﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 4:26 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
conebeckham said:
Excellent, thank you.

One more, somewhat tangential, question, Namdrol, if I may....."Thamel Gyi Shepa." ?  SNIP

Namdrol said:
tha mal gyi shes pa, according to Gyalwa Yangonpa, is a yogi's term for ye shes.


conebeckham said:
Is ye shes "beyond mind?"


Malcolm wrote:
Of course.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
username said:
I wouldn't use such phrases when questioning the recognition by great masters, school heads, or even in case of discussion regarding any person.

Malcolm wrote:
There is only one person who for sure I accept as the reincarnation of the person they are supposed to be the reincarnation, and that person is Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. That is based on events I have related elsewhere.

As for the rest of them, well you know what I think of the tulku system in general.

I am not in the habit of accepting things merely because some person with a high worldly position [and yes, by that I mean all the high lamas in Tibetan Buddhism] says it. I keep my own counsel with regards to these things, keeping Tibetan cultural institutions like tulku recognitions separate from the Dharma.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 2:48 AM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
Regarding the terminology used.."story".

Perhaps this is unintended but the way this is being used infers some differing tale.
Past lives being perceived by one may indeed, as most here know, be a progressive thing for some.
With more spiritual understanding  comes more recollection.
On occasion a circumstance may also presents in which the elicitation of a memory of past lives ensues.
A past spiritual life of attainment is perhaps replicated in this life. As that replication occurs prior capacity may also occur.

So I would say it is quite normal for one to have them not one day and have them the next.

Just to clarify that as the term seemed or could be taken to infer a story was being told.


Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas have perfect recall of their past lives. In fact, any highly realized bodhisattva on the stages will.

My point is that tulkus with no or hazy memories of past lives does not make for impressive tulkus.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Lazy_eye said:
Also, not to quibble, but aren't there wrong views #3 and #4 (namely, "both is and is not" and "neither is nor is not")?

Malcolm wrote:
3 is just a restatement of 1, as 4 is merely a restatement of 2. They are necessary because there are some who suppose that an instance of become involves being both existent and non-existence at one and the same time.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 2:22 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
ratna said:
Dan Martin, The Early Education of Milarepa: http://www.thlib.org/static/reprints/jts/JTS_02_03.pdf

R


Malcolm wrote:
That's the one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet
Content:
Namdrol said:
My statement is a common truism in archaeology i.e. plastic culture does not allow one to extrapolate very much about the people who made this or that thing.

Tenzin1 said:
Patience, patience. They're working on it. The field of Zhang Zhung archaeology is still in its infancy.

Namdrol said:
There are no Celts in the Danube today, that is the point. Likewise, people have this idea that somehow the key to early Tibetan history is locked away in Zhang Zhung archaeology -- but they are looking in the wrong place. The Tibetan people moved into the Tibetan plateau from the lower valleys of the east. This is clearly recorded in Tibetan migration legends of the four major clans.
N

Tenzin1 said:
Oh. Silly me, I thought they were researching Zhang Zhung for the sake of learning more about Zhang Zhung on its own merits.

Malcolm wrote:
These days, the motivation for backing research in Zhang Zhung mostly has to do with the ancient origins of Tibetan culture.


Tenzin1 said:
The origins of the Tibetan people are much more complex than simply migrations from the east. Current scholarship also postulates a migration from the north or north-east as well.  Genetic analysis shows that Tibetan nomads have Altaic ancestry as well as Iranian or Indo-European, while sedentary Tibetans have mainly Sinitic ancestry. And linguistic analysis confirms this north Asian/South Asian ethnic split; the vocabulary is largely Sinitic, while the grammar has Altaic features.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan Nomads and the people of the Yarlung Dynasty are two distinct peoples, we agree. Tibetan nomads adopted Tibetan language, but in areas where they are stronger, places such as Golog, their language has more variance from standard Tibetan. We also know that people from Kham do not consider themselves "Bod pa", Tibetans.

But this is precisely my point, pots are not people. We are not going to learn very much about the roots of Tibetan culture and so on by looking at Zhang Zhung archaeology. We will probably not even learn very much about Bon.

Bon however is a religion that calls itself "The original pre-Buddhsit religion of Tibet" and therefore, since it sites itself in Zhang Zhung, the motive for doing archaeology in that region is, at this point, inextricably bound up with the question of Bon in Tibetan culture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 1:11 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
'never went away' means he was fully enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
The Shakyamuni Buddha was an emanation. This means his apparent career of taking birth nirvana was all a drama, a play, like Ron said, a movie meant to edify and encourage others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The Mahayāna account is that Buddha achieved full awakening countless eons ago.

David N. Snyder said:
If the Buddha was fully awakened eons ago, what happened on the Full Moon day of Vesakha, approx. 528 BCE in Bodh Gaya? (according to the Mahayana)

Malcolm wrote:
Buddha enacted full awakening for the benefit of others, as part of his twelve deeds.
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level2_lamrim/initial_scope/safe_direction/twelve_enlightening_deeds_buddha.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 24th, 2011 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
Namdrol said:
I have not seen the movie, but I remember our argument on E-Sangha. At best, Gesar is ambivalent about the tulku system -- but when push comes to shove, he believes he is a tulku of an awakened master even though he has no memories of his past life, and so on. So his faith in the tulku system is not really an issue.

username said:
That is not true.


Malcolm wrote:
On E-Sangha he denied have memories of his past life when I challenged him about it -- that is a fact.

Whether he has changed his story since then is another matter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 11:27 PM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
conebeckham said:
Thanks, Namdrol...any chance your work will be published? Shri Chakrasamvara is a primary interest of mine.

Malcolm wrote:
Only here or on my blog.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Does Clear Light of Sleep = Jhana?
Content:
Enochian said:
Does Clear Light of Sleep = Jhana?



Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Namdrol said:
present at Shri Parvata (Sri Sailam in modern India) in Andhra Pradesha as a sambhogakāya.


Enochian said:
You mean right now?

I've been there!

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, right now and for as long as the sun and moon exist.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Lazy_eye said:
It seems to me though that if we are not at a certain stage of realization, we have to approach "emptiness" conceptually, at least so we can know what it is not. Though understanding via concept and definition are not finally prajna, we still may need them as signposts.

There's a difference between understanding emptiness and realizing emptiness. The former by nature implies concept and even the idea of self. (There has to be someone who "stands under" it).

Concept, though, necessarily involves distance -- to conceive of something means you are regarding it (from outside). So it follows that a person who "conceives" emptiness cannot be realizing it fully.

Not meaning to be pushy, but might anyone here have a take on my question above?
Can we posit emptiness simply as a subtractive process -- i.e. as the result of abandoning all wrong views?

Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness is the abandoning of wrong views itself.

But there are only two wrong views i.e. "is" and "is not".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Update:

Have been working on an interesting text by Sakya Pandita on the history of Cakrasamvara.

According to this history, the first human being to receive Cakrasamvara was Saraha I, the teacher of the tantric siddha, Nāgārjuna. In terms of when Saraha lived, he does not really say, apart from asserting that Saraha is present at Shri Parvata (Sri Sailam in modern India) in Andhra Pradesha as a sambhogakāya.

Luhipa was the disciple of Saraha II aka Shavaripa. Sapan definitely situates him during the reign of the famed Buddhist king of Bengal, Shri Dharmapala, whose reign extended circa 775 to 810 CE.

Luihipa was a scribe in the court of Dharmapāla until he met Savaripa. We do not know when Luhipa was active during this 35 year period, but since his retreat was 9-12 years, and since legend holds that Dharmapāla became a disciple of Luhipa, we assume a later date for Luhipa and put his encounter with Dharmapāla around 810. Supposedly Dharmapāla left his kingdom and took a job as a pounder of rice in what is now known as Orrisa becoming known as the siddha Demgipa.

From Demgipa on, a significant feature of Cakrasamvara practice is the requirement that high cast practitioners take low caste occupations under low cast woman.

In any event, we have a fairly firm range to date the Cakrasamvara tantra from -- given this we can presume that the Cakrasamvara must date to the early 8th century CE. Since it mentions the Guhyasamaja and a number of other tantras, we can date those, as well as Saraha I, the first Siddha, to the late 7th century CE.

Also Situ Panchen asserts that Lohipa revealed the Yoginisamcarya tantra, which details the process of the sadhana practice.

This has a happy consequence for the Mahamudra text in the Vima Nyinthig which mentions Saraha by name.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Differences between the schools
Content:
dzoki said:
Nyingmapas engage in sex.

Malcolm wrote:
You forgot booze.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet
Content:
Namdrol said:
Pots are not people. For example, would we expect to find Celts today living along the Danube?

Tenzin1 said:
?!  Non-sequitur. We do find the descendants of Celts in the Danube region today, and that is determined by genetic studies, but what does that have to do with dating Zhang Zhung culture?  Carbon-dating pots is one way archeology is done. Stay tuned for further developments.

Thanks for the link, k-y.

Malcolm wrote:
My statement is a common truism in archaeology i.e. plastic culture does not allow one to extrapolate very much about the people who made this or that thing.

There are no Celts in the Danube today, that is the point. Likewise, people have this idea that somehow the key to early Tibetan history is locked away in Zhang Zhung archaeology -- but they are looking in the wrong place. The Tibetan people moved into the Tibetan plateau from the lower valleys of the east. This is clearly recorded in Tibetan migration legends of the four major clans.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:


dzoki said:
Definitely dpal zla gsang thig le rtsa ba'i rgyud has a short passage on tummo, also sgyu 'phrul rgya mtsho rgyud  has the following passage, according to Gyurme Dorje's translation:

Malcolm wrote:
It is hard to date these texts too. So we really cannot say anything conclusive with regard to gtum mo based on these texts. Further, we know that karmamudra practices predate gtum mo. So, pranāyama combined with karmamudra practices are present from a very early period. The point is, however, we don't know when gtummo practices entered Tibet.

Quite early, if we accept most of the Kilaya tantras, etc as authentic. If not, then quite late.

Davidson, I believe as  reference to this fact.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:
David N. Snyder said:
Siddhartha was not enlightened when he left the palace.


Namdrol said:
According to the shravakayana only.

N



kalden yungdrung said:
According the previous 254 lives of the Buddha Shakyamuni as a Bodhisattva, written in the Jatakas, is it difficult to say that he was already before enlightened.

Malcolm wrote:
As I said, according to the shravakayana only.

The Mahayāna account is that Buddha achieved full awakening countless eons ago.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
samdrup said:
Thanks Namdrol,

I found the Harvard paper by Trungram Rinpoche called 'Gampopa, the Monk and the Yogi, His Life and Teachings' I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. Is this the paper you mean or is there another one, more specific to Milarepa?

best wishes,

s.


Malcolm wrote:
Maybe it is another paper I read.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: HIDDEN BON TREASURES
Content:
Tenzin1 said:
I notice that the texts are written in Tibetan, not the Zhang Zhung script.  Do you know if the Zhang Zhung language was pre-Tibetan, and if so, to what language family it belonged?  Is there linguistic information available on the Zhang Zhung language?

The film comes to the conclusion that ancient Bon did include "ultimate teachings". But the texts are said to date only to approx. 1400 AD, which is quite late in Zhang Zhung history.   This is hardly proof that early Bon contained teachings about liberation.  More research needs to be done.  In any case, why should Bon practitioners feel that they need to somehow measure up to Buddhism?  The shamanic tradition is worthy of respect in its own right.

The Karmapa's website used to have information on Zhang Zhung that said it had been a matriarchal society. Even though the tradition now appears to be controlled by monks, could that have been a later, Tibetan-influenced phenomenon?  Practitioners of the older, shamanic traditions, according to film footage I have of  Ladakhi "oracles" practicing their craft, are women. Do you have any information on matriarchy in Zhang Zhung, or in Bon traditions, kalden yungdrung? Thank you for posting this film.


Malcolm wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Himalayish_languages " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is a relative of Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Namdrol said:
That is an interesting question. We actually have complaints by Nyingma authors from the tenth century expressing concern about new-fangeled, new-age clap trap yoga practices using cakras, and so on, borrowed from Hindus and being imported from India. It suggests that tummo was adapted from the mother tantras when they came to Tibet.

dzoki said:
What about Guhyagarbhatantra? No tummo there? I mean in particular in dpal gsang ba'i snying po de kho na nyid rnam par nges pa'i rgyud chen po

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.




dzoki said:
also I would expect he ru ka gal po che'i rgyud to have some of this stuff, since it said to be just like mother tantras of sarma in many respects.

Malcolm wrote:
Supposedly, according to Dudjom, this is the base of Lamdre.



dzoki said:
Also Vairochana's thrulkhor has a practice with chakras and channels, unfortunately at present we have only two of the three texts regarding this topic from Vairo Nyengyu. The third one was supposed to deal with the tummo itself. The first one deals with yantras and tsa lungs (which have practices with channels and chakras), second is dealing with removing obstacles and gaining benefits.

Malcolm wrote:
Very hard to date these texts.


[/quote]
Do Sakya Vajrakilaya and Vishuddha have dzogrim with characteristics? [/quote]

Not that I know of.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:
David N. Snyder said:
Siddhartha was not enlightened when he left the palace.


Malcolm wrote:
According to the shravakayana only.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
samdrup said:
Hey Namdrol,

Could you please give us a brief overview of Sakya Pandita's view of Dzogchen, also Gampopa?

Also, when you have time, could you talk more about Milarepa's Dzogchen Gurus/practice.

Many thanks,

s

Malcolm wrote:
Sapan's view of Dzogchen was that it was the name of the completion stage practice of the Nyingma school. As far as I know, Sapan had only received sems sde.

He rejected a so called "pure dzogchen" as an independent yana.

Gampopa considered Dzogchen to be a bit one sided also, too much emphasis on emptiness.

There is a paper written about Milarepa's gurus, I think by Trungram Rinpoche while he was at harvard -- look for that.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 23rd, 2011 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


conebeckham said:
Oh, forget it.

Malcolm wrote:
Exactly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Tantric Deities / Protectors
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
- What are here the practical remedies / punishment to get again a good service?
KY[/color]

Malcolm wrote:
In reality, only shamans torture spirits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Namdrol said:
You will never see emptiness in meditation directly for emptiness is a not a thing that can be seen.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Would it be more accurate to say,
"In meditation, you can  never find a thing which you can point to and say, 'that's emptiness'?"

Malcolm wrote:
When you don't find anything, that not-finding is finding emptiness.

When you don't see anything, that not-seeing is seeing emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 8:06 PM
Title: Re: Tantric Deities / Protectors
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,

Thanks for your correct answers N.

I heard in case a human would die, who did not had  a malicious harmful mind during lifetime, could be become a demon in the Bardo.

- What are here the causes?

Malcolm wrote:
Fear of the bardo exeriences.

kalden yungdrung said:
- How long does this karma last ?

Malcolm wrote:
Difficult to say -- depends on the sentient being.


kalden yungdrung said:
- Is the only way here to get released / liberated to become a Protector?

Malcolm wrote:
No, there are a number of bardo rituals one can do for such beings

kalden yungdrung said:
- In case i would subjugate a demon would he/she then be my property?

Malcolm wrote:
Your servant, yes. But in Dharma we don't keep slaves.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
username said:
Also saying, without reference, Tsongkhapa did not think Dzogchen practice is appropriate is an insult in the Dzogchen sub-forum.

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapa criticized Dzogchen in his commentary on Madhyamaka-avatara for abandoning the two truths.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: Tantric Deities / Protectors
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
- How can somebody become a demon?

Malcolm wrote:
By cultivating a malicious harmful mind --that's all you need to do. It's easy.



kalden yungdrung said:
Can such a converted Demon again be excommunicated or of no more use anymore and put aside as an empty bag?
- Who can proclamate a converted demon as a Tantric Deity?
- Who can excommunicate or punish a Tantric Deity like in this case a Protector?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally speaking, awakened protectors like Mahakāla and so on are tamed by Vajradhara. Worldly deities are tamed by powerful yogis.


kalden yungdrung said:
- What will happen if a converted Demon / Tantric Deity / Protector breaks the law/oath of the subjugation?

Malcolm wrote:
They will go to hell as samaya breakers.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Namdrol said:
The yogas underpinning the mahāmudra movement and tantras and their terminology as we know have non-Buddhsit origins and are heavily informed by Ayurveda, etc.

N

Enochian said:
Why do you say this?

Do you have something more than Alexis Sanderson's work?


Malcolm wrote:
Oh, the sadanga yoga in Guhyasamaja, five vāyus in Ayurveda etc., all of these things are found in the pre-buddhist Upanishads.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 7:27 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Namdrol said:
You will never see emptiness in meditation directly for emptiness is a not a thing that can be seen.

PMTF said:
Namdrol

I am unable to understand what you have said here. Have you said a mind cannot abide in emptiness? In my Hinayana studies, emptiness is referred to as "a mode of perception". Refer to Thanissaro monk. If emptiness cannot be experienced then how can it be known?


Malcolm wrote:
Unconditioned space cannot be experienced, nor cessations. Emptiness is like that.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 9:06 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
mudra said:
In the schools of individual liberation such as Theravada, I always had the impression that they discuss "selflessness/anatta" - mainly that of persons.

Lazy_eye said:
I'm embroiled in a huge angry discussion on another forum, and the argument seems to be that Shakyamuni Buddha's teaching of dependent origination (in the nikayas/agamas) did not necessarily extend to all phenomena -- whereas sunyata clearly does. Therefore, the argument goes, sunyata represents an unwarranted ontologization of D.O. and thus a departure from the Buddha's intent.

Malcolm wrote:
DO extends to all conditioned phenomena. There are only three kinds of unconditioned phenomena -- space and the two types of cessation.

Further, you must ask them, if shunyata does not extend to all phenomena, than selflesness should not either. If selflessness extends to all phenomena, also sunyata does as well, since they are synonymous.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
conebeckham said:
Excellent, thank you.

One more, somewhat tangential, question, Namdrol, if I may....."Thamel Gyi Shepa."  I know you're a Dzokchen guy, but you've studied some Mahamudra....do you feel this term refers to something "beyond" mind in the sense that we're talking about it here?


Malcolm wrote:
tha mal gyi shes pa, according to Gyalwa Yangonpa, is a yogi's term for ye shes.

I am not a "dzogchen guy" actually. I have studied not just "some" mahamudra, I have studied and practice mahāmudra for 20 years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 7:45 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:


caveman said:
How is it that simple words can throw so many people off their meditation cushions.

Malcolm wrote:
I think you should concern yourself with your own cushion, and not the cushions of others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 6:09 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
conebeckham said:
So that I understand you correctly, the "Abiding in Mind without objects"  is the method, and involves the mind (Mental consciousness), which is "what we work with" when meditating on emptiness,  but the "results" of such method are beyond mind.  Yes?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, to paraphrase Nāgarjuna, one must comprehend the ultimate through the relative, and through realizing the ultimate, nirvana is attained.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 6:06 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:
alpha said:
And on the label it says "HELL"

The anger burned for 5 hours and it produced 3 pages.
Maybe Mucho Demdrug and Sangwa Ngangring can purify this place.....


Malcolm wrote:
Maybe Bonpos with chips on their shoulders about the Buddha should take it somewhere else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 5:52 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:


caveman said:
[vitriol deleted]


Malcolm wrote:
You could have just been honest from the beginning that you had a sectarian Bonpo agenda of criticizing the Buddha.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
conebeckham said:
Right, but then....
Namdrol said:
Abiding in the mind without objects
has the characteristic of space;
that meditation of space is 
held to be the meditation of emptiness.

conebeckham said:
doesn't this imply that in "the meditation of emptiness" (equivalent to "realization?") one "abides" in the mind without "objects?"
In what way, then, is it "going beyond mind" rather than "abiding in the mind without objects?"


Malcolm wrote:
No, this is  not equivalent with realizing emptiness. This is a method.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 3:27 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
conebeckham said:
Namdrol, if, as Shantideva says, the "realization" is beyond mind, I can understand how the presence or absence of thoughts as contents of consciosness makes no difference.  Is it not, then, the very Space-like" nature of consciousness, which may or may not contain the clouds of thoughts, at any given moment, and, if so, how is this "beyond mind?"

Malcolm wrote:
Shantideva said the ultimate is beyond the range of the mind because mind is relative. Also signs and characteristics are relative. In order to realize emptiness one must go beyond signs, beyond mind.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
conebeckham said:
In other words, "Conceptualization" is not the coarse level of "mulling it over," which you claim some have "put aside."

Instead, it's the entire contents of the mental consciousness, I think.  Mental images of perceptions, intuitions, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Here, when we say non-conceptual, we do not mean a mind in which there is an absence of thought.

When consciousness is freed from signs and characteristics, this is called the realization of emptiness. An non-conceptual mind may still indeed be trapped by signs and characteristics. Thus, the Bodhittavivarana states:


Abiding in the mind without objects
has the characteristic of space;
that meditation of space is 
held to be the meditation of emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:


caveman said:
As would anyone who was abandoned by the person they thought loved them and married them.

Malcolm wrote:
People trapped in samsara have a very narrow view of reality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 2:59 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Actually, Rahula was pretty pissed at his father, in fact.

N

conebeckham said:
Yeah.  Initially, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, then he calmed down, ordained, and became an arhat, eventually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 2:32 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:
caveman said:
And you Sir are only guessing about why the buddha did what he did.

Deeds Speak and you can make up all the reasons but Sir you will never convince a woman that leaving your wife and child for the dharma is OK.

They do not consider this enlightened or compassion in action.

They call it cowardly!

conebeckham said:
Of course I'm guessing!  But, sitting here in the 21st Century, I have the good fortune to see what the results of the Buddha's actions were.  Seems to me he made the right choices.  From what I've read and studied, it seems to me that his family felt the same way.  Do you think Sakyamuni's wife and child called him "Cowardly?"

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, Rahula was pretty pissed at his father, in fact.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 1:43 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:
caveman said:
Sorry Namdrol but you are

Can you or anyone address the REAL LIFE ACTIONS of the Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
I did. Buddha had twelve deeds. So did Tonpa Shenrab. But they are different twelve deeds, because they are different emanations who lived at different times and served different cultures.

For example, the past Buddha Sikhin did not form a monastic Sangha. So none of his followers were monastic. He was not a monastic.

Whether one has a family or not has nothing to do with whether one is a fully awakened buddha.

In this case, you are barking up the wrong tree. Sakyamuni Buddha was fully awakened because he was a _nirmanakāya_. His specific manifestation, being born as a Kṣatriya, leaving home, was all part of his display relevant to Indian culture in 5th century BCE.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: World's oceans in 'shocking' decline
Content:


Huseng said:
Makes me wonder where we'll be in ten, twenty and thirty years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 22nd, 2011 at 1:14 AM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:


caveman said:
"I think your Bonpo lama was overlooking the fact that a) the Buddha was married b) he had a child."
Yes he was married BUT---

Did the Buddha return to his wife as her husband and to his son as his father?

Malcolm wrote:
They both eventually ordained and became arhats.

caveman said:
Was married life to hard for a totally enlightened buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
Shakyamuni Buddha was an emanation. He emanated a type of Nirmanakāya suitable for that particular culture.

Your Bonpo friend is does not seem to understand the principle of emanations, or he is conveniently forgetting it for the purpose of polemics.

According to Mahāyāna accounts, Śākyamuni Buddha did not "achieve" awakening. He was awakened many countless eons ago.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2011 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Was the Buddha "FULLY" enlightened?
Content:
caveman said:
I hope we can have a polite yet critical discussion on this topic.

I was once talking to a Bonpo Rinpoche about enlightenment and the Buddha.

Rinpoche stated that the Buddha was enlightened but not fully enlightened.

He stated that to be a fully enlightened Buddha you had to be a "Married Buddha" with children.

....

What do you think my friends?

Malcolm wrote:
I think your Bonpo lama was overlooking the fact that a) the Buddha was married b) he had a child.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2011 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: Prayer To Achieve The Rainbow Body
Content:
Sönam said:
who wrote it ?

Sönam


Malcolm wrote:
It is part of the Yangzab Dzogchen Ngondro practice. It is from Drikung Kagyu.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2011 at 9:02 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Namdrol said:
You should read Karmey's article.

heart said:
Ok, I did, and he is not saying that he isn't the Dalai Lama:

"‘The official Tsawa Kachu of the Ganden Palace showed me statues and rosaries (that belonged to the Fourth Dalai Lama and other lamas), but I was unable to distinguish between them! When he left the room I heard him tell the people outside that I had successfully passed the tests. Later, when he became my tutor, he would often admon- ish me and say: “You must work hard, since you were unable to recognize the objects!”"

You might want to interpret it like that, or not.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
The Dalai Lama was never a tulku lineage like the Karmapas were once i.e. self-recognized.

So, I don't think that the fifth Dalai Lama is actually the reincarnation of the fourth. But I do think the 6th, 13th and 14th are the reincarnations of the fifth.

N

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2011 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Namdrol said:
If shunyata is a characteristic of things, all people at all times would cognize emptiness conventionally.

PadmaVonSamba said:
why do you assume that?

Malcolm wrote:
Here a characteristic (lakṣana) refers to something like heat of a fire, wetness of water etc. If emptiness is a lakṣana, then just as everyone who feels water will feel wetness, everyone who sees any object will see emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2011 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
So, I suggest that sunyata can be experienced, but it can't be experienced as a thing in and of itself, because it isn't a thing in and of itself.

It has no defining characteristics because it is a defining characteristic.


Malcolm wrote:
One cannot divided a thing and its characteristics. If shunyata is a characteristic of things, all people at all times would cognize emptiness conventionally. Since they do not, we can rule out your proffered solution.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2011 at 8:27 AM
Title: Re: Merigar West Retreat
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Cool..thank you so much..I have my sons and so many other people who want to see this...is it going to be at 10 am to noon local like the others?


Malcolm wrote:
Except first day, yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2011 at 7:42 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


Namdrol said:
It means you must have a sense organ, an object and a consciousness meeting together.


PadmaVonSamba said:
Thank you.
Can the activity of the mind function as all three of these, as when dreaming?

Malcolm wrote:
There is a mental organ, mental objects (memories) and a mental consciousness.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2011 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Namdrol said:
"Realizing" emptiness means the mind becomes free from the proliferation of the four extremes [is, isn't, both, neither]. That is not a cognitive event since it [the mind] has now become free from all apprehended characteristics. At this point, the mind has been transcended.

N

conebeckham said:
So, is there such a thing, in your view, as a "direct cognition of emptiness?"

Or, another way of asking, what is it that "realizes" emptiness if not the mind?

Malcolm wrote:
I will answer your first question, according to Santideva:

"The ultimate is beyond the experiential range of the mind,
the mind is conventional."

So no, there cannot be a direct cognition of emptiness, since emptiness is ultimate and the mind is relative.

However when the mind is freed from all characteristics, then that can be considered the realization of emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 21st, 2011 at 1:50 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


Namdrol said:
"To cognize" means to have a mental recognition.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Uhhhhhhh....yeaahhhhhh --but....what...exactly...does...that....mean...?
Conceptual recognition? Spontaneous  reaction?
Can you provide a hypothetical example of one?


Malcolm wrote:
It means you must have a sense organ, an object and a consciousness meeting together.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


Namdrol said:
There is also the issue of the sixth Dalai Lama and the Seventh Dalai Lama living at the same time. The sixth was not killed. He was banned to Amdo. His autobiography has appeared. The present HHDL has indicated that he feels a strongest affinity to the second, fifth, sixth, and thirteenth Dalai Lamas, who all have strong connections with the Nyingma practice.

N

mudra said:
So that autobiography has finally been published? Who published it? I heard about the manuscript several years ago from my lama, who said that apparently after quite some time in what is today inner Mongolia (his Mongol 'executioners' released him after they were a good distance from Lhasa) the 6th returned to central Tibet, and that the 6th and 7th actually saw and recognized each other at least once in Lhasa, but Rinpoche was not sure if they actually talked.

Malcolm wrote:
http://www.wickhamsmith.net/sixthdalai/sixthdalai.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 11:25 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
If not, then can one really experience any cessation of thought?
And if so, then does that experience fall under the definition of 'cognition'?'

Malcolm wrote:
"To cognize" means to have a mental recognition. That can only occur based on characteristics.

One cannot experience a cessation. By definition, cessation is a suspended mind. This is undesirable from a Mahāyāna pov.

"Realizing" emptiness means the mind becomes free from the proliferation of the four extremes [is, isn't, both, neither]. That is not a cognitive event since it [the mind] has now become free from all apprehended characteristics. At this point, the mind has been transcended.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: New statue
Content:
davcuts said:
Can anyone get a statue made of themselves?


Malcolm wrote:
Yup. Just takes $$$.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
5heaps said:
is a thing that cannot be cognized? what would you say you are supposed to do with it then?

Namdrol said:
Emptiness cannot be cognized directly. It has no characteristics, no shape, color, form, duration, etc.

5heaps said:
only hinayanists have a problem with saying that negatives cant be cognized explicitly..but even they would say it can be cognized directly, where directly is taken to mean free of conceptuality ie. without conceptual consciousness, needing to rely on a mental image. do you understand what i mean by explicit vs implicit?

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot cognize that which lacks characteristics. It's impossible.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 8:33 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


heart said:
I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society.

/magnus


Namdrol said:
Hi Magnus:

Actually, the Fifth Dalai Lama notes in his own autobiography that his recognition was faked. What people do with this information is something else altogether.

heart said:
The recognition being faked don't exactly mean that 5th is saying that he isn't the correct tulku of the Dalai Lama. Or does he say "I'm not the Dalai Lama"?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
You should read Karmey's article.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 9:37 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Serenity is not listening to any of your well intentioned advice and has shown that he has no intention of listening to reason.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 9:35 AM
Title: Re: impermanence
Content:
Namdrol said:
When it ceases to appear, we assign an end to it, nominally saying "this that existed no longer exists".

5heaps said:
but the assignment of having ended has to accord with reality... with how the thing in fact ended up being unable to appear.
how is it that things end up like that?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it merely has to accord with how it appears to us.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: Bon in Toronto?
Content:
caveman said:
Are there any Bonpo Lamas or temples in Toronto?


Malcolm wrote:
May this lama goes to toronto:

http://www.sherabchammaling.com/biography.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
5heaps said:
a long time before we see emptiness directly in meditation s

Namdrol said:
You will never see emptiness in meditation directly for emptiness is a not a thing that can be seen.

5heaps said:
is a thing that cannot be cognized? what would you say you are supposed to do with it then?


Malcolm wrote:
Emptiness cannot be cognized directly. It has no characteristics, no shape, color, form, duration, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
5heaps said:
a long time before we see emptiness directly in meditation s

Malcolm wrote:
You will never see emptiness in meditation directly for emptiness is a not a thing that can be seen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: impermanence
Content:


adinatha said:
His question was about things.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, I was answering him.

When a thing appears, we label it "a given thing" and we assign a beginning to it. When it ceases to appear, we assign an end to it, nominally saying "this that existed no longer exists".

Of course, in reality, this idea, if taken literally results in views of existence and non-existence.

Impermanence then is understanding that nothing that appears to us can remain the way it is.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: impermanence
Content:
5heaps said:
Does it imply that things end simultaneous with the last moment?

adinatha said:
Yes.


Malcolm wrote:
Conventionally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 3:55 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen in NYC
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
http://tsegyalgar.org/localcenters/kundrolling/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this should work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 1:42 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
conebeckham said:
Luipa does have the Four Great Yogas, which are completion stage practices, I think.

Tsong Khapa commented on them, I believe, as well.

I don't know if they're an existing lineage though.  Seems the Gelukpas practice Ghantapa's Completion stage, mainly....I don't know about the Sakya practice, though I think it's based on Luipa's?
Kamtsang Kagyu practice is based on Luipa and Krishnacharya, though it's a unique transmission stemming from Marpa and subsequent masters.


Malcolm wrote:
The Sakya school has three separate transmissions of Cakrasamvara, and three separate traditions of Vajrayogini.

All of the Cakrasamvara transmissions come through Naropa. They are Luyipa, Ghantapada and Krishnacarya. Of these, the Luyipa and Krishnacarya traditions are more widely practiced. And of these two, the Krishnacarya tradition is the most popular. It also has the largest number of commentaries.

The Ghantapada tradition is more emphasized in the Gelug school, this tradition nevertheless comes from Sakya.

As far as the completion stage practice of Luyipa goes, Luyipa did not write a completion stage text. There are only five or six texts attributed to him in the Tengyur. This does not mean he did not have completion stage instructions -- it just means he did write them down. Luyipa's disciple was Darikpa, and Darikpa's disciple was Ghantapada.

You are correct, Tsongkhapa did write a commentary on completion stage of this system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
In 1970, American TV producer Jerry Thorpe saw the unique entertainment potential that the teachings of the Buddha, (especially as interpreted by the Chinese Shaolin school) could have if carefully scripted into the plots of a weekly show about cowboys, but featuring a wandering monk who was a master of the martial art known as Kung Fu. the show bore that name, was a hit, and actually drew millions of Americans to begin to seriously study the dharma.


Malcolm wrote:
Was definitely my first exposure to Dharma.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 1:02 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Serenity509 said:
Something I appreciate about the Urantia Book is its view of God as both the loving parent of the Bible and the all embracing Oversoul of Eastern philosophy, both being different aspects of the same being. Furthermore, like Hinduism, the Urantia Book teaches there is an indwelling fragment of God in each person, and that the purpose of life is to attain unity with this fragment. The Urantia Book also compares the indwelling Buddha nature to the fragment of God within.


Malcolm wrote:
An idea explicitly rejected in many Buddhists sutras.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 20th, 2011 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


heart said:
I see you share this ideas with the Western Shugden Society.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
Hi Magnus:

Actually, the Fifth Dalai Lama notes in his own autobiography that his recognition was faked. What people do with this information is something else altogether.

However, there is actually no real reason to presume that a line of tulkus is the reincarnation of the same person. Case in point -- Trungpa Rinpoche told some friends of mine that he was not in fact the reincarnation of previous Trungpa, but was in fact that reincarnation of the previous Trungpa's attendant. Now, I have no idea if he was f%^ing with my friends or not, but they were long time students of his, and one had been his "sku sung", his personal attendant for some time, and this is what they told me.

There is also the issue of the sixth Dalai Lama and the Seventh Dalai Lama living at the same time. The sixth was not killed. He was banned to Amdo. His autobiography has appeared. The present HHDL has indicated that he feels a strongest affinity to the second, fifth, sixth, and thirteenth Dalai Lamas, who all have strong connections with the Nyingma practice.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


Namdrol said:
It is all in the thun instruction book.

N

Pema Rigdzin said:
Yeah, that's one of the books I'm waiting on. I seriously think I'll order from the SSI in Europe from now on. SSI USA still hasn't gotten my order in the mail, even after telling me they would a second time on the 14th, and they don't ever respond to emails. So it's been a total of 17 days since I placed my order. If there were another SSI USA branch, I would go through them and never deal with the one in Massachusetts again, seriously. This is ridiculous.

Malcolm wrote:
Unfortunately, you cannot order from Europe, they will just send you to USA. I have alerted the board of SSI to your complaint, it is just one among many, unfortunately. So, please exercise patience and understand that they are severely understaffed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Democracy in excile
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,

Regarding Tibetans and their "new form of democracy" in excile, there arose also the question by me how does that function ?

- Is it true that the rulership of the Gelug is now official ended?

Malcolm wrote:
That ended in 1959.



kalden yungdrung said:
- Who is the new "Boss" of all the Tibetan traditions?

Malcolm wrote:
No one was ever the boss of all traditions.


kalden yungdrung said:
- Is the Kashag renewed, e.g. "democratic"?

Malcolm wrote:
Kashag is now democratic. But so what -- they are a government in exile. Only for Tibetans in exile, not for Tibetan Buddhists nor for Tibetans in Tibet and China. The have no real power. 

That answers all the rest of your questions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 9:37 AM
Title: Re: Mantra Recitation Out-loud or Silently?
Content:
The Ticking Man said:
Thank you for the feedback.  I appreciate it.


Malcolm wrote:
Generally speaking, in Dzogchen Community deity mantras like Simhamukha, etc are done quietly, under the breath, not out loud.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
samdrup said:
Hey Namdrol,

So even though he never taught Dzogchen, do sources confirm he did practice it? Is there any other texts that directly mention Tsongkhapa's view on Dzogchen? If so what are his comments?

