﻿Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Kai lord said:
The gap between thoughts is a rather popular meditative tactics for the Theravadins as demonstrated below.
Space Around Thoughts

Take that simple sentence, “I am,” and begin to notice, contemplate, and reflect on the space around those two words. Rather than looking for something else, sustain attention on the space around the words. Look at thinking itself, really examining and investigating it. Now you can’t watch yourself habitually thinking, because as soon as you notice that you’re thinking, the thinking stops. You might be going along worrying, “I wonder if this will happen. What if that happens … mumble, mumble. Oh, I’m thinking,” and it stops.

To examine the thinking process, deliberately think something: take just one ordinary thought like “I am a human being,” and just look at it. If you look at the beginning of it, you can see that just before you say, “I,” there is a kind of empty space. Then, if you think in your mind, “I – am – a – human – being,” you will see space between the words. We are not looking at thought to see whether we have intelligent thoughts or stupid ones. Instead, we are deliberately thinking in order to notice the space around each thought. This way, we begin to have a perspective on the impermanent nature of thinking.

This is just a way of investigating, so that we can notice the emptiness when there is no thought in the mind. Try to focus on that space; see if you can concentrate on that space before and after a thought. For how long can you do it? Think, “I am a human being,” and just before you start thinking it, stay in that space just before you say it. Now that’s mindfulness isn’t it? Your mind is empty but there is also an intention to think a particular thought. Then think it; and at the end of the thought, try to stay in the space at the end. Does your mind stay empty?

Most of our suffering comes from habitual thinking. If we try to stop it out of aversion to thinking, we can’t; we just go on and on and on. So the important thing is not to get rid of thought, but to understand it. And we do this by concentrating on the space in the mind, rather than on the thoughts.....
Some even name that gap as "Bhavanga" but again its being disputed.

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of meditation is well, based on mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 10:13 PM
Title: Re: The different types of "Buddha"
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
there is no way to know someones true realization, according to different dharmas there are different 'ultimate' realizations and, finally, we don't know really if there is another dharma unknown to us somewhere that leads to another unknown higher realization. do we?

Aemilius said:
There is a teaching about Buddha Vairocana, which says that he holds in his lap a begging bowl, which contains a lotus flower. In this lotus flower there is speck of pollen, which contains the three realms (kamadhatu, rupadhatu and arupyadhatu) of our world system.

Malcolm wrote:
Vairocanajñānasagara (rnam par snang mzad ye shes gang chen tsho), the cosmic sambhogkāya, holds in his hand the world system called Kusumatalagarbha (adorned with flowers on the periphery and in the center), and in this  Kusumatalagarbha, one can locate the Sahaloka.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
How can there be a gap between partless mind moments that have no duration?

Lingpupa said:
I think this is a category error, or at least something of that sort. Perhaps just a word game. How can (at most putative) partless mind moments that have no duration amount to any apparent time at all?
I doubt that the calculus of infinitesimals can get us out of that one, The statement is more in the realm of the famous "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously".

Malcolm wrote:
Not at all. Time depends on objects that are perceived, not the duration of a moment of mind itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 11:11 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
krodha said:
Patrul Rinpoche is not referring to the actual dharmakāya, per Ju Mipham:
From the perspective of the mode of appearance, the basis itself never ripens as the result, and since that non-ripening is not the actual dharmakāya, since this present basis is not the buddhahood that manifest the ten powers from the mere cause of the dharmakāya, it may be considered that “dharmakāya of the basis” is not "the actual one.”
Dharmakāya cannot be encountered between thoughts. Norbu Rinpoche was critical of the misconception that there was any benefit to investigating the alleged gap between thoughts at all. Even Zen masters like Huineng reject the idea of a gap between thoughts.

nyamlae said:
That's a great quote, thanks for sharing. What text is it from?

krodha said:
I’m not sure. It is Malcolm’s translation.

Malcolm wrote:
It's from Mipham's Original Mind (gnyug ma sems). Here is the rest of the citation:

When the appearance of the basis arises, when one arrives at the liberation of the initial state of original purity, since realization is manifest buddhahood, the ten powers are actualized. Therefore, though the qualities of non-abiding nirvana such as the ten powers and so on exist in the basis exist as a primordial endowment, other than those who have reached the ultimate realization, buddhas, when even the bodhisattvas of the tenth bhumi cannot see the manifestation of all qualities, what need is there to mention ordinary sentient beings? That being so, the difference between all the qualities of the basis being manifestly apparent or nonapparent is not from perspective of just the basis. [4/a] It is necessary to make a distinction in dependence on the appearances of a buddha, one who realizes the basis just as it is, and a sentient being, the one who does not realize that. That original basis that does not change at the time of either samsara or nirvana is “original” [gnyug ma]. Both the delusion and liberation which arise from its potentiality (rtsal) are adventitious. When there is no stirring from the basis, neither samsara nor nirvana appear.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: how to please Jñanasattva
Content:
heart said:
I am not in any way diminishing the deity. I say that as a great fan of deity practice, all kinds actually. I did a kriya yoga practice every day for three months recently.

ThreeVows said:
Generally speaking, I think there are two common ways people conceive of yidam deities. One is that they are external, existent beings. The other is that they are basically an inner archetype of one's own mind.

Malcolm wrote:
Then there is a third way, understanding that a yidam is method of transforming the basis of purification (one's impure aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements) with the purifier (the sadhana's pure visualizations with mantras, mudra, samadhi) into the result of purification—the three kāyas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 3:01 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:



Jules 09 said:
It can be recognized in that gap.

heart said:
and only in the gap?

amanitamusc said:
Mind the gap.

Malcolm wrote:
what gap?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 2:18 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Yes, the hetawa moment of shock breaks the continuous linking of one thought to the next, thus creating a gap in which one's intrinsic nature, the sugatagharba, re-cognizes itself.

Malcolm wrote:
So the dharmakāya is in this gap?

Jules 09 said:
It can be recognized in that gap.

Malcolm wrote:
How can there be a gap between partless mind moments that have no duration?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: direct introduction in EU?
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
You appear to assume I do not know what the winter is like there.

Malcolm wrote:
I can think of nicer areas to spend winter in Italy, but being a 40 minute drive from Montalcino is a plus, and there are a lot of hot springs around there.
That's a little too esoteric for me. ???


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 2:09 AM
Title: Re: direct introduction in EU?
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
You appear to assume I do not know what the winter is like there.

Malcolm wrote:
I can think of nicer areas to spend winter in Italy, but being a 40 minute drive from Montalcino is a plus, and there are a lot of hot springs around Mt. Amiata.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: how to please Jñanasattva
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Outer objects do exist conventionally.

ThreeVows said:
As do pure lands.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe. Ever seen one? Or are you just repeating something on hearsay?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: direct introduction in EU?
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
Mountains in wintertime. I am an avid fan, but YMMV.

Malcolm wrote:
It's cold, wet, and the houses are poorly heated and cold. It is not like there is a lot of snow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, April 7th, 2023 at 12:55 AM
Title: Re: how to please Jñanasattva
Content:
heart said:
“HUNG! The Three Roots of the bodhichitta of natural awareness
Do not exist anywhere but in the state indivisible from myself.
Within it, all the mandalas of victorious ones are complete.
I naturally confirm this in the primordially uncontrived state.”

Excerpt From
Guru's Heart Practices: Texts for Dispeller of Obstacles
Rangjung Yeshe Publications

ThreeVows said:
A dream tonight of talking to a gardener doesn't exist anywhere but in the state indisivible from yourself. A dream tonight of being a vast, cosmic god, interacting with an entire world-system filled with beings doesn't exist anywhere but in the state indivisible from yourself. You writing on the computer on Dharmawheel doesn't exist anywhere but in the state indivisible from yourself. Your entire conception of yourself, of your body and mind, doesn't exist anywhere but in the state indivisible from yourself. Experiences of yidams and pure lands doesn't exist anywhere but in the state indivisible from yourself. You meeting with your guru and him or her answering your questions doesn't exist anywhere but in the state indivisible from yourself.

Malcolm wrote:
Solpsism at worst, idealism at best. Outer objects do exist conventionally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2023 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: how to please Jñanasattva
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
plainly said. is there a way to please Jñanasattva?

Malcolm wrote:
Is the jñānasatva something apart from your primordial state?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2023 at 8:29 PM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:
Aemilius said:
attained liberation.
Here with commentary http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas1p2_2.asp.html

Malcolm wrote:
Vimokṣa is not bodhi.

For example, here http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas1p2_13.asp.html states that the devarāja Sakra attain vimokṣa, but everyone knows that Indra is just a mundane deity and is not included in the Mahāyāna Sangha refuge.

Aemilius said:
Taking refuge is an important step on the buddhist path. But everyone knows that after that there come more advanced stages of the path, in which you develop and attain knowledge and vision of reality. This is more ofthen than not quite different from the stage of taking refuge. These more advanced stages have been described in many ways in the sutras, upadesas and commentaries. For example, you don't have to conceptualize any being as "samsaric", if you see that everything is from the start in a state of eternal peace or nirvana. You should not insist that "samsara exists objectively", because it doesn't. "Samsara" is only one of  several possible views of reality. There are other, far more advanced, views and experiences of reality.

"There is not even a very subtle, slight difference between samsara and nirvana", Arya Nagarjuana (in Mula Madhyamaka Karika).

Malcolm wrote:
What a hilariously misguided attempt at oneupsmanship.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2023 at 8:24 PM
Title: Re: direct introduction in EU?
Content:
august said:
Wife and kids are also  not excited about wasting a week in a tiny Italian town in middle of nowhere and absolutely nothing to do.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Arcidosso and pretty much everything within, say, 50 km from Merigar, are some of the absolutely loveliest places I have ever been to. It is a dreamrealm, and one still presided over by ChNN. Could I live anywhere I wanted, I would be spending the rest of my days there. Just saying...

Malcolm wrote:
It’s pretty grim there in the winter, so I’ve been told.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, April 6th, 2023 at 6:15 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:


Jules 09 said:
Yes, the hetawa moment of shock breaks the continuous linking of one thought to the next, thus creating a gap in which one's intrinsic nature, the sugatagharba, re-cognizes itself.

Malcolm wrote:
So the dharmakāya is in this gap?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2023 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: The Effects of Antipsychotics on Subtle Wind.
Content:
Shantivanam said:
Generally within the Tibetan presentation, I think all prāṇa are considered rlung (which is their word for wind). I suppose in Sanskrit, this is vāyu. I understand how this equivocation can be confusing.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not at all confusing. What I am saying is that there are more than just vata dosha (vāyu) involved here; there is also sadhaka pitta, which is located in the brain, as well as tarpaka kapha. All of these are involved in mental health issues, not just vata


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2023 at 10:59 AM
Title: Re: The view that Vajrayana path is the higher part -- Is this conventional view, or quite an actual one?
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
I.e. if someone try to practice yidam

Malcolm wrote:
define a long time.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2023 at 10:28 AM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:
PeterC said:
Even the 84 (which is just a list from a pure vision) included people with significant responsibilities who lived outwardly completely conventional lives - kings, scholars, blue collar workers, etc.  The unconventional ones were in the minority on that particular list.

Malcolm wrote:
And there are two lists, which only partially match up.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, April 5th, 2023 at 2:03 AM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Yuck!

PeterC said:
You object to the principle?  Why?

treehuggingoctopus said:
I cannot say I was entirely serious. I mean Occam's razor is not exactly applicable to this situation, is it? Unless we trivialise it brutally.

But of course Occam's razor is a rationality like all rationalities -- one whose adoption is not in itself rational. Is it useful? Yes, in some contexts, for sure. But useful does not mean it is a universal principle, of course. Anyway, this is



Malcolm wrote:
In terms of people, it applies. If a teacher or anyone, for that matter behave in ways that appear to be harmful, it is rational to suppose their behavior actually harmed someone or something. It isn't simply a matter of people behaving in unexpected ways, since that happens all the time. "Crazy wisdom" has been reified into an idea of skillful means where a student's boundaries are tested for their own good in various ways (which usually, when women students are involved, includes demands of sexual favors and so on).

I just have never seen this type of behavior from a teacher to actually benefit anyone. I have seen people gaslight themselves into believing it was an amazing experience, but in truth, I think they are all kidding themselves.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2023 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
And this assumes that such a person has the wisdom to know what a student will later find "healing." I just do not have much confidence that this generation of younger lamas really are the "real deal" in this respect. I am quite sure they can given teachings and empowerments, etc., but how many of them are really vratacāryins, brtul zhugs pas? I would wager, virtually none, none at least who are teaching in English today. Lamas like Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje, etc., are impossible to find these days.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Your wager has an impossible scope. You are evaluating  the qualities of not only the people you have never met, but of the people you do not even know to exist. This is an epic overkill.

Malcolm wrote:
Occam's razor.

treehuggingoctopus said:
I understand your concern, and I am inclined to share your conviction that all the talk about crazy wisdom may be doing us Westerners more harm than good.

Malcolm wrote:
What I am concerned about is that people use the idea of "crazy wisdom" to gaslight themselves into believing that some teacher's obvious personality disorder is coming from a place of insight and wisdom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2023 at 6:48 AM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Not necessarily. A word about quirky acts tends to spread very fast, even if there is not very much to chew on in the end.

I do not think it the miracle simile hits the spot. In my experience, the distance between a crook and someone who finds themselves employing unconventional behavior for the sake of their students is palpable. But the discussion may indeed be too abstract.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, the miracle simile directly hits the point. In general, if a guru who is inclined to act "unconventionally" cannot exhibit even minor siddhis, well...it is best they behave like normal people.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Well, the assumption is that you must be the real deal to play that game.  So sure, no disagreement here.

Malcolm wrote:
And this assumes that such a person has the wisdom to know what a student will later find "healing." I just do not have much confidence that this generation of younger lamas really are the "real deal" in this respect. I am quite sure they can given teachings and empowerments, etc., but how many of them are really vratacāryins, brtul zhugs pas? I would wager, virtually none, none at least who are teaching in English today. Lamas like Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje, etc., are impossible to find these days.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2023 at 3:22 AM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
It is not a routine thing, it is not reactive, it is not automatic, and, crucially, it is not something that actually hurts one -- the crux is that it heals, though this may be understood only later.

Malcolm wrote:
Usually lamas who develop a reputation for unconventional behavior are pretty routine, no?

treehuggingoctopus said:
Not necessarily. A word about quirky acts tends to spread very fast, even if there is not very much to chew on in the end.

I do not think it the miracle simile hits the spot. In my experience, the distance between a crook and someone who finds themselves employing unconventional behavior for the sake of their students is palpable. But the discussion may indeed be too abstract.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, the miracle simile directly hits the point. In general, if a guru who is inclined to act "unconventionally" cannot exhibit even minor siddhis, well...it is best they behave like normal people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2023 at 2:20 AM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
It is not a routine thing, it is not reactive, it is not automatic, and, crucially, it is not something that actually hurts one -- the crux is that it heals, though this may be understood only later.

Malcolm wrote:
Usually lamas who develop a reputation for unconventional behavior are pretty routine, no?

It's one thing to overlook some quirks in the behavior of one's teachers, quite another to justify them as "crazy wisdom" or evidence of awakened conduct.

See, we are not specifying specific acts here, we are only speaking in abstract.

At best we are left with St. Paul's definition of a miracle.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, April 4th, 2023 at 1:37 AM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
That said, there clearly is a style of some lay Nyingma lamas which is wild, unconventional and uncontrollable...

Malcolm wrote:
At least that is how they are able to employ their personality disorders for fun and profit.

treehuggingoctopus said:
No, really, I do not mean that.

It is obvious that what I wrote about can abused. It is obvious that there are predatory charlatans that will use it as an excuse to indulge their sadistic games.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is most of the time, IMO.

And I feel you may be overlooking the performative behavior, which may have a cultural context among Tibetans, but it lacking among westerners. (And if I hear that goddamn story about Naropa and the shoe one more time...)

I have a problem with the lionization of aberrant behavior among western students.

A lot of western students want their lamas to be Dudjom Lingpa, or Do Khyentse, but in reality, they are better off with someone who is kind and considerate, shows up on time, and does not put then through emotional roller coasters.

In Tibetan culture, a lot of "lama" behavior gets swept under the rug for social reasons, the same reasons that Catholic priests were able to abuse children for centuries with impunity, simply put, there is a distinct power differential, and especially considering that there was never a more than 15% literacy rate in pre-modern Tibet, with a very small fraction of that being literate women, well, you can see my point. I have encountered more than one lama whose behavior fits the very definition of a personality disorders.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2023 at 11:05 PM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
That said, there clearly is a style of some lay Nyingma lamas which is wild, unconventional and uncontrollable...

Malcolm wrote:
At least that is how they are able to employ their personality disorders for fun and profit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2023 at 9:58 AM
Title: Re: Crazy Wisdom Question
Content:
Kai lord said:
Yeah Tibetan Buddhists generally don't use term like "crazy wisdom", they simply call it yogic conduct or conduct of Mahasiddhas which simply mean if one is not a Mahasiddha then there are no reasons for anyone to behave like  them.

No surprise that even Dalai lama is puzzled by the modern westernised term.

Malcolm wrote:
The concept was explicitly linked by Trungpa to Dorje Drollo’s behavior.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2023 at 7:36 AM
Title: Re: The Effects of Antipsychotics on Subtle Wind.
Content:
Shantivanam said:
Hello,

I have often heard or read that psychedelics can be very disturbing to a person's subtle wind. I have also heard that they can "open" a person's subtle system to other sentient beings, to the point of "spirit harm." However, I do not know how this precisely functions in the case of spirit harm. How can drugs open a person?

Conversely, I have heard that practitioners seeking to mitigate these negative effects (spirit harm) may engage in mantra, meditation, and even devotion. In the most extreme cases, I have heard that pracitioners will resort to the use of antipsychotics, but how does this function?

My present model for the function of antipsychotics is that the serotonin and dopamine systems are in a feedback loop with a person's wind. When a person disturbs them through psychedelic experimentation and contact with other spirits, that person may have an experience of never coming down (Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder [HPPD] or even Schizophrenia). Through the use of an antipsychotic, users are effectively rebalancing their serotonin and dopamine systems to a more baseline state, which has a corresponding effect in the subtle system.

Do you think people can have an abnormal subtle wind pattern which makes them vulnerable to spirit harm? Do you also think this abnormal wind pattern can find some of its causal underpinnings in imbalanced neurotransmitters?

Trying to understand this theoretically...

Thanks so much.

Malcolm wrote:
There is more going on than just vata, there are also pitta and kapha components.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2023 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: Classic and colloquial Tibetan
Content:
nyamlae said:
People like to approach verse as if it has no grammar, but this is kind of irresponsible.

Malcolm wrote:
Yup, it is. It makes for very poor translations, especially of Dzogchen texts.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2023 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: fastest growing "religion"
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
OK thanks Malcolm

Malcolm wrote:
I see this word "nihilism" bandied about by Buddhists as if they are clear about what the term means. This is largely a result of its misuse by Tibetan teachers who write in English. Nihilism is in fact moral skepticism: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skepticism-moral/

The term in Sanskrit for people who do not believe in rebirth is ucchedavāda, "the advocation of cutting off." This is the philosophical view of the Carvaka school in ancient India. Often accused of harboring nihilist convictions, such materialists are not necessarily bereft of ethical concerns. For example, take Epicurus:
Most prominent among the negative mental states is fear, above all the fear of unreal dangers, such as death. Death, Epicurus insists, is nothing to us, since while we exist, our death is not, and when our death occurs, we do not exist (LM 124–25); but if one is frightened by the empty name of death, the fear will persist since we must all eventually die. This fear is one source of perturbation (tarakhê), and is a worse curse than physical pain itself; the absence of such fear is ataraxy, lack of perturbation, and ataraxy, together with freedom from physical pain, is one way of specifying the goal of life, for Epicurus.

...

Epicurus held that a wise man would feel the torture of a friend no less than his own, and would die for a friend rather than betray him, for otherwise his own life would be confounded (VS 56–57). These are powerfully altruistic sentiments for a philosopher who posits as the unique goal in life happiness based on freedom from physical pain and mental anxiety. Epicurus could justify such an attitude by the same prudential calculus that he uses to argue in favor of living justly: only by living in such a way that loyalty to friends is perceived to be a consummate value will one be able to feel secure in one’s friends, and thus maximize one’s felicity. Yet this does not seem quite what Epicurus means when he says that “friendship [or love] had its beginning as a result of utility, but is to be chosen [or is a virtue, if we follow the manuscript reading] for its own sake”
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epicurus/

Or we have the Confucians and Neo-confucians, who certainly do not accept rebirth, but who have a highly developed moral system of ethics:
Zhu Xi’s methodology for achieving perspicacity (ming) in ethical judgment and “appropriateness” (yi) in practice can be summed up in his call to investigate things to extend knowledge (gewu zhizhi). Zhu advocated this methodology to stress the need for people, as prospective moral agents, to notice the fine details, the distinguishing features of particular situations and to fashion on that basis the most discerning, appropriate response. These distinguishing features can suggest alternative moral considerations to be weighed (Pincoffs 1986). This call lay behind Zhu’s promotion of the Great Learning (Daxue) and call for life-long learning and moral reflection in a bid to achieve a modicum of objectivity and break free of the moral intuitionism and resultant subjectivism typical of Neo-Confucians of his generation.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/zhu-xi/#InvThiForEthDisPra


Finally, HH Dalai Lama says:
Today, however, any religion-based answer to the problem of our neglect of inner values can never be universal, and so will be inadequate. What we need today is an approach to ethics which makes no recourse to religion and can be equally acceptable to those with faith and those without: a secular ethics.

...

To my mind, although humans can manage without religion, they cannot manage without inner values. So my argument for the independence of ethics from religion is quite simple. As I see it, spirituality has two dimensions. The first dimension, that of basic spiritual well-being—by which I mean inner mental and emotional strength and balance—does not depend on religion but comes from our innate human nature as beings with a natural disposition toward compassion, kindness, and caring for others. The second dimension is what may be considered religion-based spirituality, which is acquired from our upbringing and culture and is tied to particular beliefs and practices. The difference between the two is something like the difference between water and tea. Ethics and inner values without religious content are like water, something we need every day for health and survival. Ethics and inner values based in a religious context are more like tea. The tea we drink is mostly composed of water, but it also contains some other ingredients—tea leaves, spices, perhaps some sugar or, at least in Tibet, salt—and this makes it more nutritious and sustaining and something we want every day. But however the tea is prepared, the primary ingredient is always water. While we can live without tea, we can’t live without water. Likewise we are born free of religion, but we are not born free of the need for compassion.
Lama, Dalai . Beyond Religion: Ethics for a Whole World . Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2023 at 1:46 AM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Vimokṣa is not bodhi.

For example, here http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas1p2_13.asp.html states that the devarāja Sakra attain vimokṣa, but everyone knows that Indra is just a mundane deity and is not included in the Mahāyāna Sangha refuge.

jmlee369 said:
Does that imply that he is part of the Hinayana sangha? In https://suttacentral.net/dn21/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin one of the Sakras who met Buddha is explicitly said to be a stream enterer, and also features accounts of devas practising and gaining some kind of realisation.

Malcolm wrote:
Specifically it says that two gandharvas, who been śrāmaneras in their past life, attained the form realm heaven called Brahmapurohita. But the sutta does not claim they attain awakening. Walsh seems to think that it is implied, noting that it is generally considered impossible for nonhumans to attain bodhi. See footnote 600 in the his translation of the Long Discourses.

Also, with regard to Indra's claim of stream entry, it is not really clear that Buddha assents to this claim. On footnote 619, Walsh point out that the six reasons implies that Sakra must take rebirth again as a human being in order to attain awakening, and doubt must be held out that Sakra actually attained stream entry because of this passage:
And if awakening should arise
as I practice according to the method,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2023 at 1:01 AM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:
jimmi said:
Why is it important to know if devas can or cannot attain enlightenment? What does it suggest about the possibilities of our own human situation if they can, or cannot?

Malcolm wrote:
The general idea is that devas have no incentive to practice the Dharma because their lives are too easy. That's why Nāgārjuna classes birth as a deva among the eight kinds of birth where one has a lack of freedom.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, April 3rd, 2023 at 12:56 AM
Title: Re: fastest growing "religion"
Content:


Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
I don't class Buddhists as Atheists I'm talking about the dangers of nihilism these days

Malcolm wrote:
Absence of metaphysical convictions does not equal absence of ethical and social concerns, in fact, it can make them more compelling.

Arguably, if one requires a theory of karmic retribution, for example, to drive one’s ethical conduct, one’s moral fiber is fairly weak and self-involved.

Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
I don't personally I don't know how you derived that from pointing out the dangers of nihilism

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think it is far to claim that atheists are more at risk of nihilism than theists or buddhists, etc.

Annihilationism, the belief that there is no result of actions in the next world, does not entail the consequence that people with such beliefs are at risk of abandoning moral constraints. Kant's categorical imperative, for example, does not depend on fear of future retribution. Kant, it is argued, was an atheist. Yet his moral philosophy is quite subtle and interesting:
Kant holds that the fundamental principle of our moral duties is a categorical imperative. It is an imperative because it is a command addressed to agents who could follow it but might not (e.g. , “Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.”). It is categorical in virtue of applying to us unconditionally, or simply because we possesses rational wills, without reference to any ends that we might or might not have. It does not, in other words, apply to us on the condition that we have antecedently adopted some goal for ourselves.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-moral/#CatHypImp

In my personal experience, Buddhists are no more likely to behave morally than nonBuddhists. For example, the 17th Karmapa recently paid millions of dollars to silence a women who accused him of raping and impregnating her.

And when Buddhist teachers talk about why we should behave ethically, it is never discussed in terms of behaving ethically for its own sake, and invariably because of the personal consequences of behaving immorally, such as taking birth in lower realms—this is what I mean when I say religious ethics are self-involved, they invariably turn on admittance to heaven or higher realms as the desirable result of behaving morally.

Kant's point is that morality and freedom go together, and are an end in themselves, separate from goals we imagine for ourselves.

Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
to act morally is to exercise freedom, and the only way to fully exercise freedom is to act morally.

Malcolm wrote:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant/#MorFre

Kant contrasts the categorical imperative mentioned above what he calls the hypothetical imperative, for example, avoiding breaking Buddhist vows in order to ensure a higher rebirth:
A hypothetical imperative is a principle of rationality that says I should act in a certain way if I choose to satisfy some desire.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant/#MorFre


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2023 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Vimokṣa is not bodhi.

For example, here http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas1p2_13.asp.html states that the devarāja Sakra attain vimokṣa, but everyone knows that Indra is just a mundane deity and is not included in the Mahāyāna Sangha refuge.

jmlee369 said:
Does that imply that he is part of the Hinayana sangha? In https://suttacentral.net/dn21/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin one of the Sakras who met Buddha is explicitly said to be a stream enterer, and also features accounts of devas practising and gaining some kind of realisation.

Malcolm wrote:
A stream entrant is someone who must return to desire realm, but no where is it claimed they must return as a human being.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2023 at 11:29 AM
Title: Re: fastest growing "religion"
Content:


Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
I don't class Buddhists as Atheists I'm talking about the dangers of nihilism these days

Malcolm wrote:
Absence of metaphysical convictions does not equal absence of ethical and social concerns, in fact, it can make them more compelling.

Arguably, if one requires a theory of karmic retribution, for example, to drive one’s ethical conduct, one’s moral fiber is fairly weak and self-involved.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2023 at 4:56 AM
Title: Re: fastest growing "religion"
Content:
climb-up said:
I don’t think he’s correct. I think that he’s projecting his own new-atheist view onto the numbers, but, I believe, that the “nones,” are referring to organized religious affiliation.  I think the numbers reflect a lot of “spiritual but not religious,” and many many beliefs that do not correspond to his reductionist materialist idea.

Also, he really comes across as an asshole (in my humble opinion).  The “atheist day,” is reflective of the new atheist have-it-both-ways idea. When told that they are being fundamentalists, many public atheists will say “no, not at all, it’s just a lack of particular beliefs and can’t be judged that way,” but then, they will treat it as a belief system when it benefits them. Of course, new-atheism is a belief system, because what it affirms to be objective truth includes many unproven assumptions of reductionist materialism. …which is why most of the “nones,” are not on Bill Maher’s side.

Malcolm wrote:
Beyond that, Bill Maher is an asshole.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2023 at 3:24 AM
Title: Re: fastest growing "religion"
Content:
Queequeg said:
If the idea of God or gods, or the rejection of God or gods, never figured at all, then the person is outside of that theist/atheist dichotomy.

Malcolm wrote:
I was raised in an atheist family. We never talked about God, Jesus, or the absence of such beings. It simply wasn't part of my upbringing.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2023 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:
Queequeg said:
So, then they need someone on that team to flip. That's what they finally have - someone flipped. Probably Cohen, but probably others as well.

Malcolm wrote:
Weisselberg+.

Queequeg said:
You're just a sour disposition, my man.

Malcolm wrote:
yup.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, April 2nd, 2023 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:
Nemo said:
You don't understand how things work. Got it.

Malcolm wrote:
You are a victim of too many conspiracy theories, got it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2023 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:
Nemo said:
I'm afraid when it comes to the PKK I have much more knowledge than you will ever have. I have dealt with them personally and even dated a member. I started a local winter clothing drive for Kurdish kids in the contested areas. The Canadian Armed Forces funded and trained the PKK for a short time. You are the quintessential American talking out of their ass.

https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/war-on-terror/terrorist-pkkypgs-black-market-oil-company-unmasked

Malcolm wrote:
The PKK is not the USA.

Talk about far fetched.

Anyway:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2023 at 7:48 PM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:
Nemo said:
Hooray. The narcissistic con man is being prosecuted by a Democrat DA.

Malcolm wrote:
Democratic DA; “democrat” is a noun, not an adjective.

Nemo said:
and the sadistic war criminal can be President instead.

Malcolm wrote:
Leading a country, any country, involves engaging in nonvirtuous deeds.

Nemo said:
Buddhists shedding no tears over war crimes and stealing resources.



Malcolm wrote:
You actually believe the US extracted oil from Syria? You should stop listening to Russian propaganda.


Nemo said:
Happily celebrating them. Americans are sick. A country run by used car salesmen who hate books and are descended from slavers.

Malcolm wrote:
Biden used to teach constitutional law. You’re so far left, you’ve wound up on the far right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2023 at 9:18 AM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:
Aemilius said:
Vimukti is the freedom from or release of the fetters and hindrances.

Malcolm wrote:
So your assertion is that Sakra is an awakened person?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2023 at 3:17 AM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:
Nemo said:
Trump;
-assassinated Iran's General Soleimani

Malcolm wrote:
No tears over that one

Nemo said:
-launched coup & failed invasion of Venezuela

Malcolm wrote:
No tears over that one. Could have handled it better.

Nemo said:
-oversaw Bolivia coup

Malcolm wrote:
No tears over that one. Bolivia's governments, both left and right, suffer from endemic corruption. But, the CIA is really pretty incompetent at regime change.

Nemo said:
-backed Nicaragua coup attempt

Malcolm wrote:
No tears over that one.

Nemo said:
-boasted of stealing Syria's oil

Malcolm wrote:
Assad is just as bad as Putin.

Nemo said:
-continued Afghanistan War

Malcolm wrote:
Suppose you are happy with the Taliban running things there now?

Nemo said:
-expanded war on Yemen

Malcolm wrote:
That war was started by the Houthis.

Nemo said:
Indicted for;
Paying a prostitute hush money over an event in 2006

Malcolm wrote:
No. He is being indicted for felonies related to business fraud.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, April 1st, 2023 at 3:02 AM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You mean the one where you get mugged a lot?


Sādhaka said:
Or personally I’d rather run an risk of getting mugged by bandits in old Tibet than merely-existing as an wage-slave subjected to identity-politics, big-pharma, monsanto/bayer toxins etc. in contemporary ‘babylon’.

Malcolm wrote:
So, you are saying that you exist as a wage slave subjected  to identity-politics, big-pharma, monsanto/bayer toxins etc. in contemporary ‘babylon’?

Life must really suck for you. Speaking of paradises, Australia and New Zealand are pretty awesome. Just got back from Australia, great place, nice people, no Trump (or Biden, if one happens to think ill of him).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2023 at 10:42 PM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:
Natan said:
Trump ushered in a level of instability that has many countries applying for BRICS. Saudi Arabia looks to have oil bought in Yuan by August which will be gold backed.

Malcolm wrote:
That will not work out well for them. The gold standard was abandoned by the US because it creates inflexibility in the economy.

Natan said:
I for one am very happy I left that dystopian hellscape for a tropical paradise.

Malcolm wrote:
You mean the one where you get mugged a lot?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2023 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:
Aemilius said:
attained liberation.
Here with commentary http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas1p2_2.asp.html

Malcolm wrote:
Vimokṣa is not bodhi.

For example, here http://www.cttbusa.org/fas1/fas1p2_13.asp.html states that the devarāja Sakra attain vimokṣa, but everyone knows that Indra is just a mundane deity and is not included in the Mahāyāna Sangha refuge.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2023 at 9:35 PM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Hm…. Then there’s this:





I guess we’ll see what happens

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, antisemitism seems to have been normalized in GOP circles, Soros is the new Rothschild.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2023 at 9:31 AM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:
conebeckham said:
…he’s largely responsible for January 6th but I am less certain they have clear evidence to indict on that one.


Sādhaka said:
If he was part of that plan himself, then they wouldn’t want to bring attention to it by indicting him on it.

Anyhow, tabloid bs: Trump and an pornstar.

Really people?

Much more important issues, there are.

“Trump didn’t kill himself?”

Malcolm wrote:
Fantasy: Trump and an pornstar.

Reality: 30+ plus felony counts related to business fraud.

https://www.mediaite.com/crime/just-in-cnn-reports-trump-has-been-criminally-indicted-on-whopping-34-counts/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2023 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: Trump indicted
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 31st, 2023 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga as the highest tantra or vehicle
Content:
Nalanda said:
Historically, is there an agreement within Tibetan Buddhism that Atiyoga OR Anuttarayoga are the highest of the systems they follow?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Nalanda said:
If there is an agreement amongst Tibetan Buddhists that there is the highest practice within their school, how is it then that many practiced Maha and Anu (or Kriya / Carya) tantra?

Malcolm wrote:
Lam rim.

Nalanda said:
Did everyone know that the practices they are doing are inferior? How did temples and monks justify the long retreats, the laborious practices, sometimes grueling and punitive fasting while at the same time knowing these are just lower practices?

Malcolm wrote:
Lam rim.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 30th, 2023 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:


Aemilius said:
If Devas could not become enlightened, why would they appear in the audience of Mahayana sutras and be recipients of the Mahayana sutras? And why would Shakyamuni be called Teacher of Gods and Humans in the Tripitaka?

Malcolm wrote:
Is everyone who appears in the retinue of a Mahayana sutra awakened or not?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 30th, 2023 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Qigong / Chinese Alchemy in East Asian Mahayana Buddhism?
Content:


stong gzugs said:
Also, Śaṅkarācārya may have lived up to 1,000 years after the earliest Upanisads were composed.

Malcolm wrote:
More like 1500, if we take the earliest composition circa 800 BCE. Śankara is circa 700 CE.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 30th, 2023 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:


Vajrasambhava said:
Is there a particular reason why is it possible to attain Buddhahood only in human form?
Maybe a physical or mental reason...

Malcolm wrote:
We have the right mixture of happiness and suffering to form an ideal condition for attaining the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2023 at 10:51 PM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:
Aemilius said:
The Avatamsaka sutra Chapter three, The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, decribes how numerous kinds of celestial beings and many different kinds of nonhuman beings have attained liberation from samsara and how they help beings in countless different ways:

"Moreover, Celestial King Contentment gained a passage into liberation of encountering the turning of the wheel of Perfect Teaching each time a Buddha appears in the world.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not mean they attained awakening in each case, for example, this being attains the liberation (vimokṣa) of encountering the Dharma. There are many different kinds of beings and different kinds of liberation mentioned, until we come to the bodhisattvas. But there are many kinds of low level devas mentioned in these lists, forest devas, etc.

Aemilius said:
Devas live for thousands, hundred thousands and millions of years. They have a longer span of memory than humans, this is attested in the sutras, that they can remember events even from previous kalpas.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is all true, but they still do not have a precious human birth. All Buddhas are human beings.

The Suhṛllekha states:

Birth as one holding wrong views, as animals, pretas, and hell beings, 
as one without the teaching of the victor, or in a border country,
birth as a barbarian, as one stupid and dumb,
or birth as any of the long-lived gods
are the eight faults of lacking freedom. 
Having acquired the freedom that is liberated from those states.
one must make effort in order to avoid them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2023 at 10:53 AM
Title: Re: New online course & Wisdom Dharma Chat –with Malcolm Smith - Dzogchen: Ten Key Terms
Content:
microbuddha said:
Anyone know how long after the event we will have access to the videos?

Malcolm wrote:
I think once you have subscribed to the course, it is for as long as you wish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2023 at 3:48 AM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:
Aemilius said:
The Avatamsaka sutra Chapter three, The Wondrous Adornments of the Rulers of the Worlds, decribes how numerous kinds of celestial beings and many different kinds of nonhuman beings have attained liberation from samsara and how they help beings in countless different ways:

"Moreover, Celestial King Contentment gained a passage into liberation of encountering the turning of the wheel of Perfect Teaching each time a Buddha appears in the world.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not mean they attained awakening in each case, for example, this being attains the liberation (vimokṣa) of encountering the Dharma. There are many different kinds of beings and different kinds of liberation mentioned, until we come to the bodhisattvas. But there are many kinds of low level devas mentioned in these lists, forest devas, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2023 at 12:36 AM
Title: Re: Cessation of sensory experiences as the state of Prajnaparamita
Content:
MiphamFan said:
2. Who are the people who are espousing this view, and what do they say about it exactly? From Atom’s post, it seems that they believe that nirvana is just cessation of sensory experience and that this is to be accomplished as an end in itself?

Zhen Li said:
I think even Jayarava would say Nirvana is the cessation of suffering, and not nirodhasamāpatti.

Malcolm wrote:
Atwood writes, "Between us, we ought to have created enough doubt to suggest the need for a reappraisal of Prajñāpāramitā philosophy."

This is a risible statement on the face of it. He imagines the whole of Prajñāpāramitā thought is encapsulated in the Heart Sutra?

Prajñāpāramitā concerns gnosis (jñāna), not emptiness. The 8k says it best, "Bhagavān, prajñāpāramitā is omniscience (sarvajñāna)."

His other errors, in the post you reference, are, first, the assertion that cessation is the end goal of practice, "Cessation is something we can systematically cultivate. The way to cultivate it is to minimise sensory experience, both in daily life and more radically in meditation." While I can sympathize with this Epicurean ideal, this sort of ataraxia is not the goal of Buddhadharma. The goal of Buddhadharma is not limiting the senses, but rather, eliminating afflictions.

Secondly, that there is some contentless awareness one is trying to reach. All cognitions are "contentless," just as all reflections are contentless. Again, his critique of Buddhist idealism is fine, but it is not unique, and it most eloquently stated by Longchepa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 29th, 2023 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
silentobserver said:
What sort of person is truly qualified to teach Dzogchen? Is there a list of qualities?

Malcolm wrote:
The master of the intimate instructions that possesses the vajra meaning
has a positive attitude, skill in teaching,
obtains the empowerments, applies the meaning of secret mantra,
understands all the inner and outer activities,
is inseparable from the pledged deity,
remains undistracted in samādhi,
is knowledgeable in the secret tantras of secret mantra,
possesses the meaning of the intimate instructions of the Great Perfection,
engages in all outer and inner sadhanas,
never leaves the meaning of the view,
gives up outer, inner, and secret activities,
is endowed with qualities like a precious jewel,
and enjoys an inexhaustible treasury.

-- Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra

You try to find someone who has as many of these qualities as possible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 28th, 2023 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Cessation of sensory experiences as the state of Prajnaparamita
Content:
Queequeg said:
My point is not to bring up this particular system, but to point out that people have long recognized deficiencies in PP literature as compared to mature (tathagatagarbha) Mahayana.

Malcolm wrote:
People who imagine there are deficiencies in Prajñāpāramitā literature don't understand Prajñāpāramitā literature. Tathāgātagarbha is for those people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 26th, 2023 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Can Devas attain enlightenment?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
These citations merely mean that these devas generated bodhicitta.


Aemilius said:
The Perfection of Wisdom in 700 Lines (transl. of Edward Conze) says :

"Thereupon on that occasion, through the Buddha's might, the earth shook in six ways. And the thought of 16 000 monks were freed from the outflows without any further clinging, and 700 nuns, 300 laymen, 40 000 laywomen and 6000 niyutas of kotis  of gods of the sphere of sense-desire produced the dispassionate, unstained eye of Dharma in dharmas."

The Holy Teaching of Vimalakirti, Chapter 1. Purification of the Buddha field (tr. Robert Thurman):
"Then both men and gods who subscribed to the disciple-vehicle thought, "Alas! All constructed things are impermanent." Thereby, thirty-two thousand living beings purified their immaculate, undistorted Dharma-eye in regard to all things. The eight thousand bhikshus were liberated from their mental defilements, attaining the state of non-grasping. And eighty-four thousand living beings who were devoted to the grandeur of the buddha-field, having understood that all things are by nature but magical creations, all conceived in their own minds the spirit of unexcelled, totally perfect enlightenment."

Chapter 5. The Consolation of the Invalid:

"When Vimalakirti had spoken this discourse, eight thousand of the gods in the company of the Crown prince Mañjushri conceived the spirit of unexcelled, perfect enlightenment."

Samdhi-Nirmocana sutra (tr. John Powers) 8. Chapter of Maitreya:
"When this teaching of the definitive meaning of yoga was explained, six hundred thousand living beings generated the aspiration toward completely perfect and unsurpassed enlightenment. Three hundred thousand Sravakas purified the Dharma eye that is free from dust and stainless with respect to the Dharma. One hundred and fifty thousand Sravakas liberated their minds from contamination such that they would not take rebirth. Seventy-five thousand Bodhisattvas attained the mental contemplation of the great yoga."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 24th, 2023 at 9:04 AM
Title: Re: the difference between Prajñāparāmita and Madhyamaka
Content:
Shaiksha said:
Also, there are many degrees of rigpa realisation.

Malcolm wrote:
Incorrect.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 23rd, 2023 at 2:39 PM
Title: Re: Qualifications of a Dzogchen Master
Content:
florin said:
Are we saying that a dzogchen master is still bound by the 10 natures of tantra ?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, since they can also break samaya, etc., because they are also on the path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2023 at 8:23 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
Jules 09 said:
Malcolm wrote:
So apparently, the idea that with regards to the view of Dzogchen, all ideas and proliferation are erroneous is also erroneous, since it is an idea and a proliferation. Why? “The dharmakaya is encountered in the intimate instruction” would be a false statement and Samantabhadra would be a liar.
Heart wrote:
The idea that there is no thoughts in the natural state is just an idea and a truly an conceptual idea.
Ha! Ha!..

- The Twelve Vajra Laughs


Dharmakaya is beyond thought, word, and description.

- Padmasambhava, Descending With the View from Above.

Malcolm wrote:
Look into the wisdom of all-pervading great emptiness, the diverse activities of thoughts arose as play. Marvelous, no matter what one does, it is liberated as non-arising in the ceaseless expanse, ha ha!

--The Heap of Jewels Tantra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 16th, 2023 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Jules 09 said:
With regards to the view of Dzogchen - all ideas and conceptual elaborations are erroneous.

So what?

Malcolm wrote:
So apparently, the idea that with regards to the view of Dzogchen, all ideas and proliferation are erroneous is also erroneous, since it is an idea and a proliferation. Why? “The dharmakaya is encountered in the intimate instruction” would be a false statement and Samantabhadra would be a liar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 15th, 2023 at 4:15 PM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Natan said:
One thing we can agree on is Longchenpa's treatment of the four cho zhag in Genuine Meaning is preliminary to thogal, but not tregcho.

Malcolm wrote:
No. And you are clearly mistaken in your understanding of this point. So, I am going to leave it here since you are misrepresenting the text you claim supports your position.

Natan said:
Prove it

Malcolm wrote:
I already did, but you chose to ignore my earlier reply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, March 14th, 2023 at 7:24 AM
Title: Re: Towards a Sanskrit Canon/Tripitaka?
Content:


stong gzugs said:
So, all things considered, yes, I think you’ve misrepresented the Hevajra on here.

Malcolm wrote:
And I think you don't understand this point because you've never received Lamdre, never consulted the Sakya commentaries and mchan 'grel, and because you are a literalist you don't understand what the song means. But that's ok, you are entitled to your misunderstanding, just as I am entitled to understand it in light of several (not merely one) teachers instructions on this point.

