wrote:
There are three transmissions in Dzogchen, mind, symbol, and verbal. The teacher explains things verbally using symbols, and if the student can be in that state with the teacher at the same time, this is the mind transmission.

Direct introduction is different. With direct introduction the teacher uses experiences to show the student the nature of their mind. There are introductions through ka dag and lhun drub. They are different, but bear on the same point.

At this point, since what you really want to discuss is comparisons between Dzogchen and Zen, I suggest that you open a separate thread since this is kind off topic in a thread devoted to Sam Harris.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
You realize I cited Gampopa's own words, right?

To connect it w yangti Gampopa explains by remaining in rigpa the kayas emerge without conscious thought as various minds like a sparkling gemstone. Still simultaneous. The difference is dzogchen masters made the connection w visible bindu luminosity and the mandalas of the deities so there's the possibility of less questions due to the unmistakability.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, I still don't see that passage referring to them as being simultaneous. If someone realizes nonmeditation they have no need for the three other yogas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:



Anonymous X said:
I'm not arguing that the two have different approaches. And, I'm not trying to say one is better than the other. But, Chan is not a sutra practice as evidenced by Bodhidharma saying: 'A special transmission outside the scriptures'.

Malcolm wrote:
This is statement dates from a text from http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/HistoricalZen/A_Special_Transmission.htm. While certainly it must have been a slogan circulating in Chan circles prior to this time, attributed to Bodhidharna, to paraphrase the way it shows up in Tibetan Chan texts "When one has ascertained the view, from then on do not rely on scriptures."

It is well known that Bodhidharma introduced his teachings in the context of the Lankāvatara Sūtra, which is a sūtra that contains the sudden method used in Chan.


Anonymous X said:
Furthermore, Chan also has its 'pointing out' emphasized in Zongmi's 10 Levels Of The Awakening Sequence, No. 1 being: The good friend shows the sentient being the true mind of original awakening. This is the first step as it is in Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
There is certainly a similarity, but again, in the Broughton book, this is not a direct introduction, this is more like someone hearing about the Perfection of Wisdom teachings and activating traces of having practiced Mahāyāna in a past life. It is also true that one will never even hear the word "Dzogchen" in this life without some past life connection with the teaching. Apart from these topographical similarities, however, I see no reason to assume that step 1 of Zongmi is identical in content to what we call direct introduction in Dzogchen without futher concrete evidence in how Chan/Zen is transmitted in the present day.

In brief, Both Chan and Dzogchen maintain they are "outside the scriptures." But this too is merely a topographical similarity. In the case of the former, it is outside sūtras, but depends on sūtras for its context. In the case of the latter, it is outside tantras, but depends on tantras for its context. So when we say that Chan is a sūtra teaching, it means that it is part of the Perfection Vehicle and all of its rhetoric turns on themes found in Mahāyāna sūtras. When we say that Dzogchen is a secret mantra teaching, it means it is part of secret mantra and all of its rhetoric turns on themes found in outer and inner tantras, with less attention paid to the three vehicles of characteristics.

There exists only one sustained discussion of the similarities and differences between Chan and Dzogchen in one text written by the Tibetan master, Nubchen Sanggye Yeshe, which is also one of our earliest sources for Dzogchen prior to the 10th century in Tibet. There is an interesting little book published recently by Van Schaik called Tibetan Zen: Discovering a Lost Tradition which will certainly add the conversation. However, the main point I am making is that Tibetans familiar with Chan grouped it in with the sūtrayāna while at the same time respecting that Chan termed itself a sudden path and a teaching nominally outside of the sūtras since it depended on experience rather than intellectual analysis. Dzogchen is also a path which depends on experience rather than intellectual analysis (but in fact the same may be said of all classes of tantra), but the contexts of the two teachings are really different because of the milieus in which each arose.

Whether a translation of Nubchen's text will prove interesting to Chan/Zen people is doubtful, because apparently the Chan in that text represents the long dead Northern School, and not a living tradition of Chan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 8:50 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Of course it did. No great Zen master can introduce you to Dzogchen teachings.

Jyotish said:
This part of buddha dharma is terribly confusing to me. If the final realization of all the mahayana is same buddha hood and same stages of bhumis,  why wouldnt a Zen teacher be able to introduce you to Dzogchen or similarly a Dzogchen teacher to teach zen?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, simply put, the buddhahood realized in Vajrayāna is deeper than the buddhahood realized in Mahāyāna because the means are different.

Mahāyāna only leads to the eleventh bhumi. Vajrayāna in general leads to the 13th bhumi, Vajradhara. What is the difference? According to the Saṃputa Tantra, buddhas of the eleventh and twelfth bhumis do not recognize all phenomena as being the display of their own pristine consciousness. This realization is confined to buddhas of the thirteenth bhumi. Of course, whether someone accepts this or not depends very much on whether one accepts the Saṃputa Tantra, a general commentary tantra on the mother tantras, as being valid. Why is there this difference? Because the paths or means are different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: Quick Questions about Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa
Content:
Kushi said:
Hi,

I wasn't entirely sure whether this should go in the Tantra Talk forum or not, but hopefully it's general enough to fly here in the Kagyu subforum. My questions are pretty basic. Does the Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra practice encompass any of the activities associated with the 6 Yogas of Naropa? Are the Completion Stage practices within this lineage tied to the Yidam, and are they substantially different from Completion Stage practices not practiced in a Mahamudra context?

Thank you!

- K

Malcolm wrote:
Five Fold Mahāmudra it is its own thing. Separate from the Six Yogas of Naropa. It is prevalent primarily in Drikung and Drugpa Kagyu since it is based on the teachings of Phagmodrupa.

Kushi said:
I see. And as its "own thing", is its implementation (in Drikung, anyway) generally understood to make something like the 6 Yogas obsolete?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is just a different system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 9:12 AM
Title: Re: Quick Questions about Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa
Content:
Kushi said:
Hi,

I wasn't entirely sure whether this should go in the Tantra Talk forum or not, but hopefully it's general enough to fly here in the Kagyu subforum. My questions are pretty basic. Does the Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra practice encompass any of the activities associated with the 6 Yogas of Naropa? Are the Completion Stage practices within this lineage tied to the Yidam, and are they substantially different from Completion Stage practices not practiced in a Mahamudra context?

Thank you!

- K

Malcolm wrote:
Five Fold Mahāmudra it is its own thing. Separate from the Six Yogas of Naropa. It is prevalent primarily in Drikung and Drugpa Kagyu since it is based on the teachings of Phagmodrupa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 9:08 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Lukeinaz said:
From Carefree Dignity:

"Rigpa means awareness. But this is not awareness that is dualistic, in terms of subject looking at object. It is nondual awareness."

He then later says rigpa is equivalent to mind essence.


Malcolm wrote:
The term rig pa is used as an equivalent for mind essence in Mahāmudra texts teachings. But we are not talking about Mahāmudra. We are talking about Dzogchen, not mahāmudra.


