﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 11:26 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If you say thete is no objective state of reality, you are saying that there is no reality, and that is an objective statement, since it covers everything.

gad rgyangs said:
No, I said:
not "no reality", but no "objective state of reality". of course there is reality (here we are) , but it has no description, state, or anything else that can be termed "objective" .

Malcolm wrote:
Your statement is a flat out self-contradiction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 11:18 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Your "no bank account" is every bit as much a view as any view you think you are negating. If you really had no view, you would not even have chimed in on this thread. But since you did, it shows you have a view.

gad rgyangs said:
to call Madhyamaka's deconstruction of views itself a "view" is confusing: "view" (dṛṣṭi) should be reserved for claims about the nature of reality and not deconstructions of such claims.

I "chimed in" first merely to say:
according to Madhymaka there is no objective state of reality.
to which you replied:

Malcolm wrote:
Than that is the objective stated of reality, i.e., no reality.

gad rgyangs said:
which is what I am accusing of being a view. It is not a statement about other's views of reality being inadequate or contradictory, it is itself a view, that is, a claim that there is an objective state of reality & a description of that purported objective state. I think the problematic word here is "objective" which implies a real state and not just poetic metaphors falling way short of any objectivity, said poetic metaphors including, of course, Madhyamaka, and Buddhism itself.

Malcolm wrote:
If you say thete is no objective state of reality, you are saying that there is no reality, and that is an objective statement, since it covers everything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 10:48 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
MiphamFan said:
I think your bank account analogy is confusing.

Maybe a better analogy is fiat currency, culminating in bitcoin?

It gives lie to the idea of intrinsic value -- all value is based on belief in the end, and belief is based on nothing.

Malcolm wrote:
A bank account is a wrapper, which only has value in dependence on whether we invest it with value. Reality is also such a wrapper.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 10:38 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
MMK 27.30:



this is a view:


Malcolm wrote:
Is it? If so you have to accept the consequence that you advanced it.

gad rgyangs said:
nope. this is what I said:
not "no reality", but no "objective state of reality". of course there is reality (here we are) , but it has no description, state, or anything else that can be termed "objective" .
your statement claims there is an "objective state of reality", mine denies it. Your statement is the "bank account with no bank account in it" view, and mine is "no bank account", which is the same as "no view".


Malcolm wrote:
No , I simply stated that madhyamaka concerened the inestigation into such a state. You advanced the claim there was no objective state, which I assented to.

Your "no bank account" is every bit as much a view as any view you think you are negating. If you really had no view, you would not even have chimed in on this thread. But since you did, it shows you have a view.

Btw, saying there is no money in that bank account is identical to saying thete is no essence in that phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 10:06 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
MMK 27.30:
I salute Gautama, who, based on compassion,
taught the true Dharma for the abandonment of all views.
this is a view:

Malcolm wrote:
The objective state of reality is the absence of any objective "description, state or anything else that can be termed objective."

Is it? If so you have to accept the consequence that you advanced it.

All I really said was that madhyamaka concerned the study of the objective state of reality. I did not say anything about what that state was.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 7:28 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
smcj said:
But that is vastly different than saying there is no bank account. The null set does not equal the set that contains the null set.

Malcolm wrote:
Having a bank account without money is equivalent to having no bank account.

gad rgyangs said:
not at all. a bank account with no money could have money, while no bank account cannot. reality cannot have an objective state, including that of "not having an objective state"

Malcolm wrote:
A bank account with no money is like a car wuthout wheels, it does not function. Such a bank account and such a car are just the same as non-accounts and non-cars in so far as they do not function for the purpose for which they are assigned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 6:45 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:


gad rgyangs said:
well, no. what you say contradicts itself and is tantamount to saying that everything is empty except emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no contradiction. If you have no money in the bank, there is no money in the bank, and it really does not matter how you describe that absence.

smcj said:
But that is vastly different than saying there is no bank account. The null set does not equal the set that contains the null set.

Malcolm wrote:
Having a bank account without money is equivalent to having no bank account.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 6:37 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:


gad rgyangs said:
not "no reality", but no "objective state of reality". of course there is reality (here we are) , but it has no description, state, or anything else that can be termed "objective" .

Malcolm wrote:
The objective state of reality is the absence of any objective "description, state or anything else that can be termed objective."

gad rgyangs said:
well, no. what you say contradicts itself and is tantamount to saying that everything is empty except emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no contradiction. If you have no money in the bank, there is no money in the bank, and it really does not matter how you describe that absence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 6:14 AM
Title: Re: Meet your new Chinese Overlords - From POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Saoshun said:
Saudi Arabia just joined the game blaming US WTC Attack to be conspired by them itself.

5 years? It can start this year but I will keep 5 years for sure.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
according to Madhymaka there is no objective state of reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Than that is the objective stated of reality, i.e., no reality.

gad rgyangs said:
not "no reality", but no "objective state of reality". of course there is reality (here we are) , but it has no description, state, or anything else that can be termed "objective" .

Malcolm wrote:
The objective state of reality is the absence of any objective "description, state or anything else that can be termed objective."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
heart said:
Milarepas Ngondro was building stuff for Marpa, not an accumulation of numbers.

Malcolm wrote:
And that is not even really certain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 3:37 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
according to Madhymaka there is no objective state of reality.

smcj said:
Isn't that the second extreme of non-existence?

Malcolm wrote:
No, when we say there is "no reality," it is similar to saying "My bank account is empty." When you say your bank account is empty, you are not saying that it is empty of money that was once there. You are saying there is no money to be found there when you check your balance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
according to Madhymaka there is no objective state of reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Than that is the objective stated of reality, i.e., no reality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2016 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Medicine cannabinoid extracts?
Content:
davyji said:
Is this due to illegality? And negative stigmitism? Corpocracy control?
Hemp & Marijuana grow wild throughout Himalayan regions.

dave


Malcolm wrote:
The Tibetans simply had little use for it in their pharmacopeia. Opium, the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 29th, 2016 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Quality is far more important than quantity.

Sherab Dorje said:
Where did I say that quality is not better than quantity?  I think people, in their bid to support their own agenda viz Ngondro, are being deliberately obtuse.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't have an agenda against Ngondro (i.e. the four 100,000). I have told some students they should do it, and other students it is not entirely necessary for them to to any ngondro beyond having some experience with each practice.

A student once asked my guru, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, if he should do Ngondro before Dzogchen. My teacher's reply to him was that all of his students were Dzogchen practitioners, in essence, his reply was "no." That said, my teacher's ngondro liturgies are beautiful.  I have indeed told some of my students that they should practice at least KDL"s short ngondro (without focusing too much on accumulations) because it is a fresh treasure teachings, still warm from the breath of the ḍākinīs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 29th, 2016 at 11:12 PM
Title: The real meaning of Madhyamaka and Yogacara
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka is the study of the objective state of reality.

Yogacara is the study of the subjective process of awakening.

When understood in this way, they are non-contradictory and harmonious.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 29th, 2016 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:


heart said:
I think you really have to think about how you accumulate wisdom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 29th, 2016 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I didn't say that the numbers get you to "the point".  I said that, theoretically, once you make the effort to start accumulating, within the process of accumulating those sort of numbers, chances are you will gain a result.  If you haven't gained it by 100,000 then I guess you need to look for another avenue of approach.  And don't be so sure that you did not achieve what was meant to be achieved.  It can be a really subtle change sometimes.

Malcolm wrote:
Quality is far more important than quantity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 29th, 2016 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Medicine cannabinoid extracts?
Content:
davyji said:
Are cannabinoids used in Tibetan Medicine?
As whole plant, extracts etc. ingested or topical?

dave


Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 29th, 2016 at 12:36 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
He says he has not completed a Ngondro.  That theoretically means that he has received Ngondro, started it, but did not complete it.

Malcolm wrote:
So what? Why is that important to you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 29th, 2016 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
...is it working?

Malcolm wrote:
The only question that really matters is, is it working for you? If so, then why complain, if not then there is something to complain about.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: What kind of diet do Tibetan medicine doctors recommend for someone with IBS?
Content:
Mkoll said:
I'm guessing it's based on the individual, but perhaps there are more general practices that apply to everybody with certain conditions. Or is it actually necessary to see a Tibetan medicine doctor in person and have them give even the most basic diet practices for this condition?


Malcolm wrote:
You need to see a doctor. TM is not one size fits all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Meet your new IMF/World Bank Overlords - split from troubling events
Content:
Queequeg said:
This whole Greece thing sounds familiar...

Malcolm wrote:
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I guess this brings us back around to the putative topic of this thread, "Obstacles and their elimination".


Malcolm wrote:
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Troubling developments in the South China Sea
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
hence the Troika's sheer unadulterated joy at the fact that the present austerity measures are implemented by a left-wing anti-establishment government... nothing so useful to the preservers of the status quo as forcing the anti-establishment left to betray its principles),

Iconodule said:
I haven't kept up very well with this stuff. Has there ever been a satisfying explanation for Syriza's abrupt about-face once they took power?


Malcolm wrote:
No balls.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
heh

Queequeg said:
That seriously is a good way to get yourself whacked.

Malcolm wrote:
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 2:15 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
On second thought, maybe not.

Queequeg said:
If my own thoughts annoy the crap out of me, other people's drive me to murder. But they're all my own appearances, so...

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]

Malcolm wrote:
heh


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
the path is transmitted to the student if they fail to achieve buddhahood during the empowerment

Astus said:
What sort of thing is the path to be given to another? Or, asking in another way, what is the medium between teacher and student?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Astus, why do you find a qualified Guru and find out for yourself.



Astus said:
That depends on what teachings you practice, and whether they are based on mind or pristine consciousness.
Wisdom first needs to be attained - hence the movement from ignorance to knowledge. Then, with that knowledge, that wisdom or pristine consciousness, one can progress on. That's what happens in all paths, where one goes from ordinary being to a noble one, and from noble practitioner to a non-practitioner. Unless it is the sudden enlightenment version, where with one step one goes from ordinary to buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
And then there is the third option. Pristine consciousness is innate. The stage of liberation is first. Vajrasattva lost his jewel, and needed to find it again.


Astus said:
We could say even of the 9th vehicle that it is very much loaded with theories. Does that make it then intellectual? It certainly doesn't look as simple and free from theoretical matters as Pure Land and Zen.

Malcolm wrote:
It is true that lower Atiyoga is also considered intellectual and theoretical.

Astus said:
The Vajrayāna is available to us in this epoch because it is the worst possible epoch in which liberation through Dharma is possible. Even Mahāyāna teachings are not always available. For example, Maitreya will not teach Vajrayāna.
Don't buddhas know all the teachings of all the vehicles? If they do, one can learn them just by asking for them.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

Buddhas don't proffer teachings like merchants displaying wares in the market. They teach according to circumstances. Since Sukhavati is so nice, easy and blissful, there is no reason at all to teach a swift path at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Troubling developments in the South China Sea
Content:
Queequeg said:
If you owe the bank thousands, the bank owns you. If you owe the bank trillions, you own the bank.

You Greeks might want to consider borrowing even more from the Germans.

Sherab Dorje said:
We are being forced to borrow money from everybody in order to pay back the interest on the initial loan.

The problem is that when you owe the World Bank and IMF trillions then they own you, your kids, your grandkids and a couple of generations that are as yet unborn.

So this "owe trillions..." fantasy is just wishful thinking and "head in sand" behaviour.

Malcolm wrote:
Default, dude. Declare bankruptcy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Guru yoga is a method, it is not the goal.

Sherab Dorje said:
Yes, and...?  ie How does that mean that it does not qualify as an essential teaching?

Malcolm wrote:
Guru yoga, while indispensable, is not the main point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
They have to given in person, otherwise, there is no transmission.

Astus said:
What is transmitted from teacher to disciple?

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on the teacher and the disciple. But ideally, through the dependent origination of the teacher's realization, the substances of the empowerment which are used to induce certain experiences and the confident faith of the disciple, as well as the mutual and simultaneously desire to engage in the process of transmission, the path is transmitted to the student if they fail to achieve buddhahood during the empowerment.

Astus said:
They hope there is a mother, but their desperation is driven by the fact that they are not sure. It is the same with Pure Land Buddhism. They may have convinced themselves, but in reality, they will never be sure until they find themselves in Sukhavati.
If what you mean by uncertainty is that one can never know for sure whether there is a slice of cheese left in the fridge as long as one doesn't go there and opens the door, then I think it's a level of unconfirmed hope we all have to live with every day.

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on what teachings you practice, and whether they are based on mind or pristine consciousness.

Astus said:
Direct perception is always certain. This is the difference between lower and higher vehicles in general.
How is direct perception certain? We all see that the sun goes up and down. Does the sun actually go up and down? Or do you mean that first hand experience of the validity of the teachings is better than only believing in it based on a level of theoretical confirmation? If so, then I see no difference between the vehicles, they all point to seeing the truth for oneself. At the same time, isn't it the case that in the nine vehicles scheme all that the lower vehicles assume to be direct realisations are actually false? That is, it just shows how direct perception is uncertain.

Malcolm wrote:
They all use the same rhetoric, "ehi, paśya," come and see. But in reality, the eight lower vehicles are based on intellectual theories, not pristine consciousness.


Astus said:
There is no suffering in Sukhavati, so rapid means are not needed there. It is similar with our situation, the more pain-free the eon in in which we live, the lower the teachings are available to us. Since there is no pain at all in Sukhavati, the path taught there is the longest one.
What do you base that idea on? Bodhisattvas are not in a hurry because they feel uncomfortable, but to liberate all the others.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

The Vajrayāna is available to us in this epoch because it is the worst possible epoch in which liberation through Dharma is possible. Even Mahāyāna teachings are not always available. For example, Maitreya will not teach Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In the late 50's, there was a western student of Jamyang Khyente Chokyi Lodo who was with him before he died in Sikkim. Standing on his balcony, looking over a crowd of Tibetans, he said to this fellow, "You see those Tibetans? Some of them have done ten ngondros. But they have never taken the time to seek more essential teachings. What a pity."

M

Sherab Dorje said:
More essential than Guru Yoga?

Malcolm wrote:
Guru yoga is a method, it is not the goal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
heart said:
To tell you the truth Cone I am pretty sure he would have benefited more from almost any other practice that was done for its own sake rather than for accumulate a certain number. Endless Ngondros is a very bad habit, will not help you next life either.

/magnus

conebeckham said:
I don't think ngondro, if properly approached, can ever be a "very bad habit."  Then again, I like endless ngondros.  It's unfortunate the way it's presented as a "task," or as a "prerequisite."  Truth to tell, much of this attitude is fostered by Western students, and not by the teachers themselves--at least, that's been my experience.

Malcolm wrote:
In the late 50's, there was a western student of Jamyang Khyente Chokyi Lodo who was with him before he died in Sikkim. Standing on his balcony, looking over a crowd of Tibetans, he said to this fellow, "You see those Tibetans? Some of them have done ten ngondros. But they have never taken the time to seek more essential teachings. What a pity."

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are no invisible forces at play in Vajrayāna —— if you think so, you have not understood anything.

Astus said:
That's good. Then empowerments work from a record as well as through live broadcast.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course they don't, Astus. They have to given in person, otherwise, there is no transmission.

Astus said:
Crying out to Amitabha like a lost child can hardly be described as pratyahara and Buddhānusmṛti.
A child, when crying out, knows that there is the mother who can help. Similarly, one has faith in Amitabha to come and help.

Malcolm wrote:
They hope there is a mother, but their desperation is driven by the fact that they are not sure. It is the same with Pure Land Buddhism. They may have convinced themselves, but in reality, they will never be sure until they find themselves in Sukhavati.

Astus said:
It is not really certain at all.
Then there are no certain teachings, Pure Land or not.

Malcolm wrote:
Direct perception is always certain. This is the difference between lower and higher vehicles in general.

Astus said:
These are not guarantees that these buddhas teach the short and quick path. These are listed as opportunities for gathering merit and hearing the teachings. Nothing about what teachings may be heard are mentioned.
Wouldn't a buddha teach the most beneficial and efficient method? And even if someone's karma requires the long road, that is the same situation in this life.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

There is no suffering in Sukhavati, so rapid means are not needed there. It is similar with our situation, the more pain-free the eon in in which we live, the lower the teachings are available to us. Since there is no pain at all in Sukhavati, the path taught there is the longest one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:


BuddhaFollower said:
If the tantric teaching of sleep luminosity is supposed to be much higher than śamatha, how come it doesn't result in common siddhis?

For example Hinayana practitioner Dipa Ma mastered śamatha and was witnessed to walk through walls and fly in the air.

If sleep luminosity is a higher state than the jhanas, how come it doesn't result in the same abilities?

Malcolm wrote:
If you become a buddha, will you be lacking any siddhis?

BuddhaFollower said:
Of course Buddhas have all siddhis.

But I don't see what that has to do with anything.



Malcolm wrote:
Well, siddhis are a function of mundane concentration on mantras, etc. They are not really important in the path, in and of themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then people die of fatal diseases without ever practicing much more than śamatha.

BuddhaFollower said:
If the tantric teaching of sleep luminosity is supposed to be much higher than śamatha, how come it doesn't result in common siddhis?

For example Hinayana practitioner Dipa Ma mastered śamatha and was witnessed to walk through walls and fly in the air.

If sleep luminosity is a higher state than the jhanas, how come it doesn't result in the same abilities?

Malcolm wrote:
If you become a buddha, will you be lacking any siddhis?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The difference of course is that Vajrayāna has many sure methods for attaining awakening in this life with this body.

Iconodule said:
What do you mean "sure"? Because the possibility of a dramatic fall and rebirth in hell realms due to breaking samaya seems to make the path less than sure.

Malcolm wrote:
The four defeats are irreparable. Samaya vows on the other hand are very easily repaired. In order to really break samaya, you have to turn your back on Buddhadharma completely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2016 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is not certain. Why? There are four causes required for birth in Sukhavati: the aspiration to do so, recollection of Amitabha, accumulation of virtue and dedication of merit. All four are required, as dictated by the 19th aspiration.

Astus said:
The minimal requirements are faith and vow. Beyond that everything else are commendable but not necessary. On this both the Chinese and Japanese masters agree.

Malcolm wrote:
That is nice for them.

Astus said:
All of these things depend on faith in something that may or may not happen after one dies.
Same goes for rebirth in general. Not to mention all the invisible forces at play in Vajrayana, like the whole role of a guru and empowerments.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no invisible forces at play in Vajrayāna —— if you think so, you have not understood anything.

Astus said:
Merely crying out to Amitabha like a lost child searching for its mother is not sufficient.
Mahasthamaprapta used this comparison (Surangama Sutra, tr new BTTS, p 230, 232-233):

...In order to enter samādhi, I chose no other method than to gather in the six faculties while continuously maintaining a pure mindfulness of the Buddha. This is the best method."

Malcolm wrote:
Crying out to Amitabha like a lost child can hardly be described as pratyahara and Buddhānusmṛti.


Astus said:
This is not certain.
As much as the sutras are certain, so it is this certain.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not really certain at all.

Astus said:
This is also not certain.
Why wouldn't it be? That's what the Buddha says in the sutra, it's a feature of Sukhavati. There are even vows for those (7, 9, 23).

Malcolm wrote:
These are not guarantees that these buddhas teach the short and quick path. These are listed as opportunities for gathering merit and hearing the teachings. Nothing about what teachings may be heard are mentioned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Rate of flow of time in different realms
Content:
MiphamFan said:
In Abhidharma they talk about how a thousand years for a human are one deva-day and so on.

But do they mention anything about comparing the rate of flow of time?

e.g.:
I lived as a human in 500 CE on Earth and died. I went to a hell and have to spend millions of years in hell. Is that a subjective experience of millions of years for me, the hell-being, or is it related directly to Earth human-years? Basically, is it possible for me as a human who died in 500 CE and went to a hell realm to be a human here today?


Malcolm wrote:
It is possible. Perhaps you spent a couple of minutes in hell.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: What is Sutra Mahamudra?
Content:
Kelwin said:
Would that be the Gompopa certified party-line?

Malcolm wrote:
It is stated by Kongtrul quite clearly in the Encyclopedia of knowledge, and was directly communicated to me by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso. So, I don't see how these two sources could be anymore authoritative.

conebeckham said:
Yes, this is correct. I heard exactly the same from KTG.

As I have said numerous times here and at E Sangha, I don't know of any Lama or disciple who practices only Sutra Mahamudra.  I certainly have not met anyone who claims realization due only to a "Sutra Mahamudra" path-but then, I've not met anyone who claims realization, period.  Having said that, I've known many who expressed that they had insights of various kinds due to practices taught as part of what we could call pirimarily Sutra Mahamudra.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, so I don't quite understand why this kicks up a hornet's next every time it is mentioned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Iconodule said:
Who said it was an end in itself? Malcolm introduced the dichotomy of faith and direct perception, as if faith wasn't a prerequisite in Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
When one has direct perception, one no longer needs faith.

Iconodule said:
Okay, but that's not what you said. You suggested that Pure Land requires faith whereas Vajrayana is direct perception. Clearly both paths require faith. No one said faith was an end in itself. Presumably those beings reborn in Sukhavati will experience direct perception.

Malcolm wrote:
I did not suggest that. Of course faith is necessary. But it is not sufficient.

Also Vajrayāna, in general, is a path which is based in mind and intellect, and not the direct perception of pristine consciousness.

The difference of course is that Vajrayāna has many sure methods for attaining awakening in this life with this body. The Pure Land traditions, being based in sūtra, have none of these. This is especially the case in Jodo Shinshu, where such methods are eschewed as being jiriki, self-powered.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
There are individual saṃskāra / saṅkhāra / 'du-byed and people make their "decisions" as to what is a fitting path for them, based on those.


Malcolm wrote:
Often they are told by ignorant Lamas and Dharma center denizens that they must do x before they do y. Then people die of fatal diseases without ever practicing much more than śamatha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Vasana said:
If faith leads one to uncontrived Prajna , then so be it.

If faith is seen as an end rather than a means to an end then it can only take you so far.

Iconodule said:
Who said it was an end in itself? Malcolm introduced the dichotomy of faith and direct perception, as if faith wasn't a prerequisite in Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
When one has direct perception, one no longer needs faith.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Iconodule said:
It's one thing to know that you have something learn, and another to think that this particular teacher can show it.


Malcolm wrote:
If you wish to remain in a shroud of doubt, no teacher can help, not even the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Astus said:
That is, even if one has some doubts, one can attain birth. Not to mention those who commit all sorts of evil deeds and are totally lost in delusions.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not certain. Why? There are four causes required for birth in Sukhavati: the aspiration to do so, recollection of Amitabha, accumulation of virtue and dedication of merit. All four are required, as dictated by the 19th aspiration.

All of these things depend on faith in something that may or may not happen after one dies. It is not like someone is awarded a little certificate of certainty of birth in the Sukhavati.

Merely crying out to Amitabha like a lost child searching for its mother is not sufficient.

Astus said:
Well, what about those who have committed the five actions which result in immediate rebirth in lower realms? They are excluded.
Actually, they are not. It states in the Contemplation Sutra that even those who commit the five worst actions can attain birth by remembering Amitabha. May read more on it from Shinran http://shinranworks.com/the-major-expositions/chapter-on-shinjin/.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not certain.

Astus said:
Yes, after incalculable eons, the same as any other sūtra based path.
If you think there is a shorter path, then it is available in Sukhavati, simply because all beings there are free to visit any number of buddhas, not to mention Amitabha himself, and the present bodhisattvas.

Malcolm wrote:
This is also not certain.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Iconodule said:
For the vast majority of Vajrayana practitioners, it's not like a guru comes up to you and says, "Hey, check this out" and suddenly you're enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
Direct perception =/= "enlightenment."

If you want to understand this, find a Dzogchen master.

Iconodule said:
With the assumption that he has something to show me, ie, faith.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, if you don't think there is something you can be shown, then there is no point in looking, is there?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is a difference between faith and direct perception. It is up to us to choose which path we want to follow, the former or the latter.

Iconodule said:
For the vast majority of Vajrayana practitioners, it's not like a guru comes up to you and says, "Hey, check this out" and suddenly you're enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
Direct perception =/= "enlightenment."

If you want to understand this, find a Dzogchen master.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am not proselytizing anything, I was answering questions put to me. if people want to practice Pure Land Buddhism, they should.

There is a difference between faith and direct perception. It is up to us to choose which path we want to follow, the former or the latter.

Sherab Dorje said:
Technically speaking it is not up to "us".  There is this thing called karma vipakka which has been building up through the course of countless "us" and happens to have ripened here and now.  For some it has ripened as faith and for others it has ripened in the form of direct perception.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a correct interpretation of karma vipaka. The way you present it, people have no choice in their paths. This is nonsense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And as I have repeated already, this sūtra mahāmudra was elaborated for those who did not have the capacity for Vajrayāna...

Sherab Dorje said:
And that is bad for what reason exactly?

One of my teachers is totally into the Sutra Mahamudra thing.  He teaches mainly to people that don't even want to know about empowerment.  Some received them by "mistake" but most don't give a shit about them.  So is it bad that there is a system out there that points out one's true nature to people, outside of the whole rigmarole of Vajrayana ritual?

Malcolm wrote:
No, that system is called "Prajñāpāramitā," aka, the path of common Mahāyāna. Calling Prajñāpāramitā meditation "mahāmudra" does not speed up the path. It is still a long slow path requiring three incalculable eons to complete.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Astus said:
All who have faith in Amitabha and vows to be born there, will be born there. And once in Sukhavati, no more problems, and buddhahood is guaranteed.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, after incalculable eons, the same as any other sūtra based path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 8:44 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Them's the breaks, huh?  What you want Amitabha to do?  Hand out "Get Out of Jail Free" cards?  I'm sure he would if he could.

But seriously, you know I love and respect you but this whole "Dzogchen is the best, forget about the rest..." deal is embarrassing, frankly.  I mean, I am glad that you have found a new niche for yourself, but busting everybody's chops about it ain't gonna win you any friends.  Mainly because even if you were to proselytise 'til you were blue in the face, if somebody does not have the karma for it...

So... Live and let live!  If somebody is not in the business of accruing negative outcomes, then just let them do their thing.

It's not like Pure Landers are sacrificing vestal virgins or something, that's more like something we Vajrayanis would be into.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not proselytizing anything, I was answering questions put to me. if people want to practice Pure Land Buddhism, they should.

There is a difference between faith and direct perception. It is up to us to choose which path we want to follow, the former or the latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:


dzoki said:
No it does not show that it is an independent tradition, but it shows that it is and was a practice system that can be applied independent of two stages.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't think these texts show this.

dzoki said:
Also I forgot to mention the mahamudra instruction lineage of Vajrapani and Asukha. Marpa Lotsawa received some teachings on mahamudra from Maitripa, but by far not all, Maitripa passed his instructions onto his student Vajrapani, who gave them to Asukha, Asukha came to Tibet and taught them to various disciples including Rechungpa, this tradition is known as lower or eastern mahamudra and the teaching was called (according to Rechungpa´s biography White, red and black mahamudra).
Vajrapani himself towards the end of his life went to Tsang in Tibet together with his disciple Dharmashri and taught mahamudra to several Tibetan disciples, this lineage was known as upper or western mahamudra.

There is also lineage of nepalese guru Nirupa a student of another disciple of Maitripa, Karopa.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but this does not indicate that these upadeshas were transmitted to people who lacked necessary empowerments and so forth.

You will recall, the dividing line between Sūtra and Secret Mantra is empowerment. You will also recall that the mahāmudra we are discussing does not even belong to lower tantra (Mahāmudra in lower tantra refers to the commitment to mediate one's body as the body of the deity).

And as I have repeated already, this sūtra mahāmudra was elaborated for those who did not have the capacity for Vajrayāna, as can be easily verified  by reading Kongtrul's description of sūtra mahāmudra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 8:25 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Astus said:
Good point. That is another reason for recommending the Pure Land path over the path of sages (i.e. aryas). All who have faith in Amitabha and vows to be born there, will be born there. And once in Sukhavati, no more problems, and buddhahood is guaranteed.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there are problems in the pure land, such as being born inside a lotus and stuck there for 18,000,000 human years.

Sherab Dorje said:
That is hardly a problem if you compare it to cycling through samsara for 18 million human years continuing to engage in even more negative karma the outcomes of which will be another 18 trillion human years of being reborn in the three lower realms.  It is actually a pretty decent offer.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, what about those who have committed the five actions which result in immediate rebirth in lower realms? They are excluded.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 8:00 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
maybay said:
Yes I do. Not as a requirement for attainment though, but as a criteria for engagement. If you fail in your practice of Dzogchen, nothing is lost. If you fail as a renunciate, you will either die or end up living a truly wretched existence. Bravery is a question of what risks you are willing to take.

Astus said:
Good point. That is another reason for recommending the Pure Land path over the path of sages (i.e. aryas). All who have faith in Amitabha and vows to be born there, will be born there. And once in Sukhavati, no more problems, and buddhahood is guaranteed.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there are problems in the pure land, such as being born inside a lotus and stuck there for 18,000,000 human years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 7:55 PM
Title: Re: What is Sutra Mahamudra?
Content:
Kelwin said:
Cone, anyone, do we know of any lamas, Rinpoches, lineage holders, or realised yogis, who attribute their realisation to Sutra Mahamudra?


Malcolm wrote:
Probably not , since Karma Kagyu holds that sutra mahamudra is for people of lower capacity.

Kelwin said:
Would that be the Gompopa certified party-line?

Malcolm wrote:
It is stated by Kongtrul quite clearly in the Encyclopedia of knowledge, and was directly communicated to me by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso. So, I don't see how these two sources could be anymore authoritative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 7:53 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Norwegian said:
Are there biographies / books on Milarepa prior to Tsangnyon, translated to English, and if so which is recommended?

Also, which of the Tsangnyon authored books on Milarepa in English are the recommended translations?

Thanks.


Malcolm wrote:
Peter Alan Robert's book on Rechungpa is indirectly a book on how much spin there was on Mila's bio.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 7:17 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
dzoki said:
The story with naked buttocks in the earlier (prior to Tsangnyon Heruka) sources happens between Milarepa and Rechungpa. Also there was no sun and moon disciple prior to Tsangnyon. Whatever his reason might have been Tsangnyon Heruka clearly altered the whole Milarepa - Rechungpa and Milarepa - Gampopa story. Older materials also mention that Milarepa had several human consorts. Again this was played down by monastic Kagyu traditions, so much so that some Kagyu lamas even claimed that Milarepa was celibate.

If we accept "12 nails" and "Clarification of Primordial wisdom" as Milarepa´s texts, these are texts on mahamudra. 12 nails is a short text that specifically deals with view, practice, conduct and fruit of mahamudra. Also there are texts on mahamudra by Rechungpa for example his famous cycle on six-fold equal taste. I agree that Gampopa greatly expanded on mahamudra teachings, but based on the existence of these texts predating or independent of Gampopa´s work I doubt that mahamudra practice system was his own invention. Sutra mahamudra was, but the essence mahamudra was not. Of course the attribute of the "essence" is also of Gampopa´s making, but what I mean here is was not the title, but the practice system as such.

Malcolm wrote:
So therefore any text on mahamudra that does not mention the two stages proves mahamudra is an independent tradition from vajryana in general? I dont think this good reasoning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: What is Sutra Mahamudra?
Content:
Kelwin said:
Cone, anyone, do we know of any lamas, Rinpoches, lineage holders, or realised yogis, who attribute their realisation to Sutra Mahamudra?


Malcolm wrote:
Probably not , since Karma Kagyu holds that sutra mahamudra is for people of lower capacity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 8:16 AM
Title: Re: Meet your new Chinese Overlords - From POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
DGA said:
The political and economic structure of the PRC is rotten to the core and not sustainable.  Corruption, inequality, grievous pollution, political repression suitable to a paranoid and insecure regime... the CPC has made a real mess of the place, knows it, and is constantly looking over its own shoulder to ensure that no one learns the details.

History has a way of coming back around on itself.  The Tibetan genocide has not been accounted for, nor is the current repression of Tibetans in China.  No institution can attack Dharma and Dharma practitioners in a systematic way and expect good results.  Who knows what the karmic consequences of supporting the "Shugden" scene may be.

The triumphalism over a rising China should be checked with a healthy skepticism.  Yes, China is rising, but on what foundation and in what direction and to what end?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 8:14 AM
Title: Re: What is Sutra Mahamudra?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is true that people make such claims, but since the term never occurs in sutra, how can they be taken seriously?

smcj said:
I remember Brunnhölzl making the point that Gompopa's Mahamudra was based on the Uttaratantra, and therefore Buddha Nature. I don't remember if it was specific to sutra, essence, tantric, or all three.

tomamundsen said:
Lama Jampa Thaye mentioned that recently:

Lama Jampa Thaye said:
Gampopa was very learned in the Uttara–Tantra Shastra, the teaching by Maitreya to Asanga; it is a teaching in 5 texts, but the fifth and most important of them is called the Supreme Continuity, or Uttara-Tantra Shastra. It is a text dealing with Buddha-nature. Having contemplated this teaching also, Gampopa again came to the conclusion that what was taught about in the Uttara-Tantra -as the Buddha-nature, the actual fundamental nature of our mind- and what is taught about in the Mahamudra is, in essence, one point. As he said to his disciple Pagmodrupa: “Our Mahamudra is as the Mahamudra expressed in Maitreya’s Uttara-Tantra.”
This is a very, very extraordinary understanding reached by Gampopa through his meditation on both the Sutra and the Tantra teachings. You see, his point was this: in the Mahamudra we can distinguish view, meditation and action –that is how it is taught in the Indian songs, in the Indian Mahamudra dohas. The view -as that which is to be realized as the nature of reality- is expressed in this way: all appearances are actually none other than mind itself, but if we look into the mind, we see that the mind’s nature is just like space. It has no beginning, no end, no center, no periphery. If we look into the nature of space, we see it is none other than emptiness. In this way, appearances are mind, mind is space, and space does not go beyond emptiness. This is, for instance, how Tilopa teaches in his song about Mahamudra given at the Ganges. But Gampopa said it is exactly the same teaching that is found in the Perfection of the Wisdom Sutras [editor’s note: Prajnaparamita Sutras] -particularly in the Samadhiraja Sutra- and that is found in the Uttara-Tantra. Therefore, there exists in this way a Sutra transmission of Mahamudra, known as a Mahamudra that is not just derived from the Tantras but is being presented in the Sutra tradition.

tomamundsen said:
http://www.kibi-edu.org/teachers/jampa-thaye/lama-jampa-thaye-an-introduction-to-mahamudra/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: What is Sutra Mahamudra?
Content:
conebeckham said:
For Sutra Mahamudra, the object, and method, is the mind of luminosity free from conceptual elaboration, which is the result of conjoined Samatha/Vipassana and profound pith instructions.

Malcolm wrote:
Which of course is no different that prajñāpāramitā.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Tenso said:
18th vow guarantees birth in Sukhavati. Once born in Sukhavati what else do you do besides practice the Dharma under the guidance of Amitabha and gain Buddhahood?

Malcolm wrote:
You ought to read the rest of the vows. Just cause you are born there does not mean you stay there.

Iconodule said:
Right, you can choose to leave to rescue beings in other places. But the road to Buddhahood is irreversible.

Malcolm wrote:
The road to Buddhahood is irreversible in any case from the very first moment one conceives bodhicitta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Tenso said:
The main thing is that Buddhahood is certain and there's no more going back.

Malcolm wrote:
This is stated nowhere in the 48 vows.

Tenso said:
18th vow guarantees birth in Sukhavati. Once born in Sukhavati what else do you do besides practice the Dharma under the guidance of Amitabha and gain Buddhahood?

Malcolm wrote:
You ought to read the rest of the vows. Just cause you are born there does not mean you stay there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Iconodule said:
Is there something particularly awful about being born in a closed lotus? Is it horribly boring or something?


Malcolm wrote:
You can neither hear nor see Amitabha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is not a promise of liberation in the next life. This is simply a promise that if you have sincere faith in Amitabha and recite his name a minimum of ten times you can be born in Sukhavati in the future.

But on the other hand, other sūtras of the Sukhavati tradition indicate that you might be born in a closed lotus where you will have to remain for 500 years. But these 500 years are not an ordinary 500 human years. They are deva years. So for example, some devas live one day for every one hundred years of human life. Put in those terms, five hundred years will be 18,250,000 years.

Tenso said:
The main thing is that Buddhahood is certain and there's no more going back.

Malcolm wrote:
This is stated nowhere in the 48 vows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 2:26 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Tenso said:
Reciting nembutsu is said to guarantee liberation in the next lifetime. No need for elaborate practices, rituals, a guru or anything of that sort. What can possibly be more quicker and efficient than that?

Malcolm wrote:
In what teaching of the Buddha is this definitively stated?

Tenso said:
48 vows of Amitabha specifically the 18th primal vow in the Infinite life sutra.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a promise of liberation in the next life. This is simply a promise that if you have sincere faith in Amitabha and recite his name a minimum of ten times you can be born in Sukhavati in the future.

But on the other hand, other sūtras of the Sukhavati tradition indicate that you might be born in a closed lotus where you will have to remain for 500 years. But these 500 years are not an ordinary 500 human years. They are deva years. So for example, some devas live one day for every one hundred years of human life. Put in those terms, five hundred years will be 18,250,000 years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Tenso said:
Reciting nembutsu is said to guarantee liberation in the next lifetime. No need for elaborate practices, rituals, a guru or anything of that sort. What can possibly be more quicker and efficient than that?

Malcolm wrote:
In what teaching of the Buddha is this definitively stated?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Milarepa's accounts refer to certain Non-Human consorts.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you can ask his consort. She uses this lady to speak through these days:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
conebeckham said:
But I take some issue with the statement "No precedent in the Indian Tradition" and I think it's a bit more nuanced than that.

Malcolm wrote:
You would have to show that there was a non-Vajrayāna tradition of Mahāmudra in India, and frankly, such a tradition never existed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
So to actually accomplish the Two Stages of HYT one has to rely on a consort?

Malcolm wrote:
In general, it is held that one does.

RikudouSennin said:
Milarepa relied on consorts, yes or no?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

RikudouSennin said:
So why did Mila Good News not just rely on upadesha?

Malcolm wrote:
Because Marpa himself was an adept at the two stages, and passed those teachings on to Milarepa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
...not all of us are fit vessels.

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone who is interested is a fit vessel.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 1:49 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Iconodule said:
I'm not sure how the Vajrayana, with its intensive, lengthy, elaborate practices, rigorous asceticism, requirement of esoteric initiations and close guidance, etc. would be easier for most people than regular Mahayana.


Johnny Dangerous said:
I think part of the reason is that  a sense of aesthetic  or spiritual austerity (which some other teachings really rely on) is actually very difficult in this day and age for people to profit from spiritually. On the flipside, people today are already immersed in their senses whether they want to be or not, in that sense Vajrayanas' skillful use of these things fits very well with how people already (have to) live.

Also not all Vajrayana involves elaborate ritual, though that seems to be a big component in lower tantra stuff.

Iconodule said:
I understand that the hypersensual aspect of it can be very appropriate for someone in the modern world, but to actually engage in the practices in depth requires maintaining a relationship with a teacher and a high level of commitment, both of time and effort. And I recognize that some popular practices, like chanting "om mani peme hung", are accessible to anyone and are regarded as highly meritorious, but the same can be said of many sutra Mahayana practices.

Malcolm wrote:
It all depends on how quickly you wish to achieve buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2016 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In other words, an ineffective path is one that is long, slow, narrow and runs through treacherous countryside. An effective path is short, quick, wide and runs through easy country.

Iconodule said:
I'm not sure how the Vajrayana, with its intensive, lengthy, elaborate practices, rigorous asceticism, requirement of esoteric initiations and close guidance, etc. would be easier for most people than regular Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is easier to practice an hour of sadhana a day then it is to take rebirth after rebirth for eons and eons. It is even easier to practice sadhana 16 hours a day than it is to take rebirth after rebirth for eons and eons to gather the requisite accumulations needed for full buddhahood.

It is easier to have the nature of reality pointed it out by a master than it is to try and discover it on one's own. After all, look how successful we have been without a master since beginningless time in samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
maybay said:
Think of it this way. In common English is it fair to say a path is effective?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, it is more effective to take the Merit Parkway to Manhattan than it is to go Rt. 95.

maybay said:
You could not say that taking the second path that takes you to Manhattan is ineffective, which is what we are debating.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, you can. For example, if you drive west on rt. 90, intending to get to Manhattan, you will never arrive there, but will arrive, eventually, in Seattle. This is like the difference between Buddhist and non-Buddhist paths.

Or it is like Rt. 95 being closed. If you try to get to Manhattan on that day, you will not arrive.

In other words, an ineffective path is one that is long, slow, narrow and runs through treacherous countryside. An effective path is short, quick, wide and runs through easy country.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
maybay said:
I don't think this is fair, and u don't see this reflected in higher teachings, which always refer to lower teachings and often suggest that they are accomplished simultaneously.

Malcolm wrote:
Higher paths accomplish results either not accomplished by lower paths — for example, the difference between arhatship and buddhahood, or the difference between common Mahāyāna buddhahood and Vajrayāna buddhahood — or accomplish a result more rapidly — for example, the difference between common Mahāyāna and uncommon Mahāyāna Secret Mantra, or the difference  between outer tantras and inner tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
smcj said:
Please keep in mind that termas change dharma all the time.

Malcolm wrote:
They really don't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
maybay said:
Think of it this way. In common English is it fair to say a path is effective?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, it is more effective to take the Merit Parkway to Manhattan than it is to go Rt. 95.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Astus said:
[Perhaps it is not that big a surprise to say that the only people who agree with what Vajrayana presents as valid are the Vajrayana followers themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 5:15 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Mahamudra did not originally just mean Buddhahood in the HYT system.  If you want to be "academic" or historical, you should check out the yoga tantras, etc.