Zhen Li said:
This is an interesting thread, but this is getting a bit crazy. What does this have to do with canon?

Malcolm wrote:
It has to do with how tantric texts are to be read.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 13th, 2023 at 10:51 AM
Title: Re: Democrat nominee for 2024
Content:


Sādhaka said:
FWIW, from my limited looking-into of democrat candidates, Marianne Williamson seems to be the least crazy out of that bunch….


Malcolm wrote:
That's because you are crazy.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 12th, 2023 at 3:11 PM
Title: Re: Towards a Sanskrit Canon/Tripitaka?
Content:


stong gzugs said:
Sure! Here's one example from Kalkī Pundarīka in the Vimalprabhā commentary (Chapter 1; The Third Brief Account) explaining how his dad (Kalkī Yaśas) introduced corrupt/ungrammatical words to destroy attachment to language.
And in order to eradicate the clinging to proper words of those proponents of proper words, he [Kalkī Yaśas] relied on the meaning. In some verses there are corrupt words ... A yogi should comprehend corrupt words such as these, and others, too, by reading the texts. Likewise, I must write this commentary relying on the meaning in order to eradicate conceit in proper words. Thus, Buddhas and bodhisattvas teach the Dharma for the sake of liberation. Relying on the meaning, they use the different vernaculars and the different languages of the grammatical treatises, whichever eliminate conceit in family, learning, and proper words.

Malcolm wrote:
So much for your theory of “correctly” translating the Hevajra vajra song, and your subsequent indignant replies.

“Those who eat meat have compassion.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 10th, 2023 at 7:35 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Astus said:
consciousness without an object makes no sense.

Malcolm wrote:
If there is no object for it, does a consciousness cease and become nonexistent? If this is the case, how does someone arise from a samadhi of cessation?

More to the point, if consciousness must always have an object, how can one practice prajñāpāramitā?

Candra points out in his MAV autocommentary, "Yogis do not perceive all aspects, when those are not perceived, that which is appropriated by the eye, and so on, and so on does not occur. In this way, yogis do not perceive an intrinsic nature in any entities, and therefore, they are liberated from samsara."

If consciousness must always have an object, such a nonperception would be impossible, and therefore, liberation also would be impossible, and one must accept the consequence that liberation involves consciousness becoming a nonexistent, and therefore, one's view is necessarily annihilationist, like that of sautrantikas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2023 at 4:09 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It’s only by knowing the nature of the mind liberation is attained. If one claims the nature of mind us only emptiness, this is insufficient. But we are going off topic.

Astus said:
If the unique qualities of an instance of consciousness is held to be uncompounded, the same can be applied to all dharmas. How is that any different from denying the emptiness of dharmas? Or even affirming a sort of ultimate awareness/self.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s quite different. The mistake many people make is assuming that uncompounded is the antithesis of compounded, when in fact all compounded phenomena have an uncompounded nature.

Minds also are conscious, but that consciousness is not fabricated by someone or something. Minds cannot be reduced in such a way as to exclude consciousness, consciousness is an irreducible fact of minds. Unlike inanimate phenomena, minds possesses two irreducible qualities, consciousness and emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 8th, 2023 at 9:51 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mind is not only empty. But that is a common sutra attitude.

Astus said:
All things have their unique attributes, and categories of things have their shared qualities that make them different from other categories. So why say that only the category of mind is special?

Malcolm wrote:
Things other than minds have no possibility of liberation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2023 at 11:18 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Natan said:
One thing we can agree on is Longchenpa's treatment of the four cho zhag in Genuine Meaning is preliminary to thogal, but not tregcho.

Malcolm wrote:
No. And you are clearly mistaken in your understanding of this point. So, I am going to leave it here since you are misrepresenting the text you claim supports your position.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, March 6th, 2023 at 11:13 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Mind is not only empty. But that is a common sutra attitude.

Astus said:
All things have their unique attributes, and categories of things have their shared qualities that make them different from other categories. So why say that only the category of mind is special?

Malcolm wrote:
It’s only by knowing the nature of the mind liberation is attained. If one claims the nature of mind us only emptiness, this is insufficient. But we are going off topic.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2023 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Towards a Sanskrit Canon/Tripitaka?
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
but all of these translated texts were originally revealed in a Sanskritic language.

tingdzin said:
Not at all true. Some of the most influential sutras in the Chinese canon were composed either partially or wholly in Chinese.

Malcolm wrote:
Agreed, and in India the whole of Sarvastivada canon was a translation from local vernaculars.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2023 at 10:15 PM
Title: Re: Towards a Sanskrit Canon/Tripitaka?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
worrying about restoring a lost Sanskrit canon is little more than quixotic wishful thinking.


Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
Sanskrit is a very important language with which to comprehend the canon of Buddhism, as several schools of Buddhism derive their authority from Sanskrit texts.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s a different issue. Unfortunately, many of the DBSL texts are reconstructed from Tibetan, so not original Sanskrit.

But the living language of present day Buddhism is Tibetan, Pali, Chinese, Japanese, Burmese, to a lesssr extent Newar, and now English, French, and German.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2023 at 11:19 AM
Title: Re: Towards a Sanskrit Canon/Tripitaka?
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
One of the most intriguing aspects of Buddhism today it seems is the lack of a formal Sanskrit canon/tripitaka.

Malcolm wrote:
Sanskrit isn’t the original language of the Dharma (because there isn’t an original language of the Dharma).

The Buddha insisted that Dharma be taught in the local vernacular.

Shantideva famously aspires to teach dharma in the language of all beings…

In the face of this, worrying about restoring a lost Sanskrit canon is little more than quixotic wishful thinking.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2023 at 8:59 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, if one does not know Abhidharma, one cannot be said to know Buddhism.

Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
Are you really saying that if one happens to not be au fait with an exceedingly obscure and inscrutable topic in the Abhidharmakosha that no one ever talks about - namely, this alleged duality of compounded vs uncompounded space - that one "doesn't know Buddhism"?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It means one will engage in limitless category errors, since the metaphor of space is so pervasive.

Abhidharma is to Buddhism what anatomy is to medicine. You wouldn’t trust yourself to neurosurgeon who was ignorant of basic anatomy, now would you?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2023 at 8:56 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is part of the nature of the mind, in other words, wherever there is mind, there is clarity, just as there is emptiness. Both clarity and emptiness are uncompounded in the sense that they are invariable characteristics of any given mind. You cannot remove the clarity of the mind anymore than you can remove its emptiness.

Astus said:
Why single out mind to be anything other than empty? Earth has the nature of solidity, etc. up to all the many dharmas.

Malcolm wrote:
Mind is not only empty. But that is a common sutra attitude.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, March 5th, 2023 at 7:30 AM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is a mention of Shri Singha by Manjushrikirti, an 11th century scholar, who identifies the former as belonging to a group who emphasized the completion stage and dispensed with the creation stage as unnecessary

tingdzin said:
Very interesting. Can you give us a source to refer to? What was the name of the group, etc.?

Malcolm wrote:
I can but I am in transit land at the moment…


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2023 at 9:58 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That is uncompounded space. The other kind of space is bounded space, such the inside of a cave, etc.

Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
Except that the sutra makes no such claim that it is referring specifically to some kind of special "uncompounded" space.

Malcolm wrote:
I refer you to Abhidharmakośa chapter 1, verse 5c, and verse 28a-b, where the distinction between uncompounded space and compounded space is drawn.

Consult Chim, Ornament of Abhidharma, pp.61-64, and pp.133-134, where this distinction, grounded in sūtra, is discussed in more detail than Vasubandhu devotes to it.

Moreover, Kalacakra discusses "particles of space," but we certainly cannot mistaken this idea in Kalacakra for the space that belongs to the three uncompounded dharmas, along with the two cessations.

Frankly, if one does not know Abhidharma, one cannot be said to know Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2023 at 8:39 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of space defined in Buddhist texts, empty areas, etc., and uncompounded space, absence of obstruction.

Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
"Space is defined as the lack of objects in space" - from John Powers' translation of the Samdhinirmocana Sutra, chapter 7 on the Questions of Exalted by the Ultimate.

"...exactly like space, which consists in the essencelessness of form and pervades everything" (84000.co's rendering of the same quote)

" space is identical everywhere and, [being empty and free from all obstruction,] does not hinder any endeavor" - also from 84000's translation of the same text/chapter.

Malcolm wrote:
That is uncompounded space. The other kind of space is bounded space, such the inside of a cave, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2023 at 8:18 AM
Title: Re: Great Vegan Debate
Content:


Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
The final paragraph of his poem "Concluding Verses" reads

"Killing creatures who were once their parents -- oh, how terrible!
In all your lives in future may you never more consume
The flesh and blood of beings once your parents.
By the blessings of the Buddha most compassionate,
May you never more desire the taste of meat." (p. 96)

Malcolm wrote:
The people he was addressing this to were people who, in general, butchered their own animals.

Bhavaviveka points out the limitations of these arguments quite systematically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2023 at 6:11 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
How is space regarded as compounded?

Malcolm wrote:
Space as dimension is compounded.

PadmaVonSamba said:
How and on what way?
Everything is contained in space.
Space cannot be subdivided into separate components.
Whether a box is empty or full, it contains the same space.

Malcolm wrote:
There are two kinds of space defined in Buddhist texts, empty areas, etc., and uncompounded space, absence of obstruction.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2023 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Great Vegan Debate
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
Again, translators have naturally added the word [meat] after both instances of "eating".  But given how in the earlier sutra, Lord Buddha taught that even eating grains and cereals is spiritually disadvantageous, we can read these sentences literally, all of which suggests skillful practices such as chulen or essence extraction, whereupon the body is not polluted by gross solid food.  All of which seems to be suggesting, if the ideal state for seekers of the highest mystic state of Buddha-enlightenment is one where even vegetarian food is avoided, how much the more, that of the flesh and blood of living beings.

Malcolm wrote:
This sutra is a Chinese composition. As the to other sutras, as I mentioned already, Bhavya proves in the Blaze of Dialectics that the teaching in the Lanka, etc., is not definitive, devoting many pages to explicating the difference between eating things in which there are minds and things in which there are not, and by definition, meat is something in which there is no mind, thus he concludes at great length that there is no fault in eating meat that is pure in three ways.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, March 4th, 2023 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa quotes this opinion of Kumarāja in chapter ten of his commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu:

As it is said, "Here some confused ones, who are not knowledgable in the tantras, make random comments and cling to words literally, think these four cog bzhag are the method of equipoise of thogal. They are not connected with the dharma, and they do not understand the application of the practice at all. They literally apply the words of the Blossoming Lotus Commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, applying them one-sidely. However, [the four cog bzhag] are to be applied in general. The Precious Appearance Handbook applies them to all."

The root of either trekcho and thogal is knowing how to nakedly expose this pellucid rigpa. If one does not know this, no matter what one applies is of no benefit. Since such a "trekcho" is lost in trivial methods of mental fixation through being mixed with the path of all confused great meditators, it will not transcend samsara and with respect to "thogal," one will deviate into the form realm due to clinging to entities and signs. Thus, it is very important here to recognize genuine, naked consciousness (zang ka rjen pa'i shes pa). It is not sufficient to merely recognize this, but one must constantly maintain this.

Longchenpa then goes onto describe the methods of equipoise, beginning with the cog bzhag of the ocean, and so on.

Natan said:
This literally contradicts what he says in Genuine Meaning, because he does not present them in the passage before or during tregcho, but as the preliminaries to togal.

Malcolm wrote:
The Tshig don mdzod is a commentary which expands on an earlier text, the rdzog chen bcu gcig pa by Nyi ma 'Bum (1158-1213), which Longchenpa had in front of him when he wrote the Tshig don mdzod.

His treatment of the four cog bzhags precisely matches its place in Nyi ma 'bum's earlier text, in topic eight, which is first of three topics the path (Buddhahood in this Life is identical to Nyibum's earlier text, apart from intro and colophon). This topic is divided into two sections, the section for those inclined towards perceptual objects and the section for those inclined towards the self-appearance of rigpa. In this presentation, the four cog bzhags are included in the section for those inclined towards perceptual objects, and they are distributed among the four yogas: view, meditation, conduct, and result. In this presentation, the four cho bzhags are presented in a gradual way, is if they are to be practiced one after the other, and they presented just before the section on trekcho.

The section on treckho and thogal are the section for those inclined towards the self-appearance of rigpa, and cover trekcho in terms of the three words of Garab Dorje, and thogal's four visions, postures, and gazes.

But the Chos dbyings mdzod is Longchenpa's declaration of his own realization, and its commentary, the Treasury of Citations (Lung gyi gter mdzod) is the last of the seven treasures and stands as Longchenpa's defining work. Everyone agrees this is so. The entire text is on trekcho, and it contains a detailed presentation of the four cog bzhag in chapter 10.

Not only this, but in his Theg mchog mdzod, his two volume detailed commentary on the general meaning of the seventeen tantras, Lonchenpa includes his explanation of the four cog bzhag in chapter 19, the Trekcho chapter, in the middle of a detailed presentation of the three words, in the direct introduction part.

The Treasury of Citations, which is entirely devoted to trekcho, devotes an entire chapter to direct introduction, chapter 9, and devotes an entire chapter to the four cog bzhags and three samadhis, which are branches of the latter.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2023 at 7:28 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Things like, space, rocks, cliffs, and so are compounded, but they too have a dharmatā.

PadmaVonSamba said:
How is space regarded as compounded?

Malcolm wrote:
Space as dimension is compounded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2023 at 6:12 AM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
…some people prefer strange theories about ultima thules, such as Shambhala,


Sādhaka said:
Didn’t ChNNR say that Shambhala used to be physically in Afghanistan (perhaps Balkh?), and also said or implied that Shambhala is now in another dimension?


Malcolm wrote:
He said there used to be a country called Shambhala, which he identified as Afghanistan, but that it disappeared and now there are only muslims there.

he also said that Shambhala was now considered a kind of pure land. But I don't know how much stock he placed in this idea. Once over dinner at his house in Merigar he told a friend of mine, who was asking him about Kalacakra, that books are things that can be altered by people, and that the real Kalacakra was the nature of the mind, not some text.

But I don't really know what he thought about Shambhala in the present.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2023 at 1:44 AM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:



Kai lord said:
And all this are simply geographical facts, no one is using science here.........

Malcolm wrote:
It is quite obvious that the Himalayan Plateau is the inspiration for Meru cosmology. But some people prefer strange theories about ultima thules, such as Shambhala, and so on. Natually, of course in Dzogchen teachings, we have our thirteen thal bas, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2023 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: Samaya protection
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
That's Bodhicitta Vows I know about that

So what is the best way to repair all of the other Samaya's?

Malcolm wrote:
Guru yoga. If you feel you have broken some samaya, then Ganapuja is the best way to repair it, followed by Vajrasattva practice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2023 at 12:30 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Passing By said:
Then in this case, one could theoretically come to gain confidence and make the definitive decision for practicing proper trekcho just purely through reflecting upon a teacher's pointing out and explanation of Dzogchen without the use of particular methods like semdzins etc?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It is possible. "Trekcho" means abiding in one's own knowledge of the basis. While there is a tradition of defining khregs as solidity, and chod as cutting, this idea is really a little wrong, according to ChNN. Khregs pa means "a bundle," chod means "to come apart." Also, of you look in any Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary, you will discover that khregs chod is defined as a term for vipaśyanā of the early translation school, for example, Alak Zankar's dictionary defines it as follows: khregs chod -  (rnying) 1) snga 'gyur ba'i lhag  mthong gi brda chad).

Passing By said:
On that note, with regards to the quote from the Rangshar you posted earlier about unceasing nonattachment.....Deciding that attachment has the nature of nonattachment, ie, having attachment and preferences for stuff nevertheless, while having made the decision that such attachments are inherently empty displays....Is this contradictory and a deviation in trekcho?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Dzogchen does not render one a nonfunctional human being. We can still like prefer coffee to tea, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2023 at 12:21 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Rick said:
The vibe that awareness and/or consciousness are special exalted irreducibles, rather than plain old unassuming attributes of the mind, seems true for Tibetan Buddhism and Zen, but not so much for other Buddhist schools?

Malcolm wrote:
Consciousness ( vijñāna ) is also called mind ( manas ) and thought ( citta ).

These five aggregates are what the Buddha taught, and are accepted by all schools since they are part of the basic teaching of the Buddha.

Consciousness is not a special irreducible. It is impermanent and compounded.

Passing By said:
What about clarity? (as in the rangzhin salwa of the Base) Is it considered uncompounded?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it is part of the nature of the mind, in other words, wherever there is mind, there is clarity, just as there is emptiness. Both clarity and emptiness are uncompounded in the sense that they are invariable characteristics of any given mind. You cannot remove the clarity of the mind anymore than you can remove its emptiness. The dharmatā of the mind (citta dharmatā) is emptiness and clarity. Dharmatā is always uncompounded. Things like, space, rocks, cliffs, and so are compounded, but they too have a dharmatā. But since they are inanimate, their dharmatā is only emptiness. Sentient beings have mind, which has three dharmatās: emptiness, clarity, and cognizance (rig pa), which are in fact inseparable. The key here is to understand that since the mind is empty, it does not arise inherently, and thus, it cannot cease, and therefore, its clarity and cognizance are in some sense imperishable, even thought the mind itself is momentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2023 at 12:16 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Passing By said:
Then in this case, one could theoretically come to gain confidence and make the definitive decision for practicing proper trekcho just purely through reflecting upon a teacher's pointing out and explanation of Dzogchen without the use of particular methods like semdzins etc?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It is possible. "Trekcho" means abiding in one's own knowledge of the basis. While there is a tradition of defining khregs as solidity, and chod as cutting, this idea is really a little wrong, according to ChNN. Khregs pa means "a bundle," chod means "to come apart." Also, of you look in any Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary, you will discover that khregs chod is defined as a term for vipaśyanā of the early translation school, for example, Alak Zankar's dictionary defines it as follows: khregs chod -  (rnying) 1) snga 'gyur ba'i lhag  mthong gi brda chad).
BTW, in the śrāvaka schools, Buddha defined two paths: a śamatha yāna and a vipaśanā yāna, reflecting two different ways of attaining stream entry, etc. It would not be incorrect to consider the trekcho the vipaśanā yāna of Dzogchen, and thogal the śamatha yāna of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, March 3rd, 2023 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Passing By said:
Then in this case, one could theoretically come to gain confidence and make the definitive decision for practicing proper trekcho just purely through reflecting upon a teacher's pointing out and explanation of Dzogchen without the use of particular methods like semdzins etc?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. It is possible. "Trekcho" means abiding in one's own knowledge of the basis. While there is a tradition of defining khregs as solidity, and chod as cutting, this idea is really a little wrong, according to ChNN. Khregs pa means "a bundle," chod means "to come apart." Also, of you look in any Tibetan-Tibetan dictionary, you will discover that khregs chod is defined as a term for vipaśyanā of the early translation school, for example, Alak Zankar's dictionary defines it as follows: khregs chod -  (rnying) 1) snga 'gyur ba'i lhag  mthong gi brda chad).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 10:35 PM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Passing By said:
What do intimate instructions here refer to? Dzogchen teachings in general or specific , method instructions?

Malcolm wrote:
They refer to receiving Dzogchen instructions, upadeśas, from one's teacher.

"Upa" means "close" or "intimate," in this context, deśa means to stay. So upadeśas instructions heard in close proximity to one's teacher. In Tibetan this word is translated either as gdams ngag or man ngag, depending on context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
lelopa said:
ChNN said something like:
"Rigpa is not Dharmakaya - rigpa is that what percieves the Dharmakaya"

Malcolm wrote:
Substitute "basis" for dharmakāya and you have it right.

Free from thoughts, vidyā, the dharmakāya,
completely pervades migrating beings without an
appearing object or an agent of appearances.

—Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra, pg. 98


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 1:00 PM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Rick said:
Then either way: empty. Yes?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 12:43 PM
Title: Re: Samaya protection
Content:


Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
As I'm not in Rigpa at all times is it the best way to repair Samaya when I return to it?

For example I have a Samaya to love others from a HEGR empowerment but for 5 minutes because of whatever reason I can't?

Malcolm wrote:
The samaya is not to abandon aspirational bodhicitta--however this or that teachers parses things, that is what that general samaya is.

So even if we are not capable of always having loving kindness in our minds, as long as we have the aspiration to attain buddhahood for the benefit of others, we have not broken that samaya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 8:50 AM
Title: Re: Samaya protection
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
So with Samaya with Tantric and Bodhisattva Vows there is the 4 binding factors to protect the Samaya excluding the Bodhicitta Vows

• not regarding the negative action as detrimental, seeing only advantages to it, and undertaking the action with no regrets,
• having been in the habit of committing the transgression before, having no wish or intention to refrain now or in the future from repeating it,
• delighting in the negative action and undertaking it with joy,
• having no moral self-dignity or care for how our actions reflect on others, and thus having no intention of repairing the damage we are doing to ourselves and to them.

With Atiyoga also Anu and Mahayoga there is what is listed in Buddhist Ethics by Jamgon Kongtrul

With regards to individual Samaya given in Empowerments for example by Garchen Rinpoche and Sakya Trizin what factors protect those Samaya?

I have so many individual Samaya's from various Empowements that it is impossible to keep all of them all of the time.

Is it simply a case of reciting Vajrasattva to purify damage to the Samayas or applying the 4 Binding Factors listed above where Vajrasattva would be a means to repair?

I wonder if Garchen Rinpoche ever commented on this I have nothing in my notes however.

Any help appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
The best way to keep samaya is guru yoga, any guru yoga.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 8:47 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Consciousness is not a special irreducible. It is impermanent and compounded.

Rick said:
Rigpa too?

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on what one means by rig pa.

Generally rig pa is also a word for consciousness. When it us used in a dzogchen context it refers to knowing the nature of the mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 6:25 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Rick said:
The vibe that awareness and/or consciousness are special exalted irreducibles, rather than plain old unassuming attributes of the mind, seems true for Tibetan Buddhism and Zen, but not so much for other Buddhist schools?

Malcolm wrote:
Consciousness ( vijñāna ) is also called mind ( manas ) and thought ( citta ).

These five aggregates are what the Buddha taught, and are accepted by all schools since they are part of the basic teaching of the Buddha.

Consciousness is not a special irreducible. It is impermanent and compounded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Skandha question
Content:
Rick said:
Is awareness understood to be a skandha? If not, what is it? Ditto for consciousness.

Malcolm wrote:
Awareness is part of the formation skandha.

Consciousness is a skandha.

There are four mental aggregates: sensation, perception, formations (which includes all mental factors and concepts) and consciousness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: Ngondro Help
Content:
Muddy343 said:
Does Ngondro require a guru?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. And you need the receive at least a reading transmission of the text.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 2:02 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Longchenpa quotes this opinion of Kumarāja in chapter ten of his commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhātu:

As it is said, "Here some confused ones, who are not knowledgable in the tantras, make random comments and cling to words literally, think these four cog bzhag are the method of equipoise of thogal. They are not connected with the dharma, and they do not understand the application of the practice at all. They literally apply the words of the Blossoming Lotus Commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, applying them one-sidely. However, [the four cog bzhag] are to be applied in general. The Precious Appearance Handbook applies them to all."

The root of either trekcho and thogal is knowing how to nakedly expose this pellucid rigpa. If one does not know this, no matter what one applies is of no benefit. Since such a "trekcho" is lost in trivial methods of mental fixation through being mixed with the path of all confused great meditators, it will not transcend samsara and with respect to "thogal," one will deviate into the form realm due to clinging to entities and signs. Thus, it is very important here to recognize genuine, naked consciousness (zang ka rjen pa'i shes pa). It is not sufficient to merely recognize this, but one must constantly maintain this.

Longchenpa then goes onto describe the methods of equipoise, beginning with the cog bzhag of the ocean, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 at 12:02 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
ThreeVows said:
So then authentic realization of this pointing out of the pristine consciousness of vidya is the same as what is discussed here by Dudjom Lingpa, correct?


Malcolm wrote:
Yes.

ThreeVows said:
Which then means that given that trekcho is a non-gradual path, anyone who authentically realizes this is a Buddha, correct? Given that as you have said,

Malcolm wrote:
Again, you keep framing things from the nine yāna point of view.

ThreeVows said:
only buddhas can see the actual dharmakāya
Then, if one has not yet discerned this properly, and yet contrives of oneself as a trekcho practitioner, presumably this would be what kyle/krodha is labeling 'nominal trekcho' or “the yoga of the view”, correct? Which presumably is not actual trekcho in a sort of precise, technical sense, but rather a sort of 'glorified śamatha' practice, as he says?

Malcolm wrote:
In the nine yānas teaching, only buddhas can see the actual dharmakāya. But that is a view which perceives the dharmakāya as a result to be attained.

In Dzogchen teachings, the dharmakāya is one's rig pa. That can be confirmed without the so-called "realization of emptiness."

Perhaps this will help you:

Utterly pure dharmatā does not arise;
alternately, it self-liberates without grasping.
Why? The cause of self-liberation
is unceasing nonattachment.
It is free from a mind of grasping and attachment.
Recognize this again and again.
If one familiarizes oneself repeatedly,
one is a person who has seen the truth.

Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra, pp. 387-388.

This is trekchö. If one is taking any kind of object, whether clarity or emptiness as a focal point, one is not practicing trekcho at all.

The main method of discovering the state of trekcho is the twenty-one semzins. But in reality, it is the intimate instructions in which one discovers the putative result:

Because it exists to be explained,
the result is attained through the explanation.
If not explained, how can there be liberation?

Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra, pg. 402.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 1st, 2023 at 10:50 PM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
If ordinary people cannot discern "the 'pristine consciousness of vidya in which thoughts have ceased" then Samantabhadra is a liar.

Longchenpa:
In that state of momentary natural equipoise, dharmakāya is the reality of the pristine consciousness of vidyā in which thoughts have ceased.
Tantra Without Syllables:
"Though the nature of vidyā pervades all, the dharmakāya is encountered in the instructions.”

ThreeVows said:
So then authentic realization of this pointing out of the pristine consciousness of vidya is the same as what is discussed here by Dudjom Lingpa, correct?
Ultimately, simply by identifying the dharmakāya, pristine awareness that is present in the ground, you gain power over the life force of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa. This is not a discussion of receiving empowerment through such things as water and symbolic pictures that are used as methods to awaken the mind. Rather, you know you have obtained the empowerments of the jinas and jinaputras and the oral transmissions of all the writings that emerge from primordial consciousness, pristine awareness.  Thus, you have already simultaneously obtained all empowerments and oral transmissions.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 1st, 2023 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:
Kai lord said:
For a brief moment, I thought the whole thread was deleted.

Furthermore Asoka, the most famed iron wheeled Chakravartin in buddhism, ruled over the entire jambudvipa which is India subcontinent...

Malcolm wrote:
Not quite the whole:

Kai lord said:
Yes I know, the recent revisionist version which argued that Asoka did not directly rule over the entire India and more like he exerted a dominant influence over these regions.

There are some scholars who even argued that Asoka's dad and grandpa were better rulers than he was.

Malcolm wrote:
Quite likely true.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 1st, 2023 at 6:55 AM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:


Kai lord said:
Furthermore Asoka, the most famed iron wheeled Chakravartin in buddhism, ruled over the entire jambudvipa which is India subcontinent...

Malcolm wrote:
Not quite the whole:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 1st, 2023 at 6:45 AM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:


Kai lord said:
Furthermore Asoka, the most famed iron wheeled Chakravartin in buddhism, ruled over the entire jambudvipa which is India subcontinent...

Malcolm wrote:
No actually, he did not rule over the whole subcontinent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 1st, 2023 at 6:36 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
ThreeVows said:
Ok, but as is discussed above with krodha, kyle dixon, and yourself, it seems like there is discusssion of this 'nominal' trekcho, which is not yet at the point of recognizing the nature of mind.

Malcolm wrote:
No. I have never said this. One cannot practice trekcho at all until one has removed doubt and can continue in the confidence of liberation. That means you must have confirmed the reality of the mind. Until that time, you use the methods of semzin and rushan until you have. Confirming the reality of the mind is not the same as realizing emptiness.

Krodha is Kyle Dixon, BTW.

You are also conflating what Kyle's restatement with what I actually said:
Malcolm:

“The question is framed incorrectly. Treckhöd is best described in general terms as a practice in which insight into emptiness and śamatha are combined. But below the path of seeing, this insight is conceptual, based on the example wisdom of the direct introduction. However, the emptiness meditated upon in trekchöd is also inferential until one mounts the path of seeing. There really is no difference between perfection of wisdom, mahāmudra, Chan/Zen, etc., and tregchöd. I have heard it said that Tulku Orgyen asserted that trekchöd exists in all yānas, perhaps EPK would be kind enough to confirm this. What separates from trekchöd from these other systems of the method of introduction. Trekchöd, like any secret mantra practice, is based on empowerment/introduction.”

“Actually, what one is resting is empty clarity. However, below the path of seeing, the emptiness of that clarity is a conceptual inference. However, when meditating, we just rest in the clarity aspect without engaging in concepts like "this is empty." We know already that it is empty since we confirmed this analytically during rushan of the mind or the semzin of gradual and sudden emptiness.”

ThreeVows said:
And so even if the dharmakaya is our basis, the 'pristine consciousness of vidya in which thoughts have ceased' presumably is not actually discerned unless one realizes the non-nominal, actual trekcho, at which point one is not an ordinary being at all.

Malcolm wrote:
This is yet another error of understanding. If we continue to insist on practicing Dzogchen according to the meaning of the nine yānas we will never get anywhere.

If ordinary people cannot discern "the 'pristine consciousness of vidya in which thoughts have ceased" then Samantabhadra is a liar.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 1st, 2023 at 6:16 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
ThreeVows said:
In that state of momentary natural equipoise, dharmakāya is the reality of the pristine consciousness of vidyā in which thoughts have ceased.

Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen, the dharmakāya is our basis. It's already there. This has nothing to do realizing emptiness or not. The two issues are distinct from one another.

One need only confirm the reality of the mind and rest on that knowledge. Then the rest happens quite naturally. But this only works on the basis of hearing the intimate instructions of the guru. As it is said in the Tantra Without Syllables, "Though the nature of vidyā pervades all, the dharmakāya is encountered in the instructions.”

Vimalmitra states about this:

Similarly, though there is buddhahood in nondual dharmatā, it does not exist in one’s vidyā alone, which is insufficient. Likewise, a guru alone is insufficient. Also, one’s cultivation is insufficient. When these three things meet [vidyā, guru, and cultivation], buddhahood is a certainty.

Dzogchen is not a gradual path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, March 1st, 2023 at 4:47 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


ThreeVows said:
For clarification, sometimes it seems that trekcho is used in two ways - there is sort of a preliminary trekcho which does not necessarily entail direct insight into suchness/emptiness, and then there is sort of full trekcho which necessarily entails proper insight into emptiness, which would necessarily be the domain of the noble sangha alone as such.

Malcolm wrote:
I have never seen such distinction made by anyone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 28th, 2023 at 11:41 PM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
heart said:
According to him what happens then is that through Tögal you arrive at Trechö.

Malcolm wrote:
The lamp of self-originated prājnā is trekchö.

Natan said:
No. It's the lamp. Lamps work in unison on either path and develop differently depending on which is followed. In fact Longchenpa specifically says Tregcho is not a prajna.

Malcolm wrote:
The term prajñā is used in various ways in Dzogchen. Trekcho is not an analytical prajñā, but it is a prajñā. For example, the Blazing Lamp Commentary states:

Therefore, in the present, wisdom arises the moment mere consciousness is without reification of thought.

Longchenpa writes in the Lama Yangthig trekcho manual:

In that state of momentary natural equipoise, dharmakāya is the reality of the pristine consciousness of vidyā in which thoughts have ceased.

And we know that on his deathbed, when people had doubts, he directed them to consult Lama Yangthig.

So we have to be clear that there is the analytical prajñā of the nine vehicles, and the self-orginated prajñā of Dzogchen. They are different. When Longchenpa negate prajñā, he is doing so in the same way Vimalamitra negates analytical prajñā of mental activity in the Tantra Without Syllables commentary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 28th, 2023 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Natan said:
Ok so you are talking about his recent teaching. So you were there for all four years?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 28th, 2023 at 12:47 PM
Title: Re: the difference between Prajñāparāmita and Madhyamaka
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
This assumes people care. Mostly we don't rely on the opinions of textual coroners for what texts mean, even when we find their opinions interesting.

Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
Assuming that is how we people mostly feel about professional academic scholars and postmortem doctrinal forensic examiners, then to what extent  should we mostly care to rely upon the interesting, or otherwise, opinions of fulltime forum/discussion board correspondents, sir?

Malcolm wrote:
That’s up to you, bud. You can play with words, or you can practice Dharma. Choose your path wisely.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 28th, 2023 at 12:36 PM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
You quoted from the Tarkajvala I think it was, which in no way supercedes the utter proscription of meat-eating by all Buddhists found in texts like Lankavatara Sutra.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, it totally supersedes that proscription, that’s why I cited it. Bhavaviveka is a Mahayani, in case you did not know that.


Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
; but in this context, the "meat" so-called is actually medicine, and not food per se -

Malcolm wrote:
No, you are mistaken here. But it’s not surprising. You haven’t actually studied and received the oral transmission of the four medicine tantras .  I was in the first class of Shang Shung Institute’s 5 Year Tibetan Medical program (graduated with a sman pa bka’ bcu pa degree from the Tibetan medical school at Xining University in 2009). So, I am fairly certain I know far more about Tibetan medicine than you do, since I actually practice it.

Meat is prescribed in four medicine tantras as food in the diet chapter of the explanatory tantra. Various kinds of animal products are also prescribed in the intimate instruction tantra as well as the subsequent tantra, and also the root tantra, for both diet and medicine, depending on context and condition. As in Ayurveda, there are four modalities in Tibetan medicine: diet comes first, then conduct, medicines, and finally external therapies, in that order. Diet and conduct are intended to be preventative, in the best case scenario.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 28th, 2023 at 11:56 AM
Title: Re: Pronunciation Guide for Tibetan?
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
.  I say "mantra words" because they are also recited along with (after) the actual collection of mantras.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not really. No one recites these as mantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 28th, 2023 at 6:56 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


shankara said:
You're right that the problem is systemic, but abstaining from eating meat is a valid if partially symbolic gesture of dissent from the horrors of the industry.

Malcolm wrote:
You might as well starve yourself, like some Jains do, at the horrors of karmic existence. You think the human realm is frightening, samsara is a real horror show, if you contemplate it properly and well. The suffering cause by industrial agriculture hardly compares.

Anyway, I have my own reasons, "mystical" and health related, for continuing to eat meat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 28th, 2023 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: Pronunciation Guide for Tibetan?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan has several different regional dialects with vastly different pronunciations of the same words.

The regional dialects are far worse than English, requiring Tibetans from different regions to employ translators, or to resort to Chinese to communicate.

Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
I see...with that in mind, in general, supposing I wanted to recite the mantra-words "samaya gya gya gya",

Malcolm wrote:
Those are not mantra words. They are words that seal a secret text, and necessarily even a treasure texts.

Samaya is Sanskrit, pronounced as it looks.

rgya, "seal," is Tibetan.

But any way, in in Ladakh "rgya," in Central Tibet, "gya," in Kham "jya",

would I be best to use a soft or hard g?  And supposing I was trying to recite the mantra syllable "söd", what would the ö sound like?  I have seen people say that it should be pronounced like the English "surd", and elsewhere, with the vowel to sound like the vowel sound of the English "soot".
Again, it depends on region.


Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
And listening to recordings of lamas chanting these kinds of words, they often speak them very quickly and indistinctly making it hard to determine what exact sound it being articulated.  And for all these regional dialects, there still must be some kind of lingua franca convention, so to speak, when it comes to Western practitioners reciting Tibetan texts.  Would that be a fair comment?

Malcolm wrote:
Nope, every Lama has a different system of phonetics. And the way they are phoneticized really does not allow westerner to properly pronounce Tibetan. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu attempted to create a Pinyin like system. but everybody outside Dzogchen community hates it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 11:38 PM
Title: Re: the difference between Prajñāparāmita and Madhyamaka
Content:


Atom said:
Harrison's forthcoming book on the Diamond Sutra will likely be yet another bitter pill for traditionalists to swallow...

Malcolm wrote:
This assumes people care. Mostly we don't rely on the opinions of textual coroners for what texts mean, even when we find their opinions interesting.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 1:29 PM
Title: Re: Pronunciation Guide for Tibetan?
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
Does anyone know of a really good pronunciation guide for Tibetan (as found in Buddhist scriptures, etc.)  Some of the subtleties and variations are perplexing.  For example is "g" as in for example "[r]gyu" always a soft g, or sometimes a hard g?  And how exactly is "ö" pronounced?  And it seems like pronunciation can vary from word to word (not as bad as English though, obviously).  And the vowels are tricky as well...a vowel in the middle of a word seems to often be pronounced differently to if it's at the end of a word.  I know there are a lot of guides out there, both in book, YouTube video, and blog form, but just in case someone has any particularly good succinct, no nonsense, easy to understand recommendations.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan has several different regional dialects with vastly different pronunciations of the same words.

The regional dialects are far worse than English, requiring Tibetans from different regions to employ translators, or to resort to Chinese to communicate.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 9:56 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


shankara said:
Let's ignore the first point, again too mystical for me.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not mystical at all.



shankara said:
We can only work with the world we have here.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s your personal limitation,
once a species is gone, it is gone.
Impermanence. Sad, but factual.

shankara said:
You're right, humans aren't going extinct. There will however most likely be a few hundred million climate refugees, life is not going to be too fun for Earth people. We can still do something about this, and one of those things is not eating meat, or at least drastically cutting our consumption of it.



Malcolm wrote:
The supply of meat far outstrips demand. It’s subsidized by governments around the world and has been for decades. The problem is not at the consumer level. The problem is complex, international, and systemic. It’s not going to be solved by people in the US and Europe abstaining from eating meat. To think so, frankly, is naive.

This also has nothing to do with the subject at hand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 6:01 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


shankara said:
Too mystical for me. Will all the beings that die off when catastrophic warming destroys a good part of the planet's ecosystem also be liberated from Samsara?

Malcolm wrote:
There are many word systems where the Dharma exists, not only on this one.

The planet's ecosystem being "destroyed" is a rather fallacious concept. The ecosystem will change, rendering it inhospitable for some lifeforms, beneficial for others. We are already well beyond tipping points:

https://www.axios.com/2023/01/14/global-warming-accelerates-2023
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/31/1152738997/ai-is-predicting-the-world-is-likely-to-hit-a-key-warming-threshold-in-10-12-yea

Humans will certainly survive anything but the most dire, worst case scenario.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Translations of Longchenpa's Trilogy of Natural Freedom
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
It strikes me as curious that this series of works by Longchenpa has been so far overlooked by scholars and Western translators.  It appears that only the first part, Natural Freedom of the Nature of Mind, has been translated into a Western language or at least English, while the other two, the Natural Freedom of Reality and the Natural Freedom of Sameness, have never been, even though they are among his major works.  I wonder if these texts will be translated and if there is any particular reason why they have not been.

Malcolm wrote:
All three root texts were translated by Guenther ages ago.

These were recently retranslated by Padmakara as the Finding Rest Trilogy.

Ives Waldo has a complete draft of the long commentary of the first of these, which can be found here in sections:

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/the-great-chariot


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 4:53 AM
Title: Re: translated words of sadhanas and western style deities
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
Now everyone interested in this thread should know why they hate, or why they love, DzKR.

Malcolm wrote:
Why? Nothing he says here is controversial. I mean there are some Tibetan teachers who have the idea that we are supposed visualize things as if they are frozen in Tibet in the 18th century, but of course, of you have ever seen the six face Yamantaka which is exists at Samye, you will understand that the Tibetan portraits of wrathful deities is uniquely their own style, without any real Indian precedent, influenced mainly by Newar painting and statuary.

Indian Bhairava:



Nepali Bhairava:


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 3:50 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
heart said:
According to him what happens then is that through Tögal you arrive at Trechö.

Malcolm wrote:
The lamp of self-originated prājnā is trekchö.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 26th, 2023 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


haha said:
As I have already said it depends on what one has understood, I would not make any comment on translation (i.e. they all rely on particular source and interpretation).

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. The Snellgrove, Farrow/Menon, and Gerloff translations all rely on the Yogaratnamāla, and Farrow/Menon and Gerloff clearly depend on Snellgrove (who never received a single explanation of the text from a lineage holder).

On the other hand, in his commentary on the Hevajra Tantra, Sonam Tsemo comments on the vajra song, "Kolla and so on are explained according to the intimate instruction, not literally, [because] the meaning of the words have innumerable ways of being explained."

An attempt to read the text, or any tantric text, in absence of the intimate instructions which comes from the lineage is therefore completely spurious, and is just an exercise in forensic textual criticism, which is about the same as dissecting a cadaver in a morgue, and in many respects, just as ghoulish.

So, yes "those with compassion eat meat, those with samaya drink alcohol."

One way to benefit sentient beings is rest in a state of unification with that animal. Another way is to use a mantra such as the six syllables of Samantabhadra to plant a good cause. Another way is to use meat in a ganapuja, transforming it with mantra into amṛta. Vajrayāna is a path of special methods, not available to common Mahāyāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 26th, 2023 at 4:49 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
mirrormind said:
Ok, that is very clear. The hard distinction then is indeed drawn between whether meat is consumed in a state of distraction or non-distraction.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I also made this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 26th, 2023 at 2:10 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


shankara said:
the meat industry...

Malcolm wrote:
is worse than appalling. But that is not the subject of discussion here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 10:07 PM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
mirrormind said:
Liberation through eating is the most superior method of all? Liberation through hearing, seeing, tasting, wearing or shitro are only secondary to that?

Malcolm wrote:
I didn’t say that, did I? However, a special dependent origination is created which results in that being joining one’s retinue when one attains buddhahood, according to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and other teachers of mine.

mirrormind said:
Thanks for clarifying. It would not be essential then to put meat on one’s plate apart from the retinue aspect.

Malcolm wrote:
My teacher pretty much made it a condition. A reciprocal dependent origination is created, much as, for example, if one wishes to curse someone, you need a bit of their hair, etc.

mirrormind said:
That number is limited to 3000 beings anyway for some reason if I am not mistaken.

Malcolm wrote:
No, actually, that refers to those who achieve rainbow body in this life, not those who manifest the supreme nirmanakāya. They are different.

mirrormind said:
Doing practice around abatoirs, cemeteries and in supermarkets seems a viable, effective alternative without needing to feel miserable about the extent of one’s compassion.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN states in the book, Teachings on the Thun and Ganapuja:

"Accordingly, the Hevajra Tantra states, "Those who have compassion eat meat." In other words, if we refuse to eat meat on the grounds that eating meat involves harming the life of other beings, we are in fact rejecting the opportunity to give that animal a chance to join the path of liberation and this is not positive...Eating meat with compassion can benefit the animal and using mantra and visualizations, this can effectively create a positive cause for the animal. Thanks to the practitioner who has eaten its flesh, that being will one day find the path of wisdom and with that its transmigration in samsara will come to an end."

There is a caveat of course, is that the practitioner has to never eat meat in an ordinary way, and nor is this practice confined to a ritual context, as our friend opined. ChNN continues:

"Eating meat without distraction and in a state of awareness, as we do in the Ganapuja, creates a precise cause for liberation for that animal. How? When we eat meat we should have compassion, knowing that the animal has suffered in being killed for its flesh, and thus we eat with presence (dran pa) and awareness (shes bzhin). A serious practitioner who is experienced in contemplation creates a cause of liberation for an animal by eating its flesh with presence, and being, if only for a moment, in a state of unification with the poor animal. Those who do not have this capacity can at least create a positive cause for the animal by eating with awareness and by using the power of mantra. This should always be done, not just during the Ganapuja. Eating meat in this way eliminates much of its negative quality. So, for a practitioner who is aware and not distracted, eating meat yields more benefits than not eating meat."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 9:33 PM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, we are not agreeing on anything.

stong gzugs said:
What precisely do you disagree with?

Malcolm wrote:
We don't agree with each other. Cats and dogs.

stong gzugs said:
That may be what your specific oral tradition says,

Malcolm wrote:
Which is really all that matters in Vajrayāna.

stong gzugs said:
Thank you. Nor am I tell you what to practice, eat, or drink. I'm simply asking for you to be transparent about what the texts actually say vs. what's your specific interpretation of them. Especially when it comes to something this serious

Malcolm wrote:
I have been transparent about what the dominant tradition of Hevajra exegesis states as a living tradition, as opposed to your intellectual proliferation, which lacks a connection with said tradition.

