﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:


bryandavis said:
This kind of thing can happen even in a very traditinal setting. I feel by me sharing this I am able to let a bit off my chest so to speak, since I was in the retreat. As well just put it out there that a long term retreat is a serious decesion and when entering one you really have to be a very stable person all ready ( that should be obvious but it shocking how it is not )

...

These things need serious reflection before entering. They need concerned, compassionat, caring helpers and assistants along the way. And they need reality checks when things flare up. Maybe for at least the lay practioners a mental health screening would have been helpful in my situation! There is so much shit that comes up being alone with one self, as Malcom pointed out with the axe example!

Reintegrating after that much time is diffiuclt. Reinegrating after psychological dissapointments is even more challenging. Not letting your “spiritual” world get complely crushed and being able to maintain the veiw though out insance circumstances is greater still.

Anyhow, sorry if there was not much point in all that, I just wanted to share and say it can happen anywhere, even in a seemingly perfect traditional situation.

Bryan.

Malcolm wrote:
Sharp weapons are generally not permitted within a retreat precinct because things like the following happen: when my teacher, Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje, was nearly done with his first three year retreat, he had what is called a "chod nyams", a chod experience where he saw his leg as a huge side of meat. So he took a knife he had brought with him into the retreat, and cut a huge chunk of his leg out for his ganapuja. The next morning his attendant found him lying in a pool of blood, nearly dead. His retreat master told him that he could not leave, but anyhow they brought a doctor, patched up his leg, and he remained in the retreat. Now, you have to understand that the Throma retreat manual specifically forbids bringing anything sharp with you into the retreat.

My point is that retreats are serious business and a lot of things can go wrong, and do go wrong. Luckily my experience was pretty peaceful, but then I did my retreat alone without companions, so it was not complicated by the presence of others.

I don't think any knowledgable person here imagines that what happened at DM is impossible in other situations. I remember hearing that in one three year retreat in the US, a very disturbed woman tried to burn down the house the the retreat was being held in, back in the '80's.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:36 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Minjeay said:
I really don't get why things like these seem to be so hard to understand for persons who talk a lot about religion, and buddhism, while learning what wholesome acts are, and what non-wholesome deeds are, is one of the basic teachings you can even find in Theravada buddhism, though in this system they don't put emphasis on those teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
That is an entirely false claim.


Minjeay said:
Mahayana did build up the whole system around those teachings, and still when negative things happen you will see most buddhists just stand besides someone being raped and just debating about the karma of the persons involved.

Malcolm wrote:
That is an entirely false claim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:34 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
I have preferred to use Buddhist logic to question a Buddhist belief.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhist logic only works if you accept the parameters of Buddhist logic. I think you need to study Dignaga and Dharmakirti a little more thoroughly before you can say you were using "Buddhist" logic to question a Buddhist tenet.

So what are the parameters of Buddhist logic, or "pramāṇa"? They are that there are three valid forms of authority: direct perception, inference, and testimony of special witnesses, such as the Buddha.

Dharmakirti's entire project is to prove that Buddha is a special witness, without recourse to sūtras and so on. If one can show that indeed the Buddha is a special witness, then it follows that one can heed what the Buddha says without reservation. You should get Jackson's book "Is Enlightenment Possible" which deals with this very issue, and includes a logical defense of rebirth.

As far as I can tell, you do not regard the Buddha as a special witness, and consider him to be an ordinary man, just like anyone else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:26 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The point is that the Buddha is merely telling people if they practice the four immeasurable, love, compassion, etc., it is good for them. But he never says anywhere they are sufficient for liberation.

dzogchungpa said:
If memory serves, Gombrich, in "What the Buddha Thought", attempts to demonstrate that the Buddha did indeed view them as sufficient for liberation. Just sayin'.

Edit:
I think this is basically his argument:
http://www.ocbs.org/images/documents/gonda.pdf

Malcolm wrote:
Basically his argument is extremely thin in the face of traditional Buddhist exegesis which flatly denies that the four brahma-viharas lead to nirvana. Dharmakirit is one such author, Gombrich mentions another on the first page of his rather diffuse and not to the point treatment, Bhikku Bodhi.

You can follow non-Buddhist scholars exegetical treatment of Buddhist concepts if you like, I will continue to prioritize how they were understood within the tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:18 PM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Indrajala said:
there are real strategic reasons for China's inability to grant freedom to the Tibetans. The welfare of over a billion people rest on these strategic concerns being addressed.

Malcolm wrote:
Therefore, you are pro-China and anti-Tibet. Case closed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 10:44 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
smcj said:
They seem not to understand that Dharma is not a pick and choose sort of thing. It is not a supermarket of ideas in which one can shop and take home and create one's own recipe.
Once again we disagree. Of course they are allowed their own recipe, however they then take responsibility for how the pudding tastes. And as they say, the proof is in the taste of the pudding.

But beyond that, people evolve. I personally have seen your online presence change greatly over the years. If Dharma really is a multi lifetime project then people have to pick up where their predecessor left off. You can't demand everyone's karma have the same starting point, or disallow them their own progress.




Johnny Dangerous said:
P.S.:

This thread is somewhat confusing, as I specifically remember Malcolm arguing passionately (and convincingly, IMO) not that long ago for Steven Batchelor's right to be called "A Buddhist" -care to comment Malcolm? Has your opinion changed, or am I missing some nuance or qualifier here?

Personally, I don't fig "Dharma Lite" much, and I think the Buddhist worldview with Karma and Rebirth removed turns nonsensical for the most part..however I don't think believing this way makes someone "not a Buddhist" at all - we should respect people's evolution somewhat I think - as SMCJ says . Wherever I might want to pick apart their worldview, I have "secular Buddhist" friends who certainly walk the walk in the way the live, and have been greatly helped by their "incomplete" version of Dharma.

On the other hand, I DO question materialist-leaners who spend  a lot of effort trying to prove the Buddha did actually mean what he said..and I assume that is maybe part of the tension in this thread, and with this subject in general, which let's face it..is ubiquitous.

Malcolm wrote:
People can all themselves anything. That is not the point. Someone can call themselves a buddhist and yet enunciate views that are  not consistent with whta the Buddha taught.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:54 AM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:
conebeckham said:
You know, I know plenty of folks who have completed 3 year retreats, both here in the West, and in Asia.  None of them were even close to as extreme as this situation with Ian and Christie.  That this sort of thing happened at all, has to be laid at the feet of those responsible, and those responsible need to take responsibility.  GMR clearly bears a part of this burden, I feel.  He has not taken responsibility for this.  Frankly, neither has Christie, and I am afraid that is because she has been damaged.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, kicking delusional people out of a retreat without first getting them some professional counseling was definitely a huge and tragic error. Had the DM board taken a gentler approach, this may never have happened. They could have been told they should be in separate retreat cabins and seen now that worked out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:51 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Samaññaphala Sutta in fact talks explicitly about recollection of past lives as being such a fruit...

Wayfarer said:
Right, I concede that...it was a poor choice on my part. However there are places where the visible benefits of 'the fruit of practice' are discussed. It always seems to me to be a better approach to those who have reservations about 'the next life' to approach it in those terms.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, for those people who find it difficult to commit to a path, I would never actually say "You do not believe in rebirth, so you cannot attend this or that teaching". What I say is "Suspend judgement about rebirth for now, and see if Buddhist practice is helping you transform and change."

But here we are not talking to such people. Here we are talking to people, mainly one person, who is intent on promulgating physicalism as correct view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


Vajrasvapna said:
I made no assertion of personal realization, just expressed my opinions on Buddhist philosophy, if you disagree, fine. I believe that Buddhism is a tradition of reason, as is attributed to Buddha himself: ‘You don’t have to believe what I say with blind faith.’

Malcolm wrote:
Of course Buddhism is a tradition of reason. We do not accept things merely on blind faith. On the other hand, we also accept śabda pramāṇa, which mean that once we have accepted the Buddha as an authority, we now can accept what he says in the sūtras as being true. Prior to accepting the Buddha actually shows the way to nirvana, of course one can be skeptical.


Vajrasvapna said:
"There is only one cause to all diseases
it is the ignorance
That does not realize selflessness.

Like a bird flying in the sky
is not separated from its shadow,
Sentient beings, even when living in happiness
Are never separated from disease because of ignorance.

Ignorance produces attachment, hatred
And closed-mindedness
The three mental poisons are the particular cause
That manifests wind, bile and phlegm humors.

Malcolm wrote:
As a doctor of Tibetan Medicine [Shang Shung, 2009], I can tell you that when patients ask me to explain the three humors to them, and they are Buddhist, then of course I explain to them that the ultimate cause of their illness is the knowledge obscuration of self-grasping, which in turn produces the three afflictions, which in turn produces the three humors. Why? Because they can then understand that also their practice can help alleviate their disease. Reduction of bile diseases comes from reducing anger, etc. It really works.

Vajrasvapna said:
This is why I consider using karma to accuse someone

Malcolm wrote:
Whoever suggested that?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:37 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
tobes said:
There is little that is coherent, settled or unified in all of that - it is a terrible and fallacious endeavor to reify all of that contestation into either a crass ontological materialism or a metaphysical realism or some bizarre and unfounded version of both - which either defeats or is defeated by 'the dharma'.

Malcolm wrote:
One thing that there can be no doubt about; people who are interested in Buddhism often cannot reconcile the ideological underpinnings of logical positivism, the bedrock of scientism, with Dharma. That is the point. Therefore, they seek to discard keystone Dharma tenets which they feel are not relevant to them (Andrew108 illustrates this for us perfectly), whilst maintaining whatever they are interested in: meditation, etc. They seem not to understand that Dharma is not a pick and choose sort of thing. It is not a supermarket of ideas in which one can shop and take home and create one's own recipe.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:30 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Wayfarer said:
That passage I quoted from the Kalama Sutta, is also elaborated in the Samaññaphala Sutta, which deals with the 'fruits of the contemplative life visible in the here-and-now'.

I am trying to take a middle path approach. The middle path is neither believing nor disbelieving, but suspension of judgement. That suspension of judgement is quite a hard discipline in its own right. If you lived in such a way that your mind didn't jump to conclusions or reach judgements about things that were not apparent, it would be quite a different kind of life.


Malcolm wrote:
Incidentally, in this text, it is the agnostic position the Buddha finds the most worthy of criticism:

"When this was said, Sañjaya Belatthaputta said to me, 'If you ask me if there exists another world [after death], if I thought that there exists another world, would I declare that to you? I don't think so. I don't think in that way. I don't think otherwise. I don't think not. I don't think not not. If you asked me if there isn't another world... both is and isn't... neither is nor isn't... if there are beings who transmigrate... if there aren't... both are and aren't... neither are nor aren't... if the Tathagata exists after death... doesn't... both... neither exists nor doesn't exist after death, would I declare that to you? I don't think so. I don't think in that way. I don't think otherwise. I don't think not. I don't think not not.'

"Thus, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Sañjaya Belatthaputta answered with evasion. Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango: In the same way, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Sañjaya Belatthaputta answered with evasion. The thought occurred to me: 'This — among these brahmans and contemplatives — is the most foolish and confused of all. How can he, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, answer with evasion?'


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 7:26 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Wayfarer said:
That passage I quoted from the Kalama Sutta, is also elaborated in the Samaññaphala Sutta, which deals with the 'fruits of the contemplative life visible in the here-and-now'.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sorry but I must disagree. The Samaññaphala Sutta in fact talks explicitly about recollection of past lives as being such a fruit:

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing"

But it never says "if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble." The passage simply does not exist in that text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
dharmagoat said:
If there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.
It would seem that it is those who believe in rebirth that have the problem.

As I have long suspected, Buddhist belief can be a curse.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that the Buddha is merely telling people if they practice the four immeasurable, love, compassion, etc., it is good for them. But he never says anywhere they are sufficient for liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 6:39 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Wayfarer said:
The point I am trying to make here is regarding whether you're required to believe in the phenomenon of re-birth in order to consider yourself Buddhist. Belief in rebirth is a very controversial question, as I have pointed out before -  it is taboo in Western culture, on religious and scientific grounds. But it has always been controversial to some people.  That is why I referred to the passage above, 'if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' That kind of proviso is found in many places in early Buddhist texts.  So I am saying, I think you can live according to Buddhist principles, and realize the benefits of them, without necessarily accepting beliefs about re-birth, or at the very least suspending judgement about it.

Malcolm wrote:
Many texts? How many? I don't think so. That text is merely teaching the four brahmaviharas to non-Buddhists because whether they believe in rebirth or not, the practice of the same leads to birth in higher realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 6:35 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Wayfarer said:
Well, I part company there. 'Having to believe certain things' is what made me leave the Christian church.  And I say that, even though I accept the reality of Samsara.

My advice to the sceptic would be: to observe the principles and the discipline that Buddhism entails and to keep an open mind. 'Keeping an open mind' does not require 'theorizing about the ultimate nature of things' or speculating on alternative explanations of Buddhist philosophy based on science. It's a lot more basic, in my view.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of forcing people to believe this or that. But there are certain understandings that it is crucial to have if one wishes to make progress in Dharma practice. Rebirth is one of those understandings. Why? Because the whole point of Buddha's teaching was free people from samsara. What is samsara? The http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.003.than.html explains it beautifully:

From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.

For those who have it, the Anamattaggasaṃyutta is indispensible reading.

" The heap of bones one person leaves behind
with the passing of a single aeon, 
would form a heap as high as a mountain,
so said the Great Sage.
This is declared to be as massive
as the tall Vepulla Mountain
standing north of Vulture's Peak
in the Magadhan mountain range. 

"But when one sees with correct wisdom
the truths of the noble ones —
suffering and its origin, 
the overcoming of suffering, 
and the Noble Eightfold Path, 
that leads to suffering's appeasement —
then that person, having wandered on, 
for seven more times at most 
makes an end to suffering
by destroying all the fetters."
SN 15:10

Simply put, not one can study Mainstream Buddhism seriously and not come away understanding the crucial and central role rebirth places in the Buddha's teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Wayfarer said:
I don't much like that idea that in order to practice Buddhism, certain beliefs have to be held.

Malcolm wrote:
Certain understandings need to be arrived at; without which one cannot really consider oneself well trained. Acceptance of rebirth is one of those understandings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Prasutagus said:
Following this thread for some time, and going back to Malcolm's original post from (shudder) Tricycle, I have to ask:

Why is a marriage between Buddhism and science something that's even an issue?  We're talking about two conceptual systems with radically different interests and goals.  One is to cultivate inner qualities to eliminate suffering of self and other.  The other is to understand the functioning of the physical world in its various forms.  Why this push to certify or qualify Buddhism by extruding it through a scientific lens?

Also, it's interesting that the original (shudder) Tricycle article was about Buddhism offering a correction to the scientific materialism of modern science.... while ironically, much of this thread has been a defense of Buddhist world view against materialistic critiques.

In the end, these are both conceptual constructs-- Buddhism and science.  We really don't need to be overly rigid about either them, and allow some space between them.  In the Buddhist philosophical tradition one traditionally interpolates between various different tenet systems, again, without any drama.  That flexibility is possible here as well.  There's really no reason to shoot down Buddhism for what science finds, for science for what Buddhism finds.  We can be a little pliant, committing to a world view that says something contrary to what scientists might claim, simply for its spiritual efficacy.  We can also be a little pliant ignoring what the abhidharma says about cosmology when looking at NASA pics of Iapetus.

Malcolm wrote:
You know, we do not need to abandon the Meru cosmology system in toto at all. In reality, even Ptolemy called people who lived north of Pamirs "Kurus". Despite the fact that Vasubandhu's presentation reached a highly formalized picture of the world. In reality, the main outline in the Meru cosmology can be understood as reasonable when it is understood that four continent Meru cosmology actually roughly maps to the known continents from an India centric point of view, taking India as Jambudvipa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Because as Malcolm points out, you can't be flexible with the dharma. You have to submit to it. That's the basic point he is making. Submission is the name of the game. Many Western practitioners forget how important that is.

Malcolm wrote:
If you want to get anywhere with Dharma, you must fit your life into the Dharma. You cannot fit the Dharma into your life. It simply does not work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 5:35 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:


Indrajala said:
If you have a better solution I'm all ears.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the Tibetans should continue to resist, just as the Vietnamese did, until the Chinese are finally driven out of their lands.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Right, your solution is that Tibetans should just forget they had a country, Tibet,; a language, Tibetan; and a religion, Buddhism.

Indrajala said:
The Jews never forgot they once had Israel, nor did they lose their religion or heritage.

Malcolm wrote:
The last point is not true. Jewish people have had their heritage stripped from them time and time again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 5:22 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
kirtu said:
So the plan is cultural genocide.  And you are seemingly acting as an apologist for this.

Kirt

Indrajala said:
Seemingly to you, but this not what I am doing.

I'm recognizing the reality and suggesting an alternative approach to what is generally presently advocated.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, your solution is that Tibetans should just forget they had a country, Tibet,; a language, Tibetan; and a religion, Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am well aware of Chinese expansionist history. But it will never happen that Tibetans will ever identify as "Chinese citizens".

Indrajala said:
Even if that turns out to be true, the majority Han Chinese born and raised on the plateau will call themselves Chinese citizens from Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
No they won't. The Han on the plateau hate living there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As to the first point-- that will never happen.

Indrajala said:
Perhaps you are unaware of Chinese expansionist history. The peoples living in what is now Fujian for example used to be seen as barbarians and they themselves did not identify with Chinese civilization. However, the southward expansion of Chinese states eventually saw to their forced assimilation over time. Now almost everyone in Fujian would identify as a Zhongguoren 中國人. The same can be said of places like Harbin in the northeast.

Malcolm wrote:
I am well aware of Chinese expansionist history. But it will never happen that Tibetans will ever identify as "Chinese citizens". Unlike you, I have talked to highly educated young Tibetans in Tibet. They understand perfectly the situation they are in, and they will never give in. You simply don't understand Tibetans nor Tibetan culture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All of the problems in the world today have but a single cause, lack of virtue. One cannot hope to solve the problem with a proper understanding of its causes. One cannot remedy a problem without applying an antidote consistent with the condition.

Indrajala said:
You said yourself you can't fix saṃsāra.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, one cannot fix samsara, but this does not mean that one must be a coward.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, what they have is virtue on their side.

Indrajala said:
And is that triumphant idealism supposed to just give hope or actually solve the problem?

Malcolm wrote:
All of the problems in the world today have but a single cause, lack of virtue. One cannot hope to solve the problem with a proper understanding of its causes. One cannot remedy a problem without applying an antidote consistent with the condition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


anjali said:
This raises a question I'm curious about: if one doesn't believe in rebirth, just how far can one go on the Path?

Presumably since one doesn't have Right View, then one can't follow the Path to fruition. Yet, I'm curious what specific obstacles will arise along the way preventing one from successfully following the Path to completion? For example, would lack of belief in rebirth naturally preclude one from having successful direct introduction (in the Mahamudra/Dzogchen traditions)?  Or, in the Zen tradition, would it prevent one from successfully seeing one's original face? Or, would it naturally prevent one from developing boundless compassion? Or...? (FYI, I'm fully in the rebirth camp, although that has no relevance to my question.)

Malcolm wrote:
What ChNN says about this issue in Crystal is that those who do not believe in rebirth can relax a little bit in this life; while those who do believe in rebirth can progress to total liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What isn't working is China's oppression of Tibetans.

Indrajala said:
Really? The Tibetans don't got guns anymore, or commando training from the CIA.

Malcolm wrote:
No, what they have is virtue on their side.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
LastLegend said:
4) A ship, in honour of the professor on Gilligan's Island let us call it "The Minnow", is in continual use. But each night a few parts are secretly removed and replaced by identical ones. The original removed parts are secretly reconstructed. Over the years, The Minnow continues to sail and have its license renewed.  After 3 years the boat is entirely reconstructed, and the two identical ships are docked next to each other. Which one is The Minnow?  (those who know their Plato will recognize this last one as Theseus's paradox)

I don't know what this all about. But one of them is The Minnow because it's named Minnow.

conebeckham said:
Spurious argument.  Everyone know the Minnow had been lost.  The Minnow had been lost.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so, the Minnow was not lost, but rather, beached.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 3:14 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Indrajala said:
False comparisons. The PRC does not plan to systematically kill off the Tibetans. They plan to assimilate them and make them self-identify as Chinese citizens, just as many Mongolians, Manchurians and so on came to do.

Does anyone believe the present approach to the Tibetan issue is actually working or will work?

Malcolm wrote:
As to the first point-- that will never happen.

What isn't working is China's oppression of Tibetans.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Indrajala said:
If bending a knee to an authoritarian government saves more lives than doing otherwise, how can you argue it is wrong if you support non-violence?

Malcolm wrote:
This appeasement approach resulted in the Holocaust, that's why.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Indrajala said:
What I wrote above wouldn't be out of place on a politics forum.

Malcolm wrote:
This isn't a politics forum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Indrajala said:
Clearly this passive-aggressive approach isn't working and never has. It only lends political will to more aggressive measures and attempts at sinicization of Tibetans. One option on the table for the Chinese is to try and make all the Tibetan children into Mandarin speaking self-identifying Chinese citizens. It would solve their problem in Tibet regardless of how the rest of the world would see it (and let's be realistic nobody would give enough damn to do anything about it as business would carry on as usual).

Malcolm wrote:
Ummm...you cannot get an education inside Tibet in Tibetan anywhere BUT the monasteries. Why do you think the Chinese are cracking down so hard on Tibetan Buddhism?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 2:04 AM
Title: Re: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan m
Content:
Indrajala said:
Trying to fight them as a subjugated people with passive aggressive acts like self-immolation just provokes them, no matter how such acts can be morally justified. It really accomplishes nothing and makes the situation worse.

Malcolm wrote:
If you were in their shoes you would feel differently.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
pensum said:
as i mentioned in my earlier post i can't even figure out what you guys and gals are arguing about. .

Malcolm wrote:
Any discussion of so called secular or modernist "Buddhism" quickly degenerates into a discussion about rebirth, and usually only rebirth. Why? Because rebirth is not falsifiable by any means accessible for ordinary persons who have not developed sufficient skills. It is instructive to read the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel390.html. Here we discover the Buddha talking about his own rebirth, how others take rebirth after their bodies break up and so on.

What is interesting about the second one, is that it is a response to a disciple, the famed Sunakṣatra [ legs pa'i skar ma ] who claimed:

Now on that occasion Sunakkhatta, son of the Licchavis, had recently left this Dhamma and Discipline.[1] He was making this statement before the Vesali assembly: "The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.[2] The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him, and when he teaches the Dhamma to anyone, it leads him when he practices it to the complete destruction of suffering."

The Buddha clearly criticizes the idea that he, the Buddha, hammered the path with logic, that is was not born of true insight. This of course is one of the reason's why I find the constant appeal of physicalists like Andrew and so on so pale. For them, everything must be "logical". But the Buddha states:

when I know and see thus, should anyone say of me: 'The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him' — unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as (surely as if he had been) carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.

In other words, by impugning the Buddha's knowledge born of concentration and insight, it does not turn out well for the person who does not abandon such views.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
It is very difficult to know that "as long as "I" am bound by affliction, then "I" conventionally speaking, will take rebirth."  It's difficult because in many ways your belief comes before experience. You can't know it because you already believe in it. And that is added to the other points of the debate that we have been having.

Malcolm wrote:
I accept śabdapramāṇa explicitly, the Buddha's śabda in particular, as it proper, for example, the Pubbakotthaka sutta relates:

"Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction [śraddha] in others that the faculty of conviction [śraddha]... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."

Here, the Buddha is clearly stating that those of us who are not stream-entrants and so on, need to take it on faith that the five faculties and so on lead to liberation. You prefer accept the śabda of scientists. That's fine, but it is not Buddhist.

This afflictive I-making is not an intellectual belief, and it cannot be routed out through merely imagining it does not exist. It reasserts itself at every turn, at every reaction, in almost everything we do. It is the root of samsara. It cannot be eradicated through intellectual analysis and so on. The point is that for as long as one in thrall of this, for that long ones' continuum will not be liberated.
Definitely agree that it's not possible that just by imagining something not existing you make it so it doesn't exist. Conventional reality comes and shocks you out of that. But then you can't really imagine the positive of that to be true - which is something happening (like rebirth) happening because you believe that it will happen.
Honestly, I would prefer that it didn't. Then, of course, I could just pursue a worldly life, with worldly goals and motivations, and when I die, that would be it.
Again, reality tends to have the final word.
Indeed.
Buddhist Modernism or Secular Buddhism are more focused on contemplation or the inner life of being a Buddhist rather than only the doctrinal aspects.
Total nonsense. These people are concerned only with the benefits meditation practice might have for them in this life. They have no bodhicitta, how could they? They do not believe in Buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 20th, 2014 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
pensum said:
How then is this "rebirth" any different from, let alone contradictory to, any process as seen from a Western scientific perspective? As you have defined it here, any disagreement is merely due to using the term "rebirth" and could be avoided by simply using "process" or "evolution".

Malcolm wrote:
The physicalists imagine than when the brain dies, so does an "individual's" stream of consciousness.


pensum said:
1) A seed falls from a tree. The tree dies, is ground up and left to decompose. The seed is planted in the soil created by the decomposition of the tree, and a new tree grows. Is the new tree the old tree reborn?

Malcolm wrote:
No.

pensum said:
2) Two trees stand in a field, a tall one and a short one. The tall one is chopped down. When the stump is dug up, it is discovered that the roots were connected and the little one was just the offshoot of the tall one.  So, has one chopped down the original tree or merely pruned it?

Malcolm wrote:
One has chopped down the parent.

pensum said:
3) Two apples fall from the same tree. Are these two individuals or the tree itself?

Malcolm wrote:
They are all distinct individuals, each bearing their own characteristics.


pensum said:
4) A ship, in honour of the professor on Gilligan's Island let us call it "The Minnow", is in continual use. But each night a few parts are secretly removed and replaced by identical ones. The original removed parts are secretly reconstructed. Over the years, The Minnow continues to sail and have its license renewed.  After 3 years the boat is entirely reconstructed, and the two identical ships are docked next to each other. Which one is The Minnow?  (those who know their Plato will recognize this last one as Theseus's paradox)

Malcolm wrote:
The one licensed as the Minnow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 11:48 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
I'm glad to hear it. Perhaps you could describe in more detail the connection between the brain and consciousness. I will add here that for science, the actual production of consciousness is still a matter of debate. What isn't debated is the location of consciousness and therefore cognition.

Malcolm wrote:
The brain necessary for coordinating the five senses. The interaction of consciousness, sense organs and the body with its organs is nothing new.

However, the mano-indriya (the organ of mind) is clearly defined as being non-material. So there you have it.

Andrew108 said:
Liberation isn't really happening for those who take on rebirth as a belief. But if they see rebirth and DO directly in experience then why not? Although I would suggest that direct seeing of rebirth (is it possible or not) is more a result of realization than the cause of realization.

Malcolm wrote:
Rebirth is clearly possible, if you accept Buddha at his word. If you don't, well what can I say?

At first we are scared by rebirth and then later we are comforted by it. All the while we miss the main point of the teachings. That's the problem.
I don't find rebirth comforting at all. Quite the opposite. It does not scare me, I simply know that it as long as "I" am bound by affliction, then "I" conventionally speaking, will take rebirth. I.e. the continuum I now call "mine" will not have fully relinquished the innate clinging to 'I', and it will continue in samsara. An empty dharma produced by other empty dharmas.

This afflictive I-making is not an intellectual belief, and it cannot be routed out through merely imagining it does not exist. It reasserts itself at every turn, at every reaction, in almost everything we do. It is the root of samsara. It cannot be eradicated through intellectual analysis and so on. The point is that for as long as one in thrall of this, for that long ones' continuum will not be liberated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
T. Chokyi said:
I felt that is what you were doing with me although you never asked me where I stood.

Malcolm wrote:
I wasn't responding to you as person, I was responding to what was written.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, hate to disappoint, but rebirth was not a dominant belief during the time of the Buddha. This is a common misconception which comes from not carefully studying the history of Indian thought.

dharmagoat said:
Could it be described as a "common belief" then?

Nevertheless, belief in an afterlife was the norm, was it not?

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure how common it was, really. For example, the first person the Buddha  met after awakening was an Ājīvika ascetic, someone who definitely thought the Buddha had something, but since the Ajivīkas were materialist ascetics, he was not really interested in Buddha's teachings. On a side note, in the Ashokāvadana, Ashoka is portrayed as ordering the executions of 18,000 Ajivīkas because he saw a portrait of the Buddha which cast him in a negative light.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 10:16 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
dharmagoat said:
Unfortunately it is necessary to accept rebirth in order to follow the Dharma as taught by the Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
Presumably that is the one we want to follow, no?


dharmagoat said:
The Dharma as taught in the time of the Buddha, that is. When reincarnation was the predominant belief.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, hate to disappoint, but rebirth was not a dominant belief during the time of the Buddha, it was but one among many beliefs. This is a common misconception which comes from not carefully studying the history of Indian thought.

For example, many brahmins did not believe in rebirth. They performed rituals in order ensure _worldly_ happiness and success by making proper sacrifices and so on. It is not clear at all that rebirth is part of early Vedic religion.

Here is the cliff notes version:

The origin and development of the belief in transmigration of souls are very obscure. A few passages suggest that this doctrine was known even in the days of the Rigveda, and the Brahmanas often refer to doctrines of re-death and rebirth, but it was first clearly propounded in the earliest Upanishad—the Brihadaranyka. There it is stated that the soul of a Vedic sacrificer returns to earth and is reborn in human or animal form. This doctrine of samsara (reincarnation) is attributed to the sage Uddalaka Aruni, who is said to have learned it from a Kshatriya chief. In the same text, the doctrine of karma (“actions”), according to which the soul achieves a happy or unhappy rebirth according to its works in the previous life, occurs for the first time and is attributed to the theologian Yajnavalkya. Both doctrines seem to have been new, circulating among small groups of ascetics who were disinclined to make them public, perhaps for fear of the orthodox priests. These doctrines must have spread rapidly, for they appear in the later Upanishads and in the earliest Buddhist and Jain scriptures.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/266312/Hinduism/59824/The-Upanishads


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
pensum said:
Then in light of the above what exactly what is "it" that is reborn, etc.? Especially in light of karma and dependent origination.

Malcolm wrote:
Read my reply to Andrew -- the aggregates of this life are serially connected with those of the next, cf, Nāgārjuna above; nevertheless, nothing transfers from this life to the next which could be described as an agent or a self. Nevertheless, there is rebirth, there is karma and the ripening of karma, all of which take place with out any substantial or real agent or actor.

pensum said:
Once that has been laid out then i might be able to sort out whether modern Western perspectives are actually all that different or not, or if the apparent disagreements are really just false assumptions from either side.

Malcolm wrote:
Don't be ridiculous -- these issues have been discussed to death on these boards, all the players here understand the terms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
T. Chokyi said:
one can't be saying someone isn't a Buddhist for example, and then that someone may say back to the one saying they aren't Buddhist, something like "I've been a Buddhist for 26 years".


Malcolm wrote:
It is quite obvious that your intention was to label me a pecha thumper. I don't care. When people say things that are clearly at odds with Buddhadharma, it is quite right to question whether they are Buddhists. When so called  "Buddhists" advocate the Carvaka materialist view, they are not Buddhists, but instead are promulgating false views. The denial of rebirth is one of the two fundamental false view the Buddha describes, it is the view of non-being. Nāgārjuna describes this view as being very pernicious in more than one place.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
T. Chokyi said:
Can you explain that experience she had? Do you care to talk about the implications of such a delog?

Andrew108 said:
Evidence is not the type of word we can use here. The implications of someone having an out of body experience and being able to see things that they are no supposed to know about poses certain logical problems. First of which is how do we see without eyes? Second is how does the information about the object travel from the object to the one perceiving the object? I would guess that light and photons have to be involved somewhere? So again how can something new be seen when there is no organ to perceive it and where there is no light doing the illuminating. The obvious answer (to me any way) is that it is seen in the 'minds eye' and that it must either be a repressed memory or a deduction that is being visualized.

I'm going to presume that you hold another view of this, so could you offer a rational explanation that can counter the explanation I have put forward?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, such a person has a mental body with all sense organs intact (manomaya-kāya), as described by the Buddha in many places.

Basically, Andrew, the reason why I question whether you are actually a Buddhist, despite your emotional allegiance to Buddhism and time put in pursuing Buddhist studies, is that your physicalist views cause you to contradict the Buddha's own words at every turn.

Instead asking us to reevaluate our beliefs in terms of how they line up with scientific theories of mind and cognition, I think it is time for you reevaluate whether you really have faith in the Buddha's teachings and whether they really serve your purpose any longer.

From everything I have seen you say, you would be happier as a Taoist, quite honestly. They have no theory of rebirth. They value naturalism and non-contrivance, they have a quasi theory of emptiness, sort of, they sort of have dependent origination, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 9:25 PM
Title: China expands new measures to directly control Tibetan monas
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Chinese authorities in Yulshul (Ch: Yushu) Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture, Qinghai Province, in the Tibetan province of Kham has begun implementing new repressive measures introduced in late 2011 to directly control and manage Buddhist religious institutions in Tibet.


http://www.tchrd.org/2014/05/china-expands-new-measures-to-directly-control-tibetan-monasteries


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


PorkChop said:
Once rebirth (and any sort of post mortem experience) is explicitly denied, bodhicitta loses a lot of its actual meaning. Not only is the multi-lifetime career of a bodhisattva rendered null and void, but so is the idea that Buddhas always continue to work tirelessly to relieve the suffering of sentient beings (a foundational tenet of Mahayana). If this one lifetime is it, you might as well be a social worker, get involved with greenpeace, or join the peace corps you'd do a lot more good.

Malcolm wrote:
It is true many people mistake compassion, which does not have the force to lead to buddhahood, with bodhicitta, the aspiration to become a buddha to benefit sentient beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
ovi said:
I'm not criticizing those who do believe in rebirth, I just don't think it's necessary in order to be a Buddhist.


Malcolm wrote:
Rebirth is necessary for understanding both the Mainstream Buddhist path as well as the Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna paths.

Frankly, if you say you don't accept rebirth, you are basically saying that you don't really accept the Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 8:28 PM
Title: Re: Death at Tibetan Buddhist meditation retreat in Arizona
Content:
Zhen Li said:
I do sometimes wonder if DM is so far gone as to be a (dangerous) cult, and what it'd be like if it was in 'communion' with mainstream Buddhism.

5heaps said:
easily one of the top 3 sanghas in the US

Malcolm wrote:
Who are the other 2?

5heaps said:
then again most centers are very low quality, so thats not hard

Malcolm wrote:
That is a pretty serious criticism. Upon what do you base it? Have you been to most of the Sanghas in the US?

5heaps said:
there are some problems, as there always are, but the caliber of people there far exceed the majority of dharma students in general.  its basically a bunch of psychologists, architects, singers, artists, bankers, scientists, business ppl, studying dharma together

Malcolm wrote:
Sounds like any number of Sanghas in the US, not only three. Pride is fine, arrogance, well...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 8:12 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The main point is that rebirth, dependent origination and karma are keystone doctrines of the Dharma, and need to be understood in that respect.

Andrew108 said:
Yes this is the main point that you want to make. But you haven't really established logically why a literal interpretation of rebirth is valid.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure I have -- the Buddha taught literally. Anyone who spends even a little bit of time with Buddhist texts can hardly dispute that literal rebirth is a central concern of the Buddha's.

Andrew108 said:
1. You said that rebirth happens because of alayavijnana - afflicted consciousness acts as a store. You then said everyone accepts this. Not everyone accepts that there is alayavijnana not even conventionally. Prasangika for one does not accept alayavijnana.

Malcolm wrote:
Gelugpa Prasangikas do not accept the ālayavijñāna, however Candrakirti does. Jayananda, the Indian Pandita who translated the Madhyamakavatara with Batsap into Tibetan explains in his commentary on the MAV, that ālayavijñāna is a name for consciousness which has emptiness, i.e. the ālaya, as its object. Further I already explained to you what Candrakirti holds to take rebirth, the habit of I-making. Eliminate the knowledge obscuration of the habit of I-making, all birth in samsara ceases. Even tenth stage bodhisattvas have a subtle knowledge obscuration of self-grasping, while being Buddhas in practically every other respect.

Andrew108 said:
2. You cannot explain how it is that consciousness creates another moment of consciousness to the extent that consciousness can 'exist' or at least be functional when there is no physical support or external object. You would have to assert continuity. If you assert continuity then you are asserting some kind of essence - or at least something acting as an essence.

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna writes in the Pratītyasamutpadahridaya
Although the aggregates are serially connected,
the wise are to comprehend nothing has transfers
As to consciousness being "non-functional" when there is no physical senses or objects -- I agree, without physical senses, even all the traces stored in the ālayavijñāna will remain unripened. For example, four kinds of formless realm beings only have a single concept during their entire lives, i.e. the concept of "everything is consciousness", etc. They cannot have any other concept since they have no sensory input at all. However, their lifespan, lasting hundreds of millions of years is supported on karma, merit and jivendriya, the organ of lifeforce.

Andrew108 said:
3. The brain is more important than you take it to be. When the brain has problems it seems consciousness also has problems. If there were some underlying consciousness then you wonder how all of these problems like memory loss could occur? When someone's conscious experience is effected there can be seen corresponding damage within the brain. Strong logic that the brain and consciousness are intimately linked. Nearly all philosophers today accept consciousness to be brain-based.

Malcolm wrote:
I never ruled out a relationship between consciousness and the brain. If you think so you are mistaken. What I don't accept that that brain produces consciousness.

Andrew108 said:
4. Nihilists 2,500 years ago were a different breed than the nihilists today. And still today teachings on rebirth have a positive value. Especially for those who would be prone to act without a care for their actions.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, the materialists of 2,500 years ago use more or less precisely the same arguments to negate rebith as materialists today. So they have not advanced that much.

Andrew108 said:
5. You don't believe in reincarnation but you do believe in rebirth. Many have taken the rebirth notion and use it to justify their bias for a transmigrating consciousness. They have also said that you can control this transmigrating consciousness and direct it. One may also use it to achieve liberation. You don't accept that though because you don't believe in a transmigrating consciousness or reincarnation.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, if you were to read back on some of my posts, you would see that I think the distinction that some try to make between reincarnation and rebirth is dubious. In English they are in fact synonymous. However, the modern convention is to treat them differently, one as a soul/atman based interpretation of migration through samsara, the other interpretation of migration in samsara absent a soul or self. As Buddhist, I think the latter is correct and the former to be mistaken.


Andrew108 said:
6. Rebirth means becoming. That is how it fits into the DO model. Thinking of it in these terms is an effective remedy for those who are prone to ignore conventional truth and to assert a kind of inertness. It is a natural law. Becoming. But we still have no logical proof that this becoming is personal to us - that we will personally continue to become again and again for as long as it takes for us to become Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
Rebirth happens at two places in the twelve links of dependent origination, it happens at the link of consciousness, and it happens at the link of birth. The links 3 — 10 are the links of this life. Becoming is everything we do in this life, which provides the karma which informs the next life. Nāgārjuna again:
The first, eighth and ninth are affliction;
The second and the tenth are action. 
Also the remaining seven are suffering.
Twelve dharmas are gathered into three.
Two arise from three.
Seven are produced from two,
That is the wheel of existence,
it is turned again and again.

Andrew108 said:
7. Middle way teachings are subtle and easily misunderstood. Understanding emptiness isn't by itself something that liberates, but on the other hand one wonders how an understanding rebirth would lead to liberation?

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna again:
All migrating beings are causes and results.
There are no sentient beings at all. 
Empty dharmas are entirely  produced 
from dharmas strictly empty; 
dharmas without a self and [not] of a self.
In other words, liberation ensues from understanding rebirth in terms of rebirth and dependent origination. Buddha's own liberation, according to the Majjihma Nikaya was brought about because he recalled more than 90,000 of his past lives, and through doing so, understood the principle of dependent origination. In the first watch, he reviewed his own past lives, in the second watch he reviewed the samsaric travails of other beings. In the third, he watch he understood dependent origination and the four noble truths, and at that point, became the Buddha. In the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.004.than.html:

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.

"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute.

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.

"This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute.

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute.