BuddhaFollower said:
And when I say originally, I mean before Gampopa.  Mahamudra may have had even earlier meanings.

Losal Samten said:
The term Mahamudra is found in the Lankavatara and reflects the highest form of practice according to that sutra. See van Schaik, Tibetan Zen.


Malcolm wrote:
No, the term does not occur in the Lanka or any other sutra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: Understanding the Basis
Content:
Queequeg said:
Thank you.

Can you offer some color on what is meant by wisdom, youthful vase body, and compassion in this context? I'm trying to understand through conventional meanings of those words, but youthful vase body I certainly have no idea about.

Malcolm wrote:
Pristine consciousness (wisdom) refers to one mind free from contrivances.

Youthful vase body refers to the basis before it is rent open, it also refers to the essence.

Compassion is the nirmanakāya aspect of the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
Iconodule said:
I read somewhere that some referred to the sutra Mahamudra derisively as "Chinese Dzogchen," basically saying it was imitation Chan. Is there any grounds to that?

conebeckham said:
This is probably referring to a comment made, I think, by Sakya Pandita, to the effect that Kagyu Sutra Mahamudra appeared to be similar to, or identical to, or at least influenced by, So-called "Hashang Mahayana."


Malcolm wrote:
He was more referring to Lama Shang's Karpo Chigthub.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Iconodule said:
This discussion has me wondering how common Mahayanists have regarded the particular claims of the Vajrayana.?


Malcolm wrote:
They reject them. What else can they do? If they accept them, they have to sign on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In this epoch, paths of renunciation are no longer effective. But this is a standard trope in Vajrayāna, which comes from Indian Buddhism.

maybay said:
The standard trope is that renunciation doesnt lead to full enlightenment, and that Mahayana and Vajrayana are faster. How does one gauge effectiveness anyway. And even then people live in different worlds, effectively different epochs.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the standard trope is that paths of renunciation, including common Mahāyāna, are not effective in this epoch.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: healing crystals in buddhism??
Content:


kdolma said:
Also, is it better to purchase raw crystals that have not been polished, tumbled, and dyed?

Malcolm wrote:
Gems can be cut, but as I mentioned, they should be large. For example, a diamond should be 2 karats minimum.

M

Karma Dorje said:
In a medical context do the same strictures apply as for jyotish such as no pressure or heat treatment, no eye visible flaws?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: Understanding the Basis
Content:
Queequeg said:
Working my way through The Practice of Dzogchen, and came to this passage:

"In Rangshar it is said: "The primordial purity, the basis, is present [in the mode of] essence [entity], nature [character], and compassion [power]." The essence is the ceaselessness of the changeless intrinsic wisdom, and it is called the nature of "the youthful vase body". The nature is the ceaseless appearances of the five lights. The appearance of compassion are [pervasive] like the cloudless sky. These are called the nature of primordial purity as they do not fall into any extremes of dimensions or partialities."

Trying to understand these three modes of the basis.

What is the wisdom?
...the youthful vase body?
...compassion?

If I'm understanding, ignorant compassion is what sets the 12 linked chain in motion. If that's right, that strikes me as a wonderful way to cast the arising of delusion.

Malcolm wrote:
These three modes are merely three ways of talking about one thing, pristine consciousness, or as translated here, wisdom.

What happen is that at the time of the so called basis, apparent aspect of the basis, compassion, is reified as subject and object, than at that point the 12 links kick in because the knower in the basis, which is treated as separate from the basis, does not recognize its own appearances as its own state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Electronics etc. and Lung/Prana
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
bump

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, electronics are the main cause of the epidemic of wind illnesses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by habits?

zengen said:
The tendency to think certain way, act certain way etc. As if automatic, without deliberation.

Malcolm wrote:
These are called vasana, traces, which are a result of accumulating actions of this or that kind. For example, if you are practitioner, you accumulate traces connected to practice. These traces color how you think. For example, if you are a serious Mahāyāna practitioner and you see a yearling steer, your "habit" will be to automatically want to free that animal. But if you are a butcher, you will think about how to slaughter it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:


conebeckham said:
But a nuanced reading of the dohas of Saraha, Maitripa, and others like Shavaripa, etc.  indicates that there are various ways of "weighing" various types of practice, and that arguments can be made that Gampopa's innovations were not entirely without precedent.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this does not really hold water. For example, no one would argue that Virupa did not practice the two stages, and no one would argue that he taught a path devoid of them; but in his Dohakosha, you can find critiques of them.

One can also argue that Maitripa's texts were an attempt to normalize Vajrayāna in the context of sūtra, where most Indians were not practitioners of Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:
zengen said:
What about habits? Do habits fall under the formation aggregate?

Malcolm wrote:
What do you mean by habits?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 12:36 AM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
I don't think so personally, which is why I'm interested in the Dharmic distinction between thought and emotion, if one exists in any presentation.

Malcolm wrote:
Emotions are how we interpret sensations.


Johnny Dangerous said:
You mean "anger" for instance is an interpretation of a more "pure" sensory experience or something else?

Malcolm wrote:
Anger is the result, generally, of how we interpret unpleasant sensations.

We have mind, mental factors, and matter. Two of the skandhas, sensation and perception, are actually mental factors. But they are treated as separate aggregates from the formation aggregate because of their dominant role in keeping us in samsara.

So emotions are the judgments, the color deriving from the attachments and aversions we have towards what it is we are sensing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Illusion
Content:
pothigai said:
A 'real table' is different from an 'illusory table' in that one does not interact with the illusory table in the same way one does with the real table; one can tap on the real table or stub one's toe on it, but one cannot do this with an illusory one. One could perhaps say 'don't worry about tripping over that table, because it's an illusion,' but saying that 'all phenomena are illusions' doesn't seem to provide one with similar practical information about whether or not one could trip over said phenomena. Thus the statement that 'all phenomena are illusions' does not seem to utilise the same sense of the word 'illusion' as the table example does; In saying this one does not seem to be comparing 'all phenomena' with any real phenomenon as one does in the table example.

If all phenomena are illusions, then what would real phenomena be?

If one cannot give a meaningful description of what real phenomena would be, what are we to take a statement such as 'all phenomena are illusions' to mean?


Malcolm wrote:
One day Candrakirti was reading a book in the halls of Nalanda and absent-mindedly bumped his head against a pillar. One of his students, seeing this, remarked, "So much for all phenomena being empty."

Candra responded by passing his hand through the same pillar.

So yes, everything is absolutely equivalent to an illusion.

A geshe challenged Milarepa to a debate. He said to Milarepa, "You are a great meditator. Tell us, is space conditioned or unconditioned?"

Milarepa replied, "Why, space is conditioned of course."

The Geshe really thought he had caught Milarepa in a gross error, and replied, "How is space conditioned like this rock? The rock offers impediment, space offers no impediment."

In reply, Milarepa picked up a stick and began to beat on space, producing the sound of a drum.

So yes, everything is absolutely equivalent to an illusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2016 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
conebeckham said:
To say that Gampopa was the first to teach ""Mahamudra" without reliance on prior practice of the two stages is pure surmise.


Malcolm wrote:
Nah, it is just a fact.

conebeckham said:
You're sure Maitripa and Saraha did not teach anyone a path separate from the two stages?   Any proof?

Malcolm wrote:
Illustrious Kagyus such as Gyalwa Yanggongpa are extremely clear that Gampopa's mahāmudra arose from his own experience and has no precedent in the Indian tradition. It is a certainty for example that Milarepa did not pass on a lineage of Mahāmudra to Gampopa scrubbed of the two stages.

Other illustrious Kagyus like Kongtrul are equally clear that sūtra mahāmudra for example is a "mahāmudra" for those who lack the capacity to practice Vajrayāna.

The best you are going to get is that there was a group of Indian masters such as Shri Simha (the Dzogchen master) who taught that the creation stage was not important. One can make an argument perhaps that Maitripa was such a later exponent, but not for Saraha, who was the master who introduced to the Cakrasamvara Tantra to the world. But this does not mean for example that they discarded the importance of empowerments, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 11:51 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:


Fortyeightvows said:
Why?

Karma Dorje said:
Gestation period of nine months added to the time spent in the bardo.

The Cicada said:
I don't know if most Buddhists accept this. I don't, but there's no point in arguing with those who do. Patton is as Patton does.

Malcolm wrote:
Any educated Buddhist holds this understanding. There is zero chance that Trump is the reincarnation of Patton, whatever else he may be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
conebeckham said:
To say that Gampopa was the first to teach ""Mahamudra" without reliance on prior practice of the two stages is pure surmise.


Malcolm wrote:
Nah, it is just a fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
This brings me to an interesting question, how are thoughts like this differentiated from actual negative volitional impulses? I know they are quite different experientially, and are easy to tell apart, but how are these things explained traditionally? Is it just clinging that makes the difference?

zengen said:
Can it be that the negative automatic thoughts spring from negative volitional impulses? It just happens in the mind so quickly we tend to think they're the same?


Johnny Dangerous said:
I don't think so personally, which is why I'm interested in the Dharmic distinction between thought and emotion, if one exists in any presentation.

Malcolm wrote:
Emotions are how we interpret sensations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
smcj said:
And you know, teachers are not good by virtue of being "Tibetan." In my experience, Tibetans don't generally get Americans at all.
...which is exactly why, if this is the problem, they are not equipped to address it. It up to us to see that it is a problem. Otherwise we are like a fly buzzing against a pane of glass and not able to understand the nature of the obstruction.

Malcolm wrote:
You might have that problem, but don't assume everyone does.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Mipham's Shower of Blessings
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no guru yoga in lower tantra.

dzoki said:
Well, nobody was arguing about that. Though I think this is rather formalist view, as it stands now Tibetans have mixed guruyoga even into stura practices such as lojong. So who cares?

Malcolm wrote:
Lojong used to be very secret, and it is an error to consider it merely "sūtra."

dzoki said:
Of course one needs an empowerment in order to practice Vajrayana in general, even Kriya tantra practice, but since the core element of guruyoga is faith I believe this practice can be done by anyone, who is interested as long as they have intention to receive the actual empowerment later on and have already received lung and instructions.

Malcolm wrote:
Remember, there is no one in Tibet who has not received some kind of empowerment.

My observation derives from looking at the practice in the text itself. It begins with A, and ends with two A's.

dzoki said:
Also if one has sufficient faith, they can receive the actual empowerment directly from Guru Padmasambhava while doing the practice (though that is probably pretty rare I guess).

Malcolm wrote:
My point really is that if you carefully examine the text, it is the opposite of what most people imagine it to be. Most people imagine it to be some kind of outer Guru Padmasambhava practice that does not require an empowerment. I think it's real import is that it is a guru yoga practice for practicing Atiyoga: after all, the feast portion is in fact a separate text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
smcj said:
Personally I see more people evolve spiritually through 12 step programs than I do Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a tendency for people holding hammers to see everything as a nail.

smcj said:
One big difference in their approach is the willingness to accept the idea that they won't find the answer to their problem using their own emotional/intellectual resources and willpower. In other words, a willingness to take direction from an external source and not rely on self-will. My Tibetan teachers seem to have a similar approach, and Westerners all seem to agree that's not necessary. We want to do it on my terms, on my preconditions, without giving up any of my ego territory, etc.

I submit the hypothesis that this is possibly problematic.

Just sayin'...

Malcolm wrote:
It is not problematical at all. Buddhas teach according to people's inclinations. That means that people are taught according to their proclivities.

And you know, teachers are not good by virtue of being "Tibetan." In my experience, Tibetans don't generally get Americans at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: healing crystals in buddhism??
Content:


kdolma said:
Which Tibetan Medical texts?? Thanks for replying back
Is there a certain amount/size of gem that can be worn to be considered powerful enough to have some effect? Do they have to be worn close to the heart?
Also, is it better to purchase raw crystals that have not been polished, tumbled, and dyed?

Malcolm wrote:
Gems can be cut, but as I mentioned, they should be large. For example, a diamond should be 2 karats minimum.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
smcj said:
Personally I see more people evolve spiritually through 12 step programs than I do Vajrayana.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a tendency for people holding hammers to see everything as a nail.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Mipham's Shower of Blessings
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
There is no self-visualization as a deity in kriya tantra, and yet, you still need an empowerment.

As I said, Shower of Blessings is an Ati level practice, which is indicated by the mode of creation, and the completion stage of the practice. It is a guru yoga practice in which on receives the four empowerments. This indicates that it is a highest yoga tantra level practice, at minimum.

Tongnyid Dorje said:
yes, i see... my previous post was an answer from my lama, who gave me lung and instruction for this practice.


dzoki said:
I received this practice 3 times from different lamas and they all agreed that there is no need for the empowerment in order to do this practice, also my friend received it recently and his lama also told him same thing.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, if you really examine what this practice is, it is an Ati level guru yoga practice.

There is no formal empowerment for the text. But many of these kinds of guru yoga practice do not need a specific empowerment. Just a lung. Guru yoga itself exists only in HYT, etc. There is no guru yoga in lower tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Queequeg said:
I disagree that these discussions are without merit. I don't recall anywhere in this thread that an exclusive claim was made with the exception of Malcolm who wrote that only Vajrayana is effective.

Malcolm wrote:
In this epoch, paths of renunciation are no longer effective. But this is a standard trope in Vajrayāna, which comes from Indian Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 8:44 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Queequeg said:
There might be variations on what people mean by "provisional" leading to the confusion.

Malcolm wrote:
Provisional means valid under this circumstance, invalid under another.

Definitive means always valid in all circumstances, whether understood or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 3:52 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All the following says is that the Buddha is reminding Śariputra of his bodhisattva vows and giving him a prediction for full buddhahood.
Śrāvakayāna is a long route to Buddhahood, very long., etc. All these paths eventually lead to Buddhahood, they are all Buddhayānas. Why? Because they all lead to awakening. Awakening and buddhahood are to different things. The former is necessary for the latter, but paths which produce the former do not necessarily directly produce the former. But they do indirectly, since once one becomes an Arya and is free from birth in samsara, buddhahood is inevitable at some point. So from the point of view of the Indo-Tibetan Mahāyāna tradition, the ultimate goal of all paths is the same — buddhahood, hence, Ekayāna. To quote the Saddharma Pundarika directly:
Due to the skillful means of the Tathāgata, Arhat, Samyak Sambuddha, the single vehicle of buddhahood was taught as three vehicles.
This passage argues that there really aren't three vehicles at all, just one. This is consistent with the Lankāvatara Sutra which asserts that śrāvaka arhats, etc., are roused from the equipoise of cessation and placed on the bodhisattva path to attain buddhahood.

Queequeg said:
It goes further than that, explaining that the Sravakayana was more or less a delusion, and that the Sravkas have always been bodhisattvas...
I declare to thee, Sâriputra, I announce to thee, in presence of this world including the gods, Mâras, and Brahmas, in presence of this people, including ascetics and Brahmans, that thou, Sâriputra, hast been by me made ripe for supreme, perfect enlightenment, in presence of twenty hundred thousand myriads of kotis of Buddhas, and that thou, Sâriputra, hast for a long time followed my commandments. Thou, Sâriputra, art, by the counsel of the Bodhisattva, by the decree of the Bodhisattva, reborn here under my rule. Owing to the mighty will of the Bodhisattva thou, Sâriputra, hast no recollection of thy former vow to observe the (religious) course; of the counsel of the Bodhisattva, the decree of the Bodhisattva. Thou thinkest that thou hast reached final rest. I, wishing to revive and renew in thee the knowledge of thy former vow to observe the (religious) course, will reveal to the disciples the Dharmaparyaya called 'the Lotus of the True Law,' this Sûrânta, &c.

Again, Sâriputra, at a future period, after innumerable, inconceivable, immeasurable Æons, when thou shalt have learnt the true law of hundred thousand myriads of kotis of Tathâgatas, showed devotion in various ways, and achieved the present Bodhisattva-course, thou shalt become in the world a Tathâgata, &c., named Padmaprabha, endowed with science and conduct, a Sugata, a knower of the world, an unsurpassed tamer of men, a master of gods and men, a Lord Buddha...
Saying the Sravakayana leads to Buddhahood is not telling the whole story. Its when the full scope of the matter is revealed that we see the context of the three vehicles.

We're not saying much different. I think you're being a little more polite to those on the Sravakayana than the Buddha is in the Lotus. Later, the Sravakayana is compared to a phantom city conjured by the Buddha for weary travelers. Its awakening is not what its purported to be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Ekayāna is saying no more and no less than that all Dharma paths have one goal, Buddhahood. It does not however comment on which of those paths is long delayed, indirect, direct, or immediate.

Queequeg said:
I think it does say a little more than that, at least in the Lotus Sutra, and how its interpreted in East Asia. Sravakayana, in itself, does not lead to Buddhahood. Neither does Pratyekabuddhayana. Even Bodhisattvayana of the Six Paramitas does not actually lead to Buddhahood... Only the Buddhayana (the actual Ekayana) leads to Buddhahood. The Ekayana, at least in the Lotus tradition, is the Direct and Sudden path.

Malcolm wrote:
Śrāvakayāna is a long route to Buddhahood, very long., etc. All these paths eventually lead to Buddhahood, they are all Buddhayānas. Why? Because they all lead to awakening. Awakening and buddhahood are to different things. The former is necessary for the latter, but paths which produce the former do not necessarily directly produce the former. But they do indirectly, since once one becomes an Arya and is free from birth in samsara, buddhahood is inevitable at some point. So from the point of view of the Indo-Tibetan Mahāyāna tradition, the ultimate goal of all paths is the same — buddhahood, hence, Ekayāna. To quote the Saddharma Pundarika directly:
Due to the skillful means of the Tathāgata, Arhat, Samyak Sambuddha, the single vehicle of buddhahood was taught as three vehicles.
This passage argues that there really aren't three vehicles at all, just one. This is consistent with the Lankāvatara Sutra which asserts that śrāvaka arhats, etc., are roused from the equipoise of cessation and placed on the bodhisattva path to attain buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are people who believe that if you recite this prayer you take rebirth in this pureland, or that prayer you will take rebirth in that pureland. In reality, there are no purelands outside of your body and no buddha that can be found outside of your mind.

M

Tenso said:
This would be considered blasphemy in some PL circles.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there are people who have very external view of liberation, thinking liberation comes from somewhere outside themselves. This is an extremely provisional view. When you are a natural buddha already, one does not need to depend on some other buddha's vow to manifest that realization. You just need to seek out a guru who can introduce you to that buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]
Content:
weenid said:
To answer the question whether there's scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body, a good counter question that Khenpo Sodargye might pose is (in the first place) whether or not Buddhism needs validation from science since it is a science in its own right.

Malcolm wrote:
If by science you simply means an area of knowledge, then I can agree.

But if by science you mean it can stand along with physics, and so on, I have to disagree.

Why? Science in the latter sense depends upon empirical validation of the perceptions of many ordinary people over time under controlled experimental conditions, slowly piecing together this and that kind of knowledge. Buddhadharma on the other hand is entirely revelatory, and is based on faith in the perception of extraordinary people whose perceptions cannot be validated by ordinary people. The validation of those perceptions necessitates that one has oneself transformed into an extraordinary person whose knowledge does not depend on the empirical validation of the perceptions of many ordinary people over time under controlled experimental conditions.

First and foremost, rainbow body is the result of what happens when you eradicate for yourself the fundamental delusion that sustains samsaric appearances. Since the outer and inner five elements are already the five lights of pristine consciousness misperceived, when that misperception is utterly removed, where one once perceived the five elements in all their diversity, one now perceives nothing but a field of light.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Iconodule said:
Right, but it's not something an uneducated or very busy person can just pick up and practice, especially if no qualified teacher is present.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. But all the buddhas of the three times relied on a guru. Gurus really are not optional in buddhadharma.

Iconodule said:
I thought the idea was that Amitabha would be the guru once one reached the Pure Land.

Malcolm wrote:
There are people who believe that if you recite this prayer you take rebirth in this pureland, or that prayer you will take rebirth in that pureland. In reality, there are no purelands outside of your body and no buddha that can be found outside of your mind.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Mipham's Shower of Blessings
Content:
Tongnyid Dorje said:
Not really... there is no self visualisation as a deity, so you dont need any empowerment.... but its good to have some Guru Rinpoche empowerment as a blessing for this practice...

Karma_Yeshe said:
It depends on how you define "empowerment", but since SoB is based on the view of Ati, some kind of transmission of the knowledge of Ati is indispensable.

KY


Malcolm wrote:
Correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Mipham's Shower of Blessings
Content:
Tongnyid Dorje said:
Not really... there is no self visualisation as a deity, so you dont need any empowerment.... but its good to have some Guru Rinpoche empowerment as a blessing for this practice...

Malcolm wrote:
There is no self-visualization as a deity in kriya tantra, and yet, you still need an empowerment.

As I said, Shower of Blessings is an Ati level practice, which is indicated by the mode of creation, and the completion stage of the practice. It is a guru yoga practice in which on receives the four empowerments. This indicates that it is a highest yoga tantra level practice, at minimum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2016 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Iconodule said:
Yeah, but you need someone trained and empowered in the practice to pull it off, right?

Malcolm wrote:
One can train oneself, or otherwise, rely on a yogi who has trained.

Iconodule said:
Right, but it's not something an uneducated or very busy person can just pick up and practice, especially if no qualified teacher is present.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. But all the buddhas of the three times relied on a guru. Gurus really are not optional in buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Iconodule said:
And this sentiment is quite readily observable in Christianity and other religions.

tiagolps said:
The difference being that in other religions they don't believe their religion will vanish.

Iconodule said:
Some extreme protestants do seem to think the religion vanished for 1500+ years.

There's also the case of the Old Believers in Russia who have no priesthood and no sacraments, believing these things have vanished from earth due to the bishops' apostasy.

Malcolm wrote:
The Dharma will not disappear until the universe is destroyed. The idea that it will vanish after some predetermined time is a provisional teaching, like the Buddha's parinirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Iconodule said:
Or nembutsu... or Nichiren's odaimoku... or...

Tenso said:
Just so you know the most popular form of practice in Vajrayana is phowa. The result of it is the same as nembutsu.

Iconodule said:
Yeah, but you need someone trained and empowered in the practice to pull it off, right?

Malcolm wrote:
One can train oneself, or otherwise, rely on a yogi who has trained.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:
smcj said:
You guys do realize that "automatic thoughts" are more accurately called kleshas, right? And thus this question/problem is the most basic to all Dharma. Everything else comes later.

zengen said:
But don't we produce negative thoughts because of the kleshas?

smcj said:
Negative thoughts/feelings are kleshas.

From Wiki: Kleshas (Sanskrit: kleśa; Pali: kilesa; Standard Tibetan: nyon mongs,) in Buddhism, are mental states that cloud the mind and manifest in unwholesome actions. Kleshas include states of mind such as anxiety, fear, anger, jealousy, desire, depression, etc. Contemporary translators use a variety of English words to translate the term kleshas, such as: afflictions, defilements, destructive emotions, disturbing emotions, negative emotions, mind poisons, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
No, in point of fact kleshas are mental factors, not minds. There are 26 altogether:

Six root unwholesome factors[edit]
The six root unwholesome factors (mūlakleśa) are:

Raga - attachment
Pratigha - anger
Avidya - ignorance
Māna - pride, conceit
Vicikitsa - doubt
Dṛiṣṭi - wrong view
Twenty secondary unwholesome factors[edit]
The twenty secondary unwholesome factors (upakleśa) are:

Krodha - rage, fury
Upanāha - resentment
Mrakśa - concealment, slyness-concealment
Pradāśa - spitefulness
Irshya - envy, jealousy
Mātsarya - stinginess, avarice, miserliness
Māyā - pretense, deceit
Śāṭhya - hypocrisy, dishonesty
Mada - self-infatuation, mental inflation, self-satisfaction
Vihiṃsā - malice, hostility, cruelty, intention to harm
Āhrīkya - lack of shame, lack of conscience, shamelessness
Anapatrāpya - lack of propriety, disregard, shamelessness
Styāna - lethargy, gloominess
Auddhatya - excitement, ebullience
Āśraddhya - lack of faith, lack of trust
Kausīdya - laziness, slothfulness
Pramāda - heedlessness, carelessness, unconcern
Muṣitasmṛtitā - forgetfulness
Asaṃprajanya - non-alertness, inattentiveness
Vikṣepa - distraction, desultoriness

These are things which color the mind, they are not themselves "thoughts."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:


Queequeg said:
Lol. Yeah. Sometimes we need to be tricked out of the problems we thought up in the first place. From the view of Ekayana, the former, middle and latter ages depend on causes and conditions. Ekayana, on the other hand is expressed through, but not limited to certain limited particulars. I think this is a view you find in higher teachings across traditions.

Malcolm wrote:
In order to attain liberation in the degenerate age, an ordinary person needs a practice which is based on the direct perception of dharmatā, rather than intellectual analysis, mind, faith, championing one sūtra or tantra over another, renunciation and so on. I know of no other tradition that offers this kind of approach outside of Vajrayāna, and specifically, Atiyoga.

Ekayāna is saying no more and no less than that all Dharma paths have one goal, Buddhahood. It does not however comment on which of those paths is long delayed, indirect, direct, or immediate.

But if you study the nine yānas presentation one can easily ascertain which paths fall where.

Of course people have their karmic dispositions for this and that path, which is why there are so many paths. But when it comes to liberation, one needs a path based on jñāna, not citta.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 6:13 AM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:
smcj said:
You guys do realize that "automatic thoughts" are more accurately called kleshas, right? And thus this question/problem is the most basic to all Dharma. Everything else comes later.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are not. Most "thoughts" are neutral and are not necessarily thoughts of desire, hatred or ignorance. At least mine aren't. Your milage may vary.

smcj said:
Sorry. I meant "automatic thoughts" as defined in the original post, which were specifically negative. My bad.
zengen said:
How do you deal with negative thoughts that just arise spontaneously without your control?


Malcolm wrote:
It does not matter, such thoughts are like white and dark clouds in the sky. They come and they go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.

Nicholas Weeks said:
In other words return to a more conservative approach; but this is why 'there is no practical way'.  Do you think the teachers' unions in major cities and their local politicians will turn away from 'Progress' made or admit errors?  No way.


Johnny Dangerous said:
Are )986ing kidding me? The list above is exactly the sort of thing that most teachers want, how/why you think teachers unions have some big effect on that is beyond me. Most teachers want those kinds of things and end up (partially because of people like you, who devalue the huge contribution they make to society) jaded and disgusted. Teacher's unions aren't perfect, but laying the lack of those things at the feet of unions is straight up ridiculous, bordering on nonsensical.

Malcolm wrote:
And dont get me started about Charter Schools...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:
smcj said:
You guys do realize that "automatic thoughts" are more accurately called kleshas, right? And thus this question/problem is the most basic to all Dharma. Everything else comes later.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are not. Most "thoughts" are neutral and are not necessarily thoughts of desire, hatred or ignorance. At least mine aren't. Your milage may vary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
Not so much, it is the lack of voters educated in basic civics or even well informed ones.  Suppose there is no practical way to fix that...


Malcolm wrote:
There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.

Nicholas Weeks said:
In other words return to a more conservative approach; but this is why 'there is no practical way'.  Do you think the teachers' unions in major cities and their local politicians will turn away from 'Progress' made or admit errors?  No way.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm....look at the first item on the list...."start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary."

If you pay them more, their unions will be have less influence, and pose less problems, etc. But the Republicans insist on cutting funding for all social programs, especially education, arts, and so on.

The fact that our kids are as poorly educated as they are these days is a fault I lay at the doorstep first of lazy parents, but also at the feet of the Republican efforts to slash all public funding.

I guess the basic difference between us is that I strongly believe in public funding of humanities and arts and I think it is a loss that we have decided as a society that humanities and arts have no intrinsic worth. Just look at the all the Buddhist studies programs around the world that are being cut. Denmark, Australia, whose next?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:


Queequeg said:
I take it you oppose Common Core... another cause in common with conservatives...

Malcolm wrote:
I don't know anything about it.

What I do know is that kids these days are leaving high school less educated than I did, with more deficits in reading skills, and so on.

We have slipped from being the best, to being something 29th in the world. The Italians have a better educational system than we do. The top five are all Asian countries, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. Finland is #6.

Children are simply not being well educated in our country, over all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 4:39 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Queequeg said:
The idea that there will be an age of degeneration when the True Dharma will flow is actually in the Lotus and is/was a central theme in Tiantai/Tendai thought at least through Saicho who actually celebrated the coming Degenerate Age.

zengen said:
Why did Saicho celebrate the Degenerate Age?

Queequeg said:
Because the Saddharma exclusively would spread.

So did Zhiyi and Zhanran.

If I have time I will try to gather some quotes.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course you understand that in this degenerate age, only Vajrayāna is effective....just saying....


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Malcolm: I basically think the primary problem with American gvt. is that not enough people participate in the system even minimally.
Not so much, it is the lack of voters educated in basic civics or even well informed ones.  Suppose there is no practical way to fix that...


Malcolm wrote:
There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Different schools of 'mind-only'
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Around page 307 of Ven. Yin Shun's Way to Buddhahood you will find many pages on "The False Imagination Mere Consciousness System" of Arya Asanga and offshoots thereof.

Iconodule said:
As I recall, Ven Yin-Shun's position is that yogacara and tathagatagharba philosophies are just skillful means for sugarcoating the bitter but superior pill of Madhyamaka.

Malcolm wrote:
From a sūtra perspective this may be so, but from a Vajrayāna perspective, tathāgatagarbha sūtras are definitive, the rest are provisional.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The two party system is not inherent, but it has become defacto.

Sherab Dorje said:
It was here too, with the (Stalinist) Communist Party of Greece as a third (and ineffective party) holding a steady 8-10%.  And then one day...

Malcolm wrote:
There are really four parties in American politics, tracking right to left:

Social Conservatives, Fiscal Conservatives, Social Liberals, and Fiscal Liberals.

America is basically a rightwing country. This is why it has been hard to launch a Green Movement here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 24th, 2016 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I basically think the primary problem with American gvt. is that not enough people participate in the system even minimally. Voter turnouts so far as abysmal, only 18 % of the electorate. This is why we get abominations like the Clintons and Trump.

Sherab Dorje said:
In Greece a government cannot be be considered constitutional if at least 50% of registered voters have turned up to vote.  Of course they fudge the figures, but they are never that low.

One cannot strictly say that the voter turn out is what causes the Clinton-Trump phenomenon, seems to me that it is more of a vicious circle than a linear relationship.

Maybe one day you guys will grow up politically and ditch the two party (with one agenda) approach to politics.  Of course that will mean that you will get both far-right and far-left political parties in parliament, but it does break the stranglehold of entrenched political elites.  Which, as far as I am concerned, is a positive development.

Malcolm wrote:
The two party system is not inherent, but it has become defacto.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 11:31 PM
Title: Re: ANU cuts Tibetan & Buddhist Studies
Content:
Indrajala said:
There are various underlying reasons for dismantling the humanities. I tend to think it is mostly a result of ongoing long-term economic problems in much of the West...

Malcolm wrote:
It isn't about money. It's about priorities.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
Good!  I often thought you were too much into 'view' or ideology, whether social, religious or political.  Glad to be wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
I basically think the primary problem with American gvt. is that not enough people participate in the system even minimally. Voter turnouts so far as abysmal, only 18 % of the electorate. This is why we get abominations like the Clintons and Trump.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Malcolm embracing 80% of conservative Kirk's outline means Malcolm sees much of value in Kirk's conservatism.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I read both right wing and left wing authors.

Many people here may not have read Hayek or Nozick. I have, and I respect their point of view. Nozick's libertarianism extended to animals, for example, thus he was a vegetarian. He did not feel we had the right to eat or exploit animals. I've read Spengler, Gentile, Evola, Pound, Celine, etc., many so called "fellow travelers on the right."

I have also read Marx, Engles, etc., and I respect their efforts to free working class people from the boot of 19th century industrial exploitation. I used to have a copy of Rubin's Steal this Book, and when I was ten, I was reading Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, Weather Underground's Prairie Fire, as well as Be Here Now, first edition (where I first discovered Padmasambhava).

As a pre-teen I also read the Don Juan, Electric Koolaid Acid Test, etc.

My influences and interests are all over the map.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Different schools of 'mind-only'
Content:


Losal Samten said:
Both are eternalistic due to use of the three natures theory and its brand of emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Better to say that all versions of yogacara are realist, rather than eternalist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
fckw said:
I find this quote quite fascinating. We all understand that he was released from evil. But what does being released from good actually mean? I assume it implies much more than simply "not having to be nice".

Malcolm wrote:
Means he has no reason to accumulate merit.

fckw said:
And this means again?

Malcolm wrote:
he was a buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Dems, who love State power over individuals.

Malcolm wrote:
This is far from the truth. The reality of it is that the there is an underlying ideology that has spread into both parties, the neo-liberalism of the Chicago School of Economics, and the neo-conservatism the 1990's. Clinton, proud of her conservative history, subscribes to both.

The Democratic Party of LBJ was killed by the Clintons.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: on the essay 'clarifying the true meaning'
Content:
HandsomeMonkeyking said:
Because of the above comments it does not appear clear to me in any way.

heart said:
I understand that it isn't clear for you, I am sorry I can't resolve your doubts. I am just suggesting that maybe this topic will not become clear to you using ordinary logic, Perhaps there is something else needed to understand that book?

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Recitation of the seven line prayer.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Being mostly self-educated I find myself of a conservative temperament mainly.  But this thinker, Russell Kirk, sounds like the non-doctinaire sort of conservative I admire (based just on a few snips from his writings).  The only wrinkle is 'God' being the source of moral guidance, while true for many, Buddha's teachings are superior.

http://www.kirkcenter.org/index.php/detail/essence-1957/

Malcolm wrote:
If you really believe those things, I have no idea why you are Republican.

Nicholas Weeks said:
A reminder - none of us ARE Dem or Rep or Irish or any aspect of our personality.

With that aside, as a Progressive of some sort, do those principles as Kirk gives them seem likely to embraced by you or any living Democrat?


Malcolm wrote:
(2) Variety and diversity are the characteristics of a high civilization.
(3) Justice means that every man and every woman have the right to what is their own—to the things best suited to their own nature, to the rewards of their ability and integrity, to their property and their personality.
(4) Property and freedom are inseparably connected; economic leveling is not economic progress.
(5) Power is full of danger; therefore the good state is one in which power is checked and balanced, restricted by sound constitutions and customs.
(6) The past is a great storehouse of wisdom
(7) Modern society urgently needs true community: and true community is a world away from collectivism.
(9) Men and women are not perfectible, conservatives know; and neither are political institutions.

I don't agree with American Exceptionalism, so I left out item 8, and while I certainly think there is a wisdom beyond that of ordinary mortals, I would not characterize it as "Divine."

Given that Republicans generally like enforcing conformity, pass policies that rob people of their properties and interests, try as hard as they can to undermine checks and balances in government, grossly distort the past, encourage corporate collectivism, and insist their political vision is perfect, I have no idea why a conservative would want to be a Republican.

I think you are closer to libertarian anarchism than you realize.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I am under the impression that the short mantra does not need transmission (ie it originates from Sutra).


Malcolm wrote:
Whoever told you this? It certainly is not from sūtra.

Sherab Dorje said:
Vajrasekhara Sutra?

Malcolm wrote:
This is a tantra, yoga tantra class.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
I am under the impression that the short mantra does not need transmission (ie it originates from Sutra).


Malcolm wrote:
Whoever told you this? It certainly is not from sūtra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Essence of Conservatism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Being mostly self-educated I find myself of a conservative temperament mainly.  But this thinker, Russell Kirk, sounds like the non-doctinaire sort of conservative I admire (based just on a few snips from his writings).  The only wrinkle is 'God' being the source of moral guidance, while true for many, Buddha's teachings are superior.

http://www.kirkcenter.org/index.php/detail/essence-1957/

Malcolm wrote:
If you really believe those things, I have no idea why you are Republican.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
dreambow said:
"Now released from both good and evil, I have destroyed the root of karmic action and shall have no reason for action in the future. To say anymore than this would only cause weeping and laughter. What good would it do to tell you? I am an old man, leave me in peace."

fckw said:
I find this quote quite fascinating. We all understand that he was released from evil. But what does being released from good actually mean? I assume it implies much more than simply "not having to be nice".

Malcolm wrote:
Means he has no reason to accumulate merit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 23rd, 2016 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body[?]
Content:
weenid said:
The premise behind this thread of "scientifically satisfactory evidence for the rainbow body" needs to be questioned.

If metaphysical phenomena like rainbow bodies need science to validate it, it is just mere scientific materialism. That will mean we have already first assumed the primacy of science over metaphysical phenomenon, that everything should and can be examined by peer reviewed data and repeatable trials, if not they cannot be real or true.

Khenpo Sodargye explained abou the defects of science and he briefly touched on the rainbow body here :
http://www.khenposodargye.org/2016/02/chapter-four-defects-and-drawbacks-in-science/


Malcolm wrote:
This factoid is easily addressed:
For instance, on May 19, 1980, in New England, USA, the sky suddenly became noticeably darker around 10 a.m. and these shrouded skies lasted the entire day.

He's confused it with Dark Day, which happened in 1780.

http://www.history.com/news/remembering-new-englands-dark-day

Salient facts:
It would take several decades—and several more smoke-induced “dark days”—before the forest fire theory won wide acceptance. It was finally confirmed in 2007, after researchers from the University of Missouri discovered signs of a massive, centuries-old wildfire in the Algonquin Highlands of southern Ontario. “Fire scars” in the rings of the affected trees allowed the team to date the blaze to the spring of 1780. After studying weather reports from the period, they concluded that low barometric pressure and heavy winds had most likely carried smoke into the upper atmosphere and over the Northeast, blotting out the sun. Evidence shows that a similar phenomenon also occurred in 1881, when the haze from fires in Ontario and Michigan reduced sunlight in New England by as much as 90 percent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2016 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: How did Milarepa do it?
Content:
RikudouSennin said:
I haven't read his biography, but just ordered it. As of now I read just a few articles and some of his poems. I was reading a poem today and I was curious.

What was Milarepas main practice?

Malcolm wrote:
Creation stage and completion stage.

RikudouSennin said:
I assume he practiced the two stages, what was his main deity?

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayoginī

RikudouSennin said:
Did he practice Ati Yoga?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2016 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: Mipham's Shower of Blessings
Content:
yenima said:
Does one have to have an empowerment in order to practice Mipham's Shower of Blessings?  I remember, in our temple, we frequently performed the SoB Tsok, and participation was open to everyone.  Are there parts of the sadhana (e.g. the daily non-Tsok practice) that can only be practiced by those who have the appropriate wangkur?

heart said:
Seems to me there is an empowerment necessary for that practice, but I never managed to find out what empowerment.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
It is actually a practice based on the view of Dzogchen, so properly speaking it would need direct introduction and a lung, and that is about all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2016 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Herbie said:
Some insist to argue with ignorance against insight. That's called "the world" which is based on ignorance.

Sherab Dorje said:
There is nothing insightful about your circular relativism.  Boring, predictable and stupid would be more valid descriptors.

Herbie said:
Insight is not transmissible.

Malcolm wrote:
Your statement supposes you have insight.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2016 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: Fear or apparitions?
Content:
Monlam Tharchin said:
Is there a way to distinguish between an experience of fear and an actual suffering apparition (e.g. hungry ghost) that may benefit from the Dharma?
I ask because without fail when I get up in the middle of the night, I experience one or more "beings" in a specific room of my house as I pass the doorway.
My response thus far has been to turn my attention to a mantra (Amitabha) instead of my aversion and fear.
But if this experience is more in line with an opportunity to bring some benefit to hungry ghosts, I'd very much like to know what I could do.
It seems the mantra either cancels out my fear or drives the beings away.

I hope this doesn't sound completely loony

Malcolm wrote:
You can use the Jvalamukha practice, it is a kind of water offering for pretas. You do it in the morning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 22nd, 2016 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Automatic thoughts
Content:
zengen said:
Where do these thoughts come from?

Malcolm wrote:
You should investigate that and find out. It is better than getting an answer from someone here. Also, you should find out where they stay and then where they go.

Having investigated this for a while, you should go to a qualified teacher in person and share your experience with them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: blessing chords
Content:
Tigersnest said:
What was the reason for Chod practitioners ?

Malcolm wrote:
If you are a chod practitioner, you are practicing giving your body to all nonhumans, wearing protection cords, amulets, etc., is against this idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 8:43 PM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:


Iconodule said:
But that would mean the mind-stream can be identified as a self which would undermine the basic Buddhist critique of self.

Malcolm wrote:
A mind stream is perpetuated in grasping an I. This does not mean that I exist as more than a nominal convention for an erroneous perceptual self-organizing habit.

Iconodule said:
The critique of grasping an I is that anything that might be conceived as a self is subject to flux and dissolution, and therefore cannot be considered an abiding self. But now we're told that we each have this unique, individual mindstream which has maintained its individuality from beginningless time and which can neither break apart nor merge with another. Can you see why someone might find this confusing?

Malcolm wrote:
The "I" is the habit of grasping to the idea of self. It can take the form of grasping to something as a self, or, as it really is, merely a mental habit of thinking "I am."

That habit is not a self, does not belong to a self, and has no self, but it continually carries on imputing a self.

This habit maintains its "individuality" because its causes and conditions are unique to it, just as the causes and conditions that lead from seed to sprout are unique to that series.

This nonexistent I can be an agent of karma and a recipient of ripening of karma, even though it does not exist as such.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Anders said:
How is are emanations not a splitting of consciousness?

Also, how can a partless dharma be dependedly arisen?

Malcolm wrote:
These so called emanations are manomāyakāyas, mentally emanated bodies.

The only phenomena that have parts are material phenomena. Mental phenomena are partless in this sense because they are nonphysical.