ChNN's paraphrase, "Those with compassion eat meat, those with samaya drink alchohol," is how this verse is understood within the wider Sakya tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 9:57 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
mirrormind said:
But unless anyone feels they really need or want meat in their diet, I am sure there are superior methods to benefit beings than liberation through eating.

Malcolm wrote:
You'd think, but it isn't the case.

mirrormind said:
Outside of vajrayana considerations, I like to believe the 10% vegetarians and vegans in the US and EU do make a corresponding dent in meat production and sales, thus preventing at least some of the suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
Not even slightly. Supply by far and away outweighs demand.

mirrormind said:
Liberation through eating is the most superior method of all? Liberation through hearing, seeing, tasting, wearing or shitro are only secondary to that?

Malcolm wrote:
I didn’t say that, did I? However, a special dependent origination is created which results in that being joining one’s retinue when one attains buddhahood, according to Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and other teachers of mine.

mirrormind said:
Usually, in a market economy there is a correlation between supply and demand, even if a surplus is produced.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s what some people would have one believe, but it isn’t really demonstrable, especially since industrial agriculture is heavily subsidized globally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 6:46 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Samsara is pervasive.

mirrormind said:
Yes, there is no two ways about it. Yet we can at least hope harm can be minimised, and conduct can be as fine as flour.

Malcolm wrote:
Even if our conduct is as fine as atoms, we have no idea the harm we leave behind us.


mirrormind said:
But unless anyone feels they really need or want meat in their diet, I am sure there are superior methods to benefit beings than liberation through eating.

Malcolm wrote:
You'd think, but it isn't the case.

mirrormind said:
Outside of vajrayana considerations, I like to believe the 10% vegetarians and vegans in the US and EU do make a corresponding dent in meat production and sales, thus preventing at least some of the suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
Not even slightly. Supply by far and away outweighs demand.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 4:52 AM
Title: Re: Practice without a Guru
Content:
Muddy343 said:
How to establish practice without a teacher?

Malcolm wrote:
Find a teacher.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 4:46 AM
Title: Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana
Content:


Sādhaka said:
ChNNR said that it would actually block your path, for this entire lifetime, yea?

Malcolm wrote:
He said that it could.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 4:08 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
mirrormind said:
Surely, outside of ganapuja, meat does not land on anyone’s plate by accident. You either have bought and cooked it for yourself, ordered it yourself or taken it yourself from a buffet etc. If the objective is to benefit slaughtered animals, practice can be done inside or outside of abatoirs, and liberation through hearing can be said in butcher shops and supermarkets without the need to participate in the economic transactions around meat production.

Malcolm wrote:
This is a false equivalence--if you buy a vegetable at a grocery store that sells meat...people imagine they can isolate themselves from samsara, but, one really cannot. Samsara is pervasive.

As for the other part of your statement, yes, this is true. It does not prevent one from buying meat however and eating it, since meat itself has no consciousness and does not suffer. As long as it is pure in three ways, there is no fault.

On the other hand, when one consumes the flesh of an animal with a proper method, according to my guru, ChNN, that being will be reborn in one's retinue when one attains buddhahood. So, there is also that. Hence his reason for saying that Mantra practitioners who refused to eat meat had "miserable compassion."

Someone is bound to ask now, why don't we eat every kind of animal or even humans? Convention, of course. And if you think about it, it takes a certain amount of merit to be born a domestic animal, even one destined for a slaughterhouse.

Most of the classical Mahāyāna Buddhist arguments against eating meat appeal to selfish motives: i.e. eating meat results in going to lower realms. Let that sink in. Then reflect on whether that sort of motivation, based on self-interest, is really consistent with Mahāyāna.

Thankfully, our own liberation does not depend on what kind of diet we choose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
the broad variation of exegesis of the Hevajra Tantra's vajra song.

stong gzugs said:
So then we're starting to agree on a few things.

Malcolm wrote:
No, we are not agreeing on anything. You've attacked my translation. I proved it was valid, rendered on the basis of traditional sources as well as the intimate instructions of my teacher, which I have receive at his feet, both in groups and personally, one on one, when we went over this together.

Words and meanings must go together, something you seem to fail to grasp here.

stong gzugs said:
So, to be clear, I'm not denying your right to your view. I'm asking you to be responsible in your public communications and to let people know that your blanket support of factory-farmed meat-eating is an extreme view that relies upon extensive re-interpretation of the actual verses of the tantra, the context in which those verses occur, and that contradicts at least two of the key commentaries.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no contradiction at all, apart from the contradictions your limited, and somewhat hysterical, imagination imposes. But I think it is sad that you feel that animals who have been killed in industrial farming should be be denied a chance for a positive connection through liberation through hearing based on your ideological and narrow-minded biases.

Anyway, I am not telling you what to practice, eat, or drink——you can do as you please.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 12:23 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


Gyurme Kundrol said:
In a nutshell, samsara is suffering, to live is to kill.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, which is why we practitioners need methods like liberation through hearing in order to benefit countless migrating beings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 25th, 2023 at 12:15 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


ThreeVows said:
The ones mentioned already praised vegetarianism even without modern farming methods.

Malcolm wrote:
Not really. Patrul called into question the whole of the food production system, including agriculture, as one massive exercise in cruelty.

But people do not read carefully nor in context. The context of this passage is the suffering of suffering. It is not a moral imperative:

When lamas and monks arrive at the house of a patron, the sentient beings killed by the patron are served after their flesh and blood has been cooked. Since the lamas and monks crave flesh and blood without any regret or compassion at all for the slain sentient beings, when they are served according to their pleasure, there is no difference at all between the patron and the recipients in terms of the misdeed of taking life. Also, when a great personage arrives somewhere, countless lives are taken for the purpose of tea parties and festivities. However many cattle and sheep a wealthy person has, in the end every one is slain when they get old. [120/a] Apart from the one or two that die naturally, countless lives are taken. 

In addition, in the summer those cattle and sheep eat many insects, bees, ants, fish, frogs, snakes, baby birds, and so on along with grazing grass. Countless lives are taken by trampling hoofs, within horse manure and urine, and so on. 
Among horses, cattle ,and so on, these sheep are a source of inexhaustible nonvirtue. As shown above, they eat all kinds of small creatures. During the summer wool season, there are one hundred thousand creatures on the backs of each sheep, and all of them are killed. All the ewes are milked. The lambs are killed for their meat and hides. All the rams are killed without exception. When sheep lice occur, one hundred million creatures on the back of each sheep are killed. Therefore that owner of one hundred sheep definitely will be born in hell one time. [120/b] 

Also, countless sheep are slaughtered when women are given farewell parties, welcoming presents, and so on after betrothals. Thereafter every sentient being that group returning to her home will be killed. In the same way, even when invited by friends and relatives, though given other food to eat, she acts like she has no appetite. That deceitful woman eats as if she does not know how to chew. But after each one of the fattened sheep are killed, having set a huge amount of ribs and intestines in front of her, that red-faced ogress sits right down, draws her little knife, and eats with relish. The next morning after loading up that fresh carcass, she returns to her home. Since she never returns empty-handed after going out, she is worse than a hunter. 

Also, countless creatures seen and unseen are killed during the playtime of children. Countless sentient beings are killed when picking grass or flowers. [121/a] Therefore, like ogres, we humans pass our time continuously engaged in the act of taking life. In one lifetime, having killed the female cows who kindly sustain us like parents with drinking milk for our use, we enjoy their flesh and blood. Upon reflection, we are worse than ogres.

And the context of this passage is the suffering of the conditioned:

The cause of all these sufferings is only nonvirtuous deeds. If this is illustrated, it is like tea and roasted barley flour. For tea, a seed is planted in China. When the leaves are pruned and so on, countless creatures are killed. Below Dartsedo, tea is carried by human porters. Each man carries twelve six-packs on their heads. Even though one can see the white bone where the skin of their foreheads has been rubbed off, they continue to carry the tea. Above Dartsedo the tea is loaded onto dzo, yaks, mules, and so on; those animals experience inconceivable sufferings such as broken backs, punctured lungs, and so on. Also when that tea is sold, without any consideration of promises or decency, business is done through deceit and fighting. [82/b] Also, most business involves sheep’s wool, lamb skins, and so on. 

When sheep are sheared, many creatures, smaller than a hair, such as ticks, tre le and so on exist living on the bodies of sheep. Most of those are decapitated, maimed and die when the sheep are sheared with a knife. Their internal parts protrude. Those who do not die are trapped in the wool and suffocate, resulting in birth in lower realms. Some lambs born when all of their sense organs are completely developed and so on are slaughtered for their skin. When one reflects on the causes and trade of such things, even a single sip is nothing other than a cause for lower realms. 

Also in pursuit of roasted barley flour, first, when one turns the fields, all of the insects under the ground are exposed on the surface.All the insects above the ground are crushed underneath. The mouths of crows and birds ceaselessly peck at the insects in the tracks of the plough beasts. Similarly, when water is led into the fields, all the creatures who live in the wetlands are dried and exposed. All the creatures who live in the drylands are killed bymoisture. Similarly when the seeds are planted, harvested, and flailed, countless beings are killed. If one reflects on those, it is like eating flowers made of insects. Similarly, even though the so-called “three sweets and three whites” such as butter, milk and so on are considered to be faultless, they are mostly products of slaughtered half-breeds, calves, lambs and so on. Even those who are not killed are tied at the neck as soon as they are born without being able to suckle even a sip of their mother’s milk. When they stand, they are tethered. When they travel, they are tied together. Whatever milk they suckle, the entire portion of food and drink is stolen. They are made to carry it. The nutriment of the mother’s body that sustains the life of the child is stolen. They are neither dead nor alive…They stumble when they walk, barely alive.

Similarly, when reflecting on everything that we consider happiness, the food we eat, the material we wear on our backs, all food and enjoyments are proven to be only suffering and nothing else. The final result of all these misdeeds that one must experience is endless suffering. Also, all appearances of present happiness are said to be the suffering of the conditioned.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 11:43 PM
Title: Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)
Content:
VajraDude said:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3064584/

Malcolm wrote:
"gold making plant juice"

The Tibetan term for this, "gser 'gyur rtsi" literally means "the juice that changes things into gold." Rtsi, hilariously, also means "paint."

This somewhat supports the Chinese origin theory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
pemachophel said:
Shabkar Tshogdrug Rangdrol

Malcolm wrote:
Shabkar actually pulls his punches a little bit. He is not the strident vegetarian activist some try to make him out to be.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 11:06 PM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:
Sādhaka said:
I prefer the Dzogchen explanation and Aggañña Sutra over materialist ideas of "evolution".

Malcolm wrote:
They are not in contradiction to one another, if you really think about it carefully.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Furthermore, of the four translations, three of them agree with each other and with the major commentary on how to render that verse...

Malcolm wrote:
There are eight major commentaries on the Hevajra Tantra, most important of which is Saroruha/Padmavajra's Padmini (Hevajratantrapañjikāpadminīnāma. Kye'i rdo rje'i rgyud kyi dka' 'grel padma can zhes bya ba, Dg.K, ka, rgyud, (Toh. 1181)).

My translation is based on Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen's interlineal notes on the Hevajra Tantra (Kye’i rdo rje zhes bya ba'i rgyud kyi rgyal po." In Sa skya bka' 'bum ma phyi gsar rnyed phyogs bsgrigs. TBRC W20751. vol 3, pg. 647. Lha sa: s. n., 1999).

In line with the Sakya oral lineage through Drokmi Lotsawa, Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen bases his own rendering on Saroruha's exegesis, which can be found on pp. 325-326 of the Padmini.

Thus, this is the standard set of interlineal notes on the vajra song found in the Medium-length Six-Limb Hevajra sadhana (on which I did a three year retreat 1993-1997).

Ha ha took this from my translation of that sadhana, which was recently published by Shambhala (Sakya: The Path with Its Result, pg. 179, Shambhala, 2022).

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was raised in the Sakya tradition—as was I—and received this explanation—as I did. More than that, he received the explanation for all eight major commentaries. So, he was quite aware of the broad variation of exegesis of the Hevajra Tantra's vajra song.

Finally, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu summarized this teaching for us thousands of times: "Those with compassion eat meat; those with samaya (the diligent) drink alcohol.

stong gzugs said:
the fourth is wildly discrepant.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is actually the normative version, based on the Padmini.

As for your quotes of Kun bzang bla ma'i zhal lung, you do realize that not only does Patrul criticize butchers, he also criticizes farmers for all the countless creatures they injure while farming and sheep-shearers for all the countless insects they mangle in wool?

Everything we do in this life is harmful to something, whether we intend it to be so or not. But I have long been of the opinion that the most strident vegetarians among Buddhists are actually former Jains reborn outside of India.

Following Bhavaviveka, we really do not have to avoid meat that is pure in three ways. He addresses the Lanka and so on. Those exhortations that even such meat is not pure are not definitive statements, quite clearly.

This is why Sapan can write in the Clear Differentiation of the Three Vows, pg. 66:

A disciple may partake of meat that is pure
in three ways; to refuse it would be 
on of Devadatta's austerities.
In the Great Vehicle,
meat is forbidden: meat-eating, it is taught, 
causes birth in the lower destinies.

Similarly, certain differences in what is allowed
and not allowed exist among the violations
against the codes of the Great Vehicle Perfections and Mantra traditions.
How could invariant sanctions and bans be reckoned
for such radically divergent systems? 

It is wrong, therefore, to apply
one-sidedly schemata of
invariant prohibition and allowance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 8:20 PM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Doesn't consuming meat and alcohol fall under Vratcārya?

Malcolm wrote:
No.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 8:00 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Boomerang said:
I've never read it myself, but here's a quote from Lama Zopa Rinpoche crediting a meat mantra to a Manjugosha tantra.

stong gzugs said:
Interesting! Any chance you identified which tantra is being referenced?

Malcolm wrote:
The tantra says, "those with compassion eat meat; those with samaya drink alcohol."

stong gzugs said:
Got a chapter/verse for that quote? I'd like to see the context. If it's purely within the context of the five meats being prepared in a ritual manner for the ganacakra ritual, I don't see how the text would therefore support other uses of meat-eating. I searched through Snellgrove's translation of the Hevajra for all references to meat/flesh and alcohol/wine and I couldn't find it. Most of the quotes I saw were about ganacakra and/or ways of obtaining lower siddhis.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s there. You just have to know how to see it. It’s not in Snellgrove.

stong gzugs said:
There also are some absurd consequences that might follow from this Dzogchen interpretation. For instance, you can have beef jerky for months/years before eating it. By the time you eat it and say the mantra, the animal would have already gone through the bardo realm and been reborn.

Malcolm wrote:
By the time one eats any meat the animal in question has already gone through the bardo.



stong gzugs said:
Does the reborn animal then disappear and rapture up to the realm of the devas when a dzogchenpa says the mantra? Or does the positive effect somehow last over an entire lifetime and then reassert itself upon death?

Malcolm wrote:
The effect lasts until the being is liberated as a result of the positive cause created by the dependent origination facilitated by the practitioner for that being. And, when the practioner attains buddhahood themselves, all those beings will be part of their retinue.

stong gzugs said:
What if the beef jerky cattle is reborn as a human, and the human does some really bad acts that should doom it to a hell-realm? Does the mantra from when they were eaten as cattle balance out the negative throwing a karma they accrued as a human, etc. This starts getting absurd very quickly.

Malcolm wrote:
The dependent origination of liberation through hearing even benefits those who have committed the five misdeeds of immediate retribution, not to mention all sentient beings of the six realms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 6:22 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:



Boomerang said:
If you believe animals can only be benefited in a properly done ritual, you could eat some meat at the restaurant

Malcolm wrote:
can't use leftovers for tsok.

Boomerang said:
Thank you for teaching me. Fortunately I can say I've never done that. It was just an idea I had.

Malcolm wrote:
For people who are really hung up on "ritual contexts" there are always very simple rituals you can use to turn any meal into a formal ganapuja, which one can use without one's friends not even know what one is doing. It's called "eating yoga."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 6:13 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
stong gzugs said:
In the context of this conversation, outside = when you're at a restaurant for the purpose of eating food for sustenance rather than when you're in a ganacakra and eating them for the sake of non-dual wisdom.

Boomerang said:
If you believe animals can only be benefited in a properly done ritual, you could eat some meat at the restaurant

Malcolm wrote:
can't use leftovers for tsok.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 6:00 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
For a practitioner this is never, nothing is outside ones sadhana. This is why we have waking yoga, washing yoga, eating yoga, yoga of passion, etc.

stong gzugs said:
But we don't apply the instructions for waking yoga to yoga of passion, do we? This is my exact point. My claim is that the Indian tantric texts of course say we can eat meat in the specific ritual context of ganacakra. But I don't believe they enjoin us to eat meat outside of that context. And I especially don't believe they claim that eating meat with a mantra will help liberate the animals we eat. I'm just asking for clear textual evidence from the Hevajra for where I'm wrong in these two claims. It may very well exist, I'm not an expert on this tantra. But I'd like to see it.


Malcolm wrote:
The tantra says, "those with compassion eat meat; those with samaya drink alcohol."

The yoga of eating applies to all meals one may have. Of course, if one is a practitioner, one cannot eat meat in an ordinary way.

And I didn't say that Hevajra Tantra has a mantra for liberating animals.

The Cakrasamvara Tantra however states that any being who comes into contact with a practitioner experiences positive causes for liberation. You might object, this refers only to living beings. But there are always traces in any being's consciousness which link it to its previous forms.

That mantra is from the 17 Man ngag sde tantras and is part of the system of six liberations, which are unique to the Dzogchen tradition. Liberation through seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and of course, thinking. There are many methods for creating positive causes for sentient beings. This is just one of them. It is a general mantra for creating positives causes. It can also be recited to any creature, living or dead to the same effect. It is not a mantra specifically for eating meat.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 5:26 AM
Title: Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana
Content:
Passing By said:
it seems trekcho is just as easy to misunderstand since it's also experiential

Malcolm wrote:
Trekcho is more difficult to explain, in fact.

natusake said:
Which leads us to the interesting question - why was ChNN so open in teaching trekcho but not thogal?

Malcolm wrote:
Because without being stable in trekcho, practicing thogal can result in dualistic grasping, which will block one's path.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Soma999 said:
The problem is not eating meat per se. The problem is what the meat industry is now in this world.

Malcolm wrote:
Right, so we abandon animals because we do not like the economics of our society?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 5:17 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Since when is one who practices the two stages ever outside this context?

stong gzugs said:
In the context of this conversation, outside...

Malcolm wrote:
For a practitioner this is never, nothing is outside ones sadhana. This is why we have waking yoga, washing yoga, eating yoga, yoga of passion, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 4:07 AM
Title: Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)
Content:
stong gzugs said:
I'm very open to suggestions about alternate readings/sources.

Malcolm wrote:
Learn Tibetan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 4:03 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


stong gzugs said:
My question is still whether the Hevajra tantra itself has a quote that describes meat-eating completely outside of a ritual context as compassion?

Malcolm wrote:
Since when is one who practices the two stages ever outside this context?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 2:08 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen points out the meat and alcohol are indispensable in the ganapuja.

stong gzugs said:
Yes, that's why I made the distinction between eating meat in the ritual context vs. eating it at KFC, following Dölpopa. We can all do the former, but there's really no need to do the latter as we don't live in hostile climates like Tibet. If you have quotes from the Hevajra that specifically condone KFC meat-eating, rather than meat-eating within ritual practice, I'd be surprised.

It's also the case that the five meats are supposed to be seen as disgusting conventionally, so eating them during the tantric ritual reveals non-dual wisdom (advayajñāna). That's not at all the same as eating well-prepared meats during everyday meals outside of a ritual context.

Malcolm wrote:
My teacher, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, said it was really more beneficial to eat mystery meats, it creates a positive cause for more animals.

stong gzugs said:
I can't fathom that such a great teacher would condone eating factory farmed pink-slime type chicken nuggets. Are you sure this wasn't just an upaya for a specific student, rather than a general rule? My guru once chain-smoked a bunch of cigarettes in front of a student who was overly idealizing him, but I didn't take away the lesson to pick up smoking...

Malcolm wrote:
I can sum it up for you: ChNN stated this opinion to thousands of his students over the years—quoting the Hevajra Tantra to this effect thousands of times, and mentioning getting fast food for this purpose, hence the broad use of sausages in DC ganapujas, since more beings would be benefitted.

Eating is not a ritual, and ChNN made the point that we should eat meat because we understand the principle of benefitting animals through methods, not only when we are doing a collective practice. He said, thousands of times, Vajrayāna practitioners who refuse to eat meat have miserable compassion. You ask any DC person who posts here. They will confirm what I am telling you, 100%.

Ultimately we are to go beyond pure and impure in our choice of food, treating pink slime and pure sattvic food as the same. But, baby steps.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 1:59 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:


ThreeVows said:
In terms of the path, it may be fair enough to say that the higher level vows supercede the lower level vows, but ultimately I think it may be considered that all three can be held without conflict.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, because the higher vow supersedes the lower: for example, say one takes posadha vows on the full moon, and later that day there is a ganapuja. Having a meal after noon, eating meat, and drinking alcohol normally would be considered a breach of Mahāyana posadha vows, but in this case, it is not.

And in the case of lay person with a qualified partner, also enjoying the yoga of passion would not violate the posadha vows.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 1:41 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it's actually not a problem

stong gzugs said:
I don't think Bhavaviveka anticipated the rise of factory farming under the capitalist mode of production. Almost nobody kills animals, sees animals being killed, or has animals killed for them precisely because of the horrors of factory farming. That's why Dölpopa's quote is so prescient: he's pointing out that negative karma doesn't dissipate when we enter into market transactions. Samsara isn't individual anymore, it's built into our systems.

Malcolm wrote:
It has always been systematic. Sarvadukkha.

stong gzugs said:
And there's a huge difference between mixing meats with juniper berries into pills as part of a tantric ceremony and going to KFC and saying "Om Ah Bi Ra Hung Khe Tsa Ra Mum Svaha" over a chicken nugget. Given that these nuggets are made from a pink slime composed from tendons and muscle fiber of hundreds of chickens, do all of them get liberated and reborn in a higher realm?

Malcolm wrote:
My teacher, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, said it was really more beneficial to eat mystery meats, it creates a positive cause for more animals.

stong gzugs said:
(It's also the case that a lot of the lines about eating meat in tantra are symbolic.

Malcolm wrote:
No, not in the case of the Hevajra tantra quote. Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen points out the meat and alcohol are indispensable in the ganapuja. In a general way, if one is a practitioner and one refuses to eat meat, then one's compassion is limited. Advice against eating meat and drinking alcohol does not apply to Vajrayāna practitioners, it only applies to sūtra followers. This is why Sapan points out that what is forbidden to śrāvakas is permitted for bodhisattvas and vice versa, and what is prohibited for bodhisattvas is permitted for secret mantra practitioners. The three vows do not have one intention. And Longchenpa composed a hilarious and wonderful Praise to Booze.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 1:34 AM
Title: Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Alchemy, the “way of mercury” (rasāyana), was essentially a Hindu enterprise in India; there are no extant Buddhist texts devoted to the subject.

Malcolm wrote:
That's simply false. Aren't you a kalacakra devotee? Kalacakra has mercury preperation for rasāyana.

The Vajrapāṇiabhiṣeka Tantra mentions mercury rasāyana. It was translated by Silendrabodhi and Yeshe De in the late eight century.

Don't believe everything you read by western academics on religion. They make a lot of errors when they opine outside their field of study.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 1:19 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
Natan said:
Lol. Released? Are you serious? That was a long time ago pal

Malcolm wrote:
They have not been released. He only finished his four year program on the Chos dbyings mdzod last fall in Alameda. You weren't there.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 24th, 2023 at 1:07 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
stong gzugs said:
If you're at a restaurant and want to chant a mantra to prevent yourself from incurring negative karma from meat-eating...

Malcolm wrote:
It's not about preventing negative karma from eating meat, it's about creating a positive cause for the animal whose remains end up on your plate.

stong gzugs said:
And before someone trots out the "it's not a problem because you didn't kill the animal yourself" trope,

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it's actually not a problem if you did not kill the animal yourself, see it killed, or learn that it was killed for you specifically. Bhavaviveka addresses this issue at length in the Tarkajvala, and comes down on the side of it being fine to eat meat that is pure in three ways, since meat does not suffer anymore than wool, leather, and so on, since there is no mind in meat, just as there is no mind in wool or leather.

And as the Hevajra Tantra points out, "Those with compassion eat meat."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 23rd, 2023 at 9:04 PM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:
Aemilius said:
What is at stake here is "who were the inhabitants of UttaraKuru?" Also called the Kurus. And "where is or was the UttaraKuru?"

From the older Buddhist sources of Agama sutras and the Abhidharmakosha-bhasyam of Vasubandhu it is very clear that UttarKuru is on the opposite side of the planet in relation to the Jambudvipa.

Malcolm wrote:
Only if you think he was talking about spherical planet.

But he wasn’t.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 23rd, 2023 at 8:59 PM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Natan said:
Treasury on Dharmadhatu does not supercede Treasury of Clear Meaning,

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it does actually. Longchenpa introduces explanations he does not include in the more normative Tshig don mdzod and theg mchog mdzod. He also wrote it after the tshig don mdzod. It’s his magnum opus, his definitive statement on Dzogchen.

Natan said:
No. Khenpo Namdrol said this teaching was the greatest achievement of his life. You can toot your own horn all day. I know what the teacher said

Malcolm wrote:
You really don’t know everything Khenpo Namdrol has said on the subject of Longchenpa. How could you? When the transcripts of his Chos dbyings mdzod teachings are released, you will have an opportunity to revisit your present opinion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 23rd, 2023 at 1:31 AM
Title: Re: Meat Eating Mantras
Content:
Muddy343 said:
Did Padmasambhava approve of meat eating mantras?

Malcolm wrote:
There are many termas with mantras for purifying the consumption of meat.

The most common is the Six Dimensions of Samantabhadra:

'a a sha sa ma ha

'a a ha sha sa ma.

Either form is ok.

But even oṃ maṇi padme hūṃ may be used.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 22nd, 2023 at 10:27 PM
Title: Re: Is it okay to eat meat & be in an unclean place while reciting the 21 Taras praises?
Content:
AmidaB said:
How this time-related cleanliness thing works?
Even when I was a kid and saw the  first 'Gremlins' movie I didn't understand the "Don't feed the mogwai after midnight" rule. It's always after midnight...
So, what makes someone ritually(?) clean for the morning after gobbling up a hearty mutton momo fest for supper?

Malcolm wrote:
Dawn. That is why for example, when we take one day vows (posadha), they expire at dawn. The interval from dawn to dawn is the interval we consider to be a "day."

AmidaB said:
Is it some kind of astrological change or solar power or the dawn simply sign the expiration time?

Malcolm wrote:
A solar day lasts from dawn to dawn. So, when one takes posadha vows, they expire at dawn. If one has a daily practice commitment you have the entire period of one day to the next to complete it, etc. if you break some samaya in a minor way it is repaired by reciting vajrasattva 21 times everyday, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 22nd, 2023 at 10:22 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
Aemilius said:
That is merely an assumption. How do measure "the practice of Dharma"? How do you measure mindfulness of body, sensations, mind and dharma(s) ? How can you say a person is or is not mindful, even when they are working in the market place ? or in some other place?

Malcolm wrote:
Serious question: have you ever travelled in a Buddhist country? I have, and I can tell you that most Tibetans I have met, both inside and outside Tibet, know very little about the Dharma and conduct themselves, generally speaking, like most worldlings. It is the same in Japan.

Aemilius said:
You don't have to travel very far to meet worldly tibetans or worldly japanese, etc... They come to Europe (and other places).
And still, it is difficult to know some one's alaya-consciousness, what kind of seeds there are, that will sprout during the nexts 100 million years.

Malcolm wrote:
So, you’ve never traveled in a Buddhist country. I thought as much.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 22nd, 2023 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Natan said:
Treasury on Dharmadhatu does not supercede Treasury of Clear Meaning,

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, it does actually. Longchenpa introduces explanations he does not include in the more normative Tshig don mdzod and theg mchog mdzod. He also wrote it after the tshig don mdzod. It’s his magnum opus, his definitive statement on Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 22nd, 2023 at 11:17 AM
Title: Re: Reasons to take refuge in the three jewels
Content:
Pårl said:
Hello everyone,

I am going to go for refuge in July. I have already made that decision, and I will not falter.

I am very interested in other people's reasons for taking refuge in the three jewels, if anyone would like to share?

Many thanks,

Paul

Malcolm wrote:
Fear, faith, and compassion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 21st, 2023 at 9:15 PM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
Natan said:
The four modes of placement and space like non meditation are in most respects a shyamatha.

Malcolm wrote:
You will revise this idea once you have read Khenpo Namdrol’s commentary on the Treasury of the Dharmadhatu.

What is true is that some modern teachers seem to teach the four cokzhak as a kind of Dzogchen shamatha, but it is not the real meaning.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 21st, 2023 at 5:09 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:


Natan said:
Longchenpa certainly doesn't. Why? Guru, lineage, pith instructions

Malcolm wrote:
Sure he does. You have not read everything he wrote on the subject.

Natan said:
I read his definitive treatment of the subject. And all the Treasuries. Did you think he forgot? This is the teaching of Khenpo Namdrol.

As a matter of fact, the prerequisite to thogal ie the space like no meditation, the four chozhag are not tregcho at all. They are shyamatha. Tregcho is sort of a weird outlier. It's a decision.

Malcolm wrote:
You do you.

In any case, the klong gsal tantra is pretty clear:

If the meaning of trekcho is not clear,
even if thogal arises, it will possess subject and object.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 21st, 2023 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
Natan said:
Longchenpa has a lot to say about Tregcho and Thogal. One thing he doesn't say is Thogal is depending on Tregcho.

Malcolm wrote:
The tantras that are his sources certainly do.

Natan said:
Longchenpa certainly doesn't. Why? Guru, lineage, pith instructions

Malcolm wrote:
Sure he does. You have not read everything he wrote on the subject.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 20th, 2023 at 10:40 PM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:




Sādhaka said:
Theosophists (Manly P. Hall 33° et al) suggest the Gobi Desert.

Not too far off....

Turanians, Tataria, Tartary, etc. (e.g. see John Yarker)

Kai lord said:
Unlikely because Gobi desert conditions are harsh and too extreme to support large population of humans. On the other hand, regions between the Altai mountains and the Baikal lake have great lakes, rivers and moderate climate which provide excellent living conditions for nomadic tribes and the scenery there are also captivating enough to lead people into thinking that its some kinds of utopia .


Sādhaka said:
I'd forgotten to mention back in the days of the 'Turanians' and so on, that the Gobi Desert may have had conditions conducive to being more inhabitable; more similar to the current—as you mentioned—Altai mountains and Baikal lake.

If you want some laughs though, look at some of the Google reviews of the current Gobi Desert.

Malcolm wrote:
The Gobi desert was certainly smaller and more habitable. It has been severely degraded by grazing and so on in the intervening time. Cutting down all the forests around Lake Kokonor 90 years ago certainly hasn't aided the situation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 20th, 2023 at 8:37 PM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:



Kai lord said:
Many Indians believe and identify Russia to be Uttarakuru, which is the fairy land for blessed souls in Vedic legends. Hence the idea of strong affinity emerges.

Malcolm wrote:
Ptolemy identifies the central Asian steppes as the place where the Kurus live.

Aemilius said:
This conception of Kurus or Kuru people is a later one.

Malcolm wrote:
The point is that Ptolemy, who never stepped outside of Egypt, writes about these people.

You seem to think Indian mythology is axial mountain by which we should judge all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 20th, 2023 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Is it okay to eat meat & be in an unclean place while reciting the 21 Taras praises?
Content:
AmidaB said:
How this time-related cleanliness thing works?
Even when I was a kid and saw the  first 'Gremlins' movie I didn't understand the "Don't feed the mogwai after midnight" rule. It's always after midnight...
So, what makes someone ritually(?) clean for the morning after gobbling up a hearty mutton momo fest for supper?

Malcolm wrote:
Dawn. That is why for example, when we take one day vows (posadha), they expire at dawn. The interval from dawn to dawn is the interval we consider to be a "day."


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 20th, 2023 at 2:38 AM
Title: Re: Is it okay to eat meat & be in an unclean place while reciting the 21 Taras praises?
Content:
Boomerang said:
I thought the general rule for Green Tara practice was that you have to abstain from the black foods (meat, garlic, etc.) and maintain cleanliness. And these rules are the reason why Green Tara practice is generally done in the morning, before Tibetan people eat any meat.

Malcolm wrote:
As a kriya/carya tantra practice, yes.

Boomerang said:
But I've heard that it's normal to recite the praises to the 21 Taras every morning and night. So I would assume people are often eating meat during the day, and then reciting the praises later on at night.

Malcolm wrote:
The praise to 21 Taras contains both peaceful and wrathful manifestations. Also, there are many Tāra practices that are at the level of Highest Yoga Tantra. And if one is a highest yoga tantra practitioner, those rules may not necessarily apply.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 19th, 2023 at 11:19 PM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The DNA evidence:

https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/new-dna-analysis-shed-light-to-indo-european-homeland


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 19th, 2023 at 9:40 PM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:
Aemilius said:
Naturally I hope that I am utterly  wrong, but I have encountered a very different science (coming from Russia and India) concerning the history in this particular period.

Kai lord said:
Many Indians believe and identify Russia to be Uttarakuru, which is the fairy land for blessed souls in Vedic legends. Hence the idea of strong affinity emerges.

Malcolm wrote:
Ptolemy identifies the central Asian steppes as the place where the Kurus live.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 18th, 2023 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
Aemilius said:
That is merely an assumption. How do measure "the practice of Dharma"? How do you measure mindfulness of body, sensations, mind and dharma(s) ? How can you say a person is or is not mindful, even when they are working in the market place ? or in some other place?

Malcolm wrote:
Serious question: have you ever travelled in a Buddhist country? I have, and I can tell you that most Tibetans I have met, both inside and outside Tibet, know very little about the Dharma and conduct themselves, generally speaking, like most worldlings.  It is the same in Japan.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 18th, 2023 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: The Spread of the Proto-Indo-European Language
Content:
Aemilius said:
If you didn't know it, there are hundreds of videos in Youtube that prove it 'scientifically' that Proto-Indo-Europeans did not bring anything at all to India!

Bristollad said:
Interesting.  How do they explain the correspondences between the proto indo-european language family members?  Do they posit an Indian origin of this language family which then spread westwards?

Malcolm wrote:
The Hindutva view, promulgated in the west by people like David Frawley, is that everything comes from India. Of course, Michael Witzel shredded Frawley’s contentions about this.

Nonetheless, the Hindutva people are correct to note that the way tne Indo-European invasion theory was framed was basically racist.

Even so, there is overwhelming evidence for successive migrations of Indo-European speaking people migrating out of the Central Asian Steppes, both into India around 1500 BCE, as well as westward into Syria (think Hittites), etc. Dumezil outlines the deep narrative structures in myth and culture , which are distributed from northern India to Scandinavia, and everywhere in between.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 17th, 2023 at 12:13 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
tobes said:
I just cannot for the life me square danaparamita with market based exchanges.

PadmaVonSamba said:
You don’t have to square anything. The two are totally unrelated.
Dana is for your benefit.
Paying fixed costs is to benefit others.

You aren’t required to do either one. There’s plenty of free dharma in the world. Help yourself.

tobes said:
If danaparamita is done for my benefit than it is not danaparamita.

Malcolm wrote:
Actually, if Dana is contaminated with any sense of identity, whether self or other, it’s not the paramita of Dana.

So let’s just be honest, most Dana is contaminated, and that is also ok.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 17th, 2023 at 12:08 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


tobes said:
FPMT does not charge fees,

Malcolm wrote:
False. Wisdom is part of FPMT and they certainly charge fees.

So does Vajrapani:

https://vajrapani.org/upcoming-retreats/649/green-tara-weekend-retreat-to-mitigate-global-warming/

Commuting – $100.00
Women's Dorm – $200.00
Men's Dorm – $200.00
Women's Quad – $250.00
Men's Quad – $250.00
Private Room- Double bed – $300.00
Private Room- Twin Bed – $300.00
PRIVATE RETREAT CABIN – $400.00


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 17th, 2023 at 12:08 AM
Title: Re: Looking for Tibetan medicine teacher in the states
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I graduated from the first class of Shang Shung. It's hands down the most comprehensive program in Tibetan medicine you are going to find anywhere.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 11:49 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
but without the mahayana ground, it easily turn into pure poison.

Malcolm wrote:
You are confusing "tantra" with Vajrayāna. Mahāyāna is baked into Vajrayāna.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 5:52 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
1.So, then that’s the exact opposite of what is taught in  ‘37 practices of a Bodhisattva’

2. If a student doesn’t pay for teachings, this is also out of self-interest. How does it increase overall utility?

Malcolm wrote:
The funny thing here is that Dana is almost exclusively given out of self interest, I.e the accumulation of merit.

Aemilius said:
Have you seen it with your impartial wisdom eye? How can you make such a vast claim, I wonder, which doesn't accord with reality. There is also the motivating factor of genuine, selfless  love and compassion.


Malcolm wrote:
I can make that claim because most Buddhists engage in merit-making to secure a favorable rebirth.  Very few actually practice the perfection of generosity. For example, this sutta:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.039.than.html

Indeed, in Thailand, so I’ve heard, people keep little ledgers where they record their acts of generosity, counting up their merit like so many coins.

Even in Mahayana, we are encouraged to accumulate merit, not merely for the benefit of others, but in order to benefit ourselves. Thus the claim that the merit of donations is purely altruistic might be true in the case of someone who has actually realized emptiness—such as yoursel, presumably—but the rest of us who are concerned with not taking birth in lower realms principally accumulate merit out of self-interest, hoping one day to secure the conditions for achieving the awakening which will largely not be realized by us in this lifetime.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 9:46 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
tobes said:
when individuals act out of self-interest, on either the supply or demand side of the equation, surplus value is created and everyone is better off. Ergo, it is always morally right to act out of self-interest because overall utility increases.

PadmaVonSamba said:
1.So, then that’s the exact opposite of what is taught in  ‘37 practices of a Bodhisattva’

2. If a student doesn’t pay for teachings, this is also out of self-interest. How does it increase overall utility?

Malcolm wrote:
The funny thing here is that Dana is almost exclusively given out of self interest, I.e the accumulation of merit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 3:05 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


tobes said:
Yep, find me an economics department which even knows that it exists though. The point is that this quote justifies what is axiomatic to free market economics: that individuals acting out of self-interest accidentally produce mutual benefit. When I say axiomatic, I couldn't be more literal - it is baked into every economics graph.

And dare I say, baked into peoples' minds as if it is an ontological truth.

Malcolm wrote:
Even Wealth of Nations does not actually support the erroneous imputations made from that passage.

Virgo said:
It would be nice if Tobes addressed this.

Virgo


Malcolm wrote:
The point Smith making has not to do with selfishness, but rather, the division of labor, as he states just after the famous baker passage,
As it is by treaty, by barter, and by purchase, that we obtain from one another the greater part of those mutual good offices which we stand in need of, so it is this same trucking disposition which originally gives occasion to the division of labour. He frequently exchanges them for cattle or for venison, with his companions; and he finds at last that he can, in this manner, get more cattle and venison, than if he himself went to the field to catch them. From a regard to his own interest, therefore, the making of bows and arrows grows to be his chief business, and he becomes a sort of armourer. Another excels in making the frames and covers of their little huts or moveable houses. He is accustomed to be of use in this way to his neighbours, who reward him in the same manner with cattle and with venison, till at last he finds it his interest to dedicate himself entirely to this employment, and to become a sort of house-carpenter. In the same manner a third becomes a smith or a brazier; a fourth, a tanner or dresser of hides or skins, the principal part of the clothing of savages. And thus the certainty of being able to exchange all that surplus part of the produce of his own labour, which is over and above his own consumption, for such parts of the produce of other men's labour as he may have occasion for, encourages every man to apply himself to a particular occupation, and to cultivate and bring to perfection whatever talent.
Smith, Adam. An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations . University Of Chicago Press. Kindle Edition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


treehuggingoctopus said:
The people you do it all with matter very, very much. I have come to believe that this is the crucial ingredient here (not very surprising, actually).

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, which is why Vajrayāna works better in small settings with an intimate atmosphere. Tobes implied this at the beginning:
Sure. But if we have a group of Dharma practitioners, perhaps crystalising around someone further on the path who acts as a teacher
The part I find fault with the is the notion that we are undoing anything of the sort:
- then we have a group of individuals who are all undoing neoliberal intentions for actions.
I think this is flawed axiom. Why? Because they all are themselves working, functioning in a market society and making decisions about where they are going to spend their money.

You see, in a pre-market society, like Tibet, it would be a question of where one was going to spend time, not money.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 2:12 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Expenses-wise, the venue is the biggest hurdle. I need to build a barn.

Malcolm wrote:
Then there is paying for the translator, which can be very expensive.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Tibetan-to-vernacular, yes. English-to-vernacular, I have always done for free.

(Actually, the biggest issue with the venue is not even the money. It is the scarcity. One needs a place that can host so many people, who, as they are hosted will be making strange noise, and who will at some point need token amounts of alcohol and meat. I would never have expected it to be so bloody difficult, but yes, the combination of these factors makes such places as rare as anything.)

Malcolm wrote:
And all therefore within the confines of supply and demand, unless of course you upgrade your septic system and build a barn, which won't be in use most of the time...

That's the problem with the market society, it's like the atmosphere. We can try to route around it, but it isn't easy unless we have personal resources which we command, that...depend on the market for their value. It is a really unsurmountable issue for as long as we live in the global political economy we have.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 1:57 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Expenses-wise, the venue is the biggest hurdle. I need to build a barn.

Malcolm wrote:
Then there is paying for the translator, which can be very expensive.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Nemo said:
Poland has closed the border with Belarus.

Malcolm wrote:
No. It has only closed four border crossings. Two remain operational,

150k Russian troops have built up there. Reconnaissance drone incursions concentrating on Kyiv and Western Ukraine.
No, it is not more than 15,000, not 150,000. 97% of Russian forces are committed to Ukraine.

Nemo said:
Moldova reporting Russian operatives activated to destabilize the government.

Malcolm wrote:
This has been going on for some time.

Nemo said:
Russian assaults on the front have paused.

Malcolm wrote:
Not sure where you are getting your news, but no...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 1:32 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Yes, you have to cover the expenses somehow...

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, those pesky expenses...expenses like health care, food, housing, etc.

treehuggingoctopus said:
I have to say, too, that many of the money related issues that get my particular goat could be avoided by greater transparency, more democratic control and more accountability...

Malcolm wrote:
Dharma organizations are not noted for their transparency, democracy, or accountability.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 12:48 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Not sure what they yes refers to, so I will clarify: the German money does not sponsor the DK events here, or their routine activities. What it does is create a situation in which a teacher (who has minimal demands, btw) may entirely waive the dana bit.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that's the point.

treehuggingoctopus said:
The dana, however, is (here at least) a tiny portion of the expenses of running an event.

I do not like the feudal sponsorship-based model. I do not like the market model either, not one bit. We clearly have to organise events, which obviously means being able to cover the expenses, and to that extent we will be working within the market model.

Malcolm wrote:
It's not a model, it's reality. It is our real situation.


treehuggingoctopus said:
But even the diehard commie that I am will admit that within that model there is a range of possibilities. We may aim for the inclusive-but-modest (scaled fees, appeals for special cases, labour/money exchange, etc.), and warn again the dangers of commodification -- which are there, as ChNN and so many others repeatedly said. That is probably the best one can hope for for the time being.

(I am speaking here as an organiser, not just a participant, btw.)

Malcolm wrote:
The problem comes here: where does sustainability end and commodification begin? I've observed ChNN raise 80k in 10 minutes. He gave himself a frozen shoulder to make trinkets, to be sold to raise money for Dzamling Gar, which are now so in demand that one cannot even purchase a key chain made by him for less than 1000 euros. FInally, ChNN was a privileged tulku from a wealthy family. His situation was not the same as Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, for example. KDL stated quite clearly that there were many instructions he could not receive because he did not have the required wealth to make offerings for this and that instruction. So the idea that the Dharma was all for free in Tibet is just not accurate.

Dont get me wrong, I support the idea of people being able to attend any event for free, means or not. However, I expect that people who have means will make a reasonable donation to support their teachers. Why? Because I have been trained that one should never receive a dharma teaching without making offerings, either through sustaining one's teacher by membership in an organization, or making a donation per teaching. So, I always make an offering in consideration of my means whenever I take teachings from another teacher. That is our culture in Tibetan Buddhism. It's does not matter much to me if it is framed as a "fee" or a "donation." These are just words.