Malcolm wrote:
No, he never practiced Dzogchen. His views on Dzogchen tended to follow the standard Sarma discomfort with Dzogchen, and he refuted some Dzogchen ideas that he felt were too close to so called "Hashang" view.

samdrup said:
Does Atisha speak much about Dzogchen? Comments?

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: Theravadans That Believe in the Bardo
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Yes, indeed i could read a lot of books more about this topic, but my free time is sometimes limited.
Easier would be, if you could give the short (cut) / answer to my done question, if possible of course.
Your answer / reply is here not so clear to me whereas you made a statement of the Indian Bardo which i also know that it would be a part of the 6 Yogas of Naropa or of his karma mudra / sister / partner, the Yogini Niguma, and they are members of the Indian Mahamudra Tradition.


Best wishes
KY[/color]

Malcolm wrote:
right, so if you read a book on the six yogas of naropa, it will be discussed there and you will clearly see how different it is from bardo teachings in Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 5:28 AM
Title: Re: Theravadans That Believe in the Bardo
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
But how is Bardo here experienced? Is the root or source here related to Indian Dzogchen or Indian Mahamudra?
We know all that Mahamudra is very near to Dzogchen, but the lights (Todgal) or the Lamps are missing here.
So i guess that the Bardo States here, are explained according the Indian Dzogchen Tradition.......

KY[/color]

Malcolm wrote:
You can read any number of books about it, actually.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
conebeckham said:
Namdrol-

You said Ghantapada's was the first known Completion Stage commentary for Chakrasamvara....but didn't Luipa write on the completion stage as well?  My understanding was that Luipa was the first or earliest of the Chakrasamvara Siddhas.  Some say he "discovered" the tantra itself?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but that does not mean he wrote down completion stage instructions. AFAIK, he just composed a sadhana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 3:04 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Caz said:
I find this part interesting it has previously been suggested that the reincarnation lineage of the Dalai lama was tampered with.
So if exactly he was a great terton who was he a reincarnation of because this certainly suggests that it wasnt the previous 4th ?

Namdrol said:
I mentioned before, Trisrong Detsen, etc.

Caz said:
Interesting so I wonder what happend to the actual 4th Dalai lama ? If the 5th was actually a reincarnation of Trisrong Detsen and not actually avaloketishvara then this would seem to explain a but from a histroical POV. Cheers for clearing that up Namdrol.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, the Fifth also claimed to be the incarnation of Songtsen Gampo as well as being the emanation of Avalokiteshvara. The idea that the Dalai Lamas are emanations of Avalokiteshvara begins with him.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 2:44 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Enochian said:
Ok how can someone learn about him?

Namdrol, do you have any good Internet or book sources?


Malcolm wrote:
There is a book by templeman that has his biography.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so appealing to educated Caucasians?
Content:
Luke said:
My point is that you study at a university and most universities are run by leftist elites, so one has to kiss up to them and their viewpoints in order to succeed there.

Malcolm wrote:
Boy, are you out of it. In general the academic establishment has not been "left" since the 80's, apart from a few parts of the US like Berkley. Harvard has shifted totally to the right [i.e. to the money $$$}, so has Colombia, Princeton, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 2:37 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Enochian said:
There is very little info on Krishnacarya on the internet

1.  Who was he?

Malcolm wrote:
An important Mahāsiddha who is well attested to.


Enochian said:
2.  Did he really exist?

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely.

Enochian said:
3.  What are the top 3 teachings of his commentorial tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
I mentioned a couple of them -- he figures large in the Yamari lineages as well.

Enochian said:
4.  Why does he have a name of a Hindu god in his name?

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

he doesn't. Krishna means "dark" i.e. the black-skinned acarya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Namdrol said:
It is in the commentaries by Sachen on the Krishnacarya corpus that we find the clearest indication of the process of attaining rainbow about according to the Cakrasamvara system in the Sakya school.

adinatha said:
Would it be tummo, illusory body yoga and chulen?


Malcolm wrote:
Tummo is a part of the process. Illusory body is a father tantra thing. Chulen does not figure large in Sachen's commentaries but the Indian texts are chalk full of dietary and herbal recommendations for supporting the completion stage all of which would make a vegan cringe.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
Caz said:
I find this part interesting it has previously been suggested that the reincarnation lineage of the Dalai lama was tampered with.
So if exactly he was a great terton who was he a reincarnation of because this certainly suggests that it wasnt the previous 4th ?

Malcolm wrote:
I mentioned before, Trisrong Detsen, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
- What did the 5th Dalai Lama as a Terton discovered?

Many cycles including Dorje Drollo, Tara, etc. Many of them are included in the Rinchen Terzö.
- What was his previous reincarnation in those days when he did hide teachings?
Trisong Detsen.
- In how far is it trustable all the informations of the 5th Dalai Lama?

Malcolm wrote:
Completely trustworthy. He was not responsible for war with the King of Tsang, Karma Tenkyong Wangpo. The history of Central Tibet from 1621-1642 is roughly the history of warring Mongol factions, one side backing the Kagyus, the other side backing the Gelugpas, fighting over central Tibet. All of this happened while the Fifth was a child and a young man. He was born in 1617. He had very little to do with the suppression of the Kagyu school. This was done in his name by the regent Sonam Chophel. It was not until Chophel died 1658 that the Fifth began to exercise any real power on his own.

Samten Karmey has an interesting article here:

http://www.iias.nl/nl/39/IIAS_NL39_1213.pdf " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 19th, 2011 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: Theravadans That Believe in the Bardo
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Please tell me more about Indian Vajrayana outside the Tibetan Dorje Thekpa.

Malcolm wrote:
For example, we have the bardo teachings connected with the six yogas of Naropa and so on. You can look there -- we have firm Indian sources for these.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 11:42 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen teaching of Tsongkhapa
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,


- Are those Dzogchen teachings authentic?
- What Dzogchen teachings did he teached?

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapa never taught Dzogchen. The incident in question is when he was visiting a Nyingma master who had a vision of Vajrapani, and in that during that time, Tsongkhapa asked whether Dzogchen was authentic and Vajrapani replied that it was.

kalden yungdrung said:
- The 5th Dalai Lama was also fond of Dzogchen, he knew what was good ! Is he therefore a Dzogchen Rigdzin?

Malcolm wrote:
The Great Fifth was an important terton. He wrote a detailed manual on Dzogchen practice as well.



kalden yungdrung said:
Yes the mainpoint here is that if one doen't belong to an unbroken Dzogchen lineage as follower then the Dzogchen teachings are not 100% and i understood that Gelug or Kadampa was the lineage here with Dorje Chang as the head and not Kuntu Zangpo.

Malcolm wrote:
There is really no different between Samantabhadra and Vajradhara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 11:39 PM
Title: Re: Theravadans That Believe in the Bardo
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,

So the Bardo teachings seem to be of Tibetan origen because i never heard something of that written in Pali or Sanskrit.

Malcolm wrote:
There are bardo teachings in Indian Vajrayāna. They do not come from Tibet. 

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so appealing to educated Caucasians?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Now, Buddhism is going gangbusters in S America, so that is not an issue there.

Daniel Arraes said:
In most cases among South american upper middle class, who are mostly "white" (not pure caucasians, but fair-skinned mestizos).


Malcolm wrote:
So you are saying Buddhism is just an elitist fad? I could have told you that.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 10:26 PM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Enochian said:
Only later did this tantra come to be interpreted through creative commentary as being about tummo.

From what I can tell, tummo as practiced today has no textual justification save for a couplet from the Hevajra tantra.

Not that it matters, since these things were taught by omniscient Mahasiddhas.

Malcolm wrote:
As I mentioned, the tummo in the new tantra schools for the most part depend on Krishnacarya's instruction. However, tummo also shows up in the Sahajasiddhi of Dombhi Heruka.

It seems that indeed Tummo was adapted to Cakrasamvara from the Hevajra system, perhaps because the Samputa tantra is a common commentary to both. The Tummo instructions which are given a verse in Hevajra are elaborated in the Samputa tantra in a section called the Vasantatilaka (which is also a meter in Sanskrit poetics),"the ornament of spring" which may be found in the sixth kalpa of the Samputa (the Samputa is divided into ten kalpas, each having four sub-sections, for a total of roughly forty chapters).

The earliest completion stage manual we have on Cakrasamvara is Ghantapada's five stages (not to be confused with Nagarjuna's five stages connected with Guhyasamaja). Caṇḍalī yoga (gtum mo) is distinctly absent from that text. However, in the outer five deity sadhana written by Chogyal Phagpa, the completion stage given for that sadhana is directly based on subsection two of the sixth section of the Samputa. Perhaps it is because this tradition comes from Mardo Lotawa who also translated Krishancarya's Vasantatilaka.

The completion stage manuals of Krishnacarya all center around the concept of the Vasantatilaka, and one of them is explicitly named as such. Krishnacarya writes that vasanta, spring, means "when the wind ceases, after the breath of the right and the left goes into the nostrils".  This Vasantatilaka was also translated by Mardo.

As a testament to the enduring popularity of the Vasantatilaka system, Vanaratna, the last Indian Mahasidda to visit Tibet (15th century) wrote a commentary on Krishnacarya's text some 40 folios in length which is also preserved in the Tengyur.

It is in the commentaries by Sachen on the Krishnacarya corpus that we find the clearest indication of the process of attaining rainbow about according to the Cakrasamvara system in the Sakya school.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 8:31 PM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Serenity509 said:
Hinduism regarded the Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu.

Malcolm wrote:
Not in particularly flattering way -- according their account, Buddha was Visnu's avatar sent to deceive the Asuras.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 8:27 PM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so appealing to educated Caucasians?
Content:


Luke said:
Have you ever actually taught Dharma in a non-white area?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't actually teach that much. However, if someone invited me, I would go.

Luke said:
No, I'm just trying to illustrate an important issue in modern Buddhism.  I think not caring about teaching Buddhism to other races and ethnic groups shows a lack of compassion.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, as far as that goes, as I said before, it is a matter of karma. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot force them to drink.

In terms of traditional black and latino communities, what is it that Buddhism is going to bring them that Christianity does not already supply?

Now, Buddhism is going gangbusters in S America, so that is not an issue there. There is very little Buddhism in Africa, however.

But in the long run, it is based on interest. If people are interested, than Buddhism will spread. If there is no interest, than not. So education is the key.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 7:57 PM
Title: Re: Bon and the karmic problems of Tibet
Content:
Tenzin1 said:
Radiocarbon date results for Zhang Zhung say the culture existed at least as early as 1000 BCE, per recent studies by Belleza.

Malcolm wrote:
Pots are not people.

For example, would we expect to find Celts today living along the Danube?


Tenzin1 said:
In any case, this may be why some say that Bon didn't exist before the 11th Century.  It depends on how one defines Bon.


Malcolm wrote:
What they mean is that we do not have a single Bon text which can be dated earlier that the 11th century.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 7:52 PM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so appealing to educated Caucasians?
Content:


Namdrol said:
2.  What can be done to make Buddhism more popular with other races of people and with less-educated people?
Educate them.

Luke said:
Now that sounds like a good answer on the surface, but I think it may hide some rather racist assumptions...

Malcolm wrote:
In general, in order for people to become interested in Buddhism, first they need to educated about Buddhism. Nothing racist about that.

Luke said:
You have your own sangha, don't you?  Do you feel any need to reach out to other races and ethnic groups?   Would you ever give a dharma talk in a tough, but diverse area like Lawrence or Lowell, Massachusetts?

Malcolm wrote:
I am not an evangelist. But I would teach Dharma wherever there was interest.

Luke said:
I think that part of the problem may simply be that white Buddhist teachers are simply unwilling to step out of their comfort zones to try to speak to new audiences; it's far easier for them to keep worshipping the Asians and to keep lecturing to the whites.

Malcolm wrote:
We're full of piss and vinegar today, aren't we?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 7:35 PM
Title: Re: Dhewa Dhakini
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
If you think that this is a problem you should check out some of Namkhai Norbus transliterations!

Malcolm wrote:
His are based on a kind of Pinyin.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 11:24 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
adinatha said:
The only thing that matters here is that Sunyata and DO are the same thing.

Lazy_eye said:
If that's the case, though, why not just call it paticcasamuppada and leave it at that? Why use another term for it?

Malcolm wrote:
Dependent origination is correct relative truth; by understanding that, one is lead to correct understanding of ultimate truth, emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 9:41 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Enochian said:
You feel it in the classical chakras like throat, heart etc.


Malcolm wrote:
where there are a lot nerves...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 8:40 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:


Namdrol said:
The principle unique development in Buddhist Indo-Tibetan Yoga seems to be Dzogchen.
N


Enochian said:
There was actually a recognition school of Trika shaivism.  Surprisingly there is zero information about it on the internet.  But in Gavin Flood's book "The Tantric Body", he talks about it.  They even had a mirror analogy like Dzogchen.

But the Muslims destroyed this tradition along with Vajrayana (in India).


Namdrol said:
There are some similarities with Trika, but they are quite superficial. However, there was a lot of interaction between Kashmir and Tibet, and before Katmandhu became the major place for Tibetans to go, Kashmir was the place in the late tenth century.

Malcolm wrote:
To add a bit -- we just don't know a lot. All we have is the texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 8:38 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:


Namdrol said:
The principle unique development in Buddhist Indo-Tibetan Yoga seems to be Dzogchen.
N


Enochian said:
There was actually a recognition school of Trika shaivism.  Surprisingly there is zero information about it on the internet.  But in Gavin Flood's book "The Tantric Body", he talks about it.  They even had a mirror analogy like Dzogchen.

But the Muslims destroyed this tradition along with Vajrayana (in India).


Malcolm wrote:
There are some similarities with Trika, but they are quite superficial. However, there was a lot of interaction between Kashmir and Tibet, and before Katmandhu became the major place for Tibetans to go, Kashmir was the place in the late tenth century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 8:37 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Namdrol said:
The principle unique development in Buddhist Indo-Tibetan Yoga seems to be Dzogchen. If we ignore traditional accounts, text critically speaking the yogas we know about from Dzogchen all seem to date after 950 CE., developed in Tibet and never existed in India, apart from proto-thogal of the type we find in the Kalacakra "empty forms" [shunyatā bimba] practice.

adinatha said:
Well that can't be if Dzogchen learned about channels and chakras from Hindu Indians.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, there are traces of post-Indian adaptation nadi theory in the Vima Nyinthig material. For example, in one Vima nyinthig text in a passage describing the central channel, it uses the term avadhūti, but in another passage directly related, it describes a different channel as the kun 'dar ma. The problem with this is that kun 'dar ma is the Tibetan translation of avadhūti.

The point I was making was that Buddhist Yogis in India adapted Hindu yogic terms to Buddhism. Then, in Tibet, Nyingma Yogis adapted newer tantric materials [i.e. mother tantra] being brought into Tibet after 950 and used this material as the basis for reformulating their yogic traditions, including Dzogchen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
adinatha said:
Well, that and the Yoga Sutras, where other common terms were. Then, it would seem these do not show up in buddhist literature until later too.

Malcolm wrote:
What it basically looks like is that Buddhists first appropriated the external Vedic rituals after the Gupta period [lower tantras up to Yoga tantra]. Then, slowly, Buddhists began to adopt the language of the Pan-Indian yogic tradition as well.

The principle unique development in Buddhist Indo-Tibetan Yoga seems to be Dzogchen. If we ignore traditional accounts, text critically speaking the yogas we know about from Dzogchen all seem to date after 950 CE., developed in Tibet and never existed in India, apart from proto-thogal of the type we find in the Kalacakra "empty forms" [shunyatā bimba] practice.

The yogas underpinning the mahāmudra movement and tantras and their terminology as we know have non-Buddhsit origins and are heavily informed by Ayurveda, etc.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
Please stop pretending that I have no idea what I am talking about. I might not have a degree in Buddhist studies, but I know a thing or two. .

Malcolm wrote:
You don't really know what you are talking about. Though you get points for persistence.

You don't have any idea about the intricate intellectual history of things like the three kāyas in Mahāyāna Buddhism. You don't understand emptiness. You don't understand dependent origination. You don't understand Yogachara. You don't understand Theravada. In short, if you want to learn about Buddhism, you have a lot to learn. Good luck.

Thanks,

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 5:51 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:


adinatha said:
Clearly the early Ati masters knew about channels and chakras.

Malcolm wrote:
It depends on what you mean by "early".


adinatha said:
They were aware of the bindu in the heart, the central and side channels, the crown, throat and heart chakras at the very least? Thogal practices are dependent on this knowledge, no?

Malcolm wrote:
These seem to make their first appearance with tantras such as Hevajra and Dakarnava, etc. Mid 9th century or so.



adinatha said:
But you are saying it's hard to know when these truly appeared, because they don't appear until Chetsun Wangchuk 10th Cen, and there are uncanny similarities between practices in Nyingthig tradition and Kalachakra which arrives also around 10th Cen and thrived in a nearby or same region as Nyingthig?

Malcolm wrote:
The seventeen tantras do talk about the three channels, four cakras, and so on. But as we known, Chetsun was mid 11th -- early 12th century. As I mentioned to you, he met with Zhangton Tashi Dorje in 1123 and passed away (i.e. rainbowed) shortly thereafter.

Cakras and so on do not figure much into Guhyasamaja practice at all. So while Guhyasamaja practice entered Tibet very early, during the eighth century, its completion stage practices were not well developed until ninth century in India (i.e. the Pañcakrama,etc.).

Three channels and four cakras is, in Indian Buddhist tantra, apparently a mother tantra sort of thing. Seems to show up first in Hevajra (Cakrasamvara root tantra is arguably older than the Hevajra), then in other Cakrasamvara commentary tantras and so on.

Kalacakra arrives in Tibet in 1027 CE i.e. early 11th century. 1027 is the first year of the sixty year cycle of the Tibetan calendar. One of the reasons dates before this time are so sketchy is that well, 1027 CE is the first totally reliable date we have in Tibetan history and everything is calculated from that date. Tibetans themselves are quite unclear about dates, and for many dates in the Imperial period we have had to rely on external documents from Chinese records to date events in Tibet History. Western scholars too did not invent this system. This approach to fixing Tibetan dates by using Chinese annals is also used in the Blue Annals by the 15th century Kagyu historian Go Lotsawa Zhonnu Pal. A good book about early Tibetan history is The Tibetan Empire in Central Asia by Beckwith.

But limitation of the text critical approach is that you cannot measure the age of an idea, only the age of the first text in which an idea appears. As we know, the ideas of channels and so on is much older in Hindu literature. For example, the Candogya Upanishad discusses nadis including a nadi than seems to resemble the central channel.

http://www.ashtangayoga.info/philosophy/upanishads/chadogya-upanishad/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are many ideas in the Buddhist tantras that make their first textual appearance in the pre-Buddhist Upanishads.

But in terms of when these ideas first appear in Buddhist texts, they seem to appear extremely late in Buddhist history.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 4:50 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
It must be time to the change the subject to "Dog in Buddhism".

PadmaVonSamba said:
If there was no god, then dog spelled backwards would have no meaning.

Malcolm wrote:
Are you quite sure it isn't the other way around?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 4:34 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It must be time to the change the subject to "Dog in Buddhism".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Serenity, have you ever had beef jerky?
Beef jerky is made by taking strips of steak, salting them or soaking them in brine
and then hanging them up in the sun to dry.
Every Sunday, millions of Catholics around the world take the Eucharist,
where they believe they are eating the body of Christ.
Christ was also hung up out in the hot sun.
So, can you please explain to me what is the difference between Jesus and beef jerky?


Malcolm wrote:
Romans?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Tenzin1 said:
Women were believed to have transformational spiritual power, as well as generative power, so mixing sexual fluids and then consuming them was one way men believed they could gain this power for their own purposes.


Malcolm wrote:
Certainly, but this does not really encompass the meaning of this tradition. The meaning of this tradition is attaining buddhahood.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 3:53 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
Amida Buddha is Nirvana personified. How is this drastically different from a personal God, aside from the fact that Amida is not a Creator God?

PadmaVonSamba said:
What does "a personal God" mean?


Malcolm wrote:
It means a god who is a person i.e. Jesus, Krishna, etc. i.e. a god who acts though a persona, unlike for example Brahmin.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 3:28 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Namdrol said:
That is not a Mahāyāna idea. That is also present in the karana hetu/adipati pratyaya principle of the Sarvastivadins i.e. all phenomena are the cause and condition of all phenomena but themselves.

Lazy_eye said:
It looks like we posted at around the same time. So the Sarvastivadins did play a role here, then? Would Nagarjuna have been opposing them, agreeing with them, partially opposing them, or using them as a framework for his own thinking?

Malcolm wrote:
Nagarjuna would have agreed with Sarstivadans conventionally, but would have rejected their notions ultimately.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 3:16 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
Lazy_eye said:
Mahayanists sometimes get accused of misinterpreting paticcasamuppada (dependent origination).

PMTF said:
Hello Lazy Eye

What specifically is the basis for Mahayanists sometimes get accused of misinterpreting paticcasamuppada (dependent origination)?


Lazy_eye said:
The complaints seem to center around the idea that Mahayana turns paticcasamuppada into some kind of cosmic principle -- interconnectedness of all phenomena, etc. Kumbayah!


Malcolm wrote:
That is not a Mahāyāna idea. That is also present in the karana hetu/adipati pratyaya principle of the Sarvastivadins i.e. all phenomena are the cause and condition of all phenomena but themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 2:46 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
Amida Buddha is Nirvana personified. How is this drastically different from a personal God, aside from the fact that Amida is not a Creator God?

Malcolm wrote:
Seems to me you should study Buddhism with a real Buddhist teacher.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Serenity509 said:
I am not the first person to have interpreted Eastern philosophy in light of the Urantia Book.


Malcolm wrote:
Who cares? It has nothing to with the Dharma. In fact, very little that you have written about here has the slightest thing to do with Buddhism at all. Instead, it seems you are intent in broadcasting new age and theistic ideas that really do not have anything in common with what Buddhists understand Buddhism to be about. As such, I question why you bother us with this nonsense.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 12:40 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
That's sort of like saying since all binary code is made of 1's and 0's, and since the concept 'zero' (as having numeric value) was an Arabic concept, that the internet is half Arabic.

Malcolm wrote:
The zero was invented in India, actually.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 18th, 2011 at 12:05 AM
Title: Re: Karmamudra-the reality, the myth
Content:
Astus said:
An interesting case of karmamudra:

...


Malcolm wrote:
Chapman, in general, does not know what he is talking about. Please, out of respect for Tibetan Buddhism, let us cease discussing this issue once and for all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 11:46 PM
Title: Re: Karmamudra-the reality, the myth
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Many posts seem to be bleeding over into this subject with a lot of people totally freaking out about it. So I thought why doesn't someone who actually knows about this subject lay out what Karmamudra is and isn't? The process, practice, and purpose of it. Of course I am not asking anyone to break samaya or anything but perhaps if people actually understood it better there would be less dissension, freaking out, slander, etc etc


Malcolm wrote:
Those of us who actually know this practice, understand it, and can explain it cannot because we have samaya. And in any event, it does not help because it merely makes the emotionally immature more hysterical.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 11:09 PM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
alpha said:
Why is only men discussing karmamudra ?


Namdrol said:
Because women are prajñā by nature.

gnegirl said:
i was gunna say its because guys forget the brain above their necks at times.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not a particularly male fault, actually. Anyone with genitals can suffer from this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
There is pretty clear indications that Amitabha literature and modes of conceiving and writing Amitabha's pure land are very influenced by Persian culture.

Astus said:
The most important parts are the vow and the buddha-land as a safe place for liberation because these are the essentials for attaining enlightenment in that way. Other details make little or no difference at all. And the Pure Land school with focus on recitation and the 18th vow is quite an East Asian thing.


Malcolm wrote:
Walled garden forts are pretty safe places.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Astus said:
It is a bit funny that God can be seen in the Shin school of Buddhism. What I mean is that Shinshu is a very, if not the most simplified form of Buddhism where the primary goal is to attain birth through faith. Now, this whole God concept is a load of misguided interpretation that has nothing to do with attaining birth in the Pure Land of Amita Buddha. Since it has nothing to do with it there is no point in assuming any relevance to Jodo Shinshu. The Pure Land sutras don't talk about any God, neither do the seven patriarchs. What basis is there of this abstract conceptual proliferation within the Pure Land context? Nothing.


Malcolm wrote:
There is pretty clear indications that Amitabha literature and modes of conceiving and writing Amitabha's pure land are very influenced by Persian culture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
adinatha said:
It is not through creative commentary, but the oral tradition that accompanies the dissemination of a tantra

Malcolm wrote:
I would argue it is both.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
username said:
Chakrasambhava, always interesting and probably the most discussed tantra in terms of origin. Even the Hindu scholars come into this picture regularly. And the ever flexible Nyingmas...

Malcolm wrote:
Not vague at all. Some Nyingmapas were quite hostile to the new spread of tantras.

username said:
Plus, almost all was deeply hidden within inner chambers back then, unlike last few centuries.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think so -- otherwise there would be no reason for Lha Lama Yeshe Od to complian about corrupt tantric practices, and his nephew would have had no reason to write Atisha explaining that while mother tantra was excellent, maybe Atisha should not bring it to Tibet, etc. This suggests a much higher profile than "hidden in back chambers" indicates.


username said:
David Gray's book ( http://www.kamakotimandali.com/blog/index.php?p=643&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) is basically his PhD thesis: http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/rich_text_1.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
alpha said:
Why is only men discussing karmamudra ?


Malcolm wrote:
Because women are prajñā by nature.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Might it be the case that no emphasis is given to these teachings by these traditions since it would be taken for granted that a Buddhist accepts and applies the 4NT?  And why do you say that the $NT are a purely renunciative practice?  Due to the wording?  Coz it seems to me that right effort, for example, is not purely renunciative and anyway when one "renounces" wrong doing essentially what one is doing is accepting virtuous/wholesome actions.

Malcolm wrote:
The 4NT are actually a diagnostic heuristic. All traditions have this. All traditions start with suffering, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Adamantine said:
So what's the source of Tummo in Nyingma then?


Malcolm wrote:
That is an interesting question. We actually have complaints by Nyingma authors from the tenth century expressing concern about new-fangeled, new-age clap trap yoga practices using cakras, and so on, borrowed from Hindus and being imported from India. It suggests that tummo was adapted from the mother tantras when they came to Tibet.

However, it is very hard to be certain because Tummo and so on are mentioned in various Nyingma tantras which are hard to date.

Interestingly, Guru Chowang has a terma of the six yogas of Naropa which is in the Rinchen Terzö.

The opinion of several western scholars is that Nyingmapas borrowed many practices from the mother tantras, such as body mandalas and so on forth after the 11th century. Or for another example, the notion of the twenty four pithas is entirely based on the Cakrasamvara/Hevajra tradition. While it is possible that this idea was introduced to Tibet with Padmasambava (these two tantras were certainly extant in India during the eighth century), or later in the ninth century or tenth century (because we have Cakrasamvara completion stage documents at Tunhuang that may date to the mid tenth-century) we don't really see this idea expressed, so far as I know, in the the classical set of Nyingma tantras. However, the caveat is that the 40 or so volumes of Nyingma tantras have been largely unexplored.

N

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Enochian said:
Only later did this tantra come to be interpreted through creative commentary as being about tummo.

From what I can tell, tummo as practiced today has no textual justification save for a couplet from the Hevajra tantra.

Not that it matters, since these things were taught by omniscient Mahasiddhas.


Malcolm wrote:
well, this is not exactly true -- for example, in Yoga Tantra they practice an "inner fire puja" and the chapter on the fire puja in Cakrasamvara is understood to indicate tummo practice.

The common source of tummo in Kagyu, Sakya and Gelug is the tummo instruction from Krishnacarya. This is the origin of tummo in the six yogas of Naropa, and is preserved as an Independent instruction in Lamdre.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 9:24 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


kirtu said:
I'd go so far as to say that Mahayana doesn't have to include the 4NT's at all and that historically it was relegated to the Southern School for the most part.  Now with Buddhism developing into a kind of pan-Buddhism it is often referred to in teachings in many places.  But is is superseded for the most part in the common and uncommon Mahayana.

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
4NT are covered in detail in Avatamska, the Bodhisattva Pitika, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 7:08 AM
Title: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This is what Indian scholars say about the identity of the teacher who taught the Cakrasamvara Tantras, according to extensive history of Cakrasamvara written by the great Sakya Polymath and 28th throne holder of Sakya, Ngawang Kunga Sonam (1597-1659/1660, http://tbrc.org/link?RID=P7900 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

He writes: "Bhavabhata and Bhavyakirit both hold that "This teacher (i.e. Śakyamuni) having attained buddhahood in the beginningless past taught the Cakrasamvara tantras, but later, after becoming the son of Śuddodana, did not teach it. Their reasoning holds that since Cakrasamvara is continually practiced by the heros and yoginis of the twenty four countries, even when eon forms and perished (the twenty four countries) do not form and perish so [the Cakrasamvara] does not disappear. Even though other dharmas may have also been taught in the beginning, since they are destroyed by the formation and perishing of the eon, since they disappear during the interval, they must be taught again by Śākyamuni.

The commentary on the root tantra by Indrabhuti II gives a citation:

"Having tamed the maras, which shows the manner of awakening, 
having seen the strength of the activity of the Sugatas,
in the place called Mt. Dhanyakata
the source of the dharma that exhausts passion,
in the mandala circle the hero well taught 
the great secret to a countless assembly
eight hundred million yoginis and more…" etc.

Guided by this, first, the Cakrasamvara tantra is taught without interruption in the Akaniṣṭa, the location of the buddhas (as opposed to the god realm Akaniṣṭa); in middle, having emanated on the peak of Sumeru, and later, having manifested the twelve deeds in Jambudvipa after turning the three wheels of Dhrma, for the benefit of fortunate disiples the Bhagavan entered into the samadhi of Śrī Cakarasamvara on the mountain of Śrī Dhanyakataka, emanated the mandala circle and taught the Cakrasamvara tantras to eight hundred million yoginis. Having also demonstrated the method of taming Rudra-Bhairava with his retinue, he [Indrabhuti II] holds that once again it was recited and taught by Śākyamuni

The Ḍākārṇava Tantra (one of the commentary tantras of Cakrasamvara) states:
In the kali yuga this will
be taught by countless bhagavans. 
The tantra taught by Śākyasimha 
carry one to the other shore of yoga.

The Commentary on the Ḍākārṇava tantra [by Padmavajra] states, "Again, in the kali yuga, three million, six hundred thousand major tantras were taught by Śākyasimha."

Therefore, after having first been explained by the heruka of the cause, the sambhogakāya, it explained that it was repeated again and taught.

The commentary by Master Vajra states, "During the Dvāparayuga, Rudra Maheśvara was tamed. Though it [the root tantra] was taught at that time, here, the one to tame, Iśvara also arose at the beginning of the Kaliyuga. After they were tamed by Heruka with his retinue, the tantra was taught as it was stated in the Ḍākārṇava tantra.

Now the reason for teaching [the root tantra] in the Kaliyuga is stated in The Vajrapātāla Tantra:

Time is divided into four ages
the tantra division is divided into four sections.

The four tantra divisions are taught intending disciples of the four ages. Also the reason the anuttarayoga is taught in Kaliyuga is that the disciples of that age are very afflicted, it is intended for those with coarse three poisons to take the path or root of awakening, as it is stated in the Herukābhyudaya Tantra:

Having been cared for by Śrī Heruka,
there will be success in the degenerate age.

Therefore, in terms of the [perfect] time, when it was time to tame Rudra with his retinue in Jambudvipa, inside the mandala emanated in Mt. Meru, Bhagavan along with his retinue were arranged in the mandala wheel. According the explanatory tantras, after Śrī Vajrapani offered a ganacakra, since he requested that the root tantra be explained, in the perfect place, the peak of Mt. Meru, the nature of the teacher's body, speech and mind, the result Heruka, Cakrasamvara, placed the tamed retinue, Rudra Bhairava with retinue into the mandala. And he taught the perfect Dhama the trio of extensive, medium and concise root tantras of Cakrasamvara to the deities of the five wheels, and moreover, the buddhas and bodhisattvas equal with the atoms in Mt. Meru, the fortune gods and humans, the retinue, the petitioner and the collator, Vārāhī, and so.

However, Vajrapani's [i.e. the tenth stage bodhisattva] Commentary on the Upper Section explains the petitioner for that mandala demonstrated above was Vajravārāhi and also she was the teacher of the Cakrasamvara tantras. Vajrapani's Commentary on the Upper Section states:
In this time of the five degenerations,
in order to attain the result of merit and wisdom,
Vārāhi made a supplication, and the one with the vajra 
clarified this concise tantra.

And the Herukābhyudaya Tantra states:
After that, after all the heros stood
the hero Vajrapani and so on,
and made a request to the lady of the mandala.

Having called on the mother to intercede, it is explained that she was requested to teach the tantra.

Though it may be so that someone explains she taught the Vārāhī tantra, and Vajradhara is the petitioner,  Buton Rinpoche explains there is no contradiction because of the vision of the individual person to be tamed.

Therefore, Bhavyakirti and so on’s explanation that this tantra was not repeated again by our teacher (Śakyamuni) as it was shown above and the citation from The Ḍākārṇava Tantra i.e. “In the kali yuga this will be taught by countless bhagavans” may seem to be in conflict but in reality they are not in conflict. The former positions intends that this teacher (Śakyamuni) did not again recite and teach the tantra after having performed the twelve deeds in Jambudvipa. The latter citation intends a time in the Kali Yuga prior to performing the twelve deeds. When it is explained that the tantra was taught after [Sakyamuni] performed the twelve deeds, though Śakyamuni himself taught many tantras of secret mantra to the uncommon disciples and the some like Guhyasamaja were by taught by other emanations of the powerful Muni, the Tattvasaṃgraha and the Cakrasamvara tantras were not taught at that time as it is explained by Loppon Sonam Tsemo, “Other than his general activities, he did not recite or teach later on. Having taught the Tattvasamgraha in the beginning, after completing that tantra he arrived in human lands....” and so on.

Likewise, "...he performed the deeds of arriving in Jambudvipa, etc., but he did not recite or teach the Śrī Cakrasamvara Tantra later on” is the position of master Bhavyakirti. Since his commentary on the root tantra starting from “The category of Dharma has a continuity of beginningless time, taught by the Bhagavan Śakyamuni in the past....” to the end of that citation “...like it is explained”, the position of Bhavyakirti is made our position. Having summarized the meaning of those, also the The Clear Ornament of The Three Modes states “...not including the Tattvasamgraha and Cakrasamvara”.
So there you have it, according to the Sakya school, the Cakrasamvara Tantra (and the Tattvasamgraha) was not taught this time around by Śakyamuni Buddha.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Zhang Zhung Namgyal
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Taoism has in her philosophy regarding emptiness very near similarities with the Dzogchen aspect Trekchod or the Longde aspect e.g. the emptiness

Malcolm wrote:
Absolutely false.


kalden yungdrung said:
Taoism has also similarities with their Pa Kua regarding the Bon Ba Gua.

Malcolm wrote:
The so called spar kha are the Bagua. These are common to the Tibetan astrological system called ""byung rtsi". They ultimately come from Chinese culture.

kalden yungdrung said:
So the emanation from the dualistic principles out of the Wu Chi (emptiness) is nearly equal to the Dzogchen view of the Base or gZhi.

Malcolm wrote:
Not even remotely similar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 12:36 AM
Title: Re: Sunyata and dependent origination
Content:
mudra said:
IMHO Nagarjuna deals with this in the most succinct, to the point manner in the Mulamadhyamakakarika/Foundation of the Middle Way.


Malcolm wrote:
Even more succinctly here:


What are the twelve different limbs
the Muni taught as dependent origination? 

Those are exhaustively included in three,
defilement, action and suffering.
The first, eighth and ninth are defilement;
the second and tenth are action; 
also the remaining seven are suffering;
twelve dharmas are gathered into three. 

Two are produced from three;
seven are produced from two;
three are produced from seven;
that is the wheel of existence,
it is turned again and again, 
all living beings are causes and results.