Andrew108 said:
Teachings on emptiness do contain definitive aspects that once understood in direct experience do lead to liberation - they are definitive and that is not just my point of view. Consider the following from Nagarjuna:
...
Here Nagarjuna is questioning  this assumption you have of present unenlightenment and future liberation. Future liberation here is seen as a convention since by what are beings bound?

Malcolm wrote:
I agree that rebirth is a convention. So is the attainment of Buddhahood. As Haribhadra points out, the path from beginning to end is an illusion. So what? We still have to travel it.

Andrew108 said:
Milarepa sang:
Not separating appearance and emptiness
This is mastery of the view.

Malcolm wrote:
This master became a master because of his terror of rebirth in lower realms.

Andrew108 said:
So why cling to conventional beliefs if liberation is your target?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of clinging to conventional beliefs -- it is a question of understanding that if one does not achieve liberation in this life, then due to innate I-making, etc, one will continue to take rebirth in samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness is not a unique teaching of the Buddha, Hume understood it; Hindus teach emptiness. The four nobles truths are predicated on an understanding of rebirth.

ovi said:
From my understanding, Hinduism talks about atman, I could be wrong though.

Malcolm wrote:
Some do, but Hinduism is a vast field, and there are many permutations. It is never really accurate to say "Hindus believe...."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: Receiving Empowerment: Crash Course
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Well, you had the intent to take them, you recited them in Tibetan following His Holiness, and so you took them. The refuge and the bodhisattva vows would have been just about the first thing you recited, apart from perhaps a Lama dgongs su sol....

The main point is that you received permission to practice Tara, which is what you wanted after all, no? Email me off line if you would like the sadhana to practice.

M

Motova said:
I didn't recite anything in Tibetan until the Guru Rinpoche empowerment because I simply had no idea. Luckily a friend beside me told me I should, so I tried to copy it as best as I could.

Also there were a couple of kids going back and forth to their moms and I had the pleasure of being in the middle of the that and crying babies while HHST was explaining the visualizations. And on top of that I had no idea what the syllables I had to visualize looked like in any of the empowerments....

Malcolm wrote:
Well, go to Montreal, it will all be in English there...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The proof that consciousness could be rooted in material processes can only be shown by the generation of a sentient being through means which do not involve biological reproduction.

ovi said:
How about evolution, the origin of life itself?

Malcolm wrote:
That does not support the idea that consciousness is rooted in material processes. There is no basis at all for an inference that this planet is the only planet upon which sentient beings may be found.

ovi said:
For me, the notion of rebirth does not matter; one can uphold it, deny it or neither.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that rebirth is a keystone teaching of the Buddhas. Through recollecting his past lives, according to Mainstream Buddhism, the Buddha came to understand the principle of dependent origination (which by the way was not conceived in any fashion at all related to external phenomena).

ovi said:
I consider the Kalama Sutta the charter to free inquiry and I think that whatever skillful means I use to attain liberation that is in accord with the Teaching is correct in this sense.

Malcolm wrote:
The Kalamas sutta is the most miscited text on the whole of the Pali Canon. It is not a charter for free inquiry. Not that free inquiry is forbidden in Buddhism, for it is not. But the Kalamas is not a charter for it. It principally concerns teaching the four Brahma Viharas to people who may or may not accept the principles of rebirth, dependent origination, so on and so forth.

ovi said:
Furthermore, I did bring the Dharma into discussion with suitable people, but knowing that none of them actually believe in any sort of afterlife and it would be a hindrance for them, I did not bring up the issue. Instead, I try to lead the discussion towards dependent origination, emptiness, virtues/bodhicitta and The Four Noble Truths, what truly make Buddhism unique.

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness is not a unique teaching of the Buddha, Hume understood it; Hindus teach emptiness. The four nobles truths are predicated on an understanding of rebirth.

We can understand that emptiness is not a unique teaching of the Buddha because for formless āyatana, "all is emptiness", etc.

ovi said:
Sure you can make use of rebirth, but maybe some can understand why sometimes it's useful not to.

Malcolm wrote:
The main point is that rebirth, dependent origination and karma are keystone doctrines of the Dharma, and need to be understood in that respect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 19th, 2014 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Receiving Empowerment: Crash Course
Content:


Motova said:
I had no idea what was going on.

Malcolm wrote:
BTW, no one ever has any idea what is going on in the very first initiation they take. How could they? But with time you will learn. Taking initiations is a skill acquired through repetition. The first initiation I ever received was from HHST, I had no idea what was happening, other than that I could not sit still for longer than a minute, and I really had no comprehension of what he was doing, and it was all in English.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 11:28 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
xabir said:
But you seem to be suggesting here that there is appearances and then there is the mind that cognizes those appearances?

dzogchungpa said:
I'm not an expert, but otherwise wouldn't the vedana skandha, for example, be part of the vijnana skandha?

Malcolm wrote:
Vedana skandha, like sam̃jñā skandha, is actually a mental factor (caittas). They both are named "skandha" for their special power in keeping sentient beings bound to samsara. As objects, they are part of the dharmāyatana/dhātu, along with the saṃskara skandha.


M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 11:26 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


xabir said:
But you seem to be suggesting here that there is appearances and then there is the mind that cognizes those appearances?

Malcolm wrote:
Conventionally speaking, there are outer objects and sense organs for those objects, presented in the scheme of the twelve āyatanas.

Andrew, Daverupa and so on do no accept higher Mahāyāna tenets, so it is pointless to bring them up here. They consider Mainstream Buddhism more authoritative.

We are talking about what are the minimum tenet requirements of Buddhist view. That necessarily involves privileging Mainstream Buddhist tenets, since they are shared by everyone (with qualification).

This part of the conversation is a sidetrack from the main point — the necessity for maintaining rebirth, dependent origination and karma as mutually related keystone doctrines of Buddhadharma, contra a modernist approach to Buddhism which would abandon these in favor of some sort of materialistic framework.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
But these things are not consciousness, they are experienced by consciousness.

daverupa said:
So consciousness is to be understood apart from its content? This seems to get in the way of rise-fall contemplation... e.g. dependent on sense-sphere and sense-content, sense-consciousness arises.

This is in accord with all six senses; it is the case for the All.

Malcolm wrote:
There are cittas and caittas, no? Caittas belong to the dharmāyatana/dhātu, the object of the manāyatana/manodhātu


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Receiving Empowerment: Crash Course
Content:
Motova said:
Did I receive empowerment?

Malcolm wrote:
You received the permission to practice Green Tara, a jenang. You went for refuge, you took bodhisattvas vows with one of the greatest living masters in world. Rather than being disappointed you should be rejoicing.

Even if the whole thing was in english from beginning to end, you still would not have received anything more than that. So count yourself as fortunate.

A jenang does not typically have an elaborate mandala, BTW.

Motova said:
Thanks Malcolm, I get your point. I don't like to be a cry baby, it's just not what I expected.

I had no idea what was going on. How could I have taken bodhisattva vows without even understanding I was taking them? I knew that they would be occurring during the empowerment/transmission because you mentioned so and I had the intent to take them, but when I think of taking vows I think of active participation in the moment.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you had the intent to take them, you recited them in Tibetan following His Holiness, and so you took them. The refuge and the bodhisattva vows would have been just about the first thing you recited, apart from perhaps a Lama dgongs su sol....

The main point is that you received permission to practice Tara, which is what you wanted after all, no? Email me off line if you would like the sadhana to practice.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
The fact that blind people who are blind at birth do not dream in images is well established. This is logical proof that consciousness relies on a material base to operate. So.....mental consciousness needs a brain. It's clear and logical.

Malcolm wrote:
Not even slightly. In the case of the five senses, it is generally the case that we consider that consciousness operates through them. But if your propose the brain as material basis of consciousness, just where in the brain is? The whole brain? This can't be the case because if it were, than modifying any part of the part of the brain would modify consciousness -- certainly we can stimulate mood, arousal, fear, etc., buy stimulating the brain in this way that. But these things are not consciousness, they are experienced by consciousness.

Andrew108 said:
What is also clear (to me) is that afflicted consciousness must be a 'special type' of consciousness because it doesn't have a specific physical basis. It seems that those proponents of afflicted consciousness view the preceding moment of this consciousness to give rise to subsequent later and different moments of the same consciousness. In effect it is consciousness being both the cause and the result of itself - like riding on your own shoulders. I have doubts about this - I am agnostic about this. I view this as a convention that has weak logic underpinning it. I view a literal interpretation of rebirth as being a convention and under-pinned by weak logic.

Malcolm wrote:
Now you are referring klṣṭa-manas. In fact it does not give rise to itself, but takes as its object the other six consciousnesses, according to the Yogacara model.

Andrew108 said:
There are Sutric references to this type of consciousness. I regard these references as not definitive (given the argument that I have used previously) and that belief in rebirth has historically been an important device that may have now served it's purpose (for certain types of practitioners). Although who knows?

Malcolm wrote:
Neyartha simple means "interpretable". Nitartha means "requires no interpretation". There are different uses of these terms in different context. For example, the Avatamska-sutra refers to itself as the "definitive sūtra for practice". The Akṣayamatinirdeṣa-sutra establishes that any sūtra which talks about pretty much anything other than emptiness is provisional. I agree with the latter sutra, of course. However, it does not work to say "science is based on natural laws" for that too is provisional. There are no more natural laws than there are persons, living beings, selves and so on. You cannot have it both ways. You must either stick to your proposed ultimate perspective in which there is no cessation, no arising, no going, no coming and so on, or come down to earth.

Andrew108 said:
I think if you look at a country like Thailand where belief in rebirth is the consensus you can see it both helps and hinders.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think the Buddha's teaching rebirth hinders anyone. I see it as being salutary in every respect.

Andrew108 said:
There have always been debates and contra-positions within Buddhist traditions. One might say with a certain amount of certainty that there has never been an orthodoxy. So why try to establish one?

Malcolm wrote:
There has never ever been a debate as to whether rebirth was factual or not within the Buddhist tradition until the late 20th century and now in the 21st century, when number of unconscious materialists (unconscious in the sense of being unaware of how ingrained their "scientific" materialism was) became fascinated with Buddhist meditation but could not accept rebirth due to their prior conditioning by logical positivism. For example, a fellow like Buddhadasa could never have even imagined negating rebirth without exposure to western science which occurred because the King of Siam, educated at Harvard in the 19th century, ordered the educational system in Thailand to adopt a western curriculum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Who says people born blind never dream in images?

pensum said:
Actually blind people don't dream in images. I went to a talk by Ryan Knighton who wrote a book about his experience of losing his sight and i was surprised to discover that even when a sighted person loses their sight, over time they eventually lose visual memory and the visual component of dreams as well. In fact, Ryan made the point that the blind community don't consider someone truly blind until they no longer have visual dreams. (this is his book: https://www.amazon.ca/Cockeyed-A-Memoir-Ryan-Knighton/dp/0143051857 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

dzogchungpa said:
Interestingly, I recently learned that blind people can experience phosphenes.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, this is why in Dzogchen teachings there are thogal techniques even for blind people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Who says people born blind never dream in images?

pensum said:
Actually blind people don't dream in images.

Malcolm wrote:
Never, ever?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 6:39 AM
Title: Re: Receiving Empowerment: Crash Course
Content:
Motova said:
Did I receive empowerment?

Malcolm wrote:
You received the permission to practice Green Tara, a jenang. You went for refuge, you took bodhisattvas vows with one of the greatest living masters in world. Rather than being disappointed you should be rejoicing.

Even if the whole thing was in english from beginning to end, you still would not have received anything more than that. So count yourself as fortunate.

A jenang does not typically have an elaborate mandala, BTW.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 6:34 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Matt J said:
While true, some models work better than others. For example, I would prefer the modern Western medical model over the Medieval Western 4 humors theory as the Western model appears to allow people to live longer.

Malcolm wrote:
Western medical model misses a lot that Unnani Tibb and Ayurvedic/Tibetan Medicine models don't.

In reality, I, as a physician of Tibetan Medicine, have been able to address conditions [dramatically in some instances] allopaths don't know what do about since they do not have a model to account for many conditions, so they are left untreated by allopaths.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 6:30 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
If consciousness contained seeds or habitual tendeancies or traces of any kind, then those born blind would be able to dream in images because the traces from previous lives (countless) would be pesent. But since there is no eye faculty there is no eye consciousness.  Would these blind people experience the visions in the bardo? Obviously not. What does this tell you about consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
Who says people born blind never dream in images?

When a person is in the bardo, they have mind-made body with complete faculties, so of course they would experience the visions in the bardo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Is Rebirth Unscientific?
Content:


Matt J said:
How is rebirth unscientific? For that matter, even reincarnation?

Malcolm wrote:
You have to ask those who think it is, people like Andrew108.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 18th, 2014 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Malcolm, you haven't debated. My main contention is that consciousness cannot be a stream.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it can be a stream.

Andrew108 said:
If you assert that one moment of consciousness gives rise to the next moment of consciousness

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't assert a single cause for a moment of consciousness. The rest of your refutations are therefore invalid.

Andrew108 said:
In essence what you are doing with rebirth is giving primacy to deluded consciousness by saying that that is where and what the self is and that is why rebirth happens.

Malcolm wrote:
What I am saying is that rebirth happens because a deluded consciousness apprehends a self, in line with some Madhyamakas, since Bhaviveka actually claims that consciousness is what takes rebirth. Other Madhyamakas  state that what takes rebirth is the deluded habit of I-making. In any case, no Madhyamaka negates rebirth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
T. Chokyi said:
CHNN always stresses respect...

Malcolm wrote:
He also stress respecting the teachings and not importing foreign things into them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So it is necessary consequence that a proper Buddhist view includes rebirth; people who say otherwise are quite simply deluded about what the Dharma is.

pensum said:
and yet… Being reborn in the three dimensions of existence,
All is just a name and a magical illusion
( rDo rje sems dpa' nam kha' che
ch.30, Kunjed Gyalpo, pg. 170 in Supreme Source)

Malcolm wrote:
So? This illustrates nothing contradictory at all my fundamental point, which is that as long as one is under the influence of affliction, one will continue to take rebirth in samsara, despite the fact it is a mere name and an illusion.

Moreover, there is nothing in this statement you produce which says anything even slightly different than Prajñānpāramitā in general.

Incidentally, the notion that recognizing "the nature of the mind" is adequate is really a pity. A lot of yogis crash and burn on that one. In fact, recognizing the nature of the mind is not even the path. It is the basis (khregs chod). It is upon that recognition (now we are in Dzogchen land), that one practices the path (thod rgal). And in the case of the bodhicitta text you cite, the path is the two stages, the bodhicitta texts themselves describe the result of the two stages and nothing more. Even ChNN maintains that this is so.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
oushi said:
Rebirth is something that requires understanding, not belief, because it takes place here and now through intention. Intention creates new karma, and is the result of old karma. This is the vicious circle of samsara. Some may believe that this intention can transmigrate to another body after death, but even if it doesn't, the problem and techniques used to break this cycle stays the same. If we manage to break it, and the entire old karma is burned, then there is liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no need to burn all of our old karma, so to speak. We merely need to interrupt its causes for ripening.


oushi said:
If we attack someone personally, an intention to defend will arise in him. This is not helping anyone, quite contrary, it's creating more karma. There is no understanding, learning and relief during a battle.

Malcolm wrote:
This isn't a battle, this is yet just one more illustration of how Buddhism will either be practiced as the Buddha intended, or be changed into a "non-Buddhism", by abandoning keystone teachings such as karma, rebirth, and so on.

What I have pointed out repeatedly, and few people seem to hear, is that Buddha's model of liberation was elaborated in terms of how many rebirths one would undertake in the desire and form realms before one attained nirvana upon achieving stream-entry.

This is just talking about achieving freedom. We have not even begun to talk about the Mahayāna path of attaining omniscience, but here we are, having a discussion amongst people of supposedly Mahāyāna persuasions who do not seem to have even the most basic concept of freedom in Buddhism means.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
Consciousness cannot exist without an object.

Malcolm wrote:
The Kevaddha sutta directly contradicts your thesis, as do countless numbers of Mahāyāna sutras, as well as all of the Dzogchen tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It has already, look at Rigpa, Shambhala, Dzogchen Community, etc.

Minjeay said:
Oh wey, poor, poor traditionalist buddhists.

Malcolm wrote:
I wasn't complaining, merely acknowledging a fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 8:20 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Zhen Li said:
I don't think Malcolm is claiming that the Buddha's realisation was just rebirth.
But the texts detailing his enlightenment do depict him acquiring knowledge of rebirth, along with the noble truths.
Personally, I think it's okay to admit that one doesn't know, but I don't think confident scepticism should be employed prior to fully satisfying oneself of the opponent's arguments.

pensum said:
Malcolm, Dzongsar Khyentse and others have however claimed that accepting rebirth is a necessary condition for being a Buddhist. And yet not even Dharmakirti, let alone they, can present a sound, cogent argument for rebirth or its necessity. Whereas the nature of mind is readily accessible, provable without recourse to any external agent, by its very definition fundamental and hence its realization can be said to be infallible.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem, pensum, is that awakening is not merely understanding the nature of the mind. This is more along the lines of neo-advaita, and those folks. What is necessary for awakening, as described the Buddha, is an insight into dependent origination which causes one to relinquish fetters than bind one to samsaric rebirth.

For example, when reading the http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.135.than.html, one cannot come away with anything other than the conclusion that Buddha really meant rebirth quite literally when the subject came up.

Or here, where the Buddha discusses cosmology:

"There will be a time, monks, when this world comes to an end.[32] And at that time, beings are generally reborn in the heaven of the Radiant Deities.[33] There they live, made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from themselves, traversing the skies, living in glory, and thus they remain for a very long time. When the world comes to an end, monks, these Radiant Deities rank as the highest. But even for the Radiant Deities change takes place, transformation takes place.
— http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel238.html#book-10

So it is necessary consequence that a proper Buddhist view includes rebirth; people who say otherwise are quite simply deluded about what the Dharma is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
pensum said:
for no one has yet presented consciousness independent of matter...

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha did, they are called formless realms...

pensum said:
Okay, then what is the proof for the existence of such formless realms?

Malcolm wrote:
In this case we must rely on śabda pramāṇa, the testimony of reliable witnesses, the generations of awakened people who have experienced such an "sphere" of existence through the four formless āyatanas. Why? Because such phenomena are not within the purview of those who have not developed sufficient meditative ability. The same is true of rebirth. Until you yourself attain the abhijñā of recalling past lives, you have to take it on the word of the Buddha, etc., that you have past lives.

So in this case you either accept the authority of the Buddha or you don't. There is nothing sophistic about it. You either accept that ordinary sentient beings with their ordinary powers of cognition are not capable of perceiving certain things or you don't.

In fact, the arguments of materialists that consciousness is a mere epiphenomena of brain function are quite weak and unconvincing. This is not to say that our cognitions are not moulded by our nervous system, because of course they are. That is a necessary consequence of taking a human, animal or so on body. The proof that consciousness could be rooted in material processes can only be shown by the generation of a sentient being through means which do not involve biological reproduction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 8:42 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
pensum said:
for no one has yet presented consciousness independent of matter...

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha did, they are called formless realms...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 7:30 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
pensum said:
Furthermore, because a specific material cause is cannot be pinpointed does not lead to the conclusion that there is no material cause, merely that the cause remains inconclusive, unknown or inaccessible.

Malcolm wrote:
One can make the reverse argument for consciousness "because a specific non-material cause for matter is cannot be pinpointed does not lead to the conclusion that there is no non-material cause, merely that the cause remains inconclusive, unknown or inaccessible."

Its a very vague argument.
If mind and matter arise mutally, or are coemergent, this still does not point to a material cause for mind.
It would not point to a unique cause, but still to a necessary causal factor, for in such a case without matter there would be no consciousness.
In any case, we are talking about the stream of individual consciousness.

http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes/rebirth.pdf " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 7:05 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
pensum said:
Just wondering but how does one prove conclusively that consciousness does not have a material cause?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, exactly what is the material cause of consciousness? Andrew, among others for example, seem to think it arises in from the brain.

pensum said:
Or that consciousness and matter arise mutually or are coemergent?

Malcolm wrote:
If mind and matter arise mutally, or a coemergent, this still does not point to a material cause for mind.

pensum said:
As this would require presenting consciousness without recourse to any material body or related to any physical sensation or process such as seeing, hearing, thinking. And this evidence would also need to be presented to a pure consciousness independent of any physical sense, such as sound (word), image etc. which seems a tall order.

Malcolm wrote:
Consciousness without feature,
	   without end,
	luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
	have no footing.
Here long & short
	coarse & fine
	fair & foul
	name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
	each is here brought to an end.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 5:15 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
I understand it and I am very happy with it. Since you can't prove rebirth, not even logically...

Malcolm wrote:
Of course rebirth can be proven logically once one understands how the Buddha structured the five aggregates.

It is a simple procedure:

Either consciousness has a material cause or it does not have a material cause.

If consciousness has a material cause, then there is no rebirth.

No material cause can be found for consciousness.

If consciousness does not have a material cause, it must have another kind of cause, i.e. a non-material cause. In which case the first moment of consciousness of this life must arise from the previous moment of consciousness of a past life, much as the present moment of consciousness one is experiencing now must have arisen from a previous moment of consciousness.

This is the basic logic used by Dharmakirti to refute materialists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
JKhedrup said:
God forbid we should correct anyone. After all, "Buddhism" is like a Montessori school, its not whether you are right or wrong, its how you feel when you did it...
This also points to this alarming new trend of Buddhist students never wanting to have a teacher.


Malcolm wrote:
We live in a society where people trust their peer group more than their elders.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
smcj said:
Oh I buy it alright. I'm just trying to allow for other people to practice as they please without criticism.

Malcolm wrote:
God forbid we should correct anyone. After all, "Buddhism" is like a Montessori school, its not whether you are right or wrong, its how you feel when you did it...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Prasutagus said:
I am just encountering more and more Buddhists that seem to not believe in rebirth and who also don't a problem with any of the logical ramifications of that position.  I'm curious how one does that.

Malcolm wrote:
They don't understand the ramifications of their point of view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 12:36 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
smcj said:
I still say that "I just don't buy it" is a completely fine position to take. That's a person's prerogative.

Malcolm wrote:
The question is not what a person's prerogatives are; the question is at what point do our personal biases and convictions render our "Buddhism" a "non-Buddhism?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 17th, 2014 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
The descriptions of rebirth are provisional.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are definitive, nges don, they require no interpretation.

If "provisional" means "for some people, these descriptions are not meaningful", then even buddhahood is provisional, even emptiness is provisional. The consequence of your belief is nihilism, both epistemic as well as moral.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
External object is something that is not consciousness itself. If you say that when we die, one moment of consciousness results in another moment of consciousness then you are asserting that consciousness is both cause and effect and that consciousness has potential that is self-generating, self-sustaining.

Malcolm wrote:
I do not, and no one contends that consciousness is self-generating in the manner in which you suggest here. Consciousness is reflexive and can take itself as an object, as in memory, it is also accompanied by a plethora of mental factors, each of which can function as an object for it. Consciousness can be sustained merely through conceptuality, for example, the formeless realm beings who are sustained on such ideas a "consciousness only", "Its all emptiness" etc.

Andrew108 said:
Rebirth is an important concept but what has happened is that it has been over elaborated to become an idea that suggests consciousness can move between lives supported by its own energy.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this has not been suggested at all. A given stream of consciousness has attendant factors which support it, with or without a physical body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 11:18 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
I agree with what you have written here. I am a Buddhist in every possible sense. It is only when rebirth is mentioned that I tend to take an agnostic position or actually more these days I take the position put forward by some Theravadan practitioners.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, the ones that go though lots of complicated arguments to try and prove the Buddha just didn't mean what he said on the subject.

Andrew108 said:
What I don't think is right is the pushing of an Buddhist orthodoxy (or any kind of orthodoxy) that says you have to believe in things being a certain way because if you don't then you are not a Buddhist. Or worse when posters imply that one has limited capacity because of not accepting certain things. I mean some practitioners are of the belief that natural phenomena are 'mind phenomena'. Which is their choice.

Malcolm wrote:
Dear boy, there is such a thing as "right view". The most basic element of right view is not rejecting rebirth. After all, the Buddha arrived at the doctrine of dependent origination through recalling more than 90,000 of his own past lives. He very clearly describes this in the Majjhima Nikaya. If you don't accept the Buddha at his word, who will you accept?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 9:53 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Consciousness can't exist without an external object. In the absence of perceiver and perceived what consciousness can exist? In short, consciousness cannot exist as a thing in itself and by itself.

Malcolm wrote:
What are you defining as an external object, something belonging only to the five external material dhātus (rūpa, etc.)?

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 9:49 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
ovi said:
I do think that if you reject certain parts of Buddha's teaching you abandon the teaching, but that is because if you consider the Kalama Sutta, you don't have to and if in this context you do take some things as unreasonable, you do abandon the teaching. There have been schools who have called themselves Buddhist, yet talked about true existent selves. Not abandoning the teaching has been a useful protection against degeneration for 2500 years and hopefully, it will continue to be so. If the Buddha himself said that you don't need to belief in rebirth to follow the Dharma, how can others criticize you for that?

Malcolm wrote:
The Kalamas sūtta merely extols the benefit of the four brahma viharas. The latter are not causes of liberation.

ovi said:
All it takes is to realize that Mahayana isn't only necessary to accomplish others' goals, but also your own, that of ultimate enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
There will be no ultimate awakening for someone who rejects the very foundation of Buddhist liberation, i.e., the freedom afflictive rebirth in samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 9:20 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
ovi said:
Because of that, I don't think the idea of rebirth is useful or necessary to spread the Dharma today, but I'm fine with those who make use of it. The end result is the same, liberation from suffering, realization of emptiness and attainment of full Buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
I am sorry, but the notion of rebirth is absolutely critical. Without it, the Buddhist model of liberation is completely useless and makes no sense. Emptiness, absence of self and so on can be found in Western Philosophy, so who would need Buddhism in absence of rebirth? No one, that's who.

ovi said:
If by using analytical meditation or other techniques you understand that emptiness, liberation and bodhicitta are definitely worth realizing, what is the point of lack of faith?

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhicitta is a meaningless sentiment without rebirth.


ovi said:
The only thing constantly doubting and trying to understand things in terms of your own categories and assumptions leads to is downfall.

Malcolm wrote:
Hence the necessity of rebirth in Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Sherlock said:
I don't think what I've written is neurotic.

Malcolm wrote:
In my opinion, Western students express a lot of neurotic anxiety when the term "faith" is broached.

Sherlock said:
My point is that you don't need to present sraddha/dad pa in terms of "faith" especially to modern people who might be on-the-fence.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't see much reason to cater to the neurosis of modern people.

Sherlock said:
I could be wrong, but for beginners, ChNN seems to say that the bare amount of dad pa is that you recognise that there is some value to his teachings and that you try to practise them.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, ChNN's approach is perfectly fine. But the fact is that people who get neurotic about the word faith have all kinds of faith in all kinds of things -- it is merely misguided.

As I said, faith in a mental factor, one of the five faculties.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
"When form is found not to exist, do not cling to the existance of mind!"

"When mind is cognized as existent, do not cling to the non-existance of form."

HH9K

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course, and I will add when mind is cognized a existent, do not cling to the non-existence of rebirth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Malcolm, in Dzogchen rebirth is always dgongs pa can.

Malcolm wrote:
First the term is "ldem dgong".

Second, this is not factual. This is not factual with respect the NIkaya teachings either.

For example, there are four types of liberated persons the Buddha mentions in the Agamas/NIkayas: stream entrants, once returners, never returners and arhats (such as the Buddha).
The only people who achieve total freedom in this life in these teachings are Arhats. Stream entrants must take rebith in the desire realm for seven lifetimes and so on.

In the case of Dzogchen there are three opportunities to achieve liberation:  in this life (only those with the highest capacity), in the bardo (medium down to high average) or in other buddhafields after taking rebirth there. This is all detailed in such tantras as the Rig pa rang shar and so on.

So it is not the case that rebirth is an teaching with a concealed intent. It is to be taken at face value, as the Buddha taught it in hundreds of places.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
I can dig up more quotes from Malcolm that confirm this view that there is a transmigrating consciousness. He has stated his position on this many times. You would be hard put to find a TB scholar who disagrees with the view of transmigrating consciousness. They have the Tulku system after all.

Malcolm wrote:
Andrew, you are clearly not understanding the point. There is no transmigrating consciousness, no atman, no unitary consciousness which remains the same through all time. No Tibetan Buddhist teacher maintains that there is.

There is a stream of momentary afflicted consciousnesses, i.e. one moment of consciousness exists in this life (you can even calculate how many such moments a person who lives for a hundred years will have i.e. a moment of consciousness lasts for seven nano seconds) at the moment of death, it perishes, giving rise the next moment of consciousness in the bardo, where the stream continues for some time, and then, at a certain point, another moment of consciousness 'descends into the womb" i.e. appropriates a new series.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It means that consciousness descends into the womb, in the case of human being, joining with the spermatozoon and oocyte at the moment of conception.

Andrew108 said:
I guess you will say that this is not a description by you of transmigrating consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
No. It is not.

This is a description by the Buddha of the first link of dependent origination (of this life) in the Mahānidana sūtta.

Andrew108 said:
I know the Pali cannon treats this issue differently than other traditions and again there are differences of view within those schools that hold the Pali cannon to be definitive. You can see Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's analysis of Paticcasamuppada and compare that with the descriptions of the same thing within the Tibetan schools. You might come to the conclusion (as I do) that taking a literal view of rebirth (as many do) can be a gross oversimplification.

Malcolm wrote:
The Theravada view is that one take rebirth in the next world immediately upon dying in this one without any bardo at all. Of course, then they have to go through great lengths to explain away what Buddha meant by the gandhabba, but that is their problem.

Anyway, supposedly you are a Dzogchen practitioner. You should understand then that the model of rebirth followed in Dzogchen teachings in the Sautrantika/Yogacara model, as described in the beginning of the third chapter of the Abhidharmakoshabhasyam.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 9:21 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Sherlock said:
Faith/confidence is developed through practice IMO.


Malcolm wrote:
Faith is a mental factor, as well as being the very first of the 37 adjuncts of awakening. We don't really need to bring a lot of neurotic anxiety to bear on the word. Having faith IS having confidence in something.

Faith is also one the ten positive mental factors, so if you are experiencing faith, you cannot be experiencing a negative mind. This is why people of faith, whether it be in Dharma, Krishna, or Karl Marx in general are more positive than people who have no faith at all.

Of course, when you have faith, in order for it be effective in taking you out of samsara, from the perspective of Dharma, the object is important. Having faith in a teaching is good, having faith in a teacher is better. Of course, it does not start as perfectly formed, it requires cultivation — but without faith, no path is possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 8:48 AM
Title: Re: Beginning a Ngöndro
Content:
Karma Jinpa said:
Mind if you do what?  Start another thread?  Have at it, by all means.

Does anyone here know of other texts, either classical or contemporary, that deal specifically with the Four Reminders?  Any other treatises on Ngöndro?   Feel free to mention transcripts of a certain lama's teachings --- Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche's Ngondro Commentary available thru Namse Bangdzo is particularly good if you need specifics on Karma Kagyu, now that I think about it...

Malcolm wrote:
I am in the process of translating the Sakya Ngondro commentary. It has a very extensive section on the four common preliminaries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 8:46 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
smcj said:
He is talking about the first of the five indriyas on the path. sraddha. Without sraddha, the path is impossible. In English, the first definition of faith is "complete trust or confidence in someone or something".

You need that if you are going to practice a path.
Yes, however people differ as to what may initially inspire confidence in them. For some it is history, for others it is meeting a teacher, for the next guy it is philosophy, etc. For people like us that part is completely individual karma.

Plus as one progresses there is a positive feedback loop. So there's a bit more to than just what you said.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, in order to start on the path, you need to know one clear thing, you are suffering, you want a way out and you have confidence that the path leads out of suffering. The Ratnālokasūtra states:

Faith goes before, like a mother giving birth,
producing and increasing all qualities,
removes fears, and crosses rivers,
faith shows the way to the city of bliss…

So first of all, to set out on the Buddhist path, you need faith. Until you have faith, you are not on the path in any meaningful way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 7:11 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Sherlock said:
I like how in English, ChNN usually talks about the first of the Five Faculties in terms of "interest" and "confidence" rather than faith. I don't know if it's an accurate translation, but it seems to be a good upaya. You don't necessarily have to have faith in the beginning, in him or the teaching, the fact that you are attending his retreat or watching the webcast means that you have some level of interest. As you do practice more and more you gain confidence in the teaching (and in him, although he is self-effacing and never says that).

Malcolm wrote:
He is talking about the first of the five indriyas on the path. sraddha. Without sraddha, the path is impossible. In English, the first definition of faith is " complete trust or confidence in someone or something ".

You need that if you are going to practice a path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 7:08 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Malcolm, you have talked about transmigrating consciousness many times.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you did not understand what I was saying.

Let's put it this, no consciousness transmigrated from yesterday until today, but still you have memories, and so on. You account for this continuity by imagining that consciousness is located in the brain. I don't. Therefore, for you rebirth is impossible, while for me it isn't.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The equivalent concept in Thervada would be bhavanga citta.

And no, since Madhyamakas also accept a serial continuity of consciousness.

Andrew108 said:
If we are talking about rebirth then I guess the term to use in the Theravadan context would be patisandhi. This notionis quite different from the idea of disembodied consciousness moving between births.


Malcolm wrote:
Whoever said an integral consciousness moved from one life to another? That is not consistent with what the Buddha taught.

A serial continuity of consciousness means exactly what the patisandhi concept in Theravada is talking about.

Conventionally, the Buddha often states in many suttas so and so disappears from this world, and appears in the next. But when we really dig down, we discover the real point is that there is a "rosary" of moments of conscious each one the case of the next, each one the result of the previous one.

The point is that if someone does not believe in rebirth, karma and so on, there is little point in their studying or practicing any form of Buddhism whether Theravada, Zen or Dzogchen.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 1:16 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
Ground consciousness? Don't you just love Yogachara? It's almost like you are saying that you have to be a Yogacharin to be a Buddhist. Something I would disagree with.

Malcolm wrote:
The equivalent concept in Thervada would be bhavanga citta.

And no, since Madhyamakas also accept a serial continuity of consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nope, you just have to accept that there is a stream of afflicted consciousness which continually appropriates aggregates until it is no longer afflicted.

Andrew108 said:
Ah the 7th consciousness. That which you can't really do much about. The one that stays with you until you reach level 7 on the bodhisattva scale. So that is the thing I have to believe in. O.k.


Malcolm wrote:
That would be the eighth, ālayavijñāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
. . . some Lamas like KDL would recite the empowerment mantras from the extended seven line prayer, for example. . .

dakini_boi said:
What is the "extended seven line prayer"?

Malcolm wrote:
It is the on that has the request for the four empowerments amended to it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
We are training all the time to see the self as illusory. Materialism doesn't locate a self in the material. That's a fact. But to be a genuine Buddhist I now have to believe in an afflicted self that takes rebirth.



theanarchist said:
Nope, (at least according to mahayana) you have to believe in the two truths. Relative and absolute truth, what their properties are (and are not) and how they are connected.

Andrew108 said:
There are lots of different yanas and there is always something to believe in. However the experience of not finding self is fundamental.

Malcolm wrote:
The idea that there is no innate self is not particularly Buddhist, for example, David Hume figured that out all on his own. But his notion of the absence of self is not liberative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Liberation means freedom from rebirth. Anyone who does not accept rebirth cannot seriously practice any Buddhist path since liberation in Buddhism is predicated on freedom from rebirth in samsara.

saraswati said:
Last week I heard a talk where it was said that Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche gave pith instructions to people from a variety of religious backgrounds, including Catholic monastics, and many such people experienced <...>. Thus, it seems to me that explicit belief in some important Buddhist ideas isn't totally necessarily for progress on the Buddhist path. But it may stop being able to label such people as Buddhists.


Malcolm wrote:
TUR even gave direct introduction to materialists. It's called creating positive traces so that people in future lives will have the opportunity to meet with the teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 16th, 2014 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Anyone who does not accept rebirth cannot seriously practice any Buddhist path since liberation in Buddhism is predicated on freedom from rebirth in samsara.

Andrew108 said:
So I have to believe that a conditioned 'self' gets reborn in order to be liberated from conditioned 'self'?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, you just have to accept that there is a stream of afflicted consciousness which continually appropriates aggregates until it is no longer afflicted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Liberation for them is irrelevant. Any practice that they do will necessarily be for this life.

Andrew108 said:
Of course practice has to be for this life. Why practice for later? Liberation is freedom from suffering rather than a transcendent state.

Malcolm wrote:
Liberation means freedom from rebirth. Anyone who does not accept rebirth cannot seriously practice any Buddhist path since liberation in Buddhism is predicated on freedom from rebirth in samsara.

Andrew108 said:
You need to say explicitly why I can't be a Buddhist.

Malcolm wrote:
You can be a "Buddhist", it just doesn't make much sense since you disagree with the very foundation of Buddha's teachings, i.e. serial afflicted rebirth.

Andrew108 said:
Seriously, what can you get that I can't?

Malcolm wrote:
You don't need to worry about that, its none of your concern.  As far as you are concerned given how you have defined the mind elsewhere, when you die, with the the death of your brain your cognition is extinguished, and your mind as well, .


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
pemachophel said:
Is poti lung wang something like ka-tad? Malcolm, can you explain ka-tad in terms of lung, ti, and wang?



Malcolm wrote:
Its the same.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Ordination in Mahayana
Content:
Huifeng said:
While you mention "... in Japan, say...", the Mahayana tradition also covers China.

Malcolm wrote:
And Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
ngodrup said:
I received a "Potri wang" one time in which the Lama used
a computer hard drive.

pensum said:
Ah, we forgot to mention this type earlier, so perhaps Malcolm will be so kind as to explain exactly what a guidance manual empowerment ( pod khrid dbang ) is and its purpose.

Malcolm wrote:
A poti lung dbang is part of a larger empowerment used to grant permission to read and transmit a text (usually the root text of the cycle) without having to go to the effort of actually doing so. In this case then, some Lamas like KDL would recite the empowerment mantras from the extended seven line prayer, for example, and give an abhisheka for a text in this way, in a very condensed way, he would call this the dpe dbang. He actually did this for whole collections of texts such as the Rinchen Terdzod and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 10:08 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
I think a materialist can have a keen appreciation of the value of life.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course.

Andrew108 said:
A materialist for instance has no need to reject the 4 thoughts or the principle of dependent origination. Nor do they have to disavow themselves of the view of karma. They would see the 12 links as referring to personal causality. Rebirth is a bit of a problem. At most I think I would say that I am agnostic. Reduction of kleshas is high on the agenda of a materialist who appreciates Buddhist practice.

Malcolm wrote:
Liberation for them is irrelevant. Any practice that they do will necessarily be for this life.

Andrew108 said:
Remember too that materialists have developed democratic political philosophies.

Malcolm wrote:
My critique of physicalism is confined to the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever for people who reject rebirth to consider themselves Buddhists, since of necessity they automatically the liberation which the Buddha taught.

Andrew108 said:
But anyhow when it comes to Buddhist practice, being a materialist is not a problem at all.

Malcolm wrote:
Materialists can benefit from the four brahmaviharas and a bit of shamatha. But that's about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Indrajala said:
With respect to materialism, I acknowledge that it is incompatible with the basic premises of the Buddha's teachings, though that being said I think we should be sympathetic to our contemporaries who express an interest in Buddhist philosophy yet have lingering reservations given their propensities towards materialism and/or logical positivism. Most of us are educated with materialism as the default worldview.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I feel sorry for such people, standing at the window with their nose pressed to the glass.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
JKhedrup said:
Regardless of whether one chooses a faith based or more intellectual approach, whether one is a MENSA member or a simple farmer, the guidance of a teacher is essential for a proper practice of Buddhism.

Indrajala said:
I don't think that's universally true.

Malcolm wrote:
It is universally true.


Indrajala said:
While book learning, doubt, questioning and analysis are laudable, without guidance of a teacher to use those things to bring pressure to bear on the delusions, there is a danger that Dharma becomes merely an intellectual or soteriological pursuit rather than a process of transformation.
That's an unfair assessment. You can transform yourself for the better through reading and implementing what is found in the sūtras, with or without a teacher supervising you.

Malcolm wrote:
I have never observed that this is really the case. What I have seen is a lot of autodidactic Buddhists puff themselves up with arrogance. It is a pity because their ego prevents them from connecting with an authentic practice lineage.