What I am objecting to here is framing the discussion in terms of political economy, using labels like "neoliberalism" and so on, when it is so clearly obvious that we do not and cannot operated outside of the economic framework in which we live.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 12:12 AM
Title: Re: Is the attainment of Awakening/Buddhahood in Vajrayana historically been accepted by non-Vajrayana Mahayanist as val
Content:
Nalanda said:
Is the attainment of Awakening/Buddhahood in Vajrayana historically been accepted by non-Vajrayana Mahayanist as valid?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, no.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 12:07 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:



treehuggingoctopus said:
Not the local bunch here. (Although the aforementioned patron means that the local branch are entirely unconcerned about the dana for the teacher, last time they even forgot to bring envelopes. And the teacher encouraged it, and was surprised when he saw that someone wants to offer him something.)

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and this is the point.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Not sure what they yes refers to, so I will clarify: the German money does not sponsor the DK events here, or their routine activities. What it does is create a situation in which a teacher (who has minimal demands, btw) may entirely waive the dana bit.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that's the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 16th, 2023 at 12:01 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
All of them very reasonably priced; and although there is a standard fee nominally, they do not really care, and many people attend for much less. And yes, they are also the nicest Dharma group I have met, relatively unbothered by what happens elsewhere on a fairly regular basis.

Malcolm wrote:
They have an extremely wealthy patron in Germany.

treehuggingoctopus said:
Not the local bunch here. (Although the aforementioned patron means that the local branch are entirely unconcerned about the dana for the teacher, last time they even forgot to bring envelopes. And the teacher encouraged it, and was surprised when he saw that someone wants to offer him something.)

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and this is the point.

But this opens the question: do we really want Dharma Institutions to depend on the whims of an economic elite, as it has for the past 2500 years? Or do we prefer to have a more crowd-sourced model going forward?

Right now, Dharma Institutions are almost entirely dependent on capital gains earned in the market, which are donated by private, high value individuals. Previously, in every country, the Dharma was supported/sponsored by a small aristocracy who controlled primitive capital accumulations. In both cases, Dharma Institutions were controlled/sponsored by an elite who controlled private wealth. And yet, people are still encouraged to offer dana so they can earn merit, with virtually nothing returned to the local community, and everything going into statues, temples, and brocades. Buddhism does not even have a temple economy, like in the ancient mideast. Classically speaking, dana is nothing more or less than the nonproductive destruction of surplus value for an intangible: merit, punya, bsod nams. These days, large Buddhist foundations have investment portfolios.

And the market has a further role.  We have seen over the years fads of interest in various different lineages and teachings: from Kalacakra to Dzogchen and everything in between. Demand for some teachings increase and at the same time, demand for other teachings wane. We have seen, in the economic history of Tibet, institutional dominance controlled the supply of various lineages, leading to clear hegemonies of Dharma Institutions in various parts of Tibet. Not only this, but elite sponsorship of Dharma Institutions governed the spread and development of Dharma in disparate parts of the Buddhist world, from Śrī Lanka to Japan and everywhere in between.

Nothing much has changed, actually. Right now, the Robert Ho Foundation, Tsadra Foundation, Khyentse Foundation, etc. are almost entirely responsible for most of the funding of Dharma publishing, translation projects, and so on, in the West.

So when I hear people complain about "neoliberalism" in the Dharma, I have to chuckle, because any honest assessment of the situation must come to the conclusion that it is precisely the market society that is making the funding of Dharma possible today, because that is the global society in which we live.

So we have to work with circumstances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 15th, 2023 at 11:36 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
All of them very reasonably priced; and although there is a standard fee nominally, they do not really care, and many people attend for much less. And yes, they are also the nicest Dharma group I have met, relatively unbothered by what happens elsewhere on a fairly regular basis.

Malcolm wrote:
They have an extremely wealthy patron in Germany.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 15th, 2023 at 11:40 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


tobes said:
The famous metaphor from Adam Smith - the baker and the person buying bread do not meet out benevolence; the meet on the basis of self-interest and both end up better off.

Malcolm wrote:
The most misquoted passage of Smith ever. You must know that Smith’s main treatises was his Theory of Moral Sentiments:
How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortune of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it except the pleasure of seeing it.

tobes said:
Yep, find me an economics department which even knows that it exists though. The point is that this quote justifies what is axiomatic to free market economics: that individuals acting out of self-interest accidentally produce mutual benefit. When I say axiomatic, I couldn't be more literal - it is baked into every economics graph.

And dare I say, baked into peoples' minds as if it is an ontological truth.

Malcolm wrote:
Even Wealth of Nations does not actually support the erroneous imputations made from that passage.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 15th, 2023 at 8:10 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


tobes said:
The famous metaphor from Adam Smith - the baker and the person buying bread do not meet out benevolence; the meet on the basis of self-interest and both end up better off.

Malcolm wrote:
The most misquoted passage of Smith ever. You must know that Smith’s main treatises was his Theory of Moral Sentiments:
How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortune of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it except the pleasure of seeing it.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 15th, 2023 at 3:39 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


jet.urgyen said:
if in vajrayana there might be a charge then, in modern society, it is called also a customer.
and goods and services are regulated by commercial laws.
maybe this charging is also about compliance with the local regulations? (taxes?)

Malcolm wrote:
Most large dharma organizations are non-profits, meaning that they do not have to pay taxes, or churches, meaning they do not have to report their revenue. They issue receipts so that people can take a tax deduction.

In the US, most small scale teachers only accept donations, to avoid the tax issues, since gifts are neither reportable nor taxable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 15th, 2023 at 2:11 AM
Title: Re: Google Panics Over ChatGPT
Content:



Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 15th, 2023 at 1:47 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The students.

Cinnabar said:
Pretty much. Which is why we charge for teachings.

Malcolm wrote:
Thus the moral of the story is, if you don't want to be a student, then don't make offerings. If you do, don't complain about the cost of the programs you wish to attend. If you have limited means, make arrangements such as work study, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 15th, 2023 at 12:45 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
Cinnabar said:
I guess the question is who pays for the venues where dharma teachings are offered?

Malcolm wrote:
The students.

Cinnabar said:
And the translation of dharma texts, their printing, binding?

Malcolm wrote:
The students.

Cinnabar said:
Who pays for interpreters for the teachers?

Malcolm wrote:
The students.

Cinnabar said:
Who pays for offerings, ritual items, and so on?

Malcolm wrote:
The students.

Cinnabar said:
Who pays for the transportation costs for visiting teachers? for translators?

Malcolm wrote:
The students.

Cinnabar said:
And then there are the costs in supporting visiting teachers-- food, medicines, personal items? Who pays for the visas other immigration costs for visiting teachers?

Malcolm wrote:
The students.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 14th, 2023 at 10:43 PM
Title: Re: Vajramaster? How to make a career as vajramaster?
Content:
yeshecat said:
Hello

I am a westerner. And I have thought about to become a buddhist priest so called vajramaster?
Is this possible? What are the requirements and how can I train to become a vajramaster?


Malcolm wrote:
You find a guru. You receive lots of teachings on sutra and tantra. You do long retreats, a year or more, and ideally you learn to at least read Tibetan fluently. In 20 years or so, you might be qualified, if it is permitted by your teachers.

In the meantime, keep your day job.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 14th, 2023 at 10:39 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
tobes said:
But this not a vibe I'm finding at all in these threads. I'm finding an overwhelming sense of it being 100% clear and obvious, and that I'm being a complete imbecile/dogmatist/iconoclast etc to even prod at this sense of certainty.

Malcolm wrote:
You began by framing the discussion in terms of “neoliberalism.” Arguably, neoliberal economic relations, beginning with the British Empire, opened new territories into which  Buddhism could spread. Just as arguably, Islam provided a more efficient economic model which undermined Buddhism in Central Asia, Indonesia, and so on.

No one is in the Dharna to become rich, despite the millions of dollars a year the heads of lineages receive in donations and personal gifts.

In the West, we have a type of economic society that did not exist at the time of the Buddha. Everything here is done with money. No one brings gold, or their yaks and horses anymore as gifts to receive Dharma teachings.

There is only one way people can support the Dharna these days: either through volunteer labor or cash. If the Dharma you want to study is sufficiently important to you, then you will spend whatever is necessary for you to receive it, either by donating your time or cash.

People who care about the Dharma will support teachers, translators, yogis, and publishers. People who don’t, won’t. Supporting the Dharma is meritorious whether one is paying a subscription fee to belong to a program, like at Tara Mandala, or making a donation to 84000 or BDRC, buying a Dharma book, etc.

If you are worried about the program fee/price being dana, then just think of the program price/fee as dana and relax.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 14th, 2023 at 11:00 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


tobes said:
The mods can clarify.

Yes, part of the argument here is that commodifying something fundamentally changes the nature of that thing.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not an argument, that’s an assertion, one you will have a hard time defending.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 14th, 2023 at 10:56 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


tobes said:
I get this and I grant it. If there are costs they need to be met. If it is a retreat for example, and food, accommodation is required, then of course a fee is necessary. Likewise a Dharma teaching that is large and may require the hiring of a hall or something, of course a fee is the best approach.

Still none of this touches my core position, which is that Dharma is highest gift. It is not overthinking to propose this, it is something the our tradition has long held dear.

Bristollad said:
the only fees I’ve ever hard to pay are to cover cost of the overheads: food accommodations materials venues etc.

I’ve never had to pay a fee for the Dharma.

I’m happy on top of those necessary fees to make a voluntary donation expressing my gratitude to the teacher, organisation and so on.  You say you understand the necessity of fees but seem to be suggesting it’s improper to levy them… I find your position confusing.

tobes said:
My position is that at times - as aforementioned - it is necessary to set a fee. But there are also many occasions when fees are not necessary, and this is the ideal.

Malcolm wrote:
Just to clarify things for you. I have no set fees for teaching. I also don’t have a bricks and mortar situation, no dharma center, etc. My point is a bit different. If someone is interested in a set of teachings, one will participate in the required manner. Thus, dogma about what is correct and what is not correct really should not enter into one’s decision making. If dharma is essential for you personally, you will do what it takes to receive it. That’s the point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 14th, 2023 at 10:08 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


tobes said:
Mainly I'm getting the sense of: I am so waaaay off I should be shut down. Why is this, I wonder?

Malcolm wrote:
No, but you are trying establish a dogma. Reality and dogma are generally inconsistent with each other.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 14th, 2023 at 1:54 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Nemo said:
Bakhmut is a convenient meat grinder. That is how wars of attrition work. Start grinding and see who runs out of meat first. Mossad put Ukr losses in Bakhmut at 14 brigades but it's all based on satellite reconnaissance so it's not very reliable. Many dead were probably recovered. It's very likely in the end 100,000 men will have died over this insignificant town.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and the Russians can stop their genocidal war whenever they choose or they are defeated.

Nemo said:
Throwing an entire country into the meat grinder. Victory or death. How noble and brave of you.

Malcolm wrote:
You are confused. The US did not start this war. Russia did. You need a reality check.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 13th, 2023 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Nemo said:
Bakhmut is a convenient meat grinder. That is how wars of attrition work. Start grinding and see who runs out of meat first. Mossad put Ukr losses in Bakhmut at 14 brigades but it's all based on satellite reconnaissance so it's not very reliable. Many dead were probably recovered. It's very likely in the end 100,000 men will have died over this insignificant town.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, and the Russians can stop their genocidal war whenever they choose or they are defeated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 13th, 2023 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
tobes said:
A common argument here seems to be: one's motivation for not paying for Dharma is stinginess, greediness or not valuing the Dharma, or valuing those who have put time and energy into cultivating the Dharma.

But this flies in the face of all the traditions who have striven hard and made so many sacrifices to **offer** the Dharma. There is a curious refusal or cognitive dissonance to look at this, and ask: why? Why has this been such a thing?

Malcolm wrote:
Tergar has 50k subscribers. They need a team to work full time providing services. Much of what they do is also supplemented by volunteer labor. But the full time people need to be paid, such as the technicians,  web designers, etc. They pull in roughly two million a year, and spend it.

Likewise, IMS, a major Theravadin organization, charges for their retreats. Here is the link to their annual report: https://www.dharma.org/about-us/annual-report/. It is clear from this link that in order to do what they do, they both need to charge for retreats and receive donations.

People might think Goeneka retreats are free, and they are, right up until you get lobbied hard in your final meeting at the end of the retreat, where strong pressure tactics are employed for donations.

The impossibility of escaping the logic of the market society is well framed by this Dharma organization:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5ea89f201cb17c2bc91df20c/t/61edec3eee7ff04677d6de26/1642982466012/DG+2021+Annual+Report.pdf

Even where Dharma organizations charge, as we can see in the case of IMS, their fees are supplemented by donations, without which they cannot function.

My books are expensive. Why? It’s not because I make money from them, I don’t. They are expensive because the dignity of the Dharma demands that they be printed and hardbound with a slipcover. No one is sponsoring Wisdom books to make sure they are able to give away all of their books for free.

84,000 is making their library of translations available, but they are not in book form, and so we know they are ephemeral until printed. If our society collapses, those files on storage media go poof!

So, dana is nice, but for most large Dharma orgs in the west, it isn’t enough to make ends meet. If people can’t make ends meet, they won’t work for Dharma organizations and they won’t work on translations of Dharma texts, etc.

We live in the society we live in. So, we should work with our circumstances rather than engage in counterproductive and dogmatic moralizing about dana, and just do our best. In Buddhadharma, we don’t just do things because it is “tradition.” We use our wisdom to see what is best for promoting the Dharma. These days that seems to involve a combination of dana and set fees for most Dharma events and products. It’s just unavoidable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 13th, 2023 at 12:13 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:


tobes said:
The last frontier is religion.

Malcolm wrote:
Arguably, religion was the first thing for sale, not the last.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 13th, 2023 at 12:05 PM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
tobes said:
- we have here a way which can undo the problem at its root.

Malcolm wrote:
Personally, but not globally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 13th, 2023 at 10:18 AM
Title: Re: Because the Dharma cannot be owned, it cannot be sold
Content:
tobes said:
Okay, so after some of the thread closures on related topics, I'm going there. Please keep it civil.

Some propositions:

Malcolm wrote:
The Dharma came into existence before the market society. The market society finds its origin in 1836, if one follows Polyani’s historical analysis.

Now everything is in the market. That includes Dharma.

Work with circumstances.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 13th, 2023 at 8:59 AM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
I imagine that none of us are shrinking violets

stong gzugs said:
Yes, but let’s not fall prey to the classic issue of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias. Sure, everyone who is active on here can handle the argumentative discourse,

Malcolm wrote:
The polemics here are pretty vanilla, including Archie”s snowflake comment. You should try reading Tibetan polemical literature sometime. I’ll respond to the rest tomorrow.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 13th, 2023 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: How do I explain the costs/fees of "services"?
Content:
Nalanda said:
how could I explain that what we are doing is not in violation of any sangha norms?

Malcolm wrote:
Different Sanghas have different norms.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 13th, 2023 at 12:37 AM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
And ashraya is indeed a Sanskrit equivalent of gzhi

Malcolm wrote:
In the context of Dzogchen, it is not. I'ver misplaced the reference, but Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo very clearly gives the equivalent as gzhi in a the context of the standard trio of base, path, and, result. gzhi here is a translation of sthāna,

In other contexts, of course, it can be, āśraya, ādhara, bhūmi, all kinds of term. But what it isn't, in this context is a translation of āśraya, nor is it a ground of being.

The basis in dzogchen is the nature of the mind and also anatomy of the body.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 12th, 2023 at 11:21 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
A lot of what goes on here falls under what he would describe as wrong speech.

Malcolm wrote:
I imagine that none of us are shrinking violets, and understand that when it comes to correct and incorrect speech, we can only moderate ourselves, and not others.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 12th, 2023 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
As I said above, the implication that people teach or follow gzhanstong because they are weak/fragile is ridiculous given the long list of profoundly realized gzhanstongpas.

Malcolm wrote:
It is not as ridiculous as it sounds. Here's why: All gzhan stong pas admit that they are meditating on emptiness free from extremes when in nonconceptual equipoise. If one is not meditating on emptiness free from extremes in a nonconceptual equipoise, there is no chance one is going realize the path of seeing.

Thus, gzhan stong, like the tathāgatagarbha theory in general, is taught for the reasons listed in the Uttaratantra, in order to give people confidence in the Mahāyāna path, and also for the reasons given in the Lanka, in order to provide a on-ramp into Buddhadharma for those who are afraid of the profound emptiness of Mahāyāna. It is for this reason then it is a) criticized as being a transitional view between false aspectarian yogacāra and madhyamaka (Rongton), c) a distorted mashup of madhyamaka and yogacāra that misrepresents both (Tsongkhapa) and b) a view outside of pale of the buddhadharma (Rendawa), or d) a mildly eternalistic view (Gorampa) that is inconsequential if one is a Vajrayāna practitioner.

Politically speaking, gzhan stong tends to be a right wing view, if one follows the reasoning of Adorno's refutation of Heidegger in the former's Negative Dialectics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 12th, 2023 at 2:42 AM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
But my understanding is also that the mind of attainment (bodhi) is not a composite. So does that mean that upon awakening, a composite ceases to be a composite? That can’t be the case, because it would still have arisen as the result of conditions. It couldn’t be called ‘unconditioned’.

Malcolm wrote:
The mind that realizes suchness is compounded. It doesn't change its nature just because its object is suchness. But that realization is irreversible.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 12th, 2023 at 2:33 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Nemo said:
Why would a Tankie care what Russia did? Do you think they are still Soviets?

Malcolm wrote:
They still seem to.

Nemo said:
The genocide argument is not factual.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure it is.

Nemo said:
Show me the genocide in Crimea.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/27/genocide-ukraine-russia-analysis/

Nemo said:
A crap deal is better than being dead.

Malcolm wrote:
During the American Revolutionary War, anyone would have thought the British would have annihilated Washington's Army.

Nemo said:
The outcome was always obvious unless you pretended BOTH Russian troops would refuse fight and NATO weapons were miraculous. You need to drink a lof of Kool Aid to believe both those things.

Malcolm wrote:
Phillips Payson O’Brien strongly disagrees.

For example, this is you:

Although the Ukrainians almost immediately proved far more formidable than nearly anyone had anticipated, lulls in the war play to the expectation that Russia will soon start massing its supposed great reserves and recover the situation on the battlefield. The underlying assumption is that Ukraine has little hope of ultimate triumph over a fully mobilized Russia. In this account, the longer the war goes on, and the more rounds of forced conscription that Vladimir Putin and his military impose on the Russian population, the more decisive Russia’s supposed advantages will be.

This is the EU:

In recent days Norway, Finland, the Baltic states, Poland, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia have all promised continued support for Ukraine. These donors do not believe that NATO membership alone will protect them from Russian military interference; their security now hinges on Putin’s Russia being vanquished.

This is Ukraine:

Still, Ukraine has most of the advantages that typically decide a war. Its forces will be better trained, better led, and, with the West’s help, far better armed. And most Ukrainians’ determination is likely to remain strong, in part because they don’t have any choice but to win.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/01/russia-ukraine-weapon-production-nato-supply/672719/


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 10:14 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
The notion that Buddha Nature just means emptiness is https://buddhanature.tsadra.org/index.php/Books/When_the_Clouds_Part/Different_Ways_of_Explaining_the_Meaning_of_Tath%C4%81gatagarbha, and one that I don't find particularly compelling. I quite like how Brunnhölzl described the 8th Karmapa's view (see also "When the clouds part: The Uttaratantra and its meditative tradition as a bridge between sutra and tantra.")
The Karmapa emphasizes that the tathāgata heart is the only ultimately real entity, which is permanent and able to perform functions (such as enlightened activity). He also repeatedly says that the tathāgata heart and sentient beings are mutually exclusive since sentient beings are nothing but the sum of adventitious stains. Thus, sentient beings neither possess nor are the tathāgata heart. This also means that it is not the case that buddha nature exists in sentient beings, but sentient beings (seem to) exist in buddha nature, just like clouds floating in the sky without affecting it.


Malcolm wrote:
Advaita in Buddhist drag.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 10:11 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
ground of being (ashraya or gzhi)

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such term as “ground of being” in Dzogchen, and the Sanskrit for gzhi is sthana, as in sthana, marga, phala.

Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
Ground of being

Malcolm wrote:
Is a Christian theological term coined by Paul Tillich. Therefore, it is inappropriate in a Buddhist context. There is no ground of being, since there is no being at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 3:04 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
What remains is a mind.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Well obviously.
Is the mind self-arisen, or dependently arising?
If self-arisen, then what distinguishes it from atman?
And if the mind is dependently arisen, how can it be that which is realized upon awakening?

That’s the question I am asking.

Malcolm wrote:
Minds are dependently arisen.

What is realized upon awakening is that the mind is empty of inherent existence because it is dependently originated.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 2:59 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
Abhijñājñānābhibhu said:
ground of being (ashraya or gzhi)

Malcolm wrote:
There is no such term as “ground of being” in Dzogchen, and the Sanskrit for gzhi is sthana, as in sthana, marga, phala.

The mind arises from the conscious aspect of the basis, which can be deluded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 12:06 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:


Nemo said:
The math is not complicated. How will this tiny force win against a larger one with superior firepower?

Malcolm wrote:
The Ukrainians have superior logistics and are better at war than the Russians in every respect.

The Russian troops have no incentive to fight effectively. And their firepower is not superior. It’s quite incompetent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 9:53 AM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
Thus so is awareness. But the question remains whether this affliction-free mind of awareness is a composite or a singularity.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no question about this at all. A mind stream is composed of parts, I.e moments. There is no awareness apart from a mind, the former is a quality of the latter.

Anything made of parts is empty. That emptiness itself is not compounded.

PadmaVonSamba said:
So, are you saying that when the obscurations of the mind (kleshas) are removed, what remains, the mind’s true nature, is a composite?

Malcolm wrote:
What remains is a mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 9:22 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Nemo said:
It's simply a question of resources. Ukraine never had the resources to win. Fully mobilized with conscription they were barely able force Russia into a stalemate losing 20% of their land and roughly 40% of their natural resources. Then Russia engaged conscription and those troops will be arriving presently. NATO will not engage directly due to Russian nuclear and biological arsenals. Ukraine will have to make a deal and it will be a worse deal then the original peace deal. 250,000 soldiers are dead and generations worth of infrastructure was destroyed for nothing. Ukraine will be a failed state. NATO cannot build weapons fast enough. They are boutique and overpriced. Sold as force multipliers far beyond their real world capability to justify their ridiculous price tags. Crimea was neither a slaughter or a genocide. It was grown ups knowing when fighting was useless. Having the US supply weapons piecemeal until the last Ukrainian is dead is a cruel sacrifice that only benefits US interests.

Malcolm wrote:
Typical tankie perspective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 4:16 AM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
If we assert that the awareness which passes through various lifetimes is a singular entity (and not a composite), then this is essentially no different than asserting the concept of atman, which Buddhism rejects.

But if we assert that the awareness which passes through various lifetimes is a composite, then how can its true nature be tathagatagharba (Buddha nature) if tathagatagharba is not a composite?

Malcolm wrote:
the mind is empty of affliction by nature. That’s all Buddhanature means.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Thus so is awareness. But the question remains whether this affliction-free mind of awareness is a composite or a singularity.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no question about this at all. A mind stream is composed of parts, I.e moments. There is no awareness apart from a mind, the former is a quality of the latter.

Anything made of parts is empty. That emptiness itself is not compounded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 3:21 AM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
If we assert that the awareness which passes through various lifetimes is a singular entity (and not a composite), then this is essentially no different than asserting the concept of atman, which Buddhism rejects.

But if we assert that the awareness which passes through various lifetimes is a composite, then how can its true nature be tathagatagharba (Buddha nature) if tathagatagharba is not a composite?

Malcolm wrote:
the mind is empty of affliction by nature. That’s all Buddhanature means.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:


Svalaksana said:
One, semantics. SG Stoltenberg says won't happen, same meaning, same outcome.

Malcolm wrote:
A pledge is quite distinct from an opinion made a year ago.

Svalaksana said:
Two, irrational actions. If he's rational, then he's unpredictable or capable of anything.

Malcolm wrote:
Putin is not capable of anything. He can threaten use of tactical nukes all he likes. If he dares to use them, Russia will be far worse off than before on the world stage. It is highly unlikely there would be nuclear retaliation from western powers. It isn't necessary.

Svalaksana said:
Three, involvement does not necessarily beget escalation nor direct action, as projected.

Malcolm wrote:
It will happen should Russia choose to continue this war. The EU cannot afford to lose Ukraine. It is of vital strategic importance for EU security.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 11th, 2023 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
One, no pledge was made.

Two, Putin is a rational actor.

Three, NATO is already involved.

Svalaksana said:
One, semantics. SG Stoltenberg says won't happen, same meaning, same outcome.

Two, irrational actions. If he's rational, then he's unpredictable or capable of anything.

Three, involvement does not necessarily beget escalation nor direct action, as projected.

Still fail to see where the certainty comes from.



Malcolm wrote:
Only Orban looks uncomfortable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 10th, 2023 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana
Content:


ThreeVows said:
In terms of an initial path, perhaps, I think it's not unreasonable to emphasize compassion quite a lot, and more broadly the brahmaviharas/bodhicitta.

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhicitta is exclusively buddhist. The brahmaviharas are not.

ThreeVows said:
Yes, I think that's fair, I was responding generally to the 'compassion' thing and expanded on that a bit. Although I think it's possible that in particular cases, what beings mean in their own minds when they say 'bodhicitta' isn't functionally particularly different than love or compassion.

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhicitta means very specifically to wish to attain buddhahood in order to be of benefit to others. It isn't just compassion. It is much more than compassion. It's important to keep that in mind.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 10th, 2023 at 10:45 PM
Title: Re: Dependent Origination in Mahayana
Content:


ThreeVows said:
In terms of an initial path, perhaps, I think it's not unreasonable to emphasize compassion quite a lot, and more broadly the brahmaviharas/bodhicitta.

Malcolm wrote:
Bodhicitta is exclusively buddhist. The brahmaviharas are not.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 10th, 2023 at 10:04 PM
Title: Re: Awareness: singular, or composite?
Content:
↑ said:
What is your answer to this apparent conundrum?

Aryjna said:
Its nature is that it doesn't have a nature, as it is an aggregate and does not really exist. So there is no problem.

PadmaVonSamba said:
But awareness has the qualities of luminosity and infinity, and in terms of mindstream, continuity. So, that’s what I’m mainly talking about: continuity, or what one might refer to as flow.

Malcolm wrote:
Luminosity is just a name for intrinsic purity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 10th, 2023 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:


Svalaksana said:
In the present case, NATO would be facing a madman, probably with dementia and limited life expectancy, with a stalinistic control over society and the military, and backed up by a nuclear arsenal. Pushed into a corner, such a character is unpredictable and capable of taking rash, irrational decisions. Wholly different circumstances altogether.

Malcolm wrote:
One, no pledge was made.

Two, Putin is a rational actor.

Three, NATO is already involved.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 10th, 2023 at 10:51 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:


Svalaksana said:
What leads people here to believe NATO will officially involve itself in this mess, after they have declared so many times their adamant unwillingness to get their hands dirty as long as no NATO nations are under attack?

Virgo said:
What choice do they have?

Virgo

Svalaksana said:
To remain faithful to their pledge of non-intervention is a choice.

Not saying it's my preferred one, but it's a valid one and the one they've apparently taken. Why would they change their stance is what I would like to know.

Malcolm wrote:
No such pledge was ever made. NATO “intervened” in Sarajevo, etc. NATO is a security organization. When that security is threatened, you bet they will intervene, as they should.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 10th, 2023 at 3:57 AM
Title: Re: What are you watching? Any good?
Content:
DharmaJunior said:
Also, I wanted to find tusla city on netflix but haven't found

Malcolm wrote:
It's on paramount.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 9th, 2023 at 9:09 PM
Title: Re: Lineage vs. self proclaimed teachers in dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You would be breaking samaya in the miost serious way and your life will be filled with obstacles.


gelukman said:
Example if I have never practiced what I am teaching, but I have received
a genuine reading transmission? Now I am proclaiming my self as a teacher. And I will
now give Wang, Lung, and Tri on a weekend course. People cannot realize that I have actually only permission to
give a reading transmission.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 9th, 2023 at 11:28 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
PeterC said:
We have to blame the current state of US politics for not exploring ways to de-escalate -

Malcolm wrote:
Strongly disagree.

We have to blame Putin for his ultranationalist agenda, which led him to illegally annex Crimea and start a war in Eastern Ukraine in 2014, after the Euromaiden protests.

PeterC said:
Agree.  I am no supporter of his, he is an expansionist and pretty much fits the definition of fascist.  But what's the gameplan - is his defeat possible? On what terms?  At what cost?

Malcolm wrote:
As to question 2. Yes, Russia’s defeat is completely possible.

As for question 3 and 4, that’s up to the Ukrainian people. I suspect that nothing short of the total expulsion of Russian troops from their borders are the terms, and the cost will be that if the Ukrainians do not prevail, liberal democracy in Europe is finished. This conflict is existential. That’s why, sooner or later, NATO will be fully involved.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 9th, 2023 at 11:06 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
PeterC said:
We have to blame the current state of US politics for not exploring ways to de-escalate -

Malcolm wrote:
Strongly disagree.

We have to blame Putin for his ultranationalist agenda, which led him to illegally annex Crimea and start a war in Eastern Ukraine in 2014, after the Euromaiden protests.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 9th, 2023 at 9:49 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Russia used Ukraine to try and fracture the Atlantic consensus, by systematically interfering with Ukraine's wish to join the EU and NATO.

Nemo said:
The US promised to protect Ukraine.

Malcolm wrote:
Russia also guaranteed Ukraine’s security. Who broke their promise? It wasn’t the US.

Nemo said:
According to the three memoranda,[5] Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia, and that they agreed to the following:
Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.[6]
Refrain from the threat or the use of force against the signatory.
Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by the signatory of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against the signatory.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.

Malcolm wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

Russia has violated all of these pledges to Ukraine.

Whatever else one may not like about the US, it’s not responsible in any way for Russia’s genocidal war of aggression against Ukraine, which started in 2014.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 9th, 2023 at 4:51 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:


Nemo said:
The actual results are Ukraine was used as a pawn to weaken Russia and in most respects it failed at incredible cost.

Malcolm wrote:
No. Russia used Ukraine to try and fracture the Atlantic consensus, by systematically interfering with Ukraine's wish to join the EU and NATO.

Nemo said:
Ukraine is devastated...

Malcolm wrote:
Russia did that, all by themselves. They can cease their invasion anytime they want. No one is compelling them to carry out a genocide against Ukrainians.


Nemo said:
The miraculous US weapons extended the war 18 months costing untold lives and billions of dollars. The US military looks musclebound and it's production capability anemic. Sending Ukraine 3 million dollar Patriot missiles when they need reasonably priced artillery shells.

Malcolm wrote:
The US has thus far sent 1,000,000 155 milimeter shells:
The ammunition the United States has sent to Ukraine includes not just the 155-millimeter shells for howitzers, but also guided rockets for HIMARS launchers, thousands of antiaircraft and anti-tank missiles and more than 100 million rounds for small arms.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/us/politics/pentagon-ukraine-ammunition.html

Nemo said:
Ukraine never had the numbers to win unless you pretended Nato weapons were magic.


Malcolm wrote:
Or, as seems to be the case, the Russian military is hugely incompetent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 8th, 2023 at 8:26 AM
Title: Re: Lama Jampa Thaye
Content:
laowhining said:
However, to categorically state that receiving teachings from different teachers is evidence of lack of faith and not being serious is very limited, imo.

Matylda said:
Of course it is nothing wrong with seeing different teachers in the beginning; nobody expects from the newcomer to be aware of what is good for oneself. But there is time to settle down. Then one has to focus on one thing, one teacher, at least for some longer time; otherwise one will never learn anything. If a teacher who is reliable makes a strong remark, do not move, stay, and you will get proper benefit, then it is what one should do. Lack of faith is commonly spread in this world and time.

Malcolm wrote:
Hi Matylda:

Vajrayāna does not work the way Zen does.

Even if one is very committed to one teacher, in Tibetan Buddhism it is common practice to receive teachings from many other teachers, and is quite encouraged.

Most Vajrayāna practitioners have multiple teachers in multiple lineages, including David Stott aka Lama Jampa Thaye. Of course, if Lama Jampa Thaye does not wish to mentor people, who like himself, have multiple teachers, that's entirely his prerogative.

My personal approach to this issue is that I don't answer questions from students about transmissions they've received from other teachers. But it does not mean I refuse to discuss things with them or meet with them, etc. But my preferences are not everyones' and I would hesitate to negatively judge Lama Jampa, just as I would hesitate to judge the student who expressed dissatisfaction in being told that he or she, unawares, have entered into an exclusive relationship. There is no one right way here.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 7th, 2023 at 2:19 AM
Title: Re: the fifth precept, alcohol
Content:


seeker242 said:
Ok,I don't really see what any of that has to do with drinking beer though. Nobody needs to drink beer. There is really no "nuance" when it comes to the 5th precept and alcohol. Either you drink it or you don't. If you do, then that's breaking it. Pretty clear cut.

Malcolm wrote:
Not so. There are many opinions on this in classical texts, and not everyone is in agreement that the precept regards the substance. If the precept is only against the substance, then other intoxicants are not included. If the precept regards intoxicated, then unlike some other drugs, alcohol can be consumed without becoming intoxicated. Also, there is an medical exception, and in Vinaya we find the Buddha administering medicinal alcohol preparations for ill bhikṣus. Likewise, taking psychedelics as a therapy for addiction, PTSD, etc., would not be considered a violation of the vow against becoming intoxication. You see, the vow states that one should not indulge in "madana," which can refer to alcohol, but refers in fact to any intoxicating passion, and in this context, the vow was created in relationship to a bhikṣu who became drunk and broke his vows by having sex with a householder women.

Simplistic reductionism does not help anyone. Likewise with lying. I am quite sure you would readily lie to protect someone or some animal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 7th, 2023 at 1:00 AM
Title: Re: the fifth precept, alcohol
Content:
seeker242 said:
. A big lie and a small lie are both against the precept to not lie regardless of how big or small.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not factual.

seeker242 said:
Yes it is.

Malcolm wrote:
No, isn’t. Your claim, burden of proof is on you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, February 7th, 2023 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: the fifth precept, alcohol
Content:
seeker242 said:
. A big lie and a small lie are both against the precept to not lie regardless of how big or small.

Malcolm wrote:
This is not factual.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 6th, 2023 at 11:23 PM
Title: Re: the fifth precept, alcohol
Content:
Zhen Li said:
The Shin perspective would be not to take these precepts that we are not likely to be able to live up to. It is worse to distort the Dharma and say that the fifth precepts actually does allow intoxicants in small quantities, than it is to admit that we are simply not capable of living up to that standard. If you can uphold the precepts, then by all means do, but if you can't, it doesn't affect your ability to be born in the Pure Land. Just don't twist the words of the Buddha to be convenient—alcohol violates the fifth precept and the bodhisattva precepts prohibit eating meat or the five pungent herbs. If we can't abstain from these, then that's on us: the precepts themselves don't need to answer for themselves.

Malcolm wrote:
The fifth vow is like the second amendment, it has various interpretations. But we can understand it is not at the level of four root precepts, since consuming alcohol for bhikshus, like harming plants or killing animals, requires only confession, with no attached censure or punishments.

Also, it can be adopted or not, according Sarvastivada.

And while there are certainly opinions that “not a single drop” is to be taken, other opinions indicate it us intoxication that is forbidden, not alcohol itself.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 6th, 2023 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: What are you watching? Any good?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Last of Us:

https://www.hbo.com/the-last-of-us

DharmaJunior said:
Interesting recommendation.

Malcolm wrote:
The writing is the key point of this series.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 6th, 2023 at 1:20 AM
Title: Re: What are you watching? Any good?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The Last of Us:

https://www.hbo.com/the-last-of-us


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 6th, 2023 at 1:15 AM
Title: Re: Manjushri in China
Content:
Kai lord said:
So the cosmic tortoise of the basis, is linked to Dzogchen?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, quite directly, just like Tibetan Medicine of the Four Tantra tradition is connected with Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 6th, 2023 at 12:43 AM
Title: Re: Manjushri in China
Content:
Kai lord said:
I truly don't know I Ching is connected with Dzogchen. Although there have been cases of people using the working principles behind I Ching to understand the interdependence nature of various phenomenons and hence Sunyata.

Malcolm wrote:
It has nothing to with I Ching, actually. There four kinds of cosmic tortoise in elemental calculation:

There is a cosmic tortoise of the abode, where Mañjuśrī acts a demiurge; cosmic tortoise of the basis, which produces all buddhas and sentient beings; cosmic tortoise of formation; a golden cosmic tortoise of existence (divided in method and wisdom):

It is at this stage for the eight spar kha form:

Next, the manner in which the Grandfather Sky and Grandmother Earth form the brother and sister elemental sequence, the eight figures marking the body of that tortoise of existence. The mist of the vapor of its mouth along with light produced Grandfather Sky as the pure element appearing as the character ☰ (khen). 
The external soil of the tortoise that drips down produced Grandmother Earth as the impure element appearing as the character ☷ (khon). 
Grandfather Sky and Grandmother Earth lay down together in a valley and based on the pillar of earth and sky made by a mountain, the eldest son and first child, Gin (☶), mountain, arose. 
Through the condition of wind arising between the rocky mountains, the eldest daughter Zon ☴, wind arose. 
Disturbed and spread by the wind, fire blazes, producing the middle daughter, Li (☲). 
The wind and fire fight, and since rain falls, the youngest son, Kham (☵) arose as the unclean hunchback water. 
Since trees grow between those, the youngest daughter, Zin (☳), wood arose. 
Earth melted by fire produces metal, therefore. the middle son, the cutting Dwa (☱), metal arose.

The way in which both Kham and Zin form: After the eldest son, Gin, and the eldest daughter, Zon, reached adulthood, having given rise to desire because of karma, brother mountain Gin circled Meru three times, and the eldest sister Zon circled the ocean. They both were unable to catch the moon, and since it wandered, in that valley where the rough wind of karma arose, in that country of the poisonous female demons (srin mo) called "The Primeval Blue Sky", the brother and sister came together and met without recognizing [one another] and through their incestuous union, Kham and Zin were born from incest.

Through that, after the gods and nāgās of existence fought, the eight classes of mundane gods and demons came from the mating or union of the gods and nāgās. Further, different shapes of their bodies and heads formed. In the same way, from the mating of the gods and demons, the region of the asuras arose in the crevices of Meru. Below it, when [the gods] mated with the nāgās, there formed the deformed paralyzed [zha grum mnol] gods. 

Since the gods exhausted their karma, those sentient beings fell into the human lands. and humans arose in the four main continents and the minor continents. And since they exhausted their human karma, also the three lower realms formed. Since birth and death occurs because of the power of affliction, the the six classes of existence of migrating beings is renowned to arise in order, and because of them, the eight trigrams form from the tortoise of existence.

This is all explained in much detail.

Further,

Because the eight trigrams separate because of such conflicts, the so called eight trigrams surround the outside of the golden tortoise. Through the state of their place, each trigram has a disharmonious direction that is like a demon, and also a harmonious direction, thus the eight trigrams are placed on one of the directions of the tortoise. For example, like Khen being attached to the left hind leg of the tortoise and the Mother Khon being attached to the left fore leg, the position of the formation of the symbols of the eight trigrams, clearly demonstrate the positions that occur at the start of many signs of black calculation.

As for Fu Xi:

Further, the first of the ancient kings of China, Sba hu hshi dhī (Fu Xi) saw a golden colored tortoise rise by the side of the ocean, and after examining it, the symbols of the eight trigrams arose in his mind. The calculations of Fire Li trigram is based upon that. Based on that, the kings, ministers and scholars gradually based themselves on that. In particular Confucius, the emanation of Manjughoṣa, known in Tibet as Kong tse ‘phrul rgyal, the instigator the limitless texts of calculation and gto rites and so on, is held to have very many treatises that appeared later on.

There is too much detail to give here, but it all based on the White Sapphire commentary by Desri Sangye Gyatso.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, February 6th, 2023 at 12:11 AM
Title: Re: Manjushri in China
Content:
Varis said:
In the oldest extant Tibetan version it's actually a frog.


Malcolm wrote:
No, it is a rus sbal, a "bony frog," i.e., a tortoise.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 5th, 2023 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Manjushri in China
Content:
Kai lord said:
Fu Xi (who discovered the eight trigrams) was the first emperor of China? And he was described as a commoner?

Ok nevermind, I will just treat it as some weird Tibetan interpretations on Chinese myths and legends...

Malcolm wrote:
You have no idea how interesting the Tibetan chronicle of the origin of the elemental calculation is. Of course, it is connected with Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 5th, 2023 at 3:33 AM
Title: Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa
Content:
tinylocusta said:
phrases like "sixfold Rockstar Pedestal" for the "sixth Vajradhara" might be a bit too much for my small brain.

Malcolm wrote:
This kind of translation is not serious. It is important in Dzogchen that the words and the meanings are connected, which is not the case in this small example.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, February 5th, 2023 at 2:50 AM
Title: Re: Natural thogal?
Content:
Natan said:
Longchenpa has a lot to say about Tregcho and Thogal. One thing he doesn't say is Thogal is depending on Tregcho.

Malcolm wrote:
The tantras that are his sources certainly do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 4th, 2023 at 4:01 AM
Title: Re: Mipham
Content:



ThreeVows said:
Someone else on this thread pointed out a very short Kurukulla sadhana from Mipham. If one had a kurukulla empowerment is it permissible to practice that sadhana even without a formal lung?

Malcolm wrote:
Generally, you should have the lung.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 4th, 2023 at 12:28 AM
Title: Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break
Content:


Nosta said:
But if these children were in such a place in between, why they remember only the previous life as humans?

Malcolm wrote:
Simple: in a human body, you are going to mainly recall human experiences. To use an analogy, it is a well-known phenomena that things people do when they are intoxicated are often forgotten until they are intoxicated again.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, February 4th, 2023 at 12:24 AM
Title: Re: Mipham
Content:
naljor said:
Are the simple practices or sadhanas by Mipham Rinpoche in Anuyoga style?

Malcolm wrote:
Too many to count.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 3rd, 2023 at 11:45 PM
Title: Re: Has the Chöd practice become almost obsolete in modern times?
Content:
yagmort said:
chod liturgy

Malcolm wrote:
Is not real chod. It is actually a practice one engages in after one has throughly grasped the principles of the four māras. The Lujin is a practice related to conduct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, February 3rd, 2023 at 12:19 AM
Title: Re: the fifth precept, alcohol
Content:
mystic_poet said:
i decided to hold five precepts. my question is about the fifth precept.

i dont have alcohol when im alone, but when i meet my friends, for example they have alcohol or smoke some weed. what happens i join them and drink a half or one glass of beer? just to be a part of the community?

we dont steal, hurt anyone or have sex while having alcohol. we just talk a lot, laugh or sing silly songs.

before something like this, should i say: 'dear dharma, buddha and sangha, i will have one glass of beer, you know, we are good guys, we ll just have some fun?

im not a monk. just a nuts with anxiety.

thanks..

Malcolm wrote:
Just don’t get drunk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, February 2nd, 2023 at 3:09 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:


jet.urgyen said:
Do you think Bodhisattvas charge for their help hahahahhah

Malcolm wrote:
Certainly, if it causes people to value that help more.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 1st, 2023 at 10:17 PM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
Soma999 said:
Market thinking : give the less possible, and take the maximum you can
Intention : profit, pleasure, me, myself, my big car

Malcolm wrote:
Very often people think terms of minimum effort maximum merit. Indeed, the whole theory of two accumulations in Vajrayana is based on this very principle.

Indeed, an appeal to merit making is the central feature of Buddhist marketing.

So let’s not kid ourselves about the notion of debt and profit as operative concepts in karma and merit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 1st, 2023 at 8:08 PM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:


tobes said:
This is applying capitalist logic to something that thoroughly transcends such logic.


Malcolm wrote:
Sponsoring Dharma is still an exchange for value: people do these things for merit, to accumulate karmic capital. So it us actually right in line with market thinking. Indeed, karma is treated as debt by the Buddha, likewise merit is capital.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, February 1st, 2023 at 7:50 PM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
Aemilius said:
According to T. W. Rhys-Davids we have some knowledge about the economic and societal system in ancient India. In his book Buddhist India we find:

Buddha is quite clearly taking a political stance here, -we could say. Already this list of crafts has quite a lot of information in it.