Lukeinaz said:
I just started this book but he talks a lot about dzogchen and has not mentioned mahamudra at all.

Malcolm wrote:
He does talk about mahamudra in this book. On page 33, he offers a useful distinction.

On page 67 he says, "When seeing the three qualities simultaneously, this is called seeing the nature of the mind. In Dzogchen, this is called rigpa, or you can call it the Dzogchen view."

Very clearly, he describes seeing the nature of the mind as rigpa. And I agree with this completely. Again, on 68, "When the clapper strikes the bell, it is like a moment of seeing the nature of the mind. That is rigpa."

When I read this book, I understand him to say that seeing the nature of the mind is rigpa. Therefore, I do not see a real difference between the essentials of what he is saying and what I am saying.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I decided to see how my man Guenther wound up translating "rigpa" in his final book.  Apparently he went with "supraconscious ecstatic intensity". What do you all think, yay or nay?
No takers?


Malcolm wrote:
Early Guenther is pure awareness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


zenman said:
You don't think shikantaza is a rigpa ripening practice?

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on whether the person is a Dzogchen practitioner or not. Rigpa in Dzogchen is something very precise and specific. I have never encountered such descriptions or instructions in Chan or Zen.

zenman said:
You mean separating rigpa and alaya vijnana?

Malcolm wrote:
They are definitely different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
zenman said:
I'm not talking about dzogchen "teachings" but rigpa.

What are you saying?

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa is just the start of the Dzogchen path, not the end. Rig pa must first be ripened, than cultivated, than brought to its full measure, etc.

zenman said:
You don't think shikantaza is a rigpa ripening practice?

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on whether the person is a Dzogchen practitioner or not. Rigpa in Dzogchen is something very precise and specific. I have never encountered such descriptions or instructions in Chan or Zen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Bronze vs Iron Phurba
Content:
Lhasa said:
I don't mind that the topic has strayed into practice.

Garchen Rinpoche just gave a two day empowerment of Vajrakilaya along with empowerment to use
a phurba and some instructions and demonstration, rather brief.
I've attended every Vajrakilaya empowerment/drubchen he has given online in the last five years.
This is the first time he has given instructions on using a phurba online. But it was very brief.

You all are being very helpful because it is almost impossible to ask him questions via email anymore.
Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
I would go with a phurba made from mixture of sky metal and a weapon that has killed someone. A light saber phurba would be cool too.

Ok, here is the real deal. According to the Vajrakīlaya Anudhamapratipana-tantra
Iron or black wood
is the material for a wrathful action phurba.
So now you have your answer. An iron kīla is what you need.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
Because that's what he's talking about. Don't get me wrong he talks about them in a sequential way to others I the book. But he also discussed them from a non gradual perspective too.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't see it. But I don't have the book, and I really do not have a horse in this race.


Crazywisdom said:
Look again
if everything has been realized as non-dual, even though there are differing grounds and paths, there is no gradual process of opening them up

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I addressed this point earlier. It is well known that in Gampopa's mahāmudra the paths and stages are regarded as little more than distractions, and not important. That still does not make the four yogas any less sequential. The error is asserting that the mapping of them to the paths and stages was definitive or even necessary. This is what freaked out the Sakyas —— "irresponsible" Kagyu yogis telling them they didn't need no stinkin paths or stages.

According to Gyalwa Yangonpa, the four yogas are for those who, in his words, cannot be in this state:
It is not soiled by experience and sensations, it is not corrupted by realization and certainty, it is not divided by view, meditation and conduct, it is not sectioned into a basis, path and result, all of these phenomena of appearance and existence, samsara and nirvana are neither removed nor added, bound nor freed, nor fixed with an antidote. Recognition of and self-liberation into one’s own state is called “mahāmudra.”
It is for people who do not experience buddhahood through intimate instructions; with respect to that, the four yogas are like thögal in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
zenman said:
I'm not talking about dzogchen "teachings" but rigpa.

What are you saying?

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa is just the start of the Dzogchen path, not the end. Rig pa must first be ripened, than cultivated, than brought to its full measure, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Bronze vs Iron Phurba
Content:
Mantrik said:
Can we please clarify here.

I know very little, but I think I understand what Malcolm is saying about readiness, and of course buying a scalpal does not make a person a surgeon.
However,  the topic was about the realtive qualities of materials, so it has strayed, as discussions do, into the performance of practice itself.

The person who decides if a practitioner is ready to perform lower activities is their Guru.

Nobody else can decide upon that.

Malcolm wrote:
The point I am making is that until one has gained siddhi, any phurba will do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


zenman said:
I am neither convinced of most zen masters out there but those who stand out of the mass can and do marvelously point out.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure they do a fine job of teaching Zen. Zen and Dzogchen are different.

zenman said:
Receiving di from Norbu Rinpoche didn't land me on a different place compared to couple of great zen masters.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it did. No great Zen master can introduce you to Dzogchen teachings. Direct introduction is the starting point of Dzogchen, just the beginning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Apparently you can do pretty well even without that inconvenient litte thing called "direct introduction".

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, lots of people have. But no one who is practicing Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, ok, still not sure why you think this renders the four yogas nonsequential.

Crazywisdom said:
Because that's what he's talking about. Don't get me wrong he talks about them in a sequential way to others I the book. But he also discussed them from a non gradual perspective too.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't see it. But I don't have the book, and I really do not have a horse in this race.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
None of the five skandhas are rig pa because rig pa is knowledge. You will never find a single text that includes knowledge, or ignorance for that matter, as one of the five aggregates.

aflatun said:
Could you expand on this point a bit, Malcolm? Are you saying knowledge (rig pa) is something outside of the aggregates? Similarly for ignorance?

(I'm not implying that's what you're saying, in fact I don't think it is, which is why I'm asking for clarification)

If its not "something outside" of them then what is it?
I'm just bumping this because I'm assuming it fell off the radar, sorry for the nuisance

Malcolm wrote:
Knowledge and ignorance are modes of cognition. Vidyā is a undeceived cognition Avidyā is a deceived cognition. It is really that simple.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:32 AM
Title: Re: Bronze vs Iron Phurba
Content:
michaelb said:
Yes, of course. So, the phurbu is not "just a chunk of matter" once one has accomplished any yidam, not just Vajrakilaya? By "lower activities" (smad las?) are you referring to specific smad las practices or any use of a phurbu, such as the bsgral ba offering in tshogs feasts? I suppose what I am asking is, you are not saying that accomplishing Vajrakilaya is necessary before you can use a phurbu in any practice, are you?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, the offering of liberation is performed by the Guru in behalf of the group. Even so it is symbolic and not really the lower activity.

And no I am not saying that no one can use a phurba before having finished a retreat. But it is little crazy to get all worried about what kind of phurba one should get based on its use by a siddhi prior to having attained siddhi oneself.

michaelb said:
Yes but, if one accomplishes Hayagriva, for example, one can use a phurbu in lower activities of Hayagriva?