Now, a given mind, taken as a collection of consciousness and attending mental factors has parts, but when we discuss any of these in isolation, these mental factors and so on are all partless in the sense that they are simple.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Iconodule said:
I've read and heard a fair amount of Buddhist teaching, but one question I don't recall hearing an answer to is this: Between rebirths there is a single stream of consciousness, so one death leads to one rebirth in one of the six realms depending on the karmic orientation. Why does this mindstream not split up and constitute in several different births? What keeps it from merging with other mindstreams?

Astus said:
The mind stream is an attempt to explain rebirth without self. However, rebirth and karma applies only to those who are attached to the concept of self. Since a self is always unitary, there is no splitting into two selves.

Iconodule said:
But that would mean the mind-stream can be identified as a self which would undermine the basic Buddhist critique of self.

Malcolm wrote:
A mind stream is perpetuated in grasping an I. This does not mean that I exist as more than a nominal convention for an erroneous perceptual self-organizing habit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 4:46 AM
Title: Re: blessing chords
Content:


cyril said:
Does anybody know how this story actually emerged?
Physically, it was clearly not possible since JT was long dead before DK was born.
Some latter attempt to deride the Gelugpas, perhaps?

Malcolm wrote:
They are just legends, they cannot be taken literally.

cyril said:
Yes, I understand that. And that's the reason I was wandering why they particularly chose Je Tsongkhapa for a protagonist in this story.

Malcolm wrote:
They also picked Sapan. He makes fun of Pema Lingpa too, whom he actually studied with...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: blessing chords
Content:
cyril said:
Drukpa Kunley apparently tied one that was given to him by Je Tsongkhapa , on his knob
Does anybody know how this story actually emerged?
Physically, it was clearly not possible since JT was long dead before DK was born.
Some latter attempt to deride the Gelugpas, perhaps?

Malcolm wrote:
They are just legends, they cannot be taken literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: blessing chords
Content:
Tigersnest said:
has anyone used a blessing chord on the ankles? would that help for energy disturbance? Or is it disrespectful to have it closer to the ground?


Malcolm wrote:
If you are a practitioner you do not need to wear one at all.

conebeckham said:
In fact, if one is engaged in certain practices, wearing one's mala is seen as better, and it's recommended NOT to wear cords, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, if you are a chod practitioner or receiving a healing chod, you should not wear protection cords.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: blessing chords
Content:
Tigersnest said:
has anyone used a blessing chord on the ankles? would that help for energy disturbance? Or is it disrespectful to have it closer to the ground?


Malcolm wrote:
If you are a practitioner you do not need to wear one at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Do you believe all those people are emanations of Khyentse Wangpo? I don't.

Sherab Dorje said:
Well they certainly seem to believe they are, and they seem to know their shit.  But what we believe is not really the point here.  How the specific phenomenon can be explained (or not) is the point here.

Malcolm wrote:
I offer them the same challenge I offered Gesar Mukpo. If they cannot clearly remember their past lives, then what kind of "nirmanakāyas" are they? Khyentse Wangpo was supposed to be a 13th stage Vajradhara.

If people wish to believe that all these incarnations are really the incarnation of JKW, ok, that is fine with me. I am not particularly convinced of this, as I am not especially convinced the tulku system is a reliable means of selecting emanations or reincarnations, etc.

A buddha's mind has no limitations, a buddha also cannot accumulate karma, suffer in samsara, etc. However, in reality, from a Dzogchen point of view, nirmanakāyas are a result of the delusions of sentient being, as Manjuśrimitra says:
Because the awakening of the sugata does not exist, his magical apparitions appear to the deluded, similar to an illusion.
Therefore, an argument can be made that all these emanations just correspond to our own delusion, nothing more, nothing less.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 2:01 AM
Title: Re: Meditation in Nature
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dude, you have clearly never been to India...

And the Himalayas??? Come on.

Queequeg said:
I've been to India. Spent six months blowing with the wind. Admittedly did not seem that much, given its size. What did I remark about the Himalayas? I've sometimes wondered if the relative lack of emphasis on the environment is that India, aside from the Himalayas, is devoid of natural wonders and dramatic landscapes.


Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you have read much then. Writing about nature is integral part of Indian literary culture.

India has oceans, plains, deserts, several mountain ranges, thousands of rivers...

If you did not travel in the south, then you would not have seen much. Central India is pretty flat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point is that in the end, the Buddha said that we are owners and heirs of our own karma.

dzogchungpa said:
IMO, the point is: What do you mean 'we', Buddha man?

Malcolm wrote:
We as individuals.
"Student, beings are owners of kammas, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Is there ultimately any unity or multiplicity in the first place? I understood these to be relative.

Malcolm wrote:
The question raised here was in reference to karma, the six realms, and bifurcated consciousnesses. This is all relative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Iconodule said:
I'm not sure if I'm just not following the arguments being made here, or if my question is not really being addressed. In any case I don't feel it has. That may just be my problem. In any case, it's strange to me that a system which teaches impermanence, non-self, dependent origination, emptiness, the unreality of subject-object distinctions, etc. can still maintain that individual streams of consciousness are permanently independent, being capable of neither splitting nor merging.

gad rgyangs said:
dont confuse dogmatist fundamentalists with questions arising from critical thinking. it will only make them angry.

Malcolm wrote:
There is critical thinking and fruitless intellectual proliferation. Sometimes it is hard to discern one from the other.

In this case, I suspect our friends question, reasonable though it is, arises from a lack of familiarity with the basic assumption of Buddhadharma. Karma is personal and only can worked out and experienced personally. The reason this happens is because mind streams are intrinsically separate and unique and have no ultimate origin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Even low level first stage bodhisattva can have 100 emanations, or so it is said.

But an emanation is not a "split" consciousness, the subject of discussion here.

Sherab Dorje said:
Okay, I can understand that emanations of Bodhisattvas may be like puppets of the original consciousness, but what about the tulku issue I raised?  Here we quite clearly have an example of a single consciousness manifesting as several samsaric form and mind combinations.

Malcolm wrote:
Do you believe all those people are emanations of Khyentse Wangpo? I don't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Iconodule said:
I'm not sure if I'm just not following the arguments being made here, or if my question is not really being addressed. In any case I don't feel it has. That may just be my problem. In any case, it's strange to me that a system which teaches impermanence, non-self, dependent origination, emptiness, the unreality of subject-object distinctions, etc. can still maintain that individual streams of consciousness are permanently independent, being capable of neither splitting nor merging.

Malcolm wrote:
An effect is supported on its causes and conditions. In order for a mind stream to "split" it would have to, in effect, calve itself, produce two instances of itself simultaneously.

Likewise, for merging, one consciousness would have to give up it own causes and conditions, and adopt those of another.

The point is that in the end, the Buddha said that we are owners and heirs of our own karma. If a mind stream split, then this would not be the case, the second person of the split mind stream would be an heir of karma they never produced themselves, etc.

Also, if you theorize a split in a mindstream, you are proposing a beginning to a sentient being, something which is impossible given dependent origination and its consequences.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
But high level Bodhisattvas can manifest as more than one seemingly independent being/phenomenon at any point in time while maintaining their own (original) independent existence.

Malcolm wrote:
Even low level first stage bodhisattva can have 100 emanations, or so it is said.

But an emanation is not a "split" consciousness, the subject of discussion here. Iconnodule was specifically talking about being splitting into different forms for the six lokas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Meditation in Nature
Content:


Queequeg said:
I've sometimes wondered if the relative lack of emphasis on the environment is that India, aside from the Himalayas, is devoid of natural wonders and dramatic landscapes. A lot of the year, its just HOT. The land is relatively flat and arable - good for farming, very practical, conducive to easy living and leisure (to think up some far out stuff). In contrast, China boasts some truly dramatic landscapes and awe inspiring natural phenomena. The Japanese landscape is likewise inspiring and beautiful.


Malcolm wrote:
Dude, you have clearly never been to India.





And the Himalayas??? Come on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I am not citing her as an authority, I am just pointing it out to Iconodule since he brought it up and I thought he would be interested to know that.


Malcolm wrote:
Vasubandhu shows that mind streams are independent

Iconodule said:
What's his reasoning?

Malcolm wrote:
You can follow up by looking at any discussions of his twenty verses.

In order for a consciousness to split in the manner you suggest, from a Buddhist perspective this is impossible, since it leaves the undesirable consequence that one would then have to explain how karmavipaka (result of karma) from one karma would ripen on two distinct and separate conscious entities and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Transgenderism
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Oodles of news now, regarding this aspect of samsaric delusion. This blog is from folks who know or have dealt with trans people.  Also stories about gender confusion and how it is handled.

https://4thwavenow.com A community of parents & friends skeptical of the "transgender child/teen" trend

Sherab Dorje said:
Just wondering:  Are you transgender?  Is that why it is an issue for you?

Malcolm wrote:
He is a conservative, that is why it is an issue for him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Apparently Jiyu-Kennett  did in fact teach that something like the splitting you describe was possible. Anyway, I have never seen an explanation of this issue that made any sense to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Many people teach strange things not in keeping with Buddhadharma, so what?

dzogchungpa said:
I am not citing her as an authority, I am just pointing it out to Iconodule since he brought it up and I thought he would be interested to know that.


Malcolm wrote:
Vasubandhu shows that mind streams are independent — that is a more reliable thing to mention. You will doubtless be invoking Jax next.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Apparently Jiyu-Kennett  did in fact teach that something like the splitting you describe was possible. Anyway, I have never seen an explanation of this issue that made any sense to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Many people teach strange things not in keeping with Buddhadharma, so what?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 21st, 2016 at 12:00 AM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:


Iconodule said:
Why not?

Malcolm wrote:
A moment of consciousness is not made of parts, as I said before. In order for a moment of consciousness to be split, it would have to be something composed of parts, as I said before.

Iconodule said:
Maybe it's my Platonist hangups, but when you say "a moment of consciousness is not made of parts," I have to ask then how it can dissipate or change into something else. If the moment can't be divided, then the stream can't really be divided into moments, in which case we have the simplicity typically reserved for eternal souls, God, and other things that aren't supposed exist in Buddhism.


Malcolm wrote:
"Consciousness" does not change into "something" else. This moment of consciousness is the cause for the next moment, and so on. These moments are not the same and they are not different. They are not the same, since a present cause cannot give rise to a present effect; they are not different because a past cause cannot give rise to a present effect.

As I said, it is described as a rosary of moments from sentient beinghood to buddhahood.



Iconodule said:
The problem with this analogy is, as you pointed out, that seeds and sprouts can in fact be divided into parts. So why is consciousness so special?

Malcolm wrote:
Conventionally, seeds only produce a single sprout. That is the point of the analogy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Iconodule said:
Can you elaborate on what "production from other" is?

Losal Samten said:
http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/mipham/four-great-logical-arguments
What I am thinking of is not a new series being produced but the same series dividing.
Same thing, each series would operate independently. The 'water stream' analogy is a logical impossibility, leading to the problem of being "both the same and different".

Iconodule said:
Since rivers in the observable world do in fact split, single embryos split into twins, etc. one could hardly call it a logical impossibility. The text you linked to seems to have more to do with how these phenomena are interpreted.

Malcolm wrote:
Rivers are made of parts, so are embryos. A moment of consciousness is not made of parts, therefore, it cannot be split.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no way for a stream of consciousness to "split."

Iconodule said:
Why not?

Malcolm wrote:
A moment of consciousness is not made of parts, as I said before. In order for a moment of consciousness to be split, it would have to be something composed of parts, as I said before.

For example, a single seed will produce only a single sprout, irrespective of the other causes and conditions that support that sprout, so it is with the next moment of your consciousness. This moment will produce only a single subsequent moment of consciousness.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Iconodule said:
I've read and heard a fair amount of Buddhist teaching, but one question I don't recall hearing an answer to is this: Between rebirths there is a single stream of consciousness, so one death leads to one rebirth in one of the six realms depending on the karmic orientation. Why does this mindstream not split up and constitute in several different births? What keeps it from merging with other mindstreams?

Malcolm wrote:
How can a single instant of consciousness split? It is not made of parts.

Iconodule said:
I'm not talking about an instant but the mindstream that passes from death to rebirth and which, in some Buddhist traditions, undergoes a lengthy intermediate state.

If that were not made of parts, that would imply it cannot dissolve, in which case, wouldn't it have to be considered an abiding self?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a rosary of serial moments, each moment neither the same as nor different from the preceding or the next. There is no way for a stream of consciousness to "split."

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Single Stream of Consciousness and Rebirth
Content:
Iconodule said:
I've read and heard a fair amount of Buddhist teaching, but one question I don't recall hearing an answer to is this: Between rebirths there is a single stream of consciousness, so one death leads to one rebirth in one of the six realms depending on the karmic orientation. Why does this mindstream not split up and constitute in several different births? What keeps it from merging with other mindstreams?

Malcolm wrote:
How can a single instant of consciousness split? It is not made of parts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Meet your new Chinese Overlords - From POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Saoshun said:
One reason is democracy, allowing women to vote (and destroy civilizations) etc. [do not even comment on that, those are historical facts just do research and do not try to change this topic why women destroy civilizations - if you want argue about it create new topic]

see you in next 5-6 years I bet some of users here will be raping and killing each other in the front of war. No my wish but this is the results if you go against the nature, facts which you can not change (no free will so democracy is not possible, women destroying civilization, feminism, socialism etc)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 9:39 AM
Title: Re: Meaning of rangjung (rang byung)?
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
So essentially Nagarjuna's explanation of sunyata does not pertain to jnana -- whose emptiness is different, or rather differently approached, than the emptiness of all phenomena at the Sutrayana level, right?

Both stories aim at and succeed in revealing emptiness, but they do it differently, Nagarjuna's context being dependent origination and two truths, Vajrayana/Dzogchen focusing on what is transmitted during empowerment/direct introduction. Am I getting anywhere near?
Malcolm, would you be so kind as to correct what I wrote above, please?

Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka is a chronic disease...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
I agree, but part of that is that simply raising/regulating people's serotonin doesn't fix much of anything, a lot of the studies out there on psilocybin are just looking at it like a biological therapy, similar to SSRIs.

Malcolm wrote:
They are completely different animals. One gets you high and is enjoyable; the other makes you fat, turns you into an emotional zombie, and has no buzz.


Johnny Dangerous said:
Maybe, but the point is most of these studies are treating the psilocybin like an SSRI or something, studies similar to which BTW I remember reading 20 years ago.

They may be different animals, but what "researchers" (and frankly for some of these you could use that term loosely) are finding is basically that psilocybin raises/regulates serotonin in some ways, which again is not really unusual or controversial, and is done by all kinds of other things - including exercise, sex, supplements of various kinds etc..

Beyond that, stuff that is pleasurable and gives you a huge serotonin bump has it's own risks when done regularly.

I don't know why you are going off on the SSRI thing, I'm not advocating them, I'm pointing out that in most of the studies their things they are looking are related to treating psilocybin like an antidepressant, and that misses the context entirely, because you could do it with any number of chemical or biological things that raise serotonin, and probably get similar results, especially in these small scale studies. What i'm saying is these studies rely on the same silly reductionist model of treating depression that causes your average MD to think that Zoloft will "cure" people's depression. For that reason, to me at least, they are really unconvincing.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, honestly, I think they do not really understand why they work, only that they do work, and are highly effective at what they do. The "high" is part of why they work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?
Content:
newbie said:
My best guess is that it looks like a weird approach because one is not familiar to what it means to be liberated or coming close to being liberated.


Malcolm wrote:
What is a weird approach?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:


Saoshun said:
Keep dreaming. Chinese economy is worth $17.6 trillion, compared to America's $17.4 trillion. This is last 5 year before US will be attacked by china in alliance with russia and iran.

Tenso said:
India and Brazil will be a part of the coalition too. It will be between BRICS and Zionist backed NATO. The globalists/bankers are working fast to make WW3 happen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:



Johnny Dangerous said:
I agree, but part of that is that simply raising/regulating people's serotonin doesn't fix much of anything, a lot of the studies out there on psilocybin are just looking at it like a biological therapy, similar to SSRIs.

Malcolm wrote:
They are completely different animals. One gets you high and is enjoyable; the other makes you fat, turns you into an emotional zombie, and has no buzz.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?
Content:
Virgo said:
It was then I realized that the ease of khaita, the joyful easy music and movements really help to harmonize and balance ones energy.  Then I understood why Rinpoche said one day that he realized that this kind of joyful dance is connected with Dzogchen.  Dzogchen is about our life and we must work with our energy, that is why we do long life practice, work a little bit with astrology, medicine, and so on.

All the best,

Kevin

Karma_Yeshe said:
Sure you can use practices to harmonise your energy or you can work with astrology or medicine. But this does not mean that those things are liberating practices by themselves.

All the best to you, too!
Karma Yeshe

newbie said:
Don't need to be angry from such small issue.
Indeed one needs to know the purpose of Khaita joyful dances and there are so many times that Rinpoche insisted that I attend the webcasts.
That is why in return I insist he is a great teacher. I only had to win from him.

If you were to teach me Dzogchen or anything, I was dead and burried by now and a phowa transfer done to me that you forget about later.
And that is a great difference between his Buddha nature and your Buddha nature which of course I do not deny you having it.


I'm offtopic.
But I had to say this about treating people with respect and lack of respect.

Malcolm wrote:
???


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Yeah like I said, when something causes a big serotonin bump, it can obviously be used therapeutically for depression..really not controversial, also doesn't say there is anything particularly unique about it. There's is as much or more evidence that exercise (not to mention meditation) can do the same thing AFAIK, and obviously with fewer associated risks.

Not saying yay or nay to psychedelics on an individual basis, just saying, something "treating depression" in this regard is really nothing amazing, and in fact relies mostly on the idea that "treating depression" is mostly about balance of neurotransmitters anyway. If that were true, the boom in use of SSRI's would have entirely cured the American public of their depression. instead, they've gotten worse.

Malcolm wrote:
SSRI's don't work. And they cause people to gain weight, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:


Queequeg said:
Yes, write us in. Then y'all will really come to understand despotism!



Malcolm wrote:
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151210181635.htm

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/09/trip-treatment

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/17/health/magic-mushroom-chemical-depression/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/17/magic-mushrooms-depression-psychedelic-drugs-psilocybin

http://www.newsweek.com/magic-mushroom-ingredient-shows-promise-treating-severe-depression-small-study-460929

http://www.thelancet.com/pb/assets/raw/Lancet/pdfs/S2215036616300876.pdf

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/science-nature/could-magic-mushrooms-be-used-to-treat-anxiety-and-depression-97313121/

Etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Gradualism in Dzogchen teachings nowadays ?
Content:


chimechodra said:
Yantra Yoga is a complete path, and Rinpoche's uncle Togden Ugyen Tendzin achieved Rainbow Body primarily through those practices.

Malcolm wrote:
No, he achieved rainbow body through tögal, not through yantra.

chimechodra said:
It would be a severe mistake to view any of these precious skillful means as any higher/lower/"more serious" than another.

Malcolm wrote:
Yantra is a secondary practice, ChNN himself has stated this many times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are making claims that there are subjects and objects, words and imputations, these are all your assertions, not mine.

Sherab Dorje said:
So you are proclaiming that his claim that the allegations of imputation that he is contending are an assertion?


Malcolm wrote:
Stemming from his original premise that there is a basis of imputation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
maybay said:
Well then, I have an idea what I mean by dignity, but I'm not ready to define it.

anjali said:
Ok. Don't define it, but at least say what cluster of synonyms are related to how you are thinking of dignity. For example, here is a http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/dignity of synonyms for dignity. Which ones seem to fit?

maybay said:
Decency, self-respect and worthiness.

anjali said:
If you are willing to look at a definition, http://www.dictionary.com/browse/dignity is a standard definition. On that page is a word origin for dignity: 1175-1225; Middle English dignite < Anglo-French, Old French < Latin dignitās worthiness, equivalent to dign (us) worthy + -itās -ity. What do you like/dislike about the definitions or origin?

Just trying to flesh out what it is you are trying to get at. Especially as it relates to your comment:

maybay said:
The dignity of now.
There is an inherent goodness to the present moment. You do not need to evaluate it by comparing with other possibilities. When you can accept how ordinary things are, they appear dignified.

Malcolm wrote:
Seems all very Shambhalian to me. For example:
“Dignity comes from using your inherent human resources, by doing things with your own bare hands – on the spot, properly and beautifully. You can do that even in the worst of the worst situations, you can still make your life elegant.”
— Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Is his h the Dalai Lama the incarnation of Avalokitesvara b.
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
Malcolm is saying they fulfill a political need.

Iconodule said:
What I am asking is how those who still believe in the system resolve the issues that arise.


Malcolm wrote:
If you have pure vision, there is no problem. Impure vision causes all problems in samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Meaning of rangjung (rang byung)?
Content:




tomamundsen said:
What about a self-arisen statue, for example? Aren't those 'things'?

Malcolm wrote:
Here, self-arisen means naturally manifesting, without being made by a person.

tomamundsen said:
Sure. However, I still don't understand how that is not what Nagarjuna was negating in line 1 of the MMK. I'm still missing something...

Malcolm wrote:
here, "self-originated Tara" does not mean that the Tara image is emerging without cause and conditions, it means that no one made it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Is his h the Dalai Lama the incarnation of Avalokitesvara b.
Content:
Iconodule said:
Is that why the Karmapas are enthroned and revered as children?

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetans depend on it. In other words, there is a serious need for tulkus in Tibetan culture. It goes back to the idea of having gods as kings. Early Tibetan kings (the first seven) were regarded as divine beings who descended on cords of light to the earth, ruled, and then reascended.

High tulkus like HHDL, Karmapa, etc., fulfill this role in a very similar way, issuing forth as divine emanations, and then withdrawing when they pass on.

Iconodule said:
Right, which would indicate that they are not recognized merely as metaphorical emanations.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there is no law in Tibet that states you have to accept these ideas. Hence, there can be many incarnations of the same person at one time. It is not metaphorical, it is also very political, and no one much believes in the system at the highest levels, but they still continue to recognize tulkus because Tibetan lay people will not support monasteries that do not have them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 12:47 AM
Title: Re: Meaning of rangjung (rang byung)?
Content:
tomamundsen said:
Confession time. I still don't understand how this jibes with Nagarjuna:



Can anyone explain this?

conebeckham said:
Sure.  Wisdom is not a "thing."



tomamundsen said:
What about a self-arisen statue, for example? Aren't those 'things'?

Malcolm wrote:
Here, self-arisen means naturally manifesting, without being made by a person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Is his h the Dalai Lama the incarnation of Avalokitesvara b.
Content:
Iconodule said:
Is that why the Karmapas are enthroned and revered as children?

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetans depend on it. In other words, there is a serious need for tulkus in Tibetan culture. It goes back to the idea of having gods as kings. Early Tibetan kings (the first seven) were regarded as divine beings who descended on cords of light to the earth, ruled, and then reascended.

High tulkus like HHDL, Karmapa, etc., fulfill this role in a very similar way, issuing forth as divine emanations, and then withdrawing when they pass on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 12:29 AM
Title: Re: Meaning of rangjung (rang byung)?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Depending on context, it means "arising from oneself," for example rang byung ye shes is the "self-originated pristine consciousness" because you discovered it yourself.

In most cases, the reflexive pronoun "rang" refers to things that arise from or within one's own state.

chimechodra said:
So in the case of rang byung ye shes, who is the self that is discovering ye shes at that point? Is there a separate word that would describe the "discoverer" of ye shes? Or is it simply ye shes discovering ye shes?

Is rang byung ye shes a synonym for dharmakaya? And on a somewhat related note (perhaps this is a bigger or separate question), what is the relationship between rigpa and yeshe?

Malcolm wrote:
You can say that rang byung ye shes comes from one's subjective experience of luminosity, as above.

ye shes is a quality of rig pa. Hence the term rig pa'i ye shes.

According to Kumaracandara, rang 'byung ye shes is a synonym for omniscience.

According to the the Śrīvajramālāmahāyogatantraṭīkāgaṃbhīrārthadīpikā-nāma
So called self-originated pristine consciousness is the pristine consciousness known for oneself that does not arise from other conditions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Meaning of rangjung (rang byung)?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Depending on context, it means "arising from oneself," for example rang byung ye shes is the "self-originated pristine consciousness" because you discovered it yourself.

In most cases, the reflexive pronoun "rang" refers to things that arise from or within one's own state.

Losal Samten said:
What's the difference between rang rig and so sor rang rig?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing much really. The former is a condensation for the latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 20th, 2016 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Meaning of rangjung (rang byung)?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We can use the example from Ārya-mañjuśrīnāmasaṃgīti-vyākhyāna:
Here, some masters assert that "self-originated" means an entity that does not depend on cause and conditions. However, "self-originated" means that because of arising from oneself, it is self-originate. In uncommon parlance, others claim it means the appearance of the kāyas and pristine consciousnesses arise to oneself.
Another definition can be found given by Viryavajra in his commentary on Cakrasamvara Root tantra
Self-originated: since there is arising from the cause and condition of experiencing the intrinsic luminosity of the mind, but not arising from temporary causes and conditions, there is "self-origination."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Herbie said:
That is pretty ... well let me put it this way: there is neither one nor one''s aggregates. But consciousness nevertheless projects a self. That is called "imputation of a self". Understand?

Malcolm wrote:
So now you are claiming there is a consciousness which is capable of making a projection?

Herbie said:
No I am not claiming anything. All merely depends on your imputation. I am existing only depending on your imputations and so do all your imputations depending on my words and my words ...

Malcolm wrote:
You are making claims that there are subjects and objects, words and imputations, these are all your assertions, not mine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Meaning of rangjung (rang byung)?
Content:
chimechodra said:
Hi all,

So I've been trying to wrap my head around the meaning of rang jung lately. Anytime I'm reading Dzogchen-related material, I'm always seeing the terms "Self-existent" or "self arisen" or "spontaneously existing" (I'm assuming these are all different translations of rangjung) or what not and usually my eyes just gloss over these words, but I'm realizing I don't really have any real sense of what rang jung actually means. To my best understanding, would it be accurate to say that it connotes a sense of timelessness, of being beyond causality, beginningless/endless? If anyone could clarify the meaning of rangjung a little more, or point me towards any reading materials, provide examples/analogies/metaphors/etc. that would be really helpful. Thank you guys!!


Malcolm wrote:
Depending on context, it means "arising from oneself," for example rang byung ye shes is the "self-originated pristine consciousness" because you discovered it yourself.

In most cases, the reflexive pronoun "rang" refers to things that arise from or within one's own state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:
Karma Dorje said:
DMT does not cause heedlessness.

AlexMcLeod said:
I wonder how one can remain mindful and hallucinate at the same time.

Malcolm wrote:
Hence the problem with samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
http://reset.me/study/first-ever-human-trial-finds-magic-mushrooms-beat-severe-depression/

http://anonhq.com/heres-why-big-pharma-lobbies-against-cannabis-legalization/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Loppon Tenzin Namdak's opinion
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It seems to me that this thread will go like all other threads criticizing well known teachers in the West.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 3:36 AM
Title: Re: Loppon Tenzin Namdak's opinion
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
What is "material existence" to pervade in a Dzogchen context anyway though?

Malcolm wrote:
Physical entities are non-sentient, and cannot possess "rig pa." This is a position common to Dzogchen in Both Buddhism and Bon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: An interesting quote from HHST
Content:
smcj said:
You guys have balls to cop to believing in buddhas that help. That's not politically correct here at DW.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas help in the same way the sun shines, impartially and without any thought.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Loppon Tenzin Namdak's opinion
Content:
tingdzin said:
I too would like to hear some documentation of the claim that Lopon Tenzin Namdak disapproves of Tenzin Wangyal's books.

krodha said:
Fairly certain the main documentation is Jean-Luc's blog post(s) regarding the khyab rig issue.


Malcolm wrote:
My Bad, it was Dorje Pizza that was being given the smack down, not Jax (but he has the same idea...)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Loppon Tenzin Namdak's opinion
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Its all out there on the internet, and in books openly published this and that Rinpoche.

There are really no "secrets" in Tibetan Buddhism any more.

M


BuddhaFollower said:
Are you saying there isn't any secret stuff you know that isn't translated into English already?

Malcolm wrote:
Everything is in English in terms of core "secrets." Now lets let tingzin have his thread back...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Seven Line Prayer by Ngak'chang Rinpoche
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I find that DJKR's trance version is most effective in this degenerate age, see:
http://www.followingyourfootsteps.org/col.jsp?id=104


Malcolm wrote:
It is not very good techno, just sayin...

dzogchungpa said:
Sigh, everyone's a critic.


Malcolm wrote:
When teachers get into techno or rap, it usually ends badly. Examples:

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]
(satire)

It's even worse when students get in on the action:

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Loppon Tenzin Namdak's opinion
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
It would be good if some of the senior students of TWR here decided to stand up and speak out about it, too. Otherwise we hear just the voice of the accuser, not of the defendant.


Malcolm wrote:
I am sure they are aware and choose to ignore it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Loppon Tenzin Namdak's opinion
Content:
tingdzin said:
,  Malcolm. I am not interested in started another secrecy debate. If you have internet references on the topic I asked about, those would be appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
I think Mutsuk has actually talked about this either here or over on Vajracakra.

It is related, I am sure, to the debate over TW's treatment of the notion of "khyab rig." As you might recall, JLA slapped down Jackson Peterson hard over this issue in two or three blog posts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Seven Line Prayer by Ngak'chang Rinpoche
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Its a little strange.

tiagolps said:
Would strange be a bad thing?  CNN's version is powerful too.

Malcolm wrote:
It all depends on you. Many of these melodies come from Guru Rinpoche directly in visions. I think it is better to use a traditional version. For example, I use one Terma melody for the seven line prayer when doing Konchog Chidu, another when doing the medium Thun, another when doing the Namcho Ngondro and so on., etc.

These melodies themselves carry great blessings. It is better to use them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Loppon Tenzin Namdak's opinion
Content:
tingdzin said:
A spinoff from another thread (the one about Orgyan Chowang's book, in the Dzogchen forum).

I too would like to hear some documentation of the claim that Lopon Tenzin Namdak disapproves of Tenzin Wangyal's books. TW has said in many of his books that he seeks approval from TN for what he writes. TW also has said repeatedly that one is not going to "get" Dzogchen from a book or a brief teaching.

Mutsuk, Jean-Luc, Dmitri, any comments?

I am not aiming to stir up trouble, or make a mountain out of a molehill. I have the greatest respect for Lopon Rinpoche, but have also found TWR's books quite to-the-point and useful, and not as open about (formerly) secret teachings as those of ma..other teachers.

Malcolm wrote:
Its all out there on the internet, and in books openly published this and that Rinpoche.

There are really no "secrets" in Tibetan Buddhism any more.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Seven Line Prayer by Ngak'chang Rinpoche
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
I find that DJKR's trance version is most effective in this degenerate age, see:
http://www.followingyourfootsteps.org/col.jsp?id=104


Malcolm wrote:
It is not very good techno, just sayin...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Saoshun said:
When the china will be first power of the world

Malcolm wrote:
This will never happen. China just does not have the wealth, and neither does Russia.


Saoshun said:
Keep dreaming. Chinese economy is worth $17.6 trillion, compared to America's $17.4 trillion. This is last 5 year before US will be attacked by china in alliance with russia and iran.

Malcolm wrote:
China's wealth exists solely because we supply them with a market place for their cheap labor. But their labor costs are rising as their middle class expands, and as their middle class runs up appalling levels of consumer debt, their economy is becoming more and more unstable.

Quite frankly, China's economic growth is completely unsustainable in the long term, which is why all of China's wealthy people are leaving China.

So, we will see you back here in 2021, and see where it all stands.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 19th, 2016 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Seven Line Prayer by Ngak'chang Rinpoche
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Its a little strange.

This is more normal:

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2016 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Saoshun said:
When the china will be first power of the world

Malcolm wrote:
This will never happen. China just does not have the wealth, and neither does Russia.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2016 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: ChNN's Vajra Armour teaching
Content:
Vasana said:
Can anyone clarify for me if there is a specific melody to accompany this mantra?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2016 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: An interesting quote from HHST
Content:


smcj said:
But seriously, has anyone actually studied the last chapter of the "Uttaratantra", or even read it?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2016 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Is it all America's Fault? Discuss - From POTUS part 2
Content:
Queequeg said:
I think step 1 in neutralizing corporate power in the US is a constitutional amendment declaring that a corporation is not a person.

treehuggingoctopus said:
That would be a start.

Malcolm wrote:
Well. considering that the the SCOTUS has ruled again and again that they are, this is unlikely to happen anytime soon sad to say


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2016 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: An interesting quote from HHST
Content:
smcj said:
Ok, so then what is "Buddha Activity" ?
Evidently Malcolm doesn't like the subject. That tells me it must be interesting!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 18th, 2016 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: An interesting quote from HHST
Content:
smcj said:
Ok, so then what is "Buddha Activity" ?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I think we need to throw Zors in their direction.


Queequeg said:
Google is referring me to zebra-horse hybrids. Whats a Zors? That looks like something Mohamed would have had an aneurysm over.

Malcolm wrote:
The term "zor" literally mean "sickle" in Tibet. It is a kind of pre-Buddhist rite used for mowing down one's enemies that has survived into Tibetan Buddhism from the pre-Buddhist period, mainly employed in the Nyingma school.

We can also sick the planetary demon Rahula (one of the Dzogchen wisdom protectors) on them:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)
Content:
Queequeg said:
I think the borders in the region need to be redrawn. I think everyone in the region thinks this, though there is no agreement on how. Sunnis and Shi'a need to be separated.
Excellent overview and analysis of present conditions in the Middle East flowing from the rather arbitrary national borders drawn, literally in the sand, by two Europeans over 100 years ago.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2016/0516/Why-100-year-old-borders-drawn-by-two-Europeans-still-define-the-Middle-East


Malcolm wrote:
I think we need to throw Zors in their direction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


Virgo said:
Malcolm, is it better for us to pre-order?

Kevin
I just asked because sometimes it is better for the publisher or the author.

Kevin


Malcolm wrote:
I think it will be available a month earlier through wisdom directly


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Is it all America's Fault? Discuss - From POTUS part 2
Content:
Saoshun said:
Democracy = failure.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Whereas totalitarian dictatorships are a resounding success...


Saoshun said:
Democracy is totalitarian when people are dictators to the each other. And democracy is bound to be idiocracy which can be seem clearly for those who do not close their eyes to the rational matters of reality and society around.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche in Athens, Greece
Content:
ratna said:
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the info. I have a silly question: Do the Tröma empowerment, Ngakpa ordination, and hair empowerment come as a package, or can one take just the empowerment and still get haircuts afterwards?

R


Malcolm wrote:
Generally, you can ask to be pardoned during the skra dbang, i.e. you receive it, but you apologize for not keeping it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 7:28 PM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It will do nothing to remove the suffering of change. One cannot do anything at all about suffering. Suffering is a result. When you are experiencing it, it is too late to do anything about it. One can prevent suffering by refraining from actions based on afflictions. That is all.

pael said:
How to avoid suffering of change? Are neutral experiences all-pervasive sufferings?

Malcolm wrote:
Non attachment


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: healing crystals in buddhism??
Content:


kdolma said:
Which Tibetan Medical texts?? Thanks for replying back

Malcolm wrote:
If you look in explanatory tantra of the Four Medical Tantras, you can find some information there.

kdolma said:
Yes, I thought you were going to mention Four Medical Tantras, and asked if in case you knew some other information but I guess its quite limited..Thanks for responding though

Malcolm wrote:
Supposedly Jigme Lingpa wrote a small treatise on gems and their uses. There are other sources, but they are all in Tibetan, not translated yet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what kind of happiness. The suffering of change is happiness.

maybay said:
The BDSM kind. Our personal favourite over here at DW.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is just a fact.



No, they are path Dharmas, therefore they are conditioned but unafflicted.

maybay said:
Traditionally you're right.
But in common parlance, and there is a place for such a thing, Bodhisattvas are long suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
That has nothing do with being on the bhumis. And, since eighth stage bodhisattvas are free from the afflictive obscuration, they have no causes for suffering at all. Bodhisattvas with suffering belong only to the impure bhumis.

maybay said:
It is only because of their resolve that the suffering of conditioned existence is seen differently. It is not extinguished like for an Arhat.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not extinguished for arhats.


maybay said:
Of course it will.

Malcolm wrote:
It will do nothing to remove the suffering of change. One cannot do anything at all about suffering. Suffering is a result. When you are experiencing it, it is too late to do anything about it. One can prevent suffering by refraining from actions based on afflictions. That is all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 4:44 AM
Title: Re: healing crystals in buddhism??
Content:


kdolma said:
1. But would eating crystals have negative effects on the body, since we can't digest them?

2. Where can I find this information, any Sutras?? Thanks for responding!

Malcolm wrote:
Gems need to be specially prepared in order to used as medicine, they are generally reduced to ash.

Also some gems can be worn, and have certain benefits, for example, people with liver problems often wear turquoise. Zi stones are worn to ward off strokes. Diamonds can absorb obstacles. But they have to be large, 2 karats at least. These things are all explained in Traditional Tibetan Medical texts.

kdolma said:
Which Tibetan Medical texts?? Thanks for replying back

Malcolm wrote:
If you look in explanatory tantra of the Four Medical Tantras, you can find some information there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: healing crystals in buddhism??
Content:
kdolma said:
what would Buddha say about healing crystals?

-do they have any significance in buddhism or not?

-i think people who meditate with crystals are bogus, more like new age rather than actual buddhadharma but i dont know if there are benefits from that

-i do know that tibetans claim to wear a lot of coral and turquoise because they have some healing properties...

-any thoughts??

Malcolm wrote:
Precious Gems are the most important medicines in Buddhadharma. Their healing properties are well known. But since they are expensive, and difficult to obtain, we use herbs instead.

M

kdolma said:
1. But would eating crystals have negative effects on the body, since we can't digest them?

2. Where can I find this information, any Sutras?? Thanks for responding!

Malcolm wrote:
Gems need to be specially prepared in order to used as medicine, they are generally reduced to ash.

Also some gems can be worn, and have certain benefits, for example, people with liver problems often wear turquoise. Zi stones are worn to ward off strokes. Diamonds can absorb obstacles. But they have to be large, 2 karats at least. These things are all explained in Traditional Tibetan Medical texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
maybay said:
Well then, I have an idea what I mean by dignity, but I'm not ready to define it. Some people think it is part of a fourth turning of the wheel.

dzogchungpa said:
Perhaps it is part of what some call the http://www.dharmaocean.org/episode-105-yana-of-life/.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh yawn. Shambhala is a new turning of the wheel of Dharma only in Ray's febrile imagination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
pael said:
How we can be happy before enlightenment even one moment?

maybay said:
We can die without fear, or at least without regret. I would add that we can die with dignity, just as we can live with dignity, no matter what our experiences.

pael said:
Is happiness suffering?

maybay said:
No.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what kind of happiness. The suffering of change is happiness.



pael said:
Are bodhisattva bhumis suffering?
Yes.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are path Dharmas, therefore they are conditioned but unafflicted.



pael said:
How we can avoid suffering of change?
Focus on your practice.

Malcolm wrote:
That won't help.


pael said:
How many things isn't suffering?
Only the unconditioned.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

No, as mentioned above, path Dharmas are conditioned but unafflicted. Therefore, they are neither suffering nor a cause of suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If you don't believe me, read Longchenpa. And if you don't believe him, let me remind you that according to ChNN, there is no Tibetan who is more authoritative on explaining the meaning of Dzogchen that Longchenpa.

BuddhaFollower said:
So does than mean ChNN disagrees with Khyentse Wangpo:

Malcolm wrote:
Khyentse Wangpo opines that the Gongpa Zangthal is the most profound of the Nyinthig cycles.
It means that Khyentse Wangpo thinks between the Vima Nynthig, Khandro Nyinthig and the GZ, the last is the most profound. It has nothing do with Longchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
and thats not soul crushingly depressing, right?

Malcolm wrote:
If you understand Dzogchen teachings properly, no not at all.

Fa Dao said:
because there is nothing to be Realized or that can be?

Malcolm wrote:
When one understands Dzogchen, one understands what it means to be realized, and how to go about attaining that state. So one can relax a bit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
boda said:
A rather rude response, especially for a global moderator. Are you guys (mods) all on the same page in forum culture cultivation? It appears not. Anyway, I'm sure someone could define, classify, catalog, and analyze a great number of obstacles and find the activity quite meaningful, but don't you agree that the primary obstacle is what Herbie suggests?

Malcolm wrote:
No, since one does not need to have aggregates in order to impute a self.

Herbie said:
That is pretty ... well let me put it this way: there is neither one nor one''s aggregates. But consciousness nevertheless projects a self. That is called "imputation of a self". Understand?

Malcolm wrote:
So now you are claiming there is a consciousness which is capable of making a projection?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:


maybay said:
Most people are not trying to attain Buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
Most people have not even heard the word "Dharma."

newbie said:
That is because they are guided by wordly views and thus heard of impressive others, of prestige and charisma.

Malcolm wrote:
It because they do not yet have the merit to meet the Dharma, that is all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
pael said:
How can you reborn at Zandok palri or get there and see Padmasambhava?

Malcolm wrote:
Recite this aspiration to Zangdog Palri.

BuddhaFollower said:
What about the Tötrengtsal mantra?

Malcolm wrote:
That will work too.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 17th, 2016 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
fckw said:
What I also find interesting is the silent assumption, that there's really nobody in this forum, who actually has realized Dzogchen (e.g. rainbow body). Well, for all I know, I could actually be the only one in here who has not.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a silent assumption. If Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has said many times over the years that he has not realized Dzogchen, how is it possible that someone here has?

Fa Dao said:
and thats not soul crushingly depressing, right?