Buddhist India http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Buddhist%20India_TWRDavids.pdf

Malcolm wrote:
This certainly tells us very little about the point I was making: "It’s equally clear that we have a very imperfect idea of how instrumental market forces/potlach expenditures actually were in spreading Buddhism, even during the lifetime of the Buddha."

And we actually do not have much insight into how the economic climate of ancient India. We know that Buddha encouraged prosperity among the laity and so on. We know that it was common for śrāvakas to be supported on alms. We know that there was currency of some form since bhikṣus were forbidden from individually handling gold and silver, etc., through in all vinayas there is a position for a Sangha treasurer, meaning that Sanghas held wealth, even from the earliest days. We generally assume that Buddhism was most popular among the merchant class, and seems to have spread mainly along trade routes into Bactria, Central Asia, etc., and later along sea routes to China etc. But these insight are very external. We do not have much in the way of actual reports from the period of 500 -- 400 BCE of the economic life of India. And most of what we know of the ancient Indian economy is post-Alexander.

Aemilius said:
We can safely make the conclusion that they were quite wealthy and prosperous, as Jatakas and sutras tell us. They had enough wealth and free time to start wondering about the "meaning of life", or other philosophical questions about the nature of existence. And wealthy enough to support a class of idlers that were called sramanas (and brahmanas).

from Mahā-Sudassana Sutta, The Great King Of Glory:
"Long ago, Ānanda, there was a king, by name Mahā-Sudassana, a king of kings, a righteous man who ruled in righteousness, an anointed Kshatriya, Lord of the four quarters of the earth, conqueror, the protector of his people, possessor of the seven royal treasures. This Kusinārā, Ānanda, was the royal city of king Mahā-Sudassana, under the name of Kusāvatī, and on the east and on the west it was twelve leagues in length, and on the north and on the south it was seven leagues in breadth. That royal city Kusāvatī, Ānanda, was mighty, and prosperous, and full of people, crowded with men, and provided with all things for food. Just, Ānanda, as the royal city of the gods, Ālakamandā by name, is mighty, prosperous, and full of people, crowded with the gods, and provided with all kinds of food, so. Ānanda, was the royal city Kusāvatī mighty and prosperous, full of people, crowded with men, and provided with all kinds of food.

Both by day and by night, Ānanda, the royal city Kusāvatī resounded with the ten cries; that is to say, the noise of elephants, and the noise of horses, and the noise of chariots; the sounds of the drum, of the tabor, and of the lute; the sound of singing, and the sounds of the cymbal and of the gong; and lastly, with the cry, ‘Eat, drink, and be merry!’"
...
“And whoever, Ānanda, in the royal city Kusāvatī were at that time gamblers, drunkards, and given to drink, they used to dance round together to the sound of those palms when shaken by the wind."

Malcolm wrote:
These are not contemporary reports, dating three hundred years APN. A lot can change in three hundred years.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 31st, 2023 at 10:57 PM
Title: Re: Has the Chöd practice become almost obsolete in modern times?
Content:
yagmort said:
the main thing about chöd

Malcolm wrote:
The main thing about chod is understanding the four māras and cutting through them. The liturgy, instrumentation, etc., that's all secondary.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 31st, 2023 at 9:46 PM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
Aemilius said:
According to T. W. Rhys-Davids we have some knowledge about the economic and societal system in ancient India. In his book Buddhist India we find:

Buddha is quite clearly taking a political stance here, -we could say. Already this list of crafts has quite a lot of information in it.

Buddhist India http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Buddhist%20India_TWRDavids.pdf

Malcolm wrote:
This certainly tells us very little about the point I was making: "It’s equally clear that we have a very imperfect idea of how instrumental market forces/potlach expenditures actually were in spreading Buddhism, even during the lifetime of the Buddha."

And we actually do not have much insight into how the economic climate of ancient India. We know that Buddha encouraged prosperity among the laity and so on. We know that it was common for śrāvakas to be supported on alms. We know that there was currency of some form since bhikṣus were forbidden from individually handling gold and silver, etc., through in all vinayas there is a position for a Sangha treasurer, meaning that Sanghas held wealth, even from the earliest days. We generally assume that Buddhism was most popular among the merchant class, and seems to have spread mainly along trade routes into Bactria, Central Asia, etc., and later along sea routes to China etc. But these insight are very external. We do not have much in the way of actual reports from the period of 500 -- 400 BCE of the economic life of India. And most of what we know of the ancient Indian economy is post-Alexander.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 31st, 2023 at 10:02 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:



tobes said:
They do, but utilized without sufficient understanding that very tool will cause a direct march to such places of woe.

Malcolm wrote:
It creates a positive cause, at the very least.

tobes said:
Do you really think this is the best way to go: Vajrayana without any foundations?

Malcolm wrote:
Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen pushes back against the idea that it is necessary for people to enter Vajrayana gradually. Why? Some people have foundation from past lives.

In Dzogchen in particular, the idea of making a distinction between sharp and dull is rejected out right.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 31st, 2023 at 9:57 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
tobes said:
I don't begrudge scholars, translators, teachers etc their livelihood. But as much as we can acknowledge necessary costs for Dharma activities, we can also acknowledge forms of excess, corruption, worldly motivations etc. In all honesty, how do you feel when you flip through an issue of Tricycle?

Malcolm wrote:
I don’t generally flip through Trike, etc. there is v nothing in those periodicals of interest to me, abnd hasn’t been for years.

I am also not at all concerned about other peoples corruption, malfeasance, grift, etc. I just pay attention to my own conduct. I am pretty confident in karma and it’s result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 31st, 2023 at 9:38 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
tobes said:
everyone will pay for glossy exotic empowerments, no one will pay for teachings on sufferings of the lower realms.

Norwegian said:
In Vajrayana, receiving the glossy exotic empowerments gives the practitioner every tool necessary to avoid the sufferings of the lower realms.

tobes said:
They do, but utilized without sufficient understanding that very tool will cause a direct march to such places of woe.

Malcolm wrote:
It creates a positive cause, at the very least.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 31st, 2023 at 9:24 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:



tobes said:
I think this is one of the core issues we need to think more carefully about; here we have a culture-tradition of intellectual property, in which words and ideas are indeed owned. This notion is so ingrained that it is basically naturalised. But can we establish such a thing from the perspective of Dharma (as opposed to liberalism)? I'm willing to hear someone try......

I think we can get very selective when it comes to what is a western import and what is not.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Copyright issues are already pretty clear and well established. There are some grey areas. But I don’t think there is anything new with regards to translated works, etc.
The words of the buddha can’t be owned, but translations of sutras  can be. The images on centuries old Tibetan thangkas or Buddhist cave walls can’t be copyrighted, but photos of them can be.

The original topic is about teachers who charge for teachings not being genuine. This is an unsubstantiated accusation. And anyway, these days with so much dharma information available free or inexpensively, good luck to the few that charge big bucks to support their little empires.

tobes said:
They are clear and well established. Here. In a liberal system, with liberal laws, based on liberal assumptions. I'm not convinced that the Buddha, Nagarjuna or Kongtrul were playing by those rules. The sense of ownership is very much connected to the OP, and I am suggesting that we're too quick to univeralise our own conditions (without even realising that is what we're doing), and be highly selective in what we consider a Tibetan or Indian cultural secretion and what we consider an indispensable part of tradition.

Malcolm wrote:
Scarcity was always a selling point of Vajrayana and still is.

It’s just a different approach to dealing with intellectual property, to put it in modern terms, it’s vertical marketing.

It’s equally clear that we have a very imperfect idea of how instrumental market forces/potlach expenditures actually were in spreading Buddhism, even during the lifetime of the Buddha. What I am suggesting is that we have really very little insight into the economic climate of Buddhism until quote a late period.

Kongtrul lived in a fully developed market economy, and expresses regret at one point that he was involved in doing religious activities for money in order to further his projects.

I have never, not even once in my life, complained about a fee for a teaching. I think it is incredibly lazy for people to complain about having to pay for Dharma, any Dharma, lazy as well as selfish.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 31st, 2023 at 1:06 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The idea that Dharma should be free comes from this western idea of not taxing churches.

PadmaVonSamba said:
Well I think if also comes from the idea that Buddhism teaches that should not be attached to wealth or material objects.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha also taught that lay people should make profits and accumulate wealth.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 31st, 2023 at 1:03 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Financial Assistance
Once accepted, if you have financial hardships that make these financial commitments challenging, you can apply for a scholarship to help cover the annual administrative fee. We do not want financial challenges to prevent anyone from participating.

So, they are basically treating their program as an academic course and being up front about what they want people to pay, because there are people who will pay that. And then they provide a means for those who can’t. They still want paid dues. So, as far as that goes, that’s a requirement.

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, which means just like at a college, you have to show need based in sharing details of your income and so on with a stranger.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 31st, 2023 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://learning.tergar.org/#precies-tables

There are many other examples. Usually you can find some language somewhere that indicates that some accommodation with the financially challenged can be made. These are large nonprofits that employ many people, so what one is supporting is in fact a corporation, rather than a person.

Aryjna said:
Ah yes, I have had a Tergar subscription before. There is a statement that those who need assistance can contact them, which is what I had in mind when I said there are options for those who can't pay.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no admonition anywhere in the sūtras that the Dharma must be free. Quite the opposite, actually. There are reams of pages extolling the virtues of generosity. Material gifts are the primary dana of householders. If people, ordained or not, skilled in translation, explaination, composition, and debate are not afforded the leisure to engage in these activities, well, the world will be poorer in the Dharma.

What bothers some people is that they might be required to explain why they should be given free access to resources for which others are happy to contribute, regarding this inquiry as a violation of their privacy. They somehow regard Dharma education as different from other kinds of education.

The idea that Dharma should be free comes from this western idea of not taxing churches.

For example, the fees associated with becoming a Shingon Dai Ajari are prohibitive, which is one reason why only old men are Dai Ajaris in Shingon. Likewise, the fees for higher ranks in Soto, etc.

Jodo Shinshu priests charge money for rituals, like 2000 yen. Of course, this is peanuts. But the point is, they charge.

Also it is well known in Tibetan Buddhism that ritual lamas charge for their services.

Tibetan monasteries did not support monks. They were supported by their families, who also made large donations to monasteries. Some poor monks, of course, had to work menial jobs. Others chanted sutras on street corners for change, etc.

My teacher, Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, openly discussed the fact that many times there were teachings he could not attend because he did not have money. He just regarded it as his own lack of merit.

In fact, bitching about $$$ and complaining about this or that fee is, for a Vajrayāna practitioner, a kind of jealousy and envy, and is quite negative.

To sum it up: If you can't afford it, don't go. If you can afford it...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 30th, 2023 at 11:58 PM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
Aryjna said:
I suppose so. Then now would be a good time for gelukman to tell us exactly what he is talking about, since no specific example of charging instead of asking for a donation has been presented in this thread, only general statements.

Malcolm wrote:
One can find many examples:

https://www.taramandala.org/programs-overview/long-term-study-pathways/osel-nyingtig/financial-commitment/

Payment of an annual administrative fee of $350 due June 2021 and after being formally accepted into the program. This amount will be charged to your account annually. This fee covers administrative costs, translation of relevant texts, text editing and preparation, webcast administration and group oversight.

If you are a member in another long term program through Tara Mandala (Magyu or Gateway), please know that you will be charged a combined fee of $500 for both programs starting at the time that you are accepted to the Ösel Nyingtig program (this reflects a $200 discount for being part of both lineages).

Tergar:

https://learning.tergar.org/#precies-tables

There are many other examples. Usually you can find some language somewhere that indicates that some accommodation with the financially challenged can be made. These are large nonprofits that employ many people, so what one is supporting is in fact a corporation, rather than a person.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 30th, 2023 at 11:28 AM
Title: Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)
Content:
Varis said:
Recently saw an interview with Dr. James Mallinson and he stated that he's (controversially) of the opinion that Hatha Yoga has origins in Daoist alchemy.
He points out that the same alchemical language, symbolism, and understanding of the body found in the amritasiddhi can be found 200-300 years prior in Daoist texts. He also mentions that Indian Rasayana utilizes substances indigenous to China and Chinese Weidan predates the Indian Rasayana tradition.

I'm curious to hear what others might think of this. Personally, I lean towards this theory myself. You can even find things such as Utkranti-like practices in the Shangqing scriptures and Daoist mythology (the story of Li Tieguai).

PeterC said:
This sounds highly implausible.  I haven't watched the video - it's an hour long - but he'd need to do a lot better than the symbolism and understanding of the body, as although these look superficially similar, the functions of the channels, winds etc. are so different as to make it clear that you're dealing with two very different theories.

Malcolm wrote:
I’ve met Jim. He is a really nice guy. But he does not understand Ayurveda, and he has fallen under the spell of a kind of western academic consensus that is actually divorced from reality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 29th, 2023 at 11:37 PM
Title: Re: Masonry- compatible with Buddhist practice?
Content:


Manjushriwiz said:
A lot of freemasons I know are obssesed with power and they are ver y abusive corrupted people I prefer to stay away

Malcolm wrote:
Masons were instrumental in the formation of liberal democracy in England, the Americas, and on the Continent.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 28th, 2023 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: How are you preparing for death?
Content:
clyde said:
... in the Zen tradition I have composed a Death Poem, actually Death Poems as I’ve rewritten them over the years (which is also traditional). ...

Kim O'Hara said:
Death Poems are important in one of the series by Pattison which starts with Skull Mantra - https://www.bookdepository.com/Skull-Mantra-Eliot-Pattison/9780312385392 - although I can't remember which one.

It's the only time I've come across the idea in Tibetan Buddhism so I don't know whether it's legitimately part of the tradition.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
There are such things as last testaments (zhal chems), which are usually uttered in verse, so, it is quite common.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 28th, 2023 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Meditation on Hrih
Content:
Thunder said:
I meditate quite regularly as a side practice. I started recently vedic mantra meditation, in a similar vein to transcendental meditation.

I have found it a lot more therapeutic than anapana, at least in dealing with stress.

For those unaware, mantra meditation involves the silent repetition in your mind of a seed syllable, like 'Ram' or 'Aham', which normally has some sort of religious significance, (although meaningless words like 'one' also work just as well, according to neuroscientist Howard Benson.)

I was practicing the other day and suddenly had a flash of inspiration to change the mantra to the syllable 'Hrih' - which is associated with Amitabha. Thus enabling the meditation to get a pure land 'flavour'.

Has anyone heard of a meditation like this before? I'm cautious about experimenting too much and going off piste.

Malcolm wrote:
There are sadhanas of Amitabha and Amitayus where the mantra is a single syllable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 28th, 2023 at 12:44 AM
Title: Re: Same empowerment on different "levels?"
Content:
drodul said:
I have received a deity empowerment from a terma cycle from two different lamas.  The same concise sadhana was provided at each empowerment, though a more extensive sadhana was offered at only one. I'm pretty sure one lama described the practice as being "from the lineage of kriya tantra."  The other said it was a highest yoga tantra practice, although it was the same deity, text, mantras, etc.  Can the same deity practice be given at different "levels," depending on what the lama thinks is appropriate for the students in front of him?

Malcolm wrote:
It has more to do with what empowerments you already have.

If you receive a kriya empowerment, but have already obtained an  empowerment of Hevajra, for example, you can practice that deity as an anuttarayoga tantra deity.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 26th, 2023 at 11:54 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


PeterC said:
Is there anything beyond speculation on which tsaklis inspired which major arcana?

Malcolm wrote:
I don't think they did.

All we really know is that playing cards were introduced by Mongols to Europe in roughly the late 13th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 26th, 2023 at 10:22 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
tobes said:
Something very controversial, and I don't expect much (or any really) agreement. But: if a teacher is not ordained, then why not contribute to their own livelihood via paid labour like everyone else? There are many precedents for this in the Vajrayana too.

I know I'll be slammed for this!

I get the refrain: because they need 100% of the time in retreat, practice etc. But the issue is that we end up setting up a Brahmin caste. Maybe some can be Brahmins, dispensing this or that for a fee. But some can be outcasts, and some can be workers.

The idea that all should be Brahmins seems inconsistent with the range of possibilities heralded by the Vajrayana tradition.


Malcolm wrote:
The idea that it’s actually anyone’s business…is misplaced.

tobes said:
It is your business, if and only if, you are (for example), contributing to a cocaine budget as was the case with one well known Vajrayana master.

Malcolm wrote:
People were spilling all over each other to keep that guy’s nose full of coke. None of that money came from the organization. They had good tax lawyers. Personal donations are personal donations, whether used for this or that. It’s not a question of approve or disapprove, it’s a question of people’s right to waste their money however they see fit, whether it winds up as gold leaf on a statue or cocaine in someone’s nose.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 26th, 2023 at 7:27 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
tobes said:
Something very controversial, and I don't expect much (or any really) agreement. But: if a teacher is not ordained, then why not contribute to their own livelihood via paid labour like everyone else? There are many precedents for this in the Vajrayana too.

I know I'll be slammed for this!

I get the refrain: because they need 100% of the time in retreat, practice etc. But the issue is that we end up setting up a Brahmin caste. Maybe some can be Brahmins, dispensing this or that for a fee. But some can be outcasts, and some can be workers.

The idea that all should be Brahmins seems inconsistent with the range of possibilities heralded by the Vajrayana tradition.


Malcolm wrote:
The idea that it’s actually anyone’s business…is misplaced.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 26th, 2023 at 5:25 AM
Title: Re: Ukraine News
Content:



PeterC said:
On the tanks though.  Is this something the Russian military supply chain really could copy?  China, sure, but its doubtful that they would then supply to Russia or use in a theater against NATO forces in the foreseeable future.  And if not the tanks, what would you have equipped the Ukrainians with instead?

Malcolm wrote:
Neither China nor the Russians have the manufacturing capabilities to make these things on their own.

As for Iranian drones they use scavenged American chips. They do not have the capability of manufacturing their own.

Russian weapons are also made from parts from markets which are now closed to them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 26th, 2023 at 2:53 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:


Zhen Li said:
The matter is complicated.

Malcolm wrote:
I chatted with my Khenpo about this.

Having studied at Sanskrit University, first in his class for nine years, he really thinks these pronunciations are just incorrect, no matter how they got there. His point is that many brahmins are not actually very educated in Sanskrit, and just recite what they heard from their fathers.

This is not like v<-->b shift, or the b<-->f shift between Sanskrit and Latin. It's not consistent with Panini, according to him.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 12:26 PM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
gelukman said:
The sutra and tantra man should be honest and say "I do it for the money".
I need to pay for my food, women, housing etc. There is no fault in that.
Then we know we are customers.

But a genuine guru who has realization. He dont have any need for any ones
offerings. Otherwise it would be upside-down.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s just plain bullshit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 12:00 PM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
If we want teachers, of any tradition, we have to make provision for their food, housing and (often) travel.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, that’s just reality.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 11:35 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:


jet.urgyen said:
in vajrayana the guru owns the teaching. in sutrayana the preceptor doesn't.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that’s not the principle.

The principle is that the guru is embodiment of the three jewels, so,offerings to the guru is of greater merit.

Kim O'Hara said:
Fine.
But that's gifts, not charges.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
It’s the same. Some masters, like Ra Lotsawa, literally had price lists.

Vajrayana is just different on this score.

Longchenpa nearly left his teacher because he couldn’t afford the fee. The teacher, Kumaraja, slipped him the fee on the sly.

Indeed, the empowerment fee is built in, and mentioned in the tantras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 11:25 AM
Title: Re: There is no business like religion business.
Content:


jet.urgyen said:
in vajrayana the guru owns the teaching. in sutrayana the preceptor doesn't.

Malcolm wrote:
No, that’s not the principle.

The principle is that the guru is embodiment of the three jewels, so,offerings to the guru is of greater merit.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 2:45 AM
Title: Re: Masonry- compatible with Buddhist practice?
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Since the Tarot is based on the Vajrayana of the Mahasiddhas; we don't really need to go on wild goose-chases about Rosicrucian histories, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Just the four suites: trumps (vajra), diamonds (jewel), hearts (lotus), and spades (swords, aka karma).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 25th, 2023 at 12:13 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
The origin of tarot cards is a gambling game brought by Mongols to Europe based on Vajrayāna initiation cards; the minor arcana represents four of the five buddha families; the major arcana was developed in Renaissance Italy, from the card game which was popular then.

PeterC said:
Do we know which figures the major arcana are based on? Or is there informed speculation?

Malcolm wrote:
The major arcana seem to just have been trump cards.

The fool survives in modern playing cards the joker, to which any value can assigned, while kings, queens, and jacks were simplified out of the 22 trump cards.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 24th, 2023 at 8:59 AM
Title: Re: Masonry- compatible with Buddhist practice?
Content:
mystic_poet said:
you did the right thing. templar knights created the freemason tradition, in the crusaders era..

dharma is enough.

Malcolm wrote:
Speculative Masonry was actually created by Elias Ashmole, 17th century British Antiquarian.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 24th, 2023 at 4:41 AM
Title: Re: Great Vegan Debate
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
You are, in fact, passive aggressively accusing the Goenka folks of something or another, it would be more honest to just be direct.

jimmi said:
The mention of Goenka was in my post and not Skeering’s. The taking of the 8 precepts was an important element of the first evening before the start of the ten day course. I was quite surprised to find butter and milk being part of the breakfast servings the following first morning. It struck me as inconsistent with the spirit and meaning of the precept taking ceremony the previous evening.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha ate what was offered to him. So should you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 24th, 2023 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: Masonry- compatible with Buddhist practice?
Content:
PeterC said:
Not compatible.  A fundamental tenet of masonry is belief in a supreme being. They leave it up to you which you believe in, but this isn't compatible with refuge in the three jewels.

Malcolm wrote:
Arguably, the original masons were deists, who professed Nature's God, which they called the G.A.U, the "grand architect of the universe," which, according most accounts, merely meant the laws of nature. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, and Ethan Allen were for intents and purposes atheists. The last, even wrote a long book defending his atheistic stance. Outright denials of the existence of supreme being could get you hung in those days, so deists couched their atheism in language of enlightenment science. Allen on the other hand, secure in his perch in Vt. went all out to condemn religion entirely:

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/37694/pg37694-images.html#link2H_4_0007

You will note that like other deists he give lip service to God, but if you read him carefully, he is an atheist:
Reason therefore must be the standard by which we determine the respective claims of revelation; for otherwise we may as well subscribe to the divinity of the one as of the other, or to the whole of them, or to none at all. So likewise on this thesis, if reason rejects the whole of those revelations, we ought to return to the religion of nature and reason.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 10:00 PM
Title: Re: the difference between Prajñāparāmita and Madhyamaka
Content:
akuppa said:
perhaps not unlike one of the formless jhānas

PeterC said:
That would be a very strange conclusion to reach

akuppa said:
My interpretation.  Perhaps I'm wrong

Malcolm wrote:
Quite unlike the formless dhyānas, which have objects, i.e. the concepts which form their substance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 9:51 PM
Title: Re: Meaning and translation "druktongpa" or "Drubthob"
Content:


PadmaVonSamba said:
‘DRUK’ means dragon. ‘Pa’ is a suffix used as a kind of identifier.  ‘thongpa’ is a kind of Indian dish of curried paneer.

Malcolm wrote:
drug stong means 1000 thunders or 1000 dragons, depends on context.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 9:05 PM
Title: Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
However, herbal rasāyana is much older than that, and depending on how old one imagines the Carakasamhita to be, certainly dates to before the common era.

Mercury rasāyana is only small branch of Ayurveda. And he is focuses only on the symbolic language in the Amritasiddhi which derives from the various processes used to prepare mercury sulfide.

Varis said:
Interesting, thank you Malcolm.

Do you know if the practices of drawing the essence of the elements, sun and moon, etc. in TB have antecedents in Indian Rasayana?
My knowledge of Ayurveda is woefully lacking but I know that similar techniques certainly exist within Daoist Neidan.

Malcolm wrote:
Other than mercury preparation, rasayana in Ayurveda is strictly herbal.

You would have to give some side by side examples. But there is rasayana in the tantras of various kinds.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 8:56 PM
Title: Re: Indian history of "Sudden Enlightenment" found in Chan/Zen
Content:
Kai lord said:
Always find it weird that Sri Singha

Malcolm wrote:
[/quote]

That account is quite late and not reflected in the sems sde and klong sde histories.

SilverFantasy said:
For those familiar with Dzogchen or Nyingma, is there any possibility that the Guhyagarbha tantra points to a sudden enlighten Indian school? Here's my thinking:

Malcolm wrote:
There is a mention of Shri Singha by Manjushrikirti, an 11th century scholar, who identifies the former as belonging to a group who emphasized the completion stage and dispensed with the creation stage as unnecessary. So,I find all the reams of pages written about the supposed origins of Dzogchen to be a bit dated and unnecessary in light of this information. The thirteenth chapter of the Guhyagarbha is quite clear about the meaning of Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 10:08 AM
Title: Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana
Content:
Passing By said:
it seems trekcho is just as easy to misunderstand since it's also experiential

Malcolm wrote:
Trekcho is more difficult to explain, in fact.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 5:06 AM
Title: Re: Possible Daoist origins of Hatha Yoga (and the Amritasiddhi)
Content:
Varis said:
Indian Rasayana

Malcolm wrote:
What he is referring to is use of mercury preparations. Mercury is not found on the Indian subcontinent, and it seems probably, based on Needham's History of Science in China, that the Indians learned mercury preparation from Chinese sources.

However, herbal rasāyana is much older than that, and depending on how old one imagines the Carakasamhita to be, certainly dates to before the common era.

Mercury rasāyana is only small branch of Ayurveda. And he is focuses only on the symbolic language in the Amritasiddhi which derives from the various processes used to prepare mercury sulfide.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 23rd, 2023 at 1:35 AM
Title: Re: In Madhyamaka is everything empty, without exception? Or is there something that exists?
Content:



Matt J said:
The shentong point of view in my mind is more of a description

Malcolm wrote:
It is the description itself that is the problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 22nd, 2023 at 11:21 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:
nyamlae said:
Therefore, we must distinguish how a sound is pronounced in different contexts, instead of assuming that a sound change will apply unconditionally.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is a burden of evidence you have not shown,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 22nd, 2023 at 7:40 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:


nyamlae said:
I learn new things all the time, but I've never seen or heard "ra" used to mark a reason. Do you have an example of this?

Malcolm wrote:
The next time I run across this I will point it out. But that is not what I meant, In the sentence you provide “as kha is equivalent to Sa, it is pronounced kha.”

That’s bad reasoning.

nyamlae said:
That's not what the text I quoted says. It says, གཞུང་ལས་ཥ་ནི་ཁ་དང་ཆ་མཐུན་པར་ཞེས་གསལ་བས་ཥ་འདིའི་སྒྲ་ཁ་ཞེས་བཀླག་དགོས། "because it is clarified in a classic text that Sa [is read] as equivalent with kha..." In this sentence there is an explicit reason, namely གཞུང་ལས་་་་་་ཞེས་གསལ་བས་ "because it is clarified in a classic text", so the reasoning given for pronouncing Sa as kha is that this is what is taught in a classic text.

Malcolm wrote:
But he does not identify the text?


Kha may retroflex in the series of ka kha ga gha nga, as is Sa, but that does not result in kha and Sa having equivalent pronunciations.
Kha is not retroflex in any context.
It's position in the series is the same as ṣa. śa ṣa sa, ka kha ga, etc.

It may be the case that in some communities in India there is retroflex drift from Sa to kha, but it wouldnt stand at Varanasi, and certainly when I learned how to chant Vedic chants with Ramasvami, Sa was Sa and not kha.
Okay, great, so you acknowledge this now.
I acknowledge evidence it presented.
That's not what it says; it says that [puruSa] is pronounced [purukha],
Final vowels are often left unvoiced, for example, my Khenpo leaves the short a at the end of Sanskrit words unvoiced, as he was taught (and yes I am aware this not universal in India).
That is just the Madhyandina style, too, because there is other evidence presented in the initial proposal I linked (e.g. likhyate written as liSyate) that show these letters were sometimes treated as equivalent before consonants too.
And what evidence do you suppose, apart from your 14th century manual, there is to show that there was a strong enough influence of this  Madhyandina style or something similar on Tibetans—that is, North Indian tantrikas in the period from 800-1400 instructing Tibetans to pronounce ṣa as kha—to cause Tibetans to universally adopt this pronunciation against ṣa as ṣa, when there are so many other instances of Tibetanizations of mantra, like Pema for Padma (because for Tibetans, a consonant after "a" turns it in á, as in padma, but also 'das pa etc)? What about turning aṣṭa into akha, obliterating both ṣa and ṭa? If it were as you say, it ought to be more systematic. But it isn't really.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 22nd, 2023 at 5:33 AM
Title: Re: If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?
Content:
Ophidian Rainbow said:
If there is no self, then who or what is being reborn?



Malcolm wrote:
Put in the simplest terms, no entity transfers from this life to the next, but there is a serial continuity between this life and the next.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 9:16 PM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
I just came across this old meme (I found it on FB at least 4 years ago) and wondered where on the timeline we think we might be now...


timeline-s.jpg



Kim

Malcolm wrote:
Screen Shot 2023-01-21 at 8.16.04 AM.png (88.8 KiB) Viewed 86 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:


nyamlae said:
I learn new things all the time, but I've never seen or heard "ra" used to mark a reason. Do you have an example of this?

Malcolm wrote:
The next time I run across this I will point it out. But that is not what I meant, In the sentence you provide “as kha is equivalent to Sa, it is pronounced kha.”

That’s bad reasoning.

Whereas, Sapan clearly points out za, Sa, and sa all should be pronounced within the range of sa.

Kha may retroflex in the series of ka kha ga gha nga, as is Sa, but that does not result in kha and Sa having equivalent pronunciations.


It may be the case that in some communities in India there is retroflex drift from Sa to kha, but it wouldnt stand at Varanasi, and certainly when I learned how to chant Vedic chants with Ramasvami, Sa was Sa and not kha.

[
nyamlae said:
Plus, Zhen Li has already commented on how this is also done in Newar recitation.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan influence. My roommate for many years (since passed) was Newari. He chanted the Namasamgiti in perfect Sanskrit daily. I listened to him every morning. Granted he also was at Varanasi at the same time as Khenpo Migmar, but he had been doing this since he was a small boy, and his father was a famous Newar Lana who trained in Tibet.

nyamlae said:
So, it is established beyond any doubt that this pronunciation of ṣa as "kha" is a known phenomenon in North India, not some oddity restricted to Tibetan.

Malcolm wrote:
Not buying it.

Your response article points out that this Yajur Veda voicing is a voiceless pronunciation, I.e “purukh,” not “purukha.” So for example, following the article itself, no one would pronounce bhaISajya as Bhekhenze as Tibetans regularly do, since in these instances Sa followed by the vowel, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 10:05 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:


nyamlae said:
This is a good reason to be skeptical of his guide, but it does not actually prove that his guide is mistaken, nor (if so) in what way. More information about these guides and about the education of their authors (including Narthang Lotsawa) would help us better understand which pronunciations are well-grounded in Sanskrit tradition, and which pronunciations are of Tibetan origin. This is one of my main goals and interests in translating this literature.

Malcolm wrote:
We already know Sapan had thirty Sanskrit tutors, and some modern Marathi pronunciation of purusha as purukha is hardly convincing on any level.

I do want to add however that your investigation is interesting, if quixotic,


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 9:52 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
་ཥ་ནི་ཁ་དང་ཆ་མཐུན་པར

nyamlae said:
This is presented as an adverb (པར་), not as a reason (པས་).

Malcolm wrote:
Nick, you pay too much attention to western grammar standards.

The la don ra frequently stands as a “reason.”

In any case, there is no chance kha is a valid pronunciation of Sa.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 6:10 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Adamantine said:
So if you see no issue with teaching Dzogchen without rebirth,

Malcolm wrote:
You really do need to read more carefully. I never said we could teach Dzogchen sans rebirth. I said that not believing in rebirth was not a barrier to studying and practicing Dzogchen. I am pretty sure that if someone _really_ practices Dzogchen, they will begin to have the five eyes and so on, whether they started out believing in rebirth or not.

Adamantine said:
why did you share this here in this thread?

Malcolm wrote:
I was just confirming what someone else said.


Adamantine said:
Certainly on an Internet forum we have to, or there wouldn’t be too many posts…

Malcolm wrote:
The latter would be preferable, in many respects.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 5:31 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Generally, there is disagreement about whether it's important to properly pronounce Sanskrit mantras in Tibetan Buddhism. There's a lot of interesting debate to be had here, and yes it is always good to follow your teacher, but you also deserve a simple answer to your question. So, whether you're on team vajra or team benza, here are the proper way to pronounce the Sanskrit

nyamlae said:
You provide the Western-style pronunciation, which is fine, but it's specifically in the "team vajra" camp.

Unfortunately for the OP, there's no neutral "proper" way to pronounce Sanskrit, so you really do just have to pick a camp.

Tibetans aren't really mispronouncing Sanskrit; they are following pronunciation standards that are hundreds of years old, laid out in the many Mantrasya Pathopaya (སྔགས་ཀྱི་བཀླག་ཐབས་) texts that are part of the tradition. Everything from the pronunciation of སྭཱ་ཧཱ་ as "soha" to the pronunciation of ཥ་ as "kha" are intentional, educated decisions. For example, see page 31 of https://www.serajeyrigzodchenmo.org/images/book/pdf_folder/rig_ney/da_rigpa/sanskrit_sog/sanskrit/%E0%BD%A6%E0%BE%94%E0%BD%82%E0%BD%A6%E0%BC%8B%E0%BD%80%E0%BE%B1%E0%BD%B2%E0%BC%8B%E0%BD%96%E0%BD%80%E0%BE%B3%E0%BD%82%E0%BC%8B%E0%BD%90%E0%BD%96%E0%BD%A6%E0%BC%8B%E0%BD%A2%E0%BE%A9%E0%BC%8B%E0%BD%A0%E0%BD%82%E0%BE%B2%E0%BD%BA%E0%BD%A3%E0%BC%8D.pdf (སཏྭ་ལྟ་བུ་ལས་སཏོཝ྄་ལྟ་བུར་བཀླག་གོ། "for example, from satva you should read satow.") or page 22 of https://archive.org/details/bdrc-W1AC257/page/22/mode/2up?view=theater (གཞུང་ལས་ཥ་ནི་ཁ་དང་ཆ་མཐུན་པར་ཞེས་གསལ་བས་ཥ་འདིའི་སྒྲ་ཁ་ཞེས་བཀླག་དགོས། "As is clarified in the classics, ཥ་ has the same aspect as kha, and so the sound of this ཥ་ should be read as kha.")

dzoki said:
This work by Gendun Pal is actually quite late, he lived in 14th to 15th century, when the contact of Tibetans with India was quite limited already, so no wonder, that some mistaken pronunciations are presented as correct.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, but our friend here knows better than everyone so...


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 5:13 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


↑ said:
Just as I never asserted that we should parse out the teaching of rebirth in Dzogchen. I just said, repeating the words of ChNN, we don't need to believe anything in Dzogchen. Beliefs come and go, change, get dropped, etc. What we need in the Dharma is knowledge, personal and direct knowledge, not beliefs, including belief in rebirth. If we come to that conclusion based on our own experience, great. But if not, that's ok too.

Adamantine said:
So then following through with this view, it shouldn’t be at all surprising, or controversial then, if Yeshi  “definitely rejects rebirth, and…. went so far as to offer a course of “Dzogchen without rebirth” at one point.”

Malcolm wrote:
Either I was unclear or you should read more carefully——that was Igor.

Adamantine said:
So why bring it up?

Malcolm wrote:
You did when you quoted me.

Adamantine said:
Also it still is difficult to reconcile the ease with which you promulgate this perspective right after writing:

"Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen...


Malcolm wrote:
Not at all.  There is a difference between explaining what is taught in the text and guiding people who are interested in the teachings. For the former, one explains what they say. For the latter, one does not force beliefs on people.

Now in particular, since Dzogchen really cannot be confirmed through words, one does not have to believe anything. All the words of the mundane vehicles and the nine yanas are just abstract intellectual analysis, just so many words.

Since [dharmatā] is beyond the intellect, analysis, and words, 
it is seen with the sense organs, but not with wisdom (prajñā).

Nevertheless:

In the natural Great Perfection,
though the mind that has a referential view is exhausted,
sometimes [the view] is confirmed with words.

--Sound Tantra

As they say seeing is "believing."


Adamantine said:
I mean, you’ve gone to great lengths to try and explain how asserting both perspectives is compatible for you, or that they are really the same perspective, but admittedly I’m having a hard time following your logic on this one.

Malcolm wrote:
Perhaps you are being overly intellectual.


Adamantine said:
How could we have direct knowledge of death, the bardo, or rebirth until we actually die? Unless of course we have memories of a prior life or death, -but even the validity of those memories  could be questioned as fantasy or delusion… So if we are to seriously apply ourselves to teachings and a path which has so much emphasis on birth, death, bardo and rebirth, then we should have some degree of confidence in these things, based on inference, not direct experience,  imho.

Malcolm wrote:
As I mentioned, the Kalamas Sūtra presents a Buddhist Pascal's wager.

But in Dzogchen, intellectual beliefs don't cut it, even if sometimes we have to explain things in words.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 4:57 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Archie2009 said:
It is very naive to think people in the arts and humanities are warmer, kinder, and smarter in a compassionate way. I don't want to appear strident, but it's like the thought of a twenty something.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe, but at least they can talk about things other than weed, video games, and Elon Musk.

Dechen Norbu said:
You really think people who choose science only talk about that? You need to get out more, Malcolm!

Malcolm wrote:
Among people with higher educations in the US, those with STEM educations are the least educated and most poorly informed people I know. They rarely know anything about history, philosophy, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 4:37 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Norwegian said:
Personally I think that today it would be nice if more people entered the arts, humanities, pedagogy, and so on, and focused on receiving an education which makes them warmer, kinder, and smarter in a compassionate way, rather than this exaggerated focus on STEM all the time, which leads too many people into becoming cold and sterile and unable to think outside the box.

Archie2009 said:
It is very naive to think people in the arts and humanities are warmer, kinder, and smarter in a compassionate way. I don't want to appear strident, but it's like the thought of a twenty something.

Malcolm wrote:
Maybe, but at least they can talk about things other than weed, video games, and Elon Musk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Adamantine said:
The four noble truths were taught together in one sermon.
It’s kinda missing the point to parse them out as if they weren’t presented together, and meant to be understood together, imho.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha was presenting them because they were what he understood. He was not insisting that the five ascetics that he taught were required to agree.

Adamantine said:
That was just a set up for the second, third and fourth. He didn’t feel the need to shelter the students from the idea of rebirth, give them time to work with just the first for weeks, months or years before daring to propose the second.

Malcolm wrote:
Whoever implied we should shelter students from the idea of rebirth? You completely have not understood my point at all.

Adamantine said:
According to you, we should never teach Dzogchen teachings to anyone apart from card-carrying Buddhists.
This is a straw man, as I never asserted this…

Malcolm wrote:
Just as I never asserted that we should parse out the teaching of rebirth in Dzogchen. I just said, repeating the words of ChNN, we don't need to believe anything in Dzogchen. Beliefs come and go, change, get dropped, etc. What we need in the Dharma is knowledge, personal and direct knowledge, not beliefs, including belief in rebirth. If we come to that conclusion based on our own experience, great. But if not, that's ok too.

What tiny locust was trying to get at, is if we have real knowledge of the basis, then these questions don't matter. My reply to him was, "great, but this ignores the existential questions Dzogchen seeks to solve," which is why we have the idea of suffering, etc. to begin with.

You brought up some old posts because somehow you thought I needed to be reminded of how people can change ( ). I then pointed out one statement, emblematic of the whole, which is that people don't need to believe anything in Dzogchen. Dzogchen is beyond religion and philosophy, as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu famously stated. Most people still do not understand what that means. If Dzogchen is beyond religion and philosophy, then of what use are beliefs for a Dzogchen practitioner?, including the belief that consciousness perishes at death or continues at death? It's not that I don't personally accept rebirth, etc. I do. You know that. But just because I believe these things does not mean they are of value or even true. But one thing I do know is the meaning of Dzogchen teachings through my own experience. I don't need to believe it.


Adamantine said:
“ As far as Ray goes, I criticized him for saying that rebirth was not a necessary part of the Dharma taught by the Buddha. He was wrong to say that. So, not I am not sorry for making that observation. If someone claims that we can eject rebirth as so much Asian baggage, that person is not teaching the Dharma of the Buddha correctly. "

Malcolm wrote:
Correct, it is a necessary part of the Dharma. It is just not necessary to force beliefs on people.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 2:51 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Adamantine said:
Yet we also know that we can find thousands of passages from Buddha referring to karma and rebirth from the 4 noble truths onwards, to every one like this. And that’s because it’s quintessentially integral to the enterprise of the Buddhist path.

Malcolm wrote:
You are missing the point and creating a tempest in a teapot.

The Buddha never said to anyone, "If you don't accept rebirth, I won't teach you."

Buddha educated people about what he observed to be the principle existential issue facing human beings, suffering. He did not say first, "rebirth is suffering," he said first "Birth is suffering:"

"The Noble Truth of Suffering (dukkha), monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering — in brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.piya.html

He identified the cause as rebirth only in the second truth of nobles:
"The Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering is this: It is this craving (thirst) which produces re-becoming (rebirth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding fresh delight now here, and now there, namely craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation).
So you are putting the cart before the horse.

He also recommended that people not accept anything he taught without consideration or examination.

Adamantine said:
It’s not clear why you present this after the prior sutra quote..though since you seem to be fitting them together I’ll reply accordingly. If birth was the only cause of suffering, and not rebirth, then the project of relieving oneself from the extremes of suffering in your version of a rebirth-free ‘samsara’, would be as simple as suicide.

Malcolm wrote:
Suicide isn't simple. And that's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that we cannot expect people to operate from first principles, for example, rebirth, they don't even accept.

According to you, we should never teach Dzogchen teachings to anyone apart from card-carrying Buddhists. I don't agree with this point of view. I never said rebirth was not a part of Dzogchen teachings, because of course it is, I just said it was not necessary for people to believe it as a prerequisite for entering Dzogchen teachings, and frankly, neither did ChNN.

Adamantine said:
“ "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.003.than.html

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha never expected anyone to take these assertions on faith, but only after reasoned consideration and investigation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 21st, 2023 at 12:32 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no evidence that Sera Jetsun studied Sanskrit with a native Sanskrit speaker.

nyamlae said:
Who is Sera Jetsun?

Malcolm wrote:
My error, I see that this is by dge 'dun dpal, 14th century.
His reasoning is also unsound.
What reasoning, and how? [/quote]

་ཥ་ནི་ཁ་དང་ཆ་མཐུན་པར


There is also no evidence that pronouncing a labial as a guttural is valid in any Sanskrit context.
What labial?
ṣa.་ཥ

Sure, but this is not what I mean. I'm not saying that every single Tibetan is an expert in Sanskrit, I'm saying that Tibetans in general are making intentional and textually-based decisions for Sanskrit pronunciation; and furthermore, I see no reason to think that all these deviations from whatever norm are reducible to Tibetans just being bad at pronouncing Sanskrit.
You mean like "shing kun" for Hingu?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 11:52 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Adamantine said:
Regarding this one statement of yours in particular, I have to admit I’m now even more confused. I certainly did notice you wrote “without the existential issue of birth in samsara”, I didn’t include that in the quote merely to be succinct. Actually, that was precisely what caused me to read it as referring to rebirth, since the term samsara refers of course to the harrowing continuity of cyclic existence..in which rebirth is naturally implicated.. there is no samsara without rebirth. To cite Rigpa wiki “Samsara (Skt. saṃsāra; Tib. འཁོར་བ་, khorwa, Wyl. ‘khor ba) is the cycle of conditioned existence, birth and death, which is characterized by suffering and in which one is continually reborn until attaining nirvana. ”
But of course you know this quite well, …so?

Malcolm wrote:
Birth has the consequence of suffering, whether one accepts rebirth or not. Everyone who is born ages , grows ill, and dies.

Saṃsāra basically means to wander around. In the context of Indian Buddhist texts, it means punarbhāva, rebecoming. But the Buddha never asked people to accept rebirth uncritically, rather than Buddha's discourse into free inquiry, we can call the Kalama Sutta the Buddha's version of Pascal's wager:

"The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found."

"So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found.

"'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him.

"'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him.

"'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him.

"The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are found.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html

At the level of what we ourselves actually experience in our lives it is clear where transmigration begins; it begins in any instant in which we enter into dualism just as it ends when we rediscover the primordial state...