Malcolm wrote:
Of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Bronze vs Iron Phurba
Content:
michaelb said:
Is it only accomplishment doing Vajrakilaya? What about other yidams where phurbus are used, like Hayagriva?

Malcolm wrote:
The siddhi of Kilaya is accomplished by doing KIlaya. The siddhi of Hayagriva is accomplished by doing Hayagriva.
Generally, before one is permitted to engage in the lower activities with wrathful implements like a kīla, it is assumed that at least one has finished the accomplishment retreat.

michaelb said:
Yes, of course. So, the phurbu is not "just a chunk of matter" once one has accomplished any yidam, not just Vajrakilaya? By "lower activities" (smad las?) are you referring to specific smad las practices or any use of a phurbu, such as the bsgral ba offering in tshogs feasts? I suppose what I am asking is, you are not saying that accomplishing Vajrakilaya is necessary before you can use a phurbu in any practice, are you?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, the offering of liberation is performed by the Guru in behalf of the group. Even so it is symbolic and not really the lower activity.

And no I am not saying that no one can use a phurba before having finished a retreat. But it is little crazy to get all worried about what kind of phurba one should get based on its use by a siddhi prior to having attained siddhi oneself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
The production from realization is a person who has training; it is spoken of as the sahaja luminosity, un-outflowed empti- ness to be seen in direct perception. It is spoken of as the dharmin which is mutually reliant on both types of bodhicitta. Geshe Gyayon Dag said to me, “In Tibet, there is a dearth of dharmas which have been sweetened for easy digestion like food chewed before giving it to a child. For example, there is the so-called “Dzogpa Chenpo” of one group which who say, “If you realize it in the morning, you are a buddha in the morning and if you realize it in the evening you are a buddha in the evening”. And there is the the so-called “Characteris- tics” of one group who say, “If dissection is done using free.

from one and many, I will by this be buddha”. And there is the so-called called “Paramita” of one group who say, “Rely- ing on method and prajñå, I will by this be buddha”. And there is the so-called “Mantra” of one group who say, “Rely- ing on the channels, winds, and drops and development and completion, I will by this be a buddha”. And there is the so- called “Kadampa” of one group who say, “There are the oral instructions for relying on the three beings great, middling 194 I will by this be buddha.” The whole lot of them are mis- taken; I dare them to give me a reply, what are you doing?!” He said, “The whole lot of them are mistaken; they are not doing anything except for changing from the ten non-virtues to the ten virtues!” He said, “Those with greater intelligence will change from outflowed virtue to unoutflowed virtue! He said, “There is a group who say, “The ten non-virtues will not contaminate me!”; they have befriended evil deeds!”.

He said, “The Buddha taught eighty four thousand dharma doors. If the whole lot are summed up, they condense down to body, speech, and mind. And moreover, body and speech even are retinue. The principal one is mind.” He said, “Not even one moment of non-virtue should be done. And do not lose yourself either to one moment of indeterminacy from the perspective of the antidote”. He said, “I heard rinpoche say, “It is necessary to travel the three types of path: inference has to be made into path; blessings have to be made into the path; and direct perception has to be made into the path. He said, “Characteristic or Påramitå is the one that makes inference into the path. Great Vehicle Secret Mantra makes, through reliance on the pair development and completion, blessings into the path. The one that makes direct perception into the path is co-emergence, luminosity.”


Malcolm wrote:
Yeah, ok, still not sure why you think this renders the four yogas nonsequential.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


zenman said:
I guess you never met a zen master one on one in sanzen (sometimes translated as meditation meeting).

Malcolm wrote:
It is not the same thing. Direct introduction is something very precise and specific.

Also, I am not convinced the caliber of so called Zen masters in the west is very high.

zenman said:
I am neither convinced of most zen masters out there but those who stand out of the mass can and do marvelously point out.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure they do a fine job of teaching Zen. Zen and Dzogchen are different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 2:58 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
P 97



Malcolm wrote:
I do not see evidence for your assertion in this summary. Just saying...

Crazywisdom said:
He says, no gradual process of opening up...  he mentions no bardo for the best. This passage is Sahaja with no stages. There are many mentions of Sahaja in the text.


Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, still seems sequential to me. The absence of bardo for the best is the same in all teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
P 97
“For the four yogas, the yoga of one pointedness is that moment of awareness where there is no stoppage of the clarity. The yoga of freedom from elaboration is that rigpa’s entity is seen as birthless. There is no hope upwards to buddhahood, no concern downwards to saîsåra, and in between with no grasping to appearances, no being deceived by other. The yoga of one taste is that you realize the insepa- rability of appearance and emptiness. The yoga of non- meditation is that, whichever comes forth, whichever is produced, it shines forth in one entity thus, everything at the time of the thought process comes as meditation.”

Malcolm wrote:
I do not see evidence for your assertion in this summary. Just saying...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
.... Dzogchen.... nor without the inconvenient litte thing called "direct introduction," which is absent both in Sūtra in general, and Zen/Chan.

zenman said:
I guess you never met a zen master one on one in sanzen (sometimes translated as meditation meeting).

Malcolm wrote:
It is not the same thing. Direct introduction is something very precise and specific.

Also, I am not convinced the caliber of so called Zen masters in the west is very high.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


Anonymous X said:
I wasn't implying that nature of mind was separate. I thought I had implicitly stated that. From what you wrote, I see no difference in Zongmi's teaching of his Chan gate.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, for some people it is hard to see the difference between Chan and Dzogchen. But their approaches are quite different, and for this one has to look to those Tibetan masters who practiced both.

The difference in approach is based on whether you are a Sūtra practitioner or a Secret Mantra practitioner. In some respect, whether you practice sūtra or tantra is a little irrelevant if you are studying with real Dzogchen master. But because Dzogchen is grounded in Secret Mantra, one cannot practice it without a guru, nor without the inconvenient litte thing called "direct introduction," which is absent both in Sūtra in general, and Zen/Chan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: Bronze vs Iron Phurba
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
No matter what material your phurba is made of, if you have not attained the siddhi of kilaya it is just a chunk of matter.

michaelb said:
Is it only accomplishment doing Vajrakilaya? What about other yidams where phurbus are used, like Hayagriva?


Malcolm wrote:
The siddhi of Kilaya is accomplished by doing KIlaya. The siddhi of Hayagriva is accomplished by doing Hayagriva.

Generally, before one is permitted to engage in the lower activities with wrathful implements like a kīla, it is assumed that at least one has finished the accomplishment retreat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Original mind ( gnyug sems, adyācitta ), on the other hand, refers to the basic state of a moment of unfabricated clear and empty consciousness. It is also called ordinary consciousness ( tha mal gyi shes pa ). However, there is no nature of the mind separate from the mind. Sustaining equipoise in unfabricated clear and empty consciousness is what is termed "the view" in Dzogchen, Mahāmudra, Lamdre, etc. This unfabricated clear and empty consciousness is the basis upon which rests the path of Secret Mantra.

treehuggingoctopus said:
You are referring to rigpa qua instant presence, right?