Malcolm wrote:
If you understand Dzogchen teachings properly, no not at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:


maybay said:
Most people are not trying to attain Buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
Most people have not even heard the word "Dharma."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...

Losal Samten said:
Would you give the lung for this at some point, please?


Malcolm wrote:
It is possible


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: healing crystals in buddhism??
Content:
kdolma said:
what would Buddha say about healing crystals?

-do they have any significance in buddhism or not?

-i think people who meditate with crystals are bogus, more like new age rather than actual buddhadharma but i dont know if there are benefits from that

-i do know that tibetans claim to wear a lot of coral and turquoise because they have some healing properties...

-any thoughts??

Malcolm wrote:
Precious Gems are the most important medicines in Buddhadharma. Their healing properties are well known. But since they are expensive, and difficult to obtain, we use herbs instead.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
maybay said:
Well then, I have an idea what I mean by dignity, but I'm not ready to define it. Some people think it is part of a fourth turning of the wheel. Instead of arguing against something you cannot define, join us in exploring what it could mean.

Malcolm wrote:
Don't be coy.

maybay said:
I genuinely don't have a definition for you. I'm not even sure I will ever have one, not for the scholar. Dignity is for you as a human.

Malcolm wrote:
I guess for you "dignity" means somehow to rise above the crushing mess of samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
pael said:
How can you reborn at Zandok palri or get there and see Padmasambhava?

Malcolm wrote:
Recite this aspiration to Zangdog Palri.


BuddhaFollower said:
I read somewhere Guru Rinpoche kicks you out if you don't have perfect samaya.

Don't remember where.

Malcolm wrote:
I rather doubt it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
maybay said:
Well then, I have an idea what I mean by dignity, but I'm not ready to define it. Some people think it is part of a fourth turning of the wheel. Instead of arguing against something you cannot define, join us in exploring what it could mean.

Malcolm wrote:
Don't be coy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
pael said:
How can you reborn at Zandok palri or get there and see Padmasambhava?

Malcolm wrote:
Recite this aspiration to Zangdog Palri.

The Melody of the Quick Path of the Vidyādharas: The Profound Aspiration of Traveling to the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain
E ma ho:
The natural objectless dharmadhatu is free from proliferation,
the clear appearances of the essence of pristine consciousness are naturally perfected,
transformations of the varied dramatic play of union:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

On the island of Lanka, the terrifying rakshasa land in the southwest, 
amidst many cities of flesh-eating rakshasas
is a very cold smooth lake rippled by waves:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In the middle of that lake are male and female nāgas
adorned with beautiful ornaments, attractive, showing smiling faces, 
with hands gesturing with devotion, and billowing clouds of the wealth of nagas:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Water birds with beautiful plumage
swim happily, give throat to song, and look from the side.
Golden fish undulate and move quickly. The crocodiles are glossy and bright:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

There in the middle is a ruby mountain,
huge, high and great, radiating brilliant light rays everywhere. 
The base is the country of the nāgas, and the peak touches the realm of form:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

On its slopes dakinis perform a ganacakra at the four times, 
in the overhangs are fans of kusa grass and inside of small compounds
male and female siddha vidyādharas practice samadhi:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

The peak is a vast area, beyond all measure. 
The ground is made from the seven precious substances. 
The surface is even like the palm of the hand, brilliant with lights rays.
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Upon that is a self-originating celestial mansion 
showing the four activities with stacks of rock crystal, tiger’s eye, 
ruby and sapphire in the four directions:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Above it, a palace of pure white crystal
is the well built, exquisite Vijaya palace;
also above it is a beautiful coral celestial temple:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.
 
Three stories, with four corners, with an outer courtyard ornamented with checkered patterns, 
with jewel beams, cross pieces, and projections;
four doors in the four directions ornamented with pediments:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Filling the center is a 
vast three storied canopy beautified with
sapphire, silver, the finest gold and so on:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

The roof is adorned with a shining victorious jewel-emanated vajra finial 
and beautiful railings.
A variety of silk ribbons flutter:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Decorated with emanated hanging nets and half nets of
beautiful garlands of many types of gems,
small bells are rung by the fluttering hanging silk borders:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

When moved by a soft breeze small gold and silver bells, 
half-moons, vajras, and fly whisks festooned with gems, 
jingle with the pleasing sound of Dharma:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

The four porticos are adorned with a Dharma wheel, 
a five-colored umbrella and a male and female deer, 
ornamented with diamond lintels and lapis lazuli door locks:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Streamers of desirable things hang down to the foundation of the walls, 
an assembly of beautiful, lovely goddesses
dance blissfully, smile charmingly and sing songs:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Like the display of Bodhisattva Samantabhadra, 
billowing inconceivable clouds 
of inner, outer, secret and reality offerings:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Wish-fulfilling jewels appear outside everywhere,
the tiles of the three staged border
are beautified with nets of pearl bells:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Above that, the white crystal Bodhi Stupa
radiates white light and is adorned with garlands of blue lotuses
surrounded by one thousand and two beautiful statues:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Surrounding the celestial mansion is a rainbow pavilion. 
Eight great heroic dancers sing songs of power
dancing with bell-festooned bangles and the sound of drums:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Inside of the clouds of various excellent colors in the sky, 
are an assembly of beautiful sons and daughters of the gods,
well formed, adorned with ornaments, beautiful to be behold:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Umbrellas, victory banners, pennants, cymbals, 
vinas, flutes, lutes with melodious praise,
fragrant incense and washing water manifest in the form of musicians:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In all directions throughout space without interruption
in the middle of the clouds of interwoven rainbows of five lights, 
a cool rain of flowers float, swirl and fall:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.
 
All scents of self-originated fragrant incense 
permeate that whole buddhafield, inside, outside and in between, 
just like sap before summer growth:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Luminous without any mention of “day” or “night”,
with a sun and moon which never set, 
arising without obstructions, everywhere is pervaded with light:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

A vajra fence, beautified with the seven precious substances, 
is decorated with many flowers by gods. 
One can never see it enough since it shines with its own radiance:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Bathing ponds, very pure and beautiful,
with rosaries of slow ripples shining with shimmering rainbow patterns,
adorned with golden swans, permeated with sweet scents:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In meadows, medicine groves, and bunches of kumuda flowers
tiny bees of gold and turquoise hover and soar, collecting nectar. 
Many beautiful wild animals frolic:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

A wish-granting tree made out of jewels
has dancing limbs and perfect leaves,
adorned with hanging strands of peals, gold and turquoise:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

White, yellow, red and green emanated birds
fly beautifully and eat its fruit,
melodiously proclaiming the Dharma with sweet tones:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Between brilliant shining ruby cliffs
rivers of stainless amrita slowly flow,
peacefully spreading out on the jeweled delta:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

The wind that slowly moves sands of gold,
piles up dunes of various wish-fulfilling gems,
turquoise, coral, pearl, lapis lazuli, Zi and agate:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

On that peak of the mountain that starts in the rakshasa country
is five colored rainbow bridge of the fortune of liberation,
lined with welcoming dakinis who bear various offerings:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In the center of the celestial palace
on a self-originated jeweled throne, in the middle of a lotus of one thousand petals,
are sun and moon discs, full like the moon of the fifteenth day:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In the center of a pavilion of interlaced five colored rainbow lightrays
is Orgyen Chenpo Nangsid Zilnon,
the essence of the Sugatas of the three times:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain

His rainbow body, the vajra body, is the union of appearance and emptiness,
with a pinkish complexion, blazing with the major and minor marks,
with all signs and meaning perfect, adorned with silks and jewels:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

The unimpeded lion’s roar, possessing the sixty-limbed melodious voice of Brahma,
roars the sound of the Dharma, the essence of profound secret intimate instructions, 
the inexpressible unceasing nature:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

The great bliss that has always been pure is the vajra mind,
possessing omniscient pristine consciousness that knows clearly and without confusion
the unceasing phenomena of samsara and nirvana within the non-arisen vast expanse:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain

His compassionate activity is the supreme wish-fulfilling gem beyond example,
acting on behalf of any possible wish
of sentient beings pervading space:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In his lap is his own luminosity, Samantabhadri Yeshe Tsogyal,
pinkish complexion, youthful,
delighting in intercourse with the mood of non-dual bliss:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Above and in the four directions on lotus, sun and moon seats
are the five emanated Thotrengtsals in union with their consorts,
in the colors of the directions, youthful and blazing brilliantly:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In the front ranks are the vidyādharas of India and Tibet
overwhelming samsara and nirvana with non-conceptual experience,
show peaceful, increasing, power and fierce activities:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In the ranks to the right are panditas and translators of India and Tibet
murmuring the melodious sounds of the Dharma of speech and text
of intimate instructions of sutra, tantra, and essence tantras:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In the ranks on the left are emanated tertons,
maintaining ascetic conduct, roaring the fearless lion’s roar 
of ceaseless vajra sons:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Behind him, in the expanse of squares of five lights of pristine consciousness,
are stacked volumes of the sublime Dharma of the nine vehicles,
showing their cloth labels, resounding with the intrinsic sound of the vowels and consonants:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

On the periphery are wisdom dakinis
dancing dramatically in all sorts of beautiful ways, 
tiny bells jingling:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

On the inner veranda are the assembly of brother and sister protectors awaiting commands,
with fierce power and blazing like brilliant fire 
at play in an expanse of a seething triangular ocean of blood:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

On the outer veranda are the assembly of Kinkara and Lanka couples,
the ksetrapalas, the four swift messengers, the seven mothers, the four sisters, 
pisachis, shakinis, and female place guardians: 
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

On the second story, in the center of a pavilion of rainbow light
is Avalokiteshvara, the giver of compassion holding a lotus,
surrounded by his retinue, the play of self-appearing pristine consciousness:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

On the upper story, in a sphere of self-originated bliss,
is Samantabhadra Adinath Amitabha
demonstrating the symbolic Dharma to a retinue of rigpa’s own display:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

At the four doors are the four directional kings with their messengers. 
There is freedom from any causes for misfortune 
because they stand guard wrathfully:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In brief, the qualities of that buddhafield are unimaginable.
The assembly of the three roots, buddhas and bodhisattvas
always gather there like dust in a sunbeam:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Internally, it is the buddhafield of the great bliss of Samantabhadra, 
the originally pure, naturally perfected dharmadhātu of the basis free from proliferation, 
a self-originated celestial mansion possessing the supreme of all aspects:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Light rays stream out everywhere without any direction or partiality,
beautified with wisdom ornaments of forms and bindus,
a limitless array spreading out lacking center or periphery:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

In the center of that is the vase body, one’s own self-originated rigpa,
Padmasambhava, who has never been the same nor different than the three kāyas,
surrounded by retinue of his own display appearing in every kind of way:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Having seen the face of the natural state of vidyā 
free from any external action or effort in the state of relaxation free from activity,
empowered on the great throne of the unmoving dharmadhātu:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

As such, the non-conceptual external buddhafield
is Sudarshana, a naturally perfected limitless array.
Through bringing sincere intense devotion to mind:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

When the time of death arrives 
May no harm or suffering occur
to myself and all father and mother sentient beings :
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Pushed from behind by red winds of karma,
escorted from the front by the servants of Yamarāja, 
when the breath stops and leaves this illusory body:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Without attachment to relatives, food, drink, or wealth,
tears streaming from my eyes, palms clasped together,
offering a melodious supplication over and over again:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Without fear of the deluded visions of the bardo,
may the compassion of the Vidyadhara of Orgyen, Padmasambahva,
shine forth from the natural buddhafield, Lotus Light:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

And at that very moment, from the direction of that buddhafield,
dancing blissful dakinis 
project a rainbow bridge:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Mother Tsogyal, heroes and assembly of dakinis,
come scattering flowers, dancing to the sound of harmonious music
holding cymbals, umbrellas, and banners:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain

From smiling mouths declaring “Undistracted child of a good familty,
now you are going to the Lotus Light Palace”,
physically taking one by the hand:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Surrounded by an assembly of heros and dakinis,
when leaving on the rainbow bridge,
having crossed it in a single instant like a trick of the eyes:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

When led before the father Guru,
through seeing his face with eyes of pure devotion,
the delighted bliss of a joyful mind arises:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

The eyes of his pleasantly smiling face are wide open,
in pleased manner he says,
“Child, you have come before me”, providing solace:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

Having emanated offerings, like the cloud of offerings emanated
by the bodhisattva Samantabhadra,
all of the assembly of gods of that land are pleased:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

The Vidyādharas are arranged in ranks, 
mixed inseparably with the mind of Padmsambhava,
having mastered the throne of the dharmadhātu, enjoying the stage of a vajra holder:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

The innate form of compassion from the empty dharmadhātu,
with the dance of the net of illusion that tames all,
his omniscience provides solace to all migrating beings at the same time:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain.

By the blessings of the Guru, the union of the three roots,
and the undeceiving truth of the real nature of phenomena,
and by the power of my sublime pure devotion:
May I be born in the Lotus Light Palace on the Glorious Copper Colored Mountain. 

This is the essence of the most profound.
When the time of death arrives,
if this is recited just once with intense faith and yearning,
without any doubt at all one will definitely be
born in the Lotus Light Palace;
what need to mention whether or not
those who recite this regularly will be reborn there?
Encouraged through the circumstances of the passing away of my nun, Tenzin Zangmo, I, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa recited these profound words of aspiration under a overhanging rock. May this be a cause for the liberation of all migrating beings from the ocean of samsara and [may they] be reborn in the Palace of Lotus Light. 

Translated for the Opening of the Zangdok Palri Temple by Acharya Malcolm Smith, 11/25/09


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
maybay said:
Well we're not going to get anywhere like this. Did I say you would find dignity in samsara? How about you start with what you think dignity means and we'll go from there.

Malcolm wrote:
How about you define what you mean by "dignity," since you introduced the concept into this discussion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:


newbie said:
You ascertain there is no dignity, and I say there is.


Malcolm wrote:
There is no dignity in samsara. What is samsara? Samsara is the three kinds of suffering.

What are the three kinds of suffering? The suffering of suffering, the suffering of change and the all-pervasive suffering.

There is no dignity in suffering, there is no dignity in ignorance. Ignorance is the cause of samsara and the cause of suffering.

As Maitreya states, there isn't even the head of a pin of happiness in samsara. What room could there be for dignity?

maybay said:
There's room for Maitreya.

Malcolm wrote:
Maitreya is free from the suffering of samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:


newbie said:
You ascertain there is no dignity, and I say there is.


Malcolm wrote:
There is no dignity in samsara. What is samsara? Samsara is the three kinds of suffering.

What are the three kinds of suffering? The suffering of suffering, the suffering of change and the all-pervasive suffering.

There is no dignity in suffering, there is no dignity in ignorance. Ignorance is the cause of samsara and the cause of suffering.

As Maitreya states, there isn't even the head of a pin of happiness in samsara. What room could there be for dignity?

newbie said:
Then because of ignorance, we request the turn of wheel of dharma and we supplicate the Buddha-s not to pass into nirvana.

Malcolm wrote:
That does not mean there is dignity in samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That is just a lot of conceptuality.

Astus said:
What isn't?
Anyone can see buddhanature, they just have to have the method.
E.g. "zazen is entering directly into the ocean of buddha-nature and manifesting the body of the Buddha" ( http://antaiji.org/en/classics/english-zazen-yojinki/ )

Malcolm wrote:
That's not what I am talking about.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: is Buddhism a religious faith?
Content:
AlexMcLeod said:
If it is truly the Ultimate, it is immune because the Ultimate beyond description or analysis.

Astus said:
What makes something the ultimate?

AlexMcLeod said:
Ultimate is merely a shorthand term some people use for Ultimate Reality. Or True Nature, or I've heard a bunch of other colorful phrases people use to describe it.

Malcolm wrote:
The term "ultimate" simply means an object of an undeceived cognition, for example, the direct perception of emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
newbie said:
No, this is wrong. We do prostrations to cut down pride, not dignity.

Malcolm wrote:
What does this have to do with my statement?

newbie said:
You ascertain there is no dignity, and I say there is.


Malcolm wrote:
There is no dignity in samsara. What is samsara? Samsara is the three kinds of suffering.

What are the three kinds of suffering? The suffering of suffering, the suffering of change and the all-pervasive suffering.

There is no dignity in suffering, there is no dignity in ignorance. Ignorance is the cause of samsara and the cause of suffering.

As Maitreya states, there isn't even the head of a pin of happiness in samsara. What room could there be for dignity?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
maybay said:
The noble truth of suffering. It's your choice.

Malcolm wrote:
The truth of suffering per se, isn't "noble." This is a persistent mistranslation. It is the "Āryas' truth of suffering," in other words, āryas see the truth of suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
newbie said:
No, this is wrong. We do prostrations to cut down pride, not dignity.

Malcolm wrote:
What does this have to do with my statement?

maybay said:
If Buddhahood is inevitable (men and women), and there is no place for provisional teachings, then whatever humiliation comes your way must surely be dignified. But then we should call it humbleness, the temperance of pride.

Malcolm wrote:
Who said there was no place for provisional teachings?

But in general, what kind of dignity can be found in the three kinds of suffering. The nobility or dignity of suffering is an entirely Christian idea. I don't see that it has much place in Buddhadharma. For example, apart from Trungpa's scene, where they waffle on a lot about "dignity," I don't see any references to "dignity" with respect to samsara the sūtras and tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
fckw said:
What I also find interesting is the silent assumption, that there's really nobody in this forum, who actually has realized Dzogchen (e.g. rainbow body). Well, for all I know, I could actually be the only one in here who has not.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a silent assumption. If Chogyal Namkhai Norbu has said many times over the years that he has not realized Dzogchen, how is it possible that someone here has?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
newbie said:
No, this is wrong. We do prostrations to cut down pride, not dignity.

Malcolm wrote:
What does this have to do with my statement?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:


Astus said:
The buddha-nature is already perfect with all the qualities of buddhahood. The reason buddha-nature is not seen is grasping appearances. Once that mistaken identification is gone, the buddha-mind can manifest.

Malcolm wrote:
That is just a lot of conceptuality.

Anyone can see buddhanature, they just have to have the method.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
maybay said:
Suppose instead of non-suffering, or truth, the benchmark was dignity. Then we would have space for a modicum of pain, and we would neither beat ourselves up with truths nor barricade ourselves away from every possible harm. There would be topics of discussion we could conscionably ignore, and we would neither prattle on about trivialities nor grow ego-maniacal about acquiring knowledge. Conflicts would not be avoided outright, but weighed up as either dignified or undignified. The elderly would be respected. What had been turned over would be made upright. What balance we could achieve between study, contemplation and meditation. From the island of Dharma would beam the lighthouse of dignity, guiding us through the tumultuous ocean of uncertainty. We would never lose sight of what is most important. What balance we could achieve between our mundane and our spiritual efforts!

Malcolm wrote:
There is no dignity in samsara, none whatsoever. It is basically just an exercise in constant humiliation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I would say that is the essence of the Hinayān̄a path. But the Mahāyāna path also includes the attainment of omniscience.

Astus said:
What is the reason for attaining omniscience? Isn't it to liberate all beings from suffering?

Malcolm wrote:
You can say that.

However, the point is that the Buddha's path is not only about freedom from negative qualities. It is also about the attainment of positive qualities, such as the four fearlessness, the eighteen unshared qualities of a Buddha and so on.

So while it is true that the motive for the attainment of these positive qualities is in order to liberate other sentient beings, they are also positive in their own right, apart from that motivation.

The negative view of awakening that you consistently portray also shortens one's lifespan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 16th, 2016 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
Wayfarer said:
As always, I disagree.

Astus said:
What do you say about the purpose of the Buddha's teachings as being for liberation from suffering?

Malcolm wrote:
I would say that is the essence of the Hinayān̄a path. But the Mahāyāna path also includes the attainment of omniscience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2016 at 11:53 PM
Title: Re: Saga Dawa 2016
Content:
pael said:
Can you take them if you need to eat after noon? I can't fast due to health.

Malcolm wrote:
Better to take and break than not to take. Anyway, if it is a health issue, than there is no breakage. Evening meal is medicine.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2016 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
Astus said:
I see a general tendency to search for the truth, to argue about the truth, to consider the truth as the final goal and measure in Buddhism. But what if we change that yardstick to pain, suffering, dissatisfaction and the lack of it? One can consult scriptures and teachers to decide what is orthodox and canonical in terms of doctrine and method. However, if the standard is one's own pain or peace, what is there to compare?


Malcolm wrote:
Sorry Astus, but this is silliness. As the Buddha states in the Lalitavistara Sūtra:
I obtained the ambrosial Dharma—
profound, peaceful, free from dust, luminous, and unconditioned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2016 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Inside the Bathroom Movement
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
From a Buddhist point of view...

Losal Samten said:
Do you know if being trans, pandaka, or intersex makes any difference to the path in their present lifetime?

Malcolm wrote:
Apart from being ineligible for monastic ordination, I don't really seen any. Some Vajrayāna practitioners may argue that gender reassignment surgery creates a lot of disruption in the channels and cakras, but since most Vajrayāna people attain liberation in the bardo, I hardly see how gender reassignment surgery really matters at all in this respect.

Basically, no matter what our opinions about this issue may be, it is not our job to sit in judgement of what other people do with their bodies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2016 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Inside the Bathroom Movement
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
While I understand the language correction of 'transwoman' or the contrary to what Justsit thinks is proper;  I will stay will my choice.  I prefer trans guy to mean a male sex human who transitions to the other gender. Same notion for trans girl.

So I prefer the emphasis on the basis, Justsit prefers the effect.

Malcolm wrote:
From a Buddhist point of view, physical gender is unalterable (apart from the third week of pregnancy, where there are thing one can do to change the gender of a child). Whether you have a penis removed or attached, it has no bearing on your actual gender.

It is interesting to note that there was at one time a lot of pushback from women's festivals over the issue of transwomen. If anyone has seen the show Transparent on Amazon, there is treatment of this issue on that show, there is still some pushback, but in general, it seems that younger women are more accepting of transwomen than older women.

Still, there are key experiences, embodied experiences, that transwomen will never undergo such as developing breasts at puberty, menstruation, pregnancy, and so on. The same holds true for transmen.

Thus, while one may be able to change one's appearance, changing one's gender is impossible. Gender assignment is a function of karma, not surgery.

Despite this, I see no real reason to make such a big issue out of trans people using the bathroom of their choice.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2016 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Considering lung as empowerment?
Content:
pael said:
Do you get power to do mantra, if you do not repeat after teacher? I was unsure what was going on. I was too confused to repeat after him. Did I still get mantras? Do a rid gtad entail daily mantra repetion? I wasn't whole lecture there. I had to leave earlier. So, I don't know if there was any commitments.

Malcolm wrote:
You can still recite. There will be no daily commitment, per se.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2016 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Herbie said:
The only obstacle as deep seated belief is the view of a inherently existing self depending on the transitory aggregates.

Queequeg said:
An answer like that suggests you  are either enlightened or you're a parrot and have no idea what you're talking about. Just sayin.

boda said:
A rather rude response, especially for a global moderator. Are you guys (mods) all on the same page in forum culture cultivation? It appears not. Anyway, I'm sure someone could define, classify, catalog, and analyze a great number of obstacles and find the activity quite meaningful, but don't you agree that the primary obstacle is what Herbie suggests?

Malcolm wrote:
No, since one does not need to have aggregates in order to impute a self.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2016 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
While there are of course, inner and secret presentations of "where" Zangdog Palri is, the late master, Lodö Gyatsho (1930—2002) states:
In the past eon, when Hayagriva and Vajravārāhī liberated Rudra, among the eight substances blessed as the eight places which are sources of Secret Mantra, if it is asked which substance, the place where his sexual organ fell is a special place for the dependent origination of the unsurpassed secret. Further, the shape of the island resembles a scapula with the short edge facing north. It is maroon in color, as if it were copper in all directions. All of the mountains stand up like weapons. There are very deep ravines, and all the trees bear thorns. All the rivers are disturbed by waves, during the day the whole place has wind storms, and at night blazes with fire.
It then goes on the describe how it is surrounded by eight islands, each with one of the eight manifestations of Padmasambhava giving teachings, and so on.

FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_spiny_forests


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2016 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Considering lung as empowerment?
Content:
pael said:
I were in lecture of Geshe Dakpa Gyaltsen. In his lecture he told us to repeat mantra while visualizing deity above head  and his translator called it empowerment. There was not any ceremony or vase. Is it then empowerment? Or lung?

Malcolm wrote:
This is called a rig gtad, an entrustment of knowledge, it is a system from kriya tantra, and is not an empowerment. It is a way of bestowing a mantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 15th, 2016 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We need to not only identify the crime, and the criminal, we need to do something more. We need to discover what the criminal was trying to steal and why. We need a motive, in other words.

BuddhaFollower said:
Perceiving the Five Wisdom Lights as being "other" to oneself?

Malcolm wrote:
That's part of it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, this is not enough, you also need to recognize pristine consciousness, aka, ye shes.


BuddhaFollower said:
What method do you use for that?

T*g*l?

Malcolm wrote:
First you have to distinguish the mind from nature of the mind. For example, your statement, "Just recognize the conceptualizing mind" is just an APB, it is only interested in finding a criminal. So once you have the criminal in custody, then what do you do?

We need to not only identify the crime, and the criminal, we need to do something more. We need to discover what the criminal was trying to steal and why. We need a motive, in other words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Lhasa said:
Malcolm, would you please expand on exactly how to supplicate the guru?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, there are so many ways. But they all involve reciting heartfelt supplications such as Barche Lamsel, and so on, reciting one's guru's name mantra, the vajra guru mantra.

BTW, Dzogchungpa, were anyone was daft enough to recite it, my mantra would be Oṃ aḥ hūṃ guru vimuktenanda siddhi huṃ.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, this is not enough, you also need to recognize pristine consciousness, aka, ye shes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
These things in general come from Taoism. In the end, they are based on a view of the human body somewhat outside the view of the Human body as it is understood in the Tantras.

Johnny Dangerous said:
Buddhist and Taoist Qigong are different, but with years of interplay.  Believe it or not I know what the channels are and how they functions in Tantra in regards to liberation etc..at least in a general sense, so I get what you are saying. They are different though, abdominal breathing for instance is usually associated with Buddhist systems, and reverse abdominal breathing with Daoist. Neija is usually said to be Daoist, Waija Buddhist.

Malcolm wrote:
These are martial arts ideas, grounded in the system of Chinese Medicine.



Johnny Dangerous said:
There are other importamt differences as well that you would really have to study Secret Mantra in a serious way to properly understand.


I like to think that at least sometimes I study "in a serious way". I'm not saying the Chinese had the same concepts as in Tantra, but the fact that they had processes which involved gathering into the central channel and expelling from the crown makes me think it might not have been that far off, and that the more substantialist ideas about the subtle body you are talking about  got grafted on from Taosim, just speculation of course.. That said, I know there is also a theory that some of it (Chinese Buddhist Qigong) came from Tibet in the first place.


Malcolm wrote:
Again, this issue has to with how the path is understood in relation to the human body. It has nothing to with "energy," meridians, breathing, and so on.




Johnny Dangerous said:
I'm not saying that at all ,just saying - Chinese Buddhism definitely has something similar in terms of practices with the subtle body and anatomy, or did.. whether you want to point out specific differences or not.

Malcolm wrote:
Hinduism also has these things, but because Hindu notions of cakras and so on do not correspond to the path, we don't make use of them and they are not part of our tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It would be an error to state that awakening in Chan and Dzogchen and Mahamudra were different, for they are not. But the path of Chan, Mahamudra, and Dzogchen are very diffirent, and it is a grave error to conflate them.

Temicco said:
I think I really misunderstood what was going on earlier in this thread, then. What did you mean when you said that Vajrayana describes the mind-essence differently?

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on which system we are discussing, Mahāmudra or Dzogchen.

In general, in Chan we do not find any descriptions of the mind essence one would not also find in the sūtras, such attributes as luminosity, etc., are all tp be found in the sūtra division. Also, there is the notion that buddhahood is to be found in the mind.

Mahāmudra, and here we are referring to Mahāmudra as it is practiced mainly the Karma Kagyu school, is divided up into three kinds, sūtra, "tantric" and essence. The first of these is based on a gradual system of pointing out done in conjunction with sessions of practice. The second of these is based on the experience of empowerment combined with yogic practices which rapidly induce samadhi, and the third of these systems is based on a kind of blessing empowerment and does not have any practice other than guru devotion. Of these three, the first is most like Chan, in that while it is gradual, it is also includes the idea of sudden awakening. In all, the practice is based on understand that mind as inseparable clarity and emptiness as the basis for the three kāyas. Clarity and luminosity are not the same thing (though the term gsal ba, clarity, can be used as a gloss for 'od gsal, luminosity"), the former term refers to mind's open lit-up space in which appearances rise and subside — some people like to translate clarity as "cognizance." In sūtra and Chan "luminosity" refers to the mind's essential purity.

In Dzogchen on the other hand, mind is strictly a product of a process of delusion. While the mind-essence is also inseparable clarity and emptiness, mind itself is the result of ignorance about its own state. Thus mind is always with concepts and is always deluded, mind-essence is always nonconceptual and undeluded.

The reason why the awakening of all three systems is the same is that all realize the same emptiness. But there are distinct differences in path and praxis based on how the mind-essence is understood and how the human body plays a role in awakening (Note, I did not say that buddhahood offered by all three systems is the same, just the awakening (there is one level of Buddhahood in Chan, three in Mahāmudra and six in Dzogchen.) In Chan, apart from posture, there is basically no role for the human body in terms of awakening. This also true in Sūtra Mahāmudra, where the practice based on a gradual approach to śamatha and vipaśyāna, combined with oral instructions from the siddhas.

In Dzogchen, the practice is based on the human body from beginning to end, like other Vajrayāna systems. While there are many differences between Dzogchen and other Vajrayāna systems, one of the most salient is Dzogchen is not a path of renunciation, nor is it a path of transformation. It is a path of self-liberation. How that self-liberation is understood is a direct consequence of how it deals with the issue of mind essence.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...no practice based on the anatomy of the human body, etc.

Johnny Dangerous said:
I don't know if they are specifically things that are currently taught in Chan, but there are certainly Chinese Buddhist  practices working with the subtle body. In fact some of them on a  basic level are pretty similar to tsa lung/tummo, and have a goal of phowa, essentially.

Malcolm wrote:
These things in general come from Taoism. In the end, they are based on a view of the human body somewhat outside the view of the Human body as it is understood in the Tantras. There are other importamt differences as well that you would really have to study Secret Mantra in a serious way to properly understand.

It would be an error to state that awakening in Chan and Dzogchen and Mahamudra were different, for they are not. But the path of Chan, Mahamudra, and Dzogchen are very diffirent, and it is a grave error to conflate them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:


Temicco said:
It's not that I've decided that, it's that I've seen no compelling case to the contrary from anyone approaching Chan by its own terms. Chan does not consider itself Sutrayana, for instance. And did Tibet even know about and address Southern Chan teachings until recently?


Malcolm wrote:
Chan is Sūtra because it is not Vajrayāna, plain and simple. It has no method of empowerment, no method of direct introduction, no practice based on the anatomy of the human body, etc.

There are no methods in Chan not taught in sūtras. Chan is basically prajñāpāramitā in theory and approach, using the sudden approach taught in the Lankāvatara Sūtra. This is why I call Chan sūtra-based, not because there is some sūtra that Chan follows.

But its ok, you asked a question, I endeavored to answer it. It is pretty clear to me when I talk to Zen folks that their practice is very different than what we do. I also have a student who practiced for 35 years under Maizumi Roshi and his successors. She is pretty clear on how Zen, including koans, and Dzogchen, etc. are different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 5:08 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:


Temicco said:
The program may differ, but I see no evidence that the instruction is different in essence. Sure, in Vajrayana you are dependent upon the guru, but the nature of mind can be and is pointed out by a teacher in both traditions. The only thing with Chan is that it doesn't have to be.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there is a difference, Chan is focused primarily on emptiness, this is what is considered the "nature of the mind" in Chan.

In Vajrayāna, the mind-essence is not only emptiness.

Temicco said:
According to who is that the Chan account of the nature of mind?

In the classical Chan texts I've read, no clear distinction is made between the mind and its nature. The mind is described as dynamic, miraculously aware, luminous, unborn, and blissful, and all changing appearances perceived are no different from the mind. It's not as simple saying that its nature is empty, I don't think.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, well, you continue to believe what you like. You seem to have decided what is true and what is not. Since you have decided there is no difference between Chan, Dzogchen and Mahāmudra, there is no reason for you to pursue the latter two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 4:31 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:


Temicco said:
The program may differ, but I see no evidence that the instruction is different in essence. Sure, in Vajrayana you are dependent upon the guru, but the nature of mind can be and is pointed out by a teacher in both traditions. The only thing with Chan is that it doesn't have to be.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there is a difference, Chan is focused primarily on emptiness, this is what is considered the "nature of the mind" in Chan.

In Vajrayāna, the mind-essence is not only emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
Temicco said:
It's never called "direct introduction", but I think it would be a bit silly to think that what's going on in Tibetan ngo sprod is any different from what's going on in some of the gong-ans. The same words (well, in translation at least) are even used at times -- "just this". Does it really matter that Chan didn't reify this into a method?

Malcolm wrote:
Again, the difference is that in direct introduction you are introduced to the mind-essence immediately, it is not something you need to go out and discover on your own or search for.

In Chan, there is no discussion of direct introduction, or even hint of it, because Chan is a path which is not based on Secret Mantra. So the approach is completely different.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 2:39 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

Malcolm wrote:
That is good, but it is not enough.

BuddhaFollower said:
Why not?


Malcolm wrote:
Because that is not all there is to recognize.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:


Temicco said:
I figured you were talking about the nature of mind as an object of experience, which wouldn't exactly be the Chan stance.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, correct. In Chan there is no direct introduction to the nature of the mind as an object of experience. In Dzogchen and Mahāmudra, there is.

This has nothing to do with polemics, and everything to do with the difference between Sūtra and Secret Mantra.

Temicco said:
I suspect we might be talking about different kinds of experience. Huangbo talks extensively about how the Buddha and the Patriarchs pointed out the nature of mind. He also says that "if one recognizes one's own Mind and sees one's own Nature, there is nothing at all to seek outside oneself". The nature of mind can clearly also be talked about as something experienced. So it's not as simple as I formulated it.

Malcolm wrote:
Is it introduced in the beginning as an experience? Or is something one must discover on one's own?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:


Temicco said:
You're not being very clear. Chan is all about the nature of mind. In what way do you propose it differs from the latter two?

Malcolm wrote:
I was being very clear. In Chan there is no experiential introduction to the nature of the mind. In Mahāmudra and Dzogchen there is. That is the difference. There are other differences as well, but we do not need to discuss them.

Temicco said:
I figured you were talking about the nature of mind as an object of experience, which wouldn't exactly be the Chan stance.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, correct. In Chan there is no direct introduction to the nature of the mind as an object of experience. In Dzogchen and Mahāmudra, there is.

This has nothing to do with polemics, and everything to do with the difference between Sūtra and Secret Mantra.

Temicco said:
But it still talks of "seeing your nature and becoming a Buddha". There's definitely experiential introduction in that sense.

Malcolm wrote:
What is the experience you are being introduced to? I don't think the term "nature" here is being used in the same way. When we say "nature of the mind",  we are referring to the term sems nyid, or cittatā. It is better translated as "mind essence."

The term "nature" is rather vague.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
Temicco said:
Why then discuss it using positive formulations? It seems potentially misleading, no?

Astus said:
The concept of "nature" (xing 性) has a history in China pre-dating Buddhism. See a short section on nature http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/chinese-metaphysics/#ImpDif, or for instance the opposing views of http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mencius/#3 and http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/xunzi/#humans. Besides that, the concept also comes from India in the form of the tathagatagarbha teachings. So, it is fairly complicated why and how certain terms are used.
It just throws me for a loop when the nature of mind is so frequently discussed as if it's a thing that can be cognized, even if such a view is explicitly shot down. If it's not adding anything on, then why add it on?
One has to communicate somehow. Just consider how nirvana can be easily taken to be some kind of realm or state (e.g. nirvana as dhatu, or as dharma), when it literally means extinction.

Malcolm wrote:
Extinction is a state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:


Temicco said:
No.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you now understand the difference between Chan, and Mahāmudra and Dzogchen.

Temicco said:
You're not being very clear. Chan is all about the nature of mind. In what way do you propose it differs from the latter two?

Malcolm wrote:
I was being very clear. In Chan there is no experiential introduction to the nature of the mind. In Mahāmudra and Dzogchen there is. That is the difference. There are other differences as well, but we do not need to discuss them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
BuddhaFollower said:
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

Malcolm wrote:
That is good, but it is not enough.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
Temicco said:
The nature of mind is explicitly discussed in a wide range of texts, and is pointed out to students in several gong-ans.

Malcolm wrote:
As an experience?

Temicco said:
No.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you now understand the difference between Chan, and Mahāmudra and Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
Temicco said:
The nature of mind is explicitly discussed in a wide range of texts, and is pointed out to students in several gong-ans.

Malcolm wrote:
As an experience?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: Is the nature of mind a fiction?
Content:
Temicco said:
It just throws me for a loop when the nature of mind is so frequently discussed as if it's a thing that can be cognized, even if such a view is explicitly shot down. If it's not adding anything on, then why add it on?

Malcolm wrote:
The cittatā of citta, the so called "nature of the mind," is something that can be recognized. And once recognized, it can be cultivated. This why we have direct introduction in Mahāmudra and Dzogchen.

Astus is speaking from a Chan point of view. Direct introduction does not exist in Chan.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Might be Maldives too, or maybe the stories have conflated Madagascar and Maldives.

Maldives historically were recorded to have Vajrayana too while there is no evidence for any form of Buddhism on Madagascar AFAIK. Guru Padmasambhava clearly knew some kind of irrigation technology though.

Malcolm wrote:
There is the report of Buddhaguptanatha that there was a colony of Vajrayāna Buddhists living on Madagascar in the 16th century.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 14th, 2016 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:
Vasana said:
Doesn't that suppose a false dichotomy between whatever an ultimate truth is and the personal realization of how that truth applies to one's own practice and liberation or am I also missing the intention behind this thread ?

Astus said:
It is, as you say, a difference in focal point. If we get stuck on the question of how things really are, that is missing the point of why the teachings were given. They are not meant as statements about reality, but as instructions for liberation. Therefore, the goal is not clear insight but freedom from dissatisfaction.

Malcolm wrote:
That is painting with an extremely large brush.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Bliss
Content:
pael said:
Is it mental bliss or is it physical bliss? Does it mean bliss of meditative absorption? Can samsaric being benefit bliss of Buddhas before achieving Buddhahood or Bodhisattva bhumis? Does these apply also for purity, permanence and self of Buddhas?

Malcolm wrote:
It is ultimate bliss.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: is Buddhism a religious faith?
Content:
smcj said:
I believe that my perspective/approach is more in keeping with my tibetan teachers' approach than the general DW poster. Tibetans don't have prejudices against the subject of religion. In fact they are enthusiastic about their religion. We have issues about our failed religion, and we import our issues into our practice.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't have a failed religion.

smcj said:
When HHST says Vajrayana is polytheistic he says so with a full understanding of what the word means and a full understanding of what the Vajrayana is. What he doesn't understand is our reaction to any word that has "theo" as a root.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people might. I don't. Buddhism is polytheistic in general in its acceptance of Brahma, Indra, Vishnu, etc., as mundane gods.

smcj said:
They can't understand how rejecting our religion means we cherry pick around theirs to make it not a religion.

Malcolm wrote:
Whoever said Buddhadharma is not a religion? Of course it is a religion, it has many non-falsifiable tenets, such as rebirth, karma and so on. It lacks a creator god principle, but other than that it is still a religion.

smcj said:
That doesn't make me a crypto-Christian. It makes a traditionalist Vajrayana practitioner.

Malcolm wrote:
You are a crypto-Christian inso far as you keep complaining that you have issues w/ regard to your "failed" religion. Religions don't fail, by the way, unless faith in them utterly disappears. By that standard, Christianity is the strongest thing going.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
Losal Samten said:
Do you know if this has been translated?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it has, I forget the title, but will get it later

Guru Rinpoche
His Life and Times
by Ngawang Zangpo


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 7:37 PM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Based in the Indian account of his bio

Losal Samten said:
Do you know if this has been translated?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it has, I forget the title, but will get it later


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 7:22 PM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
Losal Samten said:
The rakshasas living there are said to be afflicted and that they dislike the king after he mysteriously had a personality change and stopped them from rakshasa'ing, so it doesn't seem like they're 8th bhumi+ (according to Karma Chagme, although his bias is self-stated).
The present Dodrupchen came from Zangdok Palri and said he saw Padmasambhava in rakshasa form and also saw Avalokiteshvara. Chogyur Lingpa's visit to Zangdok Palri stated that he saw mental emanations of Padmasambhava teaching on the islands to beings of various dispositions and saw different forms of GR on the different stories. Delog Dawa Drolma said she saw Avalokiteshvara in sambhogakaya form and Padmasambhava in his regular human form. GR is is said to have travelled to Camara to specifically tame the rakshasas, and unless he was only 'taming' 8th bhumi bodhisattvas, he would need to be in a form that they could see and relate to.

In short:

Malcolm wrote:
Dreams and visions are one thing, the question of whether Padmasambhava travelled the Indian colony on Madagascar in order to sorcerously control the natives is quite another. Based in the Indian account of his bio, I think it is safe to say the travelled to somewhere to deal with "rakṣasas," and I personally think that the most sensible place for him to have traveled is Madagascar, YMMV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Bliss
Content:
sangyey said:
Does the view change at all amongst the different school of Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps where Nyingma would say that bliss is inherent while Gelug might say bliss is not inherent but only a skillful means?