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. The Crystal and the Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen (pp. 90-91). Kindle Edition.

Some people think Dzogchen is about realizing some awakened state. It isn't. It's about cessation. Dzogchen is the third truth of nobles Recognizing the basis is the method we use in Dzogchen, but it isn't the end goal.

"Bliss" in Dzogchen is a negative definition, like the rest of Buddhadharma. It means we are no longer subject to suffering at all. When we have realized this state, then we can be of much benefit to others. Until that time, our ability benefit others is quite curtailed by our own limitations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 11:00 PM
Title: Re: Few more questions please !
Content:
Mystic Sam said:
Is there a factor why such realized person dont develop perfect siddhis ?

Malcolm wrote:
There is only one siddhi that actually matters: awakening.

Mystic Sam said:
Thank you Acharya.
I totally agree with that.
My current system ends with something like deity yoga and developing all siddhis. Yet I am not very motivated in this current system because I seek libration for myself and helping all sentient beings to librate, I reminds myself of this goal every night. That is why reading about Dzogchen and Boddhisattva the first time about year ago deeply affected me. It made a lot of sense when I was very confused.
Having said that, it really worries me and saddened me that after hearing the experience of many people practicing Dzogchen, I can not find evidence of realization or perfection among these practitioners. I tell myself they must be hiding their realization or achievements.

Malcolm wrote:
Among mundane siddhis, the most important one is being kind to everyone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 9:39 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
tinylocusta said:
, "he's doing it only to keep the institution"

Malcolm wrote:
In a democracy, leaders should to be questioned. They are answerable to their constituents. Dzogchen Community was set up ChNN as a decentralized, direct democracy, not a fiefdom. Transparency and freedom of speech are essential to the functioning of a healthy democracy.  Leaders of a democratic organization are public people. They don’t have the same rights to privacy that private citizens enjoy.

So, Is YN a part of Dzogchen community or not? Is he a leader in Dzogchen community or not? Is he the honorary president? People have a right to know these things and not be continually kept in the dark, with information only trickling out from fraught and disturbing meetings which no one is “allowed” to record, discuss, etc., and occasional communiques from the Merigar Gakyil. The situation may be reaching some measure of resolution, after four years,  but frankly, it’s all still pretty opaque to everyone and this has been going on for far too long.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 8:50 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:


nyamlae said:
And so he is a very valuable source of data, but he is not the only source of data.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no evidence that Sera Jetsun studied Sanskrit with a native Sanskrit speaker. His reasoning is also unsound.

There is also no evidence that pronouncing a labial as a guttural is valid in any Sanskrit context. It is a laughable, unsupportable contention.

My teacher studied Sanskrit for many years at Sanskrit University.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 7:17 AM
Title: Re: Few more questions please !
Content:
Mystic Sam said:
Is there a factor why such realized person dont develop perfect siddhis ?

Malcolm wrote:
There is only one siddhi that actually matters: awakening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 6:36 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:
Zhen Li said:
And while sh (श) is closer to s (स), ṣ is often pronounced as kh (ष = ख)—this is a convention that is found even in some Vedic Sanskrit (e.g. ṛṣi being pronounced like "rikhi").


Malcolm wrote:
Newar belongs to the Sino-Tibetan language family, so it is not surprising that they have same the pronunciation issues with ṣa and kṣa as Tibetans do.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana
Content:


fckw said:
Well - never having had the opportunity to even hear about them also blocks one's realization. That was the state of things for the last 1000 years or so for 99.999% of humanity.

Malcolm wrote:
And it still will be for the next 1000 years because there are never very many qualified teachers of Dzogchen around.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 6:02 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
If they are interested in Dzogchen teachings, this means they have karmic traces for it and not otherwise. This means they will have enough interest to seek out a proper teacher and put those teachings into practice. And in time, and based on their own direct experience through practicing the Dharma, rather than beliefs, they will understand many things they did not understand before, as it should be.

Adamantine said:
Ok, so up until that time—which could be many years—then for them:
“Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”?

Then how does one lead to the other?

I’m not quite sure how you don’t see any contradiction here.


Malcolm wrote:
You will note that I said, "without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all." I said only "birth," and quite deliberately so. Why? Because birth results in the suffering of aging, illness, and death, which no one can deny. So, no contradiction, but nice try. Are you tiring of this game yet?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 5:40 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Adamantine said:
that Malcom remarked that this was just a political / institutional ploy for them to keep their legal status...

Malcolm wrote:
It's also a fact that this was an issue for Merigar. Now it is not.

People in the area were surprised by this announcement. It was quite unexpected.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Adamantine said:
This certainly reads as discouraging.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but facts are facts. They might be uncomfortable for you, but they are what they are.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 5:32 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Adamantine said:
At a surface glance,

Malcolm wrote:
Well, you probably should not take a superficial glance at anything I say.

Adamantine said:
“Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen, like all teachings of the Buddha, it’s the main point”

And “without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.”

Contrasts with  “if you can put yourself at the feet of qualified master who teaches Dzogchen from their own experience then there is no limit of benefit and you will receive transmission whether you are a Buddhist, an Catholic or an Alien.”

And “One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen”

Clearly, a Catholic who believes in everlasting heaven or hell, can not reconcile rebirth with their beliefs.

Nor can a materialist, nihilist, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
If they are interested in Dzogchen teachings, this means they have karmic traces for it and not otherwise. This means they will have enough interest to seek out a proper teacher and put those teachings into practice. And in time, and based on their own direct experience through practicing the Dharma, rather than beliefs, they will understand many things they did not understand before, as it should be. In Buddhadharma, in general, we do not coerce people in believing anything, but on the other hand, we certainly point out the issues the Buddha's Dharma was meant to resolve.

In any case, the original author of the statement, "One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen," is Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Beliefs will never lead to buddhahood, including believing in any kind of Buddhism. But one can confirm the truth of the teachings that exist in Buddhadharma, but that depends on personal experience and direct perception, even inference is not enough:

Just as gold is burnt, cut, and filed, 
bhikṣus, the wise should 
thoroughly investigate my teachings, 
and not accept them due to devotion.

I just don't agree we have to force people to become card-carrying Buddhists if they are interested in Dzogchen teachings. That is religion, not Dharma. Dzogchen is beyond the worldly vehicles and the nine yānas. But that does not mean it does not confirm the essential truth of the Buddha's Dharma.

Adamantine said:
I hope recognizing that, it could inspire giving leeway for others to do the same, such as Yeshi in this case..

Malcolm wrote:
You've completely misjudged my post to tiny locust and its intent. It had nothing to do with YN.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 3:20 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:


Soma999 said:
There are many variations on prononciation of mantras chanting depending on the regions.

Malcolm wrote:
In the text I provided, Sapan notes regional variations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
tinylocusta said:
However, as a Dzogchen practitioner, you need to make a crucial discovery.

Malcolm wrote:
This does not mitigate anything. Dzogchen practitioners also experience death, etc. Discovering instant presence is just the first step. It's not enough.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 2:13 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Adamantine said:
If you need the following conditional exception to amend your prior one-liner, then the prior one liner "One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen" was both inaccurate and misleading.

Malcolm wrote:
It is perfectly accurate and not misleading.

Adamantine said:
To avoid that, it would have to read something like "One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen, except for the belief in reincarnation, which is absolutely indispensable." .. or something similar.

Malcolm wrote:
No. For example, we do not need to believe we are suffering. When we are suffering, there is nothing to believe. It is a fact. When we discover we are suffering, we are already entering into the existential quandary the Buddha pointed out, "We are suffering, but why are we suffering?" This requires some investigation, some diagnosis so we can get at the cause. But we do not have to have any beliefs at all to enter Dzogchen teachings. Along the way, it will become evident to us that we need to understand the cause of the three poisons, and so on. Along the way we will discover that the eight-fold path has right view, and right view entails not rejecting karma and dependent origination and so on. But one is not required to have any beliefs at all. All one has to understand, in order to enter Dzogchen teachings, is that one is suffering.

Adamantine said:
Well, let’s at least give Yeshi a chance to recontextualize, or explain or retract his earlier statements. Who knows, he may surprise us.

Malcolm wrote:
Frankly, I am not that interested in what YN believes or does not believe. It does not concern me. I have no interest in conditioning him or anyone else.

What concerned me was a statement by tinylocust here:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/posting.php?mode=quote&p=653459

I don't think you need to have any beliefs to be a Dzogchen practitioner. But if one is sincere about Dzogchen, one has to recognize that the solution posed to ones suffering involves the idea of the cause of suffering, karma and affliction. That one has to investigate for oneself. Being unsure of rebirth, which is something ordinary people simply take on faith, is normal. It is not disqualifying.

If however, someone claims that the teaching of rebirth is unnecessary, this is obviously false and attempts to remove rebirth, karma, and dependent origination, etc., as being key parts of the solution to suffering offered by Dzogchen teachings is incorrect. I have always maintained this, I maintained it then, maintain it now, and will always maintain it. I will also always maintain that one does not have to believe anything to practice Dzogchen teachings, because Dzogchen teaching is not based on intellectual analysis, reasoning, or words. If you find it dissonant that I have these two perspectives that are seemingly in opposition, I am sorry. But nothing has changed. You are only looking at one thing I wrote in 2012, not everything. You will never find one word where I negate rebirth, karma, dependent origination.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 1:22 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Adamantine said:
"One does not need beliefs for Dzogchen. Just personal experience. "

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. I stand by all these statements. "Beliefs" belong to lower vehicles.

However, Dzogchen sets out to resolve the existential predicament the Buddha pointed out, but without intellectual beliefs. If someone shows up at my teaching, I don't tell them they have to believe anything, or change what they do believe. My job is to teach them what they need to understand about their own nature, not condition them into adopting a new set of beliefs. Eventually, we can even drop the idea of karma if and when we can really be in our own nature.

However, there is no point in practicing Dzogchen if one does not take the four truths of nobles as a basis. If someone does not have the idea that there is rebirth caused by the three afflictions, there is no point in practicing Dzogchen, other than to have a more relaxed attitude in this life. Certainly all the teachings of rushan, etc., won't make any sense to someone like this. And as for relaxation, you can get that with the Calm app.

In the end, Dzogchen is about ending afflicted existence in samsara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Adamantine said:
I recall the phase when you were promoting Dzogchen...entirely outside of Buddhism, or any religious container, in a quite absolute way.

Malcolm wrote:
The state of Dzogchen is absolutely outside of Buddhism or any religious container. Dzogchen tantras say so quite explicitly, such as the Sound Tantra:

Since [dharmatā] is beyond the intellect, analysis, and words...
the common vehicles will not accomplish the meaning
since dharmatā cannot be seen through words.

"The common yānas" refers to the nine yānas.

Adamantine said:
Now as a public teacher of Dzogchen, your presentation is much more traditional.

Malcolm wrote:
Only in the sense that I base myself on actual Dzogchen texts, which are not my own idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 1:05 AM
Title: Re: Correct sanskrit pronunciation
Content:


nyamlae said:
(གཞུང་ལས་ཥ་ནི་ཁ་དང་ཆ་མཐུན་པར་ཞེས་གསལ་བས་ཥ་འདིའི་སྒྲ་ཁ་ཞེས་བཀླག་དགོས། "As is clarified in the classics, ཥ་ has the same aspect as kha, and so the sound of this ཥ་ should be read as kha.")

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but these are incorrect pronunciations. Tibetans mispronounce mantras because there are certain sounds they cannot easily make, like kṣa in in the middle of a word, or hriḥ without a sibilant added to it.

If you wish to know how a Tibetan highly educated in Sanskrit pronounces mantras, you should read Sakya Pandita's Flower that Produces Fruit (sngags kyi klog thabs 'bras bu 'byung ba'i me tog, https://legacy.tbrc.org/#library_work_ViewByOutline-O01CT00264CZ122043%7CW22271 )

།ཤ་ཥ་ས་ཡི་ཡི་གེ་གསུམ།
སྐབས་ཀྱིས་ལྕེ་ལ་གང་བདེར་བཀླག

In other words, they are sibilants, produce with the tip of the tongue.

Sapan had thirty pandita tutors, there no more authoritative source for how Sanskrit was pronounced by 13th century Indians.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 12:51 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Virgo said:
Will you guys?  And what if he doesn't?  Will you go against him?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of for or against. It is a question of agree or disagree. There have always been people in the DC whose view is basically annihilationist. There are others who stridently insist they are not Buddhists. Still others who think Dzogchen, Advaita, and Trika have the same meaning. I disagree with them, and they know it. But I am not interested in conditioning them, even though they are completely wrong.
I should add, such people still have a connection with Dzogchen teachings, and so even if they do not obtain total realization in this life or the bardo, etc., they will eventually.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Eating meat that is destined for the trash
Content:



seeker242 said:
Compared to what is common, treating animals like insentient commodities to be used and consumed, yes VERY radical.

Malcolm wrote:
No, (some) animals are treated like sentient commodities, that must be fed, housed, given medical attention, and so on. Those who are not treated like commodities are swiftly becoming extinct.

seeker242 said:
An irrelevant distinction.

Malcolm wrote:
For you, not for me.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 12:39 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Virgo said:
Will you guys?  And what if he doesn't?  Will you go against him?

Malcolm wrote:
It is not a question of for or against. It is a question of agree or disagree. There have always been people in the DC whose view is basically annihilationist. There are others who stridently insist they are not Buddhists. Still others who think Dzogchen, Advaita, and Trika have the same meaning. I disagree with them, and they know it. But I am not interested in conditioning them, even though they are completely wrong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 20th, 2023 at 12:33 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Tongnyid Dorje said:
If not from anything else, this shift from "not to be involved in DC at all" to "give dzogchen teachings" alone is kind of strange to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Look, Merigar was in danger of losing its nonprofit religious status in Italy. They asked YN to be their spiritual leader. He agreed. It's as simple as that.

As to the Buddhist status of the DC, in its incorporation articles it states:
The Association recognizes the Four Noble Truths, taught by the Buddha Gautama Siddhartha Shakyamuni (5th century B.C.), in his sermon at Sarnath, as an integral part of the basic principles of Dzogchen teaching.
http://dzogchencommunity.org/assets/IDC-Statute_Valid-version-since-Nov-29-2021_ENG.pdf

This makes the DC indisputably Buddhist in character and doctrine.

Teaching here:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.piya.html

Tongnyid Dorje said:
Yes, I noticed that, but according to diffrent opinions here on DW some weeks ago, everybody  thoght it is just formal position to keep status of DC. Now situation changed little.

Malcolm wrote:
It may be the case that in Italy, a spiritual leader has to do something more than just be a name on a piece of paper in an office.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: Eating meat that is destined for the trash
Content:
seeker242 said:
You could call it radical but a pretty common perspective among the vegan community.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is a pretty radical community.

seeker242 said:
Compared to what is common, treating animals like insentient commodities to be used and consumed, yes VERY radical.

Malcolm wrote:
No, (some) animals are treated like sentient commodities, that must be fed, housed, given medical attention, and so on. Those who are not treated like commodities are swiftly becoming extinct.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 11:30 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Tongnyid Dorje said:
If not from anything else, this shift from "not to be involved in DC at all" to "give dzogchen teachings" alone is kind of strange to me.

Malcolm wrote:
Look, Merigar was in danger of losing its nonprofit religious status in Italy. They asked YN to be their spiritual leader. He agreed. It's as simple as that.

As to the Buddhist status of the DC, in its incorporation articles it states:
The Association recognizes the Four Noble Truths, taught by the Buddha Gautama Siddhartha Shakyamuni (5th century B.C.), in his sermon at Sarnath, as an integral part of the basic principles of Dzogchen teaching.
http://dzogchencommunity.org/assets/IDC-Statute_Valid-version-since-Nov-29-2021_ENG.pdf

This makes the DC indisputably Buddhist in character and doctrine.

Teaching here:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.piya.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 10:56 PM
Title: Re: Eating meat that is destined for the trash
Content:
seeker242 said:
You could call it radical but a pretty common perspective among the vegan community.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is a pretty radical community.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 10:31 PM
Title: Re: Deep-rooted Hindu wants to practice Buddha Dharma esp. Dzogchen
Content:
CuriousMonk said:
I'm here to learn about Buddha Dharma - its views of dependent origination and sunyata.

Malcolm wrote:
You should read Nāgārjuna and Āryadeva. If you can do so in Sanskrit, so much the better.

You should also read Śantarakṣita's Tattvasamgraha, where he goes through a detailed analysis of various siddhāntas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Eating meat that is destined for the trash
Content:
yinyangkoi said:
Hello,

I usually don't buy meat in order to reduce meat production and in order to minimize suffering. My question is now about meat that will be thrown away. There is an app that allows you to buy food that will be thrown away. It's always a surprise, and sometimes I get meat. I then eat this meat.
I feel this is acceptable since otherwise, the food would end up in the trash. What is your perspective?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no difference between buying meat that is freshly set out and meat that is going to be binned. If someone does not buy it, it is wasted.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 10:09 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Yet, he knew very well how to distinguish the meaning of Dzogchen from the culture surrounding it. He also knew how to adapt to a new culture without destroying Dzogchen, but without letting the culture where it had grown become an obstacle. So, he knew where to touch and where not to touch. So many things could be said about this.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was traditional in the right way.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because he never allowed "dzogchen" to be something other than Buddhadharma.

Dechen Norbu said:
Because Dzogchen is always Buddhadharma. That's not an option. Dzogchen cannot be something other than Buddhadharma without stopping being Dzogchen. But Buddhadharma and Buddhism are not the same.

Malcolm wrote:
Indeed, and there are certain things characteristic of Buddhadharma that are unalterable: dependent origination, karma, rebirth, emptinesss, and so on. If one seeks to diminish these these teachings, one does not get to core of dzogchen, quite the opposite, one hollows it out and makes it an empty husk.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 9:59 PM
Title: Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana
Content:
Domingo said:
In fact, my personal opinion is that other Dzogchen topics or Madhyamaka could lead to much more and more severe misconceptions than teachings on Tögal.

Malcolm wrote:
I don't agree, from personal experience of dealing with students. With things like Madhyamaka, etc., it is relatively simple to correct someone's intellectual understanding. This is not possible with thogal, etc. When someone misunderstands it, they misunderstand it completely because it is not something intellectual at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 9:55 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
Yet, he knew very well how to distinguish the meaning of Dzogchen from the culture surrounding it. He also knew how to adapt to a new culture without destroying Dzogchen, but without letting the culture where it had grown become an obstacle. So, he knew where to touch and where not to touch. So many things could be said about this.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was traditional in the right way.

Malcolm wrote:
This is because he never allowed "dzogchen" to be something other than Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 9:30 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
ChNN started that, among a few others.

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN was an utterly traditional teacher. The reason the Tibetan hierarchy became hysterical with him was that he a) negated mythology about Imperial Tibet b) negated the idea that all Tibetan culture and learning came from India and c) that we should not ignore Bonpo historical accounts. However, in content, is not in rhetoric, ChNN's Dharma teachings are standard fare across the board. He was in far more political trouble than he was in doctrinal trouble throughout his career. When I talk to lamas about ChNN they never bring up his Dharma, but rather, his politics.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 9:22 PM
Title: Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana
Content:
Domingo said:
Or do you think misconceptions on Tögal will block one's realization more than, let's say, the idea that reincarnation is just a myth?

Malcolm wrote:
I would say they are the in the same league. Equally serious misconceptions for totally different reasons, but they both lead to wrong view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 8:39 PM
Title: Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana
Content:
Domingo said:
The Nyingmapas still keep Tögal quite secret, the Bönpos teach it to virtually everyone who wants to listen. Is this unfortunate?

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN thought it was very unfortunate that the Bonpos were so open with theses teachings because misunderstanding them blocks one’s realization.

Domingo said:
Well, there are high Lamas who have similar ideas about the fact that ChNN taught Dzogchen so openly. So the question arises: Are all these Lamas wrong who criticized ChNN for teaching Dzogchen openly? Or are all Bön Lamas wrong who teach Tögal openly? In the end, if one is serious, one can only follow the advice of one's teacher(s). But then again, one might end up in a conundrum, if one has different root gurus with different perspectives on this topic.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no problem with _teaching_ thogal. But people can have serious misconceptions if they just randomly open books and think they can just go ahead. This is the issue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 8:35 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
dharmafootsteps said:
Yes, I was there and took six pages of careful, detailed notes. Mentioning that he doesn't believe in rebirth is not misrepresenting his position as he explicitly presented it in that meeting.

Domingo said:
May I ask which meeting that was? Was that the International Gakyil Meeting at Merigar West in Sept. 2008? I'm just asking because I have a couple of recordings from Yeshi, amongst others the recordings from this particular meeting....

Malcolm wrote:
No, it was on Oct 15 a couple of years ago, when YN told the DC he was done with it, not interested in leading it, and they should leave him alone.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 8:32 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Dechen Norbu said:
As you know so well, ChNN was also considered "extraordinary" by some people, to put it mildly.
I don't want to make the same mistake and will at least hear Yeshi. Then I'll have my opinion formed by what I heard myself.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not really what I meant by “extraordinary.” Anyway, there was a long thread about thus sometime back.

Dechen Norbu said:
I know. I just twisted it a little to fit my idea.
Malcolm, I've heard all sorts of things about many people, you included, during the 25 years I've been trying to practice Dharma. One of the things I learned was never putting too much trust in hearsay.

Malcolm wrote:
Oh, people say terrible things about me.

Of course it is completely fair for anyone to listen to YN at his upcoming open webcast. I wasn’t trying to dissuade you. I was merely pointing out that multiple witnesses in a meeting of 200 people all heard the same person, many of them heard what he said about reincarnation (and maybe he was referring to tulkus) and Tibetan superstitions, and this elevates these reports from hearsay to reliable testimony. I haven’t personally drawn any conclusions from this because people say things all the time they don’t  mean or are misunderstood.

But if he really thinks dzogchen needs to updated for modern times, well, I am personally not that interested.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 8:11 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
Dechen Norbu said:
I wasn’t addressing Yeshe’s reported remarks, just tiny locusts misconceptions.

The direct answer to your question is that several people here were party to the famous meeting. I was told that both meetings were quite extraordinary, to put it mildly.
As you know so well, ChNN was also considered "extraordinary" by some people, to put it mildly.
I don't want to make the same mistake and will at least hear Yeshi. Then I'll have my opinion formed by what I heard myself.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s not really what I meant by “extraordinary.” Anyway, there was a long thread about thus sometime back.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 8:04 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:


Dechen Norbu said:
But does someone here knows EXACTLY what Yeshi said, in which context, etc.? Because I find extremely hard to believe him to be a nihilist or a realist.

dharmafootsteps said:
Yes, I was there and took six pages of careful, detailed notes.

Dechen Norbu said:
I don't want to sound dismissive and I do thank you kindly for such disclosure, honestly, but it would take more than hearsay for me to accept thar Yeshi believes rebirth is simply a lie and rigpa is just an epiphenomenon of brain functioning.  That's why I will try to attend the webcast. I want to actually listen to him.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s not hearsay when it is backed up by multiple witnesses, and multiple records. But who knows what he actually thinks? Igor Berkhin told me Yeshe definitely rejects rebirth, and after the meeting, even went so far as to offer a course of “Dzogchen without rebirth” at one point.

Yeshe can speak for himself. And I know many people in the community who don’t accept rebirth. It’s hard for me to understand their interest in the teachings, but somehow it benefits them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 7:57 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
tinylocusta said:
[

Out of everything, it surprises me most that people got stuck with that particular statement. Even in the sutra system one of the most famous sutras conveys this meaning in a few succinct sentences (there is no path, no realization etc. - imagine the uproar here if Yeshi said that). Also some tantras end along the lines of "...but actually it never happened". And especially in Dzogchen, when you start your practice you need to discover something, and this something is beyond the concept of some entity traveling from one dimension to another assuming different bodies. It is not some secondary aspect, it is the very essence of practice. So it really surprises me that Dzogchen practitioners even start discussing that.

Malcolm wrote:
Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen, like all teachings of the Buddha, it’s the main point. That’s why it is mentioned over and over again in the 17 tantras, etc.

Further, in Buddhadharma, there is no idea of some entity traveling through dimensions, but there is an idea of serial continuity between this life and the next.

In fact, most Dzogchen practitioners attain their awakening in the bardo, after mind and body separate. It is for this reason such extensive teachings exist on the signs of death, and so on, and what the experience of the death and bardo process entails.

In fact, without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.

Dechen Norbu said:
But does someone here knows EXACTLY what Yeshi said, in which context, etc.? Because I find extremely hard to believe him to be a nihilist or a realist.

Malcolm wrote:
I wasn’t addressing Yeshe’s reported remarks, just tiny locusts misconceptions.

The direct answer to your question is that several people here were party to the famous meeting. I was told that both meetings were quite extraordinary, to put it mildly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 7:37 PM
Title: Re: Thogal, Visions, Tibetan Sorcery, Siddhis, and Indian Vajrayana
Content:
Domingo said:
The Nyingmapas still keep Tögal quite secret, the Bönpos teach it to virtually everyone who wants to listen. Is this unfortunate?

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN thought it was very unfortunate that the Bonpos were so open with theses teachings because misunderstanding them blocks one’s realization.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 7:29 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi's really back!
Content:
tinylocusta said:
[

Out of everything, it surprises me most that people got stuck with that particular statement. Even in the sutra system one of the most famous sutras conveys this meaning in a few succinct sentences (there is no path, no realization etc. - imagine the uproar here if Yeshi said that). Also some tantras end along the lines of "...but actually it never happened". And especially in Dzogchen, when you start your practice you need to discover something, and this something is beyond the concept of some entity traveling from one dimension to another assuming different bodies. It is not some secondary aspect, it is the very essence of practice. So it really surprises me that Dzogchen practitioners even start discussing that.

Malcolm wrote:
Ending rebirth in the three realms is not a secondary consideration in Dzogchen, like all teachings of the Buddha, it’s the main point. That’s why it is mentioned over and over again in the 17 tantras, etc.

Further, in Buddhadharma, there is no idea of some entity traveling through dimensions, but there is an idea of serial continuity between this life and the next.

In fact, most Dzogchen practitioners attain their awakening in the bardo, after mind and body separate. It is for this reason such extensive teachings exist on the signs of death, and so on, and what the experience of the death and bardo process entails.

In fact, without the existential issue of birth in samsara, Dzogchen teachings are of no consequence at all, and completely lose meaning and relevance. This kind of “Ati lite (tm)” is just an empty lifestyle choice.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 9:31 AM
Title: Re: Eating meat that is destined for the trash
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Those with compassion eat meat,
Those with samaya drink alcohol.
— Hevajra Tantra


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: the difference between Prajñāparāmita and Madhyamaka
Content:


ThreeVows said:
Generally speaking, Nagarjuna for the most part focuses on the profound aspect which relates to emptiness, the singular nature of dharmata of all dharmas, etc, and Asanga/Maitreya primarily focus on the vast aspect, although these are not hard and fast rules.

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna focuses in Prajñāpāramitā as the basis; Maitreyanatha focuses on Prajñāpāramitā as the path and result.

ThreeVows said:
That's interesting, can you say any more about that?

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna focuses on suchness, which is the basis, and eliminating reification concerning it through properly understanding dependent origination. Maitreyanātha is mainly concerned with the structure of the path concealed in the PP sutras.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 4:36 AM
Title: Re: the difference between Prajñāparāmita and Madhyamaka
Content:


ThreeVows said:
Generally speaking, Nagarjuna for the most part focuses on the profound aspect which relates to emptiness, the singular nature of dharmata of all dharmas, etc, and Asanga/Maitreya primarily focus on the vast aspect, although these are not hard and fast rules.

Malcolm wrote:
Nāgārjuna focuses in Prajñāpāramitā as the basis; Maitreyanatha focuses on Prajñāpāramitā as the path and result.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 11:13 PM
Title: Re: Deep-rooted Hindu wants to practice Buddha Dharma esp. Dzogchen
Content:
mahabuddha said:
Choose one and stick with it.

Astus said:
Not necessarily. Some examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennedy_%28Jesuit%29 (born June 20, 1933) is an American Jesuit priest, professor of theology, psychoanalyst and Zen rōshi in the White Plum lineage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ama_Samy (Arul Maria Arokiasamy), S.J., born in 1936, is an Indian Zen master and Jesuit priest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ishmael_Ford (Zeno Myoun, Roshi) is an American Zen Buddhist priest and a retired Unitarian Universalist minister.

Malcolm wrote:
Someone who really understands the meaning of Buddhadharma will not cherish a refuge in these theistic traditions, even if they maintain ties to them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 9:52 PM
Title: Re: Deep-rooted Hindu wants to practice Buddha Dharma esp. Dzogchen
Content:


CuriousMonk said:
Does taking refuge in the 1st Jewel i.e. Buddha means taking refuge in our own primordial state or does it mean taking refuge in the highest beings who are called the Buddhas (e.g. Shakyamuni and Akshobhya)?

Also, if I continue my puja of the Hindu deities and keep following the Hindu rituals after taking refuge in the Buddha Dharma, which means I would still allocate a certain level of high respect to the Hindu Deities and system. So, would I consider the Hindu deities to be Bodhisattvas then? What would be the correct attitude to adopt towards the Hindu deities, scriptures, and rituals after the refuge?

Malcolm wrote:
As for your first question, ultimately, there is no Buddha apart from your mind. But there is also no contradiction between going for outer refuge to the Buddha and understanding that Buddha himself was pointing you to your state. So it us both.

You can continue to respect your ancestral tradition, as the Buddha recommended in Mahaparinbbaba sutta.

The correct attitude towards these traditions is that their ultimate view is mistaken, but many if their practices have mundane benefits.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 11:43 AM
Title: Re: Buddhism on laymen having two wives.
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
Well, according to buddhadharma. is there an ethical problem in living with two women interested in dharma?

Malcolm wrote:
No. Buddhism has no position on polyamory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 5:34 AM
Title: Re: Deep-rooted Hindu wants to practice Buddha Dharma esp. Dzogchen
Content:
climb-up said:
I wonder if he was influenced by HHDL recommending against people converting to Buddhism. IDK, but HH is also (obviously) fine with people becoming Buddhist if they feel truly called too.
From a Dzogchen perspective, if you have the good karma to be interested in the teachings and the opportunity to receive them …you should do that.

Malcolm wrote:
Nevertheless, maintaining refuge in an external creator, etc., as a Dzogchen practitioner is not correct. Ultimately, in Dzogchen we take refuge in our own primordial state, which is free from extremes and totally perfect, not some external being or a permanent state of existence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 2:00 AM
Title: Re: Spoilt for choice!
Content:
mnuuu said:
I didn't think was worth starting a new thread for:

The Lama at the Dharma centre has agreed to give me the lung and some instruction to start practising Ngondro! I'll head over and stay at the centre at the end of Jan. The centre has a suggested donation per night but when I asked about making a donation beyond this for the teaching they said it is up to me. I would like to make a donation that is appropriate, however, as a grad student I'm not rolling in spare cash ahah. Is there a good amount I could give? Or is this a "how long is a piece of string" type question?

I'm not certain, but feel it may be just me receiving the lung. Up until now, bar from the refuge ceremony I attended, I have revived teachings solely via my PC monitor. Are there some simple guidelines I could follow in regards to behaviour and so on when meeting the Lama? Beyond good manners and being respectful!

Thanks again for any input!

Malcolm wrote:
$108 and offer the lama a kata when you meet them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 18th, 2023 at 12:20 AM
Title: Re: Deep-rooted Hindu wants to practice Buddha Dharma esp. Dzogchen
Content:


CuriousMonk said:
Being a deep-rooted Hindu I have read here, that higher Bodhisattvas defeated the Hindu deities like (Lord Siva); and Hindu deities like Rudra (an angry form of Siva) are actually considered hell beings in Vajrayana. So, if I take refuge in the Buddha Dharma, would the Hindu deities punish me, and will I be sent to hell?

Malcolm wrote:
This is not true, they are not considered hell beings in Buddhism.

Buddhism considers such entities to be wordly beings caught in samsara.

CuriousMonk said:
Secondly,  I was once consulting a Sowa Rigpa doctor in Delhi for my mother, and I casually mentioned to him my interest in the Buddha Dharma; he strictly advised me not to leave my religion and convert to Buddhism because otherwise, I'll have trouble at the time of death. He said this multiple times on my subsequent visits too. I couldn't understand the basis of his warning but got scared.

Malcolm wrote:
That's a very strange statement, and it has no basis in fact.

CuriousMonk said:
So, how can a deep-rooted cultural Hindu resolve the above paradox and be in the good light of both the Hindu and Buddhist deities and still be able to take refuge in the Buddha Dharma?

Malcolm wrote:
There is no problem with doing pujas, and so on. The real difference is that one would be taking the Buddha as one's teacher and refuge, and not Shiva, Krishna, etc.

The real question is, do you want to seek refuge in the Three Jewels. If you do, there is no problem and no downside. As a Hindu, you can even continue to do the pujas you used to do. The only thing that has to change is your attitude towards these gods. But since they all have themselves taken refuge in the Buddha, there is no problem.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 17th, 2023 at 10:51 AM
Title: Re: Jigme Rangdröl
Content:
Marenz said:
Hey,
Has anyone taking teachings from Jigme Rangdröl (Joe Evans) of the Rangdröl Foundation( https://www.rangdrolfoundation.com/ )? Or, can anyone speak to his authorization to teach? I’m just trying to do my due diligence before attending any teaching with him. Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Joe Evans is my student and I vouch for him 100%.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 17th, 2023 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:
KristenM said:
There's even a town nearby called Delhi which everyone here pronounces "Del-High," which is ridiculous.

Virgo said:
Same here.  I used to leave close to this town (about 20 miles):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi,_New_York

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgaJgUjfs9Q

The solar panel project sounds like a great initiative.

Virgo


Malcolm wrote:
The problem with Americans is that if you pronounce it Delee, they will think you are talking a new place to get a pastrami on rye.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 17th, 2023 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Self-Secrecy: Origins and Legitimacy
Content:
stong gzugs said:
We sometimes hear that vajrayana teachings are "self-secret"

Malcolm wrote:
It's mainly a Nyingma idea, criticized by Sapan.

However, it is legitimate and arises from the fact that unlike the meaning and practice of lower vehicles, the meaning and practice of Dzogchen teachings of the upadeśa class cannot be arrived at through words, analysis, or even through prajñā, but only through requesting the intimate instructions from a qualified guru. Thus, if you should pick up a Dzogchen text, without proper instruction you will not understand its meaning even if you think you understand the words and the meanings. This is what "self-secret" means.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 17th, 2023 at 2:17 AM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
what was the meaning of that anecdote?

Malcolm wrote:
He used to frequently contrast his feeling of strong sectarianism for Sakya with his post-Changchub Dorje POV.

But he also said many times that since his main education was in Sakya, when it came to Sutra and Tantra, he explained things according to the Sakya school. We used to chat a lot about his Sakya college professors.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 17th, 2023 at 1:58 AM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
Elio Guarisco, who was also a student of HHST41, claimed that the Sakya education had actually shaped ChNN's approach to the Dharma -- that, apart from Dzogchen, obviously, it had been *the* crucial influence on ChNN.

Malcolm wrote:
For anyone raised in Sakya, like myself, that is pretty obvious. ChNN even mentions this many times in autobiographical remarks.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 17th, 2023 at 1:18 AM
Title: Re: Self liberation
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
'Know one thing all is liberated'

Does that mean knowing your own state all afflictions automatically liberate when resting in that state through the power of your own state

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, that is what it means.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 17th, 2023 at 12:38 AM
Title: Re: Did Ch. Namkhai Norbu R. attain rainbow body?
Content:


Sādhaka said:
Even though many Sakyapas do practice Mahasandhi, I don't see how any Sakyapa monastery would particularly benefit in an worldly way from recognizing the Tulku of a Guru whose previous Incarnation was known for only wanting to teach Dzogchen and little to no Sakya or Kagyu practices, and also whose previous Tulkus were associated with the Kagyu of Bhutan. Therefore, if this report is true, perhaps Chögyal Namkhai Norbu did change his mind about not reincarnating here again....

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN was also recognized as the tulku of a Sakya Khenpo. Not only that, but Adzom Drukpa's main teacher was affiliated with Sakya. Not only this, but HHST and CHNN were quite close.

I don't think this has anything to do with ChNN changing his mind. If the tulku is real, it is because ChNN's transcendent state is manifesting that effortlessly.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 17th, 2023 at 12:31 AM
Title: Re: dzogchen and its Chinese chan connection
Content:



Kai lord said:
And that also ends the possibility of two Vimalamitra.



How did the Tibetans lose the earlier accounts and how did they recover them?

Malcolm wrote:
The account I am referring is the Lamp for the Eye of Concentration by Nubchen. It was lost for nearly a thousand years before it was rediscovered by CR Lama. Dylan Esler recently published a translation of it, which apart from some lexicon choices, is very valuable.

Passing By said:
How did the paper on which it was printed survive that long?

Malcolm wrote:
Tibet is very dry.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 16th, 2023 at 3:23 AM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
Leo Rivers said:
I believe a non-Indian origin for 'authentic' Buddhist speach is acceptable.

Malcolm wrote:
Content is more important than provenance.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 16th, 2023 at 2:40 AM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It’s really not about his arguments…but even so, there are problems with his approach, for example, his willfully ignoring Wongchuk’s reference to an earlier translation and so on.

Leo Rivers said:
Could you expand upon this please? Wongchuk's reference and the credibility of his reference as to confidence in it would be a start.

Thanks

Malcolm wrote:
Wongchuk mentions in a commentary that he has seen an earlier translation of the Heart Sūtra.  The paper I posted also pokes a lot holes in Nattier's theory.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 15th, 2023 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: Two Truths Doctrine
Content:
Ardha said:
It's part of why I'm hesitate to look further into this, because I don't want to give up my emotions or the things I like to do, even if it would mean I'm living a lie.

Malcolm wrote:
Realized people only experience positive emotions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 15th, 2023 at 10:32 PM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:



PeterC said:
Where I struggle is with why he thinks this really matters.

Malcolm wrote:
Boredom explains many pointless human endeavors.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 15th, 2023 at 9:13 PM
Title: Re: dzogchen and its Chinese chan connection
Content:
mingweicello said:
but for vimalamitra, it seems the location and history of the place where he supposed to dissolve his body is much more clear.

Malcolm wrote:
Apart from the fact that Nubchen Sangye Yeshe clearly states that Vimalamitra passed away in Tibet, and he is the earliest source for the life of Vimalamitra.

Kai lord said:
And that also ends the possibility of two Vimalamitra.
I am just saying that earlier accounts, lost to Tibetans for centuries, contradict some claims made in later, more legend-based accounts that are more widely known.
How did the Tibetans lose the earlier accounts and how did they recover them?

Malcolm wrote:
The account I am referring is the Lamp for the Eye of Concentration by Nubchen. It was lost for nearly a thousand years before it was rediscovered by CR Lama. Dylan Esler recently published a translation of it, which apart from some lexicon choices, is very valuable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 15th, 2023 at 1:27 AM
Title: Re: dzogchen and its Chinese chan connection
Content:
mingweicello said:
but for vimalamitra, it seems the location and history of the place where he supposed to dissolve his body is much more clear.

Malcolm wrote:
Apart from the fact that Nubchen Sangye Yeshe clearly states that Vimalamitra passed away in Tibet, and he is the earliest source for the life of Vimalamitra. The account of Vimalamitra traveling to the five peaked mountain also comes from the lo rgyus chen mo.

Virgo said:
Searching for rhetoric in a system that relies on dialectic, and then rhetorically uses that fact to establish itself and an authority.

Virgo

Malcolm wrote:
Huh? I am just saying that earlier accounts, lost to Tibetans for centuries, contradict some claims made in later, more legend-based accounts that are more widely known.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 14th, 2023 at 10:30 PM
Title: Re: dzogchen and its Chinese chan connection
Content:
mingweicello said:
but for vimalamitra, it seems the location and history of the place where he supposed to dissolve his body is much more clear.

Malcolm wrote:
Apart from the fact that Nubchen Sangye Yeshe clearly states that Vimalamitra passed away in Tibet, and he is the earliest source for the life of Vimalamitra. The account of Vimalamitra traveling to the five peaked mountain also comes from the lo rgyus chen mo.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 14th, 2023 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: dzogchen and its Chinese chan connection
Content:
mingweicello said:
thanks for the information. I read those from biographies in Chinese, which was translated from Tibetan.  I guess the original Tibetan text was written in the 19th century. really late for sure.

Malcolm wrote:
As far as I know, the earliest account placing Shri Simha in Asia is the lo rgyus chen mo, which dates to the mid 12th century, though it is certainly based on an earlier tradition. However, the klong sde and sems sde accounts, which are closely aligned, are silent on this score, as is Manshrikirti in the late 10th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 14th, 2023 at 8:41 PM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
tingdzin said:
Malcolm's says about two of Attwood's points (Heart Sutra probably being a back-translation, and prajnaparamita not being inseparably wedded to madhyamika) that they are non-controversial, which they should be, but  in point of fact a very large number of academics still denies or ignores them.
Some of the reactions here show that what should be taken for granted by now is still surprising or unacceptable to both them and some lay Buddhists.

I am with Keith in thinking it doesn't make any difference where the Heart Sutra was composed, but there is an entire edifice built on "all authentic Buddhism came from India", which had and has supporters in both China and Tibet, and to which challenges are either ignored or suppressed. The historical reasons for that are tied into motivations of authenticity and so power politics, so it's not always a trivial question.  Attwood is just frustrated by that, I think.

Malcolm wrote:
And, there are good counter arguments to Nattier’s claims:

https://academia.edu/resource/work/34979344


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 14th, 2023 at 11:29 AM
Title: Re: dzogchen and its Chinese chan connection
Content:
mingweicello said:
another topic is about the identity of shri simha, a Chinese by ethic,

Malcolm wrote:
Probably not. This idea is quite late.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 14th, 2023 at 4:44 AM
Title: The Southwest is dooomed
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/tree-rings-are-evidence-of-the-megadrought-and-our-doom/?fbclid=IwAR24GlieIbKBHZAatnc8MOLHGQ9pcs4qIx69Gr0Cf42JSIcPxNPNvhsTmRI

Unknown said:
It’s important to note that nearly 100 years ago, on November 24, 1922, delegates from seven U.S. states gathered in Santa Fe, New Mexico, to sign the Colorado River Compact—and inadvertently set the region up for failure.

The delegates believed the average Colorado River stream flow was 16.5 million acre-feet per year. So, their agreement apportioned 7.5 million acre-feet of water annually to provide for growing cities, industrial applications, and irrigation for farming in what they hoped would be a sustainable way. This would allow the remaining 9 million acre-feet per year to maintain the Colorado River ecosystem. Or so they thought.

The instrumental stream-flow data they employed to inform the compact came from a 22-year period between 1900 and 1921. In an almost unbelievable twist of fate, the Colorado River enjoyed a significantly higher stream flow during that 22-year period than at any other period in the last 500 years! We now know this through tree-ring analyses.

Compact signatories therefore legally bound themselves to unrealistically large allocations because their input data, unbeknownst to them and by sheer chance, came from an anomalously wet period in the climatic history of the U.S. Southwest. People in the region have been dealing with the consequences of this ever since.

It seems highly unlikely that the compact will be renegotiated given the current political climate. Politics may supersede nature in the short run, but Mother Nature will rule in the long run.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 13th, 2023 at 8:13 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:



Anders said:
Well, in most given cases, there is a transition from one's current human existence to an immortal existence. usually ascending into the heavens in some form.

Malcolm wrote:
Taoist rapture.


Sādhaka said:
Not quite though;

Malcolm wrote:
It was a joke.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 13th, 2023 at 5:37 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
Personally, I kind of let loose here in a way I don’t around non-Buddhists. The religious people I interact with are so far from Dharma points of view that all you can really talk about is very general ideas of compassion, ethics, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 13th, 2023 at 3:00 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
PadmaVonSamba said:
Doesn’t this just finally come down to meaning that ultimately there is only awareness occurring?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, which is why it is a wrong view, explicitly rejected by 2500 years of Buddhist masters.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 13th, 2023 at 2:28 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Bapho said:
On the other hand, other traditions simply do not develop the concept of "Sunyata" or "PratitiaSamutpada" for nothing has to do with a lack of comprehension or understanding, it is only that they have a different approach ...

PeterC said:
OK, please supply textual references from any other tradition that show understanding of those two concepts. Just those, let's ignore everything else for now.


Bapho said:
Well, the concept of Adviya (ignorance), initial link and I would say that the principal of dependent origin (since if this does not originate), not only develops in Buddhism. Also in Advaita Vedanta is a central theme.