Indrajala said:
A lot of intellectuals...

Malcolm wrote:
...have their heads firmly planted where the sun never shines.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Varahamihira lived squarely in the six century. Vasubandu, the fourth. It is not unreasonable to understand that prior to Varahamihira there was sophisticated knowledge of math and astronomy amongst Buddhists. Calendar making is an important thing.

Indrajala said:
Again this suggests to me many Buddhists in India accepted the flat earth Mt. Meru model as literally true. They had accurate knowledge of astronomy, but not cosmography and geography.

Malcolm wrote:
The Surya Siddhanta, as well as one of Vedas, asserts it is a ball.


Indrajala said:
You say "Indian Buddhists" -- do you mean all of them?

Malcolm wrote:
From third century onward, at the very least. Secular arts did not seem to be much of a concern until well after Ashoka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
smcj said:
Or you could skip all that, open your mind, and posit the possibility that The Buddha actually saw the Truth as it pertains to the path towards enlightenment. (Unfortunately that would require that you somehow understand your way of looking at things is flawed though.) Your choice.

Indrajala said:
The problem is that we actually don't know for sure what the Buddha actually taught as the truth.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course we do, he taught that afflicted people take rebirth in samsara because of their afflictions, and provided remedies for those afflictions in the form of śila, samadhi, and prajñā so they would stop doing so.

Indrajala said:
Deference to scripture doesn't work because Buddhist scripture does not qualify as a historical witness to circa fifth century BCE Magadha. Consequently examining the chronological development of Buddhist traditions and discerning common features amongst the diverging traditions therein might be the optimal way of identifying what best represents Buddhadharma.

Malcolm wrote:
The best representation of Buddhadharma is a qualified teacher.

Indrajala said:
The faith based approach you are advocating doesn't work for everyone. If it works for you, that's fine, but understand that some prefer a more intellectually rigorous approach to their Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is the approach of forensic historians. But they don't generally practice.

Indrajala said:
Even if you say this doesn't produce realization, then what is the alternative? Tell them to just have faith and force themselves to practice something they have no faith in?

Malcolm wrote:
You can see very clearly that it doesn't produce realization. So there is no alternative.

If you don't have faith in the Buddha's teaching, your time is better spent elsewhere. That's just common sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 8:09 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj has a very excellent point, that is why it is important to distinguish the difference between the cadaver called "Buddhism", which forensic historians like Schopen, et al perform an autopsy on for a living, and Buddhadharma, the practice of transforming oneself from an afflicted person into an awakened person.

Matt J said:
This statement sounds a lot like fundamentalism to me.

smcj said:
Basically, I'm calling for an evidence based approach
An evidence based approach to what? You can amass all the evidence you want, but then all you will have is a mass of evidence. If you're going to court, that's fine. But in terms of Dharma practice, the best that you could hope for would be to have all you objections overcome and all your preconditions met. At that point, in theory, you would finally be ready to Take Refuge. Dharma is about people evolving towards realization.

Or you could skip all that, open your mind, and posit the possibility that The Buddha actually saw the Truth as it pertains to the path towards enlightenment. (Unfortunately that would require that you somehow understand your way of looking at things is flawed though.) Your choice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Malcolm you haven't given a precise location you have given a general location. So now you understand the analogy? You haven't been able to say exactly where because the heartbeat 'happens' in different places within the same organ. But you can still give the heartbeat a genral location. You know it is not happening in your big toe or just in your left ventricle.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it happens exactly when the ventricles eject their contents and that is also where.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 6:27 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That is actually my point -- the cosmologies in the Kośa and other texts which describe levels of devas and so on do not correspond with Indian math and astronomy.

Indrajala said:
What do we know about Indian math and astronomy from the era of Vasubandhu?

Malcolm wrote:
Varahamihira lived squarely in the six century. Vasubandu, the fourth. It is not unreasonable to understand that prior to Varahamihira there was sophisticated knowledge of math and astronomy amongst Buddhists. Calendar making is an important thing.


Indrajala said:
The best place where we see this is in the Kalacakra. There really very little evidence to show that Indians really took such cosmologies like those presented in the Kośa completely literally.
Your conclusions are problematic. The Kālacakra and Kośa are separated by six or seven centuries. Some Indians when the Kālacakra was composed in the first years of the eleventh century did not take the earlier Kośa model literally. How does this amount to "show that Indians really took such cosmologies like those presented in the Kośa completely literally"? This is an essentialist conclusion.

Malcolm wrote:
Huh? What I am saying here is that Kalacakra shows that Indian Buddhists did not take the Kośa cosmology literally. Calculation, which really means astronomy and calendar making, among other things, was mentioned in the Mahāyāna sūtrālaṃkara as a necessary art for a bodhisattva to learn.

Indrajala said:
If you are an Indian Buddhist astronomer, you will quickly understand that the cosmology of the Kośa is clearly untenable.
Right, but how many Indian Buddhist astronomers were around when the bulk of major Abhidharma texts were composed, such as the Kośa? Even if there were Buddhist astronomers, why would they have had any say in the writings on Mt. Meru cosmology?

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that Meru Cosmology is a moral cosmology, not a literal one. Vasubandhu even rejects the conventional existence of the hells realms in his Yogacara treatises.

Indrajala said:
Basically, I'm calling for an evidence based approach, though you've already denigrated such an approach, so perhaps this discussion will not prove fruitful.

Malcolm wrote:
It's great if you want a job as an intellectual ghoul or a ghoulish intellectual.

The only evidence based approach to Dharma that counts for a practitioner however is practice.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:
Andrew108 said:
But if I ask you where exactly in the heart is the heartbeat? Yo will struggle to give me a precise location.

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all:

Each beat of the heart involves five major stages. The first two stages, often considered together as the "ventricular filling" stage, involve the movement of blood from the atria into the ventricles. The next three stages involve the movement of blood from the ventricles to the pulmonary artery (in the case of the right ventricle) and the aorta (in the case of the left ventricle)...The fourth stage, "ventricular ejection," is when the ventricles are contracting and emptying, and the semilunar valves are open. During the fifth stage, "isovolumic relaxation time", pressure decreases, no blood enters the ventricles, the ventricles stop contracting and begin to relax, and the semilunar valves close due to the pressure of blood in the aorta.

The fourth and fifth stage is where that actual "beat" that you feel exists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Which part of the mind does pride reside in?

Malcolm wrote:
Pride is a mental factor (caitta) that arises with the mind (citta), it is not located "in" the mind. Actually it is "in" the dharmadhātu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
People have a right to challenge whatever they want. But sooner or later, when they challenge too much, they stop being buddhists and become ex-buddhists.

Indrajala said:
Some people go through phases where they don't feel like being Buddhists any longer, and maybe even announce this to everyone, but they bounce back. No big deal.

Malcolm wrote:
It depends, some people have decided that "Buddhism" is a stinking cadaver dissected in the academy by intellectual ghouls (or ghoulish intellectuals take your pick), and decide what they really are following is Buddhadharma. But of course in common dialogue, they may also use conventions like "Buddhist".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Indrajala said:
In the case of Buddhist Abhidharma, why provide such detailed numbers for measurements if they were largely structured metaphorically?

Or in the case of the Sūrya Siddhanta or other Indian astronomical texts, why provide empirically verifiable measurements for planetary diameters and distances (many of these check out as largely accurate by modern standards too)?

Malcolm wrote:
That is actually my point -- the cosmologies in the Kośa and other texts which describe levels of devas and so on do not correspond with Indian math and astronomy.

The best place where we see this is in the Kalacakra. There really very little evidence to show that Indians really took such cosmologies like those presented in the Kośa completely literally.

The cosmologies provided a moral universe, locations for rebirth. Astronomy provided a way of creating somewhat accurate calendars. If you were an Indian Buddhist astronomer, you would have quickly understand that the cosmology of the Kośa is clearly untenable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I on other hand really don't have any problem at all with the Buddha teaching about the Indra's palace on Meru, hell realms and so on. I don't see any real need to modernize Buddhism or make it "evidence" based.

Indrajala said:
I don't have any problems with traditional cosmologies and mythology either, though I accept this won't be acceptable to everyone in this era when empirical rationalism is the ideology of choice amongst leading intellectuals.

When the age of rationalism passes we'll still have our cosmologies and mythology.

Malcolm wrote:
One either has the karma to practice authentic Dharma or not. We have no need to make anything acceptable to anyone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and that is his prerogative. But he is not the boss of Tibetan Buddhism, he is just one lama.

Indrajala said:
He is also arguably the foremost representative of Tibetan Buddhism. So, his opinion does count for a lot in practice since many Buddhists and non-Buddhists alike respect his views.

Malcolm wrote:
The foremost representative of Tibetan Buddhism is one's own Guru.

He is the foremost representative of Tibetans, not necessarily of Tibetan Buddhism. That being said, I am a big fan of HHDL. But I am not so interested in his science dialogues.

Indrajala said:
Really the point is that the dialogue between scientists and Buddhists by request of the Dalai Lama is proceeding and is an interesting chapter in Buddhist history

Malcolm wrote:
It is mostly a dry hump, politics.

Indrajala said:
Really the point is that if someone wants to be more empirical in their approach to Buddhism, then it should be accepted and they have the right to challenge beliefs, especially those based on deference to texts or authorities.

Malcolm wrote:
People have a right to challenge whatever they want. But sooner or later, when they challenge too much, they stop being buddhists and become ex-buddhists.

Indrajala said:
The truth is that śabda-pramana is highly problematic now because of the new scholarship which has revealed the multifaceted development behind Buddhist scriptures. It isn't enough to just declare them buddha-vacana and leave it at that.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a problem at all. There are many kinds of Buddhavacana, direct, permitted, blessed, etc. Then of course there is the notion that whatever is well spoken and corresponds with the Dharma in general can be considered Buddhavacana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 5:38 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Norwegian said:
Indrajala,

The same person, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, rejects the cosmology chapter of the Abhidharmakosha. He doesn't reject karma, dependent origination, rebirth, and so on however.


Malcolm wrote:
Jeff is just busting my balls for telling Andrew that he is being very selective about those things he thinks to Buddha said are true and those that are false.

I on other hand really don't have any problem at all with the Buddha teaching about the Indra's palace on Meru, hell realms and so on. I don't see any real need to modernize Buddhism or make it "evidence" based.

All of these things exist within the human body, so of course they have external correlates.

I also still stand by my general contention that Indians were not that obsessed about their cosmologies, and that they were largely structured metaphorically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is a Mt. Meru and four continents. I don't reject the cosmology of ancients Budddhists in the manner in which you imagine. Their picture of the world was grounded on the world. Uttarakuru is exactly where Ptolemy and so on described the people called the Kurus as living and so on.

What I reject is the Kośa cosmology, the way things are described in the Kośa.

M

Indrajala said:
And do you believe Indra's palace was/is atop Mt. Meru?

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, why not. He has to live somewhere. Might as well be there. He certainly does not have a pad in Manhattan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 5:29 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Who cares if a bunch of worldly intellectuals takes us seriously?

Indrajala said:
Clearly figures like the Dalai Lama, who dialogues with representatives of neuroscience and seems to care about their opinions.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and that is his prerogative. But he is not the boss of Tibetan Buddhism, he is just one lama.

Quite frankly, the mind-science thing is really a dead end. Has been for years.

It is one thing to be interested in this or that, it is quite another to imagine that "evidence-based" reality is real.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Ok, you can choose to consider that version the definitive one. But I don't. I don't think the Buddha presented a definitive cosmology.

Indrajala said:
Now you're just justifying your own selective thinking about what to accept and reject with respect to what the Buddha taught.

It is pretty clear the Buddha's cosmology included Mt. Meru and the four continents. If you reject this based on modern evidence to the contrary, then admit this and concede you are selective about some aspects of the Buddha's teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a Mt. Meru and four continents. I don't reject the cosmology of ancients Budddhists in the manner in which you imagine. Their picture of the world was grounded on the world. Uttarakuru is exactly where Ptolemy and so on described the people called the Kurus as living and so on.

What I reject is the Kośa cosmology, the way things are described in the Kośa.


M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 5:23 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Indrajala said:
Nowadays in both science and the humanities we have to rely almost exclusively on evidence based approaches otherwise few intellectuals will take us seriously. The revealed testimonies of mystics just doesn't cut it for modern thinkers.

Malcolm wrote:
I already addressed this: this is just a throwback to the Carvaka rejection of inference etc., as pramāṇas.

Who cares if a bunch of worldly intellectuals takes us seriously?

Buddhadharma is only practiced by those with the karma to meet it and practice it. That is what it means to have a "precious human birth". We have no need to convince anyone of anything. We are not on a campaign to ensure that the academy "Takes us seriously". They never have anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha is presented as teaching several different cosmologies. Which one are we to consider definitive?

Indrajala said:
The general model where the world is flat with four continents and a big mountain in the middle atop which Indra lives.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, you can choose to consider that version the definitive one. But I don't. I don't think the Buddha presented a definitive cosmology.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 4:59 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I don't reject the fact that Indians conceived that Meru lay somewhere to the north of India.

Indrajala said:
But you selectively reject Mt. Meru cosmology as taught by the Buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha is presented as teaching several different cosmologies. Which one are we to consider definitive?

Now, if it turns out that there really is a ring of iron mountains surrounding our world system to keep the stench of the rotting corpse hell from instantly annihilating all of us, well, then I will be very grateful for all the combined merit of sentient beings that keeps those mountains standing.

My point, is that I don't think the Indians, Buddha included, with their penchant for exaggeration necessarily took their own speculations about such things as Meru as representing some absolutely objective presentation.

On the other hand, there is considerable evidence that Buddha took other things very seriously, such as rebirth.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 4:46 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, you see the thing is that you are very selective about what you think the Buddha that is accurate, and what the Buddha said that was not.

Indrajala said:
Don't you reject Mt. Meru cosmology, which in fact the Buddha taught?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't reject the fact that Indians conceived that Meru lay somewhere to the north of India.

We also need to keep in mind that ancient Indians certainly regarded Meru as a mytho-poetic place, as is born out by the multiple cosmologies we find among Indian texts, both Buddhist and non-Buddhist.

I do not think that Indians feverishly adhered to their various cosmologies literally as Tibetans, and so on did. For one thing, Indians were awfully good at astronomy, and Meru cosmology as presented in the Kośa for example, certainly conflicts with Indian astronomical treatises written near the same time. No Buddhist mathematician working on calendars could have squared their calculations with the motion of the sun and moon around Meru as described. This is quite evident when the calculations in the Kalacakra are analyzed and then compared with the modified Meru Cosmology presented in the Kalacakra. See Henning, Kalacakra and the Tibetan Calendar.

I consider the Kośa cosmology anachronistic, and see no need to take it literally. There are also several cosmologies in Buddhist texts, not only one.

But when I do Mandala offerings, I definitely visualize the universe in that way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
smcj said:
Habits are actions, SMCJ, that is the point. There is nothing within the materialist paradigm to suggest that a wealthy person will become impoverished through his stinginess, and so on as a direct and infallible moral consequence of that act.
No, the materialist paradigm does not allow for such.

However Dharma paradigm allows for the action to effect the actor. Repeated action even more powerfully so. This same facet of karma explains both how repeated actions can create a drug addict or a virtuoso violinist. If someone can relate to those teachings they should be allowed to use them as a basis for further consideration.

Malcolm wrote:
I never preclude someone from considering the Dharma more deeply, in fact I encourage it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Andrew108 said:
The experience of karma for me is very specific, direct and obvious.


Malcolm wrote:
Since you don't believe in rebirth, being a physicalist, you hold an essentialist view of the mind, i.e. that it is in the brain somehow. For you, karma is irrelevant, as is Buddhadharma.

Andrew108 said:
Well you are painting quite a picture. I have said that I don't see how the usual logic that is advanced for rebirth is a definitive answer. I simply don't know about rebirth except that I won't be around to experience it - although there my be some depersonalised 'I' that continues and experiences but it won't be 'me'. I don't see mind or consciousness as somehow floating free of the body or being beyond the ALL. For what the ALL means then see my signature.

Malcolm wrote:
In the first part of the bardo you will have a subtle body that looks exactly like the one you have now, you will at first wonder why no one hears you or sees you, and so on, and this continues for the first couple of weeks. Eventually, you figure out that you died. Then, you take on the form of the kind of body you will have in your next rebirth, etc. This is all very clearly described by our teacher, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, in Birth, Life and Death.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thank you. I just want to point out that I in no way conflate "science", which is a practice, with "scientific materialism", which is a belief system.

Prasutagus said:
As someone trained as a scientist, this type of conversation gets heavily leveraged by assumptions as to what science is and is not.

There aren't physical laws scribbled onto the side of the box the universe came in, and if we look hard enough, we'll find the box, and thus the laws, and *poof* know how things work.  It doesn't work that way.  What we call "physical laws" are really conceptual schema for describing subjective experiences of the world.  Those laws become more refined as our subjective experience of the world becomes more  refined through the use of technologies.

The scientist is able to fall into the fault of physicalism every bit as much as the Buddhist.  Scientists will often talk about these conceptual schema as if they actually exist.  Nobody has seen an electron but we talk about them as they exist, not to mention quarks, photons and other inventions to describe phenomena. We talk about matter as if it's real, even though, from a physical sense it is made of point quanta and that everything that we really experience is the interactions between the quanta and not the point quanta.  Turn everything off and it collapses onto a single point.

If physicalism is a dead end for the scientist, it certainly is for the Buddhist.  Trying to reconcile Buddhism with the physicalist dead end of the intellectually naive scientist is no virtue.

Regarding quantum mechanics-- we can roll two ways with that, and I think that's pertinent to this discussion.

The basis of QM is that observations are non-commutative.  That means it depends upon whether we measure something's position in one direction before the momentum in another, and so on.  This is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.  We can look at that in two ways.  One, this is how the quantum world behaves upon observation.  As such, we can say this is a property of the geometry or space that things exist in.  The flip side of that is that we can say this is how consciousness operates when observing things small enough and discrete enough to notice.  QM is then really describing mind, and mind is more fundamental than all these little quanta.

No, Virginia, there is no physical reality separate from mind, and many scientists are coming to see that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:
Andrew108 said:
What we need to accept are the methods he gives us for getting this direct experience of mind/cognition. But that is another issue entirely.

Malcolm wrote:
As long as you think that cognition is in the brain, for that long you will not be able to have a direct experience of your own cognition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
smcj said:
Karma has to do with the moral repercussions of actions motivated by affliction on the person themselves in terms of how it affects the circumstances of their own life. The essentialist, physicalist model of reality precludes karma automatically.
Do you say that habit & such are not included in the teachings of karma? I believe it is under the heading of "consequences that reflects the germ of the act". If so, then what A108 is taking as his (current) interpretation could be seen as a correct, albeit partial, understanding of the whole theory. These days Newtonian physics is still seen as legitimate, but just not the whole story.

Malcolm wrote:
Habits are actions, SMCJ, that is the point. There is nothing within the materialist paradigm to suggest that a wealthy person will become impoverished through his stinginess, and so on as a direct and infallible moral consequence of that act.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
My understanding is informed by direct experience. .

Malcolm wrote:
Classically in India, materialists (but not Buddhists and so forth) only accepted direct perception as authoritative. However, the Buddha held that there were three authorities: direct perception, inference, and testimony of reliable witnesses.

I merely point this out to suggest to you that your thinking does not really fit within the fold of Buddhist teaching.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Oh o.k. Now I understand. Yes you can find cognition - in the sense that you can understand and recognise it's characteristics. You can't find it as a thing by itself. Understanding it's characteristics is just the beginning. It's not like recognizing it means that you reach an end point.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that's the end point, i.e. "Mind is in the brain", boom!

In reality, your solution, the physicalist one, runs "There mind cannot be found in terms of color, shape or form because there is no mind. What we call "mind" is an epiphenomena of information processes that reside in the brain", end of story.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Andrew108 said:
The experience of karma for me is very specific, direct and obvious.

Malcolm wrote:
Since you don't believe in rebirth, being a physicalist, you hold an essentialist view of the mind, i.e. that it is in the brain somehow. For you, karma is irrelevant, as is Buddhadharma.

smcj said:
I don't think that is fair to say. The teachings on karma do include habits and such, which is readily experiential. If someone does not feel comfortable extrapolating out beyond that, it's ok. Perhaps in another lifetime they will. But for now their view isn't mistaken, just limited.

Malcolm wrote:
Karma has to do with the moral repercussions of actions motivated by affliction on the person themselves in terms of how it affects the circumstances of their own life. The essentialist, physicalist model of reality precludes karma automatically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
The ability to see other realms isn't possible.

Malcolm wrote:
For you it isn't. For a Buddha, it is.

Andrew108 said:
You are right about me. As for the Buddha then I don't know. I guess it is a matter of faith. And you are entitled to have faith. That is your right.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you see the thing is that you are very selective about what you think the Buddha that is accurate, and what the Buddha said that was not. For example, you believe the Buddha about the value of mindfulness, but you don't believe the Buddha when he gives accounts of his memory of his own past lives, his abilities to see into other realms or talk with "supernatural" beings like devas and so on.

I would say that your understanding of Dharma is molded to fit with your present world view, which is founded on a basis of scientific materialism. Now as far as it goes, this is perfectly find and I have no objection. However, when you speak as if you are an authority on Buddhadharma and enunciate some of the interpretations of his teachings that you do, well...that is a completely different story.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra
Content:
catlady2112 said:
I have been doing Thrangu Rinpoche's mahamudra meditations on locating and observing "the mind," and examining what appears in the mind. I have 2 questions about the meaning of the word "mind" in this context:

1) Does mind mean "all" of these things below (and possibly more I am not considering).

-The thing/experience I have that is aware of the coming and going of thoughts?
-The thing/experience I have that is still present when there are no thoughts?
-The experience I have of being unaffected by thoughts?

2) Based on the 3 elements I've listed above, are these also considered the "nature" of mind ?

Thanks for your help!  (I'm rephrasing an earlier question I didn't ask clearly enough to address my root question)

Malcolm wrote:
You should ask your teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Holding a deterministic view of Kamma isn't helpful in my view. In fact, as I mentioned before, I see it as akin to a crime against humanity. If you follow this deterministic interpretation then you can't help but be in a position of indifference and then worse, a moral certitude that blames the victim.

asunthatneversets said:
I don't see that anyone has suggested determinism in this thread. Determinism would require inherent causes giving rise to inherent effects, however if you understand karma it is understood that this isn't the case. Ironically, you are the one who is advocating for inherent natural laws, which is just about as close to determinism as you're going to get.

Malcolm wrote:
I honestly do not know why we have to again and again remove people's misconceptions about this. I wish people would take the time to study these things properly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Andrew108 said:
The experience of karma for me is very specific, direct and obvious.


Malcolm wrote:
Since you don't believe in rebirth, being a physicalist, you hold an essentialist view of the mind, i.e. that it is in the brain somehow. For you, karma is irrelevant, as is Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 1:38 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Holding a deterministic view of Kamma isn't helpful in my view.

Malcolm wrote:
For as long as one has not overcome one's afflictions, for that long one will be subject to the rounds of rebirth. When one overcomes one's afflictions, one will no longer be subject to the rounds of rebirth and the ripening of karma, both positive and negative.

The Buddhist teaching of karma is not deterministic in any ultimate sense; but as long as one has not freed oneself from the three poisonous afflictions, one will still be subject to the effects of the fruit of actions committed while under their influence. For example, a bad king may not have an inherent position, but he and his evil ministers still dominate the subjects. But when the bad king is overthrown, his evil ministers lose their power too, and the subjects are free from their rule. Likewise, we are not inherently afflicted, but we are still dominated by afflictions. When we throw off our afflictions, the king, also we are free from his evil ministers, the result of afflicted actions.

But this is not deterministic. In order for the Buddha's teaching to be deterministic, one would have imagine that afflictions were inherent, but there is nothing in Dharma that states this is so, and quite a lot that rejects it.

What is stated is that karma is unerring, and will always ripen as long as conditions for its ripening are present.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Buddha clearly explained that one's karma follows one through lifetime after lifetime like a shadow that follows a bird.

saraswati said:
But... what is the "one" that is followed? What is the bird? Or is the shadow itself the bird?

Malcolm wrote:
The one that is followed is the kleshas which are responsible for assembling the skandhas over and over again in every lifetime, what follows are the actions motivated by those kleshas, which ripens as afflicted body, speech and mind.

Buddha taught it is permissible to refer to the five aggregates as "a self" or "a person", with the understanding that the five aggregates do not constitute a real self which endures over lifetimes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
The ability to see other realms isn't possible.

Malcolm wrote:
For you it isn't. For a Buddha, it is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 12:54 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Natural law means that nature or reality has characteristics that are observable or applicable in every case.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is the sort of irreducibility that is meant by "ultimate". Such laws are inviolable even by a Buddha. For example, there is no way the Buddha could have any of the psychic powers he claimed for himself, such as the ability read minds, see into other realms and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 12:35 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Berry said:
genetic illnesses ?

Malcolm wrote:
Genetic illnesses, deformities, etc., are by definition karmic diseases.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


Andrew108 said:
You may have noticed that I haven't denied that individual beings have their own continuum of causality that is specific to them. But it is at the level of mental reasoning and habitual tendencies that kamma gets played out.

Malcolm wrote:
No, sensations which are a result of negative action are exclusively physical; whereas sensations that are result of positive actions are exclusively mental.

You really ought to study the fourth chapter of the Abhidharmakośa, among other texts, rather than substituting your own concepts about what karma means in a Buddhist context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Andrew108 said:
What I read here is that karma is causality. I don't see any detailed explanation as to the specifics. So can you say what it was in your own karma that caused you to be born into your family? Can you give the specifics?

saraswati said:
When I first got interested in Buddhist thought I got into a bit of a muddle because of this whole identification with past karma. But I got a clarification from Ajahn Sumedho, who pointed out that this identification of myself with "my" karma is a symptom of wrong view. By thinking that "I" must have done something very bad in the past I would be holding to Ahankara, and believing that there was a "me" which could take responsibility for particular acts. At least in my naive view, I feel now that it's all a big pot of karma and we are what we are by picking up some part of it. And if we can help everyone by consuming and eliminating some of this collective karma, all the better. Not sure how this fits in with the Vajrayana view though.

Malcolm wrote:
No pot of karma at all.

Buddha clearly explained that one's karma follows one through lifetime after lifetime like a shadow that follows a bird.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 15th, 2014 at 12:14 AM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
Yes I am a naturalist. I posit that there are natural laws that exist independently. Natural laws are applicable everywhere. They are pervasive rather than ultimate.

Malcolm wrote:
"independent existence" is just another name for "ultimate", i.e., these laws are irreducible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:


Andrew108 said:
Science doesn't posit an ultimate truth. Most scientists aren't looking for ultimate truth.

Malcolm wrote:
You however do, you posit that there are real natural laws that exist independently.

Andrew108 said:
But for the purposes of furthering discussion, scientists do have proof that there is a world 'out there' and we should take such proof seriously.

Malcolm wrote:
Which proof would that be?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 10:18 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Andrew108 said:
So in that respect I think the authors of that article have made a mistake.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course you do, because your ultimate view is physicalism, not Dharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
The irony, of course, is that the Buddhism to which these Westerners were drawn was one already transformed by its contact with the West.
He doesn't really say anything about Tibetan Buddhism. Do you think something like this happened with TB as well?

Malcolm wrote:
It has already, look at Rigpa, Shambhala, Dzogchen Community, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: In the shadow of the Buddha
Content:
Sherab said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0ssQFNpAJo " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyone read the book?


Malcolm wrote:
For nearly a decade, Matteo Pistono smuggled out of Tibet evidence of atrocities by the Chinese government, showing it to the U.S. government, human rights organizations, and anyone who would listen. Yet Pistono did not originally intend to fight for social justice in Tibet-he had gone there as a Buddhist pilgrim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 9:02 PM
Title: Contra Buddhist Modernism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Interesting article.

http://www.tricycle.com/interview/losing-our-religion " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:
What sort of critique of the scientific view might Buddhism otherwise offer? The naturalistic stance—the idea that there is an independent insentient world out there governed by scientific laws and impersonal processes—is ultimately a human construct, a powerful and effective human construct, but a construct nonetheless. This is not to deny the power of science, but it does call into question the way we approach scientific knowledge. Of course, there are many philosophers, scientists, and historians of science who have made a similar point. But Buddhism has its own insights and perspectives to offer. In other words, when we engage seriously with the Buddhist tradition we learn other ways of construing the world, other stories we can tell about the way things are, and these can be cogent, coherent, and compelling in their own way. This is not to argue for a naive acceptance of Buddhist epistemology and cosmology. But we won't see what Buddhism has to offer if, at the outset, we twist it out of shape to make it conform to contemporary norms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: Root guru? Mother sentient beings?
Content:
saraswati said:
Dear friends: could someone give me the Tibetan (or even Sanskrit) terms for the above concepts?

I still don't understand the difference between guru/root guru/lama, but that is a topic for another subforum, maybe. But knowing the terms when they appear in chants would help.

Thank you in advance. And, happy Wesak to all!


Malcolm wrote:
rtsa ba'i bla ma

ma gyur sems can


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


seeker242 said:
Seems appropriate for this topic! Would telling someone that their cancer or disease is just their karma from their bad actions, would that be beneficial for that person? If not, then even if it's true, it would still be an inappropriate thing to say, according to the above. If it's not beneficial, it does not matter if it's true or not. It would still be a cruel thing to say to someone.

Malcolm wrote:
As I pointed out, a Buddhist should understand this already, and non-Buddhist has not need to.

Of course not all diseases are karmic diseases directly. But having a human body is a karmic ripening, and therefore too all the pleasure and pain that accompanies it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Zhen Li said:
To say that everything that happens is due to one's own actions is an extreme position.

Malcolm wrote:
No one said that. What I said was that all sensations are a result of action, either directly or indirectly. For example, being reborn in hell.

Buddha himself states in the Karmaśataka:

The happiness and misery of mortal beings
depends on actions.
And again we see in the Bodhisatvāvadānakalpalatā:

All of these happinesses and sufferings of mortal beings manifests through past karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Adi said:
Not so much anymore since all our cookware is now made in China and when the pots and kettles get to talking it's all in Mandarin or Cantonese and we can't understand a word of it.

Adi



Sherab Dorje said:
Okay people, can we drop the aggression level a few notches please?

Thank you.


Malcolm wrote:
Now that is definitely the pot calling the kettle black...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
.

You're new around here. You might want come down off that high horse you rode in on. The fall can be crippling.

Berry said:
Good grief! That sounds quite threatening & rather like the school bully .

.


Malcolm wrote:
I didn't say I was going to push him off. Anyway, his saddle, like the saddle of Gesar's mythic horse, is too high for me to reach. I am just an ordinary sentient being with impure vision, after all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 1:21 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Vajrasvapna said:
If you want to debate, it would be a good idea to use argument, not to be offensive.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a debate. I was sharing my opinion of your statement.

You're new around here. You might want come down off that high horse you rode in on. The fall can be crippling.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 14th, 2014 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Vajrasvapna said:
Thus, in the pure vision of enlightened beings, all beings are seen as Buddha and Bodhisattva.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, but not in ours. As Virupa said:

Appearances are impure for sentient beings in defilement;
Appearances are experiential for yogins in samadhi;
Appearances are pure for tathāgatas in the ornamental wheel of the inexhaustible body, speech and mind.

It is really sound to know where one is.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
JKhedrup said:
It is a good idea to make sure they are sincere monastics, and not people who use the title of "monk" to attract students, fame, and so on.
I actually think in the Western countries, especially with Western monks and nuns, rather than helping one attract students, fame etc. being a monk or nun actually makes things harder. Many Westerners I know have a strong bias towards lay teachers and often frankly don't like Western ordained Sangha.

Malcolm wrote:
My point is that I have met a number of western monks who imagine that by becoming monks they are going to become Dharma teachers. Anyone who _wants_ to become a teacher is insane. If you teach because people repeatedly ask you to, this is a different story.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 9:50 PM
Title: Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit
Content:


AlexanderS said:
As far as I understand it from that text those full benefits are only achieved if one practices the mantra with pure bodhichitta movtivation and pure samaya.

Malcolm wrote:
That's a given.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
muni said:
Sherab Dorje,
I understand you when you say phenomena are the cause of suffering, since this is what we experience in samsara/suffering.
Only when the phenomena are really the cause of our suffering, how to get rid of them all? I think many wars (karma) have been started by the idea that the phenomena (other) are the cause of our suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
The weakest practitioners, understanding that phenomena are the cause of suffering break the link at contact, so they will not experience sensation, and so on. This is the function of śila, discipline. Stronger practitioners can sever the link at sensation, since they can control their craving with samadhi. The best practitioners however, can sever the link at ignorance, since they are owners of prajñā.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
ignorance is klesha, formations is karma, consciousness through sensation are dukkha ; craving and addiction are klesha

muni said:
This makes sense to me.
Addiction = ("the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity..." googgle) = conditioned by own craving/clinging.

Malcolm wrote:
With is in turn conditioned by sensation [suffering], which is turn conditioned by contact [suffering] and so forth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
catlady2112 said:
I think it's always a good rule of thumb to study with monastics, no matter what generation they are of. People who have taken vows as monks and nuns have committed their whole life to the dharma.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a good idea to make sure they are sincere monastics, and not people who use the title of "monk" to attract students, fame, and so on. Not every one in robes who has taken vows observes them, or even thinks it is incumbent upon them to do so.

Therefore, it is better to take as a teacher someone whose discipline is pure, whether they are a lay person or a monastic.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 7:48 PM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The cause of suffering is karma. The cause of karma is affliction. It is really quite straightforward and not esoteric.

muni said:
And the cause of affliction? (disorder, Disease.. I read on google)

Malcolm wrote:
--> klesha --> karma --dukkha --> klesha -->

For example, according to Nāgārjuna, ignorance is klesha, formations is karma, consciousness through sensation are dukkha ; craving and addiction are klesha, becoming is karma, birth, and aging and death are suffering.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 7:29 PM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


muni said:
Ah! Then they are not afflicted by themselves.

Malcolm wrote:
"...all phenomena apart from path phenomena are afflicted or conducive to affliction "

muni said:
Thanks. I understand conducive to (actually not, but i went to google). Only, they are not the cause of suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
The cause of suffering is karma. The cause of karma is affliction. It is really quite straightforward and not esoteric. In this respect, as it is said in the four seals "All tainted phenomena are suffering".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 7:11 PM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


muni said:
Ah! Then they are not afflicted by themselves.

Malcolm wrote:
"...all phenomena apart from path phenomena are afflicted or conducive to affliction "


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 7:03 PM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Phenomena may be empty of essence (and this includes karma) but that does not mean that they are not a source of suffering (since they are empty of essence).

muni said:
Phenomena are the source of suffering or clinging is?

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, all phenomena apart from path phenomena are afflicted or conducive to affliction, so they induce craving...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 6:56 PM
Title: Re: What Constitutes Misconduct?
Content:
shaunc said:
As far as I know, for a lay follower of Buddhism, the only rule so to speak is adultery. Other things like rape, pedophilia & incest besides being prohibited in Buddhism are also illegal in most if not all western countries.

Karma Jinpa said:
shaunc, if I wasn't clear before, I apologize.  I figured since most of us are, like you, lay-practitioners, that we would discuss sexual misconduct as it pertains to upasakas & upasikas, rather than monastics.  While I'm sure it's more nuanced in the Vinaya, the practical rule of thumb for monastics (whether monk or nun) is celibacy, so any sexual conduct would be considered misconduct.

That's one of the reasons Khen Rinpoche's statement is so striking to me, If I'm honest with myself. Transformation of Suffering is a very accessible, down-to-earth explanation of the the Mahayana/Vajrayana Dharma, from the Four Thoughts to Refuge & Bodhicitta and the Six Paramitas.  He's most certainly talking to us lay-followers/householders throughout the whole book.

shaunc, which tradition (school/lineage) was the lama who gave you that explanation of misconduct, if I may ask?  No need to mention your individual teachers.

That leads me to my next question...  Are the vows interpreted differently between the different schools and lineages?  Or do Rinpoche's words in ToS match directly with what is said in the Mulasarvastivada Vinaya where we get our Pratimoksha vows?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, all this is explained in Abhidharmakosha. Sexual misconduct for lay people is wrong partner, wrong orifice, wrong time, wrong place.

Wrong partner means someone who is 1) not your spouse 2) underage 3) under the authority of another 4) ordained.

Wrong orifice means 1) anal 2) oral

Wrong time means daytime

Wrong place means in public, in a temple, in general in places where there is no privacy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 11:02 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Yes, quite. But that's not the meaning of backwards I was using.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, you were saying that which is actually moving us deeper into strife and barbarism is "forward", based on competitiveness and martial prowess, as opposed to a civilization, which despite its many faults, was one of the few remaining dedicated to the principles of Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 10:38 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:


Zhen Li said:
I'm open to arguing about backwards, but I defined my terms - which is comparative and competitive. I don't think there's much debate on this one - history is the witness.

Malcolm wrote:
All that history attests to is that we are deeper in the Kali yuga. It is we who are moving backwards.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 10:14 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Scientific knowledge that doesn't allow one to out compete other world powers doesn't prevent one from being backwards.

Malcolm wrote:
As Todd pointed out, this is very biased definition of "backwards". Your thinking on this needs some work. As far as I am concerned, the Europeans, et al were the backwards ones, issuing unheralded barbarisms the world has never before seen.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 10:02 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Zhen Li said:
less scientific knowledge....

Malcolm wrote:
You're normally a smart guy, but this is simply ignorance.

Tibetan Medicine for example has a germ theory, understood circulation correctly, how nerves functioned in relation to the brain and other sense organs, etc., hundreds of years before anyone in Europe had similar ideas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 8:48 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
At that time, Maha-Moggallana lived alone in a forest hut at Kalasila. After his encounter with Mara he knew that the end of his days was near. Having enjoyed the bliss of liberation, he now felt the body to be just an obstruction and burden. Hence he had no desire to make use of his faculties and keep the body alive for the rest of the aeon. Yet, when he saw the brigands approaching, he just absented himself by using his supernormal powers. The gangsters arrived at an empty hut, and though they searched everywhere, could not find him. They left disappointed, but returned on the following day. On six consecutive days Moggallana escaped from them in the same way. His motivation was not the protection of his own body, but saving the brigands from the fearsome karmic consequences of such a murderous deed, necessarily leading to rebirth in the hells. He wanted to spare them such a fate by giving them time to reconsider and abstain from their crime. But their greed for the promised money was so great that they persisted and returned even on the seventh day. Then their persistence was "rewarded," for on that seventh day Moggallana suddenly lost the magic control over his body. A heinous deed committed in days long past (by causing the death of his own parents) had not yet been expiated, and the ripening of that old Kamma confronted him now, just as others are suddenly confronted by a grave illness. Moggallana realized that he was now unable to escape. The brigands entered, knocked him down, smashed all his limbs and left him lying in his blood. Being keen on quickly getting their reward and also somewhat ill as ease about their dastardly deed, the brigands left at once, without a further look.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/hecker/wheel263.html#ch9 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 8:42 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Omniscience isn't possible. It would be crazy to assert that it is true. .

Malcolm wrote:
"Not seeing the characteristics of phenomena is the aspect (kara). Knowing all of this is called omniscience , hence "omniscience" is knowing all things."

— Āryāṣṭasāhasrikāprajñāpāramitāpañjikāsārottamā

TRC said:
Now I know why the Vajrayana can make the claim that Buddhahood can be attained through their path. Just lower the standard of what Buddhahood actually is.


Malcolm wrote:
This is a Mahāyāna sūtra commentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 7:16 AM
Title: Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit
Content:
Emakirikiri said:
I would believe it if there was a textual Dzogchen basis in which it is said so or if it came from ChNNR's mouth. As far as you're aware do you know if it has a grounding in either source?


Malcolm wrote:
It has a grounding in many terma cycles.

KDL said many things like this as well.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 7:15 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Ok, you keep on reducing things to the impossible -- tell me how well that works out the next time you burn your mouth on pizza.

Vajrasvapna said:
I'll just see the pain as something empty. created by the mind, not as something solid and real.

Malcolm wrote:
That, my friend is just a bunch of intellectual bullshit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 7:14 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Vajrasvapna said:
A Buddha teaches according to the tolerance of his students...