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on how a given school understands tathāgatagarbha, and the Uttaratantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: Bliss
Content:
sangyey said:
Is bliss an aspect of Buddha Nature?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as is purity, permanence and self.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Losal Samten said:
The views are getting worse, not better.


Malcolm wrote:
The cure for views (Buddhist, etc.) is the direct perception of dharmatā, and nothing else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am addressing the topic, "Obstacles and their elimination."

Queequeg said:
Well, that's the title of the thread, but not quite responsive to my lead post...


Malcolm wrote:
Drink the koolaid, and you will see...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
“When infinite obstacles also arise for those who are properly practicing the sublime Dharma, the sole method for removing them is to supplicate the guru. An instruction better than that has never been taught, is not taught and will never be taught by all the buddhas of the three times. Since all siddhis are obtained when all obstacles are removed, based that, all paths are also traversed. Therefore, supplicating the guru for the purpose of removing all outer, inner and secret obstacles is important.”

Queequeg said:
So... are you suggesting that I'm just wondering about who shot the arrow into my eye?

Malcolm wrote:
I am addressing the topic, "Obstacles and their elimination."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Obstacles and their elimination - The Degenerate Age
Content:
Queequeg said:
I was contemplating some obstacles I've identified in my practice - without going into detail, they are deep seated beliefs that restrain me from wholeheartedly exploring certain avenues. They manifest with a feeling of fear of doing wrong. In the course of considering my limitations, it got me thinking of similar obstacles faced by others - for instance, for many Westerners, a belief in God instilled from an early age presents obstacles to Buddhist understanding. Whatever the particular nature of these sorts of obstacles, they impress me as hindrances to the sort of relinquishment necessary to advance on the path.

The train of thought next got me thinking of the general decline in religious affiliation and the growth of atheism in the developed world. It reminded me of the parable of the doctor who proscribes and then later prescribes milk in the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra.

The parable in short: There is a royal doctor who indiscriminately prescribed milk as a cure for all ills. One day the king falls ill but the milk prescribed only makes him worse. Another doctor comes along, declares that milk is the wrong cure, cures the king with other medicine. The king rewards the new doctor by making him the royal doctor. The new royal doctor proscribes milk as a cure for any disease throughout the kingdom, and after a time, the entire kingdom comes to see milk more or less as a pathogen. The king falls ill again and after examining him, the new royal doctor prescribes milk as a cure. The king is apprehensive as the new royal doctor had taught for years that milk was a pathogen. The king takes the milk and is cured. The new royal doctor explains that the previous doctor did not understand illness or milk and indiscriminately prescribed milk which might have cure some illnesses, but also made people sick. The nature of illness and the nature of milk must be understood, and when it is understood, milk can be an appropriate cure.

I wonder if the decline in religious affiliation and growth in atheism is a sort of rejection of milk?

In both Tibetan and East Asian Buddhism there is an idea that in a time marked by overall decline in standards of ethics, morality, religion, etc. the real, most profound teachings of Buddhism will spread. I wonder if its the breakdown in the perpetuation of (false) views that permits people open to the most profound teaching to arise, free of the fetters that hold people of previous generations back?

Malcolm wrote:
“When infinite obstacles also arise for those who are properly practicing the sublime Dharma, the sole method for removing them is to supplicate the guru. An instruction better than that has never been taught, is not taught and will never be taught by all the buddhas of the three times. Since all siddhis are obtained when all obstacles are removed, based that, all paths are also traversed. Therefore, supplicating the guru for the purpose of removing all outer, inner and secret obstacles is important.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: is Buddhism a religious faith?
Content:
smcj said:
Let me ask everybody reading this some questions: Why is my position so unpopular?

Malcolm wrote:
Because you are a crypto-Christian and we are not.

conebeckham said:
Hmmm, not sure this is accurate.

Perhaps we could say a "crypto-monotheist?" Even that is not really representative of what smcj is saying, IMO.   Shentongpas are often called a number of things, but I never saw him advocate for Faith in Christ as the Son, etc.


Malcolm wrote:
He is always complaining about people rejecting his views because they reject Christianity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: is Buddhism a religious faith?
Content:
smcj said:
Let me ask everybody reading this some questions: Why is my position so unpopular?

Malcolm wrote:
Because you are a crypto-Christian and we are not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: No Truth, Only Pain
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 13th, 2016 at 12:42 AM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Possibly of interest: http://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2072&context=himalaya


Malcolm wrote:
Still voting for Madagascar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Sexual misconduct
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Jeff,

What you say is fine, but it does not address the age in which we live nor the reason for Vajrayāna teachings.

Vajrayāna is a path of nonrenunciation, i.e., it is a path of transformation. While it is certainly true that one should eschew irresponsible and harmful sexual behavior, it is not the case that sexuality is, a priori, a "significant deterrent" to "overcoming the pervasive suffering of samsara."

Since this is the upaya section, it should be observed that Vajrayāna is the path of means. As such, there are many means in Vajrayāna to transform the three or five afflictions into the path of awakening. One needs to be open to this possibility if one is studying Lamrim.

Jeff H said:
I think most of this thread has been the personal opinions of individual Buddhists, which is certainly valid, but lacks apparent grounding in the traditional teachings. Personal opinions that do not account for the traditional teachings can be misleading, in my opinion. As this is posted in the upaya forum, I think a more skillful method is to gain an authoritative overview of the actual teachings first and then freely decide how to conduct ourselves.

Buddhism does not say we “shouldn’t have sex”. We are free to do whatever we want. Buddhism addresses the consequences. If you want to stop experiencing certain results, or if you want to attain a certain goal, Buddhism teaches us to recognize the normally hidden causes. Buddhism teaches what to abandon and what to adopt IF you want to go in a certain direction.

In the context of overcoming the pervasive suffering of samsara, sexuality is not an innocent pleasure; it is a significant deterrent. The teachings on sexual misconduct are intended to help mitigate the harmful results of our natural sexual tendencies, without undue repression, until such time as we can freely and willingly overcome it.

It is like the verse in the Foundation of All Good Qualities prayer (from the FPMT prayer book): Seeking samsaric pleasures is the door to all suffering:
They are uncertain and cannot be relied upon.
Recognizing these shortcomings,
Please bless me to generate the strong wish for the bliss of liberation.
Or the translation I prefer: Samsara’s pleasures are deceptive, give no contentment only torment;
So please bless me to strive sincerely to gain the bliss of perfect freedom.
Sexual bliss is not at all related to the bliss referred to here, except, perhaps, as a grossly imperfect simile.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
Their impermanence becomes permanent if the mind continues to create afflictions because they 'like' them far more than virtue.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem, Nicholas, is that when samsara and nirvana turned their back on one another, Samantabhadra became a buddha without performing an iota of virtue, and sentient beings became sentient beings without perform a smidgeon of a misdeed.

Nicholas Weeks said:
While no 'misdeed' was done, there was no recognition and that started samsara.  So the non-recognition was the fault or flaw in those beings other than Samantabhadra.  At least that is how I am reading this commentary.  If in that early sublime condition beings could be blind, how pray tell, when we have become darker, stupider and more monstrous could we ever recognize through this darkest glass?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, well, through direct introduction of course, that after all is the point of Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
Stewart said:
There is a reecnt facebook post noting that Kathok Bairo Rinpoche recognised Uluru Mountain (Ayers rock) in Austrailia as Zangdok Palri.

Malcolm wrote:
Wrong direction...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
There two knds of rainbow body, greater and lesser. When the body disappears leaving only hair and nails, this lesser.

pael said:
Does this mean that Jesus attained rainbow body?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it does not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 11:23 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood? (from "Can Women ...")
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Malcolm: Well, at this point they are devas, vastly more intelligent than humans, and have seen the destruction of the world.
Still seems pretty hinky to me.  Whether to visit or reside in a realm, higher or lower, causes and conditions are needed.  So why does every being rise realm by realm?  What causes propel them?  They are learning their lesson finally and acting virtuously enough to rise?  I would think many would be scared at the death of entire realms and fall back on their favorite of the 3 poisons, which means downward.

Malcolm wrote:
It is all clearly explained by the Koshabhasyam in chapter three. The specific detals of karma, the causes and effects of virtuous and nonvirtuous acts, is explained in chapter four. Reading these two chapters and understanding them will adress all your qualms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Malcolm: And yes, if we are indolent and like to suffering for a really long time, sure, we do not have to do anything much, and eventually we will be born in the upper form realm, hear teachings, attain liberation, and that will be that. Or we can save ourselves the trouble, hear teachings now, put them into practice and at worst achieve buddhahood in the bardo.
OK so all beings in the six realms s l o w l y rise to the form realms.

But these beings in the lower 3 in particular, have no interest in or are more likely still hostile to buddhadharma, so why would they pay attention and practice in the form realm, if they have never had any inclination or disposition to do so before?

Does Ati Yoga accept as accurate this kalpa ending scheme?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, at this point they are devas, vastly more intelligent than humans, and have seen the destruction of the world. Even hell beings can experience compassion for others, for example, when Śakyamuni Buddha was a hell being during the dispensation of the ancient Gautama Buddha.

Yes, Atiyoga basically observes the cosmology presented in the Kośa when it comes to how the karmically created universe is created and destroyed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 6:43 AM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
yes..thats the one I was thinking of as well..its certainly the highest mountain in Madagascar...

Malcolm wrote:
IN general, Tibetans were not very good at understanding the outside world following the 13th century. For example, it was only in the late 19th century that they realized they had completely misidentified the Buddhist region of Magadha. For a few hundred years Tibetans had popularly located it in Assam.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 6:36 AM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
good one...  so Im guessing all of the info you have read does not go into anymore detail then?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, but this looks promising, Maromokotro:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 6:30 AM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
awesome! thanks for the info..  however as Madagascar is a good sized island with about a dozen mountains any idea which one it might be?


Malcolm wrote:
The copper colored one?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 6:28 AM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I think if you relinquish your attachment to your karmic vision, you will easily find Padmasambhava there, just as you will easily find Vimalamitra at Wu Tai Shan, along with many Chinese tourists.

And for that matter, you may also find Avalokiteśvara in South India, at Mt. Potala.

Losal Samten said:
The point is that he's meant to be a nirmanakaya in that form and so doesn't require pure vision, no? The pure vision variant is when he's surrounded by vidyadharas and the 25 disciples, not monsters.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't really know where you got this idea from. The mere fact that he has many faces and hands means that it is Sambhogakāya dimension we are talking about here. I have never seen a nirmanakāya with three faces, six arms, four legs and wings, have you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 6:26 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood? (from "Can Women ...")
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
If your reading is correct, then Dharma practice now is silly and not needed, all we need to do is wait long enough and we will naturally be swept up into the high heavens. (no need for Jesus, true enough)

Sherab Dorje said:
Just in case you didn't know:  the high heavens are part of samsara too (ie conditioned and impermanent).  Buddhists do not aim (theoretically) for rebirth in the God realms.

Malcolm wrote:
The five pure abodes are indeed part of samsara, but only āryas inhabit them, so called arhats and never returners.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood? (from "Can Women ...")
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Malcolm: At this point, all sentient beings exist in the two upper form realms. Why?
Indeed why?

If hell beings (or any other group) have exhausted their hellish karma - great - but why do they leap up the those high form realms?  Seems like they might return to the realm they created the hellish karma in, but to join the sages in those high form realms... does not compute.

If your reading is correct, then Dharma practice now is silly and not needed, all we need to do is wait long enough and we will naturally be swept up into the high heavens. (no need for Jesus, true enough)

Malcolm wrote:
No one said they leaped: the last hell being out of hell take rebirth in the preta realm; the last preta takes rebirth in the animal realm, and so on. This all takes an extraordinary amount of time from our limited 100 year (if we are lucky) perspective.

The reason why the upper form realms do not perish, as near as I can make out, it because they are the location of the pure abodes such as the Akaniṣṭha (not the same as Akaniṣṭha Ganavyuha) , āryas inhabit them. Relevant pages in the Kośabhasyaṃ vol.2, 475-477.

And yes, if we are indolent and like to suffering for a really long time, sure, we do not have to do anything much, and eventually we will be born in the upper form realm, hear teachings, attain liberation, and that will be that. Or we can save ourselves the trouble, hear teachings now, put them into practice and at worst achieve buddhahood in the bardo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I refer you the Vimalakirtinirdesha sūtra, and the teaching there on Śakyamuni's impure buddhafield, Sahaloka.

Losal Samten said:
What about Padmasambhava appearing as the rakshasa king? According to you, rakshasas are just Madagascan headhunters which were recorded by the Indians as being monsters. Therefore, if ordinary beings can see the headhunters/rakshasas, then we should also find Padmasambhava there, in his monstrous and freakish nirmanakaya form with no problem, as we have the requisite karmic vision, just like the Indians of old, yes?

Malcolm wrote:
I think if you relinquish your attachment to your karmic vision, you will easily find Padmasambhava there, just as you will easily find Vimalamitra at Wu Tai Shan, along with many Chinese tourists.

And for that matter, you may also find Avalokiteśvara in South India, at Mt. Potala.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
dzoki said:
Camara is described as being filled with ponds, meadows, parks etc. not a desert filled with herds of goats

Malcolm wrote:
A lot can change in 1200 years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
tomamundsen said:
Not really sure, but Zandokpalri is located on Ngayab Ling, or Cāmaradvipa (Tail Fan/Whisk Land/Continent/Island) in Sanskrit.

Malcolm wrote:
For which I nominate Madagascar!

Fa Dao said:
Are you being serious? and if so why Madagascar?

Malcolm wrote:
Mainly 1) because the native language of Madagascar is the only language in the world related to the language of the Borneo headhunters and 2) Buddhaguptanatha, Taranatha's Indian teacher, reported that he received Padmasambhava's transmissions of Hevajra and so on on that Island in the 16th century, back when it was named San Lorenzo in Portuguese. 3) Meru cosmology is an Indo-centric view of the world, and it does in fact refer to real places on our planet, such as Uttarakuru, which is also the same region as the one called "Kuru" by Ptolemy, inhabited by horse riding nomads, etc.

We can understand from the account of the taming of Rudra, the Ramayāna and so on, that Indian shipping lanes were troubled by seagoing pirates related to the headhunters of Borneo, and in the case of Śrī Lanka, there was an out and out war between Indo-Aryans and the headhunting tribes living there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:50 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Their impermanence becomes permanent if the mind continues to create afflictions because they 'like' them far more than virtue.

Sherab Dorje said:
The impermanent cannot become permanent, the conditioned cannot become unconditioned.

Anything that arises based on causes is conditioned and thus impermanent.

Afflicted views arise based on ignorance.  Thus they are conditioned.  Thus they cannot be permanent.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Should have put 'permanent' in quotes.  If samsara is beginningless, as is ignorance, then as long as ignorance conditions, afflictions will dominate.

Malcolm wrote:
A unique feature of Dzogchen teachings is that it explains the beginning of ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
Do not follow this.  In order to survive the end of the kalpa does not one need to be in already or rise at the last moment into the 'two upper form realms'?  If so, then only virtuous folk would be there.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you might need a bit of review on chapter three of the Abhidharmakośabhasyaṃ.



Nicholas Weeks said:
Therefore we monsters (in the lower realms) with no gotra of buddha family would be wiped out and unable to attain buddhahood.  What would happen to those beings in the next kalpa when those six realms reappear, is not clear.  Is their karmic slate pristine or do they begin at the bottom again, being bad or badder?

Malcolm wrote:
The way it works is like this, according to Abhidharma:

After the last sentient being leaves the hell realm, the hells disappear.
After the last sentient being leaves the preta realm, the preta realm disappears.
After the last sentient being leaves the animal realm, the animal realm disappears.
After the last sentient being leaves the human realm, the human realm disappears.
After the last sentient being leaves the lower deva realms, the deva realms disappear (including the asuras), with the exception of the two upper form realm heavens.

At this point, all sentient beings exist in the two upper form realms. Why?


After the last sentient being leaves the hell realm, the hells disappear because all karma to generate the hell realms has been purified in all sentient beings who are to be born there.
After the last sentient being leaves the preta realm, the preta realm disappear because...
After the last sentient being leaves the animal realm, the animal realm disappear because...
After the last sentient being leaves the human realm, the human realm disappear because...
After the last sentient being leaves the lower deva realms, the deva realms disappear, with the exception of the two upper form realm heavens, because all karma to generate the the lower deva realms has been purified in all sentient beings who are to be born there.

So every thing up to the Brahmalokas disappear because there are no more sentient beings with karma to be born there, since that karma has been exhausted, apart from subtle traces.

Those traces are however important, because according to the Abhidharma scheme, these traces are what causes the six lokas to gradually reappear, from the Brahmaloka on down to the hells, one realm at a time, from top to bottom as sentient beings gradually gather again the karma to be born in those realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Copper Colored mountain location?
Content:
tomamundsen said:
Not really sure, but Zandokpalri is located on Ngayab Ling, or Cāmaradvipa (Tail Fan/Whisk Land/Continent/Island) in Sanskrit.

Malcolm wrote:
For which I nominate Madagascar!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: is Buddhism a religious faith?
Content:
smcj said:
That is a very popular idea here in the West.

tiagolps said:
I would argue that vajrayana and Ancient Greek religion are very different things, despite in your opinion being both "polytheistic".

smcj said:
Making offerings, supplicating and praying to multiple deities doesn't strike you as polytheistic?  You've got to do a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid the obvious.
And dzogchen eternalistic? no.
How about monistic, er, um, I mean "nondual"? Evidently Kongtrul saw it that way.

Malcolm wrote:
No, Dzogchen is also not monistic. How can a diversity be monistic?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:
Tenso said:
It's impossible. There's no finite number of beings.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not impossible [for all sentient beings to attain buddhahood], whether it is a finite set, or a infinite set.

Tenso said:
They can but won't. Majority population aren't Buddhist and never will be on this globe. Maybe you are taking Dzogchen texts way too literally?

Malcolm wrote:
I think the time frame indicated here is a little broader...and when all sentient beings do attain buddhahood, this globe will no longer exist, since it will have been destroyed in the cataclysms at the end of the eon, mentioned above.

In any case, I do not take Dzogchen teachings any more nor any less literally than you appear to take Pureland teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:19 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Sounds like Adibuddha Samantabhadra does what Jesus is supposed to do,
Sounds like you missed the lesson on the impermanent nature of the afflictive states.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Their impermanence becomes permanent if the mind continues to create afflictions because they 'like' them far more than virtue.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem, Nicholas, is that when samsara and nirvana turned their back on one another, Samantabhadra became a buddha without performing an iota of virtue, and sentient beings became sentient beings without perform a smidgeon of a misdeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
maybay said:
The method behind Abhidharma, similarly, is not concerned with postulating theories based on statistical probabilities and verifying these through conducting experiments, resulting in "facts". There are no facts in Abhidharma. The Abhidharma takes the words of the Buddha as law / Dharma, and then through experience and inference, and through a process of much even handed debate, arrives at the most convincing extension of this understanding. If the Buddha never explicitly proclaimed the geometry of the earth, you can be sure it was not of any significance.

Malcolm wrote:
Abhidharma does not accept every word the Buddha said as literally true. For example, the debate with the Pudgalavadin's who introduce various statements of the Buddha which they take literally in order to prove there is an inexpressible pudgala which transmigrates. Vasubandhu shows them [hopefully] that their understanding is mistaken by explaining the real sense of the passages the former interpret literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:03 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:
Tenso said:
It's impossible. There's no finite number of beings.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not impossible [for all sentient beings to attain buddhahood], whether it is a finite set, or a infinite set.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 5:00 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:
maybay said:
This should not be understood as an ontological postulate. Atiyoga rhetoric is entirely solipsistic. When the doctrine is detached from it's context it appears as nothing more than wishful thinking.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, it is meant to be taken literally.

maybay said:
No solipsism would be complete without a literal interpretation.

Malcolm wrote:
It is up to you to prove atiyoga is solipsistic. I know you can't prove it, but it will be ever so entertaining to observe your flailing attempts.

maybay said:
Space is my witness.

Malcolm wrote:
You definitely need space in order to flail around.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, Vimalamitra is supposed to reside at Wu Tai Shan, in China, and Padmasambhava at the Copper Colored Mt. in the southwestern continent of Camara, which seems to be Madagascar.

RikudouSennin said:
It is known.

dzoki said:
I have some doubts as to Camara being Madagascar. One of my university professors spent some time there (I studied geology) and said that people there basically deforested half of the island and turned everything into a semi desert, they ate all of the animals (except for goats), so that after two months in the field doing research the research team met only one lizard and one grashopper - that was it, they destroyed all of the infrastructure that French left there - such as schools, public buildings, bridges, railroads etc.
Southern half of the island is better of, it has some of the original forests, but overall the whole country is in very poor state. One would expect that influence of Padmasambhava´s pure realm would influence the people to be more virtuous and take better care of their environment and lives.

I think Camara is in other dimension, just like Dremojong, Jambu River etc.

Malcolm wrote:
I refer you the Vimalakirtinirdesha sūtra, and the teaching there on Śakyamuni's impure buddhafield, Sahaloka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
Practically speaking then, there are those who will 'never' make use of their buddha nature.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this may be taught in sūtras, good thing this is an idea rejected completely in Atiyoga where it is held that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood.

Nicholas Weeks said:
How nice for we monsters. But how can we 'attain' when our disposition is hostile to buddhahood?  If the buddhas (or a buddha) can transform or inspire demonic folk, then all glory to Them, but where is the 'attainment'?

Sounds like Adibuddha Samantabhadra does what Jesus is supposed to do,

Malcolm wrote:
No, it does not work like that at all.

You seem to have forgotten that each of the six realms vanishes when it is emptied of sentient beings, beginning with the hell realms. This is common also to Abhidharma. However, the two upper form realms never disappear, even though everything below them is destroyed by cataclysms of fire, air and water at the end of the eon. The main difference between this cosmological idea in Abhidharma and Dzogchen is that in the latter, it is held by Garab Dorje that all sentient beings attain buddhahood through the practice of Atiyoga. So here, the idea that there is no one devoid of the gotra, family of buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
Practically speaking then, there are those who will 'never' make use of their buddha nature.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this may be taught in sūtras, good thing this is an idea rejected completely in Atiyoga where it is held that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood.

maybay said:
This should not be understood as an ontological postulate. Atiyoga rhetoric is entirely solipsistic. When the doctrine is detached from it's context it appears as nothing more than wishful thinking.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, it is meant to be taken literally.

It is up to you to prove atiyoga is solipsistic. I know you can't prove it, but it will be ever so entertaining to observe your flailing attempts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: No potential for Buddhahood
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
Practically speaking then, there are those who will 'never' make use of their buddha nature.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this may be taught in sūtras, good thing this is an idea rejected completely in Atiyoga where it is held that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Malcolm,

Thurman accepts the traditional view, a pretty good scholar.  Also why would Vasubandhu comment on his brother's works if he thought Maitreya the Regent was not the guru of Asanga?  Also Thurman uses Maitreya-natha for the Regent, because 'nath' means something like Lord, which can be applied to the mahasattva.

This is also OT, so fare thee well, our contentious one.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Nicholas,

It is not off topic, because you invoked the authority of this account in your defense of this position.

I don't accept this traditional Tibetan account because it is contradicted by Chinese sources, and because it does not appear until centuries after Asanga.

Now, is it possible that Asanga received these five texts in a vision. Perhaps, however, I don't believe this is so, because of the stylistic consistency of the five treatises, the great difference between them and Asanga's mode of writing, and because of a complete absence of confirmation about this from the Madhyamaka school. It is therefore my belief that Maitreyanātha was an Indian scholar who summarized the three main trends of Mahāyāna sūtras in five texts who lived before Asanga and after Nāgārjuna, and that is about as much as we actually know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 12th, 2016 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
dzoki said:
What about others who are said to be around, such a Shawaripa, Tilopa and Maitripa, is their attainment a rainbow body in a dzogchen sense, or is it something else? To be more precise - their attainment is called deathless vajra body - can this be equated to rainbow body or is it of a different nature?

Malcolm wrote:
More or less the same. And don't forget Babaji!


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: is Buddhism a religious faith?
Content:
smcj said:
I think Mahamudra and Dzogchen are theo-monistic (eternalistic).

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
According to tradition, Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra are still around.

.

florin said:
In what sense are they still around ?
The deities and the  guardians are still around and will be long after i die.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Vimalamitra is supposed to reside at Wu Tai Shan, in China, and Padmasambhava at the Copper Colored Mt. in the southwestern continent of Camara, which seems to be Madagascar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:


Nicholas Weeks said:
The tradition of Maitreya the Regent is supported by Mipham, Vasubandhu and many others - it is strong enough to satisfy me.

Malcolm wrote:
In fact, there is no place where Vasubandhu makes this identification.

This is a later tradition, post-Vasubandhu, making its first appearance in the works of Xuantsang, and in fact the Chinese tradition itself is all over the map. By the eight century however, the tradition is solidified in India (nearly five centuries after the dates generally assumed for the composition of the five treatises, i.e. late 3rd, early 4th century), and thus the Tibetan sources are univocal on this point.

The fact that Mipham reports a tradition that is demonstrably late and has no foundation in the core texts we are discussing themselves is of no weight whatsoever.

The fact is that no Madhyamaka authors until the Haribhadra make this identification, especially in light of Vimuktisena making no mention of it, and the fact that Vasubandhu's main student, Sthiramati, makes no mention of it either. The latter merely refers to Maitreya as "Ārya Maitreya," and while he indicates that the author of the Madhyantavibhanga is impeded by only a single birth, he offers no details on the transmission of the text to Asanga apart from noting that it was bestowed upon Asanga through the blessings of Maitreya.

As we move through the texts in time, we can see the story becoming more elaborated and fleshed out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 6:38 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Ārya-vimaladattaparipṛcchā-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra depicts a conversation between the eighth stage female bodhisattva Ārya Vimaladatta and Maudgalyāna. He asked her why she has not changed her gender. She replies, "Why haven't you changed yours since you are the master of miraculous power," and than says:
Venerable Mahā Maudgalyāna, the body of a woman cannot attain the awakening of manifest perfect buddhahood. The body of a man cannot attain the awakening of manifest perfect buddhahood. Why? Because awakening does not arise, therefore, the body and mind are incapable of manifest perfect buddhahood

Losal Samten said:
That's the View, not Path.

Malcolm wrote:
No, my friend, you are incorrect. The very fact that she engages with Maudgalyāna in why she has not changed her gender indicates this is all three: view, path and result.

This entire sūtra is very interesting, in so far as Vimaladatta takes on all the Buddha's major arhat disciples and defeats them in debate over the question of gender, one by one.

Then of course there is the Nirvana Sūtra which says very clearly, "Here in Jamudvipa I exhibit buddhahood in the body of a woman."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 6:22 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Losal Samten said:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=337330#p337330

Malcolm wrote:
That does not explain that women cannot become buddhas.

Losal Samten said:
How can a mahasattva attain buddhahood as a female if they are never again born as a woman?

Malcolm wrote:
The Ārya-vimaladattaparipṛcchā-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra depicts a conversation between the eighth stage female bodhisattva Ārya Vimaladatta and Maudgalyāna. He asked her why she has not changed her gender. She replies, "Why haven't you changed yours since you are the master of miraculous power," and than says:
Venerable Mahā Maudgalyāna, the body of a woman cannot attain the awakening of manifest perfect buddhahood. The body of a man cannot attain the awakening of manifest perfect buddhahood. Why? Because awakening does not arise, therefore, the body and mind are incapable of manifest perfect buddhahood


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 6:03 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Where in Prajñāpāramita sūtras does it explain a woman cannot become a Buddha?

Losal Samten said:
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=337330#p337330

Malcolm wrote:
That does not explain that women cannot become buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 5:52 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Losal Samten said:
In that case the Prajnaparamita in 8000 lines is provisional

Malcolm wrote:
??? Explain.

Where in Prajñāpāramita sūtras does it explain a woman cannot become a Buddha?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 5:25 PM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:


ClearblueSky said:
I'm slightly confused by this. If ordinary people see you the same, and yet you are not becoming a body that dies, why isn't everybody that achieved rainbow body still just walking around for people to see? Most of the accounts of rainbow body I've read the people "disappeared", maybe leaving behind hair and nails.
If you ordinary people see you as you were, does this include your hair and nails? What about clothes, do those dissolve with you and you stay in that outfit, or do ordinary people see you walking around the same but naked?

Malcolm wrote:
There two knds of rainbow body, greater and lesser. When the body disappears leaving only hair and nails, this lesser.

ClearblueSky said:
Okay, then with the Greater:
1. If even ordinary people see you "just as you were", why aren't some that achieved rainbow body still just walking around for ordinary people to see?
2. Do you somehow dissolve your clothes with you and stay in that outfit, or do ordinary people see you walking around the same, but naked?

Malcolm wrote:
According to tradition, Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra are still around.

I am pretty sure jyou need to change your clothes as they wear out, even if you have attained great transference body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 5:20 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Losal Samten said:
"Irreverisble" refers to the 8th bhumi which requires two incalculable kalpas to reach. Being that the words from a sutra trump that of a sastra, Asanga is incorrect in this case if the translations are correct.

And as pointed out, at any rate beings do not realise buddhahood in a female body in sutrayana, and saying that they do is both extra-textual and contra-textual.

Malcolm wrote:
Maintaining that woman are incapable of attaining buddhahood in a female bidy is a samaya violation for any Vajrayana practitioner, just as holding that there are icchantikas.

Losal Samten said:
Good thing I'm not doing that then, eh? Of course the Basis/Path/Fruit of the tantras overrides the Basis/Path/Fruit of the sutras.

However I do not think that misrepresenting/whitewashing the sutras does anyone any benefit.

Malcolm wrote:
Some sutras are provisional, others are not. In general, yogacara sutras are provisional and interpretable because they contain doctrines such as icchantikas and so on. The idea that huddhahood is gender based is also provisional and not definitive, no whitevwashing required.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 4:33 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
There is more to buddhadharma than 'views' and refutations or supports thereof, Malcolm.

If there is not a thread already on those with no potential or just lacking it, we ought to have one.  A very interesting subject.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there are also provisional teachings and definitive ones; follow the latter, not former. This why no one follows yogacara anymore. They observe too many provisional teachings.

maybay said:
You needn't chose one in place of the other. But do chose patience and resolve over petulance and obduracy. If for no other reason than better health.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you must choose, actually. The sutras themselves indicate this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 10:20 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there are also provisional teachings and definitive ones; follow the latter, not former. This why no one follows yogacara anymore. They observe too many provisional teachings.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Odd, is it not, that our future Buddha Maitreya taught what he did and now 'no one follows' it anymore - or so Malcolm says.

Malcolm wrote:
Maitreyanatha was an Indian scholar, not the  future buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 9:58 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
There is more to buddhadharma than 'views' and refutations or supports thereof, Malcolm.

If there is not a thread already on those with no potential or just lacking it, we ought to have one.  A very interesting subject.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there are also provisional teachings and definitive ones; follow the latter, not former. This why no one follows yogacara anymore. They observe too many provisional teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 9:36 AM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
Tenso said:
how are these two the same and different from one another?

thanks


Malcolm wrote:
It does not mean that you suddenly burst into rainbow light, if you attain this in this life, ordinary people will still see you just as you were, but perhaps you will not cast a shadow.

ClearblueSky said:
I'm slightly confused by this. If ordinary people see you the same, and yet you are not becoming a body that dies, why isn't everybody that achieved rainbow body still just walking around for people to see? Most of the accounts of rainbow body I've read the people "disappeared", maybe leaving behind hair and nails.
If you ordinary people see you as you were, does this include your hair and nails? What about clothes, do those dissolve with you and you stay in that outfit, or do ordinary people see you walking around the same but naked?

Malcolm wrote:
There two knds of rainbow body, greater and lesser. When the body disappears leaving only hair and nails, this lesser.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 9:27 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Losal Samten said:
"Irreverisble" refers to the 8th bhumi which requires two incalculable kalpas to reach. Being that the words from a sutra trump that of a sastra, Asanga is incorrect in this case if the translations are correct.

And as pointed out, at any rate beings do not realise buddhahood in a female body in sutrayana, and saying that they do is both extra-textual and contra-textual.

Malcolm wrote:
Maintaining that woman are incapable of attaining buddhahood in a female bidy is a samaya violation for any Vajrayana practitioner, just as holding that there are icchantikas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 9:23 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So you understand that this point of view is utterly rejected by Madhyamaka?

Why would anyone wish to follow the tenets of a lower school when there is a higher one available? As for Mipham, this is not hus personal position.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Malcolm: Are you now going to adopt the yogacara position that there are also so called icchantikas, sentient beings absolutely incapable of buddhahood?
Always have, since Maitreya bodhisattva says so in his Ornament IV:11 and Ju Mipham accepts that:
“Lack of potential” can mean either that the cause of liberation is temporarily lacking or that liberation remains permanently impossible.”

Excerpt From: Maitreya. “Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras.” iBooks.
The group where 'liberation remains permanently impossible' is quite small, one hopes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 8:52 AM
Title: No potential for Buddhahood? (from "Can Women ...")
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Are you now going to adopt the yogacara position that there are also so called icchantikas, sentient beings absolutely incapable of bUddhahood?


Nicholas Weeks said:
Arya Asanga, a Third Ground bodhisattva, says in his Bodhisattvabhumi that women cannot reach annutarasamyaksambodhi.  Because they have too many mental afflictions and inferior wisdom.

During the first of the three big kalpas bodhisattvas use female bodies if they wish, but after that time period (a mere 10 to the 59th power years) the use only male bodies.  So women can become great bodhisattvas, but not full Buddhas.

See Engle's new translation The Bodhisattva Path to Unsurpassed Enlightenment, pp 169-70.

Astus said:
The Astasahasrika says otherwise, attributing the freedom from female birth to much higher level bodhisattvas.

"Endowed with these attributes, tokens and signs a Bodhisattva should be borne in mind as irreversible from full enlightenment. Furthermore, an irreversible Bodhisattva does not pander to Shramanas and Brahmins of other schools, telling them that they know what is worth knowing, that they see what is worth seeing. He pays no homage to strange Gods, offers them no flowers, incenses, etc., does not put his trusts in them. He is no more reborn in the places of woe, nor does he ever again become a woman."
(PP 8000 17.1, tr Conze)

Nicholas Weeks said:
No PDF yet, so I have been too lazy (until now) to quote the full passage:
All buddhas are the same in every respect and free of differences, except for these four things:  life span, name, caste, and physical size.  The distinction among buddhas is due to a variation in these four qualities and not to anything else whatsoever.

A woman cannot attain unsurpassed true and complete enlightenment.  Why is that?

Once a bodhisattva has passed beyond the first [period of a] countless number of kalpas he abandons the state of being a woman, and [from then on] until he sits at the seat of enlightenment, he will never again become a woman.
The entirerty of womankind naturally possesses a great many mental afflictions and is subject to inferior wisdom, and it is not possible for [a person with] a mind stream that naturally possesses a great many mental afflictions and is subject to inferior wisdom to attain unsurpassed true and complete enlightenment.
The first short graph giving the only four distinctions among buddhas does not list sex.

As to what exactly Astus means by 'much higher level bodhisattvas', I do not know.  In any case both this sutra and Asanga agree that at some point the woman state is not used.  That does not mean that female buddhas or bodhisattvas do not appear.  At the 8th Ground the power to appear as any sort of being, even buddhas, is gained.

The main reason for bringing up this subject again is that I tired of seeing all the sociology supposedly ruling the buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 11th, 2016 at 7:44 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Losal Samten said:
"Irreverisble" refers to the 8th bhumi which requires two incalculable kalpas to reach. Being that the words from a sutra trump that of a sastra, Asanga is incorrect in this case if the translations are correct.

And as pointed out, at any rate beings do not realise buddhahood in a female body in sutrayana, and saying that they do is both extra-textual and contra-textual.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is a miastake. If this is the case, then it would be possible to identify a tathagata through marks, a possibility excluded by the Vajrachedika among other sutras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2016 at 8:54 PM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
Harimoo said:
To be shadowless is quite common in many different religions/traditions (like the shadowless Prophet).

In Dzogchen, is there people who are shadowless but are still considered to be in a basic level of accomplishment ?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2016 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
maybay said:
They are mostly aiming for enlightened society not personal Buddhahood. .

Malcolm wrote:
???


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2016 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are no thoughts to create a partition if there is no mind.

gad rgyangs said:
and if, as you believe, sentient beings are delusions, then how reliable are the partitions created by their minds? wouldn't all such partitions also be delusions?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure. But we start at delusion and work backwards.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2016 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point, Astus, is that each of these dhyānas is in fact a concept on which we focus, where as you treat them as if they are grades of consciousness, which they are not.

Astus said:
Do you mean that dhyanas are not stages of mental tranquillity, but a number of conceptual focuses people may be absorbed in according to their inclination?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. For example, one of Buddha's teacher taught him that meditating on 'infinite emptiness" was the highest stage of liberation, the other, that "neither perception nor nonperception' is the highest state. But these are just mental concepts upon which he focused, and he discovered that by focusing them they created paths for rebirth.

This is also why it is said that śamatha without vipaśyāna merely creates a cause for birth as a lower form realm deity, because it is conceptual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2016 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
maybay said:
. If they were so perfect the likes of Chogyam Trungpa would not have taught an alternative.

Malcolm wrote:
I think he just suffered from a lack of imagination. He was too conditioned by being a Tibetan aristocrat. This is why he liked commonwealth countries more than the US, in the end. Canada after all still has the Queen on the dollar. Democracy made Trungpa nervous, even though he enjoyed it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2016 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
thought creates partitions of manifestation into "me" "you" "the table" etc. these may or may not be useful, but since they are changeable, they cannot be fundamental. only the fact of manifestation is fundamental. That is why it is less clear to claim that the basis is a quality of "mind" as if mind were a self-existent entity: "mind" is a partition created by thought, just like "table".


Malcolm wrote:
There are no thoughts to create a partition if there is no mind.

And, since, as you say, when you discover your own state, you also discover the state of the "universe" (i.e. gcig shes kun grol), this reduces the so called "basis" to a set of generic qualities. This does not render a mind "self-existent."

For example, Āryadeva says that when you discover the emptiness of one thing, you discover the emptiness of all things. But this does not mean there is an emptiness "out there" which pervades everything, anymore than there is a basis "out there" which is the foundation for manifestation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2016 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Your model is some strange version that does not account for this fact.

Astus said:
How doesn't it account for it? I simply defined the basic focus of each stage. And of course one can get stuck at any stage. Moving to the next level depends on relinquishing the previous one. At the same time, it is also possible to let go of everything and attain liberation at any given stage.

Malcolm wrote:
The point, Astus, is that each of these dhyānas is in fact a concept on which we focus, where as you treat them as if they are grades of consciousness, which they are not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2016 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:


gad rgyangs said:
so then why do you say that each sentient being is an irreducible basis?

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't.

"Basis" is just a term used to describe something one has not realized. There is no basis apart from that, which I have said repeatedly.

gad rgyangs said:
but you are saying there is nothing but self-existent, irreducible consciousnesses, which are delusions (thats already a contradiction), each of which have "their own basis", presumably which will allow them at some point in the future to become buddhas. so what will exist then, a bunch of self-existent buddhas? and will each of those buddhas have a basis or not?


Malcolm wrote:
I did not say anything of the kind anywhere. I never made such a claim and neither do Dzogchen texts.

You seem to think there is some kind of basis, which you imagine to be transcendent (aka free from extremes), out of which there arises an appearance (how and to whom?); despite the obvious contradiction in such a position if your putative basis is just blank emptiness free from extremes (i.e. something which does not exist at all, conventionally or otherwise).

When the Dzogchen texts are talking about "the basis" in terms of essence, nature and compassion, they are talking about qualities of the nature of the mind, not some transcendent pleroma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 10th, 2016 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Because sentient beings are delusions that self-appear from the dhātu of luminosity. That's the point.

gad rgyangs said:
so then why do you say that each sentient being is an irreducible basis?

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't.

"Basis" is just a term used to describe something one has not realized. There is no basis apart from that, which I have said repeatedly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:


Astus said:
The model I have provided is mostly my take on the sutta teachings. As noted above, there is no Mahayana version of the eight stages model. As for Zen, dhyana goes together with wisdom, and they together refer to the essence (emptiness) and function (discernment) of the nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with your model is that each of the dhyānas represents a conceptual focus. That is why we can take rebirth in the corresponding realms when we focus on them. So for example, if we make intense meditation on "everything is emptiness" as a conceptual focus, this means we will take rebirth in that realm.

Buddha cruised through them, one at a time, and saw how the four noble truths related to each abode, and eradicated that potential for rebirth.

Your model is some strange version that does not account for this fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
your sig makes a bit more sense except for a couple of things: first, calling sentient beings "delusions" implies that there is a really-existent sentient being that is having the delusion (a delusion requires an agent that is deluded). That is incoherent, and also a needless proliferation: why not just say that sentient beings are clear appearances of a basis that is neither being nor nothing?

Malcolm wrote:
Because sentient beings are delusions that self-appear from the dhātu of luminosity. That's the point.


gad rgyangs said:
And calling sentient beings "self appearing" implies that sentient beings are not dependent arisings, but are dripping with svabhava (which contradicts calling them "delusions". "production from itself" anyone?). The way to correct this is to say that they are appearing from the dhatu of luminosity, but that the dhatu of luminosity is a quality (really better expressed as the activity of lhun grub rather than what sounds like a substantive noun) pointing to ( not "a quality of") the basis which is beyond all categories and qualities.

Malcolm wrote:
Take it up with Mipham.

The rest of your qualms are form the point of view of relative truth. So who cares?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:


gad rgyangs said:
so now you're saying a self-originated imputation imputes itself?

Malcolm wrote:
Why not? That is essentially how the process of delusion is explained.

gad rgyangs said:
why not? because its completely incoherent and of no use whatsoever in either trying to understand the nature of reality nor in reducing suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
According to you suffering is just a reification, so not a problem.