There are no sentient beings at all, 
empty dharmas are entirely  produced 
from dharmas strictly empty, 
dharmas without a self and [not] of a self.

Words, butter lamps, mirrors, seals,
fire crystals, seeds, sourness and echoes.
Although the aggregates are serially joined,
the wise are to comprehend nothing has migrated. 

Someone, having conceived of annihilation,
even in extremely subtle existents,
he is not wise,
and will never see the meaning ‘arisen from conditions’.

Here, nothing at all is to be removed, 
nor is anything to be added;
having truly seen reality, 
when reality is perceived, liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 17th, 2011 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
Sönam said:
Therefore, all teachings that bring to the only identity Buddha is told by Buddha ...

Sönam


Malcolm wrote:
Right. But some people really have a need to make sure that Buddha's name is "Shakyamuni".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 10:52 PM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
Namdrol said:
For example, Vasubandhu points out if something is well spoken, is virtuous and does not conflict with dependent origination, it can be accepted as Buddhavacana, the word of Buddha.

pueraeternus said:
Brings to mind something Jan Nattier mentioned in a clip. Initially the earliest inscriptions proclaim that "Whatever the Buddha said is well-spoken.", but overtime it became "Whatever is well-spoken, was said by the Buddha".


Malcolm wrote:
I would like to modify that again:

"Whatever is well-spoken, was said by a Buddha."

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


Sonam Wangchug said:
What of people at the time of Shakyamuni receiving the teaching, in a visionary manner, Sambhogakaya dimension from Shakyamuni?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this supposedly happened in the case of Indrabhuti the first, the account which I gave above. Buddha manifested the mandala of Guhyasamaja. This is also held to the case in Kalacakra, where Buddha manifested the mandala in Dhanyakata Stupa in South India at the same time he was supposedly teaching the perfection of wisdom sutras at Rajagriha.

Sonam Wangchug said:
Also what of the view that the Tantras were taught in secret so they were concealed for some time even though they were taught at the time of Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
That is also classical view not only of Vajrayāna but of Mahayāna. Mahāyāna monks explained that Mahāyāna sutras were held by Nāgās for safe keeping until they could be distributed. There are many mystical ideas about text production. In short, the so called "treasure" tradition really begins with Mahāyāna sutras, not with Padmasambhava, many centuries later.



Sonam Wangchug said:
In either case whether People agree Buddha Shakyamuni taught them, can't Validity be established in terms of Guru rinpoche teaching the mantrayana?

Tulku urgyen rinpoche said for the 1000 buddha's there will be 1000 guru rinpoche's ... I wonder if then the guru rinpoche's will primarily teach secret mantra and the buddha's teach sutric, and if Maitreya will not be teaching Tantra, will the guru rinpoche be teaching it in other realms for example..

Malcolm wrote:
I read in interesting opinion this morning that holds that when the Guhyasamaja claims that only Sakyamuni Buddha will teach tantra, this is more about the greatness of Guhyasamaja. A counter citation is produced from the Mayajala tantra which states that secret mantra will be "Taught by the past buddhas, taught by the future buddhas, taught by the present buddhas, taught again and again..."

I am writing a post on the origins of the Cakrasamvara found in India sources. I will put it up later. I was wrong in asserting that no India masters claim that Sakyamuni taught Cakrasamvara. Some do.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


Namdrol said:
For example, Vasubandhu points out if something is well spoken, is virtuous and does not conflict with dependent origination, it can be accepted as Buddhavacana, the word of Buddha.

N

Sönam said:
This is to be related to an other thread where a post states that "if it does not contradict the 4 NT it is a teaching of Buddha" ... or ?

Sönam

Malcolm wrote:
Sure...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 7:45 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
Oh hey, Namdrol. Would you mind PMing me a few words on the mantra of the five elements, such as how many times it's supposed to be recited in a session and if there's anything special I should be considering or visualizing while reciting it? I would be so appreciative. I know you're busy though, so if you don't have time, I understand.

Nangwa said:
I dont know if Namdrol got back to you on this or not but the Short Tun book is a good one for this kind of question. Even though it takes a long time to get a copy.

Pema Rigdzin said:
Nah, haven't heard back from him. I'm sure he'll respond eventually if he notices and has a free moment. Otherwise I'll just have to exercise some patience til the books get here. The instructions of the short tun is one of the books I ordered.

Malcolm wrote:
It is all in the thun instruction book.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 7:44 PM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
"There is a common misconception among many non-Buddhists (and even among certain Buddhists) that the Tantras are late and corrupt additions to the Buddha's Teachings. This is false. The Tantras are genuine teachings of the Lord Buddha, and they occupy a paramount position withtin the overall flamework of Buddhist doctrine. "


Malcolm wrote:
There are many ways to claim a teaching of the Buddha's, and not all of them require that Buddha actually spoke the teaching in question.

For example, Vasubandhu points out if something is well spoken, is virtuous and does not conflict with dependent origination, it can be accepted as Buddhavacana, the word of Buddha.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 7:41 PM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


Adamantine said:
Why would  a Buddha need to receive teachings from a Buddha?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, this happens a lot. In Guhyasamaja, for example.

There are all kinds of literary devices the authors of the tantras use to communicate things.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 7:39 PM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


adinatha said:
I talked to my teacher about this. He explained Chakrasamvara was taught by Buddha Shakyamuni in that Pitha in Pakistan to bodhisattvas.

Malcolm wrote:
Ok, the nirmanakāya that teaches Cakrasamvara is Shri Heruka. Not a sambhogakāya, but a nirmanakāya.


adinatha said:
Bodhisattvas see Shakyamuni in Sambogakaya form. Only "Buddha to Buddha" can see Dharmakaya Buddha Vajradhara. Tilopa went to this place where the teaching is kept to this day by dakinis. Tilopa was Buddha level so he could see pure nature of mind, time and space had no limitation, and received the teaching directly from Dharmakaya Buddha Vajradhara, who is Shakyamuni.

Malcolm wrote:
TIlopa received the Cakrasamvara empowerments from a siddha named Kuśalana. He certainly also received the transmission directly, just as Naropa received the transmission for Vajrayogini directly from Vajrayogini, etc. Why do we know this? Beause Sakya has detailed lineage lists and histories of the masters of Cakrasamvara.

And with all due respect to your teacher, Vajradhara is a sambhogakāya embodiment of the dharmakāya. The dharmakāya is called Samantabhadra, as I mentioned now several times, in Yoga tantra as well as Guhyasamaja.

And Shakyamuni is an emanation of Vajradhara, as is Garab Dorje, etc. All nirmanakāyas are emanations of the Sambhogakāya. Likewise, Shri Heruka is a nirmanakāya emanation of the Sambhogakāya.

In short, you are merely reciting an opinion usually found in Kagyu and Gelug than in Nyingma and Sakya. In Nyingma for example, they hold that Shakyamuni never taught tantra above kriya tantra, and that it was Padmasambhava who spread the tantras in Jambudvipa.

There are conflicting accounts of the genesis of the Hevajra tantra.

So it is better to leave these histories (often mutually conflicting) at the level of legend and not presume they refer to historical facts.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
My point is that it seems the standard position of tibetan masters is that he did.. therefore to those who said he did if you are saying he did not you are denying their omniscience?

Malcolm wrote:
Never met an omniscient master yet. Omniscience is overrated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 10:17 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
Sonam Wangchug said:
You are saying The historical buddha did not teach them, at that time out of his mouth.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. And there is no valid reason to presume that he did apart from someone's opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


Sonam Wangchug said:
If HH, and undoubtedly many others guru's say your position is wrong, how can you continue?

Malcolm wrote:
You really have not paid attention to what I actually have said, have you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
Namdrol said:
I never said Buddha authored a single text. Authorship is not the issue.
Yes, actually, it is what we have been discussing.

adinatha said:
No. Authorship is writing. The Buddha never held a writing instrument, at least that's the tradition. He only spoke. Writing would have come later.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, I wasn't going to point this out to you -- but Mahāyāna sutras self referentially (in the Buddha's own words) refer to themselves being written down, copied, etc.



adinatha said:
For example, supposedly the Buddha gave the Guhyasamaja initiation to the first Indrabhuti. He wrote the text down and taught it to everyone in his kingdom who achieved liberation. Then Oddiyāna basically disappeared. Then, sometime later, since a lake developed there, many nāgās were born in that lake. And eventually they moved to the shore and founded a city. At the same time, Vajrapani, who was safe guarding the tantra, taught it to these nāga people. Then a  south Indian King, Visukalpa had a dream -- he travelled to Oddiyāna, who there met an old lady, who have him the initiation, and from this point then supposedly Vajrayāna started to spread in India starting in South India.
Sounds crazy. You don't honestly believe that shit do you? Crazy Indians and their magical thinking. I'm telling you, there's another reason why this is the story. Indians are basically no bullshit people. There is a secret symbolic meaning to all this that applies to the method of the tantra.

Malcolm wrote:
It is meant to be taken as history, at least that is how Tibetans take it.


adinatha said:
This applies to all Indian mythology.

Malcolm wrote:
You know, you just sunk your own argument.


adinatha said:
You have to talk to a learned Brahmin to know these things. In the case of the tantras, perhaps some of these lineages are broken.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this lineage is still quite alive and well.

adinatha said:
For example, in Mahabharata or Ramayana, the characters and battles related to channels and chakras. And names relate to mantras.

Malcolm wrote:
In the tantric period of Indian history, post Gupta, everything that could be made tantric was made tantric.

adinatha said:
According to Nyingma, a bunch of texts fell on a guys house -- he did not understand them, and took them to Kukuripa who sorted them out understood them, practiced them etc.

In other words, these are all legends. As for Cakrasamvara, it is as I said. Someone in Kagyu may have decided to adapt some other story -- but there is nothing in the Cakrasamvara literature itself to indicate that Sakyamuni had anything to do with it. Instead, Shri Heruka is regarded as a separate Nirmanakāya in the twenty four lands who is presently still active to this very day.
You have to take into account the oral heritage that accompanies the text. If you try to sort out dharma from texts, you will be lost forever.

Malcolm wrote:
That is exactly the point, you must sort out the Dharma from the non-essentials. If you do not, you will lost down a rabbit hole of fundamentalist literalism.



adinatha said:
You can say whatever you want, and no one can do anything about it. For me, the question is not whether it makes sense, but whether the account plays into a method of ultimate realization. In the case of Kagyu there is like a fractal picture of reality.

Malcolm wrote:
This has nothing to do with some Unique Kagyu spin on things.

adinatha said:
Self-similar wheels within wheels, and mandalas within mandalas. By connecting to the teacher...

Malcolm wrote:
Irrelevant to the point we are discussing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 7:10 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


adinatha said:
You are being selective about how you apply Occam's Razor, and that selectivity masks a bias.

Malcolm wrote:
Merely point out to you that there are other ways to see the shortest path.


adinatha said:
Approximations can be made.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think we are pinpointing a publication date here.

adinatha said:
Well, the Buddha could have taught this stuff to someone, right?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not found in the Bhaisajya vastu, which is a large collection in Vinaya which records Buddha's medical treatment of monks. There is a definite record of Buddha practicing some pranayāma techniques we find even today in Yantra Yoga in the Majjihma Nikāya.



adinatha said:
I never said Buddha authored a single text. Authorship is not the issue.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually, it is what we have been discussing.




adinatha said:
It amounts to the same thing.

Malcolm wrote:
In the hands of some western scholars, sure. As far as I am concerned, I am just calling it the way I see it.




adinatha said:
A lot of people like to play the association game here. It's quite Jungian, nay... Freudian, perhaps Gestaltian.

Malcolm wrote:
Just telling you how you sound. It is up to you what to do with it.

adinatha said:
There's nothing like good old standard falsifiability: the ultimate Occam's Razor. If one cannot formulate a test of the falsifiability of one's theory, it's just metaphysical. This is quite liberating, because so much is just metaphysical.

Malcolm wrote:
I agree -- it is also liberating when one does not have to explain away all the hermeneutical difficulties of explaining how one guy in 460-407 +- BCE explained a whole bunch of teachings, 3/4's of which (and millions of words) were then concealed in some other dimension only to be revealed mystically some hundreds of years later.

For example, supposedly the Buddha gave the Guhyasamaja initiation to the first Indrabhuti. He wrote the text down and taught it to everyone in his kingdom who achieved liberation. Then Oddiyāna basically disappeared. Then, sometime later, since a lake developed there, many nāgās were born in that lake. And eventually they moved to the shore and founded a city. At the same time, Vajrapani, who was safe guarding the tantra, taught it to these nāga people. Then a  south Indian King, Visukalpa had a dream -- he travelled to Oddiyāna, who there met an old lady, who have him the initiation, and from this point then supposedly Vajrayāna started to spread in India starting in South India.

According to Nyingma, a bunch of texts fell on a guys house -- he did not understand them, and took them to Kukuripa who sorted them out understood them, practiced them etc.

In other words, these are all legends. As for Cakrasamvara, it is as I said. Someone in Kagyu may have decided to adapt some other story -- but there is nothing in the Cakrasamvara literature itself to indicate that Sakyamuni had anything to do with it. Instead, Shri Heruka is regarded as a separate Nirmanakāya in the twenty four lands who is presently still active to this very day.

And as someone who was trained in Sakya, I prefer the Sakya account -- a) Sambhogakāya is the author and source of all Vajrayāna teachings, when it says thus have I head, it means it was spoken by the Sambhogakāya and heard by Vajrapani, not by Ananda. B) "The single vajra word is heard differently by those of different capacity". This means a) we do not need to be worried about whether Sakyamuni had anything to with the tantras, or Mahāyāna, since Manjushri is the one who heard Mahayāna, according to this understanding b) it allows for the evolution of dharma according to the needs of people and their capacity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
Namdrol said:
For example, the Hevajra Tantra mentions Vaibhashika, Sautrantika, Yogachara and Madhyamaka. One might suppose that in Buddha's omniscience he predicted these schools; or occams razor style, one might just understand that the Hevajra tantra was composed after the catursiddhanta system was finalized sometime in the mid sixth century with Madhyamaka at the top.

adinatha said:
So you apply Occam's Razor to whether the Buddha was omniscient? The obvious application of Occam's Razor here would be omniscience is impossible. So...

Malcolm wrote:
No, the obvious application is that the Hevajra tantra was written after the four siddhanta system came into being. There were no Vaibhashikas during the time of the Buddha because the Mahavibhasa had not been written and would not be written for 500 years.

I do not think that it impugns Shakyamuni Buddha's omniscience to imagine that he did not speak every text attributed to him whether directly or indirectly.



adinatha said:
I made no assumptions about which sutras and tantras are reliable. Also your dating of texts is based on assumptions. Dating of texts is notoriously impossible.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, here is a big difference, for you it seems "reliable" means "taught by a known historical Buddha with a name".

As for dating of texts, it is not nearly as hard as you think. Dating people is harder than dating texts, actually.


adinatha said:
You know what they say about those who assume? It's not like the notions of vayus and bindus, etc., was unknown generally by the yogi world in the 10th Century. It seems that this knowledge MAY have been well developed even in the Buddha's time.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually the ten vāyus are all mentioned by name in the pre-Buddhist Candogya Upanishad. The first Buddhist text they appear in is the Buddhist Ayurvedic treatise Asthanga Hridaya Samhita.


adinatha said:
the Buddha talked about mind-made body and upanishads, etc., talk about bindu and vayu. The Buddha's tantras just apply this knowledge to freedom from extremes liberation.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed. I still don't think this is sufficient to attribute authorship of 9th century CE texts, or even 100 BCE Mahāyāna texts to the Buddha.


Namdrol said:
I could care less who it was supposedly taught by.
That's your opinion. But authenticity does play a role in a consideration of reliability.

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, this is just a political game Tibetans play with each other. The Indian Mahasiddhas did not give a shit about all this crap.


Namdrol said:
Authorship is who wrote it down. Who knows who finally wrote down an oral transmission or saw a vision of a transmission? By the time someone writes it down it's passed through several ears and mouths anyway. The question is did the Buddha Shakyamuni transform his body and speak words about dakinis and sex for someone to hear. That is strictly a faith question, and no evidence will ever come out to say otherwise.

Malcolm wrote:
You sound like a Christian defending creationism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 6:04 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
adinatha said:
This still holds true for Dzogchen vis Garab Dorje and the masters who have attained the Body of Light.

Malcolm wrote:
In reality, the most important lineage in Nyingma is the very, very, very short lineage:

My three kāya guru, me.

Don't need all that historical bullshit. That is for people who lack confidence.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 5:53 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


adinatha said:
That might be your interpretation re yanas. That view is not shared by Kagyu. I mentioned Garab Dorje in my passage is the Nirmanakaya who brought Dzogchen here. You skimmed. According to the Chakrasamvara Shakyamuni is transformed into Heruka to subjugate Mahadeva and Kalaratri. It is his connection that makes the tantra a possible continuum.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this not so and not one single Indian commentary maintains this (out of thirteen commentaries on the root tantra alone). This is just later Tibetans freaked out the heterodox nature of the tantras, trying to whitewash all of this to fit their preconceived notions. Moreover, Cakrasamvara does not even begin with evam māyam srutam.

And then what about the tantras that begin "This at one time did I teach..." like guhyasamaja which are all set in Akanistha Gandavyhua.


adinatha said:
Also Hevajra explicitly begins, "thus I heard," indicating Shakayamuni will speak according to the tradition of nidana

Malcolm wrote:
This does not prove that Shakyamuni Buddha taught the text. But hey, your faith is yours. You keep it. If you want to be snowed by literary conventions -- that is your business.

There are suttas in the Pali Canon that explicitly date from after Buddha's parinirvana that begin with evam māyam srutam. There is one such text in the Majjihma Nikāya. Not every text that begins with evam maya srutam issued from the mouth of Sakyamuni -- for example, all of the Dzogchen tantras -- not a single one was ever taught by our pal Gotama Buddha.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 5:42 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


adinatha said:
To the contrary, it IS the standard for truth. I'm not saying it is true Gautama taught tantras. I'm saying there is no fact either way. So how can you conclude one way?

Namdrol said:
It is an inference based partly on the appearance of sutras in translation into Chinese, the noted evolution of these sutras in Chinese translation, comparisons with their late and in many cases final forms in Tibetan translation; the clear evolution of Indian tantras in Sanskrit, and in Tibetan translation, differing versions of the same text between new and older recensions, etc. The gradual evolution of tantra, uttaratantras, etc. The evolution of commentaries on these tantras, when they first appear, etc., intertextuality with non-buddhist tantras, and so on. The mutual rise of Buddhist and non-Buddhsit tantra, etc.

There are very many excellent reasons to assume that both Mahāyāna literature and Vajrayāna primary literature evolved in a manner that is simply absent in Nikāya/Agama sources. There is no evidence whatever to suggest that any Mahāyāna texts ever were communicated through an oral lineage like the Nikāya/Agamas. Even the so called gatha portion of these texts it turns out are generally _later_ in composition than the prose portions they summarize.

adinatha said:
This assumes that what was found is all there is to find, that what was written encompasses what was said, or that what was written was written at the time it was said.

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all, it merely assumes that we have what we have, and we can examine what we have, study what we have, and limit our knowledge to what real evidence we do have.

It does not presume "new" tantras cannot be written (they can and are).

But there are obvious flaws in your view, not present in the view of those who regard Mahāyāna abd Vajrayāna texts as results of (inspired) literary production -- one, your view cannot explain the definite use of literary artifice and style in Mahāyāna sutras, cannot explain the codification and stylization completely absent in the NIkayas/Agamas; cannot explain the explict addressing of sectarian points by Mahāyāna sutras to Abhidharma concepts which are definitely found only in texts that post date the Buddha by many centuries.

For example, the Hevajra Tantra mentions Vaibhashika, Sautrantika, Yogachara and Madhyamaka. One might suppose that in Buddha's omniscience he predicted these schools; or occams razor style, one might just understand that the Hevajra tantra was composed after the catursiddhanta system was finalized sometime in the mid sixth century with Madhyamaka at the top. Even further, there is no evidence that categories such as "kriya, carya, and Yoga" tantra existed prior to the ninth century, since such categories are completely absence in tantric taxonomical commentaries written in the eighth century, and only really appear with Vajramālā tantr (the main commentary tantra on the Guhysamaja) which was not composed prior to the beginning of the ninth century based on its own appearance in Tibetan translation as well as its commentary. And we have a lot of information about the primitive i.e. pre-Vajramālā Guhyasamaja tradition.

For me it does not matter at all whether it was "revealed" or composed. It is a very interesting text that introduces most of doctrine we have about the ten vāyus, the notion of "bindu" and so on forth. My personal assumption is that it was composed by a yogi/yogis.

I could care less who it was supposedly taught by.

One of the things that shows a shift about tantric mis en scene among Indians is the relocation of the scene of the teachings from Nirmanakāya locations that we find in lower tantras up to Yoga tantra to Sambhogakāya dimensions like the "bhaga of the mother" and so on in Hevajra and other tantras, or Akanishtha Gandavyuha in Guhygarbha, etc. (which is very influential on Tibetan composition Dzogchen tantra mis en scene).

I have translated a lot of Indian Tantric Material and Nyingma tantric material. There stark stylistic differences between tantras composed in India and tantras composed in Tibet. Most Nyingma(but not all) tantras were definitely composed in Tibet by Tibetans.

So again, I restate my POV. Authorship does not matter. This is a worry for fundamentalists, not scholars, and not yogis.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
adinatha said:
That unbroken lineage must go back to the Nirmanakaya, Shakyamuni, because he was the first to bring dharma here since the time of the last Nirmanakaya.

Malcolm wrote:
This is Hinayāna perspective, it is not even Mahāyāna, definitely not Vajrayāna (for example, according to the Cakrasamvara cycle of tantras, there are Nirmanakāyas teaching this tantra in the 24 pithas even today which accounts for the power of this cycle. It is the only mandala that was never withdrawn, and there is no suggestion in any history of the practice that it ever was taught by Shakyamuni, unlike Kalacakra and Guhyasamaja, for example).

Further, Sakyamuni never breathed a word of Dzogchen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
LastLegend said:
I am not questioning the validity of Tantrayana, I am just questioning the understanding of the practitioners on this forum regarding certain components of teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
You are not in a position to question anyone's understanding of Vajrayāna buddhism since you are not a Vajrayāna practitioner.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 16th, 2011 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


adinatha said:
To the contrary, it IS the standard for truth. I'm not saying it is true Gautama taught tantras. I'm saying there is no fact either way. So how can you conclude one way?

Malcolm wrote:
It is an inference based partly on the appearance of sutras in translation into Chinese, the noted evolution of these sutras in Chinese translation, comparisons with their late and in many cases final forms in Tibetan translation; the clear evolution of Indian tantras in Sanskrit, and in Tibetan translation, differing versions of the same text between new and older recensions, etc. The gradual evolution of tantra, uttaratantras, etc. The evolution of commentaries on these tantras, when they first appear, etc., intertextuality with non-buddhist tantras, and so on. The mutual rise of Buddhist and non-Buddhsit tantra, etc.

There are very many excellent reasons to assume that both Mahāyāna literature and Vajrayāna primary literature evolved in a manner that is simply absent in Nikāya/Agama sources. There is no evidence whatever to suggest that any Mahāyāna texts ever were communicated through an oral lineage like the Nikāya/Agamas. Even the so called gatha portion of these texts it turns out are generally _later_ in composition than the prose portions they summarize.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
adinatha said:
The most common fact is that there is no fact supporting anything the whole school of thought relies upon. When that is the case, chop chop.

Malcolm wrote:
Right. Therefore, the idea that Shakyamuni Buddha taught the tantras is best treated as a legend, with no more objective truth value than the Theravadin legend that he taught Abhidhamma in the heavens.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


adinatha said:
Also my belief is that making scholarly opinions about what is authentically taught by the Buddha and not creates problems for people. It can harms someone's faith. That's bad. It's one thing to show someone the truth, even if it hurts. But it's entirely another to present scholarly opinions disguised as facts. I will stomp on that every time, because it's misleading.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you should be stomping down on all four lineages presentation of history of Buddhist tantra since all of them are in conflict, use different indian sources or engage in pure speculation, etc.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Zhang Zhung Namgyal
Content:
Tenzin1 said:
This is fascinating.  It almost sounds taoist:  the Natural State, the Tao.


Malcolm wrote:
It has nothing to do with Taoism. It is an instruction on togal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 8:38 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:


adinatha said:
I'm not saying it proves he taught Mahayana. I'm saying you cannot disprove it. If you cannot disprove it, it's not false.

Malcolm wrote:
This is specious reasoning, as you know.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 8:33 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


Namdrol said:
Actually, it comes from Yoga tantra.

N

adinatha said:
Not all say the same thing.

Malcolm wrote:
Samantabhadra as dharmakāya makes his first appearance in the Sarvatathāgata Tattvasaṃgraha,the root tantras of Yoga Tantra. This is just a fact, there is nothing to argue about. He makes his next appearance as Dharmakāya in the Guhyasamaja. Again, fact, nothing to dispute.

In this I prefer to follow the Sakya school's point of view, i.e., the definitive rūpakāya is Sambhogakāya. And in reality, there is only one teacher, the Dharmakāya Samantabhadra, since dharmakāya is the mind of all buddhas.

Gorampa points out that the relationship of the Sambhogakāya to the nirmanakāya is that of an illusionist to an illusion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 8:26 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:


adinatha said:
Gampopa affirmed he was this bodhisattva disciple. So this would mean that he was present when Gautama taught Mahayana.


Malcolm wrote:
No, it just means that Gampopa decided that this person referred to himself.




adinatha said:
The Mahayana texts we have are just as old as any.

Malcolm wrote:
Some date to around 100 BCE. Not many.

adinatha said:
There is no reason to conclude the Buddha's words were limited to sravakayana, at least not based on real evidence.

Malcolm wrote:
There are actually a lot of reasons to think this is so. The Agamas/Nikayas are, for the most part, clearly based on an oral tradition. The Mahāyāna sutras are all literary compositions.

adinatha said:
Most importantly, that Buddha was omniscient with miracle powers is basically required belief to be a Buddhist.

Malcolm wrote:
The conclusion you are drawing from your premise is erroneous.

The fact that Buddha claimed omniscience for himself in some Pali text does not prove he personally taught even one Mahayāna text.

My approach to this is to toss out authorship as a valid criterion for judging the validity of a given Buddhist text. Instead I look at the text itself, rather than its putative author. In other words, judge the text by what it says, not by who supposedly said it.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 8:09 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


Namdrol said:
I think they both depend on the Sambhogakāya, Vajradhara, and he in turns depends on Samantabhadra.

adinatha said:
That's the Dzogchen mandala.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it comes from Yoga tantra.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
In Austria they will be closed from the 10th of June to the 10th of July and informed on norbunet. I wonder if it's a similar situation.

Why don't you mail them or call the office?

Pema Rigdzin said:
Lol I have been. I emailed them on June 9th and got no word and then there was the weekend, so I waited til the following Monday (yesterday) and called and left them a voicemail but got no reply, so I called back today and got a live person finally lol. So they've been on a retreat since June 1, so they just hadn't gotten around to shipping my order. Well, gotta be happy that they were up to such worthwhile activities, but it would have been nice if they'd have announced that they'd be out of commission for a little while during the retreat or something. Oh well.


Malcolm wrote:
The funny thing is that the retreat was in the same building as the bookstore. And you can bet the bookstore was open during the retreat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:


adinatha said:
The visualizations help to redirect the "winds," you know what I'm saying?

Malcolm wrote:
Not needed from a Nyinthig POV.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 3:44 AM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
Tilopa said:
There's still a huge difference between those who are really qualified to transform desire on the path and those who merely think they are and then engage in ordinary sex while claiming to be practicing karma mudra.

Malcolm wrote:
If they are Vajrayāna practitioners, meaning they have the empowerments, the vow and instructions, then they are qualified. If not, then not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 3:25 AM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
Namdrol said:
Then of course, in Dzogchen Nyinthig, things are a bit looser and not as uptight as in gsar ma presentations of karmamudra practice.

adinatha said:
Really the sarma presentations, originally, weren't uptight either.

Malcolm wrote:
Yogically speaking, pretty uptight, many more visualizations, etc.

adinatha said:
Since when did they stop dropping semen and menstrual blood in the mouth of the initiate? That was tantra.

Malcolm wrote:
Not referring to that.

adinatha said:
The Dzogchen approach is laid back, but doesn't really have the same four-joys practice either, no?

Malcolm wrote:
It does.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:


adinatha said:
See? Disrespect flows from the Western rational attitude, "the guy." Geez. You guys are hopeless. That "guy" taught us liberation. No other "guy" did that.

Malcolm wrote:
He taught the Hinayāna path.



adinatha said:
If you think the "guy" who taught Samantabhadra's realization didn't depend on "the guy" who came before, you are missing a key fact.

Malcolm wrote:
I think they both depend on the Sambhogakāya, Vajradhara, and he in turns depends on Samantabhadra.


adinatha said:
It's in the Abhidharma. Buddhas don't appear in one place at the same time.

Malcolm wrote:
According to Hinayāna. Not according to Mahāyāna, etc.

adinatha said:
All of which was complete to a tee in that sramanera in the forest.

Malcolm wrote:
What he knew and what he actually taught with his own mouth are two  entirely different things.



N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
LastLegend said:
I think the issue here is honesty with onself and about what to expect on the path. It's no secret that sex brings pleasure, and this is what we are attached to.
.

Malcolm wrote:
Vajrayāna is a path of non-renunciation. Never forget that.

Now, if you are into renunciation and so on, cool. But that is not our path. In Vajrayāna we do not renounce sense pleasures, etc. Instead we take them into the path.

So, you practice your path, we will practice ours.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 2:25 AM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
Tilopa said:
So called sexual yoga is not ordinary sex at all but a transformation of sexual energy into extremely powerful states of subtelty and bliss, something which can only be achieved by very advanced practitioners through manipulation and control of the channels, winds and drops.


Malcolm wrote:
This is just propaganda to keep monks monks.

While I agree karmamudra is not ordinary sex in so far as one needs to be somewhat adept at creation and completion stage, not only is there so called "karmamudra" there is also the so called "yoga of passion" which is connected with the creation stage.

Then of course, in Dzogchen Nyinthig, things are a bit looser and not as uptight as in gsar ma presentations of karmamudra practice.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
Tilopa said:
I'm not disputing the validity of consort practice for those who are qualified. I just happen to think most people who claim sex is a traditional/important/necessary/legitimate part of the Vajrayana path are attempting to justify an attachment to ordinary pleasure.


Malcolm wrote:
In order to practice karmamudra you need ordinary desire. Then you need to inflame it, then you need to inflame it more.

People who say that to practice karmamudra you need to be free from desire have no understanding of Vajrayāna at all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
adinatha said:
Dzogchen's use of sensation to introduce dzogchen is not karmamudra.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, actually it is.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
adinatha said:
The written account comes from an oral account, not the other way around. LOL.

Malcolm wrote:
That's what you think.

adinatha said:
I don't think in Buddhism or Indian history generally, there is anything like a "historical fact."

Malcolm wrote:
Then why pretend there is?


adinatha said:
You Westerners are very fond of and proud of your historians, but India did not have a practice of keeping track of details.

Malcolm wrote:
You are a westerner.

adinatha said:
It was always about an inner journey, and therefore a mythological history which corresponded to define signs of the path, channels, chakras, etc.. The Hindu sadhus are masters of this.

Malcolm wrote:
Then why object when I say that things like Buddha teaching the tantras are myths and legends?



adinatha said:
Just like Padmasambhava hid so many teachings and manifested so many things, Shakyamuni did too.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, perhaps the Shakyamuni of someone's vision, but not the guy who died of dysentery around 407 BCE.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:


adinatha said:
I have to disagree with Namdrol. The Buddha was an omniscient being. He talked about all kinds of magical things, like beings from the six realms, like going to see Baka-Brahma, etc., He had this power of co-location. That is part of the Pali.

Malcolm wrote:
On this we agree.



adinatha said:
The Prajnaparamita, some of it, was discovered by Nagarjuna when it was given to him by a Naga.

Malcolm wrote:
Myth, legend, but not historical fact.


adinatha said:
The Buddha had hidden, just like a terma, the prajnaparamita sutras. If you believe in buddhahood, which all buddhists would, then why wouldn't this magical possibility be real? Why couldn't he have taught the tantras in his co-located form, and those were kept hidden until much later?

Malcolm wrote:
He could have, but it is unlikely. In any case, the definitive Buddha is Samantabhadra, not Shakyamuni.



adinatha said:
So that leads me to conclude that the written record is not reliable.

Malcolm wrote:
The why assume that part of the written record is reliable (i.e. traditions around the Nāgārjuna, nāgās, etc.)?

adinatha said:
The oral account has all the contexts to explain why the methods, and culture of dharma evolved the way it did.

Malcolm wrote:
The so called oral accounts you have received are all based on Texts translated by Tibetans. I have researched this area extensively.


adinatha said:
There is a saying in dharma, it is wrong view to hold that only hard facts proven by external sources are true, because you are locking yourself into a subject object dualism and the path is the opposite.

Malcolm wrote:
IMO, the tantras do not depend on any version of the historical record for their validity. My argument is that they are valid because their source is awakened, but I do not need that source to be Shakyamuni -- Virupa, Garab Dorje, Padmsambhava, Sachen, Jigme Lingpa, Namkhai Norbu, Khenpo Jigphun, etc, are good enough for me.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 15th, 2011 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Defining Buddhism - Theravada/Mahayana/Varayana
Content:
Nangwa said:
I am always baffled by Buddhists who limit their access to methods and teachings based upon arbitrary, polemical dating of texts.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 at 8:35 AM
Title: Re: 999 members!
Content:
kirtu said:
Hey - we have 999 members!  Who'll rollover that digit?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
only 49.000 members to go until e-Sangha style collapse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 at 8:27 AM
Title: Re: Sogyal Rinpoche
Content:
fragrant herbs said:
I would like to see proof that Shakyamuni  Buddha taught the Tantras and that he had sex with a consort to become enlightened. I met no one here can prove it.


Malcolm wrote:
There is no proof that the Buddha even taught the suttas, let alone the tantras.

However, we have a text, the Candamaharoshana tantra, and it indeed explains that the Buddha achieved his awakening by taking the farm girl who gave him rice porridge as his consort.

So, my advice to you, since you are a Thervavadin, is that you should not participate in Vajrayāna threads. Period. It is not appropriate.

I will be certain to alert the powers that be when you do.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 at 7:48 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Sherab said:
Say person A is knew person B is looking for a thing Y.  Person A intends to give person B the thing Y and left it in a place X.  Person B went to place X and saw thing Y and took thing Y.  In this instance, is there no offering of thing Y by person A to person B?  Is there no receiving of thing Y by person B from person A?

Namdrol said:
Your example is irrelevant to empowerments and transmissions.

Sherab said:
My post is not meant to be an example but an attempt to strip down the argument to the essentials to see where, if any, the problem of any definition of transmission lies.

Back to my "example":  If it is agreed that there is a giving by A and a receiving by B, then it that a "transmission"?

If you impose the condition that the teacher must be present for the transmission to take place, then what you are essentially saying is that "thing Y" is something that can only be transmitted personally by the teacher.  If so, then what is this "thing Y" that is being "transmitted" in an empowerment?  Certainly not the words of the vajra master during an empowerment because words can be transmitted via a recorder too.  If you say it is to establish a "connection", then reasons should be provided as to why the "connection" cannot be established via a third object like a recorder.


Malcolm wrote:
I have explained this ad nauseaum.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 at 6:19 AM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
adinatha said:
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner karmamudra is not important.

Namdrol said:
It can be.

adinatha said:
Cool. I won't put my tool in cold storage.

Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa has extensive karmamudra instructions that go with the Lama Yang tig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
adinatha said:
If you are a Dzogchen practitioner karmamudra is not important.

Malcolm wrote:
It can be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Mosquitos
Content:
Pero said:
Anyone know of any good ways to repel/prevent them from entering one's room? Other than a net? Here I'm in a kind of swampy area and there's no end to them. Just in the past 30 or so minutes I killed 6. I tried to be careful not to have lights on when the window is open but they still get in somehow. The worst part is not so much if I get bitten but that I can't get much sleep when they're around. Little bastards are just killing me.