Malcolm wrote:
A Buddha has the clairvoyance to look right into a person's mind and know exactly what teaching they need.

We on the other hand, do not.

Vajrasvapna said:
My understanding is that negative actions are all actions motivated by the five poisons and clinging to a self and positive actions are all actions motivated by compassion and selflessness. People create their suffering unknowingly cling to what brings them pleasure and having aversion to what brings them suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, so filling people's ear with a load of stuff about non-dualism probably isn't going to help them, just as telling them they are a poor sinner isn't either.

Actually, most people who are sick just want a doctor, which is why I studied medicine, because in order to help people with Dharma, they have to have already drunk the koolaid.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 7:02 AM
Title: Re: Should Buddhists even care about "engaging" social polit
Content:
Emakirikiri said:
Do you believe this to be the case from a Vajrayana view and a Dzogchen view?


Malcolm wrote:
It doesn't matter if I believe it. The question is, do you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 6:48 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


daverupa said:
can indeed be a great cruelty to be avoided, depending on many contextual variables:


Malcolm wrote:
If they don't follow Dharma, for sure. If they are Buddhists then as Buddha said to Angulimāla, "Bear it brahmin, bear it, this is your past karma ripening...."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
rory said:
[ Basically it must be the norm.

Malcolm wrote:
Judge, jury and executioner, huh?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 6:30 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


Vajrasvapna said:
The logic of stating that there is a separation between the relative and the absolute is the idea of Svatantrika school, even if this logic is positive to avoid the nihilistic tendencies of some people; I prefer the logic of "reduction to the impossible", as in Prasangika school.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, you keep on reducing things to the impossible -- tell me how well that works out the next time you burn your mouth on pizza.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Vajrasvapna said:
To me, karma is an illusion. And what I want is that people help each other and not make use of religion to abuse those already in pain.

Malcolm wrote:
Then keep telling them that their suffering is just an illusion, that will get you really far.

At least the Buddha's teaching on karma, contained in such texts as the String of Pearls Tantra and others, actually explains to them why they are suffering.

"I am suffering"

"This  negative sensation you are experiencing is a ripening of your karma."

"I feel pleasure"

"This positive sensation you are experiencing is a ripening of your karma."

"I feel neither suffering or pleasure."

"This neutral  sensation you are experiencing is a ripening of your karma."

Etc.

At that time, the signs of awareness are as follows:
the mind of someone who has 
purified karma is clear. 
In the same way, if [karma] is not purified, [the mind] is not clear. 
All of that arises from positive and negative karma.

Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Mooon


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You mean ultimately there is no good or bad action. But even in Dzogchen, relatively speaking there is good and bad action.

Vajrasvapna said:
Actually, I did not mean it, the text that you shared expresses what I wanted to say at the end:

Malcolm wrote:
You should have meant it, since the text clearly says: "the ultimate [your stance] endowed with the form of the relative [where people experience the ripening of action].


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 6:14 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
We suffer because of our own past actions, and not for any other reason, as uncomfortable as this notion is to daverūpa and many other folks who nominally describe themselves as Buddhist.
There is a difference between the Theravada and Sarvastivadin point of view on this. The Theravadins maintain that not everything bad that can happen to someone is necessarily karmic. It is derived from their theory of 24 conditions.

For the Sarvastivadins however, all suffering, even suffering caused by natural disasters, requires some kind of karmic cause.

daverupa said:
So the Theravadans have it wrong, and the Sarvastivadins have it right. The Theravadans are nominally Buddhist; the Sarvastivadins are actually Buddhist.

Do I understand you correctly, Malcolm?

You also either think I'm a Theravadin, or nominally a Buddhist for other reasons, such as citing the Anguttara... I'm so very perplexed.

Malcolm wrote:
Dave,

You took rebirth in samsara. Samsara has three kinds of suffering, according to Shariputra in the Majjihma Nikāya, suffering of suffering, the suffering of change and the suffering of compounded things. Therefore, everything in samsara is suffering.  We only take rebirth because of our karma and for no other reason. Since we are reborn in samsara, and there is nothing but suffering, there is no other reason for any of our suffering than karma, either directly, as the Sarvastivadins maintain, or indirectly, as the Theravadins must in the end admit. But there are some people who call themselves Buddhists who actually imagine that there is some kind of happiness in Samsara. These people are a little mistaken.

Your citation of the Anguttara Nikaya does not in any way refute my contention all our suffering comes from past causes of our own creation. That's why I cited the Anguttara Nikaya back at you. I never said anywhere that everything we do now was caused by something we did in the past. Essentially, what I am saying is that all positive, negative and neutral sensations we experience in the three realms are a result of the ripening of positive, negative and neutral actions. You have carried a misunderstanding of my position from our last conversation about this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 6:06 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna, in the only place where he expresses a preference in the MMK, expresses a preference for the debt theory of the Ārya-Sammitya school. This latter theory has ancient resonances in the immorality of debt which can be found in the Vedas.

Vajrasvapna said:
What is the debt theory of the Ārya-Sammitya school or where I can read more about it?

Malcolm wrote:
The Ārya-sammitya proposed that every act created a dharma called an "avipranasha", which was like a debt. It exists until it paid up. The Buddha himself likened action to a debt. You can think of karma as being like an inheritance tax.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 5:45 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Vajrasvapna said:
People think that karma works in a dualistic way, all suffering originates from a evil action, but this is not true, because, in essence, there is no good or evil action.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean ultimately there is no good or bad action. But even in Dzogchen, relatively speaking there is good and bad action. As the String of Pearls Tantra states:

One is placed in the dungeon of name and matter
in the castle of the three realms,
tortured with the barbs of ignorance and so on, 
oppressed by the thick darkness of samsara, 
attached to the salty taste of desire, 
bound by the neck with the noose of confusion, 
burned with the hot fire of hatred, 
head covered with pride, 
setting a rendezvous with the mistress of jealousy, 
surrounded by the army of enmity...
tied by the neck with the noose of subject and object, [29b]
stuck in the mud of successive traces
and handcuffed with the ripening of karma.
Having been joined with the ripening of karma, 
one takes bodies good and bad, 
one after another like a water wheel,
born into each individual class.
Having crossed at the ford of self-grasping, 
one sinks into the ocean of suffering
and one is caught by the heart on the hook of the three lower realms.
One is bound by oneself; the afflictions are the enemy. 
The body of a hell being appears as fire or water.
Pretas are frightened and intimidated.
There is a fog-like appearance for animals.
The aggregates, sense gates and sense elements
of humans appear as the five elements,
and also happiness, suffering and indifference. 
They appear as armor and weapons to asuras 
and desirable qualities for devas. 
Such dualistic appearances,
for example, are like a quickly moving wheel
spinning continuously for a long while. 
As such, diverse appearances
are like seeing a snake from a rope;
that [rope] is not [a snake] but is apprehended as a [snake];
forming as both the outer universe and inhabitants.
If that is investigated, it is a rope.
The universe and inhabitants have always been empty, 
the ultimate endowed with the form of the relative.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:


Vajrasvapna said:
The Yogacara school says that every action generates a karmic seed, so the seed would be harvested in the future. This idea is in common with the way people think in general, but it is strange from the standpoint of the Mahayana philosophy.

Malcolm wrote:
Ultimately, the Yogacara theory is grounded in the Sautrantika notion that karma is a result of the transformation of vasana [bag chags] in the mind stream [citta samtanaparinama].

Vajrasvapna said:
On the other hand, Nagarjuna, founded of the Madhyamaka school,

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna, in the only place where he expresses a preference in the MMK, expresses a preference for the debt theory of the Ārya-Sammitya school. This latter theory has ancient resonances in the immorality of debt which can be found in the Vedas.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Ven. Khedrup...I'm not bullying you. I just found it hard to believe that after 10 years or so of being involved with Tibetan monastic institutions you haven't also come across some forms of abuse ( mental and physical).

Malcolm wrote:
He has.


Andrew108 said:
I have come across it in the U.K and also in Boudha, Kathmandu. I was given the impression that what happened to me was common. I'm glad that you have had a different experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Different monastic traditions have different standards. For example, what I am familiar with from Bodhanatha in a monastery I was at, was that many of the adolescent monks had girlfriends. In the group of students I was with, there was also a guy, not a monk, who hit on a couple of the teenage monks.

There is also the issue that indeed pornography is quite widespread in Tibetan exile community in general, and has been for quite a long time, for at least twenty years.  It would be extremely naive to believe that adolescent promiscuity in Tibetan monasteries does not happen. Of course it does. But as I already pointed out, most of these kids are not expected to become monks in adult hood. Many of them are being sent their by their parents because they want then to have a religious education.

The problem with this whole conversation, apart from its origins in an clumsy attempt to discredit certain Tibetan cultural beliefs that have nothing to with the Dharma, is that is exists in a vacuum absent a whole range of sociological considerations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
smcj said:
Dude should have given back his robes

Malcolm wrote:
He did.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
smcj said:
If karma was fixed then liberation wouldn't be possible
Unripened karma is not fixed. Fully ripened karma is pretty fixed. If your karma has fully ripened in such a way that you are going to have a leg amputated, your leg is going to be amputated. But if you purify that same karma while it is in an unripened state you may just have a blister on your foot.
...and karma doesn't operate the forces of nature.

If people who've lived somewhere all their lives are killed in a tsunami its nothing to do with their past.
Don't be so sure. That would mean that airplane crashes, war dead, epidemics and such were not karmic either.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a difference between the Theravada and Sarvastivadin point of view on this. The Theravadins maintain that not everything bad that can happen to someone is necessarily karmic. It is derived from their theory of 24 conditions.

For the Sarvastivadins however, all suffering, even suffering caused by natural disasters, requires some kind of karmic cause.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
rory said:
I had a prior discussion about 'whether the Buddha can experience evil thoughts' the interesting outcome is that I found there is a big difference between Tibetan Buddhisit and East Asian adherents: the former do not have the concept of merit transference that East Asian adherents have...

Malcolm wrote:
This is not the case rory, you are once again mistaken in your understanding of Tibetan Buddhism, and not for the first time. I suggest you study it a bit. Especially a book like Lamrim Chenmo where the principle of dedication of merit is covered in detail.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
theanarchist said:
it's fair to say it's nothing more than a vile smear campaign.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, started by someone who ought to have the common sense to know better.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
DCDDM228 said:
No one should ever use karma as a bullying tactic.  Just as everyone's concept of reality is different for them as it is for someone else,  so are their acts that have affected karma.  You never know the details of someone's past that could he dramatically different that yours that affects karma.   I have always been under the impression that karma was slightly more entailed than just "do this and get that effect. "

Malcolm wrote:
What you can know about everyone is that we were born in this life because we were afflicted in the past life. All negative karma is caused by affliction, all suffering is caused negative karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Yes we know about karma.  We are just not sure how smart it is to pass a judgement on the suffering of others in a way that suggests the victim/'sufferee' (?) is to blame.

Malcolm wrote:
I just said blame is not even an issue. We suffer because of our own past actions, and not for any other reason, as uncomfortable as this notion is to daverūpa and many other folks who nominally describe themselves as Buddhist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
JKhedrup said:
Where did I say I didn't? I objected to widespread, endemic, rife and all the other silly adjectives.

Both cases I know of occurred in Thai monasteries though, not Tibetan ones.

Andrew108 said:
You know more than you are saying.

Malcolm wrote:
Really, now you can read minds?

Andrew108 said:
You are worried about Tibet bashing.  Anti-Tibetan sentiments.  I'm more interested in the truth.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not true. We are concerned that this kind of thing quickly becomes an unfounded witch hunt.

Andrew108 said:
Or at least an open discussion.  If we have an open discussion then we can understand more of the subtleties of the situation and this can bring about useful understanding.

Malcolm wrote:
RIght, this is kind of open discussion you want to have:

"When is the last time you beat your wife?"

"But I don't even have a wife!"

"Ah, that is because you beat her, correct? Then she left you."

"But I've never even been married!"

"Yes, that is because you beat your girlfriend!"

"But I am gay!"

"Aha, so you are a little pervert after all!"

Etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
AN 3.61 said:
"Having approached the brahmans & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.033.than.html:
"Just as when seeds are not broken, not rotten, not damaged by wind & heat, capable of sprouting, well-buried, planted in well-prepared soil, and the rain-god would offer good streams of rain. Those seeds would thus come to growth, increase, & abundance. In the same way, any action performed with greed ... performed with aversion ... performed with delusion — born of delusion, caused by delusion, originating from delusion: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
This is a spurious objection. So far as we know, there are no Buddhas running any monasteries in the world today.

Regarding one's guru as being an actual buddha is a practice, not an objective fact.

Andrew108 said:
I didn't say they were Buddhas. I said if they had a fraction of the realization then they would know. Sometimes we get lost in the Maitreya/Asanga elaboration of a Buddha's omniscience rather than looking at the facts on the ground or in the Sutras.

Malcolm wrote:
The Maitreya/Asanga elaboration of a Buddha's omniscience is based on the sūtras, Mahāyāna sūtras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Yes it is cruel and completely wrong.

Malcolm wrote:
No it is merely a fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: karma bully
Content:
Vajrasvapna said:
I have noticed that it is very common for people to use the concept of karma to abuse people who often are already experiencing some pain, for example, saying "this is your karma" for people who are sick, which gives the impression that the person deserves his or her suffering. I wonder what people opinion about this topic, for it seems to me a great cruelty.

Malcolm wrote:
No one "deserves" suffering, but all suffering is the ripening of past karma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:


Andrew108 said:
If an enlightened master who heads up a monastic institution had even a fraction of this capacity then they would know about the abuse that goes on under their roof. They would also know how to organise things so that this abuse didn't take place.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a spurious objection. So far as we know, there are no Buddhas running any monasteries in the world today.

Regarding one's guru as being an actual buddha is a practice, not an objective fact.

Andrew108 said:
Knowing something that is 'beyond range' isn't possible.

Malcolm wrote:
The range of a Buddha's mind, what they can see, hear, and so on infinitely exceeds ours.

For example, for us, without binoculars, ALL, in reference to sight, means all that can be seen with our ordinary naked eye. But a Buddha's eye (there are five eyes actually) is not so restricted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 2:27 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
JKhedrup said:
I have to admit that I feel a little worn out from much of the recent anti-Tibet sentiment on the board here, as well as from witnessing the same sentiment outside HH DL's teachings in Holland yesterday.

Luke said:
People in Holland have anti-Tibet feelings?  May I ask why?
Are they just racist?  Or were they just upset about some specific religious/political issue?

Malcolm wrote:
It's the Dogyal crew shouting their same stupid slogans at HHDL.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Does this 'knowing completely' of a Buddha also include that which does not appear to the senses, such as the thoughts and intentions of others as well as past and future events?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course. Buddhas can know all phenomena, including the minds of others, where they are reborn, where they are now, what kind of karma they have, where they will be, and so on, throughout the three times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
According to this Sutta the Buddha is confirming 'All knowing' is not possible.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that is not what is happening in this sutra. What the Buddha is saying here is that he does not assert of himself what Mahathera asserted of himself, i.e. that the Buddha constantly in a state of total knowledge of all things at all times. Buddha rejected this kind of omniscience. The kind of omniscience the Buddha has is the ability to know completely anything to which his mind is directed without effort. Not even in Mahāyāna is asserted that a Buddha in a state of total knowledge of all phenomena at all times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
mañjughoṣamaṇi said:
It does border on a racialized discourse though.

Malcolm wrote:
Indrajala is not a racist, but he is a chauvinist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 1:33 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
And by the way the Buddha never made any claims to be omniscient.

Malcolm wrote:
Believe what you like. But you might want to study a bit of sutra and tantra before you make such bold claims.

In fact, since all phenomena are actually the display of a buddha's wisdom, there is in fact nothing that a buddha cannot know. Buddhas are omniscient, they are not, however, omnipotent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You do not understand the context of what omniscience means.

It means "not seeing the characteristics of phenomena". Since that is perceived with respect to all phenomena, a Buddha is omniscient. It does mean, as Dharmakiriti famously quipped, that a Buddha knows the number of maggots in the ground.

It means that they know the nature of all phenomena and all the details of all paths to become buddhas.

Andrew108 said:
You are changing the meaning of the word. So it might be better to use a different term. Knowing the nature of all phenomenon is not the same as omniscience.

Malcolm wrote:
Latin | Sanskrit | Tibetan | Engligh
omni | sarva     | thams cad  | all

Latin | Sanskrit | Tibetan | English
scientia | jñāna     | mkhyen pa |knowing

In this case, knowing the nature of all phenomena bears the consequence that one's mind is unimpeded and thus one can also know all the details, should one wish to.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Omniscience isn't possible. It would be crazy to assert that it is true. .

Malcolm wrote:
"Not seeing the characteristics of phenomena is the aspect (kara). Knowing all of this is called omniscience , hence "omniscience" is knowing all things."

— Āryāṣṭasāhasrikāprajñāpāramitāpañjikāsārottamā

Andrew108 said:
I know that omniscience means knowing all things and I am saying that this 'knowing all things' is not possible.

Malcolm wrote:
You do not understand the context of what omniscience means.

It means "not seeing the characteristics of phenomena". Since that is perceived with respect to all phenomena, a Buddha is omniscient. It does not mean, as Dharmakiriti famously quipped, that a Buddha knows the number of maggots in the ground.

It means that they know the nature of all phenomena and all the details of all paths to become buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 13th, 2014 at 12:18 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Omniscience isn't possible. It would be crazy to assert that it is true. .

Malcolm wrote:
"Not seeing the characteristics of phenomena is the aspect (kara). Knowing all of this is called omniscience , hence "omniscience" is knowing all things."

— Āryāṣṭasāhasrikāprajñāpāramitāpañjikāsārottamā


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Indrajala said:
I'm not saying it is right. Nations generally behave in a way that is in their interests. It isn't about what is right and wrong, but what is in your interests.

Malcolm wrote:
As a Buddhist, you know quite well that knowing the difference between right and wrong and then acting on that information in all areas of one's life is the only thing that is one's own as well as everyone else's interest.

Excusing the harmful actions of great nations on the grounds they are merely acting in their own interest is excusing the sociopathy behind all of the world's conflicts today.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Indrajala said:
There's actually a lot of logic behind the decisions undertaken by the PRC. It isn't necessarily moral by Buddhist standards, but they're not a bunch of psychotic monsters.

Malcolm wrote:
Psychopathy has many shades.

http://tibettruth.com/case-files-on-forced-sterilization/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
I
realization will be seen to consist of the special reduction or elimination of kleshas and worldly concerns.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the path of freedom, i.e. Arhatship and Pratyekabuddhahood. It is the principle goal of the Hīnayāna path.

Then there is the path of achieving both freedom and omniscience, i.e. Buddhahood. This is the principle goal of the Mahāyāna path.

Then there is the path of achieving freedom and omniscience in one lifetime in this body. This is the principle goal of the Vajrayāna path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 9:12 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Some people apparently think that Buddhism in China is more important than the Buddhism in its homeland. This really is a reflection of the belief amongst many Chinese Buddhists that late Indian Buddhism was completely corrupt. A false belief, of course, but one that is widely diffused amongst them.

Indrajala said:
That's true. Some Chinese Buddhists also believe they civilized Buddhism, too.

Incidentally, some Shingon proponents believe late period Vajrayāna is corrupted and degenerate, and that theirs represent pure esoteric Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course they believe this. It comes out of believing that some human cultures are better than others, a belief to which you strongly adhere.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
jiashengrox said:
Exactly. One of them is the debate tradition which was inherited from the ancient Nalanda University. I thought it was really wonderful to preserve this pedagogy of learning and study.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people apparently think that Buddhism in China is more important than the Buddhism in its homeland. This really is a reflection of the belief amongst many Chinese Buddhists that late Indian Buddhism was completely corrupt. A false belief, of course, but one that is widely diffused amongst them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 8:14 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
JKhedrup said:
I am actually really glad they did pull out.

Not because I don't like East Asian Buddhism- I really think if I had met different teachers I could see myself practicing in a tradional Chinese Buddhist order like Master Hua's.

The reason I'm glad they pulled out it that is enabled them to preserve the essence of many Indian Buddhist traditions that died out in the land of their birth, and if they had of adopted East Asian Buddhism this would not have been the case.

Malcolm wrote:
As I explained to Rory, after 845 there was no mainstream East Asian Buddhism to join. She should study history a little more closely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 8:13 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Indrajala said:
I spoke to the Health Minister of the Exile Government a few months ago and he said TB is the biggest health problem among Tibetans in India (or maybe it was?).

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, many of the refugees bring it with them from China when they escape. When I interned in the hospital in Xining, we had a whole wing devoted to TB patients. Many had come back several times.

Indrajala said:
Many would choose poverty over kowtowing to totalitarianism and systematic cultural annihilation.
China is not a totalitarian state.

Malcolm wrote:
\

It really depends on who you are. The Tibetans are under a totalitarian regime; their culture, language and heritage under extreme attack.

Indrajala said:
I'm not so convinced Tibetan culture is subject to 'systematic cultural annihilation'. Monasteries are being rebuilt. Akong Rinpoche was working on that. You can still be a monk in Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
When you deny people the right to be educated in their own language, their culture dies.

Indrajala said:
New Tibetan books are regularly published in Tibet, or so I hear.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is true -- but an every dwindling population of Tibetans can read them.

Indrajala said:
but the standard of living is still far better than what you get in India.

Malcolm wrote:
That really depends on where you live and how high up in the party you are.

Having seen many Chinese people as patients while I was an intern, most of their diseases were a result of their very low standard of living, just like in India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
rory said:
I really dont' have much of an opinion of Tibet, I'm neither a lover nor a basher. I do have a low opinion of their pulling out after 1 debate and not being part of mainstream East Asian Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
The Tibetans chose to follow mainstream Indian Buddhism because, from the Tibetan point of view, the Chinese Buddhists were bested in a three year debate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 7:49 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:


JKhedrup said:
Also, medical care in China is prohibitively expensive. Despite being a socialist country, it makes people pay for healthcare just like in America. Good quality hospitals are probably financially out of reach for most Tibetans.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a fact. In order to even be seen in a Chinese emergency room, you must bring 2000 RMB cash.

Add to this the fact that as for most rural Indians, rural Chinese people have thoroughly noisome outhouses (and the bathrooms in the cities are just as foul as any I have encountered in India) and let their little ones pee and poo in public everywhere...his notion that China is cleaner than India is a fantasy. The water in mainland China is polluted beyond belief. The air in many places in China, unbreathable, just like Kathmandhu and Delhi. 25 percent of the arable land in China is too polluted to farm, and the list of China's environmental woes goes on and on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 7:12 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Two cases is not "numerous".

Indrajala said:
And suspicion of it occurring elsewhere.
A year later, at least a dozen monks, including some who were underage, were diagnosed with STIs, and at least five monks were known to be HIV positive.
And the link to sexual abuse is?
HIV is unlikely to be introduced to a group of minors from another minor.

Malcolm wrote:
Are you completely naive? Teen transmitted HIV is very common.

For example:

Despite stable rates of HIV diagnosis in older populations, the rate of HIV diagnoses from 2006 to 2009 increased in teens 15-19 and youth 20-24 years of age, and was highest in the 20-24 year-old age group. Undiagnosed HIV cases are thought to be highest among young people. Of the approximately 1.2 million people living with HIV, approximately one in five, or 220,000, doesn’t know they’re infected. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates more than half of all undiagnosed HIV infections are youth ages 13 – 24.3

https://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/news/e-updates/june-2012.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When you add this to the fact that Bhutan has a cultural reputation for promiscuity, well what do you expect in a country where people do not where condoms and the most important culture hero is Drugpa Kunley?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 7:00 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:


Indrajala said:
Also, in 2013 there were also numerous cases of sexual abuse reported in Bhutan:


Malcolm wrote:
Numerous, as it turns out, is two.

Indrajala said:
Four victims that have been reported, plus suspicion of it being an issue in the larger community:

Malcolm wrote:
Two cases is not "numerous".


Indrajala said:
A year later, at least a dozen monks, including some who were underage, were diagnosed with STIs, and at least five monks were known to be HIV positive.

Malcolm wrote:
And the link to sexual abuse is?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:


Indrajala said:
Also, in 2013 there were also numerous cases of sexual abuse reported in Bhutan:


Malcolm wrote:
Numerous, as it turns out, is two.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"Teeth and Claws of the Buddha: Monastic Warriors and Sōhei in Japanese History." Adolphson, 2007, Hawai'i.

Indrajala said:
It remains unclear how many sōhei were actually monks.

Secondly, there were a minority in Japan, if they were even largely clergy.

Thirdly, they are part of medieval Japanese history, and not Chinese history. In China the Shaolin monks were not necessarily accepted by more mainstream Buddhist monks.

Malcolm wrote:
You made a blanket statement about East Asian Mahāyāna. You did not qualify in anyway.



Indrajala said:
As well as the case of HIV being spread in Bhutanese monasteries:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/bhutas-makes-condoms-available-to-monks-to-stop-spread-of-stds_n_2976401.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
This not about sexual abuse.

Indrajala said:
Chhoekey Penjor, deputy chief information officer at the Children’s Division of the commission, confirmed the allegations were found to be true and “necessary action was taken.”

Malcolm wrote:
So yes, there are pedophiles everywhere. Here, they were discovered and punished.

Indrajala said:
If this sort of thing is happening in Bhutan which at least has rule of law and journalists willing to address such matters, what about India and Nepal where Tibetans have little voice being refugees? India and Nepal barely have rule of law, so complaints to the police might not mean much.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not demonstrated this is a pervasive problem in Tibetan Monasteries.

Also, Kalu Rinpoche has said that the cycle of abuse went onto other young monks after he left his monastery:
It wasn't until Kalu returned to the monastery after his three-year retreat that he realized how wrong this practice was. By then the cycle had begun again on a younger generation of victims, he says.

Note the use of the plural there: victim s.
Yes, apparently the gang of monks that abused him continued to abuse others. In his monastery, not all other monasteries in India.

Indrajala said:
Apparently even Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche has voiced concern about sexual abuse in monasteries:

Malcolm wrote:
Stating that it is a "concern" is not a statement that it is endemic or pervasive.

Indrajala said:
Incidentally, in 2000 there were claims of sexual abuse at Samye Ling Center (that's the west, of course, but still Tibetan Buddhist):

Malcolm wrote:
Not of children.

Indrajala said:
Therefore taken altogether I would conclude that sexual abuse in Tibetan monasteries is a serious problem.

Malcolm wrote:
Of which you actually have no proof or evidence of. Merely a suspicion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
"Vajrayāna claims rapid results.
Tulkus practice Vajrayāna.
Tulkus can't seem to protect children under their care from sexual predation.
Therefore, Vajrayāna claims to produce rapid results are questionable."

This sort of logic is really very poor.

M

Andrew108 said:
The logic is quite well-founded. It shows that rapid results are not axiomatic, even for those who are privileged.

Malcolm wrote:
It's extremely poor, since I have shown that the tulku system does not come from the system of Vajrayāna. It is merely a Tibetan cultural practice. It is not Dharma.

Andrew108 said:
As to the idea that abuse isn't widespread or claims aren't substantiated well you know that there is a lot that is hidden due to feelings of shame.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so there is a conspiracy of silence. What nonsense.

Andrew108 said:
This self-censorship is one large part of the problem - the denial of abuse is only now being seen as not helpful (hence the issuing of condoms to monks in Bhutan).

Malcolm wrote:
Issuing condemns to rape victims? That's a novel approach. In general, teenagers in monasteries tend to have girlfriends. One of the most common reasons for leaving the monastery is knocking up your girlfriend.

Andrew108 said:
Adele Wilde-Blavatsky discusses this in an article she wrote for the Elephant Journal.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, I agree that monasteries are not suitable places to educate children. But for reasons different than the one's she raises. Kids educated in monasteries do not receive the benefit of a modern education.

Andrew108 said:
She writes:
"In October 2011, a famous and highly-respected reincarnate Tibetan Buddhist master, Kalu Rinpoche, posted a Youtube video in which he reveals the abuse he suffered as a young monk at the hands of adult monks in his monastery. Rinpoche’s allegations caused shockwaves within the Tibetan Buddhist community (particularly his western students). Since that time, I have not heard any Tibetan Buddhist teacher (especially those connected with Kalu Rinpoche) publicly respond to his allegations, let alone suggest there be a formal investigation and those responsible brought to account. One can only hope Kalu Rinpoche’s video exposure of this serious issue has not gone to waste and been brushed under the carpet in the hope that people might forget about it.

You wonder why there has been no follow up or public statement.

Malcolm wrote:
It would be irresponsible for anyone to respond without launching an investigation.

Andrew108 said:
If you were a father and your young child was recognized as a tulku would you let your child be taken by monastics? I doubt it.

Malcolm wrote:
I would not let my child be recognized as a tulku to begin with.

Andrew108 said:
Whilst sexual abuse may be hidden and not discussed openly, what is known to be commonplace and is openly discussed is the violent corporal punishment meted out to monks who commit only minor infractions that displease their superiors.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh please. They get a stick across the back of their calves. One of the reasons one of my teachers did so well in school is that those kids who did not memorize their lines would be stood up and would be punished in front of the class.

Andrew108 said:
I myself have seen how sexual relations within Tibetan monastic institutions are commonplace.

Malcolm wrote:
Which kind of sexual relations? Between whom?

Andrew108 said:
You might also consider the testimony of Ruben Derksen (a western tulku) who talks about systematic abuse in the monastery where he was receiving his training.

Malcolm wrote:
What kind of abuse? Beatings, rape, etc?

Andrew108 said:
Now the point is that the leaders of these monasteries are not being proactive in preventing cases of abuse and rarely promote organisational changes that would mitigate against such abuse.

Malcolm wrote:
You don't actually know this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
There are well documented cases of abuse.

Malcolm wrote:
Define "well documented". Do you mean that people were arrested, sent to court? Imprisoned?

Or do you mean by well documented "So and so said so".

The point is not to deny that such things can, and indeed, do occur, if we are to believe Kalu Rinpoche's allegations.

The point is to approach the issue with responsibility and not paint all Tibetan institutions as places infested with pedophiles and child rapists.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
theanarchist said:
So, go home with your tired old rambling.

Indrajala said:
Would you be content if we all ignored documented cases of child abuse in monasteries and pretended such things never occurred?

Malcolm wrote:
We would be content if you actually had some facts upon which to base your wide ranging accusations. So far we have Kalu Rinpoche's story as well as ???

Not much at this point. The point is to act responsibly and not fling out accusations which smear shit even on people you have taken teachings from and claim to respect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 12th, 2014 at 12:58 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Dan74 said:
Well, this is more than a discussion. When you make statements like "East Asian Mahāyāna actually has a better track record historically than Tibetan Buddhism" it crosses into sectarian bashing, rather than a discussion about learning. Learning can take place in a respectful environment, can it not? That's the key notion I am trying to raise here - respect.

Indrajala said:
It can't qualify as sectarian bashing because EA Mahāyāna is a general geographical designation for forms of Buddhism based on the Classical Chinese canon in the Sinosphere. For the simple fact East Asian clergy seldom had major political-military authority, they were seldom if ever guilty of transgressions that putting down a rebellion would entail. Consequently my statement is reasonable albeit provocative.

Malcolm wrote:
"Teeth and Claws of the Buddha: Monastic Warriors and Sōhei in Japanese History." Adolphson, 2007, Hawai'i.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
Whether there are Tulkus or not the guru is seen as infallible.

Malcolm wrote:
One is to perceive only one's own guru as free from faults. That does not mean that one not free to see faults wherever and in whomever they exist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
WuMing said:
To come back to the original question: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?

What about you, Malcolm, being a Dharma teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
There is very little need for me to be a Dharma teacher.

There are many people, both in the East and the West, who are far more qualified than me, and much nicer people to boot.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The Vajrayāna claim is that if you take two beginners of equal diligence and capacity and put them on the path, the Mahāyāni will take three incalculable eons to attain full buddhahood, .


theanarchist said:
Can we be sure that it's not possible to do it faster than the being later known as Shakyamuni did? Just because he took this amount of time doesn't automatically mean that as a rule this is the fastest possible.

Malcolm wrote:
Three "incalculable" eons is the minimum time it takes the person of highest capacity to travel the common Mahāyāna path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 9:11 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:


smcj said:
Sutra Mahayana does make the claim that full awakening is possible in this body, but only if this body is the product of previous bodies' Dharma practice. So who knows if this body is in striking distance or not? The only way to tell is practice Dharma and see what happens. Sure would be a waste if all you're previous incarnations spent all that time and energy to get you this close and you just didn't feel like it this time.

The tantric claim is that full awakening is possible in the body that first makes contact with Dharma practice, not later incarnations. Sure would be a waste if you're this close and don't feel like making the effort.

Malcolm wrote:
The Vajrayāna claim is that if you take two beginners of equal diligence and capacity and put them on the path, the Mahāyāni will take three incalculable eons to attain full buddhahood, the Vajrayāni will be able to attain full buddhahood in one body and one lifetime.

Why? Quite simply speaking, Mahāyāna has no methods that work with the body and it does not take the result as the path.

However, no one is forcing anyone to believe Vajrayāna claims about anything.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
smcj said:
Sutra Mahayana does make the claim that full awakening is possible in this body, but only if this body is the product of previous bodies' Dharma practice.:


theanarchist said:
Indeed. Like Shakaymuni was said to have practiced for several immeasurable kalpas to get there.

Malcolm wrote:
Three, in fact. Two eons to get the eighth bhumi, one more to attain full buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
TRC said:
It appears the Vajrayana can be critical of others, but cry foul when some overdue criticism is directed at them.

Malcolm wrote:
People can criticize Vajrayāna all they like, but they should use arguments which make sense, which are actually grounded in Vajrayāna claims, rather than cultural issues which are not actually part of Vajrayāna at all.

Since you are a former Vajrayāna practitioner, whatever that means, you should know perfectly well that one's capacity to experience the results Vajrayāna claims to confer is entirely predicated on how well one maintains one's three vows, pratimokṣa vows, bodhisattva vows as well as samaya vows.

Whoever is disappointed by the Vajrayāna path either has not practiced enough, or has not maintained their vows well enough.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 8:52 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religious violence
Content:
Indrajala said:
As you're aware the fundamental premise of Vajrayāna is that one may attain buddhahood in this very life or failing that within a dozen or so lifetimes, as opposed to many countless lifetimes in other models of Mahāyāna.

Malcolm wrote:
If, and only if, you maintain your samaya.

Indrajala said:
In TB it is generally said that this is indeed possible and that it works like this in real life.

Malcolm wrote:
Some people are capable of maintaining their samaya.

Indrajala said:
There are also tulkus who are believed to have the ability to voluntarily come back to the world (as a human) for our benefit.

Malcolm wrote:
You have linked three things in a rather clumsy attempt at being "critical": Vajrayāna claims of rapidity, one instance where a tulku alleges he was repeatedly gang raped as a young boy, and the general competence of tulkus as enlightened administrators in order to cast doubt on Vajrayāna claims (addressed above).

However, items two and three have no relation to item one.

Aside from the fact that the Mañjuśrimulakapa Tantra makes predictions about reincarnations which appear in various countries including Tibet; the tulku system as it presently exists is not part of Vajrayāna theory in anyway. It is not mentioned in the tantras, nor the treatises and is a religious custom which first evolved in Tibet during the 13th century among the Kagyus. It continues solely because Tibetan society demands that it does.

Since there is no precedent for the tulku system in Vajrayāna, the effectiveness of tulkus as administrators, even the question of whether tulkus are actually awakened beings or not, is completely irrelevant to Vajrayāna claims about rapidity of its path.

Since there is no precedent for the tulku system in Vajrayāna, there is no reason to expect that tulkus are awakened beings, and no reason to expect that they would be able affectively manage any sexual abuse of minors in their care in any manner other then conventional ones. I.e., the actions need to be discovered, the perpetrators brought to justice, and so on.

This means that your complaints, apart from the fact that they are malicious gossip, amount to nothing more than a hill of beans.

The net effect of your unsubstantiated rumors and gossip is that some chicken-minded people will hear such things, and they too will then start spreading this gossip to others.

The fact is that there is no evidence at all of wide-spread systematic abuse of children, sexual or otherwise, in Tibetan monasteries in India. To claim otherwise without evidence is simply malicious. Of course, everyone is responsible for their own actions and their own karma. And since as Buddhists we all accept that karma is unerring, those who spread gossip, lies and half-truths can easily understand what kind of suffering they will experience from their own actions, not the least of which is that those who would formally have been inclined to lend them an ear, will not be well disposed to in future.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 11:01 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Indrajala said:
yet boys in monasteries of that same tradition are regularly raped...

Malcolm wrote:
You haven't established this, this is mere hearsay.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 7:07 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:


Gwenn Dana said:
And then there are also those who wish to achieve awakening in this life and this body and don´t follow Vajrayana.


Malcolm wrote:
If wishes were fishes...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 7:05 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:


Zhen Li said:
Well, funnily enough, I think it was Schopen who did point out that in fact things like dedication of merit were some of the earliest lay Buddhist practices, based upon inscriptions at stupas. So, I'm pretty sure we're unlike to lose those types of elements due to archaeology.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, as you may have heard, Jayarava is all fired up to prove that Buddha never existed at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 6:34 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Zhen Li said:
...
He did stop him, that's why we practice Buddhism today and not Devadattism.

Adi said:
So many would say but we're still waiting for Ven. Indrajala's answer and explanation of how he regards what he is now calling sacred myths.

Malcolm wrote:
While Schopen et al were quite right to point to a lack in Buddhist studies, i.e. that there was not sufficient attention being paid to archaeology, now the pendulum has swung to far. The idea that the canon record is of no value for understanding the nature of Buddhadharma or even the Buddha is patent nonsense.

Undoubtedly, one day we be reading Jeff going on and on about how rebirth and karma too cannot really be considered Buddha's teachings, blah, blah, blah...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 11th, 2014 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
JKhedrup said:
Why wasn't Lord Buddha able to stop Devadatta?

Indrajala said:
That's mythology, not real life today.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not a rebuttal to Khedrup's point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 10th, 2014 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
JKhedrup said:
There is something very disturbing to me about the current climate of Tibet bashing.

Malcolm wrote:
Especially since we never observe China bashing, Japan bashing, etc., on these boards. It's pretty sad, actually. We have the PRC, literally raping Tibet and sterilizing Tibetan women after forcing them to have late term abortions, resettling Tibetan nomad in concrete villages and restricting the number of cattle they can own, fencing off their traditional grazing lands, but no, we don't really hear about this.

What we here about instead are unfocused accusations against real bodhisattvas like HHDL to the effect that they, like the Catholics, are knowingly complicit in covering up sexual abuse of children in monasteries -- and this goes unremarked and uncorrected by the staff.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 10th, 2014 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:


Indrajala said:
I said there are samaya commitments in TB that if broken result in hell realms.

Malcolm wrote:
Primarily the one in which you physically harm your guru's body. One is born as Vajra Hell, which is just the Vajrayāna name for Avīci hell.

As Khedrup just pointed out, as for the others, there are many ways of maintaining one's samaya vows, which in any case are meant to assist one's practice. Since taking rebirth in the three lower realms is an eventual surety for all sentient beings who are not on a path, samaya vows are the skillful means we use in Vajrayāna to make sure that we do not become complacent about our paths and practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 10th, 2014 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
rory said:
...the sad fact that AIDS is rampant in Bhutan.

Malcolm wrote:
AIDS is "rampant in Bhutan"? Reality check:

In 2011, there were 246 reported cases of HIV in Bhutan, representing just over 0.3% of the population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_Bhutan " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bhutan and Ireland have the same percentage of people infected with AIDS. About three in every 1000 people. So I guess AIDS is "rampant" in Ireland too. The percentage of people infested with AIDS in Bhutan is the same as in all South Asia, 0.3%.

rory said:
So meanwhile all the enlightened lamas the present Dalai Lama, the various enlightened lamas and RInpoches past and present  knew all about it and did nothing.

Malcolm wrote:
Are you quite sure? Or do you just enjoy engaging in the baseless slander of bodhisattvas?

rory said:
...if you don't believe in the entire mythos of 'enlightened' masters you as a TB practitioner go to Avici hell.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such teaching.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 10th, 2014 at 3:30 AM
Title: Re: “The Secret Lamp of Wisdom”
Content:
Bhusuku said:
In the “Supreme Source” it is mentioned that one of the early sources for the 4 yogas of Semde is a tantra called “The Secret Lamp of Wisdom” ( ye shes gsang ba sgron ma rin po che man ngag gi rgyud ).