And why do you need a "coherent" explanation, isn't that just another reification?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:


gad rgyangs said:
so now you're saying a self-originated imputation imputes itself?

smcj said:
You should check out the signature at the bottom of Malcolm's posts.

gad rgyangs said:
yes but he is currently claiming the opposite: that the "dhatu of luminosity" is nothing but a "quality" of an irreducible and self-existing consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
You are claiming that on my behalf, I made no such claim.

But the dhātu of luminosity, according to Mipham, is just the clarity and emptiness of one's mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:


gad rgyangs said:
"consciousness" is a designation, an imputation. How can an imputation be self-originated?

Malcolm wrote:
The real question is how can it not be? For an imputation to be made, there has to be something which imputes. Imputations do not exist apart from minds which impute.

gad rgyangs said:
so now you're saying a self-originated imputation imputes itself?

Malcolm wrote:
Why not? That is essentially how the process of delusion is explained.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is just monastic mysogyny, nothing more, nothing less.

Losal Samten said:
Is women not being able to become pratyekabuddhas also down to monastic bigotry, even though they can achieve arhatship?

Malcolm wrote:
Most definitely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
To repeat (wish folks would read more closely):

"Arya Asanga, a Third Ground bodhisattva, says in his Bodhisattvabhumi that women cannot reach annutarasamyaksambodhi. Because they have too many mental afflictions and inferior wisdom."

So wisdom has many degrees and that of a full Buddha cannot be reached in a female body - not because of genitalia, anymore than a Buddha is one because of his genitalia.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just monastic mysogyny, nothing more, nothing less. Also I will remind you that third stage bodhisattvas also have only partially removed the afflictive obscuration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The question is wrong. If you ask me what the term "basis" means in Dzogchen teachings, I can answer.

Otherwise, consciousness, whether pristine or not, has no basis. As far as anyone can actually tell, one's consciousness is self-originated and self-organized, without any other creator.

gad rgyangs said:
"consciousness" is a designation, an imputation. How can an imputation be self-originated?

Malcolm wrote:
The real question is how can it not be? For an imputation to be made, there has to be something which imputes. Imputations do not exist apart from minds which impute.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 6:57 PM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
smcj said:
One of the Vajrayana precepts is to not disparage women as being inferior.

maybay said:
Most Vajrayana precepts speak to Mahayana doctrine. This does not mean to reject Mahayana doctrine. In fact all this fuss brings up other precepts:

3. Condemn and/or create problems with one's Vajra brothers and sisters
6. Slander the scriptures of Mahayana and Vajrayana
12.  Fail to transmit authentic Dharma

Malcolm wrote:
14. Claim that women are incapable of buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 11:07 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So, production is not real and nonproduction is real, correct?

Astus said:
They form a single reality together.
in order for there to be an eye consciousness, there has to be an external object, a form, of which that consciousness is aware

catmoon said:
Malcolm does this mean you are a Dzogchen Platonist? What would be the difference between the form you speak of and a Platonic ideal?

Malcolm wrote:
Not that kind form.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 11:04 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:


gad rgyangs said:
there you go again, claiming that consciousness is the basis of the basis? of itself? what do you claim then is the basis of consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
The term "basis" itself just refers to something we have not realized. What have we not realized? The nature of our own minds.

gad rgyangs said:
you did not answer the question: what are you claiming is the basis of consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
The question is wrong. If you ask me what the term "basis" means in Dzogchen teachings, I can answer.

Otherwise, consciousness, whether pristine or not, has no basis. As far as anyone can actually tell, one's consciousness is self-originated and self-organized, without any other creator.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:


gad rgyangs said:
there you go again, claiming that consciousness is the basis of the basis? of itself? what do you claim then is the basis of consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
The term "basis" itself just refers to something we have not realized. What have we not realized? The nature of our own minds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Losal Samten said:
Couldn't Asanga's assertions be valid for the sutra path, with women still being capable in mantrayana? There would be no conflict, no?


Malcolm wrote:
Take it up with the Goddess of the Ganges, I suspect she has a thing or two to say about this:

Thereupon, a certain goddess who lived in that house, having heard this teaching of the Dharma of the great heroic bodhisattvas, and being delighted, pleased, and overjoyed, manifested herself in a material body and showered the great spiritual heroes, the bodhisattvas, and the great disciples with heavenly flowers. When the flowers fell on the bodies of the bodhisattvas, they fell off on the floor, but when they fell on the bodies of the great disciples, they stuck to them and did not fall. The great disciples shook the flowers and even tried to use their magical powers, but still the flowers would not shake off. Then, the goddess said to the venerable Sariputra, "Reverend Sariputra, why do you shake these flowers?"

Sariputra replied, "Goddess, these flowers are not proper for religious persons and so we are trying to shake them off."

The goddess said, "Do not say that, reverend Sariputra. Why? These flowers are proper indeed! Why? Such flowers have neither constructual thought nor discrimination. But the elder Sariputra has both constructual thought and discrimination.

"Reverend Sariputra, impropriety for one who has renounced the world for the discipline of the rightly taught Dharma consists of constructual thought and discrimination, yet the elders are full of such thoughts. One who is without such thoughts is always proper.

"Reverend Sariputra, see how these flowers do not stick to the bodies of these great spiritual heroes, the bodhisattvas! This is because they have eliminated constructual thoughts and discriminations.

"For example, evil spirits have power over fearful men but cannot disturb the fearless. Likewise, those intimidated by fear of the world are in the power of forms, sounds, smells, tastes, and textures, which do not disturb those who are free from fear of the passions inherent in the constructive world. Thus, these flowers stick to the bodies of those who have not eliminated their instincts for the passions and do not stick to the bodies of those who have eliminated their instincts. Therefore, the flowers do not stick to the bodies of these bodhisattvas, who have abandoned all instincts."

Then the venerable Sariputra said to the goddess, "Goddess, how long have you been in this house?"

The goddess replied, "I have been here as long as the elder has been in liberation."

Sariputra said, "Then, have you been in this house for quite some time?"

The goddess said, "Has the elder been in liberation for quite some time?"

At that, the elder Sariputra fell silent.

The goddess continued, "Elder, you are 'foremost of the wise!' Why do you not speak? Now, when it is your turn, you do not answer the question."

Sariputra: Since liberation is inexpressible, goddess, I do not know what to say.

Goddess: All the syllables pronounced by the elder have the nature of liberation. Why? Liberation is neither internal nor external, nor can it be apprehended apart from them. Likewise, syllables are neither internal nor external, nor can they be apprehended anywhere else. Therefore, reverend Sariputra, do not point to liberation by abandoning speech! Why? The holy liberation is the equality of all things!

Sariputra: Goddess, is not liberation the freedom from desire, hatred, and folly?

Goddess: "Liberation is freedom from desire, hatred, and folly" that is the teaching of the excessively proud. But those free of pride are taught that the very nature of desire, hatred, and folly is itself liberation.

Sariputra: Excellent! Excellent, goddess! Pray, what have you attained, what have you realized, that you have such eloquence?

Goddess: I have attained nothing, reverend Sariputra. I have no realization. Therefore I have such eloquence. Whoever thinks, "I have attained! I have realized!" is overly proud in the discipline of the well-taught Dharma.

Sariputra: Goddess, do you belong to the disciple-vehicle, to the solitary-vehicle, or to the great vehicle?

Goddess: I belong to the disciple-vehicle when I teach it to those who need it. I belong to the solitary-vehicle when I teach the twelve links of dependent origination to those who need them. And, since I never abandon the great compassion, I belong to the great vehicle, as all need that teaching to attain ultimate liberation.

Nevertheless, reverend Sariputra, just as one cannot smell the castor plant in a magnolia wood, but only the magnolia flowers, so, reverend Sariputra, living in this house, which is redolent with the perfume of the virtues of the Buddha-qualities, one does not smell the perfume of the disciples and the solitary sages. Reverend Sariputra, the Sakras, the Brahmas, the Lokapalas, the devas, nagas, yaksas, gandharvas, asuras, garudas, kimnaras, and mahoragas who live in this house hear the Dharma from the mouth of this holy man and, enticed by the perfume of the virtues of the Buddha-qualities, proceed to conceive the spirit of enlightenment.

Reverend Sariputra, I have been in this house for twelve years, and I have heard no discourses concerning the disciples and solitary sages but have heard only those concerning the great love, the great compassion, and the inconceivable qualities of the Buddha.

Reverend Sariputra, eight strange and wonderful things manifest themselves constantly in this house. What are these eight?

A light of golden hue shines here constantly, so bright that it is hard to distinguish day and night; and neither the moon nor the sun shines here distinctly. That is the first wonder of this house.

Furthermore, reverend Sariputra, whoever enters this house is no longer troubled by his passions from the moment he is within. That is the second strange and wonderful thing.

Furthermore, reverend Sariputra, this house is never forsaken by Sakra, Brahma, the Lokapalas, and the bodhisattvas from all the other buddha-fields. That is the third strange and wonderful thing.

Furthermore, reverend Sariputra, this house is never empty of the sounds of the Dharma, the discourse on the six transcendences, and the discourses of the irreversible wheel of the Dharma. That is the fourth strange and wonderful thing.

Furthermore, reverend Sariputra, in this house one always hears the rhythms, songs, and music of gods and men, and from this music constantly resounds the sound of the infinite Dharma of the Buddha. That is the fifth strange and wonderful thing.

Furthermore, reverend Sariputra, in this house there are always four inexhaustible treasures, replete with all kinds of jewels, which never decrease, although all the poor and wretched may partake to their satisfaction. That is the sixth strange and wonderful thing.

Furthermore, reverend Sariputra, at the wish of this good man, to this house come the innumerable Tathagatas of the ten directions, such as the Tathagatas Sakyamuni, Amitabha, Aksobhya, Ratnasri, Ratnarcis, Ratnacandra, Ratnavyuha, Dusprasaha, Sarvarthasiddha, Ratnabahula, Simhakirti, Simhasvara, and so forth; and when they come they teach the door of Dharma called the "Secrets of the Tathagatas" and then depart. That is the seventh strange and wonderful thing.

Furthermore, reverend Sariputra, all the splendors of the abodes of the gods and all the splendors of the fields of the Buddhas shine forth in this house. That is the eighth strange and wonderful thing.

Reverend Sariputra, these eight strange and wonderful things are seen in this house. Who then, seeing such inconceivable things, would believe the teaching of the disciples?

Sariputra: Goddess, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?

Goddess: Although I have sought my "female state" for these twelve years, I have not yet found it. Reverend Sariputra, if a magician were to incarnate a woman by magic, would you ask her, "What prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?"

Sariputra: No! Such a woman would not really exist, so what would there be to transform?

Goddess: Just so, reverend Sariputra, all things do not really exist. Now, would you think, "What prevents one whose nature is that of a magical incarnation from transforming herself out of her female state?"

Thereupon, the goddess employed her magical power to cause the elder Sariputra to appear in her form and to cause herself to appear in his form. Then the goddess, transformed into Sariputra, said to Sariputra, transformed into a goddess, "Reverend Sariputra, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?"

And Sariputra, transformed into the goddess, replied, "I no longer appear in the form of a male! My body has changed into the body of a woman! I do not know what to transform!"

The goddess continued, "If the elder could again change out of the female state, then all women could also change out of their female states. All women appear in the form of women in just the same way

as the elder appears in the form of a woman. While they are not women in reality, they appear in the form of women. With this in mind, the Buddha said, 'In all things, there is neither male nor female.'"

Then, the goddess released her magical power and each returned to his ordinary form. She then said to him, "Reverend Sariputra, what have you done with your female form?"

Sariputra: I neither made it nor did I change it.

Goddess: Just so, all things are neither made nor changed, and that they are not made and not changed, that is the teaching of the Buddha.

Sariputra: Goddess, where will you be born when you transmigrate after death?

Goddess: I will be born where all the magical incarnations of the Tathagata are born.

Sariputra: But the emanated incarnations of the Tathagata do not transmigrate nor are they born.

Goddess: All things and living beings are just the same; they do not transmigrate nor are they born!

Sariputra: Goddess, how soon will you attain the perfect enlightenment of Buddhahood?

Goddess: At such time as you, elder, become endowed once more with the qualities of an ordinary individual, then will I attain the perfect enlightenment of Buddhahood.

Sariputra: Goddess, it is impossible that I should become endowed once more with the qualities of an ordinary individual.

Goddess: Just so, reverend Sariputra, it is impossible that I should attain the perfect enlightenment of Buddhahood! Why? Because perfect enlightenment stands upon the impossible. Because it is impossible, no one attains the perfect enlightenment of Buddhahood.

Sariputra: But the Tathagata has declared: "The Tathagatas, who are as numerous as the sands of the Ganges, have attained perfect Buddhahood, are attaining perfect Buddhahood, and will go on attaining perfect Buddhahood."

Goddess: Reverend Sariputra, the expression, "the Buddhas of the past, present and future," is a conventional expression made up of a certain number of syllables. The Buddhas are neither past, nor present, nor future. Their enlightenment transcends the three times! But tell me, elder, have you attained sainthood?

Sariputra: It is attained, because there is no attainment.

Goddess: Just so, there is perfect enlightenment because there is no attainment of perfect enlightenment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am not basing it on the evidence of just one set of sense organs. I am basing this on the two things, the fact that we all recognize the distinction between erroneous and nonerroneous  cognitions of appearance, these things being mere matters of fact and not disputable, and the example I used, the anatomy of rods and cones in the eye.

gad rgyangs said:
we recognize shared expectations of common experiences, but this does not address whether we see things as they are or not. If there is nothing but those shared expectations and common experiences, then why claim they are not what they seem to be?

Malcolm wrote:
If things are as they seem to be, there would be no basis of error for anyone at anytime, anywhere.

gad rgyangs said:
Ok, this is the third extreme; something which neither exists nor does not exist. This does not even get past the gate of Madhyamaka.
I didn't say "it neither exists nor does not exist" I said it is beyond such categories. big difference.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you cannot talk about it at all in anyway. You cannot even say what it is. You cannot even say there is a basis.

gad rgyangs said:
Plato and Psuedo-Dionysus have no role in this discussion. Whatever they were talking about, it was not Dzogchen nor the basis.
the Dzogchen basis is a metaphor pointing to the nature of reality, and so are the metaphors of Plato and Pseudo-Dionysius.

Malcolm wrote:
As far as I am concerned, Plato is an eternalist, as are all his followers. I have no interest in Plato.




gad rgyangs said:
This is only a problem for those who think the basis is something more than a generic set of qualities.
qualities of what? your consciousness? then you are claiming that your consciousness is the basis of the basis, which makes no sense.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

We do not say the basis only has an conscious aspect, it also has an emptiness aspect. That is one of the qualities of the basis.

By pointing that the basis is a generic set of qualities, Dzogchen is stating that the basis is one's own consciousness, out of which one's afflictive reality is constructed by ignorance (ma rig pa), and deconstructed by knowledge (rig pa).

If you claim, as you are doing, that the basis is some kind of ineffable ground of being, this is contradicts not only the teaching of Dzogchen, but the teaching of the Buddha in toto. (and yes, peanut gallery, I am aware that there are some translators of Dzogchen texts who have taken the ill-advised route of importing terms from Christian theology into their translations, endlessly confusing students who read such texts and leading them far away from the teachings of Dzogchen in the process).

That is fine with me, but do not describe your theories as "Dzogchen," since they have nothing to do with Dzogchen at all, and have more in common with Christian Theology and so on


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Our Dalai Lama made the 3rd Ground "claim that it is so" - in his Foreword.

Malcolm wrote:
It is still just a claim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Arya Asanga, a Third Ground bodhisattva, says in his Bodhisattvabhumi that women cannot reach annutarasamyaksambodhi.  Because they have too many mental afflictions and inferior wisdom.

During the first of the three big kalpas bodhisattvas use female bodies if they wish, but after that time period (a mere 10 to the 59th power years) the use only male bodies.  So women can become great bodhisattvas, but not full Buddhas.

See Engle's new translation The Bodhisattva Path to Unsurpassed Enlightenment, pp 169-70.

Malcolm wrote:
If there was ever proof that Ārya bodhisattvas possess knowledge obscurations, this is it.

Nicholas Weeks said:
Darn - maybe if he was an 5th or an 8th Grounder?  But Malcolm knows better.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, in order to be free of knowledge obscurations, he would have to be a buddha, actually. Anyway, we do not really know that Asanga was a bodhisattva on the stages, apart from someone's claim that it is so.

I think may a visit to Vimalakirti's house might be in order for Asanga. I think Yeshe Tsogyal and Mandarava might have a thing or two to say about women's wisdom being "inferior."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Can women become Buddhas?
Content:
Nicholas Weeks said:
Arya Asanga, a Third Ground bodhisattva, says in his Bodhisattvabhumi that women cannot reach annutarasamyaksambodhi.  Because they have too many mental afflictions and inferior wisdom.

During the first of the three big kalpas bodhisattvas use female bodies if they wish, but after that time period (a mere 10 to the 59th power years) the use only male bodies.  So women can become great bodhisattvas, but not full Buddhas.

See Engle's new translation The Bodhisattva Path to Unsurpassed Enlightenment, pp 169-70.

Malcolm wrote:
If there was ever proof that Ārya bodhisattvas possess knowledge obscurations, this is it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
you're not understanding his point: you cannot prove the subjectivity of our perceptions based on a description of sense organs, since you only know about sense organs by using your sense organs. If their representations are not "seeing things as they are" (your words) then they cannot be the basis for a reliable description of the sense process which you then attempt to use to prove that appearances are not "seeing things as they are".

Malcolm wrote:
Sure you can. I just did. If you wish to dispute the anatomy of hearing, seeing, and so on. Please go ahead. But your argument also injures your own point, you have no basis for refuting any claim that "we are not seeing things as they are."

gad rgyangs said:
you cannot base a claim that "we are not seeing things as they are" on the evidence of sense organs since they themselves are perceptions which you claim are not seen as they are. Its really not complicated.


Malcolm wrote:
I am not basing it on the evidence of just one set of sense organs. I am basing this on the two things, the fact that we all recognize the distinction between erroneous and nonerroneous  cognitions of appearance, these things being mere matters of fact and not disputable, and the example I used, the anatomy of rods and cones in the eye.



gad rgyangs said:
Ok, so now you are subscribing to the extreme, "the basis isn't anything at all," also rejected by the Dzogchen tantras. For you the basis must be inert, insentient. Something like a void.
no, it is simply beyond the categories of existing or not existing. This is not complicated either, and has been well understood even in the west since Plato and Pseudo-Dionysius.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, this is the third extreme; something which neither exists nor does not exist. This does not even get past the gate of Madhyamaka.

Plato and Psuedo-Dionysus have no role in this discussion. Whatever they were talking about, it was not Dzogchen nor the basis.





gad rgyangs said:
a basis that has a conscious aspect that is responsible for manifestation (through which all things were made): how is this different from the hypostases of Plotinus or even the christian trinity?

Malcolm wrote:
This is only a problem for those who think the basis is something more than a generic set of qualities. In any case, while you may wish to dispute what Dzogchen teachings actually say, I wish merely to understand what they actually say and practice them accordingly (and yes, what I report is what Dzogchen tantras and commentaries actually say).

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:


tomamundsen said:
Which is related to bdag nyid gcig pu'i ma rig pa, yes? Which Dzogchen texts discuss this?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is related to the imputing ignorance ( kun rtags ma rig pa ).

monktastic said:
Interesting. From the section that florin (thanks!) suggested I read:
The natural creative power (rtsal) of awareness has actually created a veil whereby awareness is obscured— on ac­count of which, one speaks of an “ignorance that has the same nature (as awareness)” (bdag nyid gcig pa'i ma rig pa).

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is because consciousness/knowing (shes pa/rig pa) is not aware of its appearances at this point in the game, since they have not manifested yet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is basic anatomy, something of which Nietzsche was ignorant.

gad rgyangs said:
you're not understanding his point: you cannot prove the subjectivity of our perceptions based on a description of sense organs, since you only know about sense organs by using your sense organs. If their representations are not "seeing things as they are" (your words) then they cannot be the basis for a reliable description of the sense process which you then attempt to use to prove that appearances are not "seeing things as they are".

Malcolm wrote:
Sure you can. I just did. If you wish to dispute the anatomy of hearing, seeing, and so on. Please go ahead. But your argument also injures your own point, you have no basis for refuting any claim that "we are not seeing things as they are."



gad rgyangs said:
I see, well, you seem the subscribe to the "basis can be anything all" extreme.
how can it "be" anything at all when it is not an existent thing?

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, so now you are subscribing to the extreme, "the basis isn't anything at all," also rejected by the Dzogchen tantras. For you the basis must be inert, insentient. Something like a void.

gad rgyangs said:
The consciousness aspect of the basis, which does not recognize its appearances as its own state. (do we really have to do this again?)
are you saying the basis has consciousness or the basis is consciousness? If the basis has consciousness, you have reified it. If you say it simply is consciousness, then you are a cittamatrin.

Malcolm wrote:
You decide. The texts state pretty clearly that the basis has a conscious aspect (and in other places that it is an unfabricated consciousness), which we normally term both lhun grub and thugs rje, depending which level we are discussing. Both are considered the basis for delusion. Ka dag, on the other hand, since it never partakes in appearance, can never be a basis for delusion.

The reason that it is said that the basis has a conscious (shes pa) aspect is to provide an explanation of how there is rig pa and ma rig pa, and how ma rig pa then generates dualistic consciousness (rnam shes), and so on.

If you wish to consider the primary teaching of Dzogchen to be reifying the basis, that is ok with me. Whatever Dzogchen you are then following is not the Dzogchen of the sgra thal gyur and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 9th, 2016 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
For example, there are no colors in external objects. Colors are something imputed by our minds from images generated by the rods and cones in our eyes which select wave lengths of something we call "light," a kind of radiation which fall on objects. We see colors, but there are no colors.

gad rgyangs said:
thats a whole lot of suppositions. Even Nietzsche knew better:

Malcolm wrote:
It is basic anatomy, something of which Nietzsche was ignorant.



gad rgyangs said:
What is the basis? Is it inert? Is it sentient? Is it one thing? Is it many things?
none of the above.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, well, you seem the subscribe to the "basis can be anything all" extreme.

gad rgyangs said:
The basis does not manifest a you or a me. For example, if you think the basis is original purity, you are already deluded.
so what does manifest you and me? if you say "delusion" or "ignorance" than, what manifests delusion? You cant say us, that would be circular reasoning.

Malcolm wrote:
The consciousness aspect of the basis, which does not recognize its appearances as its own state. (do we really have to do this again?)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When it is said that appearances are illusions and delusions, this means that we are are not seeing things as they are.

gad rgyangs said:
how do you know you are not seeing things as they are?

Malcolm wrote:
For example, there are no colors in external objects. Colors are something imputed by our minds from images generated by the rods and cones in our eyes which select wave lengths of something we call "light," a kind of radiation which fall on objects. We see colors, but there are no colors.

gad rgyangs said:
Of course they are "just manifestations," but manifestations of what?
the basis. gzhi snang.

Malcolm wrote:
What is the basis? Is it inert? Is it sentient? Is it one thing? Is it many things?

gad rgyangs said:
Who is deluded and why? What is wrong with pejorative terms? Do we need to create a Dzogchen safe space where no pejorative terms are used in case someone might think their "manifestations" are negative and suffer from a poor self-image as a result?
you are deluded if you believe you are deluded. Since "you" are also a manifestation of the basis, what purpose does it serve to call it "deluded"?

Malcolm wrote:
The basis does not manifest a you or a me. For example, if you think the basis is original purity, you are already deluded.

gad rgyangs said:
pejorative terms are evidence of attachment and aversion, picking and choosing, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Then Dzogchen tantras must be full of attachment and aversion.

gad rgyangs said:
there is nowhere that is not a Dzogchen safe space.

Malcolm wrote:
Apparently, where ever there is attachment and aversion is not a safe space in your Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
i know the tradition tries very hard to define conventional reality correctly perceived as opposed to mistaken sense cognition, but I dont think its so clear cut about any kind of so called reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Rongzom agrees and so do I. Delusion is delusion. There is no point is creating degrees of more deluded and less deluded, just as no one is half-pregnant.

gad rgyangs said:
the only difference between saying "everything is an illusion/delusion" and "everything that manifests, manifests" is a value judgment in the case of "illusion" "delusion" since those are basically pejorative terms. If we just say that waking reality, dreams, and illusions are just manifestations, then we do not have to commit to such an indulgence in attachment and aversion.

Malcolm wrote:
Redirect:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=22223#p337047


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
i know the tradition tries very hard to define conventional reality correctly perceived as opposed to mistaken sense cognition, but I dont think its so clear cut about any kind of so called reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Rongzom agrees and so do I. Delusion is delusion. There is no point is creating degrees of more deluded and less deluded, just as no one is half-pregnant.

gad rgyangs said:
the only difference between saying "everything is an illusion/delusion" and "everything that manifests, manifests" is a value judgment in the case of "illusion" "delusion" since those are basically pejorative terms. If we just say that waking reality, dreams, and illusions are just manifestations, then we do not have to commit to such an indulgence in attachment and aversion.

Malcolm wrote:
When it is said that appearances are illusions and delusions, this means that we are are not seeing things as they are. Of course they are "just manifestations," but manifestations of what? Who is deluded and why? What is wrong with pejorative terms? Do we need to create a Dzogchen safe space where no pejorative terms are used in case someone might think their "manifestations" are negative and suffer from a poor self-image as a result?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
i know the tradition tries very hard to define conventional reality correctly perceived as opposed to mistaken sense cognition, but I dont think its so clear cut about any kind of so called reality.

Malcolm wrote:
Rongzom agrees and so do I. Delusion is delusion. There is no point is creating degrees of more deluded and less deluded, just as no one is half-pregnant.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: How appearances arise
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, it is described in the topic of how sentient beings become deluded.

tomamundsen said:
Which is related to bdag nyid gcig pu'i ma rig pa, yes? Which Dzogchen texts discuss this?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is related to the imputing ignorance ( kun rtags ma rig pa ). The Ignorance of the same identity simply means that one's consciousness is unaware of itself. The connate ignorance arises the moment there is movement in that consciousness, which manifest as "colors." If that movement is recognizes as one's own state, then one becomes Samantabhadra. If not, then one moves into the third ignorance, the connate ignorance.

Zhang Zhung snyan rgyud and some Buddhist schemes, such as the dgongs pa zang thal, do not mention the ignorance of the same identity.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
gad rgyangs said:
an illusory elephant in a dream can haul wood and bear a rider.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, an illusory elephant in a dream can haul dream wood and bear a dream rider, can also converse fluently in 13 languages aside from Elephantise, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As far as the illusion itself goes, we can say that it depends on causes and conditions, but these also cannot withstand analysis and will be found to be unproduced as well. So in the end, everything winds up being illusion, and therefore, unproduced.

Astus said:
The elephant is illusory, just as causality. Illusory means apparent, functional, and at the same time insubstantial, empty.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean the illusory elephant can haul wood? Bear a rider?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 6:38 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When it is understood that the illusion of an elephant is not an elephant, there is no concept of elephant to eliminate. One knows an elephant never existed where one seemed previously to appear. That elephant is self-liberated.

Astus said:
There is still an illusion, isn't there? Or do you mean by self-liberation a total nothingness?

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that the elephant in the illusion was never produced.

As far as the illusion itself goes, we can say that it depends on causes and conditions, but these also cannot withstand analysis and will be found to be unproduced as well. So in the end, everything winds up being illusion, and therefore, unproduced.


Astus said:
But your contention is that we do not experience objects.
That doesn't sound like what I said.
But according to you, there must be a cause of that consciousness.
I think this got mixed up because of terminology. I only used the word consciousness to compare it to the 18 dhatu scheme, to show that experiences precedes subject and object. On the other hand, I debate an independent consciousness, because that is an absolutist version of subject, while even the subject itself is an abstraction from experience.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

The eighteen dhātu scheme demonstrates nothing of the sort. It shows, or intends to show, that consciousnesses are a product of the meeting of a sense organ and a sense object. It it elaborated to show that experience is derived from subject and object, not that it precedes it.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So you subscribe to the third extreme then — that there can be something both existent and nonexistent. Because in reality, production and nonproduction are mutually exclusive.

Astus said:
No. Production is a concept to navigate within experiences. Non-production is a concept to eliminate attachment. The point is to be active and free at the same time. Do you consider that a contradiction?

Malcolm wrote:
I consider production and nonproduction to be mutually exclusive. There is one or the other. There cannot be both. For example, in the illusion of elephant an elephant is never produced. Such an elephant never arises. The illusory elephant can never become an elephant. It never was an elephant. The illusion of an elephant is strictly a non-elephant now.

When it is understood that the illusion of an elephant is not an elephant, there is no concept of elephant to eliminate. One knows an elephant never existed where one seemed previously to appear. That elephant is self-liberated. If you use nonproduction as a concept to eliminate attachments, you will never be free from attachments. Why? Because you are still stuck in concepts and dualism.



Astus said:
So if I poke my finger in your eye, you will not experience my finger as an object, distinct from your eye?
Both finger and eye exist as experiences. To that basis comes all the qualifications.

Malcolm wrote:
But your contention is that we do not experience objects.



Astus said:
If there are no objects, how can there consciousness of "something?"
Consciousness means there an instance of experience, a phenomenon. That is, an instance of seeing a vase is first a "vase-phenomenon" that is divided into a vase as object and a viewer as subject.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

But according to you, there must be a cause of that consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 3:46 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So, production is not real and nonproduction is real, correct?

Astus said:
They form a single reality together.

Malcolm wrote:
So you subscribe to the third extreme then — that there can be something both existent and nonexistent. Because in reality, production and nonproduction are mutually exclusive.



Astus said:
in order for there to be an eye consciousness, there has to be an external object, a form, of which that consciousness is aware
Not exactly. What I say is that when there is consciousness, it is consciousness of something. Even more precisely, there are only experiences, and they can be theoretically separated into subject and object, but that's an added distinction, and not something experienced.

Malcolm wrote:
So if I poke my finger in your eye, you will not experience my finger as an object, distinct from your eye?


Astus said:
To put that into the dhatu version, there are instances of consciousness, and it can be then imagined to be objects and senses.

Malcolm wrote:
If there are no objects, how can there consciousness of "something?"

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 2:49 AM
Title: Re: Our Pristine Mind - Orgyen Chowang's new book
Content:
Punya said:
What I don't like is marketing the Dharma.
From my worm's eye view, it just doesn't seem like marketing spin with this teacher. And the message that we look for happiness in all the wrong places is not a bad one. 84000 methods and all that.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no happiness in samsara. Not even a needle's breadth.

It is not his fault that Americans are "desperately seeking Susan."

First world problems...anyway, it is not my point to criticize OC, but rather point out how transparent and consumer oriented marketing of Dharma books is. I think Trungpa had a good term for it, "spiritual materialism."

Perhaps I should just accept that we live in a spiritually superficial culture...

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 8th, 2016 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: Our Pristine Mind - Orgyen Chowang's new book
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Anyway, as I said, I have met this teacher, and I like him.

What I don't like is marketing the Dharma. Thank goodness he did not put a Buddha or some teacher on the cover of his new book. That is a practice I find particularly abhorrent.
And you should by my book, Buddhahood in This Life, when it is released by Wisdom next December.
Yes, florin, it is understood that you do not like me. It's ok.

In this case, I was responding to a specific question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
So, production is not real and nonproduction is real, correct?

smcj said:
Does anyone else think we should abandon the word "real"? I personally like "valid" or "authentic" better. There's less connotation of physicality.

Malcolm wrote:
That is actually the point, Astus has been maintaining all along that, for example, in order for there to be an eye consciousness, there has to be an external object, a form, of which that consciousness is aware. You can make all kinds of claims about how ephemeral that form is, how it is a product of causes and conditions, and so on., but it is still a kind of realism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Our Pristine Mind - Orgyen Chowang's new book
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Now, now, Malcolm, your kleshas are showing.


Malcolm wrote:
Just one big bundle of kleshas, I guess.

Anyway, as I said, I have met this teacher, and I like him.

What I don't like is marketing the Dharma. Thank goodness he did not put a Buddha or some teacher on the cover of his new book. That is a practice I find particularly abhorrent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then it does not any sense to say that things arise from cause and condition, because as Mañjuśrīmitra points out, they are nondual in the mind.

Astus said:
It is the apparent production and the ultimate non-production that are non-dual, so it is conditionality that means the absence of substance, and emptiness that exists only as illusoriness of phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
So, production is not real and nonproduction is real, correct?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Astus said:
...but the functioning of consciousness cannot be unconditioned, because being aware of things is a conditioned occurrence.

Malcolm wrote:
So in terms of conditioned occurrences, their arising, abiding and perishing must be established. So how are you going to establish this? As conventions? That is fine, but a "convention" refers to an imputation and a reification.

Astus said:
...But I think you as well like to emphasise the non-duality of the two truths. And that singularity, where there are appearances without establishment, where consciousness and emptiness are inseparable, is all there is.


Malcolm wrote:
Then it does not any sense to say that things arise from cause and condition, because as Mañjuśrīmitra points out, they are nondual in the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: Our Pristine Mind - Orgyen Chowang's new book
Content:
Lhasa said:
Somebody has got to teach the 'Barnes&Noble-Starbucks-Yuppie-Yogi' crowd.  I saw this Lama live on TWR's stream last year.
He has no problem transmitting through a computer screen. My computer rebooted itself right in the middle of his teaching. He is very powerful. And in his introduction to this book, he talks about language and how what he was teaching got mangled using a translator, how he learned English and searched for a way to use words that convey his intent and connected to those he was teaching. This is not fluff.

Malcolm wrote:
I was primarily reacting to the titles of his public talks and what not, not to his book.

Even so, it seems that many Lamas feels compelled to do "a book," because if they don't, they won't reach any students.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
AlexMcLeod said:
I think they are confusing lack of "thoughts"  with lack of ability to have an intention.

Sherab Dorje said:
Intentions are not thoughts?

smcj said:
Is bodhicitta a "thought"? I don't know, just asking.


Malcolm wrote:
At the level of Mahāyāna, yes, it refers to the motivation to attain buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Astus said:
...but the functioning of consciousness cannot be unconditioned, because being aware of things is a conditioned occurrence.

Malcolm wrote:
So in terms of conditioned occurrences, their arising, abiding and perishing must be established. So how are you going to establish this? As conventions? That is fine, but a "convention" refers to an imputation and a reification.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: Our Pristine Mind - Orgyen Chowang's new book
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I met Orgyen Chowang when he first came to the US, back in 1998.

But it seems that now his teachings are the usual pap for the Barnes and Nobles crowd.

Frankly, it gets a bit nauseating to see Dharma teaching after Dharma teaching such as:

Happiness Depends On Your Mind
Cultivating The Power of Love and Compassion
The Way of Living: Ten Principles to Attract Positive Circumstances Into Your Life

etc.

I guess people in the US are just not attracted to teachings such as:

Razor which Destroys at a Touch
Shock and Awe
Severance
Taking out the Red Channel of Life.
etc.

Dont get me wrong, I think OC is a super nice person. It just troubles me to see someone so educated catering to such new age tripe.

Dharma just isn't about happiness in this life at all. Anyone who thinks it is, isn't practicing Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Please read ChNN as well as Sam van Schaik's work on pre-Buddhist Tibet. There was no systematized religion which was displaced....

Malcolm wrote:
That is not really correct, in my opinion. We just don't have good records of that period due to the amazing feat of cultural amnesia the Tibetan managed to pull off.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)
Content:
MiphamFan said:
I judge Islam based on its role in tbe destruction of Buddhism in India, Central Asia and Southeast Asia.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you can really blame Islam for this. You should read:

Buddhism and Islam on the Silk Road (Encounters with Asia), Elverskog, Johan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 1:24 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You apparently did not read this sutta carefully. Sariputra enters and exits each dhyāna before proceeding to the next one.

Astus said:
Please point me to the line you think means that.

Malcolm wrote:
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
Now, it does not say this for each dhyāna, only for the third and forth formless dhyānas. However, I think it is fair to say that it applies to all, because otherwise you have give a complicated explanation for why this is not said of the first six, etc.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:


Astus said:
Also, if you look at the description in the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html, Sariputra goes through the 8 jhanas, and only following nirodha-samapatti does he emerges from it and reflects. And that's quite logical, since in nirodha both feeling and perception stops, but not before that. And if you look into the other texts describing the sequence, it goes deeper and deeper, it's not that they always have to stop and go back.

Malcolm wrote:
You apparently did not read this sutta carefully. Sariputra enters and exits each dhyāna before proceeding to the next one.

I don't pay that much attention to what modern Theravadins say about meditation because they lost their lineage and reconstructed it from books.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Abh Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic studies. This guy is a Muslim who emphasizes the role of (a certain interpretation of) Islam in the role of ISIL which is just as justified as thato fmainstream Islamic jurisprudence: http://www.aymennjawad.org/?switch_site_version=normal

Malcolm wrote:
The issue is not whether ISIS represents a strand of Islamic thinking. It does. The point is that most people who are in ISIS have very little knowledge of Islam.

Whether or not it is as "justified" as other interpretations of Islam I will leave for Muslims to sort out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)
Content:
Fa Dao said:
why is no one taking into consideration islamist ideology as a causative factor? Why is it so hard to believe that there are people that whole-heartedly believe  in that ideology? ISIS isnt just made up of people who are pissed off poor people who blame the west for their situation. There are huge numbers of them who are educated and come from middle class and above socio-economic backgrounds.

Malcolm wrote:
These people generally have a very poor understanding of their own religion, just as most Buddhists do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 7th, 2016 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Right, this kind of one pointedness never abandon vitarka and vicara. It is essentially the first dhyāna or perfect śamatha.

Astus said:
Not necessarily. As I read the suttas, change from one jhana to another happens by recognition that the present mental factors are troubling. Then either one realises the true nature of appearances and abandons it all (i.e. nirvana) completely, or goes to the next level. It seems logical to me that unless there is a level of awareness, such a shift from one jhana to another could not happen. So, there is indeed correct samadhi and incorrect samadhi.

Malcolm wrote:
Shifts between dhyānas cannot deliberately happen after the second dhyāna. There can only be a deliberate shift through the remaining dhyānas by exiting one and then entering another. Because of the absence of vitarka in the second dhyāna on up, we then have the notion of so called "access concentrations."

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2016 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
The Cicada said:
Apparently there were only around 6 months between the death of Patton and the birth of Trump....

Malcolm wrote:
Then it is quite impossible for Trump to be the reincarnation of Patton.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2016 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:


Astus said:
He mentions development of jhanas to some extent, like in Detachment Within Activity on p 298-299.

In The Path in Harmony on p 316 he talks about the dangers of deep samadhi and that one should just go with access concentration. Then on the next page:

"So, there can be right samadhi and wrong samadhi. Wrong samadhi is where the mind enters calm and there’s no awareness at all. One could sit for two hours or even all day but the mind doesn’t know where it’s been or what’s happened. It doesn’t know anything. There is calm, but that’s all. It’s like a well-sharpened knife which we don’t bother to put to any use. This is a deluded type of calm, because there is not much self-awareness. The meditator may think he has reached the ultimate already, so he doesn’t bother to look for anything else. Samadhi can be an enemy at this level. Wisdom can not arise because there is no awareness of right and wrong.
With right samadhi, no matter what level of calm is reached, there is awareness. There is full mindfulness and clear comprehension. This is the samadhi which can give rise to wisdom, one can not get lost in it. Practitioners should understand this well. You can’t do without this awareness, it must be present from beginning to end. This kind of samadhi has no danger."

Malcolm wrote:
Right, this kind of one pointedness never abandon vitarka and vicara. It is essentially the first dhyāna or perfect śamatha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2016 at 7:40 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
For every capacity there is a different assertion, 
for every mentality there is a different vehicle,
and for every vehicle there is a different philosophy.
For example, it is like an elephant 
seen by the blind;
or the individual endearment every relative has
for a man or a woman;
or when a single barberry bush on a mountain pass
appears to be nine;
or the way six realms see different appearances
in a single instance of water.
— The Blazing Clear Dimension Tantra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 6th, 2016 at 7:36 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
catmoon said:
Thanks to all for your patience. At least now I can see the nut we are trying to crack.

First Problem

If there is an unconditioned mind, then it is beginningless, causeless.

If it's beginningless. it exists now.

If my mind is not pristine, its current state is conditioned, caused.

Therefore two minds exist and I am schizophrenic or something.

Malcolm wrote:
Time is not something real, therefore, this qualm does not apply [conditioned entities can only exist in time].


catmoon said:
Second Problem

Prior to enlightenment the Buddha's mind was not pristine.

After enlightenment it presumably was pristine.

Since this pristine mind could not have arisen without the prior existence of the conditioned mind...
The pristine mind is conditioned. If the pristine mind did not arise, but is present from beginningless time, we're back to problem 1.

I'm not trying to put these ideas forward as truth. I'm just trying to state the problems clearly.

Malcolm wrote:
Time is not something real, therefore, this qualm also does not apply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2016 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Differences in after life experiences all over the world
Content:
Nosta said:
All over the world, there are differences between the accounts of the after death visions. For example, christians may see Jesus; tibetans and some buddhists cultures will see wrathful gods or beautiful bodhisattvas.


If, as some lamas/Tibetan book of deads/ say, in the bardo we see the wrathful and benevolent deitys, why do westerners dont see them? I mean, if the bardo of death was really like the Tibetan Book of Dead describes, everybody would experience - among other things - that stuff related to deitys. But we dont see that on westerner descriptions of after life experiences.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because they have not received the empowerment of the peaceful and wrathful deities, and have not done this practice, so when they experience the sounds, lights and rays of the bardo of dharmatā, they just experience it as a confusing kaleidoscopic cacophony. Not only this, but the bardo passes in a flash for ordinary sentient beings who have not engaged in any kind of contemplative practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2016 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:


Astus said:
As a potential it means that the tathagatagarbha teaching is only about raising spirits and trying to convince people who are afraid of prajnaparamita.