Malcolm wrote:
The more you kill, they more they bite you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 at 3:38 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Serenity509 said:
That's somewhat similar to the view that the eternal Buddha became man in Siddhartha Gautama so that we could attain Buddhahood.

Namdrol said:
There is no such view in Buddhism.

N

Serenity509 said:
I've read it from several Buddhist sources. You might disagree with the view but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Malcolm wrote:
You have either misunderstood what you were reading, or you were mislead by someone else who does not understand what they were reading.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 14th, 2011 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Serenity509 said:
That's somewhat similar to the view that the eternal Buddha became man in Siddhartha Gautama so that we could attain Buddhahood.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such view in Buddhism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
Enochian said:
Tenzin1 is a compete moron.

Malcolm wrote:
That's a little harsh.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 10:23 PM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
Tenzin1 said:
Well, I think it's fascinating that tantric techniques...

Malcolm wrote:
Exist only in Indian culture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[quote="padma norbu"]

Thank you for that. That's what I had originally thought, but it seems like every time I turn around on this forum people are disagreeing about something, usually rather adamantly and intensely.../quote]

That's Buddhism for you. Going strong for 2500 years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 9:10 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Sherab said:
If a teacher intends to transmit via a recording and acts on that intention and make the recording, then according to you there can be no transmission despite the intention of the teacher to transmit and the intention of the student to receive, if the student listens to the recording made by the teacher since "the act of speaking and the act of listening happening together at the same time .. constitutes a transmission".

Namdrol said:
Correct. There has never been an instance of an empowerment delivered via a recording. Why is that?

N

Sherab said:
Say person A is knew person B is looking for a thing Y.  Person A intends to give person B the thing Y and left it in a place X.  Person B went to place X and saw thing Y and took thing Y.  In this instance, is there no offering of thing Y by person A to person B?  Is there no receiving of thing Y by person B from person A?

Malcolm wrote:
Your example is irrelevant to empowerments and transmissions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 9:06 PM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Vajrahridaya said:
Also, these beings, like Amitaba were regular human beings like us, who attained Buddhahood, and now work on liberating others, they're are not representations of a source of the entire universe.  They are representations of the source of certain teachings, but it's not the same as Monotheism or Monistic Idealism.
Shin Buddhism entrusts in the “Other Power” of Amida Buddha’s Wisdom and Compassion and does not rely upon our self-centered attempts to attain Enlightenment. The Historic Buddha, Sakyamuni Buddha, is recognized as a human manifestation of Amida Buddha who appeared to share the Nembutsu Dharma or Teachings of the Nembutsu. In Shin Buddhist Temples, Amida Buddha is the Object of Reverence.
http://www.moiliilihongwanji.org/Information_Files/object_of_reverence-amida_buddha.htm " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Serenity509 said:
Shin Buddhism views Amida Buddha as something or someone which can actually bestow wisdom and compassion to the individual. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This would have nothing to do with Abrahamic monotheism.


Malcolm wrote:
Wisdom cannot be bestowed on another. Compassion can.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Sherab said:
If a teacher intends to transmit via a recording and acts on that intention and make the recording, then according to you there can be no transmission despite the intention of the teacher to transmit and the intention of the student to receive, if the student listens to the recording made by the teacher since "the act of speaking and the act of listening happening together at the same time .. constitutes a transmission".

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. There has never been an instance of an empowerment delivered via a recording. Why is that?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 9:35 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Right, I think they are lying. You don't want to know Genden Chopel's opinion of George Roerich.
N

Tenzin1 said:
Well, that's one way to quash a debate-- to refuse to believe the other side's source.  I do know Chopel's opinion of the Roerichs.  That doesn't mean they're lying, it just means they didn't pay him fairly for his translation services. "Fragrant herbs" raises a good point: monks/lamas lie to protect secrets.  Also, more recently when someone went to Hemis monastery asking about the text, they weren't told it didn't exist, they were told the abbott was away in Lhasa and had given strict instructions not to open the library while he was away.

Malcolm wrote:
Excuse me? "Away in Lhasa"? Are you people actually Tibetan Buddhists?




Tenzin1 said:
But we digress.  Here's some interesting info on the tantric front in Judea:

Malcolm wrote:
None of this is "tantric".



Tenzin1 said:
Just for clarification, I'm not implying that tantra in Judea necessarily came from Eastern influences. (Tantra AFAIK didn't exist in India in Jesus' time, but possibly some seeds of tantra had been planted back then, idk.)  I'm only pointing out some interesting parallels between Judeo-Christian practices and Indo-Tibetan.  Egypt surely knew about the Kundalini, as practices to raise the Kundalini for healing purposes go back eons in Africa, and there's some speculation that Jesus went to Alexandria during his youth and young adulthood (the "lost years"), where there was also a Buddhist community.

Malcolm wrote:
New age bullshit.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 5:21 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
fragrant herbs said:
And maybe I am thinking of the wrong Chopel

Malcolm wrote:
No, you have the right one.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
fragrant herbs said:
Well, I know Ganden Chopel's views on children and tantra, and I don't think he is a good source to be bringing up.


Malcolm wrote:
He worked with Roerich directly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 4:58 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
fragrant herbs said:
Well, I know Ganden Chopel's views on children and tantra, and I don't think he is a good source to be bringing up.

Does this also make the swami at the Ramakrishna Order a liar when he said that he went to India and saw the text on Christ?

While the Hemis monastery didn't exist in Christ's time, the texts could have been taken there at a later time, coming from elsewhere.


Malcolm wrote:
You guys are pretty gullible.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 4:46 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:


adinatha said:
So you are an expert in refuting opinions too? That would be an unorthodoxist. Then, it doesn't take any knowledge of others opinions to be a Madhyamakan. You just need the non-affirming negation and a little socratic Q & A to uncover others' assumptions.

Malcolm wrote:
The only reason to learn opinions is to negate them if necessary, or to understand how they are not consistent with dependent origination. If they are consistent with dependent origination, then there is no reason to negate them.

Another reason to learn opinions is to be able to contextualize concepts.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
Tenzin1 said:
I've read that the text in Ladakh was a copy of one in Lhasa, but the supposed original has never been found, so idk.  However, by the time Jesus arrived in India, Pali was heavily Sanskritized and was no longer a spoken language.  Scholars say that North India recorded events in their own dialects, and that would have been true of Kashmir, certainly. Or Sanskrit could have been used. We don't know the language of the original recording of the events of Jesus' live in the East.  I don't see how Pali is relevant to this question.

I've read the denunciations of Notovich, I'm not going to comment on him.  However, if you don't believe that the Roerichs, who are highly reputable, found and translated the text, and published news of their finding in US newspapers, call the Roerich Museum.  You don't have to take my word for it.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, I think they are lying. You don't want to know Genden Chopel's opinion of George Roerich.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 4:28 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:


adinatha said:
WTF? This is the first time I've seen this word. Online dict says, an expert in liturgies and hymns? You must be joking.

Namdrol said:
Doxology is the study of opinions, from the Greek "doxa" as in orthodox.

N

adinatha said:
I am an expert in refuting opinions. That makes me your nemesis.

Malcolm wrote:
If I had an opinion, perhaps. But I don't. As Nāgārjuna says:

"If I had a thesis, I would be at fault; as I alone have no thesis, I alone am without fault."

A little understood point of the difference between an affirming negation and a non-affirming negation is that the former is used to defend one's own position while the later is used to reject an opponents position. Since a Madhyamaka has no opinions, only non-affirming negations are utilized in Madhyamaka.

N

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 4:23 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:


fragrant herbs said:
As for the teachings being much alike, that would have to be another thread, but there is a book titled, The Original Jesus, The Buddhist Sources of Christianity. This has nothing to do with the story of Jesus going to India but that the teachings were already in existence where Jesus lived. The book gives side by side teachings of Jesus and Buddha.

Namdrol said:
The Teachings of Jesus are sourced in Talmud. No need to imput Buddhist origins.

fragrant herbs said:
Some of them are, but most not, or why would Jesus be any different than the Tulmuds?

Malcolm wrote:
Jesus was a rabbi. He was not a Buddhist.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:


fragrant herbs said:
As for the teachings being much alike, that would have to be another thread, but there is a book titled, The Original Jesus, The Buddhist Sources of Christianity. This has nothing to do with the story of Jesus going to India but that the teachings were already in existence where Jesus lived. The book gives side by side teachings of Jesus and Buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
The Teachings of Jesus are sourced in Talmud. No need to imput Buddhist origins.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:
adinatha said:
The Abhidharma and Dzogchen is like this to me. That doesn't mean we can invent all kinds of things. We have to maintain those working definitions that are necessary for the system to work. But we are not wedded to those definitions and assumptions that are not important for the system. Dzogchen cosmology falls into this category for me.

Namdrol said:
The point is that in Buddhism in general, matter comes from mind. Not the other way around.

N

adinatha said:
But doesn't explain where beginningless minds come from. That's the question. Actually, there's no this before that. This before that is just by way of explanation to neophytes. It creates the semblance of order, generates confidence and one enters the path. The path itself, none of this applies.

Malcolm wrote:
The logic of dependent origination forbids beginnings, as you know.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
fragrant herbs said:
namdrol, how do you know that it is false.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, for one there are no translations from Pali in Tibetan.

Two, any such translation could only have been done at earliest in 650 AD. We have no record of such a translation.

Three, there were no Buddhist monasteries in Tibet or Ladakh 2000 years ago.


fragrant herbs said:
it doesn't take away from the fact that the gospels are replete with teachings of buddha.

Malcolm wrote:
No, they are not.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:


padma norbu said:
Yeah. So, why all that stuff about the mind evolving from elements and materialist theoretical science?

Malcolm wrote:
Because mind in Dzogchen comes from vāyu's interaction with the energy of the noetic principle we term vidyā.

One important point I forgot to mention is that consciousness in the scheme of the six dhātus refers to contaminated or impure consciousnesses. The consciousnesses of buddhas and arhats are outside of the six dhatus.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:
adinatha said:
The Abhidharma and Dzogchen is like this to me. That doesn't mean we can invent all kinds of things. We have to maintain those working definitions that are necessary for the system to work. But we are not wedded to those definitions and assumptions that are not important for the system. Dzogchen cosmology falls into this category for me.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that in Buddhism in general, matter comes from mind. Not the other way around.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:
Namdrol said:
[Minds (plural) don't need a material substrate. They are not, from a common Buddhist point of view dependent on matter -- for this reason in Abhidharma through anuttarayoga tantra formless realm beings have no location and are really without material attributes of any kind.

adinatha said:
The formless realms are what a yogi errantly enters; they depend on a yogi. This is going to get me into something we have discussed before, that the material is not what it appears. Physical and mental have no discrete boundaries. The formless realm beings do have attributes of attachment, an attraction to and grasping of the formless realm state and are thus temporal-spatial and impermanent. Space has no location, so all sentient beings fall into the category of no location. Abhidharma says many useful things, but I don't think it is always authoritative.

Malcolm wrote:
It it is not authoritative, but it is foundational. It provides the basic definitions that inform many assumptions that inform all the so called higher yānas. The extent to which people do not actually grasp those definitions and the assumptions which they spawn lead many people to grossly misunderstand things like Dzogchen and Dzogchen cosmology, Madhyamaka, Perfection of Wisdom etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:
Namdrol said:
You need to read Abhidharma, where this is explained very clearly.

adinatha said:
BTW, Abhidharma, for me is not a valid source, because the way it describes atoms is wrong. It says atoms are partless. HH the Dalai Lama has admitted this and says there must be room for buddhism to accept its own limitations and incorporate the findings of hard science. To the extent the Abhidharma sought to show that atoms have no inherent existence it is on the right track. But its error in facts shows that it did not originate in an omniscient mind.


Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, there are assumptions present in Abhidharma texts which are present even in Dzogchen texts, things like the structure of atoms, Sumeru cosmology, etc.

Don't confuse evolving conventional descriptions with a limitation on omniscience.

Abhidharma is extremely important for understanding the context of wide variety of concepts in Buddhism, including, for example the two truths, afflictions, karma etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 1:39 AM
Title: Re: Naropa's Khechari's Intimate Instructions - What are they?
Content:
Karma Sherab said:
Further to what Namdrol said, we have a sort of linguistic issue here. Unlike in Tibet, where there is one translation of the word upadesha as "menga" in English there is not yet an agreed protocol to follow in translation so often familiar words become unfamiliar when used by a different translator.

Even in TIbetan there are so many closely related words. For example Upadesha some times comes out as a rather vague "Oral transmission" which strictly is closer to ka-gyud or "line by mouth", "nyen-gyud" or “whispered line” amongst others.

The problem is (i) humans are imperfect (ii) tend to be imprecise and and moreover like like to do things their own way.


Malcolm wrote:
There are two translations at least for the word upadesha in Tibetan man ngag and gdams ngag.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 1:25 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
Tenzin1 said:
Nicholas Roerich and his son, George, who earned a PhD in Oriental Studies from Harvard and read Sanskrit and Tibetan, went to the monastery in Ladakh in the 1930's, found the "Notovich" text, translated it and sent news of the document and Jesus' activities in India to the US, where the news made headlines across the country.  Copies of those newspaper reports can be seen at the Nicholas Roerich Museum in Manhattan.  The next person to seek the text out a few decades later said it had disappeared or been stolen.

Malcolm wrote:
This is false information. If you want to believe lies and fantasies, I can't stop you.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 1:13 AM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:
adinatha said:
And this is exactly why it can't be true.

Malcolm wrote:
The tree of life thing is just a theosophical crib. The genesis of the elements and their order is a Pan-indian concept, not confined to Buddhism per se.



adinatha said:
The past. There is no origin. The buddha was specific about no origins. If you need a quote search around http://www.accesstoinsight.org " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. To really and truly understand no origins you have to understand the nonarising nature of interdependent relations.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. There is no origin -- cosmic cycles have no origin and no end.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 13th, 2011 at 1:10 AM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:
adinatha said:
It's true, but that is does not mean the universe arose from mind...

Namdrol said:
That is not what I meant. I.e. some sort of Advaita idea.

When we say that matter comes from mind, it is very simple: physical matter arises due to the traces of action and affliction collectively aggregated in all minds every time the container universe forms.

N

adinatha said:
I get that. This explanation doesn't work for me. In the situation of a vacuum, there are no minds. From Abhidharma, mind of retribution belongs to the grasper. There's no substrate field where these retribution minds stay. The Alayavijnana is not like Brahman, not a common field.


Malcolm wrote:
Minds (plural) don't need a material substrate. They are not, from a common Buddhist point of view dependent on matter -- for this reason in Abhidharma through anuttarayoga tantra formless realm beings have no location and are really without material attributes of any kind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Kunga Lhadzom said:
THOSE WHO SEE THIS SCRIPT WILL NOT EXPERINCE THE THREE LOWER REALMS AND WILL BE LIBERATED FROM THE FEAR OF FALLING INTO THE LOWER REALMS;  WILL BE PURIFIED OF THE FIVE POISONS, AND WILL BE FREED FROM THE RESULTS OF ONE'S
KARMA; WILL BE FREED FROM THE FEAR OF REMAINING IN SAMSARA.


THIS IS A "TERMA REVELATION" WRITTEN IN DAKINI SCRIPT BY TERTON MIGYUR DORJE.





( If this is not a transmission....then what exactly is happening as you look at  this Dakini script ??? ) liberation upon seeing.jpg

Malcolm wrote:
This script is a symbolic representation of the buddhas of the six lokas. These seeds syllables enter the eyes of fortunate sentient beings and create a dependent origination for them to be free of the six lokas in the future.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 11:34 PM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:
adinatha said:
It's true, but that is does not mean the universe arose from mind...

Malcolm wrote:
That is not what I meant. I.e. some sort of Advaita idea.

When we say that matter comes from mind, it is very simple: physical matter arises due to the traces of action and affliction collectively aggregated in all minds every time the container universe forms.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 11:20 PM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:
adinatha said:
The scientific explanation and the buddhist understanding mesh well. Consciousness evolves from the elements...

Namdrol said:
Actually, it is the opposite, matter comes from mind...

adinatha said:
Nope.

Malcolm wrote:
You need to read Abhidharma, where this is explained very clearly.

But more importantly the evolution of the six dhātus occurs in the following order: consciousness, space, air, fire, water and earth. Their dissolution happens in reverse order.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 11:17 PM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I have not seen the movie, but I remember our argument on E-Sangha. At best, Gesar is ambivalent about the tulku system -- but when push comes to shove, he believes he is a tulku of an awakened master even though he has no memories of his past life, and so on. So his faith in the tulku system is not really an issue.



Adamantine said:
Perhaps for the sake of Dharma itself he is attempting to assist in the dismantling of the tulku system and the mystique around it, for similar reasons Namdrol is fed up with it/// and this was his intent in the film.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
Is there a spiritual layer to existence that we all can experience or is Nirvana simply nothingness? If you believe that the goal of religion is to attain nothingness, why have a religion at all?

Malcolm wrote:
I could care less about the goals of religion -- the goal of Buddhism is simply to overcome ignorance with knowledge. No spiritual layers necessary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Nangwa said:
It is antithetical to liberation.

Serenity509 said:
Not if you believe liberation to be oneness with the cosmic Self.

Meher Baba and the Evolution of Consciousness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNEkQmxM4d0 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Malcolm wrote:
Meher Baba is not a Buddhist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 6:20 AM
Title: Re: Can we ever really understand consciousness?
Content:
adinatha said:
The scientific explanation and the buddhist understanding mesh well. Consciousness evolves from the elements...

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it is the opposite, matter comes from mind...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
adinatha said:
You won't find buddhists going around telling christians or hindus what to think.

Serenity509 said:
When did I tell you what to think? It's a fact that many Buddhists have turned to the twelve step program for help. "Higher power" or "a power greater than ourselves" can be defined so broadly, even metaphorically, as to include your practice of the Dharma, the compassion of a bodhisattva, or the universe itself. It's not my problem if you can only imagine applying the term "higher power" to Abrahamic faith.


Malcolm wrote:
If they would just practice Dharma, they would not need 12 steps.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
fragrant herbs said:
And yet a swami in the Ramakrishna Order...

l




Malcolm wrote:
Bullshit. There were no Buddhist monasteries in Ladhakh when Jesus was alive.

" That text has been translated from Tibetan at least twice and was published in entirety about 100 years ago by a Russian writer, Nicholas Notovitch, and then again in the 1920’s by Hindu Swami Abhedananda, a direct disciple of Ramakrishna of impeccable reputation."

There is evidence that either of these men knew a single word of Tibetan. This is just new age bullshit fantasy.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 4:18 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Pema Chotse said:
My post re ChNN and Sogyal Lakar appears to have been removed. Is there censorship of "controversial" issues here? If so why? I would be grateful for an explanation.


Malcolm wrote:
look here:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=4408 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 3:29 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
adinatha said:
My friend Rinchen went to the monastery in Ladakh where the alleged evidence of Jesus' visit was kept. But he said there was nothing there. The story of Jesus' visit to India is fiction.


Malcolm wrote:
Wasted trip -- the head of the monastery wrote an letter denouncing notivitch as a fraud as early as 1894.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
A badly put together jigsaw of traditional and pseudo-scientific views blended with 12 step theory which does justice to none of the three.  Hardly evidence of a higher power in Buddhism.

Serenity509 said:
Do you have an objection to Buddhists being in the twelve step program?

Malcolm wrote:
People are free, they can do what they like, including calling all kinds of crazy shit "buddhism".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Namdrol said:
People believe all kinds of crazy shit and call it "buddhism".

N

Serenity509 said:
I don't know if you actually read what I posted. "Higher power" is such a broad term that it can include the Dharma, the Buddha, or anything beyond your egoistic self that you resign to.


Malcolm wrote:
As I was saying...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 3:13 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
There is such a thing is innate wisdom. This is not a higher power, however. I


Serenity509 said:
There are Buddhists who've found their own understanding of a higher power.

Malcolm wrote:
People believe all kinds of crazy shit and call it "buddhism".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Naropa's Khechari's Intimate Instructions - What are they?
Content:
adinatha said:
It probably doesn't, but does this have anything to do with the Kechari Mudra?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.




adinatha said:
, Kechari, translated as "the siddhi of flying in the sky," could be a euphemism for dakini as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Among other things, it is a euphemism for achieving liberation in the bardo.



adinatha said:
So this could just be a method about mahamudra, too. There are also Tilopa's "Bodiless Dakini" instructions that made it into Drukpa Kagyu.

Malcolm wrote:
Naro Khacho is the command seal single disciple for seven generation lineage instructions in Sakya that are Naropa's special Vajrayogini instructions that were never given to anyone but the Phaimthing brothers and then passed down into Sakya having been brought to Tibet by the translator Mal Lotsawa. They are the most essential teachings of the Sakya school. The first master to teach these to more than one disciple was Sachen's son, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 2:24 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Serenity509 said:
In the twelve step program, you are required to find a higher power according to your own understanding. How would a Buddhist recovering from addiction describe his higher power? Believe it or not, there are Buddhists in AA.

The 12-Step Buddhist: Enhance Recovery from Any Addiction
https://www.amazon.com/12-Step-Buddhist-Enhance-Recovery-Addiction/dp/1582702233 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
There is such a thing is innate wisdom. This is not a higher power, however. It refers to the non-conceptual clear and empty nature of the mind of which is permanently free from afflictions and the source of all qualities associated with awakening.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: Did Jesus Have A Consort? Was Tantra A Christian Practice?
Content:
Huseng said:
This is a really weird thread and if it continues I hope participants be reasonable and cite their sources.

Jikan said:
This is usually the first source cited (either Prophet or one of her followers) in support of claims that Jesus spent time in Tibet, &c.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Clare_Prophet " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
The earliest English language reference that Jesus was anywhere near the Himalayas is Isis Unveiled, published in 1877.

Based on this, one Nicolas Notovitch concocted the La vie inconnue de Jesus Christ, published in English in 1890 as The Unknown Life of Christ.

Then finally, this book was composed, The Aquarian Age Gospel of Jesus, the Christ of the Piscean Age, written by Levi H. Dowling (May 18, 1844 - August 13, 1911) and first published in 1908.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: Naropa's Khechari's Intimate Instructions - What are they?
Content:
Karma Sherab said:
Mr. Gordo, the "intimate instructions" I think may refer to those instructions referred to as "uncommon"

Why intimate? - Maybe because they are to be transmitted to very few people at a time - like three or two or one - hence intimate.



Malcolm wrote:
It is a translation of upadeśa. Upa means "near", deśa means instruction. In this context upadeśas are instructions heard at the feet of one's master.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
Is Brahman ultimately a void? Is the personal aspect of Brahman an illusion to accommodate human needs? ?

Malcolm wrote:
The nature of brahmin is sat, cit, ananda, i.e., being, consciousness and bliss. Brahmin is not ultimately empty. Everything but brahmin is empty.

There are two kinds of brahmin, nirguna (without qualities) and saguna (with qualities). The former refers to brahmin as pure being, consciousness, and bliss. The latter refers to the personification of Brahmin as a godhead for those in the state of illusion (maya).

In Mahāyāna Buddhism, even ultimate reality is unreal.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 12th, 2011 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Serenity509 said:
but did Buddha deny the existence of a supreme force or higher power?

Malcolm wrote:
Yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
As I said, your basic predisposition is Vedic/Advaita.

Serenity509 said:
I agree more with Mahayana Buddhism than I do with Hinduism.

...

Malcolm wrote:
You think you do, but you clearly have not studied enough about Mahāyāna Buddhism to really understand what we Mahāyāna Buddhist think.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:


adinatha said:
WTF? This is the first time I've seen this word. Online dict says, an expert in liturgies and hymns? You must be joking.

Namdrol said:
Doxology is the study of opinions, from the Greek "doxa" as in orthodox.

N

gregkavarnos said:
Δόξα ("doxa") means to praise, honour or glorify.  Ορθόδοξος (orthodox) is the combination of two words "ορθό" meaning correct and "δοξος" meaning he who praises.  To be orthodox means to practice the correct method of praising or glorifying.

Doxology would be the study/word (logos, λόγος) of how one praises, honours, or glorifies (doxo, δόξα).  This would include liturgies and hymns but also icons, literature, sculpture, architecture and even forms of theology.


Malcolm wrote:
Middle English orthodoxe, from Old French, from Late Latin orthodoxus, from Late Greek orthodoxos : Greek ortho-, ortho- + Greek doxa, opinion (from dokein, to think; see dek- in Indo-European roots).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Monks can't get full enlightenment?
Content:


heart said:
A Nyingma monk told me that taking a physical consort is only necessary in the Sarma schools...

Almost nothing is translated on the practices of the third empowerment.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
As for the first point, it very much depends upon what system one practices. If one is practicing according to the instructions of Naro Khachod, for example, no consort is necessary for realizing mahāmudra. It describes two paths, one for those who lack desire, and one for those who possess desire.

As for the second point, the practice of the third empowerment has been translated from Lamdre. There is not much variation over all in the consort practice instruction in different schools. In general, consort practice is a feature of mother tantra, and not so much a feature of father tantra.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 8:22 PM
Title: Re: Who are the tulkus in the documentary "TULKU"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Just get rid of the whole damn tulku thing once and for all. It is a completely corrupt system based on money and power.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 7:51 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:


Namdrol said:
Properly speaking, I am Buddhist doxologist -- someone who is who studies and is fairly expert in various Buddhist doxologies.


PadmaVonSamba said:
Thanks, doc. just wondered. So, to relate that to this topic, do you think something is conveyed in liturgical singing or chanting that goes beyond the mere words that are being sung?

Not to suggest that this would in itself be an example of "transmission", but merely to suggest that something intangible can also be presented, along with the words?

Malcolm wrote:
There is a mixup -- there are two words, same spelling, differing meanings depending on context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 7:50 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:


adinatha said:
WTF? This is the first time I've seen this word. Online dict says, an expert in liturgies and hymns? You must be joking.

Malcolm wrote:
Doxology is the study of opinions, from the Greek "doxa" as in orthodox.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 7:43 PM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Serenity,
perhaps it would be better for you to approach Buddhism without any preconceived ideas whatsoever.

Serenity509 said:
If I have a preconceived idea, it's the concept of Brahman, which has definite parallels in Buddhism. What is Amida? What is Adibuddha?

Malcolm wrote:
Amitabha (Amida) was a guy, Bodhisattva Dipamkara, who made aspirations, and became a Buddha called Amitabha.

An Adibuddha is the first buddha of this eon. But that does not mean the Adibuddha is something like brahmin or paramashiva.

There is no corollary to brahmin in Buddhism because Buddhism, even in the Mahaparinirvana sutra, rejects all non-Buddhist definitions of self, including Brahmin.

As I said, your basic predisposition is Vedic/Advaita.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: Is the 'e.coli' epidemic a gNyan disease caused by Spirits?
Content:


narraboth said:
I still say, if you want to avoid risk in food, do it with scientific common sense, don't do it with organic myth such as 'the natural-er the better' 'we should go back to our grand-grand parents' eat-drink-farming habit'.
.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, organic farming is safer than conventional farming, gives higher yields per acre, and so on.

No one but an idiot puts raw manure on crops meant for humans. Manure has to be composted properly.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 8:59 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:



Namdrol said:
"This is generally explained as...."

N

PadmaVonSamba said:
Just curious, do you consider yourself to be a dogmatist?


Malcolm wrote:
Properly speaking, I am Buddhist doxologist -- someone who is who studies and is fairly expert in various Buddhist doxologies.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 8:57 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Namdrol said:
...none of which are compatible with Buddhism.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Please clarify what you mean by "compatible".


Malcolm wrote:
If it is not compatible with dependent origination, it is not compatible with Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 7:29 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
That is not true. Besides theism, there is pantheism, pandeism, panentheism, deism, etc., which all use the term "God".

Malcolm wrote:
...none of which are compatible with Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
In bardo you have no physical sense organs, only a mental body.

N



Enochian said:
Ok let me ask you this.

According to Nagarjuna, the self is merely a conceptual construct imputed upon causes and conditions (which are also conceptual constructs).

What is to prevent one from imputing oneself upon the whole universe, rather than just one's body?

Malcolm wrote:
Nothing -- but such a self is just as much a false imputation as the other.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 5:14 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Namdrol said:
This does not mean that Buddhist view of reality in general is monist or solipsistic.


Enochian said:
Only in the bardo then?

Bardo is fundamentally different than regular life?


Malcolm wrote:
In bardo you have no physical sense organs, only a mental body.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Enochian said:
Ok Namdrol, let me ask you this.

In the Bardo you are encouraged to view everything as oneself.

How is this not monism?


Malcolm wrote:
You are asked to understand all of your perceptions as your own display. When you do not understand your own perceptions as your own display, then you engage in deluded subject and object perception.

It is not monism because there is no suggestion that you are perceiving anything external to your own cognition of events as they unfold. This does not mean that Buddhist view of reality in general is monist or solipsistic.

Plus in the bardo, you are discussing the bardo of dharmatā. In the bardo of existence one seeks one father and mother, etc., and takes rebirth again, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 4:32 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Enochian said:
Hi Namdrol,

There are certain scholars (Thurman, David Gray) that suggest that body mandalas, are used to  promote personal identity with the Universe i.e. Heruka.

How is this not monism?

Namdrol said:
Well, this does not work, for example, the body mandala of heruka merely reflects the idea that the twenty four pithas in Jambudvipa (merely one continent out of eight) exist in the human body of the initiated person. It is more of an interiorized pilgrimage.

N


Enochian said:
Ok let me ask you this.

In the finality of Dzogchen, one sees the 5 wisdoms lights everywhere.  Everything is the five lights, which are recognized as oneself.

How is this not monism?

Malcolm wrote:
There are five lights, not one, correct? Plus one knows the minds of others correct? So how can this be monism?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 4:06 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Enochian said:
Hi Namdrol,

There are certain scholars (Thurman, David Gray) that suggest that body mandalas, are used to  promote personal identity with the Universe i.e. Heruka.

How is this not monism?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, this does not work, for example, the body mandala of heruka merely reflects the idea that the twenty four pithas in Jambudvipa (merely one continent out of eight) exist in the human body of the initiated person. It is more of an interiorized pilgrimage.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
It might be a matters of semantics. Is there a primordial force that the universe emanates from?

Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhism, the creation of this universe results from the the collective karma of all sentient beings together. So, no primordial force, unless you are willing to call ignorance that primordial force.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 2:35 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
LastLegend said:
All is equal...how can there be a higher one?

Serenity509 said:
Is there a spiritual reality both within and beyond your individual self?


Malcolm wrote:
There is no self that is either the same as or separate from the aggretates, so it is an irrelevant question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 2:34 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
adinatha said:
I have also found that transmission is not indispensable for gaining experience with practices. For example, no teacher gave me transmission for deity yoga X or guru yoga Y, but I practiced these with devotion and the signs of accomplishment arose nonetheless.

Namdrol said:
This is generally explained as the blessings of māra.

N

adinatha said:
Sure. But that's just general. With the lineage mind transmission one has power to overcome four maras.


Malcolm wrote:
Only if you are a buddha, and I imagine you are not really willing to claim that status for yourself. Only a buddha has overcome the four māras.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
Are you willing to recognize that your views may not be universally shared within Buddhism?

Namdrol said:
What I described to you above is a normative definition shared by all schools of Buddhism grounded in Mahāyāna sutra.

Serenity509 said:
The idea that there is no higher self or all pervading spiritual reality that can be personally experienced isn't universally shared in Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
All Mahāyāna schools maintain that dharmakāya can only seen or experienced by Buddhas. So, if you are a Buddha, you can personally experience dharmakāya. Otherwise, you can only experience nirmanakāya or sambhogakāya.

Some schools give the name "experience of dharmakāya" to an experience of emptiness, but they do not mean the actual resultant dharmakāya, since that latter experience is an experience of total unceasing omniscience that is beyond limitation. That is the experience of buddhas alone.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
Are you willing to recognize that your views may not be universally shared within Buddhism?

Malcolm wrote:
What I described to you above is a normative definition shared by all schools of Buddhism grounded in Mahāyāna sutra, including Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
There is no god in Buddhism. Dharmakāya is not God.

Serenity509 said:
Dharmakaya is not a theistic God. Is Dharmakaya a compassionate presence that can be personally experienced?

Malcolm wrote:
Dharmakāya is beyond mind. So it cannot be experienced with the mind. It is a state of realization. It can only been seen by Buddhas. The limitless compassion of a buddha unfolds upon the realization of dharmakāya. But dharmakāya is not itself something real.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
adinatha said:
I have also found that transmission is not indispensable for gaining experience with practices. For example, no teacher gave me transmission for deity yoga X or guru yoga Y, but I practiced these with devotion and the signs of accomplishment arose nonetheless.

Malcolm wrote:
This is generally explained as the blessings of māra.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 2:07 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:


Serenity509 said:
Believing in a force higher than ourselves isn't automatically theism.

Malcolm wrote:
There are no higher and lower forces: there are only sentient beings in samsara, bodhisattvas on the path out of samsara and buddhas who show the way out of samsara having traversed that path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Namdrol said:
Would you consider Soyen Shaku, who was greatly responsible for introducing the Western world to Zen Buddhism, a reputable source?
I would not. Japanese scholars of his era were too much enamored of western philosophy.

Serenity509 said:
If that is your opinion, perhaps we should agree to disagree in peace then. One of the things I appreciate about Buddhism is that a wide variety of interpretations about God are tolerated.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no god in Buddhism. Dharmakāya is not God.

All Hindu theistic notions are refuted in Buddhism since they contradict Buddha's basic insight into reality, dependent origination.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 11th, 2011 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Unknown said:
Would you consider Soyen Shaku, who was greatly responsible for introducing the Western world to Zen Buddhism, a reputable source?

Malcolm wrote:
I would not. Japanese scholars of his era were too much enamored of western philosophy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Astus said:
[If I read the 5 precepts and keep them is not the same if I hear and then keep them - no reason why.

Malcolm wrote:
Do you think that you can just decide to a be bhiḳsu, shave your head, put on robes, and that is sufficient. Do you think you can be a monk or a nun without being ordained?

You have to receive them (precepts) from someone who holds those precepts. You cannot take them on your own. Keeping the five precepts does not have the force of the vows unless they are received according to the rite of either an upasaka, shramanera or bhikṣu.

Why is so? It is so because the Buddha set the system up. It is true that the ordination of monks evolved from a simple declaration "Now you are bhikṣus" to an elaborate rite of bestowing the vows with a quorum of monks and so on during the Buddha's lifetime. Differences in vinayas arose because monks were being ordained by senior Arhats hundreds of miles from where the Buddha was living and differences crept into the ritual for bestowing vows. But the key point is that one must receive the vows from someone who holds them. You cannot receive pratimoksha vows from a video, not can you take them on your own. All vows come from the Buddha. If you want vows, you must take them from a Buddhist who holds them.

The exception to this is bodhisattva vows (in the madhyamaka system). In the Madhyamaka system, if there is no preceptor available to grant bodhisattva vows, one may take them through a visualization.

Otherwise, all Pratimoksha vows and Vajrayāna vows must be received from a preceptor or guru, each according to its own proper rite.

Vajrayāna teachings may only be given to people who hold Vajrayāna vows. This is why the first portion of any empowerment is conferral of the basic Vajrayāna vows; with more vows being conferred with each successive level of empowerment. In this context, it is like preparing a field before you plant.

Transmission is a living thing, not something one can receive from relic.

Sherab criticized the seal and impression. But he/she does not understand a critical point -- thinking that one can receive transmission from a recording is like imagining that a rubbing done of a an impression is equivalent to act of stamping an impression with a seal. In this case, the problem is that there is no transmission since there is only one person involved i.e. the person playing the recording. Transmission requires two people, a person giving transmission and a person receiving transmission. They must somehow be related to each other through the act of delivering the substance of transmission which is act of communication by a speaker to a hearer via sounds, words and symbols at minimum. In Vajrayāna there is are further experiential transmissions which come about when the teacher deliberately induces specific experiences in a student. But again, it is through sound, words, and symbols. Taste, sight, touch, etc., these experiences are symbols.