Malcolm wrote:
If you have this experience, then that can be called knowledge of this state, so yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 30th, 2017 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Tony Duff has a text on Gampopa Mahamudra where all this is reiterated as nauseam

Malcolm wrote:
Ganges Mahāmudra is not the tradition of the four yogas.

Four yogas is Gampopa's innovation applied to Saraha's tradition.

Crazywisdom said:
That's true. I didn't really learn Gampopa mahamudra


Malcolm wrote:
Well, check the title of the thread.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Bronze vs Iron Phurba
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No matter what material your phurba is made of, if you have not attained the siddhi of kilaya it is just a chunk of matter.

Arnoud said:
If it is a terma Phurba, then it can have magical properties?

Malcolm wrote:
Not in the hands of a beginner.  For a beginner, a phurpa is a shrine object, something to be taken to a teacher and blessed and put away until they can drive a wooden phurba into a rock.

Also, to attain the siddhi of phurba you do not need a phurba. You just need a māla.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Lukeinaz said:
From Carefree Dignity:

"Rigpa means awareness. But this is not awareness that is dualistic, in terms of subject looking at object. It is nondual awareness."

He then later says rigpa is equivalent to mind essence.


Malcolm wrote:
The term rig pa is used as an equivalent for mind essence in Mahāmudra texts teachings. But we are not talking about Mahāmudra. We are talking about Dzogchen, not mahāmudra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
Over the years I must have read these passages more than a hundred times, I think. Still not sure if I am getting them right. The gist of Rinpoche's explanation of why rigpa =/= nature of the mind seems to me to be something like that:

(1) sems-nyid is a term found in all HYT, rigpa is a strictly Dzogchen thing;

Malcolm wrote:
No, because it is found also in Mahāmudra teachings, especially translations of Mahāmudra texts by Vairocanarakṣita, an Indian master  lived in Tibet in the 11th century and translated these texts into Tibetan independently.

treehuggingoctopus said:
The last passage of Rinpoche's, however, seems to identify rigpa as both the Base ("Rigpa means that underlying condition of essence, nature, and energy of which the individual has had no experience up to now, with which he's not had contact") and the direct, lived knowledge of the Base ("Now the teacher has put him in contact with it, given him that experience, and now he has lived it or perceived it. Now, that experience, however minimal, that which is now perceived, that's what we're calling rigpa")*. Frankly, there are many early texts of Rinpoche's in which the Base and rigpa are depicted like that. If the translated into English and published texts and teaching transcripts of ChNN are in any way representative here, Rinpoche starts to consistently define rigpa as our knowledge (in the sense of "being in") of our primordial state towards the end of the 1990s. Or so has my amateur textual study led me to believe.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you can find these distinctions made in the famous green book, etc. The hardbound manuscripts of teachings in US in the early '80's.



treehuggingoctopus said:
*One could also read it it like that:

(5) sems-nyid is a concept which refers to the Base before we have recognised it, rigpa can be meaningfully used to refer to it only after we have recognised our real nature.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

There is this ambiguity in some texts. But when one has a comprehensive understanding of the man ngag sde tradition as a whole and how that term is used within it, this is no longer so confusing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:



Anonymous X said:
In another thread, I mentioned 'knowing' as the nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
I am afraid that without triangulating terms with Sanskrit, comparisons between Dzogchen texts and Zen texts amount to an exercise in chasing one's tail.

Anonymous X said:
Because different schools use different approaches and terminology, it is not a bad idea to see the same thing from a different point of view. This Knowing is also called jnana, but I don't like to use that term because it is often mixed up with Advaitic meaning and their world view.

Malcolm wrote:
You are correct to observe that one should refrain from mixing Advaita usages into Buddhist usages.

Jn̄āna is generally translated into Tibetan as ye shes (depending on context) then from there into English as wisdom, primordial wisdom, timeless awareness, pristine awareness, pristine gnosis, or pristine consciousness, etc.

Anonymous X said:
Personally, I don't see the difference in meaning, just the interpretation. Some people would also call this Knowing, Awareness. I don't need to analyze the words as the presence of Knowing is all encompassing.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dzogchen tradition has very precise definitions and introduces its own psychology into the mix. Vidyā, which refers to a very specific kind of knowledge, is not always present, it is conditional until it is cultivated to the point where it eclipses ignorance completely.


Anonymous X said:
One might think, 'substance'? Substance is not a thing. It cannot be apprehended. True Mind is Buddha Mind is Primordial Mind. Knowing illuminates each thing and reveals the essential emptiness, which is infinitely Open and free of all views.

Malcolm wrote:
Original mind ( gnyug sems, adyācitta ), on the other hand, refers to the basic state of a moment of unfabricated clear and empty consciousness. It is also called ordinary consciousness ( tha mal gyi shes pa ). However, there is no nature of the mind separate from the mind. Sustaining equipoise in unfabricated clear and empty consciousness is what is termed "the view" in Dzogchen, Mahāmudra, Lamdre, etc. This unfabricated clear and empty consciousness is the basis upon which rests the path of Secret Mantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
bc Dzogchen texts are pulled out of thin air

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, this is not true at all. The five early lungs brought to Tibet by Vairocana are authentic. Garab Dorje, Mañjuśrimitra are historical persons. Śrī Simha is called out by name by later Indians who were upset that he was part of a movement at Nalanda in the mid 8th century that dissed the creation stage, etc. Śrī Simha's commentary on the rDo rje sems dpa' nam mha' che is definitely authentic —— it is mentioned by name by Nubchen Sanggye Yeshe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Tony Duff has a text on Gampopa Mahamudra where all this is reiterated as nauseam

Malcolm wrote:
Ganges Mahāmudra is not the tradition of the four yogas.

Four yogas is Gampopa's innovation applied to Saraha's tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 10:46 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
I'm aware there's more than one teaching lineage within Drikung. .

Malcolm wrote:
Gyalpo Rinpoche has them all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 10:29 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:


Crazywisdom said:
They emphasize single moment understandings for everything from 6 Paramitas to 3 turnings to four yogas, gongchig  etc, etc. one moment one intent one view, meditation, action and one realization. All one single moment.

Malcolm wrote:
The Drikungs depend on Dzogchen for their final mahāmudra view, in fact. But this is hard for them to openly admit. You will see this when the Essence of Mahāyāna is published by the Garchen Institute in Europe. They recruited me to do the the mahāmudra section.

Gyalpo Rinpoche's presentation of the four yogas is derived from Longchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 10:26 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Personally, I kind of like the word "awareness".

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as a translation of saṃprājana, it is quite alright. As a translation of rigpa it is totally and utterly wrong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 10:25 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The place to start that correction is correcting their use of the word "awareness" vis  rigpa.

michaelb said:
But as long as people want rigpa to refer to something like semnyi or Buddha Mind they will keep calling it something like awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
Then they should continue to be corrected until they stop.


michaelb said:
If there's a problem with Dharma being confused with advaita that's not because of a mistranslation of rigpa but because of a misunderstanding of the ground.