Malcolm wrote:
Which ironically is one of the root tantras of "klong sde".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 10th, 2014 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Gwenn Dana said:
Nobody wants to take Vajrayana away. But not everybody wants to accept Vajrayana´s "truths".

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna is a specific path, with a specific method. If you want to follow that path, you are free to. If you don't want to follow that path, you are free not to. But it is useful to know what a path entails prior to embarking upon it, no?

Those who wish to achieve awakening in this life and this body follow Vajrayāna, the rest may do as they please.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 10th, 2014 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
conebeckham said:
Could you explain number 8?
I've got to think number 9 would be hard to prove......everyone? Really?

Malcolm wrote:
# 8 means the harmer shows up in person, i.e. you can't go chasing after such beings or person, they have to be coming at you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 10th, 2014 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Indeed. In order to engage in abhicarya rites there must be two things: the limitless compassion of the practitioner, and the object of the rite must satisfy ten criteria which render them so evil that the only way they can experience liberation without going straight to hell for harming the Dharma is to be subject to a rite of liberation.

Sherab Dorje said:
Is there a source (in English) that outlines the ten criteria?  Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
zhing bcu - ten defects or the ten objects are:
1) The enemy of the Three Jewels
2) the enemy of the master
3) The samaya violator
4) the perverted one
6) the hostile one
7) The samaya enemy with a wicked character
8) The one arriving to the congregation
9) the harmer of everyone
10) the three lower realms

In order to be considered a candidate Vajrayāna extreme rendition, the person or being must satisfy all ten criteria, otherwise the act is nothing more than common act of killing that will send the doer to lower realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 10th, 2014 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Andrew108 said:
One of my teachers has been very keen on building a democratic community. His teacher before him built an unusual community in Tibet in that it was open and democratic.

Malcolm wrote:
Chang Chub Dorje did not build a community, one sprang up around him.

Andrew108 said:
One wonders why there were not more of these types of communities in Tibet? What was stopping the enlightened masters from implementing this kind of change / social justice?

Malcolm wrote:
There were plenty of such communities in Tibet, gathered around realized masters.

We should not, however, fall into the trap of assuming that institutions are by their very nature corrupt. There were of course many excellent monasteries in Tibet prior to 1959 and while I am sure humans in them has all to human faults and problems, there was also a great deal of good that came out of the Tibetan monastic system, just in case anyone has forgotten this.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 10th, 2014 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
theanarchist said:
Devotion and pure perception should come from a deep respect for the qualities of that teacher and gratitude for what he or she gives you.

Malcolm wrote:
That is really not how it is taught in the tantras if by pure perception this allows you to view your guru acts as anything other than buddha activities.

Of course, this is a practice. It is not perfected in a day.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: I thought Buddhism wasn't about threatening people with
Content:
The Way said:
Regarding the video in the OP, I believe it was created by Wat Dhammakaya, a group that should not in any way be considered mainline "Theravada". Many Theravadin practitioners over on Dhamma Wheel have compared it to Scientology or even outright labelled it as a cult. Having the conviction that your actions have consequences is far, far different than threatening people with a version of Hell that looks like a Sims expansion pack.

Also shoot, I apologize for resurrecting such an old topic. That's google search for ya.

Mort432 said:
Also gonna gravedig here a little bit, and possibly be a little off topic, but I spoke with my Shingon teacher (who is an ordained lama) and he said that the concept of hell/the narakas in Buddhism is completely false, at least within Shingon.


Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha definitely taught the hell realms. You can read about them in the Sutta Nipatta, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
rory said:
But try and say that about Tibet! Denial denial and denial....it's very sad.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, since there were no soldier monks in Tibet, denying their existence is similar to denying hair on a tortoise, i.e. it's true there were never soldier monks in Tibet.

rory said:
Tibet was a feudal state...

Malcolm wrote:
No, it wasn't. It was something else entirely different.

rory said:
and after 1 dharma debate withdrew from Chinese intellectual currents unlike the Koreans, Vietnamese Japanese, etc who particpated in cross-cultural exchange and development.

Malcolm wrote:
To begin with the debate was not between Tibetan and Chinese protagonists; it was between Indians and Chinese protagonists, sponsored by the Tibetan king, in imitation of similar debates in India. The debate actually occurred over three years, via letters, though people often imagine that it was a one-off smack down with Kamalashila emerging the proclaimed victor. In reality, the account of the debate which later Tibetans inherited was penned by a scion of the Ba clan, who were part of the anti-Chinese faction within the Tibetan aristocracy.

However the debate turned out, and there is no real clear answer to this question, the Tibetans decided that Chinese Buddhism did not represent the latest developments and currents of Indian Buddhism, and so after about 50 years of experience with Chinese Buddhism decided to devote their attentions to the Buddhism being taught at the great universtities in India, Nalanda, Somanatha, Vikramashila and so on instead. In other words, they did a perfectly understandable thing: they decided that the Buddhism they found in India was more authentic than the Buddhism they were being introduced to by the Chinese monastics stationed in Lhasa. It is unlikely that the best and the brightest were send to Lhasa, since the Chinese considered Tibet a barbarian backwater.

Moreover, the Tibetans were attracted to the ritualism of Yoga tantra (there was no anuttarayoga appellation at this time), and they had a shrine built at Samye where the Vajradhātu maṇḍala practice could be regularly performed with a special image of Mahāvairocana crafted for that purpose. It still exists at Samye. The influence of the practice Sarvatathāgatatattva samgraha tantra pervades all of Tibetan Buddhism right down to this day.

Part of the lack of interest of Tibetans with currents in Chinese Buddhism also can be attributed to the fact that Chinese Buddhism was largely destroyed during the reign of the Taoist emperor, Wuzong in 845. As a result of the economic decline of Asia from 845 onward, and due to the chaos of the Five Dynasties period, there really was no Buddhism in China for that could interest Tibetans for the simple reason that Chinese Buddhism was institutionally destroyed by its own people.

Therefore, as Tibet society recovered its own economic stability in the mid 10th century, Yeshe Ö (947–1024 or 959 - 1040), the great, great grandson of Langdarma, the last of the Yarlung Kings, initiated a revival of Buddhist transmissions from India by sending a number of young men in Kashmir to learn Sanskrit and translate texts.

So in fact your castigation of Tibetans for not engaging in cultural exchange misses the mark completely. The Tibetans controlled Central Asia during most of the 8th and 9th centuries, and they maintained constant ties with India and Nepal from the late 9th century onwards. The Tibetans above all were great traders. They simply were more interested in what they saw in India than what they saw in China, as with China they had a neighbor with whom they had had constant struggles. The Tibetans never had any wars with any Indian kingdoms at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book
Content:
pensum said:
The Olds aren't the only ones to write a book on togal and make it available, there is also this bizarre shoddy contribution: https://www.amazon.ca/Vajrasattva-Secret-Wisdoms-Trekcho-Togal/dp/1491863684/. Rife with typos and grammatically bizarre phrasing, and not to be trusted in the least. Here's a sample copied exactly as it appears in the Amazon preview:
Rgyun-gyi ting-nge-'dzin, the same state in Tibetan definition is such. Rgyun-gyi has in depth meaning. Self existing pristine Rigpa. Self arising, self ignited, self originated openness of ecstatic Rigpa. Self, here is not the composite of impermanent elements. It is one's own, without grasping, if anything, own power, own guidance.


Anybody know anything about the apparently illiterate author, Richard Chambers Prescott?

Malcolm wrote:
He definitely has a bone to pick with the Nyingmapas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Indrajala said:
Seldom were Buddhist clerics either in China or Japan in positions of significant political authority, which is unlike in Tibet where Lamas in charge had to utilize violence in order to advance the interests of the state.

Malcolm wrote:
If you carefully examine Tibetan history, you will discover rather swiftly that Lamas were rarely in positions of significant political authority either, the 5th and the 13th being notable exceptions.

For example, after the death of the 5th, the affairs of state were conducted by the regent, Desrid Sangyas Gyatso, a lay person his whole life. During most of the 18th century, and most of the 19th, the Dalai Lamas played no significant role in governing Tibet. Even the 7th's government lasted only 6 years, from 1751 to his death in 1757. From 1707 to this period of time, Central Tibet has a variety of regimes and it was a time of intense political instability.

There were five Dalai Lamas between the 7th and the 13th in a space of 120 years.

Furthermore, "Tibet" is a big place. Lhasa never controlled Kham (always ruled by independent kings) and Amdo (ruled by a mixture of Muslim, Mongol and Chinese warlords at various times), lost Ladakh to Kashmir in the 18th century, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Indrajala said:
I just take what I want from it and leave the rest (like the swan who separates the cream from the water).

Malcolm wrote:
Or perhaps like a musk hunter who takes the gland and leaves behind the corpse.


theanarchist said:
Swans can't seperate cream from water.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a traditional metaphor...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is also a srog gtad, an entrustment rite for worldly protectors.

Konchog1 said:
I can't find anything in English on srog gtad. Can you explain it briefly please? What's the difference between worshiping a protector with and without a srog gtad? Thank you.

Malcolm wrote:
Wisdom protectors, for example, Mahakala, generally speaking have everything from full empowerments down to permissions.

A srog gtad on the other hand represents making a contract with a worldly protector to perform services for you in exchange for offerings. It is a deal, basically. It is a practice that does not come from Indian tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 8:19 PM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
There is what is called a gtor dbang in Nyingma, where the torma is blessed as the basis of the empowerment, not a mandala.


dakini_boi said:
Could you say more about the Tor Wang, Malcolm?  What is the significance of using a torma instead of a mandala?

Malcolm wrote:
The way it is presented in the Sakya tradition of Vajrakilaya, the torwang comes from the empowerment of the lower activities. Usually, the torma empowerment includes the body, speech, mind, qualities and activities of a the deity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Indrajala said:
I just take what I want from it and leave the rest (like the swan who separates the cream from the water).

Malcolm wrote:
Or perhaps like a musk hunter who takes the gland and leaves behind the corpse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 7:53 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is well known. Magical battles between Buddhists and Bonpos continued until at least the 12th century.

Indrajala said:
So, the four immeasurables are to be taught while simultaneously engaging in magical battles to kill opponents? Is there no contradiction here? Where are the enlightened qualities?

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed. In order to engage in abhicarya rites there must be two things: the limitless compassion of the practitioner, and the object of the rite must satisfy ten criteria which render them so evil that the only way they can experience liberation without going straight to hell for harming the Dharma is to be subject to a rite of liberation.


Indrajala said:
Yes, some Tibetans indeed practiced animal sacrifice, how widespread this practice was is subject to much debate because quite frankly, we really know very little about Tibetan religion prior to the seventh century.


According to the cited Chinese source, they did it every year and three years as a way of renewing their oaths.

That sounds rather widespread and common.

Malcolm wrote:
It sounds vague and almost completely uninformative. What is the context? what is the rite? Under what circumstances? In any case, this is pre-Buddhist religion we are talking about. That was largely stamped out and driven into the border lands by the later Yarlung Kings.

Indrajala said:
The Tang histories also display almost no Buddhist sympathies.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, they weren't really written by people who were on the scene, were they?

Indrajala said:
So, what kind of Buddhism existed in the Yarlung period?

Malcolm wrote:
State Buddhism centered around Samye and Lhasa.

Indrajala said:
Magical battles resulting in people being killed and court officials taking oaths with animal sacrifices?

Malcolm wrote:
As explained above, any abhicarya rites Padmasambhava engaged in were engaged in with the criteria listed above. The practice of animal sacrifice was ended during the reign of Trisrong Detsen.

Indrajala said:
Without the strong sponsorship of the Yarlung kings, this would have never happened.
A lot of Yarlung kings were opportunistic warlords (the same can be said about early Chinese Tang emperors like Taizong especially too, but nobody calls him a Dharma King as far as I know).

Malcolm wrote:
Not all of the Yarlung Kings are counted as Dharmarājas, only Srongtsan Gampo, who built the original Potala; Trisong Detsan, who definitely invited Shantarakshita and Padmasambhava, and who may have patronized Chan ( http://earlytibet.com/2007/11/13/tibetan-chan-i-the-emperors-chan/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), and Ralapacan, who oversaw one of the world's great translations projects.

Indrajala said:
The opinion of some major scholars is that Buddhism offered an attractive model for social cohesion and in turn state consolidation...

So, while there were some devout Buddhists, Buddhism was utilized by the state for less benevolent purposes.

Malcolm wrote:
What can be more benevolent that social cohesion and undermining the old Bon families with allegiance to Zhang Zhung?

Indrajala said:
In light of that, why speak of Dharma Kings in the Yarlung period, or have images of them to be venerated?

Malcolm wrote:
Because the three Dharmarājas of Tibet were responsible for the importation of Dharma to Tibet, whatever their personal reasons may have been, honest or sinister, however they may be. Moreover, the later narratives about the three Dharmarājas provided generations of Tibetan a national identity based on the importation of Buddhism into their culture and grounded the Tibetan people in a Buddhist identity in a way that few other peoples in history have been so affected by Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Lotus_Bitch said:
Instead of focusing exclusively on "institutional religious violence": why not divulge on [inter-sectarian] political intrigue?

Malcolm wrote:
Well first, we haven't really established that there was institutional religious violence in Tibet. The thread of the title is very misleading, created by one of the mods.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 4:30 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
As already pointed out: the citation you provided was sensationalized by use of the term "death squad". It was provided from a work by an academic with no expertise in Tibetan history apart from an ability to read English. It was provided with barely any context at all in Sperling's paper which I provided, from where it was derived by your former source.

mañjughoṣamaṇi said:
Sperling's specialty is the history of Tibetan-Chinese relations and he relies on Chinese and Tibetan documents.  He offers courses in Tibetan and the use of Chinese as a research tool for Tibetan studies at Indiana University.  He can read more than English, even if the piece in question was was sensationalist.  This is of course a point aside from Jeff engaging in the denigration of Tibetans again, downplaying the grotesque violence of Chinese regimes, and the destabilizing effects of Qing intrigues in Mongol and Tibetan lands.

Malcolm wrote:
Todd, I wasn't talking about Sperling, I was talking about Johan Elverskog, whose expertise is Mongolian, not Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Indrajala said:
Let's look at early Tibetan history then.

According to Tāranātha (1575-1634) in his biography of Padmasambhava, Padmasambhava himself used his magic to kill an opponent of Buddhism. Whether it really happened like this or not is unclear, but it would suggest violent hostility between proponents of and opponents to Buddhism in this period.

Malcolm wrote:
This is well known. Magical battles between Buddhists and Bonpos continued until at least the 12th century.


Indrajala said:
The Tun-Huang Chronicles state the following:
...the paternal subjects rebelled; the maternal subjects revolved. ... The father gNam ri was given poison and died. The son Srong btsan firstly wiped out the families of the rebels and the prisoners.
Meanwhile Butön Rinchen Drup (Wyl. bu ston rin chen grub) (1290-1364) relates the following:
...Thirteen years of age he ascended the throne and brought under his power all the petty chiefs of the borderland who offered him presents and sent their messages (of submission).

Malcolm wrote:
These two accounts are not necessarily in conflict.

Indrajala said:
This suggests to me an intentional reworking of past history to suit contemporary Buddhist interests.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, this definitely happened, but not for the reasons you seem to imagine.

Indrajala said:
Whereas Songstän Gampo was a violent despot

Malcolm wrote:
This is a bit of an exaggeration.

Indrajala said:
Actually, according to contemporary Tang dynasty reports, the Tibetans practiced animal sacrifice. The Old Book of Tang 舊唐書 has the following:

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, some Tibetans indeed practiced animal sacrifice, how widespread this practice was is subject to much debate because quite frankly, we really know very little about Tibetan religion prior to the seventh century. There is no reason to assume that Srongtsan Gampo was a deeply religious man, when the historical record is examined. However, he is credited with bring the practice of Avalokiteshvara to Tibet and Nyingma sources paint him as an emanation of that Bodhisattva.

Indrajala said:
All this leads to questions about the extent or concern for Buddhism in the Yarlung period.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no doubt about how active Tibetans were in bringing Dharma to Tibet in this period. The vast majority of sūtras were translated in the late imperial period, ending with the death of Ralpachan in 838.

Tibetan accounts paint Trisong Detsen as a king too busy to practice, but nevertheless an interested patron of Dharma.

Ralpacan on the other hand was quite zealous and religious, and like most religious zealots, proved to be a rather incompetent ruler, his downfall hastened by economic discontent due to the very generous relationship he had with monastic establishment.This provoked the backlash amongst the aristocracy that resulted in the assassination of Ralpacan, and the ascension of Langdarma, who tried to tax the monasteries (which resulted in his own assassination).

However, the fact that Tibetans were enthusiastically adopting Buddhism is born out by the fact that by 1000, almost all traces of any organized pre-Buddhist religion in Tibet had completely vanished. Without the strong sponsorship of the Yarlung kings, this would have never happened.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan institutional religous violence
Content:
Adi said:
So far no one has provided any evidence that this is true.

Indrajala said:
I did cite an academic work detailing orders purportedly given by the Fifth Dalai Lama to violently wipe out his opponents.

Malcolm wrote:
As already pointed out: the citation you provided was sensationalized by use of the term "death squad". It was provided from a work by an academic with no expertise in Tibetan history apart from an ability to read English. It was provided with barely any context at all in Sperling's paper which I provided, from where it was derived by your former source.

All we can really glean from the citation, knowing what we know about the war that the King of Tsang thrust upon the 5th when he was a very young man, not that much younger than you, is that during the 1660's there continued to be pockets of unrest by dissenters whom 5th felt that had abandoned their obligation to follow the rule of law, which now squarely rested with his government.

No context at all was given in your original citation. What can we expect to learn from this apart from your desire to downplay religious violence in China and Japan in comparison to secular violence ordered out by a sovereign ruler under the pretext that it contradicted the "the values of Tibetan Institutions". As we know, the values of any Government are to prioritize political stability.

No mention was made by Sperling of the numerous qualms the 5th expressed through out his career in his autobiography at the unpleasant necessities of his position (one he in fact never sought out and could not in any case relinquish) save one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in Japan they had entire armies of monastics armed to the teeth, who wielded enormous power.

Indrajala said:
Actually it is unclear exactly how many of them were ordained as monks in either the Tendai bodhisattva-renunciate model or otherwise. So while they were nominally called monks, it is unclear how many through the centuries were ordained as such.

Malcolm wrote:
Considering your views on ordination, this hardly seems like a major objection to my point.

Indrajala said:
Also given the proportion of sōhei to the greater monastic population, they would have been a small minority all things considered. Aside from a few major battles, most sōhei it seems got involved in petty skirmishes and burned down monasteries or shrines. Not morally justifiable perhaps, but they never ran the country.

Malcolm wrote:
My point of course is that these were violent religious militants of a kind completely unknown in Tibet.

While wars in Tibet often broke down along sect lines, they were never carried out by religious people, though religious people were frequently victims of violence that generally occurred along sectarian lines. Generally speaking, in Tibet when some aristocratic family decided to go to war with another one, the monasteries they patronized would suffer if they lost, for example, the Karma Kagyu, Jonangpas and Sakyapas suffered when Karma Tenkyong lost to the Ganden Phodrang. Since Karma Tenkyong was actually the aggressor in the war for the control of Tsang (following in his father's footsteps) in the mid 17th century, the actions of the Ganden Phodrang must considered in that light. Plus, the 5th Dalai Lama was quite young, a man of a mere 25 years when Gushri Khan executed Karma Tenkyong (1642).

In fact the 5th was the first real religious ruler of Tibet. While Chogyal Phagpha was nominally the ruler of Tibet, he spent little time in Tibet, mostly being in Beijing with Kublai Khan.

So it is simply wrong to characterize the wars in Tibet as being wars brought by one religious establishment against another. In general, wars in Tibet were fought by aristocratic clans by soldiers and never monks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 9th, 2014 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
jiashengrox said:
There is no explicit instruction or mention in both treatises that the master has to be enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
No, merely in the latter that one must regard one's guru as a Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: H.E. Beru Khyentse Rinpoche
Content:
Gyaltsen Tashi said:
Dear all,

I am thinking of attending this Dharma event with tsog and two empowerments over two days:

http://www.khyenkong-tharjay.org/EventMay2014 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Upcoming Programme for 2014

Friday 9th May 2014
to
Sunday 11th May 2014

Guru Rinpoche Tsog Bum (with Guru Rinpoche empowerment) & Kurukulle Grand Puja (with Kurukulle empowerment)

Venue:
Ngee Ann Auditorium

Teochew Building
97 Tank Road
Singapore 238066

Bus Service(s): 123

Nearest MRT: Dhoby Ghaut

However, I am not familiar with H.E. Beru Khyentse Rinpoche. I only know he is recognised as the 16th Karmapa, which I take as the minimum standard when considering to take empowerments.

Here is his wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Beru_Khyentse " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please advise me today as the event starts tomorrow.

Regards,
Gyaltsen Tashi

Malcolm wrote:
The Guru Rinpoche empowerment will be from Konchog Chidu, I am almost certain. Kurukulla probably from Chogyur Lingpa's collection of termas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Indrajala said:
Compared to Tibetan Buddhism, in my estimation at least, you see less religious violence in other forms of Mahāyāna, such as in China and Japan. ... Admittedly, there were warrior monks in Japan (most notably in Tendai perhaps) who would torch the monasteries of rival sects, though these were small scale skirmishes.

kirtu said:
Tendai was nearly wiped out as a result of this.  And Soto Zen struck out for the hills and mountains.  Literally.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in Japan they had entire armies of monastics armed to the teeth, who wielded enormous power.

The phenomena of militarized clergy never existed in Tibet, even with the existence of monastic police (Dob dobs, restricted to Lhasa and mainly active during the Monlam Chenmo).

When there were conflicts between Sakya and Drikung, in general, in the case of Drikungpas, they had patrons among Mongols, and so they used Mongol troops to sack the main monastery at Sakya. The Sakyas, if I understand correctly, used local soldiers when they retaliated.

The Ganden Phodrang under the 5th had a standing army. However, by the nineteenth century and 200 hundred years of being finlandized by the Qing, Lhasa had no real army to speak of. For this reason the 13th tried to create a modern army to repel the invasion that he knew was coming from China.

The fact is all the hostilities in Central Tibet were provoked by the King of Tibet, Karma Tenkyong. Karma Tenkyong allied himself with the Bonpo King of Beri, Donyo Dorje. A letter was intercepted by the Gelugpas indicating a conspiracy between Karma Tenkyong and Donyo Dorje, etc. This Wiki page is based on reliable books:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_Tenkyong " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

This page is a little less well written but also has useful information which outlines the war for control of Tibet between the Tsang Dynasty and the Gangdan Phodrang.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Dalai_Lama " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:



theanarchist said:
That's based on the fact that unless you develop pure perception you will not obtain anything. That does not mean that you become an undiscerning, idolizing groupie of a guru rock star and are then rewarded with siddhis for this self brainwashing.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so it is only so long as the Guru conforms to your expectations that you are to have a pure perception of that teacher. Right?

If Naropa or Mila had that attitude they would have never developed siddhis.

jiashengrox said:
And that is why it has been explicitly qualified in, say Maitreya's Ornament of Mahayana Sutras, or Fifty Verses (for tantric master).


Malcolm wrote:
Huh? Qualified how? What do you mean? When Naropa meant Tilopa, Tilopa was cooking fish alive.

Of course the Gurupañcāśikā states:
The intelligent disciple does not take as a guru
one who has these faults:
resentment, 
arrogance, desire and lack of restraint.

So how are we to understand Naropa's decision to rely on Tilopa despite this advice from the Gurupañcāśikā?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
2. There is a slight logical loophole. Not criticizing one's guru doesn't imply viewing the guru as the buddha.
Nevertheless:

The Vajramāla Tantra states:
Whoever thinks there is difference between
the guru and Vajrasattva,
he or she will not obtain the signs
of gathering siddhis.


theanarchist said:
That's based on the fact that unless you develop pure perception you will not obtain anything. That does not mean that you become an undiscerning, idolizing groupie of a guru rock star and are then rewarded with siddhis for this self brainwashing.

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so it is only so long as the Guru conforms to your expectations that you are to have a pure perception of that teacher. Right?

If Naropa or Mila had that attitude they would have never developed siddhis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Gwenn Dana said:
If you snuck this page into the Old Testament probably nobody would notice.

Malcolm wrote:
It is standard Indian hyperbole which basically means "it is really, really, really, really, really, really important to your path not to criticize your Guru."

jiashengrox said:
Two things:

1. The context of the verses from the Fifty Verses of Guru Devotion is based on the assumption of a qualified spiritual teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed.


jiashengrox said:
2. There is a slight logical loophole. Not criticizing one's guru doesn't imply viewing the guru as the buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless:

The Vajramāla Tantra states:
Whoever thinks there is difference between
the guru and Vajrasattva,
he or she will not obtain the signs
of gathering siddhis.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Gwenn Dana said:
If you snuck this page into the Old Testament probably nobody would notice.

Malcolm wrote:
It is standard Indian hyperbole which basically means "it is really, really, really, really, really, really important to your path not to criticize your Guru."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
smcj said:
The guru-yoga teachings do not allow for criticism..

theanarchist said:
That's complete nonsense and a misunderstanding of vajrayana pure perception/devotion

Malcolm wrote:
The Gurupañcāśik ā states:

If one criticizes the master, 
that great confusion will cause death 
because of epidemics, harms, 
spirits, contagious disease, poison.
Having been slain by 
a king, fire, poison snakes, 
water, dāḳinis, thieves, 
spirits and misguiders, 
sentient beings will go to hell.

And:

The master’s mind
must never be disturbed. 
If one becomes confused, 
one will surely roast in hell. 
Whatever fearful hells
are shown such as Avīci and so on,
those who criticize the master
are correct explained as being located there.

The Kṛṣṇayamāripañjikā states:
Hearing even a single verse
if one does not hold that person as a guru, 
after being born one hundred times as a dog, 
one will be born as a butcher.

So, it is pretty clear that Indian ideal of guru yoga is to hold the guru as being above all reproach.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 9:00 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Indrajala said:
Compared to Tibetan Buddhism, in my estimation at least, you see less religious violence in other forms of Mahāyāna, such as in China and Japan.

Malcolm wrote:
Seriously? What about Sōhei? This sort of thing never existed in Tibet.

Indrajala said:
East Asian Mahāyāna actually has a better track record historically than Tibetan Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 8:54 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:


jiashengrox said:
How would you look at the rise and fall of, say the Sakya empire, from the start of Sapan and Chogyal Phagpa being the preceptor for the Mongol emperors, till the decline of Sakya empire and the rise of the Phagmodrukpa Dynasty?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Sapan died in a foreign country and Phagpa was murdered at 44. The Sakya hegemony was not run by nice people, from what I understand. It was not governed by men of the caliber of Sapan and Phagpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Which atrocities, by whom?

kirtu said:
The Sakya Drikung War

Malcolm wrote:
And what "atrocities" were committed by either side during this conflict? Names and events please, not vague accusations of blame.


kirtu said:
the destruction of some monasteries mostly during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama,  the war between the Karma Kagyu and the Gelug.

Malcolm wrote:
Which monasteries, you mean like Taranatha's monastery which had a full compliment of Jonang monks practicing Jonang lineages?

kirtu said:
These events are well documented.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so well as you seem to believe.

kirtu said:
If the 5th Dalai Lama wrote an edict ordering violence against people (as Indrajala posted) then that is a serious problem.

Malcolm wrote:
Or, if the Fifth is your guru, it is bodhisattva activity.

In any case, if you read the Sperling paper, you can see that the 5th attempted peaceful means before sending in his soldiers to quell a rebellion in Tsang.

What is left out of the Sperling piece is that the 5th was very conflicted about the secular actions demanded of him as a secular ruler. His qualms are spread through his 4 volume autobiography. As a ruler, he had to make recourse to the stick. It's what rulers must do. He however did not seek power, he was installed as a young boy and was at the mercy of his ministers and inherited a political world that was not of his making, though he left an indelible mark.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 9:24 AM
Title: Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book
Content:
smcj said:
Plus their famous natural spring hot tubs on the cliff above the sea. They are beautiful at night.

Malcolm wrote:
Clothing optional.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 7:08 AM
Title: Re: H.H. Sakya Trizin in Canada May 2014
Content:
conebeckham said:
TBRC.....
this is from the Sakya KaBum...

http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O8LS4784%7CO8LS47848LS5280$W00EGS1017151 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this is from Khyentse Wangpo

http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O00AG016%7CO00AG0161GS37000$W21807 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure which one is more in use.....Malcolm can likely answer that.


Malcolm wrote:
The first is the long sadhana.

The latter is an instruction, not a sadhana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 6:27 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
kirtu said:
Come on - the atrocities that the Tibetan institutions committed are well documented.

Malcolm wrote:
Which atrocities, by whom?

pensum said:
Here are a few:
"Judicial mutilation - principally the gouging out of eyes, and the cutting off of hands or feet - was formalized under the Sakya school as part of the 13th century Tibetan legal code, "

Heinrich Harrer: "in the days of the fifth Dalai Lama (in the eighteenth century), and even under the thirteenth (1900- 33), Tibetans still had their hands and feet chopped off."

"Whipping was legal and common as punishment in Tibet including in the 20th century, also for minor infractions and outside judicial process. Whipping could also have fatal consequences, as in the case of the trader Gyebo Sherpa subjected to the severe corca whipping for selling cigarettes. He died from his wounds 2 days later in the Potala prison. Tashi Tsering, a self-described critic of traditional Tibetan society, records being whipped as a 13 year old for missing a performance as a dancer in the Dalai Lama's dance troop in 1942, until the skin split and the pain became excruciating."

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Tibet_controversy#Human_rights_in_Tibet

Malcolm wrote:
"Whipping was common....", really, says who? A Wiki page?

"Judicial mutilation - principally the gouging out of eyes, and the cutting off of hands or feet - was formalized under the Sakya school as part of the 13th century Tibetan legal code, "

This an unattributed claim.

There were a total of five executions carried out by the Tibetan government in the 19th century.

Capital punishment was really quite rare in old Tibet, and not the frequent occurrence it is today under Communist rule.

Most of this page is bullshit Chinese propaganda. Everything composed by Grunfeld for example, is sheer crap fed to him by his Chinese handlers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: Complete Togal Instruction in Unrestricted New Book
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
BTW, it looks like Lama Drimed is teaching at Esalen in September:
http://www.esalen.org/workshop/week-september-14-21/lotus-borne-perception-awareness-teachings-tibetan-buddhism-and


theanarchist said:
At a minimum of 900 dollars for one week


Malcolm wrote:
$900.00 – $4,975.00 (based on accommodation type)


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:


kirtu said:
Come on - the atrocities that the Tibetan institutions committed are well documented.

Malcolm wrote:
Which atrocities, by whom?

kirtu said:
Indrajala has made a devastating point.

Malcolm wrote:
No, he hasn't. He quoted a sensationalized citation from a paper written by Eliot Sperling.

http://info-buddhism.com/Orientalism_Violence_Tibetan_Buddhism_Elliot_Sperling.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

kirtu said:
The term "death squad" is a little extreme.

Malcolm wrote:
Unfortunately it's not.
Yes, it is. It's ridiculous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: H.H. Sakya Trizin in Canada May 2014
Content:
DechenNamdrol said:
FYI, I was told today that they didn't manage to have the Chakrasamvara sadhana translated in time for this weekend, so they will not be supplying a sadhana to practice with.


Malcolm wrote:
The Luipa tradition is the most complex.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:


Indrajala said:
If we go back to India, violence was employed in an unapologetic fashion in the late period against Brahman aggression. You've read Verardi's book, right?

Malcolm wrote:
I did not finish it.



Indrajala said:
If there were realized bodhisattvas at the helm in Tibet before the invasion, why didn't they foresee and prevent the invasion?

Malcolm wrote:
Many Lamas did for see the invasion and tried hard to prevent it — some, like the 16th Karmapa left well in advance of it on purpose. In fact, your lack of familiarity with the Tibetan anxiety over being invaded, first by Kuomintang forces, and then by the Communists is a little surprising because it is well documented.

Indrajala said:
Moreover, why were so many serfs mistreated by their Lama overlords?

Malcolm wrote:
According to whom? Were there serfs in Tibet? I don't think so. Not by the definition normally imagined when people use the term. You need to read Authenticating Tibet: Answers to China's 100 Questions

Indrajala said:
The conditions of many common indentured servants in Tibet before the invasion is well documented. This is why so many of them joined the Communists to destroy monasteries.

Malcolm wrote:
By whom? How many is "so many"?


Indrajala said:
Whose claims are you referring to?
Well you've claimed lineage founders were realized. In Tibetan Buddhism it is hoped that at least some of the contemporary leadership is realized.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn't claim that. I pointed out that all of these masters that I listed were considered to be highly realized in their respective schools.



Indrajala said:
Papal infallibility didn't work out so well for the Catholics in the end.

Malcolm wrote:
It's completely different. There is no pope. And this is not a rule, it is a practice. One is expected to feel that way, but in widely recognized reality is that it is an aspiration.

It is not the case that everyone is required to recognize HHDL as a buddha since he is not everyone's root guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 1:08 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In fact, as far as Vajrayāna is concerned, one must believe that one's root guru is an actual Buddha, and that includes all the lineage masters, if one is to gain realization oneself.

dzogchungpa said:
I have no doubt most or all of the texts and teachers say that, and I have a lot of faith in Vajrayana, but honestly I can't see how such a statement could be established.

Malcolm wrote:
As in proven? It cannot be proven. But it is indeed how it is taught in every Vajrayāna tradition in Tibet.

Lower tantra does not contain the practice of Guruyoga, so this is why, Jeff, such teachings are absent in Shingon, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 8th, 2014 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Indrajala said:
]If you look at the history of late Indian Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism, it is difficult to believe there were many "realized" people in charge for the simple fact that these institutions often clearly turned their backs against their own stated values and aims by engaging in all manner of harmful activities against beings.

Malcolm wrote:
Who, what, when, where?

Indrajala said:
The violence and religious conflict would suggest realized bodhisattvas were not at the helm. The serfs and other violently repressed commoners of Tibet before the PRC invasion also lived under brutal tyrants who often derived their authority from religion.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, who, what, when and where?

Indrajala said:
In the case of Tibetan Buddhism, one can look at the life of the fifth Dalai Lama and compare claims with historical facts

Malcolm wrote:
Whose claims are you referring to?

Nevertheless, if the Fifth Dalai Lama is one of your lineage gurus, you should regard him as a Buddha, and his questionable acts as skillful means to tame beings. That is the Vajrayāna way. This is a difficult point for many people. It is better perhaps not to adopt a king as one's guru.

The term "death squad" is a little extreme.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
conebeckham said:
Malcolm-
Are you familiar with nyur dze Yeshe Gonpo nyingshuk?  I suppose that's not a true srog gtad, though it's called srog gi rgya can?

It, and many of the Shangpa jenangs, include tor-wangs.  Are you saying this is Kongtrul being influenced by Nyingma?

Malcolm wrote:
I would say that Shangpa empowerments in general are heavily colored by Khyungpo Naljor's Nyingma past.


conebeckham said:
Not Kongtrul's, eh?


Malcolm wrote:
No, since Shangpa transmissions exist in other schools than Kagyu. Then there is the fact that they all, for the most part, pass through another Nyingmapa, Thangthon Gyalpo.

Don't get me wrong, I am not dissing Shangpa, it is just that gtor ma empowerments do not exist in the New Tantras at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, indeed this seems to be the case. Of course, one assumes that some of these teachers actually did attain realization.

Indrajala said:
It feels reassuring to believe in it, doesn't it?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of reassurance. In fact, as far as Vajrayāna is concerned, one must believe that one's root guru is an actual Buddha, and that includes all the lineage masters, if one is to gain realization oneself.

It is fine to be a skeptic. But that attitude is best left for academics who [for whatever perverse reasons] study "Buddhism" rather than Buddhadharma, people who lack faith in such things as rebirth, karma and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
conebeckham said:
Malcolm-
Are you familiar with nyur dze Yeshe Gonpo nyingshuk?  I suppose that's not a true srog gtad, though it's called srog gi rgya can?

It, and many of the Shangpa jenangs, include tor-wangs.  Are you saying this is Kongtrul being influenced by Nyingma?

Malcolm wrote:
I would say that Shangpa empowerments in general are heavily colored by Khyungpo Naljor's Nyingma past.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 8:42 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So, when we have some realized westerners, then maybe we will have some western lineages — but until then, I expect not.

Indrajala said:
Plenty of eminent Buddhist teachers become "realized" after they die thanks to their hagiographies.

So we'll just wait for that to happen with some western teachers.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, indeed this seems to be the case. Of course, one assumes that some of these teachers actually did attain realization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:


conebeckham said:
Srog gtad are not only for "worldly protectors," I think....perhaps mainly so.

Malcolm wrote:
They are strictly for worldly protectors. There is no need for such entrustments when it comes to wisdom protectors.

conebeckham said:
And Sarma traditions have gtor dbangs as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, gtor dbangs are strictly a Nyingma thing, their presence in Kagyu and Sakya is derived from Nyingma.
No, they are synonyms for the most part. Sometimes you see the term applied to rites for wisdom protectors, but it not perfectly correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they have many retreats to do, many mandalas and rites to learn and so on.

Indrajala said:
The Tibetans created their own lineages and programs to go with them. The west could just as well take much from TB and create their own lineages with different programs, thus having "lineage heads" with different requirements.

Kukai and Shingon likewise did the same thing. They developed their own programs.

Malcolm wrote:
Lineages are not "created", they evolve. In order to have a lineage, one has to have a realized person at the head of that lineage. For example, in Sakya there is Sachen, Sonam Tsemo, Dragpa Gyaltsen, Sapan, and Phagpa as well as Kunga Zangpo and Losal Gyatso for the two main subsects of Sakya, Ngor and Tshar; Marpa, Mila and Gampopa for Kagyu, with various realized masters sitting at the eight of the subsects of Kagyu; for Nyingma there are tertons or tulku lines who sit at the head of each lineage; For Gelugpa, there is Tsongkhapa, etc.

So, when we have some realized westerners, then maybe we will have some western lineages — but until then, I expect not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 8:02 AM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:


conebeckham said:
Srog gtad are not only for "worldly protectors," I think....perhaps mainly so.

Malcolm wrote:
They are strictly for worldly protectors. There is no need for such entrustments when it comes to wisdom protectors.

conebeckham said:
And Sarma traditions have gtor dbangs as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, gtor dbangs are strictly a Nyingma thing, their presence in Kagyu and Sakya is derived from Nyingma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 5:55 AM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Let us abandon Tibetan for the moment.

There are basically four kinds of initiations:

abhiṣekas [dbang skur, empowerment] = this is your full empowerment, generally takes two days.
adhiṣṭhānas [byin brlabs, blessing] = this a way of conferring the four empowerments in a short hand, called "don dbang" in Nyingma.
anujñāta [rjes gnang, permission] = this is a type of ritual derived from end of an abhiṣeka where various kinds of permissions are granted, such as permission to recite a mantra, visualize oneself as the deity, and understand the deity's wisdom and one's mind are the same. In general, the more strict schools like Sakya consider that properly speaking, one must have received an abhiṣeka before receiving an adhiṣṭhānas or an anujñāta
Then there is a final rite known as a "rig gtad", a kind of rite for entrusting someone with a vidyāmantra from Kriya tantra, i.e. it permits you to recite the mantra.

There is also a srog gtad, an entrustment rite for worldly protectors.

There is what is called a gtor dbang in Nyingma, where the torma is blessed as the basis of the empowerment, not a mandala.

Also in Dzogchen there is the so called "rig pa'i rtsal dbang", the empowerment of the power of the vidyā, more or less an expansion of the word empowerment. There are a number of other empowerments in Dzogchen as well such as the rgyal ba spyi blugs, and so on, more or less variations on the theme of the rig pa'u rtsal dbang.

There is finally, the empowerment of the descent of the wisdom vajra described in Indrabhuti's Jñānasiddhi, an influential text on Mahāmudra.