So in summary, Astus, transmissions is nothing mystical, but it does require two parties who are engaged in an the act of transmission, one giving, the other receiving,at the same time. Without this, there is no transmission.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 8:55 PM
Title: Re: God in Buddhism
Content:
Serenity509 said:
My belief in God is similar to Hinduism. It could also be termed panentheism. I believe that God is the oversoul of the universe. I believe that God, while ultimately transpersonal, can be related to on a personal level. I believe that there is a piece of God within us all and the purpose of Enlightenment is to become one with God.

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhism is not for you. You are a Hindu by disposition.

Try out non-dual Shaivism. It will be more to your taste.

Buddhism will constantly disappoint you.

For we Buddhists, there is no oversoul, undersoul or middle soul. There is no soul at all.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 8:26 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I think you'll find you got a lot of answers, just that you don't want to agree with any of them!

Astus said:
True, because I don't see them as answering the question, but rather avoiding it.


Malcolm wrote:
No, I answered your question, in detail, without avoiding anything. You just don't like the answer because you are stuck in an intellectual game.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 10:16 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Sherab said:
You have to reply to my post as a whole because my argument depends on the three parts of my post.  If you look at my argument carefully, you have not addressed the issue my post.  Why?  The seal in your reply is not the teacher if it is the words that he spoke that is important.  Therefore a recording of the spoken words could be the seal as well.  If you insist it is the presence of the teacher that is important and not the words that he spoke, then something else must be taking place.

Malcolm wrote:
No. Recorded words are not the same. They are a recording of an act of speech, but not the act of speech itself. Teaching and bestowing transmission are acts.

The words recorded are divorced from the act of speech. They are relics, not alive.

It is the act of speaking and the act of listening happening together at the same time that constitutes a transmission.

Now, this discussion is boring me to tears so I am not going to continue jousting with people's intellectual foppery any further.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 8:40 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
From what you describe, a transmission is no different from a teaching. is that accurate?

Namdrol said:
In terms of Dzogchen, yes. There is no magical "transmission" fairy dust.

N

PadmaVonSamba said:
So, are you saying that anyone who ever went to any sort of teaching or public talk by a lama received a transmission?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Listening to a recording however has no transmission.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 7:56 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
From what you describe, a transmission is no different from a teaching. is that accurate?

Malcolm wrote:
In terms of Dzogchen, yes. There is no magical "transmission" fairy dust.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 7:54 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Sherab said:
...one should be able to get transmission from a recording.

Malcolm wrote:
Nope.



Sherab said:
If the presence of the teacher is required in a transmission, something else (other than the teacher speaking and the students listening and understanding) must be happening that cannot happen in a recording.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup. Communication between two people.


Sherab said:
Therefore to say that a transmission is that a teacher speaks and the students listen and understand and then to insist that a transmission can only be a transmission when the teacher is present just does not gel.

Malcolm wrote:
When a seal makes an impression, one must have two things present, a seal and the wax. In your example, it is like have a seal in one place, and the wax somewhere else.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 7:14 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Astus said:
If that was it all I wouldn't raise the issue at all. But then there's exactly what Cone said about an unbroken lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. There is an unbroken lineage. In Vajrayāna is goes Dharmakāya, Sambhogakāya -- then some mahāsiddha, etc.

All these lineages are unbroken. Chan did not invent the idea of "lineage" until they were put in competition with Vajrayāna in the late seventh century.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 7:10 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Fa Dao said:
gee ya think??  I just KNEW the moment I clicked "submit" that someone would respond like that. Nice to see the great scholar has a sense of humor
Perhaps a bit more specificity?


Malcolm wrote:
Honestly, I have no clue what Rinpoche is teaching. He often does not specify a text.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Fa Dao said:
ok, I called and left a message. BTW, does anyone know what will be covered in this upcoming webcast?


Malcolm wrote:
Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I first applied at DC West about almost a month ago. Still havent heard back from them. Then after 2 weeks I applied at the main Tsegyalgar East and payed my membership dues through paypal. That was over a week ago. Still havent heard anything from them either. I am not pissed or anything, I realize these things sometimes take time. But if you all think I should call or email them I will. Thanks for your concern and help


Malcolm wrote:
call the main office. That is best thing to do, Be persistent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
the present webcast is open.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 3:59 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Fa Dao said:
I joined DC weeks ago and have not heard anything back yet. How do I get on the mailing list for the webcasts in the meantime?  Sonam, thank you so much for posting this as I would have missed it if you hadnt.


Malcolm wrote:
Webcast Team < mailto:webcast@shangshunginstitute.org >


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Sanskrit translations for Dang, Rolpa, Tsal?
Content:
adinatha said:
Do Dang, Rolba and Tsal have sanskrit roots?


Malcolm wrote:
svarata, lila, vikrama


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 10th, 2011 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:


conebeckham said:
One Proviso, though, Namdrol......the "Transmitter" must "hold" the transmission in order for to to be valid.

Malcolm wrote:
That's a given.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Astus said:
And I'm asking about this second form, whether it's the transmission of precepts (as in the Fundamentalists? topic) or the transmission of something Tantric.


Malcolm wrote:
This has been explained already a hundred time: a teachers talks from his experience and realization using words and similes. You actively listen and understand.

That is all there is to transmission. It's not telepathic, it is not a substantial "something" you can put in a box.

Transmission means direct communication from one person who has some knowledge (in this case, creation and completion stage, dzogchen, etc) to someone who wants to develop that knowledge themselves. There are different methods for giving transmission. But they all share one thing in common -- a realized teacher communicates using words and similes and a student listens and understands at the same time. This is really not so fricking hard to understand. So I don't see why you are wasting people's time with this inane question anymore.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Astus said:
Compared to that, insisting on a personal transmission


Malcolm wrote:
Without personal transmission, you will never practice Vajrayana or Dzogchen. Ever. Instead, you will lead yourself and your students into hell.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
Unless someone might have an allergic reaction to taking vows or precepts, I think they should be given to those who want them, and let them get on with the business of keeping them.

Namdrol said:
Sure, providing they come from a living lineage.

N

PadmaVonSamba said:
What lineage did Sakyamuni come from?

Malcolm wrote:
That all depends upon which yāna you  are considering. Which account would you like?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Ngondro
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
]Don't forget that you are in the Kagyu forum Dechen and that each tradition has its own "version" and approach to ngondro and that they are not really interchangable.

Malcolm wrote:
The real meaning of "ngondro" is Guru yoga. First it is guru yoga to a guru in front of you; then on top of your head; then in front you to whom you make offerings; then in front of you from whom you receive empworments.

As long as it is understood that ngondro is guru yoga in the beginning, in the middle, and in the end, then this should remove obstacles to practice.

There is no practice more profound than Guru Yoga, it is the defining practice of Vajrayāna which is not present in Mahayāna or lower tantras.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 9:56 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
adinatha said:
Group karma is similar results from similar causes. Each individual has its own continuum, suffering alone. It is like a mirroring effect. The nature of awareness is mirror-like. If I hold up a mirror, and you hold up a mirror while standing nearby one another, we will reflect one another. And so it goes on down the line through space and time. The master/disciple dynamic is just this with regard to body, speech and mind of Buddha.

Astus said:
The nature of awareness being mirror-like doesn't mean that we keep reflecting everything we see. Reflecting to whom, anyway? But this is just a metaphor and it may not necessarily be about the reflective attributes of mirrors. If I sit in front of a person that person's body won't appear as my body, nor will that happen with speech or mind. Where is the mirroring effect then?


Malcolm wrote:
Your mind is the surface of a mirror.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Namdrol said:
A common example is a seal and its impression.

Astus said:
Would that mean that the teacher/preceptor directly inputs certain mental patterns from his mind to the receiver of the transmission? That would be like reprogramming somebody's mind. That sounds to me contrary to common sense and karmic integrity.

Malcolm wrote:
Obustus, I have already explained this to you a hundred times: transmission means a teacher speaks, in words and similes according to his realization. You actively listen and understand. That is transmission. This why, for example, at the end of transmitting vows, the officiating upadhyaya asks you "Are you happy"? This means, "did you really participate in this ritual of transmitting the precepts?"

This is all there is to transmission. It cannot be gained from a book. It must be gained from another living, breathing human being.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Yontan said:
It might be helpful to explain the term "ignorance."
There is a not recognizing, separate from and anterior to a mistaken grasping.


Malcolm wrote:
The nature of innate ignorance and imputing ignorance is the same. They are both absence of knowledge.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A common example is a seal and its impression.

N


gregkavarnos said:
Since you have not "perceived" transmission so how can you understand it?  Through metaphor of course!  Everybody here is using metaphors to try to explain to you what transmission is otherwise the conversation will be kind of like this:

Astus:  What's an apple?
Everybody else:  It's an apple!

Kinda stoopid, huh?...

Astus said:
So you say that it can't be explained what is being transmitted because "you have to experience it"? Even about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple there is quite a lot to say, and this is just Wikipedia. If somebody asks about selflessness it would be a weak and dismissive answer to say "you have to experience it" or give a few metaphors as if one were talking about human reproduction to little children. Fortunately there are many teachings on selflessness to provide a clear and lucid explanation to anyone interested. Anything even close to that on transmission?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 7:23 AM
Title: Re: What is Transmission?
Content:
adinatha said:
There is both individual and common karma, right?

Astus said:
Only beings can have karma. A group has no karma of its own only its members, since a group is not a being to have a will.


Malcolm wrote:
There is common karma when similar causes bear similar results. You need to read Abhidharma again.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 6:07 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
Unless someone might have an allergic reaction to taking vows or precepts, I think they should be given to those who want them, and let them get on with the business of keeping them.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, providing they come from a living lineage.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The key point is this: the Mūlasatvastivadas, the Theravadins and the Dharmaguptakas all have their own Vinaya tradition. They are not interchangeable, though some wish it were so.

Traditionally, each vinaya tradition came from one of Buddha's arhat disciples. So for example, Mulasarvastivada came from Rahula; Thervada from Upali, and so on.

Each vinaya has its own oral tradition and explanations of the vows, as well as procedures for ordination. They are not interchangeable.

pueraeternus said:
Just a thought: in all the sutric accounts of the Buddha's parinirvana, he said the sangha is free to remove the minor rules if they so wish after his death. This would mean he gave the permission to alter the vinaya. Would this be a valid reason to recreate the Theravadin and Mulsarvastivadin bhikshuni lineage by altering the existing bhikshu vinaya vows of the respective sects?

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha never told Ananda which minor rules. Therefore, no one ever removed any.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
Everything is useless if you don't learn from it.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, so you must take your own advice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 9th, 2011 at 12:50 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
...He is not saying that Greg ill willingly means to scrap the monastic tradition of TB, but that his proposition is equivalent to doing just that.

gregkavarnos said:
Except that I didn't make a proposition but a suposition and I had to blatantly state three times that I was not trying to do anything more than understand the situation.  So really there was a fair quantity of projection happening, and anyway since when were you Namdrols lawyer DN?

PS Lets not derail the thread any further.


Malcolm wrote:
Greg:

There was not projection, it is a way of showing you the consequences of your suggestion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:


Namdrol said:
If you say "....." this is the same as suggesting ....."

PadmaVonSamba said:
I deleted the specifics.
Practicing right speech can also mean not putting words into the mouth of someone else. If you disagree with what someone asserts, don't argue about  comparisons and analogies that you yourself assume. Take time to understand what the other person is really saying and refer to that, or explain why you disagree.


Malcolm wrote:
Pretty useless post.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The key point is this: the Mūlasatvastivadas, the Theravadins and the Dharmaguptakas all have their own Vinaya tradition. They are not interchangeable, though some wish it were so.

Traditionally, each vinaya tradition came from one of Buddha's arhat disciples. So for example, Mulasarvastivada came from Rahula; Thervada from Upali, and so on.

Each vinaya has its own oral tradition and explanations of the vows, as well as procedures for ordination. They are not interchangeable.

Astus said:
That can be said supposing that there is something more to those precepts besides what is actually written down. But there isn't.


Malcolm wrote:
Astus:

Based on this statement, and your confusion about Dzogchen in the other thread, one thing is clear: you do not understand the concept of transmission. You cannot get transmission from a book.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
If you say "adopt reduced set of vows" this is the same as suggesting we scrap the monastic tradition of Tibetan Buddhism.

gregkavarnos said:
Dear Namdrol,
1.  During this whole discussion I have been talking within the context of the hypothetical situation I formulated way back here https://www.dharmawheel.net/posting.php?mode=quote&f=66&p=43512#pr43488 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2.  If you don't want to help me understand that's fine, but there is no reason to generate hostility/conflict where none exists.


Malcolm wrote:
The key point is this: the Mūlasatvastivadas, the Theravadins and the Dharmaguptakas all have their own Vinaya tradition. They are not interchangeable, though some wish it were so.

Traditionally, each vinaya tradition came from one of Buddha's arhat disciples. So for example, Mulasarvastivada came from Rahula; Thervada from Upali, and so on.

Each vinaya has its own oral tradition and explanations of the vows, as well as procedures for ordination. They are not interchangeable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
So you are suggesting we scrap the monastic vows of Tibetan Buddhism.

gregkavarnos said:
You gonna stop with the projections at some point in time or what?
I repeat( for the third time):  I ain't suggesting nothing, I'm just trying to understand the issue.

PS  What is the nature of the 30 extra vows for monks?  Is it like a whole section (a unit of extra vows) or are they spread amongst the other "categories" of vows.  I have read the Theravadra vows but have not seen the lists of vows from the other lineages.


Malcolm wrote:
If you say "adopt reduced set of vows" this is the same as suggesting we scrap the monastic tradition of Tibetan Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
They can't recite posadha together because the vows are given in different orders...

gregkavarnos said:
This is hardly a problem, I mean will the vows lose their significance if they are recited in a different order (like if they changed the order so they could recite it together)?

Malcolm wrote:
The vows are significant as a whole, they cannot be traded out like playing cards, for one's convenience. This is why for example, Atisha was never able to recite posadha vows with monks in Tibet.


gregkavarnos said:
...and in the case of the Theravada vows, there are 30 o so less vows.
So I guess they could only ordained based on the smaller set of vows.

Malcolm wrote:
So you are suggesting we scrap the monastic vows of Tibetan Buddhism.


gregkavarnos said:
By the way, how did you arrive at the 500 year figure for the collapse of the monastic sangha?

Malcolm wrote:
Educated guess.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 8:30 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
IF they can't recite posadha together [they can't], then what makes you think they can transmit vows together, and whose would they transmit? The reduced rule set of Theravada, or the expanded rule set of the other two?

gregkavarnos said:
Why can't they recite the posadha together?  Language differences?

I imagine they would have to transmit the reduced set since all three  would hold all the vows (again I imagine) contained in the smallest set.

Malcolm wrote:
They can't recite posadha together because the vows are given in different orders, and in the case of the Theravada vows, there are 30 o so less vows.

So what you are basically suggesting is that we scrap Mulasarvastivada and Dharmaguptaka. But if you do that, you will scrap the nuns vows in Dharmaguptaka, since they died out in the other two orders (and the reason for their dying out is a gender issue). If you want nuns vows in Thervavada and Tibetan Buddhism, either Theravada and Mulasarvastivada needs to be scrapped, or, things remain at the status quo i.e. nuns who want a valid ordination get that from the Dharmaguptaka lineage.

Someone mentioned that monks form Tibetan Buddhism and Theravada were present at these nuns ordinations -- yes, they were, but not as members of the required quorum. They were present as guests and observers.

Then there is the additional gender issue of the 80 odd extra vows nuns must keep in addition to the monks vows. This is unfair. But will these be scrapped? No. Should they be scrapped, no.

Are all monastic sanghas going to collapse in the next 500 years? Definitely.

Should we be sad? No.

Will there still be Buddhist practice even though the monastic sangha is no more? Yes.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 8:17 PM
Title: Re: Ngondro
Content:
Adamantine said:
Ngakpas are the tantric-lay-householder-yogis who are said to have kept the Vajrayana Dharma alive during the purges of the monasteries. .

Malcolm wrote:
The monasteries were not purged, they were shut down because they are a huge burden on the Tibetan govt. Langdarma shut them down because the Tibetan Kingdom could not afford to run them anymore nor pay for the monks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 8:15 PM
Title: Re: Ngondro
Content:
Jangchup Donden said:
Further, if it wasn't for lay Buddhists, Buddhism in Tibet wouldn't have survived Langdarma.


Malcolm wrote:
Actually, Langdarma was unfairly maligned and murdered without good cause.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat
Content:


Namdrol said:
In reality, what ChNN did was free Dzogchen from Tibetan politics and money games.

Adamantine said:
Do you believe there's no politics or money games in the Dzogchen Community?

Why are people turned away from retreats that genuinely can only afford to pay most, if not the entire amount requested, due to financial hardship?

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, there are politics in the DC, but not money games. What politics there are in the DC are not around Dzogchen. Mostly they are around differing opinions of ChNN's intentions.

It is simple, if you are poor, you get a poor persons membership ($85.00 per annum) which gives you a %50 discount on retreats.  If you are not a member of the DC, well, what can I say? If you want teachings from ChNN you can always attend _free_ webcasts, as many as you like, you just might have to lose a little sleep. In reality, it is expensive to put on retreats, and every community is independent financially from the others. So, if you can't pay, stay home and watch webcast. If you can pay, go to retreat and enjoy.


Adamantine said:
Yet in the Indian heart of Tibet-in-exile, large scale retreats and empowerments are regularly given to all who come completely free of charge?

Malcolm wrote:
That is not an Indian heart. In India and in ancient Tibet, masters charged large fees for empowerments. These fees come directly from the tantras themselves.

And if that is where people want to go, spending thousands of dollars on flights to India for these free retreats, then they should. But don't complain that DC retreats are not free when you are spending large sums of money to travel to India for your "free" retreat.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 7:56 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:


gregkavarnos said:
While I agree that there must be some kind of continuity in the ordination lineages isn't it enough to just get three or more precept holders, regardless of lineage, to bestow the vows?

Malcolm wrote:
IF they can't recite posadha together [they can't], then what makes you think they can transmit vows together, and whose would they transmit? The reduced rule set of Theravada, or the expanded rule set of the other two?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 7:54 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
All the vows come from the Buddha, they are just different transmissions.

Astus said:
Since the vows are different the transmissions are corrupted...


Malcolm wrote:
No, this is merely due to regional differences.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat
Content:
adinatha said:
But isn't obvious he's taken controversial approaches to the teachings and broken with tradition?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, it is not obvious at all. I have been his student for 19 years. He is actually a pretty conservative teacher. His attitude toward Bon is no different than the attitude of Guru Chowang, the immediate incarnation of Nyangral, and the terton who revealed the seven line prayer. Guru Chowang wrote in his "Great Origin of Treasures:

"First: the two the supreme of all beneficial qualities, [5/a] the treasure of the true words of Bon emanations: the way the compassionate body came from the pure dimension of the ultimate nature [bon nyid i.e. chos nyid] and the after the treasure of body, speech and mind arose, the way the teaching was spread, i.e. the way a treasure descends from a treasure.

First: the pure dimension of the ultimate nature completely free from falling into any parts or divisions was singular and unique, the treasure of the hidden Bon dharmakāya [bon chos sku] which has nothing to give up, appeared from pure activity to tame beings as the sambhogakāya Shenlha Wodkar [gshen lha 'od dkar]. The way his compassion was moved is that in general he thought of all migrating beings. Specifically, he thought of beings in Jambudvīpa.

Second: after the treasure of the body, speech and mind was produced, the teachings were widely spread. The way the treasure descends from a treasure is that in order to tame the the confusion of ignorance, the root of samsara,at Wolmo Lungring in the land of Zhang Zhung the hidden treasure of compassion arrived in the form of Shenrab Miwoche [gshen rab mi bo che, i.e. the supreme one of the Shen clan, the greatest of men]. The hidden treasure was concealed in a single intention by all the Tathāgatas in the mind of Shenrab, and he taught the nine vehicles of Bon. 

Afterwards, Shenrab's words were collected by the fortune Bonpos and placed in a catalogue. The cause Bon tamed ordinary beings, and result Bon tamed intelligent beings. 

The teachings were spread in Tokharistan, where people wear silk turbans, the land India and the border lands and also spread in dPur rGyal in Tibet and Bon was disseminated in the beginning.

The King was given the name as the Elder Brother of Bon because he made sure the teaching did not decline, and also he concealed the Bon treasures of cause and result in Zhang Zhung the temple of Shampo Lhatse. Furthermore,  as they were spread in the mountain of white peaks in Oddiyana, the Chinese mountain Dru Dzin [5/b] and in southern and northern Tibet, having concealed treasures which descended from treasures, the Bon texts were not destroyed, and the Bonpos became renowned. 

Also I, Chowang, say that the profound teaching of Bon is uninterrupted."

If ChNN is to be faulted for respecting Bon Dzogchen, how much more so the master who originally revealed the seven line prayer? Obviously, Nyingmapas who do not respect Bon also do not respect their own lineage masters.

In reality, the only novel thing ChNN does is not pay lip service to the gradual approach of the gsar ma schools. And even this is not novel, but rather a return to the old Nyingma way of doing things, rather than this neo-Nyingma gradualism.

In reality, what ChNN did was free Dzogchen from Tibetan politics and money games. And for that, some worldly tibetans and westerners wearing robes, who bilk their students of their wealth and rob them of their precious human birth,  who bear the title of this and that rinpoche hate ChNN. Well, f76k them.

N

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 8th, 2011 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Astus said:
Considering that there are quite a few Vinayas and pratimokshas it is a bit naive to think that all of them are directly from Shakyamuni himself. Understanding the history of Buddhism can actually facilitate the weakening of sectarianism, like https://sites.google.com/site/sectsandsectarianism/ by Bhikkhu Sujato. This crossing the barriers I think is a major task of 21st century global Buddhism.


Malcolm wrote:
All the vows come from the Buddha, they are just different transmissions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 10:53 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Caz said:
So if one vows to keep a precept, but however doesnt receive it from the correct place in question then even if it is kept it is not actually existant ?

Namdrol said:
correct

Caz said:
Okay Is there a source one can cite where Buddha explains as such ?


Malcolm wrote:
This is all very clearly explained in Sakya Pandita's analysis of the three vows, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: What is a tantric teaching in Buddhism?
Content:


Urgyen Chodron said:
But to tell others about the practice is a big downfall, many moons in hell, to even read it without being initiated the same. I can see why teachers often say it is not about sex. At least Namdrol has been honest about it here.

Malcolm wrote:
Sex is part of tantric practice, but so is eating, sleeping, walking and talking. Tantric practice is designed to include all elements from our life as part of the process of waking up.

Either you can accept this; or if not, it is better for you to practice Theravada or a Mahayāna form of Buddhism.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Caz said:
So if one vows to keep a precept, but however doesnt receive it from the correct place in question then even if it is kept it is not actually existant ?

Malcolm wrote:
correct


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The vows then are just natural virtues, they do not have the force of continuous practice behind them, and since the lineage is broken, they no longer come from the Buddha.

Caz said:
Well if you make and keep vows then they certainly have the force of continous effort behind them.

Malcolm wrote:
Not without a valid ordination. Without a valid ordination, you don't actually have the vows in question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Authority in dzogchen
Content:


Caz said:
Everyone is entitled to practise the way they see fit and according to who evers view they want...


Malcolm wrote:
Yes. In the end, even if one states the Guru is the supreme authority, in the end it all boils down to oneself.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Astus said:
Magnus,

As the quotes themselves explain, "re-enlightenment" is meant within the context of Samantabhadra as the primordially enlightened buddha and the teaching of original wakefulness. Nobody said that it implies we were all once buddhas then became ordinary beings even if the explanation is given again and again how one keeps straying from buddha-mind every moment.


Malcolm wrote:
Even Samantabhadra first possessed ignorance. Re-enlightenment is an impossibility.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I like how this conversation has turned. If Buddhists won't confront gender issues, who will?


Namdrol said:
It is not a gender issue. it is a transmission issue. Completely different issues.

Caz said:
So what exactly would be the problem with giving them these vows even if it is a dead transmission ? when one decides to keep morale discipline surely this helps toward mind training...


Malcolm wrote:
The vows then are just natural virtues, they do not have the force of continuous practice behind them, and since the lineage is broken, they no longer come from the Buddha.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 9:17 PM
Title: Re: Authority in dzogchen
Content:
Caz said:
Im not sure about anyone else but my it has been advised to me by some that if one is going to have multiple teachers they should be within the same tradition and hold the same view as ones primary teacher to avoid this sort of confusion.


Malcolm wrote:
In my opinion this approach leads to narrow-mindedness. For example, this was not Sakya Pandita's approach, nor Longchenpa's, nor even Lama Tsongkhapa's approach.

In the end, Sakya Pandita, Longchenpa and Tsongkhapa each had to make up their own mind about what to accept and what to reject. I recommend everyone follow this approach.

Even if we accept that the Guru is the supreme authority, in the end, oneself is the final authority.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Authority in dzogchen
Content:
sherabpa said:
I know this matter annoys a lot of people, but I'm not sure why its so annoying, yet, so here goes.

The source of authority in dzogchen and vajrayana is one's guru, I am told.  If one's guru presents the teachings in one way, and another guru presents it in another, contradictory, way, how should one regard this situation?

Malcolm wrote:
One should follow the advice of one's root guru.



sherabpa said:
I'm thinking here of the ngondro, of course, and the different views on its importance among dzogchen lineages.  But it also applies generally to, say, Sakya Pandita's views on Mahamudra and Vajravarahi.

You can see how this is essential to understand if one has received teachings of both lineages, or if one wishes to do so.

Malcolm wrote:
I am someone who has done a three year Sakya Lamdre retreat, has translated many Sakya texts, I am also a Dzogchen practitioner, and have translated many Dzogchen texts.

In Lamdre there is a teaching called the four authorities. The principle authority which is the root of the other three is the authority of the Guru i.e. "Since all previous and subsequent authorities depend on this, the authority of the Guru is supreme."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 9:44 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
if it involves gender, it's a gender issue.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if you are narrow minded.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 8:43 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
David N. Snyder said:
Not sure about the technical aspects of the Mahayana vinaya, but if what you have is correct, what about when there was no majority? I am certain at some point in history on at least one occasion there were not a majority of "real" monks present. Again, the broken line.

In the Theravada vinaya, there must be at least 5 monks present who do not have the parajika offense for the ordination to be valid (Mahavagga, chapter 9, vs 4.1–4.4).

Again, realistically, some where along the line, it has been broken, if you take a literal view.

What matters is their conviction and adherence to the precepts, not the outward ceremony.


Malcolm wrote:
If that were the case, than that vinaya lineage transmission would be broken and beyond reviving.

We should not expect everything to last forever, including the monastic sangha.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 6:37 AM
Title: Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat
Content:


Vajrahridaya said:
Well, to have ChNNR confirmed by historical or older present Masters of high esteem is pretty good for faith I would think.  For you it's a given, but for plenty of us new to the world of Vajrayana in this life, it's an excellent thing to know that... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatral_Rinpoche is cool with ChNNR.  That's awesome to me.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN never needed any confirmation in the past, he does not need any now, and he won't need any in the future.

If some tibetan asked me that question I would say, "ask him yourself if you really care".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 6:24 AM
Title: Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat
Content:


rai said:
I am just curious how do you know all those details? first hand informations or some Buddhists forums?

username said:
What details? About Chatral Rinpoche being very conservative yet a guru of ChNNR who is one of the few living people to have a long life prayer by CR? These are all well known general facts in DC. Tell me which other living terton's terma has been verified by him?

Malcolm wrote:
more importantly, who gives a rat's ass.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
It is not about gender, it is about transmission.

David N. Snyder said:
Even among the male monk lines, it would be quite naive to think that all the ordinations from the time of the Buddha were "unbroken". It is much more likely that in fact, there were several ordinations performed by monks who were later discovered to have committed a parajika offense entailing defeat from the Sanha. Thereby, making all future ordinations in that line broken, according to a literal interpretation.


Malcolm wrote:
Not so, even if there is a unknown parajika among the quorum that was later revealed, all that matters is that the majority of of the monks had fully intact vows. This idea about one parajika was a novelty introduced by Sangharakshita. It is a false assertion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 6:17 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
David N. Snyder said:
The outward form of the rite, ritual, and ceremony is not important.


Malcolm wrote:
What is important is the transmission. If the transmission is broken, then it is dead.

Fortunately for women, there exists the Dharmaguptaka ordination.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 6:14 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
Yes, they are Dharmaguptaka nuns. But there is still no surviving ordination of nuns of Theravada and Mulasarvastivada. There are only Dharmaguptaka nuns.

David N. Snyder said:
In your opinion.

In my opinion, the women who took the Theravada ordinations are Theravada bhikkhunis and the women who took the Tibetan vows and vinaya are Tibetan nuns. They follow their respective traditions. The outward form of the rite, ritual, and ceremony is not important. What matters is their devotion and acceptance of the vinaya of their respective traditions.

But even that outward ritual and ceremony included monastics from their own traditions and acceptance from their monk preceptors of their traditions.


Malcolm wrote:
You don't understand. In Tibetan Buddhism, those woman who became bhikṣunis took the Dharmaguptaka ordination since it did not survive in Mulasarvastivada. Those woman in Thailand have a broken ordination. I understand the reasons behind it, but it is not a proper ordination if they did not ordain with Dharmaguptaka nuns.

This is my position. If the male monastic ordination died out, it would be inappropriate to "revive" it. Why, because the direct transmission from the Buddha would have been broken.

It is not about gender, it is about transmission.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 6:05 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
won't happen.

David N. Snyder said:
It already did. There are now over 1,000 fully ordained nuns in Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they are Dharmaguptaka nuns. But there is still no surviving ordination of nuns of Theravada and Mulasarvastivada. There are only Dharmaguptaka nuns.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
David N. Snyder said:
This discussion on nuns shows how the literal word can work to the detriment of Buddhism and is not what the Buddha intended.

Malcolm wrote:
One cannot invent one's own traditions. It is not a gender issue. Since there is a Vinaya ordination for women in Dharmaguptaka, they are free to take it if they wish. But one cannot invent one for Theravada and Mulasarvastivada. Presumably, for these women, beings bhikṣunis is more important than which vinaya lineage they belong to, right?

David N. Snyder said:
Due to attachment to rites, rituals, and ceremonies...

Malcolm wrote:
This does not apply to Vinaya.

David N. Snyder said:
Again, shows the flexibility of the Buddha, even allowing the abolishing of some rules as needed.

Malcolm wrote:
I doubt Buddha would approve of inventing ordinations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 5:36 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Namdrol said:
There is no term or concept in Dzogchen as being "re-enlightened". Does not exist and does not make sense.

Astus said:
Nevertheless, the above authors did use it with the same meaning in a Dzogchen context. If it is not a traditional term it might be a new one.

Tulku Urgyen's "Repeating the Words of the Buddha" has a whole chapter entitled "Re-enlightenment".

At the second movement, the delusions are dispelled and the (perfection) of primordial wisdom develops. That is the development of the basis (itself) as the result (of enlightenment). It is called the re-enlightenment (or self-liberation) through the realization of the essence, the primordial Buddhahood.
(Longchen Rabjam: The Practice of Dzogchen, p. 207)

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche said, "The confusion that arose in ... the path can be cleared away. When we remove the temporary stains from primordially awakened rigpa, we become re-enlightened instead of primordially enlightened. This is accomplished by following the oral instructions of a fully qualified master."
(Nyoshul Khenpo: Natural Great Perfection, p. 71)

We should train in the state of rigpa that is originally pure. Although the essence is primordially enlightened, the yogi has to be re-enlightened. We have fallen into delusion. Attaining stability in non-delusion is called re-enlightenment.
(Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche: As It Is, vol. 2, p. 67)

Malcolm wrote:
First of all, Tulku Urgyen never spoke English in his life.

When translators translate things in this way, they cause decades of confusion.

There is no such thing as "re-enlightenment", not in Dzogchen, and not in any other Buddhist school.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
I like how this conversation has turned. If Buddhists won't confront gender issues, who will?


Malcolm wrote:
It is not a gender issue. it is a transmission issue. Completely different issues.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Is the 'e.coli' epidemic a gNyan disease caused by Spirits?
Content:
Caz said:
Apparently it was a Bean Sprout.


Malcolm wrote:
Maybe, now it seems to be a massive conspiracy aimed at organic agriculture.

But, still this kind of outbreak is definitely provocation related.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Astus said:
In other words...

Malcolm wrote:
There is no term or concept in Dzogchen as being "re-enlightened". Does not exist and does not make sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
dzoki said:
I think there is no problem with reintroducng bikshuni lineage. Because in the time of Buddha for certain time there were no bikshunis, so the first group of bikshunis had to be ordained without any bikshunis present. I imagine two posibilities:

1. Reinstate vows based on the example of Buddha, that is some realised monk will simply give the vows to the bikshuni apsirant the same way Buddha gave them to the first bikshunis.

2.Some realised shikshamana would receive this vows in a vision.

Of course there is a problem with that how such ordinations would be accepted by both ordained and lay public.

Malcolm wrote:
won't happen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 4:55 AM
Title: Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat
Content:



heart said:
Yes, that's him.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
He is back in Nepal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat
Content:
pemachophel said:
So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again.

Thanks

heart said:
Ask Yeshe Dorje, I think he mentioned to me once that ChNN brought a Terma to Chatral Rinpoche for verification. I might be wrong but that is what I recall.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
ChNN verifies his own terma. You can read the account of how he verified Mandarava for example, in his account of the teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 4:24 AM
Title: Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat
Content:
pemachophel said:
So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again.


Namdrol said:
Tell them to mind their own f^&%ing business.

N

dzoki said:
Well that wouldn´t be a very polite answer to your lama.


Malcolm wrote:
Well, it is not a very goddamn polite question.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:


Namdrol said:
Cannot revive vows since the lineage is dead.

Could only decide to adopt Dharmaguptaka lineage. This means that monks from Thervada and Mulasarvastivada would have to reordain.

N

pueraeternus said:
Ah well, that would indeed be impossible.

Malcolm wrote:
This is why there is a bit of a difficulty.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 3:18 AM
Title: Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat
Content:
pemachophel said:
So that I can better counter the arguments of potential critics, can you tell me what Lama(s) has/have verified ChNNR's terma? This very conversation came up not even two weeks ago with another Lama. Frankly, I was at a loss as to what to say. I would prefer not to be caught in the same situation again.


Malcolm wrote:
Tell them to mind their own f^&%ing business.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 2:56 AM
Title: Re: Gut Flora
Content:
BuddhistPariah said:
Lately I've come to the conclusion that many of my health problems are coming in part  from a weak intestine, very probably from a weak intestine flora.

I have been looking on internet and the most interesting article for me is this one:
http://www.gutsense.org/gutsense/flora.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's why I am tempted to buy the book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiber-Menace-ebook/dp/B004J8HVV0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&m=A3TVV12T0I6NSM&qid=1307385858&sr=1-1 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


But I am also open to opinions and suggestions coming from you.

Thanks.


Malcolm wrote:
You should do the colorado cleanse.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
pueraeternus said:
Thanks Namdrol. Still can't see how the technicalities of one ordination could hinder practice of another lineage's praxis, but I understand if it's too technical to go into details here.

Namdrol said:
It does not.

It just means that ordination rites are kept separate i.e. the method of ordination of Thervada is different than that of Mulasarvastivada. So for example, since the vows are different, different monks in different lineages cannot recite posadha with one another.

N

pueraeternus said:
Earlier you mentioned that the vinayadharas could consolidate the lineages. In this case, could the re-established bhikshunis decide to "consolidate" their lineages to exactly fit those of the lineage they want affiliation with? For example, the Dharmagupta nuns in the Theravadin countries - could the most senior amongst them decide to "consolidate" or fold themselves into the same Bhikkhuni vows that the old Theravadin nuns kept? Since the Vinayadharas appear to have the ability to change the vows according to consensus, would this be a viable method? In any case, isn't this how the various sects grew out of each other? They just changed their ordination procedures to their liking.


Malcolm wrote:
Cannot revive vows since the lineage is dead.