Malcolm wrote:
A mistranslation of rigpa is one of the main reasons there is such confusion, in my opinion.

michaelb said:
Anyway, I think we are in basic agreement. I've always said knowledge is a better translation but using awareness doesn't, in itself, invalidate Harris's presentation of dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
If he thinks rigpa is the basis, this in itself invalidates his presentation of Dzogchen from the start.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 10:22 AM
Title: Re: Bronze vs Iron Phurba
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No matter what material your phurba is made of, if you have not attained the siddhi of kilaya it is just a chunk of matter.

Fortyeightvows said:
No sympathetic magic?
Also, what is the siddhi of kilaya?


Malcolm wrote:
You should receive the empowerment and do the practice. This is the only way you will find out in a real sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 9:23 AM
Title: Re: Bronze vs Iron Phurba
Content:
Grigoris said:
Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, bronze is an alloy of copper and tin.  The end effect is basically the same (a gold-ish colour) and it is the colour that counts in the specific instance, as it is associated with the Ratna Buddha family in both instances.

Malcolm wrote:
No matter what material your phurba is made of, if you have not attained the siddhi of kilaya it is just a chunk of matter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
The point, it seems to me, is that people think that rigpa refers to the nature of mind rather than the knowledge of the nature of mind. They take is as like a synonym for Buddha Nature rather than just the recognition of that.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and they are mistaken to do so. ChNN states over and over again that rig pa is not the nature of the mind.

michaelb said:
Yes, I know, I listen. It's just the strange prominence the word Rigpa has amongst western Dharma students. It's promoted more than other dzogchen terms and ideas. I blame Sogyal Rinpoche. People should actually be more interested in the ground, nature of mind, what we really are. If someone goes off on an advaita trip about it, that needs correcting rather than their use of the word Awareness.

Malcolm wrote:
The place to start that correction is correcting their use of the word "awareness" vis  rigpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 8:22 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Crazywisdom said:
Btw, four yogas are one in a single moment, at least for the Drikung

Malcolm wrote:
This is not how Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche explains it. I have received the Drikung take on the four yogas from him personally, one on one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 8:21 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
TaTa said:
Sooo whats the difference?

Crazywisdom said:
Rather, these
Are deeper

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Four_Dharmas_of_Gampopa

The Four Dharmas of Gampopa (Tib. དྭགས་པོ་་ཆོས་བཞི་, Wyl. dwags po chos bzhi)

lo chö su dro war chin gyi lop
Grant your blessing so that my mind may turn towards the Dharma.

chö lam du dro war chin gyi lop
Grant your blessing so that Dharma may progress along the path.

lam trul wa shyik par chin gyi lop
Grant your blessing so that the path may clarify confusion.

trulpa yeshé su char war chin gyi lop
Grant your blessing so that confusion may dawn as wisdom.

༈ བློ་ཆོས་སུ་འགྲོ་བར་བྱིན་གྱིས་རློབས། །

ཆོས་ལམ་དུ་འགྲོ་བར་བྱིན་གྱིས་རློབས། །

ལམ་འཁྲུལ་བ་ཞིག་པར་བྱིན་གྱིས་རློབས། །

འཁྲུལ་པ་ཡེ་ཤེས་སུ་འཆར་བར་བྱིན་གྱིས་རློབས། །

Johnny Dangerous said:
Are these specifically from Gampopa or a rephrase of something more universal? I am familiar with a slightly different translation of this from Sakya stuff. Meaning, are they attributed solely to him, or are they stuff he ..sort of synthesized? Or, have they simply been adopted by basically everyone?

Malcolm wrote:
This is Gampopa's verse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 8:20 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
The point, it seems to me, is that people think that rigpa refers to the nature of mind rather than the knowledge of the nature of mind. They take is as like a synonym for Buddha Nature rather than just the recognition of that.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and they are mistaken to do so. ChNN states over and over again that rig pa is not the nature of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
What if the natural state is (gasp) ordinary?

Malcolm wrote:
How very Shambhalian of you.

PuerAzaelis said:
Hm unfortunately I can't afford to be quite that ordinary.

Malcolm wrote:
True, their "ordinary" has become quite pricey.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


Stewart said:
Hence why I didn't elaborate further.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, I was referring to dzogchungpa's desire for gossip.

Stewart said:
Fair enough.

To be clear, I was simply commenting that a short video really doesn't do justice to Mingyur Rinpoche's style and ability to transmit inimate instructions.

I never met Tulku Urgyen, but I've been told by one of his students that Mingyur Rinpoche emulates TUR perfectly.

Interestingly, as you know, TUR never spoke English, yet succeeded in transmitting Dzogchen to hundreds of students. I'm unsure his translator used/uses 'knowledge' as a translation of rig pa, but through the thorough explanations and introductions by TUR, many people had a concrete experience of their natural state.


Malcolm wrote:
How many people have cruised through here, including people who have gone to this and that Dzogchen master (ChNN, TUR, YMR, Tsoknyi, etc.), convinced that the "awareness" neo-advaitans talk about is the same thing as rig pa?

What is important is that someone learns what rig pa is. This is why I do not translate the word, why EPK does not translate it anymore, why Adriano Clemente does not translate it, and so on. But if we are going to explain what the word means in English, it clearly means "knowledge" and "knowing", and not awareness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
Your point being?

Malcolm wrote:
That point being that is purely vicarious and serves no useful purpose.

Stewart said:
Hence why I didn't elaborate further.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, I was referring to dzogchungpa's desire for gossip.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Teachings of the previous buddhas
Content:
zenman said:
Have teachings of the buddhas previous to Shakyamuni have been preserved? Any idea when they might have lived? I remember reading that some of the recent Tibetan buddhist masters have been close students of Shakyamuni in their previous lives. Anyone of them ever referred to the previous buddhas as being students of them? Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
According to tradition, the virtually Dzogchen tantras are said to have been taught by past Buddhas and then restated by Garab Dorje.

Garab Dorje also shows as a student of these buddhas in his previous emanations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Now I'm kind of curious about the "various reasons" TD no longer translates for MR and TR.

Malcolm wrote:
This is pure gossip.

dzogchungpa said:
Your point being?

Malcolm wrote:
That point being that is purely vicarious and serves no useful purpose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Now I'm kind of curious about the "various reasons" TD no longer translates for MR and TR.

Malcolm wrote:
This is pure gossip.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Stewart said:
I don't think it's fair to judge Mingyur Rinpoche from a 5 minute video

Malcolm wrote:
Of course not.

But when discussing such translation issues with me, people often bring up how this or that lama translates this or that thing, and if I don't agree, am I supposed to remain silent? Of course, I cannot remain silent since the whole point of the exercise was to try and negate my point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
PuerAzaelis said:
What if the natural state is (gasp) ordinary?