And that's about it, and in all of this there is no pre-recorded video abhiṣeka, etc., at least, not until this century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
Jikan said:
We thought it appropriate that Khenpo's email should basically have the last word.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case it was an evasion, and I can understand why, since the correct answer is actually no, one cannot receive an empowerment from a recording.

Privileging someone's answer because of their title, in absence of any clear scriptural precedent or reasoning is pretty lame.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
Adamantine said:
Well the idea was mainly that most of the conceivable opinions
about recorded wangs have been expressed in the prior thread,
and it gets repetitive and almost like proselytizing for the same
people to keep expressing the same opinions over and over. If we can try to avoid that here, it would be ideal. The topic is certainly not banned though. Thanks!

Malcolm wrote:
What we are discussing now is the fact that "answer" (which was a non answer) basically confirms our opinion that there is no validity to the idea that one can receive an empowerment from a recording (but we already knew that...).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 7th, 2014 at 12:22 AM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
So he said that no one can say for sure at anytime that another person has received the empowerment.
This amounts to a non-answer. This means that anyone, at any time can declare they have received x empowerment from x guru.

dzogchungpa said:
It might be a non-answer, but it seems to directly contradict what you said here:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=16286&p=230684#p230647
Malcolm wrote:
Were you awake during the activities of the disciple? Did you recite the prayers understanding what they meant and why? Did you try to follow the visualizations sincerely as best you could? If so, then you entered the mandala.
It does not. It is a kind of dissimulation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: A closer look into empowerments
Content:
Unknown said:
So he said that no one can say for sure at anytime that another person has received the empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
This amounts to a non-answer. This means that anyone, at any time can declare they have received x empowerment from x guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: Three Steps Insight Meditation
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
this way of meditating the view is actually derived from the section on the meditating the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, termed "the three points of practice", i.e. mind, illusion and insubstantiality.

Since the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana as well as the three points of practice should only be discussed with those who have received the Hevajra cause empowerment etc., and the instruction of the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, I will leave it here.

In other words, if you really want to understand this you should meditate it properly.

kunle said:
totally agree with your last statement - it is a practice instruction.

however, could you elaborate on your previous point?
since the entire nangsum is taught and supposedly practised before one receives Hevajra, i don t see why one has to rely on the explanation on the inseparability of samsara and nirvana. not that it would harm, i m just trying to understand why you mean one needs to understand this first. cheers.

Malcolm wrote:
The real meditation of these three points in 'khor 'das dbyer med is done on the basis of examples, whereas in snang gsum it is presented on the basis of intellectual analysis. But the format of mind, illusion and insubstantiality is ultimately derived from the Vajra Verses where it says "All phenomena are the appearance of mind itself" and so on.

snang gsum itself is presented on the basis of the outline written for the snang gsum and rgyud gsum which may be found in pod gser ma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Three Steps Insight Meditation
Content:


kunle said:
unfortunately there seems to be no extant Sakya commentary on this text. Rongton is said to have authored one, but it was lost.

apart from Dzongsar, no Sakya shedra teaches this text i believe, so i m not sure how standart sakya this really is.

Malcolm wrote:
@ Kunle: nevertheless, when the view presented in snang gsum and so on — it is clearly stated that first section of meditation on vipaśyāna is in accordance with how ultimate truth is meditated in Yogacara. It is only in the second and third sections on vipaśyāna in snang gsum and so on that freedom from extremes and inexpressibility is meditated.

@ Astus, this way of meditating the view is actually derived from the section on the meditating the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, termed "the three points of practice", i.e. mind, illusion and insubstantiality.

Since the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana as well as the three points of practice should only be discussed with those who have received the Hevajra cause empowerment etc., and the instruction of the view of the inseparability of samsara and nirvana, I will leave it here.

In other words, if you really want to understand this you should meditate it properly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Three Steps Insight Meditation
Content:
kirtu said:
Cittamatra is in fact taught as a prelude to Madhyamaka in Sakya.

Astus said:
Do you mean Cittamatra in its limited sense of "all phenomena are only mind"?

Malcolm wrote:
As in Shantaraskita's Yogacara Madhyamaka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 8:05 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The ability to give an empowerment is a technical skill more or less acquired in a decade. The ability to be a lineage head however requires a lifetime of training from a young age. It is important to keep this distinction in mind.

dzogchungpa said:
Is that just because a lineage head has to be able to give many different kinds of empowerments or is there something more to it?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they have many retreats to do, many mandalas and rites to learn and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 6:43 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
theanarchist said:
My guess is that in the Tibetan tradition the gap between the holy, venerated tulku teachers and the disciples is deliberately kept so big. It's kind of aristocracy by either recognition or family line.

Therefor i's implied that what they have archieved is pretty much unarchievable for any "ordinary folk" followers anyway. People are not exactly encouraged to aspire the same. (that one day you can teach vajrayana it not exactly something you should aspire like becoming a mechanic, but still it's to such an extent unthinkable that people psychologically limit themselves I think)


Malcolm wrote:
The ability to give an empowerment is a technical skill more or less acquired in a decade. The ability to be a lineage head however requires a lifetime of training from a young age. It is important to keep this distinction in mind.


It is very likely that within the next thirty years there will be a plethora of western teachers who can give a limited set of empowerments. It will be a hundred years before there is a genuine western lineage head.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 4:48 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche is in his early to mid 50's, I believe, as is Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche.  So....no offense, but these are the current generation.   HH Karmapa, Mingyur Rinpoche,  are a generation closer.....or younger, IMO.

dzogchungpa said:
Sure, but with respect to the people mentioned in the OP, DJKR and TWR are 1 or even 2 generations behind them. The point is they could easily be teaching for another 20 years.

Sherab Dorje said:
Or they could die tomorrow.


Malcolm wrote:
As could any of us...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
First, a nonreturner is not necessarily an arhat...

Malcolm wrote:
Is never an arhat...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: the so-called "open minds" of the young and old
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
That's interesting. Are you saying that for someone like you, Malcolm, who needs meat to be healthy, but is a non-Vajrayana Mahayana practitioner, it is impermissible?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, according to Mahāyāna vows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Indrajala said:
I used to have the same ideas as Malcolm in these respects, but I changed my mind when exposed to new models.

Malcolm wrote:
The luxury of youth is the ability to change your mind before anyone actually takes you seriously.

Indrajala said:
lol. You change your mind a lot. On E-sangha you defended meat eating, then one day said it was sinful to eat meat, then not so long ago started defending meat eating yet again.

Malcolm wrote:
I have always said exactly the same thing about meat eating:

From the point of view pratimokṣa vows it is permissible.
From the point of view of Mahāyāna vows it is not permissible.
From the point of view of Vajrayāna samaya, it is permissible.

When I was debating against the general consumption of meat, I was doing so out of personal conviction. Even then I clarified that I exempted the practice of consuming meat in the context of Vajrayāna samaya. I continue to maintain that industrially produced meat (and plantfood) is a bane for the environment to this day, and that it should be avoided. I still do not cook meat in my home.

If there are people who can be vegetarian and be healthy, I applaud them. I cannot. In general, I consume some meat because it is good for me to do so, physically. The two times in my life when I went for extended periods of time without eating meat, my health suffered a great deal, and not because I was not eating correctly. In general as a physician, I see a lot of people who really do need to eat meat and who feel better when they do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Indrajala said:
I used to have the same ideas as Malcolm in these respects, but I changed my mind when exposed to new models.

Malcolm wrote:
The luxury of youth is the ability to change your mind before anyone actually takes you seriously.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
For Bon, there is Tenzin Wangyal.

Malcolm wrote:
I meant when he is gone...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
kalzang said:
I sometimes wonder how Dharma in the West will be affected by the passing of today's famous/popular teachers. What will happen to (the perception of) certain sanghas when their iconic teachers pass away? How will popular support and (serious) attendance be affected? Imagine Plum Village without Thich Nhat Hanh, Sravasti Abbey without Thubten Chodron, Gampo Abbey without Pema Chodron, Rigpa/Lerab Ling without Sogyal Rinpoche etc. Where are the future iconic/charismatic Dharma teachers?

Any thoughts?


Malcolm wrote:
For Nyingma there is Dzongsar Khyentse; Zigar Kongtgrul, Khandro Rinpoche, Anam Thubten, etc. lots of people.

The Sakyapas never produce anyone charismatic...

There is the HH Karmapa, Migyur Rinpoche, etc.

I don't know the Gelug or Bon schools well enough to comment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 12:59 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I know a shitload more about everything than I did when I was 28, especially about myself.

Indrajala said:
I think you're a smart guy who has continually been in learning mode, but that's often exceptional in people. Not all people past fifty know so much or even tried to spend part of their lives studying and trying to figure themselves out.

Malcolm wrote:
It is a quality of my generation notably lacking in those younger than us, from the Reagan youth onward. There is a fifteen year slice from roughly of people born from 1950 to 1965 who were remarkably open-minded, introspective, culturally open, etc. People prior to that and subsequent to that tended to be either more conservative or more nihilistic...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 6th, 2014 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Indrajala said:
My generation is a lot more open minded.

Malcolm wrote:
Than who? People my age (51)? I don't think so. And you yourself are not a bastion of open-mindness, quite the opposite from my perspective.

dzogchungpa said:
Does being a "bastion of open-mindness" even make sense?
In all fairness to VIJ, it seems to me that he actually is quite open-minded, although perhaps not quite bastion material.

Malcolm wrote:
Have you examined his views on gay marriage lately? How about his view that "inferior" social classes requiring a firm controlling hand...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 5th, 2014 at 11:55 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Jeff wrote on his blog that accompanies this:
My generation is still too young to command much respect or authority.
I can remember bitching about this very fact when I was your age. My opinion was that the only difference between me and some 45 year old guy was that he was 45 and I was 28. Of course, in the intervening years I have come to realize that there is a lot of difference between being 28 and 51, and I am sure that when I am 75, if I make it that long, I will have an even longer lens to view things from. I know a shitload more about everything than I did when I was 28, especially about myself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 5th, 2014 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:


Indrajala said:
My generation is a lot more open minded.

Malcolm wrote:
Than who? People my age (51)? I don't think so. And you yourself are not a bastion of open-mindness, quite the opposite from my perspective.

Give yourself another 20 years and you will be laughing at your youthful opinions of today, especially when some 28 or 30 year old tells you that his or her generaition is more open-minded than yours.

I have live for five decades; what I have learned is that for every decade there are opinions about life that are shared among those people who live in that decade, and that people who have not reached a certain decade generally cannot imagine that the people who have reached that decade have anything worthwhile to say just based on lived experience. But the fact is that the older you get, the more things just stay the same, young people like yourself have been bitching about older people since the dawn of humanity and will continue to do so, and older people will continue to shake their heads in amusement as they watch the younger generations continue to make the same damn mistakes they did.

If you were really a Confucian, you should be seeking to follow the example of some sagacious mentor, you would be attending to your dear parents, and so on. But I see the usual business of young intellectuals like yourself, lots of sturm and drung, tons of opinions, but not much yet in the way of follow through...and how could there be? You have not been an adult for even a decade yet.

It does not mean that you are not bright, or your opinions are not worthwhile, but put them in context...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 5th, 2014 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Next generation of Dharma teachers in the West?
Content:
Indrajala said:
For example, some people condemn me as being delusional or having some cultural fetish for openly adopting certain East Asian cultural bits while mockingly saying they would never accept me as one of their own. This is a curious generation gap I've noticed. Previous generations disdain the idea of someone white adopting Asian ways, whereas in my generation, at least amongst people I know, it is acceptable..

Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, dude, you have been in an ex-pat bubble for so long, you have no idea how people in Canada will relate to you as a "monk". Further, you discount the fact that the West is becoming more xenophobic, not less so, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 5th, 2014 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Adamantine said:
But in this case --of a live video or recorded video-- there is a physical support, a support of visual and audible phenomenon. So it is different.

Malcolm wrote:
As I have explained, in the case of the former, the mandala is active, the guru is present, the disciples are present. In the case of the latter, the mandala has been dissolved and the rite is already finished, the guru is not present. Case closed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 5th, 2014 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Source? getting on the horse just to fall off the other
Content:
mañjughoṣamaṇi said:
Hello,

Throughout the years, in reference to Madhyamika and eternalism/nihilism, I've seen variants of phrase that goes something like the following:

"getting on the horse just to fall off the other side"

indicating one's attempts to avoid either of the extremes has left one squarely in the opposite extreme.  Does anyone know if there is a canonical source for this expression?

Thanks.


Malcolm wrote:
I think it begins with Gorampa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 5th, 2014 at 3:31 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Jigme Lingpa is hardly an ordinary shmoe, a beginner, trying to gain a proper introduction to Vajrayāna. He was a highly experienced practitioner who had been in retreat for years. He also had a real guru, a human being.

Adamantine said:
I pointed out he was of the highest capacity-- I understand his background, however it is still an example of receiving transmission outside of a concrete physical presence.

Malcolm wrote:
That was an example of a siddha receiving transmission from a Sambhogakāya manifestation. Even the Buddha cannot manifest his sambhogakāya to any ordinary sentient being to give them a single word of teaching, much less an empowerment. In order to even see a Sambhogakāya one must be an eighth stage bodhisattva.

Adamantine said:
I don't think it is irresponsible to give the benefit of the doubt to Garchen Rinpoche-- that this was his intent and what he communicated, and that he may indeed have the capacity to benefit beings in this way.

Malcolm wrote:
Not even Buddha Vajradhara can benefit beings in that way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 5th, 2014 at 2:54 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Adamantine said:
Speaking of highest capacity though, of course we know that Jigme Lingpa received the body speech and mind blessings of Longchenpa in visionary form. So this may be an example of a yogi truly with the highest capacity. He came to see Longchenpa as his true root Guru, even though he never met him in the flesh.

Malcolm wrote:
Jigme Lingpa is hardly an ordinary shmoe, a beginner, trying to gain a proper introduction to Vajrayāna. He was a highly experienced practitioner who had been in retreat for years. He also had a real guru, a human being.

It is really irresponsible to encourage people to think it is a even a remote possibility that one could receive an qualified empowerment from a recording.

Of course, in matters of religion people are free to believe whatever fantasies they want...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 4th, 2014 at 11:01 PM
Title: Re: Alan Wallace on Dzogchen
Content:
smcj said:
Half an hour into it he mentions that Dudjom Lingpa never had a human teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
This is of course completely false.

Just look on TBRC, you can see that Dudjom Lingpa was a disciple of a very prominent 19th century Gelugpa master , 'jam dbyangs thub bstan nyi ma. http://www.tbrc.org/#!rid=P382 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 4th, 2014 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Tröma Nagmo in Sanskrit?
Content:
plwk said:
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/490.html
No, it is Khrodhakāli, a form of Vajrayogini originally revealed by the Mahāsiddha Virupa and brought to Tibet by Padampa Sangye.
Thanks Malcolm but what you metioned is also mentioned in the link I gave. So Himalayan Art got the Krishna Krodhini part wrong huh?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I have never seen that equivalent anywhere. There are a lot of mistakes on Himalayan Art actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 4th, 2014 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: Tröma Nagmo in Sanskrit?
Content:
yegyal said:
Wouldn't it be Khrodhikali, as both parts of the name are feminized?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 4th, 2014 at 8:19 PM
Title: Re: Tröma Nagmo in Sanskrit?
Content:
plwk said:
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/490.html

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is Khrodhakāli, a form of Vajrayogini originally revealed by the Mahāsiddha Virupa and brought to Tibet by Padampa Sangye.

zenman said:
Is Krodhakali a direct translation?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, May 4th, 2014 at 8:04 PM
Title: Re: Tröma Nagmo in Sanskrit?
Content:
plwk said:
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/490.html

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is Khrodhakāli, a form of Vajrayogini originally revealed by the Mahāsiddha Virupa and brought to Tibet by Padampa Sangye.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Receiving Empowerment: Crash Course
Content:
Motova said:
Thanks for the help everyone. So I guess I don't have to memorize this book yet, but I'll still read it and get a good grasp of it. I really prefer it as opposed to the Lam Rim or Words of My Perfect Teacher...

Thanks for the book recommendation Malcolm, I'll definitely order it!

Will this Green Tara initiation allow me to practice the 21 Praises to Tara?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, absolutely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: What practices can you do publicly?
Content:
Sherlock said:
Sometimes on a nice day, I like to go to a park and sit down and do some practice that doesn't involve much chanting. Is this alright?

What about chod?


Malcolm wrote:
Doing an outer chod is a little strange. But you can of course do chod in a very simple way. However, if you are chanting strange things in a loud voice, even SOV, this is not a good thing as you know.

But going to do semzins like white a and so on, no problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 8:42 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Alfredo said:
Must the tantras be accepted as literally true, in order for tantric Buddhism to make sense?

Malcolm wrote:
In order for the practice presented in Buddhist tantras to make sense, you must accept that one can achieve the result they promise by following the methods they prescribe. If you accept that, then in order to achieve those results, you must follow the methods they prescribe with faith in those methods.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Alfredo said:
Are there no legitimate disagreements, either among the various tantras, or in the case of the same tantra, from one commentary to another?

Malcolm wrote:
Since the procedures for empowerment into HYT mandalas actually depend on yoga tantras such as the Sarvatathāgatatattvasamgraha, there is an unusual degree of conformity in methodology amongst the HYT tantras for how to give an empowerment into an HYT mandala.

We find very little controversy over the procedure for granting empowerments within the Indian texts themselves. Naturally, different empowerments all have their special features, but in general they all follow a fairly standard model.

There is a fair amount of controversy among Tibetans over what constituted a proper maturational rite; the Nyingmapas and Kagyus being on the loose side of things, the Sakyapas being on the strict side of things, Gelugpas somewhere in the middle. If you are interested in these debates, then you need to read Sapan's Clear Differentiation of the Three Codes and the responses to it by various Kagyu and Nyingma authors. You can also read Tsele Natshog Rangdrol book on empowerments, as well as what Kongtrul has to say on the subject.

But even where there is some debate amongst Tibetans over whether "blessings" (sbyin rlabs) as opposed to full empowerements (dbang skur) have the necessary features to properly introduce one into Vajrayāna, there was never any debate at all that one must properly receive some kind of empowerment in person from the guru in order to be considered someone who has received samaya.

And as you know, this would clearly exclude recorded empowerments from consideration.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 7:17 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Alfredo said:
And in those tantras, does the relevant Buddha or tutelary deity typically REVEAL rules which already exist, inherent in the structure of the universe, or ESTABLISH rules according to what would work best for sentient beings, or TRANSMIT rules which he/she received from some other source?

Malcolm wrote:
The source of empowerments are the Buddha Vajradhara's wisdom, set down in words in the tantras. If someone is a person who has faith in Vajrayāna, it is hard to maintain that one has faith in Vajrayāna and yet disbelieves the verity of the basic texts of Vajrayānā.

For example, the Kalacakra tantra contains a chapter which explains empowerments in great detail.

Empowerments themselves are a method, working with causes and results, bases of purification, purifiers and results of purification which are taught in the tantras. Empowerment is a method, and it has certain procedures to ensure it is successful.

Secondly, there are the instructions of Mahāsiddhas like Naropa who have realized the result of the path, and who have written commentaries on empowerments, such as the Sekkhodesha, etc.

Then there are of course commentaries written by learned scholars on these things who nevertheless may not have realization and so on.

At base, the fundamental principle of an empowerment is to reverse samsaric dependent origination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 7:09 PM
Title: Re: Receiving Empowerment: Crash Course
Content:
Motova said:
So I just finished school a week ago and started full time landscaping for this summer. So I haven't had much time to prepare for: http://www.sakyatoronto.com/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hopefully the tickets aren't sold out when I go to buy them this weekend...

I haven't taken refuge yet, though I am going to try and do it myself before I go. And I emailed the rep for the event, and they said refuge isn't necessary, also someone mentioned something along the same lines on a thread here.

Basically, I have two weeks to prepare myself so I can receive proper empowerment and/or not get kicked out.

I have Three Visions - Fundamental Teachings of the Sakya Lineage of Tibetan Buddhism by Ngorchen Konchog Lhundrug with a Foreword by H.H. Sakya Trizin... My plan is to memorize the outline on page 221 for those who have it and try to read the book twice, as well as become familiar with H.H. Sakya Trizin's biography.

Please post anything that you think might help me with my goal. I'm specifically looking for some resources on how to receive empowerment's properly, as well as any stories about Sakya Trizin that might inspire faith in him and/or the Sakya Lineage. Also, if you have any criticism go crazy. Finally, does anyone know the specific sadhana's  H.H. Sakya Trizin will be giving transmission for and if they will be handed out or sold on site?

Malcolm wrote:
The Green Tara practice is quite common. But if you cannot find it there let me know after you have received the initiation. My translation is the one used in the Sakya centers under Lama Migmar.

You should consider purchasing Treasures of the Sakya Lineage, available from Shambhala. My trainings is primarily in Sakya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 7:06 PM
Title: Re: Receiving Empowerment: Crash Course
Content:
Motova said:
I haven't taken refuge yet, though I am going to try and do it myself before I go. And I emailed the rep for the event, and they said refuge isn't necessary, also someone mentioned something along the same lines on a thread here.

Karma Jinpa said:
I've never heard of being able to take an empowerment without having first gone for refuge.

Malcolm wrote:
Refuge is given at the beginning of every empowerment, so there is no reason to attend a refuge ceremony as a preliminary. Bodhicitta vows are given in every empowerment, so there is no reasons to attend a bodhicitta vow ceremony separately.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 7:03 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
heart said:
So, in my opinion I don't think anyone that posted in this thread mean disrespect or insult to Garchen Rinpoche.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 6:53 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:


Alfredo said:
If there are rules governing the validity of Buddhist empowerments, from where do these rules arise?

Malcolm wrote:
The tantras, of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 6:47 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
My answer was clarifying that ChNN said he could not confer a full empowerment through the net and why he felt this was so.

JohnJ said:
I apologize for any redundant questions, and questions that are off topic from this thread, but since the teachings of ChNN were brought up again I'd like to make sure my understanding is clear.

By full empowerment, am I correct in understanding that you mean one that includes all 4 empowerments and has the necessary physical supports?     Your answer earlier seemed to indicate that for students of the right capacity, direct introduction could suffice for their ripening, and so a full empowerment would not be necessary, while for students of lesser capacity a full empowerment is definitely necessary.  Have I understood this correctly, according to the Dzogchen perspective and teachings of ChNN?

Is the central difference between a meaning empowerment and a full physical empowerment, according to ChNN, found in whether or not there are physical supports?   If there is greater underlying difference, could you say a few words as to what that difference is?   For instance, sometimes ChNN states that for many people a meaning empowerment can be much more important than a traditional empowerment, does this also have to do with one's capacity?

My questions centrally revolve around the meaning of the word 'full' in this explanation of empowerment, since I have never thought the teachings and path presented by ChNN was lacking, or "not full".

Thank you in advance for helping to clarify any misunderstandings that I might have on this issue.

Malcolm wrote:
A full empowerment generally takes two days (though it can all be done in one) and has an elaborate version of the vase empowerment, etc. Empowerments that do not have that are called "blessings" according to the new tantras and "meaning empowerments" according to the system of anuyoga because they do not have the preparation phase and the four empowerments are given symbolically.

The Garland of Pearls Tantra, one of the 17 Dzogchen tantras, maintains that for students of lesser capacity all four empowerments are necessary, while students of higher capacity or experience may require only direct introduction. The sgra thal gyur definitely states that empowerments are a necessary requirement and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 5:59 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are no siddhis without empowerment, 
just as there is no oil even if sand is pressed. 
Whoever proudly explains the tantras and citations
to those without empowerment,
both master and disciple go to hell
as soon as they die even if there are siddhis.
-- Mahāmudratilaka-tantra

Virgo said:
Very scary.

Kevin

Lhasa said:
Yup, and the Catholic church used to teach that if you swallowed your toothpaste on purpose during the three hour fast before receiving communion, and died on the way home, you went straight to hell.

Malcolm wrote:
The point, of course, is that one should not expect to have any positive results from the practice of Vajrayāna if one does not enter Vajrayāna in a proper way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
face palm buddha 2.jpg

Malcolm wrote:
classic


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 3:19 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
T. Chokyi said:
I can't imagine that you don't see this as an opportunity to learn something.i

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot receive an empowerment from a recording of an empowerment. It simply isn't possible. Such a thing resembles the son of a barren women. You can talk about such a boy all you want, you can describe his hair, his abilities, his intelligence, his wit, grace and charm — but in the end, you have to admit you are talking about a fantasy.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Dalai Lama on the other hand, opined that people watching Kalacakra and participating actively via a webcast could receive the empowerment in that way. But here, this is all taking place within the context of an active mandala.

Karma Jinpa said:
This is interesting to hear.  Did His Holiness say this at the most recent Kalachakra in D.C. a few years ago, or was it at some other place/time?

The reason I ask is because I attended a Guhyasamaja wang he gave back in 2010 or 2011 via webcast and he specifically said that those viewing it online had not received the empowerment.  Don't remember if his reasoning was the lack of contact with the substances/supports or not, or if he even gave one.  Sounds like either the Dalai Lama is changing his mind on webcast wangs, or that Kalachakra is a special case/exception to the rule.

Also worth noting that His Holiness has said on numerous occasions that he gives the Kalachakra empowerment as skillful means to give introductory and fundamental teachings since tons of people will come from far and wide for such a high empowerment but the vast majority of them won't receive it in actuality.

Malcolm wrote:
It might be the number if people attending but I don't know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Mistranslating Gampopa?
Content:
Karma Jinpa said:
Thank you to everyone who's provided alternate translations!  These have really helped dispel my confusion on the matter.

Malcolm wrote:
It literally ought to be:

Grant blessings [that] Dharma moves to the path;

Karma Jinpa said:
Malcolm, can you kindly give your gloss/understanding of what "Dharma moves to the path" would mean?  Thanks.

This is one of the many reasons why I'm so overjoyed to learn the language:  one day I'll be able to read the texts directly and even compare my own understanding to the translations of others.

Malcolm wrote:
One is requesting that the Dharma one has learned becomes a path. Then you are asking for the path to destroy delusion, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 2:14 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The issue is not whether someone can receive an empowerment through the internet.

Sherab Dorje said:
Actually, this was raised as an issue too.  And your answer was basically that people cannot receive full empowerment via the internet, neither through live broadcast nor through a recording.

Malcolm wrote:
My answer was clarifying that ChNN said he could not confer a full empowerment through the net and why he felt this was so. The Dalai Lama on the other hand, opined that people watching Kalacakra and participating actively via a webcast could receive the empowerment in that way. But here, this is all taking place within the context of an active mandala.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
So how can one verify if the siddhi that arose, even in the case of a proper empowerment, are not just based on the exhaustion of merit?

Malcolm wrote:
One can infer on the basis of the kindess of the person whether they are a bodhisattva. Otherwise there is no way you or I can tell.


Sherab Dorje said:
There are Siddhas in non-Buddhist tantric traditions too, do they receive correct empowerment or are their siddhi based exclusively on the exhaustion of merit?

Malcolm wrote:
The latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are no siddhis without empowerment, 
just as there is no oil even if sand is pressed. 
Whoever proudly explains the tantras and citations
to those without empowerment,
both master and disciple go to hell
as soon as they die even if there are siddhis.
-- Mahāmudratilaka-tantra

Sherab Dorje said:
I'm not denying the validity of this statement, but if siddhis arose then it would verify the validity of the empowerment, right?  Or maybe not?  Can empowerments theoretically ripen over lifetimes?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, it is mentioned that even if one shows signs of accomplishment, one is merely exhausting one's merit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 3rd, 2014 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Imagine someone claiming they have attained siddhi from only attending a recorded empowerment and doing the retreat, and then seeking to initiate students into that said empowerment.

Sherab Dorje said:
And if the siddhi were verified?

Malcolm wrote:
There are no siddhis without empowerment, 
just as there is no oil even if sand is pressed. 
Whoever proudly explains the tantras and citations
to those without empowerment,
both master and disciple go to hell
as soon as they die even if there are siddhis.
-- Mahāmudratilaka-tantra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 11:59 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
untxi said:
I find this whole thread a little disturbing.

There are many very highly qualified masters, with genuine realization, who offer a variety of teachings across a wide range of topics (lam rim, dialectics, empowerments, tantric grounds & paths, kyerim and dzogrim instructions, pointing-out and pith instructions) in a wide range of contexts (one-one, informally through skillful means, in groups, in teaching retreats, in practice retreats)-- which happen to include modern technologies such as recording and webcasts.

Malcolm wrote:
You are overshooting the mark here with your objections.

The only thing I question, and quite rightly so as far as I am concerned, is the practice of some students encouraging other students to believe that watching a video of an empowerment constitutes receiving that empowerment. I have never once called into question the practice of attending live webcasts, following a course through the mail, and so on.

My concern is quite real, since I think that this belief that one can receive an empowerment or even the transmission of a mantra from a recording will do serious damage to Vajrayāna teachings.

Imagine someone claiming they have attained siddhi from only attending a recorded empowerment and doing the retreat, and then seeking to initiate students into that said empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Dharma Quotes Thread
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
སེམས་ལས་གཞན་མེད་པར་ནི་བློས་རིག་ནས།
དེ་ནས་སེམས་ཀྱང་མེད་པ་ཉིད་དུ་རྟོགས།
བློ་དང་ལྡན་པས་གཉིས་པོ་མེད་རིག་ནས།
དེ་མི་ལྡན་པའི་ཆོས་ཀྱི་དབྱིངས་ལ་གནས།
- Mahayansutralamkara


Malcolm wrote:
Having come know that nothing exists apart from the mind, 
then understanding the mind too does not exist, 
the intelligent, knowing both do not exist,
dwell in the dharmadhātu that is without them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Lhasa said:
Thank you!

T. Chokyi said:
You're welcome Lhasa, I've been in empowerments with you by Garchen Rinpoche over the internet I do believe, I think I've seen you in the live chat Rinpoche allows at those empowerments, where we can request substances from Rinpoche, and also the deity images, sadhana, and mantras...I believe I've "seen" you there. Tashi Deleg to you!

Malcolm wrote:
This was never an issue. The issue is not whether someone can receive an empowerment through the internet.

The issue is whether one can receive an empowerment from watching a video of an empowerment that took place at an earlier time. This is impossible and I have given many reasons for why this is impossible.

I think many people are largely ignorant of what an empowerment actually is, and so believe all kinds of strange things are possible when in fact they are not. Such thinking truly involves abandoning the Buddha's teaching "where this exists, that exists, where this does not exist, that does not exist." Believing that one can receive an empowerment from watching a video is similar to believing that one can be sustained by looking at a picture of a fine meal. In reality, one will only be fed by sitting down at a real table and eating a real meal.

The point is not to deprive people of an avenue for making a Dharma connection. The point is to make sure that people actually make a Dharma connection.

The person who takes secret mantra on his own
is like a child who swallows burning iron.
— Ārya-vajrakrodharājakalpa-laghutantra-nāma


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 8:58 PM
Title: Re: Mistranslating Gampopa?
Content:
Karma Jinpa said:
So I always see this translation of the Four Dharmas of Gampopa:

༈ བློ་ཆོས་སུ་འགྲོ་བར་བྱིན་གྱིས་རློབས། །
ཆོས་ལམ་དུ་འགྲོ་བར་བྱིན་གྱིས་རློབས། །
ལམ་འཁྲུལ་བ་ཞིག་པར་བྱིན་གྱིས་རློབས། །
འཁྲུལ་པ་ཡེ་ཤེས་སུ་འཆར་བར་བྱིན་གྱིས་རློབས། །
Grant your blessing so that my mind may turn towards the Dharma.
Grant your blessing so that Dharma may progress along the path.
Grant your blessing so that the path may clarify confusion.
Grant your blessing so that confusion may dawn as wisdom.
I've bolded and italicized the part that's always confused me, or struct me as clunky.  Is the grammar for the Tibetan such that this is the only way to read it?  If that's not the case, I would think that "Grant your blessing so that I may progress along the path of Dharma" would be a much more sensible translation.

Can anyone with more Tibetan skills weigh in on this?

Malcolm wrote:
It literally ought to be:

Grant blessings [that] mind moves to the Dharma;
Grant blessings [that] Dharma moves to the path;
Grant blessings [that] the path destroys delusion;
Grant blessings [that] delusion rises as wisdom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
Doesn't motivation/intention play a role in dependent origination?

Malcolm wrote:
If you take as a master someone who only intends to make money off of empowerment rites, as long as they are done correctly, you still are taking samaya with that person and so on, as well as agreeing to the commitments of Vajrayāna in general. Of course, if you find out later that person is merely a carpetbagger, a Dharma salesman, well, you can leave that guru's company, but you can't look back and say "oh, those empowerments I took were not valid".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 6:53 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course, as long as they have done the retreats, and so on.

This is why it is critical to examine the qualities of the guru.

If you take someone as a guru, and request empowerment and so on from them, then you have a connection with that person even if their motivation is wrong. Why? Because you made the connection; you requested empowerment, and so on. From that point on you are supposed to view them as being an actual Buddha. You are the one who, at the beginning of the empowerment, are saying "Guru, please heed me; accept me as your disciple".

Sherab Dorje said:
So an empowerment executed "correctly" with the "wrong" motivation has the desired result, whereas an empowerment done "incorrectly" but with the "right" motivation does not have the desired result.  So can you please explain to me how this contradicts my opinion about the preeminence of ritual?

Malcolm wrote:
It is similar with an ordination of a monk. If the rite is not properly executed, the ordination does not happen. Someone can intend to be a monk with all the right motivation in the world; but if they do not receive the ordination from a properly constituted quorum, they cannot be considered a bhikṣu. On the other hand, someone who wishes to become a monk for power and fame becomes a monk if they ordain in front of a properly constituted quorum.

As for an empowerment, it is the case that an unawakened person can bestow an empowerment which produces the cause and condition for another to achieve awakening in this very life, for example, in the case of Kotalipa who achieved the state of mahāmudra, and whose own guru begged him to become a disciple. Why? Because the rites of maturation during an empowerment are effective. They work because of dependent origination.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 6:40 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:


dakini_boi said:
Well, my understanding is that the orthodox response would be yes (according to scriptural sources which I am unable to cite, but I'm sure you could).

Malcolm wrote:
The answer in fact is no, according to scriptural sources. When the guru asks you to do something that violates Buddhist principles, you are to explain to him that you cannot do that.



dakini_boi said:
I have learned a lot from this topic, particularly your posts about empowerment, Malcolm.

Malcolm wrote:
My sole intention is edify, so I am glad.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Thus far, no one has been able to offer any sort of reasonable response to my objections about this.

dakini_boi said:
Vajrayana is based on the instructions of an authentic Guru first and foremost, before any scriptural source...

Malcolm wrote:
I am sorry, but this is just a pathway to delusion. By this reasoning, if the Guru tells you to rape and murder people, you should follow this teaching though it totally violates every Buddhist principle!?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
While I can understand and sympathise with what you are saying here, it seems to me that we are falling into a trap.  The trap here is that of the preeminence of ritual.

Malcolm wrote:
You are mistaken. If people think that properly upholding methods taught by the Buddha fall under the heading of adherence to rites and rules, then the Dharma is already hopelessly corrupt and there is no point in my discussing this further. There is no point in even criticizing those who give empowerments without having received them and so on.

M

Sherab Dorje said:
No, because most of those giving empowerments without having received them (and some of those giving them, after having received them) are doing so with wrong/unwholesome motivation.

What do you think:  if the vajra master does not have the right motivation, even if the ritual is carried out according to the book, using all the correct physical/material  supports etc..., will/can it be successful based only on the adherence to prescribed outer forms?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course, as long as they have done the retreats, and so on.

This is why it is critical to examine the qualities of the guru.

If you take someone as a guru, and request empowerment and so on from them, then you have a connection with that person even if their motivation is wrong. Why? Because you made the connection; you requested empowerment, and so on. From that point on you are supposed to view them as being an actual Buddha. You are the one who, at the beginning of the empowerment, are saying "Guru, please heed me; accept me as your disciple".

And if they have not done themselves received empowerment they are granting, then both that guru and you will go to lower realms. All this is clearly stated tantras such as the Mahāmudratilaka and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Malcolm, you have given a good description of what is supposed to be going on in the guru's mind during an empowerment. What is less clear is what effect this is supposed to have on the students. Perhaps this is the point that needs to be clarified. For example you said: "the master summons the jñānasattva, the wisdom being, into each disciple who is present" but what does that mean exactly?

Malcolm wrote:
It means that through the proper causes and conditions the student is prepared to receive the main part of the empowerment. If the student is free of obstacles, they may experience certain signs that I will not discuss.

There are any number of very good books on the subject of empowerments and what happens during them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
michaelb said:
Do Gelugpas take this true existence as something separate from an object? I know they say it doesn't exist,  but is it something separate from the object that they are negating, so "pot is not empty of pot but empty of inherent existence? "  would they take a statement that the pot is empty of pot to be nihilism?
Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they regard statements like "The pot is empty of the pot" to be an over-negation. They only accept "the pot is emptiness of potness".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
While I can understand and sympathise with what you are saying here, it seems to me that we are falling into a trap.  The trap here is that of the preeminence of ritual.

Malcolm wrote:
You are mistaken. If people think that properly upholding methods taught by the Buddha fall under the heading of adherence to rites and rules, then the Dharma is already hopelessly corrupt and there is no point in my discussing this further. There is no point in even criticizing those who give empowerments without having received them and so on.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 2nd, 2014 at 1:28 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
haha said:
Dog's tooth can do the Buddha's work. Why the rinpoche's empowerment video cannot do that??? How many people are going to watch that? and then how many people do get benefit from it? However, those ppl whoever want to connect with him definitely get benefit from it if the rinpoche said so.

Malcolm wrote:
No. Faith in the Buddha qualities what caused the results produced in this story. The women did not have faith in a dog's tooth, she had faith in the Buddha's qualities. The women may have been mistaken about the tooth, but she was not mistaken about the Buddha.

But we are not talking about the veneration of relics. No one is history has ever suggested that one can receive, for example, a Vajrakilaya empowerment from even a valid, authentic relic of the Buddha.

We are discussing whether someone who watches recording of an empowerment actually receives it. Thus far, no one has been able to offer any sort of reasonable response to my objections about this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Alfredo said:
An analogy might be with a wedding ceremony.

Malcolm wrote:
It was just pointed out to me that the analogy might be apt if one could be married by watching a recording of someone's else's wedding.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Alfredo said:
An analogy might be with a wedding ceremony. What counts as a valid ceremony? Can it be performed by proxy (i.e., with a third person standing in for one of the couple)? Some religions, notably Catholicism, conceive of marriage (or technically, sacramental marriage--the following would not apply to natural marriage) as indeed involving some kind of spiritual bond, which comes into existence only under certain precise conditions. Others, notably Buddhism, defer to whatever standards each society may have.

Malcolm wrote:
The analogy is not apt. We are not comparing what an empowerment is in Buddhism and Catholicism.

Further, the definitions and procedures of empowerments (a practice unique in Vajrayāna Buddhism with unique requirements) are defined in the basic literature of the Vajrayāna (the tantras); unlike marriage ceremonies which are extra-canonical rites; despite the fact that there are considered one of the seven sacraments of the church.

There are hundreds of texts written by Indian masters on the subject of empowerments, how to conduct them, for all four classes of tantras.

There have been some disagreements among Tibetans in the past as to what constitutes a proper "maturational empowerment" -- those interested can read Sakya Pandita's Clear Differentiation of the Three Vows and the various responses to it by Kagyu masters such as Pawo Tsuglag Trengwa and so on (Here the issue is whether a sbyin rlabs can be considered to "mature" or "ripen" a student).

Nevertheless, everyone agrees that without an empowerment one is not matured as a student of Vajrayāna. The question here is whether one can be ripened by or receive an empowerment from an inanimate object such as a "blessed" picture, book or a movie. The answer is, "Of course not."

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 8:03 PM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
conebeckham said:
Ironically, by inserting the qualifier "inherent" critics say he leaves a subtle sort of "existence" as regards conventional truth.  His supporters say those who completely negate existence stray into nihilism.

michaelb said:
Are the 'freedom from extremes' types negating existence, though?  Not existent, not nonexistent,  etc. But are they just really saying not existent and the other three are added just to copy a traditional Indian pattern?

I'm still a little stuck on the inherent existence thing. Translations I've read from Nagarjuna to Mipham also talk about the absence of this being what emptiness means.