Could only decide to adopt Dharmaguptaka lineage. This means that monks from Thervada and Mulasarvastivada would have to reordain.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:


gregkavarnos said:
The Buddha was not a "Buddhist" ...

Malcolm wrote:
Sure he was, since he, by his own admission, was following the path blazed by past buddhas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, June 7th, 2011 at 1:29 AM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
pueraeternus said:
Thanks Namdrol. Still can't see how the technicalities of one ordination could hinder practice of another lineage's praxis, but I understand if it's too technical to go into details here.

Malcolm wrote:
It does not.

It just means that ordination rites are kept separate i.e. the method of ordination of Thervada is different than that of Mulasarvastivada. So for example, since the vows are different, different monks in different lineages cannot recite posadha with one another.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 6th, 2011 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
It would fall into the wrong view of clinging to rites and rituals as a source of liberation.  I believe that you might admit that we see this amongst Buddhists quite often.


Malcolm wrote:
Clinging to rites and rituals is a criticism of Vedic practice and certain kinds of acetic practices like standing on one leg for whole life.

It does not refer to Vinaya.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 6th, 2011 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
Namdrol said:
It has to do with the way the different ways different schools conduct rites of ordination. They cannot be mixed.

N

pueraeternus said:
Could you quote just a brief example? Just trying to understand the various reasonings from different angles.

Malcolm wrote:
I mean that procedures and so on for each of the ordination lineages is different. They could only be integrated is all of the Vinayadharas decided to consolidate the three remaining ordination lineages. And that won't happen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 6th, 2011 at 10:59 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:


David N. Snyder said:
A recent example is over the bhikkhuni issue in Theravada and the bhikkshuni issue in Tibetan Buddhism. For some, it has been felt that the female nun lineage cannot be reinstated since there are no female nuns to ordain the new novices. But this is mistaken when considering that the Dharmaguptaka line has remained unbroken and nuns from that lineage can be used (and in fact have been used and today there are over 1,000 Theravada and Tibetan nuns). But some of the more literal interpreters

Namdrol said:
Well, they are still Dharmaguptaka nuns. You cannot mix monastic ordination lineages.

pueraeternus said:
What is the reason for not mixing the ordination lineages? Would a Dharmagupta nun be hindered in practicing Mahaviharin praxis? Also, would non-Mulasarvastivadin nuns be prevented from practicing Mahayana/Vajrayana?

Malcolm wrote:
It has to do with the way the different ways different schools conduct rites of ordination. They cannot be mixed.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 6th, 2011 at 9:44 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
I believe that the term "fundamentalism" has come to mean something different in our society (though it includes the definition you have offered) and that is a tenacious grasping to ones tenents or system of belief as the only valid form of truth and a denigration of all other belief systems, in which case I believe that I have met (and continue to meet) a number of Buddhist fundamentalists.

Malcolm wrote:
By that token then, you would assert the Buddha was a "fundamentalist" since he was clear there was no liberation at all outside of his dharma and vinaya.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 6th, 2011 at 7:46 PM
Title: Re: Buddhist fundamentalists?
Content:


David N. Snyder said:
A recent example is over the bhikkhuni issue in Theravada and the bhikkshuni issue in Tibetan Buddhism. For some, it has been felt that the female nun lineage cannot be reinstated since there are no female nuns to ordain the new novices. But this is mistaken when considering that the Dharmaguptaka line has remained unbroken and nuns from that lineage can be used (and in fact have been used and today there are over 1,000 Theravada and Tibetan nuns). But some of the more literal interpreters

Malcolm wrote:
Well, they are still Dharmaguptaka nuns. You cannot mix monastic ordination lineages.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 6th, 2011 at 4:04 AM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:
adinatha said:
But the way they actually are is the arteries beating out and down are on the right, the veins returning up are on the left and the spine with movements of mind going up and down is in the middle. (perhaps I have these flipped but the point is the same). But I can see how with respect to Togal, there is the "channels others don't know about," the winds gathering in the heart and all that...

Malcolm wrote:
Whatever you may like to think, but that is not how it is in fact, at least not from viewpoint of Tibetan medicine, etc.

The way it is arranged is that the aorta, etc, is the main avadhuti, the vena cava, etc.  the rasana, and the spinal column, etc.  is the lalana. The reason why it must be so is that lower end of the lalana and rasana is the urethra, and the lower end of the avadhuti is the rectum according to Kalacakra. Anyway, these things are not so important in Dzogchen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 6th, 2011 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:


adinatha said:
But the bilateral symmetry is not just a visualization the systems are physical situated as I described.

Malcolm wrote:
It is well understood, at least in Tibetan medicine (which is based in Dzogchen) that the three channels do not exist in the in the way in which they are visualized, which has lead the famed doctor, Zurkhar to state "All channels of air (i.e. beating channels, arteries) are the avadhuti, all channels of blood are rasana, and all channels of water (nerves, etc.) are the lalana." This statement is in part based on the Karmapa III's zab mo nang don.

Some westerners think the central channel is the spinal column, but it is not, in general considered to be that. The spinal column, the bones, etc., all develop from the white substance of the father. The spinal column and the brain is considered part of the lalana system in general Vajrayāna.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, June 6th, 2011 at 12:25 AM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:
Namdrol said:
In human body it is about bilateral symmetry, only when visualized. But in Ati, there is no visualization of these channels.

Spinal column and nerves develop from father white element, hence they belong to the lalana system.  Venous belongs to rasana system. Arterial belongs to Avadhuti system. This is more or less how it is understood in Tibetan medicine

However, there are different ways of explaining avadhuti, outer, inner secret, unique to certain Dzogchen systems.

OTOH, this is not so important -- these channels are only explained in order to differentiate the kati from them and explain that it is not a blood channel or lymphatic channel. Also the element of the kati is fire in Dzogchen, unlike other three which are considered earth (lalana), water (rasana) and air (avadhuti). Confusing, no? Also in some Dogchen texts, lalana is red, rasana is white, so even more confusing.

N

adinatha said:
Element kati is fire was surprising at first when I read it just now. Then I remembered someone explaining to me a Togal practitioner has to be careful, because the head can overheat, leading to injury. Which also kind of corresponds to why there is a brief Tummo instruction in Yeshe Lama. Perhaps acclimatizing the body to higher heat will condition it and therefore help to prevent this problem of overheating in the head and eyes.

But the bilateral symmetry is not just a visualization the systems are physical situated as I described.

Malcolm wrote:
You have to understand, there is a kind of bile in the eyes called alocaka pita -- this is the composed of the fire element. If you put to much heat in the eyes, it dries out the moist tissue and damages one's eyesight. Actually, it is important to use special eyedrops regularly to induce tearing to protect the eyes because the alocaka pita itself can dry out the eyes.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:


adinatha said:
Tibetan yogis were pretty good at anatomy (better than Indian yogis, actually), but not perfect -- so yes, Vagus nerve connects to the so called "precious heart" (tsitta rinpoche, in which is located the anahata bindu) from the brain , the basis for the visions.

N
I'm sort of trippin' out about this stuff right now... very cool.

With regard to the colors. I was just noticing that perhaps the Bonpos have it right: Red-fire, blue-water, yellow-earth, green-air, and white (clear)-space.

This schema just seem to correspond more accurately to space... What do you think?

Malcolm wrote:
I think it is a little arbitray, I perfer space as blue because of sky. Water as white because of limpidity of water.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:


adinatha said:
So then what goes down the sides of the neck and into the heart? I see vagus and phrenic nerves. Vagus powers the heart; phrenic the diaphragm.


Namdrol said:
Optic nerve connects directly into the brain. The way it is described is that this channel is in the central channel. it goes up into the brain and then branches out to the eyes.

Tibetan yogis were pretty good at anatomy (better than Indian yogis, actually), but not perfect -- so yes, Vagus nerve connects to the so called "precious heart" (tsitta rinpoche, in which is located the anahata bindu) from the brain , the basis for the visions.

N

adinatha said:
Well vagus is attached to the cranial nerve nucleus along with the optic, and the phrenic is not. But the phrenic and vagus seem to work together with regard to cardio-pulmonary motor function. So there may be a combination of function described here.

You've said before that the central channel is the arterial system, and the side channels are the venal system and spinal cord. Is this a Dzogchen special description?

Just from looking at them; it appears right and left channels are venal and arterial systems respectively; central channel would be the spinal cord. This would account for the interaction with the optic, vagus and phrenic nerves in the function of Ati yoga sadhana.


Malcolm wrote:
In human body it is about bilateral symmetry, only when visualized. But in Ati, there is no visualization of these channels.

Spinal column and nerves develop from father white element, hence they belong to the lalana system.  Venous belongs to rasana system. Arterial belongs to Avadhuti system. This is more or less how it is understood in Tibetan medicine

However, there are different ways of explaining avadhuti, outer, inner secret, unique to certain Dzogchen systems.

OTOH, this is not so important -- these channels are only explained in order to differentiate the kati from them and explain that it is not a blood channel or lymphatic channel. Also the element of the kati is fire in Dzogchen, unlike other three which are considered earth (lalana), water (rasana) and air (avadhuti). Confusing, no? Also in some Dogchen texts, lalana is red, rasana is white, so even more confusing.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:


adinatha said:
So then what goes down the sides of the neck and into the heart? I see vagus and phrenic nerves. Vagus powers the heart; phrenic the diaphragm.


Malcolm wrote:
Optic nerve connects directly into the brain. The way it is described is that this channel is in the central channel. it goes up into the brain and then branches out to the eyes.

Tibetan yogis were pretty good at anatomy (better than Indian yogis, actually), but not perfect -- so yes, Vagus nerve connects to the so called "precious heart" (tsitta rinpoche, in which is located the anahata bindu) from the brain , the basis for the visions.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 10:48 PM
Title: Re: "Everything is perfect"
Content:
catmoon said:
Everything is perfect?

How do we square that with the teachings that samsara is impermanent, unsatisfactory and of the nature of suffering? Isn't it the goal of every Buddhist to leave this unsatisfactory situation, and take as many sentient beings with them as they can?


Malcolm wrote:
Samsara arise from ignorance. Ignorance is not perfect. Remove ignorance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 10:46 PM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:
Namdrol said:
You misread -- it is channel that is not filled with blood or lymph. The reason it is called "a white silk thread" is because it is a nerve. This is common euphemism for nerves.

N

adinatha said:
Thank you for that clarification. Which nerve are we talking about then? Vagus?


Malcolm wrote:
Altogether, the optical housing and the optical nerve.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
TMingyur said:
Until then everything is speculation.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so, since you accept already the testimony of the Buddha as a pramana, as you state above. Based on this we can develop an inference. This gives us more confidence in the Buddha's teaching of rebirth. This leads to the development of the five faculties, five of the eight indriyas of nirvana, etc. Inferential pramana is extremely important in Buddha's teachings.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 9:37 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
TMingyur said:
To validly infer rebirth therefore would have as prerequisite the posibility to directly perceive re-birth at some places and times. But what can be directly perceived is just birth, but not re-birth.
So putting the "homogenity and material" stuff aside according to Dharmkirti's own logic inference of rebirth is utterly impossible.

kind regards


Malcolm wrote:
Nonsense, even commoners can directly perceive their own past lives and those of others. Proof of this can be found in Buddha's own liberation where he intuited the truth of dependent origination prior to full awakening by remembering his past lives.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 9:36 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
TMingyur said:
Side note to Dharmakirti:

Basis of valid cognition is direct perception. Even inference may be valid only if an instance ("particular") of the inferred ("universal" or "generality character") can be directly perceived at other times and/or in other places.

Malcolm wrote:
An inference is based in a valid pratyakaska, but not all pramanas are pratyakshas. You are arguing for validity of rebirth based solely on the third, a Buddha's testimony. I am asserting rebirth can be logically inferred for oneself, based on Dharmakirti's reasoning set forth in the Pramanasiddhi chapter of the Pramanvarttikas.

The basis for this inference is the logical exclusion of rūpa as the cause of citta and caittas. Once one has ruled out a material cause for the mind, one must accept rebirth or accept causeless arising for the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 8:04 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
TMingyur said:
Now that is a definition never given before. Obviously Namdrol has take the term "material" for granted.

Malcolm wrote:
I use the Buddha's definition: rūpa i.e. the four mahābhutanis -- all states of matter are included . Nāma refers to all mental phenomena.

This split is basic to Buddha's phenomenolgy, and is basic to India pre-Buddhist phenomenology as well.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 7:55 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
TMingyur said:
Why? Because there is neither valid reason for "homogenity" nor valid reason for "non-homogenity" of cause and effect.


Malcolm wrote:
Of course there is a valid reason i.e. observation. Rice seeds produce rice sprout and not wheat. Wheat seeds produce wheat sprouts and not rice.

It is foolish to suppose, based in observation, that causal homogeneity is unreasonable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 7:43 PM
Title: Re: How does pleasure arise?
Content:


Namdrol said:
The sensations of pleasure and pain from all of these activities are solely the ripening of karma and nothing else.

Karma of course begins with intention, but it ripens on both mind and body.

N

xabir said:
Interesting... but how do you explain this:


"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma — (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

Malcolm wrote:
Quite simple really -- the body you appropriate at birth has the three humors, it is born in certain climate that has changes, one's conduct is definitely karma, injuries, etc., all of these things are ulimately produced by and a result of karma.

So no contradiction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 7:40 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:




TMingyur said:
...there is no valid inference for rebirth...

Malcolm wrote:
There is certainly a valid inference for rebirth.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 12:25 PM
Title: Re: What is the TM view of the center channel?
Content:
Enochian said:
This doesn't make sense at all in the light of Dzogchen's crystal channels.


Namdrol said:
Of course it does. But I am not going to discuss that here more than to say this kind of anatomy is wrapped in metaphor. When one has studied Tibetan medicine, many things become obvious that seem mysterious and mystical in Dzogchen.

Here is a hint "white silk thread" is common Tibetan medical term for nerve fibers in the body, for example, that run from the brain to all the internal organs, etc.

But in reality, it is all about physical structures in the body and how to manipulate them.

adinatha said:
The texts on crystal kati say it is primordially pure, not polluted by red or white. I thought this indicated it was not a nerve or a blood vessel, but something else, similar to the eye faculty.

Malcolm wrote:
You misread -- it is channel that is not filled with blood or lymph. The reason it is called "a white silk thread" is because it is a nerve. This is common euphemism for nerves.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 12:22 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
TMingyur said:
If gamma-ray radioactivity is considered "material". Or visual rays like visual light are considered "material".

Malcolm wrote:
Light has mass.







TMingyur said:
So you admit that your reasoning is based on an arbitrary assumptions that actually is not different from the alleged "inference". Circular reasoning.

Malcolm wrote:
I assume you are not a stupid person and are capable of filling in the blanks. Perhaps I have overestimated your intelligence.


TMingyur said:
Yes, rebirth can be "inferred" if one assumes that
1. there is rebirth

Malcolm wrote:
Non sequitor.

TMingyur said:
2. the supporting factor is what is called and known as "consciousness"

Malcolm wrote:
You deny you are conscious?

TMingyur said:
3. rebirth is based on a continuity of what is called and known as "consciousness"

Malcolm wrote:
You deny your consciousness has continuity?

TMingyur said:
4. that the arbitrary categorization of "material" and "non-material" is a valid one

Malcolm wrote:
You can question Buddha's differentiation between matter and mind if you choose.

TMingyur said:
5. based on 4 that "homogeneity between causes and effects" is required.

Malcolm wrote:
If you think that wheat can come from apple seeds, then you gave a problem.

TMingyur said:
But I reject dishonest reasoning which discredits reasoning and which also dicredits Buddhism if conducted in the context of Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
You have not shown Dharmakirti's logic is invalid. You merely claim it be so.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, June 5th, 2011 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: Agar 35 - strongest stress reliever?
Content:
The Ticking Man said:
I have to take warfarin (coumadin) everyday to prevent blood clots due to my mechanical heart valve.  I am interested in taking something like Agar-35 for occasional anxiety, will Agar-35 interact with my warfarin?  Besides taking warfarin due to my mechanical heart valve, I am in good health and take no other medications.

Also, where would be the best place to purchase Agar-35 or something similar to it online ?

Thank you in advance for your help.


Malcolm wrote:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406896_2 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You would be better off receiving massages for your anxiety on a regular basis, IMO.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Recognition comes before knowing. I.e., if you don't recognize, you don't know.

N[/quote]


Lets say the teacher introduces you ,you cant see it and then you go and practice and then you see it.
That to me is identification of something which was explained to you but not seen at that moment.Once you identify in your experience what the teacher said then the knowing comes.

once you know it then you can recognize it over and over again...[/quote]


When you are introduced, then you recognize, then you know. Game over.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


TMingyur said:
But rebirth neither can be validly proven nor validly disproven. Obviously this causes discontent in the minds of some so that they are willing to even discredit logic.


Malcolm wrote:
Rebirth can be inferred, and inference is a type of pramana. The only people who reject inference as a pramana are materialists and some modern so called "Buddhists" who have a hard time giving up their materialist views.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
TMingyur said:
[

Matter can be transformed into non-material energy. Why shouldn't it be possible that matter is transformed into consciousness?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such thing as "non-material" energy.



Namdrol said:
The first moment of mind in this life therefore must be dependent on a previous moment of mind from the last life.

Ergo, it is proven through inference that rebith is a valid teaching.
Now that's a logic that is based on presuppositions that beg the question themselves.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is the point. Either one assumes mind has a material cause or not. If not, rebirth is proven.

If so, rebirth is disproven.

It is very simple.

N



Kind regards[/quote]


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


kirtu said:
Therefore monotheism does not inevitably lead to warfare and genocide, even through any faith can be corrupted under the right circumstances.

As for war and genocide, please remind us of the Sakya-Drikung war, Mongolian troops traipsing through Tibet *after* their taming began, and so forth.  Clearly the followers of Shakyamuni (at least  some who profess to follow his teachings) are not immune to instigating warfare.

Malcolm wrote:
Monotheism was born of war and genocide; perpetuates war and genocide, and ends in war and genocide.

Christian monotheism was tempered by accommodation with Pagan cults; but not in its protestant form.

The history of monotheism is the history of the destruction of anything in its path. This is irrefutable. All those minor Christian sects you mention are irrelevant, eddies in the river of destruction monotheisms have wrecked upon human history. Monotheism is inherently imperialistic. If you don't see it, you just don't see it. I don't really have a need to convince you.

During the present day, Islam is the strongest form of monotheism -- it therefore the most dangerous; seconded only by Christian fundamentalism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Agar 35 - strongest stress reliever?
Content:
padma norbu said:
I got 2 different pills a while back and just started taking them. "Happiness of Mind" is one pill (for daytime) and Agar-35 is the other pill (for night time).

I had to leave work early due to stress today and decided to take some Agar-35 when I got home. It seemed to calm me down before I even finished the cup. So, now I guess I am a real believer. What I want to know is if this is the strongest stress-reliever in Tibetan medicine. It seems to be more popular than "Happiness of Mind" because I can find a lot of places online that sell Agar-35. I'd like to have the strongest stuff possible to keep at work so that maybe next time I don't have to go home early. It would also be grand if there was something I didn't have to soak in boiling water for 15 minutes and then scoop out and pulverize in a mortar and pestle and then scrape back in, mix up and end up with a very dirty-looking mouth, since this isn't super convenient in an office environment... but, if it's all there is (as opposed to teas or pills you swallow), then it'll do.


Malcolm wrote:
"Strongest" is not how you approach Tibetan herbs. You approach herbs, any herbs, based on your humoral imbalance and what is appropriate for that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: Jamgon Kongtrul's opinion
Content:
sherabpa said:
Here is a retranslation of a passage from the biography of Jamgon Kongtrul (p.86) in which he laments the way in which people in his time viewed and regarded other traditions.  The original translation does not quite make sense.

"These days, even among famous lamas and teachers, there are not many who have a pure regard for the teachings of the sage in general, apart from their own traditions and a few scriptures. There are few who have been willing to study with everyone, whether exhalted or lowly, and there is little real knowledge of the dharma. Especially in these later times there are a great many who, while they themselves are not perfectly upright and do not have a spiritual outlook, talk like arrogant bullies about whether a particular teaching tradition is any good or whether a lineage is pure. Never mind other traditions; they are full of qualms and doubts about the basics of their own tradition, like the proverbial one-eyed yak who startles himself."


Malcolm wrote:
You seem really worried about other people's traditions.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Namdrol said:
You presented  PR as a definitive authority. He is not. The only definitive authority in Dzogchen is one's own guru.
N

sherabpa said:
Is that a particularity of dzogchen or does it apply to dharma in general?  Because in general, my understanding of authority in dharma is that it derives from scriptures and reasoning.


Malcolm wrote:
Not in Vajrayāna. In Vajrayāna, the authority is one's guru.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 11:51 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
mudra said:
but then you ended that paragraph with Islam never went through an Enlightenment.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. It didn't.


mudra said:
You forget, for Moslems, all non-Moslems are automatically "others". You would do well never to forget this.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, for them, we Buddhists are kaffirs.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 11:11 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


mudra said:
You say I made a cheap emotional appeal when I asked if my background made me tainted - actually I was referring back to the beginnings of this tangent when it was discussed how the overwhelming numbers of MUSLIMs (not the Qur'an) in Europe posed some kind of threat. I spoke from my personal experience.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, what was suggested was that the increasing immigration of Muslims into Europe made Europeans feel threatened, thus leading to the present xenophobic reactions of some Europeans that reminds some other Europeans of the fascist era.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 10:49 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


kirtu said:
Methinks your suspicions re: monotheism has run away with you.  Monotheism is a perfectly valid and valuable medicine when not used by people intoxicate with power lust.

Malcolm wrote:
Monotheism inevitably leads to warfare and genocide.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, June 4th, 2011 at 4:11 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


kirtu said:
But don't you think that these claims of hegemony are serious exaggerations?   After all,  Christianity is no longer trying to take over the world.

Malcolm wrote:
Been to the bible belt lately? The imperial ambitions of Bush Admin. was intimately tied to a Fundamentalist read of history.

kirtu said:
Why do you think that Islam in general has that as a serious goal?

Malcolm wrote:
Empire is a meme built in all Abrahamic religions. All it needs a little water, and sunlight, and it comes right out.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
On the other hand, single payer in VT is awesome. The insurance companies have long avoided VT because VT insisted years ago they could not discriminate on a whole list of criteria. So very few companies will do business in VT -- proving these companies are only interested in ripping people off.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: single taste of freedom
Content:
Will said:
One of the flaws (fatal it could be) in the USA republic is that it requires an active, informed citizenry.  When only 50% (maybe less) of voting age people vote and understanding of the basics of American history & government is feeble (and getting more so), then we get what we deserve.  Indifference & ignorance rule; (not to mention our old friends greed & anger.)

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but I don't agree with this pov. I vote, and every time either the person I voted for turned out to be a fraud or was cheated out of office.

So, I am educated and informed and has decided that governments in general, in this day and age, are not good for democracy.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 8:02 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
sherabpa said:
No one was angry because of Patrul Rinpoche's point of view. Some people might have been annoyed because of how you presented Patrul Rinpoche POV.
Please can you explain the distinction?  I'm not aware I added to or subtracted from Paltrul Rinpoche's advice.  On the whole I merely quoted him.

However I understand this topic is sensitive, and I don't want to be accused of attacking anyone and nor do I intend to violate the rules of the forum, so if there is any danger of that please just let me know and I will behave accordingly.  I would like to understand the acceptable parameters of debate here.


Malcolm wrote:
You presented  PR as a definitive authority. He is not. The only definitive authority in Dzogchen is one's own guru.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 9:22 AM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
I make no statement on you.

I plainly don't know you at all, not enough certainly to make judgements on your personal perspectives.

YOur statement in the context it is found can certainly be read as I read it. I explain and do attest to that.

This is exactly, without qualification a tea bagger statement..."..." Anyway, what we can agree on is that the US govt. can screw up any good idea. Our entire government is completely incompetent on the federal level.

Any tea bagger would be quite OK with that statement. NOt just OK fervently support it.
You qualify it now...good. Then I do agree...that is a qualifiable statement to which must be added this additional context displayed so it may not have unintended consequence of interpretation.


Malcolm wrote:
I have decided that federal govt has been kidnapped by aliens (corporations) and I no longer will support it in any way. Elections do not work, the whole electoral process is corrupted completely. It has become a total joke.

Politics in this country is a complete charade.

I voted for Obama, but he was replaced by a pod person.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 9:20 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Not to be able to rest in Trekchod is not (abiding in) the natural State, with the result no visions.

Namdrol said:
Visions can arise even without tregchö. This is why tregchö is so important for severing attachment.

N

kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,

Yes without the base Trekchod is no visions possible.
This because the appearing of visions is due to emptintiness aspect which is inseparable connected to the visions.
People who would pratcice only Trekchod would disppear without leaving a trace. Here is the emptineess aspect seen whereas i thought in the Thodgal is the clearness aspect like lights seen..... So i try to say that they are not as a "not union" seen Trekchod and Thodgal and so without Thodgal no visions.

People who dwell in the mood of dualistic things like attachment should return to the kordo Rushens and Semdzens etc. and set up here more herwith their base more than used as Trekchod as a remedie against attachment etc. 

Best wishes
KY

Malcolm wrote:
Tregchod is not a remedy against attachment. Tregcho is complete freedom from all attachments.

But if one is working with for example second vision and one loses one mindfulness and becomes attached to visions, this is a big problem, and it does happen.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 9:14 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
Why do you think the Dalai-lama is wrong on this issue?


Namdrol said:
HHDL is about as expert on Islam as Dechen is by your standards outlined above. You just happen to like what he says.

N

tobes said:
Is Dechan going to Harvard to meet with top scholars of Islam? Having conversations about Islamic jurisprudence?

No?

Then there is a pretty manifest difference in terms of knowledge.

This may be more speculative, but I would say in terms of insight as well.


Malcolm wrote:
Nothing that Dechen cannot also read.

I have read many books about Islam. Virtually all sympathetic or written by scholars fluent in Arabic. I have many friends who are ex-Muslims, Iranian and otherwise.

Their attitude about Islam is much different than yours. They regard the religion of their birth with horror.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 9:06 AM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
I agree with all those statements, singularly considered... however this is your initial point..." Anyway, what we can agree on is that the US govt. can screw up any good idea. Our entire government is completely incompetent on the federal level.

The US government at the present time is a homogination of past effect and present cause. Social security veterns affairs and others are well functioning well run programs. It is not the government that is screwing up good ideas nor is the entire government incompetant.
That is confusing present intent and partial result with completly fullfilling intention and result.

MOre aptly it would be called corporate influence on governmental affairs to a negative effect result of means of governmental operations and capacity.

Identifying it in the preceeding manner does infer and continue the pretense of government being innately inefficient and inept.
Governments are neither necessarily by design intention nor result.

The innateness of present government inefficiency is a self induced one. YOur statement does not infer any of that initially.

Malcolm wrote:
Inefficient does not mean inept that is not an equation I drew. You inferred incorrectly from my statement, assuming that I was coming from a teabagger fox "news" perspective.

I am not.

I am a deep ecologist/left biocentrist. A hippy tree hugger.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 9:01 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
Why do you think the Dalai-lama is wrong on this issue?


Malcolm wrote:
HHDL is about as expert on Islam as Dechen is by your standards outlined above. You just happen to like what he says.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 8:58 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Not to be able to rest in Trekchod is not (abiding in) the natural State, with the result no visions.

Malcolm wrote:
Visions can arise even without tregchö. This is why tregchö is so important for severing attachment.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 8:51 AM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
Well I still disagree..

if you want government to be perceived as inefficient and inadequate you create the mechanisms where as it fulfills your prophecy.
A katrina happens you make FEMA such a corrupted organization filled with political appointments it can not serve in the least to fill its function.
YOu dessimate a SEC so it cannot for  a moment stop a inexorable bend of the corporate community to corruption in things financial.
.

Malcolm wrote:
You are proving my point.

Our government is corrupt. Not the least of which is because the "two" party system is a complete joke. Only wealthy people can get elected, etc.

So, I turn my back on the feds. They can't help anyone. You wait, it is only a matter of time before they dismantle Social Security, etc.

Big Gvt. is in cahoots with Big Business. It is not like it was in the 40's and 50's.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 8:31 AM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:


ronnewmexico said:
So support this thing, this notion  of government inefficiency at your peril. ]

Malcolm wrote:
You don't understand my POV.

Govt. Inefficiency is fine. It was designed into the our system of govt on purpose.

But at this point our govt. has gotten way out of control, patriot act, this act that act, tax laws no one can understand that change every year and consistently favor the wealthy and corporate interests., etc.

Defense budgets that are way out of control, etc.

The whole edifice is built on years of incompetence.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 7:40 AM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
ChNN also uses example of tuning in a radio or a TV to proper station.

Astus said:
And if we use that example it's the radiowave I don't really see.


Malcolm wrote:
You have to be tuned to the right channel.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 7:38 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Namdrol wrote:
Teaching treghcho and thogal as separate is a later expedient. It was not taught that way in the beginning.
Tashi delek,

Wat would be the advantage of teaching Trekchod and Thodgal as separate or sequential?

Best wishes
KY


Malcolm wrote:
It is felt that for some people, there will be too  much attachment to appearances unless they are very stable in tregcho first.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 6:41 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Adhinatha wrote:
This part is weird, because it seems like seeing the basis in Tregcho is the path of seeing and the lights in the first appearance would be the path of meditation.
Tashi delek,
The meditation in Dzogchen is to be in the Natural State, which is united with Thodgal. That is the base to experience the first Lamp with its related Visions.
I guess that would be the right following order of Trekchod and Thodgal. I know that some schools teach Trekchod and Thodgal as separate, but i did learn this as united in the Bon Dzogchen. This means that within the abiding of the Natural State the Visions are self emanated and are in that way inter related.

Best wishes
KY

Malcolm wrote:
Teaching treghcho and thogal as separate is a later expedient. It was not taught that way in the beginning.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 6:40 AM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
My statement is not that corporations want or do not want to privitize.....some things they do and some they do not. As general ideology they want to privatize all that is not defense.

My statement is that I find things federally not incompetant. To my opinion that is corpratese, indoctrination by the media interests to serve corporate interest, that way of thinking. I see this overtly and covertly all the time.

A example of a finely administered program or two is...the veterns adminstration and social security.   Social security provides the exact amount of monies to the right peoples very many million times a month with hardly a error year after year. Incompetant....no way under the sun.
Media has us think government is incompetant. For agenda


Malcolm wrote:
Programs are one thing -- but when I say government, I means the lunatics in charge of the asylum on capital hill. I mean that in a completely bipartisan way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 6:30 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:


adinatha said:
This part is weird, because it seems like seeing the basis in Tregcho is the path of seeing and the lights in the first appearance would be the path of meditation. I'm not versed in the traditional breakdown of the four appearances and the five paths, but I've heard it said the correspondence is loose, because Togal/Yangti is so fast. No?

Malcolm wrote:
The first vision resembles the path of seeing because one is seeing "dharmata" directly. It is actually heat on the path of application because at this stage one's understanding of emptiness is still inferential, according to Khenpo Ngawang Palzang, Chatral Rinpoche's guru.

One reason it is considered "like" the path of seeing, etc. is that when one is engaging in the first two visions, one's course obscurations dissolve. In common mahayana and vajrayana this only happens after one realizes the actual path of seeing. This is a special feature of togal.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


catmoon said:
Ok fine. Nonetheless there must have been a moment when the pickup truck came into existence. That first moment of existence must have had a cause. By the law of similar causes, the cause in question must have been a pickup truck, not a daffodil. Therefore the pickup truck had a prior existence, a previous life.

Malcolm wrote:
In reality "pickup truck is, like "catmoon", a designation. Pickup truck designates as an assemblage of parts. Those parts are all based on serial process and continuity. The steel in a pickup truck cannot come from plastic, etc.

The difference between a pickup truck and a mind is that a mind is a single substance (dravya). You can assembly a pickup truck out of parts where there was no pickup truck before, only parts. Minds however, are not like that, they are naturally arising entities, not constructed entities. When we talk about "namdrol" or "catmoon" we tend to be referring to all five aggregates, not just the mind that we possess.

Our mental aggregate does not arise from our material aggregate because there is a difference of kind in terms of substance. A pickup truck will never give rise to a mind stream. WIthout our interference in metals and plastics, there would never be a pickup truck.

No one however created our mind, at least, not as far as anyone can tell. we can rule god out, evil demons ala Descartes, chance (since then a mind could arise from a pickup truck and daffodils from cobras), etc. Since our mind is not a fabricated entity (unlike a truck, but like a metal ore) it's causation and result is a pure result of its own natural processes. Since it has no beginning, so far as anyone can tell, it's past cause must be a moment of mind.

Now, you might feel that mind arises because of neural activity of the brain and nervous system. You can believe that if you like, but there is no proof for this. If you do not accept that mind has material causes, then it must have a mental cause.

According to the Buddhist logical model, a person who does not accept a material cause for the mind (and in ancient India there were many people who asserted physicalism) must accept that mind has a mental cause. Since another mind cannot be the cause of our own mind (for all kinds of reasons) the only possible remaining alternative is that a previous moment of mind lead to this moment of mind in a serial continuity which has no beginning.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
catmoon...that is the standard buddhist rational for rebirth.

catmoon said:
Sorry but I'm not buying any arguments from authority, nor am I interested in following lemmings off a cliff. Let's see some logic here.

Malcolm wrote:
you can figure it out for yourself. The principle is homogeneity between causes and effects.

It is very simple. Work it out on your own.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 4:46 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
Namdrol said:
It is based on the logical notion of homogeneity between causes and effects.

So yes, this instance of a pickup truck is based on a previous instance of a pickup truck and not a honda or a mind.

N

catmoon said:
So you believe that there is rebirth of pickup trucks? That perhaps a pickup truck might come back as a semitrailer if it is very good?

If not, why not?

Malcolm wrote:
I did not say I believed in the rebirth of pickup trucks.

What I said was that there is a serial continuity between the previous instance of a pickup truck and this instance. Pickup trucks do not have minds, since they are solely material entities i.e. non-sentient.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 4:35 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


catmoon said:
Even recalling past lives is not proof of rebirth. If you can somehow do a double blind experimental verification of what you recall, (preferably with the verification done by honest skeptics) that might constitute proof.

Namdrol said:
Rebith is proven through inference in the following way:

Mind has either a material cause or a non-material cause.

If mind has a material cause, one has to prove this, etc.

Buddhist reject that mind has a material cause, and assert it has a mental cause i.e. a previous moment of mind.

The first moment of mind in this life therefore must be dependent on a previous moment of mind from the last life.

Ergo, it is proven through inference that rebith is a valid teaching.

N

catmoon said:
I do not find this at all convincing, because the same line of reasoning can be applied to a pickup truck, ie

Buddhists reject that the truck has a mental cause, and assert that it has a material cause, i.e. a previous moment of truck

The first moment of the truck's existence must be dependent on a previous truck-existence

Ergo, it is proven through inference that rebirth of pickup trucks is a valid teaching.

Malcolm wrote:
It is based on the logical notion of homogeneity between causes and effects.

So yes, this instance of a pickup truck is based on a previous instance of a pickup truck and not a honda or a mind.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 4:33 AM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
IN fact if all in the purview of the federal government was privatized and run by corporate interest

Malcolm wrote:
Why would the corporations want to privatize everything? It is much better for them to externalize costs of doing business on taxpayers. They run things without having to be responsible. And the incompetent boobs in the house and senate let them get away with it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 4:22 AM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:


sherabpa said:
I am sorry to hear people behaved in that way.  It is a shame because the discussion was interesting. I must admit I was a little surprised when some members started getting quite angry as a result of mentioning Paltrul Rinpoche's views on ngondro practice.


Malcolm wrote:
No one was angry because of Patrul Rinpoche's point of view. Some people might have been annoyed because of how you presented Patrul Rinpoche POV.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


catmoon said:
Even recalling past lives is not proof of rebirth. If you can somehow do a double blind experimental verification of what you recall, (preferably with the verification done by honest skeptics) that might constitute proof.

Malcolm wrote:
Rebith is proven through inference in the following way:

Mind has either a material cause or a non-material cause.

If mind has a material cause, one has to prove this, etc.