Malcolm wrote:
How very Shambhalian of you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Jyotish said:
Many people in spiritual market use the word awareness.  Some say choice less awareness some say observerawareness.

Malcolm wrote:
It is still conditioned and relative.

michaelb said:
I think there is a problem of terminology here. If someone is using awareness, non-dual awareness, selfless awareness or whatever to denote rigpa, as "none of the five skandhas are rig pa", then awareness, as they mean it, is not conditioned and relative.

Malcolm wrote:
None of the five skandhas are rig pa because rig pa is knowledge. You will never find a single text that includes knowledge, or ignorance for that matter, as one of the five aggregates.


michaelb said:
Take Sam Harris, for example. He could have directly perceived the nature of mind when it was pointed out to him by Tulku Urgyen. He could refer to this non-dual unconditioned knowledge as "awareness". His use of this word does not mean his experience was conditioned and relative.

Malcolm wrote:
All experience is conditioned and relative. There is no such as an experience which is not conditioned and relative.


michaelb said:
One could argue the same of Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche. Just because he teaches about awareness a lot, doesn't mean he has no realisation and his understanding is just conditioned and relative.

Malcolm wrote:
Apart from pointing out that use of language can either enhance or impede one's message, I have never commented about YMR's state of realization or understanding, except to remark that in Tibetan I am sure his teachings are perfect.


michaelb said:
I agree that using words accurately is important but that can only take you so far and denying people's knowledge or understanding because they choose a word that we may not choose is going too far.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but I did not do that.

michaelb said:
They alone know their experience and what they have understood following their lama's instruction is not knowable by us.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not why I have doubts about Sam Harris. I appears to me that he thinks Dzogchen is an exotic, Tibetan form of Vipassana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 29th, 2017 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Jyotish said:
Many people in spiritual market use the word awareness.  Some say choice less awareness some say observerawareness.

Malcolm wrote:
It is still conditioned and relative.

Anonymous X said:
Can you explain how awareness is conditioned and relative?

Malcolm wrote:
Awareness (saṃprajāna) is a mental factor (caitta) which is always associated with mindfulness (smṛti). Mental factors arise simultaneously with a mind. There is no other "awareness" spoken of in Buddhadharma.

The mind (citta), consciousness (vijñāna), or intellect (manas) is a conditioned (saṃskrita) entity by nature, and so too are mental factors.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 7:50 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Jyotish said:
Many people in spiritual market use the word awareness.  Some say choice less awareness some say observerawareness.

Malcolm wrote:
It is still conditioned and relative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 7:48 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
I was wondering a few things since last night. Firstly, is it the case that when Harris (or Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche) say "awareness" are they always implying Rigpa? Take the video I linked earlier with Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche. If we substitute his use of awareness for the word Rigpa we get things like this:
"Rigpa is with us all the time; whether you have thought or not, whether you have emotion or not, whether your mind is distracted or not, whether you become unconscious or not, rigpa is always there. But the main point is that we have to realise our rigpa, recognise our rigpa."

This shows the limit to using awareness as a translation for rigpa as we are using awareness for three different things: ordinary deluded awareness, nature of mind and understanding of nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because when one is unconsciousness one is necessarily unaware. If one is aware, one is necessarily conscious.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dreambow said:
Can we say aware of awareness?

Malcolm wrote:
No more than we can say a "walking walker."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 7:45 PM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dreambow said:
Can we say aware of awareness?

michaelb said:
Yep, we might say rang rig or rang gi rigpa, self awareness or more correctly (?) knowledge of self. Maybe intrinsic awareness.

Which of the five skandhas would rigpa, rang rig, or even semnyid be?


Malcolm wrote:
Rang gi means "one's own"; in Tibetan; it is the genitive case, showing possession. Thus, rang gi rig means "one's rig pa." I'll spare you the citation avalanche.

None of the five skandhas are rig pa. However, in one usage, rig pa refers to the mind's capacity to know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 11:54 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dreambow said:
You say um no, that's no argument...I can say um yes. Will that convince you?

Malcolm wrote:
No, because awareness is mundane and conditioned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 11:50 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dreambow said:
As I see it Sam Harris leans towards Dzogchen. The unadorned truth is awareness or just be...not this or that or any added adjunct.


Malcolm wrote:
Um no


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 9:24 AM
Title: Re: Seventeen Tantras Volume 1 & 2
Content:
DGA said:
Congratulations, Malcolm, on this publication.  I hope it finds its audience.  I'm glad Wisdom is getting behind these projects.

Meanwhile...

Malcolm wrote:
The first division includes the three essential tantras: the Self-Arisen Vidyā, the Self-Liberated Vidyā, and the Without Syllables. If one knows these three, one will have command over the general meaning of the tantras, like a king who has command over his subjects.
-- Longchenpa.

DGA said:
I'm ignorant of these texts (for now).  The upcoming volume will contain translations of the first two tantras, correct?  Will the third one, Without Syllables, also find print in English?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is the plan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
rangjung yeshe?

Malcolm wrote:
Rang byung ye shes means a pristine consciousness that one discovers for onself. It can also mean a pristine consciousness for which no evident cause may be found when it is discovered. In general however, rang byung is short for rang las byung, arising from oneself.

michaelb said:
How does rangjung yeshe relate to rigpa and what Sam Harris calls (inter alia) awareness?

Malcolm wrote:
ye she is a property of rig pa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:


anjali said:
It seems to me that as one gains more stability in rigpa with fewer selfish emotions (and lessening of self-cherishing in general), then that in turn should lead to some tangible behavioral results.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a function of cultivating knowledge of one's primordial state, not merely having a glimpse of it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 6:25 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
Huh? Talk about moving the goal posts. Of course translating a list of five areas of knowledge or study, knowledge is a better way to refer to them than awareness, but this is a just jargon, and jargon unrelated to dzogchen's rigpa, unless you think science is preferable to knowledge? Anyway, seriously enough of this. I concede the point - knowledge is better than awareness but only because then marigpa can be ignorance.

Malcolm wrote:
You are incorrect, look at the citation I provided for you from a commentary attributed to Vimalamitra on one of the seventeen tantras:

Again:
Furthermore, based on the power of repelling the armies of samsara, vidyā (rig pa) is 1) the knowledge (vidyā) of names designated by words, 2) helpful, worldly knowledge such as healing, arts and crafts, and so on, 3) the five sciences (rig pa gnas lnga) of the treatises and so on, 4) knowing (vidyā) as a factor of consciousness, 5) sharp and dull worldly knowledge and so on, and 6) the knowledge of the essence (snying po) that permeates all that is free from ignorance, unobscured by the obscurations of ignorance and so on.
All of these things are included under the term vidyā in Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
rangjung yeshe?

Malcolm wrote:
Rang byung ye shes means a pristine consciousness that one discovers for onself. It can also mean a pristine consciousness for which no evident cause may be found when it is discovered. In general however, rang byung is short for rang las byung, arising from oneself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Grigoris said:
Let me be clear that I am not talking about expectations about the nature of the experience, but the effect of the experience itself on one's mind stream.