Malcolm wrote:
That is certainly true of the way it is presented in the Lankāvatāra, but that is not how it is presented in the ten tathāgatagarbha sūtras.

In the latter sūtras, it is presented as the dharmakāya encased within afflictions, similar with butter in milk, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2016 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
catmoon said:
If the unconditioned mind arises from the conditioned mind.... then maybe it isn't unconditioned? At any rate there is no need for "both minds" to exist simultaneously. Pristine mind is a pretty concept but man there are some tricky problems attending it.
Are we on the same page now? Getting closer?

Astus said:
It doesn't arise from anything, since it's not something to arise or disappear, so in that sense it is unconditioned. But as long as it's presented as if there were an "it" or "something", it keeps generating this misinterpretation of an ultimate object or subject, while the whole point is to realise the lack of substances.

Malcolm wrote:
Pristine consciousness (jñāna) is the dharmatā of the mind or the cittatā of citta, inseparable clarity and emptiness.


Astus said:
To me, unfabricated sounds better than unconditioned, because fabrication implies active doing, while conditioning is being subject to something.

Malcolm wrote:
It is both unfabricated and unconditioned.

I have already shown above that cause and condition is incoherent with respect the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2016 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When no characteristics are perceived, that is called "perceiving emptiness."

Astus said:
That's a good example of figurative speech.

"All things that have characteristics are false and ephemeral. If you see all characteristics to be non-characteristics, then you see the Tathāgata."
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 5)

Malcolm wrote:
There is no correspondence between what the Tibetan text says and this translation into Chinese.

The Tibetan renders it as follows:
The perfect [32] marks are only false. In so far as the perfect [32] marks do not exist, they are not false. As such, one should see the marks and absence of marks on the Tathāgata.
You really should learn Tibetan.



Astus said:
[ Yes, and this is why we can say that pristine consciousness is unconditioned
Again, figuratively speaking.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not figurative. It can be taken literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2016 at 5:02 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
florin said:
"Sattvavajra  is our ordinary analitical-judgemental presence inside time which depends upon cause and effect
"Kunjed Gyalpo is our timeless  pure perfect presence beyond cause  and effect " JV.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, I completely disagree with this. This is not how these things are explained in Dzogchen exegesis, nor how they are to be understood.

The nidāna or gleng gzhi is a major topic of importance in understanding Dzogchen tantras.

As Shenphen Ozer writes in the beginning of the commentary on this text:
In that respect, not saying "[Thus have I] heard [at one time]" is a superiority over the common vehicles in which the teacher and the retinue appear as separate. Here, the powerful scholar vidyādharas of the past have said this [Thus did I explain at one time] is a phrase which shows the teacher and retinue to be inseparable.
There is even a citation from the Kun byed rgyal po itself which contradicts your assertion:
I have always been Kulyarāja. 
Having made the teacher, the teaching, the retinue and the time, 
the teacher of the teachers is also made by me. 
The teaching is the explanation of my nature. 
After the retinue is the arising of my essence,
the time and place are my nature.
That tantra is the Kulayarāja which explains my nature, 
aside from which there is not even a single Dharma that is explained which is not mine.
Vimalamitra expands upon this further:
The perfection of place is dharmatā free from proliferation, not established through any characteristic and not established within the experiential range of words and syllables. Since the teacher (the mode of the existence of things) does not exist even as a word upon which proliferation is based, he is not established in terms of faces and hands because he is not established as a nominal proliferation. The perfect retinue for such a teacher is the self-originated [rang byung], self-arisen [rang shar] display of dharmatā. The perfect teaching for such a retinue is one’s own vidyā, the ultimate teaching — though it originates, it is self-originated; though it arises, it is self-arisen without being created by any cause or condition; and it is free from arising and perishing. Though it is present pervading all, its characteristic cannot be understood by anyone. As such, since place, teacher, retinue and the Dharma to be explained meet in the natural reality of things, the perfect time is called “without beginning or end.”
The setting for this tantra is beyond time, and both the teacher and retinue are also beyond time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2016 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:


Astus said:
Is there such a thing as emptiness to perceive?

"This is a perfection of what is not, because space is not something that is."
(PP8000 9.4, tr Conze; T8n227v4p553a25)

Malcolm wrote:
When no characteristics are perceived, that is called "perceiving emptiness."


Astus said:
Dzogchen is the state of prajñāpāramita.
It looks like that prajnaparamita is a big common factor among all Mahayana schools.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and this is why we can say that pristine consciousness is unconditioned:
The mind that clings to entities and clings to cause and result
itself appears as cause and condition, but because those are nondual, there is no arising and perishing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2016 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
florin said:
So again whoever tells you that it is only about the basis in itself without any instructions aimed at practittioners that want to practically apply the principles of section 1 and 2 is mistaken.

Malcolm wrote:
It is principally about the view. The view is principally about the basis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 5th, 2016 at 2:41 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
No.The text addresses those who dont understand.And those who dont understand are practitioners  like us. Those practitioners are represented by Sattvavajra.

Therefore we have 3 sections.
1.Developing prajna through study
2.Developing prajna through reflection
3.Developing  prajna through meditation.
So again whoever tells you that it is only about the basis in itself without any instructions aimed at practittioners that want to practically apply the principles of section 1 and 2 is mistaken.

Malcolm wrote:
Sattvavajra is not someone who does not understand. Satvavajra, the retinue of vidyā, is the emanation of the dharmakāya Kulyarāja. This tantra only has an uncommon nidāna or introduction. It has no common nidāna. I.e, it has "This at one time did I explain" and no "Thus at one time did I hear." This means that the teacher and the retinue are the same continuum.

The three prajñās are the basis of all Buddhist paths: hearing, reflection and meditation. But of course the text says:
Since the transcendent state of I, Kulyarāja,
is beyond objects of reflection, it cannot be meditated.
Of course this is the case. It must be experienced.

But of course, in the commentary on chapter 78 , Shenphen Ozer cites Padmasambhava:
Though the view is higher than the sky, 
the cause and result of karma is finer than flour.
M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 11:56 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
They are empty luminous expressions of primordial potentiality and understood  as such.

Malcolm wrote:
Is there something that isn't? And if not, why isn't looking at a rock just as effective as looking at luminosities?

florin said:
Working with the luminosities is far superior to that of working with the temporal tsal energies of primordial state because one works with the real essence of the state rather than its temporal manifestation.

Malcolm wrote:
The simpler way to put it is that one cannot attain rainbow body by working with karmically solidified vision which arises from traces. One needs to work with so called "appearances of primordial wisdom (pristine consciousness)."

All appearances initially arise from the (unrecognized) potentiality ( rtsal ) of compassion ( thugs rjes ) because this corresponds with what ordinary sentient beings are able to see (i.e., the nirmanakāya), and this is why thugs rje corresponds with the nirmanakāya.

In other words, we are only able to perceive a portion of the basis, with which we are not integrated due to our ignorance. The path allows us to remove that ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:



florin said:
Of course there is no progress because there is no mental cultivation  based on effort but there is manifestation of the body  of light by stably resting in the primordial state while working with the luminosities.

Malcolm wrote:
And what are the "luminosities." Are they the same or different than the basis (primordial state is just ChNN's translation of the term gzhi )?

M

florin said:
They are empty luminous expressions of primordial potentiality and understood  as such.

Malcolm wrote:
Is there something that isn't? And if not, why isn't looking at a rock just as effective as looking at luminosities?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
If you guys spent half of the time spent doing the things you are saying, you'd all be Mahasiddhas by now!


Malcolm wrote:
Baby steps.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
Because by doing a combination  of light and dark practices the progress  can be much swifter.

Malcolm wrote:
How can there be progress when there is nothing to cultivate?


florin said:
Of course there is no progress because there is no mental cultivation  based on effort but there is manifestation of the body  of light by stably resting in the primordial state while working with the luminosities.

Malcolm wrote:
And what are the "luminosities." Are they the same or different than the basis (primordial state is just ChNN's translation of the term gzhi )?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Because they are empty.

Astus said:
What isn't?

This is definitely a point of contention. In general, in sūtra, it is considered that on the path of seeing all ordinary appearances vanish, one does not perceive them anymore. It is only in post-equipoise that appearances, albeit, now truly dream-like and illusory, return.
If by "ordinary appearances" it is meant as perceiving with delusion, then it is OK. If what is meant is total cessation of perception, then it is more like nirodha-samapatti.

Malcolm wrote:
When perceiving emptiness on the path of seeing, it is described as perceiving "space like emptiness." One does not perceive characteristics of things at all, therefore, there is no perception of things. It is not nirodha, because there isn't a total cessation of perception. There is a perception of emptiness.



Astus said:
Mañjuśrīmitra states:
That sounds just like the prajnaparamita teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

Dzogchen is the state of prajñāpāramita.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
Because by doing a combination  of light and dark practices the progress  can be much swifter.

Malcolm wrote:
How can there be progress when there is nothing to cultivate?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:


Astus said:
It sounds like you say that people have no experience of their senses, they only think of sense impressions. To me it seems common to just gaze without any thoughts or labels, but still being aware of the view.

Malcolm wrote:
We do not conceptualize when we have a physical sense consciousness. We assemble concepts about what we see through sensation perception and the other mental factors, which produce our second order conceptual consciousness. It is for this reason that "manas" is described as a past mind.


Astus said:
No, the emptiness of emptiness is not a conceptual emptiness, neither is the emptiness of the unconditioned. These things are empty whether we conceptualize that emptiness or not.
Why make them categories of emptiness then?

Malcolm wrote:
Because they are empty.


Astus said:
The direct perception of emptiness is not a "normal" perception. If it were, all people would have it all the time.
Perceiving emptiness is not perceiving a particular object, but the lack of fabrication. Might call that uncommon, but I was referring to the usual sensory functions, that they do not cease to operate.

Malcolm wrote:
This is definitely a point of contention. In general, in sūtra, it is considered that on the path of seeing all ordinary appearances vanish, one does not perceive them anymore. It is only in post-equipoise that appearances, albeit, now truly dream-like and illusory, return.


Astus said:
The causality that I do not reject is the same as the self that I do not reject.
Fair enough.

Malcolm wrote:
Mañjuśrīmitra states:
It may be said, “The way all this is produced is dependent origination, arising and ceasing.”
Like a burnt seed, a nonexistent is not produced from a nonexistent; the cause and the result do not exist. 
The mind that clings to entities and clings to cause and result
itself appears as cause and condition, but because those are nondual, there is no arising and perishing. 
Because there is no arising and perishing, there is no self and other. Because there is no death and transmigration, there is no permanence and annihilation. 
Therefore, there is no delusion or samsara. In fact, there is also no nirvana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
...read Longchenpa. And if you don't believe him, let me remind you that according to ChNN, there is no Tibetan who is more authoritative on explaining the meaning of Dzogchen that Longchenpa.

RikudouSennin said:
Any specific text you had in mind?

Malcolm wrote:
To be honest, I am not super pleased with any of the translations of Longchenpa's works that are out there (to be honest, I am not super pleased at the state of translations of Dzogchen material out there in general).

However, that said, you should get a copy of the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu, and the Treasury of Words and Meanings. And you should by my book, Buddhahood in This Life, when it is released by Wisdom next December.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 7:01 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
You see "cultivation" is totally  contradicting the imediacy of the principles discussed in KG.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why it is not mentioned much. Kun byed rgyal po is mainly about the basis, the subject that we have not manifested.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
florin said:
You say you've read the commentary. If you did you would know that chapters 70 to 84 deal with meditation and what this means in this context.The tantra of kunjed gyalpo is split in three sections.First section deals with developing prajna through study second  with  prajna through reflection and third with prajna through  meditation.

Malcolm wrote:
I said:
the Kun byed rgyal po does not actually contain instructions about the path of realizing rainbow body. That is what man ngag sde is for, i.e., how to manifest the result which we have not realized (the basis a.k.a "primordial state").
And neither, for that matter, do any of the three surviving lineages of sems sde instruction.

florin said:
I remember  other occasions  where you maintained that KJ does not contain instructions on meditation, which is of course inaccurate.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in any clear cut and systematic manner. For example, the four samadhis are not systematically explained. The term samadhi is mentioned exactly eight times in the whole text.

And the term sgom, which is mentioned around 32 times means not just meditation, but a whole range of "cultivations", since that really what the term means.

The classic take on sems sde is that it primarily concerns the view. I am pretty happy with that.

If your goal is rainbow body, klong sde and man ngag sde are the ticket. If you want rainbow body, practice according to the sgra thal gyur, the root tantra of Dzogchen in general.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 5:49 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
florin said:
You say you've read the commentary. If you did you would know that chapters 70 to 84 deal with meditation and what this means in this context.The tantra of kunjed gyalpo is split in three sections.First section deals with developing prajna through study second  with  prajna through reflection and third with prajna through  meditation.

Malcolm wrote:
I said:
the Kun byed rgyal po does not actually contain instructions about the path of realizing rainbow body. That is what man ngag sde is for, i.e., how to manifest the result which we have not realized (the basis a.k.a "primordial state").
And neither, for that matter, do any of the three surviving lineages of sems sde instruction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
At this point I think would be in order to suggest that you do 2 things.
First connect with JV and have a serious discussion and second get familiar with Khenpo Shenphen Oser's commentaries on Kunjed Gyalpo.

Malcolm wrote:
I have had many serious discussions with Jim, he is my neighbor (he lives about 10 miles from me). I read Tibetan fluently and I have read the commentary in question, in addition to many, many others. I have also heard ChNN teach on sems sde, many times.


florin said:
However, from what i can see , it appears that you have not discussed with him these very specific points raised here.

Malcolm wrote:
You keep forgetting one thing. Ignorance, ma rig pa.

The reason why the basis is called "the basis" is because we did not realize it because we are under the influence of ignorance.

So while it may be the case from the point of reality that our five elements are actually the nature of the light of pristine consciousness or "wisdom," we do not see that because, as you yourself put it, we have not manifested that. The practice for manifesting that is the path, and when our body, etc., finally reverts into pristine consciousness, its real nature, this is called the "result."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
These last few attain buddhahood in 500 years after taking birth for 125 years in each of the buddhafields of the four directions. Dzogchen practitioners have no need to practice Pure land Buddhism.

Tenso said:
You don't think simple recitation is more appropriate for those with a lesser capacity as opposed to doing visualizations?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no distinction between sharp and dull in Dzogchen teachings. The 21 capacities measure diligence in practice, not suitability for receiving Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It means the international liberalization of trade. This has devastating consequences for smaller economies and the environment, and indeed some of the most pernicious effects of neoliberalism the inability of smaller signatory countries to protect their environments in the face of lawsuits from foreign corporations which claim that environmental regulations are trade barriers, etc.

Queequeg said:
Those lawsuits go both ways. Some US environmental standards have been overturned because multinationals brought suit in the international trade court. Those excesses need to be amended.

I don't like the short term drawbacks, but the flipside of liberal trade laws is the economic development it brings and ideally, improvements to standards of living in the long run.

Malcolm wrote:
Globalization has rapidly increased the rate of global warming and habitat loss.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are actually 21 capacities discussed in the Dzogchen tantras, only the best of the best attain rainbow body in this life. The rest are liberated in the bardo, and the last four or so of the average take rebirth in nirmanakāya buddhafields

Tenso said:
Why shouldn't these last four practice Pure Land exclusively instead? What's the point of Dzogchen for them?

Malcolm wrote:
These last few attain buddhahood in 500 years after taking birth for 125 years in each of the buddhafields of the four directions. Dzogchen practitioners have no need to practice Pure land Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
At this point I think would be in order to suggest that you do 2 things.
First connect with JV and have a serious discussion and second get familiar with Khenpo Shenphen Oser's commentaries on Kunjed Gyalpo.

Malcolm wrote:
I have had many serious discussions with Jim, he is my neighbor (he lives about 10 miles from me). I read Tibetan fluently and I have read the commentary in question, in addition to many, many others. I have also heard ChNN teach on sems sde, many times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Seems that in the end, you approve of neoliberalism.

Queequeg said:
I'm not entirely sure what neoliberalism means. I'll settle for how things are done at a fundamental level with deep reservations, until something better comes along.

Malcolm wrote:
It means the international liberalization of trade. This has devastating consequences for smaller economies and the environment, and indeed some of the most pernicious effects of neoliberalism the inability of smaller signatory countries to protect their environments in the face of lawsuits from foreign corporations which claim that environmental regulations are trade barriers, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
You can find such ideas in certain sems de scriptures like kunjed gyalpo.The presentation and introduction of dzogchen view via these ideas , from what i could see up until this point, is very different if not a bit more radical  than the views to what most dzogchen practitioners have been introduced to.Unfortunately this particular type of presentation, which happens to be Jim Valby's speciality, has the potential to confuse , disturb and upset lots of practitioners old and new, as well as certain masters.

DGA said:
Thank you. Where in the Kunjed Gyalpo is the realization of ja lus (body of light) discussed?

florin said:
Throughout the entire text.But you will need to be properly introduced to details via oral and symbolic transmission  about what it all means to say that we are the body of light already and how it can be  manifested.

Malcolm wrote:
That is the point, florin, the Kun byed rgyal po does not actually contain instructions about the path of realizing rainbow body. That is what man ngag sde is for, i.e., how to manifest the result which we have not realized (the basis a.k.a "primordial state").

For example, the commentary on the kun byed rgyal po contains myriad citations from the man ngag sde tantras in order to flesh out the meaning which is not explicitly discussed in the kun byed rgyal po itself. However, when one has received instructions on man ngag sde, then it is relative easy to to see how various things stated in the kun byed rgyal po imply thögal.

But there is no way that one can attain the complete result of Dzogchen teachings based on sems sde alone. If you don't believe me, read Longchenpa. And if you don't believe him, let me remind you that according to ChNN, there is no Tibetan who is more authoritative on explaining the meaning of Dzogchen that Longchenpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 4:27 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Basically, we are happy to support non-ideological dictators, but we are unhappy with ideological dictators like Chavez because they cut into corporate profits.

Queequeg said:
Chavez was an unmitigated idiot. You want to discourage investment in your country? Nationalize everything of value you have.

What he didn't see coming was $30/barrel oil, and the foundation of that whole plan fell apart.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not take away anything from what I said.

Seems that in the end, you approve of neoliberalism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Rongzom states:

If is asked, "Do characteristics exist or not in appearances?,” [...]

tomamundsen said:
Where is this from? Looks like a worthwhile read...

krodha said:
The text is called The Black Snake.

Malcolm wrote:
I meant to answer, it is actually from the Intro to Mahāyāna, but there is also this text mentioned by kyle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So-called "rainbow body" is called properly "a body of light", but I am really not sure that what is described by Orthodox Christians can be considered the same, Ivo, etc., not withstanding. In order to achieve the body of light, you need to have the practice of thogal. Without that, well...

Sherab Dorje said:
Of course there is always the possibility that somebody practiced thogal in a previous life but realised it in this one.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. And if you have studied the twenty-one capacities of Dzogchen practitioners, you will clearly understand why.

Coming back to this world, other than in a Dharma family, is just not an option.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
An example on this forum - look at the way people look at speech. I don't think you can deny that the Americans have very different ideas about the parameters of permissible speech compared to non-Americans, on the whole.

I don't have the appetite to argue with you about American values... I don't know how much experience you have abroad - that's when you really see how different Americans are.
That has almost zero to do with how America conducts itself globally as an entity, in terms of projecting power, in terms of what it does and does not support in other nations etc. If anything generally our government has a pretty poor track record of supporting these supposed "values", except when they serve financial interests.

Malcolm wrote:
Basically, we are happy to support non-ideological dictators, but we are unhappy with ideological dictators like Chavez because they cut into corporate profits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Queequeg said:
Its even more the case when you try to conduct business abroad. Its shocking to find out how much harder it is to get anything done in other countries after doing business in the US.

Malcolm wrote:
This has mostly to with trust. We have a higher level of trust in business here in the US, but other countries do not have such a high level of trust, and that is why it is harder to get things done in other places. It is really that simple.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The great mistake people make is trying to parse Dzogchen to fit their limited views.

DGA said:
And not only Dzogchen, no?  This seems true of every endeavor an afflicted being like myself could get involved with.

Malcolm wrote:
What I mean is this: people hear a facet of Dzogchen teachings, and assume, "Oh, this is the real Dzogchen teaching, the rest are..." This kind of attitude comes from not studying. For example, some people will say, "Dzogchen is the highest yāna, but it must be approached gradually, after practicing ngondro, three roots, etc." Other people will say, "In Dzogchen we do not need to do anything, fix anything, contrive anything, because everything is perfect just as it is."

Both of these statements represent partial views.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We are not conscious of direct perceptions either, since they are nonconceptual. Therefore, according to you, nonconceptual pristine consciousness (nirvikalpajñāna) is an impossibility.

Astus said:
Why wouldn't we be conscious of basic sensory impressions? I think we have a terminology problem here... We see many colours, hear many voices, etc. But of course we do not give special attention to all of that, don't label them all, don't start thinking about them, and so on. However, the store-consciousness is a whole different matter, and I don't see how your response even relates to that.

Malcolm wrote:
Direct perceptions are nonconceptual by nature. It means we are not conscious of them. We are not conscious of the blueness of the vase when it is perceived by vijñāna, it is only after it has been discriminated and become a second order perception that we become conscious of a blue vase that we have seen.


Astus said:
Again, you here make a wholesale rejection of nonconceptual jñāna, as well as direct perceptions. Thus, for you buddhahood is a conceptual, conditioned, impermanent mind, in contradiction with all the sūtras and tantras.
We can very well understand nonconceptual experiences, actually that's what we normally do all the time, conjecturing about sights and sounds, all sorts meditative experiences, and practically anything. And since sutras and tantras talk about nonconceptuality, they do give explanations and do conceptualise it.

Malcolm wrote:
You are like a man, not content with one shade for the window, who must put up three so that he is in total darkness.


Astus said:
Emptiness is not always the emptiness of something, for example, the emptiness of emptiness or the emptiness of the unconditioned. Awareness is not always an awareness of something, for example, yogic direct perception of emptiness on the path of seeing.
The emptiness of emptiness is dropping the conceptual grasping of the idea of emptiness, so it does have something there. Same goes for the unconditioned. Perception of emptiness is not perceiving anything (i.e. it's only nominally a type of perception), it is just normal perception without the imputation of substance.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the emptiness of emptiness is not a conceptual emptiness, neither is the emptiness of the unconditioned. These things are empty whether we conceptualize that emptiness or not.

The direct perception of emptiness is not a "normal" perception. If it were, all people would have it all the time.


Astus said:
No, you are imputing causality onto appearances, there is no causality which can be found in appearances themselves. If you assert that appearances operate according to causality, you are falling into realism.
What is the kind of causality then that you do not reject?

Malcolm wrote:
The causality that I do not reject is the same as the self that I do not reject.
Astus said:
They act spontaneously.
What does that mean? They act out of habit? Or what is the cause, the intention for their actions?

Malcolm wrote:
A buddha simply responds to the needs of sentient beings spontaneously without any thought at all, in just the same way a wishfullfilling gem grants all wishes without any thought at all about the one who possesses it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 4th, 2016 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


DGA said:
Thank you. Where in the Kunjed Gyalpo is the realization of ja lus (body of light) discussed?

Malcolm wrote:
No where.

DGA said:
Thanks Malcolm. That's what I figured but I've not read the text entire, only the translation in The Supreme Source.

Malcolm wrote:
The great mistake people make is trying to parse Dzogchen to fit their limited views.

Dzogchen is a vast body of teachings, and there is no such thing as "pure" Dzogchen. Dzogchen, in its essence, is a part of Secret Mantra and exists with in that context.

Sems sde, within the Dzogchen literature itself, is mainly treated as the completion stage of mahāyoga, and in fact is really more or less the same thing as trekchö.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


heart said:
So Garab Dorje didn't know how to present Dzogchen in a proper way? The three words are not good enough for you?

/magnus

florin said:
Certain short tantras contained in Kunjed Gyalpo are the exact words of Garab Dorje .So there is no departure from the original meaning.

heart said:
The Dzogchen Tantras are supposedly older than Garab Dorje, so that doesn't compute. But I am sure he quoted from them. However his famous three words don't contain the words; "first, you have to accept that you already have the rainbow body".  In fact in Dzogchen texts don't assume a intellectual view at all, either you recognize the natural state or not.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
And the three words themselves are from the sgra thal gyur, originally.

Basically, there is this idea that the five bodhicitta texts translated by Vairocana, the four lungs and Mañjuśrīmitra's Meditation of Bodhicitta, somehow represent the real authentic or original Dzogchen. Well if they do, everybody grab a māla:
Further, because the teacher has declared that awakening can be correctly grasped with a symbol,
in that case, this is the basis of the meditation that generates awakened mind. 
After the three samadhis are stable, and after binding three symbolic mudras, 
generate the mind as the great dharmamudra and meditate the recitation of the essence [mantra].
Because most of us are not realizing the meaning of Dzogchen with the so-called direct method, so indirect methods are called for. Similar encouragements to use tantric methods can be found in the Dorsem Namkhaiche, which are supposedly the first words that Garab Dorje taught.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Dan74 said:
And is it any better with domestic policies, with people time and again voting against their own best interests due to the ideological brainwashing. Is it any wonder that the average voter is completely confused?

Malcolm wrote:
It has been pointed out that the left in the US votes on its ideals, while the right votes on its resentments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


DGA said:
Hm. would you please explain where this ^^^ is taught?  I have not heard or read this.

florin said:
You can find such ideas in certain sems de scriptures like kunjed gyalpo.The presentation and introduction of dzogchen view via these ideas , from what i could see up until this point, is very different if not a bit more radical  than the views to what most dzogchen practitioners have been introduced to.Unfortunately this particular type of presentation, which happens to be Jim Valby's speciality, has the potential to confuse , disturb and upset lots of practitioners old and new, as well as certain masters.

DGA said:
Thank you. Where in the Kunjed Gyalpo is the realization of ja lus (body of light) discussed?

Malcolm wrote:
No where.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
florin said:
we are already the body of light.And in order to manifest it all one has to do is to rest in the primordial state.

DGA said:
Hm. would you please explain where this ^^^ is taught?  I have not heard or read this.

florin said:
You can find such ideas in certain sems de scriptures like kunjed gyalpo.The presentation and introduction of dzogchen view via these ideas , from what i could see up until this point, is very different if not a bit more radical  than the views to what most dzogchen practitioners have been introduced to.Unfortunately this particular type of presentation, which happens to be Jim Valby's speciality, has the potential to confuse , disturb and upset lots of practitioners old and new, as well as certain masters.

Malcolm wrote:
The bodhicitta texts concern the basis and direct introduction, but they lack any method to attain rainbow body.

It is a given in Dzogchen that our basis or primordial state is essence, nature and compassion. The actual state of the five elements, for example, is the five pristine consciousness, and this is why rainbow body is possible. But we do not manifest rainbow body in the present because of our ignorance, the trio of ignorances which we are subject to after we did not recognize the display of the basis as our own state, once upon a time.

There is not a single idea in the bodhicitta texts such as Kun byed rgyal po and so on that is not present in the man ngag sde. Actually, the reverse is the case. There are many things in man ngag sde which you will never find in the bodhicitta texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You are not only arguing that seeds are not experienced, you argue that the ālayavijñāna does not exist because according to you it is not aware.

Astus said:
The store-consciousness' function is to maintain the seeds, where the seeds and the store-consciousness depend on each other, forming a stream. So, the store-consciousness is aware of the seeds (plus the "material" (not the 5 sense-consciousnesses) world). It includes and maintains all that one is not actually aware of, but it is explained as if there were a consciousness that knows of innumerable things, just like the ordinary ideas about the subconscious and memory where so many things are hidden. However - and this is where the problem is - none of us are actually conscious of anything that the store-consciousness supposedly knows. And, as you have noted before, the eight are simply functions of one consciousness, and it is unreasonable to say that one cannot know what one actually knows, there cannot be such a store-consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
We are not conscious of direct perceptions either, since they are nonconceptual. Therefore, according to you, nonconceptual pristine consciousness (nirvikalpajñāna) is an impossibility.



Astus said:
We did say what was immune [to argument], and that is nonconceptual pristine consciousness.
The reason you say it is immune, is because it cannot be conceived. What cannot be conceived cannot have a meaning, because meaning comes from conceiving what something is. Therefore, it is immune, because it is meaningless. On the other hand, if it is meaningful, then there is something to be conceived, and it is within the boundaries of conceptual analysis, hence not immune.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, you here make a wholesale rejection of nonconceptual jñāna, as well as direct perceptions. Thus, for you buddhahood is a conceptual, conditioned, impermanent mind, in contradiction with all the sūtras and tantras.


Astus said:
It is differentiated because pristine consciousness is the dharmatā of the mind, the essence of the mind.
How can you separate something from its essence? Also, what is not the essence, the attributes? Is it the mind that discerns its own essence?

Malcolm wrote:
In the same way you can separate a grain from its husk. A conceptual mind will never perceive its own essence, because it focuses outward. But when, through either samadhi or introduction, the conceptual stream of the mind is interrupted, the nature of the mind shines out, like the sun shining through clouds, and is unmistakable.


Astus said:
Therefore, the original mind is dharmatā emptiness which is the luminous mind that does not become solely empty by nature or an inert emptiness and is called self-originated wisdom. Since there isn’t an iota of a characteristic of conditioned or unconditioned apart from being intrinsically clear emptiness, it is beyond the inert composed of particles, clarity which possesses subject and object, and a knowing consciousness.
Emptiness is always emptiness of something, just as awareness is awareness of something. Saying that appearances are always experienced (awareness, consciousness, mind) and also without essence (empty, not self, ungraspable), is perfectly fine with me. And an empty knowing as an abstract concept is also good, as long as it's not turned into some transcendental soul.

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness is not always the emptiness of something, for example, the emptiness of emptiness or the emptiness of the unconditioned. Awareness is not always an awareness of something, for example, yogic direct perception of emptiness on the path of seeing.


Astus said:
Who rejected causality? No me. I said it was not something which could be established, that does not mean I negate it.
What would be an establishment, a substrate, for causality? Actually, an ultimate consciousness would be exactly that. However, that's not something I proposed. What I say is that causality is how appearances operate. I can also add to that, just to emphasise the lack of any substrate here, that causality is a conceptual interpretation of appearances, and appearances themselves are very much unattainable. In other words, I take it to be illusory, phenomenal, apparent.

Malcolm wrote:
No, you are imputing causality onto appearances, there is no causality which can be found in appearances themselves. If you assert that appearances operate according to causality, you are falling into realism.

Astus said:
For a completely realized person, there is no difference between a strawberry or a raspberry, so he or she does not need to make a choice.
Does such a person then simply starves to death (or dies from dehydration, or perhaps stops breathing...) because of his inability to function in the world?

Malcolm wrote:
They act spontaneously.


Astus said:
This is of course an experience, it is the realisation that there is no real substance. It could be said that it is the same experience as before, except here there is none of the usual personalisation and objectification.

Malcolm wrote:
And thus, it is an unconditioned experience, a nonconceptual pristine consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Saoshun said:
Hilary Clinton = War

Malcolm wrote:
On this much, we agree.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So for you, there can only be conceptual consciousness, and no nonconceptual consciousness, which means there can be no direct perceptions, and awakening is therefore also a conceptual state.

Astus said:
How so? Even the highest jhanas can be experienced, they can occur in the realm of the mind.

Malcolm wrote:
When one is in nirvikalpa samadhi, is this an experience or not? Are there nonconceptual experience? If so, how?

Seeds occurs in the realm of the mind, so why they not experiences?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 1:22 AM
Title: Is it all America's Fault? Discuss - From POTUS part 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
MOD NOTE- THE FOLLOWING WAS SPLIT OFF OF POTUS PART 2.

-QQ


Queequeg said:
In the meantime, I am so grateful there are oceans separating us from the sh*tstorm that is about to hit the old world.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a shitstorm that the West created from colonialist policies. It is actually our mess. We need to help clean it up (and not with more guns and bombs).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So for you, there can only be conceptual consciousness, and no nonconceptual consciousness, which means there can be no direct perceptions, and awakening is therefore also a conceptual state.

Astus said:
How so? Even the highest jhanas can be experienced, they can occur in the realm of the mind. Seeds do not exist as experiences at all. It's not a question of nonconceptuality.

Malcolm wrote:
You are not only arguing that seeds are not experienced, you argue that the ālayavijñāna does not exist because according to you it is not aware.


Astus said:
It is immune from the conventions of language because nonconceptual pristine cannot be accessed through conceptual analysis, that is the point of Sthiramati's presentation of the Buddha's meaning.
If it's not accessed through conceptual analysis, it is neither a statement, nor an argument, since it cannot be said what is immune.

Malcolm wrote:
We did say what was immune [to argument], and that is nonconceptual pristine consciousness.


Astus said:
Thus, mind is an affliction to be abandoned. Pristine consciousness is a quality to be acquired. Differentiating mind and pristine consciousness, in the end, is all the path is about.
Unfortunately, pristine consciousness is something that cannot be known. It can't be known because it is beyond ordinary mind, and it cannot be known because it is not even in the scope of consciousness. So, how do you differentiate?

Malcolm wrote:
It is differentiated because pristine consciousness is the dharmatā of the mind, the essence of the mind.


Astus said:
That is a pretty pessimistic view, and is at the heart of what Wayfarer was trying to get at with "if there is a an born, etc., there is an unborn, etc."
Why pessimistic? That's the inseparable two truths. It's just that while you like to say rainbow bodies and unconditioned minds, I like a cup of coffee and a slice of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kal%C3%A1cs.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not been discussing the inseparable two truths, your two truths are entirely separable.

Astus said:
Sure, no sentient beings, no buddhas. Stands to reason. But there is still something before buddhas attained realization and sentient beings fell into delusion. In Kagyu, it is called the mahāmudra of the basis.
As I have http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?p=336108#p336108, that basis of samsara and nirvana is the clarity-appearances, in other words, knowing and feeling of all sorts of phenomena.

Malcolm wrote:
Mipham mentions this in the quote I gave you before:
Therefore, the original mind is dharmatā emptiness which is the luminous mind that does not become solely empty by nature or an inert emptiness and is called self-originated wisdom. Since there isn’t an iota of a characteristic of conditioned or unconditioned apart from being intrinsically clear emptiness, it is beyond the inert composed of particles, clarity which possesses subject and object, and a knowing consciousness.

Astus said:
Homogeneity means the two truths are inseparable. Since Madhyamakas assert a true relative truth, they do not understand this point. Nondual means that having understood the two truths as inseparable, one abandons views since all phenomena are in fact nondual.
Since they are one, why reject causality and views?

Malcolm wrote:
Who rejected causality? No me. I said it was not something which could be established, that does not mean I negate it.


Astus said:
there is no ability to develop formations— not accepting, not rejecting, not moving, and not seeking. As such, this culmination of the comprehension of being like an illusion is also proven to be the culmination of comprehending the two truths as inseparable.
So, if such a person is offered a choice between strawberry and raspberry, can he not decide? If he can, how is that not accepting and rejecting?

Malcolm wrote:
For a completely realized person, there is no difference between a strawberry or a raspberry, so he or she does not need to make a choice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
florin said:
First , i have no such leanings and never had .
Second, your consideration  by implication accuses Jim Valby of  perennial sympathies since this somewhat controversial assertion comes from him.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, well, if this assertion comes from Jim, I don't agree with Jim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:


florin said:
It happens or it happened in the Orthodox tradition but since this church is in minority compared to the rest of western traditions it is not very well known .I could be mistaken but many years ago i vaguely remember reading a story of a particular hermit which lived most of his adult life  alone in the forest and which at the end of his life did not die but transmuted his phisycal body into the body of light.

Malcolm wrote:
So-called "rainbow body" is called properly "a body of light", but I am really not sure that what is described by Orthodox Christians can be considered the same, Ivo, etc., not withstanding. In order to achieve the body of light, you need to have the practice of thogal. Without that, well...


florin said:
Apparently there is no need to practice thogal in order to manifest the body of light.

Malcolm wrote:
If you wish to believe this is so, I am not going to stop you. I generally consider such impulses to come out of the Perennial Philosophy movement.

florin said:
Of course in the history of dzogchen practice most evidence if not all points to the contrary , including longde.But the assertion that all practitioners who manifested the body of light practiced thogal does not mean, in my opinion , that the body of light can ONLY be manifested if one practices thogal ,longde or dark vissionary  practices.

Malcolm wrote:
You are free to believe what you will.

For myself, I don't see how it possible, barring certain kinds of completion stage practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 11:14 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma is only function of a delusion; the eight consciousness are just a name for different functions of one consciousness, that consciousness is deluded.

Astus said:
It cannot be a function of consciousness if there is no consciousness/awareness of it.

Malcolm wrote:
So for you, there can only be conceptual consciousness, and no nonconceptual consciousness, which means there can be no direct perceptions, and awakening is therefore also a conceptual state.

Astus said:
It is free from extremes since none of these terms are relevant to the meaning. It can't be refuted because it not a subject of analysis by ordinary persons.
What is relevant to the meaning then? It is still a statement made within the boundaries of conventional language, so it cannot be exempt from the rules of argument.

Malcolm wrote:
It is immune from the conventions of language because nonconceptual pristine cannot be accessed through conceptual analysis, that is the point of Sthiramati's presentation of the Buddha's meaning.

Astus said:
Right, the mind does not need to purified. It is an affliction to be abandoned.
Where are the afflictions, if not within the realm of consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
Thus, mind is an affliction to be abandoned. Pristine consciousness is a quality to be acquired. Differentiating mind and pristine consciousness, in the end, is all the path is about.


Astus said:
Nope. Pratyatmyavedana, "personally known for oneself."
That's a strange Sanskrit word.

Malcolm wrote:
It is actually quite common in Sanskrit Buddhist texts.

Astus said:
Drinking tea and getting dressed are activities of delusion.
Delusions are all there is.

Malcolm wrote:
That is a pretty pessimistic view, and is at the heart of what Wayfarer was trying to get at with "if there is a an born, etc., there is an unborn, etc."


Astus said:
"Conditioned generation is the place of enlightenment, because ignorance and so forth through old age and death, are all unexhausted. The afflictions are bodhi, because of understanding according to actuality. Sentient beings are the place of enlightenment, because of understanding no-self. All dharmas are the place of enlightenment, because of understanding the emptiness of the dharmas."
(Vimalakirti Sutra, ch 4, BDK Edition, p 100)

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, no sentient beings, no buddhas. Stands to reason. But there is still something before buddhas attained realization and sentient beings fell into delusion. In Kagyu, it is called the mahāmudra of the basis.

Astus said:
Madhyamakas cling to correct relative truth, not understanding homogeneity and nonduality.
What do you mean by homogeneity and nonduality?

Malcolm wrote:
Homogeneity means the two truths are inseparable. Since Madhyamakas assert a true relative truth, they do not understand this point. Nondual means that having understood the two truths as inseparable, one abandons views since all phenomena are in fact nondual.

Astus said:
Everything is completely equivalent to an illusion, not merely "like" an illusion.
I think there are two possible reasons that rarely anyone puts up an extreme claim as you seem to do. Antinomianism is feared to be misused as http://www.georgegatenby.id.au/kw40.htm, or one wants a more coherent system that includes the stages of the path. Probably the two goes together.

Illusions are causes and conditions. It makes little difference to call pain and joy illusory as long as one is bound by them. And when not bound, it doesn't matter whether one calls them illusory or not either.

Malcolm wrote:
Astus, the etymology of the word "Illusion" is maya, maya means "deception" and "false." Appearances are either false or not. They cannot be a little false, just as one cannot be a little pregnant.

Rongzom states:
If is asked, "Do characteristics exist or not in appearances?,” if characteristics are held to exist, how will the system of the Great Perfection be the culmination of comprehending “like an illusion?” In that case, the higher and lower views are merely differentiate between more and less attachment to reality in appearances. 

For example, for the reflection of a black snake in the water; some will see a snake, [48/a] and will leave due to their fear. Likewise, even though phenomena which are a source of suffering are like an illusion, they are abandoned by the hearers who perceive them as real.

Even though some understand the black snake to be a reflection, thinking it will be harmful if touched, even so they depend on medicine. Likewise, even though in the system of the perfection of wisdom the relative is like an illusion. However since there is a view in which functional agents exist, one develops pristine consciousness concerning the objects of knowledge and relies upon the medicine of great compassion. [This is the perspective from which you are making your arguments, Astus]

Since some understand the black snake is a reflection. Even though it touched, no harm is perceived. They able to communicate to those with anxiety that its touch has no power. Likewise, in the systems of action and outer yoga tantra, even though it is comprehended there is no fault in lower conduct and substances, they do not have the capacity for intrepid behavior. But they have the capacity for the behavior of making offerings to deities, perform strict discipline, accomplishment substances, etc. 

Some understand there is no fault in touching a black snake even if touching it has the ability to harm, because that anxiety is rapidly removed, for which reason the strict discipline of the conduct of subjugation exists.[49/a]  Likewise, the system of inner yoga stands on the neck of practice to quickly render all phenomena homogenous. One’s behavior specifically corresponds to the strict discipline of the absence of virtue and misdeed in phenomena and the lack of no purity or impurity in food choices. 