Malcolm wrote:
Well, no actually. Shankara basically embraces the Samkhya model (with qualifications):

Śaṅkara argues that prior to universe emergence, when all objects, time, and space, are unmanifest, only primordial undifferentiated existence exists (see ChUBh 6.2.1–2 for example). This existence is a single potential cause free of form; but even after the universe emerges, there is still just that single cause. It persists through all objects and causation, like the clay persists through its changing forms.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/shankara/

The idea that there is a single cause stands in direct contradiction to dependent origination. Further, this position of Advaita is also rejected by the Buddha:

Following his readings of the Upaniṣads, Śaṅkara identifies īśvara as both the material and intelligent causes of the universe (BrSūBh 1.1.2). Īśvara emanates the universe through a cosmic causal power (māyāṣakti), and is the very process of becoming itself, a beginningless cycle of universe manifestation, sustenance, and dissolution. This process is an auto-cosmogony, making īśvara the material of the universe. As nothing but īśvara, the whole universe is sentient and self-aware. (See Ram-Prasad 2013; Comans 2000; Hacker 1995; and Warrier 1977 for further discussions of īśvara).

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/shankara/#IisvGod

Bapho said:
For those who say that Advaita Vedanta speaks of an "eternal absolute self " or who believes in an "eternal absolute" is just one of those "annoying calsifications" to order things in the head.

Malcolm wrote:
As far as I can tell, not only do you understand nothing of Buddhism, you understand nothing of Advaita either.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 13th, 2023 at 12:06 AM
Title: Re: Permanent/Static phenomena as unconditioned
Content:


newBee said:
What I can't understand is why they say "Static phenomena are unaffected by causes and conditions"...

Isn't this contrary to the Law of Dependent Arising? Is it because "MOMENTARILY" is always implied with these phenomena?

Malcolm wrote:
Classically, there are only three kinds of uncompounded phenomena: space and the two types of cessation. To this we can add emptiness, the nature of things, which is also uncompounded.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 10:34 PM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions in Nepal
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Then you have not been practicing Dzogchen.

Anders said:
He said that already.

Malcolm wrote:
There isn't such a thing as "Dzogchen-style" meditation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 10:25 PM
Title: Re: Altruism
Content:
Konchog Thogme Jampa said:
Internet drying up for Bodhicitta quotes they're all in this thread though

If anyone knows any good texts/pdf and so on feel free to message me

Malcolm wrote:
Vast as the Heavens, Deep as the Sea: Verses in Praise of Bodhicitta by Khunu Lama.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 10:19 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
How is immortality a "post-mortem" result?

Anders said:
Well, in most given cases, there is a transition from one's current human existence to an immortal existence. usually ascending into the heavens in some form.

Malcolm wrote:
Taoist rapture.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 9:45 PM
Title: Re: Pointing out instructions in Nepal
Content:


Redpanda123 said:
My background: I’ve been doing Dzogchen style mediations for a few years now on my own through online resources.

Malcolm wrote:
Then you have not been practicing Dzogchen.

Redpanda123 said:
Does anyone have any suggestions for where to go/who to seek out/how to move forward in Nepal (or elsewhere-regionally) ? thank you!!!

Malcolm wrote:
Since you are in Nepal, there is Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, Migyur Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, and Phakchok RInpoche and if you go to India, you can meet Dzongsar Rinpoche, and tons of Nyingmapa Khenpos who are quite expert in Dzogchen teachings.

But you have to abandon your idea of gradual vs sudden, and practice precisely according to their instructions.

You can also do the Bonpo thing, there is a Bonpo monastery in Nepal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Kai lord said:
The true end goal for Taoist is 天人合一, the perfect union between heaven and man.

Anders said:
I paused a bit on the Daoist bit, because I did consider that basically there are a number of goals in Daoism, since it is not nearly as homogenous in this regard as the others mentioned, so decided to just go with the one part where Daoism actually addresses a post-mortem result like the others do.

Malcolm wrote:
How is immortality a "post-mortem" result? Also, in Hinduism in general there is the notion of jivanmukti, liberation during life.

In any case, all these ideas of liberation are not commensurate with one another, let alone commensurate with liberation as defined in Buddhadharma. Indeed, Hindus who accept rebirth have a completely different understanding of karma and rebirth, so as to render their notions of samsara entirely dissimilar from that of the Buddha. Jews and Confucians don't really have an idea of an afterlife; we all know about Christianity and Islam and their notions. None of these ideas are compatible with dependent origination/emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 8:48 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That’s not where one starts however. And once one concludes that right view, etc., is found only in Buddhadharma, what is the use of pretending otherwise?

Anders said:
To promote a spirit of ecumenism? I am not advocating pretence, but clearly there is a wide latitude between your style of presentation and the Dalai Lama's.

Malcolm wrote:
I am not a retired head of state, nor am I interested in ecumenical dialogue. I don’t discuss Dharma with nonBuddhists.

Anders said:
The world could use more softening of walls between us. The spirit in which we exchange such views are also opportunities grasped or missed for promoting maitri, mudita and so forth.

Malcolm wrote:
Which is why I don’t discuss Dharma with nonBuddhists. Like HHDL said, “it’s none of their business.” Instead I agree with HHDL:
Today, however, any religion-based answer to the problem of our neglect of inner values can never be universal, and so will be inadequate. What we need today is an approach to ethics which makes no recourse to religion and can be equally acceptable to those with faith and those without: a secular ethics.
— Beyond Religion

However, when people come here, I am inclined to be frank and honest in my assessment of the value of other paths.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 7:43 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Anders said:
Personally, being of a pragmatic orientation, I find the classical Buddhist analysis that only those who fill out the "right view" quiz correctly can go all the way altogether one-sided. The Buddha's word on what was the case in his day is not an adequate analysis of present-day paths, where many of these have inter-mingled and borrowed vehemently from each other for millennia (and of course, many Tibetan Buddhists fail to mention that they don't really hold this view themselves, since they incidentally acknowledge their own indigenous Bon tradition as the one exception).

Malcolm wrote:
Disagree. Apart from Buddhadharma, all the other spiritual and philosophical traditions are either eternalist, annihilationist, or fail to be concerned with liberation from the cycle of rebirth at all

(As for Bonpos, they just rewrote Buddhism to fit a nativist narrative without changing the essentials. Ironically, the Bonpos also claim a foreign origin for their tradition.)


Anders said:
And frankly, suffers in most places equally from a similar uninspired a priori standpoint "let us start with the assumption that only Buddhism has it right, and then proceed to make the case for it." The dull binary argumentation that tends to follow is perhaps a reflection of the unspirited motivation.


Malcolm wrote:
That’s not where one starts however. And once one concludes that right view, etc., is found only in Buddhadharma, what is the use of pretending otherwise?

Aryadeva said famously, “Liberation proceeds from view.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 11:28 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Johnny Dangerous said:
but claiming it’s just Malcolm being closed minded here is just not accurate.

Malcolm wrote:
I am definitely closed-minded, but not without good reason.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 11:21 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:
KristenM said:
I keep hearing Led Zeppelin’s “When the Levee Breaks” in my head.

https://water.weather.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?wfo=hnx&gage=meec1

Malcolm wrote:
IMG_4570.jpeg

KristenM said:
I was enjoying Led Zeppelin. Now I have Don McLean’s Miss American Pie song stuck in my head, terrible.



Malcolm wrote:
There, fixed it for you.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 11:16 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


Bapho said:
On the other hand, other traditions simply do not develop the concept of "Sunyata" or "PratitiaSamutpada" for nothing has to do with a lack of comprehension or understanding, it is only that they have a different approach ...

Malcolm wrote:
It just means they do not understand the actual state of things ( yathabhuta ) since they are incapable of articulating dependent origination or emptiness. It is outside their comprehension. Since they have a different approach, they have a different understanding of liberation, one that is not commensurate with what the Buddha taught. The alternative is that liberation has nothing to do with view, and then one is left with a morass of confusion. In this case, what is the cause of liberation if one can find it in any tradition? Presumably then, one can find liberation in Marxism, Empiricism, Nihilism, Theism, Scientism, Capitalism, etc. If one cannot find liberation in these traditions, it is up to you to explain why.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 7:58 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
How are their studies conducted? What are the control groups? There are miles of issues with these types of studies. How do you quantify trekcho? etc.

stong gzugs said:
The literature is much wider than just mindfulness meditation. Just off the top of my head, there are studies of people http://dx.plos.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0058244, resting in the https://mustangbonfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/neuroawakening.pdf, and even https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.599190/full. HHDL has approved of this line of inquiry.

The work on the contraindications is fairly new, and is focused on the most common practices like mindfulness meditation and other mindfulness modalities, but has good practical advice about pre-screening people and making relevant adjustments for them.

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, but these studies are so poorly framed as to be useless, filled with subjective criteria that cannot possibly be measured empirically.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 6:18 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Lay meditation is a very new thing. So it's helpful to understand for whom meditation will be contra-indicated, what types of meditation produce what types of risks, etc. That's why the science matters.

Our traditions and teachers aren't well prepared for the range of outcomes that can occur in this new context. Part of this is cultural.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not true, actually.

stong gzugs said:
If you're disputing lay meditation being new, this is fairly well-established. Check out Jordt's book "Burma's mass lay meditation movement: Buddhism and the cultural construction of power." It does a great job of explaining the forces that led to vipassana being popularized among the laity, and thus set the stage for the modern mindfulness movement.

If you're disputing preparation levels for dealing with novel issues that lay Westerners experience in meditation, I'd simply say there's always room for improvement here and I believe the science can help in this regard.

Malcolm wrote:
I am disagreeing with this:
So it's helpful to understand for whom meditation will be contra-indicated, what types of meditation produce what types of risks, etc. That's why the science matters.
First, what do they mean by meditation? So far, they are only researching "mindfulness-based meditation."

How are their studies conducted? What are the control groups? There are miles of issues with these types of studies. How do you quantify trekcho? etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 6:08 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Siderits talks about this in his https://www.google.com/books/edition/Buddhism_as_Philosophy/bK6O4Z7RyH8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22four%20sights%22.

Malcolm wrote:
Siderits isn't a Buddhist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 5:58 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
It is clear what causes such things to occur—an absence of teachers who understand what they are doing.

stong gzugs said:
I don't disagree with anything you've said. We do have to be realistic, however, that huge amounts of people on various medications, with prior trauma, etc. and are turning to Buddhist or Buddhist-derived meditation for some relief from suffering.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I generally recommend that such people do other practices than long bouts of sitting meditation.

stong gzugs said:
Lay meditation is a very new thing. So it's helpful to understand for whom meditation will be contra-indicated, what types of meditation produce what types of risks, etc. That's why the science matters.

Our traditions and teachers aren't well prepared for the range of outcomes that can occur in this new context. Part of this is cultural.

Malcolm wrote:
That is not true, actually.

Also the "science" really isn't well informed.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 5:41 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


stong gzugs said:
Yep, and plenty of techniques within valid lineages that promise liberation reliably lead to bad side effects. I'm talking about https://harpers.org/archive/2021/04/lost-in-thought-psychological-risks-of-meditation/. We need to understand why and that's what these researchers are doing.

Malcolm wrote:
It is clear what causes such things to occur—an absence of teachers who understand what they are doing.

It is not the "technique," it is the lack of adequate training and preparation, as well as an approach to meditation that view it as a technique. Since people often jump into "meditation" without sufficient grounding in the Buddhist psychosomatic model, which applies in all traditions from Hinayāna through Dzogchen, as well as being lead by "teachers" who are insufficiently grounded in this model, and not being informed that meditation itself is not a panacea, and in fact, has hazards (all described in traditional texts, mainly vata aggravation, BTW), it leads to problems.

Then there is the trivialization and commodification of "meditation," etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Thanks, fckw. Yeah, that was in line with what I was thinking, and I've definitely seen that set of symptoms. A group of researchers including Willoughby Britton are exploring it and other dangers of serious meditation now. There's a fine line between realizing non-self and depersonalization.

Malcolm wrote:
The point of dharma is liberation, freedom from afflictions that cause rebirth, not meditation.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 5:11 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
You can also read Harris' book here:

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Theravada%20Buddhism%20&%20British%20Encounter_Harris.pdf

stong gzugs said:
Thanks. Funny how the "Buddha was a nihilist" and "Buddha was a social reformer" narratives co-existed in the orientalist imagination...

Malcolm wrote:
Also:

https://www.academia.edu/81618482/Were_Buddhist_Brahmins_Buddhists_or_Brahmins?email_work_card=thumbnail


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 4:46 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Bapho said:
If I do not know several things, but I am sure, the "natural state" or the "nature of the mind" does not belong or of any tradition or guru or inside or outside Buddhism.

Malcolm wrote:
The natural state ( bhutatā ) of the mind is emptiness. Emptiness is taught only by the Buddha. The same is true of dependent origination. There is no possibility of liberation for those who do not understand dependent origination and emptiness.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 4:25 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
No, it dates back to protestant orientalism of the 19th century.

stong gzugs said:
Are you alluding to Tweed's book on The American Encounter with Buddhism, or something else? If so, it's been awhile, but that's not exactly what I remember its message to be.

Malcolm wrote:
No, I am alluding to the attitude on the part of 19th century orientalists that Buddha was an egalitarian reformer, whom they made in their own image.

Though I did not derive my understanding from Olendski, his essay touches upon this point:
Protestant Buddhism’ is a label that has been applied to certain progressive elements in the Theravāda tradition, first in Sri Lanka in the 19th century, and more recently to modernist Buddhism in this country and around the globe. It is sometimes used as a pejorative, to the extent the enterprise is regarded as tainted with orientalist and colonialist attitudes, along with the historical Euro-centrism that led the first western Buddhists to immediately begin the task of “improving upon” the traditional manifestations of Buddhism in Asia. Another point against it is its tendency to downplay or even marginalize the role of the ordained Sangha...

Let’s look at some of the parallels. In ancient India the Brahmins held specialized sacred knowledge of the Vedic hymns, and were the only ones qualified to perform the rituals needed for the well being of the population. The entire Śramaņa movement was a rebellion against this privileged information, and the Buddha, like other wandering ascetics, taught that anyone can gain direct access to spiritual understanding by practicing meditation and understanding the Dhamma for themselves. This is much like the Protestants in Europe by-passing the Church and empowering people to study the Bible for themselves and forge their own meaning from it directly.
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/a-protestant-buddhism/

You can also read Harris' book here:

http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Theravada%20Buddhism%20&%20British%20Encounter_Harris.pdf


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 4:12 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
stong gzugs said:
tempting to sell Buddhism to boomers during their hippie phase, IMO.

Malcolm wrote:
No, it dates back to protestant orientalism of the 19th century.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 3:47 AM
Title: Re: Consideration on Proceeding
Content:


Ikkyu's_Son said:
Any thoughts on this, as I am ready to continue forward with practice after deliberating on this for quite some time.

Malcolm wrote:
There is no fault in remaining with this teacher. Innocent until proven guilty. Not a big fan of cancelling people without proof.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 3:41 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
fckw said:
Actually, if you study what Gautama Buddha said, there are some passages where he did not explicitly reject the idea of a self, but rather the question whether there is or is not a self based on the argument that the whole discussion around the topic is simply not helpful.

It is fascinating how many Buddhists heavily make use of the argument of no-self to demonstrate that they are "completely different" from Vedantins, hence ignoring those passages.

stong gzugs said:
We actually have http://academic.oup.com/jaar/article/doi/10.1093/jaarel/lfx024/4065446/When-Did-Buddhism-Become-AntiBrahmanical-The-Case on this now. A professor did a statistical analyses of the Pāli suttas and found that anatta is only mentioned in 378 of these 5,126 discourses (about 7.4%), which can be compared with 368 for the Noble Eightfold Path, and 340 on the jhanas. So, it's not unreasonable to think that most of the Buddhists alive during the time of Buddha never heard the notion of anatta.

Doing a further analysis, the doctrine of anatta was actually mentioned significantly less often when the Buddha had a Brahmin as an interlocutor (across lay Brahmins, wandering Brahmins, and ordained monks who were Brahmins). In 394 discourses that involve named monks who were Brahmin, only 10 monks are aware of the anatta doctrine, and only one sees an atta as being outside the pale of Buddhism. Instead, much of the teachings to Brahmins of all stripes was focused on jhana and the Eightfold path, which were portrayed as the fulfillment of the Vedic path, not a refutation of it.

There is a lot more richness in the analyses, but the author basically provides good reason to think that the Brahmin/Buddhist distinction wasn't originally at all what we pretend it was today and that there were basically distinct canons for distinct audiences. If you know anything about the debates in the Theravada world around concentration and insight, you can see how this dynamic still plays out to this day. Also, [url=" https://www.amazon.com/Atman-Brahman-Ancie

fckw said:
Thanks for the pointer. It's actually worth reading the abstract of said paper (unfortunately, the article itself is behind a paywall):
Joseph Walser said:
When Did Buddhism Become Anti-Brahmanical? The Case of the Missing Soul

Many textbooks for Introduction to Buddhism or World Religions courses treat Buddhism as a competitor of either “Hinduism” or “Brahmanism” by asserting that Buddhism teaches that there is no eternal self or soul and Hinduism teaches that there is. I ask whether these assumptions hold up for one of the earliest sources about Buddhism, the Pali canon. Using statistical analysis of 5,126 suttas or “discourses,” I argue that there is little evidence that the doctrine of soullessness was preached to “convert” representatives of the Brahmanical tradition to Buddhism. On the contrary, it would appear that Brahmin Buddhists had their own canon-within-a-canon that simply avoided the topic of soullessness. Rather than seeing the canon as “what the Buddha taught,” the argument here will present canonicity itself as one of the stakes in a nexus of power where different communities strove to assert their version of Buddhism to be “what the Buddha taught.”

Malcolm wrote:
It's questionable how much influence brahmins had on Buddhism as a whole:

https://www.academia.edu/78151345/Buddhism_in_the_Shadow_of_Brahmanism

https://www.academia.edu/3288088/Greater_Magadha_Studies_in_the_culture_of_early_India


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 3:34 AM
Title: Re: Migon Karpo
Content:
pemachophel said:
Thank youy for your responses. Soma, I have already have received the solkha that is in scribd's. What I was hopimng was some Palyul practitioner who knew something about Migon Karpo beyond this four-line offering prayer. Thank you, Loppon, your response was more what I was looking for, but I'd still like more -- something of Migon Karpo's history, who bound him under oath, etc.

Malcolm wrote:
Mi mgon dkar po is a Bon deity originally, so it seems, but there is only brief mention of this nāga in the Katen, where he is referred to most frequently as phywa rje.

His name does not appear in the Kenjur or Tenjur, other than in the collection of dhāraṇi, and does not appear in in the rNying ma rgyud 'bum either. In the Rinchen Terzod, he mainly appear as a deity in the Namcho and every other reference to him in Nyingma seems to post date that.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 2:23 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


Bapho said:
It seems to me that you misunderstand me in general but it doesn't matter. They really like to do a lot of emphasis on differences.

Malcolm wrote:
The Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra lists 60 wrong views and their teachers, the vehicles of samsara, which can be included under the general headings of eternalism and annihilationism. It then goes on to critique the nine yānas of Buddhism, the vehicle of nirvana.

Why go into such extensive analysis? In order to remove concepts one may not be aware that one holds. From the beginning of the tradition, Dzogchen texts have detailed analysis of nonbuddhist and buddhist doctrines. The fact you are unaware of this indicates you have not idea about Dzogchen at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 1:09 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


Bapho said:
Give me examples of many religions that are firmly dualistic. !

Malcolm wrote:
Samkhya, Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Dualist Śaivism, Vaiṣnavism, Confucism, Shinto, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 12:46 AM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:
DNS said:
Rain in Vegas too, but not as much as California. Also tons of snow in Utah and Colorado, which is actually the largest source of water feeding Lake Mead, when it melts.

Currently Lake Mead is at about 1045 feet (elevation), over 5 feet higher from last summer when it looked like it was going to run dry and now it should only go higher with all the snow in the Rocky mountains.

Malcolm wrote:
Not necessarily, it depends on how long the snow pack lasts and how much evaporates.

https://theconversation.com/snow-can-disappear-straight-into-the-atmosphere-in-hot-dry-weather-162910


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 12th, 2023 at 12:34 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Bapho said:
What has been doing tirelessly Dalai Lama?

Malcolm wrote:
Direct quote from HHDL, "When my Christian friends ask me about emptiness, I tell them it is none of their business."

-- HHDL, Tucson, 2005.

You might find this summary of interest:

https://hettingern.people.cofc.edu/Philosophy_of_Religion/The_Dalai_Lama_Buddhism_and_Christianity.htm


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 11:10 PM
Title: Re: Methods of learning Tibetan spelling
Content:



Punya said:
Any hints or comments would be appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
Type in wylie.

Punya said:
Could you say a little more about how this would help Malcolm?

Malcolm wrote:
it forces you to memorize all the parts of a tibetan word, for example, grub (གྲུབ་པ) as opposed to bsgrub (བསྒྲུབ་པ). To our ears they sound the same, but they are spelled differently and have different meanings. Also learning how to spell out loud helps: for example "ga ra btag shabs kyu gru ba grub or ba'o sa mgo ga ra btag shabs kyu gru ba bsgrub.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 10:36 PM
Title: Re: Consideration on Proceeding
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
you know that you can't reverse the relationship...

Malcolm wrote:
That depends on whether the teacher themselves maintains their samaya. Harming students is an immediate deal breaker, and unlike a student's samaya, a teachers samaya, once broken, cannot be repaired.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 10:33 PM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:
KristenM said:
I keep hearing Led Zeppelin’s “When the Levee Breaks” in my head.

https://water.weather.gov/ahps2/hydrograph.php?wfo=hnx&gage=meec1

Malcolm wrote:
IMG_4570.jpeg (74.2 KiB) Viewed 136 times


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Xango said:
I've heard ChNN say, that there can be people with the knowledge of their state (dzogchen) everywhere, like some shaman in a forgotten place in the jungle. The only difference is, that this person doesn't have a "system", so he can't continue this knowledge properly for his followers.

Kai lord said:
So are those Shamans Pratyekabuddhas?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, they would be. But ChNN also neglected to mention those are only possible when there is no supreme nirmāṇakāya's doctrine in the world.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Bapho said:
Is it [Dzogchen] only accessible to teachers who keep a lineage alive and through a "direct introduction" of the disciple or the student?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Why? It is based on direct perception and not intellectual analysis. Anyone who does not have a teacher of Dzogchen will be absolutely unable to understand this point.

Xango said:
I've heard ChNN say, that there can be people with the knowledge of their state (dzogchen) everywhere, like some shaman in a forgotten place in the jungle. The only difference is, that this person doesn't have a "system", so he can't continue this knowledge properly for his followers.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure, he expressed that opinion, but never pointed to anyone of which it was true or verifiable. People are mostly confused about Advaita, Trika, and Ati because they have a superficial understanding of the term “nondual.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 9:18 PM
Title: Re: Reversing Global Warming - Science and Politics
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
detours.jpg


This is not actually a joke, unfortunately. There aren't many roads (or people, tbh) in the NW quarter of Australia and nearly all of them have been washed out.


Kim

KristenM said:
I’ve been thinking about the Australian floods a lot lately since we’re getting major floods here. I’m two blocks from a mandatory evacuation area and the local creek is about 26-30 feet above its normal levels. It’s really not a little creek but more a tributary of the Merced River that winds itself through Yosemite. And the storms keep coming.

We’ve packed up some things and our valuables in case we need to leave  tonight or this weekend. Last night I came for home from work and was able to jump over the water in the street to get into the house. Thirty minutes later, the whole street was flooding and water starting to come up to our foundation. Luckily our 125 year old house is on a raised foundation so that should help.

Malcolm wrote:
Looks pretty bad where you are, are you both ok?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 11:14 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


stong gzugs said:
By this do you mean people who deny, even at the conventional level, the value of referring to individuals as distinct from each other?

Malcolm wrote:
See my sig.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 10:48 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Bapho said:
Is it [Dzogchen] only accessible to teachers who keep a lineage alive and through a "direct introduction" of the disciple or the student?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. Why? It is based on direct perception and not intellectual analysis. Anyone who does not have a teacher of Dzogchen will be absolutely unable to understand this point.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 8:54 AM
Title: Re: Practices for sick animals
Content:
drodul said:
Are there particular practices that are supposed to be good for particular illnesses of animals?  Would they be the same as for people", e.g. Ta Chag Khyumg Sum against cancers and diseases of the blood?  I have heard that Miyowa practice is good against "diisases of livestock?"  Are cats and dogs "livestock?"  Or best just to recite the Mani mantra for our sick cat?

Malcolm wrote:
They can be included among livestock.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 8:45 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Samkhya, as presented in the Gita, is not a view of dependent origination. Why? Because it presents matter as a mere transformations of three gunas in one substance. So it does not compute.

stong gzugs said:
From the early suttas, I take the core import of dependent origination to be a series of links in a chain that show how ignorance and attachment produce rebirth and suffering, and thus how we can interrupt the chain (various forms of non-attachment and equanimity). In this sense, dependent origination and what the Gita describes have the same core import.

But, from a madhyamaka perspective, I take the core import of dependent origination to be inherent-emptiness. In this case, as the Gita is describing these links as fluctuations of prakriti's guna-qualities, the links don't reduce down to inherent-emptiness, because prakriti can still be taken as a substance that is not inherently empty. Hence dependent origination and what the Gita describes don't have the same core import here. Is this what you're getting at?

Malcolm wrote:
Samkhya and Buddhism begin with the same observation : suffering is produced by ignorance of how things are and liberation Is produced by knowledge of how things are. Where they diverge is in understanding how things are. Samkhya predates the Buddha, and he was knowledgeable in it, according to the Buddhacarita. Samkhya supposes that effects exist in the cause, this can never be compatible with dependent origination, and indeed, the Sarvastivadin interpretation of “everything exists in the three times” was taken to task by the Sautrantikas because it veers dangerously close to Samkhya.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 6:34 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The basic point is that Advaitans, and Hindus in general, reject dependent origination. No Buddhists reject dependent origination

stong gzugs said:
Not sure this is accurate. Although the exact links differ (and, indeed, there are multiple versions of dependent origination in the early suttas), the basic idea of dependent origination is presupposed in Vedanta. For instance, the Bhagavad Gita 2:62-62, traces the links from sense contact to a loss of buddhi and rebirth in samsara:
While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises. From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.
The difference is that vedantins believe there's a self that exists outside the field of "dependent origination" that is fundamentally untouched by it because it's the knower of the field, so we have to distinguish between the field and its knower (i.e., kṣhetra-kṣhetrajña-vibhāga). So, my revised take would be that, Hindus work on dependent origination from the outside (by resting in the atman and witnessing it from that vantage point), whereas early Buddhists describe cutting off its chains from within (and typically deny that there is an "outside").

Malcolm wrote:
Samkhya, as presented in the Gita, is not a view of dependent origination. Why? Because it presents matter as a mere transformations of three gunas in one substance. So it does not compute.

Dependent origination only exists in Buddhadharma.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 6:29 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Bapho said:
I only showed that Atman's description of the perpestive Advaita was similar to the metaphors used in Dzogchen, but they did not like at all. They offended. !!!

Malcolm wrote:
You assume we were not aware of such things. However, we are, and we also understand that these same metaphors are employed in different traditions to make vastly different and incompatible points.

Bapho said:
They seem to only want to defend their supposedly "Buddhist" point of view and dedicate themselves to belittling what it does not agree with his beliefs. They do not cause "ecumenic" exchange ...

Malcolm wrote:
Your mistake was assuming we are interested in ecumenical dialogue. Shankara is rejected by name in the Dzogchen Tantras, along with Kumaraila, Samkhya, and so on.

On the other hand, if you are interested in Dzogchen, then please ask. But don't come around lecturing us.

Bapho said:
I do not pretend to preach about Advaita. I was only looking for "meeting points" but they is not interested ...

Malcolm wrote:
There is no meeting point. Advaita is eternalist, and has a completely different model of, and assumptions about, liberation than Dzogchen teachings.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 5:48 AM
Title: Re: Migon Karpo
Content:
pemachophel said:
I've been trying to find out more about the Protector Migon Karpo, the naga king. Unfortunately, I don't have a way of communicating with the Lama from whom I received this Protector's solkha. Any background information would be appreciated. I haven't been able to find anyrthing much on-line.

Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan spelling?

Toenail said:
Most likely mi gon skar po

Malcolm wrote:
Nah, it's mi mgon dkar po, "The White Protector of Humans." He is listed among the hostile nagas in the klu spang kong.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 5:30 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Bapho said:
The moon is beyond concepts (indicative, signs, metaphors, etc)

Malcolm wrote:
Fundamentally speaking, the Advaita view of the relative is defective, and therefore, their result is defective.

Bapho said:
If you say it ...
Buddhism is the only right path, right? Rather the guru and the sect to which I belong. Obviously speaking always from a relative view...
You did not answer my question about the Atman indications of Advaita Vedanta
(film screen, mirror, glass ball)

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, I did. And yes, Buddhism is the only path which leads to liberation. It's the only path with right view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 5:27 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:


Bapho said:
The only and true enlightened are from Buddhism and the other spiritual currents and religions are false or incorrect. Not?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes and yes.

"In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.[54] Now in this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness. Devoid of true ascetics are the systems of other teachers."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Methods of learning Tibetan spelling
Content:
Punya said:
So I'm muddling along learning some Tibetan words in order to understand the prayers and liturgy chanted in my tradition a little better. But the spelling of Tibetan is not easy. It's not like Spanish where, if you hear the word, you can probably spell it.

I wondering what methods people use to remember the spelling - at least initially - because, after a while, you tend to know what a word looks like. Some words are easy, but for most I usually memorise a short phrase that prompts me as to the spelling. Perhaps it would be easier to just memorise the Wylie for each word, but that would seem to need prompts as well.

Any hints or comments would be appreciated.

Malcolm wrote:
Type in wylie.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 4:15 AM
Title: Re: Migon Karpo
Content:
pemachophel said:
I've been trying to find out more about the Protector Migon Karpo, the naga king. Unfortunately, I don't have a way of communicating with the Lama from whom I received this Protector's solkha. Any background information would be appreciated. I haven't been able to find anyrthing much on-line.

Thanks.

Malcolm wrote:
Tibetan spelling?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 11th, 2023 at 2:05 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Bapho said:
The moon is beyond concepts (indicative, signs, metaphors, etc)

Malcolm wrote:
All kinds of things are beyond concepts. Being beyond concepts, by itself, is not profound.

Fundamentally speaking, the Advaita view of the relative is defective, and therefore, their result is defective.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 10th, 2023 at 11:54 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:
Bapho said:
In Advaita Vedanta, Atman is indicated as similar to a film screen where the movie that appears does not alter the screen at all.
The mirror metaphor and glass ball are also used.

Malcolm wrote:
Advaita also uses the rope snake example. So what?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 10th, 2023 at 11:02 PM
Title: Re: Ngondro with or without empowerment???
Content:


Kai lord said:
You need full empowerment with direct introduction or the fourth empowerment to attain complete Buddhahood as stated in tantras.

Malcolm wrote:
Depends on the tantras. Since this is in the Dzogchen forum, I will simply point out that "direct introduction," a.k.a, the extremely unelaborate empowerment itself is sufficient for ripening.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 8th, 2023 at 8:14 AM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
Terma said:
To this end, I really don't think they concern themselves with all these difference if opinions.

Malcolm wrote:
Sure they do. I can list many instances where Bon teachers and students make absurd historical claims. Fur example, when I met Tenzin Wangyal, he insisted Vajrakiaya originated in Bon. Now personally, I can enjoy Bon narratives because of their cultural context and value as indigenous Tibetan literature. I appreciate ZZNG because of its take on certain aspects of Dzogchen teachings, but when it comes to historical claims, Bonpo historical claims can’t be taken seriously.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 8th, 2023 at 7:38 AM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
Basically Bönpos (not to speak for all Bönpos of course) see Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche as the actual Uttamanirmanakaya; and say that the Buddha Shakyamuni—although a totally Enlightened being himself—was commissioned by Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche to appear in India and play the role of a Uttamanirmanakaya, as to spread Dharma in India. If I follow this correctly:

https://yungdrungbon.co.uk/2022/05/03/tonpa-shenrab-miwo-and-buddha-shakyamuni-brief-discourse-by-yongdzin-rinpoche/

In any case, even if the Buddha Shakyamuni was only pretending be the Uttamanirmanakaya of this eon, it doesn't take away from him being a fully Enlightened Buddha and Dzogchen Master; nor does it take away from there having been Buddhas before Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche who taught Dzogchen.

As I'd posted earlier...^

I personally have no problem considering Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche as the Uttamanirmamakya of the current eon;

Malcolm wrote:
It’s a completely silly idea.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 8th, 2023 at 2:31 AM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
James Sealy said:
Nyingma has roots in Bön Dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
Historically speaking, this is a false statement. There is absolutely no evidence for this assertion. Nor is there any evidence that Bon is a sixteen thousand year old tradition, or even a sixteen hundred year old tradition. At best, it began in the 10th century as a systematic religion.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 7th, 2023 at 10:12 PM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:



James Sealy said:
Well everybody has so his/her Tsawe Lama and all Bönpos have as Dzogchen Yongdzin , Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
That are a lot of Bönpos, i would say so.

But everything, which is based on Tibetan "Buddhism" is valid here, and everything which smells suspicious is wrong.
That is what is going round here, isn´t it ?
Yes,  this is a Buddhist forum, and on a Bön forum we would  have other valid statements, of course...........

Further, the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, has an excellent knowledge about Dharma matters and exceeds here, regarding quality, some prominent "Guru´s" here. He is the highest authority, when i may state that. What Rinpoche states is for all Bönpos a fact, except for non-Bönpos like you are.
Maybe you should listen to your higher inherent Wisdom and do not make discriminations, with the backing of your friends here.

Malcolm wrote:
Matters of history do not depend on the opinions of this or that respected person, rather, they depend on empirical evidence.

James Sealy said:
For Bönpos, they are dependent on the view of the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, for non-Bönpos, on the views of their lineage and adherents, like for instance, your dominant view. Both are venerated by their adherents, a normal case in Tibetan "Buddhism".

Malcolm wrote:
You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

You keep making the same logical error, “arguing from authority.” Buddhists also make this error when they do not distinguish myth from history. Bon myths, like Buddhist myths, are integral their identity as traditions, but this does not render these narratives “history.”

Simply put, the weight of evidence suggests that Bonpos adopted Buddhist systems, wrote their own literature based on Buddhist models in order to compete with Buddhists.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 7th, 2023 at 9:21 PM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
lelopa said:
...

Virgo said:
Ehem..  (clears throat).
James is only convinced by what he thinks is the biggest, holiest, most impressive, authority.  That is why he is impressed by these things, and why he is impressed by his Guru, who is the head of Bon.  This kind of discussion (the kind we have all been having with him) does not work for him.  What he needs to do is hear these things from the mouth of the highest authority in his mind, and only then will he be convinced by this.  And I hope he does that.  Perhaps James should request some teachings?  In his mind, he compares your words to what he perceives as the most magnificent authority, and if they don't appear to line up in his mind then you are by default wrong, because you do not have such authority and therefore must be wrong. This is why is also puts so much weight in the "deeper levels", and long histories, etc.

James may you find all that you need in this holy Dharma...

Virgo
Once again, this phenomena was pointed out by Aristotle 2.5 millennia ago.

People would do well to structure their responses in light of this, rather than endlessly waste their time.

Virgo

James Sealy said:
Well everybody has so his/her Tsawe Lama and all Bönpos have as Dzogchen Yongdzin , Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche.
That are a lot of Bönpos, i would say so.

But everything, which is based on Tibetan "Buddhism" is valid here, and everything which smells suspicious is wrong.
That is what is going round here, isn´t it ?
Yes,  this is a Buddhist forum, and on a Bön forum we would  have other valid statements, of course...........

Further, the Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche, has an excellent knowledge about Dharma matters and exceeds here, regarding quality, some prominent "Guru´s" here. He is the highest authority, when i may state that. What Rinpoche states is for all Bönpos a fact, except for non-Bönpos like you are.
Maybe you should listen to your higher inherent Wisdom and do not make discriminations, with the backing of your friends here.

Malcolm wrote:
Matters of history do not depend on the opinions of this or that respected person, rather, they depend on empirical evidence.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 7th, 2023 at 11:47 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
justsit said:
I was thinking of J.D. Vance, the newly-elected junior US Senator from Ohio and author of "Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis" (2016). He came from a dirt poor Appalachian background, made it to Yale, and is now a rabid R.

The book was very interesting to me, as I was exposed to that milieu for a number of years; it's a pretty accurate representation of the vicious nature of some families. Their blatant self-interest can be the overriding motivator right up until a threatening outsider appears, then they close ranks.

After reading the book I kind of hoped that Vance's exposure to a different culture might be a positive influence, but apparently he hasn't changed a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._D._Vance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillbilly_Elegy

conebeckham said:
If anything, he's moved farther to the right.

PeterC said:
He’s an interesting character.  He’s not stupid.  He has a better understanding of the issues of his people than anyone around him in politics.  So there’s a few possible interpretations of his political affiliation. One is that his emotions are motivating his reasoning.  He feels betrayed by the democrats, because rather than stand up for the working class poor (many of whom are white) they seem to ally with a particular group of white elites and court the votes of the non-white poor.  Another possible explanation is more cynical, that he recognizes that a career in politics begins and ends with gaining and maintaining power, and the republicans simply do that much better than the democrats.  I suspect there’s a bit of truth in both these explanations, but primarily the first one.  The democrats are not the party of the working class white poor.  Nobody is.

Malcolm wrote:
A third explanation is that he is a thrall of Peter Thiel.

Nancy Pelosi was voted speaker 9 times. Don’t see how one can claim the GOP is better at staying in power.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 7th, 2023 at 5:57 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Kai lord said:
Besides all the stated differences, other major difference is that Kalachakra's yoga practices eventually lead to an alchemist purification and transformation of the physical body while the Patanjali's methods only lead to mastery and control of the body.

stong gzugs said:
Yes, thank you, that's exactly what I was referencing to explain why these two "samadhis" are not the same thing, such that Kālacakra cannot reasonably be described as a "dressed up" version of Patanjali.

Natan said:
What does samadhi mean? Sama = same. Dhi = mind. That same mind and this same mind are different same minds?


Malcolm wrote:
samA = level, ting nge

dhi from dhr, holding, maintaining, ‘dzin pa.

The Buddhist gloss then is “Maintaining the level,” literally.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, January 7th, 2023 at 3:26 AM
Title: Re: Ngondro with or without empowerment???
Content:



Lingpupa said:
While true, I think this rather misses the point if I may say so.

Indeed, anyone can do prostrations to any form of the Buddha they like, make offerings and so forth. One might even be tempted to say they should!

But if someone wants to "do a ngondro" for a particular lineage of practice as usually understood - the Karma Kamtsang, Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingtig or any of the many alternatives - it is surely only proper, necessary even, for them to receive the permission and lung from a teacher of that lineage, isn't it?

Otherwise it's like walking around saying, for example, that Mandy Moore is your girlfriend when you only know her from the internet.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha said to no-one ever, “you must ask my permission before you prostrate to me.”

Lingpupa said:
That answer, while obviously true, misses the point of the original question 8n EXACTLY the same way as your previous answer. I shall not, therefore, bother to repeat my comments.

Malcolm wrote:
And I was only addressing Ayu’s comment.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 10:05 PM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:


Kai lord said:
Besides all the stated differences, other major difference is that Kalachakra's yoga practices eventually lead to an alchemist purification and transformation of the physical body while the Patanjali's methods only lead to mastery and control of the body.

Malcolm wrote:
This not true, actually. The purpose of the Yoga Sutra’s method is purify tamas, then rajas, so the sattvic yogin can now realize that (inanimate) buddhi just reflects purusha, and enters Kaivaliya, resting directly as purusha. The Yoga Sutra faults those who merely try to refine Prakrit (I.e Buddhists, etc.).


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 9:28 PM
Title: Re: Ngondro with or without empowerment???
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
...
One does not need any transmission to do prostrations

Lingpupa said:
While true, I think this rather misses the point if I may say so.

Indeed, anyone can do prostrations to any form of the Buddha they like, make offerings and so forth. One might even be tempted to say they should!

But if someone wants to "do a ngondro" for a particular lineage of practice as usually understood - the Karma Kamtsang, Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingtig or any of the many alternatives - it is surely only proper, necessary even, for them to receive the permission and lung from a teacher of that lineage, isn't it?

Otherwise it's like walking around saying, for example, that Mandy Moore is your girlfriend when you only know her from the internet.

Malcolm wrote:
The Buddha said to no-one ever, “you must ask my permission before you prostrate to me.”


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 9:23 PM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
But more interestingly, if you're saying that Patanjali's samadhi and Kālacakra samadhi .I

Malcolm wrote:
Samadhi is incapable of producing awakening. Awakening is produced by view.


Sādhaka said:
Interest, diligence, meditation, samadhi, and prajna.

Malcolm wrote:
You left out mindfulness: should be faith, diligence, mindfulness, samadhi, and prajna.

“All realization proceeds from view.”
—Aryadeva, 400 Verses.

Without right view, the five faculties you mention above are rudderless.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 9:19 PM
Title: Re: Samten Migdron translation due soon
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
That said, still looking forward to his translation, even if it lacks evidence based equivalents.

not_z said:
What do you mean by “evidence based” translation Malcolm? What is the “evidence” here?

Malcolm wrote:
Justified on the basis of commentarial exegesis.

For example, it is well known that sems nyid is a contraction of sems kyi chos  nyid, cittadharmata. Dharmata is a well known term, not sure how one derives “beingness.” Even if one were to take sems nyid as cittata, still essence (ta) of mind, or mind essence, seems more apt. But all this is unimportant, provided people know the underlying Tibetan term and can read through the glosses without getting hung up on the English.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 10:02 AM
Title: Re: Samten Migdron translation due soon
Content:



kunsel said:
I imagine Alpha is being presented here I think in a Christian context of Alpha and Omega - 'begining and end' and also conflating two alphabets ka to a and a to z. You are quite right about alpha having no connection to ka nas.  I believe the vi in vishuddha is cognate for whence in English.

Norwegian said:
What other original translation choices has Esler gone for in this publication?

kunsel said:
There are many for which there could be alternatives, bdag nyid chen po (integral being), rigpa (awareness), sems nyid (mind's beingness)

Malcolm wrote:
“Beingness” is just wrong altogether. “Being” is an extreme view in Buddha dharma. Plus, there is no doubt that Dzogchen is antifoundationalist.

That said, still looking forward to his translation, even if it lacks evidence based equivalents.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 9:37 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
stong gzugs said:
But more interestingly, if you're saying that Patanjali's samadhi and Kālacakra samadhi .I

Malcolm wrote:
Samadhi is incapable of producing awakening. Awakening is produced by view.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 6:56 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:


stong gzugs said:
If you don't see a difference between Patanjali's samadhi of stilling citta-vritti (thought fluctuations) and Kālacakra samadhi's of inner fire melting white drops, I don't know what to say.

Malcolm wrote:
The purpose of candali yoga is precisely the cessation of the transformations/movements of citta ((cittavrttinirodha), that is the cessation of the eighty coarse concepts


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 6:52 AM
Title: Re: Samten Migdron translation due soon
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
Especially since Mipham glasses it simply as vishuddha, and how is alpha even a remote calque for “ka nas”?

kunsel said:
I imagine Alpha is being presented here I think in a Christian context of Alpha and Omega - 'begining and end' and also conflating two alphabets ka to a and a to z. You are quite right about alpha having no connection to ka nas.  I believe the vi in vishuddha is cognate for whence in English.

Norwegian said:
What other original translation choices has Esler gone for in this publication?

Malcolm wrote:
Original, primordial, etc., the usual choices. Alpha pure is a Trungpaism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 6:39 AM
Title: Re: Samten Migdron translation due soon
Content:
kunsel said:
I once used Tony Duff's ka dag translation 'alpha-purity' as Dylan does here in this  text as it seemed to fit the term literally,

Malcolm wrote:
Especially since Mipham glasses it simply as vishuddha, and how is alpha even a remote calque for “ka nas”?

kunsel said:
I imagine Alpha is being presented here I think in a Christian context of Alpha and Omega - 'begining and end' and also conflating two alphabets ka to a and a to z. You are quite right about alpha having no connection to ka nas.  I believe the vi in vishuddha is cognate for whence in English.

Malcolm wrote:
The Xian reference is enough to cancel it permanently, in my book. As for vi, normally, vi = rnam par. I don’t see any evidence for a vi- / whence connection.