Malcolm wrote:
There are a lot of people who have had such a glimpse, and then do not cultivate it. Those who do may experience some transformation of their basic attitudes. Those who don't, not so much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
.For example, the consciousness at the time of the basis is certainly aware. However, it is only when it knows it's own appearances are its own state, that we can say that consciousness has rig pa, a state of knowledge. If it fails in this recognition, one's consciousness is still aware of those appearances, but in this case since it does not know those appearances are its own state, that consciousness has ma rig pa instead, a state of ignorance.

michaelb said:
For example, the consciousness at the time of the basis is certainly aware. However, it is only when it is aware it's own appearances are its own state, that we can say that consciousness has rig pa, a state of awareness. If it fails in this recognition, one's consciousness is still aware of those appearances, but in this case since it is not aware those appearances are its own state, that consciousness has ma rig pa instead, a state of ignorance
I know and I'm aware I'm pushing the point a bit  (it would work if you have two different words for mistaken cognition and unmistaken cognition) but it's not such a massive error.

Malcolm wrote:
Your reframing of my statement fails because awareness is always present when there is consciousness, but knowledge is not always present when there is consciousness and awareness. It really is that simple.

Further, there is no such thing as the five awarenesses. There is such a thing as the five sciences (pañcavidyāsthana).

Another problem with your defense of "awareness" as a proper translation of vidyā/rig pa is that it does not correspond even with respect to common language. Absolutely no one says "I am aware of how to drive" when they mean "I know how to drive." They do not say, "I am aware of how to tie my shows" when they mean "I know how to tie my shoes."

Even when we examine the root of "to know," according to the OED, we find the word descends from Old English cnāwan (earlier gecnāwan) ‘recognize, identify,’ of Germanic origin.

Aware, on the other hand comes from "Old English waru ‘commodities,’ of Germanic origin, having the primary sense ‘object of care.’ Hence awareness is far more apt for shes bzhin, the mate of mindfulness, dran pa.

michaelb said:
...other than Harris's mistranslation of rigpa (and views on science, geopolitics and Islam), discredits his presentation of dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
He has no idea what he is talking about in a real sense since he thinks the cit of Advaita and rig pa are fundamentally the same. In fact, that latter is an acquired knowledge, and the former is just consciousness mistaken for a permanent entity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 4:42 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Mantrik said:
It is not so clear cut in English. Knowledge can mean being aware that something exists, so you are correct in that, as it is one of the definitions.  However, it can also be defined as understanding, which is different.
I believe that here it is the case that awareness of something is not the same as understanding it, knowing about it, hence the vocab difference.

michaelb said:
Sure, but then understanding would be a better word. Awareness can also connote understanding, knowledge, recognition, cognition, etc. You can be aware of details, differences, characteristics, good points, bad points, whatever.  I agree that knowledge is better, largely because it is the opposite of ignorance but anyway, it's not really a big deal, which is why, on balance, Sam Harris using awareness (he uses loads of other words, too) isn't proof that his presentation of dzogchen is flawed. I'm not saying that proof doesn't exist but mistranslating one word isn't it.

Malcolm wrote:
Sam Harris's Dzogchen is stuck in early '90's translations. It is 25 years out of date.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Grigoris said:
One would expect that a glimpse of the true nature of mind should/would have some pretty "tangible" results.

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of expectation gets students into a lot of trouble.

Grigoris said:
Taking a dump has an effect on one's mental state, and expect me to believe that seeing one's true nature (the transition from avidya to vidya, even momentarily) does not effect one's mental state?  I find that hard to believe.

Malcolm wrote:
I was addressing the notion of expectation of psychological change. For example, you have said you cannot deal with DC people, you think they are jerks. ChNN says that he has met a lot of students of a lot of teachers, and in his opinion, his own students have the best overall grasp of Dzogchen and rig pa. So there you go. One might assume that in your case, an experience of the nature of mind might have the effect of lessening your intensely judgmental personality. I see no evidence of this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Grigoris said:
One would expect that a glimpse of the true nature of mind should/would have some pretty "tangible" results.

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of expectation gets students into a lot of trouble.

conebeckham said:
Indeed it does.

Yongay Mingyur Rinpoche, in the course of pointing out instructions, would often comment as to how we all likely have experienced such moments of "clarity," at times in our life.  But until one recognizes the significance of such moments, due to the skill of a qualified teacher, one attaches no particular importance to such moments of "clarity."  I suppose one could say there is no "Vidya" until one actually has the "knowledge" of the significance of such moments.  But once it's known, one must stabilize...and therein lies the rub, right?   Conditioning is so strong, Samsara and habit are so strong--that one conceptualizes and reifies such moments, and deludes oneself that one has "achieved something" or has produced a result.  Or worse.  That's my sense, at least.


Malcolm wrote:
There is a commentary which states that the difference between buddhas and sentient beings is that the vidyā or rigpa of buddhas is continuous, whereas the vidyā of sentient beings is fragmented.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
To have knowledge is to have awareness and vice versa. But, in any case, whatever word is chosen, some explanation is necessary, as rigpa is a technical term used specifically in dzogchen as well as a common word used in other contexts.

Malcolm wrote:
I disagree about knowledge = awareness. To be conscious is to be aware. Awareness is a quality of consciousness. Knowledge is something else. For example, the consciousness at the time of the basis is certainly aware. However, it is only when it knows it's own appearances are its own state, that we can say that consciousness has rig pa, a state of knowledge. If it fails in this recognition, one's consciousness is still aware of those appearances, but in this case since it does not know those appearances are its own state, that consciousness has ma rig pa instead, a state of ignorance.

Awareness is present in both rig pa and ma rig pa since knowledge and ignorance are the knowledge and ignorance of a consciousness. According to the definition you provide, awareness cannot be present in ma rig pa, it will be a state of unconsciousness. But even ignorant minds are consciousness and aware. Since awareness is in fact a quality of consciousness, awareness is found states of both knowledge and ignorance.

This is why it is important to separate Dharma language from common parlance.

Mantrik said:
So an understanding of the nature of oneself being aware is rig pa?

Malcolm wrote:
I did not say that. But it is a start.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
To have knowledge is to have awareness and vice versa. But, in any case, whatever word is chosen, some explanation is necessary, as rigpa is a technical term used specifically in dzogchen as well as a common word used in other contexts.

Malcolm wrote:
I disagree about knowledge = awareness. To be conscious is to be aware. Awareness is a quality of consciousness. Knowledge is something else. For example, the consciousness at the time of the basis is certainly aware. However, it is only when it knows it's own appearances are its own state, that we can say that consciousness has rig pa, a state of knowledge. If it fails in this recognition, one's consciousness is still aware of those appearances, but in this case since it does not know those appearances are its own state, that consciousness has ma rig pa instead, a state of ignorance.