Malcolm wrote:
All four extremes represent positions found in Indian philosophy; for example, the Jain position of indeterminacy is really just the position that something can exist and not exist at the same time.

So yes, all four extremes must be negated, both relatively and ultimately, and that, and that alone is the middle way.

Tsongkhapa is faulted for a lot of things in his Madhyamaka writings which really have very little to do with Madhyamaka per se. Of course, what many people do not understand is that often Gorampa;s polemics are not so much aimed at Tsongkhapa as they are Khedrupje.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 7:31 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Alfredo said:
Transmissions are not magic spells--

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, and imagining that digital files can be "blessed" to grant empowerments is precisely the kind of thinking that informs "magical spells".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 7:28 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
JohnJ said:
but merely speculating based on instructions I have received.

Malcolm wrote:
That's a bad idea.

JohnJ said:
I am very grateful for your clarification, however, as it has helped me understand the quote by Garchen Rinpoche that I referenced above.   I think, in this case, that you are saying the same thing he has said but in much greater detail.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't have any idea what Garchen has said, I merely note that a lot of people are claiming Garchen Rinpoche's endorsement for their own concepts. I have yet to see any formal written statement about this matter from him. For example, you can bet that were ChNN to do something as controversial he would publish a formal written statement and explain his reasons why he was doing this or that very precisely.

JohnJ said:
...to abandon this kind of divisive thinking...

Malcolm wrote:
The divisive thinking here that is being promulgated is being promulgated by those who claim against all reason and common sense that digital files can be "blessed" to  "grant" empowerments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 4:45 AM
Title: Re: Simhamukha and Guru Dragpur
Content:
Reibeam said:
does the lung for the medium Tun give enough authorization to practice Simhamukha and Guru Dragpo separately from the Tun?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Dharma Quotes Thread
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Samādhirāja Sūtra states:

Though I have taught the very excellent dharma, 
if you do not correctly practice after hearing it, 
it is like a patient holding a bag of medicine, 
it will not cure one’s illness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 1:55 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
OK thanks, but I was also wondering if there are supposed to be "signs" indicating that you have really "received the empowerment"?

Malcolm wrote:
You mean like stigmata?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 12:27 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
During an empowerment, there are two sections...
...
As you can now understand, in order to be a Vajramaster one must have extraordinary powers of samadhi.

dzogchungpa said:
OK, thanks. If that is (part of) what is necessary to enter a HYT mandala correctly, I kind of wonder how often that happens.
Is there any way to "verify" that one has indeed done so?

Malcolm wrote:
Were you awake during the activities of the disciple? Did you recite the prayers understanding what they meant and why? Did you try to follow the visualizations  sincerely as best you could? If so, then you entered the mandala.

Even though your master is not the most realized person, as long as he satisfied his responsibilities in doing the basic approach retreats and fire offerings, etc., and performed the empowerment rites correctly, still you took the pledges of samaya, still you received the empowerment. Still you need to regard that person as a real Buddha. If you do so, then you will achieve buddhahood. Even if the Buddha were to give you an empowerment, if you think he is an ordinary shmoe, then like Sunakṣatra, you might be swallowed up by the ground before you even die.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Again, this is the fault of the master. There are two things that must happen; the master must examine the student, the student must examine the master. If the master does not examine the student and the student walks away thinking the Vajrayāna is bullshit, whose fault could it possibly be other than the master's for not checking the student?

Sherab Dorje said:
Seriously now:  when was the last time you ever heard of this happening, either in the "East" or the "West"?


Malcolm wrote:
I know of quite a bit of difficulty encountered by both masters and students because this does not happen. Masters driven by blind kindness or even by selfishness (to gather large retinues to pay for things "for the dharma") and students driven by greed and egotism because they are going to "become buddhas" etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 1st, 2014 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
qwerty13 said:
Do mean by "unsuitable" a person who has no faith in Vajrayana, or even disrespects it?

Malcolm wrote:
As for two, yes.

Sherab Dorje said:
I don't really see how physical presence is any guarantee of this though, I've been to empowerments where many present did not know what they were getting themselves involved in and left with a negative attitude regarding the Vajrayana methods.

Malcolm wrote:
Again, this is the fault of the master. There are two things that must happen; the master must examine the student, the student must examine the master. If the master does not examine the student and the student walks away thinking the Vajrayāna is bullshit, whose fault could it possibly be other than the master's for not checking the student?

Unfortunately in this day and age we have a "try it before you buy it" culture. This really does not work well in a Vajrayāna context, since it ruins both masters and students.

This is why ChNN repeatedly says there is no such thing as taking an empowerment as a blessing, and forgoing the commitments. It is actually impossible, and when you are told "You can take this as a blessing", and you think this means you do not have samaya, or a vajra relationship with that teacher, or the practice and so on, you don't understand anything. If you are not serious about a practice or a teacher, then it is better you don't go.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Further, there is the very real likelyhood that unsuitable people will choose to watch such performances on places like youtube resulting in many samaya problems.

qwerty13 said:
Are you now strictly talking about empowerments in to highest yoga tantra ( like Vajrayogini, Yamantaka, guhyasamaja etc. etc)?
Are these samaya problems (coming from watching recored empowerment) present only in the case of Highest yoga tantra initiation?

Malcolm wrote:
Further, there is the very real likelyhood that unsuitable people will choose to watch such performances on places like youtube resulting in many samaya problems.

qwerty13 said:
Do mean by "unsuitable" a person who has no faith in Vajrayana, or even disrespects it?

Malcolm wrote:
As for question one; in general, yes. However, even among kriya yoga deities, those of the Vajra family have samayas to observe which involve secrecy and so on.

As for two, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One: in any empowerment, there are three mandalas: the front created mandala, the vase mandala and the mandala of the teacher. The teacher arranges the descent of the wisdom being from the front created mandala onto the disciple after he creates each disciple as the form of the deity to be given.

dzogchungpa said:
OK, this is interesting. Is there anything that can be said about how the teacher arranges the descent of the wisdom being from the front created mandala onto the disciple, and what it means to create each disciple as the form of the deity to be given?

Malcolm wrote:
During an empowerment, there are two sections: the self-empowerment conducted by a qualified master which includes such things as preparing the the space, and so on, which culminates in the master conferring the empowerment upon himself into the mandala and the creation of the front mandala as well as the vase mandala.

Second, when all this is done, then the master again repeats the sadhana, creating each disciple as the mandala they into which they are to be initiated: this stage is called creating the samayasattva, the commitment being. Then, when this has been done, the master summons the jñānasattva, the wisdom being, into each disciple who is present. In a very serious empowerment this is done one by one, i.e. the master visualizes each disciple separately as the deity, and is the reason why the most serious and proper way to give empowerments is to give them to one, three, seven or no more than twenty-five disciples at a time. In other words, if he or she is giving the initiation to 3 people, he or she must visualize three separate mandalas. If he or she is giving the empowerment to twenty five people, they must visualize 25 separate and complete mandalas. For example, the Kalacakra Mandala in the full form has 648 deities, if I recall correctly. Each deity must be separately visualized for each person during that empowerment.

Even in a Jenang, where there is only a body, speech and mind "blessing" (i.e. the form of the deity, the mantra and introduction to the deity's wisdom continuum) the master must visualize everyone present as the form of the deity individually.

As you can now understand, in order to be a Vajramaster one must have extraordinary powers of samadhi.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 6:55 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:


JohnJ said:
It might be good to mention that in my personal encounters with Garchen Rinpoche and the lamas that teach through his Institute, empowerment is understood as something that is rarely actually recieved.  In other words, the belief seems to be that empowerment only occurs when one has understood the nature of their mind through that empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
This represents a misunderstanding of the nature of empowerments on your part.

An empowerment is something that arranges a profound dependent origination between someone's body, speech and mind and the three kāyas of the result. Therefore, it is not so that one does not receive the empowerment if one does not realize the nature of the mind.

An empowerment is first of all a method for inducing realization, for example, when Indrabhuti I attained Buddhahood by receiving the Guhyasamaja empowerment. Failing that, we have sadhanas, which is the method connected to the empowerment to produce realization. When we receive an empowerment, we agree to follow various samayas until we attain buddhahood. People who do not receive empowerments do not have those samayas.

JohnJ said:
The real empowerment is much more than a permission to practice various Sadhanas, it is an introduction to the natural state, and only if you do not understand that and remain in confusion should you seek out various Sadhana and yoga practices.

Malcolm wrote:
If you did not truly receive an empowerment because you failed to realize nature of your mind, you could not realize the three kāyas through the practice of sadhanas. Therefore, this idea is really not very correct at all.

JohnJ said:
In that way, most everyone who receives the empowerment is only receiving blessings, not the actual empowerment.

Malcolm wrote:
Nonsense. This represents a total misunderstanding of what an empowerment actually is.

JohnJ said:
My own understanding is that the recorded empowerments are a permission to practice and a receiving of some lineage blessings, since the vast majority who come or stay at home won't receive the empowerment in the way that Garchen Rinpoche (and many others) understand it.

Malcolm wrote:
There are a number of problems with this:

One: in any empowerment, there are three mandalas: the front created mandala, the vase mandala and the mandala of the teacher. The teacher arranges the descent of the wisdom being from the front created mandala onto the disciple after he creates each disciple as the form of the deity to be given. If you are not at the empowerment in some fashion during the time it is being given, there is no descent of the wisdom being.

Two: at the end of any empowerment, byin rlabs, or rje gnang there is the dissolution of the mandalas, i.e., the front created mandala, the vase mandala and the mandala of the teacher. One cannot receive initiation into a mandala that has been dissolved by the master. Once the vajramaster has concluded his or her activities, the empowerment is over.

Therefore, watching an empowerment later on is like watching a performance on PBS. It may be interesting, fascinating, and so on. But it is not live, you are not there, you are not participating, you are watching a show. You may be edified, but there is no stream of blessing because the mandala has already been switched off, as it were.

Further, there is the very real likelyhood that unsuitable people will choose to watch such performances on places like youtube resulting in many samaya problems.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 5:56 PM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Take the empowerment yourself (or a similar one, for example, the Shi khro nges don snying po ). Then you will see.

ratna said:
Do other Shitros also confer these vows? Isn't Namchö Shitro also Anuyoga? Does this mean we're all bhikṣus in the DC and just don't know it?

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 9:26 AM
Title: Re: Indian roots of tibetan buddhism
Content:
Zhen Li said:
Not every great Buddhist tradition is Indian in origin.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "tradition" and "origin".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 9:07 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
untxi said:
a webcast
-U

Malcolm wrote:
No one has rejected attending a live webcast...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 9:06 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:


JohnJ said:
Furthermore, regarding a "secret mantra guru", the Dzogchen Community has many secondary practices, mantras, protectors, etc.   Does this mean that the Direct Introduction, though it has no physical supports, constitutes the entirety of a "proper" empowerment for those who receive it, since there are many practices in the DC that are of the Vajrayana vehicle?

Malcolm wrote:
In the system of Dzogchen, the rig pa'i rtsal dbang aka direct introduction is considered to be the source of all empowerments. Therefore, from the perspective of the Dzogchen teachings, a direct introduction by a _qualified_ master alone is sufficient to ripen one as a student of Mantrayāna since the minds of all wisdom deities are the same; differing only in terms of mantra and appearances (for which thge khrid lung is then required).

On the other hand, it is not likely that many Sakyapa or Gelugpa lamas agree with this approach. Nevertheless, the system of Dzogchgen, following its own tantras, can support this approach with citations as well as reasonings.

Further, the system of Dzogchen considers the direct introduction to be an expanded, more experiential form of the fourth empowerment.

This however does not mean that other empowerments are not necessary. The Mutig Phrengwa tantra states that those with understanding require only introduction; the rest should receive the four empowerments in order. So it really depends on the capacity of the student.


JohnJ said:
In other words, ChNN rarely seems to give full Vajrayana empowerments, so would it still be correct to say that his teachings contain the essence of the 4 empowerments given in traditional HYT and that the many students and members of DC who follow his teachings have received Samaya, are expected to keep it perfectly, and have entered the Vajrayana?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, from the perspective of Dzogchen teachings, this is correct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 1:52 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Sherab Dorje said:
So how does this all square with the fact that your teacher ChNN gives empowerments over the internet where students will not have access to the sacred substances and material supports of the empowerments (ie not in a proper way ) regardless of the fact that it is "live"?

Malcolm wrote:
Greg,

I just clarified that ChNN does not do this, read more carefully.

CHNN explicitly has stated that he cannot grant full fledged empowerments over the internet at all because there is no way to introduce the student into the mandala directly and so on. However he does give so called "meaning" empowerments and direct introductions because they require no physical supports.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 1:51 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:


qwerty13 said:
I dont know anymore how to believe.

Malcolm wrote:
Shakyamuni's mantras is also from sutra (The Ārya-svalpākṣara-prajñāpāramitā-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra to be exact), and kriya tantra, and so it too does not require any sort of empowerment at all to recite.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
smcj said:
The proof will be in the taste of pudding, as they say. If someone can take an empowerment via whatever means, do a retreat, and gain realization, then the empowerment is valid. Until such time as that experiment has been done we must rely on expert opinions.

I for one, however, am not willing to invest that much time and effort on such an experiment.

Pero said:
But, if you're not going to do it yourself you're just going to take someone elses word for it?

Johnny Dangerous said:
I think i've read a book (chime in if anyone remembers this) by (I think) Karma Chagme where he says something along the lines of "I hereby declare that reading of these words constitutes permissions to practice Avalokitsehvara". I'm sure it was worded differently, but the gist seemed to me that he was giving permission to practice a deity via text, and that reading it was enough. I don't remember the other qualifiers involved though. There certainly seems to be a precedent for reading of texts (for example) being transmission of something in Buddhism here and there.

I wanna say the book was A Spacious Path To Freedom..but i'm not positive.

Pero said:
Now that you say that I think Malcolm in some discussion long ago mentioned that somewhere Jigme Lingpa says that whoever is reading his text (I don't remember which one, too far back) has the lung for it. But since it was so long ago, it could've been whoever "understands" his text... Any memory of what I'm talking about, Malcolm?

Malcolm wrote:
There is a Dzogchen tantra which states "It is not necessary to hear it, obtaining the text is enough."

But this presumes that one has already been ripened by the four empowerments:

If this king of intimate instructions is given to improper recipients, both will be burned. 
May it be acquired buy those trained suitable recipients with good karma!
Through that may secret mantra remain for a long while!
May the darkness of the ignorance of migrating beings be dispelled!

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
If someone could explain what it means to be "ripened" in this context we might be able to have a more constructive discussion.

Malcolm wrote:
"Ripened" means someone has entered a HYT mandala correctly, possesses all the samayas, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 1:40 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
I think i've read a book (chime in if anyone remembers this) by (I think) Karma Chagme where he says something along the lines of "I hereby declare that reading of these words constitutes permissions to practice Avalokitsehvara". I'm sure it was worded differently, but the gist seemed to me that he was giving permission to practice a deity via text, and that reading it was enough. I don't remember the other qualifiers involved though. There certainly seems to be a precedent for reading of texts (for example) being transmission of something in Buddhism here and there.

I wanna say the book was A Spacious Path To Freedom..but i'm not positive.

Malcolm wrote:
Om mani padme hum is a sūtra mantra. Anyone can practice it without transmission anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
smcj said:
The authority is the tantras, not the opinions of experts.
And where in the tantras does it say that live webcasts are valid?

Malcolm wrote:
They don't mention the issue at all.

smcj said:
How is it that the digital reproduction then is more valid than at a later date? Here at Dharma Wheel the validity is accepted because ChNN and Garchen R. say so.

Malcolm wrote:
CHNN explicitly has stated that he cannot grant full fledged empowerments over the internet at all because there is no way to introduce the student into the mandala directly and so on. However he does give so called "meaning" empowerments and direct introductions because they require no physical supports.

smcj said:
The rationale is based on the non-locality of the guru's blessing, on ChNN and G.R.'s expert opinion that such is the active operating principal in a live webcast.

Malcolm wrote:
See above, that is not ChNN's rational. ChNN's rational is that the student and the master are collaborating at the same time, therefore, distance is not an issue but time is.

smcj said:
There are teachings to that effect, that the guru-yoga

Malcolm wrote:
In order to have a secret mantra guru one must have received empowerment in a proper way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
smcj said:
But in any case it still belongs on the editorial page, at least until such time as a consensus is formed one way or the other among the other experts.


Malcolm wrote:
It is not really an issue that can be resolved by consensus.

The authority is the tantras, not the opinions of experts.

We may debate about these things, but we must do so based on proper citations reinforced by logical reasoning. It is not sufficient to say "This is my guru's blessing, so therefore it is valid because I have faith in him or her."

Anyway, I have had my say.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 30th, 2014 at 12:03 AM
Title: Re: When are you considered a 'Buddhist'?
Content:
Pringle said:
When would a person be classed as a 'Buddhist' rather than someone who follows buddhist teachings (if there even is a difference)


Malcolm wrote:
When you sincerely go for refuge to the Three Jewels.

Pringle said:
How would one sincerly go for refuge? Do you mean if one sincerly practices in accordance with the the path with body, speach and mind, or do you mean sincerely go to refuge by taking a formal declartion in the presence of a sangha?

Malcolm wrote:
Or simply by going for refuge in the Three Jewels in your heart.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
smcj said:
However you have a habit of stating your opinions with the same voice of authority that you give your expertise.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not an opinion.

There is no teaching of the Buddha in any authentic Buddhist tantra anywhere that someone who wishes to be ripened to practice Vajrayāna can be ripened merely by interacting with an inanimate object, which is what a recording or a book is in fact.

If someone wants a blessing, they should go visit a lama and get a pat on the head and a cord. If someone wishes to practice Vajrayāna, they should make the effort and sacrifice to go to where a teacher is present, receive an empowerment in a proper way, and if they cannot manage that much, then they should participate in a live online transmission of some kind.

It is not sufficient to watch some video of an empowerment and say " I will do this now and later get the real empowerment" and so on. This kind of thinking also has many faults mentioned in the tantras. We are after all discussing Vajrayāna, right?

Complaining it is impossible to travel, or that there are no teachers where one lives is the worst sort of lameass excuse one can give considering the enormous troubles the ancient Tibetans went through to bring the teachings to Tibet from India.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 11:15 PM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
jiashengrox said:
Ok thank you! Just to check this is the terma by Rigdzin Jatson Nyingpo, and is different from our usual Karling Shitro?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, Shi khro nges don snying po is a full anuyoga system empowerment in brief form.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Anders said:
Cool dharma stuff can happen in the saha world too, much as we like to think that's reserved for holy people and holy worlds, etc. Imo, that's why the sutras tell us about these things. To open our minds to the possibilities of transmitting the dharma we can be exposed to.

Malcolm wrote:
This is to miss the point completely.

These kinds of teachings must be in accordance with the capacity of the recipient. Ordinary beings do not smell the sound of Dharma floating out of septic tanks. They smell rotten shit.

I am very sorry that I have to say this, but I have a responsibility to the Dharma. If people feel I am being critical of this or that teacher, that is not my intent.

Empowerments are not mystical transmissions, they are a very specific method with a precise dependent origination that requires the guru and the disciples' active, simultaneous, cooperative participation. The Buddha has no more power to bless a digital file with the potency to confer an empowerment (dbang skur), a blessing (sbyin rlabs), a permission (rjes gnang), a reading transmission or an ordination than the power to bless a book for the same purpose, so what need to mention any teacher living today? To believe otherwise to to fall under the influence of total proliferation.

Therefore, if someone asks me, I will always honestly tell them that it is impossible to receive any kind of Vajrayāna transmission from a recording of a prior event. People are of course free to disagree and that is between them and lower realms.

There are no siddhis without empowerment, 
just as there is no oil even if sand is pressed. 
Whoever proudly explains the tantras and citations
to those without empowerment,
both master and disciple go to hell
as soon as they die even if there are siddhis.
-- Mahāmudratilaka-tantra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The intention here comes from symbolic initiation into bhikṣu pratimokṣa in the Anuyoga grand empowerment.

jiashengrox said:
Would it be possible to support this with evidence? Somehow or another i couldn't find the reason in the same text.


Malcolm wrote:
The reason is not explicitly given.

Take the empowerment yourself (or a similar one, for example, the Shi khro nges don snying po ). Then you will see.

No such empowerment exists in the new tantras, and therefore, Sapan does not accept this perspective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 10:38 PM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
jiashengrox said:
I could quote from Ngari Panchen's Ascertaining the Three Vows on this issue:

"An upholder of lay ordination who is also a pure-awareness holder must,except for signs and rituals of complete ordination, practice all that remains"  (page 26)

It summarises the need for us to adhere to fundamental pratimoksha precepts (in fact in a stricter sense, coz in that context, he mentioned the need to follow the bhikkhu's conduct, with exception of ceremonies performed by bhikkhus or ordained ones, the "outer signs of ordination", as commented on by Dudjom Rinpoche).

Malcolm wrote:
RIght, that I disagree with completely -- this was already rejected by Sakya Pandita in sdom gsum. One only needs to follow the vows which one receives in a given rite.

The intention here comes from symbolic initiation into bhikṣu pratimokṣa in the Anuyoga grand empowerment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: When are you considered a 'Buddhist'?
Content:
Pringle said:
When would a person be classed as a 'Buddhist' rather than someone who follows buddhist teachings (if there even is a difference)


Malcolm wrote:
When you sincerely go for refuge to the Three Jewels.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 9:07 PM
Title: Re: Too much Vajrayogini?
Content:
JKhedrup said:
In Sakya the Hevajra cycle would be most important for understanding their take on tantra, I am guessing?

Is this point about the mandala the reason it is said VY herself bestows portions of the initiation, whereas for other systems this is not the case?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, Lamdre in general, as well as rgyud sde spyi rnams, rin po che ljong shing, etc.

As for the second point -- this is about how Yogini is the essence of the mandala, but it is not exactly like that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 8:59 PM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And that is not Rongzom's POV at all.

ConradTree said:
Well he clearly holds tantra as more definitive than sutra.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but that does not mean we throw out the five lay vows because they are predicated on a dualistic view, for example, or toss out samaya for the same reason.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 8:14 AM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
ConradTree said:
The moral of all of this is to throw out sutra entirely, and stick to tantra like Rongzom says.

https://www.amazon.com/Establishing-Appearances-Divine-Reasoning-Madhyamaka/dp/1559392886 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
Don't be ridiculous. And that is not Rongzom's POV at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 8:13 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
anjali said:
There came a time when the Buddha's teachings had to be written down.

pueraeternus said:
That would be passe. In the future, tertons would hide termas in the World of Warcraft, or maybe some obscure corner of Ultima Online.


Malcolm wrote:
dude, Halo...come on...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:


jiashengrox said:
Anyways, i think in Mipham's book, it was said that Sera Jetsunpa (Jetsun Chokyi Gyaltsen), Jamyang Shepa, jamyang Gawai Lodroe and Panchen Delek Nyima did reply to Gorampa with regards to his criticism. I am not sure if that is right (refer to page 246, note 79).

Malcolm wrote:
I don't believe that these replies are considered by Sakyapas to address any of Gorampa's observations in any substantial way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 2:55 AM
Title: Re: Gorampa, Rendawa, and Rongton
Content:
jiashengrox said:
This discussion i hope to have actually stems from the following thread:

http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16306&p=230132#p230132 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First of all, I would like to ask if any scholar around could give a precise differentiation on Gorampa and Rendawa's views on Madhyamika? As i do know that Gorampa's text is pretty much the standardised texts used in the seminaries, it would be good to actually have some basic information for everyone here before anyone else might make a decision to delve into Gorampa's text on Madhyamika.

Also, as I am currently reading Rongton's Commentary on Mulamadhyamikakarika (translated by Khenpo Ngawang Jorden, if i m not wrong), i would also appreciate if anyone could give an idea of how their differences in view are like? It's just for preliminary understanding.

Finally, if it is possible, would anyone be able to give a heuristic view of the Sakya's approach towards Maitreya's treatises (such as say, Uttaratantra)?  It would be good to hear a different pov from the gelug, kagyu and nyingma traditions, since there are many translations that have been published.

Thanks a lot!

Malcolm wrote:
IN general, Gorampa and Rongton more or less have the same view. Many of Gorampa's refutations were penned defenses of Rongton against Khedrup.

Gorampa found Rendawa a bit extreme in terms of Rendawa's polemics againt Jonang, but again, there is no real difference view.

As for Maitreya treatises Gorampa considers Abhisamayalamkara and Uttaratantra definitive, depending oninterpretation, and the other three provisional.

Gorampa's works are considered the gold standard for view in Sakya, apart from the five founders.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 12:26 AM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
plwk said:
Thanks Malcolm & jiashengrox. It's rather baffling (to me at least) that the Gelugpas, being known for being a scholastic tradition, would not have produce any commentarial or treatise to compare / contrast / refute Gorampa directly but resort to what is seemingly political moves as a 'valid' response instead? Hmmm...


Malcolm wrote:
Well the founder of Sera did pen one reply, but it more or less amounts to a tome of sputtering indignation, "How dare you, you #%$@$*&^...."

I think the Gelugpas in general would prefer to imagine that Gorampa was just a bad dream someone had. Pabhongkha was pretty indignant that Gorampa's collected works were collected and revived in Eastern Tibet and it seems to be one of his motives for encouraging sectarianism there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 29th, 2014 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
All these questions arise due to our failure to recognize the nature and function of the videokaya.



Malcolm wrote:
More importantly, they arise due to our failure to understand the essence of the interdhātu.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 9:25 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchenpa's nose
Content:
thigle said:
Continuation from https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=16295%22

Simon E. said:
The point Malcolm is making thigle, is that 'lobster' has declared himself to be an arhat.

thigle said:
But another much more important point is Simon, that some people declared himself to realised an authentic introduction.

Malcolm wrote:
Ummmm, no.

Someone merely declared that they understood something.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 8:45 PM
Title: Re: Now I "get it"
Content:


thigle said:
Stop to project selfish reasons. The delusion is obvious.

Malcolm wrote:
You make a lot of pronouncements so it seems like you consider yourself very expert in the teachings. As to whether some people here are working with various levels of understanding, that of course is true. But unless you are a realized person, it is a little strange to be castigating other people for being deluded when oneself has not even gouged out a small portion of one own delusion. On the other hand, if someone makes a statement that is clearly a factual error and is in contradiction with the teachings, then of course one is helping them by setting them straight, even if they find it painful.

thigle said:
Just as I said before, stop to project selfish reasons. The delusion is obvious. Consequence: It's better to close this subforum. Make your circle secret. So no one can be harmed anymore. User unity was just a mirror.

Malcolm wrote:
You know, it is generally better to wear shoes than to cover the world with shoe leather. My advice to you is to stop participating in on-line forums such as this one if you disapprove so strongly. They are not going to shut this forum just because you recommend it.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 8:33 PM
Title: Re: How to make voice last longer?
Content:
Belincia said:
My throat begins to hurt when I try to do a lot of mantras, so like during retreats I'm unable to do them as much as I'd like to. I do drink water a lot while doing it, because that helps somewhat. No matter if I do them loudly/queitly, I still can't keep going as long as I'd like to. I always do them with my normal pitch, which should be the healthiest way.

Are you aware of effective ways to train the voice to last longer?

I am a young person, and I don't have any tendency for illnesses on my "speaking organs". I very rarely get this pain from just talking. I think doing mantras is a bit more intense, as it is continuous.

Thanks in advance.

Malcolm wrote:
Mantras should normally be done quietly, quiet enough so a little guy on your shoulder cannot hear them. It is called "secret mantra" for a reason. Bellowing mantras like Vajrakilaya and so on causes obstacles.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: Now I "get it"
Content:
thigle said:
So, it's better to close this public forum or this self-destructive obligation of secrecy falls, which has much worse effects for the teachings, than doing the teachings publicly.

Sherab Dorje said:
I disagree.  I actually believe that it is very important that this sub-forum exists so that people with wrong views can have them corrected by people with some serious knowledge/experience in Dzogchen.  Imagine if they just got their info from various suspect online sources.  It is also valuable as it can give people with a serious interest in Dzogchen the opportunity to know what should and should not be discussed.  Of course the adage:  "Go ask your teacher" can be applied to 90% of the questions asked here, you must take into account that not everybody has a teacher that they can regularly and personally access, so...

Welcome to Kali Yuga "thigle", we can't pretend sh*t is not out there (anymore), because it is, and we have to deal with it.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, at least the OP knows better than sharing anything here anymore...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Now I "get it"
Content:


thigle said:
Stop to project selfish reasons. The delusion is obvious.

Malcolm wrote:
You make a lot of pronouncements so it seems like you consider yourself very expert in the teachings. As to whether some people here are working with various levels of understanding, that of course is true. But unless you are a realized person, it is a little strange to be castigating other people for being deluded when oneself has not even gouged out a small portion of one own delusion. On the other hand, if someone makes a statement that is clearly a factual error and is in contradiction with the teachings, then of course one is helping them by setting them straight, even if they find it painful.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 7:29 PM
Title: Re: Now I "get it"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You realize you are talking to an "arhat", right?

thigle said:
I'm talking about Dzogchen in an deluded Dzogchen 'like forum, because nobody talks about Dzogchen...

Malcolm wrote:
I see, so you really know Dzogchen much better than anyone else here, is that what you think?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 6:36 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
anjali said:
When Rinpoche is no longer in the body, will future generations of practitioners also be able to receive empowerments from the authorized recordings?

Malcolm wrote:
It would certainly be cheaper than having to train living teachers...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 6:31 PM
Title: Re: Now I "get it"
Content:
thigle said:
Because primordial natural losseness is completely unfabricated. So stability can't be practiced. Therefore one have to make a strong decision and the fruit is relative stability. This can take years and decades. If knowledge is relative stable, potentiality begins to unfold.

lobster said:
Quite right, it is the conditions for stability that one must enable.

thigle said:
So, if one can't understand the necessity of decisions instead of practicing stability, one never has realized immediate knowledge before. This step isn't a personal fabrication, it is just the consequence what follows after temporary recognicing immediate knowledge. This decision is absolutely consistent with the ZZNG-tantras I know.

Malcolm wrote:
You realize you are talking to an "arhat", right?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 6:02 PM
Title: Re: Too much Vajrayogini?
Content:
JKhedrup said:
However, in terms of the study of tantra, VY is not really enough to understand Lama Tzongkhapa's teachings on the subject.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not sufficient for understanding the Sakyapa take on Vajrayāna either.


JKhedrup said:
As for Tsem Tulku's statement about the supremacy  of VY, thus has to be taken with a grain of salt.

At every empowerment you attend the lama says why that particular deity is special.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but the reason given for Cakrasamvara and Yogini being especially relevant these days is that the mandala of Cakrasamvara is still extant, open. It was also by far the most popular cycle in India, I suspect, because it had such a compelling narrative based on this idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Unity's theory on the nature of mind
Content:
Unity said:
There's no more that I can say about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 1:30 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
Mazard seems to think that ancient Buddhists would have taken such passages literally, but is that clear?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, of course. Just read the Yoga Sutras, full of very similar phenomena.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
jiashengrox said:
Are there like differences between their (Rongton and Gorampa) views on madhyamika?

Malcolm wrote:
Not much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 28th, 2014 at 12:09 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:



theanarchist said:
I see. That makes sense. Thanks for the clarifcation.

Malcolm wrote:
In those days (late 11th, early 12th), in general, the new instructions that were pouring into Tibet were regarded as being more potent, while the Nyingma teachings in general were regarded as having been somewhat corrupted, with very diminished blessings.


theanarchist said:
Was there some actual truth behind this assumption or were the lineages that were freshly imported just more fashionable because they were new and came more freshly from the land of the Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
For example, the founder of Sakya, Khon Konchog Gyalpo was advised by his older brother to stop practicing Nyingma practices and focus in the new tantras because they saw secret dances being performed at a harvest festival in the market.

theanarchist said:
Is it correct to assume that Padmasambhava had forseen this and therefor hid the treasures to revive the tradition in later centuries?

Malcolm wrote:
The story goes.


theanarchist said:
I have never heard of what went on in in the earlier centuries of Tibetan buddhism after Padmasambhava beyond the stories of Milarepa and later Je Dzongkhapa. Are there documents from that time or is it pretty much mythological?

Malcolm wrote:
You should read the Blue Annals. Tsongkhapa is very late, i.e. 14th/15th century.

We have a very good knowledge of Tibetan History beginning about 970. The period between 840 and 970 is a little hazy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
jiashengrox said:
would Rongton's interpretation of madhyamika be considered as mainstream? Are there like differences between their (Rongton and Gorampa) views on madhyamika?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, as well as Rendawa, and Tsongkhapa in his early commentary on the perfection of wisdom, now largely neglected in Gelug.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
jiashengrox said:
Hmmm.

Malcolm-la, not sure if this is correct, but could you refer to this article:

http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/ret/pdf/ret_22_05.pdf

Page 11, under footnotes 31. I was wondering if you (or anyone else who knows tibetan language) would have read about khedrup's reply to gorampa, and if so, what are his replies?

I (my personal opinion!) don't think that the gelug scholars would leave such criticisms unanswered for centuries, especially pertaining to issues on madhyamika. But tt is my opinion only though, might not be right!

Malcolm wrote:
The article contains an anachronism. Khedrub never replied to Goramapa, or if he did, it was from the grave.

Gorampa lived from 1429 to 1489. Khedrup from 1385 to 1438.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:


mañjughoṣamaṇi said:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  What do you currently think about the proposal that Milarepa's iconic hand-to-ear pose represents klong sde practice?

Malcolm wrote:
It's possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The kind of Dzogchen teaching available to Milarepa would likely have only been so called "sems sde". This being the case, he probably would not have regarded it as being any more special or profound than the Mahāmudra teachings he received from Marpa.

mañjughoṣamaṇi said:
Are you putting the scare quotes around sems sde because it had not yet been classified as such during Milarepa's lifetime?  Given your recent studies where do you see the teachings eventually classified as klong sde appearing on the scene?

Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, it had not been classified as such during that time. Dzeng Dharmabodhi associated with a lot of first generation Kagyus in the Lhodrag region, but I see no reason to think that Vajra Bridge instruction does not go right back to Vairocana. Prior to the revelation of the Vima Nyinthig, Dzogchen was basically just Dzogchen, without the super elaborate schemes we observe today which are all post 1115.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:



theanarchist said:
I see. That makes sense. Thanks for the clarifcation.

Malcolm wrote:
In those days (late 11th, early 12th), in general, the new instructions that were pouring into Tibet were regarded as being more potent, while the Nyingma teachings in general were regarded as having been somewhat corrupted, with very diminished blessings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa
Content:
plwk said:
http://vajrasana.org/jeff01.htm
Now to the matter of Gorampa. To this day, the refutations against Tsongkhapa's Madhyamika view by Gorampa Sonam Senge have not even been replied to by the great Gelugpa scholars of the past few hundred years. Instead, the defenders of Tsongkhapa have attacked the intellectual juniors of Gorampa such as Taktsang Lotsawa, Shakya Chogden and others (see Jeffrey Hopkins, Meditation on Emptiness). Also, Ngorchen Kunga Zangpo (the founder of Ngor), a contemporary, criticized Tsongkhapa's understanding of Tantra.

Please understand that these are not ramblings or sectarian expletives but are commonly known to all who have studied Madhyamika within the greater family of the Tibetan Buddhist Tradition. For the Sakya School Sakya Pandita is the definitive scholar and teacher. Gorampa Sonam Senge is the definitive scholar in explaining the difficult meanings of Sakya Pandita's works.

Many Gelugpa monasteries banned outright Gorampa's works from entering their premises. The works of some other Sakya lamas which criticized Tsongkhapa or seemed at odds with those views were banned from publication entirely within Tibet and were only preserved secretly and re-published openly from Bhutan after 1959.
Can anyone elaborate on whether the above are true/factual?

Malcolm wrote:
While I certainly would not refer to Taktsang or Shakya Chogden as Gorampa's "juniors", the above is all true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 8:49 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Well, not so fast Kimosabe, Mila famously sang "Stabbed through in heart by Mahāmudra, stabbed in the back by Dzogchen..." and so on.


theanarchist said:
But apparently he did not pass a dzogchen lineage to his disciples, did he? (at least I have never heard of a dzogchen lineage that has Milarepa as one of the lineage gurus)
If he held a dzogchen lineage, why didn't he?

Malcolm wrote:
The kind of Dzogchen teaching available to Milarepa would likely have only been so called "sems sde". This being the case, he probably would not have regarded it as being any more special or profound than the Mahāmudra teachings he received from Marpa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Unity said:
Rigpa is...

Malcolm wrote:
not the universal mind which contains everything...

There is no such thing in Dzogchen. Really. You have deeply confused Dzogchen teaching with Advaita.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 7:04 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
ConradTree said:
Marpa got lineage transmissions from other siddhas in India.  Not Naropa though.

Sherab Dorje said:
Source?

Malcolm wrote:
It is a contention found in the collected works of the Sakya master, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen. There he states that according to his own Kagyu teacher, Milarepa never mentioned that Marpa directly encountered Naropa.

This is further confirmed by the fact that when Marpa met Atisha, Atisha informed Marpa that Naropa had already passed.

If Marpa did meet Naropa, it is likely he did so in a visionary encounter, similar to the encounter of Sachen Kunga Nyingpo with the Mahāsiddha Virupa in Tibet.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
smcj said:
There was an interesting line from the link posted just above:
Also, maybe not many of you here knows this - Malcolm (Loppon Namdrol) was asked to teach Dzogchen by KDL but he refused.
Uh, Malcolm, is that true?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes. I don't have any realization to speak of and there are many great masters still alive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 7:42 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
theanarchist said:
But according to you Milarepa must have been a complete spiritual noob, because, you know, he can't have attained liberation, because he didn't practice dzogchen and was inferior to, say, guys like Longchenpa, because of this.

ConradTree said:
Milarepa did practice Dzogchen.  He had like 10 gurus before Marpa.  That must blow your mind.


theanarchist said:
Nope, young, repentent Mila went to see a dzogchen master, the master gave him instructions, Mila totally got them wrong so the dzogchen master told him to go find Marpa, he isn'table to help him.

So Milarepa did obviously not practice dzogchen but the teachings Marpa the translator got in India from Naropa to attain liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, not so fast Kimosabe, Mila famously sang "Stabbed through in heart by Mahāmudra, stabbed in the back by Dzogchen..." and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 5:49 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't think you can make this case at all. If what you say is true, then someone like Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, who by the account of Kongtrul, achieved the 13th bhumi, could not have had such realization since JKW's realization came from Lamdre.

ConradTree said:
But both of those guys clearly held Dzogchen as the highest teaching, did they not?

Malcolm wrote:
The highest teaching is the one through which one attains complete Buddhahood. How can there be a teaching higher than that?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If later Nyingma authors refer to the so called anuttarayoga tantras translated in the gsar ma period as being equivalent with the so called "Mahāyoga" presented in the nine yāna scheme, they are being extremely anachronistic.


ConradTree said:
The point is that they evaluated HYT using their reasoning, and found it lacking.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I don't think you can make this case at all. If what you say is true, then someone like Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, who by the account of Kongtrul, achieved the 13th bhumi, could not have had such realization since JKW's realization came from Lamdre.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 5:31 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:


ConradTree said:
There is a thing called the 9 Nyingma yanas for example.

Malcolm wrote:
Which clearly developed in Tibet during the later ninth and early tenth century and is irrelevant to any Vajrayāna developments in India. Even the term "rainbow body" does not make a clear appearance in any Tibetan literature that can be dated prior the 11th century.

It is a grievous error to assume that by "Mahāyoga", any of the tantras which were unknown to Tibetans prior to the 11th century are being referred to.

If later Nyingma authors refer to the so called anuttarayoga tantras translated in the gsar ma period as being equivalent with the so called "Mahāyoga" presented in the nine yāna scheme, they are being extremely anachronistic.



M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: Kalachakra practice in Sakya
Content:
pueraeternus said:
Recently I attended HHST's Kalachakra empowerment in NYC. I would like to further my study and practice, but could not find any books on Kalachakra specific to the lineage transmitted by HHST (majority are on the Gelugpa transmissions). Is there any book anyone familiar with the tradition can recommend? Or there is no great differences between the various Kalachakra lineages and I can just refer to any available in the market?