Buddhist reject that mind has a material cause, and assert it has a mental cause i.e. a previous moment of mind.

The first moment of mind in this life therefore must be dependent on a previous moment of mind from the last life.

Ergo, it is proven through inference that rebith is a valid teaching.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 4:14 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


TMingyur said:
There is no valid inference of the truth of rebirth.

Malcolm wrote:
If course there is.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 4:10 AM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:
Will said:
Heruka: the amount of tyranny you tolerate, is equal to the amount of tyranny you get.
And when people are used to countless little cowerings before tyrannical officials, and those officials have nothing to fear from plain folks, then real intolerable tyranny will begin.


Malcolm wrote:
You mean that way it has been since Kaiser introducedthe concept of private HMO's to america?

Anyway, what we can agree on is that the US govt. can screw up any good idea. Our entire government is completely incompetent on the federal level.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 4:09 AM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:
Heruka said:
John D. Rockefeller IV wants it, obama presents it.

Why is that so hard to understand?

ive done my research....the insurance companies on the bailout government doll, wrote the bill.
lol.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, to protect their profits. SO therefore,there is no single payer bill.

But VT has passed a mandate to put single payer into practice. The HMO's are freaking out at this. This is not what they want. Managed care is a total joke. Anyway, millions of americans already get single payer health care -- they just has to just join the US armed forces.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 3:45 AM
Title: Re: Rainbow Body Misconception
Content:
adinatha said:
I'm trying to understand you, Namdrol la, correctly here. Correct me if I don't have this right, please. Body of light is an inner realization where nothing changes in the physical body, right?

Malcolm wrote:
As I understand it, yes.



adinatha said:
One can achieve dzogchen's definition of samyaksambodhi by realization of the body of light, right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

adinatha said:
So one would have a physical body just like before, and one would have attained the non-abiding buddhahood of kadag chenpo in this body on this Earth. Is this right?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

adinatha said:
Then, the body of great transference or the body shrinking at death, for example, is the natural dissolution of the elements into the five wisdom lights; it is at this point when one, according to the texts, looks at the lights in one's hand and maintains a form, or one doesn't do that and the form is gone. Is this right?

Malcolm wrote:
Well, the elements are already in the form of the five lights of wisdom even now. The only difference is that we don't perceive their actual nature. Body of light is our perception of the elements reverting to wisdom light.


adinatha said:
Then what accounts for the omniscience?

Malcolm wrote:
The six abhijñās that develop naturally as one works through the four visions. The third vision corresponds with path of seeing in common mahayana.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 1:30 AM
Title: Re: lower back pain
Content:
alpha said:
it is in lower back ...yes...and it concentrates in the middle of the lower back...


Malcolm wrote:
Moxa, massage or acupucnture or a combination will help this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, June 3rd, 2011 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
Plugging it in makes it work. Transmission is like the plugging in a device. Here you are plugging in your continuum to the living continuum of realization which comes from Samantabhadra to you.

Astus said:
Very plastic metaphor, and lineage is central in Vajrayana, I understand that. I was looking for a different kind of explanation but I can accept that it is something that doesn't exist. Thanks for the help.


Malcolm wrote:
ChNN also uses example of tuning in a radio or a TV to proper station.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
You don't think what is relevant?

Astus said:
My personal relationship with Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
it is very relevant. In fact it is the key to the whole discussion.

You have not understood in fact what transmission means.

You can think of it like this. You have a device, it has a plug. If it is not plugged in, even though it has all potential to function it will not function.

Plugging it in makes it work. Transmission is like the plugging in a device. Here you are plugging in your continuum to the living continuum of realization which comes from Samantabhadra to you.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 10:58 PM
Title: Re: lower back pain
Content:
alpha said:
I  have no back injury...

The pain usually occurs when i bend in particular way and then  i get stuck .It is a very sharp pain .Is so sharp that i cannot stand straight and i usually let myself fall...I cannot really say with accuracy what sort of bending causes it...because it is a little different every time..it could be forward...on one side...etc..
And Is not related to physical work....heavy lifting...etc...


Malcolm wrote:
Is it in lower back?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 10:54 PM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:


Astus said:
I've participated in Dzogchen transmission both face to face and DC's webcast, but I don't think it is relevant.


Malcolm wrote:
You don't think what is relevant?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: lower back pain
Content:
alpha said:
About twice a year i experience severe lower back pain ,pain that it is so severe that i am imobilized in bed.When in bed there is no pain...

This pain shoots down the leg ,on the extremities and sometime on the front part of the legs..

When this happens i go and see an osteopath and that seems to fix it...They think its a mechanical problem and related to stress also..

I would like to know if there is a remedy from the tibetan medicine perspective for this problem and whether can be treated ?

Is this an energy imbalance, or spirit possession...i would be curios to know?

Thanks..


Malcolm wrote:
Do you have a lower back injury?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Pero said:
The teacher is not necessarily in that state all the time. So if you listen to a recording, who knows what the teacher is doing. Without the teacher there cannot be a direct transmission. I'm repeating myself but I'm not sure how to explain it otherwise to you.

Astus said:
OK, the teacher has to be in the state for the transmission. Why? What difference does it make from the perspective of the student who either gets it there or not, perhaps realises it months later without the presence of any teacher. Why is a teacher needed there? Is there no explanation? Just because?


Malcolm wrote:
Astus:

You are wasting everyone's time with this question.

Dzogchen is a Vajrayana system. The Guru is indispensable.

If you want transmission, you must get it from a Guru. Live.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
No, it is because I see very clearly that the religion contains a deep and systematic moral theory of virtue ethics, a political philosophy of community harmony and a fundamental soteriological message of **universal** peace.


Namdrol said:
Right, one peaceful, ethical, harmonious world under Islam.

No thanks.

N

gregkavarnos said:
Oh I dunno, one peaceful harmonious world under Sufism wouldn't be that bad!

Malcolm wrote:
Not into religious hegemony of any kind, including Buddhist religious hegemony.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
No, it is because I see very clearly that the religion contains a deep and systematic moral theory of virtue ethics, a political philosophy of community harmony and a fundamental soteriological message of **universal** peace.


Malcolm wrote:
Right, one peaceful, ethical, harmonious world under Islam.

No thanks.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 10:15 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
Absolutely I admit this.

The distinction between us, which I think is very profound, is that whilst I am attributing these rhetorical movements to perverted, extremist and very marginalised interpretations of the text, you have consistently claimed that these interpretations are central to the text and the religion itself.
:


Malcolm wrote:
That is because you are an apologist for a pernicious religion.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 10:14 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
You're murdering the very idea of history here....and, I might add, the logic of dependent origination.


Malcolm wrote:
Not at all -- I just don't subscribe to effete and ineffectual "nuanced" politically correct interpretations of Christian and Moslem history.

And history, as we know, is written by the conquerers.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 3:51 AM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
No, it just means that two people have to be in a process of communication with each other.

Astus said:
In response to this (phone call) I said that at the time of a webcast (or even in a live session) the audience listens to the teacher and does not talk to him/her, so there is no communication between two people but communication from one person to the others. Of course, there is a room later for a Q&A part.


Malcolm wrote:
That is communication between two people, a speaker and a listener.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
padma norbu said:
Nature of Mind to nature of Mind… There is reflection. Reflection means instantaneous sparks of awareness. It might last. It might not last. Mind to Mind transmission means that the nature of the teacher’s mind and the nature of the student’s mind are identical in that moment.[1] The noise produces the shock that creates the space in the mind for transmission to occur.

So someone said before that space is not a concern, but time is an issue and for that reason you can't learn from a recording. This is a mind-to-mind transmission, right? So, what if we compare it to telepathy (for kicks). If you accept the idea that someone can mentally "speak" to you, would you expect also that they could put that on tape for you to listen to later?

I know this isn't a brilliant point and has nothing to do with the three kayas and how transmission actually occurs, but if you think of it this way, it's not very hard to understand, imo.

[1] I got this from Aro website, which may or may not be suspect (I don't know), but this made sense to me.

Malcolm wrote:
IT's bullshit.

Mind transmission simply means that the student understands the point of master is making at the same time the master is in that state. They are in the same recognition or understanding. There is telepathic communication or anything like this.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
Who said that Dzogchen is not communicated through conventional means?

Astus said:
Webcast happens in a video format. If it must be live and can't happen through a record there must be some extra beyond conventional means. That's what I'm inquiring about, that non-conventional part.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it just means that two people have to be in a process of communication with each other.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 3:12 AM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Nangwa said:
How then can the Dzogchen transmission communicate something without conventional means? I know you said it's difficult to explain, but perhaps it's not impossible.

Malcolm wrote:
Who said that Dzogchen is not communicated through conventional means?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
Yes.

Astus said:
What?


Malcolm wrote:
What transmission means.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Astus said:
Is it something I'm not getting?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, June 2nd, 2011 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: Space and Dzogchen
Content:
Hayagriva said:
No one have something to say? I thought it was an interesting topic...


Malcolm wrote:
it is, that is why can't say much about it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 11:50 PM
Title: Re: Nyingma practices in Sarma lineages?
Content:
conebeckham said:
It is said that Marpa did not fail to recite the Tsik Dun Sol Deb (7 Line Prayer to Guru Rinpoche) daily.

.

Malcolm wrote:
That's funny, since it had not been revealed yet when Marpa was alive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 11:47 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
This is just nonsense.

Absolutely no understanding of the theological underpinnings of monotheism, and perversely, the intense kinship all three traditions have had ostensibly through Aristotle.

Namdrol said:
Who cares what philosophical justification Christianity and Islam use? Theological underpinnings have nothing to do with the systematic ethnic cleansing that both Christians and Muslims have engaged in. Theology is just their excuse. Theology is bullshit anyway.

tobes said:
Fine, so if it is not theology motivating violence, then what is it?

Political causes and conditions?

If that is the case, then your argument should not be against Islam or Christianity as religions, but the historical-material-political forces which produce violence.

That would be a wise position: for example, the current instability in the Middle East therefore related to colonialism, the west's addiction to oil.......realist politics. Islam thus playing merely a rhetorical role in all of this. In which case, why are you attacking it, and not colonialism, American consumption and geo-political stategies?


Malcolm wrote:
Christianity and Islam are both based on an historical interpretation of the role of God in human history and lay claim to a unique and privileged position vis a vie divine sanction. Much of their respective theologies is organized around justifying their respective claims to empire based on a specific reading of history that stems from the divinely sanctioned ethnic cleansing found in the old testament.

Islam and Christianity both attempt to seal their dominance by declaring an end to divine revelation, thus securing themselves the position of final authority in all matters both religious and mundane.

Both C and I are reactions and accommodations to the Hellenization of the Ancient World.

As for your last point, I have and do attack "...colonialism, American consumption and geo-political stategies".

However, '...colonialism, American consumption and geo-political stategies" is just an outgrowth of the Western Spirit, and thus the endgame of Christian empire politics. The religious impulse driving these politics is not longer relevant, but the ethics and the precedents driving them are still in force because of protestant values that drove the rise of capitalism to begin with. Like monotheism, capitalism and communism are both hegemonic economic systems driven by economic imperatives which derive from the same religious psychology that drives their predecessors, Christianity and Islam.

The impulse to both religious and mundane empire is present in the Koran.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
tobes said:
I'm sure you'll find a way to say that this is irrelevant, but it's not. There's far more cross fertilisation than most people assume, and any knowledgeable person from those three traditions recognises and appreciates this.


Namdrol said:
The nature of monotheism is imperialistic in general. Where only one god is regarded as valid, everything else is false.

N

Pero said:
Hehe well Buddhism is not a monotheistic religion and it regards everything else as false too.


Malcolm wrote:
Not exactly. Part of Buddhism is the vehicle of gods and men. It leads to higher rebirth. These are not false, just not liberative in an ultimate sense.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 11:35 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
What's astounding about this is your sense that all monotheists work with the same (imperialistic) conception of god.

Malcolm wrote:
The monotheistic impulse is merely a reflection of the human desire for empire. One ruler. Concentrated Power. Hegemony.


tobes said:
Forget about thousands of years of debate, and an almost infinite collection of positions on what the idea of god might actually mean.

Malcolm wrote:
This is all just intellectual bullshit. There is no god. So who cares what arguments people have about it. It is like arguing over the horns on a rabbit.

All that is of interest is the fact that given a chance, Muslim culture will seek to obliterate all others in its centuries long quest for world domination. And those it choose to permit to exist, get taxed. Can you imagine? Taxing others because they follow a faith different than yours?

At least Christianity has been neutered by secularism. That was my point in the beginning. I still stand by that point. Why do you think Christian fundamentalists in the US are trying to put Christian theology back into the school system as "creationism" etc.? Fundamentalist Christians know their balls have been cut off by science. So they are trying to destroy science. Next step: The Theocratic States of America.

All of this stems, as I said, from the human quest for empire.

At least materialism is more honest.

N

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:38 PM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Astus said:
username,

Thanks for the long response. Unfortunately, and this may be my fault, I don't see how it explains what I'm asking about. What I'm asking is simply the connection. It's like there are two computers and I'm asking how they are connected. I can't find in your answer that connecting relation. This I assume is important because that's why a live transmission is OK but not its recorded version. So it is the connection, not other parts I'm asking about.


Malcolm wrote:
HI Astus:

Can you have a phone conversation with a recording?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:34 PM
Title: Re: Nyingma practices in Sarma lineages?
Content:
udyan said:
I want to find out which Sarma schools/sub-branches or particular teachers are known to incorporate Nyingma teachings ?


Malcolm wrote:
All of them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: Is the 'e.coli' epidemic a gNyan disease caused by Spirits?
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Do you have any idea on how is the process, Namdrol? This spirit influences the generation of this new aggressive type of e. coli? Is it something intentional or just a by product of the activity of this sort of spirits? Can you explain this a little further? Let's imagine such is not a coincidence and in fact there's a connection. How would that work? The spirit's activity influences the characteristics of the bacteria when it reproduces bringing about a new strain or something?


Malcolm wrote:
By product.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:21 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
4.  The statues were not blown up during the Taliban reign (nor during the Mujahadeen reign) they were blown up well after the US invasion (during the reign of Karzais puppet government) as a reaction to, and a "ha-ha-suck-on-that" move against, the American invaders.


Malcolm wrote:
What are you talking about? The Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed in march 2001. Months before 9/11.

Get yer facts straight.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:19 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
So my logic is a thinly disguised psychologism, and yours the word of truth. How very convenient.

Malcolm wrote:
I will say it again, Abrahamic religions started out on the basis of ethnic cleansing. They still do it where ever they can, whenever given a chance.

Yawheh etc., are tribal gyalpos. Shugden on steroids.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:16 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
This is just nonsense.

Absolutely no understanding of the theological underpinnings of monotheism, and perversely, the intense kinship all three traditions have had ostensibly through Aristotle.

Malcolm wrote:
Who cares what philosophical justification Christianity and Islam use? Theological underpinnings have nothing to do with the systematic ethnic cleansing that both Christians and Muslims have engaged in. Theology is just their excuse. Theology is bullshit anyway.

tobes said:
Al Farabi (and other Islamic scholars) influenced Maimonides (Jewish who wrote in Arabic, deeply engaged with Muslims) - both influenced seminal Christian theologians such as Acquinas.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I know, and so what?

This has nothing to do with the main point, which is that monotheisms are pernicious ideologies that ultimately cannot permit other religions to flourish around them.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:10 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
tobes said:
I'm sure you'll find a way to say that this is irrelevant, but it's not. There's far more cross fertilisation than most people assume, and any knowledgeable person from those three traditions recognises and appreciates this.


Malcolm wrote:
The nature of monotheism is imperialistic in general. Where only one god is regarded as valid, everything else is false.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:35 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
adinatha said:
But I would never live in a Muslim country. It would be impossible to be Buddhist there. One of the conditions of a precious human life is living in a place where Buddhism may be practiced. Living in a Muslim country would prevent that.


Malcolm wrote:
Exactly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:33 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
adinatha said:
Note the prefix: re-cognition. One can only recognize what has already been seen. Perhaps introduction, then knowledge, then practice would be the recognition.

Or, there is a background knowing--The Mother. And then teacher pointing is re-cognizing--The Son. Then ignorance would be knowing, but ignoring. But it can't be ignoring to the point of forgetting with impossibility of remembering, because the buddha-nature has no coming or going. It can't be lost.

Buddha-nature is not like memories. It doesn't accumulate or dissipate. Therefore, recognizing in the sense of re-knowing is right.


Malcolm wrote:
Whatever, introduction, etc.

The point is aimed at the idea that we somehow forgot our real condition which we somehow knew before.

My point is that this is impossible.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:18 AM
Title: Re: Is the 'e.coli' epidemic a gNyan disease caused by Spirits?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
deleted


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:12 AM
Title: Re: Is the 'e.coli' epidemic a gNyan disease caused by Spirits?
Content:
orgyen jigmed said:
According to a seminar given by the late Dr. Trogawa (2005) alleges that: " The ancient medical scriptures consists of 18 Chapters dealing with gNyan diseases and speaks about 4 or 5 in detail; it lists a total of 7 diseases that would emerge in modern times, the first being cancer, the second being AIDS". He then goes on to say that " Violent and aggressive gnyan diseases are always caused by spirits ".
Can we hypothesise that this mysterious bacterial 'e.coli' epidemic as being one of these "7 diseases" caused by the gNyan?
And would someone knowledgeable possibly elaborate more on these "7 diseases that would emerge in modern times "?
Reference:

http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/nyen.htm " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Malcolm wrote:
All rims gnad are caused by provocations. It is axiomatic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:08 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


James418 said:
I'm not really that far from this position. I think if people reject the teaching outright, they are wrong. But I would add that people who "believe" it are also wrong.


Malcolm wrote:
Inferential acceptance of rebirth is not a belief, per se. It's a kind of pramana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:01 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Astus said:
Dzogchen teaching recalls us to the open nature of all things, the natural state we have never left, yet have somehow forgotten."[/i]


Namdrol said:
This is a stilly statement. We never knew this natural state, had we known it, we would have never entered into samsara.

N

Sherab said:
'Known' but not recognized and thus forgotten?


Malcolm wrote:
Recognition comes before knowing. I.e., if you don't recognize, you don't know.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 7:59 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
[
ronnewmexico said:
A example...a secular nation with equality of religion. Balance upset by british and US intervention. A dictator is enthroned. The result of this mileau, the dictator is overthrown....a theocratic totalitarian regime is result with a drastic interpretion of Islam.

Speaks to the nature of the religion???

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, of course.





ronnewmexico said:
Does the present theocracy believe it is right on the mark as far as the koran is concerned...certainly. Do the Tamils think they are right on the mark as concerning the buddhists of sri lanka...sure they do. Did the Christian crusaders think they may get papal dispensation enableing them to kill and eat muslim bodies when in need...sure they did.

None of this nor other speaks of the religions and what may be found or not found in them.

Malcolm wrote:
it is pretty clear that Mohammed was not a nice person. Not sure Jesus was such a nice guy either.

I don't really give a flying crap about these religions since they are based on delusion anyway.

I do care about the incredible harm both Xianity and Islam have wrought on the world throughout history. In particular I care about the fact that Islam hates Buddhism:

In Islam, širk (Arabic: شرك‎) is the sin of idolatry or polytheism. It refers to the deification of anyone or anything other than the singular God.[18] Shirk is also associating partners with him, giving his characteristics to others beside him, or not believing in his characteristics.[18][19]

Within Islam, širk is an unforgivable crime; God may forgive any sin except for committing širk.[18][20] It is the vice that is opposed to the virtue of tawhid, literally "declaring [that which is] one", often translated into the English term monotheism.[18][19]
As in the other Abrahamic religions, in practice the term has been greatly extended and may be used very widely within Islam to describe behaviour that is deprecated, including the use of images in a way that is seen as un-Islamic, but does not literally constitute worship.

For example, terming the Buddha omniscient is an example of "shirk".

So now a) can't leave Islam. Islam is a prison sentence for anyone born in a Muslim country. B) Buddhists and Hindus are all going to hell. Not even God can forgive us. Nice religion. Perfect control structure. if you can control people with their beliefs, you don't need external power structures.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 7:19 AM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Pema Rigdzin said:
"... the natural state we have never left, but have somehow never known" would have been good, though.


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 7:18 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I am happy to call respected teachers wrong if they are wrong, tell people who do not know enough they do not know enough, etc.

Rebirth is not an option in Buddhism. Any one who says it is, is teaching Dharma incorrectly.

N[/quote]

Well, to be clear I'm not saying that rebirth is an optional part of the teaching.
I'm simply saying making it a bar to people being Buddhists is wrongheaded. As long as it remains part of the teachings, they will have to learn to live with it. In other words it's up to them and their practice. I have just never known a teacher being happy ever to come in and demand belief is all.[/quote]

Telling people that reject rebirth they are not really Buddhists is ok. But one cannot force anyone to believe anything. People believe whatever they want.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 6:56 AM
Title: Re: Vermont’s House Passes Single-Payer Health Care Bill
Content:


Heruka said:
key word is controlling costs...i.e........controlling your health care, what you have accsess to.

Malcolm wrote:
That how it is now.

The reality is that the health care system in our country is not oriented towards giving health care. It is oriented toward profit.

Private healthcare has resulted, over all, in less accessible health care for everyone but the wealthy.

For a tiny fraction of the amount of money we spend on war every year, we could give every person in this country full cadillac health care plans for free.

Why is that so hard to understand?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 6:46 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:


James418 said:
By implication what he is saying is that he knows better than respected teachers, and that has been what I find hard to stomach. If you don't agree, you are a heretic. When you challenge his views your teachers are wrong, or heretics, or you don't know enough, and the Dharma is coming to an end and it's all terribly sad and so on. It really is silly.

Malcolm wrote:
I am happy to call respected teachers wrong if they are wrong, tell people who do not know enough they do not know enough, etc.

Rebirth is not an option in Buddhism. Any one who says it is, is teaching Dharma incorrectly.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 6:43 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
Maietraya is specifically a buddhist figure and that example was used for purpose to exemplify that.
There is no way under the sun the chinese revolts of those days cannot be seen as directly related to buddhism as the figure the future buddha is exactly a invention of buddhism. And scale...I have already described the scale....dwarfs the US and other revolutionary wars.

Malcolm wrote:
The Maitreya Millenialism in 6th century China was not Buddhist.

ronnewmexico said:
Monastic infighting....can be found in many areas and times as you well know.

Malcolm wrote:
Very rarely did such infighting lead to wholesale wars anywhere but in Japan. Never in India. Almost never in Tibet.

ronnewmexico said:
A war to spread buddhism.....depends upon perspective. The tamil tigers will and their supporters do in fact state that.

Malcolm wrote:
The Tamils were introduced to Shri Lanka by the Brits as workers. This is much more like Northern Ireland than anything else. Eventually it became about religious identity. But it did not start that way. There was no war to spread Buddhism. There was a war to protect a Buddhism country, from the perspective of the Sinhalese.

ronnewmexico said:
That speaks not of the religion nor of the wars...neither is found either to be what it is stated to be.

Malcolm wrote:
Muslim religious wars were fought to make converts as well as $$$.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 6:33 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
Fa Dao said:
Ron,
There is just the Teachings of the Buddha.


Malcolm wrote:
Yup, and that includes rebirth. Without rebirth, Buddhism is just a new age fad.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 6:32 AM
Title: Re: A Critique of "Buddhism Without Beliefs"
Content:
James418 said:
In later philosophy the Middle Way, as defined by Nāgārjuna at least, was that which is dependently originated is empty and that in itself is the Middle Way.

Malcolm wrote:
This idea is not original to Nagarjuna but comes directly from the The Inquiry of Katyayana.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 6:23 AM
Title: Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?
Content:


Pero said:
"All" does not include teachers not related to dharma.

Namdrol said:
It does. It includes whatever beneficial knowledge you are received in your life. At some level, it is all Dharma.

You are confusing this idea of unifying all teachers into Guru yoga with the principles of refuge. Not the same. Your refuge is the three jewels, you are unifying all teachers and knowledge into the three jewels, so there is not problem.

Pero said:
Hmm, you have an interesting take, could you please provide something to back this up?
Because I'm afraid that I otherwise can't change my mind so easily since in the Precious Vase kun 'dus yid bzhin nor bu is mentioned in two places. Ironically (since you say I'm confusing GY with refuge), one is in the section on Mahayoga Guru yoga (p223) and there the note says to look in the section on refuge (p103). And there it doesn't say what you're saying at all, there is no mention of anything not related to Buddhadharma.

Next to that, Norbu Rinpoche said this many times, yes, but never have I heard him say to unify teachers not related to transmission. In fact I heard the opposite, that we don't have to unify for example our carpenter teacher.

Malcolm wrote:
We do not have to do anything. In any case, I have personally heard him say that one can unify all one's teachers, including non-Buddhist teachers, in the three jewels. He said this in the 1992 SMS base retreat. Perhaps he has changed his opinion since then.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 6:21 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
The politicians control the interpretaion of the koran as they see fit to enforce their totalitarian rule.

Malcolm wrote:
This is just an apology because you cannot refute what is a fact in the hadiths. Can't come up with a good response? Blame politicians since we all know they are crooks.

Anyway, Islam is quite totalitarian. Since there is no priesthood in Islam, the injunction to kill apostates is a duty which any moslem can take upon themselves. Put them in a room. Give them three days to recant. Then if they do not, murder them. Nice. Definitely keeps Muslim exfiltration low.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


ronnewmexico said:
The extension of that thinking may be found in the book zen at war which I think is still in  print. It provides the basic rational and point of view of the Japanes invasion of the chinese mainland and other areas of asia in recent days prior too ww2 from those buddhists who supported those things that resulted in much hatred and violence.

A minority certainly. But Buddhists of lineage did support that thing.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think they used the jataka tales to support their POV. Brian Victoria's book pretty clearly lays out how they perverted Buddhist teachings with a nihilist interpretation of Zen. This aberration has far more to do with Meiji restoration cultural instability than Buddhism per se. A better example for your thesis would have been the monastic wars of the 12th and 13th century in Japan.

In any event, such occurrences are notable exceptions.

For example, you earlier brought up Chinese Maitreya millennialism; again, this type of aberration is a huge exception and had more to do with Chinese culture than Buddhism.

Certainly Buddhist have engaged in waging wars, but I cannot think of a single historical example of Buddhist waging a religious war against non-Buddhists. Can you?

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 5:47 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


ronnewmexico said:
That tale is used to support violence.

Malcolm wrote:
Please provide an example.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?
Content:


Pero said:
"All" does not include teachers not related to dharma.


Malcolm wrote:
It does. It includes whatever beneficial knowledge you are received in your life. At some level, it is all Dharma.

You are confusing this idea of unifying all teachers into Guru yoga with the principles of refuge. Not the same. Your refuge is the three jewels, you are unifying all teachers and knowledge into the three jewels, so there is not problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?
Content:


Pero said:
It contradicts our teachers instructions, as far as I've understood them anyway, and it doesn't really make much sense.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Pero:

it is what ChNN has said, many times.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
ronnewmexico said:
So, now it's up to you to provide us scriptures from the Buddhadharma that incite people to violence and hatred out of superiority. This is a dare.  

Best wishes, my friend!


But this is so easy as to be pathetic...

.


Malcolm wrote:
You did not refute the point. There is nowhere in Buddhadharma where people are incited to violence and hatred. The Sea Captain Jataka tale is not an example of violence and hatred, rather it is the opposite.

On the other hand, apostate Muslims run the risk of being executed if they should declare their conversion.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 5:16 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
conebeckham said:
Please provide a citation for that claim, Namdrol.  It would be good to back up such statements, yes?


Malcolm wrote:
Qur'an
The Qur'an states that God (in Arabic, Allah) despises apostasy, with severe punishment to be imposed in the hereafter, but not mentioning explicitly any earthly penalty for apostates. Except 16:106-109, the verses that discuss apostasy all appear in surahs identified as Madinan, that is, they belong to the period when the Islamic state had been established, whereas traditional Islamic scholars have proposed that the prophet needed more time and/or power to legislate death as the penalty for apostasy.[citation needed]
The Qur'an contains verses from which it can be inferred that apostasy is not a capital offence.[33]
[edit]Sunni hadith
Examples of Sunni Hadiths that sanction the death penalty for apostasy include passages in the Sahih al-Bukhari include Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260, Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57, Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:58 and Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271.
The two most popular Hadiths usually cited by orthodox Islamic clerics to support the death penalty for apostates are:
"Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."Sahih al-Bukhari, []
"Whoever changed his (Islamic) religion, then kill him" Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57
[edit]Shia hadith
Some Shia Hadiths also sanction the death penalty for apostasy. For example, one of the shia Imams has been asked about a Muslim who has converted to Christianity, he answered "he should be killed not called to repent", and when asked about a Christian converting to Islam then converting back to Christianity, he answered "he should be given the chance to repent, otherwise killed" (Al-Kafi 7:257 | 10), (Men la Yahthuruh Al-Faqeeh (Whom an Islamic Cleric is not attending) 3:91 | 341), and (Tahtheeb Al-Ahkam (Rectification of the Rules) 10:140 | 554).[34]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apparently Mohammed advocated killing apostate muslims.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 3:11 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Any Muslim can do the same. Nobody is forced to belong to a certain religion... or is it?

Malcolm wrote:
No, Islam forbids conversion to other faiths. It is an offense which carries capital punishment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


Jangchup Donden said:
Don't get me wrong.  I'm well aware of the problems facing Islam (as well as the other monotheistic/abrahamic religions) as a whole, as well as the problematic things in their scriptures.  I just don't think you're particularly skillful in discussing it.

Malcolm wrote:
No need to be "skillful", just need to speak plainly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 12:53 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
tobes said:
This is really a repugnant analogy: you're suggesting that there is something inherent in the nature of Islam...

Namdrol said:
Yes, there is: monotheism i.e. a totalitarian utopian fantasy. Monotheism in all of its forms is the scorpion which stings any population upon which it rides.

Monotheistic religions are inherently violent and wicked. The fact that there are kind, intelligent people in monotheistic faiths just not change the basic imperialistic and totalitarian aspects of these faiths. Islam is just another of these. The reason why it is in competition with Christianity is that two monotheistic faiths cannot long accommodate each other without one asserting dominance over the other. But neither has room for religions like Hinduism or Buddhism.

Islamic accommodation and tolerance of other faiths, like that of Christianity, is pragmatic -- it is about money. That's it.

N

gnegirl said:
Actually, i think its all about power.  Religion with political stuff all mixed up in it is rather dangerous.  Pick any religion with an enshrined power structure, and you'll see what i mean.

Its like tribal politics all blown way out of proportion and taken to the ridiculous with the abrahamic religions.

Malcolm wrote:
It's worse with monotheistic faiths.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: Looking for seeds
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
BT world seeds is a very good company.

arisaema81 said:
I have done a quick search and could only find a bulk supplier and the site looked a bit suspect (B and T World Seeds). Where do you live? It appears that it is a Zone 10 plant using the USDA system which means that it is only hardy to 30 F or -1 C , or in other words it is not hardy for toffee. If you are able to get some fresh seed or plant material then you may be able to grow it as a house plant  but I guess that you will have to prune and train the plant due to its large stature.

It may be easier to try and buy a plant itself and go from there. Good luck in your search..... I love plants

Arisaema


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 31st, 2011 at 11:11 PM
Title: Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?
Content:
padma norbu said:
1. In Dzogchen we visualize the guru as all our teachers. I have asked numerous times if this means people from other traditions as well and the answer I invariably get is: "ALLLL teachers."

Malcolm wrote:
it means all teachers and all knowledge, not just Buddhist knowledge.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 31st, 2011 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
alpha said:
then how can you" recognize" the natural state since you have never know it before..?


Malcolm wrote:
You receive an introduction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 31st, 2011 at 9:12 PM
Title: Re: James Low & Simply Being
Content:
Astus said:
Dzogchen teaching recalls us to the open nature of all things, the natural state we have never left, yet have somehow forgotten."[/i]


Malcolm wrote:
This is a stilly statement. We never knew this natural state, had we known it, we would have never entered into samsara.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 31st, 2011 at 9:01 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
tobes said:
This is really a repugnant analogy: you're suggesting that there is something inherent in the nature of Islam...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there is: monotheism i.e. a totalitarian utopian fantasy. Monotheism in all of its forms is the scorpion which stings any population upon which it rides.

Monotheistic religions are inherently violent and wicked. The fact that there are kind, intelligent people in monotheistic faiths just not change the basic imperialistic and totalitarian aspects of these faiths. Islam is just another of these. The reason why it is in competition with Christianity is that two monotheistic faiths cannot long accommodate each other without one asserting dominance over the other. But neither has room for religions like Hinduism or Buddhism.

Islamic accommodation and tolerance of other faiths, like that of Christianity, is pragmatic -- it is about money. That's it.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 31st, 2011 at 8:40 PM
Title: Re: Tibetan Doctors, please read
Content:
Namdrol said:
The instructions are for precious pills. These are not precious pills.

Agar 35 should be taken in the evening before bed. Sems bde or "happiness of mind: should be taken in the morning. Both with hot water, half an hour before a meal.

If you do not have anxiety, depression or some other wind disorder, you don't need these.

Pero said:
Do these pills have an expiration date? I still have some Agar 35 that I got a year or two ago and never finished because I disliked the taste too much hehe. Vimala was much easier to swallow.

Malcolm wrote:
Roughly four years


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 31st, 2011 at 10:52 AM
Title: Re: Tibetan Doctors, please read
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The instructions are for precious pills. These are not precious pills.

Agar 35 should be taken in the evening before bed. Sems bde or "happiness of mind: should be taken in the morning. Both with hot water, half an hour before a meal.

If you do not have anxiety, depression or some other wind disorder, you don't need these.

N


padma norbu said:
I got these Tibetan medicine pills called Agar-35 and "Happiness of Mind." They are supposed to help balance everything out and put one in a calm state which is conducive to meditation, basically. They work gradually over time and it's not like you pop a pill to chill out. It balances pitta and whatever (I'm no doctor).

Check out these instructions: There are specific guidelines given in preparation for taking the idfferent Tibetan pill formulas and specifically the Precious Pills. Among these are that this pill should not be exposed to direct sunlight or bright artificial light, it should be taken on days with no extreme output of energy for three days prior to beginning and four days following taking the precious pill. Refrain from sex & excessive exercise, coffe or black/green tea or alcohol, red meat, eggs, shell fish, raw fruits or vegetables, fried, pungent or sour foods, smoking extreme hot or cold baths or showers. Mild intake of food, avoiding garlic, onion and black olive.

Prepare a room by blocking the windows and doors so that direct light cannot enter. A candle may be used for light when necessary. The night before, remove and crush the Precious pill or pills and then place in boiled water in a clean unchipped glass and cover with a white cloth and place it at your bedside allowing it to soak over night. On this evening it is particularly important to dress warmly and be warm during sleep. Early the next morning one should drink the mixture after stirring it thoroughly with the clean ring finger while reciting the Medicine Buddha Mantra. This should then be followed by drinking a cup of warm, boiled water. All the while not leaving the darkened room for twenty four hours. Bathroom should be darkened (candle is ok) when needed.

Reciting the Mantra of Medicine Buddha is suggested while opening and taking the medicine. The mantra is: Om Bekanzi  Bekanzi Maha Bekanzi Bekanzi Radza Samu Gate Soha! (phonetically  ~ OM beyconzee beyconzee Mawhaw Beyconzee Beyconzee Rawdza Sawmoo Gawtay Sohaw). Reciting this mantra 108 times in a series of seven times 7x108 is also recommended during this 24 hour period. A mala would be needed for this to help you count and keep track of the mantra count.

Remember when taking this precious pill it should be a time of deep rest and gentle meditative contemplation ~ this attitude will assist in the alchemy of healing involved.
I am supposed to take 2 pills a day of each over a long period of time, like a few months. Based on these instructions, that is something that could only possibly be achieved by people with no job or who are on a long vacation like a 3-month retreat (and hopefully it's a Medicine Buddha retreat).

Additionally, it seems the got the Medicine Buddha Mantra wrong, didn't they?
Here's the one I'm familiar with: Tayata Om Bekandze Bekandze Maha Bekandze Radza Samudgate Soha.
Here's there's: Om Bekanzi  Bekanzi Maha Bekanzi Bekanzi Radza Samu Gate Soha
I have bolded the differences. Google turns up no results at all for their version of the mantra.