Awareness is present in both rig pa and ma rig pa since knowledge and ignorance are the knowledge and ignorance of a consciousness. According to the definition you provide, awareness cannot be present in ma rig pa, it will be a state of unconsciousness. But even ignorant minds are consciousness and aware. Since awareness is in fact a quality of consciousness, awareness is found states of both knowledge and ignorance.

This is why it is important to separate Dharma language from common parlance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Interesting, thanks. CTR goes on in the text to connect this to "first thought, best thought", a phrase that comes up a lot in his teachings:

Malcolm wrote:
No, not exactly. When the neutral consciousness that arises with the rising of the compassion aspect of the basis (which is defined in Dzogchen tantras as personal and individual) recognizes its appearances as it's own state, this is recognition is called "rig pa." However, prior to this recognition or non recognition, this neutral consciousness possesses two of the three ignorances (ma rig pa). If this neutral consciousness does not recognize its own appearances, this non-recognition is the imputing ma rig pa, which initiates the process of development of what are called the "six intellects," grouped under the name "sems."

If CTR had said, "Before sem even begins to work, there is a chance at a first glimpse of reality, called rik pa" then I would agree..

dzogchungpa said:
Well, I think we can chalk it up to poetic license.

Malcolm wrote:
I changed my post slightly while you were replying. That said, I have almost no use for poets. However, as it says in the Hagakure, minor failures are permissible in major undertakings...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: The four contemplations and gampopa's mahamudra
Content:
Grigoris said:
One would expect that a glimpse of the true nature of mind should/would have some pretty "tangible" results.

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of expectation gets students into a lot of trouble.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Interesting, thanks. CTR goes on in the text to connect this to "first thought, best thought", a phrase that comes up a lot in his teachings: Rikpa is the clearest and most precise discovery. Before sem even begins to work, rikpa has a first glimpse of reality.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not exactly. When the neutral consciousness that arises with the rising of the  compassion aspect of the basis (which is defined in Dzogchen tantras as personal and individual) recognizes its appearances as it's own state, this is recognition is called " rig pa." However, prior to this recognition or non recognition, this neutral consciousness possesses two of the three ignorances ( ma rig pa ). If this neutral consciousness does not recognize its own appearances, this non-recognition is the imputing ma rig pa, which initiates the process of development of what are called the "six intellects," grouped under the name "sems."

If CTR had said, "Before sem even begins to work, there is a chance at a first glimpse of reality, called rik pa" then I would agree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


dzogchungpa said:
I'm having a look through the third volume of CTR's "Profound Treasury" and there's actually quite a lot about rigpa in there. This passage caught my eye: Sem is generally regarded as ordinary, as samsaric. But there is an interesting term for sem, “transcendent sem,” which is said to have been coined by the great nineteenth-century Nyingma master, Mipham Rinpoche. In Tibetan, transcendent sem is called nyuk sem, or “primordial sem,” which is the same as rikpa.

Malcolm wrote:
CTR is referring to series of three polemical texts by Mipham, one of which Hopkins translated as "fundamental mind." Mipham's rendering of gnyug sems in Sanskrit is ādyacitta, which actually means "first," etc. In this text Mipham quotes from the Great Tantra Clarifying The Meaning of Freedom From Proliferation:
In the context of explaining the illustrative examples of that basis, it is said to be  empty and pervasive like space; immaculate like a crystal; unchanging like a vajra; the source of all blessings like a jewel; unimpeded illumination like the heart of the sun and so on. [7/a] It is the opposite of ignorance (avidyā) and inertness, existing as nature of a veridical consciousness, it is knowledge (vidyā). Since it is beyond cause and condition, it is self-originated. Since it does not arise adventitiously, it is the pristine consciousness that has become the nature of the vidyā that has always existed. It is the basis from which all samsara and nirvana appear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 2:06 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
michaelb said:
I fail to see how Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche's teaching would be improved by changing awareness to knowledge. Indeed, such a change may lead to further confusion. Knowledge of what, like book knownedge, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Knowledge of the essence, as in the citation.

michaelb said:
fair enough, but I feel both "knowledge" and "awareness" are broad enough words in English to take in the meaning of rigpa, and also to miss the meaning. I think even though Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche could have been more accurate, it does not mean his teaching is totally mistaken. And I would say the same is true of Harris, to a degree.

Malcolm wrote:
I never said that YMD was "totally mistaken." In Tibetan, I am quite sure his teachings are absolutely perfect.

Look, I am a translator. Being neurotic about words is my stock in trade. But if you say to me, "Tibetan teacher says X in contradistinction to what you claim," I am never going to say, "Oh gee, I guess I was wrong." I never make statements about these things without very sound research. Sometimes I do more research and change my mind, but not about this one.

For those who want to believe I am just an intellectual, this is fine by me. I could care less.

The fact is that word awareness as a translation of rig pa is plain wrong: no ifs, ands, or buts about it. People continue to use it because of Herbert Guenther's translations. But he was wrong, and that is that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:


TaTa said:
Do you think hes distintion between normal awareness, meditative awareness and pure awareness is helpfull? Or maybe someone like alan wallace with pristine awareness? Or is it the word awareness that you consider flawed too use in this context?

Malcolm wrote:
Wallace translates ye shes as "pristine awareness." This is fine, however I prefer "pristine consciousness." But there is no major difference. When awareness is used for the word " shes pa ", this ok, and it also how I use the term depending on context.

But using the term awareness for rig pa is, as you put it, too flawed and leads to great misunderstanding.

TaTa said:
Thanks dor the clarification. Its been a while since ive read alan,s stuff.

Knowledge is the word uae by chnn? Whats the difference between his use of contemplation and knowledge.

Srry for all the questions

Malcolm wrote:
Rig pa is used in two ways by CHNN: the first is "instant presence;" the second is "knowledge of one's primordial state."

Contemplation is how he translates ting ge 'dzin, samadhi.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 28th, 2017 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Sam Harris receives a (literal) pointing out instruction
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well yes, just watch his [Sam Harris] silly bullshit on Bill Maher's show.

boda said:
The challenge was to substantiate the claim that Harris is massively confused both emotionally and intellectually.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that was the challenge you put forth, I merely pointed out that I think Harris has a chauvanistic attitude towards Islam that is not grounded in any real appreciation for the subject of his bia, he says for example:
Muslims everywhere who love freedom must honestly grapple with the challenges that a politicized strand of their religion poses to free societies.
He has make many such statements, and yet nowhere does he show this danger to free societies exists. In fact, ISIS, etc, is only a danger to those societies that have been fractured and damaged as a result of US adventurism into the Middle East and Central Asia. ISIS poses no threat to" Western Civilization(tm)."

Yes, it is certainly true that two centuries of racist policies in Europe have created tension between former colonial powers and workers they imported from North Africa, Pakistan, and so on. But in reality, Europe has been dealing with terrorists of one stripe or another for decades. As far as I am concerned, the rise of neo-fascism is a much more of an existential threat than a bunch of violent sociopaths in Syria and Iraq who have proven they are so despicable the world agrees they should be utterly and completely rubbed out.