Punya said:
My Sakya teacher is about to start teaching from this book: The Ornament of Stainless Light. An Exposition of the Kalachakra Tantra, Khedrup Norsang Gyatso, The Library of Tibetan Classics. He received the transmissions for Kalachakra from HE Chogye Trichen Rinpoche and HHST.

Malcolm wrote:
Where are you located?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
asunthatneversets said:
Andrew is discussing his materialist objective condition theory, not anything which resembles the gzhan stong view.

Andrew108 said:
Well that's a mouthful. And not really my position at all. For example I still hold to dependent origination.

The Dalai Lama says: "Philosophically, and for that matter conceptually, it seems more coherent to maintain a position that accepts the reality not only of the subjective world of the mind, but also of the external objects of the physical world."

Malcolm wrote:
But of course there are no appearances that exist apart from mind...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
ConradTree said:
We all know he was a sakya like dilgo khyentse.

but he and his partner jagmon kongtrul still ranked dzogchen higher.

They basically agreed with the nyingma yanas system.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, the nine yāna system ranking is irrelevant to HYT. Both systems lead to rainbow body. But not when we endlessly gossip about these things online.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 27th, 2014 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
achieved his own realization through the practice of Lamdre, according to himself.

mañjughoṣamaṇi said:
Does his mention which yidam he practiced in the context of the Lamdre teachings?  I'm curious since you've mentioned many times that Sakyapas tend to consider that he achieved Buddhahood via Yoginī.  Does he give specifics in that regard?

Malcolm wrote:
Hevajra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
theanarchist said:
Plus, where do the sarma vajrayana transmissions fit in there? Have you forgotten them? And do you consider them inferior to the terma lineages?

ConradTree said:
In general Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo...

Malcolm wrote:
achieved his own realization through the practice of Lamdre, according to himself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Unity said:
This great pure mind which pervades everything was called Parabrahman, Rigpa, God, Allah, and many other things.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not exist in Dzogchen teachings and is explicitly rejected in all Buddhist schools, including Dzogchen.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 10:29 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:


theanarchist said:
Talk, about general technicialities of empowerments with other practitioners doesn't break any samayas.

Malcolm wrote:
Discussing these things on a public forum which anyone can read, in a place where many people have no faith in Vajrayāna whatsoever (or worse, think it is bullshit) is a problem.

We do so, in general, because we feel that we have a license to do so because of the abundance of books on the subject of Vajrayāna which exist. However, in reality, it is a mistaken practice to discuss much about Vajrayāna in public forums such as this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Unity said:
Hm, I understood "rigpa" to mean the "nature of mind".
If you are correct in the way how you define it, then I must apologize for my misuse of the word.

Malcolm wrote:
Vidyā (rig pa) is the opposite of avidyā (ma rig pa). In a Dzogchen context, it means knowledge of your real state which is the nature of the mind. If you do not have this knowledge, you cannot say you possess "rig pa".

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
JohnJ said:
Why express an opinion that is in direct contradiction to the words of an established, well respected and loved teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
It is pointless to reply.

JohnJ said:
But not pointless enough to refrain from being condescending.   I am human being on the other end of this computer.   What if we were face to face and I sincerely asked you why you held the opinion you stated, would you just look at me and say, "It's pointless"?    If so, than I would say that one should work on their manners before focusing on Samaya.

Malcolm wrote:
First, this discussion was created by Greg, and not me. I was replying to question about Dharmapālas, and tangentially added my opinion about recorded empowerments, because of course, to practice Dharmapālas one must be someone who possesses samaya and that only comes from a properly granted empowerment.

I am sorry you felt I was being condescending, but I can assure that I was not.I was being factual.

Replying is pointless because:

1. It is not my job to condition you or your beliefs, despite the fact that I have every right to express my opinion.

2. This is not the correct venue to discuss the details of empowerments, how they work and why transmission through a recorded medium is invalid because it involves the discussion of many details of empowerments, how samaya vows are imparted and received, etc., which are not suitable for discussion in a public forum.

3. In the end, you will not accept whatever citations and reasonings I produce to demonstrate that such a system is poorly conceived because you have already declared it is valid.

Therefore, apart from expressing my reservations about the matter I have really nothing further to say on the subject.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 9:01 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
JohnJ said:
Why express an opinion that is in direct contradiction to the words of an established, well respected and loved teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
It is pointless to reply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 4:00 AM
Title: Re: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
JohnJ said:
Telling Garchen Rinpoche's students that they did not receive blessings and contravening what he has said about the equality of those who receive empowerments in person versus via livestream introduces scandal, schism, and divisiveness into the community.

Malcolm wrote:
This what I said:

I am really not certain at all that recorded empowerments have the necessary qualities to confer the stream of blessings. In fact, I am sure that they don't.

That is my opinion. I did not tell anyone what to do or not do. There are some who agree with me, and some who do not.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Dharma protectors and samaya
Content:


KonchokZoepa said:
have to get into it. otherwise why practice vajrayana if you are not aware of what samaya really is, of the different samayas etc.. unlucky for me that i have not found my root guru yet. maybe i have found my future root guru but he lives in nepal and doesn't travel to europe anymore. weak connection…

anyway, thanks for the info.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, one is not informed of what samaya is until after one has taken empowerment. Discussions of samaya border on breaking it, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 3:08 AM
Title: Re: Dharma protectors and samaya
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Protectors are for those who have entered secret mantra in the proper way. If you do not have samaya, you do not need any sort of protector apart from the Three Jewels. I am really not certain at all that recorded empowerments have the necessary qualities to confer the stream of blessings. In fact, I am sure that they don't.

M

Adi said:
That's the way I heard it, too.

Adi


KonchokZoepa said:
Malcolm could you inform or explain that what is the connection between having samaya and then needing a dharma protector. what is the function of the Dharmapalas in relation to samaya? hmm, i have more questions or a better question because i can't form it because i don't have enough knowledge aboutt what i am asking about.

Malcolm wrote:
If you do not have samaya, then there is no need for a Dharma protector since Dharma protectors, in principle, are restricted to highest yoga tantra.

That said, in general we can consider the four directional guardians and so on as "protectors" in the Sūtra system since they will automatically protect those who uphold the Dharma of any of the three vehicles.

Otherwise, Mahakāla, etc., only protect those who have samaya from empowerments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 1:12 AM
Title: Re: Protectors How do I choose one?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...but I don't think a recording is a valid way for someone to receive an empowerment for all kinds of reasons, not merely one.

Sherab Dorje said:
So give a couple of them then.

Malcolm wrote:
There is little point. Suffice it say that a properly granted empowerment concerns the arrangement of profound dependent origination. That cannot occur if the student is not physically present with the teacher in the same room at the same time in some way.

Next, we will have people becoming Buddhist monks on the basis of recorded ordinations.

Hopefully, people who attend such recorded empowerments will make effort to see Garchen Rinpoche in person at a later time. Otherwise, I think there is absolutely no blessing, and in fact, I think there are real problems created in terms of samaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 26th, 2014 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Protectors How do I choose one?
Content:


Sherab Dorje said:
If a teacher the caliber of Garchen Rinpoche believes that empowerments can be received via recording then, really, who are we to doubt him?


Malcolm wrote:
Since when did we leave our minds at the temple door? I am not criticizing Garchen Rinpoche's motivations, for he is a bodhisattva, but I don't think a recording is a valid way for someone to receive an empowerment for all kinds of reasons, not merely one.

Not only am I entitled to my opinion, I am allowed to express it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 25th, 2014 at 11:23 PM
Title: Validity of recorded empowerments
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Discussion split from http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16281.

Protectors are for those who have entered secret mantra in the proper way. If you do not have samaya, you do not need any sort of protector apart from the Three Jewels. I am really not certain at all that recorded empowerments have the necessary qualities to confer the stream of blessings. In fact, I am sure that they don't.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 25th, 2014 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Emakirikiri said:
So would the Parabrahman idea be equivalent to the Shentong idea?

Malcolm wrote:
No, gzhan stong does not accept there there is a unitary ultimate reality in the same sense as Hinduism. gZhan stong instead is asserting that the qualities of buddhahood are ultimate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 25th, 2014 at 8:15 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Alfredo said:
Some Mazard highlights (other than "Canon and Reason" and the farting article, both discussed above)

Malcolm wrote:
Mazard is brewing tempests in teapots, as far as I can see.

Nothing is he says is unknown to people who have been studying Buddhism seriously for some time. He presents these issues however as if they are newly discovered finds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 25th, 2014 at 8:09 PM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The meaning is entirely different. Parabrahman is a state, it exists, it is sat, etc., objectively exists, and everything else beside it is non-existent.

Vidyā (rig pa) is a very specific kind of knowledge about one's own state, the union of clarity and emptiness of one's mind, and not a universal substrate.

So no, I would not agree at all.


Unity said:
Interesting. What is the difference besides being different words? I understand them like two different fingers pointing to the same moon.
You might object, these two fingers are not the same, but I say, it is the same moon.
Would you agree?...Parabrahman? That means the same as Rigpa.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it does not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 25th, 2014 at 7:31 AM
Title: Re: Breaking samaya if one talks about rigpa?
Content:
Unity said:
...Parabrahman? That means the same as Rigpa.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it does not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 25th, 2014 at 3:54 AM
Title: Re: Being a yidam outside sitting session
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In yoga tantra you resume your ordinary form. In highest yoga tantra you are always in the form of the deity 24/7/365

dzogchungpa said:
This is not an issue for me personally, but don't some masters actually practice several HYT yidams? How would that work out then?

Malcolm wrote:
You pick one as your main practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Being a yidam outside sitting session
Content:
smcj said:
For beginners like me, at the end of a meditation session you dissolve the visualization into emptiness. The idea here is that since you have become the deity that you yourself are dissolved into emptiness. Then post-meditation you resume you normal form. Or at least that's my understanding at the present time.

Malcolm wrote:
In yoga tantra you resume your ordinary form. In highest yoga tantra you are always in the form of the deity 24/7/365


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
If you are practicing the sadhana, whether you have done any retreat or not, you should be practicing the yoga of passion if you have a partner. Therefore, that partner better be a fellow practitioner, no?



theanarchist said:
If you are following a vajrayana path you have to be realistic about how far you will be able to get in this lifetime. And for most of those karmamudra is not going to be on the menue this time around. So no reasion to look for a partner that would theoretically be suitable.

Malcolm wrote:
The yoga of passion, connected with creation stage, is not karma mudra practice, it is of the same nature as eating yoga, washing yoga and so on. If you practice this yoga with someone who had not been ripened it is a branch downfall.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 8:00 PM
Title: Re: Guru Pema Tho-threng-tsal
Content:
pemachophel said:
Is Guru Pema Tho-threng-tsal a special form of Guru Rinpoche or simply Guru Rinpoche's secret name? Someone asked me this yesterday and I wasn't sure of the answer. If there is a special form of Guru Pema Tho-threng-tsal with His own posture, gestures, costume, hand symbols, etc., I'd appreciate being steered to a picture or description.



Malcolm wrote:
It is simply Guru P's special name.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:


theanarchist said:
It's the choice of the teachers. They could still do it as it has been done in the past, giving empowerment and teaching vajrayana meditation strictly to people who are actually going into retreat. There are lamas who still handle it that way.

conebeckham said:
Sure.  In Sakya's Lam Dre, where these instructions are found,  as I understand it, there's no "3 year retreat" requirement, but mainly a daily practice commitment.  I think there may sometimes be strict retreat requirement, too, though.

Malcolm wrote:
For Lamdre, no retreat commitment, generally as I understand things, these days people are allowed to attend the Tshogs bshad teachings without making a practice commitment apart from a short Hevajra sadhana. For Vajrayogini, yes there is a retreat if you take the some of the oral transmissions associated with the cycle, since it is easier to do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 10:01 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
conebeckham said:
even to THINK about the Path of Passion as a "Layman's off-time activity," much less the Advanced Completion Stage Karmamudra practice, with a Non-Buddhist spouse or significant other?

Malcolm wrote:
This does not require retreat. It is a requirement from the moment one completes abhisheka.

Of course, this does not mean that it is practical. If anyone wonders why it seems that so few people get realization despite the promises made in the tantras, it is because people do not observe samaya carefully.

M

conebeckham said:
Sure.  The vast majority of those who have received abhisheka don't even do the NyenDrup, much less the post-session activities, though.  Not saying that's good....it's just the way it is.

Not even doing the Nyendrup, how can people talk about the path of passion, much less Karmamudra?

Malcolm wrote:
If you are practicing the sadhana, whether you have done any retreat or not, you should be practicing the yoga of passion if you have a partner. Therefore, that partner better be a fellow practitioner, no?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: Samye Monastery
Content:
kirtu said:
Puja in Samye (this sounds very familiar to me but I can't quite place it yet) ....

Malcolm wrote:
Believe it or not, but Samye has been a Sakya monastery since the 12th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 6:10 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
conebeckham said:
even to THINK about the Path of Passion as a "Layman's off-time activity," much less the Advanced Completion Stage Karmamudra practice, with a Non-Buddhist spouse or significant other?

Malcolm wrote:
This does not require retreat. It is a requirement from the moment one completes abhisheka.

Of course, this does not mean that it is practical. If anyone wonders why it seems that so few people get realization despite the promises made in the tantras, it is because people do not observe samaya carefully.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Do you have to have a highest yoga before taking VY?
Content:


conebeckham said:
Malcolm, I've not read much about the three forms of VY given in Sakya--I know Naro Khacho is by far the main practice, but there's also Indra Dakini and Maitri Dakini.  Do these forms also stem from the Chakrasamvara practices?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

conebeckham said:
Somewhat tangentially, Kamtsang Chakrasamvara is also derived from the 3 main traditions --Luipa's tradition is primary, but there are elements of Ghantapada and Nagpopa's traditions, as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, since they derive from Naropa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 5:58 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:


theanarchist said:
And that's not the case because it's somehow an inheritantly "bad" thing and there needs to be a rule to prevent it, but simply because it's not practical.

Malcolm wrote:
As I gave shown above, there are actually rules against it, in principle.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: Do you have to have a highest yoga before taking VY?
Content:
supermaxv said:
The Vajrayogini that HH Sakya Trizin just gave in New York actually had no prerequisites at al.

Malcolm wrote:
This was a two day major empowerment. Therefore, it requires no previous empowerment, it is self contained.

In general, there were three traditions that came through Naropa to Sakya: Luipa, Krishnapa and Ghantapada's Cakrasamvara traditions. Therefore, it is considered that one should have received one, two or all three of these empowerments as a prerequisite for Naro Khachod, because the completion stage practice of Naro Khacho combines all three traditions into the their essentials, in addition its own special features.

However, the Vajrayogini Empowerment comes from Mahasiddha Virupa, and what is not widely known is that his main deity for 24 years was actually Vajrayogini.


M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 5:01 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
conebeckham said:
"I'm sorry honey, but we have to divorce, since I've just taken refuge and a Buddhist empowerment" said no good Vajrayana Buddhist, ever.


Malcolm wrote:
Even so, for example, ChNN made it very clear on several occasions that it is much better for practitioners to be with other practitioners.
M

Konchog1 said:
I would be interested to see some citations from the Tantras

Malcolm wrote:
The Hevajra tantra and its commentaries describe in detail who can be used as a mudra, and how one goes about finding such a person and training her. One is not allowed to use this person as a mudra until one has granted her abhisheka and given her substantial training in the creation stage.

This stuff is not a joke, and actually, we ought not be discussing it in a public forum.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Even so, for example, ChNN made it very clear on several occasions that it is much better for practitioners to be with other practitioners. I am not going to get in the samaya particulars of this issue, but there are several, in fact.

smcj said:
"Better" is vastly different than "downfall".

Malcolm wrote:
He said it causes obstacles to one's practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
ngodrup said:
So, let me get this...

A person takes an empowerment, is 'anointed' and enthroned as a Deity,
receives all four empowerments connected with body, speech and mind and
has samaya to maintain pure vision is somehow allowed to refer to any
external phenomenon as 'ordinary'? Where is the mandala?
Where are the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 12th, 13th, and 14th root samayas?

There is nothing ordinary under the sun, for one who is actually practicing
authentically and sincerely (without duplicity).


Malcolm wrote:
If a practitioner uses an unripened mudra, blessing her "space" as it were, this is a root downfall because it breaches the 7th root samaya. If one imagines this person mentally as the vidyā (rig ma) it is the first branch downfall. The latter refers to the yoga of passion which is the one of the off-time yogas of a lay person.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
conebeckham said:
"I'm sorry honey, but we have to divorce, since I've just taken refuge and a Buddhist empowerment" said no good Vajrayana Buddhist, ever.


Malcolm wrote:
Even so, for example, ChNN made it very clear on several occasions that it is much better for practitioners to be with other practitioners.
M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 21st, 2014 at 3:56 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Hate Crimes
Content:
Jikan said:
The Maoists are one faction among many with an interest in taking leadership in Nepal.  Participatory democracy is like that--people try to take control of the country.  And with an establishment of such delightful leaders as these, it's hard not to blame the Reds for thinking they just might do a better (fairer) job of it than this crowd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipendra_of_Nepal

Malcolm's right that the political situation in central Asia is very complicated.

Malcolm wrote:
I mean Bhutan...The Maoists already control Nepal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 21st, 2014 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And they should be between the ages of 16 and 26, since the channels, cakras and elements begin to deteriorate after this point.


ConradTree said:
Assuming both people are nonmonks and have the correct empowerments, does one need oral instruction on the practice?

Or can one proceed from reading texts?
bump for a response

Malcolm wrote:
You need an explanation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 21st, 2014 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And they should be between the ages of 16 and 26, since the channels, cakras and elements begin to deteriorate after this point.

Clarence said:
What about all those old Lama's taking on young consorts? Often after never having done consort practice before. Does that mean the purpose is different for them or are their prana and channels young like a 16 year olds?

Malcolm wrote:
They do so for life extension.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 21st, 2014 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Jigme Lingpa's mystical pranayama experience
Content:
dzogchungpa said:
OK, I assume those are the standard colors. Is the white one actually white?

Malcolm wrote:
The best think you can do is practice prāṇāyama yourself and discover this experientially. I can tell you what the texts say, but I have no personal experience with this.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 21st, 2014 at 12:41 AM
Title: Re: Jigme Lingpa's mystical pranayama experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
After one is able to see the color of the vāyu through doing various kinds of practice...

dzogchungpa said:
Is it green?


Malcolm wrote:
There are in general five elemental vāyus, so they have different colors.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: HUM or HUNG?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Pensum..I have heard that except I have heard different teachers pronounce it distinctly both ways

pensum said:
Certainly, people with different accents pronounce things differently, just like Canadians and Americans pronounce "out and about" differently. And the various regions of Tibet have various accents and pronunciations as well, for example Khyentse is pronounced either with a hard "k" or a soft "ch". I don't doubt that in ancient India Sanskrit itself was pronounced differently according to various accents as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, in Bengal, Vajra was probably pronounced "bazra", as in Kashmir, and also Nepal. In Central India, i.e. Varanasi, "Wajra". Benzar on the other hand...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 10:01 PM
Title: Re: Chöd as Sutra & Tantra combined
Content:
Karma Jinpa said:
Chöd is said to be a combination of Sutra and Tantra.  At its root it's based on the view of Prajnaparamita, yet its practice is done through tantric methods (visualizing oneself as the deity and offering the body as ganachakra, etc).

I meant to ask this question of Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche when I had the chance, but the opportunity came and went, so I'll ask it here.  Are any of the various Chöd practices associated with a certain class of tantra (i.e. kriya, charya, yoga, annuttarayoga) or a specific tantric cycle/system (i.e. Guhyasamaja, Chakrasamvara, Vajrabhairava, Hevajra, etc.)?  Does the practice of Chöd in general have certain tantric associations?

Malcolm wrote:
It is more associate with mother tantra.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 9:47 PM
Title: Re: Jigme Lingpa's mystical pranayama experience
Content:
ConradTree said:
You must be referring to this:

https://www.amazon.com/Taking-Result-Path-Teachings-Tradition/dp/0861714431

But there is no mention of gourd in it.  You can search for words through Amazon.


Malcolm wrote:
After one is able to see the color of the vāyu through doing various kinds of practice, when one unifies the prāṇā and apāṇa vayus, it forms the shape of a ball or a gourd. Yogis can see this with their eyes. You and I cannot.

First however you have to get the level of being able to see your prāṇa. Lamdre explains this process very well, but also the treatise on vāyu in the Vima Nyinthig and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: Jigme Lingpa's mystical pranayama experience
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

ConradTree said:
Anything in English that explains the gourd?

Malcolm wrote:
You can examine Lamdre.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Jigme Lingpa's mystical pranayama experience
Content:
ConradTree said:
Yes, but what does that mean?

Is this gourd thing a well known visible sign in pranayama?

And how is it the basis for all his attainments?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

Control of prāṇa is the basis of all attainments.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 8:28 PM
Title: Re: HUM or HUNG?
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I have noticed that some Dzogchen teachers use HUM while others use HUNG..is there really a difference energetically?

asunthatneversets said:
I'd say it's best to go with whichever was used in the transmission you received, but ultimately it doesn't make much difference. Chögyal Namkhai Norbu just recently told the story of Sakya Pandita and the yogi who mispronounced "vajrakilaya" as "chili chilaya", read that story sometime if you get a chance, puts things in perspective with discrepancies like this.


Malcolm wrote:
ChNN always tells this story. The background is that Sapan wrote a text called "How to Pronounce Mantras", in which he makes a strong argument that it is better to pronounce mantras according to rules of Sanskrit pronunciation. He notes that reciting mantras incorrectly may contain blessings, but they are more effective if one tries to pronounce them as well as possible. Naturally, there was a reaction against this idea by many Tibetans even in Sakya.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 8:07 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
Mañjughoṣamaṇi, you think you can explain away that with millions of Buddhist converts in the English speaking world and expats, yet we have no good, complete translation of the Pali cannon, because of the character of Eisel Mazard? We have much better complete translations of so many things millions of English speakers don't claim to follow..

mikenz66 said:
I've seen you and Mazard express your opinion about poor translation a number of times.

Malcolm wrote:
It remains to be seen whether Thrasymachus has any skill at all in Pali, let alone Sanskrit. As such, he is merely repeating hearsay of which he has no ability to verify since he clearly lacks any expertise in any of the four primary Buddhist languages (Sanskrit, Pali, Classical Tibetan and Classical Chinese).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 7:33 PM
Title: Re: Difference between consciousness and the mind
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It means that consciousness descends into the womb, in the case of human being, joining with the spermatozoon and oocyte at the moment of conception.

Gwenn Dana said:
When reading some replies, it seems that it is perhaps a common misunderstanding that father´s or mother´s consciousness would descend into that womb, via some magic sperm or ovum binding.

I only read that consciousness "descends" into that womb, from whereever.

Best wishes
Gwenn

Malcolm wrote:
It means that three things are required for conception to take place — the father's sperm, the mother's egg and a consciousness seeking rebirth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 7:08 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:


asunthatneversets said:
Those who adopt materialist views of the pre-eminence of the brain...

Malcolm wrote:
A108 has been waffling on about the brain since he got here, if you recall....


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 6:48 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Alfredo said:
Speaking of enlightened speech, I've been looking over the past few pages, and noticing the gradual introduction of invectives. I have been enjoying the content of this thread, and selfishly hope that it will not degenerate.

Malcolm wrote:
It degenerated the moment Thrasymachus entered the conversation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 6:28 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
Well using the same criteria, Malcolm, tomorrow if Transcendental Meditation said it was buddhism, it could be also according to their own sources.

Malcolm wrote:
The problem with your view, here is two-fold.

The first problem is the assumption that there is a "true" textual source from which something can be validly described as Buddhadharma. Instead, the criteria of for determining Buddhadharma is not based on some historical literary epoch, it is rather a set of interlinked doctrines which can find their expression in a number of ways providing they adhere to a certain basic set of criteria in terms of view:

Dependent origination
emptiness
karma
rebirth
liberation as a state of freedom from kleśas, etc.

Since both Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna enthusiastically uphold all of the above criteria, no one can look at these traditions and claim they are not Buddhism, including you.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
I don't see how you can claim a teacher is so enlightened that they and almost no one in their lineage needs to be familiar with any knowledge of the closest thing available to the primary sources of the doctrine they claim to follow, "because this is Mahayana/Vajrayana, they are enlightened masters beyond needed to obtain actual knowledge, etc.".

Malcolm wrote:
Your remarks are inappropriate because they arise from wholesale ignorance of Tibetan Buddhism.

Our teachers are completely familiar with the primary sources of our tradition, i.e. Vinaya, Mahāyāna sūtra and Buddhist tantras.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 1:36 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The following post is inappropriate.


smcj said:
...
Meet an enlightened teacher and your worldview will immediately change.

Thrasymachus said:
In operational terms what are you talking about here, exactly? It seems you are talking about someone who claims amazing extra-human mental and other powers, yet they need lowly followers like me and others to give them our money... Alot of people are enlightened using that lazy definition, of claiming they are better than others in some way, so we should give them our money in form of tribute. Lol. Somehow that doesn't impress me.

Here is the infamous confession of Kalu Rinpoche:
if (typeof bbmedia == 'undefined') { bbmedia = true; var e = document.createElement('script'); e.async = true; e.src = 'bbmedia.js'; var s = document.getElementsByTagName('script')[0]; s.parentNode.insertBefore(e, s); }
https://phpbbex.com/ [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Ka3bEN1rs
At 2:17 he says some monks raped him when he was between ages 12-13. If Western converts say they meet those same monks and that they are enlightened, does it mean a tree didn't fall in the woods? I am pretty sure many buddhists easily say everyone is an enlightened master. It seems to me rather than change themselves, they are more interested in the easier path of claiming how close they are to mythically enlightened teacher beings walking around in human guise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
ConradTree said:
My understanding is that both people should be nonmonks, and both people should have the correct empowerments.

I believe these are the only formal prerequisites.

What do you think?


Malcolm wrote:
And they should be between the ages of 16 and 26, since the channels, cakras and elements begin to deteriorate after this point.

ConradTree said:
Is this age thing a requirement or a recomendation?

Malcolm wrote:
You can try, but the main reason most people do not do consort practice is that they are too old.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The funny thing is, this kind of conversation would never be permitted on Dhamma Wheel. It demonstrates bias against Mahāyāna Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 1:17 AM
Title: Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com
Content:
smcj said:
By 1996 he had met a whole lot of people. HHDL hasn't said anything like that about anybody since, to the best of my knowledge.

Malcolm wrote:
But he is not extolling Merton here for his understanding of Buddhism, rather, for his example as a human being. Two entirely different issues.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
smcj said:
As I've said earlier in this thread, the mindset behind this thread is better suited for Dhamma Wheel than here.

daverupa said:
But this, precisely, is the neglect of academic findings that's being discussed. Mahayana can't relate itself to the historical Buddha while ignoring him in every other respect, can it?

Malcolm wrote:
Are we to mediate our sense of "Buddhism" by confining ourselves to what academics opine? There are many historical Buddhas. One for Theravada, another for Mahāyāna, one for Vajrayāna and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
you are pretending that there are great clairvoyants around in Tibetan buddhism, who don't need to be bothered with pesky things like learning now dead languages, studying ancient texts, scholarship or archeology.

Malcolm wrote:
You are such an ignorant fool. Do you think there have never been or are not now great scholars in Tibetan Buddhism? People expert in Sanskrit, studying ancient texts, etc? There have been such people for centuries. And of all people, the Tibetans had more continuous close sustained contact with Indian Buddhists than anyone else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
I will not buy a translation of a translation.

Malcolm wrote:
Then there are no Buddhist books you can buy, since even the texts in Pali are translations from an earlier dialect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Merton was interested in Dzogchen, since he had heard about it from Bede Griffiths. He asked HHDL, HHDL sent him to Chatral.

smcj said:
A quote from Simon E., quoting HHDL, from a different thread:...so how do you explain Thomas Merton a Chtristian monk who was described by HHDL as having at that time a deeper knowledge of Dharma than any westerner he had met ?


Malcolm wrote:
There were not many westerners who had any understanding of Dharma in 1968, least of all who would have met HHDL at that time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Minimum prerequisites for physical karmamudra practice?
Content:
ConradTree said:
My understanding is that both people should be nonmonks, and both people should have the correct empowerments.

I believe these are the only formal prerequisites.

What do you think?


Malcolm wrote:
And they should be between the ages of 16 and 26, since the channels, cakras and elements begin to deteriorate after this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 20th, 2014 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com
Content:
smcj said:
HHDL was very fond and approving of Thomas Merton. So was Chatrul R. I doubt their assessment was dependent on Merton's passing a Madhyamaka quiz.

Malcolm wrote:
Approving what sense? You think they approved of his Catholic views? What they approved of was his interest in Buddhism.

smcj said:
My understanding was that they were approving of his spiritual development, compassion, humility, devotion etc. When Chatrul R. gave him his Refuge name I remember it translating as something like, "dharma person that has no lineage", lol.

Malcolm wrote:
Merton was interested in Dzogchen, since he had heard about it from Bede Griffiths. He asked HHDL, HHDL sent him to Chatral.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com
Content:
smcj said:
HHDL was very fond and approving of Thomas Merton. So was Chatrul R. I doubt their assessment was dependent on Merton's passing a Madhyamaka quiz.

Malcolm wrote:
Approving what sense? You think they approved of his Catholic views? What they approved of was his interest in Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
Still I thought it was interesting they were forthright in describing what Tibetans have been doing for a long time: translating and venerating their root gurus and straying further and further from the best evidence of what the alleged Buddha taught.


Malcolm wrote:
We don't need some puffed up amateur like you telling us what is and isn't taught in Tibetan Buddhism.

Tibetan Buddhism is in no sense straying from the Buddha's teachings. Your assertion is totally offensive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist neglect of academic findings.
Content:
Thrasymachus said:
With time any original message drifts if it is not written down early, and if people don't seek out the oldest extant copy which is the most authentic...

Malcolm wrote:
This is so 19th century...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 9:54 PM
Title: Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com
Content:
pensum said:
how could they possibly know the actual state a dedicated Christian might attain...?


Malcolm wrote:
From the view they espouse. Realization proceeds from view; and if your view is not dependent origination, it is axiomatic that you will [NOT] be able to attain liberation from samsara.

M

smcj said:
That's a little myopic.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Real Narakas
Content:
Lotus Sutra, Ch. 3, Watson said:
For countless kalpas · numerous as Ganges sands · he will at birth become deaf and dumb, · his faculties impaired, · will constantly dwell in hell, · strolling in it as though it were a garden, · and the other evil paths of existence · he will look on as his own home. · Camel, donkey, pig, dog- · these will be the forms he will take on. · Because he slandered this sutra, · this is the punishment he will incur. · If he should become a human being, · he will be deaf, blind, dumb.

Masaru said:
What abominable sins did I commit to be reborn in Texas?

Malcolm wrote:
You can read about this is the Texas durgati pariśodana sūtra, aka Purifying the Terrifying Realm of Texas Sūtra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 8:33 PM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:
tobes said:
The issue of controversy here seems to be something like: is it possible to establish a materialist view (in this case, about the nature of mind or consciousness) without making any discursive/conceptual imputations?

Andrew108 said:
I don't think that is the controversy. To establish any view requires concepts. The issue is should we use Buddhists ones or the ones we are familiar with? If we use Buddhist ones we can get a bit stuck. Especially through the adoption of Buddhist cosmology. If we use materialist ones we can relax. We understand evolution and don't have to substitute a Buddhist concept. We understand that causality is not always personal.

Malcolm wrote:
On a conventional level, causation is not always personal, only karmic causation is personal.


Andrew108 said:
We understand that objects obey laws that weren't made by beings.

Malcolm wrote:
Beings don't make up laws; if you think this, you have not understood anything.

Andrew108 said:
We understand that there is a past and a future.

Malcolm wrote:
The past no longer exists, the future hasn't yet occurred.

Andrew108 said:
There is space/time. Light from the sun takes millions of years to get to the surface of the sun and when it does it takes a mere 8 minutes to get to us on Earth. All of these things are readily accepted.

Malcolm wrote:
This is all merely conventional.

Andrew108 said:
We can let go of our concepts much sooner than those who take the mind to be the source of everything. Or who have the idea that the essence of mind is emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
It does not appear that way from where I sit.

Andrew108 said:
What Thigle has been saying is that non-fixation is a fact. Or needs to be a fact. It needs to be absolutely obvious. The sooner concepts are dropped regarding mind, then the sooner the factual status of non-fixation can come about. Milarepa sang that appearances were his texts. This is an extraordinarily important point. But if we hold to a Buddhist view regarding the primacy of mind, it is very hard to see appearances as texts. We are always adding to the appearances rather than just letting them be in their own nature whilst we are also in that nature.

Malcolm wrote:
Milarepa also understood that are appearances existed as mind.

Andrew108 said:
The Mahamudra instruction regarding locating the mind (in this case mental consciousness) is not really weakened by saying that mental consciousness is in the brain.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course it is -- you've just given the mind a location.

Andrew108 said:
Those who adopt Buddhist views of the pre-eminence of mind (and I have done this), are not able to let go of subtle concepts regarding mind. Since they cannot let go of these subtle concepts regarding mind, they are not able to progress. That is the long and short of it. If you understand consciousness is located in the brain then go with that. The sooner you are able to have a direct experience of reality not mediated through concepts then the better you'll be.

Malcolm wrote:
Consciousness is not located in the brain. It is located, conventionally, in the center of the body.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 10:03 AM
Title: Re: paramhansa yogananda
Content:
JKhedrup said:
Eminent figures have been spoken to. Incidentally if Malcolm (as he prefers now) were to tead this I don't think he'd be incredulous because he has been around long enough to have heard it before.

Malcolm wrote:
In general, the Sakyapa POV is that monks use a jñānamudra.

On the other hand, practitioners who have accomplished the path of strong heat are not capable of breaking samaya, so if they use a karmamudra??? This is a difficult point.

Beyond this however, Vajrayogini, for Sakyapas, obviates the need for kamramudra.

Finally, in Dzogchen, Karmamudra is criticized as being a lower path. Even Saraha criticizes it...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 9:57 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:
dude said:
I reject that wholesale.

Malcolm wrote:
What are you rejecting wholesale?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 9:41 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:


Sönam said:
Do you real think that Buddha state could be explained by mind ? ... what can be explained has to be within the scope of the explainer. Buddha state is not in the scope of mind ... otherwise is right.
That should end this interminable discussion ... but it will not. Mind trip.

Sönam

Malcolm wrote:
It pretty much depends on what you mean by the term "mind". There are plenty of Dzogchen texts that assert buddhahood cannot be found outside of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 19th, 2014 at 9:39 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Hate Crimes
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
We do what we can, and we wish happiness on all. But the best use of our time, until we really have the capacity to truly practice engaged bodhicitta, is to practice Dharma to increase our wisdom. Until that time we should not be giving away our limbs, nor risking our lives trying to "help" others thinking that this is somehow "bodhisattva" activity. As long as we have limited compassion, we should be judicious about how we decide we are going to "help".

Nighthawk said:
You may be right but this is a very weak attitude.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a realistic attitude.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 18th, 2014 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Hate Crimes
Content:
Alfredo said:
There are thousands more stories like this. You must have great confidence in the Bhutan government, military, and police. Or a remarkable hatred of conmmunism, that you would show such disregard for the human rights, and civil legal rights, of noncombatants.

Malcolm wrote:
The Bhutanese were fair, as far as I am concerned. The Nepali Communists wanted to take over Nepal, and used the presence of the Lhotsampas as a pretext for agitation. The whole situation is far more complicated than you paint it. And in the end, the Bhutanese Gvt. has the right to secure their borders and expel those they deem illegal. Not all Lhotsampas were expelled, incidentally. The real crime is the way the Nepalese Communists have abandoned their own countrymen in camps in Eastern Nepal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 18th, 2014 at 7:23 PM
Title: Re: A Physicalist Theory of Mind
Content:
Jayarava said:
But at least we can say that the one thing that does not provide that continuity is vijñāna..."

Malcolm wrote:
This is not true; an Bhavaviveka (if not Candrakirti) specifically allows that conventionally speaking, it is vijñāna that takes rebirth.  Moreover, when the we look at the chain of dependent origination analyzed by such texts as the Vibhanga, they clearly are discussing a stream of mental events when rebirth is cast over three lifetimes.

Then of course there is the old "when vijñāna descends into the womb..." in the Mahāniddana sutra.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 18th, 2014 at 9:41 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Hate Crimes
Content:
Alfredo said:
Are you not ashamed?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 18th, 2014 at 5:39 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist Hate Crimes
Content:
Alfredo said:
The reality is that a bunch of people who had been born in Bhutan were forced into exile, apparently in order to prevent that Nepali-speaking Hindu population from gaining a demographic majority...

Malcolm wrote:
That is the communist version of events. In reality, there was a terrorist campaign waged by Nepalis in order to gain control of the Bhutanese Government -- but they failed.

Also, the United States is one of the very few countries where citizenship is granted through birth. Most countries in the world do not do this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 18th, 2014 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Content:


Andrew108 said:
Freedom from extremes means not mediating reality through concepts.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it means that when things are examined their existence and their non-existence is no where to be found.

Andrew108 said:
I guess this thread has gone way off topic. The reason I have posted so much is because I think a realist/materialist view is more conducive to this practice of 'direct experience not mediated through concepts'.

Malcolm wrote:
You may think so, but it merely shows that you are fixated.

Andrew108 said:
In the end you have this cognition - just that - and that cognition is not separate from reality. It belongs in reality. If you see this reality as belonging to mind, as being in the mind, then reality is resting on a concept that stands between you and direct experience.

Malcolm wrote:
This is the problem with your view: you see reality as a container in which are contained cognitions and things. This is an inherently dualistic view; it is also essentialist.

In fact, there is no reality at all, apart from the reality that is constructed by minds acting together. The great Dzogchen master Shabkar reports in canto 11 of his famed Flight of the Garuda:

When a devaputra asked the Buddha:
“Who made Meru, the sun and the moon, and so on?”
The Buddha said:
“There is no other creator here.
The attachment of the traces of one’s conceptuality
imputes them, grasps them and then they appear in that way.
Everything is created by one’s mind.”
When the devaputra asked the Buddha again:
“How can the attachment of my concepts
make the hardness and stability of
Meru, the sun and moon, and so on?”
The Buddha said:
“In Varanasi, an old woman
meditated her own body as a tiger.
Since the villagers saw her
as a tiger, they evacuated the village.
If one is able to appear like that for a little while,
if one cultivates mental traces for beginningless lifetimes,
one will be able to appear like this for a year.”
Therefore, everything is created by the mind...
therefore, whatever is imputed by the concepts of the mind
can be perceived by others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 18th, 2014 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: extibetanbuddhist dot com
Content:
pensum said:
how could they possibly know the actual state a dedicated Christian might attain...?


Malcolm wrote:
From the view they espouse. Realization proceeds from view; and if your view is not dependent origination, it is axiomatic that you will be able to attain liberation from samsara.

M


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 17th, 2014 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: Astrology in East Asian Buddhism
Content:
Gwenn Dana said:
Astrology appears to be a set of interpretations. Thoughts. Starlight Feng Shui.
I rather take refuge in Buddha than in astrology's explanations.

Best wishes
Gwenn

Indrajala said:
Funny thing is according to some Mahāyāna scriptures the Buddha in fact taught astrology.

Malcolm wrote:
According to Tibetan tradition, astrology (calculation) was first introduced from China where it has been taught by Manjuśṛī to Kong tse 'phrul rgyal, often identified as Confucius. Later Kalacakra was introduced (1027) and this is when Tibetans first began to officially use the 120 (five elements * 12 animals) year cycle. This is also why dating anything prior to 1027 in Tibetan annals is a problem without external references.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 17th, 2014 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Kalachakra practice in Sakya
Content:
pueraeternus said:
[

I see. Is this Vajramala the same as the Vajravali?
https://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Mandalas-Vajravali-Tantra-Samuccaya-Raghuvira/dp/8186471014/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397705467&sr=8-1&keywords=vajravali

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, vali and mala are alternate both translated as phreng ba into Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 17th, 2014 at 7:44 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist Hate Crimes
Content:
Alfredo said:
but Bhutan's government (officially Drukpa Kargyud, with some Nyingma representation) perpetrated ethnic cleansing of Nepali-speaking Hindus in the 1990's. \

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all. Bhutan expelled illegal immigrants in response to a communist threat against their government.

M