My question for the doctors is: is this a bit extreme overkill here?
Agar-35 can be bought a few different places, so I assume some Tibetan Doctors are familiar with it, if there are any doctors here. I can't imagine a regular medicine such as this requires you to block a week off your calendar and 24 hours in a dark room every time you take a pill which you are supposed to take consecutively for a few months.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 31st, 2011 at 2:16 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


ronnewmexico said:
I say stop this nonsense talk about islam.....or prove what is contended is true.

Malcolm wrote:
Islam, like the other two monotheistic religions, has a violent past.

Just read history.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 31st, 2011 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
A frog and scorpion were trapped on a island in a flood and the water was rising fast. The scorpion, being unable to swim, asked the frog, "Please let me ride on your back, as I will surely die if you don't".
At first, the frog refused "If I let you ride on my back, you will sting me!"
The scorpion replied "Why would do that? If I sting you, I will certainly drown".

Somewhat reluctantly, the frog agreed and allowed the scorpion to scuttle onto its back and set off across the water.

Halfway across, suddenly the scorpion stung the frog. While dying the frog asked "Why did you do that, you have condemned us both to die!"

Before slipping under the water, the scorpion replied "I could not help it, it is my nature."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, May 31st, 2011 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Namdrol said:
You can have a recorded teaching -- but you cannot receive transmission from a recording.

Astus said:
That's why I ask what the difference is between a live webcast and its record. If no transmission is possible through a record what makes the live one special? IIRC there were video cassettes used before online transmission. But even if the teacher simultaneously takes part without being seen or heard by the student, how is that relevant to those sitting in front of a screen?

Malcolm wrote:
The recording merely served to synchronize the teacher and student in time.

The live webcast means everyone is participating at the same time. And please, let's not get into silly discussions about network latency and so on.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2011 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Astus said:
Namdrol,

So technically it is OK to have a recorded teaching, right? Then books are practically the same.

DN,

Intention is quite an internal thing, I don't see how its simultaneity has any relevance. Plus there is always a delay in transmission, even if just a few seconds.


Malcolm wrote:
You can have a recorded teaching -- but you cannot receive transmission from a recording.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2011 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:
Astus said:
How does a live webcast differs from a record, if at all?


Malcolm wrote:
A recording is not alive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2011 at 9:43 PM
Title: Re: Why is Buddhism so appealing to educated Caucasians?
Content:
Luke said:
1.  Why do you think it is that Buddhism is so popular among educated white people?

Malcolm wrote:
It is because we are educated.


Luke said:
2.  What can be done to make Buddhism more popular with other races of people and with less-educated people?

Malcolm wrote:
Educate them.


Luke said:
At first, the effort to "liberate all sentient beings" is mere words, but we have to strive to live up to it as closely as we can by continually developing our ability to benefit and feel compassion for more and more types of sentient beings.

Malcolm wrote:
Interest in Buddhism is an issue of one's karma it has nothing to do with race, education, or even culture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2011 at 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:


mindyourmind said:
Now my question is really this : can one really be said to be practicing a path as sophisticated as Dzogchen via book and webcast?


Namdrol said:
Yes.

mindyourmind said:
Would the student not reach a stage where s/he would have to get person-to-person teachings?


Malcolm wrote:
Define "person to person".


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, May 30th, 2011 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Content:


mindyourmind said:
Now my question is really this : can one really be said to be practicing a path as sophisticated as Dzogchen via book and webcast?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2011 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:


Pero said:
Is there any particular reason for that?

Malcolm wrote:
Gnosis is probably a better word, but out of habit I use wisdom.

But both are just placeholder terms to some extent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2011 at 8:51 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Islam must be understood on the basis of what it is, as presented objectively in the Koran, Hadith and Sira

heart said:
Let apply that to Vajrayana and see what you get http://www.trimondi.de/EN/Kalachakra_2011.htm " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . In an other thread here someone wondered why Sakya Trizin didn't kill the Chinese army since he is a Hevajra practioner, with a clear reference to the Hevajra Tantra. Go study Islam with a qualified teacher is my advice if you want to understand the meaning and make the kind of statement that you do about Islam and the Quran, reading hateful rubbish on the internet is not the way to study any religion.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
The failure of your critique here is that there are no non-definitive statements in the Koran, nor is it a coded text, nor of indirect meaning and so on. The only defense Muslim scholars have these passages is that they are related to historical episodes during the life of Mohammed. But this is not really made clear in the Koran itself, a book supposedly written by Allah whose every word is held to be infallible.

You cannot say the same of most Buddhist highest yoga tantric texts i.e. they are coded, not be taken literally, etc. Now, we can argue about whether they once were meant to be taken literally -- but it seems unlikely.

So, there is miles of difference between the false critiques of the trimondis and cherry picking statements out of the Koran and hadith that encourage violence against kaffirs like we Buddhists.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2011 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:


Pero said:
Well I guess the problem is similar as with rig pa. What translation do you like instead of wisdom?
Is primordial knowledge better?


Malcolm wrote:
I prefer wisdom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, May 28th, 2011 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
We are convinced that the word knowledge has something to do with memory and inteligence and that is all based on the Mind of Karma.
KY[/color]

Malcolm wrote:
rig pa does have something to do with dran pa, actually.

For example, in this passage from the dgongs pa zang thal explanatory tantra:

For both of that, first, because memory (dran pa) arose, there no terror through panic or fear. Since vidyā (rig pa) recognized itself (rang ngo shes), there was no grasping to clarity. Since wisdom arose to vidyā, [12/a] it naturally formed as the dharmakāya. Since the energy of that wisdom arose in the ten directions, the sambhogakāya arose...

But this is not based on karma.

Further, clear memory arises through being moved by wind that rises in the basis that is not established as any sort of entity.  Vidya arises without being lifted by the vāyu of conceit. Since it is not moved by the wind that causes movement, objects and mind are not divided into two. Since it is not moved by the karmic vāyu, samsara does not develop.

There is a clear progression in the snying thig texts that describes first memory (dran pa), then rig pa, and in this case, this memory and knowledge is not involved in samsara in any way.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2011 at 11:08 PM
Title: Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Content:
Clarence said:
Just a quick question:

I sent an email last week to my local DC chapter about membership and the precious vase, but haven't received an answer yet. Does DC membership go through the local communities or do I have to send an email to an other higher gar?
I can't order the book until I am a member.

Thanks,


Malcolm wrote:
If you are in US etc, you can become a member here:

http://Tsegyalgar.org/support/onlinemembership/ " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In Europe including UK:

http://www.dzogchen.it/registration/index.php?metodo=new_reg&lang=en " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2011 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The problem is that you and mudra do not fully understand what term "awareness" really means in English. So therefore, you are stuck on an obsolete translation.

So, there is no point in further discussion.

As long as you understand what rig pa means for yourself, you can call rig pa "george".

N



kalden yungdrung said:
Namdrol wrote:
If you are aware of the basis as a something, then you immediately fall into samsara. This is the problem with using the term awareness for rig pa.


Tashi delek,   

- If Awareness of the Natural State is seen, with  a non-egocentric mind, then this does belong to Fruition Rigpa. Fruition Rigpa is Awareness that has had a direct and stable experience of Emptiness.

- The mind of karma has an ego-centric mind, this does belong to path Rigpa. Path Rigpa has a mind which has intellectually understood emptiness and here does Rigpa mean, Inteligence.

Here is for me clear that Rigpa can be understood with the inteligence and the related knowledge OR be experienced which mean to be Aware of the Natural State.
Aware of that Natural State is not seeing that State as done with object and subject.

One special thing of the Natural State is that the Wisdom is self-emanating and is not caused like we know with an object and subject.
Emptiness is like we should know a not born case. So it is always without interruption there, but how do we experience that Awareness which is Yermed  with Emptiness. Is it intelectual Rigpa or Awareness Rigpa?

I can imagin myself that intelectual Rigpa can never be Aware or experience the lights of the 4 Lamps..........



Best wishes
KY


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2011 at 9:12 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


tobes said:
Such a narrative requires a bizarre view of causality which demonstrates that all political actions (empires rising and falling etc) stem from texts, and not from an unbelievably complex and infinite chain of events (of which, ideas are only one element).


Malcolm wrote:
All it requires is an understanding that texts are products of cultures which then reinforce and support cultural norms. In a world where the there was only Islam, everyone would get along just fine.

No one is pretending that there were not interesting philosophers, physicians, historians and poets produced by Islamic high culture. Genocidal Hebrews also wrote the Song of Solomon.

Human cultures contain contradictions.

Some of those contradictions are deadly to cultures around them.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2011 at 8:53 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
muni said:
Rigpa on it; knowledge for schoolstudents. There are many Rigpa's and combinations.
In 'naked awareness' I see clear as emptiness and awareness.  Pure awareness as Rigpa here.
Maybe self-"arising" (already is) gnosis= empty awareness.

Ma Rigpa = state sentient being. (not knowing)
I think the linguistic meaning is less important. Also nature is not in text revealing.

Ah.


Malcolm wrote:
HI Muni:

One of the problems you will face if you insist on translating rigpa as a awareness, is that you will be able to differentiate Dzogchen, etc. from the hindus who are always waffling on about "pure awareness". In reality, "awareness" is a word in english which requires an object.

"Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awareness " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know you are not a native English speaker, and so you may not be tuned into usage of English terms. Awareness is always an awareness of something. The basis is not a something. If you are aware of the basis as a something, then you immediately fall into samsara. This is the problem with using the term awareness for rig pa.

Knowledge in the other hand is more ambiguous word in English which actually involves real philosophical issues hence the discipline of epistemology i.e. the study of knowledge qua knowledge.

Rig pa in every sense of the word as it is used in opposition to ma rig pa has to do with knowing as opposed to ignorance. Some have described as the intersection between belief and truth, or "a justified true belief."

In this case, rig pa is justified, because it is based on a personal experience, true, because that experience can be verified by anyone, and a belief because in this case personal experience has lead us to a state personal verification of something that before hand be merely believed.

Anyway, people are free to believe what they wish, justified or not. It is my belief, one I think justified and true, that the English word awareness is not an adequate translation of rig pa almost every case.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, May 27th, 2011 at 8:28 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
Namdrol said:
Ye shes is normally translated as wisdom or primordial wisdom, but some people these days, following John Pettite and Richad Baron are liking primordial awareness for this.

Pero said:
To me, "wisdom" was always very ambiguous, primordial awareness is much clearer.

Malcolm wrote:
It isn't really, since ye shes is not an awareness of any kind, actually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Do not know about right or wrong here, sorry.
But JLA knowing, he is seldom "wrong".

Best wishes
KY[/color]

Malcolm wrote:
IN this respect, he is wrong. Completely wrong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 11:29 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
If JLA could prove his case then what would be the result?
[/color]

Malcolm wrote:
As i have explained, Achard is wrong. ChNN does not translate rigpa as "presence".

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
But if the Lopons take over a word without knowing that word, that is what i doubt......

Malcolm wrote:
That is what Achard accuses ChNN of doing.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 11:04 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

Coming back on Rigpa in the sense of Rigpai Yeshes.

- rig-pa'i ye-shes - the knowledge which is immediate Awareness

- Can one compare this Knowledge  with the self illuminating Wisdom whch is aware of itself?
- It seems to originate out of the Base / Zhi, when abiding in the Natural State, when i understood it well .....


Best wishes
KY

Namdrol said:
rig pa'i ye she, the wisdom of knowledge.

This wisdom only arises after there is recognition of the basis and the knowledge of the basis that ensues from that recognition.

kalden yungdrung said:
Tahsi delek  

See in in another following order.
At first learning and studying the Dzogchen (Rigpa = Inteligence). Then practice like Kordo Rushan etc. and the Natural State.
Then Awareness comes with the 4 visions related to the lamps. This experience cannot be seen as based on knowledge.

Malcolm wrote:
People are aware of the four lamps all the time without knowing (avidyā, ma rig pa) what they are. We all have eyes, channels, inner dimension and outer space and these four always produce wisdom appearances whether we know what they are or not. 


It is only when they know (vidyā, rig pa) what they are and how to use them in practice, that wisdom develops or rather, is unveiled.

But you see, the reason why when this type of practice is presented to people, we always start with describing the basis. So they will understand the difference between vidyā and avidyā.

Conversations like these remind me of why it is useless to have them. I have my idea, you all have yours, and never the twain to meet. 

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 10:55 PM
Title: Re: Vajrayana practice and psychological disorders
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Must read book:

The Normal And The Pathological:

https://www.amazon.com/Normal-Pathological-Georges-Canguilhem/dp/0942299590 " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The Normal and the Pathological is one of the crucial contributions to the history of science in the last half century. It takes as its starting point the sudden appearance of biology as a science in the 19th-century and examines the conditions determining its particular makeup.Canguilhem analyzes the radically new way in which health and disease were defined in the early 19th-century, showing that the emerging categories of the normal and the pathological were far from being objective scientific concepts. He demonstrates how the epistemological foundations of modern biology and medicine were intertwined with political, economic, and technological imperatives.Canguilhem was an important influence on the thought of Michel Foucault and Louis Althusser, in particular for the way in which he poses the problem of how new domains of knowledge come into being and how they are part of a discontinuous history of human thought."


orgyen jigmed said:
"gregkavarnos wrote Unfortunately doctors here in Greece dish out anti-psychotics and tricyclics as if they are candy!
Although I need to be careful not to be dangerously irresponsible particularly towards damaging the confidence of service users pertaining the competence of psychiatrists in general, or the reputation of psychiatry, it remains a fact that there exist hidden personal financial rewards and incentives meant for those psychiatrists who can increase sales for the pharmaceutical industry – especially from the promotion of antipsychotic drugs.

Without a doubt, there is a greater role for the pharmaceutical industry in supplying drugs to treat these 'new' disorders. For example, there is now evidence that "every psychiatric expert involved in writing the standard diagnostic criteria for disorders such as depression and schizophrenia has had financial ties to drug companies that sell medications for those illnesses" (Washington Post, April 2006).

On the other hand mental illness is real, and most psychiatrists neither misuse nor abuse psychiatry.  As can be testified by many service users and their families’ psychiatry have been found of increasing value. However, while antipychotics and tricyclics have been claimed to have specific action against psychotic symptoms, some critics also argue they act in a much cruder way by producing a chemical lobotomy or a "chemical straight jacket" which inhibits all creative thought processes.

Nevertheless, it must be emphasised that in sever cases of depression or other serious mental illness these drugs are a necessity not an option, and until they ‘kick in’ other forms of therapy including psychotherapy such as MBCT - cannot be useful.  What I am arguing here is only that while psychiatry and Mental Health Services all over, applauds the role of such drugs in emptying the hospitals, critics such as Moncrieff (1997) argue that they merely helped to replace expensive custodial care with long-term drug-induced control.

References:

Washington Post, April, 2006. "Experts Defining Mental Disorders Are Linked to Drug Firms". http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/19/AR2006041902560.html " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Moncrieff, J. (1997, Summer). Psychiatric imperialism: the medicalisation of modern living. Critical Psychiatry Network. Reprinted from Soundings, 6. http://www.critpsynet.freeuk.com/sound.htm " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
tamdrin said:
...but I never saw you say anything about Namkhai Norbu's translation of rigpa as "presence" which is really a lackluster tranlation, many will agree.

Namdrol said:
He does not translate rigpa as presence, as I have explained before. The word he is translating for presence is dran pa, mindfulness.

The word he uses for rig pa is knowledge.


tamdrin said:
While many of his other students who post around here think that he does translate rigpa as presence.  Again awareness can be of relative objects (i.e. being aware of some object).. knowledge can also be of relative objects, having knowledge of such and such field of knowledge.

Malcolm wrote:
Also rig pa can mean knowledge. As a verb, it means "to know" when it is used as a verb in Tibetan, never "to be aware". Then there is the rig gnas lnga i.e. the five sciences, the pañcavidyāsthana.

The use of the term vidyā as the opposite of avidyā is very deliberate in Dzogchen texts and relates to the beginning of the cycle of dependent origination. When Samantabhadra knew his own state, the chain of dependent origination, which begins with ignorance, never started for him.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 10:41 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:


kalden yungdrung said:
Rigpa in the sense of  intelligence, could be equal to knowledge and this is the oposite to no intelligence,

Malcolm wrote:
The opposite of intelligence is absence of intelligence or in this sense, the insentient, the inert.


kalden yungdrung said:
But i cannot help it that many Geshelas, Khenpos, Lopons, Rinpoches etc. maintain the meaning of Awareness when in the Natural State as a word to express Rigpa

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, they do. They are not native English speakers. Not their fault. They do the best they can. The reason every one in the bon po world uses awareness is mainly due to John Reynolds.

But now more and more people are moving away from that translation, in the Buddhist world at any rate.

The bon world is much smaller, and therefore, it will more resistant to change. Also fewer western translators.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
tamdrin said:
...but I never saw you say anything about Namkhai Norbu's translation of rigpa as "presence" which is really a lackluster tranlation, many will agree.

Namdrol said:
He does not translate rigpa as presence, as I have explained before. The word he is translating for presence is dran pa, mindfulness.

The word he uses for rig pa is knowledge.


tamdrin said:
While many of his other students who post around here think that he does translate rigpa as presence.  Again awareness can be of relative objects (i.e. being aware of some object).. knowledge can also be of relative objects, having knowledge of such and such field of knowledge.

Malcolm wrote:
In this case, he is using the term rig pa to describe one's knowledge of the basis i.e. essence, nature and energy/compassion. When you have that knowledge (vidyā/rig pa) you no longer wander in samsara. When you do not have that knowledge (avidyā,ma rig pa) then you wander in samsara endlessly.

As far as what other people may say who do not know Tibetan, and do not follow his teachings with text in hand, all I can say is that they are mistaken.

Sometimes Rinpoche will translate "shes pa skad gcig ma" as "instant presence", because this uncontrived momentary awareness is the basis of tregchö etc. Then in this case one uses mindfulness as a support for uncontrived momentary awareness do that you do not wander in distraction. In this respect, there is basically difference between mahāmudra meditation,  dzogchen and the Sakya "khordey yerme" i.e. the view of inseparability of samsara and nirvana -- they all are talking about the same thing in this respect tha mal gyi shes pa so called "ordinary mind" or "basis awareness".

But rigpa is something else. Rigpa is the knowledge of your state. When you have recognized uncontrived momentary awareness, the knowledge that ensues from recognition is rigpa. When you have recognized the meaning of sound, lights and rays, the knowledge that ensues from recognition is rigpa. Why, because you are no longer in a state of ignorance. The opposite of ignorance is knowledge. The opposite of ma rig pa is rig pa, the opposite of avidyā is vidyā.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 10:24 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
tamdrin said:
...but I never saw you say anything about Namkhai Norbu's translation of rigpa as "presence" which is really a lackluster tranlation, many will agree.

Malcolm wrote:
He does not translate rigpa as presence, as I have explained before. The word he is translating for presence is dran pa, mindfulness.

The word he uses for rig pa is knowledge.

Why do I know this? Because I frequently follow him with the Tibetan text he is teaching in hand.

But I am not saying that knowledge is the best translation for rig pa in general because he is using it. It is because I have been reading Dzogchen texts for 20 years and finally concluded on my own that "knowledge" was best.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

Coming back on Rigpa in the sense of Rigpai Yeshes.

- rig-pa'i ye-shes - the knowledge which is immediate Awareness

- Can one compare this Knowledge  with the self illuminating Wisdom whch is aware of itself?
- It seems to originate out of the Base / Zhi, when abiding in the Natural State, when i understood it well .....


Best wishes
KY

Malcolm wrote:
rig pa'i ye she, the wisdom of knowledge.

This wisdom only arises after there is recognition of the basis and the knowledge of the basis that ensues from that recognition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 10:20 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
muni said:
Yes, the word what can help the most clear to express its' meaning, is what one can apply. No idea make wholes in "naked awareness", a word of Lama Surya Das.

Malcolm wrote:
IMO opinion the word "vidyā" does not mean "awareness", as I have explained. The term "shes pa" can mean awareness depending on context. It can also mean "to recognize" depending on whether it is being used as a noun or a verb.

Having translated and read thousands of pages of Dzogchen texts, I am very dissatisfied with the use of awareness for rigpa. It should be deprecated, like HTML 1.0.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,   

Yes the term Rigpa, is a very difficult word to translate, sure when it is related to awareness. 
Also is it clear that Rigpa could also be inteligence, that was also one of my earlier suggestion.

Malcolm wrote:
In my opinion, translating rigpa as "awareness" is simply wrong. Intelligence is also not good, again IMO. 

In this case, knowledge is best. Why? Because rigpa is opposite to ma rig pa. Knowledge is the opposite of ignorance. 

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 9:08 PM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:


muni said:
Awareness with an added word. Like Selfsprung Awareness, Pristine Awareness, 'inner Pure Awareness and Knowledge', and  other to express completedness.

Malcolm wrote:
I know what Sogyal says, and translating rig pa as "awareness" is passe.

Further, just as a simple point of Tibetan grammar, rang gi rig pa means "one's own rigpa", not self-awareness.

rang byung rigpa means "knowledge that comes from oneself i.e. it is based on one's own direct experience.

Ye shes is normally translated as wisdom or primordial wisdom, but some people these days, following John Pettite and Richad Baron are liking primordial awareness for this.

I back translate rigpa in Sanskrit generally, as vidyā unless it is being used as a verb "to know". Adriano Clemente has stopped translating it altogether, which I approve of. However, since we use terms like dharmakāya, etc., for Buddhist Dzogchen texts at any rate, vidyā is another word that is preferable.

On the other hand, we are still very much in the experimental stage and every translator and and so on has their own ideas based on what they understand about the teachings.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: How does pleasure arise?
Content:


gregkavarnos said:
When we say that the feeling experienced is a consequence of the ripening of karma it may be as simple as saying that if you make the effort to go get a massage from an experienced and capable masseur this action will ripen in a pleasant bodily feeling (unless it is thai massage!) which may then lead to the formation of a positive impression towards the object (the massage) an attachment to the feeling and further karma (intentional action) on our behalf to repeat the sensation/feeling.


Malcolm wrote:
It is even simpler than that -- since the six sense organs are also a result of ripening, the sensations we experience through them (pleasant, painful, neutral) are a result of ripening.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 9:17 AM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
Nosta said:
Why is it english very precise?

In fact, some languages seem to have lots of more words and that can increase precision on such languages


Malcolm wrote:
Because English has more synonyms than just about any other language in the world because of its diverse roots.

Also it is easy to create English words or adapt English words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 5:07 AM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

- First how is knowledge seen of a State which is without recognizing or is more experienced in the sense of " self-iluminating "?
- So i guess that "knowledge" has the meaning of be aware of that State by study or by realisation of the Natural State which is without "knowledge" of that State.
So  Rigpa can/ has also here above mentioned,  the meaning of the knowledge which one must have to be able to regognize a certain degree in the Dzogchen Yogas / "meditations".

Further is English sometimes not good enough to make some uusefull Dzogchen translations.

KY

Malcolm wrote:
Knowledge comes from recognition. Without recognition, no knowledge.

English is actually a very good language for Dzogchen translations -- it is very precise.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
heart said:
Secondly, disrespecting the second largest religion in the world is a threat to freedom of religion.

Namdrol said:
Now, this is just talking from fear. In a free society one has the right to criticize whatever one likes.

heart said:
I don't know Namdrol, you never seemed very open to criticism yourself so it sounds a bit odd. Criticism without respect, what is that?

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
Magnus:

There are things about the Bible as a whole I do not respect on any level. And I freely criticize them. The same goes for the Koran, or the Talmud, etc. For example, the Talmud opens with all the different ways one may take a wife. One of them is through rape. Can't respect that and won't pretend to. Likewise, I don't respect the Koran when it says that all kaffirs should be killed unless they plead for mercy. I don't respect the endless stories of the Hebrews engaging in ethnic cleansing in the Old Testament, etc. I don't respect the Bhagavad Gita when Krishna tells Arjuna he must fight the Pandavas, his cousins, because it is his "dharma" to be a warrior. etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 4:40 AM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
Nosta said:
After all what exactly is rigpa? Whats the difference between rigpa and nirvana?


Namdrol said:
Rigpa is just your knowledge of your primordial state.

kalden yungdrung said:
Tashi delek,  

Rigpa could also be awareness about the / "our" Natural State?

Best wishes
KY

Malcolm wrote:
There can be awareness without knowledge but there cannot be rigpa without knowledge. So no, rig pa is knowledge of our state, whatever adjective you wish to use to describe it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 2:47 AM
Title: Re: Cancer in Tibetan Medicine
Content:
Huseng said:
Are nāgā of the same quality as preta? In that they are non-physical?


Namdrol said:
Nāgās basically belong to the animal realm. They are shaped like frogs, snakes, fish and tadpoles. They are water spirits. In Tibetan medicine, native tibetan ideas about them had intersected with Indian ideas.

Huseng said:
Sounds a lot like the Chinese concept of "dragons"  or long 龍 as they are called in Chinese. Some translators used long 龍 when translating nāgā in the past.

In the Chinese concept long 龍 can be responsible for rains, floods and other aqua-related phenomena such as hurricanes. Traditionally rural people would maintain shrines to the local dragon king. I'm unaware if Chinese Medicine ever identified them as provocative entities causing disease. Still, the resemblance is noteworthy.


Malcolm wrote:
it is similar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 2:21 AM
Title: Re: Cancer in Tibetan Medicine
Content:
Huseng said:
Are nāgā of the same quality as preta? In that they are non-physical?


Malcolm wrote:
Nāgās basically belong to the animal realm. They are shaped like frogs, snakes, fish and tadpoles. They are water spirits. In Tibetan medicine, native tibetan ideas about them had intersected with Indian ideas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 1:53 AM
Title: Re: Guenther
Content:
kirtu said:
I think he was a practitioner for a German academic of his time.
Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
he was not a practitioner in any sense at all. He himself even remarked that his books should not be considered representative of Dzogchen itself in anyway.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 1:48 AM
Title: Re: Cancer in Tibetan Medicine
Content:


kirtu said:
Do the nagas inflict illness on specific people for things they have done or on people less generally in a region or on all people everywhere?

Then how can people pacify the nagas?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
Nāgā provocations are pretty random. If you live in an area where there is severe environmental contamination, nāgā diseases can be wide spread.

If someone thinks they have a problem with nāgā there are many things one can do. There are special nāgā pujas, one can practice garuda,etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 1:30 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
heart said:
Secondly, disrespecting the second largest religion in the world is a threat to freedom of religion.

Malcolm wrote:
Now, this is just talking from fear. In a free society one has the right to criticize whatever one likes.

heart said:
They are attacking the Quran in it self not how it is interpreted.

Malcolm wrote:
In a secular society, religion is not a sacrosanct dimension immune from critical evaluation. I stand by my right to criticize what it says in the Bible, the Koran, or any other damn book I please.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 12:17 AM
Title: Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation
Content:
Nosta said:
After all what exactly is rigpa? Whats the difference between rigpa and nirvana?


Malcolm wrote:
Rigpa is just your knowledge of your primordial state.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, May 26th, 2011 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The US population is mostly Christian. The US Government is not Christian, however. This is well established going back to John Adams, etc.

conebeckham said:
Not entirely clear or well-established, Namdrol...there was no real agreement, and much discussion and debate, about this.  Read Founding Faith.


Malcolm wrote:
It is very well established in US Treaty Law. You will recall that whatever is stated in a treaty is regarded as defacto US Law: Adams' Treaty of Tripoli states:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 11:57 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
Most of the info comes from the movie Angry Monk (2005) a biography of Gendeun Chopel.  There is no mention in the movie about a civil war.

Malcolm wrote:
I was referring to the feudal reaction that was spawned by Chophel leading a nascent democratic movement in Lhasa in the 1940's.


gregkavarnos said:
1993 population statistics show 69% Buddhists, 15% Hindu, 8% Muslim and 8% Christian.  So what is the government based on those stats?

Malcolm wrote:
The US population is mostly Christian. The US Government is not Christian, however. This is well established going back to John Adams, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:


gregkavarnos said:
Of course there are degrees of tyrranical oppression.  But for me the fact that there was a subteranean dungeon for dissenters in the Potala palace says quite a bit about the state of affairs in pre-occupation Tibet.

Malcolm wrote:
No, he was imprisoned on the Sheol jail. Not in an underground dungeon in the Potala. Who is feeding you this nonsense?

gregkavarnos said:
Anyway, do you think that as Tibet moved into its own secular enlightenment it would not have sparked off a civil war between supporters of the theocratic feudal society and progressive democratic forces?

Malcolm wrote:
This was already happening, why do you think Ganden Chophel was tossed in jail?


gregkavarnos said:
Relic or not it was a Buddhist government (and their Tamil enemies) that were responsible for 26 years of civil war and bloodshed (80-100,000 dead, 60,000+ wounded).


Malcolm wrote:
Sri Lanka does not have a Buddhist government. The situation in that country is complicated. This situation resembles Northern Ireland more than anything else.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Cancer in Tibetan Medicine
Content:


Namdrol said:
Cancers, according to common Tibetan medicine, are mainly caused by maldigestion, injuries and disturbances of the humors.

However, there are another class of cancers that are caused by nāgas and so on. So it depends on the type of cancer. Malignant cancers are often considered to be driven by provocations.

rai said:
Would any wrathful yidam practice be a ultimate panacea for all negative provocations or it should be particular deity connected to the class which caused the provocation? For example would you advise someone who is doing practice of Hayagriva to do additional practice of Red Garuda if he has being diagnosed with cancer?

Thank you again!

Malcolm wrote:
Guru Dragphur is a kitchen sink deity for all. Otherwise, Red Garuda is best.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Cancer in Tibetan Medicine
Content:
Namdrol said:
Malignant cancers are often considered to be driven by provocations.

kirtu said:
What are provocations?

Kirt


Malcolm wrote:
When nāgas and so on are provoked, they respond by inflicting illnesses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Namdrol said:
The question remains will Muslims in the long run value a secular society more than a religious one? If so, then there is no worries. If not, then we should be worried. The same thing goes with Fundamentalist Christians in US trying to turn US into a "Christian" nation. There are many places in US where I am not comfortable admitting I am a Buddhist.

N

heart said:
Yes, this is the real problem, protecting the secular state. Freedom of religion within the confines of a secular states laws will in the long run protect the religions from becoming political.

/magnus

Malcolm wrote:
This is what I was trying to point out above. We have a secular tradition in the west brought about first by the Enlightenment and then supplemented by the Scottish Enlightenment based on a long history of documents like the Declaration of Independence, the English Bill of Rights, and so on.

What worries everyone is the strong theocratic tendencies evinced by modern fundamentalists.

I am also suspicious of Buddhist utopian fantasies like the Shambhala mythos which seems tailored right out of Plato's Republic. I am not in favor of rule by so-called philosopher kings. While I love HHDL as a person, the political institution of the Dalai Lamas was a grand failure in every sense of the word for Tibet. The government of Tibet by high lamas proved inadequate to conditions on the ground.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 10:02 PM
Title: Re: Cancer in Tibetan Medicine
Content:
rai said:
Dear Namdrol,

Could you please write something about causes and conditions of cancer according to Tibetan Medicine? Is cancer mainly caused by provocations from one of the 8 classes?

Thank you!

Rai


Malcolm wrote:
Cancers, according to common Tibetan medicine, are mainly caused by maldigestion, injuries and disturbances of the humors.

However, there are another class of cancers that are caused by nāgas and so on. So it depends on the type of cancer. Malignant cancers are often considered to be driven by provocations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 9:38 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Huseng said:
The darker the night, the brighter a spark seems to glow.
Why the pessimism in this regard? You don't think Chinese and Theravada groups in the west are thriving?


Malcolm wrote:
Ethnic Buddhism does not have a future in the West.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
gregkavarnos said:
For all those doubting Buddhists capacity for concentration camps I would recommend anything by, or about, Gendeun Choepel

Malcolm wrote:
Oh come on, the Kashag's imprisonment of Gendun Chophel may have been wrong, but it is a far cry from Dachau.



gregkavarnos said:
(and I won't even go into the Sri Lankan treatment of the Tamil minority).

Malcolm wrote:
Another relic of British Colonialism...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 8:46 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Pero said:
If I remember right, Norbu Rinpoche has a past life memory of him and other dharma practitioners around him at the time being massacred by Muslims. And considering this religious freedom you speak of is not so easily available where Islam reigns I don't think it's hard to understand why he says so. (edit: btw, what I remember is him saying "be careful")
You can't compare him to Ole though. Rinpoche's advice was just to keep one's practice/orientation secret, and I think this was also in general not just because of Muslims, so that people from other religions don't cause problems for you. Ole on the other hand seems to speak with delight about stuff he did to cause problems for Muslims.

heart said:
I am NOT comparing ChNN to Ole. I consider ChNN one of my teachers, since I practice some of his stuff every day. Ole is a bad joke for me.

What I said was that Ole is echoing (and most probably distorting) what some of the older and younger Lamas also say. Even if they are my teacher, like ChNN, I still think that saying these things is something that will threaten religious freedom and a secular society that protect the rights of everyone. Going down that road means opening up concentration camps and doing mass deportations and most possibly a global war. That makes me sad. However I still trust his Dharma teachings. It is a long time since I expected my teachers to be omniscient.

/magnus


Malcolm wrote:
The question remains will Muslims in the long run value a secular society more than a religious one? If so, then there is no worries. If not, then we should be worried. The same thing goes with Fundamentalist Christians in US trying to turn US into a "Christian" nation. There are many places in US where I am not comfortable admitting I am a Buddhist.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 7:37 PM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
The jury is still out about the pretended effectiveness regarding the destruction of Tibetan Buddhism. Only time will tell. Western society fails to deliver many of the conditions that existed in Tibet.

Huseng said:
Outside the Tibetan Buddhist community, Chinese and Theravadan groups seem to be doing reasonably well in western countries.


Malcolm wrote:
The darker the night, the brighter a spark seems to glow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 11:18 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Jangchup Donden said:
You can either beat them with wisdom and compassion...

Namdrol said:
That really did not work too well for Buddhists against the Huns, Hindu Kings, Muslim invaders and the PLA.

N

Jangchup Donden said:
We're still around aren't we?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, scattered like ants when their home is destroyed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 10:12 AM
Title: Re: Lama Ole Nydahl, what do you think?
Content:
Jangchup Donden said:
You can either beat them with wisdom and compassion...

Malcolm wrote:
That really did not work too well for Buddhists against the Huns, Hindu Kings, Muslim invaders and the PLA.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 10:07 AM
Title: Re: How does pleasure arise?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
So, are you saying that the things we experience are pleasant,  unpleasant, and neutral , or that in our mind the experience is pleasant,  unpleasant, and neutral (because of our own karma)?

Malcolm wrote:
Our sensations of phenomena are pleasant, painful or neutral because of our past actions.

All sensations are a ripening of action.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 5:04 AM
Title: Re: Spreading the Dharma in Africa?
Content:


Luke said:
Buddhists need to remember to care about all races of people.  The desire to help liberate ALL beings from sufferings shouldn't just be mere words we recite.
.

Malcolm wrote:
If Africa as a place has the merit to support Dharma, then it will flourish there. If not, then not.

N


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 3:03 AM
Title: Re: H.H. Sakya Trizin - Cambridge, MA
Content:
Namdrol said:
He will give the lung for these prayers, and an empowerment of Padmasambhava, cycle TBD.

mr. gordo said:
Do you know which long life empowerment will be given on the last day?

Malcolm wrote:
From Thanthong Gyalpo


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, May 25th, 2011 at 2:52 AM
Title: Re: How does pleasure arise?
Content:
catmoon said:
Consider the blazing hot food some people enjoy so much.

Consider the rugby player enjoying his rough and frequently painful game.

Or consider that there are people who actually dislike chocolate.

The pleasure and the torment are all in the mind. One way or another we choose it to be as it is.

Malcolm wrote:
The sensations of pleasure and pain from all of these activities are solely the ripening of karma and nothing else.

Karma of course begins with intention, but it ripens on both mind and body.

N