Anyway, as I often remark it will be 100:years before there is a standardized lexicon for dzogchen in English. I have hopes it will be evidence-based, but I don’t see a lot of movement in this direction yet, but baby steps.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: Samten Migdron translation due soon
Content:
kunsel said:
I once used Tony Duff's ka dag translation 'alpha-purity' as Dylan does here in this  text as it seemed to fit the term literally,

Malcolm wrote:
Especially since Mipham glasses it simply as vishuddha, and how is alpha even a remote calque for “ka nas”?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 4:29 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Definitely pre-Kalacakra, as it was translated Shraddhakavarmin and Rinchen Zangpo.

stong gzugs said:
Thank you!

When you mentioned earlier the sadangayoga of the Sakyapas is that Kālacakra/Jordruk?

Malcolm wrote:
No, it is from Go Khugpa Lhatse, connected with Guhyasamaja, AFAIK.

stong gzugs said:
And is there any information on Rongzom's view of the sadangayoga that you know of, outside of his Entering the Way of the Great Vehicle?

Malcolm wrote:
Not as far as I know.


stong gzugs said:
So the Guhyasamāja would then seem to be the earliest Buddhist version of the sadangayoga,

Malcolm wrote:
Yes. But it would be going too far to say it owed nothing to the Yoga Sutras, just  as it would be going too far to say the Yoga Sutras owed nothing to Buddhism.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 3:42 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:


stong gzugs said:
The six-limb yoga is also in the Buddhist Guhyasamāja Uttara-Tantra. (I don't know its most reliable dating, as it's clearly an addition beyond the root tantra, and whether it was influenced by the Kālacakra or the other way around.

Malcolm wrote:
Definitely pre-Kalacakra, as it was translated Shraddhakavarmin and Rinchen Zangpo.

https://buddhanature.tsadra.org/index.php/People/%C5%9Araddh%C4%81karavarman


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 2:30 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
KM lost round seven…


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, January 6th, 2023 at 1:45 AM
Title: Re: Samten Migdron translation due soon
Content:
kunsel said:
Some of Dylan's terminology is very much his own style - the auditors translation of nyan thos is very much an accurate translation of 'those who hear, especially an audience' - not my choice but there it is. Other terminology is either to one's taste or not e.g. bdag nyid chen po as 'integral being' etc.


Malcolm wrote:
Personally, I am very much looking forward to this translation. Many people will surprised to discover that, according to  Nubchen, Vimalamitra passed away in Tibet.

Everyone has their preferred lexicon, and while nyan thos is “evidence-based,” it sounds funny to Americans, because here “auditors” are people who examine financial records looking for fraud, etc.

I am surprised you received the lung, since ChNN said there wasn’t one. But lungs can be revived.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 10:06 PM
Title: Re: Ngondro with or without empowerment???
Content:
Ayu said:
I have no idea how strictly or individually different this question is being handled in Dzogchen.
I just can tell, that I started e. g. prostrations without lung or any instructions. This was like testing the practice. I tried to understand what's it all about.
But after I received instructions and a kind of blessing, the whole project recieved much better motivation, power and protection. I developed a kind of stubbornness for just doing it, no matter what.

Malcolm wrote:
One does not need any transmission to do prostrations


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 9:48 PM
Title: Re: Natural State and the individual state
Content:



haha said:
Nagarjuna was focused on union of appearance and emptiness aspect whereas Chadrakirti was focused on emptiness aspect.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s a misunderstanding, whoever made that assertion did not read Madhyamaka-avatara.

haha said:
I am out of opinion on somebody's assertion but can provide some references.

One reference:
There is a slight difference in the prasangika madhyamaka taught by Nagarjuna and that taught by Chandrakirti. What is this difference? Glorious Chandrakirti stressed mainly the emptiness aspect, teaching the view of dharmadhatu in which everything is realized to be of the nature of emptiness.

Further in same passage,

Chandrakirti's emphasis on emptiness and Nagarjuna's emphasis on appearance, taken together, are the inseparability of appearance and emptiness.

Khyentse, Dilgo; Jinba Palmo, Ani, (1999), Primordial Purity, pp 28-29

Malcolm wrote:
Sorry, I can’t agree with this opinion at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 10:57 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Genjo Conan said:
...Everyone knew this Congress wasn't going to do shit, but this Congress really isn't going to do shit.  It's all very funny, in a "the country is so broken you've gotta laugh" kind of way.

Kim O'Hara said:
That's more or less what it looks like from this distance, too, and it's pretty sad.

As soon as there's a system, someone will start working out how to game it. Is it possible that the US political system has been in place long enough for the gamers to make it completely disfunctional? If so, I'm going to worry about our own system, which is just a bit younger than yours.

The other possbility is that it was put together in such a way that eventual gridlock was almost inevitable. In that case I don't need to worry so much, because a lot of your trouble comes from the executive power of the President and our head of state is an almost purely ceremonial role.


Kim

Malcolm wrote:
In 1856,it took Congress 133 votes and two months to elect a speaker, we are only on day two…


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 10:30 AM
Title: Re: Natural State and the individual state
Content:
haha said:
Even Nyingma master said that Nagarjuna emptiness and Chandrakirti emptiness are different (i.e. their focus aspect).

Malcolm wrote:
If they did, they were mistaken. There is nowhere in Nagarjuna or Aryadeva where they use formal syllogisms to prove emptiness. Candra’s main project is defending Buddhapalita from Bhavya’s assertion that the latter did not adequately flesh out his refutation of Samkhya, in addition to taking Bhavya to task for poor exegesis of pratityasamutpada, etc.

haha said:
Nagarjuna was focused on union of appearance and emptiness aspect whereas Chadrakirti was focused on emptiness aspect.

Malcolm wrote:
That’s a misunderstanding, whoever made that assertion did not read Madhyamaka-avatara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 5:46 AM
Title: Re: Back in the USA...
Content:
Kim O'Hara said:
The USA seems to be stuck in a *new* kind of gridlock -
GOP’s Kevin McCarthy fails to secure majority in US House – again

...Without a speaker, new lawmakers – elected in the midterms in November – cannot be sworn in; they still hold the title of representative-elect. ...

“The Republican Party in the House is deeply divided, and they have a number of members who not only don’t like their party’s nominee for speaker, but are willing to block that nominee on the floor – and in doing so, break a norm that has been followed for a century,” said Matthew Green, a professor of politics at Catholic University in Washington, DC.

Many Democrats have argued that the early crisis for the new House majority shows Republicans’ inability to lead.

“The problem is…this isn’t just today. This is going to be everyday in the House Republican majority,” Democratic Senator Chris Murphy wrote on Twitter on Tuesday.

“It’s not just that they won’t be able to govern. It’s that they are going to be an embarrassing public train wreck while they refuse to govern.”
That's from Al Jazeera - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/4/us-house-impasse-biden-urges-republicans-to-get-act-together. What's the local view?


Kim


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 5:20 AM
Title: Re: Ethics of Launching an OnlyFans
Content:
MiphamFan said:
What do you think are the ethics of launching and running an OnlyFans business?

Basically it would involve posting nudes, interacting with the fans.

These kind of parasocial relationships are not that healthy for the fans, especially if they are using it as a substitute for real relationships. But maybe some people are really lonely in this modern world and it helps them feel connected.

What do you think?

Malcolm wrote:
It creates incels with unrealistic expectations of women, but whatever…


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 5:10 AM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
stong gzugs said:
Does anyone have a copy or know how to get a copy of Huifeng's "Old School Emptiness: Hermeneutics, Criticism, and Tradition in the Narrative of Śūnyatā" which is cited positively many times in this letter? I can't seem to find any real traces of it online.

Malcolm wrote:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-the-school-of-oriental-and-african-studies/article/abs/shi-huifeng-old-school-emptiness-hermeneutics-criticism-and-tradition-in-the-narrative-of-sunyata-xviii-326-pp-kaohsiung-fo-guang-cultural-enterprise-2016-isbn-978-957-457-399-8/D3CC7D8505E9A377DD14B3933C18FB8E


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 4:17 AM
Title: Re: Natural State and the individual state
Content:
haha said:
Even Nyingma master said that Nagarjuna emptiness and Chandrakirti emptiness are different (i.e. their focus aspect).

Malcolm wrote:
If they did, they were mistaken. There is nowhere in Nagarjuna or Aryadeva where they use formal syllogisms to prove emptiness. Candra’s main project is defending Buddhapalita from Bhavya’s assertion that the latter did not adequately flesh out his refutation of Samkhya, in addition to taking Bhavya to task for poor exegesis of pratityasamutpada, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 4:05 AM
Title: Re: Samten Migdron translation due soon
Content:
Pero said:
Is "auditors" for shravakas a common translation? I thought it wasn't the first time I saw it (Wilkinson) but maybe it's because I don't read enough.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s an overly literal translation of snyan thos, I.e shravakas.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, January 5th, 2023 at 2:43 AM
Title: Re: Samten Migdron translation due soon
Content:
jet.urgyen said:
Does require oral transmission?

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn’t exist.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 4th, 2023 at 11:44 PM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:


Passing By said:
Yes, I am aware of Bon Dzogchen termas which clearly incorporate their Nyingma cousins also, but I am more interested in the older ZZNG. The history of early Mengagde is just pretty ill defined in general.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s pretty well defined, but the dates are the issue.

The snyan brgyud is supposed to provide the bridge between Nyang Tingzin Zangpo and Dangma Lhungyal.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 4th, 2023 at 10:21 PM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Do they share the same Scriptures?

Are the teachings similar/same?

Malcolm wrote:
The Bonpo Dzogchen tradition demonstrably depends on the Buddhist tradition. That said, Bon Dzogchen has its own tantras, traditions, and so on, and rightfully deserves to be considered an independent tradition.

Passing By said:
What do you think is the relationship between the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud and the 17 Tantras? You mentioned in your intro to the Blazing Lamp Tantra that Longchenpa likely received the Six Lamps and that he incorporated it into his writings for example. I am wondering whether the 17 Tantras were derived from the ZZNG, or vice versa, or they both developed in tandem as a result of a contemporary revolution of ideas in the Tibetan yogic community at that time.

Malcolm wrote:
I didn’t say it was a fact, I said it was a possibility. There is an snyan brgyud in Man ngag sde which also uses a scheme of six lamps, and has similar terminology. Then there is the fact that the tantras this snyan brgyud are related to, such as the thig le kun gsal, describe the smooth white nadi, and so on., terminology absent in the 17. The snyan brgyud lineage splits from the 17 tantra lineage with Chetsun, who gave the snyan brgyud to Shongpa Repa, while he passed the 17 on to Chegom Nagpo. These two lineages were reunited in Kumaraja, who passed them onto Longchenpa, who systematized them in the Lama Yangtik and the Zabmo Yangtik. My present belief is that the six lamps system was borrowed into ZZNG after Chetsun.

Also ZZNG uses once the Indian term, brighatu, which is found in the 17 several times.

Dating dzogchen adeherents between the 9th and 11th century is a chore, since dzogchen was suppressed by decrees of such people as Yeshe ‘od, etc.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 4th, 2023 at 10:03 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:



Passing By said:
So, the basis is a blank canvas that karma plays out on to give rise to everything, in conjunction with said blank canvas' ability to cognize and perceive stuff. Can it be said like that?

Then my question would be, is it possible in dzogchen, for practitioners, this illusory self that is now the current manifestation of the day, to control how the next display that arises will be? For example, if I am dreaming one night and I decide I would like to continue the story of that dream the next night, a skilled lucid dreamer can do so. Can a dzogchen practitioner do the same for their subsequent life? Such as if they decide they have unfinished business with people whom they have connection with in this life and would like to continue to see that story through.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is true for any Buddhist, actually. The Buddha discusses this in the Pali canon.

Passing By said:
So you don't actually need to be a highly realized person in order to dictate to a certain extent how your future life and the connections to people in said life will be?

Malcolm wrote:
Correct. You just have to cultivate virtue.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, January 4th, 2023 at 10:00 AM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
Harimoo said:
Dzogchen is a tibetan thing.

Malcolm wrote:
No, this is false.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 10:49 PM
Title: Re: Is this a Shentong explanation ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The two truths are not different isolates. They are different cognitions of any given object.

stong gzugs said:
I'm unsure whether you're (1) disagreeing with Hopkins' language, (2) disagreeing that Hopkins has correctly portrayed Tsongkhapa's opinion, or (3) giving your own opinion on the proper relation between the two truths. If it's either of the first two options, I'd be curious to hear more. Hopkins is (accurately, as far as I can tell) describing Tsongkhapa's view as saying the two truths are the same thing ontologically (ngo bo gcig) but different conceptually (ldog pa tha dad), where "ldog pa tha dad" is what he translates as "different isolates." Dölpopa views the relation of the two truths instead as different in terms of negating an identity (gcig pa bkag pa’i tha dad). It's not straightforward or unanimous among various schools how to understand the relation of the two truths, and Gorampa takes the same view as Dölpopa (gcig pa bkag pa’i tha dad) as he sees them in terms of two different modes of cognition. So if your comment is the third option, I'll bow out of further debate on this point, as I don't think we'll sort out here the "one right way" of understanding the relation between the two truths.

Malcolm wrote:
All entities have two natures, according to Candrakirti, one relative, the other ultimate. These two natures are the objects of veridical and nonveridical cognitions. So for example a given phenomena can be perceived nonveridically as arising, abiding, and ceasing; or veridically as nonarising, nonabiding, and nonceasing. All the faults of samsara are effortlessly produced through the former cognition, all the qualities of nirvana are effortlessly produced through the latter cognition. The polemical opinions of Tibetan scholars on this point don’t really matter very much. The above statement is the irrefutable position of great Madhyamaka. In this way the two truths are absolutely inseparable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 11:45 AM
Title: Re: Is this a Shentong explanation ?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
The two truths are not entities in and of themselves, rather, they are objects of cognition, veridical or nonveridical cognitions respectively.

stong gzugs said:
Yes, yes, Dölpopa is aware of this, as am I.

Malcolm wrote:
The two truths are not different isolates. They are different cognitions of any given object.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 7:26 AM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
tingdzin said:
Yes. If one decides to simply accept the traditional views of either Nyingmapa or Bonpo lineages, it is pointless to get into historical arguments. If one wants to get into historical arguments with people who have different ideas, one must thoroughly study the matter from an unbiased perspective, and not just repeat from "authoritative" sources.

Malcolm wrote:
The fact is that earliest literary mention of Shenrab we have is a Bon ritual text, where he appears among other ritualists.

Other than that, the first bio of him, the mdo ‘dus, was revealed by Shenchen Luga in the early 11th century. The other two bios, zer mig and gzi brjid, are much later termas. While they certainly frame a narrative of a prehistorical, mythological Shenrab, the idea that these tell the story of a actual historical person is absurd, with no more credibility than the exaggerated narratives concerning Garab Dorje, Manjushrimitra, Shri Simha, and Vimalamitra. The difference however, is that we have firm historical evidence for three of these four persons.

Of course we have no evidence for the Buddhas prior to Shakyamuni other than mentions of them in the Pali Canon, etc., datable, as we know to around 100 BCE. So, while I am happy to concede that historical evidence apparently has no impact on tendencies of Bonpos to make ahistorical claims, just as we do, when it comes to history, we need to rely on empirical evidence, and that is entirely lacking for most Bon historical claims, unlike Buddhist claims.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Tuesday, January 3rd, 2023 at 6:03 AM
Title: Re: Is this a Shentong explanation ?
Content:
James Sealy said:
Is this a  Shentong  explanation ?

"The genuine ultimate is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the genuine ultimate.
The ultimate Buddha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Buddha.
The ultimate Dharma is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Dharma.
The ultimate Sangha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Sangha.
The ultimate refuge is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate refuge.
Ultimate pristine awareness is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate pristine awareness."

stong gzugs said:
Yes, it is a gzhanstong statement. Dölpopa offers plenty such statements throughout his writing.

James Sealy said:
Explanation by: Acharya  Pema Tsewang

Shentong views the two truths doctrine as distinguishing between relative and absolute reality,
Agreeing that relative reality is empty of self-nature, but stating that absolute reality is "empty" only of "other" relative phenomena, but is itself not empty.
This absolute reality is the "ground or substratum" which is "uncreated and indestructible, non-composite and beyond the chain of dependent origination."
Dolpopa identifies this absolute reality,  with the Buddha nature.

Then Buddha Nature has  an "Identity" and never a boring "self".

stong gzugs said:
I was generally with this until the line about "identity." I'm not sure what that means. Dölpopa uses the term "self" at times in ways that are entirely consistent with the buddha nature sutras (like the Mahaparinirvana Sutra), but I don't know what it means for buddha nature to have an "identity." It does have positive qualities, but that isn't an identity.
The view quoted above is an extreme view and is seriously flawed. The two truths are inseparable.

The relationship of the two truths is a bit more complex for Dölpopa. It's wrong to say that you can't differentiate between the ultimate and conventional, as there clearly is some difference between the two, such that they are not the same entity.

Malcolm wrote:
The two truths are not entities in and of themselves, rather, they are objects of cognition, veridical or nonveridical cognitions respectively.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 2nd, 2023 at 11:07 PM
Title: Re: Natural State and the individual state
Content:
James Sealy said:
Conclusion:

We change then that boring "SELF" with IDENTITY

Malcolm wrote:
That also doesn’t work.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 2nd, 2023 at 9:34 PM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:


Malcolm wrote:
Your list of names is quite late In its composition.

Like Taoists, bonpos will always make these claims trying to prove their tradition is older, but when examined, there were many buddhas who lived prior to Shenrab, who also taught ati yoga, Kashyapa Buddha being one of them.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, January 2nd, 2023 at 9:24 PM
Title: Re: Is this a Shentong explanation ?
Content:
James Sealy said:
Is this a  Shentong  explanation ?

"The genuine ultimate is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the genuine ultimate.
The ultimate Buddha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Buddha.
The ultimate Dharma is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Dharma.
The ultimate Sangha is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate Sangha.
The ultimate refuge is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate refuge.
Ultimate pristine awareness is not self empty. If it is self empty, it is not the ultimate pristine awareness."

================================
Explanation by: Acharya  Pema Tsewang

Yeah, I think that the above stanza try to explain the view of the Shentong or the other-emptiness. Shentong views the two truths doctrine as distinguishing between relative and absolute reality,
Agreeing that relative reality is empty of self-nature, but stating that absolute reality is "empty" only of "other" relative phenomena, but is itself not empty.
This absolute reality is the "ground or substratum" which is "uncreated and indestructible, non-composite and beyond the chain of dependent origination."
Dolpopa identifies this absolute reality,  with the Buddha nature.

Then Buddha Nature has  an "Identity" and never a boring "self".

Malcolm wrote:
The view quoted above is an extreme view and is seriously flawed. The two truths are inseparable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, January 1st, 2023 at 3:07 AM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
tingdzin said:
I never made the claims you are attributing to me. Please do not go off half-cocked.

Malcolm wrote:
I never said you made this claim. Others have, however.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 31st, 2022 at 9:27 PM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
tingdzin said:
This is not a question that can be answered briefly or simply.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a simple answer, which I provided above.

The rest is details about the conversation about Dzogchen amongst its various adherents, from the 11th century onward.

tingdzin said:
be aware that any simple answer that you get is likely to reflect a partial view.

Malcolm wrote:
Anyone who does not acknowledge that there was no Bon school at all before Buddhism arrived in Tibet is simply hanging on to sectarian anachronisms. The historical record is pretty clear. The Bon tradition has its unique traditions and texts, it has value and deserves respect, as I said before, but apart from the Nyan bum, and some other texts, virtually nothing in yundrung Bon represents an indigenous tradition which evolved independently of subcontinental Buddhism’s arrival in Tibet, including Dzogchen.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 31st, 2022 at 9:48 AM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
tingdzin said:
This is not a question that can be answered briefly or simply.

Malcolm wrote:
There is a simple answer, which I provided above.

The rest is details about the conversation about Dzogchen amongst its various adherents, from the 11th century onward.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 31st, 2022 at 9:11 AM
Title: Re: Prajnaparamita and Bodhisattva career in Bon?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
They were not texts, they were orally transmitted verses.


Sādhaka said:
Of course, I knew that the ZhangZhung Nyengyud started as a Kama tradition. I just didn't really put it to thought as I was typing my post. Nevertheless, they were eventually written.

Perhaps we can deduce then that the Twelve Small Tantras and the ZhangZhung Nyengyud, had a complete Path from the very beginning; and that when the Twelve Small Tantras were first written down, there was much more to Bönpo Dzogchen than that, and, for whatever reason, the one(s) who first wrote the Twelve Small Tantras did not yet want to unveil any more than that at the time....

Malcolm wrote:
ChNN asserted that most of ZZNG is quite late. It’s origins, however, are far less interesting than its content. Most Bonpo teachings, 95 percent, are post 1000 CE.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 31st, 2022 at 8:52 AM
Title: Re: Do Nyingma and Bon Dzogchen share the same origin?
Content:
Nalanda said:
Do they share the same Scriptures?

Are the teachings similar/same?

Malcolm wrote:
The Bonpo Dzogchen tradition demonstrably depends on the Buddhist tradition. That said, Bon Dzogchen has its own tantras, traditions, and so on, and rightfully deserves to be considered an independent tradition.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 31st, 2022 at 4:43 AM
Title: Re: Asa HershoffS Vajrayana "Inside Scoop"
Content:
treehuggingoctopus said:
His Lama Jinpa business is still very much functioning. He keeps posting there, as Lama Jinpa, on TB matters: https://www.tibetanchod.com/blog/

If he does that despite him no longer identifying as Buddhist, despite him being explicit in his rejection of some core Vajrayana tenets -- seriously, why do any of us pay any attention to his claims?

I mean, there are many possible changes of heart. And then there is dishonesty.

Malcolm wrote:
His light body series is a hilarious series of misconceptions.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 31st, 2022 at 4:13 AM
Title: Re: Prajnaparamita and Bodhisattva career in Bon?
Content:
Sādhaka said:
yet with only one set of texts that explains the correct Dzogchen View, yet no path to actualize it....

Malcolm wrote:
They were not texts, they were orally transmitted verses.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 30th, 2022 at 11:12 PM
Title: Re: Asa HershoffS Vajrayana "Inside Scoop"
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Other than Asa’s questionable comments, why are we wasting bandwidth on a worldly path?


Author: Malcolm
Date: Friday, December 30th, 2022 at 9:23 AM
Title: Re: Asa HershoffS Vajrayana "Inside Scoop"
Content:
climb-up said:
Ian Baker has said that Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche encouraged him to learn Hindu hatha yoga if that was his interest, because that was a more developed system.

Malcolm wrote:
Of course, we now know that Hatha yoga began as a Buddhist system.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 29th, 2022 at 10:44 PM
Title: Re: Nature of Mind
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
In Dzogchen teaching, the alaya is the knowledge obscuration, and it’s nature is ignorance. It’s only completely eliminated at full buddhahood.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 29th, 2022 at 9:03 PM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
akuppa said:
Does Indic even matter? Academics probably paint a more complicated picture of the history of Buddhism in India anyway. Its not as if Indic can be used as shorthand for "coming from the historical Buddha" anymore (from an academic pov).

Malcolm wrote:
Subcontinental.

Not even Indians necessarily claimed everything came from the historical Buddha
, for example, Cakrasamvara.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 29th, 2022 at 10:43 AM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
All authentic Buddhism is demonstrably rooted in India,

tingdzin said:
This is almost a tautology; since Buddha was born there, almost anything in the Buddhist tradition ultimately goes back to India..

Would you not consider the Huayan philosophers real Buddhists, since they expressed themselves in language which is neither Indic nor easily back-translated into Indic, and their ideas are completely new to the Buddhist tradition?

Or Dzogchen man ngag scriptures, which clearly contain language which cannot be back-translated?

Or Dogen's work?

Malcolm wrote:
All of their ideas can be reasonably predicated on Indic sources.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 29th, 2022 at 9:10 AM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:


tingdzin said:
I am with Keith in thinking it doesn't make any difference where the Heart Sutra was composed, but there is an entire edifice built on "all authentic Buddhism came from India", which had and has supporters in both China and Tibet, and to which challenges are either ignored or suppressed.

Malcolm wrote:
All authentic Buddhism is demonstrably rooted in India, this is also noncontroversial, Osborne’s paper shows admirably how the Heart Sutra is rooted in Indic sources, despite on ostensible “Chinese” origin.

tingdzin said:
The historical reasons for that are tied into motivations of authenticity and so power politics, so it's not always a trivial question.



Malcolm wrote:
I can understand this point, but this isn’t about Dharma. Atwood is playing the same power/authenticity game, in reality, but with far less sincerity.

tingdzin said:
Attwood is just frustrated by that, I think.

Malcolm wrote:
All the guy has ever done Is just ride on the work of others, kind of like a lamprey. He hasn’t done a bit of original work in his life, nor a translation of any significance at all.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 29th, 2022 at 4:20 AM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
akuppa said:
So having read the whole thing, it seems to me that the more interesting and controversial idea is that prajñāpāpramitā in general has nothing to do with madhyamaka.

Malcolm wrote:
This is also noncontroversial, considering that the PP sutras have both Madhyamaka and Yogacara interpretations.

akuppa said:
I presume that the Yogacara interpretation doesn't involve cession of sensory experience though?

Malcolm wrote:
It also involves cessation of sensory experience.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 29th, 2022 at 3:10 AM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
akuppa said:
So having read the whole thing, it seems to me that the more interesting and controversial idea is that prajñāpāpramitā in general has nothing to do with madhyamaka.

Malcolm wrote:
This is also noncontroversial, considering that the PP sutras have both Madhyamaka and Yogacara interpretations.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Thursday, December 29th, 2022 at 12:52 AM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
akuppa said:
Do posters here think there is any validity to his claim of essentially being ignored? Or the reasons for it?

Malcolm wrote:
His work isn’t ignored, it’s just not very original or interesting.

Given that Osborne plausibly fleshes out Nattier’s contention that the original text is an extract of a Chinese translation of the PP in 25k Lines, and was back translated into Sanskrit, we have an example of a text that was extracted from a reliable source. Such an extract would be called in Tibetan a “lung.”

Osborn’s paper:

https://academia.edu/resource/work/8275423


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 28th, 2022 at 11:40 PM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
KeithA said:
I found it interesting, up to this point, then it all goes south, for me:
If the Heart Sutra was composed in China, then a lot of powerful and influential Buddhist figures —including the Dalai Lama and the late Thich Nhat Hanh—are potentially exposed as fallible.
Does the author really think this would turn Buddhism on it’s head?

Maybe in Asia. Or, maybe in the world of academia. But, it wouldn’t matter a bit to me if I found out the Heart Sutra was mostly, or even entirely, composed in China. Why would it matter?


Keith

Malcolm wrote:
It doesn’t.

Indians accepted it as authentic, there are numerous Indian commentaries, beginning with Kamalashila’s and concluding with Atisha’s.

The idea that Buddhist leaders ought to be infallible is facially ridiculous. We are not Catholics and HHDL is not the pope.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 28th, 2022 at 10:37 PM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
tingdzin said:
Well, until I see some concrete responses to his arguments, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. There's a willful ignorance about a lot of things that goes on even among repected academics.

Malcolm wrote:
It’s really not about his arguments…but even so, there are problems with his approach, for example, his willfully ignoring Wongchuk’s reference to an earlier translation and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Wednesday, December 28th, 2022 at 9:31 PM
Title: Re: A valid voice crying in the wilderness
Content:
tingdzin said:
He has posted here several times, but usually with the response he describes.An_Open_Letter_to_Buddhist_Studies_Acade.pdf

Malcolm wrote:
It’s understandable.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Monday, December 26th, 2022 at 9:42 PM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:



Täpa said:
Think i just got an aha moment because of this. When i first got in touch with spirituality i got the books from Eckhart Tolle and afterwards some books on advaita vedanta and following satsangs on youtube. The i or ego is very stigmatized by ET and AV. It is the biggest culprit according to them and must be banished. So i got " brainwashed" and i unconsciously mix/projected it on dzogchen. If i think about it i cannot really recall dzogchen to be so talkative about the ego, it just says to not grasp or reject any phenomena. So probably this also goes with the ego, to let things be as it is, no grasping or aversion/not accepting or rejecting. If this is correct what i say, than it is a fundamental difference in practice between contemporary non duality circles and dzogchen.

Malcolm wrote:
People have fetishized anatman to an impractical degree.

Innate self-grasping is the cause of samsara, suffering, and every thing else, but the solution to this is not an intellectual rejection of conventional truth. It’s is to reflect deeply on dependent origination and penetrate it’s true meaning. For that, the Rice Seedling Sutra is exemplary: https://read.84000.co/translation/toh210.html#UT22084-062-010-section-1

When you read and understand this, you will understand why the basis is personal, why it is not a self, and why dependent origination is natural perfection.

Passing By said:
So, the basis is a blank canvas that karma plays out on to give rise to everything, in conjunction with said blank canvas' ability to cognize and perceive stuff. Can it be said like that?

Then my question would be, is it possible in dzogchen, for practitioners, this illusory self that is now the current manifestation of the day, to control how the next display that arises will be? For example, if I am dreaming one night and I decide I would like to continue the story of that dream the next night, a skilled lucid dreamer can do so. Can a dzogchen practitioner do the same for their subsequent life? Such as if they decide they have unfinished business with people whom they have connection with in this life and would like to continue to see that story through.

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is true for any Buddhist, actually. The Buddha discusses this in the Pali canon.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 25th, 2022 at 5:31 AM
Title: Re: Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen
Content:



Malcolm wrote:
People have fetishized anatman to an impractical degree.

Innate self-grasping is the cause of samsara, suffering, and every thing else, but the solution to this is not an intellectual rejection of conventional truth. It’s is to reflect deeply on dependent origination and penetrate it’s true meaning. For that, the Rice Seedling Sutra is exemplary: https://read.84000.co/translation/toh210.html#UT22084-062-010-section-1

When you read and understand this, you will understand why the basis is personal, why it is not a self, and why dependent origination is natural perfection.

Täpa said:
Thanks for all your input. I have to study and make a new start from today in practice because of the things that came up in this topic.

Jules 09 said:
You might find it interesting to read stanza's 1.59,1.60 and 1.61 of the above mentioned sutra.

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh210.html#UT22084-062-010-section-1


Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this is why I advised him/her to read the whole sūtra. It quite short, and very clear.

No one is in bondage, and yet there is bondage. No one is liberated, and yet there is liberation. No one has a basis, and yet there is a basis. No one has a path, and yet there is a path. No one has a result, and yet there is a result.

The self is an entity which is designated dependent on parts. Just like the term "basis," "path," "result." These things are all conventions, which is why we can say the basis is personal, because these are conventional terms. Conventions function. There is no point is discussing such a thing as the basis unless there is some function being described.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 25th, 2022 at 5:24 AM
Title: Re: Yeshi’s back
Content:
Tata1 said:
gratuitous hearsay.

Malcolm wrote:
Merigar was going to lose their nonprofit status as a religious entity if they did not appoint a spiritual head. This is a fact, and not hearsay.

I personally know nothing beyond what I stated. There is little point in guessing at motives, meaning, and so on.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Sunday, December 25th, 2022 at 3:49 AM
Title: Re: Does Phowa practice have an Indian Buddhism root?
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Uh huh. A contemporary of Dangma Lungyal.

Unsupportable claim, there is no textual evidence for this.

stong gzugs said:
Yes, Yumo Mikyo Dorje and Dangma Lungyal were contemporaries. The difference is that the former's teachings can be traced back several generations to earlier known historical figures like Somanatha, whereas the latter was a treasure revealer, so there's no historical sources to backtrack where his teachings come from, aside from the mythical lineage.

Malcolm wrote:
Weak argument, which assumes all Dzogchen texts are treasures. They are not. And below you make a critical error of dating. We will get to that.

Mañjuśrīmitra, Śrī Simha, Vimalmitra, Padmasambhava, and Vairocana are all historical figures. Nubchen Sangye Yeshe (844-95?) certainly did not invent the Dzogchen texts he cites in his Lamp for the Eye of Samādhi. Here is a summary of his life and works:

https://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/collections/journals/ret/pdf/ret_29_01.pdf

Also Padmasambhava certainly commented on the nine yānas as modes, nayas, in his commentary on the 13th chapter of the Guhyagarbha Tantra, which is an Indian text.

https://tibetanclassics.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Garland-of-Views.pdf

https://earlytibet.com/2007/08/21/the-nine-vehicles-of-the-nyingma-new-sources/

Such texts as the Cuckoo of Vidyā, Great Space of Vajrasattva, the Contemplation of Bodhicitta, all can be traced to the 8th century and Bagor Vairocana.

And you keep on ignoring klong sde. This is also a system in which postures and gazes are used, that are not at all like the positions used in togal. It is an oral lineage, not a terma systems, which also has historical masters like https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies/view/Dzeng-Dharmabhodhi/6962 (1052-1168), also a contemporary of Mikyo Dorje, etc., texts, and a long history, and also goes back to Śrī Simha. Dharmabodhi received klong de when he was 35, so in the year 1087.


stong gzugs said:
To that end, I'm not well-versed on the latest research, but as far as I know from Germano's work, there is no clear evidence that any independent tradition called Dzogchen or Atiyoga existed outside of Tibet, and there is certainly no evidence that tögal (or its postures) were ever practiced in India.

Malcolm wrote:
There was no independent system in India called lam 'bras, nor was there an independent system called na ro chos drug. There were several versions of saḍaṅgayoga, however. But that is really irrelevant. There was also not system in India called prasanga either.

But there is 1) a controversy over a master named Śrī Siṃha views about the creation raised by Manjūśrīkīrti in India; 2) proof of the existence of two of his students, Vimalamitra and Vairocana, plus works authored by him in the bstan 'gyur, for example, a commentary on the Heart Sūtra ,among many other texts, such as the nyāyasiddhāloka. Further, there is no doubt his teacher and Garab Dorje actually lived.

stong gzugs said:
The oral tradition of Yumo Mikyo Dorje described by Tāranātha thus provides the best evidence we have, to my knowledge, that these "tögal postures" can even be traced back to India, even if they are originally Kālacakra postures. Now you're correct that we don't have texts from Yumo that mention the postures. But Yumo, like his intellectual successor Dölpopa, wasn't a big fan of dzogchen. So the idea that he'd borrow the practices from there seems unlikely.

Malcolm wrote:
You are excluding the possibility post Dolpopa borrowing. Why? That's quite arbitrary, especially when we have a text of certain mid 11th century provenance (roughly 1040) which explicitly names these postures. How can you justify that as being anything other than pure bias? The old, "My father's cup is the best"?

stong gzugs said:
But there's more. The only time Yumo even mentions dzogchen, is in his Brilliant Lamp of Mahāmudrā, and he attributes to it an inanimate emptiness, which might imply that the visual practices of the instruction series weren't established at that point, as clearly the instruction series isn't an inanimate emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:
Or he was never exposed to any Dzogchen teachings and just relied on early gsar ma misrepresentations

From Yumo's Brilliant Lamp of Mahāmudrā said:
There are also some who maintain, Mahāmudrā is the Svātantrika Madhyamaka’s clearing away of appearances or the Prāsaṅgika’s Collection of Reasoning, or the vacuous view of emptiness of the Dzogchen, which is a view of inanimate emptiness, or the emptiness of annihilation. They think these approaches are more profound than the tantra vehicles that teach mahāmudrā as luminosity. If you think mahāmudrā is like that, it is not.

Malcolm wrote:
You do realize that you just placed Yumo squarely in the late-eleventh-early 12th century, right? Hatchell dates his birth as 1038 ( https://www.thlib.org/encyclopedias/literary/pdf/hatchell-yumo-mikyo-dorje.pdf ). But this is unlikely. Why? The person who introduced the terms prasanga and svatantra as Madhyamaka categories was Patshab Nyima Drag (b. 1055). Patsab returned to Tibet in 1101.( https://www.academia.edu/87233424/Introductory_Remarks_on_Pa_Tshab_Nyi_Ma_Grags_S_Commentary_of_the_M%C5%ABlamadhyamakak%C4%81rik%C4%81 ). This terminology that he introduced will absolutely date any text written that mentions these terms after 1101, considerably later.

If we accept Hatchell's dates, Yumo passed away in 1118. It seems unlikely he would have been aware of the new fangled Madhyamaka. There is also considerable doubt about Somanatha's dates. Kalacakra itself was not completed until the period between 1025-1040. Newman points out that Somanātha and Dro were principally active in the third quarter of the eleventh century; 1050-1075. This is well after Dangma came into possession of the 17 tantras, etc. So, basically, your chronology does not add up.


From Yumo's Brilliant Lamp of Mahāmudrā said:
So Yumo was obsessed with visual experience in meditation, was familiar with Dzogchen, and doesn't see Dzogchen as having a visual practice, but an inanimate emptiness. All this is evidence that Kālacakra visual practices predate those of Dzogchen, likely including the tögal postures.

Malcolm wrote:
No, as above, this is a nothing burger. Yumo appears to be familiar with the word "dzogchen," and that's about it.

From Yumo's Brilliant Lamp of Mahāmudrā said:
When I get a chance, I'll go through the earliest Kālacakra sadangayoga commentaries more closely see if I find references to the postures there. (That is, unless you've already looked through them and can say that they're not there.

Malcolm wrote:
I looked in Lama Dampa, not there.

From Yumo's Brilliant Lamp of Mahāmudrā said:
Further, given that Tāranātha is the closest thing Tibet has ever had to a serious historian, I therefore wouldn't take that possibility too seriously.

Malcolm wrote:
Nonsense. You are totally ignoring Jamgon Amyezhab.

From Yumo's Brilliant Lamp of Mahāmudrā said:
Plus, as you were so kind to look into, he is correct about their presence in Kunpang Thukje Tsondru's practice manual, so he's 1 for 1 in terms of things we can historically validate. I don't know why he'd be mistaken about Yumo's teaching. The teaching has been passed on continuously within Jonang.

Malcolm wrote:
Not present the manual I looked at. But I do not have access to dbu chen versions of Kunpang's other texts.

From Yumo's Brilliant Lamp of Mahāmudrā said:
Kongtrul does not see these as mind, but as ye shes.

Malcolm wrote:
ok. Generally, this is rejected in the Nyingma tradition.

Kongrul said:
The ten signs (rtags bcu), specifically related to the sixfold yoga of the Kalachakra tantra, are empty images (stong gzugs) to be meditated upon for the actualization of the vajra body. These empty images are not produced by thoughts and are extremely clear. They are the manifestation of pristine awareness, free from subject-object dualism. They resemble space in that they are devoid of mental constructs, beyond existent and non-existent phenomena. They are the luminous clarity nature of one’s own mind and also the totality of the dimensions of awakening.

Malcolm wrote:
These ten signs occur also in Lamdre, and are specifically mentioned by Sachen:
The arising of the visual appearance categorized under heat has five signs, and there are also secondary signs, for a total of ten. First, under the influence of the right nostril, there is smoke, mirage, fireflies, butter lamps, and cloudless space.The signs categorized by the left nostril are darkness, rainbow, lightning, moonbeams, and sunbeams.
They are also mentioned by Rongzom in his presentation of the six yogas in connection with vase retention, in the section on how people who need to approach Dzogchen indirectly can practice.

Kongrul said:
So it seems like we can set some provisional correspondences between the dzogchen visions and the six yoga limbs? If I'm reading this correctly, there is some correspondence between the dzogchen first vision and the first/second yogas of Kālacakra (where the initial visions of smoke)

Malcolm wrote:
No, these are signs of mind. Not pristine consciousness. They are signs which come from controlling the karma vāyus through prāṇāyama, from a Dzogchen point of view. The direct perception of dharmatā does not depend on controlling the vāyu at all.

Kongrul said:
Can you offer any some clarity on how the fourth vision of Dzogchen links up with Kālacakra? I've often heard of it as the dissolution of all visions into darkness

Malcolm wrote:
The fourth vision is the exhaustion only of all obscurations. From a Dzogchen point of view, the appearance of five lights is a result of the contamination of the potential of vidyā with karmavāyus. But one does not have to do thogal to exhaust those. Trekcho does the visions in reverse.

Kongrul said:
Tāranātha's point is that tögal is about lhundrup and trekchö is about kadak; this is attempting to fuse together two different principles.

Malcolm wrote:
They are not two different principles. Trekcho concerns the basis. Thogal concerns the path. Thogal isn't necessary, and most people practice it primarily to become familiar with the experience of the bardo of dharmatā. There is no practice for attaining buddhahood in the bardo in Kalacakra, as far as I know. There is no practice for avoiding the bardo of the six realms if one misses the luminosity at the moment of death, as far as I know. Dzogchen has methods for buddhahood in this life, the moment of death, the bardo of dharmatā (where most Dzogchen practitioners attain awakening), and through shutting the door of the womb by attaining birth in the natural nirmāṇakāya buddhafields.

If people become attached to lhun grub through thinking the visions are real or ultimate, they will block their practice. But it also because gzhan stong falls into the error of asserting the basis is only lhun grub, not the union of ka dag and lhun grup, aka, ka dag chen po.
I think this is getting to the crux of the difference! "Purity" in dzogchen is, in essence if I understand it correctly, just inherent emptiness as a non-affirming negation.
Emptiness, in Dzogchen, is freedom from all extremes. The Sound Tantra commentary states:

As such, this Great Perfection is superior to other vehicles. It is not incomplete, and since there is no other vehicle higher than this, it is called great. That has never arisen from the beginning. Since it has never arisen, it does not persist in a present arising. Since it does not persist, cannot possibly perish in the end, thus it is called a. As such, it is impossible to shift out of the Great Perfection.  Since one has already been liberated, there is no reason for liberation to be repeated. {310} Since that is self-liberation, there is no antidote. Since that is liberation merely by being seen, the present consciousness vanishes by merely seeing liberation through recognition. Since one is liberated by resting on that, one is beyond effort. When one is liberated, one is like a garuda chick hatching from the egg. Since there is nothing to transform because one is liberated through key points, it is called ti. Completely perfect and inclusive, one attains buddhahood without being lost in the universe and beings because of depending on the intimate instruction which reverses the direction of samsāra and nirvāṇa. Since samsāra and nirvāṇa are reversed, all phenomena arise as dharmatā. 

As such, total perfection free from extremes is even superior to the Great Perfection, called “freedom from the four proliferations.” Free from the extreme of existing, emptiness transcends identification. Free from the extreme of not existing, the circle of the luminosity of one’s vidyā transcends the extreme of annihilation. Freedom from both [existing and not existing] transcends grasping the extremes of permanence and annihilation. Freedom from neither [existing nor not existing] lacks bias and falling into extremes. Likewise, because of being free from all extremes, such as appearance, nonappearance, both, and neither, clarity, obscuration, and both of those extremes, being, nonbeing, and so on, no extreme at all is fallen into, and further, there is freedom in total perfection without abandoning the principle of freedom [from the four proliferations]. Because of being free as self-originated, no effort is required. Because of being free as intrinsically perfect there is nothing to negate or prove. Because of being free in self-liberation there is no antidote, and because of purity in intrinsic purity, there is original purity. Because of being free in a self-appearance there is no need to search for dharmatā. Because of being free in self-arising, activities are transcended. 

As such, because of having always been free, there is no reason for a repeated liberation. Because of being free by nature, do not look at the extreme of before and the extreme of after. {311} Because of being totally perfect, there is no need to abandon anything. All [dualities] such as appearance and emptiness, permanence and annihilation, samsāra and nirvāṇa, and so on, do not transcend dharmatā. That being the case, directly perceived dharmatā manifesting to directly to oneself through the key point of total perfection is called “liberating samsāra and nirvāṇa at the same time.”.

Given that I don't know any other historical teachers who have really put into words how the world appears upon enlightenment
Longchenpa's commentary to chapter 12 and 13 of the Chos dbyings mdzod.

BTW, I won't responding to this thread. It is too time consuming.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 24th, 2022 at 11:22 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi’s back
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Merigar was in danger of losing their religious non-profit profit status without a formal spiritual guide.

Tata1 said:
You mean by italian law?

Malcolm wrote:
Yes.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 24th, 2022 at 10:28 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi’s back
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Merigar was in danger of losing their religious non-profit profit status without a formal spiritual guide.

jet.urgyen said:
You mean this ain't genuine?

Malcolm wrote:
I mean just what I said. It remains to be seen if this is simply administrative or something else.


Author: Malcolm
Date: Saturday, December 24th, 2022 at 9:29 PM
Title: Re: Yeshi’s back
Content:
Malcolm wrote:
Merigar was in danger of losing their religious non-profit profit status without a formal spiritual guide.