Since some, possessing an undeceived mind regarding the characteristic of a reflection of a black snake, see all of those behaviors as the behavior of children. Thus, leaving aside the others, abandoning existents, etc.;, even the heroic subjugation of that reflection of a black snake is seen as a childish thought.  Accepting, rejecting or a mind fabricating the condition of those cannot develop, and moving and seeking do not occur. Likewise, since the system of the Great Perfection comprehends and is the culmination of the comprehension of all phenomena as totally equivalent to illusions, in that case, the mind is not confused by the power of appearances and there is no ability to develop formations— not accepting, not rejecting, not moving, and not seeking. As such, this culmination of the comprehension of being like an illusion is also proven to be the culmination of comprehending the two truths as inseparable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
fckw said:
Well, to be fair, there IS a reason why I practice Buddhist meditation and not, for example, Christian contemplative prayer.

Virgo said:
Do Christians attain Rainbow Body?

Kevin

florin said:
It happens or it happened in the Orthodox tradition but since this church is in minority compared to the rest of western traditions it is not very well known .I could be mistaken but many years ago i vaguely remember reading a story of a particular hermit which lived most of his adult life  alone in the forest and which at the end of his life did not die but transmuted his phisycal body into the body of light.

Malcolm wrote:
So-called "rainbow body" is called properly "a body of light", but I am really not sure that what is described by Orthodox Christians can be considered the same, Ivo, etc., not withstanding. In order to achieve the body of light, you need to have the practice of thogal. Without that, well...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 11:05 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
From the ecological point of view, human beings are the most pernicious invasive species of all time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In the Tibetan, it is clearly translated as "unconditioned" (' dus ma byas, asaṃskrita ), not "cessation" ( nirodha, dgog pa ). You are using Mueller's list, not the text itself.

Astus said:
Muller simply translated it: http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T31n1614_001, and it lists the same 6 unconditioned dharmas, 1 empty space (虛空), 1 suchness (真如), and 4 types of cessation (滅). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiji http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T44n1836_002 lists the same six. See also the http://www.cttbusa.org/100shastra/100dharmas9.asp.

Malcolm wrote:
I think I will stick with the Tibetan translation.


Astus said:
There are no moments, so this is not a problem. The three times are not established.
If that's not a problem, then there is no need for any seeds to connect past actions with future fruits, thus the storehouse-consciousness is redundant.

Malcolm wrote:
Karma is only function of a delusion; the eight consciousness are just a name for different functions of one consciousness, that consciousness is deluded.


Astus said:
It is an argument — nonconceptual pristine consciousness is immune to refutation because it is free from all extremes.
It is nonconceptual, and not conceptual. That's an extreme. It is pristine, not defiled. That's an extreme. It is an independent consciousness, not a dependent one. That's an extreme. Since it's not at all free from extremes, it is not immune to refutation either.

Malcolm wrote:
It is free from extremes since none of these terms are relevant to the meaning. It can't be refuted because it not a subject of analysis by ordinary persons.


The point is that delusion is not part of the mind.
Is it outside the mind then? Because then the mind need not be purified.
Right, the mind does not need to purified. It is an affliction to be abandoned.
One says "self-originated" because reality is only discerned for oneself without depending on another.
So is it another term for mind made?
Nope. Pratyatmyavedana, "personally known for oneself."
Sure there is emptiness outside of the aggregates, the emptiness of emptiness, for example, or the emptiness of the unconditioned. The dharmadhātu is an emptiness "outside of the aggregates.
Seeing the emptiness of the aggregates is about clarifying whatever we experience. Otherwise, the various categories of emptiness are for refuting specific attachments to specific ideas, so theoretically we could have as many types of emptiness as concepts.
You said there was no emptiness outside of the aggregates.
Who is denying appearances? Appearances self-display, but no cause and condition can be found for them. Who denies conventionality? The conventional is just deluded attributions for self-displayed appearances.
Is self-display like self-originated, i.e. mind made? If, as you seem to say, the correct view is when appearances only self-display without causality and interdependence, then how can one drink tea that way, or even get dressed?
Drinking tea and getting dressed are activities of delusion.
But this not a confirmation of conventionality.
It seems so to me.
It seems so to those who cling to the conventional as real. Madhyamakas cling to correct relative truth, not understanding homogeneity and nonduality.

Everything is completely equivalent to an illusion, not merely "like" an illusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Why vote for another incompetent politician who lost billions for his investors in four bankruptcies?

Tenso said:
What's the alternative? You tell me.

Malcolm wrote:
It sure isn't Trump. He has no interest in this apart from satisfying his ego.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We, along with Europe, caused the Syrian crisis, etc.

Tenso said:
Yeah by incompetent leaders to be exact. But why should should ordinary citizens be made to suffer now due to those careless mistakes?


Malcolm wrote:
Why vote for another incompetent politician who lost billions for his investors in four bankruptcies?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:


Tenso said:
Do you actually know the severity of their situation right now? Their women are afraid to leave their own homes in fear of being sexually assaulted and raped. Should Germans that are horrified by that all be condemned as "racists" in your opinion?

Malcolm wrote:
I know that in the fringe media, there is a lot of hysteria. I have relatives in Germany. I assure you, it is not a scene out of Road Warrior.

Tenso said:
Your statements about Trump is typical slander from the far left.

Malcolm wrote:
My statement is based on Trump's own words. If you find his comments about Mexicans, Muslims, women, torture and so on acceptable, I pity you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Manjushri Fan said:
I would say the article is true, for the UK.

I don't see anything wrong with immigration, only the dart right see immigration as detrimental to their quality of life and culture

Tenso said:
Nothing wrong with immigration at all for those that are able to assimilate.

Malcolm wrote:
We, along with Europe, caused the Syrian crisis, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Ayu said:
It's fine - as long as your mind is not stirred with hate, tension and anxieties.

Tenso said:
Strongly admire your composure. If I was a native German I'd be completely horrified right now.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sure many racist Germans are horrified right now.

Face it, Trump's campaign is nationalist, and all nationalist campaigns are fundamentally racist and xenophobic.

I don't really see how any Dharma practitioner can support Trump because of his race-baiting, war-mongering jingoism and xenophobic policies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is the error of your view. You imagine that conventional things are like hollow bubbles, they have no insides, but they still somehow exist.

Astus said:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html, and

All conditioned phenomena
Are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble, a shadow
Like the dew, or like lightning
You should discern them like this
( http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html, ch 32)
In reality, also the hollow bubbles you cling to have never arisen, so what is the need to even speak of their essence?
Sure, all dharmas are unborn, inconceivable, and inexpressible. At the same time, there is no emptiness outside the aggregates, or to talk of anything else but the insubstantiality of one's experiences.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure there is emptiness outside of the aggregates, the emptiness of emptiness, for example, or the emptiness of the unconditioned. The dharmadhātu is an emptiness "outside of the aggregates.


Astus said:
Denying appearances, denying conventionality - what is that good for?

Malcolm wrote:
Who is denying appearances? Appearances self-display, but no cause and condition can be found for them. Who denies conventionality? The conventional is just deluded attributions for self-displayed appearances.


Astus said:
As the quote goes (MMK 24.14): "All is possible when emptiness is possible. Nothing is possible when emptiness is impossible."

Malcolm wrote:
But this not a confirmation of conventionality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, delusion exists as an adulteration of the mind, but since it is not inherent to the mind, it is extraneous to the mind from the beginnging.

Astus said:
Delusion is the delusion of the mind, not something outside it. As for its inherency, I did not say anything like that.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that delusion is not part of the mind.

Astus said:
This not only a dhyānic radiance.
It is not, "In the later developed concept...", as the essay says. And so it's been further developed in Theravada, just like in Mahayana. But it has not been said so in the suttas themselves.

Malcolm wrote:
Do you take the suttas to be the definitive statement on the Buddha's teachings?


Astus said:
Everything which appears is merely a unconditioned self-apparent display nondual with an unconditioned self-originated pristine consciousness.
That's certainly one way to say it. However, if we analysed that sentence, it would be quite problematic. For instance, just as you say that arising of even one thing is not established, self-origination is refuted in the same way.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

One says "self-originated" because reality is only discerned for oneself without depending on another.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Same text, Tibetan translation from Chinese.

Astus said:
I don't see any feeling and perception among the unconditioned dharmas on that list. Unless you mean saṃjñā-vedayita-nirodha, what is a cessation.

Malcolm wrote:
In the Tibetan, it is clearly translated as "unconditioned" (' dus ma byas, asaṃskrita ), not "cessation" ( nirodha, dgog pa ). You are using Mueller's list, not the text itself.

Astus said:
If nothing substantiates nominal interdependence, why argue so hard that consciousness must be conditioned?
There is just nominal interdependence, that is, conditioned phenomena. Saying that there is an unconditioned consciousness leans towards permanence, and saying there is no consciousness leans towards nothingness. So, I prefer the language of dependence-impermanence.

Malcolm wrote:
Not if it is understood as empty, which indeed it is. All phenomena are empty, whether, conditioned or unconditioned.

Astus said:
It is not a hidden consciousness.
Who experiences it? Ordinary people don't see it, and buddhas don't even have it. Plus there is a problem that it requires innumerable moments of consciousness in a single moment, in order to maintain the flow of unripe past impressions.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no moments, so this is not a problem. The three times are not established.

Astus said:
It is a very good argument, one that has left you silenced and unable to reply.
I have replied that it's not an argument. You just turned that into a personal remark now, instead of showing how it was a valid statement from your part.

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

It is an argument — nonconceptual pristine consciousness is immune to refutation because it is free from all extremes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 2nd, 2016 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:


Astus said:
Annihilation is the error when something is eliminated or something ceases to exist. There has never been an essence ever, so it cannot be nullified. So, where does it apply to what I say?

Malcolm wrote:
This is the error of your view. You imagine that conventional things are like hollow bubbles, they have no insides, but they still somehow exist.

In reality, also the hollow bubbles you cling to have never arisen, so what is the need to even speak of their essence?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2016 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Astus said:
However, assuming a duality between buddha-nature and the defilements is exactly the theory of atman.

Malcolm wrote:
No, no more for example, that assuming that a husk is not the germ is a theory of atman.


Astus said:
Delusion exists as an element of the mind-stream, and when delusion is removed, it's not a factor in the mind any more. It is like the clearing of water, that is not coloured by defilements

Malcolm wrote:
No, delusion exists as an adulteration of the mind, but since it is not inherent to the mind, it is extraneous to the mind from the beginning.


Astus said:
It's jhana radiance, not soul radiance.

"In early Buddhism, the “radiant mind” (pabhassara citta) refers neither to an absolutely pure state of mind nor to spiritual liberation, but is the dhyanic mind that is radiant on account of not being disturbed or influenced by external stimuli."
( http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/8.3-Radiant-mind.-piya.pdf )

Malcolm wrote:
Not so fast, Kimosabe, your pdf ends by saying:
The Buddhist teaching that the mind is by nature radiant is a very wholesome notion in working with suffering. It means that suffering is mind-made situation, a misperception of true reality, that clouds out the natural radiance, plunging one into greater darkness of delusion and pain. When the mind is attended to directly with mindfulness, one touches the natural radiance, and when one clears away the mental hindrances and other defilements, the mind shine radiantly again.
This not only a dhyānic radiance.



Astus said:
"Consciousness without feature,  without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end.'"
As the sutta itself says, consciousness ceases. Adding in brackets "activity of" means little, since a non-active consciousness is just unconsciousness. See more: https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/vinna%E1%B9%87a-is-not-nibbana-really-it-just-isn%E2%80%99t/. More analysis on the unestablished consciousness: http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/17.8a-Khandha-5-Vinnana-piya.pdf.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are an advocate of cessation. When a buddha or arhat dies, his consciousness ceases. This is definitely not the Mahāyāna view.

Astus said:
It is no different from Madhyamaka's middle way of empty interdependence.

Malcolm wrote:
In order for one thing to depend on another thing, one thing must arise upon which another must depend. But this does not solve anything. Why? Since the arising of even one thing cannot be established, there is no arising. Everything which appears is merely a unconditioned self-apparent display nondual with an unconditioned self-originated pristine consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2016 at 9:43 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Um, Astus, one is called vedana-asamkrita, the other is called samjñā asamkrita, respectively unconditioned sensation and unconditioned perception/ideation.

Astus said:
I used this one from Vasubandhu: http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/outlines/100dharmas.html. What is your source?

Malcolm wrote:
Same text, Tibetan translation from Chinese.


Astus said:
If you claim it is merely an essence of phenomena that have not arisen, this means you grasp to the conventional as real. This comes from not understanding homogeneity and nonduality.
Being real requires an essence. Without essence, what is there to be called real? Conventionality is nominal interdependence, appearing illusion without anything substantiating it. To say that there is nothing that arises is a conventional expression that sounds like utter nothingness. I'm not saying that the dharmas are not unborn. What I'm saying is that there are other ways to put things.

Malcolm wrote:
If nothing substantiates nominal interdependence, why argue so hard that consciousness must be conditioned?


Astus said:
That is really not true at all. For example, what takes rebirth in the yogacara system is precisely the ālayavijñāna.
That's how they came up with an explanation for karma, positing a hidden consciousness to bridge death and birth, cause and effect, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a hidden consciousness.

Astus said:
When we see the conventional as the conventional, then we can understand that things like causes and conditions are just erroneous attributions. Since this is the case, conditioned consciousnesses are impossible. Why? Because when the conventional is seen as conventional, it is seen as a delusion.
And that's all we have, the illusory world. An opposite of that would be a real world, or nothingness. Here you just deny it, so that's the nothingness option.

Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no denial, even an illusory world is not established. Why deny what has never been established from the start?

Astus said:
Further, the Kāśyapa-parivarta Sūtra states: ...
Sthiramati's comment on how this is understood is instructive: ...
That is equal to saying: not this, not that, but I cannot say what. That is not an argument, or even a statement.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a very good argument, one that has left you silenced and unable to reply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2016 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Bristollad said:
That's an excellent illustration that whites can't dance. What, are they paralyzed from the hip up?
Nope, that just the style

and Malcom, No man, those people are Irish, not "White", which is a special "ethnic" term some pink-skinned people in the US use to refer to themselves.
So how would you define pink-skinned ethnic group in the USA that calls itself "white"?  Who is in it?  Non-dancers, who else?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2016 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Your assertion that all consciousnesses are conditioned is unproven. For example, Vasubandhu notes that there are unconditioned sensations and perceptions among the six unconditioned dharmas he identifies.

Astus said:
So, the 6 unconditioned dharmas are: space, 4 types of cessation, suchness. None of them are anything in particular. Calling them "consciousness" doesn't really fit, since they do not denote any thought, feeling, or perception.

Malcolm wrote:
Um, Astus, one is called vedana-asamkrita, the other is called samjñā asamkrita, respectively unconditioned sensation and unconditioned perception/ideation.

Astus said:
Not only that, but the Bodhisattvapitika clearly states: Futher, an unconditioned consciousness is a pristine consciousness (jñāna)
That refers to the absence of self-grasping. But what functions as consciousness is dependently arisen.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is not the intent of the sutra. Why? Because it contrasts conditioned with unconditioned consciousness.

Astus said:
Consciousness in which there is no delusion is a pristine consciousness, self-originated and unconditioned.
See my previous comment. Although it can be said that since there is no attachment, it doesn't rely on anything, doesn't identify with anything, so in a way it is as you say. My problem is that when it is said there is an "unconditioned consciousness", because consciousness means knowing and thinking, and there can be no knowing and thinking without causes and conditions, it is a contradiction.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a contradiction only if one has stubborn clinging things as real. But we already know that causes and conditions are completely unreal, so why get stuck on a consciousness being unconditioned? In reality, there are no conditioned phenomena because cause and conditions are not established, having never arisen from the beginning. If you claim it is merely an essence of phenomena that have not arisen, this means you grasp to the conventional as real. This comes from not understanding homogeneity and nonduality.

Astus said:
So what isn't a theory?
That's a valid question. The difference here is that while normally it is easy to identify the first six consciousnesses, and that's what one works with, the 7th and 8th are not seen nor used for anything, except for theorising about karma.

Malcolm wrote:
That is really not true at all. For example, what takes rebirth in the yogacara system is precisely the ālayavijñāna.

Astus said:
No, the basis of the "conventional" is delusion. Cause and condition cannot be established apart from delusion, they are rooted in delusion, and therefore, the basis of the conventional is also delusion.
The delusion in conventional is to take it for the absolute. When conventional is seen as conventional, there is no problem, so it is then the absolute. In other words, conventional is not negated but enlightened. But, again, we can say that there is either deluded functions and buddha functions, and the two never meet. However, I consider that model more misleading.

Malcolm wrote:
When we see the conventional as the conventional, then we can understand that things like causes and conditions are just erroneous attributions. Since this is the case, conditioned consciousnesses are impossible. Why? Because when the conventional is seen as conventional, it is seen as a delusion.

Further, the Kāśyapa-parivarta Sūtra states:
"Permanent," that is one extreme;"impermanent," that is another extreme. Whatever is the middle of those two cannot be investigated.
Sthiramati's comment on how this is understood is instructive:
If it is asked what is an extreme, the extreme of the tirthikas is grasping at a self. That is grasped as permanent, reifying the aggregates, sense bases and elements..."'Permanent,' that is the first extreme..." means "self, that is the first extreme." 

The śravakas and pratyekabuddhas grasp the aggregates and so on as impermanent and grasp them as selfless..."'Impermanent,' that is the second extreme..." means "selfless, that is the second extreme." 

"Whatever is the middle of those two, that is..." means that is nonconceptual pristine consciousness. Because that cannot be analyzed, it cannot be investigated.
Something [nonconceptual pristine consciousness] which is neither permanent nor impermanent can hardly be called conditioned. It also cannot be called something that arises from cause and conditions. Nonconceptual pristine consciousness is by definition beyond the range of conventional analysis and can only be discovered for oneself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 1st, 2016 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules
Content:
boda said:
I left and started the moribund Vajracakra because I was being targeted by a pathological maniac
Karma's a bitch.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 8:14 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Bristollad said:
https://youtu.be/B718RsboGEI

"Whites" can't dance?  Of course, white is not an ethnic group.

Malcolm wrote:
No man, those people are Irish, not "White", which is a special "ethnic" term some pink-skinned people in the US use to refer to themselves.

if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 8:00 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The seer is empty clarity.

Astus said:
Is clarity a form of consciousness/awareness/knowing? If yes, it is conditioned. If no, what is it?

Malcolm wrote:
Your assertion that all consciousnesses are conditioned is unproven. For example, Vasubandhu notes that there are unconditioned sensations and perceptions among the six unconditioned dharmas he identifies. Not only that, but the Bodhisattvapitika clearly states:
Futher, an unconditioned consciousness is a pristine consciousness (jñāna)


Astus said:
If the eight consciousnesses are the assumption of self in consciousness, when there is no such mistake, it is impure. Is that what you say?

Malcolm wrote:
Consciousness in which there is no delusion is a pristine consciousness, self-originated and unconditioned.


Astus said:
I have been saying that for a while.

Malcolm wrote:
So what isn't a theory?


Astus said:
Causality is the basis of the conventional, the illusory. I don't say it is anything more than conceptual.

Malcolm wrote:
No, the basis of the "conventional" is delusion. Cause and condition cannot be established apart from delusion, they are rooted in delusion, and therefore, the basis of the conventional is also delusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 7:25 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
When the three realms are seen as delusion from top to bottom, then it is seen correctly.

Astus said:
And the question is if you propose that the seer is real or illusory.

Malcolm wrote:
The seer is empty clarity.


Astus said:
Pristine consciousness is not a product of causes and conditions since no causes and conditions can be found at all. If you insist that the only thing that exists are things produced out of causes and conditions, your view is really no better than realism, and betrays an inner attachment to a self of persons and things.
Pristine consciousness is the same consciousness as the deluded one, with the difference that it lacks identification. And then it can be said that the absence of identification is unconditioned.

Malcolm wrote:
Pristine consciousness is not the same consciousness as the deluded consciousness, but you can say that the eight consciousnesses arise from mistaking the nature of self-originated pristine consciousness for being a self.

Astus said:
What I am saying here is that what one experiences is the seeds in the sense that without the seeds/traces there are no deluded experiences to be had.
Yes, the seeds are the assumed causes of delusion. And because it is merely an assumption, it's nothing experienced, but an element of a theoretical explanation.


Malcolm wrote:
So what, now you are saying that the all-basis consciousness is merely a theory?

I also note that you did not reply to my charge that you are suffering from an hidden grasping to the self of persons and things by your insistence on the verity of cause and condition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 7:11 PM
Title: Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules
Content:
Dan74 said:
MYM and Malcolm, you may well have a point but do you remember a few years ago when moderation was a lot more lax, a number of people left in a huff because they felt they were being harassed by certain members and blamed the mods for not stepping in?

Malcolm wrote:
I did not leave in a huff. I left and started the moribund Vajracakra because I was being targeted by a pathological maniac and the moderation team would not do anything about it at all, despite repeated complaints, while concerning themselves with "proper language" and so on. I did not find the team then more lax, I found them concerned with the wrong issues. Focusing on trivia like "bad words," when it was clear that one of its (most valuable) users was being totally harassed.

Dan74 said:
More recently a number of people complained in public and private that the level of discord on the forum is really unpleasant and left.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this happens. People lose their appetite for aggressive posters.

Dan74 said:
Lightening up and having a light touch are always a good thing but balancing conflicting preferences of members for a more hands-off approach vs tighter more civil tone, is quite tricky.

Malcolm wrote:
I would focus more on whether people are being kind to each other, than on whether they are using swear words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 6:57 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Causality is a delusion. Further, your assertion proposes that there cannot be a consciousness of any kind which is free of the three realms, which does not take birth in the three realms, that outside of the three realms there can be no sort of consciousness at all.

Astus said:
If the three realms stand for a deluded approach, one should leave all that behind; but as long as there is something one takes as the true self, an ultimate consciousness, it is still the three realms of delusion. If the three realms can be viewed with either a pure or an impure mind, then there is no other realm or consciousness to look for either, thus we are already in the pure land of Shakyamuni.

Malcolm wrote:
The three realms are by definition a place of suffering and samsara. Merely looking at it through rose-colored glasses wont change anything but the color.

The terms "ultimate" and "relative" are much abused. To be ultimate is merely to be seen correctly, to be relative is merely to be seen incorrectly. When the three realms are seen as delusion from top to bottom, then it is seen correctly.


Astus said:
Au contraire, this is why we have rainbow body.
This body-mind is no different from a rainbow - it looks like there is something, but it's just the momentary product of causes and conditions.

Malcolm wrote:
Pristine consciousness is not a product of causes and conditions since no causes and conditions can be found at all. If you insist that the only thing that exists are things produced out of causes and conditions, your view is really no better than realism, and betrays an inner attachment to a self of persons and things.

Astus said:
The problem is with deluded appearances. The appearances of pristine consciousness are not a problem, and nor can there be any attachment to them. If there is attachment, the appearance is automatically a product of delusion and is delusion.
Then this is only a matter of terminology.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.

Astus said:
All eight consciousnesses and their attendant dharmas are delusion, products of delusion and experiences of delusion.
The question is about experiencing seeds, not delusions. Since seeds are not experienced, they are conceptual assumptions of a theoretical explanation, a philosophical attempt to connect action and fruit.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't say that the seeds were experienced, you really did not understand the sentence. I said:
All delusion is the experience of seeds/traces.
What I am saying here is that what one experiences is the seeds in the sense that without the seeds/traces there are no deluded experiences to be had.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 5:43 PM
Title: Re: ye shes and jalus
Content:
Tenso said:
how are these two the same and different from one another?

thanks


Malcolm wrote:
Rainbow body is formed out of pristine consciousness, or to put it more accurately, when the elements of the body revert to their original nature as pristine consciousness, this is called "rainbow body."

It does not mean that you suddenly burst into rainbow light, if you attain this in this life, ordinary people will still see you just as you were, but perhaps you will not cast a shadow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 5:33 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Queequeg said:
People waiving Mexican flags protesting scared white people having a rally is just going to tend to galvanize those scared white people.

Myoho-Nameless said:
White people have very, very few places to turn or things to identify with when they feel, and also ARE, antagonized. What do we have?



I predict a massive swing to the right in the coming decades. Nothing like the Trump bandwagon. Non whites antagonize whites at their own risk. Population issues are nothing, "useless breeders" can easily be adversely affected by a wealthy power minority.


Johnny Dangerous said:
You mean *poor* white people, who are most of Trump's base, and will be the base for similar movements to come. The irony is, they will be lead by people like Trump that don't give two squats about the plight of poor whites, or anyone else, but simply find turning poor people of different races against one another to be politically useful to maintain their oligarchy. Truthfully, it does happen to some degree on the democratic side too, for sure.

Malcolm wrote:
"Whites" should get over themselves. They do not even form a coherent ethnic community, unless you define them by the fact that white people in general cannot dance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 5:32 PM
Title: Re: Please be more consistent with the enforcement of the rules
Content:
mindyourmind said:
I really believe that the moderators here can lighten up a bit, and that goes for language, for topics and for tough debates. The Dharma, and its practitioners, can handle more than what you seem to think. Open the windows, let the fresh air and sunlight stream in.

Some of the rules here would please a Baptist preacher.

( I say this with great love for the mods and the forum, but above all for the Dharma)

Ayu said:
Can you please write a PM to the respective moderators about what you mean exactly? Which cases? Which acts of moderation? This critique is not helpful, because there is not the slightest hint, what you are talking about.

Malcolm wrote:
He means that the moderation here is often a bit overbearing. The moderation team here has heard this complaint before and usually responds with "You have no idea how tolerant we are" followed with "You have no idea how hard it is to be a moderator."

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 5:20 PM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Even so, this does not go beyond delusion.

Astus said:
Anything that is beyond causality is irrelevant in life.

Malcolm wrote:
Causality is a delusion. Further, your assertion proposes that there cannot be a consciousness of any kind which is free of the three realms, which does not take birth in the three realms, that outside of the three realms there can be no sort of consciousness at all.


Astus said:
No, it isn't.
In that case, there is neither enlightenment in this life, nor is it compatible with life.

Malcolm wrote:
Au contraire, this is why we have rainbow body.


Astus said:
This is a subtle reification of things. Your view here is very much the same as the Gelugpa view.
Do you think then that the problem is not (only) with attachment, but with appearances?

Malcolm wrote:
The problem is with deluded appearances. The appearances of pristine consciousness are not a problem, and nor can there be any attachment to them. If there is attachment, the appearance is automatically a product of delusion and is delusion.


Astus said:
All delusion is the experience of seeds/traces.
Deluded experiences are manifestations of seeds, not the seeds themselves.

Malcolm wrote:
All eight consciousnesses and their attendant dharmas are delusion, products of delusion and experiences of delusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 3:21 PM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Queequeg said:
People waiving Mexican flags protesting scared white people having a rally is just going to tend to galvanize those scared white people.

Myoho-Nameless said:
White people have very, very few places to turn or things to identify with when they feel, and also ARE, antagonized. What do we have?



I predict a massive swing to the right in the coming decades. Nothing like the Trump bandwagon. Non whites antagonize whites at their own risk. Population issues are nothing, "useless breeders" can easily be adversely affected by a wealthy power minority.

Malcolm wrote:
Fascism is easy, but it always ends badly for the Fascists...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 3:58 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is suffering they brought on themselves, no pity.

Queequeg said:
Indeed.

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https://phpbbex.com/ [video]

Malcolm wrote:
Hahaha. White trash indeed. What a putz.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 3:40 AM
Title: Re: Enlightenment of Robots?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The former.

Queequeg said:
What would be the merit quotient of setting loose a bot that just spammed mantras across the internet?

Malcolm wrote:
Not much. At least you have to turn a prayer wheel, and it requires some attention.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Poor scared white people...boo hoo.

Queequeg said:
where's your compassion? look at how they suffer.


Malcolm wrote:
It is suffering they brought on themselves, no pity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
It is inevitable that we are going to become a mestizo/maroon society, with Spanish becoming the dominant language of the working class.

White folks will become rare. And so what?

M

Queequeg said:
Coming to terms with reality has hardly ever figured in an American presidential election... why would that become relevant now? People waiving Mexican flags protesting scared white people having a rally is just going to tend to galvanize those scared white people, was my point.

Malcolm wrote:
Poor scared white people...boo hoo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:


Queequeg said:
People who are on the fence but are concerned with immigration are going to find the waiving of a foreign flag, ESPECIALLY A MEXICAN FLAG, at an American political rally energized by xenophobia confirming their fears. Things like that are just going to energize Trump voters to get out and vote.

Malcolm wrote:
There are more people of Native American and African descent in the Americas than white people. The latter should figure this out.

Queequeg said:
I don't follow your point...

Malcolm wrote:
It is inevitable that we are going to become a mestizo/maroon society, with Spanish becoming the dominant language of the working class.

White folks will become rare. And so what?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Dependent origination was never taught to explain the nature of things. It was taught only explain the process of delusion and how to reverse it.

Astus said:
I did not refer to the 12 links only, but the general concept of causality. Three examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patthana, http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Paratantra, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra%27s_net.

Malcolm wrote:
Even so, this does not go beyond delusion.


Astus said:
Second, there are no "things" for which dependent origination is the nature.
"No things" is exactly what dependent origination is about. But illusory doesn't mean nothing.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, illusions are not "nothing" since there is no "something" in an illusion to negate or to become nonexistent.

Astus said:
since the eight consciousness are strictly deluded, there can be no buddhahood in them.
That's when they "turn into" the four wisdoms. But it's just the same old body-mind without delusion.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it isn't.




Astus said:
There can be no time, conditions, causes, etc., in a real sense.
It's all in an unreal sense. That's the whole point of emptiness, to see how unreal everything is. And they are all already unreal just as they are. The only error is this deluded idea of a real self, real substance. There is no error in a bowl of soup, or a pair of socks. The error is imagining them to be anything that they are not.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a subtle reification of things. Your view here is very much the same as the Gelugpa view.



Astus said:
Since the the all-basis consciousness is the imputing nature, it is very active.
Do you experience the innumerable seeds replicating themselves every moment, waiting to be ripened in an unknown future time?

Malcolm wrote:
All delusion is the experience of seeds/traces.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Malcolm, but unlike Rongzom you said earlier in this thread that sadhana practice does not develop the sutric dhyanas?


Malcolm wrote:
It is not their main function, no. Look, you can generate dhyāna on a pile of dung.

The sūtric dhyānas are not a buddhist practice, per se., as I already outlined.

We can even see this neurologically — sadhana practices result in the activation of the sympathetic system, inducing heightened cognitive competence; while classical Theravada meditation, Zen, Kagyu Mahāmudra, etc., increases parasympathetic activity, inducing states of relaxation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Astus said:
The problem is, that aside from the five sense organ consciousness, all the three others can be described as conceptual consciousnesses
The reason I said it's the 6th, is because both the 7th and 8th are latent. They are proposed in order to set up a fairly coherent theoretical model, but nobody ever actually experiences them, they are practically non-functional.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the case. Since the the all-basis consciousness is the imputing nature, it is very active.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 1:56 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Strange that they says this. It means that either you have not understood them, or that they are wrong.

Astus said:
As for Huineng, it wasn't given much weight anywhere - as far as I am aware -, probably because it is a short discussion between him and an advocate of the Nirvana Sutra. The exception is Dogen, who used that bit to turn it into an attack on a prevalent interpretation of buddha-mind. While it was Dogen who made that interpretation one of the main elements of his teachings, as he shows by a number of quotations, the common reification of buddha-nature has been pointed out by teachers before him as well. More on Dogen's buddha-nature interpretation: http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/library/key_terms/pdf/key_terms13.pdf, http://www.lionsroar.com/impermanence-is-buddha-nature-embrace-changemay-2012/, http://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/Kodera-Dogen.pdf, https://books.google.com/books?id=AmKE2xIjOwcC.
Mipham states:
As I see it, the dual qualities of emptiness-awareness can be applied perfectly well to the five aggregates, in the sense that they are without essence, and at the same time exist as experiences. But assuming that there is something beyond, an eternal knower, is just a self-view.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not grasped the point. The notion of conditioned/unconditioned depend on reification. They depend on the notion of time and entities being real.

When you insist that emptiness is only the emptiness of dependently origination things, this is wrong on two counts. Dependent origination was never taught to explain the nature of things. It was taught only explain the process of delusion and how to reverse it. Second, there are no "things" for which dependent origination is the nature.

Since the conditioned is not established, it goes without saying that the unconditioned is not established.

However, since the eight consciousness are strictly deluded, there can be no buddhahood in them. Since pristine consciousness is free from conditions, time, entities, concepts and so on, only in it can buddhahood be found. When it is said that self-originated pristine consciousness is unconditioned and beyond the eight consciousness, this means that one has realized that there is also no basis for dependent origination nor the conditioned, not to mention the unconditioned. The real meaning of dependent origination is nonorigination. There can be no time, conditions, causes, etc., in a real sense. This is why there is no buddhahood in the mind because the mind [citta] is always conceptual, always bound causes, conditions, time, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
fckw said:
I don't see why one should take such promises in Dzogchen tantras literally, but not the Bible or the Coran.

Malcolm wrote:
That all depends on whether you regard them definitive or not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: POTUS 2016, part 2
Content:


Queequeg said:
People who are on the fence but are concerned with immigration are going to find the waiving of a foreign flag, ESPECIALLY A MEXICAN FLAG, at an American political rally energized by xenophobia confirming their fears. Things like that are just going to energize Trump voters to get out and vote.

Malcolm wrote:
There are more people of Native American and African descent in the Americas than white people. The latter should figure this out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 30th, 2016 at 12:49 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So for you Buddhamind is conditioned, therefore it is impermanent.

Astus said:
On the one hand, that's what Huineng and Dogen says, that buddha-mind is impermanent. On the other, supposing a buddha outside of one's mind (buddha-nature beyond the five aggregates) makes it an unattainable theory.

Malcolm wrote:
Strange that they says this. It means that either you have not understood them, or that they are wrong.

Mipham states:
Therefore, the original mind is dharmatā emptiness, the luminous mind that does not become solely empty by nature or an inert emptiness and is called self-originated pristine consciousness. Since there isn’t an iota of a characteristic of conditioned or unconditioned apart from being intrinsically clear emptiness, it [original mind] is beyond the inert composed of particles, clarity which possesses subject and object, and a knowing consciousness. It is to be realized with personal knowledge that sees the true state. It has no correlation with the group of eight consciousnesses. Since the apprehending subject and apprehended objects of concepts and signs have never existed in the dharmatā of the union of knowing and emptiness, the signs of dualistic phenomena such as samsara and nirvana, delusion and liberation, self and other, beginning and end, and so on, have never existed in it since it naturally abide in uniform nonconceptuality.


Astus said:
The presentation you provide of yogacara i really dont agree with. Try sourcing from Asanga.
Do you have a quote perhaps, to give the interpretation of manas and manovijnana you agree with?

Malcolm wrote:
My error, I conflated vijñāna of the five aggregates with the presentation of manovijñāna in yogacara. Nevertheless, there is still a distinction to be made here. The Mahāyānasamgraha states:
Mental discernment (manovijñāpti) is the reason for discerning that the eye and so forth encounter phenomena. The discernment of mental consciousness possesses a view. Mental consciousness is conceptual because discernment generates all appearances.
The problem is, that aside from the five sense organ consciousness, all the three others can be described as conceptual consciousnesses, which still makes your presentation from Living Yogacara illsuited. The Mahāyānasamgraha states:
The the concept of the foundation is the all-basis consciousness.
Vasubandhu expands on this slightly:
Since the fundamental concept is "imputation," it is defined as the foundation of concepts, that is also the all-basis consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2016 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So for you Buddhamind is conditioned, therefore it is impermanent.

The presentation you provide of yogacara i really dont agree with. Try sourcing from Asanga.
I didn't mention it. The sūtras maintain this is so. They also maintain that dharmakāya is jñāna. Draw your own conclusions.

Astus said:
Unconditioned knowing is not possible, unless one accepts a soul. So, the meaning is something else.
Mano-vijn̄āna is a nonconceptual consciousness, like the other five sense consciousnesses.
The mano-vijnana is the thinking mind, the one with all the thoughts and ideas, i.e. concepts. It is also the one that becomes discerning wisdom (pratyavekṣaṇājñāna / 妙觀察智). So, what you seem to be saying is that conceptuality is non-conceptual. Manas only adds the grasping at self, and a number of basic defilements.

The first mind as subjective transformer is the ālaya-vijñāna. The ālayavijñāna flawlessly retains all of our past experiences, and recognizes and contextualizes things as we cognize them. our experiences, according to their depth and significance upon our lives, are difficult to remove.
The second subjective transformer is the manas. in this case, objects of cognition are transformed by a deep attachment to the self, and the resulting tendencies to protect and further that self.
Then, already subject to these subconscious influences, the cognitive function of the thinking consciousness and the five sense consciousnesses—that is, the discrimination of things — arises.
(Tagawa Shun'ei: Living Yogacara, p 17)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2016 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Did we all fail at Dzogchen?
Content:
Boomerang said:
It's also said that practitioners of lower capacity will be reborn in pure lands. So, if we are here reading dharmawheel and not in Dewachen,

florin said:
You seem to be suggesting that the default position is that any dzogchen practitioner who is considered as having a low capacity will be reborn in pure lands.
I dont think that is the case bearing in mind that the category of low capacity has 3 subcategories the high low, middle low and the low low.

Malcolm wrote:
There are actually 21 capacities discussed in the Dzogchen tantras, only the best of the best attain rainbow body in this life. The rest are liberated in the bardo, and the last four or so of the average take rebirth in nirmanakāya buddhafields, or at worst, places where they can meet Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2016 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Amoxicillan does not generate profound life-transforming experiences for people, entheogens do, regularly.

Sherab Dorje said:
I would say that being saved from death via some, now that Amoxcillin exists, insignificant infection is pretty bloody profound and life-transforming!

Malcolm wrote:
But it really does not change people's outlook in a profound way. It just doesn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2016 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
MiphamFan said:
Malcolm, what about the time you quoted Rongzom saying the factors for the first Dhyana are necessary for Dzogchen and sadhana practice helps achieve it?

Malcolm wrote:
He said that these five factors are necessary for those who do not understand Dzogchen, and need to practice gradually maintaining an intellectual view of Dzogchen. He also said it does not matter whether you practice sūtra style śamatha or sadhana practice, and not to be biased either way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2016 at 1:23 AM
Title: Re: Is meditational absorption (jhana, dhyana) possible or not?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We have already seen that dharmakāya is defined as the buddha's jñāna, his pristine consciousness, which is characterized by the twin omniscience.

Astus said:
You also mentioned before that the dharmakaya is unconditioned.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't mention it. The sūtras maintain this is so. They also maintain that dharmakāya is jñāna. Draw your own conclusions.



Astus said:
Which mind? Certainly not the eight consciousnesses. For example, which mind among the eight consciousnesses is operative in the realization of emptiness?
Realisation of emptiness is the elimination of the wrong concept of essence. That ignorance is removed from the mind (the 8th in the 8 consciousnesses system) by correct discernment (of the 6th).

Malcolm wrote:
No. Mano-vijn̄āna is a nonconceptual consciousness, like the other five sense consciousnesses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2016 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Zen Language
Content:


Johnny Dangerous said:
That's interesting Astus. On a related note, what is the sort of cultural history of Zen poetry involving depictions of the natural world?

Malcolm wrote:
It has it origins in Song dynasty neo-confucian literati. All of the so called "Zen arts" are really Confucian arts, the skills cultivated by educated Chinese gentleman, calligraphy, archery, etc.

Queequeg said:
But they've been recast by literati who also internalized Dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
The forms and conventions are all neo-confucian, and indeed, Japan, by the time we think of the "Zen Arts" coming into play had ceased being a "Buddhist" country and had adopted Neo-confucianism as the main intellectual culture, because it served better to bolster the military and the ruling class.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2016 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:
Ayu said:
Anyway, my main interest was on this question:



Can anybody supply this thread with quotes from lamas about hallucinogenic drugs? Didn't even Chögyam Trungpa discourage his students to take it?

Malcolm wrote:
Trungpa tripped with his students, fairly often.

Ayu said:
Okay, and what did he say exactly about it?
(I give up, if nobody wants to answer.)

Malcolm wrote:
It is said that he described LSD as a double samsara, but he used it often enough that I suspect this was a quip, and not his real point of view. It was a tool, he used it to help students get past blocks and barriers they were having on the path. You can read about this in various bios and personal accounts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2016 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
It seems to me you are trying establish a causal relationship where none exists.  For every hippy that took LSD and decided to dabble in Dharma there are countless of Buddhist practitioners that never even toked on a joint in their life.

Malcolm wrote:
I have met very few of them.

Sherab Dorje said:
I would dare to say that the LSD to (somewhat serious) Dharma practice phenomenon would be so insignificant that it would make it statistically completely and utterly irrelevant.

Malcolm wrote:
You have apparently never spent much time in the US.


Sherab Dorje said:
Yes, some hippies did go on to practice Dharma after taking LSD, many-many-many more did not.

Malcolm wrote:
My point was that in my generation, the vast majority of people who tuned in Dharma, first tuned into LSD.


Sherab Dorje said:
Amoxicillin has also proved effective in fighting many infections, but nobody seems to be trying to build a religious cult around it,

Malcolm wrote:
Amoxicillan does not generate profound life-transforming experiences for people, entheogens do, regularly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 29th, 2016 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: AYAHUASCA
Content:
Ayu said:
Anyway, my main interest was on this question:

Karma Dorje said:
... As he alludes, and as Ivo has mentioned, some lamas are supportive of such exploration so it really is between guru and student. ...

Ayu said:
I was browsing this thread but didn't find any genuine source for "lamas who are supportive" for the use of Ayahuasca. Who? And what kind of support? Do they encourage taking hallucinogens? ....
Can anybody supply this thread with quotes from lamas about hallucinogenic drugs? Didn't even Chögyam Trungpa discourage his students to take it?

Malcolm wrote:
Trungpa tripped with his students, fairly often.


